The Sexual Double Standard Cuts Both Ways

January 6, 2012

One of my core beliefs about mating is that the sexual double standard reflects the biological differences between the sexes. Generally speaking, men prefer women with less sexual experience than they have and women prefer men with more sexual experience than they have (Buss, The Evolution of Desire). While it’s true that many women today seek to shed the encumbrance of their virginity, we all know that the aging male virgin is an object of cultural ridicule. In today’s sexual marketplace, many women will ruthlessly disqualify a man for a perceived lack of sexual experience or finesse. (Cads will do the same to female virgins, but that reflects their short-term mating priorities rather than long-term preference.) Today we’ve reached a point where there are more male virgins than female virgins in college (43% vs. 37%), reflecting the increasing divide between the minority of men who have sexual options and the rest.

I’ve stated before that my interest in sex (and who’s having it) is a strategic one. I’m not concerned with moral questions around casual sex. Indeed, I do not believe that casual sex is immoral. My opposition to casual sex is rooted in the belief that it is a risky strategy for women who wish to ultimately settle with a life partner. This is not to say that promiscuous women will be unable to marry, just that promiscuity limits one’s options by dramatically shrinking the pool of potentially interested partners. There is also some evidence that the prior number of sexual partners, as well as the age at which women lose their virginity, are risk factors for divorce. (More about male promiscuity in a bit.) 

Ultimately, my position re casual sex means that there will be times when I will applaud a male for having gotten laid, while withholding approval from a female for the same behavior. This is simply a reflection of my position that men and women experience sex differently, and judge one another accordingly. It is a double standard, one that’s built in, and 40+ years of feminism’s trying to “reeducate” men and women has been an unmitigated failure. I believe that it’s possible, though by no means guaranteed, that a man may profit from a casual sexual encounter. I believe it’s also possible, though much less likely, that a woman may benefit from a casual sexual encounter.

At the same time, I believe that people should be held accountable for their own choices. Basically, “you break it, you own it.” Both sexes have full sexual agency today, and we are seeing that play out in an increasingly dysfunctional sexual marketplace. We should not be in the business of trying to protect either sex from themselves. I do not hold men responsible for the emotional toll on a woman who readily engages in casual sex with them (provided they have not engaged in deceit.) Nor do I hold women responsible for the emotional toll on a man who falls for a woman who is clearly averse to commitment. Again, it is a strategic matter – we should avoid those people who we can reasonably judge as being unwilling to give us what we want.

Eric Barker at Barking Up the Wrong Tree recently shared a study that looks at how men and women respond after having sex with a person for the first time:

This article develops the Affective Ship Hypothesis, which suggests that women experience positive affective shifts following first-time intercourse as a means to facilitate a longer-term, more committed relationship. The hypothesis predicts a negative affective shift in men who pursue a short-term mating strategy; this shift is hypothesized to function to curtail commitment by motivating the man to terminate the relationship.

In two separate studies, researchers found that “men with high numbers of sex partners, but not men with low numbers of partners, experienced a decrease in their partner’s physical and sexual attractiveness following first-time sexual intercourse. In contrast, women, more than men, experienced increases in feelings of love and commitment following first-time sex.”

In other words, a manwhore will like you less after having sex with you, while a less sexually experienced man will like you more.

This has clear implications for women: there is indeed a boomerang effect in male  promiscuity. Preselection is not endlessly beneficial as an indicator of mating fitness. We know that male promiscuity is a risk factor for divorce, but it also means that a man with a high number of past sexual partners begins to tire of you immediately after having sex with you.

While women often prefer men who have sexual options, and consequently some sexual experience, they would do well do avoid promiscuous men. 

7 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • Helen

    What are some strategies for women to weed out men who have had many partners? How can you tell?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Helen,

      Here’s an excerpt from a post I wrote on the topic:

      4. Observe how he carries himself. Red flags include:

      Swagger
      Smirk
      Touches women carelessly – lots of hand on the lower back behavior
      Grinds on the dance floor with anyone
      Extroverted, enjoys being the center of attention
      Eye f*cking, or excessive direct eye contact
      Moves into your personal space boldly
      These are all signs that you are not likely to be someone special over a period of time. Men like this go from hot to cold with the flip of a switch. If you observe this behavior when you meet a guy, don’t even give him a shot, he is bad news.

      5. Understand his relationships.

      How does he interact with his family? Is he protective of his sister? Does he love his mama? Does he respect his father? Anything off in the family sphere is a major red flag.

      What are his male friends like? What is the friendship based on? What do they do together? Is he close enough to any guy to confide in him?

      Do his friends seem eager to reassure you that he is a really good guy? This is usually a bad sign. In fact, in my experience it means he is a total douchebag. Guys don’t get their friends to wing for them in this way if they have no need of providing extra reassurance.

      Are most of his friends women? This is a bad sign. There are some very good guys who don’t have a lot of female friends, but there are very few good guys who have no male friends.

      Is he still connected to his ex? Being cordial is fine, but making plans, talking, texting, etc. are not. If a guy is in regular touch with his ex for any reason, he is unavailable emotionally. That means he isn’t capable of wanting more than sex from you.

      How do women in his circle regard him? If you see women pulling him aside at parties and in hallways to “talk,” you can be sure he has unfinished business, at least in the eyes of those women. If women are inexplicably hostile to you, it often means that he treated them poorly, and they resent your coming on the scene as the new favorite. Anytime a guy says, “She’s a psycho” or “I don’t know what her problem is,” be careful. Usually, this is projection, and the woman has a very good reason indeed for being pissed off.

      Is it important to him that you meet and like his friends? He should be more than just willing, he should be invested in making this connection if he has any interest in something lasting.

      Is he eager to meet your friends? Does he go out of his way to be attentive and interested, determined to make a good impression? If he is all about his own circle, expecting you to come to him all the time, he is not relationship material.

      6. Watch how he displays physical affection.

      Hand holding is a must, but lots of players know this, and use it to pretend to be caring. Ditto for the nose kiss and the forehead kiss. Hugs are completely meaningless. This is all known as intimacy lite.

      He should be at least a little nervous about the first kiss. If he has his tongue down your throat an hour after hello, move on.

      When you’re out together at a party or gathering, does he stick close by, making it clear you are together? You should have a sense that he is attentive and a little protective. He should also be anxious to show you off if he is invested.

      If he “invites” you to suck his d*ck, move on. I can never get over guys who say, “You can go down on me if you want.” If he thinks his penis is a rare and precious sword he’s a player.

      If he’s smug about the size of his penis, move on. Lousy at sex, guaranteed. Funny, it’s always the guys with big ones who don’t like going down on women.

      Cads are generally bad in bed. In the one published report from a woman who had sex with Tucker Max, she said he was terrible. Jackhammer all the way. What did he care? He was just taking the shortest route from Point A to Point B. If you get to the point of sex with a guy, and he makes zero effort, he’s a player.

      There is one exception. Players will work hard to please you during sex if they have reason to believe you’ll report on their skills. So if he wants to do all your friends next, he’ll probably make an effort. This shouldn’t ever happen if you’ve paid attention to all the other signs.

      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/04/30/hookinguprealities/how-to-make-sure-you-dont-fall-for-a-player/

  • GudEnuf

    “Ultimately, my position re casual sex means that there will be times when I will applaud a male for having gotten laid, while withholding approval from a female for the same behavior. This is simply a reflection of my position that men and women experience sex differently, and judge one another accordingly. It is a double standard, one that’s built in, and 40+ years of feminism’s trying to “reeducate” men and women has been an unmitigated failure.”

    That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.

  • Jim

    Problem is women are not hard wired but chemically altered via birth control to stave off becoming pregnant. And the end result, fertility drugs to try and get pregnant and a whole lotta kids with birth defects.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jim

      Problem is women are not hard wired but chemically altered via birth control to stave off becoming pregnant.

      Actually, women on the Pill prefer lower testosterone men, less dominant and aggressive men, and men with less masculine facial features. That’s because they don’t get a monthly surge of testosterone without ovulation, which is the only time per month women prefer the most dominant men. Of course, that too cuts both ways. Women are more likely to cheat when they ovulate.

  • Ted D

    GudEnuf – you said: “That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.”

    Please explain. I don’t see this, but it is probably my age.

    Susan – Although the comic is a little funny, I’ve always found that particular angle of the “double standard” to be repugnant. I have a daughter and a son, and I have never treated how I discuss sexuality with them differently. I would never consider telling my daughter to remain chaste while telling my son to sow his “wild oats”. I’ve told them both that in the end, who they choose to be intimate with may very well help or hurt them in the long run, and that they should be very selective on who they choose to share themselves with.

    That being said, I’ve said the same thing about who they choose to be friends with as well. Who you associate with says a lot about you as a person. I believe the people (or maybe what TYPE of people) they choose to have sex with will do the same.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      Although the comic is a little funny, I’ve always found that particular angle of the “double standard” to be repugnant.

      I agree, but unfortunately I think you’re unusual. I have found in my community and in speaking to school groups that mothers and fathers are generally very proud to be parents of a real player (wink wink nudge nudge) and equally adamant that their daughter be chaste. Meanwhile, parents of sons who don’t have a date to the prom are shamed and respond defensively. And if a girl is caught doing something slutty at school, like giving a blowjob on the school bus, she’s likely to be sent to counseling and the parents hang their heads in shame. Trust me, I’ve seen all of this kind of intra-parent competition at the high school level.

  • Charm

    Dang it, the comment I posted last night would have been perfect for this blog post today. Ah well.

    So men who are less sexually experienced like you more? Interesting. Society tends to shun less experienced or virgin males? Even more interesting. I wonder what these men are doing during the time they are being shunned. Im assuming this is most likely to happen during the late teen’s early to mid 20’s? Seems like these men would be forced to focus on school and their career instead of chasing women. If no one else wants one, I’ll take him. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Charm

      Dang it, the comment I posted last night would have been perfect for this blog post today. Ah well.

      It was your comment and several others that inspired this post. That’s often the way it happens with me, and it’s why I am so grateful for lively comment threads.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    I’m reminded of the joke Newman tells in the opening of “The Verdict”.

    Man tells his friends “There’s a new bar in town where for $20 they give you 3 beers, a meal, and then take you in the back room and get you laid.”
    Friend : “You’re saying there’s a bar where for $20 they give you 3 beers, a meal, and then take you in the back room and get you laid? When did you go there?”
    Man: ” I didn’t, but my sister went there last night.”

  • Charm

    @Helen

    I would say just ask outright. Let him know that you don’t have casual sex nor do you care to be with someone who has had a lot of it.( I like to give people a one time pass if they’ve done it because everyone was young once and trying things out to see if you like them is a part of going up.) Anyway, he has three options:

    1. Tell the truth
    2.Lie
    3. Say “Why does it matter?”

    In either case you can choose how to react. You can’t know whether he is telling the truth or lying but on thing I know is that lies ALWAYS come back to bite people. Especially in my case. If you tell me something, I will NOT forget it. So when one of your friends casually mentions it 8 months later you bet there will be some fire for your ass. Like they said for women, eventually the truth will come out. If there is an insinuation I will notice it, wait until Ive collected enough proof, bring it up, and shut you down.

    If someone wants to play the “but why does it matter” or “none of your business” game, then Im out the door. I don’t play games with people. Its find if it doesn’t matter to that person, but they don’t get to chose what is important to me. Its not so much the number, but the story behind it. There is ALWAYS a story behind it. Always.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Charm,

    I like you. You’ve got a good head on your shoulders.

  • Jim

    @ Charm

    I was fat in my 20’s but I’m also blue collar. Two things not wanted in today’s society. Yet at 40, I been out of work for 6 months and still live in comfort. You figure it out.

    While women continue to shun men SO THEY CAN HAVE THEIR FUN, they are also shunning stable futures and in fact ensuring they are isolated. At my age, I don’t give women that are even close to my age range the time of day. I am simply not attracted to them especially when women who are much younger respond to my “attitude” that’s backed up by “life experience”. And believe me when I say, there are a lot of miserable, older women who would kill to have a companion.

  • alexamenos

    I love the ‘double standards’ discussion….

    One Wednesday morning I came to suspect that she was cheating on me. I became reasonably certain of this by Thursday afternoon, and I kicked her out of my life forevermore by Thursday evening, no further questions asked.

    The next ‘she’ came to suspect that I was cheating on her (I wasn’t, and never would, but that’s beside the point). She insisted that henceforth I wear a condom.

    I’ll add to the above that I’ve never had any interest in a serious, intimate relationship with a promiscuous woman, nor have I had any interest in a serious relationship with a promiscuous man.

    As for the cartoon at the top (hyperbole aside), it could very well be that the father has one standard — a standard of not wanting harm to come to his children — and that standard manifests itself in advising the daughter not to do things which may hurt her in the long run.

    Anyhoo….anytime I read someone griping about double standards I usually find that the person is either a) incapable of distinguishing ‘double standards’ from different people having different standards about different things; or b) a person of poor character who wants other people to lower their standards so their poor character isn’t so obvious.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Why don’t your daughter and your focus group girls comment on your blog? You’d think that since they’re the intended audience, they’d be a bit more vocal….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      Why don’t your daughter and your focus group girls comment on your blog? You’d think that since they’re the intended audience, they’d be a bit more vocal….

      There are a few reasons. One is that my daughter and her friends, both girls and guys, read HUS religiously. But commenting feels very open to them – none of them could keep anonymity for long. Since some of the drama includes these girls and guys, it could get pretty uncomfortable. Actually, if I could ever get two of them to do it, it would be an interesting He Said/She Said. As it is, though, my daughter is constantly fending off queries about whether a particular post is about so-and-so (it’s not). My daughter is particularly sensitive to my using personal details from her life, and no way is she going to provide more on her own.

      The second thing is that my groups have dispersed at this point. They graduated from college in 2010 and 2011. Some are in Boston, others have moved away. So our communication is irregular at this point. I am still in very regular touch with some of the women, but several are in serious relationships now and they’re all working full-time. HUS just isn’t bound to have remained a top priority for all these years.

      However, of the 10 or so that I still see very regularly, all read the threads pretty thoroughly. When we get together for “stories” they’ll quote Badger or say, “Ugh, that Doug!”

  • Charm

    @ Jesus

    Lol. Thanks.

    @Jim

    I am currently in my final year of college and am trying to lose about 50 pounds. I’ve been on the american diet way too long and now its time to move to a different tune, plus I know my chances for finding a mate will increase if Im slimmer plus my fertility will better if Im not carrying around excess weight. So, as of right now I too am just focusing on the future and not dating. I dont plan on getting married until my later 20’s but I can plan ahead, no?

    I think that a lot of women my age really do think they have forever to settle down, hell I might respect them more if they had a timeline set up like I do. I feel like women wake up one day, at like 28 and realize they want a husband and kids. But in no way have they planned for it. They don’t even know where to start. Guess 10 straight years of partying will do that to your brain cells.

    There is nothing more sexy to me than stability. You mean to tell me you already have an IRA/a stable job/and savings for a house? At 30? Well…hello there. LOL. I feel like women wake up and realize that these men are where it is at but they think stability=boring when it reality stability allows for you to have more fun because all your ducks are in a row and you don’t have to worry about things as much. I guess it boils down to whether you want benefit now for 5 mins or later for 5 years.

    Good for you for not dating the women near your age range. I think people have got it right when they say that women hit 30 and realize that they aren’t as “hot” as they thought they were. Then they get desperate and start seeking out men like you. Shun them. Shun them. Lol. Thats what they get.

  • escarondito

    @jesus baloney

    Agreed. I’ve always wondered that. Aunt sue?

  • Tom

    “Indeed, I do not believe that casual sex is immoral.”

    Which makes your “advice” highly suspect.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tom

      “Indeed, I do not believe that casual sex is immoral.”

      Which makes your “advice” highly suspect.

      I’m sure it does for some, and that’s why I wanted to clarify. I have found that because of my general opposition to feminism and promiscuity, I have a good number of readers who are religious. That’s fine – we may be working for the same ends – but our motives are different. I felt the need to clarify this because some readers get quite upset when I write a post about when to have sex while dating, or give some guy a high five for getting with some girl.

      Those who disagree with my views are certainly under no obligation to stick around. And of course no one is forced to implement my advice. There is plenty of room for disagreement, but I want readers to know where I stand on this.

  • VD

    That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.

    This time it’s different… you know, we’ve heard that one a few times before. That’s an absolutely stupid statement, completely devoid of evidence and easily disproved.

    What are some strategies for women to weed out men who have had many partners? How can you tell?

    Ask. If he’s smoothly evasive and doesn’t actually mention any quantity while changing the subject or flipping the frame onto you, he’s a player. If he’s not that experienced, he’ll be awkward and overly explanatory, going into weird details about this and that girlfriend. In general, if you’re left feeling halfway embarrassed for the guy, you’re safe. If you find yourself realizing half an hour later that you never got an actual answer, you’re screwed. So to speak.

    Perhaps the best example of this sort of non-answer was when Charles and Diana were asked if they were in love. She said: “Of course!” He said: “What is love?” and smoothly deflected the interviewer. If you get a “what is love” sort of philosophical answer, you’re probably in over your head. If you’re really unlucky, you’ll run into a Dark Gamer who will pull a Yohami on you. “Love love love, let’s bring this dream home.” Nothing you can do about that.

  • Mike

    @Charm 6

    Seems like these men would be forced to focus on school and their career instead of chasing women. If no one else wants one, I’ll take him. :)

    Good call. But again, if you follow trends like in Japan, most of these men who are left to their own devices while the women go off to play on the jackhammer playground carousel, these guys lose any drive to want to become a high earner and provider mentality. They don’t want to provide for anyone but themselves, and living alone on the cheap is stress free compared to racking up debt for a house full of shit you dont want and no room to call your own (save for the garage), and credit debt galore, etc…

    The only ones of these guys that are incel invisables that do end up going hard to become high earners more often than not will end up using it as a faux dark game crutch, ala ‘ill make it big and have women fawning over me for my cash and i can replace them with younger versions every year or so, like trading up a car.’

    Not to beat a dead horse, i just don’t think women understand just how deep the traumatic damage of being relegated to the sidelines for the entirety of a mans sexual peak really is. I still haven’t healed from that fully, and i’ve had 5+ years and 2.5 of those happily married, and it still haunts me as tho it were yesterday.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike,

    +1. I said the same thing to Jhane yesterday. Very often, men who are marginalized or “sidelined”, feeling lonely, are starving men. Starving men in a land of plenty develop real emotional wounds after a long enough time.

  • Anna

    @ Susan,
    when you say women often prefer more sexually experienced partners, do you mean men with a high number, a lot of casual sex or simply a lot of sex in total? I’m asking because men in several long term relationships have often had more sex than those sleeping around, even if the players happen to be good with girls, you usually don’t get 4-5 new ones per week.

    The problem for me with guys & sexual experience is that the only guarantee you can get is negative. If a guy is a virgin or has other tells such as a selfish personality or bad ways of touching you, you can be pretty guaranteed the sex won’t be great. But there is no guarantee it will be good – an experienced and sexual guy may be crap as well. In fact, a guy who’s an absolute dog is often a jackhammer. It’s hard to strike gold in this area – which is why many girls are hesitant and choosy with sex partners (more than moral reasons I might add! Where I’m from it’s pretty free and guys don’t care so much about a girl’s experience).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anna

      when you say women often prefer more sexually experienced partners, do you mean men with a high number, a lot of casual sex or simply a lot of sex in total? I’m asking because men in several long term relationships have often had more sex than those sleeping around, even if the players happen to be good with girls, you usually don’t get 4-5 new ones per week.

      Women appreciate men that other women want. So if a guy can put across that he has options, that you’re not his sexual lifesaver, it’s often enough. I don’t think women care so much about sexual expertise when they’re seeking a LTR – in my experience, one long weekend in bed is all it takes to learn how to blow a particular person’s mind.

      There’s also the clear point at which this surfeit of options can boomerang – and here I think it depends on how men treat those options. Jesus learned this summer that he could have 8 ONSs in a couple of months. At that pace, he could snag 50 women a year. But he has chosen not to, and he has a gf instead. That is the kind of selectivity that women reward. He would be a lot less appealing, for relationship-oriented women, if he’d hit it all 50 times. Many women would say that’s just gross.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    Where I’m from it’s pretty free and guys don’t care so much about a girl’s experience

    Where are you from? Because while most guys I know won’t care about your experience if they’re in it for the sex, just about all the guys I know of care about experience when it comes to relationships.

  • Charm

    @Roger

    Is his answer meant to be both sarcastic and throw her off? If so, it wouldn’t work on me. I’d stare at him blankly until he realized I wasn’t joking. Trying to throw me off is like trying to shoo a fly from fresh dog shit. It ain’t happenin’.

    @Mike

    Ive heard about Japan. Its a shame. Though, I’d hope that men didn’t allow womens behavior to fully dictate their happiness in life. Like right now, I am not the pick of any litter. Men in their early 20’s more often than not act like boys, so Im not a fan either way. I could get jaded by it, but I don’t. I know that in the future, when people grow up, they will be looking to settle down with someone like me. That also means that I can be more selective about who I choose.

    Did you not think of this when you were on the sidelines? I can’t say I know how men feel, because Im not a man but I do think that there are men and women who go unnoticed for long periods of time for whatever reason. It can be hard to take, but I like to put my mind over matter. Though, I will say that as a woman I don’t face the out right rejection because men typically have to approach the girls so *that* is probably a huge ego crusher. But on the bright-ish side, when women are looking to get off said carousel men like you can next the shit out of them until you find the girl that you want. Pay back is a bitch, no? Lol.

    I hope American men don’t just give up. That would be sad. I’d be disappointed.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Rollo,

    I don’t believe in Alphas. But I do have a problem with a woman who has slept with an asshole.

  • Anna

    @ Jesus,
    I’m Norwegian. I’m not saying it’s completely irrelevant, I’m just saying that I think the tolerance level is a lot higher. I know several girls with HIGH numbers who have bagged great guys. A friend of mine used to sleep around Oslo like crazy, she is today 26 and has never had a relationship before, yet met a great guy and is getting married. They have perhaps not discussed it all, but he is from the same law school so he’s bound to have a clue. She is a pretty girl and from a good family, so she’s not a bad match apart from the past. I suppose he’s just in love.
    I’ve seen more cases like these, yet not so much in other countries as the really attractive girls tend to couple up before that age (France is liberal but French girls are still terrified of being seen as sluts). I totally get how a man can be bothered by a woman’s past and I would prefer a guy not to have slept with half the town, which is why I watch out for myself and keep my number somewhat down. But I know for all Scandinavian countries the girls are used to different conditions.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Interesting. Do you foresee the former-slut-friend that’s engaged having a happy marriage?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Helen

    Also, make sure you listen to how he talks about the women he has been involved with. If every single girl he mentions is described as crazy, evil, or bitchy, I would be suspicious. I could understand 1-2 evil bitchy exes, but all of them being described that way is circumspect.

  • Anna

    @ JM
    Actually I do. She’s the best friend of a friend of mine and she’s always had a very extroverted personality and slightly immature for her age, and as an introvert, it took me some time to like her. But she has reached the point of being ready to settle down, and I honestly don’t think she will miss her single life. Despite her previous life, she is very traditional with family values and my friend told me she can’t wait to get married and have a baby. To be honest, I think a lot of women are in that position. It is natural for men to want to sleep around and have their fun, and have their first real commitment be when they settle down. Whereas if women do the same, guys see them as likely to cheat, flaky and unloyal. Like I said, I get the way of thinking but I do believe some can miss out on great partners that way. There are limits though – if a woman is 27+ and still sleeping around, that is probably more of a lifestyle than a temporary thing. And I feel the same way about guys 30+.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    The reason I asked is that I was in a similar situation. I don’t know what you consider a high number, but my ex-fiancee was at 24. Do you know if the man she’s marrying has had a similar past?

    I think casual sex is a bit flaky. Not a total deal breaker if it came up in someone’s past, but definitely a strike against her. Also, there’s the fact that usually people who sleep around easily aren’t sleeping with people are great character.

  • Mike

    @Rollo 23

    Men should be more concerned about the impact the last Alpha a woman banged had on her than the number of men she’s had sex with in total.

    Kate Perry :)

  • VD

    I know for all Scandinavian countries the girls are used to different conditions.

    I suggest you look at Scandinavian marriage rates before concluding that Scandinavian men are just peachy keen with marrying girls who have racked up significant body counts.

    “Only about 60% of Swedish people marry by the time they’re 40, compared to nearly 90% of Americans.”

  • Mike

    @Charm 24

    Did you not think of this when you were on the sidelines?

    No. I did not. All i thought about was.

    “Everyone else is having sex, and i am not”
    “I must be ugly as f*ck”
    “Why do i keep being nice, helpful, courteous, chivalrous, attentive and supportive? They sleep with mental tormentors and emotional recluses and come to me to cry about why they’re not like me”
    “My friends continue to rib me about my virginity”
    “God just kill me now”
    “I’m a f*cking loser”
    “If i ever become stinking rich, i’ll never admit to it. First girl that accepts me for me will get a super unexpected bonus.”
    “Man i’d kill for some sex right now”
    “I’m going to stick to my standards rather than f*ck some diseased whore”

    You know you hit rock bottom when your ‘friends’ start sending you links like this in your email. That was about the time i nearly locked myself in the garage and ran the engine.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwNVE37BGVE

    But im feeling much better now.

  • Anna

    @ VD
    I’m not Swedish but I can definitely see Sweden being a bit different from Norway in that area. However, I don’t think marriage rates indicates how the men feel about sexual promiscuity. The US is quite a religious country whereas Scandinavian countries are extremely secularized. Marriage is still strongly linked to Christianity and moving away from religion is one reason many Norwegians are not so concerned with marriage as many other countries. That doesn’t keep people from spending their lives together, in my mind living together and raising a child is not that different from actually tying the knot. My parents aren’t married (although he’s my stepfather, my mother just hasn’t remarried) and I don’t consider it weird. Anyway point is, I strongly doubt the lower marriage rates is that Scandinavians don’t like their own girls.

  • Wudang

    Anna, about picking good lovers. I look for a couple of things in women. Number one is probably that I sense some sort of sexuality/sensuality in her eyes. Number two is that I look at how she moves, wether she is present in her body or distant from it. Good “technical” control of and sensual awareness in the body = good in bed, for the most part. THree is how they touch. Four is how they dance. Does she follow well and does she generally dance good. As you are a women a clue for you would be does he seem to have enough ability to dominate and be deceisive in bed.

  • VD

    in my mind living together and raising a child is not that different from actually tying the knot.

    That’s the problem, Anna. It’s all in your mind. There is no shortage of scientific studies that show there is a massive difference between living together and raising a child versus tying the knot. And if you want to get anecdotal, I happen to know several unmarried Scandinavian couples, and in each case, they are not married because the guy wants the freedom to walk whenever it suits him. And in most cases, he is unfaithful.

    I live in Europe and I can say that in general, men who do not marry the mothers of their children are spectacularly unfaithful to them. It doesn’t even occur to them to do otherwise.

  • Anna

    @ Susan,
    I love that list. It is so spot on. I find it hilarious with guys who say “you can go down on me if you want”. I’ve never actually had a guy say that to me, but I’ve had one say “where would you like it?”, which pretty much indicates his hopes for the session. Or my favourite (while going down on him): “it’s all for you”. Gee, thanks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Or my favourite (while going down on him): “it’s all for you”. Gee, thanks.

      Haha! OMG that is unbelievable, what a line! Was he talking about his size, volume of sperm, what?

  • Wudang

    I think Rollo has a very good point about the past alpha lover. I know hte sex lives of a number of female friends quite well and a lot of the previous lovers made zero impact. They were just there at the right time to fullfill a general sense of horniness. The increased risk from a general ability for promiscuity is ONE problem. The likelyhood of someone having overalphaed you is another. Probably bigger problem.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Or my favourite (while going down on him): “it’s all for you”. Gee, thanks.

    The question is (assuming this wasn’t a relationship situation): did you still go down on him after he said that?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Wudang,

    How exactly does one “overalpha” someone in bed?

  • Anna

    @ VD
    I suppose it’s a matter of different social circles then. I know my share of players but none who refuse to marriage because of it. They’d rather stay single.
    Regarding my parents, I consider it pretty much impossible for my stepfather to cheat on my mum, as they spend every possible moment together (he is retired, otherwise he is around the house with me and my sister there). Adding to that, I cannot think of any other man less likely to cheat, but I don’t think you’ll take my word for it, as most girls think that way about their father.
    Most couples I know whom are not married when they’re practically living as married, chose so because of tax reasons and unbeneficial legislation. My parents would have a new set of fees if they were married.
    I have no doubt men marry more in the US, but why they do so with the unfavourable settlements bitter twists is beyond me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Most couples I know whom are not married when they’re practically living as married, chose so because of tax reasons and unbeneficial legislation. My parents would have a new set of fees if they were married.

      Well there’s a shortsighted economic policy.

  • Passer_By

    @Helen

    “What are some strategies for women to weed out men who have had many partners? How can you tell?”

    A good first clue is if he comes across as reasonably self assured, confident and interesting, and you’re really attracted to him. :)

    @munson

    Good one!!!

  • Anna

    @ JM
    “The question is (assuming this wasn’t a relationship situation): did you still go down on him after he said that?”
    Switched to intercourse (as I wanted to finish too). But it was the last time I chose to see him. He later asked why and I didn’t say anything. Perhaps I should have, he might not be aware that girls find it bleh.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Switched to intercourse

    Hm. Okay.

  • Charm

    @Mike

    I thought that bunny was cute, though very sad. Can’t believe people actually teased you about being a virgin. I often find that my perceptions about other people’s reality is often wrong. I might be envious of what other people are doing, but when I look closer they aren’t doing anything envy worthy at all.

    For example, I go to a big 10 college in the Midwest, and everyone is big on partying/football/hooking up. When I first got here I felt bad that I didn’t like any of these things and people actually judged me because of it. You know, “You don’t like beer?”, “You don’t live and die by football?”, “You’ve never hooked up before?”

    Then, I realized something. There are only a handful of people who actually like partying. Most people just follow the herd because they want to fit in and get the “college experience”. I’ve had numerous people confess to me that they only drink because they don’t want to be standing at a party with no drink in fear that others will judge them. Ive known girls and guys who regret hooking up or admit that theyve never done it. I think their is the air of ambiguity that convinces people of things that aren’t really true. Its like people are too afraid to say what they think out loud. I always discuss things out loud because I find there are people who agree but were scared no one else did.

    I’m glad you found someone finally. I find that if I read too many of these types of blogs that I become a little jaded and want to give up on people in general, but then I meet someone who changes my mind again and again.

  • Anna

    @ JM.
    I didn’t think much about it at the time. Despite this silly attitude he was very good in bed (most guys saying what Susan said are actually selfish). I later did a rerun of small tidbits of sayings and wondered what was up with him. His cocky attitude is rather fake though – when not in bed, he’s nervous.

  • Mike
  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    It’s cool. The idea of it turns my stomach, but what I think of it personally is irrelevant.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike,

    I started reading, but got confused because I don’t know what an alpha is. So I stopped.

  • Sassy6519

    Or my favourite (while going down on him): “it’s all for you”. Gee, thanks.

    Pffffffffffffffttttt!!!!!!!!! Hahahaha!!

    This just made my day. I can’t believe you continued with him after he said that.

  • Mike

    Anna 48

    So you still rewarded him sexually? That’s some bad clicker training there girl.

    Dog takes a dump on the living room carpet
    *click*
    Good boy.. here’s you liver treat.

    Am i the only one? Maybe the comment ‘Its all for you baby’ was taken in the spirit it was given?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Plus… I’m fortunate enough not to know who Kate Perry is beyond the recognition of her name. And I’d like to keep it that way.

  • Anna

    @ JM
    The fact that he considered his penis to be sent from God or that he was generous enough to offer it to me?
    I can be puzzled by things men say in bed, but honestly, if someone sat down on confronted me with everything I said during sex, I’d blush too.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    In short, women, go take care of those male virgins.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    No, what turned my stomach was that you fucked him after he said it.

  • Anna

    @ JM,
    that’s fine, but like I said I’m not one to take sex-outbursts too seriously. And I’m not one for walking out mid-session with a guy I know (unless he’s unpleasant). Just found him a bit of a dork at the time. “I’ll take the other bed tonight because of what you said”. Overreaction imo.

  • Mike

    @Charm 50
    >I’m glad you found someone finally.

    Sorry to tell dear, but i am 2 weeks away from filing divorce papers. 2.5 years of happy marriage ended Jan 2011. I wasn’t good enough for her. :\

    @Jesus 54
    > I started reading, but got confused because I don’t know what an alpha is. So I stopped.

    Lulz. Even if you don’t (highly dubious) if you stuck through the article you’d get the jist of it. Try it again, replace the word alpha with ‘gina-tingler’ and reread.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    That’s cool. Like I said, what I think is irrelevant. And I can respect your POV. That story just typifies why I’ve chosen to avoid promiscuous women for relationships.

  • Ted D

    Yeah, I’m with you Jesus M. I was a bit physically repulsed by that situation. This is exactly why I have NO interest in women that sleep with assholes. I would never be able to look or feel the same way about a woman if I ever found out something like this.

    Not trying to be critical of the OP, but I personally would view that as being used and abused. He basically thought of her as a servant to satisfy his needs. NOT the way I want anyone to view the person I love.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike,

    I know what people THINK alphas are, but I think it’s a stupid way of understanding the world. Plus, like I said, I’d rather not know more about Kate Perry than I already do. As if some pop star skank would be a good representative of women as a whole, anyway.

  • Ted D

    Anna – I can see that it may have been a “dorkish” slip if he was trying to talk dirty. But if he was in any way serious, he deserved to be booted the hell out, blue balls and all.

    At least you should have “accidentally” scraped your teeth. ;)

    To me it is a matter of respect. He certainly wasn’t respecting you as a person when he implied that you should feel privileged to such his cock. Then again, many of my casual sex issues revolve around personal respect.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    But the fact is that she didn’t think it was a dorkish slip, because she refused to fuck him after that “session”.

  • Anna

    @ Ted D,
    no he’s not amazing at dirty talk. Or talk in general. He’s trying to be dirty in bed and sweet in life. Other quotes include:
    “I don’t really watch porn. I prefer the real thing”.
    And when we first met and talked about music (in a serious tone):
    “I do listen to hip hop. But I don’t watch the music videos. I don’t like the way they portray women”.
    ….
    It was a charming try though.

  • Anna

    @ Ted D,
    Also, the “it’s all for you” is a little bit cute as he’s on the smaller side. As in it’s aalll for you. I’m probably the only one to find that funny.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Also, the “it’s all for you” is a little bit cute as he’s on the smaller side. As in it’s aalll for you. I’m probably the only one to find that funny.

      OK, now that could have a totally different meaning. Like, “I know I may not look like much, but whatever I have is yours.” IDK, if a guy said that to me in a relationship, I wouldn’t mind. It might be sorta cute. Like, “You’re the only woman who gets to do this.” If he’s a guy with options, that is a gift.

  • Emily

    >> When we get together for “stories” they’ll quote Badger or say, “Ugh, that Doug!”

    This made me Lol. I’m kind of worried that your Divorce Law post will bring the Doug + Angry MRA people back… I don’t miss them.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    See, now the story sounds different. Originally, you took the line to mean that his dick was god’s gift, and now you’re claiming it was some dorky, self-effacing humor. Give the hamster some kibbles and just own up to reality.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Emily,

    I’m hoping Sue has nixed the Divorce Law post plans. If the MRA arrives, I’m gone.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m hoping Sue has nixed the Divorce Law post plans. If the MRA arrives, I’m gone.

      I find myself in quite a conundrum. I gave my word I would address Marriage 2.0, which I do believe is fair if I am going to promote marriage. On the other hand, I got a ton of emails and comments saying “We don’t like this!” And of course, I didn’t enjoy the battle.

      I’m working on a post called Eat Pray Love Divorce, which is not unusual, and I think I’ll come at it from that angle, and the fact that men fearing divorce is the third most common reason men give for delaying or avoiding marriage.

      Some of you may be scarce for that discussion, which is fine. In any case, I plan to keep comments on topic and disallow any repetition or vicious attacks.

  • VD

    Regarding my parents, I consider it pretty much impossible for my stepfather to cheat on my mum, as they spend every possible moment together (he is retired, otherwise he is around the house with me and my sister there). Adding to that, I cannot think of any other man less likely to cheat, but I don’t think you’ll take my word for it, as most girls think that way about their father.

    No, I’m quite happy to take your word for it. You’re fortunate to have a good relationship with him, as too many young women in your position don’t. I’m not questioning the anecdotal example of your family at all, merely pointing out that your personal experience of Scandinavian pseudo-marital relations is no more statistically relevant than mine, and therefore is a poor basis from which to draw any substantive conclusions.

  • tvmunson

    BREAKING SCIENTIFIC NEWS!

    Sorry to disrupt the discussion but did you see where scientists actuall created “invisiblity”? It was only for a nanosecond, but they did it. Point is if it can be done, it’s commercial application is inevtiable. My first thought was no need for bikinis. Nope-gals you’ll spray this on and your pussy, assline (I think that’s what you’re protecting with a floss-thong) nipples, areolas-all that; “no eyes, guys.”

    I know you gals are saying “but we like pretty bikinis, we don’t want nothing.” hey they’ll add flower prints to the invisiblity, plus if you’ve got the kind of body that looks good in one you’ll go with basic black which I’m sure they can do (white too-it’s jsut a reversal of the color emission process).

    But one question and, ladies, it’s a sensitive one. Is “camel toe” something a gal promotes, or avoids? Seriously don’t know. My wife was getting into her bathing suit and I saw her start playing with her nipples. I though it was “go” time; turns out she just wanted to rock some “high beams” for her suit. So would if invisible meant no toe,would that be good or bad?

    Like I said it’s a sensitive deal. And I’m a sensitive guy-sensitive as a urinal, and almost as discriminating.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @munson

      You’re making even less sense than usual right now. As for camel toe, it hurts like hell. With all we have to offer, it’s depressing to think that men want to see that as well :(

  • Anna

    @ JM
    No, clearly he thought his dick was God’s gift, it was not ironic (what man can be ironic about his own penis size?). But obviously he feels the need to boost his own confidence due to a complex, as is the case with many men in bed. I personally find it funny, but that has nothing to do with it. I wouldn’t say I found it funny, as mocking a guy about his dick is a step too far. Didn’t feel the need to anyway, the sex was good, so what does it matter.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Munson,

    Scientists have been at work on invisibility for years. They’ve been doing it with ultraviolet rays for years with success. The way they do it is to create a “metamaterial” composing of molecules that are smaller than light rays. This allows the light “bend” around the material. The same way that a river will flow around a giant rock. The “cloaked” object refracts rather than reflects light.

    Not sure it would work on just a set of tits. You’d probably have to cloak the whole woman. The Taliban would enjoy that.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    It doesn’t matter. But a woman who can have sex with a cocky guy who thinks his dick is god’s gift to some casual lover… AND think the sex was good…. turns my stomach. Norwegian guys must be wired differently.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Excellent post. As usual, very insightful and data-driven. I forget who it was on your last post (maybe Malia?) who said you weren’t qualified to comment because you weren’t in “the game” anymore, but as someone who absolutely is in the game, you’re way more on point, informed, and wise about it than she is.

    This also made me think pretty introspectively, especially the bit about “players” losing interest after having sex. I’ve had to struggle with this with my current GF. I love her company and really enjoy being around her, but purely sexually my desire definitely went down a notch after we’d first had sex, and I began to look more positively at other “options” who I would have “scored” lower than her BEFORE I slept with her. I thought this was purely based on my trip-ups about commitment, but now with this post I think it may have more to do with the last 2.5 years being a constant “on to the next one” mentality. So on a personal note, thanks again for the insight.

  • Anna

    @ Susan
    ““I know I may not look like much, but whatever I have is yours.””

    Hah! It’s not just the penis, the entire him is petite. But cute all the same. I know he thought I was way too good-looking for him, so if this little comment was a self-esteem boost, then so be it. I don’t care much if it was to consider himself as “the master” or having me as a servant. The way things were between us, I had the upper hand most of the time. If we changed that in bed, I have no problem with it. I know some people disagree with this, but one has to feel degraded for something to be degrading. If the guy wanting to be dominating in bed equals to degrading, we should ban light spanking and doggy style as well. But then everybody loses! :D

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    It’s all cool. You just portrayed the comment much differently at first. And, you said, it caused you not to see him again. If you thought the comment merited not having any more sex with him, then… why did you have sex with him?

    But I’m coming at it from the angle of a person who does believe that casual sex is wrong… for me. And for anybody I want to involve myself with. So, idk, I guess to me the situation would be off from the start. As in, why are you fucking guys you don’t care enough to see exclusively anyway? And then fucking them still when they’ve said something that you’ve acknowledged made you never want to fuck them again…. except for that one time… which was good.

  • tvmunson

    @Susan #84

    Where did I say men wanted to see that?
    Read #78.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @munson

      Where did I say men wanted to see that?

      You didn’t, my mistake. Re the camel toe, that’s a sign that things are too tight. We’ve all rocked a pair of jeans that way at one time or another, and I can tell you it can take several days to recover…poor bean.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I know some people disagree with this, but one has to feel degraded for something to be degrading.

    Not sure this is true. I think that a prostitute degrades herself even if she doesn’t feel degraded. So does a drug user.

  • http://kaneadvice.wordpress.com Kane

    …men with high numbers of sex partners, but not men with low numbers of partners, experienced a decrease in their partner’s physical and sexual attractiveness following first-time sexual intercourse.

    This was my experience. After blowing my load, I felt compelled to leave and I HATED providing the girl with any sort of emotional intimacy afterwards. I often would give her a little intimacy if I wanted to see her again, but it was usually forced. If after banging a girl, I didn’t feel an instinctual desire to run away, I knew I liked her a great deal more than most girls.

    Here’s a list of some more double standards you might like to consider the next time you decide to broach the topic:

    http://9gag.com/gag/1574954

    Truth.

  • Anna

    @ JM
    I know you speak from a different standpoint (wait, what did Susan say about 8 ONS during the last summer? that is more than my total, bfs included), but I can give a quick clue:
    – I started seeing him at 18 (lost my virginity 1 year before, long wait), liked him, he lived in a different country, so never considered anything serious with him
    – sex was great and as I wasn’t seeing anyone else, saw him when I had the time
    – always had the passion and liking him, but started feeling something more.
    – decided I wanted someone to be with, realized that wasn’t him (from a combination of things, arrogant bed behavior being contributory).

  • Charm

    @Mike

    That sucks. I always want to believe the best in people. Im still young, and have be disappointed by people a lot but I find I still want to believe the best in them. I hope you don’t let your divorce screw with your happiness from this point on. Just hearing about divorce makes me want to never get married. :(

  • jess

    charm:
    “Trying to throw me off is like trying to shoo a fly from fresh dog shit. It ain’t happening’.”

    If I may so you have not picked the most flattering of comparisons there but I applaud the forcefulness of your views!

    Gudenuf:
    “That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.”

    Yes- I completely agree with you there

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Charm

    I wonder what these men are doing during the time they are being shunned. Im assuming this is most likely to happen during the late teen’s early to mid 20’s? Seems like these men would be forced to focus on school and their career instead of chasing women. If no one else wants one, I’ll take him.

    We learned, worked, and tried to improve ourselves. Often under the premise that we weren’t good enough to attract a woman, and had to do better. That it was our fault. Guess what? Not true.

    You mean to tell me you already have an IRA/a stable job/and savings for a house? At 30? Well…hello there.

    Hello, thanks for but no thanks. I worked for these assets; no one’s taking them away. Bye now.

    I hope American men don’t just give up. That would be sad. I’d be disappointed.

    More of us are giving up daily. It IS sad. But frankly, your disappointment no longer concerns us at all.

    @Mike

    Not to beat a dead horse, i just don’t think women understand just how deep the traumatic damage of being relegated to the sidelines for the entirety of a mans sexual peak really is. I still haven’t healed from that fully, and i’ve had 5+ years and 2.5 of those happily married, and it still haunts me as tho it were yesterday.

    Nailed it. Now imagine if you didn’t have those 5 years. (Congrats, by the way.)

  • Anna

    @ JM,
    yes but drug use is something you do to yourself and the entire shame is brought on by you. If someone says something to you, is it always up to them if it is degrading? If a friend of yours say something insulting to you when drunk or otherwise, and you find it just silly, doesn’t care and shrug, can he say later that he humiliated you? Or does one need to bring a panel of people to decide, if many enough say that you have reason to be ashamed, you are sentenced to be ashamed?
    I agree this is different from situation to situation, but I recall a friend of mine saying that her bf loved ejaculating on her and she did so because he loved it and “the juice is holy to him but about as sacred as porridge to me”.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yes, 8 ONSs. Stu(pi)d, right?

    Kidding. Yea, I went through some stuff this summer a while after my fiancee and I split. It was a mistake.

    Like I said about casual sex, it’s not a deal breaker to me. As long as someone’s decided that it’s not right for them. Though, you know, a huge number would be seriously off-putting.

    I just don’t get the bit about fucking someone who acts like an asshole. The way you portrayed things at first, this was the comment of an asshole. So, if that in fact was the case, and you fucked him anyway, then…. you know, blech. But if not, then whatever…

  • jess

    tvmunsen

    I have been reliably by certain men that camel-toe is ‘hot’

    guys are weird

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Idk. The juice being holy to your friend’s boyfriend sounds… well, if not pretty cocky, then just flat out bizarre. Probably he was degrading her in his mind. Maybe not though. My guess is that if he had a thing for it, then it was probably in her face. Sounds like Rivelino.

    If someone says something to you, it’s always up to you if it’s degrading. You either allow them to degrade you or you don’t. But, if someone says something that you think he intends to be degrading, and then you climb on his dick and fuck him immediately following…. then, yea, you’ve allowed yourself to be degraded.

  • Doug1

    Anna—

    I have no doubt men marry more in the US, but why they do so with the unfavourable settlements bitter twists is beyond me.

    There’s a lot of social pressure to marry at least among professionals and probably especially in big businesses in the US. Though that doesn’t really apply once you’ve been divorced. Then co-habiting with a woman doesn’t raise many eyebrows. Girl’s family is likely to try to pressure her/you though.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Dum dum dum….. Doug’s back.

  • Anna

    @ JM
    I never said he was an asshole, but I thought he had the potential to be a bit of a dork.
    In the heat of the moment I considered it a regular sexual outburst. Later on I thought it was simply silly. Much later on, I decided not seeing him again, mainly because he wasn’t the bf I was looking for. That is about as simple as I can put it. I considered him interested enough, nice enough and sexy enough to share a bed with, and I tend to finish what I started. Could say it was a mistake, but honestly I really don’t regret any sex I’ve had.

    I suppose this would all be easier if people weren’t in such a lively and unorganized mood when having sex. If when a girl went “spank me!”, you’d stop and think, “what did she mean by that?”.

    Well hey at least I haven’t had anonymous sex with 8 people :D

  • Doug1

    Charm—

    Can’t believe people actually teased you about being a virgin. I often find that my perceptions about other people’s reality is often wrong.

    Guys get teased if they exit high school a virgin; they definitely will if they exist their freshman year in college that way, and few would probably admit it.

  • Ted D

    “I know some people disagree with this, but one has to feel degraded for something to be degrading.

    Not sure this is true. I think that a prostitute degrades herself even if she doesn’t feel degraded. So does a drug user.”

    Yeah, saying that something is only degrading if the subject thinks it is sounds a lot like moral relativism to me. I believe some things are degrading regardless of how the people involved feel. It is a personal decision obviously, as only *I* can know what *I* believe is degrading.

    So to me, yes a prostitute is degrading herself, as is a stripper, porn start, etc. A woman that allows herself to be used for a man’s pleasure only, even if she WANTS it, is still degrading herself. A guy that makes it his goal to bang as many women as possible regardless of quality or any other emotional connection is degrading himself. I can say the same for heavy drug use, heavy drinking, whatever. In short, if you are acting in ways that ONLY satisfy the physical needs without a higher purpose (in terms of sex/drug use/etc), there is a damn good chance it is degrading. Of course there are widely varying degrees of relevance here. And again, its a very personal list.

    And that is pretty close to the root of why women that have sex with asshole repel me. In that act, they chose to degrade themselves. And if they think so little of themselves, how will they ever respect me?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Actually, it was only anonymous with 4. Another girl I knew from a while back. And the other three weren’t one nighters. But they were casual.

    So, point taken.

  • Anna

    @ JM
    I didn’t climb on his dick after a comment I thought was degrading. It was mentioned regarding a sample of quotes Susan mentioned being typical of players or guys who are too into themselves. Perhaps players have more of a degrading personality, I don’t know. But I thought he was silly for being so into his tiny dick and consider it sacred. If he had said something “classically” degrading like “shut up bitch” things would of course be different. Sure, maybe he meant it degrading and I was a total fool and didn’t realize. Too bad his demeaning behavior didn’t get through OR I was degraded without my knowledge. I really don’t care.

  • Ted D

    Jess – “Gudenuf:
    “That is not true. There has been a shift in the way people judge other’s sexuality, and the double standard is becoming more egalitarian.”

    Yes- I completely agree with you there”

    Can you elaborate? I’m sure GE will later, but I’d like to know how you think this is changing? Again, in my circle of people (and yes I have acknowledged many times it IS a small circle) I don’t know of one single guy that is anything less that neutral in regards to a woman’s past partner count, and most are pretty put off by high numbers. And yes, at least one of them could be labelled a hypocrite as his number is pretty up there. That doesn’t change his opinion in the least, even when I pointed it out by the way…

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Rollo,

    So then what, you would say that Alpha can be defined by how a woman responds to you? If a woman feels like you had a certain level of dominance in the sack, then that makes you Alpha?

    I’m not sure I’m understanding you.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’m not trying to put you down, Anna. You don’t have to get defensive. If you didn’t find the comment degrading, then no, I would say you didn’t degrade yourself (beyond the fact of having had casual sex, of course… which I’m guilt of as well).

  • Jesus Mahoney

    And Rollo,

    Do you follow Kate Perry? Isn’t she some, like, idk, teeny-bopper idol?

  • Ted D

    “Guys get teased if they exit high school a virgin; they definitely will if they exist their freshman year in college that way, and few would probably admit it.”

    Straight up, I was getting slack from some of my male peers at 16 for still being a virgin. Although before my 17th birthday I took care of that issue, one of my closest friends was a virgin until he was 20, and he took shit ALL the time from other guys. Not me, I thought they were all assholes and suggested he should stick to his guns. He didn’t, got some girl knocked up, and made a mess of his life for about 5 years. We lost touch, but I think he finally pulled it together and got back on track.

  • Wudang

    The female commenter Hitori on fastseduction.com says that men with little ability to get sex seek tension release while men with easy access to sex seek tension buildup as they already can get their tension released. That fits with the science here. So when a man with few partners gets sex it triggers more emotions and bonding in him because sex per se is so valuable to him. A more sexually experienced man normally do not have this reaction but presumably DO get it when he experiences proper tension buildup first. I see a few ways that can happen. One is that the woman is more attractive than the women he usually gets with or otherwise more attractive to him because of the way he connects with her or the total LTR potential package she presents. Another way is that the woman holds out longer for the sex and otherwise makes him work to get her. Otherwise work for it in this context does not have to mean “beta style work for it” but fight with every player skill he has to just barely get her (in his mind). A third way is to just come of as selectively hard to get as Susan talked about in a previous post.

    From reading at PUA forums it seems to me that for the players that get women in the 8-10 range it is more the emotional connection rather than physical hotness that actually hooks him and makes him fall. Women somewhere in that range are generally accessible to him for sex anyway so thats no prize. Factors such as great in bed femininity and good attitudes etc. are necessary and often mentioned as important but when they talk about the one their with or the one that left or they felt they had to leave but miss it is generally some sort of emotional connection that separated the girl rather than looks.

    By the way, I highly recomend looking up Hitoris archieves at fastseduction as she is, possibly, the only really highly regarded and trusted female poster about pickup. I put quite a lot of weight on what specific women here that have earned my respect in terms of views on pickup that I agree with but I still always expect them to make judgment errors from time to time because women are programmed to not see certain of these things clearly. From what I have read of Hitori she is the only one that seems to be as good and consistent in analyzing pickup as the best male posters.

  • Doug1

    Jesus Mahoney–

    Not sure this is true. I think that a prostitute degrades herself even if she doesn’t feel degraded.

    That’s just feminist and (some) Christian ideology. Read Maggie McNeill. She certainly disagrees. She’s a former New Orleans escort who’s college educated, retired, married (to a former client), very intelligent and an excellent writer. She blogs about all aspects of higher end prostitution, and sometimes about myths about most of the lower end too. Her blog is titled “The Honest Courtesan”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      Feminism celebrates sex work, it doesn’t consider it the least bit degrading.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Maybe I’m mixing things up. I thought Kate Perry was some pop star who’s marketed to 13 yr old girls.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Dough,

    I’m neither a Christian nor a feminist, but anybody who sells her coochie for cash certainly degrades herself in my book.

  • Doug1

    Jesus Mahoney–

    The whole “false consciousness” think that feminist trot out for call girls that don’t feel their work is necessarily degrading (if they don’t let it be), is pure Marxist derived dogma.

  • Sassy6519

    I just thought of something regarding Katy Perry. One of her songs is titled “Thinking of You”, and it is very similar to “The One That Got Away”. Here are the lyrics.

    “Comparisons are easily done
    Once you’ve had a taste of perfection
    Like an apple hanging from a tree
    I picked the ripest one, I still got the seed

    You said move on, where do I go?
    I guess second best is all I will know

    ‘Cause when I’m with him I am thinking of you
    (Thinking of you, thinking of you)
    Thinking of you, what you would do
    If you were the one who was spending the night
    (Spending the night, spending the night)
    Oh, I wish that I was looking into your eyes

    You’re like an Indian Summer in the middle of winter
    Like a hard candy with a surprise center
    How do I get better once I’ve had the best?
    You said there’s tons of fish in the water, so the waters I will test

    He kissed my lips, I taste your mouth, oh!
    (Taste your mouth)
    He pulled me in, I was disgusted with myself

    ‘Cause when I’m with him I am thinking of you
    [ From : http://www.elyrics.net/read/k/katy-perry-lyrics/thinking-of-you-lyrics.html ]
    (Thinking of you, thinking of you)
    Thinking of you, what you would do
    If you were the one who was spending the night
    (Spending the night, spending the night)
    Oh, I wish that I was looking into

    You’re the best, and yes, I do regret
    How I could let myself let you go
    Now, now the lesson’s learned
    I touched it, I was burned
    Oh, I think you should know!

    ‘Cause when I’m with him I am thinking of you
    (Thinking of you, thinking of you)
    Thinking of you, what you would do
    If you were the one who was spending the night
    (Spending the night, spending the night)
    Oh, I wish that I was looking into your, your eyes
    Looking into your eyes, looking into your eyes

    Oh, won’t you walk through?
    And bust in the door and take me away?
    Oh, no more mistakes
    ‘Cause in your eyes I’d like to stay, stay”

    Hypergamy and pining after a lost alpha are all over that one. At least she is consistent, I will say that much.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yea, I’m sure that’s it, Doug. People who peddle their asses for money really aren’t selling themselves short.

  • Ted D

    “That’s just feminist and (some) Christian ideology. Read Maggie McNeill. She certainly disagrees. She’s a former New Orleans escort who’s college educated, retired, married (to a former client), very intelligent and an excellent writer. She blogs about all aspects of higher end prostitution, and sometimes about myths about most of the lower end too. Her blog is titled “The Honest Courtesan”.”

    That may be Doug1, but it is still how I roll and have no plans on changing it. I’ve said before that a lot of my morality is based in Catholic teachings, so you are probably right. Still doesn’t change anything in the least. All it really does is say to me that people who are OK with casual sex are probably less moral and ethical than I am. Of course that is probably not true for everyone, but that is kinda the view I hold already.

    I’m sure many will fault me for that view, saying I’m “looking down my nose” or sitting on “my high horse”. That’s fine. I’m good with being viewed as a moral snob. I’ve said before, I will judge everyone using my own criteria, and no matter how much wailing and gnashing of teeth occurs, that isn’t going to change. I don’t have a problem with it because I don’t allow my judgments to change how I treat people. In fact, as an introvert, I don’t deal directly with people often anyway, so I rarely even have to filter my interactions based on my judgments.

    What that means is: just because I’m nice to a person, doesn’t mean I don’t have a rather low opinion of them. I imagine it comes from the “don’t hate the sinner, hate the sin” line of thinking.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Rollo,

    Okay, then yes, I’d agree with you. If a woman’s last lover was her ideal man, and her next lover is not… then, yea, he’s got a lot to worry about. Or not. He should just find a new woman.

  • Ted D

    Rollo – man your kinda depressing me here… So, what you are saying is, the more Alpha’s a woman has had sex with, the MORE Alpha a guy will need to get and keep her?!

    If there was ever a reason to skip promiscuous women for LTRs, this is it!

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted,

    Not to worry, there’s no such thing as alpha.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    Some of you may be scarce for that discussion, which is fine. In any case, I plan to keep comments on topic and disallow any repetition or vicious attacks.

    You certainly allowed vicious attacks on me, such as by munson, and cheered them on. You left up his last attack on me which was about all in shouting all caps, calling me “a liar” and saying he “has my number”, and that “I own you [me] now pussy”, then closed off comments before I could respond. I think he was drunk.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      There is no good way of closing comments without leaving some people hanging. It’s an arbitrary decision re who gets the last word.

      In any case, I do not plan to allow vicious attacks on the divorce post. I’ll be wielding the comment machete on that one.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    Not to worry, there’s no such thing as alpha.

    There´s no such thing as a spoon either, but Im having my cereal with it.

  • Ted D

    JM – yeah I get where you are coming from there. The descriptions alpha/beta/whatever are very limiting. But, the takeaway is if a woman spends years banking really dominant guys, it is going to take a VERY dominant guy to get and keep her around. That is depressing, especially of the woman keeps going for the more assholean types because she needs to escalate the dominant rush she is looking for. It really is a bit like drug addiction.

    Former drug addiction is one of my instant deal-breakers. I would never put someone down for being addicted and getting clean, but it proves they have an addictive personality and possibly issues with impulse control. Clearly bad new.

  • Anna

    @ Ted D
    I agree that drug use and prostitution is degrading. But I believe there is a mutual feeling of degrading there – drug addicts are usually ashamed on some level of their illness, although some would have us believe many women choose to be prostitutes, mostly they do not. Even so, they need the money to cover up expenses they are not proud of (like drug use or luxury habits they cannot afford). Even if a prostitute claim to be secure in her choice, she will most likely not have told friends, family or gone public with it – which means she’s ashamed.
    I still think that a lot of guys find degrading treatment bad because they are more likely to identify with the guy. It is more common for men to degrade women – sexually, at work, through violence – than the other way around. In addition to that, once a situation like that has taken place, men are more likely to imagine the guy’s mind, and you find it degrading – I assume – because his sense of domination and wanting to put a woman down is something you on some level recognize in yourself. Otherwise you couldn’t automatically make that assumption. I’m not saying it’s bad or unnatural – to rape or being raped is actually two of the main fantasies buried deep inside most men and women, sometimes coming to life when we sleep.
    Speaking of prostitution, I don’t know if “Secret diary of a call girl” has been shown in the US. It is based on a biography of a real life call girl, a woman with a Phd, who says she did it for fun. Anyway, there is a scene where Belle, the call girl, has been hired by a man and he has asked her to pee on him. From her facial expression we get that she is slightly uncomfortable with this idea, but she finishes the job. We can probably all agree that being peed on is a definite degrading treatment. The scene is great because it puzzles the audience and makes you think about who is being degraded. Maybe both, if there is such a thing. But I do believe that if two people are actually degrading each other, that is another kind of degrading behavior. It is not humiliation, role play or showing domination (which we are talking about in terms of dirty talk), it is simply two people practicing a behavior which is frowned upon by some, or many. As when you mention a guy sleeping around – that is your opinion, mine too actually, but not everyone’s. In the case of prostitution, some would say their both degraded, many would say only the woman, some would say mostly the man, as he is giving up his hard earned money to a woman who pretends to feel a desire for him, and fulfilling a need he is not capable of fulfilling on his own (hence feeling like less of a man). Prostitution is a special case, as it consists of two actors wanting to be the best man (getting laid) and woman (being desirable) they can be.

  • Wudang

    Rollo:

    “It’s not a numbers game, it’s an Alpha game.”

    The general promiscuity is still a factor. If you meet your wife in her late twenties and by that time she has never had casual sex with anyone that pretty much rules out cheating through casual encounters. No chance of cheating during work travels or grrrrrrrls night out helps a lot. There are other aspects to this as well such as high number correlates with not being able to delay gratification (at least with regards to sex/romance) and that indicates it will be difficult for her to discipline herself to reach the goals of long term benefits of being faithful by sacrificing short term gratification in terms of cheating. A lower number in my mind indicates a far grater ability to get through a bad period in a relationship without cheating or leaving. Most people will need that ability to make a LTR work. IF you are the most alpha guy she has been with that is the most important probably but your job will be probably be easier and the odds better if her general number is down.

  • Anna

    Ah stuck in moderation.

    @ Susan, is it possible to edit posts?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anna

      Sorry, no edit function. The comment threads function much better without the bells and whistles, I’m afraid.

  • Ted D

    Wudang – surely. Especially when you consider that many of the men in the casual sex parade are already alpha/dominant/assholes. The more men a woman has had sex with, the more likely she has had sex with alphas.

    And now it is a numbers game again. :)

  • Doug1

    …men with high numbers of sex partners, but not men with low numbers of partners, experienced a decrease in their partner’s physical and sexual attractiveness following first-time sexual intercourse.

    How I feel after first sex with a new girl really depends on the girl. If it’s a rather hardened slut esp. if she’s not so good in bed, though they usually are good if they feel like being good, then yeah I’ll tend to feel this way. If she’s more innocent and I really blow her mind and she gets all emotionally into me, especially if I otherwise like her a lot, then I tend to not feel this way.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Mike

    Damn…I jumped ahead to comment earlier. Didn’t have the chance to finish reading the list until now. Just saw your divorce mention.

    First thing – sorry to hear about it. I hope it goes as smoothly as possible. If you need advice, I can point you to some resources.

    Second thing – My congrats were meant for the 5 happy years you had with the woman. Though I could also congratulate you for getting out of a bad situation and back to a freer life!

    @Susan

    I find myself in quite a conundrum. I gave my word I would address Marriage 2.0, which I do believe is fair if I am going to promote marriage. On the other hand, I got a ton of emails and comments saying “We don’t like this!” And of course, I didn’t enjoy the battle.

    I thought you decided what was posted here? If this blog’s bowing to pseudo-feminist shaming, that would be quite sad.

    Personally, I find the whole anti-MRA thing quite laughable. I could be considered an MRA (though I prefer speaking on MGTOW here). They can rail on MRAs all they want…just looks bad on them.

    Anyway, on topic now.
    “While women often prefer men who have sexual options, and consequently some sexual experience, they would do well do avoid promiscuous men.”
    This makes a lot of sense, considering the player/invisible men dynamic. However it’s up against a lot of opposing factors: a woman’s SMP uncertainty, feminist dogma, a man’s confidence/game, physical attractiveness judgements, etc.
    Can’t think of a solution right now; just wanted to chip in.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chris

      I thought you decided what was posted here? If this blog’s bowing to pseudo-feminist shaming, that would be quite sad.

      Of course I decide, but I often ask readers for feedback and I always consider it. It really wasn’t a case of feminist shaming, I don’t think. Some just found the tenor of the debate rather intense and sometimes unpleasant, and they let me know.

      As I said, I gave my word and I will put up a post early next week about Marriage 2.0. It has quickly become clear that the topic is massive, so I plan to run a series of occasional articles. The first will introduce men’s view of marriage as risky, and the effect of that on the marriage rate. For most of my readers, what’s needed is a primer – the whole concept of EPL, for example, will be new.

  • tvmunson

    Jess #98 It’s munson.
    1) men like “camel toe”-agree; only I didn’t say it in post Susan alluded to
    2_guys are weird-true; Are you suggesting that women for the most part ignore a guys “moose knuckle”?

    PROOF OF INHERENT DISTINCTION BETWEEN MEN & WOMEN

    Fire was discovered somehwere between 750,000 (outside) and 400,000 (generally accpeted). In all the multitides of generations since it’s discovery, do you think it ever occurred to a group of girls t light a fart?

    I rest my case.

  • Wudang

    JM:

    “How exactly does one “overalpha” someone in bed?”

    I didn`t mean overalpha in bed but overalpha in terms of attraction/dominance.

    But I guess by being a BDSM dungeon master you could definitively overalpha someone in bed in some sense but not sure how big impact being more dominant in bed will have on overall attraction. For the most part increase it a fair bit but unless one is dominant to a certain degree outside the bedroom I think the effect is limmited although valuable.

  • Mike

    I almost feel like i should start blogging. But im not there yet. However i wanted to touch on something Yohami said earlier, in another thread i can’t find.

    To the effect of : It’s not a woman’s place to teach a man how to be dominant / alpha / whatever.

    He’s quite right.. so im wondering who is responsible. Nature vs. Nurture?

    If you took a baby boy and threw him into a jungle alone… he’s dead in minutes when he goes to play with the tiger. Not cool.

    Guess dad picks up the slack.

    But what if dad isn’t around? (single mom)

    What if dad is a cuckolded beta shmuck?

    What if dad is a strong but suplicating beta?

    What if all you see is TV shows like Home Improvement where Tim Allen is a moron who’s always making his wife mad with his bumbling bad behavior, and always has to defer to her, lest he crawl of to ‘always good advice’ Wilson on how to stop being a stupid guy and get in touch with his feminine side to soothe the ruffles, become more beta and all is forgiven.

    I really need to sit down and figure out just where men are supposed to discover their ‘alphaness’ lies. It obviously isn’t Nature, else all men would alpha up like puberty or something.

  • Doug1

    Rollo Thomassi—

    @Ted, you’re missing the point, it’s not the promiscuity, it’s the lasting impact of the men she’s slept with. If your wife’s romantically nostalgic for the high school quarter back (or the One that got away) who took her virginity at 18 does it matter if she’s slept with 12 chumps up until she met her beta provider husband?

    Yeah I read your most recent blog post on that.

    I think it’s both. Both total numbers and how much more sexually attractive the hottest guy she’s ever slept with is than her beta husband. I think both will tend to deaden the ability/tendency for girls to fall adoringly into intense love for her husband in the initial “honeymoon” limerance stage.

    Actually the first factor is I think a little more complicated and nuanced than simply hottest guy she ever slept with once. Because of the way female sexuality and bonding/falling in love works, and having perceived great sex when really in love, I don’t think a ONS with 35 yo George Clooney is gonna ruin her, but her having an intense fling with him, in which she falls intensely in love and perceives/believes he’s falling for her too, just more slowly, and then he breaks her heart by dumping her or keeping on seeing two other girls without hiding it much, THAT will leave a lasting impact.

  • Emily

    >> It’s not a woman’s place to teach a man how to be dominant / alpha / whatever.

    This is true, but at the same time there are things that a woman can do if she ‘s losing attraction/wants to see more “alpha” in the relationship.

    I’ve said this before, but I really think that if you treat a guy like a (good) Alpha then he’ll start acting more like one.

    Although this probably only works if the foundation is already there.

  • Wudang

    I think an important factor is that the lower partner count guys likely view most or all their lays as potential girlfriend material (by necessity or because of views on casual sex). HTe higher partner count guys will we most women as potential short term conquests or at best potential fuckbuddies even before the sex and so attraction will diminish once the sex is over as they aren`t really looking for more. But a few women they will look at as LTR potential and probably not get dimished attraction for. The lower partner count guys might still get exactly the same reaction towards a woman as the player often has if he is certain a woman will only be for casual sex. Such as if on vacation or he views her as not hot enough or too sluty or there are other dealbreakers. In studies of this of course high partner count guys will have a higher average of loss of attraction because they so often go to bed with women they already view as only casual sex potential. That does not mean they have lost the general ability to maintain attraction or that this mechanism plays a part once a woman is viewed as LTR potential as evidenced by what Doug1 says.

    Another possibility is that high testosterone in itself is what creates this effect. The more testosterone the less pairbonding. Betas with low testosterone would hence have a stronger pairbonding reaction just like a woman regardless of partnercount.

    I think this all ties in with womens desire for a rather aloof and cold high testosterone man that gets emotionally connected only to her. His masculinity and access to sex makes sex itself not pairbonding enough but the emotions she can generate in him by being the most attractive or through the emotional connection is what makes him stay in her mind and that is probably exactly right.

  • Doug1

    Wudang—

    The general promiscuity is still a factor. If you meet your wife in her late twenties and by that time she has never had casual sex with anyone that pretty much rules out cheating through casual encounters. No chance of cheating during work travels or grrrrrrrls night out helps a lot. There are other aspects to this as well such as high number correlates with not being able to delay gratification (at least with regards to sex/romance) and that indicates it will be difficult for her to discipline herself to reach the goals of long term benefits of being faithful by sacrificing short term gratification in terms of cheating. A lower number in my mind indicates a far grater ability to get through a bad period in a relationship without cheating or leaving. Most people will need that ability to make a LTR work.

    IF you are the most alpha guy she has been with that is the most important probably but your job will be probably be easier and the odds better if her general number is down.

    I agree with this. Also if she has lowish numbers it indicates that she hasn’t bought into sex positive feminism, with all it’s other pernicious anti male and pro divorce for any ole reason ideas, but instead has more traditional ideas of morality, decorum, and what’s attractive long term in women.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    There is no good way of closing comments without leaving some people hanging. It’s an arbitrary decision re who gets the last word.

    Then you should at least have long since taken down munson’s last comment. I don’t see how it could have been any more violative of you comments policies. As well it was based on the absurd premise that all non litigators two decades out of law school would know the answer to his little federal civil procedure riddle.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      You deserve the award for the most off-topic comments on a blog, so I don’t think you’re in a position to slap my knuckles re the comment policy. I often relax it. We all know how munson communicates, and he was totally fed up with you. So was everyone else in that thread.

      Anyway, onward. Let’s not rehash a thread that is dead and buried.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Umslo

    The rest just ignored you and continued chatting merrily…like nothing happened. Does this sound right to you? It certainly doesn’t to me.

    We love Mike, but in all honesty, we have heard Mike’s story many times. Most, if not all, have offered words of support many times. Charm is new. Please don’t extrapolate from this, you’re barking up the wrong tree here.

    I’ve deleted your comment, as I routinely delete all comments of the “America is a dunghole” variety.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    Feminism celebrates sex work, it doesn’t consider it the least bit degrading.

    There’s a big split among feminists on that. In fact that’s really how sex positive or third wave feminism differentiated itself from other feminists. Sex positive feminists said that sex work, including stripping, porn and prostitution could be empowering if done the right way and she’s in control. Feminists such as Cartherine McKinnon said it was inherently degrading, a product of the patriarchy, and that any belief by strippers or escorts that it isn’t necessarily degrading is the result of “false consciousness” put there by men, naturally.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      There’s a big split among feminists on that. In fact that’s really how sex positive or third wave feminism differentiated itself from other feminists. Sex positive feminists said that sex work, including stripping, porn and prostitution could be empowering if done the right way and she’s in control.

      Correct, and the losers picked up their toys and went home. The third wave is positive on sex work.

  • Charm

    @Chris_in_CA

    I’d never take advantage of a man who had his life together. I too plan on having all of those things before 30, so I guess it’s me projecting my idea of responsibly on to other people. I’d prefer to marry an equal rather than being one of those gals who tries to “marry up”.

    Im assuming you’re one of those guys who was on the sideline for a while? Have you had women all of a sudden become interested in you and your stability? I too would pull the “Thanks, but no thanks card”.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    There´s no such thing as a spoon either, but Im having my cereal with it.

    You should try making the spoon jealous by eating your cereal with an alpha. Tell us how it goes.

  • Sassy6519

    We love Mike, but in all honesty, we have heard Mike’s story many times. Most, if not all, have offered words of support many times. Charm is new. Please don’t extrapolate from this, you’re barking up the wrong tree here.

    Thank you Susan. I was really tempted to write him the same thing, but I just let it go. It’s funny how new commenters come on here and make assumptions about the regular commenters without even doing their homework by reading some of the older posts.

  • VD

    Susan, it might interest you to know Roissy has a new post citing a scientific report that is relevant to the discussion here. It underlines my point that contra the occasional assertion to the contrary, women find high bodycounts attractive.

    “However, only sociosexuality added incremental predictive power over and above physical attributes in the current study. Unexpected was that sociosexuality emerged as a relative powerful predictor of men’s popularity to women, particularly because women largely expressed a long-term mating interest. A possible explanation is that male sociosexuality indicates a history of successful mating experience or mating skills that are attractive to women.”

    In summary, no woman turns down a man she finds attractive due to his bodycount being too high. She might use it as an ex post facto rationale to justify her decision to turn him down, but it’s not going to be the causal factor. My suspicion is that most women work around this by asking the question afterwards; if she’s doing it before, she’s probably looking for an excuse to disqualify someone who she feels is borderline.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      The point I made in this post was that women need to know more about men with high bodycounts. If, as the study here indicated, men with high partner counts find each new woman less attractive after sex, then those men are high risk for long-term mating. I don’t deny that there may still be many takers, but one of the things women need to learn is the risk of marrying a promiscuous man, or even falling in love with one. The study that you’ve cited re female partners via the Social Pathologist also found that partner count is predictive of divorce among males, though the number is far less sensitive. Promiscuity in both sexes has predictive value.

      Re the study, link here:

      http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/per.768/pdf

      First, all studies have limitations, but this one has several that make it less applicable to HUS, in my view:

      1. It’s a German study. In my experience, there is a distinct national character to the German personality. I don’t know if this is true wrt mating, but I’ve read that German porn, including amateur porn, is the most explicit.
      2. The subjects were aged 18-54. The SMP is changing rapidly, and the “boomerang” effect of women judging manwhores harshly is primarily focused in the 18-25 group. Only 2% of males in college have had 25+ partners, so we’re talking about a relatively small number of males that might meet the popular description of “manwhore.”
      3. The authors acknowledge that speed dating studies capture only a brief snapshot of interaction, and that probabilities decreased sharply as the participants moved from the speed dating event to further contact, sexual intercourse, and a possible romantic relationship.

      So what we can say is that women have a strong positive first impression of men who display confidence and assertiveness, which correlates in the study to high sociosexuality scores. That is hardly surprising, and very much in keeping with everything we know about sociosexual dominance and Game. However, women had no access to the actual data re casual sex attitudes or experience, so they wouldn’t have been able to judge bodycounts. That was not explored, and it’s very possible that women may have responded differently over time to men who had a bodycount of 10 vs. 50 or 100.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Keep your head in the sand Jesus, it’ll all be over soon. Alpha is a concept.

    Alpha is a position in the social hierarchy. It’s been turned into a “concept” by misguided people trying to get laid while avoiding being chumped. And I got that Perry was a vehicle, but I think using some teen girl idol as a vehicle for describing what life is like for normal, mature people… is kinda dumb.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    The feminists who are periodically on and on about “sex trafficking” definitely don’t think of prostitution as empowering, nor did the feminists in Sweden and Norway who made prostitution illegal for men to buy, but decriminalized women selling it.

    (Only instance I can think of where the seller of something illegal is not held to the same or higher level of punishment as the buyer of it. ) Weird feminist ideology around prostitutes being “victims” of the patriarchy and false consciousness.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    I think Munson would get that award, tbh. But Doug knows how to derail a thread. He’s very good at it.

  • Ted D

    “Sex positive feminists said that sex work, including stripping, porn and prostitution could be empowering if done the right way and she’s in control.”

    yeah well knowing how much feminism contributed to all the lies I was fed growing up regarding women and relationships, I’m sure you will understand that I see this viewpoint as utter bullshit.

    I’m sure many strippers feel “empowered”, but it is more likely a result of her sexual need to feel “desired” by men and not that the work is in any way noble. I’m beginning to realize that for some women, having men slobber at the thought of her naked is a real turn-on. I can’t see why though. Most men would jump at the chance to bang any normal decent woman if she were naked in front of him and willing. (By that I mean a naked 5 or 6 would have no trouble finding a willing man to have sex with) Having a guy turned on by your body is nothing to be proud of. In fact, it takes very little in the ways of real beauty to give a guy a chubby. Show him some naked boobs or ass, and you generally get a reaction.

    The error here is thinking that somehow having men turned on by you makes you special or empowered. It doesn’t. It just means that men are generally horny and are very easily aroused by visual cues. It doesn’t matter if its your ass or a strippers ass, its still a naked ass.

  • http://oldtimemoviereview.blogspot.com jamie

    Really enjoyed Rollo’s list of double standards. Though I consider the first 7 to be disadvantages for women.

    One thing I can appreciate about 3rd wave feminism is that now men can feel the sting of the double standard while women have revealed themselves to be a bunch of assholes. The world is never going to be perfect, but I’m digging the drama.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    For most of my readers, what’s needed is a primer – the whole concept of EPL, for example, will be new.

    I can’t get as upset as many manosphere bloggers and commenters do at EPL, because there 1) were no kids and 2) there was reportedly no divorce theft. She made more than him apparently. Still it was a ten year marriage and in some ways perhaps some of the best years of his life to her (which is what women left in similar circumstances are always saying). Still he can now search for a younger and more commitment minded model.

  • Charm

    @ Doug1 #104

    I would exclaim “THATS NOT RIGHT”, but I don’t think my one voice would really be significant.

    @Kane

    I like that link you posted. I shook my head as I read all of those double standards. I don’t think I agree with any of them, but I recognize that society as a whole gives women a lot more breaks than men. I feel like that chart should be distributed to women so they know how good they have it. I think if the tables were turned and women were constantly being chastised, and criticized they too would understand where men are coming from.

  • Wudang

    Mike, I have noticed that it is very common for tribes to have rites of passage where the boys spend periods of time only in the company of men being thought how to be men. Or they have periods of instruction by older males while living with the whole tribe or in an all male group and then spend some time totally alone such as during an Australian aboriginal walkabout. I think the reason for this is that women as a group can not teach men to be men. The solipism of both genders necesitates some form of gender exclusive training. THe PUA phenomenon and the manosphere is a way of acomplishing this in the modern world. First the males only taled to each other and thats when they got it right. Now they are including women in the discussion but in a sense do not give them voting power. Because the manosphere/puas have the lowest possible regard for womens ability to understand the dynamics of attraction, the SMP, and what it means to be a man and what is important to a man in life etc. the guys here will listen to women to her if there is sense in what they say but they do not give them ANY authority in the way that men in the west used to do in these matters. The manosphere only considers a female voice once it has earned respect, like many women here, but the voice is still judged only to the extent it makes sense within the existing paradigm. THere are always a ton of guys ready to defend a very coherent male persepctive. No one here defers to womens opinion anymore like they used to and if some do there are so many that don`t and will hold to their views I think the correct view is that PUAs/the manosphere is able to maintain its function as an all male zone/male exlusive rite of passage to become a man while still bringing the women into the discussion. I am pretty sure in tribes that have these all male initiations/trainings there is still a lot of communication with the women in the tribe about how intergender relations are supposed to function and this is important for the society to function well. But because of gender differences and female programming to pull in beta direction it is key that the males seperate themselves to some extent and agree by themselves in a community of only men on what the policy of men are and then just do that regardless of what women think. I think all succesfull societies needs to make something like that work.

    In the west women finally got the ability to define all these things and then everything went shit. It is extremely common amongst traditional tribes all across the world (especially in the Amazon I think) to have legends about there having been a time when the women where in power but they abused it and so now men have teh power and are excluded from learning certain secret things that are thought in all male initiations. That might actually have been true and reflect a transition from a matrilinear/matriarchal structure (those tribes tends to have a lot of similarities with todays SMP and dynamics in the west today) and patriarchy that happened a long time ago in amongst the ancestors of these tribes.

    So in sum it is the responsibility of men to make boys men and to get this done men should deceide between themselves without giving women a “metaphorical vote” on how while still communicating with women about the issues and having care for their needs. Captain and first officer mode in a sense. Men must find the key part for their leadership and direction in themselves and then just command the direction. That is the yin yang dynamic that works in a relationship between a single man and a single woman and I am certain it holds up in society as well. The laws of yin and yang are the same anywhere they are applied.

  • Ted D

    “So in sum it is the responsibility of men to make boys men and to get this done men should deceide between themselves without giving women a “metaphorical vote” on how while still communicating with women about the issues and having care for their needs.”

    And this is a big one. Even if a father is in the home, he isn’t going to teach his son how to be a man if he follows feminist dogma. Woman should have a say in how their sons are taught, but I tend to believe it should be a very SMALL say when it comes to teaching a boy to be a man. Just as men should only have a small say in how their daughters are raised to be women.

    Of course, knowing that much of the female sexual drive is subconscious and rather complicated, maybe women don’t know enough about themselves to do their daughters justice.

  • Charm

    @Sassy

    I think that I misread Mikes comment when he mentioned that he was currently in a relationship for 2.5 years. I guess I assumed he was happy and it was working out. I had no idea it was ending. And you’re right, I am new here, but I’ve been lurking for months now and have read almost all of Susan’s and thousands of comments and no, I don’t know everything everyone here has ever written.

    @Mike

    I apologize for assuming anything about your relationship and in turn forcing your clear it up thus telling everyone about the state of your relationship. It was none of my business.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Charm

    Susan says you’re new, so welcome. I’m an MGTOW (google is your friend) in my early 30s. I’ve put up a few comments around these parts to that effect.

    I’d never take advantage of a man who had his life together. I too plan on having all of those things before 30, so I guess it’s me projecting my idea of responsibly on to other people. I’d prefer to marry an equal rather than being one of those gals who tries to “marry up”.

    Im assuming you’re one of those guys who was on the sideline for a while? Have you had women all of a sudden become interested in you and your stability? I too would pull the “Thanks, but no thanks card”.

    Let’s see if I can give some background that’s still relevant to this double-standard topic. (I don’t like derailing post discussions.)

    I think it was late 2010 when I went on a date. I met the girl friend-cubed style (friend of a friend-of-a-friend) at a small gathering/game night. I pretty much guessed that she was interested; she never gave many indicators. But she agreed to a date, so I tried.

    Since we had common ground (board & card games) we discussed those while waiting on dinner. (Moron me back then, trying to treat a woman nicely.) She asked me if I talked about these with other girls “instead of video games.”

    I off-handedly remarked that I wasn’t dating any other girls at the moment.

    Big mistake. That was a shit-test, and I failed it. (In my defense, I only knew OF game then, and almost nothing about its workings.)

    But I could tell that was the wrong answer. She clammed up. The air between us went cold. After dinner she gave an excuse and left fast.

    Because I didn’t talk about a bunch of other girls I was seeing – while on a date with one! – whatever interest she may have had shattered. She saw me as far too beta. I couldn’t figure it out at the time. It is only in hindsight that I’m aware of the reasons why it happened.

    In answer to your earlier question about women all of a sudden becoming interested in me? Yes, it’s been happening for a couple years now. Women who laughed in my face years ago are popping up on my Facebook, wanting to come see me.

    I am MGTOW partially because I know why this happens now. Partially due to the legal environment men face today (of which I have seen multiple examples firsthand). If a woman comes along & is interested, I might consider dating her. I would need some damn good reasons though. I’m talking will-risk-bankruptcy good.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Chris,

    Maybe you’re misinterpreting what went wrong on the date.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Charm

    Don’t worry Charm. My ire wasn’t directed towards you. It was directed towards Umpagalopas (whatever his name is) for insinuating that the female commenters didn’t care about Mike’s situation because we didn’t offer up apologies this time around. Had he read some of the previous threads, he would know that almost everyone has offered Mike their sympathies, at some point or another, regarding his situation.

  • Chris_in_CA

    I can’t say with 100% certainty of course. She didn’t give any explanation; just a LJBF when I called later on. This seems the most likely explanation to me now, looking back on it.

  • Anna

    @ Ted D
    I have wondered too what is empowering for women about selling sex when they could have gotten laid anyway. Although it takes little for a man to get horny, a prostitute likes to believe she is a better lay because a man is willing to pay so much (she is in reality just available, but whatever you tell yourself..), she is sleeping with a man who is possibly not capable of getting laid otherwise and who will be very thankful and extra turned on. She has also the idea of getting good at what she does, and if she has many customers a day, the admiration and sexual validation keeps coming. This highly depends on the country though, in Scandinavian countries, the prostitutes are mainly foreign women without a residence permit who just needs the money. (@ Doug : hence the law, as the prostitutes in Norway are mainly part of a trafficking system).

    Prostitution is a bigger problem in Norway today than before. A part of that is immigration and women arriving from poorer countries, but the attitudes I blame feminism for.
    The gender roles have become so similar work-wise and family-wise in Norway, that the only differences between the gender left are the sexual ones. Femininity/masculinity has become MORE important after the femininization (I call that a word now) of the country, not less. Many men feel like little men if they’re not having sex, many women feel like little women if they’re not being desired (on a regular basis).

    @ Doug, the law on prostitution in Norway is actually non functioning. There is no prison sentence, only a $1000 fine, which is very little in such a wealthy country. The chief of police claimed the amount of buying/selling sex hasn’t gone down, Norwegian men bring the $1000 in cash when they go out to pick up girls, so that they’ll be able to pay upfront.

  • Doug1

    Jesus Mahoney—

    Alpha is a position in the social hierarchy.

    That’s what it is for zoologists, who study e.g. chimpanzee and gorilla hierarchies, and so on, which is where the term arose. For those animals the social hierarchy and the sexual access one are pretty much the same thing. Things are more complicated than that in modern humans operating in advanced post industrial societies.

    The social hierarchy, e.g. job position within a large corporation, is not the same as the sexual hierarchy, though there are certainly overlaps. Romantic leading Hollywood men are very high in both hierarchies.

    As used in the game world and the manosphere which talks about the current SMP, and as used on this blog by Susan, alphas (including lesser alphas, alphas, and greater or super alphas), are roughly the top 15% of men in sexually attracting women, and who hence have by far the most success in pulling cute and hot 6 and up for quick sex, and what often turns out to be one off or fling casual sex only. Susan says this is bad for girls. Most everyone on here agrees. Alpha like sluts but only for casual sex, not for purposes of falling in love with them, or marrying them.

    What tends to be wrong with alphas says Susan and I don’t disagree, is that it tends to be very hard to get them to commit in relationships, particularly if you’re a 6 or 7 swinging for the fences above your own SMP trying to get a solid alpha 9 to commit. If you’re an 8 or 9 yourself, you’ve got a better shot, at least with alphas in their mid thirties and older. Your solid alphas like FFY tend to not want to settle down in their 20’s, or not for long. Some do though.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Your solid alphas like FFY tend to not want to settle down in their 20’s, or not for long.

      That’s the problem with your definition of alpha right there. A guy goes from an LTR to “fearless cad” and you call that alpha. I call that something else.

      I believe Roissy defines alpha based entirely on how many women he gets for sex. It’s just that one metric.

      Yohami has an entirely different definition.

      Dalrock defines alphas as unsuitable for relationships, IIRC. He certainly advises women not to marry them.

      Researchers generally use the term to refer to men with high testosterone and a general set of personality traits, including strong leadership abilities and poor collaborative abilities. I’ve already linked to the Harvard Business School professors whose entire careers focus on remediating alpha behaviors in the workplace.

      Athol Kay describes alpha only in terms of traits, not individuals.

      I have no firm conviction about what an alpha male is – I’m with Jesus there. I tend to fall in with Dalrock, Athol and HBS though. A little alpha goes a long way, IMO.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Chris,

    Of course, you were there, not me. But that sounds highly unlikely to me. Either that, or extremely uncommon.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Doug,

    So in your view, FFY is a solid alpha?

  • jess

    Sassy:

    “Also, make sure you listen to how he talks about the women he has been involved with. If every single girl he mentions is described as crazy, evil, or bitchy, I would be suspicious. I could understand 1-2 evil bitchy exes, but all of them being described that way is circumspect.”

    Totally- which is why personally I would be more wary of multiple failed LTRs than a string of ONS’s.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Doug,

    Okay, so in your view, an alpha is someone who can get easy sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Okay, so in your view, an alpha is someone who can get easy sex.

      Yes, and you’re not allowed to mention it’s with easy, busted women.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    VD…the paper linked at the Dark Lord post you cited is very interesting. In addition to the strong effect of psychosexuality, I was intrigued to see that “Vocal Attractiveness” (ie, the pleasantness of the person’s voice) ranked pretty high.

    I’m a very auditory person and can remember the voices of people I haven’t seen for years, and whose faces I can barely remember, but was surprised to find that the auditory factor ranks so high among people in general and especially in women’s responses to men.

  • Mike

    @Umslopogaas 129

    I do appreciate the comments. Really do.

    1. Although i don’t come looking for sympathy, it’s appreciated when i hear it. All the women here have been sympathetic to my plight and have said very nearly what you have. Even women i’ve had contentions with on this site have taken what i’ve said at face value and i appreciate that too. I’m trying to move away from that and get into pure healing mode and part of that is forgetting that past.

    2. I have given up on the dysfunctional system as it stands. Hence GMOW. As much as i support Susan’s educational goals, i am currently at odds with her mission statement as i am an ardent advocate of men avoiding marriage until such time when the law reaches a state of rationality and women discard the feminist entitled mentality of me me me and the disposeability of the male.

    3. I have already considered purchasing a ticket to Poland for next year, and begin searching for a compatible mate in her mid 20’s. I have lost time to make up for sexually and want to have a good 3-5 years of pre honeymoon bliss with a woman before i consider having a child. I reject any woman over 30 now, especially if i get the sense that her biological clock is starting to hammer and she’s only looking at me for my seed. Babymama’s gtfo. Survive 5 years with me without flaking and i’ll give you a chance. My best chance to keep my family name alive will be in Europe.

    4. I am soldiering on. I don’t make attaining sex my priority. I’ve been voluntarily celibate throughout my separation and will continue to my divorce. With the final shackles removed morally, ethically and legally i can then dip my foot in the water again, but i will never be ‘desperate’ for it. My incel time taught me how to live without pussy. A fact that no doubt helped me bag strippers in the past when their entitled ass’s just expected me to dish out cash because they looked hot and had vagina’s. They were easy to game at a time when i had no clue what game was or that it existed.

    5. Lastly, since i have no stake in this, and because i find myself out of ‘hookkup culture’ and have lost too many years to this, i simply act as the old codger on the street corner holding the sign ‘The End is Nigh’. I’m perfectly content to sit back and watch Rome burn. It’s not up to me to fix the system. I don’t have a vagina. I only have a tormented past and a brighter future with more disposable income and Modern Warfare 3.

    Cheers!

  • Doug1

    Chris in CA–

    Learn game and get a prenup before marrying and maybe before proposing. The later do work to make marriage less of a financial/bankruptcy type risk, though they can’t lower child support=also stealth alimony. If you want I can link you to a long comment of mine on another thread outlining in detail what sort of prenup I recommend, and how to argue it’s fairness with a potential fiancé.

    This is intended as relevant advice for one guy, not an effort to derail this thread around this subject.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      Comment deleted. If you want to resubmit, take out the pejorative about Italians and Italian food.

  • Charm

    @Chris_in_CA

    I’m new here, but I have been around for quite some time now. Ive read all of Badger, some Dalrock, Obsidean, Roosh, Roissy, etc etc. Dozen of blogs, so Im pretty well informed though some of the acronyms still get me some times. I know MGTOW though. Lol.

    Quite honestly I just find this whole niche in the blogsphere really interesting. Its like I was living in the bubble that has been burst. I like reading all of your stories and comments about your life experiences. I feel like Im staving off a whole lot of heartache by reading it.

    About what you wrote:

    I can’t believe women are like that. Maybe Im so shocked because I don’t hang out with women at all in my age range. Why? Im not like them. Can’t say I saw anything wrong with what you did. I can’t believe you were penalized for it. Being too beta? Women actually judge men for being kind and considerate and not treating them like shit? Thats really hard for me to take.

    Ive read about how the female red pill is women realizing what men really want from them, however, Ive found that swallowing the red pill has actually forced me to see women differently. When I first started reading these game and dating blogs I wanted so badly to exclaim that NAWALT. Then I started noticing that they really really are like that. I find that the more I read the more I side with men like you. Its not right.

    Not really looking for a response, just wanted to hit you back.

    I’ll stop derailing the thread now. Sorry Susan.

  • Doc

    It’s interesting – long ago I used to think that having a large number of sexual partners would count against me (as a man) when it came to women. Actually, if anything its increased my market-value. The various times the topic’s come up, the woman said something like, “I wanted to know why so many women went to bed with you.” I first experienced that effect back in college with sororities – nail one of the hottest girls in a sorority, and the others seemed to line up for a turn.

    Never try to understand the mind of a woman when it comes to her “reasons” – just know how to make it work to your advantage.

    Now, if I were looking for something long-term with a woman the number of her past sexual partners would matter. But as long as it’s all for fun, why would I care as long as she can keep me happy? My rule of thumb for a woman is 2 partners per year on average assuming sexual activity started at 15. (Of course, I also triple whatever number she would actually admit to, in order to get a more accurate number.)

    Is it a double standard? Heck, yes. As a friend of mine once said when one of his ex’s had a one night stand because he was seeing other women when he kicked her to the curb. “I can always wash it off, but you can’t wash it out.” I lost it, I laughed so hard it hurt… (She wasn’t amused – which made it all the funnier from my perspective.) That is the simple difference when it comes to men and women and sexual partners. And it is a fundamental difference.

  • Doug1

    Mike–

    To the effect of : It’s not a woman’s place to teach a man how to be dominant / alpha / whatever.

    He’s quite right.. so im wondering who is responsible. Nature vs. Nurture?

    Both. Feminist messages in the lighter form found in school teachers, the mass entertainment media, and many parents, have done a lot to feminize boys especially middle class on up white boys who wre their principal target, to make them easier for women to deal with in day to day life, and for women to compete against in schools and workplaces, but have also made them less sexually appealing, less alphaish. So guys with lots of testosterone and dominant personalities who are natural leaders and/or rebels are biologically more apt to resist this in significant part than others.

    Just unlearning a lot of feminist messages will help a lot.

    I’d recommend reading Heartiste/Roissy’s archives from the beginning through 2009. Start by going to his site, and doing a google site search on “Dave from Hawaii Relationship Game Week”. Read that and the preceding “Agree and Amplify posts first. Just those two posts will teach you a good bit of game, some things not to do, and an easy to remember and pull off way to handle “shit tests”.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    So, Doug’s view of Alpha is that it describes the guy who gets the most sexual validation from women. And yet, I would argue that many people here, when they use the word Alpha, mean a man that is the source of his own value, and not someone who allows his self-worth to be defined by female attention.

  • Doug1

    Charm—

    I can’t believe women are like that. Maybe Im so shocked because I don’t hang out with women at all in my age range. Why? Im not like them. Can’t say I saw anything wrong with what you did. I can’t believe you were penalized for it. Being too beta? Women actually judge men for being kind and considerate and not treating them like shit? Thats really hard for me to take.

    Most of it is not conscious with most women. They just know when they FEEL sexually attracted and when they don’t. Women are most sexually attracted to men with psychosocialsexual dominance over women to a good degree. There are different styles of exuding that, some nicer than others. Depends on the guy’s strengths, as well as what he can learn.

  • MNL

    Susan, I enjoy your blog and insights immensely, but I have to point out something that is at the least sloppy thinking, and at most an outright contradiction:

    I’m not concerned with moral questions around casual sex. I do not believe that casual sex is immoral. My opposition to casual sex is rooted in the belief that it is a risky strategy for women who wish to ultimately settle with a life partner. …promiscuity limits one’s options by dramatically shrinking the pool of potentially interested partners.

    The contradiction above is longhand for the idea that, “casual sex isn’t wrong; it’s just not strategically effective.” It reflects of the common and mistaken belief that what is morally wrong is automatically unrelated to what is also socially unworkable or ineffective. The slopping thinking is in ignoring the origins of moral emotions in the first place. It occurs in the attempt to divorce what is morally wrong vs. merely practically or instrumentally wrong. I appreciate your interest in not wanting to sound too Victorian or parochial and in maintaining a soft stance, But this soft stance is built on quicksand.

    Early in the post you reference David Buss and The Evolution of Desire. What one learns inside this and his other books (I’m thinking here of Evolutionary Psychology – The New Science of Mind) is that what a society considers morally wrong is quite often an evolved response to what is in fact, less socially efficacious behavior. Moral emotions selectively emerged in society as a tool to regulate behavior which would otherwise undermine that society’s successful reproduction and growth. One can see this clearly in our moral emotions in regards to casual sex. As you said yourself, in the long term, casual sex limits a woman’s pool of interested partners; it likewise makes the manwhore find his partners less attractive. (Your studies cited are just the tip of an iceberg in this field, of which I know you’re well aware). In other words, casual sex tends to work against the human ability to successfully seek out and maintain pair bonds that endure long enough for the effective raising of offspring. That this fact also happens to be encoded into a moral emotion or sanction is a byproduct. It makes no sense to reject the moral encoding of the truth without rejecting the practical truth as well.

    Perhaps by saying, “I don’t believe that casual sex is immoral”, one simply means that those who engage aren’t going to endure seven layers of hell, fire, brimstone, and the pointed jabs from a man with a pitchfork in the Christian afterlife. But that’s a metaphysical argument and an entirely different topic.

    Let’s simply not hold the mistaken belief that what a society often considers “moral” or “immoral” is unrelated to what has proved strategic to that society’s development. Moral emotions such as sanctions against casual sex, like other “kin selection” strategies, likely emerged through rigorous evolutionary pressure. They are strategically optimal as far as we can tell. Therefore, one can’t say that casual sex limits one’s strategic reproductive options yet isn’t morally wrong–and escape not only a contradiction but also a proper understanding of the role and purpose of moral emotion.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @MNL

      Thank you for your thoughtful comment.

      what a society considers morally wrong is quite often an evolved response to what is in fact, less socially efficacious behavior. Moral emotions selectively emerged in society as a tool to regulate behavior which would otherwise undermine that society’s successful reproduction and growth.

      True. I would point out, though, that the sexual double standard arose in order to protect men from cuckoldry. A woman’s sexual past was considered a good indicator of her likelihood to remain sexually faithful and loyal (Buss cites this as the most important of 67 different traits to American men). Today, with the Pill, abortion, and DNA testing for paternity, the risk for cuckoldry still exists but is much diminished. Promiscuity is still a good predictor of sexual loyalty, at least according to one study. Still, perhaps our justification for considering casual sex as immoral has weakened.

      It’s also true that many societies have traditionally arranged for young men to lose their virginity with a prostitute or other non-relationship partner. Clearly, societies must feel that this is a necessary rite of passage for males. We should also consider what happens among men when involuntary celibacy is imposed on the majority.

      In other words, casual sex tends to work against the human ability to successfully seek out and maintain pair bonds that endure long enough for the effective raising of offspring.

      Well, I am on record many times as saying that promiscuity is responsible for many societal ills, and I believe that. I’m not saying that casual sex is not damaging to society. But to play devil’s advocate for a moment, we have a situation where 80% of guys are not having (much) casual sex, which lands them in a Catch 22. As virgins they can’t attract a female (who evolved to appreciate preselection by other females), but neither can they make any headway unless they can lose their virginity and learn how to interact with women. If those men were able to attract mates earlier and marry, the birthrate would climb.

      IOW, my view is a pragmatic one. Clamping down on premarital sex isn’t going to work. Dalrock may define female promiscuity as N > 1, but that’s just academic. That simply enables us to declare that most women are promiscuous.

      My motivation is in getting people together. And if that means congratulating a male on having a sexual experience, I’m willing to do that in the service of a greater goal. Researcher Kathleen Bogle has said that although hookups turn into relationships only 12% of the time, they are the only pathway to relationships in college. (Hooking up is defined as anything from kissing to intercourse – before emotional intimacy.) I’ve read that the only college that has minimal hooking up is BYU. If we admonish young people never to hook up, they’re not going to form relationships. Ultimately, that is what we’re trying to avoid.

  • http://umslopogaas.wordpress.com Umslopogaas

    @Susan Walsh:

    We love Mike, but in all honesty, we have heard Mike’s story many times. Most, if not all, have offered words of support many times. Charm is new. Please don’t extrapolate from this, you’re barking up the wrong tree here.”

    Well I certainly haven’t heard his story before. And his most recent post (the one I responded to) referred to him having to divorce his wife (in 2 weeks) because she seems to be unhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapy.

    Have you heard this story many times before already as well?

    I’ve deleted your comment, as I routinely delete all comments of the “America is a dunghole” variety“.

    LoL. Aight, your blog your call, “fair” enough.

    I’ll just have to voice my opinions in the proper ‘Sprech’, zhen:

    Mike,
    it’s all in your head. American women are *wunderbaaaar, jawohl*. Rainbows eternally shine out of their ar*es and unicorns become misty eyed, fall in love at first sight and write shmaltzy poems when these robust, empowered and superbly outstandingly megamassive super-duper wimminz waltz by.

    There are no sluts. There are no princesses. There are no gouty, dumpy hausfraus. There are no flabby landwhales floundering around. There are no shrill and screwy shrews. There are no nagging, saggy hags. It’s all just an ilusion, made up by the Devil and MTV.

    What happened to you did not really happen. Because it could not happen in the US. Because, you know, NAWALT. Actually, NASAWILT (N.ot A. S.ingle A.merican W.oman I.s L.ike T.hat). They could not do these terrible, terrible things because they are made of sugar and spice and all things nice.

    And looking for a woman outside of the US is a crime! How could you do that? Why would you want to walk away from such wonderful, emphatic, beautiful, flagrant, radiant, perfectly perfect, not ever too fat nor too thin just optimal wimminz?

    You better start loving these wimminz or else…or else you’re a misogynist! So there! You so *aaare*! If you don’t man up and marry and fork over your spandooly and get divorce-raped and man up and marry and give them your wonga and get cuckold-divorce-raped and man up yet again and marry another wonder woman etc…you obviously do not want to commit, you man child.

    We from the ‘Department of Equality’ need to change that. We’ll just just have to put you in a Liberation Camp with ‘Hildegard’ for a few sessions of “empowerment”.

    Love is hate.
    War is peace.
    Freedom is slavery.

    & all power to the hamsters.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Umslo

      I don’t know what happened. When you first came here you seemed quite reasonable and serious.

      I’m not sure why MRAs think HUS is a good place to rag on American women. I mean, seriously. You’re talking to American women here. Your advice to expatriate would be more relevant on an MRA blog, no? You’re going to find very few potential expats here.

  • Charm

    @ Jesus Mahoney #182

    ” And yet, I would argue that many people here, when they use the word Alpha, mean a man that is the source of his own value, and not someone who allows his self-worth to be defined by female attention.”

    I could not agree more. Nothing is more Alpha than a man who knows who he is regardless of what other people think of him. I read on another blog (cant remember where) about Alphas among women and Alphas among men. The former is the one who gets validation from women the latter from being respected by men. Though, I think the Alpha among men has a strong sense of self which is why he is respected among men. That is the type of man that I like, not the one who beds a bunch of women.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @david foster, I can’t speak for other people, but a good voice is incredibly attractive to me. I think it is THE thing that first attracted me to my husband. I didn’t know what he looked like; he just had a “sexy” voice. It wasn’t particularly deep. It was just mesmerizing to me.

    I think it might be that a person’s voice conveys a lot about personality and demeanor. My husband was also attracted to my voice right away, and he said I sounded cute, sweet, shy and nice. Although, I very much dislike my own voice.

    If you’ve ever read Dune, the Bene Gesserit have a concept called “the Voice,” using their vocal talents to persuade and compel others to follow commands. It’s quite interesting. I feel there is definitely something energetically deeper going on about voices and tones.

  • Doug1

    Jesus—

    So, Doug’s view of Alpha is that it describes the guy who gets the most sexual validation from women. And yet, I would argue that many people here, when they use the word Alpha, mean a man that is the source of his own value, and not someone who allows his self-worth to be defined by female attention.

    There’s certainly more to being a high value man than being very sexually attractive to women, and certainly more to my and most other men’s sense of self worth than that. From women’s points of view there’s more to attractive mate selection than the degree of alphaness of the guy as well, esp. when choosing a LTR or marriage partner. There’s his loyalty, his desire to have a long term relationship with her, his ability to fall in love with her, their compatibility and life goals, and his achievements.

    There’s also more to selecting an excellent LTR or marriage female mate than choosing the prettiest or even prettiest and most oozing of sexuality a youngish girl one can attract. See the above factors for women beyond degree of alphaness.

  • tvmunson

    at #178

    mant to say when a guy gets “bingal”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Doug,

    That’s cool. I understand now what you mean when you say alpha. I think your views are silly, but at least now I understand them.

  • Doug1

    Jesus–

    Okay, so in your view, an alpha is someone who can get easy sex.

    From cute and hot girls, yes. Not from chubby 3’s. Some greater betas can get it from some 6’s, so Roissy and others in the Roissysphere + Roosh often expanded the percentage to 20% which includes some of them, from the 15% who are said to be some sort of alpha, mostly lesser alphas.

    Note can is not the same thing as saying only guys who are obsessed with ranking up large numbers of partners (usually among the 6’s and 7’s) are alphas.

    Another way of gauging alpha and greater beta sex ranks is by asking or observing what’s the SMV rank of the three hottest girls he’s ever managed to bang or keep in a relationship? Limiting it to just one will let in too many flukes I think. So if the hottest three average 8, he’s probably a lesser alpha rather than a solid alpha.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Doug,

    That all sounds absurd to me.

  • Charm

    @Doug1 #185

    Thats probably what it is. Most women are feeling oriented and Im thinking oriented. I scored ENTJ on MBTI. From my perspective the problems seems to be the way most women fall in love:

    Body-they are sexually aroused by a man’s dominance so they want to sleep with them.
    Heart-Since most women bond through sex, they start to develop feeling for the man.
    Head-This where they start to evaluate his fitness as a long-term mate. (character/personality/job/stability etc).

    I think that when it finally gets to most womens head’s and they start to think about the man they have already had sex with, and developed feelings for, they have to rationalize (isnt this where the hamster comes in?) why they should be with him even though he isn’t worth a damn. Probably why bad boys get so much play. Women aren’t actively using their damn heads, though you’ve all already figured that much out.

    I on the other hand fall in love I guess backwards compared to most women. People automatically get friend zoned with me until I can assess them.
    Head-whether or not I can have an intellectual conversation with you, if you have a strong character or not, do our personalities click.
    Heart-only after you’ve passed the first step will feelings start to develop and Ill start to consider you for mating
    Body-After my head and heart are in is when my body will follow and Ill become sexually attracted to you.

    This is probably I don’t get this whole alpha this, beta that and why I don’t find the Alpha men discussed in blogs like this attractive. Crap, now that I think about it im gonna be single forever.

  • lovelost

    @Susan #194
    I’ve already linked to the Harvard Business School professors whose entire careers focus on remediating alpha behaviors in the workplace.

    Could you please provide the link one more time? Thanks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lovelost

      Here’s an article from Harvard Business Review:

      http://www.prudencia.com/pdf/coaching_the_alpha_male.pdf

      They describe alpha males as prone to anger and bullying, and they also describe women with these traits as alpha females.

  • http://umslopogaas.wordpress.com Umslopogaas

    @Mike:

    Seeing as my indepth response to your comments was carpetbombed out of existance by the supreme overlordess of HUS might I just use your owncomments and cite and integrate them into an article on my blog?

    Cause I’ve been pondering this very subject and have strong feelings about it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Seeing as my indepth response to your comments was carpetbombed out of existance by the supreme overlordess of HUS might I just use your owncomments and cite and integrate them into an article on my blog?

      Hey, that’s a great idea! If Mike agrees, perhaps you two could take the convo over there. It’s totally off topic for this post.

  • jess

    Ted re numbers,

    Hi, yes a lot of guys here have said the same thing in that ‘numbers’ are high up the ‘list’ and that hypocrisy is rife on the issue ( as depicted in the cartoon).

    The bottom line is, if thats what all the guys you know say, then a women in your ‘circle’ has to deal with that reality- however ‘unethical’ or ‘irrational’ it may be.

    Her choices are to find a different circle, keep her numbers low or simply take a reduced partner pool if she allows he numbers to creep up.

    I have often reported on contrasting male attitudes (and got a pile of abuse here for doing so). But the fact remains that my experience is very different to yours. Im not talking about telly or SATC or the very sex positive media that is prevalent today (actually I think the media is far too sexualised) and I accept that in the UK and Ireland there are some guys who have ‘number’ at the forefront of their thinking towards women.

    But I have experienced 3 countries in a fair bit of depth in in particular their SMPs (not a term I like!)- and I have generally felt many (most) guys just aren’t that hung up on numbers.

    When I explicitly asked my work colleague and some other friends /acquaintances last year they mostly confirmed my impressions.

    I met several guys who had married girls that had more experience than them and seemed very happy- they just didn’t see the problems that some others do.

    As to shifting ‘scenes’ I read an article recently about Ireland and the (remote) possibility of Martin McGuiness getting elected and the history of religion and politics there in the last 30 years and how there has been a PROFOUND change in attitudes. I was quite shocked actually as I realised some of my own memories and impressions are now perhaps out of date. And its not just Dublin that has these modern attitudes and non religious mores- its a general mind set of people below the age of 30.

    The pill and the media have fundamentally changed society. There have been positives and negatives to this but I cannot imagine the pendulum going too far the other way. I do like the wave of good youth orientated information shows like ‘SEx Experience’ on channel4 which are explicit, but well presented and DO hammer home the realties of STDs and the acceptability of virginity and gay/lesbian/bisesual/trangender people. Its progressive, educational and very responsible and more and more shows are coming out like that.

    In time I hope this proves an antidote to excessive sexual titillation and pornography. But the ‘change’ in attitude is there for any nation that allows TV sets or internet cables.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Jess has arrived to defend promiscuity. Can Tom be far behind? Someone has offered a bet: 30 comments combined between those two over the next three days. Any takers?

  • Doug1

    Jesus—

    That’s cool. I understand now what you mean when you say alpha. I think your views are silly, but at least now I understand them.

    Fair enough. As for being silly, it’s how just about everyone in the game world and most of the manosphere uses alpha and beta. It’s mostly how Susan uses it too, though she likes to emphasize the typical good beta qualities, which is fair enough.

    A complicating factor is that there are many so called beta qualities which are attractive to women, esp. for LTR’s, when present with some mix of alpha qualities (great betas have some alpha qualities). Athol Kay talks about this a lot, and so does Susan.

    I tried to float having two parallel scales, on 1-10 on the gina tingles, raw male sexual attractiveness alpha/cad scale. The other 1-10 on the mate/dad scale. Many of the good “beta” qualities would be on this scale. For example, loyalty, fidelity, comfort providing, reliability, responsibility, and so on. Never caught on. Think it’s a more helpful way of thinking about it. Yeah alphas tend to be cads, because they can, but they don’t have to be. Not all betas on the gina scale are actually so good at providing warm comfort, being reliable and responsible, etc. – though they more tend to be, because those can be beta selling points.

  • tvmunson

    Amendatory to previous re ; anus/bingus/”asshole”:

    Another reason we need an intermediate term for anal sex, not just penetration but all forms, is that when gals discuss it they should not adopt the vituperative form in explication. If you say ” he played with my ass”, it isn’t clear if he crossed the 50 yard line or actually got into the “red zone” (no no-that’s close enough). We need a word and words that are not clinical, but not vulgar, without losing clarity..

    EXAMPLE: Girl (to her friend): “So what did you, uhm, Do? Did you ..”
    Friend: “No, we fooled around; he played with my asshole.”

    Now, what do girls call men they’re mad at? “Asshole”. Using that same term as in my example conflates anger with romance in a way that is not healthy for a woman. “He played with my bingus” achieves the proper balance, somewhere between crudity and arid clinical detachment.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Doug,

    I’m pretty sure that’s not how Sue defines Alpha. If it is, then I think she’s being silly.

  • Doug1

    Jess—

    and that hypocrisy is rife on the issue ( as depicted in the cartoon).

    Having a double standard on the slut versus stud issue is not necessarily hypocritical. The cartoon did not depict hypocrisy. It depicted lack of sameness between men and women on this issue, or many feminists would say lack of equality, freely admitted by the dad, which was what was funny. It would only be hypocrisy if he pretended to have the same standard for his son, but didn’t in practice.

  • tvmunson

    #199 I was kidding but get it. It will take a while to re-type.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I once hopped on a subway car on a Saturday night. It was a relatively empty car, which is why I went for that one. There was a homeless man fiddling himself in full view of the few remaining passengers. Munson’s posts remind me a lot of him.

  • Doug1

    Jesus–

    I’m pretty sure that’s not how Sue defines Alpha. If it is, then I think she’s being silly.

    I think it is how she uses it, although she likes to strongly associate alphas with usually being players. Some are some aren’t. Just about all players are some kind of alpha though because they have to be to be able to pull it off with cute and hot girls, or occasionally a few greater betas mostly with 6’s.

  • jess

    munson,

    i assume by knuckle you mean a gentlemen’s undercarriage or portal for veinous choad (TM)

    I actually used to think girls (and certainly not myself) did not do that. But I have since seen research and a hilarious TV documentary that confirms exactly that. I dont know if we find it ‘hot’ like guys do with the camel toe but it would appear we have a good old look all the same.

    This doesnt particularly suprise me- the more I read up on anthropological work, the more I’m struck by gender similarities. However there are comfort reasons I would have thought that allow women to wear tighter trousers than gentlemen so there may well be a factor there as well of course.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Charm

    Thats probably what it is. Most women are feeling oriented and Im thinking oriented. I scored ENTJ on MBTI.

    I think that’s a valid point. I am an ENTP, so you and I are fairly similar. I tend to make my decisions based on thoughts rather than emotion, so I fall in love similarly to the way you described it. I think I’m too rational for my own good sometimes. I approach many situations the way a man would. I think it will serve me well in relationships, in the long run.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hm. If you call players and PUAs alpha, then I’m cool with it. It just sounds like a bunch of silly, self-congratulatory bullshit though.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It just sounds like a bunch of silly, self-congratulatory bullshit though.

      Notice how all the positive alpha descriptions are from men who offer themselves up as Exhibit A, lol.

  • jess

    doug at 203,

    well ok, granted- i guess then if the brother maintained the distinction between himself and a future girlfriend THAT would be him being hypocritical.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Charm, INFJ here. I fall in love like you do: mind first, then heart, and finally body. I never made out with a guy without him loving me for my mind and heart first. I’ve also only been with nerdy guys who are smart and impress me in the intellectual realm.

    @Sassy, I don’t think the common thread is the T. I think it’s the N. We N’s are about 25% of the population, but we talk a lot more online. Sensing people make up the majority, and they operate differently.

  • Wudang

    One part of the voice attraction is that deeper voices reveal high testosterone which imply alpha + other beneficial good genes. But I think it also reveals the personality in all sorts of ways in the same way bodylanguage does. Insecurities are heard, being a loving person is heard. We don`t necessarily understand what it is we are hearing at all it is just that the sounds make us attracted because the sounds reflect something. Some people are much better than others at reading what it is exactly that a voice reveals just like with bodylanguage.

    Sometimes when I am feeling especially comfortable and confident and am being more charming than normal I tend to get more in contact with my voice and find I can control it quite a lot and make it more appealing. When I do I can se instant positive changes in how women respond.

  • Charm

    @Sassy

    ” I think I’m too rational for my own good sometimes.”

    I’d say no, but if you think about it, its really true. Men lament about dating women who are feeling oriented and emotional, social gossips, irrational and horrible decision makers, but they naturally associate all of these things with being female and often feminine. NT girls really do think like men and in the long run of a relationship it probably is more beneficial but how many times have you been passed over for a cute little SFP or SFJ? Hell, NFs probably have it easier than rational girls because at least they are emotional.

    I think Im low maintenance but often men just call me unfeminine. Oh the pain of the double edged sword.

  • Doug1

    Jess—

    But I have experienced 3 countries in a fair bit of depth in in particular their SMPs (not a term I like!)- and I have generally felt many (most) guys just aren’t that hung up on numbers.

    Alpha’s tend to care less about numbers than betas do. Alphas definitely don’t go around slut shaming out in the real dating world. It’s bad for business to do that. Also sends the wrong vibe even aside from getting sluts to put out. It sends the wrong vibe even to good girls most of the time.

    However very few men would want to marry a Samantha, particularly if they’ve taken the red pill about American or British levels of divorce and the usual outcomes for men who earn a lot more than their wives. Carrie Bradshaw levels wouldn’t bother some thirty something alphas, though her age would.

    Most still do care though when considering marriage. More leftist guys more immersed in feminism tend to care less (I think by usually kidding themselves) than most more conservative guys, who reject anti slut shaming sex positive feminist messages.

  • Chris_in_CA

    No bet, Susan. Not unless you up the number to 45.

    @Doug – I appreciate it, but no worries. My name will never appear on a marriage certificate. Or a birth certificate other than my own.

    @Charm – I respect a woman who wants to use her brain. But auto-friendzoning guys will turn off physical cues you give a man. Wanting him to approach, indicate he should keep talking, touching him, etc. Without those, even a lot of betas will assume you’re not interested and walk away. If you WANT to end up single all your life…well.

  • Charm

    @Hope

    Yes, NFs and NT have a lot in common. Ns do make up about 25 percent of the population. Where I get screwed is that most men are T while most women are F, so thinking women make up 25% of the female population while I believe intuitive thinking women make up about 5%? I know ENTJ women are about 1.3% of the over all population of the US.

  • Doug1

    Roissy–

    I believe Roissy defines alpha based entirely on how many women he gets for sex. It’s just that one metric.

    He created that impression on the first post where he defined alpha males and the SMV scale in general (he also used length of dry spells between relationships versus being able to have soft harems), but then in other posts amended that to “could get if he wanted to”. He’s also added my second way of determining — by the hottest three women a guy has ever pulled for casual or relationship sex.

  • JQ

    @Susan

    I shall come out of the land of the lurk to make a few comments in re one of the studies cited in your post via the links [1, pay-walled] (I don’t have institutional access to the other one), I would like to make two notes. (References are numbered and at the bottom.)

    1) There is no baseline risk over time curve reported so it is impossible to make a judgment about whether or not premarital sex with someone other than a woman’s first husband makes a “meaningful difference”. If the baseline risk is small enough, for some demographics even a doubling of the risk is still less than the overall average or an average which has been re-sampled to more accurately reflect overall demographics based on national average Census data. What is considered “normal” or “baseline” matters.

    2) Also, it was reported that there is a 8% reduction in the risk of divorce for each year a woman delays age of first sex. Doing a little, this implies a woman who waits until her early twenties has just about canceled out her additional divorce risk [0.5 from waiting (x) 2 from having premarital sex] due to having multiple sex partners and this adjustment is reported as statistically significant [1, Table 2]. I’m sure people will comment at length about “maturity effects”, which I agree are certainly present and a priori meaningful. However in regards to partner count . . .

    (2a) Before people jump up and down about how women who wait have fewer lifetime partners, yes, it’s supported by the data presented in [1] and elsewhere (HUS, for instance). However, the study doesn’t break out the number of sex partners and, as [2] notes, it stands to reason that there is a diminishing effect of additional partners, namely that the first does most of the damage and beyond a certain point more are statistically irrelevant. On the other hand, it does appear from this study that the only premarital sex that doesn’t matter statistically is sex with the future ex-husband [1, Table 4].

    [1] Teachman, J. “Premarital Sex, Premarital Cohabitation, and the Risk of Subsequent Marital Dissolution Among Women”, Journal of Marriage and Family 65 (May 2003): 444–455

    [2] http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2010/09/sexual-partner-divorce-risk.html?showComment=1284787761300#c3150757481704552417

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JQ

      All fair and relevant points. I’m a little wary of the Teachman study for two reasons. One, IIRC Teachman has an ideology, so I’m not 100% confident re bias. Two, it’s the only study of its kind and has never been replicated anywhere else. I spent an entire afternoon once scouring the web for anything even remotely similar. This may reflect a deliberate suppression of information, I don’t know. Or it may be that it’s a true outlier.

      These studies usually have some value, but it’s limited. I acknowledge that.

  • Mike

    Umslopogaas January 6, 2012 at 5:05 pm 197

    You have my permission to use anything i write in the public square.

  • Sassy6519

    I’d say no, but if you think about it, its really true. Men lament about dating women who are feeling oriented and emotional, social gossips, irrational and horrible decision makers, but they naturally associate all of these things with being female and often feminine. NT girls really do think like men and in the long run of a relationship it probably is more beneficial but how many times have you been passed over for a cute little SFP or SFJ? Hell, NFs probably have it easier than rational girls because at least they are emotional.

    I don’t think I’ve ever really been passed over by a guy. If I did, it was probably during the age of 16 and under. Guys think I’m very feminine when they first meet me. I dress and conduct myself like a lady. When I open my mouth and start talking about video games or philosophy, they have often reacted in an extremely positive way. They like the fact that I look good on their arm, but that I can also shoot the shit about random things.

    For example, I was talking to this guy at work this past week about Skyrim (a video game for those not in the know). I looked at him and shouted at one point “Fus Ro Dah!!”. He burst out laughing and said, “Please marry me” in a half-joking tone.

    It’s all about striking a balance. Be pretty and feminine, but relate to guys on their level. If you can successfully do both, you’re pretty much golden.

  • http://www.andthatswhyyouresingle.com ATWYSBlog (@ATWYSBlog)

    Here’s an excerpt from a post I wrote on the topic:

    Hi Susan,

    I think all the cues you gave to spot a player are good ones. The only quibble I have is that many of them require that the woman engage the man for a prolonged amount of time. By the point that she meets his friend or family, or gets a baseline on how he displays affection or interacts with his family, she’s already hooked.

    I also think that the skilled player knows how to present himself and will avoid doing all of these things. They know exactly what to say and do to get what they want. So there’s really no way for a woman to totally avoid these men.

    The only thing women can do is learn from experience and accept that they *are* going to be played at some point. We all have been. It’s part of dating. Fearing that seems to keep so many women stuck, which prevents them from gaining experience and learning how to spot these guys from the get go.

    The only true way to learn how to spot a player is to date one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ATWYS

      Yes, it’s true. I strongly recommend that women delay sex until they’re confident they’re not being played. Most players won’t stick around long enough to wait it out. And of course, it’s a good reason to delay sex until commitment, though increasingly men just are not willing to do that. As Amber Madison explains in Are All Men Assholes?, men have figured out that chicks dig jerks, so in addition to trying to spot cads pretending to be good guys, women have to worry about missing out on good guys pretending to be jerks, or as Madison calls them, “Impostor Assholes.”

  • Wudang

    I think evolution has primed women to go for alphas in spite of their own long term happiness to a large degree. So although I disagree that there is much avoidance of alphas with very large numbers by any but some of those with the lowest numbers and those that aren`t attractive enough to get them anyway, I agree that it is a good idea to avoid men with a very, very high number. I think that will only happen through science very clearly showing exactly what you are getting into if you get with an alpha with 300 notches. But I think the effect on women will always lag behind the rational reasons to avoid them and certainly lag behind what women say before they have met the alpha they otherwise would have gotten with but now is supposed to try to turn down because of his number. A good female friend of mine who was also the best friend of one of my best mates turned down a guy because he had slept with 50 women. Well her ex had at the time of their relationship slept with over 40 women and she never had a problem with that and had they fixed their other issues she wouldn`t today have a problem with hsi 70-80 or so lays at all. It doesn`t even enter her mind. She turned down the 50 lays guy because she wasen`t attracted to him much. They were on a first date and he haden`t attracted her much yet at all. Then there was another female friend of mine who had fallen for another good friend of mine with a number waaaaay over a hundred. When she found out what his number was and that he had bedded a new women every day for days on end a couple of times her reaction was “oh nooo, oh no, oh no” and then just proceeding with dating him as if nothing had changed. Exactly the same reaction the girlfriend of one of my other mates had when she found out his number was over a hundred and he had and a bunch of threesomes and moresomes. Lots of worry but in the end no change. The more studies give good reasons for rejecting the better able they will be to actually manage to pass on these guys but it will never be to the degree that is rational.

  • Charm

    @Chris_in_CA

    Yes, this is part of my problem. Though I will say that I am a good conversationalist and very charming so that works in my favor. I ask a lot of questions and am actually interested in the responses so Im often accused of flirting when Im just being myself. I can however read body language really well and let me tell you men are not good at hiding it when they find you attractive. Something in their face changes. Also in their voice.I do notice the change in body language so if I like them back I will signal it to them.

    Maybe friend zoned isnt what I meant. I mean initially upon setting eyes on the person I wont become attracted to them. Even if they are physically attractive my brain doesnt notice until I talk to them and see they have a brain and strong character. Only then will a fire start to burn.

  • Doug1

    Ted—

    I’m sure many strippers feel “empowered”, but it is more likely a result of her sexual need to feel “desired” by men and not that the work is in any way noble.

    It’s not about being noble, it’s about getting a sexual charge out of it, as well as a lot of money. After my divorce my first girlfriend who moved in with me was a tall leggy blonde stripper from Texas. She got a real charge out of stripping. Lots of hot girls have exhibitionist streaks in them. Also high end strip clubs are quite controlled environments. Girls also don’t have to do lap dances for guys they don’t want to. The main thing wrong with stripping is that many girls look down on it, and many guys wouldn’t want to marry an ex stripper.

    Then I encouraged her to go to law school, helped her write her application essays, she got in to a pretty good one, and off she went. Don’t know if she stripped while in law school. Wouldn’t surprise me.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “no woman turns down a man she finds attractive due to his bodycount being too high. She might use it as an ex post facto rationale to justify her decision to turn him down, but it’s not going to be the causal factor. My suspicion is that most women work around this by asking the question afterwards; if she’s doing it before, she’s probably looking for an excuse to disqualify someone who she feels is borderline.”

    I would agree. Something I’ve noticed, here at HUS as well as elsewhere, is how a female ‘group mind’ seems to take over & amplify emotions whenever this subject comes up. Whereas most women’s dealings with men as individuals, away from the sisterhood & out in the world, don’t seem to bear out this belief that they are unattracted to men successful with women at all.

    Do women notice the rationalization hamster at work in themselves once they’re away from the heat of the moment?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron

      You can credit me with raising the issue of manwhores here. It’s hardly something I made up. It’s prevalent in the media and a word that frequently comes up among women. I’m not saying that a man with a high count can’t get women. I’m saying that there are an increasing number of women who disqualify them. I’ve seen this firsthand, including the rejection of some very handsome guys by women who feel repelled by his “trash dick” (another popular phrase) and distrustful of his ability to be monogamous. As I’ve said before, I would imagine that climbing STD rates has something to do with this – high number men are very likely to be carrying viral STDs, which can send a woman’s SMV plummeting and make her infertile as well.

      I’m not trying to sell the concept, I’m merely making an observation. YMMV of course.

      In any case, women should care about a man’s bodycount, that much is clear. That is, if she’s not interested in enabling “sexual variety” for her partner. If she’s down for non-monogamy, it’s not even relevant.

      A lot of what I do at HUS is try to migrate the female thinking process from the hindbrain to the cerebral frontal cortex. And the CFC says steer clear of mansluts. A woman’s attitude toward this will be dependent on which brain does most of her thinking.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    I once hopped on a subway car on a Saturday night. It was a relatively empty car, which is why I went for that one. There was a homeless man fiddling himself in full view of the few remaining passengers. Munson’s posts remind me a lot of him.

    Mahoney, that made me laugh so much I almost wept.

  • Mike

    @Susan 216
    > Hey, that’s a great idea! If Mike agrees, perhaps you two could take the convo over there. It’s totally off topic for this post.

    Ill concede he did come in and we went off topic. Won’t bring it back up in this thread. But my comments prior were all tied directly into the parent post discussion at hand.

  • Wudang

    MNL, you would enjoy reading Steven Pinkers book on why violence have declined.

    I would argue by the way that promiscuity and matrilinear societies (they are often though not always connected) probably are adaptive in certain very specific context. Both societally and in terms of genetic evolution. I am against both in western civilization and most other contexts but I do think exactly the types of arguments found in the books you reference can be used to argue the validity of promiscuity in certain forms in certain societies as adaptive.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    4 mike:

    You know you hit rock bottom when your ‘friends’ start sending you links like this in your email. That was about the time i nearly locked myself in the garage and ran the engine.

    I can sympathize with you there. Heck, it probably wouldn’t be so bad for some guys to be “marginalized” (or whatever term you want to use) if they weren’t constantly reminded and taunted about their lack.

    Or to use a metaphor. It’s one thing to go without food for long periods of time (many people do it for various reasons, sometimes willfully for religious purposes). Well it’s a lot easier on the stomach to sit in an empty room and not eat than to have someone constantly waving a perfectly cooked, juicy steak (or whatever your favorite food is) 2 inches from your face. Or to quote someone much wiser than I:

    The onus here is placed on the man, entirely and absolutely: and yet the
    abolition of the rituals of courtship, and the laws and customs of chastity,
    make it so that no man has any reason to learn self-discipline in his life,
    particularly in his sexual life. The man is expected to be aroused with the
    half-naked or all-naked young nymph in his arms, and then when she says, “no, I’ve changed my mind” he is supposed to turn off his erection, take a cold shower, smile and tip his hat and walk out of the room? Certainly men who had been raised from youth to abide by the strictest possible discipline of self control, who could sit while starving next to a loaf and not touch a crumb if it were not offered him, yes, such men could be expected to perform what was asked them. To expect such chastity and self-control in men who have been raised in a society where self control and chastity are mocked and despised is unrealistic.

    I really need to sit down and figure out just where men are supposed to discover their ‘alphaness’ lies. It obviously isn’t Nature, else all men would alpha up like puberty or something.

    I know it’s a heavily Christian religion book… but if that’s ok or bearable for you, I highly recommend Wild at Heart.

  • Doug1

    Anna–

    @ Doug, the law on prostitution in Norway is actually non functioning. There is no prison sentence, only a $1000 fine, which is very little in such a wealthy country. The chief of police claimed the amount of buying/selling sex hasn’t gone down, Norwegian men bring the $1000 in cash when they go out to pick up girls, so that they’ll be able to pay upfront.

    I think that prostitution should be decriminalized everywhere. What shouldn’t be decriminalized is true trafficking, or any forcing or tricking women into prostitution against their wills. For what I’ve been able to tell reading Maggie McNeill and some other’s she’s linked to, the amount of true trafficking is vastly less common than claimed. What is fairly common is for men to get false documents and by other means smuggle illegal immigrant foreign women into rich countries like Norway and England, who they owe them sizeable fees for helping them do this. I think the percentage of those who are truly tricked is much lower than claimed, and that both advocates for foreign prostitutes and they themselves like to exaggerate this when found out, as a way of getting public sympathy, avoiding as much shame, and hoping to help them remain in the country as asylum seekers. Lura Agustin, a British anthropologist, has made studying sex trafficking her principal line of study.

    http://www.lauraagustin.com/sex-on-sunday-happy-new-year-call-girls?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nodo50%2FGpNc+%28The+Naked+Anthropologist+on+Migration%2C+Trafficking+and+Sex%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      Sex trafficking is OT.

  • jess

    Susan re 30 posts…..

    5 dollars says 34

  • Doug1

    Jesus—

    So in your view, FFY is a solid alpha?

    Yes. He pulls 8’s all the time, and a number of 9’s. He had four girls 8’s-9’s concurrently in a soft harem all summer long. He usually doesn’t go after 7’s and hasn’t gone after 6’s in some time.

    I’d say he pulled himself up from lesser alpha to solid alpha midway through college by ready Roissy mostly, and largely by stopping doing too much nice guy, pedestalling and so on, and experimenting quite quickly on what works best for him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yes. He pulls 8’s all the time, and a number of 9’s. He had four girls 8’s-9’s concurrently in a soft harem all summer long. He usually doesn’t go after 7’s and hasn’t gone after 6’s in some time.

      The guy who boasted of banging a so-so girl at the top of a slide in a playground for 70 frickin’ minutes while her bf sat at home. The guy is a bottom feeder.

  • Doug1

    Jess—

    well ok, granted- i guess then if the brother maintained the distinction between himself and a future girlfriend THAT would be him being hypocritical.

    No I don’t think that would be hypocrisy either. Hypocrisy is preaching or claiming one thing generally of a moral or normative behavior nature, and doing something at odds with that. The brother feeling that he can sleep with a bunch of women, but that neither his sister nor a girl he’d want to marry should is applying different, and many feminists claim unequal and “unfair” standard towards women, but it isn’t hypocrisy.

    Instead it’s an admitted double standard.

  • http://umslopogaas.wordpress.com Umslopogaas

    @Susan Walsh:

    I don’t know what happened. When you first came here you seemed quite reasonable and serious.”

    I was being perfectly serious in my original response to Mike. Not sure how reasonable I was. I was somewhat upset by what I read (I even voiced this very emotion in post).

    I tend to not actively participate in your main debate so long as I do not have anything meaningful to say. So in this case I was reading all your comments and then noticed Mike’s. It struck a cord with me and I consequently responded.

    I’m not sure why MRAs think HUS is a good place to rag on American women. I mean, seriously. You’re talking to American women here. Your advice to expatriate would be more relevant on an MRA blog, no? You’re going to find very few potential expats here.”

    Look, Susan, let’s be clinically clean and crystal clear here. Let’s not shmooze around the vermicelli: you don’t like and don’t want people making comments on your blog recommending expatriation to men. Correct? Because if this is the case then, please, just be straight forward and forbid it already.

    On the other hand, if you are merely serious vis a vis your claim about me being able to only find “very few potential expats here” I most respectfully beg to differ. Afaik, this blog is also frequented by rather a lot of men, specifically ‘nice guys’. Mike, for instance, seemed like a prime candidate for relocation…what with the divorce-rape and all.

    It is these men that I desire to speak to. The women here do not interest me much, one way or another. And for the women, certainly, expatriation is not really an option (because most of them wouldn’t stand a chance versus Asian/Eastern European women in the expat SMP).

    But for western men, specifically nice guys / Betas, expating, imo, is the way to go. Alternately, marriage tourism / bride importation. It’s a lot less complicated than finding a trustworthy US wife (and divorce rates are radically lower).

    That in a nutshell is my agenda, if any.

    My take: you don’t want to hear criticism of American women – which I find kind of ironic – seeing as you are conducting your own kind of criticism of present US female behavior.

    Or is it because your criticism is meant to be ‘constructive’ (for women) whereas mine is not? Because that is true. I offer no real solution for (most) US women, apart from radical realignment / behavioral revolution.

    Anyways, I’m cool with just leaving you to your “debate”. There are other places to fish, after all. And I’d rather bid you all farewell bevor ending up like these guys here:

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Umslo

      Look, Susan, let’s be clinically clean and crystal clear here. Let’s not shmooze around the vermicelli: you don’t like and don’t want people making comments on your blog recommending expatriation to men. Correct? Because if this is the case then, please, just be straight forward and forbid it already.

      I already have. From my Rules of Engagement:

      Do not: Include sweeping generalizations about any group of people based on sex, religion, race, age, profession, income, or education level.

      In addition, I’ve stated this outright at Dalrock’s and debated it there. I’m not sure why you’re bringing it up here. I feel no need to defend my decision not to let men come here and say that American women are damaged feminist sluts, and to find a good wife, you need to go to another country. I think it’s a preposterous claim, though I don’t question anyone’s decision to live and marry wherever they prefer. I don’t understand why you think I should serve as a travel agency. If that is your sole agenda, then damn it, I wish I hadn’t worked so hard to debate you rationally a couple of weeks ago.

      As I’ve said many times now, I have no problem with men refusing to marry or leaving the U.S. to marry elsewhere. To each his own – love is hard to find, and I wouldn’t deny anyone the right to seek it where they can. But I’m not going to be a soapbox for that agenda. As you say, I am working to help American women find partners, and that is a two-pronged effort: being worthy of marriage, and selecting worthy men. Your agenda subverts my mission, but mostly it’s just always OT. Your target audience, if here at all, is also at other manosphere blogs. I can think of several where you can bitch about American women to your heart’s content.

  • jess

    doug1 at 219

    i would agree that ‘leftish’ men are less judgmental – i would say I’ve have seen a clear trend there.

    but beta guys rejecting experienced women? I really didn’t get that at all from my conversations- of course this assumes I can identify beta/alpha and I think thats tricky. I think its more a geopolitical thing than a alpha/beta thing.

    I think ‘number’ is on people lists somewhere, I concede that, its just WHERE on that list is it?. I think for most guys and girls SOH, height, income, eyes etc come higher up.

    People often say on here that you should judge people by what they do, not what they say- well on that basis I maintain ‘number’ is not quite the deal breaker that HUS claims it to be. I guess I’m saying most/many guys are not slaves to hypocritical thought- theres a compliment in there somewhere.

    Now if you excuse me I have 22 cats to feed.

  • deti

    VD: “no woman turns down a man she finds attractive due to his bodycount being too high. She might use it as an ex post facto rationale to justify her decision to turn him down, but it’s not going to be the causal factor. ”

    Byron: “I would agree. Something I’ve noticed, here at HUS as well as elsewhere, is how a female ‘group mind’ seems to take over & amplify emotions whenever this subject comes up. Whereas most women’s dealings with men as individuals, away from the sisterhood & out in the world, don’t seem to bear out this belief that they are unattracted to men successful with women at all. ”

    Maybe not so much as HUS, but certainly in the world at large there is a mentality fed by the feminist mindset that everything must be exactly equal. I’ve heard lots of women say in public “a man with lots of partners before me? Ewwww, gross!” In fact I’ve heard that expressed here at HUS before. But then they see attractive man with 50+ partners and bed him anyway.

    By the same token feminists fed us the trope of virgin shaming. A virgin or a woman with a low count is not as valuable sexually. She “can’t get a man”. She is “inexperienced” and “no man wants that”. “No man wants to have to break in a virgin”.

  • jess

    doug at 239

    no its “I can do it but you can’t”- its hypocritical in essence.

  • Doug1

    Doc—

    It’s interesting – long ago I used to think that having a large number of sexual partners would count against me (as a man) when it came to women. Actually, if anything its increased my market-value. The various times the topic’s come up, the woman said something like, “I wanted to know why so many women went to bed with you.” I first experienced that effect back in college with sororities – nail one of the hottest girls in a sorority, and the others seemed to line up for a turn.

    Yuup, found the same thing in college. Actually I knew about this by middle school, although there the sexual activity was more like first and second base, and sometimes third.

    Never try to understand the mind of a woman when it comes to her “reasons” – just know how to make it work to your advantage.

    Heartiste/Roissy does a pretty damn good job of systematically explicating it, so that guys taking his red pill can understand it pretty damn well.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I first experienced that effect back in college with sororities – nail one of the hottest girls in a sorority, and the others seemed to line up for a turn.

      Sorority girls are the most promiscuous women on college campuses. They largely make up the 20% of promiscuous women.

      Translation: sluts love it when you’ve banged a lot of other girls they know.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    Yohami has an entirely different definition [of alpha].

    I don’t think he really does in practice. He does like to emphasize inner game though, and also status, and less learning game “tricks”. He puts down PUA’s who’ve gotten there or who pretend to have by learning cookbook techniques.

    Roissy isn’t really much about tricks of the Mystery sort either, actually. He’s given a few, but mostly he’s about teaching what sexually attracts women.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    I’ve already linked to the Harvard Business School professors whose entire careers focus on remediating alpha behaviors in the workplace.

    Yeah that’s what we need alright. More feminist feminizing of the American workplace, and the alphas who have managed to work within it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      Alpha males in corporations hamper productivity by alienating employees. It’s bad for biz.

  • Charm

    @sassy

    Could just be me. My personality has a tendency to be a bit intense. I have a dark sense of humor which if not kept under wraps can get pretty unlady like. I will admit though that most men my age naturally arent my type. So I dont think of them that way anyhow. Men are often surprised though when I open my mouth though. It takes a lot to offend me so people can be themselves around me.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    In two separate studies, researchers found that “men with high numbers of sex partners, but not men with low numbers of partners, experienced a decrease in their partner’s physical and sexual attractiveness following first-time sexual intercourse. In contrast, women, more than men, experienced increases in feelings of love and commitment following first-time sex.”

    How low were the number of sex partners on average for the low partner group? I would expect this effect to be highest when comparing men with very low numbers of partners to men who can easily get cute and hot girls for fast and often casual sex.

    I also think this tends to work in a less chemical sort of way that this passage implies, except maybe for men with VERY low partner counts, like one or two or three.

    Thinking back for me as I said whether I’m less attracted to her or more or the same after having first sex with her will tend to depend on her a good lot. If she’s just a casual sex conquest I never had any intention of possibly moving to an LTR with cause she’s not really all that special to me, then yeah I’ll probably feel less attracted to her afterwards. Especially if she’s a 7 not to mention a 6, though it’s not entirely about looks. Done that conquest already, next, have options. However if she’s an 8 or 9, fun to hang with, smart and compatible, and was a firecracker in bed, and easily orgasms, I’ll likely be more attracted to her after sex and intimacy than before.

    Low number of partner betas in contrast are likely coming off a desert of extended celibacy, so they’re strongly pulled to wanting her and sex with her more. They don’t have easy options, or abundance.

  • Rum

    It is not so much that “alpha” males exist, it is that females have receptors in their brains that light up and cause weird, moist yearning down there when exposed to certain male behaviors. A natural beta guy who is momentariliary infused with alpha-vibes will trip these receptors just as strongly as a guy who does this every day. Guys easily understand this because we can look back at successful interactions with the female hind-brain and see what we did right. Or wrong.
    In other words, a stereo-typical “alpha” can easily castrate himself by adopting beta vibes. And a natural “beta” who just killed someone with his bare hands is likely to get vag-love without really trying.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      A natural beta guy who is momentariliary infused with alpha-vibes will trip these receptors just as strongly as a guy who does this every day.

      Which is exactly what happened with Alex in the previous post.

  • Doug1

    Jess–

    no its “I can do it but you can’t”- its hypocritical in essence.

    That’s not what hypocrisy means, in essence or otherwise.

    It would only be hypocritical if the person uttering such a standard also says they believe that the genders are the same except where they’re socially constructed to be different, or perhaps for someone who professes allegiance to absolute gender equality. I profess neither, nor did the dad in that cartoon.

  • Doug1

    Susan Walsh—

    The guy who boasted of banging a so-so girl at the top of a slide in a playground for 70 frickin’ minutes while her bf sat at home. The guy is a bottom feeder.

    That was hardly typical of his activities with girls. He feeds a lot more towards the top by far most of the time. She was a 7 I think he said which has become unusual for him for some time. It’s rather the low point in fact. Big wooop. You’re just on about character assassinating him because, yeah he is a player. A young one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      How do you know how good looking FFY’s conquests are? Anyway, after that FR I find it hard to believe he ever gets a Round Two. Slutty girls generally won’t tolerate a guy who’s no good in the sack.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    Sorority girls are the most promiscuous women on college campuses. They largely make up the 20% of promiscuous women.

    They also tend to have the prettiest and most beautiful girls who are most social and most extroverted. Not many nerd girls in sororities.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    Alpha males in corporations hamper productivity by alienating employees. It’s bad for biz.

    Yeah I’m mostly not buying it. You’re on a mission to rag on alphas as much as you can, and look for studies to bolster that mission I think.

    There are different styles of being alpha, but yeah as for most styles that rise in business, or the professions, I’m largely not buying it. Strong leaders are usually alphas.

    A heavily cooperative style is often cover for tons of time wasting meetings and female friendly toned down competitiveness, or at least being upfront about it. Males naturally tend to cooperate in quite hierarchical ways.

  • lovelost

    @Susan #214
    Bold, self-confident, and demanding, alpha males get things done. But the traits that make them
    so productive can also drive their coworkers crazy.

    The authors of this article seems to me are “confused”. Being a beta myself and having the good fortune of having my PhD advisor who is alpha, I can tell you one thing for sure,

    You Will Grow A Lot in Life, if you surround yourself with ALpha Energy.

    I am Bold and self-confident, when it comes to my professional life.I guess that’s the reason I love my job and against office romance, since I see that as a distraction.

    The research paper was published in HBR, is somewhat unbelievable to me. Anyhow it is HBR. HBS and other Ivy league institutions thrive on the donations of alphas who succeeded in life. it is unthankful of them to accuse them of being the ones who drive coworkers crazy.

    In fact have you heard a Alpha complain about beta. Yes, I have, in fact my PhD advisor complains. He always said to me, I am tenured faculty, at the age of 60, have a house which is paid for, children all settled, the university will pay pension, but still I work 80hours a week.

    How come you feel tired working 80hrs a week when you’re 30, and you don;t have a tenured faculty position, you don’t have a house yet. There can only be two reasons, either you hate your job or you’re incompetent.

    The coworkers are ones who in my opinion is/are simply lazy. Being in a organization now, I can certainly vouch for that. In fact they are what can be correctly refered to as whinners. They will complain even if the heat is turned on slighty higher, but won’t take the god damn sweater off.

    In fact my recommendation to the coworkers who can’t deal with Alpha bosses is to quit their job and make way for others. The nations has 9% unemployement rate.

    If you can’t become “bold, self-confident, and demanding”, then stop criticising other for taking that risk in life.
    Wikipedia say, Microsoft has 92000 employees worldwide. One Alpha has provided employment to 91999 betas. So if you don’t have in you to become Alpha stop criticising them. Remain stuck in your beta mode and sulk.

    I have always admired the alpha personality both in the workplace and in SMP, in fact I have repeatedly mention that I don’t hate alphas, rather thankful to them for bringing female hypergamy to beta attention.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @lovelost

      They’re highly esteemed professors from one of the best business schools in the world, and they’ve gotten rich consulting with alpha males who are screwing up at work. They’ve consulted with Fortune 500 CEOs and many senior and middle level managers. People who seek them out, saying, “Help me, I’m too alpha!” (Or are more likely force to seek remedial counseling by senior management or the board.) They are not confused.

  • pvw

    On feminism, sex positive or otherwise:
    Correct, and the losers picked up their toys and went home. The third wave is positive on sex work.

    My observations: I read an early draft of a book a colleague is finishing up with editing, a book that has more second wave feminist themes, comparative feminism–equal treatment, cultural/difference; dominance (MacKinnon) but applied to a different context–women in the workplace and policy. I might post to the forum board once I have more information.

    Charm, Sassy, Hope:

    I’m an INTJ, and I am similar to you. When I was single, I noticed attractive men and those who appeared interested in me. I chatted with them and got to know them, but my “INT” made me very introspective in thinking and assessing what I learned and deciding whether to date and take them seriously. My “NTJ” operated like a chess player, considering their frames of reference, all the possible moves and implications in what moves I wanted to make. And because I am intraverted, I wasn’t saying a word on what was on my mind.

    My approach saved me lots of times, I know, it helped me identify the alpha cads by just going slowly, observing, talking and listening. Beyond that, it helped me land the husband; just by talking, listening and assessing, I knew just what type of man he is, realized that he fit well into my vision/ideal of what I wanted, and I knew just how to get him. Tee hee….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PVW

      I’ll be very interested to hear about that book. We’ll get the early review from you!

      Your description of recognizing your husband’s worth in part because of your INTJ profile makes me think – can we encourage people of certain temperaments to successfully adapt the successful behaviors of other temperaments? Can people change? I hope the answer is yes, but it’s possible that in the end, HUS will only make a difference to people with certain traits.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    You can credit me with raising the issue of manwhores here. It’s hardly something I made up. It’s prevalent in the media and a word that frequently comes up among women. I’m not saying that a man with a high count can’t get women. I’m saying that there are an increasing number of women who disqualify them.

    Increasing from a very low base, due mostly, probably, to this blog.

    Manhores is a feminist meme to throw against alpha male smugness that number of cute and hot girls = stud, while the same in girls = slut.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Manhores is a feminist meme to throw against alpha male smugness that number of cute and hot girls = stud, while the same in girls = slut.

      I disagree. Feminists, when they’re straight, like manwhores. As I said, I have no interest in convincing men that women feel repulsed by a high bodycount. Some do, some don’t, IME. I have no interest in debating it. It is what it is.

      The relevant point in the post is that players tire of women after one sexual encounter. A few men have verified that is true for them. Women need to know that.

      Nothing I have ever said here is true for everyone. We are all on a spectrum, for every single trait and preference you can name. And I don’t make this stuff up – I’m reporting academic research.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    So we´re back at the misinformation channel.

  • lovelost

    @Susan #259
    Alpha males in corporations hamper productivity by alienating employees. It’s bad for biz.

    When betas lack vision, they accuse the alphas of alienating them. It’s a classic guilt trip betas like to put on the alphas. Sadly alphas response to that has been “you can kiss my a**”.

  • lovelost

    @Susan #267
    They’re highly esteemed professors from one of the best business schools in the world, and they’ve gotten rich consulting with alpha males who are screwing up at work. They’ve consulted with Fortune 500 CEOs and many senior and middle level managers. People who seek them out, saying, “Help me, I’m too alpha!” (Or are more likely force to seek remedial counseling by senior management or the board.) They are not confused.

    I guess what you’re trying to say is there is example of Microsoft and Enron, one beneficiary of alpha energy and other casualty. I am certainly referring to the former.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @lovelost

      I consider Bill Gates a beta.

  • Anna

    Sorry for lack of knowledge, but who is FFY? Curious about this person who supposedly pulls 8/9s all the time. And whether they are actually that.

  • lovelost

    @Susan #274
    Can people change?

    only if they can overcome the bullshit ringing in their unconscious mind. :)

  • Doug1

    Jess—

    i would agree that ‘leftish’ men are less judgmental – i would say I’ve have seen a clear trend there.

    I don’t think they’re less judgmental at all, they’re just (negatively) judgmental about different things. If anything I think they’re probably more judgmental overall than more conservative men are. Leftish men are very judgmental in a sort of holier than thou way about anything they feel to be even a slight violation of PC taboos. They’re quick to call any opposition to feminist positions “misogyny”. They’re quick to try to same as “racist” any noticing of racial differences whatsoever, no matter how germain to the issue at hand. And so on.

    I think ‘number’ is on people lists somewhere, I concede that, its just WHERE on that list is it?. I think for most guys and girls SOH, height, income, eyes etc come higher up.

    That’s not how it works I don’t think. Most guys have some number, or more an impression of past promiscuity, that’s just too high, and if reached they’re not going there for marriage, or LTR with kids. It’s at a different level with different guys. They might stretch it a bit for a girl they have REALLY good feelings about otherwise, but only to a point.

    Promiscuous girls do get married to someone anyway, if they don’t wait too long to settle for a partner, true. This is partly because the lie and evade a lot around this issue, and most guys aren’t very good at figuring the truth out, though I think I am through various ways. It’s partly because they haven’t all taken the red pill on how devastating to men divorce 2.0 usually is in Britain and especially America, if he’s a good earner, has kids, and makes more than she does, as is usual due to female hypergamy, and earnings versus other parts of life once married and esp. post kids. And it’s partly because some leftie men suffused with feminist beliefs think that women and men are the same on this issue, and that there’s no more risk of a “former” slut cheating and divorcing than there is with a good or relatively good girl.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    can we encourage people of certain temperaments to successfully adapt the successful behaviors of other temperaments? Can people change? I hope the answer is yes

    Its yes

  • lovelost

    @Susan #275
    I consider Bill Gates a beta.

    How come? what makes him beta. he is beta now all getting into philanthropy under the influence of Melinda. but earlier in his life, i don’t think he would fall into beta category.

  • Anacaona

    “Guess dad picks up the slack.”

    True when the role of the father was considered vital, another thing we owe to feminism aside from facilitating a woman breaking a home because she is unhaaaapy (but then this woman makess herself “happy” by making the husband her kids unhappy mathematically speaking doesn’t seen a fair deal), is that the father is not around and then when he isn’t the mother might neutralize his role because she considers it archaic and patriarchal.

    “@Sassy, I don’t think the common thread is the T. I think it’s the N. We N’s are about 25% of the population, but we talk a lot more online. Sensing people make up the majority, and they operate differently.”

    I seem to work similar falling for personality/mind first looks later but I am a ENF/TJ. so it seems that there most be something else we have in common.

    “I respect a woman who wants to use her brain. But auto-friendzoning guys will turn off physical cues you give a man. Wanting him to approach, indicate he should keep talking, touching him, etc. Without those, even a lot of betas will assume you’re not interested and walk away. If you WANT to end up single all your life…well.”

    I happen to agree with that I noticed that when I became a model (dressing better and wearing better make up and extensions) I had a lot of attention from males I could be interested (young and unmarried) but when they talked to me they seemed to go back to indifference so I noticed that there was something about my demeanor sabotaging me I had to work to internalize my womanly strengths to be able to keep a man sexually interested in me. Well one man in particular ;)

    “The only true way to learn how to spot a player is to date one.”
    Nope
    Other ways to learn include:
    Being the daughter of one, or having one or several relatives that are players. Roosh brotherly advice is one of the best proof that a player doesn’t want his female relatives to find a man like them. Had you see players introducing to each other’s female relatives?
    Being a good friend with one . Really if you managed to become a some sort of sister they will openly tell you all the dirty tricks they do and you could see then in action till your brain creates a pattern recognition without even have to kiss one (ewwww).
    Observing your girlfriends dating patterns and boyfriends. This is really easy pick your most unlucky in love friend and make her talk and hang out with his boyfriends and then as much as possible that will teach you everything you wanted to learn and more, Warning if the player hits on you is the moment to let go of the friendship if you tell her she wont believe you and if you are not properly trained you might fall for it, bad news no matter what.
    Cultivating the SSN (Smile, Shut up and Nod) this is kind of psychiatric technique of looking interested and not judging most men are proud of themselves. The nerd is dying to find someone to talk about their warhammer figures (so you know he is a keeper if this is the subject that fills his heart) but the player is proud of his sexual conquests and adventures if you get him to actually think you won’t judge him bad and destroy his chances of getting you laid he will tell you a lot of info about his women. I had a guy telling me his last girlfriend was a lesbian, that he had a threesome with her and her girlfriend while under the influence of coke in just an hour. A personal best.
    I will say the earlies sign of a player is the way he walks. I can spot, and dislike, a player a mile away they walk like they just cured cancer and specially in this culture that is designed to destroy men’s pride and spirit almost since birth a guy that is walking too prideful has a 99% chances of being an asshole alpha player. I will say run in the other direction. But if you want to test it try to talk to him and see how full of himself he is and how many sexescapades can you extract from him, then run.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      Great player tells there! It makes so much sense – if women think about it, they’ve usually grown up around a player or two. There’s so much to be learned through observation, yet most of us look without seeing (or even worse, projecting).

  • Doug1

    Susan Walsh–

    I consider Bill Gates a beta.

    He certainly has no game. At ALL. Hugh money and now clearly status though. His philanthropy helped his status a ton, because it turned around his previously rather socially demonized status, and power. Definitely a nerd, though a very business savvy nerd. Weird guy really.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Re Bill Gates: A woman in my b-school class went to work for an I-bank that did an early deal with Microsoft. She was assigned to be his “companion” at dinner – nothing shady, just asking him to dance and stuff. She said he was the most awkward guy ever, really a deer in the headlights dealing with a woman. I’m glad he found Melinda – they seem to have a very happy and stable home life.

      I admire him on several fronts.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    Larry Ellison of Oracle is a solid alpha, if not super alpha.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    Take away the POTUS from Barrak Obama or running for it as the great kinda white acting Black hope, and he’d probably be on the greater beta – lesser alpha line. He has had a ton of confidence from all the being praised as a model smart black guy thing from at least Harvard law on, maybe at Columbia after transferring in there from Occidental as well.

  • lovelost

    @Doug1 #281
    He certainly has no game. At ALL. Hugh money and now clearly status though. His philanthropy helped his status a ton, because it turned around his previously rather socially demonized status, and power. Definitely a nerd, though a very business savvy nerd. Weird guy really.

    he has no game, but turned the IBM on it;s head. he has no game, but at the age of 17 he promised a company he give them software, when he didn’t write a single line of code. his alpha is energy is not flamboyant, he is a cheeky alpha very opportunistic.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @lovelost

      he has no game, but turned the IBM on it;s head. he has no game, but at the age of 17 he promised a company he give them software, when he didn’t write a single line of code

      This is why I say that the future belongs to the betas. They’ve always been the engine that made civilization run, and in this technology era, they are the only ones capable of the kind of innovation that the U.S. economy will require for growth. There will some alpha CEO types sprinkled throughout, but IMO the future belongs to the STEM types.

  • Sassy6519

    Larry Ellison of Oracle is a solid alpha, if not super alpha.

    Solid alpha, maybe, but not a super alpha. The man is not very physically attractive.

  • Doug1

    Lovelost—

    How come? what makes him beta.

    Very few women think he has much sex appeal. No game and piss poor looks. However he does have tons of money, power that comes from running Microsoft for so long and having that kind of money, and status, esp. now with all his philanthropy. His philanthropy increase his appeal to women, rather than decreasing it, despite Melinda maybe having a lot to do with it. She probably mostly did to increase both of their’s status. Gates unlike Jobs had rather demonized status within the computer industry at least, before he left being operational head of Microsoft and fired up his philanthropies.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    As I said, I have no interest in convincing men that women feel repulsed by a high bodycount. Some do, some don’t, IME.

    Some theoretically do, in their forebrains. Very few operationally do, in what they actually choose. Lesser alphas definitely will, in large percentages, turn down a hot but they’ve learned promiscuous 8 in favor of a good girl, sexually hungry but also relationship wanting 7.5. Girls will rarely in actual fact make the same choice. They may talk among themselves about doing so though.

    I don’t think you’ve convinced a single any kind of alpha around here of your position. It’s just not what we encounter.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      I don’t think you’ve convinced a single any kind of alpha around here of your position. It’s just not what we encounter.

      Did you not read what I said? I’m not trying to convince you.

      I’m explaining to women that men with a promiscuous past make poor partners, generally speaking.

      You’ve already admitted to cohabiting with a stripper, Doug. My audience is not comprised of “hired guns,” so your experience really does not apply.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    How do you know how good looking FFY’s conquests are? Anyway, after that FR I find it hard to believe he ever gets a Round Two. Slutty girls generally won’t tolerate a guy who’s no good in the sack.

    Can never know for absolutely certain on the web, but his posts all have the ring of truth. I said on a prior thread that I suspect he exaggerated the length of time he and she spent having full on PinV sex, but that’s one of the few times I’ve thought he’d exagg. There’s tons of internal consistency with his frequent fratire LR’s. It all hangs together very well. He has lots of detail. He rates the girls, and I’ve never seen him rate highly a not so hot girl, as I have some others.

    He just reads like he’s really good at getting very hot girls.

  • lovelost

    @Doug1 #286
    No game and piss poor looks.

    C’mon Doug1 he is handsome, may be I am biased, he is my teenage hero, my desktop screensaver is Bill G photo. :)

  • Anacaona

    “C’mon Doug1 he is handsome, may be I am biased, he is my teenage hero, my desktop screensaver is Bill G photo.”

    His picture along was among my most cherished possessions in college. But you know us nerd lover girls :)

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    The relevant point in the post is that players tire of women after one sexual encounter. A few men have verified that is true for them. Women need to know that.

    Yeah and I’ve said it’s only true for me when I wasn’t ever considering her as a possible LTR girl, either because she wasn’t hot enough for that, or because of personality issues – wasn’t smart and fun enough for that, or wasn’t good enough at sex for that.

    I gave a substantial and nuanced couple of comments on that addressed to you, especially the second one, and you responded to neither. Why is that??

    Agenda is what I’m suggesting. Rather than truth seeking. Though I’m open to persuasion otherwise.

    What I really think is that you frustratingly sometimes go one way, and other times the other on that. Truth versus agenda through cherry picking studies, I mean.

    I think that’s the real core of e.g. Dalrock and his commenters coming down on you hard.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      I gave a substantial and nuanced couple of comments on that addressed to you, especially the second one, and you responded to neither. Why is that??

      I’m choosing to respond to fewer comments. I’m not sure what you are referring to here, but if it’s the question about how many partners = “low” you already have the tools to figure that out. I linked to the Barker article, which cites the study. My research work on this particular post is done. If you have a specific quarrel with the study, please explain with a cogent argument providing alternative evidence.

      I do have an agenda, and I’m open about that, but it doesn’t include lying. Back up that assertion with evidence or say goodbye.

      I think that’s the real core of e.g. Dalrock and his commenters coming down on you hard.

      You’re not very perceptive.

  • Mike

    @Doug1 283

    What is your biggest peeve about each other?

    PRESIDENT OBAMA: Oh, I don’t have one.

    MICHELLE OBAMA: My list is too long.

  • Doug1

    Mike–

    Yeah.

  • pvw

    Susan:

    @PVW

    I’ll be very interested to hear about that book. We’ll get the early review from you!

    Your description of recognizing your husband’s worth in part because of your INTJ profile makes me think – can we encourage people of certain temperaments to successfully adapt the successful behaviors of other temperaments? Can people change? I hope the answer is yes, but it’s possible that in the end, HUS will only make a difference to people with certain traits.

    My reply:

    I can’t say I know all about the book, but I’ll try–I attended a conference several years ago that she organized and then I saw the chapter she wrote as the introduction. I haven’t seen what the contributors wrote, but from the conference, it looked interesting!

    I don’t think it is impossible to teach others to adapt temperaments. A great book that focuses on career stuff is the best resource I have handy in helping people understand their type. It is not about relationships, but it can’t hurt: Do What You Are, by Tieger and Barron-Tieger.

    As for me as an INTJ, my feelings have to be grounded in my thinking, no matter how objective or ruthless I have to try and be with myself in assessing them. It is not that I don’t feel, but the actions I pursue based on my feelings are grounded in some form of rationality, ie., pragmatics or a cost-benefit analysis, of whatever form, an assessment of risks to my emotions or resources.

    So the alpha types that I knew found me attractive were friendzoned real quick because I knew they were way too risky based on an assessment of what I observed and heard them say.

    And if anything, my observations tended to pan out.

    I can think of a few examples from way back in the day–the guy who would only give me his email and not his phone, urging me to contact him, but he would not want to contact me. I happened to see him a short time thereafter across campus one day kissing a woman as they walked along. Or the one who pretended to be single while he had an out-of-town girlfriend. I just listened, observed and asked questions.

    The guy I dated for a short while who seemed to only want to talk about sex and what he wanted to do with me, and not seeming to have any interest in anything beyond the bedroom, way too inappropriate in my view, when I never presented myself that way–friendzoned real quick until I stopped bothering with him, I don’t think he ever realized what happened! It bugged me that he never seemed to have any interest in taking the initiative and doing date-type things, but he was willing to go along with date-type things that I had in mind and treat it as a date. Yet, he wanted to get in my pants.

    In any event, these are similar stories to what some of the young women have posted here, except for me it was a long time ago when I was in graduate school.

    So in getting the “tingle for the husband,” it was a matter of adding up all the factors that spelled in my practical mind “beta: caring, supportive, warm, grounded, careful and cautious, marriage-minded,” and as you urge young women to do when they find jems like that, I “went all in!”

  • VD

    Lastly, since i have no stake in this, and because i find myself out of ‘hookkup culture’ and have lost too many years to this, i simply act as the old codger on the street corner holding the sign ‘The End is Nigh’. I’m perfectly content to sit back and watch Rome burn. It’s not up to me to fix the system. I don’t have a vagina. I only have a tormented past and a brighter future with more disposable income and Modern Warfare 3.

    I have to STRENUOUSLY object to this patently absurd statement. Speaking as a Prestige Mode COD:MW2 player, I absolutely insist that you recant and devote your time to Battlefield 3 instead.

    Solid alpha, maybe, but not a super alpha. The man is not very physically attractive.

    You’re not understanding how this works. Larry Ellison is one of the foremost alphas on the planet. The old joke around Silicon Valley used to be that he would stop marrying beautiful and intelligent women when the Stanford School of Business stopped graduating them.

  • Sassy6519

    @ VD

    I get that. I know that Alphas come in many flavors. To me, however, the highest alphas are the few men who have social dominance, wealth, and are very physically attractive. Hence why I said he was a solid alpha, but not a super alpha. He can bang chicks all day long, but his alpha type doesn’t compare to men who are way better looking than him. That’s just my opinion.

  • JQ

    @ Susan 249

    First, thank you.

    In re Teachman’s potential biases, I can’t say I picked up a particular vibe from the paper. I can say that there is at least one study which supports Teachman’s claim that cohabitation with others before the eventual ex-husband matters [1]. Also, if cohabitation can be taken as a proxy for premarital sex, then [4] is a recent meta-analysis (their answer: cohabitation negatively impacts the prospects for marriage of the cohabitating couple). I don’t have the full text of either, just the abstracts, so I can’t speak at the moment for their quality or other hidden diamonds.

    In the discussion, Teachman is quite fair about pointing out the major limitation of the study, that of a lack of information about men’s sexual and cohabitation histories as the data collection protocol simply did not until 2002 specify that it be collected [pg 453].

    As a wider research question, I am curious about how premarital sex and age of first sexual encounter correlate to the probability of various reasons being reported for the dissolution of a cohabitation arrangement or a marriage. In a previous post’s comments there was a long discussion of what causes are reported for divorce or separation. If a couple was okay enough with each other’s sexual histories (as they were understood at the time of marriage) to walk down the isle then I have doubts about the same sex history subsequently driving them apart years later. Again, there has been discussion on this topic here at HUS, but I wonder if data exists and what it says. If such makes it into a future post about divorce, I will be very interested to get into the primary literature. A quick Google Scholar search suggests [3] and [4] would bear reading base on the abstracts (will check if I can get them for free through work tomorrow–probably not). Both say there is a connection, but I don’t know if they actually speak to the question I’ve posed above. Perhaps you have a citation up your sleeve?

    [1] Lichter, D. T. and Qian, Z. (2008), Serial Cohabitation and the Marital Life Course. Journal of Marriage and Family, 70: 861–878. doi: 10.1111/j.1741-3737.2008.00532.x

    [2] Jose, A., Daniel O’Leary, K. and Moyer, A. (2010), Does Premarital Cohabitation Predict Subsequent Marital Stability and Marital Quality? A Meta-Analysis. Journal of Marriage and Family, 72: 105–116. doi: 10.1111/j.1741-3737.2009.00686.x

    [3] Kahn, J. R. and London, K. A., Premarital Sex and the Risk of Divorce. Journal of Marriage and the Family, v53 n4 p845-55 Nov 1991

    [4] Paik, A. (2011), Adolescent Sexuality and the Risk of Marital Dissolution. Journal of Marriage and Family, 73: 472–485. doi: 10.1111/j.1741-3737.2010.00819.x

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JQ

      No citations, handy unfortunately, but I keep my eyes open and have Google alerts for all these topics.

      If a couple was okay enough with each other’s sexual histories (as they were understood at the time of marriage) to walk down the isle then I have doubts about the same sex history subsequently driving them apart years later. Again, there has been discussion on this topic here at HUS, but I wonder if data exists and what it says. I

      My sense is not that resentment pops up later re sexual history, but that the desire for sexual variety pops up and leads to infidelity. This makes sense to me in one way, then again according to Teachman’s study I would have been a bad bet for marriage and I was not. Most women my age that I know have several sexual partners before marriage, but have been married, presumably happily, for a very long time.

      The jury is definitely still out on this one, I don’t think the data is there.

  • JQ

    Susan:

    My citation to [4] in the first paragraph should read [2].

    Sorry.

  • lovelost

    @Susan #301
    but IMO the future belongs to the STEM types.

    Thanks for all the support and motivation. However I would like to be more alpha in my professional life. Regarding the SMP, to a very large extent I have given up. I am focusing all my energy on the former, I know I can make a difference first in my life, and hopefully in others. Thank you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @lovelost

      However I would like to be more alpha in my professional life. Regarding the SMP, to a very large extent I have given up. I am focusing all my energy on the former, I know I can make a difference first in my life, and hopefully in others.

      I wish you all the best in your professional and personal life. None of us is perfect, we all could use some personal development. You’re working hard to understand alpha qualities, and I have little worry that you will wind up suffering from an overabundance of alpha to the point where you need counseling. :)

  • Rum

    Today.
    Nurse starring at my name-badge.
    I say, ” I look like a dead Johnny Cash.
    Nurse, “You look like a live Johnny Depp”.
    The thing speaks for itself.
    Its Friday Night.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      Today.
      Nurse starring at my name-badge.
      I say, ” I look like a dead Johnny Cash.
      Nurse, “You look like a live Johnny Depp”.
      The thing speaks for itself.
      Its Friday Night.

      Wow, that even made me tingle. That’s about the most solid IOI I’ve heard in ages. Now we all want to see a pic ;)

  • Sassy6519

    Wow, that even made me tingle. That’s about the most solid IOI I’ve heard in ages. Now we all want to see a pic ;)

    I agree with Susan, Rum. We want pics.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    FWIW, I’ve always found FFY’s accounts to be very accurate to what I’ve seen during my college years. Whether he’s actually being truthful or not, he represents the environment very well.

  • Mike

    #VD 295

    I have to STRENUOUSLY object to this patently absurd statement. Speaking as a Prestige Mode COD:MW2 player, I absolutely insist that you recant and devote your time to Battlefield 3 instead.

    You insufferable piece of sh*t. Thanks to you I had to spend the last 10 minutes looking for my LCD monitor cleaning spray.

    Do put a severe LOL warning on your comments next time.. you never know when the dude on the other end of the internet is busy drinking his protein shake and does a severe spit-take reading your remarks.

  • Doug1

    Susan Walsh—

    Admitted???

    She was way upscale in the stripper department, beautiful, actually her father was an exec (divorced for quite a while) at Exxon Mobile, fell in love with me, was way hot, and she then went onto a good law school, with tons of encouragement and ideational help from me. I kinda saved her from falling into a bohemian hard drugs culture in NYC, which she was starting to do, but grasped onto me to stop that. What in hell is there for me to be ashamed of????

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    You’re not very perceptive.

    hahaha

  • Esau

    Sassy @226: For example, I was talking to this guy at work this past week about Skyrim (a video game for those not in the know)

    I used to play Skyrim, then I took an arrow in the knee.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com/ LeapofaBeta

    Better than being an arrow and taking an adventurer to the knee. Whats a broken arrow to do?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Esau

    I used to play Skyrim, then I took an arrow in the knee.

    Awww yeah!!

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    I’m choosing to respond to fewer comments.

    Implausible deniability.

  • Mike
  • http://flyfreshandyoung.wordpress.com flyfreshandyoung

    Ha there you go again Susan. Do I bother you that much?

    For what it’s worth, I actually put up quite a few of the conquests on twitpic back in wbk days. “Rate Me” became a weekly running theme on my twitter. The consensus was 7s and 8s for most the chicks I put up. Couple 6s. Couple 9s. Ha Doug is giving me a bit too much credit in that 9 department. 9s are pretty rare

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ha there you go again Susan. Do I bother you that much?

      Players are parasites.

      “My idea of commitment was to take all that you could give.”

  • Anacaona

    “Great player tells there! It makes so much sense – if women think about it, they’ve usually grown up around a player or two. There’s so much to be learned through observation, yet most of us look without seeing (or even worse, projecting).”

    Heh this is kind of my life work there. I better learned a thing or two from hearing both accounts from my female friends played out and from my male friends playing, I could write two books and a pamphlet on those low lives. To be fair, I actually plan to write a post about cheating tales for husbands. I know the myth says that women are not as easy to catch when cheating but I think is a wrong myth I gladly only had known one personal female friend that has cheated but I observed cheating from accounts of husbands and lovers and in every case it was pretty obvious to me I could even point out to when they had sex for the first time with the other man. I think is another “but I looked at him he should know I like him!!!” thing in which what is pretty obvious for women just go over the head for men. I mean Athol is pretty good but I think I can add a thing or two about the subject.

    “I’m glad he found Melinda – they seem to have a very happy and stable home life. ”

    Err he has an arrangement in which he can see an old girlfriend once a year no questions asked from Melinda, there is a reason I say his picture WAS a precious possession.

  • Mike

    Johny Depp is about as Alpha as one gets.

    Every girl i know swoons over him.
    My lady friend would love to knock his pirate boots
    With the exception of Pirates, he has only ever done single movies and individual roles that he wishes to do, not what an agent tells him to do
    He chooses how he wishes to portray the characters.
    He stood up to Disney and said “I play Cpt Jack my way or i walk” and Disney turtled
    He doesn’t give a damn what people think about his movies, he does them for his own personal enjoyment
    Piercing eyes, rugged stubble and a perfect set of chompers along with his own fashion sense

    His personal life hasn’t been perfect, but by hollywood standards.. it’s been quite tame compared to the major train wrecks.

    I wish i had his teeth :)

    He’s the kind of guy who could have gone on a pump and dump holocaust. He didn’t, he aspired for better things.

  • lovelost

    @HUS,
    Katy Perry’s Parents: Divorce Was Sent By God
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/06/katy-perrys-parents-divorce_n_1190065.html

    seriously????

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike

    Don’t get me started on Johnny Depp. That is probably the one man who could have me every which way to Sunday, no questions asked.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    “Johny Depp is about as Alpha as one gets.

    Every girl i know swoons over him.”

    Uh, no. I don’t. I find him repulsive, actually.

    I’m straight, I swear!

  • SayWhaat

    I consider Bill Gates a beta.

    A very sexy beta. Mmrrawwr.

  • SayWhaat

    *is about to set desktop picture*

    Err he has an arrangement in which he can see an old girlfriend once a year no questions asked from Melinda, there is a reason I say his picture WAS a precious possession.

    Well….fuck.

    :(

  • SayWhaat

    Don’t get me started on Johnny Depp. That is probably the one man who could have me every which way to Sunday, no questions asked.

    !!

    *new desktop picture*

    :D

  • Anacaona

    “Well….fuck.”

    I know… I know. :(

  • Mike

    @Saywhaat 325

    oh my dear sweet baby deep fried jesus.. that picture of Gates..

    i just threw up in my mouth.

  • jlw

    Susan said:

    “But to play devil’s advocate for a moment, we have a situation where 80% of guys are not having (much) casual sex, which lands them in a Catch 22. As virgins they can’t attract a female (who evolved to appreciate preselection by other females), but neither can they make any headway unless they can lose their virginity and learn how to interact with women.”

    While that may be a problem, it’s not that one attribute which closes the portal to virginity-losing. Long-term or lifelong unwanted virginity is almost always the result of a combination of factors: physical, emotional, intellectual and external. (Exceptions would be prison, severe physical disability, etc. These could be “one factor” causes of [opposite sex – heh] virginity.)

    You don’t want to fall into the same trap that bromide sprinklers do when they try to comfort a short or ugly or fat or poor virgin and say things like “lots of short (or fat)(or ugly)(or poor) guys get laid!”

    That’s true, as far as it goes. But not a lot of short AND fat AND ugly AND poor guys get laid. These problems tend to cluster. Combine them with any kind of standards, and incel follows.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com/ LeapofaBeta

    @ JLW
    “That’s true, as far as it goes. But not a lot of short AND fat AND ugly AND poor guys get laid. These problems tend to cluster. Combine them with any kind of standards, and incel follows.”

    Do you feel like a victim for any of these? All but the ugly and short are within your control. Go to a gym and lose weight. Go into a profession that makes more money. For the short you can get a personality that is larger than life – you just need to know that you WILL need to compensate. Ugly you can’t fix, but I bet you’d be surprised by how many women can rationalization hamster that away if you have confidence. Instead of being a flaw, they’d see it as a defining feature that they love.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com/ LeapofaBeta

    In other words – If you’re like most men and upset that women are feeling entitled to things, then you really have no grounds to be upset and start feeling like you’re entitled to their attention. Make some life changes if what you’re doing isn’t working for you.

  • jlw

    Hey! Thanks for the interest.

    LeapofaBeta said, “Do you feel like a victim for any of these?”

    (1) I’m not a victim. Life is what you make it. Like the Usenet legend Largo Coats once said:

    “The big thing is to take responsibility for you. You are responsible
    for your own happiness. You must decide that all the slings and arrows
    that fate has thrown at you are not the fault of anybody and that you
    must overcome them and write your own successful story. Ultimately,
    you must play with the cards that you are dealt, and that you must
    learn which cards can be improved and which cards cannot, and to
    adjust one’s life to achieve the maximum happiness. ”

    (2) What I am is inmaterial in my point, and that is that problems cluster and focusing on one independently of the others when evaluating SMV can be a mistake.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com/ LeapofaBeta

    Sweet, love to hear that you’re not playing victim card but are instead living well and overcoming.

    I’ll agree with the point that things like that tend to snowball into a hellish hole to get out of. But I’d also tell people that when you commit to making positive changes those build just as much momentum.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “I consider Bill Gates a beta.”

    I think the public perception of Bill Gates as a geeky beta is one of the greatest public-relations coups of the 20th century. He’s a lot more like Jobs and Ellison than anybody wants to admit.

    The fact that Gates holds court with, and dominates, people like Steve Ballmer (Ballmer was close with big-ballers Jim Cramer and Eliot Spitzer at Harvard IIRC), to say nothing of the dozens of startup CEOs he’s absolutely taken to lunch, plus the anecdotes of his hardline business style, is proof of his mastery of people in pursuit of his vision. Mastery of people to execute vision = leadership = alpha to the max.

    In fact, I think Bill’s status as a STEM guy is something of an accidental coincidence. He was excellent in computers at Harvard, but he’s an entrepreneur who happened to be familiar with technology and recognize what it could do when marketed to society. Many, many highly talented computer science types never got their ideas into mainstream society – Bill did, not because his technology was better but because he understood (and in some cases invented) the business steps required to make it happen.

    Bill Gates’ coding ability, while commendable (an algorithm he wrote held a world speed record for decades), is a small part of Microsoft’s success, although supposedly in the 80’s he would micromanage the code of individual developers. His ability to outscheme competitors and buy up technologies to fill out Microsoft’s product portfolio is the crux of his building the most successful enterprise of the modern era.

    I think Bill Gates is something like a situational alpha – exceedingly alpha in business, but just not that good with girls. The Roissysphere has a term, “paper alpha,” for a guy who is successful in business and with bros, but has no game. I don’t think Bill qualifies as this, though, because I’ve never heard of him trying to use his money to bang chicks, he’s not trying to buy his way into women’s pants. Bill is either not that interested in girls, too busy working or simply gave up thinking his skills were so poor it wasn’t worth the effort. I think he just didn’t give a shit, so consumed was he with his vision.

    Having spent some time in Silly Valley, I think I can speak with some modest authority that the people “the future belongs to” are guys with technical acumen paired with a brilliant understanding of people (both their markets/users at large and the competitors they have to outsmart). Whether they have the time or skills to bang women, they have an ability to address the needs and egos of people that that raises them far above your average reactive beta.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      Your analysis of Gates is right on, which is why talking about alpha/beta in terms of lays scored makes zero sense. It always comes down to this – there is no consensus on these terms. The more I think about it, the more I think that being attractive to women should be a by-product of alphaness, not an indicator of it.

      P.S. I don’t think Gates’ image is a PR coup at all. He always had a rep for being difficult/having poor social skills and succeeding anyway on the strength of his geek cred. Steve Jobs – there’s a well handled brand.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    lovelost,

    “Thanks for all the support and motivation. However I would like to be more alpha in my professional life. Regarding the SMP, to a very large extent I have given up. I am focusing all my energy on the former, I know I can make a difference first in my life, and hopefully in others. Thank you.”

    This made me a little sad. Let me tell you I’ve felt your way before about the SMP. As Susan and others can tell you I’ve followed a somewhat unconventional journey to adding game to my life, and I seek very particular things from the SMP that are themselves rare so it’s not an easy go. But it has been worth it, in many ways. It sounds trite but I think you can derive more benefit from the SMP than you think.

    At the very least, don’t be a stranger around my blog ;)

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “While women often prefer men who have sexual options, and consequently some sexual experience, they would do well do avoid promiscuous men.”

    Interesting take on a thorny issue. I suppose the logical question is, what number makes a man promiscuous? My personal number is low relative to the median for men (5), but is 3 to 6 lifetime partners low? If so, most men (60%) by their own admission score pretty low. I kind of consider that normal, but I suppose what’s “normal” has been redefined to accomodate guys with much higher numbers.

    I don’t think women’s main problem is in avoiding men who have slept around, but rather being more willing to date men who haven’t. The ingredients that make up a monogamous, relationship-minded guy are pretty obvious. My female friends who have gone from single to committed (or married) had to first change which part of their brain they were using in order locate and appreciate less-aggressive Mr. Average Looks. IMO that’s much harder for women to do than turning down transparent Mr. Good Looks.

    Without getting into the ethical issues you’ve wisely avoided, another thing to ponder: Take a man who will sleep with a woman for any reason, and then walk away like nothing happened. How does this make him relationship-material? I suppose these days raw sexual experience is more important than the capacity for emotional intimacy. When I was single, I used to feel the stigma of not being very experienced with women. Such guys tend to be labeled desperate, unattractive, or gay. They couldn’t get women (plural), so they’d take any single woman who would have them. The idea that they’re waiting for the right woman to come along before jumping in the sack never seems to be considered, because of course all men have sex on the brain all the time. I’ve got guy friends still dealing with this stuff on the dating scene. It takes a lot of courage to overcome these kinds of nasty stereotypes.

    Also… Happy New Year!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      Happy New Year, so good to see you!

      I suppose the logical question is, what number makes a man promiscuous? My personal number is low relative to the median for men (5), but is 3 to 6 lifetime partners low? If so, most men (60%) by their own admission score pretty low. I kind of consider that normal, but I suppose what’s “normal” has been redefined to accomodate guys with much higher numbers.

      Good question. It’s one that comes up all the time when talking about women – how many sexual partners makes a woman a slut? I tend to think of promiscuity as more of an attitude, but clearly experience must play a role.

      OK, I’ve gone to the study and read the fine print. The cutoff was between 5 and 6 partners for men, reflecting a “Precipitous drop off” in the number of men who had more than 5 partners. It is also noted that the results were slightly skewed by a few subjects of each sex who had more than 45 partners.

      http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/webdocs/affectiveshift.pdf

      I suppose these days raw sexual experience is more important than the capacity for emotional intimacy.

      Sadly, this is true for many. But there must be an upper limit. What is the percentage of people who will not be thoroughly disgusted by a sex partner count of 45? It signifies so much about personality, temperament and character that only an absolute fool or mentally troubled individual would consider such a person “relationship material.”

  • Butterfly Flower

    Having spent some time in Silly Valley, I think I can speak with some modest authority that the people “the future belongs to” are guys with technical acumen paired with a brilliant understanding of people (both their markets/users at large and the competitors they have to outsmart). Whether they have the time or skills to bang women, they have an ability to address the needs and egos of people that that raises them far above your average reactive beta.

    What you’re talking about is Social IQ.

    My father is a successful self-made businessman. He falls under the umbrella of “Alpha” in the sense that he’s a confident, charismatic individual. Although those traits are often used for darker, less productive purposes [i.e. manwhoring] – that doesn’t make them negative. Alphas with integrity are successful.

    I’ve crashed enough of my father’s business-meetings to know “shmoozing” investors & clients is an important activity within the business-world. I’ve met many intelligent, well-educated businessmen who are extraordinarily unlikeable. They are usually unable to convince my father to invest in whatever business-thingy they’re peddling.

    CEO’s need to be charismatic as well, since from what I understand [which I’ll admit, isn’t much], technically they work for their shareholders. Like, my father goes to meetings and votes on corporation-stuff. An unlikeable CEO might not be able to sway shareholders.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “Researcher Kathleen Bogle has said that although hookups turn into relationships only 12% of the time, they are the only pathway to relationships in college.”

    You’ve mentioned this a couple of times in other discussions, but it doesn’t seem to compute. If hooking up can be just kissing, and that’s how many couples begin to develop intimacy, is it really accurate to call making out hooking up?

    I’ve yet to see a large-scale national survey asking the question “How did you meet your partner/spouse?” My guess is that an extremely low % of people end up in a relationship with someone they had random hookup sex with while drunk.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If hooking up can be just kissing, and that’s how many couples begin to develop intimacy, is it really accurate to call making out hooking up?

      The vagueness of the term is deliberate. I often hear young women attempt to qualify it. For example, they will say, “Ashley hooked up with Tyler last night!” referring to a makeout session on the dance floor. It may also mean Ashley went home with Tyler and had sex. Sometimes they’ll ask for clarification. “Did they hook up hook up?”

      This phenomenon has been studied by researchers – it’s thought that the term may afford some semblance of privacy as well as plausible deniability.

      ’ve yet to see a large-scale national survey asking the question “How did you meet your partner/spouse?” My guess is that an extremely low % of people end up in a relationship with someone they had random hookup sex with while drunk.

      I’ve seen that information for the whole population, not just college students, and I recall the order was as follows:

      1. School
      2. work
      3. friends of friends
      4. random encounters

      Note: in this case I think #4 means “met in the line at Starbucks” rather than a random hookup.

      For college kids, Bogle found that relationships were scarce, and that nearly all began with physical intimacy of some kind while the two parties were not yet well acquainted.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    As I said, I have no interest in convincing men that women feel repulsed by a high bodycount. Some do, some don’t, IME.

    Some theoretically do, in their forebrains. Very few operationally do, in what they actually choose. Lesser alphas definitely will, in large percentages, turn down a hot but they’ve learned promiscuous 8 in favor of a good girl, sexually hungry but also relationship wanting 7.5. Girls will rarely in actual fact make the same choice. They may talk among themselves about doing so though.

    Hm. When I think about my friends, I have to conclude that this is largely false. Two of my best friends in college dated very nerdy, mostly inexperienced guys (one had a partner count of less than 3, though I’m not sure of the exact number, and the other was a virgin). One friend dated and was engaged to a guy who was a virgin when they met. And, as you probably know, my own BF was a virgin when we got together. I don’t know if all of these cases were intentional, but you seem to be arguing that most girls will seek out sexually experienced guys. I haven’t seen this. And it’s not just a NAWALT, I really think it could be split 50/50 or something. And I am happy to be dating someone who was inexperienced, don’t as me why but it was really important to me that I lost my virginity to a virgin.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      you seem to be arguing that most girls will seek out sexually experienced guys. I haven’t seen this. And it’s not just a NAWALT, I really think it could be split 50/50 or something.

      I’ll argue for 20/80. That 20% is highly visible, and plentiful enough to keep players in poon, but it’s erroneous to extrapolate from that group. Female apex fallacy?

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Wait, Doug is trying to argue that the anti-prostitution camp (the vast majority of, you know, normal people) has bought into feminist/Christian dogma? *Facepalm*

    So how many men here would date and/or marry a former prostitute?

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com/ LeapofaBeta

    Olive,
    Your first mistake was reading a Doug post. I don’t know what it is about his posts here at HUS, but they make less sense or are less well thought out than his posts elsewhere.

    But no, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t touch an ex prostitute. I like my body parts to not fall off from disease.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Your first mistake was reading a Doug post. I don’t know what it is about his posts here at HUS, but they make less sense or are less well thought out than his posts elsewhere.

      Maybe because we’re the only ones who challenge his claims, revealing his muddy thinking.

      I’ve come to see Doug as a hapless sort of Robin Hood with a cadre of Merry Men, young cads who live to steal whatever they can from women. He and his protoges love gathering round to open their sacks and see who got what spoils – a 7.863, a 9.041.

      “We few, we happy few, we band of asshats…”

  • JQ

    @ Susan:

    Now that Megaman mentions it, the 12% conversion rate you cited at 245 is interesting as a basis for examining upper bounds on expected numbers of sex partners.

    Assuming each hookup is independent in the statistical sense* for the typical SMP participant** in search of a relationship, then for someone seeking a relationship out of a hookup their probability of success can be modeled as a geometric distribution and the mean number of hookups for a person to enter a relationship is 8 1/3 with a median of 5.42 [1]. So while half of market participants find a relationship with five or fewer hookups, each expect to need eight to nine for each relationship***.

    By this logic, a man or woman with an “average” success in the SMP at converting hookups to relationships even twice in college will have about 16 hookups by graduation. Given the way Susan reports the definition of hookup used to generate the 12% figure, this means on one end there could be a virgin with 16 make-out partners and on the other a sexually experienced individual with 16 sex partners.

    Again, this is an upper bound with some serious simplifying assumptions (see the footnotes). How much these assumptions impact the analysis I can’t say due to lack of data. But if we take seriously that hooking up is the only real**** game in town, it puts some perspective on what counts as reasonable vis-a-vis body count–namely that if 25% of hookups as defined above involve sex, our hypothetical two LTR SMP participant is expected to have had four sex partners and made out with 12 other people in college alone by graduation.

    ENDNOTES:

    *Namely, one hookup does not affect subsequent ones and partner order does not matter. I’m also going to for simplicity assume unique hookup partners as a simplifying assumption, e.g. that “booty calls” with a previous hookup partner do not count towards the total or impact the distribution. I merely put 0.12 as the probability of success into the formulas in the left hand column of the summary formula table given in [1].

    **Please let this be my acknowledgment that there are any number of assumptions buried in the concept of “typical SMP participant”.

    ***Assuming the dynamics work the same for each subsequent relationship and a participant assumes a pure strategy of using hookups to establish relationships and “resetting” the counter between relationships. By resetting I mean that hookups prior to the last relationship start do not effect the search for the next LTR partner. Clearly this is not true, but if we assume hookups are the least effective way to get into an LTR, then the analysis forms an upper bound on reasonable numbers of sex partners for a college-aged SMP participant.

    ****Namely that any other strategy is significantly more likely to fail.

    REFERENCES

    [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_distribution — Turns out Wikipedia is actually really good for this sort of thing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JQ

      Precisely. You can see how difficult it is for researchers to study this phenomenon. More recently, attempts have been made to do an end run around the term “hook up.” For example, in the 2007 Dept. of Justice study, they went with “sex,” explicitly defined as oral, anal or vaginal. The numbers were much lower than studies that simply ask participants about hookup partners.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    “Johny Depp is about as Alpha as one gets.

    Every girl i know swoons over him.”

    Uh, no. I don’t. I find him repulsive, actually.

    Yeah I’m not a fan either. Much to the disdain of most of my friends, Pirates puts me to sleep (like, I actually fell asleep in the theater when I saw the second one, didn’t bother with the third). Orlando Bloom is also exceedingly lame, though I’ll admit he made a cute elf in LOTR.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Olive
    Orlando Bloom is also exceedingly lame, though I’ll admit he made a cute elf in LOTR.

    I’ve never liked him and never understood his appeal. I admit, however, that when I saw him in real life several years ago–during the premiere of The Return of the King–I was stunned at how good looking he actually was. I never expected it . . .

    Just because I always tell people this when we’re discussing Bloom . . . Some time after the LotR madness died down a bit, I developed a crush on Tobias Menzies (whom none of my friends think is attractive at all, but who has some other female fans). Bloom and Menzies both appear in one Midsomer Murders episode, in which Bloom is the town lothario, having affairs with all the married women, and Menzies is his unattractive best friend who can’t get a girlfriend. I remember sitting through the whole thing wondering why on earth the director hadn’t reversed their roles.

  • Anna

    Even if girls on here don’t find Orlando Bloom attractive (madness!), I think he must qualify as an alpha. From what I’ve seen of him (quite a lot, I was dedicated through my teens), he is not only handsome, able to get the most attractive women, wealthy and famous – he is quite confident, charismatic and a guy other guys look up to (not saying fans, but the other guys in the “fellowship”). He was much hotter before he cut his hair though, but I don’t think you ‘get rid’ of alpha status that easily.

  • Butterfly Flower

    And I am happy to be dating someone who was inexperienced, don’t as me why but it was really important to me that I lost my virginity to a virgin.

    Same. When I was single, I wasn’t comfortable with the thought of dating a man who wasn’t a virgin. I was realistic – I didn’t expect the men I was pursuing to be virgins [I would flirt with older guys]. However; I wasn’t intentionally seeking out “experienced” men.

    I found my fiance’s virginity extremely attractive. I think it’s rather presumptuous for anyone to claim all women are repulsed by male virginity. Olive and I definitely aren’t the only girls in the world who value male virginity.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Orlando & Johnny:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh7qzDJG94M

    Willy Wonka?
    Johnny Wanker.

    :)

  • lovelost

    @Badger #336
    The fact that Gates holds court with, and dominates,

    The word court together with Bill G conjures up a different memory. Recollect Anti-trust. No beta CEO would have survived it.

  • lovelost

    @Badger #336
    Having spent some time in Silly Valley, I think I can speak with some modest authority that the people “the future belongs to” are guys with technical acumen paired with a brilliant understanding of people (both their markets/users at large and the competitors they have to outsmart).

    You couldn’t have phrased it better. “the future belongs to” you’re again hitting at the same point, I see so much of opportunity for myself to grow at work, that I wish the day was longer than 24hours.

    Whether they have the time or skills to bang women, they have an ability to address the needs and egos of people that that raises them far above your average reactive beta.

    needs and egos, I have been fortunate to meet 3 Nobel Laureates, at conference. they are the VIP in the room, what struck me on all 3 occassions is their humility and humbleness. They don’t suffer from entitlements issues like women in the SMP. But they are Super Super alphas in their domain. Women in SMP might be able to learn some of these personality traits. Having said that giving advice to women these days is a risky affair too.

  • lovelost

    @Badger #337
    It sounds trite but I think you can derive more benefit from the SMP than you think.

    I am, in fact I am using the CH evolutionary psychology, awareness from HUS and Badger, to really map how a women on team with me is reacting to information. How I can tailor the information that she gets the message, even though in my company there are not many cute women around.
    One of thing I have noticed and now I do it by habit, is the Principle of Least Interest. Sorry to say it works like a charm. Simple example from Thursday, one of the girls on the project was late for meeting, 5mins, only, during the meeting I made it point not to even look at her and not pay attention when she gave her feedback. She apologised after the meeting, me without even nudging her. I am putting this in very simple words, but I hope you get the message. In short I treated her like shit and she responds. And she is college educated. Thanks CH, HUS, Badger and MRA. This is awesome.

    Maintaining poise, calm and absolute indifference to a women, really kicks her attraction triggers. Quite obviously you do the opposite with your men colleagues.

    At the very least, don’t be a stranger around my blog

    No worries, on that. :)

  • Butterfly Flower

    Didn’t a young Bill Gates hook-up with Christine Comaford?

    There’s actually a chapter in her autobiography titled: “Attempting World Domination in Bill Gate’s Bedroom”.

    Long story short: Bill pumps and dumps her.

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    @Olive at 341

    I agree that there are lots of women who are not after experienced men necessarily. It is just realistic to not expect a man to be a virgin past his teens.

    @ Anna
    I really don’t get it..Orlando Bloom and Johnny Depp are not exactly the perfect examples of masculinity…and yet there is something about them that gets women everywhere swooning…

    Hvordan har du det?
    I spend a lot of time in Oslo…might I be correct in saying that the hook up culture there is way beyond even USA or UK? Has it always been like this?
    It’s frightening…

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Susan,
    Yes I’ve wondered this. But the guys around here seem to yell and shout when stuff like that is said, so I’ve stopped. But really. I know some girls who would be weirded out by a virgin (and I am not one of them), but I think most of them would be equally weirded out by Mr. I’ve Banged 200 Women Yohami (I mean that in the most endearing way possible, Yohami :-P). Nothing against him, I just think it’s not what a lot of relationship minded girls are actively seeking, even in their hindbrains.

    On the other hand, what about those 200 girls? Do they fall in the 20%? Does Yohami just make them think he’s relationship minded? (That scoundrel). I think every guy has his own style, so that accounts for some of it. But most women I know would not be excited about a guy if they knew he had 20 past partners, much less 200.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      Yes I’ve wondered this. But the guys around here seem to yell and shout when stuff like that is said, so I’ve stopped.

      Gah! Don’t let yourself be shouted down. The men who would do that are invested in marketing their own slutty ways as a plus for women.

      I would be interested to hear one positive thing that a man with a high bodycount can offer a woman.

      Here are the negatives, as I see them:

      STDs
      Desire for multiple sexual partners
      Narcissistic personality
      Incapable of emotional intimacy
      Lack of relationship skills, including ability to compromise, empathize and share
      Inability to demonstrate (feel?) love and affection
      Cynicism about life in general, and women in particular

      Only a self-destructive or insane person would choose such a man. Are all women self-destructive and insane? Some here would say yes.

  • Doug1

    Susan, Anna—

    @ Anna
    I really don’t get it..Orlando Bloom and Johnny Depp are not exactly the perfect examples of masculinity…and yet there is something about them that gets women everywhere swooning…

    They’re examples of classic arty, poetic type alphas, esp. Johnny Depp is. Dandies at various times and places also fit roughly into this sphere, as to many/most rock starts – but not rap stars. Think Lord Byron. The opposite sort of alpha from e.g. Russell Crowe, who though not very good looking really, nonetheless exudes confidant masculine leadership of men, and hence women.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    I’m choosing to respond to fewer comments. I’m not sure what you are referring to here …

    This one:

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/01/06/hookinguprealities/the-sexual-double-standard-cuts-both-ways/comment-page-2/#comment-88836

  • Dinkney Pawson

    The Sexual Double Standard

    Damned if she do, damned if he don’t.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Susan,
    I mean, I think we have to be careful about throwing all men with high body counts into the same category. The context is important. For example, I have never asked him and don’t plan to, but I have a feeling my dad had a pretty high body count, just judging from the ridiculous stories he’s told me about his high school/college lifestyle (he was student council president, went to Yale, had a bunch of girlfriends, yadda yadda). He also got married at 32, and I doubt he was celibate in his 20s (though I don’t want to think about it too much, ew). Meanwhile, my mom’s total body count is 1 (and since there’s only one way I was created, you can guess who that was). My dad’s a weird man in many ways, but I don’t think he’s incapable of emotional intimacy, and he has a good relationship with his kids. And he’s never cheated, I feel very sure about that.

    Having said that, I don’t think many women prefer guys with high body counts, which was Doug’s original claim (he called it “sexual experience”). Guys with high body counts get more girls because that’s what their good at, but it doesn’t mean women think their better off dating men with promiscuous pasts. We have to be careful about correlation-causation, and I think Doug often makes the mistake of assuming one equals the other.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    “you seem to be arguing that most girls will seek out sexually experienced guys. I haven’t seen this. And it’s not just a NAWALT, I really think it could be split 50/50 or something.”

    I’ll argue for 20/80. That 20% is highly visible, and plentiful enough to keep players in poon, but it’s erroneous to extrapolate from that group. Female apex fallacy?

    Saying that 80% of cute and hot women are turned off by alpha guys with a good lot of sexual experience is in my experience absolutely absurd, and nothing more than HUS propaganda.

    First of all from the point of view of most guys middle beta on up, the only girls they care about paying attention to what they’re doing or want to do are cute 6’s on up. As for the 35% or so of women who are 4’s on down, who cares? 5’s meh. Well maybe some middle betas are attracted to 5’s as well, seems logical, but at least among guys who show up at sites which talk any game at all (here I’d be including Dalrock for example), they seem to only want 6’s on up. The fervent hope of learning game is about avoiding the fate of having to settle for 5’s on down. Maybe that’s in part due to the American girl obesity epidemic, which mostly hits girls who started out 5’s and below it seems, making actual slim 5’s scarcer than they should be? Dunno. Obesity is actually fairly rare among mid thirties and younger white and E. Asian women in Manhattan, and most well off older ones as well. I think we definitely also get more than our fair share of girls who are 7’s and above.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Saying that 80% of cute and hot women are turned off by alpha guys with a good lot of sexual experience is in my experience absolutely absurd, and nothing more than HUS propaganda.

      Olive didn’t say “turned off by,” she said, “seek out.” Big difference.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Doug has officially reduced women to their PUA ratings. I know it’s important, but really. If you judge a book by its cover, you can’t complain when the book turns out to be two pages long. I know, I know, “male sexuality” and all that, but come now. Intelligent, sweet 5s or 6s can’t compete with shallow 9s? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If you invest in a girl who spends all her time focused and relying on her looks, chances are you haven’t invested in a quality girl.

  • Doug1

    Olive—

    Having said that, I don’t think many women prefer guys with high body counts, which was Doug’s original claim (he called it “sexual experience”). Guys with high body counts get more girls because that’s what their good at, but it doesn’t mean women think their better off dating men with promiscuous pasts. We have to be careful about correlation-causation, and I think Doug often makes the mistake of assuming one equals the other.

    No I don’t do the later. I’ve been well aware of the difference between causation and correlation since I don’t know, maybe middle school. It’s often hard to tease them apart in the social sciences however.

    I don’t think many girls think about a guy’s partner count much, and I definitely don’t think many turn down guys for reasons of having a pretty high one. Girls looking for relationships, which is most girls especially as they get further into their 20’s, definitely do care if a guy has cheated a lot. They do care if it seems like he is interested in settling down, versus just pumping and dumping. Most are wary of being pumped and dumped after a while of observing that phenomenon either through their own experience or that of girlfriends.

    I also agree that girls aren’t attracted to guys with high partner counts because they have them, but rather as you say because guys who have them with cute girls on up have to be good with girls. They ARE attracted to social proof. They do care about the hottest girls a guy can attract, particularly if they’re that hot themselves. (There is an intimidation factor if the hottest girl a guy has gotten is say two SMV’s higher than the girl herself – it suggest consciously or subconsciously to the girl that though she might bed him, she won’t be able to keep him.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      They do care if it seems like he is interested in settling down, versus just pumping and dumping.

      If a man has a high body count, then settling down is a shift in his priorities, obviously. This can happen, as Olive described with her own parents. But a man with that high body count is a risky relationship prospect, as his relationship skills are untested at best, non-existent at worst.

      Also, in the generation since Olive’s parents met, the definition of “high number” has shifted a lot. 2% of males are over 25 before they even get out of college.

  • Doug1

    Olive and especially Susan are trying to make the tautological claim that girls aren’t attracted to alphas, or at least alphas with high partner counts. It’s tautological because alpha as I, Roissy, Roosh, Dalrock, and pretty much the rest of the game aware and evo psych sphere use the term, is defined as guys who can quite quickly and easily attract cute and hot girls for sex. That which is tautological is absurd. As well, to look at the same thing from a slightly different angle, how did alphas get those high partner counts among cute and hot girls, without lots of such girls being sexually attracted to them regardless of their partner counts?

    Now there are alphas who don’t in fact have large partner counts, but in this SMP, there aren’t many. There is wide variation in just how high though. Most alphas don’t have counts in the 100’s for example. Many guys go through a high turnover stage and then much more settle down. Most alphas don’t make a PUA hobby out of racking up the largest counts they can, which generally means male 8’s and 9’s going after lots of 7’s and 6’s. I’ve rarely made a fetish of racking up large numbers, though I’m not gonna say I never did. It seems to be mostly guys who are working on upping their SMV by practicing game who try to do that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s tautological because alpha as I, Roissy, Roosh, Dalrock, and pretty much the rest of the game aware and evo psych sphere use the term, is defined as guys who can quite quickly and easily attract cute and hot girls for sex.

      This is hilarious.

      As well, to look at the same thing from a slightly different angle, how did alphas get those high partner counts among cute and hot girls, without lots of such girls being sexually attracted to them regardless of their partner counts?

      Forget cute and hot, you can’t prove it. No one is taking your word for it. Furthermore, a stripper may be cute and hot, but she likely has a very different set of personality traits than readers here. I don’t deny that women who sell their bodies have no objection to men with high partner counts.

      As for racking up high partner counts, all men start with 1 and go from there. I believe that there is some point at which a man becomes repellent. Will he still get women to have sex with him? Of course, but he’ll be scraping for hired guns like strippers, bar sluts, etc.

      Now there are alphas who don’t in fact have large partner counts, but in this SMP, there aren’t many.

      Which is why women who wish to marry and have children should avoid them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Here are two common claims among players on Game blogs:

      1. Players use Game to bang the hottest chicks. There is no such thing as a good girl, I get with the hottest, sweetest virgins all the time.

      2. Female hypergamy is rampant. What’s happening in the SMP is that women in the under 7 range aim high and snag a good looking dude for one night. Always ask a woman how hot the last guy that committed to her is. Ugly chicks can get with players for one night, but that’s it.

      There is only one solution to this puzzle. :)

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Girls looking for relationships, which is most girls especially as they get further into their 20’s, definitely do care if a guy has cheated a lot. They do care if it seems like he is interested in settling down, versus just pumping and dumping. Most are wary of being pumped and dumped after a while of observing that phenomenon either through their own experience or that of girlfriends.

    And those are characteristics of the cads, unfortunately. Check FFY. I know he gets the major ladies, but I would stay the hell away. I think most of my college friends would too (though not all of them). IMO, he’s attracting a very distinct type of lady.

    They ARE attracted to social proof.

    Right, but social proof doesn’t require a high body count. Plenty of men with high social proof don’t get it in with a new girl every weekend.

    They do care about the hottest girls a guy can attract, particularly if they’re that hot themselves.

    I haven’t seen this.

    There is an intimidation factor if the hottest girl a guy has gotten is say two SMV’s higher than the girl herself – it suggest consciously or subconsciously to the girl that though she might bed him, she won’t be able to keep him.)

    I have seen this. It’s not that a girl wants to make sure her man hasn’t slept with anyone ugly, it’s that she wants to make sure he hasn’t slept with anyone hotter than her, because she’s worried he might go back.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    alpha as I, Roissy, Roosh, Dalrock, and pretty much the rest of the game aware and evo psych sphere use the term, is defined as guys who can quite quickly and easily attract cute and hot girls for sex.

    Is this how Badger defines it? Or Athol Kay? How about Yohami? Last I checked, alpha was something much bigger. If this is all it was, there’d be no reason for a married guy to employ game tactics. It’s about introspection, a changed mindset, self-improvement.

    In any case, you’re doing it again Doug. Writing off my comments as absurd, trying to put me and Susan in the Team Woman camp, making this girls vs. boys. Maintaining a pompous frame. That’s what made HUS horrible for the last two weeks, it’s what drove the regulars away. I’m going back to my old stance, which was to not engage you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      trying to put me and Susan in the Team Woman camp, making this girls vs. boys. Maintaining a pompous frame. That’s what made HUS horrible for the last two weeks, it’s what drove the regulars away. I’m going back to my old stance, which was to not engage you.

      I’m with you Olive. It’s a beautiful day and Mr. HUS and I are headed out for a long walk. I have no plans to engage with Doug further.

  • Höllenhund

    „What are some strategies for women to weed out men who have had many partners? How can you tell?”

    Very easy. If you find yourself instantly attracted to him, he almost certainly had many partners for the simple reason that many other women have felt that way before.

  • BSD

    I used to be cool, then I made an arrow to the knee joke.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Bellita,
    So interesting that you saw Orlando in person! I’m pretty picky about attractive actors to be honest, but I looked up Tobias Menzies (I knew I knew him from somewhere… Persuasion!). Quite a cutie. Also I really like Viggo Mortensen… he’s more rugged, not as “beautiful” as Orlando, but there’s something about him I find more appealing than Orlando and Johnny Depp.

    But my favorite, by far, is Jake Gyllenhaal. I adored him when I was about 12 and saw him in October Sky, before he had all the stubble. Plus his acting is great in that movie. I watch it now, more than 10 years later, and still drool. SO attractive.

  • Doug1

    Furthermore, a stripper may be cute and hot, but she likely has a very different set of personality traits than readers here.

    She was way over cute, she was hot. She was a graduate of a good college and after a couple of years in NYC, got into and went off to a good law school. She didn’t come to Manhattan to be a stripper but rather to participate in the bohemian arty lifestyle. She found it hard to make ends meet waitressing, without having to commute in from shadier and not so fun parts of the city. As it was she was living with a roommate in a shadier, but artsy part of the lower east side before she moved in with me. That enabled her to save lots of money, and spend less time stripping, but she didn’t stop it. She enjoyed it.

  • Doug1

    She switched to mostly stripping in the daytime, which was less lucrative, so that we could spend more time together, go to functions, etc. She told people I introduced her to that she was a grad student at Columbia. One of her stripper friends actually was that.

  • GudEnuf

    “It’s tautological because alpha as I, Roissy, Roosh, Dalrock, and pretty much the rest of the game aware and evo psych sphere use the term, is defined as guys who can quite quickly and easily attract cute and hot girls for sex.”

    It’s people like you who give evo-psych a bad name. An evo-pysch scientist wouldn’t be caught dead using alpha/beta to apply to humans. That term was co-opted by PUA’s and has lost much of it’s original meaning.

    PUAs in general tend to cherry-pick evo-psych research. They’ll tell you about how alpha males will use dominance techniques to keep a harem of females for themselves. But they won’t tell you about how alpha females will fight off other females in order to keep the best males to themselves.

    For example in many primate societies a desirable male will have children with multiple females. This causes him to divide his parenting between multiple families. The alpha female wants the her baby-daddy to only invest parental resources in her children, not the other females’. So she will kill off all of the babies he had with other females. Now he will only take care of her children.

    Another thing PUA’s won’t tell you is that there are situations in which female primates will have sex with EVERY male in the tribe. The reason she will do this is so that when she has a baby, every male will have reason to believe the child is his. By sleeping around, she hedges her bets.

    So you see, aggression and promiscuity can successful female strategies. PUAs will tell you that aggression and promiscuity are inherently masculine, but the truth is more complicated. It would behoove us to read evo-psych published by real academics, and not the mangled garbage you find on PUA blogs.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      Another thing PUA’s won’t tell you is that there are situations in which female primates will have sex with EVERY male in the tribe.

      Here’s a biggie: Those beta males who stayed behind to guard the women and children while the alphas went off to hunt? They got laid like crazy.

      From a prior post of mine:

      Scientists are now finding that even the most successful alphas are often out-reproduced by lower-ranking males who have taken up “alternative strategies” to tribe life. Modern primatology has uncovered surprisingly strong reproductive rates among male baboons who have dropped out of the male-male nonsense altogether.

      What’s going on? I turns out that these “highly affiliated nice guys spend the bulk of their time hanging out with the females, picking bugs out of each other’s fur and playing with the kids.” When Alpha isn’t looking, they sneak off and have sex. Sapolsky believes that this baboon behavior has enormous implications for human love affairs. In humans, as in other primates, there is enormous female choice in mate selection.

      Female choice is built around male-female affiliation rather than the outcome of male-male aggression. It’s this totally bizarre discovery that females like to hang out with guys who are nice to them. The males having gal-pal sex aren’t just ineffectual branch potatoes. Often they are animals who have made it some distance up the baboon ladder–even in some cases all the way to the alpha position–and then had something like a revelation. They’ve won a few fights, looked around, and decided that the hypercompetitive hierarchy thing just isn’t for them. They downshift. They make a lifestyle change. Their overall health improves immensely, they make some friends, and they have a better chance of knowing who their kids are.

      Sapolsky believes that the ability of these “nice guys” to walk away from conflict is correlated to higher development in the cerebral frontal cortex, which allows them greater impulse control. Among the more dominant baboon males, less impulse control often becomes a problem.

      Most baboons can make basic strategy but lack the patience to execute. They just can’t prevent themselves from leaping out and doing some dumb-ass thing that blows their whole plan.

      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/12/14/relationshipstrategies/are-alpha-males-struggling-to-remain-relevant/

      Gotta love real science.

  • Sassy6519

    She was way over cute, she was hot. She was a graduate of a good college and after a couple of years in NYC, got into and went off to a good law school. She didn’t come to Manhattan to be a stripper but rather to participate in the bohemian arty lifestyle. She found it hard to make ends meet waitressing, without having to commute in from shadier and not so fun parts of the city. As it was she was living with a roommate in a shadier, but artsy part of the lower east side before she moved in with me. That enabled her to save lots of money, and spend less time stripping, but she didn’t stop it. She enjoyed it.

    Are we supposed to be in awe of her or something? Pardon me if my ability to give a fuck is broken today.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Sassy,
    I literally LOL’ed.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Olive

    Glad to be of service. :)

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Gudenuf,
    Fascinating stuff. This is particularly interesting:

    Another thing PUA’s won’t tell you is that there are situations in which female primates will have sex with EVERY male in the tribe. The reason she will do this is so that when she has a baby, every male will have reason to believe the child is his. By sleeping around, she hedges her bets.

    That seems like such a strange strategy. What if all the female primates catch on and start doing the same thing? In that case, it doesn’t seem very strategic.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan (regarding alphas)

    Yes, and you’re not allowed to mention it’s with easy, busted women.

    Just read through everything here. I’m not defending or siding with anyone here, but I’m probably not the first one here to point out that you really do seem to have an aversion to most, if not all things “alpha”. I wouldn’t say that alphas sleep with mostly “busted” women at all- that’s just not been what I’ve seen, and it seems like you’re just reaching with this comment.

    Let’s skip my anecdotal evidence altogether and go by your scale in your article “The Sexual Revolution and You” (http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/08/02/relationshipstrategies/the-sexual-revolution-and-you/) and categorize an alpha as a guy in the 8-10 range. According to that, women from 2 points lower are actively seeking him out, which means he’s presented with girls in the 6-8 (and higher) range all the time. Now, a girl’s rating is obviously somewhat subjective, but I don’t think 6 and above counts as “busted”.

    Really, Susan, I’m not trying to call you out, but you really seem to have a one-sided view of what alpha is, or at the very least you seem so suspect of it that you can’t go without disparaging the concept. I’ve already explained my concept of alpha and if you revisit you’ll find it focuses on different elements than what Doug1 and FFY are talking about. I just don’t get why you keep making the assertion that alphas sleep with hordes of below-average women when it doesn’t seem all that defensible and you don’t even seem to believe it in a logical sense, as demonstrated by your prior article. The comment I quoted just seemed like a common disqualification that a lot of women use when presented with an example of a player or alpha who is good with women. If that’s what it is, I’m fine with that and I know where that instinct comes from, but I think you need to be a bit more realistic about this whole “alpha” discussion.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BroHamlet

      . I’m not defending or siding with anyone here, but I’m probably not the first one here to point out that you really do seem to have an aversion to most, if not all things “alpha”.

      That depends entirely on your definition of alpha. I have a strong aversion to “alphas” like Doug, who spend their time ranking women on the 1-10 scale then trying to bang them, as if alpha is some 12-step Lothario plan. This is nothing new. Check out this post I wrote two years ago:

      Hate the Player, But Don’t Blame Game

      I am a big fan of Inner Game, or personal development of traits that will make a man happier and more successful in life, but I would argue that a true alpha is a man worthy of respect. A player is not worthy of respect, IMO.

      Now, a girl’s rating is obviously somewhat subjective, but I don’t think 6 and above counts as “busted”.

      Well, we don’t know, do we? We have tales but no pics. The better looking a girl is, the less likely she is to be promiscuous. A story about a “7” who lives with some shlub she despises, goes for a beer run to rawdog a guy in a playground for an hour while shlub waits, then returns to shlub – sorry, but that strains credulity. The bit about living with a loser is enough to suggest she couldn’t possibly have moderate to high SMV. Just as women are likely to underreport their sexual experiences, men are likely to overreport them, so I think you can generally take a male rating (of his own conquest) and take off at least a third if not more.

      So, let me make this perfectly clear, lest it show up as a blog post somewhere else:

      I reject alpha = player. I reject alpha = lots of lays.

      I’ve also talked at length about naturals vs. guys who learn Game, and how it’s very, very difficult to add beta character traits to a natural alpha (high T male). It’s much easier to add alpha dominance to a natural beta, which in my view makes the latter a much better bet for relationships.

  • Doug1

    Gudenuf–

    I’ve never thought what other primates do to be particularly revealing as to human behavior or potential human behavior. We broke off evolutionarily from our nearest primate relatives several million years ago, about 5 IIRC. Different primates behave in widely different ways. Bonobos behave quite differently sexually from chimpanzees, and gorillas quite differently from both.

  • Doug1

    Sassy–

    Are we supposed to be in awe of her or something?

    No, but Susan was trying to paint her as some lowlife I should be ashamed to have had as a gf for awhile (E.g. her “admit” comment.) She wasn’t, was my only point.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “He was much hotter before he cut his hair though, but I don’t think you ‘get rid’ of alpha status that easily.”

    Tell that to Samson. The femme fatale makes several appearances in the old testament, starting with Eve.

    “This phenomenon has been studied by researchers – it’s thought that the term may afford some semblance of privacy as well as plausible deniability.”

    I noticed this from the first appearance of the term, it simply designates “we did something sexual.” Kissing is sexual, as is fondling. Dancing is not, even though it is sensual and serves as a sort of pre-sexual foreplay.

    I think the point of Bogle’s 12% stat is that these are couples whose first expression of romantic interest was some kind of sexual encounter, not a date. It gets sketchy; a hookup with a classmate at a party that becomes a relationship is a hookup. A guy who asks a female acquaintance to a fraternity formal, then they get drunk and bang afterwards and become a couple, is a little less than a hookup, but not by much.

    As Susan has discovered from her sources, expressing interest in a relationship without being sexual first is a good way for a guy to get neither sex nor a relationship.

    “There is only one solution to this puzzle. ”

    Day game?

  • Rum

    Gudenuf

    One of the first concepts one must learn when entering the Roissy-sphere is that the goal is to make sense of the sexual market place in the USA over the last 20 years or so. The goal is not to use words the same way others are in the habit of using.
    So what if “alpha” means something different to a monkey scientist than Roissy intends? The English language has a drastic shortage of use-able words that accurately describe game concepts. The only solution, as for now, seems to be to bend and hammer the definition of a commonly used word until it more closely resembles the idea you have in mind. Thereafter, at least among those who know, the new meaning is signalled by the old word.
    A further problem is that the most people will never “get” the fundamental concepts of Roissy-game because the part of us that “gets” ideas really does not want to have to see the world as it appears when seen thru those kind of goggles. It is not a pleasant picture to comtemplate. Most of us would rather not have the picture be the way it appears. Thing is, guys were never asked about it. If those goggles did not work so well in helping its new owners avoid bad outcomes and provide for better ones we would not be having this conversation.

  • Rum

    The first mistake that gets made when thinking about the mating instincts of females is to suppose that the ability or the willingness of the male involved to provide “resources” to the famale is any sort of powerful factor in true gina tingles. Very, very few mammals get along with any resources or protection going from the sperm donor to the mom. The basic instincts driving female choosing assume that the mom will do the rest without him. It is all about the display of good male genes, not how nice a dad he would make because nice dads are very, very recent part of the picture and only are part of the picture when females/moms have no other way to survive without one. Beta-love is much more like a culturally instilled value than anything else. It is a weak and superficial appetite compared to the ancient hind-brain appetites.
    Just because women sometimes need something does not mean there are strong instincts driving them to want it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      The first mistake that gets made when thinking about the mating instincts of females is to suppose that the ability or the willingness of the male involved to provide “resources” to the famale is any sort of powerful factor in true gina tingles.

      This mistake is actually in conflating female short-term and long-term mating strategies. Gina tingles are a short-term trigger, though when present with other qualities, they may apply to LT mating as well. There are in fact more “beta” traits that are strong attraction triggers for women, including intelligence, diligence, ability to demonstrate love and affection, humor, ability to collaborate and others. Female sexuality is very complex, and women differ enormously in their triggers. Here’s an excerpt from a recent post:

      Women are more focused on emotional and psychological cues, which generate erotic stories suited for satisfying female appetites. Women respond to a truly astonishing range of cues across many domains. The physical appearance of a man, his social status, personality, commitment, the authenticity of his emotions, his confidence, family, attitude toward children, kindness, height and smell are all important to women.

      Unlike men, who become aroused after being exposed to a single cue, women need to experience enough simultaneous cues to cross an ever-varying threshold. Sometimes, just a few overwhelming cues can take a woman there. Other times, it takes a very large number of moderate cutes. For a man, a single cue is often sufficient, and sometimes necessary. For women, no single cue is either necessary or sufficient.

      Also, The Complex Algorithm of Female Attraction

      Ogas goes into the science, i.e., “the unconscious evaluation” of how attraction and arousal work in women, calling it “the source of feminine intuition.”

      “Using investigative skills, the female brain evaluates all available evidence regarding a potential mate’s social, emotional and physical qualities to make an all-important decision: Is he Mr. Right or Mr. Wrong?…Though the female brain carefully processes many stimuli simultaneously, it is experienced only as a general feeling of favorability or suspicion toward a potential partner. This feminine intuition is designed to solve a woman’s unique challenge of determining whether a man is committed, kind and capable of protecting a family.”

      I believe this is the greatest disservice being done to men who learn Game. The reduction of female sexuality to a one-trick pony – social dominance. It’s far more complex than that. As always, females are on a spectrum, and promiscuous women who frequent bars and drink heavily are most likely to give great, or even exclusive, weight to social dominance.

      All women respond to dominance, but there are infinite variations, and calibration is essential. Or you can just hit on “hired guns” as Mystery did, if that’s what you want. Remember, Mystery wrote Game to get a girlfriend who was a “hired gun” in a nightspot, and who was willing to engage in threesomes with another woman. I don’t believe he ever fulfilled that objective.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        Speaking of Mystery, I just read that James Franco is going to play him in a film version of The Game.

  • Emily

    >> “Doug has officially reduced women to their PUA ratings. I know it’s important, but really. If you judge a book by its cover, you can’t complain when the book turns out to be two pages long. I know, I know, “male sexuality” and all that, but come now. Intelligent, sweet 5s or 6s can’t compete with shallow 9s? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If you invest in a girl who spends all her time focused and relying on her looks, chances are you haven’t invested in a quality girl.”

    [*puts up flame shield*]

    The thing is as well, even though lots of guys complain about being completely invisible to women, girls with below average looks are also ignored in all of these discussions.

    By definition, half of the population has to be below average right? So what about the 5’s and under? Where do they fit into all of this?

    I’m not saying that the guys should all run out and date ugly chicks or anything, but the fact that they’re rarely even mentioned is noteworthy.

  • Tasmin

    It took me a while get through all of the posts. I think the double-standard can finally be summed up to this: Monkeys and Strippers. Regular people are like monkeys, sometimes. Sometimes strippers are like regular people. We reward people-like behaviors in monkeys and monkey-like behaviors in strippers yet we discourage monkey-like behaviors in regular people, except when it makes us hot.

    @Susan
    I think you have been particularly responsive, thoughtful, and quite patient throughout this post. The original cartoon is no doubt true, but then the research included here would suggest a tempering down of the old wink-wink father-to-son punch to the shoulder relative to his “success” with the opposite gender in favor of more balanced encouragement and fostering of socially power-positive traits, yes?

    In my experience as a young man I could sense that it gave my parents some brewing concern that I was not “successful” with the ladies through HS and early on in university. Part of it was likely due to this double standard and part was also due to the fact that I had all of the tools to be a regular ladykiller yet somehow it wasn’t happening that way. The closest my Dad ever came to the pat on the back was when he had said “I hope you are enjoying some of what you are studying” in reference to a pysch course on human sexuality. To which of course, *blush*, I changed the subject.

    And they undoubtedly had this double-standard on the table every night, as my sister – gregarious, thin, smart, and blond with an early and often bosom had tomcats circling the house from age 13 on. One of the interesting things to me was that I had also been indoctrinated into believing that sex was very serious business, premarital sex was not necessarily “wrong” but that it most likely wasn’t “good” either. And “Casual Sex” was just one more bad ’80’s movie, certainly not a phrase applied to or used by anyone under 25. I somehow firmly adopted the view that my value as a man, potential partner and future husband would be jeopardized if I took advantage of my god given attributes merely to cash in on sex. Throw in the discovery of AIDS and that one girl who got knocked up in HS and “ruined her life” and you’ve got a damned confusing environment in which to come of age.

    So while they kind of expected or hoped that I would make them “proud” in one sense (scoring ‘girlfriends’), my parents were also keen on the chaste, the responsibilities of being a man, and the future orientation in terms of the potential heavy “costs” of sex. As an early pragmatist and strategist, I took this to heart.

    But where they really dropped the ball IMO wasn’t in that strange double-standard, but it was in not helping me construct a foundation of personal generative power, in other words, teaching me more about how to develop my natural talents and gifts (sense of self) and how those are received in the ‘marketplace’ (image of self), how to be situationally dominate when and where appropriate (taking action) and that it is “ok” to have some dominance (taking responsibility) and most importantly how to translate all of this across gender lines (investing in relationships).

    Fast forward nearly 20 years and I am still learning much of this on the fly, largely due to those early formative years. I don’t blame my parents for a thing. But through my experience, I am keenly aware of how important it is to align our standards with reality and to send a consistent message.

    I suppose part of my red pill swallowing or whatever you call the process is accepting that my highly selective behaviors, my foregoing immediate gratification in favor of long-term provider strategies *may* still be worth something, but the fact that I kept my # low despite ample opportunities to do otherwise, is really more of a footnote in the eyes of women today. And even worse, it puts me in that unenviable position of nearly always having the lower # as well as trying to reconcile the questions of “if being selective and thus having a low number in a partner is somewhere between ‘worth something’ and ‘highly valued’, then why wasn’t it important to you when you were ‘with’ the other x# of men, most of which were certainly not ‘selective’ in their sexual pursuits. And why am I the first guy to bring this question/discussion up, and why if it is important to you in choosing a man did you want to chose me if you thought/assumed I had a high #?” This usually comes about in a variety of ways: they volunteer information about their wild days, college hookups, FWB, etc. and desire to “settle down”, I initiate the sexual history discussion; they make a comment about how I “must have been a manwhore” at some point – in a very approving tone, etc.

    So I am left with “why would I want to be with someone who would want to be with a manwhore?” The problem is, from what I have experienced, women prefer not to know a # (the “I have been a healthy, responsible, sexually active man for X years” will almost always suffice) or they assume a big number and hope for something less, or they mentally accept a big number because their own is getting kinda high and they expect the man to have bigger count. Which is why I firmly believe that moderate to low numbers for men is probably a nice thing to have for women, but rarely does it qualify/disqualify.

    While it would be nice to see the market as a whole place value on men who have shown restraint, selectivity, and delayed gratification, this is just not happening in a measurable way – nor is it likely to in my lifetime. I think this is no small part why men in my position are scrambling to get game, rack numbers, try to balance the scales. I don’t agree with that approach, but I can understand it and to be honest it is something I have considered. I sometimes think the only thing keeping me from that path is the fact that I am too old. I just don’t want to spend the time collecting notches because I would like to have kids some day and I just don’t see how that approach would be conducive. But what keeps me grounded is that I still value my selectivity, how I hold my intimacy is important and it is worth something to me, even if the ‘SMP’ does not agree.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      So I am left with “why would I want to be with someone who would want to be with a manwhore?” The problem is, from what I have experienced, women prefer not to know a # (the “I have been a healthy, responsible, sexually active man for X years” will almost always suffice) or they assume a big number and hope for something less, or they mentally accept a big number because their own is getting kinda high and they expect the man to have bigger count. Which is why I firmly believe that moderate to low numbers for men is probably a nice thing to have for women, but rarely does it qualify/disqualify.

      That is a very insightful analysis of how women think about the number, I think you nailed it. Many women will happily go along with “don’t ask, don’t tell” and promiscuous women know they’re looking for a guy with a high number.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Doug1 “The opposite sort of alpha from e.g. Russell Crowe, who though not very good looking really, nonetheless exudes confidant masculine leadership of men, and hence women.”

    I quite like Russell Crowe. I find him much better looking face-wise and more physically attractive than any of the celebrity pretty boys. Masculinity, confidence and leader of men qualities are what I dig. He did a good job portraying John Nash in A Beautiful Mind, and he actually pulled off the intellectual thing well. I really like the rugged warrior portrayals, too.

    Reading up on him some more, he has not divorced his wife, is a family man, loves animals, seems down-to-earth, etc. Supposedly when he was having a romance with Meg Ryan he wanted to marry her and have kids with her, and she was the one who dumped him. Personally, I vastly prefer the rugged manly man who can handle a gun and wants to be a family man, not the girly artsy guy who’s just a lady-killer.

    @Rum “Beta-love is much more like a culturally instilled value than anything else. It is a weak and superficial appetite compared to the ancient hind-brain appetites.”

    Culturally instilled values can be really quite powerful. Studies on epigenetics basically say that genes express themselves in different ways depending on the environment. If a woman has been brought up with certain values, she will internalize those values as if they were hindbrain, and even her arousal triggers can be rewired. In some circles it’s called sexual imprinting.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      Culturally instilled values can be really quite powerful. Studies on epigenetics basically say that genes express themselves in different ways depending on the environment. If a woman has been brought up with certain values, she will internalize those values as if they were hindbrain, and even her arousal triggers can be rewired. In some circles it’s called sexual imprinting.

      I’ve wondered aloud here a few times what the role of fathers might be in the formation of a woman’s triggers. I know at least one young woman who seeks a [beta] guy much like her dad :) This can’t be unusual.

      Also, I’ve gathered that many Asian women go for Caucasian beta guys. It’s true of my son’s gf, and it sounds like you did as well. This must have some cultural relevance re values or similarity to men in the woman’s family.

      Similarly, I know Roissy has written about the high testosterone daughters of alphas. They may be more likely to be promiscuous due to higher T levels, so they’d be more likely to be attracted to higher T guys. That’s a different path to finding a guy like dear old Dad, but interesting.

      I haven’t found any information on this – but I’m very curious about it.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    The thing is as well, even though lots of guys complain about being completely invisible to women, girls with below average looks are also ignored in all of these discussions.

    By definition, half of the population has to be below average right? So what about the 5′s and under? Where do they fit into all of this?

    Yes that’s the particularly frustrating part when you read some of this more PUA-oriented stuff. I can think of a few girls off the top of my head who have never had boyfriends, not because their standards are outrageously high, but because guys just aren’t into them. And to be honest, if I hadn’t gone out of my way to let the guys I liked know I was interested, I might have been one of those girls. I’m very shy and nerdy, I don’t think I register on the “beautiful girls” radar. If I were single, I’d need to do some serious work or else start approaching guys in my general SMV range again.

  • Rum

    Hope
    Good point about culture and up-bringing redirecting instincts. I accept that. I fact, I have suggested that successful societies in the past have made deliberate efforts to make beta traits feel like alpha traits to young women while draping alpha appearances over the average guy.
    But here is a problem. If a young womans up-bringing is more or less neutral in regard to the sort of guy she should “want”, which way will she most likely go?
    Or if beta traits are actively devalued if not ridiculed by the culture, what is the honest thing one should say to young men in that culture who want to get some of what they need?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      Or if beta traits are actively devalued if not ridiculed by the culture, what is the honest thing one should say to young men in that culture who want to get some of what they need?

      Good point, this is a serious problem. I read one article that said that this goes in cycles – the culture alternately vilifies “nice guys” and “meatheads.” Of course, it’s all caricature.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    @Emily

    The thing is as well, even though lots of guys complain about being completely invisible to women, girls with below average looks are also ignored in all of these discussions.

    By definition, half of the population has to be below average right? So what about the 5′s and under? Where do they fit into all of this?

    Sadly, that’s not quite it, though. If you were to ask, most men think most women are acceptably good-looking or better (but yeah, I know those claiming to be Alphas would also claim that they’re more discriminating than that). At the same time, most women think most men are indeed below average looking. We’ve had graphs posted here (sorry; perhaps someone has a link) that more or less establish that.

    [It’s true that I just compared apples to oranges. Men in the age group with which HUS is concerned are looking for sexual attractiveness and mostly the women are looking for something else. Dominance, perhaps.]

    But the point remains that even those women who think of themselves as “below average” in looks aren’t completely shut out of the market, because most of them aren’t considered that way by most men.

  • lovelost

    @Susan #378
    It’s a beautiful day and Mr. HUS and I are headed out for a long walk.

    How was the walk?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @lovelost

      How was the walk?

      Beautiful, thanks! It’s 59 degrees in Boston right now – crazy! I walked in a short-sleeved shirt.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Emily

    girls with below average looks are also ignored in all of these discussions.

    By definition, half of the population has to be below average right? So what about the 5′s and under? Where do they fit into all of this?

    I’m not saying that the guys should all run out and date ugly chicks or anything, but the fact that they’re rarely even mentioned is noteworthy.

    Actually, a “population” would take into account women of all ages, between 14 to 100+. Also, saying “half” of a data set is misleading. Men’s ratings of women do not necessarily follow a bell curve distribution for younger women.

    Virtually all women below 30, except those very few with deformities or disabilities, should be “above average” in mating value. Give me some 20-year-old “4,” and I bet you if she lost weight, dressed up a bit, put on some makeup and acted a bit more feminine, she’d transform into at least a “6” or more. She’d also be considered a “7” to a large number of older men.

    The things keeping young girls from being higher than “5” today are:

    1) Obesity epidemic. Being significantly overweight or obese drastically reduces a woman’s sexual value.

    2) Behavior. Being too picky, too superficial, too masculine in demeanor, too good for the men around her, going after the top guys instead of guys she can realistically get with, etc.

    3) General social conditions: feminism, sexual liberation, casual sex and promiscuity, unfair marriage laws, sexual harassment laws, shaming and denigration of masculinity, affirmative action, high unemployment rate, stagnant wages, and other things related to the high-tech world we now live in that can affect the market. A guy can live happily with video games and porn on a bachelor diet for years rather than suffer the indignities of the modern sexual market.

    That is not to say that lots of women are not struggling right now. But it does mean that there are lots of things within a woman’s ability to change.

    – Lose the excess weight
    – Exercise and eat right, learn how to cook
    – Wear figure-hugging but demure skirts and dresses
    – Be positive and kind, and have a good attitude
    – Flirt and show interest, and smile and laugh a lot
    – Look for relationship-oriented men who get overlooked by other women

    I’d also add “stop watching garbage TV” and “participate in guy hobbies,” but those are long-shots. I’m sure most guys here would consider themselves quite lucky to find a girl like I just described.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Brohamlet

    Really, Susan, I’m not trying to call you out, but you really seem to have a one-sided view of what alpha is, or at the very least you seem so suspect of it that you can’t go without disparaging the concept. I’ve already explained my concept of alpha and if you revisit you’ll find it focuses on different elements than what Doug1 and FFY are talking about. I just don’t get why you keep making the assertion that alphas sleep with hordes of below-average women when it doesn’t seem all that defensible and you don’t even seem to believe it in a logical sense, as demonstrated by your prior article. The comment I quoted just seemed like a common disqualification that a lot of women use when presented with an example of a player or alpha who is good with women. If that’s what it is, I’m fine with that and I know where that instinct comes from, but I think you need to be a bit more realistic about this whole “alpha” discussion.

    I think the real issue has to do with the type of women some Alphas claim to be good with. Coming in here and bragging about doing another man’s girlfriend on a slide or bragging about having a temporary druggie stripper girlfriend might score you some points with the male readership, but it makes the females here respect you less. That’s why I asked Doug1 if we were supposed to be in awe and aspire to his train wreck ex-girlfriend. We women don’t care about how supposedly hot the girl in question is. She’s a damn stripper. That’s not a high caliber of woman, no matter how much Doug may protest.

    A woman with any shred of respect or dignity in herself doesn’t get involved with any man easily, especially a horndog alpha. We screen those guys intensely and walk away often. Snagging the attention of a two-bit slut is easy. Some guys are coming in here and recounting stories of scoring bottles of bottom-shelf liquour, and they expect us to applaud them like it’s some great feat. Snag some really classy, high profile, well-mannered and educated top shelf women, and perhaps the women will have more respect for that.

  • Rum

    Emily
    The rating scale by which men see women is based on fixed values, not relative ones. A woman who is a 10 is a 10 even if she is in a room-full of 10s. A 5 does not look better if she is surrounded by 4s.
    There are lots of rooms where there are no 5s at all. Every guy would be delighted to find a place where there was only 10s. There would be no resentment of another guys good luck. It does not work like that.
    IOWs, the “average” woman somewhere is not necessarily a 5.
    I may seem pedantic but this is a non-trivial point.

  • Tasmin

    @Hope
    “A guy can live happily with video games and porn on a bachelor diet for years rather than suffer the indignities of the modern sexual market.”

    I’d take out ‘happily’, but otherwise, yup. And an important point to keep in mind is that there is a growing percentage of these men who are themselves acquiring new skills like learning to cook, improving their position outside of the SMP (careers, saving for retirement, starting a business, enjoying leisure time) and for many of these men, particularly those who can occasionally get some no-strings sex, the bar in terms of real relationship risk taking is rising in lock-step with the men’s ability to find/create alternatives, if not outright replacements, for what women would [traditionally] bring to the table. Which does not invalidate your bullet points in the least, but rather deems them all the more essential. The challenge is to get them into the marketplace ASAP.

    But this one,
    “- Look for relationship-oriented men who get overlooked by other women”
    Would require a sea change of epic proportions. I know it is possible and even happens, as I tend to look for the overlooked woman myself, but it requires a serious reorientation. And given that “giving up garbage TV” and “exercising” seem to be too challenging for most, that last one is a stretch. I dig it, but its a stretch. As usual, your comments are well suited to your name. Keep it coming. Rooting for the 1% to become the 2% is no waste of time in my book.

  • Charm

    @Susan

    I too think a lot of these game bloggers are lying about the women they are sleeping with. A bunch on betas wont tune in to hear about how you banged the average chick at the end of the bar. They all want to be sold the story of the HB9 with the perfect legs and pretty eyes. Where are these women? We all know that most American women are over weight, so by their admission unattractive and yet there is this magical place where all of these really attractive women go and only guys with game can get? Lol. I think someones lying.

    Like I said, I go to a large university and most of the girls here are really average. Even the prettier ones are a dime a dozen. What men have claimed to be “hot” I see to be normal. I think of VS models to be hot. Just last night there were hundreds of girls in high heels and short skirts walking past the window at my job going out to party. My male co-workers jaws were on the floor and every girl was normal looking, just dressed up.

    Ive also known a few strippers and let me tell you that they too are average. Though, if you’re in some really high class club maybe those ones look great but how many cities have top notch strip clubs in them? Its a bunch of average to below average men looking at average women in skimpy clothing and make up.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This thread has gotten derailed into a discussion of whether playas are having sex with hot women. (Hat tip: Doug) Who cares? It’s irrelevant to the post.

      The takeaway from this post, aside from my explaining my position on the SDS, is that a man who has had sex with a lot of different women begins to tire of a woman the moment he has sex with her for the first time. That’s it. It’s real, and it’s something that women should understand.

      All of us are better off with more information. I dish out lots of bad news here, but it’s necessary because it at least gives women a shot at making an informed choice. Sure, women may choose to get with a guy who’s going to quickly tire of her. Happens all the time. That’s not the point. The point is that if she knew better, and learned the hard way, she might make a better choice next time. And her friends might observe her mistake and learn from it as well. There may even be a handful of women who read it here and keep it in mind.

      People are much likelier to make good choices if they fully understand the pros and cons.

  • Rum

    Susan
    I do not disagree with your points. But keep in mind that sometimes short term triggers(aka raw desire for sex with a particular guy) often enough are non-congruent with long term attraction qualities. Do not have to be but often are in a given situation. (Like 21st century America) That is why guys these days are so hesitant to make a long term commitment without a LOT of certainty about the authenticity of the former.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      Fair point, and I don’t blame guys one bit.

  • Rum

    “classy, well educated, HIGH PROFILE women.”

    PROJECTION!!!!
    Women should just stop doing this. Gaining a “higher profile” might feel like fun but it as a way to make quality men want you more it is mostly a waste of time. Time in the gym is not.

  • Charm

    @ Sassy

    ” Snag some really classy, high profile, well-mannered and educated top shelf women, and perhaps the women will have more respect for that.”

    Wait these aren’t classy well-mannered highly selective women. They’re bitchy stuck up women who can’t get a man. How dare you not give that cad the time of day. Don’t you know who he is? Lol. That’s how they are described in game blogs. Why? Because this “alpha” can’t admit that he isn’t good enough. No man that full of himself is ever going to admit he can’t measure up to a highly selective woman. Its just not gonna happen. Like I said, people tune in for the fairy tales.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Rum

    What I’m saying is coming in here and bragging about banging a stripper doesn’t help a man’s cause. If you want to bang sluts, bang them until your heart is content. You will simply never get validation that they are high caliber women.

    Guys doing so will get the same amount of cred I would get if I came here and bragged about dating a hot guido drug dealer. How would doing that help my credibility?

  • Rum

    Would you rather that men lied to you about this?

  • Mike

    @ Olive / Yohami 360

    most of them would be equally weirded out by Mr. I’ve Banged 200 Women Yohami (I mean that in the most endearing way possible, Yohami :-P ).

    Yohami,

    Do the girls ever ask about your partner count? Are they vague and coy (like they don’t really want to know) or do they ask for a real solid number? What is their reaction to your answer in either case? Do you ever feel like lying about or fudging your number?

    I’ve always been vocal, especially to the fine women of Slutwalk to proudly own their number. It should hold true for guys too. If your partner wants a real number, if you can’t bring yourself to be honest or have to hamsterize the number, then don’t hold marches proclaiming how proud you are of being able to slut around.

    @Olive

    But the guys around here seem to yell and shout when stuff like that is said, so I’ve stopped. But really.

    It’s just that on here, you’re running into men that have seen and experienced women who say one thing “Oh i’d never sleep with that asshole” and then witness them go home with said asshole. It may not be that way where you live, but i have witnessed that and been the recipient of that first hand. Our experiences define our reality.

    And my reality tells me that women can smell sexual inexperience and avoid it. And just because lack of sex experience/virgin = bad in bed, because some women enjoy robbing the cradle, but because lack of sex experience/virgin usually collaborates with low confidence and dominance.

    Just my .02

  • Sassy6519

    I have a question for all the guys here. Perhaps it will shed some light on how the male brain works.

    Who would you rather date (not bang only, but date)
    – A hot stripper
    -A hot lawyer

  • Mike

    @Susan 397

    Those beta males who stayed behind to guard the women and children while the alphas went off to hunt? They got laid like crazy.

    Really? F*ck, i must be in the wrong tribe…

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Mike,

    Do the girls ever ask about your partner count? Are they vague and coy (like they don’t really want to know) or do they ask for a real solid number? What is their reaction to your answer in either case? Do you ever feel like lying about or fudging your number?

    If I get asked I say its in the millions.

    Whenever they tell me their number I tell them they are practically virgins.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Yohami

    Interesting. Why don’t you tell them the truth?

  • Malia

    As I’ve said many times now, I have no problem with men refusing to marry or leaving the U.S. to marry elsewhere. To each his own – love is hard to find, and I wouldn’t deny anyone the right to seek it where they can. But I’m not going to be a soapbox for that agenda. As you say, I am working to help American women find partners, and that is a two-pronged effort: being worthy of marriage, and selecting worthy men.

    I find it odd that you think that it’s entirely possible to have this great divide among women (sluts and non sluts) without a lot of men deciding the entire lot is tainted and avoiding it altogether.

    Your mission is implausible because you’re breeding a level of content, and mistreatment, for a group of women, in the midst of admittedly blurry lines as to what defines that “type” of woman. thus, by extension, you’re categorically breeding mistrust for women.

    I found it interesting (scratch that, amusing) that on page 1, the way Anna was treated but I won’t get into that only to say that a guy uttered a moronic statement (that could be taken many ways) yet she was chastised for rewarding an asshole (and shamed by a couple female posters) when the very ‘good guys’ here have said far worse and would be livid if someone walked out in the middle of sex as she was told she should have done, but I digress.

    The movement to expatriate/import is the only logical next step and you’re actually helping propel that movement. You are actually not helping American women find suitable partners, you are helping spread the perception that American women are just not worthy period, because one word taken out of context, or one simple misstep and she is branded an s-word (I refuse to use that word again, I have used it in the context of discussion here but the way you guys are using it I swear this is becoming another version of the n-word and that’s coming from someone who IS black).

    You think you’re helping draw lines between who is worthy and who is not when in reality you’re only helping perpetuate the mentality that none are worthy.

    It’s all good when you think they only hate s-s until one day you wake up and realize they hate you too.

    At this point so many canaries have flown out of the coal mine it’s ridiculous you don’t heed the warning.

    Toodles.

  • Mike

    @Joe 400

    Sadly, that’s not quite it, though. If you were to ask, most men think most women are acceptably good-looking or better (but yeah, I know those claiming to be Alphas would also claim that they’re more discriminating than that). At the same time, most women think most men are indeed below average looking. We’ve had graphs posted here (sorry; perhaps someone has a link) that more or less establish that.

    OkCupids study told the tale. (off reddit)
    http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Olive,

    On the other hand, what about those 200 girls? Do they fall in the 20%? Does Yohami just make them think he’s relationship minded? (That scoundrel). I think every guy has his own style, so that accounts for some of it. But most women I know would not be excited about a guy if they knew he had 20 past partners, much less 200.

    Whenever a girl gets to talk to me and is close enough to even ask about my number, she´s already competing and has been hearing buzz and hype of how amazing I am and their imagination is already flying high.

    When you say 20%, do you mean the hardcore sluts? I had a few of them but no, I avoid hardcore sluts, because hardcore sluts dont screen, they end up with lower status guys somewhere in the middle.

    This:

    Does Yohami just make them think he’s relationship minded?

    The opposite. But this goes back to the same misunderstanding, or, lie, that girls are ONLY and ONLY relationship oriented and that whenever they have the hots for some guy they want to marry him. Its just not the case. And pretty much every girl I have met has had a high adrenaline and intense crush / fling at some point.

    I just decided, back in the day, that *fling* was my zone. That after many many many many, many years of being myself relationship-only oriented and getting nothing.

    So no, no relationship courtship, no delays, etc. No relationship.

    Just browse through your own memories of all these times you had or would have had a fling with some guy that you knew didnt want to marry you. Then picture that guy wanted you and knew what he was doing. Then imagine if you would have been swept of your feet for him or not.

    This 20% thing. There´s about a 20% of girls that are relationship-only oriented. Say, Hope. First kiss happening after love has already been established. Or very religious girls. Or. etc.

    Then 20% of girls that are very sex-driven and avoid relationships or dont know how to perform on them.

    Then a bigger 60% that mixes both relationships and flings to some degree.

    Sum the 60% of these free agents + 20% of sluts and that gives you the bigger pool, the SMP. So that was my diet. I think 30% of it were naturally promiscuous girls. Probably less. Most of the others are in relationships now, or where in relationships before, or in relationships when they had the fling with me.

    This thing about girls getting grossed by guys with high numbers happen in a different part of the brain. And I´ve seen it happen a lot of times. If the information comes up after she´s already attracted, it has no effect. None. It increases the attraction and instantly creates jealousy and intrafemale competition. The girl starts trying to outperform what she imagines I other girls did with me. If the number comes up before theres attraction, say, before she met me, and she comes around, its all a shit test where she will try to pinpoint me and put me in my place, only to find herself disarmed and giggling and wondering whos this guy and why does she feel that way.

    So.

    Preselection doesnt gross girls out. The opposite. At least when its the guy standing still, at the top, and the girls all flocking around him – and not the guy circling around the pool of girls and racking what he can get. The second grosses people out, the first creates admiration. Put that to test.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Charm,

    Welcome to the commentariat and thanks for reading my blog. That being said I think this is a bit of wishing:

    “Because this “alpha” can’t admit that he isn’t good enough. No man that full of himself is ever going to admit he can’t measure up to a highly selective woman. Its just not gonna happen.”

    This is of a piece with the “douchebags aren’t confident, they are just insecure” type of talk. In actuality, one of the very effective tools of players is to accept rejection as a part of the game, and move on before he wastes opportunity cost on a woman who’s not going to pan out. I read a quote on a player blog where he said “I don’t get rejected any less than other guys. I just keep trying with other girls.”

    As for the ‘highly selective woman,’ I have seen plenty of well-educated career gals fall for players. Usually when I hear a woman talk about being selective, she’s unusually picky (even by women’s standards) and has the concomitant miserable singleness to go along with it, while ignoring good non-player candidates who would be great boyfriends if she wasn’t so hung up on her “standards.”

    Not saying you’re like that, just saying what I’ve seen when women pride themselves on “selectivity.”

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/im-just-sayin/

  • Mike C

    To be fair, I actually plan to write a post about cheating tales for husbands. I know the myth says that women are not as easy to catch when cheating but I think is a wrong myth I gladly only had known one personal female friend that has cheated but I observed cheating from accounts of husbands and lovers and in every case it was pretty obvious to me I could even point out to when they had sex for the first time with the other man. I think is another “but I looked at him he should know I like him!!!” thing in which what is pretty obvious for women just go over the head for men.

    Anacoana, can you share your views on “tells” here similar to your player tells. Looking back, I was totally oblivious to when my ex-wife started cheating on me. Even now, I”m unsure there were “obvious” signs I missed. I’ve spent probably too much time reading “cheating wives” stories on the Internet, so I”m not sure if it a myth or not, but it does seem like women are much better at covering their tracks:

    https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/the-rush/
    https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/01/02/plate-theory-v-ladys-game/#comment-2160

    “Dunno about that, I know plenty of guys fucking married women for years without the husband knowing. Way more common than you think.

    Heck, a friend showed me a text from a girl he fucked who then went to a dinner with her husband at her in-laws and she texted that she was dripping his cum while at the dinner table!

    I’m 99% sure I don’t have to worry about this with my current SO, but I’d still like to get your thoughts Anacoana on what to keep an eye on.

    Mike, VD, I”ve been playing too much Grant Turismo (God I love the Bugatti Veyron)..haven’t played a FPS since Quake 2 but I was thinking of picking one up. If JUST ONE, what do I go with Battlefield 3, Call of Duty, or something else. I’ve got a PS3.

    Yohami, Morpheus says there is no spoon.

    Alpha versus Beta and what is Alpha. Can we mentally jerk ourselves off any more. Get even more lost in pedantry and minutia and nonsense about zoology. Jesus Christ, people stop making this so hard. There are alpha traits and beta traits and they run a continuum, not binary. It is easy to outline the opposing pairs.

    Confident versus tentative
    Leader versus follower
    Bold versus meek
    Strong, forceful voice versus meek one
    Assertive/aggressive versus passive/deferential
    Smooth and suave around women versus awkward (which separates out Bill Gates per Susan’s comment).

    And so on an so on. It isn’t that alpha is defined by sexual validation….it is that for the most part pretty uniformly across the board women are more sexually attracted to bold, strong, smooth than the polar opposite just as men are more attracted to small waist, tight ass, and perky tits while some minority of guys have a fat fetish (women who are attracted to beta traits). Alpha versus beta guys is just about what behaviors they primarily exhibit and it is context dependent (women and career could be different). I’m alot more alpha in the gym compared to work. I don’t think there is pure alpha and beta but a spectrum. But we are talking about male-female interaction here, not job/professional accomplishments so alpha=sex with lots of women or ability to do so is a good first order approximation.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    *If the information comes up after she´s already attracted, it has no [NEGATIVE] effect.

  • Mike

    Susan/Tasmin 309

    @Tasmin

    So I am left with “why would I want to be with someone who would want to be with a manwhore?” The problem is, from what I have experienced, women prefer not to know a # (the “I have been a healthy, responsible, sexually active man for X years” will almost always suffice) or they assume a big number and hope for something less, or they mentally accept a big number because their own is getting kinda high and they expect the man to have bigger count. Which is why I firmly believe that moderate to low numbers for men is probably a nice thing to have for women, but rarely does it qualify/disqualify.

    Beat me to the punch (by virtue of me being asleep :p) but said so much more eloquently than i could have. Although i do hope Yohami answers my post above, nothing like getting it straight from the tap.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Sassy6519,

    @ Yohami
    Interesting. Why don’t you tell them the truth?

    Because Im not trying to get their approval. And there´s something called agree and amplify that works every time.

  • Mike

    @Sassy 422

    Who would you rather date (not bang only, but date)
    – A hot stripper
    -A hot lawyer

    The one who was nicer to me and made me feel special when im around her. Her ‘career’ matters f*ckall to me.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Mike C,

    Confident versus tentative
    Leader versus follower
    Bold versus meek
    Strong, forceful voice versus meek one
    Assertive/aggressive versus passive/deferential
    Smooth and suave around women versus awkward

    Yeah!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Yohami

    I get that. Still, why don’t you tell them the truth? I guess this makes it okay for every woman to claim that they have never come in contact with a penis because “they aren’t seeking the guy’s approval”. Seriously, why don’t you tell them the truth?

    @ Mike

    With only the details given, who would you choose? Without bringing in any other criteria, who would you date?

    -A hot stripper
    -A hot lawyer

  • Anna

    @ JT
    “I really don’t get it..Orlando Bloom and Johnny Depp are not exactly the perfect examples of masculinity…and yet there is something about them that gets women everywhere swooning…”

    I think masculinity matters to women in every form, not just the pure physical way. David Gandy is to me the image of the perfect masculine man physically, but I have never met him and as he is a model, there is a good chance I wouldn’t date him. Interests, charisma, intelligence and professional life is far more important and I really couldn’t see myself with a model. I suppose as men look for obvious physical femininity in women, they assume it to go the other way around. But masculinity which is shown through confidence and a certain wordliness is far more important.
    I might add Orlando was a teenage crush, as was he for most girls. Johnny Depp however, is a great actor and an interesting guy. Although overly bohemian in his looks, he’s certainly not bad-looking either.

  • Mike

    @MikeC

    haven’t played a FPS since Quake 2 but I was thinking of picking one up. If JUST ONE, what do I go with Battlefield 3, Call of Duty, or something else. I’ve got a PS3.

    Technically speaking, BF3 is the better looking of the 2. But here’s how id break it down:
    If you have MW, MW2 then get MW3, it completes the story arc and you will be very familiar with the multiplayer mode.

    ELSE

    get BF3. I hear it’s a good game, visually stunning, and building collapse. If you have played BF3 online and are used to its more team based/vehicle modes then go for it, especially if you aren’t locked down to the MW story.

    Personally tho, MW is EPIC.. like a Michael Bay movie you get to play in :)

  • Anna

    @ Sassy
    “-A hot stripper
    -A hot lawyer”

    I’m looking forward to hearing responses. I don’t know if you’ve watched Sex and the City? I know it’s the enemy of HUS, but there is a great episode where Miranda goes speed-dating and she introduces herself, saying she’s a lawyer, went to Harvard etc. As soon as she mentions it, the guy go uninterested and starts looking around. She then switches and go, “I’m a stewardess” and the guy is immediately interested.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Anna

    Yes, I have seen that episode too. I’m looking forward to the responses as well.

  • Anna

    @ Badger
    “As for the ‘highly selective woman,’ I have seen plenty of well-educated career gals fall for players.”

    Unfortunately I think it’s very true. When women reach a certain age, a lot of their standards fall apart anyway. I know numerous single women 30+ who either remain single or go from jerk to jerk. One woman of 38 I know, looking to get married, cruises around Europe and end up with lovers and FWBs, juggling them and trying to make one of them turn into something proper. The danger is the fact that many of these guys are willing to sleep with her but would never take it further, but keeping this thing going, she gets a deluded idea of what she deserves for a relationship. E.g. I got a hot and rich guy as a FWB, why can’t I for marriage? Some standards go out the door, but some basics, like money and a good job, remain. Problem is that there are millions of other single women looking for the same guy.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Sassy,

    I get that. Still, why don’t you tell them the truth?

    If its an intimate / real conversation I agree and amplify first, then I say the truth, after the giggles happened and I get asked a second time.

    Flirting is not about *saying the truth* though, but about telling a story. Saying I´ve been with millions conveys the truth more than just stating the number, and it doesnt fall in the reactive “Im being interviewed” frame.

    I guess this makes it okay for every woman to claim that they have never come in contact with a penis

    A woman can do the same, “Im a virgin” with a wink, and then say her real number, as long as its low and closer to virginity than closer to sluterhood.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @ Sassy

    Who would you rather date (not bang only, but date)
    -A hot stripper
    -A hot lawyer

    Stripper. And I’ll tell you why.

    Much as I enjoy smart women, a female lawyer is more likely to COMPETE with me than COMPLEMENT me. This is anecdotal, but every single female lawyer I’ve met has either been very unattractive (masculine-looking/overweight), very snooty/bossy, or both.

    Men do NOT like women who try to compete with them. Period.

    So you put yourself through law school while volunteering at a women’s shelter. Now you help people crush other people in the courts. You’ll remind me of this every chance you get, you can’t cook worth a darn…and I’m supposed to just accept this?

    No. Thank you.

    At least the stripper pays attention to her looks. And might even treat me nicely.

  • Mike

    Yohami 428

    That after many many many many, many years of being myself relationship-only oriented and getting nothing.

    Cosmic cruel joke.

    Him:I want a relationship with you, you’re my soulmate!!!
    Her: get away you needy creep

    Him:when i get back from poker, make me a sandwich and polish my pole before i go work on my motorcycle.
    Her: I WANT HIS BABIES!!!

    Ahhh to quote the Kari:
    Time for evening coffee.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Chris_in_CA

    Interesting. I want to say something in response to your answer, but I’m going to wait until a few more guys chime in.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      Interesting, the two baboon studies we pulled complement one another nicely. It’s not surprising that some males would simply drop out of the male on male competition altogether.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Sassy,

    I dont know what you see on the striper / lawyer thing, but I guess its about status. Status isnt attractive. It can work the other way around when that status comes with masculine traits. I even have a hard time imagining a *hot* lawyer. I picture some rigid girl in a black suit and thick glasses.

    For dating purposes the stripper is disqualified because she poses sexually in low-status settings. She´s cheap. If she´s a playboy model that might be different.

    The lawyer probably disqualifies herself since I picture her non feminine.

    I dont get a hard on nor a sparkle on my heart because a girl got a college degree and knows how to take money from other people.

    I´d date an artistic / humanities girl over a playboy girl.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “OK, I’ve gone to the study and read the fine print. The cutoff was between 5 and 6 partners for men, reflecting a “Precipitous drop off” in the number of men who had more than 5 partners. It is also noted that the results were slightly skewed by a few subjects of each sex who had more than 45 partners.”

    Interesting, I read the study too and even though the sample is small the results almost mirror actual behavior (per CDC/Census). The outliers in the data set always throw off the average (learned that back in statistics 101), so it’s best to just throw them out. Median makes the most sense (for men 5 partners, for women 3), as it tells you what the box is and how many people are in it.

    My guess is, outside of large metropolitan cities, peoples’ discomfort level kicks in tremendously when they have to contemplate a partner with double digits. That’s the key in my mind: single vs. double digits would be the best predictor of whether a person spent their late teens and 20s in serious relationships (or celibate), vs. somewhere else… This can be applied to men or women, but probably men especially.

    “The takeaway from this post, aside from my explaining my position on the SDS, is that a man who has had sex with a lot of different women begins to tire of a woman the moment he has sex with her for the first time. That’s it. It’s real, and it’s something that women should understand.”

    I think the moral of the study (so to speak) is, the more people one has sex with, the less “special” sex is with any one person (after a certain point). At least for men, that is. This always made sense to me, in my own experience as well as my guy friends who were very clearly relationship-minded. It’s interesting that this doesn’t seem to apply to women. They tend to bond with a guy whether they’ve slept around or not. Not sure why that’s the case. I could be wrong, though.

  • Anna

    From what I’ve seen of American career-women, I can totally understand men not wanting to go there. I know some beautiful, sweet and feminine law students (Scandinavian though, not American), but they are not workaholics and more likely someone who will end up working as an assistant in a smaller firm, 35 hours a week.

    I think it’d be more interesting to get opinions on other professions, other than the extremes. Like what would men prefer of an author, teacher, ballerina or financier? Or simply which professions or fields of study do you find most attractive with a girl.

  • Mike

    @Sassy 436

    With only the details given, who would you choose? Without bringing in any other criteria, who would you date?

    -A hot stripper
    -A hot lawyer

    As i said earlier, the one who is nicer and makes me feel special. If you’re talking about it like im on a game show and had to choose behind door number 1 lawyer and door number 2 stripper (and they’re both hot)

    it could go multiple ways and be very hard for me to pick on the spot.

    ill need to think on this and come back to you on it. but i will leave off by saying i have met some really nice strippers (not coked out whores) that were really genuine (or great actors). having said that, not sure i’d consider marrying any. plus the lawyer might like her career more than me and outearn me and decide to leave me for someone of greater status.

    If she’s a divorce lawyer.. it’s the stripper hands down.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “I’m looking forward to hearing responses. I don’t know if you’ve watched Sex and the City? I know it’s the enemy of HUS, but there is a great episode where Miranda goes speed-dating and she introduces herself, saying she’s a lawyer, went to Harvard etc. As soon as she mentions it, the guy go uninterested and starts looking around. She then switches and go, “I’m a stewardess” and the guy is immediately interested.”

    Total projection by the scriptwriters (gay men, as I understand it). A guy saying “I’m a lawyer” versus “I’m a waiter” is going to get a huge difference in response, because women see a man’s job as an intrinsic marker of his sexual and social worth. So a scene gets written that expresses female reality in a gender-reversed form that gives a character an excuse to whine about how unfair it is.

    But men, by and large, don’t really care what a woman does with her working hours. I do, but I am abnormal in that category; in fact, in my community of STEM guys are fairly concerned about catching a woman whose work communicates intelligence, drive and seriousness. But I do not think we are typical.

    Women just can’t seem to see that it’s not that a man will mark you down for being a “career woman,” it’s just irrelevant to his attraction to you. If you are physically attractive, pleasant, and seemed to be interested in him, a man will take you seriously as a relationship prospect.

    Educated women seem to be driven by twin and dissonant paranoias: one that says “guys don’t respect a woman’s accomplishments, you need to be a ditzy coquette,” and another that says “guys want to marry a Jackie, not a Marilyn (quote from Legally Blonde), so I need to be a big ballsbuster or I won’t get taken seriously by a husband.”

    On the other side…my anecdotal experience is that women who go into law tend to be more argumentative and competitive (thus less enjoyable to be around) than those who don’t, and have a difficult time turning that off, so saying you’re a lawyer is going to communicate bitchiness (for lack of a better term).

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “With only the details given, who would you choose? Without bringing in any other criteria, who would you date?

    -A hot stripper
    -A hot lawyer”

    Another thing…questions like these are always silly, because we don’t know how we’ll react to a situation until it’s put in front of us. It’s easy to say we’d rather date a caring, soft-spoken guy, or a stripper, or a mechanic who is home at 5 o’clock versus an executive who lives at the office, when it’s an intellectual exercise. If we could accurately predict our responses to social options, we wouldn’t need the field of research psychology to do experiments to find out what we really do when the chips are down. So all these hypotheticals are really meaningless.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What do the men think of this?

      I just found an article from Cosmo, Why Men Love Career Women

      Give him something to think about.

      We know you’re already a ballsy, strong woman, so don’t rein it in. “The reason men love that character is because she’s never boring,” says David Wexler, PhD, executive director of the Relationship Training Institute. “Being opinionated keeps a guy on his toes.” Debating whether his new favorite band is really that awesome or disagreeing with him about something you both read in the news — those are the kinds of things that keep him mentally intrigued by you. “The key is to keep it a back-and-forth conversation: You share your views, and he shares his,” says Wexler. “Otherwise, he’ll start to feel like you’re controlling, not challenging, him.”

      Flaunt your ambition.

      “To men, it’s really sexy when a woman knows what she wants and goes after it,” says Blazina. So talk to him about your plans to land a promotion or run a half marathon. Yeah, it’s hot to watch you kick ass, but that kind of drive also indicates passion, which is incredibly alluring to a guy. “It lets him know that not only do you enjoy independence, but you’re also the type of woman who will always make the most out of life,” says Wexler. “And he wants to be a part of that.”

      There are a couple of male PhD’s contributing. I’m not sure if this is pure BS or not. It does fit with the observation of women that a lot of guys date bitches. I’ve seen it too – and the explanation that they were hotter was not sufficient to explain it. Hyper bitchy sorority girls do well relative to other attractive girls in the same sorority.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    Who would you rather date (not bang only, but date)

    Um… pass on both? Let’s presume we’re talking about stereotypes here. I don’t think much of the stereotypical male lawyers either. As a group their world-view is atrocious, and then they tend to turn into politicians.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Waiting for ozy/Heidi to come in citing bonobo studies wrt polyamory.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Susan

    I think it’s feminist garbage. It’s a feel-good piece intended to delude women into following the “strong independent male-shaming” herd.

    “Being opinionated keeps a guy on his toes.” Well, sure…I run fastest on the balls of my feet. And if a woman’s in my face with a bunch of loud opinions (usually designed to ‘prove’ she’s a ‘strong woman’), I’m running at full tilt!

    “It lets him know that not only do you enjoy independence, but you’re also the type of woman who will always make the most out of life,” says Wexler. “And he wants to be a part of that.”

    This line of ‘thinking’ only works if the author is talking about puppies, not men.

    As to “the observation of women that a lot of guys date bitches” – I can’t speak for all instances. But they might date them because the bitches give them lots of good sex. So they’re dealing with the bitchiness the rest of the time. (I tried to do this once…but she wouldn’t even have sex with me. NOT WORTH IT.)

  • Mike

    @Susan 454

    What do the men think of this?

    I just found an article from Cosmo, Why Men Love Career Women

    I view Cosmo (and Feministing/Jizzabelle) like i view the ultraviolet spectrum.

    The only reason a guy would date a hyper bitchy girl is if he had no spine.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    I also think the comic is a bit of a lark. I doubt that fathers are concerned about partner counts per se – a dad wants his son to have dates to homecoming and the prom, girlfriends in college, and a woman to marry when he thinks it’s time. Which is the same thing fathers want for their daughters. Which is why he gives different advice to both of them in aim of the same purpose, to preserve and enhance their social value.

    To call it a “double standard” is a bit of a misnomer. Men and women are different and benefit from expressing different traits.

    It’s a double standard when Michael Jordan doesn’t get called for the foul a swingman gets called for. It’s not when we expect offensive linemen to weight more than wide receivers.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I also think the comic is a bit of a lark.

      I certainly meant it as a joke, I wasn’t trying to make a comment about real double standards there. I was surprised that people took it so seriously.

  • Rum

    Sassy
    Both the examples you used are “complicated”. Lawyer chicks have a special reputation among professional women for certain bad qualities. Strippers also have a well deserved reputation for bringing certain problems.

    Allow me to amend the question.

    Would guys rather date a hot school teacher or a hot accountant?

    That is easy. (I am trying to not repeat any of the several jokes about this that all have the same punch line). Honestly, the one that is nicest to be around and whose lust for me feels more genuine.
    The status rank of her job has only a microscopic bearing on any of this. Smart is important, obviously, but smartness is developed and expressed in many arenas outside of the career game.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Would guys rather date a hot school teacher or a hot accountant?

      I know several elementary school teachers in their early 20s, and to a woman they claim that their profession produces “an instant boner” when they meet men.

  • Doug1

    Rum

    @Hope
    Good point about culture and up-bringing redirecting instincts. I accept that. I fact, I have suggested that successful societies in the past have made deliberate efforts to make beta traits feel like alpha traits to young women while draping alpha appearances over the average guy.
    But here is a problem. If a young womans up-bringing is more or less neutral in regard to the sort of guy she should “want”, which way will she most likely go?

    Or if beta traits are actively devalued if not ridiculed by the culture, what is the honest thing one should say to young men in that culture who want to get some of what they need?

    Yeah I accept it too. In fact I agree with all three of the things you said. The last we see in the form of American sitcoms aimed primarily at women portraying average husbands as rather bumbling and “having” to defer to their wives all the time to preserve family harmony, rather than the other way round, as was portrayed in 50s tv shows.

    The middle graph is the bio influence, the wired in component or strong tendency if there isn’t tons of social pressure to only have sex in relationships with a guy you can manage to keep loyal and faithful – or generally a guy of her own SMV rank.

    As for the first, I think is sometimes works the way she’s suggesting. Her own Asian family values imparted by her mother mostly is what I think she’s referring to, and her recoiling from the way her father treated her mother which she’s recounted on this blog, so I don’t feel I’m telling tales out of school.

    But what that first graph of yours reminded me of most of all Rum is my musings that American culture used to build the average man, the average American husband, as being the natural leader of his household and family on the big decisions, as being naturally masculine and strong. Sure the culture recognized there were some Casper Milktoasts around and made fun of them, but they had to go pretty far in that to get put in that category. The “Greatest Generation” had won WWII with lots of grit and determination and received a lot of media promulgated respect for that, and America lead the world not just in the war but also in the prosperity and rapid economic growth and fast technical innovation which followed it. This was all credited to men, and white men weren’t being excoriated by radical equality left liberals in control now of much of the MSM, for being responsible for women then earning lots less, or blacks and certain other minorities lagging in success – instead the average white man was respected for his relative success.

    Now American wives are mostly encouraged to think of average men as followers of wives, and husbands are encouraged to be that way in our mass media as well. These media offerings don’t generally come right out and say this sexually turns women off over time – but they don’t portray it as in any way exciting either, just tranquil.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    Just as women are likely to underreport their sexual experiences, men are likely to overreport them, so I think you can generally take a male rating (of his own conquest) and take off at least a third if not more.

    So, let me make this perfectly clear, lest it show up as a blog post somewhere else:

    I reject alpha = player. I reject alpha = lots of lays.

    Gotta call you on that one. A third? Hahaha wow, let’s take your “7”. There’s a BIG difference between a 7, a girl who’s well above average and a girl who is just below average (a 4.7 to be nerdy about it). I don’t buy that inflation idea at all to the degree that you are asserting. In real life your boys will see her in person and can legitimately compare with what they are capable of pulling- lies just don’t get that far.

    @Sassy

    Snag some really classy, high profile, well-mannered and educated top shelf women, and perhaps the women will have more respect for that.

    The reason guys like myself balk at this whole quality vs. quantity disqualification is not because I believe every word that comes out of Doug. It’s because often times the quality of the women you pull has to do with the circles you run in. I could introduce you to a good few guys who are real alphas in many senses of the word, including with women, and since we all run in professional circles, the girls we are around and date are generally attractive and have their lives together. Those girls need to get laid too, and they definitely do, with guys they view as at or above their level. And to me, that doesn’t exclude you from being “quality” per se. The dynamic is the same as among people in “lesser” circles with less education or trappings of success.

    @Susan

    I am a big fan of Inner Game, or personal development of traits that will make a man happier and more successful in life, but I would argue that a true alpha is a man worthy of respect. A player is not worthy of respect, IMO.

    This much I definitely respect about you. But I’m also of the belief that too many people, especially women, cast the “player” blanket way too far. Any dude who doesn’t want a relationship, or who has more than one girl in her circle offering him a shot at sex is a “player” these days. Malicious intent is assumed where there is none, and a lot of times you getting called a player is a function of whether she has an ego or reputation to protect and nothing more.

    I really don’t like the media reinforced sour grapes meme that any guy who gets a lot of female interest and acts on even some of it is a “player” and is destined to end up unhappy unless he “grows up”. Life just isn’t a fairy tale in that way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BroHamlet

      I was actually joking about reducing the estimate by a third, because guys always say that when a woman tells you her number, you should triple it, which is equally ridiculous.

      Any dude who doesn’t want a relationship, or who has more than one girl in her circle offering him a shot at sex is a “player” these days. Malicious intent is assumed where there is none, and a lot of times you getting called a player is a function of whether she has an ego or reputation to protect and nothing more.

      I really don’t like the media reinforced sour grapes meme that any guy who gets a lot of female interest and acts on even some of it is a “player” and is destined to end up unhappy unless he “grows up”

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a guy not wanting a relationship, as long as he is clear about that from the start. The whole notion of “being played” is that there is a sort of bait and switch that goes on. For example, a guy has two girls in the same circle showing interest in him, and he responds not by choosing one, but by pursuing both simultaneously and covertly, knowing this is not sustainable, it’s going to end very badly for at least one of those girls, if not both.

      The most common technique a player uses is to pretend interest in a relationship when he doesn’t feel it. Amber Madison found in her survey of over 1,000 men:

      On Faking Interest to Get Sex

      56% of guys in bars said they would fake interest in a girl to get sex
      41% of guys not in bars said the same
      44% of guys in bars said they would lie about wanting a relationship to get sex
      33% of guys not in bars said the same.

      Many guys excused sketchy sexual behavior, saying, “We met in a bar, what does she expect?” Guys assume that girls in bars know what they’re getting themselves into.

      So we’re talking about a sizable percentage of men who do this. That’s what women hate about players.

      Then you’ve got men like some who have commented here who are with women who “allow” them to bang chicks on the side while they remain faithful. I find that behavior unjustifiable, on the basis that any woman who would agree is mentally deficient. :)

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    emily,

    “I’m not saying that the guys should all run out and date ugly chicks or anything, but the fact that they’re rarely even mentioned is noteworthy.”

    That’s very true, & I’ve noticed this myself, though the number of ‘undateable’ girls is far lower than the number of ‘undateable’ boys.

    As Joe said, ‘most men think most women are acceptably good-looking or better … At the same time, most women think most men are indeed below average looking.’

  • Sash

    A lawyer has to exercise her masculine side 50+ houra
    a week. Such practice is likely to harden a woman, leaving little time/energy to develop/deepen her feminine side. Being a doctor, on the other hand allows for more feminine expression while carrying same status. Personally, a lawyer – no. A doctor – yes if she can dance.

    A typical stripper is low class and even if she is high class, dancing im a sexually charged strip clubis to crude for my taste. A professional bellydancer, on the other hand, is a green light if she is sharp.

  • Doug1

    Olive—

    In any case, you’re doing it again Doug. Writing off my comments as absurd, trying to put me and Susan in the Team Woman camp, making this girls vs. boys.

    Doing what again Olive, disagreeing with some of what you say in strong, compelling terms, that you and several women here dismiss usually without any good logic. Yeah, guilty as charged.

    There has been a fundamental tautology to Susan’s and to a lesser extent your argument that cute and hot girls aren’t really sexually attracted to alphas, as I’ve pointed out. And tautology is absurdly wrong. Sorry, just is.

    Though I’ve mostly had Susan in mind. I take your stance to primarily be that though alphas may be very sexually attractive to most girls, it’s a bad bargain for girls of considerably lower SMV ranking to try to chase them in hopes of a relationship, because that ain’t happening in all likelihood, so they like you should work to self improve and retool your hypergamist instincts towards being more appreciative and loving towards betas. Which I’m more than fine with.

    I take Susan as agreeing with all that, but also trying to argue around the edges that really girls aren’t naturally all that attracted to alphas, it’s just social programming from sex positive feminists. That’s too bald a statement of what she’s trying to edge towards, but I think captures the flavor. I think that’s almost totally bogus.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I take Susan as agreeing with all that, but also trying to argue around the edges that really girls aren’t naturally all that attracted to alphas, it’s just social programming from sex positive feminists.

      What??? That doesn’t even make sense.

      Let me say it again:

      This post is not about whether women are attracted to alphas.

      This post is about men with high partner counts tiring quickly of women after one sexual encounter.

      This is about what men are attracted to, not what women are attracted to. I will delete any further comments on who falls for men with high partner counts.

  • Doug1

    Anna—

    From what I’ve seen of American career-women, I can totally understand men not wanting to go there. I know some beautiful, sweet and feminine law students (Scandinavian though, not American), but they are not workaholics and more likely someone who will end up working as an assistant in a smaller firm, 35 hours a week

    I like women I’m involved with to be in arty or caring professions, and to consider that stimulation and independence / fall back to a degree, but to also be very relationship oriented. I like taking care of my woman in many ways, and her appreciating that, but I don’t need or really want her to be totally dependent on me.

    In practice I’ve seemed to prefer arty. Commercial arty as it’s mostly happened. But I could see falling for a primary school teacher, though I’d want a smart one, probably teaching in private school. I could see falling for a doctor, as Bhetti’s soon gonna be, who puts family first, but career way important too.

  • FeralEmployee

    I think the appeal of career driven women overlaps with what men value. I find myself to much more attracted to a person I can respect. In today’s society that respect might indeed correlate with women having higher status jobs, but not per se.

    Face it, there are plenty of professions that tend to get looked down upon in today’s society. But that’s no argument for a man to assess his interest. What matters is, what does the woman think about it? A woman that knows how to feel involved with her profession, will put impress me more. If on the other hand, she makes it clear it has a drag effect on her, my interest level might drop considerably. She can still feel passionate about her hobbies, meaning her job is to support her in pursuing more knowledge in the those hobbies.

    What irritates men about the feminism culture today? It’s that their teachers aren’t able to inspire them. I had a nice teacher once that didn’t felt exited about her job… my grades fell, because I had zero interest in the course. Then there was this woman that was harsh on me, but in a fair way, and was motivated about what she did (and she taught math, hubba hubba…), I scored well. That teacher got sick and was replaced by a hippie dude that had no control. My grades remained great (hey, it’s math…), though my involvement sacked.

    A woman that would start talking with passion (of course no need to exaggerate) about her job or hobbies will get me interested. Complain however, and you’d be male friend zoned. The worst ones are those that hate the job and want to to pursue hobbies that require lots of money and don’t deserve respect (i.e. why I can’t stand gold diggers).

    So to summarize, for me a lot has to do with the question: “Can I give her respect? Does she push herself to get great in this one admirable area?” Of course don’t take this the wrong way, everybody deserves respect, but I’m talking about that rare breed of honorable respect. Not only job satisfaction, but take pride in what you do for reasons that are rational and can testify of logical insight.

  • pvw

    Regarding female law students and lawyers:

    Here are my observations, as a fair number of my students have gone on to law school or have an interest in it. In addition, I have a few relatives and friends who are female lawyers and I have some female colleagues who are law professors.

    Most go in to law because they want to be in a field with a high income potential.

    Those who go in it because they have some cause they support or want to right injustices become the bitchy litigator types. I can think of one of my former students right now, she fits that category to a “t”.

    Those who are less aggressive don’t become bitchy litigators. They do more low-key work, ie., corporate filings, contracts, real estate and wills. If they do litigation, it is for a short while before they go on to something else not as demanding on their time and energy. Some leave practice altogether and go into law teaching or some other field.

    One friend is in administrative law. I notice no bitchiness in dealing with her. I get the sense she does what she has to in her work life and then turns it off. I don’t get a sense that her husband is complaining at all, especially when her lawyerly skills has helped him in the past with work-related visa issues.

    One relative was in corporate. She is the one of the most low-key and relaxed women I know. She married 14 years ago and has been a stay-at-home mom.

    Another has been in corporate but she has never been aggressive or bitchy enough so survive the office politics of the corporate law firm. She graduated in ’04 and I have heard of the sagas of her experiences over the years. She is now done for good. She is looking into other opportunities.

    It is funny, that when she was finishing college in her humanities program, she wanted to do an MFA. Her parents urged her not to, because there was no future in that. She applied to law school and got in, which took her onto the path she is on now.

    So I would qualify the assessment of “women lawyers,” the lawyers you see are not all the ones who are out there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PVW

      I have had the same experience. I do know some very aggressive and masculine female lawyers, but I also know quite a few women of that description who are SAHMs. And I think most of us had elementary school teachers like that. The nurse who took care of me after my c-section was a battle axe of a woman with a sadistic streak. That was not fun.

      I am close to one woman, partner in a DC law firm, she has argued in front of the Supreme Court five times, and she’s only 41. I would describe her as feminine and gentle in her demeanor. IDK, maybe she speaks softly and carries a big stick in the courtroom, but I’ve known her since she was in middle school, and that’s who she is.

      Since law school is a dumping ground for humanities majors, it’s obviously not the case that all women coming out of law school are…anything.

  • Sassy6519

    Thanks guys for all the responses.

    My reason for asking that particular question was in response to Doug1 bragging about his stripper ex-girlfriend. I imagine most men do not actively want to date strippers or place much value in men who do (please correct me if I’m wrong), but it appears the line is a bit blurrier than I originally imagined. My point is, using strippers or women you have poached from other men as examples to validate your alpha credibility seems counter-intuitive. It makes the assumption that strippers and easily poached women are the most selective women out there (not to mention the most physically attractive), which just doesn’t seem to be the case from my perspective.

    @ Sash

    I like your opinions on this. A female doctor does seem to be a better fit. A female lawyer conjures up too many images of hardened masculine women, while a female doctor doesn’t necessarily do that. The key is that, no matter what profession the woman has, she needs to be feminine and pleasant to be around.

    Maybe, at the end of the day, men would prefer to bring a female doctor home to meet their parents instead of a stripper. If that is the case, is it safe to assume that being able to bang multiple female doctors makes a man more of an alpha than another man banging the same amount of strippers.?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Maybe, at the end of the day, men would prefer to bring a female doctor home to meet their parents instead of a stripper.

      Haha, you think?

      Often when I think about behaviors that men or women may display, and I’m trying to decide what they signify about character, I think about how I’d feel as a mother if one of my children engaged in them. If my son brought home a stripper I would be mortified, and I would really wonder how he could have chosen a woman who would make her living seducing and tantalizing men. If he was a player, pumping and dumping girls, I would struggle to understand his lack of empathy and moral fiber.

      If my daughter was slutty, I would struggle to understand her self-loathing. And if she brought home a guy with a very high partner count, I would stay silent but worry a great deal.

      BTW, I saw Crazy, Stupid, Love last night, and thought it was interesting how the Steve Carell character cannot accept his daughter’s dating a man he knows to be a womanizer. He tells him he is not a good man.

      So yeah, when push come to shove, mothers and fathers know what’s up.

  • FeralEmployee

    And sorry for the grammar mistakes, been plowing through science texts all day long.

  • jlw

    Emily said: “I’m not saying that the guys should all run out and date ugly chicks or anything, but the fact that they’re rarely even mentioned is noteworthy.”

    Omegas of both genders have always been ignored. Nobody writes about them. Nobody cares. It’s the largest body of people that no one has ever taken a serious look at.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    I have a strong aversion to “alphas” like Doug, who spend their time ranking women on the 1-10 scale then trying to bang them, as if alpha is some 12-step Lothario plan.

    I’m mostly a relationship guy, and have been since I turned 30 and got married. I have since then had some rutting around periods, but I’ve most of the time had live together girlfriends, lots younger than me. We’ve mostly broken up because she had some life change thing happening. Like Texas stripper. Several others, who have no socially viewed as negative connotations. Not always, sometimes I sort of pushed the girl out, generally by announcing I was no longer gonna be doing sexual fidelity. In one case post divorce though I just said bye, leave, she was getting too annoying drama queen.

  • Mike

    A school teacher is sort of the epitome of a good nurturer. And she’s very good at taking care of young children.

    And men are just nothing more than big kids at heart :)

    I would say tho, that the fantasy of the teaching woman drops off the higher age pupils she teaches.

    If she’s a university professor.. there’s a good chance she’s a woman’s lib/feminist instructor. Steer clear m’harties ye be warned dar be sea monsters ahead.

  • pvw

    …part 2–meaning that not all women lawyers fit the stereotype…

  • Rum

    School teachers seem to make the news on a regular basis these days for banging their young male students. Instant boner indeed. And there is the fact that every middle school/high school guy has had to try to hide his “reaction” to more than a few of his teachers. Conditioning.
    Maybe Dr. Freud could explain why I picked ” school teacher” as one of my examples of bangability.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    men with high partner counts tiring quickly of women after one sexual encounter

    That´s true and implicit in the high partner number count. When sex happens lightly and on a sexual / emotional high, what are the chances there will be more commonalities or stuff to explore after the high is gone?

    If there was proper relationship screening before the sex encounter the partner count wouldnt be high.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      When sex happens lightly and on a sexual / emotional high, what are the chances there will be more commonalities or stuff to explore after the high is gone?

      IIRC they administered questionnaires both before and after sex asking specific questions about physical attraction – How attractive is her face, body, etc. (This was also done for women, btw, but their level of attraction increased after sex.) The men with high partner counts literally rated the woman’s face less attractive after sex. The men with partner counts <6 found her more attractive after sex.

  • lovelost

    @Badger #451
    On the other side…my anecdotal experience is that women who go into law tend to be more argumentative and competitive (thus less enjoyable to be around) than those who don’t, and have a difficult time turning that off, so saying you’re a lawyer is going to communicate bitchiness (for lack of a better term).

    I concur, women who are argumentative is a natural turn off for me as well, irrespective of them being in law or not. Having said that, I have come across STEM women who argues in a very feminine way, that atleast gives me a hard on. the sweet, coyish way they argue makes my heart melt, and i feel i would like to bang her.

  • Doug1

    Susan Walsh–

    What??? That doesn’t even make sense.

    Of course it makes sense.

    Explicate why it doesn’t.

  • Tasmin

    “Who would you rather date (not bang only, but date)
    – A hot stripper
    -A hot lawyer”

    Its a win-win. A hot stripper working her way through law school or a hot lawyer that stripped her way through law school. Strippers take their clothes off for money, lawyers take other peoples clothes off for money. I’d pick the brunette and/or the green eyes. Like them green eyes.

  • pvw

    If she’s a university professor.. there’s a good chance she’s a woman’s lib/feminist instructor. Steer clear m’harties ye be warned dar be sea monsters ahead.

    My reply:

    It depends on the field; not all women university professors teach those fields and not all those who have an interest in gender-based topics are radical feminists.

    I am thinking of all sorts of fields where women’s lib/gender stuff need not even be anywhere on a female professor’s radar: history (my field–totally not radical, and lots of women’s historians don’t even write or teach topics in gender); sociology, management, economics, psychology, employment law, real property law, tax law, criminal law, health law, administrative law, intellectual property…

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Sassy6519
    “I imagine most men do not actively want to date strippers or place much value in men who do (please correct me if I’m wrong), but it appears the line is a bit blurrier than I originally imagined.”

    Despite being attractive on the outside (only, and not in every case), yick would be my first reaction. As the job requires a certain level of physicality, it invariably attracts women who 8+ on the looks scale, or just desperate for money. Based upon my early experiences with women in that class, I wrote them off completely for relationships. The breast augmentation thing is a big turn off, too.

    On the flipside, I don’t think I’d feel like “Mr. Big Shot” if my girlfriend stripped naked each night for a bunch of drooling barflies. And the VIP room stuff kind of strikes me as semi-cheating…

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Mike/Susan,

    “A school teacher is sort of the epitome of a good nurturer. And she’s very good at taking care of young children.”

    I have to say that as a precocious, intelligent, rambunctious (but not rebellious) boy, I often found teachers irritated or contemptuous of my talents vis a vis addressing the common denominator, and also unable to protect me (or teach me to protect myself) from bullies and other social detritus.

    So my association of teachers with benevolent nurturing is quite muted.

    Women I’ve met who are high school math or science teachers, now there’s an instant boner. They seem to understand how to identify and nurture unique talent, and the stresses facing STEM kids.

  • lovelost

    @Susan #454

    From my point of view, MSM has negative credibility, not even zero, don’t even breakeven. Cosmo fits into the bracket quite nicely. On top of that magazines like Cosmo, are catered towards to the Feminist, type, flaunt your ambition, is clear indication of type.

    MSM is large contributor to the larger destruction of traditional institution of Marriage in society as well. Anything that is put out my MSM these days, I ignore it.

    I have been watching The BigBang Theory episodes online, I like Penny.
    She is cute, sweet and has a nurturing quality in her. Especially the kitty songs she sings to Sheldon. On the record, I don’t need the same, just highlighting. Based on that and my preference for Penny, the Cosmo article is bullshit. The MSM is out of touch with reality of Men’s needs, wants and desires.

    However it is very good is providing ego validation to women.

  • pvw

    …not all female academics are in women’s studies!

    Susan:

    I am close to one woman, partner in a DC law firm, she has argued in front of the Supreme Court five times, and she’s only 41. I would describe her as feminine and gentle in her demeanor. IDK, maybe she speaks softly and carries a big stick in the courtroom, but I’ve known her since she was in middle school, and that’s who she is.

    My reply:

    From my understanding in chatting with colleagues who teach constitutional law and who have clerked as judges’ assistants, thost types of cases are really about more low-key argumentative styles–appellate cases. No litigation in the trial courts with badgering witnesses and fighting with other lawyers, but instead, the lawyers deal with Supreme Court justices asking questions of the lawyers in the cases before them, the laws in question, the implications. The lawyers are in the hot seat and have to be on their toes, knowledgeable enough to articulate and press their case well.

    From what I understand, it is a certain type of elite law practice.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PVW

      That makes sense, and it underscores the idea that very few lawyers are actually litigators, much less F. Lee Bailey types. I imagine the vast majority are in low key corporate law or work in the government.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Yes, that makes sense. The low number guys looking to invest more on this one, and the high number guys looking forward to the next girl.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The low number guys looking to invest more on this one, and the high number guys looking forward to the next girl.

      Exactly. Which is why women should not get invested in them. They’re already moving on, and you haven’t even slowed to a regular heartbeat yet. :(

  • Mike

    @Sassy 471

    Very recently i opened up to my coworkers about having landed a few strippers before getting into the LTR that ended up in my marriage.

    Upon hearing the word stripper, their eyes lit up and were simply fascinated and where putting me up on a pedestal that i couldn’t understand at the moment i said it. Once they relayed their positions it became clear.

    Strippers are hot. They know they’re hot. They command a lot of money because they are hot. They control the setting, and they expect that their wiley ways will simply work and that marks will be eager to open their wallets just for a few minutes of being able to touch their skin.

    In these places, it’s the stripper who has all the power. They’ve heard all the stories, they’ve seen all the acts.

    5 out of 10 men will fawn/drool and easily be led to the VIP with no resistance due to her sexual power.
    4 out of 10 men will tell her thanks but no thanks, im married, have a gf, whatever bullsh*t is required to avoid telling her an outright no.
    1 out of 10 men will say No to her face.

    Take that 10% of men, and 1% of them will be able to carry that No to the next step of enticing the person in power to relinquish it.

    I’d say a stripper is absolutely 100% more discerning in what she bangs. She gets propositions thrown at her quite often, from sob stories, to lovestruck puppies, to assholes who come in strong right out of the gate. A stripper has so many opportunities, and is in the business of using those opportunities to make a living by giving the least amount possible. To make someone like her GIVE IT ALL UP and forgoing any monetary recompense.. is what made my coworkers stand up and give me props.

    Strippers are sluts because they use their bodies to make money. But in choosing who they end up going home with not as a client, makes them more discerning than most women, because there is no ulterior motive in the selection but be there because she wants to be. The ultimate form of submission.

    Whether strippers are datable or marriage material is not the issue. They’re they’re the best gatekeepers due to financial incentive. To open the gate without paying the entry fee – now that’s validation.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    I was actually joking about reducing the estimate by a third, because guys always say that when a woman tells you her number, you should triple it, which is equally ridiculous.

    Yeah, tripling might be a bit harsh, but I think doubling is actually very fair. Girls don’t count vacation hookups, oral, etc. They’re REALLY good at rationalizing away anything they don’t want to feel guilty about. That’s the one thing that makes me a little nervous about women still- one good filter for GF material is to watch how good she is at lying to herself and other people and how often she does it.

    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a guy not wanting a relationship, as long as he is clear about that from the start. The whole notion of “being played” is that there is a sort of bait and switch that goes on. For example, a guy has two girls in the same circle showing interest in him, and he responds not by choosing one, but by pursuing both simultaneously and covertly, knowing this is not sustainable, it’s going to end very badly for at least one of those girls, if not both.

    It’s been suggested here and elsewhere that women come out and state their intentions right away and be adamant about it, but the complaint always boils down to something along the lines of making them unable to play the games that they play and stay mysterious. If you want exclusivity it’s your responsibility to ask, instead of assuming some level moral playing field or that you have the “right” to exclusivity. To your stats I would say that most often it plays out like this:

    1)Guy meets girl
    2)Girl likes guy and accepts his advances
    3)They have sex
    4)Girl gets emotional and wants to get closer (but may or may not say so)
    5)Guy kind of likes her but isn’t eager to couple up
    6)No exclusivity is discussed
    7)Guy continues to date around but doesn’t come out and say so directly because it’s a potentially uncomfortable conversation, and due to (6) above he’s not under any obligation to do so yet
    8)Girl finds out he’s dating around or just doesn’t feel the love from him and they drift apart
    9)Girl cries foul at Guy, society agrees with her.

    I could list many things that a woman feels are well within her rights to brush under the rug when she first meets you, not the least of which is who else she’s seeing. And a lot of times she’s putting on the “I’m a fun girl!” vibe to reel you in, but she can’t be held responsible for the result of doing so…It is very rarely so black and white as a guy arriving on bended knee and bolting after he gets the poon. The process is very much mutual, with communication from both sides that is made in an effort to move things along regardless of which direction.

    Add to this that good actors are not common, especially among men. Women are FAR more perceptive than men as a group, and society always sides with them anyway. So many women retroactively cry “player!!” out of some obligation that men give them what they want without them ever asking for it that it has no meaning anymore.

    Honestly, when have we given men a pass for being timid about what they want? Or even been understanding of men who get taken advantage of because they just ended up in a situation with a big grey area with a girl and it didn’t work out well for them? It’s hard for me to feel sorry for people who don’t take responsibility for their own situation.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BroHamlet

      Yeah, tripling might be a bit harsh, but I think doubling is actually very fair. Girls don’t count vacation hookups, oral, etc.

      Correction: Girls who bang strangers at Cancun don’t count it. Most girls would never do that. In fact, I know several girls who are ashamed of their real number ….too low.

      I think you’re correct when you say that many women tolerate “don’t ask, don’t tell” because they fear mentioning their interest in a relationship too early and coming across as clingy or needy. They’re not wrong about that, either.

      I consider it unethical for a man who knows, or even suspects that a woman wants a relationship, and pretends in any way to be interested in more than sex when he is not. At best, it’s a lie of omission. If there are so many women eager to have sex with dominant guys, why prey on the women who are trying to find a partner and keep their number down? FWIW, the same exact standard applies to women. And that includes women who pretend they don’t want a relationship when they do.

      I agree that people should take full responsibility for their actions, which they can only do if they are being treated with honesty and respect. To rob a person of either means that you assume responsibility for their action, like it or not.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “BTW, I saw Crazy, Stupid, Love last night, and thought it was interesting how the Steve Carell character cannot accept his daughter’s dating a man he knows to be a womanizer. He tells him he is not a good man.

    So yeah, when push come to shove, mothers and fathers know what’s up.”

    I don’t know if that’s the real lesson. Gosling was a good man (we can debate the pragmatics of the player’s lifestyle but there’s no reason that having one-night stands with women who want to have them is a low-character move), but just hadn’t met the good woman yet where he was comfortable opening up (very rom-com). AND he wouldn’t have met the good woman unless he had his player skills, because:

    -He wouldn’t have hit on Emma Stone to begin with
    -She wouldn’t have found him attractive and gone back to him when she was single

    (It’s obviously very significant they didn’t sleep together on the first night, she being the first woman he was with he didn’t feel the need to bang to feel validated.)

    Not to mention that Carrell’s hypocrisy is fairly evident, that he sits in judgment of the man who taught him how to put his marriage back together. I thought that was more to show that parents are generally put off by things their kids do that they themselves did, it’s all a part of letting go and letting your kids become adults.

    I thought it was a great movie, went MUCH deeper into examining the male side of things than your typical rom-com.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      Gosling didn’t help Carell put his marriage back together. He did that in spite of acting like a womanizing idiot for a while. In the end, Carell fully embraced his oneitis and Moore went for it.

      Did Gosling have low character? I’d say yes, but not because he had sex with women who wanted sex. It’s because he spent seven nights a week in a bar, looking for vaginas, using the same exact lines night after night, not appearing to be interested in any conversation of substance, looking at people in love as “pathetic” (his words). He had no apparent job, was a total spendthrift with the money his father left him, and when he got women to his apartment, he always busted out the Dirty Dancing over the head move. I mean, how shallow, how stupid! Did it work to get him laid? Yes, but that’s hardly noble.

      His saving grace with Emma Stone, btw, was that he laughed at himself. She went looking for him as a revenge rebound ONS. He was simply a guy she knew would take her home on short notice.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        On second thought, Gosling definitely helped Carell dress better. Carell spat terrible game at Marisa Tomei, he was lucky she had a “fetish” for his awkward honesty. He does mention sleeping with 8 other women, but we don’t get to see those conquests. Still, Moore is quite peeved when confronted with Tomei at the teacher conference, so jealousy was a factor in raising his SMV in her eyes.

        On a side note, it was clear that Moore thought the guy she’d cheated with was a tool, even though I thought he was rather charming, if a little boring. So much for women bonding to the men they cheat with, at least in this movie. Which, of course, is key – it’s just a movie.

  • BroHamlet

    @Badger

    “BTW, I saw Crazy, Stupid, Love last night, and thought it was interesting how the Steve Carell character cannot accept his daughter’s dating a man he knows to be a womanizer. He tells him he is not a good man.

    So yeah, when push come to shove, mothers and fathers know what’s up.”

    I don’t know if that’s the real lesson. Gosling was a good man (we can debate the pragmatics of the player’s lifestyle but there’s no reason that having one-night stands with women who want to have them is a low-character move), but just hadn’t met the good woman yet where he was comfortable opening up (very rom-com). AND he wouldn’t have met the good woman unless he had his player skills, because:

    -He wouldn’t have hit on Emma Stone to begin with
    -She wouldn’t have found him attractive and gone back to him when she was single

    I agree, there’s no lesson in that movie except that Carell’s character came to Gosling in his moment of need and got a dose of reality, and then flipped on him at the end with some socially programmed nonsense about being a “low life” for giving women what he knew they wanted. IMO Gosling’s character was the best in the movie because it was a believable portrayal of a guy who was legitimately good with women (not a player). At the end he made the choice to be with one girl of her own merits. Though it was chick-flicky in some aspects, at least they mostly allowed you to draw your own conclusions about the characters.

  • Sassy6519

    To make someone like her GIVE IT ALL UP and forgoing any monetary recompense.. is what made my coworkers stand up and give me props.

    Strippers are sluts because they use their bodies to make money. But in choosing who they end up going home with not as a client, makes them more discerning than most women, because there is no ulterior motive in the selection but be there because she wants to be. The ultimate form of submission.

    Whether strippers are datable or marriage material is not the issue. They’re they’re the best gatekeepers due to financial incentive. To open the gate without paying the entry fee – now that’s validation.

    Hmmm. I don’t know what I think about this. I can see how you could make that connection, but it still seems somewhat off. To any of the other guys here, do you think strippers are the most selective women?

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “I’d say a stripper is absolutely 100% more discerning in what she bangs.”

    Y’all have got to read this post:

    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/08/21/sluts-are-not-less-discriminating/

    In any case I think women like to think slutty girls are just going home with whatever low-rent guy spits a line at them.* But really hot women who get around are simply going further with each guy rather than lowering their standards – they get tons of attention from guys and can deftly pick out the most attractive ones and goad them into seducing them.

    It’s exactly parallel to what I said earlier – male players don’t get rejected less, they just keep trying. Promiscuous women have the same opportunities as other women, they just take more advantage (to their long-term detriment).

    *I think this is related to the tendency of women to think of a sleazy guy when they hear the word “player,” when in facts players are the guys who DON’T give you the vibe that they are players. They are the guys who give girls the “he seems like such a good guy!” feeling.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      *I think this is related to the tendency of women to think of a sleazy guy when they hear the word “player,” when in facts players are the guys who DON’T give you the vibe that they are players. They are the guys who give girls the “he seems like such a good guy!” feeling.

      Players give off good guy vibes to get with girls who don’t like players.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      Well, Karen Owen, slut of all sluts, had sex with the highest status athletes on campus. Of course she wasn’t banging nerds. Does that make her discriminating? Is that what we call being a selective gatekeeper? Come on, sluts select the most dominant men, and they want to be treated with extreme dominance by those men. Karen Owen gave her highest rating to the guy who made her black and blue.

      It’s emotionally disordered.

  • Anna

    @ Mike
    I don’t doubt men find it cool that another man has slept with a stripper, after all I know many guys find Victoria Silvstedt attractive and men fall for women who sell their bodies one way or another, whether it is understandable to the rest of us or not.

    I’m sure strippers are “hot”, but I don’t think they’re “hot” in the sense that they are rare. They are hot in a way it is easy for women to be hot. They will obviously have to be slim (I know this is more rare in the US, so understand the fascination there), they have paid for a set of nice breasts and the face can be so-so, with proper makeup and dim lighting. Thing is, I know plenty of girls who could have gone into stripping, knocked out the girls that are already there and earned men’s drooling and cheap money. They just choose not to. Strippers like to maintain a pretense that other girls don’t do this because a) they are not attractive enough, b) they are not confident enough or shy about their bodies. In some cases that might be true, but the majority of the time, the reason is because it is cheap, it is not a lasting profession and it says something about you as a person; you could have used your head to earn a living, but most likely there is not much in there. Even if there is, you’re okay with people assuming it’s not. Strippers false idea or self-convincing of how other girls admire them is perhaps contagious and result in men thinking the same way. That they have more options with men and therefore have done a more important choice when they choose to sleep with someone. In reality, attractive women get hit on all the time. Attractive women with little clothing and an approachable attitude get hit on all the time.
    I was walking home yesterday in boots and a trench coat and a guy on the street tried to chat me up. Although nice that he made the effort, that attention means little. If I wasn’t there at the time, he might have approached another girl. Don’t get me wrong, I’m confident about my looks and I can see that certain girls rarely get approached, but as long as you are over a certain average level, it takes little. Men’s initial attention and their desire is shallow and has little substance.
    Strippers may get the idea that they have made a more important choice since there were many guys who showed interest. But let’s say there are two girls at two different clubs, one sluttily dressed, one dressed modest. In such an arena, as in strip clubs, men have sex on their brains. One girls gets hit on by 5 guys and goes home with 1. The other girl, dressed in a skirt that barely covers her butt, is hit on by 15 guys, and goes home with 1. What matters here is of which quality the additional 10 guys are. Presumably a very low one. As the audience of strip clubs, no offense.

    Guys can date who they want and if they enjoy applause from their mates from dating a stripper, so be it, but it is just as meaningless and a guy with previous stripper relationships will always be in the negative in my eyes.

  • pvw

    Susan:

    That makes sense, and it underscores the idea that very few lawyers are actually litigators, much less F. Lee Bailey types. I imagine the vast majority are in low key corporate law or work in the government.

    My reply:

    Yes, from what I hear, there is a very small cadre of constitutional lawyers who litigate before the Supreme Court–all male, all quite elite. But the fields that can result in litigation before the SC are not limited to the constitututional, so I’m not surprised your friend can be doing that kind of elite law practice work after an average of 15+ years experience.

    Channeling my former colleagues (the ex-prosecutor or the former insurance litigator) who now teach legal research and writing…

    Those with the most litigation experience work for the government (especially prosecutors) or medium to big sized litigation firms, but few of them stay on for long.

    That is definitely where you might find some bitchy female litigators, it seems to me! Can you imagine, every day, every week, dealing with those types of issues–crimes, accidents, etc.

    Some might go onto the bigger or medium sized firms when they finish working for the government. And from what I hear, when they go into large corporate practice, the litigation is really paperwork stuff. Only the high level partners might litigate, and even then, quite often, the goal is to settle.

    And don’t forget that a fair number of people, women included, leave long before they make partner….

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “If my son brought home a stripper I would be mortified, and I would really wonder how he could have chosen a woman who would make her living seducing and tantalizing men. If he was a player, pumping and dumping girls, I would struggle to understand his lack of empathy and moral fiber.”

    Heh, I wasn’t going to ask but since you mentioned it anyway. When you spoke earlier of applauding a guy for having gotten laid for any reason, I didn’t think it included family members : )

    This is a natural reaction. Acknowledging the SDS is one thing, though I’ve personally never understood it nor admired it (too much female input). Endorsing the SDS seems to lead to a very slippery slope. Standards of behavior have dropped so much. It’s like the rug has been pulled right out from under well-meaning parents before they even realize what their kids are up to. Hope I avoid such situations.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      Heh, I wasn’t going to ask but since you mentioned it anyway. When you spoke earlier of applauding a guy for having gotten laid for any reason, I didn’t think it included family members : )

      Whoa, there’s a big difference between getting laid and bringing home a stripper!

      I do remember feeling glad for my son that he had the opportunity to have a meaningful sexual relationship his last two years of high school.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Yohami,
    It’s really interesting that you never gave the impression of a relationship, yet girls would get with you anyway, doing the shit tests and whatnot. I have a feeling the hamster wheels were spinning with many of those girls, trying to make themselves believe that you were actually interested in something besides sex with them. If most of them fell in that 60%, I’m willing to bet they at least thought they wanted a relationship (even if the hypothetical relationship wouldn’t be real, or wouldn’t be healthy). So they’d convince themselves that having sex with you would make you fall for them. Which is all wrong of course. But I know the thought processes of a girl who’s kinda interested in hookups but not interested in being a hardened slut, because I used to be one of those. And so were most of my friends.

    And of course, most girls have a fantasy of taming the wild guy who sleeps around, to make him fall in love with her. More hamster stuff, driven by the desire to prop up one’s own ego. And to get superior genes.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    Correction: Girls who bang strangers at Cancun don’t count it. Most girls would never do that. In fact, I know several girls who are ashamed of their real number ….too low.

    Most of the girls a typical guy will meet are likely to fudge the number downward. That’s the point and that’s why that tongue-in-cheek rule of thumb exists.

    I think you’re correct when you say that many women tolerate “don’t ask, don’t tell” because they fear mentioning their interest in a relationship too early and coming across as clingy or needy. They’re not wrong about that, either.

    Yup, but you know what? I think it bears repeating that life is not always so comfortable as to allow you to sit and say nothing and get what you want. If you aren’t willing to step up, you will have to accept the risks of not stepping up, point blank. Really, men have done lots to understand women’s thought process on these matters and are willing to do much of the work and most good game advice even suggests they take the blame for any and all errors in communication, but ask women to start getting creative about how to handle this and there’s zero desire to budge. It’s pretty comical, actually, but that’s your life as a man. When you are dominant and in demand all this changes, though…

    I consider it unethical for a man who knows, or even suspects that a woman wants a relationship, and pretends in any way to be interested in more than sex when he is not. At best, it’s a lie of omission.

    In my opinion, not telegraphing anything is fine. There is obviously a fine line, but as I said before, it is rarely black and white since it’s a mutual process.

    If there are so many women eager to have sex with dominant guys, why prey on the women who are trying to find a partner and keep their number down? FWIW, the same exact standard applies to women. And that includes women who pretend they don’t want a relationship when they do.

    Agree. It makes things much easier to get to a point where you’re dominant enough that women work for your attention and not the other way around.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BroHamlet

      Most of the girls a typical guy will meet are likely to fudge the number downward.

      Yes, fudge. Not cut it in half.

      most good game advice even suggests they take the blame for any and all errors in communication,

      Really? Can you give some examples?

      In my opinion, not telegraphing anything is fine.

      I didn’t say not telegraphing, I said pretending. Big difference.

  • Mike

    @Badger 488

    Dunno. Of course experiences in life will determine how you associate and emote to it later in life. I only have fond memories of my gradeschool female teachers. I really wanted to boink my grade 9 science teacher.

    Simply to the heart of the matter, my perception of a female gradeschool teacher today would be managing a bunch of hyper irrational little kids by teaching them rational behavior (thus not being an irrational person herself) with ease, taking care of their bumps/bruises on the playground, being sweet, caring and considerate to their needs. Plus when i think of school teacher, the one image that doesn’t enter my mind is the party princess who needs to go out and get herself irish carbombed and sh*tfaced every fri/sat.

    But that’s just me.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Mike,
    The story about strippers is fascinating, an interesting variation of preselection. It’s like the girls were impressed by the fact that you had gotten with women who were highly selective, like that cancelled out the fact that getting with a stripper doesn’t really indicate that you yourself are selective. My head is still reeling at that one, I’m trying to think about my own potential reaction to a guy who’s been with a stripper, because to be honest I’ve never met one IRL.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “Whoa, there’s a big difference between getting laid and bringing home a stripper!”

    You shouldn’t be so judgmental : )

    Just kidding. To me, terms like banging, getting laid, scoring, etc. imply an emotionally limited experience, usually outside of a relationship. When I think of my friends in relationships, or me and my wife, the term “getting laid” doesn’t spring to mind. It’s a bit deeper than that.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “Women just can’t seem to see that it’s not that a man will mark you down for being a “career woman,” it’s just irrelevant to his attraction to you.”

    Badger in fine form again tonight +1

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Badger in fine form again tonight +1

      When isn’t he? I suspect Badger has never once wished he could take a comment back. Whereas I do all the time. Thankfully, I can just go in and hit delete after the fact.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Olive,

    And of course, most girls have a fantasy of taming the wild guy who sleeps around, to make him fall in love with her.

    Is that how it ran on your mind when you were having drunken casual sex hookups?

  • Mike

    @Anna 503

    I think you’re failing to understand the significance of the gatekeeper aspect. The stripper story i told my friends would be meaningless if i said

    “Hey guys, last night i went home with a hot stripper… i paid her $400 bucks to come home with me”

    vs.

    “Hey guys, last night i went home with a hot stripper… and she made me breakfast in the morning too”

    Most strippers won’t go home with anyone because it goes against the financial business model they’ve set up. If they are accustomed to having men of all types to fork over cash for access, hitting it for free is what makes it the story that it is.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “”Most of the girls a typical guy will meet are likely to fudge the number downward.”

    “Yes, fudge. Not cut it in half.”

    As a matter of fact, the last study I read on this made women believe they were being polygraphed, and found that their reported numbers jumped on the order of 2:1 (+70% to be exact). Those are averages, so a good number of women are fudging to a much greater degree.

    “Women who thought their responses might be read said they had had an average of 2.6 sexual partners, compared with 3.4 partners for those who thought their answers were anonymous. But those who thought they would be caught out by the polygraph reported an average of 4.4 partners.

    In contrast, men’s answers did not vary significantly. Those attached to the lie-detector reported an average of 4.0 partners compared with 3.7 for men who thought their answers would be read.”

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3936-fake-liedetector-reveals-womens-sex-lies.html

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      As a matter of fact, the last study I read on this made women believe they were being polygraphed, and found that their reported numbers jumped on the order of 2:1 (+70% to be exact). Those are averages, so a good number of women are fudging to a much greater degree.

      Well, percentage increases are always large on a very small base. Women reporting 4.4 partners with a polygraph are hardly slutty, which speaks to women’s awareness of the SDS rather than their promiscuity.

      I really don’t know the answer to this question, and neither do guys. I do think there’s less censure on women than ever before, which should encourage more forthrightness in reporting. If the average woman is claiming to have had 2.6 partners instead of 4.4, that just lends credence to my theory that only 20% of women are promiscuous.

      Interestingly, the gap between anonymous and polygraph suggests there is a fair amount of denial going on. Women actually believe the lies they tell themselves.

      P.S. That study is 9 years old, has never been replicated, and has a sample size of only 100 women. That doesn’t mean it’s invalid, but it would not be reasonable to draw firm conclusions about female behavior based on that one result.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Yohami,
    I had one drunken casual sex hookup (and you probs know the story. You also know it never escalated to P in V because I wasn’t interested in losing my virginity in a casual setting). That case was really just me being insecure and lonely and sad and being happy that some guy had paid attention to me. Validation and all that. But he grossed me out by pushing me too far. That’s why I never should’ve gone for hookups in the first place, because I can’t handle them. I always feel crappy afterwards.

    With the online dating site dude (who was right before casual BJ dude), it was definitely a taming the wild man complex. I’ve always thought he stopped talking to me because I didn’t put out… now I’m wondering if it’s because I let him take me too far. On the other hand, he was probably never interested in anything besides sex in the first place, and I would’ve been labeled a cocktease if I hadn’t let him take me as far as he did (which, at the time, was as far as I’d gone). So who knows. I definitely dodged a major bullet though, he turned out to be really shady and I met my current BF soon after I stopped talking to him.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Susan,

    “Thankfully, I can just go in and hit delete after the fact.”

    Are you saying you talk your comment count down? Doesn’t count if you make a comment about a gay guy, if you’re out of the area code, if you post outside your database?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      Are you saying you talk your comment count down?

      First guffaw of the day, thank you. Actually, I’ve become rather paranoid since I discovered the Flying Monkeys were lurking. I need to be really careful about context, or if someone misinterprets what I say, to highlight the discrepancy and correct it. It sucks, it’s like worrying my phones are tapped.

  • Anna

    @ Mike
    Still, it seems you’re saying the situation is either:
    – Strippers are as good as hookers, and unlikely to have sex for free (which makes it shady that you are into them)
    – Strippers really don’t have sex so much
    Or most likely you mean:
    – Strippers get undressed for shady guys but go home with decent guys.
    No – they are just as likely, if not more, to go home with someone they met in a club, whether it’d be stripclub or nightclub. Most guys would say they never do, as they themselves haven’t brought a stripper home and these drooling losers view them as “unattainable”, but as these kind of girls DO participate in casual sex, the only reason your encounter would be special was if they usually leave their club of “work” and go to a regular shady club to find someone there instead. But they don’t. She either has a point of view where she always wants to gain money off men, which would make her a prostitute. Or she has the complete distinction between the two, where sex always will be for free and due to her validation-seeking nature, there is no reason she should be more selective with the free sex. I think you, or most likely your buddies, were hoping for a middle ground with a stripper that is thinking “My hookerish nature would normally never participate in events with men I cannot earn from but you are so hot I simply have to go home with you”.

  • Mike

    @Olive 512

    Mike,
    The story about strippers is fascinating, an interesting variation of preselection. It’s like the girls were impressed by the fact that you had gotten with women who were highly selective, like that cancelled out the fact that getting with a stripper doesn’t really indicate that you yourself are selective. My head is still reeling at that one, I’m trying to think about my own potential reaction to a guy who’s been with a stripper, because to be honest I’ve never met one IRL.

    I do hope it doesn’t make me look like a bad guy or a lesser being that i accidentally discovered how to game a stripper? :S

    Keep in mind, that purely accidental discovery and subsequent dance with a few strippers was only after 10+ years of incel and getting nothing by being ‘the nice guy’. Perhaps if a woman snagged me in my earlier years, the whole stripper thing would have well been avoided.

    And it’s not like i wanted to bring any home to mom or marry any. But i never treated them like dirt or disposable either. It just happens that their own profession worked against them too.

    While i was ‘seeing’ a stripper, i would often come by their club where they worked and have a drink while i waited. Usually this meant waiting for them to give other men lap dances. In the meantime other strippers would hit on me, and if i was particularly bored, i’d throw a few bucks their way (girl needs to go to college ya know) and get a lap dance from them. When the stripper i was ‘seeing’ happened to notice i was being taken care of by another woman (and giving her money) they would have a nuclear meltdown and that was the end of it. I found it quite ironic that they held such contempt for me, while they had no compunction about taking other men back into the VIP.

    Live by the sword…

    I would never consider a stripper or anyone from any sex industry for any kind of LTR. But when regular run of the mill women couldn’t give two flying f*cks about me, strippers fill the void. Could you blame me?

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “The story about strippers is fascinating, an interesting variation of preselection. It’s like the girls were impressed by the fact that you had gotten with women who were highly selective, like that cancelled out the fact that getting with a stripper doesn’t really indicate that you yourself are selective. My head is still reeling at that one, I’m trying to think about my own potential reaction to a guy who’s been with a stripper, because to be honest I’ve never met one IRL.”

    Given that olive has never met a stripper, I wager that this is a bit of stereotyping strippers as desperate and low-class.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    The one thing that irked me about CSL is that Moore never once apologized to Carrell for shagging Kevin Bacon, or admitted direct fault for her infidelity (it was all flowerly “we’ve grown apart” language). All of the fault was put on his shoulders for not being “manly” enough.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      All of the fault was put on his shoulders for not being “manly” enough.

      Agreed. I was half expecting Athol Kay to show up in the movie.

  • Anna

    @ Mike
    I also have to point out that what you mainly emphasized was the stripper being more selective, rejecting a huge number of men, which is the point I disagree on. The fact that most men don’t have the guts to make a proper move but you do, is not an argument either in my book, because the men you’re competing with in such a setting is hardly a great match.

    “But in choosing who they end up going home with not as a client, makes them more discerning than most women, because there is no ulterior motive in the selection but be there because she wants to be”

    I see what you’re trying to say, but it sounds as if most women would have an ulterior motive, preferably financial, for going home with the guy. If a stripper goes home with a guy because she wants to, she’ll be…most women. You are saying that she makes a specific important choice by going home with a man, indicating that she has an option where she would be earning. If she is not a hooker, charging you was never an option. If she wants sex, as most people do from time to time, going home with you for free was the only alternative.

  • Mike

    @Badger / Byron 514

    “Women just can’t seem to see that it’s not that a man will mark you down for being a “career woman,” it’s just irrelevant to his attraction to you.”

    Badger in fine form again tonight +1

    You guys ever take a look at the online profiles of most women. What’s the first major things they’re listing and crowing about.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Mike and Badger,
    Yeah sorry for my phrasing. I definitely didn’t mean to make it sound like I was judging or shaming Mike for hanging with strippers, he’s not a shady guy. I just think the coworker reaction is really interesting. Also this:

    When the stripper i was ‘seeing’ happened to notice i was being taken care of by another woman (and giving her money) they would have a nuclear meltdown and that was the end of it.

    Female intrasexual competition I guess? I wonder if that reaction was purely from a business perspective or an emotional attachment perspective. Like Badger points out, I’ve never met a stripper, so I have no clue how any of it works.

  • Mike

    @Anna

    (which makes it shady that you are into them)

    Yup, i guess i’m shady. I must be because you said so. How thick is your Bible?

    And you’ve totally lost my point. Reread $519. But im done with this so if you still don’t get it, i’ll let someone else clarify it for you if anyone cares to.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Anna,
    I don’t think Mike is trying to sound like the arrogant and/or shady guy you seem to be making him out to be. He was just sharing his story about coworkers’ reactions to new information, which was that he’s been with strippers. I’m trying to figure out why they had that reaction, as my own gut reaction, I think, would be “ew, strippers?” But then again, that comes from a place of cattiness, and probably intrasexual competition, to a certain extent. Maybe the coworkers aren’t as catty as me… as I’ve said before, I’m a great shit-talker. :-P In all seriousness, been trying to work on that. It gets you points with the ladies, but not with the men.

    BTW, Mike, don’t take my gut reaction personally. I’ve already read your stripper stories in other threads, it doesn’t make me think you’re a lesser person. I’m more interested in WHY I have that gut reaction, and how it compares to the gut reaction of others.

  • Mike

    @Olive

    I never got the sense that you were shaming me dear. Not for a second. You exude something rather extraordinary. I can’t put my finger on it, but if i could bottle it, i’d make a fortune. Hence the appeal in cloning you…

    To your question.. it was most likely purely business perspective. They know specifically where lines are drawn, and the clubs are completely business turf. Girls who have regulars who come in and drop loads of cash on them (and only them) make it well known to their coworkers who are off limits.

    It didn’t apply in this case because i was never paying for it in the first place and she must have simply assumed i wouldn’t go with any other girls, the implication being that if i was going to spend money on a lapdance, it would be with HER and no one else, but completely disregarding that since we were not ‘an item’ and that she had no issue doing her job with other guys, i was not entitled to the same? oh well, as the old saying goes ‘if it wasn’t meant to be…’

  • Anna

    @ Mike
    I said IF your idea was that strippers = hookers and usually charge for sex, then it would be shady. I know that isn’t your impression, but I had to list it as an alternative. I’m not religious, but I think men who go for hookers are considered shady by most non-prostitute women. Thanks for picking out one line and take it out of context, rather than responding.
    I agree that it is rare for a stripper to go home with someone from a club. I don’t agree that they are choosier, have a general financial nature or more power than other women.

    @ Olive
    I don’t think Mike is being arrogant, I think he was just proud of that one scenario, hence the description of his mates admiration’ and the long outline on why the stripper must have been choosy. I’m not trying to ruin that joy. It’s just that guys on here can have a lot of opinions of female preferences, how choosy we are, how into assholes, how vulgar. If a guy used to be dating a stripper, than would be turn off for me and I felt the need to explain why as it seemed they didn’t get it. If it was me (or another woman) I bet I’d get guys on my back going “how could you possibly sleep with a man with no respect for himself or you?”. Yes I accept the double standards regarding men having more casual sex. But not the nature of the partners. I think guys always will be proud to bring an attractive girl home, even if she is slutty or just random in her picking (you’re lucky, not talented). But they’re constantly trying to rationalize it and explain it to girls here, so on some level they care.

  • Susie

    I really don’t get it..Orlando Bloom and Johnny Depp are not exactly the perfect examples of masculinity…and yet there is something about them that gets women everywhere swooning…

    I disagree. I fell in love with Orlando Bloom during the first movie of POC (Pirates of the Carribean: Curse of the Black Pearl) and I loved him in LOTR (Lord of the Rings). Johnny Depp exudes quiet confidence in his style and in his acting. They both have a certain masculine streak that I like. It’s also great that both have “dark features” (brown eyes, dark hair, facial structure).

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    I’m very skeptical about this sort of woman making a good sex or relationship partner for by far most men. As well I tend to denigrate men who’d go for submissive roles, per feminism, in relationships. And take advantage of them, as in fuck their wives.

    She is a devoted wife and mother of two. Her husband is Chief Counsel for a very large company. She is the primary breadwinner, as she rakes in the big bucks. That is true even with her working half time. Their marriage is stable and monogamous.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    You exude something rather extraordinary.

    Lol you flatter me! I’m glad you didn’t think I was shaming you though.

    It didn’t apply in this case because i was never paying for it in the first place and she must have simply assumed i wouldn’t go with any other girls, the implication being that if i was going to spend money on a lapdance, it would be with HER and no one else, but completely disregarding that since we were not ‘an item’ and that she had no issue doing her job with other guys, i was not entitled to the same?

    Yeah this is what makes me think it wasn’t just a business thing. A nuclear meltdown over one lost customer? This is key in remembering that many women cannot compartmentalize sex and emotions, they get all tangled up in each other. So even strippers, who make a business prospect out of sex, are not immune to the failure to compartmentalize. The more I hear about it, the more I realize casual sex is just so bad for women, as a general rule (though I’m sure there are exceptions). Stupid Sexual Revolution.

  • Anna

    @ Doug
    I hope I don’t have to excuse myself for this, as the current Government works against everything I stand for and I have been politically active on the opposite side. The current left-wing government is far left of American socialism and is anti-capitalist, looking to control most of the business taking place. Many investors and entrepreneurs who started up in Norway have moved abroad. If someone of it is due to this I don’t know, I believe the majority have done so because the Norwegian legislation is very complicated, changes constantly and makes it difficult for financiers. It is mostly overly high taxes and difficulty getting paperwork through that causes them to move abroad. Some of Norway’s richest men have changed citizenship because of this.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anna

      I hope I don’t have to excuse myself for this, as the current Government works against everything I stand for and I have been politically active on the opposite side.

      You certainly don’t. You’re my guest and owe Doug no explanations. Besides, his remark is completely off-topic. This post is not about Scandinavian feminism.

  • Mike

    @Olive

    I’m trying to figure out why they had that reaction, as my own gut reaction, I think, would be “ew, strippers?” But then again, that comes from a place of cattiness, and probably intrasexual competition, to a certain extent.

    Ahh, the devil is in the details. My coworkers are men. Men understand the old maxim “A key that can open many locks is called a master key, but a lock that can be opened by many keys is a shitty lock”. They high fived me (believe me i don’t put the same level of pride in this as they do) because none of them could even imagine attempting it, much less trying and succeeding.

    Women have heard my story too. When they first hear it, they kinda gimme ‘that look’.. but when i put it in the context of the 10 year incel drought i had, and the night in question that it all started on then they’re more forgiving. And most of my female coworkers finally came around and were just happy that i got laid because i started replying with ‘Good Morning’ instead of ‘What’s so good about it!’ when she would say ‘Good Morning’ to me.

    In case you didn’t know the particulars, I was in a foul and pissy mood, angry that i had just been at my friends 30th birthday party in a downtown club and i was the only sap there without a partner, 3rd wheel times a gazillion. I was just fed up of my lot in life so i left early and went to the rippers just to blow off steam, and get some attention (validation if you will). Little did i know that my rage would turn me into Mr. Smoov.

    But that’s all in the past now. Really speaking, including the 4 strippers i had in the 2 year run, and my 1 true love/divorce partner, i’ve had 5 lifetime partners. Am i manwhore?

  • Will

    Wow, I can’t believe I read the whole blog.

    You gotta boil it down to the essentials. It’s like Cube says, “Life ain’t nothin’ but bitches and money.”

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I don’t think Mike is being arrogant, I think he was just proud of that one scenario, hence the description of his mates admiration’ and the long outline on why the stripper must have been choosy.

    Yeah but weren’t the coworkers female? That’s what I sensed from the story. Which makes it very interesting.

    If a guy used to be dating a stripper, than would be turn off for me and I felt the need to explain why as it seemed they didn’t get it.

    Right, it would produce the same gut reaction for me. But I think it’s useful to think about why. Why is it so uncomfortable to think about a guy getting with strippers? Is it because he’s a low-life shady dude? Is it because you think he can’t get anything better? I’m genuinely curious. Like I said, for me it comes from a place of cattiness, like “ew strippers gross me out and I judge them.” But I see that other girls probably have different reactions.

    I think guys always will be proud to bring an attractive girl home, even if she is slutty or just random in her picking (you’re lucky, not talented).

    So you don’t think it takes skill to get with a hot chick? I dunno, I think hot chicks get hit on all the time, so it takes a very particular skill set to get one to go home with you, since they can basically have their pick of interested guys. I think this is maybe what’s annoying Mike, the assumption that he’s never had any skills with the ladies, that he’s just a shady character. And that he should feel “lucky” whenever he gets a hot chick.

  • Mike C

    I’m trying to figure out why they had that reaction, as my own gut reaction, I think, would be “ew, strippers?” But then again, that comes from a place of cattiness, and probably intrasexual competition, to a certain extent. Maybe the coworkers aren’t as catty as me… as I’ve said before, I’m a great shit-talker. :-P In all seriousness, been trying to work on that. It gets you points with the ladies, but not with the men.

    BTW, Mike, don’t take my gut reaction personally. I’ve already read your stripper stories in other threads, it doesn’t make me think you’re a lesser person. I’m more interested in WHY I have that gut reaction, and how it compares to the gut reaction of others.

    Strippers make their money/EARN THEIR LIVELIHOODS, put food on the table, buy their coke, by SELLING THEIR SEXUALITY, selling their touch (in the case of dances), selling the fantasy that you are an attractive, desirable guy even for 5 minutes.

    So the point is a guy who can get it for FREE, get their sexuality, get their touch and a whole lot more, and get authentic attraction and desirability are getting something that 99%+ of guys have to pay for. So they are selective in that sense whether or not you think their selective filters are fucked. My experience is they are the most likely to go for over the top dominant asshole game.

    Anyways, I think the de facto female reaction to a stripper is connected to their status, perceived sluttiness (and many are), hence the “ewww” factor whereas guys are impressed because they know only a small minority of guys can successfully pull one instead of just being another paying customer.

  • Mike

    @Anna
    >Thanks for picking out one line and take it out of context, rather than responding.

    You considered me shady. I simply had no desire to try and change your opinion of me at that point as it would have been a complete waste of my time. I don’t intend to develop carpal tunnel syndrome trying to prove to you that i’m not shady because i don’t follow whatever moral standards you happen to fly by.

    ps-some strippers are prostitutes. some are not. does not invalidate the difference of taking them home without financial incentive. ie.
    non prostitute stripper=will not go home with you payment or otherwise
    prostitute stripper(escort)=will not go home with you unless you pay

    in fact there feels like some kind of correlation here but i can’t connect the dots, maybe someone can help out, but it sounds very similar to a woman who will make some men wait many dates before offering up sex vs. throwing it to the cad on the same night. ie. the cad does not have to pay to play.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Mike,

    Ahh, the devil is in the details. My coworkers are men.

    Ah sneaky, I missed that detail lol (I mean geez, go take a nap for 3 hours, come back and there’s 100 more comments to sift through, I forget stuff :-P). The “nuclear meltdown” story is still interesting though. Like I said, it reveals a lot about the nature of women and casual sex.

    But that’s all in the past now. Really speaking, including the 4 strippers i had in the 2 year run, and my 1 true love/divorce partner, i’ve had 5 lifetime partners. Am i manwhore?

    At the age of 35? No way.

    Anna,
    I have a comment in moderation for you at 547. Disregard my first bit, it’s about Mike’s coworkers being female (and they were not… oops).

  • Mike

    MikeC 547

    So the point is a guy who can get it for FREE, get their sexuality, get their touch and a whole lot more, and get authentic attraction and desirability are getting something that 99%+ of guys have to pay for. So they are selective in that sense whether or not you think their selective filters are fucked. My experience is they are the most likely to go for over the top dominant asshole game.

    BINGO.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Olive

    For me personally, I would be really grossed out to learn that a guy I was dating had slept with a stripper. That’s just gross in my opinion. It doesn’t stem from cattiness with me. It stems from the fact that I wouldn’t want his penis anywhere near me. I don’t want to go where a stripper has been before. I don’t want any stripper’s sloppy seconds. I just don’t.

    Again, I understand the allure of a stripper to guys and how “supposedly selective” these women are, but I’m not buying it hook, line, and sinker. Saying strippers are the most selective out of all women just doesn’t seem correct. If that’s the case, regular women like me are screwed.

    I should just start getting my cats now and be done with this.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Mike C,
    Thanks for the info. You’re correct that the female gut reaction to strippers comes from a place of status judgment, or what I called “cattiness.” It also comes from a place of ignorance… most women don’t frequent strip clubs, so combine that with the media image of strippers, and they have no clue what the atmosphere is like, or that strippers give services for free only to the top dominant dudes.

    There’s also a Christian shaming aspect. I grew up in a very conservative small town, so I doubt I received very many positive messages about stripping. A funny, slightly unrelated story, though. There’s this great billboard in the middle of my state: one side is an ad for a strip club, the other side displays a Christian pro-life message (pregnant? your baby’s heart is already beating). I feel like someone did that on purpose lol.

  • WarmWoman

    Doug1-I concur with Sue that some feminists support prostitution and porn as women taking control of their sexuality. Nina Hartley, a porn star, considers herself to be a sex positive feminist. I can also see why some people find it degrading, because you’re giving your body away so freely.

    Sue-I’m not a parent, but I can’t picture myself feeling proud of a son that’s a player. I can’t say what I would really do in the situation until I become a parent, but I definitely would strive to encourage both my daughter and my son to have meaningful sex with select partner(s).

  • Sassy6519

    She danced in one of the highest end strip places in Manhattan, and was way beautiful. She was also somewhat insecure, had absent daddy issues, and needed my help, and loved and responded to it from me big time.

    Again Doug1, am I supposed to care? The fact that you banged a stripper doesn’t help you in my eyes. Go ahead and get all the high fives from your buddies that you want, but I literally couldn’t give two shits.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Susan

    I’ve wondered aloud here a few times what the role of fathers might be in the formation of a woman’s triggers. I know at least one young woman who seeks a [beta] guy much like her dad :) This can’t be unusual.

    In my case it was that my father was a cad, and I didn’t want to get cheated on and screwed over after I have a kid with a guy. I felt this strongly from the time before I hit puberty, so maybe it changed my wiring somewhat.

    Also, I’ve gathered that many Asian women go for Caucasian beta guys. It’s true of my son’s gf, and it sounds like you did as well. This must have some cultural relevance re values or similarity to men in the woman’s family.

    The cultural relevance is that intelligence is a huge “alpha” characteristic in Asian cultures. Anime/manga often feature the class president or the guy with the highest test scores as the one who gets all the girls, and it is often true. Also hard work, ethics and “classiness” (ability to play a classical instrument for example) play into the perception quite a bit. Nerdiness actually works FOR a guy rather than against him. The different cultures just value different things.

  • Mike

    @Sassy 553

    Saying strippers are the most selective out of all women just doesn’t seem correct. If that’s the case, regular women like me are screwed.

    Hope that’s not the way it seems, it’s not what i intended. I was just trying to relay the male perspective of the level of difficulty required in coaxing one back home when it goes counter to their business model.

    That’s just gross in my opinion. It doesn’t stem from cattiness with me. It stems from the fact that I wouldn’t want his penis anywhere near me. I don’t want to go where a stripper has been before. I don’t want any stripper’s sloppy seconds. I just don’t.

    This is more a matter of perception. It’s your perception and probably many others, i won’t argue it. But im here to claim that while some are cracked out/drug/disease infested oh whats the term.. oh yeah NASALT. They’re human beings too, making a questionable life choice to be sure.. but if you think on a biological level

    -isn’t any PinV after the first technically sloppy seconds?
    -testing clean for STD’s and typically being more proactive about using protection

    Maybe i don’t like lawyers with a passion. Should i disqualify any woman who’s slept with a lawyer, she had his dirty paralegal seed in her? ewww. You project you’re disdain of her job/class/social status against me. That’s fair i suppose. But on the question of grossness, as long as the test comes out negative, where does the gross factor come in? Or is this a case of not how many partners i’ve had, but the number of theoretical partners she’s had that are now being tacked onto my penis, because if thats the case, then we’re talking about exponential branching sex partners. So a good girl who’s slept with 1 cad who nailed 200 women (sorry Yohami) is now being tarred as ewwww because she now has the possible contagion of all of those 200 women that penis has entered?

    Fascinating!

  • Warmwoman

    What does a CAD stand for? Yes, I do think we learn about men from our dads.

    For the person who said

    “I’m sure strippers are “hot”, but I don’t think they’re “hot” in the sense that they are rare”

    A lot of strippers are average looking IMO, but beauty is subjective. My stripper friend (who is in her 40’s) says that the prettiest strippers don’t always make the most money. I don’t think I’ve seen an overweight stripper, but not all are necessarily slim or look like they’ve walked out of PlayBoy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      the prettiest strippers don’t always make the most money.

      One study showed that strippers on the Pill make only half the tips as those not on the Pill, when the latter are ovulating. It’s because men can smell the fertility. I find that fascinating.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    “most good game advice even suggests they take the blame for any and all errors in communication,”

    Really? Can you give some examples?

    A buddy of mine got me reading some of the game literature out there a few years back, and I found it kind of fascinating because since I go out a lot, I could see a few people starting to use the concepts (even lines) straight from these books in real life. At the time a lot of it seemed to me like guys were still just trying too hard but at least now they had some kind of strategy. Obviously there have been some advancements since then and different schools of thought have come about now that it’s started to become mainstream.

    Anyways back to the topic- I will have to dig up some examples One of the concepts you will see repeatedly in forum posts and about game is that girls operate on the concept of plausible deniability. It’s the idea that as long as she doesn’t feel like a slut, most anything is possible within her boundaries, but she always needs a mental out to avoid looking like she was getting with you because she wanted to if for whatever reason she feels uncomfortable about the situation. She can even use that out after the fact to excuse her actions.

    In all that I’ve read of the mainstream game forums and blogs like RSDNation among others, the girl’s instinct is never questioned. If she blows up at you for “tricking” her or decides that you “took advantage” of her, that is your fault because you didn’t handle the situation correctly. This obviously extends to the early make or break relationship situation we were discussing and about the “player” label. It’s an easy mental out for a girl just to call you a player and flip the fault to you regardless of what actually happened. Even early in the book The Mystery Method, it’s mentioned that if you do something wrong and she feels regret (I think “buyer’s remorse” was the actual term), she can claim that she was wronged, even if she just went too far and felt guilty. Basically, the advice I’ve seen out there about that is that there is no advice, just that as the guy you needed to be smooth enough to take responsibility for creating the situation and effectively keep her from worrying about her reputation. If you didn’t, you failed, regardless of whose fault it was.

    Really, I could never get behind a lot of that advice because it comes from the wrong angle altogether and it just opens you up to accept blame where it’s not your fault.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike

    If you didn’t want to sleep with lawyers, I wouldn’t hold it against you. Everyone is entitled to use their own criteria when deciding who to date/sleep with. I simply wouldn’t associate myself with a man who has slept with a stripper. No hard feelings man, and that sentiment isn’t directed towards you.

    Or is this a case of not how many partners i’ve had, but the number of theoretical partners she’s had that are now being tacked onto my penis, because if thats the case, then we’re talking about exponential branching sex partners. So a good girl who’s slept with 1 cad who nailed 200 women (sorry Yohami) is now being tarred as ewwww because she now has the possible contagion of all of those 200 women that penis has entered?

    Somewhat. That’s why I don’t sleep around or fraternize with players. Being with a guy who has bedded countless women isn’t a good bet for a successful long term relationship. I’d prefer a guy who has 10 or less partners overall, and I’d also prefer for none of those partners to be prostitutes or strippers. That’s just me.

  • BroHamlet

    @Sassy

    For me personally, I would be really grossed out to learn that a guy I was dating had slept with a stripper

    Good grief, people. I really can’t believe I’m typing this but Strippers are People Too.

    I know girls who have danced in the past and did it only because the money is really (really) good. The choice is up to the girl as to whether she does backroom “services”, and most of them don’t. They think the minority of dancers who do those things are gross, too. I get that you want to be perceived as honorable and above all of that, but really, all this “strippers are disgusting” posturing seems kind of overblown. If you were talking about escorts, maybe I’d understand, but I think hating on strippers is kind of pointless, because those aren’t the girls doing real dirt for a living.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Brohamlet

    What’s the problem? I’m not claiming that strippers aren’t people too. What I am saying is that I don’t want to date a guy who has slept with a stripper. Why is that a bad thing?

  • WarmWoman

    Sassy-I think you’re entitled to your preferences. Just like how some men would refuse to date overweight women, there’s nothing wrong with deciding what you won’t put up with.

    BroHamlet-I agree that strippers are people too and I wouldn’t judge them. I have a stripper friend, who appears to be very sweet, married and a good mom of a 10 year old boy. It’s not something I’m comfortable doing though.

  • BroHamlet

    @Sassy

    What’s the problem? I’m not claiming that strippers aren’t people too. What I am saying is that I don’t want to date a guy who has slept with a stripper. Why is that a bad thing?

    Just seems like a really extreme reaction, like they’re all dirty or something, haha. I’m not here to tell you to change your mind. Have you ever known a girl who danced? I bet that would change things for you.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Brohamlet

    Have you ever known a girl who danced? I bet that would change things for you.

    I have actually. I still know her. She is a train wreck and I keep my distance from her. Drama follows her wherever she goes, and I want no part of it.

    I’m not saying all strippers are train wrecks, but a good enough portion of them are for me to take notice. I simply wouldn’t associate myself with a guy who felt the desire to associate himself with one.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Brohamlet

    Yes, I have, and she was a disaster. Never again I say.

  • Rum

    For the ladies: Do you have any idea how hard/rare/difficult it is if you are a guy to get a stripper to fix you breakfast? For free? Of course you don’t. That is why your opining on this subject is graded by the men here as less than worthless.
    Sorry for the ill humor but very few of you have the slightest clue as to what it feels like (is like) to be a young horny guy who can get Zero interest from any woman no matter what he does (as long as it is legal and nice).. And that is indeed the prolonged initiation rite into the realities of the SMP for virtually all men in todays world.
    A stripper, otoh, floats on an illimitable ocean of being wanted. She is wanted even if she is in a coma for some reason. She is wanted just for breathing. It is true that best quality men might not want to marry her. Cry me a river. But for a good taste of the what it is like to be a typical young man in the SMP, wave a wand and turn a stripper into a 70 year old fattie and ask her how much she enjoys her life now.
    I have known what it feels like to be unwanted and to be wanted. Wanted is better.

  • Sassy6519

    For the ladies: Do you have any idea how hard/rare/difficult it is if you are a guy to get a stripper to fix you breakfast? For free? Of course you don’t. That is why your opining on this subject is graded by the men here as less than worthless.
    Sorry for the ill humor but very few of you have the slightest clue as to what it feels like (is like) to be a young horny guy who can get Zero interest from any woman no matter what he does (as long as it is legal and nice).. And that is indeed the prolonged initiation rite into the realities of the SMP for virtually all men in todays world.
    A stripper, otoh, floats on an illimitable ocean of being wanted. She is wanted even if she is in a coma for some reason. She is wanted just for breathing. It is true that best quality men might not want to marry her. Cry me a river. But for a good taste of the what it is like to be a typical young man in the SMP, wave a wand and turn a stripper into a 70 year old fattie and ask her how much she enjoys her life now.
    I have known what it feels like to be unwanted and to be wanted. Wanted is better.

    **Slow Claps**

  • Mike

    @Sassy 562

    If you didn’t want to sleep with lawyers, I wouldn’t hold it against you.

    But i’m not a stripper.

    I didn’t say the girl herself was a lawyer, i said she slept with one. My projected hatred of lawyers should then theoretically invalidate the non-lawyer girl from being any kind of LTR prospect then, or at least thats what im hearing.

    Let me draw it out.

    Good girl is a virgin.
    Good girl meets lawyer dude, sleeps with him.
    Her count is now 1.
    Lawyer has slept with ? between 1 and 200 women, undetermined. i can only assume 200 because of his profession, looks and swagger, and because lawyers are inherently evil and soul sucking scum. j/k

    I meet this good girl with a body count of 1.
    Near virginal status. Perfect HUS material. Low body count.
    She tells me she has slept with only 1 partner and tells me he was a lawyer who works for Wolfram & Heart.

    Using your methodology i should:
    – assume she is disease infested because i am convinced all lawyers have no conscious and tap everything that moves and are drug users to boot.
    – imagine that her vagina now has the taint of 200 other womens vagina’s transferred there by the one lawyer penis that even an STD check cannot wash away
    – that i should not even wish to be with this 1 body count woman, because she would be ‘sloppy seconds’ with a lawyers taint.
    – that i should say I simply wouldn’t associate myself with a woman who has slept with a lawyer.

    The strippers i was with you have no idea what they’re lives were. They could have been first timers, never left the club with anyone before, etc.. but the projection of what you believe of their profession is what would prevent you from dating someone like me because i happened across being with one during a lonely stretch of my life when ‘good girls’ just happened not to give a sh*t about me being a sexual being.

    I’m not trying to change your opinion because i do understand where you’re coming from. there are no hard feelings. i just want you to see it from another point of view. you don’t have to like it, just hopefully understand it. you probably already did.

  • Mike

    In case you didn’t see it, the ‘good girl’ in the parable is me=my experience of incel. The lawyer is the stripper. The person discounting the good girl because she went out with the nasty lawyer is…

    It’s a one hand clapping type of thing. Or falling tree?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike

    Gotcha. No worries man. I know not all strippers are bad, but I wouldn’t necessarily have the desire or the time to interview whatever stripper a guy has banged to determine, for myself, whether or not she is a train wreck. I’d just rather associate myself with men who haven’t slept with strippers so that I don’t have to do all that legwork.

  • BroHamlet

    @Sassy

    @ Brohamlet

    Yes, I have, and she was a disaster. Never again I say.

    Fair enough, sounds like that’s why you have the reaction you do.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Sassy,

    For me personally, I would be really grossed out to learn that a guy I was dating had slept with a stripper. That’s just gross in my opinion. It doesn’t stem from cattiness with me. It stems from the fact that I wouldn’t want his penis anywhere near me. I don’t want to go where a stripper has been before. I don’t want any stripper’s sloppy seconds. I just don’t.

    So I think you might be talking about a few things here. First, the health perspective, which is totally legit. If the guy has slept with a stripper, it’s good to test for things like STDs. But let’s say he’s cleared. Now what? It’s still kinda gross, yes? Maybe because the idea of a guy sleeping with a woman who’s slept with a ton of men is, on principle, kinda yucky. But hey, people sleep around all the time. I’m not a huge fan of the knowledge that my man has slept with a woman who slept around, but it’s interesting to wonder why. Does it come from a preselection type thing, that the guy wasn’t choosy about sleeping with an inexperienced girl, that he picked an experienced girl, because he theoretically “couldn’t do any better”? Does it come from a cultural image of all that strippers represent? It’s interesting to think about, on an intellectual level. I dunno, I haven’t really thought about whether or not I’d date a guy who slept with a stripper. If I found out after we started dating, I’d like to think I wouldn’t automatically dump him.

    Again, I understand the allure of a stripper to guys and how “supposedly selective” these women are, but I’m not buying it hook, line, and sinker. Saying strippers are the most selective out of all women just doesn’t seem correct. If that’s the case, regular women like me are screwed.

    I should just start getting my cats now and be done with this.

    Nah I don’t think you need to worry about competing with strippers. You’re a relationship girl, strippers are purely selling casual sex for money. You aren’t offering the same “services,” if you will. If that sounds really dry and economic of me, I apologize. I just mean that A) I’m sure guys won’t pick strippers over you, and B) you don’t need to worry about finding a guy who’s never slept with a stripper. I feel like many of them, especially the ones in their 20s, have not.

  • Mike

    Susan>One study showed that strippers on the Pill make only half the tips as those not on the Pill, when the latter are ovulating. It’s because men can smell the fertility. I find that fascinating.

    I read that story too. Much should be made of pheromones within this context. Major producers of perfumes & colognes don’t spend billions just to bottle tap water with some dye in it.

  • Mike

    @Sassy 569
    > I’d just rather associate myself with men who haven’t slept with strippers so that I don’t have to do all that legwork.

    Touche’.

    But if you and me were dating, and you asked me honestly about my partner count, and i told you that it was 5, and that came out (the whole story) and i had an STD test that showed i’m clear, what would the result be?

    End of date with a glass of red in my face OR flutters for honesty being the best policy?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike

    Honestly, I’d probably continue with the date politely, but let you know I wasn’t interested in seeing you further at the end. There is no need to waste red wine in that scenario.

    You seem like a great guy, but that would be a major turn off, similar to hickey guy. It’s just my gut reaction to the situation. Once again, don’t take this personally.

  • WarmWoman

    Olive: “, the health perspective, which is totally legit. If the guy has slept with a stripper, it’s good to test for things like STDs.”

    I had a colleague (a psychologist) that told me, “Sex workers are probably more cleaner than the average girl. Those women get tested regularly, while the average sexually active girl avoids it.”

    Hmmm..

  • BroHamlet

    @Olive

    If the guy has slept with a stripper, it’s good to test for things like STDs.

    It’s beer time, so I won’t be able to respond, but this is what I was talking about. Strippers don’t have sex with people for a living, so even though I would recommend if you are going to date a guy you should make sure you both have a clean bill of health, you come off sounding way over-cautious. Really, there are girls that go to the bars every weekend who probably have more sex than a lot of strippers do. Just sayin’, you girls are are inflating this thing a bit in my opinion.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    WarmWoman,
    Really good point. I read a study about chlamydia and gonorrhea for a class… apparently 67% of the people who tested positive for either disease didn’t think they were at risk. So that tells you the average sexually active person probably doesn’t get tested, because there is no perceived risk.

    Which is why I think the gut reaction to strippers is rooted in something else. Preselection stuff? The public image of strippers? Knowledge of a stripper lifestyle? A guy who sleeps with four strippers because he’s tired of a dry spell is not the same as a cad who’s slept with fifty women. The second is a turnoff for me. The first? I dunno, I’m thinking about it.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    BroHamlet,
    Understand I’m not trying to sound that way. Like I said, it comes from a place of ignorance. Would you believe me if I said I didn’t know that strippers don’t routinely have sex with customers? I’m not kidding, I know nothing about strippers. I only know about the stereotypes, because I don’t go to strip clubs. Badger was right about me.

  • Sassy6519

    With regards to strippers, I’m not only considering the amount of customers she possibly sleeps with. What about all the men she potentially sleeps with when she isn’t working? How likely is it for a stripper to engage in frequent ONS outside of work? If she is as attractive as men claim strippers are, how likely is it that she gets fawned over at the grocery store, post office, library, etc? What are the chances that she is banging other men while not at work? I’d assume it’s pretty high if she is getting approached a lot in general.

  • Mike

    @Sassy 574

    You seem like a great guy, but that would be a major turn off, similar to hickey guy. It’s just my gut reaction to the situation. Once again, don’t take this personally.

    None taken. It’s a values thing i get it. Same as Jesus. We all have our limits on what we feel comfy with.

    Which is also why i think i’ll just keep the story to including numbers of sex partners and not their job occupations when it comes to those discussions :)

    It’s also why i think women should be extremely nervous about taking advice from organs like Slutwalk telling them stories to embrace their sexuality and unleash it (come on the word SLUT is in their name) and then condemn men for not being ‘big’ enough to look past the body count and see the person.

    They’re put this picture up today. They just don’t understand a thing.
    http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/404718_340640409298968_129831957046482_1374286_1500868352_n.jpg

  • Rum

    “Maggie McNeill” does the blog The Honest Courtesan. She writes brilliantly well, she has obviously formidable intellectual gifts, and she has done enough audio things to prove up her bona fides. She was a high end stripper and escort and brothel owner in the French Quarter… until recently.
    For my own self; I never went there. For all lots of reasons. Nonetheless I want to pimp up her blog. She seems to be the real deal and she deserves a spot on the role of honor. IMHO.
    I know doug1 agrees and I suspect many others would also take her side if the bullets started to fly.
    Anyway, what she teaches on her blog has completely changed how I think about sex work. Not sure what to do with the knowledge but there it is.

  • WarmWoman

    Sassy-You may have a point with your gut feeling, because the forum Stripperweb.com has a lot of strippers that have a relaxed attitude about casual sex, three-somes, and even women buying male escorts. The men that post on that forum aren’t judgmental of that behavior either.

  • Anacaona

    Similarly, I know Roissy has written about the high testosterone daughters of alphas. They may be more likely to be promiscuous due to higher T levels, so they’d be more likely to be attracted to higher T guys. That’s a different path to finding a guy like dear old Dad, but interesting.

    I actually have the opposite theory given my experience Alpha daughters are more likely to pick Beta traits and dislike High T men and if you think about it makes sense an alpha in a small community will be fathering lots of kid if his daughters are attracted to the traits he is passing then the chances of incest are really high and for our species incest is more costly than for others in biological terms, thus she attracted to the men less likely to be related to them makes more sense. I need to talk more about that.

    @Badger
    Eve is not a femme fatale. Femme fatale’s don’t get redeemed and bear children after receiving their punishment in the bible they just die (Jezebel) or dissappear (Delilah)… all pay for their transgressions. The bible doesn’t give details about Adam’s reaction to Eve’s offering neither show him “enchanting him or convincing him of eating the apple like they do with the other damned women) he didn’t protested or questioned Eve it just mentions that she ate the apple and fed Adam with it, then God came and even though he points out to Eve God punish both. In my theology class is usually read that Adam was in near proximity when Eve took the apple and that he failed to stop her maybe because he desired the apple as well and wanted to believe the serpent words and given that Eve didn’t died he assumed that God lied to them. Of course God didn’t had a lot of experience with children if he though that leaving them alone with a dangerous piece of “wisdom of good and evil) was a good idea. No to mention that he never warned them of the animal’s intentions since he told them to take care and reign of them… overall Genesis is a mess of who is to blame for our fall. I think we never agreed on that one in class. Good times! :)

    Beautiful, thanks! It’s 59 degrees in Boston right now – crazy! I walked in a short-sleeved shirt.

    Global warming to the rescue! Hubby and I joke that if we ever have kids we will tell them that in our youth there was a thing called seasons and we could predict the weather and they won’t believe us!

    As for the ‘highly selective woman,’ I have seen plenty of well-educated career gals fall for players. Usually when I hear a woman talk about being selective, she’s unusually picky (even by women’s standards) and has the concomitant miserable singleness to go along with it, while ignoring good non-player candidates who would be great boyfriends if she wasn’t so hung up on her “standards.”

    Walk into memory lane. My boss told me that picky women always pick wrong when I was in evasion mode of his advances. I think it depends in the kind of picky I was screening out cheaters and players my boss didn’t considered himself either but he was dating two girls at the time when he hired me, without their knowledge of course so yeah assholes never see their own flaws.

    Anacoana, can you share your views on “tells” here similar to your player tells.
    I’m 99% sure I don’t have to worry about this with my current SO, but I’d still like to get your thoughts Anacoana on what to keep an eye on.

    Wow I’m surprised of you being interested in this theme. I can only imagine how hard was for you that you still want some pointers. In general women also change their routines and do small acts of emotional separation when they are cheating. Athol has a post about “when she takes off her ring” that is very telling about women’s internal process. I will say pay attention to her and the small things she does that signal her bond with you I for example always steal a sip of whatever drink my husband is having even if I know I won’t like it, if I were to stop I’m sure he will sense something is wrong with us. Never assume that a woman leaving you to be is getting over a habit, women invest their emotions (both negative and positive) in the men they want, stopping investing usually means problems. Also pay attention to things appearing at home even if she says she bought it, new underwear, perfumes, jewelry… as a rule many of my player friends have a “testing” present to give to a wife they were interested in banging. The function was that if the wife was not the cheating type she wouldn’t accept it, if the wife was in a boring stage of the marriage she will accept it but if the man was paying attention she will return it next day with words for her husband that she didn’t needed any other man’s gifts, which the player will know to move on and stop engaging now if she took the present and continued flirting and escalating and being “thankful”, well proceed and engage. Sadly I most say that my friend got the perfume she wanted for her birthday from the guy she will eventually cheated on her husband and her husband comment in the present was something along the lines that he will save some money. They started their dirty business that very same week :(

    So much for women bonding to the men they cheat with, at least in this movie.

    I think statistically speaking the amount of cheaters that actually stay together after the divorce is really low. The presence of the spouse cheated on usually amplifies the “feelings” that supposedly exist, so another reason to hate on cheating.

    @Strippers
    Funny enough I don’t have any gut reaction against strippers and a man dating them ( I have a gut reaction to Doug1 but that is an entire different matter). I guess because I don’t associate it with prostitution but more like modern day Geishas and I of course knew a couple of them that only danced and never went home with anyone so I guess as long as is just dancing I wouldn’t have a problem with that in the past of a man. I consider pole dancing more in line with a sport, had you seen the competitions? A woman that can break my neck with her bare thighs has all my respect and… fear, YMMV as usual.

  • Anacaona

    She tells me she has slept with only 1 partner and tells me he was a lawyer who works for Wolfram & Heart.

    Well I didn’t hated Wesley for sleeping with Lila, poor bastard was in really bad shape. Simmilar situation later with Anne Summers and William The bloody ;)

  • Babydoll

    @Susan #410

    After the breakup with my last ex, I slid into such despair that I sought out counselling. One of the things we discussed was my relationship with my father, and his with my mother. My father is very successful and rich. He had a string of affairs during his marriage. He also dotes on me and I can and have gotten away with murder in a way my brothers never could.

    I know that I look for my father in men in that I look for rich and I expect to be spoiled. It’s been a difficult habit to break. It also allowed me to believe that my ex’s womanizing was ok because hey, Daddy did it and he never left Mummy did he?

    I was in counseling for 3 months, I went every fortnight and it cost a bomb. But I feel better equipped and now look for compatibility in values instead of traits that I identify with my father. I may have been, and still am, Daddy’s little girl but he wasn’t the best husband and my mother was mostly unhappy – I don’t want the kind of marriage she had.

    As for women looking for their fathers in men, my counsellor said it’s quite common. They are the first man we have ever loved, after all. We can’t help but look up to them and they have a strong influence in our lives.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Babydoll

      Thanks for sharing that story about your father. Good for you for going to counseling to work through it, it sounds like it was really helpful. It’s interesting to hear that women seek their fathers in men – even if the fathers have qualities they consciously reject. It’s all happening at the subconscious level…

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Anacaona,
    The woman cheating stuff is really interesting. When my mom was first dating my dad, her best friend from childhood worked with them (my dad was their boss lol) and the friend made some comment about how great my dad was compared to her own boyfriend. Soon after the friend got married, she started having an affair with another guy who was married. She left her husband and the guy left his wife, but they ended up breaking up anyway. My mom stayed friends with her for awhile, but eventually they stopped talking. She said after that comment about my dad, she never trusted her friend, especially when she started cheating on her husband with a married guy. It sounded like a “stay the hell away from my husband” type of reaction. Interesting when you think about having female friends who’ve cheated. And also a good reason not to marry a cad, especially one who’s cheated in the past.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      . And also a good reason not to marry a cad, especially one who’s cheated in the past.

      One thing I see a lot is intense relationships that started as flings where one party was cheating. I know a young couple who is head over heels right now, and they started out having sex the night they met, even though his gf was in the process of moving in with him. He broke up with his gf and is now with the new girl, and they seem extremely happy. They’re even talking about marriage. But it’s a bad way to start a relationship – almost a sort of curse. If I were the girl I’d spend my entire life waiting for the other shoe to drop.

  • Babydoll

    I’m a bit late to the game with this one. Been reading every comment but I’ve started work again after the holidays and my social life is also back in full swing – I’ve had to read comments on my iPhone sneakily at work and I still can’t keep up having just read #410 … How do you people do it??

  • WarmWoman

    Babydoll

    Your therapist is absolutely right that we learn about men from our dads. Men also sometimes choose wives/girlfriends that are like their moms. Our parents are the first model of relationships that we see, which is why some people recreate their parents’ problems in their own relationships.

  • Rum

    Once upon a time I did some time in Boston City Hospital as an m.s. 4 while living in Brookline Mass.. Don’t ask me why. It seem natural and right at the time.
    I could get to BCH via the MBTA trains or I could ride my bicycle smack thru the middle of the high crime streets of Roxbury and beyond. It was normal for me to hold a long bike-chain with the lock on the end in my hands at all times. Street politics and all that.
    I thought I had lost my virginity pretty thoroughly long before I spent some quality time in old bean-town. But I was wrong.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      My BFF is an ER doc who worked at Boston City for 13 years (1987-2000). Whenever we met for coffee, she would regale me with stories that she thought were fascinating – she loved her work. The pimp whose chest she had to plunge her arms into, the weekly stab and gunshot wounds, the obese woman in her 50s who came in complaining of abdominal pain and popped a baby right into my friend’s lap. She really had the most incredible experiences – but as a person who can’t stand the sight of blood, these conversations often left me feeling faint, and I’d beg her to stop. Of course, she thought that was hilarious.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Tasmin,

    “- Look for relationship-oriented men who get overlooked by other women”
    Would require a sea change of epic proportions. I know it is possible and even happens, as I tend to look for the overlooked woman myself, but it requires a serious reorientation. And given that “giving up garbage TV” and “exercising” seem to be too challenging for most, that last one is a stretch. I dig it, but its a stretch. As usual, your comments are well suited to your name. Keep it coming. Rooting for the 1% to become the 2% is no waste of time in my book.

    Well, thanks. I’d like to think this type of message could reach a few outlier women who might benefit.

    In my case it worked backwards. I already didn’t watch TV, instead I played video games, and I was quite non-mainstream. I was always naturally thin but on my way to gaining weight. Then I found reddit + red pill + game. I started exercising, being more feminine, and really started doing personal improvement along multiple dimensions.

    I have a lot of faith in the power of spreading good information, and the beauty of the Internet is that anybody can spread a message as long as it is coherent and read by the right audience who is ready to receive that message. There’s a ton of misinformation in the mainstream media for young girls, too, and giving them a dose of the red pill can really help them. I know it has certainly helped me.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Babydoll,
    That’s really interesting stuff. I don’t think my dad was ever a cad asshole (never cheated), but he’s very charismatic and people are drawn to him. He hasn’t made the best career choices but he’s been very successful in what he does and he’s highly intelligent. As a result, I think I have some alpha triggers (only realized this recently), which kind of sucks. Means I have to be really careful about who I pick and how I choose to interact with him.

    Here’s the really interesting part though: my dad had a horrible destructive relationship with his father, and both guys I’ve dated have had unhealthy relationships with their own fathers. I dunno if it’s coincidence but it’s really weird. Almost Freudian.

  • Anacaona

    @Babydoll
    First I want to congratulate you for trying to get your life back from the ghosts of your father’s behaviour. I think you are like one of my friends whose father cheated on her mother regularly and ultimately left her for clever mistress number 14 or so. Her father used money to keep her “happy” and I think that is the root of many of her issues, specially with her own husband, but she is is a self proclaimed bitch so neither me or my best friend can try to advice her and tell her to change or seek help, because she is never wrong. Future catlady in the making, she already has a kitty carriage for her cat and she is considering divorce…for no real reason. I sent her hubby Athol’s book anonimously but so far no improvements :(. So really I’m happy you are starting a journey of self improvement :), I wish you the best!

    …which is why some people recreate their parents’ problems in their own relationships./i>

    And why divorce and cheating are such a problematic issue. People also model on breaking their vows too.

    @Olive
    Oh boy that surely sounds like a wise move. I will say that my friend wanted to meet my gringo husband before I left…I kind of forgot if you catch my drill ;)

  • GudEnuf

    “It does fit with the observation of women that a lot of guys date bitches.”

    Maybe it’s because the queen bee gets first dibs on the good men and the wannabees have to wait in line? I’m not a female so I don’t know if this actually happens.

  • Charm

    @Badger #429

    I see what you mean. I feel like there is always a very fine line. Sure there are women who claim this or that and do the opposite. Hell, most people fall into this category. I too think I am wishing that more people would stick their guns on issues of selectivity. It pretty much comes down to will, I think. Can you stick it out? Will you continue your search even when it seems you’ll never find someone? I think thats a question most people have to ask themselves, especially people who are really selective.

    I know what I am greatly decreasing my odds of finding a mate my having certain standards. But I know the difference between things I cannot settle for (promiscuity, religious beliefs) and things that are more negotiable (income, looks). I think that a lot of people want to have their cake and eat it too. In a perfect world Id like that as well but I am not a fool.

    To be quite honest I love the underdog. I always root for them and actually notice them over men who are the center of attention. Ive said before that Im not really attracted to social proof or men who have other women surrounding them. To be quite honest its more of a turn off. If Im giving a man my undivided attention then I expect the same from him. Though I realize my dating strategy isnt what most men and women are doing.

    I want to get married and have kids one day but only if I find the right person for the job. I haven’t completely signed off on the idea because the chips haven’t fallen into place…yet. Im very “go big or go home”. Im future oriented so I realize this could lead to a life of being single and missing my chance to have children. If that did happen Id be down for fostering, mentoring, or sponsoring children. I like to have a few back up plans since life doesnt always work out as we hope.

  • Marellus

    @ Mike #493

    Strippers are hot. They know they’re hot. They command a lot of money because they are hot. They control the setting, and they expect that their wiley ways will simply work and that marks will be eager to open their wallets just for a few minutes of being able to touch their skin.

    In these places, it’s the stripper who has all the power. They’ve heard all the stories, they’ve seen all the acts.

    Yes, here is a guy that tried to Game a stripper.

    Gnarly Tattooed Biker Guy at strip club bar, when politely asked if Our Heroine might join him for a beer: “Whatever. If you want to. I don’t care.”

    11:15 pm: “I don’t have a girlfriend” — no, I didn’t ask — “Women can’t accept my priorities. I tell them my son comes first, my bike comes second, my job comes third. If they’re lucky, they might come in ahead of my truck. I like that truck, though.”

    11:17 pm: “I don’t need women. If I wanted to listen to bullshit, I’d turn on the TV.”

    Seconds later: “You can dance now, if you want to.”

    11:45 pm: “I bet you’re a hot fuck. Keep dancing”

    11:46 pm: “Have you ever been on a bike?”

    11:48 pm: “What I need is someone I can travel with. Someone I can just call up and say, ‘Hey, we’re going to Mexico.’ Someone who wouldn’t ask me how long we’re gonna be gone, cause I’m like that, you know. I don’t live by a schedule. I go where I wanna go, when I wanna go. God, you’re beautiful. What nights did you say you work again?”

    Game. Set. Match. Score one for the strippers, and g’night.

    But he couldn’t maintain his frame. And yet there are guys that this stripper fell for :

    You know about the plumber. Slender, curly-haired, pushing fifty, with mustache and an eight-mile stare. Is there an acronym for the male equivalent of a MILF? Probably not. Probably the idea of young doxies lusting after older men is too mainstream a fantasy to need its own name and aisle in the porn store. But really, it doesn’t work too well for me. Maybe becausee my dad was not your standard paternal authority figure. He and I were always wary equals. We engaged in yelling matches, not spankings. When I didn’t win, I retired to my closet where, instead of crying, I plotted eventual revenge. If the word Oedipal is flitting through your mind somewhere, don’t think I don’t know.

    and how did he do this ?

    The plumber and I were there. At least, for me we were. Maybe because at his age, and having already made for himself a prosperous life, he was going back to school to study political science, for fun, and that tickled me. Maybe because he never asked me anything about myself, but got to know me slowly, genuinely, and over time, the way friends do. Maybe because he never bothered to tell me how much he respected me, because he did actually respect me, and I already knew that. Maybe because he had a real person’s smile. Where were we in his mind? What sort of long hurdles of past experience had I made it over in his brain, and where did that leave me? I can’t guess.

  • Charm

    I didnt see this written anywhere, so sorry if its already been asked.

    @Chris_in_CA

    I keep hearing men say they don’t want to feel competed with. What do you mean by this? I have a few scenarios in my head but Id like to hear a specific example from you.

    Anyone else can feel free to chime in.

    My confusion, I think come from the fact that you have two different types of men who feel “competed” with:

    Guy A. Has an average job and doesn’t have much drive or ambition to advance so doesn’t want a woman who is naturally driven or ambitious because she makes him feel inadequate.

    Guy B. Has a average/above average job. Likes women who are intellectual and successful career wise BUT doesn’t like the woman who shoves her successes down his throat constantly.

    Im assuming you meant the latter? If so, I agree. Nothing is more unattractive than a person who brags about their successes–male or female. Its always best to be humble.

    I feel like Guy A is pretty prevalent and wont admit to his discomfort openly in fear of being shamed for it, though I think as a society men and women are conditioned to believe men should be more successful than women so I kind of understand where they are coming from.

    @Badgers

    I love STEM guys. I think its because they are good at the hard sciences, math, and technology. Im really envious/curious/turned on by men who are good at those things. I think its sad that they aren’t the pick of the litter, but that just leaves more for me. Its also good to hear that some men actually care as to whether or not their partner is successful or driven in their field of choice. Not for mating purposes of course, but I think it speaks to their fitness for long-term mating. This is why I can’t for the life of me understand why men keep saying “I don’t care about her credentials”. Its not that men should be impressed by them, but I think they reflect the person. A woman who is in the fashion industry is different, from a woman in business, who is different from a school teacher, who is different from female in the STEM field. There is a reason certain people go into certain fields.

  • Babydoll

    @ Hope #553

    So true re the Asian cultural preferences – I love nerds, especially those with a talent for maths and if they can talk Bach and Delibes with me, even better!

    I took Advanced Maths at the end of high school and it was the first time it clicked for me: this is a fucking language, with rhythm and patterns, like poetry. So anyone who can speak math sets my pants on fire because it’s like they understand this amazing world so few understand.

  • Babydoll

    @WarmWoman #558

    I also found that I resented my mother for not leaving my father. Like, why did she stay and make me believe it was ok to put up with cheating in a marriage? So yeah, I totally did recreate my parents’ relationship, because it was my blueprint. But I recognized that I didn’t want that blueprint, the one which made my mother miserable and I’m glad I didn’t marry my last ex – saved me from a future of grief.

    Funnily enough, she was against our relationship and asked why I was settling for a womanizer. I snapped back at her, saying that she was a fine one to talk considering her own marriage. I guess it’s harder to look at ourselves and our own relationships huh?

  • Babydoll

    @Olive

    What are alpha triggers?

    Yes that is interesting about your father’s destructive relationship with his father. Sometimes that can be a cycle repeated through generations. In my extended family, the relationship between father and eldest son always seems the most strained. High expectations maybe?

  • Babydoll

    @Anacoana – I hope I got the spelling right!

    Thank you so much :) I hope it works out for your friend. Money is a very powerful tool and my father knows it. He uses his to get his way or to prevent us from doing things he doesn’t approve of. It would have been too easy to stay at home and have my life handed on me on a silver platter. But I saw what dependence on him did to my mother and I’m determined to be independent, at least financially, in my relationships so I can walk away when I need to with minimal impact on my lifestyle.

    I think my parents’ relationship would give me pause if I start dating another high-number man, for the impact it could have on any children I might have. I’ve realized how important it is to consider how a man will be as a father, as well as a husband.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “You exude something rather extraordinary. I can’t put my finger on it, but if i could bottle it, i’d make a fortune. Hence the appeal in cloning you…”

    I would like an army of cloned Olive’s too.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    The strippers thing is quite odd to me. In the UK it’s far more of a seedy subculture, nothing like as above ground as it appears to be in the US, & I’ve honestly never seen the appeal – getting needlessly turned on by a generically attractive woman who’s no intention of fucking you anyway. Horrible, ugly phenomenon, like the ultimate cock-tease.

    In a way I see it (stripclub culture) as being more in the female spectrum of sexuality – all the girls losing their minds over the preselected boy band. In most other areas to do with sex men tend to like a woman regardless of what anyone else thinks of them, which is, as has been noted here & elsewhere, one of those fundamental differences between the sexes. So it kind of stumps me how a woman grinding her body against any one of a hundred guys every night who waves a dollar bill her way ends up becoming MORE attractive rather than less.

    Having said that, I can understand the feeling of accomplishment that must accompany genuinely turning on a woman who is otherwise looking at men only as walking wallets. I guess it’s just I’ve never seen strippers as being all that attractive.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Mike,

    NASALT!

    That’s a great new acronym for Kari :)

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    @ Susie at 535,

    “I disagree. I fell in love with Orlando Bloom during the first movie of POC (Pirates of the Carribean: Curse of the Black Pearl) and I loved him in LOTR (Lord of the Rings). Johnny Depp exudes quiet confidence in his style and in his acting. They both have a certain masculine streak that I like. It’s also great that both have “dark features” (brown eyes, dark hair, facial structure).”

    Maybe that’s just it…they compensate very well with their lack of masculine physique.
    They are both fairly scrawny in physique, compared to say, Will Smith or Hugh Jackman.

    @ PVW and Susan:

    Your comments about female lawyers, doctors and professors make a lot of sense, as usual.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “I didn’t hate Wesley for sleeping with Lila, poor bastard was in really bad shape. ”

    Didn’t work out well, though, did it?

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Charm,

    “I keep hearing men say they don’t want to feel competed with. What do you mean by this? I have a few scenarios in my head but Id like to hear a specific example from you.”

    I think many modern women really just don’t comprehend how little their career they’ve been told is so important means to any man they get involved with.

    ‘Work’ as such is a male invention, the traditionally male role (meaning, in this instance, something emerging out of natural evolution). Women’s innate natural strengths & abilities have been devalued by the feminist movement so much that they don’t realize men aren’t looking for more of themselves, they’re looking for the complementary other, for that which they don’t have already.

    Unless the man is going to be a stay-at-home homemaker (which is on a biological level a wasteful use of resources, especially if children are going to be involved, & most women would not consider ideal or attractive anyway), a woman driven by her career as much as the man is going to make the relationship top-heavy, with everybody providing the ‘provider’ role & no-one taking on the nurturing. Plus men, at least on an instinctive level, know about women’s hypergamy & love of higher status, so the more a woman is driving herself to scrabble up the corporate ladder, the more a man knows he will have to scrabble up there too, whether he wants to or not, or else run the danger of being deemed wanting & left behind.

    I think the male feeling is not one of being threatened by a woman’s achievements (as it is always depicted), it’s just the feeling of never being able to relax.

    And most men would much rather be able to feel at rest, at peace, – happy – than score themselves a high-earning lady lawyer with ice in her veins & dollar signs in her eyes.

    I’m in a rush right now, so I’m possibly not putting this very well. I’ll try think on this some more.

  • Babydoll

    @Byron #606

    Wow. “never being able to relax” I’ve never thought of it that way. I was raised to believe that I could and should have as good a career as any man. I’ve worked hard for it. And now I read here that men would rather have a woman in a nurturing profession such as an elementary school teacher? School teacher being a profession that I was taught to shun, because it wasn’t good enough, I was too smart for that.

    So now what? Play down my career and related successes? I am not being snide, but I am sure there are others here like me who have careers which may fall in the lawyer sphere and who have worked hard to get where they are today. It’s disheartening to know that the same drive and ambition that has reaped me many rewards may ultimately leave me sidelined when it comes to relationships. I work in finance, if that helps.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Babydoll

      It’s disheartening to know that the same drive and ambition that has reaped me many rewards may ultimately leave me sidelined when it comes to relationships. I work in finance, if that helps.

      Assortative mating still happens among the highly educated. My town near Boston is chock full of couples aged 25 and up who met in grad school or at work. Doctors married to doctors, lawyers married to lawyers, finance types married to finance types. The truth is, of the men in this population who will marry (much higher percentage than the general pop.), most of them will marry women of similar education and experience. Many of the women will step off the career track at some point, so few families have two with high-powered careers. This was the case in my own marriage.

  • Anna

    @ Sassy
    “Again Doug1, am I supposed to care? The fact that you banged a stripper doesn’t help you in my eyes. Go ahead and get all the high fives from your buddies that you want, but I literally couldn’t give two shits.”
    +1

    @ Olive
    I understand that you’re mainly looking to find out why you feel like you do. For me, it’s pretty simple. Who you choose to date says something about you and a guy with a stripper past has chosen women I don’t associate myself with, and I would wonder what he looks for in women. Susan opened by saying that women are looking for men with sexual experience – it counts, but you certainly look at the level of them. You can say girls can be skeptical of virgin guys, if over a certain age yes, if he’s just young I am aware that guy mature later and he might be a great gut. Even if the guy’s relationship to strippers were completely sexual, my thought would be “only strippers considered this man good enough”. Or “where does he usually spend his time to meet women like this”. In Mike’s case, 4 out of 5 women he’s had are strippers, so honestly something sounds a bit off there. I’m put off by stripper pasts in the same way I’m put off men who has mostly slept with absolute sluts, call girls or just generally women with fewer options relationship-wise. It says something about the league he is operating in and what he looks for in women. On top of that, many guys here (obv not all) has strong opinions on female vulgarity and sees prostitutes as the absolute lowest. I will then assume (correctly or not) that strippers are ok vs hookers because you don’t have the competition and other men invading territory. Whereas regarding female intergrity, they don’t give a s***.
    Some guys see the preference as “extreme”, I don’t get that at all. That’s probably just the way they want to make it sounds because they didn’t think it would work against them. I have options with men, and I can exclude them on different grounds. Surely I would date a guy who’s previous gf was a model, but not a modelizer. I woul perhaps go on a date with a guy who dates strippers, but I would date him in spite of it, and he would be in the negative to begin with. He’d have to have quite a lot to make up for it.
    Several guys in this thread have strong reactions to women dating assholes, surely they can understand how these attitudes works both ways. And like I said before – I 100% respect that men and women are different regarding amount of casual sex and partner counts. But the QUALITY of previous partners will still be subject.

  • pvw

    JT:

    @ PVW and Susan:

    Your comments about female lawyers, doctors and professors make a lot of sense, as usual.

    My reply: Thanks!

  • Charm

    @Byron.

    Hm…I can understand that. I think that this is something men really should consider when choosing a woman, also women need to think about this in the long run as well. These seem to be issues that people in the 21st century aren’t even considering. I know Dalrock talks about how women waste time and energy going to college and getting a job only to give it up anyway to become a SAHM once children come along. Or, becoming burned out and wanting to stay home in some capacity anyway.

    I too think feminist have completely devalued the role of the SAHW. Most young women just aren’t being raised to even consider it. They all want to go into these career fields when they aren’t cut out to handle the workloads or stress.

    Hypergamy, hypergamy, hypergamy! Doesn’t it always come down to this? I can understand why a man would be worried about this, though I can’t understand it. Status is meh to me. Id take a stable 60k a year tenured professor with average looks and amazing intellect over a handsome executive making 100k+ anyday.

    Interesting answer…thanks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Charm

      women waste time and energy going to college and getting a job only to give it up anyway to become a SAHM once children come along.

      As someone who got a masters and wound up being a SAHM for 15 years, I couldn’t disagree more. I used my education and skills throughout that time – just not in some corporate environment. I earned little income, it’s true, but the decision to stay home was one that my husband and I made together. And of course, once my children grew up (they do that!) I was free to pursue any number of intellectual endeavors, which I did. If I wasn’t educated, I’d be a less interesting and capable person. I wouldn’t be able to have intelligent conversations with my husband or children, much less write a blog.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Charm,

    What if the “handsome executive” ALSO had an “amazing intellect?”

    In other words, is the executive’s higher income/status (purchased at the price of more stress and less security) an actual *negative* to you, or merely a non-factor?

  • Jim

    Byron said, “And most men would much rather be able to feel at rest, at peace, – happy – than score themselves a high-earning lady lawyer with ice in her veins & dollar signs in her eyes.”

    So very true. My cousin, a stockbroker, did that very thing-he married a up and coming lawyer from a family of lawyers and judges. After three years, she ditched him for a much older full-partner in her law firm, who was a three time marriage loser at that point. Thanks to her knowledge of the law, she served my cousin divorce papers more quickly than his jaw could hit the floor. She then quickly cleared out their bank accounts, other joint assets, and the house of all the furniture and other decor save a sofa, the tv, and the dog. She also secured her job at the law firm as the full-partner was viewed as the one who created the workplace sexual harassment liability issue by being the employer who slept with the employee. The older partner went into ‘early retirement’ while she remained and is still currently employed. The precision of her actions was worthy of a special forces team.

    My father, a career military lawyer and still married to my mother gave me this bit of advice (among many) when I left for university;

    Never marry a woman who is taller, richer, or smarter than you. Dealing with one of those qualities is merely tolerable. Two, extraordinarily difficult but manageable. All three and you have the same value as the toy poodle she keeps in her purse as a fashion accessory.

    For Babydoll’s sake, I hope she’s short.

  • pvw

    Byron:

    Unless the man is going to be a stay-at-home homemaker (which is on a biological level a wasteful use of resources, especially if children are going to be involved, & most women would not consider ideal or attractive anyway), a woman driven by her career as much as the man is going to make the relationship top-heavy, with everybody providing the ‘provider’ role & no-one taking on the nurturing. Plus men, at least on an instinctive level, know about women’s hypergamy & love of higher status, so the more a woman is driving herself to scrabble up the corporate ladder, the more a man knows he will have to scrabble up there too, whether he wants to or not, or else run the danger of being deemed wanting & left behind.

    I think the male feeling is not one of being threatened by a woman’s achievements (as it is always depicted), it’s just the feeling of never being able to relax.

    And most men would much rather be able to feel at rest, at peace, – happy – than score themselves a high-earning lady lawyer with ice in her veins & dollar signs in her eyes.

    Charm:

    I can understand that. I think that this is something men really should consider when choosing a woman, also women need to think about this in the long run as well. These seem to be issues that people in the 21st century aren’t even considering. I know Dalrock talks about how women waste time and energy going to college and getting a job only to give it up anyway to become a SAHM once children come along. Or, becoming burned out and wanting to stay home in some capacity anyway.

    I too think feminist have completely devalued the role of the SAHW. Most young women just aren’t being raised to even consider it. They all want to go into these career fields when they aren’t cut out to handle the workloads or stress.

    Hypergamy, hypergamy, hypergamy!
    Doesn’t it always come down to this? I can understand why a man would be worried about this, though I can’t understand it. Status is meh to me. Id take a stable 60k a year tenured professor with average looks and amazing intellect over a handsome executive making 100k+ anyday.

    My observations:

    This is what I was thinking about when I talked about friends and relatives who left the more stressful litigation and corporate fields in law to do something else, ie., become a stay-at-home mom or go into a different field.

    A fair number of parents encourage their daughters to go into the high earning fields because they know that in today’s world their daughters might have to be self-supporting for a long time, ie., late or no marriage, or widowhood, divorce. Beyond that, if it takes two incomes to raise a family, they want their daughters in a good position to do so.

    So they do want their daughters to marry and raise families, but to urge them to eschew all higher education and just become stay-at-home moms is seen as irresponsible.

    But become a stay-at-home mom and downscale after having a lucrative career? Yes, because she now has the time to dedicate to her children, has the education and training to fall back on in case of disaster. Be in a good position to advocate for her children as they age? Yes, ie., good social and professional connections, etc. For their husbands, feminine mommy-lawyers are hot!

    Yet, the women who still work in law, ie., more often in a less stressful field, I know many are not crazed and unfeminine and overly driven. The work is merely what they do. When the make career changes, they often sacrifice a lot in terms of money–hypergamy????

    So I don’t begrudge women going into those fields and I don’t presume they are all super hypergamous and all have ice in their veins when they do.

    Women academics often have jobs that are great for work-family balance, and I see it not only in myself, but in my female law professor colleagues. We do the same things: work from home alot, especially during the winter and summer breaks (I go back Tuesday, darn!); don’t have to go in every day even during the semester, which means more time for feminine domestic pursuits!

    Charm, you were right on the money with the salary! The tenured faculty in the other fields can earn about $60k, while my female law professor friends make at least $120k. And those at the top tier schools can easily earn double that, and keep all the goodies, the nice flexible schedule, good work/family balance, time to work from home on class preparations and publications….

  • Charm

    @David

    Nah, but from what I gathered from Byron, women tend to like the whole status that comes along with jobs titles like “Executive”. To be quite honest, in a perfect world Id prefer an executive that has amazing intellect though, “handsome” really isnt my thing. Id take a male 5-7 over a male 9 anyday. Why? More often than not average looking people usually have to rely on developing a great personality to make up for what they lack in looks.

    Im not saying that, that male 9, executive, with amazing intellect and amazing personality doesn’t exist, but he seems too rare a unicorn for me to waste my time with it. Plus he’d probably have a ton of women circling like vultures. Im not really in the business of fighting for male affection. I can say Im not hypergamous. I don’t like flashing success at all. Money, to me, just ensure stability for the family unit. The more acquire, the more stability provided should something happen to me or my mate.

    I do however recognize most women aren’t like that. They want to brag about their CEO/doctor/hotshot lawyer husband to their friends. I recognize this. So for me “executive” reeks of instability. There’s more competition for titles like that. Like Ive said before, STEM men are passed over for “flashier” titles but I know that the stability lies with them. Id choose the dorky math professor anyday of the week. There’s something sexy about being a sculptor of minds.

    I also don’t mind the stress that comes along with powerful jobs. Id hope a man knows his limits though and didn’t overdo it. I think its important for people to recognize that, as I wouldnt be a fan on him having a heart attack at 45 in the name of “status”. Not when their are children to be reared.

  • pvw

    I’m very skeptical about this sort of woman making a good sex or relationship partner for by far most men. As well I tend to denigrate men who’d go for submissive roles, per feminism, in relationships. And take advantage of them, as in fuck their wives.

    She is a devoted wife and mother of two. Her husband is Chief Counsel for a very large company. She is the primary breadwinner, as she rakes in the big bucks. That is true even with her working half time. Their marriage is stable and monogamous.

    Susan:

    Same here! I know a number of women who are like this.

    They are not so hypergamous that the are willing to sacrifice their marriages. Perhaps they are outliers? Beta women with low partner counts when they married? Women ranking less than the super-hot types who are in high demand? Low bidders who got the good (beta) guys early because they knew that as they are not at the high end of the looks scale, they would not be in demand, they had to enter and leave the game early?

    Their personality types, using Meyers-Briggs? They have a good balance in their feminine/masculine energies? They can take a traditional male leadership role in earning more or in being more prominent, yet, they can be traditionally feminine in other ways, be good mothers and wives in managing their households, admire and respect their husbands’ masculine traits, thus being loyal to their beta husbands who are not as alpha?

    These are all just some random thoughts.

    I agree with the points regarding daughters of alpha dads finding beta men appealing. I have seen it alot; young girl sees how alpha dad was not good to mom, so they take the best of dad and then reject the worse by looking for beta.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PVW

      I think you definitely hit on something when you mentioned “beta women.” I’ve been saying this recently. We have an elaborate sociosexual hierarchy for men, constantly debating what qualifies as true alpha, or whether beta traits are good or bad in a relationship. Yet we reduce women to one simple model, a sort of creature with a built-in hindbrain, complete with hamster wheel. It’s silly. Most importantly, men who buy into this are shooting themselves in the foot if they want a relationship. That view of female sexuality only works for short-term, no-strings sex.

      We’ve got respected scholars studying female psychology and sexuality as a highly complex phenomenon, and we’ve got players and pickup artists reducing women to a series of “tingles” generated by one thing only: aggressive dominance.

      Whose opinion should carry more weight? Ogi Ogas, respected academic and bestselling author, or a 22 year old knucklehead who barely made it through college? It’s laughable.

  • Charm

    @pvw

    Yes, I don’t think all women are hypergamous. Sure, Id agree that most are, but not all. Id want to work just for the variety. I couldnt imagine just raising children. I would honestly die. I know a lot of SAHM/W’s do other things like PTA, volunteer work, small side jobs, but the thought of just “gabbin with the girls” makes me want to blow my brains out. I am not, nor have I ever been “one of the girls”. Nothing against those women, but they just are not my cup of tea. I have too much mental energy that would need to be exerted somewhere so I would consider changing careers or industries to be able to work from home to tend to the children more often.

    @Jim

    Ugh. I hate stories like this. They make women as a whole look bad. NAWALT!NAWALT! I wanna scream it from the mountain tops. I hate being associated with women who are like *that* simply because were of the same gender. Im bitter now. I dislike that woman. In on swoop she made it harder for women like me.

  • Wudang

    I agree with the guys here that bedding strippers ranks very high as a form of validation of seduction abilities/alphaness. Much higher than an equaly attractive lawyer. That is because of the constant offers they get, because although they are hot they all overrate their looks more so than any other women because of the attention they get, because they have the best girl game out their and have jedi like abilities in playing games which makes them much harder to pull. From reading PUA forums it is clear to me that the women guys usually find hardest to pull are infact strippers in addition to models.

    As a girlfriend though This does not quite work the same way. I think all guys would respect a man for being able to pull the stripper but tehy would loose respect form him for being dum enough to be in a relationship with the stripper. So in terms of status validation its a mixed bag. One of the highest testament to pickup abilites but a trashy girlfriend choice.

  • pvw

    Charm:

    To be quite honest, in a perfect world Id prefer an executive that has amazing intellect though, “handsome” really isnt my thing. Id take a male 5-7 over a male 9 anyday. Why? More often than not average looking people usually have to rely on developing a great personality to make up for what they lack in looks.

    Im not saying that, that male 9, executive, with amazing intellect and amazing personality doesn’t exist, but he seems too rare a unicorn for me to waste my time with it. Plus he’d probably have a ton of women circling like vultures. Im not really in the business of fighting for male affection. I can say Im not hypergamous. I don’t like flashing success at all. Money, to me, just ensure stability for the family unit. The more acquire, the more stability provided should something happen to me or my mate.

    My reply:

    I agree fully with your perspective about average looking people having to develop greater personalities and being wary of the high ranked 9+ guy who most likely has a swarm of women competing for him.

    In my mind, most men fall in the 5-7 range, of average. It seems to me that most men’s looks fall into a range of, short to medium height, to tall, light to dark complexions, dark hair, light hair, dark eyes, light eyes, overweight or not, muscled or not. Perhaps it is certain facial features that put a guy into the 8+ range? Job status that puts him there? So saying that a guy is a 9 or 10 is meaningless to me. I can see though, arguments about a guy being below a 5 because he is obese.

    Charm:

    They want to brag about their CEO/doctor/hotshot lawyer husband to their friends. I recognize this. So for me “executive” reeks of instability. There’s more competition for titles like that.

    Me:

    Yes, and more women trying to take your place, as the saying goes, “uneasy lies the head that wears the crown”. The tall, quiet, dorky STEM type (like husband) is not looked at even twice…tee hee…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yes, and more women trying to take your place, as the saying goes, “uneasy lies the head that wears the crown”.

      Very true, and for both sexes. The risk is even greater today, with the breakdown in assortative mating.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    I’d take the lawyer, because I wouldn’t date a stripper. Even if she were a virgin stripper, the fact that she’s flashing her shit for strange men would make her the equivalent of a slut to me.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    babydoll,

    So now what? Play down my career and related successes?

    No, but think more about playing UP your human qualities instead. It’s not a mistake to have a career, only to expect that it will attract a man the way it may do a woman.

    Charm’s comment, for instance – “Status is meh to me. Id take a stable 60k a year tenured professor with average looks and amazing intellect over a handsome executive making 100k+ anyday ” – while I completely get where she’s coming from, & I certainly don’t mean this as a put-down, only an observation – is kind of funny looked at objectively, or at least from a different, male point of view: A 60k a year tenured professor is still a particular kind of high[er] status (he’s not a trucker, handyman, part-time librarian or unemployed musician, for instance, of which there are a hell of a lot more of in the world than 60k a year tenured professors). The idea that this demonstrates status not being an issue just demonstrates how much it IS an issue, for pretty much all women. (Again, no offence Charm).

    Whereas, on the other side of the tracks, as every fourth romantic comedy tells us, a male millionaire has no problems whatsoever falling in love with a waitress, just so long as she’s the right waitress.

    Good character, kindness, gentleness, humour – & obviously physical beauty – all trump any amount of money or career a woman may have, in the eyes of men.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Chris,

    Men do NOT like women who try to compete with them. Period.

    Hm. This is a bit simplistic. Playful competition between a man and a woman can be fun. It’s sort of like a long-term flirtation.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    This is why I say that the future belongs to the betas.

    If the future belongs to “betas”, then isn’t the nomenclature off? I mean, don’t the terms alpha/beta actually hinder understanding if that’s the case?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      If the future belongs to “betas”, then isn’t the nomenclature off? I mean, don’t the terms alpha/beta actually hinder understanding if that’s the case?

      You know it.

      In a couple of hundred years, the time we’re living in will be viewed as the Technology Revolution. It is changing the world in dramatic and pervasive ways. Those who lead the way must have considerable technical skills in addition to leadership skills. They will preside over armies of people with technical acumen. This is where nearly all future economic growth will originate.

      It’s not that all STEM guys will rule the world. But the leaders will come from that cohort. The pure “alpha” as the term is used around here, is generally the antithesis of the STEM guy. He’s the lax player who gets a job in Sales and Trading upon graduation. Sure, there will be opportunities for guys like that. But they’re on the sidelines. They’re not the ones creating, innovating, making things happen. Even Wall St. has witnessed the rise of the quant.

      We’re already there. Jobs, Gates, Zuckerburg. And many more nipping at their heels. All with STEM backgrounds.

      Liberal arts majors are already an anachronism. I say that in the nicest way possible, Jesus. :)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Doug,

    A high scale stripper who’s beginning to fall into the NYC drug culture…. is still a druggy who shakes her tits to tease lonely men into giving her money for drugs. The “scale” hardly matters. She can swing from a platinum pole if she wants… she’s still a skank.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Wudang,

    I agree with the guys here that bedding strippers ranks very high as a form of validation of seduction abilities/alphaness.

    I disagree. “Alphaness”, insofar as it has any meaning at all to me, is not really related to the types of woman a man can bed.

    I don’t think I’ve ever met a PUA that I would consider “alpha.” PUAs are typically thrill-seekers. Which is to say, they’re not driven by testosterone, but by adrenaline. High adrenaline people are also high cortisone people. High levels of cortisone actual inhibit the production (or else just breakdown–can’t remember which) of testosterone.

    This is probably why guys with high counts feel less attracted to a girl after they bed her. They’re motivated not by testosterone, but by adrenaline. They’re looking for the thrill and novelty of a new conquest.

    (Incidentally, I’m thinking that the adrenaline rush that comes with a new situation accounts for why men feel that first time sex is more exciting than regular sex with a committed partner).

    But thrill seekers aren’t usually the most successful people in our society. The ability to deal with risk is definitely a quality of the highest status people in society, but the “need” for risk usually interferes with someone’s ability to persevere and develop any significant degree of success.

    Also, from a biological POV, the committed player, the guy who never wants to settle down and have children, is essentially omega, since his genes end with him.

    So I don’t see PUAs as alpha.

  • Charm

    @Susan

    Yes, I see what you mean. I should have included that in my post. Absolutely women should go to college as a fall back plan or post-child rearing like yourself. I agree completely with that. Im thinking more along the lines of people who just aren’t cut out for certain things. A lot of people go to college because they expected to when they don’t want to or aren’t cut out for it. Why? Because society and parents dictate it. Ive known people who have passed up college because they knew that being a SAHM is all they ever wanted to be.

    Not saying any of this is negative. I respect a woman who knows she isn’t college/workplace oriented. There is nothing wrong with being really good at raising children. I think its a job that people should be proud of. However, feminist act like these women are in need of saving. There is a sort of stigma associated with staying home with that kids. Its like, “Thats all you want to do? Depend on a man for money?” There is this pressure to go along with college, career etc.

    As girls I don’t think all of our options are presented to us equally. There is the woman who went straight into motherhood, the working mother, and the woman who never wanted children. There is a huge spectrum of women who fall in between and yet we aren’t presented with all of these choices. I think its important for a woman to know where she stands. Not saying you shouldn’t/can’t go to college, but if you know you don’t want that why waste time doing it?

    Like you, if I chose to stay at home for X year with the kids, I know Id want to enter the work force again. But thats who I am. My path isn’t the same path for everyone.

    My bad on the confusion.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Charm

      A lot of people go to college because they expected to when they don’t want to or aren’t cut out for it. Why? Because society and parents dictate it. Ive known people who have passed up college because they knew that being a SAHM is all they ever wanted to be.

      I think it’s fair to do a Cost/Benefit analysis on a college education. However, among its benefits I would include:

      the development of critical thinking skills
      learning how to construct a thesis, test and defend it
      a reading of great literature
      learning how to write
      exposure to a wide and diverse variety of people
      exposure to many new ideas
      increased awareness of global issues and challenges

      That’s just the start – I could probably come up with at least 100 more benefits to a college education. Of course, this assumes that the student make the most of that education. Partying, skipping classes, majoring in some fluffy topic – that’s all just a waste of money and time.

      My point is that college is a key step in personal and intellectual development. It’s possible to get that without going to college, of course, but few have the discipline to educate themselves.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Dough,

    And nice mangina like white knighting on your part saving your stripper gal from the “bohemian” NYC drug culture and helping her to get into law school.

  • Wudang

    It should have said equally attractive doctor

  • OffTheCuff

    Baby doll… Google mobilizer reformats the page pretty well on smartphones. A decent RSS reader should give you the option. I do miss the mobile WordPress theme, which got lost a few months ago.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I do miss the mobile WordPress theme, which got lost a few months ago.

      I’ll try putting this back. I deactivated it during technical troubles, but we can try and see if it works OK.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “In a couple of hundred years, the time we’re living in will be viewed as the Technology Revolution. It is changing the world in dramatic and pervasive ways. Those who lead the way must have considerable technical skills in addition to leadership skills. They will preside over armies of people with technical acumen. This is where nearly all future economic growth will originate. ”

    If it doesn’t all crash, of course.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…”if I wasn’t educated, I’d be a less interesting and capable person. I wouldn’t be able to have intelligent conversations with my husband or children, much less write a blog.”

    Boswell quoted his friend Samuel Johnson as remarking that “that a man of sense and education should meet a suitable companion in a wife. It was a miserable thing when the conversation could only be such as, whether the mutton should be boiled or roasted, and probably a dispute about that.”

    (Of course, Dr Johnson also said “A man is in general better pleased when he has a good dinner upon his table, than when his wife talks Greek.”)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      I like to think I can roast the mutton while discussing Plato :)

      I’m reminded (as usual) of Pride & Prejudice – this is why Austen is such a great writer. Speaking about Elizabeth Bennet and her father’s marriage to a stupid woman:

      But she had never felt so strongly as now the disadvantages which must attend the children of so unsuitable a marriage, nor ever been so fully aware of the evils arising from so ill-judged a direction of talents; talents which rightly used, might at least have preserved the respectability of his daughters, even if incapable of enlarging the mind of his wife.

  • Charm

    @Byron

    I agree there is “status” associated with professor as well just not as much as other titles. I guess I chose professor because I would prefer to date/marry someone who is more intellectually inclined so the assumption is that more often than not they would be in field X,Y,Z over field A,B,C.

    I have nothing against blue collar jobs. I think that people should do what they love. A professor isn’t any better than a plumber. But I do think that career field reflect the person doing the job. I’m not gonna lie though. Im not marrying an unemployed musician. Why? Too unstable. I think its fine to like/love music but at the end of the day I think people need to be more practical. Do music part-time. You need to have a job if you want a family and kids. Its that simple. It comes down to not always being able to do what you want just because you love it. If a man can’t figure that much out on his own….well. However if a person has a lower income job but is really doing something to better the world and positively impacts other people I have nothing but respect for it and wouldn’t care about the money. Id be fine earning more.

    Drive, ambition, intellectual=better job prospects=higher income=higher stability.

    Maybe you don’t realize how absolutely obsessed I am with stability. Why? Because my parents weren’t. They brought 3 children into the world under risky circumstances and were really irresponsible. I turned out this way in my early 20’s because of the decisions they made. It impacted me positively while my siblings not so much. This has caused my need to have a plan for the future…always.

    I want to build the safest nest possible for starting a family. I take it really seriously. Other people seem too laid back for me. I want give my children the best possible shot at having a happy, healthy life. So Im gonna find the best twigs, and thickest mud to build that nest, or fuck it. I wont reproduce.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…”Jobs, Gates, Zuckerburg. And many more nipping at their heels. All with STEM backgrounds.”

    Jobs wasn’t really all that much of a STEM guy…indeed, it was a course he took in typography, purely out of interest and not as part of any required degree program, that led to much of the success of the Macintosh.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      In an article I read by Jobs’ sister, the novelist Mona Simpson, she described how even in his final days he was sketching ideas for a device that could hold an ipad in front of a patient in a hospital bed. She said he was a paper and pencil guy – never took notes on an IOS device. I haven’t read his bio, but must remedy that. He’s one that will go down in history, for sure. A true visionary.

  • GudEnuf

    “The truth is, of the men in this population who will marry (much higher percentage than the general pop.), most of them will marry women of similar education and experience.”

    Not me. :P I’m going to marry up.

  • OffTheCuff

    This is why I can’t for the life of me understand why men keep saying “I don’t care about her credentials”

    A bit oversimplified. We care about your personality. It just really doesn’t factor into sexual attraction that it does for women. A good-looking waitress has just as much sexual pull as a good-looking doctor.

    So anyone who can speak math sets my pants on fire because it’s like they understand this amazing world so few understand.

    Baby, all those other guys have logarthmic curves, but I’m naturally quadratic. And I’m exponential for you.

    Yikes… That sounds like it could be a lyric to “white and nerdy”

  • Charm

    @Susan

    Yea. I agree as well. I majored in International Studies and a foreign language and want to study abroad to become fluent in it, but I ultimately want to go into business. Why? Id be good at it. It really appeals to me.

    I know people get a lot of crap for going to college because its seen as an extension of adolescence (often it is) but I can say it made me a better person. Had I not come here I wouldn’t have figured out what I wanted to do with my life. Its changed my perspective and given me more time to “figure it out”. Its also increased my options. So to me it was worth it.

    I still however recognize the more um….*simplistic* type of person. Not everyone cares to have the experience you or I have had.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…and then there’s the passage from Byron’s Don Juan in Hell:

    Tis pity learned virgins ever wed
    With persons of no sort of education,
    Or gentlemen, who, though born and bred,
    Grow tired of scientific conversation;
    I don’t choose to say much upon this head,
    I’m a plain man, and in a single station,
    But — Oh! ye lords of ladies intellectual,
    Inform us truly, have they not hen-peck’d you all?

    (Some think that when Byron wrote this he had in mind his daughter Ada, who collaborated with Charles Babbage on his unrealized plan to build the first programmable computer. The ADA computer language is named in her honor)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      You are a treasure trove of fascinating tidbits. I had no idea about ADA.

  • Charm

    @OTC

    I get that looks matter to men. Well…I don’t “get” it, but I acknowledge it. I accept it. Sexual attraction and all that, but I’d hope men also took a long hard look at character. Hell, character might be most important considering the state of monogamy and marriage in today world.

    Good looks won’t stick around when you lose your job, nor will it pick you up and carry on its back without complaining when times get hard. Good looks wont be there when you’re going through a rough patch in your marriage and you’re “unhappy”. Nor will they allow you to see your children in case of divorce. Or stick by in case of severe illness/or disability. A person of character would do all of these things.

    Im a sucker for people of strong character. Its mesmerizing.

    I know, I know. Men aren’t that shallow. But I do get worried when men exclaim “Looks matter” so emphatically. Can we start saying “Looks + character matters?” I’d be able to understand that better. Lol.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Charm,

    “I want to build the safest nest possible for starting a family. I take it really seriously. Other people seem too laid back for me. I want give my children the best possible shot at having a happy, healthy life. So Im gonna find the best twigs, and thickest mud to build that nest, or fuck it. I wont reproduce.”

    More power to you, i wish more people felt the same way. Far too many people in the world popping out little miracles that they have no idea how to take care of.

    As Gore Vidal once put it,

    “Parenthood is a gift, which is something most parents find out too late, and most children find out right away.”

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    A different view of liberal arts education from the always-interesting Virginia Postrel.

  • OffTheCuff

    Charm, I’m not trying to say character doesn’t matter, see Badger’s expanded ladder theory post (http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/ladder-theory-for-men), which quite accurately describes how men think, and his most brilliant observation is that men with less options often only have a single relationship ladder. Looks and character certainly do matter greatly to men, just in different ways.

    When I say character generally doesn’t factor in sexual attraction I mean a very precise thing, and there’s no less crude or more accurate way to say it as “the boner”. It doesn’t mean “do we like you” in some sort of vague way.

    This is usually hard for women to understand, since their attractiion triggers are far more complex and bound up with looks, status, dominance, and how she feels at this very second.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Byron +1

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    The conversation about careers with Charm, Byron, and Babydoll is fascinating. I think one thing we must admit, as girls, is that we might have to “marry down.” That goes against our biological instinct, but in today’s SMP and economy, we must expand our horizons if we want relationships. Many factors, including feminism, have contributed to the reality that more women go to college than men, women’s salaries are increasing at a faster rate than men’s salaries, and that women are becoming more career-minded and competitive in general. As girls, we can wish it away, or condemn what society has done to us and to men, but that’s how we were raised. We have to deal with the SMP as is.

    I’m already in a relationship that sets me up as the more highly-educated, higher earning partner. I’m in grad school getting two masters degrees; my BF still hasn’t finished college. Our families are completely different: I come from a middle class family, both my parents have college degrees, they paid for my undergraduate education, etc. My BF comes from a working class family, neither of his parents completed college, and he’s had to pay his own way through college and hasn’t been able to finish yet due to financial struggles. He’s also told me he wouldn’t mind being a stay at home dad.

    That stretches things for me. I often need to remind myself that he will make a great provider someday, even if he’s still living with his mom right now. He’s a hard worker, a STEM guy (math major), and I’ve always thought he’s smarter than me. I encourage the ladies here to not limit themselves when it comes to potential SOs’ earning power. You can still fall in love with someone who isn’t as highly educated, and just because a guy didn’t go to college doesn’t mean he’s not smart or intellectual. What matters more is that he has a job, that he works hard, and that he is compatible with you.

  • SayWhaat

    It’s not a mistake to have a career, only to expect that it will attract a man the way it may do a woman.

    Ironically, this has actually been a bit liberating for me. Pre-red pill, I would have thought that the attractive lawyers at my firm were “out of my league” and wouldn’t have even bothered. Now I’m gunning for them. I’m not letting my notions of “status” weigh me down. :P

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I would like to add that the stay at home dad bit is really awkward. On one hand, I can’t deny that if I’m already going to be a higher earner, and if I already suck at cooking and cleaning, it makes tons of sense. On the other hand, I’m the one who carries the babies, so who works when I’m, y’know, on maternity leave? And it’s not just the financial situation, it’s the idea that a stay at home dad completely goes against traditional roles… it makes me uncomfortable. So that’s also something I need to think about, and I challenge the ladies to think about it with me. If society is changing, how far outside of our comfort zones/biological instincts are we willing to go?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And it’s not just the financial situation, it’s the idea that a stay at home dad completely goes against traditional roles… it makes me uncomfortable.

      Last week the Globe had an article by a SAHD. The thing I found most interesting is that he found that his children often wanted their mother when they needed comforting, he was not viewed as an equal substitute. He’s convinced that children are programmed to be cared for by mom.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    It is changing the world in dramatic and pervasive ways. Those who lead the way must have considerable technical skills in addition to leadership skills. They will preside over armies of people with technical acumen. This is where nearly all future economic growth will originate.

    As long as we live in a social – interactions world, emotional and social intelligence are more important to success, and “owning the world” than raw power or technical skills. The guys with technical skills will always be hired and used by the machine but without the leadership (read, alpha drive), they wont climb the machine.

    These guys can prosper when the machine is set in a way it doesnt require drive or ambition, but focus and patience. Focus and patience they have.

    Say. I love chess. I wanted to be a grand master when I was a kid. I have a bunch of friends who, when you meet them, look like total losers. Like they need several rounds of geek-and-the-beauty extreme makeup sessions. Zero social skills. Introverted, cryptic, hard to deal with, etc. Then we start playing chess and they eat me alive. When you watch them play or do math or technical stuff they are proficient at, you understand where those neurones that left the social and mundane aspect of the life unattended are working on. And forget about talking them into solving their life like they solve other stuff. They are like white nerdy virgin.

    So for those guys to thrive, to be able to “own” society, we would need a totally automatized society that removed competition, removed social interactions, that placed you where your raw brain power and faculties are, but excludes you from the decision making progress ( so no leadership, beta or alpha drives required )

    … I might have the story for a book there! forget BNW or 1984. This is it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As long as we live in a social – interactions world, emotional and social intelligence are more important to success, and “owning the world” than raw power or technical skills. The guys with technical skills will always be hired and used by the machine but without the leadership (read, alpha drive), they wont climb the machine.

      True, but increasingly social communication and technology are melding. So yes, a guy will have to have leadership skills to run the show, but a guy without technical skills won’t even have a place in the organization. Most of us are hired and used by the machine, technology or no.

      I think it’s a big mistake to assume that STEM guys have no social skills. White nerdy virgins are the outliers and will remain so. Yes, men on the spectrum tend to cluster in STEM. But again, that’s a relatively small percentage of the population. Increasingly, the STEM fields will attract the ambitious and the creative as well as the smart. I see it as inevitable.

  • Doug1

    Jesus—

    And nice mangina like white knighting on your part saving your stripper gal from the “bohemian” NYC drug culture and helping her to get into law school.

    Calling me a mangina is a laugh riot. I’m openly and extensively anti-feminist.

    She was really happy I pulled her away from getting hooked on drugs, before she was, but not a whole lot before I guesstimated and she agreed. I got tons out of it as well. And yeah we had threesomes a few times with two of her stripper friends, one of whom I/we took down to the Caribbean on a 10 day catamaran one way island hopping sailing vacation. (The girls paid their airfares but I charted the sailboat.) They were both topless most of the time while we were sailing and sometimes full on nude. Fun times.

  • Doug1

    Jesus—

    This is probably why guys with high counts feel less attracted to a girl after they bed her.

    I have what most here would consider a high count I’m sure, not at Yohami levels, but high. I’d say most of the time after bedding most girls I feel slightly less attracted to them, especially if I just regarded them as “conquests” without any interest to check out a relationship, concurrent or otherwise, with her. But with girls I am strongly attracted to, who are really sexual and good in bed, and smart and fun to talk to and so on, then I tend to be more attracted to her after sex and intimacy, not less.

    You have tons of rather rigid deductive reasoning ideas it seems. You sort of remind me of Whiskey sometimes.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Yohami,
    The chess nerds? I think you just described my boyfriend. I was hanging out with two of his good childhood friends one night, and one of them asked me, “So what attracted you to him? Because I’ve never met a girl who was actually interested in him. You don’t understand how anti-social he was in high school, you’ve done wonders for him.” Weird, because while he’s socially awkward, I don’t see him as particularly anti-social. He’s introverted, but he’s not the hermit they say he used to be.

    Anyway, what attracted me to him? Well, we were both drunk when we met, and I tell people it’s because he was a great conversationalist. When I think about that in the context of his white nerdy virgin-ness and chess skills, I think that’s what DID attract me. That he might have limited social skills (he’s terrible in groups), but that he understood things at a higher level than most people, and could talk the “smart-people” talk. I’ve written about this before, but I’ll say it again: as a nerdy girl, I’ve had trouble finding people who are interested in intellectual discussions, especially in college (which is maybe why I spend so much time at HUS… people are freaking smart here!). You start talking to the average classmate about something besides drinking and boys, and you get the filmy glazed over look.

    My boyfriend isn’t like that. We don’t bore each other, and while I’m not a STEM person, I’ve had moments where I can discuss simple statistics with him. And he can talk about humanities stuff with me, and that makes me happy. Interestingly, I’ve had 0 success introducing him to my friends… they just don’t think or communicate on the same wavelength. So I guess what I’m saying is nerdy guys and nerdy girls make good matches.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    I wince to use such strong language but the whole “I find a guy disgusting if he slept with a stripper” strikes me as straight-up bigotry, a transparent intrasexual status play that happens to be routed through the man in question.

    And it’s funny how obtuse people are being in terms of refusing to even try to understand what the sexual marketplace is like for men, and why it shows tremendous skill and game to acquire the sexual goods of a stripper on your terms, to get her to one-itis for you.

    I can see you girls now, in some pillared aristocratic house, sipping tea in white gloves saying in hushed tones “I CAHN’T believe he’s caVORTing with that hussy!”

  • Doug1

    Byron—

    In the UK it’s far more of a seedy subculture, nothing like as above ground as it appears to be in the US, & I’ve honestly never seen the appeal – getting needlessly turned on by a generically attractive woman who’s no intention of fucking you anyway. Horrible, ugly phenomenon, like the ultimate cock-tease.

    In the US there are various levels of clubs. Some are indeed very seedy and have lots of skanks in them, often druggie girls. Some in the bigger cities and far more upscale

    I’ve never gone to them much. Once in a while. I think of them sorta like you’re saying, as being sucker traps for guys mostly, esp. the ones who drop lots of money at them. That’s one of the reasons Texas Stripper’s continuing to dance at her club, though after moving in with me in the day instead of nighttime, didn’t actually make me jealous. As well, ours was clearly going to be a relationship we were both going to move on from at some point, and it was obvious at what point when with my encouragement she applied to law schools.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Byron,

    Yeah, it smells like intrasexual competition -> slut shaming. How many times you´ve heard the “I cant believe he´s going out with that slut”, which means “If girls are putting it out so cheap nobody is going to pay the full price for my stuff”. And has the side reading of “wow all these sluts pick the same guy, his stuff might be good” and “I wonder how can I get him to buy my stuff! Maybe I´ll give him a freebie”

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    My comment was in response to Badger´s

  • Rum

    Charm
    You need not worry so much that a worthwhile guy does not already understand the importance of character and the transitory nature of physical attractiveness. Those truths are right out in the open for everyone to observe.
    Here is where the sexes mis-read the other in regard to attraction vs character.
    Guys never say it but they assume that a woman consciously knows how much he values being turned on by her hotness. So he proceeds to assume that a woman of good character would naturally commit herself to a good faith effort to perserve her hottness in his eyes within the realms of possibility (age, babies, illness, etc.) When a woman does that for him it is taken as a sign of the very best of character traits and would place enormous force behind all of the other reasons he is going to have for staying around and being a good husband. Likewise, if his woman lets her hottness go to seed because of mere sloth; he feels that he is dealing with a woman of very low character.
    The problem of course that young women almost never think think this way unless they are taught to and nowadays feminists try hard to teacch them the opposite since they are born.
    They are taught that men and women have nearly the same instincts and perceptions and that the male oppressor at any rate should owe a lot of a woman but never the other way around.
    Thus, for men, looks and character in the context of a relationship are often inseparable. Saying, ” accept my good character and true inner self even if I sloth my way to unfuck-ability” is not going to work. It looks to a guy like a load of contradictions.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    LOL Badger, I understand your frustration. I’d challenge you to think about the gut reaction a little more deeply. On a purely intellectual level, I completely understand the SMP situation for men, and I get that serious skills are required to “conquer the stripper’s oneitis instincts,” if you will. On the other hand, I wouldn’t call Anna and Sassy bigots, and I must admit I have a similar gut reaction (though, like I said, the gut reaction doesn’t always determine my opinions of or feelings about people).

    But if you think about the gut reaction as a biological instinct, you can see beyond the apparent bigotry. Check Anna’s response to me:

    Even if the guy’s relationship to strippers were completely sexual, my thought would be “only strippers considered this man good enough”. Or “where does he usually spend his time to meet women like this”. In Mike’s case, 4 out of 5 women he’s had are strippers, so honestly something sounds a bit off there. I’m put off by stripper pasts in the same way I’m put off men who has mostly slept with absolute sluts, call girls or just generally women with fewer options relationship-wise.

    That sounds to me like straight-up preselection. She’s not interested in a guy she thinks has few options. It’s combined with a stereotypical understanding of strippers (and can you blame her? girls know nothing about strippers unless they know them personally… we don’t go to strip clubs), but it’s rooted in preselection. That’s not bigotry, that’s female biological instincts right there. Sassy hasn’t gone into as much detail about her gut reaction, but I kind of suspect it’s somewhat related. So is mine. On the other hand, Anacaona, who seems to be very low on the hypergamy spectrum, doesn’t have the same gut reaction. The girls who have responded fall somewhere in the middle or extreme end of that spectrum. So I know the way we’ve talked about it bugs you, but think about it the context of what we’ve already discussed about female biological drives. It might make more sense.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That sounds to me like straight-up preselection. She’s not interested in a guy she thinks has few options. It’s combined with a stereotypical understanding of strippers (and can you blame her? girls know nothing about strippers unless they know them personally… we don’t go to strip clubs), but it’s rooted in preselection. That’s not bigotry, that’s female biological instincts right there.

      Exactly. Being preselected by strippers, no matter how picky they are, conveys low status and low ability to attract women.

  • Doug1

    Rum—

    That is easy. (I am trying to not repeat any of the several jokes about this that all have the same punch line). Honestly, the one that is nicest to be around and whose lust for me feels more genuine.

    The status rank of her job has only a microscopic bearing on any of this. Smart is important, obviously, but smartness is developed and expressed in many arenas outside of the career game.

    Yeah pretty much. I wouldn’t want to be with a woman who had a higher powered or clearly higher status or higher paying job than my own though.

    Also there’s good kinds of female status and bad kinds. Good kinds are she went to a good college and comes from a good family with an accomplished father. A good status kind of job would be she works as a copy editor for a good magazine, like the New Yorker. Bad kinds of high status so far as I’m concerned is that she’s a litigating partner at a NYC BigLaw firm.

  • Emily

    Re: girls not wanting to date with guys who have been with strippers.

    I think the issue is less about the strippers’ sluttiness, and more about their social class. Even though guys don’t care about a woman’s career, it’s something that women notice both about men and each other. So even if the stripper ex *does* have a really hot body, most women still don’t want to be lumped into a group that includes strippers. Yes, the women are hot and can do amazing flips and stuff. (I’ve only been to one strip club but I was honestly impressed!) But in terms of perceived social status, it’s one of the lowest jobs that a woman can have.

    Even Doug said that his stripper girlfriend tells people that she’s a Columbia grad student. It has a lot to do with the general social stigma that the profession carries.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Here’s my take on the stripper issue:

      It’s what I’ve been describing – women don’t want manwhores, who they think have “dirty dicks.” And we think that guys who go to strippers are manwhores. I realize from Mike’s story that is not the case, but in general, despite what has been said by some men in this thread, stripping is viewed as the third lowest-status profession in the U.S.(after hooker and porn actress), in the eyes of women. I defy you to find one mother who would welcome such a choice for her daughter, including a stripper herself. It’s a sad and depressing world that strippers navigate, and while there are a few educated women who are highly paid strippers or prostitutes, and write about it, they are few.

      It may be true that among men, nailing a stripper gets you a high five, but it will never be a plus for a woman. We don’t care how “selective” a stripper is about who she bangs, this is a woman who has brought many strange men to orgasm by rubbing her vagina on their junk or giving them blowjobs. There may be women who do nothing but dance, but that’s certainly not what’s portrayed in popular culture, and you’re not going to find women who believe that a stripper may be chaste.

      YMMV, but for most women a man having dated a stripper will be a dealbreaker. Then again, I would imagine that few men would date both strippers and the women who judge them.

      Just as you will never get rid of the sexual double standard, you will never get rid of females judging other females for selling their sexuality. It’s hardwired. By the way, women will often look down on gold diggers, girls with sugar daddies, etc. too. Same thing. Sex for sale.

      I wouldn’t call it intrasexual female competition, because what we’re discussing here is shunning men who date strippers, not competing for them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Even Doug said that his stripper girlfriend tells people that she’s a Columbia grad student.

      I agree, that is very revealing. Society’s values hold that good women do not take off their clothes for paid viewers.

  • Doug1

    Chris in LA—

    @Susan
    I think it’s feminist garbage. It’s a feel-good piece intended to delude women into following the “strong independent male-shaming” herd.

    “Being opinionated keeps a guy on his toes.” Well, sure…I run fastest on the balls of my feet. And if a woman’s in my face with a bunch of loud opinions (usually designed to ‘prove’ she’s a ‘strong woman’), I’m running at full tilt!

    Agreed. That Cosmo article was indeed the standard feminist garbage on the subject.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Re: girls not wanting to date with guys who have been with strippers.

    Lets clear intrasexual competition from the equation.

    Does this apply for hookers? or going at it with a slutty but unattractive girl? Are you girls really disqualifying a guy based on his lower denominator

    Or are you really reacting on the disgust you already had for the Stripper. She being hot, capitalizing male attention, giving it away for cheap.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Susan,
    Yes, as you might know, my grad school concentration is Maternal and Child Health. We’ve talked so much about the importance of the mother-child connection that the SAHD thing does sort of weird me out. I wonder if the proponents of SAHD-ism (is that a thing? lol) have been programmed by feminists who want women to have long, successful careers. The most interesting aspect of the whole thing is what you’ve said about living in upper-middle-class communities: that many of the women are SAHMs. That is particularly revealing when you think about the fact that women are more likely to be highly educated in upper-middle-class communities.

    On the other hand, many households cannot get by with just one parent working anymore. So in that context, you can see why it makes sense for a woman to invest in a career. It’s a very complicated situation IMO.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Yohami,
    Check my comment at 667 in response to Badger. I think it’s a preselection thing.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    This post is not about whether women are attracted to alphas.

    The post isn’t but some of the comments have been.

    This post is about men with high partner counts tiring quickly of women after one sexual encounter.

    As I’ve said repeatedly that depends on how attracted I was to the woman in the first place, on all sorts of levels. If she’s hot, great in bed, smart, and fun to talk to and be around, I’ll generally be more attracted to her after first time sex and after getting to know all those things about her than I was before hand. If I regarded her as nothing more than a conquest in the first place, then yeah, I’ll be somewhat less attracted to her afterwards, because, well been there, done that. I’ve got options sort of thing.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    That the future is more technical and scientific, yes for sure. But tech also becomes normalized. Now every kid operates several computers. Without being a *nerd*. And we´re reading and writing to unprecedent levels. Now we should increase the quality of such.

    I dont know what STEM means btw, I guess its an acronym for “Science Techno Emotions & Magic”, or maybe “Shoot The Electric Messanger”

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Olive,

    So if the guy went with a hooker or dated a very slutty but unattractive girl, you feel the exact same thing as with a stripper?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Or lets say the guy PAID the stripper to have sex with her, after N months or years of celibacy. Do you still feel the same level of disgust?

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Yohami,
    As a gut reaction, yes, sort of. I can think of one particular girl I knew in college (if you read my blog, you know her as Kelly)… if a guy dated her, I’d really have to think about how I feel about him.

    But I’m trying to figure out where I fall on the hypergamy spectrum. I’m not as low as Anacaona, but I think I’m significantly lower than Anna, and maybe a bit lower than Sassy (though I think we’re pretty similar). The stripper thing doesn’t really bug me THAT much, now that I’ve thought about it. And if I was with a really great guy who admitted he’d hook up with or dated Kelly, I’d be a little put-off but I wouldn’t automatically write him off.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Yohami at 680,
    No. I’m not at all disgusted by Mike, for example.

  • Emily

    Yohami,

    For me, seeing a hooker is FAR worse than being with a stripper or a slutty unattractive girl.

    The other two would make me cringe, but the hooker would be a deal-breaker for me. Although this has a lot to do with my own moral stances with regards to prostitution.

    I agree with Olive that it’s a pre-selection thing. I think the slutty unattractive girl might be worse than the stripper, unless the slutty unattractive girl had some awesome accomplishments or a really great personality or something. (Again, I know that men don’t care about those things, but women really do.)

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    And Mike didn’t even pay the stripper. But a guy who paid after frustration with celibacy also would disgust me. But this is why I think I’m not that high on the hypergamy spectrum.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Damn. I meant *wouldn’t* disgust me in 687. Stupid typos.

  • Anacaona

    @Byron
    Is a Joss Whedon story no relationship ever works out.

    @Susan
    I don’t know it might be because I’m having issues conceiving but I think is better to become a smart dater early on in life, marry as soon as you find a man compatible and of good character have children and go to college while they are educating themselves in school. There is no age for getting higher education but the ovaries do have an expiration date. My mother managed to get both prioritizing marriage and children without access to so much free knowlegde in devices like the internet. 90% of the things I learned in life I learned reading everything I could pass the first page off since I was six, my parents work and relationship ethics and observing people. So delaying education makes more sense than delaying family as long as you learn how to pick a good partner, which I believe is probably the most important skill, as long as you don’t are much materialistic of course the “dream life” is probably the reason most people need to educate first settle down later, YMMV.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      So glad you’re back among our digital family :)

      So delaying education makes more sense than delaying family as long as you learn how to pick a good partner, which I believe is probably the most important skill, as long as you don’t are much materialistic of course the “dream life” is probably the reason most people need to educate first settle down later, YMMV.

      You may recall someone suggested that last week – women having children early and then going to school. It makes some sense, biologically speaking. If it ever happened in a widespread way, you’d have guys in college age 18-22 and women age 26-30 or so. I bet everyone would get a lot more work done. :)

      IOW, I have no problem with delaying education, but I am suspicious of anyone who suggests that it’s probably best for women to bypass education altogether, because it is a “waste.”

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Olive

    I really didn’t want to weigh in on the stripper subthread… but it ties in to some of the things I think both women and men misunderstand about status.

    There are two human status hierarchies, divided by sex. The rules for competition are different.

    Men’s competition is regulated by the simple fact that it’s not smart to goad a 130 pound man into a killing rage. Think going postal. Think Columbine HS. When bullying gets truly pathological the results are predictable. That’s no excuse, but you don’t step out in front of a moving truck even if you do have right-of-way in a crosswalk.

    Women’s competition nastier because it much more rarely becomes openly violent. The potential downside is lower.

    We have not yet clearly separated the work status hierarchy from either. I think we need to. The work status hierarchy was originally set up under the men’s rules, and I don’t think we function well without them. I think women could adapt more easily.

    Association with a high status man can increase a woman’s status. Association with a high status woman does not increase a man’s status nearly as much.

    You don’t like a man’s associations with low status strippers because it damages his potential for increasing your status in the women’s hierarchy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dinkney

      You don’t like a man’s associations with low status strippers because it damages his potential for increasing your status in the women’s hierarchy.

      I don’t think so. I think women are saying they don’t want those men. Prostitutes are available to men who are willing to pay for it, and strippers, while they may not have sex for money (thought some obviously do) are in that general line of work.

      It’s interesting, because the same men who are claiming that women can’t resist a man with a large number of women in his past are now claiming that women are somehow envious of strippers. In fact, it’s simply that they can resist a man, or be repelled by a man, with a small number of women in his past other than strippers. I don’t want to offend anyone, but there’s logic missing in this thread.

  • Doug1

    Susan

    @Badger
    Well, Karen Owen, slut of all sluts, had sex with the highest status athletes on campus. Of course she wasn’t banging nerds. Does that make her discriminating?

    Yes, it does.

    She was not however requiring any kind of lasting or exclusive relationship before giving up sex – though she was I think the repeat fuck buddy of several of the white Duke athletes she slept with.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Does that make her discriminating?

      Yes, it does.

      Wrong. By definition a slut is a woman who is not discerning.

      I happen to know for a fact that those lax players were boycotted by the top sororities at Duke – many of them were in SAE, and the frat struggled to get women to its parties. This is quite remarkable, after the enormous support and sympathy the lax players received from fellow students in 2006. All of the guys Karen Owen had sex with were in “committed relationships” with other women. They were all total douches. Karen Owen had been shut out and shunned by girls at Duke, having only one friend – a girl named Candace (known as Mandace) who was the only woman to show up when Playboy invited Duke students to audition for the mag. IIRC, Karen Owen got a second round with one of the guys. BTW, Karen Owen’s presentation included just the 13 varsity athletes she banged. She probably had 100 sexual partners at Duke.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Very interesting. Now, how about if the stripper is her?

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9RL40somtc0/TS1i3-oAkdI/AAAAAAAAHDM/sh2FeYK7Vew/s1600/s8.jpg

  • Wudang

    I can see you girls now, in some pillared aristocratic house, sipping tea in white gloves saying in hushed tones “I CAHN’T believe he’s caVORTing with that hussy!”

    They also fail to recognize that almost every man that is willing to have casual sex would jump at the opotunity to have sex with a stripper if he had the chance. Its not much of a screening tool to weed out guys that have.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      They also fail to recognize that almost every man that is willing to have casual sex would jump at the opotunity to have sex with a stripper if he had the chance. Its not much of a screening tool to weed out guys that have.

      A word of advice, then. Don’t tell any woman you’re interested in that you have done this. The best thing you can hope for is indifference. There is no upside and enormous downside.

      Both men and women have shamed the sale of a woman’s sexual favors from the beginning of time. The idea that this is just the entitlement of a bunch of jealous biddies is ridiculous.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Dinkney Pawson,
    Yeah I completely agree with you. But this:

    You don’t like a man’s associations with low status strippers because it damages his potential for increasing your status in the women’s hierarchy.

    is preselection. The more I read about female intrasexual competition, the more I think it has everything to do with preselection, and nothing to do with “internalized sexism,” which is what I thought when I originally came to HUS. The level to which preselection affects a woman’s taste in men is based on where she falls on the hypergamy spectrum (which is definitely a spectrum). That’s why not all women are the same. The manosphere’s habit of painting all women into the same corner is a mistake, IMO. If they don’t like entitled women who only sleep with assholes, they should go for someone a little less hypergamous, like Anacaona. Or at least someone who understands her own gut reactions, who won’t let herself be derailed by the hamster (I got that phrase from Danny lol… love that guy, great blog).

    Women’s competition nastier because it much more rarely becomes openly violent. The potential downside is lower.

    This is SO interesting. I have always thought that emotional hurt is worse than physical hurt. With the physical hurt, your cut is healed, you go right back to being friends with the dude who punched you in the face in a drunken fight (at least, that’s how my brother’s friends work it). But women are so… mean. I had a discussion with a good friend last night about girls. We both said as a general rule, we don’t trust girls. Both of us had bad histories with mean girls as children. I wish there was a way to change this, but I don’t know how, and I don’t know if it’s changeable.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Yohami,
    I mean, if a guy slept with Natalie Portman (and I don’t care if she’s a stripper), I’d ask wtf he’s doing with me, go back to Natalie Portman.

    Really though. A guy who gets with Natalie wouldn’t get with me. I’m not that hot. And most girls aren’t.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    P.S. If the guy who did Natalie then developed oneitis for me, I’d be head over heels, provided I was compatible with the guy and everything. Oneitis does not turn me off.

    If the guy wanted a 1-way open with Natalie, I’d tell him to get outta here.

  • Doug1

    Sassy—

    Saying strippers are the most selective out of all women just doesn’t seem correct. If that’s the case, regular women like me are screwed.

    They’re not more selective than lingerie models or hot actresses, but rather less.

    Hot and very hot strippers (certainly not all strippers are either) just about never are attracted to any kind of beta. They’re typically attracted to bad boys of one type or another. They don’t tend to be attracted to guys with the highest mainstream social status. They’re typically attracted to guys with a lot of solid inner game though.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      They’re typically attracted to bad boys of one type or another.

      Bad boys are low status, except within their low status communities, e.g. prison, organized crime, drug dealers, etc.

  • Anacaona

    @Olive
    I’m blushing from all your references, thanks.
    I do believe hypergamy and cattyness are probably related given that I always hated the female “I hate her because she is prettier or got a man I wish I could have” the slut-shaming is something I started to support after years of evidence of how much havok they break for society (and sorry I love civilization what is bad for it goes into my black list) before that I had plenty of slut friends. The same with cheating years of seeing cheating in every stage and of every kind You can’t convince me is a good idea or is justified ever. So yeah I will keep pondering on that.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Olive

    “Academic infighting is nasty because the stakes are so low.”

    You also might do nasty things when playing games that you’d never do in real life.

    I think you have status and hypergamy/preselection backwards. Your ambition to compete in the women’s status hierarchy influences how hypergamous you might be.

    Preselection is one way a woman gauges a man’s ability to improve her status. If a man gets a great deal of high status female attention then linking up with him will improve her status.

    Attention from strippers is not high-status. He has to pay for it.

    At some point in the modern world a woman’s place in the female status hierarchy is moot. If she can find a mate and they can support themselves and their family they don’t need the female support structure so much.

  • Rum

    Olive
    Dinkey said something very important. It deserves to be studied carefully, imho. – In the world that most guys grow up into (Guyland) most realize at some point that getting killed – as in getting permanently dead – is a very real possibility if you cross certain lines or make certain mistakes with the wrong people. After puberty, most guys become strong enough to kill another man with just a piece of wood and also discover within themselves the complete set of mental wirings to actually do it in certain situations. Try to get a look at Richard Geres scene in the movie “Unfaithful” where he confronts his wifes lover. It is chilling as hell. Every guy alive should have seen it coming. The ones who did not should be sent back to school.
    A big reason guys do not care as much about getting their feelings hurt is that deep down that is not what they are really afraid of. Having to deal with full-on murderous rage – is.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Dinkney Pawson,

    “Academic infighting is nasty because the stakes are so low.”

    Hm, I don’t think I said this… what do you mean? Could you explain?

    You also might do nasty things when playing games that you’d never do in real life.

    Could you explain this too? What do you mean by playing games?

    I think you have status and hypergamy/preselection backwards. Your ambition to compete in the women’s status hierarchy influences how hypergamous you might be.

    Actually, I don’t think I agree with this. Hypergamy/preselection are rooted in biology. Female ambition in the academic environment is a recent development, rooted in social conditions that allow women to be educated. So, one goes away when we remove the social conditions, one never goes away, not even in the wild. Hypergamy is not about status, it’s about selecting superior genes. What is perceived as “superior genes” has changed based on societal notions of who has the most status, but that’s the original reason why women evolved to be hypergamous.

  • Wudang

    OLive, about physical hurt vs emotional hurt. Lots of guys, and some women, love to do martial arts were tehy get punched and kicked just as hard as they would in a real fight and accept that without much difficulty or quite often love it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I just remembered something interesting. Lady Raine had been a stripper, and Roissy shamed her mercilessly for it. In fact, IIRC, he claimed it made her an unfit mother. (It was when he put up pics of her in skimpy clothing, next to pics of her son, that she vowed revenge.) Not sure what to make of that.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Rum,
    Yeah I’ve thought about that a lot, except I think about it from the female perspective. Guys are not dicks just to be dicks, because they have to worry about physical altercations. With women, it’s a different story. Women don’t need to worry about being killed by each other, because they are not the “killers” in nature. So instead, they can damage each other emotionally and not pay the price (go to jail or whatever), but still inflict lasting pain on their enemies. It sucks to be on the receiving end of that, I don’t think many men understand what it’s like.

  • Doug1

    Babydoll—

    So now what? Play down my career and related successes? I am not being snide, but I am sure there are others here like me who have careers which may fall in the lawyer sphere and who have worked hard to get where they are today. It’s disheartening to know that the same drive and ambition that has reaped me many rewards may ultimately leave me sidelined when it comes to relationships. I work in finance, if that helps.

    You basically have two choices. Either play it down and ease back on it, or try to get men even more successful than you’ve been. You have a better shot at doing that by accepting a sizeable age gap.

    The fact is few men want women more or even equally as successful as they are, and what’s more, few women stay attracted to husbands who are less so, or who even worse become male stay at home homemakers. There was an article in Marie Clare that Heartiste/Roissy linked and posted about a couple of years ago written by a high powered career woman and feminist who to her ideological discomfort discovered just this about the change in her feelings of attracted to not towards her husband of six or so years who did become a house husband.

    Feminists had sold American and Anglosphere women generally a bill of goods.

  • WarmWoman

    Badger:”Women just can’t seem to see that it’s not that a man will mark you down for being a “career woman,” it’s just irrelevant to his attraction to you. If you are physically attractive, pleasant, and seemed to be interested in him, a man will take you seriously as a relationship prospect.”

    I don’t know Badger, because I’ve had Indian men tell me that my career-oriented and so-called “Americanized mindset” is the reason why Indian men don’t take me seriously as a relationship prospect. When dating Indian men, I kept running into ones that wanted to P&D. When I started dating white men, they were the ones asking me for commitment and marriage. I don’t know why that is.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Olive,

    “I can’t deny that if I’m already going to be a higher earner, and if I already suck at cooking and cleaning, it makes tons of sense. On the other hand, I’m the one who carries the babies, so who works when I’m, y’know, on maternity leave? … So that’s also something I need to think about, and I challenge the ladies to think about it with me. If society is changing, how far outside of our comfort zones/biological instincts are we willing to go?”

    These are very important questions, & I commend you for asking them. In ten years or so we’re going to hear them being asked a whole lot more.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Olive

    … It sucks to be on the receiving end of that, I don’t think many men understand what it’s like.

    My little sister made a game of goading me. She knew she was perfectly safe. I did once put her out of the car a mile from home. The next time she did that she refused to get out of the car. I stopped giving her rides.

    @Warm Woman

    Culture differ. Men from the second and third generation, more Americanized, might not be so bad.

  • Doug1

    Olive—

    On the other hand, I’m the one who carries the babies, so who works when I’m, y’know, on maternity leave? And it’s not just the financial situation, it’s the idea that a stay at home dad completely goes against traditional roles… it makes me uncomfortable.

    I strongly think it also goes against the strong grain of female biological instinct.

    There are genuine and not just ideological outliers among men and women, but you don’t sound like an outlier.

    Frankly, although I’m sure you won’t at the moment likely welcome this, I see trouble ahead in your relationship with your bf. If you were my daughter I’d strongly suggest you look for a man who is and will likely remain more successful and higher status than you, or at least the same amount. That will be easier for a smart, top student and successful 6 to find if she considers considerably older guys.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “Guys are not dicks just to be dicks, because they have to worry about physical altercations. With women, it’s a different story. Women don’t need to worry about being killed by each other, because they are not the “killers” in nature. So instead, they can damage each other emotionally and not pay the price (go to jail or whatever), but still inflict lasting pain on their enemies. It sucks to be on the receiving end of that, I don’t think many men understand what it’s like.”

    Well, the thing is, men DO know what it’s like to be on the end of women’s emotional violence: it’s women who get the get-out-of-jail-free card when it comes to physical confrontation. Men know they can’t hit women, so women know they can do whatever the hell they like, with every weapon in the toolbox.

  • pvw

    Susan:

    I think you definitely hit on something when you mentioned “beta women.” I’ve been saying this recently. We have an elaborate sociosexual hierarchy for men, constantly debating what qualifies as true alpha, or whether beta traits are good or bad in a relationship. Yet we reduce women to one simple model, a sort of creature with a built-in hindbrain, complete with hamster wheel. It’s silly. Most importantly, men who buy into this are shooting themselves in the foot if they want a relationship. That view of female sexuality only works for short-term, no-strings sex.

    We’ve got respected scholars studying female psychology and sexuality as a highly complex phenomenon, and we’ve got players and pickup artists reducing women to a series of “tingles” generated by one thing only: aggressive dominance.

    Whose opinion should carry more weight? Ogi Ogas, respected academic and bestselling author, or a 22 year old knucklehead who barely made it through college? It’s laughable.

    My reply:

    This connects to Charm’s observations: “I get that looks matter to men. Well…I don’t “get” it, but I acknowledge it. I accept it. Sexual attraction and all that, but I’d hope men also took a long hard look at character. Hell, character might be most important considering the state of monogamy and marriage in today world;” and “Off the Cuff” on the Ladder Theory.

    My thoughts:

    I think that what is going on here is not only a failure to recognize the multifaceted triggers that can attract women to men and the various circumstances where those might operate, ie., a failure to recognize that “beta women” (however they may be defined–I tried to come up with a few) might exist, or if they do exist, they are seen as being unicorns, or they are of minimal value in terms of either short term or long term relationships, since they are not high status hb type women. Or they are presumed to be slutty hypergamous women who went with alpha men and lived the p&d lifestyle.

    In addition, there is lack of consensus on just what the real goals are here in terms of assessing men’s interests/needs in the current SMP. You have alluded to this before.

    You write for young women who want ltrs, but a fair number of the commentators are skeptical either of the possibility of ltrs for men in the current smp or who question whether men should even want them at all, ie., because of men’s experiences as incel or as men who have had bad experiences after marrying and then divorcing.

    I think it even comes up, perhaps not here, but on other blogs and even in real life, “she is merely average or cute, she isn’t an hb, why is he with her”?, as though her looks are all she has to offer and her good character might not count.

    I have seen this described as the halo effect, what has been described as men going with women of no character because they are hot or because they fulfill men’s sexual needs. The women are given extra points, a “halo” for that. Or their character is almost treated as irrelevant, because for so many men, all they want is an hb, and they seem to presume that good character follows the hb!

    Thus, there are those who would focus merely on manipulating the “gina tingles,” because that is what they want, the short term and they don’t give a hoot about a woman’s character when the short term is the goal. They just want the HB for now and will only think later, if at all, about the character thing…

    Yet, there are young men of the beta type whose stories we have read here who are thinking about ltrs and a woman’s character, but like those who would “virgin same” the “beta women,” they are being shamed too for not focusing on what some think should really be important, being a pua seeking short term sex with a hb.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PVW

      Yet, there are young men of the beta type whose stories we have read here who are thinking about ltrs and a woman’s character, but like those who would “virgin same” the “beta women,” they are being shamed too for not focusing on what some think should really be important, being a pua seeking short term sex with a hb.

      Yes. Interestingly, those are the guys who write to me, and when I give them advice suitable for their temperament, i.e. relationship game, the PUAs get all upset. I’ve been accused of stunting these guys’ development by not urging them to view women as entirely fungible. And they can’t fathom that some men do not want to wind up like them.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger
  • Charm

    @Rum

    Thanks for your response. I don’t doubt that what you say is very true, but I, as a woman, can’t process it. Its a very straight forward answer and Im a very straight forward person but no matter how much I try to get it I just don’t. There’s a disconnect. Dare I say, its because I’m a woman? Lol. I bet the feminist would hate to hear that one. I want to take what you said and over analyze it and pick each piece apart but I wont. It is what it is.

    @Olive

    Ive pretty much accepted that the odds of me having a “traditional” anything are pretty low. The odds of me making more money than my future spouse, as you said, are high. The odds of me being taller than my spouse are high since Im an inch taller than the average american man. Probably going to have to date out of my race because Im an atheist. So, I don’t really have much room to feel uncomfortable about anything. I put all that to rest a while ago.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Susan

    Topic suggestion: How to Keep Your Hindbrain Happy with Your Man.

    Women vary on a spectrum of hypergamy. Women have different combinations of attraction triggers. Wherever a woman lies on those spectra, there is a distinct possibility that her hindbrain will sabotage her relationship. What can she do to prevent that?

    Women’s magazines go at it from the other end, how to keep the man happy, which might help. What can she do more directly?

    One suggestion I have is to learn to appreciate beta competence displays.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dinkney

      Interesting idea, but I think rather than keeping the hindbrain happy I would encourage women to migrate some of their thinking to the cerebral frontal cortex. I love your idea about competence displays, but how to teach women how to appreciate them? The first step is that we need more displays, I think. Men need interests to develop competence, and they also need ways to display or share that competence in front of women. A STEM guy is going to have limited opportunities for that, so he needs to have some other things going on – theater, cooking, whatever.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Charm

    My confusion, I think come from the fact that you have two different types of men who feel “competed” with:

    Guy A. Has an average job and doesn’t have much drive or ambition to advance so doesn’t want a woman who is naturally driven or ambitious because she makes him feel inadequate.

    Guy B. Has a average/above average job. Likes women who are intellectual and successful career wise BUT doesn’t like the woman who shoves her successes down his throat constantly.

    Byryon spoke to this very well at #606. In fact, a great deal of good discussion has already been had on this. I’m not sure I need to weigh in!

    Just to clarify my own position earlier…I did mean the latter. Mostly. The two can inter-relate; women who shove their successes at others are usually trying to make THEM feel inadequate (as well as propping up their own ego).

    Nothing wrong with drive. Drive does not equal ballbusting though, despite current propaganda.

    I feel like Guy A is pretty prevalent and wont admit to his discomfort openly in fear of being shamed for it, though I think as a society men and women are conditioned to believe men should be more successful than women so I kind of understand where they are coming from.

    There’s an important point in here. Men are shamed for almost everything now. Up to and including this double standard we’re talking about. They’re even shamed for success!

    Which is why some men simply stop showing emotion. Or study Game, as an offensive strategy. Or turn to video games & porn. Or give up on dating.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Byron and Dinkney Pawson,
    Yeah that’s true, I didn’t think about men being on the end of women’s crap. I guess the sucky thing, for women, is they can’t be direct in shutting that down. It’s not polite, it’s not seen as acceptable behavior for a woman to call her friend out on her nasty games. But I think reasonable women will listen to guys who tell them to knock it off. It has to do with how women communicate vs. how men communicate. Women aren’t direct, so we have to LET our friends bring us down. That’s the root of the emotional pain. Unless you are incredibly strong, you can’t get rid of women who treat you like crap (I might be an outlier here, though I’m not sure. I’ve been known to walk out of friendships because I’m sick of the drama).

    Doug,
    You’re not the first one here to tell me there are going to be problems in my relationship. It’s fine, I’ll figure it out.

  • WarmWoman

    “@Warm Woman

    Culture differ. Men from the second and third generation, more Americanized, might not be so bad.”

    Yes-The men that I’ve dated had immigrant parents that came to America in the 70’s. So, I guess that makes us first generation?

    My brother comes off as very liberal and Americanized, yet he only wanted to marry a girl from India. He refused to marry an Indian girl that was born here. I never asked him why. His wife doesn’t speak English well, and he doesn’t speak her language well either.

  • Charm

    @Chris_in_Ca

    Wait, how are men shamed for success?

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Charm

    Height is the least of your worries as long as you don’t demand a man two meters tall in his stocking feet. A woman nearly the same height has many mechanical advantages. For example, that means he can pat you on the derrière without stooping. You do have to cooperate if you ever want him to carry you, say, over the threshold. A young man in reasonable condition can do it. You might want to practice.

    Look for a man in a completely unrelated field that you can admire. There are still geniuses in the skilled trades. Look for a guy who’s a wizard at a job that will give you chances to admire his skill.

    Try a larger age difference. An older man becomes calmer. I’m not nearly as driven by my juices as I was 30 years ago. You don’t need 20 years difference, just enough to harness the hamster. Try the STEM fields. A great many of us got burned too often and checked out of the SMP. That doesn’t mean we won’t check back in if the opportunity comes up. I did.

    You will have to find ways to keep your hindbrain happy. Your hindbrain wants a high-status man. It may not want it as strongly as the next girl’s, but it does want it.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Charm,
    Glad to hear it! Sounds like you know about your own situation in the SMP, which is always good.

    Dinkney Pawson,
    That’s kinda what my blog is about, actually. My original idea was to call it How to Date a Beta, but that would require me to stay with my boyfriend forever and I’d have to write more about our relationship, which wouldn’t be fair to him (since I’d be broadcasting the good and the bad in one, easily accessible place on the internet. Awkward). But I’ve thought a lot about how to keep my hindbrain in check, since my BF is a classic beta insecure oneitis kinda guy (the insecurity is what I’ve had to stretch myself for). Maybe I’ll write a post about that.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “Yet we reduce women to one simple model, a sort of creature with a built-in hindbrain, complete with hamster wheel. It’s silly. Most importantly, men who buy into this are shooting themselves in the foot if they want a relationship.”

    I’m in general agreement here, women are quite diverse in what they want in a partner, but aren’t you kind of promoting this view a little bit? Advocating light or soft “game” or whatever it’s called as the solution to every lonely guy who wants a girlfriend?

    All the so-called “game” in the world would’t have landed me the woman I’m with now. She’s neither a “girly girl” nor has she ever been attracted to stereotypical dominant types.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      Advocating light or soft “game” or whatever it’s called as the solution to every lonely guy who wants a girlfriend?

      Well, light game might also be called “self-confidence.” Today, so many guys have trouble conveying that sense of self when interacting with women. It’s great that you found your wife, but we know there are a lot of guys in the desert.

      I’m not a fan of aggression, asshole Game or Dark Game. Some women are – the kind that will willingly be part of some harem or other open arrangement. Good, let’s just let those types pair off.

      Light Game includes things like learning how to approach a woman you don’t know, how to tease a bit, how to be a little mysterious, so that she wonders just how much you like her. As I see it, both men and women benefit from this.

      Game is really nothing more than the study of female psychology. It can be misused, certainly, but I’m on board with Jedi Game.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Charm

    One example: Witness the earlier discussion on branding guys successful with women as players. I think Susan said something about the term applied as a pejorative.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chris

      One example: Witness the earlier discussion on branding guys successful with women as players. I think Susan said something about the term applied as a pejorative.

      Players are not shamed for being attractive to women. They’re shamed for what they do with that attraction – which is to maximize the sexual payout with no regard for the woman’s experience, and view any damage inflicted as “collateral.”

      I wonder how many men would say they would like to be “played?” The word itself is pejorative, as it suggests taking advantage of another person.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Olive,

    “I didn’t think about men being on the end of women’s crap. I guess the sucky thing, for women, is they can’t be direct in shutting that down. “

    Well, one of the good things about being a woman is it’s perfectly acceptable to beat the living shit out of other women.

    I suggest carrying a baseball bat whenever hanging out with a band of bitches. Just lay that thing down on the table & glower.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Olive

    .. since my BF is a classic beta insecure oneitis kinda guy …

    I think he needs to get out of the house. I loved my mother dearly, but … He’ll need to contribute.

    What does he want? What has paid off for him in the past? What reminiscences take on a satisfied tone? What is he good at?

    Remember, you can’t fix someone. You might be able to make a space for them to fix themselves. Mostly though I think you have to find someone whose defects you can live with.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Olive

    … But I’ve thought a lot about how to keep my hindbrain in check …

    With all due respect, that’s the wrong approach. Good engineers work with the forces of nature, not against them. Enlist your hindbrain in you quest. Somehow.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Yet we reduce women to one simple model, a sort of creature with a built-in hindbrain, complete with hamster wheel. It’s silly. Most importantly, men who buy into this are shooting themselves in the foot if they want a relationship.”

    Yes and no. The fact is that the vast majority of women respond to some combination of physical traits, dominance, status, preselection (which is a display of mastery in the field of women) and effective emotional connection (flipping her right brain).

    (Status vs dominance? http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/03/30/social-prestige-versus-social-dominance/)

    These desires manifest in different ways and in different combinations, but it’s amazing how well relationships (successful or unsuccessful) are explained and analyzed once one is calibrated clue in to these factors. Athol Kay’s entire line of advice is dedicated to breaking down a reader’s balance of alpha and beta traits and prescribing the right titration.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The fact is that the vast majority of women respond to some combination of physical traits, dominance, status, preselection (which is a display of mastery in the field of women) and effective emotional connection (flipping her right brain).

      Yes, and there are an infinite number of combinations, with an infinite number of different weights on each factor. That includes dominance – for many women a smidgen is enough. The fact that plenty of women love emo hipsters is proof of that.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Susan,

    “True, but increasingly social communication and technology are melding. So yes, a guy will have to have leadership skills to run the show, but a guy without technical skills won’t even have a place in the organization.”

    but this only goes in one direction. GOod communicators figure out how to use technology as it comes along, but being good with technology doesn’t make you a better communicator.

    “I think it’s a big mistake to assume that STEM guys have no social skills. White nerdy virgins are the outliers and will remain so. Yes, men on the spectrum tend to cluster in STEM. But again, that’s a relatively small percentage of the population. Increasingly, the STEM fields will attract the ambitious and the creative as well as the smart. I see it as inevitable.”

    I’m glad to hear you say this, but multiple commenters here (including me) have noted that in college, if you let slip that you’re in the engineering department, the girls can just sort of fade away even if you are just a regular cool dude, not an inveterate geek. It’s not cool to be in the lab honing your craft instead of getting shitfaced. So what social skills they do have get stunted in development. It’s a very bad society that sets up large numbers of men to be celibate and uncomforted by women in their physical primes of life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m glad to hear you say this, but multiple commenters here (including me) have noted that in college, if you let slip that you’re in the engineering department, the girls can just sort of fade away even if you are just a regular cool dude, not an inveterate geek.

      My point is that this will change. It has to. At some point in the not too distant future, there will be almost no English or psychology majors. There will be a flood of interest in tech, perhaps disguised as social media or something similar. We are truly in the midst of a revolution, and it will change the course of humanity. It’s already happening.

      That doesn’t mean women will flock to nerds. But it does mean that nerds are poised for a big status bump, and the nerds who have leadership qualities will run the whole show.

  • Charm

    @Dinky

    Thanks for your response. Id probably be a lot happier with someone at least 5-7 years older when Im ready to get married. They’d probably provide the stability I was looking for. Can I ask something though, why do STEM guy get passed up? I have two different types in my head:

    Guy A. Introverted, but has social skills. Interesting in math and science in highschool and deemed as “uncool” so this carried over to college where again he got no play. He’s got nerdy hobbies that could be attractive to a certain type of girl. A lot of other girls were all chasing the alpha/party/d-bags. After a while of having no attention, he became jaded and went his own way.

    Guy B. Introverted, but socially inept or really awkward. Again interested in science and math but doesn’t really care to get out there and meet people. So instead of developing social skills he just further jumps into nerdy hobbies, that are at the point of being unattractive and childlike.

    I feel like a while Guy A kind of grows into himself maybe in his later 20’s earlier 30’s while Guy B just ends up a super awkward virgin nerd. Id go for the former, and I hope most STEMs were like this, but I have a fear that they are more like the latter.

  • Mike

    In Mike’s case, 4 out of 5 women he’s had are strippers, so honestly something sounds a bit off there

    You’re right. I now know the lesson.

    Instead of following the sexual reward mechanism and continuing to try and attain sex in an environment where i had success rather than 10 years of failure by being a good decent chivalrous nice guy man, i should have instead applied what i learned at the strip club and applied it out in the real world.

    I should have become an a$$hole dark gamer, so i would only have 1 stripper notched on the post instead of 4 and the other 199 would be ‘good girls’. This would correct the ‘imbalance’ yes? Or perhaps it would be better if my number was zero and be found by my mother with a self inflicted gunshot to the head?

    I think the fact that i did only those 4 in a 2 year period, and then cast it all aside for my hopes of a real lifetime marriage (who used the strippers as social proof by the way, her interest level in me piqued when she found out) speaks more to my character than anything else. The marriage is what I *always* wanted, it just seemed like the opportunity was never to present itself. Good girls just didn’t seem interested in being my lover. Friend? By the dozens.

    But hey, it’s your opinion. And i swore i wouldn’t get carpel tunnel explaining myself. fail.

    I have no regrets having done what i did. *I* am not particularly proud of it, i self admit those were dark days for me. They were not relationships nor conquests. They were merely a means of sexual survival and a means to finally discover that i actually didn’t suck in bed, rather was quite a sensual machine (much to my exwifes delight). It is my male cohorts that conferred that status to me and ‘regal’ in my exploits. I will tell you it was surely better to hear them speak highly of me rather than poke the open festering wound that was my 2nd virginity. I was finally allowed into the male club again.. i could actually participate in discussions revolving around sex and not just talk about it in the purely theoretical realm. No more seeing ‘this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about’ in their eyes.

    I’ve heard/seen non-stop on dating sites, dear abby letters, and forums about a woman who goes through a 6 month dry spell as if it was the end of the world and entitles her to go out and pick a guy up ‘for fun’ just to feel sexy. I hear about women who feel unloved and unsexy because their men haven’t touched them for weeks. I want to grab each and every one of these women and yell in their faces saying You have NO F***ING IDEA! Women are allowed to have fun, it’s liberating, and don’t ask don’t tell absolves them from being tarred and feathered as I have been in the reverse role because i just happened to let my honesty do the talking (making a mental note too, honesty NOT the best policy). Factor in Mr. Pareto and the fact that i do not have the same option to just ‘go out and pick someone up’ off the street or in a bar and you have the makings of one of the greatest sexual double standards in the history of double standards.

    Simply imagine this. Go 1 year without sex/touch/a kiss. And it’s not because you choose or screen. It’s because NOBODY wants you, NOBODY flirts with you, NOBODY acknowledges you as a sexual being. Amplify that to 10 years, with a natural biological urge to seek out sex every day during your early adolescence, and the stigma and peer shaming of being a loser guy who can’t get none…

    Seriously, close your eyes and do it. I’ll wait.

    Did that feel good?

    So yes i have learned my lesson. That if any girl i date confesses to even having 1 moment of weakness to dating a jock, athlete, musician or any other status i deem ‘pumpndumpable’ ill flip a coin. Heads i ewwww her and summarily dismiss her, tails i dark game her and add one more notch to her body count.

    This rant isn’t about what your gut reaction is to hearing about me being with strippers. It’s the contention that there must be something ‘off’ with me for having 4 out of 5 of my last partners being strippers and the context involved. I’m sure most of the regular ladies of HUS didn’t need to hear this, but it had to be said at least once more… with feeling!

    Time to go out and get some fresh air and contemplate what to do with my life once the ink on my divorce papers dry. Need to escape this Joss Whedon story i’m living out in real life. Perhaps i’ll write a screenplay about my life. A counter to divorce-porn if you will, could call it beta-awakening flicks.

  • BroHamlet

    @Badger

    I can see you girls now, in some pillared aristocratic house, sipping tea in white gloves saying in hushed tones “I CAHN’T believe he’s caVORTing with that hussy!”

    LMAO! They’re entitled to their reaction and their viewpoint, sure, but really they just come off sounding REALLY sheltered. I think it was Olive that admitted to being naive about the whole thing. Given the leanings of some of the women at this blog, maybe we shouldn’t be surprised. No disrespect of course, ladies. I actually mean that as a compliment.

  • Charm

    Ah, nevermind. I see Badger has cleared it up. Glad to see the former exists. :)

  • Charm

    @Chris

    Good point. I don’t mind players. I don’t even mind “sluts”. As long as they don’t try to have their cake and eat it too. (meaning sleeping around casually only to want to benefit of a long term partner with a low partner count to ensure sexual fidelity.)

    Thats where I get annoyed.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Charm

    I’m not sure he did.

    Guys in the STEM field vary, but most are probably on the spectrum. That is, they probably are somewhere on the Autism scale. All of them. Sorry, but them’s the breaks. You cannot truly master any technical field without years of obsessive concentration. These are the sorts of guys Steve Jobs rode to fortune and fame.

    Most have some grasp of formal politeness. Good grooming is a marker for those guys. Put them in that setting and they’ll be fine.

    I had the additional problem where an adrenaline rush makes me tremble like a racehorse in the starting gate. It takes a great deal of concentration to damp that down. It’s hard to be social when you’re that distracted.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Guys in the STEM field vary, but most are probably on the spectrum. That is, they probably are somewhere on the Autism scale. All of them. Sorry, but them’s the breaks.

      What? No way! Google is snatching up the best and brightest from the top colleges, and the interviewing process is intense, requiring top social skills. Same with Facebook.

      I personally know a bunch of MIT grads who are not on the spectrum.

      What percentage of male college students are in STEM? (A third of my b-school class came from Engineering – and they couldn’t get in without social skills).

      What percentage of men are on the autism spectrum?

  • Emily

    @ Mike,

    I’m sorry if the “stripper debate” came off as a Mike-bashing session. I don’t think that was anybody’s intention (it certainly wasn’t mine!) I can see how it could look that way though.

  • Charm

    @Dinky

    Maybe Im looking for STEM lite. Lol. I agree there seems to be quite a bit of guy with autism in these majors, though Ive met quite a few engineers who were pretty…for lack of a better word, normal. Ive also met alot of guys in biology, chem, micro, medicine to be really down to earth, but their schedules alone don’t allow them much time pursue women.

  • BroHamlet

    @Charm

    Can I ask something though, why do STEM guy get passed up?

    I’m a STEM guy that doesn’t get passed up, but I’ll tell you why most of them DO get passed up until they learn to truly grow into their own skin:

    1) A lot of STEM guys really are boring off the job.
    My friends and I are out every weekend to go drinking in a mixed group of guys and girls. A lot of the other STEM dudes I know are homebodies that live in the suburbs. If your face isn’t out there, you lose by default, lol. You have to be on the field to have a shot at winning.

    2) A lot of STEM guys, though they might innovate on the job, are more or less just living the status quo in many other respects, and girls aren’t interested in that until it’s time to settle down and be “responsible” (yuck). I am VERY active in other things that interest me outside the job and always have interesting things to talk about that I’m passionate about (some I would do for a living if I could). If all you have to talk about is how you finished documenting X or Y design this week, girls will be falling asleep talking to you. Not well played. Do something cool- start a blog about something you like. Start producing music. Start a community around something you are passionate about. Throw regular house parties or wine tastings. DO SOMETHING to differentiate yourself from just another corporate dude with a button-down who goes out once a month. You actually have to be interesting- your job WILL NOT help you achieve that unless it pays you ridiculous money and puts you in the spotlight.

    3) A lot of STEM guys don’t play to their strengths.
    If you are an engineer, you make good money, and you are probably earning more every year. Know how to spend your money- dress well, check out nicer restaurants every once in a while, and don’t live in a sleepy suburb. Present yourself well and put yourself in the middle of the action. Many tech companies are in boring suburbs because the real estate is cheap. Buy (or rent) a smaller place in a more urban area. That way, being out and about doesn’t require a long drive.

    4) A lot of STEM guys are quiet.
    Quiet doesn’t get girls. A lot of STEM guys need to work on being comfortable around people. Trust me, this happens automatically if you aren’t going straight from work, to the gym, to your house, to your bed every night of the week.

    So, in a nutshell, for STEM guys, being interesting is more or less a choice. I’d say most of them are not making that choice. If they did, they’d see at least some improvement and more interest from girls.

  • Jim

    Charm said, “I hate b