I’m currently reading The Love of My Youth by Mary Gordon. As so often happens these days, I came across something I just have to share with you.
The book is about Adam and Miranda, college sweethearts now in their late 50s. They happen to be in Rome at the same time in 2007, and become reacquainted. Adam is a gifted pianist, and though his career hasn’t panned out as he’d hoped, he was a very serious student of music when they were together. The book contains flashbacks to their relationship, including this one from Miranda’s dorm room in 1967:
Adam and Miranda lie on the blanket; he is running his palms against the soft wool. She tells Adam she’s signed up for a course in music theory. He is rarely angry, but he looks angry now; a beautiful russet creeps up toward his brows and he says, “I don’t want you to do that,” and that, too is odd; he never asks her for anything, but she can ask him why because they love each other, nothing can hurt their love or weaken this bond, which she knows will go on unto death. So without fear she asks, “Why?” and he says, “I want you, when you listen, to listen to me playing. To listen to me, not the music. I need to know you love me as a man, not a musician.
Wow. That really struck me – Adam’s desire to be that special to the woman he loves. More important than the music itself. It echoes many of the comments that men have made here at HUS.
From Lokland yesterday:
The feeling when a woman is completely devoted to you emotionally and sexually is unbelievable. It’s like walking on a cloud 24/7.
I think when guys say they want “respect” that’s what they mean.
And this recent comment by Gabriel:
For men, Respect isn’t just a necessary element of the relationship – it’s a heady aphrodisiac.
In my experience, women don’t really care as much about the idea of Respect as men. It’s lower on their list of priorities. The idea of Respect is to men what the idea of Love is to women – it’s vital, valuable, elusive.
Respect him for his positive traits and victories – even if they’re small. If you expect Love from him, be prepared to deliver Respect. You’d be amazed how committed a man will become to you if you make him feel like he’s the hero.
I don’t think women fully understand how powerful this is – the ability to make a man feel heroic. Here are some other comments I can recall:
I want a woman who’s hard to get for everyone else, but easy to get for me. I want someone who prefers me over every other guy.
The biggest turnon for me during sex is when a woman worships my cock, like it’s the only one she ever wants inside her again. My ability to arouse her gets me off.
I don’t want a girl who acts flirty with other guys. I want a girl who’s totally focused on me, and acts indifferent when other guys give her attention.
When my girlfriend looks up to me, I want to be as good as she believes I am. That’s what guys mean when they say, “You make me a better man.”
I believe women have lost the sense of how powerful this is. In an era characterized by the Principle of Least Interest and heavily guarded hearts, we focus on not getting ahead of ourselves. Not putting our feelings out there out of fear that we’ll be rejected and made to feel foolish. That’s a loser’s game. So many of the success stories I’ve heard have depended on the persistence of one party, the willingness to put your pride on the line and say what you need to say.
When you like a guy, really, really like a guy, and you’ve established that he is worthy of your respect, go all in. Let him know. Tell him what you like about him. Not just big stuff, but little stuff.
- You like the dark hair on his wrist.
- You love to run your fingers over his collar bone after sex.
- The way his top teeth overlap just a bit drives you crazy.
- You found it hot when he roughhoused with his nephew.
- His competence at his work amazes you – he is so smart.
- His smell really gets you going.
- Feel protected in his arms.
- Feed him. Cook for him.
- Express appreciation for the money he has spent on you by treating him. An outing, a picnic, a surprise.
- Sew a button on his shirt (take that radfems!).
- Listen and be supportive when he’s stressed out. Give him a back rub.
- Make a nest. Be a refuge from the outside world.
- Change up the sex. Ask him to name something new he’d like to try.
- Whisper to him when you’re out with others that you cannot wait to get home to bang his brains out. (But do wait.)
This is just a start – there are thousands of ways to show a man desire and respect. If those don’t get the job done, nothing will. Worst case, you pick up your ball and go home. I’d rather do that than never even get in the game.
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“When my girlfriend looks up to me, I want to be as good as she believes I am. That’s what guys mean when they say, “You make me a better man.””
This is a big one for me. I never want a woman to harp or nag me to do better. (and in fact when I am pushed in this way I tend to purposely dig my heels in.) But, a woman that looks at me as if I *am* better already, makes me want to prove I am, which in turn actually makes me a better person.
That is exactly the kind of support I look for in a mate.
Its sounds nice but I’d never do all that for a guy who was running game on me like PUAs advice, all this push-pull bullshit and whatnot. I’ve only ever done those things for my husband, who completely adores me and isn’t afraid to let it show. In fact, I’d warn women not to go whole hog like this until your man adores you and only you.
*like* This is definitely difficult for me, because I tend to be emotionally closed off from people, especially men- Principle of Least Interest at work. Looking back, there was one boy I was friends with who I had a crush on (but didn’t realize it at the time), but our conversations basically consisted of teasing each other, or ‘witty banter,’ or however else you want to put it. Yikes.
Sue,
Very good points. Women complain about men not respecting them, but the question is…Do you respect and appreciate your man?
Women don’t realize that nagging, criticism, griping, rolling your eyes and not acknowleding acts of kindness can damage pieces of the relationship as time goes on.I’m not trying to sound anti-women, but there’s much we can do to better our relationships and take responsibiliy for our actions.
I like this post, Sue. And I think it totally gets to what I was trying to say in my debate with Sassy on that other thread.
This is key. I think women are generally quite good at givng positive feedback to men in an asexual none gendered equalist sort of way or in ways that mimics what SHE would like to receive from him. Little notes with “I love you” or other comments to show you care. Doing something nice for him. Telling him positive things about him and stuff you apreceate about him. I think many women ARE good at THAT. Thats because the litterature about LTR are filled with advice to do that kind of stuff and women have to a large extent taken it to heart. What they don`t get very often is how to make that psotive energy/effort/appreciation sent from her to him become gendered/erotically charged/be aprpreceative of him as a man. And doing that is, as you say, ALL about respect. Sure, many women know and do a little bit of this adn kinda get a little bit of the make him feel like a hero thing. But that is more like a tiny spice every now and then than how she actually makes him feel about himself and the relationship in general.
One of the most interesting things about showing you appreceate your man in this way and for the man to show a similar appreceation for your femininity is that the act of appreceation itself increases the attraction of the one who gives it. Saying and doing is believing to a very large extent. Lots of social psychology experiments have been done on that. That is why the PUA Juggler recomeded sometimes forcing IOIs (indicators of interest). You can physically move a woman that is slightly interested into the typical posture taken by a more interested woman and she gets more interested because of her own change in bodylanguage. This is the same thing.
The more non gendered general appreceation, although nice and positive in many ways, can easily undermine the relationship. This is because by showing non polarized non gendered appreceation and no polarized gendered appreceation you are in fact telling your subconcious you are appreceating your partner in an asexual manner, not so much in a sexual one. Over time your subconcious will believe that.
THis is VERY owerfull girlgame. Because so few women today master this there is sooo much to gain by you if you master it. But you get into much of the same territory as a man during a pickup in the sense that it has to be (almost) beliveable) or at least seem like you believe it yourself.
The effect of this on me is very similar to when I imagine being in a relationship with a women and agreeing upon implementing Athols captain and first officer roles. If she liked the idea and followed up on it and I knew she would respect my decision it would make me insanely attracted and happy. Even after learning game I haven`t quite been able to take in untill now how living in such a relationship would affect me. Because I was raised so gender equalist I haven`t untill now been able to even imagine how this would feel or even think I would want it. So discovering how it feels is kinda like I think when a woman is with an alpha male. Her attraction is immensly stronger than with a beta and just because he is so uch more valuable just being with him makes her feel more valuable as a woman. This feels similar. Like as if even though women looked good and were quite feminine arround me I coudln`t really appreceatre them and what they could give me untill I could imagine this.
Ted D: “I never want a woman to harp or nag me to do better. (and in fact when I am pushed in this way I tend to purposely dig my heels in.) But, a woman that looks at me as if I *am* better already, makes me want to prove I am, which in turn actually makes me a better person.”
Writing about a particular WWII commander, someone said “He did not try to MAKE men better, he expected them to BE better.”
A subtle but important difference.
Bravo. Beautiful post.
I would like to see an astute game blogger write an open-hearted men’s manifesto that mirrors this. I won’t hold my breath, because such a manifesto would be seen as beta, and white-knighting, and they’d mostly be right. But at some point, men & women need to make some move towards each other in vulnerability. True vulnerability comes from strength, not weakness, and so if game does make men stronger in matters of the heart (I believe it does), then true vulnerability game is an eventuality. I just don’t think the manosphere culture is ready for it yet, but it will come. This is an important first step.
““When my girlfriend looks up to me, I want to be as good as she believes I am. That’s what guys mean when they say, “You make me a better man.””
Interestingly, this one applies to the workplace, too. I find myself more responsive to bosses who seem to genuinely believe in me and have expressed that they really like my output. I find myself wanting to gain even more praise by doing an even better job than before.
FeministEx: Your whole post is about you and what your husband thinks and feels about you. Very telling and unsurprising.
Scipio,
I think that’s a great insight. I think it speaks to what men really want. We might thrive on challenge at times, but we really come into own when we know that someone believes in us implicitly.
Wow. That really struck me – Adam’s desire to be that special to the woman he loves. More important than the music itself. It echoes many of the comments that men have made here at HUS.
Not so surprising really. A man not wanting to be loved soley for his status or ability to provide is the male equivalent of a woman’s not wanting to be loved soley for her body. We all just want to be loved by someone who values us for ourselves.
We might thrive on challenge at times, but we really come into own when we know that someone believes in us implicitly.
Interesting, a few years ago, my DH got us into a jam and attempted to blame me for it. I refused to accept the blame, which infuriated him. But I also emphasized that while I did not accept the blame, I did believe implicitedly that he would get us out of the jam, that everything would be fineand that he had never let me down in all our years toghether. I was amazed at how quickly he cooled down and did what was necessary to fix the problem.
While this article edged on being a bit too mushy for me it touched at my sentimental side. It reminds me of the comment I posted on Badgers latest post last night. Dang it Susan, you always post these blogs right after I make a comment that would have been perfect for this very moment.
Anyway,
Its nice to see that men want other things besides a hot bod, lol. Being respected is a huge thing for men. Last night I comment on Badgers post that Im not going to discount my standards to increase my odds because to me selectivity translates to a man that he was very worthy of being chosen. Isn’t this also why men prefer lower numbers in women? Not only will the odds of the relationship working out increase, it says that she is selective on who she is with so one can assume they must be worthy of something.
For me “hero” means that a man is a really good person and has a strong character and a good heart. He knows what he stands for and who he is. A mix of alpha and beta, no? Lol. Hero is a very calm confidence. I love anything thats great but is being just a little understated. A dose of humility does wonders for a man.
I love the “go all in” advice. I think this is true for both men and women. I know a lot of men might be jaded after a while, but once you feel like you’ve found the right person, Id say throw caution too the wind. I know a lot of people think that idea is outdated but I dont think so. I think people need to take longer to get to know someone and really be thorough in their evaluation of them from the start.
While I feel like my sexuality has caused me to be super selective it is also limiting. I find that I am looking for the type of man I can treat the way in which you described but he might slip right through my fingers because it takes me a while to actually choose a person. Im also quite nurturing but I dont nurture just anybody. I read a comment somewhere where someone said: “5% of the people in my life receive 95% of my affection”. That rang extremely true for me.
I also like showering with a person I have feelings for. Not to have sex, but I also enjoy washing a man. Not just his back either but his whole body. Especially if he uses Old Spice. I also like to be washed. It makes me feel cared for. Just like cooking for someone that is capable of doing it themselves. I think washing is a bonding experience as well.
Sadly though, Ive never been able to “go all in”. Ive dated 2 people and they weren’t “right”. Its hard to explain but I couldnt completely open myself up in the relationship. My last bf, I dated because he had a good heart, but his immaturity, and my inability to be “deep” with him caused me to not be fully receptive.
Re cock worship:
I really liked this one. Made me Lol. But its really true for me. But again, I havent gotten to the point where I can do this with a person. First person I dated, I wouldnt blow him, second one I did but wasn’t down for swallowing. I think it comes down to how much I like them and my feelings for them. I have yet to be in the place of worshiping someones cock. I havent found a “worthy” man yet.
In lieu of rambling further Ill stop here. I did appreciate this post though. It gave me a lot to think about. Thanks!
Charm – “Im not going to discount my standards to increase my odds because to me selectivity translates to a man that he was very worthy of being chosen. Isn’t this also why men prefer lower numbers in women? Not only will the odds of the relationship working out increase, it says that she is selective on who she is with so one can assume they must be worthy of something.”
Bingo!
My mom gave some really good advice — and like Scipio (#10) said, it works in all kinds of realms. The advice was this:
“What people will remember about you is the way you make them feel.”
Not how many accomplishments you have or your money or what the world says. Even if you’re the beautiful woman in the world, if you make a man feel small, petty or “less than,” that is your ultimate impression on him and the way he will always remember you.
If you make someone feel really good about themselves and how they are around you, it makes a positive feedback loop, in my experience. I have managed many a difficult client that way (non-romantic, of course).
She also said, “What you focus on, you will only get more of.” So if you focus on a person’s flaws and short-comings, expect a whole lot more of that coming your way!
The better path is to recognize what they are doing well and commend it. Then, if there is some issue, tell them the truth the way you yourself would like to hear it said to you (i.e. tell the truth in love). Not the quick and easy way, but definitely more effective, in my experience.
@Fem Ex
Its sounds nice but I’d never do all that for a guy who was running game on me like PUAs advice, all this push-pull bullshit and whatnot.
I think 75% of respecting your mate is finding someone who actually can respect; 25% is being appreciative. (If that sounds low, it’s only because it’s easy to appreciate a good thing.)
You shouldn’t respect every idiot who comes along and says,”Respect me because I’m a man and we need respect.” (Not matter how easy to is to manipulate men by doing just that.) OTOH, you shouldn’t marry a man who is unworthy of respect. The PUA thing falls down where it teaches men to look worthy of respect in superficial ways without developing real strength of character.
“Women don’t realize that nagging, criticism, griping, rolling your eyes and not acknowleding acts of kindness can damage pieces of the relationship as time goes on.”
Warm Woman, are you Indian? Got that impression because you said you thought about having an arranged marriage. If so, do you think our culture produces particularly nagging women? I do.
“She also said, “What you focus on, you will only get more of.” So if you focus on a person’s flaws and short-comings, expect a whole lot more of that coming your way! ”
+1. What you put out is what you get. The universe is a simple mathematical equation.
That’s why I’m an advocate of being happy when you’re single before you get involved in a relationship. How can you expect a happy relationship if you’re focused on negativity?
Warm Woman,
+1.
Feminist Ex,
Its sounds nice but I’d never do all that for a guy who was running game on me like PUAs advice, all this push-pull bullshit and whatnot. I’ve only ever done those things for my husband, who completely adores me and isn’t afraid to let it show. In fact, I’d warn women not to go whole hog like this until your man adores you and only you.
ASF,
FeministEx: Your whole post is about you and what your husband thinks and feels about you. Very telling and unsurprising.
The thing is, what should come first? Should a woman show her vulnerablility and appreciation to her man first, or should she wait until he shows her adoration and genuine feelings towards her. I think what Feminist Ex was saying was that she believes that women should wait to see if the guy’s feelings are true before they give their all to a man. Since her husband’s feelings were genuine, she shows him respect and love in return.
But again, who should “go first”?
The effect of this on me is very similar to when I imagine being in a relationship with a women and agreeing upon implementing Athols captain and first officer roles.
So the appeal of the captain and first officer roles is that it helps men to feel respected?
*high fives Warm Woman*
ITA about being happy now. Besides, who is a guy going to want to be with– someone positive and pleasant, or someone negative and bittery?
And being happy includes not being controlled by fear of the future, for me at least. I am focused on being the best person I can be, with a goal of an awesome marriage.
If I can’t find it or it doesn’t happen by a certain age, I will still focus on being my best self, good character and being happy to be alive. Not on being scared that I will wind up with only 89 cats and 300 empty whisky bottles for comfort.
Renee,
I don’t think it’s an all of nothing thing. You show a bit and see what you get back, and then feed off of that. Sort of like flirting: you feel each other out.
FemEx – “Its sounds nice but I’d never do all that for a guy who was running game on me like PUAs advice, all this push-pull bullshit and whatnot.”
I agree. I still greatly dislike the entire concept of game as I see it presented by Roissy and the PUA community. Hell, I dislike putting some of the concepts Athol teaches in action because they feel manipulative to me. But, I can’t deny the results.
The truth is I want to treat a woman like she is a princess. I want to put her on a pedestal and worship her. But, I know beyond ALL doubt now that doing so will kill any attraction she has for me, and I’m learning that if I want a successful LTR, I need to change how I treat my SO. I find myself on occasion having to do things that I find distasteful, and even maybe a little hurtful, just to keep things in balance.
I really don’t know what to take away from this, other than knowing that what I thought I was supposed to be in a LTR is NOT in my or my SO’s best interests. I’ve also found that I am getting more of the behavior I want from my SO by treating her in ways that I find counter-intuitive. That being said, my current SO is by far the least drama oriented of any of my LTR partners, so I feel like this could be MUCH worse for me.
I would love to have someone or something in particular to blame for all this, but after the initial shock and anger subsided I realized that if there is anyone to blame, it is myself. If it is in a woman’s nature to respond a certain way based on how she is treated, how is that her fault? It isn’t. However, I think she should do her best to understand how she reacts to these queues, so she can decide if she wants to behave as nature intended, or go against it and use higher judgement instead.
So, although I agree with you that guys who rely on game alone are probably undeserving of real respect and admiration from a woman, I can’t agree that any use of game concepts follows the same logic.
Feminist Ex
Yes, I’m Indian. Does our culture produce nagging women? Maybe. But, doesn’t American culture do the same?
LOL oops. I mean cues. I let my IT slip.
Ted,
I think it’s fine to treat your woman like she’s a princess, as long as you do it from the frame of “prince.” If she’s princess and you’re the pauper, then she loses respect for you. Pedestalize her, but get yourself up on the pedestal with her.
Jackie-
Your words echo my point in the “feminism end game thread” to framboise, unless I misunderstood him.
I could have been engaged by now, if I chose to stay with a man that I broke up with a few months ago. But, my heart knew that we weren’t a good fit once we learned more about each other. My main priority now is just to be the best I can be. While I would like an awesome marriage too, I’m not desperately seeking it or trying to control when it happens.
“The truth is I want to treat a woman like she is a princess. I want to put her on a pedestal and worship her. ”
My husband does that for me.
“But, I know beyond ALL doubt now that doing so will kill any attraction she has for me”
Really? That’s strange. I wonder why? It makes me love my hubby all the more and realize how good I have it. Some husbands ignore their wives, or even worse, mistreat them.
In retrospect, I’ve done this without realising and there was always</em< a noticeable difference afterwards. Sometimes big, sometimes small but appreciated nonetheless. It's SO difficult to put it into practise though because everyone is guarded and on the defensive. It's sad that we actually have something called vulnerability Game now. Oh, and I have to cosign FemEx's comment on push/pull – whoever invented that shit can go die in a fire. It might be tingle-friendly at first but it gets tired fast.
I had to read this a few times…
Jesus M. – That is exactly the line of thought I’ve been going with. I can treat her as well as I want, provided I somehow indicate that I feel that I deserve at least as good from her. My real weakness was that I assumed that my treating her so well would get her to reciprocate back. Of course it doesn’t. And sure, she enjoys being treated well, so I do it. But, I have to remind myself that I deserve to be treated well in return, and instead of assuming it will come, I expect it to come and speak up when it doesn’t.
I suppose it is lingering baggage from my Catholic upbringing. the whole “treat others as you want to be treated” thing. So instead of behaving as I want to be treated, I behave as I want and enjoy behaving, and clearly define how I expect to be treated. I’m not nearly 100% there yet, but I’m certainly better off than I was a few years back.
“Yes, I’m Indian. Does our culture produce nagging women? Maybe. But, doesn’t American culture do the same?”
Not anywhere to the same extent. It has to do with djb’s idealization of the “powerful mother-in-law” syndrome. He doesn’t realize that the flip side of that is everyone else in the house has to tolerate obsessive and tyrannical behaviour. Its not healthy. AT ALL!
American women have their own lives outside of family so they don’t have to jostle for power within it.
Ted,
Yea. You have to treat yourself as a prince, first and foremost. And then, you need to tell your partner what you expect. If you’re giving her the royal treatment, it shouldn’t offend her sensibilities for you to expect it in return.
“Really? That’s strange. I wonder why? It makes me love my hubby all the more and realize how good I have it. Some husbands ignore their wives, or even worse, mistreat them.”
Lots of reason, but on a basic level because treating my ex like that without demanding it in return lowered my standing in relation to her, and with it lowered her attraction to me. It may be that you are completely different, and there are a few other female regulars here that are as well. But, game concepts do seem to work on the vast majority of women, to an extent.
And it seems that you are very against the Captain/FO scenario in your marriage, which is perfectly fine if what you have works. But, I’ve posted elsewhere here that my ex once told me that she always wanted me to “lead the family” and yet couldn’t explain what exactly that meant. I didn’t get it at all back then, but I certainly do now. She wanted me to be the Captain. I can’t tell you how much effort I put into trying to keep our marriage “equal” and “fair”, only to find out that what I should have been doing was taking charge and making decisions. I thought I was “leading” by supporting my family, keeping a roof over our heads, and food in the fridge. But none of that really mattered in terms of “leading” as she was looking for.
My current SO likes to be more involved in decisions, and I still try to keep things relatively equal. But, what has changed is that I no longer compromise on everything. Sometimes I simply make a stand and stick to it. I no longer take shitty behavior from her, and instead call her on it when it happens. I used to avoid making my ex angry, but I no longer make that my primary concern. As much as I dislike it, sometimes I just have to piss her off a little for the greater good. I never considered myself a pushover before, but in many ways I did allow my ex to dictate how I behaved, even though neither of us realized it.
Ted,
I want to put her on a pedestal and worship her
You shouldn’t have to; decent, loving behavior should be enough.
I find myself on occasion having to do things that I find distasteful, and even maybe a little hurtful, just to keep things in balance.
That’s tragic. When my DH and Ifirst got together, we were both pretty sick of meeting game players. We pledged to treat each other decently, and we stuck to that. It’s worked for us.
I don’t see the problem as just a female thing as no one wants a pushover and everyone wants to pursue a challenging mate. OTOH, mature people eventually do tire of game playing and want to exercise their higher selves. Is your SO an insightful enough person that the two of you can talk this out?
Feminism taught women that men, by their very nature, were unworthy of this kind of respect.
Unless, of course, they were movie stars, athletes, or some other high-status guy.
They rest? Well, “men are pigs” – a common female statement from that era says it all.
American women were, by and large, taught to regard men in the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you describe. They were taught to see male instincts and motivations as baser, lower, defective, etc.
No wonder so many women cannot find a “good man” – in fact, I am surprised they even believe such a thing exists.
And since all men are pigs, there is obviously no reason whatsoever to try to give their future husband a reasonably chaste wife – may as well tramp it, right?
I can treat her as well as I want, provided I somehow indicate that I feel that I deserve at least as good from her.
That’s good.
I assumed that my treating her so well would get her to reciprocate back. Of course it doesn’t.
That’s a problem; that’s selfishness.
If may, chapter 10 of Wild At Heart:
“A Beauty to Rescue”
http://books.google.com/books?id=mhbQ4DNT-I8C&pg=PA178&dq=wild+at+heart+a+beauty+to+rescue&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PcAZT8qqI4f4tgeqwsmcCw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=wild%20at%20heart%20a%20beauty%20to%20rescue&f=false
I believe we’ve lost something far greater than we know when we lost some of the olden courtship rites.
Nate,
I’ve read Wild at Heart. I picked it up along with all the game books I got over the summer. It’s a great read, though I could do without the religion.
I like J. She’s a good egg.
Thanks.
You too.
J – “I don’t see the problem as just a female thing as no one wants a pushover and everyone wants to pursue a challenging mate. OTOH, mature people eventually do tire of game playing and want to exercise their higher selves. Is your SO an insightful enough person that the two of you can talk this out?”
Oh its not nearly horrible like that.
I really dislike doing or saying things that will cause her to be angry at me. But I can’t always make decisions based on her happiness. I find it distasteful to have to go against her, but I do it when necessary. We really don’t play games, and I don’t find myself having to constantly “game” her at all. But, my natural instincts to please her and keep her happy are the root of my problems. I simply can’t keep her happy because it isn’t in my power. She is the only one that can make her happy. All I can do is provide an environment where she can be happy, and she has to do the rest.
This is new stuff for me, just like realizing that she is responsible for her orgasms. Surely I do my best to please her, but I can’t do that so much that I disregard my own pleasure, or neither of us enjoys it. I can’t tell you how much of a difference this simple concept made in my sex life!
Much of it stems from my upbringing of course. I was taught for the most part that what I wanted isn’t always important, and in many cases what I wanted was irrelevant. I grew up believing that my ultimate purpose in life was to marry and sacrifice my desires for my family, because that was the model I grew up seeing with my grandparents. So, I find it difficult sometimes to ask for and expect what I want and/or need. I feel like I am being selfish if I ask for something for myself. I don’t talk much about my accomplishments because it feels like bragging. (in fact, I just had my yearly review at work and HATED every second. I can’t stand having to sit and listen to all the “great things I’ve done for the company”. I’d rather just get a raise.
)
Basically I always believed that my SO’s happiness was my issue to solve constantly. If she was unhappy, it must be my fault. If she was happy, I was doing my job. Its BS, and not an easy thing to fix. I’d rather have to quit smoking again than deal with this!
J – “That’s a problem; that’s selfishness.”
I agree it was a core problem. But how is it selfishness? I actually chalked it up to sheer stupidity on my part. I’m very intrigued by this…
And some of us are grateful for the religion.
As the saying goes (amended), with all the secular books on game, isn’t there room for just 1 religious one?
“As the saying goes (amended), with all the secular books on game, isn’t there room for just 1 religious one?”
Maybe. But if a couple is following a Christian faith to the letter, I don’t think game comes into it much. Traditional Christian “rules” for marriage kinda setup a Captain/FO situation by default. The problem is, less people are following those religiously based rules, and that means another method of managing marriages must be found. Hence game.
@Ted D – That’s not really in the context of the conversation we were having.
Also, your point ends up proving mine. If it’s a minority need, than just 1 book (of many) is fine.
The thing is, what should come first? Should a woman show her vulnerablility and appreciation to her man first, or should she wait until he shows her adoration and genuine feelings towards her. I think what Feminist Ex was saying was that she believes that women should wait to see if the guy’s feelings are true before they give their all to a man. Since her husband’s feelings were genuine, she shows him respect and love in return.
But again, who should “go first”?
Certainly not the man, because that is a sign that the guy may have fewer options and is a kind of DLV. That doesn’t mean a guy shouldn’t ever say things like that, but he shouldn’t be the first for purposes of maintaining his frame.
But how is it selfishness? I actually chalked it up to sheer stupidity on my part. I’m very intrigued by this…
Sorry, Ted, I guess my pronoun reference was unclear. It is selfish for HER not to realize that she needs to reciprocate. You aren’t being selfish.
NateW. – Sure, I see your point. I just don’t think game and religion coexist easily. I think game replaces religion in terms of teaching men how to deal with women in relationships. Where religion used to set the expectations and standards, game now teaches men to deal with women who’s expectations are ridiculously high or out of touch, because they were not set.
If it can make money, someone will write it. But I still contend that any couple really following their Church’s/faith’s teachings probably shouldn’t need game, at least as it is presented by the PUA community.
FWIW, I think Athol Kay does a pretty good job of teaching game concepts that despite his lack of a structured faith, work well within the framework OF faith.
“This is new stuff for me, just like realizing that she is responsible for her orgasms. Surely I do my best to please her, but I can’t do that so much that I disregard my own pleasure, or neither of us enjoys it. I can’t tell you how much of a difference this simple concept made in my sex life!”
I don’t understand this. Surely when she’s masterbating she’s responsible for her own orgasm, but when having sex with someone else it takes two to tango.
J – “Sorry, Ted, I guess my pronoun reference was unclear. It is selfish for HER not to realize that she needs to reciprocate. You aren’t being selfish.”
Ahhh no worries.
I don’t think she was being selfish. She is a great person, and actually one of the most selfless people I know. But, she wanted a relationship that was far more traditional than I was raised to believe is “fair” and “equal”, and frankly the way I treated her just didn’t sit well. From her perspective, she was missing something but couldn’t figure out what it was or how to get it. And from my perspective I was doing everything I was supposed to in order to make her happy, but it wasn’t working. Even the kindest person in the world gets a bit selfish when they are unhappy.
“But again, who should “go first”?”
The couple builds off each other. Obviously if they have gone from the first date to the second, it is obvious they both liked each other enough to see each other again. So they build from there, back and forth. Its not a matter of keeping score but of acting and reacting, giving and taking.
But I can’t always make decisions based on her happiness.
Of course, you can’t. No one can. Sometimes in the course of a relationship, people disagree. You have to work things out.
But, my natural instincts to please her and keep her happy are the root of my problems.
Maybe they are, if you go too far to try to please. There’s a middle ground between SOB and pushover. That’s the zone both parties should try to occupy in a relationship.
I simply can’t keep her happy because it isn’t in my power. She is the only one that can make her happy.
Exactly.
All I can do is provide an environment where she can be happy, and she has to do the rest.
I would say that all you are obligated to do is not create an enviornment that will not make her unhappy. In a reasonable enviornment, she has the obligation to act as a co-creator of your life together.
Much of it stems from my upbringing of course. I was taught for the most part that what I wanted isn’t always important, and in many cases what I wanted was irrelevant.
I had a similar upbringing. It’s a load of crap, really.
I grew up believing that my ultimate purpose in life was to marry and sacrifice my desires for my family
No, family should also be a source of joy for you.
I feel like I am being selfish if I ask for something for myself. I don’t talk much about my accomplishments because it feels like bragging.
Yeah, I know, but get over it. It’s an invitation to the unscrupulous to victimize you.
Basically I always believed that my SO’s happiness was my issue to solve constantly.
No, it isn’t. There are a lot of guys in the ‘sphere who regard me as a bitch, and I’M telling you it isn’t your problem.
@Renee: But again, who should “go first”?
That’s the fundamental dysfunction of the modern American (Western?) SMP: People don’t want to go first for a variety of reasons that have entered positive feedback cycles (it’s amazing that positive feedback is considered good when most engineers will tell you most of the time negative feedback is more valuable…Susan, maybe there is a post in that showing how slutwalks vs slutshaming are positive and negative feedback for the SMP and how the former is bad engineering)
I happen to think that sacrificing yourself to people or things you love IS a source of happiness. Of course, I also think that growing and developing as an individual is a source of happiness. But then, part of the reason I want to grow and develop is to be able to give more of myself. Which I know will make me stronger and more able to give. And on and on.
I’m happiest while giving. Though, there are times when what’s needed is to give a person space to grow on her own, to allow people to fall and get up on their own.
Ted,
Scratch what I said in post #54 if I am misundertanding the problem.
But, she wanted a relationship that was far more traditional than I was raised to believe is “fair” and “equal”, and frankly the way I treated her just didn’t sit well.
So, based on a previous discussion we had, you wanted an egalitarian relationship where you didn’t have to lead all the time and she wanted..what? Captain/First Mate? Something even more taditional?
J – I know that know, but I didn’t a few years ago. I’m still in the process of changing things for the better, but it takes time. And, I’m doing it while being in a LTR, which makes the task much harder in my opinion. I think it would have been far easier to have learned all this when I didn’t have someone in my life. I found it very difficult to keep some of the anger and resentment I felt from bleeding into my current relationship, but I managed that trick. Now, I have to work on integrating what I’ve learned in a way that gets the correct results, but doesn’t make me feel like I had to compromise the things I like about myself. I’m starting to think this phase will be much harder than getting past the anger, as now the hard work begins.
And this is why I tend to get my panties in a bunch when the whole leading subject comes up. It is still a bit of a sore subject for me.
I happen to think that sacrificing yourself to people or things you love IS a source of happiness. Of course, I also think that growing and developing as an individual is a source of happiness.
Right on both counts!! There’s a balance that needs to be struck. WHat you said upthread is really important. There’s a difference between giving magnanimously from a postion of strength and giving till there’s nothing left to give.
@ (r)Evoluzione
Check out Athol Kay’s Married Man Sex Life blog.
I think you’ll find his focus on applied game for marriage similar to what you like.
J
Absolutely. Hope came up with an example that I think illustrates it nicely. She said that if you’re in a plane crash and the oxygen masks come down, you’re supposed to put your mask on first, before attending to anyone else. This isn’t selfishness; it’s done with the knowledge that a steady supply of oxygen into your body is going to allow you to be a greater help to others.
The couple builds off each other. Obviously if they have gone from the first date to the second, it is obvious they both liked each other enough to see each other again. So they build from there, back and forth. Its not a matter of keeping score but of acting and reacting, giving and taking.
Given, in a very real way, relations between the sexes have reached a cold war point the couple can’t build off each other until they get to rapprochement…given the amount of work it takes to get to detente (whose French meaning, relaxation, is very appropriate when applying the diplomatic scale to relationships) someone has to go first in trust building before the other can feed off them.
“Much of it stems from my upbringing of course. I was taught for the most part that what I wanted isn’t always important, and in many cases what I wanted was irrelevant.
I grew up believing that my ultimate purpose in life was to marry and sacrifice my desires for my family.”
This is how we are taught in Indian culture. I’m surprised to hear an American was taught the same thing. The impression is that Americans are brought up to be too selfish and not put family first.
J – “So, based on a previous discussion we had, you wanted an egalitarian relationship where you didn’t have to lead all the time and she wanted..what? Captain/First Mate? Something even more taditional?”
Exactly. But, it isn’t that I wanted an egalitarian relationship, its that I didn’t know there was another way. Looking back at my grandparents, I can clearly see that it wasn’t egalitarian in any way, but my mother and grandmother always told me that “this isn’t the way is should be! Woman want to be equal in a relationship, etc…” So far, I haven’t seen this in practice. Most successful relationships I see, the man does tend to be the captain for lack of a better term.
My ex definitely wanted at least that scenario. She tends to dislike making decisions, and also tends to ride the fence on issues. So, while I was trying to be fair and allow her decisions to carry equal weight, she would rather I simply made the decisions and consulted her.
I’ve said many times, I dislike leading. I do it at work because I wanted to make more money, which meant taking on more responsibility, which meant moving into management. I do project stuff so that I have a very small group of dedicated staff, but I do need to manage individual people’s time and deadlines. It isn’t that I am not capable of leading, its that I generally dislike being responsible for other people. I chose that role when I had children, but I never expected to have to lead a wife. I always wanted to be able to come home and drop all the leading stuff and simply coexist peacefully with my mate. Obviously some women desire an egalitarian setup, but either I am not attracted to those types of women, or there just aren’t many around my parts. All I can say is, to one extent or the other, every one of my LTR partners has wanted me to lead. My ex just happened to want a LOT more leading.
And, I’m doing it while being in a LTR, which makes the task much harder in my opinion. I think it would have been far easier to have learned all this when I didn’t have someone in my life.
Yeah, I know. Unfortunately, if you don’t learn it at home, it’s most likely to come up again in an LTR. When I was first married, I (unconsciously) expected that my husband would automatically do what was best for me because I didn’t get that from my parents and I wanted it to be an automatic part of love. It was just too much to expect because my DH is also a falliable human being with a crappy past. The problems that come up in relationships come up because we have a lesson to learn (or unlearn).
,i>I found it very difficult to keep some of the anger and resentment I felt from bleeding into my current relationship, but I managed that trick.
Wow! Good for you! It’s really hard not to replay that stuff.
Now, I have to work on integrating what I’ve learned in a way that gets the correct results, but doesn’t make me feel like I had to compromise the things I like about myself.
Yes, exactly. It will be hard, but it sounds like you are up to the task.
“This is new stuff for me, just like realizing that she is responsible for her orgasms.” I can’t wrap my head around this one. What’s the point of having sex with someone else if you are responsible for your own orgasm?
Ted,
A woman should take part in making choices, too. If you have to decide everything from budget, to what’s for dinner, to what friends you’ll be seeing on Friday and when to try to start potty training the kids, then you’ve got an entitlement princess on your hands. Being a leader doesn’t mean having to make every decision. Only that you oversee what’s happening, set the general direction, and take care of some of the important stuff.
OMG. Is it really so difficult? If your man’s pumping away and it’s not doing anything for you, then you tell him what feels good, you give feedback, you suggest new things, you take the reins now and then if you need to, etc…
JM–
Yeah. And nice metaphor on Hope’s part!
J-
I know. Hope’s a smart cookie.
Those are great recommendations, Susan. Both aspects you’ve mentioned, the respect and femininity, are incredibly important.
I’ve seen a husband absolutely deflate when publicly emasculated by his wife at a friend’s house party. One minute he was sociable and pleasant, and with one tawdry remark from her, he became silent and sullen. Conversely, women can empower a man. Try telling him that you’re thankful for all he does for you, or that you’re proud of how are he works. You may see a drastic change.
Then there’s the femininity. This alone can really set you apart in the socio-sexual market. When a woman wears something revealing, it will elicit a sexual response from men. However, without femininity, it will be a shallow response at best. Sure, he’d “hit that,” but she’ll be little more than a dirty bang in his memory.
But when a woman displays that special blend of beauty and femininity a man wants HER. Not just her breasts, ass, etc., but HER. The pleasure is not just in the sex, but also in the intimacy. It’s a large part of what separates a “good woman” from a “good time.” You feel strong as she melts in your arms. You feel desired as she clings to you. You feel pleasure in conquering because she wants you to conquer. It’s hard to explain, but this is what truly bonds a man to you during sex. It’s the difference between sex, “because she’s hot,” and sex, “because it’s her.”
Gabriel´s last [type] ..Musings: What Edward Cullen can teach us. . .
@Feminist Ex
” The impression is that Americans are brought up to be too selfish and not put family first.”
Woah. All heeellllll naw! Lol. One a more serious note:
America is just a highly individualistic society. To some degree everyone is out for themselves first, but should also care about other people. I think its the other way around in a lot of other cultures. Especially homogeneous ones. I think a lot of American women become entitled when they refuse to realize that even though what they want, need, and desire is important, so are the needs of the person you are with. In walks Mr. Compromise. American women have a “have your cake and eat it too” attitude that is detrimental in the end.
@Ted D
I replied to you in the forum about sexuality. Just to give you a heads up
“OMG. Is it really so difficult? If your man’s pumping away and it’s not doing anything for you, then you tell him what feels good, you give feedback, you suggest new things, you take the reins now and then if you need to, etc…”
That still means he’s responsible for following her directions and delivering the O.
“America is just a highly individualistic society. ”
I know, I grew up here and that’s what I like about it. I wouldn’t have had the same freedoms in India, though there I would have had all kinds of paid domestic help. For example its doubtful if I would have been able to date to the extent I dated here. Depending on the region I may not have been able to date at all, and for me that would have sucked big time. I really think we Indians can live the best of both worlds here. We can be almost as free as we want and when the time comes we can fall back on our traditional family networks if need be, like I did.
And she’s responsible for telling him what she needs. So that’s what people mean when they say that. So it’s clear to you now. You’re no longer confused.
@Feminist Ex
Men are also responsible for their own orgasm. It’s just easier for us.
@Wudang
Great insight! I didn’t think about it, but you’re right. There’s also a great feedback loop that happens – for example, when my husband was totally stressed out at work for a time, he was coming home every day in a pretty bad mood. I began to have a deliberate kind of routine. I would ask him about his day, listen attentively while he vented, then I would give him positive reinforcement for what I thought he’d done well. (He and I have always advised one another on office politics.) Then I’d pamper him – tell him to change while I poured him a glass of wine and got dinner going. I could literally watch him unwind and by dinnertime he would be in good spirits again. After a while, just stepping in the front door began to have this effect, and he was a lot more relaxed on weekends too. The stress didn’t disappear, but home became a refuge from it. And of course, I found him more “beddable” when he was in a good mood rather than an angry one.
FemEx – “This is how we are taught in Indian culture. I’m surprised to hear an American was taught the same thing. The impression is that Americans are brought up to be too selfish and not put family first.”
Well I don’t know that I had a typical American upbringing. I was born in 1970 to a single mother. As such, she couldn’t support me alone and we lived with my grandparents, who were both born in Europe. (My grandmother was French, my grandfather Polish). Since they were both “old world” they both had very traditional views for the most part. The only exception was that both my mother and grandmother totally bought into feminist dogma of the 70′s and 80′s. My grandmother came across as not being happy in her marriage, but that it was “her duty” to stay and rough it out. But, because of that unhappiness, she very much tried to instill in me the desire for an egalitarian relationship. My grandfather was very old-school “manly” man, but didn’t get involved with me much as a young child. He later told me (when I was in my 20′s) that he didn’t feel like it was his place to get involved in my upbringing directly, but that he always worried that my mother and grandmother would turn me into a ‘sissy’ with their feminist crap. It was WAY too late by then, I had spent too many years believing what I was told, and he just didn’t understand the depth of it. The only things I got from him were my ideals about self-sacrifice and putting your family first. He worked in steel mills most of his life, and because of it had many back and leg issues later in life. He worked his ass off for my mom and aunts, and continued to do so for me even though he didn’t feel like he had a say in how I was raised. He almost never spent money on himself, and put his family’s needs over his desires his entire life.
My grandmother meant well, as did my mother. They were both unhappy with their lot in life, and because of that tried to steer me in a direction they thought would keep me from the same fate. In many ways they succeeded, as I am certainly better off financially than they were. But, they concentrated on teaching me all about responsibility and duty, but never really told me that I should do things for myself. Looking back, I realize all the stuff my mother told me about how a marriage should work were based on what she THOUGHT she wanted. My grandmother based her advice on being unhappy, but that probably had much more to do with getting married to a man at 17 years old only two weeks after meeting him, and then having to move to a new country without him until is tour was over.
Jeez didn’t mean to ramble so much. But, its Friday and quitting time! Time to make like a tree and leave.
“Men are also responsible for their own orgasm. It’s just easier for us.”
That’s a given. It doesn’t take a whole hell of anything to get you guys off. Women are different and that’s why HE is responsible for her orgasm as well as his. I found this while searching around for “responsible orgasm”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7dbq7A1U5o&list=PL149A89B582DC73B9&feature=plcp
Ted,
Most successful relationships I see, the man does tend to be the captain for lack of a better term.
My own marriage is pretty egalitarian, but you and your SO need to work out something that works for you two.
She tends to dislike making decisions, and also tends to ride the fence on issues. So, while I was trying to be fair and allow her decisions to carry equal weight, she would rather I simply made the decisions and consulted her.
I guess there are women like that. I personally want to have a say and feel that as an adult I’d be shirking adult responsible (or having taken from me) is my husband made all the decisions w/o at least consulting me. OTOH, you need to respond to the person youi are with, not to me.
I’ve said many times, I dislike leading. I do it at work…. It isn’t that I am not capable of leading, its that I generally dislike being responsible for other people. I chose that role when I had children, but I never expected to have to lead a wife.
Not sure what to say here. My husband feels the same you do and acccuses me of not doing my share if I wait for him to come home and “micro-manage.” It’s sort of hard for me to imagine not stepping up or even not wanting to step up. But if you are really uncomfortable with her not doing that, you’ll have to sort this out with her.
I always wanted to be able to come home and drop all the leading stuff and simply coexist peacefully with my mate.
Yeah, to me that is the ideal.
Obviously some women desire an egalitarian setup, but either I am not attracted to those types of women, or there just aren’t many around my parts.
IME, we are a large minority, outnumbered by both the nags and the doormats. But we’re out there. I had a hard time finding my husband; it felt like everyone I meet was an SOB or a doormat. I hate dominators and eat doormats for breakfast, so I was lucky to find a guy who could occupy the sane midle ground.
Depending on the religion, it may not coexist easily with anything. It’s an old principle of Christianity that all must be in subservience to it. But then that’s getting into deeper theology and philosophies such as a proper hierarchy of things. We could discuss it on the forums if you want to run a contest on how many posters we can lull into comas.
I don’t think I can argue with you on that, really. Though the statement reads funny to me since the book I was quoting is so much more than just “religious game”. Comparing the PUA’s lessons to it is like comparing instructions on making a PB&J sandwich to full course meal instructions from a master chef.
@Scipio
Me too! Positive reinforcement is so powerful – and at work I’ve found that when I have this dynamic with a boss (always a man) we wind up having each other’s back. I make him look great to his superiors, he rewards me with praise, promotions, etc. That’s how I’ve developed mentor relationships in the past. It’s essential that the positive energy flows both ways.
I have found women bosses to be terrible at this, but perhaps they’re better with male subordinates?
Wow, you sound like you’d be a blast in the sack.
@Jackie #16
“What people will remember about you is the way you make them feel.”
“What you focus on, you will only get more of.”
I think those have been the missing pieces of my Game. I won’t forget this, thanks.
“My grandfather was very old-school “manly” man, but didn’t get involved with me much as a young child. He later told me (when I was in my 20′s) that he didn’t feel like it was his place to get involved in my upbringing directly, but that he always worried that my mother and grandmother would turn me into a ‘sissy’ with their feminist crap. ”
“My grandmother meant well, as did my mother. They were both unhappy with their lot in life, and because of that tried to steer me in a direction they thought would keep me from the same fate. In many ways they succeeded, as I am certainly better off financially than they were. But, they concentrated on teaching me all about responsibility and duty”
How is that “feminist crap”?
He didn’t say what the feminist crap was….
“I want you, when you listen, to listen to me playing. To listen to me, not the music.”
- This tells me that the guy doesn’t compose his own stuff. (Which, if he’s a trained pianist, makes sense). As someone who plays guitar and sings casually – at bars and stuff in my younger days, but still casually – I can tell you that having a chick dig the music your playing is a VERY strong panty-wetting technique. UNLESS…you’re playing a cover version of a well-known, popular song. In cases like that, the chick’s rapt attention is ambiguous in nature: she might be getting tingles from your awesome coolness, or she might just be reminiscing about the time she got banged over the summer with that tune in the background.
The trick is to write your own shit. Obviously, you learn by playing other people’s stuff, but if you’re playing music for a girl it should be an original composition. Even if it’s not that good (compared to other songs you can play), you’ll at least force the girl to conflate the music with your personhood, and if she like the former she will find herself being intrigued by the latter.
Also, if possible, sing. Force yourself to not suck at it, even if you’re mostly a guitar (or piano) player. Seriously, as long as you’re not horribly out of key, it’s better to be the singer than not the singer. If you sing, there’s NO WAY you can be unsure if she’s listening to you or the “music”.
@Renee
In the post I’m talking to women and suggesting they go first. I think men respond better to early indications of being willing to go all in than women do. Women fear that too much interest from a man too early indicates that he has few options – the opposite of preselection. Whereas men indicate that a woman’s attraction to them can make them feel incredible, and they’ll want to be around her more. To me it seems obvious – be open and honest about your attraction and feelings for a man. If he doesn’t return them, that sucks, but so what. Another guy will.
Note the main caveat, however: the man must be worthy by having good character. Don’t think you’re going to flip a cad with this strategy. This is the way to a relationship-minded man’s heart, not a player’s heart.
Someone needs to break the standoff, waiting to see who will blink first. There are a LOT of great relationships that are never happening because no one took a risk up front. It’s such a waste, and that’s such a high opportunity cost!
“My grandmother came across as not being happy in her marriage, but that it was “her duty” to stay and rough it out.”
This is what we are taught in Indian culture and it really does suck because sometimes couples are completely incompatible. One could be very emotionally expressive and romantic while the other is cold and distant. One could be a sex maniac while the other a prude or unable to perform or pleasure the other. Its really hit or miss. Yet you will find Indians bragging about our low divorce rates, as if that’s a marker for a happy marriage.
A-bax,
I think you’re missing the point of that excerpt. The woman was going to take a theory course in order to be able to better follow the music. What he’s saying is that what he likes is for her to pay attention to him up there playing, and not whether the music he’s playing is a rondo or a minuet, or how the theme and motifs are developed throughout the piece. He wants her to see him, the man, pouring his heart and soul into what he’s playing as he performs.
But, its Friday and quitting time! Time to make like a tree and leave.
Enjoy your weekend, Ted. If you check in over the week-end, I just want to say that I think you are on the right track.
Jesus Mahoney,
If the guy were composing his own music, he would welcome her deeper understanding of it. The reason he feels threatened by a deeper understanding of music theory on the part of his girl is because in his mind that understanding COMPETES with him as the player. This only makes sense if he is not the author of the music. If he were the author, her attraction to him would be magnified by a better understanding of the complexity of his craft.
Artists, as long as they’re “orginal” artists, beget stronger tingles in women who have a basic understanding of what their craft is all about that women without such knowledge.
They guy was threatened precisely because a deeper understanding of music on the part of his girl would reveal to her that he was a “technician” (perhaps a very talented one), but not an “artist”. No chick gets wet for technicians.
Women are different and that’s why HE is responsible for her orgasm as well as his
I’d say a guy is responsible for not messing up a woman’s orgasm by not ejaculating prematurely for example, but he can’t MAKE her come.
@Ted D
+1
Ted,
This is FASCINATING. Your mother sounds exactly like my BF’s mother, and your grandfather sounds like his grandfather. I really think Pittsburgh people have a very distinct way of handling families/finances/parenting. It’s so different from how I was raised in east PA.
It’s amazing how the way we’re brought up has such a great influence on our worldviews. I know it shouldn’t shock me, I’m a social worker after all, but it’s funny because even geography matters, even something as specific as being from Pittsburgh.
Olive´s last [type] ..The Ramblings of an 18-Year-Old Girl
A-bax,
I was a composer and pianist for a while, and I can tell you that great performers of classical music are artists. They don’t need to compose to exhibit artistry. If he wanted her to be impressed with his skills, he would have asked her to listen to the music. Chicks definitely are attracted to performers. He doesn’t say that though. He says, listen to ME, not the music.
@ Susan,
Fantastic post!
“Someone needs to break the standoff, waiting to see who will blink first. There are a LOT of great relationships that are never happening because no one took a risk up front. It’s such a waste, and that’s such a high opportunity cost!”
Yes, agree with this…everyone is SO scared these days…
We should just go for it and see what happens.
As they say, fortune favours the bold.
JT´s last [type] ..Appreciating female beauty
“I’d say a guy is responsible for not messing up a woman’s orgasm by not ejaculating prematurely for example, but he can’t MAKE her come.”
If that were the case then a woman would come, or not come, respectively, with every man equally. There are definetly skill sets for the guys to learn in this area.
FemEx,
Do you just lie still and quiet during sex and hope your husband studied the manual we’re all sent at puberty?
Oops, just realized Brendan made the point a couple of hours ago about the DLV for a male of going first. Cosigned, obviously.
I think women should consider this good news. You have some control, some way of potentially getting the outcome you want. So do something! Isn’t that better than constantly wondering if your phone is going to ping, or if you inadvertently put it on silent? I feel like so many people are wasting so much time. Love is hard to find in this world – we should maximize every opportunity we have to find it.
The old passive ways won’t work any more. Women need to signal attraction, initiate conversation, and reinforce their interest. The women who do this are more likely to get what they want. It occurs to me that sluts do this – and they usually get what they want. They go after the guys they want – true, they’re asking for less, but still.
He was very religious at one time – in fact, I think he was planning to be a minister. I think Jennifer is still an active Christian, so it’s not surprising his concepts are compatible with that.
Exactly. It has come to feel like a rather stubborn and adversarial standoff. I’m telling women how to make a guy feel fabulous, and if they have feelings for a guy, why wouldn’t they want to do that? True, they might get rejected, but they’re not getting what they want anyway! There’s little downside and a lot of upside! We talk sometimes about how great guys get snapped up early for marriage – it’s because women identify them and go for it. A smart woman isn’t going to leave it to chance and demand that the man take all the risk. She’s going to be left without a partner.
@Gabriel
Good to see you, and that’s a great comment.
Re emasculating your partner in public, that is a terrible thing to witness. My husband and I have decided in the past never to see a couple socially again after that’s occurred. Even a one-off remark can be jarring, but I’ve also witnessed some “Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolfe?” level snapping, and it can bring an evening to a halt as everyone scrambles to get away.
That’s more TAKE mentality. What a sad day when we have to assign responsibility for orgasms. GIVE your partner the best orgasm you can, and if you’re with someone capable of emotional intimacy and love they’ll give back 110%.
@A-Bax
I wrote a post on Guitar Game:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/05/27/relationshipstrategies/guitar-game/
Powerful stuff!
Yeah, Adam in the book was a classically trained pianist, looking forward to world fame on the classical concert circuit.
@J, I think that is a good model. I tend to not be a “leader” type, but I’m in control of myself. I get things done and loathe micromanagement. I’m capable and smart, so I don’t need any leading in the day-to-day stuff.
@Ted D, I still don’t quite understand what it is that you have to lead with your SO. Do you have to decide when to wash the dishes, who does the laundry, and what time to go to bed? Do you have to act like you’re in charge of everything?
But on big decisions on important stuff, I can see the need for leadership and negotiation.
@Susan, I notice a common dynamic among females is dissing on your man to gain points with the female group. Sometimes other guys will do this, too.
A few months ago my husband got back in touch with a childhood friend. This guy tried really hard to get me to trashtalk my husband, and I refused. I also told my husband that his friend was toxic and we shouldn’t socialize with him. He was already unhappy with the dynamic between them, so that was just more to add to the pile.
“Women are different and that’s why HE is responsible for her orgasm as well as his.”
“That’s more TAKE mentality. ”
No its not. Its biology. There was a series of tit for tat comments here about who does the “fucking”. Its men.
“What a sad day when we have to assign responsibility for orgasms. ”
I agree its sad.
“GIVE your partner the best orgasm you can”
I cannot biologically give a man an orgasm during p in v sexual intercourse, but he can give me one.
“and if you’re with someone capable of emotional intimacy and love they’ll give back 110%.”
My emotional, loving and intimate partner does that for me and I for him. But I’m under no illusion that I can give him an orgasm during p-in-v sex.
Manual or oral is a different matter. But p-in-v is his department in which to shine.
FemEx,
I feel sorry for your husband. I’ve never heard a more entitled understanding of sex than that.
@Hope
I tend to not be a “leader” type, but I’m in control of myself. I get things done and loathe micromanagement.
Cosigned.
Jesus, how could I physically “give” my husband an orgasm during p-in-v? He’s already hard. He already knows how to move in such a way to get himself off. I’m the receiver and he’s the giver in that instance. Oral and manual stimulation are different, but during p-in-v that’s the biological ergonomics of it.
Jesus! Can’t women sit back, relax and enjoy a good, simple fuck from their husbands even without worrying about whether or not he’s getting his? He’s getting his. I guarantee that.
Like I said, I pity your husband.
@ Susan
“I’m telling women how to make a guy feel fabulous, and if they have feelings for a guy, why wouldn’t they want to do that? True, they might get rejected, but they’re not getting what they want anyway! There’s little downside and a lot of upside!”
It tells you a lot about any individual girl how she reacts to this. If her first reaction to being told that the key to a great relationship is to demonstrate all this respect for a guy, that’s great. If her first reaction is less favorable… well, don’t think I need to spell that one out. I’ve found a social group in my new town with a good mix of both, and you can see the difference not just when they’re together, but when they’re apart, as well.
Even with girls receptive to the idea, it’s amazing how many of them don’t actually have much of a clue about the specifics of showing a man this respect. No one taught them. Heck, a few years ago I would have been at a loss to describe it – I hadn’t ever thought about how a girl could show respect until one actually did.
@ Feminist Ex
HE is responsible for putting in his best efforts. YOU are responsible for the result. It’s YOUR body (that argument has to be good for something), and your job to communicate what you need to him effectively. You are correct that women’s orgasms are different – so I cannot fathom how you drew the conclusion that the party without firsthand experience of how it works is more responsible for it than the one with.
If you don’t put in your best efforts for your OWN pleasure, I’d say the most reasonable reaction would be to just give up, get his nut, and go to sleep. No reason he has to be your dancing monkey about it.
On a related note, there is a difference between how easy it is for a guy to get off, and what really good sex is like. I’m obviously not privy to the details of your sex life, but hopefully discounting his orgasm as being easy hasn’t convinced you (or anyone reading statements like yours) that chicks get a free pass in the bedroom, either.
That attitude is very reflective of current SMP here. Women are expected to pleasure men sexually rather than the other way around. Women are expected to primp and doll themselves up, thrust out their breasts and asses and basically parade around like a male peacock in order to attract men and then get down on their knees and pleasure them, as if females were meant to be givers rather than receivers.
The vagina receives. Got that? It RECEIVES. There is no work for the vagina to do during p-in-v. In fact, the more stress put on it, mentally or otherwise, can cause the woman and her body to become tense and unable to achieve orgasm.
This is simple biology and the current SMP with women displaying their feathers and then trying to out-do one another in skill and technique is a reverse of the natural order.
That attitude is very reflective of current SMP here. Women are expected to pleasure men sexually rather than the other way around.
I would things would be mutual.
The vagina receives. Got that? It RECEIVES. There is no work for the vagina to do during p-in-v.
Right, but you are more than your vagina, no?
@ Feminist Ex
Your last comment posted after I started writing my first one. I’m willing to offer up some practical advice. I’ll try to keep this as non-pornographic as possible while still being useful, but if I cross a line, I won’t be offended if Susan deletes this.
“Jesus, how could I physically “give” my husband an orgasm during p-in-v? He’s already hard. He already knows how to move in such a way to get himself off. I’m the receiver and he’s the giver in that instance.”
Picture the woman-on-top position; that’s best for this, for starters. That’s definitely p-in-v sex. Imagine telling him to sit perfectly still. Start by moving your hips back and forth – purely horizontal motion, to start with, and you can even grind a bit for your own benefit here. Leaning forward is easiest; put your hands on his chest, shoulders, stomach, and arms. Explore a bit. Leaning back works too, if you can keep your balance. Once you’ve got that figured out, try moving up and down. After you’ve mastered that, get creative. The whole time, he’s keeping his hips still (if he can).
See? You give him an orgasm even in p-in-v sex. As for who is doing whom, that seems a gray area here, penetration or no.
Similar principles apply for man-on-top. Hip movements. Doing things with your arms. Making noises. That sort of thing.
“Jesus! Can’t women sit back, relax and enjoy a good, simple fuck from their husbands even without worrying about whether or not he’s getting his? He’s getting his. I guarantee that.”
Allow me to rephrase a bit…
“Jesus! Can’t a man just bend her over, relax and enjoy a good, simple quickie from his wife without even worrying about whether or not she’s getting hers?”
Very few people are blessed with magic genitals that make everything perfect. Even if they are, they can still improve by assuming otherwise.
>> “I think it’s fine to treat your woman like she’s a princess, as long as you do it from the me of “prince.” If she’s princess and you’re the pauper, then she loses respect for you. Pedestalize her, but get yourself up on the pedestal with her.”
This is spot on. Personality-wise, my boyfriend is a total beta softie (and I mean that in the most affectionate way possible). He pedestalizes me, but I pedestalize him as well, so it all works out. We’re crazy about each other.
One thing I’ve noticed is that although I prefer to date guys with very “beta” personalities, I could never bring myself to feel attraction for/date guys who were “beta orbiting” me. There’s nothing wrong with treating somebody with adoration and respect, but these things need to be earned first.
“Jesus! Can’t a man just bend her over, relax and enjoy a good, simple quickie from his wife without even worrying about whether or not she’s getting hers?”
Considering that he’ll get his regardless, no.
I know my man will always get his regardless, that’s why I don’t worry about it. If I didn’t know this, then I’d worry.
Ah. Magic genitals then.
Not sure if trolling, or just failing to listen to a couple of actual menfolk with no emotional investment in hiding any uncomfortable truths….
@Feminist Ex
“Jesus! Can’t women sit back, relax and enjoy a good, simple fuck from their husbands even without worrying about whether or not he’s getting his? He’s getting his. I guarantee that.”
A greater part of sexual excitement during sex, for both men and women, is the knowledge that your lover is pleasured by your actions. Sure, men can hammer out the sex and damn the details. It’s just not anywhere near as satisfying as knowing that she’s into it – that she wants it and wants you. It’s the same for women. She’ll become more excited as he responds positively to her actions. Good sex is more than the just a mechanical act that stimulates nerves.
Also. . .
“The more stress put on it, mentally or otherwise, can cause the woman and her body to become tense and unable to achieve orgasm.”
I think you mean “uncomfortable,” instead of the chosen “tense.” Muscle tension usually increases before orgasm.
This statement blows my mind. What do you do during sex, sit back and watch?
Olive´s last [type] ..The Ramblings of an 18-Year-Old Girl
@FemEx
“I know my man will always get his regardless, that’s why I don’t worry about it. If I didn’t know this, then I’d worry.”
I don’t mean to be rude, but you’re so insistent and crude with this. He may be “getting his,” but I doubt the quality is what’s bringing him back.
I agree with you here Charm. This post was a little too mushy for my tastes, but Susan definitely hit the nail on the head.
I guess. I’m more in favor of egalitarian relationships, but that’s my personal opinion. I think people should conduct their relationships however they see fit. If it works for you, do it.
I agree with this (See, I still love you Jesus Mahoney). Pedestalizing a woman, without expecting respect in return, evokes nothing but pity. That is not good.
“A greater part of sexual excitement during sex, for both men and women, is the knowledge that your lover is pleasured by your actions. Sure, men can hammer out the sex and damn the details. ”
“Hammer out”?! Interesting choice of words. Did anyone see the video I posted? There are skill sets for men to learn. Womens’s skill sets are different. I don’t neglect those.
@ Charm # 14
Re: cock worship
Does this extend (pun) to “Children of a Lesser God”?
BTW THE TITLE OF THE ARTICLE SUGGESTS IT DOES NOT REF #124
@FemEx
“‘Hammer out’?! Interesting choice of words.”
Thanks!
“There are skill sets for men to learn. Womens’s skill sets are different. I don’t neglect those.”
Wow. You’re pillow-talk must be amazing.
@ FeministEx
100% agree on your first post.
I’m naturally very “feminine”, i.e. a girly girl, when I (rarely) fall in love, I do so very much and love giving back rubs and all that. But I rarely do it. I need to a) be absolutely in love and b) feel like he’s worth it and gives me the same treatment.
There is no way I can treat him like a king if I’m not the queen. And what surprises me is that many guys want that kind of affection, asks for it and can even want the “girlfriend treatment” at a stage when we are not a couple. I have even been told by a guy that he has feelings for me, but I didn’t express enough affection and he was clearly looking for me to give him 100% of myself. Once you’ve gone exclusive to me, we can talk about that.
It is also well known that attention from a beautiful woman increases a man’s self esteem, they base a lot of their status on being able to get a hot girl and for her to worship him, and I refuse to take part in that if he’s got as much as an eye for other women. I feel like it doesn’t take much to tip that strong confidence over to cockiness or arrogance. And once a guy has gone full of himself, it is over. Like most women, I am attracted to confident men (a highly masculine man is the best match for my highly feminine self to give a great sexual polarity), but he’s supposed to want my love because I see the greatness in him, not because he’s the king of the world.
Framboise, yeah, no use giving a man your best treatment if he’s not giving you the same. Til then, “neutral nice” is the best policy.
@ Framboise
“There is no way I can treat him like a king if I’m not the queen. And what surprises me is that many guys want that kind of affection, asks for it and can even want the “girlfriend treatment” at a stage when we are not a couple.”
Rightly or wrongly, most of us menfolk assume that whatever we’re getting from the girl early on is basically what we’re going to be getting for the duration of the relationship (personally, I think that’s correct more often than not, but there are exceptions for certain behaviors). A lot of girls aren’t big into the whole “building him up” thing at all, so naturally men look for this in potential girlfriends. Why not try to give him a sample instead? Give him the affectionate girlfriend experience, but hold back on the sex until you’re committed.
“It is also well known that attention from a beautiful woman increases a man’s self esteem… I feel like it doesn’t take much to tip that strong confidence over to cockiness or arrogance.”
How about reading the entire comment here:
http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2011/06/02/why-women-are-afraid-to-pump-up-mens-egos/
Best I can tell you is that what reaction you get, and what it means, depends on the guy. A lot of us are faking confidence in order to find fabulous feminine women like (hopefully) yourself. Or faking outright douchebaggery for the same reason. Can’t blame us, it works, and is the surest and most readily apparent cure for Nice Guy Loneliness if you can’t find Game. If he feels like king of the world, that’s a good thing – real confidence is probably new to him.
On the other hand, if you’re dating an actual douchebag, you kinda deserve what you get.
Either way, your concerns about dating a real douchebag are legitimate, but the idea of carefully limiting how much you build him up (besides being a horrific double standard if you agree with the “the prince should treat me like a princess thing – do you want him carefully measuring out his commitment to you in order to minimize your entitlement?) is going to backfire spectacularly if you’re dating a decent beta who is faking some or all of the confidence. He’s going to see you (correctly, or at least justifiably) as emotionally closed off, and as giving him only enough to make sure you get what you want out of him, rather than giving of your whole self. That’s a transaction little different from prostitution or a memorable hoookup, not a relationship, and his opinion of you when it’s over will match.
Susan
I think this post is exactly right in the sense that if a good long term outcome is going to happen, in this SMP, this is most likely how it would happen. By a naturally decent, well intentioned young man being inspired towards alpha-attractiveness by the right kind of encouragement from a smart, reasonably hot young woman.
The problem is, this path is fairly risky for the smart young woman because making him into more of an alpha may well just generate a lot of increased competition. The guy might appreciate and cherish and bond to her because of what she is doing. A generation or so ago, he almost certainly would have. Today, less so. But if a woman is going to get a alpha-enough nice guy for the long term, this approach is imho definitely the best bet.
But the smart young woman should NOT have to be the one taking on this job and this risk alone. Society as a whole ought to be working at alpha-ing up young men in general, in realistic ways. But alas, that approach is counter-intuitive for a society like ours. Every impulse nowadays is try to make the smallest percentage of young men appear worthy in the eyes of its young women. It is the recrudesence of deep seated hind-brain instincts – that only a few males – the survivors against long odds – should do the breeding work. Everytime a new hurdle is created for young men, that mindset feels contentment. But the math does not work if monogamy is the goal.
@ Odds
That link was great. My exact thoughts.
“The reason that women resist and reject advice to flatter men is basically an issue of power. You wouldn’t know it from reading manosphere sites, but men, especially if white and educated, get the majority of perks in the world. They get the best jobs. ”
Well, these are the types of men I am dating. Age range 25-30 (I’m 21), European, business school grads (either ambitious or lazy), from wealthy families, even aristocracy at times (it sounds like I’m hunting for this in particular, not really, most of the men I grew up around are these). Some of them with a behavior which I cannot interpret whether is genuinely confident or fake cockiness. All I know is it’s not shy.
I was seeing this guy, and had this situation to the extreme. He lived in another country, so didn’t see him much. I agree 100% holding off the sexual stuff is the best, but hey, I was young, and this will be my learning lesson. We slept together several times, and the constant passion was so to speak the glue. He was all those things I mentioned above, and it doesn’t matter if I have the same things or the same cash – guys don’t care about that. But I had the strong advantage of being way more attractive than him physically (friends who saw his photo pointed it out). On top of it I was foreign, blonde, taller than him. I was insanely attracted though, but it was a strange scenario. We’d have great sex, but after we’d finish, I’d look over at him with his cigarette and think “don’t you be so fucking smug”. He didn’t have to say or do anything to make me think that, I just did. It was a battle of the me-s. I don’t know if he actually had the upper hand or not. If I cut out contact he would get desperate and clingy. But when I was there, it was all good. Completely chill. He’d be nervous around me too, when we hadn’t met in a while. He’d be so soft and sucking up to me and wanting us to appear similar that I got a tender spot for him. But never enough to actually compliment him. I’m shy around men I like, but I take out the passion in bed – it’s the one place where it’s acceptable for me to lose the ice front and be hot, it’s even preferable. Still, if he worried whether he pleased me in bed, I’d get that. I’d be so annoyed over my mixed feelings for his ego and ways, I’d not reply or talk to him a week after we’ve slept together. Whenever I found myself too attracted, I’d remind myself that he hasn’t actively gone out of his way to make me his gf. Still, the reason why this never went anywhere is probably my fault as well. I could never portion out my affection correctly in fear of losing my pride or putting myself on the line, so I ended up being one of those “hot and cold” women, whom men find a bit bonkers. But he is after the male equivalent to that – the polarity for my feminine side.
Sorry rant. I’ve been reading some literature on male/female polarity and what it takes to open up to love blabla and it all emphasizes how women must be genuinely affectionate and loving all the time. But when you’re drawn to typical masculine, secure men I feel like I’m just adding on ego to a man that is practically bursting with it. He might be insecure deep inside, but the fake confidence is bad enough. I don’t want to boost that one either.
GUYS.
let’s stop feeding the troll, k?
@Susan: We talk sometimes about how great guys get snapped up early for marriage – it’s because women identify them and go for it. A smart woman isn’t going to leave it to chance and demand that the man take all the risk. She’s going to be left without a partner.
I’m starting to wonder if, despite the change in age at marriage pushing 30, the women most likely to build strong marriages aren’t still doing it around 25 and snapping up the men most likely to in the process. With most women delaying do women marrying earlier get, on average, stronger mates in this one area?
Could the be the new assortive mating: those most able to build an LTR pair off early leaving the rest to pair off with slightly less likely to do so and so on…
My emotional, loving and intimate partner does that for me and I for him. But I’m under no illusion that I can give him an orgasm during p-in-v sex.
Oh gawd. You must suck in bed.
Listen, I am an expert at giving myself an orgasm with my hand – but sitting back and getting a hand job from Mrs. C is AWESOME and she’s had me hit the wall more than a few times.
And so it goes with PV sex – sometimes, most often, I drive, but there are times when she’s setting the pace, and I get to relax and enjoy.
It’s just sad that you think there’s nothing for the vagina “to do”. Spoken like someone who’s never experienced a vaginal orgasm before, let alone the body-rippling overlapping waves that resemble a grand-mal seizure.
Women, being biologically female, can orgasm from PV sex, whether I am in control, or she is. And control isn’t exactly binary, either – it goes back and forth in different degrees.
Odds, I read Haley’s Halo you linked to and she’s right. In my culture its 100 times worse because the culture, society, our families, our TV seriels, shit even our education tells us that’s what we’re supposed to do and expect nothing in return. Its changing ever so slowly in the urban centers. Ever. So. Slowly. I mean I could do build up your ego and do a bunch of stuff for you and you’d probably appreciate it, coming from your culture, but I wouldn’t get that appreciation from a majority of guys in a culture that expects those things, and with no reciprocation. Culture, environment and expectations count for a lot.
Sorry, but this is wacked. First of all, a woman can grip the penis hard, especially if she’s been doing Kegels. Secondly, the way a woman moves and positions her body can do a lot to give a man a better orgasm.
The notion that mentally stressing about your partner’s orgasm makes you unable to come is just lame. Many couples get one female orgasm in the bank before intercourse, which allows the woman to focus on her partner’s pleasure. Honestly, when a couple is in sync sexually, there is no stressing about orgasms. I literally haven’t had that worry in decades.
I’m not sure why you brought up intrasexual competition among women. How can women compete on sexual technique? I’ve never encountered that.
What is the strongest muscle in a mans body? His tongue. Properly used, it can lift a full grown woman right off the bed.
A few years ago the head of the US Dept of Education rejected a series of proposals that were put forward as a means of helping boys succeed better in schools – without having any effect on girls performance. The idea was said to be “divisive”.
In the recent “mancession” a federal official called it “progress” that more men were losing their jobs than women.
@ Susan
This is just to add on to your comment but kegels can be beneficial for men as well. But they have to be kept really low less than 50 a day.
@Michael of Charlotte (#84)
Cool! Let me know how things turn out for you, MoC
@ Gabriel (#71)
Very awesome comment regarding femininity! It reminded me of a quote from the tv show “Mad Men.” Bobbie Barrett, an older woman, is giving advice to Peggy, a copywriter just starting out in the 1960s and working her way up the ladder in a very sexist culture.
BB says, “You can’t be a man. Be a woman. It’s a powerful business, when done correctly.” This is so true. There is an undefinable difference in the air when you are around a very great lady. You stand taller. You want to be better. She makes you want to shine. And you are more than happy to exert the extra effort on her behalf. VERY powerful stuff, more than aping any man.
(BTW, this isn’t necessarily romantical. Around my mentor, I notice that both men and women behave this way.)
@ Fem Ex # 79
Re: men are responsible for their own orgasms.
Agreed; and I took full responsibility, starting around age 12 ( I was a late bloomer).
““This is how we are taught in Indian culture. I’m surprised to hear an American was taught the same thing. The impression is that Americans are brought up to be too selfish and not put family first.””
I’m not sure who said that, but the stereotype of Americans in Indian families is a pet peeve of mine. I have met plenty of Americans that have family values and integrity within relationships.
Sassy,
I love you, too. It’s just that occasionally I fantasize and imagine it’s Hope that I’m debating.
It’s understandable. I do the same thing with you by imagining Yohami instead. It’s something about those brooding musicians, I tell you.
Your man, and any other man, can “get his” during his morning shower if he wanted. And honestly, in your man’s case, at least the shower would be warm.
Sassy,
It’s cool. Yohami’s good people. Enjoy yourself.
Too many comments here, but read something about men being responsible for their own orgasm.
I like to please my partner and like to feel that I’ve helped him orgasm. It’s called oral sex. Oops..maybe I wasn’t supposed to share that with anyone.
A woman must be able to relax and receive in order to experience orgasm and female ejaculation.
http://www.jujumamablog.com/2011/12/24/discover-the-flow-of-your-puss-grand-finale/
FemEx,
Relax doesn’t mean lay there like a dead fish, you know. Dead fish aren’t relaxed; they’re dead.
Do women get to the mountain top thru routine sex just before falling into terminal relaxation, ie sleep? It is to laugh.
Meet them in their office after hours. Insist that she gets naked close enough to the big window that others across the cannon might be seeing something. Make it hard for her to keep her footing.
Shangrila.
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