Defining Sexy

Yea, Emma Watson sounds like an attractive person. And personally, I think she looks drop dead gorgeous in that photo.

…and yeah, it’s easy to say “I”m not trying to be sexy” when you’re as young an beautiful as Emma Watson. She doesn’t have to try. She just is.

Hard to judge from the excerpt how full of joy she is. We’re given a glimpse into what she doesn’t like. That’s all. We’d have to assume that there’s more to her personality than not wanting to be a public sex symbol.

As for the make up, I like the way it makes her eyes stand out. And she’s got nice lashes, or else nice fake lashes. The short hair doesn’t particularly do much for me beyond revealing the neck, but it doesn’t turn me off.

Olsen

http://www.google.com.ar/search?hl=es&cp=11&gs_id=d&xhr=t&q=elizabeth+olsen&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHJL_esAR452AR452&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&biw=1234&bih=597&ion=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=45U1T_uNOMGu0AHP5MW9Ag

Excluding the short hair Watson looks great.

Yohami–I think your problem with Emma is that she looks serious; Elizabeth Olsen looks happy and easy to make happy. As we discussed a thread or two back, men like happy.

J

That’s interesting. What’s odd is that I think one of the things I find more appealing about the Emma picture is her seriousness.

Yohami,
Sounds good. But you and Olsen get the couch.

Yohami,

It’s the vulnerability that’s doing it for you. Obvious from looking at that last Olsen picture. Watson still looks full of wonder.

So interesting, because the picture doesn’t repel my gaze at all, nor do I believe it was intended to do so. I see sexiness with a dash of independence, a sprinkle of disaffectedness, and a cup and a half of intelligence.

This should be good for at least 500+ comments

It’s the vulnerability that’s doing it for you. Obvious from looking at that last Olsen picture. Watson still looks full of wonder.

Yohami, I’d have said this has JM not beaten me to it.

.I see sexiness with a dash of independence, a sprinkle of disaffectedness, and a cup and a half of intelligence

Me too. ELizabeth Olsen, in contrast, looks less bright.

JM: Slutty is like the cubic zirconia of sexy.

+3. A real gem, you might say.

@Mike C.
“This should be good for at least 500+ comments”

Yeah, but we’ll probably see lots of pictures with people’s different visions of pretty vs. beautiful vs. cute vs. hot

I also agree with VD. Emma’s Watson’s cut, while still attractive, does seem to be an attempt to deflect the dreaded “male gaze”.

modernguy

“Sexy” is largely a function of having fewer opinions and thoughts. [etc]

You´ve got issues.

Also see: http://www.reddit.com/r/EmmaWatson/top/?sort=top&t=all

Aside from the top link and a few others, you can see what she looks like with longer hair.

Hair can always grow back out…

Yeah I have a slight bit of girl crush on her.

@Yohami, you only think she looks stiff because you haven’t seen her various expressions.

http://i.imgur.com/oYeJm.jpg

By the way, I suspect the haircut is also a calculated business move. She deliberately did a pixie cut because otherwise she would be pigeonholed as “Hermione” for the rest of her acting career, thus her career would be over as soon as the Harry Potter series were over.

It generated shock and publicity, but not in a “sex tape” way — it was actually her way of gaining more female fans. Clearly girls love her pixie cut, because now she is less of a sex symbol. An actress has to choose her path early on, whether to be a sex symbol or to be taken “seriously” for her acting credentials. Emma Watson took her gamble, and it paid off because now she no longer looks like Hermione. She looks like “Emma.”

That is not to say I prefer the short pixie cut, but just giving some perspective about the way these things work in advertising, business and show biz.

Susan, when did you act?

I agree with what Watson says, though I do dislike really short hair. She would look better if she just grew it out, she doesn’t have to dress like a hooker.

Oh, and, slutty is always sexy definitely does not apply to me. I really hate the slut look. I don’t care how much it reveals, it’s a massive turn-off for me most of the time.

VD,

Idk. I usually don’t dish about women with gay men, but I’ll take your word for it.

If Watson and Hepburn are pretty, why would they appeal more to gay men?

That’s why women do it when they want to appear most beautiful and elegant.

I wonder if men like that. I personally hate hair up. if you remember my wedding pic I used my hair down I don’t think I ever though to myself “I want to wear my hair up and I will feel prettier/sexier” In fact I don’t think I have more than two pics taken with my hair up.

I wonder if men like that. I personally hate hair up. if you remember my wedding pic I used my hair down I don’t think I ever though to myself “I want to wear my hair up and I will feel prettier/sexier” In fact I don’t think I have more than two pics taken with my hair up.

I *LOVE* an up-do especially kind of in the contour of sort of ponytailish.

” Wow, you’re sensitive. Who said I got offended? I hope you find a woman who loves kids and cold cereal, bro. Nice to see you aiming high.”

You obviously were, and still are. Anyway loves kids and cold cereal sounds pretty good. Something like a kindergarten teacher. Who are you looking for, a Condoleeza Rice?

@Anacanoa, I really don’t care enough about the fight. I think they’re both pretty. I personally couldn’t pull off any of those looks. If I try to do anything except a normal smile, I look ridiculous.

There you go Mahoney you were right all along and you didn’t even know it.

@Mike C
Do women want to be more beautiful for men or other women?

I don’t know about the average non-celebrity woman, but I can see why a famous actress, model or singer would want to be more beautiful for other women.

This discussion of Emma reminds me of UK pop star Frankie Sandford. When she started out as a young teenager, she had long hair and appealed to young boys and girls alike. After she entered her twenties and joined a different girl group, she cut her hair really short. It was a pretty good strategic move because all the other four girls in the group have really long hair. That makes Frankie instantly the most recognizable one. I think this different, “edgy” look is the reason she has even more female fans than male ones. Of course the men would prefer her with long hair, but she has a career to think of, too.

Do women want to be more beautiful for men or other women?

Me? Women by far, but not for the reasons hetero women do. For every 5 men I find hot, I find 95 women hot. So I understand the male gaze more than people give me credit for – academically AND biologically. I like high femmes, and that’s not common in the GLBT world. I like women more feminine than myself, in fact, so dating is harder for me than for the guys of HUS. The women I’m attracted to will pick you over me, aside from a rare, drunken moment to attract a guy, and I don’t like fake lesbians. They hurt my feelings, and I don’t enjoy making displays in public, either – it seems cheap to me personally. I’m probably a 4.5 out of 6 on the Kinsey, if 6 is they gayest. My husband’s probably a 1 or 1.5 if 0 is the straightest. Our arrangement works out b/c we’re perfectly suited to each other emotionally, and we both get to date women too. He can have more/rougher P-in-V sex, which isn’t my favorite, and I can have oral and tribadism with someone who has “equipment” he lacks.

I HATE the Kardashian/Jersey Shore look, I gotta say. In fact, I hate orange skin generally. I had a friend who’s Spanish (from Spain, alas she has since moved away from me and to Brooklyn) and naturally brown, and she’s so much hotter than the white American chick fake-bake look. Props to Susan for keeping her skin real. Don’t tan if you don’t have the coloring, ladies. It ages you faster than ANYTHING else.

Re: Short hair vs. long hair, in terms of practicality, it’s not just about face shape. I have the face shape for short hair, but not the hair type for it. Susan mentioned having fine hair, and I couldn’t say if that hair-type works well cut short or grown out. My own hair, after puberty, blew out into a big, frizzy, wavy puff (I’m white, but I use exclusively black hair-care products, to give you an idea), because my family is Italian and Jewish, and that’s just the hair type we have. My brother’s hair did the same thing at puberty, as did my mom’s, grandpa’s, aunt’s, grandma’s, etc. Only my pops has fine, straight hair.

I tried a pixie during my punk days, and oh jeez, was it work to keep it looking decent. I wanted so badly to have a cute, spiky ‘do like Joan Jett or Billy Idol, but with curly hair, if I didn’t flatten it out within an inch of its life with extra-strength hair glue, or it happened to be humid that day, I wound up looking like a clown. Or a poodle, depending on your opinion.

Starting in my mid-20s, I grew my hair to slightly past my shoulders, and cut it in long layers to remove some of the frizz and heft. Before I began layering it, I also looked like a poodle. It works. I can’t go much longer, like Susan, but for opposite reasons – my hair will break off or form white-girl dreadlocks, which are so not cool. But wearing it down is just too much work – it involves conditioning it 3-4 times in the shower, straightening it manually, and usually, blow-drying it, which also causes it to break off. For best results, I have to treat it with pure coconut oil (seriously, it’s a tub of grease), and that gets messy and annoying.

So I wear it up. Men seem to like it. Women, on the other hand, frequently demand to know why I’m “wasting” long hair in an up-do. The whole “it’s convenient” and “it complements my face better” doesn’t seem to be enough for them. Shrug. I do what I want. It just so happens guys like it. But I kinda see how it can be tempting to dress for other women. I just can’t be bothered to care. My looking good, preserving the health of my hair, and minimizing time spent on grooming are the priorities to me.

Oh, I forgot a woman on my list: Laura Prepon as a blonde…helloooo, Mama! I find myself watching her awful new sitcom Are You There Chelsea? just because I like to look at Laura.

@Mike C
Does her “sexiness” make you want to go do some carpet munching on her?

I lol-ed at this one! (And of course the answer is “No”! Hahahaha!)

There is a lot more to life, being a good person, being a good woman then being sexy for a man. That said, it is just silly to try and redefine sexiness to maybe what some women would hope it would be instead of what it is in reality.

That first sentence is exactly what I wanted to add at the end of my earlier comment but couldn’t articulate, and the second sentence is the perfect counterpoint to it.

Sure, Hepburn and Watson aren’t voluptuous, but they have feminine, refined features if you ask me. I don’t see their faces being androgynous in the least. I think that’s a major stretch.

I say minimum enough, to go for that. Not that they were some people faces can go for one gender to another easier. If you ever watched the movie to Wong Foo thanks for everything Julie Newmar. John Legizamo looked amazingly feminine, Patrick Swayze errr more or less now Wesley Snipes…for real anyone thinking he was a woman needs to get their eyes checked.

Hope said:

In my opinion, a haircut is not just a haircut. I do not think this is something that men completely understand about women. A big drastic haircut is something done often for emotional and psychological reasons. After I had my stillbirth, I cut my waist-length hair very short and donated nearly 12 inches to kids with cancer. I didn’t look as attractive anymore, but I didn’t want to look attractive. I was in mourning.

YES. I don’t think this can be emphasized enough. I have had two drastic haircuts in my life: 1) when I was in high school and chopped off my butt-length hair to shoulder-length and donated it to Locks of Love, and it was a Big Deal to me because, being raised by a traditional Indian mom, I hadn’t been allowed to cut my hair until then; 2) when I was in college and depressed I cut it into a pixie cut. While I have big eyes and a feminine face, I don’t have the same defined and delicate facial structure Emma Watson does, so yeah, I didn’t look anywhere near as good as she does here. I was also very overweight at the time and dressed in baggy t-shirts, so I’m sure most people that saw me assumed that I was a big ol’ butch dyke. (Kind of embarrassing). The worst was when it was in the growing-out mullet stage, but at chin-to-shoulder lengths I thought it framed my face nicely.

I wasn’t thinking about attracting men at either stage. Sometimes, it’s really not about the menz.

Of course, now that I’m in full-on ‘I want loving sex’ stage, and a little bit more self-aware, I’m trying to grow my hair longer and thicker. If only I could be sixteen again and NOT cut it!

(Or is it “Betsy Johnson?” Yes, yes it is. Got confused w/ Scarlett Johanssen for a minute there.)

@Susan

OMG, your pic is adorable! I can’t believe you’re 40 in that shot– way to go!!

Susan,

I was thinking about this. If a woman does not feel sexy, she’s not

Lets see. If a man doesnt feel sexy, he´s not?

False, regardless of gender.

The most important sex organ is the brain.

Sure, but unrelated.

Maybe some men don’t care, but in my experience they do. A lot.

For attraction, sure, for sexyness = unrelated.

That’s precisely my objection. If Emma Watson wishes to reserve her sexiness for her SO, why do we resent it? No one gave Meryl Streep grief for not being a bimbo with breast implants.

She can do whatever she wants, I thought the point was to demolish Tomassi´s assertions, but it seems like “sexy” is missing its meaning – conceding the point to him.

It seems to me that the “quality” of sexiness is relative the amount of “performance” involved. I.e. the fake tan, the duck lips, the makeup apparently applied with a trowel, haircolor not found in nature, etc etc

The further away from natural, the more contrived it seems. Although, I’m not a guy so I may be missing the point entirely!

Also: This was another “charm school” point in regards to appearance: Men should notice your face, NOT your makeup. The focus is on bringing out your best points, not slathering on product with a trowel. The guy should be thinking, Wow, she’s got beautiful eyes; not, Wow, she is wearing a TON of makeup.

I.e. Less is more.

@Jackie
To add to what you’ve just said . . . Cindy Crawford says that women should consider it an insult (or at least a warning) when someone tells them, “Your makeup is so great!” because people should see the face and not the makeup.

The material point is — a woman’s choice not to slang her body around like some Las Vegas stripper does not mean, not should it communicate, that she is not sexy, is incapable of being sexy, feeling sexy, or acting sexy.

Women are free to do whatever they like with their appearance but that doesn’t mean that men have to like it or appreciate it. The whole “If a woman chooses to look like a boy that should not communicate that she is not sexy” business reminds me of the tired line that women like to trot out about men being “intimidated” by a woman’s job/wealth/age/intelligence/maturity/insert-any-other-quality-that-men-could-care-less about-or-has-a-negative-effect-on-her-attractiveness-here.

Newsflash ladies- we aren’t intimidated, it’s a turn-off. You don’t have to tart yourself up like a Vegas stripper but if you choose to maintain your appearance in a non-feminine manner don’t expect us men to cheer you on and tell you how “sexy” you are.

@Jackie: Thank you!

@YOHAMI (#180)
Hi Yohami,

I am still looking for my narcissist reading list for you. Will post ASAP. In the meantime, here is a REALLY good dissection of N:

the last psychiatrist (dot) com / narcissism
(just eliminate the spaces– trying to avoid the spam filter!)

Good luck, Yohami the troubadour

@Jackie
I couldn’t believe that was Lindsay Lohan. What a freaking tragedy . . .

Two months ago, I watched one of her minor movies, Just My Luck, and was astounded at how adorable she was in it. Anyone who never knew her early work and only knows her as a trainwreck will be stunned at the movies that made her famous. She really could have been the next America’s Sweetheart.

LL is also allegedly a lesbian, but that’s neither been a negative thing, like it was for Ellen DeGeneres in the past, nor a positive thing, like it’s been more recently for Portia DeRossi. I find it interesting – not that I find LL interesting or a role model as a fellow GLBT person (that’s silly), but more because whoever she dates just winds up along for the ride, adding to her drama. Of course, it helps that Ellen and Portia are the Storybook Fairytale Couple (Ellen being the rich, famous “prince” who rescued Portia from a career slump and MH problems) – and the media has chosen to portray them as such. They’re always depicted in matching outfits – both clad head-to-toe in ethereal white, or in matching jeans and baseball tees, or whatever.

Lindsay Lohan, by contrast, is seen as a tart and very much a “Bad Girl,” so no matter what woman she’s with, the photos the media releases show her drunken and red-faced, passing out and falling down. There’s an interesting dialog in this entry, which is that the public’s perception of an actor is not always under his/her control, and one period of bad choices or hitting rock-bottom can cause the actor’s downfall to snowball. (Charlie Sheen, perfect example.) Even if she cleaned up, LL would be forever branded, unless she did an Angelina Jolie-level turnaround, adopting a half-dozen kids and taking up a half-dozen causes to match.

Speaking of Angie, I’ve noticed that many women hate her. The reasons why seem to be split between “She’s ugly and weird and I don’t get why men drool over her” and “She’s a home-wrecker.” I dunno the circumstances of how she got Brad from Jenn Aniston, and don’t care, but she’s wonderful to look at, and that’s enough for me. I avoid celebrity gossip forums because they get vicious.

I think you’ve missed the point. She doesn’t say that men don’t find miniskirts sexy. ***Of course, she knows they do.*** She is stating that she doesn’t feel comfortable doing “sexy” by wearing a miniskirt.

I don’ think so (missing the point). To the bolded part, I think it is far from certain she knows that (which is the essence of Rollo’s point).

Quoting Emma from above:

“Personally, I don’t actually think its even that sexy,………….My idea of sexy is that less is more”. I tried to make this point earlier, but the concept of sexiness implies the desire to have sex with. Otherwise, it is just a nonsensical term. So either she doesn’t understand the term, or contrary to your assertion above does not realize men find mini-skirts sexy.

I can see we are heading in the direction of sexy meaning whatever one wants it to mean, and also being self-defined. So if a fat woman with cankles wears a snug blouse and “feels sexy in her mind” than she is in fact sexy. I”m not going to argue that position if one essentially wants to go that route.

Remember KP with blue hair? I actually like it heaps, but couldn’t see many people pulling it off. Same with Rhianna when she went RED — reminded me of the Little Mermaid. Apparently they spend about $40K/month on hair (coloring, extensions, wigs, etc.) Crazy!

Actually, Rhianna dyes her hair with Manic Panic [specifically the color “Vampire Red”]. A bottle of Manic Panic dye usually costs less than 20 bucks.

If you wanted to be dirt-cheap, you could just boil a packet of Kool-Aid. Boiled Kool-Aid is a surprisingly strong hair dye. It’s good if you want to dye just the ends of your hair [like Christina Aguilera, circa 1999].

Don’t forget well-traveled and high-status designer clothing. In fact, the more traveled, the more sexy the woman is. And +1 for sexiness for designer label shoes.

Wait a sec – men pay attention to our shoes ? I always had the impressions that guys don’t really care.

& Susan brought up Twiggy – who currently has a fantastic shoe-line on the Home Shopping Network.

Wait a sec – men pay attention to our shoes ? I always had the impressions that guys don’t really care.

I was being facetious.

@MikeC

“by and large many women simply will not…they simply refuse to consider any alteration to male preferences. So if they want to cut their hair super short, and be sarcastic, and aggressive then by damn that is how they are going to be. But in the next breath complain about not having a boyfriend.”

I had a roommate like this once. I think I may have mentioned her a while back? Anyway, she had all the signifiers: super short hair, caustic wit, feminist, aggressive, etc. A real chip on her shoulder towards men.

For her, I believe it was a defense mechanism. She might say she wanted a BF, and she probably thought she did. But in the face of potential attraction, I think it scared the crap out her– she was doing everything (albeit unconsciously) to sabotage and shut it down.

There is a part of her that feels MUCH safer on the outside looking in, than actually having to be in a relationship. That’s just my experience with one person like this though, YMMV.

Whoops. I inadvertently made a completely inappropriate joke. Ha!

Can you name one woman here who has done that?

That was a comment about women in general, not about the women HERE.

Even when some women HERE insist on redefining sexy to non-sense.

@Susan

This is off-topic, but if one wanted to get dating feedback (after the date), should they post here off-topic or take it straight to the “Forum”?
Thanks

Remember KP with blue hair? I actually like it heaps, but couldn’t see many people pulling it off. Same with Rhianna when she went RED — reminded me of the Little Mermaid. Apparently they spend about $40K/month on hair (coloring, extensions, wigs, etc.) Crazy!

I’m usually a cheap bitch and I refuse spending money on things like shoes, clothes but I’m pretty sure if I had that money I will be spending the same on hair. Hair is the weak point of Dominican women, you define being poor, I mean after covering the basics of course, by not having money to go to the beauty parlor.

Women are free to do whatever they like with their appearance but that doesn’t mean that men have to like it or appreciate it. The whole “If a woman chooses to look like a boy that should not communicate that she is not sexy” business reminds me of the tired line that women like to trot out about men being “intimidated” by a woman’s job/wealth/age/intelligence/maturity/insert-any-other-quality-that-men-could-care-less about-or-has-a-negative-effect-on-her-attractiveness-here.

Newsflash ladies- we aren’t intimidated, it’s a turn-off.

Oh, I’m aware. Had a couple guys in my past who made that painfully clear. One came right out and said my intelligence was intimidating, played phone games with me, and then got offended and angry because I cut him loose. The other, who was immature and often drunk, managed to screw up every job and internship he got, despite being handed job opportunities from his well-connected siblings who wiped his ass for him. He repeatedly berated me for having career aspirations while predicting and even hoping I would fail because I was not “handed his advantages.” He hated when I did well. He hated when I could do anything better than he could. One day I tried teaching him how to draw, at his request. He couldn’t stand the fact that to reach my level of proficiency, he’d need to practice every day for 10 years – i.e. it wasn’t something to be learned in an hour – and made a big show of giving up on it. While trashing me, he somehow needed immense amounts of validation for his “talents” and accomplishments from me and everyone else. While I initially thought it was sad when he dumped me, soon after that, I found myself thrilled at the turn of events.

You may find intelligence, wealth, career aspirations, maturity, etc. to be turn-offs in women, and that’s your prerogative. It’s also my prerogative to date people who value me for traits besides my face, breasts, and sex organs. Surprisingly, they’re not that hard to find. I just steer clear of people who are only interested in me because they want something nice hanging off of their arm. Someone who only wants me for my looks – like the 38 year-old college professor I dated briefly shortly before getting together with my husband, whose girlfriends got younger as he got older – is bound to get rid of me anyway when those looks fail to satisfy. My husband considers other things about women besides their face, breasts, and genitals when he dates them. And he’s not lying about it to make me feel better, either – though some guys may lie to their girlfriends about valuing things besides their looks.

Of course, let’s be clear – I don’t much care or get offended about the fact that some men may not like me for much other than my face and tits, or may even be turned off by my other qualities. I simply won’t date them. Everyone wins!

I just steer clear of people who are only interested in me because they want something nice hanging off of their arm. Someone who only wants me for my looks – like the 38 year-old college professor I dated briefly shortly before getting together with my husband, whose girlfriends got younger as he got older – is bound to get rid of me anyway when those looks fail to satisfy.

So wait, you mean you steer clear of them now that you’re married. Respectable, but not exactly admirable. Most women steer clear of men of all sorts once they’re married.

so nuts for Patton that you listen to Bowel of Chiley and insist it is a masterpiece. He was all of 17 when he made that demo, and it’s butt-awful, no joke.

One of the great things about him is the catholicity of his tastes and the breadth of his talents. He’s a decent songwriter, but he’s an amazing vocalist. He also happens to be a very warm, friendly, and down-to-earth individual with a good sense of humor.

Lindsay,

Looking slutty=looking like you’re DTF (with no emotional strings attached). Being slutty=being DTF (with no emotional strings attached).

Number itself is an imperfect indicator. I say imperfect because it isn’t everything. But once a number reaches a certain level, then you can get a sense that the person has been DTF (with no emotional strings attached) on occasion at least.

My ex-fiancee sounds a bit like you (not in terms of the bisexuality, but in that she looks more conventional than she’s apparently been in her life). She’s a good person, but not a good bet for someone who wants monogamy. Similarly, you sound like a good person, and you sound like a good gamble for a man who’s willing to exchange a woman’s fidelity for the ability to score some ass on the side. And for someone who doesn’t particularly care about having children.

“Speaking of Angie, I’ve noticed that many women hate her.”

Personally, I find that she’s getting to that witchy middle-aged look that usually Italian women get (Madonna), & the tattoos aren’t helping. She’s going to look awful in another 20 years. But the number of girls I’ve been with who think she is hands down the sexiest woman alive is really extraordinary. Though that probably says much about the kind of women I know.

The female-herd’s disapproval & soap-opera consumption of the private & personal lives of ‘Ange’ & ‘Brad’ & ‘Jennifer’ & so on are utterly beyond me, completely off my radar. It seems to me only mean & ugly, I am unable to understand it at all. I can see that it’s an intrinsic part of female nature, & originally served an evolutionary purpose, but I wish it was a part they would try to keep in check a little more.

Watson does have a sort of weird, elfin look in some pics. The pic above is the first I ever saw the girl and it looks hot. In others, she looks averagI still prefer her look to the Olsen one.

Intelligence looks sexy on a woman. It occurs to me with this thread that men are committing their own fallacy. It seems like a lot of guys prefer the appearance of women who look easy to “game.” A girl like Watson, who in my opinion looks like she’d be fairly immune to Roissy-style game, is considered unsexy. Olsen, who looks incredibly easy to game, is considered more desirable in comparison.

Byron,

Yea, Bukowski is good. Rereading the poem, I was struck by just how much like Celine Buk is stylistically. Not so much the part you quoted (the geese in long V formation hit the right note, didn’t it?) but the parts about serving women up like McDonald’s burgers and it all just being dead meat without the imagination.

but i have not criticised her as such- its just the whole celeb skin show is a bit meh (and not good for kids in my view).

she is not as full on as some (e.g. Kardishan etc) but she is not exactly a shrinking violet and she does exploit her body is a sexual way.

she certainly cannot claim to really endorse the quote at the head of the article.

as for showing legs ‘on the town’ i couldn’t give a toss- it wasnt something i did when younger but i never disapproved of my peers doing it- provided they had a taxi home booked.

by the way, I’m not really ashamed of my age, much as you would like me to be, I’m happier now than at any other time in my life.

nor do i mind the moniker ‘slut’ (but i dont think i qualify by most peoples definition), i just pity people who feel the need to engage in that sort of vitriol.

Anon-

No one else finds it pretentious or ironic in the least that Watson “refuses to do dumb, or be an object of any kind,” when she cashed in on millions by letting herself be cast as the object of every omega-male Harry Potter fan’s boner (assuming that even omegas aren’t more discerning in taste) in the seven HP films. She’s an actress so pretty much right off the bat I’m going to conclude that she’s also a hulking narcissist of a young woman.

This is ridiculous. She was what, 10? when she signed onto the films.

Also, I find that British film/tv is actually a better place for actors who want to focus on ACTING rather than just being sexy and getting famous, like in Hollywood. In general I think there is a different approach to acting across the Atlantic, and it’s not only/mainly for narcissists like it is in the U.S.

is it just me or does elizabeth olsen look like a mix of maggie gyllenhall, alyson hannigan, and rashida jones?

@ Byron # 271

Or as Frank Zappa put it: “what is the dirtiest part of your body/ I think it’s your mind’

#240

When it absolutely positively must get said -Bukowski. What Henry Miller thought he was writing. (Yeah and like a lot of greats, he wasn’t consistent. But if you want consistency, read Herman Wouk or James Michener. In comedy, see Seinfeld, not Sam Kinison).

Re: mine #289
Math off: meant to say 6,999,999,999 of us.

Do you agree with Rollo’s statements about Emma Watson and women in particular? That is the topic here.

Watson decide to remove the sluttiness from herself and go classy, that´s valid. She also removed the sexiness, not just the sluttiness, which is not the same thing.

Rollo´s point is that women dont understand “sexy” because most think its about being slutty, when there are ways to be sexy without the sluttiness, and I agree with that.

And in this post it does seem like you keep making sexy=slut, so you´re conceding the point to Rollo too.

Susan,

The most important sex organ is the brain.
For attraction, sure, for sexyness = unrelated.

This is very interesting. Can you describe the difference between sexiness and sexual attraction?

Megan Fox is sexy, I got a boner when I saw her in Transformers. But Im guessing if I interacted with her, her lack of persona / brain power would crush that boner quickly.

I know a bunch of sexy girls Im not attracted to. My body say´s yum, but I as a whole dont feel it. When we put the brain in the equation, we´re talking about attractive personalities and chemistry, not just physical appearance. So of course the physical aspect is the first card, but its not the only card.

Will men perceive a hot, anxious woman in precisely the same way as a hot, smiling woman? Is a woman sexier if she appears interested in you? Is a very hot woman sexy if she is passed out – do you still feel the same desire to have sex with her?

A distressed hot woman trigger´s the white knight and protective gene, she doesnt lose the sexiness. In a predator kind of guy, distress is sexy for other reasons.

But happiness / smiling / fertility are more sexy than the lack of, unless the guy has some problems with happiness / smiling (like he cant relate or doesnt feel comfortable with that)

Say this guy hot from Friday Night Lights is sitting on the bench all sweaty and with the focused / consternation on his face and you find him sexy. What difference does it make for you if he doesnt feel sexy? your body is already telling you what he is.

Point is, sexiness aint defined from your own feelings and thoughts, even if you, with your feelings and thoughts, can alter your own sexiness.

Women undervalue the physical in men / screen for the bigger picture, the emotional state and character of the guy play a bigger part on if they find a guy sexy or not. But it´s not related to if the guy thinks he is sexy or not, it only relates to the girl´s checklist, either she finds what she´s looking for in him or not.

Susan,

So sluttiness is not always sexy, in your view?

If we define sluttiness as ready-to-fuck and showing-skin, sluttiness is always sexy.

But then we have personalities and morality and its easy to transgress people´s sensibilities on a personal basis, and we all have different thresholds.

I dont like porn for example.

Still, get me exposed to any part of the female body and my own body pays full attention.

NSFW http://img.funtasticusnsfw.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/photozip/032103club_girls/club_girls_14.jpg

See. I dont like that girl – I wouldnt go talk to her – but did I look at her tits? for a split second I totally fucked her. Is this the route girls have to take to be sexy? not at all.

I could nor post this right away because I needed to bang my head against the wall a few times just to calm myself.
Susan, how in the name of Venus is a man supposed to perceive just how “sexy” a woman happens to feel about herself at any given time?
Women grossly over rate what men can tell about their internal mood-states. And sometimes I think that women value mens responses less the more obvious they make their clues. Like, if you have to tell him verbally that you are horny it does not count. And this stuff can change for women from heart beat to heart-beat. And if a guy gets it wrong he is routinely punished.
Fortunately, if a guy just takes the lead and works her buttons right and thoroughly her mood can usually be improved. But this is different than somehow knowing for sure where she is at any given second.

I do agree with the guys that the longer the list of traits a woman demands appreciation for, the smaller the pool of potentially interested men. So I have no patience for women who demand to know where all the good men have gone, or to blame men for not appreciating all their traits.

You are obviously a little more perceptive than a lot of women when it comes to this topic but your words still carry the implication that men are somehow “shallow” for not being able to appreciate certain traits in a woman.

A HUGE part of the problem with the mating game today is modern women’s desire to impose attractiveness standards on men, It doesn’t matter what you wish to be attractive to a man; it only matters what is encoded in his DNA.

You would love to be valued for your intelligence (among other things) but the fact of the matter is that anything above average or slightly above average is a negative. Sorry, that’s just the way it is. I didn’t make the rules I’m just trying to make you understand that nature designed it this way and no amount of wishing is going to change it.

If you want to be optimally attractive to men the formula is simple- be feminine. Be the opposite of what you seek in a man. If you try to tinker with the formula you are only going to be met with resistance.

Jesus,

She also doesn’t strike me as being emotionally vacuous (whereas Olsen at looks intellectually vacuous to me). I think I see what you’re getting at though. Seems to me that Watson’s strong exterior is hiding something deep and vulnerable, though.

I agree that Olsen seems intellectually vacuous, and Watson looks more intellectual. At least that´s what the pictures say.

Sometimes a rough exterior is just a sign of roughness through and through. Sounds like that’s the type you’ve had to deal with in past relationships.

Yep. I just traced the source of it, thanks to some blogs (Ricky´s Rawness and TLP). Seems like since I didnt have love in my childhood, I go and invest myself on less responding people and try to gain their affection. Which is a bait for narcissists. Lesson learned.

When I picture Olsen as hot though, I imagine her reading a book, that´s what puts the kiss on it. When I picture Watson, I imagine her with that stiff armor around her and keeping it unbreakable.

But you´re right in that sometimes the armor hides something fragile and precious. Thing is will it ever open.

I totally get why either can be attractive. If your girlfriend has the Watson posture, man I wish she does crack and open for you. Still the point here was the sexy vs sluttiness angle.

Check that video on my blog. The stiffness on the mother makes the kid try harder until he starts acting up. Very freaking deep.

Rum said
“Women grossly over rate what men can tell about their internal mood-states. ”

In fairness, I’ve often overrated what women can tell about MY internal moods. And I’ve also often overrated my ability to read a woman’s mind. We’re all black boxes to each other.

I think there are different kinds of sexy. I find “Less is more” to be intriguing, provided I’m already interested in the first place.

More is more turns me on, but it’s more of a physical response.

There have always been two sides to sex to me–the tension and the release. And sexy is the knife edge between the two. While I’m sure the balance is different for everyone–I’m an anticipation man myself–a woman is able to walk that line, I find her irresistible.

Susan
Oh, come on. Everyone knows the answer to this 100%. True Enthusiasm is a massive part of mutual enjoyment. And, like “Sincerity” , if you can fake it you have got it made.

@Mike C

two ladder theory works for me as a reasonable analogy (and an amusing site)

Sassy@340-

Very true, but the difference is that men generally do not try to adopt feminine traits and then shame women into accepting them as being attractive.

Sassy,

Great point. I think a good lover takes into account both the low and the high – hence the 1 of 3 rule combined with a winning personality advice from Susan. Likewise, learning game but also bringing the green light stuff for men. Takes both. Probably better to lead with the instinctive (the sexy) then let the (prospective) partner slowly discover the rest on their own.

There is a huge problem with high-achieving women (and come to think of it, some beta men) refusing to take the instinctive part into account at all, so they end up never getting an opportunity to show the rest. I think that problem is what Rollo is getting at in his own ham-fisted way, but Susan got lost in her own (entirely distinct, however valid, and it is quite valid) public-private point (public sexiness being in some sense slutty in itself – see Lohan/Spears/Cyrus ad nauseum) which had nothing to do with Rollo’s.

I don’t think it was something Susan consciously/intentionally did, although distancing herself from the Ro’s is certainly good business.

“As I said in the post, she’s going for dignity and class, male gaze be damned.”

Seems to me like she cares more about the latter than the former, but I may just be speaking from experience with women of that ilk (see the Finkeldate, Dawkins’ offended atheist on the elevator, etc…).

Third-wave feminism: not taking any shit, and determined to find the maximum amount of shit not to take, whether its there or not.

I refuse to get worked up over her till she start’s smiling and grows her hair…so there

Being smart always adds to a woman attractiveness. The more the better. The thing is, I define “smart” as being able to accurately assess reality and to cope effectively. This is not the same as SAT scores because it places a huge premium on having good judgment.
A really smart woman will grasp how dumb it is to be overweight, for example. She will “get” how make-up should work. She might even, in the right moments, know how to play dumb.

@SW

“No one is telling men who they should find attractive, least of all me. Nor should men tell women how to wear their hair or clothing to please men, when that may not be important to the woman at all.”

We’re not telling women to do anything. We are simply saying certain ways of dressing and acting are sexier than others. If you choose not to do these things, fine, but don’t turn around and say these unsexy things are, in fact, sexy, men’s feelings be damned.

This is why Rollo is saying many women don’t know how to turn men on. Perhaps I would amend his statement to also include “many women do know how to turn men on, but instead choose to do other things and expect that men be turned on by those things instead”.

*A) taunt him sexually, show skin, let him know you might be DTF.

‘night Susan, have a nice evening

I’m chiming in way late here, so maybe someone already said this, but I’ll say it anyway.

I read the original Rollo post, and I thought it was interesting. Essentially, he’s saying that the entire mass media (including Emma, who’s just a very small part) has chosen to define sexy in a specific way. In order to be sexy, you must be slutty (it reminds me of my favorite Jesus Mahoney characterization of the media “rubbing the public’s junk”). Emma is essentially saying “if that’s what it takes for me to be sexy, I don’t want to be sexy. I don’t want to put my body on display.” But she’s still thinking of “sexy” as purely physical when she says “less is more” (and of course she thinks of it that way, she’s 18 and the media has sold her on a very specific definition of “sexy”).

Meanwhile, Rollo is rejecting the entire thing. According to him, the media doesn’t know what’s sexy, and neither does Emma. He’s not launching a personal attack against Emma, he’s challenging the notion that sexy is all about physical appearance (albeit in rather harsh terms, but Rollo doesn’t apologize for his viewpoints). He’s using Emma as a proxy to represent the mass media image of “sexy,” and he’s saying that the media has it wrong. He proposes that there are many ways to be sexy without being slutty, that just because you don’t want to be slutty doesn’t mean you have to reject what is sexy. I think it’s a valid point.

Mike C,
You should read Bellita’s post. She raises an entirely different point about preserving innocence by “deflecting the male gaze.” If I’m able to interpret Rollo’s article, Bellita’s able to bring new ideas to the discussion. She’s thinking 10 steps ahead of me.

If the media is saying “give up your virginity” and Rollo is saying “give it up in the right way, Bellita is saying “don’t just give it up.” And poor Emma is confused. I think I felt similarly at 18 or 19.

Now we are getting somewhere. What message does short hair send?

I don’t think women know that it sends a message at all. That’s the issue. If you could give us an idea, perhaps women would be able to understand the male psyche a bit better.

Well…this very comment thread is proof of one of the messages it *potentially* sends which is sort of a “I don’t give a fuck what you men find sexually appealing”. That’s all well and good. I mean whatever floats someone’s boat, but I know I wouldn’t want to be with a woman who puts being sexually appealing to me very low on her priority list, and essentially says “Fuck you, I feel sexy the way I am, and you better just like it”. That type can hit the road as far as I am concerned but again some guys would accept that.

Mike C,

Well, duh, how many of them are making themselves “invisible” to men by doing things like chopping off their hair or dressing in a totally unsexy manner?

Yup. Cut your hair, cover your skin, be stiff, drop any social skills, never flirt, yet be obnoxious, angry and demanding. Do everything to repel the male gaze and then wonder why nobody wants you.

Mike C,

At the same time, just don’t be pissed when it works and then bemoan lack of male attention. Don’t make yourself “invisible” and then complain about being invisible.

Yeah I get this, and I agree with you.

To play devil’s advocate a bit, I think it’s a little confusing out there, for women like Emma (and the single version of me, who wasn’t so different). First you have the media telling you slutty=sexy, the end. That pushes you in the wrong direction when trying to figure out what is appealing. Then you have feminism telling you that you’re worth more than what makes you a woman, dammit! So then you aren’t sure what’s appealing. Maybe it’s miniskirts, maybe it’s smarts/status, or maybe it’s a combination!

And for the ladies who don’t want to be slutty, how is it possible to attract men? I think that’s what I grappled with for the longest time, and still do to a certain extent. I had an interesting discussion with my BF during lunch today, about the fact that I hate high heels. They give me blisters, they’re uncomfortable, and I can’t walk fast in them (and I’m always late for everything). And there’s something else… they aren’t modest. They make a statement. They say “hey look at me!” It’s sort of… embarrassing (and I realized Emma used that exact word only after I typed it).

But what no one ever tells you is there are ways to attract men besides wearing high heels. And I think that’s what Rollo’s getting at, and what (arguably) the quote from Emma is missing. Part of me wishes I had known sooner, but I guess it worked out for me anyway. My BF seems to think high heels are really just an accessory.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read or heard about women complaining that they feel invisible to men. That they don’t get approached.

This is interesting too, in part because I’ve been that girl. For a girl who’s shy and doesn’t necessarily want to be the center of attention (not all extroverts do, and not all extroverts are automatically outgoing), this SMP is miserable. Being slutty is all about being wild and crazy and in the middle of every social interaction, it’s about dressing loudly and putting yourself out there. And once you’ve defined sexy as slutty, that’s it. There’s no other way to be, unless you want to be a cat lady (which isn’t the reality, of course).

@ Intelligence

I require intelligence in a woman for an LTR.
Not the kind where she can read Nature and tell me whats going on but the kind where shes socially savy, self-aware enough to realise the world continues to exist after she leaves the room, able to talk a bit of politics/world events etc.

It doesn’t make her sexy…the sensual or slutty kind.
I would list it as a completely seperate issue from sexy. A woman with normal intelligence can still be sensual or slutty but so can a woman with above average intelligence.

Let me give an example,

when I was in grad school theres was this girl I will refer to as E.
E was a cute woman, beautiful little ass, body type I liked. I wanted to be inside her within 1/2 a second of meeting her.
E let me take her to the park for a walk.
E was also a genius. One night we ended up at a party with her head on my knee and we talked about history and politics.
E tooled me with her knowledge in a fun and flirty way. I remember having one of the most awesome conversations I have ever had in my entire life.
E came back to my place that night where we proceeded to have tons of nonP&V fun. (Ohh I tried so hard.)

E’s intelligence had nothing to do with the fact I would have lobotimized myself while simultaneously cutting of my left nut if I could just been inside her.

E continued to escalate physically with me while also maintaining the great conversation.

Her intelligence had nothing to do with the fact that I wanted to fuck the living daylights out of her within 10 seconds of meeting her. That was entirely her body.
Her intelligence did however assist in the final moments of hesitation when I bought an engagement ring last summer.

Whats DP?

One of the more painful realizations about women after the Red Pill goes down is the extent to which they are influenced by “media”. I mean, if guys are saturated by media telling them to get boners for obese chicks with short hair they would think,”Great. If more men go that way, maybe I can have more of the actual hotties for myself”. For guys, the idea that culture/media strongly influences their hottness detector will never be taken seriously. We just know better than that. We can remember what puberty was like.
With women, it is as if they feel like they have to ask permission to be attracted to a man. The idea of going against the media teaches seems to fill them with anxiety if not real dread.
All of which they project onto guys with relentless, irresistible certainty.
This might be my last sober post for some time…

So to be clear Emma Watson is not sexy if men don’t find her sexy, regardless what women think, straight men have the say on sexiness of the opposite gender. Edward Cullen is sexy because women find him sexy, regardless what men think, straight women have the say of the opposite gender.
There solved, now can we close this post and start something new now? Please???

I fixed it for you.

I though this was about no redefining sexy for the other gender?

I think we might all be surprised to see how few men actually will make the concious choice to have children. I just read abut a survey that found 42% of women said they were willing to lie about contraception in order to get pregnant with an unwilling man. When that willingness is so high pregnancy rates can have been held artifically much higher than they would had men had a pill.

I’d be surprised. A few days ago, I heard about a study that claimed that men who want marraige and kids now outnumber women who want them. As to a male pill, I’d have no objection to it, but I sure wouldn’t advise women to believe every guy who claims to be on it. I wouldn’t want to turn over responsiblilty for my fertility to some guy.

I think she means Jacob is a she.

Which makes me a lesbian or a man….

@Olive
I was going to answer you but Yohami’s line is too good. I’m stealing it!…with respect of course

PS
I just heart that Whitney Houston died. So shocking R.I.P.

Slutty is not sexy – unless you consider sugar good dessert.

There is pre-sexy slutty – common images abound. It’s like pure sugar – overwhelming and undesirable beyond the first couple of granules. I wouldn’t seek it but if I catch a glimpse of it, I’d feel the spike and let it go.

There is post-sexy slutty – “sluttyness” that arises from deep sexuality, when a woman becomes a holy whore – whether for one man or the world. It’s like dried dates – the sweetness is gentle, lasting and nourishing.
******
In the world of processed food, processed slutty gets pushed to the top – it’s cheap to produce, distribute and leads to a roller-coaster.

In a post long ago Susan wrote about a study that looked at how the gender balance in different places arround the world affected wether there was a lot of hokking up and early sex during courthsip or wether guys were willing to wait long etc. Could someone tell me which thread that was?

On the subject of how to dress femininely, this is not scientific and just my opinion, but I think works.

Rule of thumb: If it would look ridiculously gay or over-the-top weird on a straight guy, it’s probably feminine.

Corollary to the rule: If you wouldn’t wear in front of your easily-shocked grandmother, it’s probably slutty.

So: sundress with flowers, does not show cleavage, goes to the knee, passes both rules. Collared shirt and pantsuit, doesn’t pass first rule, passes second rule.

There may be exceptions to this, but I think overall, it’s a good starting point.

Anacaona, yes

Winehouse died at 27

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27_Club

Winehouse died at 27

Yeah but that list has 80% of the dead’s being more than 30 years ago. A whole generation away.

I’ve never had the desire to have kids, not even an “Eh, maybe one day I’ll have kids” idea. Whenever I’ve had to hold a baby, I’ll pretend to be enthused around my girlfriends, but I can’t wait to give it back to the mother. I don’t feel anything special when I hold or look at babies.

Throughout my teens and 20s, babies and toddlers literally disgusted me; they do tend to be sticky and to smell like poop. When I was around 30, I started wanting some. By the time I actually had kids, it was as though I personally had invented mother love.

It’s different when they’re yours.

Munch, are you a Zappa fan?

On that note, I grew up in a school district with a lot of low-income people who didn’t know how to or didn’t care to use birth control, and my class was filled with abused and neglected kids. Some of them came to school when sick because the free breakfast and lunch were the only guarantee of a hot meal. Others showed up with belt marks all over them. Many of them went on to have their own families of abused and neglected kids while perpetuating the cycle of poverty for generations to come.

It’s heartbreaking.

Late to the party, not gonna rifle through 500+ comments. Just gonna leave me 2 pennies and run.

I’m proud of Emma. While she isn’t ‘sexy’ to me in this pic (i have a visceral loathing of short boy/bowl haricuts on women, sorry Susan) and someone said properly earlier, it’s androgynous.

However, I’m glad she’s comfy as she is and doesn’t feel the need to ‘conform’ to prototypical cookie cutter ‘slut’ as defined by the male PUA leaders or the sex poz flaunt what you got and blueball’m all street walker types.

I’ve seen Emma on the red carpet and she knows how to look stunning when the time is necessary, and she knows how to be herself the rest of the time.

And if she has no issue waiting to find a guy who likes her style, so be it. My ex wife was very forceful in letting me know that me in Abercrombe tops was ‘sexy’ and my old faded beater hoodies were not.

I too told her long mane hair was sexy, short boy cuts were not. We both defined sexy for each other because we knew it was in our best interests to keep our interests on each other.

But again, props for Emma. I’m out.

@Lindsay
Learn a bit that life doesn’t revolve around you and your husband’s experiences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_in_the_home#Where_corporal_punishment_in_the_home_is_lawful

On the bus, I see how women who hate and/or don’t want their children behave. They scream at their children, shake them, and beat them silly.

I think we’ve all seen our share of people like that. They tend to be young, poor, uneducated or otherwise disadvantaged. Often they were raised by parents who treated them in the same manner and don’t know much better, but I agree with Ana that few of them would tell you that they don’t love or want their kids. In fact, I’d bet a good number of them believe that a lack of physical discipline is a lack of love. I’d also guess that many of those women wanted their kids when they were pregnant and thought they would deliver a source of unconditional love rather than a ball of needs which is what a kid actually is.

Moving on…

Talking about appearances and perception I was confused with a homeless person today. It was cold and rainy and I took the bus home and I forgot my umbrella (stupid weather forecast lied to me) so I was wrapped in two coats, covered my head with the hood to protect my brand new hair do (I got the Bob Susan :D) and with my old backpack. I stared at windows sandwich place restaurant because I was hungry I didn’t ate anything for like six hours before but then I decided that I wanted more protein than carbs and went to another store,covering myself with my backpack. And nice amish looking guy with a long beard stopped me in the store. I was also going to buy an umbrella, clearly all wet from running after me to ask me if I was okay, when I convinced him that I was he left I assume he though I couldn’t afford the sandwich and was going to buy me one. Still I asked the hubby if I looked like a bum and he agreed that I did. Interesting experience at least for me.

Whenever I’ve had to hold a baby, I’ll pretend to be enthused around my girlfriends, but I can’t wait to give it back to the mother. I don’t feel anything special when I hold or look at babies.

Yikes.

Yohami,

Seems like since I didnt have love in my childhood, I go and invest myself on less responding people and try to gain their affection. Which is a bait for narcissists. Lesson learned.

I could’ve saved you the trouble and told you that months ago, bro.

I’ve known many clams (hard on the outside, soft on the inside), hence my defense of them. I have a knack for teasing them open, too, it seems. The key is trust. Being a clam yourself, you don’t find those people easier to read?

I’ve been reading what you and Mike C have been saying about Rollo’s stance, and it makes sense, actually. I agree with it in principle. However, I think it’s a mistake to use Watson to drive the point home. I think the girl was just trying to say that she didn’t want to be sexualized by the media. I’m pretty sure the girl’s not trying to be totally asexual.

However, I think it’s a mistake to use Watson to drive the point home. I think the girl was just trying to say that she didn’t want to be sexualized by the media. I’m pretty sure the girl’s not trying to be totally asexual.

I think the problem is we’ve formulated this entire argument about Emma the person, and that wasn’t Rollo’s point at all. He was talking about this image in the context of its circulation on facebook. The reality is Emma looked totally different at 18 than she does in this picture. So someone (not Rollo, not Emma) chose to paste this quote on this picture, and then it was circulated on facebook. So someone (not Emma) is advocating the notion of “guys just don’t know what’s sexy these days!” And that’s what’s pissing off Rollo. And Yohami and Mike C.

Honestly, I’m surprised that there are men who don’t agree that less is more when it comes to sexiness. Even if a guy likes to go to titty bars to gawk at naked women, that enjoyment is founded upon the fact that breasts are typically covered up in our society. The notion of titty bars would be absurd to African tribal people whose women walk around topless as a matter of course. And, though I don’t know much about tribal people, I’m guessing the tribesmen aren’t sprouting boners every time they’re faced with a topless woman.

Could be, but then it was a mistake for him to use Emma the person to try to illustrate his point.

I agree. He would’ve done better to address the people who created this image, not Emma herself. I reread the beginning of the post again, and while he starts off being rather harsh, by the end of the first paragraph or two, he’s discussing Emma’s words as a writer would discuss a text.

The actual post is interesting, and with all due respect to Susan, in this particular instance I think she’s misunderstood Rollo’s views. She has a good point: Emma shouldn’t be attacked. But it’s when she says that Rollo objects to Emma’s failure to put her boobs on display that I think she’s a little off the mark. Rollo is saying that Emma can be sexy without being slutty, something many women in this era seem to fail to understand (let me introduce you to the girl who’s new obsession is my brother. Or the one before her….).

@Susan

Do you feel safe putting up your pic?

And yea, the idea that sluttiness is always (or even ever) sexy is a bizarre one to me… and a possible reflection of his low character. Or else a reflection of his poor taste.

Olive,

Idk. I have no use for Rollo. He’s too much of an asshole to bother with. Funny how quick you are to be critical of girls you have problems with but are incredibly tolerant of an asshole like Rollo. Not complaining; tolerance is good. I just have a limited supply, so I don’t waste it on assholes.

And yea, the idea that sluttiness is always (or even ever) sexy is a bizarre one to me… and a possible reflection of his low character. Or else a reflection of his poor taste.

Think of it in the way we’ve discussed media before, in terms of “rubbing the public’s junk.” The media’s image of slutty=sexy is all about pure biology. It’s why men will bang a slutty girl but they won’t take her home to meet the parents. I think you see yourself as above this, and to be honest, that’s highly commendable.

My brother isn’t so different. He’s never had a girlfriend, or even kissed a girl, and last night he told me about this girl who’s crushing on him, but he’s not interested. She’s a pretty girl, but she also has a partner count of at least 15, plus I suspect she’s too… loud for him. When I asked him why he won’t just hook up with her, to get some experience, he said “that’s mean.” He didn’t say she turns him off, or that he has zero sexual interest, he just doesn’t want to P&D a girl, because he feels it’s dishonorable and not in good taste. That’s essentially what you’re saying as well.

Co – sign comment 522

Guys with smarts at the upper end of the bell curve wouldn’t agree with Roissy’s maxims, however. Some of them tend toward the Asperger’s end of the spectrum, and I find them to be good company. We “get” each other, and we can sit there and babble on about computer/software/programming/science crap for hours and dig it.

You’re incorrect. We absolutely agree with them. Any woman with an IQ over 120 at the very least has a potential to be a pain in the ass far beyond that of her less intelligent sisters. What you’re forgetting is that someone with +5SD intelligence is further removed from someone like you – I would estimate around +2SD based on your pedestrian intellectual interests – as you are from the norm. Furthermore, highly intelligent women tend to be very unstable as well as less intellectual than their male counterparts; the smartest woman I ever dated ended up in a mental ward by the time she was 25. Intelligent men simply aren’t looking for intellectual companionship from women the way most intelligent women are, they’re more concerned about intellectual compatibility. For example, one of my hobbies is writing books, so it is FAR more important to me that my wife be able to amuse herself for several hours in the evening than provide me with a stimulating conversation about the various books we’re reading or whatever. And “stimulating conversations” are seldom actually intellectual; women tend to like to talk about things rather than seriously delving into them. I’ve met plenty of smart, literate women who enjoy talking intelligently about science, history, literature, and current events, but every single one will flee for the kitchen if something like intellectual dishonesty in the Euthyphro dialogue or the dichotomy of the Austrian Business Cycle mechanism and equity prices is brought up.

Furthermore, smart women often feel the need to constantly challenge smarter men and it gets tedious constantly have to beat down their pointless arguments. My best female friend from high school has an MBA from Tuck and she was always challenging me, getting swatted down, then getting mad about it. Fun and stimulating, but not something anyone wants to live with every day. The salient difference is this. When a highly intelligent woman meets one of my more intelligent friends, (by which I mean between +3D and +5D), her eyes brighten and she is instantly attracted. We, on the other hand, tend to roll our eyes because we know exactly what is coming with the casual reference to the academic qualifications followed by the inevitable attempts to first impress, then ascertain her relative cognitive status.

Which, as Roissy rightly said, is a pain in the ass. That being said, the guy who brought up children was dead-on.

Jesus,

What´s a clam?

“Very beautiful women can not only pull off short hair”

Really hot women can get away with short hair, but I’ve seen precisely zero in my life, that are more attractive that way.

I’ve seen a small number, maybe 5 or 10, but that’s out of a lot of women, obviously, & they tended to be quite androgynous girls, too (or lesbian), so it fit with their character. For the most part, it seems a universal truth the world over that long hair on a woman is her crowning glory, just left alone as it is.

Olive -> Susan

But it’s when she says that Rollo objects to Emma’s failure to put her boobs on display that I think she’s a little off the mark.

Agreed but not just a little, Susan got the exact opposite interpretation of the piece. I dont think she read the whole thing.

Yohami,
I was trying to be diplomatic. Way to ruin it.

@Jesus M 524

Honestly, I’m surprised that there are men who don’t agree that less is more when it comes to sexiness.

I’ve always been that way. I’ve seen women in skin tight revealing outfits they have no business being in = absolutely awful vs. women completely bundled up in jackets and fluffy boots with only their face and hands showing = sexy.

I remember getting my former wife into shopping at Vic.Secret. We’d flip through the catalogue together and she’d point to items she’d want and to things she’d think i would like. One time she picked out a really nice looking sweater dress and i approved. She said ‘really? i thought this was more your style!’.. and pointed to a dress with a really short skirt cutoff.

I replied, yea, id like the short skirt one, but only if she wore it to bed.

I’m pretty sure ‘sexy’ boils down to part fashion/part attitude. Just throwing on a street walker outfit, drinking and swearing like a sailor and pissing yourself is NOT sexy.

I would have thought years of Jersey Shore being on TV would have shown women how NOT to be sexy.

Sassy,
+1 on your post about intelligence. My experience has been similar.

Lok: “I went and tracked down the original FB thing out of curiosity. Its along the lines of “be a man”, “this is hot”, “their intimidated” etc. I believe thats the problem guys are having here. Women (in general not Watson or the ladies here) are trying to tell my penis when to stand-up. I find that offensive and ridculous.”

Nailed it! You see, this particular picture is just one in a large series of copied Facebook postings that all fall into this category.

1. The “Marilyn Monroe was a size 16″ post. Totally debunked, as she was a 36D with a 22 inch waist.
2. The “when did this become hotter than this” meme. See the top pic for the original, with the responses below – http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-when-did-this-become-hotter-than-this-meme

And is is just off the top of my head. It happens all the time! If I mined my FB newsfeed I could come up with tons of examples.

Not surprisingly, these are only posted by very overweight women, demanding that the world find them more attractive. One of my friends is a former Miss NH, and another is a fitness instructor. Both are mothers of two, in good shape, and they’d never post that kind of stuff.

Still, I can even tell the Miss NH is insecure about aging. She visited a few months back, and unprompted, nervously joked about her having a nice ass, despite having two kids.

JM,
I just thought of something else. You seem very… quick to judge people who you deem “assholes” lately. You won’t read the Rollo post because you think the guy’s a douche. Okay fair, but then do you really have a dog in the fight if you haven’t seen the original source? Are you able to separate the man from his message?

Weirdly enough, I think you’re my male equivalent. I’m frustrated with sluts for a number of reasons (one being that they cheapen the market value of sex). You’re frustrated with assholes because, in a way, they allow for the market value to stay cheap. I’m sure you’re aware we’re on the same team.

A pixie haircut works OK on a Pixie girl. I do not believe there is much sincere energy behind complaints that a teenager like Emma is doing something wrong when she tries to look like Audrey Hepburn in Breakfast at Tiffanies. Heck, I would like it if there was more of that loose in the world.
The offense occurs when a fatty tries it. The effect is like what one sees over at “People of Walmart.com”. It is just wrong.
Re: Bolick. How people rated her looks was 100% related to the amount of anony they had at the time. When they were on camera, of course they will follow the party line. In the wilderness of the blogosphere, there is no reason to lie. And a lot of the pushback against the idea of Bolick-is-so-hot came from, imho the fact that it was being imposed as if from above. The media was trying to declare as fact that all men should be lusting after her as if she were a tremendously valuable mating-prize. It was at this point that some of us felt free to blurt out that the King was (nearly) naked – that what we saw in front of us was a middle-aged woman with an angry face and thickening arms. We did not start it.

VD,

Furthermore, highly intelligent women tend to be very unstable as well as less intellectual than their male counterparts; the smartest woman I ever dated ended up in a mental ward by the time she was 25. Intelligent men simply aren’t looking for intellectual companionship from women the way most intelligent women are, they’re more concerned about intellectual compatibility.

This is really interesting. I was always the brainy kid in school, and I’ve struggled with depression on and off since middle school (episodic depression, not chronic). I think it’s extremely difficult to be an intelligent woman and function like a normal person, and perhaps it’s because of that social component (intellectual companionship) men don’t feel the need to seek out.

I have this private blog I’ve been writing in since 2004, when I was 15. My writing is generally intelligent and thoughtful, and then you hit this section when I go to college where the intellectual quality of the writing decreases significantly. There’s no punctuation or capitalization, and the writing itself is sort of obnoxious and self-absorbed. I suspect I was going through a stage where I was trying to dumb myself down to fit in with my herd (unconsciously, of course). And it was working well. A few months ago, my BF told me I had spent too much time with “stupid people” and that I was becoming like them, so much so that he felt like we couldn’t connect. I immediately realized he was right, and started trying to make a conscious effort to foster intelligence (read the newspapers, write, start looking for professors who would team up with me on research, etc.).

And the result? It’s incredibly lonely, and I’m back to being miserable again. It’s like I can’t win unless I build several different personas, and only my BF and my family get to the know the real one. It’s bad for my mental well-being, trying to be several people at once.

@ VD

Your correct, but thats not something that comes with the intelligence its something women in general have been told from birth. “Your always right.”

Try telling a woman how to be a better parent. I dare you.
You’ll get the same response even if what your saying is correct.

“Women know better” could properly describe the entire mind-set of current Western civilization. That doesn’t mean that intelligence is linked to showing you know better.

If a woman considers herself a good mother (IQ 80) she will defend her mothering abilities as vehemently as the IQ 130 woman talking about philosophy (Aquinas is philosophy, right?). You can aslo find an IQ 80 woman who can take constructive criticism of her parenting style without skipping a beat. Same for the high IQ lady.

Pleasantness is more related to how dettached a women is from outside influences then her IQ.
As well as how often that topic is critiqued. A bad mother who is never critiqued could very well be a pleasant wife. (Bad example but it gets the point across.)

I will concede however most smart women are (in general) bitchy.

But consider this. If you’re dating a woman with an IQ of 80 and she says something stupid, you can simply say “you’re wrong” and she’ll usually accept it at face value. Tell that to a woman with an IQ of 130, and you not only have to conclusively prove to her that she’s wrong, but then deal with all of the various attempts to save face that she’ll subsequently produce because she prides herself on her intelligence.

There are two separate issues here, I think. One is the issue of actual IQ. The other is the issue of self-confidence. Think about it: a confident woman can admit she’s wrong from time to time… her status is not riding on her ability to be “right.” The problem is that you have a lot of high IQ women who also aren’t sure of their value, so they try to base that value on IQ (thanks, feminism). There are women with high IQs who don’t give two shits about status and value, they just want to have interesting discussions. My mom is one of them.

The problem, I suspect, is that smart women are praised and coddled from an early age, and they seldom know how to gracefully handle getting their ass kicked.

This is true. My school teachers coddled me all through high school. My piano teachers, however, kicked my ass. When I got to college, I took piano lessons for the first year, and I met a girl who said our piano teacher made her cry. I’m sure I looked at her like she’d sprouted antlers… frankly, I didn’t think our piano teacher kicked my ass hard enough. My piano teacher in high school used to yell at me regularly. It made me want to work harder.

Bolick is selling books and magazine covers to women buyers. Almost exclusively. Her story flatters them. Do not expect to find much of anything else in such places. It is like the whole genre of relationship-advice lit. It is 90-plus percent consumed by women and so it is just one long repeat of “You are perfect in every way except that you are too humble and love more than he deserves.”
Bolick is just selling emo-porn to girls and women. And yes, that can pay the bills.

@Sassy

“Anyway, I think the key is finding a woman who is smart and is okay with being wrong as well. ”

A person that can’t admit that they’re wrong or can’t admit their mistakes is a huge red flag to me. Every single controlling person that I’ve met is a know-it-all and can’t accept other people’s opinions/ideas.

Jesus,

Ah! Im not one. It had to do more with a savior / superman / codependent complex

Olive,

You won’t read the Rollo post because you think the guy’s a douche. Okay fair, but then do you really have a dog in the fight if you haven’t seen the original source? Are you able to separate the man from his message?

I haven’t been “fighting” Rollo at all, have I?

Susan,

This is getting ridiculous. First you say there are no incentives for women to seduce -putting the blame outside women, hey, women dont know how to be sexy without slutting it up because they dont have a chance- now you change your basic argument to the opposite:

It is female intrasexual competition that dictates how women display their sexuality, and that is what has dictated fashions forever.

Therefore…women have directly controlled what men find sexy over time. And if they went back to dressing in floor length dresses with bustles, men would go back to admiring ankles.

No. Competition is done towards a goal. In intrasexual competition in women the goal is a man. And ultimately the man has all the power there. Women are competing for HIM, he has the final word on who gets it all.

And males compete all day long and form hierarchies, but they do it towards a goal, and the goal is a female, and ultimately the woman has all the power there and decides who gets it all.

So beauty standards change over time. So what?

@Olive
Hey again Olive!

That is awesome about giving half recitals as a teenager! WTG!

As to your piano teacher– I think his method can be like rocket fuel: Amazing trajectory in the *very short term* but long term it just burns out. Because if there is no joy in what you are doing — if you are not playing for the sheer love of music and doing your absolute best to do justice to it– it won’t last.

And having your grandma teach probably had a whole lot to do with you thriving under the method. It would be interesting to know what her childhood was like.

My dad’s violin teacher used to hit him with the bow, glue thumbtacks on the violin’s neck (so if he collapsed his wrist, he would get the crap pricked out of him)– lots of mean disciplinarian stuff. It influenced my dad to be super gentle, though. And I am grateful for it.

PS: I hope things are getting better on your friend quest. I know it’s hard. At least you can hang out here and talk with us, right?
I am having some success through my volunteer group (Humane Society), my book group and my church 20s-30s group. Tons of luck to you, Olive

@Susan (#573)

This was the song that popped into my head when I read your comment…

In olden days, a glimpse of stocking
Was looked on as something shocking.
But now, God knows,
Anything goes.
Good authors too who once knew better words
Now only use four-letter words
Writing prose.
Anything goes.
If driving fast cars you like,
If low bars you like,
If old hymns you like,
If bare limbs you like,
If Mae West you like,
Or me undressed you like,
Why, nobody will oppose.
When ev’ry night the set that’s smart is in-
Truding in nudist parties in
Studios.
Anything goes.

“Anything Goes” was written by Cole Porter in 1934, by the way.

Mike C,

“was telling a guy in a chat the other day how it really is so easy for women and they just overcomplicate it. Do the best you can with God gave you physically. And then just be pleasant and fun. That’s it. That’s enough to generate some initial attraction.”

Easy’s for the slackers and losers in the slow class.

They’ve been raised like men, and now they’re looking for their rite of passage. The harder the better.

Contrary to what Olive claims, his main point is that women are not the arbiters of sexiness.

Rollo had two points:
1) Women don’t get to say what men find sexy.
2) Women have lost the ability to be sexy without being slutty, so it’s slutty or nothing.

I don’t disagree with either of those points.

It’s almost as though some feel that a woman is obligated to display her sexuality.

Ehhhhh. That’s not it, and I am tiring of having to repeat myself. The core issue isn’t an obligation to display sexuality. Display whatever the fuck you want. Look like a Hobbit from LOTR if you want.

What you don’t get to do is state or imply or shame or whatever that men, “real men” should find your very unsexy look sexy. And for God’s sake, if you choose this route then don’t say one damn word about men not showing any interest in you.

Why is this point so difficult comprehend?

VD’s comments on intelligence are 110% spot on. ALL OF IT.

I’ll give you a perfect example of this dynamic. There was a thread awhile back where Malia who I’m sure fancies herself and intelligent woman made an absolutely absurdly stupid comment about statistics. Both Yohami and I called her out jokingly, and then she came back with just more and more nonsense even when I presented my higher level of expertise on statistics and quantitative stuff.

I can’t imagine dating an “intelligent” woman like her. It literally would be an insufferable chore.

Poor guy is a saint I had a particular one that almost made me break my engagement, now they are all in his side, even over me (there is a me just tiny one) those bitches :p

LOL this cracked me up! Your hubby sounds like such a winner, honestly like my BF. Today I was expressing my frustration with friend-finding, and how I’m so thankful that he’s such a good friend. I told him we should go find a hidey hole together and hide from the world, but he didn’t like that idea. He deserves a medal for dealing with my craziness.

We are so going to get banned you know? :p

Pssh nahh, we’re on Susan’s blogroll. She can’t ban us now, mwahahahaha.

Susan,
I hope you’re not disappointed in the fact that I’m not agreeing on this one. In case you had any doubts, I’m totally still on your team.

@ SW

Fair enough. I don’t expect my posts to change Emma Watson’s views – in fact, I don’t expect them to change anyone’s views really. I’ve found it’s extremely rare to truly convince anyone about anything through discussions/arguments.

And I suppose, as you said, I should not police what anyone thinks is sexy. All f ine.

By the same thinking, though, why do you care if other people declare they do not find Emma Watson’s attitude sexy? Whether she is one woman or many woman isn’t so important – you offered her up as a topic of discussion, and that’s what is happening. Would you prefer if the men just didn’t express their reactions to her?

I had no idea how to be sexy without being slutty before I met my SO.

I learned to be sexy, or better yet to be comfortable with being sexy without thinking it made me dumber or less professional after my modeling class, so there I learned it or relearned after I was older and lived in my body for quite a while.

What I object to is the zero sum approach.

What does this mean? What, ***specifically*** do you mean by zero sum approach?

@Jackie:

Props for the “Anything Goes”/Cole Porter reference. I’m not big on musicals generally, but Cole Porter is just fantastic.

@ Mike C

I read some of Rollos stuff yesterday.
Srikes me as a prick, doesn’t mean he isn’t right on some things. (This being one glaring example.)

As for what men deserve, I’d much rather just meet in the middle. But thats not the world we live in, we are expected to go above and beyond for women who apparently can’t be bothered to be seductive because thats reserved for the top males only.

I’m fully on board with the whole being greater than the sum of its parts but not if I’m the one doing all the giving to make the whole better.

Yeah, I think many find his communication style very off-putting. As a blunt, direct, to the point guy myself it doesn’t bother me although I tend to sometime alter my communication style depending on the venue, my mood, and whether or not I think being diplomatic is warranted. I don’t think he does diplomacy at all.

As for what men deserve, I’d much rather just meet in the middle. But thats not the world we live in, we are expected to go above and beyond for women who apparently can’t be bothered to be seductive because thats reserved for the top males only.

I’m fully on board with the whole being greater than the sum of its parts but not if I’m the one doing all the giving to make the whole better.

I suppose yes to most of this. I actually think zero-sum is the wrong concept, there isn’t a fixed pie to divvy up. The real issue here which Susan is correct about is that it is about power and control.

This is a grossly oversimplified model which doesn’t account for the complexity and richness of human connection and emotion but it is a decent rough guide. Basically, what you’ve got in terms of power dynamics is

1. Women being able to dictate the terms and conditions on which men get sexual access.

2. Men being able to dictate the terms and conditions on which women get committed, monogamous relationships.

This dynamic become even more intense when you move higher and higher up the value chain of men. Understandably, I think some women get extremely upset at anything and anybody who actively works to reduce #1 and increase #2 especially when maybe it intersects with personal reasons.

http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/the-threat/

“For a woman, to encounter a man with a healthy awareness of his own value to women, this constitutes a threat. Here is a man for whom’s attention women will demonstrably compete for, AND he knows this. This is the most basic affront to the feminine imperative; to be unplugged, of high SMP value and to derive confidence from it. Therefore, in order to actualize her own sexual strategy, his self-confidence MUST be put into self-doubt, because if such a man were to use this knowledge to his own benefit he may not select her from a pool of better prospective women. Thus she must ask “Are you really sure of yourself? You think you’re so great? Maybe you’re just egotist? Don’t tempt fate.”

Now the interesting thing is women can still “WIN” here. They can find a good, decent guy that they can find something attractive in and build a relationship, a connection, and happiness. We have a number of women here who HAVE DONE JUST THAT.

The alternative is the woman who is an 8 or thinks she is an 8 or just flat out overestimates her SMV, and simply says I can’t be attracted to any guys but the top 10-20% or 8 guys and above and simultaneously thinks she is going to dictate terms to that guys. He’ll just NEXT her every time. That woman will be a consistent loser. We’ve got some of those here as well.

By and large, I still think many women simply have too high of “boyfriend standards” for the corresponding value they bring to the table, and end up sending alot of good boyfriend type guys packing while bemoaning the guys they think they are entitled to who won’t commit. I’ve actually recently gotten some direct from the field information supporting this that I found fascinating and highly ironic.

And how I also have one recent example of how hypergamy is like a shroud in some women’s eyes and the more they age the more they are entitled to the perfect man. Ironic if anything ever was…

@ Mike C

“Definitely. Unfortunately, I think that is naively idealistic.”

Lol. Don’t put me in the happy boat. I think things are going to get worse for guys. Ladies I could really only care about (as a whole) if they would help fix the problem. But I suspect most don’t think theres a problem.

I forsee tribalised, harem style mating being the majority thing within twenty years.

Possible factors to alleviate this,

Male pill. I doubt it because I think as guys we over-estimate the desire of women to have children. (Or I could think we over-estimate because I’m a guy and children are just part of the relationship not something I have any huge desire for.) And even more so we underestimate the desire for other guys to cuckold us.

En-masse MGTOW, again I doubt it would work for the reasons in the previous solution.

Every man learns game. Not gonna happen.

We build a time machine and prevent it from ever happening. This has the most realistic chance or working.

As for your info on the women with too high a standards problem, feel free to post it I know I’d like to see.

Last, as for women simply having standards to are unattainable for 80ish% of men. Yes thats atleast 75% of the problem. Again, I suspect most women would rather be single than be with an average guy.

Personally,
I’m giving up on this wonderful ship that is NA. Theres better places to live with woman who will actually appreciate my sons and men who want P&D my daughters.

Today, the largest growing segment of Viagra users is men 18-25. Men are so accustomed to seeing the female body on the screen, ****many have trouble achieving full arousal with a real woman.****

Susan, I wanted to come back to this comment. You seemed to take particular issue with Rollo’s extrapolation that most women CANNOT arouse men, but here you are saying the exact opposite. So which is it?

Therefore…women have directly controlled what men find sexy over time. And if they went back to dressing in floor length dresses with bustles, men would go back to admiring ankles.

I would alter this that women control what baseline of female body exposure men find sexy. Its like a drug, the more you take of it, the more you need to get the same high. That doesn’t change the fact that women can be sexy in many other ways that go beyond how much of their body they choose to display (showing ankle versus flashing their tits or ass in a thong).

“This makes sense evolutionarily speaking as you’d think women would have evolved the instinct that essentially keeps the species from going extinct.”

No, it does makes sense evolutionarily speaking. Theres 0 reason for her to want to propagate the species. Its all about her, same for men. Propagating the species is a by-product.
Think about it, if a womans sole purpose was to propagate the species she would mate with the first man she could after she popped out a baby every single time.
Thats not how we work.
We are selfish by nature. Whatever (non kin) altruism we show is rising above our genes.

Lokland

I still believe in genuine altruism though.

Yup you´re a guy. I believe too.

Mating is the last place to expect it to appear.

True.

purplesneakers,

To be honest, I’ve had a visceral negative reaction to a lot of the posts here that have been along the lines of ‘only men can define what is sexy.’ I mean, of course, it’s up to men what they find physically arousing, and even that is not in their control so much as hardwired – I don’t think that is up for debate.

Thanks for making sense.

So I’m trying to figure out what bothers me about this so much, and I’d like to think it’s not just ‘but I want everyone’s ideal to be ME!’ And I think it has to do with something Olive mentioned, which is that, basically, I *don’t* feel comfortable ‘being sexy’ the way most girls ‘perform’ ‘sexy’, and which is what most guys my age (college/early 20’s) react to.

That´s the trap, measuring sexiness using the slut bar. If you dont want that game, dont go there, there´s plenty of stuff you can do to be sexy without being like those girls, and there´s a market for you.

The other side of the story of believing that lie, that “men only respond to sluts” is that if you rebel to it, as you should, you end up as a tomboy, totally missing the point.

Another reason is that, the more I think about it, the more I realize I really have been ‘indoctrinated’ with ‘feminist’ ideas like that dressing a certain way to get more male attention is ‘cheapening’ myself.

Funny how feminism can do that while at the same time running slut walks. Be a slut, but make sure you´re non feminine and non attractive. Lol and sad.

Just be a woman, be feminine, be fun do be around, show interest, be warm and attentive and flirty etc. That will open the doors of male attention. No tits in the open involved.

Oh boy. What´s going on. Lets go back or forward. This state of things is insane.

There’s an answer. It’s called Inner Game For Women. I’m working on it. So are many others here, I think.

@Lindsay

On a related note, the guys were burning out in the 90s in my HS, before standardized testing and group-work was widespread. You’d assume that they’d be eager to compete and get into accelerated classes, if the competition was what drove them. But nope. Despite the curriculum of my HS not changing one iota since about 1972, the guys viewed school as “for f*gs/for girls.” My opinion? Later Gen-Xers like us were bombarded with unflattering profiles of academically gifted high school guys in 80s and 90s movies (John Hughs movies are a great example) who never got the girl and never got laid. I think they unconsciously avoided academics because the current media they grew up under told them academics=loner virgin syndrome, forever. Being cool, to guys of my generation, was playing football or becoming the next Kurt Cobain. Making As in physics and biochem, not so much.

That meme was going strong in the ’70s when I was in high school. I bet it started in the ’60s. I admit I was in a blue collar bedroom community. Grading on the curve was prevalent. The other kids assumed that high scorers lowered their letter grades. Talk about punishing excellence!

One of the things I want to do when I get more money is to open a homeless reformation center to feed and clothe the homeless but also to help them to become part of society again so is good to know I might find people that will be willing to join my cause at some point in time.

Ana, that is so nice.

Lokland

Personally,
I’m giving up on this wonderful ship that is NA. Theres better places to live with woman who will actually appreciate my sons and men who want P&D my daughters.

Amen.

I’m not saying that anywhere on this earth is perfect, but the existence of these blogs alone shows that there are serious problems with our culture, especially when it comes to the SMP. It not sustainable and eventually the forces of natural selection will see to it that balance is restored, but I’m not going to sit around here and hope for it to happen in my lifetime.

Olive,

JM,

I wasn’t trying to analyze you.

Could’ve fooled me.

Funny how quick you are to be critical of girls you have problems with but are incredibly tolerant of an asshole like Rollo.
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/02/10/whatguyswant/defining-sexy/comment-page-4/#comments
Not at all? You sure?

Yes, I’m sure. I made an observation. I spent the majority of my weekend being sexy with my girlfriend, analyzing Daniel Defoe’s A Journal of the Plague Year, actually. I have a life beyond HUS, believe it or not.

I think you’re missing my point a bit. I don’t think you need to engage with Rollo in order to have an intelligent discussions with Mike C and Yohami (or anyone, really). Let’s keep the discussion about what it’s about: you didn’t read the post.

That’s been established. I actually didn’t comment on Rollo’s post until about 500 comments in, after having read explanations and excerpts of Rollo’s post by Sue, Yohami, Mike C, and Rollo himself. And even then, it was one comment.

To be honest, the question of who gets to define sexy doesn’t interest me.

You are right. When Rollo stops by, he’s not interested in discussion. He’s interested in making Susan look dumb. I ignored his “clarification” for a reason, because he’s being a douche, he’s on the defensive. But his original post had some interesting points, regardless of whether he’s a douche.

That’s nice. I just don’t have the time to read douche bags in hope of finding interesting points.

Sue,

20 something male virgins have different piles: pile a. girls who will give me the time of day; and, pile b. the rest.

Yohami,

Ah! Im not one. It had to do more with a savior / superman / codependent complex

The superman/savior stuff is shell material.

The codependency is the soft stuff. Or at least it’s the light, muted sound that the shell makes when you tap it, implying something soft on the inside.

Jesus,

Or at least it’s the light, muted sound that the shell makes when you tap it

Pure poetry.

What I meant is whatever soft I have is not hidden – Im very open. So it´s not like Im hiding in the Watson style.

Yet maybe it doesnt matter – the psychological structure can remain the same open or not, shell in the outside and mellow inside.

My first narcissist (first argentina girlfriend) was a drama queen, the second one (last girlfriend) was a happy girl. Very very different personalities but at the end they shared the same structure. I though I was aiming for something different, but seems like I was after the same.

@A, JM

By 50, you have the face you deserve.
Doubly so if you accede to plastic surgery.