Defining Sexy

 

In the recent post Sexy at Rational Male, Rollo Tomassi characterizes the above statement by Emma Watson as a “diatribe…inane post-pubescent aphorisms.”

The interview the above quote is from took place three years ago, when Watson was just 18. Her comment was an expression of her frustration with the gulf between the way she wishes to appear, and the way that the media wishes to portray her. She is not saying that she doesn’t want to feel sexy, or be sexy in her personal life. She is expressing that she doesn’t want to have to “be sexy” for the public.

In fact, in the original interview in the Daily Mail, this immediately preceded the above quote:

I had a party in town and the pavements were just knee-deep with photographers trying to get a shot of me looking drunk, which wasn’t going to happen. I don’t have to drink to have a good time. The sickest part was when one photographer lay down on the floor to get a shot up my skirt.

She is an attractive, brainy, talented woman who wants to keep it classy. Unlike so many young actresses who are all too willing to be plucked, bleached, lasered, cut and carved, vacuumed, implanted and airbrushed, Watson says, “That’s not me. I feel uncomfortable.” She’s being true to herself, refusing to market fakery. Since her goal is not to be a sex symbol, but a serious actress, she refrains from displaying her most sexual self to the public. She’s a modest young woman.

I have no plans to do anything for the sake of it, or to shock people. I might be willing to take my clothes off for a Bernardo Bertolucci film, if it was a part that really made sense as part of my character. But I wouldn’t do it just to make a point, to move on from Hermione. I’d hate to be so tactical. I’m not just getting my kit off for anyone.

If only Emma Watson were this hot!

She’s aiming for Natalie Portman, but Tomassi would prefer she channel Kim Kardashian. He quips:

Sexy is not always slutty, but slutty is always sexy.

Tomassi extends his misunderstanding: “Considering Emma’s boyish pixie cut this should come as no surprise to anyone. What Emma doesn’t get is that sexy isn’t always slutty. She doesn’t understand how to be sexy, but few women do because it is Men who’ve classically defined what is sexy and feminine in women. What has historically worked as sexy, and what has been historically confirmed as feminine is defined by the response and effect that particular behavior set evokes from Men. What we consider today as sexy behaviors and appearance were characteristics ‘selected-for’ that endured to become gender indicative aspects of being feminine.”

Is sluttiness feminine? Male readers here have emphatically argued otherwise. In any case, sluttiness was not “selected for.” From David Buss’ The Evolution of Desire:

Why men marry poses a puzzle.  Casual sex without commitment would have sufficed if all he needed was to reproduce.  So there must have been powerful adaptive advantages to committing years of investment to a woman. Most men can obtain a much more desirable mate if they are willing to commit.  The reason is that women desire a lasting commitment, and the most desirable women are in the best position to get what they want.

Tomassi also fails to mention that “sexy,” even as defined by men, is malleable. A hundred years ago, a glimpse of a well-turned ankle could produce an instant erection, as a man imagined the discovery of soft skin, and all the intimate parts of a woman. Today, the typical slut can only arouse curiosity about three things:

  1. Does she have pubic hair? Is it the same color as up top?
  2. Are her nipples pink or brown? Small or large?
  3. Will she let me cum on her face?

How sexy is that?

Tomassi again: “It’s a pity that Emma doesn’t understand how to be sexy, but she’s in the majority; precious few women know what turns men on, and still fewer have any capacity to effectively be so.”

I don’t understand his logic here. If, as Tomassi claims, slutty is always sexy, and the bars and clubs are jammed with slutty women, then how could those women be accused of not understanding what turns men on? According to Tomassi, fewer than “precious few” know how to be sexy. Yet sluts are everywhere. 

By choice, Emma Watson will never be a sex symbol. Undoubtedly, she will also never lack male admirers. I’m sure she knows how to be sexy when she feels sexy, which is admirable, and honest, and healthy. 

My acting headshot, age 40

Personally, I think she’s lovely, and yes, sexy. But then, I’m just a woman who wore a pixie cut once upon a time, what do I know.

 

 

 

 

 

2 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • http://www.decoybetty.com Deidre

    From comments I’ve read right here on hooking up smart, confidence is sexy and Ms Watson certainly exudes confidence. She a woman who knows who she isn’t and is confident in that – and that is definitely sexy to me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yea, Emma Watson sounds like an attractive person. And personally, I think she looks drop dead gorgeous in that photo.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    That’s you? I thought you were 40 now? You looked quite pretty, but I would say, humbly, that long hair would have looked even better. Long pretty hair is just such a plus.

    I like Emma Thompson, but trying too hard to be not sexy can sometimes be as annoying as trying too hard to be sexy. She doesn’t seem to encompass those attributes you spoke about in your previous post- no joie de vivre. Instead of trying too hard to be all cerebral about it, a “Nah, that’s not for me.” would have sufficed.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    …and yeah, it’s easy to say “I”m not trying to be sexy” when you’re as young an beautiful as Emma Watson. She doesn’t have to try. She just is.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Slutty is always sexy, but sexy doesnt equal slutty.

    Sexy doesnt mean marriable, it means fuckable.

    You can be sexy and marriable. Emma thompson is aiming for unfuckable / unmarriable. I´d still prefer her among the other girls in the sluts photo.

    The woman in the headshot isnt sexy.

    But it depends on who you compare her with.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The woman in the headshot isnt sexy.

      Take your foot out of your mouth Yohami, I said it’s MY headshot.

  • deti

    Susan:

    How Mary Tyler Moore of you.
    Who can turn the world on with her smile’

  • deti

    who can take a nothing date and suddenly make it all seem worthwhile

    You’re gonna make it after all

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    This is sexy sans the sluttiness, plenty of feminine and marriable

    http://media2.onsugar.com/files/2012/01/02/4/192/1922153/8343cdd6dc9115c9_Elizabeth-Olsen-CCA.xxxlarge_0.jpg

    God damn it if she´s a narcissist too. If so my compass needs to be fixed.

  • deti

    Tomassi is right that sexy is not always slutty, but slutty is always sexy.

    And sluttiness is not feminine. It doesn’t try to be. Sluttiness is overt, in your face sexiness. Sluttiness is not feminine but it is sexy.

    And then there’s beauty and cute, which can be either sexy or slutty, or neither. The photo of Emma Watson is beautiful. It could be sexy, but is not at all slutty.

    The MTM photo of Susan is cute, but not sexy and not slutty.

  • mrangry

    Who is this Tomassi douche. He sounds like a middle schooler trying to explain human sexuality. If this sad creature is over 15, he needs to be beaten to death.

  • deti

    This reminds me of some discussion somewhere in the ‘sphere about the difference between “pretty” and “hot”. You can be pretty but not hot, or hot but not pretty, or pretty and hot, or of course, neither hot nor pretty.

    Emma Watson and Susan’s MTM headshot are pretty but not hot.
    Christina Aguilera and Jennifer Love Hewitt are pretty and hot.
    The girls in the group shot in the OP are hot but not pretty.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    mrangry,

    My guess is that he’s not over 15. I’m pretty sure he’s Katie Perry’s biggest fan.

    deti,

    Slutty is not sexy. Slutty is like the cubic zirconia of sexy. Maybe it can pass for sexy if you’re drunk or stupid or in the dark, but otherwise, it’s an obvious fake.

    Yohami,

    What about Emma Watson doesn’t seem sexy to you?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’m sorry, but if you ask me Emma Watson is hot in that picture. Very much so.

  • NateWinchester

    Tomassi again: “It’s a pity that Emma doesn’t understand how to be sexy, but she’s in the majority; precious few women know what turns men on, and still fewer have any capacity to effectively be so.”

    Is Tomassi gay? Because Emma knows how to be plenty sexy. And beautiful.

    My friends and I usually break down women’s attractiveness as:
    Beautiful (greater = gorgeous)
    Cute (greater = “girl next door”, “as a button”, etc)
    Sexy (greater = hot)

    Or some combination of the above.

    Also: http://verydemotivational.memebase.com/2012/02/10/demotivational-posters-true-love-4/

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    She has a feminine delicate beautiful face, so she will be sexy regardless.

    But:

    Cold as a stone. Short air. Aloof. Strong make up that makes her look more focused / strong / in the masculine way. The vibe is depressive. She´s making emphasis in all the “wrong” stuff. Maybe thats good for her market.

  • J

    If this sad creature is over 15, he needs to be beaten to death.

    It’s a PUA thing; you wouldn’t understand. ;-)

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    We just were discussing about the joy and how that´s irresistible. Emma scores a 0 in joy = not sexy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami

      Emma scores a 0 in joy = not sexy.

      Are you basing this on one photograph of her? Or have you spent time in her company? I wonder what the basis is for your joy score of zero. Supposedly, she was cool and very down to earth at Brown University while she was there. In fact, she answered a question in class, and some wiseguy yelled, “Three points for Gryffindor!” She apparently thought it was hilarious.

  • NateWinchester

    Ah, now that Tomassi has clarified, I retract my previous statement.

  • deti

    Jesus M:

    I guess sexy is in the eye of the beholder. Slutty is working very hard at being sexy. Sexy can be subtle or overt. Slutty is overt sexiness.

    The photo of Watson is going for a beautiful look. Some could think it’s sexy. I think it is. It is definitely not slutty and it is not hot, IMHO.

    Paging John Locke and Plato.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hard to judge from the excerpt how full of joy she is. We’re given a glimpse into what she doesn’t like. That’s all. We’d have to assume that there’s more to her personality than not wanting to be a public sex symbol.

    As for the make up, I like the way it makes her eyes stand out. And she’s got nice lashes, or else nice fake lashes. The short hair doesn’t particularly do much for me beyond revealing the neck, but it doesn’t turn me off.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    That´s her default face, when she smiles / laughs she looks uncomfortable. She probably doesnt have that pieces together (yet?)

    http://www.google.com.ar/search?hl=es&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHJL_esAR452AR452&q=emma+watson&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&biw=1234&bih=597&ion=1&pdl=500&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=dpU1T9HaCMTf0QHg5JHhAg
    Compare her to the headshot (hey I just realized its Susan). She´s full of joy, just not the sexy kind.

    Or compare her to Elizabeth Olsen, random pics, that one is full of joy and wonder etc, and sexy

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Olsen

    http://www.google.com.ar/search?hl=es&cp=11&gs_id=d&xhr=t&q=elizabeth+olsen&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHJL_esAR452AR452&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&biw=1234&bih=597&ion=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=45U1T_uNOMGu0AHP5MW9Ag

  • J

    I’ve done every length of hair imaginable from pixie to waist length. There is no doubt men love longer hair. The pixie looks best on women with small faces and strong facial bones, like Emma or the young Audrey Hepburn. Long hair can really overwhelm a small face. When my hair is long, I usually pull it back or put it up. Otherwise, my face disappears into all that hair.

    SW, the pixie was cute on you. I like the current look better though, FWIW. They say the long bob with bangs is the go-to look for women our age. My current do is a long, layered bob.

  • Lokland

    Excluding the short hair Watson looks great.

  • J

    Yohami-I don’t find her look at all masculine. The short hair contrasts with her delicate features and strong, high cheekbones to make her look waif-like.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Agreed, Emma is a total waif. I don’t disagree that men prefer long hair – in fact, I ditched the pixie at my husband’s request.

      I have never had hair past my shoulders. I don’t look good in long hair. My hair is too fine, and long hair doesn’t suit my facial structure. It’s simply not true that women look better with long hair at any age, no matter what. In fact, most “wow” makeovers include cutting hair.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Overt sexiness is an oxymoron when it comes to women. Watson is correct when she mentions the fact that “less revealing” gives men “more to wonder about.” Sexiness in a woman is a hint, a suggestion, an implication or innuendo. It’s alluring. It has nothing to do with putting it all out there.

    Putting it all out there might give a guy a boner…. but I used to get boners riding the bus every morning when I was in middle school. Something about the hum of the engine. The engine, mind you, was not sexy.

  • deti

    Nate:

    the beautiful/cute/sexy trichotomy is pretty good too.

    Cute: Emma Watson, Katherine Heigl, Kate Hudson.

    Beautiful: Ava Gardner, Rita Hayworth, Kim Novak, Kate Middleton, Katy Perry, Jennifer Love Hewitt.

    Sexy: Christina Hendricks (as Joan Holloway on “Mad Men”), Marilyn Monroe, Megan Fox, Sophia Loren, Kim Kardashian, Jane Russell.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    See, that’s interesting, because while I agree that Elizabeth Olsen is a good looking woman, I think Emma Watson blows her out of the water. And yea, I just searched them both on Google.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    deti

    trichotomy!

    I agree with it but not with the list. I guess its all in the eye.

    Whatson is beautiful / cute, in an asexual / marmol way. For me at least.

    I wouldnt touch Kardashian with a stick and rubber gloves, or Loren… but its good our tastes are different.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    J

    Yea, Emma’s got a look similar to Hepburn, who I think was also gorgeous.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    Thats a good thing. You can take Watson, I´ll take Olsen.

  • VD

    Emma’s very understandable discomfort with the public aspect of her sex appeal is most likely the reason she has neutered herself with her boy-cut hair. Susan is correct and there is much more to sexy than slutty, but there is absolutely nothing sexy about Emma Watson. She’s attractive and has pretty features, but her present image is designed, consciously or unconsciously, to repel the male gaze.

    No doubt gay men will coo over how fashionable she is now and women who wish to improve their relative sex rank in comparison with her will declare her haircut to be cute. However, it is worth keeping in mind that babies and puppies are also cute, and most men don’t find them to be sexy either.

  • LS

    Slutty isn’t sexy anymore because nowadays it’s “chicks-can-have-sex-like-guys slutty” rather than old-fashioned feminine sluttiness.

    In other words, you’re trying too hard.

    Got alure?

  • VD

    Yea, Emma’s got a look similar to Hepburn, who I think was also gorgeous.

    Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on Judy Garland?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on Judy Garland?

      You didn’t ask me, but I think she was rather plain. I don’t think Emma Watson is plain, and Audrey Hepburn was stunning, IMO. She is another example of a beautiful woman who avoided the sex symbol treatment. She was classy and elegant, right to her dying day. And her SO was a man much younger than her, IIRC.

  • Tom

    The only person who has ever looked “best” in a pixie cut is Jane Wiedlin (The Go-Gos). And that was only effective in her 20s. She’s still trying to pull it off today… eeesh.

  • J

    Yohami–I think your problem with Emma is that she looks serious; Elizabeth Olsen looks happy and easy to make happy. As we discussed a thread or two back, men like happy.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    VD,

    I don’t remember finding her particularly attractive in the Wizard of Oz.

    I just googled her. In some pictures, she’s pretty; in others, she’s got a baby face going on.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    J

    That’s interesting. What’s odd is that I think one of the things I find more appealing about the Emma picture is her seriousness.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    J,

    I like happy, for sure. Its not her serious look what puts me off though. Its the coldness.

    Olsen serious

    http://imgb.azumare.com/actualidad/2012/01/13/elizabeth-olsen-trabajara-con-daniel.jpg

    still full of wonder / vulnerability

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,
    Sounds good. But you and Olsen get the couch.

    :P

  • J

    I’m pretty sure that some stylist took a look at Emma’s bone structure and intentionally tried to channel Audrey Hepburn. She was an icon; waif-like and vulnerable yet with an air of syle and sophistication. I went for that look on my wedding day with a Hepburn-like updo and simple sheath dress with an off the shoulder neckline. Simple, feminine and classy.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    It’s the vulnerability that’s doing it for you. Obvious from looking at that last Olsen picture. Watson still looks full of wonder.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Olsen appears to have a bunch of moles on her face.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    Yeah, probably.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yea, Watson’s frail and delicate features convey a certain vulnerability on their own. I think that’s why the serious look suits her.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    I think VD is right. However sexy Emma may already naturally be, this image is designed “to repel the male gaze.”

  • Good Luck Chuck

    You sure do need a lot of words to try to convince people that a teenage boy’s haircut is attractive on a woman.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You sure do need a lot of words to try to convince people that a teenage boy’s haircut is attractive on a woman.

      Let me state for the record what this post is not.

      This post is not a defense of the Pixie Cut. I understand that long hair is a fertility cue, and that men prefer it. I would agree that it’s rarely, or perhaps never, the look that makes a woman most attractive to men. Sometimes that’s not a woman’s highest priority.

  • C

    Great post. There are a lot of stupid things on that blog.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    So interesting, because the picture doesn’t repel my gaze at all, nor do I believe it was intended to do so. I see sexiness with a dash of independence, a sprinkle of disaffectedness, and a cup and a half of intelligence.

  • Chris_in_CA

    I’m partially with Yohami & partially with Jesus M here. Emma has become a very beautiful young woman. She has made smart choices, done well for herself, and has chosen her stance. Bravo.

    She’s also a porcelain doll in this picture. Cold, very reserved…Pygmalion’s statue before the transformation.

    I like seeing this look in museums…not on a living, breathing woman who (presumably) would like a relationship with a man who finds her sexy.

    But I may presume too much there. She may instead portray this image to repel any & all who attempt to think her sexy. Such a sweeping reaction is not uncommon – but no less damaging to one’s romantic future.

  • Mike C

    This should be good for at least 500+ comments

  • NateWinchester

    Cute: Emma Watson, Katherine Heigl, Kate Hudson.

    Beautiful: Ava Gardner, Rita Hayworth, Kim Novak, Kate Middleton, Katy Perry, Jennifer Love Hewitt.

    Sexy: Christina Hendricks (as Joan Holloway on “Mad Men”), Marilyn Monroe, Megan Fox, Sophia Loren, Kim Kardashian, Jane Russell.

    Nah, I’d definitely put Katy Perry in the sexy camp.

    Though also note, that women can make adjustments to shift themselves along the triangle. Rarely have I seen a woman ‘locked” into a category (though it happens – example: i’ve never seen any image of Megan Fox that was cute or pretty/beautiful).

    Example: Katherine Heigl cute- http://www.usmagazine.com/uploads/assets/celebrities/5361-katherine-heigl/1251228977_katherine_heigl_290x402.jpg
    Katherine Heigl sexy- http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KSgWu5Xhl1g/R9AsLj-vXoI/AAAAAAAAQfo/AOJzmUEGyFw/s400/Katherine+Heigl.jpg

    Christina Hendricks sexy- http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mmBw3uzPnJI/S-ARL0CSAqI/AAAAAAABODM/Wc4TxK_OLzo/s1600/christina_hendricks_cleavage_10.jpg
    Christiana Hendricks beautiful- http://tchadquarterly.com/tm/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/785cda00203894e3_christinahendricks.jpg

    …I’m sorry, what were we talking about again?

  • J

    It’s the vulnerability that’s doing it for you. Obvious from looking at that last Olsen picture. Watson still looks full of wonder.

    Yohami, I’d have said this has JM not beaten me to it.

    .I see sexiness with a dash of independence, a sprinkle of disaffectedness, and a cup and a half of intelligence

    Me too. ELizabeth Olsen, in contrast, looks less bright.

  • Anna

    Emma Watson is very young-looking and feminine and has the features to pull off short hair, like Natalie Portman. But I still think girls who look good with short hair would look better with long. I think that goes for Susan too – you have a lovely smile, btw. I still think you’d look prettier with longer hair.

    I suppose I have a problem with guys labeling girls as EITHER beautiful or sexy or cute. It’s gives a little bit of a madonne/whore syndrome vibe to me. She can be beautiful or cute and a perfect wife, but the hot ones are the hottest and not for marriage. I personally think that is something guys tell themselves, there are may sides to one woman.
    I see some girls play up certain sides more – Miranda Kerr is mainly cute (but sexy and beautiful IMO), Rosie Huntington-Whiteley is sexy, but maybe not so cute. Candice Swanepoel is sexy, cute and beautiful.
    I don’t see how slutty is always sexy. Megan Fox is a bundle of hair extensions, silicone, makeup and restylane. She’s about as attractive as anything at Madame Tussaud’s. I think a man fancying her would be a turn off for me.

  • Esau

    JM: Slutty is like the cubic zirconia of sexy.

    +3. A real gem, you might say.

  • Anacaona

    I actually side with Yohami (I know the pigs are flying on my window as we speak) Emma looks like she tries to be unnactractive to males. I like Olsen better she seems less worried about always looking pretty and makes all sorts of faces. I kind of like the lack of posse.
    Is very likely the niche she is trying to fit in though. The sexy market is overflowed and she played a very cerebral girl for 8 years. She can do more business and keep her fandom if she shows herself closer to Hermione than to Christina Hendricks. I don’t think she is faking it, just exaggerating something that is there.
    Funny enough Susan compares her to Natalie Portman someone that sells a similar image but then Portman has lost a lot of her fandom for her “smarter than you comments” less see if Emma handles it better. If anything I think she is probably aiming for Kiera Knightly niche now that Kiera is getting older. Time will tell.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Mike C.
    “This should be good for at least 500+ comments”

    Yeah, but we’ll probably see lots of pictures with people’s different visions of pretty vs. beautiful vs. cute vs. hot

    I also agree with VD. Emma’s Watson’s cut, while still attractive, does seem to be an attempt to deflect the dreaded “male gaze”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I also agree with VD. Emma’s Watson’s cut, while still attractive, does seem to be an attempt to deflect the dreaded “male gaze”.

      Emma Watson refuses to do dumb, or be an object of any kind. She was educated at the finest schools in England, with straight As throughout. She is extremely intelligent, very talented, and quite attractive, by any standard. As I said in the post, she’s going for dignity and class, male gaze be damned.

  • VD

    I don’t remember finding her particularly attractive in the Wizard of Oz.

    Whoosh!

    Megan Fox is a bundle of hair extensions, silicone, makeup and restylane. She’s about as attractive as anything at Madame Tussaud’s. I think a man fancying her would be a turn off for me.

    Unfortunately, most men would be a turn-off for you. It appears you don’t understand that it’s only the end result that matters to men. We don’t have the same problem with knowing how the sausage gets made that women do. I don’t have a thing for Fox – I think she’s the homeless man’s Angelina Jolie – but if you genuinely can’t see the sex appeal here, you really need to start with SMP 101.

  • Mike C

    Ehhh….its comment threads like this already that have led me to conclude people are going to believe what they are going to believe.

    Women DEFINE what is “masculine” for the functional pragmatic purpose of a man actually attracting a woman. Similarly, it is men who DEFINE what is “sexy” for the functional pragmatic purpose of a woman being sexually attractive to a man. Are these tastes/preferences universal across all men and women? No. Are their strong tendencies one way or another? Yes. Is being intelligent “masculine” for some women? Sure. But for the vast majority, no. Generally speaking, short hair is “less sexy” than long hair. And that pose in that picture by Emma isn’t sexy in the slightest.

    Emma Watson is a pretty woman IMO. She has good facial structure. She would look 10x sexier with long hair.

    There are many permutations on “sexy”. There is a sort of classy sexy, and yes there is a SLUTTY sexy. I keep referring to Badger’s 2 ladder theory but it seems like the concept just can’t get through. I can’t find the link now (it may actually have been on a Rollo comment thread) but it was a youtube video of Ava Gardner on some game show (whose line is it?). She was oozing sex appeal without being slutty at all. Her body language, her vocal tone, the way she was turning her face, her eye expressions, honest to God I was getting turned on just watching her WITHOUT her cleavage hanging out or something else slutty. At the same time, slutty is sexy too. or strip clubs wouldn’t be the huge money makers they are.

    In any case, there is a million light year chasm between slutty sexy and sort of going out of your way to basically disinfect yourself of any sexiness.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Similarly, it is men who DEFINE what is “sexy” for the functional pragmatic purpose of a woman being sexually attractive to a man.

      Of course. The question is, how do men define it? Is it a statement of fact that sluttiness is always sexy? There doesn’t seem to be consensus on this thread.

      Are Emma Watson’s feelings about parading her sexuality pitiful, inane, adolescent? Do they indicate that she is incapable of being sexy, or arousing sexual desire in males?

      This reminds me of the thread about Kate Bolick. Many of the men here claimed she was busted, downright hideous. Meanwhile, the Atlantic acknowledges that her looks, including her pics in the article and on the cover, made her article the most read in the magazine’s history. She got a TV deal, and last week a book deal rumored to be near $1 million. None of this would have happened unless she was perceived as extremely good looking. Both men and women can’t get enough of trying to figure out how this woman managed to not find Mr. Right.

  • Mike C

    Yeah, but we’ll probably see lots of pictures with people’s different visions of pretty vs. beautiful vs. cute vs. hot

    Probably.

    I also agree with VD. Emma’s Watson’s cut, while still attractive, does seem to be an attempt to deflect the dreaded “male gaze”.

    But why is it “still attractive”? Because her face is just THAT GOOD to overwhelm the very unsexy hair cut. She has more of the round doe eyes, smaller nose, softer facial structure. In other words, despite having her hair cut like a boy her face still trumps that by orders of magnitude.. Most women would not still be attractive with that haircut, and a woman with lesser facial features could be knocking her attractiveness way down going from long hair to short hair especially if she has really good long hair mixed with average to slightly below average facial features.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In other words, despite having her hair cut like a boy her face still trumps that by orders of magnitude..

      The short hair accentuates her facial features. Short hair makes eyes look larger, and cheekbones more pronounced. The focus on the face is magnified. Very beautiful women can not only pull off short hair, they can look more beautiful with it. By the way, a woman wearing her hair up has very much the same effect. That’s why women do it when they want to appear most beautiful and elegant.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Mike C.

    Yes, I agree. Her natural attractiveness trumps the less attractive haircut, but it’s a reduction nonetheless. There may be a small number of women who might look better with such a cut, but it’s a very small number indeed…

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Yes, I agree. Her natural attractiveness trumps the less attractive haircut, but it’s a reduction nonetheless. There may be a small number of women who might look better with such a cut, but it’s a very small number indeed…

    How about Michelle Williams? She has been sporting the same haircut for a long while.

  • ExNewYorker

    “How about Michelle Williams? She has been sporting the same haircut for a long while.”

    She pretty enough, again, to look good even with the short cut. But still looks better with longer hair (e.g. Blue Valentine).

    There have a been a few women I’ve thought looked better with that shorter do, but the fact I can’t recall them at the moment shows (at least to me), how rare that it…

  • asdf

    Slutty is the WalMart of sexy.

    You can be sexy without being WalMart, but you’ve got to put a lot more resources into the goods. On the bright side you can demand a better price.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    its comment threads like this already that have led me to conclude people are going to believe what they are going to believe.

    That will always be the case for most people about most things.

    At the same time, slutty is sexy too. or strip clubs wouldn’t be the huge money makers they are.

    That’s true, I suppose. Though I always envision slobbering men with no options at strip clubs. Either that or business men catering to clients who are slobbering fools with no options. Or business men who are slobbering fools with no sense of subtlety.

    Not that I have anything against businessmen, mind you.

  • Anna

    @ VD
    I can see the certain sex appeal in some photos, but not in her altogether. I don’t genuinely think a woman is sexy if it is only with maximum makeup in certain pictures. I know that men fantasize over pictures and not actual women, but I would never ‘go on’ about a woman like that. And no, I don’t think it’s only the end result which counts with all men, I know plenty men who don’t fancy women like Katie Price, due to her excessive fakeness.

  • Mike C

    That will always be the case for most people about most things.

    True. But that is because most people are either too ego-invested, emotionally connected, or ideologically committed to whatever their existing belief structure is in any particular area. Its hard and its dangerous to look at something and ask “is what I know or believe about X” just completely fucking wrong. The older I’ve gotten the more and more I realize that the majority of people cannot do this whether about politics, economics, intergender dynamics, whatever. The irony is that ultimately reality is reality and you can’t bend/conform reality to your belief structure.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    While I recognize that Watson’s facial features would objectively be considered attractive, she doesn’t do anything for me. Just seems asexual and androgynous. If I ran into her at a party, or if she was a friend of a friend, I couldn’t imagine myself thinking “I’d like to get to know this girl better.” Even with longer hair.

    I had never even heard of Elizabeth Olsen before, but she’s 100x more attractive to me. Would definitely want to get to know her better.

    Personally, I think Susan nailed it in the last post about warmth and happiness being very attractive.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    The irony is that ultimately reality is reality and you can’t bend/conform reality to your belief structure.

    That is supposed to be the job of hard sciences describe reality objectively. But this are social science or like my husband taught me: Physics is the only real science. The rest are just stamp collecting. :p

  • Jesus Mahoney

    See, and this is the problem with the rating system, because to me Olsen would be a 7 while Watson would be a 9. Or roughly, anyway…

  • Lokland

    I started at the photograph for a few minutes.
    It didn’t stir anything in me. Completely asexual (her not me).

  • modernguy

    “Sexy” is largely a function of having fewer opinions and thoughts. Opinionated is not alluring. A woman with too many strong opinions becomes masculine. Thinking is a masculine act in itself. This woman could grow her hair long and strike a feminine pose but as long as she’s telling us what shouldn’t and shouldn’t be she won’t be perceived as sexy. Yohami’s example on the other hand looks like she’s never thought about anything deeper than what shade of lipstick goes best with her outfit. Marylin Monroe is sexy not just because of her curvacious body, but because nobody can imagine her having a coherent thought. Her image is the distillation of sexiness because it doesn’t come with a message. If you want to be sexy, don’t divert the viewer’s attention with “personality” unless that personality is the embodiment of happiness and agreeability. Thinking is also the enemy of happiness, because the world just isn’t as it should be.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Are you basing this on one photograph of her? Or have you spent time in her company?

    Im basing it on our last night together, of course.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    The slutty ducklippers with the goombah don’t look particularly fertile. That whole whorish look makes me think my seed would find no purchase on that stony, contraceptive ground.

    Also, the ducklippers are exhibiting net behavior, Miss Watson filter behavior. Emma Watson requires an industrial-strength, pre-emptive nuclear strike cockblock. That’s the reason for her stand-offish looks and attitude. These behaviors don’t evolve for no reason, you know.

    Is there some bad blood between you and Mr. Tomassi?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mule

      The slutty ducklippers with the goombah don’t look particularly fertile. That whole whorish look makes me think my seed would find no purchase on that stony, contraceptive ground.

      So….sluts are not sexy?

      Is there some bad blood between you and Mr. Tomassi?

      Eh, I don’t think either one of us is losing any sleep. I find his “femcentric” shtick tedious. He slaps it on every post whether it makes sense or not. In this case, it does not. He may have deliberately skewed the truth here, but I suspect he just didn’t bother to read the source material.

      The material point is — a woman’s choice not to slang her body around like some Las Vegas stripper does not mean, not should it communicate, that she is not sexy, is incapable of being sexy, feeling sexy, or acting sexy. Tomassi derides Watson for refusing to dish up her body on a platter as wanking material.

  • Annoyed

    google emma watson-boxnightclub
    emma watson-mtv movie awards after show

    Then tell me if you find her classy and holding true to her words.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    modernguy

    “Sexy” is largely a function of having fewer opinions and thoughts. [etc]

    You´ve got issues.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Hair — Longer hair is better, in my opinion.

    I think Emma Watson looks much better with long hair. She is growing it out, just slowly.

    She looks very sexy here:

    http://www.amillionlives.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Emma-Watson-Biography.jpg

  • Candide

    Pixie cut is decidedly asexual. Certified boner-killer.

    Why isn’t this a widely known fact? Are women that ignorant?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Pixie cut is decidedly asexual. Certified boner-killer.

      Oh please. You couldn’t get it up for Emma Watson?

      Why isn’t this a widely known fact? Are women that ignorant?

      Well, maybe not all women are after sprouting boners.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Hope, yeah.

    But she´s tense whenever she “smiles”. Like she has intestinal problems. She looks more relaxed and herself when she has the void porcelain pose.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    modernguy,

    clap clap clap! sexy for you

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhshzuVnlsA

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    I like the long hair in that pic, but not the fact that her hair doesn’t match her eyebrows.

    The pixie cut doesn’t do anything for me, but, at least on her, it’s not a boner killer.

  • Charm

    I’d like to say that I’m surprised Susan was 40 in that head shot. She doesnt look a day over 30 in it to me. I assume Susan wasn’t big into tanning?

    I’d also like to say that Emma Watson looks good with her hair cut as well. The pixi is something only a small fraction of women can pull off, and is definitely overplayed but at the end of the day its hair. It will grow back. She does have great cheekbones though, and that helps a ton.

    Also, I think sexy is only definable by the woman or man at hand. If a woman feels sexy dressed like a bar slut, who am I to tell her not to. Just like if a woman feels great covered up modestly from head to toe. I think the first commenter got it right, sexy is confidence. An attractive man or woman with no confidence would be a massive turn off.

    I think Emma Watson has time to find her idea of sexy. People always get confused because they are trying to define themselves within the parameters that others use. I’ve found that is the quickest path to unhappiness.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Charm

      Also, I think sexy is only definable by the woman or man at hand. If a woman feels sexy dressed like a bar slut, who am I to tell her not to.

      I was thinking about this. If a woman does not feel sexy, she’s not, or at least not at her maximum sexiness. A man might say, “hell, yeah, I’ll hit that ducklipped skank!” and he won’t care where her head is (figuratively), that she’s vapid, and going through the motions to get him off.

      I’ve had sex when I didn’t feel sexy, and I can tell you that it is about as arousing as brushing one’s teeth.

      When a woman feels sexy, and aroused, the sex is going to reflect that.

      The most important sex organ is the brain. Maybe some men don’t care, but in my experience they do. A lot.

      People always get confused because they are trying to define themselves within the parameters that others use.

      That’s precisely my objection. If Emma Watson wishes to reserve her sexiness for her SO, why do we resent it? No one gave Meryl Streep grief for not being a bimbo with breast implants.

  • Charm

    Lol, I assumed you weren’t into tanning because your skin looked great.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Also see: http://www.reddit.com/r/EmmaWatson/top/?sort=top&t=all

    Aside from the top link and a few others, you can see what she looks like with longer hair.

    Hair can always grow back out…

    Yeah I have a slight bit of girl crush on her. :P

  • modernguy

    Maybe you’re into “strong” women Yohami. To each his own. Just make sure she uses lots of lube with that strap on, for your own safety.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Yohami, you only think she looks stiff because you haven’t seen her various expressions.

    http://i.imgur.com/oYeJm.jpg

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      That comparison between Emma W and Kristen Stuart is hilarious!

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    modernguy,

    Just make sure she uses lots of lube with that strap on, for your own safety.

    That´s the voice of the experience.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Hope,

    Compared to Stewart, Watson is a sea of emotions.

    Stewart pulls the sexy better though.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Stewart pulls the sexy better though

      Hmmm, how does this square with your comment that Emma W isn’t sexy because she has zero joy? Kristen Stuart appears to have had her smile muscles wired shut.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’d say Watson over Stewart, but I like the Watson/Hepburn look. I guess I have a type. Who knew?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    By the way, I suspect the haircut is also a calculated business move. She deliberately did a pixie cut because otherwise she would be pigeonholed as “Hermione” for the rest of her acting career, thus her career would be over as soon as the Harry Potter series were over.

    It generated shock and publicity, but not in a “sex tape” way — it was actually her way of gaining more female fans. Clearly girls love her pixie cut, because now she is less of a sex symbol. An actress has to choose her path early on, whether to be a sex symbol or to be taken “seriously” for her acting credentials. Emma Watson took her gamble, and it paid off because now she no longer looks like Hermione. She looks like “Emma.”

    That is not to say I prefer the short pixie cut, but just giving some perspective about the way these things work in advertising, business and show biz.

  • modernguy

    Yohami: Clever, dude. Get back to playing your harp or whatever it is you do.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, when did you act?

    I agree with what Watson says, though I do dislike really short hair. She would look better if she just grew it out, she doesn’t have to dress like a hooker.

    Oh, and, slutty is always sexy definitely does not apply to me. I really hate the slut look. I don’t care how much it reveals, it’s a massive turn-off for me most of the time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Susan, when did you act?

      In the 90s, mostly, in Boston. I gave it up after I realized I hadn’t personally put my kids to bed in over a year.

      I really hate the slut look. I don’t care how much it reveals, it’s a massive turn-off for me most of the time.

      Good to know. We have one guy at least saying that slutty women are not sexy.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    you only think she looks stiff because you haven’t seen her various expressions.

    You know that was a hateful campaign from the potterheads right?

  • Lokland

    My personal opinion on the sexy trifecta,

    slutty- ONS material
    cute- everything
    beautiful- everything with a stronger preference on locking it down

  • Charm

    @ModernGuy

    Thinking is not a masculine act in and of itsself. That is one of the dumbest thing I have ever heard someone say. Its only considered to be a masculine act because more men than women are thinking oriented. So, it has become associated with men more than women. Just like more men tend to be taller than most women, but height is not masculine.

    A woman with opinions, especially well researched and well thought out, is not hurting anyone. When people dislike this behavior, it’s because they feel threatened by it. Its like how people average intelligence hate those that have higher IQs because they make them look/feel bad. Or how average looking people dislike those that we born with great features. Or how betas see alphas. I see people with strong opinions as people that can teach you something. Everyone has to stand for something. At least they know exactly what that something is. Male or female.

    How do I know this? Because I am a thinking oriented woman. Funny thing is that men who form their own thoughts and opinions and are confident about them have no problem with a thinking oriented woman. Just an observation that I’ve made.

    Sorry to go off thread Susan, that comment was just annoying and a weak shot.

  • VD

    You didn’t ask me, but I think she was rather plain.

    It was a joke, actually. You see, men who adore Emma Watson in teenage boy mode, Audrey Hepburn, and Judy Garland aren’t generally known for their sexual interest in women. But you’re correct, Watson is pretty and Hepburn was very pretty. Judy Garland was quite plain.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      Of course, I was rather slow on the uptake there. BTW, I want to thank you for not expressing a harsh judgment of my pixie cut. I know how you feel about short hair on women, and almost didn’t post it for fear of what you might say. :)

      You are a gentleman, though I doubt you want to hear it.

  • Mike C

    Pixie cut is decidedly asexual. Certified boner-killer.

    Why isn’t this a widely known fact? Are women that ignorant?

    See my comment #70.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    VD,

    Idk. I usually don’t dish about women with gay men, but I’ll take your word for it.

    If Watson and Hepburn are pretty, why would they appeal more to gay men?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    From what I can tell, Emma Watson literally grew up in front of a huge audience, starting from age 11, pre-puberty. She probably wasn’t all that comfortable with the growing amount of sexual attention she got starting from very young. Most of us girls get through those years quietly, without so many guys oogling and loving the barely-hit-puberty look.

    So now she’s giving herself a bit of a break from all those years of being Hermione, being incredibly sexualized at a young age, and also managed by managers and producers and makeup artists and directors. It is to her credit that she didn’t flip out like Britney Spears and Lindsay Lohan. If I were to psychoanalyze, I think the pixie stage is actually her trying to reclaim and relive her relatively innocent youth, before men saw her as a sexual object.

    Now she is growing it out again, and so now she can slowly ease herself back and re-adjust to womanhood.

    http://i.imgur.com/c8vmz.jpg

    In my opinion, a haircut is not just a haircut. I do not think this is something that men completely understand about women. A big drastic haircut is something done often for emotional and psychological reasons. After I had my stillbirth, I cut my waist-length hair very short and donated nearly 12 inches to kids with cancer. I didn’t look as attractive anymore, but I didn’t want to look attractive. I was in mourning.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In my opinion, a haircut is not just a haircut. I do not think this is something that men completely understand about women. A big drastic haircut is something done often for emotional and psychological reasons. After I had my stillbirth, I cut my waist-length hair very short and donated nearly 12 inches to kids with cancer. I didn’t look as attractive anymore, but I didn’t want to look attractive. I was in mourning.

      Hope, that is very moving. I agree that women express themselves in a variety of ways with their hair.

  • modernguy

    Charm: you’re wrong. Thinking is masculinity. It’s adversarial in nature because it’s exclusive and adversarial is the opposite of feminine which is accepting, nurturing, willing, submissive. The more opinionated you are the more barriers you put up. The kind of women you are talking about are already over the hill “adults”. The sexiest girls are early 20s girls who have no coherent opinions on even the most trivial issues. Just go into any club. They don’t need to, because it’s at best unrelated to being sexy and usually an impediment, and they know it. At least the ones who arent too smart for their own good do.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    If Watson and Hepburn are pretty, why would they appeal more to gay men?

    Gay men usually have androgynous aesthetics if you see the things they design and sell in fashion magazines they got for the opposite of enhancing fertility cues. The more closer to a man the woman looks the more appealing to them. Is a bit like women making friends with effeminate gays more than the straight ones. They have more things in common. YMMV.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ana,

    That’s interesting. Though aside from Watson’s pixie cut I don’t see anything particularly unfeminine about her. Or Hepburn for that matter.

    Garland as asexual I can see… Just not the other two.

  • http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com dannyfrom504

    emma is NOT sexy.

    it’s true slutty is fact sexy. and as it was pointed out, it’s overt and screams, “PAY ATTENTION TO MEEEEEE!!!!” but sexy is not being slutty. my 2 cent’s.

    to me sexy is a woman who’s confidant, demure and pretty without wearing 2 lbs of makeup. my good friend sofi is sexy. she’s absolutely gorgeous and she’s very humble and low-key about it. i tease her incessantly.

    but she does it right.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    That’s interesting. Though aside from Watson’s pixie cut I don’t see anything particularly unfeminine about her. Or Hepburn for that matter.

    Well their facial structures are minimum enough to go androgynous with few changes I guess. Their body types are also not voluptuous and their personal style gives more room for that too. Try the pixie cut in someone like angelina jolie or the androgynous clothing in J-Lo and it doesn’t work they have fertility cues like a fecundity goddess. So is a combo of reasons.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Anacanoa, here you go, Angelina Jolie and pixie cut:

    http://www.ourvanity.com/photos/Angelina-Jolie-Hairstyle-Evolution-1998.jpg

  • Jesus Mahoney

    modernguy,

    Can you explain to us how thinking is necessarily adversarial in nature? You don’t feel like it’s possible to have thoughts about acceptance or nurturing or even submission? And if you can’t have thoughts about nurturing, then how is it possible to be a good parent or teacher? And if having no thoughts is sexy, then I’m assuming you’re targeting only mentally challenged women as potential spouses?

  • Candide

    Mike C, that’s very true. I’d add that the self-esteem movement and the constant brainwashed need to be “confident” have erased people’s desire and ability to question themselves and what they think they know. Because doubting yourself means not confident and low self-esteem, right?

  • Lindsay

    Sexy to me is:

    –Angelina Jolie
    –January Jones (awful personality though)
    –Portia and Ellen
    –Winona Ryder
    –D’Arcy Wretzky in the 90s
    –Shirley Manson
    –Scarlett Johannsen
    –Christy Turlington
    –Fiona Apple
    –Joan Jett
    –(Certain eras of) Brody Dalle
    –(Certain eras of) Courtney Love

    Aside from a lot of them being ‘Bad Girls,’ I don’t see one overarching theme. I do tend to like tall, thin people of both genders though, so there’s that. Oh, and blondes. Love blondes.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Emma Watson refuses to do dumb, or be an object of any kind.

    If that were true she wouldnt be posing for a magazine. She just wants to be a different type of object.

    male gaze be damned.

    While gay gaze is all way up.

  • Lindsay

    Oh, forgot:

    –Shannen Doherty, Joey Lauren Adams, and Claire Forlani in Mallrats. And other movies, of course.

    I’m old-timey. No idea who the young lady in Susan’s post is. = D

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    While gay gaze is all way up.

    And female gaze both for lesbians and for straight girls that identify with her smart,non threatening self.

  • modernguy

    Charm you’re wrong on so many points that it’d be a waste of time to go through them, but for example here’s one:

    ” Its like how people average intelligence hate those that have higher IQs because they make them look/feel bad.”

    It’s not the IQ, its the way you carry yourself. Einstein, for example, is a beloved figure because he was affable and personable despite his high IQ. VD, for example, is the opposite. A pompous ass who flaunts his mensa certificate like a dirty diaper.

  • Mike C

    Emma Watson refuses to do dumb, or be an object of any kind. ***She was educated at the finest schools in England, with straight As throughout. She is extremely intelligent, very talented,**** and quite attractive, by any standard. As I said in the post, she’s going for dignity and class, male gaze be damned.

    Susan,

    And that makes her extremely intelligent and very talented. Those are very good traits to have whether male or female. They add points to her human being score, and likely add points to her long-term mate potential. But they don’t have anything to do with “sexy” which was the main point of discussion in Rollo’s post that you addressed here. Someone can be smart, and talented, and generious and NOT sexy. And someone can be dumb, not very talented, and selfish, and sexy.

    I applaud her efforts for dignity and class, but it is ludicrous to suggest a mini-skirt is NOT sexy. I don’t understand the conflating of traits. Why can’t we just say talented is good and admire talent rather then try to spin that talent is sexy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      But they don’t have anything to do with “sexy” which was the main point of discussion in Rollo’s post that you addressed here.

      I didn’t say they did. But Rollo said that she was a woman incapable of being sexy, confused about her sexuality, pitiable in her lack of understanding of what attracts men. He said that after grossly misinterpreting what she said about being sexy – in photo shoots, with photographers looking up her skirt, etc. At age 18!

      I applaud her efforts for dignity and class, but it is ludicrous to suggest a mini-skirt is NOT sexy.

      I think you’ve missed the point. She doesn’t say that men don’t find miniskirts sexy. Of course, she knows they do. She is stating that she doesn’t feel comfortable doing “sexy” by wearing a miniskirt. She is modest by nature.

      Rollo doesn’t know it, but women have actually figured out what gives men boners. Stripping, pole dancing, kissing other girls, hey how about double penetration?! That doesn’t mean that we’re interested in delivering that. As women, we choose how to express our sexuality, knowing that we will attract some men and not others.

      Emma Watson is managing her image. She doesn’t want to be confused with some slampiece.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    That’s why women do it when they want to appear most beautiful and elegant.

    I wonder if men like that. I personally hate hair up. if you remember my wedding pic I used my hair down I don’t think I ever though to myself “I want to wear my hair up and I will feel prettier/sexier” In fact I don’t think I have more than two pics taken with my hair up.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    But hair up is still long hair. Fertility cue remains while pulling off the same effect as short hair.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But hair up is still long hair. Fertility cue remains while pulling off the same effect as short hair.

      Hmm, I’m not sure about this. When hair is up, it’s not at all clear how long it is.

      Also, long hair is just one of many fertility cues. A woman like Emma Watson with clear skin, big bright eyes, very symmetrical features, full lips – she’s signaling high fertility, even with a pixie cut.

      OK, I googled short-haired beauties. Some interesting names, from over the years:

      Halle Berry
      Audrey Tautou
      Juliette Binoche
      Audrey Hepburn
      Mia Farrow
      Natalie Portman
      Katie Holmes
      Sophia Loren
      Rhianna
      Charlize Theron
      Ashley Judd
      Natalie Portman
      Renee Zellweger
      Twiggy – ever heard of her?twiggy
      Carey Mulligan
      Ginnifer Goodwin

      Even Angelina Jolie rocked super short hair at one point.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona
  • modernguy

    Jesus Mahoney: yeah man, I’m looking to marry a retard. Clearly you understood what I meant to say. I just don’t understand why you would get offended though, are you a “mangina”?

    Obviously I don’t mean thinking in the sense of saying to yourself “I love my kids and I want to do more for them.” Or, “I would like a bowl of Cheerios. right now.”

    Thinking in the sense of apprehending the state of the world around you and determining how that differs from the way things should be. That in itself is a masculine act because its an act of leadership, or at least a precurser to it. And with all the harping about “leading” in the manosphere, the rest should follow.

  • Mike C

    The short hair accentuates her facial features. Short hair makes eyes look larger, and cheekbones more pronounced. The focus on the face is magnified. Very beautiful women can not only pull off short hair, they can look more beautiful with it. By the way, a woman wearing her hair up has very much the same effect. That’s why women do it when they want to appear most beautiful and elegant.

    Very beautiful women can pull off a lot of looks. There are probably some women who might still look beatiful bald, but that wouldn’t be a reason to go shave your head. You can go back through the comments already posted and see the majority of guys would think she is more beautiful with long hair. I really don’t know what else to say. Maybe to some/most women shorter hair is more beautiful. I can’t argue that. Do women want to be more beautiful for men or other women?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      You can go back through the comments already posted and see the majority of guys would think she is more beautiful with long hair.

      That was never up for debate. I specifically clarified what the post was not about, namely this.

      A much more salient question is whether slutty is always sexy. I’m genuinely curious to know that. Jesus and Escoffier say no. Others have said yes.

      When you see a woman who is very slutty, and some part of your brain registers that 100 dicks have been there before you, does that affect your perception of her as desirable?

      Do women want to be more beautiful for men or other women?

      Sometimes women wish to express themselves without regard for what others think of their appearance. Many women dress to please themselves, not others.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I just don’t understand why you would get offended though, are you a “mangina”?

    Wow, you’re sensitive. Who said I got offended? I hope you find a woman who loves kids and cold cereal, bro. Nice to see you aiming high.

  • Mike C

    I wonder if men like that. I personally hate hair up. if you remember my wedding pic I used my hair down I don’t think I ever though to myself “I want to wear my hair up and I will feel prettier/sexier” In fact I don’t think I have more than two pics taken with my hair up.

    I *LOVE* an up-do especially kind of in the contour of sort of ponytailish.

  • modernguy

    “Emma Watson refuses to do dumb, or be an object of any kind. ***She was educated at the finest schools in England, with straight As throughout. She is extremely intelligent, very talented,**** and quite attractive, by any standard. As I said in the post, she’s going for dignity and class, male gaze be damned.”

    The problem with this is, how can you be attractive, “male gaze be damned”. If you’re not trying to be attractive to the male gaze, what are you trying to be attractive to? The grass?

  • modernguy

    ” Wow, you’re sensitive. Who said I got offended? I hope you find a woman who loves kids and cold cereal, bro. Nice to see you aiming high.”

    You obviously were, and still are. Anyway loves kids and cold cereal sounds pretty good. Something like a kindergarten teacher. Who are you looking for, a Condoleeza Rice?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    If you’re not trying to be attractive to the male gaze, what are you trying to be attractive to? The grass?

    Putting that masculine brain to work, I see. Terrific. How about, she’s not just trying to be attractive?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Anacanoa, I really don’t care enough about the fight. I think they’re both pretty. I personally couldn’t pull off any of those looks. If I try to do anything except a normal smile, I look ridiculous. :P

  • Jesus Mahoney

    modernguy,

    I’ve actually got a kindergarten teacher reading a book right next to me ATM. She’s more of an oatmeal gal, though.

  • modernguy

    There you go Mahoney you were right all along and you didn’t even know it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    modernguy,

    No worries. I always know it when I’m right.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Mike C
    Do women want to be more beautiful for men or other women?

    I don’t know about the average non-celebrity woman, but I can see why a famous actress, model or singer would want to be more beautiful for other women.

    This discussion of Emma reminds me of UK pop star Frankie Sandford. When she started out as a young teenager, she had long hair and appealed to young boys and girls alike. After she entered her twenties and joined a different girl group, she cut her hair really short. It was a pretty good strategic move because all the other four girls in the group have really long hair. That makes Frankie instantly the most recognizable one. I think this different, “edgy” look is the reason she has even more female fans than male ones. Of course the men would prefer her with long hair, but she has a career to think of, too.

  • GudEnuf

    Susan: “She got a TV deal, and last week a book deal rumored to be near $1 million. None of this would have happened unless she was perceived as extremely good looking. “

    Doesn’t that make you angry? Shouldn’t a woman be able to get a million dollar book deal based on her talent alone, just like a man?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Doesn’t that make you angry? Shouldn’t a woman be able to get a million dollar book deal based on her talent alone, just like a man?

      She’s a good writer in a nice package. Why should that make me angry? Male and female models make the big bucks for the packaging alone. So do many actors, e.g. Keanu Reeves.

      The fact is, being good looking helps a lot. A good looking woman at 40 talking about being single is a heck of a lot more compelling than an unattractive woman telling the same story, because everyone will obviously attribute her failure to her lack of looks. Kate Bolick’s story suggests something else – that good looking, educated, successful women – the dream children of feminism – can’t find husbands, and may not even want them.

  • Mike C

    I don’t know about the average non-celebrity woman, but I can see why a famous actress, model or singer would want to be more beautiful for other women.

    This discussion of Emma reminds me of UK pop star Frankie Sandford. When she started out as a young teenager, she had long hair and appealed to young boys and girls alike. After she entered her twenties and joined a different girl group, she cut her hair really short. It was a pretty good strategic move because all the other four girls in the group have really long hair. That makes Frankie instantly the most recognizable one. I think this different, “edgy” look is the reason she has even more female fans than male ones. Of course the men would prefer her with long hair, but she has a career to think of, too.

    Bellita,

    This is an excellent point that I believe Hope made as well. Women may have very good strategic reasons to alter their appearance or customize their look to be *LESS SEXY*, i.e. to REDUCE their sex appeal to men. This may be particulary true for actresses especially young ones who want to build their careers as “serious actresses” instead of eye candy. This is actually quite smart. Helen Mirren and Meryl Streep are still working on the big screen…Racquel Welch is not. So for Emma, this may be some shrewd calculated career move.

    But think about what it means to SEXY. What is embedded in being sexy? Sex appeal. The desire to have sex with, of course. So for heterosexuals, the notion of a woman defining or commenting on what is “sexy” in another woman almost is surreal absurdity. Does her “sexiness” make you want to go do some carpet munching on her? If not, what the heck are we talking about. I was trying to think about the idea of saying what do I find sexy in a man. The very thought is ridiculous.

    Now if Emma doesn’t want to be sexy, that is her prerogative. I can respect that. I respect it even more if it is a career move. What I don’t respect, and find ridiculous are attempts to redefine sexiness as a burka instead of a mini-skirt, or a bald head instead of gorgeous lengthy hair, or fat instead of a trim figure.

    Let me be clear. There is a lot more to life, being a good person, being a good woman then being sexy for a man. That said, it is just silly to try and redefine sexiness to maybe what some women would hope it would be instead of what it is in reality. That is no different from the “nice guy” who thinks he should win the girl over by bringing her flowers and candy on a first date and supplicating.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    GudEnuf,

    Doesn’t that make you angry? Shouldn’t a woman be able to get a million dollar book deal based on her talent alone, just like a man?

    Or just like a woman? Anne Rice and J.K.Rowling arent particularly attractive.

    Now I cant think of a male using his looks to get a million dollar book deal.

    If anything being an attractive woman is a plus. The discrimination is against males.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Now I cant think of a male using his looks to get a million dollar book deal.

      I recently read an article about how when publishers have good looking male authors, large photos are generally a key part of the marketing campaign for the book. Ugly authors get print only.

      The beauty bias holds for both sexes in general, not just publishing:

      Consider the following: over his career, a good-looking man will make some $250,000 more than his least-attractive counterpart, according to economist Daniel Hamermesh

      In Kate Bolick’s case though – her looks are directly relevant to the subject matter of the book – which is about the reality of even very physically attractive women remaining single.

  • Lindsay

    Do women want to be more beautiful for men or other women?

    Me? Women by far, but not for the reasons hetero women do. For every 5 men I find hot, I find 95 women hot. So I understand the male gaze more than people give me credit for – academically AND biologically. I like high femmes, and that’s not common in the GLBT world. I like women more feminine than myself, in fact, so dating is harder for me than for the guys of HUS. The women I’m attracted to will pick you over me, aside from a rare, drunken moment to attract a guy, and I don’t like fake lesbians. They hurt my feelings, and I don’t enjoy making displays in public, either – it seems cheap to me personally. I’m probably a 4.5 out of 6 on the Kinsey, if 6 is they gayest. My husband’s probably a 1 or 1.5 if 0 is the straightest. Our arrangement works out b/c we’re perfectly suited to each other emotionally, and we both get to date women too. He can have more/rougher P-in-V sex, which isn’t my favorite, and I can have oral and tribadism with someone who has “equipment” he lacks.

    I HATE the Kardashian/Jersey Shore look, I gotta say. In fact, I hate orange skin generally. I had a friend who’s Spanish (from Spain, alas she has since moved away from me and to Brooklyn) and naturally brown, and she’s so much hotter than the white American chick fake-bake look. Props to Susan for keeping her skin real. Don’t tan if you don’t have the coloring, ladies. It ages you faster than ANYTHING else.

    Re: Short hair vs. long hair, in terms of practicality, it’s not just about face shape. I have the face shape for short hair, but not the hair type for it. Susan mentioned having fine hair, and I couldn’t say if that hair-type works well cut short or grown out. My own hair, after puberty, blew out into a big, frizzy, wavy puff (I’m white, but I use exclusively black hair-care products, to give you an idea), because my family is Italian and Jewish, and that’s just the hair type we have. My brother’s hair did the same thing at puberty, as did my mom’s, grandpa’s, aunt’s, grandma’s, etc. Only my pops has fine, straight hair.

    I tried a pixie during my punk days, and oh jeez, was it work to keep it looking decent. I wanted so badly to have a cute, spiky ‘do like Joan Jett or Billy Idol, but with curly hair, if I didn’t flatten it out within an inch of its life with extra-strength hair glue, or it happened to be humid that day, I wound up looking like a clown. Or a poodle, depending on your opinion.

    Starting in my mid-20s, I grew my hair to slightly past my shoulders, and cut it in long layers to remove some of the frizz and heft. Before I began layering it, I also looked like a poodle. It works. I can’t go much longer, like Susan, but for opposite reasons – my hair will break off or form white-girl dreadlocks, which are so not cool. But wearing it down is just too much work – it involves conditioning it 3-4 times in the shower, straightening it manually, and usually, blow-drying it, which also causes it to break off. For best results, I have to treat it with pure coconut oil (seriously, it’s a tub of grease), and that gets messy and annoying.

    So I wear it up. Men seem to like it. Women, on the other hand, frequently demand to know why I’m “wasting” long hair in an up-do. The whole “it’s convenient” and “it complements my face better” doesn’t seem to be enough for them. Shrug. I do what I want. It just so happens guys like it. But I kinda see how it can be tempting to dress for other women. I just can’t be bothered to care. My looking good, preserving the health of my hair, and minimizing time spent on grooming are the priorities to me.

    Oh, I forgot a woman on my list: Laura Prepon as a blonde…helloooo, Mama! I find myself watching her awful new sitcom Are You There Chelsea? just because I like to look at Laura.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lindsay

      Your comment got me thinking. I personally believe human sexuality is on a spectrum, definitely not black or white. If that’s true, then some women will have a good sense of what sexy is in other women. Of course, they may define sexy differently than men do. Similarly, some men may be clueless as to which guys are hot, while others may have a definitive opinion.

  • Lindsay

    (Note: When I say I don’t style my hair for women, I mean straight women, obv. Qu**r women don’t care about my hair so much – either I’m their type or I’m not butch enough, and wearing hair up or down isn’t a big enough deal either way in the butch vs. femme debate.)

  • JQ

    There is, I think, a difference between not knowing how to be sexy, not wanting to be sexy, and not wanting to be sexy for the general public. Not that–for a woman who may be intentionally trying to make herself a hard subject for the legions on photographers looking for a quick buck selling pictures of her knickers on the internet–it will always be easy to tell the difference.

    Statements to the effect that she finds attempts to make her look sexy for public appearances or photo-shoots embarrassing could be read as declarations that she would prefer to save sexy for whatever lucky man she’s in a relationship with as opposed to the general public.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JQ

      Statements to the effect that she finds attempts to make her look sexy for public appearances or photo-shoots embarrassing could be read as declarations that she would prefer to save sexy for whatever lucky man she’s in a relationship with as opposed to the general public.

      Thank you! That was the point I was trying to make! Being confused and uncomfortable about removing her kit (what’s a kit?) for just anyone is very different than being asexual.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike C has a great point. I don’t particularly care for the slut look, but I do enjoy the look of a mini skirt on a woman with a great pair of legs. I actually like the 1 of 3 rule thing that Sue likes to promote. It’s not fool proof, but it’s a guideline that I think works most of the time.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Mike C
    Does her “sexiness” make you want to go do some carpet munching on her?

    I lol-ed at this one! (And of course the answer is “No”! Hahahaha!)

    There is a lot more to life, being a good person, being a good woman then being sexy for a man. That said, it is just silly to try and redefine sexiness to maybe what some women would hope it would be instead of what it is in reality.

    That first sentence is exactly what I wanted to add at the end of my earlier comment but couldn’t articulate, and the second sentence is the perfect counterpoint to it. :)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Well their facial structures are minimum enough to go androgynous with few changes I guess.

    Sure, Hepburn and Watson aren’t voluptuous, but they have feminine, refined features if you ask me. I don’t see their faces being androgynous in the least. I think that’s a major stretch.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Sure, Hepburn and Watson aren’t voluptuous, but they have feminine, refined features if you ask me. I don’t see their faces being androgynous in the least. I think that’s a major stretch.

    I say minimum enough, to go for that. Not that they were some people faces can go for one gender to another easier. If you ever watched the movie to Wong Foo thanks for everything Julie Newmar. John Legizamo looked amazingly feminine, Patrick Swayze errr more or less now Wesley Snipes…for real anyone thinking he was a woman needs to get their eyes checked.

  • Sassy6519

    This is a very interesting post to me. I like the fact that there are so many different opinions floating around in the comments. This kind of discourse gets me pumped up.

    Anyway, I think Emma Watson is pretty, but not sexy. I think there is a very clear distinction between the two. I do think she looks good with her pixie cut though. Only a small subset of women can effectively pull it off.

    I rocked a Halle Berry inspired pixie cut for 2 years, and I loved it. It was super easy to maintain, and I didn’t have to worry about tackling a mountain of hair every morning. I’ve since grown my hair back out, but I might cut it again someday.

  • purplesneakers

    Hope said:

    In my opinion, a haircut is not just a haircut. I do not think this is something that men completely understand about women. A big drastic haircut is something done often for emotional and psychological reasons. After I had my stillbirth, I cut my waist-length hair very short and donated nearly 12 inches to kids with cancer. I didn’t look as attractive anymore, but I didn’t want to look attractive. I was in mourning.

    YES. I don’t think this can be emphasized enough. I have had two drastic haircuts in my life: 1) when I was in high school and chopped off my butt-length hair to shoulder-length and donated it to Locks of Love, and it was a Big Deal to me because, being raised by a traditional Indian mom, I hadn’t been allowed to cut my hair until then; 2) when I was in college and depressed I cut it into a pixie cut. While I have big eyes and a feminine face, I don’t have the same defined and delicate facial structure Emma Watson does, so yeah, I didn’t look anywhere near as good as she does here. I was also very overweight at the time and dressed in baggy t-shirts, so I’m sure most people that saw me assumed that I was a big ol’ butch dyke. (Kind of embarrassing). The worst was when it was in the growing-out mullet stage, but at chin-to-shoulder lengths I thought it framed my face nicely.

    I wasn’t thinking about attracting men at either stage. Sometimes, it’s really not about the menz.

    Of course, now that I’m in full-on ‘I want loving sex’ stage, and a little bit more self-aware, I’m trying to grow my hair longer and thicker. If only I could be sixteen again and NOT cut it!

  • Lindsay

    Mike C has a great point. I don’t particularly care for the slut look, but I do enjoy the look of a mini skirt on a woman with a great pair of legs. I actually like the 1 of 3 rule thing that Sue likes to promote. It’s not fool proof, but it’s a guideline that I think works most of the time.

    It’s usually true. When I go out and don’t feel like being hit on, I cover up 3 out of 3 – dressing like Ellen DeGeneres does on her talk show. Younger guys, I guess, like the look, as I still get hit on, but I feel more secure when I’m covered. My husband thinks I’m too self-conscious about looking sexy (for my benefit, not for his), but I’ve been on the receiving end of unwanted harassment and sexual violence, so I’m now cautious, even though I realize they aren’t related. The looking sexy=rape target has been so engrained in me, even though it’s a false equivalency, that I genuinely don’t feel comfortable showing skin. I was a bit like this before it happened, though – for example, to my high school prom, I wore a (very 90s) floor-length, all-black Betsey Johansen knockoff with spaghetti straps and a fairly modest v-neck, and many of the other girls wore skin-tight, shiny dresses that showed lots of cleavage or bare midriffs (the 90s were all about mini-shirts, but extending that concept to prom dresses was just…too stupid for words).

    I was actually wearing jeans, Doc Martens, a wallet chain, a jacket, and a big, baggy shirt with the name of one of Patton’s more famous bands on it when I was sexually assaulted. You know it was Bad Times, because after that incident, I used the Patton shirt to clean the bathtub instead of ever wearing it again. You have to really have a bad experience in a Patton shirt to treat it like that when you’re a fanboy like I am – so nuts for Patton that you listen to Bowel of Chiley and insist it is a masterpiece. He was all of 17 when he made that demo, and it’s butt-awful, no joke.

    One look I am often comfortable with is tank top with modest skin showing + short skirt + opaque black tights or leggings + dress boots. It somewhat violates the rule, but not really because you’re not going bare-legged. As a bonus, it’s easy to wear, and very comfortable, and allows for easy movement and dancing without having to hike anything up or “adjust.” I like tights because they look great with boots, and I can’t walk in heels due to multiple old foot injuries and stress fractures. It’s surprisingly difficult to find attractive women’s shoes that don’t involve stilettos or other, similarly tiny and awkward heels. Some folks opine that stilettos are the only truly sexy footwear, but I can’t risk deforming my feet to the point that I need surgery to test that theory out.

    @Sassy, I’m sure you looked awesome with a Halle Berry cut. I like your new photo on here. Awesome dress and art direction. Well-done.

  • Lindsay

    (Or is it “Betsy Johnson?” Yes, yes it is. Got confused w/ Scarlett Johanssen for a minute there.)

  • purplesneakers

    I will add to my previous comment that I was probably an outlier in terms of girls in high school/college and not realizing/not caring that cutting my hair would make me less attractive to guys–probably I already believed that I was so unattractive no one would want me anyway, and what was the point in trying.

    If only I knew how low men’s standards really are. lol.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lindsay

    @Sassy, I’m sure you looked awesome with a Halle Berry cut. I like your new photo on here. Awesome dress and art direction. Well-done.

    Thanks Lindsay. I appreciate the compliment.

    I think the reason the pixie cut did work for me was because I have an interesting mix of facial features. I have a very strong chin, which I’m pretty sure I got from my father, but I also have full lips and huge eyes. The feminine characteristics meshed well with the masculine.

    I don’t look androgynous, but I’ve always loved the androgynous look. It fascinates me. People who walk that line are very interesting to look at, in my opinion.

  • Jackie

    @Lindsay

    Hey Lindsay, it is really nice to “see” you — I was thinking about you after your post on another thread. I hope you are feeling better today. :)

    I know this is off-topic, but I know SO MANY people who are in your situation. Crazy-talented people, with stellar resumes. Just from what you’ve written on here I am sure you will be snapped up soon! In the meantime, if you are open to ideas, these are two things that help me:

    *Getting dressed, made-up, look nice every day; even if no one sees you. Set the alarm and unplug the tv, if possible. I try to keep shoes on, too, at all times. For some reason, it makes me feel like I am more “at work.” Weird but true.

    *Getting a volunteer “job” at some place that is resonates with you. For me, it is the Humane Society; my job is to socialize the incoming animals and assist on the adoption floor. I pet a lot of neglected animals and give tons of tummy rubs. :) It looks good on your resume but better than that, feeling useful and necessary to *something* helps a lot.

    Please keep us posted on your job quest, Lindsay, so we can cheer you on. I’m sure something good will happen soon :) Kindest regards–

    PS: Your 90s prom dress sounds awesome and classic! BTW, I love Betsey Johnson dresses! I definitely wait for sale clearance though– the one I like is $450 ATM (At The Moment).

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    OMG, your pic is adorable! I can’t believe you’re 40 in that shot– way to go!! :D

  • Lindsay

    @Purplesneakers:

    I had a Mohawk, Liberty spikes, a Chelsea, and a pixie in college. We all had hair we regret, though I only “pretend” to regret mine because I must now be a Serious Professional – in reality, those days were hella fun. (Did you mean you were embarrassed to be read as lesbian or that being one is embarrassing? I assume the former, but unsure.)

    You’re probably not alone in not caring what guys thought in HS. I went to HS in the 90s, the pre-No Child Left Behind era, so there was still academic tracking. Thus, I was skipped ahead 3 years in math, and 2 in science, and given independent study art and design. However, I had to take humanities and history with my graduating class, and I was Not Popular.

    The other accelerated girls jockeyed for social status by playing sports and joining after-school activities (marching band, theater, stage crew). However, I voluntarily did all the art and design for the school (e.g. programs, fliers, creative directed the lit. mag, etc.) and was a pre-professional ballerina, which is a very serious and time-consuming pursuit, so all my activities were done alone or outside of the school social structure. Add in the swimming I did 2-3 times a week to build muscle and endurance, and there was no time for socializing with my classmates.

    Older guys liked me without my trying, but not until later in high school, and my sole boyfriend was a college sophomore/junior. The guys in my own class wouldn’t touch me with a ten-foot pole, aside from the burnout guys into heavy metal, and the art-class guys, who saw me as a “bro,” not a date. Hanging out with them was fun, but mostly consisted of listening to Faith No More and Alice in Chains and smoking pot, with no romantic overtures whatsoever. On the other hand, with everyone wearing either flannels, overalls, or Jnco jeans, no one was looking too fly in the 90s anyway. = D

    On a related note, the guys were burning out in the 90s in my HS, before standardized testing and group-work was widespread. You’d assume that they’d be eager to compete and get into accelerated classes, if the competition was what drove them. But nope. Despite the curriculum of my HS not changing one iota since about 1972, the guys viewed school as “for f*gs/for girls.” My opinion? Later Gen-Xers like us were bombarded with unflattering profiles of academically gifted high school guys in 80s and 90s movies (John Hughs movies are a great example) who never got the girl and never got laid. I think they unconsciously avoided academics because the current media they grew up under told them academics=loner virgin syndrome, forever. Being cool, to guys of my generation, was playing football or becoming the next Kurt Cobain. Making As in physics and biochem, not so much.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    I was thinking about this. If a woman does not feel sexy, she’s not

    Lets see. If a man doesnt feel sexy, he´s not?

    False, regardless of gender.

    The most important sex organ is the brain.

    Sure, but unrelated.

    Maybe some men don’t care, but in my experience they do. A lot.

    For attraction, sure, for sexyness = unrelated.

    That’s precisely my objection. If Emma Watson wishes to reserve her sexiness for her SO, why do we resent it? No one gave Meryl Streep grief for not being a bimbo with breast implants.

    She can do whatever she wants, I thought the point was to demolish Tomassi´s assertions, but it seems like “sexy” is missing its meaning – conceding the point to him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami

      The most important sex organ is the brain.
      For attraction, sure, for sexyness = unrelated.

      This is very interesting. Can you describe the difference between sexiness and sexual attraction?

      I was thinking about this. If a woman does not feel sexy, she’s not

      Lets see. If a man doesnt feel sexy, he´s not?

      False, regardless of gender.

      Another really interesting question. Is sexiness something that is solely perceived by another based on physical characteristics alone, unrelated to the intent or feelings of the object? Will men perceive a hot, anxious woman in precisely the same way as a hot, smiling woman? Is a woman sexier if she appears interested in you? Is a very hot woman sexy if she is passed out – do you still feel the same desire to have sex with her?

      For women, the apparent emotional state of the male is key. The best looking man on the planet will repel women if he appears timid, for example. Or if he is sloppy drunk. Obviously, male attraction is different, but I wonder if the complexity of attraction varies somewhat among males. Is there anything other than physical traits that affect it?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Hmmm, how does this square with your comment that Emma W isn’t sexy because she has zero joy? Kristen Stuart appears to have had her smile muscles wired shut.

    Sexual energy.

    Watson transmits some asexual porcelain depression. Stuart looks like she just fucked the cameraman.

    http://estilosdemoda.com/wp-content/2010/03/kristenstewart.jpg

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sexual energy.

      Watson transmits some asexual porcelain depression. Stuart looks like she just fucked the cameraman.

      So sexual energy is unrelated to joy, but both can affect attraction in different ways?

      For you it seems clear that sexiness is not just about physical traits. You’ve identified two psychological things that influence it for you.

  • Jackie

    It seems to me that the “quality” of sexiness is relative the amount of “performance” involved. I.e. the fake tan, the duck lips, the makeup apparently applied with a trowel, haircolor not found in nature, etc etc

    The further away from natural, the more contrived it seems. Although, I’m not a guy so I may be missing the point entirely! :)

    Also: This was another “charm school” point in regards to appearance: Men should notice your face, NOT your makeup. The focus is on bringing out your best points, not slathering on product with a trowel. The guy should be thinking, Wow, she’s got beautiful eyes; not, Wow, she is wearing a TON of makeup.

    I.e. Less is more.

  • Lindsay

    @Jackie: Thank you! I will try your recommendations. I’m currently mentoring entry level designers and techies as a way of “giving back,” so I’m going to look into what opportunities are available to do this in a more “official” capacity.

    Most recently, I interviewed for a senior interactive design manager position at an amazing high-tech company that would give me a high five-figure salary (which is tops for my area, where a 1-br apt. runs about $500/month), 4 weeks’ vacation (rocknroll!), full health benefits, and partial tuition remission so my husband could get more education. I really want it, and they seemed to rate me very highly in the rounds of interviews, but my follow-up(s) afterward have not gotten a response. The company is a spinoff of a very large, bureaucratic corporation that shares its HR and so I’m told that hiring decisions are made about as fast as molasses pours over there, and that not hearing yet is a good thing. But I gotta keep looking because I don’t want to get my hopes up about something that may not materialize.

    And when it comes right down to it, we may have to move. I’ve re-written 9 folks’ resumes so far using my customized method, and they’ve all gotten jobs with my new resumes – but I have not. So I know it’s not my resume, or my site, or anything like that. It’s probably my field, or the fact that I’m quite specialized at this point, and not someone who companies would want to put in a position where they feel I’d leave once the economy recovers.

    Your words made me smile. Thank you so much.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Jackie
    To add to what you’ve just said . . . Cindy Crawford says that women should consider it an insult (or at least a warning) when someone tells them, “Your makeup is so great!” because people should see the face and not the makeup.

  • Jackie

    @Lindsay
    WOW, it sounds you are doing awesomely! Heaps of congrats on the interviews and it is stellar about your resume results for your friends.

    Re: hearing back for the awesome job, my landlord is a VP at a bank, and he says that at a certain pay-level of his company, they are just going through candidates with a fine-tooth comb (ie taking FOREVER) because of justifying the salary, benefits, etc in this economy.

    Anyhow, will be keeping my fingers crossed for you! GL :)

  • Good Luck Chuck

    The material point is — a woman’s choice not to slang her body around like some Las Vegas stripper does not mean, not should it communicate, that she is not sexy, is incapable of being sexy, feeling sexy, or acting sexy.

    Women are free to do whatever they like with their appearance but that doesn’t mean that men have to like it or appreciate it. The whole “If a woman chooses to look like a boy that should not communicate that she is not sexy” business reminds me of the tired line that women like to trot out about men being “intimidated” by a woman’s job/wealth/age/intelligence/maturity/insert-any-other-quality-that-men-could-care-less about-or-has-a-negative-effect-on-her-attractiveness-here.

    Newsflash ladies- we aren’t intimidated, it’s a turn-off. You don’t have to tart yourself up like a Vegas stripper but if you choose to maintain your appearance in a non-feminine manner don’t expect us men to cheer you on and tell you how “sexy” you are.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You don’t have to tart yourself up like a Vegas stripper but if you choose to maintain your appearance in a non-feminine manner don’t expect us men to cheer you on and tell you how “sexy” you are.

      Fair enough. And Emma Watson has specifically stated that she doesn’t care how sexy you think she is.

  • Jackie

    @Bellita

    Haha, great minds think alike! :D

    I have made the mistake of complimenting a woman on her makeup (mostly for eyeshadow technique), thought. Oops!

    PS: Am still looking for the 54-Day Novena for you. Will try to post to your blog ASAP!

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    For the lurkers,

    “Stripping, pole dancing, kissing other girls, hey how about double penetration?!”

    Remember the slut vs. LTR piles ladies.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Remember the slut vs. LTR piles ladies.

      Are you saying that sexiness is equal, or maybe even higher for the slut pile, as Rollo claims (sexy 100% of the time!), but that women should manage their level of sexiness to avoid going into the wrong pile? Or are you saying that an LTR-worthy woman is sexier to you?

  • Lindsay

    @Belita:

    I do that sometimes on purpose. I buy my makeup at the same Korean beauty supply stores that sell my coconut oil, mousse, etc., and IMO, it’s actually the same makeup they sell at Sephora, without the label. I like to buy the bold, bright colors: peacock blue, jade green, hot pink, etc., and sometimes, I’ll wear them specifically to draw attention to my eye makeup. Muted shades of camel and taupe are great for job interviews, but when I go out, sometimes I like to use my face as a canvas to experiment on.

  • Lindsay

    @Jackie: Thank you!

  • Jackie

    Re: Emma Watson

    Today I saw a picture of another actress around Emma Watson’s age: Lindsay Lohan.
    http://cdn.fd.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Lindsay-Lohan-Woody-Allen.jpg

    To me, this was an unspeakably sad photo. Isn’t LL only 24-25? I just remember seeing her in “Parent Trap” and”Mean Girls” and thought she had SO much potential.

    She seems to have gone in the opposite direction from EW. I remember LL being really sexualized at a young age. It seemed to be all she knew how to do. Necklines kept getting lower, hemlines kept getting higher. Drugs to keep her skinny. Plastic surgeries to make her “enhanced.” :(

    To me, EW survived the transition from child star INFINITELY better. She has lots of time to change her image to “sexier.” I don’t know that Lindsay Lohan will be going back to school anytime soon.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      Interesting photo there. Homely Soon Yi was the sexiest woman ever to Woody Allen.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Rollo doesn’t know it, but women have actually figured out what gives men boners. Stripping, pole dancing, kissing other girls, hey how about double penetration?!

    Actually he complains about that

    Men are stimulated primarily by the physical, but there’s a lot more a woman can do to be seductive. Quite honestly I think seduction is a lost art for women. Very few women know how to be sexy, much less seductive. Even fewer ever feel a need to be seductive. This is due to an environment that, for the past 50 years, has simplified sexual exchange for women to the point that all she need do is stay somewhat fit and wear a thong occasionally. So many men have become so acclimated to just these visual prompts as sexual cues that women don’t really need to learn seduction. There is no greater reward for being sexy or seductive beyond what she’s already capable of prompting in a man, so seduction practices aren’t reinforced for her.

    In other words, sexiness in terms of seduction / femininity, beyond sluttiness and cleavage, that´s the point he was making, or at least one of the points.

    Watson is missing both cleavage and seduction / femininity. Stewart has some cleavage / seduction with some masculinity / dorkyness. Some girls are cleavage only. Some push the cleavage over the top (sluts magazines etc). The Olsen girl I linked has charm / femininity with some hints of seduction and minimal cleavage. There are several ways to prepare that cocktail, but as long as sexiness goes, its all about being “fuckable”.

    Watson is beautiful in a porcelain way. Not sexy. Jesus can have her.

    She could be sexy without showing her pants.

    Being fuckable is not about showing your tits. Even if tits in the open trigger boners everywhere.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami

      Being fuckable is not about showing your tits. Even if tits in the open trigger boners everywhere.

      So sluttiness is not always sexy, in your view?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jackie,

    Yeah, Lindsay Lohan is a sad story.

  • Jackie

    @YOHAMI (#180)
    Hi Yohami,

    I am still looking for my narcissist reading list for you. Will post ASAP. :) In the meantime, here is a REALLY good dissection of N:

    the last psychiatrist (dot) com / narcissism
    (just eliminate the spaces– trying to avoid the spam filter!)

    Good luck, Yohami the troubadour :)

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jackie,

    That TLP blog is so sharp and so good. Thanks for the link again.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Jackie
    I couldn’t believe that was Lindsay Lohan. What a freaking tragedy . . . :(

    Two months ago, I watched one of her minor movies, Just My Luck, and was astounded at how adorable she was in it. Anyone who never knew her early work and only knows her as a trainwreck will be stunned at the movies that made her famous. She really could have been the next America’s Sweetheart.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Susan

    Re: Rhianna

    A friend of mine actually considers Rhianna a poster girl for how not to be attractive to men. As fashion forward, edgy and “alpha” as she seems to women, men aren’t actually drawn to her style. Rhianna is obviously very sexy, but if a regular woman tried to pull off the same, she probably wouldn’t like the results.

    (She told me this in the context of a conversation about styles/accessories/fashions that women love but men hate. It concluded with her lamenting, “Guys don’t like anything we like, do they?” and both of us laughing over it.)

  • Lindsay

    LL is also allegedly a lesbian, but that’s neither been a negative thing, like it was for Ellen DeGeneres in the past, nor a positive thing, like it’s been more recently for Portia DeRossi. I find it interesting – not that I find LL interesting or a role model as a fellow GLBT person (that’s silly), but more because whoever she dates just winds up along for the ride, adding to her drama. Of course, it helps that Ellen and Portia are the Storybook Fairytale Couple (Ellen being the rich, famous “prince” who rescued Portia from a career slump and MH problems) – and the media has chosen to portray them as such. They’re always depicted in matching outfits – both clad head-to-toe in ethereal white, or in matching jeans and baseball tees, or whatever.

    Lindsay Lohan, by contrast, is seen as a tart and very much a “Bad Girl,” so no matter what woman she’s with, the photos the media releases show her drunken and red-faced, passing out and falling down. There’s an interesting dialog in this entry, which is that the public’s perception of an actor is not always under his/her control, and one period of bad choices or hitting rock-bottom can cause the actor’s downfall to snowball. (Charlie Sheen, perfect example.) Even if she cleaned up, LL would be forever branded, unless she did an Angelina Jolie-level turnaround, adopting a half-dozen kids and taking up a half-dozen causes to match.

    Speaking of Angie, I’ve noticed that many women hate her. The reasons why seem to be split between “She’s ugly and weird and I don’t get why men drool over her” and “She’s a home-wrecker.” I dunno the circumstances of how she got Brad from Jenn Aniston, and don’t care, but she’s wonderful to look at, and that’s enough for me. I avoid celebrity gossip forums because they get vicious.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    “A much more salient question is whether slutty is always sexy. I’m genuinely curious to know that. Jesus and Escoffier say no. Others have said yes. ”

    Thats a genuinely useless question. Most guys would stick their penis is anything that has a 1/10000000 chance of birthing children.
    What matters more is whether or not he would commit afterwards.
    Sexy= fuckable with no regards to commitability.
    Slutty = fuckable but no commitment
    Sensual/etc. = fuckable + commitement

    Note: on the extreme end of slutty I think it probably becomes an issue for a ONS.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Most guys would stick their penis is anything that has a 1/10000000 chance of birthing children.

      Hmmm, so sexy = place I will put my dick?

      From Mirriam Webster:
      Definition of SEXY

      1
      : sexually suggestive or stimulating : erotic
      2
      : generally attractive or interesting : appealing

      For women, both definitions are key. For men, perhaps, just #1?

      In any case, I’m not sure why a woman should be judged harshly for making a personal choice not to cultivate an appearance that is sexually suggestive or stimulating at all times.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Hope @Purplesneakers

    The power haircut seems to be a cultural thing though. I never seen a Latina cutting her hair out of an emotional reason. We cut it or change it for celebration: birthdays, weddings, new year, because is breaking needs new life…For us is always odd when a female character does it in TV or movies.

  • Candide

    Susan, the topic is “Defining sexy”. You debated Rollo’s assertion that too many women these days have no clue what sexy is and you claimed he’s clueless. However, the more you post, the more you’re proving his point.

    Every single one on your list will look infinitely sexier with long hair. Never mind their motive for a pixie cut being mostly commercial, something your female readers never have, using examples of women with elite level beauty as a lesson for average girls is a complete failure.

    Emma Watson is pretty. That photo earlier showing her various moods vs the Twilight tart also makes her sexy (in a kind of reserved manner), but only because she was rocking long hair. The pixie cut makes her look like a 10 year old boy. Cute but decidedly not sexy.

    Pretty much every guy here has told you so. If you don’t trust men’s opinions on what we find sexy, then … perhaps you should start telling your girls to keep focusing on their careers and intelligence too, since we apparently find it very sexy and attractive as well. They will all get to end up fabulous and extremely good looking with $1M book deals, like Kate Bollick.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Candide

      Pretty much every guy here has told you so. If you don’t trust men’s opinions on what we find sexy, then … perhaps you should start telling your girls to keep focusing on their careers and intelligence too, since we apparently find it very sexy and attractive as well. They will all get to end up fabulous and extremely good looking with $1M book deals, like Kate Bollick.

      Good god, how many times do I have to say that this post is not about the pixie cut!

      Rollo asserted that sluts are always sexy, and that women unwilling to parade their sexuality are not sexy. Rollo completely misunderstood Emma Watson’s comment, and wrote a snarky post about femcentrism and women’s general cluelessness as to what men find sexy.

      Well, guess what. Women will cut their hair. And you have every right to boycott those women. I have no doubt that the female celebrities with short hair have no complaints in that department. Jude Law certainly dug Sienna Miller’s short hair, and I could up with a similar example for every one of those women.

      Women may choose to wear their hair long to be attractive to men, but we don’t owe it to you. It’s not legit for Rollo to rag on Emma Watson for not wanting to parade as a hooker. She makes her choices, she’ll evaluate her results, and adjust accordingly, presumably.

      Why the bitterness and resentment? Does a woman not have the right to choose her own hairstyle without being called frigid, pathetic and juvenile?

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Bellita
    I kind of like Rihanna always changing her style and hair color, like Katy Perry and Nicki Minaj. Not sure if guys like that but one of the reasons I adored Madonna was because I couldn’t tell her apart from album to album! So many changes!

  • Jackie

    @Anacaona C & Bellita

    I almost feel like Katy Perry, Rhianna, etc with their hair color, is almost like a cartoon character that somehow got morphed into real life. It’s almost like a theatrical effect that distances them from “real” humans?

    Remember KP with blue hair? I actually like it heaps, but couldn’t see many people pulling it off. Same with Rhianna when she went RED — reminded me of the Little Mermaid. Apparently they spend about $40K/month on hair (coloring, extensions, wigs, etc.) Crazy!

  • Mike C

    I think you’ve missed the point. She doesn’t say that men don’t find miniskirts sexy. ***Of course, she knows they do.*** She is stating that she doesn’t feel comfortable doing “sexy” by wearing a miniskirt.

    I don’ think so (missing the point). To the bolded part, I think it is far from certain she knows that (which is the essence of Rollo’s point).

    Quoting Emma from above:

    “Personally, I don’t actually think its even that sexy,………….My idea of sexy is that less is more”. I tried to make this point earlier, but the concept of sexiness implies the desire to have sex with. Otherwise, it is just a nonsensical term. So either she doesn’t understand the term, or contrary to your assertion above does not realize men find mini-skirts sexy.

    I can see we are heading in the direction of sexy meaning whatever one wants it to mean, and also being self-defined. So if a fat woman with cankles wears a snug blouse and “feels sexy in her mind” than she is in fact sexy. I”m not going to argue that position if one essentially wants to go that route.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      An 18 yo Emma Watson said that “less is more,” she has refrained from posing for overtly sexual photos, and she’s had many male suitors. So for her, it works.

      A miniskirt is something that most women will wear to attract men. Emma W seems quite conservative on that point. But where is the line between sexy and not sexy? At what point does slutty become gross instead of sexy?

      Are there men for whom “less is more?” Where the very fact of modesty and circumspection is arousing, in that it signals limited sexual experience, a high priority for men?

      This seems to break out along the lines of short-term vs. long-term mating. Emma Watson is not a ONS sort of girl, and does not inspire that desire in men. I would imagine that men seeking an LTR would value such sexual conservatism highly.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Mike C,

    Im not going to argue that position either, because its a waste of time.

  • Mike C

    Pretty much every guy here has told you so. If you don’t trust men’s opinions on what we find sexy, then … perhaps you should start telling your girls to keep focusing on their careers and intelligence too, since we apparently find it very sexy and attractive as well. They will all get to end up fabulous and extremely good looking with $1M book deals, like Kate Bollick.

    Don’t forget well-traveled and high-status designer clothing. In fact, the more traveled, the more sexy the woman is. And +1 for sexiness for designer label shoes.

  • Lindsay

    I guess another question is, “How slutty is too slutty?” (I don’t typically like judging people by their numbers, but some do, and if that’s how you roll, rock on.) And more to the point, can sluttiness be assessed by appearance?

    My number, which is close to 30, would be too high for the HUS/red pill guys – and even if it weren’t, they’re looking for straight women, and I’m looking for folks at a 1 or higher on the Kinsey Scale. But despite that, I interest some guys who wouldn’t ordinarily go after women with such numbers, and who probably want traditional marriages, kids, etc. Is it because I dress in a way that doesn’t show much skin? Because I look young? Is it long hair? That I pass for straight, or look like good wife and mother material? Is it that we’re taught – or have an idea in our minds – that “slutty” looks a certain way?

    I learned while reading this that Kim Kardashian is considered to look “slutty,” and I’m not sure I am seeing specifically what makes her that – I see princessy and over-done, maybe – but I want to understand what the other signifiers are. Cearly there’s a set of behavioral and appearance cues guys are looking for and I’m not understanding.

  • Mike C

    Im not going to argue that position either, because its a waste of time.

    Sure is.

    Well, here is the interesting thing as a student of sort of human psychology, and actually my participation on these threads as sort of crystallized this for me.

    Unlike men who study Game, and attempt to adapt their personality traits to line up with female attraction triggers, by and large many women simply will not…they simply refuse to consider any alteration to male preferences. So if they want to cut their hair super short, and be sarcastic, and aggressive then by damn that is how they are going to be. But in the next breath complain about not having a boyfriend. Truly amazing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      So if they want to cut their hair super short, and be sarcastic, and aggressive then by damn that is how they are going to be. But in the next breath complain about not having a boyfriend. Truly amazing.

      Can you name one woman here who has done that? Or are you referring to Emma Watson, who has been neither sarcastic, aggressive, or complained of not having a boyfriend?

  • mrangy

    Is that Tommassi guy commenting the one who wrote this shit? LOL, that dude needs to put a shirt on or develop some muscles. You can’t be an “alpha” if your a little

  • Butterfly Flower

    Remember KP with blue hair? I actually like it heaps, but couldn’t see many people pulling it off. Same with Rhianna when she went RED — reminded me of the Little Mermaid. Apparently they spend about $40K/month on hair (coloring, extensions, wigs, etc.) Crazy!

    Actually, Rhianna dyes her hair with Manic Panic [specifically the color "Vampire Red"]. A bottle of Manic Panic dye usually costs less than 20 bucks.

    If you wanted to be dirt-cheap, you could just boil a packet of Kool-Aid. Boiled Kool-Aid is a surprisingly strong hair dye. It’s good if you want to dye just the ends of your hair [like Christina Aguilera, circa 1999].

    Don’t forget well-traveled and high-status designer clothing. In fact, the more traveled, the more sexy the woman is. And +1 for sexiness for designer label shoes.

    Wait a sec – men pay attention to our shoes ? I always had the impressions that guys don’t really care.

    & Susan brought up Twiggy – who currently has a fantastic shoe-line on the Home Shopping Network.

  • Mike C

    This seems to break out along the lines of short-term vs. long-term mating. Emma Watson is not a ONS sort of girl, and does not inspire that desire in men. I would imagine that men seeking an LTR would value such sexual conservatism highly

    Depends. I don’t think any guy wants a LTR with a woman who is not sexual. The quote above is just a snippet and certainly not enough to make a sound judgement call but I’m with Yohami that Emma gives off a very cold vibe sexually. Again, a woman can be sexual without being slutty.

    Anyway she cuts her hair she has a pretty face, and she is an actress making big dollars. So. She isn’t going to be hurting for guys to approach and date her.

  • Mike C

    Wait a sec – men pay attention to our shoes ? I always had the impressions that guys don’t really care.

    I was being facetious.

  • Lindsay

    *Clearly.* Grr. Mac constantly runs scripts and freezes up. It cuts me off mid-sentence and then I omit letters/make typos. I’ve tried disabling pop-ups and JavaScript, but then I can’t read or contribute comments. I just need a new computer, which won’t happen until I get a new job.

    Susan, that’s what I was getting at. Men may say they like cleavage out to here, tiny skirts, etc. at first sight, or claim they do, but apparently a lot of them also like modest clothing because it implies less sexual experience – even if it’s a lie, as in my case. Or maybe it’s all random and everyone’s different. I have no idea. I’ve asked my husband what’s slutty vs. sexy vs. cute and like the guys here, he’ll name women, but to me, the categorizations seem random.

    I dressed pretty risque (for me) on my first date with my husband, and slept with him on the second, which is usually not advised on HUS or anywhere else, but it also wasn’t a typical dating arrangement. We’d already been friends and spent time together for a long time prior to dating. I chose to amp up the sexiness to differentiate myself from being the girl next door – which for a period of time, I literally was. We first met as neighbors.

  • Jackie

    @MikeC

    “by and large many women simply will not…they simply refuse to consider any alteration to male preferences. So if they want to cut their hair super short, and be sarcastic, and aggressive then by damn that is how they are going to be. But in the next breath complain about not having a boyfriend.”

    I had a roommate like this once. I think I may have mentioned her a while back? Anyway, she had all the signifiers: super short hair, caustic wit, feminist, aggressive, etc. A real chip on her shoulder towards men.

    For her, I believe it was a defense mechanism. She might say she wanted a BF, and she probably thought she did. But in the face of potential attraction, I think it scared the crap out her– she was doing everything (albeit unconsciously) to sabotage and shut it down.

    There is a part of her that feels MUCH safer on the outside looking in, than actually having to be in a relationship. That’s just my experience with one person like this though, YMMV.

  • Lindsay

    If you wanted to be dirt-cheap, you could just boil a packet of Kool-Aid. Boiled Kool-Aid is a surprisingly strong hair dye. It’s good if you want to dye just the ends of your hair [like Christina Aguilera, circa 1999].

    Or Kurt Cobain c. 1989: http://i54.tinypic.com/aw44f9.jpg, aka “The Beatles of my generation.” I wish I still loved the band like I did as a teen, but his likeness (and then his death and memorial) were productized and marketed to me every 5 minutes in adolescence. I hated the pop revival in the late 90s, including Christina, Britney, etc. but alt-rock was in sad-sack shape by then, and needed to be taken out back and shot.

  • Lindsay

    Whoops. I inadvertently made a completely inappropriate joke. Ha!

  • Jackie

    @Lindsay (#187)

    I, too, do not understand the “hate” for Angelina Jolie. (Although I wish she would gain a couple pounds– she looks SO skinny.) She does a lot of charitable work, she seems to really love motherhood and wears great clothes.

    As for the “homewrecker” stuff– I bet she and Jennifer Aniston have a deal: In public they play up the feud and make $$, in private maybe they’re friends, laughing all the way to the bank. :)

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Can you name one woman here who has done that?

    That was a comment about women in general, not about the women HERE.

    Even when some women HERE insist on redefining sexy to non-sense.

  • Mike C

    Can you name one woman here who has done that?

    Yes, but no way am I going there. I try to not make a habit of walking by and smacking hornet’s nests.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    This is off-topic, but if one wanted to get dating feedback (after the date), should they post here off-topic or take it straight to the “Forum”?
    Thanks :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      @Susan

      This is off-topic, but if one wanted to get dating feedback (after the date), should they post here off-topic or take it straight to the “Forum”?
      Thanks

      Either or both! I’m cool with either.

  • Mike C

    That was a comment about women in general, not about the women HERE.

    Actually, it was both. And that certainly isn’t all inclusive. There are the Hopes, and Jackies, and Olives and Anacoanas that are or should be role models.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      There are the Hopes, and Jackies, and Olives and Anacoanas that are or should be role models.

      Yes, and interestingly, none of them is slutty. They are all modest women. According to Rollo, they are not among the “precious few” who know how to be sexy. He does not allow for any kind of sexiness that is not on display for the masses.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Remember KP with blue hair? I actually like it heaps, but couldn’t see many people pulling it off. Same with Rhianna when she went RED — reminded me of the Little Mermaid. Apparently they spend about $40K/month on hair (coloring, extensions, wigs, etc.) Crazy!

    I’m usually a cheap bitch and I refuse spending money on things like shoes, clothes but I’m pretty sure if I had that money I will be spending the same on hair. Hair is the weak point of Dominican women, you define being poor, I mean after covering the basics of course, by not having money to go to the beauty parlor.

  • Mike C

    Even when some women HERE insist on redefining sexy to non-sense.

    Fun to watch though.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Even when some women HERE insist on redefining sexy to non-sense.

      Fun to watch though.

      Mike C and Yohami, you’re being deliberately obtuse (at best). No one is saying that short hair is sexy, or that intelligence and education make a woman sexy. You’re essentially trolling to claim that.

      I wrote the post to take issue with Rollo’s judgmental comments on an 18 year old girl and women in general. I am offended by his belief that women don’t know how to be sexy if they choose not to appear sexy in public.

      Do you agree with Rollo’s statements about Emma Watson and women in particular? That is the topic here.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Jackie
    I don’t hate Angelina Jolie but I don’t buy the whole “I’m doing charity so whatever I do in my personal life is okay” The whole Aniston thing was really ugly and excusing both, trust me I used to love Brad Pitt, sets a bad precedent for people in the real world that cannot differentiate that being a celebrity allows you to certain privileges than a woman or another man for that matter, shouldn’t delude on having. Is the same thing with the slut that things she is a good person because she volunteers at some place. She will be contributing to the well being of society a lot more by not sleeping around than volunteering. Unless she is volunteering on Africa or Afghanistan for the rest of her life of course, YMMV.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Interesting article, Yohami.

      if you consciously adopt a powerful state– puff up your chest and say, “hey baby, nice stems”, and it fails, you’re going to look like an idiot. Shame. Notice that the rejection is the same in both cases, but it is felt more severely if you act confidently, posture accordingly. There is more shame.

      The solution is to not fake it. That doesn’t mean not try, that means instead of sitting up straight before the presentation, sit up straight all the time. At least train your body to naturally adopt what your mind is too nervous/self-conscious to do.

  • Lindsay

    Women are free to do whatever they like with their appearance but that doesn’t mean that men have to like it or appreciate it. The whole “If a woman chooses to look like a boy that should not communicate that she is not sexy” business reminds me of the tired line that women like to trot out about men being “intimidated” by a woman’s job/wealth/age/intelligence/maturity/insert-any-other-quality-that-men-could-care-less about-or-has-a-negative-effect-on-her-attractiveness-here.

    Newsflash ladies- we aren’t intimidated, it’s a turn-off.

    Oh, I’m aware. Had a couple guys in my past who made that painfully clear. One came right out and said my intelligence was intimidating, played phone games with me, and then got offended and angry because I cut him loose. The other, who was immature and often drunk, managed to screw up every job and internship he got, despite being handed job opportunities from his well-connected siblings who wiped his ass for him. He repeatedly berated me for having career aspirations while predicting and even hoping I would fail because I was not “handed his advantages.” He hated when I did well. He hated when I could do anything better than he could. One day I tried teaching him how to draw, at his request. He couldn’t stand the fact that to reach my level of proficiency, he’d need to practice every day for 10 years – i.e. it wasn’t something to be learned in an hour – and made a big show of giving up on it. While trashing me, he somehow needed immense amounts of validation for his “talents” and accomplishments from me and everyone else. While I initially thought it was sad when he dumped me, soon after that, I found myself thrilled at the turn of events.

    You may find intelligence, wealth, career aspirations, maturity, etc. to be turn-offs in women, and that’s your prerogative. It’s also my prerogative to date people who value me for traits besides my face, breasts, and sex organs. Surprisingly, they’re not that hard to find. I just steer clear of people who are only interested in me because they want something nice hanging off of their arm. Someone who only wants me for my looks – like the 38 year-old college professor I dated briefly shortly before getting together with my husband, whose girlfriends got younger as he got older – is bound to get rid of me anyway when those looks fail to satisfy. My husband considers other things about women besides their face, breasts, and genitals when he dates them. And he’s not lying about it to make me feel better, either – though some guys may lie to their girlfriends about valuing things besides their looks.

    Of course, let’s be clear – I don’t much care or get offended about the fact that some men may not like me for much other than my face and tits, or may even be turned off by my other qualities. I simply won’t date them. Everyone wins!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lindsay

      You may find intelligence, wealth, career aspirations, maturity, etc. to be turn-offs in women, and that’s your prerogative. It’s also my prerogative to date people who value me for traits besides my face, breasts, and sex organs. Surprisingly, they’re not that hard to find.

      That’s your right, and I’m glad it’s working for you. I could never have dated someone who didn’t value my intelligence.

      I do agree with the guys that the longer the list of traits a woman demands appreciation for, the smaller the pool of potentially interested men. So I have no patience for women who demand to know where all the good men have gone, or to blame men for not appreciating all their traits.

      Personally, I would have definitely preferred to remain single than marry someone who would have been just as happy with a bimbo. Like you, though, I found that many intelligent men desire that in a mate.

  • Lindsay

    Even when some women HERE insist on redefining sexy to non-sense.

    Fun to watch though.

    Can’t speak for other ladies, but whether or not my definition of sexy satisfies strangers on the Internet typing from 5 states away is immaterial to me.

    Clearly, also, sexy is subjective. Elizabeth Olsen looks like a department-store mannequin Stepford wife to my husband, but she’s other guys’ dreamboat. (Don’t understand it, but everyone should date people who turn them on, right?)

  • mark

    Susan Walsh wrote:
    This reminds me of the thread about Kate Bolick. Many of the men here claimed she was busted, downright hideous. Meanwhile, the Atlantic acknowledges that her looks, including her pics in the article and on the cover, made her article the most read in the magazine’s history. She got a TV deal, and last week a book deal rumored to be near $1 million. None of this would have happened unless she was perceived as extremely good looking.”

    Kate looked good, but they should have moved her hair off of her face.

    And this:
    Both men and women can’t get enough of trying to figure out how this woman managed to not find Mr. Right.”

    The reason she can’t find Mr. Right is because there is something about her (and probably Jennifer Aniston, too), something you cannot see, something she did not reveal in the Atlantic article or elsewhere, that turns men off. She may be able to find them for the short-term, but eventually there’s a split.

  • mark

    Off hand, I can think of two examples of femininity in film:

    1) Naomi Watts’ character in Mulholland Drive. I’m talking the innocence she shows when she initially appears in the film to stay at her aunt’s house in Los Angeles and in her interaction with Laura Harring’s character during the first half or so of the movie.

    2) The second example is even more striking. It is Sondra Locke’s character in the movie The Outlaw Josie Wales. There are three instances in this movie that really define femininity.

    The first instance, which starts at 14100 on your DVD player’s counter, is a scene after the group arrives at a shelter they’ll be using. Eastwood is sitting a ways away from the house. Locke’s character, who is wearing a long, all white dress, approaches him from behind and stops maybe ten yards away. He turns to see her and their eyes lock for several seconds. She then turns and runs back away from him and over a bluff.

    The second instance, at 15214, is when Eastwood returns from a pow-wow with an Indian chief and brings back with him two men who were earlier captured, as they arrive at the house Locke’s character approaches Eastwood who is still on horseback. She puts her hand on his leg and he then puts his hand on hers and their eyes lock.

    The third instance, at 15305, is probably the best one. Eastwood just finishes branding a steer and walks up to a wooden fence. From the other side of the fence Locke approaches him with those beautiful doe eyes of hers. She then presents him with a watchband that she has woven from her hair. This whole scene, as well as the above two, really define what a woman should be like. I think most men will agree.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    As the father of a soon to be 18 year old daughter, the only thing I can add here is: Ewwww

    The idea of thinking about this young woman as a sexual object makes me feel a bit like a creeper…

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Ted,
    It might make you feel like I a creeper, but I guarantee every guy her age doesn’t share your viewpoint.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Oh I’m sure of that!

    I have to admit there may be just a little self convincing going on here. I am a man, and can’t help but notice an attractive young woman. But then I remember I am the father of just such a young woman, and I mentally flip the channel.

    I guess I’m a dad first, and a man second. :P

  • VD

    BTW, I want to thank you for not expressing a harsh judgment of my pixie cut. I know how you feel about short hair on women, and almost didn’t post it for fear of what you might say. :)

    No need, there’s nothing to judge. As we’ve both noted, one may have very good reasons for certain hairstyles that may be sexually suboptimal. If it was getting you roles as an actress, then obviously it was working for you. I’m in no position to be casting any stones about historical hair. And while going from this look to a clean-shaven head definitely had a negative impact on my visual appeal to women, it was a useful move for the band’s image at the time since both the label and the music media initially mocked us as suburban pretty boys who would get beaten up by the label’s other bands.

    But one shouldn’t minimize the impact that suboptimal styles can have on one’s life. It was really remarkable to see the immediate difference in the women who would approach me, or be initially responsive to my approaches, after I shaved my head. The number dropped by two-thirds, the overall quality declined about one point, and the percentage of head-cases and tattoo-sporters skyrocketed. Of course, none of that applied when one was on stage or recognized in public. Although it must be admitted that I later met my wife thanks to the mohawk; she wanted to know what the side of my head felt like. I turned around and that was that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      You’ve always reminded me of Justin Theroux, and picturing you with a mohawk reminds me of his cameo role in After Hours.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      If it was getting you roles as an actress, then obviously it was working for you.

      Exactly. At 40 I was hardly going for ingenue roles. My coach suggested I cultivate a “look” and I really did start getting more parts after that – everything from the grumpy 30-something spinster to the soccer mom running errands.

      Being attractive to men other than my husband was irrelevant. In fact, I think one of the reason that women cut their hair as they age is to convey the message that they are not available. If a woman is happy in her relationship, she dreads being approached by other men. I’m not talking about mild flirting, but the kind of feeling when you know someone else’s husband (or your personal trainer :-/ ) is very attracted.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Oooooh….. VD=Vox Day. I was wondering what it stood for. I should’ve figured it out, but my brain has always run some serious interference every it’s confronted with the initials VD.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Good to know. We have one guy at least saying that slutty women are not sexy.

    Bravo for Escoffier, but it isn’t as if he were the only one on the thread saying it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      I did channel you in another comment, but I apologize for taking you for granted. ;)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I just steer clear of people who are only interested in me because they want something nice hanging off of their arm. Someone who only wants me for my looks – like the 38 year-old college professor I dated briefly shortly before getting together with my husband, whose girlfriends got younger as he got older – is bound to get rid of me anyway when those looks fail to satisfy.

    So wait, you mean you steer clear of them now that you’re married. Respectable, but not exactly admirable. Most women steer clear of men of all sorts once they’re married.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Clearly, also, sexy is subjective. Elizabeth Olsen looks like a department-store mannequin Stepford wife to my husband, but she’s other guys’ dreamboat. (Don’t understand it, but everyone should date people who turn them on, right?)

    I just think Olsen looks a bit dim-witted. Perfect girl if you want to run some short-term game. Less perfect if you want to find a woman for a long-term relationship

  • Jesus Mahoney

    so nuts for Patton that you listen to Bowel of Chiley and insist it is a masterpiece. He was all of 17 when he made that demo, and it’s butt-awful, no joke.

    One of the great things about him is the catholicity of his tastes and the breadth of his talents. He’s a decent songwriter, but he’s an amazing vocalist. He also happens to be a very warm, friendly, and down-to-earth individual with a good sense of humor.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Ana,

    ‘Emma’s Watson’s cut, while still attractive, does seem to be an attempt to deflect the dreaded “male gaze”’.

    I think this, along with the quote originally leading this piece, is very telling. When I see pictures of her from a couple of years ago:

    http://images.werdyo.com/2011/06/28/emma-watson-birthday-party/emma-watson-18th-birthday-party-black-dress-2008-18.jpg

    I see a girl at the very height of her beauty & loveliness, but also one hounded as a sex-object-to-be since she was 12. For the next 20 years at least, Emma Watson will never want for male attention, & keeping them away so she can at least have some semblance of an actual life is far more likely to be her concern at this moment in time.

    The desire to attract womankind is so fundamental in men – & so hard to achieve – it’s difficult for us to to conceive of the female filter, or of there being times in the life of a woman when her appearance is not being used to attract attention, or even being used to repulse it. Hope’s words put this most touchingly:

    ‘A big drastic haircut is something done often for emotional and psychological reasons. After I had my stillbirth, I cut my waist-length hair very short and donated nearly 12 inches to kids with cancer. I didn’t look as attractive anymore, but I didn’t want to look attractive. I was in mourning.’

    It makes me think of how guys often grow beards when they lose their jobs, or go through divorces, or break up bands: they want to hide from the gaze of the world. For a man that entails growing an extra layer. For a woman, cutting off her hair makes her less immediately sexually attractive & so offers space to not be noticed so much by men.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Lindsay,

    Looking slutty=looking like you’re DTF (with no emotional strings attached). Being slutty=being DTF (with no emotional strings attached).

    Number itself is an imperfect indicator. I say imperfect because it isn’t everything. But once a number reaches a certain level, then you can get a sense that the person has been DTF (with no emotional strings attached) on occasion at least.

    My ex-fiancee sounds a bit like you (not in terms of the bisexuality, but in that she looks more conventional than she’s apparently been in her life). She’s a good person, but not a good bet for someone who wants monogamy. Similarly, you sound like a good person, and you sound like a good gamble for a man who’s willing to exchange a woman’s fidelity for the ability to score some ass on the side. And for someone who doesn’t particularly care about having children.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The Watson quote about less being more reminded me of this Bukowski poem:

    O tempora! O mores!

    I get these girly magazines in the mail because
    I’m writing short stories for them again
    and here in these pages are these ladies
    exposing their jewel boxes -
    it looks more like a gynecologist’s
    journal -
    everything boldly and clinically
    exposed
    beneath bland and bored physiognomies.
    it’s a turn-off of gigantic
    proportions:
    the secret is in the
    imagination -
    take that away and you have dead
    meat.

    a century back
    a man could be driven mad
    by a well-turned
    ankle, and
    why not?
    one could imagine
    that the rest
    would be
    magical
    indeed!

    now they shove it at us like a
    McDonald’s hamburger
    on a platter.

    there is hardly anything as beautiful as
    a woman in a long dress

    not even the sunrise
    not even the geese flying south
    in the long V formation
    in the bright freshness
    of early morning

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      Haha, I think I stole that well-turned ankle bit without even realizing it. That’s a great poem, thanks for sharing it.

  • jess

    Recently Emma Watson has been dressing more and more ‘sluttily’ including mini skirts, mesh tops and crotch shots when exiting taxis.

    its a bit meh…. done so many times before…

    i think the next step for celebs is to show us x-rays of their skeletons- i mean they have already shown us their bare bodies, and their proclivities in ‘leaked’ sex tapes- this is the logical next step….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Recently Emma Watson has been dressing more and more ‘sluttily’ including mini skirts, mesh tops and crotch shots when exiting taxis.

      How does a woman getting out of a taxi avoid a crotch shot when there is a zoom lens (or 10) aimed directly at her crotch?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    jess,

    It’s not a crotch shot when a stranger in a camera tries to get his lens up between her legs and she keeps the thighs closed.

    Ironic that you’re criticizing “slutty” behavior from anyone. Maybe it’s just sour grapes.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “Speaking of Angie, I’ve noticed that many women hate her.”

    Personally, I find that she’s getting to that witchy middle-aged look that usually Italian women get (Madonna), & the tattoos aren’t helping. She’s going to look awful in another 20 years. But the number of girls I’ve been with who think she is hands down the sexiest woman alive is really extraordinary. Though that probably says much about the kind of women I know.

    The female-herd’s disapproval & soap-opera consumption of the private & personal lives of ‘Ange’ & ‘Brad’ & ‘Jennifer’ & so on are utterly beyond me, completely off my radar. It seems to me only mean & ugly, I am unable to understand it at all. I can see that it’s an intrinsic part of female nature, & originally served an evolutionary purpose, but I wish it was a part they would try to keep in check a little more.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    there is hardly anything as beautiful as
    a woman in a long dress

    not even the sunrise
    not even the geese flying south
    in the long V formation
    in the bright freshness
    of early morning”

    Ah Bukowski. When he’s good there’s no-one better.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Watson does have a sort of weird, elfin look in some pics. The pic above is the first I ever saw the girl and it looks hot. In others, she looks averagI still prefer her look to the Olsen one.

    Intelligence looks sexy on a woman. It occurs to me with this thread that men are committing their own fallacy. It seems like a lot of guys prefer the appearance of women who look easy to “game.” A girl like Watson, who in my opinion looks like she’d be fairly immune to Roissy-style game, is considered unsexy. Olsen, who looks incredibly easy to game, is considered more desirable in comparison.

  • jess

    J mahoney,

    um, crotch shots are only possible if one wears a mini skirt.

    celebs KNOW this happens when they go to premiers in short skirts etc.

    crotch shots are not inevitable– I’ve never seen any crotch shots of the queen of england for example.

    and watson has attended chat shows and award ceremonies in micro skirts- its a statement of fact.

    why would this be sour grapes? myself i rarely wear dresses- never liked that kinda attention.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Byron,

    Yea, Bukowski is good. Rereading the poem, I was struck by just how much like Celine Buk is stylistically. Not so much the part you quoted (the geese in long V formation hit the right note, didn’t it?) but the parts about serving women up like McDonald’s burgers and it all just being dead meat without the imagination.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    jess,

    I meant sour grapes because you’re an aging former slut who’s criticizing a very non-slutty girl for showing some leg while going out on the town.

  • jess

    but i have not criticised her as such- its just the whole celeb skin show is a bit meh (and not good for kids in my view).

    she is not as full on as some (e.g. Kardishan etc) but she is not exactly a shrinking violet and she does exploit her body is a sexual way.

    she certainly cannot claim to really endorse the quote at the head of the article.

    as for showing legs ‘on the town’ i couldn’t give a toss- it wasnt something i did when younger but i never disapproved of my peers doing it- provided they had a taxi home booked.

    by the way, I’m not really ashamed of my age, much as you would like me to be, I’m happier now than at any other time in my life.

    nor do i mind the moniker ‘slut’ (but i dont think i qualify by most peoples definition), i just pity people who feel the need to engage in that sort of vitriol.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      its just the whole celeb skin show is a bit meh (and not good for kids in my view).

      Why not?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    jess,

    I don’t think you should be ashamed of your age or your past sluttiness. But I’d venture to say that most people would consider 2 dozen men at least moderately slutty. Doesn’t make you a bad person, of course.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    i just pity people who feel the need to engage in that sort of vitriol.

    I’m not trying to be cruel, btw. Just blunt. And honest.

  • A.
  • Stargate Girl

    I’ll take Lucy Lawless over any of the actresses mentioned thus far…..

  • Escoffier

    I don’t know, maybe it’s an age thing, but then again, I don’t recall being attracted to slutty clothes even in my hormone-addled youth.

  • Escoffier

    Oh, and in my book, there is nothing “moderate” about two dozen but then I am a square …

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    A.,

    yes.

  • http://funandsocial.blogspot.com Nutz

    “Sexy is not always slutty, but slutty is always sexy.”

    On the surface I can see your problem with that statement, but I don’t think how you received it was how it was intended, particularly the “slutty is always sexy”. I can think of tons of examples: porn, strippers, facebook and /r/gonewild attention whores, and the list goes on. They might be slutty, but there is still an element of sexiness to it, even if it’s over the top.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      They might be slutty, but there is still an element of sexiness to it, even if it’s over the top.

      Yes, that is how I took it. I have no opinion on the matter, I’m interested to hear how men define sexy. I am not interested in convincing them that Emma Watson is sexy, which serves no purpose whatsoever for readers.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/01/03/hookinguprealities/after-the-red-pill-good-women-are-hard-to-find/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+HookingUpSmart+%28Hooking Anon

    No one else finds it pretentious or ironic in the least that Watson “refuses to do dumb, or be an object of any kind,” when she cashed in on millions by letting herself be cast as the object of every omega-male Harry Potter fan’s boner (assuming that even omegas aren’t more discerning in taste) in the seven HP films. She’s an actress so pretty much right off the bat I’m going to conclude that she’s also a hulking narcissist of a young woman.

    I think the real reason that Emma eschews the classic “sex object” actress model is that she isn’t actually (gasp) attractive enough to pull it off. I give her a 7-8 out of 10 and I think most guys would realistically make a similar appraisal of her looks. If she wasn’t British and didn’t star in HP she’d be a solid 7. Her attempt to self-define what men find as “Sexy” is IMO a childish refusal to accept the reality of what men find sexy that comes from a place of insecurity rather than confidence. There is definitely more to being sexy than being slutty, but if you want to turn a guy on than dressing like a “slut” is the best way to do it.

    There wasn’t much wrong with Rollo’s “Sexy” article. Susan sometimes you’re on the money but this feels like standard issue feminist-backlash.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anon

      letting herself be cast as the object of every omega-male Harry Potter fan’s boner

      So she’s responsible for teenage boys jerking off to Harry Potter? I can’t imagine a more sexless role than Hermione Granger. So interesting that you hold her accountable for male fantasies, even when she’s avoiding the dreaded male gaze.

      Her attempt to self-define what men find as “Sexy” is IMO a childish refusal to accept the reality of what men find sexy that comes from a place of insecurity rather than confidence.

      She’s clearly not attempting to tell men what sexy is. She’s an 18 year old speaking about her discomfort with the media pressuring her to take her clothes off. Rollo twisted her meaning completely, as I demonstrated in the post.

      There wasn’t much wrong with Rollo’s “Sexy” article.

      Unfortunately (for women) Rollo’s message is cloaked in a great deal of snide and snarky anti-female rhetoric. His tone is objectionable, which is, again, obvious from the quotes here, and even his single comment. He’s one of those bloggers who brooks no disagreement, especially from women – at the first hint out comes the standard bluster.

      Strawman! Ad hominem! Solipsism! Femnogynocentricism!

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    The most important sex organ is the brain.
    For attraction, sure, for sexyness = unrelated.

    I had to think about that for awhile, but I think on a certain level this is true (i.e., unrelated). For a man, the sexual attraction is so immediate that a girls actions, words & behaviour have far less bearing than their just physically being in the world. Every day while walking in the street I see girls that within less than a second of first catching a glimpse of them out of the corner of my eye, I know I would like to fuck. I don’t know how that works but that’s pretty damn quick. There’s no time for them to run Game on me or impress me with their intellect or party tricks.

    But then again, the answer to this:

    “Will men perceive a hot, anxious woman in precisely the same way as a hot, smiling woman?”

    is no, so I guess it’s on a spectrum.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    ” Most guys would stick their penis is anything that has a 1/10000000 chance of birthing children.

    Hmmm, so sexy = place I will put my dick?”

    I think Lokland’s point was more that the question for men is not ‘why?’ but ‘why not?’, so being DTF is not necessarily a barometer of ‘sexy’. That’s an additional quality/phenomenon.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    So sluttiness is not always sexy, in your view?

    Sluttiness is never sexy, in my view.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    I wasn’t looking for you to cite my distaste of the slut look. I was just pointing out that Escoffier wasn’t alone among the men.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    No problem. Glad for the opportunity to share some literature.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Actually, to revise that last comment:

    Sluttiness is never sexy, only handy.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    “Hmmm, how does this square with your comment that Emma W isn’t sexy because she has zero joy? Kristen Stuart appears to have had her smile muscles wired shut.”

    @Susan

    Kristen Stewart, both on and off screen appears vulnerable, very feminine (although awkward) and as if she needs a man (you can see in group interviews she will let the guys talk, as she is somewhat interview shy). I think this vulnerability can be very attractive to some men, especially in the package of a very attractive thin girl.

    Emma Watson exudes confidence, but also a bit of icyness. Certainly no vulnerability . I think they are on more or less par in terms of the looks department, but I can see how Kristen would be more attractive to men. Some men like girls that need them, or that at least make them feel wanted.

    I’m a twilight fan so this may not be the most objective.

  • jess

    ….”Jesus Mahoney:

    “I don’t think you should be ashamed of your age ”

    THEN WHY MENTION IT?

    But I’d venture to say that most people would consider 2 dozen men at least moderately slutty.

    MY CATHOLIC FAMILY WOULD AGREE WITH YOU – BUT LONDON PEERS? NO CHANCE

    Doesn’t make you a bad person, of course.

    NOT DID YOUR SUMMER EXPERIENCES MAKE YOU A BAD PERSON

    I’m not trying to be cruel, btw.

    SURE YOU WERE, OTHERWISE WHY MAKE PERSONAL COMMENTS WHEN I WAS MAKING GENERAL COMMENTS about celebrity?

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com/2012/02/she-feels-so-damn-good.html Ted D

    I have never been fully attracted to slutty. It might make my tootsie roll a little, but I have never once looked at a woman dressed slutty and decided to pursue her for sex let alone a relationship.

  • jess

    How does a woman getting out of a taxi avoid a crotch shot when there is a zoom lens (or 10) aimed directly at her crotch?

    EASY- DONT WEAR A MICRO SKIRT!

    OR, IF YOU THINK YOUR CAREER NEEDS THAT KINDA SEXY ATTIRE THEN GET OUT THE CAR 2 BLOCKS EARLIER TO AVOID THE AWAITING CAMERAS

    NOT ROCKET SCIENCE METHINKS

  • jess

    “its just the whole celeb skin show is a bit meh (and not good for kids in my view).

    SW: Why not?”

    BECAUSE OUR MEDIA IS OVER SEXUALISED AND LEADS TO YOUNGER AND YOUNGER CHILDREN BEING OVERTLY SEXUAL.

    IF BRITNEY SPEARS OR RHINANNA OR EMMA WATSON ETC DRESS IN SCANTILY CLAD OUTFITS AT EVERY PUBLIC EVENT IT EFFECTS YOUNG GIRLS. NOT HEALTHY IMO.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      BECAUSE OUR MEDIA IS OVER SEXUALISED AND LEADS TO YOUNGER AND YOUNGER CHILDREN BEING OVERTLY SEXUAL.

      Yes, which leads to unhealthy, casual sex before kids are ready.

  • purplesneakers

    Lindsay – Right, I meant that it was embarrassing to be perceived as a lesbian, not that it’s embarrassing to be one. Because, hey, I’m not, and I’m definitely not ‘butch.’ Typically, female and gay male friends said it looked good, but surprisingly, so did two straight, attractive ‘bros’ I didn’t know all that well. (They didn’t try to pick me up though, and I guess that is the ultimate arbiter of whether it was sexy or not).

    Anacoana – yeah it is definitely cultural. My mother was *very* upset when I got the pixie cut.

    Women may choose to wear their hair long to be attractive to men, but we don’t owe it to you. It’s not legit for Rollo to rag on Emma Watson for not wanting to parade as a hooker. She makes her choices, she’ll evaluate her results, and adjust accordingly, presumably.

    Why the bitterness and resentment? Does a woman not have the right to choose her own hairstyle without being called frigid, pathetic and juvenile?

    +1 When I cut my hair I didn’t do it asking to be considered sexy, or expect guys to consider me sexier for it. I’m not stupid. What I’m getting is the sense that some men get mad when women do things to their appearance that they (the men) don’t find attractive, even if the woman isn’t asking him to find her attractive. Maybe it’s that very fact that makes some men mad? Dunno.

    Some male friends told me once that when they see a girl who is, “bleached blonde, overly tan, tons of make-up on, dressed in a very short dress with lots of cleavage showing, stripper heels,” they find her both ‘hot’ (I’m thinking they meant in the slutty sort of way, since we were in college) and pathetic because they think ‘damn that girl really wants to please men.’

  • purplesneakers

    Anon-

    No one else finds it pretentious or ironic in the least that Watson “refuses to do dumb, or be an object of any kind,” when she cashed in on millions by letting herself be cast as the object of every omega-male Harry Potter fan’s boner (assuming that even omegas aren’t more discerning in taste) in the seven HP films. She’s an actress so pretty much right off the bat I’m going to conclude that she’s also a hulking narcissist of a young woman.

    This is ridiculous. She was what, 10? when she signed onto the films.

    Also, I find that British film/tv is actually a better place for actors who want to focus on ACTING rather than just being sexy and getting famous, like in Hollywood. In general I think there is a different approach to acting across the Atlantic, and it’s not only/mainly for narcissists like it is in the U.S.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In general I think there is a different approach to acting across the Atlantic, and it’s not only/mainly for narcissists like it is in the U.S.

      Agreed. This is why an American remake of anything is bound to be subpar.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    Ok first of all I had to google this gal to even know who she is. Secondly, perusing the comments I recognized the names (Susan’s checklist doesn’t count, but I didn’t do so well there) I recognized maybe one in three (I’m being generous). So measure my remarks accordingly.

    First of all, let’s look at her professionally. She is an actress and model. As an actress, her job requires her to :1) look they way the director wants her to look and 2) deliver the lines as he wants them delivered. Period. She gets lots of $ for that. As a model, she is to look the way the photographer wants her to. Finis; $.

    As for the general public, she’s right-she owes them nothing beyond that enumerated above. I’ve wondered where the Hollywood hype machine ends and the true bad ass conduct begins-probably somewhere around serious rehab. She doesn’t like the intrusions of stardom. Ok, well, you can always join the 6,999,999 plus of us who no one gives a shit about. It’s easy. If you’re a singer, take voice lessons from Yoko Ono (see how easy that was Sinead?) Actor-well, show up on oxycotin on a few shoots and send the insurance companies (I’ll provide you a list) who underwrite the major projects a detailed account of how much you like Rx dope and you’ll be doing King Lear in drag on off-off-off-off-off Broadway in 13 seconds. Anyway, girl, if you don’t want to play the game, don’t. But spare us the hoisting of yourself on a pyre like fucking Joan of Arc fer’ Chrissake’s.

    As for the hair, when I first saw the post I thought “oh yeah, Twiggie/Mia”.
    Twiggie became a hit in England because she reminded every British man of the boy he got his first blow job from in the “public schools” (term is opposite of what it would mean here) they attended. Dunno’ why Frank married Mia; don’t think he liked boys. I think she was young and hot and he was sayin’ “I can still get the tenderest meat there is”. Glad he’s not around to read this; just suggesting he liked boys would probably get my arm stuffed up my ass, if not the full my-name-is-a-freeway-offramp-treatment.

    Now, on to the subject of “less is more”. I am an ass man-totally to the appreciation of, contemplation of, study and meditation upon the women’s derrieres. Have been since I saw Hailey Mill’s framed in her pretty prim white panties in 1960′s “The Parent Trap”(Emily Lloyd’s naked rear in “Wish You Were Here” were a welcome reminder that British lasses have fine asses-poet!) As such I am qualified to render an opinion on the subject of that-which-is-revealed-and-that-which-is-withheld controversy. I look at a gaggle of women on the beach and I will say categorically that seeing their posterior in a bathing suit bottom is far sexier than if they were naked. Far. Now in some cases it’s not easy to distinguish as between the two; some suits look like they might as well put a band aid over their butt hole and called it good. But even there, even those floss-like bottoms, where the could have achieved more coverage outlining the crack of their ass with a magic marker, still-I KNOW I ain’t seeing it all, and that makes all the difference. (ref Robert Frost’s “The Road Not Taken”).

    So we have resolution and peace finally. Parenthetically, I was unable to see any marked difference between our editor’s “camera shoot” and her current one, except perhaps her bangs are longer now. Wait! Did I just FART! (for those new to the site, this refers to Flirtation Alert, a very serious defalcation noted when the undersigned “hits on” (is the expression still used? or has it been discarded?) the editor. It seems ages ago such things mattered. Sigh.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    Intelligence looks sexy on a woman. It occurs to me with this thread that men are committing their own fallacy. It seems like a lot of guys prefer the appearance of women who look easy to “game.” A girl like Watson, who in my opinion looks like she’d be fairly immune to Roissy-style game, is considered unsexy. Olsen, who looks incredibly easy to game, is considered more desirable in comparison.

    Interesting, I perceive the contrary.

    Watson more mental, colder: easier to “game”. either boring or wicked up sex, ego / narcissism challenges, terrible for long term relationships.

    Olsen more feminine / feelings / down to earth: harder to “game”. good for being the mother of children.

    In the last 10 years I´ve had too bad LTRs, both were with girls that had the kind of emotional distance Watson has. There was some “mental” to it that was uncrackable. The first one was a drama queen but also one of the smartest people I have ever known, the sencond was a candy queen that only cared about herself and had no empathy. Both are much closer to Watson´s vibe that they are to Olsen´s.

    So I´ll go for emotional vulnerability next time.

    I still find intelligence hot though.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Mike C and Yohami, you’re being deliberately obtuse (at best). No one is saying that short hair is sexy, or that intelligence and education make a woman sexy. You’re essentially trolling to claim that.

    No you are. But I always wonder why you seem to troll your own blog when you go in adversary mode. Since this post again was adversary mode (taking down Rollo) maybe I should just stay away.

    “When I woman feels she´s not sexy she´s not” and stuff like that. Cmon.

    Then you keep twisting Rollo´s argument. He came and re exposed it, you ignored it, I commented on it, candice comented on it, mike commented on it, the thing about sexyiness NOT being sluttiness came up once and again… you ignore it. So.

    Its ok to disagree. But in a debate each party should be addressing what they disagree on their opponents discourse. You´re disagreeing with the “air” here. Strawman style.

    I know you´ll find this stuff patronizing. But hey, regular stuff, I know when I call you on something you prefer to find something obtuse on myself, rather than reflect on yourself.

    I already know Im obtuse, thanks.

    Check yourself now.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami

      Your first response to this post was to share which photos you found intriguing, who you’d like to fuck. Most of your subsequent comments have done the same. No one cares who you want to fuck. It’s entirely beside the point of the post. So you were trolling from the start.

      Rollo was the one who twisted Emma Watson’s meaning entirely, apparently without bothering to read the interview he sourced.

      diatribe…inane post-pubescent aphorisms

      In fact, she was an 18 year old girl talking about feeling uncomfortable parading her sexuality in the media. Let’s see what else Rollo said…

      It’s a pity that Emma doesn’t understand how to be sexy, but she’s in the majority; precious few women know what turns men on, and still fewer have any capacity to effectively be so.

      How does Emma Watson’s position on revealing her body demonstrate that she does not understand how to be sexy?

      How does it makes sense to say that precious few women know how to turn men on, when most are sluts and sluttiness is always sexy?

      Why does Rollo claim that fewer than precious few women have any capacity to be sexy?

      If you respond, please answer these questions, not attack me personally. Rollo couldn’t do it, and now you’re avoiding answering the precise question that the post addressed.

      Again, to repeat: I do not care whom you find sexy. This post is not about whether short hair is sexy, or who you hope to fuck next time around. This post is about whether it is rational for a male to attack a woman’s decision to present herself in a non-sexual way to the world, deeming her incapable of generating sexual attraction in men. That’s what Rollo did. Do you agree or disagree with his position?

  • purplesneakers

    is it just me or does elizabeth olsen look like a mix of maggie gyllenhall, alyson hannigan, and rashida jones?

  • Sassy6519

    Actually, it was both. And that certainly isn’t all inclusive. There are the Hopes, and Jackies, and Olives and Anacoanas that are or should be role models.

    I have fallen off the pedestal ever so quickly.

    *Sobs*

    I think Lokland’s point was more that the question for men is not ‘why?’ but ‘why not?’, so being DTF is not necessarily a barometer of ‘sexy’. That’s an additional quality/phenomenon.

    This is definitely a manifestation of the Filter vs. Net idea again. A man actively assessing why he is attracted to a woman could be detrimental to his ability to acquire sex. Putting a potential mate under a microscope of scrutiny, like most women instinctively do, would be bad for men because it would narrow down the pool of women he would want to sleep with. Asking “Why not?” is better for men while asking “Why?” is better for women. Both thought processes serve their respective genders well.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @ Byron # 271

    Or as Frank Zappa put it: “what is the dirtiest part of your body/ I think it’s your mind’

    #240

    When it absolutely positively must get said -Bukowski. What Henry Miller thought he was writing. (Yeah and like a lot of greats, he wasn’t consistent. But if you want consistency, read Herman Wouk or James Michener. In comedy, see Seinfeld, not Sam Kinison).

    Re: mine #289
    Math off: meant to say 6,999,999,999 of us.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    Errata

    “dedicated totally to”

    “was a welcome reminder”

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Do you agree with Rollo’s statements about Emma Watson and women in particular? That is the topic here.

    Watson decide to remove the sluttiness from herself and go classy, that´s valid. She also removed the sexiness, not just the sluttiness, which is not the same thing.

    Rollo´s point is that women dont understand “sexy” because most think its about being slutty, when there are ways to be sexy without the sluttiness, and I agree with that.

    And in this post it does seem like you keep making sexy=slut, so you´re conceding the point to Rollo too.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Rollo´s point is that women dont understand “sexy” because most think its about being slutty, when there are ways to be sexy without the sluttiness, and I agree with that.

      How does writing an attack post on Emma Watson demonstrate his point? He was responding to Watson’s comments on not vamping it up for the media to claim that she is essentially asexual and clueless about men.

      We all know that it is possible to be sexy without being slutty, or man would be extinct by now. Duh. What’s radical is Rollo’s claim that sluttiness is always sexy. There are certainly several men here who disagree, so I don’t understand why you believe we should take that at face value.

      How have I said that sexy = slut? I am saying the opposite. Women can be very sexual, and sexy, without walking around with their sexuality on display.

      As for whether a woman feeling sexy has any direct impact on her sexiness, I’ll ask the men…

      Is there any difference in how sexy you find a woman while fucking her, based on how sexy she feels, as evidenced by her degree of interest in sex? Or is an indifferent sexual partner every bit as sexy?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Interesting article, Yohami.

    Yes, that´s like a succinct masterclass on game / inner game and biology.

    I spent all night reading that guy´s blog. I experienced a couple of awakenings (not because of that post but some drops of wisdom here and there). Amazing stuff.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    “Some male friends told me once that when they see a girl who is, “bleached blonde, overly tan, tons of make-up on, dressed in a very short dress with lots of cleavage showing, stripper heels,” they find her both ‘hot’ (I’m thinking they meant in the slutty sort of way, since we were in college) and pathetic because they think ‘damn that girl really wants to please men.’”

    Nah. Just certain men, after a certain thing. It is extra pathetic because I think most girls know this. It is a cheap and easy way of getting attention, but unfortunately one that does not lead to anything long term (b/c if a girl like that turns out to be a prude, the guy can reasonably be upset over false advertising. Turn it around- wouldn’t you be annoyed at a mechanic that dressed like a Wall Street bankster?).

    There are ways of being extremely attractive to men without looking pathetic. Long pretty well done hair (straight if possible) with body, good skin, showing the best 1 of three (although cleavage looks slutty most of the time.) , smiling a lot-looking fun, and being thin. Wear red and bright colors. I would also say that a few fashion forward pieces, when done right (accompanied by a piece that men would find attractive- think maybe high waisted or paperbag pants with a corset top, or short shorts with a silky open blazer.)

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QHdccuNNNfc/S8slABGnWWI/AAAAAAAAABg/BwFeNRBQJBg/s1600/P1010616.JPG

    This girl doesn’t dress for men, but I’d say she looks pretty hot and would attract attention.

    Note the subtle differences, in contrast this girl looks like she’s trying too hard….and slightly slutty. http://assets0.chictopia.com/photos/risse/6174804722/6174804722.jpg?1232680015

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      (although cleavage looks slutty most of the time.)

      It’s funny you should say that. Last night I watched North and South, a British period drama set in the 1800s. The main character, a preacher’s daughter and woman of unassailable virtue, attends a ball with most of her breasts visible above the rise of her gown. This was clearly considered appropriate feminine attire for virgins. Other periods in history have also exposed much more cleavage than we consider slutty today. Ironic.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    The beauty bias holds for both sexes in general, not just publishing

    That´s true. It doesnt make me angry though. GudEnuf´s comment about “just like a man” is pure bias.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    The most important sex organ is the brain.
    For attraction, sure, for sexyness = unrelated.

    This is very interesting. Can you describe the difference between sexiness and sexual attraction?

    Megan Fox is sexy, I got a boner when I saw her in Transformers. But Im guessing if I interacted with her, her lack of persona / brain power would crush that boner quickly.

    I know a bunch of sexy girls Im not attracted to. My body say´s yum, but I as a whole dont feel it. When we put the brain in the equation, we´re talking about attractive personalities and chemistry, not just physical appearance. So of course the physical aspect is the first card, but its not the only card.

    Will men perceive a hot, anxious woman in precisely the same way as a hot, smiling woman? Is a woman sexier if she appears interested in you? Is a very hot woman sexy if she is passed out – do you still feel the same desire to have sex with her?

    A distressed hot woman trigger´s the white knight and protective gene, she doesnt lose the sexiness. In a predator kind of guy, distress is sexy for other reasons.

    But happiness / smiling / fertility are more sexy than the lack of, unless the guy has some problems with happiness / smiling (like he cant relate or doesnt feel comfortable with that)

    Say this guy hot from Friday Night Lights is sitting on the bench all sweaty and with the focused / consternation on his face and you find him sexy. What difference does it make for you if he doesnt feel sexy? your body is already telling you what he is.

    Point is, sexiness aint defined from your own feelings and thoughts, even if you, with your feelings and thoughts, can alter your own sexiness.

    Women undervalue the physical in men / screen for the bigger picture, the emotional state and character of the guy play a bigger part on if they find a guy sexy or not. But it´s not related to if the guy thinks he is sexy or not, it only relates to the girl´s checklist, either she finds what she´s looking for in him or not.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Say this guy hot from Friday Night Lights is sitting on the bench all sweaty and with the focused / consternation on his face and you find him sexy. What difference does it make for you if he doesnt feel sexy? your body is already telling you what he is.

      As you point out, there is a great deal of information available at first glance (or sniff, or whatever). We know that men are turned on by pheromones, not just visuals, the process is pretty complex, chemically speaking.

      My body will tell me something different based on how the man is presenting himself. If Kyle Chandler is sloppy drunk, I do not think he is sexy. If he is giggling like a schoolgirl, I do not think he is sexy. If he is sweaty and focused, he is sexy. If he is playing with his toddler, he is sexy. If he is sneering at his wife, he is not sexy. If he is feeling sexy and experiencing life’s joys and smiling in a way that makes others feel good, that is the sexiest thing of all. All of this will be processed in a second or two.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Sexual,

    So sexual energy is unrelated to joy, but both can affect attraction in different ways?

    Yes, joy is attractive, smarts are attractive, physical is attractive, character, etc, pieces on a puzzle. Sexy doesnt mean body. Even when body is what most men care about, its not the ONLY piece and not the only way.

    For you it seems clear that sexiness is not just about physical traits. You’ve identified two psychological things that influence it for you.

    Yeah of course. Sexiness is not just about physical traits. But hey that was Rollo´s point too, and what a lot of women seem to be missing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sexiness is not just about physical traits. But hey that was Rollo´s point too, and what a lot of women seem to be missing.

      I’m definitely missing that in Rollo’s remarks. If sluttiness is always sexy, then why would anything else be needed? It seems to me that Rollo is arguing that Watson’s unwillingness to bare her body in a way that feels slutty to her precludes her being sexy. He does not consider or mention any other traits.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    So sluttiness is not always sexy, in your view?

    If we define sluttiness as ready-to-fuck and showing-skin, sluttiness is always sexy.

    But then we have personalities and morality and its easy to transgress people´s sensibilities on a personal basis, and we all have different thresholds.

    I dont like porn for example.

    Still, get me exposed to any part of the female body and my own body pays full attention.

    NSFW http://img.funtasticusnsfw.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/photozip/032103club_girls/club_girls_14.jpg

    See. I dont like that girl – I wouldnt go talk to her – but did I look at her tits? for a split second I totally fucked her. Is this the route girls have to take to be sexy? not at all.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Byron > Susan > Lokland

    I think Lokland’s point was more that the question for men is not ‘why?’ but ‘why not?’, so being DTF is not necessarily a barometer of ‘sexy’. That’s an additional quality/phenomenon.

    That. I dont find Watson “sexy”. Would I fuck her? in my mind I already did.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      so being DTF is not necessarily a barometer of ‘sexy’

      That is a 180 degree contradiction to Rollo’s claim, assuming that being DTF is reflected in the woman’s appearance.

  • Desiderius

    There are a lot of wonderful women (and, come to think of it, beta males too) who are hopelessly stuck in the frumpy zone because they believe that catering to instinctive attraction triggers, whether through “looking sexy”, however defined, for women, or learning game for men, is somehow beneath them or at least insufficiently authentic. The problem is that appealing somewhat to those attractors (the 1 in 3 rule, eliminating anti-game) is a healthy signal that you are someone who takes the needs of your (prospective) partner seriously.

    I don’t hear, or see, Watson doing that.

    You can get away with the short hair because of what the rest of your face says, and you’ve got the personality to back it up (owing an undetermined amount of that personality to an upbringing many young women no longer enjoy). Emma Watson can get away with it (is she in fact? any data on her actual love life?) because the rest of her face is profoundly attractive as is the Hermione character that she repeatedly hints at wanting to now get beyond, just not in a sexual way.

    Yes, I agree that Watson slutting it up would be horrifying. Androgynizing herself is, however, not much better.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Flavia,

    Kristen Stewart, both on and off screen appears vulnerable, very feminine (although awkward) and as if she needs a man (you can see in group interviews she will let the guys talk, as she is somewhat interview shy). I think this vulnerability can be very attractive to some men, especially in the package of a very attractive thin girl.

    Emma Watson exudes confidence, but also a bit of icyness. Certainly no vulnerability . I think they are on more or less par in terms of the looks department, but I can see how Kristen would be more attractive to men. Some men like girls that need them, or that at least make them feel wanted.

    That. Plus for some reason she always looks like she had sex a minute ago.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Your first response to this post was to share which photos you found intriguing, who you’d like to fuck. Most of your subsequent comments have done the same. No one cares who you want to fuck. It’s entirely beside the point of the post.

    Im pointing to different angles of sexy that dont revolve around sluttiness, since the point here is “defining sexy”

    So you were trolling from the start.

    Nope.

    ROLLO: It’s a pity that Emma doesn’t understand how to be sexy, but she’s in the majority; precious few women know what turns men on, and still fewer have any capacity to effectively be so.

    SUSAN: How does Emma Watson’s position on revealing her body demonstrate that she does not understand how to be sexy?

    Except Rollo´s point is that sexy is not about being slutty. You should be agreeing with him.

    How does it makes sense to say that precious few women know how to turn men on, when most are sluts and sluttiness is always sexy?

    It makes sense when you add femininity and seduction to the equation. You can underplay the sluttiness and play femininity seduction and it makes for a better sexy cocktail. That again is Rollo´s point.

    Why does Rollo claim that fewer than precious few women have any capacity to be sexy?

    Because most women think showing tits is enough. And it IS enough to get the boner on. But the seduction / femininity is like a lost art.

    If you respond, please answer these questions, not attack me personally. Rollo couldn’t do it, and now you’re avoiding answering the precise question that the post addressed.

    I think I did? but Im just paraphrasing Rollo´s point, which was already on his post.

    This post is about whether it is rational for a male to attack a woman’s decision to present herself in a non-sexual way to the world, deeming her incapable of generating sexual attraction in men. That’s what Rollo did. Do you agree or disagree with his position?

    What rollo did is to attack the notion that sexyness = sluttiness. It goes again, but many other guys did the same as so did I, and I linked to different girls to point the difference.

    Sluttiness (aka, being ready to fuck, showing skin ) is always sexy. But then there are degrees that might cross personal sensibilities. In my case, that gets crossed early.

    Sexiness is not ONLY about showing skin and being ready to fuck. Add femininity / seduction / joy and on and on, and it´s a better cocktail.

    I think criticizing Watson is on point because she´s not turning the slut down (good for her) but making it as turning the sexy down. Hey, sexy doesnt mean slut. You can be full of sexy (attractive to men) without showing your pants. So Watson is shutting down herself, not just the slut.

    But as I see her, she probably doesnt have it on herself, like I said, its like she doesnt have the pieces.

    Portman is full of sexy and classy.

    Watson is not just non-sexy, but non-sexual non-seductive non-feminine.

    She seems to think sexy=slut. It aint.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami

      I didn’t want you to think I was ignoring your comment, but I won’t repeat myself further. We’ll agree to disagree. I get a very, very different message from Rollo’s post, as I believe most women would.

      The female shaming is strong in Rollo. If I recall correctly, he is in the liquor business, servicing casinos in Las Vegas. If that is true, he sees a very particular slice of the female species – women who display their bodies and their sexuality for a living. Perhaps this explains his attitude towards the female sex.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    All of this will be processed in a second or two.

    Yep, such a complex cocktail.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yep, such a complex cocktail.

      Do you know how many millions of synapses fire in order for you to have a single thought? (Out of the 100-500 trillion in your brain?)

      Sarcasm is a weak move.

  • Just1X

    I remember seeing the young Emma on TV before the first movie, what an absolutely revolting precocious brat she was. Presumably it is helpful for an actress, the two boys seemed pretty normal. Given the years of fame, I can’t see her personality having developed out of the obnoxious attention whore phase, she might be getting a bit bored of the attention though.

    And Susan, nice list of beautiful women with short hair, but most men would think that they’d look better with longer cuts…I swear to you! It’s like most ‘high’ fashion that looks great on top models…they’d look great in bin-bags.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And Susan, nice list of beautiful women with short hair, but most men would think that they’d look better with longer cuts…I swear to you! It’s like most ‘high’ fashion that looks great on top models…they’d look great in bin-bags.

      Yup, I get it. My point was that these women made a choice which ostensibly included more criteria than the male gaze.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        @Yohami

        Women don’t need to seduce men anymore. The feminine-priority dynamic has put a default value on women’s sexuality. Those hot enough to simply wear something revealing never need seduction, and those not hot enough can’t sell it anyway.

        There he goes with the feminazigynocentricXXism.

        What he says has always been true. Women’s sexuality has always been the code that men try to crack, as we face far greater risks with each sexual encounter. Have women ever needed to do anything more than take off their clothes to get sex? Why should a woman seduce a man for sex? Because he’s the top dog, with his superior genes? But the top dog doesn’t demand seduction very often. In this SMP, he’s much more likely to hit it and quit it than be seduced by a woman who knows how to do it right, i.e. slow.

        There is no incentive for women to seduce men in this market.

        In any case, I still don’t see the connection to Emma Watson’s choosing not to strip for the cameras. Her remark about “less is more” speaks directly to seduction, yet Rollo has no patience for it. So yeah, Rollo still doesn’t make sense.

        By the way, he was the one who said “never mind” and bailed on the thread. No point in responding when he was gone. He likes to do that, leave snarky comments and then make it clear he’s not sticking around for a reply.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    I’m definitely missing that in Rollo’s remarks. If sluttiness is always sexy, then why would anything else be needed? It seems to me that Rollo is arguing that Watson’s unwillingness to bare her body in a way that feels slutty to her precludes her being sexy. He does not consider or mention any other traits.

    He does, he pasted the rest of his comment here, and I quoted it and bolded it, and I´ve been repeating the second aspect to it. Here it goes again.

    A guy get´s turned on in the presence of readily available sex / skin, etc. Gimme a naked female body and I get a boner. 99% chance.

    But being sexy goes well beyond that because its a more complex cocktail than just the physical aspect.

    Femininity joy smiles happiness character etc.

    Rollo´s point is that women seem to have forgotten about all the aspects to sexiness and that they only consider the physical part. So if they want to be sexy they go slut (ready to fuck, skin, tits in your face).

    Which is a shame (again, paraphrasing Rollo) because there´s more to it.

    Watson plays down the slut, but she´s left with nothing: she doesnt have the other stuff either. She kills the slut, which is good, but she´s not “attractive” beyond superficial physical beauty (except of Jesus who finds her smart, but I think he´s confounding coldness with brain power)

    And killing the slut shouldnt be about killing the sexy

    And skin+ready to fuck is sexy, but there´s more to it.

    Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Susan, I like that you wrote down the Merriam-Webster definition of sexy. At work both my male and female bosses will toss out the word like “genetics is really sexy right now” or “the latest sexy topic in the medical industry.” At first it was really odd. Now I’m used to it. They’re definitely using the second definition, appealing/interesting, rather than erotic/sexual.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Flavia
    Welcome Twisister. :) Unless you are Team Jacob in which case you can go in the corner with Olive :p

    That. Plus for some reason she always looks like she had sex a minute ago.

    Is very interesting because she might does looks like that, and frankly if she and Rob were riding the same limo when going to the premieres it might be true, but she is not slutty either.
    Check this who wore it better link: http://www.robstendreams.com/2011/01/kristen-stewart-vs-lauren-santo-domingo.html
    Watson body language screams “don’t touch me” and if you check her premieres full lengths pictures she is always crossing her legs. Kristen is looking away from the camera but her body language is seductive and open to seduction or/and being seduced I think that is another key missing Emma looks like she doesn’t need to get laid ever she is “too smart to get horny” sort of look. I will say maybe is just her image and maybe is because her best angles are the ones where she looks like that, only time will tell.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    I see the ego in Watson, but not the narcissism. I don’t know much about her beyond what I’ve seen here, though, so it could be I’m just missing something.

    She also doesn’t strike me as being emotionally vacuous (whereas Olsen at looks intellectually vacuous to me). I think I see what you’re getting at though. Seems to me that Watson’s strong exterior is hiding something deep and vulnerable, though. Sometimes a rough exterior is just a sign of roughness through and through. Sounds like that’s the type you’ve had to deal with in past relationships.

    Olsen (I know nothing about her, just judging her book by her cover) looks soft and vulnerable on the outside, which generally means that’s how she is through and through. That’s not a bad quality (unless you’re not into simple people), but when you find it in a halfway decent looking girl, it usually (in my experience) means she’s been used. That doesn’t make her “damaged goods”, but it doesn’t inspire much trust either.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The projection of full-fledged personalities onto these celebrity photos by the men here is fascinating. Maybe it’s all about the visual to start, but from there you branch out and start filling in blanks significantly. It seems that in this conversation at least, male sexual attraction is very nuanced.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Just1X, really? In my book 10-year-olds get a pass for trying to get attention. Kids like attention from people. I loved it when I was a kid, and I would do all sorts of stuff like sing, dance, act goofy just to see my grandparents smile or laugh. It probably got rather annoying for the adults, but kids don’t really know any better. It doesn’t make 10-year-old little Emma Watson a narcissist. Maybe a little bratty, but who was ever a perfectly behaved kid?

  • Rum

    I could nor post this right away because I needed to bang my head against the wall a few times just to calm myself.
    Susan, how in the name of Venus is a man supposed to perceive just how “sexy” a woman happens to feel about herself at any given time?
    Women grossly over rate what men can tell about their internal mood-states. And sometimes I think that women value mens responses less the more obvious they make their clues. Like, if you have to tell him verbally that you are horny it does not count. And this stuff can change for women from heart beat to heart-beat. And if a guy gets it wrong he is routinely punished.
    Fortunately, if a guy just takes the lead and works her buttons right and thoroughly her mood can usually be improved. But this is different than somehow knowing for sure where she is at any given second.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      Susan, how in the name of Venus is a man supposed to perceive just how “sexy” a woman happens to feel about herself at any given time?

      I agree, it’s not the male’s reponsibility to decipher a woman’s emotions, or to what degree she is “feeling it.” I didn’t mean to imply that. I was just asking if a woman is sexier to you if she’s into it, rather than if she seems indifferent. It’s a theoretical question, so assume an evident gap.

  • http://funandsocial.blogspot.com Nutz

    Cute vs Beautiful vs Sexy are variations of how an attractive woman presents herself.

    Slutty is just a poor attempt at one of the above (usually sexy), or a purposeful attempt at cultivating nothing more than raw lust and attraction.

  • Mike C

    Susan,

    Comment #185:

    @Mike C

    You can go back through the comments already posted and see the majority of guys would think she is more beautiful with long hair.

    ****That was never up for debate.***** I specifically clarified what the post was not about, namely this.

    You in comment #123

    The short hair accentuates her facial features. Short hair makes eyes look larger, and cheekbones more pronounced. The focus on the face is magnified. Very beautiful women can not only pull off short hair, they can look more beautiful with it. By the way, a woman wearing her hair up has very much the same effect. That’s why women do it when they want to appear most beautiful and elegant.

    If it is NOT up for debate per comment 185, then why make your statement in 123? If your position is what you said in 123, great, no prob. But why the attempt in 185 to try and backpedal and make a statement like 123 doesn’t exist. With all due respect, you’ve made greater use of this tactic of over hundreds of comments in a thread shifting positions, and not directly addressing previous points….what Yohami called adversary mode.

    The title of this post is Defining Sexy. A woman’s hairstyle is inextricably linked with her sexiness. Any suggestion otherwise is completely and utterly absurd. That doesn’t mean a woman should wear her hair to maximize her sex appeal to men.

  • Just1X

    @Hope,

    maybe, maybe…my recollection from seeing the film (quite a bit later, I’m not really a fan) was that the on-screen nauseating princess character of the first film would have required little to no actual acting ability from her.

    Perhaps she’s changed, a fair few years have passed, but I can’t help thinking that her celeb life would not have been conducive to a balanced personality. I hope she’s managed a little normality whilst growing up, certainly her on screen role has ‘improved’.

    The picture here makes her look a little like a sickly effeminate boy to me, which should indicate a good career on the catwalk as a female model. Gotta say I prefer less androgeny and more feminity personally…YMMV.

    I hope that she isn’t up tight about her perceived sexuality, but I also agree that she isn’t my idea of stunning (so maybe the look is a smart bit of product differentiation). She’s definitely aging better than LL. In a few years LL could model for ‘the scream’ by Munch (but with more hair)

    http://oaks.nvg.org/an3ra2.html

    oops, I mean

    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://oaks.nvg.org/p/muskrim.jpg&imgrefurl=http://oaks.nvg.org/an3ra2.html&h=1036&w=813&sz=295&tbnid=8wDVwZTQcBXDBM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=71&zoom=1&docid=UgJ_hrJXGoWEVM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JsA2T63rLoOk8gOB5YmgAg&ved=0CE0Q9QEwBQ&dur=153

  • Just1X

    @Rum

    “Women grossly over rate what men can tell about their internal mood-states. And sometimes I think that women value mens responses less the more obvious they make their clues”

    The trick is not to care…this could be part of the reason that men’s sensitivity is regarded as legendarily bad. It’s the male version of playing dumb so as not to get pulled into the drama du jour.

    (p.s. I said ‘part of’, not the only reason)

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Yep, such a complex cocktail.

    Do you know how many millions of synapses fire in order for you to have a single thought? (Out of the 100-500 trillion in your brain?)

    Sarcasm is a weak move.

    It wasnt sarcasm. It IS a complex cocktail.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami

      It wasnt sarcasm. It IS a complex cocktail.

      Whoops, my apologies for taking that the wrong way.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    I do agree with the guys that the longer the list of traits a woman demands appreciation for, the smaller the pool of potentially interested men. So I have no patience for women who demand to know where all the good men have gone, or to blame men for not appreciating all their traits.

    You are obviously a little more perceptive than a lot of women when it comes to this topic but your words still carry the implication that men are somehow “shallow” for not being able to appreciate certain traits in a woman.

    A HUGE part of the problem with the mating game today is modern women’s desire to impose attractiveness standards on men, It doesn’t matter what you wish to be attractive to a man; it only matters what is encoded in his DNA.

    You would love to be valued for your intelligence (among other things) but the fact of the matter is that anything above average or slightly above average is a negative. Sorry, that’s just the way it is. I didn’t make the rules I’m just trying to make you understand that nature designed it this way and no amount of wishing is going to change it.

    If you want to be optimally attractive to men the formula is simple- be feminine. Be the opposite of what you seek in a man. If you try to tinker with the formula you are only going to be met with resistance.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Good Luck Chuck

      You are obviously a little more perceptive than a lot of women when it comes to this topic but your words still carry the implication that men are somehow “shallow” for not being able to appreciate certain traits in a woman.

      That is not my intent. I believe that male attraction cues will not be altered by feminism or any other dogma. They are what they are. Women are best off if they understand them.

      You would love to be valued for your intelligence (among other things) but the fact of the matter is that anything above average or slightly above average is a negative. Sorry, that’s just the way it is.

      I have reason to question whether that is true of all men. I have known several men who almost have a fetish for smart women. Perhaps because the IQ gene is carried on the X chromosome. In any case, my husband and I, and also the couples we socialize with, enjoy discussions on a wide range of topics, none of which would be possible with a person of average intelligence (IQ = 100). My husband is probably smarter than me, by a bit, and he’s very, very smart. Perhaps it’s the smartest men who want to mate with the smartest women, IDK.

  • Mike C

    How does Emma Watson’s position on revealing her body demonstrate that she does not understand how to be sexy?

    I’ll address this question. Because she CATEGORICALLY states sexiness is LESS IS MORE.

    No, not for *most* men. The whole less is more, the “wondering” that is what is sexy for woman about a man. IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY FOR A MAN. Most men want to at least see some of the goods so to speak.

    Here is an example to illustrate. Few if any women get turned on/sexually excited by male strippers, by some guy shaking his dick in their face. So. Less is more. They’d rather see the guy in the suit or uniform and “wonder”. Most men in contrast will get very turned on by a hot woman shaking her tits and pussy in his face.

    Now we have no idea what Emma is like in her private life. Maybe she does dial up the sexiness with just her SO. Again, she may have very good reasons for not putting out a “sexy” image for public consumption. But that is different from saying a boy haircut dressed in a burka is sexy because less is more.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C.

      No, not for *most* men. The whole less is more, the “wondering” that is what is sexy for woman about a man. IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY FOR A MAN. Most men want to at least see some of the goods so to speak.

      She said that is her idea of sexy. She is clearly not employing a strategy to maximize her sexiness to “most men.” If anything, it’s clear the opposite is true. That’s the way she wants to deploy her own sexiness. She wants to leave them wondering. I guess that wouldn’t work on you, but there are at least four (?) men on this thread who prefer her strategy. The net/filter metaphor works well her. This woman needs a ginormous filter! And she’s protecting her image as a serious, intellectual actress, which is another part of her strategy. That’s her choice, and it doesn’t mean that she doesn’t know how to be sexy when she wants to.

      But that is different from saying a boy haircut dressed in a burka is sexy because less is more.

      No one said that. This is Emma being “less is more.”

      ew

      Is she sexy?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    She also doesn’t strike me as being emotionally vacuous (whereas Olsen at looks intellectually vacuous to me). I think I see what you’re getting at though. Seems to me that Watson’s strong exterior is hiding something deep and vulnerable, though.

    I agree that Olsen seems intellectually vacuous, and Watson looks more intellectual. At least that´s what the pictures say.

    Sometimes a rough exterior is just a sign of roughness through and through. Sounds like that’s the type you’ve had to deal with in past relationships.

    Yep. I just traced the source of it, thanks to some blogs (Ricky´s Rawness and TLP). Seems like since I didnt have love in my childhood, I go and invest myself on less responding people and try to gain their affection. Which is a bait for narcissists. Lesson learned.

    When I picture Olsen as hot though, I imagine her reading a book, that´s what puts the kiss on it. When I picture Watson, I imagine her with that stiff armor around her and keeping it unbreakable.

    But you´re right in that sometimes the armor hides something fragile and precious. Thing is will it ever open.

    I totally get why either can be attractive. If your girlfriend has the Watson posture, man I wish she does crack and open for you. Still the point here was the sexy vs sluttiness angle.

    Check that video on my blog. The stiffness on the mother makes the kid try harder until he starts acting up. Very freaking deep.

  • AM

    Pretty much agree with everything yohami and mike c and others echoing their viewpoints have said.

    I think the those men are taking issue with the overall tone of the post, which seems to subtextually say “I deem this to be the standard of a sexy woman, and you men WILL agree with me.” There’s also the seemingly combative nature of the post’s tone, which will immediately cause a reaction from most “alpha-type” men (i.e. those not afraid to express their viewpoints).

    When I read “slutty means sexy” I took it to mean that dressing provocatively, or in some way inducing the idea of being open to sex, is sexy. That is just an undeniable fact for men. Whether that instant rush of attraction is tempered by other factors is a whole other issue.

    If Emma Watson were to say “I know what is sexy, but I want to downplay that right now because of x, x and x”, men would react much better than her currently saying “I believe Y is sexy”, where Y is something in direct contradiction to what men find sexy.

    Her way of stating things is a turn-off to men because it implies she wants to control her man’s sexuality rather than being someone willing to please her partner.

    To be honest though, it’s hard to address the post because it is approaching things from all the wrong angles.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @AM

      I think the those men are taking issue with the overall tone of the post, which seems to subtextually say “I deem this to be the standard of a sexy woman, and you men WILL agree with me.”

      No, you’re projecting. The post is a response to one that said, “I deem this flighty bitch to be dry as a river bed, which just goes to show you how women don’t know how to excite us anymore.”

      Her way of stating things is a turn-off to men because it implies she wants to control her man’s sexuality rather than being someone willing to please her partner.

      Wait, women dressing modestly is controlling men’s sexuality now? She’s talking about photo shoots not “her man’s sexuality” – the context is clear in the quote. Why are you extrapolating to say that she won’t show her lover her body? This interview was about her public persona, not her private life. Rollo was the one who twisted it completely out of context.

      To be honest though, it’s hard to address the post because it is approaching things from all the wrong angles.

      Or you’re threatened and taking things the wrong way. It’s fascinating how worked up the men have gotten over this.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Mike C,

    I’ll address this question. Because she CATEGORICALLY states sexiness is LESS IS MORE.

    No, not for *most* men. The whole less is more, the “wondering” that is what is sexy for woman about a man. IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY FOR A MAN. Most men want to at least see some of the goods so to speak.

    Here is an example to illustrate. Few if any women get turned on/sexually excited by male strippers, by some guy shaking his dick in their face. So. Less is more. They’d rather see the guy in the suit or uniform and “wonder”. Most men in contrast will get very turned on by a hot woman shaking her tits and pussy in his face.

    Bingo.

  • Mike C

    How does it makes sense to say that precious few women know how to turn men on, when most are sluts and sluttiness is always sexy?

    Because he was referring to being sexy in a non-slutty way, to turn a man on without resorting to the slutty way of being sexy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2hy6fyheIA (thats sexy without any cleavage or legs or caked on makeup)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Because he was referring to being sexy in a non-slutty way, to turn a man on without resorting to the slutty way of being sexy.

      And how does he know that almost no women can do that?

  • Sassy6519

    A HUGE part of the problem with the mating game today is modern women’s desire to impose attractiveness standards on men, It doesn’t matter what you wish to be attractive to a man; it only matters what is encoded in his DNA.

    You would love to be valued for your intelligence (among other things) but the fact of the matter is that anything above average or slightly above average is a negative. Sorry, that’s just the way it is. I didn’t make the rules I’m just trying to make you understand that nature designed it this way and no amount of wishing is going to change it.

    It’s interesting that you say this because it reminded me of something. You said that it isn’t good for women to try to impose attractiveness standards onto men, but I feel like men are just as guilty of doing the same thing. Whenever the topic of female attraction triggers come up, you’d think every guy just lost his dog. They become upset and don’t understand why we women are attracted to what we are. What we like is seen as shallow, hypergamous, and juvenile. If women admit that they like men who are tall, good looking, have money, or any other slew of traits, the male uproar is deafening. The truth hurts, in a way, because it highlights just how much men and women are different.

    A female response to the idea that pixie cuts aren’t considered attractive by some men is akin to the male response to the idea that being short isn’t considered attractive by women. In a nutshell, no one wants to be knocked out of contention for attention from the opposite sex (or same sex, if your proclivities sway that way).

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    AM,

    Bingo 2.

  • http://thegatewayboyfriend.blogspot.com Dan_Brodribb

    Rum said
    “Women grossly over rate what men can tell about their internal mood-states. ”

    In fairness, I’ve often overrated what women can tell about MY internal moods. And I’ve also often overrated my ability to read a woman’s mind. We’re all black boxes to each other.

    I think there are different kinds of sexy. I find “Less is more” to be intriguing, provided I’m already interested in the first place.

    More is more turns me on, but it’s more of a physical response.

    There have always been two sides to sex to me–the tension and the release. And sexy is the knife edge between the two. While I’m sure the balance is different for everyone–I’m an anticipation man myself–a woman is able to walk that line, I find her irresistible.

  • Just1X

    Is it just me, or is it hard to reconcile:

    “It seems that in this conversation at least, male sexual attraction is very nuanced.” (Susan)

    with

    “Most men in contrast will get very turned on by a hot woman shaking her tits and pussy in his face” (Mike C)

    hmmm, gonna have to go with Mike on this one, though I would like to claim that other factors would be involved if I were looking for more than a quick shag. As I said; would like to claim.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just IX

      “It seems that in this conversation at least, male sexual attraction is very nuanced.” (Susan)

      Ah, that’s not my opinion. I am describing the rather long and involved discussions Yohami and Jesus Mahoney are having about the personality traits, character, and libido of Emma Watson and Olsen. It’s remarkable how much information they’ve provided in response to a single pic.

      So – we have men saying one is sexier than the other. Why? Tits? Ass? Nope, it’s about sexual energy, vulnerability, looks like she just had sex, hardness vs. coldness, damaged looking or not, etc. That strikes me as pretty nuanced.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Mike C,

    Ava Gardner in that video is plenty of sexy, and I dont even like her physically. Yet the smiles, the flirt, the play she puts into it, biting her libs, etc, plenty of sexy. She´s like a butterfly on the romance wind.

    Susan,

    There´s no incentive for women in this SMP to seduce men

    If so the only remaining option is to slut it up, which is unsatisfactory anyway. But of course there are incentives. Those who play their cards right still can profit from it. Thing is, do they know how?

  • Mike C

    AM at 337

    Spot on 110% to all of it.

  • Mike C

    Ava Gardner in that video is plenty of sexy, and I dont even like her physically. Yet the smiles, the flirt, the play she puts into it, biting her libs, etc, plenty of sexy. She´s like a butterfly on the romance wind.

    Absolutely. And that is Rollo’s main point. That most women have lost or don’t have that ability to do what Ava does in those 5 minutes which is seduce the man with her expressions, tone, etc. rather then the cheap sexiness of just pulling her top down and flashing her tits. The problem with Rollo’s post is you can’t separate the message from the messenger so for purposes here the distate of the messenger is making the message impossible to hear without twisting it into something else.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      The problem with Rollo’s post is you can’t separate the message from the messenger so for purposes here the distate of the messenger is making the message impossible to hear without twisting it into something else.

      That’s a cheap shot. I object to nearly all of Rollo’s posts, and this is the second one I’ve ever posted on.

      Mike, please address Rollo’s commentary on Emma Watson. Then, if you would, please comment on why women have the need in this SMP to seduce a man. As I see it, you have yet to respond to the message as included in this post. Not what you take to be Rollo’s intent, his words.

  • Mike C

    hmmm, gonna have to go with Mike on this one, though I would like to claim that other factors would be involved if I were looking for more than a quick shag. As I said; would like to claim.

    Right, and we are back to the 2 ladder theory of women a guy would just fuck versus relationship material. Sluttiness/slutty appearance is junk food sexiness whereas a more feminine sexiness is like a 7-course meal. They both satisfy hunger but the latter is much better.

  • Rum

    Susan
    Oh, come on. Everyone knows the answer to this 100%. True Enthusiasm is a massive part of mutual enjoyment. And, like “Sincerity” , if you can fake it you have got it made.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      Everyone knows the answer to this 100%. True Enthusiasm is a massive part of mutual enjoyment.

      Right. So is a slut with a count > 100 likely to have true enthusiasm in a drunken ONS? Do you feel confident that you can rock her world? If so, then why do men care about the number count at all?

  • Just1X

    @Susan,

    I don’t think that there is a single ‘smart’ gene, I think that there are multiple ones (dozens?) – the more you have the smarterer you might be. I vaguely recall a BBC documentary ‘Horizon’ touching on the subject years ago.

    It would be very interesting to know if there are a few that sit only on the Y side…maybe explaining the wider intelligence distribution for males. The Beeb is NOT the kind of organisation to raise such topics, however.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      Re IQ and genes:

      the new understanding of the chromosome revealed tantalizing clues to the role genes might play in shaping cognitive differences between the sexes. And while these differences seem to be largely to the female’s advantage, permutations during the genetic recombination of the X chromosome may confer to a few men a substantial intellectual edge.

      The brain seems particularly vulnerable to X-linked malfunction. Physician and human geneticist Horst Hameister and his group at the University of Ulm in Germany recently found that more than 21 percent of all brain disabilities map to X-linked mutations. “These genes must determine some component of intelligence if changes in them damage intelligence,” Hameister says.

      Gillian Turner, professor of medical genetics at the University of Newcastle in Australia, agrees that the X chromosome is a natural home for genes that mold the mind. “If you are thinking of getting a gene quickly distributed through a population, it makes sense to have it on the X,” she says. “And no human trait has evolved faster through history than intelligence.”

      The X chromosome provides an unusual system for transmitting genes between sexes across generations. Fathers pass down nearly their entire complement of X-linked genes to their daughters, and sons get their X-linked genes from their mothers.

      http://discovermagazine.com/2005/oct/sex

      I heard a story about this on NPR, which summarized by saying that a man should avoid marrying a bimbo if he wants smart sons, while a woman should feel free to marry her personal trainer. :)

  • Just1X

    @Mike C

    two ladder theory works for me as a reasonable analogy (and an amusing site)

  • Mike M.

    The difference between sexy and slutty isn’t in appearance, but in actions.

    A slut is sexually indiscriminate – and usually either drunk or drugged in the bargain. A lady – in the old-fashioned sense – is decidedly not. No matter how attractively dressed.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Sassy@340-

    Very true, but the difference is that men generally do not try to adopt feminine traits and then shame women into accepting them as being attractive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      men generally do not try to adopt feminine traits and then shame women into accepting them as being attractive.

      No one is telling men who they should find attractive, least of all me. Nor should men tell women how to wear their hair or clothing to please men, when that may not be important to the woman at all.

  • Rum

    Susan
    You cannot say things like “the gene for smart is on the X sex chromosome” and then expect to avoid the ramifications of the strong inheritedness of intelligence. Well, you can on your own blog and I think that is entirely fair, btw. But in general the train of HBD thinking is hard to stop once its rolling.
    Besides, I know a little about genetics and I rarely hear that something as fundamental as “smarts” is located on one chromosome, especially a sex chromosome. About half on your genes come from dad whether you are male or female. Half is a lot.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      Sorry, missed your comment re genes. I linked to the article at Discover Magazine re the role of the x and y chromosomes. It also explains why there are more super smart men, btw.

  • Desiderius

    Sassy,

    Great point. I think a good lover takes into account both the low and the high – hence the 1 of 3 rule combined with a winning personality advice from Susan. Likewise, learning game but also bringing the green light stuff for men. Takes both. Probably better to lead with the instinctive (the sexy) then let the (prospective) partner slowly discover the rest on their own.

    There is a huge problem with high-achieving women (and come to think of it, some beta men) refusing to take the instinctive part into account at all, so they end up never getting an opportunity to show the rest. I think that problem is what Rollo is getting at in his own ham-fisted way, but Susan got lost in her own (entirely distinct, however valid, and it is quite valid) public-private point (public sexiness being in some sense slutty in itself – see Lohan/Spears/Cyrus ad nauseum) which had nothing to do with Rollo’s.

    I don’t think it was something Susan consciously/intentionally did, although distancing herself from the Ro’s is certainly good business.

    “As I said in the post, she’s going for dignity and class, male gaze be damned.”

    Seems to me like she cares more about the latter than the former, but I may just be speaking from experience with women of that ilk (see the Finkeldate, Dawkins’ offended atheist on the elevator, etc…).

    Third-wave feminism: not taking any shit, and determined to find the maximum amount of shit not to take, whether its there or not.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan got lost in her own (entirely distinct, however valid, and it is quite valid) public-private point (public sexiness being in some sense slutty in itself – see Lohan/Spears/Cyrus ad nauseum) which had nothing to do with Rollo’s.

      That’s only because Rollo misrepresented Watson’s comments, which were specifically addressing her public sexual persona.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    http://usgirlonline.com/wp-content/uploads/auto_save_image/2010/12/053653iXT.jpg

    Is she sexy?

    A lot more sexy there than in the aloof cover.

    However. The cold / controlling / predatory look is still asexual. Or at least asexual in an hetero way. I think she´s looking inward. There´s something defensive about it. The sexyness she´s pulling is not the feminine kind. A gay guy will know better.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    She´s stunning though. For a boy.

  • Just1X

    with long hair and a smile she’d get a higher rating.

    If that’s the best smile she can raise when trying to look sexy, then she looks a little high maintainence to me…could be emo-flashbacks to my married days though. Life is too short to spend time with miserable birds

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Good Luck Chuck,

    but the difference is that men generally do not try to adopt feminine traits and then shame women into accepting them as being attractive.

    Nice / beta guys do. Facepalm to them.

  • Desiderius

    “Is she sexy?”

    Good God.

    I stand corrected.

    And, yes, that is a double entendre.

    The smart thing is more than a fetish; it is the price of admission.

  • Just1X

    “She´s stunning though. For a boy.”

    CLASSIC

  • Just1X

    “That strikes me as pretty nuanced”

    and I thank you for that, it is appreciated…

  • Sassy6519

    @ Yohami

    Nice / beta guys do. Facepalm to them.

    That’s what I was getting at Yohami. Hardened and cold women (physically or mentally) are as attractive to men as beta/supplicating men (physically or mentally) are to women. Both groups wish it weren’t so, however.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    I have reason to question whether that is true of all men. I have known several men who almost have a fetish for smart women. Perhaps because the IQ gene is carried on the X chromosome. In any case, my husband and I, and also the couples we socialize with, enjoy discussions on a wide range of topics, none of which would be possible with a person of average intelligence (IQ = 100). My husband is probably smarter than me, by a bit, and he’s very, very smart. Perhaps it’s the smartest men who want to mate with the smartest women, IDK.

    Rich woman- richer man. Smart woman- smarter man.

    I am not saying that some men might not find above average intelligence to be attractive, but as a general rule it isn’t something that most guys look for, and unless the guy is a brainiac himself it is likely to be a negative.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I am not saying that some men might not find above average intelligence to be attractive, but as a general rule it isn’t something that most guys look for, and unless the guy is a brainiac himself it is likely to be a negative.

      Sounds like you’ve been reading your Roissy. Anything over 120 is just a pain in the ass, as I recall.

  • Just1X

    I refuse to get worked up over her till she start’s smiling and grows her hair…so there

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan
    “I have reason to question whether that is true of all men. I have known several men who almost have a fetish for smart women. Perhaps because the IQ gene is carried on the X chromosome. In any case, my husband and I, and also the couples we socialize with, enjoy discussions on a wide range of topics, none of which would be possible with a person of average intelligence (IQ = 100). My husband is probably smarter than me, by a bit, and he’s very, very smart. Perhaps it’s the smartest men who want to mate with the smartest women, IDK.”

    I think it’s really important to note the difference between “smart” and “intellectual.”

    I consider myself to be smart (went to 2 of the top 5 universities in my field of study, score in the top 5%-10% of standardized tests, etc.), but my tastes aren’t very intellectual or high brow. I don’t think I would have been very successful or happy at an Ivy League type school.

    I find that I’m usually attracted to girls that share those qualities. A lot of intellectualism is somewhat of a turnoff for me simply because I can’t relate to it very well. That’s not to say that I don’t have a great deal of respect for their intelligence, but the compatibility just isn’t there.

  • Rum

    Being smart always adds to a woman attractiveness. The more the better. The thing is, I define “smart” as being able to accurately assess reality and to cope effectively. This is not the same as SAT scores because it places a huge premium on having good judgment.
    A really smart woman will grasp how dumb it is to be overweight, for example. She will “get” how make-up should work. She might even, in the right moments, know how to play dumb.

  • Just1X

    I didn’t prioritise intelligence in my choice of wife, but the lack thereof was a factor in not wanting kids with her. I’m not stupid enough to get married again, but if I were, intelligence would be on my list (under sexy, happy, feminine and appropriately hairy).

    So, you see? One can learn from one’s mistakes…but, my biggest lesson is not to get married (but we covered that at christmas, I believe)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      I didn’t prioritise intelligence in my choice of wife, but the lack thereof was a factor in not wanting kids with her.

      Wow, that is really an extraordinary statement. I hope you find a brainy, sexy woman to cohabitate with :)

  • Sassy6519

    Rich woman- richer man. Smart woman- smarter man.

    I am not saying that some men might not find above average intelligence to be attractive, but as a general rule it isn’t something that most guys look for, and unless the guy is a brainiac himself it is likely to be a negative.

    I’ll agree with this. The men who have enjoyed my intellect the most have been very smart men themselves. The few guys who were obviously not very intelligent wanted me to sit down, shut up, and look pretty.

    The smarter the man, the smarter he will want his mate to be, and vice versa. How could 2 people carry on interesting conversations otherwise?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The smarter the man, the smarter he will want his mate to be, and vice versa. How could 2 people carry on interesting conversations otherwise?

      Yeah, I think it’s a compatibility issue. Of course, some men don’t select women on that basis either. “Conversation” is not the goal.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    And how does he know that almost no women can do that?

    Because women in general conflate sexy with slutty. You said there are no incentives to seduce = you concede the point.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Because women in general conflate sexy with slutty. You said there are no incentives to seduce = you concede the point.

      I disagree that most women conflate sexy with slutty. Those ducklipped girls in the pick are gross, IMO. The idea of a woman shaking her tits and pussy in someone’s face makes me want to retch. That as the definition of sexy is not something any non-stripping woman can understand, for obvious reasons.

      The lack of incentives to seduce is attributable to the fact that the most seduceable men are not looking for seduction. They’re seeking P&D, which is the antithesis of seduction.

  • AM

    @SW

    “I find the whole concept of being ‘sexy’ embarrassing and confusing”
    “What’s sexy about saying, ‘I’m here with my boobs and a short skirt, have a look at everything I’ve got’”

    I’m judging her based on what I’ve read here. There may be (and probably are) myriad other facets of her personality. Perhaps she is totally different with a SO than when interviewed by the media. Who knows. I certainly don’t. All I’m doing is judging the version of her that is presented here. Saying I am “extrapolating” or taking things out of context is a completely irrelevant argument. We aren’t trying to understand the true Emma Watson real life person here, just the version presented by the quotes and information in the post. Straw man dismissal.

    And I am a bit surprised you chose to use the word “threatened” there. You know very well the implications that word has in these topics, and how misused and shaming it is. I can only assume you quite deliberately meant to use it this way.

    I assure you, however, I am not threatened in the slightest. I am sad that women so terribly misunderstand men, and sadder still that this misunderstanding so often seems to be willful and deliberate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @AM

      All I’m doing is judging the version of her that is presented here. Saying I am “extrapolating” or taking things out of context is a completely irrelevant argument.

      But the conversation was about photo shoots. Not dating. Not relationships. She feels embarrassed and confused when Vogue wants her to lie naked with a cobra wrapped around her private parts. I linked to the full interview, but I also pulled from it in discussing her encountering a photographer on the floor with his lens up her skirt at her 18th birthday party. This is very straightforward. Rollo plucked the quote out of context to imply that she hates feeling sexy. It’s ridiculous.

      I am sad that women so terribly misunderstand men, and sadder still that this misunderstanding so often seems to be willful and deliberate.

      See, that’s where the threat is, right there. Willful and deliberate. Which is precisely what I accuse Rollo of doing – reworking a teenager’s comments about being a media star to deliberately misunderstand his “female-centric imperative.”

      I feel extremely sad, frustrated and threatened that men feel they can categorically state who is fuckable, or that Emma Watson’s priority should be catering to male sexuality. When the baseline male demand is for sexy and seductive, only sluts will get male attention. Perhaps that’s why some men claim that all women are sluts. The rest are invisible to them.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        I gotta go. Perhaps it’s best that I leave this contentious thread right now, anyway. Back later.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Yohami and Sassy,

    The difference is that these low value men aren’t adopting feminine qualities and expecting women to go along with the program. Men aren’t saying “I want to be a kitchen bitch” they simply lack characteristics required to attract a mate. In the women’s case they are ACTIVELY sabotaging their mating value by trying to become more like men.

  • Just1X

    Thanks for the info, interesting. I wouldn’t say I married a bimbo, but there was quite a difference in intelligence, common sense, stability…best leave it there I think.

    The horizon programme was older than yours
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/590919.stm
    Thursday, 6 January, 2000, 10:58 GMT
    Designing babies: The future of genetics

  • Good Luck Chuck

    In defense of intelligence in a woman I will say that low intelligence is almost as much of a turnoff as high intelligence.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    I disagree that most women conflate sexy with slutty.

    So most women in your view conflate sexy with seduction?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So most women in your view conflate sexy with seduction?

      I don’t see the need for conflation. I think women focus more on feeling sexy, as the source for our being sexy in our actions. (Not as the source for our ability to attract the male gaze.) Seduction is defined as “the act of winning the love or sexual favor of someone.” In general, women focus on the former, men the latter. Women often believe, somewhat erroneously, that winning the sexual favor of someone will produce love as well. This is why women hook up in dead end situations – they’re being unrealistic.

      Winning the sexual favor of a male hardly seems to require much in the way of seduction. Which is why so many middling attractive women can get one night with a hot guy. Beauty is only a lightswitch away.

      Women seduce men for love over time, through the behaviors we’ve talked about here so many times – showing respect and appreciation, doing nice things for him, being feminine – adding to his life in good ways, essentially. That takes time, and it’s very difficult for women to do in a culture without dating.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Good Luck Chuck

    I can guarantee you that most women aren’t actively trying to sabotage their mating value or trying to become more like men. It’s funny how a woman cutting her hair is seen as trying to be like a man.

    When I sported a pixie cut, my motivation wasn’t to avoid the male gaze. I simply thought the style was easier to maintain and was cute on me. Why is the action of cutting hair seen as having an ulterior motive other than fashion?

    Surprisingly, men didn’t avoid me when I had short hair. So much for trying to become like a guy. I obviously failed.

  • AM

    @SW

    “No one is telling men who they should find attractive, least of all me. Nor should men tell women how to wear their hair or clothing to please men, when that may not be important to the woman at all.”

    We’re not telling women to do anything. We are simply saying certain ways of dressing and acting are sexier than others. If you choose not to do these things, fine, but don’t turn around and say these unsexy things are, in fact, sexy, men’s feelings be damned.

    This is why Rollo is saying many women don’t know how to turn men on. Perhaps I would amend his statement to also include “many women do know how to turn men on, but instead choose to do other things and expect that men be turned on by those things instead”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @AM

      This is why Rollo is saying many women don’t know how to turn men on. Perhaps I would amend his statement to also include “many women do know how to turn men on, but instead choose to do other things and expect that men be turned on by those things instead”.

      No, Rollo is overtly taking issue with Emma Watson not doing more to turn men on. He says so explicitly. In truth, she isn’t asking anything from men. She’s showing a well-turned ankle, and we’ll see how many takers she gets. She has every right to display as little or as much sexuality as she chooses, and to reassess her strategy as needed, and as she ages. (She was 18, folks!)

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Or you’re threatened and taking things the wrong way. It’s fascinating how worked up the men have gotten over this.”

    Whatever.

    Let us know when you get off your high horse.

    We have to deal with legions of women who don’t have the luxury of Watson’s fame/natural beauty who nonetheless are more concerned with thwarting the male gaze than they are with attracting the love of their lives. Until they wake up and find themselves on the Bolick track, that is.

    Why does a woman need to seduce a man in this SMP? I know several that are desperately frustrated by their utter inability to do so. The flip-side of the involuntarily celibate betas. Many would likely make great wives and mothers too. In fact, the frustration is especially acute there.

  • Chris_in_CA

    Wow, this discussion has gone all sorts of haywire.

    Couple quick points, as I’m heading back out:

    “Please comment on why women have the need in this SMP to seduce a man.”

    I’m not Mike, but…maybe because the men they’d want to seduce (alphas) have plenty of options, and they’ll need to differentiate themselves?

    Or if they do honestly go for betas, being sexy & seductive would give him a green light and charge his enthusiasm to pursue?

    Plus, as MGTOW numbers grow (I received very encouraging news on this front some weeks ago), women will find themselves more & more in need of seductive skills when the law makes things even more difficult for relationships.

    “Rich woman- richer man. Smart woman- smarter man.”

    Hypergamy’s cold truth right there. I read Stephen Hawking for fun. Wouldn’t even consider a relationship with a woman who couldn’t at least keep up. Only one woman has ever done that in person (and she was married at the time – later dumped her husband for a financier 20 years her senior).

    As for the whole “avoiding the dreaded male gaze” stuff, that’s her prerogative. I said before, it’ll bite her later.

    I am very glad I don’t have to deal with ALL of this nonsense.

  • Just1X

    “Gillian Turner, professor of medical genetics at the University of Newcastle in Australia, agrees that the X chromosome is a natural home for genes that mold the mind. “If you are thinking of getting a gene quickly distributed through a population, it makes sense to have it on the X,” she says. “And no human trait has evolved faster through history than intelligence.”

    The X chromosome provides an unusual system for transmitting genes between sexes across generations. Fathers pass down nearly their entire complement of X-linked genes to their daughters, and sons get their X-linked genes from their mothers.”

    I wonder if they have the whole story, or are telling the whole story? I thought that the Y chromosome was the fast evolving one (most different to chimps etc)…not an expert though

  • Lindsay

    @Sue:
    Exactly. At 40 I was hardly going for ingenue roles. My coach suggested I cultivate a “look” and I really did start getting more parts after that – everything from the grumpy 30-something spinster to the soccer mom running errands.

    Being attractive to men other than my husband was irrelevant. In fact, I think one of the reason that women cut their hair as they age is to convey the message that they are not available. If a woman is happy in her relationship, she dreads being approached by other men. I’m not talking about mild flirting, but the kind of feeling when you know someone else’s husband (or your personal trainer :-/ ) is very attracted.

    LOL, I’m not getting that look from you at all. I see “90s chick.” You could be younger as well. Everyone had that haircut in the 90s. Well, except for guys – they had hair down to their butts.

    But yes to the haircut. My mom got a short haircut when her divorce went through, to show she was angry at men. Now that she’s 60, she grew it out, and looks a lot younger than she does, so the men are paying attention again – and she’s switched to long-distance relationships as a defense mechanism.

    I do not envy her or wish to emulate this approach, let’s just say.

    @Jesus:

    So wait, you mean you steer clear of them now that you’re married. Respectable, but not exactly admirable. Most women steer clear of men of all sorts once they’re married.

    Naw, sorry, before I met hubs. My grammar and formatting are pretty shit throughout this entry. Sorry for the muddle. This will be my only post today most likely.

    One of the great things about him is the catholicity of his tastes and the breadth of his talents. He’s a decent songwriter, but he’s an amazing vocalist. He also happens to be a very warm, friendly, and down-to-earth individual with a good sense of humor.

    Seriously. I got back into pop music because of him. Even disco. He’s been interacting with fans more on his FB page, too, which is great to see (even if some of the fans are so crazy to be on the same Internet as Patton that they have meltdowns!). It sounds like you met him in-person, and if so, lucky you!

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Sassy- I’m not saying that women are making a conscious choice to become unattractive to men when they choose to adopt masculine behaviors. Becoming less attractive is simply a consequence of the action.

  • Sassy6519

    So cutting one’s hair, as a woman, is a masculine behavior?

    It’s funny how much power women have in dead cells.

  • Desiderius

    “Nor should men tell women how to wear their hair or clothing to please men, when that may not be important to the woman at all.”

    Which is why you never tell men to stop being supplicating doormats, when attracting women may not be important to those men at all. The name of your blog is Hooking Up Smart, for goodness sake. Don’t blame us for assuming that context.

    “That’s only because Rollo misrepresented Watson’s comments, which were specifically addressing her public sexual persona.”

    Maybe. It wasn’t clear to me that she was distinguishing between her public sexual persona and her sexual persona in general. Heh – all roads lead to Paglia.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Sounds like you’ve been reading your Roissy. Anything over 120 is just a pain in the ass, as I recall.

    I used to follow Roissy but the whole alpha/beta schtick got to be too much for me. That doesn’t change the fact that he is spot on about female IQ and how it affects attraction, however.

    Actually I found you through Rollo. Had lunch with him awhile back and he mentioned your blog. Saw your link on his Sexy post and here I am.

  • Just1X

    “I hope you find a brainy, sexy woman to cohabitate with”
    it’s a nice thought (mostly), but I’m not holding my breath. Thanks for the sentiment though.

    The kid decision only occurred to me around the time of break up (just as she decided what a great idea it would be). If I’d worked it out earlier I wouldn’t have got married to her, though there were good parts to the relationship. If she’d succeeded the last ten years would have been decidely worse, so could have been worse…

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Sassy- the act of cutting one’s hair is not masculine. It is the message that the short hair conveys that is masculine.

  • Sassy6519

    Which is why you never tell men to stop being supplicating doormats, when attracting women may not be important to those men at all.

    Interesting. Is this even possible?

    If the desire/need for sex is as great as it has been described by the men on here, one would have to assume that attracting women would always be a priority with men, unless they preferred sex toys or sex workers.

    On the other hand, I have known a few women who couldn’t give two shits if they attracted men or not. Their focus was on something else. They felt that they could switch their desire for male company on and off whenever they felt like it. In a way, it’s true. Until a woman reaches the age range where her looks take a nose dive, she lives in a land of plenty (for the most part). The opportunity to find male attention (albeit short term attention) is readily available, for most women. Putting men on the back burner of their minds happens frequently because getting male attention after the hiatus is almost guaranteed.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Good Luck Chuck

    Sassy- the act of cutting one’s hair is not masculine. It is the message that the short hair conveys that is masculine.

    Now we are getting somewhere. What message does short hair send?

    I don’t think women know that it sends a message at all. That’s the issue. If you could give us an idea, perhaps women would be able to understand the male psyche a bit better.

  • Chris_in_CA

    Huh. Sassy, you’re forgetting about MGTOW. I haven’t been doing my job too well, it seems.

  • Just1X

    @Sassy
    the power of dead cells?

    One of these was on my university room wall for three years, the other not. Bet you can guess which was which.

    http://www.amazon.com/Whole-Story-Kate-Bush/dp/B000002UA7

    http://www.amazon.com/Sensual-World-Kate-Bush/dp/B0012GMUQI/ref=pd_sim_m_3

    I’m glad she wasn’t smiling as well, would have been bad for my blood pressure.

    p.s.
    Susan, if you know anybody looking like this…please drop me a line

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Aha. So in order to be sexy, what do girls, most women, etc, do?

    A) taint him sexually, show skin, let him you you might be DTF.
    B) be attentive, caring, feminine, make him feel good, add value to his life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In this SMP, A. There is no opportunity to deploy Plan B.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    *A) taunt him sexually, show skin, let him know you might be DTF.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Just1X

    Hair cells are dead. The only living part of a strand of hair is the follicle, and that’s the part of the hair beneath the skin.

    Women have so much sway over men with a mountain of dead cells. It’s kind of funny to me.

  • Just1X

    Well, I must admit that 25 years ago the Kate Bush package was my-thang. There was more to it than her barnet*, in particular those eyes….(sigh).

    Typing is getting hard as my eyes are steaming up, so time for bed, I think…good night

    (rhyming slang ‘Barnet Fair’ – hair. Thought I’d add to the educational aspects of this post. The genetic stuff was interesting)

  • Just1X

    ‘night Susan, have a nice evening

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    In this SMP, A.

    Then women do conflate sexy and slutty as the same thing. And not enough women know, or do, plan B.

    There is no opportunity to deploy Plan B.

    That´s putting the blame somewhere else.

    I agree though, that´s how the SMP is. Its ruled by a few alphas and a whole big bunch of women. And this is how women handle it. Show more skin, be DTF, etc. Not enough of femininity or seduction. Who´s to blame aint the issue, but if we were forced to assign blame, it has to fall on the people doing the actions, so, women.

    Someone like Watson downplays the slut and ends up with nothing, because she doesnt have the B on her either. Unlike Gardner.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I’m chiming in way late here, so maybe someone already said this, but I’ll say it anyway.

    I read the original Rollo post, and I thought it was interesting. Essentially, he’s saying that the entire mass media (including Emma, who’s just a very small part) has chosen to define sexy in a specific way. In order to be sexy, you must be slutty (it reminds me of my favorite Jesus Mahoney characterization of the media “rubbing the public’s junk”). Emma is essentially saying “if that’s what it takes for me to be sexy, I don’t want to be sexy. I don’t want to put my body on display.” But she’s still thinking of “sexy” as purely physical when she says “less is more” (and of course she thinks of it that way, she’s 18 and the media has sold her on a very specific definition of “sexy”).

    Meanwhile, Rollo is rejecting the entire thing. According to him, the media doesn’t know what’s sexy, and neither does Emma. He’s not launching a personal attack against Emma, he’s challenging the notion that sexy is all about physical appearance (albeit in rather harsh terms, but Rollo doesn’t apologize for his viewpoints). He’s using Emma as a proxy to represent the mass media image of “sexy,” and he’s saying that the media has it wrong. He proposes that there are many ways to be sexy without being slutty, that just because you don’t want to be slutty doesn’t mean you have to reject what is sexy. I think it’s a valid point.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Meanwhile, Rollo is rejecting the entire thing. According to him, the media doesn’t know what’s sexy, and neither does Emma.

      Don’t forget all but a few of the precious few of women. None of us knows what’s sexy either. As for not launching a personal attack, I thought the language was very personal to her and mocked her appearance as confirmation of her cluelessness.

      There’s no question that the media and the culture promote a slutty, Girls Gone Wild sexuality. We’ve discussed it here often. In contrast, Emma is actually talking about the beauty of subtlety, the power of the imagination. She rejects the media definition, she doesn’t represent it. Yes, she’s focusing on the physical, because she is talking about the way that the media wants her to pose for photographs. She is not looking to sell sizzle. Many other serious actresses have made the same choice. In short, she’s not the poster girl for what’s wrong with the media definition of sexuality.

      Now what I can’t figure out is why you can read that piece and interpret it 100% correctly, and take away the exact, correct main point being made while others cannot.

      Because Olive plays for Team Man? :P

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Olive,

    Cheers.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Olive, what´s your briggs/myers fenotype again?

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    ENFJ. Same as Susan’s. And yours I think.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Olive, yeah, same as I.

    You and Hope should start a family and have 1,000 daughters.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Sassy- the message is MASCULINE.

    No if’s and’s or but’s about it- 99% of the time a woman looks more sexually attractive with longer hair. If women want to make themselves less attractive to men, consciously or not, that is their prerogative. The issue is women trying to move the goalpost. Our blog host’s protestations to the contrary, the underlying message of this post is that women should be able to do whatever they damn well please and men should learn to appreciate it.

  • Pingback: Written in the Stars 2 « Blogging Bellita

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Sassy, hair is not just dead cells. The outer layer of skin is technically dead cells, too, but it’s another health and therefore fertility cue.

    Most fertility cues are related to health. Sick, malnourished people would not grow longer, shiny hair. Their hair often fall out in patches and cannot grow long. Likewise their nails often become brittle and break.

    A healthy person also has clear, elastic skin due to good amount of collagen, and a layer of subcutaneous fat that makes it soft. He or she is not too fat or too skinny.

    Now a man can look at a woman with very short hair and think logically: “she only cut her hair; it can grow back.” But viscerally their initial reaction is “what is wrong with this adult-aged woman that she cannot grow long hair?”

    So that is the male gut instinct reaction to pixie short hair on even a beautiful woman. Her other fertility cues are there, but hair is a big mental shortcut for men, all of whom are visual. That’s why men like long hair.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Good Luck Chuck

    Our blog host’s protestations to the contrary, the underlying message of this post is that women should be able to do whatever they damn well please and men should learn to appreciate it.

    I don’t feel this way. I think people should be authentic to themselves and hope that they find someone who likes them that way. I say this because attraction triggers span the gamut for both sexes. I’ve known some men who love long hair on a woman, and I’ve also known men who swoon over short hairstyles. It’s the same way the amount of dominance needed to attract a woman varies from person to person.

    With that being said, I think it’s important for people to be aware of the odds of success with each strategy. There may be differences in the percentages of men and women who like a particular trait. More men may prefer longer hair to short hair. More women may prefer more dominant men to less dominant men. If you pick a strategy and stick to it, I think it’s important to get a good idea of the preferential breakdown for a trait. It’s a good way to determine whether one’s odds of success increase or decrease depending on one’s product presentation.

    In summary, I think women should be able to do what they please, but I also think they need to be aware of the fact that their presentations may limit their odds of success in attracting a mate.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hope

    I knew all of that already. I just commented on how ironic it is for something that is dead to have so much influence. I’m waxing poetic here.

  • Mike C

    Olive @ 421…

    YES! Perfectly said:

    I’m particularly impressed with this part:

    He’s not launching a personal attack against Emma, he’s challenging the notion that sexy is all about physical appearance (albeit in rather harsh terms, but Rollo doesn’t apologize for his viewpoints). He’s using Emma as a proxy to represent the mass media image of “sexy,” and he’s saying that the media has it wrong. He proposes that there are many ways to be sexy without being slutty, that just because you don’t want to be slutty doesn’t mean you have to reject what is sexy.

    Now what I can’t figure out is why you can read that piece and interpret it 100% correctly, and take away the exact, correct main point being made while others cannot. The piece isn’t about picking on Emma, as you correctly note she is simply a proxy to make a larger point.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Sassy, you want to talk about irony? :P There is actually a cultural reason for the pixie cut being seen as an “ironically” pretty.

    In some more traditional places, hair on young, pre- or barely pubescent girls is kept very short, partially to keep away “the male gaze” until such a time that she is deemed suitable for marriage. When I was growing up, from age 3 until 8 or 9, I had very short boyish hair in the summertime. The older women never cut their hair that short. It was also less maintenance for them because I still needed adults to take care of my hair.

    When young girls begin to hit puberty around their teens, they also begin to show other fertility cues. In such cases, the very short boyish haircut is actually a “give-away” in combination with the other cues that she has not yet been married off and is still very young and innocent. It is not deliberately a “sexy” signal, but a signal of “cuteness” and “girlishness.” Hence the name “pixie,” which in folklore are often depicted as having childish features.

    Children are not supposed to be sexy. They are supposed to be youthful, innocent, pure, and ignorant about matters of sex. That is the ironic appeal of the pixie haircut, which we seem to have forgotten. Emma Watson didn’t want to be seen as a sex object anymore, which is why she picked the pixie cut. Let’s not call this look “sexy.”

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Mike C,

    Now what I can’t figure out is why you can read that piece and interpret it 100% correctly, and take away the exact, correct main point being made while others cannot.

    I can. You can too if you reproduce the steps. First pick something you strongly disagree with or offends you, and while that burns inside shake your head and say lalalala to anything else. That will do the trick.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami

      First pick something you strongly disagree with or offends you, and while that burns inside shake your head and say lalalala to anything else.

      Funny, during this thread I was picturing you in a total catatonic state over the photographs, not hearing a word.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Mike C,
    You should read Bellita’s post. She raises an entirely different point about preserving innocence by “deflecting the male gaze.” If I’m able to interpret Rollo’s article, Bellita’s able to bring new ideas to the discussion. She’s thinking 10 steps ahead of me.

    If the media is saying “give up your virginity” and Rollo is saying “give it up in the right way, Bellita is saying “don’t just give it up.” And poor Emma is confused. I think I felt similarly at 18 or 19.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      If the media is saying “give up your virginity” and Rollo is saying “give it up in the right way

      Is giving it up by date three to avoid getting dumped what you mean by the right way?

      Bellita’s post is great – the idea was first floated in this thread by Vox, and she did a nice riff on it.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    How was Olive able to go through it and pick the real meaning? options

    A) she hates women, feed her with all the female criticism there is, she´ll want more. it makes her feel superior as in “Im not like them”

    B) she did get offended, but she´s a neurotic masochist and wanted more. At the end she felt disappointed the main point wasnt that strong.

    C) she has aspergers so the emotional content didnt get to her. She only looked at the logic articulations and the rest was invisible.

    D) she´s in control of her emotions and is able to separate judgement from self defense mechanisms and reason. In this case she was able to look past Rollo´s feelings and got to the main issue.

    E) she´s just smart.

    F) she´s drunk.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Options A and E most closely describe Olive’s MO these days, without the feelings of superiority. Olive would never behave that way. She’s totally honest, but yeah, she doesn’t have much use for women at the moment.

  • Mike C

    Now we are getting somewhere. What message does short hair send?

    I don’t think women know that it sends a message at all. That’s the issue. If you could give us an idea, perhaps women would be able to understand the male psyche a bit better.

    Well…this very comment thread is proof of one of the messages it *potentially* sends which is sort of a “I don’t give a fuck what you men find sexually appealing”. That’s all well and good. I mean whatever floats someone’s boat, but I know I wouldn’t want to be with a woman who puts being sexually appealing to me very low on her priority list, and essentially says “Fuck you, I feel sexy the way I am, and you better just like it”. That type can hit the road as far as I am concerned but again some guys would accept that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “I don’t give a fuck what you men find sexually appealing”.

      As Hope pointed out, women make decisions about their appearance for many reasons, not all of which aim to maximize sexual appeal. I don’t understand why a man would look at a stranger’s short hair and take offense. It’s her choice, her decision. Presumably, only men who like her as she is would pursue her. If she makes herself unattractive to men, either deliberately or not, isn’t that her choice? Why should anyone be obligated to consider how the public will feel about their appearance? She’ll suffer the consequence, why should men care? If one is already in a relationship, of course that’s different, but that’s not the case here.

      In any case, I think Vox Day was exactly correct. Her strategy was to convey serious acting and intellectual gifts, not sex appeal. I’m sure she gets the attention of many suitors regardless.

  • Mike C

    Mike C,
    You should read Bellita’s post. She raises an entirely different point about preserving innocence by “deflecting the male gaze.” If I’m able to interpret Rollo’s article, Bellita’s able to bring new ideas to the discussion. She’s thinking 10 steps ahead of me.

    Link?

    D) she´s in control of her emotions and is able to separate judgement from self defense mechanisms and reason. In this case she was able to look past Rollo´s feelings and got to the main issue.

    E) she´s just smart.

    I vote for these 2

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Funny, during this thread I was picturing you in a total catatonic state over the photographs, not hearing a word.

    If I start “hearing” the words that would be a problem.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Susan,

    In short, she’s not the poster girl for what’s wrong with the media definition of sexuality.

    I do agree with you here. I think this particular quote pasted on this particular image served Rollo’s point well at the moment (and my guess? It was being circulated on facebook by women who are tired of trying to be physically sexy). But Rollo’s saying “hey ladies! you’re missing the point! sexy isn’t just physical, it’s an attitude and a demeanor that must be learned, so stop being pissed about the media’s definition of sexy and go learn how to be sexy, for real!”

    I noticed you said upthread that Rollo thinks Emma should serve herself up on a Girls Gone Wild platter. I don’t think that’s what he was trying to argue (and perhaps he would’ve done better to not mention the hairstyle. Bellita and Hope have fascinating thoughts on that particular topic, though).

    Yohami,
    It’s a combination of A and F.

  • Wudang

    I am not saying that some men might not find above average intelligence to be attractive, but as a general rule it isn’t something that most guys look for, and unless the guy is a brainiac himself it is likely to be a negative.

    Sounds like you’ve been reading your Roissy. Anything over 120 is just a pain in the ass, as I recall.

    Hmmm, I am unable to fall in love with women below a certain range of intelligence. My guess is this range is somewhere arround an IQ of 130. Women that don`t meet my intelligence requirement I can get superficial crushes for but not really fall in love with.

    Susan, entirely unrelated, it just ocured to me that the male contraceptive pill might change a lot of things in the direction you/we want. Because cads will then be able to make sure they don`t have children and because they often don`t want children betas who do want children will be much, much, much, much, much more in demand. It will bring back a lot of the power betas had in the old days. Once it sinks in after one generation of seeing how this plays out the next generation of women will know they will have to make them self a catch for a beta willing to be a father if they are to have hopes of snagging one. By then it will be evident what betas think of slutty women and a bunch of other issues and THEY will hold ultimate power in the SMP.

    Over time the dark triad genes will diminish in the gene pool because even though they will still get laid the most I am certain a higher proportion of them do not want to have children.

    In addition to this cuckolding will be near impossible. The guy women want to impregnate them can`t be fooled into it any longer and the guy she wants to be the dad won`t by her getting pregnant when he is taking his own pill.

    I think we might all be surprised to see how few men actually will make the concious choice to have children. I just read abut a survey that found 42% of women said they were willing to lie about contraception in order to get pregnant with an unwilling man. When that willingness is so high pregnancy rates can have been held artifically much higher than they would had men had a pill.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Olive,

    It’s a combination of A and F.

    That puts you in the B (neurotic) classification. Im rooting for smart though.

  • Wudang

    Maybe some very attractive betas will even be in such a strong demand that they end up with several wives:)

    The whole eggs are precious sperm is cheap thing gets turned totally arround. Eggs will be fairly available while father sperm not so much.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Mike C,
    It’s trackbacked.

    Susan,

    Is giving it up by date three to avoid getting dumped what you mean by the right way?

    LOL. I don’t read Rollo regularly, so no that’s not what I meant.

    I just mean that when a woman gets to the point of actually giving up her virginity (and Rollo has not offered any insights on timelines in this particular post), she should do it in a way that’s seductive, not necessarily in a way that says “hey look at my huge boobies!!”

  • Lindsay

    It turns out I have a few more things to say. Hopefully I am writing clearly this afternoon.

    @GL Chuck:

    I used to follow Roissy but the whole alpha/beta schtick got to be too much for me. That doesn’t change the fact that he is spot on about female IQ and how it affects attraction, however.

    Rather than taking Roissy’s maxim as an insult, I take it as a compliment. I’m too smart and much too old for Roissy – and I’m built like an upside-down triangle rather than the perfect hourglass he wants – so he’d ignore me at a bar, and I think that’s awesome! I’ve seen his photos courtesy of the Laidy Raine debacle, and I don’t find him attractive whatsoever…kinda old and strange-looking, IMO, with an air of smarminess about him. But if he is indeed banging teenage girls left and right, more power to him.

    Guys with smarts at the upper end of the bell curve wouldn’t agree with Roissy’s maxims, however. Some of them tend toward the Asperger’s end of the spectrum, and I find them to be good company. We “get” each other, and we can sit there and babble on about computer/software/programming/science crap for hours and dig it. But other folks don’t want to listen to this and that’s cool too. Intelligence is a gift and a curse. The higher you test, the likelier it is you run into trouble grasping the social sphere. Women tend to “fake it” by studying other people, TV, and movies, and using those as aids to model social interaction. Men don’t do this as much, which is why socially awkward or even Asperger’s traits are more pronounced in men.

    This discussion also relates to my point further back in the comments, which was that intelligence and academic giftedness have been portrayed as negative traits for men in the second half of Generation X. For that slice of the population, our youth popular culture depicted intelligent men as creeps and social rejects – and accordingly, the early 90s were when we started to see women surpassing men at school, but was also a time when academic institutions still used academic tracking and individual competition instead of standardized testing and group work. I bet Millennial/Gen-Z culture also portrays smart men as losers, and this, combined with the asinine NCLB standards, and the new view of school as training grounds for the docile office worker, is responsible for the widening achievement gap.

    It seems that Americans don’t like or value intelligence generally, unless it’s highly creative and/or used to make a vast fortune, a la Steve Jobs. Some men may say they don’t like smart women, but our culture at large generally has little tolerance for smart men either. The trope of “high IQ and/or academic achievement=reject, loser, and creep” is alive and well, and always will be. I don’t like it, and don’t find it to be true on the whole, but if it works for some folks, it works, and who am I to say?

  • Sassy6519

    Susan, entirely unrelated, it just ocured to me that the male contraceptive pill might change a lot of things in the direction you/we want. Because cads will then be able to make sure they don`t have children and because they often don`t want children betas who do want children will be much, much, much, much, much more in demand. It will bring back a lot of the power betas had in the old days. Once it sinks in after one generation of seeing how this plays out the next generation of women will know they will have to make them self a catch for a beta willing to be a father if they are to have hopes of snagging one. By then it will be evident what betas think of slutty women and a bunch of other issues and THEY will hold ultimate power in the SMP.

    This actually sounds awesome, in my opinion. I don’t want kids, so this wouldn’t bother me.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Options A and E most closely describe Olive’s MO these days, without the feelings of superiority. Olive would never behave that way. She’s totally honest, but yeah, she doesn’t have much use for women at the moment.

    That’s very true, from a personal standpoint.

    Having said that, Emma seems like a sweet girl, and I always sort of self-identified with Hermione as a kid. I mean no disrespect to her, and Bellita (and Hope, and VD) raises a good point about deflecting the male gaze. I was mostly thinking of the quote box in the context of images circulating around facebook.

    Although Emma did go to Brown, and that was my first choice when I applied to college… *shifty eyes*

  • Mike C

    Is giving it up by date three to avoid getting dumped what you mean by the right way?

    Here is the problem Susan…this isn’t his position, it is a caricature of his position and honestly you are so much better than arguing against strawmen caricatures. That was never your MO for the bulk of the time I’ve been reading and commenting here

    So what does Rollo say on that:

    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/three-strikes/

    The problem inherent with coming up with hard and fast Game rules of engagement is that there’s always going to be a caveat or special conditions for a guy’s particular girl of focus at the time. Even when there’s not, guys are prone to think “there’s something special about this one.” Part of the reason that Plate Theory is integral to Game is that it encourages Men to disabuse themselves of their previous beta impressions of each woman they accidentally drew interest from as some unique little snowflake.

    so let me state from the outset that I’m not suggesting you kill your romantic, artistic souls in favor of cold calculations. ****In fact it’s vital you do keep that side of yourself intact for the survival of any future relationship and a more balanced human experience.****

    Put it this way, with just average Game, in 3 dates you should be able to determine if her desire level is high enough to want to fuck you.

    In 3 dates you’ll know if her desire is genuine or if it’s mitigated by something else – another guy in rotation, sexual hangups, filibustering, etc.

    The 3 date thing, this post, I’m hoping you’ll stop arguing against a caricature. You can win that argument easily. Discussing the more nuanced things is more interesting and more productive.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Olive, I applied to Brown, too. Didn’t get in. :| These days I don’t care so much about brand-name college anymore. I’d be okay if my kids went to a state school.

    @Sassy, “I don’t want kids” — really? That would put you as an interesting outlier. Do you think you’d ever change your mind?

    I didn’t really have an overwhelming urge to have kids until I met my husband. It was always, “Eh, maybe one day I’ll have kids.” That changed when I truly, really, fell head over heels in love.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Hope,
    Yeah I went to NYU briefly, dropped out, and went to a much-less-well-known school and loved it. It’s about the quality of education, not the prestige (and sadly, I’m at a state school now, and the quality is not as good as the private school I attended for undergrad :-( ).

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hope

    I’ve never had the desire to have kids, not even an “Eh, maybe one day I’ll have kids” idea. Whenever I’ve had to hold a baby, I’ll pretend to be enthused around my girlfriends, but I can’t wait to give it back to the mother. I don’t feel anything special when I hold or look at babies.

    I think the most I would be willing to budge would be to adopt a 7 or 8 year old one day, and that’s still pushing it.

  • Lindsay

    @Susan:
    I feel extremely sad, frustrated and threatened that men feel they can categorically state who is fuckable, or that Emma Watson’s priority should be catering to male sexuality. When the baseline male demand is for sexy and seductive, only sluts will get male attention. Perhaps that’s why some men claim that all women are sluts. The rest are invisible to them.

    To me, this stems from the same lineage as my critique of current (and 2nd-wave) feminist thought. Some women in the Feministing crowd et. al. want to change our culture so it caters to what they personally find acceptable, comfortable, and attractive. Remember that to them, I’m equally at fault for the culture as men are, as I consume images of women who I find attractive, and may even be guilty of perpetuating the male gaze. Just as I, certainly many men, and potentially even some women, find this type of thinking toxic (my husband hates it almost as much as I do), some women will naturally find Rollo’s assertions toxic. And men like Rollo in turn feel that women want to change attraction cues to please themselves. Who’s right? Well each side feels they’re right, and from their POV, they are – but attraction cues are also highly individual and deeply personal. So a woman may have done all she can to maximize attractiveness, kindness, and interest, but may not be getting bites because it’s not her time.

    Let’s be clear as well that I’m not condemning or vilifying any individual guy’s tastes on here, but rather, acknowledging that what makes someone attractive is very, very individual and personal. Many guys find this Emma chick’s haircut to be seriously unsexy. My husband’s best friend – a heterosexual alpha who’s endlessly successful with women – loves it and finds it to be a turn-on. Many women in my city like our football team’s quarterback, who to me, looks like a big, ugly brute with a crooked nose, and whose build is generally a turnoff for me. Many times, there’s just no accounting for taste. Rollo’s opinion doesn’t offend me, and I agree that this Emma chick isn’t sexy for me personally either, but I also don’t see it as The One True Answer. Generalizations promote efficiency – like the generalization that men don’t find short hair sexy – but are not the gospel truth.

    It’s like how I’m still on the job market. I’m not pleasing very many, clearly. I’ve torn my hair out trying to cater to the tastes of employers – multiple iterations of resumes, increasingly fancy portfolios, classes, mentoring, freelance work. I could keep doing this, but I still wouldn’t get anywhere because it’s just not my time. Same deal with those of you who are unhappily single. You may have done all you can to maximize attractiveness, kindness, and an interest in the opposite sex, but it may very simply not be your time yet. Use Aunt Sue’s advice and take into consideration what guys here say, but also keep in mind what may work for you personally. It’s a delicate balance – and I’m sure that just as I’m not happy with being unemployed and must fight not to take it personally, so, too, do some of you feel similarly about your dating life.

    We’re all in this together.

  • Mike C

    As Hope pointed out, women make decisions about their appearance for many reasons, not all of which aim to maximize sexual appeal.

    Right, and I echoed and agreed with that point. If this diminishing her sexiness is a tactical maneuver to up her “cred” as a serious actress, it is very smart. Kudos to her.

    I don’t understand why a man would look at a stranger’s short hair and take offense.

    Arrgghhhh. That is not what is offensive. Do you really honestly think that Rollo, or myself, or Yohami gives one flying fuck if Emma cuts her hair short. No. What is offensive to our sensibilities is to redefine this look as “sexy”. Sexy is not the boy cut and “less is more”. Now if a woman doesn’t want to be sexy, I could care less.

  • Wudang

    I do agree with you here. I think this particular quote pasted on this particular image served Rollo’s point well at the moment (and my guess? It was being circulated on facebook by women who are tired of trying to be physically sexy). But Rollo’s saying “hey ladies! you’re missing the point! sexy isn’t just physical, it’s an attitude and a demeanor that must be learned, so stop being pissed about the media’s definition of sexy and go learn how to be sexy, for real!”

    I noticed you said upthread that Rollo thinks Emma should serve herself up on a Girls Gone Wild platter. I don’t think that’s what he was trying to argue

    Correct. He was arguing AGAINST Girls Gone Wild slutty/sexy. This whole thread is like one dumb never ending strawman argument rant.

  • Mike C

    Let’s be clear as well that I’m not condemning or vilifying any individual guy’s tastes on here, but rather, acknowledging that what makes someone attractive is very, very individual and personal. Many guys find this Emma chick’s haircut to be seriously unsexy. My husband’s best friend – a heterosexual alpha who’s endlessly successful with women – loves it and finds it to be a turn-on.

    This is absolutely true, but not really meaningful. Of course, individual preferences/tastes vary. I could say human beings don’t like to eat their own boogers, and we could find some individuals who enjoy it. I could say men don’t like to fuck obese women over 500 lb and I’m sure you could find some men who are turned on by 500 lb women. Obviously, a short haircut doesn’t fall in that category. But the point is there is some widespread agreement on what look/behaviors are “sexy” that is more informative and useful then just making the statement of the obvious that individual triggers vary.

  • Wudang

    “feel extremely sad, frustrated and threatened that men feel they can categorically state who is fuckable, or that Emma Watson’s priority should be catering to male sexuality. When the baseline male demand is for sexy and seductive, only sluts will get male attention. Perhaps that’s why some men claim that all women are sluts. The rest are invisible to them.”

    Nope! Rollo says men strongly prefer seductive sexy as oposed to slutty sex although we always on some level apreceate slutty sexy for its use so the non sluts win if they cultivate seductive sexy like Rollo is trying to encourage them to do.

  • Lindsay

    @Mike:

    This is absolutely true, but not really meaningful.

    Right, which is why I said further down in my comment that generalizations promote efficiency and that people who find themselves unhappily single must take several factors into consideration when making decisions as rational actors.

  • Wudang

    “I could say men don’t like to fuck obese women over 500 lb and I’m sure you could find some men who are turned on by 500 lb women.”

    Thats actually a fetish. The women who weight that much are HIGHLY in demand amongst a small community of men that far outnumber them. So if you are really fat and can`t/can`t be bothered to loose weight, gain a hell of a lot and become a true whale and you will have guys falling for you again.

  • OffTheCuff

    Very beautiful women can not only pull off short hair

    Really hot women can get away with short hair, but I’ve seen precisely zero in my life, that are more attractive that way.

    they can look more beautiful with it.

    Remember when you commented on the attractive bodybuilder who was the most proud of his shoulders, and how obviously wrong he was?

    This is the same thing.

    Women can be elegant for sure with the hair up thing, but that’s attractive in the “oh, isn’t that sweet!” sense, not the “my boy parts involuntarily moved” sense.

  • Mike C
  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    feel extremely sad, frustrated and threatened

    Bad stuff. That´s clouding the judgement.

    that men feel they can categorically state who is fuckable,

    Just like women can categorically state who´s fuckable. That´s how it is.

    or that Emma Watson’s priority should be catering to male sexuality.

    I dont recall anyone saying it.

    When the baseline male demand is for sexy and seductive, only sluts will get male attention.

    Sexy and seductive are not the same thing. The baseline is femininity. As in, if you´re not a woman and you try to attract men, you´ll run into trouble.

    Perhaps that’s why some men claim that all women are sluts.

    A lot of women are sluts, but the previous wrong assumption isnt why.

    The rest are invisible to them.

    If by the rest you mean the non feminine women, and cats and other animal species, yes, they are mostly invisible. If you meant the non-sluts, no, you´re wrong.

    What´s really dumb with this post and thousands of comments later, is that, as Wudang and Mike and Rollo and Olive and some others and myself who actually got what this is about pointed out already, the point is totally the opposite of what you´re complaining about.

    In short you´re just making the same point as Rollo, while making the point for him that women dont know what sexy is.

    Sexiness isnt about slutting it up. Being sexy doesnt mean shaking your pussy on my face, even when that might turn me on, there are other ways. Seduction, femininity, respect, deference, flirt, romance, you name it.

    Putting sexy as the same thing as slutty is stupid = it doesnt solve the issue. It creates another problem, that by turning down the sluttiness you become sexy-less. When you could be full of sexy and free of slutty.

    So I´ve said the same thing like 20 times now and many others keep making the same point. Maybe you´ll get it when the sad-frustrated-threatened thing chills down.

  • Mike C

    Mike C,
    It’s trackbacked.

    Yes, good post by Bellita, I agree.

    Really, I’ve got no problem whatsoever with a woman doing things to “repel the male gaze”. At the same time, just don’t be pissed when it works and then bemoan lack of male attention. Don’t make yourself “invisible” and then complain about being invisible.

    The issue we are dancing around and Bellita kind of points at it is that many women want to be wanted/desired by men on THEIR terms, to be wanted for their intelligence (or footspeed-Artemis) instead of their gorgeous long hair or long legs. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way just like the guy can’t win the girl by putting her on a pedestal and being totally supplicating, and instead has to exhibit and demonstrate what women find “sexy”.

  • Mike C

    The “invisible” thing is interesting. So.

    I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read or heard about women complaining that they feel invisible to men. That they don’t get approached.

    Well, duh, how many of them are making themselves “invisible” to men by doing things like chopping off their hair or dressing in a totally unsexy manner?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Your post is getting bad reviews from the guys because it strikes us in the same way that the “fat girls are beautiful too” campaign strikes us. This is not your intent but its the feeling I have and I assume others as well.
      The pixie cut is sexy. No its not.

      First, I think the opinions may be evenly split wrt my attempting to define male attraction cues, but the guys who feel that way are naturally the ones who stuck around to debate the point. It’s very clear that those men are pushing back hard at the idea that women may choose not to display their sexuality, or offer an opinion on what they think is sexy. There’s a strong “go right ahead, you’ll get what you deserve” vibe to the whole thread. Some are fixated on deciding which photos are sexy and which are not. Others have focused on the idea of wearing short hair or choosing not to wear a miniskirt as offensive to males.

      What’s coming through very clearly is a strong sense of judgment, and that it is men who get to decide. I have no problem with that, no one is suggesting that men should get with anyone they don’t find attractive. But women can and do decide for themselves that they like themselves in short hair. They don’t care if men think they would look even better if they wore it differently. They’re getting as much attention as they want from men as it is. That was my experience, Lindsay and Sassy have said the same thing.

      As I said earlier, this is precisely the same dynamic as we saw in the Kate Bolick post. Rather than discuss the issue – 40 year old women remaining single and what that means for society, the comments from guys focused entirely on her looks. “She is scowling, that’s not sexy.” “She’s ugly, that’s why she is not married.” “She passed her sell-by date long ago.” The comments here were unique – at the Atlantic, on the talk shows, and continuing even now in the MSM, the focus is on how attractive she is. Why was the commentary so different here? Because it’s a corner of the manosphere, and emotions run high about this issue. Female appearance as a topic pushes a lot of buttons in these parts.

      What I object to in Rollo’s post is that same attitude of harsh judgment. He single handedly judges Emma Watson, and by extension all women, as being inane writers of diatribes who have no right to express what they find sexy, or what makes them feel sexy. At 18, Emma Watson felt that “less is more” was sexy (and several guys here agree). Through Rollo’s lens, which is “sex is war, and we take no prisoners,” that way of thinking is detrimental to men, as it reflects a woman’s owning her sexual agency, including the choice not to exercise it.

      I believe that the crux of the issue is this: If women were to exercise their agency to refrain from having casual sex, then dressing overtly sexually would obviously decrease. We might even go back to an era of displaying the well-turned ankle instead of the silicone-stuffed boob. Sex would once again be traded for commitment and resources. This is a direct threat to men’s access to sex, and would greatly diminish the applicability of Game as a tool for “getting beautiful women into bed.”

      Of course, this isn’t going to happen, not in my lifetime, but I suspect the mere threat of it is very disturbing to guys. Guys who are actively seeking to improve their access to sexual variety (or have done so in the past) are going to naturally be very resistant to the idea that a woman is hanging a “CLOSED” sign in the window.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Sexy and seductive are not the same thing.

    I meant slutty / sexy / seductive / feminine are not the same thing. With slutty being the simpler and feminine being the more complex, and sexy / seductive being compounds of several aspects of that range.

    The easiest way to not be sexy, for a girl, is to become a man.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Mike C,

    Well, duh, how many of them are making themselves “invisible” to men by doing things like chopping off their hair or dressing in a totally unsexy manner?

    Yup. Cut your hair, cover your skin, be stiff, drop any social skills, never flirt, yet be obnoxious, angry and demanding. Do everything to repel the male gaze and then wonder why nobody wants you.

  • Mike C

    Yup. Cut your hair, cover your skin, be stiff, drop any social skills, never flirt, yet be obnoxious, angry and demanding. Do everything to repel the male gaze and then wonder why nobody wants you.

    Yup. And then you end up with the two extremes. You’ve got the man-women you describe above who aren’t sexy physically at all, and have no femininity either. Almost gravitating to a sort of butch lesbian direction in appearance and mannerisms. And then on the other extreme, you get the extreme slutty appearance of the photo above. Well, if a guy has to pick he’ll probably go with the latter. Because at least slutty is still sexy in a cheap junk food kind of way.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Mike C,

    At the same time, just don’t be pissed when it works and then bemoan lack of male attention. Don’t make yourself “invisible” and then complain about being invisible.

    Yeah I get this, and I agree with you.

    To play devil’s advocate a bit, I think it’s a little confusing out there, for women like Emma (and the single version of me, who wasn’t so different). First you have the media telling you slutty=sexy, the end. That pushes you in the wrong direction when trying to figure out what is appealing. Then you have feminism telling you that you’re worth more than what makes you a woman, dammit! So then you aren’t sure what’s appealing. Maybe it’s miniskirts, maybe it’s smarts/status, or maybe it’s a combination!

    And for the ladies who don’t want to be slutty, how is it possible to attract men? I think that’s what I grappled with for the longest time, and still do to a certain extent. I had an interesting discussion with my BF during lunch today, about the fact that I hate high heels. They give me blisters, they’re uncomfortable, and I can’t walk fast in them (and I’m always late for everything). And there’s something else… they aren’t modest. They make a statement. They say “hey look at me!” It’s sort of… embarrassing (and I realized Emma used that exact word only after I typed it).

    But what no one ever tells you is there are ways to attract men besides wearing high heels. And I think that’s what Rollo’s getting at, and what (arguably) the quote from Emma is missing. Part of me wishes I had known sooner, but I guess it worked out for me anyway. My BF seems to think high heels are really just an accessory. ;-)

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    Your bit on the x chrom. and intelligence is mostly correct. Theres more than one gene involved and not all are sex-linked (and more to be discovered). The reason the x is more visible (and also why men tend to be either smarter or dumber) is that women get two copies men get one. If man gets a bad copy he is royally fucked, good copy equals genius. In women one copy undergoes x inactivation where one of the two is randomly rolled up into a ball and not used, this doesn’t change in that specific cell line ever again.
    So if she has one good and one bad her cells will put ~1/2 bad, 1/2 good randomly hence the bad is repressed slightly but so is the good.

    Now moving on.

    Your post is getting bad reviews from the guys because it strikes us in the same way that the “fat girls are beautiful too” campaign strikes us. This is not your intent but its the feeling I have and I assume others as well.
    The pixie cut is sexy. No its not.

    Next,

    “Are you saying that sexiness is equal, or maybe even higher for the slut pile, as Rollo claims (sexy 100% of the time!), but that women should manage their level of sexiness to avoid going into the wrong pile? Or are you saying that an LTR-worthy woman is sexier to you?”

    I was referring to your list of girl-kissing-girl, DP etc. Definetly sexy, I would DP a woman in an instant. But not my fiance or anyone who I’d let be the mother of my children or even into my house.

    Slut vs LTR pile. Both can equally make me want my P in their V but only one gets to cuddle.

    Next,

    I’m gonna define sexy differently than everyone else.

    Sexy= I want to stick my P in her V (and other various assorted orifices)
    Thats it.

    Now theres the slutty sexy. Which still makes me want P in V but I don’t want to waste the time on dinner first.

    Then theres sensual/seductive sexy. This is the gold market,
    its the woman who draws your attention in by the way she walks.

    Her completely average hips sway with a grace that could not be imagined by the gods, her voice is teasing yet promissing of the victory that is within grasp, her laugh is musical, her touch is soft and sensual.
    Her tits are nicely packed away, her skirt shows enough to leave the imagination some room to work, her hair is not in the dreaded pixie cut, her face is delicate and soft with little make-up that highlights the goddess like perfection that is there.

    Sensual > slutty. However slutty is still sexy.

    Emma Watson is neither slutty nor sensual. (Based on the first pic.) That is not a bad thing but don’t try and tell us its sexy.

    Last, on whether women can’t or won’t be seductive.

    I pray its because they can’t.
    If they can but won’t because the only ones who deserve it are the alphas then I don’t want to live her anymore.

    Tribalised, harem style mating here we come!

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read or heard about women complaining that they feel invisible to men. That they don’t get approached.

    This is interesting too, in part because I’ve been that girl. For a girl who’s shy and doesn’t necessarily want to be the center of attention (not all extroverts do, and not all extroverts are automatically outgoing), this SMP is miserable. Being slutty is all about being wild and crazy and in the middle of every social interaction, it’s about dressing loudly and putting yourself out there. And once you’ve defined sexy as slutty, that’s it. There’s no other way to be, unless you want to be a cat lady (which isn’t the reality, of course).

  • Mike C

    To play devil’s advocate a bit, I think it’s a little confusing out there, for women like Emma (and the single version of me, who wasn’t so different). First you have the media telling you slutty=sexy, the end. That pushes you in the wrong direction when trying to figure out what is appealing.

    I hear you that women are getting different messages from different sources. But here’s the thing. You come here, and you’ve got a bunch of guys all saying long hair is sexier/more appealing than short hair and instead of just listening, you get major pushback. Someone wants to argue about short hair being beautiful, someone else wants to point out they had a boyfriend when they had short hair, etc. It is almost as if most women are hardwired to want to want to try and refute any general principle with some isolated example. Same thing with intelligence. Some women simply do NOT want to hear the message that intelligence isn’t a big attraction trigger.. How can I empathize with someone who can’t just listen instead of always wanting to argue some point about male preference. Hair length, intelligence, joyful disposition, use of sarcasm. Same thing every time. Men say what they find attractive/like and the same cast of characters argues against it. Whatever. Do whatever you want. Cut your hair short, try to demonstrate your superior intellect every chance you get, don’t be playful or joyful, be sarcastic, and then just keep bitching about your lack of boyfriend/lack of dating success. Its like the unemployed guy bitching about not getting a job who just lays on the couch and only sends out a few resumes.

    And for the ladies who don’t want to be slutty, how is it possible to attract men?

    I was telling a guy in a chat the other day how it really is so easy for women and they just overcomplicate it. Do the best you can with God gave you physically. And then just be pleasant and fun. That’s it. That’s enough to generate some initial attraction.

    Personally, I think high heels are sexy because of how they shape a woman’s legs but IMO heels are really only for infrequent occasion, and they certainly are not a make it or break it item.

  • Lokland

    @ Intelligence

    I require intelligence in a woman for an LTR.
    Not the kind where she can read Nature and tell me whats going on but the kind where shes socially savy, self-aware enough to realise the world continues to exist after she leaves the room, able to talk a bit of politics/world events etc.

    It doesn’t make her sexy…the sensual or slutty kind.
    I would list it as a completely seperate issue from sexy. A woman with normal intelligence can still be sensual or slutty but so can a woman with above average intelligence.

    Let me give an example,

    when I was in grad school theres was this girl I will refer to as E.
    E was a cute woman, beautiful little ass, body type I liked. I wanted to be inside her within 1/2 a second of meeting her.
    E let me take her to the park for a walk.
    E was also a genius. One night we ended up at a party with her head on my knee and we talked about history and politics.
    E tooled me with her knowledge in a fun and flirty way. I remember having one of the most awesome conversations I have ever had in my entire life.
    E came back to my place that night where we proceeded to have tons of nonP&V fun. (Ohh I tried so hard.)

    E’s intelligence had nothing to do with the fact I would have lobotimized myself while simultaneously cutting of my left nut if I could just been inside her.

    E continued to escalate physically with me while also maintaining the great conversation.

    Her intelligence had nothing to do with the fact that I wanted to fuck the living daylights out of her within 10 seconds of meeting her. That was entirely her body.
    Her intelligence did however assist in the final moments of hesitation when I bought an engagement ring last summer.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Mike,
    I won’t argue with you about the hair. Or the sarcasm, or the intelligence, or whatever. If a guy is attracted to long hair and playful happiness and nurturing, that’s what he’s attracted to. No point challenging it, because the guy himself can’t change his own triggers.

    In any case, I’ve been catching up on the thread a bit, and it’s amazing how much the hair thing was blown out of proportion, just in general. It reminded me of that Alex post, when all anyone could talk about was his smoking. I think the more interesting point behind Rollo’s message was this notion of seduction, and what it takes to be seductively sexy (and not slutty-sexy). And, more importantly, it begs the question of what happened to seduction, and why is it a lost art?

    The answer, I suspect, lies somewhere in feminism. But what I’ve never been able to understand is why feminism celebrates sluttiness and not seduction. Isn’t seduction more “empowering”? What is “empowering” about having sex with 40 men, just because they liked your boobs/butt/legs/whatever?

  • Wudang

    Whats DP?

  • Mike C

    In any case, I’ve been catching up on the thread a bit, and it’s amazing how much the hair thing was blown out of proportion, just in general. It reminded me of that Alex post, when all anyone could talk about was his smoking.

    Well…the hair is just the hair…I think it became such a big deal because of the core issue it speaks to. WHO DEFINES WHAT IS SEXY? I think Emma along with some of the women here want to retain for themselves the prerogative to deem what is female sexiness. I think most guys are rightfully perturbed that some women seem to want to dictate what is supposed to give us boners. That is at the core of the contentiousness.

    I think the more interesting point behind Rollo’s message was this notion of seduction, and what it takes to be seductively sexy (and not slutty-sexy).

    Did you watch the Ava Gardner video I posted? Do you understand why that was seductive in about 5 minutes without flashing a tit or leg? If you watch some of those old-time sex symbols you’ll see how to be seductively sexy without being slutty.

    And, more importantly, it begs the question of what happened to seduction, and why is it a lost art? The answer, I suspect, lies somewhere in feminism.

    Yes, because I think the idea of being seductively sexy is at odds with the feminist idea of “being taken seriously”. Now they aren’t at odds if you know when to deploy what behavior. Being seductive is obviously inappropriate for a business meeting, but good tactics in a social setting with a man you are romantically/sexually interested in.

    But what I’ve never been able to understand is why feminism celebrates sluttiness and not seduction.

    Because sluttiness is more akin to male sexuality. Some people say feminism is the ultimate shit test. Beyond that, I think it might be the ultimate in penis envy. Ultimately, they want to be men….male in their behaviors and aggressive sluttiness is more male. Playful seductiveness is feminine and feminism wants to eschew anything connected with traditional femininity.

    What is “empowering” about having sex with 40 men, just because they liked your boobs/butt/legs/whatever?

    Nothing.

  • Rum

    One of the more painful realizations about women after the Red Pill goes down is the extent to which they are influenced by “media”. I mean, if guys are saturated by media telling them to get boners for obese chicks with short hair they would think,”Great. If more men go that way, maybe I can have more of the actual hotties for myself”. For guys, the idea that culture/media strongly influences their hottness detector will never be taken seriously. We just know better than that. We can remember what puberty was like.
    With women, it is as if they feel like they have to ask permission to be attracted to a man. The idea of going against the media teaches seems to fill them with anxiety if not real dread.
    All of which they project onto guys with relentless, irresistible certainty.
    This might be my last sober post for some time…

  • Rum

    the idea of going against WHAT the “media” teaches fills them with dread, etc.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    So to be clear Emma Watson is not sexy if men don’t find her sexy, regardless what women think, straight men have the say on sexiness of the opposite gender. Edward Cullen is sexy because women find him sexy, regardless what men think, straight women have the say of the opposite gender.
    There solved, now can we close this post and start something new now? Please??? :(

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Jacob Black is sexy because women find him sexy, regardless what men think, straight women have the say of the opposite gender.

    I fixed it for you. ;-)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I fixed it for you.

    I though this was about no redefining sexy for the other gender? ;)

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    What are you saying, I have a penis? Damn. I guess I should go let my BF know, he won’t be happy I’ve been tricking him this whole time… :-P

  • J

    I think we might all be surprised to see how few men actually will make the concious choice to have children. I just read abut a survey that found 42% of women said they were willing to lie about contraception in order to get pregnant with an unwilling man. When that willingness is so high pregnancy rates can have been held artifically much higher than they would had men had a pill.

    I’d be surprised. A few days ago, I heard about a study that claimed that men who want marraige and kids now outnumber women who want them. As to a male pill, I’d have no objection to it, but I sure wouldn’t advise women to believe every guy who claims to be on it. I wouldn’t want to turn over responsiblilty for my fertility to some guy.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    I though this was about no redefining sexy for the other gender? ;)

    LOOOOOL

    What are you saying, I have a penis?

    I think she means Jacob is a she.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I think she means Jacob is a she.

    Which makes me a lesbian or a man….

  • Sasha

    It’s impossible to discuss Emma’s quote/picture without context.

    In the context of 18-year old who had tons of attention since early age that she didn’t know how to handle properly, I see a girl with deep feminine potential (just look at her earlier pictures) shutting herself down SPECIFICALLY so that she could develop her own version of “sexy” rather than simply conform to superficial standard. It’s impossible to develop own version of “sexy” while being eye-fucked by thousands of men. Give Emma 5-10 years and I bet you’ll see a beautiful, rather feminine woman.

    I would actually recommend women with gorgeous hair to shave their heads at least once in their lives to learning how to be sexy without reliance on powerful external props. Kind of like high-altitude training.

    If the context is a 40-year old woman who keeps (rather than cuts) her hair short because she thinks that short hair is sexy – she is OFF. Susan’s headshot is lovely but is absent of sexiness.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Olive
    I was going to answer you but Yohami’s line is too good. I’m stealing it!…with respect of course ;)

    PS
    I just heart that Whitney Houston died. So shocking R.I.P. :(

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    I just heart that Whitney Houston died.

    I just found out too.

    So this is my single life now. Saturday night, chatting at HUS about haircuts, Edward, Jacob and Whitney Houston.

  • Sasha

    Slutty is not sexy – unless you consider sugar good dessert.

    There is pre-sexy slutty – common images abound. It’s like pure sugar – overwhelming and undesirable beyond the first couple of granules. I wouldn’t seek it but if I catch a glimpse of it, I’d feel the spike and let it go.

    There is post-sexy slutty – “sluttyness” that arises from deep sexuality, when a woman becomes a holy whore – whether for one man or the world. It’s like dried dates – the sweetness is gentle, lasting and nourishing.
    ******
    In the world of processed food, processed slutty gets pushed to the top – it’s cheap to produce, distribute and leads to a roller-coaster.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    So this is my single life now. Saturday night, chatting at HUS about haircuts, Edward, Jacob and Whitney Houston.

    Mmm still better than the ex?

  • Wudang

    In a post long ago Susan wrote about a study that looked at how the gender balance in different places arround the world affected wether there was a lot of hokking up and early sex during courthsip or wether guys were willing to wait long etc. Could someone tell me which thread that was?

  • Rum

    Regarding W. Houston. Look on the bright side: She lived a lot longer than she was expected to. Besides, back in days when real rock stars walked the earth, they tended to die at the age of 27. It is quite a list.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    On the subject of how to dress femininely, this is not scientific and just my opinion, but I think works.

    Rule of thumb: If it would look ridiculously gay or over-the-top weird on a straight guy, it’s probably feminine.

    Corollary to the rule: If you wouldn’t wear in front of your easily-shocked grandmother, it’s probably slutty.

    So: sundress with flowers, does not show cleavage, goes to the knee, passes both rules. Collared shirt and pantsuit, doesn’t pass first rule, passes second rule.

    There may be exceptions to this, but I think overall, it’s a good starting point.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Regarding W. Houston. Look on the bright side: She lived a lot longer than she was expected to. Besides, back in days when real rock stars walked the earth, they tended to die at the age of 27. It is quite a list.

    True but in our generation it has become less common for famous people to just die like that.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Anacaona, yes

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Rum
    That reminded me that in his book Margaret Atwood comments that when she was only known as poetess people asked her plainly when she was going to kill herself because that is what poetess did back in the day…good thing she was also a novelist. :D

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI
  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Anacaona, yes

    I figured out as much. At the very least I’m sure you will pull out a couple of songs from this. Had you heard Bella from Emmanuel?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVxaJ6wDG7s Careful is an oldie the hair and the clothing are awful :p

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Winehouse died at 27

    Yeah but that list has 80% of the dead’s being more than 30 years ago. A whole generation away.

  • Lindsay

    2012 marks the 10-year anniversary of Joe Strummer, Layne Staley, and John Entwistle (bassist for The Who) passing. While managing to escape the 27 Club, all 3 deaths were sad for me and many other folks sharing my taste in music. Staley also died on April 5, which is a big day for Seattle rock history.

    Those of you who remember the 90s also know Layne’s death was not a surprise, except in that it didn’t happen sooner. I donated to his fund that year and his mom wrote me a lovely letter in response. I am planning something better to give his mom for the 10th anniversary.

  • J

    I’ve never had the desire to have kids, not even an “Eh, maybe one day I’ll have kids” idea. Whenever I’ve had to hold a baby, I’ll pretend to be enthused around my girlfriends, but I can’t wait to give it back to the mother. I don’t feel anything special when I hold or look at babies.

    Throughout my teens and 20s, babies and toddlers literally disgusted me; they do tend to be sticky and to smell like poop. When I was around 30, I started wanting some. By the time I actually had kids, it was as though I personally had invented mother love.

    It’s different when they’re yours.

  • J

    Munch–

    . Dunno’ why Frank married Mia; don’t think he liked boys. I think she was young and hot and he was sayin’ “I can still get the tenderest meat there is”. Glad he’s not around to read this; just suggesting he liked boys would probably get my arm stuffed up my ass, if not the full my-name-is-a-freeway-offramp-treatment.

    She had long hair when they married; she cut it off after an argument with him.

    Now, on to the subject of “less is more”. I am an ass man-….Hailey Mill’s framed in her pretty prim white panties…..a gaggle of women on the beach —–I KNOW I ain’t seeing it all, and that makes all the difference. (ref Robert Frost’s “The Road Not Taken”).

    From Hayley Mills to beach butt to Frost–thus we have the Renaissamce Man that is Munch.

  • J

    Munch, are you a Zappa fan?

  • Lindsay

    Throughout my teens and 20s, babies and toddlers literally disgusted me; they do tend to be sticky and to smell like poop. When I was around 30, I started wanting some. By the time I actually had kids, it was as though I personally had invented mother love.

    It’s different when they’re yours.

    On the bus, I see how women who hate and/or don’t want their children behave. They scream at their children, shake them, and beat them silly. I also personally know a significant number of people who come from homes where they weren’t wanted, and it messes you up for life.

    So I completely disagree. Sometimes, the only thing that’s different when they’re your own is that you’re stuck raising children you don’t want, resent, or even hate and abuse constantly, for the next 18-25 years of your life. It’s awesome it worked out well for you, but what that proves is that you actually wanted children.

  • Lindsay

    On that note, I grew up in a school district with a lot of low-income people who didn’t know how to or didn’t care to use birth control, and my class was filled with abused and neglected kids. Some of them came to school when sick because the free breakfast and lunch were the only guarantee of a hot meal. Others showed up with belt marks all over them. Many of them went on to have their own families of abused and neglected kids while perpetuating the cycle of poverty for generations to come.

    It’s heartbreaking.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    On the bus, I see how women who hate and/or don’t want their children behave. They scream at their children, shake them, and beat them silly. I also personally know a significant number of people who come from homes where they weren’t wanted, and it messes you up for life.

    I’m sure if you ask them they will tell you they love their children. Don’t confused bad parenting with lack of love. Many people grow up being treated the same way by their parents and consider this the way to raise kids.

  • Mike

    Late to the party, not gonna rifle through 500+ comments. Just gonna leave me 2 pennies and run.

    I’m proud of Emma. While she isn’t ‘sexy’ to me in this pic (i have a visceral loathing of short boy/bowl haricuts on women, sorry Susan) and someone said properly earlier, it’s androgynous.

    However, I’m glad she’s comfy as she is and doesn’t feel the need to ‘conform’ to prototypical cookie cutter ‘slut’ as defined by the male PUA leaders or the sex poz flaunt what you got and blueball’m all street walker types.

    I’ve seen Emma on the red carpet and she knows how to look stunning when the time is necessary, and she knows how to be herself the rest of the time.

    And if she has no issue waiting to find a guy who likes her style, so be it. My ex wife was very forceful in letting me know that me in Abercrombe tops was ‘sexy’ and my old faded beater hoodies were not.

    I too told her long mane hair was sexy, short boy cuts were not. We both defined sexy for each other because we knew it was in our best interests to keep our interests on each other.

    But again, props for Emma. I’m out.

  • Lindsay

    My husband and I have first-hand and second-hand experience with the situations of unwanted and unloved children, so what you say does not apply in all instances.

    I realize it’s a bitter pill to swallow for people who cannot conceive of being in such a situation though. And that’s ok.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Lindsay
    Learn a bit that life doesn’t revolve around you and your husband’s experiences.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_in_the_home#Where_corporal_punishment_in_the_home_is_lawful

  • Lindsay

    We’re not talking about the same thing. And that’s fine. We’ll simply have to agree to disagree and move on.

  • J

    On the bus, I see how women who hate and/or don’t want their children behave. They scream at their children, shake them, and beat them silly.

    I think we’ve all seen our share of people like that. They tend to be young, poor, uneducated or otherwise disadvantaged. Often they were raised by parents who treated them in the same manner and don’t know much better, but I agree with Ana that few of them would tell you that they don’t love or want their kids. In fact, I’d bet a good number of them believe that a lack of physical discipline is a lack of love. I’d also guess that many of those women wanted their kids when they were pregnant and thought they would deliver a source of unconditional love rather than a ball of needs which is what a kid actually is.

  • Lindsay

    Thanks, J. The last sentence of your post was exactly what I was trying to express, but you said it better than I could.

    I have an exceeding amount of respect and gratitude for parents who are devoted to raising their kids as best they can – because today’s kids are tomorrow’s future. I have a friend in her mid-40s who’s raising a great 8-year-old boy, and has just sent the older boy off to college. I look forward to seeing his journey through adulthood.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Moving on…

    Talking about appearances and perception I was confused with a homeless person today. It was cold and rainy and I took the bus home and I forgot my umbrella (stupid weather forecast lied to me) so I was wrapped in two coats, covered my head with the hood to protect my brand new hair do (I got the Bob Susan :D) and with my old backpack. I stared at windows sandwich place restaurant because I was hungry I didn’t ate anything for like six hours before but then I decided that I wanted more protein than carbs and went to another store,covering myself with my backpack. And nice amish looking guy with a long beard stopped me in the store. I was also going to buy an umbrella, clearly all wet from running after me to ask me if I was okay, when I convinced him that I was he left I assume he though I couldn’t afford the sandwich and was going to buy me one. Still I asked the hubby if I looked like a bum and he agreed that I did. Interesting experience at least for me.

  • Glasses

    Why did you post your own picture, Susan? What for? It really doesn’t add anything to the story. Narcissism?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why did you post your own picture, Susan? What for? It really doesn’t add anything to the story. Narcissism?

      Hardly. As I said to Rollo, the intention was to be self-effacing. And it worked, most of the comments have been negative, haha. I posted it as a matter of full-disclosure – I’m weighing in on the question of sexy, knowing full well that men would not consider me so in that picture. And I’m fine with that – sexy was absolutely not what I was going for in that headshot or in my professional acting roles. The short hair suited me very well for a couple of years.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        I am curious to know what people think of Rollo’s clarification. Contrary to what Olive claims, his main point is that women are not the arbiters of sexiness.

        Here’s a thought I’d be interested to discuss:

        One hundred years ago, men got aroused at the sight of an ankle.

        Today, the largest growing segment of Viagra users is men 18-25. Men are so accustomed to seeing the female body on the screen, many have trouble achieving full arousal with a real woman.

        It is female intrasexual competition that dictates how women display their sexuality, and that is what has dictated fashions forever.

        Therefore…women have directly controlled what men find sexy over time. And if they went back to dressing in floor length dresses with bustles, men would go back to admiring ankles.

        Women control male attraction cues by manipulating supply and demand. That is what is really making men upset here.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Whenever I’ve had to hold a baby, I’ll pretend to be enthused around my girlfriends, but I can’t wait to give it back to the mother. I don’t feel anything special when I hold or look at babies.

    Yikes.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Lindsay,

    Naw, sorry, before I met hubs. My grammar and formatting are pretty shit throughout this entry. Sorry for the muddle. This will be my only post today most likely.

    I just meant that if the guy you were seeing immediately before you met and dated your husband was the type to just be into you for superficial reasons, then you can’t rightly say that you’re one to avoid those types….

    Seriously. I got back into pop music because of him. Even disco. He’s been interacting with fans more on his FB page, too, which is great to see (even if some of the fans are so crazy to be on the same Internet as Patton that they have meltdowns!). It sounds like you met him in-person, and if so, lucky you!

    What about him? He gets the honor of knowing Jesus Mahoney…

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    Seems like since I didnt have love in my childhood, I go and invest myself on less responding people and try to gain their affection. Which is a bait for narcissists. Lesson learned.

    I could’ve saved you the trouble and told you that months ago, bro.

    I’ve known many clams (hard on the outside, soft on the inside), hence my defense of them. I have a knack for teasing them open, too, it seems. The key is trust. Being a clam yourself, you don’t find those people easier to read?

    I’ve been reading what you and Mike C have been saying about Rollo’s stance, and it makes sense, actually. I agree with it in principle. However, I think it’s a mistake to use Watson to drive the point home. I think the girl was just trying to say that she didn’t want to be sexualized by the media. I’m pretty sure the girl’s not trying to be totally asexual.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Right. So is a slut with a count > 100 likely to have true enthusiasm in a drunken ONS? Do you feel confident that you can rock her world? If so, then why do men care about the number count at all?

    I didn’t follow the entire thread of this part of the conversation, but rocking someone’s world in bed is no guarantee of fidelity. The higher the count, the more likely that rocking her world in bed isn’t going to prevent her from following the tingle tomorrow or the next day.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    However, I think it’s a mistake to use Watson to drive the point home. I think the girl was just trying to say that she didn’t want to be sexualized by the media. I’m pretty sure the girl’s not trying to be totally asexual.

    I think the problem is we’ve formulated this entire argument about Emma the person, and that wasn’t Rollo’s point at all. He was talking about this image in the context of its circulation on facebook. The reality is Emma looked totally different at 18 than she does in this picture. So someone (not Rollo, not Emma) chose to paste this quote on this picture, and then it was circulated on facebook. So someone (not Emma) is advocating the notion of “guys just don’t know what’s sexy these days!” And that’s what’s pissing off Rollo. And Yohami and Mike C.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I think the problem is we’ve formulated this entire argument about Emma the person, and that wasn’t Rollo’s point at all.

    Could be, but then it was a mistake for him to use Emma the person to try to illustrate his point.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Honestly, I’m surprised that there are men who don’t agree that less is more when it comes to sexiness. Even if a guy likes to go to titty bars to gawk at naked women, that enjoyment is founded upon the fact that breasts are typically covered up in our society. The notion of titty bars would be absurd to African tribal people whose women walk around topless as a matter of course. And, though I don’t know much about tribal people, I’m guessing the tribesmen aren’t sprouting boners every time they’re faced with a topless woman.

  • lovelost

    @HUS,
    “Advice From Life’s Graying Edge on Finishing With No Regrets”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/10/health/elderly-experts-share-life-advice-in-cornell-project.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all%3Fsrc%3Dtp&smid=fb-share

    ON MARRIAGE A satisfying marriage that lasts a lifetime is more likely to result when partners are fundamentally similar and share the same basic values and goals. Although romantic love initially brings most couples together, what keeps them together is an abiding friendship, an ability to communicate, a willingness to give and take, and a commitment to the institution of marriage as well as to each other.

    An 89-year-old woman who was glad she stayed in her marriage even though her young husband’s behavior was adversely affected by his military service said, “Too many young people now are giving up too early, too soon.”

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Could be, but then it was a mistake for him to use Emma the person to try to illustrate his point.

    I agree. He would’ve done better to address the people who created this image, not Emma herself. I reread the beginning of the post again, and while he starts off being rather harsh, by the end of the first paragraph or two, he’s discussing Emma’s words as a writer would discuss a text.

    The actual post is interesting, and with all due respect to Susan, in this particular instance I think she’s misunderstood Rollo’s views. She has a good point: Emma shouldn’t be attacked. But it’s when she says that Rollo objects to Emma’s failure to put her boobs on display that I think she’s a little off the mark. Rollo is saying that Emma can be sexy without being slutty, something many women in this era seem to fail to understand (let me introduce you to the girl who’s new obsession is my brother. Or the one before her….).

  • lovelost

    @Susan

    Do you feel safe putting up your pic?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    I only read what was excerpted by people here, but that was my understanding of Rollo’s post, too. But if Sue misunderstood Rollo, then it was because Rollo misunderstood Watson. Watson was clearly saying that she had no desire to be a media sex symbol. That, in my opinion, is commendable and shows good character on her part.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    And yea, the idea that sluttiness is always (or even ever) sexy is a bizarre one to me… and a possible reflection of his low character. Or else a reflection of his poor taste.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,

    I only read what was excerpted by people here, but that was my understanding of Rollo’s post, too.

    You should read the post. I was all ready to jump on Rollo too, but then I read the post and it wasn’t that bad. And I don’t even like to read Rollo, generally.

    Watson was clearly saying that she had no desire to be a media sex symbol. That, in my opinion, is commendable and shows good character on her part.

    I agree. But in my opinion, we should look beyond this characterization of Emma (or Rollo’s mischaracterization) and look at the point of his post. Let’s not write him off, even if we don’t agree with some of his viewpoints. The particular image (and the context of its circulation) served his point well, and to be honest, I think he and Susan are on the same side here. They’re both arguing for women to be less slutty, more sexy (i.e. seductive). But I think there’s some bad blood between them, which is why he keeps coming back and being rather nasty.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    Idk. I have no use for Rollo. He’s too much of an asshole to bother with. Funny how quick you are to be critical of girls you have problems with but are incredibly tolerant of an asshole like Rollo. Not complaining; tolerance is good. I just have a limited supply, so I don’t waste it on assholes.

  • Lokland

    @ JM

    “Watson was clearly saying that she had no desire to be a media sex symbol. That, in my opinion, is commendable and shows good character on her part.”

    I agree. Good stuff for her personally and career wise without a doubt.
    I went and tracked down the original FB thing out of curiosity. Its along the lines of “be a man”, “this is hot”, “their intimidated” etc.

    I believe thats the problem guys are having here. Women (in general not Watson or the ladies here) are trying to tell my penis when to stand-up. I find that offensive and ridculous. Sassy mentioned it upthread everyone will try to redifine sexy so it describes them but thats just not how it works. Watson didn’t do that some other moron did, Rollos goal was correct but his target was incorect.

    Out of curiosity how would you define sexy?

    @ Susan

    Legitimate possibility. But that runs long the conspiracy theorist idea that Feminism was designed to make it so women could finally ride the carousel guilt free.
    Its plausible but ridculous.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    And yea, the idea that sluttiness is always (or even ever) sexy is a bizarre one to me… and a possible reflection of his low character. Or else a reflection of his poor taste.

    Think of it in the way we’ve discussed media before, in terms of “rubbing the public’s junk.” The media’s image of slutty=sexy is all about pure biology. It’s why men will bang a slutty girl but they won’t take her home to meet the parents. I think you see yourself as above this, and to be honest, that’s highly commendable.

    My brother isn’t so different. He’s never had a girlfriend, or even kissed a girl, and last night he told me about this girl who’s crushing on him, but he’s not interested. She’s a pretty girl, but she also has a partner count of at least 15, plus I suspect she’s too… loud for him. When I asked him why he won’t just hook up with her, to get some experience, he said “that’s mean.” He didn’t say she turns him off, or that he has zero sexual interest, he just doesn’t want to P&D a girl, because he feels it’s dishonorable and not in good taste. That’s essentially what you’re saying as well.

  • Mike M.

    A thought on looks, intelligence, and character in a woman…

    Think of fishing.

    Looks are the bait. You use them to attract a man’t attention.

    Personality (including intelligence) is the hook. This keeps a man’s attention.

    Character is the line. You use it to reel him in for marriage.

    You can’t go fishing effectively without all three…and a knowledge of where the game fish are to be found.

  • jess

    Co – sign comment 522

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Idk. I have no use for Rollo. He’s too much of an asshole to bother with.

    As a person, I’m sure he’s a dick. On an academic level, I didn’t mind this particular post. I won’t jump up and add him to my blogroll now, I mostly read the post because I was interested in the original source.

    Funny how quick you are to be critical of girls you have problems with but are incredibly tolerant of an asshole like Rollo.

    :-P Susan is right, I’m really frustrated with women right now. I’m trying to stay away from guys, because it’s not really fair to invest in friendships with other men when I’m in a relationship, so I’m looking for female friends, and so far I’ve failed miserably, which means I hang out by myself in my free time (which is pure misery for an extrovert). I dunno, SayWhaat and Anacaona (sort of) say it’s something with me, and maybe they’re right. I’ve got a whole history of not getting along with other women, and it would certainly explain why I’m not trying harder to get out of my comfort zone. On the other hand, Grerp says it’s the women. So who the fuck knows really.

    And like I said, I don’t read Rollo regularly. The few times I’ve perused his site, his posts have not grabbed my attention.

  • VD

    Guys with smarts at the upper end of the bell curve wouldn’t agree with Roissy’s maxims, however. Some of them tend toward the Asperger’s end of the spectrum, and I find them to be good company. We “get” each other, and we can sit there and babble on about computer/software/programming/science crap for hours and dig it.

    You’re incorrect. We absolutely agree with them. Any woman with an IQ over 120 at the very least has a potential to be a pain in the ass far beyond that of her less intelligent sisters. What you’re forgetting is that someone with +5SD intelligence is further removed from someone like you – I would estimate around +2SD based on your pedestrian intellectual interests – as you are from the norm. Furthermore, highly intelligent women tend to be very unstable as well as less intellectual than their male counterparts; the smartest woman I ever dated ended up in a mental ward by the time she was 25. Intelligent men simply aren’t looking for intellectual companionship from women the way most intelligent women are, they’re more concerned about intellectual compatibility. For example, one of my hobbies is writing books, so it is FAR more important to me that my wife be able to amuse herself for several hours in the evening than provide me with a stimulating conversation about the various books we’re reading or whatever. And “stimulating conversations” are seldom actually intellectual; women tend to like to talk about things rather than seriously delving into them. I’ve met plenty of smart, literate women who enjoy talking intelligently about science, history, literature, and current events, but every single one will flee for the kitchen if something like intellectual dishonesty in the Euthyphro dialogue or the dichotomy of the Austrian Business Cycle mechanism and equity prices is brought up.

    Furthermore, smart women often feel the need to constantly challenge smarter men and it gets tedious constantly have to beat down their pointless arguments. My best female friend from high school has an MBA from Tuck and she was always challenging me, getting swatted down, then getting mad about it. Fun and stimulating, but not something anyone wants to live with every day. The salient difference is this. When a highly intelligent woman meets one of my more intelligent friends, (by which I mean between +3D and +5D), her eyes brighten and she is instantly attracted. We, on the other hand, tend to roll our eyes because we know exactly what is coming with the casual reference to the academic qualifications followed by the inevitable attempts to first impress, then ascertain her relative cognitive status.

    Which, as Roissy rightly said, is a pain in the ass. That being said, the guy who brought up children was dead-on.

  • Sassy6519

    I believe thats the problem guys are having here. Women (in general not Watson or the ladies here) are trying to tell my penis when to stand-up. I find that offensive and ridculous. Sassy mentioned it upthread everyone will try to redifine sexy so it describes them but thats just not how it works. Watson didn’t do that some other moron did, Rollos goal was correct but his target was incorect.

    When did I say that?

    I said that both genders get miffed sometimes when it comes to what is considered attractive to the opposite gender because they don’t have any control over it. I never said everyone will try to redefine sexy.

    The backlash that some men are getting is akin to the backlash women get whenever the topic of female attraction triggers comes up. Personally, this discussion isn’t news to me. I’m not the least bit upset because I have always been aware of what is attractive to men. I think it’s up to every woman, however, just how much she wants to abide by those attraction triggers.

    Like I’ve mentioned before, I sported a pixie cut for two years. The reason I did it is because it was easier to maintain, I thought it was cute on me, and I had the features to pull it off without looking manly. You could bet your bottom dollar that I never would have worn it if I had a plain or mannish face. Plus, I had other attributes to compensate for it.

    I think women need to be aware of the fact that there has to be a balance in the masculine and feminine energy with which they present themselves. If you have short hair, you had better have plenty of feminine traits to make up for it. If you have a plain face, maximize your femininity by having long hair and dressing well. Don’t hand a guy a mannish woman on a silver platter and expect him to be enthused.

    For example, the list of celebrity women that had short hair, earlier in the thread, includes women who could pull it off because they were very feminine/attractive to compensate for it. Short hair isn’t for every woman. I also think it’s important for women to be aware of the fact that, even if they have the looks/aura to pull off short hair, men would still prefer them with longer hair. Does that mean that women with short hair will never have guys that like them? No. Does that mean that men may be attracted to the overall woman, despite her short hair? Probably.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    What´s a clam?

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    I do want to add that my feelings about women in general have nothing to do with the way I interpreted Rollo’s post. You’re talking about my personal history, and I’m talking about my interpretation of a specific written piece. It’s tedious when I side with Team Man, and someone brings up my feelings towards women. I may be frustrated with them from a personal standpoint, but I don’t consistently side with Team Man on everything. To be honest, I don’t like sides. Why can’t we all search for truth together, regardless of whether we’re assholes or crazy bitches?

    You’ll notice that I have zero feelings of enmity towards the women around here. On the contrary, Anacaona, Hope, Sassy, Susan, Bellita, I find them all interesting. I wish I could find women like them in real life besides my mother. Point me and I’m there.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “Very beautiful women can not only pull off short hair”

    Really hot women can get away with short hair, but I’ve seen precisely zero in my life, that are more attractive that way.

    I’ve seen a small number, maybe 5 or 10, but that’s out of a lot of women, obviously, & they tended to be quite androgynous girls, too (or lesbian), so it fit with their character. For the most part, it seems a universal truth the world over that long hair on a woman is her crowning glory, just left alone as it is.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Oh shit, I’ve italicized everything again.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Olive -> Susan

    But it’s when she says that Rollo objects to Emma’s failure to put her boobs on display that I think she’s a little off the mark.

    Agreed but not just a little, Susan got the exact opposite interpretation of the piece. I dont think she read the whole thing.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Munster,

    That song’s from the best Zappa album ever, along with Lumpy Gravy of course.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Yohami,
    I was trying to be diplomatic. Way to ruin it.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    If I write this in italics, will the italics go away?

  • Mike

    @Jesus M 524

    Honestly, I’m surprised that there are men who don’t agree that less is more when it comes to sexiness.

    I’ve always been that way. I’ve seen women in skin tight revealing outfits they have no business being in = absolutely awful vs. women completely bundled up in jackets and fluffy boots with only their face and hands showing = sexy.

    I remember getting my former wife into shopping at Vic.Secret. We’d flip through the catalogue together and she’d point to items she’d want and to things she’d think i would like. One time she picked out a really nice looking sweater dress and i approved. She said ‘really? i thought this was more your style!’.. and pointed to a dress with a really short skirt cutoff.

    I replied, yea, id like the short skirt one, but only if she wore it to bed.

    I’m pretty sure ‘sexy’ boils down to part fashion/part attitude. Just throwing on a street walker outfit, drinking and swearing like a sailor and pissing yourself is NOT sexy.

    I would have thought years of Jersey Shore being on TV would have shown women how NOT to be sexy.

  • Sassy6519

    You’re incorrect. We absolutely agree with them. Any woman with an IQ over 120 at the very least has a potential to be a pain in the ass far beyond that of her less intelligent sisters.

    I don’t think it’s the IQ itself that is the problem. I think it’s what the woman decides to do with her IQ that is the problem. Most men I’ve dealt with haven’t had a problem with my intellect because I don’t use it as a combative force, for the most part. I don’t try to bust their balls or prove superiority when talking to them. I just like having fascinating conversations. I’ve had experiences where I’ve talked about a far out topic for hours with a guy, and the end result was him complimenting me on my brain and going on about how hard it is to find a girl who can talk about something else besides vapid topics.

    I know that if I had tried to one up them all the time, my presence would have been seen as a nuisance instead of a pleasure. No one want to be with someone who they have to keep their guard up with 24/7.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Sassy,
    +1 on your post about intelligence. My experience has been similar.

  • Lokland

    @ Sassy

    I misinterpreted.

    I’m with you on the intelligence thing. Its how you use it, combative/argumentative/one-up’ing is a pain in the ass… from a man or a woman.
    I’ve enjoyed talking for hours about nitty-gritty details of this or that lab technique or what would make this or that run better or how to increase the yield from this or that with my fiance. Shes great to bounce ideas off of, this doesn’t make her more attractive but it does make her far more pleasant to be around. If she was a bitch about it she’d be out in a second.

    However VD has a point. Most smart women are arrogant.
    I’m thinking of my sister here, shes a solid genius level IQ with mathematics/calculus or w/e it is they use in engineering… most arrogant bitch to talk with though.

  • OffTheCuff

    Lok: “I went and tracked down the original FB thing out of curiosity. Its along the lines of “be a man”, “this is hot”, “their intimidated” etc. I believe thats the problem guys are having here. Women (in general not Watson or the ladies here) are trying to tell my penis when to stand-up. I find that offensive and ridculous.”

    Nailed it! You see, this particular picture is just one in a large series of copied Facebook postings that all fall into this category.

    1. The “Marilyn Monroe was a size 16″ post. Totally debunked, as she was a 36D with a 22 inch waist.
    2. The “when did this become hotter than this” meme. See the top pic for the original, with the responses below – http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-when-did-this-become-hotter-than-this-meme

    And is is just off the top of my head. It happens all the time! If I mined my FB newsfeed I could come up with tons of examples.

    Not surprisingly, these are only posted by very overweight women, demanding that the world find them more attractive. One of my friends is a former Miss NH, and another is a fitness instructor. Both are mothers of two, in good shape, and they’d never post that kind of stuff.

    Still, I can even tell the Miss NH is insecure about aging. She visited a few months back, and unprompted, nervously joked about her having a nice ass, despite having two kids.

  • Lokland

    @ Off the Cuff

    I don’t usually notice of course I’m not usually on fb to begin with. However there was one two or three weeks ago that caught my attention cause it was square at the top of my newsfeed.

    Had some “thick” women with something along the lines of:

    Who wants skin and bones.
    Men want some meat.

    General idea of the commenters was this,

    “WTF is wrong with you?”

    General reply was,

    “Its the truth.”

    Unbelievable, insultingand derogatory to three groups of people.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    I just thought of something else. You seem very… quick to judge people who you deem “assholes” lately. You won’t read the Rollo post because you think the guy’s a douche. Okay fair, but then do you really have a dog in the fight if you haven’t seen the original source? Are you able to separate the man from his message?

    Weirdly enough, I think you’re my male equivalent. I’m frustrated with sluts for a number of reasons (one being that they cheapen the market value of sex). You’re frustrated with assholes because, in a way, they allow for the market value to stay cheap. I’m sure you’re aware we’re on the same team.

  • Mr.A is Mr.A

    Wow. I just cannot “lurk through” this. Susan, put your shovel away, re-read what Mick C, Olive, and a number of your other commenters have said, and re-read Rollo’s *entire* article, without your anti-Rollo goggles on.

    You think you are hitting the triple-20 de-bunking his article, but all you’re doing is punching holes in Inspector Kemp’s tires. You *missed his point* focusing on Emma Watson.

    This is not worth more of your credibility. Stop and walk away.

  • Rum

    A pixie haircut works OK on a Pixie girl. I do not believe there is much sincere energy behind complaints that a teenager like Emma is doing something wrong when she tries to look like Audrey Hepburn in Breakfast at Tiffanies. Heck, I would like it if there was more of that loose in the world.
    The offense occurs when a fatty tries it. The effect is like what one sees over at “People of Walmart.com”. It is just wrong.
    Re: Bolick. How people rated her looks was 100% related to the amount of anony they had at the time. When they were on camera, of course they will follow the party line. In the wilderness of the blogosphere, there is no reason to lie. And a lot of the pushback against the idea of Bolick-is-so-hot came from, imho the fact that it was being imposed as if from above. The media was trying to declare as fact that all men should be lusting after her as if she were a tremendously valuable mating-prize. It was at this point that some of us felt free to blurt out that the King was (nearly) naked – that what we saw in front of us was a middle-aged woman with an angry face and thickening arms. We did not start it.

  • VD

    I don’t think it’s the IQ itself that is the problem. I think it’s what the woman decides to do with her IQ that is the problem. Most men I’ve dealt with haven’t had a problem with my intellect because I don’t use it as a combative force, for the most part. I don’t try to bust their balls or prove superiority when talking to them. I just like having fascinating conversations. I’ve had experiences where I’ve talked about a far out topic for hours with a guy, and the end result was him complimenting me on my brain and going on about how hard it is to find a girl who can talk about something else besides vapid topics.

    It’s both, although you are correct and the attitude is the larger problem. But consider this. If you’re dating a woman with an IQ of 80 and she says something stupid, you can simply say “you’re wrong” and she’ll usually accept it at face value. Tell that to a woman with an IQ of 130, and you not only have to conclusively prove to her that she’s wrong, but then deal with all of the various attempts to save face that she’ll subsequently produce because she prides herself on her intelligence. It is a massive pain in the ass. Trust me, the 80 IQ girls are much more fun and pleasant to date than the Mensa girls. Also, keep in mind that “talking about far out concepts” isn’t necessarily genuine intellectual activity, no matter how fascinating it is. Low-IQ stoners do that sort of thing all the time. I’m not impressed if you can regurgitate what one of your professors said about Thomas Aquinas, not unless you can correctly point out a flaw in his logic, or better yet, show me that you can construct a new argument using his structure. College-educated people in general, and women with degrees in particular, often confuse having heard about something with actually knowing it.

    The problem, I suspect, is that smart women are praised and coddled from an early age, and they seldom know how to gracefully handle getting their ass kicked. Even the smartest man has probably been pounded into the ground physically, if not mentally as well. So it doesn’t bother us much, because we expect to be wrong from time to time. It’s happened before, it will happen again, no big deal.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    VD,

    Furthermore, highly intelligent women tend to be very unstable as well as less intellectual than their male counterparts; the smartest woman I ever dated ended up in a mental ward by the time she was 25. Intelligent men simply aren’t looking for intellectual companionship from women the way most intelligent women are, they’re more concerned about intellectual compatibility.

    This is really interesting. I was always the brainy kid in school, and I’ve struggled with depression on and off since middle school (episodic depression, not chronic). I think it’s extremely difficult to be an intelligent woman and function like a normal person, and perhaps it’s because of that social component (intellectual companionship) men don’t feel the need to seek out.

    I have this private blog I’ve been writing in since 2004, when I was 15. My writing is generally intelligent and thoughtful, and then you hit this section when I go to college where the intellectual quality of the writing decreases significantly. There’s no punctuation or capitalization, and the writing itself is sort of obnoxious and self-absorbed. I suspect I was going through a stage where I was trying to dumb myself down to fit in with my herd (unconsciously, of course). And it was working well. A few months ago, my BF told me I had spent too much time with “stupid people” and that I was becoming like them, so much so that he felt like we couldn’t connect. I immediately realized he was right, and started trying to make a conscious effort to foster intelligence (read the newspapers, write, start looking for professors who would team up with me on research, etc.).

    And the result? It’s incredibly lonely, and I’m back to being miserable again. It’s like I can’t win unless I build several different personas, and only my BF and my family get to the know the real one. It’s bad for my mental well-being, trying to be several people at once.

  • WarmWoman

    @Escoffier : “I don’t know, maybe it’s an age thing, but then again, I don’t recall being attracted to slutty clothes even in my hormone-addled youth.”

    Like obviously attracts like. When I was in highschool and college, slutty guys and player types loved the slutty girls. The quality guys that were looking for LTR’s avoided those girls like the plague, and went for the women that waited.

  • Lokland

    @ VD

    Your correct, but thats not something that comes with the intelligence its something women in general have been told from birth. “Your always right.”

    Try telling a woman how to be a better parent. I dare you.
    You’ll get the same response even if what your saying is correct.

    “Women know better” could properly describe the entire mind-set of current Western civilization. That doesn’t mean that intelligence is linked to showing you know better.

    If a woman considers herself a good mother (IQ 80) she will defend her mothering abilities as vehemently as the IQ 130 woman talking about philosophy (Aquinas is philosophy, right?). You can aslo find an IQ 80 woman who can take constructive criticism of her parenting style without skipping a beat. Same for the high IQ lady.

    Pleasantness is more related to how dettached a women is from outside influences then her IQ.
    As well as how often that topic is critiqued. A bad mother who is never critiqued could very well be a pleasant wife. (Bad example but it gets the point across.)

    I will concede however most smart women are (in general) bitchy.

  • http://www.beinghappy.me M

    IQ is variable to a certain extent. As with most things in life the “use it or lose it” rule applies. While people can be born with a propensity for problem-solving, IQ develops most when mental skills are practiced. Therefore people with higher IQs tend to be people who enjoy problem-solving. Since people who develop skills usually pursue those skills even further, they are also likely to be better educated. That means spending quite a bit of time in places where feminism is de rigueur.

    So women with higher IQs have a likelihood of being used to problem-solving (i.e., arguing) and feminist ideals. It’s not the intellect that is the issue, so much as the application and environment. IMO.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    But consider this. If you’re dating a woman with an IQ of 80 and she says something stupid, you can simply say “you’re wrong” and she’ll usually accept it at face value. Tell that to a woman with an IQ of 130, and you not only have to conclusively prove to her that she’s wrong, but then deal with all of the various attempts to save face that she’ll subsequently produce because she prides herself on her intelligence.

    There are two separate issues here, I think. One is the issue of actual IQ. The other is the issue of self-confidence. Think about it: a confident woman can admit she’s wrong from time to time… her status is not riding on her ability to be “right.” The problem is that you have a lot of high IQ women who also aren’t sure of their value, so they try to base that value on IQ (thanks, feminism). There are women with high IQs who don’t give two shits about status and value, they just want to have interesting discussions. My mom is one of them.

    The problem, I suspect, is that smart women are praised and coddled from an early age, and they seldom know how to gracefully handle getting their ass kicked.

    This is true. My school teachers coddled me all through high school. My piano teachers, however, kicked my ass. When I got to college, I took piano lessons for the first year, and I met a girl who said our piano teacher made her cry. I’m sure I looked at her like she’d sprouted antlers… frankly, I didn’t think our piano teacher kicked my ass hard enough. My piano teacher in high school used to yell at me regularly. It made me want to work harder.

  • http://www.beinghappy.me M

    This post is just an experiment to see if I can nix the italics!

  • Rum

    Bolick is selling books and magazine covers to women buyers. Almost exclusively. Her story flatters them. Do not expect to find much of anything else in such places. It is like the whole genre of relationship-advice lit. It is 90-plus percent consumed by women and so it is just one long repeat of “You are perfect in every way except that you are too humble and love more than he deserves.”
    Bolick is just selling emo-porn to girls and women. And yes, that can pay the bills.

  • Sassy6519

    @ VD

    It’s both, although you are correct and the attitude is the larger problem. But consider this. If you’re dating a woman with an IQ of 80 and she says something stupid, you can simply say “you’re wrong” and she’ll usually accept it at face value. Tell that to a woman with an IQ of 130, and you not only have to conclusively prove to her that she’s wrong, but then deal with all of the various attempts to save face that she’ll subsequently produce because she prides herself on her intelligence. It is a massive pain in the ass. Trust me, the 80 IQ girls are much more fun and pleasant to date than the Mensa girls.

    Well, if a person tells someone else that they are wrong about something, I think they should at least be able to back up their claims. Calling someone out over something and expecting them to take it at face value, not to mention being upset if they don’t instantly take your word as law, seems like a lazy way to have a discourse with someone. Telling a woman she is wrong and expecting her to blindly agree without contention seems like an owner/pet relationship instead of a person/person relationship.

    Anyway, I think the key is finding a woman who is smart and is okay with being wrong as well. I’ve been corrected on things I’ve said before by both men and women, and I don’t get upset. In all honesty, I’d rather I learn the truth than to perpetuate incorrect information.

    No one likes to deal with people who get severely bent out of shape when they are wrong. It’s the same way for women. I’d bet most women don’t like pretentious know-it-all men who get their boxers in a bunch when they are corrected about something. I’ve met plenty of these types, since I prefer to associate myself with men of similar intelligence to my own, and I’ve literally wanted to clobber them. Trying to tell that type of men that they are wrong about something is about as pleasant as a wire hanger to the eye. No one is right about everything. It’s about finding a person who is humble enough to be wrong without throwing a tantrum or pity party.

    Also, keep in mind that “talking about far out concepts” isn’t necessarily genuine intellectual activity, no matter how fascinating it is. Low-IQ stoners do that sort of thing all the time. I’m not impressed if you can regurgitate what one of your professors said about Thomas Aquinas, not unless you can correctly point out a flaw in his logic, or better yet, show me that you can construct a new argument using his structure. College-educated people in general, and women with degrees in particular, often confuse having heard about something with actually knowing it.

    I’m aware of all of this. Whenever I have discussions with people, it’s not about simple regurgitation of facts or ideas. It’s about going much deeper down the rabbit hole and drawing one’s own conclusions and thoughts about the topic at hand. A parrot can repeat things it has heard. A smart human can make new connections and inferences based on information. That’s the difference.

  • WarmWoman

    @Sassy

    “Anyway, I think the key is finding a woman who is smart and is okay with being wrong as well. ”

    A person that can’t admit that they’re wrong or can’t admit their mistakes is a huge red flag to me. Every single controlling person that I’ve met is a know-it-all and can’t accept other people’s opinions/ideas.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    It’s a soft thing that lives in the ocean inside a shell is creates for itself.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    Ah! Im not one. It had to do more with a savior / superman / codependent complex

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    My main reason for avoiding Rollo is that all I know of him, aside from what he posts here now and again, is that he’s got two posts about young female pop celebrities. Reading and posting at HUS is enough of a distraction for me. The last thing I want is to learn about the lives of media celebrities while reading assholes who excrete their waste into the echo chamber that’s known as the manosphere.

    So I hang around Sue’s, visit your blog now and then, stop by Yohami’s, see what Bellita’s writing about now and then, check out what’s new with Badger…. but confine myself to that.

    I’m not tired of men. All of my best friends have penises. Just none of them are Rollo.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    You won’t read the Rollo post because you think the guy’s a douche. Okay fair, but then do you really have a dog in the fight if you haven’t seen the original source? Are you able to separate the man from his message?

    I haven’t been “fighting” Rollo at all, have I?

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    Alright it’s cool. That’s what I limit myself to as well, for the most part. It’s just that, in this particular instance, Susan had a post about another post. Rather than just take her word for it, I went to read the original post, and found it interesting. But you did not read the original post, and when I did and commented, you hinted that I have a tolerance for “assholes,” while picking apart women I have a problem with. Maybe I do. Feel free to psychoanalyze me, I’m all ears. I’ve got a weird history.

    But I’m switching the frame (see what I did thar?), I’m talking about you now. You have an interesting aversion to assholes. Maybe you don’t have time to read Rollo… that’s cool. But why build an opinion on him based on what you’ve read here, rather than read one of his posts and base your judgment on that? Why not just stay neutral if you don’t feel like reading his stuff?

    I haven’t been “fighting” Rollo at all, have I?

    Nope, but you did say he’s a dick and you have no time for him. I’m just asking the question: is this academic or personal? And I ask that question knowing full well that I get personal.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    This is getting ridiculous. First you say there are no incentives for women to seduce -putting the blame outside women, hey, women dont know how to be sexy without slutting it up because they dont have a chance- now you change your basic argument to the opposite:

    It is female intrasexual competition that dictates how women display their sexuality, and that is what has dictated fashions forever.

    Therefore…women have directly controlled what men find sexy over time. And if they went back to dressing in floor length dresses with bustles, men would go back to admiring ankles.

    No. Competition is done towards a goal. In intrasexual competition in women the goal is a man. And ultimately the man has all the power there. Women are competing for HIM, he has the final word on who gets it all.

    And males compete all day long and form hierarchies, but they do it towards a goal, and the goal is a female, and ultimately the woman has all the power there and decides who gets it all.

    So beauty standards change over time. So what?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami

      You’re not making any sense. Women’s clothing norms directly reflect female competition for males as a whole, not one individual male. Clothes have gotten a lot sluttier since the 90s, which coincides with the start of hookup culture. The women police one another when it’s in their best interests. A woman dressing slutty 50 years ago had nothing to fear from men, the social ostracization came from women who refused to admit her to polite society. Today, the opposite is true. So many women dress this way, that a woman may be shunned for dressing modestly. Women directly control amongst themselves who can show what.

      As Jesus pointed out, what is sexy varies by culture. Bare breasts are not particularly sexy in some tribal societies. Hell, men on French beaches don’t get hardons looking at them. They’ve become considerably less sexy in the U.S. When the pendulum swings back, and it will swing back, female sexuality will be restrained again, and women will cover up. What men find sexy will change.

      Attraction triggers for both sexes are highly malleable. Before the sexual revolution, women didn’t like douches so much. Which brings me to my next point.

      Find yourself and fix it.

      I’ll give you the benefit of not being a native English speaker, but your giving me orders, much less in this rude tone, will not fly. Put your dick away or go away.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    I wasn’t trying to analyze you.

    As for me, when it’s clear that someone (whether it be Doug, Rollo, or FemEx) has no interest in debating ideas, then I refuse to engage that person on an ideological level. I’ll discuss the ideas presented in Rollo’s post with Mike C or Yohami, but not with Rollo himself, since Rollo isn’t interested in discussion.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    And right now the fashion standard is ruled by gay men and their ideal of beauty, which is off sync with what hetero guys actually find attractive.

    Re: beauty standards. In places where there´s no food, being obese is attractive. You want to eat, right? In places where there´s plenty of food, being lean is attractive. When times are rough, being resilient and a fighter is attractive. In times of abundance, having a free spirit and the wonder to explore many things and have fun is attractive.

    So what.

    At no times one gender can force attractiveness on the other. If it´s not attractive, it´s not. Period. Valid for men and women and gays and what not. Attractiveness is in the eye of of the person attracted.

    This “I decide what´s attractive” is like a drunken PUA fallacy. You´re making no sense and you should know better.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan, check Vox´s post about intelligent women. Find yourself and fix it.

  • VD

    “Well, if a person tells someone else that they are wrong about something, I think they should at least be able to back up their claims. Calling someone out over something and expecting them to take it at face value, not to mention being upset if they don’t instantly take your word as law, seems like a lazy way to have a discourse with someone. Telling a woman she is wrong and expecting her to blindly agree without contention seems like an owner/pet relationship instead of a person/person relationship.”

    You completely missed the point. It’s not a question of being able to back up one’s claims – you have no reason to know that I happen to be notorious for doing so in mind-numbing detail – but having the ability to choose between being required to do so or not every single time there is a difference of opinion. The vast majority of the time, men don’t want “to have a discourse” with their wives and girlfriends while the same women who don’t dare to question the most outrageously ahistorical and inaccurate nonsense emitted by a 105-IQ Womyn’s Studies TA will nevertheless dispute a smart man’s reference to something that happened before she met him on the sole basis of partial information he previously provided her.

    If I am an expert on something and you don’t know anything about it, either you’d better ask some very intelligent questions or take my word as law. That doesn’t make you a pet, it makes you sensible. And not doing so makes you a bloody cretin. The fact that a man CAN deliver a two-hour monologue explaining why his girlfriend’s position makes no sense does not mean that he wishes to spend his time in that manner. Add to that the likelihood that a smart girlfriend is usually going to bend over backward moving the goalposts, explaining that she didn’t say what she just said, that X actually means Y, and why does it really matter who is right anyhow, and anyway his need to always be right is indicative of a small penis… who needs that?

    Some men will simply hold their tongue. Others, more intelligent, will simply date a little further down the IQ ladder in search of a woman who is willing to live with the idea that a man who was right the previous ten times is probably correct this time too.

  • Sassy6519

    @ VD

    I think the difference is that you and I are basically in agreement, but we are confusing the details. When I say that a man should back up his claims, I don’t expect a two hour lecture or argument. I don’t know what women you have been in the company of, but that sounds very tiresome. Having said that, there is a way to have a discourse with someone that doesn’t result in irritation or long drawn out conversations. It usually involves two rational and even tempered individuals. If one or both people don’t posses those two qualities, no discourse will ever be pleasant. Talking to a brick wall isn’t fun for anyone.

    I think it’s very possible to have legitimate conversations/discourses with intelligent women without a power struggle. Like I said before, the key is finding a woman who is humble enough to be wrong gracefully. I will admit that the probability of finding that quality may be lower in women of high intelligence, or either gender for that matter. Pride typically gets in the way.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,

    I wasn’t trying to analyze you.

    Could’ve fooled me. :-P

    Funny how quick you are to be critical of girls you have problems with but are incredibly tolerant of an asshole like Rollo.

    Not at all? You sure?

    As for me, when it’s clear that someone (whether it be Doug, Rollo, or FemEx) has no interest in debating ideas, then I refuse to engage that person on an ideological level. I’ll discuss the ideas presented in Rollo’s post with Mike C or Yohami, but not with Rollo himself, since Rollo isn’t interested in discussion.

    I think you’re missing my point a bit. I don’t think you need to engage with Rollo in order to have an intelligent discussions with Mike C and Yohami (or anyone, really). Let’s keep the discussion about what it’s about: you didn’t read the post.

    You are right. When Rollo stops by, he’s not interested in discussion. He’s interested in making Susan look dumb. I ignored his “clarification” for a reason, because he’s being a douche, he’s on the defensive. But his original post had some interesting points, regardless of whether he’s a douche.

  • J

    Lindsay–Thanks! Glad I could clarify…

    Ana–An elderly aunt of mine, who was actually pretty well off, went out looking like hell one day and paused in front of bakery to look at the goodies. After deciding that she didn’t need the excess calories, she walked away. An employee followed her down the street with a cup of coffee and a cinnamon bun. She was embarassed as hell, but it’s nice that some people still care.

  • J

    It’s very clear that those men are pushing back hard at the idea that women may choose not to display their sexuality, or offer an opinion on what they think is sexy. There’s a strong “go right ahead, you’ll get what you deserve” vibe to the whole thread.

    It’s almost as though some feel that a woman is obligated to display her sexuality.

  • Jackie

    @VD (#579)
    Hi VD,

    I apologize if I am missing the tenor of the conversation– Isn’t another option to screen for EQ (Emotional Intelligence) and let the IQ fall where it may? A person with a high EQ would understand enough about social dynamics, subtlety and subtext before speaking. They would know when they are able to contribute to the conversation in a positive way.

    Not all people with high EQ have IQ, and vice versa. But, like a Venn diagram, there is a small overlap between the two (in my experience, at least). The intelligent gentleman in question may be happiest with someone from that scenario: High EQ, high IQ.

    Thank you for considering my perspective, VD. Kindest regards–

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Olive, true friends are hard to come by, for anyone. My husband had a difficult time with male friendship, too. He was taken advantage of for his kindness. He no longer speaks to any of his high school / college friends.

    It took me until late 20s to really get into deeper friendships with women. A lot of the subtle competiveness goes away once women get married and/or get into stable long-term relationships. Likewise with men, I think.

  • Wudang

    “My piano teachers, however, kicked my ass”

    Even though I think there is a clear gender divide with regards to codling I feel like society has codled me my whole life as well. I think that has been horrible for me and made me far too prone to feel sorry for myself, give up and not require enough of myself. When I get back into martial arts soon I am going to train at a different school than last time because the teacher there has the same atitudes a man would have back in the 50s with regards to working hard, not feeling sorry for yourself and actually DEMANDS something of you. Other places, and in my whole society, it is sort of impossible to fail. Everything is just fine and equally good anyway like we are all in second grade. He is one of only two men with real old school ideas about what it means to be a man that I have been able to locate in my country so I am looking him up.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Hope,

    It took me until late 20s to really get into deeper friendships with women. A lot of the subtle competiveness goes away once women get married and/or get into stable long-term relationships.

    I hoped this was the case, but Susan once said I haven’t seen anything until I’ve seen the Mommy Wars. :-(

    Likewise with men, I think.

    I don’t know. My brother has had the same friends since middle school… they’re all still really close, and they LAN together over holiday breaks when they’re all home. My BF, also, has a few friends he’s kept since elementary school. His best friend is a great guy, and they’ve been best friends since second grade. I’ve never had a friend like that.

  • Jackie

    @Olive (#562)

    Hi Olive!

    I am with you all the way on getting rid of the coddling, 1000%. I had a question about your piano teacher motivating at you be “yelling at you”– Can you explain what you mean? Did she say, Olive, you’re just not cutting it? Or literally YELL at you?

    I ask because all my teacher had to say to me was, Jackie, you’re not cutting it. And I took it so personally that I would practice and prepare like crazy. But if she would have ever yelled at me– or even raise her voice– I would have been crushed and probably cried. :(

    I am waaay too sensitive, but yelling or anything based in anger has never worked with me. Just wondering :)

  • WarmWoman

    “I can’t tell you how many times men have argued here that all a woman has to do to get sex is walk into a bar and yell “I wanna fuck!” The overriding theme in the manosphere is that women can get sex any time they want it”.

    I’m going off-topic, but I often wonder if men know that a female won’t be fully satisfied by just any random guy at the bar that’s willing to f*ck her.

    Sure, women can get sex easily. BUT, the question is are you even going to be attracted to the men that’s willing to take up your offer? Even the promiscuous women I know are selective in who they have casual sex. The attraction and the ability to be good in bed has to be there.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Wudang,

    Other places, and in my whole society, it is sort of impossible to fail. Everything is just fine and equally good anyway like we are all in second grade. He is one of only two men with real old school ideas about what it means to be a man that I have been able to locate in my country so I am looking him up.

    Interesting. I’ve had two long-term piano teachers: my grandmother, who taught me for 10 years from the age of 5, and my high school teacher, who coached me through two half-recitals. Both of them were hardcore: rarely complimented me, constantly nitpicked my playing, and always tried to encourage improvement. Even though I haven’t touched a piano in several years, I’ll always thank them for helping me develop my work ethic. The education system doesn’t seem to value hard work anymore.

  • WarmWoman

    @Jackie

    I’m the same with yelling and criticiczing. It makes me feel worse, and then I doubt myself. I respond best to gentle and kind confrontation. Being nice and encouraging doesn’t mean you have to coddle.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Hi Jackie!
    This particular piano teacher was a man, and yes, he flat-out yelled at me when he knew I hadn’t practiced, or when I was doing something wrong. I probably peaked in ability when I was 16, when I was his student.

    I think I could handle him because I didn’t expect to be coddled when it came to music. My grandmother started teaching me when I was 5, and while she would never yell at me, she was never… satisfied. It didn’t matter if I played it well, it was just “okay.”

    That’s the kind of attitude that creates child prodigies (and my high school teacher taught a prodigy). There’s a lot of debate about whether prodigies burn out early… I wouldn’t know, I was never at that level.

  • Jackie

    @Anaca0na Cullen (#515)

    That is a hilarious story about being mistaken for a bum! :)

    I had something similar happen: I was in a different town for something; I didn’t know anyone and didn’t have a place to go during a 2 hour break. It was a sunny day, so I walked to a local park. Being a total weirdo, I felt like snoozing on the grass. A guy came up to me with $5, thinking I was *homeless* or desperate in some way.

    At the time, I was mortified (and asked a friend to sniff me upon my return, to see if I but now I gave off some kind of odor or look). But now I think it’s hilarious and vow to never fall asleep in public parks again. The End. :)

  • AM

    @SW

    “Women control male attraction cues by manipulating supply and demand. That is what is really making men upset here.”

    Not quite sure what you are getting at here. If you want to look at history, you can pick out a culture where women were very much covered up, sure, and yes men would be aroused by the flash of any skin, since they did not usually see any, fine. This is not breaking news.

    In the interest of fairness, let’s also point out the cultures where women customarily went around bare-chested, and note that men were able to reproduce quite fine in those societies as well, and unfortunately you can’t complain about young men popping viagra in those times.

    Let’s also stop to notice that those societies were generally quite patriarchal, and it was in fact the men who dictated to their daughters how to dress.

    I don’t think any man commentating here is saying he would prefer a world where every single woman is brazenly wearing the sluttiest clothes imaginable, so it’s strange to see someone like the ever-morally-superior Jesus Mahoney denounce the men for this position (actually perhaps not that strange after all).

    Here’s my bird’s eye view of the current “war between the sexes”. Both men and women are complaining there aren’t any good mates to be found (to different degrees I’d posit, but that’s a separate argument). Men are responding by “alpha-ing up” and learning “game” to try to leverage female hypergamy and attraction cues to become more desirable. Women are trying to redefine men’s attraction cues by posting examples of what they believe men should find sexy and discrediting men’s opinions on what men want.

    The men aren’t arguing that we wouldn’t find ankles sexy in a world where all women are completely covered up. We also aren’t arguing that modest dressing can be sexy. It is true that, in the society we live in, it will be far harder for a woman to rely on an outfit which revealingly accentuates her ankles to grab the attention of men, but multiple people have said there are many ways to be sexy while absolutely not looking slutty.

    All we are saying is Emma Watson (and AGAIN, who the real life Emma Watson is IRRELEVANT right now – we are using the fictional version of Emma Watson who is portrayed here as an EXAMPLE) and her attitude of “I know what’s sexy and it’s not what men say is sexy” is simply an undesirable attitude in a woman. It almost doesn’t matter how this is manifested (in this case, haircut and clothing). If she said “I think cursing loudly and introducing myself to people by farting is sexy”, she would get a similar reaction.

    The haircut and clothing thing is getting some additional attention just because it is a common outlet for women in our society who have the attitude that EW demonstrates (and not so much the farting).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @AM

      her attitude of “I know what’s sexy and it’s not what men say is sexy” is simply an undesirable attitude in a woman.

      So don’t date her! No one is asking you to embrace what you find undesirable. Let the market decide. I truly cannot fathom why men care what any one woman says about what she thinks is sexy. There are men who think their soul patches are sexy. Some of them even get girlfriends. Aren’t there enough people in the world that you can find a woman who agrees with your sense of what sexy is?

      Why should we police what anyone thinks is sexy? No one is trying to force men into a particular mold. If women are going crazy on facebook with feminist rants about men, who cares? The argument going on here is all about control, something that Rollo desperately wants men to wrest from women. But control over attraction cues in beyond the power of any individual – they shift over time for reasons including war, e.g. the flappers, the economy, disease and politics. Calling out Emma Watson is just silly and pointless.

  • Jackie

    @Olive
    Hey again Olive!

    That is awesome about giving half recitals as a teenager! WTG!

    As to your piano teacher– I think his method can be like rocket fuel: Amazing trajectory in the *very short term* but long term it just burns out. Because if there is no joy in what you are doing — if you are not playing for the sheer love of music and doing your absolute best to do justice to it– it won’t last.

    And having your grandma teach probably had a whole lot to do with you thriving under the method. It would be interesting to know what her childhood was like.

    My dad’s violin teacher used to hit him with the bow, glue thumbtacks on the violin’s neck (so if he collapsed his wrist, he would get the crap pricked out of him)– lots of mean disciplinarian stuff. :( It influenced my dad to be super gentle, though. And I am grateful for it. :)

    PS: I hope things are getting better on your friend quest. I know it’s hard. At least you can hang out here and talk with us, right? ;)
    I am having some success through my volunteer group (Humane Society), my book group and my church 20s-30s group. Tons of luck to you, Olive :)

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    It’s not about Team Man or Team Woman, it’s about Team Walsh and removing the obstacles that prevent us (Men and Women) from achieving our own (Team Erasmus?).

    Pretty sure you didn’t get there by damning Mr. Walsh’s gaze, nor is warmed-over second-wave feminism likely to be the key to your target audience’s hearts, however valid your point is. Slutting it up in public jumped the shark with the wardrobe malfunction, but politically correct uneasiness about even healthy male desire hasn’t yet, but badly needs to, for the good of men and women both.

    Yes, there is still a lingering 3-of-3 problem (referring to your brilliant 1-of-3 rule), but there is a 0-of-3 problem that is more acute for those of us attracted to high-achieving women and turned off by the 3-of-3′ers at the get go.

    The Ro’s (including Rollo) are the fever, and you’re the cure, so its natural that you wouldn’t get along. Still can’t get away with linguistically turning his point on its head. Leave that to the feministing types. BTW, you do your best writing when defending yourself, so hope you don’t shy away from controversial topics going forward even if it feels yucky.

    Just remember we wouldn’t be here (I’ll be relurking today, but will likely be unable to stop reading) if we hadn’t chosen you over literally everyone else in the world. And we ain’t chopped liver.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      Pretty sure you didn’t get there by damning Mr. Walsh’s gaze, nor is warmed-over second-wave feminism likely to be the key to your target audience’s hearts, however valid your point is.

      Well, Mr. Walsh is that dodo bird who fell for a woman with shortish hair, go figure.

      It is funny that I’ve had to evoke some feminist themes here. As I’ve often said, I’m all for gender equity. That rankles the Rollos of the world, who preach the intellectual, social and even sexual inferiority of women. That requires a response, in my view.

      Just remember we wouldn’t be here (I’ll be relurking today, but will likely be unable to stop reading) if we hadn’t chosen you over literally everyone else in the world.

      Thanks, it’s hard to please all of the people all of the time. Some readers here are also Ro fanboys, and some are downright haters. The controversial threads are always along the same lines – the battle of the sexes for control. Who gets to have sex, when do they get to have sex, what do they get in exchange for sex. Nothing new under the sun.

  • Jackie

    @WarmWoman (#591)

    Hi WW!

    It sounds like you and I may be similar: sensitive folks who tend to be empaths? For me, I try to treat constructive criticism the way I would like to be treated: Telling the truth from a point of empathy (love, if possible).

    One of my friends calls the method “The Sandwich”:
    Say what they did well (Bread)
    Say what they can do to improve/Make as impersonal as possible (PB&J)
    Say what they are continuing to do well (Bread)

    :)

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Jackie,

    As to your piano teacher– I think his method can be like rocket fuel: Amazing trajectory in the *very short term* but long term it just burns out. Because if there is no joy in what you are doing — if you are not playing for the sheer love of music and doing your absolute best to do justice to it– it won’t last.

    Interesting, I never thought about it at way. I always thought that my piano teachers (including my grandmother) helped make me harder on myself. But it’s true, I’ve always been a perfectionist, and while it makes for great output, it’s not sustainable.

    My dad’s violin teacher used to hit him with the bow, glue thumbtacks on the violin’s neck (so if he collapsed his wrist, he would get the crap pricked out of him)– lots of mean disciplinarian stuff.

    Ouch! I played violin too, but I was never very good. Maybe it’s because my teacher didn’t glue thumbtacks on the violin’s neck. :-P

    It’s interesting, a lot of really good musicians got that way because their teachers were incredibly hard on them. In my senior year I went to a piano recital given by the girl who thought that our first piano teacher was mean. She wasn’t very good, and I say that objectively… she had no sense of rhythmic consistency, and her musicality was off (plus, I think she was incredibly nervous, so she made a lot of mistakes). Unfortunately, in order to be a performer, you have to be practically flawless, and that takes constant repetition, self-motivation, and confidence. The world of music is cut-throat, and I think it takes a special personality and a lot of talent to survive it. In the end, it wasn’t for me.

    PS: I hope things are getting better on your friend quest. I know it’s hard. At least you can hang out here and talk with us, right?
    I am having some success through my volunteer group (Humane Society), my book group and my church 20s-30s group. Tons of luck to you, Olive

    Thanks, you’re a gem. :-)

  • OffTheCuff

    Nicely said, Jesus. I spend my time debating with people who have the ability to concede a point occasionally, and discover a new perspective. It doesn’t take much to say “wow, I never thought of that”. Those who outright refuse all approaches are very obvious, as they have a bulletproof demeanor that disallows even *approaching* a concession.

    That’s a great way to exert power (think George Bush or Amanda Marcotte) but it’s no way to actually learn anything. The people I really respect here, all of them, have changed their viewpoint, even if just slightly, by a cohesive argument by the opposite sex. Where else is such a intersex dialog even taking place?

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Why did you post your own picture, Susan? What for? It really doesn’t add anything to the story. Narcissism?

    Hardly. As I said to Rollo, the intention was to be self-effacing. And it worked, most of the comments have been negative, haha. I posted it as a matter of full-disclosure – I’m weighing in on the question of sexy, knowing full well that men would not consider me so in that picture. And I’m fine with that – sexy was absolutely not what I was going for in that headshot or in my professional acting roles. The short hair suited me very well for a couple of years.”

    This was a particularly nasty neg. Not only did you reply, you even attempted to qualify, added in a nervous haha, felt to need to be self-effacing, etc…

    We’re. Not. Making. This. Stuff. Up.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desi

      This was a particularly nasty neg. Not only did you reply, you even attempted to qualify, added in a nervous haha, felt to need to be self-effacing, etc…

      We’re. Not. Making. This. Stuff. Up.

      I think Glasses is a woman, actually, just being a biddy.

  • Jackie

    @Susan (#573)

    This was the song that popped into my head when I read your comment…

    In olden days, a glimpse of stocking
    Was looked on as something shocking.
    But now, God knows,
    Anything goes.
    Good authors too who once knew better words
    Now only use four-letter words
    Writing prose.
    Anything goes.
    If driving fast cars you like,
    If low bars you like,
    If old hymns you like,
    If bare limbs you like,
    If Mae West you like,
    Or me undressed you like,
    Why, nobody will oppose.
    When ev’ry night the set that’s smart is in-
    Truding in nudist parties in
    Studios.
    Anything goes.

    “Anything Goes” was written by Cole Porter in 1934, by the way. :)

  • Jackie

    @Susan (#573)

    This is *also* OT, but you may find this interesting:

    During the Victorian Era, when ankles *were* really a daring turn-on, there was still a TON of prostitution (esp. of young girls, children really) and the same stuff that going on today. Just on the super down-low, with lotsa hypocrisy. Have you ever read _The Crimson Petal and the White_?

    “Historians now regard the Victorian era as a time of many contradictions, such as the widespread cultivation of an outward appearance of dignity and restraint together with the prevalence of social phenomena such as prostitution and child labour. ”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_morality

    PS: I would like to see some balance, which hasn’t really entered the discussion yet. There has got to be a happy medium between slutty and a burkha that our society can’t seem to find. :(

  • Desiderius

    Mike C,

    “was telling a guy in a chat the other day how it really is so easy for women and they just overcomplicate it. Do the best you can with God gave you physically. And then just be pleasant and fun. That’s it. That’s enough to generate some initial attraction.”

    Easy’s for the slackers and losers in the slow class.

    They’ve been raised like men, and now they’re looking for their rite of passage. The harder the better.

  • Desiderius

    Jackie,

    “There has got to be a happy medium between slutty and a burkha that our society can’t seem to find. :(”

    That blown-up picture of Emma Watson upthread works for me.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Contrary to what Olive claims, his main point is that women are not the arbiters of sexiness.

    Rollo had two points:
    1) Women don’t get to say what men find sexy.
    2) Women have lost the ability to be sexy without being slutty, so it’s slutty or nothing.

    I don’t disagree with either of those points.

  • Jackie

    @Desiderius (#604)

    Cool! :)
    How can that — a more modest look– gain a foothold in our society?

  • Mike C

    It’s almost as though some feel that a woman is obligated to display her sexuality.

    Ehhhhh. That’s not it, and I am tiring of having to repeat myself. The core issue isn’t an obligation to display sexuality. Display whatever the fuck you want. Look like a Hobbit from LOTR if you want.

    What you don’t get to do is state or imply or shame or whatever that men, “real men” should find your very unsexy look sexy. And for God’s sake, if you choose this route then don’t say one damn word about men not showing any interest in you.

    Why is this point so difficult comprehend?

  • Lokland

    @ Olive

    “Rollo had two points:
    1) Women don’t get to say what men find sexy.
    2) Women have lost the ability to be sexy without being slutty, so it’s slutty or nothing.”

    No Olive.

    Women control what men find sexy.
    Women just choose not to be seductive, they’d rather be incorrigible sluts for the alpha than seduce the beta.

    Don’t be ridculous.

    (Drooling sarcasm.)

  • Mike C

    VD’s comments on intelligence are 110% spot on. ALL OF IT.

    I’ll give you a perfect example of this dynamic. There was a thread awhile back where Malia who I’m sure fancies herself and intelligent woman made an absolutely absurdly stupid comment about statistics. Both Yohami and I called her out jokingly, and then she came back with just more and more nonsense even when I presented my higher level of expertise on statistics and quantitative stuff.

    I can’t imagine dating an “intelligent” woman like her. It literally would be an insufferable chore.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I’m pretty sure the girl’s not trying to be totally asexual.

    Well I think you mentioned you don’t follow pop culture but I do and I am a potterhead too and Emma anti sex campaign has been an issue for a while. She refuses to talk about Hermione and Ron as a couple and deviate the question all the time as an actress this is an important arc on her character and something she knows many fans want and yet she just says no. I already mentioned the crossing her legs in premieres when posing. I already followed another young starlet uncomfortable with the sexualization of her persona: Kristen Kreuk (she even had a body double to do some sexy Lana shots and changed managers when he signed her up for a sexy photoshoot she wasn’t comfortable with, still her other photoshots are warm and inviting) even though we knew she wasn’t comfortable with the sex symbol image she never acted cold or anti sex and she also cut her hair. She was giddy and happy and warm about it and twittered to heaven’s above. Totally the opposite of ice queen Watson here or everywhere. So I might be reading her wrong but I do think she is showing more about her own sexual attitude than just rejecting out of pure principle. Of course I might be wrong, time will tell.

    Anacaona (sort of)
    ??? The only critique I had of your technique is that you are labeling friends every person with boobs that is friendly towards you, which makes as more sense than calling every man interested on you boyfriend. You are a friendship slut and HUS is the place were sluts come to die remember :p. I don’t think you have any other particular defect you are just so desperate for friendship that you forgot that people have to earn your trust first to be called friends and that is not your fault that is Team Woman propaganda weighing on you. Sorry if I came across as blaming you.

    Tell that to a woman with an IQ of 130, and you not only have to conclusively prove to her that she’s wrong, but then deal with all of the various attempts to save face that she’ll subsequently produce because she prides herself on her intelligence.

    My golden rule is never date and debate. That is what God created Internet for :p.

    It’s bad for my mental well-being, trying to be several people at once.
    Why? I’m at least seven people and I find it better for my well being, I’m a little crazy though :p

    J

    I know that is what I though people here still care it was a nice although hilarious surprise. One of the things I want to do when I get more money is to open a homeless reformation center to feed and clothe the homeless but also to help them to become part of society again so is good to know I might find people that will be willing to join my cause at some point in time. :)

    At the time, I was mortified (and asked a friend to sniff me upon my return, to see if I but now I gave off some kind of odor or look). But now I think it’s hilarious and vow to never fall asleep in public parks again. The End.

    Heh funny I also though it was hilarious hubby told me that he knew he stopped looking like a homeless person when homeless people started to ask him for change. :p

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      British actresses are far less inclined to parade their sexuality than American actresses are. They’re also generally much more thoroughly trained and more serious about their craft. They’re professionals and wish to be taken as such. Also, in the UK, good looks are not a particular requirement for acting work or even fame, so there’s less parading of flesh in general. British actresses do not attention whore in the same way, generally speaking.

  • Mike C

    Rollo had two points:
    1) Women don’t get to say what men find sexy.
    2) Women have lost the ability to be sexy without being slutty, so it’s slutty or nothing.

    Yes. It. Really. Is. That. Simple.

    Everything else is just filibustering and dissembling.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Anacaona,

    The only critique I had of your technique is that you are labeling friends every person with boobs that is friendly towards you.

    That’s what I meant. :-P Just that the problem is I find friends in all the wrong places. So the problem is with me (regardless of whether it’s Team Woman propaganda or a personal issue). I’m working on another post about my weird split personality though, I’ll post it soon.

    Why? I’m at least seven people and I find it better for my well being, I’m a little crazy though :p

    I really think it’s personality. Some people feel like they can be a bunch of different people, I just want to be one person. So splitting my personality makes me die a little inside.

  • Mike C

    PS: I would like to see some balance, which hasn’t really entered the discussion yet. There has got to be a happy medium between slutty and a burkha that our society can’t seem to find.

    I think the 1 out of 3 or 2 out of 3 rule makes sense. 0 out of 3 says don’t look at me in sexual way while 3 out of 3 is slutty.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think the 1 out of 3 or 2 out of 3 rule makes sense. 0 out of 3 says don’t look at me in sexual way while 3 out of 3 is slutty.

      And I made up the rule to advise women how to land a good man without seeming slutty. However, I respect the right of every woman to show zero body if she chooses. And the right of every woman to show 3 out of 3, though I hold women responsible for risking their safety when they choose to do this.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Rollo had two points:
    1) Women don’t get to say what men find sexy.
    2) Women have lost the ability to be sexy without being slutty, so it’s slutty or nothing.

    At the risk of getting kicked out of here. I cosign this and agree. I don’t particularly like or follow Rollo “Guerilla communication” style, but that is beside this two points.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Women have lost the ability to be sexy without being slutty, so it’s slutty or nothing.

      Wow, Anacaona and Olive agree? I could have sworn you’d both expressed enjoying sex with your SOs. When and how did you lose the ability to be sexy?

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    At the risk of getting kicked out of here. I cosign this and agree. I don’t particularly like or follow Rollo “Guerilla communication” style, but that is beside this two points.

    Hooray! That’s +1 for “Team Woman playing for Team Man” today. :-P

    Kidding, kidding.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I really think it’s personality. Some people feel like they can be a bunch of different people, I just want to be one person. So splitting my personality makes me die a little inside.

    Could be I want to clarify that one of the things all my personalities have that all of them love writing and my husband. But he had to conquer all of them. Poor guy is a saint I had a particular one that almost made me break my engagement, now they are all in his side, even over me (there is a me just tiny one) those bitches :p

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Hooray! That’s +1 for “Team Woman playing for Team Man” today.

    We are so going to get banned you know? :p

  • Mike C

    Men are responding by “alpha-ing up” and learning “game” to try to leverage female hypergamy and attraction cues to become more desirable. Women are trying to redefine men’s attraction cues by posting examples of what they believe men should find sexy and discrediting men’s opinions on what men want.

    This is an interesting point. I think this point gets at why frankly I am getting sort of pissed off at much of this discussion.

    Any former AFC beta type guy who has taken the red pill/learned Game has put in the very real hard mental work of learning about female attraction triggers…what makes a man “sexy”. Once he learns about them, he goes through the acceptance stage of realizing he has been lied to his all life. After that, he gets down to business of making the necessary changes to his personality, status, etc. Its a difficult process.

    In contrast, the overall gist with this is the women saying “fuck all that”. I’m not accepting shit and I’m not changing shit…I’m just going to try and persuade, shame, force men to accept my current state of unsexy as sexy. It smacks of entitlement and laziness.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m just going to try and persuade, shame, force men to accept my current state of unsexy as sexy.

      Has this ever been done successfully? I don’t think we need to worry about an epidemic.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Poor guy is a saint I had a particular one that almost made me break my engagement, now they are all in his side, even over me (there is a me just tiny one) those bitches :p

    LOL this cracked me up! Your hubby sounds like such a winner, honestly like my BF. Today I was expressing my frustration with friend-finding, and how I’m so thankful that he’s such a good friend. I told him we should go find a hidey hole together and hide from the world, but he didn’t like that idea. :-P He deserves a medal for dealing with my craziness.

    We are so going to get banned you know? :p

    Pssh nahh, we’re on Susan’s blogroll. She can’t ban us now, mwahahahaha.

    Susan,
    I hope you’re not disappointed in the fact that I’m not agreeing on this one. In case you had any doubts, I’m totally still on your team.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      I hope you’re not disappointed in the fact that I’m not agreeing on this one. In case you had any doubts, I’m totally still on your team.

      Not in the least! Dissent is fine, more than fine, actually. It’s the lifeblood of the blog in some ways. It’s the way people express themselves that makes the difference, and you always express yourself in a positive and constructive way. I appreciate it very much.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    LOL this cracked me up! Your hubby sounds like such a winner,

    Heh hubby and I have a very “the voices are not your friends” sense of humour so we totally joke around this like nothing. If we were rich our kids will be growing in an Adam’s family kind of household…poor bastards. :p

    I hope you’re not disappointed in the fact that I’m not agreeing on this one. In case you had any doubts, I’m totally still on your team.

    Likewise

  • Lindsay

    @VD:

    That’s fine, and I respect your opinion. I enjoy talking about the Austrian Business Cycle, but it doesn’t come up on here too often. If you feel I have pedestrian intellectual instincts, that is also fine, and perhaps you’re right. I am aware that outside of mathematics and computer science, this is the case. It was a struggle for me to finish college and even high school due to a learning disorder, and while I was tested at 4SD above, I was not able to apply it to most academic pursuits. I still can’t, so I leave those to the people who have the ability and the desire. I’m not PhD or even Master’s material and I’m ok with that. In my case, intelligence was a waste in an academic setting, but how lucky for those who can apply it and harness it for the greater good.

    Obviously, I am not for most people, and certainly not for you, and I won’t argue either point. I’m not interested in changing attraction cues, as I stated several pages back, so best of luck to you and yours in enjoying life and finding what you’re looking for. It sounds like your wife is fantastic, so godspeed to both of you.

  • WarmWoman

    @Jackie

    I know you mentioned having a narcissistic family member (your grandmother?), as have I.

    I find that survivors of N tend to be highly empathic and sensitive, which is a good thing. The cons of being sensitive is that things can affect us more easily than those that are able to let go.

  • WarmWoman

    Susan,

    “Attraction triggers for both sexes are highly malleable. Before the sexual revolution, women didn’t like douches so much. Which brings me to my next point.”

    You probably talked about this before, but what would be the process to change your attraction triggers?

    Due to some of us with effed up childhoods, our lovemaps prone us to people that we don’t want to be in LTR’s with. I’ve been trying to find information on how to change that, but haven’t found much.

  • Lokland

    “The argument going on here is all about control, … wants men to wrest from women.”

    Is this in some way a bad thing? I would by no means call it a good thing but its a step in the direction of equality.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Is this in some way a bad thing? I would by no means call it a good thing but its a step in the direction of equality.

      I actually agree with you. What I object to is the zero sum approach. I believe that women actually want men to have more control, but they will never cede it in the way Rollo proposes.

  • AM

    @ SW

    Fair enough. I don’t expect my posts to change Emma Watson’s views – in fact, I don’t expect them to change anyone’s views really. I’ve found it’s extremely rare to truly convince anyone about anything through discussions/arguments.

    And I suppose, as you said, I should not police what anyone thinks is sexy. All f ine.

    By the same thinking, though, why do you care if other people declare they do not find Emma Watson’s attitude sexy? Whether she is one woman or many woman isn’t so important – you offered her up as a topic of discussion, and that’s what is happening. Would you prefer if the men just didn’t express their reactions to her?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @AM

      By the same thinking, though, why do you care if other people declare they do not find Emma Watson’s attitude sexy? Whether she is one woman or many woman isn’t so important – you offered her up as a topic of discussion, and that’s what is happening. Would you prefer if the men just didn’t express their reactions to her?

      I don’t care if men find her sexy. Not in the least. I thought Rollo was beastly to her, but I objected to his extrapolating from an out of context quote to claim that virtually all women no longer understand how to arouse a man. I don’t believe it’s true. I also think she’s free to define sexy however she wants to, and have been truly perplexed by the pushback on that point.

      I also was curious to know whether men agree that “slutty is always sexy.” The answers to that question were mixed.

  • Lindsay

    @Olive:
    This is really interesting. I was always the brainy kid in school, and I’ve struggled with depression on and off since middle school (episodic depression, not chronic). I think it’s extremely difficult to be an intelligent woman and function like a normal person, and perhaps it’s because of that social component (intellectual companionship) men don’t feel the need to seek out.

    And the result? It’s incredibly lonely, and I’m back to being miserable again. It’s like I can’t win unless I build several different personas, and only my BF and my family get to the know the real one. It’s bad for my mental well-being, trying to be several people at once.

    I didn’t realize you were so young. Best of luck to you in college. I’m sure you’ll do very well.

    I relate to much of what you’ve said as well. It’s been asserted upthread that women aren’t familiar with being pounded into the ground physically and mentally, but my experience has been otherwise. I’m not sure what it’s like to be raised in a coddling environment showered with praise, and perhaps that’s for the best. I like to think it’s given me a realistic outlook. The tack I’ve taken for years with many folks is to simply let them be right, because I don’t have the energy to go around in circles and I don’t need to win.

    Lately, I’ve been isolating myself from people generally, and it’s been refreshing to not wear so many different masks. It’s more honest for me, and feels less futile. Perhaps it’s not healthy in the long run, but episodically, it can be just what the doctor ordered.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Wow, Anacaona and Olive agree? I could have sworn you’d both expressed enjoying sex with your SOs. When and how did you lose the ability to be sexy?

    I had no idea how to be sexy without being slutty before I met my SO.

    Actually, here’s a good shocker. I never had an orgasm before I met him. Didn’t know how to have one.

    The media discussion about female sexuality in this country is not a healthy one. We’re having healthy discussions here, but most women can’t even begin to talk about sex or what is sexy in a healthy way. It’s either slutty or not sexy at all. And those were my two modes of operation before I got into my current relationship. Yeah I dunno how I attracted my BF either, but if you remember, the story about how we got together didn’t exactly involve me being seductive, it involved me being slutty.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      I had no idea how to be sexy without being slutty before I met my SO.

      That is so interesting. I wonder if men can teach women this, or even if it’s always men who teach women this.

      the story about how we got together didn’t exactly involve me being seductive, it involved me being slutty.

      I don’t remember that – I thought you just approached him. Can you share it again? I’m wondering how acting slutty to attract him didn’t get you put on the short-term only ladder, particularly as you said (I think) that he was a virgin?

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Susan,
    Glad to hear it. :-) I always enjoy the discussions here, you’ve fostered a good atmosphere.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I had no idea how to be sexy without being slutty before I met my SO.

    I learned to be sexy, or better yet to be comfortable with being sexy without thinking it made me dumber or less professional after my modeling class, so there I learned it or relearned after I was older and lived in my body for quite a while.

  • AM

    @ SW

    I think I understand your position a little better. I don’t think you are as much at odds with Rollo as you think.

    When he says “all women” I’m sure he doesn’t literally mean “all women” – just the majority of them. The implication there is that the exception – the woman who knows how to be sexy but not slutty – is quite special and worth pursuing.

    By a happy coincidence, your website itself is aimed towards helping women pursue intelligent mating strategies for landing a quality man. This is valuable information in the current society where many women are quite obviously confused concerning men and relationships. One such method – which I think you would not argue against – is being sexy without being slutty.

    Perhaps you took it as a personal attack to you, and your girlfriends, that you do not know how to be sexy, given that you certainly wouldn’t call yourselves slutty. If you assume this is not the case, and you re-read Rollo’s post (which I just did), are you still as upset over its message?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @AM

      Perhaps you took it as a personal attack to you, and your girlfriends, that you do not know how to be sexy, given that you certainly wouldn’t call yourselves slutty. If you assume this is not the case, and you re-read Rollo’s post (which I just did), are you still as upset over its message?

      If I could take Rollo’s post and strip away all criticism and judgment of Emma Watson’s attitude and lack of intelligence, the glib assertion that only “a few of the precious few” know how to be sexy, and his transparent disdain for everything female, including the pussy, then I would find that he has a point to make, one worth discussing. But that’s the equivalent of saying a 400 lb. female beast is a “nice girl when you get to know her.”

  • Mike C

    However, I respect the right of every woman to show zero body if she chooses.

    I agree as well with that. But it is stupid to try and sell that as “sexy”?

    Do you agree or disagree with that?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But it is stupid to try and sell that as “sexy”?

      Do you agree or disagree with that?

      On the face of it, for the average woman, I would say that it’s a poor strategy for attracting men. A beautiful woman can and will attract men wearing a burlap sack. In fact, some very good looking women deliberately dress down and unisex to run errands, etc. without being stared at.

      I don’t think Emma Watson was trying to sell anything. Her fame, along with her looks, makes it impossible for her to move about freely. As I said earlier, she needs some major filters to keep men away from her, but she doesn’t represent most women, nor does she claim to. In any case, she was talking about her own experience in photo shoots and the pressure she constantly faces to be seductive for the camera.

      If you’re implying that I am trying to sell refusing to wear a miniskirt or a pixie cut as sexy, that’s a pretty ridiculous claim, and not found anywhere else in nearly 600 blog posts. The 1 in 3 rule is specifically addressed to stimulating attraction in males. I do think she is right that “less is more” can capture the male imagination – but as an example I would use any of her many evening gowns that are elegant rather than overtly sexual. I suspect, and it is certainly the case in this thread, that there is great variation among men on this point.

      If you’ll recall my sexual harassment post, I dealt with many unwanted advances wearing short hair, a navy blue suit and a silk blouse with a big floppy bow under the neck. I was 0 for 3 every day of the week and it was a very eventful few years regardless. That’s an example of male attraction triggers being malleable at the micro level – when all the women are showing 0 for 3, some will still get sexual attention from men.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Lindsay,
    Actually I’m 23. Just graduated college last spring. Thanks for the well-wishes though!

    Lately, I’ve been isolating myself from people generally, and it’s been refreshing to not wear so many different masks. It’s more honest for me, and feels less futile. Perhaps it’s not healthy in the long run, but episodically, it can be just what the doctor ordered.

    Yeah that’s sort of my default. Trying to get out of the cycle though, without having to put the masks back on. Maybe I should learn game, so I can keep the same frame. :-P

  • Mike C

    What I object to is the zero sum approach.

    What does this mean? What, ***specifically*** do you mean by zero sum approach?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What does this mean? What, ***specifically*** do you mean by zero sum approach?

      In Rollo’s view, every gain for men must come at the expense of women. Take away her power to delay sex. Make sure you’re having sex with several women at the same time – refuse exclusivity for some period of time. His posts are generally designed to get men riled up about women as feminists who need to be firmly denied privileges by men.

      In contrast, I believe in encouraging women to willingly give more of themselves to men. Initiate more, select for character, learn to be sexy for him specifically, appreciate and respect men. It’s the natural counterpoint to straight Game – give men an opportunity to succeed by encouraging and rewarding the dominance you seek. I’m selling a strategy that I hope will make both parties happy. Rollo is selling a strategy that may make men happier but will make women miserable, which is a key part of his objective. I don’t believe it will make men happier if they want relationships, because his methods are relationship-destroying, similar to Roissy’s exhortation to “instill dread.” It’s a band-aid that may get you laid, but it’s highly dysfunctional.

  • Lindsay

    @Sue:

    It is funny that I’ve had to evoke some feminist themes here. As I’ve often said, I’m all for gender equity. That rankles the Rollos of the world, who preach the intellectual, social and even sexual inferiority of women. That requires a response, in my view.

    Thanks, it’s hard to please all of the people all of the time. Some readers here are also Ro fanboys, and some are downright haters. The controversial threads are always along the same lines – the battle of the sexes for control. Who gets to have sex, when do they get to have sex, what do they get in exchange for sex. Nothing new under the sun.

    Yep, like I said on the other thread, I’m all for gender equality, and more specifically, more of a meritocracy. However, Rollo’s oeuvre is not one I’m familiar with. I read a few paragraphs of his entry as relates to yours, and lost interest. I’ve only read your blog in any detail. I also read Roissy once or twice for entertainment value. Like I said several pages back, I’m deeply thankful that he regards me as garbage! = D

    HUS presents several perspectives and philosophies I’m not as familiar with, so it’s interesting to learn more. I come from a different social sphere than the majority of your readership, and in that sphere, the battles aren’t between men and women as much as they are between different orientations and presentations. Still, though, I have seen them over and over again, and could recite them on cue at this point. I’d imagine for your readers, it’s the same deal with the battle of the sexes.

  • Escoffier

    This conversation is reminding me of Sailer’s Law of Female Journalism, which does something like this: nothing gets a certain type of female intellectual more fired up than the question of hot or not, and her deepest desire is that society should be reorganized so that, after the revolution, “hotness” will be redefined to look exactly like she looks now.

    Not taking sides, though, just an impish observation.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      nothing gets a certain type of female intellectual more fired up than the question of hot or not, and her deepest desire is that society should be reorganized so that, after the revolution, “hotness” will be redefined to look exactly like she looks now.

      It is a truth universally acknowledged that there is nothing sexier than a 55 year old menopausal woman with a bob :)

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    “What I object to is the zero sum approach.”

    Yet earlier you stated that women are choose to(and if I’m not mistaken should) only act seductive sexy towards the top males.

    That eliminates any sum gain for the average male. If thats the case theres not much point to playing the game to help each other out.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yet earlier you stated that women are choose to(and if I’m not mistaken should) only act seductive sexy towards the top males.

      I think you are mistaken, I do not believe that at all! I may have expressed myself poorly – maybe my comment above will clarify.

  • Mike C

    That eliminates any sum gain for the average male. If thats the case theres not much point to playing the game to help each other out.

    Lokland, you appear to know what exactly this zero-sum approach refers to. Can you fill me in?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    You’re not making any sense.

    Which point exactly?

  • Lokland

    @ Mike C

    Males positive = female negative.
    Female positive = male negative.

    Theres no male positive = female positive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Theres no male positive = female positive.

      That is where I strongly disagree, having lived it for 30 years now.

  • Lindsay

    @Warm Woman:

    @Jackie

    I know you mentioned having a narcissistic family member (your grandmother?), as have I.

    I find that survivors of N tend to be highly empathic and sensitive, which is a good thing. The cons of being sensitive is that things can affect us more easily than those that are able to let go.

    As a survivor of childhood trauma and N myself, I agree. It’s hard to develop a thick skin when you’ve been directly told that you are hated and weren’t wanted, but I’ve had no choice. This, combined with my learning challenges, have made many things hard for me personally, but it is what it is. I don’t like or need to be pitied. I’ll keep on fighting, and do what I must to survive.

    You and Jackie both seem like wonderful people, and I’ve highly enjoyed conversing with you on here. Best wishes to you both.

  • Lindsay

    @Jackie:

    Props for the “Anything Goes”/Cole Porter reference. I’m not big on musicals generally, but Cole Porter is just fantastic.

  • Mike C

    Males positive = female negative.
    Female positive = male negative.

    Theres no male positive = female positive.

    Yeah, but to some extent male and female interests have ALWAYS been opposed. Thats nothing new. There was a certain arrangement in place for hundreds if not thousands of years to balance those competing interests.

    Generally speaking, monogamy especially with a high-value male is much more in the female interest. Its why your arrangement sends women into a frenzy. It strikes directly the core of their primary interest.

    Essentially, what Rollo is doing/trying to do is to move the bar and show men the other options out there, and really raise the bar for what it takes for a man, especially a high-value one to commit to monogamy. I can understand why some women find that message absolutely frightening. It is direct assault on their control. Essentially, the term “pussy power” becomes an oxymoron.

    Still, I’d be interested to hear exactly what Susan means by zero-sum.

  • Lokland

    @ Mike C

    I read some of Rollos stuff yesterday.
    Srikes me as a prick, doesn’t mean he isn’t right on some things. (This being one glaring example.)

    As for what men deserve, I’d much rather just meet in the middle. But thats not the world we live in, we are expected to go above and beyond for women who apparently can’t be bothered to be seductive because thats reserved for the top males only.

    I’m fully on board with the whole being greater than the sum of its parts but not if I’m the one doing all the giving to make the whole better.

  • Lokland

    Let me add on that I think Rollos viewpoint is extreme might be a way to restore some balance to the SMP. Making woman realise that we deserve some of the goods by taking away theirs might actually work.
    It also might just make the problem worse.

    Alternate solutions would be preferable.

  • Mike C

    Yeah, I think many find his communication style very off-putting. As a blunt, direct, to the point guy myself it doesn’t bother me although I tend to sometime alter my communication style depending on the venue, my mood, and whether or not I think being diplomatic is warranted. I don’t think he does diplomacy at all.

    As for what men deserve, I’d much rather just meet in the middle. But thats not the world we live in, we are expected to go above and beyond for women who apparently can’t be bothered to be seductive because thats reserved for the top males only.

    I’m fully on board with the whole being greater than the sum of its parts but not if I’m the one doing all the giving to make the whole better.

    I suppose yes to most of this. I actually think zero-sum is the wrong concept, there isn’t a fixed pie to divvy up. The real issue here which Susan is correct about is that it is about power and control.

    This is a grossly oversimplified model which doesn’t account for the complexity and richness of human connection and emotion but it is a decent rough guide. Basically, what you’ve got in terms of power dynamics is

    1. Women being able to dictate the terms and conditions on which men get sexual access.

    2. Men being able to dictate the terms and conditions on which women get committed, monogamous relationships.

    This dynamic become even more intense when you move higher and higher up the value chain of men. Understandably, I think some women get extremely upset at anything and anybody who actively works to reduce #1 and increase #2 especially when maybe it intersects with personal reasons.

    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/the-threat/

    “For a woman, to encounter a man with a healthy awareness of his own value to women, this constitutes a threat. Here is a man for whom’s attention women will demonstrably compete for, AND he knows this. This is the most basic affront to the feminine imperative; to be unplugged, of high SMP value and to derive confidence from it. Therefore, in order to actualize her own sexual strategy, his self-confidence MUST be put into self-doubt, because if such a man were to use this knowledge to his own benefit he may not select her from a pool of better prospective women. Thus she must ask “Are you really sure of yourself? You think you’re so great? Maybe you’re just egotist? Don’t tempt fate.”

    Now the interesting thing is women can still “WIN” here. They can find a good, decent guy that they can find something attractive in and build a relationship, a connection, and happiness. We have a number of women here who HAVE DONE JUST THAT.

    The alternative is the woman who is an 8 or thinks she is an 8 or just flat out overestimates her SMV, and simply says I can’t be attracted to any guys but the top 10-20% or 8 guys and above and simultaneously thinks she is going to dictate terms to that guys. He’ll just NEXT her every time. That woman will be a consistent loser. We’ve got some of those here as well.

  • Mike C

    Alternate solutions would be preferable.

    Sure. Definitely. Unfortunately, I think that is naively idealistic.

    By and large, I still think many women simply have too high of “boyfriend standards” for the corresponding value they bring to the table, and end up sending alot of good boyfriend type guys packing while bemoaning the guys they think they are entitled to who won’t commit. I’ve actually recently gotten some direct from the field information supporting this that I found fascinating and highly ironic.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    By and large, I still think many women simply have too high of “boyfriend standards” for the corresponding value they bring to the table, and end up sending alot of good boyfriend type guys packing while bemoaning the guys they think they are entitled to who won’t commit. I’ve actually recently gotten some direct from the field information supporting this that I found fascinating and highly ironic.

    And how I also have one recent example of how hypergamy is like a shroud in some women’s eyes and the more they age the more they are entitled to the perfect man. Ironic if anything ever was…

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @ Jackie # 600

    I loved the use of this song in “Sleuth”.

  • Lokland

    @ Mike C

    “Definitely. Unfortunately, I think that is naively idealistic.”

    Lol. Don’t put me in the happy boat. I think things are going to get worse for guys. Ladies I could really only care about (as a whole) if they would help fix the problem. But I suspect most don’t think theres a problem.

    I forsee tribalised, harem style mating being the majority thing within twenty years.

    Possible factors to alleviate this,

    Male pill. I doubt it because I think as guys we over-estimate the desire of women to have children. (Or I could think we over-estimate because I’m a guy and children are just part of the relationship not something I have any huge desire for.) And even more so we underestimate the desire for other guys to cuckold us.

    En-masse MGTOW, again I doubt it would work for the reasons in the previous solution.

    Every man learns game. Not gonna happen.

    We build a time machine and prevent it from ever happening. This has the most realistic chance or working.

    As for your info on the women with too high a standards problem, feel free to post it I know I’d like to see.

    Last, as for women simply having standards to are unattainable for 80ish% of men. Yes thats atleast 75% of the problem. Again, I suspect most women would rather be single than be with an average guy.

    Personally,
    I’m giving up on this wonderful ship that is NA. Theres better places to live with woman who will actually appreciate my sons and men who want P&D my daughters.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Anacaona…”the more they age the more they are entitled to the perfect man”

    This position, although obviously illogical, makes a certain kind of psychological sense…if you spend all day shopping, it will be more frustrating to settle for a product that wasn’t quite what you want than if you’d picked that same product up after the first 5 minutes…

  • Mike C

    Today, the largest growing segment of Viagra users is men 18-25. Men are so accustomed to seeing the female body on the screen, ****many have trouble achieving full arousal with a real woman.****

    Susan, I wanted to come back to this comment. You seemed to take particular issue with Rollo’s extrapolation that most women CANNOT arouse men, but here you are saying the exact opposite. So which is it?

    Therefore…women have directly controlled what men find sexy over time. And if they went back to dressing in floor length dresses with bustles, men would go back to admiring ankles.

    I would alter this that women control what baseline of female body exposure men find sexy. Its like a drug, the more you take of it, the more you need to get the same high. That doesn’t change the fact that women can be sexy in many other ways that go beyond how much of their body they choose to display (showing ankle versus flashing their tits or ass in a thong).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Susan, I wanted to come back to this comment. You seemed to take particular issue with Rollo’s extrapolation that most women CANNOT arouse men, but here you are saying the exact opposite. So which is it?

      The problem with male erectile dysfunction is largely due to porn, not the failure of ordinary women to arouse. Many men establish habits while watching porn that cannot be replicated IRL. Fast forwarding to the money shots is one. Expecting women to orgasm repeatedly and loudly from the get go is another. I believe that increasing numbers of men are developing a preference for anal sex, believing that women enjoy it, even rough. I read recently that a popular trend in porn is the following: Anal sex, he withdraws and demands oral (unwashed), goes back to anal, comes on her face, and she licks his penis. How many women do you believe are willing to perform that act IRL?

      The role of seducer is generally the male. He displays, the female selects. The exception to this is the femme fatale, or siren, usually portrayed as someone luring men to harm by using sexual power. In today’s SMP, many women are sexually aggressive, and little seduction occurs, period. The men have no need for it, and the women don’t demand it.

  • WarmWoman

    @lindsay

    Thanks for the sweet words! I’m sorry to hear that you endured what you had to. It looks like people that grew up with narcissist family members are more common than I thought.

    With a lot of practice and reframing your thoughts, I think it will become easier to let things slide off your back. Narcissists drill self-doubt into us, which is why some people start to internalize other people’s opinions!

  • Lokland

    “Today, the largest growing segment of Viagra users is men 18-25. Men are so accustomed to seeing the female body on the screen, ****many have trouble achieving full arousal with a real woman.****”

    I’ll add one to what Mike said.
    This also probably wouldn’t be an issue if most/large proportion of men were not forced to look at a screen instead of the real thing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      This also probably wouldn’t be an issue if most/large proportion of men were not forced to look at a screen instead of the real thing.

      I don’t think that’s logical. It’s not as if alpha guys are not watching porn – in fact, they’re the ones getting the most real life opportunities. Prescriptions for Viagra are not going to be sought by men who aren’t getting laid anyway. They many not even realize they would have a problem if the opportunity arose.

  • Mike C

    I forsee tribalised, harem style mating being the majority thing within twenty years.

    Nah, it won’t be the majority. But there is going to be enough of a shift to cause a shitstorm.

    Example. Taking the home ownership rate from 60% to about 68-69% from 1995-2006 was enough to cause a once in a century massive home price bubble where homes quadrupled in some areas.

    So it is going to take a small percentage of top guys either forsaking marriage or delaying it to have a big impact.

    Male pill. I doubt it because I think as guys we over-estimate the desire of women to have children.

    I don’t think so. There is a reason the term “babie rabies” exists. My sister is 34, and she has said some things to me that supports the idea that at some point the desire to have a baby becomes quite powerful. My guess is it is only a small minority of women who don’t get this feeling. This makes sense evolutionarily speaking as you’d think women would have evolved the instinct that essentially keeps the species from going extinct.

  • Lokland

    “This makes sense evolutionarily speaking as you’d think women would have evolved the instinct that essentially keeps the species from going extinct.”

    No, it does makes sense evolutionarily speaking. Theres 0 reason for her to want to propagate the species. Its all about her, same for men. Propagating the species is a by-product.
    Think about it, if a womans sole purpose was to propagate the species she would mate with the first man she could after she popped out a baby every single time.
    Thats not how we work.
    We are selfish by nature. Whatever (non kin) altruism we show is rising above our genes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Think about it, if a womans sole purpose was to propagate the species she would mate with the first man she could after she popped out a baby every single time.

      No, she must select the sperm very carefully. It will take her nine months to deliver, and she wants a strong baby both before and after birth. Selecting for strong genes means her child has a shot at surviving infancy, which would have been a real challenge.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Lokland

    She wants a baby but from the right candidate. Same as a guy wants sex but she has to pass the boner test. The impulse is raw, on top of that there´s the screening for quality, and on top of that the social programming, ego and what not.

    In a way all women care about is having kids. The man and everything else are just proxies for that. In the same way that all men care about is sex and everything else is a proxy.

  • Lokland

    “So it is going to take a small percentage of top guys either forsaking marriage or delaying it to have a big impact.”

    Solid point. I’m not an economist so I’ll take your word for it.

    In the end it won’t do much for your average guy because theres a difference between men and houses. Houses don’t require owners whereas men require women which will be a counter-balance to keep the price low.
    Throw in hypergamy and all it does is fuel the price hike of the mansions but keeping the price low on the average house.

    I don’t doubt some women will figure it out and marry a greater beta but in the end there won’t be enough to go around.

    How does that interpretation look from the money perspective?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    We are selfish by nature.

    You dont do it to help the species, but to replicate yourself, which is the same, really. You´re right the drive isnt altruistic but egoistical though.

  • purplesneakers

    The thread seems to be a big back and forth now, but I re-read the quote above, and it really seems that Watson has confused the term ‘sexy’ to mean ‘what I feel comfortable wearing.’ In an age where people want to make EVERYTHING sexy, from saying ‘this house is sexy’ to ‘this stock is sexy,’ it’s not really that surprising. Though this quote came way before her pixie cut, apparently? So her quote her wasn’t trying to get men to find her sexy with short hair, and it would be great if people stopped responding to that strawman, because while I’m sure there are many clueless women out there who think that men should love them for ‘who they are’ (that being unattractive and unpleasant), they’re not posting here.

    OTOH- I do think that something that makes people ‘sexier’ is when they’re comfortable with themselves. Even women, because if they’re more comfortable with themselves, they will be more pleasant to be around, generally. Of course I may be confusing ‘sexy’ with ‘attractive’ here, where sexy probably stimulates the ‘spread my seed’ impulse in men (which is something I can’t relate to, not being a man), and attractive is more like ‘s/he is so cool, would make a great boy/girlfriend.’

  • Lokland

    @ Yomahi

    Ya, your right. The don’t want kids thing was getting excessive.
    Maybe a pill for men will fix all the issues. I just doubt it, I think the problem has gone beyond biology now and been made apart of our culture.

  • Mike C

    In the end it won’t do much for your average guy because theres a difference between men and houses. Houses don’t require owners whereas men require women which will be a counter-balance to keep the price low.
    Throw in hypergamy and all it does is fuel the price hike of the mansions but keeping the price low on the average house.

    I don’t doubt some women will figure it out and marry a greater beta but in the end there won’t be enough to go around.

    How does that interpretation look from the money perspective?

    I don’t know. Hard to predict most women’s marginal utility for different housing. At least right now, it seems like there are enough women who either want the mansion or prefer to remain homeless. Maybe eventually they’ll be happy with the 1200-1500 sq ft, 3 bedroom?

  • Lokland

    “You´re right the drive isnt altruistic but egoistical though.”

    I don’t doubt the drive to reproduce. I just pointed out the error and I’ve seen it a few times on this thread that “its for the species” is not correct.
    Its for me, you or whoever that individual is not humanity.

    I still believe in genuine altruism though. Mating is the last place to expect it to appear.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Lokland,

    I guess you´re a guy? if so you *should* have a strong enough drive to have sex. Like most women should have a strong drive to have kids. Statistically speaking. At the end and thanks to the magic of the bees, sex and kids are the same thing.

  • purplesneakers

    To be honest, I’ve had a visceral negative reaction to a lot of the posts here that have been along the lines of ‘only men can define what is sexy.’ I mean, of course, it’s up to men what they find physically arousing, and even that is not in their control so much as hardwired – I don’t think that is up for debate.

    So I’m trying to figure out what bothers me about this so much, and I’d like to think it’s not just ‘but I want everyone’s ideal to be ME!’ And I think it has to do with something Olive mentioned, which is that, basically, I *don’t* feel comfortable ‘being sexy’ the way most girls ‘perform’ ‘sexy’, and which is what most guys my age (college/early 20′s) react to. It feels more like ‘playing at sexy.’ For example– I also wouldn’t feel comfortable in a mini-skirt. My experience is that, while putting yourself out there like that *does* get you more attention and approaches, it also gets mostly guys approaching you just for hook-ups. Another reason is that, the more I think about it, the more I realize I really have been ‘indoctrinated’ with ‘feminist’ ideas like that dressing a certain way to get more male attention is ‘cheapening’ myself. I don’t really know how to let go of this ‘programming,’ especially because when I was a teenager, it was also my refuge against my uber-conservative immigrant famiily.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @purplesneakers

      I *don’t* feel comfortable ‘being sexy’ the way most girls ‘perform’ ‘sexy’, and which is what most guys my age (college/early 20′s) react to. It feels more like ‘playing at sexy.’ For example– I also wouldn’t feel comfortable in a mini-skirt. My experience is that, while putting yourself out there like that *does* get you more attention and approaches, it also gets mostly guys approaching you just for hook-ups.

      Thank you for sharing that. I welcome the input from young women making these choices every day. One reader emailed me about this thread to say that she used to get up before class, put on makeup, wash and blow dry her hair, and dress in a cute outfit. Of course, it took her about 45 minutes, but she said the worst part was getting hit on, even at 10 in the morning. “Hey, beautiful, coming to our toga party this weekend?” What she termed “normal” guys didn’t seem to notice, so she said it became a real nuisance. Now she gets up, brushes her teeth, throws on Juicy pants and a hoodie and she’s off. Now she is actively deflecting the male gaze when she goes to class, and I can totally understand why.

      (Note to lurkers: Please leave a comment rather than emailing me – then people can discuss it with you directly, which is so much better!)

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Lokland

    I still believe in genuine altruism though.

    Yup you´re a guy. I believe too.

    Mating is the last place to expect it to appear.

    True.

  • Rum

    Straight guys could accurately the sexiness quotient that any given young woman possesses. Just have her strip down to no cloths, go into a shower, come out of the shower, stand up and be allowed to drip dry for a few minutes. While she is being checked out. The guy now comprehends her sex rank. She will need her cloths back on for the things she has scheduled for the rest of the day -to keep warm, to get an interview, – everything else but improving her sex rank because nothing her cloths or style is more relevant than what she looks and smells like in the shower. If this experiment ever got done, expect to see high grade correllations among every type of hetero sex men.
    See,, once the naked place has been arrived at, styles and hair dos get washed away.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    purplesneakers,

    To be honest, I’ve had a visceral negative reaction to a lot of the posts here that have been along the lines of ‘only men can define what is sexy.’ I mean, of course, it’s up to men what they find physically arousing, and even that is not in their control so much as hardwired – I don’t think that is up for debate.

    Thanks for making sense.

    So I’m trying to figure out what bothers me about this so much, and I’d like to think it’s not just ‘but I want everyone’s ideal to be ME!’ And I think it has to do with something Olive mentioned, which is that, basically, I *don’t* feel comfortable ‘being sexy’ the way most girls ‘perform’ ‘sexy’, and which is what most guys my age (college/early 20′s) react to.

    That´s the trap, measuring sexiness using the slut bar. If you dont want that game, dont go there, there´s plenty of stuff you can do to be sexy without being like those girls, and there´s a market for you.

    The other side of the story of believing that lie, that “men only respond to sluts” is that if you rebel to it, as you should, you end up as a tomboy, totally missing the point.

    Another reason is that, the more I think about it, the more I realize I really have been ‘indoctrinated’ with ‘feminist’ ideas like that dressing a certain way to get more male attention is ‘cheapening’ myself.

    Funny how feminism can do that while at the same time running slut walks. Be a slut, but make sure you´re non feminine and non attractive. Lol and sad.

    Just be a woman, be feminine, be fun do be around, show interest, be warm and attentive and flirty etc. That will open the doors of male attention. No tits in the open involved.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    It´s a duh moment. But Im realizing how hard it is for women to accept femininity. It might be as hard as it is for most men to accept masculinity.

    So hard to accept femininity if at the same time you have to always have the upper hand, never push back and be wary of power struggles.

    So hard to accept masculinity if at the same time you have to worry about not being strong, being polite, do the right thing – when the right thing in the air is not to be a man.

    Oh boy. What´s going on. Lets go back or forward. This state of things is insane.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Oh boy. What´s going on. Lets go back or forward. This state of things is insane.

    There’s an answer. It’s called Inner Game For Women. I’m working on it. So are many others here, I think.

  • Lindsay

    @Warm Woman:

    Narcissists drill self-doubt into us, which is why some people start to internalize other people’s opinions!

    Yes, I agree. Over the years, I’ve grown to feel thankful that such people find me intrinsically repulsive, and to quickly identify the occasions when convincing them otherwise isn’t worth it – which it seldom is. The tack I’ve always taken is to flatter them, and even encourage them to feel superior, while continuing to regard me as scum, and then to exit the situation as quickly as possible. It’s useful in all situations and encounters with narcissists and other destructive types, because there is no winning with them – the rare victory is Pyrrhic in nature.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Lindsay

    On a related note, the guys were burning out in the 90s in my HS, before standardized testing and group-work was widespread. You’d assume that they’d be eager to compete and get into accelerated classes, if the competition was what drove them. But nope. Despite the curriculum of my HS not changing one iota since about 1972, the guys viewed school as “for f*gs/for girls.” My opinion? Later Gen-Xers like us were bombarded with unflattering profiles of academically gifted high school guys in 80s and 90s movies (John Hughs movies are a great example) who never got the girl and never got laid. I think they unconsciously avoided academics because the current media they grew up under told them academics=loner virgin syndrome, forever. Being cool, to guys of my generation, was playing football or becoming the next Kurt Cobain. Making As in physics and biochem, not so much.

    That meme was going strong in the ’70s when I was in high school. I bet it started in the ’60s. I admit I was in a blue collar bedroom community. Grading on the curve was prevalent. The other kids assumed that high scorers lowered their letter grades. Talk about punishing excellence!

  • Butterfly Flower

    In a way all women care about is having kids. The man and everything else are just proxies for that. In the same way that all men care about is sex and everything else is a proxy.

    Well, I wouldn’t say “let’s make babies!” is a woman’s main [romantic] goal. It’s about more than just starting a family. It’s about finding a man you want to build a life with, finding someone you want to grow old with.

  • J

    One of the things I want to do when I get more money is to open a homeless reformation center to feed and clothe the homeless but also to help them to become part of society again so is good to know I might find people that will be willing to join my cause at some point in time.

    Ana, that is so nice.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    This position, although obviously illogical, makes a certain kind of psychological sense…if you spend all day shopping, it will be more frustrating to settle for a product that wasn’t quite what you want than if you’d picked that same product up after the first 5 minutes…

    I do know the feeling of I’m working so hard to achieve X I want a man that has X or X plus but this only works if women never age or loss sexual power. My friend is 33 and a single mother. She cannot ask for a better man than the ones she already went through and in my country this is not a secret. Most women kind of know we have an expiration date. But she is kind of living on the idea that once an older single mother found a rich man that married her and she will be as lucky as she was, even though 99% of the women in her position stay single a long time. Is sad in many ways.

    I don’t think so. There is a reason the term “babie rabies” exists. My sister is 34, and she has said some things to me that supports the idea that at some point the desire to have a baby becomes quite powerful. My guess is it is only a small minority of women who don’t get this feeling. This makes sense evolutionarily speaking as you’d think women would have evolved the instinct that essentially keeps the species from going extinct.
    I will also add that some women get delayed Babies Rabies I know women that get severely depressed after menopause because now they are 100% sure they won’t carry a child. You would think they figured that out soon, but the thing is that women are very good at self delusion, the famous hamster and once they convince themselves they are happy with certain things only the most cruel reality will wake them up. The same for the other way around a woman that has it all and chooses to be unhappy will destroy everything she has. We are a powerful gender, sadly with great power comes great responsibility, they should had made Spiderman a girl, maybe that would had get the message clearer.

    I don’t know. Hard to predict most women’s marginal utility for different housing. At least right now, it seems like there are enough women who either want the mansion or prefer to remain homeless. Maybe eventually they’ll be happy with the 1200-1500 sq ft, 3 bedroom?

    I think is better to compare this with the job market. Since now the new campaign is to make work less time consuming to even out the wages per gender. So the woman wants a job that pays good, with few hours, lots of vacations and perks and maternity leave. But she is only qualified as a blue collar employee and she refuses to settle for less than she deserves so she keeps herself unemployed and working as a free lancer till she can get the dream job.

    So hard to accept femininity if at the same time you have to always have the upper hand, never push back and be wary of power struggles.
    I think we had this discussion of femininity being hard to accept because femininity is associated with weakness, dumbness and powerlessness. The issue is that in the same way that many factors lead the Rome’s demise the SMP was a ticking bomb with many ingredients.

    The tack I’ve always taken is to flatter them, and even encourage them to feel superior, while continuing to regard me as scum, and then to exit the situation as quickly as possible. It’s useful in all situations and encounters with narcissists and other destructive types, because there is no winning with them – the rare victory is Pyrrhic in nature.

    Interesting this was my technique for years, play myself down, find a defect they can’t stand and make sure they think I have it and let them go thinking they got lucky for not continuing to pursue me. Works like a charm.

    Ana, that is so nice.

    Well you have my e-mail when I become millionaire you can start bugging me about doing my project. Is always good to have someone to keep me honest. :)

  • Good Luck Chuck

    Lokland

    Personally,
    I’m giving up on this wonderful ship that is NA. Theres better places to live with woman who will actually appreciate my sons and men who want P&D my daughters.

    Amen.

    I’m not saying that anywhere on this earth is perfect, but the existence of these blogs alone shows that there are serious problems with our culture, especially when it comes to the SMP. It not sustainable and eventually the forces of natural selection will see to it that balance is restored, but I’m not going to sit around here and hope for it to happen in my lifetime.

  • Glasses

    Yep, Glasses is a woman. Thanks for the explanation, Susan. I really don’t mind the picture, it just rubbed me in the wrong way. Seemed to be one of those “look at me look at me” things.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Glasses

      In all honesty, I got a high score on the Narcissistic Personality Inventory Test. I’m not sure there is such a thing as a blogger without a dose of self-esteem so high it borders on narcissism, so I plead guilty to that. In this case, though, I wasn’t fishing for compliments. I’ve posted my pic here a bunch of times, also my husband and kids. Some of those photos were overlooked by readers, though, who never suspected they were of the Hooking Up Smarts.

  • Tisha

    This is the great post to me..Sexy for me is when a person tends to arouse sexual desire and she possesses charm with confidence and is smart.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Yohami,

    “It´s a duh moment. But Im realizing how hard it is for women to accept femininity. It might be as hard as it is for most men to accept masculinity.”

    I’m always astounded when girls don’t realize their innate birthright of beauty, & instead go hacking at their bodies, painting their faces, covering up the smell of their skin with perfume & acting like they’re told to do in the magazines. But of course they can’t. They can’t see what they already have, only what they can put on top of it. They can’t see how their simple, unadorned femaleness appears to men anymore than they can smell their own pheromones.

    And I think you’re right, that we now are in an age where to simply be what we are born is now dangerous to us, & all our waking efforts are pitted against it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron

      I’m always astounded when girls don’t realize their innate birthright of beauty, & instead go hacking at their bodies, painting their faces, covering up the smell of their skin with perfume & acting like they’re told to do in the magazines.

      An interesting chicken or egg question. Do men bestow lots of attention on women with scanty clothes and heavy makeup because that’s all women are offering? Or do the women’s magazines advise those tactics and sell those products because that’s what men reward with validation?

      In my experience as a sorority chick (and I know it is still the same now), the women who do all that stuff get a lot more male interest.

      Here’s an interesting tidbit. My son went to middle school and high school with Cameron Russell. She wore no makeup and was reserved. She got no male attention. Once I was driving a group of five 9th grade boys around, and they were talking about who is hot. I asked, “How about Cameron?” They responded unanimously that she was boring and plain, and that she looked like a guy. I could see quite clearly that at 15 she was stunning.

      The popular girls, who everyone wanted to get with, rocked a very slutty vibe.

      Here’s Cameron today, as a Victoria’s Secret model:

      cr2

      This is similar to how she looked in high school:

      cr3

      I await Yohami’s psychoanalysis.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    JM,

    I wasn’t trying to analyze you.

    Could’ve fooled me. :-P

    Funny how quick you are to be critical of girls you have problems with but are incredibly tolerant of an asshole like Rollo.
    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/02/10/whatguyswant/defining-sexy/comment-page-4/#comments
    Not at all? You sure?

    Yes, I’m sure. I made an observation. I spent the majority of my weekend being sexy with my girlfriend, analyzing Daniel Defoe’s A Journal of the Plague Year, actually. I have a life beyond HUS, believe it or not.

    I think you’re missing my point a bit. I don’t think you need to engage with Rollo in order to have an intelligent discussions with Mike C and Yohami (or anyone, really). Let’s keep the discussion about what it’s about: you didn’t read the post.

    That’s been established. I actually didn’t comment on Rollo’s post until about 500 comments in, after having read explanations and excerpts of Rollo’s post by Sue, Yohami, Mike C, and Rollo himself. And even then, it was one comment.

    To be honest, the question of who gets to define sexy doesn’t interest me.

    You are right. When Rollo stops by, he’s not interested in discussion. He’s interested in making Susan look dumb. I ignored his “clarification” for a reason, because he’s being a douche, he’s on the defensive. But his original post had some interesting points, regardless of whether he’s a douche.

    That’s nice. I just don’t have the time to read douche bags in hope of finding interesting points.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I do want to add that my feelings about women in general have nothing to do with the way I interpreted Rollo’s post. You’re talking about my personal history, and I’m talking about my interpretation of a specific written piece. It’s tedious when I side with Team Man, and someone brings up my feelings towards women. I may be frustrated with them from a personal standpoint, but I don’t consistently side with Team Man on everything. To be honest, I don’t like sides. Why can’t we all search for truth together, regardless of whether we’re assholes or crazy bitches?

    You’ll notice that I have zero feelings of enmity towards the women around here. On the contrary, Anacaona, Hope, Sassy, Susan, Bellita, I find them all interesting. I wish I could find women like them in real life besides my mother. Point me and I’m there.

    Really, Olive, you made much more of the comment than was intended. I just found it interesting…..

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    20 something male virgins have different piles: pile a. girls who will give me the time of day; and, pile b. the rest.

  • lovelost

    Bloody British Big Fat Cute Chick won 6 Grammy :)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    Ah! Im not one. It had to do more with a savior / superman / codependent complex

    The superman/savior stuff is shell material.

    The codependency is the soft stuff. Or at least it’s the light, muted sound that the shell makes when you tap it, implying something soft on the inside.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Intelligence in a woman is extremely attractive to me. I don’t agree at all with the men who say that anything above a 120 IQ is a pain in the ass.

    I will concede that a woman who feels the need to be validated for her intelligence is a pain in the ass. But grown people of either sex who require validation for any quality are a pain in the ass.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    Or at least it’s the light, muted sound that the shell makes when you tap it

    Pure poetry.

    What I meant is whatever soft I have is not hidden – Im very open. So it´s not like Im hiding in the Watson style.

    Yet maybe it doesnt matter – the psychological structure can remain the same open or not, shell in the outside and mellow inside.

    My first narcissist (first argentina girlfriend) was a drama queen, the second one (last girlfriend) was a happy girl. Very very different personalities but at the end they shared the same structure. I though I was aiming for something different, but seems like I was after the same.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Mike C – “By and large, I still think many women simply have too high of “boyfriend standards” for the corresponding value they bring to the table, and end up sending alot of good boyfriend type guys packing while bemoaning the guys they think they are entitled to who won’t commit. I’ve actually recently gotten some direct from the field information supporting this that I found fascinating and highly ironic”

    Yep. It is what happens when entitlement princess attitudes become so pervasive that it becomes the norm.

    Lokland – “I’ll add one to what Mike said.
    This also probably wouldn’t be an issue if most/large proportion of men were not forced to look at a screen instead of the real thing.”

    I call BS on the proposed reason Susan gave for the Viagra stat. I would be willing to bet money that a large segment of this age group use Viagra because they are having sex when they are so drunk they can’t get it up without help.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      There is definitely an increase in Viagra recreationally, but it’s thought that most people get the drug via the internet or on the street because they don’t want to go to a doctor and feign impotence.

      Here’s a recent article on the connection between potency and porn:

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marnia-robinson/no-porn-no-viagra_b_489194.html

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Lokland,

    You asked me somewhere upthread how I would define “sexy.” I would say it’s the ability to subtly insinuate or “connote” one’s sexual energy.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    Yea, I think narcissists are different. They don’t have the soft inner part that needs protecting.

    Could be that Watson doesn’t. I have no idea. The averted eyes in the pic above seemed to point to something beneath the outer shell, but it’s a posed pic for a professional photographer. So who knows?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    I think narcissists are different. They don’t have the soft inner part that needs protecting.

    They do, what they dont have is bridges to care about yours.

    I know nothing about Watson. Pure speculation here.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @ Cheerful #704

    Second that. A tom will do in a pinch.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    They do, what they dont have is bridges to care about yours.

    True. You’re right.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    By encouraging Positive Masculinity, by making men aware of their conditioning, by exposing the fem-centrism of contemporary society, I’m encouraging men to be the Man women ultimately want him to be; confident, decisive, self-aware, etc. all the things on women’s 436 bullet point list. In other words to be the Man that other men want to be, and other women want to fuck. But that Man is a threat to you, because it puts a woman into the role of having to qualify herself to him.

    Rollo for the win.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ana,

    Well I think you mentioned you don’t follow pop culture but I do and I am a potterhead too and Emma anti sex campaign has been an issue for a while. She refuses to talk about Hermione and Ron as a couple and deviate the question all the time as an actress this is an important arc on her character and something she knows many fans want and yet she just says no.

    Um…. She’s not Hermione. Hermione and Ron are characters in a story (right?), not real people. Why would she want to speculate on the off-screen lives of people who don’t even exist off-screen? Just sounds silly.

    I already mentioned the crossing her legs in premieres when posing.

    This says what, exactly?

    I already followed another young starlet uncomfortable with the sexualization of her persona: Kristen Kreuk (she even had a body double to do some sexy Lana shots and changed managers when he signed her up for a sexy photoshoot she wasn’t comfortable with, still her other photoshots are warm and inviting) even though we knew she wasn’t comfortable with the sex symbol image she never acted cold or anti sex and she also cut her hair. She was giddy and happy and warm about it and twittered to heaven’s above. Totally the opposite of ice queen Watson here or everywhere. So I might be reading her wrong but I do think she is showing more about her own sexual attitude than just rejecting out of pure principle. Of course I might be wrong, time will tell.

    Sounds to me like Watson has ambitions to be a serious actress. Avoiding all the crazy fan stuff is the right move.

  • Ὁ ὄνος τρὀγων ζιζάνια

    Sexiness, shit…

    I realize this is likely to be a minority opinion. It certainly is whenever I bring it up in conversation, but I once had to choose between a very sexy, infertile woman and one who was less sexy in a more conventional way, but who was able to have children.

    The sex I enjoyed with the infertile woman, although she was very sexually skilled, left me strangely unfullfilled, as though I was spending all my time shooting skeets instead of tromping around the fields and woods hunting actual pheasants and turkeys. My male friends encouraged me to remain with the infertile woman. She was, after all, hot according to their lights, the sex was good, and I had said I didn’t want children anyway.

    My female friends despised the infertile woman. They couldn’t understand my (and my male friends’) attraction to her. “What is all that sexiness for?, they kept asking me. They encouraged me to pay more attention to the other woman, who was being pretty patient considering that I was kind of besotted with the infertile woman. Eventually, it wore around that the sex wasn’t enough. It was very self-indulgent, the sex I had with her. It was based on mutual pleasure, nothing more.

    Duh. Just about everybody I talked to about this said “duh”. What else is sex for? A lot of people don’t even get mutual pleasure out of it. I should count my blessings. They asked me if I loved the infertile woman. I said that love was a complex word. If I loved her it would be a very selfish kind of love, as any future that we built upon it would be centered on the two of us and no one else.

    It turned out not to be enough for me. I broke up with her and, although I didn’t take up with the fertile woman, I married one just like her a short time later. One of my friends immediately snapped up the infertile woman and wifed her up. I heard eventually that they decided to adopt and were successful in that.

    Hearing this made me feel bad because I realized that one of my objections to this woman was that she wouldn’t have been able to bear my biological children, and that did matter to me. My ancestors busted their asses to make sure I was here, and I felt like I owed them at least that.

    I am such a fucking anachronism. I don’t care for contraception, and we live in a society that celebrates contraception and is ambivalent about children. After five hundred millenia, we’ve finally been able to separate the fun of sex from the consequences and I seem to be the only one, apart from some fussy celibates in lace clothes, who thinks its a Bad Idea.

  • A.

    “Intelligence in a woman is extremely attractive to me. I don’t agree at all with the men who say that anything above a 120 IQ is a pain in the ass.”

    Bear in mind, with mean =100 and st = 15, someone with an IQ of 120 should be smarter than 90.9% of people. I wonder what’s the harder standard to meet, intelligence or hotness?

    I’m very skeptical about people saying they are intelligent women and therefore attractive, or that they’re men who are attracted to intelligence in women. What are these people doing on dates, devising plans of attacks on the Riemann Hypothesis? If not, how does intelligence factor into it?

    I think what it is is that they’re mistakenly conflating some unrelated trait with intelligence. (Maybe classiness?) Like when Jesus said Emma “looked intelligent.” I think that’s nonsense, like saying someone tastes intelligent. Does this “look intelligent”?

    http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&safe=active&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=608&tbm=isch&tbnid=VWPqZfdOvB31VM:&imgrefurl=http://scientistsinformation.blogspot.com/2010/06/albert-einstein-1879-1955.html&docid=0RHRxBXFCJIcgM&imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IfHKdZwDktA/TCBXYbGlJKI/AAAAAAAABgY/e8Z7YecgZic/s1600/Famous%252Bphoto%252Bof%252BScientist%252BAlbert%252BEinstein.jpg&w=400&h=521&ei=jjg5T8_gNuSusAL37vS0Ag&zoom=1

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @A

      I’m very skeptical about people saying they are intelligent women and therefore attractive, or that they’re men who are attracted to intelligence in women. What are these people doing on dates, devising plans of attacks on the Riemann Hypothesis? If not, how does intelligence factor into it?

      As an example, I’ll offer up the comment threads that happen here. I’m always impressed, sometimes amazed and often outclassed in intelligence. This is one heck of a smart group of people hashing stuff out, even though they’re talking about sex and relationships. I like smart men because they make interesting connections, are often witty and creative, and are curious about the world and how things work.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    A.

    I haven’t licked enough women to speak with authority on an intelligent taste. Maybe Yohami or someone else can enlighten us on that subject.

    But you raise an interesting point. I would say that facial expressions can tell you a lot about a person. Some “looks” suggest a deeper “inner life” than others. Sometimes an individual has a look that conveys a sense of cunning or shame or calculation or playfulness. There are times when it seems like everything about a person can be read in his or her face as easily as if it were printed in a children’s primer. Other faces cast shadows. The way the eyes shift or the brow crinkles or the mouth twists up on one side only or the jaw is held crookedly. These people require a closer, more subtle reading.

    It’s not an exact science, of course.

  • Mule Chewing Briars

    @A, JM

    By 50, you have the face you deserve.
    Doubly so if you accede to plastic surgery.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    It occurs to me that you have to calibrate your game for a woman’s intelligence, and that Roissy’s tactics would probably fail with women above a certain intelligence. His MO is to use some basic psychological principles to engage women on an emotional level. But any woman able to see the strategies for what they are is not going to “engage” emotionally.

    I can read a novel and appreciate the story on an emotional level even when I’m aware of what strategy the author used to affect that emotion. But if I see the set-up ahead of time, then the story loses me. That’s one of the reasons why pop lit bores me; I always see the set-up ahead of time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      . His MO is to use some basic psychological principles to engage women on an emotional level. But any woman able to see the strategies for what they are is not going to “engage” emotionally.

      That was the question I asked last week – when a woman recognizes Game moves, are they less effective? Didn’t you say they are not?

  • purplesneakers

    Being an intelligent woman sucks. I think I can safely say I probably qualify as our society’s definition of ‘intelligent’ (which seems to be school smarts and/or intellectualism), having tested into ‘gifted’ academic programs all my life. I feel distant and removed from most other people, and being introverted and not great at small talk or vapid conversation doesn’t help either. IMO, this is a much worse trait for a woman to have than for a man to have.

    Is my intelligence something that men have appreciated about me in the past? Not really. They’ve thought that my life choices/what I was doing with my life were “awesome,” but that only made me feel kind of sad and repulsed both by them and with myself.

    I also don’t really want to get into a big debate with anyone I am dating. I’ve had enough of that. I want to feel feminine and like their date/girlfriend, not like their debate team partner. I get the sense that many women confuse ‘intelligent’ with ‘confident.’ The two don’t always go hand in hand. There are many confident lower-IQ women, and many insecure higher-IQ women. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the way the graph looks– as IQ gets higher, confidence gets lower.

    No one really gives a shit if a girl is ‘smart’. In general, but especially for women, emotional intelligence is so much more important than IQ. While I know that my ‘intelligence’ opens doors to certain high-income professions that other women probably wouldn’t be able to get to as easily, even in those professions, good looks are a huge asset to women. Looks never stop mattering. So if someone were to ask me whether I would drop 10 IQ points to gain 1 point on the looks scale, I would probably say ‘yes.’

  • WarmWoman

    Purplesneakers

    Have you read “Why men marry bitches?” by Sherry Argov? The survey of various men said they secretly adore a woman that can express her opinion or disagree. Expressing your opinion doesn’t mean debating or trying to prove the other person wrong. You can still be feminine and respectful towards your man’s words, but stand your ground on how you feel.

    If I’m not mistaken, you’re young right?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Personally, I would take a 6 with an IQ of 140 over an 8 with an IQ of 100. Of course, a 4 with an IQ of 140 isn’t going to cut it. There’s a minimum requirement for looks.

    Keeping in mind that my 4, 6, and 8 are obviously going to be different than someone else’s.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    No one really gives a shit if a girl is ‘smart’.

    That’s definitely not the case with the men I know.

  • Confidunce

    Tell you what, Rollo: I’ll date Emma Watson. You date Snooki.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Um…. She’s not Hermione. Hermione and Ron are characters in a story (right?), not real people. Why would she want to speculate on the off-screen lives of people who don’t even exist off-screen? Just sounds silly.

    ??? Had you ever seen any other actress who refuses to discuss the romantic arc of a character they had played for years? Is not silly they are supposed to know and understand their character motivations, love and fears and they usually discuss this on interviews. I mean why would you interview and actress if she will only tell you what she is doing onscreen and nothing more?

  • anonymous

    Re: where we’re heading
    I hate to be pessimistic, but…
    Based on what I’ve observed in the last 40+ years, things will continue to get worse. With no religious nor social pressure in place, there will be NO positive change.
    The ghetto is the canary and the rest of society is following its example.
    Both genders will continue jumping onto the carousel, more cads and more sluts. Women will accept that lifetime relationships with men are unattainable. Not that the general population would stay committed to one person for their lifetime anyway without some external forces. Single motherhood will continue to increase.

    I really don’t see the male pill changing anything except that individual men will avoid having unwanted children. Irresponsible men will continue to impregnate several women and the entrepreneurial ones will make money selling their sperm as the demand goes up.
    More relationship-minded people will suffer. (Generally the majority of posters on blogs such as this one.) The rest of society is taking things as they come and adjusting.

    The only way I see out of this mess is implementing more brakes to the hookup scene, but that’s not going to happen.

  • anonymous

    *ALL women*
    MINUS
    - Obese women
    - Older women who have hit “the wall”
    - Women who rank 4 or below and don’t pass the boner test
    - Women who refuse to be seductive or slutty, keep their hair long, dress for the male gaze, act feminine/ friendly
    = 80% of women?
    No way!

    Along with:
    “Today, the largest growing segment of Viagra users is men 18-25. Men are so accustomed to seeing the female body on the screen, ****many have trouble achieving full arousal with a real woman.”

    Men are *potentially* attracted to about 80% of women, but not in actuality (that #s too high).

  • purplesneakers

    Have you read “Why men marry bitches?” by Sherry Argov? The survey of various men said they secretly adore a woman that can express her opinion or disagree. Expressing your opinion doesn’t mean debating or trying to prove the other person wrong. You can still be feminine and respectful towards your man’s words, but stand your ground on how you feel.

    If I’m not mistaken, you’re young right?

    yup, I’m 23. (Though I think in the manosphere, that makes me over the hill already!). I have heard of that book, actually when a friend in college suggested I read it. She’s one of the most intimidating girls I have ever met, because she is extremely intelligent, very attractive, and not modest about either. While I agree with what you’re saying, I just took a look at the book on amazon and like, with anything else, I think what the author advocates only works if the guy thinks you’re hot enough to put up with.

    That’s definitely not the case with the men I know.

    Ok, I probably over-generalized with ‘no one.’ :P

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    This says what, exactly?

    Aren’t guys suposedly good at reading body language from women?

    Avoiding all the crazy fan stuff is the right move.

    After becoming rich because the fans pay good money?? Yeah right. She also has refers to fans when asking for perks so she is not high and beyond fan pandering she just panders to fans when she feels like it. You really know nothing about acting do you? Fans are the ones that go to your movies when you treat them right. Divas can act as serious as they want to but if the fans reject them their shell life expires really soon.

  • Jackie

    @PurpleSneakers (#717)
    Aww, PS, I am so sorry to hear that. *hug* I think that anytime anyone differs from the status quo, it makes people uncomfortable– both the “different one” and everyone else. Especially with smarts: You need a ton of EQ to understand when/if you should drop a reference or allude to a certain author, theory, quote, piece of art, etc.

    For your consideration, two things:
    1) Gardner’s theory of Multiple Intelligences
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_intelligences

    It forces me to re-evaluate myself & others. I can freely admit I am crap at spatial stuff, lots of logic & philosophy, math, anything related to mechanics or engineering, anything related to medicine… Most things, actually! :) In fact, I would say that I am only very, very good at 1-2 of these intelligences. That definitely keeps me acquainted with humility!

    It makes me appreciate people who can just intuitively understand how to
    fix a car or see a map and translate it into reality, or those who can do a sport with such incredible beauty & ability.

    2) For dating, consider this:
    Supply. Demand.

    Do you think a surgeon or a astrophysicist or (insert scary-smart profession here) is going to be happy *long term* with some dumdum? What kind of woman would he like to escort to work and family events– someone he is proud of and wants everyone to see him with her? The quality guys will want looks AND smarts, in my experience.

    If I were you, I would consider your niche and then focus on it, with laser-like precision. My niche is super-small: I am focused on men of my faith with *exceptional* character. Some guy who is the “status quo” won’t even show up on my radar, because we are looking for *completely different things*. We would never make each other happy.

    You don’t need a million guys. You just need one. That’s it. One guy who is the right match for you. I do hope you find each other soon, PurpleSneakers. :)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Had you ever seen any other actress who refuses to discuss the romantic arc of a character they had played for years? Is not silly they are supposed to know and understand their character motivations, love and fears and they usually discuss this on interviews. I mean why would you interview and actress if she will only tell you what she is doing onscreen and nothing more?

    Honestly, I don’t watch shows where people dish about the romantic arcs of characters they portray, so I couldn’t tell you if her case is singular. But if someone asked me questions about the lives of my characters “off the page”, I would remind them that my characters only live “on the page.”

    There are many reasons to interview an actress, I would think, that have nothing to do with her speculating on the non-existent lives of people she pretends to be in front of a camera.

    Aren’t guys suposedly good at reading body language from women?

    Yea, an actress crossing her legs while being photographed in public says: “I hope the old guy with the pony tail and the high-powered lens isn’t trying to get a shot of my crotch so he can send his kids to college.”

    You really know nothing about acting do you? Fans are the ones that go to your movies when you treat them right. Divas can act as serious as they want to but if the fans reject them their shell life expires really soon.

    I know little about acting and even less about pandering to silly fans who invest too much of their lives in fantasy.

  • Mike C

    Tell you what, Rollo: I’ll date Emma Watson. You date Snooki.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

    A false dilemma (also called false dichotomy, the either-or fallacy, fallacy of false choice, black-and-white thinking, or the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses) is a type of logical fallacy that involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are additional options (sometimes shades of grey between the extremes). For example, “It wasn’t medicine that cured Ms. X, so it must have been a miracle.”

    False dilemma can arise intentionally, when fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice (such as, in some contexts, the assertion that “if you are not with us, you are against us”).

    Incidentally, this comment thread is chock full of fallacies, muddled thinking, and misinterpretation. Carry on.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    But if someone asked me questions about the lives of my characters “off the page”, I would remind them that my characters only live “on the page.”
    So if someone interviewed you about your characters on your novel you will say that?

    I know little about acting and even less about pandering to silly fans who invest too much of their lives in fantasy.

    So you won’t pander to silly fans but take money from them?

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    purplesneakers – I can honestly say that about 1/3 of all men I’ve ever known feel that intelligence is an important trait in a GF/Wife, the other 2/3 just want a woman that can get by with average smarts.

    I never paid attention before, but thinking about it I wonder what similarities the 1/3 shared. (I am part of that 1/3 that likes intelligence. I cannot spend much time with someone that can’t have a decent discussion across a broad range of topics. Yeah, “talking” is important for me in a relationship, and not the “we have to talk” type of talking…) I don’t actively look for smart women, but I also do not spend much time talking to people that don’t demonstrate pretty early on that they have an intellectual side. And, I’ve always said that intelligence is an important trait for a GF/Wife.

    The other 2/3? Well, they often had “hot” girlfriends that I couldn’t stand trying to talk to for more than a few minutes. I even joked on occasion that I couldn’t figure out what they did together when they were alone, and the most common answers I got were usually:
    Watch TV
    Go out to eat/drink
    have sex

    I’m not one to talk about boring, but I don’t really watch much TV. And as much as I enjoy sex, that still leaves an awful lot of awkward silence time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I can honestly say that about 1/3 of all men I’ve ever known feel that intelligence is an important trait in a GF/Wife, the other 2/3 just want a woman that can get by with average smarts.

      I was thinking about this – the 120 question. My dad’s IQ is 145 and I think my mom’s was 121. All three kids are closer to dad, with one of my brothers north of that. My dad was very happy with my mom’s intelligence, I think. But I can remember growing up and being acutely aware that she was not as sharp as the rest of the family. It was something she sensed too, and she was defensive about it, though as far as I can recall, no one ever criticized her. She ridiculed my dad, though, for thinking he was so smart.

      In assortive mating, people date and marry others of similar intelligence. I don’t know if this has gone by the wayside with the rest of assortive mating since the Sexual Revolution.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    There are many reasons to interview an actress, I would think, that have nothing to do with her speculating on the non-existent lives of people she pretends to be in front of a camera.

    Like what? Take in account her personal life is off limits.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Like what? Take in account her personal life is off limits.

    Her professional life, her opinions about the movie industry, films she thinks are good, etc…

  • J

    I’m always astounded when girls don’t realize their innate birthright of beauty, & instead go hacking at their bodies, painting their faces, covering up the smell of their skin with perfume & acting like they’re told to do in the magazines. But of course they can’t. They can’t see what they already have, only what they can put on top of it. They can’t see how their simple, unadorned femaleness appears to men anymore than they can smell their own pheromones.

    That’s because billions of dollars each year are made by telling women that what they naturally have just isn’t good enough.

    Yohami–A question regarding perfume…I love wearing it; It makes me feel feminine. DH hates it. A recent conversation:

    “Good God, J, what are wearing? You smell like sh*t.”
    “That’s odd. It’s Muguet du Bois. I’m supposed to smell like lilies of the valley.”

    I’ve invited my DH numerous times to go out and buy something HE likes; I’d be happy to wear it for him. He’s never taken me up on it.

    Other men have complimented me on my perfumes. Do you guys really hate anything that covers pheremonal scents that much?

  • Jackie

    @Counsel (#658) & Lindsay

    So cool we have Cole Porter fans in the house! :D De-lovely, actually.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    But if someone asked me questions about the lives of my characters “off the page”, I would remind them that my characters only live “on the page.”
    So if someone interviewed you about your characters on your novel you will say that?

    Yup. Or else I’d have them speculate and ask them to provide textual evidence to support their speculations.

    So you won’t pander to silly fans but take money from them?

    I would do neither.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    J,

    If it´s the soft kind I love perfume on a girl.

    “Good God, J, what are wearing? You smell like sh*t.”

    I hope that was playful.

    I’ve invited my DH numerous times to go out and buy something HE likes; I’d be happy to wear it for him. He’s never taken me up on it.

    Doesnt sound like it.

  • J

    As a survivor of childhood trauma and N myself, I agree.

    Lindsay, as the daughter of an N mom, I am surprised that you have admitted to being an N. The realization of one’s having a problem is generally counterindicative of NPD. Were you actually diagnosed? With NPD or N traits? Admitting that a problem exists might actually make you one of the few Ns who could be helped.

  • Jackie

    @WarmWoman & Lindsay

    I, too, have really been glad to “meet” you guys here. :) And I am truly sorry that our commonality (N survivors) isn’t a happier one.

    But I do think that experiencing that kind of difficulties and trauma develops a keen sense of empathy and innate kindness. especially at a young age. You guys definitely have that, for sure. :)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Her professional life, her opinions about the movie industry, films she thinks are good, etc…

    You know the interviews are to make fans excited for Harry Potter movies? How all that will achieve that?

    Yup. Or else I’d have them speculate and ask them to provide textual evidence to support their speculations.

    How many authors interviews had you seen in your life?

    So you won’t pander to silly fans but take money from them?

    So who you think pays her now?

  • Jackie

    @J & Lindsay

    J, children of N’s often have what is termed “inverted narcissism” (from what I’ve read at least). Although I do agree with you: A problem of N is the lack of self-awareness. I am definitely interested in learning more about this.

  • anonymous

    Defining sexy:

    No person can dictate to another what they find sexy. I’m just not getting where Emma is dictating to men what to find sexy when she clearly states
    “Personally, **I don’t** actually think it’s even that sexy.”
    “My idea is that less is more”

    Let’s remember that this is coming from a young woman in an industry that pushes what sells- SEX. Most of us don’t have to dodge the paparazzi nor any cameramen trying to take photos up our skirts.

    I can see though how other women who want to attract males may go wrong with her example, which is why the population of commoners shouldn’t emulate celebrities/people at the apex.
    I’ve known women who despite being given information on how to attract men, refused to make themselves attractive for men and they’ve hurt their SMV/MMV. Don’t know what we can do about that, it’s their choice.

    Also, as mentioned by previous posters, sometimes women have other priorities than focusing on attracting men.

  • J

    I tend toward soft florals and citrusy scents like Shalimar–never anything overpowering, musky or chemical-smelling. And no, that wasn’t playful. It was a complaint; he had hated every perfume I’ve ever worn. Perhaps there’s something wrong with his sense of smell. I threatened to mix up some Eau de Merde to see if it smells like roses to him.

  • Jonny

    “Ms Watson certainly exudes confidence.”

    Sorry, this is incorrect. An attractive woman exudes confidence. They could be in rags without makeup and bald and still attract many men. This doesn’t work if you’re ugly and old.

    Generally, women should have long hair and be thin; however, many women seem to cut their hair and gain weight after getting into a committed relationship. That they take men for granted is a big reason for failed relationships as well as treating themselves badly.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ana,

    My guess is that the production company that hires her pays her.

    I’ve read a great many interviews with authors and I’ve never once come across an interviewer asking an author about the lives of characters outside of the story.

    Watson’s an actress, not a promoter. It’s not her job to get you excited about the movie.

    Anyway, I don’t see how listening to an actress speculate about things that won’t be in the movie can possibly make fans more excited about the movie.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    My guess is that the production company that hires her pays her.

    So the movie goers are not in anyway investing their money on watching her?

    I’ve read a great many interviews with authors and I’ve never once come across an interviewer asking an author about the lives of characters outside of the story.
    The romantic arc is inside the story in this case.

    Watson’s an actress, not a promoter. It’s not her job to get you excited about the movie.

    Promotion is part of the contract when you are acting. If not she wouldn’t interview at all.

    Anyway, I don’t see how listening to an actress speculate about things that won’t be in the movie can possibly make fans more excited about the movie.

    How many actors had you seen interviewed before a movie of them gets released?

  • anonymous

    @purplesneakers

    “I *don’t* feel comfortable ‘being sexy’ the way most girls ‘perform’ ‘sexy’, and which is what most guys my age (college/early 20′s) react to. It feels more like ‘playing at sexy.’ For example– I also wouldn’t feel comfortable in a mini-skirt. ”

    Susan: “she said the worst part was getting hit on, even at 10 in the morning. “Hey, beautiful, coming to our toga party this weekend?” What she termed “normal” guys didn’t seem to notice, so she said it became a real nuisance. Now she gets up, brushes her teeth, throws on Juicy pants and a hoodie and she’s off. Now she is actively deflecting the male gaze when she goes to class, and I can totally understand why.”
    —————–
    What about toning it down?
    For ex- Not a mini-skirt, but a form-fitting skirt just a notch above the knee, low heels, natural make-up, hair not overdone but healthy looking and a smile. Something like a cute semi-professional look.
    What about replacing “sexy” with “joyful (like Susan suggested in the her previous entry)?”

    Isn’t school a great place to find a potential mate, a place with many eligible single men?
    My suggestion is to keep trying different looks until you attract your niche.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Jesus Mahoney
    I’ve read a great many interviews with authors and I’ve never once come across an interviewer asking an author about the lives of characters outside of the story.

    I’ve been following your discussion with Anacaona. I hope it’s all right to butt in . . .

    My experience has been the opposite of yours, JM. There are literally hundreds of interviews with YA authors asking them about the lives of their characters outside the story. And they do reply, with all sorts of non-canonical tidbits that their fans eat up with a spoon. (Remember J.K. Rowling revealing that Dumbledore was gay?) I guess this is just something that young people are interested in, and that those who write for young people are happy to provide.

    (Incidentally, the first time I recall reading an author fielding such a question about a character, the author was J.D. Salinger, the character was Holden Caulfield, and the answer was that Holden had no life outside the text of The Catcher in the Rye. I made sure to share this tidbit with my students when I made them write Holden “Fan Fiction” for a project worth 20% of their grade.)

    It seems to me that the tension between Ana and you at the moment comes from the impression your comments are giving her that if people genuinely loved your books and your characters enough to buy magazines with your interviews in them, and what they really wanted to know was X, Y and Z, that you wouldn’t care about what they wanted from you at all. Sort of like, “You got my book, I got your money, now scram!”

  • J

    Jackie,

    I just looked up the term. Wow!

    “Inverted Narcissist is a term, coined by Sam Vatkin which suggests a type of “dependent disorder” that is the compliment of a narcissistic personality. It is the compliment because someone who is considered an inverted narcissist depends upon a narcissistic personality for their affirmation of their worth, which is ironic since a narcissistic personality is the least likely to affirm their partner.

    To sum it up an inverted narcissist is a Co-dependent whose dependency is the narcissist rather than the drug addict, sex addict or alcoholic. ”

    It sound more to me like an emotional dependency on being with a narcissist than it sounds like having narcissistic traits one’s self. By this definition, I was an inverted narcissist in my teens and 20s. My relationship with my mother lead me to believe that love was something one really had to work for. I never trusted anyone who said they loved me unless I had indeed put in the work. I thought they were either lying or deluded. Because of her narcissism, I could not believe that I was truly lovable, which of course would trigger the neurotic procss of only trying to work harder to get unattainable love.

    I nearly married a narcissist because of this. He has gone on to screw up lives of several other women (and the children he had with them) instead. Bullet dodged!

  • Mike C

    In all honesty, I got a high scored on the Narcissistic Personality Inventory Test. I’m not sure there is such a thing as a blogger without a dose of self-esteem so high it borders on narcissism, so I plead guilty to that. In this case, though, I wasn’t fishing for compliments. I’ve posted my pic here a bunch of times, also my husband and kids. Some of those photos were overlooked by readers, though, who never suspected they were of the Hooking Up Smarts.

    For the record, I thought you looked very pretty in the picture. You have sparkling eyes, and your skin for a 40-year old in that picture is amazing. The hair does nothing for me at all but clearly Mr. HUS likes it so that is all that matters.

    I will agree that individual tastes vary amongst both men and women although there are some broad generally universal preferences. Funny thing, when I met my GF I wore an earring. I stopped wearing it for about a year to a year and a half but I had the urge to put it back in yesterday. She was like “you look so sexy with your earring in”. I’ve got no doubt many women would find the earring a big turnoff

  • anonymous

    PS- not related to the topic.

    Boy do I feel old since every time I see “VD” (venereal disease) it still means STDs to me. LOL
    Constant changing of terms drives me nuts.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Jesus Mahoney
    Anyway, I don’t see how listening to an actress speculate about things that won’t be in the movie can possibly make fans more excited about the movie.

    I’m not a huge fan of modern movie stars, so let me extrapolate from something else . . .

    My favorite band has a YouTube channel showing the members doing ridiculous, random stuff, like building towers out of plastic cups (apparently done to pass the time backstage) or going grocery shopping with each other (obviously a “produced” segment). Nothing to do with the music at all. The uploads come more often in the weeks before a new album is to be released. And although I speak for no other fans but myself, I know it makes me so much more excited about buying the album.

  • AM

    “she said the worst part was getting hit on, even at 10 in the morning. “Hey, beautiful, coming to our toga party this weekend?” What she termed “normal” guys didn’t seem to notice, so she said it became a real nuisance. Now she gets up, brushes her teeth, throws on Juicy pants and a hoodie and she’s off. Now she is actively deflecting the male gaze when she goes to class, and I can totally understand why.”

    Damned if you do, damned if you don’t?

    Boy sees girl, boy likes girl, boy talks to girl, girl complains about getting hit on?

    Boy sees girl, boy likes girl, boy doesn’t want girl to complain about him hitting on her, girl wonders where all the good men are?`

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @AM

      Boy sees girl, boy likes girl, boy talks to girl, girl complains about getting hit on?

      Guys here have described mind-f*cking numerous woman as they walk to work in the morning. Women are not like that. We imagine sex with a favored male and we don’t do it walking to work (at least I never have). We don’t always want to have to look fetching at an early morning class. Sometimes we want to be left alone. Not in life, just first thing in the morning.

      I’d say that if a woman is clearly signaling that she welcomes male interest by dressing a certain way and wearing makeup, etc. then by all means, make your moves. If she’s wearing sweats and a baseball cap, taking notes and not looking around, hold off until she looks more receptive.

  • anonymous

    Yohami: “Funny how feminism can do that while at the same time running slut walks. Be a slut, but make sure you´re non feminine and non attractive. Lol and sad. ”

    There’s actually no contradiction in this.
    The less feminine/attractive a woman is just means she needs to amp up the slut in order to get male attention.

  • AM

    @SW
    ***
    There is definitely an increase in Viagra recreationally, but it’s thought that most people get the drug via the internet or on the street because they don’t want to go to a doctor and feign impotence.

    Here’s a recent article on the connection between potency and porn:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marnia-robinson/no-porn-no-viagra_b_489194.html
    ***

    I’m sorry, where’s the connection? I thought you were all about facts and statistics backing up anecdotal evidence… at least you were on other issues.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @AM

      I’m sorry, where’s the connection? I thought you were all about facts and statistics backing up anecdotal evidence… at least you were on other issues.

      I don’t understand the question. Ted expressed that Viagra is being consumed by guys too drunk to get it up. I’d recently read an article that discusses Viagra use among young men in some depth, and with several interesting links. I linked to it here. What is the problem?

  • anonymous

    Susan: “Here’s an interesting tidbit. My son went to middle school and high school with Cameron Russell. She wore no makeup and was reserved. Susan: “She got no male attention. Once I was driving a group of five 9th grade boys around, and they were talking about who is hot. I asked, “How about Cameron?” They responded unanimously that she was boring and plain, and that she looked like a guy. I could see quite clearly that at 15 she was stunning.
    The popular girls, who everyone wanted to get with, rocked a very slutty vibe. ”

    Not an uncommon occurrence. She’s beautiful.
    A lot of women also lack the ability to see beauty potential in females who aren’t all dolled up (even in themselves).

  • J

    @SW

    If you’ll recall my sexual harassment post, I dealt with many unwanted advances wearing short hair, a navy blue suit and a silk blouse with a big floppy bow under the neck.

    OMG, LMAO!! We all had that frickin’ suit and the matching silk or poly/silk blouse with that big ugly bow that was supposed to be the feminine touch to the outfit. And the tote bag that carried our 1.5 inch heels while we ran to work in our sneakers. I had one ensemble in camel wool that I wore with brown and white spectator pumps. So chic!

    It is a truth universally acknowledged that there is nothing sexier than a 55 year old menopausal woman with a bob.

    HA! Though they may all scoff, we know this to be the truth. Although I am menopausal and wear a bob, I still turn heads. They are just balder than they once were. I’m sure you can say the same.

    One of life’s best kept secrets, and one that ‘sphere guys will insist is BS, is that old broads still attract men. (Perhaps, it’s the Muguet du Bois.) I just want the young’uns to know that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      And the tote bag that carried our 1.5 inch heels while we ran to work in our sneakers. I had one ensemble in camel wool that I wore with brown and white spectator pumps. So chic!

      I wore sneakers with pantyhose walking over the Brooklyn Bridge every morning. Such a bad look! I confess I never got hit on while doing that.

      I had some red and white spectator pumps I used to wear in summer. There was one guy who was pretty awkward, but one day he came into my office and confessed to having a shoe fetish. He asked if he could smell the inside of my shoe. I’m 100% serious. Later I learned he was gay, so I don’t count it among my incidents of sexual harassment :)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Bellita,

    I would be happy to talk to fans about my book, but I would answer honestly. My characters don’t exist. They’re fictional.

    Incidentally, I don’t know who Dumbledore is, though I’m guessing that he’s a character from the Potter series. By calling him “gay” (assuming that fact is never made clear in the novel itself), Rowling is essentially revising the novel, adding more fictional information that will ultimately impact the way the events and relationships w/i the novel itself will be interpreted. That’s cool, but traditionally artists let the work speak for itself.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    ,blockquote>Rollo is selling a strategy that may make men happier but will make women miserable, which is a key part of his objective. I don’t believe it will make men happier if they want relationships, because his methods are relationship-destroying, similar to Roissy’s exhortation to “instill dread.” It’s a band-aid that may get you laid, but it’s highly dysfunctional.

    Never mind the fact that women select for and reward men who use these “relationship destroying” methods. You seem to forget that everything men do to try to get laid and get into relationships is reactive. The sellers are simply giving the buyers what the market demands.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Good Luck Chuck

      Never mind the fact that women select for and reward men who use these “relationship destroying” methods. You seem to forget that everything men do to try to get laid and get into relationships is reactive. The sellers are simply giving the buyers what the market demands.

      I think those methods self-select for women with certain personality traits, including high neuroticism, low agreeableness, low conscientiousness, high novelty seeking and high risk tolerance. A woman who will tolerate a relationship with a consistent undercurrent of dread is not worthy of commitment in the first place.

      I don’t deny that the number of quality women is decreasing, or that it is easy to find a good woman. But the men who would seek to implement Rollo’s advice, if I’m not mistaken, are precisely the men who want LTRs rather than flings, and do not really welcome the idea of getting a bunch of plates spinning in the air just to attract the one woman they really want. It’s one thing to let a woman know you have options – it’s another to communicate that you’re banging two other people while you’re seeing her.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    That was the question I asked last week – when a woman recognizes Game moves, are they less effective? Didn’t you say they are not?

    Yea. I revised my answer. It’s one thing to realize that you’ve been gamed after the fact. Once the emotion has been evoked, then I think understanding how it was done wouldn’t alter it’s affect much. Depending on what we’re talking about, it might even be impressive. But seeing the tactic AS it’s being done (e.g. understanding that you’re being “pushed” before you react to it on an emotional level) would probably lessen it’s effectiveness.

    Does that make sense?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      Yes, it does, thanks for the clarification. I do agree with a lot of the guys who said that well-deployed game would be seamless – not identifiable steps.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @JM
    I would be happy to talk to fans about my book, but I would answer honestly. My characters don’t exist. They’re fictional.

    You hear that? . . . It’s the sound of a thousand fans’ hearts breaking.

    ;)

    But honestly, if you did have a reader who asked you those kinds of questions and you took the time to reply at all, that’s quite a courtesy.

  • J

    Byron,

    I’m always astounded when girls don’t realize their innate birthright of beauty…. They can’t see how their simple, unadorned femaleness appears to men anymore than they can smell their own pheromones.

    I mistook the above as Yohami’s reply to you rather than your reply to Yohami. Please feel free to weigh in on my DH’s dislike of perfume. I’d be interested in your input.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    If the girl is smart that only means she´s screening for smart.

    Lack of game is still lack of game. Intelligent girls are not harder to game. If you´re smart (prequalification) they are *easier* to game.

    That as long as game is not a magic trick but your true persona.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    You hear that? . . . It’s the sound of a thousand fans’ hearts breaking.

    They’ll get over it. :P

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    If you’re smart, then smart girls are easier to attract. But from what little I know of Roissy, he’s dealing in magic tricks.

  • anonymous

    Byron: “I’m always astounded when girls don’t realize their innate birthright of beauty, & instead go hacking at their bodies, painting their faces, covering up the smell of their skin with perfume & acting like they’re told to do in the magazines. But of course they can’t. They can’t see what they already have, only what they can put on top of it. They can’t see how their simple, unadorned femaleness appears to men anymore than they can smell their own pheromones.

    we now are in an age where to simply be what we are born is now dangerous to us, & all our waking efforts are pitted against it.”
    ————————
    I don’t think we are already born with what attracts the opposite sex, not completely. Traditionally, young men and women were taught by the elders how to attract the opposite sex. Rites of passage into adulthood, rituals and customs were passed on showing how to be a good mate and that included becoming physically appealing.

    Wearing ornate jewelry, piercing/altering the body, body painting, wearing tight corsettes, binding feet, stretching ear lobes, wigs, shaving body hair, hair dying, make-up, etc..
    Styles are new, but changing one’s appearance isn’t.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Smart guys are not less attracted to hot girls – but smart guys are screening for more. The hotness is not the problem.

    Similarly smart girls are not less attracted to confident / (game) guys, but smart girls are screening for more.

    A smart guy + game is like a hot girl with brains. Irresistible stuff for the smarties.

  • J

    Completely OT and personal, but where eles am I going to share this?

    I am in a particularly chipper mood right now because I just found a really kick@ss VD gift for my DH–not so easy to do after 20-some VDs together. It’s a Lego set! Of Frank Lloyd Wright’s Fallingwater!! How cool is that??!!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s a Lego set! Of Frank Lloyd Wright’s Fallingwater!! How cool is that??!!

      I’m stealing that for the next birthday!

  • anonymous

    Anacaona: “I do know the feeling of I’m working so hard to achieve X I want a man that has X or X plus but this only works if women never age or loss sexual power. My friend is 33 and a single mother. She cannot ask for a better man than the ones she already went through and in my country this is not a secret. ”

    What do you think were the causes of the current SMP condition in your country and what do you think can fix it?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    Roissy is a smart guy, but yeah, he´s doing magic tricks and twisted mental games. Lots of smart girls are into twisted though.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    J,

    It’s a Lego set!

    Love those.

  • Jackie

    @J
    Hey J!
    I am *soooo* glad you escaped that N– most definitely a bullet dodged. *high five*

    The N in my case is now married to a woman with super-duper low-self-esteem. :( She actually thought she was lucky to be with him. Really really hope they didn’t have kids…

    I think for N (and most other issues) a person has to have the self-awareness to realize their patterns. Familiar != Healthy, for those who have suffered Ns. And then enough time away to heal and do inner work.

    It’s one thing to realize, “OK, this is wrong.” But that doesn’t necessarily tell you what’s right. YKWIM?

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    Cameron Russell looks very much like the female ideal of an Apex female, rather than a male one. Maybe that’s why she’s a VS model. She is selling underclothes to women, after all.

    I’m not saying she’s not attractive. After all, she’s a slender 20-something who makes a living running around in bra and panties. However, despite being in the top 0.001% of women worldwide, Cameron doesn’t have that go-for-the-jugular, take no prisoners sex appeal that the real femmes fatales have.

    Someone will disagree with me, I’m sure, but I don’t think this is a matter of taste.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mule

      Cameron doesn’t have that go-for-the-jugular, take no prisoners sex appeal that the real femmes fatales have.

      She’s quite shy, I wonder if that plays a part. IOW, is that a question of personality, attitude, or looks?

      BTW, her mother is the founder of Zip Car.

  • OffTheCuff

    J: “One of life’s best kept secrets, and one that ‘sphere guys will insist is BS, is that old broads still attract men.”

    Secret? This is totally obvious to me, especially with us constantly being reminded of it all the time, with not-so-subtle hints.

    I agree the “hitting the wall” idea is totally oversold. I just don’t see it happen. Short of gross deformities, women don’t get to the point where they can’t get laid at the drop of a hat. (Bb calls this a “useless superpower”, but plenty of women use it). They might, however, get to the point where nobody fits their criteria, but that’s them selecting men out, not the other way around.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @J and Susan

    I’ve just googled “spectator pumps” . . .

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Susan,

    I think there’s a few things in play there, one of them is that when teenage boys are just waking up sexually for the first time, they look for signs of adult active sexuality in women – the lipstick, hair, etc, – quite cliched things but indicators that separate the women from the girls they’ve just been playing snakes & ladders with the year before. Maybe that accounts for some of the popularity among young boys of those stereotypes. Of course, as we grow older, youth & simple every day beauty become far more valuable, & a fresh faced 19 year old becomes almost painfully radiant.
    Personally, I like the way the girl in the photos looked at high school the best by a long way but I’m prepared to accept that might be just me. The rest of the world being insane & all that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron

      indicators that separate the women from the girls they’ve just been playing snakes & ladders with the year before.

      Ah, that makes total sense. Also, the women trying on adult female sexuality are obviously deliberately sending fertility cues, and must communicate much greater receptivity. The boys are bound to pick up on that, not have an epiphany about the shy, awkward tall girl with no makeup.

      Personally, I like the way the girl in the photos looked at high school the best by a long way but I’m prepared to accept that might be just me. The rest of the world being insane & all that.

      Haha, I know the feeling.

  • J

    My dad’s IQ is 145 and I think my mom’s was 121. All three kids are closer to dad, with one of my brothers north of that. My dad was very happy with my mom’s intelligence, I think.

    That’s because there is actually a smaller functional gap between 80 and 100 than between 120 and 140. IQ tests are less sensitive and accurate in the higher reaches than the lower. One or two missed questions can drop you 10 IQ points. It’s quite possible for scores to vary depending on which form of a test is given. For example, you can gain lose 5 or 10 points on Form A because you’ve never heard the term “dodecahedron, ” but pick up 5 or 10 points on Form B for sucessfully completing an item like pain is to rue like bread is to street. Your knowledge base can count more than your native abilities. In the lower reaches, if you can’t answer simple questions, you’re just screwed.

    Functionally, few of us really need to speak fluent enough French to make word puzzles or know what a dodecahedron is. OTOH, who wants to converse with someone who doesn’t know that puppy is to dog what kitten is to cat?

  • Jackie

    @Bellita
    Hey Bellita!

    Your convo with JM on fan fiction really resonated with me. :) I am home sick today (laryngitis, ugh!) and have been watching Charlotte Gaskell’s “North & South”– it’s an awesome BBC production of the novel. (Susan I think you mentioned watching this upthread, maybe?)

    Anyway, the only thing that makes me sad is knowing that it’s going to end. I would *love* to know more about what happens to the characters outside the text. :)

    If I won the lottery, I would get the BBC to get some awesome fan fiction writer (as CG died about 100 yrs ago) to keep this story going for the next 100 years. North & South rules! Fan fiction folk: Our numbers are legion. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      My husband and I just finished watching North and South this weekend. I loved it, I too wish it would keep going. He liked it enough to go find out more about Elizabeth Gaskell. He also loved the complex portrayal of Thornton. Such a cold man who was able to elicit such empathy in the viewer! Of course, he softens up, a la Mr. Darcy, inspired by his love for a good woman. Now I see why women fuss so much over Richard Armitage.

      I hope you feel better soon. xoxo

  • AM

    @ SW

    It’s just interesting to me. Why spend 45 minutes on your appearance if you don’t want people to notice your appearance, I suppose. Wasn’t sure if the girl was lamenting the attention she was getting (from the undesirables), or the attention she wasn’t getting (from the desirables).

    The viagra part is interesting to me too. I don’t really have a horse in either race, though I don’t really buy the “pornography –> can’t be aroused by REAL women” thinking. However, it just seems you are willing to accept things at face value if they are in line with your preconceptions, and demand studies and statistics from things which are not. Not an unusual behavior at all of course.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @AM

      Wasn’t sure if the girl was lamenting the attention she was getting (from the undesirables), or the attention she wasn’t getting (from the desirables).

      In this case, she was lamenting attention from some frat star, whom most guys here would call a desirable. She didn’t agree. I have no idea what she thought of all the other men who didn’t give her a shout out. It was simply an interesting anecdote. I share them often. All statistics and no stories makes Susan a dull girl.

      However, it just seems you are willing to accept things at face value if they are in line with your preconceptions, and demand studies and statistics from things which are not.

      Sorry, I’m still not understanding. I read stuff, some of which is interesting. I share it. Sometimes it’s studies, sometimes it’s an opinion piece, sometimes it’s a letter from a reader. I don’t demand studies and statistics unless someone is making a claim without citing a source. Did I make a claim without citing a source? If anything, I’m known for citing too many sources, not too few. If you wish to respond, please do so with specific examples, as this general kind of criticism isn’t really helpful.

  • J

    Mule,

    Cameron looks nearly indistinguishable from this girl (http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/not-all-bodies-are-good-bodies/) who Roissy thinks is the hotness…

    I went over to CH because Cameron looked familiar to me and was actually surprised Lina and Cameron were two different models.

    Is there some subtle difference that I’m missing that makes me wish I looked like Cameron or is Roissy just sort of gay?

  • OffTheCuff

    I think Byron nailed it here.

  • AM

    It is all taste of course. She is very beautiful. There are many other beautiful girls. Different men prefer different ones.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I have no idea what my parents’ IQs are, but I’m certain my mom’s is much higher than my dad’s, even when she’s drunk. She’s got a habit of telling people my dad doesn’t know what he’s talking about. And my dad’s got a habit of agreeing with her. And apologizing for it.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Jackie
    I haven’t read North and South yet, but it has been on my radar for years. Everyone I know who has read it raves over it.

    I confess that, for all the fun I’ve had playing devil’s advocate here, I don’t usually wonder about characters outside the text. The only novel that ever made me feel sad when it was over–because I wouldn’t get to follow the characters’ lives any longer–was Christine by Stephen King. That King was able to make me wish the characters had Facebook pages (so that they could be my “friends”–awwww!) really, really impressed me!

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Jackie…totally agree with you about the goodness the Charlotte Gaskell’s “North and South” video (which most Americans who aren’t familiar with it will probably assume is about the Civil War–actually, the title is in reference to the north and south of England). The book on which the movie was based is also excellent.

  • Mike C

    BTW, her mother is the founder of Zip Car.

    Ha. I’ll be damned. I’ve considered it as a long-term short position. I don’t think the business model is viable long-term. Of course, I could be wrong.

  • J

    Jackie

    I am *soooo* glad you escaped that N

    Me too. The break-up of that relationship (I returned his grandmother’s ring; he threatened to kill me.) actually drove me into a period of celibacy and introspection. That crisis precipitated a lot of healing of my childhood stuff. It was weirdly lucky, though I suppose that falling for him in the first place was also inevitable.

    The N in my case is now married to a woman with super-duper low-self-esteem. She actually thought she was lucky to be with him.

    And so it goes…

    It’s one thing to realize, “OK, this is wrong.” But that doesn’t necessarily tell you what’s right. YKWIM?

    All too well. You can unlearn the bad stuff, but learning the good stuff as an adult is very hard. It’s like Remedial Life 99; getting into the 101 course seems insurmountable.

    But heck, it’s doable. I think you’ve done a great job!

  • J

    SW–

    I’d have killed for the red and white pumps–the homosexual shoe fetishist, not so much.

    The Lego set came from Barnes and Noble, but I’m sure you can get it on line direct from Lego as well.

  • Jackie

    @Bellita

    I must say, I never would have pegged you for a Stephen King fan! ;) _Christine_ is the book about the demonically possessed car, right? I think I read it a looong time ago…

    If you feel comfortable sharing, what was it about that particular book that captivated you into that storyworld? I remember being scared by King and *grossed out* by his horror at time. I read ‘Salem’s Lot late at night and kept the lights on, as I was completely freaked out by the vampires tapping at the window, begging to come in…

    PS: I have started _Middlemarch_ after reading your blog. :D

  • Jackie

    @david foster (#802)

    So nice to see another person here with exemplary tastes. :) If you have any book recommendations, based off CG or N&S, I would be incredibly obliged to hear your choices or opinions.

    (BTW, the mill, union and 19th century griminess reminded me a lot of Dickens, without the melodrama. I have the BBC adaptation of _Bleak House_ coming up soon on Netflix. Supposedly that is quite good as well.)

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Jackie

    Well, I’m not really a King fan. But it was October and I felt like a Horror novel . . . Hahahaha!

    But seriously, Christine did not disappoint! I’m not sure exactly why it affected me so much. It had something to do with the story being told in first person: the moment I read the last sentence, I already missed the narrator’s “voice.” But I’ve read other novels told in first person before, and none of them moved me in the same way. Dennis just seemed so real. Part of me still can’t believe that I can’t hire a private detective to track him down and find out what he’s doing these days.

    Now you remind me that the King novel that really freaked me out was Needful Things, which is about a store where you can sell your soul in exchange for something you think you want more. After reading it, I wouldn’t go shopping for a month! :P

    PS–Yay for Middlemarch! Please feel free to leave comments in any of the old read along posts. I love discussing good books with people! :)

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    @J and @AM -

    I’m 60, so my visceral reaction to beautiful young women in their 20s has an element of nostalgia in it. Men’s sexuality, despite all the kerfuffle about how “simple” it is, is really quite complex.

    There are generic beautiful women that all men, ALL MEN IN CAPITALS, see as beautiful/cute/sexy, this is why we even have models, actresses, etc. They ‘broadcast’ to a wide spectrum of men. I think Roissy put one of these generically beautiful women into his post rather than his own personal Jungian Anima so that the spectrum of agreement would be as wide as possible. He was contrasting Generically Beautiful with the laughable and ridiculous idea that All Women Are Beautiful In Their Own Way [not true, any more than All Men Are Dateable, and get to unilaterally declare themselves so].

    I have never been in the position where I had to choose between Generically Beautiful and the Manic Pixie Brunette Dream Girl who is my own personal weakness, so I don’t know how I would pick. Maybe Roissy would call me a gay Beta loser for not Gaming up and making an attempt with the Consensus Boner, and maybe I should post a picture of my wife when I met her (think Kristin Kruek with darker hair. Some men would get it, others would fault me. I just know I got what I wanted.

    There is a lot of latitude in what men find sexy. A lot. At the top of the pyramid are a number of women that all men find attractive. ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION. I don’t know how quickly or steeply the pyramid falls away, but I do know that the father down you go, the more idiosyncratic tastes play a part, and you’re going to have less consensus, and thus, less drawing power if you’re using your looks to sell something.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    Thanks so much for the good wishes! :)

    I’ve just gotten to the part where she rejects Richard Armitage’s marriage proposal. (NOOOO!) :(

    I was thinking that Thornton is in many ways one of those overlooked “betas” that we should be looking for. He’s like an anti-player: Deliberately blunt and SO not smooth, but incredible integrity and devotion to his family. I think integrity means SO much to him that he can’t see any other way, and that black-or-white thinking can make him seem harsh at times. And his mom– imagine her for a mother-in-law! ;)

    PS: Remember that promiscuous acquaintance I mentioned (40+ guys)? Interestingly, she *loved* P&P and I found it so amazing that someone who was so casual about sharing her body would be captivated by a film/book where we have to wait 5 episodes (and a marriage proposal!) to FINALLY see a kiss. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      My favorite moment in N&S is when he says, “Look back at me.” It sent tingles up and down my whole body. I think it’s in Episode 3. Report back when you’ve seen it!

  • J

    @OTC

    I agree the “hitting the wall” idea is totally oversold. I just don’t see it happen. Short of gross deformities, women don’t get to the point where they can’t get laid at the drop of a hat.

    And yet, when the schadenfraude in the ‘sphere gets so thick that I can’t stand it and I feel the need to bring up the fact that men of my generation still find my fat, menopausal @ss attractive, I’m told to go feed my hamster.

    Oh, the humanity!

  • AM

    I had a major crush on Kristin Kreuk since high school, a crush which probably hasn’t been matched since, so please – post away! :D

  • Jackie

    @J
    Hey again, J!

    “The break-up of that relationship (I returned his grandmother’s ring; he threatened to kill me.)”…

    YIKES. Your rejection probably felt like death to him — piercing his delusion probably threatened his very existence as an N. He was probably just reacting the only way N’s know how. :( SOOOO glad you got out.

    ” You can unlearn the bad stuff, but learning the good stuff as an adult is very hard. It’s like Remedial Life 99; getting into the 101 course seems insurmountable.

    But heck, it’s doable. I think you’ve done a great job!”

    Thanks! Coming from a fellow N survivor, your compliment means *heaps*. :D

  • Butterfly Flower

    Incidentally, the first time I recall reading an author fielding such a question about a character, the author was J.D. Salinger, the character was Holden Caulfield, and the answer was that Holden had no life outside the text of The Catcher in the Rye. I made sure to share this tidbit with my students when I made them write Holden “Fan Fiction” for a project worth 20% of their grade.

    Gosh, my English teacher gave me that assignment too! It was an exercise for writing in first person. [I got an A :) I've been keeping a diary since I was twelve - that's one of the best ways to hone your first-person writing skills]

    It’s just interesting to me. Why spend 45 minutes on your appearance if you don’t want people to notice your appearance, I suppose

    Maybe her hair takes a long time to blow-dry? My hair is quite thick, it takes at least a half-hour. So even if I walk out in sweatpants, I still took a half-hour to get ready.

  • Jackie

    @Bellita

    OK, that’s it! I want to re-read _Christine_ now. ;) Dennis was the best friend of the nerdy Arnie, right?

    And _Needful Things_? That was seriously creepy. It’s so interesting: it’s just a re-telling of Faust’s bargain, selling your soul to the devil. There should be some kind of “Fiction Tropes” website, like “TV Tropes” to fill us in on this stuff!

    Anyway, I will see you over @ bloggingbellita! :)

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    @AM

    Here’s Kirstin, in a pose that both my wife and I find very Mrs. Mule-like.

    Mrs. Mule in 1977 in a very Kristin Kruek-like, albeit blurry, shot

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan – “but it’s thought that most people get the drug via the internet or on the street because they don’t want to go to a doctor and feign impotence.”

    My bad, I missed the distinction of “prescribed” Viagra. I am pretty sure you are right that most college age guys are not pretending to have erectile dysfunction to get pills for drunk sex.

    So now I’m wondering why guys are apparently watching more porn than ever before. Yeah, I know, the internet makes it easy. But honestly, my friends had plenty of older brothers with great video collections, and we really didn’t spend too much time watching them even though we had access. It was more fun to be out goofing off.

  • J

    YIKES. Your rejection probably felt like death to him — piercing his delusion probably threatened his very existence as an N. He was probably just reacting the only way N’s know how.

    Yeah, thank God he hit the wall (literally) and not me. I ran like hell. I think you are correct in that my rejection was a death to him. Oddly, perhaps because of my relationship with my mother and my guilt over hurting him, we continued to talk off and on, for decades. He would try periodically to get back together, but I learned to set boundaries. This was helpful later on when I began settting boundaries with my mom. I think I was the only woman who ever really understood him until he met his current wife.

    Thanks! Coming from a fellow N survivor, your compliment means *heaps*.

    I wouldn’t say it if I didn’t mean it.

  • anonymous

    Mule Chewing Briars: ” Maybe Roissy would call me a gay Beta loser for not Gaming up and making an attempt with the Consensus Boner”

    LOL
    Consensus Boner?
    Is it AKA preselection?
    ha ha ha

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Jackie….you might enjoy some of the series and mini-series videos discussed at this post.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    I think those methods self-select for women with certain personality traits, including high neuroticism, low agreeableness, low conscientiousness, high novelty seeking and high risk tolerance. A woman who will tolerate a relationship with a consistent undercurrent of dread is not worthy of commitment in the first place.

    There is some self selection but not nearly to the degree that most people believe. These kinds of ideas are an extension of the whole “game only works on low self esteem bar sluts” nonsense.

    As a woman you automatically misinterpret or reinterpret Rollo’s message to mean something much more sinister than it is. Women spin plates mercilessly, but that’s ok….they maintain plausible deniability so it flies under the radar and we don’t even talk about it. Just because it looks better on the surface doesn’t mean that it is any less “damaging” to the opposite sex.

    I don’t deny that the number of quality women is decreasing, or that it is easy to find a good woman. But the men who would seek to implement Rollo’s advice, if I’m not mistaken, are precisely the men who want LTRs rather than flings, and do not really welcome the idea of getting a bunch of plates spinning in the air just to attract the one woman they really want. It’s one thing to let a woman know you have options – it’s another to communicate that you’re banging two other people while you’re seeing her.

    It doesn’t matter what ideas men welcome, we aren’t the ones who have to say yes to sex so we either have to play whatever rules are in force or go home empty handed.

    The fact that the number of quality women are decreasing is precisely the reason why men are forced into this dog and pony show. If rampant hypergamy and soft polygamy are becoming the norm you either have to get with the program or you get left out. If women reward men for what you consider to be poor behavior don’t be surprised when men encourage other men to do what it takes to get what they want.

    You and some of the other women here are unique in that you understand that there are big problems in the SMP which is good, but the unfortunate thing is that you are pointing the finger in the wrong place. As long as you continue to blame the sellers for giving the buyers what they want there won’t be any change.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Good Luck Chuck

      There is some self selection but not nearly to the degree that most people believe. These kinds of ideas are an extension of the whole “game only works on low self esteem bar sluts” nonsense.

      The information about female personality traits that correlate with attraction to Dark Triad traits are from the Evo Psych literature, and has nothing to do with Game.

      As for the bar sluts concept, it’s a simple fact that Mystery developed Game to attract “hired guns.” Not just women hanging out in bars, but women working in them, including strippers. To claim that these women represent women in general is truly nonsense. In any case, several PUAs have written about tiring of the slutty women that respond to Game in bars, and how they had to stop acting like a player to attract a woman they would consider for a relationship.

      Women spin plates mercilessly, but that’s ok….they maintain plausible deniability so it flies under the radar and we don’t even talk about it. Just because it looks better on the surface doesn’t mean that it is any less “damaging” to the opposite sex.

      To clarify, I have no objection to anyone dating multiple people until a relationship becomes exclusive. I object specifically to the idea that it is a good idea to have multiple sexual partners at one time, for a number of reasons. I don’t condone it for women any more than for men, but I think it is reprehensible if it is not disclosed 100% up front. Actually, the only double standard I support is the sexual double standard for men, though I also encourage women to reject manwhores. Everything else I judge applies equally to both sexes.

      As long as you continue to blame the sellers for giving the buyers what they want there won’t be any change.

      I’m all for shaming sluts of both genders. Let them get with each other. I blame a female slut for lying about her number to get with a less experienced guy once she’s sick of being dumped. I blame a player for lying about his intentions, including pressuring a woman for sex early so she won’t know he wants a relationship.

      Let’s just stop all the head games. It is not going to produce healthy relationships.

  • J

    Interesting post, Mule. So much to respond to.

    I think Roissy put one of these generically beautiful women into his post rather than his own personal Jungian Anima so that the spectrum of agreement would be as wide as possible.

    I would love to see Roissy’s own personal anima. I’d bet there is a lot of unintegrated feminine in Roissy’s personality. I wounder what sort of woman would be invoked by that or attracted to that.

    He was contrasting Generically Beautiful with the laughable and ridiculous idea that All Women Are Beautiful In Their Own Way

    I find Roissy’s notion of the generically Beautiful really interesting. There was a period of time in which Roissy published a lot of photos where hundreds of young women were “averaged” into a composite photo of one woman who represented her ethnic group. The result was an ethereally beautiful face that looked like everyone and no one. For example, his Miss Israel looked a lot like Miss Italy or Miss Greece, but even had some resemblance to Miss Denmark or even Miss Chad in basic facial structure. However, Miss Israel did not look like Natalie Portman, who may be the most beautiful woman to actually ever have born in Israel. Miss Israel was amazing, but I have never seen anyone who actually looked like her. Natalie, while less beautiful, looks like a real woman. She has her own face, though you might actually run into someone who resembles her. (Like Keira Knightly.) Roissy’s Misses all look unreal somehow.

    Maybe Roissy would call me a gay Beta loser for not Gaming up and making an attempt with the Consensus Boner, and maybe I should post a picture of my wife when I met her (think Kristin Kruek with darker hair. Some men would get it, others would fault me. I just know I got what I wanted.

    I couldn’t get your links to work, but I googled Kristin Kreuk. A very pretty woman, but she has flaws that make her, you know, her.

    There is a lot of latitude in what men find sexy. A lot. At the top of the pyramid are a number of women that all men find attractive. ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION. I don’t know how quickly or steeply the pyramid falls away, but I do know that the father down you go, the more idiosyncratic tastes play a part,

    So it sounds likethat if a woman is not a supermodel, she has to be soneone’s anima figure. What would actually explain a lot to me.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “Some men would get it, others would fault me. I just know I got what I wanted.”

    Really nice post, Mule.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    J,

    It was a complaint; he had hated every perfume I’ve ever worn. Perhaps there’s something wrong with his sense of smell.

    No.. The perfume thing is a good example of what I was talking about: Perfume is one of those things which seem to matter very much to women, & very very little to men, yet women en masse seem to believe they are leading a man around by the nose every time they spray it on. I know personally I’ve never liked it at all, in fact I’d go so far as to say I hate it, but I find it hard to believe there has ever been any man who was attracted to any woman simply because of her perfume, regardless of what the perfume ads would have you think.

    I think what is much more likely is that men who are attracted to a woman come to associate that particular smell with her, & feel a fondness for it when they encounter it in future. There’s probably an aspect of formative memories from early life having an influence on some men too, the way some girls like a type of aftershave because an older man she liked wore it when she was a girl.

    For me though, all those overpowering chemical smells do is get in the way of the real honey, which a woman I desire is making all the time & wearing all over her body. Which to me is priceless, & which drives me mad & I can’t get enough of. But which, of course, she can’t smell at all.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      For me though, all those overpowering chemical smells do is get in the way of the real honey, which a woman I desire is making all the time & wearing all over her body. Which to me is priceless, & which drives me mad & I can’t get enough of. But which, of course, she can’t smell at all.

      I’ve read that both sexes are unable to exercise their natural abilities to select certain pheromones because even if we don’t wear perfume, we come in contact with so many fragranced products each day. Every soap, including hand, body, shampoo, laundry, shaving cream, deodorant. We’re creating a lot of olfactory roadblocks, and it is having an effect on mate selection.

  • anonymous

    Good Luck Chuck: “If rampant hypergamy and soft polygamy are becoming the norm you either have to get with the program or you get left out. If women reward men for what you consider to be poor behavior don’t be surprised when men encourage other men to do what it takes to get what they want.”

    Yes. More sluts = more cads, which encourages more cads and in turn encourages more sluts.
    Even if people are dissatisfied with the status quo and complain incessantly, they’ll simply adjust rather than change strategies.

    Short-term mating strategies becoming more prevalent for both;
    - those who are delaying marriage
    but also for those who are
    - evading marriage altogether and those who have lost all hope that long-term relationships are possible.

  • J

    I’m all for shaming sluts of both genders.

    IME, shaming people tends to solidify, not extinguish bad behavior. For example, I would bet every fat acceptance activist was once shamed for being fat. And every slutwalker, who wants to “take back” and re-define the term “slut,” has already been shamed as well. Shaming just people more vehement and irrational.

    I really never have understood the ‘sphere’s insistence on shaming people. I just don’t get it.

    Let them get with each other.

    Well, they generally do anyhow. But co-signed.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    I have one male friend who loves my perfume. He claims to have been awaken by what he thought was the smell of my perfume after falling asleep in a chair.

    That’s sweet.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @anonymous

    Short-term mating strategies becoming more prevalent for both;
    - those who are delaying marriage
    but also for those who are
    - evading marriage altogether and those who have lost all hope that long-term relationships are possible.

    Count me (and many others) among the latter. And I do see the short-term strategies becoming more & more prevalent. Even among teens. Even among middle-aged men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And I do see the short-term strategies becoming more & more prevalent. Even among teens. Even among middle-aged men.

      Oh boy, I’m hearing stories of 60 year old men telling women I know they want “multiple” – no exclusivity.

  • J

    More on smells….

    I’ve read that men find vanilla and pumpkin pie spice irresistible. My son actually will open up a bottleof vanilla and sniff it.

    Perhaps before women go clubbing, they should dab vanilla and pie behind their ears and their own secretions on their wrists. The combo would drive men insane. ;-)

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    I do like vanilla, it’s true, & the smell of fresh lavender. Cocoa butter. Coffee & milk… Nice real smells of real things from the real world. Anything not full of chemicals & skunk urine, really.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Susan

    Oh boy, I’m hearing stories of 60 year old men telling women I know they want “multiple” – no exclusivity.

    Don’t know about 60-year-olds, but my recent MGTOW news involved men in their 40s and two teens (one in high school, one in college).

    Not too relevant though – it doesn’t quite involve a discussion of sexiness.

    All that said, those 60 year old men should be very careful. Especially when it comes to exclusivity.

  • Passer_By

    Apoligies to Susan’s head shot, but I’m not a fan of the pixie cut. A woman with very delicate features can pull it off, but even that woman would look better with longer hair.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      Join the club!
      Susan’s Pixie Cut: 0
      Any other hairstyle: 43

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Susan,
    I have to say your post at 823 is excellent. I’m 100% behind almost all of it. Just two quick things:

    Again, I disagree. We want that competition, and we want to win it. That’s the real prize.

    If I’m not mistaken, I believe you’re referring to intrasexual competition here. I know I’ve been around these parts for some time, but I still can’t get past the notion that intrasexual competition has become a horrible, monster social construct. I know it’s rooted in biology, which is something I never knew before I found HUS, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that I think it’s become much more intense and ferocious in recent decades. I said this before and I’ll say it again: if feminists really want to do something great for women, I think they should discourage intrasexual competition. I don’t get the big appeal of fighting with a bunch of women over a man.

    I’m trying to encourage women to select the men for sex that are most likely to be available for relationships.

    This is an honorable goal. I think various men take issue with this notion only because they feel the vast majority of women are not suitable for relationships. I used to think that position was bogus, but now I’m not so sure.

    My brother has managed to collect several followers in recent years, and he has zero interest in any of them. The other night he told me “It’s not like I have ridiculously high standards here,” a sort of frustrated remark about the fact that while he doesn’t think his standards are all that high, he doesn’t see very many women his age who he thinks are worth the effort. In other words, his standards are actually very high, relative to the caliber of college-age women surrounding him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      Thanks for the feedback. Yes, when we win a man’s heart, mind and penis, we have competed successfully against all other women for him. That sweetens the victory. It’s why preselection is powerful, though not as all-powerful as some would think. We don’t need to think we won out over a bunch of other women, but that we were singled out by him from among all women. He does the sorting, so we don’t necessarily have to battle for his affections. I agree that female intrasexual competition can get very ugly, and it manifests itself from about age 2 on.

      I think various men take issue with this notion only because they feel the vast majority of women are not suitable for relationships.

      Can you say a bit more about this? I’m not familiar with this objection.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    I want to apologize for going after you yesterday about Rollo. I was already grouchy about women, and already a little annoyed at Susan for bringing up said grouchiness, and your one comment set me off. Having said that, I still think your visceral reaction to Rollo and refusal to acknowledge him as an individual interested in discussion is… interesting. In the same way you find my tolerance of assholes/willingness to go after women I have a problem with interesting. :-P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      I was already grouchy about women, and already a little annoyed at Susan for bringing up said grouchiness

      Which was me being annoyed at Yohami’s indirect shaming tactics….

      To be perfectly honest, I do think you are understandably frustrated with other women right now, and your commentary reflects that. It’s fine, we know you well enough to understand the context. But we would probably disagree regarding the % of bitches to total women.

  • Sassy6519

    On the discussion of scents and smell, I have a few tidbits to add.

    The idea of aroma imprinting has been very true for me. My father, even though he was not perfect, wore old spice when I was growing up. Now, Old Spice is probably the top smell, for me, that can be worn by a guy. Being exposed to it when I was younger probably left a lasting impression on me.

    On another note, the topic of pheromones reminded me of something. I’ve read somewhere that every woman should intentionally wear her natural musk, at least once, when going out. This particular piece advised women to dab their vaginal secretions behind their ears, like perfume. Supposedly, it has a great effect on nearby men, even faintly. I don’t know if anyone else has also heard this tidbit, but it sounds fascinating. It’s definitely a way to cut through all the scented products we come in contact with.

  • Tom

    sexy is in the eye of the beholder, and even that opinion can change….”I`m sexy and I know it”…lol

  • deti

    @ Susan:

    You seem to be getting flyspecked on this.

    “We want that competition, and we want to win it. That’s the real prize.”

    I think I agree with this. (R0ll0′s right too, but I digress….) The rub is that I don’t think women want to face up to the fact that they want to be made to work for a man’s attraction. I think it’s women who want to compete for and win a man’s heart. I suspect what you are talking about here is qualifying.

    When I was dating, I was explicitly told by everyone around me that it was I, not the woman, who was to do the pursuing, the attracting, the qualifying. I was told I had to do all the work to earn the heart of a woman, who was permitted to preen on her pedestal while I ratcheted up a sweat. I suspect that’s the point of the “The Threat” quote you put up. And what I was told was BS. It rarely got me anywhere.

    I know now what was happening. I was told to jump through the hoops, put on the show, and qualify the hell out of myself, so the women could act as selectors and judge me while being relieved of qualifying themselves to me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Deti

      The rub is that I don’t think women want to face up to the fact that they want to be made to work for a man’s attraction. I think it’s women who want to compete for and win a man’s heart.

      Yes, feminism has definitely created vast entitlement in women. The unique snowflake syndrome is pervasive, and I’ve witnessed many women who are middling attractive refer to themselves as super hot. I even see it at the gym among women in their 40s.

      The other problem is that women have been taught the wrong lessons, just as men have. We have been shamed for being feminine, and admitting to aspiring to domesticity quickly brings down the wrath of women on your shoulders.

      Feminism has send us back to the Dark Ages in terms of understanding the attraction triggers of the opposite sex.

  • J

    Anything not full of chemicals & skunk urine, really.

    Yeah, I find chemical and animal scents gross, too.

  • purplesneakers

    Jackie – thank you for that very sweet comment! It brightened my day. :)
    I think you are right about needing to find my ‘niche.’ I also know I just need to get out there and meet more people, and not let myself get into a rut because of previous bad experiences. Dating is exhausting.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Susan,

    That is so interesting. I wonder if men can teach women this, or even if it’s always men who teach women this.

    I’m not sure. I think it’s important to note that for many women, being sexy in a relationship is much different than being sexy and looking for a relationship. When you have someone who loves and appreciates you in jeans, you feel sexier in jeans. Maybe that’s the key: in order to be sexy, you have to feel sexy. And feeling sexy changes the way you behave (and isn’t that what the guys are saying? that sexy isn’t just about popped out boobs?).

    Confidence/sexiness, low self-esteem/sluttiness… it’s all coming together now.

    I don’t remember that – I thought you just approached him. Can you share it again? I’m wondering how acting slutty to attract him didn’t get you put on the short-term only ladder, particularly as you said (I think) that he was a virgin?

    We both were. But I approached him drunk at a bar and took him home after. Pure ONS-slutty (without the sex).

    The next day (during the day) we were hanging out with some mutual friends and I approached him again. I don’t really know how it ended up becoming more, but boy am I glad! ;-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      Maybe that’s the key: in order to be sexy, you have to feel sexy. And feeling sexy changes the way you behave (and isn’t that what the guys are saying? that sexy isn’t just about popped out boobs?).

      You have a way of cutting through the muck and getting to the message. One of my first comments in this thread was about this – in particular that women are sexy when they feel sexy. This gets dangerously close to “women are the arbiters of what is sexy,” which is a no-no, but I do think that arousal in women depends on many factors, including her feelings about herself. (Contrast the woman who prances about naked to the one who won’t get out of bed without wrapping a sheet around herself.) I imagine that an aroused woman is sexier than an indifferent one – my husband really gets off on my being aroused – but perhaps this is not universal.

      Pure ONS-slutty (without the sex).

      Is that all you got?! I hate to break it to you, but if it’s without sex, it’s not slutty! I guess if it was “everything but” that’s a bit slutty, but honestly, your brief forays into “sluttiness” have been minimal. I think you should feel very good about the choices you have made.

  • purplesneakers

    re: Cameron Russell. She’s absolutely stunning, and I have no idea were this ‘women think she’s an apex beauty, but men don’t’ is coming from, but of course, I don’t have male genitalia.

    I know that game/manosphere bloggers are in general very insistent that they’re ‘true arbiters of beauty’ or whatever, but I find that they also sometimes fall for the same trap of not recognizing facial beauty when a woman is dressed down, in favor of the woman who makes herself more clearly sexually available. example: roosh’s forum (which I will admit to sometimes looking at out o