Every adult woman understands the fierceness of female intrasexual competition, having weathered it one way or another. The unlucky ones have learned first-hand just how mean a mean girl can be. From a young age, we compete in subtle and covert ways, angling for power through a series of small but critical steps. Those steps usually involve elevating oneself at the expense of someone else. Competition among females in the social sphere is often extremely indirect, but the effects of exclusion can be brutal.
While we’re growing up, we’re eager to be the prettiest girl at the ball, or, failing that, to be in her entourage. Sometimes the best we can hope for is that we’ll avoid being an outcast, left to our own devices without being picked on. As we age, we remain ever vigilant, desperately wanting to avoid being “that woman” – the outsider.
These truths, rather obvious to me, are often denied by other women. We resist swallowing our own red pill about the vicious tactics we’re capable of employing under the right circumstances.
I’ve shared before how in my career, I have found women to be the most difficult bosses. The rules were unclear, the offenses were random, and the penalties inconsistent. I have found them to be the most likely to steal credit for a subordinate’s work. I have seen them play favorites with male subordinates, introducing a component of sexual tension that amounts to sexual harrassment, though it is rarely recognized as such. (The workplace is the one place where women appreciate obsequious behavior from males.) Most unfairly, I’ve seen women actively sabotage the promotions of deserving women who worked for them, apparently in the belief that their own success would be assured if they could keep the ranks of female superiors thin.
Even in my years as a stay at home mom, I found women to be unforgiving competitors. (If you’ve seen the movie Help, the dynamic among the Junior League types was not far off.) I’ve heard women (often with MBAs, JDs, or MDs) badmouth one another for contributing less-than-gourmet quality food to the annual teacher’s brunch or dry brownies to the annual bake sale. I’ve watched them secretly rejoice upon learning that someone else’s child failed to secure admission to the college of their choice. (At one Back to School Night, the Guidance Counselor advised senior parents to avoid cocktail parties at all costs.) It wasn’t the men acting mean and antisocial during the college application process – it was the moms. (Note: I was President of the Parents’ Association at my son’s school during his last two years. I’m still recovering.)
I doubt any of this will surprise female readers, though it may depress them. Selena Rezvani, author of a book about women leaders, writes in Mean Girls at Work in the Washington Post about the problem.
While workplace studies show women are routinely underestimated compared to men, we don’t give much credence to the fact that women hampering other women is also to blame.
In nearly every leadership talk I give, whether to the women’s network of a Fortune 500 company or to incoming female MBA students, I actively steer away from this topic.
But even if I don’t bring this issue up in a women’s forum, someone will invariably—and I mean always—raise her hand and ask me the same question. “What about women who thwart other women’s success?”
It’s time these reports from the trenches get their due.
Rezvani offers several possible explanations for this rather “unbecoming” behavior:
1. Catty media portrayals
2. Sexism amnesia
Women get to the top and forget what it was like to be young and struggling.
3. Sink or swim sadism
“I was treated like dirt on my way up, so you should be too.”
4. Self-hatred
Rezvani states, “In their book Mean Girls, Meaner Women, coauthors Drs. Erika Holiday and Joan Rosenberg note, ‘…Self-hatred is the key link between girls’ early hurtful behavior toward each other and women who suppress other women. A woman with a strong sense of self and high self esteem is much less likely to hurt others.’ The authors explain that women are socialized from an early age to avert, rather than express anger, and to feel that any expression of anger whatsoever is wrong. Perhaps this is how the wires get crossed, making appropriate anger morph into backdoor, gossipy, passive-aggressive behavior.”
5. Bitchy mothers
Mothers are the figures who have greater influence in the transference of discriminatory behavior, and thus the opportunity to pass on more fair-minded behavior as well.
6. Having it all, doing it all
This is Rezvani’s own theory.
If there’s one observation I make about many professional women today—particularly working moms—it’s that they’re “doing it all,” burdened with too many demands to count and moving through life at breakneck speed. Kate Sayre and Michael J. Silverstein, coauthors of the book Women Want More , found that women’s happiness, when correlated to age, is V-shaped. Meaning, women are happiest between the ages of 18 and 25 and then again after age 50 when, for many, these converging life demands are less pronounced.
There isn’t any, and there actually never was. Feminism, the most prominent “sisterhood” of our age, is fractured, characterized by infighting and petty grievances, along with a hatred of “other.” Most notably, that means men, but there’s plenty of vitriol for women who question or disagree.
Recently I was asked to participate in a small group of Wharton women alums, charged with the task of rethinking the mission of the Wharton Women’s group, and exploring what kinds of programs and services might be of most interest. At one point, the moderator asked what we thought of a mentoring program, where older, successful women might meet regularly with recent graduates. I said I thought that was a great idea, since relations between women in the workplace are so often strained and unproductive. At first, no one else in the group spoke. The moderator asked if others also perceived that. One woman, the head of a profitable hedge fund, assured the group that she was incredibly generous and kind with her female employees. As she had been curt and abrupt with us, I didn’t give her report much credit.
Finally, the youngest woman present spoke. After being assured that her remarks would not be attributed to her, she confessed that women had actively derailed her success in some instances, and were very impersonal and businesslike at her current firm. She admitted that she has had two wonderful mentors, both male, and that women in each organization actively disapproved of and discouraged these relationships, although they had no interest in mentoring themselves. By the end of the meeting, everyone but the hedge fund guru had admitted to having similar experiences.
I do agree with Rezvani that real life reports from the trenches need to be taken seriously. What’s more, each and every woman should acknowledge that this mode of behavior is endemic to female nature. It’s an uncomfortable truth, but only by acknowledging it can we call out offenders and reward more productive ways of competing.
In the meantime, here’s my advice for dealing with women in the workplace:
This is an ugly truth. The most difficult people in a man’s world are the women.
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I don’t doubt it for a minute.
They also vote heavily Democratic.
“If you water them, maybe they will grow” – Girls can be so terribly mean.”
This is more than mean — I think this is evil. Imagine her rising to the top of the corporate world, stepping on everyone on the way without remorse.
That’s not off topic, that’s a wonderful tidbit that gives me hope!
Well baseball makes and breaks friendships in my culture so is not that remarkable still…RUGE RUGE EL LEON!!! :d
“Imagine her rising to the top of the corporate world, stepping on everyone on the way without remorse”…the odds are that someone this vicious is going to destroy herself before reaching the top of anything. She will pick on the wrong person, or the turnover in her group will be so high that she’ll fail to achieve results, or she will at some point report to someone astute enough to figure her out. But she can make a lot of people miserable on the way to her eventual meltdown.
As an aside, I think the organizational culture in “nonprofits” is often more toxic than that in for-profit corporations. I’ve heard several credible stories about “nonprofit” executives (male, in the cases I’ve heard about) yelling at employees, throwing things, demanding entirely inappropriate help with chores having nothing to do with the job, etc.
“I regularly meet women who I *know* with total certainty, were the mean queen bees as teenagers. They never lose the affect.”
It’s a little bit scary how our status all through school sticks with us for life. I was never a queen bee – I was often friends with the queen bee and generally well liked but also a git of a geek and not someone who stood out. And I think for the rest of my life I will be skeptical of a woman who appears to have been the queen bee at school when she was younger.
She usually won this status by having jeans of certain labels, being overly confident with obnoxious parents to match and being “ahead of the crowd” somehow. The queen bee at school when I was a kid was the first one to wear a G-string. It was black and had gold writing in front which said “you animal”. We were 10.
Perhaps judgmental, but the queen bee rarely becomes the queen bee for good reasons. Our queen bee appeared to be nice but spread nasty rumours and pointed out physical flaws among the girls, such as “she wears loose pants because her thighs are fat”. I might add that she kept this up until she was about 18.
Susan,
I didn’t take your Junior League reference as an offense, it has come to my attention that some Junior League departments in the US have a certain reputation (or that the women do). A bit of googling gave some interesting results.
I think there might be a link between these types of work, fundraising, donations etc and vicious women. I came to think of it when I hung out with an (American) friend last summer, a single 40 year old from LA. She is a doctor, a buddhist, gives money to charity and talks a lot about karma. Yet she is one of the most toxic people I know. She is insanely jealous and subtly tries to spoil any chance I have with a man, gives me a bad rep among her friends and deliberately tries to make all other women appear as sluts. One way of doing this is to “find girls” for her male friends. She’ll take the guys out, point out a girl and go “I’ll chat her up for you, I’ll bet she goes home with you tonight”. The point of this game is that the men will see her as helpful, not competitive and a contrast to all the “sluts” around. Whereas I know she is actually incredible insecure. One guy pointed this out behind her back, and I was surprised to see men recognized it.
She is Asian, I am blonde, she had a thing for a guy who openly said he preferred blondes, and (in front of me) she said, “well let me tell you, once you’ve tried Asians, you’ll forget about blondes”. She won’t be directly rude, she’ll work it all in somehow. She’ll introduce me to men and add I’m “really shy”, she’ll tell me I’m hopeless in conversation and she’ll write off any argument I have saying I’m “so young”. And all this while preaching how you must do good to get good back in your life.
I know a Junior League member from LA who is horrid as well. IMO, the more a woman advertises her social work or charitable donations, the worse she is. If she was genuinely kind she wouldn’t need to talk about it.
Or maybe it’s just women from LA! I have had that suspicion too.
@ Cheerful
I assume you mena the movie “The Help”, and not the 1964 Beatle’s films.
I haven’t got a lot to offer and the piece was again comprehensive. Our small community doesn’t lend itself muc to the high stakes stuff you describe. It is sad that ass kissing works so well; I’ve never said this to my son, but I’ve often thought “Son, I wish it weren’t this way, but the world belongs to the asskissers, at least ’til you’re the one it’s done to, so if you want to rise to the top, get used to the flavor.” But I just can’t to it. BTW the time honored “sleeping with the boss” is a category of ass kissing and although the object and the actor are reversed in the premises the method and ultimate goal remain the same.
I haven’t seen the intra-office girl-on-girl (just writing that got me going) but got plenty of it in another context. The Stay at Homes versus the Moms Who Work. Women hear implied criticis in another woman’s choices, and you could clean a car engine with the acid that got generated on this one. SUBTEXT: Workers were heartless automatons who treated their chidren the way crocodiles do, and the stay at homes were lazy slatternly shiftless bon bon eating soap opera watching morons. “I’m working” meant “you are pig, “I’m staying at home” meant your children will grow up to be psychopaths.
What happened after she was 18?
@ Ramble
I don’t know. I’m not saying she grew up, I just haven’t seen her since. According to photos, she hangs out with the same people.
FYI, I might have a different time-perspective, as I’m 21, I think of 18 as “adult”. After all, it’s only three years ago…
BTW not all Jr. League’s were as depicited in “The Help.” The one here had a great Thrft store; my wife worked there. The stuff was good, and the leaguers never condescended to anyone. I was there with my wife and there were people shopping there who didn’t need to which kinda’ pissed me off, but the stuff was that good. I’m not sure we even have one now; the women who used to belong to that organization are all working.
@ Anna @ 156,
What a horrible woman you describe! I hope you are keeping your distance from her…
@ Susan,
4. If you have a female boss, kiss her ass and have her back at all times. If you’re lucky, she’ll feel neutral about you.
In my humble opinion, not worth it. If they are trouble from the start, they will be trouble no matter how much you cowtow to them.
Best to just get on with your work and keep them at an arm’s length.
@Hope (#79)
“Lately I’ve been trying to project more of a loving attitude toward other people, but it’s really difficult. I do genuinely like the people I work with, but I don’t have much in common with them.”
Hope, this is so admirable and inspiring. I need to take a page out of your book for the people who can be “difficult” and cultivate your attitude instead. Thanks so much
@Charm (#82)
“I know my strengths, and I play to them.”
+1
Well said. Most people focus on “turning weakness into strength” but you can exponentially improve your results by focusing on making your strengths stand out.
@Butterfly Flower (#95)
*hugs* to you BF
I’m so sorry this has been your experience. It must feel scary and awful to not feel like you can trust them.
Even your mom’s friends, or are they difficult as well?
There are some really good people out there, they’re just rare and hard to find sometimes. I would definitely ignore the people who want to put you down and make you feel bad. Don’t give them a second of your time– just get away as fast as you can. GL!
Re: girl on girl
Women versus women in the workplace is probably an area not explored to some extent for reasons of political correctness. I’d posit though that, let’s face it, the work place is what it is. Corporation, law firm, bank, hospital-people trying to get ahead have a vibe. that vibe is often “I’m not just going to get ahead-I’m going to leave you behind and I want ot make sure you know it.” That hasn’t changed since humans organized into something beyond bands of hunter-gatherers. And the idea that you can “just do your job”-well, that’s a nice conceit, see how it works for you.
I heard a song when I was 14 that had a line I didn’t appreciate at the time. It’s the psychedelic (maybe THE MOST psychedelic) song “Eight Miles High” by the The Byrds. Goes like this:
nowhere is there warmth to be found
among those afraid of losing their ground
Those of you about to enter the Great American Upper Middle Class Prosperity Chase might want to spend a minute memorizing those lines. I have a very strong suspicion you will have many opportunities to revisit them through the years, as did I.
@Ramble (#148)
Ugh! What about,
“There’s the door, you can show yourselves out.”
@PV (#152)
Ugh. That is truly despicable behavior from the mean girl!
She should genuinely fear her karma. What goes around comes back around eventually.
And it’s not like putting someone down is going to make her truly better, only not as “less than.” Perhaps Tina Fey put it best, “Calling someone fat is not going to make you any skinnier.”
I didn’t take your Junior League reference as an offense, it has come to my attention that some Junior League departments in the US have a certain reputation (or that the women do). A bit of googling gave some interesting results.
I think there might be a link between these types of work, fundraising, donations etc and vicious women
I found this out the hard way. Nearly all of my bad encounter with older women, I experienced on the NYC charity circuit. Unlike the older women, I was more of a naive do-gooder than a socialite. I wasn’t involved in charities for status, I genuinely wanted to make the world a better place. The scary thing is, I don’t think any of these women could even comprehend my intentions. Apparently I was trying to be a socialite, earn credentials for a prestigious university application, or even credentials for a beauty pageant. Wanting to help people in need? Psh, that’s preposterous.
I’ve found a couple of decent charities and organizations; however, you’d think philanthropy would be the last place you’d encounter “Mean Girls” behavior.
ADDENDUM RE GREAT AMERICAN UPPER MIDDLE CLASS PROSPERITY CHASE
It’s the most overused cliche; I’m embarassed to say the word. Ok let’s get it over with. Insecurity ( mass groans; Internet recieves immediate boost as hundreds of lurkers sign off). It just so happens that 98% of all human fuckups result from it; and intraoffice politics is no exception. Secure people are not aggressive. They are not back stabbers. Nearly all nasty human behaviors trace back to this (including genocide, serial murder, and cutting in line). What propels a lot of people, drives them, IS insecurity, so it is what got them there in the first place and few have the ego strength to keep it limited solely to the task where it has utility. You read about the athlete who is so afraid to lose he trains and trains, but his insecurity doesn’t bleed out into other areas. Rare. Insecure people, those afraid of losing their ground, will give no warmth, and that is who were are describing. BTW the only male mentors of young women I’ve seen had the “daddy/Casanova” complex-couldn’t decide if the wanted to adopt them, or fuck them. The animus behind the mentoring was never enitirely pure IME.
Well, it was not my house, nor was it my sister, so, it was not my place to say. And, personally, I did not have a problem with her being really low class. She is now giving us a better idea as to who she really is.
Great post Susan!!
I am sure there are a multitude of factors that can increase or increase the amount and intensity of the stuff you describe but there to main causes of this that make the others insignificant by comparison.
The first is that this is genetically hardwired female competetive strategies. Mostly used in female intrasexual competition but also against males. You can`t really change the tendency towards this type of behavior, it will always be there, you can only change the amount and intensity of it.
THe second reason is kind of a combination of two whose effect become largely the same. The kind of behaviors you describe are very indirect and covert and this makes them difficult to see and so hard to regulate and sanction with societal norms. When this is combined with the fact that people have refuse to talk openly and thoroughly about these types of behaviors the result is that they are massively increased because it becomes a sort of moral free ground where there is little clear morality and little social pressure to abstain from doing such things. Insulting people straight to their face leads to instant payback from the other person and gets you into trouble with others and you more easily see yourself that you did something wrong than if you try to make the person look bad in the eyes of others. You will more easily get away with starting a rumor or freezing someone out than you will by stealing an object or punching someone. You will also more easily be able to rationalize your actions and motives as pure when few are talking about these kinds of actions and there are unclear moral guidelines and little social sanctions against them.
THe result of the hidden nature of indirect (female) tactics and the lack of debate about them is that bad and immoral behavior increases massively in this area. In a sense female competetivenes is uncivilized and almost in a hobbesean state of nature because it is not clearly understood and discussed in the open and given fair norms for how to perform.
A lot of the same can be said of female behavior in terms of dating and relationships. BEcause what they have actually been doing have been so little understood they are not regulated properly and so bad behavior reaches its maximum potential. It is only throug open discussion that leads to clear understanding which in term can lead to reasonable norms and sanctions (shaming) that behavior improves. A fair amount of the same can be said for male behavior in the sexual marketplace and relationships, especially the worst beta males as they often follow tactics that are highly dishonest when examined closely. Still female behavior in these areas has been the most hidden and indirect, have been very well rationalized by well excercised hamsters and have been the least understood and has been held above any criticism for the last 40 years so it is more the case for women that their REAL behaviors and motives have in a sense not been regulated by society. I think a lot of the unease I sense about female behavior amongst women in the manosphere comes exactly from this. There are a lot of bad stuff getting done and those who do it get away with it again and again and other women feel a bit helpless against it because they can`t so easily call upon clear rules and norms to their defence.
Amongst other contributing factors I do think self esteem and emotional health is a big one but I think it is mostly a matter of feeling good in a female specific way (I am a likable person, a GOOD girl, I am lovable etc.) rather than just workplace competitive success self esteem (which is more male in nature). I think when women lash out in catty ways it is because their FEMALE self esteem and FEMALE sense of security is endangered. I do think it works the other way around as well so that not feeling successful in a competitive way leads to lashing out in catty ways but I don`t think the main reason lies there.
Entirely unrelated, I came across the expression female sexual arms race today and found it funny, insightful and very relevant to this site. It was used by Rollo in reference to how women dress more slutty and do more and more slutty things to outcompete each other.
*hugs* to you BF
I’m so sorry this has been your experience. It must feel scary and awful to not feel like you can trust them.
Even your mom’s friends, or are they difficult as well?
My mother has a group of close personal friends [many she's know since her 20's]. I don’t have any issues with her friends; however they’re a miniscule portion of middle-aged women.
Sadly, my mother puts up with BS from other middle-aged women; certainly more than I have to deal with. She married a non-Christian Asian man. She gave up her career to have children. She let her daughter [i.e. me] drop out of an elite university [note: I should probably get around to signing back up; or perhaps transferring].
These past few years, I’ve developed a new respect for my mother. Like myself, she’s timid & sensitive – yet she doesn’t let mean women get to her. I hope one I can be as emotionally strong as her.
I would definitely ignore the people who want to put you down and make you feel bad. Don’t give them a second of your time– just get away as fast as you can. GL!
Well, that’s the thing. They act nice at first. They pretend to care. They masquerade their awfulness long enough to have me fooled. Then they take advantage of me/bully me/try to sabotage me. & when I try to call these older women out on their behavior, they just act like nothing happened. Or even worse, they tell me I deserve to be treated badly. I’m a bad person for “x” reason [the reason is always nonsensical], so what they did to me was justified.
I have a deadly illness; I just don’t have the energy to play these games. Also, emotional stress triggers my RA flares. I think, for my physical health, it’s best to keep to myself – at least when it comes to older women.
@Anna
Wow. I know you’re not American, but I would have thought so based on that statement. The slogan would be funny if it wasn’t so creepy for a 10 yo.
@Munson
Love the Beatles film too, but I was indeed talking about The Help. We showed our kids Help when they were little, and my daughter, then around 4, became obsessed with Ringo for a couple of years. She remains the only “Ringo girl” I’ve ever known.
I totally relate to the working moms vs. SAHMs competition. I experienced it often when I was a SAHM. Once, at a dinner party, I said, “All moms work, one way or another.” This really pissed off another guest (female law partner), and she proceeded to argue aggressively that a SAHM doesn’t do any work that she didn’t do at night and on the weekends. I felt sorry for the host, and just smiled and nodded until the storm passed over. Yikes.
True story. Remember when people joined the DAR and those kinds of organizations? (My people didn’t, they were Irish maids.) My mom was always very active in something called Child Guidance. I’m sure they did good work, but they also played bridge and ate shrimp salad. That was America circa 1960.
@JT
You may be right. I can’t claim to have had stellar results with my approach.
@Munson
Great, great quote there. I’ve clipped it for the HUS collection!
@Munson
When I was reading about narcissism, I was struck how the primary non-genetic cause was “insecure childhood attachment.” I thought about that word – insecure – a lot. People who are insecure are those who are loosely tethered to fellow humans. Perhaps they grew up needing to look out for #1 to ensure their own survival. I feel some empathy, but unfortunately, it doesn’t make them any less damaging to others.
This is often the subtext, yes. I was fortunate that my male mentors were family men of excellent character and never crossed a line. I was friendly with their wives, in fact. It helped that I was engaged or married myself.
@Wudang
Great comment there, cosigned. The combination of PC norms directly resulting from feminism/AA for women and the subtextual nature of female communication has created a fairly toxic cocktail. Men can’t correct it, because much of it goes right over their heads – they don’t pick up on all the covert cues.
@Counsel (#170)
Clipped and saved for the “Wisdom file” as well.
My mentor told me that what separates “the cheap from the great” was how they treated others, especially those with much less power than them. She said that a truly great person (who is usually the best at what they do, and knows it) will be really nice to *everyone*. Especially the people low on the “totem pole.”
She said that people who never-quite-made-it will fawn and simper to those “above” them, and treat those “below” like dirt, or worse.
No matter what they do, these people will never reach the heights they seek.
Whether this is cause or effect, I cannot say for sure.
Or, needing some love that they tried to find from Mom (nope), Dad (nope), me (yup).
I forgot to ask:
Does anyone else think this “Mean Girls” phenomenon is regional?
I mean, I live in NYC – I don’t really have much of a choice, I have to interact with aggressive competitive businesswomen. Demure isn’t exactly a personality trait that thrives in this city.
Would a middle-aged businesswoman from say, Minneapolis, be less vicious?
Although; I know in Japan, middle-aged career women are often painted as vicious manhating shrews. So for all we know, it’s a worldwide phenomenon.
…I think I need to move out to the suburbs & have some kids. I’ll take the PTA and bored housewife gossip, over harpy over-botoxed cosmopolitan career gals.
Ramble,
It’s sort of sad that your GF couldn’t find other women to bond with. Female friendships really are valuable, and loner girls usually make excellent friends for other loner girls. For popular, girly-girl types, not so much. I hate the indirect, passive-aggressive stuff that girly types put out, and I share very few interests with them.
I think I need to move out to the suburbs & have some kids. I’ll take the PTA and bored housewife gossip, over harpy over-botoxed cosmopolitan career gals.
I hate to disapoint you, but forewarned is forearmed. IME, some of the world’s biggest bitchs are suburban PTA presidents, La Leche League Leaders, and babysitting co-op organizers.
J, she may very well have met other like minded girls since we broke up. But, in general, she was quite wary (weary?) of girls’ machinations.
I have been abroad so haven’t logged on here for a while- Im not often surprised by what I read on here but this latest essay really takes the biscuit.
Is this one big joke or genuine female-sourced misogyny? I just dunno anymore.
I have had a more varied career than most and have had many bosses and I currently line manage other ‘bosses’.
Have I dealt with some nightmare drama queen female bosses? Yes
Have I dealt with some nightmare male bosses? Yes
Have I dealt with outstanding managers and leaders of both genders? Yes
Who have been the most’ miscreant’ bosses? Males
Does this mean males are worse bosses than women? Nope, its just that there have been more male bosses than female ones in the fields of work I have been involved with in the last decade.
Is the article something of an embarrassment reducing the credibility of the blog? Yeah – I’d say so.
RE: Suburban Women
We have a suburban nouveau area called Eagle. I think of the females there as “Zimbabwe women”. In Zimbabwe, when the women go to market the put on their finest clothes, all their jewelry, even their best china if they can make it work. Well, women in Eagle do too. We went to a 3 year old’s birthday party and here they were all decked out like a cocktail function, evening attire, diamond necklaces, plunging necklines, diamond drop earrings, everything trending to gaudy under the circumstances. We’ve seen this several times. Reminded me of Major Toht in “Raiders of the Lost Ark”-”You Americans; always over dressing for the wrong occasions.”
RE: EVERBODY
My ass kissing remark was probably too cynical. I tend to turn the dial to “full green” every now and then.
I hate to disappoint you, but forewarned is forearmed. IME, some of the world’s biggest bitchs are suburban PTA presidents, La Leche League Leaders, and babysitting co-op organizers.
Well, I live in an Upper-Middle Class, somewhat suburban area of NYC. There’s not many housewives here; they tend to live in the New Jersey/Connecticut suburbs. So besides my mother’s friends, I don’t really interact with housewives.
Surely the television “Desperate Housewives” stereotypes aren’t true?
& I didn’t mean for my previous comments to sound so generalized. I know there’s many kind decent middle aged women who genuinely want to mentor the younger generations [for example, Mrs. Walsh]. I just don’t encounter these women in my neighborhood. It’s like searching for a Kangaroo in Alaska.
@ Butterfly Flower
Aren’t New Jersey and Connecticut very different areas? I think of Connecticut as where Charlotte York (Sex and the City) is from and New Jersey as…something else. The only name I associate with “Jersey” is …. Jersey Shore. Obviously I haven’t been and have no clue.
Susan@140
Thank you for your interest in my rather unsubstantive comment at 115 in which I said that I was shocked by the post because I had never experienced the horrible behavior described. You asked me some personal details so I will share that I am a partner in a 25 attorney firm in a provincial city in the northeast, and that I do not have a daughter. But I was a ten year old girl once!
I definitely witnessed and experienced hierarchical and bullying behavior as a kid. But it never seemed especially gendered, except that the boys tended to get a little more physical.
Upon reflection, I suspect that women who report that our sex is more inclined to petty viciousness (a) have internalized sexism and are subject to confirmation bias and/or (b) have socialized primarily in female groups, leading to the impression that certain behaviors are more particular to our sex. In fact, men can and do get into petty squabbles, engage in passive aggressive behavior, make cutting remarks, carry grudges, backstab people, spread rumors, etc. My father used to come home every night and complain about all of those things happening among his workplaces colleagues, who were all men back then. (On the positive side, while I think assholery knows no gender, most people are quite professional.)
I moved from suburban Florida to NYC. I would say that I encounter more motivated people here, but the girl-on-girl viciousness is unchanged.
@ Catherine:
What area of law do you practice? If it’s family law we could really use you around here.
Catherine,
You are of course 100% correct- men are every bit as catty as the girls. The pettiness of some of the men in my family and previous workplaces is hilarious.
Put these behaviours in a skirt and it makes someone a ‘bitch’.
I really couldn’t believe the tone of the article- its the sort of thing a 70s style british low level male manager would spout…
“them wimmin is more trouble than their worth!”
@Butterfly Flower,
I have encountered misogynist women on-line before but I have never come across a young women who professes such strong feelings of antipathy towards other women based on age and career status. I am not one of your NYC based career women, but I am in the northeast and I travel and work in NYC often. I simply can’t imagine what could trigger such a strong reaction in you.
What do you expect from these women that they are not delivering? Also, have you considered that you might be doing something that may triggering some hostility by them towards you? Such as making negative generalizations about women?
Aren’t New Jersey and Connecticut very different areas? I think of Connecticut as where Charlotte York (Sex and the City) is from and New Jersey as…something else. The only name I associate with “Jersey” is …. Jersey Shore. Obviously I haven’t been and have no clue.
Actually, New Jersey has some of the wealthiest suburbs in the country. & like the Connecticut suburbs, they’re relatively close to Manhattan [a few hours away] – close enough for businessmen to commute.
Munch–
When my kids were little I took them on a playdate to the park. One of the moms felt the occasion called for two carat (total weight) diamond earrings. Classsaaayyyy.
Catherine,
Im sure its already occurred to you but having tracked back some of the Butterflys extreme and ugly comments there seems to be the distinct whiff of the troll.
Its likely one of the guys here is venting their spleen whilst donning a virtual dress and high heels (or actual high heels in some cases….)
You might not want to waste your time on them is all….
@Saywhaat,
Sorry, I don’t do family law, thank the Lord. Couldn’t pay me enough. That there is blood sport. No, nice clean commercial disputes are more my line.
Well, I live in an Upper-Middle Class, somewhat suburban area ..
Me too. The women I’m speaking of are basically my neighbors, although I’ve seen the same behavior in less affluent women as well.
Surely the television “Desperate Housewives” stereotypes aren’t true?
IDK. I’ve been called many things in the course of my life, but “prime time soap watcher” isn’t one of them.
Seriously though, I’ve never seen the show.
@Jess
Does this mean you may depart, never to return?
Jess, you know, call me an idiot for not thinking of it myself, but it wouldn’t
Shock me if Butterfly is some dude trying to prove a point about how much women suck by adopting a female persona. Butterfly seems so over the top in her hostility. On the other hand, I believe that internalized misogyny by women exists and Butterfly could be a young woman with serious Mommy issues. It happens.
My mom was always very active in something called Child Guidance. I’m sure they did good work, but they also played bridge and ate shrimp salad. That was America circa 1960.
I join you in remembering those days. People in this corner of the net are so nostalgic for those days, but I actually don’t recall them as particiulary happy. Loads of women doing volunteer work, playing brigde and popping anti-depressants.
I don’t have time to read everything written here but…
What you describe about female bosses is what many men experience after several years into their relationships. Has it always been this way?
I have encountered misogynist women on-line before but I have never come across a young women who professes such strong feelings of antipathy towards other women based on age and career status. I am not one of your NYC based career women, but I am in the northeast and I travel and work in NYC often. I simply can’t imagine what could trigger such a strong reaction in you.
I’m not a misogynist, I don’t hate other women. However, I am afraid of older women.
& if you had read all my comments, you would have noticed that I described myself as a trusting [albeit ditzy] optimist. I assume all older women are good; but that just leads to me getting taken advantage of.
What do you expect from these women that they are not delivering? Also, have you considered that you might be doing something that may triggering some hostility by them towards you? Such as making negative generalizations about women?
Well, I expect these women to treat me with dignity. I don’t want to be bullied for reasons such as getting married young, or not pursuing a career.
I think these women are hostile to me, because I have a bubbly/saccharine/ditzy personality. I’m kinda a magnet for bitter people who want to wipe the smile off my face.
I wish I was sharp enough to notice these people, and not let them into my life…
Im sure its already occurred to you but having tracked back some of the Butterflys extreme and ugly comments there seems to be the distinct whiff of the troll.
I’m not a troll, and my comments weren’t ugly. I was just stating the truth for my life. I never said I hate all women. You misread my comments.
I’m sorry, I never meant to offend anyone. I realize the women in my neighborhood aren’t like the women in the entire country.
I’m pretty sure that Butterfly is who she says she is.
Catherine,
You may well be right (I kinda hope you are not though- otherwise I really feel for the girl- some real issues there)
Susan,
I would never wish to leave HUS and severe the special relationship between our countries!
You have mentioned before your thinking I am out to ‘undermine’ you but nothing could be further from the truth. Your blog is less hostile and extreme than the Roissy/Pandagon blogs so i prefer a more neutral backdrop to discussions and some of your posters are engaging. And on the issues I agree with you on I am always quick to say so- but on this occasion you have really have produced an essay that effectively self-lampoons more than any humble comment I could ever make.
“I have found women to be the most difficult bosses. The rules were unclear, the offenses were random, and the penalties inconsistent”
- Yeah, she was probably on her period……
@JM”I have a very easy time figuring out women unless I’m attracted to them. I wonder if there’s something about attraction that causes other mental faculties to operate normally, you know? Maybe love really is blind.”
I believe attraction does cloud your judgment. This is another reason why I think it’s best to wait to have sex. It’s easier to be objective before you sleep with someone, but someone can still hide their true personality for a long time.
@Olive
Yes, some social workers and therapists aren’t always the people they portray with their clients. I swear that my former boss at a mental health agency was a female sociopath. My ex-roommate (who is a therapist) also would tell people that they’ve gained a lot of weight to their face. I hope that she doesn’t get a client with an eating disorder. She could get in big trouble for saying comments like that.
Butterfly,
I am not offended, just confused. I can’t imagine these women could possibly be doing to make you afraid of them. Do you think they are going to rough you up if you get engaged or something? I don’t know what you mean when you say they are bullying you. I suspect they are impatient with you and that you are alienating them by crapping on their life paths.
Jess, you know, call me an idiot for not thinking of it myself, but it wouldn’t
Shock me if Butterfly is some dude trying to prove a point about how much women suck by adopting a female persona. Butterfly seems so over the top in her hostility. On the other hand, I believe that internalized misogyny by women exists and Butterfly could be a young woman with serious Mommy issues. It happens.
I’m a real woman [although I look 11; stupid half-asian babyface]. I don’t have Mommy issues, I’m close with my mother. I just don’t get along with the career women in my general area. Neither does my SAHM. I don’t know what’s so horrible and troll-ish about saying career women don’t always get along with non-career women. Um, ever hear of the mommy-wars?
I have close female friends, I know many wonderful women exist. I don’t think all women are awful. I don’t even think all career women are awful. I’m just weary of the ones who approach and try to befriend me. For some reason, that always seems to lead to no-good.
For years, I thought Häagen-Dazs was a city in Sweden that made ice cream [my fiance recently informed me it's not]; I’m the girl ditzy enough to get fooled repeatedly.
I think all my problems would be gone, if I was a less of a ditz
I can’t filter good people, from bad.
Anyway, I could send Mrs. Walsh a photo. Or maybe make my icon my photo, like Bellita, and Anna?
Butterfly, you had the same problem with nice-beta guys right?
I am not offended, just confused. I can’t imagine these women could possibly be doing to make you afraid of them. Do you think they are going to rough you up if you get engaged or something? I don’t know what you mean when you say they are bullying you. I suspect they are impatient with you and that you are alienating them by crapping on their life paths.
I am engaged . They don’t rough me up, they just treat me like a pariah. “You’re too young, you’ll just falling out of love and end up getting divorced” “Why are you getting married now? Pursue a career, you’re better off getting married in your 30′s.” “Why did your boyfriend propose? You should be dating for at least 5 years…” “Just because you’re a Christian, it doesn’t mean you have to get married young…”
I guess I don’t like how these women chastise me? They act like every choice I make is wrong, and if I don’t follow their advice exactly, I’ll fail at life.
*sigh* I really need to leave NYC.
Butterfly, you had the same problem with nice-beta guys right?
When I was 17. I was kinda direct [you're cute - let's have a hot make-out session!] so I used to intimidate them. Note: I’d go for shy quiet Japanese betas/omegas; they’re a bit more fragile than their American counterparts. Or as the Japanese government describes them: asexual herbivore men.
I also used to pursue older Beta guys. I look underage [13], so I think the threat of jail used to scare them off. They’d brush me off, confused. “I’m not sure why this teenager likes me….”
Off topic, but have you seen this Susan?
http://www.bakadesuyo.com/when-does-i-love-you-mean-the-most-to-men-and
It totally jives with what I’ve been saying about how a girl shouldn’t have sex with a guy until after he has told her “I love you.” Everybody said I was out of my mind. Well, research now backs me up!
Hope-
I agree with you. You’re not out of your mind.
Hope,
I think that just means men are most happy if the woman confesses “I love you” before sex and women are most happy if the man confesses after sex.
@Jess
For two years?
@SayWhaat, what about this?
http://www.bakadesuyo.com/who-says-i-love-you-first-men-or-women
Butterfly Flower is not a troll. The notion of Jess discussing her as one is laughable.
BF has become engaged at a youngish age – 21 I think? Anyway, several women of a certain age have judged her rather harshly for doing so. As if she’s holding back female progress for making a personal choice. I know one woman whose daughter married at 22, right after college. Several “well-meaning” middle-aged Cantabridgians (read: lefty feminists) asked her why she just didn’t get an abortion. (She wasn’t pregnant.)
At a recent dinner party the subject of fertility came up, and a very smart female labor union leader suggested that men should be forced to marry women while they’re still fertile – it’s men delaying marriage that is robbing women of their fertility.
I’ve never encountered a ruder or fuzzier thinking crowd than the lefty feminists in the Boston area. It’s alarming enough trying to decipher the ranting and raving of an Amanda Marcotte. The feminists I’ve met IRL are worse – they’re a bit less angry, but a whole lot stupider.
Butterfly, just ignore these catty and petty comments from Mean Women. You don’t owe anyone an apology, and you’re not ditzy.
@Hope
Fascinating! I’m going to dig that study up tomorrow. I think it’s especially interesting that it was done by a Sloan school grad.
@Yohami:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2009/06/the_herbivores_dilemma.html
That’s a Slate article on Japanese herbivore men.
“I spent the night at one guy’s house, and nothing happened—we just went to sleep!” moaned one incredulous woman on a TV program devoted to herbivores.
…would an American Beta do that? I feel like American Betas are a bit more proactive. Like, an American Beta might try to have sex with a girl, if she climbed into his bed.
@Hope:
Your post makes me wonder – how common is it for women to sleep with a guy, when they know he doesn’t love them? Do some women think sleeping with manwhore badboy Alphas will make the guy fall in love and commit to them?
You see, I’m fed up with my monthly Harlequin romance novels [um, I don't subscribe to the Harlequin monthly book club?]; the past few years that’s been a common plotline. The slutty protagonist sleeps with a rebel billionaire shipping heir fighter pilot, and the act of sex alone, somehow makes the rebel billionaire shipping heir fighter pilot, fall in love with the slutty protagonist. I always viewed these plotlines as lazy writing [the author bypasses writing the "romance", by giving the heroine a magic snatch] but now I think these books might be thought-porn for sluts.
*sigh* I love going to thrift-stores and swap meets looking for the old, 1960′s Mills and Boone. Purple prose or not, those were real romance!
BF has become engaged at a youngish age – 21 I think? Anyway, several women of a certain age have judged her rather harshly for doing so. As if she’s holding back female progress for making a personal choice.
I wonder if it’s that so much as a reaction to the high divorce rate for younger, less educated couples. As a woman of a certain age myself, I would have mixed feelings about my sons marrying young. On the one hand, I see the validity of the fertility argument, and selfishly I really want to be in good shape as a grandmother. OTOH, twenty-somethings seem significantly less mature than we were at that age. Most of the 21 year olds I know don’t seem ready for marriage and kids.
Hope–You’re correct.
@ Butterfly Flower
It’s very common – to the average American girl under 25, that’s what sex is. I think on some level, some of them think the guy might fall in love with them, but most girls are more realistic than that deep down in the recesses of their id where hamsters fear to tread. Most people aren’t stupid, just very good at lying to themselves. They do it because alpha-sex without love and commitment appeals to them more than beta-sex with love and commitment (I don’t think “no sex” enters into the equation, at least not in the way it does for a beta male). Whether they are correct or not depends on the girl, though I’d venture that most are wrong.
@ Susan
Haha, heard a similar thing a while back. Back at school, the Society of Women Engineers had a social, and one of the (older, childless, female) profs apparently got a bit tipsy and told all the girls that if they pursued their PhD’s and engineering careers, they would all be infertile before they married. I wish I had the exact quote, but everything I’ve got is second- or third-hand, so I’m assuming “You really cant have it all!” came up. It appears to have scared the crap out of all of them. There is a certain dark, dark humor in realizing that SWE was founded to make women feel more welcome in the field, and to combat social barriers to female engineers.
But getting back to your story, when it comes to forcing men to marry women young, is the speaker willing to then order these young, fertile women to reproduce? Logically speaking, forcing men to marry young women for reproductive purposes kind of won’t work without forcing the women to carry their end of the deal to term. Pretty sure we have a word for that. Is she willing to be one of these females? Or, if she’s too old, to make her daughter do it? Or is this plan just for a certain breed of woman that she finds distasteful, one who no one in academia would miss? The mind boggles.
@ Hope, SayWhaat
If a girl says “I love you” before sex, odds are good that sex is imminent (unless sex happens in the first, say, month or so, in which case, RUN). If a guy says “I love you” before sex, odds are good he’s about to hit the friendzone like a bird through a jet engine. Seems to me that link confirms it.
Or else I’m overthinking it.
As for guys saying it first, well, yeah. 80% of us menfolk are betas, who fall hard for girls before they fall for us – if they do at all (see: betas). Seems that would skew the average quite a bit towards us.
Or, to drop the terms of art for a bit, it may also be that it’s not as common for us menfolk to feel like we have that sort of emotional outlet available. I’ve seen chicks bond in days and talk about the most private things (some backstabbings came later, on occasion, but the point stands). Most men know a handful of people we really trust that way in our entire lives. If we meet someone who we really connect with, it can be like a dam bursting. The step from “Some chick” to “wow, she’s a good catch” is a long one, but the step from there to “I friggin’ love this girl” is a much shorter one. Doubly so if you mix loneliness/sexual frustration with cynicism, as that scarcity mentality makes her seem tough to replace. I think a significantly larger portion of guys face that situation than women do.
I definitely witnessed and experienced hierarchical and bullying behavior as a kid. But it never seemed especially gendered, except that the boys tended to get a little more physical.
My professional observation of kids is that, male or female, they are tremendous conformists. Like a wolf pack that attacks and expels an albino wolf or one with a curly tail (This is how we got dogs, BTW.), a pack of kids will ostracize any kid that exhibits differences in an attmept to make to make that kid conform to the group norm.
I would assume that many of HUS commenters have experienced this directly. I confess that I have–and generally because I did not pick up on or intentionally ignored social cues. IOW, even as an adult, when I don’t want to be the odd girl out, I refrain from discussing dinosaurs. My DH, who hates sports, makes it a point to keep up with football beause he knows that business socializing depends on it.
If a guy says “I love you” before sex, odds are good he’s about to hit the friendzone like a bird through a jet engine.
Marriage was already being discussed before I had sex with my husband. Not as a bargaining chip, but because we were both afraid of killing the love with premature sex.
^J
Same. My last partner and I fell in love before having sex. I respected him and trusted him the most than any other boyfriend.
It’s so much better that way.
@WarmWoman
It is so much better that way. I’ve never been with a guy who didn’t fall in love with me before even kissing or anything physical.
@J, WW & Hope
Co-signed.
Maybe it makes me totally lame, but I would rather hold hands with someone I loved –or even pine for each other across the room without touching– than have even one kiss where neither of us cares about the other.
@ Hope, J, WarmWoman, Jackie
Glad that’s worked out for you. I know women like that exist, and was perhaps putting more emphasis on simile than accuracy. Let me rephrase: I don’t think women like that exist in great enough numbers to justify using that strategy (falling in love, or even just saying it, before sex), even if the payoff is really good.
Oh, poo on that. Makes sense for women, though. I felt loved once I had sex.
@Odds
Guys don’t say that in seriousness without a LOT of show of interest from the girl. Not even the most beta of beta men would do it. No guy has said it to me until after I made it clear I felt way more than friendship toward him.
This is common nowadays, and pretty unfortunate.
Odds
Today’s woman is brainwashed into thinking that you should have sex right away or you’re weird. It’s also kind of sad when female friends pressure each other to have sex as soon as possible. This is what a former roommate told me “You mean it’s been 5 dates and you haven’t had sex yet? Who does that? This isn’t the 50′s.” Um, okay.
I know one woman whose daughter married at 22, right after college. Several “well-meaning” middle-aged Cantabridgians (read: lefty feminists) asked her why she just didn’t get an abortion. (She wasn’t pregnant.)
I’m pretty sure a few women at my old church were trying to discourage me from getting married young, because they got married young after getting knocked up. I was waiting for them to give me contact information to a Christian adoption agency.
To be honest, I think it’s funny “she’s pregnant” is the first assumption women make. I’ve always been a goody-two shoes “waiting until marriage” Christian. Being castigated by elders, becoming the fast-girl who got herself into trouble? Hilarious.
I wonder if it’s that so much as a reaction to the high divorce rate for younger, less educated couples. As a woman of a certain age myself, I would have mixed feelings about my sons marrying young. On the one hand, I see the validity of the fertility argument, and selfishly I really want to be in good shape as a grandmother. OTOH, twenty-somethings seem significantly less mature than we were at that age. Most of the 21 year olds I know don’t seem ready for marriage and kids.
My fiance is older than me [late 20's]. & I attended university for a semester and a half – then I had a severe RA complication, and nearly died. I really don’t think it’s my lack of degree. It’s the concept, that women are supposed to build up a career before they settle down and get married. Even if I did have a career – they’d probably tell me to wait until I’m more settled in my job.
Long story short: I’m told women who get married in their early 20′s ruin their lives. I’m wasting valuable career building time. I should get married in my 30′s, after I climb the corporate ladder.
Throughout my career, 95% of the sexual harassment, bullying, competition, gossip, and attempts at blackmail and sabotage I’ve been on the receiving end of has come from men. I’ve also been the one stuck at work late doing the overtime because the guys had to go home to their kids. Welcome to Web and software – it’s a total boy’s club.
Despite that, I’ve been in the management end of it for five years now, and I’m a big believer in using hands-off management principles and trusting my team to deliver good results. I’ve been successful and very well-liked as a manager so far, and while learning how to manage deftly and fairly can’t be done overnight, I’ve found the following general principles to serve me well. Perhaps they will serve some of you well, too. They are as follows:
1. Make time for your team. I spend at least 15 minutes a day meeting with each person on my team for a status update. I like to know what they’re working on, what their upcoming deadlines are, what they’ve turned in recently, and what they need help with. Spending that time with the team early in the day saves me time later, ensures the projects are done right the first time, and ensures I’m not micromanaging. Most people don’t like micromanaging because they feel suffocated, and it makes them feel you don’t trust them. Striking a balance between knowing your team’s status and giving them breathing room to do good work is pretty much management gold.
2. Instill confidence. I had one young man convinced he couldn’t make a PowerPoint for his client. I had a young lady who was unable to get through a specific type of assignment because one man at the firm told her work was “too [racial insult]” (yes, seriously, this happens in the 21st century, folks!). I sat down with both of them and showed them how to work through what was challenging them until they could do it themselves. The result: They acquired skills they could take to any job, and they knew I had confidence in their abilities. Having confidence in your team is priceless.
3. Create an open-door culture. I personally cultivate a policy that no question is too minor. I want my team to come to me anytime they need help, have doubts, want a hand, or need a deadline extension. I’m not out to get them – my goal is to help them work to the best of their abilities so we can all shine.
4. No gossip, no poison. As a boss, I don’t talk behind other peoples’ backs, and when I’m witness to gossip, I change the subject. Unfortunately, some people turn to tearing each other down when they don’t have enough to do during the day, and when you’re the boss, you absolutely, positively cannot get involved.
5. Give credit. Whenever someone on my team has personally done the work to create a successful result, I e-mail a notification of that to my client and CC my boss. If people report to you, they want to know that you have their back and are noticing and promoting their efforts.
General thoughts: Aside from those guidelines, I would say that giving clear instructions, setting clear deadlines, and using good tracking tools or project management software helps a lot, too. Many people struggle with keeping organized to a greater or lesser degree, and while everyone’s system for keeping things straight is different, to manage effectively, you have to find a system that works for you.
Many people who work in my field are on the Asperger’s side of the spectrum. While I don’t have Asperger’s, I am a very literal and direct person, and always have been. If a behavior or communication isn’t direct, it often goes over my head. Looking back, some people might have tried to be covertly competitive with me, but I doubt I noticed, or else I would have remembered it. My dad tells me it’s easier to be scheming and devious if you can be covert like that (he’s not good at it either). He had a boss who was very good at being scheming and underhanded (also male, not that it matters). This boss made my dad’s working experience a living nightmare for the better part of 3 decades, but the jerk eventually got found out and fired. It might feel good to scheme and plot against someone in the short term, but sooner or later, it will backfire against you. You can ask my dad’s old boss, or my dad, who got promoted to his old position. = D
then I had a severe RA complication, and nearly died.
I’m terribly sorry to hear that.
I really don’t think it’s my lack of degree. ..
Actually, I wasn’t speaking of having a degree or not. Nor was I speaking necessarily of your personal situtation. I was saying that fewer people in their early 20s today evidence the sort of emotional maturity that people of that age had thirty years ago. Women of my generation do comment about that amongst themselves; protracted adolescence is even a common theme here at HUS. I’m suggesting that when older women urge younger women to hold off a bit, go to school, work, travel, be self-supporting or just gain some sort of life experience it may be a response to the perception that people seem to be less mature than they used to. It doesn’t strike me as realistic that every older woman who tells you to take some time is intent on pushing you up the corporate ladder. They just may genuine perceive you as too young and unready for the challenges of marriage. Marriage is not the answer to the question of “What am I going to do with my life if I don’t have a career?” It’s a relationship with another person who has needs, wants, ideas,etc. that you will have to meld with yours. It is, though often worthwhile, probably one of the most difficult things most people ever do.
And these days, half of those who try fail. Advising caution is not the same as people shooting you down for not finishing college. In fact, I would assume that past a certain point, few people outside your family care one way or the other as to whether or not you earn a degree. (That’s not a put down: I’m just being realistic. I can’t imagine that any of these older women are really losing sleep over it. Nor should you lose sleep over their opinion, for that matter.)
Twenty-one should not necessarily be too young for marriage. I can recall a time that people thought 21 was a bit old, especially for non-college grads. Even college girls hoped to marry at the end of senior year. However, many of the 21 year olds I see are significantly less mature than 21 year olds used to be, especially pampered UMC suuburban kids.
At a recent dinner party the subject of fertility came up, and a very smart female labor union leader suggested that men should be forced to marry women while they’re still fertile – it’s men delaying marriage that is robbing women of their fertility.
I’m assuming this was said in jest?
@ Susan
“At a recent dinner party the subject of fertility came up, and a very smart female labor union leader suggested that men should be forced to marry women while they’re still fertile – it’s men delaying marriage that is robbing women of their fertility.”
Is it really men’s fault, though? Most men want children at some point of their life, and they will choose a woman that is still fertile, usually younger than themselves. I don’t see how marrying earlier in their lives will make things better, it’s the same age group of women (20-30) who’s the most appealing anyway.
Butterfly Flower,
We were engaged at 22 and married at 23 and I am so happy that we married young (relatively speaking, of course). I can’t even imagine what it would have been like otherwise. For us it was the absolute best thing and if you know that it is for the two of you then . . . it is. I am very happy for you.
Congratulations on your engagement, Butterfly.
I have no way of knowing what interactions you have had with older women with careers. But I do have trouble taking your claims at face value for a couple of reasons. First, I am a middle aged woman with a career in the northeast, I know a ton of other women who fit that description (including women in NYC) and I know quite a few Cambridge lefty types. I find it hard to imagine women of this description being overly invested in your life choices one way or the other. Second, I got engaged right after college and no one ever said anything negative to me, not even my lefty Cambridge type w omen professors. No one gave a crap.
Third, I suppose it is just possible that some of these women if they are in a friendship or mentoring relationship with you are concerned for your well being. They are aware of some of the down sides of marrying young and foregoing career. Granted, it’s poor etiquette to pass judgment on someone elses life choices, but I doubt that they are out to get ya.
Fourth, I suspect that you are not just telling hese women what you plan to do. I suspect you are slipping in back handed slms at what these older women have chosen. You know what I am talking about: something like “I am not going to have a career because I don’t plant to neglect my children,” thereby implying that women who have children and careers are lousy mothers. Such women might indeed turn hostile at being slammed like that. (By the way, I don’t believe most SAHMs engage in those kind of slams. My suspicion that you might be is based on the tone of your comments in this thread.)
Lastly, I still don’t know why expressions of disapproval by older woman, while rude, would engender fear in you. People criticize me all the time. You just tell them you disagree and move on.
@Mike C
It wasn’t, but I assume she didn’t mean that we should round up men and force them bodily to participate in weddings. She was saying that instead of marriage being delayed because women are getting more educated, valuing career development, etc., it’s happening later because men are extending adolescence, having their fun and enjoying casual sex. She believes we should be more vocal in criticizing men for this behavior. (At this point, I introduced the apex fallacy concept to her, which silenced her temporarily.)
I also shared the example of the advertising campaign by the American Reproductive Assoc. – (the one where ads on buses showed a baby bottle shaped like an hourglass. Women’s groups had protested until the ads were taken down.) She agreed that such ads are counterproductive, shame women, make them feel guilty, limit their options, etc.
Her position was completely inconsistent logically. I let the matter drop, but it is just one more example of a conversation with an ardent feminist that made little to no sense.
By the way, this woman got divorced by her husband when she had an affair. The guy dumped her after a couple of years for a younger woman, while her ex-husband has remarried a much younger woman. I believe she blames her ex for everything, including her need to seek sex outside the marriage.
Actually, much of delayed adolescence and delayed marriage is due to our society’s obsessive concern with educational credentials. While you may need to spend 20 years in school if you’re going to be doing advanced research work in semiconductor physics, for most careers the number of years of seat time that have become required have little to do with actual job requirements and a lot to do with signaling conspicuous consumption. The economic and social damage of this practice is only now beginning to become clear.
My most recent post: working river or real-estate amenity?
The lefties of SF, LA and DC are not any better, in my opinion…just different.
Rude and fuzzy reminds me of Oscar the Grouch, who was my favorite Sesame Street character as a boy.
I’m not a leftie (though I’m not a rightie , either…. I’d rather think of myself as ambidextrous), and yet this still strikes me as being a bit ridiculous. I know just as many frayed-brained conservatives as I do muddle-minded liberals. Most people in general aren’t clear-thinking individuals. And quite a bit are rude, but usually only to their detractors.
Anyway, while the majority of liberals I know are only half as smart as they think they are, the most moronic people I know are conservatives. Of course, I also know highly intelligent people who would identify as one or the other. But the smartest people always seem to be ambis (like me, naturally).
I am curious: are you implying that I am conservative?
Ramble,
In between which lines did you read such an implication? I have no idea which you are. Nor would it make a difference.
In between which lines did you read such an implication?
It was a question, not a statement.
Actually, much of delayed adolescence and delayed marriage is due to our society’s obsessive concern with educational credentials.
True. Yet, the phenomenon has grown from there. Young adults with no big educational plans are in fact less stable and more likely to fail at marriage than college kids.
Most kids are raised with a sense of their own “specialness” and with a “live for today” attitude that just is not consonant with reality.
There, now the circle is complete, I sound like my mother.
but it is just one more example of a conversation with an ardent feminist that made little to no sense. By the way, this woman got divorced by her husband when she had an affair. The guy dumped her after a couple of years for a younger woman, while her ex-husband has remarried a much younger woman. I believe she blames her ex for everything, including her need to seek sex outside the marriage.
I have a neighbor in a similar situation who blames her husband for her cheating. She has never been any sort of feminist or even worked a day in her life. I’m not sure blindness to one’s faults is limited to any one political stance.
“I found this out the hard way. Nearly all of my bad encounter with older women, I experienced on the NYC charity circuit.”
I have a theory on this. What we are talking about here is the female specific competition in its most unpleasant form. Female competition is more centered arround who is in or out of the group, who is “good enough” and eliminating competitors entirely (extradition from the group) as oposed to male competition which is more about objective achievment and rising and faling in rank in a hirearchy while remaining inside the group whenver you loose a “battle” with another male in the group but at a lower rank. The male competition is very direct and the female more indirect. Certain fields by its nature and through the people it attracts tends towards the male or female specific competitive model regardless of which gender is in it but is also influneced by how many of each gender is present in the. The fashion industry is one example of a field were the female form of competition dominates because of the subjective nature evaluating performance, becuase it is filled with women and gay men and because you win or loose by gaining in POPPULARITY, by being IN or OUT. Intelectual groups and academia tends to have a fair share of these dynamics as well. Ten years ago I got annoyed by the male friends of a friend of mine because they tended to put each other down and put themselves up in very female ways. These guys were intelectuals and hipsters both of which are groups that tend to compete in this way. Hipsters in a way POSE for other people all day and try to take on an attitude of superiority which is very aware of its audience. This is different from an alpha attitude which is more an attitude of being able to DO and is hardly aware of other people looking, or even excisting. Hipsters are very much parttaking in a poppularity context, working on being IN the GROUP. Alphas just want to LEAD the group or go their own way and TAKE things. This is why so many in the manospehre hate hipsters. Men in the manopshere have always had or have developed a more classic style of alpha masculinity. Men using a female form of competition gives such men a visceral repulsion not unlike womens repulsion to a highly beta man who tries to pick up her or her friend. THe reaction is increased by teh hipster not just feeling like a woman but pretending to be a high status man through womanly means which massively increase the gut reaction of contempt.
Fundraising is a field almost entirely focused arround “female” type status competition by its nature and through the type of people who want to be in it. It is all about hwo others VIEW you not about what objective result you can get in making the physical world conform to your plan or by knocking out oponents or becoming the leader of other men through deserved authority. So fundraising has always and will always be one of the places with highest degree of “female” competition and because very wealthy people often have large egos and very wealthy people that want to be SEEN doing fundraising have egos the size of tank ships the field is forever doomed to be dominated by HARSH “female” style competition.
I think one way to solve these problems for women in terms of their won friends is by “divide and rule” meaning by having several female friends that are not friends with each other instead of having a choesive group of friends. My closest female friend has always done this and I suspect, although don`t know, that this is a big part of why she has done this. The individual freindships tend to work better if there are no possiblities of shifting aliances within the girl group.
I just found the COMPLETE article on the “Female Dog Whistle”.
“”My husband and some mates went to a gig last month that my friends and I didn’t fancy. The next day, a girl we know who’d gone with them left this Facebook status update: “Sarah wants to apologise to all the wives and girlfriends for keeping their men out late last night! Naughty me
”
The month before, we’d all been sitting in a beer garden and she’d started a game of “I have never” purely so she could reveal – again – that she’d once had a threesome on holiday, fully understands the offside rule, and finds stockings and suspenders just soo comfortable
My husband didn’t get it. “You girls are so bitchy”, he said, “She just came to the gig and had a laugh…”. Neither he nor the other lads get why Sarah makes us bristle. That’s why she’s called a Dog Whistle: only women can hear her.
Men think she’s sweet, misunderstod and picked on. Women know she’s a manipulative, girl-hating nightmare who carves cheap male attention. If you complain about these girls to your boyfriend, he will say you and your friends are being bitchy or of course, jealous. This is not about jealousy or looks, and certainly not about whether our men would stray – we wouldn’t be with them if we feared that.
The DW hangs out in all mainly male groups, describes hersel as a “bit of a tomboy” and spends hours in front of the mirror before a game of pool with the lads. When we want to go dancing, she suggests a strip club – and not because Dita von Teese is her style icon, but because she constantly feels the need to demonstrate how sexually liberated she is and how she finds other women difficult and “uptight”.
“She makes herself stupid to get attention from men (*baby voice* How do I send an email on this ‘puter?). She will invite girls with their boyfriends to a pajama party. You turn up in flannel, she opens the door in a babydoll and stay-ups.
The giveaway catchphrase is “Women don’t like me and I don’t know why”. It means “I don’t like women and I want you to think they’re jealous of me”.
She lacks the skills and personality to become friends with other females. So pretends to be “one of the boys”, because it’s easy to get attention from men as woman (especially when “sexually liberated”). If you ask any of her ‘male friends’, they will confirm – she is not one of the boys. She lives on male attention.
For a normally social person, it is perfectly possible to meet girls that aren’t bitches.
To tame the DW it doesn’t help to highlight her faults to men – they will feel sorry for her and think less of you. The best policy is to smile, remember she has the self-confidence of a chrysalis and refuse to play her game. Because for every Dog Whistle, there are 20 women who’ve got your back”.
Worst part is, I showed this to a girl who has all male friends, and she said “Christ though, that sounds like a load of insecure women bitching about those confident enough to break conventions and do what makes them happy”.
Susan,
The whole thing is incredible!
There´s consistency, but everything else is missing.
So Anna, if you sent that comment to your boyfriend, what would he say?
On another note,
That game is always annoying. I have never known a guy to want to play it (unless he is going to find out that some girl is a complete whore).
@ Ramble
I don’t have a boyfriend
“Anyway, while the majority of liberals I know are only half as smart as they think they are, the most moronic people I know are conservatives. Of course, I also know highly intelligent people who would identify as one or the other. But the smartest people always seem to be ambis (like me, naturally).”
Well I identify as a conservative, but not necessarily a Republican (although our current system forces them together). I would say I have some serious libertarian tenancies on specific issues, but generally I would like smaller government and less change for the sake of making changes. Oh and for all that is holy, less laws!
And could someone PLEASE trash our current tax code and make something simple and fair?
Sorry for the political rant, but I feel like I’ve been slacking since I don’t have a dog in this particular fight.
Wudang #252
Very insightful comment.
I usually lurk on this blog but had to say something in defense.
My first job was at a bank, in my department I had around 6 senior women. And no I was not at some fluffy job that was a female ghetto, I was in a highly competitive “you eat what you kill” department. All these women were nothing but kind to me, my direct supervisor was a woman and my mentor..in fact we had such a close relationship she’s coming to my wedding this fall. The only misery I suffered from a female colleague was from one closer to my ranking, and a male colleague participated in the bullying too, so it was not gender based.
My second job my direct supervisor is also a woman. She’s been nothing but supportive. This article just seems based on stereotypes, and is nothing I have experienced. There are good and bad bosses both female and male, unfortunately the work place is competitive and political.
@Susan,
Your site remains my favorite for stirring up ruminations on the many problems of managing non-male employees.
We’ve had almost zero turnover amongst our female staff in the last few years, our clients are praising the work they’re doing, they are even occasionally innovative in the approach to their jobs, and we haven’t given anything other than token raises or bonuses in several years.
Obviously I wonder, ‘what the heck is it we’re doing right?’ It’s not at all like us to manage competently, so it’s a real anomaly to see a group with that much cohesiveness, perseverance, dedication, etc…
After reading your article, I’m wondering if maybe women work best together when they’re united in bitching about the men? Our office metaphorically is one part living room and one part kitchen, and you can guess who is where. From what I can gather the women spend a great deal more time venting frustrations about the men who don’t do any work than about each other.
There may very well be other components to our accidental success, but a little de facto segregation may very well play apart.
cheers
I’m sure that’s true. It’s just that in Boston, I don’t know any conservatives, or even many centrists. I don’t slot easily into either camp, myself, but I find myself usually arguing the conservative position in discussions. Someone has to. I think part of the reason that the liberal arguments I hear are so poorly reasoned is that the people spouting them rarely encounter opposition.
Wudang and Butterflow Flower,
If you want to get a better idea as to how the Charity Circuit work, all you need to do is watch one scene from “Friends with Money”.
The Jennifer Aniston character (who is, basically, poor, but has rich friends) is at a Charity Dinner with some of her rich friends. Realizing that a fair amount of money had to be spent on the food, tables, waiters, chefs, Dining Hall, lighting, valets, gowns (worn by the female attendees), etc. asks her friend (played by Joan Cusack) why do they not simply cancel all of the dinner stuff and simply give the money to the charity? To which the Joan Cusack character responds, with annoyance, “Because that is not how it is done!”.
And, for anyone who may feel that this might be a solely female thing, I will point you to all of the (celebrity) golf tournaments done by men.
@Wudang
That’s a fascinating analysis of hipster culture. I wonder how hipsters attract so much female attention (cause lots of tingles) when they’re displaying female-like qualities. Women totally dig those punk pop guys singing about their emotions.
@Ysabelle
I don’t begin to claim that every professional woman has encountered this, or behaves this way, obviously. Rezvani says she is asked about this every single time she speaks, but not by every woman in the room. A woman who has a supportive female boss is fortunate and has no need of advice.
I started working in 1978, and have had many different kinds of interaction with both genders. All things being equal, I’d rather work for a man every single time. I’ve personally witnessed women behaving badly in professional settings a lot. I could document dozens of examples. I have also seen men behave badly, and I could document a handful of examples.
I’m glad you de-lurked, and it’s great that you’ve had good experiences, but if this is a stereotype, it’s a valid one. The post offers several relevant examples from different women. Their experiences have been negative, and they’re just as valid as your experiences, no?
@alexamenos
Interesting – while I was writing the article I was thinking about when women do work well together, and it’s clear that it happens when they’re united against a common foe. This happens on sports teams, debating team, even girl gangs. Even Mean Girl groups follow this dynamic, as they close ranks to bully some poor victim. The Women’s Movement is probably the best example of women succeeding in this way. Lysistrata comes to mind!
So yes, I think there’s something to that. I don’t know what the opportunity cost of such a strategy is in a company setting, but it sounds like you’ve found a winning formula.
“Anyway, while the majority of liberals I know are only half as smart as they think they are, the most moronic people I know are conservatives. Of course, I also know highly intelligent people who would identify as one or the other. But the smartest people always seem to be ambis (like me, naturally).”
Okay, I’ll bite. So you don’t think the liberals are moronic just because they think they are smart. The conservative position is usually argued intelligently, while the liberal position is demogogued.
That’s a fascinating analysis of hipster culture. *I wonder how hipsters attract so much female attention (cause lots of tingles) when they’re displaying female-like qualities.* Women totally dig those punk pop guys singing about their emotions.
Just theorizing, but my best guess is the hipster/emo guys have a very narrow segment of women who have a strong attraction to them, and that these women do NOT find other traditional markers of masculinity attractive (such as highly developed muscularity). Just goes to show that there is truth that womens’ preferences vary and it is up to guys to kind of identify the right target market to try and sell themselves to. I could be overreaching here, but I also suspect women attracted to these men are more masculine and you end up with a more androgynous pair instead of more distant opposites.
Susan, I never read The Game from Neil (Style) Strauss, but it was my understanding that when all of those PUAs got into one house, they could not live with one another because they were all a bunch of primadonnas.
Think of some of the things that PUAs focus on:
– Wear Nice Shoes
– Be (somewhat) erratic with your emotions (i.e. keep her guessing)
– Be indirect
– Peacocking
– Display Status
– When shit tested: agree and amplify (i.e. treat them like a child), or do not take them seriously, or ignore, or whatever
These are all very feminine things.
Could you imagine some traditional male coming from some farm in North Dakota acting this way?
My point is, Hipsters are using feminine techniques to attract certain kinds of females. This is, basically, normal.
Traditional, masculine, hard working, modest, soft spoken men do not get the best blowjobs from the hottest chicks.
Dark Triads, Douchebags, and wanna-be rockstars do.
There, now the circle is complete, I sound like my mother.
Kids get off my lawn!
About BF and mean elder ladies.
I will say that I happen to think that BF might be really innocent in this interaction, My boss wife first comment ever to me was that she didn’t got how I was so happy when I was single at 24, never married or kids (being single is worst than being a single mother) and used to talk with other high female executives that I was either lesbian or sleeping with a married man. All that because I smiled too much for not having regular sex according to her. The other older ladies kind of let it go after a few months of getting to know me, but I could see this going on forever under different circumstances and she never let it go, till I got married and won my first literary award. After that she kind of wanted to be pals with me, I guess she though I was on my way to reaching her status and that changed her interaction with me. Thanks but no thanks.
Yes, the experiences of the other people may be valid. But I truly believe that things have changed. I’ve met so many great women mentors that had taken time out to help me in my career (business networks etc), that articles like this claiming that to be wary of women bosses paints them with an unfair brush. A young girl reading this article may become more suspicious of the intents of her female boss, laying a foundation for a not so pleasant relationship. Throughout my career, I’ve tried reaching out to senior women from all walks of life, and without their help I don’t think I would have the insight that I have today.
The truth is, the work place is political. I’ve been privy to male colleagues gossiping just as well as female colleagues. Its up to the individual to sound out who the good and “bad” people and avoid the vicious competitive people. People will be jealous of you for some reason or another, its up to you to avoid them.
With regards to marrying early, if my future daughter informed me that she was going to be marrying at 21, I’ll probably advice her to be cautious. and that’s not because I’m jealous of her. Young people both female and male are asked to establish themselves before marriage, and that takes time. One of my colleagues got married at 20, it was a he and people were giving him questioning looks too.
You don’t have to wait till your 30s, but experience life a little so you can make better decision as to who you will marry and enjoy life a little bit. I had so much fun in my early 20s trying out new jobs and going to new countries. Its also true that there is a marriage gap in the US – people with more education and higher socio-economic status are staying married longer, these are the people that had time to establish themselves. (Though I’m sure young mature people have great success at marriage, but the truth is that most aren’t. I’m a much different person today at 29 than when I was at 21).
@Ysabelle
The thing with being wary of marry young is supposedly to avoid divorce. But one of the pilars of modern PC culture was to take the shame out of divorce anyway. Women can divorce because they are bored and society rewards them with book deals and symphaty, if we were in the past were a divorced woman was treated like a pariah and blamed for the failure of her marriage it will make sense to be weary. But we are not. So what is the point? If there is no shame of being a divorcee regardless of reasons why a young woman should wait if she feels she is ready to get married?
To Anaconda, refer to this article.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/19/fashion/how-divorce-lost-its-cachet.html?pagewanted=all
In my circles, if someone were to get divorced I’m sure there will be loads of gossip. In our eyes, success and status is still related to a (1) high flying job and (2) a rich husband and (3) a bunch of smart kids that eventually go to ivy league collages.
To say that divorce is so common that society sanctions it, so a young woman might as well take her chances and marry anyway even though the probability of divorce increases is a round about argument. Divorce is never desirable, it takes a toll on both parties, affects the children and impacts both economically. Divorce has been described as one of the most horrible things a person can go through. In fact, in one of those PUA books, they advice men to marry only after the age of 25.
Why won’t anyone try to prepare herself or himself for marriage and improve chances for marriage success by maturing a little and marrying a little later instead of having a starter marriage? When the consequences are quite terrible despite society allowing it? I’m not about to tell my daughter “go ahead, get married. you can get divorced if it does not work out.” I’m not about to pay 30,000 to 40,000 for a wedding if there’s a high chance its going to break apart anyway.
IME, pretty much all girls are awful from age 12-14, and then by the end of college most girls have outgrown their “Mean Girl” tendencies. Of course, some girls are Bitches for Life.
I *hated* Middle School, but from high school onwards I’ve had some really good female friends. I think it helps that I’m a Myers-Briggs Introvert. Although I come across as friendly and outgoing, I actually need very little social interaction. (That makes me sounds so lame haha.) So whenever any girl tries to involve me in their playground politics, I have no problem packing up my toys and playing somewhere else.
I’ve actually loved all my female bosses. I had some really nasty co-workers while I was working as a lifeguard though. They were like Evil Malibu Barbies, but of course they were all sweetness and smiles whenever the male lifeguards were around. Anna’s “Female Dog Whistle” analogy is spot-on here.
I suspect you are slipping in back handed slms at what these older women have chosen. You know what I am talking about: something like “I am not going to have a career because I don’t plant to neglect my children,” thereby implying that women who have children and careers are lousy mothers. Such women might indeed turn hostile at being slammed like that. (By the way, I don’t believe most SAHMs engage in those kind of slams. My suspicion that you might be is based on the tone of your comments in this thread.)
I’d appreciate if you stopped making negative assumptions about me. I’m not sure what I wrote that would make you think such a thing. Wait, was it because I described myself as a Christian? I’m only sorta-Christian; I’m half Shinto-Buddhist [my father's Japanese]. I’m not the judgey-preachy “women belong in the kitchen, argh!” type.
Anyway, I never said any of those things to a career woman. I don’t care how other people choose to live their lives. I’m economically literate enough to realize it’s impossible for most families to raise their children on a single income. I don’t even blame women for putting their nursing infants into daycare, when maternity leave isn’t even a federal mandate. & I certainly don’t blame women for wanting to go back to work after having children. When I was recovering from my illness, I spent a lot of time at home. I finished doing laundry and vacuuming by 11 am. I can see why women with children in school would want to go back to work. Daytime television is terrible!
Anyway, all I basically say is “I’m engaged!” to trigger criticism. Or rumors that I’m knocked up.
Lastly, I still don’t know why expressions of disapproval by older woman, while rude, would engender fear in you. People criticize me all the time. You just tell them you disagree and move on.
I’m part Japanese, we’re approval seeking people. Displeasing my elders is a matter of grave concern. I don’t want to bring shame to my family!
Hm. I guess by “afraid” I meant these women make me feel ashamed. I don’t like feeling ashamed.
To say that divorce is so common that society sanctions it, so a young woman might as well take her chances and marry anyway even though the probability of divorce increases is a round about argument.
Well that is how Jezebel, feministing, and many media, tv shows and so on…preachs it, they even say that a marriage that last more than 10 years shouldn’t be considered a failure. I do personally consider divorce a tragedy, but I’m the only one so far in my circle of friends here in USA. So I will say maybe you live in a social group that does thinks that divorce is bad but is not the way American paints it anymore, again look at the success of eat pray and love, and similar works of fiction, people is embracing divorce so again there is no point on shaming people that want to give it a try young in general terms,YMMV.
Butterfly Flower,
You don’t have to defend yourself. Only 2 people here have any kind of problem with you whatsoever, and the one we know about is a coarse and muddle-minded feminist. Some feminists will see you as a threat because you don’t fall in with their herd.
The rest of us think you’re great.
Butterfly, it really sucks that people judge you for your choices. I’m sure everyone has been negatively judged for their choices at some point, and the only thing you can do is be the bigger person. While it’s not quite the same, I got picked on by teachers in high school because I failed to act the part of the model student. Also, I – along with every other employee in the company! – got picked on by my crazy boss in my first job in my field. That dude never met a rumor he didn’t like and his favorite game was pitting employees against one another. Joke’s on him. I still get along with people I worked with there, and his company’s still the sad revolving door it was when he founded it. The stupid old fool has taken to writing fake-”good” Google reviews for himself now! = D
People will be judgmental, misinformed, and interrogative at some point in your life, and all you can do is rise above it. You will be secure in your choice, and they will just be angry and judgmental.
(I got serious with my husband at 24, so I don’t think settling down young is a Big Deal ™. Best of luck!)
Well..I’m not talking about shaming anyone young who’s getting married. If you feel you’re ready for it go ahead.
I want my family and friends to have the best chance at success at marriage. I want my family and friends to have the best chance at having an enriching life.
The highest probability of doing so is to marry a little later and open yourself to more experiences in your youth so you’re better prepared for marriage later. So I would advice my daughter to think twice before early marriage. If I had married the first guy I loved I was 21..I think I’ll be totally unhappy now.
I really don’t see divorce as being viewed as cool and totally accepted. I don’t think anyone really rejoices and says you go girl when someone gets divorced, unless he was abusing her or something.
Maybe we’re from different demographics, eat pray love is not cool to my women friends at all. Its kinda of like..middle aged women who made wrong choices in their lives trying to get a second chance. Also, when hanging round like blogs like this and reading PUA blogs, and reading Jezebel, its easy to believe that many people embrace divorce. In the real world, the Jezebel readers are a small subset. People are concerned about their daily lives, not Jezebel and feminilisting. Most girls DON’T go to Jezebel or whatever site that promotes divorce. They read cosmopolitan..unfortunately.
Women in my demographic (mid 20s to late 20s), are concerned about finding fulfilling careers and boyfriends and eventually husbands. We’re envious of the person that has it all (the handsome husband that works at a hedge fund, the Vice President Job, and the one kid and the summer in the Hamptons). And the ones who have that have higher status than the ones who don’t. A divorced chick may hear “I’m so sorry” and consoling stuff, but noone wants to be her.
Anyway, men in our demographic and socio-economic strata aren’t usually interested in marrying 21 yr olds out of college. I can’t imagine my fiance ( a surgeon) picking off some college girl, he won’t be able to have a conversation with her. They want a trophy wife who can also have a good time with him. Trophy as in good looking, well educated, and fun to be with.
Sue,
I didn’t think you were trying to bash liberals, but it sounded a bit like that after Ramble’s comment. I find myself in the same position as you. I mean, when I’m with liberals, I argue the conservative pov, and when I’m with conservatives, I argue the liberal pov. Though, with my friends, it’s more likely to be postmodernists and post-colonialists, or even realists and magical realists, than liberals and conservatives.
D’oh I almost forgot, and this is for anyone: My dad give me this great book when I was younger called The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense. Check that one out too if you find yourself in difficult situations with difficult people. It’s still in print, and pretty cheap on Amazon.com. I’ve gotten quite good at Computer Mode over the years. People hate Mr. or Mrs. Reasonable – s/he’s no fun to argue with.
Also, considering the subject of the original post from Susan, the reaction you got from those two commenters seems oddly appropriate/enlightening. (I can’t think of a better word than “appropriate”, even though I know that is not right.)
Regardless of whether she meant to “bash” them or not, well, she basically called them a bunch of Kool Aid drinkers…which they are. And the types from SF, LA, DC and Portland are also a bunch of Kool Aid drinkers, except that the flavor of Kool Aid is just a little different.
And, these are the same people who mock Ruch Limbaugh listeners (for which, I do not blame them) for being (self described) Ditto Heads.
Personally, I find it easier to deal with your average conservative “red neck” than these self-important, pompous, pretentious, self-righteous, superior Leftists. I find the red necks to be a little more honest, if sometimes dim witted.
@Lindsay
I will definitely check out that book. As I’ve said before, you’ve got one of the best “blogside” manners of anyone I’ve encountered – if that book was instrumental, I want to read it.
Lindsay definitely is very nice. So is Ozy, too, btw. Makes me think that every gal should experiment with poly love.
Not really. But Lindsay’s smart, nice, and a fan of Fantomas, so she’s all good in the hood as far as I’m concerned.
Ramble,
Average people in general are easier to deal with–whether their necks are red, black, yellow, or white.
Average people in general are easier to deal with–whether their necks are red, black, yellow, or white.
That statement is completely lost on me.
Easier than whom?
Easier than non-average people, of course.
Ah, astute observation.
No, it wasn’t. But it wasn’t meant to be. You said that you’d rather deal with an average red neck than a self-important, pompous, pretentious, self-righteous, superior Leftist.
So I was simply pointing out that all average people are easier to deal with and that average red necks and self-important, pompous, pretentious, self-righteous, superior Leftists was a poor comparison.
@ Butterfly
Sorry I forgot, how old are you?
This attitude that women are “failing” the rest of the female population by getting married, has become normal
In Norway, especially in the cities (I’m from the capital), women marry late and you are not supposed to even think about it before 25. Some women feel like they are being looked down upon if they are pregnant in their early twenties. A friend of mine had her first child at 24, when she arrived at the hospital, the first thing the nurse said, was “so I’m guessing this wasn’t planned?”. (She was married, and yes it was a planned pregnancy). There is a strong political correctness of what one is supposed to do, and it is so heavily dictated in the media that barely anyone dare do otherwise. As a woman, you must do an MBA, you must wait until 35 with children, you must go back to work 6 months after birth, you must have all your children in kindergarden. As a man, you must do your full 12 weeks of paternity leave. I think it was the G20 conference where Norway had no politicians present because they were all on paternity leave. Equality is great, but there has to be boundaries. If you choose to stay home for more than a year, and if you have a wealthy husband on top of it, you’ll be victim of public hatred. I’m planning to do just that and smudge it in everybody’s faces.
@Wudang
That’s a fascinating analysis of hipster culture. I wonder how hipsters attract so much female attention (cause lots of tingles) when they’re displaying female-like qualities. Women totally dig those punk pop guys singing about their emotions.
Not quite sure but, as I forgot to mention, I think the same style of social competitiveness is present in aristocratic circles. Aristocrats as hipsters and women compete by in group and outgroup dynamics and through what they “just are” in the same way womens beuty and femininity just IS as oposed to alphas who compete in a world of DO and achieve and externally dependent achievement in some sense. Both aristocrats and hipsters try to be something as fixed as a womans beuaty. I guess even though this is feminine competition it is still about social status and social hierarchy and so hypergamy stimulating.
Right, but red necks are not average. I was trying to compare apples to apples. Or, (Left) wingers to (Right) wingers.
Personally, I find the one group to be completely insufferable.
Sure they are.
You plan on finding and marrying a wealthy guy?
Do you tell the guys this?
OK
Thank you, Susan Walsh for telling it like it is. I have long maintained that women would be much further along in this world if only we would stop keeping one another down. Both in and out of the workplace, the viciousness women display towards one another has caused me to avoid my own gender as much as I can when choosing both personal and working relationships. As a woman in my forties, I wish I could say to young women that this ugly behavior gets better, but in my experience, it really does not.
@ Ramble
I won’t go cash-hunting, but I expect him to have the same cash reserve as me or better, so we go in on a place together. I’m not going to provide for a man after all.
Re bubbly women
I’ll admit it. I can’t stand bubbly women. To reference Susans female archetype post, a woman I would consider “bubbly” would consist of the waif, spunky kid, and free-spirit. To me, a bubbly woman is very child-like in need of protection and is ultimately weak or frail. I think a lot of men like this type of woman because she is playful, and embodies a ton of traditional feminine qualities,but its not my cup of tea. Im more of a boss, crusader mix with a little of the free spirit spunky kid added in.
Bubbly people are too emotionally expressive for me. Interacting with people like this drain me emotionally so I just stay away from them. We’re separate sides of a coin and I like to keep it that way. Im more stoic and Im attracted to others who also have an inner strength. I’m definitely a emotionally neutral person most days, but interacting with a uber-positive person pisses me off and makes me want to wipe that smile off their face.
Speaking from someone who was once put in the role of a leader…
Quality leadership has a lot to do with 2 key positive traits: applied ethics, and situational competence.
Ethical analysis is very important for any leader in order to obtain the trust of those who would follow. Someone who can’t lead by setting clearly understood (either explicit or implicit) ground rules isn’t someone who can hold a frame. Remember the frame is part of your reality that helps guides people’s actions.
Number 2 is why you have some game theorists have a sub-category of alpha: situational alpha. A situational alpha is someone with the qualities of an alpha in a certain context, that may or may not be alpha in another context. For instance, a restaurant owner would be a situational alpha when he’s giving orders in his own place, even if he’s a complete beta at home.
The skill of leadership is developing the situational alpha for the needs of your particular position.
My issue with leadership, is that people don’t REALLY study it. Being a leader and working for a leader require a specific mindset (frame, in game terminology). If that isn’t maintained, then personality conflict can easily cause problems. Both managers and people who work for them really should study the proper technique for their particular roles.
I’ve worked for several bosses, and I very much prefer working for a boss who’s more beta, less micromanaging, and highly ethical.
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