The Eat Pray Love Divorce Trend

This is the first of a series of occasional articles about marriage today. It is intended as a primer for young women who hope to marry. 

“I don’t want to be married anymore.

 

In daylight hours, I refused that thought, but at night it would consume me. What a catastrophe. How could I be such a criminal jerk as to proceed this deep into a marriage, only to leave it? We’d only just bought this house a year ago. Hadn’t I wanted this nice house? Hadn’t I loved it? So why was I haunting its halls every night now, howling like Medea? Wasn’t I was proud of all we’d accumulated – the prestigious home in the Hudson Valley, the apartment in Manhattan, the eight phone lines, the friends and the  picnics and the parties, the weekends spent roaming the aisles of some box-shaped superstore of our choice, buying ever more appliances on credit? I had actively participated in every moment of the creation of this life – so why did I feel like none of it resembled me? Why did I feel so overwhelmed with duty, tired of being the primary breadwinner and the housekeeper and the social coordinator and the dog walker and the wife and the soon-to-be-mother, and – somewhere in my stolen moments – a writer?

 

I don’t want to be married anymore.

 

…I will not discuss here all the reasons why I did still want to be his wife, or all his wonderfulness, or why I loved him and why I had married him and why I was unable to imagine life without him. I won’t open any of that. Let it be sufficient to say that on this night, he was still my lighthouse and my albatross in equal measure. The only thinking more unthinkable than leaving was staying; the only thing mor impossible than staying was leaving. I didn’t want to destroy anything or anybody. I just wanted to slip quietly out the back door, without causing any fuss or consequences, and then not stop running until I reached Greenland.”

 

Elizabeth Gilbert, Eat Pray Love

 

So begins Gilbert’s blockbuster memoir, a chronicling of the “healing journey” she undertook after leaving her husband Michael Cooper, who has said he thought his marriage was rock-solid, the divorce unexpected and the result devastating. With a sweet book deal from Viking, Gilbert set out with several hundred thousand dollars to gaze at her navel in Italy, India and Bali.

In a recent post I referred to the trifecta of doom concerning the future of marriage – declining marriage rates, declining male college enrollments, and overly optimistic female beliefs about fertility. Much of this is beyond any one person’s control, but if you hope to marry you must understand the contemporary environment for marriage, which includes considerable disincentives.

While the average age at marriage has been increasing for both sexes, the National Marriage Project at the University of Virginia found evidence that men are more interested in delaying marriage than women are. From a study exploring men’s feelings about commitment:

The men in this study express a desire to marry and have children sometime in their lives, but they are in no hurry. They enjoy their single life and they experience few of the traditional pressures from church, employers or the society that once encouraged men to marry. Moreover, the sexual revolution and the trend toward cohabitation offer them some of the benefits of marriage without its obligations. If this trend continues, it will not be good news for the many young women who hope to marry and bear children before they begin to face problems associated with declining fertility.

The ten reasons why men won’t commit are:

1. They can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past.

2. They can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying.

3. They want to avoid divorce and its financial risks.

4. They want to wait until they are older to have children.

5. They fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises.

6. They are waiting for the perfect soulmate and she hasn’t yet appeared.

7. They face few social pressures to marry.

8. They are reluctant to marry a woman who already has children.

9. They want to own a house before they get a wife.

10. They want to enjoy single life as long as they can.

According to the study, “[Men] fear that an ex-wife will “take you for all you’ve got” and that “men have more to lose financially than women” from a divorce.

Like other young adults, these young men are highly critical of divorce. They think couples are too willing to call it quits without trying to work through difficulties in a marriage. As one observed:

“One fight, and it’s like ‘I’m out of here.”‘

Some attribute the readiness to divorce as part of a societal trend toward narcissism, consumerism, and “too many choices.”

“You used to fall in love with the girl in your high school English class. Now you have more choices and you get married and then three years later, a better one comes along,” commented one man.

Others believe that both men and women are more independent and need each other less:

“Now women are making as much as their husbands so they can say ‘see ya,’” one said.

Finally, these men cite the legacy of parental divorce as a factor con- tributing to a persistently high divorce rate: “We figure ‘hey my parents got divorced, so we can get divorced.’”  

Clearly, men’s fear of divorce is real and is reflected in the falling number of marriages. To understand why, it’s helpful to look briefly at the history of divorce, beginning in the mid-60s. From Brad Wilcox’s The Evolution of Divorce at the National Marriage Project at the University of Virginia:

The divorce revolution of the 1960s and ’70s was over-determined. The nearly universal introduction of no-fault divorce helped to open the floodgates, especially because these laws facilitated unilateral divorce and lent moral legitimacy to the dissolution of marriages. The sexual revolution, too, fueled the marital tumult of the times: Spouses found it easier in the Swinging Seventies to find extramarital partners, and came to have higher, and often unrealistic, expectations of their marital relationships. Increases in women’s employment as well as feminist consciousness-raising also did their part to drive up the divorce rate, as wives felt freer in the late ’60s and ’70s to leave marriages that were abusive or that they found unsatisfying.

Divorce rates doubled between the mid-1960s and the mid-1970s. In fact, divorce rates are lower today than they have been since 1970, but that’s on a smaller base of marriages.

In a study aptly named These Boots Are Made for Walking: Why Most Divorce Filers Are Women, Brinig and Allen (2000) stated that women file just over two-thirds of divorces. (They cite the anticipation of custody as the most statistically significant factor in women initiating divorce proceedings at any given point.)

Another study by Amato and Previti (2003) looked at People’s Reasons for Divorcing. It’s the only data I could find, which is not surprising, since no-fault divorce laws have been around since the 1970s and require no justification for filing. This study was done with 208 subjects (77M, 131F) over a 17 year period, 1980-1997. One limitation of the study is that they spoke with only one member of each divorced couple, so there is bound to be some personal “rewriting of history” that is embedded in the results. The table below shows how men and women reported the reason for their divorce. Please note that this data does not address who initiated the divorce.

 
 

Men % Cases

n=77

Women % Cases

n=131

Infidelity 15.6 25.2
Alcohol or drug use 5.2 13.7
Physical or mental abuse 0.0 9.2

Financial/Employment

problems

 

3.9 6.9
Physical or Mental Illness 1.3 3.1
Other/EPL*:    
Incompatible 19.5 19.1
Personal growth 3.8 1.5
Grew apart 9.1 9.9
Personality 10.4 8.4
Unhappy 2.6 3.1
Loss of love 6.5 3.1

Lack of communication

13.0

6.1

Immaturity

2.6

1.5

Interference from family

2.6

2.3

Failure to meet family obligations

1.3

4.6

Don’t know

9.1

0.0

Other  6.5 2.3
Total Other/EPL 87.0 61.9

*Note: 

1. Because some individuals provided more than one cause, the percentages for individuals sums to more than 100.

2. The selection of Other reasons as frivolous, or EPL, is mine and is entirely subjective. Obviously, legitimate divorces can occur within these categories, YMMV.

From the study:

Consistent with expectations, women in this study were more likely to report problematic behavior on the part of their former husbands (infidelity, substance use, mental and physical abuse), and men were more likely to report that they did not know what caused the divorce. These gender differences replicate findings from several prior studies (Bloom et al., 1985; Cleek & Pearson, 1985; Kitson,1992; Levinger, 1966).

Contrary to expectations, however, men were no more likely than women to refer to external causes, and men were more
likely than women to report problems with communication. The latter finding appears to clash with the assumption that women are more relationship centered than men (Thompson & Walker, 1991) and that wives are more sensitive than husbands to marital problems involving emotions and communication (Cleek & Pearson, 1985). Nevertheless, this result is consistent with a study showing that communication problems (such as avoiding problem-solving discussions) predict marital unhappiness more strongly among husbands than wives (Roberts, 2000).

Although it is possible that men are becoming more sensitive to relationship dynamics in marriage, we suspect that some men used general references to poor communication and other relationship problems to avoid admitting that their own misbehavior undermined the marriage.

I assume, though I have no data to support my suspicion, that women are also using references to male misbehavior to obscure their EPL motives for initiating divorce.

Another important variable is socioeconomic status. The National Marriage Project puts the divorce rate among college educated couples at only 17% during the first decade, half the rate of their less educated counterparts:

College-educated Americans have seen their divorce rates drop by about 30% since the early 1980s, whereas Americans without college degrees have seen their divorce rates increase by about 6%. Just under a quarter of college-educated couples who married in the early 1970s divorced in their first ten years of marriage, compared to 34% of their less-educated peers. Twenty years later, only 17% of college-educated couples who married in the early 1990s divorced in their first ten years of marriage; 36% of less-educated couples who married in the early 1990s, however, divorced sometime in their first decade of marriage.

This growing divorce divide means that college-educated married couples are now about half as likely to divorce as their less-educated peers. Well-educated spouses who come from intact families, who enjoy annual incomes over $60,000, and who conceive their first child in wedlock — as many college-educated couples do — have exceedingly low rates of divorce.

Back to the Amato study on socioeconomic status:

Several studies suggest that socioeconomic status is correlated with people’s reasons for divorce. Kitson (1992) found that high-SES individuals, following divorce, were more likely to complain about lack of communication, changes in interests or values, incompatibility, and their ex-spouses’ self- centeredness. In contrast, low-SES individuals were more likely to complain about physical abuse, going out with the boys/girls, neglect of household duties, gambling, criminal activities, financial problems, and employment problems. 

These results suggest that as SES increases, individuals are less likely to report instrumental reasons and more likely to report expressive and relationship-centered reasons.

It would appear, then, that the Eat Pray Love phenomenon is largely centered among the most educated and affluent Americans. Certainly Elizabeth Gilbert fits the bill. So do those who prioritize female concerns. Oprah Winfrey liked Eat Pray Love so much she devoted two segments to it, and has supported Gilbert with additional appearances since. Oprah has also supported frivolous divorce in other ways. Her website featured the article, She’s Happily Married, Dreaming of Divorce, which was linked by CNN.

Ex-blogger Novaseeker took her to task for championing a woman who decided to stay in her marriage while getting her own apartment at her husband’s expense:

 
What are the other compromises I’m questioning? I’m shy about telling you, because I’m afraid it sounds as if I’m looking a gift horse—my decent, basically good enough marriage—in the mouth. Maybe I am. But here goes: I want a physical space where I can see myself reflected without the influence (both aesthetically pleasing and overpowering) of my husband. I also want to create a distance between my husband and me specifically for the purpose of coming together with the intention of…being together.
No wonder men are wary of marriage. It’s often emotionally and financially ruinous, and it’s most often initiated by wives.
 
If there’s any data available on the prevalence of Eat Pray Love divorces, I haven’t found it, though the table above suggests it might easily be half or more. An article in the UK’s Telegraph last September indicates it’s increasingly common there. In Women and divorce: Goodbye darling, you’re just too dull…, Julia Llewellyn Smith observes:
 
Fifty years ago… divorce was taboo and few women had the guts, let alone the financial means, to brave the social stigma of walking out on a decent husband simply because she felt there must be “something more”. Until recently, with nearly half of all marriages ending in divorce, the most commonly cited reason was infidelity.

But times have changed. Last week, a survey of 101 family lawyers conducted by the consultancy firm Grant Thornton revealed that adultery was no longer the principal reason for break-ups. Instead, the most popular explanation was couples saying they were simply “no longer in love” and had “grown apart”.

That survey was done in the UK, and doesn’t necessarily reflect American divorce, but Smith believes that Eat Pray Love is at the root of it:

What does this say about our society? Is it a shocking indictment of our narcissism that we are ignoring “Until death us do part”? Or is it a triumph of feminism that women whose mothers would have put up and shut up in return for a roof over their heads have decided that they refuse to live out their years with a man whose idea of an enjoyable night is dinner on his lap in front of Top Gear?

Women initiate seven out of 10 divorces. Divorce is also soaring among the over-45s, with break-ups in that age bracket increasing by 30 per cent in a decade. The writer Fay Weldon recently said: “Women in their fifties instigate divorce because they are bored and want to be free and single again, not because they want the emotional and sexual excitement of another man.” They’re encouraged by a recent vogue of “finding-yourself” literature, headed by the international best-seller Eat, Pray, Love, which recounted author Elizabeth Gilbert’s decision to divorce her husband and embark on a round-the-world odyssey of – depending on your view – inspirational self-discovery or nauseating navel-gazing.

Some readers have suggested that in good conscience I should withdraw my support for marriage. I disagree, because I am a firm believer in the power of marriage. The National Marriage Project’s statement reflects my own support of the institution:

Marriage is a fundamental social institution. It is central to the nurture and raising of children. It is the “social glue” that reliably attaches fathers to children. It contributes to the physical, emotional and economic health of men, women and children, and thus to the nation as a whole. It is also one of the most highly prized of all human relationships and a central life goal of most Americans.

However, I do not pretend that all is well. In addition to the malignant Eat Pray Love trend, men fear the financial consequences of laws guiding custody, child support, alimony, and the division of marital property. There’s also the very real loss of economies of scale that occurs in every divorce, as one household splits into two.

Men will decide whether to marry based on their own personal assessment of the risks involved. Those risks are legal, financial, emotional and physical. A man contemplating marriage will bring his own tolerance for risk and uncertainty to bear on his personal risk/benefit analysis. 

As a woman, it  behooves you to be fully informed about about the risks men face, and the benefits you confer in your relationship. You will need to demonstrate that you are low risk, high value, and of sterling character. That means, among other things, willingness to take your wedding vows dead seriously, and to speak out against divorce as a means of personal growth and self-expression.

2 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • Joey

    Great stuff, Susan.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joey

      Wow, I do believe this is a first. I’m so happy to see you here, and I hope all is well xoxo

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Oh and Joey, I owe you a hat tip for “trifecta of doom.” One of the best phrases I’ve ever seen from another writer.

  • SayWhaat

    Shit storm in T-minus 10..9..

  • Charm

    Im not gonna lie, all this time I though Eat Pray Love was about a woman who just travels across Europe having a good time. Thats it. I had no idea she was married and selfishly dumped her husband to “find” herself.

    Oprah put this on her book list? I would say its shocking but I feel it might come from a bitter place of HER never having been married. I dont get why women would take advice from a woman who isnt even in their situation. But they worship her like a God.

    Elizabeth Gilbert was probably unhappy because she just went through the motions and did what society expected her to do. She had it “all” and yet wasn’t happy. Why? Because people have a hard time realizing that “all” doesn’t equal happy.

    I worked with a girl once, and in her home country when people go to file for divorce, they ask what the problem is and can and will tell you: “Go home and work it out with your husband/wife.” They wouldn’t give them the paper work. I thought it was hilarious. Maybe we need to get more of that attitude in the US.

    This post, however, makes me feel like Im never getting married. Its hard not to become jaded from reading this stuff Susan.

  • Jonny

    I have my revenge, or I think I do. I’m remarried from my first marriage/divorce. She is still single.

    Reasons for her leaving: 1. She was unhappy. 2. I was unhappy, but she made the relationship hell from all her demands. 3. She was barely at home. Often away from her projects and staying with her parents. 4. She pursued an additional degree that went nowhere. Tuition down the drain. 5. I don’t know. There problems were not unfixable, but she was unfixable. She didn’t want a solution. She wanted out. 6. No kids. No reason to stay really. And very little sex.

    I saw the movie “Eat Pray Love” with my new wife. She wanted to see it. It was very lame. I could see why she wanted the divorce. Her husband wanted to pursue another degree, but thus making her the breadwinner. That’s no way to have a marriage. Yet she isn’t the mother type.

    Lesson: A man should not marry if he or his wife both do not want children. It is advanced dating. It’s too easy to leave without children.

    Yet in “Eat Pray Love,” what’s the cultural significance of ordering spaghetti in Italian? I don’t see the benefit. Going to India is like a step backwards. Religious training in Bali was a waste for the woman. She was impatient and didn’t want to follow the rules. Only after a series of misadventures with her self created crisis’ did she have an epiphany.

    SHE WAS IN LOVE AGAIN. May this new man have his own epiphany.

  • http://tenfoured.blog.com HeligKo

    The last paragraph hit home. I thought I had chosen a woman of character who cherished marriage. She derided divorce, and actively worked to save marriages of friends. Some very successfully. I found out later that the whole time she was seeking the “courage” to leave our marriage. She was trying to force me into a position to leave her, so she didn’t have to bare the shame of leaving me. This went on for over 10 years of our 14 year marriage. Marriage is all that you say, and I believe that there are so few women deserving of the honor in modern western cultures that men should abstain until not only the laws change, but the atitudes of women do as well.

  • tvmunson

    I commend you on an excellent article. Your perspective is cogently presented and the sources you cite in support of it are diverse and articulate. Furthermore, your perspicacity in finding and employing them shows scholarship. You offer a provocative argument with such compelling momentum that by the time the reader reaches your conclusion it seems so inevitable it’s as if he’d already drawn it. I tip my hat as one professional advocate to another.

  • SayWhaat

    Going to India is like a step backwards. Religious training in Bali was a waste for the woman.

    Care to clarify, Jonny?

    Watch what you say.

  • tvmunson

    Ssuan
    I did not mean to imply that your writing was “professional advocacy’ i e sophistry. You care deeply. I meant its rendering was professional.

  • Chris_in_CA

    Excellent work Susan. A prime foundation for future discussions.

    These 3 cases for divorce strike me as particularly interesting:

    1. “Physical or mental abuse” – Men report 0%.
    2. “Lack of communication” – Men report 13%, women 6.1%.
    3. “Don’t know” – Men report 9.1%, women 0%.

    Were I to theorize about these stats, I would say…

    1. I have to presume this is due at least in part to men not wanting to appear weak by reporting abuse. (Or wanting to avoid being laughed at. Maybe both.)
    2. Aren’t women going on about communication? Regarded as the gender that loves/needs/wants to communicate? And yet we have men indicating LACK of communication fueled a divorce. Hmmm…
    3. Women clearly know when they intend to divorce. That’s quite telling.

    “No wonder men are wary of marriage. It’s often emotionally and financially ruinous, and it’s most often initiated by wives.”

    You could have stopped right there. Truer words…

    For the record, I agree with one point: Children are best raised in a stable two-parent household.

    However…

    “It is the “social glue” that reliably attaches fathers to children. It contributes to the physical, emotional and economic health of men, women and children, and thus to the nation as a whole.”

    I find these statements abhorrent. Go to any family court and watch a father fight for access to his children during divorce proceedings. If marriage was all that bound him to his children, then why do men fight to see them post-divorce? This statement is nauseatingly oversimplified, and relies on an image of men as something akin to a chimp with a head injury.

    (Mind you, I like chimps!)

    “As a woman, it behooves you to be fully informed about about the risks men face, and the benefits you confer in your relationship. You will need to demonstrate that you are low risk, high value, and of sterling character. That means, among other things, willingness to take your wedding vows dead seriously, and to speak out against divorce as a means of personal growth and self-expression.”

    Very good sentiment. And, from a social perspective, a strong base upon which to build relationships.

    However, as is my wont, I must point out that you’d need more than just this. You’d need to understand the legal risks men still face, and be willing to fight against them *yourselves*.

    As HeligKo has just indicated (my sympathies sir), the laws and the attitudes of women must change en masse.

  • JCclimber

    To all the young men I encounter who ask (most do) about my advice regarding marriage…I have only one answer.

    If both you and she are committed Christians (meaning pay 10-20% of your gross income to God, devote 24 hour period per week to sabbath observance, study and pray daily, etc), AND intend to start a family, then it is a good idea. And preferably not an American.

    If any of the above conditions don’t apply, I tell them I think they are effectively a foolish, moronic, pussy for considering it for more than 1 second with any woman. No matter how hot, sweet, or caring she may be. And then I explain why.

    Most were already leaning that way, they just needed someone with a wise reputation and a successful married life to give them the truth. Someone with credibility.

    Sorry Chickees, but the fruits of your feministic attitudes are now being harvested. Take a big bite. Sweet, isn’t it? Now get back to your important job, make some more powerpoint slides, and enjoy your retail therapy.

    What is sad is when I (more gently) point this out to my female friends who are still single, what kind of prospects THEY are facing in the marriage market. They logically accept the truth of my message, but cannot emotionally accept it. So,….

  • Jonny

    @SayWhaat

    Gilbert’s trip to India appears contrived. There’s nothing wrong with the country, but to try to derive understanding from another country while not understanding your own (the U.S.) is backwards.

    As Bali, their religion is patriarchal. For a woman to look for her religion there and not follow the rules seem very arrogant, which is my main point.

    As for “Watch what you say”, what are you going to do?

  • deti

    “As a woman, it behooves you to be fully informed about about the risks men face, and the benefits you confer in your relationship. You will need to demonstrate that you are low risk, high value, and of sterling character. That means, among other things, willingness to take your wedding vows dead seriously, and to speak out against divorce as a means of personal growth and self-expression.”

    I might respectfully add the following:

    1. You will need to show that you bring something of value to a possible marriage besides your physical attributes. In the unlikely event you are the primary breadwinner, expect it to continue indefinitely. If you are not, develop your domestic skills. Learn how to cook if you don’t know how. Yes, most of this work usually falls to the wife. That’s the way it is.

    2. You must show pleasantness, kindness and optimism to a potential husband, and sustain it as best you can.

    3. Be an open book about your attitudes toward marriage. Be honest with yourself and possible husbands about the core areas of compatibility: sex, religion, children, finances. If he asks, be ready with a complete, honest, well-considered response. A reform Jewish man is probably not the ideal match for a devout Catholic. A woman who wants children will be grindingly unhappy with a man who knows he never wants them. A spendthrift and a tightwad might have problems.

    4. Be flexible about your employment situation. If your husband is the primary breadwinner, his employment situation will probably be far less flexible than yours. You might have to adapt or change jobs. After you have children it might actually be more economically advantageous for you to be a SAHM than continue working. Or you might have to work after having children even if you don’t want to.

    5. You can live on far less than you think you can.

    6. You are not going to get everything you want in a husband.

    7. He is not going to be everything you want all the time.

    8. Do not confuse “wedding” with “marriage”.

    9. Do not marry him unless you are head over heels in love with him. If you marry someone you are NOT head over heels in love with, you will believe you have settled, and you will be correct.
    *(NOTE: “Settle” does not mean the same thing as “compromise” in this context. Settle means “meh” and you gave up without getting anything in return. Compromise means you and he both give a little and get a lot more so that the sum is exponentially greater than its two parts. Compromise, but DO NOT SETTLE. I would give the exact same advice to men looking to marry.)

    10. Sterling character: Low partner count. Feminine. Trustworthy. Loyal. Kind. Cheerful. Thrifty.

    11. If you fail to follow any of these suggestions, and your marriage is hard, or grinding, or you are not compatible, or you have problems, you may not get divorced unless one of the following happens:
    a. He cheats on you.
    b. He is physically abusing you.
    c. He has abandoned you.
    d. He’s become a hopeless, sick addict, he doesn’t want to get better, there’s no end in sight, and his sickness is completely destroying you and your children.

  • sonofagunforbeer

    A very interesting post. Thank you. Anecdotally, I think many men view a woman having parents who divorced as a warning sign. Would as many women seek divorce for EPL reasons if they knew it meant making their daughter less likely to ever marry?

  • PS

    Bravo Susan. A great reminder that the most important thing to screen for in a marriage partner is character. Though I can’t help but wonder, as an early 30′s never-married male, if even that is good enough to prevent an EPL divorce.
    With women being the more emotional gender and prone to acting on those emotions, it seems that both the man and the woman in a marriage are at the mercy of her emotions. Keeping the woman emotionally satisfied is then a sin quo non of sustaining a relationship.
    And if, like many men, EG’s husband was blindsided by her request for the original EPL divorce, what’s your prescription for a solution here?

    The only thing I can see is for the husband to man-up further and in addition to being alpha and otherwise on top of his game in all respects, to also be more emotionally in touch with his wife. And that hardly seem like a possible course in this day, age and SMP.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      With women being the more emotional gender and prone to acting on those emotions, it seems that both the man and the woman in a marriage are at the mercy of her emotions. Keeping the woman emotionally satisfied is then a sin quo non of sustaining a relationship.
      And if, like many men, EG’s husband was blindsided by her request for the original EPL divorce, what’s your prescription for a solution here?

      In EG’s case, she sounds like she was mentally distraught, sleeping on the bathroom floor many nights in a row and sobbing. Her husband must have known she was unhappy, but my guess is that he believed, based on their marital commitment, that they would weather the storm. She was too selfish for that – she wanted out, after apparently having pretended to like their life for some time. Her narcissism is off the charts, IMO.

      I’ll confess something here – I read this book in 2006 and while I didn’t empathize particularly with Gilbert, I didn’t judge her either – I didn’t recognize the insidious nature of her frivolous divorce, and that it would cast a long shadow like it did.

      By the way, Michael Cooper is, I believe, an esteemed law professor at Georgetown and enthusiastic human rights activist. He may have made less money than she did, but he was no loser. Happily, he is remarried and has a child. He had a book deal with Hyperion to tell his side of the story, but balked when they demanded that he include racy material about their sex life.

  • Anna

    Reasons why men won’t commit are:
    - They can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past.
    - They can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying.
    - They face few social pressures to marry.
    - They want to enjoy single life as long as they can.

    These reasons are mostly about the same thing to me: they don’t have to. What’s the point?
    Honestly, Susan, do you think it’s become too easy for young men to continue with casual sex and date around without it leading anywhere? I have often thought that promiscuous women ruin things for others, but I would never say it out loud as it is a forbidden thought these days, freedom of choice and all.

    I remember reading an interview with one of my favourite authors. He married and had children quite late. He’s an artistic type, known as a bit of a “man’s man”. He said something interesting: “a lot of the best things in an adult man’s life are things he’s been forced to”. I don’t think he meant forced as in violently led into or deceived, but simply having a woman pressuring him, and having to move out of his comfort zone.
    I think his main point was that if he as a young man had continued to follow his own desires 100%, he’d ended up miserable. You need some sort of lecturing, from parents, or the women you date.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Honestly, Susan, do you think it’s become too easy for young men to continue with casual sex and date around without it leading anywhere? I have often thought that promiscuous women ruin things for others, but I would never say it out loud as it is a forbidden thought these days, freedom of choice and all.

      Women have made it easy. As for your forbidden thought, I’ve expressed that sentiment many times here. Women have a vested interest in preventing other women from being promiscuous. At this point, slut shaming wouldn’t work, but that’s what kept women in check for hundreds of thousands of years.

  • Odds

    I’m in the “don’t advocate marriage in good conscience” camp. For the same reason that I wouldn’t want the president to have the power to order warrantless assassinations of American citizens without judicial oversight, no matter what a saint he is (gotta love some of that Hope and Change), I can’t advocate allowing any woman the power that divorce gives her, no matter what an angel she is. Some power should simply not exist. After all, I don’t think most folks get married thinking, “Well, it’s fifty-fifty,” or “Haha, in four years, his wealth is mine!” People change, and what would have been unthinkable five years ago can seem inevitable in the now. People, even women, marry in good faith – but there is nothing to hold them to that faith. Worse, there is the illusion of a promise, to keep the future hapless (most likely male) victim from being prepared.

    Speaking of change, re: the last paragraph, about what women should do to entice men into marriage. There’s an old saw, “Men marry women hoping they’ll never change, and they do; women marry men hoping they’ll change, and they don’t.”

    Here’s a starter (but by no means is this all a girl has to do): marry him for who he is, and expect it to stay the same, and love and respect that. Then do everything you can to stay the girl he fell in love with. Don’t turn into a housefrau, or his mother, or get fat, or start making demands you wouldn’t have made when dating. Don’t think that he’s going to magically start doing his laundry “your” way now that he’s married.

    Make that commitment. That’s the easy part. Now come the two hard parts: can you live up to that until you die? And can you convince him that you will, in the face of how many of your sisters are lying through their teeth?

    As a last note, a fun bit of schadenfreude for the college guys out there: if the subject ever comes up, try mentioning that approximately one-third of all girls with college degrees will simply be unable to marry a man with a degree in the next ten years. It may actually set enough of a fire under them to start them on the path of helping themselves and being better wife material; failing that, the look on their faces is priceless. If you can’t solve the problem, no reason not to enjoy it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Odds

      if the subject ever comes up, try mentioning that approximately one-third of all girls with college degrees will simply be unable to marry a man with a degree in the next ten years. It may actually set enough of a fire under them to start them on the path of helping themselves and being better wife material

      Good advice. I’m still reeling from that statistic, and I’ve posted about it. When I tell women about it face to face, they look truly panicked. As well they should.

  • Odds

    @ Sunofagunforbeer

    I’ll second that. Even if someone convinced me to get married at some point, under no circumstances would I consider any girl with frivolously divorced parents – and even non-frivolous divorce would warrant a lot of scrutiny. Also: no single mothers, divorced women, or any girl who I know for a fact has been with one of these super-alpha 100+ notch guys (I’m okay with her having a history, even into the low double-digits, but alpha-chasing is right out – and those guys are easy enough to spot).

    I think that narrows eligible females down to about 10% of the population, but meh.

  • Mike M.

    Magnificent, Susan.

    I’m not sure how many women realize just how infuriating that book is to men.

    Deti also raises some good points.

    Men are constantly being told to Man Up. It’s time someone told women to Grow Up.

  • Sassy6519

    Great post Susan. I hope that things remain peaceful around here, for the most part. We’ll see how that goes.

  • Mike C

    Solid research. Well written. Great job, Susan!

  • Passer_By

    @Anna
    “These reasons are mostly about the same thing to me: they don’t have to. What’s the point?”

    Because the vast majority of men ultimately want children and want daily involvment with their children, and the best way, by far, to do that is in a marriage. But with the punitive nature of divorce settlements for men (assuming the wife isn’t an equal bread winner), even the college educated and upper class men may have to rethink the notion of marriage. All of those other things you mentioned will make that “rethinking” a bit easier.

  • JQ

    As an engineer, one thing we talk about is life-cycle management–the process of shepherding something from the time it is dreamed up to the time it dies (maybe or maybe not when intended). Each phase (the longest and hardest arguably being the middle–maintenance) has its own quirks. What I find interesting about this article is how it might fit into understanding the life-cycle of a marriage, which might be summarized as:

    1) Meet other
    2) Fall in Love
    3) Plan and Execute Nuptials
    4) Maintain the marriage
    5) Terminate marriage either by death of one/both spouses or divorce
    6) Clean up the aftermath of marital termination

    There are a few hints about why men might not want to marry. Okay. Assuming they do, then they’re into step (4)–maintenance. That 60-80% of causes of divorce are listed for reasons that are EPL (with the appropriate caveats) suggest most divorces are due to failure to conduct proper marriage maintenance, into which the “Eat, Pray, Love” phenomenon fits.

    This to me begs the question of where in the marriage value-chain the focus really needs to be: selecting better mates more likely to not cheat, abuse, etc, or helping both partners understand what it takes in terms of processes to conduct marital maintenance.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JQ

      This to me begs the question of where in the marriage value-chain the focus really needs to be: selecting better mates more likely to not cheat, abuse, etc, or helping both partners understand what it takes in terms of processes to conduct marital maintenance.

      Great question. I think both are essential. I suspect that a lot of people marry without having done due diligence on their mates, or worse, having spotted and ignored multiple red flags. My SIL did that, because at 26 she worried she would never marry. The first time I met her husband (soon to be ex, for adultery) I knew he was bad news. She had to have known it too.

      But I also think the fairy tale ideas about marriage to a soulmate, where the sex is great, the money flows in, no one ever gets sick or stressed and the kids are above average is extremely destructive. I think women are more susceptible to this via popular culture, and their weakness for romance. It sets up a very difficult dynamic where men often sense they’re not measuring up, but can’t pinpoint why. Meanwhile, she’s got a head full of ideas about Mr. Big and gentle vampires and the latest rom com.

      I think parents need to take a more active role in raising daughters. They need to actively deprogram the unrealistic and narcissistic expectations that most teen girls develop by participating in our culture.

  • Anna

    @ Passer_By
    I assume this list is for American men? I’d be interested to see it for…you know, the rest of the world? Because divorce is particularly financially difficult in the US, more than many other countries. I wonder if European men worry about paying for their women in a marriage, even if they don’t end up with unfair settlements. Or if the list is pretty much the same minus the financial worries.

    But you think children is the main factor here? So a woman should not wait for a man to become a “one-woman man” but rather until he wants a family. Which could take some time…

  • Anna

    Susan, are you familiar with the Taxi theory?
    I know this is from SATC, but it’s actually one of the few things mentioned there I think have some substance.

    It basically means that men operate like taxis, when they are ready to settle down, the light goes on on top and the first reasonably attractive woman taking the cab, gets the ride (and the man). But they can drive around with their lights off for years and years and not be available, and if they’re just not there, it doesn’t matter how amazing you are. On the opposite of women, who’s been lit pretty much since birth.
    It can sound a bit extreme, but it basically means that with men and marriage, timing is a HUGE part of it.
    I’m sure this has been debated before I knew of HUS though…but do you agree?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anna

      Re the taxi theory, I’ll share with you what I’ve learned from male readers. When they don’t want a relationship, they don’t want it, and they generally don’t change their minds because someone great comes along. They have all the time in the world, and they know the sea is full of fish. Guys who get a lot of girls delay monogamy, as shown in the list in the post. Lots of beta guys see a sharp rise in their SMV during their 20s, so they may prefer to wait until they’ve got some career success under their belts and have more cards to play.

      I don’t think guys go for the first attractive woman once the timing is right. They have every reason in this SMP to take their time and shop around a bit. Especially with the risks of marriage, few men will be eager to jump at the first attractive woman they meet. On the other hand, once they decide they’re ready, some woman might get lucky real fast. There is an element of timing and luck. Right place, right time.

  • Jim

    Excellent article Susan. You are a voice of sanity. Sadly, though what the statistics describe above a part of a recipe for civilizational collapse. Europe has been playing around with types of anti-marriage/anti-male laws and institutions for decades. The result of which is countries like Italy with fertility rates at 1.3 children per woman, well below replacement rates of around 2.0. Italy is a goner economically and socially, so too Greece, and other European nations. The US isn’t too far behind. I fear it may be too late. Hello Dark Ages 2.0.

    Just one more bit of advice gentlemen on a rare but real risk. If you have children with your wife, a paternity test immediately after birth is mandatory else you face these real financial, emotional, and legal risks;

    “Sixteen months after his divorce, Richard Parker made a devastating discovery. A DNA test revealed that his 3-year-old son had been fathered by someone else.

    Mr. Parker immediately filed a lawsuit claiming fraud by his apparently unfaithful ex-wife. He took his case all the way to the Florida Supreme Court.

    Last week, the Florida justices ruled 7-0 against him. They said that Parker must continue to pay $1,200 a month in child support because he had missed the one-year post divorce deadline for filing his lawsuit. His court-ordered payments would total more than $200,000 over 15 years to support another man’s child.

    “We find that the balance of policy considerations favors protecting the best interests of the child over protecting the interests of one parent defrauded by the other parent in the midst of a divorce proceeding,” writes Justice Kenneth Bell for the court.

    “We recognize that the former husband in this case may feel victimized,” he writes. He then quotes a scholar to explain the ruling: “While some individuals are innocent victims of deceptive partners, adults are aware of the high incidence of infidelity and only they, not the children, are able to act to ensure that the biological ties they may deem essential are present.”

    In effect, the high court is saying it’s partly Parker’s fault for trusting his wife…”

    Link: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0209/p01s01-usju.html

    Until anti-male/husband/father laws like this are removed, I see less and and less incentive to marry.

  • sweetsue

    What is that something more that women are looking for? I just do not get it. If you know yourself before you get married; and are a healthy functional person then what is there to look for. Most people are accustomed to being responsible for themselves and getting their needs met and working with others to share and compromise – as well as taking time for their own interests. In short a fully developed person with a life and mind of their own so what changes after marriage?

    This makes it sounds like people marry and suddenly like in a bad sci-fi movie they have their personalities, minds wiped – and you are someone different? I mean are people pretending to be something they are not until they marry then suddenly the masks come off and reality hits.

    Well this explains why I am single – this is just too crazy.

  • Passer_By

    @Anna

    Re your taxi theory – I think one of the observations in modern urban america is that the women don’t have their light on until late 20s or early 30s (or, more accurately, it’s only very dimly lit until then and then it suddenly grows much brighter).

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Great article.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    It basically means that men operate like taxis, when they are ready to settle down, the light goes on on top and the first reasonably attractive woman taking the cab, gets the ride (and the man). But they can drive around with their lights off for years and years and not be available, and if they’re just not there, it doesn’t matter how amazing you are. On the opposite of women, who’s been lit pretty much since birth.

    Here’s the part that trips women up: “it doesn’t matter how amazing you are.”

    Sure it does. It’s just that most women aren’t as amazing as they think they are.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan:

    Great article. Plenty of background and the right tone.

    @Anna

    I think his main point was that if he as a young man had continued to follow his own desires 100%, he’d ended up miserable. You need some sort of lecturing, from parents, or the women you date.

    I think you’re assigning your own meaning to his quote. Truth is that most women will try to pressure a long term boyfriend into marriage. Whether that marriage turns into the “best thing in his life” is definitely not a given. That’s a big reason why we are having this discussion at all. For that author, being “dragged to marital bliss” worked out for him. For many guys it’s obviously not working out to be so pleasant.

  • Emily

    Anna,

    Yeah, SATC is stupid, but that “Taxi theory” actually makes a lot of sense. A lot of people recommend seeking guys in their mid/late 20′s, and I imagine that it’s because of similar logic.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    Honestly, Susan, do you think it’s become too easy for young men to continue with casual sex and date around without it leading anywhere?

    It’s become too easy for the young men that women find attractive to continue with casual sex without it leading anywhere. There are guys who aren’t getting casual sex who’d be more than willing to commit. But a lot of women don’t want them.

    That’s why men need to get game.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s become too easy for the young men that women find attractive to continue with casual sex without it leading anywhere. There are guys who aren’t getting casual sex who’d be more than willing to commit. But a lot of women don’t want them.

      That’s why men need to get game.

      +1

  • Emily

    And I’m *so* glad that Susan banned Doug before posting this. If she hadn’t, I’m sure this thread would have been an absolute gong show.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    The other side of the coin, the negative implications our editor describes, were portrayed a 1/3 of a century in “Kramer v Kramer”. It opens with Dustin Hoffman drinking after work in the office with his boss, an obvious ritual of manly bonhomie played many tines before. He arrives home, late, to find Meryl Streep waiting for him , keys in her hand. she explains she is leaving him and her son, she doesn’t know where or for how long, she’ll let him know blah blah-Dustin stands bewildered as she’s out the door in almost the same time it takes you to read this.

    It’s all on him, and he’s overwhelmed. I forget how he explains this to his son. His new emphasis on home life costs him his job (there’s an implication he still did his work ok, but not palling around with his boss is the real reason). His boss fires right before an important hearing; without a job, he’ll lose his son and the boss knows it. Dustin’s 3 last words to him -”shame in you”-are some of the best he’s ever delivered.

    But he gets a job, selling his soul to a firm at their Christmas party. He’s so ecstatic he kisses a total stranger. And he and his son get ti figured out; a great scene shows them each reading the back of a cereal box, Dustin’s over-imagined attempts at cooking french toast for breakfast giving way to a realistic couple of bachelors existence.He starts a romance; a very funny scene has his girlfriend walking naked to the bathroom only to be confronted by the 7 year old boy who asks her”do you like fried chicken?” Returning to bed she tells Dustin “I just met your son.”

    But Meryl returns from “finding herself”, probably having found herself being gang banged by the Bay Area chapter of the Hell’s Angel’s. A momentous trial scene; Howard Duff, playing Dustin’s attorney(Dustin also has to pay for Meryl’s), tears into Meryl and her facile decision to leave so cavalierly. Duff bores in on her, ruthlessly cross-examining her life, her decisions; at one point Duff asks her bluntly if she was an unfit to be mother: Hoffman, with tears in his eyes, shakes his head “No”.

    He loses. The “child of tender years” doctrine trumps all; as Duff puts it “the court went with motherhood all the way.” Now he’ll lose his son, and more or less what’s left of his life.

    But Meryl has a change of heart. She’s seen the change in him, and decides to leave their son with him and return to wherever it was she went (probably in time for the Sturgis Rally, contemptible little whore). It works out on the screen.In real life-you need to ask?

    Kramer shows everything Susan discusses in terms of loss; boy loses mom; Dustin out major $; gratuitous destruction premised upon “finding oneself” (somehow this always involves newer vehicles, often motorcycles, and fucking younger people).

    I used to ask myself if we’ve kicked the can down the road any further since Kramer. “Tender years” doctrine has been abolished here, dunno’ about anywhere else. I think the laws as written are more favorable. but laws only go so far, do so much. The real destruction caused in Kramer, and what Susan describes (that and the “EPL” syndrome) is done through decisions reflecting the narcissistic, consumerist culture we inhabit. That culture has less and less competition everyday. What a world (WWW “Oz”).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      Kramer vs. Kramer is a favorite of mine. Best Picture in 1979. I hadn’t even thought of it, but you’re right – it’s the perfect illustration of frivolous divorce.

      This came straight from feminism, make no mistake.

  • Charm

    @Jim

    You think every American man should ask for a paternity test for his child when its born? Hm…on one hand, its safe (obviously) but on the other it shows lack of trust. Where does one draw the line?

  • Charm

    I hit submit too soon.

    I wanted to add:

    I’d resent that if my husband did it.

  • WarmWoman

    @Deti: ” If you fail to follow any of these suggestions, and your marriage is hard, or grinding, or you are not compatible, or you have problems, you may not get divorced unless one of the following happens:”

    I would like to add to your list of acceptable reasons to divorce:

    6) If he’s abusing the children. If a woman stays with a man that abuses the children, the negative consequences would be far too damaging than getting a divorce. A good mother will not allow anyone that hurts her children to be in their presence.

    I noticed you stated physical abuse, but I think any type of abuse that can’t be eradicated (sexual, verbal, emotional, financial) is grounds to break a marriage.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yea, I couldn’t see asking for a paternity test. Unless I had a reason.

    The way around that, of course, is just to mandate paternity tests in order to have the father’s name included on the birth certificate.

  • Charm

    @Jesus

    Could you imagine how backed up the system would be if everyone got paternity tests for their name on birth certificates? Thats not realistic at all.

  • Passer_By

    @warmwoman

    “, but I think any type of abuse that can’t be eradicated (sexual, verbal, emotional, financial) is grounds to break a marriage”

    The problem is that those terms are pretty nebulous, and people (and, in my experience, women in particular) have a tendancy to view justice as that result which maximizes their interests. So, for example, even though women often constantly berate their men, the one time he shouts back and intimidates her becomes verbal abuse. Emotional abuse? WTF is that? It’s whatever you want to define it to be. Financial abuse? Doesn’t let her buy whatever she wants? Buys stuff for himself, thereby being “selfish”, even though most disposable income is probably spent on her? Not to turn this into an MRA gripe fest, but many women will find “abuse” in whatever they deem unfair or displeasing to them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      The problem is that those terms are pretty nebulous, and people (and, in my experience, women in particular) have a tendancy to view justice as that result which maximizes their interests. So, for example, even though women often constantly berate their men, the one time he shouts back and intimidates her becomes verbal abuse. Emotional abuse? WTF is that?

      FYI, I plan to do a post on the Violence Against Women Act, and how easy it is for women to get men thrown in jail with zero proof.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Charm,

    Idk. I don’t even know what system is used to test paternity. Do you?

  • Passer_By

    @charm

    “Could you imagine how backed up the system would be if everyone got paternity tests for their name on birth certificates? Thats not realistic at all.”

    If done as a matter of course at the hospital, it would start to be pretty efficent. Their are plenty of companies that would do it for about a 100 bucks in that context. As it is now, you can buy a kit at the drug store for 30 bucks, and then mail it in and get results (for an addition 150 or so) online. So, if you had the power of a large contractor like the state or an insurance company, the rate would come way down.

    As an aside, that mail in option would be fine for most guys, but feminists are working to make that illegal.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Thanks, Passerby, for passing by at the right time. Saved me a google search.

  • Bully

    Charm: When a man is about to make a financial commitment for EIGHTEEN YEARS, what exactly is the problem with a little verification? Do you think the seller of a home resents that the buyer wants to carefully inspect the goods before agreeing to purchase it? I can appreciate that trust is important in a relationship, but these are not exactly small stakes; and please keep in mind that you are not the one that would be suffering in this instance if this bond of trust was broken.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      We discussed mandatory paternity in a recent thread, and it’s a pretty complicated issue. For one thing, it puts the government in your bedroom. However, I approve of the idea in theory. Yes, women will feel offended by it at first, but if it becomes customary, not something a suspicious husband requests, that will take the sting out of it. And I think it would eventually lead to fewer cuckold births.

  • Odds

    @ Charm

    If it helps, think of it this way: technology has finally given men all the same amount of certainty in their offspring that women have taken for granted since time began. It’s a gift to him and his subconscious, not an affront to you.

  • WarmWoman

    @Passerby

    Absolutely. Women can be some of the most vicious emotional/mental abusers as well. I didn’t mean to imply that I was referring to men only. If a couple can admit their faults and work on those problems, then it’s not necessary to break things up over verbally aggressive arguments or financial issues. I think the key to a sucessful marriage is when both partners are willing to grow and nurture the relationship. You can disagree with each other, but still respect each others’ differences.

    I’ve seen in couples counseling where one partner is desperate to work on the marriage, and the other partner could care less. Those types of situations fail, and they end up divorcing or staying miserable.

  • sweetsue

    “Men marry women hoping they’ll never change, and they do; women marry men hoping they’ll change, and they don’t.”

    Single and reluctant to marry for fear that the person I marry will change for the negative from the person they are or get bored with me remaining true to my core self even though my tastes may change and interests shift. I mean I expect peoples taste to change and for them to grow but not for their core personality – character to change; life, situations, circumstance, emotions and situations ebb and flow like the tide but character remains constant like the ocean. The ocean is still the ocean even with the shifting waters.

    People are like houses if they do not have the characteristics that you love and want from the start keep looking do not even attempt to “change” the core person, i.e. you can adapt the color of the drapes or the carpet but if you have to remake it to be happy i.e. convert a rancher to the colonial you have your heart set; keep looking or prepare for heartache.

    I have to wonder if as the popular notion goes I have to change a man why would I want to marry him? Character content versus surface characteristics – substance over surface style and there will be nothing to change.

    Sad part is so many men have been burned they are rightfully gun shy; A woman who takes folks as she finds them and accepts their humanity and takes responsibility for managing her emotions and life i.e. she is a grown up do not stand a chance. Discouraging.

    Excellent post Susan

  • Charm

    I searched a bit online and it seems they can be court ordered or done from home or sent in to labs which takes a few weeks to get back. Ive thought about your suggestion and I wonder if there is a more fast track way to test partial DNA at the hospital at the time of birth, you know along with all the other blood tests they run. If it was possible and they mandated that I don’t think anything would be wrong with that at all.

    Kind of like a built in shit test for men. If shes sweatin’ when that baby is born you might one to reconsider signing the birth certificate.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    #30
    I’m glad doug ism’t here too; he’d “site” Kramer v Kramer as some of his “primary legal research”; at least he’d get part of the title right. BTW nothing prevents Streep from coming back and doing it all again except her word and maybe 45 bikers.

  • Charm

    @Passer_By

    Seems like we were on the same page. Though you got there before me. LOL

    @Bully & Odds

    I think you’re trying to rationalize feelings. Do I know that men are taking a HUGE risk? Yep. If I was a man would I probably consider it especially in todays world? Absolutely.

    I know this all. Its a reasonable argument. It would appeal greatly to the logical part of my brain. But still…there is small place that would harbor resentment towards him. I wouldn’t appreciate being put on trial like that.

    And I feel like this cant be compared to a house. Personal feelings are involved.

  • WarmWoman

    I can also empathize with how the divorce court is a nasty world to men. It breaks my heart to see moms coach the kids to hate the father and see him as a bad man. They take the case to court to revoke visitation rights. Don’t they realize that they’re putting down a part of the child? Parent bashing doesn’t do anyone good.

  • Kathy

    “Because the vast majority of men ultimately want children and want daily involvment with their children, and the best way, by far, to do that is in a marriage.”

    Exactly. This is what many MRA sites tend to ignore.

    Easy for many of them to say “Go your own way and don’t marry”

    Some of these men themselves are happily married with children (hence they have not taken their own advice)

    Whilst others are understandably bitter having been dragged through the courts by some unscrupulous females who have taken them to the cleaners.

    Many men DO want to marry and have kids.

    Better to accept this fact and arm them with information and provide help and guidance.. For example the qualities to look for in a prospective partner.

    Certainly a damn site more helpful than posting flyers in latrines .. (rolls eyes) warning men of marriage.

    Most men, as do women, have a biological imperative to reproduce. It is as God and nature intended it to be.

    Very well researched, thoughtful, even handed and helpful (especially to men) post Susan.

    You are a realist as well as an advocate for good marriages.

    “Some readers have suggested that in good conscience I should withdraw my support for marriage. I disagree, because I am a firm believer in the power of marriage”

    As am I. There are many couples who have long and enduring marriages.

    Providing the neccesary tools to help young men discern what will be in their best interests and to make better choices is the way to go.

  • deti

    Warm woman:

    “Abuse” is too vague to serve as a ground for divorce. Basically “abuse” currently means “anything he does or says that I don’t like at this moment”.

    Sexual abuse fits under physical abuse. Agree on child abuse.

    My problem with the word “abuse” is that it’s too much of a weasel word now.

  • Charm

    @WarmWoman

    “Parent bashing doesn’t do anyone good.”

    You’re wrong. Im pretty sure the woman in this instance is damn satisfied with herself. She probably got the house, a car, the kids, alimony and child support for the rest of her life or until she remarrys later. Sure she destroyed the life of her ex-husband, and her children, but in mind its just a means to an end.

    Thats the fucked up part.

  • Charm

    I meant to say: but in her mind its just a means to an end.

  • Babydoll

    I had never considered Elizabeth Gilbert to be selfish before. I suppose mainly because there were no children involved. Is it better to stay in a marriage when you no longer your partner, or is it more noble to leave so they can find someone who does love them? I have often thought my mother should have left my father instead of tolerating his affairs but then infidelity doesn’t fall in the realm of EPL does it? I would hate to be on the receiving end of an EPL divorce though – but can it really be that her ex husband was so clueless to not realise she was unhappy?

  • WarmWoman

    Deti:

    Yes, twisting the word “abuse” for one’s own personal gain and manipulation isn’t right. Maybe a better term is an “unhealthy or toxic relationship that can’t be saved.”

  • Charm

    @Babydoll

    “but can it really be that her ex husband was so clueless to not realise she was unhappy?”

    I feel like the blame is going completely on him. Should he have realized it? Yes, and no. To me thats irrelevant. I find Im more offended with the way she went about it. Leave him. Travel the world. Write a book about it. Nah, thats not humiliating in the least. I hate her lack of shame. That bitch.

  • Jim

    @Charm,

    hey, hey, hey…look, I didn’t create this anti-male/marriage financial and environment, I’m just a realist about it. Are there some really great women out there who would make great wives and mothers? Sure. I’d love to meet them. However, there are also some awful women out there as well. I’ve actually met them and they are the reason why I’m as wary as I am.

  • Babydoll

    “Lesson: A man should not marry if he or his wife both do not want children. It is advanced dating. It’s too easy to leave without children.”

    +1

    This is usually one of the first things I discuss with a man I’m dating. I have yet to be struck by the desire to have children and everyone I’ve dated has said they would like them, but later. So makes sense that I’ve never been married. I would only have children if I was married though. Just can’t imagine not being married to the father of my children.

  • Passer_By

    Although I find Gilbert (or her character) to be narcissistic (and indulging in behavior that would be shamed in men), her divorce is not a very good example of the real problem. If we can take her at word, she didn’t commit divorce theft. And she certainly didn’t take any children from her husband, etc.

    But part of the problem is that her story seems to be used as inspiration for other women to do those very things. Also, as I mentioned, what rankles a lot of men isn’t that she did what she did, but that it is so celebrated in the media, whereas comparable male behavior is shamed.

    I also wonder if part of what made her “inexplicably feel trapped and want out” was that she made more money than her husband, thereby causing her to subconsciously lose all attraction and respect for him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      But part of the problem is that her story seems to be used as inspiration for other women to do those very things. Also, as I mentioned, what rankles a lot of men isn’t that she did what she did, but that it is so celebrated in the media, whereas comparable male behavior is shamed.

      Exactly! I feel like women embracing her is almost worse than her selfishness. Oprah has endorsed this kind of soul searching, without regard for the feelings of her husband – he is considered collateral damage.

      I believe her recent book about her second marriage bombed. In an interview she gave regarding the prenup she insisted on, she said, “It makes sense to have an exit strategy.” I give the marriage 5 years tops.

  • WarmWoman

    @Charm

    Karma will hopefully catch up to her when the kids grow older and find find out that mom lied. These women made the choice to procreate with these men, so why take your kids away from something that was a result of your decision making?

  • Charm

    @Jim

    I didn’t create it either. Some over privileged bitch with no real problems in the world did. A bunch of other privileged bitches joined in,Complained, took over, and shit on a system that worked pretty well. Id really rather not pay for it.

  • Charm

    I swore in a comment. If thats againist the rules, my bad. It wont happen again.

  • Charm

    @Jim

    I sent you another comment but its stuck in moderation, so Ill clean up the language and hope this one makes it through.

    I didn’t create it either. Some over privileged woman with no real problems in the world. A bunch of other over privileged women joined in, complained, took over, and screwed up a system that worked pretty well. Id rather not pay for it. I feel like people want a one size fits all approach. I dont think thats possible.

  • Babydoll

    @Anna

    ” I have often thought that promiscuous women ruin things for others, but I would never say it out loud as it is a forbidden thought these days, freedom of choice and all.”

    I say it all the time to my friends, including the promiscuous ones. They all agree. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? Women are the gatekeepers to sex, we have this power yet so many throw it away for next to nothing. I find this very frustrating.

  • Charm

    @WarmWoman

    I absolutely agree. I don’t get it. I think thats where the real cruelty comes in. They take the kids. They already wanted their freedom, and they got it. They already wanted to live on someone elses dime, fine you got it. But taking the kids away is salt in the wound. These women lose nothing by allowing a man to see his kids. It shows contempt. When a man does nothing to deserve that contempt, it makes me wonder about this womans character and the women who champion them on.

    My karma get the ALL. Really really good.

  • WarmWoman

    Babydoll-I concur. IMHO, I think waiting to have sex will lead to a higher chance of securing a lasting commitment and emotional intimacy.

    But, my promiscuous friend had a hard time understanding the “Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?’ concept. She wanted others to jump on the bandwagon with her when she was having sex too soon and with various people in just a month.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’ve never read the book (and I have no intention, thank you), but what strikes me about the excerpt Sue cited is when Gilbert says of her husband, “he was still my lighthouse and my albatross in equal measure.”

    It’s a nice line (though personally I would’ve replaced lighthouse with anchor), but it says an awful lot about her that’s not so nice. Mainly, it suggests a recognition that she’s a flighty little bitch who married a man for stability, and then, since the stability no longer suits her, cut him loose.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s a nice line (though personally I would’ve replaced lighthouse with anchor), but it says an awful lot about her that’s not so nice. Mainly, it suggests a recognition that she’s a flighty little bitch who married a man for stability, and then, since the stability no longer suits her, cut him loose.

      Yes, that line is very damning. (is that a word?)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    *suited. I hate when I fuck up.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      *suited. I hate when I fuck up.

      Well, it’s been a really long time since you showed up as Anonymous :)

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,

    It’s a nice line (though personally I would’ve replaced lighthouse with anchor)

    Lol you’re such a writer. :-P

    Susan,
    Thanks for bringing a new perspective to the divorce issue, one that isn’t about what should happen after the divorce, but about what should happen so the divorce doesn’t occur in the first place. After that custody law debate, I can’t promise I’ll be frequenting this thread much unless it goes OT, but it’s a good post!

  • mizcat106

    @Jim

    Don’t know if anyone pointed this out, but, did you know that in some places parents must pay child support regardless of whether they are the biological parent? I know that is the case in Canada. Your spouse cheating is irrelevant if you acted as the parent for at least 1 year. Which means that you are also liable for child support to step children after divorce, or children of common law relationships. I have heard of parents who are liable for child support even though the biological parents is known.

    Check out page 19 of this: http://lss.bc.ca/assets/pubs/livingTogetherLivingApart.pdf

    Its says :
    “The terms step-parent and legal parent mean the same
    thing. You become a step-parent if you and the biological
    parent of the child:
    • are or were married, or
    • lived in a common-law relationship for at least
    two years,
    and
    • you have contributed to the support and
    maintenance of your spouse’s or partner’s child
    for at least one year.”

    Fact is, you are that child’s “parent” and can’t just abandon them. I mean, its not the kids fault the mom was a cheater…. Plus any man that won’t financially support a child after having an relationship with a child, based on the fact they aren’t biologically related, seems really dirtbag in my opinion – no offense. Sounds more like some parent using their kid to get back at their ex for cheating.

    On a personal note, my dad tried to get back at my mom in a similar way. He stopped paying child support for my sister, although not based on infidelity. And although it did “punish” my mom for divorcing him I can tell you 100% it negatively affected me and my sister way more. No child deserves to be some pawn in their parents quest for revenge. There is damage done to our relationship because of his spitefulness that will never be repaired. Why put vindictiveness before your children, biological or not….

  • Charm

    May karma get them.*

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Fact is, you are that child’s “parent” and can’t just abandon them. I mean, its not the kids fault the mom was a cheater…. Plus any man that won’t financially support a child after having an relationship with a child, based on the fact they aren’t biologically related, seems really dirtbag in my opinion – no offense.

    I agree. I can’t imagine dropping out on a child with whom I formed that kind of bond. And yet… conceivably, the mother in that situation would know who the biological father was (unless she was really that big of a slut). Why not get the support from him, while still allowing the “dad” visitation?

  • Sox

    What is that something more that women are looking for? I just do not get it. If you know yourself before you get married; and are a healthy functional person then what is there to look for. Most people are accustomed to being responsible for themselves and getting their needs met and working with others to share and compromise – as well as taking time for their own interests. In short a fully developed person with a life and mind of their own so what changes after marriage?

    It’s not only women – it’s really just people nowadays. Look at all the male-written travel-memoirs from guys previously stuck in cubicle farms. Existentialist funks fueled by delusions of grandeur, unfulfilled expectations, rampant narcissism, and having life too fucking easy. I guess women are even more apt to fall into this because they’ve collectively got a bigger collective ego than men do today.

    Besides, when guys feel that way they don’t usually blame their spouse. Some guys I know fixed this by traveling. Others joined the military. Others never figure it out, or figure it out much later than everyone else.

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    Jonny,
    Lesson: A man should not marry if he or his wife both do not want children. It is advanced dating. It’s too easy to leave without children.

    Hold on a minute there. Marriage isn’t about kids. If two people who have no desire to have kids are both happy, in a good place mentally/emotionally/etc., in love, compatible, etc., then I don’t see a reason why they shouldn’t marry.

    But I do understand that there’s more of a risk of a divorce when there’s not the added complication of kids.

    I have an aunt and uncle who are happily married (been married for years) who don’t have kids or want any. But….I have another aunt and uncle who divorced years ago (don’t know how long they were married). They didn’t have any kids either.

  • Sox

    I guess women are even more apt to fall into this because they’ve collectively got a bigger collective ego than men do today.

    What a terrible sentence. I miss having an edit feature!

  • Jesus Mahoney

    What a terrible sentence. I miss having an edit feature!

    Word

  • Babydoll

    @Charm #58

    I see your point. That wasn’t a very nice thing to do. I would hope such conduct is rare.

  • Rum

    Once, long ago, there was this thing called a “dowery”. It was the sum of money that the brides family pre-paid to the grooms family to make a marriage actually happen. No cash/gold/land transfer to the husband to be; no wedding.
    Once, long ago.

  • deti

    After this I won’t derail this thread anymore with all the possible permutations of “abuse”.

    The only divorce grounds I can think of which fall under abuse are:

    1. He’s beating you or the kids. “Beating” means physical assault and battery. Spanking is not “beating”.
    2. He has raped you. That means actual penetration or sexual contact which is CLEARLY against your will meaning you have told him to stop and he has not.

    Loud disagreement in which he raises his voice to you is NOT abuse.
    Verbal fighting is NOT abuse.
    You having sex with him, giving every indication of nonverbal consent, and then changing your mind afterwards and deciding you really didn’t want to have sex with him is NOT rape and is NOT sexual abuse.
    Your husband running game on you is NOT abuse.
    Telling you that you cannot buy that thing you want because you cannot afford it is NOT abuse.
    Putting you on a budget and insisting you stick to it is NOT abuse.
    Asking you what you spent that money on is NOT abuse.
    Asking you to explain a checkbook entry is NOT abuse.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      I agree with all of your terms of what does not constitute abuse.

  • Lokland

    @ Charm

    I skipped ahead after comment 50 or so but yes paternity tests can be fast-tracked.
    In Ontario (Canada) we screen for 36(or 38?) genetic diseases at birth. Some of these involve the same technique used to determine paternity.

    The result is sitting infront of someone in a lab. If its non-paternity the customary response is to ignore it. And when its non-paternity its VERY obvious.
    All that would be required is to add an extra tick box saying “True Paternity” or something of the like.

    Note: The tests required would involve the need to also test the father but some do both parents ahead of time to screen for complications.
    Its all at the gentic level.

    @ Susan

    Great article.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Then it’s a laugh as well as a hint to her character that she referred to herself as the “primary breadwinner.”

  • Babydoll

    @WarmWoman #69

    Yes I have had a similar experience. I dropped her due to lack of shared values. I heard through a mutual friend that she is now delaying sex i.e. not sleeping with them the same night she meets them. Turns out she is now looking for a relationship. I feel loath to congratulate her though – somehow the thought of a man now settling down with her turns my stomach.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    approximately one-third of all girls with college degrees will simply be unable to marry a man with a degree in the next ten years.

    Unless, of course, enough of the 2/3′s that DO find a degree-bearing husband get divorced and allow the remaining third a shot at happiness.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      Unless, of course, enough of the 2/3′s that DO find a degree-bearing husband get divorced and allow the remaining third a shot at happiness.

      And of course, women can look to older men. It’s going to be a Ponzi scheme of sorts, and eventually it will run dry, but we won’t see the effects for a while.

  • WarmWoman

    Babydoll-

    Good for you. Having such friends can be dangerous, because they will impose their values on you. This friend was an old roommate of mine.

    Deti-I do agree about the examples you gave. But, I hope “verbal fighting” doesn’t include name-calling or anything that deteriorates the partner’s self-esteem. It’s normal for couples to get angry at each other and fight, but at least know how to fight. If partners engage in name-calling, I would imagine that there is remorse for it and understanding how it can impact someone.

  • WarmWoman

    “I think parents need to take a more active role in raising daughters. They need to actively deprogram the unrealistic and narcissistic expectations that most teen girls develop by participating in our culture.”

    What about parents that pressure their daughters to marry ASAP, or discourage their daughters for taking their time? If my mom had her way, I would have been married overnight to the first rich man that was nice to my parents. I’m sorry, but that is a dangerous situation in my eyes. You really have to get to know someone to feel safe enough to tie the knot.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Warm Woman

      Is that a cultural thing? Would your parents like to arrange your marriage? Most American parents have zero control over that.

  • Jackie

    Reading this has made me incredibly grateful for my parents’ marriage (and old-school upbringing).

    They never expected life to be like a fairy-tale: There were jobs lost, miscarriages, illnesses, temporary hardship and I’m sure lots more that I was never aware of. And yet there was never a second’s doubt that they were devoted to each other and in it for the long haul.

    One incident stands out in my mind: My dad had a brain tumor when I was quite young. The operation was risky and there was a very strong chance that he would end up as a vegetable. My mom had 3 young children and was a stay-at-home mom. Her spine was pure steel, though. I still remember her holding my dad’s hand and being ready to take care of him, of us and find a job, somehow, if things didn’t work out. (Thank God they did and my dad recovered!)

    Thanks, Susan, for an excellent article with some great research. I’m going to call home and say Thanks first thing tomorrow. :-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      Thanks for your comment! You’re a lucky woman to have had such a role model for marriage in your parents. I’m glad you’re going to tell them that. Our kids tell us that, and it’s so gratifying to hear.

  • Babydoll

    @Susan, tvmunson

    “This came straight from feminism, make no mistake.”

    I had the exact same thought when I read about that case. And also that I felt so sad for the father when the courts went the mother’s way.

  • http://tenfoured.blog.com HeligKo

    My wife has definately been on the EPL train. She was raving about the movie shortly after moving out. The pursuit of happiness outside of marriage once you have taken the vows is the problem. Women are sold the idea that the stable, loyal, hard working guy deserves their bad treatment. Under the current system, men like me put up with it, because we don’t want the jack booted thugs knocking on the door because we raised our voice and scared them. Sadly there is an entire system designed to destroy marriage. The very things that make a woman good at wifely things are the very things that are being used to draw her away from the marriages they are in, and the machine behind it makes sure there is at the very least maintain the illusion that they will be taken care of. These things are being actively attacked by tradionalists and MRAs and others, but for now they see.

    1) Female preference in child custody
    2) Child support rates designed to replace alimony until the children are in some cases now, out of grad school in the worst cases.
    3) They will get an eqitable split in property at the least, and usually more because they need the property for the children.
    4) Are not going to be punished for anything they do to the father and his relationship with the children.

    They are given a promise of immense power. What they aren’t told is the power is bequethed to them by the government. They truth is they had more power when they were married witht the influence held. They would have had even more power if they chose to be charming and loving with that husband. The saddest thing I see in my life and other mens is they were willing to do just about anything for ungrateful wives, so how much would they have given for a grateful wife.

    My advice would follow what others have said. That don’t marry a woman who comes from a broken home. For that matter don’t marry a woman who’s mother treats her father poorly. Marry a woman that comes from a home like you want. My parents have been married for 40 years. They love each other very much. My father has cancer and will likely die in the next few years from it or the treatment. My mother, who is still quite beautiful hasn’ flinched in caring for him. She cries not about what she has to do, but about what she will do without him someday. Even without his physical strength and sometimes his full mental function, he is her rock. Even when she has to be a rock for him, he is her rock. This is a choice she made a long time ago, and has lived it every day. There are few women I have met of that character in the modern era, and I have no idea how to weed them out from the rest. I have demonstrated that once already. I have no plans to take that risk again. It would be too costly for my children in my opinion.

    Sorry for the long post, I had a lot on my mind.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HeligKo

      My father has cancer and will likely die in the next few years from it or the treatment. My mother, who is still quite beautiful hasn’ flinched in caring for him. She cries not about what she has to do, but about what she will do without him someday. Even without his physical strength and sometimes his full mental function, he is her rock. Even when she has to be a rock for him, he is her rock. This is a choice she made a long time ago, and has lived it every day.

      That is so beautiful. I hope if I am ever called to nurse my husband, I can do as good a job.

  • Anacaona

    I mentioned before that the best way to “sell” mandatory paternity testing is making “parental security act” or something allong those lines with both parents making sure the baby is theirs to avoid confusion or kidnapping of the baby. If you appeal to motherly fear “imagine if someone steals your baby?” I mean is harder know a days but we still have cases so telling her that among the routine test they can have a brand DNA recognition that the baby is theirs and we need both parents to be 100% sure, it wouldn’t look as a way to assure paternity, YMMV.

  • Anacaona

    Oh great article Susan! :)

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “Another important variable is socioeconomic status. The National Marriage Project puts the divorce rate among college educated couples at only 17% during the first decade, half the rate of their less educated counterparts”

    Really good summary of the state of things. However, only about half of single men say they either won’t marry or aren’t ready yet. The statistic on college educated divorce is pretty amazing (17% after 10 years of marriage) considering the fact that most divorces occur between years 2 and 7 of being married.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      The statistic on college educated divorce is pretty amazing (17% after 10 years of marriage) considering the fact that most divorces occur between years 2 and 7 of being married.

      It really is, and it’s very relevant here because the vast majority of HUS readers are in this demographic, or are studying now. On the other hand, the percentage of EPL divorces is highest in this group, so it’s something I feel that women should be aware of, and men should screen for, as best they can, before marriage.

  • http://tenfoured.blog.com HeligKo

    Oh I must add that in my case. I knew she wasn’t happy. She also wasn’t all that unhappy. Life was boring, and it was clear that I never met the mark of what she thought I should, whether it was the food I might cook, the money I made, etc. When I made a strong effort at the end to meet some of her desires/demands, I was answered with the fact she was demanding things that she thought I wouldn’t do to justify leaving. She had no intention of staying. I lived under the constant threat of do this or divorce being told to me for half my marriage. The problem was there were constant catch-22 situations where I couldn’t do all the things she wanted. The problem was our life wasn’t the fairy tale, and she married me because in her own words “I didn’t think anyone else would ask.” Women who do this to traditional men whe save themselves for marriage not because there wasn’t oportunity, but because they value the idea that sex is for marrage do an extreme disservice. Desparation is the worst reason to marry, and it is unfair to the other person. If someone does marry for these reasons they need to be prepared to love that person. There are a tremendous amount of people that have very successful loving marriages that were arranged. Surely women who have the oportunity to choose can make sure they are committed to the vows they take or to back out if they don’t believe that can make it work.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HeligKo

      The problem was our life wasn’t the fairy tale, and she married me because in her own words “I didn’t think anyone else would ask.”

      What a bitch! Seriously, I am thoroughly disgusted. I am very, very sorry you had to endure that. It makes me ashamed for my sex.

  • WarmWoman

    Susan,

    Yes, they’ve tried to. The pros are that you know that both people want to get married, instead of dating for a year or two and wondering “Is he going to propose to me or is he too scared to take that step?” For those lamenting about how they can’t find a man to marry or commit, the arranged marriage market could be beneficial. I’ve seen white-American women put their ads on Indian marriage sites. The next question is if you will be happy to the person you are marrying. I think I’m more happier with Western style dating.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Warm Woman

      I’ve seen white-American women put their ads on Indian marriage sites.

      Interesting. I read that 15% of women on JDate are Christian. I don’t think the Jewish women care for that much :)

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    “That’s why men need to get game.”

    The solution to all life’s problems, huh? I’m skeptical that it would make everyone happy who’s looking for a lifelong commitment. Not sure how it’s going to discourage sleeping around. If anything it might have the opposite effect. It’s also putting all the onus on guys to change in order to accomodate women.

    Many women who want to marry (or already are married) know what kinds of men are best cut out for it. Maybe those women having trouble need to wake up and change their priorities in a mate? Change can happen on both sides. If you don’t appreciate a guy for who he is (game or not), why marry him anyway?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      It’s also putting all the onus on guys to change in order to accomodate women.

      Yes, this is an inherent problem in Game.

      Maybe those women having trouble need to wake up and change their priorities in a mate? Change can happen on both sides. If you don’t appreciate a guy for who he is (game or not), why marry him anyway?

      Yes, this is my main focus. I’m encouraging change mostly on the female side, though I do support men learning about female psychology in order to relate better to women.

      I firmly believe attraction triggers are malleable. Women will change when they realize they have no choice. The pendulum will swing the other way. I hope I live to see it.

  • GudEnuf

    “We discussed mandatory paternity in a recent thread, and it’s a pretty complicated issue. For one thing, it puts the government in your bedroom”

    48 states have mandatory disease/disorder testing for newborns. I haven’t heard the libertarians complain yet.

    I intend to paternity test all of my children, just out of principle. Then I’ll forward of a copy of the results to the centipede and write “You inspired me to do this.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      48 states have mandatory disease/disorder testing for newborns. I haven’t heard the libertarians complain yet.

      I didn’t know that! Well, if we have a precedent, let’s do it! (I happen to know for a fact that feminists are dead set against it, as an invasion of female privacy.)

  • WarmWoman

    “The problem was our life wasn’t the fairy tale, and she married me because in her own words “I didn’t think anyone else would ask.”

    This is why I don’t believe in settling- the kind of settling that Deti described (compromise is different). Women are hurting their partner when they marry just for the sake of getting married, and not because they’re ecstatically into their partner.

  • sonofagunforbeer

    I’d like to second the idea of women not realizing how offensive EPL is to men. I really find it sickening when a woman mentions it. I’d compare it to my reading “the game” on the subway but i think some women might be into that.

    I do think most men (including me) want to marry but requiring essentially unconditional love is a very high bar.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “On the other hand, the percentage of EPL divorces is highest in this group.”

    To the woman who’s story inspired this post, thanks for nothing. I really don’t like people with poor marriage skills giving the institution a bad name. It tends to encourage questions about marriage’s usefulness. The nuclear family is what allowed human civilization to grow for thousands of years… until about 1980. That almost sounds like a Monty Python sketch.

    Too bad marriage isn’t a members-only club. Because there are a lot of people I wouldn’t let in : )

  • GudEnuf

    I didn’t know that! Well, if we have a precedent, let’s do it! (I happen to know for a fact that feminists are dead set against it, as an invasion of female privacy.)

    I read that as “female privilege”. Sound more appropriate.

    I honestly don’t see how you can call yourself pro-choice if you’re in favor of forcing men to adopt babies they didn’t create.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      I honestly don’t see how you can call yourself pro-choice if you’re in favor of forcing men to adopt babies they didn’t create.

      Are you talkin’ to me? Because I’m not in favor of that at all. And I’m reluctantly pro-choice, for the record.

  • Kim

    Hey,

    Thank you for this post. While I completely disagree – I do appreciate the thoughts. Gilbert basically pisses me off. :)

    Cheers, Kim

  • Jackie

    @Rum (comment #83)

    Hi Rum,
    Would you consider this a modern-day dowry: A lump sum of money purposely set aside for marriage? Because that is what I have been doing for some time; it’s an automatic withdrawal from my pay each month into a separate account.

    It could be put towards a house or the wedding or something towards the marriage. Hopefully my future husband will be pleased! ;-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      That shows a lot of ingenuity and commitment on your part. What a great way to signal you are serious about commitment and building a life together.

  • GudEnuf

    Susan: Are you talkin’ to me? Because I’m not in favor of that at all. And I’m reluctantly pro-choice, for the record.

    No I’m talking to Schwyzer, FigLeaf, Marcotte, and any feminist who chooses to belittle paternity fraud survivors.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “Women will change when they realize they have no choice. The pendulum will swing the other way.”

    From what I’ve observed, people change over time and out of need. What else can you do when happiness continues to elude you? But with ~30% of women not having children at all, 1/3 having to settle for men less educated than themselves (wow), and probably the highest male virginity rate in history, there’s a lot of change to get used to.

    I’ve a minor in history, and like the idea of a swinging pendulum. When monogamous guys interested in commitment are no longer considered boring jokes, we can share a toast : )

  • Jackie

    @ Susan (comment #113)

    Wow, thanks for the response! That is really neat about your kids appreciating you as well. :)

    The ironic thing is, all the things my folks did to prepare me for a successful marriage don’t seem to have much value in the SMP. No guy has ever said, Wow, look at the delayed-gratification and thriftiness on her! ;-) And I’ve been dumped lots for not having sex. Oh well! I don’t need tons of guys, just one man of good character!

    Thanks again and I look forward to learning more from HUS. :)

  • Babydoll

    @Jackie #128

    I think that is a great idea! I’m sure your future husband will be very pleased, lucky man :)

    I look at my peer group and a lot of us live for today, have multiple credit cards and are very impulsive re spending. It’s very refreshing to see someone like you who is thinking and acting for the future.

  • Babydoll

    @Megaman #131

    I don’t know where you live but in my city in Australia, such men are definitely not seen as boring jokes. Most of the women I know are in the 20-40 age range and those who are single are on the lookout for an LTR. We like commitment-minded monogamous men.

  • Jackie

    @ Babydoll #133

    Thanks, Babydoll! :-) I wonder if the impulsive spending is linked to how *fast* everything is available to us, esp. with the internet. Maybe that makes delayed gratification seem even slower in comparison?

    One of my mentors gave me a book “Your Money or Your Life” that you might like. The author is Joe Dominguez. :)

  • Charm

    @Heligko #101

    I come from a broken home/broken family and Ive turned out pretty well. I agree that often people learn bad behaviors that will plague them throughout their lives, but in my case those bad behaviors had the opposite effect on me. It taught me how not to be. My parents were never married, my father never took care of me or my siblings, and yet look how Ive turned out. Id hate to be judged negatively for coming from a “broken” home.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Ms. Babydoll

    I’m across the really big pond in California, U.S.A. It’s like 9pm out here, so I’ll with you a good afternoon : )

    Don’t take this the wrong way, but I remember reading that Australia was one of the more promiscuous Western countries. Or maybe that was New Zealand? I’d think that would make it difficult to find any monogamous men. Maybe it’s just in the really big cities like Sydney or Melbourne. Correct me if I’m wrong.

  • sonofagunforbeer

    Let me take a second to comment on the taxi theory. (Satc is on now and i’m still kicking myself for not taking it as a sign to short the market).

    I went to college expecting to meet my future wife there. After freshman year i realized that women didn’t want a guy into ltrs and i started getting into the hookup scene. I realized that no woman would take me seriouslyu until after grad school or until i was 25 so why not have fun. It’s not that men don’t want ti get marriwd until a certain tu

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    #134 Baby Love
    Once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong
    Under the shade of a coolibah tree….
    (Love Banjo, fellow “Esq.”)

    Need to clear up about Kramer. It was 1979 Picture of the Year and Hoffman won an Oscar; his speech was kind of off putting, saying how the other contestants didn’t actually lose. Yeah? Well why are you the one with the statue? Anyway I don’t think a divorce was granted; I think it was a physical custody determination solely, not a full on trial on the merits. And while I think Meryl’s “need to find myself damn everyone else” impulse was a feminist-style one, I don’t think feminists advocated for retention of the “tender years” doctrine by and large. DNR, but back in the (and her) day, if Gloria Steinem was talking I was listening.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      I wasn’t referring to the custody question so much, as Mrs. Kramer’s decision to throw off the shackles of her marriage and abandon her husband and child. A husband who was loving, decent and hard-working. She was portrayed as robbed by him of the opportunity to do something outside the home, while he got to have drinks out and come home late. The clear message was that being a SAHM not only made her feel worthless, but made her worthless. When she returns, she’s not wearing a Harley Davidson leather jacket, but she’s a career woman, wearing an expensive suit, and with a considerable annual income. All that is straight from the Women’s Movement.

  • sonofagunforbeer

    Z
    Sorry, phone issues: it’s not that men don’t want to get married until a certain time buat that they are looked down on if they are.

  • WarmWoman

    “Id hate to be judged negatively for coming from a “broken” home.”

    I’m with you on that Charm. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but let’s just say some of the posters feel that people’s family backgrounds “lower their value” in the relationship/SMV world. My opinion is that who you are today matters and how much you have overcome a troublesome past and rise above it.

  • Babydoll

    @Jackie #135

    I agree. Instant gratification all round. I want those shoes, a new haircut and a weekend away. All this and no savings to speak of.

    I will look up that book, thanks for the tip :)

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Cheerful #97
    Read wrong; you had the right year.

  • http://tenfoured.blog.com HeligKo

    @charm my comments on choosing a spouse who has had good examples in their parents stand as the best predictor. My wife was very vocal about doing things different from her parents. She was deliberate in how she treated me up until the very first day of our marriage. Things changed quickly. I never saw how her mother treated her father, because she was sick with MS. I saw how her stepmother treated him though, and it wasn’t good, so I should have reasoned what she expected a husband to be like. I willingly acknowledge that there are some that will do better than their parents, perhaps even despite their parents. My mother is one of them. Her father had a mistress her entire child hood, and wasn’t shy about it. I worry about my daughters. The chances for them to have a strong marriage in this culture with a mother who treated marriage so cheaply are very bad. It will take extreme determination and continual will to overcome the legacy they are left with coming from a divorced family. The same is true for my sons for that matter.

  • Mike C

    I think parents need to take a more active role in raising daughters. They need to actively deprogram the unrealistic and narcissistic expectations that most teen girls develop by participating in our culture.

    +1000. I”m not a parent so I might just be talking out of my ass here. I think with boys there is more attention paid to “keeping them out of trouble” where that means making sure no juvenile delinquency, fighting, etc. Very outward stuff of “going bad”. I think when girls “go bad” it is different. It is less active like fist fights at school or shoplifting. It is more about engaging in the sorts of behaviors and habits that are corrosive to personality and turning someone who on outward signs is “doing OK” but is really a rotten, narcisstic, self-entitled person. That said, with the masculinization of women, you are seeing more of the outward stuff like physical fights.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      I think when girls “go bad” it is different. It is less active like fist fights at school or shoplifting. It is more about engaging in the sorts of behaviors and habits that are corrosive to personality and turning someone who on outward signs is “doing OK” but is really a rotten, narcisstic, self-entitled person.

      Yes. It’s not just the culture either. The standards for learning and behavior in schools, along with the self-esteem stuff where everyone gets a trophy for showing up, feeds into female narcissism. The girls constantly get positive reinforcement that they’re doing it the right way, while the boys are constantly chastised and corrected. The shaming of competition, whether academic, physical, musical, etc. robs boys if their natural inclination to compete with other males. The whole public education system is rigged.

      If I could, I’d abolish both the teachers’ union and the Harvard Graduate School of Education, where many of these harebrained schemes were born.

  • Babydoll

    @Megaman

    Good evening :)

    Yes I’ve read that Australia is way up there in the promiscuous stakes. I’ve lived here for almost a decade but not in those big cities you mentioned and I do think it’s true, but for a subset of the population only and probably for a limited time too. Eventually everyone I know who has gone through the promiscuous phase wants to settle down. We are a lot more casual here and I think that attitude spills over into our sex lived. We are also fond of the drink and not just in the big cities.

    Maybe I should move to a more traditional and conservative culture?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    women are also using references to male misbehavior

    Aint that a cue for “there´s no sparkle anymore, he´s too (…) ” beta?

  • Mike C

    No guy has ever said, Wow, look at the delayed-gratification and thriftiness on her! ;-)

    These are very good traits that set you apart. They probably come into play more though in the compatibility stage of a relationship. They really don’t make you more attractive per se. In other words, they don’t boost your SMV but do boost your MMV.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “It really is, and it’s very relevant here because the vast majority of HUS readers are in this demographic, or are studying now.”

    I don’t really consider 1 in 6 couples divorcing to be an amazingly low number. That’s still a massive risk (in point of fact, “risk” is not the chance of something happening, it’s the chance of the event times the cost of the event if it happens, or in probability terms, the expected value of the cost of the event.)

    I was apprehensively awaiting this post and Susan has done a very good job. My advice/warning to the young women reading (hi to the Badger fan club!) is that they need to be honest with themselves about all this, that the system has been built in their favor, and be prepared to be honest with their men about why they’re not going to become another statistic. Guys are really worried about this stuff – I wouldn’t call it “fear” as much as justified, rational anxiety. You need to have an answer to these worries that’s better than the passive-aggressive “what, don’t you trust me?” Plenty of guys have “just trusted” women who wound up destroying them.

    The best answers are actions, not words – so not building your social circle with flighty, perpetually single and (when you’re old enough) frivolously divorcing friends goes a long way. Taking the man’s side in third-party relationship disputes when appropriate (“I told Sally she was doing wrong by her man and should apologize”) is another good step but I suppose that’s unrealistic, and unnecessary if you follow the first tip. Showing respect and admiration for the basic maleness of your man, and visibly appreciating him for his good qualities, is not only going to insulate you against the frustrations of relationship low points, it’s going to have infinite payoff in making your man devoted to you. (Another thing: NEVER cut down your man in public, especially not in front of your family or his. If you think this makes him “too sensitive” or his ego “fragile,” get a pet instead.)

    So appreciation and understanding go a long way. But if women fliply dismiss men’s worries by shaming them as “unromantic” or as fearful boys “afraid of commitment,” or by telling them it’s going to be OK because their chance of divorcing is only 2 in 10 instead of 4 in 10…

    Well, that’s a huge sign that, down the road, you are going to shout and scream and invalidate his very reasonable concerns about anything when it doesn’t perfectly align with what you imagine your interests are.

    Any wise man is going to be healthily skeptical of the marriage system we’ve built in America, and any woman worth marrying is going to show some empathy with his situation.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I enthusiastically cosign Badger’s advice to women.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Babydoll
    “Maybe I should move to a more traditional and conservative culture?”

    I don’t know if you have to go that far. And you don’t have to settle for a promiscous partner if that’s your concern. There countries with real gender imbalance problems (more men than women) like China and India. But in the West, we seem to have problems mating successfully even though there are enough men and women.

    I’ve heard that Israel and France (of all places) seem to have cultures that are highly conducive to marriage and family.

  • Jhane Sez

    “It’s not only women – it’s really just people nowadays. Look at all the male-written travel-memoirs from guys previously stuck in cubicle farms. Existentialist funks fueled by delusions of grandeur, unfulfilled expectations, rampant narcissism, and having life too fucking easy.”

    The couples I have known that participated in frivolous divorce, most divorced in less than 5 years and separated earlier than that…

    The truth is most outside observers could have told you they shouldn’t have gotten married in the first place… the countdown to break up usually started before the engagement was announced.

    I think that men and women aren’t entering marriage with an eye toward partnering and building something together but coming to the table with unspoken list of expectations and requirements.

    I think at the center of every frivolous divorce are usually two people who couldn’t tell you why they got married in the first place ~JS

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “I do think most men (including me) want to marry but requiring essentially unconditional love is a very high bar.”

    I believe “unconditional love” is a bogus notion for marriage. Marriage is a two-way street, both sides need to be equally committed to keeping their value up for the benefit of the other person or it becomes a mooch train.

    Devotion and reasonable commitment in the face of job changes, body changes, disability, the passage of time and all the rest of it, yes. A suicide pact that says “you’re required to go all in no matter whether I feel like trying or not” is not a system I want to draft myself into. As Athol Kay says, if someone is asking for unconditional love, it’s because they don’t meet the conditions. I give my dog unconditional love. My partner has to show she’s at least giving a crap about being good enough to earn it.

    Kim,

    “Thank you for this post. While I completely disagree – I do appreciate the thoughts. Gilbert basically pisses me off. :)

    I have to say I’m confused – what is it that you disagree with? Are you denying that significant numbers of women are initiating “I’m bored” divorces? Does the truth, as Rhett Butler would say, offend you? PLease get back to us on this.

  • J

    Kids are the only people deserving of and entitled to unconditional love. Adults need to earn each other’s love.

  • J

    I agree that often people learn bad behaviors that will plague them throughout their lives, but in my case those bad behaviors had the opposite effect on me. It taught me how not to be.

    Both my DH and I came from broken/troubled homes. We both turned out to be rather exempliary people, highly respected in our community, largely because we learned from our parents’ mistakes. Yet, I can not say we were unscarred by our experiences. Nearly every problem we each have as individuals and every marital problem we have as a couple results directly or indirectly from our respective childhoods. Although we’ve made it work, I think we were both very bad bets for marriage.

  • Charm

    @Heligko

    I think it comes down to a matter of culture as well. We don’t live in one of those “Do better in spite of your circumstances” culture. We live in a “Because of your circumstances we will give you a pass a lower your accountability for your actions” world. People can just get a way with bad behavior and blame it on their upbringing. Im not trying to say there are no ramifications but people have a lot of room to extrapolate them and get away with it.

    Though, I will admit that one thing I have noticed coming from a broken home/family is that I have a much harder time bonding with people. I used to think I was just independent, but I have a high need to be independent. Dependence or interdependence is a foreign concept to me. That probably wouldn’t be good for a long-term commitment.

  • Babydoll

    @Megaman #151

    Yeah I want to avoid men who are or who have been promiscuous. Unfortunately I believe they make poor relationship partners.

    I didn’t know there was a gender imbalance in India.

    I could live in France. All that wine, cheese, pastry … :)

  • Charm

    “Kids are the only people deserving of and entitled to unconditional love.”

    +1
    People for get this all too often.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Great post Susan.

    Over the weekend I found out one of my old friends is separated from (and will inevitably be divorced by) his wife because she says she “just doesn’t want to be married anymore.” It’s completely blindsided and crushed him. Our group always liked her and there never seemed to be any red flags.

    It’s one thing to read about this stuff online, but to experience it firsthand really makes a guy think twice. The whole thing just makes me sick.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Babydoll

    Sorry, I was talking about gender imbalance at birth. China appears to be the worst by far. But it’s still very conservative in it’s marriage customs, at least out in the country.

    I’m not a big fan of dramatic relocation just to find a suitable mate. From what I’ve read and seen, the most marriage-minded people tend to live in rural or suburban areas, at least in the U.S. It’s also where they go to raise children. If you can find a job in a community like that (towns and smaller cities), you shouldn’t have to move far to increase your chances of finding someone special.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    ” “women are also using references to male misbehavior”

    Aint that a cue for “there´s no sparkle anymore, he´s too (…) ” beta?”

    Yes. Athol has framed this as “the dishes are dirty and my vagina is angry with you!”

    Susan speculates that blaming “male misbehavior” forms a coverup of women’s self-motivations for divorce. I think this is not entirely rational; I don’t think it’s controversial to state that women writ large don’t understand their attraction triggers (thus misattributing attraction to being “nice” or some other non-attraction factor), and so are likely to semi-subconsciously misattribute their lack of attraction to some tangible annoyance that wouldn’t be a big deal if he was still giving her the tingles.

    Another thing: the most worthless part of any study is the part where the researchers speculate on the meaning of the data beyond what the data themselves say. It’s supposed to be the section that suggests and motivates further research, but it really often turns out to be a collection of just-so stories that flatter the researchers’ prejudices and sensibilities. This is especially true in psychology and sociology, where the temptation is so high to deny what the experiment has just told you in favor of some pretty lie that makes you feel better.

    Here is one example:

    “Although it is possible that men are becoming more sensitive to relationship dynamics in marriage, we suspect that some men used general references to poor communication and other relationship problems to avoid admitting that their own misbehavior undermined the marriage.”

    What’s going on here is that they’ve started with a preconceived notion that men avoid relationships and don’t care about them, and that women want relationships more than they want to be alone – they state this notion up front. So using that notion as a self-referencing truth, they interpret the data as “men must be being dishonest in marriage surveys” instead of considering the alternate hypothesis that women are actually shitcanning marriages at a greater rate than men are for capricious, nebulous reasons that men don’t understand. I guess it’s not that I’m surprised, but I’m disappointed that even when faced with broad numbers, researchers don’t want to be honest about the cruel brutalities of the walkaway wife syndrome.

    Notice the weasel word “some,” as well, which communicates “even though I’m a scientist, I’m painting with a broad brush and don’t care.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So using that notion as a self-referencing truth, they interpret the data as “men must be being dishonest in marriage surveys” instead of considering the alternate hypothesis that women are actually shitcanning marriages at a greater rate than men are for capricious, nebulous reasons that men don’t understand.

      That’s why I added my own speculation about women not reporting accurately, consciously or subconsciously.

      I don’t think we can sweep bad behavior under the rug, though. EPL is a real phenomenon and highly problematic, but every study I found points to exploitation by some males in marriage, much as the study you quoted did. FWIW, I believe Minig was the only female researcher in this group of studies.

  • Anacaona

    I used to think I was just independent, but I have a high need to be independent. Dependence or interdependence is a foreign concept to me. That probably wouldn’t be good for a long-term commitment.

    Ironically you can find 101 books to avoid being co-dependent but nothing to help people that have issues connecting and committing. Again this is a problem with many branches like the tree of death and ignorance

    +1
    People for get this all too often.

    Au contraire they remember it too well, hence why people refuse to grow up

    @J
    I need to ask you something about my TTC issues can you sent me an email at:hypatiaausten@gmail.com? Thanks in advance.

  • Anacaona

    I guess it’s not that I’m surprised, but I’m disappointed that even when faced with broad numbers, researchers don’t want to be honest about the cruel brutalities of the walkaway wife syndrome.

    Take in account that coming with money to fund this studies is hard they surely know that if the study comes out “misogynist” many sources of money will dry up. I’m not justifying just explaining that PC language keeps pushing the truth back because nothing is worst than “hurting someone’s feelings”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Take in account that coming with money to fund this studies is hard they surely know that if the study comes out “misogynist” many sources of money will dry up.

      I’ve heard this before, but I don’t think it’s accurate. A lot of these studies come out of evo-friendly departments, loathed by the Women’s Studies types. There are enough studies with conclusions that discredit feminism that it’s not credible to say they’re being suppressed.

  • Mike C

    instead of considering the alternate hypothesis that women are actually shitcanning marriages at a greater rate than men are for capricious, nebulous reasons that men don’t understand.

    Ha, still not sure I understand. With my first marriage, we dated off and on for 8 years with a couple of 1-2 year gaps in there. Straight up truth, she basically issued me an ultimatum and I caved despite reservations. So getting married was very much her thing that she pushed very hard for.

    You’d think someone is firmly committed to something they issued an ultimatum to get, right? Ha, you’d be wrong. We got married in May 2004, and I remember coming home one day from work in Oct 2004 and her just staring at me from across the couch. Minutes went by in silence, until she basically said “I’m outta here, I don’t want this anymore”. Later I learned she was having an adulterous affair (had no idea at the time).

    Ironically, a few months later in early 2005 she wanted to “try again”. At that point I was GTFO and we divorced in spring 2005.

    I have one theory about *some* women and marriage and it goes back the validation thingy. We know women will have sex with higher status guys with basically no committment to get male validation. I think for some women, the act of getting married, getting all dressed up in the pretty dress with all eyes on her while the guy waits for her is the ultimate act of validation. It is like the combination meth/crack high of validation. But then the next day starts the messy reality of day to day living as a married couple.

    I think guys have their “angst” before they propose and before they say “I do”. Once done though, thats it. Loyalty, a man’s word is his bond, all that stuff and it is like “OK, I am in this now come hell or highwater”. I think for women it is the opposite. Being proposed to, planning the wedding, etc. all that before stuff it is fun and enjoyment, but the “angst” settles in after that and it seems like it hits different women at different times

    “I had actively participated in every moment of the creation of this life – so why did I feel like none of it resembled me? Why did I feel so overwhelmed with duty, tired of being the primary breadwinner and the housekeeper and the social coordinator and the dog walker and the wife and the soon-to-be-mother, and – somewhere in my stolen moments – a writer?”

    I’ve really tried to screen my current GF hard. We’ve cohabitated for about 1.5 years, and I’ve flat out said that nothing changes the day after we are married. Our day to day lives will remain basically exactly the same. Nothing magical is going to happen to change our daily lives or state of mind. Getting married isn’t waving a magic wand to fix whatever stuff is out there. She seems to really get that so I feel pretty comfortable. If by some fluke chance, I’ve got this wrong, I’ll be flabbergasted and join the crusaders saying no man should ever get married. I really think it is possible to find and identify women who take committment seriously. Reading some of the comments is encouraging.

  • Babydoll

    @Megaman #160

    Funnily enough, I relocated to a bigger city for a relationship which subsequently fell apart. I decided to stay on as it was such a fun place to be in. Since the breakup less than a year ago, I’ve been approached by more men than I ever was in my previous city. There is more migration to my current city both from within Australia and overseas, and there are lot of young professionals in that group. I think I’ve only been out with one locally born and bred Australian since the breakup. I agree with you, location does matter and so does our mindset. I’d hate to give up the city life though, I like the lifestyle.

    I would hate to be a man in the Chinese SMP. I read somewhere that many are resorting to sex workers and sex toys to cope with the lack of women. Or going overseas.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “(They cite the anticipation of custody as the most statistically significant factor in women initiating divorce proceedings at any given point.)”

    Dalrock has talked at length about this, and it’s a critical point to understand that can’t be minimized. The presumption of maternal custody does a few things:

    -Guarantees the woman some stream of income (child support margins in America are very high compared to the rest of the developed world, and this is a recent development in line with the Clinton-era anxiety about “deadbeat dads”)

    -Enables her to go on the offensive in court, knowing the field is tilted in her favor anyway

    -Enables her to maintain her self-styled image as a mother while getting rid of the annoying male figure. This feeds the rationalization hamster that she’s doing it “for the children” or somesuch nonsense. Dalrock has quoted an example of a woman who envisioned divorce as a “neutron bomb” that would remove the man from her life but keep everything else intact. This despite the fact that a mother who would frivolously remove her children’s father from their house is nowhere near what one could term a “good mother” (http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/03/26/marriage-is-part-of-parenting/)

    -Gives the woman a sort of moral bomb-blast suit, should she so choose to use it – she can always get a carte blanche of sympathy by appealing to her single-mother status, sometimes relying on the bogus cultural trope that divorce is about men leaving their wives for “younger models.”*

    It’s a bit like the classic example of chutzpah, a kid who murders his parents then asks the court to be lenient to an orphan…a woman who destroys her marriage, requests custody and a parental pension then complains that she’s overworked with children and can’t have a high-powered career.

    *The irony being, if the husband was attractive enough to attract (not sleep with, but attract) a younger model, they’d have enough value that most of these EPLers wouldn’t divorce them in the first place.

  • Mike C

    -Guarantees the woman some stream of income (child support margins in America are very high compared to the rest of the developed world,

    What’s that I hear opening? Oh yeah, that’s the lid to Pandora’s Box :)

    I think Doug and Olive were good for about 100+ comments on this on a previous thread. From what I recall of that thread, the idea that child support is really to some extent de facto spousal support/alimony was quite contentious.

  • JCclimber

    @ Charm,
    what makes you so sure you’d ever even know if your husband got a paternity test?

    I know my wife would never know I did it, if I’d ever had any reason for doubting my child’s genetic relation to myself. Unless it came back negative, in which case I’d just announce that some of my obscure relatives had some genetic disorders, and I wanted our child to get screened to see if he was carrying that genetic marker from me. Test scheduled for this afternoon, and I’m taking him to the clinic.

    I mean, if I already knew that the child wasn’t mine, how much would it bother me if she’s screeching and delaying and protesting? Don’t try to give any crap about “don’t you care about the child you’ve loved and developed a relationship with for the past few years?” Seriously, a woman cheats, gets pregnant, and lies every hour of every day to her friends, her child, and her “soul-mate” about who the father is, and what do you think the chances are that she’ll stick around for the rest of the childhood?

  • Anacaona

    It is like the combination meth/crack high of validation. But then the next day starts the messy reality of day to day living as a married couple.

    I want to expand that most women had been to a wedding but how many women of the past generation had lived the day to day of what a marriage is? I was excited about our wedding I got the dress and the planning and I even got a crown with my dress, so I was doing the whole princess day thing (and trust me i plan to renew our vows every ten years to get to play dress up again with the same man of course :D) but then I was also looking forward to building a life with my husband, having small routines , cooking for him, doing laundry, encouraging his hobbies and passions and writing my novels and gaining some income with it so he worry less about money, I even wondered how our first fights were going to be but again I had been living with my very married parents since a few years before I moved in with my hubby. I had the whole picture fairytale wedding and the marriage too. I think this generation has a lot more info on the dating and the wedding than on anything else your crazy ex included.

  • BroHamlet

    @Badger

    Susan speculates that blaming “male misbehavior” forms a coverup of women’s self-motivations for divorce. I think this is not entirely rational; I don’t think it’s controversial to state that women writ large don’t understand their attraction triggers (thus misattributing attraction to being “nice” or some other non-attraction factor), and so are likely to semi-subconsciously misattribute their lack of attraction to some tangible annoyance that wouldn’t be a big deal if he was still giving her the tingles.

    This is a really big part of the problem with relations between the sexes these days, and not just in a marital context. To use your term, there are so many “pretty lies” out there that have been fed to both sides. Obviously guys stand to repeatedly get burned by these lies until they see them for what they are. For women, the lack of social accountability allows them to go through life on a virtually unchecked diet of those lies and apply them to every situation involving men. This is dangerous, and why I think a big qualifier for marriage material in women is a really honest knowledge of self. Until the culture changes to be more realistic and less female-centric, a lot of women will still be living a lie about their nature and make themselves a liability for marriage without their own knowledge.

  • Höllenhund

    I’l like to call everyone’s attention to this (by and large) accurate post by Athol:

    http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2011/12/technology-created-marriage-20-not.html

    Marriage 2.0 is dying and will hopefully get killed off and then tossed into the dustbin of history due to either the emergence of new technologies which favor men or civilizational collapse, which also favors men (relatively speaking).

  • Babydoll

    @BroHamlet

    “For women, the lack of social accountability allows them to go through life on a virtually unchecked diet of those lies and apply them to every situation involving men.”

    What do you mean by lack of social accountability? Can you give an example? I am trying to about this issue – it makes me sad that so many here seem to be put off the idea of marriage.

  • Babydoll

    @BroHamlet

    Oops I meant “trying to learn about”

  • Höllenhund

    @Kathy

    “Most men, as do women, have a biological imperative to reproduce.”

    In a theoretical sense, yes. But men have no desire to reproduce. They desire to shoot their loads. Siring children has merely been the normal and unintended byproduct throughout the ages because condoms and other contraceptives didn’t exist. We can be sure that the overwhelming majority of children born throughout history were unplanned. The script has normally been the same: guy unintentionally knocks up girl, then gets pressured by his relatives, the girl’s relatives and his community into marrying her and then working like a pack mule. Just ask any old man about this. But now more and more men are refusing to be evolution’s puppets and women are freaking out. (I might add they’ve refused to be evolution’s puppets as well, but, you see, they don’t want men to do the same.) When you give people the option to control their fertility, they will do so. That’s why we’re witnessing demographic implosion everywhere.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      We can be sure that the overwhelming majority of children born throughout history were unplanned.

      I find that a rather shocking statement, and I’m anything but sure about it. What is your evidence for this claim?

  • Höllenhund

    Some world traveler PUA should release a book about his adventures entitled ‘Drink, Party, F*ck’.

  • Babydoll

    @Hollenhund

    I checked out MMSL over the Xmas break and that article you linked was one that I read. I remember thinking at the time that he was spot on. I’ve reread it and I still think he is spot on.

    Hmm … maybe we should do away with the birth control pill – now I shall run for cover for daring to utter such a sacrilegeous statement.

  • Höllenhund

    On the subject of slut shaming (it seems to pop up in many threads here):

    “I hope you do realize that it wasn’t the “embarrassment” of slut-shaming, but the concrete consequences of acquiring the label, that made women afraid of the label. Slut-shaming worked because sluts suffered. Nobody cared for them, nobody married them, they were physically isolated or even cast out of society. Sluttishness will decrease when sluts are no longer fed. Then slut-shaming will be a powerful tool again. Until then it’s just pointless nagging that will get the shamer shamed for being “judgmental”. Judging only makes sense when there is a punishment attached to the crime…Men’s reputations matter more than women’s. Women don’t really care about shaming… They have no honor to protect. For women, consequences have to be very concrete.”

    http://traditionalchristianity.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/a-model-of-the-collapse-argentina-2001/#comment-16547

  • Lokland

    @Babydoll

    “Hmm … maybe we should do away with the birth control pill – now I shall run for cover for daring to utter such a sacrilegeous statement.”

    Or maybe we should give the pill to the men.
    Legitimate possibility within 10 years. (Maybe 15.)
    And yes, the feminists are trying to shut down the research hard core but its got quite a few other uses in disease treatment that are keeping it very much alive.

  • Babydoll

    @tvmunson #139

    “Once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong
    Under the shade of a coolibah tree….”

    You know what, I’ve lived Down Under for as long as I have and I still need a dictionary to work out what that means. Shocking, no? Or maybe no one uses those terms anymore, I’ve certainly never heard ‘swagman’ or ‘coolibah’ uttered in conversation and when I see/hear ‘billabong’ I think of the surfing wear/fashion company.

    Thanks for clearing that up re the Kramer movie. I may have watched it but it must’ve been a long time ago – I can only vaguely remember a bit of the courtroom scenes.

  • Babydoll

    @Lokland

    Wow really a pill for men? That never occurred to me. Will that make things any better though? We have the condom now and that serves it purpose unless it breaks … wait, that’s why a pill would be better right? And the sensation, of course, I’m not a man but I’ve been told it feels better without a condom.

    And why are the feminists against a pill for men?

  • Kathy

    “Or maybe we should give the pill to the men.”

    It will never be a popular choice with men..When they haveother options.

    It just won’t.

    Some men will feel emasculated.. The cost of such pills will be high. Side effects? Often not fully known until years down the track.

    As one doctor said .”The main problem with the male pill is sheer practicality. In women, one egg cell is released per month, according to a fairly precise set of hormonal events. So, dead easy to throw a spanner in the works of this system and stop the egg being released.

    Men, by contrast don’t have this precise hormonal sequence in sperm cell production; we just churn out sperm by the millions each day and every day. So, for the male pill to be effective, you’ve got to disrupt a far more robust mechanism and do so with better than 99.99% effectiveness or else a few sperm could get past the process and fertilize the woman.

    This isn’t easy; so far nobody’s been able to do it, and frankly since doctors and biologists aren’t fools and know a very hard challenge with few payoffs when they see one, not many have even attempted it.”

  • Anna

    @ sonofagunforbeer
    I see that, but I happen to agree with those women. Not in the sense that I’d be looking for casual at this stage, but I generally prefer for men to be older. Guys mature later, and the educated, cultured men I could imagine marrying whom are <25 are so few in between that the generalization is usually worth making. Obviously many of those guys are doing an education, but most of the men looking to marry at this stage do not have a higher degree. Even statistics show to this – men with masters degrees and successful jobs usually look to marry around 28-30.
    I am 21 now, and could imagine meeting someone for an LTR that would turn serious, and the men I consider are usually around 26-27.

    I think what the taxi theory means for most women, is that you wait for the eligible guys to want to settle, out of nowhere they find themselves a cute little wife at 30. He's been playing the field forever, he's dated women that are far more beautiful, intelligent, funny and charismatic than the woman he now settles with. He's had women before that would have made great wives, he just wasn't there yet, and his light wasn't on. I've ever heard guys say, "for a wife, I'd like someone petite. And more with a job like..a nurse". Even if Charlize Theron put herself on a plate when they were 23, if they had options with women then, they still wouldn't go for it.

    I get the men thinking "come on, this new girl is better than you and you should accept it", or Jesus' typical "you're not as amazing as you think you are", I'm not saying this from a bitter point of view, I'm merely quoting what other women (women with a lot of options) have passed on to me. It's not as easy as "a wife should be kind rather than career-focused". I honestly think the requirements for a wife are not always as high as women think they are. If the guy is alpha, that might be part of the story, as he's not planning to be faithful anyway.

  • Lokland

    Yes pill for men. SARMs(SMARMs? can’t remember which). They basically shut down testosterone signalling in specific areas of the body. (The problem is making it specific enough, example currently theres one to prevent hair loss but it also causes impotence.) Same idea as the female pill actually just aimed at testosterone instead of estrogen. The thing is theres been little to no research done on them in the past 50ish years. Until know because they appear to be useful in disease treatments and also before that feminists kept it out of reach for a male pill.

    I don’t think accidental pregnancy is possible in todays day and age.
    For that to occur a woman has to forget the pill for multiple days in a row, during her ovulation and also have the guy not wear a condom (but that can be eithers fault).Then throw on that the chance of pregnancy during one sexual encounter is 20-30%. For all of that to go wrong is simply ridculous.

    I don’t think its conscious, I think its more of an ‘ohh silly me I forgot my pill today, and yesterdaey etc.’. But in the end its the same result as a women who takes the condom out of the trash and inseminates herself.

    Switching it over to mens control would entirely prevent this because it places the onus on men (and if he f’s it up then he is responsible without a doubt). Condoms are very effective but its so easy to forget, they kill the feeling etc. A pill would be a more elegant solution as well as side-stepping the trash pickers.

    The reason feminists are against it? I’m not sure.
    If I had to take a guess,
    it would short-circuit a lot of the unfair marriage laws in practice today regarding custody and child support (similar to mandatory paternity testing) because it would place all of the power of childbirth in mens hands (assuming women want children more than men here).

    For example, in Canada if a women picks your condom out of the trash, inseminates herself you are responsible for child support. Ridculous, everyone with a brain knows its insane. Its essentially rape (on the reproduction issue not all the other negatives). A male pill would eliminate this problem.

    Basically a man has always needed a woman to reproduce. A woman typically can reproduce without effort because guys are horny 24/7 and then some. (She needs resources but thats an entirely different debate.)
    A male pill would make women dependent on men for children. The husband/bf/lover would gain an immense amount of power.

    Thought experiment, imagine there were very few men wiling to father children and actually had a way to prevent fatherhood from occuring. That would leave lots of women who want children with few sources (these sources might not be alphas). What are women to do? I see either get with one of the guys who want kids or go in vitro and the single mommy route because there would be no way to force men to have children.
    One way to entice men back into fatherhood would be to make it a fair or even winning proposition for them. (I’d settle for fair.)

    Now one last thing, upthread it was mentioned that in the US that 30% of American women don’t end up having children. (Thats truly scary btw.)
    What do you think would happen if a male pill was invented that prevented accidental pregnancy?
    The change might not be huge but it would change.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    In my experience, women who can’t find commitment have obvious flaws, whether in their personalities, their screening processes, or combination thereof. They protect their egos by trying to put the onus on men, but really they should look inward.

    In the same way that MRAs and MGTOW are annoying insofar as they blame women for their troubles instead of looking inward at themselves.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Megaman,

    I don’t know why you’re so skeptical about game. You seem to think that if more men learn game, you’ll have to lock away the wife and daughters for fear of their safety.

    Good game isn’t about making good guys bad; it’s about making good guys more marketable. It’s that simple.

  • Anna

    @ Jesus
    I agree, but in many women’s opinion a 23 year old guy learning game might get a taste for casual sex. Guys hate to hear the “good guys are just bad guys without options”, but this is how many women feel. At the age of 27, a guy might benefit from it in the sense that he can get the attractive women he wants and deserves. But the need to “play the field” before settling isn’t just some asshole thinking, many guys feel that way (due to how men are biologically wired). Perhaps you don’t, but you have to acknowledge how many do. So a young guy guy learning game is likely to use it to get casual sex for some time.
    When I first read your comments here a long time ago, they were much more bitter and with little insight. I take this is a sign that either men indee mature later, or that there is a chance I come back at HUS 6 months from now and you’ve changed your POV again :D

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Mike C,

    From what I recall of that thread, the idea that child support is really to some extent de facto spousal support/alimony was quite contentious.

    Haha who made the statement you quoted? I’m gonna go hunt them down… :-P

    Yes, that is precisely what I found when I researched the topic for my own state. I won’t argue about it anymore, but feel free to take my position!

  • Höllenhund

    Female hostility to the idea of the male birth control pill is easy to explain. Women want and demand a monopoly on reproduction. They’ve traditionally been able to get impregnated by pretty much any man (any alpha, to be more precise), (almost) anytime, anywhere. This is one source of their social power. If something prevents this, they get angry.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan..”abolish both the teachers’ union and the Harvard Graduate School of Education”

    Schools of education have done tremendous harm to the American public school systems, both directly through their promulgation of theories du jour and indirectly by being so generally awful that they deter talented and spirited people from entering the teaching field, because such people don’t want to spend years listening to nonsense from professors who have some of the lowest IQs in all of academia coupled with some of the highest arrogance levels.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    6 months ago I was still reeling from a failed engagement.

    You’re right, BTW. Men who learn game young will be likely to use it to get some casual sex, at least occasionally.

    But you don’t have to put out for them.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    Btw, good guys generally are bad guys w/o options. Just as good girls are bad girls w/o options. Growing up with a lack of options tempers us, causes us to develop in ways we wouldn’t have otherwise. People who’ve never experienced a lack of options (which is to say a lack of power), are typically spoiled, bratty assholes who lack empathy and values.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Just as good girls are bad girls w/o options.

      Virtually all girls have options for sex. Yet many reject casual sex, and waste no time pursuing “alpha genes.”

  • Anna

    @ Jesus
    No I don’t have to put out for them, but other girls probably will. Which doesn’t give much progress.

    Yes, good guys are often bad guys without options. But no, good girls are not bad girls without options. Unless you mean girls are “bad” from simply dating. In my mind, bad girls are into casual sex and also promiscuous behavior. If good girls didn’t have options, that would be like saying only attractive girls participate in casual sex. Most of the time, the opposite is true. Casual sex is not a privilege for women. Some of the time it’s because they want to, most of the time it is because they seek validation and they can’t get a real relationship with the guy they want, sometimes they just don’t know how to get what they want. From my experience:
    Girls with options date and are in relationships with top notch men.
    Girls without options date less attractive men or sleep casually with top notch men.
    Men with options date top notch women or sleep with less attractive women.
    Men without options don’t sleep with or date anyone.

  • Just1X

    I think that “unplanned by the man” would be more accurate…IMHO.

    A number of male acquaintances have said that the decision to have children would be made by their partners…’they’ would know when the time was right.

    I find this attitude absolutely appalling.

    Give men a non-hormonal birth control pill and there would have to be a conversation about having a kid, whoops pregnancies would vanish in any relationship involving an above moron level man.

    Birth rates would drop through the floor, I reckon. And rightly so. Decisions to have kids should be bi-lateral.

    This loss of power for women will make feminists spit blood.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      I would welcome a male Pill. I bet the U.S. Supreme Court would hold that to be a fundamental right. I don’t see how any reasonable person could object.

  • Höllenhund

    What’s so shocking about that? People’ve normally become parents in their late teens (or early twenties) throughout history. Do you think most of them understood human reproduction? Do you think all those 18-22 year-old peasant hicks wanted to become fathers? LOL. People are f*cking dumb. Teenage pregnancy still occurs regularly in the West even though there are many forms of contraception available.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Do you think all those 18-22 year-old peasant hicks wanted to become fathers? LOL.

      Yes, many of them did because children were a labor resource. Not sure why that’s funny.

      People are f*cking dumb. Teenage pregnancy still occurs regularly in the West even though there are many forms of contraception available.

      Including condoms, which are 98% effective when used properly. How much more effective could the male pill be?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Virtually all girls have options for sex. Yet many reject casual sex, and waste no time pursuing “alpha genes.”

    I didn’t mean “options for sex,” I meant options in general. People who are good, who’ve developed empathy and kindness, are generally people who’ve been thwarted in their attempts to get what they want.

  • Butterfly Flower

    I think you guys are overestimating the influence of middle aged career women when it comes to propagating the “Eat Pray Love” mindset. Oddly enough, the worst anti-marriage “ELP” advice I’ve ever received has been given to me by self-professed “happily married” [*]American conservative women.

    According to these women, I’m marrying my fiance because I’m pregnant/trying to piss off my parents/for attention/because my friends are getting married. Apparently I need to break off my engagement, before I make a big mistake. My future marriage will be miserable. I easily brush off these projections; however, I think it’s peculiar that the women who claim to personify happy successful traditional[-ish] marriages, are the individuals most likely to discourage young-women from pursuing said lifestyle.

    [*] My Japanese relatives/friends are supportive. Only American women denounce my engagement.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Butterfly Flower

      That surprises me. I would have expected so cons to approve early marriage, and feminists to question it.

  • Just1X

    Yes, but Susan, I was talking about feminists… LMAO

  • Just1X

    it’s so difficult to set up an old one-two without a high quality straight-man

    thanks Susan

  • Höllenhund

    @Anna

    “Guys hate to hear the ‘good guys are just bad guys without options’, but this is how many women feel.”

    Yeah, maybe that’s how they ‘feel’…due to the apex fallacy, of course. The women who say this never actually consider pairing up with an actual good guy, of course. Real-life good guys are invisible to her, and thus she never actually interacts with them unless she’s rejecting them outright; ‘good guys’ only exist in her mind as ‘assholes in disguise’ i.e. caricatures to ridicule and trample on. This is yet another example of the female rationalization hamster at work. Of course women will say good guys don’t actually exist – it validates their choice to ride the alpha cock carousel by giving the impression that there’s no better alternative.

    Needless to say, all this is just nonsense. There are many genuine good guys, they in fact make up the large majority of men. But their lower testosterone levels, the resulting lack of aggression and their open willingness to commit to a woman make them unattractive. If good guys actually didn’t exist, humanity would have gone extinct because no man, with or without options, would bother to rear his children. It’s beta good guys who fulfill the role of reliable fathers. Do you think alpha males are capable of that? Hell no, throughout history they just impregnate anything that moved and then they left. I bet most of their spawn wouldn’t have even survived into adulthood if cuckolded betas hadn’t been around to raise them.

    “At the age of 27, a guy might benefit from it in the sense that he can get the attractive women he wants and deserves. But the need to “play the field” before settling isn’t just some asshole thinking, many guys feel that way.”

    …and women too, I might add. Ever heard of preselection? Women only want men that other women want.

  • Jhane Sez

    I know more Runaway Brides than Walk Away Wives… I don’t know if anyone mentioned the fact that Julia Roberts has played both.

    I think these are shop worn fantasies that appeal to women who don’t want to take responsibility for their choices in life or partners.

    I think “I’m bored” is more accurately translated as “I am boring”… and this is the result of a generation afraid of mediocrity and being average.

    Normal isn’t sexy.

    I had never given much thought to the behavior of the women that I know and know of, because in every instance I thought she did the guy a favor by getting out sooner rather than later, because it was obvious that at some point she was going to leave.

    And it was my thinking that all the guys won because after these women left they found, in short order, women who made much better matches.

    I have always seen this behavior as the male dodging a bullet.

    I think the problem with these types of women is that they are practiced at the art of deception, because they are successful at securing commitment, which they want but they are afraid of choosing wrong and wasting their youth without knowing if things would have been better with someone else.

    When the truth is that they weren’t equipped to make it work with anyone, even their dream guy would eventually come up short… because marriage isn’t about somebody making you happy and eventually they wouldn’t have been

    I don’t think that these women are chasing the tingle, I think they are chasing something much more elusive… happiness

    One of my favorite books Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual by Dennis Prager, it was written after he was going through divorce for the first time (full disclosure he has been married 3).

    What I find valuable is the idea that while it is human nature to avoid pain, the constant quest for pleasure under the guise of seeking happiness is misguided… the problem is that most people don’t know what it means to be genuinely happy or let alone how to achieve real happiness.

    Which is why I think the IDEA of EPL is so appealing… because getting engaged, planning the wedding, being married, getting married didn’t get them to happy… so maybe there is another path.

    I think this becomes the problem, this is the thing that men don’t get, and it is ultimately why these women can’t achieve what it is they want most… to be happy. ~JS

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jhane Sez

      while it is human nature to avoid pain, the constant quest for pleasure under the guise of seeking happiness is misguided

      Yes, I’ve seen this with my own kids. It’s like they think being happy means their are no bumps in the road. When really, being happy is feeling OK about the way you’re dealing with setbacks and crises, and keeping them in perspective.

      I’ve resorted to reminding them what life must have been like in the Middle Ages -short and hard. We’re all really just incredibly spoiled…

  • Emily

    Anna,

    FWIW, I more or less agree with what you’re saying. I mean, obviously people should still try to make themselves the best person that they can be, both for their own sake and for their partner. And it also needs to be remembered that some guys are never going to want to settle down. So even if a guy is a bit older, it’s still important to test that the light is “on” before investing yourself too much. But overall, if you’re looking for a marriage partner then I think it’s a good strategy to look at guys in their late 20′s.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    I’d just like to point out a few things:

    1. Girls who indulge in casual sex for validation aren’t girls who are exercising options, but girls who lack options. If they had options, they would find more productive ways of boosting their self esteem.

    2. Girls who don’t know how to get what they want are also lacking options.

    I would say that these girls are about as attractive as guys who have no options.

    The girls who know what they want and also know how to get it, but choose to have casual sex, are as attractive as players.

    My ex-fiancee was extremely pretty, and yet she slept around quite a bit in college, which was the reason I broke things off with her.

    The other thing I wanted to say was that, “top notch” is a subjective notion. To a woman who’s shallow, who’s used to getting what she wants when she wants it, a top notch guy might simply be one with high status and a conventionally handsome appearance. a woman less accustomed to options, might look beneath the social status and conventional looks to find something less superficially attractive.

    That ties in nicely with Olive’s theory correlating hypergamy with herd instinct.

  • Anna

    @ Höllenhund
    I am not personally buying into the “good guys are losers”, so you don’t need to preach the good guy’s cause here. There are degrees of good and bad, and most men find themselves somewhere in between, with a taste for casual sex as well as a desire for someone to settle down with. I just don’t buy into the idea that a grown up man with no luck with women whatsoever is simply “too nice” and that no women want a decent man. Not all women are as judgmental about men as most of your posts are on women. If a guy is stressing too hard the fact that he is “one of the nice guys”, that is a red flag to me. If he on top of it claims that no women want him because they all want jerks, then he’s definitely out. Bitter don’t make good partners, and he is possibly one bad date away from hating women. Those are the guys that turn into rapists, mind you. If no woman on the face of the earth could make it work with him, he would seriously be nuts to claim that this the world’s female population’s fault, rather than him.

    Women like men other women like, not because they follow everyone else’s opinion (they wouldn’t necessarily know his exes anyway), but because a) he has relationship experience and sexual experience, b) they probably like him for a reason. I don’t fancy a guy more because other girls do, but I am likely to fancy him less if he has never been held by a woman at an adult age. Despite men’s insisting that this is a lady phenomenon, men are influenced by a girl being labeled as a slut, bitch or golddigger by other men, a girl having too many partners etc. In the same way, men are also influenced by media, this is how a “hype” around a celeb woman is created.

  • Anna

    @ Jesus
    “1. Girls who indulge in casual sex for validation aren’t girls who are exercising options, but girls who lack options. If they had options, they would find more productive ways of boosting their self esteem.”

    That was exactly the point I was making.
    You said: “good girls are bad girls without options”.
    To me:
    Girls who indulge in casual sex = girls with no options. And IMO, girls who indulge in casual sex = bad girls. Which means bad girls = girls with no options.
    And according to you, bad girls without options are good girls. Which is why I found your statement to not make sense, unless you have another view on what bad girls are.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    I think that anybody at either extreme (having all the options, or having no options) is probably bad news.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I was over-simplifying when I said that good guys=bad guys with no options. Good guys are guys who’ve experienced a lack of options… who’ve experienced restrictions.

  • Emily

    >> I think that anybody at either extreme (having all the options, or having no options) is probably bad news.

    This!!! Seriously, when are we going to get our Jesus blog?

  • chris
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @chris

      That’s an excellent post by Whiskey. I’m working on a post about women who wish to stay single, and I think it will be useful. Thanks for linking.

  • Anna

    @ Jesus,
    sure I don’t personally agree that all good guys are bad guys without options.
    I believe they are guys who either mature late, have been unlucky so far, have had bad experiences or are unattractive to women. How they would react to having game is individual, but it is reasonable to believe that some would have success with a great girl in a healthy relationship, but a fair share would choose casual sex, at least for a certain amount of time.

    My main point was that “good girls are bad girls without options” does not make sense, by any reasonable interpretation of what “bad” girls are.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Emily,

    I don’t think that’s happening. I already spend too much time commenting here. I wouldn’t make any money if I tried to start my own blog.

  • Escoffier

    “No guy has ever said, Wow, look at the delayed-gratification and thriftiness on her!”

    I did.

  • Stingray

    Something to consider for those of you advocating mandatory paternity testing at birth. I don’t think you realize the number of fervently antifeminist men you would be alienating by advocating this. You would be putting these men (and they are becoming more numerous everyday) in the same camp as the feminists regarding this issue. People are realizing more everyday that they do not want more government in their lives, they want less. Wouldn’t it, therefore, behoove you to advocate removing the laws that are so slanderous against men that are currently on the books and have a vast majority of men standing with you than having those same men standing with the feminists?

  • deti

    @ Anna: Bitter [men]don’t make good partners, and he is possibly one bad date away from hating women. Those are the guys that turn into rapists, mind you.

    Anna, that is a shockingly offensive statement. Evidence, please. Statistics, please.

    It’s the women, not the men, who are brandishing the long knives on this thread. Hollenhund has come here expressing simple manosphere and game truths, and the gnashing of teeth is well underway.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s the women, not the men, who are brandishing the long knives on this thread. Hollenhund has come here expressing simple manosphere and game truths, and the gnashing of teeth is well underway.

      Eh, I think that’s a bit extreme. First of all, Hollenhund is generally snide and aggressive in his demeanor, which does not help. We women do not like to communicate with men who approach us that way. For example, he has often demanded I read this or that, write about this or that, come up with stats for this or that. Yet when I write a post that should please him, what does he express? “Simple manosphere truths?” Like this?

      Female hostility to the idea of the male birth control pill is easy to explain. Women want and demand a monopoly on reproduction. They’ve traditionally been able to get impregnated by pretty much any man (any alpha, to be more precise), (almost) anytime, anywhere. This is one source of their social power. If something prevents this, they get angry.

      Sorry, but that statement is hardly one I would swallow, and objecting to it does not constitute gnashing of teeth. I view Hollenhund as a rather extreme MRA, which means that many of this “truths” are less than obvious to most men and women.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    You’ve had casual sex. Why would you want to keep guys in the dark about how to attract women just because they might choose to indulge in a bit of the same?

  • deti

    @ Hollenhund:

    I think you’re right that men don’t necessarily aspire to become fathers. When I was single I gave only the most fleeting thoughts to fatherhood. Married men want regular access to steady sex. Well adjusted married men accept fatherhood as a natural consequence of being married and getting to sex up your wife regularly, and they step into it gracefully and with aplomb. But it’s not something a man spends years preparing for, or thinking about, or considering, or dreaming of.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      But it’s not something a man spends years preparing for, or thinking about, or considering, or dreaming of.

      Dr. Helen Fisher: Moreover, men in every age group are more eager than women to have children. Even young men. Among those between ages 21 and 34, 51% of men want kids, while 46% of women yearn for young.

      http://blog.match.com/2011/02/04/the-forgotten-sex-men/

      Warning: More alpha bashing:

      Women were asked to value, who of men on pictures was most interested in children, who was most masculine, and whom they would like to have as a partner for long or short-term relationships.

      Women recognized men, interested in children, amazingly precisely, and also pointed to men with highest level of testosterone. They chose men, who love children, for long relationships, and those who were more masculine – for short-term.

      http://articles.familylobby.com/312-does-your-man-want-children3f-his-features-wi.htm

      Finally, by way of personal anecdote, my husband told me on our third date that he wanted a daughter with a particular name he had always loved. He got it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    deti,

    I’d say that’s flat-out wrong in my case. I’ve considered becoming a father. I think about it. I want it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Plus, if that were true, then that would invalidate the argument that men are looking for a trustworthy woman because they have an instinctual fear of being cuckolded.

  • Butterfly Flower

    I know more Runaway Brides than Walk Away Wives… I don’t know if anyone mentioned the fact that Julia Roberts has played both.

    I’m shocked at the casual way women suggest breaking off my engagement. How is stomping on a young-man’s heart a casual decision? I love my fiance; I can’t toss my feelings aside to chase rainbows. It’s like these women don’t realize men have feelings, and can get hurt.

  • Anna

    @ Jesus
    I don’t want to keep men in the dark. I just disagree with the fact that the “good guys” out there just need to learn game for everybody to be happy.
    First of all, some of the “good guys” with no luck with women simply just haven’t got what women want. Not all, but some. Secondly, I believe men are more likely to jump on the carousel and participate in casual sex into their thirties if they got a late start. Most women will try casual sex at one point but not make it a lifestyle. I did when I was 19, I am a of a different believe now that I am 21.
    If a “good guy” with no female action learns game and uses it for casual sex, no problem for me, I’m not going to sleep with him. But someone made a point out of it as a solution for the sexual market, and that it would result in more and better relationships, which I don’t actually believe to be 100% true.

  • Anna

    I think Susan wrote once about guys who’s just converted, “pretending” to be bad guys: “some like the new action so much, they never come back from the dark side”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anna

      “some like the new action so much, they never come back from the dark side”.

      FWIW, I think a small percentage of men do this. Most guys who get some game are relationship-oriented, and use their newfound knowledge of female sexuality to get a girlfriend. Amber Madison found in her book that guys are “Impostor Assholes” for that express purpose.

      To be a real player, a guy has to be pretty low on empathy, high on narcissism (flip side of the same coin), high on novelty seeking and low on impulse control. He’s also got to have a dopamine system in overdrive. Luckily, there just aren’t that many men who have all those traits.

  • deti

    @ Anna:

    “Casual sex is not a privilege for women. Some of the time it’s because they want to, most of the time it is because they seek validation and they can’t get a real relationship with the guy they want, sometimes they just don’t know how to get what they want.”

    This is only partially correct. It goes deeper than that, I think. Sex is a woman’s first, best agency. It is her trump card, first, last and always. Women understand that men want sex, women have it, and women decide which man/men will get sex from her, when and under what circumstances.

    At bottom, in this SMP, casual sex for men is about sex. But for women, casual sex, and sex in general, is about power. Sex is how some (if not most) women assert power and authority in their lives, in their relationships, in their social interactions.

    A woman between the ages of 17 to 29 has immense power in the sexual marketplace. The problem is that most women aren’t taught how to use it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    There will be a lot of guys who choose to go the casual route through their 30′s. That’s their choice. True, women have the luxury of being able to try out casual sex young even if they’re social retarded. Most men don’t have that luxury. And once they do learn how to get it, many will want to make up for lost time. Understandable.

    Getting game is about becoming a strong and independent man with high value. Even aside from its use in getting a guy laid or into a relationship, getting game helps guys be the men they’ve always wanted to be.

  • deti

    Jesus M:

    You are a true outlier.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    That’s true. Some men will go the casual sex route and never look back. Or only look back once they get older and are ready to get married. Some women do that too.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    deti,

    I may be an outlier, but I know many more like me. Most guys I know want to have a family one day, if they don’t already have one. And not because of easy access to sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti, @Jesus

      I may be an outlier, but I know many more like me. Most guys I know want to have a family one day, if they don’t already have one. And not because of easy access to sex.

      I believe that Jesus is only an outlier in the manosphere, and not even the whole manosphere. Most guys looking to get some game share his views, I think. He is an outlier among the MRA crowd, for sure.

  • deti

    I disagree with this statement from Anna:

    “Casual sex is not a privilege for women.”

    This society has gone out of its way to create an entire legal, social, and cultural framework to confer the privilege of casual sex upon women.

    Just look around you, Anna: SATC. EPL. “Cougartown”. “Friends with Benefits.” No-fault divorce tilting the legal playing field toward women and which actively destroys the financial lives of men. Easy access to cheap, safe, and reliable birth control under the total control of the woman. Slutwalks. A culture which permits the absolute excoriation and political evisceration of anyone who suggests that perhaps, maybe, women could protect themselves by not dressing like whores.

    A religious culture (i.e. mainstream Churchianity) which

    1. looks the other way at frivolous EPL-style divorce

    2. exults in the fact that “only” 38% of its devotees divorce

    3. does nothing to confront or even feebly condemn the chaotic wasteland that is the urban SMP, existing in thousands of cities with populations over 50,000

    4. created and perpetuates the frauds of the “reformed slut” and the “born-again virgin”

    5. shames men who refuse to marry “reformed sluts” and “born again virgins”

    6. shames men who refuse to tolerate poor wife behavior

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This society has gone out of its way to create an entire legal, social, and cultural framework to confer the privilege of casual sex upon women.

      And many women decline the privilege.

  • Emily

    >> This society has gone out of its way to create an entire legal, social, and cultural framework to confer the privilege of casual sex upon women.

    I agree with this, but the irony is that (IMO) most women don’t want it. I think there’s a small minority of women who are able to have no-strings-attached casual sex, and they have unfortunately been the loudest.

    I think a lot of girls buy into this “sex positive” culture and try to trick themselves into thinking that they can have sex like a man, only to get burned by it. A lot of girls also get the idea that they can trick a guy into being their boyfriend by pretending that they only want casual sex but then trying to turn a hook up into a relationship. (Which I agree is a very stupid thing to do btw.)

    This is why today’s generation of feminists need to stop pretending that they speak for all women.

  • Escoffier

    deti, it’s quite possible that I am out of touch (please insert your own joke here) but I just don’t see evidence of 4 & 5. Especially 5.

    The culture does not perpetuate the “reformed slut”. Rather, it just refuses to talk about slutdom at all. It refuses to make any moral distinction. It does, I agree, shame people who look down on sluts, with a finger-wagging “how dare you judge” message. But that’s not really the same thing.

    On the margins, there have been a small number of books (e.g., “Thrill of the Chaste”) that celebrate an individual’s decision to stop being a slut. And some reviewers have praised that. But it seems senisble enough to me. If someone was behaving very badly and stops, that’s a good thing, no?

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    PARKER V PARKER

    The purpose of this comment is to explain this decision. It has been bandied about as creating some “rule” requiring a husband to challenge paternity within 1 year or be barred. While that is what actually happened, Parker (wish I could underline-pretend) did not create any rule. The rule applied is Florida’s version of Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 54 (b) pertaining to relief from judgments. In order to understand Parker, we must examine the distinction between “extrinsic” and “intrinsic” fraud. I begin with the former.

    “Extrinsic” fraud (sometimes alluded to as “fraud upon the court”) is conduct which prevents a party from trying an issue before the court. Let’s say your considering a divorce you and your husband have property in Guatemala. You call me to get an opinion on whether the asset is part of the marital estate and thus 1/2 yours. Unbeknownst to you, your husband has already contacted me and bribed me into convincing you that property outside the U.S. is never community, and further convincing you not to even mention it to the attorney you hire. You go to court, get judgment, and then find out you were screwed. In that instance, you were prevented from even presenting the issue to the court, and the court never considered it. This is extrinsic fraud; you are entitled to attack the judgement and there is no time bar because it is an independent action.

    “Intrinsic fraud” is the presentation of misleading information on an issue before the court that was tried or COULD (remember that) have been tried. Same facts as above, but your new attorney is smart and discovers the Guatemala property. Your husband presents a false deed showing that the property belongs to his mother, was not purchased with community assets and thus you are ixnay. The parties present evidence, testimony and argument. The court rules that the land is not part of the community. Intrinsic fraud has been committed-false evidence was presented to the court . Because it could have been raised as an issue in the case (the legitimacy of the document) , and is thus intrinsic to the action, Florida’s version of 54 (b) gives you 1 year to seek relief from that judgment (remember, an action seeking relief based on extrinsic fraud is independent, not relief from the judgment itself; it is a “collateral” attack in a separate proceeding).

    In Parker, yes the result seemed harsh (I have an editorial later). But Parker was premised upon an earlier decision by the Florida Supreme Court, DeClaire v Yohanan, 453 So.2d 375 (Fla. 1984). In that case the husband submitted false financial statements underestimating his net worth. Judgement was entered. His wife discovered the fraud and attempted to obtain relief. Citing the same rule I’ve just outlined, the Florida S. Ct. said no-you’re screwed. That same rule that screwed her screwed Parker. In Florida, paternity is presumed to be at issue in any proceeding for child support;Parker COULD have raised it. But don’t go citing Parker for the proposition the husbands are getting screwed.

    BTW the Florida legislature legislatively changed the law to address DeClaire, and I read it also just did to reverse Parker. Given the on-going and quasi-equitable nature of divorce proceedings, Parker may win yet. BTW the illegitimate child in Parker was born in 1998; the case was decided in 2007. So Parker has 9 years of child support. I have something to say there, about a man raising a child 9 years. Not now.

    So, are straight on this? No new law in Parker. In fact, based on precedent which is very old. Before Florida adopted the federal rules, there was NO RELIEF FROM INTRINSIC FRAUD! Know why-’cuz we want and end to litigation. Final judgments are that. you had your chance to prove your case-tough shit. A man was executed not too long ago on this principle,more or less. Under 54 (b), you’ve got one year to attack on the basis that false information was presented to the court. BTW don’t forget you’ve had pretrial discovery too.

    So, men aren’t getting screwed, or at the very least Parker does not stand for that proposition. We can obtain relief through our legislatures if we get pissed off enough. God is in His heaven, Munson is at his keyboard-so it’s a draw.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      Thank you for explaining the Parker case. I’ve learned that non-lawyers sharing cases is a tricky business. In my recent research on divorce, I have been reading codes, statutes and some cases, and honestly, it’s beyond me. I am not capable of interpreting this information. I will no longer take the word of anyone sharing stories without that legal knowledge, nor believe and repeat anything I read on a website that has a particular POV about divorce. I have found it very, very difficult to get at the truth in many of these cases.

      One thing I did read was that the judge in the Parker case was sickened by the outcome, which was dictated by law. He urged that the law be changed.

  • Mike

    MikeC 163
    >I think for some women, the act of getting married, getting all dressed up in the pretty dress with all eyes on her while the guy waits for her is the ultimate act of validation. It is like the combination meth/crack high of validation. But then the next day starts the messy reality of day to day living as a married couple.

    +1

    Sadly, it’s all i can relate to. I knew early on that she was waiting for an engagement ring. Her previous 4yr+ LTR failed to conjure one up which was one reason why she left, tho her previous before that did pony up, but the ring was not the type she wanted (and he had all the personality of cardboard, and he was only chosen as a means of revenge on her previous bf) so she put him to the curb. Basically the neon sign above her said ‘Propose within a year or im gone’.

    Our small simple wedding started to balloon into something extravagant, at the finest reception hall, etc.. and she was so into being a bride, tho she always qualified it was ‘our’ day and tried to make me more responsible for items on the wedding checklist. Yet whenever we talked in public amongst friends the joke was that all i had to do was rent a tux and show up. I never once took it as that day being ‘all eyes on me’. Weddings and wedding hysteria is the greatest form of vanity for vain women types.

    They are the center of attention.
    They must look at their most stunning and be the most beautiful prize amongst other women. Bridesmaids traditionally wore awful outfits to make sure they didn’t usurp the brides attention.
    They receive validation about their looks from everyone, from their awesome hairdo’s, makeup, and of course their perfect dress choice.
    Everything must proceed according to their laid out plan for perfection

    And of course, there’s me in my rented tux.

    And yeah, after the awesome honeymoon, we came home to unpack, do laundry, vaccuum, do the dishes, pay bills, make lunch for the next day and prepare to go to work. Every day after the wedding was just downhill in her eyes. The wedding was the goal, not the life afterwards. Once all the benefits were exhausted it was time to cast the vows aside and pull the ol’ “im love you but im not in love with you line.”

    Translated… ‘id still like to be your friend, but will never let you express love for me, touch me or make love to me while i build my career at your expense and shack up with someone else down the road. taa!’

  • Mike

    ^238 above is mine. typed wrong email addy.

  • deti

    Emily:

    I wasn’t talking about sex positive feminism. I’m talking about a culture and an environment that removes all the constraints on female sexual behavior. If we’re talking about women who want to marry someday, I don’t think that is a good thing.

    We’re talking about a culture that tells women explicitly that
    1. there are no differences between men and women;

    2. they can have casual sex with no spiritual, psychological or medical consequences

    3. they are entitled to whatever they want, when they want it. She should get whatever she wants from her hookups, relationships and marriage(s).

    4. men of suitable attractiveness (i.e. SATC superalpha “Mr. Big”) will always be there to marry them when they are ready to step off the carousel/grow weary of their careers (cf. Bolick, Kate, “All the Single Ladies”).

  • Chipps

    “This is why today’s generation of feminists need to stop pretending that they speak for all women.”

    This is what I hate about feminist. Their always talking about women, women, women. I want to be like “NO! Correction, women like you! Leave the rest of us out of it.”

    But their sex positive message means nothing if everyone isn’t doing it. Are there actual stats on how many women engage in casual sex or are sex positive?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chipps

      Welcome.

      Are there actual stats on how many women engage in casual sex or are sex positive?

      I think the number of people who identify as sex-positive feminists is extremely low. Maybe 5%. Many of them are not heterosexual.

      I don’t have any idea how many women have ever had casual sex – around 35-40% of women in college are virgins, and that number obviously goes down as they age – I think it’s 12% at age 26. My own estimate is that approximately 20% of women are promiscuous.

  • GudEnuf

    Susan: I find that a rather shocking statement, and I’m anything but sure about it. What is your evidence for this claim?

    38% of pregnancies today are unplanned.

    http://www.arhp.org/publications-and-resources/contraception-journal/september-2008

    42,000 babies were born out of wedlock in Britain in 1920. During that time, about 90,000 babies were born per year in Britain. Some of the legitimate babies were probably unintentional too, so it seems reasonable to guess that the majority of pregnancies were unintentional.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=4LYqAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA436&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2TNZ-Pp9wDnSyP3wVFzt12-x5MzQ&ci=528%2C860%2C429%2C248&edge=0

    This is a very limited context, though.

  • Escoffier

    Britain had a 50% illegitimacy rate in 1920? Really? That stat sounds impossible to me.

  • Jhane Sez

    “I’m shocked at the casual way women suggest breaking off my engagement. How is stomping on a young-man’s heart a casual decision? I love my fiance; I can’t toss my feelings aside to chase rainbows. It’s like these women don’t realize men have feelings, and can get hurt.”

    @Butterfly Flower…

    But you are in love and happy, looking forward to building a life with your fiance.

    The chicks that I had a chance to ask about this directly all started with the fact that they weren’t happy and it only got worse.

    They were also usually in the opposite position of people pushing them to stay engaged, pick a date, plan a wedding, give it 6 months… so that she could at least say she was married or with the idea of if it doesn’t work out she could divorce.

    As I said earlier I think these situations exist as a result of people ignoring the elephant in the room.

    One guy we know, got engaged to a girl who asked that the first ring he offered wasn’t clear enough, and then a few weeks later ‘they’ decided that since the price difference wasn’t that great maybe a slightly bigger stone with a different setting… this should have been a HUGE red flag.

    But friends and family just chalked it up to him not having the same level of style and it was an investment after all… I think people didn’t see it as a character flaw because they didn’t want to.

    I’m a big fan of pre-marital counseling… my sister is getting married next month and she won’t go, because she doesn’t want to any one to tell her that they may have differences that they should discuss and iron out before marriage.

    I see this a lot… and I find it interesting that those who are apprehensive about marriage don’t have it on their list of things to do before you say I do.

    Best wishes on your upcoming nuptials ~JS

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “What do you mean by lack of social accountability? Can you give an example?”

    Woman decides she’s “bored,” ditches her husband, gets a huge book deal and goes on Oprah.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Anna
    “So a young guy guy learning game is likely to use it to get casual sex for some time.”

    That’s exactly what I was thinking, thanks for spelling it out. Guys learning “game” or whatever will no longer have the incentive to be monogamous. How is that going to bring about more commitment? Women can stop sleeping with players anytime they want. That doesn’t require a massive change in men’s behavior.

    If something does more harm than good, I don’t see any reason to advocate it, except maybe in very specific situations.

  • Mike

    Just1X #200

    +1

    I want to see them choke on that blood.

  • Ted D

    ““No guy has ever said, Wow, look at the delayed-gratification and thriftiness on her!”

    I did.”

    *raises hand – The first thing I usually think is “wow that woman is kinda hot/attractive/etc”. Not long after chatting her up, the next thought is “does she have character?” And guess what, looking for a woman that can delay gratification and spend wisely is part of that. I wouldn’t even consider a next date if I found her character to be lacking.

    Jesus M. – I started thinking about getting married and starting a family when I was in high school. Probably around 10th grade when I met and started dating my first LT girlfriend. Before that it had occurred to me, but I didn’t see a point in really thinking about it until a woman was in the picture. From then on, every woman I’ve spent any amount of time with was in the running for the role of wife.

    I’ve said many times that I have ALWAYS considered my future wife and family when making important decisions in my life. I did so even when I wasn’t in a LTR, because I considered it MY responsibility to arrive at the alter as the best possible husband I could be. It just turns out that what I thought was being the best husband was far short of the mark and only about half of the story. No one ever told me that the best way to be a great husband is to simply be the best man you can be. I didn’t even realize until way too late that sometimes being a great husband means taking care of MY OWN needs first.

    And honestly realizing it made me bitter for awhile. I chose to invest in a career based on job security and income, not what I like and/or wanted to do. Why? Because I knew that my income would be important to my wife and children someday. So I was a beta even when I wasn’t in a relationship, because I was brought up to believe it was my task to get a good job and provide for my family. I was never told to strive for myself, it was always for my future family.

  • Emily

    >> I wasn’t talking about sex positive feminism. I’m talking about a culture and an environment that removes all the constraints on female sexual behavior.

    I’d argue that the two are very closely linked. I agree with what you’re saying though.

  • Mike

    Just1X #200

    Also had a conversation months ago on a dating site blog (guy gives some great advice to women on why they can’t get men by telling them the guys perspective) about sperm snatchers and the subject of male birth control. Here’s a link to my first comment in the post.

    http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/invasion-of-the-sperm-snatchers/#comment-202298

    http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/04/ff_vasectomy/all/1

    You can see the wired.com link in that post about extremely easy reversible vasectomies. You can see how much ‘disdain’ there was and actual pushback to the possibility of male birth control, because they were so damn scared of losing their monopoly on reproductive rights.

    Some manosphere sites term a men’s pill as a day of reckoning/Armageddon for everything that’s taken place since the invention of the pill and all the rights afforded to women’s reproduction to the exclusion of men.

  • Jonny

    @Renee “Marriage isn’t about kids. If two people who have no desire to have kids are both happy, in a good place mentally/emotionally/etc., in love, compatible, etc., then I don’t see a reason why they shouldn’t marry.”

    I see no reason why they should marry as well. Why not cohabitate? Marriage between 2 people without kids is a half-baked marriage. Certainly, it will be meaningful to those who participate, but the man bears the risk.

    My advice is mostly to men, which was why I was wondering why you responded. It is clear that more and more women want to marry with no promise of kids. What the heck is up with that? Women without kids will hardly ever tap their mothering instincts. Their nuturing behavior is cut off. Is that what they want? It is a sad existence.

  • Mike C

    Munson,

    You’ve done a fine job there explaining the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic fraud so that a legal moron like myself can understand it.

    Question. What is the purpose of the legal system? In my perhaps naive idealism, I would think it is to provide JUSTICE. I find the concept of limitations on intrinsic fraud in direct opposition to goal of maximizing justice. I can understand the desire to “put an issue to bed” but maybe something like 10-20 years is more appropriate than 1 year. The limitation on intrinsic fraud to say something like only a year seems a de facto reward to someone who has simply been very effective in hiding their fraud, and where it may take more time for the truth to come out. I find the idea of executing a man while disregarding some item of potential intrinsic fraud to be abhorrent.

    In the case of paternity fraud, you’ve got a situation where the vast majority of men (the blue-pillers) are not willing or capable to consider what *some* women are capable of (pedestalizing). The vast majority of men don’t seriously entertain the notion that they married a cheating whore who is engaged in daily deception. Many men may not learn the truth of the matter until some indeterminate time down the road by the strangest of circumstances.

    I found out my wife was cheating (after she had already left me) in a very strange way. I happened to be in the grocery store (I remember it was Election day) and I was walking down one of the aisles, when one of her co-workers who had been over our place saw me. She knew my ex had left me, and asked how I was doing. We were talking, and finally she said “Hey, I’ve got to tell you something” and then spilled the beans about my ex and the co-worker she was cheating on me with. Had I not run into her in the grocery store, would I have ever known? Would I have found out later some other way? Who knows? We didn’t have kids so it is a moot point, but I find it ludicrous that she may have some expiration date for getting away with fraud simply because I was too naive to consider the really nasty stuff that no guy thinks a woman he married is likely capable of.

    So I get the whole intrinsic fraud thing. I just think it is stupid. And I understand that on a technicality basis, the Parker thing is about intrinsic fraud, NOT paternity fraud specifically per se, but in this case it is de facto about paternity fraud, and taking the lawyer cap off with associated legalese the intrinsic fraud versus paternity fraud is really a distinction without a difference.

    In my book, what is right and just trumps what is legal. This is way OT, but I am an advocate and have given money in the past to FIJA

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fully_Informed_Jury_Association

    Very often in my view, the last step before a miscarriage of justice takes place is a jury of regular people basically saying law X is a total crock of shit

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    The problems have been laid out plainly enough. Here are the things women can do practively to minimize them.

    1) Don’t drink alcohol, smoke anything, do any drugs, or partake of the partying lifestyle.

    2) Do not engage in sexual activity with men outside of serious, long-term relationships.

    3) Save up, live frugally, pay off loans as much as possible, and do not incur any credit card debt.

    4) Get good at cooking, cleaning and general housekeeping, and make these a habit.

    5) Learn to enjoy a major male-oriented hobby, such as sports, video games, shooting, poker, etc.

    6) Stop indulging in fantasies of a big diamond ring, a big dream wedding, and a big, extravant honeymoon. Plan for a simple band, a courthouse wedding, and save up for a nest egg.

    7) Be humble, practice gratitude, exercise willpower, avoid drama, let go of entitled attitudes and behaviors, see things from the male perspective, and strive to be a mature, emotionally-healthy adult.

    Demonstrate these qualities to men. It won’t be guaranteed to make them want to marry you, but a quality man will notice quality in a woman. If this list seems too far-fetched, it’s not. I’ve lived it, and my husband and I tell each other all the time how happy we are to be married to each other.

  • Just1X

    @Mike

    gotta love the attitudes that those special ‘ladies’.

    they absolutely can’t see any point of view than their own. ‘I’ want to have a baby and anything I do to achieve it is okay…that is hamsterisation at its clearest.

    Stealing sperm from a condom, is okay is it? I mean she’s not going to claim money from him, so that’s okay (WTF?). And if she changes her mind and takes him to court, well what did he expect, getting her pregnant like that?

  • deti

    Esco 236:

    “The culture does not perpetuate the “reformed slut”. Rather, it just refuses to talk about slutdom at all. It refuses to make any moral distinction. It does, I agree, shame people who look down on sluts, with a finger-wagging “how dare you judge” message. But that’s not really the same thing.”
    ****
    “If someone was behaving very badly and stops, that’s a good thing, no?”

    No question about it: if a slut stops sleeping around, that is a good thing. But there’s more to it than that.

    The secular culture at large doesn’t talk about “reformed sluts”. But the “reformed slut” and “born again virgin” concepts are gaining lots of traction in Churchianity. Yes, it is good that a slut stops doing the things that makes her a slut. It certainly doesn’t damage her partner count further.

    But the dangerous part of the “reformed slut/born again virgin” meme is it ignores the natural consequences of sluts’ pasts, and in fact tells sluts they don’t have to bear those consequences. It tells sluts that they can do whatever they want, and then when they are tired of it or adverse consequences come crashing down, the Church will fix it as if it had never happened. The Church will even supply a steady stream of Christian men ready to wife them up.

    They are told in essence “all you have to do is come to Jesus (Christ, not Mahoney), attend church, and your past is wiped clean! You didn’t sleep with those 30 guys, you will be cured of HPV, it is as if that abortion never happened at all, you will be ready for marriage and motherhood and the house with the picket fence.” It is strongly implied or said outright that they will be relieved of all natural consequences of their past actions. I think this is dangerous and misleading.

    Repentance starts a former slut on a new life, but it doesn’t erase or reduce partner counts. It doesn’t cure STDs. It doesn’t rewrite history. Also, it’s not a one shot deal; it’s a completely new way of life. That has to be learned, and that’s a process. Once you stop your slutting it up, you have to live that out every day. Sometimes it means working through things; getting counseling, discarding damaging friends and unhealthy relationships.

    They are not told to examine WHY they did these things in the first place. They are not told to get physicals or gynecological exams. They are not told they might have fertility problems or that they might be too old to conceive. They are not told about the realities of male/female attraction, hypergamy, or the importance of physical appearance to women’s ability to attract men. They are not told that most men will find them unsuitable for marriage because of their pasts. No, they are only endlessly “affirmed” and “validated” and told that “God has a special plan” for them and “God has prepared a husband/soulmate” just for them, and all they have to do is keep on attending church and they will never, ever have to suffer any consequences.

  • Malia

    I can understand the desire to “put an issue to bed” but maybe something like 10-20 years is more appropriate than 1 year.

    In trying to find justice in one particular issue, you’re advocating opening a huge Pandora’s box that has implications far wider greater than this one issue. All civil issues have a time limit and to argue that 10-20 years is more appropriate also has other consequences you may not forsee. For example, what if 10-20 years after moving out of a rental property the landlord could pursue you in a court for an action? Would you have any records or evidence? Would you have anything other than a failing memory? That could even leave someone open to malicious lawsuits with one party intending to hold off for 10-20 years hoping the other party forgets or doesn’t keep records.

    That’s why it’s hard to get with some of the manosphere claims because many of the solutions are simply… unreasonable. If false paternity is such a huge fear, then every man can simply have a paternity test. Once the child is born, it’s just as much “his” child as hers and he can have a paternity test whenever he wants.

    Legislating it is unnecessary because it’s already available, legislating it is an attempt to “get back at” this feminist monolith while taking non-feminists women as casualties.

    Fight the battle with who it’s with.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    That should read “extravagant honeymoon” in the above post.

    Also, in the age of the obesity epidemic, a girl who can properly delay gratification is generally not overweight. She might not be Angelina Jolie hot, but she’ll keep herself in shape. I think men intuitively understand this. If you’re a girl who does plan for the long-term but can lose a few extra pounds, get to it. :P

  • Mike

    @Deti 254

    But the dangerous part of the “reformed slut/born again virgin” meme is it ignores the natural consequences of sluts’ pasts, and in fact tells sluts they don’t have to bear those consequences. It tells sluts that they can do whatever they want, and then when they are tired of it or adverse consequences come crashing down, the Church will fix it as if it had never happened.

    I find that Christianity in general is very fond of giving a pass. After all, the whole point of going to confession is to tell the priest you’ve been beating your wife/sleeping around on your husband for the last 3 months, and with 2 hail mary’s and 1 our father, your dirt is washed off and you are now pure for entry through the pearly gates.

    If you know you the car wash is coming up down the road, you don’t mind going off road for a while and getting a little dirty. Consequences? What consequences.. i’m pure as the driven snow.

  • Mike

    http://www.care2.com/causes/would-mandatory-paternity-tests-protect-children.html

    I love the language in some of these quotes:

    “Women, who get pregnant while having an affair will be “punished” for doing so in all cases.”
    - Your point?

    ” Men, however, who get a woman pregnant while having an affair will only be “punished” for doing so if there is a way to track them down and test them in order to obtain a match.”
    - Good reason not to have an affair eh’

    “Mandatory paternity testing would likely result in more women being left to raise a baby on their own, something that is all too prevalent already without paternity testing.”
    - Only if they’re cuckolding bitches.

    And the way the article finishes with poo pooing the idea… this is a PR battle that just can’t be won. They really try hard by going to Wikipedia to site that men have affairs more than women, but i think it’s debatable.

    Apparently, you can get paternity done 12 weeks in, non invasive. Along with getting an accurate medical history of the child, I can’t see why anyone would argue against it, unless they had an agenda to continue letting some men get hoodwinked.

  • Mike C

    Guys learning “game” or whatever ***will no longer have the incentive to be monogamous***. How is that going to bring about more commitment?

    This isn’t true. This is ONLY true if the ONLY thing a woman brings to a monogamous relationship is sex/pussy. I’m not going to propose and marry my GF because of the sex. I can get sex from plenty of other “sex providers/ladder 2 girls”. And truth be told, the level of pure/raw sexual satisfaction would probably be just as fulfilling with a variety of 6s compared to the same higher ranked woman forever (there is a reason the expression “show me a hot girl and I’ll show you a guy tired of fucking her” exists). Blunt, yes.

    But there is a ton of other stuff I am getting in a monogamous commitment that I could NOT get going the casual sex route.

    I point this out because I think it is a COLOSSAL MISTAKE to head down this road of sexual exchange for monogamy. Firstly, it won’t work, and it doesn’t even apply to attractive men. The answer is for women to bring alot more to the table then being a vagina provider. Both Deti and BB have written extensively on this with great accuracy.

  • deti

    Mike 257:

    Yes. The mainstream church is doing society at large, and sluts in particular, a disservice by feeding them misleading messages about what it means to “reform”.

    This is something that women wanting to marry need to grok, in my opinion. A slut who has not turned away from the conduct (not just stopped it, but TURNED AWAY) hasn’t addressed it fully. Men are really anxious about this. Why? Because a woman with a lot of experience is less likely to be attracted to, stay with, and be satisfied with, one man. She’s likely to compare her husband to her previous partners, either consciously or subconsciously. If she cheated in the past, she could cheat in the future. All of this could lead to a divorce, with all the financial and emotional consequences.

  • Just1X

    “If false paternity is such a huge fear, then every man can simply have a paternity test.”

    Well, I haven’t checked, but I suspect that asking your pregnant partner for a paternity test is, or will be, defined as domestic violance.

    I mean, how could it not be DV? You are implying that she might have some morality shortfalls…you bastard.

    Seriously, making it mandatory is the only way to get it to happen. Otherwise some mug (male) will always be getting the shitty end of the legal stick. I understand that feminists are okay with that, MRAs are not.

    p.s. I’m not sure that ‘fear’ is the right word, I’d have to go with ‘fucking outrage’ YMMV. I would not be surprised to hear that serious consequences commonly occur when the ‘father’ finds out…I wouldn’t blame him one bit.

  • Malia

    Well, I haven’t checked, but I suspect that asking your pregnant partner for a paternity test is, or will be, defined as domestic violance.

    You’re being melodramatic. And silly. The other parent’s consent is not required for paternity testing. You want to make it a legal issue out of revenge, not necessity.

  • Anna

    @ Emily
    I agree there is a minority of women who can enjoy no strings sex. But I think this also depends on more than whether you are a man/woman. Men who have casual sex/FWBs/ONS are sometimes juggling several women at the same time, they don’t have the energy or time to sit and obsess over one, and with more women available, the focus is taken off each. Whereas the woman only has one FWB and as we know, we are slightly more obsessing and analytical, which causes us to develop feelings (or start this “game” where you wonder who is more into the other). There is also a risk the guy has feelings for someone else (could even be a FWB). If you have feelings for one person, you can easily sleep with another with falling for him/her. The girls I know who’ve had casual partners without developing feelings, have been seeing this guy as a rebound or sth similar – it is not that they don’t have feelings, their feelings are just somewhere else.
    And I must add, the reason this minority of girls is yelling about their rights is simply because they are able to have no strings sex and that there ARE women like them, and I can see it is frustrating for someone to label you as highly emotional when it is not true. And they are primarily yelling about not being written off as freaks. Personally I am a bit more for learning by doing. If you get burnt at a young age you have a pretty valuable experience. It’s just a question of when you learn. My sister is almost 27 and still has a lot of casual sex, she recently got hurt by a guy she thought had more feelings. At that age she should know better, but a previous casual encounter led to a relationship, which is probably why she sees it this way.
    And I must add, I don’t think majority of women wakes up in love after their first night with a guy. It’s when a woman is seeing and sleeping with one guy alone, over time, having great sex that she will fall for him. She didn’t feel that way in the beginning, but after she’s been there once she should see the pattern and start differently next time. If a relationship is what she is looking for, obviously.

    Although the majority of women easier develop feelings from sex and enjoy better sex when in love (myself included), we are not all emotionally similar and we view men differently. Some girls are unbearably hurt when men lust after them but doesn’t love them, walk around afraid of getting used and see men’s sexuality as an evil altogether. I know some of those girls. My best friend gets angry with a man when he has a boner. Being very inexperienced and constantly afraid of becoming a “slut” is part of why she is this way.

  • Just1X

    @Malia

    Melodramatic? moi? ORLY? Check out entry three in the list below (plenty of references to be found via the following link)

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-governance-feminism/australia-launches-the-plan-and-the-end-to-civil-rights/

    “These machinations have now reached the stage of action, and are about to be implemented. They involve, but are by no means limited, to the following:

    The systemic enabling and promotion of child abuse by mothers and other women.
    The Australian government suppression of research that implicates women as child abusers.
    The legal redefinition of domestic violence to include acts such as making purchases without consulting your wife, not listening to your wife or even disciplining your dog.
    The legal redefinition of domestic violence to exclude male victims from that legal definition.
    Arresting and holding men in prison, without bail, on the accusation alone of domestic violence.
    Summarily evicting men from their homes while forcing them to maintain financial responsibility for those homes on nothing more than an accusation from their wives or girlfriends.
    Shifting the burden of proof on domestic violence from the state to the defendant. The accused will be forced to prove he did not commit an act of violence.
    The legal redefinition of rape, and subsequent shift of the burden of proof onto a defendant to prove the he obtained specific kinds of verbal consent for sex.”

  • Just1X

    @Malia,

    and THAT is the kind of shit that mean men shouldn’t even cohabit, let alone marry

  • Just1X

    Oh and I believe that Susan mentioned an article along those issues will be forthcoming. What She writes has a lot of credibility with me, you…well I’d tell you, but you might make a DV call… :)

  • DerHahn

    @Mike C #260

    Thanks for responding to that. I can’t figure out if that guy is just trolling or is really so stuck in white-knightdom that he can’t find his way out.

    I’ve been through two LTRs (marriage, living together) before I started seriously looking at Game. The amazing thing I found is that by looking at what happened in those realationships through Game principles I could see *exactly* where I had made mistakes. Before that I was one if the 91% of guys who just couldn’t figure out why they went through a divorce/breakup.

    Game principles are absolutely required for a guy to hang in any kind of male/female relationship these days simply for the fact that most women have been so brainwashed by feminist messaging that they barely understand their own thought processes. I know I am doing way better in my current relationship than I would be otherwise even though I’m far from a master of either Game or aspiring to be a ‘player’. It is almost scary how the words and actions of my FWB girl can be mapped to her instincts, and I know she is often totally unaware of *why* she feels the way she does.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    And I must add, I don’t think majority of women wakes up in love after their first night with a guy. It’s when a woman is seeing and sleeping with one guy alone, over time, having great sex that she will fall for him.

    I’m only 28, but maybe I’m just old-fashioned. There was a time (unless it was a myth) that people began by having feelings for each other, and then moved on to sex. That seems to make a lot more sense then the way it plays out now.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    deti,

    Not sure if it’s the fact that I’m in a different place now or what, but your views seemed more tainted with MRA koolaid now than back in July when I first started hanging around. I mean, you always had a sort of business-like view of relationships that seemed strangely devoid of warmth, but it seems to have intensified since then.

  • J

    Female hostility to the idea of the male birth control pill is easy to explain. Women want and demand a monopoly on reproduction.

    I really don’t think many women feel hostile toward the idea of male birth control. I do know however that if I were young and single, I wouldn’t throw away my birth control because there was now a male pill. I wouldn’t want to place my fate in the hands of some guy who may be lying about being on it or less careful with it then I’d like.

    I find the manosphere fear of “sperm-stealing” to be somewhat overblown. I also think the sphere underestimates the pain an unwanted pregnancy can inflict on a woman. Since I would have been the one who had to either abort or carry an unwanted pregnancy,or give up or rise an out of wedlock child, I was never crazy about the idea of trusting a man to be responsible for contaception. That’s a lot of trust to hand over to someone who primary motivation may be just to get laid.

  • BroHamlet

    @Babydoll

    What do you mean by lack of social accountability? Can you give an example? I am trying to about this issue – it makes me sad that so many here seem to be put off the idea of marriage.

    The issue is that most women don’t know their true motivations and what really attracts them. Not what society says morally SHOULD attract them or what society says the reasons for their actions are. So in the end true knowledge of self is very hard to come by in women these days. If nobody encourages you to examine yourself, most of the time, you won’t, especially if there’s always someone there to assure you that nothing is your fault. A few examples:

    1) Girl is in her 20′s and looks cute. Plenty of guys chat her up and she accepts dates with some of them. Still, she repeatedly flakes on most of those guys except for the most “alpha” of them, who probably won’t date her long term anyway. She’s been socialized to believe that it’s the guy’s job to make her feel like honoring a commitment she’s made, so if she just doesn’t feel like it, any disrespect that they might feel is irrelevant (their fault). Now she’s about to turn 30. She’s not as cute as before. Fewer dudes are chatting her up, and definitely fewer “alphas” that she liked so much earlier on. All of a sudden, she’s wondering “where are all the good men?” and finds a wide variety of women in the media writing exactly the same thing and challenging men to “man up” to correct the situation. She believes she can blame men for her situation, and learns nothing about herself or the reality of how she got to where she is in the dating landscape.

    2) Girl marries guy, guy acts in a socially-approved “nice” way and she finds she can’t stand him after a while, although she doesn’t completely know why. She divorces him thanks to media outlets that tell her she has no obligation to stay in a situation she’s not happy with, and it must be someone else’s fault if she’s not happy.And we’re not talking about how she got custody of the kids by default and alimony. Thus, no introspection or learning about herself has occurred because she was never held accountable by society (socially accountable).

    I could list several more examples in this same vein, but I don’t have time. Notice the trend. In both cases, the girl is doing what she believes is socially acceptable, and when she gets a negative result, society is also offering her a convenient mental out to avoid feeling like it’s her problem. No accountability means nothing can be learned.

    Badger a real-life example of number 2:

    Woman decides she’s “bored,” ditches her husband, gets a huge book deal and goes on Oprah.

  • BroHamlet

    @Babydoll

    End of the last post should have read “Badger pointed to a real-life example of number 2″

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Women recognized men, interested in children, amazingly precisely, and also pointed to men with highest level of testosterone. They chose men, who love children, for long relationships, and those who were more masculine – for short-term.

    Still not comfortable with this. I wouldn’t want to be long term material for a girl who’d go elsewhere for a short-term fling. Not sure how I’d be pegged in a picture, but I think I’d be unhappy either way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      Still not comfortable with this. I wouldn’t want to be long term material for a girl who’d go elsewhere for a short-term fling. Not sure how I’d be pegged in a picture, but I think I’d be unhappy either way.

      I know. It sucks. That’s the same concept behind the finding that women want lower T men 26 days a month and high T guys when they’re ovulating. These are the vestiges (slow to disappear) from a much earlier set of conditions. Our world changes rapidly, but our brains haven’t really changed in 100,000 years.

  • Anna

    @ Jesus,
    I dunno, it takes time for me to develop strong feelings for someone, it’s not like a 3 or 4 dates kind of thing. I have to really like a guy before I go to bed with him, but that’s usually just a matter of compatibility and mutual attraction. It’s either there or not from quite early on – I don’t “take the time to become friends so we can fall in love”. I’ll wait until a few dates has gone by, but that’s just to say I’m not easy. If I say yes to a date 2 I already like him a lot. I could be the exception here, but I know plenty of girls who feel this way, unless they think “sensible, not passionate” about a guy.
    As women fall harder for someone from sex, it also means that there is a certain missing thing that falls into place after sex. You fall for a guy in a way you couldn’t unless you had slept together. Now I am aware some wait until marriage for sex, but I don’t get what that’s about at all and really don’t associate with them to be honest.

  • tvmunson

    #252 Mike C

    That’s a very broad question. I’ll do my best.

    Yes, the law is there to promote justice. But that is achieved through process, a process that entails many other considerations beyond the simple search for truth. Sometimes, frankly, that process defeats the absolute justice you are referring to. For example, the 4th Amendment protects our rights to be secure in our homes. That means the police need to have an articulable basis for searching a home.The police fail to get a warrant; they find evidence that proves the homeowner raped and murdered a little girl. But because of that violation a murderer goes free, and can murder again. The process that protects our rights to be secure in our homes protected him from the consequences of committing a heinous crime.

    “Beyond a reasonable doubt” is also part of the process of justice. In most cases, a jury will tell you “yeah, the guy probably did it-but I was not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt”. A killer, rapist, robber, dope seller goes free. Should we lower the standard, say to the civil one whic is “preponderance of the evidence” which translates into “more probable than not”? “If you the jury having weighed the evidence are convinced that it is more probable than not that the defendant committed the crime charged in count 1 of the indictment, you must enter a verdict of guilty.” How would you like that charge read to a jury in a case where you are accused of sexually molesting your daughter’s 6 year old friend, and she took the stand and pointed directly at you and said you had done it, and in fact you had not? Her dad would be screaming for justice too-he’s want to kill you. But he’d let the inmates on the prison yard take care of that.

    The opening scene of “The Godfather” concisely presents the dilemma. The funeral director’s daughter has been brutally beaten by 2 boys. They’d gone to criminal court, but the boy had clean records, had not sexually touched her (the judge mentions this in the book) they’re from nice families and, impliedly, the girl is Sicilian-so tap on the wrist. Don Corleone tells him you’ve had your justice, but then relents. The director wants them killed, but Corleone refuses and tells Clemenza to handle it(actually more problematic to beat them than kill them, at least from Clemenza’s). In the book, Clemenza hands it off to Pauli, the kid who gets whacked in the back of the head in the movie. In the book, he gets two loan shark boxers to beat the boys within an inch of their lives. Good, satisfying Godfather justice. Until the Godfather calls. In the book, the director has no idea what he wants, imagines all sorts of scenarios and regrets to God his pact with Don Vito. Turns out,it’s to take care of Sonny’s body.But the point is made-take The Godfather’s justice, you must do his bidding.

    So everything worked out-in “The Godfather” . But what about “The Ox Bow Incident”? A report is made that a rancher has been savagely murdered. Rumors circulate, ultimately accepted as fact, that 3 men are responsible. A posse is formed, they head out and find 3 men. In an excruciating narrative the 3 plead for their lives, proclaim their innocence-to no avail. They are allowed to write last letters, and one, the leader of the 3, wrttes to his wife and children, and in part mentions certain kindnesses shown to him by the protagonist who is telling the story. They are hanged. The posse arrive home in the clear blue dawn to discover the rancher is not dead, in fact is enjoying very good health. There appears to have been no basis whatsoever for the rumor. The last thing I remember about the book is that one of the posse, the meanest, most quick to judge and hang of them all, kills himself.

    Rule of law, process, procedure-all are designed to and do slow things down, to make sure we’re careful, deliberate,that what we do is dne wth “due process”, and also to protect other rights we deem self-evident. Vengeance is wedded to criminal law as lust to marriage; both are tempered in the institutions sanctioning them. The process that deprives of The Godfather’s justice assists us in avoiding The Ox Bow’s.

  • Anna

    @ Jesus
    “I wouldn’t want to be long term material for a girl who’d go elsewhere for a short-term fling.”

    Change “guy” for girl and you’ll be most women! And see why sluts is a problem.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    Okay. I’m not saying that you should be willing to commit to a person for life before having sex. I’m just saying that it makes sense to care a bit about a person first, know something about him, trust him, enjoy his personality, want to make him happy, etc…

  • Stingray

    Still not comfortable with this. I wouldn’t want to be long term material for a girl who’d go elsewhere for a short-term fling. Not sure how I’d be pegged in a picture, but I think I’d be unhappy either way.

    The key is to be the guy who is long term material and the guy woman want for a long term fling. It is possible to be both. But to be this, you really have to screen for woman who is long term material as well (though, I do realize after reading your comments that you realize this).

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Stingray,

    Yea, that’s been my strategy. I don’t feel like my girlfriend would’ve turned me away for someone else if she were looking for something short-term. I’m pretty sure that she’s not a “short-term” type, anyway.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    Hollenhund said:

    Female hostility to the idea of the male birth control pill is easy to explain. Women want and demand a monopoly on reproduction.

    You said:

    Sorry, but that statement is hardly one I would swallow, and objecting to it does not constitute gnashing of teeth.

    I agree with you, not because I totally disagree with Hollenhund, but because I don’t think it’s as simple as he says. Feminists and maybe extremely conservative (think Catholic) women are probably the only groups of women that hate the idea of the male pill for the reason that he gave. I think most women are of varied opinion on the subject. I think most normal women (i.e. women that like men) probably would have been either happy or indifferent to a male pill. Most wouldn’t be angry that they couldn’t “oops” guys at will. Most girls are not that excited about getting pregnant at the drop of a hat.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Change “guy” for girl and you’ll be most women! And see why sluts is a problem.

    Oh, I see why sluts are a problem.

  • Anna

    @ Jesus
    “Okay. I’m not saying that you should be willing to commit to a person for life before having sex. ”
    No I know… I didn’t say that either.. Attraction can be good before sex, but not the same as after. I mean exactly what I wrote. I haven’t said anything extreme in either direction.

  • Charm

    @JClimber? Sorry if Im getting that wrong

    Okay, if it was done behind my back there would be nothing I could do about it. Actually if I was a man Id probably secretly send off samples to be tested regardless of how I felt about my wife. But Im just paranoid like that.

  • Mike C

    Susan,

    Question for you on the links (no time to read them now). Was there a negative correlation between the men who strongly desired chldren, and the high testosterone men?

  • J

    I believe that Jesus is only an outlier in the manosphere, and not even the whole manosphere. Most guys looking to get some game share his views, I think. He is an outlier among the MRA crowd, for sure.

    Jesus is more typical of the men I know IRL than then men in the manosphere are. And he sounds like a good guy who in the long run will find a good gal.

  • Charm

    @Jesus 180

    “Still not comfortable with this. I wouldn’t want to be long term material for a girl who’d go elsewhere for a short-term fling. Not sure how I’d be pegged in a picture, but I think I’d be unhappy either way.”

    Couldn’t a woman like me say the same thing about men? You sleep with more slutty or promiscuous women as “fun” or short-term but you want to settle down and get serious with someone like me who has been more chaste because I’d be a better long-term partner?

    Im just as offended. I too wasn’t the first choice.

  • Stingray

    Question for you on the links (no time to read them now). Was there a negative correlation between the men who strongly desired chldren, and the high testosterone men?

    I’d be very curious about this as well. In the past, it was always implied that a high T man wanted lots of children to carry on his good name. Mostly, strapping boys. It was also proof of his high status because he was obviously very virile.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike C,

    It doesn’t state that explicitly, but it’s implied.

  • BroHamlet

    @Anna

    “I wouldn’t want to be long term material for a girl who’d go elsewhere for a short-term fling.”

    Change “guy” for girl and you’ll be most women! And see why sluts is a problem.

    I agree with Jesus, and you need to realize that “guy” and “girl” are not exactly interchangeable here. If a guy enters into a long term arrangement with a girl, it usually at the very least means he’s attracted enough to be interested in having sex with her on a daily basis, along with a host of other qualities that she embodies that make her good to live with. Her value to him is intrinsic to what she is as a person.

    For a guy who is the “long term” option for girls, he runs the risk of raising another man’s child if she goes elsewhere for a fling. By being the long-term option, he is walking a very fine line of being valued for his resources, not his own intrinsic value. That is why you want a girl to get excited about you in a sexual way when she first meets you, even if she can see you as long term material later on. As a man, you want to be valued for what you ARE, to a far greater degree than what you HAVE.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Charm,

    Yes. Yes you could.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Brohamlet,

    IS a bro hamlet like a black Prince of Denmark?

    Either way, +1.

  • Charm

    @Anna 282

    Whats a while for you? For me it could be months before I even notice an attraction to someone. It really depends on the person. its never matter of a few day or a few dates. Ive actually never formally been on a date because once Ive decided I like someone we can simple skip that a start dating. The first person I slept with I knew for about 5 month maybe. The second was my first real relationship and I knew him for about a year before I ever thought of him for a relationship, and then once attraction sparked we didn’t officially get together for another 5 months.

    It blows my mind people have sex after 3-4 dates.

  • Stingray

    As a man, you want to be valued for what you ARE, to a far greater degree than what you HAVE.

    Men want (I would almost go so far as to say need) respect from the women they love.

  • deti

    On paternity testing:

    This is an issue that’s important to men for several reasons. Marriage almost always brings kids. A husband wants to be reasonably sure the kids born to his wife are his. One way to do that is to marry a virgin, who is very unlikely to cheat. Marrying a virgin is a virtual impossibility in this SMP. Marrying a woman who is not a virgin might increase the risks of cheating which in turn increases the risk of cuckolding.

    Cuckolding is to men as rape is to women. Men react viscerally and violently to the possibility that not only has his wife cheated on him and had sex with another man, but also that the other man has impregnated her. Why? Because his wife has not only cheated, but also the other man’s seed was deemed biologically superior to the husband’s. The husband knows he has been completely, fully and finally rejected as a husband and as a man.

    But the wife can conceal cuckoldry by having sex with the husband around the same time she cheats, and thus convince the man he is the father. Some women are capable and guilty of this treachery. Even worse than his biological rejection, the woman has connived her husband into providing for and supporting a child which is not his.

    There are court decisions which have held that the husband/cuckold is still on the hook to support a child which is demonstrably not his and is a product of the wife’s infidelity. The husband proves clearly the child is not his and the wife cheated on him, but he must still pay. The legal reasoning usually is any one or more of the following:

    1. It’s too late now, years after the child’s birth, to contest paternity. Too much time passed.

    2. You had your suspicions but you didn’t act on them. It’s too late now.

    3. You’re the legal father. You expressly agreed to have your name put on the child’s birth certificate as the father. Even if you aren’t the bio-dad, you’re the legal dad, and you represented to everyone around that you were the bio-dad. Sure, your wife lied to you and everyone else, but we can’t do anything about that now. You could have refused to have your name put on the birth certificate. Never mind the fact that your wife was lying right there in the hospital bed and would have a hormonal fit to beat the band if you balked. Your refusal to sign the certificate would be tantamount to accusing your wife of cheating three days after she had just given birth.

    4. It’s not fair to deprive the child of a father (i.e. the father’s money) just because it has now been discovered he’s not really the father. We cannot punish the child for his mother’s fraud.

    The only way to be sure in today’s SMP that a man is the father of his children is paternity testing. It’s probably coming soon to a state near you. Mandatory paternity testing (MPT) as part of the routine battery of blood tests is probably the way to go.

    1. It’s noninvasive. It’s just part of the draw that is always done on every newborn. The putative father can have his blood drawn.

    2. It’s relatively inexpensive.

    3. It avoids the discomfort of the father asking for the test in the presence of the mother or elsewhere. Let’s face it — the mother is going to view any request for paternity testing as tantamount to an accusation of infidelity. (The mother has absolutely NOTHING to fear if she knows that her husband is the only one she’s been sleeping with in the past year. She need worry only if she suspects someone else fathered the child. And let’s face this too — she knows if someone other than her husband sired her offspring. She is the only one who REALLY knows. The paternity test is the equalizer, the game changer.)

    4. It avoids the subterfuge of requiring the father to have it done without the mother’s knowledge.

    When the test results are back, if it shows hubby is daddy, all is well. If it shows hubby is not the daddy, then he can make whatever choices he wants. At his option, he refuses to sign the BC, he is completely relieved of any obligations to support the child. He also has ironclad proof of adultery for the upcoming divorce proceedings. Or, he can forgive, let bygones be bygones, and take the child as his own. Either way, he knows and can make fully informed decisions.

    Expect objections to MPT and shaming language. What we usually see is:

    1. “How dare the husband accuse a NEW MOTHER of cheating when she’s still lying in a hospital bed!” Response: No accusations. It’s mandatory. It has to be done. The mother has nothing to fear if she’s been honest and hubby and daddy are one and the same. She need worry only if she has done something she should not have done.

    2. “The husband has to step up and raise that kid, even if it’s not his, because he’s married to the mom. Otherwise we’ll have no one to support these kids.” Response: It’s not the husband’s problem if he didn’t get to participate in making the kid. Second, whose fault would it be that there is “no one”? Certainly not the cuckolded husband.

    3. “It’s not fair to the child!” Response: It’s not fair to the husband either. Let the wife bear the consequences of the unfairness. If hubby isn’t the father, she knows who is. She ALWAYS knows who is. The interloper /child’s sire must be made to “step up” and support the child, not the cuckold.

    I think MPT is going to be a game changer. It’s likely to reduce cuckolding for sure.

  • Mike C

    Still not comfortable with this. I wouldn’t want to be long term material for a girl who’d go elsewhere for a short-term fling. Not sure how I’d be pegged in a picture, but I think I’d be unhappy either way.

    Your call Jesus, but it seems to me this comment and a few others are reflective of basically waging a mental battle against hundreds of thousands of years of biological evolutionary programming. Seems to me that it is much more sensible to accept the biological drives for what they are, and then filter on how the person actually behaves rather then their mental triggers.

    Rollo had an excellent post titled Tao of Game, here is the pertinent excerpt:

    ***Because my biology is the operative state***, inevitably conviction will be unsustainable to prevent it from manifesting in some form. Some of these are socially acceptable, some of these are socially forgivable, some of these will earn you a life in prison. Sometimes that means the girl gets drunk, he was cute and she bangs the guy in spite of herself. Sometimes it means celibate priests become pedophiles as their only means of sexual expression, and sometimes it means a homosexual comes out of the closet. There are social consequences for all these expressions to varying degree, but again, the motivator is the biological imperative.

    The sexual marketplace as we know it today is the result of biological opportunism intermingling with societal buffers that are in a constant state of flux. Religious convictions and appeals to moralism are no insulation against hypergamy and the sexual marketplace. In fact, often, the more ardent the conviction, the more influential the biological imperative.

    I find it’s a much healthier position to accept a balance between our biologically derived impulses and our higher aspirations. It’s not one or the other. It’s OK to want to fuck just for the sake of fucking – it doesn’t have to be some source of existential meaning. It is as equally unhealthy to convince oneself that self-repressions are virtues as it is to think that unfettered indulgences are freedoms. There is a balance.

    I don’t think there is anything wrong with a girl who is attracted to an alpha or IF YOU PREFER a guy displaying alot of alpha traits. Now if she goes and fucks 30 of them over a 5-year time period, that is a different story.

    I don’t know. To me, it makes sense, to stare human nature right in the face, and accept it as is, rather then conjure up a false reality where there are unicorn people completely immune. YMMV

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike C,

    I’m cool with women being attracted to guys with what you would call alpha traits, since I think I have some of those alpha traits.

    Brohamlet articulated what was behind my comment very well, so I won’t repeat what he said. I’m just saying, that if my woman is “attracted to alpha”, then she damn well better consider me alpha. I think that’s fair, no?

  • BroHamlet

    @Jesus

    Black? Sure. Prince of Denmark? Not so much. Glad someone picked up on that play on words. (Broham + Hamlet = BroHamlet)

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @deti I agree with mandatory paternity testing. When I was pregnant I was tested for HIV as a routine procedure even though the likelihood is very low. They test for so many different things, and adding one more thing should not be a big deal. I’m all for open honesty and transparency.

  • deti

    @ Susan 276

    I’ll admit it when I’m wrong. Apparently a majority of men do want children. I’ll speak only for myself then — I didn’t want kids or even think much about it until I got married.

    I stand corrected.

  • tvmunson

    Cheerful #289
    He may have been sickened by Parker, but so was the judge in DeClaire. The wife got screwed out of a lot of money that was rightfulyl hers based on provable deception. Same principle applied in Parker, slightly slanted because it is in essence the child’s right to support at issue and all the poor bastard (literally) did was be born.. The Florida legislature corrected DeClaire, and is in the process of correcting Parker. The law will be changed, but it is not a “paternity” law as such; it will be a statutorily enacted exception to Florida RCP 54 (b) albeit it may get stuck in its domestic relations law..

    DNA testing has changed things; the law is catching up. Criminal law and paternity will be the 2 leading areas.

    Thank you for appreciating my basic point-the interpretation of case law and statutes is a skill, one acquired through training and ugly hard work. Not everyone does it well and I include lawyers; I need to know a lawyer pretty well before I trust his/her interpretation, and even then I read the case/statute before forming a preliminary opinion.And I read it 4-5 times, study, research and absorb it before I advise a client on it. It’s what we Esq.’s do.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Brohamlet,

    Yea, it’s a cool name.

  • tvmunson

    deti #308

    I was the same. And honestly if my wife hadn’t changed her mind (8 years into the marriage, 11 years into our relationship) we’d have remained childless.

  • Anna

    @ Charm
    Yes this is individual. I have never been in the situation where I go months before discovering attraction or that I suddenly become attracted to a friend. I assume many women feel the way I do, otherwise guys would moan about the term “friendzone” – as in now she sees me as a friend, and there is no way back.
    3-4 dates is perfectly fine for me, after all you get to know a person well over a 4-5 hour evening. I know well enough by then if I want to go to bed with him, the next 3 dates are just to be safe that he doesn’t see me as an ONS (and because HUS has told me so).
    Men are definitely different too, I live in France and the way men and women interact is somewhat different. Some think the French are much more liberated, it’s not really about that, more than the fact that there is more of a natural flirtatious undertone in man/woman interaction. They are pretty good with flirting, it doesn’t necessarily mean anything, but it has caused many French guys to be relaxed about talking to women, which makes them more comfortable to be around. I’m Norwegian, and I’m not into Norwegian guys at all, they’re way too stiff (and bred in a feminist country I might add). The French are definitely way more relaxed on when sex happens, that’s not just a rumour.
    Ask a Frenchman is a blog, and this guy basically says what most French guys would tell you, (under the point which says “sex”): http://www.askafrenchman.net/how-do-you-date-french-man/
    But as you see, the kissing is quite important

  • Charm

    @Deti 303

    I can’t say I know what cuckolding feels like, so I can’t fully understand your points, but I do agree with them. However, the last point you made about it not being the childs fault, I have a question for you:

    If you found out a child that you raised for lets say 5 years wasn’t yours could you just drop all communication with that child and refuse to take care of it?

    Does no one consider how this child will be affected?

    This is where I get stuck on the issue. I don’t agree that a man should be forced to take care of the child by law, but I kind of question the man’s character for walking away from an innocent child just because its mother made bad decisions.

  • deti

    @ Jesus M:

    You’re entitled to your opinion of me. I see things as they are, not as I’d like them to be. Marriage is important to men as well as women. I think we ignore that at our collective peril.

    Susan: “And many women decline the privilege.”

    I know. Glad to hear it. My point was that the culture and the modern mainstream church aren’t doing much to encourage your work here. I think that’s a disappointment, because it used to be quite different.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Interesting. Been googling physical features of high t vs. low t men and I fall pretty firmly into the high t camp (with the possible exception of my mouth. Can’t figure out if my mouth is “small and pursed” or if I have “full lips”. Really I think I’m somewhere in the middle).

    Though I’ve never actually thought of myself as a high t person.

  • deti

    Charm 313:

    I don’t know what that’s like either. Let me ask Susan to give you privately my email address and we can correspond if you want.

    I fear that my comments are taking this thread away from its intended purpose. I really need to be quiet now.

  • Charm

    @Anna

    Ah, I didn’t realize you were European. It seems culture plays a huge role in this. American views of sex is only “fucked up” to french peoples because its different and vice versa. The way they described how french people view sex in that link just made me never want to date a frenchman. Our views are too different.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    deti,

    I see things as I think they are, too. I would venture to say that most people do.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    YOU even have a post about facial features and testosterone. That was way before my time though, back in 2009.

  • Passer_By

    @charm “This is where I get stuck on the issue. I don’t agree that a man should be forced to take care of the child by law, but I kind of question the man’s character for walking away from an innocent child just because its mother made bad decisions.”

    Would you favor sole custody to the man (if he wants it) on the grounds tha the mother is presumptively unfit? Otherwise, you are just rewarding her behavior. And, of course, if you are concerned about the impact on the child here, it could all be avoided with mandatory paternity testing.

  • Just1X

    “Does no one consider how this child will be affected?”

    betrayal that deep by the woman I just stopped loving; she’s the one with the guilt issues.

    I’d be gone.

    It’s a basic justice issue to me. Staying around is rewarding her behaviour, not going to do that.

    It’s kind of old fashioned shaming / denial of benefit from evil doing – used to produce a stable society.

    I have no problem with men adopting, no problem at all. But tricking by lies is absolutely unacceptable – I guess that I’m an Old Testament kind of Atheist

  • Jesus Mahoney

    WOOT! Jesus Mahoney is one happy mo-fo at the moment.

    Sorry, just need to share that.

  • Passer_By

    @jesus

    Finally got that harem you’ve been coveting?

  • Malia

    This is an issue that’s important to men for several reasons. Marriage almost always brings kids. A husband wants to be reasonably sure the kids born to his wife are his. One way to do that is to marry a virgin, who is very unlikely to cheat. Marrying a virgin is a virtual impossibility in this SMP. Marrying a woman who is not a virgin might increase the risks of cheating which in turn increases the risk of cuckolding.

    The problem is that you’re taking a problem that is important to *some* men, and then mandating it to *all* at an expense. (– side note that while no man wants to have the

    I’m not saying that you shouldn’t do it, just that you should pay for it. Labor and delivery is already expensive, and although people say “they run a bunch of tests anyway” they run tests for medical anomalies and other information for which there is a medical necessity. The only “social” procedures that I’m aware of is circumcision and even in many cases there are battles to prohibit that, or at least coverage of that.

    Mandating it for all bears a cost for an issue that affects *some* and since there’s no medical reason, it just seems misguided to force the issue upon the health care system, which is already crippled and crumbling as it is.

    If you want the test, pay for the test. The way you’re going about it is not wanting to deal with the confrontation of not trusting the wife, so trying to mandate it to avoid the issue altogether, passing along the cost.

    The lack of trust, or concerns about cuckholdry, is a social issue, not a medical one. It’s reminiscent of “hymen checks.”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Passerby,

    Been there done that. Moving on to publishing a novel.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      Been there done that. Moving on to publishing a novel.

      OMG OMG OMG! Gaahhhh, tell us! You’ve got a book deal? Congratulations, well done Jesus!

  • Malia

    cut off my own sidenote: I wanted to say that no man wants to be cuckholded, not downplaying the importance of that, but in the manosphere it’s made out to be this huge issue when in reality it’s not a high occurring instance in marriages. It’s more of an issue in pregnancies that are the result of casual sex, etc..

  • Charm

    @deti

    Maybe you could just post in the forum? It would be easier and other people could weigh in and we could stop derailing the thread.

    @Just1X

    I realized by judging the man that I was shining the light off the woman. It is her fault. She should be blamed, she should be shamed. Thanks for pointing that out. The child just becomes a casualty and as much as I don’t like it and hate to say it, its almost necessary to instill accountability in women that do stuff like this.

  • Just1X

    No Malia,

    NO man wants to unknowingly raise another’s child.

    Why would that be hard to understand?

    It’s a kind of rape, not violent, but 20 years of financial and emotional abuse. Possibly losing the possibility of his own kids.

    How could you fail to understand? Only a sociopath couldn’t see the problem, surely? If you reverse the sexes, you’d be screaming about the injustice

  • Mike C

    If you found out a child that you raised for lets say 5 years wasn’t yours could you just drop all communication with that child and refuse to take care of it?

    Does no one consider how this child will be affected?

    This is where I get stuck on the issue. I don’t agree that a man should be forced to take care of the child by law, but I kind of question the man’s character for walking away from an innocent child just because its mother made bad decisions.

    Here is the problem Charm, and I am really beginning to believe that basically all women simply cannot grok the gravity of this particular issue (and that is based on numerous comments on a number of threads that discuss this in a very nonchalant kind of way like the guy leaving the toilet seat up)

    The child, although COMPLETELY INNOCENT, is a constant visual reminder of arguably the most heinous act of betrayal, emasculation, and disrespect that a man can feel. Hard to say for sure, but I think that would make me feel worse than my own Mom chopping my arm off. So.

    I think it is an act of utmost nobility IF a guy can get past it and stay connected to the child FOR THE CHILD’S SAKE. But I think it is almost ludicrous to indict the man’s character simply because he finds he cannot live with the constant mental torture and reminder of betrayal that the child is unfortunately the product of.

    Honestly, women who knowingly do this really are the worst sort of evil. At the very least, come clean at the birth, and let the chips fall where they may.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I don’t think it’s right to shame men who want to walk away from a child who isn’t theirs. If a man finds out at birth, it’s a lot less damaging to everyone except the guilty mother. Let her track down the bio father. The only blameless people in the scenario are the infant and the cuckolded husband.

  • Mike

    Malia 326

    Labor and delivery is already expensive, and although people say “they run a bunch of tests anyway” they run tests for medical anomalies and other information for which there is a medical necessity.

    It’s medically necessary for a child to have the medical/genetic history of both parents to be accurate to know what might affect his/her health in the future, such as predisposition for diabetes, heart disease or cancer.

    Oh won’t someone please think of the children.. and not cuckolding lying trash.

    Mandating it for all bears a cost for an issue that affects *some*

    Some people pay taxes for public transit, yet they drive their own vehicles. Some collective responsibility for the greater good.

    Really, i want to hear a good qualified reason for why this shouldn’t be mandatory. I want to hear a reason one would refuse the ounce of prevention at the expense of the tonnes of care required to deal with it when it does happen.

  • Malia

    Really, i want to hear a good qualified reason for why this shouldn’t be mandatory.

    Because it’s accessible voluntarily.

  • Malia

    – Only a sociopath couldn’t see the problem, –

    Nice.

    –If you reverse the sexes, you’d be screaming about the injustice–

    No I wouldn’t.

  • Just1X

    @Charm,

    yes, I agree that its cruel to the child. it’s just that mummy is the accountable one (or should be). it’s about curing the problem, not just sighing and giving the consequences to the man (the walking wallet)

    If you put the consequences where they belong, the problem tends to reduce.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I know. It sucks. That’s the same concept behind the finding that women want lower T men 26 days a month and high T guys when they’re ovulating. These are the vestiges (slow to disappear) from a much earlier set of conditions. Our world changes rapidly, but our brains haven’t really changed in 100,000 years.

    It’s not like a daily worry of mine or anything. But if I felt like she saw me as type b but was hotter for type a, I’d walk.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yup.

    Thanks :P

  • Charm

    @Mike C

    If you seem my comment at 330, you’ll see that I came to that conclusion. I was late to the party. But you, I found it odd that even I, someone who believes in fairness above all else, would consider judging a man for leaving the child.

    You’re right. Women really REALLY don’t get it. I can try to understand the gravity of the situation, but just explaining it to me won’t really have the same effect as it would on a man.

    Maybe there is a similar situation for women? The first thing that comes to mind is if a woman found out that her husband and father of her children had another woman on the side that he was taking care of? Or maybe he is taking care of her and the children her fathered with her? I know women look for a man with resources so maybe this situation could be similar to that of men being cuckolded?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus M,

    Kudos on your novel. Whats it about?

  • Passer_By

    Is your novel about sluts and PUAs?

  • Charm

    Susan, somehow Im stuck in moderation. There were not swear words this time, promise.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, somehow Im stuck in moderation. There were not swear words this time, promise.

      I’m working on the spam filter today, trying several things the software company suggested. Hopefully I can get this sorted out once and for all.

  • Passer_By

    @charm

    “Maybe there is a similar situation for women? ”

    As offensive as it may sound to women, the similar situation is forcible rape. As to why that is, it’s been discussed elsewhere.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    Thanks. Not sure how much I want to say about it, since I try to keep Jesus Mahoney and the other me separate. But it’s about a friendship between two men and it explores the influence they have on one another, and, ultimately, the limits of their commitment to each other. But that’s all I’ll say about it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    No PUAs. There’s a somewhat slutty woman involved in the plot at one point, but it’s not at all about her.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    Cool. I hope you make it big. I need a mansion to crash when Im in NYC.

    But two men uh? hum…

  • deti

    Malia:

    Let me get this out and then I’ll leave.

    1. MPT doesn’t mean the state pays. That’s a red herring. Insurance pays, or more likely, parents pay out of pocket.
    2. Best studies seem to indicate a nationwide cuckoldry rate of 3.7%. Still unacceptably high, don’t you think?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Two men, yea. You don’t have any good male friends?

  • Just1X

    @Malia,

    yeah, suppose I don’t believe you?

    If biological link is so unimportant, why is it I see stories on the news when a woman gets the wrong baby from the hospital?

    Happened in Russia this winter didn’t it? Some woman had paternity tests so that she could sue ‘daddy’ for paternity (which ex-husband denied), but it turned out the kid was not his OR hers…how come this was a big deal?

    for some reason THAT lack of a biological link IS important, but ‘daddy’ is just a wallet to be picked to raise whoever else’s kid.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Some of my favorite novels where about the relationships and life choices around two men ( anything by Hermann Hesse ).

    Still they had this underlying Brokeback Mountain thing to them.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Happened in Russia this winter didn’t it? Some woman had paternity tests so that she could sue ‘daddy’ for paternity (which ex-husband denied), but it turned out the kid was not his OR hers

    That would be a cool story.

  • Mike C

    Maybe there is a similar situation for women?

    Go read The Truth in Male Sexuality thread. The concept that a man could have one main love interest while simultaneously have extra sex partners on the side seemed to elicit a similar magnitude of emotionality and outrage so perhaps that is the comparable analogue at least in terms of emotional impact. Perhaps for visual impact, the child might have the same emotional trigger in the cuckolded main as say a woman standing there watching her love fuck someone else.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Think more Don Quixote and Sancho Panza…. or Dean Moriarty and Sal Paradise.

  • Tom

    Charm is right. A man doesn`t want to be cuckolded and spend his resourses on a kid that isnt his. likewise a woman doesnt want her families money to be going to a woman and a child HE fathered behind her back. I fail to see much difference here.
    As for cheating, it is always wrong. I`d say men and women both share equal chances of being unfaithful. If you look at the stats WAYY up there^ it shows infidelity and incompatability are about the same when it comes to reasons for divorce. I find that interesting.

  • Charm

    @Passer_By

    Im not gonna lie, rape seems MUCH worse in this situation. I don’t see the correlation between rape and being cuckolded. I really don’t. Thats probably because Im not a man so I wouldn’t be in the situation. I can’t identity with it. But, if I replace the feeling I get when I think about being raped with how man must feel (according to you) being cuckolded, I think that law is complete crap. It should be overturned. Its not right.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I have to say, I’m fascinated and astounded that after all the contention around the issue of frivolous divorce and my views a couple of weeks ago, there are virtually no men here critiquing or discussing the issue, including those that specifically demanded that I write this post as a demonstration of intellectual honesty (in fairness, one is no longer welcome here).

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    *Some of my favorite novels [were]

    Think more Don Quixote and Sancho Panza…. or Dean Moriarty and Sal Paradise.

    Coolio.

  • Escoffier

    deti: seems like that’s kind of a problem with Christianity in general, as Mike suggests. Prodigal son and all that.

    Anyway, the idea that men should be shamed into marrying reformed sluts strikes me as preposterous. I have been accused at Dalrock’s of harboring that view many times. But I had literally never even heard of the notion until reading it in comments here and there. I mean really, who actually thinks that?

  • Just1X

    http://www.circleofmoms.com/article/12-year-old-girls-switched-birth-01910

    How about that Malia, these Moms aren’t so keen to raise some one else’s kid…who’d of thought that?

  • Ted D

    Malia – I hope you aren’t being purposely dense on the paternity issue. I can’t understand how any woman could possibly NOT understand what a huge deal cuckoldry is. I suppose they don’t get it because they always know their children are theirs…

    To some of us men, children is the only way to leave a legacy. Yes, I look at my children as MY legacy to the world, that will live on after I’m gone, and continue my line into the future. If my children are not my own genetically, and one of my goals in life is to leave a genetic legacy, then a cuckolding wife is stealing that from me, and even worse if she passes some other man’s child off as my own.

    If genetic offspring are so irrelevant, then why doesn’t the state simply take all newborn babies and assign them to a proper family to be raised? Why do we continue to give children back to unfit parents even though they can be raised by someone else in a better environment? Its easy in my opinion for a woman to say it doesn’t matter, because anytime she gets pregnant she is passing on her genes, regardless of who the father is. Men don’t have that luxury, and rely on a woman’s honesty and integrity to pass on their genes, or they simply rape or “sex up” as many woman as possible and play the odds.

    So at least for any RESPONSIBLE man, they rely on a woman’s honesty and integrity to pass on their genes.

  • Passer_By

    @Charm

    Suffice it to say, if they are being honest, almost all men would tell you that they’d rather be forcibly buggered one time than have this happen to them.

    Similar to your inability to understand mens’ gut reaction to this, most men don’t think it would be so bad to be held down and have some woman climb on top and have sex with him (assuming she’s not an absolutely hideous beast). They might not want it to happen, but they’d get over it in a day or two. Evolution didn’t give us a deep emotional reaction to that, just like it didn’t give you a deep emotional reaction to the idea of being cuckholded. But men at least seem to understand that it would be traumatic to a woman. And, no, it’s not the same as a man having a second family. In the case, the woman still had reproductive choice and her child is hers.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    The only thing comparable for women is infertility resulting from the husband cheating on her with a mistress and giving her a horrible disease, and the pain of not being able to have her own children.

    Yeah I am firmly on the guys’ side here on the paternity testing issue. Honesty is the best policy, and since we have the biotechnology to discover the truth, I’m for it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Suffice it to say, if they are being honest, almost all men would tell you that they’d rather be forcibly buggered one time than have this happen to them.

    Sick as it sounds, he’s probably right.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    I think your article pleased them so much that they went somewhere else to find something to piss them off.

    Honestly.

  • Mike

    @MikeC 355
    “Perhaps for visual impact, the child might have the same emotional trigger in the cuckolded main as say a woman standing there watching her love fuck someone else.”

    And then being asked to pay for the womans expenses while the wife sleeps on the sofa downstairs.

  • Just1X

    Perhaps we thought that the summary was pretty fair?

    Just a thought, Jesus

  • Tom

    passer by…hogwash……A more fair comparison would be, how would you feel if some BIG dude held you down at gun point and did you in your rear.. That is probably how a woman might feel…sheesh you guys amaise me.

  • Tom

    amaize

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Just,

    That’s what I said. You thought it was good, so you moved onto something that would get you more riled up.

  • Passer_By

    I’m not sure Susan’s piece really addresses the hotly contested question: Is frivolous divorce overstated generally in the manosphere (using a definition of “frivolous” to which Susan could agree, and acknowledging that that most of the manosphere would accept a similar definition)?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      I’m not sure Susan’s piece really addresses the hotly contested question: Is frivolous divorce overstated generally in the manosphere (using a definition of “frivolous” to which Susan could agree, and acknowledging that that most of the manosphere would accept a similar definition)?

      There are two reasons why I was unable to answer this question:

      1. To this day I have only received one definition of frivolous divorce, offered by several commenters at Dalrock’s. It holds that under no-fault, all divorce is frivolous. Dalrock himself elected not to define the term, although he did imply that infidelity didn’t qualify.

      2. My definition in this post is very conservative, and I am on record as estimating that half (or more) divorces fall into the EPL category. That’s a pretty big number, but I fear it’s not big enough to placate MRAs.

      Ultimately, determining whether something is exaggerated is impossible if it’s a moving target. As I’ve said several times, if the manosphere defines all divorce as frivolous, then I believe it is overstated. If it defines frivolous divorce as including any of the categories that I excluded above, I believe it is overstated.

      I chose not to include this dispute in the post itself, as I want it to stand alone as a primer on modern marriage for single women.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    BTW I wrote a post on paternity testing back in 2009:

    http://www.rosehope.com/uncomfortable-truths/

    In case anyone doubted my sincerity.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    amaize

    Strike two.

  • Mike

    @Susan 367

    +1

    Your article was very well done and does a great service towards educating. Now it’s a hope that the educated become a force to actually enact change. Godspeed.

  • Tom

    amaze..lol

  • Malia

    Malia:

    Let me get this out and then I’ll leave.

    1. MPT doesn’t mean the state pays. That’s a red herring. Insurance pays, or more likely, parents pay out of pocket.

    Sure it does. I’m sure in your MC/UMC life you forget the vast numbers of people on publicly funded or subsidized health care, or the uninsured that can receive emergency care when presenting at a hospital (and labor and delivery is considered emergency care) and you’re adding MPT on top of that. So you want to test 100% of the people for a social issue that affects 3.7%. Again, I’d put my money on it that the majority of false paternity occurs outside of marriage, even the Wiki article you get that stat from backs that up.

  • Charm

    Its “amaze”.

    @Jesus 376,

    Lol, I really didn’t want to say anything.

  • Passer_By

    @Tom

    LOL. It’s “amaze”. And, as I said, most men would rather that happen to them once than be cuckolded. So, what is it you are disagreeing with?

  • Ted D

    Susan – I think your article was very fair and balanced between what the men wanted to see and your mission here at HUS. I have no complaints on my end, and am looking forward to the future posts along the same topic.

    I get that you are still pro-marriage, but I do appreciate that you are taking the time to specifically point out the dangers for men, and I think any reasonable man feels the same.

    I am pro-marriage as a concept, but right now I’m on the fence in regards to the actual legal practice of marriage as it exists in the U.S. today. I want to see people marry and raise children in a stable environment. I just don’t know how we get there from where we stand now, and frankly I’m not very optimistic right now that the process will be swift or painless in the least.

    Most of all, I worry for my children who will be out there trying to find a mate during the chaos yet to come. It may be better for them, but my gut tells me it will be worse.

    I don’t think women realize how tough this is for a man. I find myself wanting to support marriage, but concerned about telling my children to pursue it. And as much as I hate to say it, I worry more about my son. I don’t want either of my children to suffer a terrible marriage and divorce, but as it stands of the two my daughter would be likely to walk away relatively unscathed, while my son could very well end up ruined financially. So far I have not approached them from a different perspective, and have tried to present the same “face” to both of them on the subject, but as my son gets older I am finding it harder to continue. I refuse to allow him to be ground up by a failed marriage, but I don’t want to scare or dissuade him from getting married and raising a family either.

  • Tom

    I could live with my wifes infidelity a lot easier than being cornholed by some dude at gun point.
    But that is just me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Re Tom’s comments:

      1. I could live with my wifes infidelity a lot easier than being cornholed by some dude at gun point.

      2. amaize

      Did anyone else notice the common element is corn?

  • Malia

    @ TedD
    –If genetic offspring are so irrelevant–

    Straw man. Didn’t write that.

    —I hope you aren’t being purposely dense on the paternity issue. —

    I get the issue, but you can get the tests you want now, without issue.

    You wanna mandate prenups too? You can GET all these things.

    —Its easy in my opinion for a woman to say it doesn’t matter—

    Who said that?

  • Charm

    “Now it’s a hope that the educated become a force to actually enact change. ”

    But no one is actively out “there” changing anything. I don’t know one other person in my real life that has taken the red pill or discusses any of these issues. This world really only seems to exist on the internet. That really makes me sad.

  • Ted D

    Malia – if the U.S. government keeps up as it is, we will all be on socialized health care soon anyway, so I don’t see the point.

    And I get that you see 3.7% as a small number, but I bet any one of the men in that 3.7% don’t see it as a small issue. And with all of the other stupid crap my tax dollars are spent on, I’m OK with a few extra for a paternity test at birth.

    Maybe we should simply put it on a ballot?

  • http://15ghz.tumblr.com LW

    Heaven forbid people – especially women – make their own decisions! All of you should mind your own business.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      LW has a blog, partially dedicated to opposing the “over-exaggeration of biological differences.”

      Is that exaggeration squared?

  • Anna

    @ Ted D (and other guys)
    Unrelated to the paternity test thing, what is actually men’s attitude towards marrying a woman with children? Since you brought up leaving a legacy etc., I am curious of the attitude when you KNOW the children are another man’s. I wonder if men are even less likely to do so in the US than Europe.

    I’m not saying that because I plan to be a single mum – naturally I want my future husband to be the father of my children. But personally I’ve been brought up by a stepfather. My biological father died when I was little, so there was no way my mother could have ‘prevented’ this (as with divorce, contraception etc). Before he died, he told my mum he knew she would eventually meet a new man but he asked that she didn’t have more children, as he didn’t my sister and I to have stepchildren. My stepfather was 56 when my mum met him, he had no children and no previous marriages. So naturally, to this day (he’s 70) he has no children of his own. His brother’s family openly considers his own children first line to their parents’ inheritance, as they are children by blood, something that is very sad for my dad. I have noticed (other countries more than where I’m from) that a blood-line thinking is very central. I find that sad and wonder if they feel the same about adoption.
    Keep in mind, that is not a critique towards you! I support the paternity tests and all, I just wonder what men’s attitude towards this is, and whether perhaps my father is a great exception.

  • Tom

    I still dont buy this whole cuckold thing as a reason to pick a wife. I dont think that EVER crossed my mind, especially when I was young and getting married. I dont think it crossed most young mens minds. I dont buy the genitic, predisposition to stray and spread the seed either. I think both are cop outs

  • Ted D

    Tom – “I could live with my wifes infidelity a lot easier than being cornholed by some dude at gun point.
    But that is just me.”

    its just you. Although, this wasn’t a discussion about infidelity, it was about raising another man’s child. I would walk away from a cheating wife in a second, but I honestly don’t know what I’d do if I found out my son really wasn’t mine…

  • Just1X

    @Passer_by – that’s another thread, I believe. Knock yourself out.

    @Jesus – and…?

    you came here to back-slap each other over an agreed view-point? How very dull of you.

    I thought Susan wrote a fair summary of the issue, this seems to be a shared assessment as there has been little debate over it.

    Mr Munson gave an excellent break down of the Florida thang? Much appreciated Mr M. It seems the judge thought that the judgement stank and Mr M says things are still progressing – cool.

    Susan’s post examined why men might legitimately feel that marriage was not a winning idea. Cuckolding is a related subject…what’s your issue? I think that injustice is important, I hope you gain insight as you grow older – you could even get an EPL blockbuster out of it…whohoo

  • Ted D

    Malia – @ TedD
    “–If genetic offspring are so irrelevant–

    Straw man. Didn’t write that.” – the point was made that for some it is irrelevant and a man should simply suck it up and pay regardless. I wasn’t accusing you, just making the point.

    “—I hope you aren’t being purposely dense on the paternity issue. —

    I get the issue, but you can get the tests you want now, without issue.” – right, and asking for it would be like setting off a nuclear bomb. “Honey, I know you are really tired after all that pushing, but I don’t trust you so can we get a DNA test?” I’m sorry, but that scenario is just stupid.

    “You wanna mandate prenups too? You can GET all these things.” – well, I would go for mandatory prenups, and if we aren’t going to reform family court law then yeah I’m all for it.

    “—Its easy in my opinion for a woman to say it doesn’t matter—

    Who said that?” I did, in the post you quoted. I also said it was my opinion, so I claimed ownership as I wrote it.

  • William Newman

    Hope wrote “The only thing comparable for women is infertility resulting from the husband cheating on her with a mistress and giving her a horrible disease, and the pain of not being able to have her own children.”

    You could also try a man and wife going in for fertility treatments which were supposed to use the wife’s eggs, but the husband conspiring with the clinic to use his mistress’s eggs to fertilize his wife instead.

  • Malia

    —And I get that you see 3.7% as a small number, but I bet any one of the men in that 3.7% don’t see it as a small issue. And with all of the other stupid crap my tax dollars are spent on, I’m OK with a few extra for a paternity test at birth.—

    First of all, you keep going back and forth on the issue.

    There is the issue of false paternity in general

    and false paternity in marriage.

    If a man and a woman are not married, in most states (probably all, U don’t want to look it up) there is no presumption of paternity and he has to consent to have his name on the birth certificate. This is normally done through a declaration of paternity. At any point in this time, the man can ask for a test or contest it.

    Ill say it again and no one refutes this. False paternity is more of an issue outside of marriage than inside it.

    So that’s an entirely different issue.

    My point is that mandating it is not necessary. It is my argument that false paternity is a very low issue within marriages (where there is a presumption of paternity), certainly not enough to mandate testing, and anyone can access testing, as it is now, without barrier.

    Therefore, the bulk of false paternity concerns come from people who are NOT married, but in that case, there is no presumption of paternity anyway.

  • Charm

    @LW

    I enjoyed your website. I needed a good laugh today.

  • http://15ghz.tumblr.com LW

    @Susan Walsh:

    I am sure all the ‘SMP’ math has melted your brain a bit, so feel free to get back to me when you are able to compute a better insult.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @LW

      Let’s hear your views then. You say women can make their own decisions, which no one disputes. We’re discussing whether those decisions are good and fair. Do you understand that men feel the deck is stacked against them, and it’s driving down marriage rates? Which is driving down childbirth rates? Which means that no one is going to work to pay the Social Security you may be looking forward to?

      On a more empathic level, do you not feel for men whose wives separate them from their children and wreak financial havoc so that they can “find themselves,” i.e. screw someone new?

      I don’t know if you’re a typical feminist, but many don’t care about these issues because they plan neither to marry nor have children. But it’s still best for you if other people do marry.

  • deti

    malia:

    “I’m sure in your MC/UMC life you forget***”

    Nice attempt at classism there. For those not in the know, Malia assumes I am middle class or upper middle class.

    This is really nothing more than ad hominem attack, classism and “some people are better able to pay than others, so therefore MPT is bad.”

    How charming.

    Malia: Let’s say you’re about to board an airplane. You know that plane has a 3.7% chance of crashing and killing you. Would you board that plane, no questions asked?

  • Ted D

    “@ Ted D (and other guys)
    Unrelated to the paternity test thing, what is actually men’s attitude towards marrying a woman with children? Since you brought up leaving a legacy etc., I am curious of the attitude when you KNOW the children are another man’s. I wonder if men are even less likely to do so in the US than Europe.”

    Well, if you look back at some of the older stuff I’ve posted, you’d see that my daughter is not biologically mine. I met her mother when she was almost 2 years old, and we married before she was 3. I raised her as my own, and even now after my divorce I still pay for her health care, and she comes to stay with me over the summer. That being said, my son is mine biologically with my ex. I’ve always treated them equally and certainly love them both more than can be measured. To add to this, I am currently with a woman that has two children of her own. We live together, with her two children and my son, and we are raising them as a family. My daughter chose to move out of state with her mother for her senior year of High School, and to be honest I’m glad for it. After the divorce they both stayed with me, but when she suggested that she might like to spend her final year in school with her mother my ex and I discussed it and decided it was a good idea. Frankly there was some bad mojo between them after the divorce, and I am glad to see they are working it out.

    In the end, I have NO problem raising another man’s child, as long as I am given the choice. My daughter and my SO’s children deserve to grow up in a stable environment, and I am happy to help provide one. That being said, if I did not have a child of my own (biologically speaking) I would still be looking to have one. Thankfully that isn’t the case. As a 41 year old man, I do NOT want to start over at diapers again!

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Charm, believe it or not, a LOT of men are aware of these issues. They just don’t talk about such things with females because it would be exceedingly difficult, and they may be ostracized for their views. My husband doesn’t even say a lot of anti-feminist stuff to his mother.

    Many men know the issues but are not quite as extreme or vocal. There was a divorce recently in our extended family, and all the men in the family murmur about it, how unhappy the guy was, how he has to pay a lot of alimony, how at least he gets joint-custody of the kids, and so on, even though it was a relatively non-adversarial divorce.

    They won’t bring this topic up with you first. If you want to know what the guys think, and I mean what they *really* think, pretend to be a guy and ask them online. My husband only tells me the things he does because he knows I won’t react poorly to any of it. He is extremely smart, and any smart guy these days has a high chance of either taking the red pill or being receptive to it.

  • Just1X

    @Anna,

    I guess my reaction would be quite normal; somebody else’s kids is a reduction in SMV, and even greater drop in MMV. But if the ‘deal’ was still attractive – go for it. If I were bringing kids to the party as well, maybe it’s no big deal at all. Or couldn’t have them and was desperate.

    If everything is out in the open, it’s up to the people involved.

    Kids are expensive and restrict your lifestyle (yes, I know that there’re positives as well), so they aren’t likely to be a plus are they?

    Tom Leykis has some clips on Youtube that *brutally* address the issue. A bit harshly (IMHO), but the girl I heard agreed with his assessment that she was ‘damaged goods’ (I did say brutally). She had married young, had a kid and the marriage went south => single mom.

  • Malia

    – right, and asking for it would be like setting off a nuclear bomb. “Honey, I know you are really tired after all that pushing, but I don’t trust you so can we get a DNA test?” I’m sorry, but that scenario is just stupid.–

    And there is the real issue.

    You don’t want to ask because you know what it infers to the woman you have married, therefore you want the law to do the job for you so you can avoid the confrontation.

    At least make it about what it REALLY is.

    You get your security without confrontation. That’s really what it’s about. And if that’s what you want, then say that, advocate for it. Don’t take something, make it out to be a big issue, just to have something to “back you up” and avoid dealing with the ROOT of the problem.

    A lot of the crap that goes on here is about people not wanting to deal with the root of the problem and dancing in circles around the elephant in the room. And there are lots of women here supporting a lot of things because they can’t see what the REAL issue here.

    The REAL issue is that there’s so much distrust that people want rules, regulations and games to get themselves into a situation of more comfort. The REALITY is that all the mandating won’t change that. Nothing changes when people refuse to deal with the REAL issue.

  • Ted D

    Malia – “If a man and a woman are not married, in most states (probably all, U don’t want to look it up) there is no presumption of paternity and he has to consent to have his name on the birth certificate.”

    Who gives a shit about the birth certificate? How about in two years when she goes on welfare, and they start looking for a baby daddy? Because welfare WILL go after him for child support before they give her a dime. And good luck trying to get the government off your back if the woman tags you as the father. Get your $$ out for a lawyer, oh and of course some $ for paternity testing…

    On the other hand, if paternity testing was done at birth, there would never be any question of who the daddy was. It matters not to me if the woman is married or not.

  • Malia

    –Who gives a shit about the birth certificate?—

    See, stay out of topics where you don’t know what you’re talking about. It’s the birth certificate and declaration of paternity by which paternity is documented. When the state goes after a father to recoup aid payments, where do you think they get the info on who the father is?

    Pointless discussing with you.

  • deti

    Susan 367:

    It is a good article. It’s fair, it’s balanced, it’s well researched, and the conclusions reached were valid. I can’t see how it could be controversial. I’m looking forward to the next ones in the series.

    Susan 400:

    Certainly there are valid reasons to divorce and those have been discussed in this thread and elsewhere.

    It defies all logic to say that all divorce is frivolous. To the extent the amorphous “manosphere” holds that position, I strongly disagree with it.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “On the other hand, once they decide they’re ready, some woman might get lucky real fast. There is an element of timing and luck. Right place, right time.”

    It is true men come to their decision whether they are ready to get married at all is a decision made independently of any woman. I didn’t want to get married until I had a steady job in my profession and could support a child, even if one wasn’t immediately on the way.

    The best way to be in the right place at the right time is to already be his boyfriend when he decides.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      The best way to be in the right place at the right time is to already be his boyfriend when he decides.

      Good point. It’s a crapshoot, but then, relationships always are.

  • Ted D

    “You don’t want to ask because you know what it infers to the woman you have married, therefore you want the law to do the job for you so you can avoid the confrontation.”

    No. It isn’t about cuckolding in marriage only. It is about paternity, period. I don’t care who is or is not married. What I want is the same guaranty for men that women enjoy naturally: the assurance that their children are actually theirs. And I don’t see why it should be a “luxury” only for those that can afford the test.

    By that standard, only men with extra money would ever know for sure.

  • Charm

    @Hope

    But doesn’t that allow the problem to persist? If people continually refuse to speak up it continues to happen. Or in this case, it gets worse. I know it takes one person to stand up first before others dare follow, I just wish it wasn’t so. I can’t say I understand the being afraid of ostracism. I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut and yes, it gets me into trouble, but a part of me feels like it was worth it regardless of the consequences. Probably why I have no female friends when I come to think of it. Lol.

  • Ted D

    “See, stay out of topics where you don’t know what you’re talking about. It’s the birth certificate and declaration of paternity by which paternity is documented. When the state goes after a father to recoup aid payments, where do you think they get the info on who the father is?”

    Not sure where you live, but my ex was TOLD by welfare that she HAD to provide them with a father’s name before she would get benefits. And, his name wasn’t on the BC. When she said she didn’t know where to find him, they suggested she hire a private investigator to track him down, then they would go after him.

    Now this was in the early 90′s, so perhaps things have changed. But that still doesn’t fix the issue, which is there is no way for a man to know his child is actually his without a test. Make the test standard. It will get cheaper, and then everyone will know the truth from the get go.

    I get that you think it is a waste, but I think it is a waste to spend tax dollars on all kinds of stuff. That doesn’t mean I get to tell the government not to use MY dollars on them.

  • Malia

    —Malia assumes I am middle class or upper middle class.—

    You’ve written as much.

    –Malia: Let’s say you’re about to board an airplane. You know that plane has a 3.7% chance of crashing and killing you. Would you board that plane, no questions asked?–

    I don’t know what the average risk of a plane crash is, but anytime you board a plane it’s either zero or 100. So yes, I board planes, get into cars, etc., knowing full well I could not make it out. It’s a really poor analogy.

    You can get a paternity test. There’s no obstacle to that.

    This isn’t about whether or not you can get the test, this is about wanting the test without the discussion as to why you want the test.

  • deti

    Malia:

    “The REAL issue is that there’s so much distrust that people want rules, regulations and games to get themselves into a situation of more comfort.”

    One of the bases for seeking MPT is that distrust. That distrust is the result of 50 years of incremental feminism, increasingly legislating the marital relationship and the dissolution of that relationship. The woman already has an arsenal of laws and regulations at her disposal. The wife holds a Sword of Damocles over the husband’s head. Yet you object to one — ONE –proposed regulation or law that favors men.

    For example, the wife has VAWA. All she has to do is say “I feel unsafe” and that triggers a number of things, most notably removal of the husband from the house.

    Let’s say the man asks for a paternity test after the child’s birth. Wife knows hubby might not be the daddy. She gets husband kicked out by simply telling a cop or a doctor: “I feel unsafe because my husband asked for a paternity test.”

  • Ted D

    “This isn’t about whether or not you can get the test, this is about wanting the test without the discussion as to why you want the test.”

    No, this is about providing the test equally to all men, or only to those that have the extra cash to afford it. If I’m seriously going to pay more taxes for health care, I don’t see why I shouldn’t get something out of it…

  • Malia

    –Now this was in the early 90′s, so perhaps things have changed. –

    They have. Drastically so. Most likely because of issues of naming fathers without consent.

  • Mike C

    Unrelated to the paternity test thing, what is actually men’s attitude towards marrying a woman with children?

    ……..

    I just wonder what men’s attitude towards this is, and whether perhaps my father is a great exception.

    Anna,

    I can say with 95-98% probability I wouldn’t marry a woman with children (ones I would have to raise, financially support, and live with, grown children on their own would be a different matter). I’m 37 now, but maybe that would change a bit if I was 50-55 and single and felt I had a smaller pool of realistic options. The 2-5% gap might be for a truly absolutely amazing woman. Its all academic for me personally, but those are my hypothetical answers since you asked.

    I’m just guessing, but I’m probably in the extreme minority on this one, and your father was NOT the exception. Truthfully, I don’t have a strong desire for biological children of my own when I think of the time and financial resources sacrifice. Making those time and financial resources sacrifices for another man’s biological children is almost unfathomable to me. Again though, I am probably in a small minority.

  • deti

    Malia:

    “—Malia assumes I am middle class or upper middle class.—

    You’ve written as much.”

    Prejudice based on perceived class status. Classism.

    Your views have no credibility.

  • Ted D

    Malia – well I’m glad things are better for men, but that still doesn’t change the core issue: men have NO WAY of knowing, by default, if their children are theirs. Why should they have to pay extra to find out?

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    @ Charm @ 3.

    My thoughts exactly.

    The other thing:
    One can tick a box for ‘unknown’ in a divorce?
    Huh?
    You can end your MARRIAGE and you don’t know why?

    No wonder things are the way they are.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JT

      One can tick a box for ‘unknown’ in a divorce?
      Huh?
      You can end your MARRIAGE and you don’t know why?

      I think that reflects people whose spouse initiated divorce and they don’t know why. For example, Elizabeth Gilbert’s husband would probably have said “I don’t know.”

  • Mike C

    They won’t bring this topic up with you first. If you want to know what the guys think, and I mean what they *really* think, pretend to be a guy and ask them online.

    +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

    I continue to be flabbergasted, just absolutely amazed when women make comments to the effect of “such and such guy told me this in real life, or my co-workers said this or whatever”

    In fact, I’d argue a good test of sub-par intelligence is the degree to which a woman actually believes a man is going to be candid and forthcoming in real-life about these sorts of very controversial male-female issues where there are VERY POWERFUL CULTURALLY CORRECT PC ANSWERS.

    The truth of the matter is reading HUS and other “manosphere” sites probably gets you closer to the unvarnished truth of what most male minds are thinking. There is no way in hell, I would talk about ANY of this stuff with co-workers. Now in my personal life, I don’t care because I don’t back down. I’ll give you an example. I was discussing something with my GF the other day, and she threw out kiddingly “you are just chauvinist”. Hello, shit test coming right down the middle of plate. Swing and go for the home run. 10 years ago I would have been defensive and apologetic. I simply said I believed there were strong biological differences between men and women, and if that makes me chauvinist, so be it. She said I was absolutely right and that was that.

  • Ted D

    Besides, should you, as a woman, be relieved knowing that your husband/boyfriend/baby daddy will never wonder if that kid is his?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Malia,

    anytime you board a plane it’s either zero or 100. [CHANCE OF CRASHING!]

    Worst air travel marketing ever!

    And no, thats not how statistics work.

  • Passer_By

    @Tom

    We’re not talking about mere infidelity here. It’s infidelity coupled with being duped on paternity and then learning about it years later.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PasserBy

      We’re not talking about mere infidelity here. It’s infidelity coupled with being duped on paternity.

      The infidelity part is often ignored in these discussions, but you’re right, it’s a double whack. Your wife cheated on you, and you’ve just spent nine months learning the breathing exercises and getting her favorite snacks in. Now there’s tangible evidence of that cheating and continued lying, and it needs a lot of care.

      I accept that as a woman I can’t fully grok this, but I get it well enough. If it happened to me, I’d want to know at the birth and I would walk right out of the hospital and out of that woman’s life. Having the test be routine is hardly traumatic for the innocent, and the only way of really catching these cases early.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    ” cut off my own sidenote: I wanted to say that no man wants to be cuckholded, not downplaying the importance of that, but in the manosphere it’s made out to be this huge issue when in reality it’s not a high occurring instance in marriages. It’s more of an issue in pregnancies that are the result of casual sex, etc..”

    I don’t think you know what you’re talking about. False paternity is estimated at 10%. Would you get on a plane that had a failure rate of 10% without asking to see its safety certifications? That’s a massive issue to all men.

  • Sasha

    Yohami,

    You are talking male statistics. Malia is talking female statistics. Rules are different the biggest difference being no concept of past/history. So in that frame-work she is correct – the plane either falls down or not. 0 or 1. Feminine logic ain’t binary, but statistics is. There is wisdom in that.

  • Zach

    @Megaman

    Skimmed over the last 30 or so comments, but back to your comments about problems with “game”, I don’t see “getting men to change” as necessarily a bad thing. In fact, we as a sex are extremely lucky in this regard, in that we CAN make those changes. Women are attracted to men who are confident, charming, dominant, and successful, and also physically attractive. Men are attracted to women who are physically attractive. Other qualities matter, but follow far after. However, men can change all of those features except physical attractiveness (and even on that, developing a six-pack and working out get a man further than an ugly woman getting skinny). Ask any woman you know, if they could spend 6 months working on it, and by the end they would have gone from a 6 to an 8 (purely physically, and I’m talking about non-weight issues, such as prettiness, bust, butt, etc), every single one would take it. Unfortunately that’s not how it works. Men, however, can do that. For us, those things (the prettiness, T&A, etc) are in our behavior, which we can change. I honestly view it as a gift. I’ve always been good at picking up and dating women naturally (probably gleaned from my father), but I have the recourse of knowing that if I made a mistake in picking up a girl, I can learn from it and correct it to do better next time. Girls, if they’re rejected based on their looks (which is the case for rejection 90% of the time), can’t really do much about it. I’m honestly thankful that as a man, I do have that ability to change my attractiveness so dramatically. I feel bad for the women who aren’t as pretty, as there’s really only marginal improvements that can be made.

    @Susan

    On the whole marriage debate, I think one of the best strategies for men, and you can see this in the data, is to wait. I’m only 24, but I do find that women tend to mature and grow out of some of the more narcissistic behaviors described here as they get older, even just by a couple of years. I understand the whole fertility argument, but you can still wait and marry a 28 year-old woman without a massive drop in fertility (it really hits a cliff around 33-34, according to these: http://dalrock.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/fertility3.png
    http://dalrock.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/chromosomes1.png

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      I think one of the best strategies for men, and you can see this in the data, is to wait

      Certainly men need not be in any hurry. As for women, I agree. I was 27, it felt like the perfect time to marry. Although I do think some women are mature at 24, others won’t ever get there. I think the real key is not to marry too quickly – a relationship should be tried and tested at length before marriage. My husband and I lived together, and that was a great test run in our case.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ted D, I think I would volunteer paternity testing if my husband ever expresses doubt. Alas we’re still trying to conceive.

    Mike C, I never uttered the word chauvinist again after taking the red pill.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Shit, someone already used the plane analogy.

    Anyway, Malia is off the donkey rails, painting this as some kind of “getting back at feminists” strategy.

    This is exactly what I said above about women showing empathy for the risks men face. Men have been asked to show tremendous empathy for the risks women face. Women don’t seem as willing to do the same. When you show you have no willingness to see it from the other side, you just come across as a huge bitch.

  • Zach

    Wow, remind me to refresh next time. In the hour since I brought up the comments section there have been 80+. I’m totally out of the loop with that last one, sorry.

  • Rum

    For the women here.
    Imagine you are an earnest and hard working wife of an alpha guy. He likes the conveniences you provide in the marriage but deep down he finds you insufficiently attractive. So he rather effortless gets a younger, hotter thing on the side. By and by, he decides he wants a child, but not with your weak genes. His girlfriend wants one as well, but only if the process does not stress her body and leave stretch marks. So they use a home in vitro fertility kit to produce a batch of their fertilized eggs. Next, they give you some roofies and giggle together as they put them in your womb. 9 months later you have twins. Complications ensue and you end up with a hysterectomy.
    By and by you find out the truth. But you do not really mind because
    1. You got to parent some kids and 2. At least you were never raped!

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Did some googling, the chance of having a plane crash accident is 1 in 9.2 million if you did the screening and went for the good airlines.

    That means a 0.000001% chance. In other words, dont worry about it.

    If screening for the right partner reduced the chance of cukholding to 1 in 9.2 million, we wouldnt even have a word for it. If 0.1e-5 was the chance of divorce or things turning ugly… what am I talking about?

    With a 1 or 100% chance of planes crashing I wouldnt even go out of my house. Too many planes crashing around.

    In the case of relationships, too many of them crash around.

  • Mike C

    And no, thats not how statistics work.

    LOL, yup, I laughed when I read that. Clearly, someone ditched their statistics classes.

    BEFORE you flip the coin, and it actually lands the probabilities are 50/50, not 0 and 100 each time just before you flip it.

  • Ted D

    “Anyway, Malia is off the donkey rails, painting this as some kind of “getting back at feminists” strategy.”

    In my experience she usually is of the rails. But sometimes its just fun to poke the bear, even if it pisses the bear off.

    I’m usually a small government/less laws kind of guy. But honestly, I’m OK with mandatory paternity testing, and mandatory prenups as far is it goes. If nothing else, at least something you sign saying expressly that you DO NOT WANT a prenup.

  • Malia

    –And no, thats not how statistics work.—

    Yes it is. There is an overall percentage of it happening amongst a population. Yet for an INDIVIDUAL either it happens or it does not. if it happens 3.7 times out of 100, when it comes to one person, it either is 0 or 100.

  • Charm

    “Besides, should you, as a woman, be relieved knowing that your husband/boyfriend/baby daddy will never wonder if that kid is his?”

    Im sure a woman who possessed doubt due to infidelity would breathe a huge sigh of relief.

  • Ted D

    Charm – “Charm January 11, 2012 at 4:15 pm
    “Besides, should you, as a woman, be relieved knowing that your husband/boyfriend/baby daddy will never wonder if that kid is his?”

    Im sure a woman who possessed doubt due to infidelity would breathe a huge sigh of relief.”

    That was a failed attempt at sarcasm from me, with the addition of a typo. I get why women don’t want mandatory paternity testing. And it is precisely why I think it should be required.

    It doesn’t guaranty your wife didn’t cheat, but at least the kid you are raising is indeed yours…

  • Stingray

    What I want is the same guaranty for men that women enjoy naturally: the assurance that their children are actually theirs. And I don’t see why it should be a “luxury” only for those that can afford the test.

    Does this mean you are ok with regulating somehow that woman should be able to sleep around casually without any consequence of men not wanting to marry her later because men naturally enjoy that “luxury”now?

    Look, I am incredibly sympathetic to these men who have been cuckholded and I think they should bear zero responsibility for the child, however, mandatory testing is going too far. I know many, many men who would rather been held down and prison raped than allow their DNA and the DNA of their children be put into some state vault. There is no way that those results would just be thrown away afterward and I am surprised that many of you do not mind just freely giving up that information without thought to what our wonderfully honest politicians might think to do with that information somewhere down the road. You know, sort of like what our Social Security numbers are used for now.

  • Passer_By

    @badger

    “I don’t think you know what you’re talking about. False paternity is estimated at 10%. Would you get on a plane that had a failure rate of 10% without asking to see its safety certifications? ”

    Look, it either will or will not happen to you. If you did your research and made sure you were on a good plane, you’d be in the 90%

  • Escoffier

    From what I have read, the overall false paternity rate is more like 4%.

  • deti

    Badger:

    “This is exactly what I said above about women showing empathy for the risks men face. Men have been asked to show tremendous empathy for the risks women face.

    Actually, most of the risks women face have been managed and reduced legislatively to the point of negligibility. Men are being asked not only to show empathy, but to assume many of those risks for their women. In fact, many of those risks have been legally shifted from women to men.

  • Malia

    –LOL, yup, I laughed when I read that. Clearly, someone ditched their statistics classes.–

    Actually this someone could run circles around you in statistics.

    The thing is you’re mixing the concept statistics with probabilities.

    They are not the same.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Sasha,

    You are talking male statistics. Malia is talking female statistics. Rules are different the biggest difference being no concept of past/history. So in that frame-work she is correct – the plane either falls down or not. 0 or 1.

    I never considered *female statistics*. Do you think thats the case?

    Sounds more like early infancy reasoning to me.

    It also promotes a faith-bias. If risky / fatal stuff can either happen or not, that means 50% of chance. But if it rarely happens (not close to 50%) what could justify it? how do you rationalize that? -> shit doesnt happen to me because Im a good person / Im being rewarded / I dont deserve it / shit only happens to shitty people / and the like.

  • Sasha

    Mandatory paternity testing seems to go overboard given rather low chances of switcharoo in “high-confidence” cases. Some counseling with advisory to test for “low-confidence” men seems like a less wasteful policy.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Malia,

    Yes it is. There is an overall percentage of it happening amongst a population. Yet for an INDIVIDUAL either it happens or it does not. if it happens 3.7 times out of 100, when it comes to one person, it either is 0 or 100.

    No.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Stingray, there is already HIPPA law which protects patient health information (PHI). I don’t doubt that this would be a legal minefield, but every law that benefits people in some way had advocates.

    As an aside, in the age of bio, nuclear and high-tech weapons, trying to go down to smaller and smaller government with fewer and fewer laws would be quite impractical.

    @Charm, a cute young girl with a nice voice and demeanor can get away with saying a lot. The “consequences” for you and me might be ostracization from female groups, but what happens to guys is a lot different.

    Too much courage in the face of known negative outcomes is just foolishness.

  • Tom

    Ted infidelity and cuckold are inseperatable. yeah it would be life changing if I found my son or daughter were not mine, but so would being raped at Gun point.
    Personally I do not think the average Joe on the street thinks of cuckolding as a forethought in picking a wife. Guys here, Im sure it is a concern but most guys, not so much.

    @ Susan.. I saw the corn references right away…lol too funny.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Oops, that should read HIPAA.

  • Charm

    @Ted

    Im not speaking for “women” as a whole. If there was mandatory paternity testing and it was a law I wouldn’t kick up dust about it. However, I, personally wouldn’t like it. But Im just one person and laws aren’t enacted based off just one person, so considering the numbers (10% according to badger) which could be underrepresented, I think the law would be relevant. I would back it, simply because that 10% is 10% too many if you ask me.

    Now try asking a feminist or women heavily influenced by feminist ideals, and your results might vary.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    The cuckolding thing is an issue that women will never “get” the way men get it. Likewise men will never “get” some of the visceral anxieties that women can and do experience, like being left destitute with children to care for or perceiving your man to be a super-beta wimp that won’t be able to do anything to your benefit in society.

    The best we can really do is ask both sides to make an effort to be empathic with the other, and to accept some reasonable limits on their “trust” and other such concepts in the aim of having a system that discourages bad behavior.

    It’s sadly clear in the cuckolding discussion that a lot of women aren’t interested in even this. They are more concerned with not feeling “judged” than in having a system that, as a whole, prevents men from being defrauded and prevents children from being raised by the wrong fathers.

  • deti

    @ Stingray:

    “mandatory testing is going too far. I know many, many men who would rather been held down and prison raped than allow their DNA and the DNA of their children be put into some state vault.”

    This is an overreaction. You have a very different understanding of MPT. All neonates have blood draws done for all sorts of necessary medical testing: complete blood counts and basic metabolic profiles, and other things. The purpose is to assess the newborn’s overall health.

    All that I would require is that the father and child are tested for paternity after birth with the blood used for this testing. The only difference is the father’s blood is drawn too, if he wants. The results go into the neonate’s medical record, either paternity match or paternity nonmatch. They aren’t reported to a governmental agency.

  • Malia

    Just one last thing about this paternity and I’m done with it:

    You won’t be able to mandate it. Maybe as a requirement to get a court order for child support, but even then a man can voluntarily declare paternity. When there is a labor and delivery the mother and the baby are the patient, not the male.

    Even all the newborn and maternal testing is done on the female and child. There is no one mandatory test done on the father, it is suggested or recommended but not mandated, if there are suspected genetic issues.

    At best, you can mandate the DNA info of the child can be captured and analyzed so that if the father chooses, he can request his results be compared to that, but you can’t make him take the test. Like what penalty could you impose? Oh if you don’t submit to mandatory DNA testing… then what? What do you do when father not present, or not even in the country (anchor babies)?

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Yes it is. There is an overall percentage of it happening amongst a population. Yet for an INDIVIDUAL either it happens or it does not. if it happens 3.7 times out of 100, when it comes to one person, it either is 0 or 100.”

    This is such a common fallacy that it is debunked on the first day of any college probability course (including the two that I’ve taken).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This is such a common fallacy that it is debunked on the first day of any college probability course (including the two that I’ve taken).

      I once had a doctor tell me that everyone would eventually get AIDS (this was in the 90s) because for any individual, it’s either yes or no. I was so alarmed, not just by the statistics fail, but by the epidemiology fail, that I was speechless.

  • deti

    @ Anna

    Re your question of marrying single mothers: If I were single, I would not consider a single mother for marriage. Too complicated.

    1. I would have to deal with the baby daddy. Uhhh, no.
    2. As a practical matter, I would end up supporting her children from the previous relationship.
    3. The child will never fully accept me as a father figure and has full reason to defy me and my rules.
    4. The child would be a living, breathing reminder that my wife found another man more suitable for reproduction before she found me suitable for marriage.

  • Stingray

    Hope,

    And there were laws in place that said that my Social Security number was only to be used for me to pay into Social Security and for me to receive my benefits. The state didn’t like this law and changed it to suit their needs.

    There is also this thing called due process that is pretty much null and void now with the signing of the National Defense Authorization Act.

    Laws can be changed and instead of mandating that everyone must go through this testing, how about focusing on the people this actually happens to and make it easier for them to not have to support a child that is not theirs.

  • Anna

    I first thought “how much can a paternity test possibly cost?” but then I remembered US’ idiotic private system and of course, it’s not free. I might add that in the case of a planned pregnancy, this shouldn’t be a problem. If you can’t afford a test of less than $1000, you really can’t afford children either, IMO. I know that’s not the question though.

    I think mandatory paternity tests would change a lot. It would also force a moral shift – all women know the truth will come out anyway, meaning they will be forced to be honest, or even given an incentive not to whore around (although I think there are many enough reasons for that already, but unfaithful people are not exactly rational). While we’re at it, I’d support mandatory STD testing for everyone every now and then. But with the awful health care in the US and the current economy, you can barely afford any of it anyway, so I doubt it’s realistic.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It would also force a moral shift – all women know the truth will come out anyway, meaning they will be forced to be honest, or even given an incentive not to whore around

      Agreed. Incentives drive behavior. Increase the chance of getting caught to 100%, and you’ll see a big change in behavior.

  • Zach

    @Malia

    I’m definitely taking your view on this. In fact, next time I’m crossing the street, I’ll make sure to cross with 50 cars heading my way on a green light, all within 20 feet of me. The “statistics” may say I have a 95% chance of being hit, but the outcomes are either I am or I’m not going to be hit, and of course I’m fine with 50/50.

    Seriously, I don’t even know where to begin. You’re deeply confusing the possible set of results with the probability those results will happen. Just because an action has two outcomes absolutely does not mean those outcomes are equally likely. Try taking the GMAT with your “statistics” and see how well that works out.

  • Malia

    –This is such a common fallacy that it is debunked on the first day of any college probability course (including the two that I’ve taken).–

    I didn’t say the probability of it happening. I said the statistic of it happening.

  • Lokland

    @ Malia

    Your right.
    The issue is side stepping the distrust involved in asking wifey for the test.

    I want to poke at a few things and ask you a few questions. Hope you don’t mind.

    In the future our entire genome will likely be sequenced to provide personal medicine. Paternity testing will literally involve looking at mom, dad and babies genome then saying yes or no. Would this qualify as an acceptable means of paternity testing?

    If you agree then its already possible. The routine battery of tests done for diseases can also be used to check for paternity. I don’t know about the states but in Canada we also have the parents tested beforehand to test for any complications so that information is also already present.
    Therefore the extra leg-work involved would be
    i) adding the “true paternity” tick box
    ii) letting a computer check the results against each other.
    iii) getting a techie to make the computer program do step ii

    Its really that simple. It can be done at no extra cost now. Not in a few years or decades. Today, right now for no extra money. (Or atleast so little as to be irrelavant.)

    Does this change your stance on whether or not MPT (horrible acronym btw it just doesn’t sound good) is reasonable?

    @ Susan

    I don’t think your getting the amount of respect/appreciation you deserve for this.
    As one of the guys who asked for this, thank you. Your one of the few people who actually care about equality. Thank you.

    I promise to stfu about it now.

    @ Hollenhund

    I think your over doing it.
    Most women probably wouldn’t care about a male pill. There would be a few screamers in the feminist camp but they don’t represent the majority of normal, good women.

  • Charm

    @Hope

    While I might be young, cute I am not. I am about 7 inches too tall to be considered cute by any standard, but that was my first time being called cute so thanks.

    More seriously:

    I know men face consequences from women, but do they also face them from other men? If so, what are they?

    “Too much courage in the face of known negative outcomes is just foolishness.”

    I disagree with this. I think when it comes to social issues that there is no such thing as too much courage. At the end of the day someone has to do it. If you look at any major social movements in the U.S. Im sure every one of those people were called foolish.

  • Kathy

    Jesus Mahoney says,
    “deti,

    I may be an outlier, but I know many more like me. Most guys I know want to have a family one day, if they don’t already have one. And not because of easy access to sex.”

    You are most definitely not an outlier Jesus.

    I know of many guys like you, too. My husband was just like you (we have two kids) as were his four brothers(who are also all happily married with kids) As was my brother who is also married with kids.. My brother always wanted a son so that he could play cricket and football with him and take him fishing.. He got his wish.. :)

  • Sasha

    Yohami,

    I was partially joking with “female statistics” and contrasting it to “female logic”. That approach recognizes uniqueness of every situation in time/space and unavoidable leaps of faith one does one inducts from the past into the future (“male statistics”).

    Example: you had to pick “top airlines” to give your statistics. Had you picked “all airlines”. your statistics would be different – but you didn’t, because you form a separation between “good airlines” and “bad airlines”. Malia forms separation between “Malia on plane X” and “everything else”.

    Picking a proper reference group is an art of statistics that is pragmatic. But “pragmatic” ain’t truthful in a sense of correctly predicting future.

  • tvmunson

    IN RE PARKER

    Wanted to add some thoughts to the Parker analysis. You read may analysis of the legal result; like I said the Florida legislature is addressing the result. I’d like to discuss someone no one has mentioned, not here, not on any of the manosphere blogs, nowhere-the Parker boy. He was born in 1997; the Florida S. Ct. decision came down in 2007. The divorce was filed in 2001, and the boy’s status as illegitmate was not discovered until 2003, when he was 6.

    Think what he had lost. Sure he was little; but he knew who daddy was. He had already been through the separation, then divorce, of the only parents he had ever known. The DNA test was doen in response to a motion for contempt brought by Mrs. P, so Parker had fallen in arrears and went for a legal defense, lack of paternity.

    To hear this discussion, you’d forget there’s a boy involved. He’s part of the fraud; Parker got “punk’d” and this boy is the instrument used to do it.

    He’s left now with a duplicitous mother, a cuckolded (Parkers married in 1996-he was born nearly 2 years later, but apparently still in 1997)father, his illegitimacy splattered amongst headlines, blogspheres, whatever.

    Hitler once said “I won’t rest until every German considers it a disgrace to be a lawyer.” Sometimes I understand that a lot better than I want to.

    BTW I just feel sad for this little boy. You mano types, go ahead, tear me a new one.

  • Stingray

    This is an overreaction. You have a very different understanding of MPT.

    Possibly, but I do not think you understand how angry many MEN would be to be forced to have this done to them. It is still a file somewhere. Information that can be gotten a hold of and used. If you think I am overreacting, take this question to Vox Day, or the HSLDA, or and survival blog (all of these all skew very heavily toward men) and ask them what they would think of this. These MEN would be horrified and appalled at any such thing and would fight you tooth and nail to protect themselves and their families. I realize you think I am likely some cook. I don’t care. Hell, I would give it a 50% chance that Roissy might think this intervention going too far. Many MEN are sick of government in their lives. This adds more.

  • Tom

    40 percent of divorces are from infidelity or incompatability. Nothing frivolous there….Not sure what frivolous might be. Her eyes gross me out? Actually that would be a deal breaker..lol

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      40 percent of divorces are from infidelity or incompatability. Nothing frivolous there

      Isn’t compatiblity something that’s established well before marriage. Certainly two people should believe themselves to be highly compatible. If something changes dramatically, like one becomes a zealot Scientologist, I’d say there is probably grounds for divorce in time. But I suspect most people just use this as a cover for “no more tingle.”

      When people experience marital difficulty, I believe it is their obligation to do everything in their power to work it out. They need to communicate and do the hard work. What is never justifiable, in my view, is coming home one night and telling your spouse, “We’re no longer compatible, I want a divorce, and that’s final.” I think that happens frequently.

  • BroHamlet

    @Charm

    Im sure a woman who possessed doubt due to infidelity would breathe a huge sigh of relief.

    Which, to me, is better than paternity fraud. No harm no foul, at least you can work through that sort of infidelity. I don’t really have a huge fear of fraud happening to me, but I’d walk without hesitation if I found out that it did. I really can’t see forgiving someone for that level of betrayal.

    @Malia

    Yes it is. There is an overall percentage of it happening amongst a population. Yet for an INDIVIDUAL either it happens or it does not. if it happens 3.7 times out of 100, when it comes to one person, it either is 0 or 100.

    Sort of- this isn’t an accurate description. A higher incidence of a given outcome among a sample of individuals that you belong to DOES make that outcome more likely to happen to you as an individual if you belong to that sample. Example: Racial profiling- if profiling is a widespread phenomenon with no accountability for those who commit it, and you are a minority, your chances with any one cop are 50/50 based on the number of possible outcomes, but since you belong to a specific sample of individuals that are susceptible to the problem, the probability IS higher that you will end up in the situation where there is a possible negative outcome (where your 50/50 chance would apply) than someone who does not belong to that sample group.

    The statistics on a macro scale dictate the probability that a certain situation will arise. So for your actual probability on an individual we are probably talking about Independent Probability as described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability

    Something more like:
    P(infidelity) * P(macro scale percentage of men in your group) * 0.5

  • Malia

    –Does this change your stance on whether or not MPT (horrible acronym btw it just doesn’t sound good) is reasonable?–

    Let me make my argument clear:

    As far as genetic recording goes, this can go all the way to a Gattica like country for all I care. That’s really not my issue. My issue is that the genetic testing is being used to avoid dealing with the real issue at hand and it actually doesn’t resolve an issue.

    Sure, it reduces cuckholdry (again, you can’t make the male get tested), but this was brought up in the context of marriage and I’ve said repeatedly that most cases of cuckholdry are outside marriage.

    No one refutes this.

    Yet we keep discussing cuckholdry as being a big deal when it comes to marriage.

    – let me take a step back and present the argument differently:

    I find there to be little reliability into about marriage from men who aren’t getting married or are not married. I think people can conjure all sorts of reasons. I would be more interested in looking at the info of men who are married or are getting married and asking them what their deterrents are/were.

    My position is that a lot of this is posturing and I think that there are ways that men and women have learned to use this to their advantage. Men can use it to get certain behavioral shifts from women (again, only under the premise that they MIGHT CONSIDER commitment) women adopt it and they end up making the changes under the premise that he MIGHT CONSIDER commitment.

    But in the end, I really truly don’t believe that this is going to change anything, get anybody married or in LTRs happily. No, I don’t. Seen it before and it didn’t play out that way. 10-20 years down the road, marriage rates will be worse, divorce worse, out of wedlock births much higher and these very same women will be scratching their heads like “how did we get here.”

  • Höllenhund

    „For example, he has often demanded I read this or that, write about this or that, come up with stats for this or that. Yet when I write a post that should please him, what does he express?”

    Whoa, let’s just stop right there. I never made such demands. What I, along with other commenters, did do is call your attention to Devlin’s works because they provide the sort of unorthodox and accurate observations about the current SMP/MMP that are useful for a blog such as this. I find it strange that you dismiss him as a charlatan out of hand instead of actually looking at his writings. I did also implore to you to be the first blogger to write a post about the 80/20 rule, but I never demanded stats and never asked you to prove/disprove anything.

    „…Sorry, but that statement is hardly one I would swallow”

    …which is somewhat surprising, considering that Brendan, a commenter you admire, has stated exactly the same thing but in different words numerous times on Dalrock’s blog and elsewhere.

    „I view Hollenhund as a rather extreme MRA”

    LOL, no. I’m not engaged in any type of activism. Well, not yet anyway. I read many sorts of blogs and websites, the Manosphere is just one of them.

    „Moreover, men in every age group are more eager than women to have children. Even young men. Among those between ages 21 and 34, 51% of men want kids, while 46% of women yearn for young.”

    Well, duh. I suppose you’re aware that young men’ve been under tremendous social pressure to marry for centuries and have also been conditioned to view marriage and parenthood as de facto mandatory and honorable. It’s the only thing they, their fathers and their grandfathers have ever known. This pressure has eased somewhat – but only somewhat – on men in the last decades whereas in women’s case it has almost completely disappeared. The numbers Dr. Helen cites are hardly surprising.

    „Women recognized men, interested in children, amazingly precisely, and also pointed to men with highest level of testosterone. They chose men, who love children, for long relationships, and those who were more masculine – for short-term.”

    Again, hardly surprising. Women have traditionally wanted nothing but sperm from alphas and everything but sperm from betas. What’s your point?
    „Yes, many of them did because children were a labor resource.”

    Um, yeah…peasant men, like most other men throughout history, probably had foggy plans to become fathers at some point in their lives, when they accumulated wealth, gained some stable social status and were prepared to forego all personal autonomy. True. But, you see, they normally became one accidentally way before that point was reached…because they wanted to shoot their loads, and contraceptives didn’t exist and they were careless anyway. Result: brats.

    Look, I’ve discussed this issue with other female bloggers, namely Alte and Morticia. They argued that middle-class men with stable careers normally reach a level of maturity in their 30s when they seriously start thinking about having a genetic legacy and building a family. Well, yeah. No disagreement on that one. My point is that the overwelming majority of fathers throughout history weren’t yet in such a position WHEN they became fathers. They were young, generally poor and careless lads.

    „Including condoms, which are 98% effective when used properly.”

    Yeah…when used properly. But many young guys going crazy with hormones aren’t using them properly.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      Yeah…when used properly. But many young guys going crazy with hormones aren’t using them properly.

      And do you think those young guys would be reliable in swallowing a male Pill every morning?

  • Tom

    Stingray, good point about the possible abuse of our DNA info by the government… Im not so sure it wont be mandatory to give DNA by everyone, just like fingerprints are now while applying for a security licence etc. Big brother is watching more and more all the time. While the sheeple just mill around not noticing our freedoms disappearing daily

  • Mike C

    Actually this someone could run circles around you in statistics.

    The thing is you’re mixing the concept statistics with probabilities.

    They are not the same.

    Probably not. I know I am opening myself up here to “boastfulness” but I’ve got a bachelors in electrical engineering and was in Tau Beta Pi (Engineering Honor Society). I’ve got a MBA in finance from at top 20 school. I’ve been a math geek for a very long time and I’m a STEM guy. Just curious, are you a lawyer with a humanities undergrad?

    During both my undergrad and graduate programs, I had classes in Engineering Statistics and Business Statistics. The term as colloquially used refers to the entire body of knowledge of statistical analysis including basic probability analysis and more advanced stuff like Baye’s Theorem and conditional probabilities, optimization, linear regression, etc. Do you know what any of that is without Googling it? I know we got some female STEMs like Hope who I wish would chime in and call out your BS here. You are a very adept verbalizer, actually one of the best I’ve seen here which makes me wonder if you are a lawyer, but your logical reasoning and critical thinking is way off which is why I mostly haven’t engaged you until this total FAIL on thje probability comment.

    I think your buddy Jhane is a tech type so go talk to her and she should be able to correct you here.

    There is ex ante and ex post facto. It doesn’t even make sense to talk about probabilities after something has already occurred or not occurred. Of course, once something has happened the ex post facto was 100%. But that is just stating the obvious. From a math perspective, sheer nonsense. Before it happens, there is some probability X based on either past analysis of the population or the a sample within the population.

    I’m not sure if Sasha was kidding or not. Obviously, there is no such thing as male or female statistics, but your comment is pretty scary because it shows the effetive verbalizers can be piss poor quantitative thinkers.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I know I am opening myself up here to “boastfulness”

      No worries, Jess isn’t around.

  • Malia

    –Probably not. I know I am opening myself up here to “boastfulness”–

    I will concede, I was wrong when I made that comment. Thank you for handing me my ass gracefully.

    –Just curious, are you a lawyer with a humanities undergrad?–

    No

  • Mike

    @passerby 438

    Look, it either will or will not happen to you. If you did your research and made sure you were on a good plane, you’d be in the 90%

    This is starting to sound like a discussion Rainman would have.

    What’s the female equivalent of flying Qantas?

  • Mike C

    >I said the statistic of it happening

    “Statistic of it happening”??? Are you f’n serious? This is gibberish, pure and simple.

    There are probabilities and outcomes/results. You have probability X for outcome/result Y. Once the result/outcome is known, thats it. There are no retroactive numbers you can apply to it. Before the result/outcome was known, each outcome had its own probability.

    We are all entitled to our own opinions, but we are not entitled to essentially create a “new math”.

  • Babydoll

    “Virtually all girls have options for sex. Yet many reject casual sex, and waste no time pursuing “alpha genes.””

    Yes!

  • Tom

    Susan you could be right. If a person just comes home and says, “we are not compatable, I want out” that is a BS reason. But I see people growing apart, or even getting to the place where their own lifestyles or goals in life could get in the way of marriage harmony. I dont see that as frivolous. Some people “think” they are compatable in the courtship phase because they are temporarely insaine with the rush of attatchment chemicals flooding their brain. Then a year or two down the road, her picking her teeth and his picking his toes isnt so cute anymore. Neither is her wild spending prees and his guys night out EVERY friday night. That is why I think a long courtship is a must. Give it time to think rationally.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That is why I think a long courtship is a must.

      I don’t think anyone should marry until they’ve seen all the annoying habits and worked through their own projection. If one does that, then divorcing for incompatibility is going to be frivolous in most cases.

      Marriage vows mean monogamy for life, ASAIAC, so do your due diligence early. If you don’t and then claim incompatibility later you’ve wronged someone twice.

  • deti

    On a lot of threads here, the conversation almost always returns toward one of the following themes:

    1. Female sexual promiscuity and how men view it as affecting a woman’s long term relationship/marriage suitability

    2. A woman’s overall character: her industry, honesty, integrity, bearing and demeanor

    3. What women bring to the table for LTRs or marriage beyond physical appearance and sexual compatibiility

    Appropos to the original post, women should grok this: The above three issues are very, very, VERY important to your future husband, even if he doesn’t tell you so explicitly. Proceed accordingly.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      Accurate observation and excellent advice to women.

  • Babydoll

    @Butterfly flower #203

    “My Japanese relatives/friends are supportive. Only American women denounce my engagement.”

    Wow that sounds insane. Why is this the case? Cultural differences?

  • Lokland

    @ Malia

    I agree with you. MPT won’t increase marriage rates or make people happy. It will prevent fraud, a crime from being commited.

    Society takes care to make sure that people are not likely to commit other crimes upon one another.Examples, DUI, arson etc. The main deterent is a form of punishment.
    The only way that punishment carries any weight is if there is a reasonable chance of being caught.
    Speeding wouldn’t be a crime if cop cars only went 50 and we didn’t have liscense plates.
    There is a punishment for women who cuckold but very little chance of being caught. An MPT would be similar to putting more cops on the streets looking for DUIs.
    I think we both agree that paternity fraud can be considered a crime.
    Therefore preventing that crime from occuring is actually the duty of society as the prevention of crime is what allows for a functional society to exist. (The classic society can’t exist if muder is allowed example.)

    MPT does two things.
    i) prevents a crime (I think neither of us would take issue with this)
    ii) side-steps the trust issue

    However ii does not invalidate i. I believe both of these are the true issues and MPT only deals with one. How to deal with ii, beats the hell out of me but I don’t think ii will be aggravated any further by MPT.

    As for the issue of cuckolding/paternity fraud typically occuring outside of marriage. Yes its true.
    However murders typically occur in the ghetto but police respond to 911 calls saying “someone just got murdered” equally in suburbia or the ghetto. (Or atleast most people would agree they should.)
    Therefore, in fairness the same preventitive measures should be taken in both marriage and non-marriage.

    Last, the issue of not having a daddy around for paternity testing. I would guess treatment the same as now when theres no daddy around cause he ran off. Theres really not much that can be done.

  • Malia

    –your logical reasoning and critical thinking is way off which is why–

    No, they are not.

    One thing I know, with certainty, is that with all discussion communities, when you are in agreement with “prevailing thought” you are praised, when you disagree, you are… insulted or even worse.

    I have witnessed it many times here depending upon what was my stance on a particular subject I fell on either side of the fence. Therefore, I don’t take it personally, I know my logical reasoning and critical thinking are tight, I just don’t come to the same conclusion as many here and that’s fine.

    I could agree with MPT and have no reason for agreeing, no thought or logic behind it, and it would be fine because that is where the winds are sifting. I don’t really fall in support of it and here come the insults “sociopath”, “b!tch”, un-empatetic, feminist whatever else. In fact, we can just make a list of names now and people can feel free to copy and paste each time to save keystrokes.

    At the end of the day I wonder how in the hell did I even get into a debate about something I don’t really care about anyway. Maybe I just need to stop, reading or stop commenting, or stop reading responses, but I digress. I could entirely change my position, write what people wanted to read, and get people to stop the insults and no one would say that my logical reasoning and critical thinking are flawed.

  • Jim

    Charm said, “I didn’t create it either. Some over privileged woman with no real problems in the world. A bunch of other over privileged women joined in, complained, took over, and screwed up a system that worked pretty well. Id rather not pay for it. I feel like people want a one size fits all approach. I don’t think that is possible.”

    Firstly, I’ve been away, so I haven’t been able to address any of the posts some of which are related to what I’ve written and posted. I’d also like to apologize to Susan for being responsible for derailing a brilliant post about the risks that men face in marriage vis-a-vis cuckoldry and the legal obligations associated with that very uncommon(1-25 or 1-30 odds) scenario by posting what I did. I meant to compliment Susan’s post, not upstage it. All that was intended was to present some other facets of relationships, marriage, and the law that were punitive against men and were not conducive to marriage. My apologies for derailing it with an unlikely hypothetical.

    Anecdotally, FWIW, in the ‘Sexual Double Standard Cuts Both Ways’ thread I posted(post #612) about my beta-male cousin who was cheated on with his lawyer wife with a full partner in her law firm. She walked away with all the stuff and the money from my cousin in the divorce, and secured her employment by having an affair with the full partner in an act of efficient crystalline ruthlessness. Well, there was one detail I didn’t include in that which as that after the affair and before the divorce was finalized, it came out that the wife was pregnant but went and got an abortion. My beta-cousin ‘thinks’ the kid was his.

    Now, for my penance I will write NAWALT 1000 times on the chalkboard.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @jim

      No problem, we have some pretty interesting OT convos here. I generally let people wander if they’re not trolling.

  • Tom

    485 deti January 11, 2012 at 5:10 pm
    On a lot of threads here, the conversation almost always returns toward one of the following themes:

    1. Female sexual promiscuity and how men view it as affecting a woman’s long term relationship/marriage suitability

    2. A woman’s overall character: her industry, honesty, integrity, bearing and demeanor

    3. What women bring to the table for LTRs or marriage beyond physical appearance and sexual compatibiility

    Appropos to the original post, women should grok this: The above three issues are very, very, VERY important to your future husband, even if he doesn’t tell you so explicitly. Proceed accordingly.

    ___________________
    Got this from the askmen site. I know there is only 41 poll takers, but…just saying……

    Too many sexual partners if you want a serious relationship???

  • Malia

    –“Statistic of it happening”??? Are you f’n serious? This is gibberish, pure and simple.–

    Yes I am serious. The question was asked in a strange way and I gave an answer that could have been stated better, but yes. When I wrote the response I said I didn’t know the average risk of dying on a plane crash, therefore either I die or I don’t, that’s what I have to look at when I decide to get on a plane.

  • Tom

    View Poll Results: How many partners is Ok with you when looking for your next serious partner?Voters 41. You may not vote on this poll Less than 10
    15 36.59% 10-20
    3 7.32% 21-30
    0 0% 30+
    0 0% It doesn’t matter regardless
    23 56.10%

  • tvmunson

    Cheerful #467

    Sorry for the Hitler ref. But it got it said. On my life if my little boy turned out not to be mine it would not change anything. I am his father. I didn’t know what love was until his luminous blue eyes looked inot mine, literally the very first thing he ever sawin this life (adept OB). Like I said, I thought I knew what “love” was but in that instant I learned the difference between that love and the real one, the one that would make you able to cut off your leg with a rusty tin can if you had to for him. I learned it Jan. 20, 1989 @ 6:26 and 30 seconds p. m. MST. I can still feel the resistance as I cut the umbilical cord as if I’m doing it this second. A splatter of semen would change nothing.

  • Höllenhund

    Kathy is back with parading her personal anecdotes as arguments. As usual.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      Sorry, I’ve been trying different things today to improve the spam filtering, as suggested by the host company. You got caught in the crossfire, as did Munson.

      Unfortunately, I have not solved the problem. I’m not sure it can be solved, but I will continue to seek an answer.

  • Tom

    I feel better knowing I have a 0ne in nine million chance of crashing. To me that is more comforting than either I die or I dont. it tells me in ALL likelyhood I wont crash.

  • Charm

    @Tom

    “Too many sexual partners if you want a serious relationship???”

    Wait, I don’t understand. Are you saying this ISN’T relevant? I know all the data about sex partners and odds of being faithful in the relationship and blah blah blah, but at the very least having lower sex partners reflects your preparation for marriage.

    No one is expecting a late 20 something to be a virgin but if all you’ve done is sleep around and you haven’t realized that marriage=inability to sleep around then you’re a fool. People really think change of behavior is that simple don’t they.

    Deti’s list was absolutely right. I think, for both men and women.

  • jess

    “That is why I think a long courtship is a must. Give it time to think rationally.”

    Wise words…..

  • Just1X

    Malia’s pretty good at ignoring facts and questions that don’t suit her, I don’t see that as being very gifted at anything much. And making up statistics about it not being a marriage issue, but to be fair she clearly doesn’t understand statistics.

    Came across this piece of delight; ‘Some feminists claim that no woman committs “paternity fraud” but rather has “misattributed paternity” .’

    So that’s alright then, move along no fraud here, just a whiff of misattribution.

    Looks like fathers who are doubtful…31% are correct – not their kid.
    Fathers in general…4%

    However, other figures exist;

    http://www.australiancrc.com.au/australiancrc_com_au/Paternity_Testing_Australia/Mandatory_Paternity_Testing_in_Australia_and_Child_Rights.aspx

    Paternity fraud rates are as high as 10% or about 30,000 Australian children each year. Out of the total population of Australia, that might mean that 2,200,000 people are victims of paternity fraud

    Various statstics are available on the internet regarding the rates of paternity fraud.

    In America, some fathers rights advocates claim a paternity fraud rate of 30%. When researched, they are found to be often referring to the statistics from the American Association of Blood Banks ( AABB), an organization which accredits paternity testing laboratories. Upon further examination, the 30% statistics comes from tests done in cases in which a man already questioned paternity and therefore initiated a DNA paternity test.

    In an article published in The Globe and Mail, Canada’s largest national newspaper, a senior geneticist at The Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto, Ontario, one of the top children’s hospitals in the world, stated that 10% of Canadians were victims of paternity fraud. To read the article click here

    Some feminist scholars in Australia state that the paternity fraud rate is about 1% which would mean that 220,000 Australian have been defrauded by their mothers and denied a realtionship with their biological father and their heritage. Some feminists claim that no woman committs “paternity fraud” but rather has “misattributed paternity” . Every reasonable debate on this subject by men and women recognizes that women should know whether or not they have had sex and with whom and that women should undertake to determine the identity of their child’s father immediately after birth or as soon as technologically possible.”

    http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=2496

    “American federal statistics show that around 31% of men who requested a paternity test during the court process of establishing parentage were excluded as the father of the child. In one particular jurisdiction, unmarried fathers were encouraged to submit to a DNA test prior to accepting paternity. As many as 50% of these transpired not to be the biological father. According to the US Men’s Health Network, studies in America have revealed that between 14% and 20% of children whose parents are married are not actually the children of their mother’s husband.”

  • Malia

    –i) prevents a crime (I think neither of us would take issue with this)–

    I agree with this.

    And yes, you make a valid argument. I don’t see it playing out as simply as that, though. And, before when you said that it should be by request (tick a check box), that seems more reasonable.

    –MPT would be similar to putting more cops on the streets looking for DUIs.—

    No, not really. It would be the equivalent of pulling EVERYONE over for a breathalyzer to catch more drunk drivers.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Malia,

    I said I didn’t know the average risk of dying on a plane crash, therefore either I die or I don’t, that’s what I have to look at when I decide to get on a plane.

    This is like the cat on the safe experiment. But applied where it makes no sense.

  • Tom

    Sorry Charm that was supposed to be a link from askmen dot com. it shows the poll a couple post down. It showed 56% of those men says her past doesnt matter.

  • Mike C

    I once had a doctor tell me that everyone would eventually get AIDS (this was in the 90s) because for any individual, it’s either yes or no. I was so alarmed, not just by the statistics fail, but by the epidemiology fail, that I was speechless.

    Susan,

    OMG. That is terrifying. I would have walked out immediately. How in God”s name did that person pass medical school?

    OT, but probabilities and thinking probabilitistically is something that trips up most people. My first day of business statistics the prof did the famous Monte do you switch door question. Another one in behavioral finance was pick the lowest number closest to the average of what the rest of the class picks.

    On the Monte door switching problem, to give credit it was a WOMAN who made a bunch of guys look like idiots. This was many years ago and Marilyn Vos Savant (smartest person in the world) answered correctly that you switch doors. She got actual answers from male math professors that she was wrong. Scary. One of the frightening things out there is that many people who claim expertise in field X really are not as competent as you would think.

  • Malia

    –Malia’s pretty good at ignoring facts and questions that don’t suit her,–

    No.

    For one, I’m not going to spend ALL my time replying to everything.

    Secondly, when you respond, I know when I’m being incited (like being implied as a sociopath) so I skip the rest.

    Third, I don’t read outside articles unless I want to.

    Fourth, I won’ be forced to discuss a different aspect of the conversation.

    I don’t blog for a living, or blog at all, therefore, there’s really no “benefit” to me to participate in the discussions here. Because of that, I respond to what I want to respond to because of the time that it takes to respond.

    No ill intent, no avoidance. Even now, I have spent way too much time on this. So if I don’t reply, it’s because of that.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    It’s also a very low chance that a pregnant woman has HIV, but all women are screened for it unless they specifically opt out of testing. They draw a lot of blood, too.

    @Stingray, I think if HIPAA failed to protect us, the info leak of exactly who my baby’s father is, would bother me far less than a complete history of my medical records getting in the wrong hands. And my medical records are out there already.

    The NDAA has been in place for many decades and has been changed/updated for 2012 with anti-terrorism stuff. I don’t like it either, but we do live in a supposed democracy. The laws can be changed again to protect citizens better.

    I agree that the legislative / political system is flawed, but many other groups (corporations, unions, churches, etc.) have used it successfully to achieve their goals. Now comes a group of men who want this thing, and I ain’t gonna tell them “no way” just because the system is flawed.

  • Tom

    btw.. when a person is in love, I think behavior is easily affected and or changed. That has been my experience anyway. Most people understand the difference between a single life style and a married lifestyle. some people just need a reason to change.

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    @Susan

    “And do you think those young guys would be reliable in swallowing a male Pill every morning?”

    FWIW, there are internet reports (must be true) of a pill per month, 3 months, or a year. Yeah, I think men’ll do that with a non-hormonal pill – to protect themselves, the women should protect themselves.

    I’ll hunt out some links tomorrow – too late here

  • deti

    Bringing it back to Susan’s OP:

    1. Female sexual promiscuity and how men view it as affecting a woman’s long term relationship/marriage suitability (LOW RISK)

    2. A woman’s overall character: her industry, honesty, integrity, bearing and demeanor (STERLING CHARACTER)

    3. What women bring to the table for LTRs or marriage beyond physical appearance and sexual compatibiility (HIGH VALUE)

  • Lokland

    @ Malia

    “No, not really. It would be the equivalent of pulling EVERYONE over for a breathalyzer to catch more drunk drivers.”

    I don’t know if this occurs in the states but in Canada we have RIDE programs. Basically cops stand at a certain stretch of highway and check EVERYONE who drives by. Only breathalyze the obviously impaired most of the time its just “this is a RIDE blah, blah … have a good night”
    So your statement doesn’t seem strange to me.

    Other than that I agree with most of what your saying. Tick box noted, mulling it over.

    @ Just1X

    I did my undergrand in genetics and biochem. I did my honours thesis working in a clinical lab. They did new born screens, no way in hell is it anywhere near 10% that dude was fear mongering.
    The 3.7% figure seems to be really close to accurate as an overall percentage.
    Some days were strange though, like all women decided to ovulate and cuckold on the same day. In the 20-30% range these were just random days but VERY rare.

  • Babydoll

    @Hope

    “1) Don’t drink alcohol, smoke anything, do any drugs, or partake of the partying lifestyle.

    2) Do not engage in sexual activity with men outside of serious, long-term relationships.

    3) Save up, live frugally, pay off loans as much as possible, and do not incur any credit card debt.

    4) Get good at cooking, cleaning and general housekeeping, and make these a habit.

    5) Learn to enjoy a major male-oriented hobby, such as sports, video games, shooting, poker, etc.

    6) Stop indulging in fantasies of a big diamond ring, a big dream wedding, and a big, extravant honeymoon. Plan for a simple band, a courthouse wedding, and save up for a nest egg.

    7) Be humble, practice gratitude, exercise willpower, avoid drama, let go of entitled attitudes and behaviors, see things from the male perspective, and strive to be a mature, emotionally-healthy adult.”

    This is good advice Hope and would pass on each one to my friends except for maybe #5. Fine if you already enjoy these activities, but forcing it seems a bit contrived to me. I am a bit nerdy myself and used to play computer games but there were very few men who wanted to know about it. One of them even said that his friends were there for video games, why would he want to spend time with me playing video games? SIM City anyone?

  • Stingray

    but we do live in a supposed democracy.

    No we don’t. We live in a republic.

    The laws can be changed again to protect citizens better.

    A law that says it can detain it’s citizens indefinitely without due process is not thinking of the safety of it’s citizens. This is bordering on tyranny.

    Now comes a group of men

    Yes, one group of men. I know another, very large group of men, that would be utterly and completely appalled by this topic. They would fight tooth and nail to stop it. And it is not because they would not have sympathy for the men who have been cuckholded. It is because they’ve seen enough destroying of men by the government and do not want to see any more. This is the same government that gave us feminism. I have no trust for them and I am by no means alone in my thinking.

  • Malia

    –This is like the cat on the safe experiment. But applied where it makes no sense.–

    Let me clear this up hopefully once and for all.

    The statistic introduced of false paternity happening 3.7% of the time. I said I didn’t see it as that big of an issue.

    What Deti was going for was if planes crashed 3.7% of the time would you still get on the plane without asking questions.

    I replied that I didn’t know what the average was for plane crashes (didn’t look it up) [didn't know if that 3.7% compared] so I get on the plane because either I die or I don’t.

    I did not state anything about the probability of dying.

    No one has introduced the probability of cuckholdry, just the occurrence.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    And do you think those young guys would be reliable in swallowing a male Pill every morning?

    If I were a male Susan Walsh I would say that is a misandrist remark. Whether its true or not.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And do you think those young guys would be reliable in swallowing a male Pill every morning?

      If I were a male Susan Walsh I would say that is a misandrist remark. Whether its true or not.

      Even though I am basing that question on the fact that women are not reliable in swallowing the Pill? Would men be better than women at it? If I were a misogynist Yohami I would say, “Yes, because all women are unreliable.”

  • tvmunson

    Just 1

    First of all dude I like you. You had my back over on Dalrock a while ago and I appreciate it. So take this as coming from a friend. If you want to avoid all, or practically all, of the hassle the law can toss at ya’ as a guy in the domestic relations context I got one word-vasectomy. I had one in ’93-it was nothing. And if you do dude you’re as set as Jimmy Hoffa in the NJ Turnpike off ramp. If a chick wants to marry you, fine, no kids and you can make it stick (unlike some of us: BTW reversal is a bear-nine hours of surgeons on your johnson, and no guarantees). Get a pre-nup, which, w/o kids, is almost a dunk to be upheld (stick to property issues-none of this I- get-to-bang-around shit). You’re free dude. While you’re unmarried if some bitch tries the oldest trick in the book, you say “good for you, but it ain’t mine-now get your sorry pregnant ass out of here-you’re starting to show”. Walk your talk Just, all in baby-and fuck the River card you’ll never ever see it. Why gamble when you don’t need to? “Just one snip and it fell so hard” (D. Troy; L.Ronstadt)

    Uncle Tom wouldn’t lie to you.

  • Jonny

    Marriage is impossible if women don’t know how to be wives. Women have turned the marriage demands around. They were the ones that increased the price that men no longer want to pay.

    The list of reasons that men don’t want to marry left off the qualities that men can’t find in women.

    Men can’t find women that…

    1. Prioritize them, the couple, and their future families, before the women, as individuals.

    2. Women who will leave the nest. They continue to put their parents before husbands.

    3. Women who will cook, clean, and manage the household. This 50-50% sharing of household tasks is really a ruse for women to shift 100% of responsibilities to men.

    4. Women who will put their earned income into a joint account for the benefit of the family. They are spending their income on themselves as if they are single.

    5. Women who will not insist on a diamond rings and other luxuries well before they earned it or deserve it.

    6. Women who are not Bridezillas. They are not princess now and forever. They won’t spend beyond their ability to pay.

    7. Women who are not sluts, including women who still maintain emotional connections with former boyfriends and ex-husbands.

    8. Women who have morals that are firm and not easily bendable to whims or their girlfriends’ gossips.

    There could be more to this list.

    The list of frivolous divorces should include everything on that list that excludes the first four items (infidelity, drug abuse, physical abuse, and financial problems). I do think breaking up for “unreconciliable differences” is frivolous as that is the main reason for most divorces.

    What’s funny is women don’t realize that when they break up, their ex-husbands are the ones that benefit the most. They are at the edge of their expiration date when men are just beginning. Men can still find women to marry and have children. This is true for me.

  • Babydoll

    @deti

    “Repentance starts a former slut on a new life, but it doesn’t erase or reduce partner counts. It doesn’t cure STDs. It doesn’t rewrite history. Also, it’s not a one shot deal; it’s a completely new way of life. That has to be learned, and that’s a process. Once you stop your slutting it up, you have to live that out every day. Sometimes it means working through things; getting counseling, discarding damaging friends and unhealthy relationships.”

    +1

    I am suspicious of any woman who suddenly wants to start over after over 20 years of slutting it up. I would wonder if it was a genuine attempt. I do believe in giving people chances though, but not a free pass with no consequences.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Babydoll, I have tried out every single one on #5. And yes guys love playing video games together with their girlfriends. If nothing else, it’s a good way to meet men and get them to demonstrate their superior skills to you.

    Also it doesn’t have to be nerdy. I know a woman who sometimes goes golfing, another who enjoys skiing, and another who likes hiking / camping in the mountains here. These are traditionally male hobbies, and they have husbands who love doing stuff with them.

  • Anna

    @ Hope
    I agree with your list as well, except for a few points.
    - I would not refrain from alcohol. obviously a party lifestyle is not beneficial is you’re looking for a life partner, but a glass of wine has never hurt anyone and I want to enjoy life with my significant other. Furthermore, I hardly know a man who doesn’t drink whatsoever. In fact the only two I can think of are party promoters and recovering alcoholics. Everybody else drinks socially, including the guys most girls want to be with.
    - I don’t participate in any typical “male” activities, and I would find it somewhat ridiculous to force myself to it just to fit someone. I don’t expect a man to participate in female activities. Furthermore, the only point with doing so would be to fit a future husband, but you’ll never know which he is fond of, and it meaningless to spend time taking up videogames only to meet a man who is not into whatsoever. Sports is always good and not typically “male”, apart from baseball and American football etc. I play tennis and see no reason to change that.
    - Live frugally. I’m no good at that, but it greatly depends on your personal economy as well as the man you’re dating. I’m hoping to meet someone who has about the same spending pattern or better. The important thing is to not bring credit card debt into a marriage and to solve any financial issues before it becomes a painful secret and later a mutual problem.

  • tvmunson

    Just1
    Fuck the pill! Vas on dude!

  • deti

    I don’t believe a spouse’s financial or employment problems are valid grounds for divorce.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I don’t believe a spouse’s financial or employment problems are valid grounds for divorce.

      I certainly think people should stay together through financial or employment crises – through thick and through thin. The exception I would make is when one partner is spending the family into extreme debt or gambling. Also, losing one’s job is one thing – getting fired repeatedly for failure to work well with others is something else.

      I put this in the legit list, but again, it’s all negotiable. There are marriages where loss of love may be justifiable, and others where claims of abuse are not. There are endless variations. What should be true, though, in every case, is that all efforts have been made to remedy problems with patience, support and a full commitment to saving the marriage.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Stingray, really? So do they prefer paternity testing to be done on an individual basis, or are they opposed to it altogether?

    Anyway, I was born and raised in China, and to me the US system is more democratic. Whenever I’ve said anything more political than that, I’ve usually gotten the “go back to China” remark. So I’ll just sidestep the rest of your comment, if you can understand.

  • http://tenfoured.blog.com HeligKo

    I never knew the work cuckold until some random porn email hit my email a few years back, but I would probably be counted as one during portions of my marriage. I had serious doubts when my wife was pregnant about who the father was. We have 4 kids, but the older 3 are all adopted. I went over the scenario again and again of how I would react if the baby was not mine. We had only had sex once in the time she would have had to got pregnant. I did have advantage of knowing that my wife prefers men of a different race than we both are, so I was pretty sure I would know. I never got a paternity test. I have no doubt she is mine.

    As for the comparisons to rape, I have to say it might sound absurd, but it is the closest thing I can find to compare it to. Take away the violent, beat the crap out of her rape scenarios. Lets go with the he has influence and doesn’t care that I said no and keeps going and it is going to cost me a lot to continue to say no scenario. Well as a married man in the Christian tradition, we are now one. He body is mine, and mine hers. He allowing another man to go where only I am supposed to go, and then having a child by that man emotionally at least for a man hits in the same part of the heart as the above scenario. I felt violated by that man, and would have done bad things to him if I had ever met him. That pain was also reflected on her. I saw that assault on our marriage whenever I looked at her. It could have been healed, but in the end she never wanted to do the things to give me comfort that this would never happen again. As a matter of fact she treated me with contempt for not sending her packing. That is where game might of saved me either 10 more years of pain or saved my marriage where sage Christian advice allowed her to view me as contemptible, and me to keep turning the other cheek until my feet hurt from all the blows.

  • Mike C

    Let me clear this up hopefully once and for all.

    The statistic introduced of false paternity happening 3.7% of the time. I said I didn’t see it as that big of an issue.

    What Deti was going for was if planes crashed 3.7% of the time would you still get on the plane without asking questions.

    I replied that I didn’t know what the average was for plane crashes (didn’t look it up) [didn't know if that 3.7% compared] so I get on the plane because either I die or I don’t.

    I did not state anything about the probability of dying.

    ***No one has introduced the probability of cuckholdry, just the occurrence.****

    Practically speaking, they are the same. Malia, stop digging.

    I’m going to try and help you here. You’ll hear the terms population and sample. So.

    If you have an entire population of results with a historical rate of incidence of X%, that is your best estimate of the probability for a sample going forward AS LONG AS the sample is representative of the population. So if we have a population of 5,000,000 women with a 3.7% rate of cuckholdry, and now we grab a sample of 10,000 at random, then 3.7% is the best estimate of what you’ll see. The smaller the sample, the more error you introduce especially if the sample deviates from the population in a meaningful way. We could get crazy with confidence intervals, error bands, etc. and if someone wanted to invalidate the estimate of future probability, you’d make the case the sample isn’t representative of the population.

    You didn’t understand the concept or argument here. That is OK. If you just swallowed your pride, you’d look better then trying to keep doing the bob and weave.

  • Escoffier

    “I don’t believe a spouse’s financial or employment problems are valid grounds for divorce.”

    If a man simply made no effort to earn income or find a job for a prolonged period (a year?) that could be grounds. Hard times and/or layoffs should not be.

    But all the gamers would say that if a man loses his job through no fault of his own and also can’t find another through no fault of his own, his woman will inevitably lose attraction for him. Unfair, maybe, but that’s life.

  • sonofagunforbeer

    Can we PLEASE turn this into a discussion of bayesian vs ftrequentist statistics so i can demonstrate my market value?

  • Malia

    —I don’t know if this occurs in the states but in Canada we have RIDE programs. Basically cops stand at a certain stretch of highway and check EVERYONE who drives by. Only breathalyze the obviously impaired most of the time its just “this is a RIDE blah, blah … have a good night”
    So your statement doesn’t seem strange to me.—

    I’d put my money on it that they do that either in high risk areas or at high risk times, because of the resources to do it it all the time in every area.

    Before, someone mentioned low confidence and high confidence and it’s mandating testing even in cases where there’s high confidence. My point is that a father doesn’t need the mother’s permission for DNA testing (unless it’s in utero), all he needs is the kid and himself.

    Maybe even the father can request it on his own, if that’s the issue, as part of the newborn testing, without her disclosure. After all, he is the parent (or is alleged to be so).

    It seems like, from my perspective, the mandatory DNA testing is just a very very indirect way of trying to promote female fidelity by making it more likely that the false paternity will be caught.

    And if people went directly to the issue, then appropriate safeguards and measurements could be taken, but all this indirect stuff really isn’t going to change much. Matter of fact, the base concern of a lot of it is “I fear she will cheat on me and take my resources” and the problem is these things really don’t do anything about that, nor provide people with real tools for being able to mitigate those circumstances in their own lives.

  • Malia

    –Practically speaking, they are the same. Malia, stop digging.

    I’m going to try and help you here. You’ll hear the terms population and sample. So.—

    No it is not. For example, the probability of it happening in a marriage is lower than it happening overall. Even the wiki article stated that SES, marriage, education, etc., are all factors. The statistic is the rate of occurrence across all groups, probability has to factor in risk factors.

  • Passer_By

    @Malia

    “My point is that a father doesn’t need the mother’s permission for DNA testing (unless it’s in utero), all he needs is the kid and himself.”

    I don’t believe that’s accurate. If it could be done without the mother’s knowledge or consent, we would’t be having this conversation.

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    Thank you for shining some light on “Eat, Pray, Love”. Your comment (#82) in reference to your first reading EPL in 2006 “…I didn’t recognize the insidious nature of her frivolous divorce.” is part of what I found to be most frightening (and, at the time surprising) about the book from the very beginning, i.e. just how programmed we are to receive such tales as romantic, empowering, and inspiring. Not to say that any of these sentiments fell upon you personally, but the fact that the crux of the story – the collateral damage, the other human being(s) on the receiving end of the whimsical adventure, and the disposable nature of commitment in the pursuit of “happiness” may have taken a bit longer to come to the surface is telling.

    It was not long after my ex tore through the pages of that manual of marital destruction as well as a couple of other similar pieces of marketing rubbish that she officially determined that she was not “happy”, needed to be alone, and worse, had not been truly “happy” for a long time but just had not known it. She had already tapped (other way around actually) an older and more “successful” replacement, her career was in full swing and she had been planning her exit for over a year, so she didn’t need a lot of eating and praying and loving per se, but she did need some encouragement and justification to lubricate her hamster wheel. (Be wary of the private trainer, new panties, and sudden uptick of business trips)

    And I can reinforce your point about Gilberts husband. I was no doormat. When she had her epiphany, I was 35, had two “prestigious” degrees, made partner at my firm, and had just completed a full remodel of our beautiful 1900′s home, including all of the interior and landscape design. Oh, and just for good measure, I was nearly as fit as I was at 19 when I was a collegiate athlete. I had my faults, but I was committed to her to the end. I now think my most egregious fault was that I didn’t give a fuck about my status as a baller at work. I wouldn’t self-promote in social circles (very un-American of me) and I was planning to exit the business (a serious threat to social status/power). The fact that I had wanted out of the businesses, not because I couldn’t hack it, but because I wanted to do something more fulfilling and wanted us to be able to spend more time together (she was also partner at a firm) just didn’t fit her need for social dominance. I simplify of course, but the EPL phenomenon is just one more manifestation of the systemic social and media support for the endless pursuit of women’s “happiness” without regard for anything or anyone outside of her own self-interest. This is what we are all up against – men and women.

    When women read EPL and just can’t see how narcissistic it is, how fantastical and damaging that kind of thinking can be – not just to the husband, family, etc. but to her in the long run as well, it surprises and disappoints me. And not just because women miss this stuff on the surface, but because I think if they miss this stuff then they are also much less likely to ever understand what men today are staring in the face when it comes to marriage, not to mention a greater potential to pull the EPL ripcord themselves.

    While some women will heartily eat (pun intended) the EPL detritus up without so much as a flinch and others will see it for what it is, the real problem is really that the EPL world-view is so celebrated and ingrained that many younger women are not able to develop the self-awareness and selfless orientation necessary to consider the real and reaching implications, to sort it out themselves. And the irony (and insult to injury) is not lost that the most enthusiastic proponents of EPL are often the loudest voices in shaming the increasing number of “immature boys” who are not meeting them at the alter when scheduled. I’ve been on both sides of the fence now and while I do want to marry, I can say that EPL has left me with this nagging question:

    Do I show up before you have sowed your romantic oats in far off places and risk that you will wake to a particularly lovely sunrise in Dayton, OH, only to realize that you cannot be “happy” until you see what a sunrise in Rome is like – on your own of course. Or do I show up after and unknowingly compete with expectations that manifest via wistful daydreams of far off places, where you felt free, where the touch of that Venetian poet left fingerprints on your soul, a soul illuminated by the sepia light that bled ‘tween stone and sea. Where the only weight on you was knowing that the city was sinking beneath your bare feet, fleeting and timeless, just as love, it awaits you there, where a moment of happiness stretched as eternal as the stars. Ah the stars. They were different over there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      I believe this is the first time you’ve shared the story of the dissolution of your marriage. I am so sorry that your wife did not value your love, loyalty and dedication to your relationship.

      the fact that the crux of the story – the collateral damage, the other human being(s) on the receiving end of the whimsical adventure, and the disposable nature of commitment in the pursuit of “happiness” may have taken a bit longer to come to the surface is telling.

      I don’t disagree. All I can say is that before I heard what men here have to say, I truly had no idea. I consider myself a fairly thoughtful and analytical person, yet it’s clear that I was as snowed by the culture as anyone. It’s easy to be blind to what is right in front of us sometimes.

      she officially determined that she was not “happy”, needed to be alone, and worse, had not been truly “happy” for a long time but just had not known it.

      What crap. That’s even worse than solipsism – a woman who doesn’t even know her own mind.

      the real problem is really that the EPL world-view is so celebrated and ingrained that many younger women are not able to develop the self-awareness and selfless orientation necessary to consider the real and reaching implications, to sort it out themselves.

      Well, you know what? I titled this post with a specific goal in mind – to eventually rank high enough in Google that women searching for EPL information will find this post. It’s a small thing, but the one thing I know how to do.

      Do I show up before you have sowed your romantic oats in far off places and risk that you will wake to a particularly lovely sunrise in Dayton, OH, only to realize that you cannot be “happy” until you see what a sunrise in Rome is like – on your own of course. Or do I show up after and unknowingly compete with expectations that manifest via wistful daydreams of far off places, where you felt free, where the touch of that Venetian poet left fingerprints on your soul, a soul illuminated by the sepia light that bled ‘tween stone and sea. Where the only weight on you was knowing that the city was sinking beneath your bare feet, fleeting and timeless, just as love, it awaits you there, where a moment of happiness stretched as eternal as the stars. Ah the stars. They were different over there.

      This is a beautiful piece of prose. I hope you did leave the business, Tasmin, because you are a writer.

  • deti

    “If a man simply made no effort to earn income or find a job for a prolonged period (a year?) that could be grounds.”

    To me that falls under the broad abandonment category. “Yeah, those things I used to do to make this marriage work day to day? I’m not going to do those things anymore. I’m not even going to try to do them anymore.” Abandonment.

    Same thing if wife is physically present but shirks her usual duties. A wife withholding sex, saying to her husband “I just don’t want to have sex with you anymore so I am not going to. ” She hasn’t moved out, there’s nothing medically or psychologically wrong, she isn’t cheating.

    That’s still marital abandonment.

  • Malia

    –I don’t believe that’s accurate. If it could be done without the mother’s knowledge or consent, we would’t be having this conversation.–

    It can, yet we are. There is a difference between what you can do and how it must be done if there is a legal issue (custody/child support).

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Malia, by that logic routine HIV testing shouldn’t be done on pregnant women, just education and prevention. Yet it is done routinely. I didn’t even know they did this, until I became pregnant.

    According to http://www.avert.org about one million in the US have HIV. Let’s say 500k women have HIV, out of roughly 150million women in the US. That’s around 0.3% chance of having HIV. Not all of those women will be pregnant, so the chance that a pregnant woman has HIV is a fraction of 1%.

    Both procedures (HIV testing and paternity testing) would be done only around pregnancy. That is not stopping every car in traffic, only those cars that have a baby in them. Therefore it does not even apply to most people.

  • tvmunson

    #526

    I am not aware of anything barring a father from testing the DNA. He has as much right to the baby’s effluvia as the mother, and I do not think this would constitute a medical procedure. Even if it did I am not aware that unanimous consent of both parents is required. Not sure if he needs blood to do the test, but it’s probably easier. The hospital probably would not do it, but there are plenty of labs that will. Let’s say he takes the baby home, gets a blood sample, goes to the lab. Mom finds out; what’s she going to do? Have him arrrested for unalwful extraction (no such law)? He’s the putative father. This is presumptively his child. As long as it is not done for the purpose of inflicting gratuitous pain, he’s allowed to do whatever he deems appropriate (including, when older, the infliction of gratuitous pain i e corporal punishment; the law makes no distinction between right and wrong corporal so long as it within the limits set by statute). You may not believe it’s accurate, but I do and will continue to do so until pointed to a statute or case that say’s I’m wrong. that’s what “law” is.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      Should I be paying you a retainer?

  • Mike C

    No it is not. For example, the probability of it happening in a marriage is lower than it happening overall. Even the wiki article stated that SES, marriage, education, etc., are all factors. The statistic is the rate of occurrence across all groups, probability has to factor in risk factors.

    Yes, you are right on that particular point (about marriage), because those are different samples then the population at large, but I was referring to a random sample going forward, not a sample of JUST married women or JUST highly educated women. I didn’t read the links so I don’t know if good data exists on just those sub-groups for a very large N (population number).

    Again, just for clarity, if 3.7% is the historical rate of occurance that is the best estimate probability for a TOTALLY RANDOM SAMPLE going forward. Yes, if we start restricting the sample to JUST married women, the probability changes with I would assume a substantial decrease. The single most important variable appears to be whether or not the guy suspects it.

    Stingray, I take it you are probably libertarian leaning. I am as well and share your concerns about the government Leviathan. Here’s the thing though I would wrestle with. As much as government has already injected itself into this family domain, why stop short here on the MPT issue. Truthfully, I’m not even sure what I believe with MPT when you factor in the cost and it coming from public funds to some extent. Practically speaking, any guy suspicious can do it on the downlow and that avoids a whole host of problems.

  • Rum

    Paseer By
    It can be done without the mothers knowledge or consent for under 100USD. Chick swab (or diaper goo) from kid plus cheek swab from guy = total certainty.
    This is not the kind of thing that a person these days should be clueless of.

  • Malia

    @hope

    HIV testing is also done for the safety of the workers and the baby. I meant to address it when you brought it up before. Medical tests for medical reasons, the other (non medical) tests are voluntary.

  • Babydoll

    @Jesus

    “There was a time (unless it was a myth) that people began by having feelings for each other, and then moved on to sex. That seems to make a lot more sense then the way it plays out now.”

    It’s not a myth. There are still couples that start out this way. I don’t have sex unless I have feelings for the guy. I don’t think I am unusually either in this regard, though sometimes I do feel like I’m in the minority.

  • Anna

    @ Hope
    Actually the number of women with HIV in the US will be about half of that again. Not half of the HIV cases will be women, rather 1 in 4, remember the male group is heterosexual and many many gay.

  • Stingray

    really? So do they prefer paternity testing to be done on an individual basis, or are they opposed to it altogether?

    They would prefer on an individual basis. These men are VERY much pro-men. It is the mandatory that they would have a huge problem with.

    Anyway, I was born and raised in China, and to me the US system is more democratic. Whenever I’ve said anything more political than that, I’ve usually gotten the “go back to China” remark. So I’ll just sidestep the rest of your comment, if you can understand.

    I understand that and I would never say go back to China. I realize my comments come across bit . . . in your face(?). They are not meant to. This is simply my debating style. It’s the easiest way for me to make my point. I am not trying to be confrontational. Are you still in China?

  • Lokland

    @ Malia

    You got me on that one. They typically run them on holiday weekends.
    However (I think we disagree on this) the cost of implementation is very low, practically free with what we are already doing in regards to an MTP.

    Also, its illegal to test paternity without the mothers permission in some states. Actually I believe at some point a law was pushed through (in some states) making it illegal in all cases, under the grounds of “the child has a right to their DNA” in which case you have to wait until the child is 18 or get moms permission as well. (Luckily my judicial system doesn’t work like that.)

    That means that doing a home based paternity test isn’t valid in court and does not prevent payment of child support. These laws are rare though but they do exist in a few states. (I don’t know which and very likely they have been changed in the past two-ish years but just a tidbit.)

    I do think you suggested an agreeable alternative though. Instead of mandatory testing making it something that can be done voluntarily by the father without moms knowledge/permission.

    This a) prevents fraud, b) prevents the problem of mistrust, c) lowers costs.

    I disagree with you however on the inability of paternity testing to mitigate the problems of cuckolding.

    You said “cheat and take resources”. We can’t prevent the cheating in men or women. Fact of life, lets not bother trying. We can prevent the theft of resources that are undeserved though. (I’ll even say male cheaters should probably “owe” their wives some kind of payment if it resulted in other children that are taking up resources.)

    Last, you seem to have some idea on how to get down to the key issues. Care to expand because I can’t seem to think of any logical solution.

  • tvmunson

    Tasmin #527

    Were either of you attorneys?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Even though I am basing that question on the fact that women are not reliable in swallowing the Pill?

    Yep, because my point is finding any general assertions (true or not) to use the big M word.

    If I were a misogynist Yohami I would say, “Yes, because all women are unreliable.”

    Seems like you just like that word too much though.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Stingray, frankly I would never get an HIV test on my own, but now I know 100% I’m not HIV positive, even though I was quite certain already. I think a lot of men fall into this position on their children’s parentage. They might be confident, but there’s always that chance. I can see the virtue of leaving it up to the individual, but I’m not adamantly opposed to “routine with option of not doing it,” which is being called “mandatory” but does not carry penalties if you don’t want it. How about just offering it as a routine option? Is that still big government ruling over people’s lives?

    Anyway, I am not in China. I live in Utah where the state government is very in-your-face about restrictions on alcohol but very lax on gun laws.

  • Babydoll

    @BroHamlet #278

    Thank you for explaining that. I can see the truth in what you say. I think there is a lot in the media that encourages and validates women who behave poorly with no consequences or self-examination. I have felt sometimes that I have gotten away with bad behaviour purely because I am female.

    “The issue is that most women don’t know their true motivations and what really attracts them. Not what society says morally SHOULD attract them or what society says the reasons for their actions are. So in the end true knowledge of self is very hard to come by in women these days. If nobody encourages you to examine yourself, most of the time, you won’t, especially if there’s always someone there to assure you that nothing is your fault.”

    This is interesting. I need to think about this. Do I know myself? How would I know that I’m not being self-deceiving? How much of my idea of myself wishful thinking e.g. I tell myself I am a responsible productive adult when the reality is I have been bailed out so many times I have never tasted real responsibility?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    *Yep, because my point is [that you usually go around] finding any general assertions [about women] (true or not) to use the big M word.

  • Stingray

    I take it you are probably libertarian leaning.

    I am.

    Practically speaking, any guy suspicious can do it on the downlow and that avoids a whole host of problems.

    This is exactly why I am so adamantly against the mandatory aspect of it. I truly have no problem with the testing. Heck after reading about this problem on the manosphere I asked my husband if it was a concern to him and if he wanted our children tested. I remember my dad (who after 39 years of marriage is still head over heals about my mom) talking about how there was always that niggling feeling that if mom wanted to trick him about my brother and I she could have. He never suspected she cheated, but just through how nature works in this regard that it was a possibility. That struck a chord with me and between reading about cuckholding and hearing my dad I felt I should ask. My husband was not interested.

    However, I think that more men would be so incredibly against mandatory testing that you would be pitting men against men when there is not much point. Not when a man can have it done himself. I think the changing of making the man support another man’s son against his will and letting him just walk would go a long way in punishing women who thought this was ok. It might not be perfect, but you are not forcing people who have nothing to do with this into something they are against.

  • Stingray

    How about just offering it as a routine option?

    I would feel a bit better about this. Yes.

    your-face about restrictions on alcohol

    Bastards!!!

    very lax on gun laws.

    Awesome.
    ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stingray

      your-face about restrictions on alcohol

      Bastards!!!

      very lax on gun laws.

      Awesome.

      You’re a great character, I welcome your POV.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    BTW, the HIV testing during pregnancy is not mandatory is either. It is simply routine and highly recommended, despite the chance that the woman has HIV is like 0.01%. You can refuse the test or turn it down. In the medical industry (where my parents work/ed) they call it the patient’s right to refuse care.

    If the use of the word mandatory is what causes the contention, then perhaps it should be dropped and instead be called routine parental testing.

  • Isabel

    Let it be sufficient to say that on this night, he was still my lighthouse and my albatross in equal measure.

    - Elizabeth Gilbert

    I never understood this about EPL or no-fault divorces in general. Why do women like Gilbert divorce and then describe their ex-husbands as “wonderful” and “my best friend”…? :| Shouldn’t you be leaving your husband because he did horrible things to you and you now hate his guts? It all just sounds like a bigger, more expensive version of LJBF. The “working up courage” line that Gilbert always trots out in interviews is also really slippery. What is so brave about being the one to initiate divorce when society and the courts are already on your side? Can’t believe this woman was invited to speak at TED.

    Malia,

    No, not really. It would be the equivalent of pulling EVERYONE over for a breathalyzer to catch more drunk drivers.

    This doesn’t really hold up because being pulled over whilst sober is an inconvenience at best. Paternity fraud is infidelity, theft, abuse and entrapment all at once. I don’t believe for a second that it is as high as 10% but even at 3%, that’s still hundreds of thousands of men affected by it and that’s not to mention the impact it has on kids. I think the consequences of PT are bad enough to make it worth slightly inconveniencing the rest of us.

    I agree we shouldn’t make it mandatory though but only because of the technology we have *right* now. We’re better off making it easily and cheaply available at birth. Then, if the child turns out to be illegitimate, the father can demand to be reimbursed for the loss of potential resources during the marriage, like an alimony type thing. He should also have the option to cease any further contact and contribution if he wants. That way, there’s full recourse for male victims and none of the ‘guilty until proven otherwise’ that comes with MPT.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Isabel

      It all just sounds like a bigger, more expensive version of LJBF.

      This is so right on, I can’t believe no one observed this sooner. Brilliant.

  • Malia

    –However (I think we disagree on this) the cost of implementation is very low–

    The cost of running the test is low, the cost of administering testing (compliance, data collection and reporting, social services) is much higher.

    –That means that doing a home based paternity test isn’t valid in court and does not prevent payment of child support.–

    Yes but that is a different issue. Paternity can be contested. The issue is muddied with married couples because you not only have the presumption of paternity, you have legal paternity which is presumed based on the marital relationship. But again, I think there is already a resolution for this, what we are discussing is should the test be mandatory, not should the resolution exist.

    –Also, its illegal to test paternity without the mothers permission in some states–

    I’m not going to bother researching this, so I will just concede to your research but are you saying it is against the law or inadmissible in court?

    lastly, you asked another question, that requires a more thought out answer. I will reply later.

  • Jess

    Tasmin,
    I don’t completely agree with you but that is one superbly crafted and moving post.

  • Malia

    –This doesn’t really hold up because being pulled over whilst sober is an inconvenience at best. –

    Yeah for you. For me, being pulled over is a big deal, I don’t drink. Zero risk of driving while intoxicated.

    I get that you support it, you can ELECT it.

  • Sasha

    Hope,

    Defaults matter. Given such a low incidence of HIV in women in general, it seems wasteful to have HIV testing as a strongly suggested default for women outside of risk groups. What happens if a pregnant woman tests positive?

  • Lokland

    @ Malia

    “I’m not going to bother researching this, so I will just concede to your research but are you saying it is against the law or inadmissible in court?”

    Inadmissable. My mistake, I’m not a layer. Illegal would make it worthy of jail time or a fine I suppose.

  • Anna

    @ Malia
    “What happens if a pregnant woman tests positive?”
    They do the necessary arrangements for the birth so that the baby does not get the virus. It is simple and not expensive.
    I don’t know how many children are born with HIV in the US, would be interesting to know.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Sasha, if she tests positive there are preventative care steps such as taking antiretrovirals and not breastfeeding, that can minimize the risk of HIV transmission from mother to baby down to below 2%. They do similar things for group B strep infection, so giving women antibiotics so she doesn’t transmit the infection to the baby during labor. It is a common cause of stillbirth, and I was positive for it, but the doctors didn’t say that was the cause. Regardless I have done lots of research into this subject, and it’s much more likely that a woman has a complication or problem with her pregnancy than have HIV.

  • JQ

    @ sonofagunforbeer 523:

    Really? Haven’t all of us who know what those things are been through enough flame wars about same?

    For the record, I’m a Bayesian who has a strong a priori belief that it is hard to DHV by participating in the Bayesian/frequentist flame war.

  • Isabel

    Malia,

    Yeah for you. For me, being pulled over is a big deal, I don’t drink. Zero risk of driving while intoxicated.

    It’s never going to be as big a deal as raising, supporting and bonding with a child that isn’t yours for years. A little perspective?

    I get that you support it, you can ELECT it. </

    That's what I said.

  • Sasha

    @JQ

    For the record, I’m a Bayesian who has a strong a priori belief that it is hard to DHV by participating in the Bayesian/frequentist flame war.

    It’s time to update your (prior) crowd ;).

  • Mike C

    BTW Jesus, congratulations. You are one hell of a writer, and great with evoking visual imagery with your words,.

  • Malia

    @isabel

    Someone else brought up the DUI and I responded, sheesh at least keep your argument where it belongs.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Agreed. Incentives drive behavior. Increase the chance of getting caught to 100%, and you’ll see a big change in behavior.”

    There are two phrases I like…

    Locks keep honest people honest.
    Fences make good neighbors.

    Really, the whole basis of well-written laws is that they prevent regular people from following their basest instincts (deterrence), and along with that they punish those who are so sociopathic that they would do it anyway.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Just,

    @Jesus – and…?

    you came here to back-slap each other over an agreed view-point? How very dull of you.

    I thought Susan wrote a fair summary of the issue, this seems to be a shared assessment as there has been little debate over it.

    Mr Munson gave an excellent break down of the Florida thang? Much appreciated Mr M. It seems the judge thought that the judgement stank and Mr M says things are still progressing – cool.

    Susan’s post examined why men might legitimately feel that marriage was not a winning idea. Cuckolding is a related subject…what’s your issue? I think that injustice is important, I hope you gain insight as you grow older – you could even get an EPL blockbuster out of it…whohoo

    Bro, I didn’t want to discuss this topic at all. I wasn’t looking forward to this post. But, if it’s an important topic to you, then it’s entirely possible to discuss the finer points of the issue with someone who’s basically on your side. Seems more productive than sniffing out another topic to fight over.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike C,

    Thanks, dude.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “And do you think those young guys would be reliable in swallowing a male Pill every morning?”

    This is a typical argument against the utility of male birth control, but my question is…does anyone trust young _women_ to take their pill every day? A perusal of young adult life reveals large cohorts of women living on credit, wasting their brains consuming trash TV and gossip magazines, can’t go on two dates without flaking, can’t help but falling onto the penis of the latest hot bro to walk by…

    If we’re going to impugn the competence of young people let’s be equal about it.

    I do concur, I suppose, that a male pill is only going to be as effective as we can educate young men as to the risks involved (unwanted children and child support orders) in not taking birth control seriously. I think unmarried men are naive to not wear a condom and trust that a woman is using her birth control properly, unless he knows personally the doctor who put the IUD in and drove her to the appointment herself.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      This is a typical argument against the utility of male birth control, but my question is…does anyone trust young _women_ to take their pill every day?

      Apologies, I must have communicated poorly. I asked the question specifically because we know that women are not very good at all about taking their Pill regularly. I’d wager that quite a few unplanned pregnancies occur b/c of lax Pill-taking.

      I was really wondering if you expect men to be any better at it. I don’t, but I’m not saying we shouldn’t have a male Pill. I fully support the right of men to ensure that they do not impregnate anyone. I honestly don’t see how any harm can come of it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I did have advantage of knowing that my wife prefers men of a different race than we both are

    Is this real? Your wife prefers men of a different race than you?

  • Anacaona

    After all, the whole point of going to confession is to tell the priest you’ve been beating your wife/sleeping around on your husband for the last 3 months, and with 2 hail mary’s and 1 our father, your dirt is washed off and you are now pure for entry through the pearly gates.

    Err this is a big misunderstanding you confess and get penitence but like Jesus said “go and sin no more” so if you continue to do the same you are not forgiven because God is not stupid, he forgives repentance no empty words to continue the same path.

  • http://tenfoured.blog.com HeligKo

    @jesus sadly it is real, and wasn’t something that I learned until we were multiple years into our marriage. We are no longer living as husband and wife.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Helig,

    Good for you. She must have been a miserable bitch. Don’t tell Hope I said that though. She’ll accuse me of jumping to conclusions.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Rum re: dowry

    In India, the dowry began as a way for the daughter to provide for herself in the eventuality that the family she was marrying into did not provide for her well enough (strong possibility in a deeply patriarchal society). It was just a little cash, usually a bundle of a few pieces of jewelry. Soon, families with sons of marriageable age found out about this practice and began to inquire about it…and eventually demand it as a prerequisite to marriage.

    Just wanted to provide some clarification on the matter.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Hope:

    I agree with most of your list, but I questioned a few:

    1) Don’t drink alcohol, smoke anything, do any drugs, or partake of the partying lifestyle.

    You can drink alcohol, smoke, do soft drugs, and have a bit of a party life, and still be an overall put-together person.

    You can also be stone-cold sober and still let others run you into the ground.

    4) Get good at cooking, cleaning and general housekeeping, and make these a habit.

    I agree because this is just something that is of personal benefit irrelevant of one’s sex. However, I question if it’s entirely necessary these days…my aunt has a housekeeper and a cook who come over once a week and do everything so that she and her husband can focus on their respective careers and childrearing. I know guys today who hire housekeepers for their apartments so that they just don’t have to worry about cleaning after themselves and focus on other things. Is marketing this sort of skill truly necessary?

    5) Learn to enjoy a major male-oriented hobby, such as sports, video games, shooting, poker, etc.

    Agree with what another commenter (I think it was Charm?) said about this. I enjoy dancing; I don’t expect my hubby to join in with me. Likewise I don’t think it’s necessary for me to participate in sports like he does.

    If we’re talking about a basic level of enjoyment, though (i.e. he comes to dance performances/watches me perform, I go to sports games/watch him play) then that’s different.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    Cheerful @532

    “for richer, and for poorer….”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Saywhaat, you dance?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Saywhaat, you dance?

      She moves with the grace of a prima ballerina.

  • Stingray

    However, I question if it’s entirely necessary these days

    I don’t think this is entirely necessary these days but I do question if girls realize how much many men like the thought of being taken care of by their wives/SO. It’s not about them not being able to do it. It’s not about them not being boys and can take care of themselves (I have heard a few women say this now and I find it very sad. “He’s not a boy and he can take care of himself. Why should I have to do it for him?”) It’s more about the fact that we, as their woman, want to do this for them because we love them so much and they deserve this from us. It is a sign of respect and a sign of love. I think it is a lot more important than people realize and is a wonderful think to do even if it is only periodically.

  • Tyler

    Susan,

    Thank you so much for a wise and insightful post.

    I am an unmarried man in his mid-twenties, and the seemingly growing EPL divorce trend is absolutely terrifying to me. I know many other men my age who share this sentiment.

    It’s terrifying to think that a man can be a successful, ideal husband (and not according to him, but according to his wife!), be committed to the marriage and his wife’s well-being, and still find himself on the receiving end of divorce papers.

    My generation is one of moral relativism and ambivalence—almost everything these days seems to be a “gray area,” which is a convenient way to rationalize and excuse shady behavior. EPL fits this zeitgeist like a glove.

    Men must decide if they can stomach the sizable and increasing risk marriage represents. If I didn’t believe as strongly as I do in marriage as an institution the decision would be easy. Unfortunately, I find myself caught between a rock and a hard place wanting something that I know has a high chance of failing for reasons totally out of my control.

    I can tell you that the thought process is excruciating. There is no easy answer.

    Ultimately I do know that there are still good, honorable women out there, and men would be wise to realize that these women are more special and valuable than ever before.

    Definitely looking to snatch one of them up before they go the way of the Dodo bird :P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tyler

      Welcome, thanks for leaving a comment. My advice is to put women through their paces. Watch their reactions to bumps in the road carefully. Look at their family relationships, and their friendships. Carefully assess the degree to which they seek attention from others as a form of validation. Does she have your back, or does she shit test you in public? Is she affectionate, appreciative and respectful of who you are as a man? Does she allow you some time to hang with your guy friends without complaining? Does she have interests of her own, is she independent? Does she offer to share expenses? Is she a considerate lover? Does she like sex a lot? Does she make an effort to do things for you, like cook? Is she a clothes horse? Does she always want to eat out at expensive restaurants, or is she happy with BBQ or a diner? How does she respond when you hit a rough patch – job fail, disappointing news, family crisis – is she there for you? Can you cry in front of her, knowing her love is unconditional?

      These are really just a few of the things that a man should feel absolutely certain about before marrying. It’s too big a step to turn a blind eye and hope for the best. Despite the realities of marriage and divorce, I think far too many people, both men and women, make the leap without sufficient vetting.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @SayWhaat, it’s what worked for me. YMMV, as Anacanoa likes to say. :P There are lots of married women who didn’t do a single point on my list and still made it down the aisle.

    For our own family situation, we make enough that we could eat out nightly, hire housekeepers, etc. but to be honest there’s something immensely satisfying about eating homemade meals and doing my own housework. It’s not like I lack for time, because I still play too many hours of video games. >.>

  • SayWhaat

    @ Jesus:

    Trained in classical Indian dance since I was 4yo.

    I’m also pretty fierce in clubs. Another reason why I’m not threatened by stripper “competition”. ;)

  • Babydoll

    @Jesus #341

    Congratulations!!!!

  • SayWhaat

    (P.S. congrats on the book deal.)

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Jesus Mahoney, whud I do? Are you talking about the alternative theories I threw out? Remember my very first post on that thread agreeing with Susan’s points which you also agreed with? /sigh.

    Anyway, grats on the book deal.

  • Butterfly Flower

    That surprises me. I would have expected so cons to approve early marriage, and feminists to question it.

    Early marriage according to so-cons is like, 26. Probably after riding the carousel [I'm still astonished by all the slutty conservative women I encounter in church].

    Judging by the projections [unplanned pregnancy/pissing off parents/because friends are getting married] the majority so-con women didn’t get married for love.

    “My Japanese relatives/friends are supportive. Only American women denounce my engagement.”

    Wow that sounds insane. Why is this the case? Cultural differences?

    Well, my non-Japanese side of the family is supportive too. But they’re also not American.

    It’s insane how American culture discourages marriage. I’m fed up with miserable married women telling me what to do. It seems being a whore is considered more socially acceptable than early marriage.

    After all, the whole point of going to confession is to tell the priest you’ve been beating your wife/sleeping around on your husband for the last 3 months, and with 2 hail mary’s and 1 our father, your dirt is washed off and you are now pure for entry through the pearly gates.

    Most devout Catholics I encounter are quite flippant when it comes to sins. They go to Confession, pray a lot, have the Catechism memorized – and assume these actions give them a “Get-out of-Hell” free card. Religion can easily become a rationalization tool – a hamster spin.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Jonny
    “I see no reason why they should marry as well. Why not cohabitate?”

    Well, there is that huge tax benefit to filing jointly : )

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “Which means that no one is going to work to pay the Social Security you may be looking forward to?”

    Careful, you’re a baby boomer talking about SS amongst younger people. We’re going to have to pay a hell of a lot in payroll taxes when your generation finally retires : )

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Careful, you’re a baby boomer talking about SS amongst younger people. We’re going to have to pay a hell of a lot in payroll taxes when your generation finally retires : )

      Has anyone read Albert Brooks’ novel 2030? I’ve heard it’s very good and a bit frightening, as the boomers enter their last years. I know I plan to go down in a blaze of glory.

  • Anacaona

    I will just comment shortly
    Totally on for mandatory paternity testing. It should be a reproductive personal right as much as abortion is (don’t we all pay for legal abortions even though only a third of women need it?)
    Men in my country want to have children, regardless if they plan to raise them or not, in fact I know a woman that had to leave the country because she got an abortion from a man she slept once he found out and he wanted to kill her, Mind you the guy has other seven children, still his sperm his choice so to speak. Holle is wrong thinking that people think long term when desiring to have children the whole “I want to give my children the things I didn’t had” is a modern phenomenon reproduction predates that. Think all the women that got pregnant with the very high chances of them and/or the children dying its not a rational desire is primeval, like wanting to pee or fuck.

    About the whole biology matters in other cultures. Oh yeah one of the things that also weights in my inability to concieve is that my parents already told me that they don’t want “fake grandchildren” and I’m the only woman of my family that has taken this long without getting pregnant so far, cousins, aunts…all got pregnant without any struggle, in here my husband is pretty much picking the country we could get some unfortunate children from and my inlaws already had a relative that adopted while from DR. I get the whole “wasn’t she a virgin?” “she probably ate bananas/washed her hair during her period (taboo in my culture and they are right I did) and of course “that is because she is not a Christian/didn’t married in a catholic church/didn’t became a priest to the goddess…” and there are days I believe them :(

    @Jesus M.
    Congratulations I wish you a best seller and a critical success as well as a movie deal :)

    Oh boy meetup has a Pua Lair group in LA!?The seeds are growing it seems like :) http://www.meetup.com/Attract-Women-in-Los-Angeles/?gj=ej1c&a=wg2_l4
    Oh boy could any reader nearby attend and report. I really can’t pass as a man but I’m so freaking curious. See Susan I never wanted to have a penis for a day now I could just to check this group out :D

  • SayWhaat

    She moves with the grace of a prima ballerina.

    And has the attitude of a prima donna. :P

  • SayWhaat

    Should I be paying you a retainer?

    I’m thoroughly relieved we have a real lawyer commenting here. I enjoy Munson’s colorful commentary. :P

  • Anacaona

    @Susan
    Another thing you should consider a post about cuckoldry to drill in some women the idea that this is a crime against men and not just an indiscretion that should be forgotten and forbidden.
    For what is worth in my trilogy the leading lady is the product of cuckoldry and her mother is totally shamed for it also her “father” will have a heart to heart with her about how horrible was for him to find out, I also will have my leading man falsely accused of rape. Not sure it will ever be published but I’m writing it as a romance, the genre of Troy if you catch my drill ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      Oh, I love having so many writers here! You have a firm grasp of the female hindbrain, lol, I think you could definitely write bestsellers. :)

      Agree that cuckoldry is a total crime – I did write one post calling out Hugo Schwyzer for cuckolding another man, you may recall. Horrible, but not as bad as the wife.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hey Anacaona, why aren’t you using Comment Luv?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Babydoll
    “SIM City anyone?”

    Yes, ma’am. I still play the original on my computer to this day. And I’m trying to get the wife to play video games with me.

    Hope’s list was very good, definitely. I was tempted to try and come up with one for men to follow, but it probably wouldn’t be popular around here.

    Re: You mentioned earlier that after moving to a bigger city, guys were constantly approaching you. But it sounds like you’re still single. True? I wonder if this illustrates the contrast between quantity vs. quality of partners. That’s what I’ve noticed in big cities like San Francisco. Everybody’s dating, nobody’s mating.

  • Olive

    Last, you seem to have some idea on how to get down to the key issues. Care to expand because I can’t seem to think of any logical solution.

    Yeah I’m curious about this too. Been trying to catch up on this thread a bit, and it seems like Malia’s basic argument is that mandatory paternity testing doesn’t get to the heart of the issue, which is mistrust. How do we eliminate mistrust? How do we foster stronger, healthier marriages, so that spouses don’t even need to worry about false paternity?

    To be fair, I remember feeling the same way about Doug’s constant harping on divorce laws. It’s not that I didn’t care about divorce laws, but I always felt like we could come at the issue from a different angle, to address the values behind “frivolous divorce” and not just the legal implications.

  • http://hookingupsmart.com GudEnuf

    Susan: I’d wager that quite a few unplanned pregnancies occur b/c of lax Pill-taking.

    I did the math once, about 5/6 of pregnancies can be attributed to either using no birth control or using birth control poorly. I’ll flesh out the methodology if anyone’s curious.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      5/6 of pregnancies or unplanned pregnancies?

  • http://hookingupsmart.com GudEnuf

    “5/6 of pregnancies or unplanned pregnancies?”

    Unplanned pregnancies.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Thanks, everyone.

    Hope, I was just teasing you before.

  • Rum

    Lokland
    There are many places that will do a simple comparisons of two swab dna samples to say whether or not there is a relation. Anonymously.
    Sure, that is not a court ready form of evidence. But if you get the information from the test that the mom is trying to hide… proceed to demand a more formal test and wait for her to refuse it. Busted! A woman who refuses a formal, legally vetted test of paternity has for all practical purposes confessed to the crime. Then, make sure that all her facebook friends and relatives be informed that she is demanding child support payments for a child she refuses to certify as being the offspring of the guy she wants to force to pay. Sometimes, even her employer might take notice of this kind of thing.. These days, it is not so hard to make sure that everyone in her world is informed of this with a few mouse clicks. What is she going to do, sue you for slander/defamation? Actual truth is a robust defense against defamation claims. So, let the discovery phase begin.
    I have suggested a few times in a few forums that smart females politicians should come down on the guys side of this because it is only going to turn out one way. DNA testing will only get cheaper and more accessible and guys are not going to lose interest in the results.
    Utah, Texas, and many other states have over the past 15 years expanded the range of gun rights. Over the same period, the UK and Australia remade their gun laws to be about as restrictive as can be imagined. Subsequently, gun crime soared in the UK and Aust and fell in Utah and Texas. That is only hard to understand if you spent too much time in an academic never never land.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com Bb

    “She moves with the grace of of a prima ballerina, but has the attitude of a prima donna.”

    Say Whaat, that’s the tagline for the romcom movie version of your life. I can see it on posters already.

    @Megaman #600 I’m interested in what your list looks like. Care to share?

    Jesus, congrats on the book deal! Very proud of you.

    @Ted D., and Escoffier, I’m heartened that y’all actively filtered for women of character. Of course men do, but few say so. It’s nice to hear.

  • http://hookingupsmart.com GudEnuf

    Congratulations Jesus. I want to hear the details!

  • Anacaona

    Hey Anacaona, why aren’t you using Comment Luv?

    This computer has issues with the blog…for some reason. Is not that I have written anything again anyway so I will make sure to do it when I have a new exciting post.
    Thanks for the attention ;)

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Bb
    “I’m interested in what your list looks like. Care to share?”

    I’ll have to brainstorm and share it in future discussion post on the benefits of marriage. Hope’s list is very good in that it gives women a list of highly valued qualities to bring to the table. Men should do the same. I recall Mr. Athol listing some good characteristics on his website.

    As much as it’s extremely important to enter marriage carefully and with someone who’s sufficiently compatible, the statistics are already in on the good ones. Men in quality marriages benefit enormously, perhaps moreso than women do. Emotionally, financially, health-wise, etc. And they report the highest levels of personal happiness. Divorce is a very real fear, but probably not for the 60%+ of married men who report being very happy.

  • Malia

    —Last, you seem to have some idea on how to get down to the key issues. Care to expand because I can’t seem to think of any logical solution.—-

    Sure you can, because you’ve taken the steps, in your arrangement, to mitigate many of those risks. The only reason the convo of your situation got derailed was because of the open-ness, not anything else.

    First, you can’t really do anything to fix the situation of guys who have been slighted, because so many of them have chips on their shoulders and nothing really will calm those fears. So when dealing with people who have not yet been in a bad position you:

    Require pre-marital counseling in a real sense (economical, practical and social). And since many marriages are ceremonial (i.e. religious), there’s no reason you can’t require it. I really don’t believe the majority of these women (EPL) do a 180, I do think that the indicators of their character are there, but since people want to look at things that are measurable (i.e. partner count) those indicators go largely ignored. I believe people learn this and know how to play it to their advantage. I can cite it later, but one of the most reliable indicators of whether or not a man will cheat is if his friends and family members do (and no, Olive, that is not about you). Therefore, I believe there are more reliable indicators of later marital problems that can be sorted out, or discovered, through pre-marital discovery.

    Make legal services affordable and accessible to every couple seeking a marriage license. Therefore, if you wish to have a pre-nup or pre-negotiate your financial protection, it’s not a matter of affordability. Maybe those with more money have more to afford private attorneys, but then again those with more money have more money at stake, so it’s about as fair as can be achieved in a capitalist society. (conversely, when dealing with family court issues there should be something similar to a public defender available as part of the fees to divorce and private attorneys should only be allowed if both parties can be represented equitably)

    Teach relationships/family just like they teach sex ed. Again, no reason you can’t. If you leave religion out of it (marriage), it should pass the cut of most objection over separation of church and state. If you can teach people how to have “safe sex”, you can teach that.

    Develop a cultural intolerance for infidelity instead a congratulatory culture. And this has to go across the board for it to work.

    There’s more but I have to run and can’t finish this up now. But I don’t think most of these things that come up really are about resolving the issue, but rather saying “well feminism got this, so I want that.” It’s more tit for tat and while I can understand why it is…

  • J

    @Anacoana/anyone else who wants to discuss TTC

    A while back I started a blog at http://elderlyprimapara.wordpress.com/

    I really didn’t put much effort into it as I wasn’t interested in writing posts, just in providing a space to talk. It’s still there if anyone is interested.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Megaman, thanks for touting my list for what a girl should do to be marriage material. :) As for a list of what I wanted in a man, this is the list I wrote before I met my husband, and he has all of these qualities:

    1. Intelligent and communicative, witty and funny
    2. Sexy, magnetic, sensual (music, art, touch), erotic and sexual, good in bed, a little mysterious
    3. Confident and knows what he wants, has good desires
    4. Loving and sweet, makes me feel secure in his arms, not afraid of intimacy and emotions
    5. Enlightened and wise, knows and loves life and happiness
    6. Attractive inside and out, smells good, makes me irresistibly drawn to him
    7. Dominant but gentle, embodies masculine ideals, chivalrous and manly
    8. Spontaneous and knows how to give surprises, exciting
    9. Financially stable, positive but realistic about his goals, finds meaning in life and family
    10. Open outside the bedroom, honest, steady, respects himself and others

    The only catch is that I must emulate these traits myself, or wherever possible, the complement of those traits (feminine is a complement to to masculine). The more I become that person, the closer I am to someone who is a mirror of myself. And when I meet someone who is like me he will seem so familiar because I already am that person. And he will be my soul mate.

    The list is a bit lacking on the practical side, but I think it still works. :P

  • Olive

    and no, Olive, that is not about you

    But…but… you’re making completely unfounded assumptions about my boyfriend and his family background!!!!

    :-P

    All kidding aside, that’s one of the most thought-provoking, insightful posts I’ve ever read from you, and I mean that as a compliment. I don’t know how we could teach relationships/family stuff across the board, but I’d definitely be interested in thinking about a teaching methodology. There are so many different ways to “do it right” it’d be difficult to develop a formulaic curriculum. But this:

    Develop a cultural intolerance for infidelity instead a congratulatory culture. And this has to go across the board for it to work.

    Cosign. I’m all for it.

  • Anacaona

    Cosign. I’m all for it.

    You could call it Anacaona’s red button. :D
    Guys here know how anti-cheating I am male and female. I boycott everything that promotes, romanticizes or forgive cheating. Nothing positive comes out of it and no measure of time heals the wound completely. I would classify it as abuse if I new men could also get women to be equally punished socially for it instead of being considered, all too often, his fault too in this culture.

  • Babydoll

    @Anna #513

    “The important thing is to not bring credit card debt into a marriage and to solve any financial issues before it becomes a painful secret and later a mutual problem.”

    I agree completely on this. This would be a major factor in deciding on a marriage. I have no credit cards, am opposed to them in principle and would prefer that my future husband either had none or used them sparingly. The interest rates on them are atrocious. Cash is king. If you have no cash, GTFO of the store.

  • Babydoll

    Oops that last one should have been #517

  • Babydoll

    “I don’t believe a spouse’s financial or employment problems are valid grounds for divorce.”

    I think it depends on the magnitude of the problems. Chronic unemployment because he wants to pursue some hobby at the expense of our savings and endangering our financial future: fuck off.

    Ruining us financially due to obsessive online poker playing: fuck off.

    I don’t expect a free ride but I do expect to share the financial responsibility equally, as far as that is possible considering there is bound to be income discrepancy between the husband and wife.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Ms. Hope

    Your first list seemed to be more practical stuff (i.e. what women should or shouldn’t do to make themselves marriage-material). I was thinking of similar stuff like that from the guy’s perspective. Of course, these things worked for you, so I guess I’d probably be self-projecting too.

    Your second list is mostly personal qualities that you find attractive. My guess is that the stereotypical guy would list things like “hot body”, “good in bed”, “submissive”, etc. : )

  • WarmWoman

    Babyd0ll”I am suspicious of any woman who suddenly wants to start over after over 20 years of slutting it up. I would wonder if it was a genuine attempt. I do believe in giving people chances though, but not a free pass with no consequences.”

    While I don’t know anyone who has “slutted it up” for 20 years, I do know both men and women that genuinely gave up casual sex and opted for sex within a commitment instead.

  • WarmWoman

    @Hope-

    It’s definitely true that you are more likely to attract your ideal mate when you become one yourself. People spend so much time on dreaming up Mr. and Mrs.Right, yet the first product that they can work on is themselves.

  • Babydoll

    “Same thing if wife is physically present but shirks her usual duties. A wife withholding sex, saying to her husband “I just don’t want to have sex with you anymore so I am not going to. ” She hasn’t moved out, there’s nothing medically or psychologically wrong, she isn’t cheating.”

    Yes agree on this one. Sex is very important and enjoyable to me in a relationship and if I start to not want it, there is usually an emotional issue involved. The last time I had sex with my cheating ex, I lay there mid act and realised I was completely disconnected from him emotionally. I may as well have masturbated. I left him not long after that.

  • Malia

    –I don’t know how we could teach relationships/family stuff across the board–

    It can be taught. I took a class in college instead of women’s studies. It can be “watered down” for high school. It even dealt with alternative family arrangements (i.e. homosexual).

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    It can be taught. I took a class in college instead of women’s studies. It can be “watered down” for high school.

    Watered down women studies for teenagers – just what the youth needs to know about relationships.

    It even dealt with alternative family arrangements (i.e. homosexual).

    We can cover every sexual orientation as long as we cute / PG names. “Making love to animals”, “How can I know if Im gay, ok but how can I be reeeaaaaaalllllyy sure?”, “Kissing clits 101″, “Mom and Dad, I when I grow up want to be an Androgynous-naut” and “Zen and the Fisting”.

    #Sarcasm.

  • Malia

    –Watered down women studies for teenagers – just what the youth needs to know about relationships.–

    What is your solution then?

  • Butterfly Flower

    The only problem with teaching “family and marriage” preparation, is that it often comes across as fear-mongering. Especially when older women project their own regrets/mistakes/personal flaws, onto all young women. I mean, I used to be scared of messing things up, because older women told me I’d inevitably mess up. Apparently there’s no way to avoid making horrible relationship blunders. Only recently have I gained the ability to trust myself. I’m a bright young woman with good judgement – I’m not going to accidentally hurt my fiance.

  • christiankp

    ”I have to say, I’m fascinated and astounded that after all the contention around the issue of frivolous divorce and my views a couple of weeks ago, there are virtually no men here critiquing or discussing the issue, including those that specifically demanded that I write this post as a demonstration of intellectual honesty (in fairness, one is no longer welcome here).”

    I was one who did not like the frivolous divorce debate, but who has been calmed down a lot by the last paragraph in this post by Susanne

    ” As a woman, it behooves you to be fully informed about about the risks men face, and the benefits you confer in your relationship. You will need to demonstrate that you are low risk, high value, and of sterling character. That means, among other things, willingness to take your wedding vows dead seriously, and to speak out against divorce as a means of personal growth and self-expression.”

    However, I think that Susanne and others ignore the basic asymmetry in divorce making a divorce taken out by at woman much more harmful to society as a whole than a divorce taken out by a man almost regardless of circumstances.

    Marriage is the most successful institution of equality between the sexes. Without marriage women should bear al the work of reproduction including breadwinning. In marriage men submit their short-term sexual urges to the long term needs of women. Patriarchy made it seem as it was the other way round –but that’s a con-game. Geoff Dench has written about this in the best book on gender-relations ever written: “Transforming men”.

    In marriage a man is giving the almost all the worth of his labor to his wife and his family. A married man is also working much more than a man not married thereby increasing the prosperity of whole society (mostly other women than his wife and other children than his own).

    When women take out divorce frivolously, which to me is any reason less than physical abuse of some severity or repeated infidelity, she is weakening the trust that men have for women and in marriage. As we se this is detrimental to marriage and is forcing women to fend for themselves. In a society without marriage women will be slaves and men will be free.

    And I must say that I can see no parallel of men’s and women’s infidelity. A cuckolded man is both abused economically and emotionally for his whole life. To me this crime should be considered just as severe as forcible rape.

    A man who is betraying his wife is an a**-*ole, but his only betraying her of minor economic resources.

    Just consider the fact that the economic resources that a cuckolded man put in his wife’s child are much greater than the money a man has to pay in child-support for his illegitimate child and you will realize that even disregarding the emotional side of infidelity, a woman’s infidelity is a much greater crime than a man’s.

    On a personal level many women believe – or they want to believe – that they can manage without a man. Maybe they can, but for some reason I always find a groveling undertone of angst in articles as those of Kate Bolick and even Hanna Rosin in spite of their superficial victorious attitude.

    But I know one thing. Although women can live without men, they cannot exist without society, and society cannot exist without men working for the benefit of women and children. The only way to make men working for women and children is for women to marry men and make them fathers of children – and when they have done this they must respect and celebrate the man for taking on responsibilities – and they should also be forgiving for minor missteps along the road. Occasional infidelity one the part of the man should be considered a minor misstep – especially if the man him-self is disclosing it.

    Otherwise it will be women and children – not men – who will be paying the price in the end.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Christiankp

      Although women can live without men, they cannot exist without society, and society cannot exist without men working for the benefit of women and children. The only way to make men working for women and children is for women to marry men and make them fathers of children – and when they have done this they must respect and celebrate the man for taking on responsibilities – and they should also be forgiving for minor missteps along the road.

      I agree 100%.

      Occasional infidelity one the part of the man should be considered a minor misstep – especially if the man him-self is disclosing it.

      Disagree 100%. His betrayal has little to do with minor economic resources, and everything to do with breaking trust, which is the foundation of any good relationship. Suspicion is a cancer that destroys love. And sharing a man whom one loves is torture.

      The marriage vows include “forsaking all others.” If a man cheats, he has broken his vow and the marriage contract is null and void. At that point, divorce is 100% justified.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    Cheerful @ 593
    No retainer necessary, but I would like to be shown as “of counsel” to HUS.

    Baby Doll re your response to Anna # 513

    A woman with no credit cards, who has an aversion to them! Saints preserve us! Where were you 30 years ago (probably not even born-sigh). Stay frugal my child-it has more blessings than you can count. It’s true-especially in marriage. Being financially stable does not guarantee a marriage’s success, but being financially unstable nearly always guarantees its failure.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    What is your solution then?

    A program would be good, but making it more practical than theorical, and including assertiveness, risk management, forming healthy boundaries, self care, taking care of others, empathy, making win / win deals, economical theories, nature vs nurturing, defense against the dark triads, handling your own money, business 101, hard work vs luck, owning your choices, leadership / teamwork / going with the flow, nash equlibrum (thanks, GudEnuf) etc.

    And again more practical than theorical – focusing on a set of skills the kids can *use* and get results on their lives, not just *grades*.

    Skills to reach their happiness, instead of the biased preconceptions and blame guilt and religiosity I imagine a watered down women studies would be about.

    Tools not content.

  • Babydoll

    @Tasmin

    Reading your story and what you experienced made me sad. If yours is a typical experience then no wonder there is so much cynicism around women and marriage.

    I like your writing style. You could be the Venetian poet :)

  • Babydoll

    @Megaman #600

    I loved that game! Used to bolt down lunch after school just so I could escape into this world I created and over which I had ultimate control :)

    Yes still single. Been single since May last year. Spent about 3 months after the breakup in complete despair and in counselling. Only really started considering other men after that dark period. Over Xmas I decided to throw out all the presents my ex gave me during the relationship. Still haven’t taken down the photos from Facebook though. I like going on dates and seriously considered someone for potential relationship but that didn’t pan out. So yeah lots of dates but only one came close to boyfriend material.

    Does your wife play video games at all? The only interest I’d hope a partner would share with me is dining out: I like trying different restaurants and cuisines.

  • Malia

    –Skills to reach their happiness, instead of the biased preconceptions and blame guilt and religiosity I imagine a watered down women studies would be about.

    Tools not content.–

    I don’t see why your response warranted your initial response to my post then. Perhaps you misread it. I only stated that I took such a class INSTEAD of women’s studies (i.e. to fulfill a requirement that most filled with women’s studies).

    —The only problem with teaching “family and marriage” preparation, is that it often comes across as fear-mongering. Especially when older women project their own regrets/mistakes/personal flaws, onto all young wome–

    Completely unrelated. Your personal experiences have nothing to do with teaching it. You presume these same women would be teaching it.

  • Butterfly Flower

    Completely unrelated. Your personal experiences have nothing to do with teaching it. You presume these same women would be teaching it.

    Well, who would be teaching it in most high school/colleges?

    Schools offer these courses now. I’m willing to dig through some old papers and find my High School marriage preparation course notes. It was full of hyperbole-lulz.

    It sounds good in theory, but I’m not really sure if it would work out.

  • Babydoll

    @WarmWoman #623

    That is encouraging to hear :)

    I know of one such woman so I was thinking of her when I wrote that comment. Maybe I’m being harsh on her, I do believe everyone deserves happiness, I just find it hard to believe someone could do a 180 like that after a prolonged period.

  • Malia

    –It sounds good in theory, but I’m not really sure if it would work out.–

    I was going to ask what your solution was, but then I figured why bother.

    I don’t get the reasoning. You want a career so you take a class/classes/years of education to be good at it. You want to learn a new skill, many people take a class or course (unless they are autodidacts). You want to drive, gotta take a class. I once took a class to learn particular software program.

    But a class on relationships/marriage won’t work.

    I give up.

    Just keep going at each other about the problems then.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Malia,

    Perhaps you misread it. I only stated that I took such a class INSTEAD of women’s studies

    Ah! I thought you wanted (more) women studies for teenagers instead of relationship-specific courses.

    I guess Butterfly is talking about christian related courses (marriage, tales, morals, fears, guilt, shaming, dont have sex etc) and thats why she says these are good in theory, bad in practice. I´d say these are not good in theory either.

  • Babydoll

    @tvmunson

    Hello counsel :)

    30 years ago I had just turned 2 years old. I learned the hard way re credit cards and I guess I know a bit about the psychology of someone who has multiple credit cards. All I have is my debit card and that works out just fine. I notice some of my high earning friends have at least 2 and I immediately think, are you robbing Peter to pay Paul?

    Thanks for the kind words.

  • Butterfly Flower

    I don’t get the reasoning. You want a career so you take a class/classes/years of education to be good at it. You want to learn a new skill, many people take a class or course (unless they are autodidacts). You want to drive, gotta take a class. I once took a class to learn particular software program.

    I feel like marriage preparation courses would cause more harm than good. Do you honestly expect the extraordinarily liberal-feminist higher education system to teach young women how to be a good wife with [somewhat] traditional values?

    It’s a decent concept, but realistically [as in, applied to the current American Education system] it won’t work-out.

    I give up.

    Just keep going at each other about the problems then

    I don’t fight with my fiance. Except when it comes to sports teams [he's an LA Dodger's fan...]

    & I’d appreciate if you replied to my posts in a more pleasant tone. Just because we have different opinions, it doesn’t mean you have to be respond with hostility.

    …maybe that’s why I don’t have fights with my fiance? Whenever I disagree with him, I put myself in his shoes and try to understand his viewpoint. I certainly don’t get hostile.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Babydoll

    Another favorite of mine from 20 years ago: Super Mario Bros. 3. Possibly the greatest video game of all time. The Mrs. and I play board/card games and tennis together. She’s not big on the electronic stuff, yet.

    Common interests help build the friendship part of a relationship. That’s a big part of mine, but it doesn’t seem to rank very highly on peoples’ list of “wants” in a partner. Opposites may attract, but they rarely stay together long-term IMO.

  • Babydoll

    @Megaman

    What time is it now in California? It’s just past 5.30pm here and I’ve finally caught up with all the comments.

    Yes big fan of Mario bros too as well as a game with pigs that shot arrows at balloons but the name escapes me right now.

    I definitely think a lover should be a friend too. In retrospect common interests were lacking in my last LTR. We had a love for food in common and not much else. I suppose the hotness in bed kept us going for a lot of the time.

    I used to play monopoly with my brothers – I wanted to own the whole board :)

  • Babydoll

    Susan,

    Having finally caught up, can I say thank you for a well written and insightful post. I certainly hope it will rank up there during Google searches for EPL.

    I really enjoy the discussions here and have learned a lot since I started visiting this site a few months ago. It also seems to have the most active commenter community in this sphere.

    If only I could keep tabs at work but they’ve blocked this site. And there’s only so long before my furious finger tapping on my iPhone draws some disturbed looks from my boss.

    Looking forward to more good stuff.

  • Anacaona

    “Possibly the greatest video game of all time.”
    Preach it! Totally adore that game.

    The Mrs. and I play board/card games and tennis together. She’s not big on the electronic stuff, yet.

    It seems that board games is a big tradition here in my country we only play domino, cards, Parcheesi and sometime chess, you can find a monopoly there a twister over there now and that is about it. Hubby and friends love board games and it blows my mind how many are they. I plan to do my own at some point when I have some seed money for it.
    I recently played a fantastic game called cards against humanity http://www.cardsagainsthumanity.com
    Warning this is the less PC game I had ever seen only play with people that surely won’t sue you :)

  • Butterfly Flower

    I guess Butterfly is talking about christian related courses (marriage, tales, morals, fears, guilt, shaming, dont have sex etc) and thats why she says these are good in theory, bad in practice. I´d say these are not good in theory either.

    Well, you’re somewhat right. I went to a private religious school, so the marriage preparation course was my school’s interpretation of sex-ed ['cause, you know...sex outside of marriage doesn't exist]. To give my school credit, the curriculum actually tried to explain what leads to divorces/failed marriages. However, the situations were so outrageous, the advice was rendered useless. Porn watching, desiring kinky sex, not having children immediately – were all things that would lead to a failed marriage.

    I feel like whatever institution that teaches a marriage preparation course, would just use the class as a tool to proliferate its own agenda.

  • Emily

    This is probably old news to a lot of people, but I just noticed that Susan’s posts get way more comments than Roissy’s. Yay! :D

  • http://AlcestisEshtemoa.wordpress.com Elizabeth Smith

    I guess Butterfly is talking about christian related courses (marriage, tales, morals, fears, guilt, shaming, dont have sex etc) and thats why she says these are good in theory, bad in practice. I´d say these are not good in theory either.

    I disagree with both of you. Have you by the way BF been to any of these “Christian” Churches? -> http://www.alittleleaven.com/

    You seem to be swimming in heretical center or something. Hope you find better places.

  • Butterfly Flower

    I disagree with both of you. Have you by the way BF been to any of these “Christian” Churches? -> http://www.alittleleaven.com/

    You seem to be swimming in heretical center or something. Hope you find better places.

    No, I’m a former Catholic. I prefer my fiance’s Christian church; it’s much more friendly to engaged couples/young married couples.

    Although I wasn’t complaining about Christian marriage preparation specifically; I’m just worried about any-type of ideology influencing marriage preparation courses. For example, a feminist marriage preparation course doesn’t sound like a good idea.

    We really don’t know what the marriage preparation text-books will say. That’s why I don’t think it’s worth the risk.

    …I’m actually tempted to go on an Amazon.com shopping spree and load my Kindle up with bestselling marriage preparation books. They must have various [amusing] theories pertaining to divorce. Heck, I bet a few of them advocate “ELP” divorce!

  • Stingray

    You’re a great character, I welcome your POV.

    Thank you very much.

    I hate to ruin a very nice compliment, but I gotta ask . . . Do you mean that in talking about my sense of humor? Sorry, the word character has many meanings.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stingray

      Do you mean that in talking about my sense of humor? Sorry, the word character has many meanings.

      Ah, I was not speaking about moral character in this case. I find you interesting, I enjoy reading your take on things. And yes, you have an excellent sense of humor.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Was just reading up on Elizabeth Gilbert. Apparently the writing was on the wall for a while regarding her marriage. She published an article in 1998 about a man who left the trappings of his suburban lifestyle in order to become a naturalist living in Appalachia. She subsequently turned this into a book entitled, “The Last American Man”.

    She was probably contemplating her escape for some time.

    Also, one has to wonder, if Eustace Conway, the guy she labeled “the last American man,” was indeed the “last”… what did it make her husband in her eyes?

  • WarmWoman

    @Babydoll

    “, I just find it hard to believe someone could do a 180 like that after a prolonged period.”

    Change can successfully happen, although I’m sure some people never do truly change. Think of alcoholics and mordbidly overweight people that turn their life around and stay that way. Some maintain many years of sobriety and keep the weight off, while others don’t. I think the same can apply to promiscuous people that want to stop.

    People change when they’re ready to stop living in denial and realize how something is harming them more than helping them. In the meantime, they keep making excuses to justify their behavior, which keeps them in that pattern.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Butterfly,

    I’m just worried about any-type of ideology influencing marriage

    Thing is, “marriage” is part of an ideology, and part of an agenda already. No ideology = no marriage.

  • Wudang

    Thank you Susan!!!! This was very good. I learnt some new things also. I never thought about EPL type divorces being predominantly a phenomenon amongst the educated but it makes a lot of sense. I still think though that the overal mentality of a marriage being expected to produce constant high tingles and soulmate type love is prevalent amongst the less educated and that this is a cause of much conflict but that when marriages amongst those less educated get sour because of the disapointment of too little tingles and soulmate feelings more cheating and violence etc. ensue. I also think the expectation that the man should defer to his wife is prevalent here to and contributes the dissatisfaction and conflict spiral in this group too. So although I think in a direct sense it is true that EPL divorce is not prevalent amongst the less educated I think the overal mentality behind it of something being wrong witht the husband unless there are constant high tingles and soulmate feelings is a factor there too. Even if you eliminated this mentality entirely I think the less resourcefull people are the more non frivolous reasons for divorce you would find in the relationshis though.

    To all the women in this thread: THANK YOU!! The degree towards you have taken a fair perspective on this really warms me and makes me hopefull and removes bitterness. I am also VERY happy to see suggestions such as those made by hope about what to do to prepare for marriage and to get and keep a man. That stuff helps a lot to make up for all the years of reading endless advice about I needed to do to please her without hering much about what a woman should do to please me. I have read countless books about sex and relationships over the years and the underlying model they followed was intstruct the man to do everything to please the woman and theach the woman how to get the man to do what she wanted. That was draining and made me bitter and angry. This couneracts that and makes me happy and hopefull. It is energizing. Its like finally someone wants to uphold their side of the contract and so I feel very inspired to uphold mine.

    About marriage preperation counselling. There is a researcher called Goffman that has had some stricking results in predicting relationship breakup/success. By filming couples talking about contentious issues and analysing the tapes they found what correlated with success/failure and cood predict with I think over 90% acuracy who would be together 5 or 7 or so years later. The key seemed to be 5 positive exchanges for every negative. Interestingly they found that they only needed to watch the tapes for a few minutes to get almost as good predictions as when watching for half an hour and that the predictions other untrained people had for the relationship was highly likely to be correct. They also found other things such as showing contempt (betas inspire contempt in women) being and almost a guarantee of breakup. Interestingly they called contempt emotional violence because it was so distructive towards the one on the receiving end.

    Goffman has made a marriage counseling program based on his research that aims to get couples to behave like the successfull 5 or more positive to each negative couples and learn to weed out stuff like contempt. I think amongst the conventional (non PUA) related relationship tools/trainings this might be a very good one. I hope Susan (and others) will look into it.

    I know a man who holds worshops about realtionships and gender dynamics in a way that is very similar to PUAs. He bases his courses on a very similar understanding of the feminine and masculine derived from taoist philosphy and David Deida (which is a cassic for a lot of PUAs and refered to some as a form of “overgame”, “metagame” or “deepgame”. He teaches people how to handle shit tests and how to communicate about the “matrix”/red pill of how gender dynamics actually work. He started this before hearing about game. I was actually the one that thought him about game. According to him, and I trust him a lot, the couples get very, very god results taking his courses. So I think there are definitively good ways that marriage prep classes can be taught.

  • Tom

    Interesting. Not one person responded to the poll I posted from ASKMEN.COM..I wonder why that is?..at the time of the posting it was germane to the conversation.
    FROM ASKMEN.COM..A pretty well known website frequented by millions of all kinds of men.

    Q…How many partners is OK with you when considering your next serious partner?

    less than 10……….36%
    10-20……………….7.3%
    21-30……………….0%
    30+………………….0%
    it does matter regardless………….56%

    Granted it was not a large poll, but…..just saying.

  • Ted D

    “People change when they’re ready to stop living in denial and realize how something is harming them more than helping them. In the meantime, they keep making excuses to justify their behavior, which keeps them in that pattern.”

    This is true, but the problem is that these folks have an increased likelihood of falling back to their old ways. Cheating or former promiscuous behavior, heavy drug and/or alcohol use, gambling addiction, etc. are all valid reasons in my eyes to be VERY careful when considering someone for a wife/husband. Yes, I have seen people make complete direction changes in their lives for the better and stick to it, many times in fact. However, in my experience these people often struggle for the rest of their lives to “keep clean” from whatever vice they suffered, and also tend to fall back on those vices when things get tough in life.

    So yes, I believe that a person can make a 180 in life and stick to it. I also believe that those people are a much bigger risk in terms of long lasting security in a relationship.

  • Wudang

    Oh, and about Gilbert. There might or might not have been other things wrong with her marriage but if an esteemed professor of law at Georgetown was not able to satisfy her hypergamy with regards to career/status she is a contemtible idiot.

  • Wudang

    contemptible idiot

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan -> Christiankp

    Although women can live without men, they cannot exist without society, and society cannot exist without men working for the benefit of women and children. The only way to make men working for women and children is for women to marry men and make them fathers of children – and when they have done this they must respect and celebrate the man for taking on responsibilities – and they should also be forgiving for minor missteps along the road.

    No they cant, women cant live wihout men, cant live fulfilling lives nor cant reproduce without men. Men and women need each other and any sex without the other fucks up and is imbalanced and the species die after a generation.

    This view that women only need men because of the work they put on society and measuring the value of men because of the work they do for women is bullshit of the highest caliber. If you dont see inner value in men as human beings, you dont deserve any of us nor deserve any of the fruits of the men´s hard work either.

    Christiankp, shut the fuck up.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami

      No they cant, women cant live wihout men, cant live fulfilling lives nor cant reproduce without men. Men and women need each other and any sex without the other fucks up and is imbalanced and the species die after a generation.

      I agree that women cannot live without men in the long-term. I have said many times that a society whose males are not thriving is doomed. However, we see today that there are a considerable number of women and men living without the other sex. The female group is called feminists and the male group is GTOW. It is disordered, but it’s occurring right now. Declining marriage rates——–>declining birth rates——–>species dies out.

  • Ted D

    Tom – I look at Askmen with the same contempt and mistrust as sites like GoodMenProject. I’ve seen plenty of “advice” from Askmen that was horrendous at best and downright destructive at worst, so I really don’t take anything from them as legitimate. I honestly can’t say who their primary audience is (other than men of course) so it could be an age issue, or perhaps men that go to Askmen are more promiscuous themselves? I mean, Doc love seems to attract some “interesting” guys to the site from the letters I’ve read.

    At any rate, it wouldn’t surprise me to find out that younger guys (mid-20′s and younger) aren’t as bothered by a woman’s partner count, because they have been hearing “numbers don’t matter” all their lives. But, I’d love to ask those same guys what they think when they are in their 30′s and already divorced with kids what they think of formerly promiscuous women.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    You mean nobody bit when you were trying to bait people into a discussion about dating promiscuous women? Strange.

  • Ted D

    Yahomi – “If you dont see inner value in men as human beings, you dont deserve any of us nor deserve any of the fruits of the men´s hard work either.”

    HELL YES! The fact that this even comes up (from both the MRA and the feminist side) just makes my head spin. Does anyone really and honestly believe we would survive perfectly without both sexes? Sure, we could artificially impregnate women (from stored sperm) or perhaps move on to cloning, but either of those scenarios will eventually degrade our genetic stock enough that we will die off.

    And that is just the biological stuff. What about the social costs? As much as we all like to come here and bash on the opposite sex from time to time, just about everyone benefits from opposite-sex interactions. Even the worst MRA woman hater or feminist man hater NEEDS the opposite sex. Otherwise who are they going to aim all that hate at?

    Seriously, any discussion of “living without the opposite sex” is mental masturbation. Perhaps ONE INDIVIDUAL can exist without interaction of the opposite sex, but as a species it is pure bunk.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Ted,

    The whole *needing* is bunk. Change “men” for blacks, whites, yellows, races, sexual orientations and any other group, including women and you´ll see how highly offensive the statement is.

    And then, its a lie, because the sex differentiation makes us complimentary and needed. Even if we could survive on artificial clonation (no women needed either) we would collapse. All of our instincts and mechanisms are prepared and differentiated taking in count both sexes exist – we need each other´s energy and interaction – we cant strive or survive in isolation.

    This “women dont need men” is pure bullshit. MEN is what women need the most. And most of they worry about that NEED all day long. And same applies for men.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Warm Woman,

    People change when they’re ready to stop living in denial and realize how something is harming them more than helping them. In the meantime, they keep making excuses to justify their behavior, which keeps them in that pattern.

    As someone who’s worked through a lot of “stuff” from my own childhood, I can totally sympathize with what you’re saying. People can (and do) change.

    However, I can see the opposite side of the argument as well. If a woman has a history of promiscuity, if she’s fucked guys who didn’t care about her, guys who only wanted NSA sex, etc… and then suddenly decides she wants something longterm and meaningful with a man, then the man would do well to ask himself what’s brought on this change. Is this a change in the way she perceives herself or is it merely a change of strategy in the pursuit of happiness? How does this woman see me? Does she think of me as:

    A. Captain to her first officer? Does she love and respect me? Does she see herself as working with me as part of a team? Does she respect my authority? Does she respect my masculinity? Does she value me for who I am and not just what I can do for her?

    Or, does she think of me as:

    B. Lighthouse to her storm-tossed vessel? Would she end up tossed against a rocky shore without me? Does she see me as the answer to all her problems (if so, you’ll soon BE the problems she’s seeking answers to)?

    The woman who sees you as the lighthouse doesn’t realize that she’s not simply a storm-tossed vessel. She’s both storm AND vessel. She’s going to blow a storm right into your life, in the same way Gilbert did to Cooper. So the promiscuous woman (or the woman with any stormy issues for that matter) needs to resolve all of those problems on her own first. First.

    That’s possible, of course. And it sounds like that’s exactly what you’ve done. But you can’t fault people for being wary.

  • J

    I never thought about EPL type divorces being predominantly a phenomenon amongst the educated but it makes a lot of sense. I still think though that the overal mentality of a marriage being expected to produce constant high tingles and soulmate type love is prevalent amongst the less educated

    While I really don’t know anyone who had had an EPL divorce in the sense that they left a spouse to pursue a life of adventure and self-discovery, I do see some people getting divorces for “soft” reasons like incompatibility or “being unhappy.” I think it’s a middle-upper class phenomenon mostly as a result of where these folks stand in Maslow’s heirarchy of needs. Because their basic needs–food, shelter, financial security–are satisfied, they begin to focus more on their emotional and spiritual needs. That is why “happiness,” amorphous as it might be in a relationship, has become paramount in these marriages and why finding “a soulmate” is more important than holding on to a provider. It’s also why doctors’ kids tend to become artists more often than bricklayer’s kids. They have all the material things they need, so they focus on self-expression and enjoying their work.

    Even if you eliminated this mentality entirely I think the less resourcefull people are the more non frivolous reasons for divorce you would find in the relationshis though.

    I also think that a lot of “firmer” reasons for divorce like abuse, addiction, etc. tend to keep people out of the middle class or endanger their middle class status. That skews the data towards UMC people divorcing for softer reasons.

    There is a researcher called Goffman that has had some stricking results in predicting relationship breakup/success.

    His name is John Gottman, and I agree he is amazingly helpful.

  • Tom

    Ted I agree with you about that site… Lots of players advice, but there are still some really good articles also.
    @ Jesus… more than likely Jesus people like you didnt respond because you have no defense to what it suggests. Personally I dont agree with its findings. I think, over all, more men than a little over half DO think it is a big deal. As I have stated here many times before. Im not down for a super slut, not because of her “number” but because of her mental makeup which she had , more than likely, before she became promiscuous. You see, we are not so different in our opinions. Im just a liite more tolerant as to a number and her reasoning….I have no problem with a discriminating woman who has had casual sex because she has a libido. Im not in favor of a woman who sleeps around for reasons of validity, or a slew of other mental imperfections

  • J

    She published an article in 1998 about a man who left the trappings of his suburban lifestyle in order to become a naturalist living in Appalachia.

    Thata’s what happens when the affluent become unhappy.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    To be honest, I think it suggests that the 44 (a study of 44 people responding over the internet) are simply not representative of the majority of men. That’s all. Or it means that some crazed sex-positive feminist voted for “it’s irrelevant” numerous times. Was it you? Who knows? It’s hardly a “study”.

    Whatever the case, it’s up to each man to decide for himself how he feels. I have no real defense against the findings of this internet “study”. Then again, I feel no need to defend myself against it. 100% of 100 thousand men could have said it didn’t matter to them and it wouldn’t have changed the way I feel about it.

  • J

    Even the worst MRA woman hater or feminist man hater NEEDS the opposite sex. Otherwise who are they going to aim all that hate at?

    It strikes me that in many cases, the hate is an expression of unfulfilled need.

  • lovelost

    @Susan #592

    I like the list of questions. Good screening questions.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    I don’t think that the feminists and the MRAs are going to cause the species to die out. They may die out, which may not be altogether bad. We’ve got 7 billion+ people crowding the planet. We can afford to lose the feminists and the MRA.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      I agree. It’s just Yohami’s argument taken all the way to its logical conclusion. It isn’t going to happen, because it will always be a small number of individuals.

  • Stingray

    I find you interesting, I enjoy reading your take on things

    Again, thank you. I feel like a schlep for asking you to clarify. Thanks for doing so.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stingray

      I feel like a schlep for asking you to clarify.

      Don’t, we should all ask for clarification more often, especially online. I know that when I get feedback, I’m very interested in understanding exactly what is meant.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “The marriage vows include ‘forsaking all others.’ If a man cheats, he has broken his vow and the marriage contract is null and void.”

    It’s interesting that this kind of thing invariably comes up, even from guys who claim to relationship-minded. The legacy of Doug1? Monogamy is clearly very difficult for a subset of men. I remember your post on Kate Bolick (?) talked about guys who were less than truthful about their relationship intentions.

    SDS taken to it’s logical conclusion = “sex positive” masculinism?

  • Stingray

    SDS

    Where’s Kari when I need him? What is this?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      SDS = sexual double standard

  • WarmWoman

    Jesus Mahoney:”That’s possible, of course. And it sounds like that’s exactly what you’ve done. But you can’t fault people for being wary.”

    I don’t mean to blame people that are weary. To be honest, I just realized that I would have “Will he do it again?” thoughts if a date revealed to me that he has cheated in the past or is recovering from alcoholism (even though I logically know that there’s a chance he won’t do it again). So, I think I can finally UNDERSTAND how a man would also be weary about women that have decided to give up casual sex. But, our actions and consistency over time can prove that we’ve changed.

    A woman leaning on a man to solve all of her problems is definitely dangerous. A man that wants to “save women” from their problems also is setting a relationship up for failure. I’m a firm believer in “If you’re miserable when you’re single, you’re going to be miserable when you’re dating or married.” It’s a shame how being single can be stigmatized, because it can be a great thing when you’re working on yourself and your happiness. Everything else will fall in place.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Megaman, I realized that after looking over the two lists. I think I wrote them that way because for men, what they consider good are often concrete actions that are practical and show the woman’s character, while for women, what we consider good are often related to the feelings the man invokes. I also wrote the other list years ago, when I was a bit more immature. :P

    If I were to add some points to the female list, they would likely be related to physical appearance, emotional support/respect and sexuality. But most women already know about how much men like sex and looks. There are women who are so good at those dimensions that men will marry them without regard to anything else. And those are often the men who come to regret it.

  • WarmWoman

    Ted D-

    Definitely honor your gut feeling, if something makes you uncomfortable.

    You know…..I think I also understand why people would be weary, because they haven’t had personal experience with these things themselves. We tend to date/marry our “equals”, and two people with similar struggles would less likely have a problem with each other.I feel a bit embarrassed for getting irritated nd snarky at a poster in another thread, but I can see why some people wouldn’t want to date based on my life experiences. If someone can’t relate to me, I can’t force them. Just like I can’t relate to dating a recovering addict, because I’ve never dabbled in drugs or abusing alchol myself.

  • WarmWoman

    Typo..I meant to say that I can see why some people wouldn’t want to date ME based on my life experiences…and I think I’m comfortable with that at this point.

  • Olive

    JM,

    She published an article in 1998 about a man who left the trappings of his suburban lifestyle in order to become a naturalist living in Appalachia. She subsequently turned this into a book entitled, “The Last American Man”.

    Why do affluent people romanticize poverty? Appalachia is, like, the poorest, most miserable part of the U.S. I’m pretty sure the people living there aren’t “naturalists”…more like dirt poor, living off the income they get from selling prescription drugs to addicts.

    I had this professor when I studied abroad who thought that poor subsistence farmers shouldn’t try to integrate the market, that they should just stick with subsistence. She seemed to think absolute poverty (like, living without electricity and health care) is preferable to living in conditions when you have access to all of those things. The thing is, I didn’t see her going to live off the land; she lived in a house in the city. That seems to be Elizabeth Gilbert’s attitude. Go live in Bali, then get back to real life.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @J, I think that kind of divorce is not too awful when you have no kids and both people are just not compatible, because then both people are free to start a family with others. But it is very irresponsible after you have kids.

    I’m a child of divorce, and I know how much it sucks. My father left my mother, remarried, had two more daughters, and then left his second wife recently. When I asked him over the phone why he was getting a divorce, his response was, “bored.”

    My half-sisters are both under 6 or so.

    All of the worst cases I’ve heard involved expensive lawyers and litigation, alimony, child support, and children.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Olive…”I had this professor when I studied abroad who thought that poor subsistence farmers shouldn’t try to integrate the market, that they should just stick with subsistence.”

    This seems to be a common opinion among academics. I think one could make a pretty funny movie about some professor who is magically transported to a subsistence farming village in Latin America or, even better, to a Sioux Indian tribe on the Great Plains circa 1840.

  • Olive

    Susan,

    I agree that women cannot live without men in the long-term. I have said many times that a society whose males are not thriving is doomed. However, we see today that there are a considerable number of women and men living without the other sex. The female group is called feminists and the male group is GTOW. It is disordered, but it’s occurring right now. Declining marriage rates——–>declining birth rates——–>species dies out.

    I do agree with JM that the species dying out isn’t really a primary concern. And I also agree with Yohami that this “women don’t need men” meme is dangerous. I often wonder if it’s part of the reason why women feel comfortable divorcing for frivolous reasons… because they think they can “do it themselves,” find themselves by themselves, all of that Women Need Men Like Fish Need a Bicycle stuff.

    Even as recently as November, I was still trying to wrap my head around the notion that I need a man. It makes it sound like women are weak, and that’s definitely how feminists have interpreted it. But if you realize that men also need women, it doesn’t become a question of which sex is weaker, or which sex has the most power. It’s just that we fit together, on both biological and emotional levels. I can’t fall in love with a woman (and never could unless I was a lesbian).

  • Stingray

    Why do affluent people romanticize poverty?

    I don’t think their intent is to romanticize poverty and really don’t realize they are doing so. I believe their intent is actually to romanticize going back to a simpler time. A time when one’s concern is to put food on the table and not the deadline of one’s next project. One can see the very real utility of going out for a hunt and bringing back meat for the family to live off of. It is often very difficult to see the real utility of spending days on a project for you manager and then never really knowing if the guy spent more than 5 minutes looking at it.

    Obviously, abject poverty is very different that this. I just don’t think they care to think it through.

  • Stingray

    It’s just that we fit together,

    And then become much stronger.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Olive,

    It’s just that we fit together, on both biological and emotional levels.

    That.

    Women need men like fish need other fish.

    BTW the original quote before the feminist tweak was “Men need God like a fish needs a bicycle” and even that one is off, since its more like “people need God like kids need a father”. Even if you dont believe in God you end up with something else to fit that default “higher order of things” void.

    The sexes have a void to be filled with each other. Thats how it works.

  • Olive

    Stingray,
    Interesting perspective. It’s strange though, it’s like a desire to live in a past they never experienced. But it’s not even a desire, because they never stay in those subsistence farming villages or poverty-ridden hills for longer than a few weeks, or maybe a few years. The ultimate plan is always to come back to “civilization.” To me, it’s a watered-down, academic, PC version of “real happiness,” but it’s incredibly demeaning if you think about it. “Well I’m going back to my expensive SUV and nice house and great health benefits now, but you people keep fighting the good fight, you’re successfully living the life I’ve secretly wanted to live” *pats on head.* IMO that kind of attitude is obnoxious because it doesn’t recognize hardships. We’ve been allowed to come so far, why should we want to keep others from doing so?

  • Olive

    And then become much stronger.

    Yes! I love the idea of finding myself alongside someone else.

  • christiankp

    Yohami

    I think you should be a little more careful when you are laying you words. I don’t need to fucking shut up and you have insulted me.

    If you had taken care of reading my whole post I think that you would have understood that I myself don’t believe that women can live fulfilled lives without men. Otherwise, why should I bother to mention the angst of Kate Bolick?

    However, I did not want to go into a discussion of women’s immediate and direct need of having a man, but to show the indirect costs for women when they break down the institution of marriage. And the indirect costs for women are tremendous and much greater than the costs for men.

    The first indirect cost to women as marriage is breaking down is that they must do the reproductive work themselves including breadwinning without the help of men. For some time they have succeeded in replacing men by the state, but they cannot continue to do this forever.

    The problem is that the only way society gets power over men is by placing them in the top of the dependency chain called family as a breadwinner. As breadwinners men are forced to work for the best of their wife and their children. Thereby they are doing things that are to the benefit whole society.

    When women chose not to marry, and eventually getting a child on their own – which is in fact possible although you deny it, they are loosing a lot more than the immediate support of a man, because men without families do not need to work as much as breadwinners do. The surplus of wealth that has made it possible for women to live without a man will be eroded and poverty and death will be the fate of many children.

    I see a lot of inner values in men, but these inner qualities are not those that will force feminism to a halt as feminists and many women with them do not appreciate them. They only see us as rapists and child molesters (Susan is one of few women who see inner qualities in men).

    Feminism may come to a halt because more women realize that they need men in their life as it’s getting more difficult for women to get married. I hope so. But at very least I know that women will be forced back in marriage as they will be missing both the work done by men in the home and the work done by men in the workforce.

  • tvmunson

    J#668-”spot on” as the limeys say
    #666-Amend that only in that kids from affluence may know the limits of material accumulation in terms of “happiness”; children from want still see accumulation as buying off all evils.

    Baby Love # 640-love to be addressed as “counsel”; all attorneys do and only the very refined know to do it. Credit cards=hard lesson; point is you learned. Not enough do.

    #630 christian “Occassional infidelity” on the part of a man a “minor misstep”? How occassional? Are we to assume a woman’s occassional infidelity is a “major misstep”? Why? Because she isn’t the breadwinner? Steel trap logic that. The Catholics have a concept called “occassion of sin”; roughly it means if you place yourself in a position where you know it is likely you will sin and do you cannot be then ask to seek forgiveness and are thusunable to receive grace. Confession is not a spiritual car wash; if you are repentant, you can be forgiven, but you must change. If you fail to do so, you are damned. Your “occassional infidelity” remark fails to consider that sex is not a sneeaze. It is a considered act of both physical and emotional intimacy that changes the person who engages it it. Jesus said no man can serve 2 masters; similarly, a man cannot be in 2 places at once as reagrds fidelity, commitment, and love. If he’s “getting it on the side” he’s leaving some of his emotional self there just as assuredly as he is leaving his seminal discharge. This will ahve consequences for him, his marriage, his children if any, perhaps even for the chippy he’s doing it with unless she is in fact an actual as opposed to rhetorical whore.

    A man disclosing to his wife makes this better!? BULLSHIT! If he is truly over this conduct and will no longer engage in that activity, disclosing to her will only gratuitously hurt her and will only be done IN A SELFISH ATTEMPT TO EXPIATE HIS GUILT AND HAVE HER ADOPT A POST-COITAL RATIFICATION OF HIS CONDUCT SO HE DOESN’T FEEL GUILtY ANYMORE! If he is not going to change, is in fact going to continue having affairs or whatever the hell “occassional infidelity” is then he is importuning her to accept the situation, get on with it and allow him to operate without guilt. Again, all about him-narcissistic,self-indulgent, destructive juvenile puerilence, inflicting pain everywhere for ego- stroking transitory sexual encounters. And it really gets down to this-you want to be free, get out of the marriage. Pay the price. Take the consequences, which won’t be entirely yours, in fact for your family will be considerably more painful than your own. That’s as much of being a man as you’ll be able to salvage out of this situation.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      a man cannot be in 2 places at once as reagrds fidelity, commitment, and love. If he’s “getting it on the side” he’s leaving some of his emotional self there just as assuredly as he is leaving his seminal discharge. This will ahve consequences for him, his marriage, his children if any, perhaps even for the chippy he’s doing it with unless she is in fact an actual as opposed to rhetorical whore.

      So true and very well said. You’ve been on fire, lately, Munson.

      Again, all about him-narcissistic,self-indulgent, destructive juvenile puerilence, inflicting pain everywhere for ego- stroking transitory sexual encounters. And it really gets down to this-you want to be free, get out of the marriage. Pay the price. Take the consequences, which won’t be entirely yours, in fact for your family will be considerably more painful than your own. That’s as much of being a man as you’ll be able to salvage out of this situation.

      +1 + +1 = +2

  • Tom

    @ Jesus, “Was it you?”…..lol nice. So you DO have a sense of humor…

  • Stingray

    We’ve been allowed to come so far, why should we want to keep others from doing so?

    I agree with you, to a certain extent. Regarding academics who feel this way? I think, for the most part, they are pretty much idiots and don’t think much beyond “Oh, how quaint! Oh my, don’t I just wish I had the courage to do that!” Well, no. They don’t wish they had the courage. It’s more like you said. They are being more condescending than anything and doing the fake charity thing.

    However, for the people who do think this through, who would truly like to return to their roots as it were, it is more about not wanting to see these people exposed to the harsh realities of the modern world. There was real warmth between people who lived in the past in this manner. There was a lot less thinking of oneself and a whole lot more of thinking of ones family and ones community first. I think it is this that people miss and they are willing (or would be) to take all the hardships and manual labor that is involved with this way of living.

  • Joe

    Marriage is hard. Not everyone should do it.
    (Most men aren’t man enough to know when they can keep a promise or not)
    This should not be a battle of the sexes over why it does or does not work.

    Ever had a partner in anything? Business, law, war? How many are still with you after 10-20 years? I still roll with my old friends. If you have loyal friends and colleagues you may have what it takes to get married.

    A spouse is supposed to be your best friend, not a fuck buddy you can tolerate. My wife is a former soldier as myself, we have worked together and served together, we are not a couple, we are a team, our marriage is an institution. ….. maybe the cohesion is the reason we still have sex everyday after a decade when most of you have the wandering eye after two months, maybe its partly common interest that keeps the love from fading.. I know a big part of it is honesty and respect.

    Marriage is serious business, if you can’t handle it stay the fuck out of it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe

      I like the description of your marriage. That is 100% commitment, and I respect it enormously.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    christiankp,

    Instead of shutting up you decided to speak up. I like it.

    You´r comment makes sense, still, it appeals to the “women dont need men” nonsense, and tries to circunvey it to show them the costs of that posture.

    I find any explanation about the costs of disregarding men as disgusting as explaining “why its bad to kill black people” or “the hidden costs of raping”. When you have to lay down didactic explanations of why something like that has “costs”, there´s something rotten, profoundly broken and perturbed down there.

    Kate Bolic = doesnt deserve a man, nor deserves the explanations. If anything maybe some therapy. Humanities 101.

  • Höllenhund

    “The marriage vows include ‘forsaking all others.’ If a man cheats, he has broken his vow and the marriage contract is null and void.”

    BS.

    “Thanks to the copious and serious changes to marriage and divorce law, the current legal definition of marriage is utterly different than the recent historical one. It’s not even clear if there can even be “infidelity” as there’s usually no mention of sexual rights or agreements in the marriage / divorce / adultery laws in most States. There’s usually no definition of sexual “fidelity” in the marriage contract to even fail at. Most people just assume sexual fidelity is a requirement of marriage simply because it used to be. It may be the spirit of the agreement, but it’s not the actual legal agreement.”

    http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/10/from-talk-about-marriage-forums.html

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      I didn’t refer to the legal definition, I referred to the spoken contract between two people to one another at the time of the marriage. The vows themselves vary enormously among religions, even churches within religions, and of course people have always been free to write their own vows. It’s not the wording of the vows that makes the marriage legal.Most vows speak of loving, cherishing, honoring, etc. For me, each one of those words means monogamy.

      There may be some people who marry without intending monogamy – “as long as we both shall love,” or Eban Pagan’s shouting “There are no sins in this marriage!” For them, infidelity is not applicable. For everyone else, though it certainly is, and anyone would be insane to marry without a comprehensive understanding with their partner on this point.

      In any case, not all people will divorce for infidelity, but they have every right to.

  • tvmunson

    Editor #700

    It so happens that recently I have been called upon to address areas I take by turns seriously (my profession) and (somewhat) passionately (the immediate above). My spelling error reflect this. Thank you for your remarks.

  • tvmunson

    errors

  • Höllenhund

    “However, we see today that there are a considerable number of women and men living without the other sex. The female group is called feminists and the male group is GTOW. It is disordered, but it’s occurring right now. Declining marriage rates——–>declining birth rates——–>species dies out.”

    Birth rates aren’t declining because of the disappearance of marriage. They’ve been declining for a long time simply because people are increasingly able to control their reproduction. Human evolutionary programming is unprepared for such an ability, which is why demographic implosion is taking place all around the world.

    Again, I ask you to stop with the parallels between MGTOW and feminism. There’s nothing similar between them. The two concepts are in fact diametrically opposed. Feminism is about giving in to socio-cultural programming and swallowing the lies. Going your own way is about firmly rejecting both. Women become spinsters when they completely fail to comprehend their own natural urges and then become the victims of their own hypergamy. Men go their own way when they fully comprehend their natural urges, learn to master them and avoid getting victimized by the consequences of their own sexual nature.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Again, I ask you to stop with the parallels between MGTOW and feminism. There’s nothing similar between them. The two concepts are in fact diametrically opposed.

      They may be opposed, but that does not mean that there is no similarity in their behavior or strategy. In this case, those two groups are living largely without the other sex, regardless of their motivations. The end result is the same. They’re not reproducing.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Olive, I wrote a long-ish response to your comments here:

    http://www.rosehope.com/poverty/

    @Stingray, good thoughts. I think Utah is one the few places that still has a good community base. People here still get married young and have solid family values.

  • Jonny

    The affluent who tout the green economy also have very expensive tastes. It’s as if reading the price tag has no significance. Money does cost CO2. Every dollar spent is another dollar that could be used destructively. I’m only saying this not because I agree with the progressive agenda.

    The rich who seem to want to go back to poverty don’t know the hardships those people have. I certainly don’t want to go back to that, which is why I’m happily paying the mortgage of my home, doing Power Points for a boss who does read them, and paying my taxes and retirement benefits. I enjoy using my car and using the latest front loading washing machine. I don’t want to convert to Buddahism or Confucianism, which is my ancestral asian background. I am a happy Christian and most people I know are Christians.

    I adhere to the Western concept of marriage. The Eastern concept is certainly more strict, yet at the same time, more liberal. There is soft polygamy, which can never be legislated out. More opportunity for casual sex with bar maids if you happen to live there. Beta males have a chance if you’re willing to pay the price and the price is sex is rather low.

  • tvmunson

    HH #701

    What do you mean by legal agreement? Do you mean if I have an affair my wife cannot sue me for breach of (marital) contract? True, nor I her. If you want to stay married after infidelity, fine. Marriage creates certain rights, but suing for bareach of contract isn’t one of them. I have been married for 30 1/2 years. There is no “contract”-in fact I have never seen one if you mean a written contract.Your quote appears to assume somehow there might be if I get your meaning. If my wife cheated o me I’d sue her FOR DIVORCE, not breach of contract. The only grounds I’d need are irreconcilable differences; no need to let kids, or anyone who reads public pleadings, what happened.

  • Stingray

    Hollenhund:

    The only comparison she made about the two groups is that is that each is (for the most part) living without the opposite sex. And in that way, they are similar.

    (I do think that many feminists would like a man in their life, however. They are simply unwilling to accept what it is that men truly want.)

  • Just1X

    @Hollenhund

    “Feminism is about giving in to socio-cultural programming and swallowing the lies. Going your own way is about firmly rejecting both. Women become spinsters when they completely fail to comprehend their own natural urges and then become the victims of their own hypergamy. Men go their own way when they fully comprehend their natural urges, learn to master them and avoid getting victimized by the consequences of their own sexual nature.”

    Very nice.

    I’d like to add that I think that MGTOW / MRAs are not, on the whole, looking for power over women. Feminism seeks female supremacy. The level of mouth frothing hate peddling denial of reality on feminist sites is truely disgusting. I have not seen the mirror image of such depravity on men’s rights sites.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      Well, I’ve never seen an MRA calling for the extermination of women, as some feminists have done about men. However:

      Feminism seeks female supremacy.

      Present company excepted, Dalrock’s threads are full of male supremacists.

  • christiankp

    tvmunson
    Maybe “occasional” was a bad word, but English is not my mother tongue, sorry. I meant once or under very extraordinary conditions maybe twice.

    A person who is committing adultery has broken his/her word. There is many ways for the spouse to handle this apart from divorce without losing her face. To forgive is not to accept or tolerate.

    You are very harsh in your words against your fellow human being doing the wrong thing. I hope that you will always do the right thing so that no one will get the opportunity to deem you as hard as you deem him or her.

    As a married man of more than thirty years I have of course an opinion of adultery. I for one has never committed it, but I have also decided that I would forgive my wife for it had she committed it –which she had not. Not that I would have accepted it – and not that everything would have been unchanged. But I firmly believe that my hurt feelings are not as important in this world as the faith of our children. And they will live a better life all their life when their parents are living together. And then marriage is an institution in society, which you are not allowed to break. To me there should be only three legitimate reasons for divorce: 1) physical abuse, 2) repeated infidelity and 3) cuckoldry.

    The reason I have come to this conclusion is that the condoned praxis of today where you marry and divorce, maybe several times in a life time, making a hell of life for your children, is detrimental to all.

    I cannot se one instance of infidelity as as great a sin as divorcing because you have found another or “to find yourself”. I am not Christian but I may remind you that the flesh is weak (Both male and female), and that he who is without sin may throw the first stone.

    And in deciding to stay married we have a lot of other things to take care of than our own hurt feelings and mistrust of our spouse.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @christiankp

      . But I firmly believe that my hurt feelings are not as important in this world as the faith of our children. And they will live a better life all their life when their parents are living together.

      Ah, that changes things somewhat. I can say with certainty that I would divorce my husband for one act of adultery now, and would have before we had children. However, I would likely have worked through it if it occurred when my children were growing up, for the reason you state. I don’t kid myself though – our marriage would never have been the same again. Something important would have been lost forever.

  • tvmunson

    For what it is worth, I think the formulation of the marriage vows from the Book of Common Prayer is the most concise expression of the marriage institution that exists. Were it in my power, I would have everyone recite it (with modification) like the Pledge of Allegiance,sing it like the National Anthem (ok better than that-most of us don’t or can’t sing the NA), say it before going out to party Friday and Saturday night, I’d have it inscribed fully in every 10th sidewalk slab, in front of banks, erect monuments in schoolyards and parks with it, put it at the base of the Statue of Liberty.
    My wife and I recited them, and the pastor recited these, which I wrote, and I’m transcribing from memory:

    “Susan and Thomas
    In these first moments of your marriage, remember that your first duty is to love. Love is an act of courage. Do not let the cares and worries of everyday life vitiate the power of this act.

    Renew each day the vows you have taken here before us.
    Thomas and Susan, go now as husband and wife.
    Go in peace.”
    August 17, 1981

  • christiankp

    Yohami
    We cannot disagree on this point.
    It is disgusting that we need to argue economically to convince women that they need men.
    But as I se it, this is the position we’re in. Too many women today cannot se longer than to their immediate gains. And we must reach women with arguments before this society fall apart. So every argument that may get one or two women to think are good arguments.

  • christiankp

    Just1x
    But I thing that MGTOW is a very important factor in forcing women back into marriage. It is very important that women may now feel the scarcity of marriage opportunities so that they can put themselves together, finding out what they value in life, and woman up.

  • Höllenhund

    @Ted

    “Does anyone really and honestly believe we would survive perfectly without both sexes?…As much as we all like to come here and bash on the opposite sex from time to time, just about everyone benefits from opposite-sex interactions.”

    All this is true – to a certain point. There are two things you need to keep in mind with regard to this issue.

    1. The natural state of humans is serial monogamy coupled with opportunistic cheating, with NO legal or social ability whatsoever on the part of EITHER sex to force its own norms onto the other in any way. That’s how the sexes have lived in harmony for hundreds of thousands of years. (The downside is that civilization cannot exist in such an environment, because civilization necessitates wealth creation, which in turn requires lifelong monogamy i.e. the suppression of both male and female sexual preferences.)

    When this state of existence disappears, OR lifelong monogamy is no longer forced onto everyone, male and female sexual preferences collide and harmony between the sexes is impossible. In such a situation, separation from the opposite sex becomes a logical choice for many people.

    2. Every society has regulated male-female interaction and enforced a certain level of gender separation. This is hardly a coincidence. When men have men-only places and circles where they can temporarily be free from women’s BS, it benefits their psychological well-being.

  • christiankp

    tvmunson
    “In these first moments of your marriage, remember that your first duty is to love. Love is an act of courage.”

    I totally agree – and that means that love is also to stay in your marriage when it hurts.

  • Olive

    Stingray at 697,
    Really good points! You should check Hope’s post in response to this discussion, she has an interesting perspective to add.

  • Höllenhund

    @tvmunson

    “Do you mean if I have an affair my wife cannot sue me for breach of (marital) contract?”

    No. It means she’s free to divorce you anytime whether you had an affair or not. In other words, there’s no necessary legal or even logical connection between infidelity and divorce.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In other words, there’s no necessary legal or even logical connection between infidelity and divorce.

      But there is a moral one.

  • Olive

    Every society has regulated male-female interaction and enforced a certain level of gender separation. This is hardly a coincidence. When men have men-only places and circles where they can temporarily be free from women’s BS, it benefits their psychological well-being.

    Interesting… for that last sentence, if I replaced “men” with “women,” would you cosign it?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Höllenhund,

    civilization necessitates wealth creation, which in turn requires lifelong monogamy

    I fail to see that connection. Wealth creation = lifelong monogamy. How? Can you explain it?

  • tvmunson

    christian #712

    Your amendatory remarks change everything. I was unaware of your English limitations; you write very well. You meant a lapse; occassional does not meant that. “One instance”-that is not what your missive conveys. Of course a one time thing is forgivable; but question: why tell her? It’s done , if it truly is over, then swallow your medicine, live with the guilt, infuse your marriage and family with the energy you derive from contemplating that guilt. Telling her will hurt, gain nothing, make her suspicious . I believe “no upside” equals a “downside” and I can discern no upside in telling her about a defalcation which carries no implications for the marriage.

  • Höllenhund

    “Wealth creation = lifelong monogamy.”

    No, it’s the other way around. Civilization endures only when all men are working as law-abiding pack mules to their maximum ability until they die. There’s no other way to create wealth. The only way to incentivize young men to voluntarily sign up for this hellish existence is to basically “give” them young female virgins as wives, force said wives to a) have sex with them and only them pretty much whenever he wants it b) bear and raise his children, give the husband legal authority over his family and require him to support them. That’s how succesful civilizations work in a nutshell.

  • tvmunson

    HH #719

    I agree. That’s been true since the institution of “No Fault” divorce 40 or more years ago. Prior to that in many states you HAD to list grounds for divorce, and they were specific: adultery, abandonment, physical abuse etc. Many people lied to obtain them, admitting to adulteries they had not committed. There was also “extreme” mental anguish, which I think is what wafted into the watered down version in No Fault-”irreconcilable differences”. Thanks for getting us caught up.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    When men have men-only places and circles where they can temporarily be free from women’s BS, it benefits their psychological well-being.

    That sounds like MDI/Sterling men’s group stuff. Weird people. I’ve met some.

    I agree that it’s great for men to hang out with men and for women to hang out with women, to separate, and do their own thing. I love to play pool, for example. And though it’s fun to go with a mixed crowd, too, it’s different when it’s just the guys. I wouldn’t necessarily call women’s stuff “BS” though.

    And I wouldn’t recommend for guys to get together naked in a “circle” and free themselves from women’s “BS”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      And I wouldn’t recommend for guys to get together naked in a “circle” and free themselves from women’s “BS”.

      This cracked me up. BTW, I read an article talking about the built-in homoeroticism in fraternities. One thing they do is watch porn together, and of course they all get very aroused at the same time. This has, apparently, led to the circle jerk becoming more common.

  • Olive

    force said wives to a) have sex with them and only them pretty much whenever he wants it

    Well gee, you make it sound like women hate sex, and you have to coerce them into it. Nah. I don’t need to be asked twice.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Höllenhund,

    No, it’s the other way around.

    So “lifelong monogamy = wealth creation”? I still dont see it.

    Civilization endures only when all men are working as law-abiding pack mules to their maximum ability until they die. There’s no other way to create wealth.

    As I see it, until the recent credit bubble and fake money printer, the wealth creation was a single trick pony: exploitment of resources, exploitment of lower classes, segregation, concentration, slavery in diverse forms, big fish eats smaller fish, colonization, etc.

    The richer families usually prosper with cheating and harems, the poorer families are not amassing wealth. The few outlier men who jumped from lower to upper classes didnt do that by being monogamous but by playing outside of the societal rules (coming up with inventions, having unprecedent business skills, going to war and wining, stealing, etc).

    The only way to incentivize young men to voluntarily sign up for this hellish existence is to basically “give” them young female virgins as wives, force said wives to a) have sex with them and only them pretty much whenever he wants it b) bear and raise his children, give the husband legal authority over his family and require him to support them.

    That, of course, the civil relationships order, it placates and creates some order and stability…. but I´ve always seen both things as parallels, among many other arrangements? not one as the cause of the other?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Christian,

    But I thing that MGTOW is a very important factor in forcing women back into marriage. It is very important that women may now feel the scarcity of marriage opportunities so that they can put themselves together, finding out what they value in life, and woman up.

    Don’t kid yourself. MGTOW are basically guys who are soured on the fact that women don’t really want them to begin with. I don’t think they’re forcing anything. I don’t think there are many women losing sleep over MGTOW.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Höllenhund,

    Maybe you mean that monogamy is how the upper classes keep the lower classes content and stable?

  • Höllenhund

    “That sounds like MDI/Sterling men’s group stuff. Weird people. I’ve met some.”

    You’re aware that men have always had their own separate social circles until feminism destroyed them in the West, aren’t you? Golf clubs, gentlemen’s clubs etc? Even in the most primitive tribes men normally have their separate large hut where they can gather. Women used to be legally banned from entering certain pubs in the UK. And the list goes on.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You’re aware that men have always had their own separate social circles until feminism destroyed them in the West, aren’t you?

      And women had the Red Tent, sewing circles, caring for babies together, etc. I agree with Jesus, it’s normal and healthy for the sexes to socialize single sex. And it’s really quite easy to do, even today.

  • Anna

    @ tvmunson
    The personal financial troubles in the US has a lot to due with the economy, a terrible legislation and how people have credit cards thrown at them. I have no doubt the financial system in the US shares the responsibility for many divorces. Combined with the love of consumption and how important most teenagers think it is to have what Kim Kardashian has.

    I’m not completely against owning ONE credit card, I have one myself, used on one occasion when my bank card needed to be renewed. Other than that I don’t use it for one main reason: my mother was very strict about not spending money you don’t have. If you need more, work to get more. Furtermore, it is much much more difficult to get a credit card back home, with the applications and proofs of income etc etc. A change in that would make lives easier long-term for the American population.

  • Höllenhund

    @Olive

    “Well gee, you make it sound like women hate sex, and you have to coerce them into it.”

    Keep in mind that I’m talking about mandatory assortative mating, which frustrates female hypergamy. So yeah, married sex probably normally wasn’t that fantastic for the wife.

  • tvmunson

    Christian #717

    “Stay in your marriage”-absolutely agree. One of the things about kids, when it gets down to “hole” cards, kids give you a very very real reason to fight even when the marriage tread has worn all the way through and you’re riding on the rims (talk about mixing metaphors! editor!). Every marriage has tough times; every long term married couple (ok lawyers-I’m being rhetorical) has fights that get heated and the “d’ word gets tossed. I look at a marriage as 2 planets orbiting the sun; husband and wife are the planets, the sun is the marriage. Sometimes your orbit is further away, and your spouse provides the “gravity” that keeps you in, brings you back around, restores you in the “system”. And then it’s the reverse, she’s a little farther out, removed, detached, whatever, and you “pull” her back. Kids can provide extra “gravity” when the 2 of you are seriously “misaligned”. What you need to prevent is a “total eclipse”.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hollendhund,

    Sure. Are you in a men’s group now that meets in a circle?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Maybe you mean that monogamy is how the upper classes keep the lower classes content and stable?

    Too conspiracy theory-ish. Sure, monogamy creates stability, but to call it some upper class scheme to keep the lower classes content is…. a stretch.

  • Escoffier

    I suppose I might be able to “forgive” wifely infidelity in the religious or philosophic sense. Eventually.

    But remain married to her? Go on living with her? Hell no.

  • christiankp

    JH
    MGTOW are bitter and of course women are not loosing sleep over them but maybe they should. When a man become bitter it has reasons. Maybe he has been hurt on the dating scene, maybe in marriage. Maybe as an MGTOW he is not much of a loss to women.
    But if the climate between men and women had been better, he may not have been a bitter man GTOW. Maybe he had been an attractive beta.

  • Orig.Anon.

    Mun and Susan:

    There is most definitely a marriage “contract”. There is also a slightly different “contract” if you only boff. You have various rights granted by the state and many more removed. There is no legally required “til death do you part.” There is no legally required “love, honor, cherish.” There is no legal monogamy/faithfulness. You can quit marriage for any or no reason just like you can end an LTR or quit a job. Except that, married or not, society works to make sure that men always pay for kids; only question is how much. It’s not even remotely encouraged that men raise kids, but understand that men will be tossed in jail if they don’t pay. Society even has the wonderful phrase, “deadbeat dad,” so you can truly understand how much society values men.

    It’s total BS to bring up the wedding vows when family law purposefully, and intentionally, makes the wedding vows, even if you both sign them as a prenup, unenforceable. The wedding vows are unenforcible in court, just like all other illegal contracts. Society treats the wedding vows like a contract to become a slave or whore or some other deviant, reprehensible promise.

    Marriage is a whole packet of legal obligations made “take it or leave it” by society. The deal you can take or leave most often means: If your wife cheats, she gets the kids and you pay. If you cheat, she gets the kids and you pay. If you’re unhappy, she gets the kids and you pay. If she’s unhappy, she gets the kids and you pay. No matter what, society has ensured that women typically get what they want most. If you are like many men and you really want “your” kids, you have to fight for them and most likely you’ll be able to share them. You’ll get the leftovers, typically. Don’t forget you’ll pay for the meal.

    Men are 2nd class “parents” at best. I have resolved to quit using the word parent; resolving only to use mother and father due to the false equivalence of applying a single word “parent” to men and women. See the whole cuckolding conversation for example #657.

    Susan, can you understand how I often wonder if there is actual malice in people when they bring up the wedding vows? It’s NOT the deal you’re getting! No matter what you say at the alter… it. doesn’t. count.

    Still, thank you very much for this post, Susan. I do believe you have good intentions. I just don’t think good intentions, like wedding vows, are enough to make marriage anything rational for men.

    Kids are a totally irrational idea too, so you have that going for you. I have never dreamt of having kids, but I don’t have any way of knowing what i’d think today or what my life would be like without them. Also, I have always been turned off by adoption as a “no thoughts of kids” example. It feels like a cuckolding without the deception; still not good enough. I can imagine raising a close friend or family member’s kid, that I already know and love, but that’s as far as I can imagine.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s total BS to bring up the wedding vows when family law purposefully, and intentionally, makes the wedding vows, even if you both sign them as a prenup, unenforceable.

      Two people can make a contract and enforce it themselves. If one violates it, the contract is null and void. I’m not talking about suing anyone to extract resources. I’m simply saying that breaking the promise implicit in monogamous marriage leaves the injured party free to walk away without blame. It’s the exact same principle as ending any relationship because an important promise was broken. It could be a business relationship, a friendship, etc.

  • Höllenhund

    @Yohami

    “So “lifelong monogamy = wealth creation”? I still dont see it.”

    Lifelong monogamy enables wealth creation. I cannot put it in more simple terms.

    “wealth creation was a single trick pony: exploitment of resources, exploitment of lower classes, segregation, concentration, slavery in diverse forms, big fish eats smaller fish, colonization, etc.”

    I don’t think there’s a contradiction, really. Exploitation merely means the partial confiscation of the surplus wealth created by the masses. But that’s the point – they were creating wealth in the first place. Only patriarchies practising lifelong monogamy are capable of that. And the confiscation was only partial – that’s why even the lower classes saw their standard of living more or less steadily rise through the centuries in successful patriarchies.

    “Maybe you mean that monogamy is how the upper classes keep the lower classes content and stable?”

    …and thus preserve social stability, yes. But the upper classes were practising monogamy as well. Yeah, the men often had mistresses, but it was kept discrete and female cheating wasn’t tolerated.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The sexes have a void to be filled with each other. Thats how it works.

    James Joyce on men and women: “…equals of opposites, evolved by a onesame power of nature or of spirit, iste, as the sole condition and means of its himundher manifestation and polarised for reunion by the symphysis of their antipathies.”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    christian,

    I don’t believe that betas really exist. But I think it’s true that the whole MGTOW points to something very wrong in our society. The same way that the rise of narcissism points to something wrong in our society.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    Too conspiracy theory-ish. Sure, monogamy creates stability, but to call it some upper class scheme to keep the lower classes content is…. a stretch.

    I figure. But if monogamy is “enforced” like H says…

  • Mike C

    >If only I could keep tabs at work but they’ve blocked this site. And there’s only so long before my furious finger tapping on my iPhone draws some disturbed looks from my boss.

    How to beat the work filter on HUS without looking like you are texting on your phone all day

    I’m assuming most corporate filters don’t block Gmail. Mine doe not. So open Gmail and write yourself an e-mail with the HUS comment you want to post. Better yet, type the comment out on the corporate e-mail program so it looks like a work e-mail and then copy and paste it when done into Gmail to yourself.

    Now you should be able to open the e-mail from your phone (I have an Android phone and it is synched with Gmail). Open HUS on your phone browser. Copy the contents of the e-mail from your phone e-mail app and then simply paste it into the HUS site open on your browser. To the observer from a distance, it just looks like you are typing a work e-mail, and the cutting and pasting from the e-mail to the site takes 5 seconds.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Idk. Most of the MRAs I’ve encountered online sound as crazy as your average feminist. The only MRA I know of who’s intelligent, likable, and pleasant is Byron. And the only feminist I know of who’s intelligent, likable, and pleasant is Ozy.

  • Höllenhund

    @JM

    “MGTOW are basically guys who are soured on the fact that women don’t really want them to begin with.”

    No. MGTOW are normally older men from highly feminized societies who decided they finally had enough of the BS emanating from the media and women’s mouths. They’re probably also above-average in terms of intelligence because they’re capable of rejecting feminist cultural programming.

    “I don’t think they’re forcing anything. I don’t think there are many women losing sleep over MGTOW.”

    Well, they didn’t go their own way in order to force anything or make women lose sleep over anything, did they? Because they don’t give a damn. They went their own way to benefit themselves and preserve their intellectual and psychological well-being, to live as free men with dignity. By the way, women do lose sleep over men going their own way (i.e. men rejecting the roles society wants to shove unto them) as long as attractive men are doing it. Famous bachelors are good examples.

  • Höllenhund

    @JM

    “I wouldn’t necessarily call women’s stuff “BS” though.”

    Whenever a woman interacts with men, most of what she says and does is just that, BS: nagging, shit-testing, friendzoning, creating drama etc.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      Whenever a woman interacts with men, most of what she says and does is just that, BS: nagging, shit-testing, friendzoning, creating drama etc.

      That’s strike one.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Höllenhund,

    I don’t think there’s a contradiction, really.

    Not a contradiction, but not a causality either?

    Only patriarchies practising lifelong monogamy are capable of that.

    See. Christianity = lifelong monogamy. So the monogamy arrangement will be ever present in our side of the world. But other societies operating under other religions and social arrangements have amassed wealth (by doing conquest, exploitation of resources, slavery, business, war, etc. classic stuff)

    I fail to see how monogamy has been the sauce that made all of that possible?

    Or are you saying that monogamy is the key ingredient for OUR western society wealth amassing process?

    Really trying to figure out the link.

  • Höllenhund

    @JM

    “Most of the MRAs I’ve encountered online sound as crazy as your average feminist”

    False parallel. I suggest you read this post:

    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/03/08/triangulation/

    Moreover, MRAs don’t advocate the mass victimization and extermination of the opposite sex, like many high-level feminists do:

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/radfem-hub-the-underbelly-of-a-hate-movement/

    In short, there’s no equivalence.

  • Höllenhund

    @JM

    “But I think it’s true that the whole MGTOW points to something very wrong in our society.”

    I’d say the opposite is true. I’d be concerned if men were NOT going their own way in the West and were swallowing feminist lies and pushing themselves into the meat grinder instead.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hollen,

    Whenever a woman interacts with men, most of what she says and does is just that, BS: nagging, shit-testing, friendzoning, creating drama etc.

    Wow, you must know some wicked chicks, bro. Hang out with a better crowd.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hollen,

    I’d say the opposite is true. I’d be concerned if men were NOT going their own way in the West and were swallowing feminist lies and pushing themselves into the meat grinder instead.

    That’s nice. Thanks for voicing your concerns.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    By the way, women do lose sleep over men going their own way (i.e. men rejecting the roles society wants to shove unto them) as long as attractive men are doing it. Famous bachelors are good examples.

    Sorry, bro. I don’t know of any women who lose sleep over famous bachelors. Like I said, you need to associate with a better crowd.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    @JM

    “Most of the MRAs I’ve encountered online sound as crazy as your average feminist”

    False parallel.

    And yet, you’re here acting crazy as a feminist. Hm.

  • Höllenhund

    @Yohami

    “Not a contradiction, but not a causality either?”

    What I meant is that there’s no contradiction between enforced lifelong monogamy on one side and exploitation, slavery, extraction of resources etc. on the other.

    “Christianity = lifelong monogamy.”

    Not only Christianity but also Islam, for example (although polygyny for the top-level men is allowed, although tightly regulated).

    “But other societies operating under other religions and social arrangements have amassed wealth”

    Not if they weren’t patriarchies enforcing monogamy. In that case, their biggest technological achievement was the grass hut.

  • jess

    Tom,
    In previous posts I have mentioned how I have I spoken to guys about potential LTRs and ”numbers’ and how most guys don’t think its a big deal.

    And people here have said that the guys were lying to me, or that they were unrepresentative or such ‘small scale surveys’ were meaningless and that only official surveys were allowable to inform discussion etc.

    You would had thought your survey would have been welcomed therefore !!- alas evidence that detracts from the mantra is seemingly unwelcome- its a bit inconvenient you see- spoils the maxims.

    But anyhoooo- no matter- don’t forget the lurkers will have noticed it…..

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess

      But anyhoooo- no matter- don’t forget the lurkers will have noticed it…..

      I’d like to disabuse you of the notion that you’re having an impact on lurkers. In more than three years of blogging I have never heard one reader mention your comments as anything but poorly reasoned and annoying. If you’re looking to convert lurkers, you’re wasting your time.

  • Ted D

    “Whenever a woman interacts with men, most of what she says and does is just that, BS: nagging, shit-testing, friendzoning, creating drama etc.”

    Man, I generally dislike idle chit chat regardless of who its from. And I will even admit that general chit chat with women in my experience is at best a way to waste some time, but I can’t say I agree with the statement above. If that is honestly your experience talking to women, then you should probably find some new places to interact with them.

    I would never in a million years waste a second on a serious relationship if this was the type of communication I would have with my mate. We may not talk about rocket science every day, but we have very meaningful conversations every day. Even if they are short, we have them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      nagging, shit-testing, friendzoning, creating drama etc.”

      With the exception of friendzoning, this is how I would describe Hollenhund’s online demeanor.

  • Höllenhund

    Discussing something in good faith, without resorting to ad hominem arguments, is a two-way street, JM. It’s obvious you aren’t willing to do your part.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Höllenhund,

    Not if they weren’t patriarchies enforcing monogamy. In that case, their biggest technological achievement was the grass hut.

    Not. true. at. all.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hollen,

    That’s true. You go ad hominem on women. I go ad hominem on you. I’m not willing to have a good faith discussion with someone whose views I think are insane and unhealthy.

  • Ted D

    “You would had thought your survey would have been welcomed therefore !!- alas evidence that detracts from the mantra is seemingly unwelcome- its a bit inconvenient you see- spoils the maxims.”

    Sorry Jess, a survey from Askmen with such a small sample size is just about irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

    And again, maybe it is an age thing. I can honestly say that I would understand it from young guys. Lets face it, they chances they will find and marry a woman with a partner count less than 5 in the modern western world are so freaking slim that if they don’t accept a slut, they may not have anyone left to choose from.

    THAT is exactly what my concern for my son is. That when he is ready for marriage, all that he will be able to find are formerly (or currently) promiscuous women unless he selects from the highly religious or the emotionally damaged piles. Maybe he will be fine with it, maybe not. I know I am not fine with it.

  • Höllenhund

    Ted,

    ALL women engage in the stuff I mentioned, although to different degrees, as long as they’re interacting with a man they’re interested in or reacting to a man that is interested in them (sexually and relationship-wise, that is). Look up ‘bullsh*t’ in a dictionary. It basically means ‘nonsense intended to deceive’. That’s exactly what friendzoning, shit-testing etc. are about. One reason why men-only organizations and places used to exist was that men wanted to be free from having to deal with all that from time to time.

  • Höllenhund

    @JM

    “You go ad hominem on women.”

    I’m not sure you’re aware of the definition of ad hominem, but anyway: show me where I’ve gone “ad hominem on women” and tell me why you think it’s an ad hominem argument.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Friendzoning is nonsense intended to deceive?

    I could see the argument that shit tests are BS, but not really deceptive. Shit tests are ways that some women test a man’s character. I’m not saying it’s a mature strategy, but I don’t think it’s deceptive.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    You said that basically everything they say is bullshit. That’s pretty much impugning their character.

  • Höllenhund

    @JM

    “Friendzoning is nonsense intended to deceive?”

    Yes, because she doesn’t mean what she says.

    “Shit tests are ways that some women test a man’s character. I’m not saying it’s a mature strategy, but I don’t think it’s deceptive”

    Of course it’s deceptive. She’s giving the impression that she wants you to give in to her demands (say what she supposedly wants to hear etc.) whereas what she actually wants you to do is to pass the shit test by standing your ground and not giving in.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Nah, bro. I don’t think that women even really know what they want when they give shit tests.

    And with friendzoning, she does mean what she says. You’re just not getting it. (Double entendre intended.)

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Hollenhund, what is your story? Tell us about yourself, and why you became sympathetic to the MRA movement.

  • Ted D

    “Look up ‘bullsh*t’ in a dictionary. It basically means ‘nonsense intended to deceive’. That’s exactly what friendzoning, shit-testing etc. are about. ”

    Oh I get what you are saying. My reply is that if the majority of your communications with women are as you describe, then you need to find different women. Yes, I know all women do this stuff to an extent. But if that is all you get from a woman, she is NO good. And again, I think you are implying that women do this stuff ON PURPOSE (that is to deceive) and the more I read up on human sexuality the more I believe that most of this stuff is unconscious. So saying that they are deceiving men is misleading. Is it right? No, and women should learn about themselves enough to correct some of these behaviors, but I truly think you are putting malice where none exists.

  • Höllenhund

    @Yohami

    “Not. true. at. all.”

    Can you provide any counterexample?

  • Ted D

    And I’d like to add there are plenty of places to find malice from women towards men. Look for any woman that “took her ex-husband to the cleaners” and you’re on the right track…

  • Stingray

    Of course it’s deceptive.

    Definition of de·cep·tive/diˈseptiv/
    Adjective:
    Giving an appearance or impression different from the true one; misleading.

    This makes it sound like women are doing this consciously. Maybe a small majority are. But when women shit test it is not something they do consciously. That still does not make it right, but it is not nearly as bad as someone who consciously tries to deceive.

  • Escoffier

    Jesus: Brendan (Novaseeker) seems like a decent guy, reasonable, interesting, not bitter. Dalrock is mostly OK too but is prone to more intellectual BS (Brendan I would say really is free of that).

  • Ted D

    Hollenhund (how do you get the two dots over the O?)

    Not too long ago I would have agreed with you 100% (well maybe 90%). Somewhere after taking the red pill, I went through a phase where I literally blamed women for being, well, women. I was angry and hurt that all of this stuff was going on under the surface, and I was plodding along clueless while my marriage turned to shit. But after I got past that phase, I realized being angry with women for shit-testing and hypergamy is about as stupid as getting angry at men for popping a woody when they see a naked woman!

    It is in woman’s nature to do these things. The best that can occur is that they learn about their nature, and then learn to curb it or at least be consciously aware of it.

    I don’t see that as deception. It is more like simply not knowing yourself.

  • Chris_in_CA

    Hope, I’m curious about something. Obviously Hollenhund can defend his own points. Your comment simply made me think.

    Why does he need to explain his “sympathy for the MRA movement”?

    This framing makes men’s rights advocacy seem like some bad choice he’s made. Some point at which he went astray.

    What if I were to say to an ardent feminist, “So, tell me about yourself, and why you became sympathetic to the feminist movement.”

    How well do you think presuming SHE’S made a bad choice – to her face – would go over with her?

  • Tasmin

    @Munson
    No, neither of us were attorneys, though we both could have gone that route just the same. I was in private equity, she in trade finance. We were one of those power couples, which kinda nauseates me to even write. Of course, I never really saw it that way – the power thing was more of her cup of tea. Though I did enjoy the overlap of our professions, the intellectual bond that we shared and the ability to fully relate/understand the demands of our jobs.

    @Babydoll
    Thanks. My story is unfortunately anything but unique. Sad indeed, but compared to what most people out there in the world must endure on any given day, my situation was not so bad. Of course, at the time I felt otherwise, but we heal and learn and go on.

    @Susan
    I hope that your EPL post does attract some attention. I value what you are doing here at HUS, even if I am not the target audience. I’m not big on the manosphere or whatever – too much anger, resentment, and game nonsense to sort through, so I come here. Some days I am inspired, other days I sink back into a bit of a defeatist belief that it is too late for me, that the ‘market’ is moving against what I value and believe so quickly that I either have to change my stripes and join the madness or press into the void hoping to find my community, what feels like the illusive 1%.

    While my situation was a horrible betrayal of commitment, I am no victim. I know that my ex did me no favors, but I take full responsibility for my action (or inaction) both in terms of my investment in the relationship as well as my investment in my own happiness and satisfaction. That knowledge is the gift that came from my experience.

    The worst part is not in the actual betrayal, not in how she unilaterally chose to lay waste to a decade of life together; it is what that experience did to my beliefs, my ability to trust, to take risk, and to value myself as a partner going forward. Those are the things I carry now: the battle fatigue, the scars that tear open too easily, the cynicism that comes from knowing the darkness that lurks, the creases in my armor that open with my every move, reminding me of those soft, vulnerable places beneath. Those places that must be shared in order to love, but where a well placed blade would run through, spilling my essence to the ground again. And I find myself in a new world where swords are plentiful and men are commoditized, ground and bound to feed the insatiable appetite of the modern woman’s happiness. Did I mention cynism? ;-)

    Yes, I left the business. My heart was never in it, but I was under the spell that men must provide, work hard, make money, acquire status, protect family at all costs – even if the cost is my own happiness. My ex and I grew up quite poor and I elected myself to the position of family provider. I was to be the safety net for all. Bad strategy. I still believe those things, but with perspective and relativism now.

    But this is also why I have resentment that I must confront. Sure I was compensated financially, but there is the fact that men’s “choice” when it comes to work/profession and what they sacrifice along the way, look nothing like those of women’s. Because it is not the same kind of choice, it is an expectation. Stories of a man leaving the cubicle farm to find himself are received quite differently than the EPL’s of the world. And I would bet the stories of men who leave their wives to go surfing and banging through Chile, as scarce as they are, would not be so celebrated. Men’s happiness is of little concern if it falls outside of the ‘traditional’ role of husband, provider, father.

    I see this play out in many ways when I meet women my age (mid-late 30′s). So many have played their way through their 20′s. Travel, graduate school, flings and vacations or partnerships and promotions, but NOW they want a husband and children. And if men are not there to greet them with stability, status, and a 6’1″ handsome smile, we are peter pan, immature, selfish.

    Same goes for men who chose NOT to sit in a cube farm, who decide to live on less income and have more free time, pursue hobbies or other interests. That path is ‘wrong’, irresponsible, or MGTOW. And I see first-hand how the status challenge plays out in the SMP as well. I don’t get into my past immediately with women, skipping over grad school and my old work. No lies, just keep it in the present tense. I go with what I am now, which is ‘respectable’ but not profitable, and I can see in their eyes the disappointment.

    In one sense it is good, as it filters out those who have prioritized income and status accordingly, but it is also a bit disappointing because the problem is that there are a lot of women who have careers with little earning power that won’t accept that in a partner. I guess the point goes to the old risk-reward situation, our risks have been increasing greatly, while our rewards have at-best remained the same (though many would argue have declined as well.)

    ELP is not a story of soul-searching self-discovery, it is an example of why men, even those who sacrifice and work to build status, security, professions, can no longer rely on those ‘traditional’ accomplishments to provide them with any added security within marriage. Being a “good provider” or a “good husband” is no longer enough. What is enough? Well, that is the problem.

    The real damage (and threat to society) from the EPL view is not coming in the form of men shying away from marriage but from men shying away from those ‘traditional’ accomplishments in the first place. Or at least changing their programming significantly. The self-employed, 20-something nomadic male with a three-roommate crash-pad, well-stamped passport, and insatiable wanderlust is coming. Good luck wrangling those guys into marriage.

  • Ted D

    “Why does he need to explain his “sympathy for the MRA movement”?”

    I may be wrong, but I think Hope is looking to see why Hollenhund seems to hate women so much. I could be wrong though…

  • Höllenhund

    @JM

    “I don’t think that women even really know what they want when they give shit tests.”

    Doesn’t really matter. Delivered consciously or subconsciously, a shit test is still nonsense intended to deceive.

    “And with friendzoning, she does mean what she says.”

    LOL. Yeah, because she actually wants to have a genuine friendship with you. Sure.

  • Chris_in_CA

    Oh, entirely possible, Ted D. Hope is quite reasonable.

    I’m merely drawing attention to the phrasing. Perhaps unconscious, but it conjures up an image of a feminist looking down her nose at the lowly MRA.

    Something of a subconscious framing, emblematic of our current social mores. Considering such underlying beliefs may well help shake people out of the situation we find ourselves in.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      it conjures up an image of a feminist looking down her nose at the lowly MRA.

      For me it conjures up an image of a gracious and empathic woman trying to understand the source of such blatant hostility.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ted D is on target.

    Everyone is fighting his or her own battle. I am just about the background story. Not only is it interesting, but it gives me better understanding.

    I would also ask the same of a feminist who seems to hate men, or a neo-Nazi who seems to hate minorities, or anyone who feels strong negativity toward something.

    Chalk it up to my own desire to work through negativity.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Höllenhund,

    Can you provide any counterexample?

    Sure, but first, you´re changing the subject to “technical development” which is different than “amassing wealth”, though, not the same even if they are related. If the subject was “monogamy produces technical development” I would still question it. For the same reasons.

    Im BY NO MEANS an expert on this subject, but this is what comes up after 10 min of googling. For cultures / religions that didnt enforce lifelong monogamy, and filtering cultures that amassed wealth over such period of time:

    - Chinese Empire – Polygyny / Polyandry (until communism)
    - Mayan Empire – Polygamy
    - India – Bigamy / Henogamy / Polyandry
    - Sumerians – Polyandry
    - Rome – Polyandry / Polygamy / Polyginy (before christianity)

    Christianity took over Rome, and Rome then enforced monogamy on their empire… but how did the romans took it themselves? from the web:

    Romans were known as advocates of celibacy and monogamy, but practitioners of drunken orgies, state sponsored brothels, and other sexually promiscuous practices.

    Hardly lifelong monogamy. uh.

    Then, our western society has produced a lot of technical development and along with the wars and banking… it is (or was) making a killing. But it is also plagued with divorce, serial monogamy, cheating, etc.

    Even in current times, in pretty much every culture, the higher status men operate in Polygyny, overtly, or covertly in the form of mistresses / cheating.

    So, lifelong monogamy… how does that exactly equals amassing wealth? what is the link between the two?

    I found this amusing btw, only the chinese could come up with this:

    Chinese ghost marriage/Spirit marriage – A marriage where one or both parties are deceased.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_marriages

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Chris_in_CA, interesting that you say that. Perhaps it is your frame of thinking that led you to interpret my statements that way. My own motive, when I was phrasing the question, was try to be as inoffensive as possible, and use the word “sympathy” to denote my own sympathy to men. That, apparently, was a major fail, at least for the intended audience.

    So, what’s YOUR story?

  • Stingray

    intended to deceive.

    If is it unconscious how can there be intent? Look, shit test suck. They truly do. But there is not intent to deceive. They are what they are and they will only stop if she is introspective enough to figure it out or if the man she is with doesn’t put up with it.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Keep in mind that I’m talking about mandatory assortative mating, which frustrates female hypergamy. So yeah, married sex probably normally wasn’t that fantastic for the wife.

    That sounds kinda off…. I consider myself to be in an “assortatively mated” relationship (as in, by standard attractiveness measures, my boyfriend is not more attractive than me, we probably both fall in the 5-6 range. Though I consistently overrate guys I find attractive, so I don’t even know if that’s right). Sex is… really good. So I don’t feel like assortative mating ever has to be a problem for women’s sex lives.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Hope

    I’ve left several comments here at HUS with details about me. Happy to give more, if so desired.

    I consider myself more of an MGTOW than an MRA. But I’ve seen what havoc the law and current social norms have wreaked in men’s lives the past 15 years. False accusations, assaults, very bad divorces (at least 2 of which were “EPL Divorces”).

    It makes me angry. Less for myself than for my friends & family though. I’m no longer invested in seeking a relationship – or in giving my all to a society that does not recognize my value as a man.

  • Ted D

    “Yes, I left the business. My heart was never in it, but I was under the spell that men must provide, work hard, make money, acquire status, protect family at all costs – even if the cost is my own happiness. My ex and I grew up quite poor and I elected myself to the position of family provider. I was to be the safety net for all. Bad strategy. I still believe those things, but with perspective and relativism now.”

    Tasmin, you are a great writer! I love reading your posts.

    I’m with you here. I still feel like my role and mostly sole purpose in life (for now at least) is to provide income and security for my family. I intend to stick to that role at least until my youngest child is an adult and on his own, and then I will look for a new purpose. To be honest, I’ve wanted to change careers for years, but can’t do it in good conscience while my family depends on me for income. Once my responsibility to them is fulfilled though, all bets are off.

    Other than putting others before myself, do you know what is sad about that? The only thing I asked for in return was my wife’s love, devotion, and respect, and that was too high a price for her to pay. I walked away from a chance at doing what I loved to increase my income so my family could live better, but that sacrifice, in the end, went unappreciated.

    I think its too late for me to change my stripes. I am what I am, and for the most part I’m happy with it. But, I am trying to encourage my children to do things for themselves, tempered with some common sense. I don’t want my son to choose a career based on how much money he can make for his future wife and children. I did, and I don’t regret it, but it wasn’t really the right choice for me. The problem is, growing up I was never told I had much of a choice.

  • Tasmin

    From Gilbert’s website, a section from her BIO:

    “After college, she spent several years traveling around the country, working in bars, diners and ranches, collecting experiences to transform into fiction. These explorations eventually formed the basis of her first book – a short story collection called PILGRIMS, which was a finalist for the PEN/Hemingway award. During these early years in New York, she also worked as a journalist for such publications as Spin, GQ and The New York Times Magazine. She was a three-time finalist for The National Magazine work, and an article she wrote in GQ about her experiences bartending on the Lower East Side eventually became the basis for the movie COYOTE UGLY.”

    How many women would find it to be attractive, acceptable, responsible, mature if a man was “[spending] several years traveling around the country, working in bars, diners and ranches, collecting experiences to transform into fiction.” ? How about bartending on the lower east side?

    After reading her BIO, her EPL motivation and experience seems to be more consistent than inconsistent.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      After reading her BIO, her EPL motivation and experience seems to be more consistent than inconsistent.

      I wonder how she claimed the role of primary breadwinner? I think her books before EPL sold few copies. Yet she says they owned a gorgeous home in the Hudson Valley, plus a Manhattan apartment. Sounds like there must have been inherited money somewhere. In which case her claim, as evidence that her husband was not up to par, is totally unfair.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Höllenhund,
    I want to ask you something else too. Your argument, it seems, is that enforced patriarchy –>monogamy–>men working their asses off to provide–> civilization. The hidden message in this progression, unless I’m completely mistaken, is that women were only good for having sex with the husbands and reproducing/caring for children. But that’s, like, a ginormous job. If women are raising the children while men are working, they are responsible for the well-being of the next generation. That’s a huge weight on their shoulders. Maybe you agree with this point and I’m just not reading your posts thoroughly or clearly.

  • Doc

    [The ten reasons why men won’t commit are:]

    Let me sum it up – a Cost-Benefit Analysis shows that it’s just not worth it.

    Every man lives by rational thought, there is a reason for everything we do. So after weighing all of the benefits against the costs – or potential costs – it’s just not worth it.

    All of the “reasons” given above factor into the “why”, as well as a plethora of others – but in the end, it’s just not worth it…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      All of the “reasons” given above factor into the “why”, as well as a plethora of others – but in the end, it’s just not worth it…

      And yet many men do marry, and most college males express the desire to marry.

  • Orig.Anon.

    That there aren’t more “male supremacists” can only be due to three things: male stupidity, actual female supremacy, or male ignorance. Personally, I hope for a shorter period of “meninism” than the last 100 years of feminism, but not because women deserve it. Just stupidity on my part. Any male apologies for MRA’s are failed shit tests.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That there aren’t more “male supremacists” can only be due to three things: male stupidity, actual female supremacy, or male ignorance.

      So you are proud to call yourself a male supremacist?

  • Orig.Anon.

    Susan, “enforce it yourself” is another name for lawless vigilante. There is no enforcement of something that the law will, backed by guns, forbids. The law says women get what they want.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, “enforce it yourself” is another name for lawless vigilante.

      No it’s not. I’m simply saying that two people may vow an oath to one another, and if one violates it, the oath is null and void, and the betrayal will have consequences. In this case, the consequence may well be that the betrayed partner no longer wishes to remain in the relationship.

      None of this has anything to do with the realities of divorce law. The question is whether a person who has been cheated on behaves frivolously if they decide to leave the relationship. I say no.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Chris,

    I’m no longer invested in seeking a relationship – or in giving my all to a society that does not recognize my value as a man.

    With all due respect, you have to take responsibility for yourself regardless of societal pressures.

    This is slightly unrelated, but still relevant I think. At my current internship I help people apply for medical assistance (medicaid) for their children. It’s a long, miserable, laborious process, and sometimes it takes months before you have all the papers in and your caseworker approves the benefits. I hear the attitude sometimes: “They just don’t want us to have benefits, they do everything they can to make us suffer…” That might be true, but it shouldn’t stop people from wanting their children to have adequate healthcare. If you stick with it til the bitter end, you’ll get the benefits.

    It’s similar in the SMP. I get that it sucks, that the system doesn’t value you as a man. But that just means you have to find your manliness by yourself, and the non-feminist ladies will definitely appreciate that. I had this discussion with Leapofabeta on his blog the other week; realizing that you have sole responsibility for your own future is liberating. It means you’re not a slave to the system. If a relationship with a woman who values you is really what you want, deep down, then go for it. If that’s not what you want, then by all means, GYOW. But if you decide that the MGTOW movement is for you, that’s your decision, it’s not society’s decision.

  • tvmunson

    @ Anna #731 agree; responsible use of credit no prob. My remark was to BD and letting her know which post I meant, which was one hse directed to you.

    @ Or. An # 738
    “Society treats the wedding vows lie a contract to become a slave or whore or some other deviant, reprehensible promise.”
    Not when I took contract/domestic relations law. But it was a while ago.

    Two words for you : vas ectomy.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Babydoll
    “What time is it now in California? It’s just past 5.30pm here and I’ve finally caught up with all the comments.”

    I think you’re about 18 hours ahead of me. I nodded off around 11:30 last night.

    Methinks we’re about the same age. The year I was born, “Annie Hall” won best picture (overrated). But I hope you do find someone special to settle down with. I don’t know how it is down under, but here in CA my single female friends over 30 are having a hell of a time making it work. The way things have been going, there seems to be only a 50-50 chance that the guys they meet/date even want to commit. The pool shrinks tremendously after a certain age, before the question of compatibility can even be considered.

    For that matter, my single guy friends aren’t having much luck either. And they’re the honest ones, not these so-called “asshole imposters” I’ve been hearing about.

  • Orig.Anon.

    Who cares about blame? Moral victory while you take it up the tail pipe? I like victory much better.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Who cares about blame? Moral victory while you take it up the tail pipe? I like victory much better.

      I don’t know what this means.

      Are you saying that you do not consider adultery a valid reason to divorce?

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Babydoll

    P.S. One of my favorite films is “Picnic at Hanging Rock” (Peter Weir, 1975). I saw it when I was older. Creeped me out, which is hard to do.

  • Orig.Anon.

    @Mun # 802:
    ““Society treats the wedding vows li[k]e a contract to become a slave or whore or some other deviant, reprehensible promise.”
    Not when I took contract/domestic relations law. But it was a while ago.”

    I thought you were impressing everyone with your mad, legal skills, bro?

    Prenups:
    Til death? not enforcible
    Love? not enforcible
    Honor? not enforcible
    Child custody? not enforcible
    Monogamy? not enforcible

    You take the state’s deal, period. Wedding vows are not binding, BECAUSE society has said so.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Wedding vows are not binding,

      Mine are. I will not violate them. If I do, I will not blame my husband for leaving me. Legality is not the only way one person may be bound to another.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Olive

    “With all due respect, you have to take responsibility for yourself regardless of societal pressures.”

    I did. I see to my own improvement, thanks.

    “But that just means you have to find your manliness by yourself, and the non-feminist ladies will definitely appreciate that.”

    Again, I did. My energies are devoted more toward my own pursuits (research, writing, technology) than working 60 hours a week. My days and my money go to my interests, and people I care about. Going to spend time with some friends this weekend in fact (and *gasp* two are female!).

    In the past I’ve mentioned that I would enjoy a relationship. However, I’m not investing in the process. Completely tired of trying and being burned over & over. (And before you ask, yes, I’m reading up on Game. Mostly for my own edification.) I leave the future to itself, and enjoy getting there.

    There’s also the legal dangers I face in relationships. Some of them have been indicated in this discussion already. Those I am very well aware of…and they scare me.

    “But if you decide that the MGTOW movement is for you, that’s your decision, it’s not society’s decision.”

    This characterization appears to portray me as some petulant child stomping his feet. I find that amusing. Must thank you for the laugh (and no, I mean no disrespect in that statement).

  • Höllenhund

    “With the exception of friendzoning, this is how I would describe Hollenhund’s online demeanor.”

    Show a single comment of mine where I nag/shit-test/create drama.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      We’ve already gone over your persistent nagging.

      I consider it a shit test when you say, “I’ve asked you before, please do not compare feminists to MGTOW.” As if I am subservient to you and must obey your wishes. It’s not a female shit test, it’s a show of dominance, but close enough.

      Creating drama is making blatant statements about all women behaving in a certain way.

  • poester99

    @Jonny
    As for “Watch what you say”, what are you going to do?

    Write a more strongly worded post, which will reduce you to quivering jello.
    Or not.

  • Tom

    Jess

    That was my point, ofcourse. Seems this site is loaded with a lot of like minded bitter men who cant see the forest for the trees. They are hell bent on convincing themselves and others that all males think like they do. Or, that they are the enlightened ones who see the evil in unchaste women (and men)

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Chris,
    Glad to hear you’ll be chilling with the ladies. :-) As for legal fears in a relationship… which legal fears do you mean? I know about the stuff associated with marriage, but relationships?

    But if you decide that the MGTOW movement is for you, that’s your decision, it’s not society’s decision.

    This characterization appears to portray me as some petulant child stomping his feet. I find that amusing. Must thank you for the laugh (and no, I mean no disrespect in that statement).

    LOL nah I didn’t mean for it to sound that way. Apologies that it did.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Olive

    Both are taken, so don’t get any ideas over there.

    This discussion is about the phenomenon termed “EPL Divorce.” A break in the marriage wherein the woman runs off to “find herself” or some such selfish nonsense. The man is left flat-footed, bewildered, often financially gutted, maybe bereft of his own children…and very disinterested in being put through the ringer again.

    Is it so much of a stretch to imagine that this sort of thing happens in relationships without marriage, as well?

    Infidelity, risk to financial resources, drug use, lack of communication…none of these are dependent on a couple being married first.

    And they still convey a serious risk to men. Let me list off a few things that have happened, both to myself and to those I know, who were in relationships with women:
    –Theft of money.
    –Breaking of leases on shared apartments.
    –False accusations (one of which had me picking up a friend from jail).
    –Cheating.
    –Police being called when woman confronted with proof of her cheating.
    –VAWA.

    Susan’s original post gives great detail on why men are more reluctant to marry than ever. As I pointed out in my original comment, the social reasons are well-covered, legal reasons less so. I hope this helps to clarify a little.

    I’d put more detail down, but I’m not sure if I’d derail the discussion by doing so (and I have to leave shortly).

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Chris_in_CA, I missed those comments. If you want to do a condensed summary, that’d be cool.

    I know other guys who have done their version of dropping out or going their own way. I have a coworker who is a good guy, single and recently said he was not going back to dating. My husband also wasn’t on dating sites or looking for any woman when we met.

    So I am not trying to judge, just trying to understand. It may well be that smart guys have done a cost-to-benefit analysis and decided that it’s not worth it unless the women start bringing way more to the table.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Hope

    I’ve not the time to reiterate my past now. Perhaps later, discussion permitting. Suffice for now that I was an invisible beta from 16 to 29. I worked and improved. I observed the SMP and our society at large. And…

    “It may well be that smart guys have done a cost-to-benefit analysis and decided that it’s not worth it unless the women start bringing way more to the table.”

    …I made the same astute assessment.

  • Babydoll

    Ted D #657

    “So yes, I believe that a person can make a 180 in life and stick to it. I also believe that those people are a much bigger risk in terms of long lasting security in a relationship.”

    +1

    Thanks Ted D for putting so clearly into words what I was trying to say :) I too have done a 180 in terms of my personal spending, in particular credit cards and I do have to be vigilant. I can’t even allow myself to have a credit card in case I start abusing it again. I think I am a risk to take on in a relationship in this respect. Keep me away from those handbags and shoes!

  • Tasmin

    @TedD
    Thanks Ted!
    “I walked away from a chance at doing what I loved to increase my income so my family could live better, but that sacrifice, in the end, went unappreciated.”
    I did the same thing. Twice. Had a chance to go to college for fine arts. And a contract to play a sport. While my parents were supportive, they didn’t have the $ to help me either way. Based on my own awareness of pending financial expectations/responsibilities, my pragmatic view of school costs vs future income, and the background noise of “society” showing me, telling me what men are “supposed” to do, I just couldn’t see myself painting or playing my (and my family’s) way into financial security.

    “I don’t want my son to choose a career based on how much money he can make for his future wife and children. I did, and I don’t regret it, but it wasn’t really the right choice for me. The problem is, growing up I was never told I had much of a choice.”

    I agree 100%. My dad never told me I needed to make money, but then he didn’t have to. I lived it growing up. And I agree that choice was not something that was really reinforced. My parents were happy that I chose to go to university, but that was expected. Even coming out of school I felt the pressure to provide security. Choices, that is options, were going to be a result of that security, not in lieu of. I now know that I took on more responsibility than I should have, but then I too had the view/hope that I would get in, make $, then get out some day. That is part of the “bad strategy” – and where I think you are right on with your advice to your son.

    It important that we honor our own passions as much as we can in light of the realities/responsibilities, but I also believe that the “value” in pursuing the path of reality/responsibility is going down relative to the role it plays in marriage. And since the costs/risks of that path are many, and the rewards (security of marriage being no small part) are waning, it makes sense to adjust accordingly. In other words: invest more in yourself, develop and trust your ability to adapt and thrive, but do not expect those investments to procure, sustain, or protect a marriage.

    I don’t regret my decisions either, but I do feel that because there are these expectations and because men have always largely gone that way (subordinating their happiness, options, etc. for others) that the underlying price, the sacrifices required of men to perform the regular course of business, are hidden, discounted, or ignored. I would have loved to travel, screw around, go to europe and paint and drink and hump french girls. But I had bills to pay, present AND FUTURE. And like you, all I wanted from my partner was love, devotion, and respect. Unfortunately those things were conditional and the conditions were dynamic. I could not un-become the image that she desired without forever losing that respect, love, and devotion in lockstep.

    So now I make very little money. But I paint when I want. I help people and connect with my community as best I can. And while I still have my internal struggle with how to reconcile my ability to provide, create security, and plan for the future with the things that fulfill me, inspire me, and engage in the world. I no longer care what is expected of me. I no longer listen to anything but my own heart. I have zero time for those who cannot see the greatness, the potential, the love in others for what it is and not for what it can do for them. Or those who take and leverage and control for their own design, blind to the fact that love/life is about giving, not taking but accepting. For the people who know and live this, I am open and willing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So now I make very little money. But I paint when I want.

      Maybe I’m unusual, but for me Private Equity ——–> Painter is just a major SMV boost. I hope you find a woman who shares your values, Tasmin.

  • tvmunson

    OA #807

    My legal skills are not mad, but considered. You were talking prenups- guess I missed that. Yeah child custody would not be something you could put in a prenup-because the “best interest of the child” would trump it. To the extent it was consistent with and harmonius to the court’s considered opinion, it might be followed-or not.
    How would it ever be possible to “force” (“enforce” implies use of some type of force) someone to live, honor , and obey you? Can love be coerced? Would you want to force someone to stay with you ” ’til death” if they hated you and made your life miseable any way they could? Monogamy-well in the Middle Ages the forced women to wear chastity belts. Reminds me of a joke.

    King Arthur was off to a war. Suspicious of Lady Guinevere, he had a chastity belt placed on her that had a guillotine device on it. Off he went. Upon his return, still suspicious, he ahd all the noble men rounded up for inspection. He had them drop trou, and each had an unmistakable scar showing his attempt at, if not consummated, infidelity. All except Sir Lancelot.
    “Lancelot my faithful lege ” the King exclaimed “you and you alone have remained loyal. For your reward you can have anything in my kingdom, anything. All you need do is name it.”

    But Lancelot remained speechless.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Mahoney,

    congratulations & good luck on the book thing, that’s really good news.

  • Babydoll

    @Jesus

    “storm AND vessel”

    That was very well put :)

  • Babydoll

    @J #666

    “It’s also why doctors’ kids tend to become artists more often than bricklayer’s kids. They have all the material things they need, so they focus on self-expression and enjoying their work.”

    True. I see this in my brothers and I. We have no material worries so we can focus on the things that bring us happiness: music, blogging, poetry and in the case of the only one of us who has decided to follow in dad’s footsteps, kickboxing. We are single too, and so are the vast majority of my equally well educated cousins. I had an interesting discussion with a few of the female ones over Xmas. We were all single but also had LTRs in the past. Why weren’t we married? We were in our late 20′s early 30′s, financially independent, one had just bought a house. The answer: what do we have to give up? What do we need to sacrifice for a man? If the net answer is negative, why bother? Then came the stories of women we knew who were married to men whose decisions negatively impacted on their wives and children. Like the one who one committed a criminal breach of trust due to gambling debts and ruined his career – he was a banker and can never work in a bank again. Or the one who relocated for work leaving his wife, she followed, got pregnant and he relocated again, again leaving her behind.

    Happiness? Yes I want it. Yes I believe I could have it with a man. But I am happy now and if he isn’t going to add to my happiness, why go there?

  • Babydoll

    @WarmWoman

    “It’s a shame how being single can be stigmatized, because it can be a great thing when you’re working on yourself and your happiness. Everything else will fall in place.”

    +1

  • Orig.Anon.

    Susan: If something is not enforceable, it is not binding. That you live up to your promise, doesn’t magically make it binding. Binding means you have to do it. That there is some external force that will make you do it.

    Child support is binding. Marriage vows are not. That should tell you something about how men should view marriage and kids.

    Vows are like a political party platform. Or “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness” in the Declaration. They are like a promise from your parent when you were 5 (you didn’t get to go to the park? Tough luck kid.).

    Divorce law means that women or men can be frivolous and the law makes women subjectively lose less. Women value their kids highly and they are highly likely to get them no matter how poorly they treat their husband.

    If my wife frivolously divorced me she’d get the kids. If I frivolously divorced her, she’d get the kids. The very fact is that, no matter who breaks the vow, she would “win.” So, if she frivolously divorced me, I’d have the moral, totally fucking worthless, victory of knowing I kept my vow.

  • jess

    “I’d like to disabuse you of the notion that you’re having an impact on lurkers. In more than three years of blogging I have never heard one reader mention your comments as anything but poorly reasoned and annoying.”

    well you say that Susan but by definition a lurker doesn’t comment surely?

    i wouldn’t know how many lurkers you have – but I do recall you saying that you have more lurkers than posters… and by a large margin.

    i was merely making the point that the survey mentioned by Tom somewhat casts doubt on the claims made by some male posters here that ‘most’ guys feel a certain way about ‘numbers’ and feminine ‘conduct’.

    Now Tom’s survey may not be as ‘esteemed’ as other studies perhaps but its certainly germane isn’t it? I rather think it would make a neutral lurker think again about buying some of the more extreme views around here (some views that you yourself have recently been fighting by the way).

    as for ‘not one person’ -well nearly every thread I have ever contributed to has either a poster directly agreeing with me or seconding my comments. Of course they are rarely the ‘regulars’ which, with respect, lets me know I’m on the straight and narrow.

  • Orig.Anon.

    “Susan Walsh January 12, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    That there aren’t more “male supremacists” can only be due to three things: male stupidity, actual female supremacy, or male ignorance.

    So you are proud to call yourself a male supremacist?”

    Where is there, in that list, anything implying that males are supreme? Men stupid? Men ignorant? Females supreme? If men weren’t stupid and ignorant there WOULD be a movement to correct the fundamental unfairness of modern society. Men are treated as defective women. Which, since we won’t fight (like women did) with a political movement, is obviously correct. Circular logic FTW.

  • Kathy

    JM: ” And with friendzoning, she does mean what she says. You’re just not getting it. (Double entendre intended.)”

    Indeed, Jesus, Hollenhund is just NOT getting it.. ;)

    Is it any wonder with all his shit testing and BS that he spouts about women.. Lol..

    Susan, you certainly have his number..

    “I consider it a shit test when you say, “I’ve asked you before, please do not compare feminists to MGTOW.” As if I am subservient to you and must obey your wishes. It’s not a female shit test, it’s a show of dominance, but close enough.

    Creating drama is making blatant statements about all women behaving in a certain way.”

    True, dat :D

  • tvmunson

    OA #830

    I cannot address everything you say, but I can this notion that your wife (and by implication all mothers) “get the kids”. First of all, in most jurisdictions, including Idaho where I am an attorney, parents are awarded “joint physical custody.” This allows either parent to obtain medical care, pick up kids from school. Actual physical custody i e where the kids spend Mon-Sun is problematic, esp. if the one of the parents doesn’t reside in the school district. But it usually works out. The court is available if the parties don’t agree.The goal is 50/50 although not always achievable. Child support is based on a formula calculating the couples’ income and the actual time they have the children and is gender neutral; if the wife makes more she’ll pay unless she likewise ahs th echildren a disproportionate share of the time. . If you want to make some polemical point fine; I have handled and been involved in divorce cases, and to the extent I understand your point it is on an empirical basis incorrect.

    The readership is by now aware that HUS attracts a certain mind set bent on impugning and attacking the domestic relations laws of the U.S. on the basis that they are unfair to men. I have never maintained it is perfect, nor that it cannot be improved, nor that it is incapable of doing certain injustices in the premises. But the notion that it is implacably stacked agaisnt the male is palpably false. Agree or disagree with me, I also feel the discerning emembers will note I have in good faith whenever possible to address in an explicative fashion specific bits of misinformation foisted here. It is my hope that in my continuing efforts to address the specific we will see fewer of these and the remarks will become vaguer and thus more easily ignored. I will allow the readership to draw the necessary conclusions as to whom I refer.

  • Orig.Anon.

    Mun at 823:

    I’m talking about the totally deceptive, inaccurate, and pointless blather that makes up a traditional wedding vow. Not a God Damn word of it is worth anything more than the character of the person who says it to you.

    Marriage and family law are stacked to favor women, then kids, and if there is anything left, men. “Wedding vow marriage” is totally in the power of your spouse to keep or break. Legal marriage is a shit sandwich for men and not remotely like the vow for women. Susan still wants to act like wedding vow marriage is binding. Society/shame/law are not enforcing it. No enforcement = non-binding.

    If a person marries, he/she is totally relying on his/her spouse. Unfortunately, this is showing vulnerability/weakness when women instinctively respect strength. I can’t help but think that marrying is failing a major shit test that requires active work to recover from. Cue Athol.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      . Susan still wants to act