One of my core beliefs about mating is that the sexual double standard reflects the biological differences between the sexes. Generally speaking, men prefer women with less sexual experience than they have and women prefer men with more sexual experience than they have (Buss, The Evolution of Desire). While it’s true that many women today seek to shed the encumbrance of their virginity, we all know that the aging male virgin is an object of cultural ridicule. In today’s sexual marketplace, many women will ruthlessly disqualify a man for a perceived lack of sexual experience or finesse. (Cads will do the same to female virgins, but that reflects their short-term mating priorities rather than long-term preference.) Today we’ve reached a point where there are more male virgins than female virgins in college (43% vs. 37%), reflecting the increasing divide between the minority of men who have sexual options and the rest.
I’ve stated before that my interest in sex (and who’s having it) is a strategic one. I’m not concerned with moral questions around casual sex. Indeed, I do not believe that casual sex is immoral. My opposition to casual sex is rooted in the belief that it is a risky strategy for women who wish to ultimately settle with a life partner. This is not to say that promiscuous women will be unable to marry, just that promiscuity limits one’s options by dramatically shrinking the pool of potentially interested partners. There is also some evidence that the prior number of sexual partners, as well as the age at which women lose their virginity, are risk factors for divorce. (More about male promiscuity in a bit.)
Ultimately, my position re casual sex means that there will be times when I will applaud a male for having gotten laid, while withholding approval from a female for the same behavior. This is simply a reflection of my position that men and women experience sex differently, and judge one another accordingly. It is a double standard, one that’s built in, and 40+ years of feminism’s trying to “reeducate” men and women has been an unmitigated failure. I believe that it’s possible, though by no means guaranteed, that a man may profit from a casual sexual encounter. I believe it’s also possible, though much less likely, that a woman may benefit from a casual sexual encounter.
At the same time, I believe that people should be held accountable for their own choices. Basically, “you break it, you own it.” Both sexes have full sexual agency today, and we are seeing that play out in an increasingly dysfunctional sexual marketplace. We should not be in the business of trying to protect either sex from themselves. I do not hold men responsible for the emotional toll on a woman who readily engages in casual sex with them (provided they have not engaged in deceit.) Nor do I hold women responsible for the emotional toll on a man who falls for a woman who is clearly averse to commitment. Again, it is a strategic matter – we should avoid those people who we can reasonably judge as being unwilling to give us what we want.
Eric Barker at Barking Up the Wrong Tree recently shared a study that looks at how men and women respond after having sex with a person for the first time:
This article develops the Affective Ship Hypothesis, which suggests that women experience positive affective shifts following first-time intercourse as a means to facilitate a longer-term, more committed relationship. The hypothesis predicts a negative affective shift in men who pursue a short-term mating strategy; this shift is hypothesized to function to curtail commitment by motivating the man to terminate the relationship.
In two separate studies, researchers found that “men with high numbers of sex partners, but not men with low numbers of partners, experienced a decrease in their partner’s physical and sexual attractiveness following first-time sexual intercourse. In contrast, women, more than men, experienced increases in feelings of love and commitment following first-time sex.”
In other words, a manwhore will like you less after having sex with you, while a less sexually experienced man will like you more.
This has clear implications for women: there is indeed a boomerang effect in male promiscuity. Preselection is not endlessly beneficial as an indicator of mating fitness. We know that male promiscuity is a risk factor for divorce, but it also means that a man with a high number of past sexual partners begins to tire of you immediately after having sex with you.
While women often prefer men who have sexual options, and consequently some sexual experience, they would do well do avoid promiscuous men.
{ 1418 comments… read them below or add one }
1 2 3 … 10 »
What are some strategies for women to weed out men who have had many partners? How can you tell?
Here’s a list of some more double standards you might like to consider the next time you decide to broach the topic:
http://9gag.com/gag/1574954
“Ultimately, my position re casual sex means that there will be times when I will applaud a male for having gotten laid, while withholding approval from a female for the same behavior. This is simply a reflection of my position that men and women experience sex differently, and judge one another accordingly. It is a double standard, one that’s built in, and 40+ years of feminism’s trying to “reeducate” men and women has been an unmitigated failure.”
That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.
Problem is women are not hard wired but chemically altered via birth control to stave off becoming pregnant. And the end result, fertility drugs to try and get pregnant and a whole lotta kids with birth defects.
GudEnuf – you said: “That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.”
Please explain. I don’t see this, but it is probably my age.
Susan – Although the comic is a little funny, I’ve always found that particular angle of the “double standard” to be repugnant. I have a daughter and a son, and I have never treated how I discuss sexuality with them differently. I would never consider telling my daughter to remain chaste while telling my son to sow his “wild oats”. I’ve told them both that in the end, who they choose to be intimate with may very well help or hurt them in the long run, and that they should be very selective on who they choose to share themselves with.
That being said, I’ve said the same thing about who they choose to be friends with as well. Who you associate with says a lot about you as a person. I believe the people (or maybe what TYPE of people) they choose to have sex with will do the same.
Dang it, the comment I posted last night would have been perfect for this blog post today. Ah well.
So men who are less sexually experienced like you more? Interesting. Society tends to shun less experienced or virgin males? Even more interesting. I wonder what these men are doing during the time they are being shunned. Im assuming this is most likely to happen during the late teen’s early to mid 20′s? Seems like these men would be forced to focus on school and their career instead of chasing women. If no one else wants one, I’ll take him.
I’m reminded of the joke Newman tells in the opening of “The Verdict”.
Man tells his friends “There’s a new bar in town where for $20 they give you 3 beers, a meal, and then take you in the back room and get you laid.”
Friend : “You’re saying there’s a bar where for $20 they give you 3 beers, a meal, and then take you in the back room and get you laid? When did you go there?”
Man: ” I didn’t, but my sister went there last night.”
@Helen
I would say just ask outright. Let him know that you don’t have casual sex nor do you care to be with someone who has had a lot of it.( I like to give people a one time pass if they’ve done it because everyone was young once and trying things out to see if you like them is a part of going up.) Anyway, he has three options:
1. Tell the truth
2.Lie
3. Say “Why does it matter?”
In either case you can choose how to react. You can’t know whether he is telling the truth or lying but on thing I know is that lies ALWAYS come back to bite people. Especially in my case. If you tell me something, I will NOT forget it. So when one of your friends casually mentions it 8 months later you bet there will be some fire for your ass. Like they said for women, eventually the truth will come out. If there is an insinuation I will notice it, wait until Ive collected enough proof, bring it up, and shut you down.
If someone wants to play the “but why does it matter” or “none of your business” game, then Im out the door. I don’t play games with people. Its find if it doesn’t matter to that person, but they don’t get to chose what is important to me. Its not so much the number, but the story behind it. There is ALWAYS a story behind it. Always.
Charm,
I like you. You’ve got a good head on your shoulders.
@ Charm
I was fat in my 20′s but I’m also blue collar. Two things not wanted in today’s society. Yet at 40, I been out of work for 6 months and still live in comfort. You figure it out.
While women continue to shun men SO THEY CAN HAVE THEIR FUN, they are also shunning stable futures and in fact ensuring they are isolated. At my age, I don’t give women that are even close to my age range the time of day. I am simply not attracted to them especially when women who are much younger respond to my “attitude” that’s backed up by “life experience”. And believe me when I say, there are a lot of miserable, older women who would kill to have a companion.
I love the ‘double standards’ discussion….
One Wednesday morning I came to suspect that she was cheating on me. I became reasonably certain of this by Thursday afternoon, and I kicked her out of my life forevermore by Thursday evening, no further questions asked.
The next ‘she’ came to suspect that I was cheating on her (I wasn’t, and never would, but that’s beside the point). She insisted that henceforth I wear a condom.
I’ll add to the above that I’ve never had any interest in a serious, intimate relationship with a promiscuous woman, nor have I had any interest in a serious relationship with a promiscuous man.
As for the cartoon at the top (hyperbole aside), it could very well be that the father has one standard — a standard of not wanting harm to come to his children — and that standard manifests itself in advising the daughter not to do things which may hurt her in the long run.
Anyhoo….anytime I read someone griping about double standards I usually find that the person is either a) incapable of distinguishing ‘double standards’ from different people having different standards about different things; or b) a person of poor character who wants other people to lower their standards so their poor character isn’t so obvious.
Sue,
Why don’t your daughter and your focus group girls comment on your blog? You’d think that since they’re the intended audience, they’d be a bit more vocal….
@ Jesus
Lol. Thanks.
@Jim
I am currently in my final year of college and am trying to lose about 50 pounds. I’ve been on the american diet way too long and now its time to move to a different tune, plus I know my chances for finding a mate will increase if Im slimmer plus my fertility will better if Im not carrying around excess weight. So, as of right now I too am just focusing on the future and not dating. I dont plan on getting married until my later 20′s but I can plan ahead, no?
I think that a lot of women my age really do think they have forever to settle down, hell I might respect them more if they had a timeline set up like I do. I feel like women wake up one day, at like 28 and realize they want a husband and kids. But in no way have they planned for it. They don’t even know where to start. Guess 10 straight years of partying will do that to your brain cells.
There is nothing more sexy to me than stability. You mean to tell me you already have an IRA/a stable job/and savings for a house? At 30? Well…hello there. LOL. I feel like women wake up and realize that these men are where it is at but they think stability=boring when it reality stability allows for you to have more fun because all your ducks are in a row and you don’t have to worry about things as much. I guess it boils down to whether you want benefit now for 5 mins or later for 5 years.
Good for you for not dating the women near your age range. I think people have got it right when they say that women hit 30 and realize that they aren’t as “hot” as they thought they were. Then they get desperate and start seeking out men like you. Shun them. Shun them. Lol. Thats what they get.
@jesus baloney
Agreed. I’ve always wondered that. Aunt sue?
“Indeed, I do not believe that casual sex is immoral.”
Which makes your “advice” highly suspect.
That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.
This time it’s different… you know, we’ve heard that one a few times before. That’s an absolutely stupid statement, completely devoid of evidence and easily disproved.
What are some strategies for women to weed out men who have had many partners? How can you tell?
Ask. If he’s smoothly evasive and doesn’t actually mention any quantity while changing the subject or flipping the frame onto you, he’s a player. If he’s not that experienced, he’ll be awkward and overly explanatory, going into weird details about this and that girlfriend. In general, if you’re left feeling halfway embarrassed for the guy, you’re safe. If you find yourself realizing half an hour later that you never got an actual answer, you’re screwed. So to speak.
Perhaps the best example of this sort of non-answer was when Charles and Diana were asked if they were in love. She said: “Of course!” He said: “What is love?” and smoothly deflected the interviewer. If you get a “what is love” sort of philosophical answer, you’re probably in over your head. If you’re really unlucky, you’ll run into a Dark Gamer who will pull a Yohami on you. “Love love love, let’s bring this dream home.” Nothing you can do about that.
@Charm 6
Good call. But again, if you follow trends like in Japan, most of these men who are left to their own devices while the women go off to play on the jackhammer playground carousel, these guys lose any drive to want to become a high earner and provider mentality. They don’t want to provide for anyone but themselves, and living alone on the cheap is stress free compared to racking up debt for a house full of shit you dont want and no room to call your own (save for the garage), and credit debt galore, etc…
The only ones of these guys that are incel invisables that do end up going hard to become high earners more often than not will end up using it as a faux dark game crutch, ala ‘ill make it big and have women fawning over me for my cash and i can replace them with younger versions every year or so, like trading up a car.’
Not to beat a dead horse, i just don’t think women understand just how deep the traumatic damage of being relegated to the sidelines for the entirety of a mans sexual peak really is. I still haven’t healed from that fully, and i’ve had 5+ years and 2.5 of those happily married, and it still haunts me as tho it were yesterday.
Mike,
+1. I said the same thing to Jhane yesterday. Very often, men who are marginalized or “sidelined”, feeling lonely, are starving men. Starving men in a land of plenty develop real emotional wounds after a long enough time.
@ Susan,
when you say women often prefer more sexually experienced partners, do you mean men with a high number, a lot of casual sex or simply a lot of sex in total? I’m asking because men in several long term relationships have often had more sex than those sleeping around, even if the players happen to be good with girls, you usually don’t get 4-5 new ones per week.
The problem for me with guys & sexual experience is that the only guarantee you can get is negative. If a guy is a virgin or has other tells such as a selfish personality or bad ways of touching you, you can be pretty guaranteed the sex won’t be great. But there is no guarantee it will be good – an experienced and sexual guy may be crap as well. In fact, a guy who’s an absolute dog is often a jackhammer. It’s hard to strike gold in this area – which is why many girls are hesitant and choosy with sex partners (more than moral reasons I might add! Where I’m from it’s pretty free and guys don’t care so much about a girl’s experience).
Anna,
Where are you from? Because while most guys I know won’t care about your experience if they’re in it for the sex, just about all the guys I know of care about experience when it comes to relationships.
Every man wants a slut, he just wants her to be HIS slut.
Men should be more concerned about the impact the last Alpha a woman banged had on her than the number of men she’s had sex with in total.
@Roger
Is his answer meant to be both sarcastic and throw her off? If so, it wouldn’t work on me. I’d stare at him blankly until he realized I wasn’t joking. Trying to throw me off is like trying to shoo a fly from fresh dog shit. It ain’t happenin’.
@Mike
Ive heard about Japan. Its a shame. Though, I’d hope that men didn’t allow womens behavior to fully dictate their happiness in life. Like right now, I am not the pick of any litter. Men in their early 20′s more often than not act like boys, so Im not a fan either way. I could get jaded by it, but I don’t. I know that in the future, when people grow up, they will be looking to settle down with someone like me. That also means that I can be more selective about who I choose.
Did you not think of this when you were on the sidelines? I can’t say I know how men feel, because Im not a man but I do think that there are men and women who go unnoticed for long periods of time for whatever reason. It can be hard to take, but I like to put my mind over matter. Though, I will say that as a woman I don’t face the out right rejection because men typically have to approach the girls so *that* is probably a huge ego crusher. But on the bright-ish side, when women are looking to get off said carousel men like you can next the shit out of them until you find the girl that you want. Pay back is a bitch, no? Lol.
I hope American men don’t just give up. That would be sad. I’d be disappointed.
Rollo,
I don’t believe in Alphas. But I do have a problem with a woman who has slept with an asshole.
@ Jesus,
I’m Norwegian. I’m not saying it’s completely irrelevant, I’m just saying that I think the tolerance level is a lot higher. I know several girls with HIGH numbers who have bagged great guys. A friend of mine used to sleep around Oslo like crazy, she is today 26 and has never had a relationship before, yet met a great guy and is getting married. They have perhaps not discussed it all, but he is from the same law school so he’s bound to have a clue. She is a pretty girl and from a good family, so she’s not a bad match apart from the past. I suppose he’s just in love.
I’ve seen more cases like these, yet not so much in other countries as the really attractive girls tend to couple up before that age (France is liberal but French girls are still terrified of being seen as sluts). I totally get how a man can be bothered by a woman’s past and I would prefer a guy not to have slept with half the town, which is why I watch out for myself and keep my number somewhat down. But I know for all Scandinavian countries the girls are used to different conditions.
Interesting. Do you foresee the former-slut-friend that’s engaged having a happy marriage?
@Jim
Actually, women on the Pill prefer lower testosterone men, less dominant and aggressive men, and men with less masculine facial features. That’s because they don’t get a monthly surge of testosterone without ovulation, which is the only time per month women prefer the most dominant men. Of course, that too cuts both ways. Women are more likely to cheat when they ovulate.
@ Helen
Also, make sure you listen to how he talks about the women he has been involved with. If every single girl he mentions is described as crazy, evil, or bitchy, I would be suspicious. I could understand 1-2 evil bitchy exes, but all of them being described that way is circumspect.
@ JM
Actually I do. She’s the best friend of a friend of mine and she’s always had a very extroverted personality and slightly immature for her age, and as an introvert, it took me some time to like her. But she has reached the point of being ready to settle down, and I honestly don’t think she will miss her single life. Despite her previous life, she is very traditional with family values and my friend told me she can’t wait to get married and have a baby. To be honest, I think a lot of women are in that position. It is natural for men to want to sleep around and have their fun, and have their first real commitment be when they settle down. Whereas if women do the same, guys see them as likely to cheat, flaky and unloyal. Like I said, I get the way of thinking but I do believe some can miss out on great partners that way. There are limits though – if a woman is 27+ and still sleeping around, that is probably more of a lifestyle than a temporary thing. And I feel the same way about guys 30+.
Anna,
The reason I asked is that I was in a similar situation. I don’t know what you consider a high number, but my ex-fiancee was at 24. Do you know if the man she’s marrying has had a similar past?
I think casual sex is a bit flaky. Not a total deal breaker if it came up in someone’s past, but definitely a strike against her. Also, there’s the fact that usually people who sleep around easily aren’t sleeping with people are great character.
@Rollo 23
Kate Perry
@Ted D
I agree, but unfortunately I think you’re unusual. I have found in my community and in speaking to school groups that mothers and fathers are generally very proud to be parents of a real player (wink wink nudge nudge) and equally adamant that their daughter be chaste. Meanwhile, parents of sons who don’t have a date to the prom are shamed and respond defensively. And if a girl is caught doing something slutty at school, like giving a blowjob on the school bus, she’s likely to be sent to counseling and the parents hang their heads in shame. Trust me, I’ve seen all of this kind of intra-parent competition at the high school level.
I know for all Scandinavian countries the girls are used to different conditions.
I suggest you look at Scandinavian marriage rates before concluding that Scandinavian men are just peachy keen with marrying girls who have racked up significant body counts.
“Only about 60% of Swedish people marry by the time they’re 40, compared to nearly 90% of Americans.”
@Charm 24
No. I did not. All i thought about was.
“Everyone else is having sex, and i am not”
“I must be ugly as f*ck”
“Why do i keep being nice, helpful, courteous, chivalrous, attentive and supportive? They sleep with mental tormentors and emotional recluses and come to me to cry about why they’re not like me”
“My friends continue to rib me about my virginity”
“God just kill me now”
“I’m a f*cking loser”
“If i ever become stinking rich, i’ll never admit to it. First girl that accepts me for me will get a super unexpected bonus.”
“Man i’d kill for some sex right now”
“I’m going to stick to my standards rather than f*ck some diseased whore”
You know you hit rock bottom when your ‘friends’ start sending you links like this in your email. That was about the time i nearly locked myself in the garage and ran the engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwNVE37BGVE
But im feeling much better now.
@ VD
I’m not Swedish but I can definitely see Sweden being a bit different from Norway in that area. However, I don’t think marriage rates indicates how the men feel about sexual promiscuity. The US is quite a religious country whereas Scandinavian countries are extremely secularized. Marriage is still strongly linked to Christianity and moving away from religion is one reason many Norwegians are not so concerned with marriage as many other countries. That doesn’t keep people from spending their lives together, in my mind living together and raising a child is not that different from actually tying the knot. My parents aren’t married (although he’s my stepfather, my mother just hasn’t remarried) and I don’t consider it weird. Anyway point is, I strongly doubt the lower marriage rates is that Scandinavians don’t like their own girls.
@Helen,
Here’s an excerpt from a post I wrote on the topic:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/04/30/hookinguprealities/how-to-make-sure-you-dont-fall-for-a-player/
@Charm
It was your comment and several others that inspired this post. That’s often the way it happens with me, and it’s why I am so grateful for lively comment threads.
Anna, about picking good lovers. I look for a couple of things in women. Number one is probably that I sense some sort of sexuality/sensuality in her eyes. Number two is that I look at how she moves, wether she is present in her body or distant from it. Good “technical” control of and sensual awareness in the body = good in bed, for the most part. THree is how they touch. Four is how they dance. Does she follow well and does she generally dance good. As you are a women a clue for you would be does he seem to have enough ability to dominate and be deceisive in bed.
in my mind living together and raising a child is not that different from actually tying the knot.
That’s the problem, Anna. It’s all in your mind. There is no shortage of scientific studies that show there is a massive difference between living together and raising a child versus tying the knot. And if you want to get anecdotal, I happen to know several unmarried Scandinavian couples, and in each case, they are not married because the guy wants the freedom to walk whenever it suits him. And in most cases, he is unfaithful.
I live in Europe and I can say that in general, men who do not marry the mothers of their children are spectacularly unfaithful to them. It doesn’t even occur to them to do otherwise.
@ Susan,
I love that list. It is so spot on. I find it hilarious with guys who say “you can go down on me if you want”. I’ve never actually had a guy say that to me, but I’ve had one say “where would you like it?”, which pretty much indicates his hopes for the session. Or my favourite (while going down on him): “it’s all for you”. Gee, thanks.
I think Rollo has a very good point about the past alpha lover. I know hte sex lives of a number of female friends quite well and a lot of the previous lovers made zero impact. They were just there at the right time to fullfill a general sense of horniness. The increased risk from a general ability for promiscuity is ONE problem. The likelyhood of someone having overalphaed you is another. Probably bigger problem.
The question is (assuming this wasn’t a relationship situation): did you still go down on him after he said that?
@Jesus
There are a few reasons. One is that my daughter and her friends, both girls and guys, read HUS religiously. But commenting feels very open to them – none of them could keep anonymity for long. Since some of the drama includes these girls and guys, it could get pretty uncomfortable. Actually, if I could ever get two of them to do it, it would be an interesting He Said/She Said. As it is, though, my daughter is constantly fending off queries about whether a particular post is about so-and-so (it’s not). My daughter is particularly sensitive to my using personal details from her life, and no way is she going to provide more on her own.
The second thing is that my groups have dispersed at this point. They graduated from college in 2010 and 2011. Some are in Boston, others have moved away. So our communication is irregular at this point. I am still in very regular touch with some of the women, but several are in serious relationships now and they’re all working full-time. HUS just isn’t bound to have remained a top priority for all these years.
However, of the 10 or so that I still see very regularly, all read the threads pretty thoroughly. When we get together for “stories” they’ll quote Badger or say, “Ugh, that Doug!”
Wudang,
How exactly does one “overalpha” someone in bed?
@ VD
I suppose it’s a matter of different social circles then. I know my share of players but none who refuse to marriage because of it. They’d rather stay single.
Regarding my parents, I consider it pretty much impossible for my stepfather to cheat on my mum, as they spend every possible moment together (he is retired, otherwise he is around the house with me and my sister there). Adding to that, I cannot think of any other man less likely to cheat, but I don’t think you’ll take my word for it, as most girls think that way about their father.
Most couples I know whom are not married when they’re practically living as married, chose so because of tax reasons and unbeneficial legislation. My parents would have a new set of fees if they were married.
I have no doubt men marry more in the US, but why they do so with the unfavourable settlements bitter twists is beyond me.
@Helen
“What are some strategies for women to weed out men who have had many partners? How can you tell?”
A good first clue is if he comes across as reasonably self assured, confident and interesting, and you’re really attracted to him.
@munson
Good one!!!
@ JM
“The question is (assuming this wasn’t a relationship situation): did you still go down on him after he said that?”
Switched to intercourse (as I wanted to finish too). But it was the last time I chose to see him. He later asked why and I didn’t say anything. Perhaps I should have, he might not be aware that girls find it bleh.
Hm. Okay.
@Mike
I thought that bunny was cute, though very sad. Can’t believe people actually teased you about being a virgin. I often find that my perceptions about other people’s reality is often wrong. I might be envious of what other people are doing, but when I look closer they aren’t doing anything envy worthy at all.
For example, I go to a big 10 college in the Midwest, and everyone is big on partying/football/hooking up. When I first got here I felt bad that I didn’t like any of these things and people actually judged me because of it. You know, “You don’t like beer?”, “You don’t live and die by football?”, “You’ve never hooked up before?”
Then, I realized something. There are only a handful of people who actually like partying. Most people just follow the herd because they want to fit in and get the “college experience”. I’ve had numerous people confess to me that they only drink because they don’t want to be standing at a party with no drink in fear that others will judge them. Ive known girls and guys who regret hooking up or admit that theyve never done it. I think their is the air of ambiguity that convinces people of things that aren’t really true. Its like people are too afraid to say what they think out loud. I always discuss things out loud because I find there are people who agree but were scared no one else did.
I’m glad you found someone finally. I find that if I read too many of these types of blogs that I become a little jaded and want to give up on people in general, but then I meet someone who changes my mind again and again.
@ JM.
I didn’t think much about it at the time. Despite this silly attitude he was very good in bed (most guys saying what Susan said are actually selfish). I later did a rerun of small tidbits of sayings and wondered what was up with him. His cocky attitude is rather fake though – when not in bed, he’s nervous.
@Jesus 45
Ask Kate how.
5 Minutes of Alpha
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/five-minutes-of-alpha/
Anna,
It’s cool. The idea of it turns my stomach, but what I think of it personally is irrelevant.
Mike,
I started reading, but got confused because I don’t know what an alpha is. So I stopped.
Pffffffffffffffttttt!!!!!!!!! Hahahaha!!
This just made my day. I can’t believe you continued with him after he said that.
Anna 48
So you still rewarded him sexually? That’s some bad clicker training there girl.
Dog takes a dump on the living room carpet
*click*
Good boy.. here’s you liver treat.
Am i the only one? Maybe the comment ‘Its all for you baby’ was taken in the spirit it was given?
Plus… I’m fortunate enough not to know who Kate Perry is beyond the recognition of her name. And I’d like to keep it that way.
@ JM
The fact that he considered his penis to be sent from God or that he was generous enough to offer it to me?
I can be puzzled by things men say in bed, but honestly, if someone sat down on confronted me with everything I said during sex, I’d blush too.
In short, women, go take care of those male virgins.
@Tom
I’m sure it does for some, and that’s why I wanted to clarify. I have found that because of my general opposition to feminism and promiscuity, I have a good number of readers who are religious. That’s fine – we may be working for the same ends – but our motives are different. I felt the need to clarify this because some readers get quite upset when I write a post about when to have sex while dating, or give some guy a high five for getting with some girl.
Those who disagree with my views are certainly under no obligation to stick around. And of course no one is forced to implement my advice. There is plenty of room for disagreement, but I want readers to know where I stand on this.
No, what turned my stomach was that you fucked him after he said it.
@ JM,
that’s fine, but like I said I’m not one to take sex-outbursts too seriously. And I’m not one for walking out mid-session with a guy I know (unless he’s unpleasant). Just found him a bit of a dork at the time. “I’ll take the other bed tonight because of what you said”. Overreaction imo.
@Charm 50
>I’m glad you found someone finally.
Sorry to tell dear, but i am 2 weeks away from filing divorce papers. 2.5 years of happy marriage ended Jan 2011. I wasn’t good enough for her. :\
@Jesus 54
> I started reading, but got confused because I don’t know what an alpha is. So I stopped.
Lulz. Even if you don’t (highly dubious) if you stuck through the article you’d get the jist of it. Try it again, replace the word alpha with ‘gina-tingler’ and reread.
That’s cool. Like I said, what I think is irrelevant. And I can respect your POV. That story just typifies why I’ve chosen to avoid promiscuous women for relationships.
Yeah, I’m with you Jesus M. I was a bit physically repulsed by that situation. This is exactly why I have NO interest in women that sleep with assholes. I would never be able to look or feel the same way about a woman if I ever found out something like this.
Not trying to be critical of the OP, but I personally would view that as being used and abused. He basically thought of her as a servant to satisfy his needs. NOT the way I want anyone to view the person I love.
@Anna
Women appreciate men that other women want. So if a guy can put across that he has options, that you’re not his sexual lifesaver, it’s often enough. I don’t think women care so much about sexual expertise when they’re seeking a LTR – in my experience, one long weekend in bed is all it takes to learn how to blow a particular person’s mind.
There’s also the clear point at which this surfeit of options can boomerang – and here I think it depends on how men treat those options. Jesus learned this summer that he could have 8 ONSs in a couple of months. At that pace, he could snag 50 women a year. But he has chosen not to, and he has a gf instead. That is the kind of selectivity that women reward. He would be a lot less appealing, for relationship-oriented women, if he’d hit it all 50 times. Many women would say that’s just gross.
Mike,
I know what people THINK alphas are, but I think it’s a stupid way of understanding the world. Plus, like I said, I’d rather not know more about Kate Perry than I already do. As if some pop star skank would be a good representative of women as a whole, anyway.
Anna – I can see that it may have been a “dorkish” slip if he was trying to talk dirty. But if he was in any way serious, he deserved to be booted the hell out, blue balls and all.
At least you should have “accidentally” scraped your teeth.
To me it is a matter of respect. He certainly wasn’t respecting you as a person when he implied that you should feel privileged to such his cock. Then again, many of my casual sex issues revolve around personal respect.
But the fact is that she didn’t think it was a dorkish slip, because she refused to fuck him after that “session”.
@ Ted D,
no he’s not amazing at dirty talk. Or talk in general. He’s trying to be dirty in bed and sweet in life. Other quotes include:
“I don’t really watch porn. I prefer the real thing”.
And when we first met and talked about music (in a serious tone):
“I do listen to hip hop. But I don’t watch the music videos. I don’t like the way they portray women”.
….
It was a charming try though.
Haha! OMG that is unbelievable, what a line! Was he talking about his size, volume of sperm, what?
Well there’s a shortsighted economic policy.
@ Ted D,
Also, the “it’s all for you” is a little bit cute as he’s on the smaller side. As in it’s aalll for you. I’m probably the only one to find that funny.
>> When we get together for “stories” they’ll quote Badger or say, “Ugh, that Doug!”
This made me Lol. I’m kind of worried that your Divorce Law post will bring the Doug + Angry MRA people back… I don’t miss them.
Anna,
See, now the story sounds different. Originally, you took the line to mean that his dick was god’s gift, and now you’re claiming it was some dorky, self-effacing humor. Give the hamster some kibbles and just own up to reality.
Emily,
I’m hoping Sue has nixed the Divorce Law post plans. If the MRA arrives, I’m gone.
Regarding my parents, I consider it pretty much impossible for my stepfather to cheat on my mum, as they spend every possible moment together (he is retired, otherwise he is around the house with me and my sister there). Adding to that, I cannot think of any other man less likely to cheat, but I don’t think you’ll take my word for it, as most girls think that way about their father.
No, I’m quite happy to take your word for it. You’re fortunate to have a good relationship with him, as too many young women in your position don’t. I’m not questioning the anecdotal example of your family at all, merely pointing out that your personal experience of Scandinavian pseudo-marital relations is no more statistically relevant than mine, and therefore is a poor basis from which to draw any substantive conclusions.
BREAKING SCIENTIFIC NEWS!
Sorry to disrupt the discussion but did you see where scientists actuall created “invisiblity”? It was only for a nanosecond, but they did it. Point is if it can be done, it’s commercial application is inevtiable. My first thought was no need for bikinis. Nope-gals you’ll spray this on and your pussy, assline (I think that’s what you’re protecting with a floss-thong) nipples, areolas-all that; “no eyes, guys.”
I know you gals are saying “but we like pretty bikinis, we don’t want nothing.” hey they’ll add flower prints to the invisiblity, plus if you’ve got the kind of body that looks good in one you’ll go with basic black which I’m sure they can do (white too-it’s jsut a reversal of the color emission process).
But one question and, ladies, it’s a sensitive one. Is “camel toe” something a gal promotes, or avoids? Seriously don’t know. My wife was getting into her bathing suit and I saw her start playing with her nipples. I though it was “go” time; turns out she just wanted to rock some “high beams” for her suit. So would if invisible meant no toe,would that be good or bad?
Like I said it’s a sensitive deal. And I’m a sensitive guy-sensitive as a urinal, and almost as discriminating.
@ JM
No, clearly he thought his dick was God’s gift, it was not ironic (what man can be ironic about his own penis size?). But obviously he feels the need to boost his own confidence due to a complex, as is the case with many men in bed. I personally find it funny, but that has nothing to do with it. I wouldn’t say I found it funny, as mocking a guy about his dick is a step too far. Didn’t feel the need to anyway, the sex was good, so what does it matter.
OK, now that could have a totally different meaning. Like, “I know I may not look like much, but whatever I have is yours.” IDK, if a guy said that to me in a relationship, I wouldn’t mind. It might be sorta cute. Like, “You’re the only woman who gets to do this.” If he’s a guy with options, that is a gift.
Munson,
Scientists have been at work on invisibility for years. They’ve been doing it with ultraviolet rays for years with success. The way they do it is to create a “metamaterial” composing of molecules that are smaller than light rays. This allows the light “bend” around the material. The same way that a river will flow around a giant rock. The “cloaked” object refracts rather than reflects light.
Not sure it would work on just a set of tits. You’d probably have to cloak the whole woman. The Taliban would enjoy that.
I find myself in quite a conundrum. I gave my word I would address Marriage 2.0, which I do believe is fair if I am going to promote marriage. On the other hand, I got a ton of emails and comments saying “We don’t like this!” And of course, I didn’t enjoy the battle.
I’m working on a post called Eat Pray Love Divorce, which is not unusual, and I think I’ll come at it from that angle, and the fact that men fearing divorce is the third most common reason men give for delaying or avoiding marriage.
Some of you may be scarce for that discussion, which is fine. In any case, I plan to keep comments on topic and disallow any repetition or vicious attacks.
Anna,
It doesn’t matter. But a woman who can have sex with a cocky guy who thinks his dick is god’s gift to some casual lover… AND think the sex was good…. turns my stomach. Norwegian guys must be wired differently.
@munson
You’re making even less sense than usual right now. As for camel toe, it hurts like hell. With all we have to offer, it’s depressing to think that men want to see that as well
@Susan
Excellent post. As usual, very insightful and data-driven. I forget who it was on your last post (maybe Malia?) who said you weren’t qualified to comment because you weren’t in “the game” anymore, but as someone who absolutely is in the game, you’re way more on point, informed, and wise about it than she is.
This also made me think pretty introspectively, especially the bit about “players” losing interest after having sex. I’ve had to struggle with this with my current GF. I love her company and really enjoy being around her, but purely sexually my desire definitely went down a notch after we’d first had sex, and I began to look more positively at other “options” who I would have “scored” lower than her BEFORE I slept with her. I thought this was purely based on my trip-ups about commitment, but now with this post I think it may have more to do with the last 2.5 years being a constant “on to the next one” mentality. So on a personal note, thanks again for the insight.
@ Susan
““I know I may not look like much, but whatever I have is yours.””
Hah! It’s not just the penis, the entire him is petite. But cute all the same. I know he thought I was way too good-looking for him, so if this little comment was a self-esteem boost, then so be it. I don’t care much if it was to consider himself as “the master” or having me as a servant. The way things were between us, I had the upper hand most of the time. If we changed that in bed, I have no problem with it. I know some people disagree with this, but one has to feel degraded for something to be degrading. If the guy wanting to be dominating in bed equals to degrading, we should ban light spanking and doggy style as well. But then everybody loses!
Anna,
It’s all cool. You just portrayed the comment much differently at first. And, you said, it caused you not to see him again. If you thought the comment merited not having any more sex with him, then… why did you have sex with him?
But I’m coming at it from the angle of a person who does believe that casual sex is wrong… for me. And for anybody I want to involve myself with. So, idk, I guess to me the situation would be off from the start. As in, why are you fucking guys you don’t care enough to see exclusively anyway? And then fucking them still when they’ve said something that you’ve acknowledged made you never want to fuck them again…. except for that one time… which was good.
@Susan #84
Where did I say men wanted to see that?
Read #78.
Not sure this is true. I think that a prostitute degrades herself even if she doesn’t feel degraded. So does a drug user.
…men with high numbers of sex partners, but not men with low numbers of partners, experienced a decrease in their partner’s physical and sexual attractiveness following first-time sexual intercourse.
This was my experience. After blowing my load, I felt compelled to leave and I HATED providing the girl with any sort of emotional intimacy afterwards. I often would give her a little intimacy if I wanted to see her again, but it was usually forced. If after banging a girl, I didn’t feel an instinctual desire to run away, I knew I liked her a great deal more than most girls.
Here’s a list of some more double standards you might like to consider the next time you decide to broach the topic:
http://9gag.com/gag/1574954
Truth.
@ JM
I know you speak from a different standpoint (wait, what did Susan say about 8 ONS during the last summer? that is more than my total, bfs included), but I can give a quick clue:
- I started seeing him at 18 (lost my virginity 1 year before, long wait), liked him, he lived in a different country, so never considered anything serious with him
- sex was great and as I wasn’t seeing anyone else, saw him when I had the time
- always had the passion and liking him, but started feeling something more.
- decided I wanted someone to be with, realized that wasn’t him (from a combination of things, arrogant bed behavior being contributory).
@Mike
That sucks. I always want to believe the best in people. Im still young, and have be disappointed by people a lot but I find I still want to believe the best in them. I hope you don’t let your divorce screw with your happiness from this point on. Just hearing about divorce makes me want to never get married.
charm:
“Trying to throw me off is like trying to shoo a fly from fresh dog shit. It ain’t happening’.”
If I may so you have not picked the most flattering of comparisons there but I applaud the forcefulness of your views!
Gudenuf:
“That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.”
Yes- I completely agree with you there
@Charm
We learned, worked, and tried to improve ourselves. Often under the premise that we weren’t good enough to attract a woman, and had to do better. That it was our fault. Guess what? Not true.
Hello, thanks for but no thanks. I worked for these assets; no one’s taking them away. Bye now.
More of us are giving up daily. It IS sad. But frankly, your disappointment no longer concerns us at all.
@Mike
Nailed it. Now imagine if you didn’t have those 5 years. (Congrats, by the way.)
@ JM,
yes but drug use is something you do to yourself and the entire shame is brought on by you. If someone says something to you, is it always up to them if it is degrading? If a friend of yours say something insulting to you when drunk or otherwise, and you find it just silly, doesn’t care and shrug, can he say later that he humiliated you? Or does one need to bring a panel of people to decide, if many enough say that you have reason to be ashamed, you are sentenced to be ashamed?
I agree this is different from situation to situation, but I recall a friend of mine saying that her bf loved ejaculating on her and she did so because he loved it and “the juice is holy to him but about as sacred as porridge to me”.
@munson
You didn’t, my mistake. Re the camel toe, that’s a sign that things are too tight. We’ve all rocked a pair of jeans that way at one time or another, and I can tell you it can take several days to recover…poor bean.
Yes, 8 ONSs. Stu(pi)d, right?
Kidding. Yea, I went through some stuff this summer a while after my fiancee and I split. It was a mistake.
Like I said about casual sex, it’s not a deal breaker to me. As long as someone’s decided that it’s not right for them. Though, you know, a huge number would be seriously off-putting.
I just don’t get the bit about fucking someone who acts like an asshole. The way you portrayed things at first, this was the comment of an asshole. So, if that in fact was the case, and you fucked him anyway, then…. you know, blech. But if not, then whatever…
tvmunsen
I have been reliably by certain men that camel-toe is ‘hot’
guys are weird
Idk. The juice being holy to your friend’s boyfriend sounds… well, if not pretty cocky, then just flat out bizarre. Probably he was degrading her in his mind. Maybe not though. My guess is that if he had a thing for it, then it was probably in her face. Sounds like Rivelino.
If someone says something to you, it’s always up to you if it’s degrading. You either allow them to degrade you or you don’t. But, if someone says something that you think he intends to be degrading, and then you climb on his dick and fuck him immediately following…. then, yea, you’ve allowed yourself to be degraded.
Anna—
There’s a lot of social pressure to marry at least among professionals and probably especially in big businesses in the US. Though that doesn’t really apply once you’ve been divorced. Then co-habiting with a woman doesn’t raise many eyebrows. Girl’s family is likely to try to pressure her/you though.
Dum dum dum….. Doug’s back.
@ JM
I never said he was an asshole, but I thought he had the potential to be a bit of a dork.
In the heat of the moment I considered it a regular sexual outburst. Later on I thought it was simply silly. Much later on, I decided not seeing him again, mainly because he wasn’t the bf I was looking for. That is about as simple as I can put it. I considered him interested enough, nice enough and sexy enough to share a bed with, and I tend to finish what I started. Could say it was a mistake, but honestly I really don’t regret any sex I’ve had.
I suppose this would all be easier if people weren’t in such a lively and unorganized mood when having sex. If when a girl went “spank me!”, you’d stop and think, “what did she mean by that?”.
Well hey at least I haven’t had anonymous sex with 8 people
If your new GF’s previous lover left a lasting dominant Alpha impression, one previous lay is enough. If you’re the first real Alpha she’s banged after a string of 12 Beta schlubs, you may as well be the guy who took her virginity. It’s not a numbers game, it’s an Alpha game.
Charm—
Guys get teased if they exit high school a virgin; they definitely will if they exist their freshman year in college that way, and few would probably admit it.
“I know some people disagree with this, but one has to feel degraded for something to be degrading.
Not sure this is true. I think that a prostitute degrades herself even if she doesn’t feel degraded. So does a drug user.”
Yeah, saying that something is only degrading if the subject thinks it is sounds a lot like moral relativism to me. I believe some things are degrading regardless of how the people involved feel. It is a personal decision obviously, as only *I* can know what *I* believe is degrading.
So to me, yes a prostitute is degrading herself, as is a stripper, porn start, etc. A woman that allows herself to be used for a man’s pleasure only, even if she WANTS it, is still degrading herself. A guy that makes it his goal to bang as many women as possible regardless of quality or any other emotional connection is degrading himself. I can say the same for heavy drug use, heavy drinking, whatever. In short, if you are acting in ways that ONLY satisfy the physical needs without a higher purpose (in terms of sex/drug use/etc), there is a damn good chance it is degrading. Of course there are widely varying degrees of relevance here. And again, its a very personal list.
And that is pretty close to the root of why women that have sex with asshole repel me. In that act, they chose to degrade themselves. And if they think so little of themselves, how will they ever respect me?
Actually, it was only anonymous with 4. Another girl I knew from a while back. And the other three weren’t one nighters. But they were casual.
So, point taken.
@ JM
I didn’t climb on his dick after a comment I thought was degrading. It was mentioned regarding a sample of quotes Susan mentioned being typical of players or guys who are too into themselves. Perhaps players have more of a degrading personality, I don’t know. But I thought he was silly for being so into his tiny dick and consider it sacred. If he had said something “classically” degrading like “shut up bitch” things would of course be different. Sure, maybe he meant it degrading and I was a total fool and didn’t realize. Too bad his demeaning behavior didn’t get through OR I was degraded without my knowledge. I really don’t care.
Jess – “Gudenuf:
“That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.”
Yes- I completely agree with you there”
Can you elaborate? I’m sure GE will later, but I’d like to know how you think this is changing? Again, in my circle of people (and yes I have acknowledged many times it IS a small circle) I don’t know of one single guy that is anything less that neutral in regards to a woman’s past partner count, and most are pretty put off by high numbers. And yes, at least one of them could be labelled a hypocrite as his number is pretty up there. That doesn’t change his opinion in the least, even when I pointed it out by the way…
Rollo,
So then what, you would say that Alpha can be defined by how a woman responds to you? If a woman feels like you had a certain level of dominance in the sack, then that makes you Alpha?
I’m not sure I’m understanding you.
I’m not trying to put you down, Anna. You don’t have to get defensive. If you didn’t find the comment degrading, then no, I would say you didn’t degrade yourself (beyond the fact of having had casual sex, of course… which I’m guilt of as well).
And Rollo,
Do you follow Kate Perry? Isn’t she some, like, idk, teeny-bopper idol?
“Guys get teased if they exit high school a virgin; they definitely will if they exist their freshman year in college that way, and few would probably admit it.”
Straight up, I was getting slack from some of my male peers at 16 for still being a virgin. Although before my 17th birthday I took care of that issue, one of my closest friends was a virgin until he was 20, and he took shit ALL the time from other guys. Not me, I thought they were all assholes and suggested he should stick to his guns. He didn’t, got some girl knocked up, and made a mess of his life for about 5 years. We lost touch, but I think he finally pulled it together and got back on track.
The female commenter Hitori on fastseduction.com says that men with little ability to get sex seek tension release while men with easy access to sex seek tension buildup as they already can get their tension released. That fits with the science here. So when a man with few partners gets sex it triggers more emotions and bonding in him because sex per se is so valuable to him. A more sexually experienced man normally do not have this reaction but presumably DO get it when he experiences proper tension buildup first. I see a few ways that can happen. One is that the woman is more attractive than the women he usually gets with or otherwise more attractive to him because of the way he connects with her or the total LTR potential package she presents. Another way is that the woman holds out longer for the sex and otherwise makes him work to get her. Otherwise work for it in this context does not have to mean “beta style work for it” but fight with every player skill he has to just barely get her (in his mind). A third way is to just come of as selectively hard to get as Susan talked about in a previous post.
From reading at PUA forums it seems to me that for the players that get women in the 8-10 range it is more the emotional connection rather than physical hotness that actually hooks him and makes him fall. Women somewhere in that range are generally accessible to him for sex anyway so thats no prize. Factors such as great in bed femininity and good attitudes etc. are necessary and often mentioned as important but when they talk about the one their with or the one that left or they felt they had to leave but miss it is generally some sort of emotional connection that separated the girl rather than looks.
By the way, I highly recomend looking up Hitoris archieves at fastseduction as she is, possibly, the only really highly regarded and trusted female poster about pickup. I put quite a lot of weight on what specific women here that have earned my respect in terms of views on pickup that I agree with but I still always expect them to make judgment errors from time to time because women are programmed to not see certain of these things clearly. From what I have read of Hitori she is the only one that seems to be as good and consistent in analyzing pickup as the best male posters.
Jesus Mahoney–
That’s just feminist and (some) Christian ideology. Read Maggie McNeill. She certainly disagrees. She’s a former New Orleans escort who’s college educated, retired, married (to a former client), very intelligent and an excellent writer. She blogs about all aspects of higher end prostitution, and sometimes about myths about most of the lower end too. Her blog is titled “The Honest Courtesan”.
Maybe I’m mixing things up. I thought Kate Perry was some pop star who’s marketed to 13 yr old girls.
Dough,
I’m neither a Christian nor a feminist, but anybody who sells her coochie for cash certainly degrades herself in my book.
Jesus Mahoney–
The whole “false consciousness” think that feminist trot out for call girls that don’t feel their work is necessarily degrading (if they don’t let it be), is pure Marxist derived dogma.
I just thought of something regarding Katy Perry. One of her songs is titled “Thinking of You”, and it is very similar to “The One That Got Away”. Here are the lyrics.
“Comparisons are easily done
Once you’ve had a taste of perfection
Like an apple hanging from a tree
I picked the ripest one, I still got the seed
You said move on, where do I go?
I guess second best is all I will know
‘Cause when I’m with him I am thinking of you
(Thinking of you, thinking of you)
Thinking of you, what you would do
If you were the one who was spending the night
(Spending the night, spending the night)
Oh, I wish that I was looking into your eyes
You’re like an Indian Summer in the middle of winter
Like a hard candy with a surprise center
How do I get better once I’ve had the best?
You said there’s tons of fish in the water, so the waters I will test
He kissed my lips, I taste your mouth, oh!
(Taste your mouth)
He pulled me in, I was disgusted with myself
‘Cause when I’m with him I am thinking of you
[ From : http://www.elyrics.net/read/k/katy-perry-lyrics/thinking-of-you-lyrics.html ]
(Thinking of you, thinking of you)
Thinking of you, what you would do
If you were the one who was spending the night
(Spending the night, spending the night)
Oh, I wish that I was looking into
You’re the best, and yes, I do regret
How I could let myself let you go
Now, now the lesson’s learned
I touched it, I was burned
Oh, I think you should know!
‘Cause when I’m with him I am thinking of you
(Thinking of you, thinking of you)
Thinking of you, what you would do
If you were the one who was spending the night
(Spending the night, spending the night)
Oh, I wish that I was looking into your, your eyes
Looking into your eyes, looking into your eyes
Oh, won’t you walk through?
And bust in the door and take me away?
Oh, no more mistakes
‘Cause in your eyes I’d like to stay, stay”
Hypergamy and pining after a lost alpha are all over that one. At least she is consistent, I will say that much.
Yea, I’m sure that’s it, Doug. People who peddle their asses for money really aren’t selling themselves short.
@Jesus, I realize you have trouble with the concept of Alpha so I wont attempt to define it for you, but in this instance lets just say the Alpha is the Man who best fits a woman’s idealization and leaves that as his legacy for her to reflect on once he’s out of the picture. Dominance in bed is only one aspect of this overall idealization.
There’s a lot more to being Alpha than just sex, but since that’s the topic here, yes, being the A guy, rather than the B or C guy means more in terms of sexual significance for women.
“That’s just feminist and (some) Christian ideology. Read Maggie McNeill. She certainly disagrees. She’s a former New Orleans escort who’s college educated, retired, married (to a former client), very intelligent and an excellent writer. She blogs about all aspects of higher end prostitution, and sometimes about myths about most of the lower end too. Her blog is titled “The Honest Courtesan”.”
That may be Doug1, but it is still how I roll and have no plans on changing it. I’ve said before that a lot of my morality is based in Catholic teachings, so you are probably right. Still doesn’t change anything in the least. All it really does is say to me that people who are OK with casual sex are probably less moral and ethical than I am. Of course that is probably not true for everyone, but that is kinda the view I hold already.
I’m sure many will fault me for that view, saying I’m “looking down my nose” or sitting on “my high horse”. That’s fine. I’m good with being viewed as a moral snob. I’ve said before, I will judge everyone using my own criteria, and no matter how much wailing and gnashing of teeth occurs, that isn’t going to change. I don’t have a problem with it because I don’t allow my judgments to change how I treat people. In fact, as an introvert, I don’t deal directly with people often anyway, so I rarely even have to filter my interactions based on my judgments.
What that means is: just because I’m nice to a person, doesn’t mean I don’t have a rather low opinion of them. I imagine it comes from the “don’t hate the sinner, hate the sin” line of thinking.
Rollo,
Okay, then yes, I’d agree with you. If a woman’s last lover was her ideal man, and her next lover is not… then, yea, he’s got a lot to worry about. Or not. He should just find a new woman.
Rollo – man your kinda depressing me here… So, what you are saying is, the more Alpha’s a woman has had sex with, the MORE Alpha a guy will need to get and keep her?!
If there was ever a reason to skip promiscuous women for LTRs, this is it!
@Jesus, if you’d take two minutes to read this post you’d understand:
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/five-minutes-of-alpha/
Katy Perry is just the vehicle for a greater message. Five minutes of Alpha trumps five years of Beta.
Ted,
Not to worry, there’s no such thing as alpha.
Susan—
You certainly allowed vicious attacks on me, such as by munson, and cheered them on. You left up his last attack on me which was about all in shouting all caps, calling me “a liar” and saying he “has my number”, and that “I own you [me] now pussy”, then closed off comments before I could respond. I think he was drunk.
Jesus,
There´s no such thing as a spoon either, but Im having my cereal with it.
JM – yeah I get where you are coming from there. The descriptions alpha/beta/whatever are very limiting. But, the takeaway is if a woman spends years banking really dominant guys, it is going to take a VERY dominant guy to get and keep her around. That is depressing, especially of the woman keeps going for the more assholean types because she needs to escalate the dominant rush she is looking for. It really is a bit like drug addiction.
Former drug addiction is one of my instant deal-breakers. I would never put someone down for being addicted and getting clean, but it proves they have an addictive personality and possibly issues with impulse control. Clearly bad new.
@ Ted D
I agree that drug use and prostitution is degrading. But I believe there is a mutual feeling of degrading there – drug addicts are usually ashamed on some level of their illness, although some would have us believe many women choose to be prostitutes, mostly they do not. Even so, they need the money to cover up expenses they are not proud of (like drug use or luxury habits they cannot afford). Even if a prostitute claim to be secure in her choice, she will most likely not have told friends, family or gone public with it – which means she’s ashamed.
I still think that a lot of guys find degrading treatment bad because they are more likely to identify with the guy. It is more common for men to degrade women – sexually, at work, through violence – than the other way around. In addition to that, once a situation like that has taken place, men are more likely to imagine the guy’s mind, and you find it degrading – I assume – because his sense of domination and wanting to put a woman down is something you on some level recognize in yourself. Otherwise you couldn’t automatically make that assumption. I’m not saying it’s bad or unnatural – to rape or being raped is actually two of the main fantasies buried deep inside most men and women, sometimes coming to life when we sleep.
Speaking of prostitution, I don’t know if “Secret diary of a call girl” has been shown in the US. It is based on a biography of a real life call girl, a woman with a Phd, who says she did it for fun. Anyway, there is a scene where Belle, the call girl, has been hired by a man and he has asked her to pee on him. From her facial expression we get that she is slightly uncomfortable with this idea, but she finishes the job. We can probably all agree that being peed on is a definite degrading treatment. The scene is great because it puzzles the audience and makes you think about who is being degraded. Maybe both, if there is such a thing. But I do believe that if two people are actually degrading each other, that is another kind of degrading behavior. It is not humiliation, role play or showing domination (which we are talking about in terms of dirty talk), it is simply two people practicing a behavior which is frowned upon by some, or many. As when you mention a guy sleeping around – that is your opinion, mine too actually, but not everyone’s. In the case of prostitution, some would say their both degraded, many would say only the woman, some would say mostly the man, as he is giving up his hard earned money to a woman who pretends to feel a desire for him, and fulfilling a need he is not capable of fulfilling on his own (hence feeling like less of a man). Prostitution is a special case, as it consists of two actors wanting to be the best man (getting laid) and woman (being desirable) they can be.
Rollo:
“It’s not a numbers game, it’s an Alpha game.”
The general promiscuity is still a factor. If you meet your wife in her late twenties and by that time she has never had casual sex with anyone that pretty much rules out cheating through casual encounters. No chance of cheating during work travels or grrrrrrrls night out helps a lot. There are other aspects to this as well such as high number correlates with not being able to delay gratification (at least with regards to sex/romance) and that indicates it will be difficult for her to discipline herself to reach the goals of long term benefits of being faithful by sacrificing short term gratification in terms of cheating. A lower number in my mind indicates a far grater ability to get through a bad period in a relationship without cheating or leaving. Most people will need that ability to make a LTR work. IF you are the most alpha guy she has been with that is the most important probably but your job will be probably be easier and the odds better if her general number is down.
Ah stuck in moderation.
@ Susan, is it possible to edit posts?
Wudang – surely. Especially when you consider that many of the men in the casual sex parade are already alpha/dominant/assholes. The more men a woman has had sex with, the more likely she has had sex with alphas.
And now it is a numbers game again.
Keep your head in the sand Jesus, it’ll all be over soon. Alpha is a concept.
@Ted, you’re missing the point, it’s not the promiscuity, it’s the lasting impact of the men she’s slept with. If your wife’s romantically nostalgic for the high school quarter back (or the One that got away) who took her virginity at 18 does it matter if she’s slept with 12 chumps up until she met her beta provider husband?
How I feel after first sex with a new girl really depends on the girl. If it’s a rather hardened slut esp. if she’s not so good in bed, though they usually are good if they feel like being good, then yeah I’ll tend to feel this way. If she’s more innocent and I really blow her mind and she gets all emotionally into me, especially if I otherwise like her a lot, then I tend to not feel this way.
@Mike
Damn…I jumped ahead to comment earlier. Didn’t have the chance to finish reading the list until now. Just saw your divorce mention.
First thing – sorry to hear about it. I hope it goes as smoothly as possible. If you need advice, I can point you to some resources.
Second thing – My congrats were meant for the 5 happy years you had with the woman. Though I could also congratulate you for getting out of a bad situation and back to a freer life!
@Susan
I thought you decided what was posted here? If this blog’s bowing to pseudo-feminist shaming, that would be quite sad.
Personally, I find the whole anti-MRA thing quite laughable. I could be considered an MRA (though I prefer speaking on MGTOW here). They can rail on MRAs all they want…just looks bad on them.
Anyway, on topic now.
“While women often prefer men who have sexual options, and consequently some sexual experience, they would do well do avoid promiscuous men.”
This makes a lot of sense, considering the player/invisible men dynamic. However it’s up against a lot of opposing factors: a woman’s SMP uncertainty, feminist dogma, a man’s confidence/game, physical attractiveness judgements, etc.
Can’t think of a solution right now; just wanted to chip in.
Jess #98 It’s munson.
1) men like “camel toe”-agree; only I didn’t say it in post Susan alluded to
2_guys are weird-true; Are you suggesting that women for the most part ignore a guys “moose knuckle”?
PROOF OF INHERENT DISTINCTION BETWEEN MEN & WOMEN
Fire was discovered somehwere between 750,000 (outside) and 400,000 (generally accpeted). In all the multitides of generations since it’s discovery, do you think it ever occurred to a group of girls t light a fart?
I rest my case.
JM:
“How exactly does one “overalpha” someone in bed?”
I didn`t mean overalpha in bed but overalpha in terms of attraction/dominance.
But I guess by being a BDSM dungeon master you could definitively overalpha someone in bed in some sense but not sure how big impact being more dominant in bed will have on overall attraction. For the most part increase it a fair bit but unless one is dominant to a certain degree outside the bedroom I think the effect is limmited although valuable.
I almost feel like i should start blogging. But im not there yet. However i wanted to touch on something Yohami said earlier, in another thread i can’t find.
To the effect of : It’s not a woman’s place to teach a man how to be dominant / alpha / whatever.
He’s quite right.. so im wondering who is responsible. Nature vs. Nurture?
If you took a baby boy and threw him into a jungle alone… he’s dead in minutes when he goes to play with the tiger. Not cool.
Guess dad picks up the slack.
But what if dad isn’t around? (single mom)
What if dad is a cuckolded beta shmuck?
What if dad is a strong but suplicating beta?
What if all you see is TV shows like Home Improvement where Tim Allen is a moron who’s always making his wife mad with his bumbling bad behavior, and always has to defer to her, lest he crawl of to ‘always good advice’ Wilson on how to stop being a stupid guy and get in touch with his feminine side to soothe the ruffles, become more beta and all is forgiven.
I really need to sit down and figure out just where men are supposed to discover their ‘alphaness’ lies. It obviously isn’t Nature, else all men would alpha up like puberty or something.
Rollo Thomassi—
Yeah I read your most recent blog post on that.
I think it’s both. Both total numbers and how much more sexually attractive the hottest guy she’s ever slept with is than her beta husband. I think both will tend to deaden the ability/tendency for girls to fall adoringly into intense love for her husband in the initial “honeymoon” limerance stage.
Actually the first factor is I think a little more complicated and nuanced than simply hottest guy she ever slept with once. Because of the way female sexuality and bonding/falling in love works, and having perceived great sex when really in love, I don’t think a ONS with 35 yo George Clooney is gonna ruin her, but her having an intense fling with him, in which she falls intensely in love and perceives/believes he’s falling for her too, just more slowly, and then he breaks her heart by dumping her or keeping on seeing two other girls without hiding it much, THAT will leave a lasting impact.
@Doug1
Feminism celebrates sex work, it doesn’t consider it the least bit degrading.
>> It’s not a woman’s place to teach a man how to be dominant / alpha / whatever.
This is true, but at the same time there are things that a woman can do if she ‘s losing attraction/wants to see more “alpha” in the relationship.
I’ve said this before, but I really think that if you treat a guy like a (good) Alpha then he’ll start acting more like one.
Although this probably only works if the foundation is already there.
@Doug1
There is no good way of closing comments without leaving some people hanging. It’s an arbitrary decision re who gets the last word.
In any case, I do not plan to allow vicious attacks on the divorce post. I’ll be wielding the comment machete on that one.
I think an important factor is that the lower partner count guys likely view most or all their lays as potential girlfriend material (by necessity or because of views on casual sex). HTe higher partner count guys will we most women as potential short term conquests or at best potential fuckbuddies even before the sex and so attraction will diminish once the sex is over as they aren`t really looking for more. But a few women they will look at as LTR potential and probably not get dimished attraction for. The lower partner count guys might still get exactly the same reaction towards a woman as the player often has if he is certain a woman will only be for casual sex. Such as if on vacation or he views her as not hot enough or too sluty or there are other dealbreakers. In studies of this of course high partner count guys will have a higher average of loss of attraction because they so often go to bed with women they already view as only casual sex potential. That does not mean they have lost the general ability to maintain attraction or that this mechanism plays a part once a woman is viewed as LTR potential as evidenced by what Doug1 says.
Another possibility is that high testosterone in itself is what creates this effect. The more testosterone the less pairbonding. Betas with low testosterone would hence have a stronger pairbonding reaction just like a woman regardless of partnercount.
I think this all ties in with womens desire for a rather aloof and cold high testosterone man that gets emotionally connected only to her. His masculinity and access to sex makes sex itself not pairbonding enough but the emotions she can generate in him by being the most attractive or through the emotional connection is what makes him stay in her mind and that is probably exactly right.
Wudang—
I agree with this. Also if she has lowish numbers it indicates that she hasn’t bought into sex positive feminism, with all it’s other pernicious anti male and pro divorce for any ole reason ideas, but instead has more traditional ideas of morality, decorum, and what’s attractive long term in women.
Susan–
Then you should at least have long since taken down munson’s last comment. I don’t see how it could have been any more violative of you comments policies. As well it was based on the absurd premise that all non litigators two decades out of law school would know the answer to his little federal civil procedure riddle.
@Umslo
We love Mike, but in all honesty, we have heard Mike’s story many times. Most, if not all, have offered words of support many times. Charm is new. Please don’t extrapolate from this, you’re barking up the wrong tree here.
I’ve deleted your comment, as I routinely delete all comments of the “America is a dunghole” variety.
Susan—
There’s a big split among feminists on that. In fact that’s really how sex positive or third wave feminism differentiated itself from other feminists. Sex positive feminists said that sex work, including stripping, porn and prostitution could be empowering if done the right way and she’s in control. Feminists such as Cartherine McKinnon said it was inherently degrading, a product of the patriarchy, and that any belief by strippers or escorts that it isn’t necessarily degrading is the result of “false consciousness” put there by men, naturally.
@Chris_in_CA
I’d never take advantage of a man who had his life together. I too plan on having all of those things before 30, so I guess it’s me projecting my idea of responsibly on to other people. I’d prefer to marry an equal rather than being one of those gals who tries to “marry up”.
Im assuming you’re one of those guys who was on the sideline for a while? Have you had women all of a sudden become interested in you and your stability? I too would pull the “Thanks, but no thanks card”.
@Anna
Sorry, no edit function. The comment threads function much better without the bells and whistles, I’m afraid.
Yohami,
You should try making the spoon jealous by eating your cereal with an alpha. Tell us how it goes.
Thank you Susan. I was really tempted to write him the same thing, but I just let it go. It’s funny how new commenters come on here and make assumptions about the regular commenters without even doing their homework by reading some of the older posts.
@Chris
Of course I decide, but I often ask readers for feedback and I always consider it. It really wasn’t a case of feminist shaming, I don’t think. Some just found the tenor of the debate rather intense and sometimes unpleasant, and they let me know.
As I said, I gave my word and I will put up a post early next week about Marriage 2.0. It has quickly become clear that the topic is massive, so I plan to run a series of occasional articles. The first will introduce men’s view of marriage as risky, and the effect of that on the marriage rate. For most of my readers, what’s needed is a primer – the whole concept of EPL, for example, will be new.
1 2 3 … 10 »
{ 7 trackbacks }