The Sexual Double Standard Cuts Both Ways

January 6, 2012

One of my core beliefs about mating is that the sexual double standard reflects the biological differences between the sexes. Generally speaking, men prefer women with less sexual experience than they have and women prefer men with more sexual experience than they have (Buss, The Evolution of Desire). While it’s true that many women today seek to shed the encumbrance of their virginity, we all know that the aging male virgin is an object of cultural ridicule. In today’s sexual marketplace, many women will ruthlessly disqualify a man for a perceived lack of sexual experience or finesse. (Cads will do the same to female virgins, but that reflects their short-term mating priorities rather than long-term preference.) Today we’ve reached a point where there are more male virgins than female virgins in college (43% vs. 37%), reflecting the increasing divide between the minority of men who have sexual options and the rest.

I’ve stated before that my interest in sex (and who’s having it) is a strategic one. I’m not concerned with moral questions around casual sex. Indeed, I do not believe that casual sex is immoral. My opposition to casual sex is rooted in the belief that it is a risky strategy for women who wish to ultimately settle with a life partner. This is not to say that promiscuous women will be unable to marry, just that promiscuity limits one’s options by dramatically shrinking the pool of potentially interested partners. There is also some evidence that the prior number of sexual partners, as well as the age at which women lose their virginity, are risk factors for divorce. (More about male promiscuity in a bit.) 

Ultimately, my position re casual sex means that there will be times when I will applaud a male for having gotten laid, while withholding approval from a female for the same behavior. This is simply a reflection of my position that men and women experience sex differently, and judge one another accordingly. It is a double standard, one that’s built in, and 40+ years of feminism’s trying to “reeducate” men and women has been an unmitigated failure. I believe that it’s possible, though by no means guaranteed, that a man may profit from a casual sexual encounter. I believe it’s also possible, though much less likely, that a woman may benefit from a casual sexual encounter.

At the same time, I believe that people should be held accountable for their own choices. Basically, “you break it, you own it.” Both sexes have full sexual agency today, and we are seeing that play out in an increasingly dysfunctional sexual marketplace. We should not be in the business of trying to protect either sex from themselves. I do not hold men responsible for the emotional toll on a woman who readily engages in casual sex with them (provided they have not engaged in deceit.) Nor do I hold women responsible for the emotional toll on a man who falls for a woman who is clearly averse to commitment. Again, it is a strategic matter – we should avoid those people who we can reasonably judge as being unwilling to give us what we want.

Eric Barker at Barking Up the Wrong Tree recently shared a study that looks at how men and women respond after having sex with a person for the first time:

This article develops the Affective Ship Hypothesis, which suggests that women experience positive affective shifts following first-time intercourse as a means to facilitate a longer-term, more committed relationship. The hypothesis predicts a negative affective shift in men who pursue a short-term mating strategy; this shift is hypothesized to function to curtail commitment by motivating the man to terminate the relationship.

In two separate studies, researchers found that “men with high numbers of sex partners, but not men with low numbers of partners, experienced a decrease in their partner’s physical and sexual attractiveness following first-time sexual intercourse. In contrast, women, more than men, experienced increases in feelings of love and commitment following first-time sex.”

In other words, a manwhore will like you less after having sex with you, while a less sexually experienced man will like you more.

This has clear implications for women: there is indeed a boomerang effect in male  promiscuity. Preselection is not endlessly beneficial as an indicator of mating fitness. We know that male promiscuity is a risk factor for divorce, but it also means that a man with a high number of past sexual partners begins to tire of you immediately after having sex with you.

While women often prefer men who have sexual options, and consequently some sexual experience, they would do well do avoid promiscuous men. 

  • Helen

    What are some strategies for women to weed out men who have had many partners? How can you tell?

    • @Helen,

      Here’s an excerpt from a post I wrote on the topic:

      4. Observe how he carries himself. Red flags include:

      Swagger
      Smirk
      Touches women carelessly – lots of hand on the lower back behavior
      Grinds on the dance floor with anyone
      Extroverted, enjoys being the center of attention
      Eye f*cking, or excessive direct eye contact
      Moves into your personal space boldly
      These are all signs that you are not likely to be someone special over a period of time. Men like this go from hot to cold with the flip of a switch. If you observe this behavior when you meet a guy, don’t even give him a shot, he is bad news.

      5. Understand his relationships.

      How does he interact with his family? Is he protective of his sister? Does he love his mama? Does he respect his father? Anything off in the family sphere is a major red flag.

      What are his male friends like? What is the friendship based on? What do they do together? Is he close enough to any guy to confide in him?

      Do his friends seem eager to reassure you that he is a really good guy? This is usually a bad sign. In fact, in my experience it means he is a total douchebag. Guys don’t get their friends to wing for them in this way if they have no need of providing extra reassurance.

      Are most of his friends women? This is a bad sign. There are some very good guys who don’t have a lot of female friends, but there are very few good guys who have no male friends.

      Is he still connected to his ex? Being cordial is fine, but making plans, talking, texting, etc. are not. If a guy is in regular touch with his ex for any reason, he is unavailable emotionally. That means he isn’t capable of wanting more than sex from you.

      How do women in his circle regard him? If you see women pulling him aside at parties and in hallways to “talk,” you can be sure he has unfinished business, at least in the eyes of those women. If women are inexplicably hostile to you, it often means that he treated them poorly, and they resent your coming on the scene as the new favorite. Anytime a guy says, “She’s a psycho” or “I don’t know what her problem is,” be careful. Usually, this is projection, and the woman has a very good reason indeed for being pissed off.

      Is it important to him that you meet and like his friends? He should be more than just willing, he should be invested in making this connection if he has any interest in something lasting.

      Is he eager to meet your friends? Does he go out of his way to be attentive and interested, determined to make a good impression? If he is all about his own circle, expecting you to come to him all the time, he is not relationship material.

      6. Watch how he displays physical affection.

      Hand holding is a must, but lots of players know this, and use it to pretend to be caring. Ditto for the nose kiss and the forehead kiss. Hugs are completely meaningless. This is all known as intimacy lite.

      He should be at least a little nervous about the first kiss. If he has his tongue down your throat an hour after hello, move on.

      When you’re out together at a party or gathering, does he stick close by, making it clear you are together? You should have a sense that he is attentive and a little protective. He should also be anxious to show you off if he is invested.

      If he “invites” you to suck his d*ck, move on. I can never get over guys who say, “You can go down on me if you want.” If he thinks his penis is a rare and precious sword he’s a player.

      If he’s smug about the size of his penis, move on. Lousy at sex, guaranteed. Funny, it’s always the guys with big ones who don’t like going down on women.

      Cads are generally bad in bed. In the one published report from a woman who had sex with Tucker Max, she said he was terrible. Jackhammer all the way. What did he care? He was just taking the shortest route from Point A to Point B. If you get to the point of sex with a guy, and he makes zero effort, he’s a player.

      There is one exception. Players will work hard to please you during sex if they have reason to believe you’ll report on their skills. So if he wants to do all your friends next, he’ll probably make an effort. This shouldn’t ever happen if you’ve paid attention to all the other signs.

      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/04/30/hookinguprealities/how-to-make-sure-you-dont-fall-for-a-player/

  • GudEnuf

    “Ultimately, my position re casual sex means that there will be times when I will applaud a male for having gotten laid, while withholding approval from a female for the same behavior. This is simply a reflection of my position that men and women experience sex differently, and judge one another accordingly. It is a double standard, one that’s built in, and 40+ years of feminism’s trying to “reeducate” men and women has been an unmitigated failure.”

    That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.

  • Jim

    Problem is women are not hard wired but chemically altered via birth control to stave off becoming pregnant. And the end result, fertility drugs to try and get pregnant and a whole lotta kids with birth defects.

    • @Jim

      Problem is women are not hard wired but chemically altered via birth control to stave off becoming pregnant.

      Actually, women on the Pill prefer lower testosterone men, less dominant and aggressive men, and men with less masculine facial features. That’s because they don’t get a monthly surge of testosterone without ovulation, which is the only time per month women prefer the most dominant men. Of course, that too cuts both ways. Women are more likely to cheat when they ovulate.

  • Ted D

    GudEnuf – you said: “That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.”

    Please explain. I don’t see this, but it is probably my age.

    Susan – Although the comic is a little funny, I’ve always found that particular angle of the “double standard” to be repugnant. I have a daughter and a son, and I have never treated how I discuss sexuality with them differently. I would never consider telling my daughter to remain chaste while telling my son to sow his “wild oats”. I’ve told them both that in the end, who they choose to be intimate with may very well help or hurt them in the long run, and that they should be very selective on who they choose to share themselves with.

    That being said, I’ve said the same thing about who they choose to be friends with as well. Who you associate with says a lot about you as a person. I believe the people (or maybe what TYPE of people) they choose to have sex with will do the same.

    • @Ted D

      Although the comic is a little funny, I’ve always found that particular angle of the “double standard” to be repugnant.

      I agree, but unfortunately I think you’re unusual. I have found in my community and in speaking to school groups that mothers and fathers are generally very proud to be parents of a real player (wink wink nudge nudge) and equally adamant that their daughter be chaste. Meanwhile, parents of sons who don’t have a date to the prom are shamed and respond defensively. And if a girl is caught doing something slutty at school, like giving a blowjob on the school bus, she’s likely to be sent to counseling and the parents hang their heads in shame. Trust me, I’ve seen all of this kind of intra-parent competition at the high school level.

  • Charm

    Dang it, the comment I posted last night would have been perfect for this blog post today. Ah well.

    So men who are less sexually experienced like you more? Interesting. Society tends to shun less experienced or virgin males? Even more interesting. I wonder what these men are doing during the time they are being shunned. Im assuming this is most likely to happen during the late teen’s early to mid 20’s? Seems like these men would be forced to focus on school and their career instead of chasing women. If no one else wants one, I’ll take him. 🙂

    • @Charm

      Dang it, the comment I posted last night would have been perfect for this blog post today. Ah well.

      It was your comment and several others that inspired this post. That’s often the way it happens with me, and it’s why I am so grateful for lively comment threads.

  • I’m reminded of the joke Newman tells in the opening of “The Verdict”.

    Man tells his friends “There’s a new bar in town where for $20 they give you 3 beers, a meal, and then take you in the back room and get you laid.”
    Friend : “You’re saying there’s a bar where for $20 they give you 3 beers, a meal, and then take you in the back room and get you laid? When did you go there?”
    Man: ” I didn’t, but my sister went there last night.”

  • Charm

    @Helen

    I would say just ask outright. Let him know that you don’t have casual sex nor do you care to be with someone who has had a lot of it.( I like to give people a one time pass if they’ve done it because everyone was young once and trying things out to see if you like them is a part of going up.) Anyway, he has three options:

    1. Tell the truth
    2.Lie
    3. Say “Why does it matter?”

    In either case you can choose how to react. You can’t know whether he is telling the truth or lying but on thing I know is that lies ALWAYS come back to bite people. Especially in my case. If you tell me something, I will NOT forget it. So when one of your friends casually mentions it 8 months later you bet there will be some fire for your ass. Like they said for women, eventually the truth will come out. If there is an insinuation I will notice it, wait until Ive collected enough proof, bring it up, and shut you down.

    If someone wants to play the “but why does it matter” or “none of your business” game, then Im out the door. I don’t play games with people. Its find if it doesn’t matter to that person, but they don’t get to chose what is important to me. Its not so much the number, but the story behind it. There is ALWAYS a story behind it. Always.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Charm,

    I like you. You’ve got a good head on your shoulders.

  • Jim

    @ Charm

    I was fat in my 20’s but I’m also blue collar. Two things not wanted in today’s society. Yet at 40, I been out of work for 6 months and still live in comfort. You figure it out.

    While women continue to shun men SO THEY CAN HAVE THEIR FUN, they are also shunning stable futures and in fact ensuring they are isolated. At my age, I don’t give women that are even close to my age range the time of day. I am simply not attracted to them especially when women who are much younger respond to my “attitude” that’s backed up by “life experience”. And believe me when I say, there are a lot of miserable, older women who would kill to have a companion.

  • alexamenos

    I love the ‘double standards’ discussion….

    One Wednesday morning I came to suspect that she was cheating on me. I became reasonably certain of this by Thursday afternoon, and I kicked her out of my life forevermore by Thursday evening, no further questions asked.

    The next ‘she’ came to suspect that I was cheating on her (I wasn’t, and never would, but that’s beside the point). She insisted that henceforth I wear a condom.

    I’ll add to the above that I’ve never had any interest in a serious, intimate relationship with a promiscuous woman, nor have I had any interest in a serious relationship with a promiscuous man.

    As for the cartoon at the top (hyperbole aside), it could very well be that the father has one standard — a standard of not wanting harm to come to his children — and that standard manifests itself in advising the daughter not to do things which may hurt her in the long run.

    Anyhoo….anytime I read someone griping about double standards I usually find that the person is either a) incapable of distinguishing ‘double standards’ from different people having different standards about different things; or b) a person of poor character who wants other people to lower their standards so their poor character isn’t so obvious.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Why don’t your daughter and your focus group girls comment on your blog? You’d think that since they’re the intended audience, they’d be a bit more vocal….

    • @Jesus

      Why don’t your daughter and your focus group girls comment on your blog? You’d think that since they’re the intended audience, they’d be a bit more vocal….

      There are a few reasons. One is that my daughter and her friends, both girls and guys, read HUS religiously. But commenting feels very open to them – none of them could keep anonymity for long. Since some of the drama includes these girls and guys, it could get pretty uncomfortable. Actually, if I could ever get two of them to do it, it would be an interesting He Said/She Said. As it is, though, my daughter is constantly fending off queries about whether a particular post is about so-and-so (it’s not). My daughter is particularly sensitive to my using personal details from her life, and no way is she going to provide more on her own.

      The second thing is that my groups have dispersed at this point. They graduated from college in 2010 and 2011. Some are in Boston, others have moved away. So our communication is irregular at this point. I am still in very regular touch with some of the women, but several are in serious relationships now and they’re all working full-time. HUS just isn’t bound to have remained a top priority for all these years.

      However, of the 10 or so that I still see very regularly, all read the threads pretty thoroughly. When we get together for “stories” they’ll quote Badger or say, “Ugh, that Doug!”

  • Charm

    @ Jesus

    Lol. Thanks.

    @Jim

    I am currently in my final year of college and am trying to lose about 50 pounds. I’ve been on the american diet way too long and now its time to move to a different tune, plus I know my chances for finding a mate will increase if Im slimmer plus my fertility will better if Im not carrying around excess weight. So, as of right now I too am just focusing on the future and not dating. I dont plan on getting married until my later 20’s but I can plan ahead, no?

    I think that a lot of women my age really do think they have forever to settle down, hell I might respect them more if they had a timeline set up like I do. I feel like women wake up one day, at like 28 and realize they want a husband and kids. But in no way have they planned for it. They don’t even know where to start. Guess 10 straight years of partying will do that to your brain cells.

    There is nothing more sexy to me than stability. You mean to tell me you already have an IRA/a stable job/and savings for a house? At 30? Well…hello there. LOL. I feel like women wake up and realize that these men are where it is at but they think stability=boring when it reality stability allows for you to have more fun because all your ducks are in a row and you don’t have to worry about things as much. I guess it boils down to whether you want benefit now for 5 mins or later for 5 years.

    Good for you for not dating the women near your age range. I think people have got it right when they say that women hit 30 and realize that they aren’t as “hot” as they thought they were. Then they get desperate and start seeking out men like you. Shun them. Shun them. Lol. Thats what they get.

  • escarondito

    @jesus baloney

    Agreed. I’ve always wondered that. Aunt sue?

  • Tom

    “Indeed, I do not believe that casual sex is immoral.”

    Which makes your “advice” highly suspect.

    • @Tom

      “Indeed, I do not believe that casual sex is immoral.”

      Which makes your “advice” highly suspect.

      I’m sure it does for some, and that’s why I wanted to clarify. I have found that because of my general opposition to feminism and promiscuity, I have a good number of readers who are religious. That’s fine – we may be working for the same ends – but our motives are different. I felt the need to clarify this because some readers get quite upset when I write a post about when to have sex while dating, or give some guy a high five for getting with some girl.

      Those who disagree with my views are certainly under no obligation to stick around. And of course no one is forced to implement my advice. There is plenty of room for disagreement, but I want readers to know where I stand on this.

  • VD

    That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.

    This time it’s different… you know, we’ve heard that one a few times before. That’s an absolutely stupid statement, completely devoid of evidence and easily disproved.

    What are some strategies for women to weed out men who have had many partners? How can you tell?

    Ask. If he’s smoothly evasive and doesn’t actually mention any quantity while changing the subject or flipping the frame onto you, he’s a player. If he’s not that experienced, he’ll be awkward and overly explanatory, going into weird details about this and that girlfriend. In general, if you’re left feeling halfway embarrassed for the guy, you’re safe. If you find yourself realizing half an hour later that you never got an actual answer, you’re screwed. So to speak.

    Perhaps the best example of this sort of non-answer was when Charles and Diana were asked if they were in love. She said: “Of course!” He said: “What is love?” and smoothly deflected the interviewer. If you get a “what is love” sort of philosophical answer, you’re probably in over your head. If you’re really unlucky, you’ll run into a Dark Gamer who will pull a Yohami on you. “Love love love, let’s bring this dream home.” Nothing you can do about that.

  • Mike

    @Charm 6

    Seems like these men would be forced to focus on school and their career instead of chasing women. If no one else wants one, I’ll take him. 🙂

    Good call. But again, if you follow trends like in Japan, most of these men who are left to their own devices while the women go off to play on the jackhammer playground carousel, these guys lose any drive to want to become a high earner and provider mentality. They don’t want to provide for anyone but themselves, and living alone on the cheap is stress free compared to racking up debt for a house full of shit you dont want and no room to call your own (save for the garage), and credit debt galore, etc…

    The only ones of these guys that are incel invisables that do end up going hard to become high earners more often than not will end up using it as a faux dark game crutch, ala ‘ill make it big and have women fawning over me for my cash and i can replace them with younger versions every year or so, like trading up a car.’

    Not to beat a dead horse, i just don’t think women understand just how deep the traumatic damage of being relegated to the sidelines for the entirety of a mans sexual peak really is. I still haven’t healed from that fully, and i’ve had 5+ years and 2.5 of those happily married, and it still haunts me as tho it were yesterday.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike,

    +1. I said the same thing to Jhane yesterday. Very often, men who are marginalized or “sidelined”, feeling lonely, are starving men. Starving men in a land of plenty develop real emotional wounds after a long enough time.

  • Anna

    @ Susan,
    when you say women often prefer more sexually experienced partners, do you mean men with a high number, a lot of casual sex or simply a lot of sex in total? I’m asking because men in several long term relationships have often had more sex than those sleeping around, even if the players happen to be good with girls, you usually don’t get 4-5 new ones per week.

    The problem for me with guys & sexual experience is that the only guarantee you can get is negative. If a guy is a virgin or has other tells such as a selfish personality or bad ways of touching you, you can be pretty guaranteed the sex won’t be great. But there is no guarantee it will be good – an experienced and sexual guy may be crap as well. In fact, a guy who’s an absolute dog is often a jackhammer. It’s hard to strike gold in this area – which is why many girls are hesitant and choosy with sex partners (more than moral reasons I might add! Where I’m from it’s pretty free and guys don’t care so much about a girl’s experience).

    • @Anna

      when you say women often prefer more sexually experienced partners, do you mean men with a high number, a lot of casual sex or simply a lot of sex in total? I’m asking because men in several long term relationships have often had more sex than those sleeping around, even if the players happen to be good with girls, you usually don’t get 4-5 new ones per week.

      Women appreciate men that other women want. So if a guy can put across that he has options, that you’re not his sexual lifesaver, it’s often enough. I don’t think women care so much about sexual expertise when they’re seeking a LTR – in my experience, one long weekend in bed is all it takes to learn how to blow a particular person’s mind.

      There’s also the clear point at which this surfeit of options can boomerang – and here I think it depends on how men treat those options. Jesus learned this summer that he could have 8 ONSs in a couple of months. At that pace, he could snag 50 women a year. But he has chosen not to, and he has a gf instead. That is the kind of selectivity that women reward. He would be a lot less appealing, for relationship-oriented women, if he’d hit it all 50 times. Many women would say that’s just gross.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    Where I’m from it’s pretty free and guys don’t care so much about a girl’s experience

    Where are you from? Because while most guys I know won’t care about your experience if they’re in it for the sex, just about all the guys I know of care about experience when it comes to relationships.

  • Charm

    @Roger

    Is his answer meant to be both sarcastic and throw her off? If so, it wouldn’t work on me. I’d stare at him blankly until he realized I wasn’t joking. Trying to throw me off is like trying to shoo a fly from fresh dog shit. It ain’t happenin’.

    @Mike

    Ive heard about Japan. Its a shame. Though, I’d hope that men didn’t allow womens behavior to fully dictate their happiness in life. Like right now, I am not the pick of any litter. Men in their early 20’s more often than not act like boys, so Im not a fan either way. I could get jaded by it, but I don’t. I know that in the future, when people grow up, they will be looking to settle down with someone like me. That also means that I can be more selective about who I choose.

    Did you not think of this when you were on the sidelines? I can’t say I know how men feel, because Im not a man but I do think that there are men and women who go unnoticed for long periods of time for whatever reason. It can be hard to take, but I like to put my mind over matter. Though, I will say that as a woman I don’t face the out right rejection because men typically have to approach the girls so *that* is probably a huge ego crusher. But on the bright-ish side, when women are looking to get off said carousel men like you can next the shit out of them until you find the girl that you want. Pay back is a bitch, no? Lol.

    I hope American men don’t just give up. That would be sad. I’d be disappointed.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Rollo,

    I don’t believe in Alphas. But I do have a problem with a woman who has slept with an asshole.

  • Anna

    @ Jesus,
    I’m Norwegian. I’m not saying it’s completely irrelevant, I’m just saying that I think the tolerance level is a lot higher. I know several girls with HIGH numbers who have bagged great guys. A friend of mine used to sleep around Oslo like crazy, she is today 26 and has never had a relationship before, yet met a great guy and is getting married. They have perhaps not discussed it all, but he is from the same law school so he’s bound to have a clue. She is a pretty girl and from a good family, so she’s not a bad match apart from the past. I suppose he’s just in love.
    I’ve seen more cases like these, yet not so much in other countries as the really attractive girls tend to couple up before that age (France is liberal but French girls are still terrified of being seen as sluts). I totally get how a man can be bothered by a woman’s past and I would prefer a guy not to have slept with half the town, which is why I watch out for myself and keep my number somewhat down. But I know for all Scandinavian countries the girls are used to different conditions.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Interesting. Do you foresee the former-slut-friend that’s engaged having a happy marriage?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Helen

    Also, make sure you listen to how he talks about the women he has been involved with. If every single girl he mentions is described as crazy, evil, or bitchy, I would be suspicious. I could understand 1-2 evil bitchy exes, but all of them being described that way is circumspect.

  • Anna

    @ JM
    Actually I do. She’s the best friend of a friend of mine and she’s always had a very extroverted personality and slightly immature for her age, and as an introvert, it took me some time to like her. But she has reached the point of being ready to settle down, and I honestly don’t think she will miss her single life. Despite her previous life, she is very traditional with family values and my friend told me she can’t wait to get married and have a baby. To be honest, I think a lot of women are in that position. It is natural for men to want to sleep around and have their fun, and have their first real commitment be when they settle down. Whereas if women do the same, guys see them as likely to cheat, flaky and unloyal. Like I said, I get the way of thinking but I do believe some can miss out on great partners that way. There are limits though – if a woman is 27+ and still sleeping around, that is probably more of a lifestyle than a temporary thing. And I feel the same way about guys 30+.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    The reason I asked is that I was in a similar situation. I don’t know what you consider a high number, but my ex-fiancee was at 24. Do you know if the man she’s marrying has had a similar past?

    I think casual sex is a bit flaky. Not a total deal breaker if it came up in someone’s past, but definitely a strike against her. Also, there’s the fact that usually people who sleep around easily aren’t sleeping with people are great character.

  • Mike

    @Rollo 23

    Men should be more concerned about the impact the last Alpha a woman banged had on her than the number of men she’s had sex with in total.

    Kate Perry 🙂

  • VD

    I know for all Scandinavian countries the girls are used to different conditions.

    I suggest you look at Scandinavian marriage rates before concluding that Scandinavian men are just peachy keen with marrying girls who have racked up significant body counts.

    “Only about 60% of Swedish people marry by the time they’re 40, compared to nearly 90% of Americans.”

  • Mike

    @Charm 24

    Did you not think of this when you were on the sidelines?

    No. I did not. All i thought about was.

    “Everyone else is having sex, and i am not”
    “I must be ugly as f*ck”
    “Why do i keep being nice, helpful, courteous, chivalrous, attentive and supportive? They sleep with mental tormentors and emotional recluses and come to me to cry about why they’re not like me”
    “My friends continue to rib me about my virginity”
    “God just kill me now”
    “I’m a f*cking loser”
    “If i ever become stinking rich, i’ll never admit to it. First girl that accepts me for me will get a super unexpected bonus.”
    “Man i’d kill for some sex right now”
    “I’m going to stick to my standards rather than f*ck some diseased whore”

    You know you hit rock bottom when your ‘friends’ start sending you links like this in your email. That was about the time i nearly locked myself in the garage and ran the engine.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwNVE37BGVE

    But im feeling much better now.

  • Anna

    @ VD
    I’m not Swedish but I can definitely see Sweden being a bit different from Norway in that area. However, I don’t think marriage rates indicates how the men feel about sexual promiscuity. The US is quite a religious country whereas Scandinavian countries are extremely secularized. Marriage is still strongly linked to Christianity and moving away from religion is one reason many Norwegians are not so concerned with marriage as many other countries. That doesn’t keep people from spending their lives together, in my mind living together and raising a child is not that different from actually tying the knot. My parents aren’t married (although he’s my stepfather, my mother just hasn’t remarried) and I don’t consider it weird. Anyway point is, I strongly doubt the lower marriage rates is that Scandinavians don’t like their own girls.

  • Wudang

    Anna, about picking good lovers. I look for a couple of things in women. Number one is probably that I sense some sort of sexuality/sensuality in her eyes. Number two is that I look at how she moves, wether she is present in her body or distant from it. Good “technical” control of and sensual awareness in the body = good in bed, for the most part. THree is how they touch. Four is how they dance. Does she follow well and does she generally dance good. As you are a women a clue for you would be does he seem to have enough ability to dominate and be deceisive in bed.

  • VD

    in my mind living together and raising a child is not that different from actually tying the knot.

    That’s the problem, Anna. It’s all in your mind. There is no shortage of scientific studies that show there is a massive difference between living together and raising a child versus tying the knot. And if you want to get anecdotal, I happen to know several unmarried Scandinavian couples, and in each case, they are not married because the guy wants the freedom to walk whenever it suits him. And in most cases, he is unfaithful.

    I live in Europe and I can say that in general, men who do not marry the mothers of their children are spectacularly unfaithful to them. It doesn’t even occur to them to do otherwise.

  • Anna

    @ Susan,
    I love that list. It is so spot on. I find it hilarious with guys who say “you can go down on me if you want”. I’ve never actually had a guy say that to me, but I’ve had one say “where would you like it?”, which pretty much indicates his hopes for the session. Or my favourite (while going down on him): “it’s all for you”. Gee, thanks.

    • Or my favourite (while going down on him): “it’s all for you”. Gee, thanks.

      Haha! OMG that is unbelievable, what a line! Was he talking about his size, volume of sperm, what?

  • Wudang

    I think Rollo has a very good point about the past alpha lover. I know hte sex lives of a number of female friends quite well and a lot of the previous lovers made zero impact. They were just there at the right time to fullfill a general sense of horniness. The increased risk from a general ability for promiscuity is ONE problem. The likelyhood of someone having overalphaed you is another. Probably bigger problem.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Or my favourite (while going down on him): “it’s all for you”. Gee, thanks.

    The question is (assuming this wasn’t a relationship situation): did you still go down on him after he said that?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Wudang,

    How exactly does one “overalpha” someone in bed?

  • Anna

    @ VD
    I suppose it’s a matter of different social circles then. I know my share of players but none who refuse to marriage because of it. They’d rather stay single.
    Regarding my parents, I consider it pretty much impossible for my stepfather to cheat on my mum, as they spend every possible moment together (he is retired, otherwise he is around the house with me and my sister there). Adding to that, I cannot think of any other man less likely to cheat, but I don’t think you’ll take my word for it, as most girls think that way about their father.
    Most couples I know whom are not married when they’re practically living as married, chose so because of tax reasons and unbeneficial legislation. My parents would have a new set of fees if they were married.
    I have no doubt men marry more in the US, but why they do so with the unfavourable settlements bitter twists is beyond me.

    • Most couples I know whom are not married when they’re practically living as married, chose so because of tax reasons and unbeneficial legislation. My parents would have a new set of fees if they were married.

      Well there’s a shortsighted economic policy.

  • Passer_By

    @Helen

    “What are some strategies for women to weed out men who have had many partners? How can you tell?”

    A good first clue is if he comes across as reasonably self assured, confident and interesting, and you’re really attracted to him. 🙂

    @munson

    Good one!!!

  • Anna

    @ JM
    “The question is (assuming this wasn’t a relationship situation): did you still go down on him after he said that?”
    Switched to intercourse (as I wanted to finish too). But it was the last time I chose to see him. He later asked why and I didn’t say anything. Perhaps I should have, he might not be aware that girls find it bleh.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Switched to intercourse

    Hm. Okay.

  • Charm

    @Mike

    I thought that bunny was cute, though very sad. Can’t believe people actually teased you about being a virgin. I often find that my perceptions about other people’s reality is often wrong. I might be envious of what other people are doing, but when I look closer they aren’t doing anything envy worthy at all.

    For example, I go to a big 10 college in the Midwest, and everyone is big on partying/football/hooking up. When I first got here I felt bad that I didn’t like any of these things and people actually judged me because of it. You know, “You don’t like beer?”, “You don’t live and die by football?”, “You’ve never hooked up before?”

    Then, I realized something. There are only a handful of people who actually like partying. Most people just follow the herd because they want to fit in and get the “college experience”. I’ve had numerous people confess to me that they only drink because they don’t want to be standing at a party with no drink in fear that others will judge them. Ive known girls and guys who regret hooking up or admit that theyve never done it. I think their is the air of ambiguity that convinces people of things that aren’t really true. Its like people are too afraid to say what they think out loud. I always discuss things out loud because I find there are people who agree but were scared no one else did.

    I’m glad you found someone finally. I find that if I read too many of these types of blogs that I become a little jaded and want to give up on people in general, but then I meet someone who changes my mind again and again.

  • Anna

    @ JM.
    I didn’t think much about it at the time. Despite this silly attitude he was very good in bed (most guys saying what Susan said are actually selfish). I later did a rerun of small tidbits of sayings and wondered what was up with him. His cocky attitude is rather fake though – when not in bed, he’s nervous.

  • Mike
  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    It’s cool. The idea of it turns my stomach, but what I think of it personally is irrelevant.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike,

    I started reading, but got confused because I don’t know what an alpha is. So I stopped.

  • Sassy6519

    Or my favourite (while going down on him): “it’s all for you”. Gee, thanks.

    Pffffffffffffffttttt!!!!!!!!! Hahahaha!!

    This just made my day. I can’t believe you continued with him after he said that.

  • Mike

    Anna 48

    So you still rewarded him sexually? That’s some bad clicker training there girl.

    Dog takes a dump on the living room carpet
    *click*
    Good boy.. here’s you liver treat.

    Am i the only one? Maybe the comment ‘Its all for you baby’ was taken in the spirit it was given?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Plus… I’m fortunate enough not to know who Kate Perry is beyond the recognition of her name. And I’d like to keep it that way.

  • Anna

    @ JM
    The fact that he considered his penis to be sent from God or that he was generous enough to offer it to me?
    I can be puzzled by things men say in bed, but honestly, if someone sat down on confronted me with everything I said during sex, I’d blush too.

  • In short, women, go take care of those male virgins.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    No, what turned my stomach was that you fucked him after he said it.

  • Anna

    @ JM,
    that’s fine, but like I said I’m not one to take sex-outbursts too seriously. And I’m not one for walking out mid-session with a guy I know (unless he’s unpleasant). Just found him a bit of a dork at the time. “I’ll take the other bed tonight because of what you said”. Overreaction imo.

  • Mike

    @Charm 50
    >I’m glad you found someone finally.

    Sorry to tell dear, but i am 2 weeks away from filing divorce papers. 2.5 years of happy marriage ended Jan 2011. I wasn’t good enough for her. :\

    @Jesus 54
    > I started reading, but got confused because I don’t know what an alpha is. So I stopped.

    Lulz. Even if you don’t (highly dubious) if you stuck through the article you’d get the jist of it. Try it again, replace the word alpha with ‘gina-tingler’ and reread.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    That’s cool. Like I said, what I think is irrelevant. And I can respect your POV. That story just typifies why I’ve chosen to avoid promiscuous women for relationships.

  • Ted D

    Yeah, I’m with you Jesus M. I was a bit physically repulsed by that situation. This is exactly why I have NO interest in women that sleep with assholes. I would never be able to look or feel the same way about a woman if I ever found out something like this.

    Not trying to be critical of the OP, but I personally would view that as being used and abused. He basically thought of her as a servant to satisfy his needs. NOT the way I want anyone to view the person I love.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike,

    I know what people THINK alphas are, but I think it’s a stupid way of understanding the world. Plus, like I said, I’d rather not know more about Kate Perry than I already do. As if some pop star skank would be a good representative of women as a whole, anyway.

  • Ted D

    Anna – I can see that it may have been a “dorkish” slip if he was trying to talk dirty. But if he was in any way serious, he deserved to be booted the hell out, blue balls and all.

    At least you should have “accidentally” scraped your teeth. 😉

    To me it is a matter of respect. He certainly wasn’t respecting you as a person when he implied that you should feel privileged to such his cock. Then again, many of my casual sex issues revolve around personal respect.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    But the fact is that she didn’t think it was a dorkish slip, because she refused to fuck him after that “session”.

  • Anna

    @ Ted D,
    no he’s not amazing at dirty talk. Or talk in general. He’s trying to be dirty in bed and sweet in life. Other quotes include:
    “I don’t really watch porn. I prefer the real thing”.
    And when we first met and talked about music (in a serious tone):
    “I do listen to hip hop. But I don’t watch the music videos. I don’t like the way they portray women”.
    ….
    It was a charming try though.

  • Anna

    @ Ted D,
    Also, the “it’s all for you” is a little bit cute as he’s on the smaller side. As in it’s aalll for you. I’m probably the only one to find that funny.

    • Also, the “it’s all for you” is a little bit cute as he’s on the smaller side. As in it’s aalll for you. I’m probably the only one to find that funny.

      OK, now that could have a totally different meaning. Like, “I know I may not look like much, but whatever I have is yours.” IDK, if a guy said that to me in a relationship, I wouldn’t mind. It might be sorta cute. Like, “You’re the only woman who gets to do this.” If he’s a guy with options, that is a gift.

  • Emily

    >> When we get together for “stories” they’ll quote Badger or say, “Ugh, that Doug!”

    This made me Lol. I’m kind of worried that your Divorce Law post will bring the Doug + Angry MRA people back… I don’t miss them.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    See, now the story sounds different. Originally, you took the line to mean that his dick was god’s gift, and now you’re claiming it was some dorky, self-effacing humor. Give the hamster some kibbles and just own up to reality.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Emily,

    I’m hoping Sue has nixed the Divorce Law post plans. If the MRA arrives, I’m gone.

    • I’m hoping Sue has nixed the Divorce Law post plans. If the MRA arrives, I’m gone.

      I find myself in quite a conundrum. I gave my word I would address Marriage 2.0, which I do believe is fair if I am going to promote marriage. On the other hand, I got a ton of emails and comments saying “We don’t like this!” And of course, I didn’t enjoy the battle.

      I’m working on a post called Eat Pray Love Divorce, which is not unusual, and I think I’ll come at it from that angle, and the fact that men fearing divorce is the third most common reason men give for delaying or avoiding marriage.

      Some of you may be scarce for that discussion, which is fine. In any case, I plan to keep comments on topic and disallow any repetition or vicious attacks.

  • VD

    Regarding my parents, I consider it pretty much impossible for my stepfather to cheat on my mum, as they spend every possible moment together (he is retired, otherwise he is around the house with me and my sister there). Adding to that, I cannot think of any other man less likely to cheat, but I don’t think you’ll take my word for it, as most girls think that way about their father.

    No, I’m quite happy to take your word for it. You’re fortunate to have a good relationship with him, as too many young women in your position don’t. I’m not questioning the anecdotal example of your family at all, merely pointing out that your personal experience of Scandinavian pseudo-marital relations is no more statistically relevant than mine, and therefore is a poor basis from which to draw any substantive conclusions.

  • tvmunson

    BREAKING SCIENTIFIC NEWS!

    Sorry to disrupt the discussion but did you see where scientists actuall created “invisiblity”? It was only for a nanosecond, but they did it. Point is if it can be done, it’s commercial application is inevtiable. My first thought was no need for bikinis. Nope-gals you’ll spray this on and your pussy, assline (I think that’s what you’re protecting with a floss-thong) nipples, areolas-all that; “no eyes, guys.”

    I know you gals are saying “but we like pretty bikinis, we don’t want nothing.” hey they’ll add flower prints to the invisiblity, plus if you’ve got the kind of body that looks good in one you’ll go with basic black which I’m sure they can do (white too-it’s jsut a reversal of the color emission process).

    But one question and, ladies, it’s a sensitive one. Is “camel toe” something a gal promotes, or avoids? Seriously don’t know. My wife was getting into her bathing suit and I saw her start playing with her nipples. I though it was “go” time; turns out she just wanted to rock some “high beams” for her suit. So would if invisible meant no toe,would that be good or bad?

    Like I said it’s a sensitive deal. And I’m a sensitive guy-sensitive as a urinal, and almost as discriminating.

    • @munson

      You’re making even less sense than usual right now. As for camel toe, it hurts like hell. With all we have to offer, it’s depressing to think that men want to see that as well 🙁

  • Anna

    @ JM
    No, clearly he thought his dick was God’s gift, it was not ironic (what man can be ironic about his own penis size?). But obviously he feels the need to boost his own confidence due to a complex, as is the case with many men in bed. I personally find it funny, but that has nothing to do with it. I wouldn’t say I found it funny, as mocking a guy about his dick is a step too far. Didn’t feel the need to anyway, the sex was good, so what does it matter.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Munson,

    Scientists have been at work on invisibility for years. They’ve been doing it with ultraviolet rays for years with success. The way they do it is to create a “metamaterial” composing of molecules that are smaller than light rays. This allows the light “bend” around the material. The same way that a river will flow around a giant rock. The “cloaked” object refracts rather than reflects light.

    Not sure it would work on just a set of tits. You’d probably have to cloak the whole woman. The Taliban would enjoy that.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    It doesn’t matter. But a woman who can have sex with a cocky guy who thinks his dick is god’s gift to some casual lover… AND think the sex was good…. turns my stomach. Norwegian guys must be wired differently.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Excellent post. As usual, very insightful and data-driven. I forget who it was on your last post (maybe Malia?) who said you weren’t qualified to comment because you weren’t in “the game” anymore, but as someone who absolutely is in the game, you’re way more on point, informed, and wise about it than she is.

    This also made me think pretty introspectively, especially the bit about “players” losing interest after having sex. I’ve had to struggle with this with my current GF. I love her company and really enjoy being around her, but purely sexually my desire definitely went down a notch after we’d first had sex, and I began to look more positively at other “options” who I would have “scored” lower than her BEFORE I slept with her. I thought this was purely based on my trip-ups about commitment, but now with this post I think it may have more to do with the last 2.5 years being a constant “on to the next one” mentality. So on a personal note, thanks again for the insight.

  • Anna

    @ Susan
    ““I know I may not look like much, but whatever I have is yours.””

    Hah! It’s not just the penis, the entire him is petite. But cute all the same. I know he thought I was way too good-looking for him, so if this little comment was a self-esteem boost, then so be it. I don’t care much if it was to consider himself as “the master” or having me as a servant. The way things were between us, I had the upper hand most of the time. If we changed that in bed, I have no problem with it. I know some people disagree with this, but one has to feel degraded for something to be degrading. If the guy wanting to be dominating in bed equals to degrading, we should ban light spanking and doggy style as well. But then everybody loses! 😀

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    It’s all cool. You just portrayed the comment much differently at first. And, you said, it caused you not to see him again. If you thought the comment merited not having any more sex with him, then… why did you have sex with him?

    But I’m coming at it from the angle of a person who does believe that casual sex is wrong… for me. And for anybody I want to involve myself with. So, idk, I guess to me the situation would be off from the start. As in, why are you fucking guys you don’t care enough to see exclusively anyway? And then fucking them still when they’ve said something that you’ve acknowledged made you never want to fuck them again…. except for that one time… which was good.

  • tvmunson

    @Susan #84

    Where did I say men wanted to see that?
    Read #78.

    • @munson

      Where did I say men wanted to see that?

      You didn’t, my mistake. Re the camel toe, that’s a sign that things are too tight. We’ve all rocked a pair of jeans that way at one time or another, and I can tell you it can take several days to recover…poor bean.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I know some people disagree with this, but one has to feel degraded for something to be degrading.

    Not sure this is true. I think that a prostitute degrades herself even if she doesn’t feel degraded. So does a drug user.

  • …men with high numbers of sex partners, but not men with low numbers of partners, experienced a decrease in their partner’s physical and sexual attractiveness following first-time sexual intercourse.

    This was my experience. After blowing my load, I felt compelled to leave and I HATED providing the girl with any sort of emotional intimacy afterwards. I often would give her a little intimacy if I wanted to see her again, but it was usually forced. If after banging a girl, I didn’t feel an instinctual desire to run away, I knew I liked her a great deal more than most girls.

    Here’s a list of some more double standards you might like to consider the next time you decide to broach the topic:

    http://9gag.com/gag/1574954

    Truth.

  • Anna

    @ JM
    I know you speak from a different standpoint (wait, what did Susan say about 8 ONS during the last summer? that is more than my total, bfs included), but I can give a quick clue:
    – I started seeing him at 18 (lost my virginity 1 year before, long wait), liked him, he lived in a different country, so never considered anything serious with him
    – sex was great and as I wasn’t seeing anyone else, saw him when I had the time
    – always had the passion and liking him, but started feeling something more.
    – decided I wanted someone to be with, realized that wasn’t him (from a combination of things, arrogant bed behavior being contributory).

  • Charm

    @Mike

    That sucks. I always want to believe the best in people. Im still young, and have be disappointed by people a lot but I find I still want to believe the best in them. I hope you don’t let your divorce screw with your happiness from this point on. Just hearing about divorce makes me want to never get married. 🙁

  • jess

    charm:
    “Trying to throw me off is like trying to shoo a fly from fresh dog shit. It ain’t happening’.”

    If I may so you have not picked the most flattering of comparisons there but I applaud the forcefulness of your views!

    Gudenuf:
    “That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.”

    Yes- I completely agree with you there

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Charm

    I wonder what these men are doing during the time they are being shunned. Im assuming this is most likely to happen during the late teen’s early to mid 20’s? Seems like these men would be forced to focus on school and their career instead of chasing women. If no one else wants one, I’ll take him.

    We learned, worked, and tried to improve ourselves. Often under the premise that we weren’t good enough to attract a woman, and had to do better. That it was our fault. Guess what? Not true.

    You mean to tell me you already have an IRA/a stable job/and savings for a house? At 30? Well…hello there.

    Hello, thanks for but no thanks. I worked for these assets; no one’s taking them away. Bye now.

    I hope American men don’t just give up. That would be sad. I’d be disappointed.

    More of us are giving up daily. It IS sad. But frankly, your disappointment no longer concerns us at all.

    @Mike

    Not to beat a dead horse, i just don’t think women understand just how deep the traumatic damage of being relegated to the sidelines for the entirety of a mans sexual peak really is. I still haven’t healed from that fully, and i’ve had 5+ years and 2.5 of those happily married, and it still haunts me as tho it were yesterday.

    Nailed it. Now imagine if you didn’t have those 5 years. (Congrats, by the way.)

  • Anna

    @ JM,
    yes but drug use is something you do to yourself and the entire shame is brought on by you. If someone says something to you, is it always up to them if it is degrading? If a friend of yours say something insulting to you when drunk or otherwise, and you find it just silly, doesn’t care and shrug, can he say later that he humiliated you? Or does one need to bring a panel of people to decide, if many enough say that you have reason to be ashamed, you are sentenced to be ashamed?
    I agree this is different from situation to situation, but I recall a friend of mine saying that her bf loved ejaculating on her and she did so because he loved it and “the juice is holy to him but about as sacred as porridge to me”.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yes, 8 ONSs. Stu(pi)d, right?

    Kidding. Yea, I went through some stuff this summer a while after my fiancee and I split. It was a mistake.

    Like I said about casual sex, it’s not a deal breaker to me. As long as someone’s decided that it’s not right for them. Though, you know, a huge number would be seriously off-putting.

    I just don’t get the bit about fucking someone who acts like an asshole. The way you portrayed things at first, this was the comment of an asshole. So, if that in fact was the case, and you fucked him anyway, then…. you know, blech. But if not, then whatever…

  • jess

    tvmunsen

    I have been reliably by certain men that camel-toe is ‘hot’

    guys are weird

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Idk. The juice being holy to your friend’s boyfriend sounds… well, if not pretty cocky, then just flat out bizarre. Probably he was degrading her in his mind. Maybe not though. My guess is that if he had a thing for it, then it was probably in her face. Sounds like Rivelino.

    If someone says something to you, it’s always up to you if it’s degrading. You either allow them to degrade you or you don’t. But, if someone says something that you think he intends to be degrading, and then you climb on his dick and fuck him immediately following…. then, yea, you’ve allowed yourself to be degraded.

  • Doug1

    Anna—

    I have no doubt men marry more in the US, but why they do so with the unfavourable settlements bitter twists is beyond me.

    There’s a lot of social pressure to marry at least among professionals and probably especially in big businesses in the US. Though that doesn’t really apply once you’ve been divorced. Then co-habiting with a woman doesn’t raise many eyebrows. Girl’s family is likely to try to pressure her/you though.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Dum dum dum….. Doug’s back.

  • Anna

    @ JM
    I never said he was an asshole, but I thought he had the potential to be a bit of a dork.
    In the heat of the moment I considered it a regular sexual outburst. Later on I thought it was simply silly. Much later on, I decided not seeing him again, mainly because he wasn’t the bf I was looking for. That is about as simple as I can put it. I considered him interested enough, nice enough and sexy enough to share a bed with, and I tend to finish what I started. Could say it was a mistake, but honestly I really don’t regret any sex I’ve had.

    I suppose this would all be easier if people weren’t in such a lively and unorganized mood when having sex. If when a girl went “spank me!”, you’d stop and think, “what did she mean by that?”.

    Well hey at least I haven’t had anonymous sex with 8 people 😀

  • Doug1

    Charm—

    Can’t believe people actually teased you about being a virgin. I often find that my perceptions about other people’s reality is often wrong.

    Guys get teased if they exit high school a virgin; they definitely will if they exist their freshman year in college that way, and few would probably admit it.

  • Ted D

    “I know some people disagree with this, but one has to feel degraded for something to be degrading.

    Not sure this is true. I think that a prostitute degrades herself even if she doesn’t feel degraded. So does a drug user.”

    Yeah, saying that something is only degrading if the subject thinks it is sounds a lot like moral relativism to me. I believe some things are degrading regardless of how the people involved feel. It is a personal decision obviously, as only *I* can know what *I* believe is degrading.

    So to me, yes a prostitute is degrading herself, as is a stripper, porn start, etc. A woman that allows herself to be used for a man’s pleasure only, even if she WANTS it, is still degrading herself. A guy that makes it his goal to bang as many women as possible regardless of quality or any other emotional connection is degrading himself. I can say the same for heavy drug use, heavy drinking, whatever. In short, if you are acting in ways that ONLY satisfy the physical needs without a higher purpose (in terms of sex/drug use/etc), there is a damn good chance it is degrading. Of course there are widely varying degrees of relevance here. And again, its a very personal list.

    And that is pretty close to the root of why women that have sex with asshole repel me. In that act, they chose to degrade themselves. And if they think so little of themselves, how will they ever respect me?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Actually, it was only anonymous with 4. Another girl I knew from a while back. And the other three weren’t one nighters. But they were casual.

    So, point taken.

  • Anna

    @ JM
    I didn’t climb on his dick after a comment I thought was degrading. It was mentioned regarding a sample of quotes Susan mentioned being typical of players or guys who are too into themselves. Perhaps players have more of a degrading personality, I don’t know. But I thought he was silly for being so into his tiny dick and consider it sacred. If he had said something “classically” degrading like “shut up bitch” things would of course be different. Sure, maybe he meant it degrading and I was a total fool and didn’t realize. Too bad his demeaning behavior didn’t get through OR I was degraded without my knowledge. I really don’t care.

  • Ted D

    Jess – “Gudenuf:
    “That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.”

    Yes- I completely agree with you there”

    Can you elaborate? I’m sure GE will later, but I’d like to know how you think this is changing? Again, in my circle of people (and yes I have acknowledged many times it IS a small circle) I don’t know of one single guy that is anything less that neutral in regards to a woman’s past partner count, and most are pretty put off by high numbers. And yes, at least one of them could be labelled a hypocrite as his number is pretty up there. That doesn’t change his opinion in the least, even when I pointed it out by the way…

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Rollo,

    So then what, you would say that Alpha can be defined by how a woman responds to you? If a woman feels like you had a certain level of dominance in the sack, then that makes you Alpha?

    I’m not sure I’m understanding you.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’m not trying to put you down, Anna. You don’t have to get defensive. If you didn’t find the comment degrading, then no, I would say you didn’t degrade yourself (beyond the fact of having had casual sex, of course… which I’m guilt of as well).

  • Jesus Mahoney

    And Rollo,

    Do you follow Kate Perry? Isn’t she some, like, idk, teeny-bopper idol?

  • Ted D

    “Guys get teased if they exit high school a virgin; they definitely will if they exist their freshman year in college that way, and few would probably admit it.”

    Straight up, I was getting slack from some of my male peers at 16 for still being a virgin. Although before my 17th birthday I took care of that issue, one of my closest friends was a virgin until he was 20, and he took shit ALL the time from other guys. Not me, I thought they were all assholes and suggested he should stick to his guns. He didn’t, got some girl knocked up, and made a mess of his life for about 5 years. We lost touch, but I think he finally pulled it together and got back on track.

  • Wudang

    The female commenter Hitori on fastseduction.com says that men with little ability to get sex seek tension release while men with easy access to sex seek tension buildup as they already can get their tension released. That fits with the science here. So when a man with few partners gets sex it triggers more emotions and bonding in him because sex per se is so valuable to him. A more sexually experienced man normally do not have this reaction but presumably DO get it when he experiences proper tension buildup first. I see a few ways that can happen. One is that the woman is more attractive than the women he usually gets with or otherwise more attractive to him because of the way he connects with her or the total LTR potential package she presents. Another way is that the woman holds out longer for the sex and otherwise makes him work to get her. Otherwise work for it in this context does not have to mean “beta style work for it” but fight with every player skill he has to just barely get her (in his mind). A third way is to just come of as selectively hard to get as Susan talked about in a previous post.

    From reading at PUA forums it seems to me that for the players that get women in the 8-10 range it is more the emotional connection rather than physical hotness that actually hooks him and makes him fall. Women somewhere in that range are generally accessible to him for sex anyway so thats no prize. Factors such as great in bed femininity and good attitudes etc. are necessary and often mentioned as important but when they talk about the one their with or the one that left or they felt they had to leave but miss it is generally some sort of emotional connection that separated the girl rather than looks.

    By the way, I highly recomend looking up Hitoris archieves at fastseduction as she is, possibly, the only really highly regarded and trusted female poster about pickup. I put quite a lot of weight on what specific women here that have earned my respect in terms of views on pickup that I agree with but I still always expect them to make judgment errors from time to time because women are programmed to not see certain of these things clearly. From what I have read of Hitori she is the only one that seems to be as good and consistent in analyzing pickup as the best male posters.

  • Doug1

    Jesus Mahoney–

    Not sure this is true. I think that a prostitute degrades herself even if she doesn’t feel degraded.

    That’s just feminist and (some) Christian ideology. Read Maggie McNeill. She certainly disagrees. She’s a former New Orleans escort who’s college educated, retired, married (to a former client), very intelligent and an excellent writer. She blogs about all aspects of higher end prostitution, and sometimes about myths about most of the lower end too. Her blog is titled “The Honest Courtesan”.

    • @Doug1

      Feminism celebrates sex work, it doesn’t consider it the least bit degrading.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Maybe I’m mixing things up. I thought Kate Perry was some pop star who’s marketed to 13 yr old girls.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Dough,

    I’m neither a Christian nor a feminist, but anybody who sells her coochie for cash certainly degrades herself in my book.

  • Doug1

    Jesus Mahoney–

    The whole “false consciousness” think that feminist trot out for call girls that don’t feel their work is necessarily degrading (if they don’t let it be), is pure Marxist derived dogma.

  • Sassy6519

    I just thought of something regarding Katy Perry. One of her songs is titled “Thinking of You”, and it is very similar to “The One That Got Away”. Here are the lyrics.

    “Comparisons are easily done
    Once you’ve had a taste of perfection
    Like an apple hanging from a tree
    I picked the ripest one, I still got the seed

    You said move on, where do I go?
    I guess second best is all I will know

    ‘Cause when I’m with him I am thinking of you
    (Thinking of you, thinking of you)
    Thinking of you, what you would do
    If you were the one who was spending the night
    (Spending the night, spending the night)
    Oh, I wish that I was looking into your eyes

    You’re like an Indian Summer in the middle of winter
    Like a hard candy with a surprise center
    How do I get better once I’ve had the best?
    You said there’s tons of fish in the water, so the waters I will test

    He kissed my lips, I taste your mouth, oh!
    (Taste your mouth)
    He pulled me in, I was disgusted with myself

    ‘Cause when I’m with him I am thinking of you
    [ From : http://www.elyrics.net/read/k/katy-perry-lyrics/thinking-of-you-lyrics.html ]
    (Thinking of you, thinking of you)
    Thinking of you, what you would do
    If you were the one who was spending the night
    (Spending the night, spending the night)
    Oh, I wish that I was looking into

    You’re the best, and yes, I do regret
    How I could let myself let you go
    Now, now the lesson’s learned
    I touched it, I was burned
    Oh, I think you should know!

    ‘Cause when I’m with him I am thinking of you
    (Thinking of you, thinking of you)
    Thinking of you, what you would do
    If you were the one who was spending the night
    (Spending the night, spending the night)
    Oh, I wish that I was looking into your, your eyes
    Looking into your eyes, looking into your eyes

    Oh, won’t you walk through?
    And bust in the door and take me away?
    Oh, no more mistakes
    ‘Cause in your eyes I’d like to stay, stay”

    Hypergamy and pining after a lost alpha are all over that one. At least she is consistent, I will say that much.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yea, I’m sure that’s it, Doug. People who peddle their asses for money really aren’t selling themselves short.

  • Ted D

    “That’s just feminist and (some) Christian ideology. Read Maggie McNeill. She certainly disagrees. She’s a former New Orleans escort who’s college educated, retired, married (to a former client), very intelligent and an excellent writer. She blogs about all aspects of higher end prostitution, and sometimes about myths about most of the lower end too. Her blog is titled “The Honest Courtesan”.”

    That may be Doug1, but it is still how I roll and have no plans on changing it. I’ve said before that a lot of my morality is based in Catholic teachings, so you are probably right. Still doesn’t change anything in the least. All it really does is say to me that people who are OK with casual sex are probably less moral and ethical than I am. Of course that is probably not true for everyone, but that is kinda the view I hold already.

    I’m sure many will fault me for that view, saying I’m “looking down my nose” or sitting on “my high horse”. That’s fine. I’m good with being viewed as a moral snob. I’ve said before, I will judge everyone using my own criteria, and no matter how much wailing and gnashing of teeth occurs, that isn’t going to change. I don’t have a problem with it because I don’t allow my judgments to change how I treat people. In fact, as an introvert, I don’t deal directly with people often anyway, so I rarely even have to filter my interactions based on my judgments.

    What that means is: just because I’m nice to a person, doesn’t mean I don’t have a rather low opinion of them. I imagine it comes from the “don’t hate the sinner, hate the sin” line of thinking.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Rollo,

    Okay, then yes, I’d agree with you. If a woman’s last lover was her ideal man, and her next lover is not… then, yea, he’s got a lot to worry about. Or not. He should just find a new woman.

  • Ted D

    Rollo – man your kinda depressing me here… So, what you are saying is, the more Alpha’s a woman has had sex with, the MORE Alpha a guy will need to get and keep her?!

    If there was ever a reason to skip promiscuous women for LTRs, this is it!

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted,

    Not to worry, there’s no such thing as alpha.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    Some of you may be scarce for that discussion, which is fine. In any case, I plan to keep comments on topic and disallow any repetition or vicious attacks.

    You certainly allowed vicious attacks on me, such as by munson, and cheered them on. You left up his last attack on me which was about all in shouting all caps, calling me “a liar” and saying he “has my number”, and that “I own you [me] now pussy”, then closed off comments before I could respond. I think he was drunk.

    • @Doug1

      There is no good way of closing comments without leaving some people hanging. It’s an arbitrary decision re who gets the last word.

      In any case, I do not plan to allow vicious attacks on the divorce post. I’ll be wielding the comment machete on that one.

  • Jesus,

    Not to worry, there’s no such thing as alpha.

    There´s no such thing as a spoon either, but Im having my cereal with it.

  • Ted D

    JM – yeah I get where you are coming from there. The descriptions alpha/beta/whatever are very limiting. But, the takeaway is if a woman spends years banking really dominant guys, it is going to take a VERY dominant guy to get and keep her around. That is depressing, especially of the woman keeps going for the more assholean types because she needs to escalate the dominant rush she is looking for. It really is a bit like drug addiction.

    Former drug addiction is one of my instant deal-breakers. I would never put someone down for being addicted and getting clean, but it proves they have an addictive personality and possibly issues with impulse control. Clearly bad new.

  • Anna

    @ Ted D
    I agree that drug use and prostitution is degrading. But I believe there is a mutual feeling of degrading there – drug addicts are usually ashamed on some level of their illness, although some would have us believe many women choose to be prostitutes, mostly they do not. Even so, they need the money to cover up expenses they are not proud of (like drug use or luxury habits they cannot afford). Even if a prostitute claim to be secure in her choice, she will most likely not have told friends, family or gone public with it – which means she’s ashamed.
    I still think that a lot of guys find degrading treatment bad because they are more likely to identify with the guy. It is more common for men to degrade women – sexually, at work, through violence – than the other way around. In addition to that, once a situation like that has taken place, men are more likely to imagine the guy’s mind, and you find it degrading – I assume – because his sense of domination and wanting to put a woman down is something you on some level recognize in yourself. Otherwise you couldn’t automatically make that assumption. I’m not saying it’s bad or unnatural – to rape or being raped is actually two of the main fantasies buried deep inside most men and women, sometimes coming to life when we sleep.
    Speaking of prostitution, I don’t know if “Secret diary of a call girl” has been shown in the US. It is based on a biography of a real life call girl, a woman with a Phd, who says she did it for fun. Anyway, there is a scene where Belle, the call girl, has been hired by a man and he has asked her to pee on him. From her facial expression we get that she is slightly uncomfortable with this idea, but she finishes the job. We can probably all agree that being peed on is a definite degrading treatment. The scene is great because it puzzles the audience and makes you think about who is being degraded. Maybe both, if there is such a thing. But I do believe that if two people are actually degrading each other, that is another kind of degrading behavior. It is not humiliation, role play or showing domination (which we are talking about in terms of dirty talk), it is simply two people practicing a behavior which is frowned upon by some, or many. As when you mention a guy sleeping around – that is your opinion, mine too actually, but not everyone’s. In the case of prostitution, some would say their both degraded, many would say only the woman, some would say mostly the man, as he is giving up his hard earned money to a woman who pretends to feel a desire for him, and fulfilling a need he is not capable of fulfilling on his own (hence feeling like less of a man). Prostitution is a special case, as it consists of two actors wanting to be the best man (getting laid) and woman (being desirable) they can be.

  • Wudang

    Rollo:

    “It’s not a numbers game, it’s an Alpha game.”

    The general promiscuity is still a factor. If you meet your wife in her late twenties and by that time she has never had casual sex with anyone that pretty much rules out cheating through casual encounters. No chance of cheating during work travels or grrrrrrrls night out helps a lot. There are other aspects to this as well such as high number correlates with not being able to delay gratification (at least with regards to sex/romance) and that indicates it will be difficult for her to discipline herself to reach the goals of long term benefits of being faithful by sacrificing short term gratification in terms of cheating. A lower number in my mind indicates a far grater ability to get through a bad period in a relationship without cheating or leaving. Most people will need that ability to make a LTR work. IF you are the most alpha guy she has been with that is the most important probably but your job will be probably be easier and the odds better if her general number is down.

  • Anna

    Ah stuck in moderation.

    @ Susan, is it possible to edit posts?

    • @Anna

      Sorry, no edit function. The comment threads function much better without the bells and whistles, I’m afraid.

  • Ted D

    Wudang – surely. Especially when you consider that many of the men in the casual sex parade are already alpha/dominant/assholes. The more men a woman has had sex with, the more likely she has had sex with alphas.

    And now it is a numbers game again. 🙂

  • Doug1

    …men with high numbers of sex partners, but not men with low numbers of partners, experienced a decrease in their partner’s physical and sexual attractiveness following first-time sexual intercourse.

    How I feel after first sex with a new girl really depends on the girl. If it’s a rather hardened slut esp. if she’s not so good in bed, though they usually are good if they feel like being good, then yeah I’ll tend to feel this way. If she’s more innocent and I really blow her mind and she gets all emotionally into me, especially if I otherwise like her a lot, then I tend to not feel this way.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Mike

    Damn…I jumped ahead to comment earlier. Didn’t have the chance to finish reading the list until now. Just saw your divorce mention.

    First thing – sorry to hear about it. I hope it goes as smoothly as possible. If you need advice, I can point you to some resources.

    Second thing – My congrats were meant for the 5 happy years you had with the woman. Though I could also congratulate you for getting out of a bad situation and back to a freer life!

    @Susan

    I find myself in quite a conundrum. I gave my word I would address Marriage 2.0, which I do believe is fair if I am going to promote marriage. On the other hand, I got a ton of emails and comments saying “We don’t like this!” And of course, I didn’t enjoy the battle.

    I thought you decided what was posted here? If this blog’s bowing to pseudo-feminist shaming, that would be quite sad.

    Personally, I find the whole anti-MRA thing quite laughable. I could be considered an MRA (though I prefer speaking on MGTOW here). They can rail on MRAs all they want…just looks bad on them.

    Anyway, on topic now.
    “While women often prefer men who have sexual options, and consequently some sexual experience, they would do well do avoid promiscuous men.”
    This makes a lot of sense, considering the player/invisible men dynamic. However it’s up against a lot of opposing factors: a woman’s SMP uncertainty, feminist dogma, a man’s confidence/game, physical attractiveness judgements, etc.
    Can’t think of a solution right now; just wanted to chip in.

    • @Chris

      I thought you decided what was posted here? If this blog’s bowing to pseudo-feminist shaming, that would be quite sad.

      Of course I decide, but I often ask readers for feedback and I always consider it. It really wasn’t a case of feminist shaming, I don’t think. Some just found the tenor of the debate rather intense and sometimes unpleasant, and they let me know.

      As I said, I gave my word and I will put up a post early next week about Marriage 2.0. It has quickly become clear that the topic is massive, so I plan to run a series of occasional articles. The first will introduce men’s view of marriage as risky, and the effect of that on the marriage rate. For most of my readers, what’s needed is a primer – the whole concept of EPL, for example, will be new.

  • tvmunson

    Jess #98 It’s munson.
    1) men like “camel toe”-agree; only I didn’t say it in post Susan alluded to
    2_guys are weird-true; Are you suggesting that women for the most part ignore a guys “moose knuckle”?

    PROOF OF INHERENT DISTINCTION BETWEEN MEN & WOMEN

    Fire was discovered somehwere between 750,000 (outside) and 400,000 (generally accpeted). In all the multitides of generations since it’s discovery, do you think it ever occurred to a group of girls t light a fart?

    I rest my case.

  • Wudang

    JM:

    “How exactly does one “overalpha” someone in bed?”

    I didn`t mean overalpha in bed but overalpha in terms of attraction/dominance.

    But I guess by being a BDSM dungeon master you could definitively overalpha someone in bed in some sense but not sure how big impact being more dominant in bed will have on overall attraction. For the most part increase it a fair bit but unless one is dominant to a certain degree outside the bedroom I think the effect is limmited although valuable.

  • Mike

    I almost feel like i should start blogging. But im not there yet. However i wanted to touch on something Yohami said earlier, in another thread i can’t find.

    To the effect of : It’s not a woman’s place to teach a man how to be dominant / alpha / whatever.

    He’s quite right.. so im wondering who is responsible. Nature vs. Nurture?

    If you took a baby boy and threw him into a jungle alone… he’s dead in minutes when he goes to play with the tiger. Not cool.

    Guess dad picks up the slack.

    But what if dad isn’t around? (single mom)

    What if dad is a cuckolded beta shmuck?

    What if dad is a strong but suplicating beta?

    What if all you see is TV shows like Home Improvement where Tim Allen is a moron who’s always making his wife mad with his bumbling bad behavior, and always has to defer to her, lest he crawl of to ‘always good advice’ Wilson on how to stop being a stupid guy and get in touch with his feminine side to soothe the ruffles, become more beta and all is forgiven.

    I really need to sit down and figure out just where men are supposed to discover their ‘alphaness’ lies. It obviously isn’t Nature, else all men would alpha up like puberty or something.

  • Doug1

    Rollo Thomassi—

    @Ted, you’re missing the point, it’s not the promiscuity, it’s the lasting impact of the men she’s slept with. If your wife’s romantically nostalgic for the high school quarter back (or the One that got away) who took her virginity at 18 does it matter if she’s slept with 12 chumps up until she met her beta provider husband?

    Yeah I read your most recent blog post on that.

    I think it’s both. Both total numbers and how much more sexually attractive the hottest guy she’s ever slept with is than her beta husband. I think both will tend to deaden the ability/tendency for girls to fall adoringly into intense love for her husband in the initial “honeymoon” limerance stage.

    Actually the first factor is I think a little more complicated and nuanced than simply hottest guy she ever slept with once. Because of the way female sexuality and bonding/falling in love works, and having perceived great sex when really in love, I don’t think a ONS with 35 yo George Clooney is gonna ruin her, but her having an intense fling with him, in which she falls intensely in love and perceives/believes he’s falling for her too, just more slowly, and then he breaks her heart by dumping her or keeping on seeing two other girls without hiding it much, THAT will leave a lasting impact.

  • Emily

    >> It’s not a woman’s place to teach a man how to be dominant / alpha / whatever.

    This is true, but at the same time there are things that a woman can do if she ‘s losing attraction/wants to see more “alpha” in the relationship.

    I’ve said this before, but I really think that if you treat a guy like a (good) Alpha then he’ll start acting more like one.

    Although this probably only works if the foundation is already there.

  • Wudang

    I think an important factor is that the lower partner count guys likely view most or all their lays as potential girlfriend material (by necessity or because of views on casual sex). HTe higher partner count guys will we most women as potential short term conquests or at best potential fuckbuddies even before the sex and so attraction will diminish once the sex is over as they aren`t really looking for more. But a few women they will look at as LTR potential and probably not get dimished attraction for. The lower partner count guys might still get exactly the same reaction towards a woman as the player often has if he is certain a woman will only be for casual sex. Such as if on vacation or he views her as not hot enough or too sluty or there are other dealbreakers. In studies of this of course high partner count guys will have a higher average of loss of attraction because they so often go to bed with women they already view as only casual sex potential. That does not mean they have lost the general ability to maintain attraction or that this mechanism plays a part once a woman is viewed as LTR potential as evidenced by what Doug1 says.

    Another possibility is that high testosterone in itself is what creates this effect. The more testosterone the less pairbonding. Betas with low testosterone would hence have a stronger pairbonding reaction just like a woman regardless of partnercount.

    I think this all ties in with womens desire for a rather aloof and cold high testosterone man that gets emotionally connected only to her. His masculinity and access to sex makes sex itself not pairbonding enough but the emotions she can generate in him by being the most attractive or through the emotional connection is what makes him stay in her mind and that is probably exactly right.

  • Doug1

    Wudang—

    The general promiscuity is still a factor. If you meet your wife in her late twenties and by that time she has never had casual sex with anyone that pretty much rules out cheating through casual encounters. No chance of cheating during work travels or grrrrrrrls night out helps a lot. There are other aspects to this as well such as high number correlates with not being able to delay gratification (at least with regards to sex/romance) and that indicates it will be difficult for her to discipline herself to reach the goals of long term benefits of being faithful by sacrificing short term gratification in terms of cheating. A lower number in my mind indicates a far grater ability to get through a bad period in a relationship without cheating or leaving. Most people will need that ability to make a LTR work.

    IF you are the most alpha guy she has been with that is the most important probably but your job will be probably be easier and the odds better if her general number is down.

    I agree with this. Also if she has lowish numbers it indicates that she hasn’t bought into sex positive feminism, with all it’s other pernicious anti male and pro divorce for any ole reason ideas, but instead has more traditional ideas of morality, decorum, and what’s attractive long term in women.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    There is no good way of closing comments without leaving some people hanging. It’s an arbitrary decision re who gets the last word.

    Then you should at least have long since taken down munson’s last comment. I don’t see how it could have been any more violative of you comments policies. As well it was based on the absurd premise that all non litigators two decades out of law school would know the answer to his little federal civil procedure riddle.

    • @Doug1

      You deserve the award for the most off-topic comments on a blog, so I don’t think you’re in a position to slap my knuckles re the comment policy. I often relax it. We all know how munson communicates, and he was totally fed up with you. So was everyone else in that thread.

      Anyway, onward. Let’s not rehash a thread that is dead and buried.

  • @Umslo

    The rest just ignored you and continued chatting merrily…like nothing happened. Does this sound right to you? It certainly doesn’t to me.

    We love Mike, but in all honesty, we have heard Mike’s story many times. Most, if not all, have offered words of support many times. Charm is new. Please don’t extrapolate from this, you’re barking up the wrong tree here.

    I’ve deleted your comment, as I routinely delete all comments of the “America is a dunghole” variety.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    Feminism celebrates sex work, it doesn’t consider it the least bit degrading.

    There’s a big split among feminists on that. In fact that’s really how sex positive or third wave feminism differentiated itself from other feminists. Sex positive feminists said that sex work, including stripping, porn and prostitution could be empowering if done the right way and she’s in control. Feminists such as Cartherine McKinnon said it was inherently degrading, a product of the patriarchy, and that any belief by strippers or escorts that it isn’t necessarily degrading is the result of “false consciousness” put there by men, naturally.

    • @Doug1

      There’s a big split among feminists on that. In fact that’s really how sex positive or third wave feminism differentiated itself from other feminists. Sex positive feminists said that sex work, including stripping, porn and prostitution could be empowering if done the right way and she’s in control.

      Correct, and the losers picked up their toys and went home. The third wave is positive on sex work.

  • Charm

    @Chris_in_CA

    I’d never take advantage of a man who had his life together. I too plan on having all of those things before 30, so I guess it’s me projecting my idea of responsibly on to other people. I’d prefer to marry an equal rather than being one of those gals who tries to “marry up”.

    Im assuming you’re one of those guys who was on the sideline for a while? Have you had women all of a sudden become interested in you and your stability? I too would pull the “Thanks, but no thanks card”.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    There´s no such thing as a spoon either, but Im having my cereal with it.

    You should try making the spoon jealous by eating your cereal with an alpha. Tell us how it goes.

  • Sassy6519

    We love Mike, but in all honesty, we have heard Mike’s story many times. Most, if not all, have offered words of support many times. Charm is new. Please don’t extrapolate from this, you’re barking up the wrong tree here.

    Thank you Susan. I was really tempted to write him the same thing, but I just let it go. It’s funny how new commenters come on here and make assumptions about the regular commenters without even doing their homework by reading some of the older posts.

  • VD

    Susan, it might interest you to know Roissy has a new post citing a scientific report that is relevant to the discussion here. It underlines my point that contra the occasional assertion to the contrary, women find high bodycounts attractive.

    “However, only sociosexuality added incremental predictive power over and above physical attributes in the current study. Unexpected was that sociosexuality emerged as a relative powerful predictor of men’s popularity to women, particularly because women largely expressed a long-term mating interest. A possible explanation is that male sociosexuality indicates a history of successful mating experience or mating skills that are attractive to women.”

    In summary, no woman turns down a man she finds attractive due to his bodycount being too high. She might use it as an ex post facto rationale to justify her decision to turn him down, but it’s not going to be the causal factor. My suspicion is that most women work around this by asking the question afterwards; if she’s doing it before, she’s probably looking for an excuse to disqualify someone who she feels is borderline.

    • @VD

      The point I made in this post was that women need to know more about men with high bodycounts. If, as the study here indicated, men with high partner counts find each new woman less attractive after sex, then those men are high risk for long-term mating. I don’t deny that there may still be many takers, but one of the things women need to learn is the risk of marrying a promiscuous man, or even falling in love with one. The study that you’ve cited re female partners via the Social Pathologist also found that partner count is predictive of divorce among males, though the number is far less sensitive. Promiscuity in both sexes has predictive value.

      Re the study, link here:

      http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/per.768/pdf

      First, all studies have limitations, but this one has several that make it less applicable to HUS, in my view:

      1. It’s a German study. In my experience, there is a distinct national character to the German personality. I don’t know if this is true wrt mating, but I’ve read that German porn, including amateur porn, is the most explicit.
      2. The subjects were aged 18-54. The SMP is changing rapidly, and the “boomerang” effect of women judging manwhores harshly is primarily focused in the 18-25 group. Only 2% of males in college have had 25+ partners, so we’re talking about a relatively small number of males that might meet the popular description of “manwhore.”
      3. The authors acknowledge that speed dating studies capture only a brief snapshot of interaction, and that probabilities decreased sharply as the participants moved from the speed dating event to further contact, sexual intercourse, and a possible romantic relationship.

      So what we can say is that women have a strong positive first impression of men who display confidence and assertiveness, which correlates in the study to high sociosexuality scores. That is hardly surprising, and very much in keeping with everything we know about sociosexual dominance and Game. However, women had no access to the actual data re casual sex attitudes or experience, so they wouldn’t have been able to judge bodycounts. That was not explored, and it’s very possible that women may have responded differently over time to men who had a bodycount of 10 vs. 50 or 100.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Keep your head in the sand Jesus, it’ll all be over soon. Alpha is a concept.

    Alpha is a position in the social hierarchy. It’s been turned into a “concept” by misguided people trying to get laid while avoiding being chumped. And I got that Perry was a vehicle, but I think using some teen girl idol as a vehicle for describing what life is like for normal, mature people… is kinda dumb.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    The feminists who are periodically on and on about “sex trafficking” definitely don’t think of prostitution as empowering, nor did the feminists in Sweden and Norway who made prostitution illegal for men to buy, but decriminalized women selling it.

    (Only instance I can think of where the seller of something illegal is not held to the same or higher level of punishment as the buyer of it. ) Weird feminist ideology around prostitutes being “victims” of the patriarchy and false consciousness.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    I think Munson would get that award, tbh. But Doug knows how to derail a thread. He’s very good at it.

  • Ted D

    “Sex positive feminists said that sex work, including stripping, porn and prostitution could be empowering if done the right way and she’s in control.”

    yeah well knowing how much feminism contributed to all the lies I was fed growing up regarding women and relationships, I’m sure you will understand that I see this viewpoint as utter bullshit.

    I’m sure many strippers feel “empowered”, but it is more likely a result of her sexual need to feel “desired” by men and not that the work is in any way noble. I’m beginning to realize that for some women, having men slobber at the thought of her naked is a real turn-on. I can’t see why though. Most men would jump at the chance to bang any normal decent woman if she were naked in front of him and willing. (By that I mean a naked 5 or 6 would have no trouble finding a willing man to have sex with) Having a guy turned on by your body is nothing to be proud of. In fact, it takes very little in the ways of real beauty to give a guy a chubby. Show him some naked boobs or ass, and you generally get a reaction.

    The error here is thinking that somehow having men turned on by you makes you special or empowered. It doesn’t. It just means that men are generally horny and are very easily aroused by visual cues. It doesn’t matter if its your ass or a strippers ass, its still a naked ass.

  • Really enjoyed Rollo’s list of double standards. Though I consider the first 7 to be disadvantages for women.

    One thing I can appreciate about 3rd wave feminism is that now men can feel the sting of the double standard while women have revealed themselves to be a bunch of assholes. The world is never going to be perfect, but I’m digging the drama.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    For most of my readers, what’s needed is a primer – the whole concept of EPL, for example, will be new.

    I can’t get as upset as many manosphere bloggers and commenters do at EPL, because there 1) were no kids and 2) there was reportedly no divorce theft. She made more than him apparently. Still it was a ten year marriage and in some ways perhaps some of the best years of his life to her (which is what women left in similar circumstances are always saying). Still he can now search for a younger and more commitment minded model.

  • Charm

    @ Doug1 #104

    I would exclaim “THATS NOT RIGHT”, but I don’t think my one voice would really be significant.

    @Kane

    I like that link you posted. I shook my head as I read all of those double standards. I don’t think I agree with any of them, but I recognize that society as a whole gives women a lot more breaks than men. I feel like that chart should be distributed to women so they know how good they have it. I think if the tables were turned and women were constantly being chastised, and criticized they too would understand where men are coming from.

  • Wudang

    Mike, I have noticed that it is very common for tribes to have rites of passage where the boys spend periods of time only in the company of men being thought how to be men. Or they have periods of instruction by older males while living with the whole tribe or in an all male group and then spend some time totally alone such as during an Australian aboriginal walkabout. I think the reason for this is that women as a group can not teach men to be men. The solipism of both genders necesitates some form of gender exclusive training. THe PUA phenomenon and the manosphere is a way of acomplishing this in the modern world. First the males only taled to each other and thats when they got it right. Now they are including women in the discussion but in a sense do not give them voting power. Because the manosphere/puas have the lowest possible regard for womens ability to understand the dynamics of attraction, the SMP, and what it means to be a man and what is important to a man in life etc. the guys here will listen to women to her if there is sense in what they say but they do not give them ANY authority in the way that men in the west used to do in these matters. The manosphere only considers a female voice once it has earned respect, like many women here, but the voice is still judged only to the extent it makes sense within the existing paradigm. THere are always a ton of guys ready to defend a very coherent male persepctive. No one here defers to womens opinion anymore like they used to and if some do there are so many that don`t and will hold to their views I think the correct view is that PUAs/the manosphere is able to maintain its function as an all male zone/male exlusive rite of passage to become a man while still bringing the women into the discussion. I am pretty sure in tribes that have these all male initiations/trainings there is still a lot of communication with the women in the tribe about how intergender relations are supposed to function and this is important for the society to function well. But because of gender differences and female programming to pull in beta direction it is key that the males seperate themselves to some extent and agree by themselves in a community of only men on what the policy of men are and then just do that regardless of what women think. I think all succesfull societies needs to make something like that work.

    In the west women finally got the ability to define all these things and then everything went shit. It is extremely common amongst traditional tribes all across the world (especially in the Amazon I think) to have legends about there having been a time when the women where in power but they abused it and so now men have teh power and are excluded from learning certain secret things that are thought in all male initiations. That might actually have been true and reflect a transition from a matrilinear/matriarchal structure (those tribes tends to have a lot of similarities with todays SMP and dynamics in the west today) and patriarchy that happened a long time ago in amongst the ancestors of these tribes.

    So in sum it is the responsibility of men to make boys men and to get this done men should deceide between themselves without giving women a “metaphorical vote” on how while still communicating with women about the issues and having care for their needs. Captain and first officer mode in a sense. Men must find the key part for their leadership and direction in themselves and then just command the direction. That is the yin yang dynamic that works in a relationship between a single man and a single woman and I am certain it holds up in society as well. The laws of yin and yang are the same anywhere they are applied.

  • Ted D

    “So in sum it is the responsibility of men to make boys men and to get this done men should deceide between themselves without giving women a “metaphorical vote” on how while still communicating with women about the issues and having care for their needs.”

    And this is a big one. Even if a father is in the home, he isn’t going to teach his son how to be a man if he follows feminist dogma. Woman should have a say in how their sons are taught, but I tend to believe it should be a very SMALL say when it comes to teaching a boy to be a man. Just as men should only have a small say in how their daughters are raised to be women.

    Of course, knowing that much of the female sexual drive is subconscious and rather complicated, maybe women don’t know enough about themselves to do their daughters justice.

  • Charm

    @Sassy

    I think that I misread Mikes comment when he mentioned that he was currently in a relationship for 2.5 years. I guess I assumed he was happy and it was working out. I had no idea it was ending. And you’re right, I am new here, but I’ve been lurking for months now and have read almost all of Susan’s and thousands of comments and no, I don’t know everything everyone here has ever written.

    @Mike

    I apologize for assuming anything about your relationship and in turn forcing your clear it up thus telling everyone about the state of your relationship. It was none of my business.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Charm

    Susan says you’re new, so welcome. I’m an MGTOW (google is your friend) in my early 30s. I’ve put up a few comments around these parts to that effect.

    I’d never take advantage of a man who had his life together. I too plan on having all of those things before 30, so I guess it’s me projecting my idea of responsibly on to other people. I’d prefer to marry an equal rather than being one of those gals who tries to “marry up”.

    Im assuming you’re one of those guys who was on the sideline for a while? Have you had women all of a sudden become interested in you and your stability? I too would pull the “Thanks, but no thanks card”.

    Let’s see if I can give some background that’s still relevant to this double-standard topic. (I don’t like derailing post discussions.)

    I think it was late 2010 when I went on a date. I met the girl friend-cubed style (friend of a friend-of-a-friend) at a small gathering/game night. I pretty much guessed that she was interested; she never gave many indicators. But she agreed to a date, so I tried.

    Since we had common ground (board & card games) we discussed those while waiting on dinner. (Moron me back then, trying to treat a woman nicely.) She asked me if I talked about these with other girls “instead of video games.”

    I off-handedly remarked that I wasn’t dating any other girls at the moment.

    Big mistake. That was a shit-test, and I failed it. (In my defense, I only knew OF game then, and almost nothing about its workings.)

    But I could tell that was the wrong answer. She clammed up. The air between us went cold. After dinner she gave an excuse and left fast.

    Because I didn’t talk about a bunch of other girls I was seeing – while on a date with one! – whatever interest she may have had shattered. She saw me as far too beta. I couldn’t figure it out at the time. It is only in hindsight that I’m aware of the reasons why it happened.

    In answer to your earlier question about women all of a sudden becoming interested in me? Yes, it’s been happening for a couple years now. Women who laughed in my face years ago are popping up on my Facebook, wanting to come see me.

    I am MGTOW partially because I know why this happens now. Partially due to the legal environment men face today (of which I have seen multiple examples firsthand). If a woman comes along & is interested, I might consider dating her. I would need some damn good reasons though. I’m talking will-risk-bankruptcy good.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Chris,

    Maybe you’re misinterpreting what went wrong on the date.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Charm

    Don’t worry Charm. My ire wasn’t directed towards you. It was directed towards Umpagalopas (whatever his name is) for insinuating that the female commenters didn’t care about Mike’s situation because we didn’t offer up apologies this time around. Had he read some of the previous threads, he would know that almost everyone has offered Mike their sympathies, at some point or another, regarding his situation.

  • Chris_in_CA

    I can’t say with 100% certainty of course. She didn’t give any explanation; just a LJBF when I called later on. This seems the most likely explanation to me now, looking back on it.

  • Anna

    @ Ted D
    I have wondered too what is empowering for women about selling sex when they could have gotten laid anyway. Although it takes little for a man to get horny, a prostitute likes to believe she is a better lay because a man is willing to pay so much (she is in reality just available, but whatever you tell yourself..), she is sleeping with a man who is possibly not capable of getting laid otherwise and who will be very thankful and extra turned on. She has also the idea of getting good at what she does, and if she has many customers a day, the admiration and sexual validation keeps coming. This highly depends on the country though, in Scandinavian countries, the prostitutes are mainly foreign women without a residence permit who just needs the money. (@ Doug : hence the law, as the prostitutes in Norway are mainly part of a trafficking system).

    Prostitution is a bigger problem in Norway today than before. A part of that is immigration and women arriving from poorer countries, but the attitudes I blame feminism for.
    The gender roles have become so similar work-wise and family-wise in Norway, that the only differences between the gender left are the sexual ones. Femininity/masculinity has become MORE important after the femininization (I call that a word now) of the country, not less. Many men feel like little men if they’re not having sex, many women feel like little women if they’re not being desired (on a regular basis).

    @ Doug, the law on prostitution in Norway is actually non functioning. There is no prison sentence, only a $1000 fine, which is very little in such a wealthy country. The chief of police claimed the amount of buying/selling sex hasn’t gone down, Norwegian men bring the $1000 in cash when they go out to pick up girls, so that they’ll be able to pay upfront.

  • Doug1

    Jesus Mahoney—

    Alpha is a position in the social hierarchy.

    That’s what it is for zoologists, who study e.g. chimpanzee and gorilla hierarchies, and so on, which is where the term arose. For those animals the social hierarchy and the sexual access one are pretty much the same thing. Things are more complicated than that in modern humans operating in advanced post industrial societies.

    The social hierarchy, e.g. job position within a large corporation, is not the same as the sexual hierarchy, though there are certainly overlaps. Romantic leading Hollywood men are very high in both hierarchies.

    As used in the game world and the manosphere which talks about the current SMP, and as used on this blog by Susan, alphas (including lesser alphas, alphas, and greater or super alphas), are roughly the top 15% of men in sexually attracting women, and who hence have by far the most success in pulling cute and hot 6 and up for quick sex, and what often turns out to be one off or fling casual sex only. Susan says this is bad for girls. Most everyone on here agrees. Alpha like sluts but only for casual sex, not for purposes of falling in love with them, or marrying them.

    What tends to be wrong with alphas says Susan and I don’t disagree, is that it tends to be very hard to get them to commit in relationships, particularly if you’re a 6 or 7 swinging for the fences above your own SMP trying to get a solid alpha 9 to commit. If you’re an 8 or 9 yourself, you’ve got a better shot, at least with alphas in their mid thirties and older. Your solid alphas like FFY tend to not want to settle down in their 20’s, or not for long. Some do though.

    • Your solid alphas like FFY tend to not want to settle down in their 20’s, or not for long.

      That’s the problem with your definition of alpha right there. A guy goes from an LTR to “fearless cad” and you call that alpha. I call that something else.

      I believe Roissy defines alpha based entirely on how many women he gets for sex. It’s just that one metric.

      Yohami has an entirely different definition.

      Dalrock defines alphas as unsuitable for relationships, IIRC. He certainly advises women not to marry them.

      Researchers generally use the term to refer to men with high testosterone and a general set of personality traits, including strong leadership abilities and poor collaborative abilities. I’ve already linked to the Harvard Business School professors whose entire careers focus on remediating alpha behaviors in the workplace.

      Athol Kay describes alpha only in terms of traits, not individuals.

      I have no firm conviction about what an alpha male is – I’m with Jesus there. I tend to fall in with Dalrock, Athol and HBS though. A little alpha goes a long way, IMO.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Chris,

    Of course, you were there, not me. But that sounds highly unlikely to me. Either that, or extremely uncommon.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Doug,

    So in your view, FFY is a solid alpha?

  • jess

    Sassy:

    “Also, make sure you listen to how he talks about the women he has been involved with. If every single girl he mentions is described as crazy, evil, or bitchy, I would be suspicious. I could understand 1-2 evil bitchy exes, but all of them being described that way is circumspect.”

    Totally- which is why personally I would be more wary of multiple failed LTRs than a string of ONS’s.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Doug,

    Okay, so in your view, an alpha is someone who can get easy sex.

    • Okay, so in your view, an alpha is someone who can get easy sex.

      Yes, and you’re not allowed to mention it’s with easy, busted women.

  • VD…the paper linked at the Dark Lord post you cited is very interesting. In addition to the strong effect of psychosexuality, I was intrigued to see that “Vocal Attractiveness” (ie, the pleasantness of the person’s voice) ranked pretty high.

    I’m a very auditory person and can remember the voices of people I haven’t seen for years, and whose faces I can barely remember, but was surprised to find that the auditory factor ranks so high among people in general and especially in women’s responses to men.

  • Mike

    @Umslopogaas 129

    I do appreciate the comments. Really do.

    1. Although i don’t come looking for sympathy, it’s appreciated when i hear it. All the women here have been sympathetic to my plight and have said very nearly what you have. Even women i’ve had contentions with on this site have taken what i’ve said at face value and i appreciate that too. I’m trying to move away from that and get into pure healing mode and part of that is forgetting that past.

    2. I have given up on the dysfunctional system as it stands. Hence GMOW. As much as i support Susan’s educational goals, i am currently at odds with her mission statement as i am an ardent advocate of men avoiding marriage until such time when the law reaches a state of rationality and women discard the feminist entitled mentality of me me me and the disposeability of the male.

    3. I have already considered purchasing a ticket to Poland for next year, and begin searching for a compatible mate in her mid 20’s. I have lost time to make up for sexually and want to have a good 3-5 years of pre honeymoon bliss with a woman before i consider having a child. I reject any woman over 30 now, especially if i get the sense that her biological clock is starting to hammer and she’s only looking at me for my seed. Babymama’s gtfo. Survive 5 years with me without flaking and i’ll give you a chance. My best chance to keep my family name alive will be in Europe.

    4. I am soldiering on. I don’t make attaining sex my priority. I’ve been voluntarily celibate throughout my separation and will continue to my divorce. With the final shackles removed morally, ethically and legally i can then dip my foot in the water again, but i will never be ‘desperate’ for it. My incel time taught me how to live without pussy. A fact that no doubt helped me bag strippers in the past when their entitled ass’s just expected me to dish out cash because they looked hot and had vagina’s. They were easy to game at a time when i had no clue what game was or that it existed.

    5. Lastly, since i have no stake in this, and because i find myself out of ‘hookkup culture’ and have lost too many years to this, i simply act as the old codger on the street corner holding the sign ‘The End is Nigh’. I’m perfectly content to sit back and watch Rome burn. It’s not up to me to fix the system. I don’t have a vagina. I only have a tormented past and a brighter future with more disposable income and Modern Warfare 3.

    Cheers!

  • Doug1

    Chris in CA–

    Learn game and get a prenup before marrying and maybe before proposing. The later do work to make marriage less of a financial/bankruptcy type risk, though they can’t lower child support=also stealth alimony. If you want I can link you to a long comment of mine on another thread outlining in detail what sort of prenup I recommend, and how to argue it’s fairness with a potential fiancé.

    This is intended as relevant advice for one guy, not an effort to derail this thread around this subject.

    • @Munson

      Comment deleted. If you want to resubmit, take out the pejorative about Italians and Italian food.

  • Charm

    @Chris_in_CA

    I’m new here, but I have been around for quite some time now. Ive read all of Badger, some Dalrock, Obsidean, Roosh, Roissy, etc etc. Dozen of blogs, so Im pretty well informed though some of the acronyms still get me some times. I know MGTOW though. Lol.

    Quite honestly I just find this whole niche in the blogsphere really interesting. Its like I was living in the bubble that has been burst. I like reading all of your stories and comments about your life experiences. I feel like Im staving off a whole lot of heartache by reading it.

    About what you wrote:

    I can’t believe women are like that. Maybe Im so shocked because I don’t hang out with women at all in my age range. Why? Im not like them. Can’t say I saw anything wrong with what you did. I can’t believe you were penalized for it. Being too beta? Women actually judge men for being kind and considerate and not treating them like shit? Thats really hard for me to take.

    Ive read about how the female red pill is women realizing what men really want from them, however, Ive found that swallowing the red pill has actually forced me to see women differently. When I first started reading these game and dating blogs I wanted so badly to exclaim that NAWALT. Then I started noticing that they really really are like that. I find that the more I read the more I side with men like you. Its not right.

    Not really looking for a response, just wanted to hit you back.

    I’ll stop derailing the thread now. Sorry Susan.

  • Doc

    It’s interesting – long ago I used to think that having a large number of sexual partners would count against me (as a man) when it came to women. Actually, if anything its increased my market-value. The various times the topic’s come up, the woman said something like, “I wanted to know why so many women went to bed with you.” I first experienced that effect back in college with sororities – nail one of the hottest girls in a sorority, and the others seemed to line up for a turn.

    Never try to understand the mind of a woman when it comes to her “reasons” – just know how to make it work to your advantage.

    Now, if I were looking for something long-term with a woman the number of her past sexual partners would matter. But as long as it’s all for fun, why would I care as long as she can keep me happy? My rule of thumb for a woman is 2 partners per year on average assuming sexual activity started at 15. (Of course, I also triple whatever number she would actually admit to, in order to get a more accurate number.)

    Is it a double standard? Heck, yes. As a friend of mine once said when one of his ex’s had a one night stand because he was seeing other women when he kicked her to the curb. “I can always wash it off, but you can’t wash it out.” I lost it, I laughed so hard it hurt… (She wasn’t amused – which made it all the funnier from my perspective.) That is the simple difference when it comes to men and women and sexual partners. And it is a fundamental difference.

  • Doug1

    Mike–

    To the effect of : It’s not a woman’s place to teach a man how to be dominant / alpha / whatever.

    He’s quite right.. so im wondering who is responsible. Nature vs. Nurture?

    Both. Feminist messages in the lighter form found in school teachers, the mass entertainment media, and many parents, have done a lot to feminize boys especially middle class on up white boys who wre their principal target, to make them easier for women to deal with in day to day life, and for women to compete against in schools and workplaces, but have also made them less sexually appealing, less alphaish. So guys with lots of testosterone and dominant personalities who are natural leaders and/or rebels are biologically more apt to resist this in significant part than others.

    Just unlearning a lot of feminist messages will help a lot.

    I’d recommend reading Heartiste/Roissy’s archives from the beginning through 2009. Start by going to his site, and doing a google site search on “Dave from Hawaii Relationship Game Week”. Read that and the preceding “Agree and Amplify posts first. Just those two posts will teach you a good bit of game, some things not to do, and an easy to remember and pull off way to handle “shit tests”.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    So, Doug’s view of Alpha is that it describes the guy who gets the most sexual validation from women. And yet, I would argue that many people here, when they use the word Alpha, mean a man that is the source of his own value, and not someone who allows his self-worth to be defined by female attention.

  • Doug1

    Charm—

    I can’t believe women are like that. Maybe Im so shocked because I don’t hang out with women at all in my age range. Why? Im not like them. Can’t say I saw anything wrong with what you did. I can’t believe you were penalized for it. Being too beta? Women actually judge men for being kind and considerate and not treating them like shit? Thats really hard for me to take.

    Most of it is not conscious with most women. They just know when they FEEL sexually attracted and when they don’t. Women are most sexually attracted to men with psychosocialsexual dominance over women to a good degree. There are different styles of exuding that, some nicer than others. Depends on the guy’s strengths, as well as what he can learn.

  • MNL

    Susan, I enjoy your blog and insights immensely, but I have to point out something that is at the least sloppy thinking, and at most an outright contradiction:

    I’m not concerned with moral questions around casual sex. I do not believe that casual sex is immoral. My opposition to casual sex is rooted in the belief that it is a risky strategy for women who wish to ultimately settle with a life partner. …promiscuity limits one’s options by dramatically shrinking the pool of potentially interested partners.

    The contradiction above is longhand for the idea that, “casual sex isn’t wrong; it’s just not strategically effective.” It reflects of the common and mistaken belief that what is morally wrong is automatically unrelated to what is also socially unworkable or ineffective. The slopping thinking is in ignoring the origins of moral emotions in the first place. It occurs in the attempt to divorce what is morally wrong vs. merely practically or instrumentally wrong. I appreciate your interest in not wanting to sound too Victorian or parochial and in maintaining a soft stance, But this soft stance is built on quicksand.

    Early in the post you reference David Buss and The Evolution of Desire. What one learns inside this and his other books (I’m thinking here of Evolutionary Psychology – The New Science of Mind) is that what a society considers morally wrong is quite often an evolved response to what is in fact, less socially efficacious behavior. Moral emotions selectively emerged in society as a tool to regulate behavior which would otherwise undermine that society’s successful reproduction and growth. One can see this clearly in our moral emotions in regards to casual sex. As you said yourself, in the long term, casual sex limits a woman’s pool of interested partners; it likewise makes the manwhore find his partners less attractive. (Your studies cited are just the tip of an iceberg in this field, of which I know you’re well aware). In other words, casual sex tends to work against the human ability to successfully seek out and maintain pair bonds that endure long enough for the effective raising of offspring. That this fact also happens to be encoded into a moral emotion or sanction is a byproduct. It makes no sense to reject the moral encoding of the truth without rejecting the practical truth as well.

    Perhaps by saying, “I don’t believe that casual sex is immoral”, one simply means that those who engage aren’t going to endure seven layers of hell, fire, brimstone, and the pointed jabs from a man with a pitchfork in the Christian afterlife. But that’s a metaphysical argument and an entirely different topic.

    Let’s simply not hold the mistaken belief that what a society often considers “moral” or “immoral” is unrelated to what has proved strategic to that society’s development. Moral emotions such as sanctions against casual sex, like other “kin selection” strategies, likely emerged through rigorous evolutionary pressure. They are strategically optimal as far as we can tell. Therefore, one can’t say that casual sex limits one’s strategic reproductive options yet isn’t morally wrong–and escape not only a contradiction but also a proper understanding of the role and purpose of moral emotion.

    • @MNL

      Thank you for your thoughtful comment.

      what a society considers morally wrong is quite often an evolved response to what is in fact, less socially efficacious behavior. Moral emotions selectively emerged in society as a tool to regulate behavior which would otherwise undermine that society’s successful reproduction and growth.

      True. I would point out, though, that the sexual double standard arose in order to protect men from cuckoldry. A woman’s sexual past was considered a good indicator of her likelihood to remain sexually faithful and loyal (Buss cites this as the most important of 67 different traits to American men). Today, with the Pill, abortion, and DNA testing for paternity, the risk for cuckoldry still exists but is much diminished. Promiscuity is still a good predictor of sexual loyalty, at least according to one study. Still, perhaps our justification for considering casual sex as immoral has weakened.

      It’s also true that many societies have traditionally arranged for young men to lose their virginity with a prostitute or other non-relationship partner. Clearly, societies must feel that this is a necessary rite of passage for males. We should also consider what happens among men when involuntary celibacy is imposed on the majority.

      In other words, casual sex tends to work against the human ability to successfully seek out and maintain pair bonds that endure long enough for the effective raising of offspring.

      Well, I am on record many times as saying that promiscuity is responsible for many societal ills, and I believe that. I’m not saying that casual sex is not damaging to society. But to play devil’s advocate for a moment, we have a situation where 80% of guys are not having (much) casual sex, which lands them in a Catch 22. As virgins they can’t attract a female (who evolved to appreciate preselection by other females), but neither can they make any headway unless they can lose their virginity and learn how to interact with women. If those men were able to attract mates earlier and marry, the birthrate would climb.

      IOW, my view is a pragmatic one. Clamping down on premarital sex isn’t going to work. Dalrock may define female promiscuity as N > 1, but that’s just academic. That simply enables us to declare that most women are promiscuous.

      My motivation is in getting people together. And if that means congratulating a male on having a sexual experience, I’m willing to do that in the service of a greater goal. Researcher Kathleen Bogle has said that although hookups turn into relationships only 12% of the time, they are the only pathway to relationships in college. (Hooking up is defined as anything from kissing to intercourse – before emotional intimacy.) I’ve read that the only college that has minimal hooking up is BYU. If we admonish young people never to hook up, they’re not going to form relationships. Ultimately, that is what we’re trying to avoid.

  • @Susan Walsh:

    We love Mike, but in all honesty, we have heard Mike’s story many times. Most, if not all, have offered words of support many times. Charm is new. Please don’t extrapolate from this, you’re barking up the wrong tree here.”

    Well I certainly haven’t heard his story before. And his most recent post (the one I responded to) referred to him having to divorce his wife (in 2 weeks) because she seems to be unhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapy.

    Have you heard this story many times before already as well?

    I’ve deleted your comment, as I routinely delete all comments of the “America is a dunghole” variety“.

    LoL. Aight, your blog your call, “fair” enough.

    I’ll just have to voice my opinions in the proper ‘Sprech’, zhen:

    Mike,
    it’s all in your head. American women are *wunderbaaaar, jawohl*. Rainbows eternally shine out of their ar*es and unicorns become misty eyed, fall in love at first sight and write shmaltzy poems when these robust, empowered and superbly outstandingly megamassive super-duper wimminz waltz by.

    There are no sluts. There are no princesses. There are no gouty, dumpy hausfraus. There are no flabby landwhales floundering around. There are no shrill and screwy shrews. There are no nagging, saggy hags. It’s all just an ilusion, made up by the Devil and MTV.

    What happened to you did not really happen. Because it could not happen in the US. Because, you know, NAWALT. Actually, NASAWILT (N.ot A. S.ingle A.merican W.oman I.s L.ike T.hat). They could not do these terrible, terrible things because they are made of sugar and spice and all things nice.

    And looking for a woman outside of the US is a crime! How could you do that? Why would you want to walk away from such wonderful, emphatic, beautiful, flagrant, radiant, perfectly perfect, not ever too fat nor too thin just optimal wimminz?

    You better start loving these wimminz or else…or else you’re a misogynist! So there! You so *aaare*! If you don’t man up and marry and fork over your spandooly and get divorce-raped and man up and marry and give them your wonga and get cuckold-divorce-raped and man up yet again and marry another wonder woman etc…you obviously do not want to commit, you man child.

    We from the ‘Department of Equality’ need to change that. We’ll just just have to put you in a Liberation Camp with ‘Hildegard’ for a few sessions of “empowerment”.

    Love is hate.
    War is peace.
    Freedom is slavery.

    & all power to the hamsters.

    • @Umslo

      I don’t know what happened. When you first came here you seemed quite reasonable and serious.

      I’m not sure why MRAs think HUS is a good place to rag on American women. I mean, seriously. You’re talking to American women here. Your advice to expatriate would be more relevant on an MRA blog, no? You’re going to find very few potential expats here.

  • Charm

    @ Jesus Mahoney #182

    ” And yet, I would argue that many people here, when they use the word Alpha, mean a man that is the source of his own value, and not someone who allows his self-worth to be defined by female attention.”

    I could not agree more. Nothing is more Alpha than a man who knows who he is regardless of what other people think of him. I read on another blog (cant remember where) about Alphas among women and Alphas among men. The former is the one who gets validation from women the latter from being respected by men. Though, I think the Alpha among men has a strong sense of self which is why he is respected among men. That is the type of man that I like, not the one who beds a bunch of women.

  • @david foster, I can’t speak for other people, but a good voice is incredibly attractive to me. I think it is THE thing that first attracted me to my husband. I didn’t know what he looked like; he just had a “sexy” voice. It wasn’t particularly deep. It was just mesmerizing to me.

    I think it might be that a person’s voice conveys a lot about personality and demeanor. My husband was also attracted to my voice right away, and he said I sounded cute, sweet, shy and nice. Although, I very much dislike my own voice.

    If you’ve ever read Dune, the Bene Gesserit have a concept called “the Voice,” using their vocal talents to persuade and compel others to follow commands. It’s quite interesting. I feel there is definitely something energetically deeper going on about voices and tones.

  • Doug1

    Jesus—

    So, Doug’s view of Alpha is that it describes the guy who gets the most sexual validation from women. And yet, I would argue that many people here, when they use the word Alpha, mean a man that is the source of his own value, and not someone who allows his self-worth to be defined by female attention.

    There’s certainly more to being a high value man than being very sexually attractive to women, and certainly more to my and most other men’s sense of self worth than that. From women’s points of view there’s more to attractive mate selection than the degree of alphaness of the guy as well, esp. when choosing a LTR or marriage partner. There’s his loyalty, his desire to have a long term relationship with her, his ability to fall in love with her, their compatibility and life goals, and his achievements.

    There’s also more to selecting an excellent LTR or marriage female mate than choosing the prettiest or even prettiest and most oozing of sexuality a youngish girl one can attract. See the above factors for women beyond degree of alphaness.

  • tvmunson

    at #178

    mant to say when a guy gets “bingal”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Doug,

    That’s cool. I understand now what you mean when you say alpha. I think your views are silly, but at least now I understand them.

  • Doug1

    Jesus–

    Okay, so in your view, an alpha is someone who can get easy sex.

    From cute and hot girls, yes. Not from chubby 3’s. Some greater betas can get it from some 6’s, so Roissy and others in the Roissysphere + Roosh often expanded the percentage to 20% which includes some of them, from the 15% who are said to be some sort of alpha, mostly lesser alphas.

    Note can is not the same thing as saying only guys who are obsessed with ranking up large numbers of partners (usually among the 6’s and 7’s) are alphas.

    Another way of gauging alpha and greater beta sex ranks is by asking or observing what’s the SMV rank of the three hottest girls he’s ever managed to bang or keep in a relationship? Limiting it to just one will let in too many flukes I think. So if the hottest three average 8, he’s probably a lesser alpha rather than a solid alpha.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Doug,

    That all sounds absurd to me.

  • Charm

    @Doug1 #185

    Thats probably what it is. Most women are feeling oriented and Im thinking oriented. I scored ENTJ on MBTI. From my perspective the problems seems to be the way most women fall in love:

    Body-they are sexually aroused by a man’s dominance so they want to sleep with them.
    Heart-Since most women bond through sex, they start to develop feeling for the man.
    Head-This where they start to evaluate his fitness as a long-term mate. (character/personality/job/stability etc).

    I think that when it finally gets to most womens head’s and they start to think about the man they have already had sex with, and developed feelings for, they have to rationalize (isnt this where the hamster comes in?) why they should be with him even though he isn’t worth a damn. Probably why bad boys get so much play. Women aren’t actively using their damn heads, though you’ve all already figured that much out.

    I on the other hand fall in love I guess backwards compared to most women. People automatically get friend zoned with me until I can assess them.
    Head-whether or not I can have an intellectual conversation with you, if you have a strong character or not, do our personalities click.
    Heart-only after you’ve passed the first step will feelings start to develop and Ill start to consider you for mating
    Body-After my head and heart are in is when my body will follow and Ill become sexually attracted to you.

    This is probably I don’t get this whole alpha this, beta that and why I don’t find the Alpha men discussed in blogs like this attractive. Crap, now that I think about it im gonna be single forever.

  • lovelost

    @Susan #194
    I’ve already linked to the Harvard Business School professors whose entire careers focus on remediating alpha behaviors in the workplace.

    Could you please provide the link one more time? Thanks.

  • @Mike:

    Seeing as my indepth response to your comments was carpetbombed out of existance by the supreme overlordess of HUS might I just use your owncomments and cite and integrate them into an article on my blog?

    Cause I’ve been pondering this very subject and have strong feelings about it.

    • Seeing as my indepth response to your comments was carpetbombed out of existance by the supreme overlordess of HUS might I just use your owncomments and cite and integrate them into an article on my blog?

      Hey, that’s a great idea! If Mike agrees, perhaps you two could take the convo over there. It’s totally off topic for this post.

  • jess

    Ted re numbers,

    Hi, yes a lot of guys here have said the same thing in that ‘numbers’ are high up the ‘list’ and that hypocrisy is rife on the issue ( as depicted in the cartoon).

    The bottom line is, if thats what all the guys you know say, then a women in your ‘circle’ has to deal with that reality- however ‘unethical’ or ‘irrational’ it may be.

    Her choices are to find a different circle, keep her numbers low or simply take a reduced partner pool if she allows he numbers to creep up.

    I have often reported on contrasting male attitudes (and got a pile of abuse here for doing so). But the fact remains that my experience is very different to yours. Im not talking about telly or SATC or the very sex positive media that is prevalent today (actually I think the media is far too sexualised) and I accept that in the UK and Ireland there are some guys who have ‘number’ at the forefront of their thinking towards women.

    But I have experienced 3 countries in a fair bit of depth in in particular their SMPs (not a term I like!)- and I have generally felt many (most) guys just aren’t that hung up on numbers.

    When I explicitly asked my work colleague and some other friends /acquaintances last year they mostly confirmed my impressions.

    I met several guys who had married girls that had more experience than them and seemed very happy- they just didn’t see the problems that some others do.

    As to shifting ‘scenes’ I read an article recently about Ireland and the (remote) possibility of Martin McGuiness getting elected and the history of religion and politics there in the last 30 years and how there has been a PROFOUND change in attitudes. I was quite shocked actually as I realised some of my own memories and impressions are now perhaps out of date. And its not just Dublin that has these modern attitudes and non religious mores- its a general mind set of people below the age of 30.

    The pill and the media have fundamentally changed society. There have been positives and negatives to this but I cannot imagine the pendulum going too far the other way. I do like the wave of good youth orientated information shows like ‘SEx Experience’ on channel4 which are explicit, but well presented and DO hammer home the realties of STDs and the acceptability of virginity and gay/lesbian/bisesual/trangender people. Its progressive, educational and very responsible and more and more shows are coming out like that.

    In time I hope this proves an antidote to excessive sexual titillation and pornography. But the ‘change’ in attitude is there for any nation that allows TV sets or internet cables.

    • Jess has arrived to defend promiscuity. Can Tom be far behind? Someone has offered a bet: 30 comments combined between those two over the next three days. Any takers?

  • Doug1

    Jesus—

    That’s cool. I understand now what you mean when you say alpha. I think your views are silly, but at least now I understand them.

    Fair enough. As for being silly, it’s how just about everyone in the game world and most of the manosphere uses alpha and beta. It’s mostly how Susan uses it too, though she likes to emphasize the typical good beta qualities, which is fair enough.

    A complicating factor is that there are many so called beta qualities which are attractive to women, esp. for LTR’s, when present with some mix of alpha qualities (great betas have some alpha qualities). Athol Kay talks about this a lot, and so does Susan.

    I tried to float having two parallel scales, on 1-10 on the gina tingles, raw male sexual attractiveness alpha/cad scale. The other 1-10 on the mate/dad scale. Many of the good “beta” qualities would be on this scale. For example, loyalty, fidelity, comfort providing, reliability, responsibility, and so on. Never caught on. Think it’s a more helpful way of thinking about it. Yeah alphas tend to be cads, because they can, but they don’t have to be. Not all betas on the gina scale are actually so good at providing warm comfort, being reliable and responsible, etc. – though they more tend to be, because those can be beta selling points.

  • tvmunson

    Amendatory to previous re ; anus/bingus/”asshole”:

    Another reason we need an intermediate term for anal sex, not just penetration but all forms, is that when gals discuss it they should not adopt the vituperative form in explication. If you say ” he played with my ass”, it isn’t clear if he crossed the 50 yard line or actually got into the “red zone” (no no-that’s close enough). We need a word and words that are not clinical, but not vulgar, without losing clarity..

    EXAMPLE: Girl (to her friend): “So what did you, uhm, Do? Did you ..”
    Friend: “No, we fooled around; he played with my asshole.”

    Now, what do girls call men they’re mad at? “Asshole”. Using that same term as in my example conflates anger with romance in a way that is not healthy for a woman. “He played with my bingus” achieves the proper balance, somewhere between crudity and arid clinical detachment.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Doug,

    I’m pretty sure that’s not how Sue defines Alpha. If it is, then I think she’s being silly.

  • Doug1

    Jess—

    and that hypocrisy is rife on the issue ( as depicted in the cartoon).

    Having a double standard on the slut versus stud issue is not necessarily hypocritical. The cartoon did not depict hypocrisy. It depicted lack of sameness between men and women on this issue, or many feminists would say lack of equality, freely admitted by the dad, which was what was funny. It would only be hypocrisy if he pretended to have the same standard for his son, but didn’t in practice.

  • tvmunson

    #199 I was kidding but get it. It will take a while to re-type.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I once hopped on a subway car on a Saturday night. It was a relatively empty car, which is why I went for that one. There was a homeless man fiddling himself in full view of the few remaining passengers. Munson’s posts remind me a lot of him.

  • Doug1

    Jesus–

    I’m pretty sure that’s not how Sue defines Alpha. If it is, then I think she’s being silly.

    I think it is how she uses it, although she likes to strongly associate alphas with usually being players. Some are some aren’t. Just about all players are some kind of alpha though because they have to be to be able to pull it off with cute and hot girls, or occasionally a few greater betas mostly with 6’s.

  • jess

    munson,

    i assume by knuckle you mean a gentlemen’s undercarriage or portal for veinous choad (TM)

    I actually used to think girls (and certainly not myself) did not do that. But I have since seen research and a hilarious TV documentary that confirms exactly that. I dont know if we find it ‘hot’ like guys do with the camel toe but it would appear we have a good old look all the same.

    This doesnt particularly suprise me- the more I read up on anthropological work, the more I’m struck by gender similarities. However there are comfort reasons I would have thought that allow women to wear tighter trousers than gentlemen so there may well be a factor there as well of course.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Charm

    Thats probably what it is. Most women are feeling oriented and Im thinking oriented. I scored ENTJ on MBTI.

    I think that’s a valid point. I am an ENTP, so you and I are fairly similar. I tend to make my decisions based on thoughts rather than emotion, so I fall in love similarly to the way you described it. I think I’m too rational for my own good sometimes. I approach many situations the way a man would. I think it will serve me well in relationships, in the long run.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hm. If you call players and PUAs alpha, then I’m cool with it. It just sounds like a bunch of silly, self-congratulatory bullshit though.

    • It just sounds like a bunch of silly, self-congratulatory bullshit though.

      Notice how all the positive alpha descriptions are from men who offer themselves up as Exhibit A, lol.

  • jess

    doug at 203,

    well ok, granted- i guess then if the brother maintained the distinction between himself and a future girlfriend THAT would be him being hypocritical.

  • @Charm, INFJ here. I fall in love like you do: mind first, then heart, and finally body. I never made out with a guy without him loving me for my mind and heart first. I’ve also only been with nerdy guys who are smart and impress me in the intellectual realm.

    @Sassy, I don’t think the common thread is the T. I think it’s the N. We N’s are about 25% of the population, but we talk a lot more online. Sensing people make up the majority, and they operate differently.

  • Wudang

    One part of the voice attraction is that deeper voices reveal high testosterone which imply alpha + other beneficial good genes. But I think it also reveals the personality in all sorts of ways in the same way bodylanguage does. Insecurities are heard, being a loving person is heard. We don`t necessarily understand what it is we are hearing at all it is just that the sounds make us attracted because the sounds reflect something. Some people are much better than others at reading what it is exactly that a voice reveals just like with bodylanguage.

    Sometimes when I am feeling especially comfortable and confident and am being more charming than normal I tend to get more in contact with my voice and find I can control it quite a lot and make it more appealing. When I do I can se instant positive changes in how women respond.

  • Charm

    @Sassy

    ” I think I’m too rational for my own good sometimes.”

    I’d say no, but if you think about it, its really true. Men lament about dating women who are feeling oriented and emotional, social gossips, irrational and horrible decision makers, but they naturally associate all of these things with being female and often feminine. NT girls really do think like men and in the long run of a relationship it probably is more beneficial but how many times have you been passed over for a cute little SFP or SFJ? Hell, NFs probably have it easier than rational girls because at least they are emotional.

    I think Im low maintenance but often men just call me unfeminine. Oh the pain of the double edged sword.

  • Doug1

    Jess—

    But I have experienced 3 countries in a fair bit of depth in in particular their SMPs (not a term I like!)- and I have generally felt many (most) guys just aren’t that hung up on numbers.

    Alpha’s tend to care less about numbers than betas do. Alphas definitely don’t go around slut shaming out in the real dating world. It’s bad for business to do that. Also sends the wrong vibe even aside from getting sluts to put out. It sends the wrong vibe even to good girls most of the time.

    However very few men would want to marry a Samantha, particularly if they’ve taken the red pill about American or British levels of divorce and the usual outcomes for men who earn a lot more than their wives. Carrie Bradshaw levels wouldn’t bother some thirty something alphas, though her age would.

    Most still do care though when considering marriage. More leftist guys more immersed in feminism tend to care less (I think by usually kidding themselves) than most more conservative guys, who reject anti slut shaming sex positive feminist messages.

  • Chris_in_CA

    No bet, Susan. Not unless you up the number to 45.

    @Doug – I appreciate it, but no worries. My name will never appear on a marriage certificate. Or a birth certificate other than my own.

    @Charm – I respect a woman who wants to use her brain. But auto-friendzoning guys will turn off physical cues you give a man. Wanting him to approach, indicate he should keep talking, touching him, etc. Without those, even a lot of betas will assume you’re not interested and walk away. If you WANT to end up single all your life…well.

  • Charm

    @Hope

    Yes, NFs and NT have a lot in common. Ns do make up about 25 percent of the population. Where I get screwed is that most men are T while most women are F, so thinking women make up 25% of the female population while I believe intuitive thinking women make up about 5%? I know ENTJ women are about 1.3% of the over all population of the US.

  • Doug1

    Roissy–

    I believe Roissy defines alpha based entirely on how many women he gets for sex. It’s just that one metric.

    He created that impression on the first post where he defined alpha males and the SMV scale in general (he also used length of dry spells between relationships versus being able to have soft harems), but then in other posts amended that to “could get if he wanted to”. He’s also added my second way of determining — by the hottest three women a guy has ever pulled for casual or relationship sex.

  • JQ

    @Susan

    I shall come out of the land of the lurk to make a few comments in re one of the studies cited in your post via the links [1, pay-walled] (I don’t have institutional access to the other one), I would like to make two notes. (References are numbered and at the bottom.)

    1) There is no baseline risk over time curve reported so it is impossible to make a judgment about whether or not premarital sex with someone other than a woman’s first husband makes a “meaningful difference”. If the baseline risk is small enough, for some demographics even a doubling of the risk is still less than the overall average or an average which has been re-sampled to more accurately reflect overall demographics based on national average Census data. What is considered “normal” or “baseline” matters.

    2) Also, it was reported that there is a 8% reduction in the risk of divorce for each year a woman delays age of first sex. Doing a little, this implies a woman who waits until her early twenties has just about canceled out her additional divorce risk [0.5 from waiting (x) 2 from having premarital sex] due to having multiple sex partners and this adjustment is reported as statistically significant [1, Table 2]. I’m sure people will comment at length about “maturity effects”, which I agree are certainly present and a priori meaningful. However in regards to partner count . . .

    (2a) Before people jump up and down about how women who wait have fewer lifetime partners, yes, it’s supported by the data presented in [1] and elsewhere (HUS, for instance). However, the study doesn’t break out the number of sex partners and, as [2] notes, it stands to reason that there is a diminishing effect of additional partners, namely that the first does most of the damage and beyond a certain point more are statistically irrelevant. On the other hand, it does appear from this study that the only premarital sex that doesn’t matter statistically is sex with the future ex-husband [1, Table 4].

    [1] Teachman, J. “Premarital Sex, Premarital Cohabitation, and the Risk of Subsequent Marital Dissolution Among Women”, Journal of Marriage and Family 65 (May 2003): 444–455

    [2] http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2010/09/sexual-partner-divorce-risk.html?showComment=1284787761300#c3150757481704552417

    • @JQ

      All fair and relevant points. I’m a little wary of the Teachman study for two reasons. One, IIRC Teachman has an ideology, so I’m not 100% confident re bias. Two, it’s the only study of its kind and has never been replicated anywhere else. I spent an entire afternoon once scouring the web for anything even remotely similar. This may reflect a deliberate suppression of information, I don’t know. Or it may be that it’s a true outlier.

      These studies usually have some value, but it’s limited. I acknowledge that.

  • Mike

    Umslopogaas January 6, 2012 at 5:05 pm 197

    You have my permission to use anything i write in the public square.

  • Sassy6519

    I’d say no, but if you think about it, its really true. Men lament about dating women who are feeling oriented and emotional, social gossips, irrational and horrible decision makers, but they naturally associate all of these things with being female and often feminine. NT girls really do think like men and in the long run of a relationship it probably is more beneficial but how many times have you been passed over for a cute little SFP or SFJ? Hell, NFs probably have it easier than rational girls because at least they are emotional.

    I don’t think I’ve ever really been passed over by a guy. If I did, it was probably during the age of 16 and under. Guys think I’m very feminine when they first meet me. I dress and conduct myself like a lady. When I open my mouth and start talking about video games or philosophy, they have often reacted in an extremely positive way. They like the fact that I look good on their arm, but that I can also shoot the shit about random things.

    For example, I was talking to this guy at work this past week about Skyrim (a video game for those not in the know). I looked at him and shouted at one point “Fus Ro Dah!!”. He burst out laughing and said, “Please marry me” in a half-joking tone.

    It’s all about striking a balance. Be pretty and feminine, but relate to guys on their level. If you can successfully do both, you’re pretty much golden.

  • Here’s an excerpt from a post I wrot