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The Politics of the “Single By Choice” Movement

This is the first of a two-part article on the political and economic forces surrounding marriage trends. Part Two may be found here.

Kate Bolick has ridden her Atlantic November cover article All the Single Ladies all the way to fame and fortune. It’s the most read article in the magazine’s history, was optioned as a TV show in development by Sony, and recently generated a book deal in the high six figures for Bolick. The book is titled Among the Suitors: Single Women I Have Loved. The announcement says It develops a sly blend of autobiography and literary portraiture to question the conventional marriage trajectory.

I congratulate Kate on her incredible success. She has clearly struck a nerve, and emancipated single women of a certain age are rushing to join the conversation and celebrate their single status. This is a marked reversal of the spinster lit trend of the last few years, where unhappily single women in their late 30s published memoirs attempting to come to terms with where they went wrong, and reaffirming their vow to continue their search for a life partner. 

Ironically, the feminist media that champions Kate’s choice glossed over Kate’s opening in the Atlantic piece:

The decision to end a stable relationship for abstract rather than concrete reasons (“something was missing”), I see now, is in keeping with a post-Boomer ideology that values emotional fulfillment above all else. And the elevation of independence over coupling (“I wasn’t ready to settle down”) is a second-wave feminist idea I’d acquired from my mother, who had embraced it, in part, I suspect, to correct for her own choices.

…I was her first and only recruit, marching off to third grade in tiny green or blue T-shirts declaring: A WOMAN WITHOUT A MAN IS LIKE A FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE, or: A WOMAN’S PLACE IS IN THE HOUSE—AND THE SENATE.

…What my mother could envision was a future in which I made my own choices. I don’t think either of us could have predicted what happens when you multiply that sense of agency by an entire generation.

Though feminism has brought us here, to a declining marriage rate and a female population more independent and educated than their male would-be partners, Kate Bolick and other women in her shoes are wise to focus on finding their bliss in life without a man. We’re facing at least a generation where a third of college-educated women will not marry college-educated men. This, among other factors, will continue to apply significant pressure to the declining marriage rate. It makes good sense for women to make the best life they can with or without a man, as many will not have the opportunity to marry.

Still, that’s different than championing singlehood over couplehood, which is where the momentum is now. Boston Magazine’s January issue featured an article by Janelle Nanos, Single By Choice, interviewing women (and one man) who prefer to remain single and do not want to be victimized by “singlism,” the social stigmas that unmarried people face. The term singlism was coined by Bella DePaulo, a psych professor at UCSB who is considered “the arbiter of the unmarried agenda.” And that’s the critical point here – there is an agenda that sees much more at stake than personal happiness and fulfillment.

Terri Tespicio, a writer who was interviewed for the article, said:

The idea that I would marry someone I loved has never crossed my mind. At 38, I feel more powerful and sexier and in control than I have ever felt…My life is a best-kept secret, and I wouldn’t trade it. As a single person, the world is my oyster. I’m just sorry that people who are married don’t have that freedom.

Even stronger proof of a political agenda may be found in a statement from Lisa Berkman, a professor at the Harvard School of Public Health who states:

Single people who have strong social ties often have fewer health risks than those “greedy” married couples who isolate themselves.

There will be a great deal more shaming of married people in the next 20 years, as women engage in whatever cognitive dissonance (or hamsterwheeling) is necessary to find an escape from singlism and more importantly, a nagging sense of personal disappointment. The Single By Choice movement is described this way:

They come in all shapes and sizes. They’re young men, who are the fastest growing percentage of those living on their own. They’re well-educated women, who are refusing to “marry down” to their less credentialed prospects. They’re gays and lesbians watching their friends in same-sex couples ensconse themselves behind white picket fences.  Some have taken up their own distinguishing monikers, calling themselves quirkyalones, singulars, onelies or spinsterellas.

In truth, the population most affected by these trends, and they account for nearly all of those who identify with the movement, are never-married women in their 30s and 40s. It remains to be seen whether 20-something women will get on board before they know whether they will have the opportunity to marry. When Kate Bolick asked the young women at our dinner together whether her single status at the age of 39 freaked them out, they all nodded, awkwardly but truthfully. Each one of them also stated that they planned to prioritize having a family over pursuing a career. I suspect that the up and coming generation of women views these celebrations of singleness as a cautionary tale, and they’re anxious to make sure they won’t be calling themselves onelies  or quirkyalones if they can help it.

While I am a supporter of marriage as the bedrock of civilization, I support the right of any individual to choose to remain single, and to find their happiness in life where they will. But let’s not kid ourselves. The Single By Choice movement is political, not personal. 

 

 

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  • GudEnuf

    OCCUPY VALENTINES DAY!!

  • http://grerp.blogspot.com/ grerp

    ”The Fox and the Grapes’ is one of the traditional Aesop’s fables and can be held to illustrate the concept of cognitive dissonance. In this view, the premise of the fox that covets inaccessible grapes is taken to stand for a person who attempts to hold incompatible ideas simultaneously. In that case, the disdain the fox expresses for the grapes at the conclusion to the fable serves at least to diminish the dissonance even if the behaviour in fact remains irrational.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    “We’re facing at least a generation where a third of college-educated women will not marry college-educated men.”

    Perhaps we will see an evolution of status perceptions such that certifications of dubious real value no longer confer automatic status. As more and more people find that their investment of 16-20 years of seat time pays off with a mediocre administrative position (that once would have been done just fine by someone with a high school diploma) or a starvation-wage adjunct professorship, the higher-ed brand is likely to get tarnished, and people–both prospective mates and prospective employers–are going to have to look beyond the degree at the real person. Those that don’t will loose out.

    My most recent post: government lunchbox inspectors in North Carolina

  • http://flavors.me/marktrueblood Mark Trueblood

    It will be interesting to me how long it will take the MSM to honestly investigate why men aren’t marrying. Instead of, you know, asking women why men aren’t marrying and then patting themselves on the back.

    I assume they will stick with their groupthink echo chamber for the most part.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    @Davidfoster

    Agreed. People need to get a skill…., as in learn to do something that most people cannot do. Marketing/Business/Sociology are NOT skills. Nursing and plumbing are.

    “While I am a supporter of marriage as the bedrock of civilization, I support the right of any individual to choose to remain single, and to find their happiness in life where they will. But let’s not kid ourselves. The Single By Choice movement is political, not personal. ”

    I agree with you and with grep. I feel sorry for a lot of these women- most people are told what to do by the media and society and just follow the zeitgeist thinking it will all turn out well. It is highly irresponsible behavior on the part of our media/society.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Flavia…”Marketing/Business/Sociology are NOT skills. Nursing and plumbing are”

    I think marketing and business are definitely skill; but they are skills mainly learned by doing and by observing masters of the art at work. Formal education can help, but it has been overemphasized and leads people to very dangerously believe that they know more then they actually do.

    The overselling of formal education has a great deal to do with many of the problem now plaguing this country. Old American saying: “Never ask a barber if you need a haircut”…should be applied to teachers, professors, and administrators also.

    My most recent post: government lunchbox inspectors in North Carolina

  • asdf

    Women can marry easily, if marraige is what they want.

    Always trust revealed preferences over stated ones.

  • Fingenieur

    Well, it’s a good thing most college papers are bloody useless these days. Especially the ones uncomfortably popular with women. :(

    I think the trend inverses as The Degree will inevitably lose it’s value as a status-totem. Not only will it make decent professional men with traditional occupations and means of living more desirable, but the “too good for blue-collar” women will recover from their inflated view of self-worth as well.

    Marrying up today means marrying to a person with an income. Youth unemployment is easily around 20% in the western countries.

    And I think the change can happen pretty fast as well. Societies always come out of depressions as differently valued entities. Though don’t know whether the hardcore societal negging will help or not…

  • http://www.theincendiaryinsight.blogspot.com DW

    This issue is divided precisely along generational lines. Gen X is currently in their 30s and 40s whereas Millennials are in the 30 and under crowd. Gen X is the biggest loser of second-wave feminism, whereas its looking like Millennials will go a different and somewhat more traditional route in the next couple decades.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @DW

      Gen X is the biggest loser of second-wave feminism, whereas its looking like Millennials will go a different and somewhat more traditional route in the next couple decades.

      That is my sense of it as well. How that plays out in the SMP – whether female hypergamy decreases with different goals, remains to be seen. I’m afraid that women will want to prioritize marriage and family, but will not know how to get it, or at least not know how to avoid making the worst mistakes.

  • Todd

    I think ASDF is telling the truth. Also, there’s a lot of social pressure in holding the ideal, if not the practice, of traditional marriage. They want to throw it all away so they can do as they choose without the social pressure of acting like they really want marriage.

  • Jonny

    The women are obviously not admitting their failures. They are losers. Losers!!! Men write books on winning. Women write books on losing.

    The women are don’t admit they make poor wives and are selfish. Marriage lost its meaning from attrition. We used to know what marriage means from its participants. Today, it is all so clear… Kate Bolick is not marriageable. She is unwanted. She rejected a marriage, thus she became what she rejected.

  • Fingenieur

    Todd:
    > Also, there’s a lot of social pressure in holding the ideal, if not the practice, of traditional marriage.

    That’s definitely true. I think a lot of people following this blog and similar expedintures might underestimate how fulfilling and happy the lives of elderly singles, from their own choices or not, can be.

    Then again it doesn’t matter if it’s artificial, pressure or malicious forces causing the discomfort. If a marriage is something a person thinks she wants, then it’s pretty sensible to work towards that goal instead of focusing on what she might prefer in an alternate dimension.

  • KenG

    A good article – two points:

    1) intelligence & wisdom are not equivalent to “credentialed.” (and I say that, having a doctorate in science.) The women who are assuming that their degrees (largely in liberal arts and social studies) denotes greater intelligence, wisdom, or even knowledge are deluding themselves. I know guys with only a high-school education who have encyclopedic knowledge of sports, technology, and applied-engineering, aka skilled trades: woodworking, electricity worker, machinist, etc. In certain technical specialties, a credential denotes a certain level of knowledge, but in non-technical areas, it doesn’t denote much other than the ability to afford school.

    2) The result of feminist women staying single and childless is a guaranteed demographic shift toward people who have male/female (or m/f/f) marriages. Those people are more religious, less tolerant, less capitalist, far less feminist, and for that matter, less wedded to liberal democracy entirely. The end result is that theocracy will dominate western cultures within a few generations, and liberal democracy/western civilization will fade away, leaving little but oppressive theocratic regimes, as we see throughout most of the world already. Feminists, in their insane delusions about “while male privilege and patriarchy” will be the death of the Western Culture that brought humanity out of the dark ages.

  • blighter

    I predict the ‘Single By Choice’ movement will have the same long-term vitality of that other movement famous for not growing through procreation but only through living such an amazingly awesome life that other people were jealous & decided to follow in their footsteps: the Shakers.

    Fun fact: after dwindling in numbers for years, the last of the Shakers died in 1992.

    Interesting parallel: the Shakers were possibly the first group to institute full equality between the sexes.

  • Anna

    “Single by choice” is nonsense! I’m not saying there aren’t some rare exceptions among women out there who really don’t want and children and really do not want to spend their lives with someone, but for most “fabulous” single women it’s about adjusting to an unfortunate situation, rather than preferring it that way.
    Even if you think you can fill that social gap with friends rather than a partner, will it always stay that way? I know a woman, 38 and single, who raves about her fabulous life and (horror of horrors) refers to her best friend as “wifey”. Now even her best friend is engaged, the rest are getting or just married, and she is running out of options of girlfriends to take on “casual sex” holidays around Europe. I cannot under any circumstances see that as a preferable lifestyle. Your friends have their own lives and maybe their own husbands, the men you sleep with see you as an easy, last resort (especially as a woman enters her late thirties). You are not first choice to anyone.

    I had a bit of this single propaganda during Valentine’s Day. I’m 21 and I’ve never had a serious LTR, but I’ve had shorter things, flings etc, you know… I really wish I had a boyfriend right now. (I’ve just recently started taking interest in new guys). I don’t want a boyfriend because society tells me to, I want one because being in love is a great thing. Also, I do have sexual needs and I’m not planning to sleep around casually (doesn’t give me anything and doesn’t help to end up a slut). So it is a simply equation – good sex with a regular, exclusive partner = boyfriend. I don’t understand how single women do this long term – sleeping around is a poor option (which damages reputation as well) and very few are 100% content with a FWB. Are they asexual or something?
    Nah I miss the body contact, the intimacy, the sex and all that. I can buy as many expensive shoes I want, watch as many episodes of Sex and the City I want, drink so many Cosmos or scream “I’m fabulous!”, but it really has an expiration date. Studies and getting a career is great, but no, it is not enough.

  • Iggles

    blighter – Wow, that was an interesting read on Wikipedia! Lol.
    Indeed I suspect this was a big reason why their movement was unsustainable:

    When Shaker youngsters, girls and boys, reached the age of twenty-one, they were free to leave or to remain with the Shakers. Unwilling to remain celibate, many chose to leave; today there are thousands of descendants of Shaker-raised seceders.

    ;-)

  • http://flavors.me/marktrueblood Mark Trueblood

    blighter: Unfortunately, the “single-by-choice” movement will include a significant subset of “single mothers by choice.”

    Expect increased pedestaling and championing of “strong and independent single mothers” who “don’t need no man.” Subsidized by numerous government cheese programs provided by Democrats, and conspicuously overlooked by chivalrous Republicans.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    “Single by choice” is nonsense! I’m not saying there aren’t some rare exceptions among women out there who really don’t want and children and really do not want to spend their lives with someone, but for most “fabulous” single women it’s about adjusting to an unfortunate situation, rather than preferring it that way.
    ———
    ITA

  • Jonny

    Choice is always part of a phrase that really means one choice. Single because I’m ugly or old or think too highly of self.

  • http:alphagame.blogspot.com VD

    Some have taken up their own distinguishing monikers, calling themselves quirkyalones, singulars, onelies or spinsterellas.

    Sure they have. Sure they have. I would gamble a considerable amount of money that no woman, in the entire history of the planet, has ever seriously called herself a “quirkyalone”. The entire Bolick thing has the distinct aroma of overcompensation… it’s not so much Bolick’s success as a hundred thousand aging hamsters spinning Bolick along for the ride. The ironic thing is that the entire thing is based on a fundamental misreading, as Bolick isn’t single by intentional choice. Her single status is merely the result of her choices and she’s now attempting to make the best of the reality in which she finds herself. Sensible tactic, but distinctly sub-optimal strategy.

    The irony is that her fame and success may propel her into moneyed circles where she’ll meet a 60+ alpha male that she’ll feel comfortable marrying.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      it’s not so much Bolick’s success as a hundred thousand aging hamsters spinning Bolick along for the ride. The ironic thing is that the entire thing is based on a fundamental misreading, as Bolick isn’t single by intentional choice. Her single status is merely the result of her choices and she’s now attempting to make the best of the reality in which she finds herself. Sensible tactic, but distinctly sub-optimal strategy.

      Exactly right. I cannot tell you how surprised I was to see her on the talk shows – already spinning such a different story than she shared at my house. The girls were amazed too. They were saying, “But she wants to get married! She’s really bummed it hasn’t worked out!” I thought that regret was front and center in the piece, but the feminists looked the other way, and Bolick saw where the money was. I don’t blame her for going with the flow. As you say, she will probably make out pretty well in the end, all around. But I’m sure it must irk her to be a tool for the feminists, whom she clearly has no use for.

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    Susan,
    Great post. True and uncomfortable at the same time :-)
    The only part I took on board was the last sentence.

    Grerp and a few others also make the point I am about to make.
    Cognitive dissonance is a badly tolerated phenomenon, especially by women.
    One cannot lie to oneself and not feel the bad after-effects.
    There is a better solution than what these ‘single by choice’ women are offering to themselves. But they won’t take it (the better soultion) even if it were offered free on a plate.

  • Wudang

    ” Gen X is the biggest loser of second-wave feminism, whereas its looking like Millennials will go a different and somewhat more traditional route in the next couple decades.”

    I think it will rather diverge between two segments going in different directions. One will go a more traditional route and one will strongly increase current trends.

  • H man

    Somewhat off topic but I’ve always liked this response to Kay S. Hymowitz’s article by Nick Savoy.

    Society has changed. Women have more power over their own life, and there is less pressure to conform to expectations from family, religion, society at large, etc. So now with more choice on how to life their lives, many women are deciding to do something with their lives other than be the traditional housewife of 50 years ago. It sucks to be a guy today who wants the housewife of 50 years ago, since there are less of them, but people have more choice on how to live their lives now, and that’s a good thing.

    Many women fought hard for this. Some would even call it “feminism”.

    But guess what? Men also have more power over their own life, and there is less pressure to conform to expectations from family, religion, society at large, etc. So now with more choice on how to life their lives, many men are deciding to do something with their lives other than be the traditional husband of 50 years ago. It sucks to be a women today who wants the husband of 50 years ago, since there are less of them, but people have more choice on how to live their lives now, and that’s a good thing.

  • blargh

    @Johnny

    You said:

    “Kate Bolick is not marriageable. She is unwanted.”

    I don’t think so. Her options for marriage are greatly reduced but she is not not marriageable.

    She does not seemingly have any serious impediment to marriage like being a nun or having a serious drug problem or mental illness that impedes her free will.

    She may be past the normal child baring age, and children is what marriage is for, but that doesn’t make her unmarriagble, just disqualified from marrying the suitors who want a wife with a high probability of bearing children.

  • JQ

    We’re facing at least a generation where a third of college-educated women will not marry college-educated men.

    If, of course, they marry at all. Those best educated are in the best position to make an independent go of it. This is doubly true in my limited experience (sample size three) for women who go into engineering, and I suspect other technically oriented fields–the more male dominated the better. Two are in nationally prestigious engineering PhD programs and the third has avoided the recession handily.

    I also found the percentage of singles in Boston (stats from the linked Boston Magazine article) to be quite eye opening. That’s a huge number of potential partnerships. While I am not from the land of Trapper John, given the six degrees of Kevin Bacon principle (IIRC, Facebook has noted the average between any two of their members is four to five), says that Boston should be a prime place to find a spouse. There have been at least three times in the last year when I’ve met or had pitched to me female dating prospects via/by my married friends (all of whom would have been LDR’s, but you don’t pitch your sister unless you mean it).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JQ

      Those best educated are in the best position to make an independent go of it.

      I wonder if there will be women who don’t care about marrying one way or the other, and will happily go with the Single by Choice folks, as there is support in numbers. I believe that most young women still say they want to marry (85% or so IIRC), around 40% of Americans say that marriage is an outmoded institution, and the cohabitation numbers are climbing sharply.

  • Odds

    Fortunately for the millenial girls, most of us guys will happily fall right in line with their newfound desire to cry, “No harm, no foul,” and take them up on that whole relationship thing when they finally decide to do so. Even if it took them until their age and sexual-partner count were both over 30.

    Not all of us, but most.

    I don’t think men beyond the limited confines of the manosphere are really going to learn anything from the last forty years. We’ll just keep chugging along, quietly murmuring whatever the new party line is ten or twenty years from now while continuing to believe in our hearts, as we always have, that it’s a bunch of nonsense. This singlism rationalization won’t take off because it won’t have to. But at least when it hastens the inevitable collapse of social security, we can finally crawl out from under that rock. Silver lining to every cloud.

    The only question left is whether the Great Lowering of Female Standards of 2020 is going to be heartfelt enough (out of legitimate wisdom or mere desperation) that they will be content (not happy, as that’s not in their nature), or whether an entire generation of women will feel like they’ve settled.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Good stuff.

    Kate Bolick asked the young women at our dinner together whether her single status at the age of 39 freaked them out, they all nodded, awkwardly but truthfully.

    Interesting. So the new tactic is to make coupled people shameful, so singles look better. This fits the same agenda of destroying marriage etc.

    Who wins / profits from that? whats the political angle.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami

      Who wins / profits from that? whats the political angle.

      Feminism is the angle. The fish bicycle thing. If women don’t marry those losers who can no longer keep up with them (feminist words, not mine) then female supremacy continues to move forward. Without the encumbrance of husbands and children, women can finally crack all the glass ceilings, including President.

  • pvw

    Interesting! It definitely is a political movement, the single by choice movement.

    A response to social trends, without question, and definitely a response to the traditional perspective of pitying single people, especially single unmarried women, definitely something positive, as you mention: “This is a marked reversal of the spinster lit trend of the last few years, where unhappily single women in their late 30s published memoirs attempting to come to terms with where they went wrong, and reaffirming their vow to continue their search for a life partner.”

    I certainly like this aspect of the trend…I don’t believe single women “of a certain age” are pitiful failures. What is more important in terms of their “success” in my view is their quality of life and the contributions they make to their communities, extended families and so forth.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Though feminism has brought us here, to a declining marriage rate and a female population more independent and educated than their male would-be partners

    More independent how?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami

      More independent how?

      More easily able to support themselves, for one thing. Women in their 20s make 117% of what men the same age make. Now we’ve got the imbalance in education, which will perpetuate and increase this gap over time. If women don’t marry, they won’t be stepping off the career ladder onto the mommy track, so they’ll keep competing with males through their 30s and 40s in the workplace.

      I read yesterday that 14% of young men live at home with their parents after graduation, compared to 8% of young women. The trend is pretty clear.

  • Jonny

    @blargh

    That Kate Bolick has not married yet or have received any proposals when she dumped her previously LTR says a lot.

    Women at her age isn’t unmarriageable by definition. Anyone could be married if one creates the conditions to look for a husband.

    “She does not seemingly have any serious impediment to marriage like being a nun or having a serious drug problem or mental illness that impedes her free will.”

    Yawn. You didn’t state the obvious. She is not a nun, but she is not discerning either. There is a middle that hasn’t been reached. Her drug of choice is probably contraceptives as that has contributed to mental blocks of what a marriage consists of. Her free will has demonstrated she is not marriagable (she will not marry).

  • J

    I was her first and only recruit, marching off to third grade in tiny green or blue T-shirts declaring: A WOMAN WITHOUT A MAN IS LIKE A FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE, or: A WOMAN’S PLACE IS IN THE HOUSE—AND THE SENATE.

    I have to say that even when I was actively campaigning for the latter sentiment, the former confused me.

    I recall the first time I read it on another woman’s T-shirt. She noticed my confused expression and asked what my problem was. I responded, “I don’t understand your shirt; why would a fish need a bicycle?” She replied, “Exactly.” A naive, college-aged J then realized that she had met her first real live lesbian. Memories…………..

  • http://flavors.me/marktrueblood Mark Trueblood

    Nearly any woman (or man) can marry, but it depends on how much they’re willing to lower their standards.

    Lowering standards is what most men have to do just to find a date. I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but women generally perceive their “equals” in sexual market value as inferior and only want to go with the men far above them. And society currently celebrates and financially subsidizes women who “never settle.” This leaves solid and reasonably attractive men with very few options. Far fewer than they would have had in decades past.

    It is good for men and women to have a positive sense of self. But they also need to be willing to engage in rational self-analysis. Identify the people you feel you deserve to marry. Find out what they are looking for. Ask yourself whether you have those characteristics. If not, improve on yourself or lower your standards.

    In the end, I celebrate the cheerleading of spinsterhood, because the more men that avoid the divorce meat grinder the better. Social conservatives, traditionalists, and others who want to preserve marriage need to work on reducing the horrendously lopsided risks that men face. I’m not holding my breath.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mark Trueblood

      Identify the people you feel you deserve to marry. Find out what they are looking for. Ask yourself whether you have those characteristics. If not, improve on yourself or lower your standards.

      Yes, that’s HUS in a nutshell! And it applies to both sexes, though the criteria are different.

  • Jackie

    @PVW

    “I don’t believe single women “of a certain age” are pitiful failures. What is more important in terms of their “success” in my view is their quality of life and the contributions they make to their communities, extended families and so forth.”

    Hi PVW!

    I really liked your comment– especially in regards to success! :) I know both men and women of that “certain age” who are single and don’t consider any of them “pitiful failures.”

    Very often, they have been terribly wounded by someone in their past. If any man or woman wants to go their own way, people should let them go in peace.

    I was taught this “ranking” of relationships:

    Devoted, awesome relationship (usually marriage)
    Single, for whatever reason
    Bad relationship where one/both of the parties is causing damage
    Abusive relationship (not restricted to gender– men can be abused, too :( )

    I wouldn’t promote singlehood, but it is definitely the superior option to being in a bad relationship.

  • J

    The irony is that her fame and success may propel her into moneyed circles where she’ll meet a 60+ alpha male that she’ll feel comfortable marrying.

    I see her as marrying a reasonably well-off, divorced man, 45-50 with kids, and writing about being a stepmother.

  • J

    We’re facing at least a generation where a third of college-educated women will not marry college-educated men.

    Considering that college now guarantees you for virtually nothing, I’m not so sure this is a bad thing. Most of us push college on our kids because it used to guarantee a middle class life. It’s time to look for the next good stepping stone. I myself will not be financing any degrees in basket weaving just so my sons can say they have a degree.

  • Just1X

    As these fabulous singles will be paying for their own education, they’d be best advised to pick the right degrees. If you’re going to run up 50-100k for a “Master’s”, better make sure that you’ll get value for money.

    Luckily “Captain Capitalism” has got a new book out (it’s climbing the Amazon charts as we speak), details are to be found here:

    http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2012/02/well-i-better-inform-you-guys.html

    or go direct to Amazon, if you wish

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1467978302/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=wwwviolentkicom&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1467978302

    He’s an amusing guy too.

    A sample of one of the reviews:
    “He brilliantly dissects those college degrees that have worth and those that are worthless, based on the simple yet staggering truth of Supply and Demand. Further, he helps the college-bound student recognize how spineless parents, teachers, guidance counselors and the like have failed in giving students the truth about a valuable education and going into debt for a worthless one.

    If you plan on going to college to party, follow your bliss, and thinking any degree is a good degree, you are setting yourself up for failure and a low-income job.

    Clarey also argues strongly that you have a moral responsibility to obtain a worthwhile degree. His final “Parting Advice” chapter emphasizes both actually working while schooling and getting a B.S. rather than a B.A. He also demonstrates the value of some 2-year degrees.

    The key is building skills that are in demand. And thus he focuses on STEM: Science, Techonology, Engineering and Math.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      I owe the Captain a book review. Seems like this might be the right time to do it. I read his book and liked it a lot, btw.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Just1X, true. Most STEM degrees will pay a stipend for TAing, or at least not charge anything. It’s degrees like law and MBAs that charge tons.

    The trend now is get an undergraduate degree cheaply, get a decent job at a company that provides tuition reimbursement, and then get your advanced degree.

  • Jackie

    @J (#34)

    “I myself will not be financing any degrees in basket weaving just so my sons can say they have a degree.”

    This sounds like my folks’ attitude. :) I know they valued education but the idea of them “bankrolling” us was unthinkable. My dad said, I respect your abilities enough to let you try for yourself.

    I was a full-scholarship student. :D I remember my ex-fiance being adamant that we pay for our children’s college education so they wouldn’t have to work. They were entitled to it, just like his parents had done for him. In my opinion, entitlement didn’t do him any favors…

  • Anna

    @J
    I agree on college education, although this usually depends on where you live. The US is still not doing well financially, same goes for South Europe. Britain has high unemployment, but this is not in the “upper” classes of society, the problem is really that England has a very large working class, and it’s getting bigger. For most middle or upper middle females, marrying someone from the working class was never an option, degree or not.
    I’m from Northern Europe, and the unemployment is very low. In Norway, if you have a degree in engineering, business or anything along those lines, you’ll be employed while still studying. Those with a Master in business or economics have a starting salary of about $90,000 (when they’re 25). A degree means everything. Doesn’t have to be Ivy League, just has to be somewhat recognized.

    For a lot of people, myself included, it is actually just a matter of having a degree. It was never an option for me to not study. Didn’t have to be medicine or law, just academical. A lot of families feel this way – in the UK and France it’s sort of given that education is necessary to shape your character, teach self discipline, improve language and manners, and not so much about the subject. A man having a degree does not guarantee he’ll always be employed or having a good salary (or back home it does, not in the US), but if he’s from a good family with the kind of upbringing you want, he will always go to college. I don’t think that mindset is going to change in a while.

  • pvw

    Jackie:

    I really liked your comment– especially in regards to success! I know both men and women of that “certain age” who are single and don’t consider any of them “pitiful failures.”

    Very often, they have been terribly wounded by someone in their past.

    I wouldn’t promote singlehood, but it is definitely the superior option to being in a bad relationship.

    My reply:

    Or things “just happened that way,” ie., they were in the market, they were dating, things didn’t work out, incompatible, didn’t meet the right person, etc. Not all single women “of a certain age” were Kate Bolick types when they were younger, and I refuse to see all of them as losers when I know women in that category, I know about their lives and see how they contribute in so many ways to their families and communities, in ways that many people who are married don’t because they “don’t have the time!…”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PVW

      I have read that single people give a great deal more to their communities than married people do. I suspect this is what led to the term “greedy marrieds.”

  • pvw

    Oh, and the NYT had an article about this too in the past few days, that in Western societies, it is becoming more and more common, Eric Klinenburg(?) wrote it, for people to live alone.

  • deti

    Odds:

    +1. There will never be a wholesale marriage strike. Women will still either ride or watch the carousel, men will still marry them, and women will still account for 80%+ of divorces in the US. Some will wise up and stay with the man they married even though they know their men are hopelessly beneath them and in spite of the incessant “you can do better, grrrl!” cries they hear from their BFFs. Some will marry out of desperation and stay with their men because they have no economic alternative as the economy craters.

    @ VD: “The irony is that her fame and success may propel her into moneyed circles where she’ll meet a 60+ alpha male that she’ll feel comfortable marrying.”

    Yep. Kate Bolick is an extraordinary 40 year old single woman. She has opportunities that will be out of reach for nearly all women. No single woman should try to model her life after Bolick’s because it’s a very, very poor strategy. She has an elite education. She writes for top notch MSM outlets. She is attractive, well off, famous, articulate, intelligent, and moves in elite social and professional circles.

    Contrast this with your average 40 year old single never married woman. She has a partner count somewhere between 3 and 15. She has average looks, a short Dutch boy haircut, and 30 extra pounds. She takes Zoloft to relax, and maybe a little high blood pressure. She is a 5/10, maybe a 6 at best.

    She has a master’s degree in social work and slaves away at some state paperpusher job dispensing welfare checks to single mothers at about $45K a year. Or she’s a sixth grade teacher in the public schools, sending snotty brat assholes to the principal’s office for $50K a year. Or she has a high school education and works as a secretary at the local law firm for $25K.

    Her life consists of work, religious services (if she goes), maybe a little volunteering at Goodwill or Planned Parenthood or the Red Cross, and girls nights out at the local night spots. She is worn out at the end of the day. Once in a great while, she treats herself to a massage at the local spa, when she can afford it.

    She goes on a few dates a year, even maybe has sex with one or two of them. But none of the men she knows want to marry her. They are all lonely heart GAMMA bachelors who never could find the right woman; divorced, impoverished men who have sworn off marriage forever; or confirmed bachelors reveling in their SMVs (she is the 56th date he has had this year and it’s only April).

    So the average woman will not look forward to the Kate Bolick lifestyle. It is the drudgery of work, loneliness and spinsterhood. Hope it was worth it, feminists.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      women will still account for 80%+ of divorces in the US.

      When did it go up from 2/3?

  • Lokland

    I think post-sec education is going to change drastically within the next 10-15 years.

    Liberal arts will probably be removed entirely. Its on par with basket weaving in most cases.

    The system as it stands right now is simply not feasible. Too many schools, prices that are too high with costs through the roof. Uni’s need to be streamlined to be both profitable and affordable.

    I’ll take a look at this from a basic B.Sc undergrad degree (cause thats what I know) and say what I think will happen.

    Going to class will be non-existent. You have to pay the guy to stand up there instead of doing his research. Bad for business.
    Improvement: Make all classes online. Attendance can either be mandatory or voluntary, irrelavant really. This way the prof. can give the lecture once, record it and set it out. AND NEVER REDO IT. (Atleast for certain subjects, intro calculus being an example.)

    Cost saved, tons on wasted time and salary.

    Now theres gonna need to be in-class tutorials to help the kids figure stuff out. Thank god for TAs.

    Also, most unis don’t give a shit if you flunk out. It will be good to weed out those who want to party and those who want to study.

    Also, it will expand the pool of applicants. Certain classes could be exclusively online. You can literally have tons of people taking a class with only one lecture per lesson. (For example, my first year bio class was 1000 kids. There were 3 sections. Twice a week. That was 6 hours of some poor profs time every week saved.) Instead 3000 kids who can watch the lecture whenever they want.

    And finally the good bit, people can manage school into their own schedule allowing them to work/drink/slut it up or do whatever the hell it is they want and do school on their time.

    Online schools have a bad rep right now, but within 20 years I think they might be the norm. Low cost, high capacity.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      The college experience, including the social piece, is something that all American kids want. Four years, on campus, away from home. Party on. I don’t think it’s going away soon, if ever.

  • deti

    Continuing from my previous post:

    Or, if she’s lucky, she’s a partner at the law firm, pulling down $200K a year. But she works all the time and has very little time for a social life. She doesn’t just have heart trouble, she has panic attacks and is on two antidepressants.

    She has short term relationships that never work out, for whatever reason. Most men are beneath her and she refuses even to consider them for dating. Of the men she has dated, they just never worked out or she never made time for them. This one was separated but went back to his wife. This one wanted to marry her, but he was only a high school teacher and not good enough for her.

    That one was a Brad Pitt lookalike, but he was her neighbor’s gardener and so she had to settle for hot, illicit sex with him on the downlow. (What would her partners think if she brought him to the charity balls and the bar association functions?) She slept with him for a few months only because he was so hot, his di*k was so big, and he looked so good in her bed. She had to move on when she found out he was also banging her neighbor and the neighbor’s 20 year old daughter home from college for the summer.

    This one was hot, but cheated on her. That one is a lawyer too and they really loved each other, but neither made the time for a real lasting relationship. That one was her Mr. Big, but his work and hobbies were more important. (She’s so, so attracted to that last one even though he treats her like shit. She cannot figure out why she is so attracted to him.)

    Anyway, that’s her life. Hope it was all worth it.

  • Escoffier

    I got the distinct impression that Bolick’s article was a web of rationalization. She is not really happy, did not want this to happen, and now need to build an edifice to convince herself that everything is great.

    Susan, you actually met her, so you would know better, but it just rang false to me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      She and I spent several hours talking on the phone, and then she spent 6 hours at my house. The dinner went very late. I heard a lot of regret, and some real sadness. She would like to marry and have children, if possible.She spoke in detail about her previous relationships after she dumped Allan at 28, and why they didn’t work out. She moved to LA for the most recent one, and when she got there, he told her he just didn’t feel happy to see her there. She has maintained two residences since then, one in NY and one in LA. By the way, she had planned to be a “fly on the wall” and not participate, but she got talking with the girls, and she shared a lot of very personal information as well.

      At the same time, though, she was intrigued by some of the ideas she explored in the piece, like “friend families” and communities of single women like the one she visited in the Netherlands. She was actively trying to plan a life that would not require a man to find contentment. She said that her life was only half over, and she didn’t want to feel depressed about the rest of it. That’s why I support any woman who finds herself in this situation and refuses to give up on living a full, productive and rewarding life.

  • Mike C

    Two words here. Confirmation bias.

    Nothing complex here. Once a person realizes they probably are not going to get something, the the next logical step in the process is to convince themselves they didn’t really want it in the first place, and that in fact what they have is really superior. Its just a mental self-defense mechanism.

  • http://stuartschneiderman.blogspot.com/ Stuart Schneiderman

    Could it be that some of the women who are claiming that they are happy to be single are really using a bit of reverse psychology? If they say that they want to get married, they sound desperate. If they say they don’t want to get married they are just playing very hard to get.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stuart

      If they say that they want to get married, they sound desperate. If they say they don’t want to get married they are just playing very hard to get.

      Welcome, that’s a very interesting question. I bet some of them do. I’ve heard that Kate B has gotten a bunch of marriage proposals. I’m sure most of them are from strangers on the internet, but I imagine that Lori Gottleib got zero proposals after writing Marry Him. I can’t imagine this tactic would work for the average woman though – can you?

  • Anna

    @ Stuart
    That is DEFINITELY the strategy. I know a woman whom uses this angle: when a friend says she’s got a great guy to fix her up with, she says “let’s see, I’m not easy to catch!”. She is 38 and single, a party girl. If you want a family and don’t have it at 38, you have failed. There are limits to how ‘picky’ a person can be before they are plain unrealistic or are just overestimating their value. It is sensible to target high quality men/women if you have options, but I am so tired of hearing people say they are “just picky” when I know for a fact that they aim too high and have no self-awareness.

  • dragnet

    Putting aside the “sour grapes” aspect of this “movement” there is an even more basic consideration: whether or not any society has a vested interest in its constituent members reproducing.

    Singles don’t face social shaming because people are mean, frumpy, old-fashioned, or because society hates fun and can’t handle the girl-power of a take charge no-nonsense women totally aware of her intelligence and sexiness. No, singles face a degree of social shaming because it’s in every civilization’s interest that its men and women come together to make babies in sufficiently large numbers. The day this doesn’t happen, is the day your civilization begins to die—just check Japan which is projected to lose a third of it’s population by 2060. Social shaming alone won’t solve the problem, clearly, but shame has always been a part of the equation throughout human history.

    As usual, the best solution is compromise. As a 28-yr old single man, I understand and accept the—fairly mild, in the grand scheme of things—social shaming directed my way because I realize that society has an interest in my reproduction. However, it is not in my best interests or desire to reproduce at this time, and so I respond by developing thicker skin, enjoying my life and doing whatever the hell I want. What I don’t do is gin up a social movement to get the society in which I live to adopt anti-civilizational attitudes.

  • Mike C

    Massive kudos to Bolick by the way. One of the great opportunities in America is the ability to monetize just about anything including a heaping steaming pile of horse manure. Ring that register baby and laugh all the way to the bank. Should buy one hell of a shoe collection.

  • deti

    Mike C:

    Yup. It’s too bad that single women in their 30s and 40s across the US will look at Bolick and say “I can do that too! Maybe I won’t get a book deal or a TV show, but I too can live the glamorous life and make lots of money! And I don’t need a man to do it!”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s too bad that single women in their 30s and 40s across the US will look at Bolick and say “I can do that too!

      Did anyone else think it was totally bizarre, and not believable, that a 38 year-old woman has “never in her life” imagined finding a partner? And that she feels sorry for married people?

  • Jackie

    @Deti (#42)

    Deti, I am not disagreeing with any of your examples (hypothethicals, composites, people you’ve known?). But would they be any happier in marriage? Or perhaps even UNhappier? Is the problem truly their singleness? If not, what is it?

    From my perspective, I have seen people happy and unhappy, single and married. With kids or childfree. I agree with Lincoln,
    “Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.”

    PS: I responded to your post on the earlier thread, re:raising children. Kindest regards to you & your family–

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Lokland, on paper and in theory that sounds great. We could start kids young and get them all in front of a computer screen to watch lectures.

    In practice that is not the best way for learning to happen. My husband is an amazing and gifted teacher, and in another time and place if such talent was appreciated he would be a teacher. He was able to get people to understand complex math concepts because of that gift. I can’t wait until he gets to tutor our kids.

    There is research that shows babies learn a foreign language rapidly from a live person talking to them, but show no signs of learning when the same language is simply shown on TV. The human connection, knowing that another person cares about your progress and knows who you are, the subtle back-and-forth and interactions all facilitate learning.

    I’m a big fan of technology, taught myself how to code and use a variety of computer applications over 10 years ago, before the dot-com boom and before Google got started in a garage. But I’m not going to have our kids sit in front of a computer all day and be happy with just that. You just can’t replace learning from another human being.

  • sestamibi

    I’m 61, been married almost 15 years now, so I have quite a bit of experience being single much longer than usual, with insight into both sides of this issue.

    Our 13-year old son is low-functioning autistic. He resists toilet-training and well . . . let’s just say our clothes washer runs almost continuously and we spend a good chunk of our income on laundry detergent and bleach cleaner for the walls and the floors.

    Still, if I compare what I had before to what I have now, I can only say I wish I had what I have now back then. This is a far better life and I wouldn’t wish Part I on anyone.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @sestamibi

      Thank you for sharing that lovely sentiment about your family life. I find it very moving.

  • deti

    Jackie:

    I get your point. But my point is the poor decisions that often lead to a woman reaching age 40 without marrying. Usually it’s because she believed she could wait and assumed wrongly that a man of her liking would simply appear when she was ready to marry. Or she broke up with or simply never pursued men who were interested in her years ago.

    The second point is that Kate Bolick presents the female apex fallacy. Many single women will look at Bolick and conclude incorrectly that their lives are fabulous and that they, too, will lead the oh so glamorous life. The problem is that Bolick and her situation are a rarity. Only the most prestigious, beautiful, and financially successful 40 YO single women can live a life like Bolick. She will have opportunities that the vast majority of single women will never have. For most women, it is a life of work and drudgery.

    How do I know this? I’ve read scads upon scads of articles by women in their late 30s and early 40s who desperately want husbands and children. They approach it from two angles: either (1) they know it is too late, and they are wailing and gnashing their teeth; or (2) they cling to small slivers of hope that one day their princes will come and they will have their first babies at age 42 because after all they know some friend’s cousin who had a baby at that age and so they can too.

    They bemoan that they have to hold down jobs and work like men, because they have no husbands to help and support them. They bemoan the dearth of people in their lives. They go years without the touch of another human being.

    This is what feminism fought for? A nation of spinsters and players?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Japan is one of the least gender equal developed countries. Feminism is not big there. Yet they have incredibly low birth rates, as dragnet pointed out. I think urbanization, high population densities, high living expenses and other cultural factors contribute to this.

    It may be worthwhile to mention here that Kate Bolick is an urban woman who likely has lived in big cities for most of her life. It may be the urban effect at work, too. People in large cities tend to marry much later, have kids much later if at all, and generally have higher living expenses.

    The sole exception, I’m guessing, would be Salt Lake City. :P Though even here, people in the surrounding suburb and rural areas get married earlier and have more kids.

  • Jackie

    @Deti
    Hey again Deti,

    I think we are both on the same side: I am no fan of feminism and am probably one of the most religious/morally conservative people here. I would *love* for people who long to be married to find true love and create strong families!

    I truly feel for those women you write of who wish they had children and don’t. Really. And I despise the idea of glamorizing things for “regular folks.” (To me, this is the equivalent of the opening rounds in ‘American Idol’: the delusion of the brilliant singing career is punctures in the face of reality — and the televised audience :( )

    So maybe it’s because of my experiences that I feel differently: There have *always* been spinsters. (I was re-reading a passage about them in _Little Women_ by Louisa M. Alcott– a spinster herself!) Work will *always* be hard. I would say it will be even harder with kids, esp. if you are trying to balance a job to pay the family’s bills.

    But there are all kinds of possibilities for love, community and family, even if you don’t get married. I have seen it.

    I hope I *do* get married. I’ve been preparing for it for quite some time. But after a broken engagement behind me, I am *much* more amenable to a person being by themselves than being with the wrong person. (And potentially damaging their children.) Does this make any sense, Deti? Thanks for considering my view–

  • deti

    Jackie:

    I hope you get married too. The spinster phenomenon is an enormous tragedy, personally for the women who live it, and societally for all of us. The consequences are legion: Childless, spouseless women having no one to care for them will look to the government for care in their old age. She might have had her kids care for her, or be able to live on a husband’s pension or life insurance, but she can’t do that because she never married.

    The mental health costs will be huge. The medical care costs will be huge. Women are by far the largest consumers and recipients of medical services.

    that’s just what I can think of off the top of my head.

  • Paco

    The one thing legitimate “Single By Choice” people have in common is that they almost *never* mention their relationship status, never talk about marriage, never talk about exes and never disparage the opposite sex.

    A lot of women fake the funk and claim “oh, I’m single by choice because I don’t believe in marriage/have a great life/etc.” but by their even mentioning their marriage status they betray themselves as seeing their life choices in relation to coupledom.

    I have a true blue single-by-choice friend (who, incidentally, has an awesome life and is very happy) and I finally asked her about not being married/coupled with her after knowing her a few months. She approached it kind of like if someone had asked me why I’ve never visited Croatia: quizzically and with “Well, I’ve just never thought about it much. If I wanted to, I would. But I don’t, so I won’t.”

  • Anna

    I think older single women can live a “fabulous” lifestyle up to a certain point. It’s basically what SATC is built upon! Although Carrie’s lifestyle is really not realistic for her income (her apartment would have had a high rent, designer wardrobe etc), the principle is the same. In a way it is more expensive to be single, but the advantage is that you only have yourself to worry about and have complete freedom on how you spend your money. A single 30-something woman doesn’t have the costs you are forced to have when married – she can have noodles for dinner for 4 nights and get a designer item later. She can live in a studio apartment, have no mortgage. She doesn’t build up anything and she doesn’t save, but she can very well award herself certain luxuries. Jimmy Choos are expensive for being shoes, but the price is relatively low to a total income – I know plenty of women who buys lots of designer, even if they are not well off (and without using credit cards). This kind of lifestyle has become very popular, especially with Facebook – you book a holiday in South of France, get a super cheap hotel, bring your designer clothes, spend your money on drinks and a rented yacht, take the photos and upload = super glamorous lifestyle. If you take care of yourself, you can pull rich men in nightclubs still at 35, you leave your studio flat in a short dress and heels and have Cosmos at the local hotspot. Even keep the guys as FWBs, and your interactions with them (even if it’s only their comments on your FB photos) increase your friends’ impressions that you are glamorous and popular. It’s a fun life for sure, but past 40, I think most find it sad. When you can’t even pull those guys anymore, it’s just you and the girls and the shoes.
    I’m just realizing how many friends I have like this and how many I know of.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    I just hope this doesn’t turn into another Politically Correct law.

    An earlier poster said something about Millennials not being as bad about this. I sure hope they’re right, speaking as a Millennial myself.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Mark Trueblood

    In the end, I celebrate the cheerleading of spinsterhood, because the more men that avoid the divorce meat grinder the better. Social conservatives, traditionalists, and others who want to preserve marriage need to work on reducing the horrendously lopsided risks that men face. I’m not holding my breath.

    +1.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Hope

    Japan is one of the least gender equal developed countries. Feminism is not big there. Yet they have incredibly low birth rates, as dragnet pointed out. I think urbanization, high population densities, high living expenses and other cultural factors contribute to this.

    Have you heard of the ‘herbivore/grass-eating’ movement? I think feminism is bigger in Japan than you realize…

  • http://stuartschneiderman.blogspot.com/ Stuart Schneiderman

    I’m glad that Anna brought up Sex and the City. Perhaps I’m showing my age but, to me the women on the show act like 40 year old teenagers. They say that they are thrilled and happy being single because they have followed the feminist life plan and because that life plan did not just promise great career success… it also promised that a woman who was independent and autonomous would find a perfect man, a soul mate, who would love her for her true greatness and would not be turned off by having to support her or overly obsessed with her sexual attractiveness.
    If they act like teenagers they are not just suffering from the female equivalent of the Peter Pan complex. They are also nostalgic for a time when they had a far better selection of available men.

  • Sassy6519

    Some have taken up their own distinguishing monikers, calling themselves quirkyalones, singulars, onelies or spinsterellas.

    None of those names sound the least bit pleasant to be called. I’d rather give my left foot than to be called a “spinsterella”.

    Aside from that, I definitely have no aspirations to be single for the rest of my life. Life without someone to love seems rather bleak to me.

  • Tony Stark

    @dragnet

    “Singles face a degree of social shaming because it’s in every civilization’s interest that its men and women come together to make babies in sufficiently large numbers.”

    +1

    Social customs which favor coupling between the sexes don’t reflect some kind of normative judgment that married people are necessarily happier or better-off. They exist to incentivize procreation and investment in child-rearing, something society needs to survive. Why more people don’t grasp this is beyond me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tony Stark, @dragnet

      Social customs which favor coupling between the sexes don’t reflect some kind of normative judgment that married people are necessarily happier or better-off. They exist to incentivize procreation and investment in child-rearing, something society needs to survive. Why more people don’t grasp this is beyond me.

      Agree 100%. I’m a believer in social sanctions, aka shame, as a means of preserving civilization. This is one of the primary purposes of organized religion, and it is found in our legal system as well. Every culture uses shame to control the behavior of its citizens to benefit the whole clan.

      I get a lot of resistance, mostly from women, when I say that I favor slut shaming. But that’s an aspect of female intrasexual competition we could use a lot more of.

  • KK

    Heh, this is about equal parts amusing, sad and impressive. The feminist movement won, found out that the award was just a big pile of lemons, yet proceed to make lemonade anyway, never questioning the base assumptions that led them here. On some level, you just have to admire that.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I don’t know what to think the movement will be strong because is based on lies. Had you ever seen a movie/book/series in which a single woman that choose career over love regrets that choice and is miserable placing a facade while she fills her life with material goods to ease the pain? The only women’s choices allowed to show unhappiness and regret are motherhood or marriage. So of course women will support everything that makes the single life valid and perfect and the married life as oppressive and limiting. Thus we are going to be divided in two camps. The question would be who wins? Single vs Married….any takers?

  • Jonny

    @Anna ” It’s a fun life for sure, but past 40, I think most find it sad. When you can’t even pull those guys anymore, it’s just you and the girls and the shoes. I’m just realizing how many friends I have like this and how many I know of.”

    Doesn’t the fun wear off at 35? By 35, the girls done this for 15 years.

    Women’s looks start deteriorating at 35. Some start showing wrinkles unlike men who have thicker skins. I still look youthful at 45. For myself, partying doesn’t work anymore. It’s more work than fun. Drinking, dressing up, and dancing is so immature. It seems so silly, yet that’s what educated and fully employed women do on a weekend. It’s an adult princess coming out party.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Susan
    I will add that in the recent climate the consequences of her going against the stream would be worse for her. The sisters would do everything within their power to destroy her career and she doesn’t have enough things in common with conservatives. Liberals can be pretty heartless to a traitor to the cause, IME.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      I will add that in the recent climate the consequences of her going against the stream would be worse for her. The sisters would do everything within their power to destroy her career and she doesn’t have enough things in common with conservatives. Liberals can be pretty heartless to a traitor to the cause, IME.

      True, I hadn’t thought of that. There’s no question she made the sensible choice. I would probably have done the same.

  • Iggles

    @ CrisisEraDynamo:

    An earlier poster said something about Millennials not being as bad about this. I sure hope they’re right, speaking as a Millennial myself.

    Me too :) I’m also a Millennial. I’m a child of divorce, but I’m not anti-marriage. On the contrary, I want to get married and have kids in the not too distant future.

  • PV

    “There will be a great deal more shaming of married people in the next 20 years”

    Susan, you are the first I’ve seen to mention this.

    I’m glad to see we’re are getting away from the old stereotype of the pitiful spinster with her 20 cats. However, I can see a “singlism” movement coming because single people feel they are discriminated against in the workplace and penalized by the government when it comes to things such as taxes and social security.
    Society benefits when children are brought up in two-parent homes with a married couple. Study after study shows a family headed by a married couple is better for children than a single family home and unwed couple home. As the percentage of singles rise they could become an important voting bloc that could bring about some big policy changes in the government.

    And what’s this sneering about “greedy” married couples?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Got it. Feminism = no marriages. Independence = more money. Both right.

  • Lokland

    @ Hope

    I disagree its started already. Legitimate unis giving classes online.
    Not uncommon, I agree however himan contact is required. Its simpler to give the lesson online and then have one/two tutorial sessions for Q&A delivered via TAs.

    Labs (science) would also need to be done in class because they are more skill building oriented than anything else. That would require a professional giving direct instruction with TA assistance.

    The other big advantage is that your not limited to researchers/professors to give lectures. Professionals who have worked in the field for a certain amount of time would be able to lecture online, from different cities. (Had one of those from a biotech. consultant in the states in my thrid year, not the full course just a segment.)

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    I didn’t say remove the campus, I said toss the classroom.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      I didn’t say remove the campus, I said toss the classroom.

      But if classes were all online, and could be taken remotely, who could justify the 50K a year to send a kid to a campus?

  • Robber

    When these women couldn’t or wouldn’t marry the men available to them, the media celebrates these Single by Choice singletons.

    When a man goes MGTOW he’s a bitter loser who couldn’t get laid.

  • sweetsue

    People should be free to live in a manner that best pleases them as long as it harms no one else. For some reason various segments of the population want to force others to conform to their idea of what suits them best. Living their truth is not enough for them they crave validation of that choice from others and are willing to force their view on others to get it.

    Congratulations to the author of the book and magazine article for what she has accomplished. It however seems forced; as though people writ large and trying too hard to be happy or at least appear that way.

    People who are honestly happy or content with the choices they make and the state in which they find themselves. They tend not to be concerned about others actions unless those actions threaten their happiness; or others are in distress or in need of help.

  • pvw

    Social shaming of singles…

    My reply:

    It is a normative judgment that single people are pathetic regardless of the circumstances of their singleness….It puts single people on the defensive as though they have to justify their status….This movement is a political one to remove the stigma…

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Interesting piece by James Taranto here.

    My most recent post: government lunchbox inspectors in North Carolina

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      Thanks, I’ll be featuring the Taranto piece in Part 2!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    It is a normative judgment that single people are pathetic regardless of the circumstances of their singleness….It puts single people on the defensive as though they have to justify their status….This movement is a political one to remove the stigma…

    Mmm no is to place the stigma into married and procreating couples. if the movement was pro single and not anti marriage they won’t be talking about married people as greedy neither call people with children breeders or bad environmentalists. The whole shaming of single is perceived aside from the manosphere sites no one shames single women, of course everyone shames single men and ask them to man up. But given that this is a movement led by women I’m not unsurprised of that.

  • JQ

    Japan is one of the least gender equal developed countries. Feminism is not big there. Yet they have incredibly low birth rates, as dragnet pointed out. I think urbanization, high population densities, high living expenses and other cultural factors contribute to this. –Hope @ 56

    I lived there for a couple years after college for work and have many expat friends who married Japanese women. The GOJ offers large subsidies to families with children, so money isn’t really an issue. I remember my friends saying the deal they got from the GOJ because of their kid’s dual citizenship was better than the benefits they got from work (namely, heath care plus cash).

    My impression is that the Japanese situation is a confluence of very unique factors, including a hesitancy to express romantic feelings because to do so when they are nonreciprocal would be considered near the height of rude in a culture where politeness is king.

    @ Susan in re 74

    There is probably a percentage, but there has always been one. I have female peers who have expressed a desire to get married but also needing it to fit into their overall plans for their lives with career taking the number one spot and only stepping down if and when they find a man and they only want kids, again, if it can fit well into where they are in their careers.

    IIRC one of the female engineers I mentioned while in college actively rebuked a suitor she reported as “very interested” because she wanted to focus on her education and not become distracted. I don’t know to what extent this is typical behavior. It could be very easy for “not in undergrad” to turn into “not until my career is launched” to turn into “not until I become middle management” /“not until I have a nest egg”, etc.

  • http://sexlifeandromance.com/forum.php Maxamillian

    I think the negative social implications of being single as we get older is going to phase out more and more as time passes. With divorce rates being as high as they are, younger people are starting to view being single at 28-45 as normal. I personally hate it when people feel pressure socially to do anything with their lives, I’m glad you touched on this topic.

  • Lovelost

    @HUS

    CH has a very interesting post indicating that educated women are more into Hypergamy. The study was designed from good universities in the country. Looks like academia is really zoned in on this issue.

  • Tony Stark

    @ Susan:

    “She was actively trying to plan a life that would not require a man to find contentment. She said that her life was only half over, and she didn’t want to feel depressed about the rest of it. That’s why I support any woman who finds herself in this situation and refuses to give up on living a full, productive and rewarding life.”

    Perhaps I’m missing something but doesn’t this statement fly in the face of HUS’s core mission? I thought the point of this site was to help people (young women especially) navigate the path to happy marriage? Kate Bolick is a prime example of what NOT to do if marriage is the goal. She could get hitched tomorrow but chooses not to because a) she thinks none of her potential mates are good enough, and b) she refuses to sacrifice any of the independence that comes with being single. Yet, she’s also lonely/unhappy, and the entire Atlantic piece was 11 pages of word vomit attempting to rationalize her past decisions and current unwillingness to change course.

    It bears emphasizing: today’s young women are only resigned to Bolick’s fate if they choose it. The college enrollment statistics are alarming, but men haven’t disappeared. If women are outpacing men in educational attainment but still wish to marry, they can marry men of lower educational status. This might not be ideal, but in the long run it’s a lot better than settling for “friend families” (or cats). What it will require is a change of perspective in the short-term, something that (I thought) HUS existed to provide.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tony Stark

      It bears emphasizing: today’s young women are only resigned to Bolick’s fate if they choose it. The college enrollment statistics are alarming, but men haven’t disappeared. If women are outpacing men in educational attainment but still wish to marry, they can marry men of lower educational status. This might not be ideal, but in the long run it’s a lot better than settling for “friend families” (or cats). What it will require is a change of perspective in the short-term, something that (I thought) HUS existed to provide.

      Yes! I’m glad you said that. Let me be clear. I do not wish Kate Bolick’s life for anyone who wishes to marry. I’m simply saying that giving what has already happened, and the very real possibility that she may not find a life partner, I don’t begrudge her the positivity she’s deploying in trying to plan out the remainder of her life as a single woman.

      Kate Bolick is indeed a cautionary tale from a HUS perspective.

  • pvw

    Mmm no is to place the stigma into married and procreating couples. if the movement was pro single and not anti marriage they won’t be talking about married people as greedy neither call people with children breeders or bad environmentalists. The whole shaming of single is perceived aside from the manosphere sites no one shames single women, of course everyone shames single men and ask them to man up. But given that this is a movement led by women I’m not unsurprised of that.

    My reply:

    I meant the general social perception outside of this movement; without question, women are judged in general society based upon whether or not they are married. I can recall, from being as a young teenager into young adulthood, when chatting with other girls, relatives or friends of the family, the question would come up, do you have a boyfriend, are you dating? And the same applied when I got older and before I married, “are you married,” there is a general expectation that if a woman is of a certain age she should have checked off “the marriage box.” And if she hasn’t, eyebrows will be raised. Or even in the “getting-to-know-you” among other women, often the questions will follow, are you married, do you have children?

    JQ:

    @ Susan in re 74

    There is probably a percentage, but there has always been one. I have female peers who have expressed a desire to get married but also needing it to fit into their overall plans for their lives with career taking the number one spot and only stepping down if and when they find a man and they only want kids, again, if it can fit well into where they are in their careers.

    My reply:

    I have seen it as well. They see what can happen to women who make the sacrifices, marriage and then divorce, etc., after having children, they figure the best gamble they can make is on themselves.

  • Ad*m

    As a father, I wonder why these ‘great singles’ expect my children to take care of them once they turn 67? If they take care of anyone, it will be my wife and me. And one can raise taxes on young people only so much before it hits a wall.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ad*m

      As a father, I wonder why these ‘great singles’ expect my children to take care of them once they turn 67? If they take care of anyone, it will be my wife and me. And one can raise taxes on young people only so much before it hits a wall.

      I’m sure they would say it’s payback for the government’s subsidizing marriage, which it should do as the economy will tank without a healthy childbirth rate.

      My husband just read the book 2030 by Albert Brooks. In it, cancer has been cured and the Boomers look better at 65 than they did at 50. And the younger generations despise them, because they are a huge drain on economic resources.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    True, I hadn’t thought of that. There’s no question she made the sensible choice. I would probably have done the same.

    Yeah I still hope she will manage to get the message at some point in her series. Maybe having one of the happy single being actually miserable and unhappy about it. Employing a minor character to actually say what she meant is the best we can hope to actually get her point across.

  • Lindsay

    People should be free to live in a manner that best pleases them as long as it harms no one else. For some reason various segments of the population want to force others to conform to their idea of what suits them best. Living their truth is not enough for them they crave validation of that choice from others and are willing to force their view on others to get it.

    This. As long as the hypothetical person doesn’t gab ad nauseum about their singledom – same goes for their MBA, IQ, or pecs – it doesn’t seem like a big deal. When people talk constantly about how relationships are so overrated, and that’s pretty much all they talk about, they doth protest too much, methinks.

    Regarding the state of college education today, there is a documentary called “Declining by Degrees: Higher Education at Risk” which can be accessed on YouTube. While it was not the highlight of my weekend video-watching – that honor belongs to that infamous debate @ Notre Dame between D’Souza and Hitchens – it was pretty absorbing at times. It’s about 2 hrs. long, broken up into 11 10.5-minute segments.

    I don’t like the idea of shaming because it wasn’t too long ago that it was used as a silencing tactic against minorities, the poor, gays, etc.

    I have a lot of programming homework to do now, so sayonara ’till next time.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I meant the general social perception outside of this movement; without question, women are judged in general society based upon whether or not they are married. I can recall, from being as a young teenager into young adulthood, when chatting with other girls, relatives or friends of the family, the question would come up, do you have a boyfriend, are you dating? And the same applied when I got older and before I married, “are you married,” there is a general expectation that if a woman is of a certain age she should have checked off “the marriage box.” And if she hasn’t, eyebrows will be raised. Or even in the “getting-to-know-you” among other women, often the questions will follow, are you married, do you have children?

    Doesn’t, most people assume people of certain age is married because statistically speaking most of those people will be married? Since when asking that became a judgment and not a way to make conversation?

  • pvw

    Doesn’t, most people assume people of certain age is married because statistically speaking most of those people will be married? Since when asking that became a judgment and not a way to make conversation?

    My reply:

    Yes it is true, that most people by a certain age will be married. Merely asking is making conversation, but it can become a matter of judgment, depending on the response! Is it a matter-of-fact recognition or is it something else? That is why I mentioned, “the eyebrows raised.”

    That is where the inappropriate shaming comes in.

  • Candide

    I don’t get it. Those single women are all fabulous, quirky and full of life. There’s no problem, right?

    Female herd mentality at work: Kate Bollick wrote a shitty article and all the spinsters jumped on board the bandwagon to celebrate their unique selves.

  • Mike M.

    Several posters have referred to single female engineers. A scarce commodity. Very scarce, as they operate in a target-rich environment.

    The problem is getting other women to realize what a catch an engineer is.

  • Tony Stark

    @ Susan

    “I do not wish Kate Bolick’s life for anyone who wishes to marry. I’m simply saying that giving what has already happened, and the very real possibility that she may not find a life partner, I don’t begrudge her the positivity she’s deploying in trying to plan out the remainder of her life as a single woman.”

    Understood, but I think this misses a crucial point. If more marriage is the goal, it’s not enough for women to “wish to marry.” They must wish to marry the men available to them, an increasingly unattractive pool based on rates of educational attainment and resultant earning capacity. As such, the best way to encourage more women to desire marriage is a combination of a) shaming singles, and b) convincing young women that marriage to a blue collar beta, while imperfect, will yield greater long-term happiness than permanent singledom.

    Normalizing “friend families” as an alternative to marriage invites young women to indulge in that all too familiar hamster-fueled refrain: “Well, I’d like to get married, but I owe it to myself not to settle. Therefore, I’ll just stay single and fabulous until Mr. Right comes along.” As the number of Mr. Rights dwindles, such attitude, if too widespread, guarantees the complete breakdown of marriage as a social institution. As a strong proponent of marriage and its benefits (a stance with which I agree), you’d be wise to zealously oppose this line of thinking.

    I understand your reluctance to be too harsh with Bolick. But it’s important to call a spade a spade. She’s not 39 and single because of complex social forces over which she has no control. She’s 39 and single BECAUSE SHE CHOOSES TO BE 39 AND SINGLE. She’s a smart, attractive woman who could be married tomorrow if that were her desire. If she chooses not to marry, she deserves whatever unhappiness such choice inevitably yields.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tony Stark

      She’s 39 and single BECAUSE SHE CHOOSES TO BE 39 AND SINGLE. She’s a smart, attractive woman who could be married tomorrow if that were her desire. If she chooses not to marry, she deserves whatever unhappiness such choice inevitably yields.

      It’s true. Her last serious relationships were both with men 11 years her junior. They eventually felt the pressure of her ticking bio clock and bailed. She has made some very risky bets.

  • Candide

    @ Anna, regarding the new trend of young women calling their BFFs “wifey”

    The single girls in my social circle do this a lot! Pretty lame, really. That plus the endless Facebook-whoring on what a “fabulous” time they’ve had on their recent GNOs. Apparently a good time is not really a good time unless everyone knows – whether they want to or not – you’ve had a good time.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com Flavia

    Work sucks.

    If you have followed inflation trends properly, then you would ascertain that it was inflation, not feminism that drove women into the marketplace. Feminism just took the credit. Women work because they have to, not because they want to feel “empowered” or “sassy” or whatever platitude is being thrown out these days.

    This Bolick lady is encouraging women to give up finding a potential lifetime of happiness in order to file more papers, answer more phones, or go into more meetings where they talk about “synergy” and you want to jump out of the window. I despise privileged women who dupe the lower classes into a less rewarding life in order to justify their own bad choices. It’s quite immoral.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com Flavia

    @Candide

    LOL. I get a lot of “Sangria with my bestie. I LOVE MY LIFE!!!” updates and it makes me wonder who they are trying to convince.

    I always imagine them screaming it at the top of their lungs while their laughter slowly turns into crying.

  • Rum

    This story is yet more evidence for how much more women need a sense of group approval if not “permission” to act in certain ways than men. Single men who have chosen that state and are enjoying it have not been seen to write articles about how their situation should be celebrated or admired: they just enjoy it.
    I understand that Bolick makes her living by writing stuff to sell to women readers and we all do what we have to do to get by. But why are so many women buying what she is selling? Why do they need it so much?
    Susan, you mentioned that a focused single woman will one day perhaps be elected President. Why is the career of M. Thatcher so invisible to the feminist inspired world? She was among the most influential British PMs of the last century. She bent the course of history the way she wanted more than most male politicians ever do. She also liked men and by all accounts like being attractive to them. And she had kids. For some reason, the example she created does not count in the Gynosphere.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      This story is yet more evidence for how much more women need a sense of group approval if not “permission” to act in certain ways than men. Single men who have chosen that state and are enjoying it have not been seen to write articles about how their situation should be celebrated or admired: they just enjoy it.

      While I do think there’s a large element of “sisterhood” at play here, it’s also true that traditionally a man who does not wish to marry is viewed differently than a woman who did not have the opportunity to marry. It reflects commitment as something that men bestow.

      Susan, you mentioned that a focused single woman will one day perhaps be elected President. Why is the career of M. Thatcher so invisible to the feminist inspired world?

      Or Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi, Benazir Bhutto, Corazon Aquino. Personally, I don’t think a qualified woman has run for President in the U.S., I don’t think it has anything to do with sexism.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    The single girls in my social circle do this a lot! Pretty lame, really. That plus the endless Facebook-whoring on what a “fabulous” time they’ve had on their recent GNOs. Apparently a good time is not really a good time unless everyone knows – whether they want to or not – you’ve had a good time.

    If they ever do a Fight Club sequel this should be Tyler Durdan’s new targets. Destroying facebook with a great monologue about how artificial happiness has replaced real happiness with updated status of nonexistent fabulous lives.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com Flavia

    @rum
    “But why are so many women buying what she is selling? ”

    Because they also want to justify bad choices that led them to sucky unfulfilled lonely lives.

    Wooohooo! Love my life! Martinis with the girls! <3

  • Mule Chewing Briars

    Work sucks unless you’re on top. Like one of my vice presidents said once: “I don’t suffer from stress. I cause it.” If you’re lucky enough to get a gig writing about elite sex for an elite magazine read primarily by elite readers, who are so behind the curve that they think that something that has been discussed in the back rooms of the Internet for a decade is “fresh” and “groundbreaking”, hell, you can fart and someone will think it’s ‘The Star Spangled Banner’ and they’ll salute.

    Kate Bolick is exactly who feminism was crafted to benefit; elite, articulate, well-educated women.

    PS – Kate Bolick missed her calling. Her article read like she wanted to submit it to Architectural Digest. She had your house code-worded for race and class before she even got around to explaining what she did with you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mule

      She had your house code-worded for race and class before she even got around to explaining what she did with you.

      Yeah, I was offended by that. I fought it with the fact checker. For one thing, it was just wrong. There is no hedge, the dining room is not wood-panelled. I was surprised those details made it in after I specifically refuted them. It happened with some other stuff too. I learned in this process that the fact-checking is a negotiation.

  • Iggles

    @ Anacaona:

    If they ever do a Fight Club sequel this should be Tyler Durdan’s new targets. Destroying facebook with a great monologue about how artificial happiness has replaced real happiness with updated status of nonexistent fabulous lives.

    Now that I would love to see! ;-)

  • Rum

    M. Chewing Bars
    The thing is, no one is always on top. Even the President of the US can be fired. Ordinary corporate VPs have their own yearly performance reviews.
    The ultimate W. Street Firm of Goldman Sachs regularly demotes under-performing Partners to associates. Regularly.
    “It is hard to make it to the Top if you want to rock and roll.”

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Hey guys any of you know how to erase a post in the forums?

  • Anon

    Speaking of Tyler Durden, y’all would be wise to pay closer attention to the state of the economy when reflecting on relationship trends of the future. We’ll see how unwilling to settle the “independent” cupcakes of future decades will be when (not if) the US defaults on its debt, the dollar collapses, and the “fabulous” western way of life comes crashing down (taking all worthless “higher education” degrees and no-value-added jobs with it) like the flimsy house of cards that it is.

    Gender issues is a topic that brings a lot of passionate responses out of a lot of people (myself included), but in the end, boring old economics (with technology coming a close second) will play the biggest role, as always. People don’t change until they start getting hungry.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anon

      Gender issues is a topic that brings a lot of passionate responses out of a lot of people (myself included), but in the end, boring old economics (with technology coming a close second) will play the biggest role, as always.

      Agreed. And I would just add that technology and the economy are becoming ever more intricately linked.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Flavia
    I get a lot of “Sangria with my bestie. I LOVE MY LIFE!!!” updates and it makes me wonder who they are trying to convince.

    The first and last time any of my friends did an “I Love My Life” chant (yes, a chant) was when her father was forcing her to finish Law school. She did it to remind herself that she had a really good life compared to the rest of the world and at least her father wasn’t forcing her into prostitution.

    Since then, she has graduated, passed the Bar exam, and found a job in a completely different field. She likes her life a lot better these days.

  • Alphabeta Supe

    Quoting Susan quoting Bolick:

    “What my mother could envision was a future in which I made my own choices. I don’t think either of us could have predicted what happens when you multiply that sense of agency by an entire generation.”

    This quote sums up the feminist problem as far as I’m concerned. more specifically, it describes the precise nature of feminisms fatal flaw. Men routinely do what Bolick and her mother were utterly incapable of doing: predicting the consequences of their personal actions.

    Call it sexist if you like but an incoherent civilisation is exactly what happens when women are given too much freedom and choice. They behave like sheep without a sheepdog; either scattering and dying of loneliness or tumbling over the precipice together. This tendency in women is self-evident to men as a class…why is it such a surprise to women when it proves true time and again, ad nauseum?

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Rum,

    “This story is yet more evidence for how much more women need a sense of group approval if not “permission” to act in certain ways than men. ”

    Yes indeed. I keep wanting to go more deeply into this phenomena but no one seems to think it worthy of much discussion.

    “Why is the career of M. Thatcher so invisible to the feminist inspired world?”

    There’s a few different reasons, one because she was serving an extremely right wing agenda rather than left wing feminism, so I think she was something of an embarrassment to the feminists, that a woman who got into such a position of power could behave in that way, especially while people at the time were still saying (with straight faces) ‘if women ruled the world there’d be no war’.

    It’s also because Thatcher was hated – truly hated – to such a degree in the 1980s its actually hard, if not impossible, to express to people who weren’t there what it was like. There’s a song about her at the time that went “the hate that she inspired/had to be seen to be believed”, & that is so true. The closest thing America has is, I guess, Nixon, but at the time she was more regularly compared to Hitler, & that actually wasn’t hyperbole in this instance. I’m old enough to remember her being in power when I was a child, & most of my friends of a similar age have vowed to literally piss on her grave when she dies. In a more hot-blooded country I’m sure the people would unearth her body & put her head on a spike as a warning to future dictators. The recent ‘Iron Lady’ biopic is an atrocious whitewash which gives no clue to how genuinely scary & evil she was seen to be at the time by practically everyone I’ve ever met.

    A better reading of the mood of the times, of the way people actually thought about her, & talked about her, can be found here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-BZIWSI5UQ

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    @ Flavia @ 116 and 117,

    +1

  • Stargirl

    I am curious to see how my generation will turn out, whether we will try to go back to marriage or whether divorce rates and the number of single people increases. I think it’s a matter of figuring out priorities and keeping expectations in check. I have always wanted to be with someone. This isn’t the same as needing to be with someone. I just know I want to spend my life with one person (and have friends as well of course). Someone to travel with, someone to cook with, someone to raise children with, someone to go to the movies and theatre and symphony with, someone to read in coffeeshops with, someone who will be there first thing in the morning and last thing at night, someone who I can talk to anytime about anything. And sometimes, it’s not about FINDING someone who already does these things, but it’s about working together to create moments like these.

    Stories such as Bolick’s have caused me to reflect on my priorities. I am sure she is happy with her life and I’m sure many single women are, but I know that’s not what I’m looking for. I remained single throughout most of university (after a 3 year high school/university relationship) and met my current boyfriend during my last semester of university while studying abroad. I didn’t think we were going to work out initially because I didn’t feel the same level of interest that he did. But I thought more rationally and realized his best qualities included honesty, kindness, intelligence, stability, etc. Over time, I’ve come to value him more and more and now he is my best friend and I love him. In the long term, I assume that these qualities can provide the foundation for a strong, lasting relationship. For me, going through life together with someone is more important than doing it alone and finding myself at the age 80 looking back at my career accomplishments with no special person to share it with. So at the age of 23, while many of my friends are enjoying their single lives, I’ve decided that I’ve stopped ‘looking for someone better’ and will work on making this the best.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stargirl

      I congratulate you on your maturity and insight. I’m glad you grew to love such a good man. At 23, you’re better positioned to avoid Single By Default than most women.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    @Susan

    I’ve heard that Kate B has gotten a bunch of marriage proposals. I’m sure most of them are from strangers on the internet, but I imagine that Lori Gottleib got zero proposals after writing Marry Him. I can’t imagine this tactic would work for the average woman though – can you?

    Actually, I wouldn’t be too surprised if this did work for the average woman. It’s the non-purient version of the old saw that any woman can get laid by just going to a bar, getting up on a table and making an announcement. Women refuse to believe it; men always buy it.

    What happens next is more telling. My imagination says that Kate B. et. al. assume that most of the proposals are bogus and the rest come from objectionable people. That may or may not be true, but I have a hard time seeing any difference that way between that scenario and the results of Kate B.’s preferred fantasy proposal scenario. The men still propose, she still disposes.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Byron….my perception is that one major reason Margaret Thatcher (the “grocer’s daughter”) was so hated by many was **class prejudice**, plain and simple.

    I’m not seeing much resemblance to Nixon, who was far from a classic free-marketer in his beliefs (viz wage and price controls).

  • deti

    Stargirl gets it.

    HUS: Winning them over, one girl at a time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      HUS: Winning them over, one girl at a time.

      That put a big smile on my face, thank you.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Susan
    Or Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi, Benazir Bhutto, Corazon Aquino. Personally, I don’t think a qualified woman has run for President in the U.S., I don’t think it has anything to do with sexism.

    Well, Corazon Aquino wasn’t qualified, either. She was a housewife who ran for president in a snap election after her senator husband was assassinated, presumably by the incumbent president. The assassination was the last straw for many voters. Few people cared whether she could do the job or not; they just wanted to see her predecessor out and to know that their votes counted for something again.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    @JT

    Thank you. Serfdom and materialism has been marketed as empowerment and freedom. It really is incredible what people will believe.

    —–

    Reflecting upon it, especially now that some people have brought up Sex and the City, I do think that many women seriously do not want a husband and especially children. Being a good wife and especially a good mother is hard work and our society is not based on instant gratification, entitlement, and narcissism. I do think that many men and women are too selfish for such endeavors….the problem is that biology trumps even a decaying society’s message and these women will eventually rue the day they chose Prada over pampers. But of course it always happens when it is too late.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    David,

    “my perception is that one major reason Margaret Thatcher (the “grocer’s daughter”) was so hated by many was **class prejudice**, plain and simple.”

    What do you mean?

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster
  • Jonny

    “I do not wish Kate Bolick’s life for anyone who wishes to marry. I’m simply saying that giving what has already happened, and the very real possibility that she may not find a life partner”

    For a middle aged woman, her life is largely spent. There is no life partner anymore.

    A man’s life expectancy is 75.6 years. A woman’s life expentancy is 80.8. A woman is expected to outlast a man. Statistically, her marriage will be less than half her life if it lasts even that long. Marriages are doomed with women being the flakes.

    The best thing you can get out of a marriage is kids. Without this child-parent bond, a marriage is just advanced dating. Its Legal Cohabitation.

    For many single people, its a lie to suggest your life has meaning from your job or accomplishments. Most people are not so talented that they leave a mark on society. The best thing most people can or should do is leave the world to the next generation.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    For many single people, its a lie to suggest your life has meaning from your job or accomplishments. Most people are not so talented that they leave a mark on society.

    I always like family/relationship oriented people more. However, I think this is wrong. I find a great deal of personal fulfillment in my writing–and this was true before I achieved even an ounce of success with it.

    This reminds me of something Joseph Campbell said (I know, I keep quoting the mofo… but he was a genius). “People think we’re all searching for the meaning of life, but I don’t think that’s what we’re really seeking. I think what we’re really seeking is the experience of being alive.”

    Life is essentially meaningless. You can pass your genes to the next generation and they, in turn, can pass it down further, but eventually the planet’s going to grow cold, and, somewhere down the line, the sun is going to implode… or explode… or maybe just burn out like a candle at the end of it’s wick. And when that happens, the universe isn’t going to remember any of this. And the universe is going to keep on not remembering any of this until it expands to it’s fullest extent and starts contracting and eventually… idk, disappears? Whatever the case, it’s all meaningless.

    But people can experience life in a myriad of ways. And while some of them may not be to our liking, it doesn’t make it any less valid for them as individuals.

  • Someguy

    “Susan, you mentioned that a focused single woman will one day perhaps be elected President. Why is the career of M. Thatcher so invisible to the feminist inspired world?”

    “Or Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi, Benazir Bhutto, Corazon Aquino. Personally, I don’t think a qualified woman has run for President in the U.S., I don’t think it has anything to do with sexism.”

    Ellen Sirleaf-Johnson and Michelle Bachelet made it to the top without succession-line family connections. Bhutto was the daughter of Zulfikar Bhutto and terribly corrupt. Gandhi was Nehru’s daughter.

    I think that Thatcher gets no love from feminists simply because she was so unapologetically right-wing.

  • Jonny

    @Jesus “Life is essentially meaningless. You can pass your genes to the next generation and they, in turn, can pass it down further, but eventually the planet’s going to grow cold, and, somewhere down the line, the sun is going to implode… ”

    I’m not trying to advance the evolutionary aspect. The best contribution to a society is one where the people are productive and reproductive. The society functions best where the people are not self-involved, narcistic, and single.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jonny,

    That’s cool. I agree for the most part. But I do think that there are many ways of contributing to society beyond having a family.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    David,

    No, that’s just silly. The upper & middle classes are a minority in Britain, & besides that, they were her biggest supporters. It was the ordinary people who hated her, & who her policies hurt the most: In her time in office she effectively destroyed British industry forever, viciously declared open war on the trade unions, breaking apart whole communities that depended on them & replaced them with a particularly nasty free-market capitalism. After her first term in office, unemployment was higher than any time since the 1930′s: everyone was on the dole, & the only people that benefited from her rule were the newly emerging (& much reviled) yuppies. It was under her leadership that the Poll Tax (a tax on just being born, basically) was introduced, thankfully unsuccessfully, at least in the form she intended. Under her, CCTV cameras were placed on the corner of every street & Britain became the most spied upon country in the world. Immediately after she stepped down the Conservatives introduced the Criminal Justice Act, which criminalized huge sections of society, in particular gypsies, travellers, immigrants, homosexuals, & protest of any sort.

    Margaret Thatcher preached hatred & intolerance of anyone different to or poorer than her & privatized everything that wasn’t nailed down. That fluff-piece article was just another whitewashing that is being put out because they know she’s going to die soon.

    On the other hand (if there is one), I’ve come to realize she was a particularly strong leader, and did all she did as well as any man, quite probably. It’s just what she did was completely abhorrent, utterly against the interest of almost everyone she was supposed to be working on behalf of, & in her term of office brought my country closer to a genuinely fascist state than it has ever been before.

  • Ramble

    When you can’t even pull those guys anymore, it’s just you and the girls and the shoes.
    I’m just realizing how many friends I have like this and how many I know of.

    You apparently have a lot of friends over 35 for a 21 year old girl.

  • J

    Jackie–

    Congratulations on winning those scholarships! Very impressive!!

    I used to feel like your ex-fiance did. My DH, who worked his way through school, felt otherwise. As I have had the opportunity to see how being in affluence with no challenges affects kids, I have become more interested in having my kids learn how to meet challenges than in having them learn curriculum. I’ve seen a lot of friends kids go off to college, drift around, party and generally act stupid. The kids have a tremendous sense of entitlement and ultimately come crashing down when they come face to face with the realization that no one really cares about them or thinks that are as great as their parents lead them to believe. I pity kids whose parents don’t teach them to take care of themselves.

  • J

    I’m not saying there aren’t some rare exceptions among women out there who really don’t want and children and really do not want to spend their lives with someone,

    Yeah, it happens but it’s odd. Every once in a blue moon, I’ll meet someone who really is asocial and much happier alone . More often it’s a man, not a woman, but there are rare people who seem to be just wired that way.

  • jack

    This is just additional hamster-wheel rationalizing.

    Proud and defiant on the outside, crying on the inside.

    Be certain that when a group of women need to “celebrate” something, it is because they desperately wish it was worth celebrating.

    If singleness was soo effing groovy, there would be no need for being such demonstrative behavior.

    Methinks the hamster doth spin too fast.

    When this stupid fad fails to be a balm to all their lonely hearts, we will eventually see the faces of total defeat and humiliation.

    Consider this the “bargaining” stage.

  • J

    Since then, she has graduated, passed the Bar exam, and found a job in a completely different field. She likes her life a lot better these days.

    there are worse thinggs that can happen to you than having a law degree and not practicing law. I know several people in that circumstance; the degree stil opens doors for you.

    Ask Doug1. ;-0

    But seriously, I know people who work in the finance industry, banking, non-profits, and other places who have law degrees. At one point, my DH was thinking about law school as credential for the highest level of management in his corporation. He has no intentiion of every practising law.

  • deti

    Jonny:

    “For many single people, its a lie to suggest your life has meaning from your job or accomplishments. Most people are not so talented that they leave a mark on society. ”

    I saw your point. Most people who work will never make any real impact in their professions. Their accomplishments, no matter how sterling, will mean nothing 20 minutes after the last shovel of dirt is thrown onto their graves. One whose fulfillment is personal is just that — it is personal to him or her. While it certainly has meaning to him or her, it will likely have no lasting meaning beyond his or her own life.

    I had a dear cousin who claimed a great life as an academic and college professor. She married when she was 40 to someone she claimed was a great and accomplished historian. In truth she only married him because he was in the US on a work visa that expired. She stayed married to him out of a sense of obligation. She didn’t really love him, nor he her. She wasn’t really a distinguished academic either. She was a part time lecturer at a community college, as was her husband. They weren’t tenured or published. They were teachers–plain and simple. That is not to denigrate their work or their professions; but it is to state that they felt a need to puff themselves up and misrepresent the true nature of their work.

    About 20 years ago my cousin died a widow, destitute and alone. She had to move back to her childhood home in the Midwest (which she hated) because she could not afford to stay on the east coast where she loved hobnobbing with the wine, cheese and brie crowds. She had no children to care for her. She had only a few extended family. She left no legacy, no body of scholarly work, no property other than a few books, no offspring, nothing of lasting value other than a few memories which will end with my death.

    This is where Bolick and her sisters miss the mark. Bolick’s writings will live on and perhaps someday they will mean something to some obscure historian studying the wreckage of this SMP. But most never married women like the hypothetical overworked social worker, the harried junior high school teacher, the underpaid, underappreciated legal secretary or the cougar lawyer, will truly lead lives which, in the end, will signify very little to them, whatever families they had, or their societies.

  • deti

    Captain Capitalism has an interesting take on Bolick and this piece here.

    http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2012/02/mgtow-vs-wgtow.html

  • J

    I got the distinct impression that Bolick’s article was a web of rationalization. She is not really happy, did not want this to happen, and now need to build an edifice to convince herself that everything is great.

    I don’t think she’s trying to build an edifice to convince herself that everything is great. I think she knows exactly what is going on, knows that half of her life is still ahead of her and wants to make that part of her life happy and meaningful. I have a few friends like that–though they were wallflowers, not glamor girls, in their salad days. The big question for them is “Now what?” Do they stand around watching their friends send kids off to college or plan kid’s weddings or do they try to enjoy life? The healthy ones make an effort to enjoy what they can. I’d do the same if I were in that position.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    For many single people, its a lie to suggest your life has meaning from your job or accomplishments. Most people are not so talented that they leave a mark on society. The best thing most people can or should do is leave the world to the next generation.

    The career fantasy is indeed a terrible thing to sell. They have this expectations of awards, recognition, lots of money, travels and a partnership in X number of years. But then few people actually can pull all that off anyway. I’m not saying that family is the solution but at the very least there is always satisfaction unless you are the type that needs people of power to praise you to feel successful. I had never felt more flattered that when a young girl told me that loved my book and feel in love with my characters (or the other way around when one of my villains was pulling a nice trick and she actually though it was good I broke her heart, I apologized of course but it was still good to know that I managed to make her so sneaky) not even after I won my literary award so at the very least I will feel a failure if all I had was my award and no one that actually LOVED what I did.
    I do wonder if another important thing to teach is to recognize your personal love language if you will feel really successful if you have the career even if you don’t marry or marry older or have no children. I’m getting the feeling that many women follow the herd and is not till they are too old and late they realize they actually are not happy with what the herd told them they will be.

  • J

    For one thing, it was just wrong. There is no hedge, the dining room is not wood-panelled. I was surprised those details made it in after I specifically refuted them. It happened with some other stuff too. I learned in this process that the fact-checking is a negotiation.

    I’m astounded by this. I’ve been involved in situations that were misreported due to incompetence/inexperience, but I’ve always been able to get a retraction/corection printed. That’s just stupid and dishonest.

    OTOH, I was having house envy, so now I feel better knowing that there is no hedge or wood paneling. ;-)

    I have paneling in my dining room and den, but I live in a mid-century executive ranch. I would have loved a Victorian, but I suspect the upkeep on a ranch is easier.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I would have loved a Victorian, but I suspect the upkeep on a ranch is easier.

      Yeah, be thankful. Our roof leaks, the house is drafty. My husband and I have always been partial to this scene, from It’s a Wonderful Life:

      “It’s this old house. I don’t know why we don’t all have pneumonia. Drafty old barn of a place. It’s like growing up living in a refrigerator. Why do we have to live here in the first place, and stay around this measly, crummy old town?”
      - “George, what’s wrong?”
      - “Wrong? Everything. Why, you call this a happy family? Why do we have to have all these kids?”

      My next house is going to be all on one level. Let’s trade :)

  • Ramble

    I get a lot of resistance, mostly from women, when I say that I favor slut shaming. But that’s an aspect of female intrasexual competition we could use a lot more of.

    Susan, I had said quite a few times in the past as to how important slut shaming was and you had, previously, said that you would not do it. That, IIRC, you were OK with it in concept, but that you would not do it yourself. Have you since changed your opinion?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Whenever I support slut shaming, the negative responses are just about 100%. Women absolutely do not have the stomach for it. So mostly I don’t think it will work.

      I do know some slutty women, and I love them, but of course they know very well I don’t approve. Don’t forget – my reservations are not moral. I think promiscuity, from either sex, is bad all around.

  • Anna

    @ Ramble
    I do know a lot of older people, but the lifestyle I described is common for girls closer to my age as well. It’s just that it’s not really a big problem to lead that SATC-lifestyle at my age (provided you don’t have loads of unprotected sex). I think 27 is already an age where it begins to become a problem though. I think you should have some savings and have made some investments at that age.

  • animalcule

    I’m not one for joining ‘movements’, but I’m surprised so many here think a woman living most of her life unmarried/uncoupled is such a bad or sad thing.

    I’m in my mid-20s and just ended a 7-year-long relationship with a man I love very much, who would have liked to stay with me forever. In large part, I chose to do so because I have doubts that a serious romantic relationship is something that is going to be more satisfying to me long term, than having my freedom is. I have nothing against relationships (I’m not the casual sex/dating sort anyway), but meshing my life and identity almost entirely with another person (ie marriage) is something else. I can certainly relate to where these women are coming from.

    I don’t have a career and I certainly don’t plan to drink my life away with ‘my girls’. All but one of my close friends are in serious LTRs, some with kids, at this point, anyway – our time together is spent with me at their house cooking and playing with their dogs and babies. It’s wonderful to experience their domesticity but it’s very nice to go home and relish the solitude of my bedroom…

    I know I’m a bit weird but I don’t even understand what it’s like to feel ‘lonely’. I feel better than I have in a very long time, these past few months I’ve been living alone and boyfriend-less… it’s so peaceful.

  • animalcule

    Additionally, I think some commentators are missing the fact that the desire to ‘leave a mark on society’ is a masculine trait (though certainly shared by many women, especially careerist women).

    I have zero drive to do meaningful or important things; I just want to live my life as I please, in a way which will give me the most contentment. Many women I know are the same. I’d even say that most of us have children not because we feel it gives our lives meaning and importance, but because a]it’s the normal thing people do and b]we get baby fever, which is totally illogical/biological.

  • http://jabootu.net/?p=4714 Pip

    Deti and others,

    I disagree. I’m just into my 30s, am and will remain unmarried, and will also remain childfree. I define myself mainly by my work (DVM), my interests outside of that (piano, running, riding), my friends/family, and my religion.

    “She left no legacy, no body of scholarly work, no property other than a few books, no offspring, nothing of lasting value other than a few memories which will end with my death.”

    Effectively, outside of the ‘no property’ thing, the same will be said about me. And probably you. And nearly all of us, wedded or not, childed or not, within 50 years of our deaths. Or 100 years. Whatever. I’m continually amused by those who think it matters to history that they “left a legacy” or some such by having kids.

    Who will take care of me when I’m old? My present self, through my work and assets, and my future self, through my preserverance and faith. Many of the people who think their children are going to take care of them are in for a rude surprise.

    And this dying alone stuff? My step-dad’s first wife was rushed to the hospital for heart palpitations by her neighbors when my step-dad was out of town. She died overnight from a myocardial infarction before any relative could get to her.

    My grandmother had a heart attack at night in a hospital. My
    grandfather a final stoke. My other grandmother was found dead in her home. Her husband died years before.

    They all died alone, despite having many children.

    Die alone? You probably will anyway.

    I’m a WGHOW, partnered with a MGHOW. It works for some. As long as you’re honest with yourself.

  • J

    On all this “no children to care for you” stuff:

    I cared for both of my aged parents for approximately 18 years. I’m glad I did it and would feel horribly guilty had I not. OTOH, I really would not want my sons to have to do the same. Although it did teach my sons some valuable lessons about compassion, it was a tremendous drain on me and my family. Balance the needs of two very elderly people with the needs of young children was exhausting.

    I don’t look forward to my sons “taking care of me,” and I hope to be self-sufficient as long as I can be.

  • Jonny

    I see raising my own kid as the greatest accomplishment aside from just about everything else. My career isn’t distinguished although I make a good living and have two degrees. Despite the diploma, I don’t retain much else. The job is great. I love my monthly income, but it really is a job, not a career.

    I see this as an issue of what do you find meaningful in this world. I think “Pip” is an exception to the rule of remaining single. Many women do choose to not marry and have children. The majority in this situation keep the hope alive despite all the choices that show that they really don’t want marriage. I suppose it comes down to an intentional choice, an inadventent choice, or unconscience choice to remain unmarried and childless.

    As for legacy, I find these issues to be a side show. The emphasis is whether you find “more meaning” from being married with kids or not. The raising of kids is satisfying and I also derive satisfaction from leaving something. The legacy isn’t myself, but the next generation.

    I really don’t mind dying alone. The difference is whether you can call up someone to help you, whereas a childless person has fewer options. Many people do die unexpectedly so I think the issue of dying alone to be unimportant; however, a visit from family while you’re in a convalecsent home might ease things a bit. Families are helpful in the transition when you age. Of course, I do see a distinction when kids don’t want to help when compared with childless seniors all by themselves. It is a choice that people make for themselves or a choice that others make for you.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I don’t think anyone should look at having children from a selfish perspective, like “What will my children do for me?” or “I won’t be alone when I die!” It’s very hard work to raise kids, with sleep deprivation and stress. Nobody should go into it with pure idealism. Instead be realistic and know it will be a lot of work.

  • anonymous

    deti:
    “The problem is that Bolick and her situation are a rarity. Only the most prestigious, beautiful, and financially successful 40 YO single women can live a life like Bolick. She will have opportunities that the vast majority of single women will never have. For most women, it is a life of work and drudgery. ”

    Yes, it’s a mistake for the masses to emulate the apex.
    The funny thing is that I know quite a number of single unmarried/childless people of both genders (more than a dozen) who are now in their mid-late 40s, and they ALL have master degrees/phds, own their own homes, are doing well financially.
    Everyone I know on the lower rungs of the social ladder marry/pair up/have kids in their teens/20s.

    Now, I don’t know if this “singleness” is going to trickle down the ladder, it’s possible, but I’m doubtful it will happen for quite a while if it does.
    In my experience so far, the upper-middle class is living in a bubble. There are either stable marriages or singleness w/o children. The middle-middle is following the trends of the lower classes, not the upper. I’m not sure if these 2 camps will ever meet, there seems be a definitive line in place. Who knows eventually. ?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @anonymous

      The funny thing is that I know quite a number of single unmarried/childless people of both genders (more than a dozen) who are now in their mid-late 40s, and they ALL have master degrees/phds, own their own homes, are doing well financially.

      Are they satisfied emotionally as well? And do you see a difference between women and men?

  • lovelost

    @Susan
    http://blog.identified.com/2012/01/new-identified-research-reveals-engineers-far-more-likely-than-mbas-to-build-and-run-companies.html

    You might want to start using this link from here onwards. I recollect you mention Beta STEM guys are the future to the economy. this study says it all for you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lovelost

      You have anticipated my next move! I’m working on a post about education, and I planned to reference that study. Thanks so much!

  • Ramble

    Whenever I support slut shaming, the negative responses are just about 100%.

    Yup, guys love sluts and girls (many, at least) want to have the option available without anyone getting all ‘judgy’.

    Women absolutely do not have the stomach for it. So mostly I don’t think it will work.

    Susan, there is a reason why they do not have the stomach for it.

    There is a reason why girls have different reactions to different judgements:
    – You are a coward.
    – You are weak. You can’t even do one pull-up.
    – You are fat.
    – You are a whore.

    Some of these sting more than others.

    They don’t have the stomach for the slut shaming because it DOES work.

    Granted, if you are/were just one lonely voice in the wilderness, then, yeah, it would have little effect. Lucky for you, you have one of the most popular blogs regarding our modern SMP.

  • anonymous

    To clarify from comment #169
    “Now, I don’t know if this “singleness” is going to trickle down the ladder”

    I meant
    I don’t know if this *brand* of singleness will trickle down the ladder.
    I do know people who are single parents/never married in the lower-middle class. But all of the Kate Bolick variety of singles that I know are educated, from the top 20% income bracket.

  • J

    My dream house was a Victorian; DH’s was the executive ranch. His uncle lived in one while DH was a kid on welfare. It symbolized the “good life” to him. He wanted this house so badly, I didn’t have the heart to push for the Victorian. Maintainance was indeed brought up by DH though as a plus for this house as a negative on a Victorian.

    I appreciate the offer of a trade, but I think my next house will be a downtown condo. (Close to restaurants and shops, as I try to sell my husband.) Who wants to deal with a house in their 60s or 70s?

    I love “It’s a Wonderful Life.” Sometimes, DH and I call each other “old Building and Loan pals,” which is waht George calls Uncle Billy.

  • http://flavors.me/marktrueblood Mark Trueblood

    Hope- “I don’t think anyone should look at having children from a selfish perspective, like “What will my children do for me?” or “I won’t be alone when I die!” ”

    Yes.

    Children are not replicators of their parent’s DNA, or copies of personality, or utilities that can be switched on when needed. And there are about a zillion ways to make a positive contribution to the world other than having children. Even the Bible praises single people who make contributions in other ways. (for those who care about such things as the Bible.)

    On top of that, having children is an extremely risky decision for a man, given the child custody laws in the US and the West. Again, I’d love to see traditionalists and social conservatives pour even half as much energy into changing these laws as they do pointing fingers at teh gays and teh menz. (And yes, I know not all traditionalists are like that.)

  • Anna

    @ Ramble
    I haven’t really read ALL of HUS, I don’t know how “slut” is defined here by Susan. Some say women whose partners counts are over a certain numbers or don’t use protection are sluts, some say a girl is a slut if she’s ever participated in casual sex.
    The thing is guys can call girls sluts if they reject them, girls call other girls sluts when jealous.
    I think even the girls who give negative comments to slut shaming, are not so open-minded they have NEVER labeled another girl a slut. But people’s definitions are different. And I too find it a bit ridiculous if a woman with 1-2 partners who’s never had an ONS or even an FWB creates the rules of how everything’s supposed to be.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    lovelost….Betas STEM guys, MBAs, etc.

    Not sure you can assume that holding an engineering degree, even an advanced one, automatically makes one Beta. As one data point GE CEO Jeff Immelt, got his undergrad degree in Applied Mathematics from Dartmouth. Doubt that Immelt is all that Beta….pretty sure his predecessor Jack Welch (PhD in Chemical Engineering, U-Illinois) would be considered Beta by very few.

    OTOH, there are quite a few MBAs who **could** be considered pretty Beta.

    Basically, I think the distinction between STEM people and non-STEM people tends to be a bit overdrawn. They’re not entirely separate species from one another.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Basically, I think the distinction between STEM people and non-STEM people tends to be a bit overdrawn. They’re not entirely separate species from one another.

      Agreed. In fact, I’d say that the majority of the guys in my b-school class would be considered beta.

  • Ramble

    And this dying alone stuff? My step-dad’s first wife was rushed to the hospital for heart palpitations by her neighbors when my step-dad was out of town. She died overnight from a myocardial infarction before any relative could get to her.

    My grandmother had a heart attack at night in a hospital. My
    grandfather a final stoke. My other grandmother was found dead in her home. Her husband died years before.

    Pip, that is absolutely not the point of “dying alone”. I can’t speak to any “legacy” stuff, but, IME, those that were dying and left behind a healthy family did so with much more ease than those that were “alone”.

  • Ramble

    The thing is guys can call girls sluts if they reject them, girls call other girls sluts when jealous.

    In my experience, when a guy calls a girl a slut, it does not “stick” that much. Especially if it came from a rejection (Sour Grapes and all that). Actually, almost all effective slut shaming has been born by females, from what I have seen. And, considering how evil some teenagers can get with that stuff, it can be important for the adult women to set the standard instead of leaving it to the young girls. But, that is, currently, not that realistic.

    And I too find it a bit ridiculous if a woman with 1-2 partners who’s never had an ONS or even an FWB creates the rules of how everything’s supposed to be.

    Different girls will have different definitions, and, in its aggregate, different cultures will have different definitions (say, Japan versus France, or Paris versus Gascony). But, in general, if adult women wanted to have an effect on teenage girls, I think they could easily do so. Considering that many of them either,
    1.) Had some fun themselves, or
    2.) Don’t want to be the bad guy

    I don’t think we are going to see much of it anytime soon.

  • anonymous

    Susan : “Whenever I support slut shaming, the negative responses are just about 100%. Women absolutely do not have the stomach for it. So mostly I don’t think it will work.

    I do know some slutty women, and I love them, but of course they know very well I don’t approve. Don’t forget – my reservations are not moral. I think promiscuity, from either sex, is bad all around.”

    Slut-shaming just doesn’t work under the current climate.
    Sluts are being rewarded with lots of male attention, financially, TV shows/gigs… there are just too many women jumping on board and enough men loving it.
    There’s no religion/no other institution/authority outwardly opposing it, and there aren’t enough people standing firmly against it.

  • anonymous

    Ramble:
    “Actually, almost all effective slut shaming has been born by females, from what I have seen”

    When you say “effective”, do you mean – there’s a change in behavior in the slut or she just get’s hassled and tormented?

  • Ramble

    When you say “effective”, do you mean

    That the girl being shamed seemed effected by the statement, and not simply annoyed.

    But, again, I have seen very few guys (outside of a few crying in their beers) actually do any slut shaming.

    If anything, the guys are more likely to attempt using the word “slut” in a playful way to actually get her to be sluttier.

  • Ramble

    “affected”. not “effected”.

  • Anna

    @ Ramble,
    so guys do not actually call girls sluts? The only way they “shame” the girls, are by not initiating a relationship with them? Which would normally have them change their behavior, if they aware of that being the reason, obviously.

  • deti

    Pip:

    “I define myself mainly by my work (DVM), my interests outside of that (piano, running, riding), my friends/family, and my religion.”

    Proves my point. You’re a doctor of veterinary medicine. You are highly educated and probably well compensated. Certainly you are not living paycheck to paycheck, I would think. You have eclectic interests including music and riding (probably horses). Equestrianism is a sport reserved for the well off. I’d bet you own at least one horse. That ain’t cheap. You have the time for running and keeping yourself in shape. You have been able to do very, very well for yourself.

    You have friends and family. Since you are highly educated, I suspect you move in some social and professional circles that don’t revolve around nights in seedy taverns or Lonely Hearts Club dating services. You even have a MGHOW partner, presumably in a long term relationship.

    You have a really great, full life. None of what I’m about to say is in any way or manner intended to denigrate you or wish you ill.

    The point is, most women will never live the life you do, because they don’t have the drive, the money, the education, the wherewithal or the good fortune.

    You have more than 98% of the women who will see Kate Bolick and conclude — wrongly — that they can be what she is, do what she does and live like she lives.

    The other side of the coin is this:

    A wage slave social worker who works among the most grindingly unfortunate of our society and hates her job but has to stay in it because this is the most she can earn with an MSW.

    An overworked, plain Jane, somewhat overweight and out of shape schoolteacher who has no money for pursuits such as steeplechases or time for running 5Ks.

    A harried, underappreciated legal secretary who has to figure out which bills she can afford to pay this month and who has just been pumped and dumped for the third time this year by yet another man she thought was The One.

    You’re to be congratulated on your good fortune and great life, Pip. Most other never married women have no chance at your life.

  • Ramble

    Oh, like I said before, guys will call girls sluts, sometimes, when rejected. Though, you more often see a guy just not wanting to talk about it all. But, mostly, if that word is coming out of a guys mouth it is usually in jest or as a playful tease. And, more likely to be used on a girl he already knows, as opposed to some girl he might have just met in a bar.

    The only way they “shame” the girls, are by not initiating a relationship with them?

    I didn’t understand this question.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Ramble, Ana

    The only way they “shame” the girls, are by not initiating a relationship with them?

    I didn’t understand this question.

    Yes indifference is what works. Calling them out, judging etc, when it comes from a man, girls filter it through a different lense. AKA they attribute the criticism to something else, the guy being bitter, etc. Plus the guy is giving attention to her, even if its negative, it activates the courtship circuit: she´s evaluating him and not the other way around.

    But indifference… that turns the circuit off. So yes.

  • MuffManMike

    I’m actually in Pip’s (163) camp.

    Perhaps that’s because i’m at a point where i could care less if the earth was scorched by solar flares or hit by a comet. The survival of our race does not concern me, nor the continuation of our species. It’s destined to happen at some point. But feminist society deemed my troubles, my wants and needs unworthy, trite, even ridiculed. I owe this society nothing, this society that left me a long time ago.

    Still Pip has every right to follow her own path as do i for our own reasons. Shouldn’t be seen as ‘lower than’ for making that choice, especially when the alternate choices contain zero appeal.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Still Pip has every right to follow her own path as do i for our own reasons. Shouldn’t be seen as ‘lower than’ for making that choice, especially when the alternate choices contain zero appeal.

      I strongly agree. I have no problem with people going their own way. I’m sure neither you nor Pip is focusing on how greedy married people are – it’s the antagonism that I don’t think is helpful. But that’s the political piece. Everyone should be allowed to find their contentment in life as they see fit.

  • Ramble

    (Yohami) OK, I understand what she was asking now.

    There would be a few exceptions to this, like, say, her friends father calling her a slut in front of other (female) adults. I am betting that would really sting and embarrass her. But, I can’t say I have ever seen anything like that.

    But, I bet even a (male) school principal admonishing some “young lady” for “giving it away” would have little effect on her. She would probably shrug it off to him being old, boring and stodgy.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Ramble,

    Yeah I was going to add that. She´ll listen if she likes you more than she likes herself, if she´s already looking for your approval, etc.

  • anonymous

    Ramble :
    ““affected”. not “effected”.”

    Oh, OK.

  • Jonny

    @Mark Trueblood “On top of that, having children is an extremely risky decision for a man, given the child custody laws in the US and the West. Again, I’d love to see traditionalists and social conservatives pour even half as much energy into changing these laws as they do pointing fingers at teh gays and teh menz. (And yes, I know not all traditionalists are like that.)”

    What you don’t understand is this fight for marriage isn’t merely the traditionalists and social conservatives. Women and liberals are in this fight too.

    The laws are designed to protect women and children at the expense of men. This won’t change if women don’t perceive how the laws went beyond its intent and discouraged men to marry. Women need to insist on the laws to change. This has already happened in Massachusetts with alimony reform (key words: Alimony Reform Act of 2011).

    Certainly, child custody must be changed as well, but usually this is decided by judges. The law usually uses gender neutral language. Custody should be awarded to be the best parent or made joint. Things have changed because most judges award joint custody, but mother have physical custody. I learned recently than many mothers eventually sign over custody to fathers when their children crip the mother’s love life. Child abandonment is done almost equally by mothers and fathers.

    This is a cultural fight. I would love for traditionalists and social conservatives on the right to win it for men, but GIVE ME A BREAK. If you cared about what they have to say, why not give it to them on same sex marriage. The truth is they are losing and taking mens rights with them. Perhaps if lesbians and gays learn more about how family law works, they will seek the reforms that are so much needed.

  • Ramble

    anonymous, I was correcting myself, not you.

  • http://flavors.me/marktrueblood Mark Trueblood

    Jonny-

    I am well-aware that all political ideologies have a perspective on divorce laws and child custody. I am specifically calling out traditionalists and social conservatives, because they have done little else other than sit on their hands and shame men while whole generations of families (inside the church and out) were ripped apart. In fact, their great holy champion Ronald Reagan was the one who signed no-fault divorce into law when he was gov of California. (the first state to do so.)

    Traditionalists and social conservatives have a long record of male-shaming and female pedestalizing on this issue. Dalrock’s blog (among others) have extensively covered that fact.

    I’m saying, if we can’t even get social conservatives to genuinely defend traditional marriage, what hope do we have to convert liberals? In other words, remove stick from eye before pointing out the speck in others.

  • deti

    “I have no problem with people going their own way.”

    The Pips and Kate Bolicks of this world — intelligent, comparably affluent, well-rounded, self-sufficient, educated and self-actualized — will do just fine.

    It’s those who will be misled into the never-married lifestyle, who believe that it is all fabulosity, who concern me.

    It’s those who will make the poor choices that gradually winnow away their own options who concern me.

    It is those never married young women who will see Bolick or read about great women like Pip and believe that their destinies inevitably will involve eclectic hobbies, the perfect dream job, time and money for musical and equestrienne pursuits, being constantly surrounded by good looking, healthy and interesting family and friends, and fielding multiple marriage proposals.

  • anonymous

    Yohami:
    “they attribute the criticism to something else, the guy being bitter”

    Yeah, but when the criticism comes from other women, they attribute it to being jealous. Then, they have the option of hanging out with all of the guys that approve of her behavior and become best buddies with them.
    If you missed her post, Warm Woman was actually shamed by the men in her Indian culture.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    anon

    Yeah, but when the criticism comes from other women, they attribute it to being jealous.

    Ego * must * survive program.

  • anonymous

    Yohami:
    “Ego * must * survive program.”

    ?? Not sure what you mean.

    I actually don’t think that ALL of the slut-shaming from women is due to jealousy as it is just something that women tend to do in groups, which is to police each other. Go to a female forum and you’ll see how much PC and policing goes on. You have to play “nice” in female groups.
    Now, mind you, I’m not saying women are good….. if the female group is full of sluts, then they’ll shame the virgins. So, in a group of good girls or wannabe good girls, they’ll shame the sluts.

    But……
    This is/was only effective when there’s gender separation- the girls hang out with the girls and the boys with the boys.
    In a culture where the genders are constantly side by side and the promiscuous outnumber the chaste, women shaming other women is useless. They’ll just go hang out with the guys or with other sluts (and there’s plenty to accompany them).

  • http://flyfreshandyoung.wordpress.com FFY

    Meh, his “Single By Choice” crowd is no different than the Shaming Fat-Shamers movement.

    Shamers of Fat-Shamers: Fat girls are blaming men, soceity for not finding them attractive and trying to force (unsuccessfully) men to find them attractive because “they are the new average”. Call girls with normal BMIs anorexic, etc.

    Single By Choice: Invent “singlism”, create new “discrimination” against singles as a defense mechanism for being unattractive harpys no man wants to commit to. Blame couples for “shaming” them, and try to create a “new average” of perpetually single women.

    It’s not that they’re not free to be as fat or as single as they want, it’s when they try to normalize it and force people to agree with them beyond merely toleration. Both movements will fail- they go against nature.

  • anonymous

    anonymous:
    ” The funny thing is that I know quite a number of single unmarried/childless people of both genders (more than a dozen) who are now in their mid-late 40s, and they ALL have master degrees/phds, own their own homes, are doing well financially.”
    ——————————–
    @ Susan
    “Are they satisfied emotionally as well? ”

    I think they ARE at a better place emotionally than before, now that they’re beyond the childbearing years, so that pressure is off. But, I do wonder where they’ll be when they’re elderly and retired.

    I’m not sure that all of their (the females at least) celebration of singleness is due to sour grapes as it *might* (emphasis on might) be a stage/phase that a lot of women reach during mid-life. I mean, a lot of married middle-aged women suddenly wish they weren’t (divorce or depression), right?
    What if it’s just a mid-life crisis thing where many women, married or never married, suddenly wish they can relive their younger days?
    The single ones might be glad to be single at this point.
    I see this as a possibility, especially in our culture.

    —————–
    Susan: “And do you see a difference between women and men?”

    Not particularly. I sense some regrets from both genders.
    Note: my circle consists of many 1st-generation Americans of various cultures that are more traditional/family orientated than what’s pushed in the media, so there’s still some pressure to form families from their elders, though that’s becoming more acceptable.

  • anonymous

    “though that’s becoming more acceptable.”

    Oops.
    Though it’s becoming more acceptable to remain single, especially if you’re doing well financially and can hang out with family/friends, travel, etc..

  • anonymous

    deti:
    “It is those never married young women who will see Bolick or read about great women like Pip and believe that their destinies inevitably will involve eclectic hobbies, the perfect dream job, time and money for musical and equestrienne pursuits, being constantly surrounded by good looking, healthy and interesting family and friends, and fielding multiple marriage proposals.”

    I understand your sentiment, but I really can’t see it working out the way you describe unless, except for a few, all of these women are complete utter nutjobs (wait a minute mister, don’t you go there, lol).
    I mean, I can see some becoming career women and passing up marriage so they can live like Kate, but I don’t see other women from the lower classes believing that they’re going to go from rags to riches overnight.

    Why would women who have NEVER ridden a horse, have never gotten on a plane in their entire lives, even at 20, think that it’s how they’ll live when they’re older with no effort on their part and without winning the lottery.
    Remember, the fantasy of marrying a b/millionaire doesn’t fit into the pursuit of singleness, so I don’t see too many women thinking like this.

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  • deti

    Susan:

    This thread’s played itself out. Time to put up a new one so we can all go back to railing about sluts like we usually do.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      Part 2 tomorrow, but I don’t think that will be a major comment generator either. Too little controversy.

  • MuffManMike

    @ Deti

    Come back to the “Defining Sexy” thread. I just launched another volley against the sex poz ship floating Skankslut bay. The vessel in question was under the command of Cpt. Tom.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “More easily able to support themselves, for one thing. Women in their 20s make 117% of what men the same age make. ”

    Yeah, but they probably spend 200% of what the men spend, so the men are still more financially independent. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yeah, but they probably spend 200% of what the men spend, so the men are still more financially independent.

      So true! Remember, Carrie Bradshaw couldn’t afford to buy her coop apartment, because she had 40K worth of shoes.

  • Doc

    It is good that she is happy by herself, as that is how she will remain, so there is no reason for her to beat herself up over decisions long since past which she cannot change.

    As a man approaching 50, I don’t date women older then early 30′s and I never will. I could give a lot of justifications for that, but the real reason is simple – I do not have to.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The Pips and Kate Bolicks of this world — intelligent, comparably affluent, well-rounded, self-sufficient, educated and self-actualized — will do just fine.

    It’s those who will be misled into the never-married lifestyle, who believe that it is all fabulosity, who concern me.

    It’s those who will make the poor choices that gradually winnow away their own options who concern me.

    It is those never married young women who will see Bolick or read about great women like Pip and believe that their destinies inevitably will involve eclectic hobbies, the perfect dream job, time and money for musical and equestrienne pursuits, being constantly surrounded by good looking, healthy and interesting family and friends, and fielding multiple marriage proposals.

    Idk. I’m going to say something that I know won’t be well received.

    I think that the bitterness runs deep in a lot of men and they want to shame women like Bolick for the choices she’s made.

    I don’t really care for her. She’s decent looking for an older woman, but she doesn’t sound like a good bet for a relationship. Yet, I don’t really think she poses much of a threat to the SMP. Certainly not as an individual, and not even as a voice in the media. If anything, I think she’ll just serve as a cautionary tale: the pretty, ambitious girl who grows up to be a lonely and pathetic cougar. Sucks to be her.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    “It’s true. Her last serious relationships were both with men 11 years her junior. They eventually felt the pressure of her ticking bio clock and bailed. She has made some very risky bets.”

    Susan, this feels like a buried lede to me, or at least a clue. I haven’t followed the story closely, so apologies if I am missing something:

    Since dumping her BF @ age 28, has she dated anyone within +/- 2, 3 years?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Since dumping her BF @ age 28, has she dated anyone within +/- 2, 3 years?

      She’s had a string of relationships. The last two were both with younger men, two years each. She references one in the Atlantic article – going to meet his family. I think that one ended at least a year ago, if not more.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,

    I think that the bitterness runs deep in a lot of men and they want to shame women like Bolick for the choices she’s made.

    I don’t really care for her. She’s decent looking for an older woman, but she doesn’t sound like a good bet for a relationship. Yet, I don’t really think she poses much of a threat to the SMP.

    Interesting perspective. Bolick certainly isn’t the poster girl for the “choosing to be single” movement. She made it abundantly clear in her article that being single was never her intent, it “just happened.”

    And yet, it’s not Bolick herself who poses a threat to the SMP. In some ways, it’s her attitude, the attitude of “eh, this is good for now, but eventually I’d like to do better.”

    I have this friend from college. She has always wanted to have sex with one of our male friends who, frankly, everyone has crushed on at some point. She dated another guy for 2 years, a guy who was totally in love with her, but when she went abroad, she decided to “take a break” to fool around while she was out of the country. She came back expecting him to be waiting for her (even though she said repeatedly she would never marry him), but he wasn’t. So she found another guy… a friend of Mr. In Demand, our male friend who she really wants to fuck. In a sense, she’s always keeping some guy around, but hoping for something better.

    That’s what leads to perpetual singleness, and that’s what puts this SMP in danger. I get the sense you’re pretty in-demand yourself, just from past comments and your experiences over the summer (plus you once said you’re an 8). Be careful, not everyone is so fortunate… some guys really are getting played in this SMP, and I don’t blame them for being bitter.

  • Jackie

    @JM (#212)

    Why “pathetic”?

  • Jackie

    @Olive

    I have a different perspective: I’ve known more than a few people who “just happened” to end up single. Every single one of them had been badly wounded and just felt like they didn’t have it in them to put themselves out there and try anymore.

    The ones I knew had been incredibly kind and generous with me. So it’s really hard for me to hate on a man or woman who “just happens” to end up single.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Jackie,
    My friend was kind and generous with me, sure. But she was nasty to her ex, who was completely dedicated in spite of the fact that she claimed repeatedly they would never marry. To this day, I do not understand why she kept him around for so long, knowing that they didn’t have a future.

    It occurs to me that she was lonely and just wanted someone to be there. In fact, it occurs to me that many people in this SMP are just lonely, and are looking for relationships to escape the loneliness. They don’t understand that a relationship doesn’t keep you from being lonely… you have to do that. Hell, I spend days being lonely, and I’m in a relationship. It’s something I have to deal with, it has nothing to do with my SO.

  • Jackie

    @Olive

    That is too bad about your friend– her poor BF. :(

    And co-signed on many people in the SMP being lonely. For me, it’s the opposite: There is a sacred sweetness in being alone. It doesn’t feel lonely to me usually. Lonely is being in a room full of people with whom you have no shared values. THOSE kind of situations can be *crushingly* lonely, IMHO.

    For the people I knew, most of them had low self-esteem at the time, and really felt the pressure to be in a relationship towards getting married. (Also, they are older, so it was a different time.) They were trying, desperately, to make something work with someone who was just not a good match for them. Or another one got cheated on and abused by the man she had devoted herself to (again, more low self-esteem).

    It can be a mean old world out there. If people are by themselves, not actively hurting others, I have no wish to put them down.

  • mnz

    We’re all soooo happy about it it toooo.

    That expains the plethora of articles ans extentive po-mo narrative s proclaiming how er, happy we are about it.

    A happy/content person is too ensconsed in happiness/contetment to ever speak of it.

    You’re trying to convince yerselves.

    Goot plark.

  • loveiseasy

    Disdaining what you can’t have is a common ego preservation mechanism and whenever it is people can’t achieve value in a given societal model they will seek to subvert it. This is mostly just another case of bitter people trying to convince everyone, but mostly themselves, that their lives aren’t a complete failure. I would pity them if what they were doing weren’t so harmful, so all I have is contempt.

    On another note, this blogging “sphere” saves lives. Initially I was of the mind that I had my 20s ahead of me to date around and planned to settle down eventually by 3o. Ha! I just thank my lucky stars that I figured it out at age 22, with the help of this sphere, that I was only deluding myself and would most likely end up unhappy, alone, and bitter by then.

  • Jonny

    @Mark Trueblood “I’m saying, if we can’t even get social conservatives to genuinely defend traditional marriage, what hope do we have to convert liberals? In other words, remove stick from eye before pointing out the speck in others.”

    Is this a non sequitur?

    Do you have a concept of a traditional marriage to discuss when you focus on the breakup of the marriage? I’m sure many traditionalists and social conservatives have a very strong opinion about what a marriage is, but to discuss their concept of marriage when you’re talking about the terms of divorce and child custody is rather strange.

    Let’s talk about traditional marriage. Yes, a woman should submit. A woman should have lots of children. The woman should stay home and take care of the household at least until the child(ren) can go to school. She should not have to work unless it is really necessary.

    The man should be the head of household and earn the majority of the income. He should lead the household and be the final arbiter of disputes.

    If the marriage should end in divorce, the house and the kids should revert to the husband/father. The wife/mother should be allowed to move on with her life if she chooses. She deserves alimony based on the length of marriage. Since the father has custody, she deserves no child support payments unless she is the custodial parent.

    Thus, men have the most advantages. Will women agree to such an arrangement? I think not. The state of marriage continues to deteriorate.

    I think there could be a middle ground between the extremes of today’s modern legal marriage/divorce/family law and something more equitable towards men. I have no idea of the best approach, but please start the conversation.

  • Petruchio

    This is what class looks like.

    As for Kate, she’s lost in the wilderness.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    SINGLE HOOD AND THE UNBEARABLE LIGHTNESS
    OF BEING

    Our editor has once again brought us an excellent precis of an intriguing topic; indeed, it was that which brought me to HUS. I have told you I pictured myself as the avuncular uncle pointing the way to a path that I presumed (dangerously) we all were headed. This topic posits a very different approach, one that requires me to take an admonitory tone.

    I have no quarrel with single hood; my favorite philosopher, Epictetus, was single, although he encouraged his followers to marry (one of whom said “Ok, I’d like to marry your daughter”). So were many others. There have always been those who preferred the completeness of their own world to bargaining for, with and against the vicissitudes of outrageous fortune. They didn’t want distraction. Ok for them.

    But if I’m reading this correctly, what is being posited here isn’t that, not really. It is the personal choice to reject ab initio the notion of committed love for what is described as a “political” impulse. Oh boy.

    Our editor puts her finger right on it-the choice between personal happiness and fulfillment and…..well, I’m not sure. The quotes above confuse me. In Tom Wolfe’s “The Bonfire of the Vanities” he borrows the idea that there is no “self”, that we are defined by the boundaries of the social milieu, what others expect of us, the status rewards conferred by our adoption of same, and without them we do not exist. So, is this “single hood” impulse a way of rejecting that, saying “I will define myself precisely on my own terms and reject this institution as a constraint on that power”? Well, Uncle Tom will tell you- ain’t no free lunch. Go in with your eyes open, and I hope it works. Ignore the lyrics from “Desperado” (Eagles et al): “Freedom well, that’s just some people talking/your prison is walking through this world all alone”. Godspeed.

    There is also the dynamic tension between romantic individualism and social activism as explored by Tom Robbins (lot of Toms write) in “Still Life with Woodpecker”. This is a little bit of a stretch, as the character who portrays it has killed someone by bombing in order to protest the bombing and killing in Viet Nam. He lost perspective-as everyone does who fails to connect social activism with personal happiness, who thinks we’ll just take this brief “time out” from our humanity while we impose usually appalling butchery and slaughter and once we get a few hundred, or thousand, or million people out of the way we’ll be restored and thus free to move on to utopia. On a smaller and more personal scale, the “single” is the “romantic individual” who sacrifices for the good of the order, to more or less prove a point. Life does not have a point-by God it is here to be lived. Ask me how I learned this.

    My title is a little disingenuous-being is not unbearably light, but having a committed partner through it all does anchor us while it at the same time lifts us. I don’t want to make this a chronicle, but now when I hug my Susan we really hug, we really really kiss-I cannot imagine what this would be like without her. THIS is freedom, this is love, this is life.

    Ok remember what I said about no free lunch? You want that freedom lonesome cowboy have at it. But Uncle Tom has-well, by God it’s a parable!

    This parable concerns me and (most of you). Goes like this. Some of you may feel sorry for me in my situation. Don’t be. Imagine it’s late at night in the city; you’re outside the best Italian restaurant, hungry as hell, but you’re not sure you’re going to get seated. Just as you arrive Munson steps out into the clear night air, so obviously sated with a few good bottles of wine and an excellent, lingering meal that he’s smiling the (somewhat) smug look of the satisfied, and as he calls for a cab his wife Susan joins him, and they stand there arm in arm bracing each other against the chill, share a small joke, laugh, kiss. The image stays with you as you enter to see of you can get a table.

    Or you can drive yourself alone to Taco Bell to be able to get home in time for the “Sex and the City” reruns on cable (History/ESPN channels for the guys).

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Munson
    Superb as usual. clap clap clap :D
    I had a relative that was surrounded by a lot of fabulous singles in New York that used to hammer home how free and wonderful their lives were as much as possible (they outnumbered her so probably that is why they decided they could get away with this). She, very cruelly I might add, started to cut out, or/and print and remember all the people found death in their apartments days after the fact. I must say that it did managed to shut the “happy singles” after a couple of this comments from my relative. No one wants to hang out with a person that might have a point it seems like. ;)

  • Wudang

    Susan:

    “I’m working on a post about education, and I planned to reference that study”

    What I don`t understand is when the education gap between women and men already being as large as it is that guys with an education haven`t yet noticed a very clear demand from women just by having an education. If we look at those with an education as one SMP the gender imbalance is as or more extreme than the one you find in Russia or Latvia and other places were the women are chasing the men. Maybe it just haven`t started to show yet because the women are still not settling in the belief they will find the ideal man. But in 10-20 years I would think reality sinks in an then for a man having an education should be a huge benefit in the SMP. If he has an education that is prestigous and leads to a high paying job such as doctor, lawyer, engineer etc. He should be golden. Even more so since women tend to take so much more of the fluffy degrees that leads to little pay and no career.

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  • Jesus Mahoney

    Why “pathetic”?

    Idk. Cougars always seem to be desperately clutching at fading youth.

  • VJ

    Some data to consider here. There’s a Marriage decline in/for All Ages but particularly @ ages 18-29, & now a clear Minority of marriages with “64 percent of men aged 25 to 29 [were] still single in 2011, up from 59 percent in 2008.”

    ” Among adults ages 25-34, fewer than half (44%) were married in 2010, compared with 82% in 1960. Although most Americans in their mid-30s onward are married, the proportions have declined notably since 1960.”

    http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2011/12/14/barely-half-of-u-s-adults-are-married-a-record-low/

    College educated women seem to still be doing much better here, perhaps working against their instincts and ignoring some of the recent miserable advice from the professional feminist lobbying groups. Just by trying a bit harder, thinking better & more clearly, and yes, being willing to try and sacrifice and even {{GASP!}} Consider settling earlier than always waiting until they bump up against their natural limits of fertility is a decent start.

    Much like the college women who regarded KB as literally the ‘Ghost of X-Mas’ future & past with some repressed horror, the standard issue cognitive dissonance here needs to be radically informed by the facts. There are currently very select populations of younger males willing Or able to start families @ around 30 say. Most are not matching up well with the standard ideal of ‘cute, handsome, tall & lovely, ymmy, strong but haughty and insolent’ alphas of most feminine dreams and imagining as influenced by Hollywood & TV.

    No, they’re most likely quite ordinary looking and seeming. The tall but ‘adorkable’ chemistry dude who plays weekend hockey and has a touching bromance with his retriever. He hunts a bit, but has a solid job doing bench chemistry for a large Fortune 500 company. It’s tough work & long hours, but he remains lonely just the same, as he’s deemed ‘not cool enough’ to satisfy most of the women he seeks out in local bars & dating sites online. He’s invisible to them mostly, as are most of his ‘average & ordinary’ contemporaries. They talk too slow, perhaps take life all too seriously seemingly, or are a bit quiet for anyone’s taste.

    They’re independent plumbers, the sole proprietor electricians, the industrial welders, even yes the guy who owns the local car repair shop or works diligently in the service department. Small town accountants, lawyers, tax preparers, CPAs, and small biz owners. Most of these guys? Get married, have kids and live very stable & successful lives. They used to be, and often still are, the bedrock of their communities. Many will become quite wealthy beyond their & your imagining. But they’ll never quite be as ‘smart’ ‘hip’ or ‘cool’ as all those Hollywood’ dudes you’ve seen in movies, on TV or SATC/imagined in whatever Harlequin type romance you were primed for during those youthful and halcyon college years you recall so fondly & well.

    And there’s the rub: the increasingly unrealistic expectations of yes, basically one sex for the other means that they’ll only sparingly come to realize their short sightedness quite late, perhaps only by 35-40+ when their SMV is/has declined to such a degree that they’re only now willing to consider much of the rest of the 80% of the population as potential mates. Ladies? By that time, yes, many of the ‘good/normal’ guys Are ‘taken’ and/or Have already been married. Get used to it. Ditto for the guys who wait out their ‘opposition’ that long too. Very few women, even from distant foreign lands want to marry a 50 something who’s looking to start a ‘new’ family. It’s a lot of work, effort & money to try and pull this off, when the opportunities could have been had much easily, even a decade earlier, in-country.

    So why we arrived here may be problematic to discover. But there’s no denying the reality of the declining marriage rates. Even more slowly for college educated women, they’ll know if they want kids and/or the ‘respectability’ & stability of marriage, something’s got to give, and the widely sold fantasy of their fondest dreams has been a fiendish commercial lie. Life is more boring and often more tragic than it is on TV. Teeny moms are not universally celebrated & feted around the country, no matter how cute they imagine themselves to be. No matter how telegenic, they’re candidates for welfare and hard times for their next 20 years, even if they’re very lucky to have married the father Or some thoroughly decent man (sometimes deluded too) who wants to ‘take care’ of them.

    Many of us imagine we might forgo these very hard life choices, to remain in effect ‘juveniles’ for more than half our lives, well into our 40′s. But when we do AND remain Unmarried? It means that family formation suffers, and our likelihood for a successful union may remain quite fleeting and/or short. Someone who marries for the first time @ 36+ say is not only less likely to have more than 1 child, but they’re more likely to live apart from their spouse for significant segments of time, due to death, disability, or injury. That’s the natural life course of events. Try and postpone them indefinitely, (for whatever reason), and it’ll still wind up impacting the rest of your life nevertheless. ‘Nuff said. Cheers, ‘VJ’

    [Sorry for the length]

  • JFinn

    This whole conversation is radically gynocentric. How typical.

    This article was popular(among women) because it reinforced their objectifying of men. That women derive their great value from having a vagina, while men derive their value from their money(so most are losers.)

    I personally love the stream of bigoted articles and conversations the MSM has heaped onto us for the past 3 years. More and more men are waking up to the fact that modern women do not view them as human beings. They view men solely as utilities for women.

  • JFinn

    “On top of that, having children is an extremely risky decision for a man, given the child custody laws in the US and the West. Again, I’d love to see traditionalists and social conservatives pour even half as much energy into changing these laws as they do pointing fingers at teh gays and teh menz. (And yes, I know not all traditionalists are like that.)”

    The politicians are middlemen. They won’t do anything about this because their employers, the voters(mostly female,) would never have it. Men aren’t at risk bc of these laws. They’re at risk bc women and white knights seek to enslave them.

  • lovelost

    @David Foster #176

    Not sure you can assume that holding an engineering degree, even an advanced one, automatically makes one Beta. As one data point GE CEO Jeff Immelt, got his undergrad degree in Applied Mathematics from Dartmouth. Doubt that Immelt is all that Beta….pretty sure his predecessor Jack Welch (PhD in Chemical Engineering, U-Illinois) would be considered Beta by very few.

    Hi David, I totally agree with you. I can speak for myself and some of the STEM guys who are my professional contacts on LinkedIn. No, having a STEM degree doesn’t make you a beta.

    However, the context here is SMP. In my professional life I know I am a alpha, i say this with all humility, not bragging about it. Let me give you an example, during my grad school, I had the opportunity to meet grad students
    from MIT at a conference. Are they beta, yes some of them when it comes to dating. But what about their professional life, and research, no they are not alpha, in fact they are super-alphas.

    They publish in Nature, Science and PNAS type journals. They are the top 5% of the STEM population in this world and are the Super Alphas.

    however at HUS the context is SMP, there a lot of STEM guys are beta, including me, BadgerHut is an exception. Speaking for myself, and it is still applicable today, I loved my research a lot and enjoyed, thus
    long hours even on weekend, and thus wasn’t part of the social scene a lot. So i think in the context of dating a lot of STEM guys, are beta.

    Basically, I think the distinction between STEM people and non-STEM people tends to be a bit overdrawn. They’re not entirely separate species from one another.

    I am ready to compete with whomsovever when it comes to STEM, but I have my limitations too, does that makes me a beta in my professional life, yes again to some extent.

    “overdrawn”

    yes, but provides a some what clear distincition when used in the right context, i.e. SMP.

    On Jack Welch, he created the most super-competitive and super-alpha environment at GE, only the 8-10 score people become Managers, and rest pack your bags. There goes a beta STEM using his grad school experience to create a super-competitive and super alpha environment.

    & Susan #195
    Agreed. In fact, I’d say that the majority of the guys in my b-school class would be considered beta.

    I don’t know if that holds today, when everyone is fighting to get their share of the pie, also IMO, Globalization was not pervasive back then compared to what it is now. Circumstances and environment
    does make you more competitive, it is a well know fact. Don’t get me wrong that you’re not competitive, things are just more diffcult these days.

  • lovelost

    @Susan #192
    You have anticipated my next move! I’m working on a post about education, and I planned to reference that study. Thanks so much!

    I am getting to know you better, “girl”. :)

  • Anna

    @ Susan
    “She’s had a string of relationships. The last two were both with younger men, two years each.”

    I’m surprised with the amount of women who do this.
    A recent post on Rules Revisted about Older women said something I’ve been observing for quite some time:
    “Guys interested in long term relationships will not consider older women seriously. On a few occasions I was dating women who were older by six to ten years, and really enjoyed their beauty and company. However, when it came time to cut it off or have a relationship, I cut it off. Reconsidering my motivations for those decisions now, I recognize one that dominated the others: despite my attraction for those women at the time, I didn’t want to look around myself ten years later and see a hotter, younger girl – closer to my own age – and think “I could have been with a girl like that instead.” When my wife starts aging, I want the other girls I could have had (i.e. those in my age-range) to be aging with her, so that I won’t be constantly reminded of the sacrifice I made to be with her – even if it was one I know was worth it. The grass is already always greener on the other side; a man doesn’t need an age disparity contributing to that effect when his woman starts losing her initial shine.”

    From what I’ve seen around me as well, very few men (with options) consider women older than themselves as a great option long-term. Looks might be part of it, along with other factors such as open-mindedness (older women can be cynical and a bit tied up in their current lifestyle).
    It surprises me that so many women in their thirties try their luck with younger men – it rarely gives good results. I would imagine someone like Kate – who obviously do a lot of research on these things, would choose differently.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    I get the sense you’re pretty in-demand yourself, just from past comments and your experiences over the summer (plus you once said you’re an 8). Be careful, not everyone is so fortunate… some guys really are getting played in this SMP, and I don’t blame them for being bitter.

    Don’t get me wrong, I know that there are many women out there like your friend. I broke off an engagement because I suspected the woman I was with of being like that, in a way. Or different, but just as bad. It felt to me like she had her fun with asshats and then turned to me when it was time to do the responsible thing. So I walked.

    But I don’t think that bitterness helps anyone. Blaming someone else for your problems puts you in a position of powerlessness. Nobody can “play” you without your consent.

    For what it’s worth, I spent many years of my life being bitter. That bitterness brewed beneath the surface for most of that time, and I wasn’t even aware of it. I thought I was very much like Megaman. Whenever I read Megaman, I’m reminded of my old self. But the bitterness was there, lurking beneath the surface.

    I don’t know that I would say I’m in-demand at the moment, but I do know that I was passed up by girls for most of my life. And honestly, I hated them for it. I would have denied that a year ago–not just to others, but to myself–but now I know it was true. And that hatred was really just a hatred of myself. I didn’t feel worthwhile. I didn’t feel attractive. I didn’t feel like I deserved to be in-demand. I blamed women for making me feel that way. So I was in the very confusing position of hating women for making me feel that way and then loving any woman who showed me the least bit of attention.

    And I’d always felt like that. I had a mom who not only made me feel that I wasn’t worthwhile or attractive, but actually told me that.

    Here’s the thing: it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. Bitterness makes you ugly. If you’re a guy who’s a 5, bitterness is going to make you a 1 or a 2. You can say that you don’t blame guys for being bitter, but be honest, do you find it attractive? Of course you don’t. You might pity them, but you don’t lust after them. Only sick people would.

    I see men here interpreting everything female-related as negative. Any time they come across a woman who’s decent, they cry “outlier.” Calling decent women “outliers” is just a way to preserve the negative schema that supports their bitterness.

    Sure, there are crappy women, and there are a lot of good ones besides. But being bitter is going to repel instead of attract the quality women. And instead of taking responsibility for their problems (“maybe it’s me… maybe I’m too bitter…”), they chalk it up to women liking assholes. “See, here I am, a nice fucking guy, and nobody appreciates it. Instead, they want assholes.”

    Getting over their bitterness would help men better evaluate women, and it would make them more attractive. For men, SMV is so much more about attitude than appearance. People talk about women in their twenties having so much more power in terms of relationships than men, but really, men have so much more control over their SMV than women. At any age.

  • jess

    Byron,
    I was an 80s anti- thatcherite. Did a few marches/ralleys.
    Even attended a few SW meets (thats Socialist Worker not Susan Walsh btw)
    I have somewhat calmed down since those days although still consider myself vaguely left of centre (uk perspective- not USA obviously)

    but, now looking back….

    1.the middle class was big enough to ensure her majority- they could not have been that rare (cue debate on aspiring working classes….)
    2. UK industry was already destroyed by the unions. not her fault.
    3. she did indeed take on the unions. at the time i hated her for that. now i think she was 100% right. imo.
    4. look where her free market capitalism has got us today ! but to be fair many countries copied that market model.
    5. i hated the poll tax at the time but i remember watching michael portillo argue with tony been over the issue and i thought portillo won the arguments (thus began my own seeds of doubt over socialism). one could argue that the poll tax was more fair and democratic than the council tax banding system (which was demonstrably unfair). there was certainly no justification for the poll tax riots (nor was there for the recent riots either)
    6.CCTC cameras are a good thing. the only people who dont like them are criminals surely? i used to work with the police on violent crime years ago. My boss at the time told me that 90%+ of all violent convictions included the use of CCTV footage. And this was years ago!- its probably even higher now.
    7. her intolerance was quite revolting. (and cynical- she must have known some of her own cabinet were gay)
    8. she was an awesome leader- but her inability to mix styles (yes i have been on those naff leadership courses!) led to her downfall.

    i have mixed feelings about her tenure. She did advice female rights by virtue of her status and she was one of the 1st environmentalists (oh yes she was!). She was often ridiculed for her worries over CO2 etc and was an advocate of lean burn technology. She has been so proved right there.

    She didn’t produce a facist state though (a bit daft to suggest that I reckon) and I dont really think she broke up communities at all. I think the overly soft welfare state bred laziness and selfishness and in that sense she was right to say society ‘doesnt’ exist- because we do all put our families 1st. thats not to say there isn’t a wider civic duty to help others and pay our taxes- its just a recognition of peoples real priorities and motivations in life.

    I hated her for 13 years- but now- maybe, just maybe I would attend her funeral and pay genuine respects when the time comes.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Wow, jess showed up for something other than defending promiscuous women. How’ve you been, jess?

  • deti

    “Yet, I don’t really think [Kate Bolick] poses much of a threat to the SMP. Certainly not as an individual, and not even as a voice in the media. If anything, I think she’ll just serve as a cautionary tale: the pretty, ambitious girl who grows up to be a lonely and pathetic cougar. Sucks to be her.”

    But Bolick’s life and her misguided choices won’t be a cautionary tale. That’s the point. A lot of women will try to emulate her, thinking it will be all jetsetting and wine/cheese/caviar parties. In fact their reality will look more like the social worker, the teacher or the legal secretary. It’s not about male bitterness. It’s about female unhappiness and lack of reasonableness and realism, and the societal breakdown to which it contributes.

    In her article she bemoans and complains about her singleness. She tells Susan’s focus group she wants to get married. Deep down, she has deluded herself that marriage, 2.4 children and the house with the picket fence are just around the corner, though she claims to have resigned herself to the real possibility that she might never get married.

    The cold hard facts are that her marital options dwindle by the day. Her odds of having children are even less. Her best chance for marriage is a wealthy older man to whom she can generate some attraction. Those men have options out the ass, are as rare as hen’s teeth, and have more women than they know what to do with.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      But Bolick’s life and her misguided choices won’t be a cautionary tale. That’s the point. A lot of women will try to emulate her, thinking it will be all jetsetting and wine/cheese/caviar parties.

      I don’t think so. That’s what led to the conversation about whether the girls would prioritize career or family. They heard her story, and one of them said, “I don’t think I can do this (dating) for much longer. I know I don’t want to do it until I’m 39.” They started talking about timing, and all of them agreed that if they found the right guy now, they’d be happy to lock him down. Not a single one was looking for another few years of partying. At 22-23, these girls have experienced all the partying and drinking they could handle since they got to college at 18, and they want to stop. They’re sick of it – they don’t even go to bars anymore. Their male peers have also stopped partying and drinking so much. I think the Millennials are going to reject Gen X’s path.

  • jess

    not too bad thank you JM.

    i have always been something of a political animal actually…

    just to be clear I’m on record as advising against extreme promiscuity and unsafe sex particularly.

    I just think its healthy for men and women to enjoy a few flings when young and settling down with a compatible partner a little later in life.

    Dont wanna start up another debate- just setting the record straight there.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    deti,

    I disagree. Sue said that the girls in her focus group all expressed the desire to get married and have a family. None of them seduced by the glamor of that lifestyle. And, like you said, Bolick, “bemoans and complains about her singleness.” I don’t imagine that many girls are looking to emulate that.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    Jesus @ 234 That was a great and very honest post. Sometimes there is a lot of negativity on some boards, most prevalent in how some men relish the idea that women get older and “hit the wall.” Ironic that game is so much about aloofness but some men spend their time obsessed and bitter about women.

    When I was a senior in high school there was a guy at my job that looked like an overgrown ewok. He was hairy and chubby- but he was SO COOL- both aloof and hilarious. We were good friends, and had he shown interest(which for me, would be something very overt as I am aloof as well) I would have totally dated him. Looks are part of it, although not everything (although to be perfectly honest we would have had a “talk” about the gut). I mean, here I am ten years later talking about him….

    I haven’t had time to read the epicness that is these comment threads so forgive me if you have already mentioned it- but how’s your love life now? Has it improved once you learned to let go of your bitterness? Frankly i think a lot of women are bitter too.

    From Fight Club: ” We’ve all been raised on television to believe that one day we’d all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars, but we won’t. We’re slowly learning that fact. And we’re very, very pissed off”

    Women have been taught by media and society that they are the most unique special beautiful creatures on earth and that they would marry those rock gods and millionaires (“someday my prince will come”)…and that doesn’t happen- and they’re very very pissed off- so they write columns justifying their bad choices ;)

  • jess

    for what its worth, all the girls at my previous work place (bar one), said they wanted a family in the future.

    currently some are in LTRs, some are dating

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    Good points all around. I suppose I come at it from a different angle, having been surrounded by college-age women for the last 5 years and watching them do the relationship dance. If men are bitter, women are whimsical. Or maybe that’s not the right word, as it implies a happy, carefree spirit. No, women just don’t know what they want. Or maybe they do, as the men here claim: maybe they want assholes who won’t commit.

    I’m all in favor of personal responsibility, and I think that some of these ‘sphere guys are more wont to blame than embrace responsibility. But on the other hand, women aren’t taking responsibility either. Maybe the young ladies in Susan’s focus group want to get married, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re on the marriage path (not that I claim to know what path they’re on).

    Let me go back to my friend. It’s not that her ex is bitter; in fact, he’s one of the greatest, least-bitter guys I know, and he didn’t let his failed relationship stop him from putting himself out there again. But it’s her behavior that I’m more concerned with: she wants nothing more than to get married and have kids, but as far as I’m concerned, she hasn’t set herself up to achieve that goal. It’s just one dead-end relationship after another. That’s the kind of lifestyle Bolick has led, and it’s what engenders bitterness in the men. I don’t think anyone would want to be the kind of guy a girl strings along as she’s trying to decide what she really wants.

    I admire your ability to use your past as an opportunity for personal growth. I wish more people were more interested in introspection than victimization, and that goes for both genders.

  • Jonny

    “Guys interested in long term relationships will not consider older women seriously.”

    I don’t know if this is a principle, but I did marry an older woman for my first marriage. She was one year older. It didn’t last. There is a control issue with women in general and older women in particular. So I don’t recommend dating and marrying older women. Women’s hypergamy gets in the way. She did want someone better. She left me to get it and she didn’t (ha ha ha).

    I am now married with my second wife who is 10 years younger. She is much more easier to get along with. She doesn’t have a power issue with me. Younger women are nicer (although she is now at the same age of my ex when she divorced me 10 years ago).

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Flavia,

    Yes, I’m in a relationship now and things are going extremely well.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    Only damaged girls want to date assholes who won’t commit. If those women aren’t dating “nice guys,” then score one for the nice guys.

    What engenders bitterness in people is unrealistic expectations, not other people.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Only damaged girls want to date assholes who won’t commit. If those women aren’t dating “nice guys,” then score one for the nice guys.

    I don’t see that my friend is particularly “damaged.” If she was, it’s because she bought into the Disney Princess Entitlement shit, but she doesn’t have some weird childhood past or something.

    In fact, if this is true, then damn. The vast majority of my female friends are “damaged.”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    In fact, if this is true, then damn. The vast majority of my female friends are “damaged.”

    Um, yea.

  • deti

    @ Jesus M:

    It is very true that a lot of men need to get over their bitterness. That takes time. Some turn inward. Some write comments on blogs to get it out because no one other than people writing comments on blogs even understands the concepts that they now grok and that frustrated them for so many years. Some of those men have good reason for their bitterness. Those reasons are beyond the scope of this comment. That said, those reasons do exist, they are real, they have caused untold agony and economic destruction for millions of men, and they need to be addressed if any headway is to be made in the ultimate goal of getting men and woman into lasting relationships.

    I believe in that goal. It’s one of the reasons I keep coming back here and banging my head against this wall. I have a son who I desperately want to prevent from making the mistakes I made. I want him to get some game so he can expand his options and live his life the way he wants. I don’t want him becoming a woman hater but I don’t want him living in my basement wanking to internet porn at age 30 either.

    I have a daughter who I pray will be smart about her sexual choices. I don’t want her to be a prude who fears men. I also don’t want her getting blackout drunk, letting playas use her as a sextoy, destroying her pair bonding ability, and ruining her SMV and MMV either.

    I understand MGTOW. I understand some men have sworn off women. But that lifestyle just won’t appeal to most men.

    There are good women out there. Some comment on this blog. I am sure many more are reading. But many women, despite their good qualities, can be quite unrealistic, unreasonable and just plain dumb. And many crappy women are quite good at passing themselves off as quality women. And many quality women fall for assholes, time and time again. It is true that some do not. But it is undeniably true that there are many women — good yet unreasonable, short sighted women — who do fall for assholes while sneering and turning up their noses at good men. The fact that they keep gravitating to assholes doesn’t necessarily make them bad. It shows them to be unreasonable, immature, reckless, even stupid, but not “bad” or worthless.

    So men do need to get over their bitterness, yes. But women must also do the concomitant work of letting go of their unreasonable expectations, and see men for who and what they are rather than solely what men can do for them.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    What engenders bitterness in people is unrealistic expectations, not other people.

    I see where you got this, but I think I have to disagree. Not every single attitude is rooted inside a person. People are products of their environments in many ways. It doesn’t mean they can’t overcome the environments, but when the environment itself is fucked up, it’s time to change.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    How do you think people become damaged?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    The environment is never “fucked up.” It is what it is. Some environments are more stable than others. Some are friendlier than others. But none is “fucked up.”

    There are two types of things in this world: things we can control and things we can’t. People who are bitter focus on the things that can’t control too often.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    And many crappy women are quite good at passing themselves off as quality women. And many quality women fall for assholes, time and time again. It is true that some do not. But it is undeniably true that there are many women — good yet unreasonable, short sighted women — who do fall for assholes while sneering and turning up their noses at good men. The fact that they keep gravitating to assholes doesn’t necessarily make them bad. It shows them to be unreasonable, immature, reckless, even stupid, but not “bad” or worthless.

    + a million.’

    I have to believe that people can change, and that environments can change, and that society can change. And on a mass scale, women need an attitude overhaul. I wish I could bring you guys to college… you’d see that it’s not just my friends who are “damaged,” it’s women in general who are confused and mixed up about what real relationships are about. It’s not about “good women” and “crappy women,” it’s about a society that has made its mark on a generation of women who are mixed up and reeling in this hookup culture. If I thought the “crappy women” were beyond repair, and that the “good women” could do no wrong, I would shut down my blog.

  • Petruchio

    How vain are all these Glories, all our Pains,
    Unless good Sense preserve what Beauty gains:
    That Men may say, when we the Front-box grace,
    Behold the first in Virtue as in Face!
    Oh! if to dance all Night, and dress all Day,
    Charm’d the Small-pox, or chas’d old Age away;
    Who would not scorn what Housewife’s Cares produce,
    Or who would learn one earthly Thing of Use?
    To patch, nay ogle, might become a Saint,
    Nor could it sure be such a Sin to paint.
    But since, alas! frail Beauty must decay,
    Curl’d or uncurl’d, since Locks will turn to grey;
    Since painted, or not painted, all shall fade,
    And she who scorns a Man, must die a Maid,
    What then remains but well our Pow’r to use,
    And keep good Humour still whate’er we lose?
    And trust me, dear! good Humour can prevail,
    When Airs, and Flights, and Screams, and Scolding fail.
    Beauties in vain their pretty Eyes may roll;
    Charms strike the Sight, but Merit wins the Soul.

  • MuffManMike

    DETI @ 248 FTW

  • Jonny

    “So men do need to get over their bitterness, yes.”

    Hmm. Why? Why not hold on to it? There is little meeting of the minds between women and men. Until the situation improves, more bitterness will be the result.

    Perhaps things will change and men will get over it. I’m not so sure. I’m still stewing over my 1st divorce. Betrayal isn’t something that you can just get over. Nonetheless, I try to shelter my bitterness from my current relationship, who shall never know the extent of my previous experience… long past, a long long time ago.

    As for women falling for assholes, perhaps we should stop worrying about such things that we have no control over. You can only control yourself and your emotions. Focus on the women who don’t have such feminist ideas. The right women are out there. Many are probably at home doing nothing and are waiting for the right guy to come along.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The right women are out there. Many are probably at home doing nothing and are waiting for the right guy to come along.

      Yup, they’re the 80%.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    The environment is never “fucked up.” It is what it is. Some environments are more stable than others. Some are friendlier than others. But none is “fucked up.”

    Again with the semantics. :-P “Fucked up” is just my way of saying what you’ve already said: that some environments are not friendly or stable.

    There are two types of things in this world: things we can control and things we can’t. People who are bitter focus on the things that can’t control too often.

    Environments can be controlled. That’s what social movements are all about: exercising agency and changing society’s beliefs. Check out the Civil Rights Movement… each single black person could focus on personal agency within the environment, or they could band together to change the environment. And that’s what they did.

    Sometimes personal growth is useful. In social work, we call it “micro-practice.” Sometimes, a problem goes beyond the scope of what an individual can do, and in that case, social movements are useful. We call it “macro-practice.”

    Incidentally, my focus in grad school is macro-practice. That shouldn’t come as a surprise. ;-)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    There are good women out there. Some comment on this blog. I am sure many more are reading.

    Agreed.

    But many women, despite their good qualities, can be quite unrealistic, unreasonable and just plain dumb. And many crappy women are quite good at passing themselves off as quality women.

    Agreed. And ditto for men.

    And many quality women fall for assholes, time and time again.

    There are many women with some good qualities that fall for assholes, but I would say that women who fall for assholes are not, as a whole, “quality.” I would say that falling for assholes is a sure sign that a woman is not quality.

    But it is undeniably true that there are many women — good yet unreasonable, short sighted women — who do fall for assholes while sneering and turning up their noses at good men. The fact that they keep gravitating to assholes doesn’t necessarily make them bad.

    You’re interpreting “good” and “bad” in broad terms here. I’m not saying that a woman who falls for an asshole and who isn’t attracted to good men is a “bad” person. I’m saying that she’s a person that good men should avoid for relationships anyway.

    It shows them to be unreasonable, immature, reckless, even stupid, but not “bad” or worthless.

    Unreasonable, immature, reckless and even stupid…. these are not the traits of a “quality” woman.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    Of course certain aspects of one’s environment can be changed. Those things would fall under the category of things that can be controlled.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “So men do need to get over their bitterness, yes.”

    Hmm. Why? Why not hold on to it?

    Because it’s bitterness and it doesn’t feel good?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    If I thought the “crappy women” were beyond repair, and that the “good women” could do no wrong, I would shut down my blog.

    I know for a fact that people can change. I just think that people need to begin with themselves and be the change they wish to see in the world, you know?

  • MuffManMike

    Because it’s bitterness and it doesn’t feel good?

    no it doesn’t. but bitterness, like black coffee, helps keep the eyes open and prevents you from accidentally swallowing the blue pill and falling for NAWALT and repeating the past.

    Bitterness has to run it’s course. Only then when you’re seeing the world properly with your new eyes and understand your new world are you ready to venture into it and navigate it.. without bitterness, but with knowledge.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    no it doesn’t. but bitterness, like black coffee, helps keep the eyes open and prevents you from accidentally swallowing the blue pill and falling for NAWALT and repeating the past.

    All woman aren’t like that. Olive isn’t like that, though she does seem to know a lot of skanks at school. But there are women like the one’s on this blog in the real world.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Of course certain aspects of one’s environment can be changed. Those things would fall under the category of things that can be controlled.

    Right. So in this case, we’re discussing hookup culture. The “environment” (the SMP) needs to change.

    You’re interpreting “good” and “bad” in broad terms here. I’m not saying that a woman who falls for an asshole and who isn’t attracted to good men is a “bad” person. I’m saying that she’s a person that good men should avoid for relationships anyway.

    Here’s your hangup, I think. You’ve placed women into two categories: “quality” women, who are good for relationships, and “non-quality” women, who aren’t good for relationships. Sounds like you got what you consider a quality woman. Good on you.

    But with all due respect, I think your thinking is simplistic (and it usually isn’t). “Quality” women can be just as full of the bad shit as “non-quality” women, and “non-quality” women can be sweethearts. Take my friend. I’m still good friends with her because, even though she’s confused as hell about relationships, her heart is in the right place, and she’s earnest.

    And regardless of whether she fell for assholes in the past, it’s the attitude she carries into the future that will determine her success. She can change.

    And people want to change. A few weeks ago an old regular e-mailed me saying she feels the guys at HUS would throw her into the “non-quality” category if she continued posting here, so she’s either lurking or decided to head out. The point is that she’s not inherently bad for a relationship, and she’s young. She’ll mature and grow, and will hopefully make a guy very happy. “Non-quality” women can become “quality” and vice-versa.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      A few weeks ago an old regular e-mailed me saying she feels the guys at HUS would throw her into the “non-quality” category if she continued posting here, so she’s either lurking or decided to head out.

      That makes me so sad! Truly. Sigh. I worry about this a lot, and I’m sorry she feels judged. There are men here who appear to wish that vaginas could be detached from women entirely. I suppose it’s bitterness, anger, disappointment, fear, and more, and perhaps it’s justified. But it’s also toxic, it further poisons the SMP.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    I agree with all of that. But if we’re talking about relationships, then a “quality” woman would be one that would be a good choice for a healthy relationship, no?

    And I never said that we shouldn’t work to change the SMP. I’m not sure why you were arguing that point….

  • MuffManMike

    @ Jesus

    Don’t conflate the exception with the rule. The women on HUS are the rare breed at the moment.

    Many have self admitted they view things differently now only because of running through HUS. Our hostess Susan can attest to this just by looking through her archives.

    When i see the sea-change in attitude and run into more women in the dating scene who recognize and praise HUS as a valuable resource.. then i’ll agree.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I just think that people need to begin with themselves and be the change they wish to see in the world, you know?

    I agree. I once said I started my blog for myself, and I’m still doing it for myself. If people get on board with what I’m doing, cool.

    Also I’m not really “like that” or “not like that.” To be honest, I cherry-pick what I say here… I have not been dishonest, but I have not disclosed all my personal information. In other words, don’t think that the good women are all coming to Susan’s blog. :-P Some stuff about me would probably make you cringe. Doesn’t mean I can’t have a fruitful relationship (which is awesome these days, by the way!).

  • deti

    Olive:
    “it’s women in general who are confused and mixed up about what real relationships are about. It’s not about “good women” and “crappy women,” it’s about a society that has made its mark on a generation of women who are mixed up and reeling in this hookup culture. If I thought the “crappy women” were beyond repair, and that the “good women” could do no wrong, I would shut down my blog.”

    Technological changes led to cultural, political and legal changes that brought about the society we now have — a society marked by completely unrestrained hypergamy. Game is feminism’s bastard child.

    The women you spoke of your post are merely products of that society and environment. This environment is f**ked up and it’s producing f**ked up men and women. A lot of women think relationships are about hookups, Snooki, Kim Kardashian, and Britney Spears.

    A lot of women have completely unrealistic expectations. They think they can screw 10, 15, 20 or 40 men, it will have no effect on them whatsoever, and then when they are around 32 or 35, the perfect men will simply show up with a dozen roses and 2-carat solitaires.

    Some think relationships are women’s channel movies of the week in which their perfect husband earns a tidy six figures and has big pecs, washboard abs and a huge, always hard pecker ready to service her on a moment’s notice. She lives in a 5 BR 3.5 BA, 5000 SF house in Flushing or suburban CT with him, and her kids are perfect and earn straight As at the exclusive private school around the corner. She, meanwhile, works at an exciting, cool job in advertising, law, medicine or business, which never stresses her out, never requires late nights, and always involves adventure and intrigue.

    Women need to let go of these silly fantasies and see life for what it really is and not what this culture tells them it should be.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Don’t conflate the exception with the rule. The women on HUS are the rare breed at the moment.

    I’m not sure that they’re as rare as men here make them out to be. Not saying that there aren’t an abundance of trashy women today, but I think that there are more quality ones than most men here assume.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      I’m not sure that they’re as rare as men here make them out to be. Not saying that there aren’t an abundance of trashy women today, but I think that there are more quality ones than most men here assume.

      I am certain that you are correct. I’m tired of arguing the point, though. No amount of discussion here will alter the reality. Men who assume there are no good women are unlikely to ever find one.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    I only argued it because your MO lately has been “these guys need to quit being bitter and find the good women.” I just don’t think it’s that simple.

    Many have self admitted they view things differently now only because of running through HUS. Our hostess Susan can attest to this just by looking through her archives.

    This. I was a dumbass before I found HUS. :-P

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    I wasn’t putting you on a pedestal or anything. I was simply saying that you’re not hung up on assholes who won’t commit.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I was simply saying that you’re not hung up on assholes who won’t commit.

    At one time, I was.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    No. I think the men here would be better off not being bitter. But I didn’t say they should just go out and find the good women. Honestly, I wouldn’t have a problem if they all wanted to go out pumping and dumping the bad women.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    At one time, I was.

    Yes. You’ve said that. And I would’ve advised men to avoid you if they wanted a relationship.

  • MuffManMike

    Jesus,

    I’m not sure that they’re as rare as men here make them out to be. Not saying that there aren’t an abundance of trashy women today, but I think that there are more quality ones than most men here assume.

    Didn’t say trashy. Rare as in:
    - being introspective/looking inward
    - understanding their own nature, hypergamy
    - willing and able to comprehend the world from the male interest/perspective
    - caring about and striving towards ending injustices against men and looking for solutions

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike,

    In my opinion, a quality woman is one who wants a happy and healthy committed relationship with a man she loves and desires sexually. I don’t care if my gf understands the “male” perspective, as long as she listens to “my” perspective. The male perspective thing is bullshit anyway. The fact that we’re having this debate at all is proof of that.

  • WarmWoman

    “Many are probably at home doing nothing and are waiting for the right guy to come along.”

    That’s probably the biggest mistake someone can make. It’s a lot easier to meet people than one thinks, IMO. It just requires getting out of the house, smiling at people and breaking the ice.

    With the internet and meetup.com, there are so many single and professional social events now these days.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    And I would’ve advised men to avoid you if they wanted a relationship.

    You should tell my BF, he can still get out now. :-P Although I’d be devastated…

    I haven’t been perfect, but I’d like to think I haven’t been a bad relationship bet over the last few years.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    Just for the record, when I met my BF I was still in asshole mode.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    I know you were. I think you’ve made some very positive changes. I wouldn’t tell your bf to get out now. But in the beginning, I would’ve told him he was a fool.

    Sometimes the risky bet pays off though. That’s good.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    To be honest, I cherry-pick what I say here… I have not been dishonest, but I have not disclosed all my personal information. In other words, don’t think that the good women are all coming to Susan’s blog. :-P Some stuff about me would probably make you cringe.

    Re: this, you’ve been pretty forthright, so unless you were wanking off more than one guy at a time or something totally trashy, I don’t think I’d be surprised. And anyway, I know some pretty awful people. Whatever the case, people change. Sometimes for the worse, but sometimes for the better.

  • MuffManMike

    Jesus,

    Not seeing it the way you are. I wouldn’t really care to be with a woman who ‘listened’ to my perspective but didn’t give a shit or concern about it. She can listen to me crow about frivolous divorce all she wants and nod her head, but if she’s not willing to examine it from ‘the male perspective’ then it’s on my head when i’m lining up for my second divorce because she’s unnnhhhappy that i’m not a Cullen or Salvatore.

    The fact that we’re having this debate at all only proves that there’s a long way to go before i’m convinced women en masse earn the right to claim NAWALT. You disagree, so be it.

    A quality woman is one who wants a happy and healthy committed relationship with a man she loves and desires sexually… i don’t know a single woman who wakes up in the morning and says ‘im going to strive for a miserable unhealthy abusive relationship with someone i detest and hate and have no desire for. End goal =/ comprehension of logical path to achieve it. All women strive for their happy ever after. Does not follow that 100% of women out there are quality women.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    But in the beginning, I would’ve told him he was a fool.

    Sometimes the risky bet pays off though. That’s good.

    Sometimes, the “nice guys” are all we really want.

    Falling for assholes, IMO, is really about self-hatred. If you don’t much like yourself, you won’t take nicely to being treated well. You know what I think? Kate Bolick and entitlement princesses and all my “damaged” friends just really hate themselves. 3 years ago, I hated myself too.

    Feminism and the Sexual Revolution have created a generation of miserable women who don’t know the true meaning of “self-confidence.” It’s hard to be confident when you’re surrounded by a bunch of miserable people. That’s why I’m afraid of women these days. Don’t want to move backwards.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Her best chance for marriage is a wealthy older man to whom she can generate some attraction.

    I think she can pull off if she signs a prenup and looks the other way at the older rich man “indiscretions” she can actually get him to sign the dotted line.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I think she can pull off if she signs a prenup and looks the other way at the older rich man “indiscretions” she can actually get him to sign the dotted line.

    We should give her Doug’s contact info. :-P

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike,

    I wouldn’t really care to be with a woman who ‘listened’ to my perspective but didn’t give a shit or concern about it.

    Whoa. Who said anything about not giving a shit about it? My point is that “my” perspective is “mine.” It’s not a “male” perspective; it’s Jesus Mahoney’s perspective. I don’t think you should ever settle for a woman who doesn’t give a shit about MuffManMike’s perspective.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    I agree that women who like assholes hate themselves. That’s why I think men shouldn’t stress over not scoring with them.

  • deti

    Jesus M:

    “The male perspective thing is bullshit anyway. The fact that we’re having this debate at all is proof of that.”

    That explains a lot. This isn’t an attack, I’m just sussing out your take on things so I can make sense of your comments here.

    Your approach is that if something no longer affects Jesus Mahoney, it no longer exists. If it no longer affects Jesus Mahoney, it used to be a societal problem but isn’t anymore. Or if Jesus Mahoney cannot see it, it does not exist. Or if Jesus Mahoney believes the evidence does not support the existence of a problem, then it is not a problem.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    deti,

    No. That’s a strange interpretation of what I said. My perspective is that I want a woman who understands me as an individual, not as a part of MEN WRIT LARGE. Because obviously, each individual man has a different perspective.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    And that’s why I think women need an attitude overhaul. The difference in our opinions, I think, is that you don’t seem to think girls who like assholes are as common as I think they are. I don’t know if that’s because you hang out with a lot of girls and they’re great people, or if it’s because you’ve been out of college for awhile and aren’t around girls that much, or what. But I can tell you that as a whole, women are going for assholes. I feel very certain.

    And if that’s true, it’s also true that the non-assholes aren’t scoring at all, for the most part. So there are two options: become an asshole, or remain celibate.

    Or the women can get their shit together.

  • deti

    Susan @ 286: I hope you’re right.

  • MuffManMike

    @Susan

    At 22-23, these girls have experienced all the partying and drinking they could handle since they got to college at 18, and they want to stop. They’re sick of it – they don’t even go to bars anymore. Their male peers have also stopped partying and drinking so much. I think the Millennials are going to reject Gen X’s path.

    To quote the Angry Video Game Nerd wrt to Godzilla tournament fighters.

    “God damn it, I was born too fucking early! “

  • deti

    OK, Jesus M. I don’t agree that my interpretation is strange, but whatever.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    At 22-23, these girls have experienced all the partying and drinking they could handle since they got to college at 18, and they want to stop. They’re sick of it – they don’t even go to bars anymore. Their male peers have also stopped partying and drinking so much. I think the Millennials are going to reject Gen X’s path.

    I hope so, Susan. That’s not what I’m seeing in grad school.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      I hope so, Susan. That’s not what I’m seeing in grad school.

      I think school perpetuates the undergrad behaviors. I’ve had several readers say that law school makes college hookup culture look like a breeze, and I have received a disproportionate number of emails from law school students. It’s when one gets out of school, and is living and working independently, that behaviors change (hopefully). It’s a new stage in life, and from what I can see, certainly among the friends of my own kids, they shed a lot of their childish ways.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    Most of the women I know socially are ones that my friends are dating. My friends aren’t assholes, ergo…

    If women are mostly going for assholes, then men should hold out for a good one. And spit some asshole game if they want to get laid.

    Or not. It’s up to them.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Most of the women I know socially are ones that my friends are dating.

    Selection bias, my friend. I’d wager the single girls my age are not the girls your friends are dating…

  • deti

    I calls ‘em like I sees ‘em.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      I calls ‘em like I sees ‘em.

      I have a question for you. I have noticed a very pronounced change in your commentary in the time you’ve been around the manosphere. For lack of a better word, it’s become much more hardened, and I detect a lot more anger. I am not sure why your anger has increased over time – I’m wondering if it’s what you’re seeing IRL or the company you keep online. I get it about swallowing the red pill, but I would think it would be worst at first, and the anger would dissipate somewhat over time. Or is this like the seven stages of grief?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    You’re 23? Some of them are, but not all. But they’re into artistic types. Most of my college friends are writers and artists. My friends from high school are more of a mixed breed, but few of them are “assholes.”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I calls ‘em like I sees ‘em.

    That was in response to me? I’m not surprised you see it that way, deti. I think your vision is extremely skewed.

  • deti

    Whatever, Jesus M.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Whatever, Jesus M.

    I do. I mean that with the utmost respect. Your vision is way too clouded by your bitterness. It’s like your ego is in protective mode all the time.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    A few weeks ago an old regular e-mailed me saying she feels the guys at HUS would throw her into the “non-quality” category if she continued posting here, so she’s either lurking or decided to head out.

    That makes me so sad! Truly. Sigh. I worry about this a lot, and I’m sorry she feels judged. There are men here who appear to wish that vaginas could be detached from women entirely. I suppose it’s bitterness, anger, disappointment, fear, and more, and perhaps it’s justified. But it’s also toxic, it further poisons the SMP.

    Yea, that sucks. You know who I miss? Jamie. I liked her.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yea, that sucks. You know who I miss? Jamie. I liked her.

      Me too! She pops in occasionally, but not often. SayWhaat is away in India for two weeks, if anyone thought it was her.

  • Jackie

    @Susan & Olive
    “That makes me so sad! Truly. Sigh. I worry about this a lot, and I’m sorry she feels judged. There are men here who appear to wish that vaginas could be detached from women entirely. I suppose it’s bitterness, anger, disappointment, fear, and more, and perhaps it’s justified. But it’s also toxic, it further poisons the SMP.”

    ITA (I Totally Agree). Those girls are the ones who need to be posting here the most, maybe. It’s so much better to work things out, even if only posting anonymously, than to keep it all inside and feel bad about yourself.

    I would way rather have someone interact and learn than feel that they are somehow “unworthy.” Guy or girl, doesn’t matter. We’re all in this together, right? :)

  • WarmWoman

    “few weeks ago an old regular e-mailed me saying she feels the guys at HUS would throw her into the “non-quality” category if she continued posting here, so she’s either lurking or decided to head out”

    This is a dating/relationship blog, so it’s bound to attract people that are bitter or frustrated with their love lives. I also don’t think it’s an excuse to make people feel devalued in the dating/marriage market.

    Susan-The same thing applies to women that say “it’s hard to find a good man.” If you slow down in the world and take the time to appreciate any random man’s act of kindness, you will see that there are a lot of good men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @WarmWoman

      Susan-The same thing applies to women that say “it’s hard to find a good man.” If you slow down in the world and take the time to appreciate any random man’s act of kindness, you will see that there are a lot of good men.

      Yes, I agree. It’s long been my contention that the 80/20 rule applies to both sexes. There’s a hardcore 20% in both sexes having a lot of casual sex. And the other 80% is invisible to one another.

  • deti

    And I mean this with the utmost respect, Jesus M. Your comments make it pretty clear that my interpretation of your comments is correct, at least as I see it. It’s neither good nor bad. Just my opinion and my assessment. I find your comments interesting, if from a somewhat self-limited perspective.

  • MuffManMike

    Jesus, i don’t think someone responding to your claim that “The male perspective thing is bullshit anyway.” particularly, does not a skewed vision make.

    There is a male perspective, and it matters, even if it doesn’t affect you as an individual.

  • Jackie

    @Flavia (#240)

    “Looks are part of it, although not everything (although to be perfectly honest we would have had a “talk” about the gut).”

    Flavia, are you saying that if the guy wasn’t cutting it (overweight), looks-wise, you would talk to him? What would that discussion look like, for you? Thanks :)

  • Jackie

    @WW (#308)

    “Susan-The same thing applies to women that say “it’s hard to find a good man.” If you slow down in the world and take the time to appreciate any random man’s act of kindness, you will see that there are a lot of good men.”

    This is very wise, WW. Sometimes I think we’re blind to the beauty that surrounds us– in nature, things, animals and people.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    MuffMan,

    I’m a male… So if it’s not my perspective, then it’s not “the” male perspective. I’m not invalidating your perspective at all. I’m just saying that it’s not one shared by all men.

    So… in terms of my relationship, I care that my gf will listen to and respect my perspective “as a man,” but am not concerned with her opinions about something a bunch of other men have decided to call “the” male perspective.

  • deti

    You know, Susan, I get frustrated from what I see IRL and the talk of what I see on these boards, here and elsewhere. My comment at 248 above sets out what I think and believe, really. That’s what I’m about. I’m frightened and braced at what I’m seeing and hearing. It’s not getting better.

    Maybe I’m spending too much time around here and need to take a break. Maybe I’m spending too much time trying to convince the world that I’m right. Maybe I just need to say what I have to say and leave it at that. Maybe it is just that I like to write and can do it with an acerbic style that reflects how my perspective has changed.

    Your point is well taken. Guess I should lurk for a bit. Bye now.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      Your point is well taken. Guess I should lurk for a bit. Bye now.

      I’m sorry I offended you, I didn’t mean to chase you away. I was genuinely curious, and I wondered about the shift in your views. I’ve noticed it in others lately too – including a couple of male bloggers. The change has been dramatic – a real hardening of views, and a more adversarial stance toward the other sex. Maybe I’ve got it wrong. Again, apologies.

  • MuffManMike

    Susan 304

    I am certain that you are correct. I’m tired of arguing the point, though. No amount of discussion here will alter the reality. Men who assume there are no good women are unlikely to ever find one.

    Im not making the claim there are no good women. I’m directly challenging any claims that the ratio of good vs. broken women is currently in favor of the former over the latter.

    I can be ENTIRELY WRONG in this supposition. But i suspect as more time goes by, with more ‘manosphere’ blogs popping up, and more GAME becomes mainstream and abused against women by bitter men who feel like going tit for tat, and the more men GTOW, and more articles about where all the good men at and shaming, etc…

    ie. this wouldn’t be happening if there were more good vs. broken.

    As GAME corrects broken men, it will be incumbent upon women to figure out fast how to ‘fix’ themselves, or be prepared to reap the whirlwind.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    There is an analogy, posited by MGTOWs before me. Let’s say I put a box of hand grenades in front of you. They all look exactly the same.

    Now, a couple of the grenades are duds. They will not explode after you pull the pin. They’re mixed in.

    What I’d like you to do is pick up a grenade at random, pull the pin, and hold it in your hand.

    You don’t want to? Why not?

    It might explode, you say? Well…not all hand grenades are like that. NAHGALT! Hand-grenade hater!

    So women are like hand grenades, they blow after you pull out your pin?

    But you’re doing a bad job of showing yourselves (especially with this “Well I LOVE my single life so there!” stuff).

    What ladies are you talking to? None of the ladies here have spewed such stuff….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But you’re doing a bad job of showing yourselves (especially with this “Well I LOVE my single life so there!” stuff).

      What ladies are you talking to? None of the ladies here have spewed such stuff….

      This is an example of how people feel unfairly judged. I assume Chris talking to women as a whole, not to the women here. Or perhaps the women here are guilty by association, I don’t know. But I think both sexes tend to generalize in their frustration, and it can come across as personal criticism to readers here.

  • WarmWoman

    @Jackie

    Americans are in such a hurry (I’m guilty of this) that we forget to notice the “good around us”. Even when it comes to strangers, I do find that the everyday man is willing to help out and be sweet. Or maybe they’re just raised to have good manners. ;)

    If you want a man to be nice to you, give him the opportunity to do so!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @WW

      If you want a man to be nice to you, give him the opportunity to do so!

      Brilliant! +1

  • Jackie

    @JM

    “‘Why “pathetic”?’

    Idk. Cougars always seem to be desperately clutching at fading youth”

    Interestingly, I have seen it in married women as well. “Pathetic” for me means you have to go full-on Havisham. :) Even then, I felt more sorry/scared of Miss H, than contemptuous.

  • MuffManMike

    Susan/Olive/Jackie

    “That makes me so sad! Truly. Sigh. I worry about this a lot, and I’m sorry she feels judged. There are men here who appear to wish that vaginas could be detached from women entirely. I suppose it’s bitterness, anger, disappointment, fear, and more, and perhaps it’s justified. But it’s also toxic, it further poisons the SMP.”

    I’m sorry she feels judged, nature of the beast. But as you said yourself Susan, if women took it upon themselves to shame and police themselves, it wouldn’t be left up to naive women listening to feminists about what men should accept vs. what men will actually accept.

    Sometimes learning the truth sucks. It sucked when i learned my wife was no longer in love with me because my betaness made her lose both love and attraction for me. No woman ever did me a favor by saying ‘just be nice, be yourself’. Waking up from lies hurts. This girl will have to deal with her ‘red pill’ as we guys did.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jackie,

    I feel sorry for them also. When I say “pathetic”, I mean that they evoke my sympathy.

  • Jackie

    @WW (#321)

    Co-signed :)

    Y’know, it’s really interesting: This week I have been SO sick, for probably the first time in 5+ years. Or more! It’s forced me to slow down, which has actually been kind of awesome. I just watched the sun set yesterday. The whole thing. Just laying down, looking out the window, with my faithful pets chilling on the bed.

    And I was like, WOW, this miraculous, totally beautiful thing. And it happens *every day*! And you can even tell when it’s going to happen to the minute. My cat hopped up next to me, to keep my company, and I was just marveling at the soft fur and purrs. What it when they give us unconditional love. And this is just one sunset, one little cat. How can we be surrounded by all this goodness and not see it?

    This of course may be the fever talking! ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      Your positive and generous energy during a week when you’ve been sick is much appreciated. You really set an example here. I know I have a hard time being as bitchy when you’re in the thread. :)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I am certain that you are correct. I’m tired of arguing the point, though. No amount of discussion here will alter the reality. Men who assume there are no good women are unlikely to ever find one.

    I’m all for everyone airing their opinions, but I feel like you at least need to keep pushing back on this if you don’t want to alienate your intended audience.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      I feel like you at least need to keep pushing back on this if you don’t want to alienate your intended audience.

      I know. I do feel that responsibility. That’s why sometimes I go to the mat on an issue. If I disagree with the commentary on my blog, I need to say so. Heck, I can even imagine being held responsible for it if I didn’t refute it.

  • Jackie

    @JM

    Ohhh, I see. More like pathos. Thanks for the clarification :)

  • Just1X

    @Chris_in_CA @315

    very nicely put, sadly JM misses the point spectacularly

    “So women are like hand grenades, they blow after you pull out your pin?”

    that’s your take-away from his comment? Or did you forget the smiley? I really think his comment deserves a re-read (clearly YMMV)

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    “So women are like hand grenades, they blow after you pull out your pin?”

    In the same way they are newspapers.

  • Jackie

    @JM
    PS: That reminds me, have you played the Beethoven “Pathetique” sonata? Because I remember reading the music and thinking at the time, How could this ever be called “pathetic”? ;)

  • Anna

    @ MuffManMike
    When a girl tells you to “be nice”, she means don’t be an asshole. Don’t lie, cheat or put her down.
    Of course making yourself slightly unavailable works, but that is not the opposite of “be nice”. The opposite is to be mean. Girls like men with options whom ultimately choose them, there are just SO many guys who find it difficult to create a balance there. I’ve had guys do some obvious ‘game’ strategies with me, like not calling and then come back after 2 months asking why I didn’t say anything. The key is to improve to be the kind of guy with a busy schedule, rich social life, a lot of hobbies and options with girls who prevent them from obsessing or becoming clingy.
    Calling 24 hours after you got a girls number WORKS if you’ve proven to be a man with options. Men with obvious 3 day rules piss me off. I am genuinely not looking for assholes and I know plenty of girls who aren’t, they just find there to be a poor selection between the clingy, desperate guys and the assholes/pretending-to-be-assholes.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    “Looks are part of it, although not everything (although to be perfectly honest we would have had a “talk” about the gut).”

    “Flavia, are you saying that if the guy wasn’t cutting it (overweight), looks-wise, you would talk to him? What would that discussion look like, for you? Thanks ”

    I am not sure how I would have brought it up, but I would have definitely said something. Maybe pat him on the stomach sweetly and say…

    “This. This has to go.” lol (not really joking, though).

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Just,

    Comparing women to hand grenades was ridiculous. As if only a few of the “duds” were harmless. What I took away from Chris’ comment was that he has a shitty and warped view of women.

    But yes, I did forget the smiley.

    :P

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jackie,

    I love Beethoven. Yes, I’ve played his Pathetique. I used to think the same thing when I first encountered it, too. lol

  • MuffManMike

    +1 @Chris_in_CA @315

    I’ve never heard the MGTOW grenade parable. Committing to memory. It describes what i’ve felt for so long and never knew how to put it in words.

    Finding good women is like playing Russian Roulette. Today’s SMP and young woman GenX mindset means the gun has 5 of 6 chambers loaded.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @MMM

      Finding good women is like playing Russian Roulette. Today’s SMP and young woman GenX mindset means the gun has 5 of 6 chambers loaded.

      Oy. This is a bit much. I understand that you are very discouraged, I do. I get it. But please – this kind of extrapolation – this wholesale condemnation of a whole generation of women – it’s not OK. I can’t support it. There are other blogs where this kind of statement will make you a star. I don’t include them on my Blogroll, but I’m sure you can figure out where they are if you want to.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    In the same way they are newspapers.

    lol

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ana,

    She lost Doqsquat for good, it seems, which is a real shame. I wonder why.

  • MuffManMike

    Anna /aka Amanda Marcotte 331

    Yes, i wish you were there 20 years ago to teach me to ‘just be more attractive’.

    poor selection between the clingy, desperate guys and the assholes/pretending-to-be-assholes.

    Clingy desperate guys who are suffering from starvation deprivation. Oh you poor pathetic hungry man, so thin, so frail so.. DON’T TOUCH MY CAKE.

    Pretending to be assholes.. hmmm wonder where they got the idea that pretending to be an asshole helps get you laid? ohhh, thats why.

    The opposite is to be mean. Girls like men with options whom ultimately choose them, there are just SO many guys who find it difficult to create a balance there.

    Perhaps the problem isn’t the difficulty of finding that balance… perhaps the problem lies with that being a requirement in the first place. You want guys with ‘options’.. you better really bring something to the table beside you vagina… or stop asking for ‘balance’. I hate this meme. He’s got to be this and that and a little of this and a sprinkle of that and get the mix just right or the cake will fold. Only in the female mind…

  • Just1X

    @JM

    “Comparing women to hand grenades was ridiculous. As if only a few of the “duds” were harmless. What I took away from Chris’ comment was that he has a shitty and warped view of women.

    But yes, I did forget the smiley. ” <— ah, cool. thanks for the clarification.

    The handgrenade thing works just as well with 80% good (duds) and 20% bad ones, if it's the numbers you're quibbling with. I'd heard it before, but MMM is hearing it for the first time and 'getting it'.

    Put what numbers in you like, Chris' comment is a pretty good explanation of the "generic man's" view.

  • Just1X

    Cappy Cap wrote a post on WGTOW (spawned by the illustrious Susan Walsh, blessings be upon her) which is well worth a read, Susan’s response is too (on his blog)

    http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2012/02/mgtow-vs-wgtow.html

    the motherload of the discussion is here, but Cappy makes a few good points

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      Thanks for the plug to the Captain’s post. I like him.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Anacaona +1

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Just,

    It’s not so much the numbers themselves, but when the actual metaphor suggests. Calling women hand grenades doesn’t in any way suggest the 80% good 20% bad ratio.

    Every choice we make in life can be a pin pulled from a grenade if we’re going to look at it that way. You can take a shower and slip and break your neck….

    The metaphor implies that women are overall bad.

  • Anna

    @MuffManMike
    Amanda Marcotte? How is anything I’ve said feminist? I am not a feminist whatsoever. It’s become a popular derogatory term on this site. “You have standards for men – feminist!”.
    Being balanced doesn’t mean that you need to “have it all”. It means you are none of the extremes.
    I treat a boyfriend very well and I expect something in return.
    If I regularly went to bed with assholes, it would be unreasonable for me to stop asking men to behave that way. But I don’t.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    If I regularly went to bed with assholes, it would be unreasonable for me to stop asking men to behave that way. But I don’t.

    She does it as infrequently as she can manage…. Just kidding.

    You know, unless that’s true.

    No, I’m kidding.

    ….

  • Just1X

    “The metaphor implies that women are overall bad.”

    no, just “maybe” that marrying a grenade with 20% chance of being live sucks as a gamble.

    That is not the same thing at all.

    Marry someone who decides that 10 years down the line EPLs / takes the house, kids and alimoney. Maybe a DV allegation to smooth the wheels and get legal aid. Oh and rips your heart out just because she’s unhaaaaapy…Now THAT’S a GRENADE.

    The fact that you have an 80% of getting a dud (as in a good woman) grenade doesn’t help that much (YMMV clearly).

    I think (and M3 too) (and Chris who wrote it) that it’s a good illustration for women why men’s wish to marry may be lacking. Isn’t the site at least somewhat about seeing the other point of view?

    I know it may sound disingenuous, but I sympathise with what the women here say about the SMP (wait too long => frigid, don’t wait => slut) – tricky, seriously, that’s a legitimate quandry.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Just,

    I support Chris’ right to speak his mind. Yea, that’s what the site is about. At least, that’s what I enjoy about it. But if I find something foolish, then I support my right to say so, also.

    If that was his intent, then okay, fair enough. I just think the grenade metaphor says much more than that.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    no, just “maybe” that marrying a grenade with 20% chance of being live sucks as a gamble.

    What metrics are we using to set the “bad” number at 20%?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    The random metric.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Just,

    Fwiw, we haven’t spoken much, but you seem level-headed, fair, and rational.

    Those are good things.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    I just think the grenade metaphor says much more than that.

    It says women are cheap and charge different prices? or maybe that they explode with the full truth after you´ve been engaged for months?

    Seriously.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    No. It says that most women are going to explode.

  • Anna

    Susan, I really do get the girl who stopped posting because she couldn’t take the guys on here anymore. They’re doing an excellent job labeling women as low quality and trying to convince the rest they are lower quality than they think.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    No. It says that most women are going to explode.

    His argument was about NAWALT, and why it´s not more comforting unless you can clearly differentiate the good from the bad ones.

    You should relate.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    I do relate to that. I just don’t think the metaphor of the hand grenade was all that good.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    I just looked at the picture that accompanies this article! Hahaha! ;)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    If that was in response to my comment, then chill. You said you don’t “regularly” go to bed with assholes. If you go to bed with assholes even irregularly, then you’re being hypocritical telling any guy not to be an asshole. That’s all I was trying to convey.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    granade = the one changing prices / or the one cheating / or the one who will marry you for the wrong reasons. Metaphor solved.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    Yea, I know. I “get” it. I just think that using that metaphor conveys the wrong message.

  • Emily

    I think there’s a bit of a generation gap that also confuses the discussion a bit.

    Many of the girls are in their early 20s and trying to get boyfriends, whereas many of the guys are in their 30s and moving on from divorce.

    Both groups have insightful things to say, but I think this often muddles the dialogue.

    I’d be curious to know in what ways the SMP has changed or stayed the same over the past 10 years or so.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Emily

      Many of the girls are in their early 20s and trying to get boyfriends, whereas many of the guys are in their 30s and moving on from divorce.

      It’s true. There are actually quite a few guys in their early 20s too, but they don’t dominate. Unfortunately, I think the 30-something guys get frustrated with the naivete of the young women, and the young women are horrified by some of the negative emotion they see coming from the men.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus, what´s the wrong message?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    On the subject of people not commenting anymore: not everybody has the time to read hundreds of comments on each thread, and some of us are more long-winded than others. I tend to participate less on weekends as well, and more on weekdays when I have downtime at work.

    Some people are busier than others, and life happens.

  • Emily

    (Yay! I can post again! :D )

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    Think about it. If anything less than 99% of actual grenades are “duds”, then the military is getting ripped off by its suppliers. When I think of grenade duds, I think “rarity.” I think that more than 1% of women are non-explosive.

  • Anna

    @ Jesus
    No, I don’t go to bed with assholes even irregularly. I had an incident with a guy who turned out bad 2 years ago at 19, and that’s that. I’m not sure if you’re allowed to learn something through life, I believe according to HUS men, it’ll make me a low quality woman for life.
    And no, there is no reason to “chill”. That’s just what you say when you think you can make your own judgments and hate it when people respond to it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m not sure if you’re allowed to learn something through life, I believe according to HUS men, it’ll make me a low quality woman for life.

      The women are speaking up.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anna,

    No. “Chill” is what you say when someone overreacts. You overreacted to what I said, and I said “chill.”

    An incident with a guy who turned out bad at 19 isn’t bad, Anna. But when you say “regularly” it sounds like you mean you do it occasionally.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Think about it. If anything less than 99% of actual grenades are “duds”, then the military is getting ripped off by its suppliers. When I think of grenade duds, I think “rarity.” I think that more than 1% of women are non-explosive.

    Meant to say if less than 99% were “live.”

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    How many newspapers have different pricing points? none? so no women change their prices ever either. Hum.

  • Just1X

    @JM

    I think grenade adds humour, but I’m English; we have a weirdness track record in that area – a deserved one in my case.

    The English bit is probably linked to our lack of conversation; timezones.

    Also, you are still younger than when I got married, are from the arts side (I’m STEM 100%) – We have different view points. Entirely legitimately so.

    “Fwiw, we haven’t spoken much, but you seem level-headed, fair, and rational.

    Those are good things.”

    Now that is appreciated, really. I wish I could say it was entirely true, I try to be on best behaviour here…(stop laughing at the back). See what I mean about the humour?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      I can honestly say that Dalrockgate was worth it because you stopped lurking and started commenting. I really enjoy hearing your viewpoint, and you have a lovely way of communicating it without being abrasive. I think you should be voted Mr. MRA Congeniality. :)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    That’s about the price discrimination metaphor I wrote about a while back?

    True, you won’t find people selling the NY Times for a quarter.

    I took Chris to mean that the vast majority of women were “live” grenades. That’s what it sounded like to me.

    You’re cool with that?

  • MuffManMike

    ” Yohami,

    No. It says that most women are going to explode.”

    No, it means every new woman you meet is a possible gamble and you will never know based on outward appearances.

    I didn’t think it was that hard to grasp. This wasn’t a ‘one hand clapping’ moment. Sometimes a metaphor is just a metaphor.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    Yes Im just comparing to your own views back then.

    I took Chris to mean that the vast majority of women were “live” grenades.

    So the majority of women change their pricepoints? are you a woman hater too?

    Im bored with the taking sides / adversarial stuff that is going around here lately.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Im bored with the taking sides / adversarial stuff that is going around here lately.

      Thank you. There are so many smart people here, with so many great things to say. The wisdom of Yohami. Let’s stop fighting with each other. We need some blogging version of makeup sex.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    MuffManMike,

    I didn’t think it was that hard to grasp.

    It isnt.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    Did I claim that the majority of them did? I don’t recall.

    I’m bored with taking sides, too. Did you think I was taking someone’s side? Adversarial at times, perhaps. If I disagree with someone, I come out and disagree. I get bored with you arguing with Sue most of the time. You know what I do? Ignore it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    I’m glad you liked the metaphor. Jot it down and write a song about it for your herd.

    I didn’t care for it.

  • MuffManMike

    Anna,

    “I’m not sure if you’re allowed to learn something through life, I believe according to HUS men, it’ll make me a low quality woman for life.”

    Of course you’re allowed to learn. Everyone makes mistakes. It’s the ones who know they’re making mistakes and repeat them over and over with the promise of being good next time i have issue with. Or worse yet, making mistakes full well knowing it and enjoying it nonetheless expecting salvation at a later date.

    You’re quality will be determined on an individual basis, everyone has a different threshold, value system, viewpoint. I’m sure you’d be a slut in some far away asian land with repressive religious leanings. You are not a slut in my eyes based on what you wrote. What others think is up to them. You are free to react accordingly.

    Apologies for the Marcotte comment. I’m just tired and cranky. I just hate hearing variant versions of the ‘just be more attractive’ line and the whole proper balance thing. Manage risk. Don’t want to be with an asshole? Choose a guy with ‘less options’ unless you and him are of similar smv.

  • John G

    I like what Emily at #360 had to say. It’s true. Also to Just1X’s point, there’s an international flavor too. Still fun to read all the comments.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    Yes, it looks as taking sides, eg, lets make fun of this guys by misrepresenting their argument so it looks more stupid.

    That´s the same reason I fought Susan. It served no point.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Tom,

    for the same reason you keep fucking whores? because I can?

    Jeez.

  • Just1X

    @Emily

    “I’d be curious to know in what ways the SMP has changed or stayed the same over the past 10 years or so.”

    I’m even more anci…maturer than 30s. Though not as mature as Mr Munson, but who can say that they are? (sorry, damn sense of humour)

    I gather that I’m a Gen-X’er. I’d say that “Kids these days” have a far greater range of ways to amuse themselves than I ever did (computers came in in my mid teens – early 80s). So you’re lucky in that respect, BUT I read some comments by millenials last night (would prefer not to link – no, not a Dalrock thing) that called themselves the divorce generation. Their description of the current SMP was horrifying (hook ups / teen pregs / bj at school).

    I’d say that I was one of the last years of kids that went through (UK) school without serious cliques and must-have fashion (flaired jeans / tight jeans. expensive trainers / no mobiles obviously).

    As a STEMmer I wouldn’t say that I was very attuned to the popular kids, but it really wasn’t such a big deal (popular just meant popular, not-popular didn’t mean social pariah).

    My guess at the problem today is that both boys and girls prize being fashionable and ‘popular’, MUST follow fashion, MUST have a bf / gf, MUST have latest phone. Younger people care TOO MUCH what other people think of them (IMHO).

    More GTOW would reduce their stress (IMHO) – why do so many people care WTF celebutards ‘think’ about anything? Jersey Shore, Kardasians, Hiltons – these are repulsive examples of emo-drama out of control (IMHO)

    The Alpha / Beta, Hypergamy, Game, ‘in-crowd’ vs pariah, emo / goth / sporty girl / skater etc (yeah, I’m old and out of touch) thing seems to be way out of control and seriously seems to be hurting just about everybody.

    That’s my take on the changes between ‘my time’ and ‘yours’

    Oh, and back to my generation (the drawbacks)
    I see a little Game as a great idea. Damn do I wish I’d learned some 25-30 years ago, my life would have been changed completely – this is the huge problem MY generation had. Being told to pedestalise and “Just be yourself”, “She will appreciate your niceness” etc. BULLSHIT! But a little game…yeah (never would have been a PUA).

    Oh to re-live life (but not sure that I’d want to do teenage now)

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    I’m glad you liked the metaphor. Jot it down and write a song about it for your herd.

    I didn’t care for it.

    Etc.

  • Emily

    I should probably clarify that I still really like reading what the male commenters have to say. But it would be nice to have some more college-aged male regulars around. I think that would add some worthwhile perspective. (Where have all the young guys gooooooooooooooooone! :P)

  • Just1X

    Further to ‘my’ generation’s issues,

    MMM
    “I just hate hearing variant versions of the ‘just be more attractive’ line and the whole proper balance thing. Manage risk. Don’t want to be with an asshole? Choose a guy with ‘less options’ unless you and him are of similar smv.”

    Yeah, this is what the so-cons/trad-cons now aim at ‘us’. As opposed to the bullshit mainlining of “pedestalise and “Just be yourself”, “She will appreciate your niceness” etc” that I spoke of earlier.

  • Ramble

    There are men here who appear to wish that vaginas could be detached from women entirely.

    This is something I see in the STEM and Economics fields all the time. Guys looking for Guys-with-Tits.

    They like hanging out with guys and find so many girls to either inscrutable, or flaky, or annoying or all of the above and want them to be more like guys (i.e. logical, overt, etc.), but with tits.

  • Just1X

    “(Where have all the young guys gooooooooooooooooone! )”

    oh don’t you start!

    LMAO

    but you’re right, it would be interesting to hear from them. That bunch might have enough time to sort out the SMP and marriage in time to have kids within families. Not my thing, but I believe it’s the way you have stable societies.*

    *Note that I’m not saying SAHM / return to the Cleavers or the Brady Bunch. Just two parents in a stable relationship.

  • Emily

    Quick question: what was the guy/girl ratio at colleges ten years ago? I’ll bet that has a *massive* influence on the SMP.

  • Mike M.

    Just1X:

    You and me both :-) I think we’re about the same age.

  • Just1X

    @Emily

    FWIW in the UK 25 years ago…not sure that it was that different.

    STEM, if that continues to mean anything, is always likely to be male majority. Sociology etc the reverse. Biology was a ‘healthy’ mix AFAIR. Even then I had sociological friends that should have read Cappy Cap’s “Worthless” guide to degrees (worthless financially). But then we had our tuition paid and grants to live off. That’s very different now.

  • Just1X

    Mike M,

    yeah, somethings were the same for men all over the anglosphere I reckon (suckers that we were – or I was).

    I did the married -> divorce no kids bit that I think you did. I suspect that there are a few other parallels(?):

    Discovered Game (Roissy, too late) and had a huge “So that’s what’s wrong, I was lied to all the way through my life – bollocks”.

    Went through the manosphere (still go).

    Choked down the red pill – got angry (never managed generalised woman hater, always NAWALT).

    Chilled out thinking that men vs women was very interesting, but not personally tempted to go PUA.

    Saw the xmas bust up and thought I’d see what’s up (had visited HUS before, just couldn’t face posts with 1-2000 comments on a regular basis). Posted a couple of plain spoken questions about the cause of the bust-up, got plain spoken replies (which I had no problem with. content or style), thought I’d stick around.

    As Susan said recently, this site appears fairly unique in it’s mix of people. Not sure that it plays well with getting work done though… :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      Are you MGTOW? Because I think you are very attractive, your gravatar notwithstanding. Might want to think about getting out there if you’re not already.

  • Emily

    @ Just1X

    Yeah, I’m just toying with the idea that the shifting sex ratio at colleges might be having a huge influence on this SMP. At most universities, it’s about 40:60 for the male/female ratio. So even in a perfect world where people did practice assortative mating, there still aren’t enough educated guys to go around. Although STEM fields still have more guys, I’ve read that this gap is getting smaller. And even if there are more guys in engineering, there are more than enough Liberal Arts girls on campus to chose from.

    I could be wrong, but I think this might be why we don’t see as many frustrated 20-something guys around here. Or maybe they’re all over at Roissy. I dunno… But sometimes I do wonder if we’re actually all debating over two different SMPs.

  • Wudang

    Susan:

    “I get it about swallowing the red pill, but I would think it would be worst at first, and the anger would dissipate somewhat over time. Or is this like the seven stages of grief?”

    For me it ges up and down and back and frth between getting pissed of and acepting things through perspective but the peaks of anger increases over time as I discover things that are worse and worse. For example when I found the study that said 42% of women said they would lie to their husband about taking the pill in order to get pregant when he did not want children . For me it is incromprehensible to have a relationship with a woman who would do that but if 42% say they would even when they are not yet in a situation where they are feeling the pressure imagine how many would once they were in such a situation. I find it very difficult to be truly trusting of a woman in a relationship after reading that. When I tried to debate the morality of doing this with women online there were zero sympathy. No one gave a damn or could even contemplate that making the deceison that leads to a man being tied for life practically, emotionally and financially and having to live it compeltely differently than he himself wanted just because of what you want was much of a problem at all. Seeing this lack of reaction and the women online putting all the blame for the women deceiving their husbands on the husband was extremely disillusioning and depressing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang

      When I tried to debate the morality of doing this with women online there were zero sympathy.

      Not here, right? For the record, I agree with you. That’s unconscionable behavior. Take each study with a grain of salt, though.

  • Just1X

    @Emily,

    I can’t link to what the millenials were saying, but it sounded like there was a chasm between what they said their reality was and what ‘you’ say here. I don’t doubt the sincerity of either ‘side’, but I can’t reconcile them.

    If what they describe is the majority reality, then society is shagged because males and females are not going to be able to come to a deal. We’re just waiting for someone to flush the toilet.

    If ‘you’ are the people describing the reality of the majority, things are bad enough. Slut (live grenade) vs Potential Wife (dud grenade). Give it up in 3 dates or less vs Frigid, dump and move on. But at least there’s hope, it’s down to women really, they define the SMP. Doesn’t need many sluts to really hurt the interests of the good ‘uns, and society needs the Good ‘uns. (And address equality under the law – but that’s a bit of a hot topic for here, trust me on that)

  • Ramble

    Emily, I am only a little bit older, but few 19-22 year old guys are interested in debating “relationships”.

    That age group is hanging out at YouTube and 4Chan.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Emily, I am only a little bit older, but few 19-22 year old guys are interested in debating “relationships”.

      Really? You seem very mature and experienced. I had you pegged at 35-40.

  • Ramble

    Wudang, I have had multiple girls, some of them with impressive STEM educations, agree heartily with the idea that if a man gets cuckholded into raising a child that is not biologically his, that he should still be legally obligated to provide for the child. And, if he didn’t want to…Holy shit.

    Oh, and they barely registered any negative thoughts towards the cuckholding girl.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    Yes, it looks as taking sides, eg, lets make fun of this guys by misrepresenting their argument so it looks more stupid.

    If I think something’s ridiculous, I say so. I can’t say if it’s the same between you and Sue, because I don’t read those comments.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    Do make your point, what is ridiculous about it?

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Sorry I had to duck out for a bit, but I did want to come back to this discussion, especially since it looks like I was the bringer of bad news (sorry Susan :-( ).

    I do want to say that I think we’ve fallen down the black hole of binary thinking at HUS lately. There are “good women” and “bad women,” just as there are “good men” and “bad men.” No one likes to be told they aren’t good for a relationship… in my experience, it’s more productive to focus on how someone can improve, not on where they screwed up.

    People might be surprised to hear me say this, but I don’t actually champion slut-shaming. I also don’t champion alpha/asshole-shaming. I think there are a lot of confused, mixed up people who are trying to figure out how to attract each other in an SMP that, frankly, is in the shitter. It’s not useful to label people and shame the “bad eggs.” It is useful to point people in the right direction and explain how they can improve. We might disagree over the ways in which people can improve, and that’s where we can have productive and interesting discussions. But placing people into “good” and “bad” camps is probably what drives lurkers away.

  • Wudang

    “as to Olive’s saying girls need an attitude overhaul”

    Because of the 42% statistic I strongly believe women need an atitude overhaul. I think it is only by bringing these things more into the open and debating them so that we can get a clear perspective on what is and is not moral behavior and then start using social pressure and shame and social repurcusions to improve behavior and integrity. The common thread in all of this is that these behaviors, both those that impact men and the ones that impact women in women to women relations like Olive writes a lot about, have all been hidden. People have not really been aware of them or tehy have only been partially aware of them without much ability to discuss them in contexts that could improve upon morality. Whenver any type of human behavior is hidden fromt the eyes of society and from consequences for a long time that type of human behavior degenerates to total self interest. That which is not seen and looked at by society at large in practice exist in a state of nature and so morality becomes similar to a state of nature which is none. Imagine if there were zero social repurcusions or consequences for hitting your wife and no one said it was wrong and that persisted over a long period of time. Many more men would do it. Because female behavior is so often indirect and the true nature of the behavior and motives hidden this form of lack of civilizing will more often be the case with women. In the last 50 years the degree to which womens behavior has gone under the radar of society at large has reached heights never before seen in any society because of feminism and all the stuff we talk about all the time in the manosphere. Most traditional societies seem to have quite a lot of understanding of these mechanisms and have ways to regulate them.

  • Just1X

    @Wudang,

    I sympathise. The issues you mention are familiar to me (and boil my piss), there are other ssuch issues.

    I’m mostly MGTOW, but with a preference that society recovers. My recipe for a happy society (YMMV):

    It is not really in your / our power to fix it. Women are the key to driving the SMP (women settling on A man for sex, but without feeling that they’re settling), the SMP drives the MMP (men settling for a reliable source of sex, that if it is reliable, they probably don’t mind about settling).

    Make it unrewarding to be a single mother / divorcee. Not in a punitive way, just that it is not a desirable option. Stabilise marriage.

    Equality under the law. FRA -> woman goes to gaol. Cuckoldry -> no payments by non-father, daddy-state will not be generous to mummy, but the kid will be okay.

    Mandatory paternity tests – YES, that kid is yours

    Male birth control – If you didn’t want that kid, why the hell not take non-hormonal precautions? You pay or…you don’t want to know what ‘or’ is

    Some justice in a-right-to-choose for a man (not sure how. As a taxpayer, I do not want to pay for a kid that the father has refused) — tricky, verrry tricky

    And everyone lives happily ever after…

    Failing that, MGTOW is a huge stress reliever, go get happy and leave those making the problems to pay for the problems. Enjoy your life.

  • Wudang

    “Wudang, I have had multiple girls, some of them with impressive STEM educations, agree heartily with the idea that if a man gets cuckholded into raising a child that is not biologically his, that he should still be legally obligated to provide for the child. And, if he didn’t want to…Holy shit.

    Oh, and they barely registered any negative thoughts towards the cuckholding girl.”

    Yes, thats the problem. I find it totally sick. The cuckolding girl should get a prision sentence if for nothing else for atempting economic fraud. If you can not see this you are not fit to be married to anyone.

    Also imagine what women would think about a man that pinched wholes in the condoms he used with her to get her pregnant against her will. Do you think a lot of women would consider that rape? Or at least FEEL raped by it? A lot of them would but it is exactly the same as they are saying they are perfectly willing to do to the man.

  • Wudang

    ” Cuckoldry -> no payments by non-father, daddy-state will not be generous to mummy, but the kid will be okay.”

    THe problem with this is that teh mother is atempting economic fraud for large sums of money. She should receive the same sentence as anyone else trying to defraud someone else of an equally large sum of money. Otherwise it is the only way people can commit fraud without punishment.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Do make your point, what is ridiculous about it?

    Scroll up. Point made.

  • http://jabootu.net/?p=4714 Pip

    Deti said:

    “Proves my point. You’re a doctor of veterinary medicine. You are highly educated and probably well compensated. Certainly you are not living paycheck to paycheck, I would think. You have eclectic interests including music and riding (probably horses). Equestrianism is a sport reserved for the well off. I’d bet you own at least one horse. That ain’t cheap. You have the time for running and keeping yourself in shape. You have been able to do very, very well for yourself.”

    Wow! I didn’t know my life was so glamorous! I’ll try to remember that when I’m elbow deep into a Hereford’s aft quarters with the baster. Anyway, yes I am an equine vet. So owning a couple horses is cheaper for me. Like an airline crewmember gets to fly for free.

    “The point is, most women will never live the life you do, because they don’t have the drive, the money, the education, the wherewithal or the good fortune.”

    I favor the mission of SW. I also recognize that I’m in a statistical minority in a number of ways (childfree, happy with a long term relationship without marriage, some coin saved, left-handed). Just remember: some people are happy without kids or marriage. Less women then men, perhaps, but we’re around.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Pip

      I favor the mission of SW. I also recognize that I’m in a statistical minority in a number of ways (childfree, happy with a long term relationship without marriage, some coin saved, left-handed). Just remember: some people are happy without kids or marriage. Less women then men, perhaps, but we’re around.

      Thanks. I’ve been thinking about you the last couple of days. I’m pretty certain that if my husband left me, in whatever way, I would never marry again. I don’t think I’d be lonely either. I would feel quite content to live the next 30 years as a single person. So I totally see the appeal of being unencumbered in that way.

  • Just1X

    OMG Wudang,

    are you talking about morality? :0)

    I thought that I was aiming high in getting a working SMP / MMP!

    I utterly agree with you 100%, but don’t see how we get to morality from society as it is now. 50 years of indoctrination with “it’s about what you feel right now”, “your viewpoint is as valid as anyone elses’s”, “disagreement == oppression”, delusional crap like “teh patriarchy” (akin to the Empire in Star Wars), “money is good”, “morals are for schmucks”

    Choose happiness, choose MGTOW (just keep an interested toe in the water)

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Duh. You scroll up.

  • Just1X

    @Wudang,

    if we ever meet, I’ll happily buy you a beer, or three, very happily (Same goes for Mr Munson, Susan and a surprisingly large number of people here, come to think of it)

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    RE: Cuckoldry

    If anything makes me understand the most bitter misogynist it is this. How could anyone even argue this case? Oh yeah, guys don’t have feelings, and if they do, they don’t matter anyway.

    If the woman did it unknowingly I think she should pay the man reparations- something like a reverse child support. If she did it knowingly she should go to jail. Roissy made a good case about cuckoldry being worse than rape. I can’t imagine the emotional torture (aside from the financial pain! Argh!) to realize the child you loved, raised, played catch with, etc was a byproduct of your cheating wife.

    I also think that the accuser should pay reparations to the accused if the lawsuit is deemed frivolous. It is very easy to just trump up false rape/domestic violence/ discrimination etc charges and if you lose, oh well, you still get the satisfaction of having potentially ruined someone financially via lawyer’s fees, or at the very least wasted a shit load of their time.

  • Just1X

    BTW, don’t expect to recognise me IRL by my gravatar…just a little heads up

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Just, you´re not Zoolander?

  • deti

    Anacaona @ 337:

    Thanks for the shout out. But, it looks like my commentary and writing style is not a good fit for this blog. I’m over and out.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Duh. You scroll up.

    No thanks. Get back to when the PMS is over.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jesus,

    Get back to when the PMS is over.

    Now I cant take you seriously.

  • fugitive

    Well I just saw a comment by someone looking for some SMP thoughts by someone in college. I graduated a few years ago but here’s how I see things.

    To start, I’m 24, male, and by most metrics “high value” to women. I am good-looking, very smart, on track for an extremely selective and “alpha” career, and am often the “life of the party” guy. I easily attract women, but I am a serial monogamist and am an excellent boyfriend. Sure this sounds like bragging, and it basically is but it’s true and I don’t say it to impress anyone here (this pseudonym has nothing to do with me anyway, it’s the movie on TV right now), but just because I get the feeling that some male commentators come across as “losers” to female readers and thus their opinions are invalidated in their eyes.

    I was a somewhat late bloomer – had to work through some personal insecurities and didn’t really grow into my own till the latter half of college – so I sympathize easily with the frustrated side of the male perspective. I also want to have a family and kids (my parents married young and had me young, and perhaps because of them I don’t feel I’m too young by any means), so the issue of finding a good person to marry is extremely important to me. I am also a keen observer of people and social interactions, and people readily like me and talk to me so I have a good understanding of male-female dynamics – at least among my crowd.

    Girls my age (and in my social circles) are into their education/career. They generally do not consider entering a serious relationship unless the _perfect_ guy enters their life. Lesser men do not elicit such thoughts. That’s not to say they don’t want to get married and have a family – just that they assume it’ll happen for them in the future (i.e. the perfect guy will come along for them) and in the meantime they will enjoy their 20′s and such, and not worry about that for now.

    While most girls will say they don’t consider themselves “hardcore feminists”, they are generally quite indoctrinated by our society’s constant feminist bent since we were born (not really their fault). When I bring up some of the sex imbalances, sometimes I sound quite misogynistic to them, although they’ll kind of agree with me because they like me. I’m also always amazed at the blindness to the “apex fallacy”, or ideas similar to that, where the majority of other men are actually just invisible to the girls in terms of being dating prospects.

    Meanwhile, guys my age are generally hopelessly beta. It’s not their fault of course. But yeah… there is absolutely the feeling among these guys that they have to supplicate to girls, treat them not as equals but actually superiors, make them feel like goddesses, give gifts, etc. Why? Because they’ve been conditioned to believe that’s how you get girls to notice what a stand-up guy you are and that’s how you avoid society telling you what a chauvinist pig you are. When I crack sexist jokes, there’s definitely a nervousness among these guys (and some mild outrage from the girls, but that’s fun too). I would say the phenomenon of guys “exiting the SMP” by staying home and playing video games or whatever has some truth – what happens is the guy just doesn’t understand why girls aren’t into him, and so he pursues things which do make sense to him and do reward him for putting time/resources into it.

    There are a good number of exceptions to both groups of course. From time to time I do meet girls who actively sympathize with some of the injustices towards males. I’ve found these are generally girls who grew up with alpha-type fathers and brothers. There are also quite a few alpha males in my social circle – although, I think my experience is slightly skewed in this area because of the type of people in my career path. In general though, I have actually found the average beta guys are most desiring of a relationship and trying to figure out how to get one, while the average girls also want a relationship but only with the top 1%, and if they can’t they won’t.

    Anyway that’s all that comes to mind right now. I’m not really into commenting here because I’m a bit argumentative by nature, and there are multiple posters who I can’t really stand and would have to argue with, and I don’t think this accomplishes anything over the internet, so it would be quite a waste of my time and energy. But I think this website is cool because it’s discussing these issues, which is rare; even if many viewpoints are (imo) quite flawed and the blog author is quite hard-headed (sorry), at least awareness is being raised.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @fugitive

      Hard-headed blog author welcomes you and appreciates your thoughtful comment. It’s a great perspective on the SMP.

  • OffTheCuff

    Seeing this lack of reaction and the women online putting all the blame for the women deceiving their husbands on the husband was extremely disillusioning and depressing.

    I hear you. It’s one thing to read feminist blogs and dismiss them as the rantings of unhinged paranoiacs, I can get that. They’re beyond hope and not relevant to me, I don’t know people like that in real life.

    What’s far worse is reading the opinions of average women, churchgoers, housewives, next-door neighbors… people that are very much like the people I DO know, and still seeing how downright mercenary their attitude towards love is.

    That hurts a lot more…

  • Just1X

    Sorry Yohami, no I’m not.

    I was originally “Mr Angry” from “Mystery Men”, as an MRA (of sorts) it seemed the right thing to do; play up to the stereotypes. But the image scared a few people :( (TBH ‘I’ looked a little crazy).

    So, I dialled back a notch (but kept Ben and the grin). I’m considering a change to Burt Reynolds in the Deliverance era (same grin) but with added theme music

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myhnAZFR1po&feature=related

    The music really starts at around 2:25 (great ring tone for those of a certain age)
    that’s ‘me’ @2:59
    Mr Munson @ 2:57 (he may not take this well…break the news gently)

    What d’you reckon?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Just,

    Lol, never had seen Reynolds without the mustache. Good banjos duel.

    Avatar, why not your own picture? just saying.

  • Just1X

    Deliverence is a great film (1972), I just checked and ‘Southern Comfort’ (a similar societal backdrop) that I kind of see as contemporary (that is to say old) was made 9 years later in 1981.

    They’re both recognisable genres, but much less extreme than Wrong Turn / Hills have eyes (remake).

    An actual picture? Are you crazy? Do you think that the world is ready for that?

    It might be a generational thing, I don’t see any need to link this ‘me’ with reality. But if you insist on the truth, here’s me in my autobiography; http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3423116800/tt0080678

    There may be some alcohol involved right now (it’s getting late here), but it should be clear why I like Mr Munson’s unusual sense of the ridiculous.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Susan

    You are correct; I addressed women as a whole. If I want to address the ladies of HUS or a certain individual, I will do so.

    Otherwise, presume my comments are addressed generally. If 1 person assumes I’m talking about them without my addressing them, well, that’s not something I can help.

    Hope that clarifies.

  • Just1X

    @Susan @415

    I agree that changing attitudes in commenters are interesting, I’m not saying Deti has or hasn’t, but as a general topic for a post it would be very interesting; “does HUS/manosphere exposure change your views?”

    I think that HUS humanises ‘the other half’ of humanity.

    The manosphere tackles seperate, but related issues (those that Wudang, MMM and I touched on) so I value that (there’s a huge range of sites).

    But I can’t read the feminist sites, I just don’t share their ‘reality’; “teh patriarchy”, “patriarchal opression” really?!!! And the “1 in 4″ / “77 cents on the dollar” / “1% conviction rate” are so deluded as to be laughable (except for the fact that they are used to ‘justify’ laws and quotas)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      I tackle that 77 cents on the dollar bit every chance I get when I am with other women. Most are not really receptive, but I plug away. It really drives me crazy.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Anacaona

    I wish you’d emailed me instead of sharing that comment. It’s fodder for enemies of HUS, of which there are many. I’ve deleted it. I may answer you via email at some point.

  • MuffManMike

    Susan,

    Point taken. I’ll refrain from such comments. I think having a conversation Tom gave me a migraine and i took it over the top.

    Even tho there is still an element of truth to it. It’s just that you are not in the position to see it. I know plenty of really great ladies. They’re all locked away to other guys. It makes me shudder as to what is left and out in the open. And the grenade metaphor Just1x proffered up is very accurate since my ex wore the face of a dud at the start, and ended up being live munition.

    You and me are in completely opposite places, you’re happily married, mine is legally ending. You get field reports of the battle in your command center. I’m tangled in barb wire on the front line facing gun embankments getting chewed up and limbs blown off. And this is with me not even having my foot back into the dating water or being of young college age. fugitive painted a bleak picture.

    It may not be real or accurate the russian roulette analogy.. life experiences shape your reality. i have issues and a lot of resentment to get over still i agree. but i guess im really bitter because while id like to think that things will get better, they won’t in my lifetime so why even bother. Maybe a generation or two things in the SMP will subside, genders will not lie to each other and understand what it is the other side needs to feel happy and content. But it will get worse before it gets better and use whatever analogy you wish, roulette, coin flips, playing in traffic… my chances of finding a happy ending is really a matter of striking a OO on the roulette table. With all the shit i’ve been through i think i’m firmly damaged and will have trust issues for life, the red pill only enhanced it knowing a generation of indoctrination and gender experimentation robbed me of a contented adolescence. And eat pray love robbed me of the rest. Couple that with the current SMP and i might as well go build a cabin in the woods and slowly turn into the next Unibomber (sarcasm)

    Anyways, possibly going to follow Deti’s route. Reading manosphere day in day out of continual injustices and continual attacks and ridiculing of men by society at large, and seeming indifference by women of all stripes from all walks of life really burns you out. So too i think it’s time for me to exit for a bit to relax and see if there’s any glimmer of hope on the horizon. But that hopes for the next gen.. i’m probably too far gone. Maybe when i come back i’ll have good news that i’ve found someone who changed my outlook on life. Course if you don’t see me again.. you’ll know the house won.

    Cheers.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @MMM

      I do understand that’s been your experience. And I do sympathize. I’m not asking you to leave – you’re a good man, and you have a huge heart. A woman would be very fortunate to get with you. I think it’s healthy to come out of the manosphere rabbit hole every so often and take a look at the blue sky. There are many good and lonely people in this world, all hoping to connect. It’s not impossible. I hope you won’t be a stranger – and I wish you happiness and love.

  • Just1X

    @MMM

    You should really look in on Cappy Cap
    http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2012/02/mgtow-vs-wgtow.html

    He nails it (as you just have). He’s another MGTOW (though I didn’t really twig it until that post, I just enjoyed his posts anyway).

    Going MGTOW gives you a rest (it is NOT your fault, and society is NOT yours to fix – take a deep breath and let it all go).

    I got divorced over a decade ago, everything you say about your feelings rings true for me. Men are trained to take the blame and fix the problem, but that’s not appropriate in this situation, but it is stressful as hell because that’s how you do feel. Take a MGTOW break with a lounger, some beer and peanuts. MGTOW is not a life long commitment even though some people make it sound monk-like (sex is actually allowed; it is YOUR way).

    If you want to blow off steam, I’d recommend AVFM (A Voice For Men) and the-spearhead. I like HUS, but I vent elsewhere.

    Peace and luck Brother.

    (signing off now)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Sorry I usually try to advice you in the open just in case someone has a differing opinion. I will email you next time. Again I didn’t meant to hurt HUS.

  • Just1X

    “Mr. MRA Congeniality”

    hmmmm, thing is I come here when I feel congenial. Is this selection bias? I like the me that I am when I’m here. (I’m not schizoid – promise). Not sure that my sense of humour always works online, but then that’s how it is in real life, so no real surprise there – c’est la vie.

    but thank you, that’s two compliments in one day (the other from Jesus), so I may need to go lay down…but then it is approaching 1:00am

  • OffTheCuff

    For what it’s worth, I noticed the same thing about Deti, too.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    She lost Doqsquat for good, it seems, which is a real shame. I wonder why.

    I’m Anacaona’s lawyer and I had advised my client not to address this issue further in HUS or any blogs of the so called manosphere. ;)

  • Wudang

    Not here, right? For the record, I agree with you. That’s unconscionable behavior. Take each study with a grain of salt, though.

    No, no. A different forum with no specific agenda. I know women here are sympahetic.

  • Jackie

    @Just1x

    OMG, that clip! Hilarious! I would pay good money to see a live re-enactment of this, starring Uncle Tom & yourself. :D

  • Jackie

    @M3

    Aww, Mike! You sound like such an awesome guy with, like Susan said, a really big heart. I was hoping you would stick around, only so we could swap evil grandmother stories. :( (You called yours “The Beast,” I called mine, “The Mean One.”)

    Much peace and best wishes for healing, M3. May you be protected by a guardian angel until we see you again –

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    Thanks so much for the kind words! I know I have the annoying kind of upbeat personality ;) Ah well, somebody’s gotta do it!

    I think that it’s easy to understand why tempers are short, though: You have a self-selected audience of people who have been through some rough stuff, hard times with the economy, it’s the end of the week, too. People probably need to put their feet up in a comfy chair, have someone fix them a hot meal or cool drink. Takes the edge off!

    Y’know I called my dad today; I think you’d appreciate his viewpoint. He was *really* good at defusing situations. Even when we were little and we’d pitch fits, he would ask, Are you hungry/tired/cranky? Was someone mean to you? He *rarely* yelled back. And he almost never took the bait by getting angry back. (That lets the kid win, losing your temper.)

    When I was a teen, I was still no prize and would say, I haaaate you! And he would reply with a smile, You’re supposed to hate me: I represent everything you’re supposed to rebel against. Or else he would say, in response to some claim of unfairness, Jacqueline, I love you just the way you are. How can you stay mad at that? :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      He was *really* good at defusing situations. Even when we were little and we’d pitch fits, he would ask, Are you hungry/tired/cranky? Was someone mean to you? He *rarely* yelled back. And he almost never took the bait by getting angry back.

      When I was 10, my parents took us to see Gone With the Wind. The movie was already nearly 30 years old by then, but I loved it. I distinctly recall thinking that I wanted very much to be like Melanie. Unflappable, empathic, warm, loving, generous. Even at 10 I knew that I was much closer to Scarlett in temperament.

      I’m still trying to channel Melanie FWIW, and I’m still more like Scarlett. The only compensation I can offer is that Melanie would never have started this blog.

  • Lindsay

    Jackie always knows the right thing to say. High-five girl!

    My rule of thumb when the Internet starts pissing me off is to put the Internet down for a while. It’s a good rule. I’m on some forums where lots of people press “Send” without reading over their post a second time to think about how it comes across to the nameless, faceless dudes they’re addressing who live 6 states away. I bet I’ve done it too. It’s easy to let things spin out of control quickly once a certain line gets crossed.

    As for HUS specifically, I have been directly insulted on here maybe 2-3 times but usually people try to be decent about things and I likewise give my best in return. If I’m not interested in a discussion or it’s getting too personal and judgmental, I stop commenting. As I see it, I don’t need to reply to every post on the Internet – sometimes, there’s nothing to say.

    Be well everyone. Best wishes to Munson. Happy weekend to you all.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I’m sorry to see some of the guys are on their way out. That’s really a shame, as they have taught me a lot.

    Susan feel free to delete this if you want and I’ll just e-mail you as necessary, but I’ve also noticed a change in your opinion too (and the opinions of Jesus Mahoney). If some of the guys are moving closer towards the fringe out of frustration (and I agree, I’ve seen a change in Badger, for example) other folks are moving in the opposite direction. I get the sense that some people really feel their experiences have been invalidated by the cries of NAWALT… I know I have become overly frustrated when people go after me for how I feel about other women, as if the problem is completely on me and I just have a habit of picking crappy friends. Maybe, but then why are there so many crappy friends to be had?

    I’m not saying that women as a whole should be shamed, but commenters like Mike and deti regularly make good points, and pushing them away because the reviews they give women are not stellar is not particularly productive. I agree with Anacaona… the best thing about HUS has been the frank discussion between the sexes. But we can’t have that discussion if some of the smartest commenters are on their way out because they don’t feel that their viewpoints are valued.

    Yohami is right, I am getting bored with the Us vs. Them stuff too, and it really is coming from both sides. The louder the cries of NAWALT, the more frustrated/hardened the men become, and vice versa. It’s a vicious cycle… we all need to chill a bit, and stop thinking about it in terms of “sides.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      If some of the guys are moving closer towards the fringe out of frustration (and I agree, I’ve seen a change in Badger, for example) other folks are moving in the opposite direction.

      OK, I guess I need to address this question openly. I’ll be as honest as I can. I need to think carefully about what I want HUS to be. I know that I want it to be a community, here in the comment threads, and I believe that is how most of the regulars experience it. I agree that the open dialog between the sexes here is a feature of the blog, and gives it great energy and momentum.

      There is also a large body of readers who do not comment. It is estimated that only 1% of blog readers ever leave a comment. The number is higher here, perhaps, but not by much. Maybe it’s 2%? I get a little over 7K unique visitors a day, half of them new. That’s with 2-3 posts per week. Alexa says the majority of my readership is female, aged 18-30. The majority of readers, especially new readers, will not read the comment threads thoroughly. Quite a few of our regular commenters were new readers who stuck around and began to de-lurk after a while and join the conversation, which is great. So I’ve got two very distinct and separate target markets here. As I’ve shared many times, a large portion of my search traffic comes from some variation on the question “Why don’t I have a boyfriend?”

      As I see it, the best way to convert readers to lurkers, and lurkers to commenters, is to foster a conversation that is as inclusive as possible, and that means minimizing judgment of individuals. I am happy to judge a philosophy – feminism, for example – by describing and debating what effects it’s had on society, the SMP, etc. I do not welcome blanket judgments about either sex, especially when the motivation is clearly born of anger and resentment based on individual experience. It is understandable, but not helpful, as it sets up the opposite sex as the enemy.

      I also find it spectacularly unhelpful to categorize either sex in binary terms. Most human traits and behaviors reside on a spectrum. We are all products of our DNA, personality traits, hormones, experiences, age and upbringing. The notion that AWALT or AMALT is preposterous. It’s reductionist, lazy thinking, and it cannot ever move the debate forward. It is nearly always what is responsible for the arguments that occur here. I have been extremely aware of feeling the need to push back against such claims in the last couple of months, as they seem to have become more frequent and strident. During one male’s last visit to this blog, he stated that the women commenters here “fill me with rage.” He also stated that he has come to believe that success with women requires embracing the Dark Triad traits. That is anathema to me, and to what I am trying to accomplish here. There are blogs where such sentiments will be welcomed and applauded. HUS is not one of them. When people find themselves dealing with that level of anger and hostility toward the opposite sex, then they are wise to take a break from a blog where interacting with the opposite sex is the MO. I appreciate it, in fact. I hope those individuals will find their way back here when they seek productive cross-sex conversation again.

      While I do feel saddened about losing regulars when that happens, I am also keenly aware of feedback from others who have participated here briefly, then vanished. There have been several males who have been excellent contributors here – Dogsquat is one, Zach is another. They generally have some knowledge of the SMP and Game, though not always. They expressed dismay at some of the male views found here, and after a while they stopped showing up. I feel that loss keenly as well, for they were voices of moderation. Other commenters, like Megaman and Escoffier, feel like fish out of water here sometimes. Their comments are often prefaced with sentiments like, “Maybe I’m an outlier, but…I think less is more.” Or “I guess I’m too old to comment…but I never wanted sexual variety after I met my wife.” That’s a real sort of censorship that’s taking place here.

      What it boils down to is attitude and tone. I believe it is in the best interest of readers, HUS, and by extension myself, that conversations here be civil, respectful, and thoughtful. That doesn’t mean agreeing with me, but this is not a gym where people may take out their frustrations. If that makes the comment threads small, so be it. I have a responsibility to readers, and the blog’s tone reflects on me personally. All the hate is bad for business.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Olive

    Way to extend that branch Olive. :)

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Sassy,
    Just being honest. :-P I actually didn’t know we had finished that discussion. Damn, that’s what happens when you head out for a few hours…

  • Sassy6519

    @ Olive

    I was referring to your name. You know the phrase, “extending the olive branch”? Olive……. get it? :)

    (Hears crickets chirping)

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    (Hears crickets chirping)

    LOL! Duh. Seriously I really didn’t put that much thought into my username…

    That was like the time Yohami was posting pictures of martinis, with the olives in the corner that I didn’t see until he pointed them out. Guess I should’ve picked a different name. :-P

  • Jackie

    @Olive
    I liked your statement. I, too, hope that we can keep the honest discussion going around here and that people don’t bow out yet. :(

    @Sassy
    Ha! Well played, lady, well played. :)

    @Lindsay
    Thanks for the kind words! :D How is the quest (of the job) going these days?

  • Jackie

    Feel free to delete this if off-topic, but has anyone ever been carded for buying cough syrup?

    I have been super-sick this week. There was no food in the house and I was too embarrassed to ask friends for help. Anyway, I bought a ton of stuff, including cough syrup and lotsa medicine. They carded me and were kinda suspicious.

    Does this mean I look like a “meth dealer”? :(

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      There was no food in the house and I was too embarrassed to ask friends for help.

      Shame on you! Don’t you know that you would have made your friend’s day by giving them that opportunity? I love it when friends ask me for help.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Fwiw, I like having deti and Mike around.

    Olive, you were the one saying today that most girls you know are hung up on assholes that have no interest in committing to them. You can quibble over whether or not to call those girls “bad”, but girls who pine for (or put out for) assholes are clearly bad relationship prospects.

    If this were just a site that women frequented, it’s be easier to leave aside labels and focus on how women could improve themselves. But I think it’s important for men to know that there are better relationship options out there than women who are giving it up easy for jerks who don’t care about them. If it shames a woman for a man to say that…. then perhaps she ought to feel a bit of shame. I don’t want to drive anybody away, but I also don’t want to lie to protect anybody’s ego. It’s up to Sue to decide whether or not that aligns with her mission.

    As far as the men go, while I think it’s important and valuable to have them voice their opinions about women, I think their primary focus needs to be self-improvement. Being bitter isn’t going to win over any female converts from the dark side. Focusing on what selfish unreasonable bitches some women can be is going to a. repel the good women, and b. cause bitterness to fester among the good women.

    Do bad women outnumber good ones? No clue. But if men focus on improving themselves, they shouldn’t have a problem landing someone decent.

    Am I fooling myself because I’m “in-demand?” Could be. But Dogsquat (wherever the fuck he is) was just some decent looking guy with an average job, but the motherfucker exuded charm and warmth and class as much as Jackie, and claimed to have no problems finding relationships. And I have friends who don’t seem to be lacking options. So I don’t think I’m being impractical.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Susan
    I think it’s healthy to come out of the manosphere rabbit hole every so often and take a look at the blue sky.

    For me, the blogosphere is like a stage where I can play a role, try out a script, and even wear a costume, on a temporary basis. My character/persona is made up of aspects of my real personality that get blown up because this is the environment in which they can be exercised without offending people . . . although I have offended–or at least stunned–several long-time friends with the things I’ve said after stepping off the “stage.”

    So when we blog commenters start offending each other, I’d say it’s because we’re having too much fun being the characters we can’t be offline. I think only a tiny minority is as extreme in real life as they are in a thread. I really hope that with a little time “offstage,” we can all come back and do another act together.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bellita

      I really hope that with a little time “offstage,” we can all come back and do another act together.

      I love that metaphor.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jackie,

    I’ve gotten carded for buying Advil Cold and Sinus. Apparently showing id for that is the law in NY. Exactly because they want to make sure you’re not a meth dealer.

  • J

    as he calls for a cab his wife Susan joins him, and they stand there arm in arm bracing each other against the chill, share a small joke, laugh, kiss. The image stays with you as you enter to see of you can get a table.

    Tom, I believe that people really are influenced by this sort of scene. It’s not unusual that younger people stare longingly at the sight of DH and I laughing or hugging. I think the kids like to see that it’s possible for middle-age people to still be in love.

    I recall walking down the street about 24 years ago with DH. An elegantly dressed older couple, perhaps around 70, passed us by. They were holding hands. Dh and I looked at each other and said, nearly simultaneously, “I hope that us one day.”

  • Lindsay

    @Jackie:

    Thanks for asking! No interviews this week, but programming learnin’ is going well, and I also applied for several university tech department jobs locally (lower pay, but world-class bennies + tuition), and threw my hat in the ring for a technical design apprenticeship in Brooklyn (out-of-area/mid-career applicants were encouraged). If I don’t hear from anyone soon, I’ll be borrowing friends’ addresses in a few select East Coast cities and broadening my search. I just have to keep my chin up, fight negative thinking, and continue being creative with applications. Your encouragement, as always, is very appreciated. = D

    Sorry to hear about your being under the weather this week. I had what you had last weekend, and on into Monday night, and as with your experience, mine wasn’t awesome (is flu ever? ha!), but a nice chance to relax and reflect. Glad to hear you made the best of it, too. Getting carded for cough syrup isn’t something you need to deal with while sick, though. Ugh. We both spent part of our formative years in farm country, where meth production is a very big and very real issue, so I *technically* understand why we both always get carded for Robitussin, but regardless, I hate the nanny state feel of this policy. With the way things have gone, tho, I expect customer crackdowns at drug stores will only be getting worse. Perhaps you’d like to check out Drugstore.com? It seems you can order Robitussin there with less hassle.

  • Lindsay

    (Durr. I meant order for next time, of course. I think we’ll stock up too. Nothing beats having a nice little kit of flu remedies before you need them!)

  • J

    JM #234

    That was indeed a beautiful post filled with the truth. You are one of the sanest men I’ve ever seen post in the ‘sphere.

    I was particularly touched by your admission of feeling unattractive (We all feel that sometimes.) and by how you got over the bitterness attendant on that(Not everyone does). You’ve done a good job of healing from that.

    Some time ago, on a manosphere blog, a man commented on his “hatred” for his HB 6 “girlfriend.” He said that every time he looked at her it reminded him of how low his SMP was. His hatred of her was a reflection of his self-hatred. I was amazed at his honesty, genuinely pitied him for his self-hatred, pitied the HB 6 for not having the sense to see through his BS, and felt some contempt for his inability to face his issues in a more productive way than using another person. Not a single man on that blog suggested to him that his bitterness and self-hatred was a problem.

    Congratulations on being a better man than that.

  • Jackie

    @Bellita (#457)

    Bellita, this is so beautifully and compassionately articulated. Way to speak the truth in a fun, empathetic metaphor (simile? *something*!) I really appreciate your writing. :)

    PS: What are you giving up for Lent? I still haven’t decided!

  • Jackie

    @JM

    Thanks, Jesus M, for the response re: meth dealers. Good to know I am not alone! :) It was actually a really nice trip, other than that: the deli person gave me a recipe and helped me buy ginger root to beat this, a sweet old lady told me I looked like Veronica Lake and then when I dropped my groceries teenage boys helped pick them all up. I usually expect teenagers to be totally surly, like I was, so that was a nice surprise! Huzzah!

    OK, the Nyquil is kicking in! Later, gators!
    PS: Thank you for the kind comparison with the esteemed DS. I hope he comes back soon!

  • WarmWoman

    @Jesus “And I’d always felt like that. I had a mom who not only made me feel that I wasn’t worthwhile or attractive, but actually told me that.”

    That’s awful! I’m so sorry to hear about that.
    I’m so glad you’re doing well now in your life. :)

  • Jackie

    @Lindsay
    Hi Lindsay!

    I think the syrup is kicking in, so I better make this short ;) I just wanted to say you should be super proud of the way you are navigating this emplyment issue. It’s so easy to get depressed, feel sorry for yourself. But you are getting out there and kicking it. YEAH!

    (This may sound bizarre, but if I need to be inspired, I will YouTube great speeches and feel like the orator is speaking to me. That Winston Churchill one ['We Will Fight Across the Beaches'] I used to get myself to prepare to greatness. Or to complete household chores ;) )

    Onward! :D

  • Jackie

    @J (#462)

    Aw, that story of the guy hating himself and his GF is so sad! Here is the anti-dote:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq0XJCJ1Srw

    “The greatest thing… you’ll ever learn…. is just to love,
    and be loved, in return”

    PS J I am looking forward to you and your husband still being that couple– now and 30 years from now. :)

  • J

    but has anyone ever been carded for buying cough syrup?

    I have.

    Does this mean I look like a “meth dealer”?

    Probably not. I look like a middle-aged suburban mom, and I got carded. I think it’s a legal requirement that they card you. In some states, they send undercover officers into stores to purchase liquor and drugs in order to make sure store owners comply and card everyone.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Just,

    Now that is appreciated, really. I wish I could say it was entirely true, I try to be on best behaviour here…(stop laughing at the back). See what I mean about the humour?

    Since I’m neither level-headed nor rational, I can relate. And I think you often do a better job of it than me.

    I get the humor of the metaphor. And like I said, if he wasn’t trying to say that the vast majority of women were explosive, then fair enough. I just feel like the comparison makes the non-explosive women sound like the rare exceptions to the rule. Obviously that wasn’t the case for others reading it, but that was the message I got from it when I read it.

    I’m a writer, so debating the success of a metaphor appeals to me. I get that most people don’t give a flying though.

  • J

    Focusing on what selfish unreasonable bitches some women can be is going to a. repel the good women, and b. cause bitterness to fester among the good women.

    JM, you are on fire on this thread!

    I don’t know if some guys realize how much of a red flag bitterness is to women. Back in the Stone Age when I was still dating, if some guy began to unload about an ex to me, I’d run in the other direction. Men, I noticed, would do the same if I unloaded bitterness at an ex. No sane person wants to take the risk of having to suffer for the sins of someone else. While people need to learn from previous relationship errors and not allow themselves to made fools of, they also need to deal with new people in a fair manner and as a fresh start. Even now, when divorced men in my social circle unload to me in a manner that is unfair to their exes, it reduces my respect for them. OTOH, when I see men who are divorcing nasty or unstable women and refuse to publically badmouth them, I feel respect for their not wanting to wash their dirty laundry in public. When your ex is at fault, other people know, you don’t need to yell it from the rooftops.

  • J

    There is a male perspective, and it matters, even if it doesn’t affect you as an individual.

    Just one?? It seems like different men have different perspectives, even the ‘sphere. Outside of the ‘sphere, which is a self-selecting group, there are diferent perspectives as well.

  • J

    @Jackie

    Yes, it really is sad. I hope I didn’t sound snarky in bringing it up, but the pain, self-hatred and hatred of others in that post really affected me deeply when I read it. It explains a lot of the anger and bitterness we see expressed in the’sphere, and I’m not sure an overdose of the red pill is the cure. Nor is inflicting a lifelong personal problem on people, who if not completely innocent, have their own issues and vulnerabilities. I’m not suggesting that men idealize or pedestalize women. Women have their issues as well. But people who can look at others as individuals with their pasts, issues, foibles and virtues are pretty much doomed to fail at relationships.

    Thanks for the good wishes for me and DH. I hope we are still here 30 years from now. We’ll be well into our 80s.

    Feel better soon.

    J

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    Two things I want to address:

    Olive, you were the one saying today that most girls you know are hung up on assholes that have no interest in committing to them. You can quibble over whether or not to call those girls “bad”, but girls who pine for (or put out for) assholes are clearly bad relationship prospects.

    I fundamentally disagree. The more I think about it, the more I think these girls are just lost and need a healthy dose of confidence combined with an attitude change. These girls are also not that uncommon which brings me to my second point.

    You have posited, several times now, that decent women aren’t very difficult to find, if a guy can just get over his bitterness. You say this, I suspect, because of your recent success in the last few months. While I’m very happy for you, there are a few problems with your claim:

    1) Let’s say, for the sake of the argument, that women are split 50-50: 50% are decent, 50% are crappy. Let’s also assume that the amount of men and women are relatively equal. This means 50% of guys are gonna get with decent women, while 50% will end up with the crappy ones. That’s all fine and dandy, except for the guys who end up with crappy women. What do they do, go their own way? Remain celibate? Mathematically speaking, it just doesn’t make sense, in my mind, that every single guy can improve himself and find a decent woman, regardless of the percentages. The women have to change. And that’s what deti’s been saying all along. He’s not bitter, he’s realistic. And you’re essentially writing off the experiences of the guys who’ve come across these “crappy women” by saying that they aren’t working hard enough at self-improvement. That’s why the guys are pissed at you.

    2) You aren’t going to receive this well, but you have been coming at this issue solely from a Jesus Mahoney perspective for quite some time now. You aren’t playing for Team Woman, exactly, but you are playing for Team Good Woman. That’s why the ladies here love you, because they think you’re on their team. The problem is, you’re not, because what you still have not understood is that you cannot simply categorize women into two camps. I can see this in your attitude towards my past: you’re conflicted. You would’ve told my BF to write me off in the beginning, but now you wouldn’t, because I’ve made some “positive changes.”

    In reality, I’ve always been this way. At my core, I have not changed. I went through “a stage,” in which my behaviors conflicted with my values. I was still growing up. The issue here is that you don’t trust women who have fallen for assholes in the past, so you’ve decided that some women just don’t fall for assholes, and they are the decent ones. I don’t know why you’re trying to convince yourself of this, but IMO it’s off the mark. I suspect all women have some asshole they fell for in the past, and whether they want to admit it is up to them. I’ve come clean about it here because I’m interested in personal growth, and part of the growing process is exploring your past.

    But for the sake of the lurkers who HAVE fallen for assholes (I’m sure there are plenty), I want to clarify that falling for an asshole does not make you a bad relationship prospect, in and of itself. The kind of attitude overhaul I advocate is about something much deeper, and it is my core belief that no one inherently makes for a poor partner; you can become a good partner, regardless of your past. That is what my blog is about.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      Let’s say, for the sake of the argument, that women are split 50-50: 50% are decent, 50% are crappy. Let’s also assume that the amount of men and women are relatively equal. This means 50% of guys are gonna get with decent women, while 50% will end up with the crappy ones. That’s all fine and dandy, except for the guys who end up with crappy women.

      Do you see what you did there? You assumed that 100% of men are decent. If the 50/50 ratio holds for men too, then there is no reason why every decent person can’t find another decent person with similar SMV. Part of it is the ability to present, and the other part is the ability to select. For both sexes.

      You aren’t playing for Team Woman, exactly, but you are playing for Team Good Woman.

      Do you see any male commenters playing for Team Bad Woman?

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Whoa, I did not mean to make that as long as it became. I apologize for anyone who tries to read through that whirlwind. :-P

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Jackie
    I hope you feel better soon my sister in the Sparkling word of Twilight :)

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I want to clarify, also, that I’m not saying men are saints. There are probably a score of issues men can work on. I’ll let other blogs in the ‘sphere deal with that. I come to this SMP from a female perspective, so it’s my prerogative to address and discuss the behavior of women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      I come to this SMP from a female perspective, so it’s my prerogative to address and discuss the behavior of women.

      Agreed. Now here’s what many male commenters would say:

      I come to this SMP from a male perspective, so it’s my prerogative to address and discuss the behavior of women.

  • Candide

    @ J

    “I don’t know if some guys realize how much of a red flag bitterness is to women.”

    One reason you get to see a lot of “bitterness” (I simply see frank uncensored words) from guys like deti, Badger etc. (excluding Jesus who’s too invested in his white knight good guy’s schtick) here is because none of them gives a damn about attracting any of you girls, so they don’t care what flags their words may raise. I can assure you that you would not be able to detect any of this if you were on a date with one of them IRL.

    I’m quite impressed with how Olive gets the guys’ perspective. I shouldn’t be, as this is meant to be a place full of smart people and this stuff is trivial to grok, but from what I’ve seen so far, she deserves two thumbs up.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Candide

      none of them gives a damn about attracting any of you girls, so they don’t care what flags their words may raise.

      I hope you’re wrong about that. That is not a productive way to have a dialog.

  • Emily

    >> “Being bitter isn’t going to win over any female converts from the dark side. Focusing on what selfish unreasonable bitches some women can be is going to a. repel the good women, and b. cause bitterness to fester among the good women.”

    +1

    I know people get annoyed when people point out that NAWLT, but if we don’t then this blog just becomes a jerk-off circle for bitter people to talk about how much all women suck. (I know this is harsh, but that’s what it can look like at times.)

    There are forces in this SMP that are bringing out the worst in both sides, and I think that there are things that people in both groups can do to improve themselves and to improve their own chances.

    The issues with the SMP are a lot more complicated than just “all women are awful entitlement princesses”.

    I know a lot of great girls, a lot of great guys, some crappy guys/girls, as well as a LOT of confused but well-meaning people from both groups who don’t know wtf is going on.

    I think the people of HUS are best off figuring out how to find other people from the first group, avoid those from the second group, and possibly help any friends/family members who are in the last group.

  • Just1X

    @Olive

    I’m a divorced, MRA, MGTOW guy and I’ve always believed NAWALT. I don’t argue the point on MRA sites as views are strongly felt…’nuff said.

    I reckon that humanity is a bell-end, sorry couple of bell curves ‘men’ and ‘women’ that overlap in rationality and approach to life. Women don’t have to be ruled by the hamster and men don’t have to be cool and calculating; we all exist on a spectrum.

    I could easily have clashed with ‘someone here’ when I first read her comments, she just rubbed me up the wrong way (it’s hard to explain, but I suspect she knows where I’m coming from; that the phenomenum exists). When she later wrote that she understands that she isn’t able to present herself in a way that everybody gets, and has to live with that. I had a bingo moment – wow, I know how that feels; it feels like me. Which is why I’m glad that I initially bit my tongue (I find that the interwebs work better that way). There are people here that I’m not sure what would happen if we met IRL. Not fights, but whether we’d get on very well…who knows?

    So, I don’t come here when I’m in a bad mood, but how serious I’m feeling does vary (like Mr Munson, I think). I don’t come here to win arguments, but just to state da menz side in a helpful way (I hope). I come to understand da wimminz side a little better, whilst being clear where I come from.

  • Just1X

    @JM
    “Since I’m neither level-headed nor rational”

    whoa! I’m not sure about that.

    But you are definitely not coming from where I am in life (for obvious reasons), you’re one of the people that I wouldn’t know what to expect if we met IRL. I remain optimistic(!) but we have very differant view points, if we did have a few beers I’m not sure that I could predict where the discussion would go…but it would probably be interesting.

    Olive is coming from an interesting place (IMHO), I really hope that it works out for her and her constituency. She sounds firmly grounded and that’s nice to see in either sex. There’s always beer so that a grounded person can take the night off from reality.

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    “@Just1X

    Are you MGTOW? Because I think you are very attractive, your gravatar notwithstanding. Might want to think about getting out there if you’re not already.”

    I think that I’m ‘mostly MGTOW’.

    I have always been pretty self sufficient mentally, quite independant in nature. I have friends of both sexes. They mostly ‘enjoy’ my sense of humour (which is the same IRL).

    Cappy Cap describes full-on MGTOW very well. I don’t think that my circuits are all burned out, but I think that the take-away message of my life so far is;

    “Never let anyone else determine your happiness*. You are responsible for your joie-de-vivre, or lack thereof. If you are not happy it is your job to fix it.”

    (*a man can’t be happy when married to an unhappy woman, especially one that self-bastes in it, rather than fix it)

    So, while I can believe that there are women out there that I’d enjoy being with, I could never be the same person who married the first time again (I’m just not that idealistic anymore, that level of trust is gone).

    Plus, if I’m realistic, the women who I want aren’t a realistic target for me. I’m not tall or dark (any more. Think grey not pink), and whilst financially comfortable, I’m not shopping for helicopters for the yacht I haven’t got.

    I’m not going to spend all my time chasing a close-to-unicorn, I’m just going to try and have fun. So, ‘mostly MGTOW’.

  • Just1X

    @Jackie

    “OMG, that clip! Hilarious! I would pay good money to see a live re-enactment of this, starring Uncle Tom & yourself. ”

    Thanks for the appreciation, I appreciate it… :)

    I’ll practice channeling my inner Burt.

  • Hugh Gurley Bushnell

    From 2012 book The Accordian Family — Boomerang Kids, Anxious Parents, and the Private Toll of Global Competition:

    “In Scandanavia, unwed parents are plentiful among the vast middle class. In Sweden, about 55 percent of births occur outside of marriage . . . In Denmark, that figure (as of 2007) is about 46 percent . . .”

    Given the above, and given that Nordic capitalism thrives by many measures (e.g., “vast middle class,” social mobility, GDP growth, productivity growth), positing marriage as the bedrock of society is, well, laughable on its face.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hugh Gurley Bushnell

      Given the above, and given that Nordic capitalism thrives by many measures (e.g., “vast middle class,” social mobility, GDP growth, productivity growth), positing marriage as the bedrock of society is, well, laughable on its face.

      I don’t know enough about the Scandinavia countries to weigh in on that. We do have some Nordic regulars here – perhaps they will. In any case, I have heard the SMP in several of those countries is warped and dysfunctional. I wouldn’t be surprised if we could find some measures that show less “thriving” in the Nordic countries.

  • WarmWoman

    J “Back in the Stone Age when I was still dating, if some guy began to unload about an ex to me, I’d run in the other direction”

    I wished I learned that sooner! Now, I know that’s it’s not a good sign. :)

    I would give empathy to men that would bash their exes only because I was putting myself in their situation. When I look back, a man or a woman not being over his ex and badmouthing them on dates right away points towards you being next! Eeek.

  • WarmWoman

    @J

    “Even now, when divorced men in my social circle unload to me in a manner that is unfair to their exes, it reduces my respect for them. OTOH, when I see men who are divorcing nasty or unstable women and refuse to publically badmouth them, I feel respect for their not wanting to wash their dirty laundry in public. When your ex is at fault, other people know, you don’t need to yell it from the rooftops.”

    This has been a boundary lesson for me when other female friends and co-workers try to reel information from me about a break-up and ask what exactly happened. I know..I should be more assertive in just telling people “I don’t want to go into it.” I used to tell people the truth when they would ask, but I’m uncomfortable at badmouthing a man that I once loved (even if he did do wrong things). It just keeps me stuck in the past.

    I wish people would also be respectful about privacy when someone breaks up, but oh well. When I hear of someone breaking up, I’m careful not to pry and make them feel uncomfortable.

  • WarmWoman

    Susan

    “I come to this SMP from a male perspective, so it’s my prerogative to address and discuss the behavior of women”

    I think it’s fine for men and women to address the mistakes of each other, as long as it’s done in a respectful way that doesn’t make the person feel criticized or not good enough.

    I’m all for forgiving past mistakes, as long as one is committed to change.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @WW

      I think it’s fine for men and women to address the mistakes of each other, as long as it’s done in a respectful way that doesn’t make the person feel criticized or not good enough.

      Agree 100%.

  • Just1X

    @Susan
    “You assumed that there 100% of men are decent”

    I don’t think that this is true. She just said 50% of men end up with crappy women (mathematically viable), she didn’t say anything about the quality of the men.

    “If the 50/50 ratio holds for men too, then there is no reason why every decent person can’t find another decent person ”

    leaving the %ages aside, I don’t think that this is how it’s working out…

    FWIW your balancing act is tricky to keep up, but seems to be working. Some people seem to keep falling under the illusion that you claim to be running an MRA site – you don’t claim that, so why do people blow up about it? If you were anti-MRA I wouldn’t be here, to me you appear to be more pro than anti, but see no need to be exclusively either – works for me and enough people to have multi-thousand comment threads from what feels like a broad community. You can’t be getting it too wrong despite a slowly rotating population.

    Only 2% comment – wow. Some of the other 98% should de-lurk from time to time…take a comment out for a spin, who knows where you’ll end up?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      You can’t be getting it too wrong despite a slowly rotating population.

      Thanks for the kind words. You brought up a good point – there will always be some rotation. Surprisingly, people sometimes have disappeared for two years and then returned. I never know who may show up! Someone who is a stranger to all of you may have been here in 2009.

      For example, Dogsquat – last we heard he had fallen in love. He’s a paramedic and full-time college student. Maybe he doesn’t have time, or HUS is not a priority – that’s fair.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    @JUST1X

    What type of women do you want that you think you can’t get?

  • Abbot

    “I sympathise with what the women here say about the SMP (wait too long => frigid, don’t wait => slut) – tricky, seriously, that’s a legitimate quandry.”

    ONLY because that is how nearly all men think and women know it. Put another way, there are very few men indeed who do not value a woman’s sexuality and will partially evaluate her based on how she values it as well. Women down here – good and far from the tortured West – do not struggle with this self-imposed quandary.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    J,

    Thanks. People defend their bitterness based on whether or not it’s justified. The world’s a mess and each of us could find a lot to fuel bitterness. The question isn’t whether or not it’s justified, it’s whether or not it’s useful.

    In some cases, I’d say it is. It’s a protective mechanism: bitterness closes us off from being vulnerable. But as a continued mode of existence, bitterness sucks. It’s toxic. And, while it might protect us in this or that situation, it never leads to growth and development and happiness.

  • Just1X

    @Abbot

    (Women down here? Oz?)

    Well…men don’t appreciate spending time and money chasing a woman who is just using them for ego boosts (and nice meals etc) whilst waiting for an interesting guy to come along. Men (non-game) put their ego on the line (and wallet). Women are welcome to start asking men out anytime they like (and yes, maybe just for a date. not sex immediately, though that IS where his mind will go – so it’s his fault when he gets disappointed)

    So I don’t see it as unreasonable to put a limit on the investment (time, money, ego) before seeing real buy-in to the possibility of a relationship.

    The current SMP (from comments here) seems to be 3 dates before sex. Which works gang-busters for playas and sluts.

    For normal people (not playas, not sluts), there’s probably room for a little wriggle room: positive feedback short of sex, going dutch, ‘she’ sets up the second date etc etc.

    Don’t make the investment in the possibility of future relationship weigh too heavily on either side.

    Just my suggestion YMMV

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    The more I think about it, the more I think these girls are just lost and need a healthy dose of confidence combined with an attitude change.

    I agree. And when they do get the self esteem and positive attitude, then I think they’ll be better relationship prospects. We don’t disagree there.

    You aren’t going to receive this well, but you have been coming at this issue solely from a Jesus Mahoney perspective for quite some time now. You aren’t playing for Team Woman, exactly, but you are playing for Team Good Woman. That’s why the ladies here love you, because they think you’re on their team. The problem is, you’re not, because what you still have not understood is that you cannot simply categorize women into two camps. I can see this in your attitude towards my past: you’re conflicted. You would’ve told my BF to write me off in the beginning, but now you wouldn’t, because I’ve made some “positive changes.”

    I’m not going to speculate on why people here like me or hate me, but I don’t play for Team Man OR Woman. I play for Team People–Team Good People, really. I want them to be happy and to make others happy.

    Women who give attention to assholes are like people who feed the animals at the zoo. They encourage the assholes to keep coming back. What’s more, they’re too enamored of the assholes (the reasons being immaterial to potential boyfriends) to make good relationship prospects.

    As for men, I see lot of pessimistic ones here. And a lot of good women trying to qualify themselves to the men. And the men ignoring whatever good they see and incessantly complaining about how bad women are.

    There are a lot of bitter guys. Do they have reasons for their bitterness? Yes. Is anybody in the real world going to give a squalid squirrel shit what their reasons are? No. Because bitter people are self-pitying and they radiate toxicity. They make people feel like they SHOULD want to help them while at the same time make people want to get as far the fuck away from them as possible. They’re like black holes. They’re terrible, but they try to suck you in to the hole in their soul. Unfortunately I know that from experience.

    I want women to be good. I want men to be happy. But men can’t make their happiness contingent upon the “goodness” of women.

    I come to this SMP from a female perspective, so it’s my prerogative to address and discuss the behavior of women.

    Fair enough. I’m a guy. I’m doing the same from my end. I’m not sure what your issue with that really is. That’s for you to work out though.

  • SayWhaat

    I can assure you that you would not be able to detect any of this if you were on a date with one of them IRL.

    Having witnessed Badger Game in action, I have to disagree.

  • Hugh Gurley Bushnell

    Susan,

    You wrote:

    “I have heard the SMP in several of those countries is warped and dysfunctional.”

    More to the point re: marriage as the bedrock of civilization, SMP dynamics in Nordic countries are not distorted by scarcity economics.

    In the Nordic region, there is effectively no chance that job loss will impose poverty on a single parent, and the cost of raising a child is not prohibitive for a single parent.

    From the standpoint of raising children who (go on to) thrive, then, SMP dynamics are largely orthogonal.

    Enter a recent Rutgers study, which reports that only 38 percent of married people in America describe themselves as happy.

    In countries like the U.S., of course, parenting and scarcity economics are deeply enmeshed (e.g., among the educated who want to provide their children with schooling that is very costly).

    Summing up: marriage-biased public policies may be the bedrock of marriage. :-)

    Note: resist any temptation to claim that Nordic civilization will soon be undone by their epidemic of single parenting; current students in the Nordic region always compare very favorably to their counterparts abroad, etc.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    excluding Jesus who’s too invested in his white knight good guy’s schtick

    Oh god. White knight is becoming code for “girls like him better.”

    DBJ

  • WarmWoman

    Hey Jesus

    My girlfriend told me “If girls aren’t acting catty or jealous towards you, you’re not doing a good enough job of being hot.”

    Perhaps that can apply to men as well. ;)

  • Jackie

    @Bella C (#475)

    Thanks so much! :D

  • Jackie

    PS: When you said, “Maybe that’s why we’re both CATholic” on the other thread, I read this as cat-a-holic. As in, an unhealthy addiction to cats. :)
    >^..^<

    *gives kitties another tummy rub* *snorgles*

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    Crud! I just wrong this long comment to you, then somehow erased it! :(

    The jist of it: GWTW!! Melly was sweet, but come on, we all kept reading for Scarlett :-)

    I think you are awesome and doing a *fantastic* job! The blog is just going through “growing pains”– just like any other blog or business (or person).
    KOKO! (Keep On Keepin’ On :) )

    PS: The thought about my dad was poorly expressed. I only meant the back-and-forth between some folks reminded me of me & my sister. Round and round we’d go! Sometimes my dad would interject with a hug or a cold drink, sometimes he’d need to set us straight. Anyway, not meant as a commentary on you. Just wish we could hand each other virtual drinks or hugs sometimes.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    PS: Message received about asking for assistance from friends :) I guess now you know one of my worst weaknesses: Inability to ask for help!

  • OffTheCuff

    I imagine most of your traffic do not get deep into the comments, I just read the articles for quite a while before even realizing there was a comment section.

    The term bitter here is very contentions, second only to slut. I highly recommend that nobody fling that term, unless someone asks a pointed question “do I come off as bitter”? The reason why it’s so contentious is that men have been accused of being bitter when merely admitting to a regret, or criticising poor female behavior. It is, more often than not (and far more often than slut) merely used as a female on male ad-hominem.

    That’s just as weak-minded as a man calling a woman a slut when she admits to an indiscretion or a single causal affair. Yes, a man might think that and judge that way, but have some decorum when leveraging it directly at a person.

    Women, every time you call a particlaur man bitter to his face, imagine him calling you a slut.

    That’s not to say some of the more strident men here don’t come off as bitter. I think it takes another man to break it to them what’s happening, if a woman does it, he’s going to go on the defensive.

    Normally, it’s “creep” that women uses as the epithet of choice, but I find it’s just been sugar-coated by one PC level to “bitter”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OffTheCuff

      The reason why it’s so contentious is that men have been accused of being bitter when merely admitting to a regret, or criticising poor female behavior. It is, more often than not (and far more often than slut) merely used as a female on male ad-hominem.

      I agree with you. I chose the terms anger and hostility, emotions that all of us feel sometimes, and ones that reflect what several men have said here recently – “filled with rage,” “pissed off,” “fuck you,” etc. To be honest, JM talks the most about bitterness being toxic, so that is one man leveling with another.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Jackie
    There is nothing wrong with being a Cat-a-holic either I always tell my husband that if things wouldn’t had worked out between us I had a brilliant future as cat lady. :)

  • Maggie

    I’ve commented a few times on this thread (as “PV” getting confused with someone else) but I hesitate to comment much and I can see why a young woman would be afraid to comment at all. It appears that this blog is going from “Hooking up Smart” to “How Despicable are Women?” and it’s depressing.

    It’s great to hear men’s point of view . I think I’ve learned a lot from the men who’ve had difficult divorces and how they feel the system is rigged against them. It’s just my experience, but for every man who’s been dumped by a woman who is unhappy, I can show you a 32-old woman who’s husband decided he didn’t want to be a husband and father anymore or a 50-year old woman whose husband traded her in for a younger model. There is enough bitterness to go around.

    “Do you see what you did there? You assumed that 100% of men are decent.”

    How many people besides Susan caught this? Is this what the HUS community really believes, that 50% of woman are decent and 100% of men are? If so, what’s the point of even talking to one another?

    I have a lot more to say but I’m more of a Melanie than a Scarlett and this has gotten me so grumpy I’ll get outside and enjoy this beautiful day. I hope you all enjoy yours.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Maggie

      Thank you for weighing in and sharing your view. Your hesitation to wade in on discussions about poor female behavior is understandable, and it’s something I want very much to address and correct. Thanks for your patience, I hope that over time we can restore a more constructive dynamic.

  • Fingenieur

    > I don’t know enough about the Scandinavia countries to weigh in on that. We do have some Nordic regulars here – perhaps they will. In any case, I have heard the SMP in several of those countries is warped and dysfunctional. I wouldn’t be surprised if we could find some measures that show less “thriving” in the Nordic countries.

    You called?

    I would say, that a society needs a pillar which is not necessarily marriage. I have no doubt there are societies where it is so, but to think we’d have figured out an optimum there is naive at best. We can be pretty certain that the “emancipated” society is worse than the “patriarchal marriage” -society, but don’t think there ain’t other options.

    With Nordics, the “strong social contract” is the key concept. That requires huge amounts of trust between citizens. On the other hand, one can manage being a single parent (though it’s really hard. they usually live pretty poor and climbing up in socioeconomical ladder becomes near impossiblity) and there is no payoff in divorce (no alimonies, capped child support). So you kind of have not much other (hidden) reasons or incentives for marriage than genuine attraction.

    Marriage is seen even more as an outdated construct and legal burden (they are lobbying a gender neutral marriage law pretty strongly in Finland, and voices for number-neutral law are rising as well…) There are couples living together ’till the old age and raising children without marriage. Then again, increasingly more single parents as well. Not to say that children from single households do not have similar problems than the ones in more marriage oriented cultures, but it’s genuinely not that big of a deal.

    Then again, I’d say there’s some amount of apathy rising within the society. People need closeness and intimate interaction to feel good. Secluding oneselves and valuing independence, hard work and simple contentment has been always characteristic within Nordics. A number of indicators (such as suicide stats) state the Nordics tend to be quite depressed.

    I’d hold the claim that declining marriage would be the reason as it has been pretty much always like this. But healthy people interaction, with marriage, families, kids or not would definitely help out a lot of people. In some ways, the social democracy builds those things (there should be a people who gives a fuck when you need one), but it does not always work out like that.

    One other thing (besides healthy human relationships) I’ve been gotten way more seriously aware in economical and social success is the religious values shared by society. In Europe, more than geographical location – Germany, Britain, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark etc. have a pretty good injection of protestant ethics in their history. Most places are very Lutheran or Calvinistic.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Fingenieur

      Thanks for explaining a bit more about Nordic culture and society. It’s interesting that you mention Calvinism. I am wondering how feelings and beliefs about marriage in the U.S. reflect our Puritan origins.

  • Desiderius

    You’re not getting young men to comment because they’re in a no-win situation. Most young men are both (a) not getting any (love or sex) and (b) under the impression that everyone else is. Susan has commented on this phenomenon before. For a typical young man to comment on his experiences with dating and relationships is to “out” himself as a loser, so young men occupy themselves with other interests.

    For an example of what happens when a young man does offer his perspective, see this:

    http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2012/feb/02/lilienfeld-in-the-frosh-pit/

    Notice how his views are received, especially among his young female peers, in the comments.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      Wow, thanks for sharing that link to the Yale Daily News. I cannot believe those young Amanda Marcottes were so abusive to the poor guy. And this:

      The simple algorithm is this: we hook up with the guys we are attracted to but who are not nice/good guys, and we are friends with the guys who are nice/good guys whom we are not attracted to. When there is a man who is a nice/good guy AND we are attracted to him, then we want a boyfriend.

      Which is why there are no boyfriends.

  • Rum

    Re Nordic Places.
    A favorite game of “progressives”is to start by saying, “Assume this is Norway”, and then present some welfare scheme. Nordic people have always been pretty successful in a variety of schemes. Look at the ones in America. Swedes/Norwegians, etc. have always had great stats and are, fwiw, doing better here than their counterparts in the old countries.
    I have been over there. Unmarried does not often mean completely un-partnered. Social policies have nearly eliminated the incentives to actually, formally marry but that does not mean they lack for family support. They tend to live in one place their whole lives and bio-dads are not normally excluded in any way.
    We do not live in Norway and we are not going to. Besides, we are rapidly turning into Greece, imho.

  • Fingenieur

    @Maggie:
    > “How many people besides Susan caught this? Is this what the HUS community really believes, that 50% of woman are decent and 100% of men are? If so, what’s the point of even talking to one another?”

    It’s not that 100% of men are decent, but by the standards women tend to look at things, the amount of decent men is significantly smaller than amount of decent women.

    Name pretty much any stat. Women are more healthier than men, they are more fit, they have better education, they have surpassed male incomes in fertile age-groups, there are more living women than living men in most western countries… I’m pretty ready to claim that women also surpass most males in the empathetic and communication skills so many people tend to seek.

    So, how you define a “decent” man or a woman? It might be a concrete checklist or a vague line in the water. It’s still pretty safe assumption that there are less men beyond that line than women pursuing them (and holding superior qualities by themselves).

    Unless you are a bisexual or a lesbian, women simply can’t afford to perform even slight hypergamous preference in 21st century. A boatload of women can’t afford to couple even from their “own level”. That’s the ugly math. It’s the men who will marry “up” if there will be marrying at all. The realities are now that the women should stay at work and let the men take the children and the house. Or more likely, do both-in-work approach. But just cut the crap that a man should be something in ones imagination. If you catch a good mate, great, you are lucky. You won in the game where odds are stacked against you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Unless you are a bisexual or a lesbian, women simply can’t afford to perform even slight hypergamous preference in 21st century. A boatload of women can’t afford to couple even from their “own level”. That’s the ugly math. It’s the men who will marry “up” if there will be marrying at all. The realities are now that the women should stay at work and let the men take the children and the house. Or more likely, do both-in-work approach. But just cut the crap that a man should be something in ones imagination. If you catch a good mate, great, you are lucky. You won in the game where odds are stacked against you.

      True story.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Susan,

    Do you see what you did there? You assumed that 100% of men are decent.

    Nope. That was a hypothetical situation, based on the notion that there are “good men/women” and “bad men/women.” When we break people down in binary terms like that, we then have to assume that some women are ending up with “bad men,” and some men are ending up with “bad women.” I did not claim anything about the goodness or badness of men. I was discussing women in the terms that JM has already used to define them. But you can see that this kind of binary thinking isn’t particularly helpful.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      Nope. That was a hypothetical situation, based on the notion that there are “good men/women” and “bad men/women.”

      OK. I’ve read it again, and you focus on the misfortune of men winding up with crappy women, which several here have. You did not appear to consider women winding up with crappy men, which also happens. There are women here who have been royally screwed over, yet we hear of it once, if at all. And I can’t think of a single case where they used their experience to justify saying that all men are assholes, or to compare dating men to playing Russian roulette, with a 5/6 chance you’ll be blowing your brains out.

      But you can see that this kind of binary thinking isn’t particularly helpful.

      I certainly can. It’s more useful to talk in terms of specific behaviors we may object to, like infidelity, or narcissism, for example. And then to refrain from generalizing about which sex does more of it. The way I see it, a lot of what’s going on here is just people expressing their pain. The temptation to blame “the other” is very strong. It may even be justified. But it is not helpful. It is a stage of grief, but one that is toxic if one stays too long there. That’s what I think Jesus is saying, and I agree with him.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Maggie,

    How many people besides Susan caught this? Is this what the HUS community really believes, that 50% of woman are decent and 100% of men are? If so, what’s the point of even talking to one another?

    I’m sorry my comment upset you. That is not at all what I meant, and I definitely don’t believe that 100% of men are flawless, while only 50% of women are worthy of relationships. I was commenting on JM’s tendency to place people in categories, and showing that binary thinking is not helpful (no one comes to HUS thinking he/she is a “good” or “bad” relationship prospect, and in real life, no one wants to entertain the possibility that he/she is inherently bad for relationships).

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    Not “inherently” bad for a relationship; bad if her desires and behaviors are not likely to make for a healthy relationship with a man.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,

    I play for Team People–Team Good People, really.

    Yes, as does Susan. She wants the sluts and the assholes (the 20%) to end up together and leave the rest of us in peace. The problem with that position is twofold: 1) you can’t make a statement about the goodness or badness of a single individual, and 2) there are a lot of non-sluts and non-assholes who aren’t necessarily good relationship prospects.

    You and Susan also have fundamentally different ideas about what makes a “good woman,” I suspect. She advises men to stay away from sluts. You advise men to stay away from the ladies who fall for assholes. Those are two different metrics by which to label a “bad relationship prospect.” Both are binary though.

    Fair enough. I’m a guy. I’m doing the same from my end. I’m not sure what your issue with that really is. That’s for you to work out though.

    I have zero issue with you, from a personal standpoint. When I made that qualifying statement, I was really anticipating that someone was going to come back and say that I was assuming men are saints. And sure enough, they did.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    1) you can’t make a statement about the goodness or badness of a single individual

    Who can’t? And why not?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    She advises men to stay away from sluts. You advise men to stay away from the ladies who fall for assholes.

    I’d advise relationship-seeking men to avoid both.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    there are a lot of non-sluts and non-assholes who aren’t necessarily good relationship prospects.

    I want to clarify this statement in the context of what I’ve already said about “good” and “bad” relationship prospects. If we’re going to use those terms (and we have, extensively), we have to recognize that our metrics (slut/non-slut and asshole/non-asshole, or girl-who-falls-for-asshole/girl-who-does-not-fall-for-asshole, or whatever) are not accurate.

    IMO, every person can be a good relationship prospect.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    IMO, every person can be a good relationship prospect.

    But we’re not discussing whether or not they “could” be. We’re talking about people in terms of what they are right now. Can people change? OF COURSE. Nobody here has questioned that. At least I haven’t.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Who can’t? And why not?

    No one. Because no person has the same definition of “good” and “bad.” And when one person assumes that his definition is better than all the others, we fall down a very slippery slope.

    Also because people are complex. They cannot be defined by one aspect of their behavior. I’ll use myself as an example. I fell for assholes in the past. I also loved college, became obsessed with map research, studied abroad twice, met some guy one summer and fell in love, am so loyal it’s painful to say goodbye to friendships, have a mom who’s my best friend, etc. etc. In other words, that first part doesn’t define me. And it shouldn’t define anyone.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      people are complex. They cannot be defined by one aspect of their behavior.

      I agree with this. However, people’s behavior often reflects certain tendencies, based on personality traits. Rather than define someone by one aspect of their behavior, it’s more useful to look at patterns of behavior. In selecting a mate, it’s critically important to do so, in fact.

      Some of the red flags for determining whether someone is worthy of commitment tend to be found together in the same individuals. For example, promiscuity, casual sex without condoms, and very heavy drinking may all reflect a possible desire for novelty and high tolerance of risk. Of course, I personally believe that many young women engaging in those behaviors would be immensely relieved to give them up, and might make excellent partners. But I can’t blame men who observe them and decide it’s not worth the risk, or who feel turned off by their behavior. That’s the natural consequence of their actions.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    But we’re not discussing whether or not they “could” be. We’re talking about people in terms of what they are right now.

    Yeah I am too. A girl who fell for an asshole two months before she got in a relationship is not doomed to fail in said relationship, simply because she fell for the asshole.

    Besides, what makes an asshole? That’s a different discussion, one that would also require us to think in binary terms.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I’d advise relationship-seeking men to avoid both.

    Then those men are fucked. The amount of women who have low partner counts AND who have never fallen for what you would call an “asshole” is very small indeed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The amount of women who have low partner counts AND who have never fallen for what you would call an “asshole” is very small indeed.

      Are you saying that nearly all women have had sex with assholes? Because no matter how you slice the data, that is absolutely not possible.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Susan,

    You aren’t playing for Team Woman, exactly, but you are playing for Team Good Woman.

    Do you see any male commenters playing for Team Bad Woman?

    No, but I do see a lot of male commenters playing for Team Man. I’d like to think that I play for Team Woman, to be honest. I just want women, as a whole, to improve. I’m still working on my own bratty behavior and seeing good results in my relationship.

    The problem, as I’ve said many times now, is we’ve started thinking in binary terms. I totally understand that you don’t want women to come by and think all women are bad… that is also not what I want when people stop by my blog. But there’s no such thing as a Good Woman who doesn’t need to improve herself, and there’s no such thing as a Bad Woman who can just forget it. The problem is when you divide people up like that, they start wondering which category fits them. And whether or not they need to fix themselves.

    The question is not whether or not a person needs to improve, it’s “What can I do to improve?” If I’m not mistaken, that’s what you’ve always been about, and you’ve done a good job.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      Just to be clear, I want us to drop all labels, and all assumptions! You may recall a time last summer when I had to ban talking about sluts. We can talk about promiscuous behavior without arguing what percentage of women are riding the alpha cock carousel, can’t we? Do we really need to debate whether “nice girls” are attracted to men with Dark Triad traits? Or whether women have the right to say what makes them sexy?

      All of these debates are about control. We know that the people with the most control in this SMP are promiscuous women and highly desirable men. Everyone else has lost ground, and everyone would like to get some back. It’s understandable. But no one is going to get it back in this forum. So why don’t we all just live our lives? If you can snag a lovely woman worthy of wifing up by channeling your Machiavelli, go ahead. If it pisses you off that a woman won’t wear a miniskirt, or gains weight, don’t date her. If you don’t want to be part of a harem, don’t tolerate sharing. If you don’t want to risk being pumped and dumped, delay sex until you’re sure of his willingness to get exclusive.

      Sorry for the rant, I just don’t really understand the need for the power struggle. It’s not working.

  • Jackie

    This “Good vs Bad” dichotomy makes me kinda uncomfortable, personally. People are so much more than that.

    The way I look at it is, “Where have you been, where are you going?”

    I would hate to be judged for being in a relationship where I was cheated on. I made the mistake and learned my lesson: Watch vigilantly for red flags!

    Olive and Jesus, would either of you liked to be judged at points earlier in your past? Even if you didn’t care if you were being deemed “relationship worthy”?

    Wherever people are at, they are doing the best they can and if they could do better, they would. That’s my belief, at least. Maybe they want to be moving into the “relati0nship worthy” category, but it’s hard to do that when someone has deemed you a bad prospect. My 3 cents :)

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Jackie,
    That is exactly what I’ve been saying. :-) There’s no such thing as good-bad, but we’ve set ourselves up with those terms lately.

  • Jackie

    @Olive
    Hi Olive!
    This is really interesting: I have been reading a really interesting book right now, a metaphysical reading of the words of Jesus (C :) ) Anyway, the text “Judge not, lest ye be judged” means we not only have to stop judging others to be bad. But that we also must stop seeing other people as “good.” In order to truly possess the enlightened mind (of Jesus in this case), we must rise above the duality and see through a monistic (monism? oneness? sorry, can’t find right word) prism.

    Anyway :)

    PS: Olive, have you ever thought of doing counselling when you are done with your degree? I think you would be *fantastic* at understanding male clients.

  • http://jabootu.net/?p=4714 Pip

    @SW, I’m sad to see the team mentality take off here as it has in other outlets. I guess that drives people away. As long as somebody takes responsibility for their actions, words and/or their lack of actions and words, and the results these reap, that’s a good thing. In my observation, moralistic sermonizing for one’s ‘team’ is mostly counterproductive.

    I’m sure you can notice that all these Fabulous Single Woman and, on the other side, the more chest-beating MRA-types write a lot about how happy, moral and right they are. You also notice that they spend about half of their time attacking people in the opposite camp. So, the net result is that both sides are willing to behave in such a way that will make the other side even more obnoxious by egging them on, simply so that each side can feel morally superior and advertise itself as morally superior.

    This strikes me as “ressentiment” as defined by Nietzsche, to whom you can look for more info. It also bears a close relationship to passive/aggressive behavior and I believe that it sometimes blossoms into Borderline Personality Disorder offline.

    I oppose this closed-off mentality. Because I oppose this closed-off mentality, I avoid contributing to its spread. That means that I avoid these moralistic shouting games which spread the closed-off mentality disease.

    Instead, I see and applaud the more reasoned commentary here describing the disease, maybe in the hopes that people will see it for what it is and gain some measure of immunity. Once people begin to recover from the disease, they learn that his or her attitudes and behaviors are a BIG, BIG part of what keeps other people away and keeps them unhappy. As they learn how not to be “morally superior” sermonizers for their team, they begin to get along with other people. But they don’t learn this by having the shouting done AT them. This only reinforces their behavior.

    Most people don’t like to learn this, because another symptom of the closed-off mentality disease is to believe that they are wholly innocent victims, unfairly persecuted by others. All some want to do is scream or rant or whine and try to claw the eyes out of anyone who tells they are responsible for their own lives and happiness, because they’d rather be miserable for the rest of their lives as long as they have someone to blame than to re-evaluate their own self-image. White & Nerdy is an example of this.

    These moral constructs people use to define their shortcomings as virtues bewilder me. If they didn’t have these moral constructs and blame-channels and other re-routings of negative internal energy, they would see how empty they currently are—by their own design–and what they are missing out on. “You can’t hold a man down without staying down with him.” B.T. Washington.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Pip

      Epic comment, there, thanks.

  • WarmWoman

    Jackie

    I wholeheartedly agree, Jackie. I don’t believe in minimizing how our early experiences condition us to get involved in those relationships or poor decision making in the first place.

    When I first joined HUS, there were two male posters that told me how my posts had caused “alarm bells in their head.” One man even said that women with my past have lower relationship value. Wow, I didn’t know we could assign value to human beings as if they were gucci bags.

    I had left HUS temporarily, because I felt like people were wagging their fingers at me saying “You aren’t worthy of a healthy relationship!”. I realized this is total garbage, and I can’t see myself the way how two random male strangers see me. There’s a chance those men were projecting their experiences with other women on me.

    Nobody has the right to dictate what someone else deserves in terms of relationships and happiness.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Warm Woman

      I’m sorry you received that reception, and I’m glad you came back.

  • Mike C

    Well….I received an e-mail from someone related to a comment that appears to have been deleted (still in my e-mail). Out of respect for Susan, I won’t quote any of it. I rapidly skimmed both some of the comments and my e-mail subscription to the comments. I’ve got about a million different thoughts racing right now, some of which I need to decide if they are politically smart to make.

    Most importantly, I’ve realized time is my most precious resource. On some level, any reduced commenting from me is due to that fact. My trading is my #1 priority. Anything that interferes with that has to be curtailed.

    I think I discovered HUS from Roissy maybe…I don’t remember. I just remember reading a comment from this Susan Walsh person, and thinking she is smart and balanced….I’ll check out her blog. I ended up being a more active participant than I probably originally intended

    From Day 1 to INCLUDING now I’ve thought the mission of this blog is an excellent one to counterbalance then nonsense that comes from the MSM, and sites like feministing, etc. Susan is doing good work here and I admire her for that.

    That said, there are a few items I am going to try and constructively criticize on that relate to the male commenting. There seems to be an increased level of denying that “on the ground reality” most guys face. The comment from fugitive, the 24-year old guy either here or on the other thread speaks to that. Sure, NAWALT. Now we once recognize that, can we move past the BS, and realize that way too many women are.

    There are certain threads that get me worked up. The Defining Sexy is one. There is almost a sort of petulance to any male preferences or desires.

    Dialogue amongst the sexes. Truthfully, I’m not sure how much value this has. Over the last few years, I’ve come more to believe that it is pissing in the wind. For every 1 Olive who is willing to hear the male view, and more importantly decide if it warrants some level of personal transformation, there are 9 other women ready to tell me or some other guy to SHUT THE FUCK UP both figuratively and literally (a female commenter here literally told me that).

    I’m sure the guys commenting here have their various motivations. Some sincerely believe dialogue is proeductive and may lead to some change, some might see is as their Internet hangout.

    A guy who is frustrated really has two roads to choose from beyond just worthless bitching and venting. Go MGTOW and get on with your life, or work on self-development/transformation to make yourself attractive either for short-term sex opportunities or long-term relationship opportunities.

    Regarding quality versus non-quality and good versus bad women, some women just don’t get it and never will. It isn’t just about how many dicks you’ve sucked or taken in your vag. Its about how you view men and a man in your life. There are women here like Olive, Hope, Jackie, Anacaona that you get a clear sense they are very devoted, loyal, and GIVING to the man they are with or eventuall will be with. There are other “good girls” who come across as very ME oriented, its about what some guy can do for them. There is a aura of entitlement that oozes from their online comments.

    I can’t relate to some of Deti’s and Ted D thoughts because I don’t have kids, and don’t plan on having any. I really have no stake in how this plays out. Although it may sound selfish, I really don’t care. I’m really just a disinterested observer although I always have empathy for the frustrated beta chump.

    Often, I will reread and edit comments before I post them. I’ve got to run so this is my unedited thoughts. I may or may not chime in later with more depending on my time constraints.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      I received an e-mail from someone related to a comment that appears to have been deleted (still in my e-mail). Out of respect for Susan, I won’t quote any of it.

      Don’t hold back on my account. I imagine you must mean Anacaona’s original comment, as it’s the only one I deleted. I deleted it (and told her so) for two reasons. Since she mentioned four men specifically, I did not feel it was appropriate to get into details here about why certain people have been commenting less, and what they’ve said. For example, in your emails to me you have indeed expressed what you said here – less time available, and a real frustration with female commenters who you don’t think “get it.” I told you that I understood completely, and that you would always be welcome. There is a story that goes along with each of the commenters Anacaona mentioned, but they are not for public consumption. Additionally, Anacaona referred to a sort of MRA conspiracy to bring down HUS, which I don’t really believe is accurate. I do believe that the Atlantic exposure really pissed some people off (DBJ!), and several bloggers started gunning for me at that point. Whatever.

      There seems to be an increased level of denying that “on the ground reality” most guys face.

      With respect, I believe that you are one of the men here who tends to generalize a lot about the male experience. The truth is, on three of the most contentious threads here – Giving it up on the third date at the latest, the nature of male sexuality, and defining sexy, you had strong opinions that were shared by some, but by no means all, of the men. That is hardly surprising – the reality that most guys face depends on a lot more than the SMP overall. It depends on who they’re pursuing, how they’re presenting, their behavior in a relationship, their childhood, their adolescence, their hormonal makeup, and many other factors. Fugitive can only speak of fugitive’s experience, and you can speak of your own when you “give evidence.” It’s the hearsay and the extrapolation to “all women” that becomes problematic, and you can hardly be surprised that the women here do not welcome those pronouncements.

      For every 1 Olive who is willing to hear the male view, and more importantly decide if it warrants some level of personal transformation, there are 9 other women ready to tell me or some other guy to SHUT THE FUCK UP both figuratively and literally (a female commenter here literally told me that).

      One commenter said that. In 2+ years. I do not believe that 9 out of 10 women hear are telling men to STFU. Many women here have stuck around for months on end, hearing a great deal of the male view, which is often delivered as a stinging rebuke of female nature. HUS is not, and never was, the place where you digest the red pill. The women commenting here are in no way qualified to counsel any man through that process, nor should they have to.

      Everyone here is seeking some kind of transformation. Some are focused on self-development, seeing the transformation as personal. Others are focused on changing the environment, i.e. women, seeing the necessary transformation as something external. The problem is, we have total control over the former, and no control over the latter.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Jackie,
    Good stuff! I haven’t been overly religious since high school, but I was always a huge fan of the sermon on the mount. Doesn’t it include that verse about the splinter and the log?

    PS: Olive, have you ever thought of doing counselling when you are done with your degree? I think you would be *fantastic* at understanding male clients.

    Thanks! My mom was a therapist for several years, and after hearing her stories, I don’t think I could handle it. I’ve actually thought about getting my PhD later in life, after I have kids. I’m big on research, and I’ve always sort of wanted to teach (but I don’t think I could grab the attention of grade-school kids lol).

    In the meantime, I’m off to the nonprofit world after graduation.

  • WarmWoman

    “There are other “good girls” who come across as very ME oriented, its about what some guy can do for them. There is a aura of entitlement that oozes from their online comments.”

    I’m still a bit confused on how to know if you come off as entitled and me-oriented.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    We do not live in Norway and we are not going to. Besides, we are rapidly turning into Greece, imho.

    ??? Would you care to talk about Greece? How are they doing?

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Mike C

    I’m sure the guys commenting here have their various motivations. Some sincerely believe dialogue is proeductive and may lead to some change, some might see is as their Internet hangout.

    Agreed, to the former. I comment if/when I think some dialogue is productive. This is why I often comment early in a discussion; the further along it goes, the faster it descends into a more binary (as Olive astutely termed) confrontration. Comments become a cacophony of individual voices shouting at one another.

    A guy who is frustrated really has two roads to choose from beyond just worthless bitching and venting. Go MGTOW and get on with your life, or work on self-development/transformation to make yourself attractive either for short-term sex opportunities or long-term relationship opportunities.

    It is possible to go MGTOW and do the latter, too. I work on self-improvement all the time. I improved my health a great deal in the past few years. Taught myself some new study habits and technical skills.
    I did this for myself though. In the past, it would have been done to make myself more attractive to women. Which is the wrong motivator and far too imbalanced. (Besides, it doesn’t work anyway.)

    Regarding quality versus non-quality and good versus bad women, some women just don’t get it and never will. It isn’t just about how many dicks you’ve sucked or taken in your vag. Its about how you view men and a man in your life.

    +1. Most definitely. There are far too many women who view men via the dual lenses of hypergamy and the apex fallacy. Even if you don’t personally do that (kind of sad that I must include this preface!), we men encounter those who do every day.

    And then we wind up looking like gum on the bottom of a shoe. We’re flat-out tired of being scraped off on the sidewalk edge.

    I would very much like to be on Team Good People. See friends, family, even strangers form happy & lasting relationships. The point I have made – and will continue to make, no matter who tries to misappropriate my words – is that I CANNOT do this in a social context and leave it there. A great many good men and good women are rightly frustrated with the SMP as it is.

    But the difference here is, many more men than women are aware of the LEGAL side of the SMP as well. And that diminishes our interest in having further dialogue. When you can be arrested for simply talking to a woman in public? It’s a lot easier to just stay home.

  • warhammer axe

    A woman would be very fortunate to get with you.

    *A man who usually sees life like this has had success with women. He’s not blind, in fact he sees things quite clearly…and with no benefit for him, he speaks from logic, not feelings.

    I think it’s healthy to come out of the manosphere rabbit hole every so often and take a look at the blue sky.
    *
    It is…then you realize the sky isn’t blue, it’s merely the filtering of ultraviolet rays from the sun that diffuse through the ozone layer and offer some protection against the true strength of the sun.

    Sorry, Morpheus, we’ve been down the rabbit hole you’ve offered us and the blue sky is just an illusion. It’s only temporary, subject to change on a whim. Many men have no problem with women being single by choice, it actually frees men to follow their own path. Why earn a lot of money to impress a woman when you can live simply? Why jump through hoops to get a woman’s attention when it doesn’t matter to you? Why spend time with women who have a list of conditions before you prove ‘worthy’ of them when you can just ‘Go Your OWN Way’?

    Also, if women want educated men to marry, they might want to start saving up for men, asking schools to make education interesting to men, creating male scholarships and making college a logical choice. Otherwise, it won’t be by choice, because you’ll have NO choice.

    There are many good and lonely people in this world, all hoping to connect. It’s not impossible.
    *
    First question to ask- what’s in it for me?
    Then act accordingly.

    WarHammer Axe

  • Desiderius

    JM and Olive,

    “She advises men to stay away from sluts. You advise men to stay away from the ladies who fall for assholes.

    I’d advise relationship-seeking men to avoid both.”

    Pls continue this conversation, I think you’re getting close to hitting the nail on the head.

    My two (longer comment to follow): Many savvy younger women (especially those talking to Susan) have in fact stopped falling for assholes. What they were in fact falling for in those assholes were the promiscuity cues those assholes gave off (which appealed to their base instincts – promiscuity cues = sexy sons).

    What they have not stopped doing is screening out men for not providing those promiscuity cues (the primary cue being extraordinarily high comfort-level around women that arouse them). By they I mean way beyond the 20% of “bad girls” that Susan has retreated to, more specifically the top 20% of the MMP (including women seeking LTR’s who may be squeamish about marriage) whose failure to assort is driving all the heartache among young men and everyone else farther down the scale.

    The other piece is that so many women in their 30s (both single and non-single) instead of stopping have declared full-speed ahead on both falling for assholes and screening out non-assholes that they’re drowning out the behavior of their younger sisters on the over-30 male radar.

    Bottom line:

    It’s the screening out of men on the basis of non-promiscuity cues that ultimately drives the anger/judging/resignation on the part of men of all ages. It is fully justified and needs fixing yesterday.

  • Desiderius

    “+1. Most definitely. There are far too many women who view men via the dual lenses of hypergamy and the apex fallacy. Even if you don’t personally do that (kind of sad that I must include this preface!), we men encounter those who do every day.”

    Here’s how it works, exaggeration for effect:

    (1) Men are pigs (my Womyn’s Studies prof had the stats to back it up! I have stories!)

    (2) This man is not acting like a pig

    (3) He must think we’re already in a relationship – and here we just met. Creepy!

    The winning strategy becomes to act like a pig, then allow oneself to be reformed – passive voice intended and essential.

    If you don’t believe me, then why is there a dating service for professional women called “It’s Just Lunch”? Men have to pay the service $1,900 for the privilege of not being assumed to be too desperate/forward.

  • Desiderius

    Too many men attempt to emotionally escalate. That is as big a turn-off for women as a woman who physically escalates is to men.

    A more severe problem is the reluctance to emotionally escalate among women, which is as bad as the (beta) male who is reluctant to physically escalate. It is perceived as lack of interest in either case and initiates a least interest cycle.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      A more severe problem is the reluctance to emotionally escalate among women, which is as bad as the (beta) male who is reluctant to physically escalate. It is perceived as lack of interest in either case and initiates a least interest cycle.

      I agree. Women definitely need to assume more emotional risks, since they penalize men for taking them. This goes against what most women have been taught, and it’s a battle I’m waging.

      I feed badly. Today a young woman called me up and told me that she confessed her real feelings for a guy she spent time with all fall. She thought everything was going really well, but they hadn’t talked about the relationship in any definite way. Still, he was attentive, emotionally intimate, etc. She broached the topic, heart pounding. He said, “I would NEVER date you.” She is devastated. I encouraged her to take that action. I think it’s good she did, as she was obviously wasting her time. But she feels so humiliated. Of course, that’s nothing new for guys, but getting women to take that on is very, very difficult.

  • Fingenieur

    “But the difference here is, many more men than women are aware of the LEGAL side of the SMP as well.”

    Also, the chance of a person being on the map with legislation, individual rights (and lack off) and general awareness of the environment likely increases significantly the smarter, wiser and more experienced people get. Lower class can’t get married and the upper class gets smart enough to not marry…

  • Maggie

    @ Fingenieur

    I agree with your points that women are excelling over men in health, education and employment. It seems every year men are falling behind and this concerns me very much. I think where I may have a difference of opinion with many posters is that I don’t think that this can only be blamed on the evils of feminism.

    I can’t speak for Gen X but I think a lot of the problems young Gen Y men are having can be blamed on their addiction to computer games. I see it in my son and his friends and in the larger sphere of the university town where I live. The young women study and work hard and the young men….. play computer games every second they can. These young men are good looking and smart and I don’t think it has anything to do with rejection by women. Its an addiction that needs to be fed, so instead of going out and meeting women the guys stay in the basement and spend hours feeding the monkey. Maybe this is the equivalent of the Japanese Herbivore?

  • Desiderius

    As for the politics…

    From the rise of liberal civilization to roughly Susan’s generation, the driving force in the MMP (no LTR caveat necessary) was the maximization of the number of people who could and would form strong, healthy families. This required an energetic societal effort to keep the MMP and SMP in as much alignment as possible through such means as the outlawing of polygamy, for instance. The “maximization of the number” was the liberal, and, yes, progressive, piece and accounts for the fact that this effort was entirely non-controversial across the political spectrum.

    With the advent of the overpopulation scare (see Ehrlich’s Population Bomb, 1968) the elites, while maintaining their own family formation norms, set about undermining those norms for those further down the pecking order. We can now see that the result has been a bifurcation between the MMP and SMP, which is now near total on the male side due to the greater buy-in among women, for various reasons, of that norm undermining.

    This has been happening for a long time. The band Devo took their name from the devolution of sexual norms they saw happening around them in the 1970′s. Ironically, second-wave feminism may have contributed to a preservation of norms on the male side (see, for instance the widespread and unapologetic condemnation of Tiger Woods’ behavior) that the female side has not enjoyed. Men cannot “get away” with following our base instincts (except now, via internet porn) to nearly the extent that women can.

    This has not been a boon for women. Left without any moral (my apologies for employing profanity) framework for distinguishing between her base (meaning both pre-civilized and anti-civilization, which is what screening for promiscuity cues among men is) and higher instincts, many women are at a loss for determining what it is they want, let alone fulfilling those wants. The very idea of “higher” instincts seems somehow too judgmental, and depending on political allegiances, patriarchal.

    All it need mean though is that which is better for the individual considering herself from the perspective of a lifetime and in the context of the relationships that give her life meaning, including her relationship to her civilization itself. It means giving voice to something beyond her selfish gene alone, while taking care not to abnegate that self.

    Are there women already like that? Of course. Those who are struggling to be like that and those unaware of the option do need to hear much more strongly though from those who already are, who may be cowed by a fear of seeming too “judgmental” from balancing out those very loud voices, male and female, with other agendas entirely.

    The good news is that I see that already happening among the rising generation. That the problem has been around for a long time means that many among us are already working on and implementing solutions. Likewise, the population scare is being replaced by the “there won’t be enough workers to pay for my pension” scare among those who actually vote and/or enforce societal norms, so that is already changing too.

    That change will likely offer up its own challenges, but I’ve found solace in recognizing that despair is at its heart nothing more than arrogance. The future is not ours to know.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      The good news is that I see that already happening among the rising generation. That the problem has been around for a long time means that many among us are already working on and implementing solutions.

      That is heartening to hear. Your students are Milennials – it will be very interesting to see what choices they make. I appreciate your working with young people – they face a multitude of challenges.

  • Desiderius

    Maggie,

    “I can’t speak for Gen X but I think a lot of the problems young Gen Y men are having can be blamed on their addiction to computer games.”

    Gen Y women have their own issues with technology on the facebook/texting side. There hasn’t been a technology this disruptive since the printing press, and its to be expected that people will struggle to adapt. The 5-18-year-olds I work with are already showing signs of adapting well.

    As for falling behind in education and employment. Recognize that young women are not in fact more productive, rather they are better at stamping their credential cards and buying into systems that reward credential-stamping over performance.

    It’s entirely possible that young men are developing their brains much more effectively via computer games than women are following every last rule handed down by an increasingly obsolete educational system.

  • Fingenieur

    Feminism is at most indirectly responsible for the decline of boys. It has failed badly in the “equality” premise by assuming that men have privilege as given, and then ignoring their issues. And the industrial-feminist-complex is a drifting mishulk incapable of correcting its course (the political feminism gets its support for helping women. Some corrections required for boys would need attacking some achieved privileges)

    Ahh, I shouldn’t ramble. That’s beside the point.

    But I have a problem with you attacking video games. The kids who played games 20-30 years ago THE MOST became the engineers, leaders and enterpreneurs of today. Gaming and all the related technical tinkering can be incredibly productive and stimulating. In addition it’s probably more fun than anything else. And people said the same things for us back then, how we could never achieve anything by just watching screens all day (and well, many of us are still struggling with relationships, though we’re killing it in the market).

    Now, kids can ruin themselves with just about anything. Video games are among the better addictions out there. There is probably no relationship that would make me abandon gaming. Though I’ve been asked (dumped her that minute).

    With games, it’s the women who are falling behind. It honestly is more social, creative, fun, intelligent and fulfilling to slay dragons in Azeroth with your friends than humiliating yourself in a random nightclub. We still hold lan-parties, guitar hero contests, demoscene-art and do all of that stuff. Sometimes with thousands of people attend a single event…

    And of course, maybe 5% women attendance.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Fingenieur

      Feminism is at most indirectly responsible for the decline of boys. It has failed badly in the “equality” premise by assuming that men have privilege as given, and then ignoring their issues.

      I disagree, I think the responsibility is very direct. The politically correct era of self-esteem curricula, and the reworking of academic instruction to prioritize female learning styles has been devastating to boys from kindergarten on. Direct competition is penalized as selfish (even in athletics!), recess periods are often eliminated, and conflict resolution includes a lot of “hugging it out.” Boys with excess energy are quickly diagnosed with ADD. The American educational system is designed for female supremacy.

  • christiankp

    I think we have the same problems with low marriage rate in the Scandinavian countries as you have in US and I think it has the same detrimental effect as in US. However, at least Sweden is not caught in the perfect storm of the disintegration of families and great debts as you are in US because Sweden reformed its economy in the 1990’s when the living standard in Sweden fell dramatically. Norway is so special because of the oil so anything goes in Norway. Denmark has great problems, mainly because the former government spent too much money on getting women employed in the welfare state.

    Maybe one of the big differences between US and Scandinavia is that our system is not as harsh on dads undergoing divorce, although the women will almost always get custody. Women never get alimony – it does not exist – and the amount divorced men should pay to their children is smaller. More and more couples get shared custody, thereby men do not need to pay anything. However, I find this arrangement a form of governmental sanctioned child abuse.

    Last, but not least. No man goes to prison for being deadbeat. We have laws for domestic violence to in the Scandinavian countries and they may look as harsh as your VAWA, but due to the extraordinary incompetence of the police almost no crimes are solved – and very few falsely accused men gets into prison in the same ways as in US. It is totally inconceivable to think that Scandinavian police should react with the speed and vigour that US police did with Strauss-Kahn. Just think of the case of Assange.

    So maybe the bitterness we see in Scandinavian males against females is not as intense as the bitterness we see in US males. But many men are bitter. And although I have been happily married for more than 30 year I myself was bitter – and occasionally I still am.
    I am a man, who has tried to serve my wife and my children as well as I could. I do not say that I did not fell short of what could have been anticipated, but I sincerely tried to do my best. In my work I have also constantly tried to help women and especially children as well as men. I have always thought that the main role of men was to provide a society in which women could raise children. I have been a stay at home dad, but I have also made a lot of money for my family (nearly 200K).

    Still in the eyes of feminist – and my government – I am still an oppressor – and according to them I should be killed, which is the message I get from the fact that a state sponsored theatre had put up a version of Valerie Solana’s SCUM-manifesto and this is celebrated by newspapers and media.

    This makes me bitter.
    Therefore I have stopped my carrier as we have no more mortgages and is now working part time earning a lot less money with the sole purpose of diminishing the tax-revenue that the state that is my enemy gets from me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @christiankp

      Thanks for that very informative comment. I have heard that Sweden is extremely feminist. Of course, Stieg Larsson appears to have been a strong feminist, and we are very aware of him, so that probably colors my impression.

  • christiankp

    Feminism is directly responsible for the decline of boys. Affirmative action has made it impossible for most men to compete with females. No matter how skilled you are you know that if a woman apply for the same job she will get it, unless the difference in skills are too big. So there is no reason for acquiring skills.
    Women has acquired an independence of men in their personal life not seen before in history. Women do not need men as providers, and for some reason many women make it very clear for men that we can f*ck off. They need us as a fish needs a bicycle. Why should you aspire to be a husband and provider under these circumstances. I se no reason unless you are among the top 30-50 % of males.
    The best thing to do as a young man is to opt out of society as much as you can, work as little as you can – and leave women to fend for themselves.
    This will eventually force poverty upon women, because women are not as independent on men as they believe. Imagine that a virus will kill all women overnight. This will be a tragedy and eventually mankind will die out, but men and boys will manage because it is men that keeps the infrastructure going, making the food, taking out the garbage and cleaning the water. I on the other hand men died overnight it would not take many days before women and girls began to starve and die from infectious diseases.
    It is the great tragedy of capitalism that it has made the services men do to women impersonal and hidden, making it very easy for insecure women to buy into the narcissistic lie that they can manage without men. Women may bolster their almost non-existing feeling of self-confidence for a short time – but is as p*ss*ng in your trousers to hold you warm – it eventually will turn out to be a very bad and self-defeating strategy.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    I feel like I’m living in Invasion of the Body Snatchers, where the reasonable, perceptive woman who ran this place has been replaced by high-strung dissembling. Even one of her most beloved blogging compatriots is not safe from being thrown under the bus.

    “During one male’s last visit to this blog, he stated that the women commenters here “fill me with rage.”

    You can identify me by name, everybody knows who you are talking about.

    But your quote is a misquote at best, mendacity (falsehood) at worst. I said that _the discussion_ filled me with rage – the discussion being that women don’t understand how ill-informed men are about how to attract women in the face of decades of “girls want a nice guy who will treat them well.” When this issue is brought up, women always chime in that despite being the more social and “empathic” sex they don’t really have any idea what turns them on, so it’s not their fault they’ve peddled a bunch of falsehoods to men who have sought their guidance. There’s plenty of “oops my bad, did it leave a mark? Sorry I guess…” and there’s usually a healthy dose of backhanded “if you can’t figure it out yourself you must be a loser” along with it (yourself a case in point).

    “He also stated that he has come to believe that success with women requires embracing the Dark Triad traits.”

    This is also not true. What I said was:

    “In light of this I’m just going to put this out there, to have strong inner game I think a guy has to have a little bit of narcissism going on. You have to believe in your ideals and that you are the embodiment of those ideals, and that despite the messaging of society and the expendability of your spermatozoa, that you ARE the prize and that every woman is lucky to meet you.

    I’ll admit that in the last month or two for me, I’ve developed that kind of attitude internally. I walk around town thinking I am the hottest, most interesting guy any woman I talk to will meet that day. For a guy who has cultivated humility most of his life, it’s a bit of an out-of-body experience. It’s like walking around with earplugs in, events don’t affect you the way they used to because your internal frame is much more stable than you are accustomed to.”

    This is a far cry from embracing the dark triad. Jesus Mahoney issued an immediate cosign. And on this point, the wise and enjoyable Stingray said “We want a man who respects himself enough to stand up to us. If it is a little narcissism in your personality that makes you put a stop to it, then it is what it is…[later comment]a little bit of narcissism is most often referred to as self respect.” For a guy who has grown up taught to be nice and deferential, developing more backbone feels like becoming a hardcore narcissist, even though it’s not.

    I’m not sure if you just skimmed my comment and it inflated in your mind into something that was a lot worse than what it was, or if you have built up some prior image that I’ve become a bad guy and the rest is confirmation bias, your mind trying to fit my words into your new perception of my persona.

    Mike C’s last point is germane, there’s a lot of denial of the male experience around here of late from “you must be aiming for girls out of your league” to “chicks don’t really dig jerks” to “well I’m not like that so your experience doesn’t really matter to me” to “game only attracs dirty bar sluts.” It’s started at the top with comments like “the threshold for dominance is not that high” and “most women today are satisfied with a guy who is just higher status than her.” Sure there are women like that, but for a man to base his strategic approach on this sort of bourgeois wishful thinking is ludicrous.

    You’ve long been concerned, with good reason, about the itinerant and laconic nature of female commenters. By the same token, I don’t know why you aren’t more concerned that some of your best regulars (including two of the women) have openly commented on your tone become less reasoned and more agenda-driven and male-hostile.

    One final point. For the life of me I don’t know why you keep engaging the hardcore, hostile wing of the Manosphere. You’re smart enough to know nothing good is going to come of it, no wholly convincing one side of the other’s. The most predictable outcome is a bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing.

    Are you just looking for a fight? Or is it a signalling mechanism, communicating to your readership that you’re fighting back against the Dark Side?

    The ironic thing is that I know through inter-blog interaction and private correspondence that a lot of those guys used to respect you even if they didn’t agree with you, and so you had an undercurrent of tacit support among most of those who were teaching guys the ways of life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      You can identify me by name, everybody knows who you are talking about.

      They didn’t, it was just one comment in a long thread. They do now. The truth is, your comment about being filled with rage has haunted me for three weeks. Rage has no place here. I’m sorry, but I can’t do it. I don’t want to provide a platform for male rage. You can vent at the Spearhead, or Darlock’s. Your rage robs me of my sleep at night. That’s not a hyperbolic statement, it’s the truth. My inability to deal with male rage online destroyed my holidays with my family. Consider that my shortcoming if you like. I don’t want to write a blog that attracts enraged people, and I certainly don’t want to be the cause of making people feel enraged. It makes me very sad, and it also frightens me.

      I do not object to a bit of narcissism here and there, being a prime example of it myself. Here is the comment I was referring to:

      It’s much more congruent to adopt the whole red pill at once – go out approaching like mad, push for sex, crush shit tests, assume she’s a slut, etc. You need to destroy the beta and then reintroduce it gradually. Anyway, the ability of women to forgive a reformed player seems infinite if he’s attractive (witness Kane and Jesus Mahoney) so I don’t see a lot of downside for a guy to take a break from his beta ways and see how the other half lives.

      In particular, I am incredibly disappointed and frustrated at the idea that you would push for sex and assume women are sluts. If that’s your plan, why even be a part of this community? Do you think that women readers welcome this “epiphany?” I guess you must agree, that was 1/29, the last day you commented here.

      Mike C’s last point is germane, there’s a lot of denial of the male experience around here of late from “you must be aiming for girls out of your league” to “chicks don’t really dig jerks” to “well I’m not like that so your experience doesn’t really matter to me” to “game only attracts dirty bar sluts.”

      I think that’s a gross mischaracterization of what has been going on here. I do not believe I have accused men of aiming out of their league. I have written numerous posts on women liking jerks and men with Dark Triad traits. I also suggested, based on considerable academic research, that certain women are more attracted to those traits than others. The men have been extremely invested in disputing that. Mike C’s experience as a bouncer trumps a study of 2,000 women in their 20s. I welcome personal anecdotes, but this goes much farther: “Your study is BS, everyone knows women lie in studies, a real man is telling you how it is, you need to listen.” I don’t recall anyone saying to any man that their experience doesn’t matter, in fact several women on the threads have now devoted many hours to offering to support to men who have recently swallowed the red pill and are struggling.

      By the same token, I don’t know why you aren’t more concerned that some of your best regulars (including two of the women) have openly commented on your tone become less reasoned and more agenda-driven and male-hostile.

      Are you accusing me of being hostile to hostile males? Or hostile to enraged men? Because I do not believe that my views can be characterized as male-hostile by any but the most extreme MRAs.

      In fact, I am very concerned that Anacaona sees HUS as going down the tubes. The loss of her respect is a serious blow, and as it was public it now provides fodder for you and undoubtedly others. (I don’t know who the other female is.)

      For the life of me I don’t know why you keep engaging the hardcore, hostile wing of the Manosphere.

      Because we share readers and they keep saying very objectionable things about women? Seriously, I do wish I’d ignored Darlock. It was folly to think I could engage his readers in any kind of fair discussion. I didn’t realize at that point how extreme his followers were. I felt compelled to speak out against Rollo, who clearly despises women, but you’re right. It wasn’t worth it.

      Of course, it’s hard to avoid the hardcore, hostile men who sometimes comment at HUS.

      Are you just looking for a fight? Or is it a signalling mechanism, communicating to your readership that you’re fighting back against the Dark Side?

      Oh, I am definitely fighting back against the Dark Side. I always have, actually. My first post that caught the manosphere’s attention was critical of Roissy and Roosh. It’s the response that has changed. I’ve seen the accusations flying that I “stole” the 80/20 concept from the Roissysphere when I shared it with Kate Bolick. No good deed goes unpunished, you know.

      The ironic thing is that I know through inter-blog interaction and private correspondence that a lot of those guys used to respect you even if they didn’t agree with you, and so you had an undercurrent of tacit support among most of those who were teaching guys the ways of life.

      Nice parting shot. As I said, I haven’t changed.

  • anonymous

    Susan: “Are you saying that nearly all women have had sex with assholes? Because no matter how you slice the data, that is absolutely not possible.”

    I suppose it’s entirely possible if the definition of “asshole” is men who got laid outside of marriage. lol

  • Fingenieur

    “asshole” is also quite often a rationalization for a hookup with misaligned interests, instead of genuine assholishness.

  • anonymous

    Badger: “When this issue is brought up, women always chime in that despite being the more social and “empathic” sex they don’t really have any idea what turns them on, so it’s not their fault they’ve peddled a bunch of falsehoods to men who have sought their guidance.”

    Not having grown up in an environment where men (or women) were told this, is it possible that the reason many women don’t know what they want is because they too heard a lot of:
    “girls want a nice guy who will treat them well.”
    If they heard the same exact message, why does all of the blame fall on them?

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I’m pregnant :). Just though I should let you know guys.

  • J

    One reason you get to see a lot of “bitterness” (I simply see frank uncensored words) from guys like deti, Badger etc. (excluding Jesus who’s too invested in his white knight good guy’s schtick) here is because none of them gives a damn about attracting any of you girls, so they don’t care what flags their words may raise. I can assure you that you would not be able to detect any of this if you were on a date with one of them IRL.

    Candide, I’m not sure either one of us can speak from experience as to what it would be like to date any of the men you mention. I’m going to guess though that I’ve dated more men than you have, and I can tell you I’ve heard more than my share of bitter stories. They are, almost without fail, a turn-off. Even when a man truly deserves sympathy, he is more likely to get it if he appears to be someone who can deal with hardship with a sense of equanimity than if he appears to be someone who is going to make the next woman miserable for something the last woman did.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Anacaona, congrats!

  • Maggie

    “The kids who played games 20-30 years ago THE MOST became the engineers, leaders and enterpreneurs of today.”

    This is true and it’s not playing computer games per se that I think is a problem. My husband plays some war game a lot but he does it after he has gotten his work done and he reads, socializes and explores the world in other ways.

    I’m talking about the young man who does nothing outside of school but play games. He’s at home every night in his room or his parent’s basement playing. He doesn’t socialize, read, play sports and does enough school work to barely pass (or not). I see a lot of guys like this under 25.

    This didn’t seem to be so much of a problem ten or more years ago. Perhaps the level of sophistication and complexity of the games of the last five or six years has made it more likely he will become addicted.

    Maybe these young men will outgrow this. I sure hope so.

  • J

    JM#500

    That’s exactly right.

    All I would add is that people need to learn from situations in order to not repeat mistakes and to thus protect themselves. Hanging on to bitterness is not self-protective; it’s a people-repellant. It makes sure that good people will not want to get involved and give you the chance to hurt them.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Yohami
    Thanks! And no I’m not naming it Reneesme. Hubby already told me that he will bribe the doctor to morphine the hell out of me after the delivery and name her Mavis, Regan, Gertrude Benedicta, or some other really ugly name to out crazy me. :p

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Congrats Anacaona!! :-)

  • deti

    Mike C 535, Badger 559:

    A+. I’ll say nothing else.

  • WarmWoman

    @Susan Walsh

    To be honest, I’ve realized that everyone is entitled to their opinion and it’s not my business to change it. I also know there’s a danger of putting your stuff out there, and then expecting everyone to be nice about it. The fact is anyone can get triggered behind the computer.

    So, those men or women can feel how they feel or say what they need to say….The solution is to not let it bother me.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Maggie re: computer games,
    My brother is really big on computer games, and video games in general. He has been since he was 4 years old. When I say this, I mean the main thing he does outside of school is play games.

    However, that does not make him a loser. In fact, computer games give him the key to a social world to which I have zero access. Some of his best friends from high school still come over to LAN at our house. He meets people online. Once he even won a contest he attended in a nearby town.

    His grades are awesome and he’s pretty much guaranteed a job out of college (he’s a computer science major). Wish I could’ve said the same for myself…

  • anonymous

    Desiderius : “(1) Men are pigs (my Womyn’s Studies prof had the stats to back it up! I have stories!)”

    I want to make sure that I’m not misunderstanding.
    Is the meaning you’re using here of “men are pigs” = men are highly motivated by sex, are looking to attain it at the least cost possible and willing to take it if/whenever given the opportunity?

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Are you saying that nearly all women have had sex with assholes?

    Not at all. Jesus Mahoney has said women who fall for assholes don’t make good relationship prospects. Included are the virgins who fall for assholes (me, at one time). My point is not that all women are slutting it up with the assholes…. it’s more that most women have fallen for an asshole at some point or another. So to decide that women who don’t fall for assholes are the decent ones… I dunno. It’s too simplistic, and assumes that there are tons of women out there who have never fallen for assholes.

    And that assumes we all have the same definition of “asshole.”

  • J

    WW,

    Yes, holding on to bitterness and talking about it is bad for all the reasons you mention in both of your posts to me. Additionally, it show the new person that you are over, and may never get over, your ex.

  • WarmWoman

    J

    Private man wrote a great post on what to disclose to female friends about your dating life.

    What has been happening in my life is that a couple of my female friends and co-workers think they can say whatever they want about my ex now that I’ve broken up with him. I definitely don’t want to chime in the conversation by further complaining. It would be nice

    I was getting a pedicure tonight, and the lady also started to ask me about my previous relationships. I just said it didn’t work out, and she started dishing about her stuff as I smiled and listened. :)

  • Lindsay

    @christiankp:

    Feminism and similar social movements had the opportunity to do a lot of good by identifying/solving the myriad ways that rigid gender roles and stereotypes harmed both men and women and creating better opportunities for everyone. Instead, the philosophy went around the bend in the 60s and 70s with the second-wave radical feminist movement, driving a deep rift between men and women. I agree with you that certain current social and economic trends and expectations disproportionately hurt men, and that the most vocal feminists aren’t addressing them. There’s a lot of good that could be done, and few, if any people are stepping up to the plate.

    If affirmative action is indeed barring qualified men from certain jobs to achieve quotas, that is highly unfortunate, and I have seen it too. I worked a contract job very briefly at a large corporation that was clearly preferential to women and quite blatantly shitty to men (although all my other jobs have been overwhelmingly male-dominated). It made me irate – the men on my team bore the brunt of it, despite being the hardest-working people there. I encourage people who’ve experienced or seen discrimination to make the public aware of individual companies’ discriminatory actions via online reviews. Even the tightest company quota policy can’t trump a negative word-of-mouth reputation, and this company is now suffering because of its own poor reviews. Better yet, the (female) EVP, who enforced much of this discrimination, was finally fired with much fanfare late last year. Speaking up can really make a difference.

    My own experience, which may not be reflective of the norm, has been that working in a male-dominated field while female has been rough once I got to a certain level, even though my recruiters and headhunters tell me I’m in the top 2% of candidates. It hurts deeply, and it’s been tempting to conclude I’m actually just an incompetent, no-talent hack and should quit, but I’ve been told this experience is specific to my area, and not universal. While it’s obviously not identical to your situation, I’ve become familiar with what it’s like when you’re not allowed to play, and I do sympathize. I’m really sorry you feel marginalized, and I hope things look up for you, and that you find your happiness. That goes for everyone on HUS as well.

  • WarmWoman

    Oops, typo..I meant it would be nice if the people around you also supported the fact that talking about your ex constantly will not help you move forward. :)

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Susan,

    OK. I’ve read it again, and you focus on the misfortune of men winding up with crappy women, which several here have. You did not appear to consider women winding up with crappy men, which also happens. There are women here who have been royally screwed over, yet we hear of it once, if at all.

    I didn’t cover that because it wasn’t part of the conversation. I was specifically talking to JM, and addressing him because he’s been invalidating some of the guys’ experiences here as of late, telling them they’ll never get a GF if they’re so bitter.

    Having said that, you’re right, there are two sides to every story. I know various women IRL who’ve had cheating husbands. I find that despicable. That level of dishonesty is never acceptable, and I wouldn’t put up with it. I have a friend who’s BF has cheated twice. She’s marrying him next year. My reaction: WTF are you doing with your life???

    But as I said, I’m sure men have stuff to work on. I know some really awesome blogs that cover that (Athol Kay!)… if I’m not mistaken, you’re more interested in advising women. So am I.

    And I can’t think of a single case where they used their experience to justify saying that all men are assholes, or to compare dating men to playing Russian roulette, with a 5/6 chance you’ll be blowing your brains out.

    And the guys here haven’t really said that all men are crazy bitches. As for the Russian Roulette reference, that’s just a guy talking like a guy. I can’t picture women using such a metaphor, because women are interested in confrontational violence and warfare. That doesn’t mean they are better, they’re just different.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    And the guys here haven’t really said that all men are crazy bitches.

    Ooops. By men, I mean women.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @ Cheerful # 579

    Caught your ref to our fave Epictetus in last sentence (“some within our power, some not within our power”)

    Oh, and you said I could talk about oral sex. Well, not much to say at the moment, so how’s about a joke? Stop me if you’ve heard it.

    A year after her husband’s death his widow takes his ash urn down from the mantle piece. She pours them out and says to them:

    “Remember that beautiful house I wanted? I got it.”

    “Remember that Mercedes coupe I wanted? I got it.”

    “Remember that big diamond ring I wanted? I got it.”

    “Remember that blow job you wanted?” With that, she takes a deep breathe then blows his ashes all over her perfect marble floor.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      Wow, that’s some black humor. I tip my hat to you.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    because women are interested in confrontational violence and warfare.

    … because women aren’t interested …

    I’m full of typos today.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Congratulations Anacanoa! OMG awesome news!

  • Maggie

    @Olive

    If your brother’s grades are awesome he’ll probably be very successful at his job. It doesn’t look like there is any danger of the addiction I’m talking about.

    It’s rather like being an alcoholic. When it interferes with school or your job or your relationships then it is an addiction and a real problem. Just about all guys 25 and under play computer games. Most have no problem. I’m talking about a minority of young men, maybe five or ten percent, I don’t know, who have this addiction and it’s taking them out of the SMP. Actually, they never got in the SMP to begin with.

    I know that young women use a lot of social media and much of it is empty calories but I don’t see it interfering with their education or jobs or taking them out of the SMP.

  • J

    WW,

    I think you can actually say to your friends what you’ve said to me–you don’t want to get stuck in it by continually rehashing it and you don’t want to badmouth a man you once had feelings for. That should end the conversation.

  • WarmWoman

    J

    That’s what I plan on doing and thanks for re-iterating my thoughts. I also let them know that there were positives in the relationship that I was grateful for. Some things are just not meant to be.

    I also understand that some women’s denigrating words towards my ex are a reflection of their own lives and their view on men. Your words do betray you, after all.

  • Anonymous

    The Honda ad is infuriating. The girl misses the point of marriage. The ad implies that having a full and adventuresome life is incompatible with marriage. It says, hey have all your exciting bucket list done before you walk the aisle. But that’s crazy. I hope to be 90 and still working on my exciting bucket list. If you choose the right partner, they will help you be all you can be. To me, the only limitations come when children are added to the picture. At that time, you may have to defer or slow down certain goals to care for them. But don’t put off marriage if you’ve found the right person!

  • SayWhaat

    Congrats, Anacaona!!! :D

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Susan at 563,

    You may recall a time last summer when I had to ban talking about sluts.

    I’ve only been around since the middle of the fall. ;-)

    I understand your frustration. It’s true, we’re not going to improve the SMP just by shouting our stories online.

    For what it’s worth, I’ve learned a lot since coming here, and I have a more nuanced understanding of why I’ve never gotten along that well with other girls. One of the main reasons I hang out here is because I can’t find people in real life who are willing to have such frank, open, and intellectually stimulating discussions. I have a fairly strict policy about having friends of the opposite gender while in a relationship (I get that from my mom), so I mostly see the unwillingness to engage intellectually in the women around me. I’m sure that contributes to my bias. I’m also surrounded by women in graduate school, which probably adds to it.

    I’ve also made changes in my own behavior lately that have made my relationship run much more smoothly. I’ve said before that my participation in HUS has saved my relationship, and I still believe that, for a number of reasons. The most I can do in this SMP is watch my own behavior, foster a healthy relationship, and someday teach my values to my kids. Perhaps I’ll tell a few people what I’ve learned along the way. So know that you and your followers have at least inspired one person to make improvements. I have not changed who I am, but I have changed my behavior to fit my values.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      Thank you. I hope you know that I value your input and viewpoint, even if we do not always agree. And you’re clearly a fan favorite! I appreciate your contributions here very much.

  • Mike C

    Don’t hold back on my account. I imagine you must mean Anacaona’s original comment, as it’s the only one I deleted.

    Yes, that was the comment. Like I said, someone e-mailed me specifically to call this to my attention. Prior to that, I hadn’t read any of the comments for the past 2 days. In any case, I assumed you deleted it for a reason, and therefore it was inappropriate to directly quote it. My name was mentioned so I wanted to respond in some indirect way about my thoughts and motivations.

    With respect, I believe that you are one of the men here who tends to generalize a lot about the male experience.

    Right. But I see nothing wrong with generalizing. I generalize about what companies are likely to be good stocks. In most things in life, there are some general principles that hold true despite the existence of counterexamples. I think there is an overall general experience of the typical beta male over say the last 10-20 years. There are general principles about female attraction. And most importantly, there are some general truths about women are doing sexually and who they are responding to.

    At the end of the day, all I can go by is my personal experience. Over the last 16 years, I’ve talked to hundreds of girls. I’ve had numerous failures mixed with some success. I”ve probably pulled around 100-150 phone numbers, gotten to various stages of either making out or some messing around with 30-50, and fucked 7 of them. I’ve got enough of a body of experience to do some generalizing. I know what worked, what didn’t, and why certain things got the response they did. I know why girl X didn’t give me a second date and why I fucked girl Y on our second meeting.

    The truth is, on three of the most contentious threads here – Giving it up on the third date at the latest, the nature of male sexuality, and defining sexy, you had strong opinions that were shared by some, but by no means all, of the men.

    This is true, but on all of those threads you had a consensus male view that reflected the views of the majority of men. There are men commenting here who I can honestly say don’t reflect many guys I’ve ever associated with, but again that could be self-selection bias in terms of the guys I’ve associated with.

    Fugitive can only speak of fugitive’s experience, and you can speak of your own when you “give evidence.” It’s the hearsay and the extrapolation to “all women” that becomes problematic, and you can hardly be surprised that the women here do not welcome those pronouncements.

    But the flipside is to discount it as having little to no overall applicability, and that seems to be the direction you want to go. I”m too lazy to link to fugitives comment but go read it again. He’s 24, not 38 like me, and just out of school. Read what he says about the typical beta guy experience.

    HUS is not, and never was, the place where you digest the red pill. The women commenting here are in no way qualified to counsel any man through that process, nor should they have to.

    Absolutely agree. I think there are a few guys who comment here who are really struggling with what they want to become and/or how to deal with the red pill. MuffManMike and Ted D come to mind. This is the wrong venue for that self-discovery/working through those issues. Me, I’ve worked through 99% of this shit years ago, and now it is just interesting academic conversation. Other guys are still trying to transition to being successful with women either short-term sex or long-term relationships.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      There are general principles about female attraction. And most importantly, there are some general truths about women are doing sexually and who they are responding to.

      Agreed. But the truths that Mystery set down in writing have been far exceeded in the manosphere. “Game” has morphed considerably, as it has been adapted and reported on by hundreds of strangers on the internet.

      I’m on board with all the evo psych stuff, as my posts demonstrate: female hypergamy, the female preference for social dominance over good character, and the rewarding of arrogant behavior.

      Do I think that women who work as strippers or try to take bouncers home are the same as women who go to book readings? No.

      This is true, but on all of those threads you had a consensus male view that reflected the views of the majority of men.

      I don’t think that’s right. I haven’t counted, but on the Defining Sexy thread, I think there were as many men who stated that less is more and slutty = gross as there were who shared your view. The difference is, those men stated their opinion once and bowed out. The most vociferous men dominate the thread, but if every man gets one vote, the picture looks very different.

      But the flipside is to discount it as having little to no overall applicability, and that seems to be the direction you want to go.

      That’s not true at all. I seek balance, and I honestly feel that it’s been lacking. I believe that men have a variety of experiences and views, as do women. It’s really not a yes or no question. Again, my view of human experience is that is lies on a spectrum.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Thanks!
    Olive, Hope and SayWhaat. :). Susan and J already congratulated me so Thanks again.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I’m talking about a minority of young men, maybe five or ten percent, I don’t know, who have this addiction and it’s taking them out of the SMP. Actually, they never got in the SMP to begin with.

    My brother has never dated, he’s nearly 21.

    To be honest, it’s not the addiction that has taken him out of the SMP. It’s more that he has things he enjoys doing, and he has not found a woman for whom he is willing to give up those activities (one of which is computer games). Maybe he will, maybe he won’t. That’s his prerogative.

  • Mike C

    Congrats Anacaona! I hope she gets whatever gene it is that is responsible for your clear thinking :)

  • SayWhaat

    One commenter said that. In 2+ years.

    That was me. I just want to clarify that I do respect Mike C’s views enormously. But as Susan said, he does extrapolate his experiences and views to the wider male/female population, which is erroneous at best. That conversation was the snapping point for me, where he both invalidated my experiences (and indirectly implied that I was unattractive). I subsequently apologized for my outburst, and I’ll apologize here again, because it was inappropriate of me to react that way.

    But we would all be better off if we noted our personal experiences as OUR individual experiences, and didn’t characterize male/female behavior in certain ways. For instance, I wouldn’t ever say that all men are assholes, and then say that that generalization wasn’t intended to be applied to the male commenters here. It is still awful to have your sex insulted, even if you are not the particular target of that statement.

  • J

    Any time, Ana. You know where to find me if you need me.

  • Mike C

    My brother has never dated, he’s nearly 21.

    To be honest, it’s not the addiction that has taken him out of the SMP. It’s more that he has things he enjoys doing, and he has not found a woman for whom he is willing to give up those activities (one of which is computer games). Maybe he will, maybe he won’t. That’s his prerogative.

    Olive, you know your brother better than I do, but I am skeptical of this. My first guess is your brother has already given up when it comes to women, dating, sex. I don’t know his high school experience, what he looks like, anything. A normal 21-year old guy should have a drive to fuck that is off the charts. No interest in women isn’t normal. Either he is asexual, or in a state of depression or denial about this.

    I look back, and thank God I got rid of my V-card at 22 and had at least some success with woman in my early 20s after an abysmal time from my teens through 22. I can’t imagine the hell it would have been to try and dig out of that hole at 27,28,29.

    Its up to you, but you might consider pushing here to see what he really thinks. If he is putting up a facade, he can still turn it around. If he waits until his late 20s, it is going to be much more difficult

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Mike C,
    Actually I had an interesting conversation with him about his lack of experience quite recently. He’s had various girls throwing themselves at him in the last year or two. The most recent one had a partner count of 21 in one semester, and he said she “wasn’t his type.” When I suggested hooking up with her, he said “that’s mean.”

    Basically, he’s a relationship dude who doesn’t want to P&D and is also extremely picky. My guess? He’ll get to a point where he doesn’t give a fuck anymore, but as of now he’s not interested in casual sex.

    My BF actually told me he was reaching that point when we met. He also had hardly any experience at 21, which didn’t really matter to me, but I guess it matters to a lot of girls or else 21-year-old virgins would be no big deal.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The most recent one had a partner count of 21 in one semester,

      That breaks my heart. That’s four months, more than one guy a week. There is no way that girl is OK.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jackie,

    Olive and Jesus, would either of you liked to be judged at points earlier in your past? Even if you didn’t care if you were being deemed “relationship worthy”?

    Of course not. I wasn’t suggesting any such thing. I think people should be evaluated based on who they are now. NOT so that we can say this or that person is inherently good or bad, but so that we can say this or that person is a good or bad person to have a relationship with—at this point in time.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Congrats Anacaona! I hope she gets whatever gene it is that is responsible for your clear thinking

    Thanks. Well I’m handling pregnancy like my mom so so far the chances seem good. ;)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Thanks again J. :)

  • Mike C

    Mike C,
    Actually I had an interesting conversation with him about his lack of experience quite recently. He’s had various girls throwing themselves at him in the last year or two.

    I’m assuming he is at least a somewhat good-looking guy?

    The most recent one had a partner count of 21 in one semester, and he said she “wasn’t his type.” When I suggested hooking up with her, he said “that’s mean.”

    I’m not going to advocate that guy P&D just to do it, but his verbal response indicates to me he has some strong white-knighting/pedestalizing tendencies.

    My BF actually told me he was reaching that point when we met. He also had hardly any experience at 21, which didn’t really matter to me, but I guess it matters to a lot of girls or else 21-year-old virgins would be no big deal.

    It does to many because the subtext is “loser without options”. At 21, in many cases, it is actually a decent guy who may be OK or even good looking who simply never learned or had any practice approaching and talking to girls.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Maggie and Olive, my husband and I are the same way with respect to video games. We both played a ton of MMORPGs throughout college, graduated with A’s and B’s, and got decent jobs (in his case after graduate school). Like Olive, I don’t think it’s the video games that are the culprit.

    For him, video games were fun, entertaining, a social outlet and worth his free time when he didn’t have some other urgent pressing matter to attend to. He never expected to meet me playing a video game, but it was a bonus that he did. I think for a lot of highly intelligent men, the time/reward ratio is just not there for “traditional dating.” So they’d rather spend that time doing other things.

    Also, he doesn’t really want to give up video gaming (for a girl), and the number of women that play video games is low (comparatively speaking). At the same time, ironically, he’s met plenty of women playing video games, but they often had boyfriends or husbands, or were not compatible in some other way. He also did meet a girl from a video game and had a brief fling sort of thing with her, a few years before me.

    Anyway, I see video gaming as something like the the nerdy person’s social hobby. Unlike those who go skiing, or mountain biking, or other “cool” activities out in the real world, we do activities that we think are “cool” in the virtual world. Just because it is new and less understood by the mainstream does not make it automatically bad.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Just because it is new and less understood by the mainstream does not make it automatically bad.

    Is useless Hope. Video games, Romance novels, Porn… All those things are the cause of the downfall of human race if you are not a fan of it or worst if you were a fan and it actually affected your life and you had to quit. There is no bigger hater than a former fan gone wrong. That applies to religion, sports and politics BTW, IME, YMMV.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ana,

    Congrats!

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Thank you JM. :)

  • Maggie

    Please, let me be clear. I am not blaming video games for the downfall of the human race. For the VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE, video games are fun and harmless and maybe beneficial. If you get good grades, you do not have a problem. If you have good relationships with the opposite gender, you do not have a problem. If you do well at your job, you do not have a problem. Please enjoy your games.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Mike C,

    I’m assuming he is at least a somewhat good-looking guy?

    Objectively speaking, yes. He’s also been hitting the gym lately and lost about 30 lbs. in the last few years, which probably significantly increases his SMV. Dunno if he’s doing that to be more attractive, or just to be more healthy. He hasn’t said.

    but his verbal response indicates to me he has some strong white-knighting/pedestalizing tendencies.

    Agreed. But… it’s not for me to discuss pedestalizing with him. His friends are starting to bug him, as is my dad. I feel they’re more qualified to advise him. I’m just his bratty older sister. :-P

  • Mike C

    Objectively speaking, yes. He’s also been hitting the gym lately and lost about 30 lbs. in the last few years, which probably significantly increases his SMV. Dunno if he’s doing that to be more attractive, or just to be more healthy. He hasn’t said.

    My money would be on being more attractive/boosting his SMV. I graduated college at 6’3″ 265 around 30% bodyfat, and I was like “I am not going to die a virgin”. Knowing nothing about Game (the concept didn’t even exist in 1995) I focused on physical appearance because I knew that was what I was attracted to in women. Under a year I dropped down to 200 at around 10% bodyfat, was tanning regularly, etc. It was all with the objective of boosting my attractiveness. I could be wrong, but I’m guessing he is trying to increase the caliber of girls he thinks he can pull. One problem though, if the inner game/inner beliefs are all fucked up, the outward appearance won’t make up for it. Believe me, I know. I could be entirely off here, but I am just trying to connect the dots you’ve presented.

    Agreed. But… it’s not for me to discuss pedestalizing with him. His friends are starting to bug him, as is my dad. I feel they’re more qualified to advise him. I’m just his bratty older sister. :-P

    Maybe not. But you are smart, and you understand this shit and the various issues. You don’t want him to get chewed up and spit out out there.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Mike C
    Is very interesting in church when they try to teach guys to be abstinent till marriage they usually mention that as they get older it will be easier so they should hang in there. So there is truth on that of course in our church the male is still considered the leader of the relationship, and I know many virgin girls that wanted a virgin husband too, so is different.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Olive, my husband was being bugged by his dad when he was 24ish and living in his dad’s basement (playing WoW) that he should date, get a girl, all that stuff.

    It wasn’t that he didn’t want a girl, but more that he felt the girls he knew were too immature and not really “girlfriend material.” He had very high standards and didn’t want to have a string of casual hook-ups, so he just kept to himself and kept his eyes open in case a girl came along.

    So yeah, he looked rather “unsuccessful” and a “loser” with women until we met. Except he’s really a great catch.

    Anyway back to Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning. :P

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Oh before I forget… @Anacaona how far along? :D

  • anonymous

    @ Olive:
    “I guess it matters to a lot of girls or else 21-year-old virgins would be no big deal.”

    Probably because, as Mike C mentioned, 21 yr old males’ desire for sex is off the charts.

  • WarmWoman

    @Hope:

    What a lovely story! I think it’s smart of your husband to wait for the right person to come along than date someone that wouldn’t go anywhere.

    I’ve had periods in my life where I was single for a few years and was questioned on it(I had a date ask me if I was gay, lol!), so that makes me feel better that I’m not alone.

  • Mike C

    Mike C
    Is very interesting in church when they try to teach guys to be abstinent till marriage they usually mention that as they get older it will be easier so they should hang in there.

    No, it won’t. I remember how I was starting to feel in my junior and senior year of college at 20-21. I can’t even fathom what 28 would have been like. You show me a guy who is a virgin at 28, 30, 35, and I’ll show you a guy who is seriously mentally fucked up. The virgin until marriage thing only really works when you have a religious couple getting married at 19, 20, 21, 22.

    and I know many virgin girls that wanted a virgin husband too, so is different.

    Could be. I don’t know. Now I am going to GENERALIZE here (get your tomatos to throw at me) but my experience is most women want a guy with at least some implied sexual success. Now some cultures, religions, and upbringings might be able to teach a woman not to listen to this base drive.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Mike C,

    One problem though, if the inner game/inner beliefs are all fucked up, the outward appearance won’t make up for it. Believe me, I know. I could be entirely off here, but I am just trying to connect the dots you’ve presented.

    Yeah it’s a good point. Two things I’ve noticed: he doesn’t put up with shit from people, and the extroverted, loud ladies turn him off. In other words, he’s not going to take just anyone. I have no idea what he’d be like in a relationship though.

    My sense of the issue is basic approach anxiety, combined with a lack of experience interacting with girls. I’ve never known him to have female friends, and he seems to stay away from girls as a whole. It seems like a combination of shyness and disinterest in girls his own age. I have four female roommates his age and I can say without a doubt that he wouldn’t be interested in any of them.

  • Mike C

    It wasn’t that he didn’t want a girl, but more that he felt the girls he knew were too immature and not really “girlfriend material.” He had very high standards and didn’t want to have a string of casual hook-ups, so he just kept to himself and kept his eyes open in case a girl came along.

    So yeah, he looked rather “unsuccessful” and a “loser” with women until we met. Except he’s really a great catch.

    This is fascinating to me because it does show there are some guys that if they cannot get a Ladder 1 girl at that moment in time, then they don’t even want a Ladder 2 girl either. I’ll admit that I cannot relate to this in any way. Apparently, he found some way to totally ignore his drive for sex if it wasn’t with a girl who met relationship standards.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    It wasn’t that he didn’t want a girl, but more that he felt the girls he knew were too immature and not really “girlfriend material.” He had very high standards and didn’t want to have a string of casual hook-ups, so he just kept to himself and kept his eyes open in case a girl came along.

    Yeah this pretty much describes my brother exactly.

  • Mike C

    My sense of the issue is basic approach anxiety, combined with a lack of experience interacting with girls. I’ve never known him to have female friends, and he seems to stay away from girls as a whole. It seems like a combination of shyness and disinterest in girls his own age. I have four female roommates his age and I can say without a doubt that he wouldn’t be interested in any of them.

    Again, I’m totally speculating but it might be less disinterest and more the shyness and associated fear and anxiety. If someone were commenting on me in college, they’d probably say he just seems disinterested in girls when the reality was I was just to anxious to do anything. Any perceived reward was outweighed by the imagined risk.

    Its up to you really….I’m just suggesting you might want to probe further with a clear intent you are not looking to judge him, ridicule him, or embarass him, but that you know stuff that might help him to get where he wants to be if in fact he isn’t where he wants to be now. Its hard though, I”m in a similar position with my sister. She is a bit hard-headed though so she often wants to argue with me instead of listen. Not unlike some commenters. LOL

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Anacaona how far along?

    According to the net is five weeks. I don’t feel pregnant except for some morning sickness, that is not in the morning. I guess I need more time.

    No, it won’t. I remember how I was starting to feel in my junior and senior year of college at 20-21. I can’t even fathom what 28 would have been like. You show me a guy who is a virgin at 28, 30, 35, and I’ll show you a guy who is seriously mentally fucked up. The virgin until marriage thing only really works when you have a religious couple getting married at 19, 20, 21, 22.

    Actually I didn’t met many good guys but they all said that the sex drive does gets easier to handle with age, whatever that means.

    Now some cultures, religions, and upbringings might be able to teach a woman not to listen to this base drive.
    I actually think is the other way around and cultures can make women to demand more sexually experienced guy because they can’t relate to a man unless they get something out of him, either money, status or an orgasm. Hope for example had the experience of her husband not being the perfect lover the first time and she was okay with working around, my husband actually didn’t had full intercourse with me the first time and I was willing, because I wasn’t clearly ready, lets say that I was expecting the whole thing to be more painful than it actually was, again I like my husband the whole package of him and I wanted to have sex with HIM and I had to wait six more months for the next trip to be able to do the did and of course so did he. Now in any other environment the women would had not give this guys a second chance, well their loss. Still I don’t know any woman unless she is really experienced and only in it for the sex, that would had discarded a guy if he wasn’t good to go the first time, YMMV.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Apparently, he found some way to totally ignore his drive for sex if it wasn’t with a girl who met relationship standards.

    I will say that my little brother is really attractive (at 6’2” when the average Dominican man is 5’5″ add that some smartness and he was quite successful or so I heard I really don’t see it, I guess I’m not supposed to) and he had a natural dislike for sluts. He had plenty of those, throwing themselves at him and he wouldn’t touch them with a ten foot pole. In fact he actually was sick of one that had a boyfriend and when she pretty much told him straight to fuck her he set a place called her boyfriend and played like he was just playing cupid for her, of course the boyfriend though it was just a surprise and she managed to not show any signs of her waiting for another man. She got shit scared, got the message clear and left him alone for good I think she stopped talking to him altogether. I do think some men can’t stick their dicks in certain class of women no matter what.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Thanks, Mike C. I’ll definitely think about it.

    Interestingly, I made some comment today about girls who “fall for assholes,” and he said “it’s because they have confidence, ever think of that?” I think he’s starting to get it, just has to put it into practice.

  • Mike C

    Actually I didn’t met many good guys but they all said that the sex drive does gets easier to handle with age, whatever that means.

    Well….sex drive being easier to handle is a separate issue from being a virgin. What it means is simply on day to day basis less of your time, mental energy, focus, mental efforts are oriented around getting laid. At 38, I can notice a tremendous difference from say 25-26, but I also live chronically sleep deprived now so that could play a role in the decrease as well beyond just age. But that is different from being a virgin. I can’t even conceive being a virgin at 38. I’d bet most 30+ virgins have suicidal thoughts. I suspect this is another of those things women simply cannot grok.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Well….sex drive being easier to handle is a separate issue from being a virgin.

    At the risk of sound generalizing how many male virgins by choice do you know? There is plenty of men that renounce to this out of personal philosophy or religious. not all of them successful of course but many of them do exist. I knew a couple of theology class and not only catholic priests I had a few Buddhist and one that practiced some other asian philosophy.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    In fact, I am very concerned that Anacaona sees HUS as going down the tubes. The loss of her respect is a serious blow, and as it was public it now provides fodder for you and undoubtedly others. (I don’t know who the other female is.)

    Oh my. If I had a time machine I will stop myself from posting that. I just didn’t wanted to be in a secret. You haven’t lost my respect Susan I still respect you. My perception of the state of the blog now has nothing to do with you, but with the blog’s mission and the way it was when I first arrived around a year more or less and the way it had changed. Again maybe all this is good, like birthing pains for a new incarnation, but there is change there is not doubt about it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Again maybe all this is good, like birthing pains for a new incarnation, but there is change there is not doubt about it.

      Yes, there is. HUS got successful.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Anacaona,
    My ex BF from high school is actually a virgin by choice, very religious. Three years ago I had a short fling with him 2.5 years after we broke up (terrible idea at the time, I know :-P ), and I was surprised at how much more sexually forward he had become. He’d dated a few girls since we’d broken up, and I suspect they were much less physically conservative than I’d been. I think in spite of his beliefs, he was very motivated by sex, something I’ve come to believe is very normal.

    I’ve heard about all kinds of weird sexual behavior in the church setting, including in families I’ve personally known growing up. I suspect repressed sexuality, accompanied by a culture that shames people for their sexual desires, is not particularly healthy, at least for most people.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I’ve heard about all kinds of weird sexual behavior in the church setting, including in families I’ve personally known growing up. I suspect repressed sexuality, accompanied by a culture that shames people for their sexual desires, is not particularly healthy, at least for most people.

    I don’t considered it repressed sexuality more like rechannelized sexuality. Repressed sexuality will imply, IMO, denying the feelings or consider them dirty. I never got that, sexuality was consider a beautiful part of the human experience a gift from God. But a gift that was ideally enjoyed after interchanged the wedding vows with our eternal mate or if you wanted to be a nun or a priest offered to God the same way you give up money or certain foods out of faith. YMMV of course I agree that there are people that have sex for all the wrong reasons and there are people that don’t have sex for all the wrong reasons too.

  • deti

    Delurking to say hearty congratulations to Anacaona!

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Thanks Deti. :)

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    He said the record was 3 in a weekend. I couldn’t even believe it.

    Yeah I dunno Susan. It’s blatantly obvious to me these girls are looking for validation, and “finding” it in sex (remember my friend who slept with Tucker Max…). They are mixed up and confused, and they don’t know what makes them attractive.

    The Sexual Revolution made things worse for women, regardless of what feminists want us to think.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The Sexual Revolution made things worse for women, regardless of what feminists want us to think.

      I feel certain that many women will come to this realization in the next 20 years. Marriage is going to be like a game of Musical Chairs. The women left standing are going to be angry, and they’re going to look for someone to blame.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    P.S. I do want to echo Anacaona’s sentiments in 634. And of course I’m not going anywhere (lest you bring back Doug :-P )!

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Jackie
    PS: What are you giving up for Lent? I still haven’t decided!

    My WP blog. :P

    @Susan
    That means I’ll be away for forty days and forty nights (and maybe some of Easter Octave as well), but please don’t think I’ve abandoned you! I’ll be back. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bellita

      That means I’ll be away for forty days and forty nights (and maybe some of Easter Octave as well), but please don’t think I’ve abandoned you! I’ll be back.

      We will miss you very much! I wish you a rewarding spiritual journey.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Anacaona

    That’s wonderful news! Prayers for you and your growing family!

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Thanks Bellita. :)

  • Mike C

    Agreed. But the truths that Mystery set down in writing have been far exceeded in the manosphere. “Game” has morphed considerably, as it has been adapted and reported on by hundreds of strangers on the internet.

    I’m on board with all the evo psych stuff, as my posts demonstrate: female hypergamy, the female preference for social dominance over good character, and the rewarding of arrogant behavior.

    Do I think that women who work as strippers or try to take bouncers home are the same as women who go to book readings? No.

    Periodically, there will be a comment here that I think strikes new ground and/or expands a line of thought but garners little to no discussion. Very often, some of the best and most thought-provoking comments come from Wudang.

    Not too long ago, he had a comment with a link that explained the breakdown of women into high dominance, mid dominance, and low dominance in terms of what they respond to. If you did not read that link in that comment, I would encourage you to do so prior to reading the rest of my comment.

    I personally think this is the most accurate way of categorizing. Really, the point of contention is not that ALL women are like X, or that NAWALT, but what that mix really is today amongst say 20-35/40 year old women. What percentage of women require high dominance versus middle versus low. My sense is you think the high dominance category are the outliers with the bulk in the middle and low. My sense is most guys out there approaching, trying to set up dates/get togethers and progressions to either some type of physical involvement and/or relationship think the mix is quite different with many/most women only responding to high dominance. I would also add that although the high dominance women will ONLY respond to very dominant/alpha men, I believe many of the low dominance women will also respond to dominance. Those are the “mistakes” that “good girls” make with “assholes”. Many/most girls at a book reading are not going home with bouncers at bars, but neither is a mutually exclusive set.

    In any case, we’ve reached the point where it is pointless for either side to try and persuade the other side of their position. It is also pointless for guys to come to HUS and bitch about what women are doing out there. I agree wholeheartedly with that. This simply is not the place for that. This shouldn’t be a place for guys to complain about how “fucked up women are”. Do that somewhere else. That said, I think you should recuse yourself from any other posts offering advice to men. By doing that, you open up the can of worms where male commenters will respond because he doesn’t think the advice applies to the women he is encountering day to day in the real world.

    I don’t think that’s right. I haven’t counted, but on the Defining Sexy thread, I think there were as many men who stated that less is more and slutty = gross as there were who shared your view. The difference is, those men stated their opinion once and bowed out. The most vociferous men dominate the thread, but if every man gets one vote, the picture looks very different.

    I suppose we could go back and count, but my recollection is the slutty=gross men were a minority. Jesus Mahoney, Escoffier, maybe 1 or 2 more, I can’t quite remember exactly.

    In any case, the bottom line is it is increasingly clear that male commentary of a certain type (criticism) is getting more unwelcome in favor of a more “balanced” view. That’s OK. Nothing wrong with that. This is your online home. Everyone else is a guest. I wouldn’t go to a PETA meeting and expect a warm welcome for extolling the virtues of eating meat. To the extent you are advising women to make better decisions that is a noble endeavor. Just my opinion, but I’d stay away from posts/comments that pick fights with highly respected male bloggers advocating the male POV. That simply is asking for the type of comments you are explicitly saying you do NOT want here. But if you whip out your dick to joust with Rollo, you can’t be surprised when you get a ton of hardline pushback on that post such as in the Defining Sexy post.

    I’ll close this comment with once again stressing that overall I respect and admire what you are doing here. Reasonable people can disagree on certain points. I think it is critical for the male readers to understand you are not writing for men. You are writing for women to help them get boyfriends and/or marriages. Men who have issues to work through and or learn to be more successful either short-term or long-term need to accomplish that elsewhere.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      I wrote a long comment in reply to yours, but my laptop hiccuped and it’s gone. I’ll take that as a sign it’s best to keep this short. Thank you for your honest feedback and your support of my mission here. I believe the question of whether women want too much dominance or men offer too little is one of many that we will never answer here. Even if we could, it’s just looking in the rearview mirror. Ultimately, those wanting a life partner only need to find one person, and with luck and determination will conquer the SMP and stay out of their own way long enough to do so.

  • Desiderius

    “Your rage robs me of my sleep at night. That’s not a hyperbolic statement, it’s the truth. My inability to deal with male rage online destroyed my holidays with my family. Consider that my shortcoming if you like. I don’t want to write a blog that attracts enraged people, and I certainly don’t want to be the cause of making people feel enraged. It makes me very sad, and it also frightens me.”

    Well, if its any consolation, you’re not the only one losing sleep over the fate of this blog. Here I’d determined to enjoy the internet-free life I’ve built over these last few months, and, well, I’ve enjoyed that life, but thanks to you and your travails I haven’t been able to keep it internet-free.

    I’m sorry to hear of your ruined holiday.

    To fight aloud, is very brave—
    But gallanter, I know
    Who charge within the bosom
    The Cavalry of Woe—

    Who win, and nations do not see—
    Who fall—and none observe—
    Whose dying eyes, no Country
    Regards with patriot love—

    We trust, in plumed procession
    For such, the Angels go—
    Rank after Rank, with even feet—
    And Uniforms of Snow.

    I’m not much for imaginary angels – I can name mine. They’re always there to welcome me once that Cavalry has been defeated. Hope you know where to find yours – can’t imagine you do not.

  • Petruchio

    and…

    One for Kate, and her legions:

    A wounded deer leaps highest,
    I’ve heard the hunter tell;
    ‘T is but the ecstasy of death,
    And then the brake is still.

    The smitten rock that gushes,
    The trampled steel that springs;
    A cheek is always redder
    Just where the hectic stings!

    Mirth is the mail of anguish,
    In which it cautions arm,
    Lest anybody spy the blood
    And “You’re hurt” exclaim!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      Thank you, poetry is balm for the soul. I confess I am selfishly and not so secretly pleased that you have come back online.

  • christiankp

    I think that this blog is one of the most constructive sites when it comes to relations between men and women. The tone of the blog has changed after “Dalrockgate”. Something happened when two of the most constructive and moderate bloggers turned into fight. It is very unfortunate and sad, but maybe inevitable.

    I understand that Susan is reluctant to let her blog get drowned in male bitterness. And she shouldn´t because she has an important message to women, and it is important that this blog does not turn into another MRA-forum, because then the message from Susan to young women won’t get through.

    However, after 50 years of feminism, men are bitter and men distrust women. That is a reality you as women have to live with. Its your own feminist sisters who have made up that situation and many non-feminist women has contributed by going passively along with feminism.

    Therefore, although the bitterness is not allowed on this blog, you have to take it into account, and you have to find a way of neutralizing it.

    It is women and feminism that have instigated this bitterness in men, and therefore it is women who bear the responsibility to help men overcome their bitterness. Of course you can choose not to, thinking that bitter men have to take care of them-selves. That is their fate. But the bitterness that women has caused in men will backfire and is backfiring now and for your own sake you are obliged to help men overcome their bitterness and resentment.

    Women are the first sex. You are the sex that bears the children and thereby the backbone of society. In the feminist view this has given you certain rights. And maybe it does. However, I think that it also give women certain special obligations that men do not have, towards their children and toward society and towards men. Women have not succeeded to live up to these obligations for the last 50 years as your minds has been poisoned by feminist ideology.

    Do I think that men do not have obligations? No, of course we have. But men are disposable and men are redundant and we are becoming more and more redundant. And unfortunately many feminists and other women are celebrating men’s redundancy. But it is not easy for you to tell men one day that we are redundant (and evil) and then put obligations upon us the next day. If we you don’t need us we have no obligations and if you want us to take responsibility you have to make us believe that you need us.

    I fully understand that women are just as insecure as men in this whole new scenario that has evolved since the pill, and I understand that many men treat women badly. So I fully understand that women may feel bitter and resentful towards men.

    Therefore, I can also understand why many of you women have bolstered your own faltering self-confidence by convincing yourself that you can manage without a man in your life and that men are more evil than women. But this is just narcissistic and it damages your own interest in the long run.

    The relation between mother and child is the central relation in society. If it was not for this relation, we did not need a society at all. Society is build around women’s need for help in childrearing. Men’s role in society is marginal although it used to look very central. Men’s importance has traditionally been inflated by patriarchy, and the reason for this is that if you make a person believe he is central he will be more useful. By taking a step back and let men get the status, the medals and the honour, women were able to take advantage of men’s labour. Women always knew that no one could replace them as mothers and that they were central. Because of this knowledge of their own worth they could let men believe that men were central. Status, honour and medals are very cheap.

    Women’s situation became worse because of the extreme growth of the population in the world deflating the value of the traditional labour for woman: motherhood. Up until then there had always been to few women to satisfy society’s need for children, but now there are too many. Suddenly women got a glimpse of what it meant to be a man, to be unnecessary. And women were scared to death.

    In panic women tried to mimic men. I believe that many women thought that if man could get importance and status by working and getting career it should also be possible for women. Women began to imitate men. And women have succeeded, as you all know. Thereby women has diminished their feeling of redundancy although it’s still there causing dumbfounded women as Kate Bolick to brag about that she doesn’t really need a man (In fact I think she said the opposite, but she didn’t dare to say it straight out an she then let herself get abused by feminists who did not want men and other women to hear what she said).

    It is a very poor strategy for people to bolster their own feelings of inferiority and redundancy by devaluing the worth of other people. And when women are seeking self-comfort in making men look more redundant, more evil and less human than them-selves, it is outright dangerous. And it will backfire.

    Redundant men will become dangerous men. This is not because of any fault in men’s character as we se more and more redundant women becoming dangerous too. Redundancy is turning humans into dangerous creatures regardless of sex because you get pride and dignity by being needed by others. The only reason that we do not see as many women as men falling into this is that very few women experience the abyss of redundancy that men experience and that most men fear more than death. After all women are free to have children if they want – and when women got the feeling of redundancy you were allowed to take over the part of society formerly dominated by men.

    But your actions as women has put society into a situation where maybe most men are redundant or at least we feel redundant – and many women do their best to increase this feeling in men because it diminish women’s own anxiety and self-doubt.

    My wife has convinced me that I am important to her. I know that I helped many people in my work and that many are thankful. I personally do not feel redundant, but I sincerely believe that if half of all men should be killed, most women should not notice if they were not personally affected or if it were not for the odour. Some women should even be relieved.

    Of course I may be wrong in this, but feminists and the lack of women’s opposition against feminism has planted this belief in me an in many other males. And it is up to women to persuade men that this feeling is wrong.

    As mothers women has always been the backbone of society and they had a lot of power. In fact they had the real power. If we compare to modern corporations we could say that the woman were the chairman of the board, and the man was the executive director. The long-term goal of female sexuality was the guiding principle governing society and relationship between men and women.

    Now women are increasingly becoming the executive leaders of society but I think that women have not taken on the responsibilities and the obligations that followed by being both chairman of the boards and executive. In those positions you are not allowed to just think of yourself. You have the obligation to think of the whole of society and how you will get the whole society to thrive.

    I have not seen any sign anywhere that woman leaders or women in general have reached this point of recognition. Women still just talk of women’s rights and not on women’s obligations and woman still think that men leaders just serve men’s interest although in fact every legislation feminists have proposed have been made into law.

    But women, you need to see that the society you are creating need places for men to thrive, places for men to gain dignity and respect. You have to find roles for men in the life of women and children in which men can thrive. And it is your obligation to make men feel secure in this role.

    Unfortunately I believe that women will never come to recognize your special obligations and men will sink into more and more redundancy and behave more an more badly until the day when most women will decide not to give birth to male children and to conceive by insemination.

    This society may be the dream for many women, and as a man I will happily resign. If women can’t or won’t construct a society in which there is place for men, men ought not to exist. That is OK. But you yourselves are no longer human beings.

    The traditional answer from women is that men’s fate is our own responsibility. We just need to man up. But we can’t, as there are no places for us to fill. You may wish us to be responsible fathers, but then you should make it virtually impossible for women to get a divorce from a responsible father. And you have done quite the opposite and many of you celebrate it as your greatest victory as women.

    Please note that I am not talking about men’s right as fathers, because I don’t give a damned for rights. I talk about the responsibility of women to engage men as responsible fathers, to stay with the men that are responsible although they may have other faults. This is an obligation that a woman has not only to the man that father her child, but also to society as a whole and not the least to her daughters. Every woman taking out divorce from a responsible father is the future generations of women to single motherhood and poverty.

    I feel that Susan is one of the all to few females who is recognizing that something is very wrong and that she is trying to counteract this. Susan, I wish you good luck. You may be the one turning the tide. And as I am sure you know yourself: It is only women who can change the way things are going. Men are just too unimportant and too redundant.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @christiankp

      I think that this blog is one of the most constructive sites when it comes to relations between men and women. The tone of the blog has changed after “Dalrockgate”.

      Thank you. The shift was occurring before that, but Dalrockgate brought the “war on HUS” out into the open. In truth, several bloggers in the manosphere had been agitating for the destruction of this blog since the day the Atlantic article came out mid-October. (I advise anyone to think very carefully before creating a Google Alert for their own name.) The manosphere has been very good to me overall, and many of those bloggers still do appreciate my work here. While I am now persona non grata in some circles, it will not change my mission here, which is actually to make the SMP a better place for both men and women.

      However, after 50 years of feminism, men are bitter and men distrust women. That is a reality you as women have to live with. Its your own feminist sisters who have made up that situation and many non-feminist women has contributed by going passively along with feminism.

      Therefore, although the bitterness is not allowed on this blog, you have to take it into account, and you have to find a way of neutralizing it.

      I endorse this view. I have obviously failed to find that sweet spot at this point. Of course, I come with my own biases as a woman, a wife, and a mother. (Note to lurkers: This is not a claim that I play for Team Woman, it is a biological statement.) I will not stop trying. That is really all I can promise. Whether I can make a difference remains to be seen.

      It is a very poor strategy for people to bolster their own feelings of inferiority and redundancy by devaluing the worth of other people.

      Amen.

      And as I am sure you know yourself: It is only women who can change the way things are going.

      Yes, I do know that. Your entire comment on the impact of feminism on men is the best I’ve ever seen. Thank you so much for writing it.

  • OffTheCuff

    Olive – I think it is quite telling your brother said “that would be mean” because I can relate to thinking exactly that when I was his age. I had been trained that any sort of sex preceding a relationship was basically sexual assault. So, I wound up turning down women that really were throwing themselves at me. It took a few years of drinking to deactivate that false belief. That’s not the optimal way of doing so, but it does work. I think your brother will do just fine, so long as he mixes with women regularly. Some quality girl will pick him off for sure.

    As to the meta-topic. Yes, I see HUS as advice for women and am obviously on board with it’s mission. I view men like Mike and myself sort of as an male-POV advisory council to Sue and the other elder women, like Ana, J, Hope, Stingray, etc. We are here to give you that un-PC information that your husbands either won’t tell you, or only have sneaking supicious of. It’s up to you to distill that information and serve it up to the younger female generation. And it’s not a one-way thing, as I aim to understand the female perspective myself.

    It’s gratifying to have young unmarried women of Olive’s empathic caliber here, who are willing to listen men directly. It gives me hope for the future. Still, that’s just icing on the HUS cake.

    It’s interesting to see men like Ted come for help, but I would warn them that their interests are best served by immersing themselves in the company of men who ARE what they want to be.

    I think engaging in fights with the harsher voices of the manosphere itself is more or less pointless.

  • Fingenieur

    “Please, let me be clear. I am not blaming video games for the downfall of the human race. For the VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE, video games are fun and harmless and maybe beneficial. If you get good grades, you do not have a problem. If you have good relationships with the opposite gender, you do not have a problem. If you do well at your job, you do not have a problem. Please enjoy your games.”

    Ok. Thanks for the clarification. But I still doubt most non-gamers can see the big picture. That videogaming, smoking pot all day and not taking responsibility of anything is an awesome lifestyle and super-fun as is. Add sex in the equation, great! Even better.

    You can ruin your life with anything. Way, way, way more people have been destroyed in pursuit of good relationships and love than playing videogames. Even considering sexual interaction, the care-free lifestyle can be more fulfilling and entertaining than what we consider “those kids are supposed to do”.

    If we did not do such an awesome job with loser-shaming and constantly reminding everyone how pathetic those hikkys are, I doubt the real world would be able to compete with the virtual one. Just fun and good times everyday after you get over the fact that “normal” people think you are weird and expect shit from you. There have always been hermits. They are so because they find solitude less bad than the alternative.

  • Jackie

    @Anacaona C

    Congratulations on such happy news! :D So thrilled for you, Ana!

    PS: Renesmee? ;)

  • Jackie

    @Bellita

    I, too, am thinking of giving up internet (just email, etc, necessary for business) for Lent. This may not make sense, but part of me is trepidatious (no netflix? no HUS? :( ), but another part of me is almost looking forward to having the kind of quiet and stillness in my life, to see where I am led.

    (It’s really easy for me to have time taken up online– email, skype, IM, message boards, music, movies. Lotsa good things, but easy to get immersed , y’know?)

    Much peace to you, Bellita! :)

  • Maggie

    ” I talk about the responsibility of women to engage men as responsible fathers, to stay with the men that are responsible although they may have other faults. This is an obligation that a woman has not only to the man that father her child, but also to society as a whole and not the least to her daughters. ”

    Imagine how much better society would be if this were to happen.

  • Jackie

    @Jesus M (#606)

    Hi JM,
    I should have withdrawn that question, as it was pointed and, in putting another person “on the spot,” it was unnecessary. (And a charm school fail, too.)

    I am probably overly sensitive: Being judged as good/bad in the professional and personal is something I am working on at the moment. (Translation: Recovering perfectionist)

    Please accept my sincerest apologies and kindest regards–

  • WarmWoman

    Jackie-I’m exactly the same. It can be triggering for me when someone labels me bad or is critical in some way.

    Sensitivity can be a good thing though. :) Being able to feel other people’s pain, being nice to those that really need it, and being creative.

  • Rum

    Susan
    I have a great deal of respect for this blog because you are an incredibly generous host who allows the voicing of some pretty raw stuff while obviously trying to hear what is underneath the ranting. And your views have evolved thru time and you do not try to hide it. IMHO, this puts you in the extreme-elite level of blog excellence for the entire Universe.
    A very difficult thing for many women to grok about guys is that guys are often feeling things very intensely and struggle for ways to express it that are actually safe. Even, or especioally, when they seem shut-down. Because, trust me on this, if guys just gushed it all out like females do the result would NOT be safe for anybody.
    A great trick that Roissy used from the beginning was to drop huge hints everywhere that he was more a court jester than a Machivellian Dark Lord. Commenters generally got that they had permission to exaggerate every dimension of whatever topic. Believe it or not, in guyland this often expands everybodys comfort zone. The essential, painful truths often need a lot of dilution with obvious hyperbole to be safely dispensed.
    Imagine a Saloon in the Olde West where everybody is drunk and carrying loaded pistols. A perfectly reasonable way to communicate in that environment would be to tell a story that was 1. Funny, 2. Transparently exagerated, 3. Contained a truth that was not a direct threat to anyone present – or visibly present..

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      I appreciate your feedback so much! I wish I’d seen it 5 hours ago… :-/ Thank you.

      Your description of Roissy is so interesting, I’m going to think about that, and see if there’s some way to incorporate it here. What makes HUS unique, but also very challenging, is the very real presence of both sexes. While Roissy gets some women, it’s pretty clearly understood it’s a men’s club. If women don’t like it, they can take a hike, which is fair enough. I’m trying to walk a line here trying to keep both men and women entertained, informed, engaged, etc. I’m obviously prone to thinking and talking like a woman, and I can only be pushed so far before I find myself feeling defensive about my sex. There’s got to be a way of managing the dynamic better, even with my limitations.

      If you or anyone else has any concrete suggestions, including constructive criticism, I’m listening.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jackie,

    No apology necessary. I think my views have been mischaracterized. Or at least misunderstood by Olive. I don’t want to condemn anybody. But I do think it’s fair to say that as a general rule, promiscuous women and women who have a habit of being attracted to bad people are poor relationship prospects.

    Olive thinks this is unfair, which is her right. But I don’t see how it’s any different than you or Warm Women backing away from a guy who’s asking about your sexual history on a first date. Avoiding relationships with promiscuous women and women who attracted to men of poor character seems like sound strategy to me.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Rum,
    Thanks for your comment! It definitely helps shed light on some of the male perspectives, and it also helps clarify the difficulties men face when communicating about intensely emotional subjects.

    As women, I think our gut reaction is to take things personally. You could see it in the Defining Sexy thread, which almost immediately became about Emma Watson, the person. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, it’s just how we communicate, and it’s why we’re so indirect with each other. I think a lot of this breaks down to a gap in male-female communication, and you do a very good job of summarizing the male communication style to which the vast majority of women cannot relate.

  • WarmWoman

    Jesus Mahoney

    How would you define a man of poor character?

    For the female lurkers, I once found this link at the age of 25 when I just learning about healthy relationships and how good men behave(My house taught me the opposite, ha).

    The author is a bit of a religious extremist, but he makes good points overall. I remember deti seemed to agree with some stuff that struck out to me as important.

    http://www.gillistriplett.com/rel101/articles/40things.html

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,

    But I do think it’s fair to say that as a general rule, promiscuous women and women who have a habit of being attracted to bad people are poor relationship prospects.

    Olive thinks this is unfair, which is her right.

    It’s not that I think it’s unfair, it’s that I think it’s simplistic. I was thinking about this more yesterday, and I realized why it bugs me. The implication is that the women you’ve characterized as “decent” and “good” then get into a comfortable space in which they think they know exactly how to have a healthy relationship, and that’s a dangerous space to be in, because it leaves no room for improvement.

    Once again, I’ll use myself as an example. You’ll see various men in this thread praising me for understanding the male point of view, implying that I’m a “decent” woman. This is dangerous for me, from a personal standpoint, because it places me in a category in which I am “better” than other women. It sets me up for unhealthy competition (and back when I was 16 or 17, I was already writing about my tendency to compete in a way that drove others away, and that it wasn’t good for me).

    This is no one’s intent, of course. But women constantly want to know where they stand with men, and constant praise can sometimes reinforce bad behaviors (and all “decent” women have bad behaviors, as no one is perfect). It’s funny, a few months ago Malia came around getting on my case about this, and while I didn’t appreciate her tone, I do think she hit on something important: there’s a lot of “well I’m not like that” around here, which smacks of intrasexual competition. And as I despise intrasexual competition, I have to give her credit for pointing out something we don’t often recognize: a non-slut does not always make a good relationship prospect, and vice versa. Mike C said it best:

    Regarding quality versus non-quality and good versus bad women, some women just don’t get it and never will. It isn’t just about how many dicks you’ve sucked or taken in your vag. Its about how you view men and a man in your life.

    In other words, it’s about an attitude that I’m still learning to acquire.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Jackie
    I can’t cut Internet time completely because of my work, but I will be cutting down on how much time I spend online. I’m already looking forward to it . . . which seems wrong to say about something that’s supposed to be penitential. :P

    What I’m not looking forward to, however, is forty days of no chocolate. I hope the souls in purgatory appreciate this. ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What I’m not looking forward to, however, is forty days of no chocolate.

      A double Lenten sacrifice? I admire you! Question for Jackie and Bellita – soooo off topic. My husband is quite unhappy with the modifications to the language of the Mass. It affects the choir very dramatically, and he finds the language clunky. I agree with him. Not sure if you’ve seen this yet, Bellita, but I understand this will be worldwide. What is your opinion? (Note: I’m a C&E Catholic.)

  • J

    I don’t feel pregnant except for some morning sickness, that is not in the morning. I guess I need more time.

    Morning sickness doesn’t necessarily strike only in the morning, so that’s normal. People tend to equate having a lot of morning sickness with having a healthy pregnancy. It’s a half-truth. Yes, pregnancy hormones can cause morning sickness, but not everyone is sensitive to them.

  • christiankp

    Thank you Susan. Your last words just made me very proud.

    Many if the thoughts I wrote are taken from British sociologist Geoff Dench. I recommend that you read his book “Transforming men.”

    I shall briefly try to explain some of his ideas. It is vitally important for humans to be needed by others. If you are not needed you will vanish. That’s true for both men and women. However, a man’s position is much more fragile than a woman. Basically women can just f*ck around and get a child, and then they will have dependants. They will also be a part of a sisterhood helping each other.

    If women decides that they do not need men in the dependency chain because they can manage for themselves, they are in fact deeming the men to redundancy and to vanish slowly, because being outside the dependency chains will make you careless of yourself and others. And both men and women will experience this lack of care and responsibility when they are redundant (I guess that girls acting like sluts are doing it from the same feeling of redundancy as men acting like studs). It has nothing to do with an inborn male inferiority. It just that life is much harsher to men than to women.

    Men have no way of forcing themselves into the dependency chain going from child to mother to father, because the role of the mother in the dependency chain is biological, while the role of the father is social. A woman has the obligation to invite a man into this dependency chain. This is an obligation that she has, not primarily to the man that she invites, but to society because it is by letting men into the dependency chain that women turn med into productive and useful members in society. If women keep men out of the chain they will just be a burden to society.

    I know that this may be a hard burden for women to bear, that they should not be allowed to go for themselves, and that they are obliged to be dependent on a man so that he can get the chance of becoming useful. But that is a point modern women have misunderstood. Being central to society does not come with a lot of rights but a lot of obligations and responsibilities. Power is not compatible with personal freedom and hedonism. That is abuse of power. Power is self-sacrifice and taking responsibility for others.

    So all these women that are celebrating themselves as free and independent have missed to meet their obligation to society: inviting a man into the dependency chain and thereby making him useful to society. Although it may be a burden to women to do this, it has nothing to do with male oppression or subjugation of women. It’s just that a society with too many superfluous men will eventually implode, and that cannot be in the best interest of women.

    And I think that the refusal of women to invite men into the dependency chain is already backfiring as those very women who took the role of breadwinner away from men and who flooded the labour force thereby diminishing men’s salary are now seeing their own son’s t deteriorate and as a result of this they se the world of their daughters become harsher and harsher.

    Of course I hear the protest of women. Why should we let ourselves to be dependent of men that can’t be trusted? It is better for us to be dependent on welfare than on a male that may leave us and abuse us. I understand this, but the problem is that when enough men are left out of the dependency chains production will diminish and welfare will implode, because welfare basically rely on the surplus production of men caught up in dependency chains. I think that what we are seeing now is the implosion of welfare because of the diminished production of men and the burden of unproductive men on society.

    I also think that women should be aware that the marginal value to society of men’s work is greater than the marginal value of women’s. I know this is unfair but I will show you. A woman who is not working is a burden to society. Lets say that she costs society $15000. If she started to work the work she does will have a certain value to society (lets say $20000), and thereby she will increase wealth in society. She might also earn more money (lets say $2000) by working than being on welfare, so her wealth and the wealth of the collective of women are increased by $2000 plus some of the value of her production.

    But what would happen if she were a man. For the sake of simplicity, lets say that all values are the same. The cost of an unproductive man is $15000. These resources are taken from society’s general pool of welfare, so they are channelled away from women to men. By getting into work these money can be rechanneled back to women and children. Of course even a part of the value of his production will increase the wealth of women and children. And by paying taxes the man will also increase the resources in the welfare system primarily favouring women and children.

    The conclusion is that an unproductive woman going into work will increase the net wealth for women very marginally (in this example $2000 + some of the value of what she produced), but an unproductive man going into work will increase the wealth of women much more ($15000 + some of the value of what he produce + the value of the taxes + the value he hands over to his family as a breadwinner).

    I agree with feminists that men have always been privileged in the labour market, but I am firmly convinced that women have every reason to accept this. When women force men out of work by affirmative action they are betraying themselves, because women can never create so much wealth for themselves by working themselves as by letting men work.

    Every time a woman is taking a man’s place in the work force she is not only and ultimately defeating him. She is also contributing to making life worse for the woman who could have relied on his resources and work in raising her children. And eventually this could be herself. So ultimately it will be women who are defeating themselves

    So by not trusting men and not letting men into the dependency chains and taking men’s place in the work force women are making life worse for themselves, by increasing their own workload and by decreasing the wealth in society. Paradoxically men will not suffer very much economically, because not having any woman or children being dependent on us, we do not need very much money to live.

    How should men react to this? I think that MRA’s often are making a good analysis of what is wrong, but I think they are doing wrong by whining just as feminist has always done. (And by the way I think that you women should know that the MRA’s are the men to be trusted and the men you should love. A MRA man may say some harsh truths to you and in his anger and his grief you may find that he is unjust, BUT the MRA is not flattering you to get in your pants. That is what many feminist men are doing and succeeding with).

    As a man I am proud. I find that what men have done in the family, in the workforce and in society is done on a commission that we have gained from women. If we are not trusted to take on these responsibilities we should happily resign leaving these tasks to women to perform.

    And when we have done that we should humbly ask women: where is our place in your lives, in families and in society? Do you need us? Du you trust us? Without your trust we can do nothing.

    Some men may think that this is a mangina way of handling the problem, leaving over our roles to women. But I think it is not. I think it is putting women against the wall and making them responsible for the future of society.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @christiankp

      Your comment about the dependency chains sent a shiver up my spine – I have never heard these thoughts before. I have ordered Dench’s book, which here is called “The Frog, the Prince, and the Problem of Men.”

      At first blush, it strikes me that women have enormous power, in that they determine the role of men. On the other hand you are saying that women should refrain from displacing men in the workplace. I understand that women’s gains have been men’s losses, on a 1:1 basis. Yet I personally find it hard to imagine living in a world where women are not educated, and do not produce anything besides children. And regardless of what happens with feminism – I do believe it will fail – we cannot return to such a world. It is unfathomable. Is there any compromise to be found?

      Obviously, I am not familiar with Dench’s work, and I’m not sure I have understood correctly. I’ll comment more once I’ve read it.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Morning sickness doesn’t necessarily strike only in the morning, so that’s normal. People tend to equate having a lot of morning sickness with having a healthy pregnancy. It’s a half-truth. Yes, pregnancy hormones can cause morning sickness, but not everyone is sensitive to them.

    My mom told me that she never vomited and that she just had a little nausea after all that all she did was sleep a lot and eat so it might be one of those things. I know is crazy but I kind of want to feel worse and vomit. Is kind of like “were is my pregnancy experience go?” I want to the whole thing” Of course I also wanted acne in HS and PMS so is just my own “I want to be a normal woman” stupidity talking. I’m sure the moment I start to feel pregnant I will complain about it too. :D

  • ExNewYorker

    @Mike C.,

    “This is fascinating to me because it does show there are some guys that if they cannot get a Ladder 1 girl at that moment in time, then they don’t even want a Ladder 2 girl either. I’ll admit that I cannot relate to this in any way. Apparently, he found some way to totally ignore his drive for sex if it wasn’t with a girl who met relationship standards.”

    I’ll give it a try, since I’ve seen stuff like this, which seems to be more common in STEM guys (heck, I’ve lived it). Some STEM guys will have an idealized, in a way overly romantic, view of his “better half”. That being the case, he will only want a “Ladder 1 girl”, to be his one and only soulmate. The sex drive is still there, but sublimated for that one and only one person, with the belief that once she’s in his life, it’ll all be good. Going for a “ladder 2 girl” would be to break that idealization.

    Now that doesn’t mean that there’s only one person who could be “ladder 1 girl”. In my case, there we a few women I pedestalized in such a fashion, but the key feature is that desire for a “ladder 1 girl” now. This, as you can imagine, is a recipe for oneitis (and a pretty bad case of it, for that matter). The reality is that such a level of pedestalization ultimately backfires…no woman can live up to it. It also has the issue that the “ladder 1 girl” might not long term want you “your” ladder 1 girl.

    Olive, I’d recommend trying to puzzle out how idealistic your brother is. Having such an idealized view of women can be recipe for bitterness down the road.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Anacaona

    Congrats!

  • Sassy6519

    I’ll give it a try, since I’ve seen stuff like this, which seems to be more common in STEM guys (heck, I’ve lived it). Some STEM guys will have an idealized, in a way overly romantic, view of his “better half”. That being the case, he will only want a “Ladder 1 girl”, to be his one and only soulmate. The sex drive is still there, but sublimated for that one and only one person, with the belief that once she’s in his life, it’ll all be good. Going for a “ladder 2 girl” would be to break that idealization.

    Now that doesn’t mean that there’s only one person who could be “ladder 1 girl”. In my case, there we a few women I pedestalized in such a fashion, but the key feature is that desire for a “ladder 1 girl” now. This, as you can imagine, is a recipe for oneitis (and a pretty bad case of it, for that matter). The reality is that such a level of pedestalization ultimately backfires…no woman can live up to it. It also has the issue that the “ladder 1 girl” might not long term want you “your” ladder 1 girl.

    I know exactly what this looks like. My boyfriend (who was recently still my ex-boyfriend), was a 29 year old virgin by choice. When I discovered this about him, it blew my mind. I couldn’t understand how such an attractive man would willingly avoid women for so long. He told me that he had plenty of women throwing themselves at him, but that he never paid them any attention. I was the first woman he cared enough about to engage with.

    The problem with this was that his view of women was, and still is, extremely idealized. It’s a good and bad thing. I like the fact that he places me in an entirely different echelon than the rest of woman kind, but being idealized that way is also scary. I feel the pressure to never disappoint him and to live up to his idea of me.

    Relationships require work and no one is perfect. I think that’s why our relationship didn’t work out the first time around. We couldn’t easily navigate what we expected of each other and what each other really was. I’m hoping things will be different this time around.

    @ Anacaona

    Congratulations on the big news!!! I’m really happy for you.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Anacanoa, I never get morning sickness vomiting either. I am pretty sure it’s a lucky thing. :P I have friends who vomited throughout the entire pregnancy, not just first trimester.

    First time pregnancy is exciting… I really can’t wait until the 2nd trimester. That’s when the real fun begins, and you can feel the baby moving and kicking around.

    Sending you good thoughts! <3

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I love it that Hope and Anacaona are pregnant together. They were sharing TTC worries recently, now they are joyous. We must find a way to have an HUS baby shower :)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Thanks ExNewYorker and Sassy :)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    First time pregnancy is exciting… I really can’t wait until the 2nd trimester. That’s when the real fun begins, and you can feel the baby moving and kicking around.

    Me neither I’m totally like “GROW!!!” I want to feel it and have my husband feel it too and I want to know how she/he looks like. I’m not patient person. Pregnancy should last a month or so…stupid evolution too slow :p

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    Wait a sec, are you back with him?

    Olive,

    Just because a woman avoids promiscuity and falling for assholes, it doesn’t mean she’s a good bet for a relationship. They’re just two criteria for selection. And they work because the actions of women like that reflect an unhealthy view of men and relationships. In other words, a bad attitude.

    Warm Woman,

    I like the following “things” from the link you gave above:

    Honorable men are protectors. They will guard your heart, protect your emotions, defend your honor and stand as champions for your spiritual, mental and physical well-being…

    I think he’s a bit too strict. Most men are going to try for sex as soon as they can, unless they’re afraid. I don’t think fear is necessarily a good trait in a man. I’m not saying that you should drop a man who doesn’t try for sex early, but I don’t think you should disqualify those that do, either… as long as they’re respectful when you say “no.”

    Ultimately, a man of good character is subjective. But in my mind, he does what he believes is right, even–especially–when it’s hard, and even–espeically–when it’s easy not to. Also, he’s giving and empathetic.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    Yes, I am back with him. I’m hoping that it was the right decision. We’ll see how things go.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    You obviously still love him. I hope things work out for the best.

    Also, I know we’ve debated pretty hard around here the past month or so. Just wanted you to know that despite our very different views, I think you’re “good people.”

    Good luck with the new/old relationship.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Warm Woman,

    It occurs to me that I gave you a rather lame definition of good character in a man. I started thinking of how I would want my son to be if I had one (or when I have one). At the risk of incurring the wrath of other men here, I’m going to write up a post on Jesus Mahoney’s views on character when I get a chance.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      , I’m going to write up a post on Jesus Mahoney’s views on character when I get a chance.

      I’d love to run that as a guest post, if you’re willing.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “I believe that men have a variety of experiences and views, as do women. It’s really not a yes or no question. Again, my view of human experience is that is lies on a spectrum.”

    Bravo for making this point. I’ve read many, many discussions @HUS where this observation isn’t made or just dismissed as bunk. It’s true that we all generalize from personal experience to some degree. But… I’ve never understood projecting one’s preferences onto the rest of one’s gender. Bias and self-selection seem to distort what’s “true” or at least what’s really going on IRL. And I’ll admit I’m in a 20% (or smaller) niche of young guys, born at the tail end of Gen X, with similar life experience.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    Also, I know we’ve debated pretty hard around here the past month or so. Just wanted you to know that despite our very different views, I think you’re “good people.”

    No worries man. I appreciate the fact that you and I are honest with each other. I’d rather people tell me what I need to hear instead of what they think I may want to hear. I’ve always respected the fact that you are frank with me.

    One thing I did learn from one of our discussions was that men really don’t appreciate the idea of their women having other men occupy their mental space. I spoke often of the fact that he was jealous of other men and possessive of me. I attributed all the fault to him, but now I know that it was every bit as much my fault. It’s not fair to him if I exacerbate those behaviors by talking about our bringing up other men.

    There were two very telling things he said to me once, while we were dating once before.

    1. He said that I ruined his fairy tale idea of me when I mentioned my interest in other men to him.

    2. He said that he trusted me with his life and finances, but not with men, a few months after the example stated above.

    I know I need to foster dedication to him and let him know that I only see him. I know I can’t help the fact that other men approach me or flirt with me in front of him, but I can very much control how I respond to it by letting him know that he is all I care about. “Feeding the bear” wasn’t wise of me to do, in the past, and I have every intention of changing that about myself. I’m woman enough to admit that I was wrong to do so.

  • WarmWoman

    Sassy-Good luck with your boyfriend and you.

    Jesus Mahoney

    That link I gave does have some strict views, and I don’t agree with EVERYTHING….but it still serves as a grain of truth to other women.

    “men are going to try for sex as soon as they can, unless they’re afraid. I don’t think fear is necessarily a good trait in a man. I’m not saying that you should drop a man who doesn’t try for sex early, but I don’t think you should disqualify those that do, either… as long as they’re respectful when you say “no.””

    Are you saying that it’s still possible for a man to push for sex early and want an LTR with you? In the past, I’ve dropped dates that were talking about sex too much (Example: That actress has nice boobs!) or have tried to act gropey (grabbing breast while giving a good-night kiss). I perceived those behaviors as signs that the men weren’t serious. Perhaps I’m wrong, but it definitely made me feel uncomfortable at the time.

    The way how I see it is how a quality man will perceive me if I start talking about my favorite sexual positions or throw myself at him on the first few dates. There’s a chance that he won’t take me seriously. Likewise, I would expect the same demeanor from my dates.

    I would imagine if a man is pushing for sex or brings it up, he would have to do it in a way that’s not a turn-off.

  • christiankp

    I am sorry but now I can´t keep quiet.
    Before going to bed I like everyone to consider the centrality of women to society and the unimportance of men are reflected by the fact that men have fought two wars causing millions of men to die without any direct long term effects on society as a whole.
    One little book by a woman named Betty Friedan was sufficient to change the life prospects for all human beings to come.
    Therefore, women, I tell you: You have very much power and you need to be careful and use this power with responsibility and dignity.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Christiankp

      You are a great addition here, I hope you will stick around and continue to share your knowledge. And your English is excellent by the way. You write like a native speaker.

  • Desiderius

    Maggie,

    I join Susan in thanking you for your willingness to join the conversation, and especially for braving the fire that your input drew and sticking to at least some of your guns. Often for me disagreement is the sound my mind makes when its changing, and I suspect that I’m not alone, especially among men, so I hope that other commenters will follow your (and Susan’s) example of how to respond constructively to critical feedback.

    As for your point, I do see it too, and it may be above 10%. At various times in my life I’ve been playing computer games from 10pm-2am after full days of work and activities, when I probably should have been sleeping/finding my wife, and I now question the wisdom of doing so. While recovering from my transplant, I spent long stretches on games and blogs and it has been a challenge to leave that behind and reestablish a normal life to go with my returned to normal health.

    Among younger people (especially men), the problem may well be more acute. I tutored the star basketball player of our high school last year, and his primary means of coping with the EPL his mother was pulling on his family was to retreat into World of Warcraft, to the detriment of his grades, athletic career, and romantic life that should have been extraordinarily fulfilling to him in ordinary circumstances.

    I do believe that once the female behavior is fixed, that much of the male will follow, but certainly males are not innocent bystanders in all of this.

  • Desiderius

    Sassy,

    “I’m hoping things will be different this time around.”

    Hope is not a plan, but I like the things I’m hearing, and the decision.

    We’ll handle the hope while you get to work. You sound ready.

  • Mike C

    I do believe that once the female behavior is fixed, that much of the male will follow, but certainly males are not innocent bystanders in all of this.

    In athletic competition, there is a very real effect of “playing down to your competition”. In other words, a really good team will often just barely beat a really bad team because they don’t bring their A game when playing the really bad team. They bring just the barely necessary level of game to still win.

    I think some guys who otherwise might be somewhat upstanding guys bring the game/tactics/ethics, etc. to play to the lowest common denominator amongst female behavior. On some level male behavior will follow female behavior.

  • http://jabootu.net/?p=4714 Pip

    Badger said: “You can identify me by name, everybody knows who you are talking about.”

    Wow! Someone is feeling self-important today.

    SW rightly responds: “They didn’t, it was just one comment in a long thread.”

    How could you let this internetty “male rage” ruin your Christmas holiday? Maybe he’s trying to be socially dominant? Or ‘owning the situation’? Or is that ”peacocking”? Or some other term? It’s all so confusing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Pip

      How could you let this internetty “male rage” ruin your Christmas holiday? Maybe he’s trying to be socially dominant? Or ‘owning the situation’? Or is that ”peacocking”? Or some other term? It’s all so confusing.

      You’re a late arrival to the strife of the past two months or so, be glad! I wasn’t referring to Badger’s rage there – I had some interactions on another blog that I have likened to being waterboarded. All hell broke loose on Dec. 22nd, and while I wanted to spend time with family and needed to prepare for Christmas, I was extraordinarily preoccupied by the mess I found myself in online. In truth, I was not blameless in the situation, and of course got emotional and defensive, which just led to being submerged for longer periods of time. I think I came up for air around New Year’s. It’s an episode I’m trying to forget, and never want to repeat.

  • Mike C

    Are you saying that it’s still possible for a man to push for sex early and want an LTR with you?

    Yes, because the pushing is the male version of a shit test, and your response is how he gauges.

  • Mike C

    christiankp,

    Profound comments there. Top-quality big picture thinking. One problem with us humans is there are very few who do big picture thinking well. Very difficult to look at something X today and see the full ramifications looking out decades.

  • WarmWoman

    Mike C

    That’s funny, because my own mom reiterated your words when I told her about Indian men in the past doing this. She said “They’re just trying to see if you are a bad girl or a good girl.”

    If a man respects the word no (just as he’s trying to test your response), then I would see him as someone I would like to get to know further for an LTR.

  • Mike C

    Sassy,

    Good luck, hope things work out.

  • Mike C

    That’s funny, because my own mom reiterated your words when I told her about Indian men in the past doing this. She said “They’re just trying to see if you are a bad girl or a good girl.”

    What’s funny is it seems to me there is a lot of wisdom and accurate knowledge that used to get passed along from generation to generation to generation of women maybe going back hundreds of years, and somehow it seems to have gotten lost in the last 1-2 generations. Grandma and Great-Grandma probably knew and understood men 100x better than today’s woman.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Grandma and Great-Grandma probably knew and understood men 100x better than today’s woman.

      I think this is undoubtedly true, and the irony is, odds are they were only with one man during their lives. The sexes have drifted very far from one another, and our guard is up most of the time. Real “knowing” is rare.

  • Desiderius

    “I confess I am selfishly and not so secretly pleased that you have come back online.

    Ultimately, those wanting a life partner only need to find one person, and with luck and determination will conquer the SMP and stay out of their own way long enough to do so.”

    So, butter a guy up, then hit him right where it hurts.

    Just what I needed.

    I suffer from the curse of the precocious child, and so am inordinately concerned with the many I can no longer charm as I once did, rather then the few I need to to find a happier state. As you note, our education system makes precocious children of us all, so it should come as no surprise that so many of us feel that curse as adults.

    Thankfully my commenting here is not entirely motivated by a desire for company in that particular misery, and being now better aware of it should help to check it more fully.

    As for the buttering up for the punch that works so well on me, and no doubt many of your peers, I get the sense that this is also the strategy you’re attempting to employ to appeal to your target audience (which accounts for some of the views you’ve expressed that have so riled your male commenters).

    The problem is that it doesn’t work so well on that generation. They’ve been so relentlessly buttered-up their whole lives, that any sucking-up to them will cause them to tune you out before the punch is ever delivered. Just ask the legions of beta males how well it works for them. I was frankly a horrible teacher when I started out for this very reason.

    I was in fact sitting with our (very good) band on Friday as we listened to our (world-class, for high schoolers) orchestra go through their final rehearsal for the big concert yesterday, and the conductor stopped the piece to very frankly let his violin section know how poorly they were playing and what exactly they needed to do to meet his exacting standards. Not in a mean way, not inordinately upset, just no pussy-footing around.

    One of the (rowdiest) members of the band turned to me and said how much he wished the band director would do that, but that he was too nice and beat around the bush too much. They want it straight, no chaser. The good news is that if you give it too them, you would be amazed at the quality of the response.

    This generation (both teens and twenties) will shit test a week-old puppy. Better be ready to pass.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      They want it straight, no chaser. The good news is that if you give it too them, you would be amazed at the quality of the response.

      I was being sincere, I have no real motive to butter you up. I am especially fond of the literary bent you bring to these discussions.

      As for shooting straight, I have found that usually leads to accusations that I’m trying to swing my big dick around. Come to think of it, that’s from the Gen X’ers. Do you really think Gen Y is so different? I’m curious because we don’t know yet how, whether or when Millennials will marry.

  • WarmWoman

    Mike C

    Completely agree.

    “Grandma and Great-Grandma probably knew and understood men 100x better than today’s woman.”

  • http://jabootu.net/?p=4714 Pip

    “I can’t even fathom what 28 would have been like. You show me a guy who is a virgin at 28, 30, 35, and I’ll show you a guy who is seriously mentally fucked up.” – Mike C

    Well, maybe. My sister’s supervisor is in his lower 40s and a straight virgin. He was the only guy in a roomful of women during a party my sister and her housemate were having at their place with a bunch of other hospital workers last time I was visiting. It was pretty late and the drinks had flowed. Being the only guy, and being a supervisor, he was the object of attention. He made a comment about some celebrity’s looks which apparently surprised a few present who thought he was gay. (I didn’t see any gay in him.) A frank discussion followed.

    He just laughed about the gay stuff and said that wasn’t it but that he’d rather just “take care of himself” then bother with any woman “in his league.” It got pretty clinical, which was good because it got pretty personal – like “what do you think about when you ‘take care of yourself’?” personal. He said women that looked way better than us. This guy’s looks and height are…unfortunate, so I suspect the women he could realistically attract may not suit him. Maybe he idolizes porn star types.

    In any event, he seemed happy enough even under the Merlot truth serum and our questioning. He’s apparently got a nice place and a steady job. Maybe his sex drive has just gone down since middle-age dawned on him.

  • Desiderius

    “Maybe he idolizes porn star types.”

    There are now porn-star types who more resemble Gisele Bundchen than Jenna Jameson. More importantly, there are easily over 100 of them (remember how important variety is in satisfying base male instincts), they crank out new content like crazy, and through the wonder of law enforcement reluctant to be seen too enthusiastically looking out for the interests of pornographers, its all free.

    For many men today, sex (absent love) absolutely does not sell. They can get that, and better, for less.

  • Mike C

    As women, I think our gut reaction is to take things personally. You could see it in the Defining Sexy thread, which almost immediately became about Emma Watson, the person. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, it’s just how we communicate, and it’s why we’re so indirect with each other. I think a lot of this breaks down to a gap in male-female communication, and you do a very good job of summarizing the male communication style to which the vast majority of women cannot relate.

    Ha, tell me about it. I just got in a fairly intense argument with my GF this afternoon where she ended up personalizing the discussion which is actually why I often avoid any sort of abstract male-female dynamic discussions with here.

    She and I are huge Criminal Minds fans and we were watching this past week’s episode we DVR’ed. Long story short, turns out the killer in the episode started his killing rampage after he discovered he had been cuckolded by his wife with his best friend. Anyways, I used this as a launching point for some discussion and quickly any points I made about women generally speaking she somehow took personally.

    Makes it difficult to have any constructive, abstract discussions when they immediately become about THAT woman you are having a conversation with or her friends. Everything becomes about personal stories.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Wow, thanks for sharing that link to the Yale Daily News. I cannot believe those young Amanda Marcottes were so abusive to the poor guy.”

    This is the sort of wishful thinking that is getting you into trouble. Those aren’t young Amanda Marcottes, that’s the conventional wisdom among your target audience, backed now by the full power and authority of the Federal Government who has taken a very keen and direct interest in Yale’s SMP.

    Deal.

    “The simple algorithm is this: we hook up with the guys we are attracted to but who are not nice/good guys, and we are friends with the guys who are nice/good guys whom we are not attracted to. When there is a man who is a nice/good guy AND we are attracted to him, then we want a boyfriend.

    Which is why there are no boyfriends.”

    And you were saying how complex attraction was? Not really. You’ve identified ground-zero.

    There are two current reasons they are not attracted to the good guys:

    (1) Lack of promiscuity cues.

    (2) Selecting for fatherhood cues seems like it conflicts with political commitments many have made at that age and in that milieu, so they screen out men who present them.

    (3) The general risk-aversion bred into them from birth leads them to take various “safe” options. Going for it with a prospective Mr. Right of course being fraught with all sorts of danger. Better to put that off – he’s got all kinds of other good prospects anyway. Right? Right? No. Within the 80% of celibate men resides a very healthy chunk of the top 20% of the male MMP, many utterly flabbergasted at what they are doing wrong. The 463-bullet-point list has 463 points because 462 wasn’t enough to screen out every last good man.

    As for the risk-aversion, see:

    http://volokh.com/2012/02/17/glenn-reynolds-on-what-a-course-on-the-occupy-movement-might-teach/

    “555 Susan Walsh February 18, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    Unless you are a bisexual or a lesbian, women simply can’t afford to perform even slight hypergamous preference in 21st century. A boatload of women can’t afford to couple even from their “own level”. That’s the ugly math. It’s the men who will marry “up” if there will be marrying at all. The realities are now that the women should stay at work and let the men take the children and the house. Or more likely, do both-in-work approach. But just cut the crap that a man should be something in ones imagination. If you catch a good mate, great, you are lucky. You won in the game where odds are stacked against you.

    True story.”

    Not really. Thanks to the poor decisions of their peers, there are in fact plenty of good men available for these young women, once they’re made aware of their attractors and the dynamics driving them, and empowered to make decisions that are better for, yes, men, society, but ultimately, for themselves.

    All it takes is the guts to being them up to speed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      This is the sort of wishful thinking that is getting you into trouble. Those aren’t young Amanda Marcottes, that’s the conventional wisdom among your target audience,

      No, those are literally Yale Women’s Center types who are indeed young Amanda Marcottes. The feminist speak is all over those comments. They’re completely prepped and rehearsed. I know a couple of women into that scene at Yale – it’s probably the most robust feminist college scene in the Ivies.

  • Mike C

    Desiderius,

    Earnest question for you. Aren’t you a college professor or high school teacher of juniors/seniors? What are you seeing?

    Do you see some level of assortive getting together in terms of boyfriend/girlfriends and who is dating who, or do you see a ruthless competition amongst women for the very top/most dominant guys coupled with a ruthless filtering out/screening out any lesser guys who show even an inkling of lesser dominance/some misstep/too much emotion? Are the “good, decent” maybe not so smooth or super confident boys getting any sort of female interest at all?

  • Desiderius

    Put another way, women are in fact free to pursue actual, traditional social status hypergamy* because so many are instead pursuing sexual status hypergamy and/or slumming it with safe herbs, or now pursuing even more exotic alternatives.

    They have nothing to lose but promiscuity cues and vapid dorm-room political shibboleths.

    * – the old-fashioned way (social circle/talent scout detective work. Ask elders you respect, they are dying to help you. But you knew that.)

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Congratulations Ana.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Olive,

    “The women have to change. ”

    Has anyone else here considered what a shockingly new & revolutionary statement this is?

  • Desiderius

    Mike C,

    I’m a high school teacher with a 24-year-old sister very active in her local SMP. I’ve become as active in it myself as I am capable of doing over the last six months.

    “Do you see some level of assortive getting together in terms of boyfriend/girlfriends and who is dating who, or do you see a ruthless competition amongst women for the very top/most dominant guys coupled with a ruthless filtering out/screening out any lesser guys who show even an inkling of lesser dominance/some misstep/too much emotion?”

    Among high-schoolers? Really neither one. Probably less bf/gf than in my day, which is kind of a neutral thing. Not a big fan of serial monogamy among adults, but for teenagers, obviously marriage is not an option and they need the practice, but making serial monogamy too much of a norm at any age is problematic.

    One thing I’ve noticed is that boys in general are far less beta in every way, good and bad, and the girls are becoming much more feminine. There are a lot more “tops” these days (sources of status – drama productions are well attended, respected, and supported, for instance) so its not at all clear who the most desirable boys are. PC is pretty much widely recognized as bullshit, especially among students, but it still dominates the curriculum, so a lot of informal learning goes on. As a Math teacher, this thankfully effects me less than others, but they’re adapting.

    A lot of good role models for the kids, and these kids like that. They’re pretty authoritarian, for better or for worse. I’m not.

    I think I’ve linked to Strauss and Howe before, but these things go in cycles and are ultimately self-correcting, or maybe they are corrected by the hard work of people like Susan, but our society at least seems to be able to stop itself somehow from going off the rails.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      One thing I’ve noticed is that boys in general are far less beta in every way, good and bad, and the girls are becoming much more feminine. There are a lot more “tops” these days (sources of status – drama productions are well attended, respected, and supported, for instance) so its not at all clear who the most desirable boys are.

      This aligns with what I am hearing from college students as well, at least about the guys. The frat guys and athletes are all alpha asshats, but the rest of the men are not necessarily getting zero female attention. Certainly the boyfriends (real, not fake cheating types) are all from the 80%. And Mike C. will recall that a while back we got some reports of guys in that 80% wanting to “explore their options” rather than lock down a girl after one hookup.

      I haven’t heard about an increase in femininity – do you have a sense of what’s driving that among high school students?

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Jackie,

    “Judge not, lest ye be judged” means we not only have to stop judging others to be bad. But that we also must stop seeing other people as “good.” In order to truly possess the enlightened mind (of Jesus in this case), we must rise above the duality and see through a monistic (monism? oneness? sorry, can’t find right word) prism.

    Very true. I like that.
    +11

  • Mike C

    I’m a high school teacher with a 24-year-old sister very active in her local SMP. I’ve become as active in it myself as I am capable of doing over the last six months.

    If it is something you care to report back on, I’ll be interested to hear what you see out there on a personal level. I think you and I are around the same age (I’ll be 38 in a few weeks). I’m starting to wonder if there is a generational gap, and if today’s 16-20 year old is starting to have very different views/behaviors/etc then the 30-35 year old woman of today.

    Among high-schoolers? Really neither one. Probably less bf/gf than in my day, which is kind of a neutral thing. Not a big fan of serial monogamy among adults, but for teenagers, obviously marriage is not an option and they need the practice, but making serial monogamy too much of a norm at any age is problematic.

    I was really talking more about just similar SMV levels at least getting together for just an ice cream date or whatever, or if there is rampant hypergamy where the 5 girl is like “Eewwww, I would never date or go out with Bill” where Bill is her natural 5 counterpart.

    One thing I’ve noticed is that boys in general are far less beta in every way, good and bad, and the girls are becoming much more feminine.

    Good. Perhaps the pendulum is already starting to correct.

  • Desiderius

    anon,

    “Desiderius : “(1) Men are pigs (my Womyn’s Studies prof had the stats to back it up! I have stories!)”

    I want to make sure that I’m not misunderstanding.
    Is the meaning you’re using here of “men are pigs” = men are highly motivated by sex, are looking to attain it at the least cost possible and willing to take it if/whenever given the opportunity?”

    That’s usually a piece of it. I’m thinking more along the lines of “a man acting like a decent human being requires some explanation.”

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Sassy, good luck with your second try. Knowing your bf was a virgin does explain some things you’ve mentioned. And love can overcome a lot of hurdles.

    Also, as Olive said, sometimes the woman changing her behavior can bring about dramatic changes in the man’s behavior.

  • Sassy6519

    Thanks everyone for the good wishes. I’m optimistic about this. I think by putting the knowledge I’ve learned here to good use, he and I have a great shot at happiness.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Sassy,

    I know I need to foster dedication to him and let him know that I only see him. I know I can’t help the fact that other men approach me or flirt with me in front of him, but I can very much control how I respond to it by letting him know that he is all I care about. “Feeding the bear” wasn’t wise of me to do, in the past, and I have every intention of changing that about myself. I’m woman enough to admit that I was wrong to do so.

    This is an amazing change in perspective! I’ll be really interested to see how your new way of thinking influences your relationship.

    My own BF used to have moments of insecurity that would drive me insane (much like the moments you’ve described in the past with your BF). I’ve been experimenting a lot with my own behavior, and being extra loving and supportive seems to prevent the vast majority of those moments these days. Just throwing it out there in case you’re interested. Other than that, best of luck!

  • WarmWoman

    Susan Walsh,

    It would be nice if some grandmothers posted here then to sort out the confusion in SMP. !Mine is dead and wouldn’t know anything about Western dating anyhow. ;)

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,

    Also, I know we’ve debated pretty hard around here the past month or so. Just wanted you to know that despite our very different views, I think you’re “good people.”

    No such thing as “good people.” :-P Okay now I’m just giving you a hard time…

    In any case, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. IMO the female tendency to fall for assholes cannot just be chalked up to a character flaw, but that’s just my opinion.

  • Rum

    Susan
    No one here doubts that if you had an actual dick that it not be up to the job of defending truth, justice, and the American Way. It would have the heft and size to do a John Wayne on all the bad guys.
    It is the fact of your well brought-up children who have apparently thrived from the nipple on — that most strengthens the narrative that however much you deserve a dick to use as you see fit – heaven is still locked in discussion regarding the necessary permits.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      however much you deserve a dick to use as you see fit – heaven is still locked in discussion regarding the necessary permits.

      In my next life I want one. Or I refuse to come back.

  • Lisa

    Anacona, that is wonderful, congratulations!!!

    I would love to talk more about pregnancy in the forum… do you still post there? I haven’t seen anything new in the TTC thread.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Yes, because the pushing is the male version of a shit test, and your response is how he gauges.

    Of course it can also end up with the guy leaving if you are a good girl if he want a bad one at the moment. So I think is not the pushing early for sex what makes him a poor choice or not but what happens after the push.

    She and I are huge Criminal Minds fans and we were watching this past week’s episode we DVR’ed. Long story short, turns out the killer in the episode started his killing rampage after he discovered he had been cuckolded by his wife with his best friend. Anyways, I used this as a launching point for some discussion and quickly any points I made about women generally speaking she somehow took personally.
    My YA novel has a female character that cuckolds her beta orbiter from HS and is treated as a terrible thing to do, specially once her daughter finds out. Would American women accept that judgement? I know in my culture is considered a terrible thing to do too, well at least if the kid is not his. So this kind of things is worries me a bit. Is there any formal study on how many women actually consider cuckolding a “pecata minuta”

    I love it that Hope and Anacaona are pregnant together. They were sharing TTC worries recently, now they are joyous. We must find a way to have an HUS baby shower

    Utah, Boston, Southern California…well a cyber baby shower at the very least can be arranged. ;)

    I think this is undoubtedly true, and the irony is, odds are they were only with one man during their lives. The sexes have drifted very far from one another, and our guard is up most of the time. Real “knowing” is rare.
    I think knowing about the sexes always has the natural consequence of reducing promiscuity if a woman knows that a man will be willing to have sex with 80% of the women he meet there is no way you can celebrate she getting pumped and dumped no matter how attractive the guy was, but if you think men are like women and they will only bang people they want to have relationships with…obviously is a reason to feel “empowered”

    I would love to talk more about pregnancy in the forum… do you still post there? I haven’t seen anything new in the TTC thread.

    Well post there if you want to talk I always check it but since I was the last one I didn’t added anything new. I was thinking on erasing it and opening a different one. But we can keep that one.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Sassy
    I wish you good luck in your second try, hopefully thinks work for the best.

  • Rum

    New York Times reports today the nearly half of births to 30 years old “white” females are completely, no joke , dadless. Dadless forever. 50%missing uncles and cousins.
    The Obama inspired ammo droaght has ended. I can nowadays get a 1000 round box of 9mm Nato for around 200 dollars.

  • Desiderius

    “I was being sincere, I have no real motive to butter you up.”

    I know. I wasn’t being entirely serious, I’ll confess I had my advice regarding dealing with your target audience in mind when I painted things in that light.

    “I am especially fond of the literary bent you bring to these discussions.”

    The purpose there is to show that these challenges are not new ones – both so we can appreciate that they have been tackled before, and thus are not insurmountable, and there exist resources upon which we can draw in finding solutions.

    And, as you’ve noted, there is something in poetry which serves to raise our estimation of that which we and our fellow human beings are capable. That’s what humanism is about. Christian humanism, in my case, hence the avatar.

    As for the Christian piece, to which my namesake was unabashedly devoted, Christ himself serves as our alpha, to relieve us of the burden of the dominance games that would otherwise be required to constantly reestablish who the alpha is among ourselves. This is the peace that surpasseth all understanding.

    For the results of that civilization, see here:

    http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/11/the-decline-of-violence

    Christ also serves as our omega, to relieve us of the burden of finding the “other” to demonize, but that is more advanced theology than is perhaps appropriate for this forum.

    “As for shooting straight, I have found that usually leads to accusations that I’m trying to swing my big dick around.”

    How do you know they’re accusations and not admiration? With the decline of Christian humanist civilization, dominance games are again all the rage, or maybe I exaggerate. Competence at them I do sense is the price of admission for being taken seriously now.

    “Come to think of it, that’s from the Gen X’ers. Do you really think Gen Y is so different?”

    All I know is that the effectiveness of my teaching has taken off since I’ve become willing to (gently) establish dominance in my classroom.

    “I’m curious because we don’t know yet how, whether or when Millennials will marry.”

    I think the Boomers will see to it as they come to realize it is the only way that they can continue living in the manner to which they’ve become accustomed.

  • WarmWoman

    Mike C:

    I hope Susan doesn’t mind me posting links here, but being physically pushy is considered a warning sign in this article.

    http://www.modernghana.com/lifestyle/850/16/8-signs-hes-only-interested-in-sex.html

    In my last relationship where I felt like my partner was respectful of sexual boundaries, I recall him suggesting or hinting towards taking things the next level. I wouldn’t call it pushy though. My definition of pushy is someone trying to feel you up or talking non-stop about sex, and then getting mad when you’re not giving them what they want. Perhaps other people on here have a different definition of what it means to push for sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @WW

      I hope Susan doesn’t mind me posting links here

      No, not at all. The spam filter has – fingers crossed – been good lately. Only poor MMM got snagged for no reason. Usually one link won’t red flag a comment, though.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Talking about YA books…
    So I finished my second draft of my first book on my supernatural romance YA novel (80,000 words as of now), and I need some test readers. I opened a thread in the forum with details f0r anyone interested.
    Thanks.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Anacaona, count on me for the test reading.

  • Desiderius

    “I haven’t heard about an increase in femininity – do you have a sense of what’s driving that among high school students?”

    It’s pretty well bursting at the seams, but they’re still afraid to let much of it show. All the most attractive girls sign up to serve as aides for the developmentally disabled class where they’re allowed to let all their love hang out as long as they shower it on the lucky boys with severe disabilities.

    On the downside, my female math department head is mightily discouraged at the complete absence of female interest in her programming classes. Even the state champ girl soccer players turned into sissies when playing the boys in the dodgeball league I ran last year.

    As for drivers? Maybe ask Strauss and Howe, they’re the ones who predicted it 20 years ago.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Anacaona, count on me for the test reading.

    Yohami thank you for the offering but I need to warn you, is Supernatural Romance like you know Twilight and is inside the head of the leading lady as well with all that implies…are you into that genre?

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    I like Buffy and True Blood?

  • Jackie

    @Susan (#711)
    Hey Susan!

    “My husband is quite unhappy with the modifications to the language of the Mass. It affects the choir very dramatically, and he finds the language clunky. I agree with him. Not sure if you’ve seen this yet, Bellita, but I understand this will be worldwide. What is your opinion? (Note: I’m a C&E Catholic.)”

    My honest and harsh opinion: Epic FAIL. :( These people obviously don’t live in the real world. They think “consubstantial with the Father” is easier than “One in being with the Father, ” and I understand their intentions are to get back to a closer translation. But you know what they say about good intentions! ;)

    I really think they are missing the point. Of all the changes they can be making right now, *this* is the one they chose?! :(

    Imagine if they melted down all the gold in the Vatican, sold it trusting that God would provide, and used the money to devote to the “least among us” — churches would be packed to the rafters. People would *want* to come back to truly know God. And I bet the music would get way better, too. ;)

    (This is obviously not the place, but I have a lot of issues with the church hierarchy! The best way to put it is a quote from Thomas Jefferson: “I tremble for my country [church] when I reflect that God is just, and that justice cannot sleep forever.”)

    When I feel bad, I read this awesome book I got from my mentor, about a Jesuit priest who went to live and serve among gang members. He started a business called “Homeboy Industries” where they could work and renew themselves. It’s called, _Tattoos On The Heart: THe Power of Boundless Compassion_.

    http://www.amazon.com/Tattoos-Heart-Power-Boundless-Compassion/dp/1439153159/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

    I know this is long! Thanks for such a great question, Susan :) xoxo

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      Oh boy, don’t get me started on the hierarchy. Living in Boston when the abuse scandal broke, and watching Cardinal Law sail merrily along to the Vatican – that made my blood boil. Fortunately, our parish is at BC (Jesuit), so we’re outside the normal diocesan chain of command. It’s been a tough period – many regulars left the Church, and I became very disillusioned myself. My poor husband – he comes from a long line of Calvinist ministers, and converted to Catholicism when we had our first child. Now he’s the only good Catholic in the family :(

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I like Buffy and True Blood?
    I think True Blood is urban paranormal fantasy if I remember my genres right.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    It has chicks sex plots and supernatural weirdos

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It has chicks sex plots and supernatural weirdos

      What more could one ask for? I think True Blood is also written with great humor.

  • Jackie

    @Byron (#707)

    Hey Byron
    Glad you liked the passage & pleased to be of assistance!
    :-)

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Yet I personally find it hard to imagine living in a world where women are not educated, and do not produce anything besides children. And regardless of what happens with feminism – I do believe it will fail – we cannot return to such a world. It is unfathomable. Is there any compromise to be found?”

    Yes, I see folks like ourselves joining with bewildered feminists to fight a rear-guard action defending the gains of first-wave (equity) feminism within the next 10-20 years, which is why I’m cautious about blaming too much of our current MMP dysfunction on feminism itself.

    It reminds me of Talleyrand at the Congress of Vienna fighting valiantly (and with much success!) to save the stature and influence of France from the collapse of the French Revolution/Napoleon.

    We’re in the Napoleonic Age of the Sexual Revolution (second-wave feminism was the Terror) where it arrogantly seeks to drive all before it (see the recent trampling of economic and religious freedom in the name of “reproductive rights”), inviting the inevitable fall. We need to prepare now to survive the coming deluge.

    “No, those are literally Yale Women’s Center types who are indeed young Amanda Marcottes. The feminist speak is all over those comments. They’re completely prepped and rehearsed. I know a couple of women into that scene at Yale – it’s probably the most robust feminist college scene in the Ivies.”

    My apologies. Last I was in Ivy land (2004), I was unaware of any other, at least among the savvier women. Well, I guess there were the girls handing out evangelical pamphlets, but they weren’t taken seriously.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      We’re in the Napoleonic Age of the Sexual Revolution (second-wave feminism was the Terror)

      That’s brilliant. Great metaphor.

  • Jackie

    @Rum (#664)

    “Imagine a Saloon in the Olde West where everybody is drunk and carrying loaded pistols.”

    Hi Rum,
    Did you see Uncle Tom Munson’s commentary/fan fic, that features this exact scenario? Susan in the proprietor and “Naomi” is the name of the sawed-off shotgun she keeps under the bar to handle any “incidents.” It was hilarious! :)

    The rest of your comment was really great explanation of communication styles as well. :) Thanks, Rum!

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    It has chicks sex plots and supernatural weirdos

    I really love your support but you need to remember that I’m mostly a chicken (I’m doing this because I will soon need the money and mothers cannot afford have egos it that affects their children) and if you come down and tell me that is a “piece of crap” even if others test readers tell me is good. I will very likely not try to sell it or at the very least wait another year or two. I already was part of a literary group that principal function was to make sure you never publish anything unless is 100% perfect and loved by the “creme of the creme” and so far I am the only one from that group that has published at least 3 works so thank you but I really don’t think you will like it. I hope you don’t get mad if I ever have a book that I think you will actually enjoy I will sent it to you for sure.

  • Desiderius

    Jackie,

    Yes, I got an earful about those changes from my liberal Catholic friends last week. We have the opposite problem in the Presbyterian Church where our efforts to expurgate any mention of Fathers in our liturgy has introduced similar problems.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Bummer. Best of luck anyway.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “In my next life I want one. Or I refuse to come back.”

    Unless I’m mistaken, you do have one near at hand, do you not?

    I’m sure a second coming could be arranged.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Unless I’m mistaken, you do have one near at hand, do you not?

      I’m sure a second coming could be arranged.

      Heh, not good enough. I want to point and shoot.

  • Jackie

    @Desiderius

    Hi Desiderius,
    I was perhaps hyperbolic in my reply ;) I just see so much of church taken up by petty squabbling that I feel Jesus’s teachings are being lost. Does this make any sense?

    By the way, as the “Prince of Humanists” you are remarkably savvy for being 500+ years old! ;)

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Desiderius
    Christ also serves as our omega, to relieve us of the burden of finding the “other” to demonize, but that is more advanced theology than is perhaps appropriate for this forum.

    I love this. It may be the best thing I read on a “Game” blog all year. Thanks so much for writing it.

    @Susan
    My husband is quite unhappy with the modifications to the language of the Mass. It affects the choir very dramatically, and he finds the language clunky. I agree with him. Not sure if you’ve seen this yet, Bellita, but I understand this will be worldwide. What is your opinion? (Note: I’m a C&E Catholic.)

    You were right to guess that I haven’t heard it yet. We were supposed to get the new translation (in those churches that use the English language liturgy) at the start of this year, but so far nothing has changed.

    My American friends tend to be positive about the translation. (But of course I’d have friends who would be! :P) Honestly, you and Jackie are possibly the only Americans I can call friends who have been critical of it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My American friends tend to be positive about the translation. (But of course I’d have friends who would be! ) Honestly, you and Jackie are possibly the only Americans I can call friends who have been critical of it.

      I’m too old to relearn the Nicene Creed!

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Yohami
    Thank you, for understand. *Kissinthecheek*

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Susan
    Oh sorry I forgot to tell you that I’m asking for test readers at HUS because my leading lady is in college and is surrounded by the hook up culture so I need readers that are familiars with it at the very least. I hope that is okay.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Oh sorry I forgot to tell you that I’m asking for test readers at HUS because my leading lady is in college and is surrounded by the hook up culture so I need readers that are familiars with it at the very least. I hope that is okay.

      Of course! I hope you get some takers.

  • christiankp

    Dear Susan.
    I will stick around. I am so thankful that someone is trying to understand what I am saying. For now I will just reassure you that I never intended to say that women should not be educated or work. Women never were just taking care of children. Women have always been active in the economy, but women reigned in the moral economy where there was exchange of services and not money and men reigned in the money economy. Eventually the position of women in the moral economy became untenable and women were forced out into the money economy. I will write more of that later.

    For now I will only stress that although it may look as women’s gains are men’s losses, this is not a fairly accurate picture, although it is true, because the losses of men will come back to haunt women in the end and I believe that’s one of the reasons you, Susan, felt compelled to start this blog – although you might not have realized it when you did so.

    For every gain women make on the expense of men there will also be a loss to women far greater than loss you inflicted on men. So what women are basically doing right now is hurting themselves.

    It is time for women to realize this and change your course, but maybe it is to late.

    Now I must go to work so I can’t expand on these topics for now. I will return – it may take some days as it take some time for me to write, but for now you should take my word for it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @christiankp

      For every gain women make on the expense of men there will also be a loss to women far greater than loss you inflicted on men. So what women are basically doing right now is hurting themselves.

      I agree with this, and although I didn’t know it when I started the blog, I learned it here from male readers.

      It is time for women to realize this and change your course, but maybe it is to late.

      It is too late in the sense that opportunities for productive partnerships with men will continue to be greatly reduced. Men have paid the price until now, women will pay going forward. In that sense, the pendulum is already swinging. There will always be success stories, though, and that’s why I started the blog. To help people figure out ways to come out ahead in this SMP.

  • deti

    Susan:

    I’d like to note my thoughts on the male commenting here; in particular denial of the male experience and the “on the ground reality” and my comments. It has resulted in my tussling with Jesus M on this and the defining sexy thread. I’ve felt some efforts by you and Jesus M to silence and discredit me.

    On the defining sexy thread, Jesus M and I were debating back and forth about perfection. You chimed in that you thought I was arguing against Christian principles and demanded to know whether I am religious. Susan, the fact that I am a Christian doesn’t in any way detract from viewpoints I might make. It appeared your reference to whatever my spiritual beliefs might be was a suggestion that either (1) a Christian should not advance the argument I made; or (2) my argument should not be believed or credited simply because a Christian was making that argument. Perhaps you did not intend this, but this was certainly the way it came across.

    On this thread the “bitter! bitter! bitter!” meme has reared its ugly head. I responded that men need to let go of their bitterness but women must also let go of their unrealistic expectations and appreciate men for who and what they are rather than what men can do for them. Men are human beings in their own right, and do not exist merely to provide boyfriends, husbands, pack mules and providers for women who want those things.

    I again tussled with Jesus M. After trying to suss out his positions I suggested that all his arguments were Jesus M-oriented: If it didn’t affect him or he did not think it was a problem, then it was not a problem or did not exist. Jesus M then accused me of bitterness.

    When I tried to walk away from the argument, stating “whatever” and “I calls ‘em like I sees ‘em”, you then confronted me with the tone of my comments, lamented the “change” from nice lapdog deti to strident, pissed off deti (I paraphrase for dramatic effect), suggested the red pill had become lodged in my throat, and said you detected anger in my commenting tone. I then referred you back to my comment at #248 above and headed out.

    We all know what the “bitter!” meme is: “You’re just bitter!” The obvious suggestion is that the person’s bitterness and cynicism has distorted and perverted his perspective such that any arguments he advances are inherently incredible and should not be accepted. The “anger” meme is similar: “You’re just an angry, pissed off guy!” Again, the claim is that the person’s anger has clouded his judgment and perspective to such a degree that he cannot possibly advance a reasoned argument, and therefore he should not be believed. Both are attempts to discredit the person making the argument.

    I haven’t come here generalizing about anyone, or men or women (though I believe Mike C is correct that generalizations are at times appropriate). When I have overstepped it, you’ve confronted it, and I’ve acknowledged it. I haven’t come in here to piss on the carpet, and frankly I don’t think I’ve done so.

    It’s all well and good that you don’t want this place to become an outlet for male bitterness. I get that. That said, my coming here and posting in florid, blunt language in order to drive a point home with a little sardonic, dry humor is not bitterness and it’s not anger. It is “in your face”. It’s to the point. I admit my writing style here and elsewhere has become salty, sarcastic, pointed, even rude and vulgar at times. It’s intended to be. It’s intended to be bracing, attention-getting, and stark. I’m trying to help entertain and be interesting. I like to write, and frankly I think I’m pretty good at it. I’m trying to get the attention of some girl out there who struggles with these concepts. I’m trying to help give voice to some of the men who read, who might understand it but who might not be able to articulate it.

    Perhaps you or others don’t like my writing style. Perhaps you don’t think it’s funny or entertaining, or it doesn’t articulate the point. Some commenters do seem to like it. Some commenters seem to think I have a few things interesting to say. Perhaps my writing style or my views or the way I express those views are no longer welcome here. If that’s the case, so be it.

    Candidly, I’m disappointed to come here, post comments and add to lively discussions with people I’ve truly come to like and respect, only to have garden variety shaming language flung at me. “You’re bitter! You’re not to be believed!” That’s how Jesus M. came off. “You’re just an angry guy! Bad, bad deti!!” Susan, your later comment suggested genuine curiosity, and perhaps that’s the case. However, your initial comment didn’t come off as curious. Your tone came across as one of an irritated schoolmarm scolding a wayward seventh grader. I thought you were going to take out a virtual ruler and rap my knuckles. It was unnecessary, particularly since I don’t come here to mix it up, single out people or attack.

    Shaming language isn’t going to get you or the women here very far with red pill men. It just gives your detractors more ammunition to heave your way. You’re smarter and better than this, and so is the reputation you’ve carefully constructed these past few years.

    I do come here with strong opinions about ideas and concepts (NOT people) and I express them bluntly, but I’m not injuring or insulting anyone (except perhaps for Jesus M, who seems more and more willing to mix it up with and confront me of late).

    Lest anyone think I’m just butthurt, think again. I’ve been commenting here since early summer 2011. In these pages I’ve written and talked openly and explicitly about the most difficult marital crisis I’ve ever been through in nearly 16 years of marriage, and I came here for support for it. I did so not only to get some help with it by writing about it to a friendly, sympathetic audience. I took my licks in those threads. I was called a liar, a sexist, a chauvinist pig, a coward and a tyrant (albeit not by any regulars here). I also sincerely hoped that someone else would read it, learn from my mistakes, ask the right questions, and make better choices. Maybe they did, or not, but it’s a good story of how premarital sluthood and deceit can damn near wreck a good thing. (Long story short: Wife of 15 years says “I’m just not attracted to you”. deti tells wife “appreciate and respect me or we’re done”. Mrs. deti confesses understating her premarital partner count. deti responds by taking “trust but verify” policy adapted from US Cold War policy toward USSR. Operation Trust but Verify is still in effect today.)

    The entire point of this blog is to get women into marriages, as you’ve told us. I have something that the women who come here say they want — a marriage. It’s far from perfect. It’s taken some body blows in the last year but is still in the ring. It looks very different now from what it was when it started. But I’m willing to come here and tell your readers what I know about it, and about intergender relationships. And I can do it from a male perspective (MY perspective, not THE male perspective).

    Many women continually say they don’t understand men, they don’t understand what men want, they don’t get why they don’t have boyfriends, they can’t understand this messed up SMP. I have a little knowledge about it and I can help explain it. The way I explain it might not appeal to everyone, but it is valid. It’s not bitter, and it’s not angry. The fact that others might not like it or erroneously call it “bitter” or “angry” does not in any way detract from its validity.

    It’s not bitterness to acknowledge the very real pain and frustration men feel. I’m not here trying to choke down the last of the red pill. I’m trying to use what I know and my writing skill to describe it so that women who read here will understand what many men REALLY think and feel about it. Giving voice to that frustration doesn’t mean I’m angry, nor does it mean that anger is bad.

    And this isn’t about me. My bed is made and Mrs. deti and I will have to lie in it the best we can–either together or not. She will have to continue living her life as an open book and I’ll have to continue trusting but verifying. It is no longer about me, or her. I have children to worry about. As I said at 248 above, I have a daughter who I want to have a good life without slutting it up. If she wants a husband and children, it’s in her interest not to destroy her MMV.

    I have a son who I want to learn game so he can expand his options, live how he wants and not get knocked up, punked, or chumped out. I want him to have what he wants, whether that’s marital bliss, the player life, or GHOW.

    I am not an MRA. I don’t subscribe to MGTOW (though I understand it). I don’t play for Team HUS, or Team Susan Walsh, or Team This or That Blogger-of-the-Month, or Team Woman or even Team Man. I’m just going where the facts lead me. I play for Team Truth.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      I saw your comment suggesting I not respond, but I feel I need to. I’m not sure why you wouldn’t want me to, but you felt strongly enough to write that and it’s been up all day. There are some things I would like to say.

      I’d like to note my thoughts on the male commenting here; in particular denial of the male experience and the “on the ground reality”

      It is not my intention to deny anyone’s experience. I don’t think there is one male experience, nor do I think there is one female experience. Any individual’s experience will depend on many things. We cannot even say that betas all have the same experiences. Very good looking betas are going to have different experiences than less attractive guys. STEM majors are going to have different experiences by virtue of the fact that they meet fewer women. We can speak about general trends and characteristics in the SMP, but there is tremendous variation. YMMV is an understatement. Your mileage will vary, and very dramatically.

      There are times when statements here do not reflect my own experiences, or reports I receive from others. And surely my perceptions will not match yours sometimes, or perhaps even at all. I am not saying your experience is invalid, or inaccurate, for you. As I look around at my own family, social circle and community I see mostly stable marriages between beta males and women who never rode the carousel (or if they did, one would never guess). Divorce is rare. Some reports here do not confirm my own sense of the SMP. I’m not sure what to do about that, except to say that I respect your views, even as I believe they are not universally shared, even by men.

      You chimed in that you thought I was arguing against Christian principles and demanded to know whether I am religious.

      This is the point that I wondered about:

      “No one is completely lovable. I’m not. You’re not. Your GF isn’t. Mrs. deti isn’t. You learn to live with that which you don’t like or love.”

      It struck me right away as being 180 degrees opposed from Jesus’ primary message. I asked if you were Christian, I did not demand anything. I was not accusing you, as I am not particularly religious myself. I was curious. Later in the thread I stated, after reading more comments from you, that I believed you and Jesus were not far apart in your views, and that I thought the difference was one of semantics. I’m sorry if I offended you.

      Men are human beings in their own right, and do not exist merely to provide boyfriends, husbands, pack mules and providers for women who want those things.

      I’m surprised you feel that it’s necessary to make such a statement here. I don’t recall who mentioned bitterness, I believe it has been referred to by several people here, including men I would describe as sharing your views. I understand the visceral reaction to the word bitterness, but it is a word which characterizes a particular attitude, one that combines hurt and resentment with anger and a desire for revenge. Unfortunately, these feelings are not unusual among men here, particularly those that have recently swallowed the red pill.

      you then confronted me with the tone of my comments, lamented the “change” from nice lapdog deti to strident, pissed off deti

      I never thought you were a lapdog. When I published your essay about Summer, I found it beautifully written, perceptive and poignant. For all the disappointment, there was little anger. It was very accessible. Later, when you explained your Trust But Verify approach, the women here defended you enthusiastically against those ManBoobz types. Since then I sense there has been an increasingly angry tone.

      That said, my coming here and posting in florid, blunt language in order to drive a point home with a little sardonic, dry humor is not bitterness and it’s not anger. It is “in your face”. It’s to the point. I admit my writing style here and elsewhere has become salty, sarcastic, pointed, even rude and vulgar at times. It’s intended to be. It’s intended to be bracing, attention-getting, and stark. I’m trying to help entertain and be interesting. I like to write, and frankly I think I’m pretty good at it.

      I’m glad you shared this. It’s an honest response to the question I asked the other day. I confess it isn’t a writing style that I find particularly accessible or easy to respond to, but it helps to understand your motive.

      I do come here with strong opinions about ideas and concepts (NOT people) and I express them bluntly, but I’m not injuring or insulting anyone

      I believe that you do not mean to injure or insult anyone, but I sometimes feel both of those things when you write. Not necessarily only at HUS, but elsewhere too. For example, this comment, which you left at Badger’s:

      But the points you and I make [at HUS] meet with a lot of resistance because they are a direct challenge to the mindset that women should get everything they want from sex and relationships but men have to accept whatever scraps women are willing to throw them.

      I feel hurt by it, and I also feel that it grossly misrepresents what I’m trying to do here, and what women are saying in the comment threads. It’s unfair, it’s facile and it’s inaccurate. You are free to say whatever you want about me or HUS, but don’t expect that such statements will increase your welcome here.

      I’ll end by saying that I value your opinion and your insights. I understand that you’ve been through the wringer in the last year, and I fully support your chosen response to Mrs. Deti. I hope that you will continue to post here, but please do not do so in the hopes of telling women what they need to hear, if that means accusing us of treating men like pack mules who feed on scraps.

  • Butterfly Flower

    @Ana: Congrats on your pregnancy! :)

    I’m starting to wonder if there is a generational gap, and if today’s 16-20 year old is starting to have very different views/behaviors/etc then the 30-35 year old woman of today.

    I fall within the 16-20 year old bracket, and [as I've mentioned before] I have an extraordinarily difficult time interacting with older women. I wish I could say I’m exaggerating, but IRL, I just don’t know any decent 30-35 year old women. Compared to my generation, Gen X women are really difficult to get along with.

    The worst thing I’ve noticed about Gen X women is that they have elastic values [or non-existent values?], which leads to them engaging in amusing hypocritical behavior. For example, I’ve had single 30+ women complain about being single, then tell me I’m too young to get married. Or I’ve had older Christian women tell me “pre-marital kissing is a first class ticket to hell!” despite the fact that they themselves rode the carousel [why are the biggest promoters of hardlined abstinence always reformed sluts?] & don’t get me started on the horrible marital advice I’ve been receiving. “Ask him to buy you a car/house/Caribbean timeshare…” *facepalm*

    Gen Y isn’t perfect, but these behaviors [hypocrisy, selfish materialism] seem less prevalent.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    Anacaona – Felicitaciones para la nueva adicion a su familia. Que tenga un buen parto y mucha felicidad.

    Hope – They tell me you are expecting as well. Thank God. May you and your husband’s tribe increase .

    Desiderius- Who will get to play Alexander I of the Sexual Revolution, I wonder?

    Susan – Don’t worry about the yobbos accusing you of plagarising the 80/20 meme from Roissy. I remember discussing it on the hoary old Mancoat/Nice Guy forum as far back as 2002, when Roissy was still pushing paper in the State Department. That’s the nature of Internet memes. I don’t even remember where I got it from, but now it’s orthodoxy.

    Speaking of which, Orthodox Lent is upon us, so I will take my leave along with the observant Catholics and wish everyone a very prosperous and fruitful late winter and early spring. See you after Easter – which is a week after Catholic Easter this year. :(

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mule

      I wish you a meaningful Lenten journey. We will miss you and look forward to your return.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Mulaquemasticaespinas
    Muchas gracias :)

  • Butterfly Flower

    Speaking of which, Orthodox Lent is upon us, so I will take my leave along with the observant Catholics and wish everyone a very prosperous and fruitful late winter and early spring. See you after Easter – which is a week after Catholic Easter this year. :(

    Is Orthodox Easter the same as Greek Easter?

    Also, a lot of Catholics here are giving up the internet. I’ll especially miss Bellita’s blog :(

  • Mike C

    Mike C:

    I hope Susan doesn’t mind me posting links here, but being physically pushy is considered a warning sign in this article.

    http://www.modernghana.com/lifestyle/850/16/8-signs-hes-only-interested-in-sex.html

    In my last relationship where I felt like my partner was respectful of sexual boundaries, I recall him suggesting or hinting towards taking things the next level. I wouldn’t call it pushy though. My definition of pushy is someone trying to feel you up or talking non-stop about sex, and then getting mad when you’re not giving them what they want. Perhaps other people on here have a different definition of what it means to push for sex.

    WarmWoman,

    I actually think that article is a very good one in terms of pointers in sussing out a guy who is only interested in you for sex. I agree with the vast majority of it. In my mind, there is a massive difference between being “pushy” about sex versus what I’d call assertive masculine escalation. In short, when I think of a guy being “pushy” for sex I think of almost an aggressive used car salesman demeanor, and a guy who has lost his frame, and become emotional and tries to cajole or plead. The proper thing is to escalate hard and if you get shut down firmly, to react with aloof indifference, not get even more pushy.

    Anyways, my advice to any guy who would ask me would be to escalate hard in a non-pushy manner which often involves 2 steps forward, 1 step back, or 1 step forward and 1 step back and than trying to take the step forward again. The key on the guy’s part is to know when to pull the plug in that moment in time and not try any further. Now if a woman wants to pull the plug on a guy because she thinks he escalated too much, that is certainly her prerogative. In my experience, the vast majority of women aren’t going to punish a guy for escalation if he knows when to back off, and in fact the opposite is true in that a guy will get punished if he doesn’t escalate enough because she’ll question his interest, his attraction, that he is too timid.

    At the end of the day, few women will directly verbalize what level of activity they are comfortable with at a moment in time, so it is up to the guy to figure it out by pushing the boundary, gauging the reaction, and then calibrating appropriately (moving forward or backing off with the right attitude).

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    What Mike C said.

  • pvw

    Susan: It is too late in the sense that opportunities for productive partnerships with men will continue to be greatly reduced. Men have paid the price until now, women will pay going forward. In that sense, the pendulum is already swinging. There will always be success stories, though, and that’s why I started the blog. To help people figure out ways to come out ahead in this SMP.

    My reply:

    And I’m seeing it among a fair number of millenials that I know IRL, but the key is that they come from families where there was effective modeling and encouragement to be marriage-minded from the beginning. I’ll post on the millenials’ marriage essay on this.

    Susan:

    Re. being a C&E Catholic and Easter–”My poor husband – he comes from a long line of Calvinist ministers, and converted to Catholicism when we had our first child. Now he’s the only good Catholic in the family.”

    My reply: I wonder how things might have been different if you joined his denomination? Was that an option?

    I wasn’t living in New England when that scandal broke, but it is interesting that a number of former Catholics who have become Episcopalian like me have told me that story and the hierarchical nature of the Church as one that pushed them out towards our denomination, where there is a greater role for the laity in the hierarchy.

    I noticed the differences in the Catholic liturgy when I visited some relatives for the holidays. I’m with you; I had problems saying the new creed when I remembered the earlier one from my childhood.

    The last time the Episcopalians had that sort of liturgical change was back in the 1970s; they had various trial runs with the new liturgy and then left it up to the local churches to decide whether they preferred the old language or the new–the new prayer book offered both options.

    Happy Lent to all those taking a break from the internet! I’m not going to. I will use the time, though, for some fasting and extra observances–no chocolate and I’m running an extra Lenten adult ed series. The last one we did was in Advent. We have the same period of Lent beginning with Ash Wednesday–I’ll go to services Wed. evening–a joing service with a few other Episcopal churches in the area. It’s funny, when I have gone to Ash Wed. services in the day, I appear to be Catholic; so this time, going in the evening, I’ll miss that experience….Not a problem, though.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PVW

      Thanks for your response. I could never feel comfortable in a Calvinist denomination – I love all the rituals and ceremony, especially incense! There is a wonderful Episcopal parish near us, and we do go there sometimes. The pastor is an ex-Jesuit priest who fell in love with a nun. They both left the church, married and adopted two children. It’s a possible option, but my husband absolutely loves singing in the choir at St. Iggy’s. It’s such a great church for music – there are several non-Catholics who come to sing there. He is very committed (they’re perpetually short on basses) and loath to leave. We shall see how this plays out in the next few years. I think your approach makes a great deal of sense.

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    “I learned it here from male readers. ”

    Now that would make for an interesting post; How your views have developed over the period that you’ve been running…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      Now that would make for an interesting post; How your views have developed over the period that you’ve been running

      That’s a great idea! I love that. I might juxtapose Before and After. What I thought when I was ignorant, and what I know now. Thanks, that is going on the short list.

  • WarmWoman

    Mike C

    Thanks for explaining. That makes a lot of sense. Since we all have different experiences, how we perceive things and terms on here could be different. Assertive masculine escalation doesn’t seem to be problem then. :)

  • J

    Grandma and Great-Grandma probably knew and understood men 100x better than today’s woman.

    I see a bit of romanticism here. I am old enough to have known the tail end of those generations before the big social changes that the 60s brought with them occuedr. I know that there is a lot of nostalgia for the stability of those days and agree that we have a great many more social ills now because of that instability than existed back then. OTOH, I don’t recall seeing all that many enviable marriages when I was growing up or a tremendous respect for men by any of those older women. Many were unhappy but afraid to try to support themselves or to face the social and religious diapproval that came with divorce. And some of the happiest were those who regarded their husbands as an extra child and humored him. Is that Grandma and Great-Grandma knowing and understanding men 100x better than today’s women?

  • Desiderius

    Jackie,

    “I just see so much of church taken up by petty squabbling that I feel Jesus’s teachings are being lost.”

    As opposed to the rest of life where there are no petty squabbles at all? Of course, at HUS we do take care to make sure our squabbles aren’t petty, I’ll grant you that.

    No, church is just the place, when functioning properly, where you have ready means available for rising (together) above the petty squabbles. Ours is in a nice place right now where other (very good) stuff is sort of crowding out any squabbling, at least among me and my peers…

    “By the way, as the “Prince of Humanists” you are remarkably savvy for being 500+ years old! ;)

    The Erasmus book currently residing next to my toilet has a blurb on the back that screams “Four centuries ahead of his time!”, so I suppose here I (finally) am, Lord.

  • Desiderius

    “My poor husband – he comes from a long line of Calvinist ministers, and converted to Catholicism when we had our first child. Now he’s the only good Catholic in the family”

    Well, Calvin himself was the second-best catholic of the 16th Century, so that follows naturally.

    In all seriousness, my guess is that history will come to see Koral Wojtyla as one of humanity’s finest representatives, and at a time (Hiroshima/Auschwitz) when such was most needed. I’m a buttress of today’s Catholic Church – I strongly support it from the outside. I try to be a pillar of the catholic one.

  • Desiderius

    Mule,

    “Desiderius- Who will get to play Alexander I of the Sexual Revolution, I wonder?”

    Even I try not to mix my metaphors quite that severely. As for Wellingtons, you may be reading her blog. As with the Duke, she will need help.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    deti,

    A few things. First, I don’t think there’s any man here, unless he’s been through it himself, that can fully comprehend the pain and difficulty of what you’re going through with your wife. Coming at you after 15 yrs and telling you, a. I’m just not attracted to you, and b. I lied about my history, sounds… malicious. Honestly, I’m not sure how your marriage is still operating. I imagine that if I were in your situation, such a move on my wife’s part would create an irrevocable rift between us.

    The fact that you’re still there trying to work it out is a testament to your character. The idea of a cold war approach to marriage doesn’t appeal to me personally. For the sake of everyone, including the kids, I’d cut and run. But… I have a lot of respect for your decision to stay.

    All that said…. you telling me that my POV is all about me and that if it doesn’t apply to me than I don’t care…. and then complaining about me trying to shame you…. all that is disingenuous. You tried to shame me. I just pointed out the obvious truth: you’re bitter. Any man in your position who didn’t experience some bitterness wouldn’t be human. I would have, and so would any other guy here. That said, your experience with what I would call (with no disrespect to you) a shitty fucking wife has no doubt affected your view of women as a whole.

    I like having you around. But just like you, I call it like I see it. If you don’t like that, then… I don’t know what to tell you.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @deti, I hesitate to say this, but you may remember that I have an ex who lied to me for almost ten years. I tried to support you back when you were talking about dealing with it, because I do think I have an idea how it feels. I personally could not deal with such a deep level of lying and deception. I was 24, almost 25, we had no kids or real asset, so I left. It was the best decision I ever made.

    But you do have kids and have made a life together. Like Jesus Mahoney, I greatly respect your decision to stay and try to work it out. However, I do think your view of women is being colored by your wife and the women she associates with, and that is also coloring your views of the young women posting here or any hypothetical woman. They are basically “guilty before proven innocent.”

    I prefer to view people on an individual basis. I think it is not fair to make an innocent stranger suffer for the sins of others. That is partially why the young women who either lurk or briefly posted become hesitant to engage in the discussions here. They may not have done any major wrong, yet they are viewed with suspicion and treated with disparagement all the same. Some of them might have done a wrong thing or two, but they are virtually crucified over hot psychological coal for the wrongs of other women who wronged the male commenters personally.

    What young woman in her late teen’s or early 20′s wants to engage in a discussion like that? They won’t. Even young college-age guys don’t want to talk much here because it’s so, for a lack of a better word, intense. They’re still just kids, without much life experience, still trying to figure things out. Using colorful, forceful language on them is just like another professor talking down to them from the podium. You won’t really have much success lambasting the same audience that you’re trying to convert. “You suck — now listen to me!” isn’t very persuasive.

    Susan may have said some personally shaming things, but she has overall been very accomodating and supportive of the male commenters here. She also liked and applauded what you were doing in the difficult situation with Mrs. deti, and has been a consistent voice of reason. She probably does not want to single you or anyone else out for changing the “tone” of the discussion here, but it has indeed changed. I notice it much more when I go to one of Susan’s much older posts where young college-age kids posted their romantic problems. They don’t post here now, because they don’t want the high-level theories about the modern SMP or the essays about feminism, they just want to know if that guy or girl likes them, or how they can get a call back.

    Of course a blog is constantly evolving, and I happen to like theorycrafting and high-level discussions, so I find the discussions interesting. At the same time, if you really want to change “hearts and minds,” I suspect that shaming language used on younger women works about as well as shaming language used on older men. That is to say, not very well at all.

  • deti

    Jesus M., Hope:

    I understand perfectly where you’re coming from. I don’t agree with your characterizations, but that’s really neither here nor there.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @deti, it’s not just you, but also other older male commentators. Certainly you write a lot of wisdom, but a young woman who reads words of wisdom does not necessarily understand the wisdom contained therein, especially if it comes with a string of ad hominems. That’s mostly what I’m trying to say.

    And here’s where I’ll get personal — you know why I was able to read the manosphere for so long? My female relatives and my own mother insulted me from a young age, calling me all sorts of names, and so I can stomach it no problem. The emotional impact of words on a screen is nothing compared to being screamed at for an hour when you’re half someone’s height. Most young women growing up today will just move on.

  • deti

    Hope:
    OK, but I’ve never ad hominem attacked anyone, including you or Jesus M despite his opinion to the contrary.

    Now I’m going. I’m not going to hijack this thread further. I’ve said what I had to say.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Hope,

    And here’s where I’ll get personal — you know why I was able to read the manosphere for so long? My female relatives and my own mother insulted me from a young age, calling me all sorts of names, and so I can stomach it no problem.

    This is an interesting observation. After hanging around for a few months, I’m also able to stomach a lot of this stuff (I even came across PMAFT’s site the other day, though I would never dare comment. Seems like that’d be diving into a snakehole). But I never really had family members scream at me.

    Perhaps it’s that the ladies who read the manosphere have dealt with stuff a lot of young women haven’t. For me, it was medical problems and bullying. For the married women not in their twenties, it seems like marriage has given them a new perspective.

    Perhaps this is my own “bitterness” talking, or perhaps my lower-middle-class background, but sometimes I really feel like American college students live in a bubble of so-called perfection. They don’t know what real life is, and they’re horrified when they get a glimpse