This is the first of a two-part article on the political and economic forces surrounding marriage trends. Part Two may be found here.
Kate Bolick has ridden her Atlantic November cover article All the Single Ladies all the way to fame and fortune. It’s the most read article in the magazine’s history, was optioned as a TV show in development by Sony, and recently generated a book deal in the high six figures for Bolick. The book is titled Among the Suitors: Single Women I Have Loved. The announcement says “It develops a sly blend of autobiography and literary portraiture to question the conventional marriage trajectory.“
I congratulate Kate on her incredible success. She has clearly struck a nerve, and emancipated single women of a certain age are rushing to join the conversation and celebrate their single status. This is a marked reversal of the spinster lit trend of the last few years, where unhappily single women in their late 30s published memoirs attempting to come to terms with where they went wrong, and reaffirming their vow to continue their search for a life partner.
Ironically, the feminist media that champions Kate’s choice glossed over Kate’s opening in the Atlantic piece:
The decision to end a stable relationship for abstract rather than concrete reasons (“something was missing”), I see now, is in keeping with a post-Boomer ideology that values emotional fulfillment above all else. And the elevation of independence over coupling (“I wasn’t ready to settle down”) is a second-wave feminist idea I’d acquired from my mother, who had embraced it, in part, I suspect, to correct for her own choices.
…I was her first and only recruit, marching off to third grade in tiny green or blue T-shirts declaring: A WOMAN WITHOUT A MAN IS LIKE A FISH WITHOUT A BICYCLE, or: A WOMAN’S PLACE IS IN THE HOUSE—AND THE SENATE.
…What my mother could envision was a future in which I made my own choices. I don’t think either of us could have predicted what happens when you multiply that sense of agency by an entire generation.
Though feminism has brought us here, to a declining marriage rate and a female population more independent and educated than their male would-be partners, Kate Bolick and other women in her shoes are wise to focus on finding their bliss in life without a man. We’re facing at least a generation where a third of college-educated women will not marry college-educated men. This, among other factors, will continue to apply significant pressure to the declining marriage rate. It makes good sense for women to make the best life they can with or without a man, as many will not have the opportunity to marry.
Still, that’s different than championing singlehood over couplehood, which is where the momentum is now. Boston Magazine’s January issue featured an article by Janelle Nanos, Single By Choice, interviewing women (and one man) who prefer to remain single and do not want to be victimized by “singlism,” the social stigmas that unmarried people face. The term singlism was coined by Bella DePaulo, a psych professor at UCSB who is considered “the arbiter of the unmarried agenda.” And that’s the critical point here – there is an agenda that sees much more at stake than personal happiness and fulfillment.
Terri Tespicio, a writer who was interviewed for the article, said:
The idea that I would marry someone I loved has never crossed my mind. At 38, I feel more powerful and sexier and in control than I have ever felt…My life is a best-kept secret, and I wouldn’t trade it. As a single person, the world is my oyster. I’m just sorry that people who are married don’t have that freedom.
Even stronger proof of a political agenda may be found in a statement from Lisa Berkman, a professor at the Harvard School of Public Health who states:
Single people who have strong social ties often have fewer health risks than those “greedy” married couples who isolate themselves.
There will be a great deal more shaming of married people in the next 20 years, as women engage in whatever cognitive dissonance (or hamsterwheeling) is necessary to find an escape from singlism and more importantly, a nagging sense of personal disappointment. The Single By Choice movement is described this way:
They come in all shapes and sizes. They’re young men, who are the fastest growing percentage of those living on their own. They’re well-educated women, who are refusing to “marry down” to their less credentialed prospects. They’re gays and lesbians watching their friends in same-sex couples ensconse themselves behind white picket fences. Some have taken up their own distinguishing monikers, calling themselves quirkyalones, singulars, onelies or spinsterellas.
In truth, the population most affected by these trends, and they account for nearly all of those who identify with the movement, are never-married women in their 30s and 40s. It remains to be seen whether 20-something women will get on board before they know whether they will have the opportunity to marry. When Kate Bolick asked the young women at our dinner together whether her single status at the age of 39 freaked them out, they all nodded, awkwardly but truthfully. Each one of them also stated that they planned to prioritize having a family over pursuing a career. I suspect that the up and coming generation of women views these celebrations of singleness as a cautionary tale, and they’re anxious to make sure they won’t be calling themselves onelies or quirkyalones if they can help it.
While I am a supporter of marriage as the bedrock of civilization, I support the right of any individual to choose to remain single, and to find their happiness in life where they will. But let’s not kid ourselves. The Single By Choice movement is political, not personal.
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That was me. I just want to clarify that I do respect Mike C’s views enormously. But as Susan said, he does extrapolate his experiences and views to the wider male/female population, which is erroneous at best. That conversation was the snapping point for me, where he both invalidated my experiences (and indirectly implied that I was unattractive). I subsequently apologized for my outburst, and I’ll apologize here again, because it was inappropriate of me to react that way.
But we would all be better off if we noted our personal experiences as OUR individual experiences, and didn’t characterize male/female behavior in certain ways. For instance, I wouldn’t ever say that all men are assholes, and then say that that generalization wasn’t intended to be applied to the male commenters here. It is still awful to have your sex insulted, even if you are not the particular target of that statement.
Any time, Ana. You know where to find me if you need me.
My brother has never dated, he’s nearly 21.
To be honest, it’s not the addiction that has taken him out of the SMP. It’s more that he has things he enjoys doing, and he has not found a woman for whom he is willing to give up those activities (one of which is computer games). Maybe he will, maybe he won’t. That’s his prerogative.
Olive, you know your brother better than I do, but I am skeptical of this. My first guess is your brother has already given up when it comes to women, dating, sex. I don’t know his high school experience, what he looks like, anything. A normal 21-year old guy should have a drive to fuck that is off the charts. No interest in women isn’t normal. Either he is asexual, or in a state of depression or denial about this.
I look back, and thank God I got rid of my V-card at 22 and had at least some success with woman in my early 20s after an abysmal time from my teens through 22. I can’t imagine the hell it would have been to try and dig out of that hole at 27,28,29.
Its up to you, but you might consider pushing here to see what he really thinks. If he is putting up a facade, he can still turn it around. If he waits until his late 20s, it is going to be much more difficult
Mike C,
Actually I had an interesting conversation with him about his lack of experience quite recently. He’s had various girls throwing themselves at him in the last year or two. The most recent one had a partner count of 21 in one semester, and he said she “wasn’t his type.” When I suggested hooking up with her, he said “that’s mean.”
Basically, he’s a relationship dude who doesn’t want to P&D and is also extremely picky. My guess? He’ll get to a point where he doesn’t give a fuck anymore, but as of now he’s not interested in casual sex.
My BF actually told me he was reaching that point when we met. He also had hardly any experience at 21, which didn’t really matter to me, but I guess it matters to a lot of girls or else 21-year-old virgins would be no big deal.
Jackie,
Of course not. I wasn’t suggesting any such thing. I think people should be evaluated based on who they are now. NOT so that we can say this or that person is inherently good or bad, but so that we can say this or that person is a good or bad person to have a relationship with—at this point in time.
Congrats Anacaona! I hope she gets whatever gene it is that is responsible for your clear thinking
Thanks. Well I’m handling pregnancy like my mom so so far the chances seem good.
Thanks again J.
Mike C,
Actually I had an interesting conversation with him about his lack of experience quite recently. He’s had various girls throwing themselves at him in the last year or two.
I’m assuming he is at least a somewhat good-looking guy?
The most recent one had a partner count of 21 in one semester, and he said she “wasn’t his type.” When I suggested hooking up with her, he said “that’s mean.”
I’m not going to advocate that guy P&D just to do it, but his verbal response indicates to me he has some strong white-knighting/pedestalizing tendencies.
My BF actually told me he was reaching that point when we met. He also had hardly any experience at 21, which didn’t really matter to me, but I guess it matters to a lot of girls or else 21-year-old virgins would be no big deal.
It does to many because the subtext is “loser without options”. At 21, in many cases, it is actually a decent guy who may be OK or even good looking who simply never learned or had any practice approaching and talking to girls.
@Maggie and Olive, my husband and I are the same way with respect to video games. We both played a ton of MMORPGs throughout college, graduated with A’s and B’s, and got decent jobs (in his case after graduate school). Like Olive, I don’t think it’s the video games that are the culprit.
For him, video games were fun, entertaining, a social outlet and worth his free time when he didn’t have some other urgent pressing matter to attend to. He never expected to meet me playing a video game, but it was a bonus that he did. I think for a lot of highly intelligent men, the time/reward ratio is just not there for “traditional dating.” So they’d rather spend that time doing other things.
Also, he doesn’t really want to give up video gaming (for a girl), and the number of women that play video games is low (comparatively speaking). At the same time, ironically, he’s met plenty of women playing video games, but they often had boyfriends or husbands, or were not compatible in some other way. He also did meet a girl from a video game and had a brief fling sort of thing with her, a few years before me.
Anyway, I see video gaming as something like the the nerdy person’s social hobby. Unlike those who go skiing, or mountain biking, or other “cool” activities out in the real world, we do activities that we think are “cool” in the virtual world. Just because it is new and less understood by the mainstream does not make it automatically bad.
Just because it is new and less understood by the mainstream does not make it automatically bad.
Is useless Hope. Video games, Romance novels, Porn… All those things are the cause of the downfall of human race if you are not a fan of it or worst if you were a fan and it actually affected your life and you had to quit. There is no bigger hater than a former fan gone wrong. That applies to religion, sports and politics BTW, IME, YMMV.
Ana,
Congrats!
Thank you JM.
Please, let me be clear. I am not blaming video games for the downfall of the human race. For the VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE, video games are fun and harmless and maybe beneficial. If you get good grades, you do not have a problem. If you have good relationships with the opposite gender, you do not have a problem. If you do well at your job, you do not have a problem. Please enjoy your games.
Mike C,
Objectively speaking, yes. He’s also been hitting the gym lately and lost about 30 lbs. in the last few years, which probably significantly increases his SMV. Dunno if he’s doing that to be more attractive, or just to be more healthy. He hasn’t said.
Agreed. But… it’s not for me to discuss pedestalizing with him. His friends are starting to bug him, as is my dad. I feel they’re more qualified to advise him. I’m just his bratty older sister.
Objectively speaking, yes. He’s also been hitting the gym lately and lost about 30 lbs. in the last few years, which probably significantly increases his SMV. Dunno if he’s doing that to be more attractive, or just to be more healthy. He hasn’t said.
My money would be on being more attractive/boosting his SMV. I graduated college at 6’3″ 265 around 30% bodyfat, and I was like “I am not going to die a virgin”. Knowing nothing about Game (the concept didn’t even exist in 1995) I focused on physical appearance because I knew that was what I was attracted to in women. Under a year I dropped down to 200 at around 10% bodyfat, was tanning regularly, etc. It was all with the objective of boosting my attractiveness. I could be wrong, but I’m guessing he is trying to increase the caliber of girls he thinks he can pull. One problem though, if the inner game/inner beliefs are all fucked up, the outward appearance won’t make up for it. Believe me, I know. I could be entirely off here, but I am just trying to connect the dots you’ve presented.
Agreed. But… it’s not for me to discuss pedestalizing with him. His friends are starting to bug him, as is my dad. I feel they’re more qualified to advise him. I’m just his bratty older sister.
Maybe not. But you are smart, and you understand this shit and the various issues. You don’t want him to get chewed up and spit out out there.
Mike C
Is very interesting in church when they try to teach guys to be abstinent till marriage they usually mention that as they get older it will be easier so they should hang in there. So there is truth on that of course in our church the male is still considered the leader of the relationship, and I know many virgin girls that wanted a virgin husband too, so is different.
@Olive, my husband was being bugged by his dad when he was 24ish and living in his dad’s basement (playing WoW) that he should date, get a girl, all that stuff.
It wasn’t that he didn’t want a girl, but more that he felt the girls he knew were too immature and not really “girlfriend material.” He had very high standards and didn’t want to have a string of casual hook-ups, so he just kept to himself and kept his eyes open in case a girl came along.
So yeah, he looked rather “unsuccessful” and a “loser” with women until we met. Except he’s really a great catch.
Anyway back to Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
Oh before I forget… @Anacaona how far along?
@ Olive:
“I guess it matters to a lot of girls or else 21-year-old virgins would be no big deal.”
Probably because, as Mike C mentioned, 21 yr old males’ desire for sex is off the charts.
@Hope:
What a lovely story! I think it’s smart of your husband to wait for the right person to come along than date someone that wouldn’t go anywhere.
I’ve had periods in my life where I was single for a few years and was questioned on it(I had a date ask me if I was gay, lol!), so that makes me feel better that I’m not alone.
Mike C
Is very interesting in church when they try to teach guys to be abstinent till marriage they usually mention that as they get older it will be easier so they should hang in there.
No, it won’t. I remember how I was starting to feel in my junior and senior year of college at 20-21. I can’t even fathom what 28 would have been like. You show me a guy who is a virgin at 28, 30, 35, and I’ll show you a guy who is seriously mentally fucked up. The virgin until marriage thing only really works when you have a religious couple getting married at 19, 20, 21, 22.
and I know many virgin girls that wanted a virgin husband too, so is different.
Could be. I don’t know. Now I am going to GENERALIZE here (get your tomatos to throw at me) but my experience is most women want a guy with at least some implied sexual success. Now some cultures, religions, and upbringings might be able to teach a woman not to listen to this base drive.
Mike C,
Yeah it’s a good point. Two things I’ve noticed: he doesn’t put up with shit from people, and the extroverted, loud ladies turn him off. In other words, he’s not going to take just anyone. I have no idea what he’d be like in a relationship though.
My sense of the issue is basic approach anxiety, combined with a lack of experience interacting with girls. I’ve never known him to have female friends, and he seems to stay away from girls as a whole. It seems like a combination of shyness and disinterest in girls his own age. I have four female roommates his age and I can say without a doubt that he wouldn’t be interested in any of them.
It wasn’t that he didn’t want a girl, but more that he felt the girls he knew were too immature and not really “girlfriend material.” He had very high standards and didn’t want to have a string of casual hook-ups, so he just kept to himself and kept his eyes open in case a girl came along.
So yeah, he looked rather “unsuccessful” and a “loser” with women until we met. Except he’s really a great catch.
This is fascinating to me because it does show there are some guys that if they cannot get a Ladder 1 girl at that moment in time, then they don’t even want a Ladder 2 girl either. I’ll admit that I cannot relate to this in any way. Apparently, he found some way to totally ignore his drive for sex if it wasn’t with a girl who met relationship standards.
Yeah this pretty much describes my brother exactly.
My sense of the issue is basic approach anxiety, combined with a lack of experience interacting with girls. I’ve never known him to have female friends, and he seems to stay away from girls as a whole. It seems like a combination of shyness and disinterest in girls his own age. I have four female roommates his age and I can say without a doubt that he wouldn’t be interested in any of them.
Again, I’m totally speculating but it might be less disinterest and more the shyness and associated fear and anxiety. If someone were commenting on me in college, they’d probably say he just seems disinterested in girls when the reality was I was just to anxious to do anything. Any perceived reward was outweighed by the imagined risk.
Its up to you really….I’m just suggesting you might want to probe further with a clear intent you are not looking to judge him, ridicule him, or embarass him, but that you know stuff that might help him to get where he wants to be if in fact he isn’t where he wants to be now. Its hard though, I”m in a similar position with my sister. She is a bit hard-headed though so she often wants to argue with me instead of listen. Not unlike some commenters. LOL
@Anacaona how far along?
According to the net is five weeks. I don’t feel pregnant except for some morning sickness, that is not in the morning. I guess I need more time.
No, it won’t. I remember how I was starting to feel in my junior and senior year of college at 20-21. I can’t even fathom what 28 would have been like. You show me a guy who is a virgin at 28, 30, 35, and I’ll show you a guy who is seriously mentally fucked up. The virgin until marriage thing only really works when you have a religious couple getting married at 19, 20, 21, 22.
Actually I didn’t met many good guys but they all said that the sex drive does gets easier to handle with age, whatever that means.
Now some cultures, religions, and upbringings might be able to teach a woman not to listen to this base drive.
I actually think is the other way around and cultures can make women to demand more sexually experienced guy because they can’t relate to a man unless they get something out of him, either money, status or an orgasm. Hope for example had the experience of her husband not being the perfect lover the first time and she was okay with working around, my husband actually didn’t had full intercourse with me the first time and I was willing, because I wasn’t clearly ready, lets say that I was expecting the whole thing to be more painful than it actually was, again I like my husband the whole package of him and I wanted to have sex with HIM and I had to wait six more months for the next trip to be able to do the did and of course so did he. Now in any other environment the women would had not give this guys a second chance, well their loss. Still I don’t know any woman unless she is really experienced and only in it for the sex, that would had discarded a guy if he wasn’t good to go the first time, YMMV.
Apparently, he found some way to totally ignore his drive for sex if it wasn’t with a girl who met relationship standards.
I will say that my little brother is really attractive (at 6’2” when the average Dominican man is 5’5″ add that some smartness and he was quite successful or so I heard I really don’t see it, I guess I’m not supposed to) and he had a natural dislike for sluts. He had plenty of those, throwing themselves at him and he wouldn’t touch them with a ten foot pole. In fact he actually was sick of one that had a boyfriend and when she pretty much told him straight to fuck her he set a place called her boyfriend and played like he was just playing cupid for her, of course the boyfriend though it was just a surprise and she managed to not show any signs of her waiting for another man. She got shit scared, got the message clear and left him alone for good I think she stopped talking to him altogether. I do think some men can’t stick their dicks in certain class of women no matter what.
Thanks, Mike C. I’ll definitely think about it.
Interestingly, I made some comment today about girls who “fall for assholes,” and he said “it’s because they have confidence, ever think of that?” I think he’s starting to get it, just has to put it into practice.
Actually I didn’t met many good guys but they all said that the sex drive does gets easier to handle with age, whatever that means.
Well….sex drive being easier to handle is a separate issue from being a virgin. What it means is simply on day to day basis less of your time, mental energy, focus, mental efforts are oriented around getting laid. At 38, I can notice a tremendous difference from say 25-26, but I also live chronically sleep deprived now so that could play a role in the decrease as well beyond just age. But that is different from being a virgin. I can’t even conceive being a virgin at 38. I’d bet most 30+ virgins have suicidal thoughts. I suspect this is another of those things women simply cannot grok.
@Badger
They didn’t, it was just one comment in a long thread. They do now. The truth is, your comment about being filled with rage has haunted me for three weeks. Rage has no place here. I’m sorry, but I can’t do it. I don’t want to provide a platform for male rage. You can vent at the Spearhead, or Darlock’s. Your rage robs me of my sleep at night. That’s not a hyperbolic statement, it’s the truth. My inability to deal with male rage online destroyed my holidays with my family. Consider that my shortcoming if you like. I don’t want to write a blog that attracts enraged people, and I certainly don’t want to be the cause of making people feel enraged. It makes me very sad, and it also frightens me.
I do not object to a bit of narcissism here and there, being a prime example of it myself. Here is the comment I was referring to:
In particular, I am incredibly disappointed and frustrated at the idea that you would push for sex and assume women are sluts. If that’s your plan, why even be a part of this community? Do you think that women readers welcome this “epiphany?” I guess you must agree, that was 1/29, the last day you commented here.
I think that’s a gross mischaracterization of what has been going on here. I do not believe I have accused men of aiming out of their league. I have written numerous posts on women liking jerks and men with Dark Triad traits. I also suggested, based on considerable academic research, that certain women are more attracted to those traits than others. The men have been extremely invested in disputing that. Mike C’s experience as a bouncer trumps a study of 2,000 women in their 20s. I welcome personal anecdotes, but this goes much farther: “Your study is BS, everyone knows women lie in studies, a real man is telling you how it is, you need to listen.” I don’t recall anyone saying to any man that their experience doesn’t matter, in fact several women on the threads have now devoted many hours to offering to support to men who have recently swallowed the red pill and are struggling.
Are you accusing me of being hostile to hostile males? Or hostile to enraged men? Because I do not believe that my views can be characterized as male-hostile by any but the most extreme MRAs.
In fact, I am very concerned that Anacaona sees HUS as going down the tubes. The loss of her respect is a serious blow, and as it was public it now provides fodder for you and undoubtedly others. (I don’t know who the other female is.)
Because we share readers and they keep saying very objectionable things about women? Seriously, I do wish I’d ignored Darlock. It was folly to think I could engage his readers in any kind of fair discussion. I didn’t realize at that point how extreme his followers were. I felt compelled to speak out against Rollo, who clearly despises women, but you’re right. It wasn’t worth it.
Of course, it’s hard to avoid the hardcore, hostile men who sometimes comment at HUS.
Oh, I am definitely fighting back against the Dark Side. I always have, actually. My first post that caught the manosphere’s attention was critical of Roissy and Roosh. It’s the response that has changed. I’ve seen the accusations flying that I “stole” the 80/20 concept from the Roissysphere when I shared it with Kate Bolick. No good deed goes unpunished, you know.
Nice parting shot. As I said, I haven’t changed.
Well….sex drive being easier to handle is a separate issue from being a virgin.
At the risk of sound generalizing how many male virgins by choice do you know? There is plenty of men that renounce to this out of personal philosophy or religious. not all of them successful of course but many of them do exist. I knew a couple of theology class and not only catholic priests I had a few Buddhist and one that practiced some other asian philosophy.
@Munson
Wow, that’s some black humor. I tip my hat to you.
In fact, I am very concerned that Anacaona sees HUS as going down the tubes. The loss of her respect is a serious blow, and as it was public it now provides fodder for you and undoubtedly others. (I don’t know who the other female is.)
Oh my. If I had a time machine I will stop myself from posting that. I just didn’t wanted to be in a secret. You haven’t lost my respect Susan I still respect you. My perception of the state of the blog now has nothing to do with you, but with the blog’s mission and the way it was when I first arrived around a year more or less and the way it had changed. Again maybe all this is good, like birthing pains for a new incarnation, but there is change there is not doubt about it.
Anacaona,
), and I was surprised at how much more sexually forward he had become. He’d dated a few girls since we’d broken up, and I suspect they were much less physically conservative than I’d been. I think in spite of his beliefs, he was very motivated by sex, something I’ve come to believe is very normal.
My ex BF from high school is actually a virgin by choice, very religious. Three years ago I had a short fling with him 2.5 years after we broke up (terrible idea at the time, I know
I’ve heard about all kinds of weird sexual behavior in the church setting, including in families I’ve personally known growing up. I suspect repressed sexuality, accompanied by a culture that shames people for their sexual desires, is not particularly healthy, at least for most people.
I’ve heard about all kinds of weird sexual behavior in the church setting, including in families I’ve personally known growing up. I suspect repressed sexuality, accompanied by a culture that shames people for their sexual desires, is not particularly healthy, at least for most people.
I don’t considered it repressed sexuality more like rechannelized sexuality. Repressed sexuality will imply, IMO, denying the feelings or consider them dirty. I never got that, sexuality was consider a beautiful part of the human experience a gift from God. But a gift that was ideally enjoyed after interchanged the wedding vows with our eternal mate or if you wanted to be a nun or a priest offered to God the same way you give up money or certain foods out of faith. YMMV of course I agree that there are people that have sex for all the wrong reasons and there are people that don’t have sex for all the wrong reasons too.
@Olive
Thank you. I hope you know that I value your input and viewpoint, even if we do not always agree. And you’re clearly a fan favorite! I appreciate your contributions here very much.
Delurking to say hearty congratulations to Anacaona!
Thanks Deti.
That breaks my heart. That’s four months, more than one guy a week. There is no way that girl is OK.
He said the record was 3 in a weekend. I couldn’t even believe it.
Yeah I dunno Susan. It’s blatantly obvious to me these girls are looking for validation, and “finding” it in sex (remember my friend who slept with Tucker Max…). They are mixed up and confused, and they don’t know what makes them attractive.
The Sexual Revolution made things worse for women, regardless of what feminists want us to think.
P.S. I do want to echo Anacaona’s sentiments in 634. And of course I’m not going anywhere (lest you bring back Doug
)!
@Mike C
Agreed. But the truths that Mystery set down in writing have been far exceeded in the manosphere. “Game” has morphed considerably, as it has been adapted and reported on by hundreds of strangers on the internet.
I’m on board with all the evo psych stuff, as my posts demonstrate: female hypergamy, the female preference for social dominance over good character, and the rewarding of arrogant behavior.
Do I think that women who work as strippers or try to take bouncers home are the same as women who go to book readings? No.
I don’t think that’s right. I haven’t counted, but on the Defining Sexy thread, I think there were as many men who stated that less is more and slutty = gross as there were who shared your view. The difference is, those men stated their opinion once and bowed out. The most vociferous men dominate the thread, but if every man gets one vote, the picture looks very different.
That’s not true at all. I seek balance, and I honestly feel that it’s been lacking. I believe that men have a variety of experiences and views, as do women. It’s really not a yes or no question. Again, my view of human experience is that is lies on a spectrum.
I feel certain that many women will come to this realization in the next 20 years. Marriage is going to be like a game of Musical Chairs. The women left standing are going to be angry, and they’re going to look for someone to blame.
Yes, there is. HUS got successful.
@Jackie
PS: What are you giving up for Lent? I still haven’t decided!
My WP blog.
@Susan
That means I’ll be away for forty days and forty nights (and maybe some of Easter Octave as well), but please don’t think I’ve abandoned you! I’ll be back.
@Anacaona
That’s wonderful news! Prayers for you and your growing family!
Thanks Bellita.
Agreed. But the truths that Mystery set down in writing have been far exceeded in the manosphere. “Game” has morphed considerably, as it has been adapted and reported on by hundreds of strangers on the internet.
I’m on board with all the evo psych stuff, as my posts demonstrate: female hypergamy, the female preference for social dominance over good character, and the rewarding of arrogant behavior.
Do I think that women who work as strippers or try to take bouncers home are the same as women who go to book readings? No.
Periodically, there will be a comment here that I think strikes new ground and/or expands a line of thought but garners little to no discussion. Very often, some of the best and most thought-provoking comments come from Wudang.
Not too long ago, he had a comment with a link that explained the breakdown of women into high dominance, mid dominance, and low dominance in terms of what they respond to. If you did not read that link in that comment, I would encourage you to do so prior to reading the rest of my comment.
I personally think this is the most accurate way of categorizing. Really, the point of contention is not that ALL women are like X, or that NAWALT, but what that mix really is today amongst say 20-35/40 year old women. What percentage of women require high dominance versus middle versus low. My sense is you think the high dominance category are the outliers with the bulk in the middle and low. My sense is most guys out there approaching, trying to set up dates/get togethers and progressions to either some type of physical involvement and/or relationship think the mix is quite different with many/most women only responding to high dominance. I would also add that although the high dominance women will ONLY respond to very dominant/alpha men, I believe many of the low dominance women will also respond to dominance. Those are the “mistakes” that “good girls” make with “assholes”. Many/most girls at a book reading are not going home with bouncers at bars, but neither is a mutually exclusive set.
In any case, we’ve reached the point where it is pointless for either side to try and persuade the other side of their position. It is also pointless for guys to come to HUS and bitch about what women are doing out there. I agree wholeheartedly with that. This simply is not the place for that. This shouldn’t be a place for guys to complain about how “fucked up women are”. Do that somewhere else. That said, I think you should recuse yourself from any other posts offering advice to men. By doing that, you open up the can of worms where male commenters will respond because he doesn’t think the advice applies to the women he is encountering day to day in the real world.
I don’t think that’s right. I haven’t counted, but on the Defining Sexy thread, I think there were as many men who stated that less is more and slutty = gross as there were who shared your view. The difference is, those men stated their opinion once and bowed out. The most vociferous men dominate the thread, but if every man gets one vote, the picture looks very different.
I suppose we could go back and count, but my recollection is the slutty=gross men were a minority. Jesus Mahoney, Escoffier, maybe 1 or 2 more, I can’t quite remember exactly.
In any case, the bottom line is it is increasingly clear that male commentary of a certain type (criticism) is getting more unwelcome in favor of a more “balanced” view. That’s OK. Nothing wrong with that. This is your online home. Everyone else is a guest. I wouldn’t go to a PETA meeting and expect a warm welcome for extolling the virtues of eating meat. To the extent you are advising women to make better decisions that is a noble endeavor. Just my opinion, but I’d stay away from posts/comments that pick fights with highly respected male bloggers advocating the male POV. That simply is asking for the type of comments you are explicitly saying you do NOT want here. But if you whip out your dick to joust with Rollo, you can’t be surprised when you get a ton of hardline pushback on that post such as in the Defining Sexy post.
I’ll close this comment with once again stressing that overall I respect and admire what you are doing here. Reasonable people can disagree on certain points. I think it is critical for the male readers to understand you are not writing for men. You are writing for women to help them get boyfriends and/or marriages. Men who have issues to work through and or learn to be more successful either short-term or long-term need to accomplish that elsewhere.
@Bellita
We will miss you very much! I wish you a rewarding spiritual journey.
“Your rage robs me of my sleep at night. That’s not a hyperbolic statement, it’s the truth. My inability to deal with male rage online destroyed my holidays with my family. Consider that my shortcoming if you like. I don’t want to write a blog that attracts enraged people, and I certainly don’t want to be the cause of making people feel enraged. It makes me very sad, and it also frightens me.”
Well, if its any consolation, you’re not the only one losing sleep over the fate of this blog. Here I’d determined to enjoy the internet-free life I’ve built over these last few months, and, well, I’ve enjoyed that life, but thanks to you and your travails I haven’t been able to keep it internet-free.
I’m sorry to hear of your ruined holiday.
To fight aloud, is very brave—
But gallanter, I know
Who charge within the bosom
The Cavalry of Woe—
Who win, and nations do not see—
Who fall—and none observe—
Whose dying eyes, no Country
Regards with patriot love—
We trust, in plumed procession
For such, the Angels go—
Rank after Rank, with even feet—
And Uniforms of Snow.
I’m not much for imaginary angels – I can name mine. They’re always there to welcome me once that Cavalry has been defeated. Hope you know where to find yours – can’t imagine you do not.
and…
One for Kate, and her legions:
A wounded deer leaps highest,
I’ve heard the hunter tell;
‘T is but the ecstasy of death,
And then the brake is still.
The smitten rock that gushes,
The trampled steel that springs;
A cheek is always redder
Just where the hectic stings!
Mirth is the mail of anguish,
In which it cautions arm,
Lest anybody spy the blood
And “You’re hurt” exclaim!
@Desiderius
Thank you, poetry is balm for the soul. I confess I am selfishly and not so secretly pleased that you have come back online.
@Mike C
I wrote a long comment in reply to yours, but my laptop hiccuped and it’s gone. I’ll take that as a sign it’s best to keep this short. Thank you for your honest feedback and your support of my mission here. I believe the question of whether women want too much dominance or men offer too little is one of many that we will never answer here. Even if we could, it’s just looking in the rearview mirror. Ultimately, those wanting a life partner only need to find one person, and with luck and determination will conquer the SMP and stay out of their own way long enough to do so.
I think that this blog is one of the most constructive sites when it comes to relations between men and women. The tone of the blog has changed after “Dalrockgate”. Something happened when two of the most constructive and moderate bloggers turned into fight. It is very unfortunate and sad, but maybe inevitable.
I understand that Susan is reluctant to let her blog get drowned in male bitterness. And she shouldn´t because she has an important message to women, and it is important that this blog does not turn into another MRA-forum, because then the message from Susan to young women won’t get through.
However, after 50 years of feminism, men are bitter and men distrust women. That is a reality you as women have to live with. Its your own feminist sisters who have made up that situation and many non-feminist women has contributed by going passively along with feminism.
Therefore, although the bitterness is not allowed on this blog, you have to take it into account, and you have to find a way of neutralizing it.
It is women and feminism that have instigated this bitterness in men, and therefore it is women who bear the responsibility to help men overcome their bitterness. Of course you can choose not to, thinking that bitter men have to take care of them-selves. That is their fate. But the bitterness that women has caused in men will backfire and is backfiring now and for your own sake you are obliged to help men overcome their bitterness and resentment.
Women are the first sex. You are the sex that bears the children and thereby the backbone of society. In the feminist view this has given you certain rights. And maybe it does. However, I think that it also give women certain special obligations that men do not have, towards their children and toward society and towards men. Women have not succeeded to live up to these obligations for the last 50 years as your minds has been poisoned by feminist ideology.
Do I think that men do not have obligations? No, of course we have. But men are disposable and men are redundant and we are becoming more and more redundant. And unfortunately many feminists and other women are celebrating men’s redundancy. But it is not easy for you to tell men one day that we are redundant (and evil) and then put obligations upon us the next day. If we you don’t need us we have no obligations and if you want us to take responsibility you have to make us believe that you need us.
I fully understand that women are just as insecure as men in this whole new scenario that has evolved since the pill, and I understand that many men treat women badly. So I fully understand that women may feel bitter and resentful towards men.
Therefore, I can also understand why many of you women have bolstered your own faltering self-confidence by convincing yourself that you can manage without a man in your life and that men are more evil than women. But this is just narcissistic and it damages your own interest in the long run.
The relation between mother and child is the central relation in society. If it was not for this relation, we did not need a society at all. Society is build around women’s need for help in childrearing. Men’s role in society is marginal although it used to look very central. Men’s importance has traditionally been inflated by patriarchy, and the reason for this is that if you make a person believe he is central he will be more useful. By taking a step back and let men get the status, the medals and the honour, women were able to take advantage of men’s labour. Women always knew that no one could replace them as mothers and that they were central. Because of this knowledge of their own worth they could let men believe that men were central. Status, honour and medals are very cheap.
Women’s situation became worse because of the extreme growth of the population in the world deflating the value of the traditional labour for woman: motherhood. Up until then there had always been to few women to satisfy society’s need for children, but now there are too many. Suddenly women got a glimpse of what it meant to be a man, to be unnecessary. And women were scared to death.
In panic women tried to mimic men. I believe that many women thought that if man could get importance and status by working and getting career it should also be possible for women. Women began to imitate men. And women have succeeded, as you all know. Thereby women has diminished their feeling of redundancy although it’s still there causing dumbfounded women as Kate Bolick to brag about that she doesn’t really need a man (In fact I think she said the opposite, but she didn’t dare to say it straight out an she then let herself get abused by feminists who did not want men and other women to hear what she said).
It is a very poor strategy for people to bolster their own feelings of inferiority and redundancy by devaluing the worth of other people. And when women are seeking self-comfort in making men look more redundant, more evil and less human than them-selves, it is outright dangerous. And it will backfire.
Redundant men will become dangerous men. This is not because of any fault in men’s character as we se more and more redundant women becoming dangerous too. Redundancy is turning humans into dangerous creatures regardless of sex because you get pride and dignity by being needed by others. The only reason that we do not see as many women as men falling into this is that very few women experience the abyss of redundancy that men experience and that most men fear more than death. After all women are free to have children if they want – and when women got the feeling of redundancy you were allowed to take over the part of society formerly dominated by men.
But your actions as women has put society into a situation where maybe most men are redundant or at least we feel redundant – and many women do their best to increase this feeling in men because it diminish women’s own anxiety and self-doubt.
My wife has convinced me that I am important to her. I know that I helped many people in my work and that many are thankful. I personally do not feel redundant, but I sincerely believe that if half of all men should be killed, most women should not notice if they were not personally affected or if it were not for the odour. Some women should even be relieved.
Of course I may be wrong in this, but feminists and the lack of women’s opposition against feminism has planted this belief in me an in many other males. And it is up to women to persuade men that this feeling is wrong.
As mothers women has always been the backbone of society and they had a lot of power. In fact they had the real power. If we compare to modern corporations we could say that the woman were the chairman of the board, and the man was the executive director. The long-term goal of female sexuality was the guiding principle governing society and relationship between men and women.
Now women are increasingly becoming the executive leaders of society but I think that women have not taken on the responsibilities and the obligations that followed by being both chairman of the boards and executive. In those positions you are not allowed to just think of yourself. You have the obligation to think of the whole of society and how you will get the whole society to thrive.
I have not seen any sign anywhere that woman leaders or women in general have reached this point of recognition. Women still just talk of women’s rights and not on women’s obligations and woman still think that men leaders just serve men’s interest although in fact every legislation feminists have proposed have been made into law.
But women, you need to see that the society you are creating need places for men to thrive, places for men to gain dignity and respect. You have to find roles for men in the life of women and children in which men can thrive. And it is your obligation to make men feel secure in this role.
Unfortunately I believe that women will never come to recognize your special obligations and men will sink into more and more redundancy and behave more an more badly until the day when most women will decide not to give birth to male children and to conceive by insemination.
This society may be the dream for many women, and as a man I will happily resign. If women can’t or won’t construct a society in which there is place for men, men ought not to exist. That is OK. But you yourselves are no longer human beings.
The traditional answer from women is that men’s fate is our own responsibility. We just need to man up. But we can’t, as there are no places for us to fill. You may wish us to be responsible fathers, but then you should make it virtually impossible for women to get a divorce from a responsible father. And you have done quite the opposite and many of you celebrate it as your greatest victory as women.
Please note that I am not talking about men’s right as fathers, because I don’t give a damned for rights. I talk about the responsibility of women to engage men as responsible fathers, to stay with the men that are responsible although they may have other faults. This is an obligation that a woman has not only to the man that father her child, but also to society as a whole and not the least to her daughters. Every woman taking out divorce from a responsible father is the future generations of women to single motherhood and poverty.
I feel that Susan is one of the all to few females who is recognizing that something is very wrong and that she is trying to counteract this. Susan, I wish you good luck. You may be the one turning the tide. And as I am sure you know yourself: It is only women who can change the way things are going. Men are just too unimportant and too redundant.
@christiankp
Thank you. The shift was occurring before that, but Dalrockgate brought the “war on HUS” out into the open. In truth, several bloggers in the manosphere had been agitating for the destruction of this blog since the day the Atlantic article came out mid-October. (I advise anyone to think very carefully before creating a Google Alert for their own name.) The manosphere has been very good to me overall, and many of those bloggers still do appreciate my work here. While I am now persona non grata in some circles, it will not change my mission here, which is actually to make the SMP a better place for both men and women.
I endorse this view. I have obviously failed to find that sweet spot at this point. Of course, I come with my own biases as a woman, a wife, and a mother. (Note to lurkers: This is not a claim that I play for Team Woman, it is a biological statement.) I will not stop trying. That is really all I can promise. Whether I can make a difference remains to be seen.
Amen.
Yes, I do know that. Your entire comment on the impact of feminism on men is the best I’ve ever seen. Thank you so much for writing it.
Olive – I think it is quite telling your brother said “that would be mean” because I can relate to thinking exactly that when I was his age. I had been trained that any sort of sex preceding a relationship was basically sexual assault. So, I wound up turning down women that really were throwing themselves at me. It took a few years of drinking to deactivate that false belief. That’s not the optimal way of doing so, but it does work. I think your brother will do just fine, so long as he mixes with women regularly. Some quality girl will pick him off for sure.
As to the meta-topic. Yes, I see HUS as advice for women and am obviously on board with it’s mission. I view men like Mike and myself sort of as an male-POV advisory council to Sue and the other elder women, like Ana, J, Hope, Stingray, etc. We are here to give you that un-PC information that your husbands either won’t tell you, or only have sneaking supicious of. It’s up to you to distill that information and serve it up to the younger female generation. And it’s not a one-way thing, as I aim to understand the female perspective myself.
It’s gratifying to have young unmarried women of Olive’s empathic caliber here, who are willing to listen men directly. It gives me hope for the future. Still, that’s just icing on the HUS cake.
It’s interesting to see men like Ted come for help, but I would warn them that their interests are best served by immersing themselves in the company of men who ARE what they want to be.
I think engaging in fights with the harsher voices of the manosphere itself is more or less pointless.
“Please, let me be clear. I am not blaming video games for the downfall of the human race. For the VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE, video games are fun and harmless and maybe beneficial. If you get good grades, you do not have a problem. If you have good relationships with the opposite gender, you do not have a problem. If you do well at your job, you do not have a problem. Please enjoy your games.”
Ok. Thanks for the clarification. But I still doubt most non-gamers can see the big picture. That videogaming, smoking pot all day and not taking responsibility of anything is an awesome lifestyle and super-fun as is. Add sex in the equation, great! Even better.
You can ruin your life with anything. Way, way, way more people have been destroyed in pursuit of good relationships and love than playing videogames. Even considering sexual interaction, the care-free lifestyle can be more fulfilling and entertaining than what we consider “those kids are supposed to do”.
If we did not do such an awesome job with loser-shaming and constantly reminding everyone how pathetic those hikkys are, I doubt the real world would be able to compete with the virtual one. Just fun and good times everyday after you get over the fact that “normal” people think you are weird and expect shit from you. There have always been hermits. They are so because they find solitude less bad than the alternative.
@Anacaona C
Congratulations on such happy news!
So thrilled for you, Ana!
PS: Renesmee?
@Bellita
I, too, am thinking of giving up internet (just email, etc, necessary for business) for Lent. This may not make sense, but part of me is trepidatious (no netflix? no HUS?
), but another part of me is almost looking forward to having the kind of quiet and stillness in my life, to see where I am led.
(It’s really easy for me to have time taken up online– email, skype, IM, message boards, music, movies. Lotsa good things, but easy to get immersed , y’know?)
Much peace to you, Bellita!
” I talk about the responsibility of women to engage men as responsible fathers, to stay with the men that are responsible although they may have other faults. This is an obligation that a woman has not only to the man that father her child, but also to society as a whole and not the least to her daughters. ”
Imagine how much better society would be if this were to happen.
@Jesus M (#606)
Hi JM,
I should have withdrawn that question, as it was pointed and, in putting another person “on the spot,” it was unnecessary. (And a charm school fail, too.)
I am probably overly sensitive: Being judged as good/bad in the professional and personal is something I am working on at the moment. (Translation: Recovering perfectionist)
Please accept my sincerest apologies and kindest regards–
Jackie-I’m exactly the same. It can be triggering for me when someone labels me bad or is critical in some way.
Sensitivity can be a good thing though.
Being able to feel other people’s pain, being nice to those that really need it, and being creative.
Susan
I have a great deal of respect for this blog because you are an incredibly generous host who allows the voicing of some pretty raw stuff while obviously trying to hear what is underneath the ranting. And your views have evolved thru time and you do not try to hide it. IMHO, this puts you in the extreme-elite level of blog excellence for the entire Universe.
A very difficult thing for many women to grok about guys is that guys are often feeling things very intensely and struggle for ways to express it that are actually safe. Even, or especioally, when they seem shut-down. Because, trust me on this, if guys just gushed it all out like females do the result would NOT be safe for anybody.
A great trick that Roissy used from the beginning was to drop huge hints everywhere that he was more a court jester than a Machivellian Dark Lord. Commenters generally got that they had permission to exaggerate every dimension of whatever topic. Believe it or not, in guyland this often expands everybodys comfort zone. The essential, painful truths often need a lot of dilution with obvious hyperbole to be safely dispensed.
Imagine a Saloon in the Olde West where everybody is drunk and carrying loaded pistols. A perfectly reasonable way to communicate in that environment would be to tell a story that was 1. Funny, 2. Transparently exagerated, 3. Contained a truth that was not a direct threat to anyone present – or visibly present..
Jackie,
No apology necessary. I think my views have been mischaracterized. Or at least misunderstood by Olive. I don’t want to condemn anybody. But I do think it’s fair to say that as a general rule, promiscuous women and women who have a habit of being attracted to bad people are poor relationship prospects.
Olive thinks this is unfair, which is her right. But I don’t see how it’s any different than you or Warm Women backing away from a guy who’s asking about your sexual history on a first date. Avoiding relationships with promiscuous women and women who attracted to men of poor character seems like sound strategy to me.
Rum,
Thanks for your comment! It definitely helps shed light on some of the male perspectives, and it also helps clarify the difficulties men face when communicating about intensely emotional subjects.
As women, I think our gut reaction is to take things personally. You could see it in the Defining Sexy thread, which almost immediately became about Emma Watson, the person. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, it’s just how we communicate, and it’s why we’re so indirect with each other. I think a lot of this breaks down to a gap in male-female communication, and you do a very good job of summarizing the male communication style to which the vast majority of women cannot relate.
Jesus Mahoney
How would you define a man of poor character?
For the female lurkers, I once found this link at the age of 25 when I just learning about healthy relationships and how good men behave(My house taught me the opposite, ha).
The author is a bit of a religious extremist, but he makes good points overall. I remember deti seemed to agree with some stuff that struck out to me as important.
http://www.gillistriplett.com/rel101/articles/40things.html
JM,
It’s not that I think it’s unfair, it’s that I think it’s simplistic. I was thinking about this more yesterday, and I realized why it bugs me. The implication is that the women you’ve characterized as “decent” and “good” then get into a comfortable space in which they think they know exactly how to have a healthy relationship, and that’s a dangerous space to be in, because it leaves no room for improvement.
Once again, I’ll use myself as an example. You’ll see various men in this thread praising me for understanding the male point of view, implying that I’m a “decent” woman. This is dangerous for me, from a personal standpoint, because it places me in a category in which I am “better” than other women. It sets me up for unhealthy competition (and back when I was 16 or 17, I was already writing about my tendency to compete in a way that drove others away, and that it wasn’t good for me).
This is no one’s intent, of course. But women constantly want to know where they stand with men, and constant praise can sometimes reinforce bad behaviors (and all “decent” women have bad behaviors, as no one is perfect). It’s funny, a few months ago Malia came around getting on my case about this, and while I didn’t appreciate her tone, I do think she hit on something important: there’s a lot of “well I’m not like that” around here, which smacks of intrasexual competition. And as I despise intrasexual competition, I have to give her credit for pointing out something we don’t often recognize: a non-slut does not always make a good relationship prospect, and vice versa. Mike C said it best:
In other words, it’s about an attitude that I’m still learning to acquire.
@Jackie
I can’t cut Internet time completely because of my work, but I will be cutting down on how much time I spend online. I’m already looking forward to it . . . which seems wrong to say about something that’s supposed to be penitential.
What I’m not looking forward to, however, is forty days of no chocolate. I hope the souls in purgatory appreciate this.
I don’t feel pregnant except for some morning sickness, that is not in the morning. I guess I need more time.
Morning sickness doesn’t necessarily strike only in the morning, so that’s normal. People tend to equate having a lot of morning sickness with having a healthy pregnancy. It’s a half-truth. Yes, pregnancy hormones can cause morning sickness, but not everyone is sensitive to them.
Thank you Susan. Your last words just made me very proud.
Many if the thoughts I wrote are taken from British sociologist Geoff Dench. I recommend that you read his book “Transforming men.”
I shall briefly try to explain some of his ideas. It is vitally important for humans to be needed by others. If you are not needed you will vanish. That’s true for both men and women. However, a man’s position is much more fragile than a woman. Basically women can just f*ck around and get a child, and then they will have dependants. They will also be a part of a sisterhood helping each other.
If women decides that they do not need men in the dependency chain because they can manage for themselves, they are in fact deeming the men to redundancy and to vanish slowly, because being outside the dependency chains will make you careless of yourself and others. And both men and women will experience this lack of care and responsibility when they are redundant (I guess that girls acting like sluts are doing it from the same feeling of redundancy as men acting like studs). It has nothing to do with an inborn male inferiority. It just that life is much harsher to men than to women.
Men have no way of forcing themselves into the dependency chain going from child to mother to father, because the role of the mother in the dependency chain is biological, while the role of the father is social. A woman has the obligation to invite a man into this dependency chain. This is an obligation that she has, not primarily to the man that she invites, but to society because it is by letting men into the dependency chain that women turn med into productive and useful members in society. If women keep men out of the chain they will just be a burden to society.
I know that this may be a hard burden for women to bear, that they should not be allowed to go for themselves, and that they are obliged to be dependent on a man so that he can get the chance of becoming useful. But that is a point modern women have misunderstood. Being central to society does not come with a lot of rights but a lot of obligations and responsibilities. Power is not compatible with personal freedom and hedonism. That is abuse of power. Power is self-sacrifice and taking responsibility for others.
So all these women that are celebrating themselves as free and independent have missed to meet their obligation to society: inviting a man into the dependency chain and thereby making him useful to society. Although it may be a burden to women to do this, it has nothing to do with male oppression or subjugation of women. It’s just that a society with too many superfluous men will eventually implode, and that cannot be in the best interest of women.
And I think that the refusal of women to invite men into the dependency chain is already backfiring as those very women who took the role of breadwinner away from men and who flooded the labour force thereby diminishing men’s salary are now seeing their own son’s t deteriorate and as a result of this they se the world of their daughters become harsher and harsher.
Of course I hear the protest of women. Why should we let ourselves to be dependent of men that can’t be trusted? It is better for us to be dependent on welfare than on a male that may leave us and abuse us. I understand this, but the problem is that when enough men are left out of the dependency chains production will diminish and welfare will implode, because welfare basically rely on the surplus production of men caught up in dependency chains. I think that what we are seeing now is the implosion of welfare because of the diminished production of men and the burden of unproductive men on society.
I also think that women should be aware that the marginal value to society of men’s work is greater than the marginal value of women’s. I know this is unfair but I will show you. A woman who is not working is a burden to society. Lets say that she costs society $15000. If she started to work the work she does will have a certain value to society (lets say $20000), and thereby she will increase wealth in society. She might also earn more money (lets say $2000) by working than being on welfare, so her wealth and the wealth of the collective of women are increased by $2000 plus some of the value of her production.
But what would happen if she were a man. For the sake of simplicity, lets say that all values are the same. The cost of an unproductive man is $15000. These resources are taken from society’s general pool of welfare, so they are channelled away from women to men. By getting into work these money can be rechanneled back to women and children. Of course even a part of the value of his production will increase the wealth of women and children. And by paying taxes the man will also increase the resources in the welfare system primarily favouring women and children.
The conclusion is that an unproductive woman going into work will increase the net wealth for women very marginally (in this example $2000 + some of the value of what she produced), but an unproductive man going into work will increase the wealth of women much more ($15000 + some of the value of what he produce + the value of the taxes + the value he hands over to his family as a breadwinner).
I agree with feminists that men have always been privileged in the labour market, but I am firmly convinced that women have every reason to accept this. When women force men out of work by affirmative action they are betraying themselves, because women can never create so much wealth for themselves by working themselves as by letting men work.
Every time a woman is taking a man’s place in the work force she is not only and ultimately defeating him. She is also contributing to making life worse for the woman who could have relied on his resources and work in raising her children. And eventually this could be herself. So ultimately it will be women who are defeating themselves
So by not trusting men and not letting men into the dependency chains and taking men’s place in the work force women are making life worse for themselves, by increasing their own workload and by decreasing the wealth in society. Paradoxically men will not suffer very much economically, because not having any woman or children being dependent on us, we do not need very much money to live.
How should men react to this? I think that MRA’s often are making a good analysis of what is wrong, but I think they are doing wrong by whining just as feminist has always done. (And by the way I think that you women should know that the MRA’s are the men to be trusted and the men you should love. A MRA man may say some harsh truths to you and in his anger and his grief you may find that he is unjust, BUT the MRA is not flattering you to get in your pants. That is what many feminist men are doing and succeeding with).
As a man I am proud. I find that what men have done in the family, in the workforce and in society is done on a commission that we have gained from women. If we are not trusted to take on these responsibilities we should happily resign leaving these tasks to women to perform.
And when we have done that we should humbly ask women: where is our place in your lives, in families and in society? Do you need us? Du you trust us? Without your trust we can do nothing.
Some men may think that this is a mangina way of handling the problem, leaving over our roles to women. But I think it is not. I think it is putting women against the wall and making them responsible for the future of society.
Morning sickness doesn’t necessarily strike only in the morning, so that’s normal. People tend to equate having a lot of morning sickness with having a healthy pregnancy. It’s a half-truth. Yes, pregnancy hormones can cause morning sickness, but not everyone is sensitive to them.
My mom told me that she never vomited and that she just had a little nausea after all that all she did was sleep a lot and eat so it might be one of those things. I know is crazy but I kind of want to feel worse and vomit. Is kind of like “were is my pregnancy experience go?” I want to the whole thing” Of course I also wanted acne in HS and PMS so is just my own “I want to be a normal woman” stupidity talking. I’m sure the moment I start to feel pregnant I will complain about it too.
@Mike C.,
“This is fascinating to me because it does show there are some guys that if they cannot get a Ladder 1 girl at that moment in time, then they don’t even want a Ladder 2 girl either. I’ll admit that I cannot relate to this in any way. Apparently, he found some way to totally ignore his drive for sex if it wasn’t with a girl who met relationship standards.”
I’ll give it a try, since I’ve seen stuff like this, which seems to be more common in STEM guys (heck, I’ve lived it). Some STEM guys will have an idealized, in a way overly romantic, view of his “better half”. That being the case, he will only want a “Ladder 1 girl”, to be his one and only soulmate. The sex drive is still there, but sublimated for that one and only one person, with the belief that once she’s in his life, it’ll all be good. Going for a “ladder 2 girl” would be to break that idealization.
Now that doesn’t mean that there’s only one person who could be “ladder 1 girl”. In my case, there we a few women I pedestalized in such a fashion, but the key feature is that desire for a “ladder 1 girl” now. This, as you can imagine, is a recipe for oneitis (and a pretty bad case of it, for that matter). The reality is that such a level of pedestalization ultimately backfires…no woman can live up to it. It also has the issue that the “ladder 1 girl” might not long term want you “your” ladder 1 girl.
Olive, I’d recommend trying to puzzle out how idealistic your brother is. Having such an idealized view of women can be recipe for bitterness down the road.
@Anacaona
Congrats!
I know exactly what this looks like. My boyfriend (who was recently still my ex-boyfriend), was a 29 year old virgin by choice. When I discovered this about him, it blew my mind. I couldn’t understand how such an attractive man would willingly avoid women for so long. He told me that he had plenty of women throwing themselves at him, but that he never paid them any attention. I was the first woman he cared enough about to engage with.
The problem with this was that his view of women was, and still is, extremely idealized. It’s a good and bad thing. I like the fact that he places me in an entirely different echelon than the rest of woman kind, but being idealized that way is also scary. I feel the pressure to never disappoint him and to live up to his idea of me.
Relationships require work and no one is perfect. I think that’s why our relationship didn’t work out the first time around. We couldn’t easily navigate what we expected of each other and what each other really was. I’m hoping things will be different this time around.
@ Anacaona
Congratulations on the big news!!! I’m really happy for you.
@Anacanoa, I never get morning sickness vomiting either. I am pretty sure it’s a lucky thing.
I have friends who vomited throughout the entire pregnancy, not just first trimester.
First time pregnancy is exciting… I really can’t wait until the 2nd trimester. That’s when the real fun begins, and you can feel the baby moving and kicking around.
Sending you good thoughts! <3
Thanks ExNewYorker and Sassy
First time pregnancy is exciting… I really can’t wait until the 2nd trimester. That’s when the real fun begins, and you can feel the baby moving and kicking around.
Me neither I’m totally like “GROW!!!” I want to feel it and have my husband feel it too and I want to know how she/he looks like. I’m not patient person. Pregnancy should last a month or so…stupid evolution too slow :p
Sassy,
Wait a sec, are you back with him?
Olive,
Just because a woman avoids promiscuity and falling for assholes, it doesn’t mean she’s a good bet for a relationship. They’re just two criteria for selection. And they work because the actions of women like that reflect an unhealthy view of men and relationships. In other words, a bad attitude.
Warm Woman,
I like the following “things” from the link you gave above:
Honorable men are protectors. They will guard your heart, protect your emotions, defend your honor and stand as champions for your spiritual, mental and physical well-being…
I think he’s a bit too strict. Most men are going to try for sex as soon as they can, unless they’re afraid. I don’t think fear is necessarily a good trait in a man. I’m not saying that you should drop a man who doesn’t try for sex early, but I don’t think you should disqualify those that do, either… as long as they’re respectful when you say “no.”
Ultimately, a man of good character is subjective. But in my mind, he does what he believes is right, even–especially–when it’s hard, and even–espeically–when it’s easy not to. Also, he’s giving and empathetic.
@ Jesus Mahoney
Yes, I am back with him. I’m hoping that it was the right decision. We’ll see how things go.
Sassy,
You obviously still love him. I hope things work out for the best.
Also, I know we’ve debated pretty hard around here the past month or so. Just wanted you to know that despite our very different views, I think you’re “good people.”
Good luck with the new/old relationship.
Warm Woman,
It occurs to me that I gave you a rather lame definition of good character in a man. I started thinking of how I would want my son to be if I had one (or when I have one). At the risk of incurring the wrath of other men here, I’m going to write up a post on Jesus Mahoney’s views on character when I get a chance.
@SW
“I believe that men have a variety of experiences and views, as do women. It’s really not a yes or no question. Again, my view of human experience is that is lies on a spectrum.”
Bravo for making this point. I’ve read many, many discussions @HUS where this observation isn’t made or just dismissed as bunk. It’s true that we all generalize from personal experience to some degree. But… I’ve never understood projecting one’s preferences onto the rest of one’s gender. Bias and self-selection seem to distort what’s “true” or at least what’s really going on IRL. And I’ll admit I’m in a 20% (or smaller) niche of young guys, born at the tail end of Gen X, with similar life experience.
@ Jesus Mahoney
No worries man. I appreciate the fact that you and I are honest with each other. I’d rather people tell me what I need to hear instead of what they think I may want to hear. I’ve always respected the fact that you are frank with me.
One thing I did learn from one of our discussions was that men really don’t appreciate the idea of their women having other men occupy their mental space. I spoke often of the fact that he was jealous of other men and possessive of me. I attributed all the fault to him, but now I know that it was every bit as much my fault. It’s not fair to him if I exacerbate those behaviors by talking about our bringing up other men.
There were two very telling things he said to me once, while we were dating once before.
1. He said that I ruined his fairy tale idea of me when I mentioned my interest in other men to him.
2. He said that he trusted me with his life and finances, but not with men, a few months after the example stated above.
I know I need to foster dedication to him and let him know that I only see him. I know I can’t help the fact that other men approach me or flirt with me in front of him, but I can very much control how I respond to it by letting him know that he is all I care about. “Feeding the bear” wasn’t wise of me to do, in the past, and I have every intention of changing that about myself. I’m woman enough to admit that I was wrong to do so.
Sassy-Good luck with your boyfriend and you.
Jesus Mahoney
That link I gave does have some strict views, and I don’t agree with EVERYTHING….but it still serves as a grain of truth to other women.
“men are going to try for sex as soon as they can, unless they’re afraid. I don’t think fear is necessarily a good trait in a man. I’m not saying that you should drop a man who doesn’t try for sex early, but I don’t think you should disqualify those that do, either… as long as they’re respectful when you say “no.””
Are you saying that it’s still possible for a man to push for sex early and want an LTR with you? In the past, I’ve dropped dates that were talking about sex too much (Example: That actress has nice boobs!) or have tried to act gropey (grabbing breast while giving a good-night kiss). I perceived those behaviors as signs that the men weren’t serious. Perhaps I’m wrong, but it definitely made me feel uncomfortable at the time.
The way how I see it is how a quality man will perceive me if I start talking about my favorite sexual positions or throw myself at him on the first few dates. There’s a chance that he won’t take me seriously. Likewise, I would expect the same demeanor from my dates.
I would imagine if a man is pushing for sex or brings it up, he would have to do it in a way that’s not a turn-off.
I am sorry but now I can´t keep quiet.
Before going to bed I like everyone to consider the centrality of women to society and the unimportance of men are reflected by the fact that men have fought two wars causing millions of men to die without any direct long term effects on society as a whole.
One little book by a woman named Betty Friedan was sufficient to change the life prospects for all human beings to come.
Therefore, women, I tell you: You have very much power and you need to be careful and use this power with responsibility and dignity.
Maggie,
I join Susan in thanking you for your willingness to join the conversation, and especially for braving the fire that your input drew and sticking to at least some of your guns. Often for me disagreement is the sound my mind makes when its changing, and I suspect that I’m not alone, especially among men, so I hope that other commenters will follow your (and Susan’s) example of how to respond constructively to critical feedback.
As for your point, I do see it too, and it may be above 10%. At various times in my life I’ve been playing computer games from 10pm-2am after full days of work and activities, when I probably should have been sleeping/finding my wife, and I now question the wisdom of doing so. While recovering from my transplant, I spent long stretches on games and blogs and it has been a challenge to leave that behind and reestablish a normal life to go with my returned to normal health.
Among younger people (especially men), the problem may well be more acute. I tutored the star basketball player of our high school last year, and his primary means of coping with the EPL his mother was pulling on his family was to retreat into World of Warcraft, to the detriment of his grades, athletic career, and romantic life that should have been extraordinarily fulfilling to him in ordinary circumstances.
I do believe that once the female behavior is fixed, that much of the male will follow, but certainly males are not innocent bystanders in all of this.
Sassy,
“I’m hoping things will be different this time around.”
Hope is not a plan, but I like the things I’m hearing, and the decision.
We’ll handle the hope while you get to work. You sound ready.
I do believe that once the female behavior is fixed, that much of the male will follow, but certainly males are not innocent bystanders in all of this.
In athletic competition, there is a very real effect of “playing down to your competition”. In other words, a really good team will often just barely beat a really bad team because they don’t bring their A game when playing the really bad team. They bring just the barely necessary level of game to still win.
I think some guys who otherwise might be somewhat upstanding guys bring the game/tactics/ethics, etc. to play to the lowest common denominator amongst female behavior. On some level male behavior will follow female behavior.
Badger said: “You can identify me by name, everybody knows who you are talking about.”
Wow! Someone is feeling self-important today.
SW rightly responds: “They didn’t, it was just one comment in a long thread.”
How could you let this internetty “male rage” ruin your Christmas holiday? Maybe he’s trying to be socially dominant? Or ‘owning the situation’? Or is that ”peacocking”? Or some other term? It’s all so confusing.
Are you saying that it’s still possible for a man to push for sex early and want an LTR with you?
Yes, because the pushing is the male version of a shit test, and your response is how he gauges.
christiankp,
Profound comments there. Top-quality big picture thinking. One problem with us humans is there are very few who do big picture thinking well. Very difficult to look at something X today and see the full ramifications looking out decades.
Mike C
That’s funny, because my own mom reiterated your words when I told her about Indian men in the past doing this. She said “They’re just trying to see if you are a bad girl or a good girl.”
If a man respects the word no (just as he’s trying to test your response), then I would see him as someone I would like to get to know further for an LTR.
Sassy,
Good luck, hope things work out.
That’s funny, because my own mom reiterated your words when I told her about Indian men in the past doing this. She said “They’re just trying to see if you are a bad girl or a good girl.”
What’s funny is it seems to me there is a lot of wisdom and accurate knowledge that used to get passed along from generation to generation to generation of women maybe going back hundreds of years, and somehow it seems to have gotten lost in the last 1-2 generations. Grandma and Great-Grandma probably knew and understood men 100x better than today’s woman.
“I confess I am selfishly and not so secretly pleased that you have come back online.
Ultimately, those wanting a life partner only need to find one person, and with luck and determination will conquer the SMP and stay out of their own way long enough to do so.”
So, butter a guy up, then hit him right where it hurts.
Just what I needed.
I suffer from the curse of the precocious child, and so am inordinately concerned with the many I can no longer charm as I once did, rather then the few I need to to find a happier state. As you note, our education system makes precocious children of us all, so it should come as no surprise that so many of us feel that curse as adults.
Thankfully my commenting here is not entirely motivated by a desire for company in that particular misery, and being now better aware of it should help to check it more fully.
As for the buttering up for the punch that works so well on me, and no doubt many of your peers, I get the sense that this is also the strategy you’re attempting to employ to appeal to your target audience (which accounts for some of the views you’ve expressed that have so riled your male commenters).
The problem is that it doesn’t work so well on that generation. They’ve been so relentlessly buttered-up their whole lives, that any sucking-up to them will cause them to tune you out before the punch is ever delivered. Just ask the legions of beta males how well it works for them. I was frankly a horrible teacher when I started out for this very reason.
I was in fact sitting with our (very good) band on Friday as we listened to our (world-class, for high schoolers) orchestra go through their final rehearsal for the big concert yesterday, and the conductor stopped the piece to very frankly let his violin section know how poorly they were playing and what exactly they needed to do to meet his exacting standards. Not in a mean way, not inordinately upset, just no pussy-footing around.
One of the (rowdiest) members of the band turned to me and said how much he wished the band director would do that, but that he was too nice and beat around the bush too much. They want it straight, no chaser. The good news is that if you give it too them, you would be amazed at the quality of the response.
This generation (both teens and twenties) will shit test a week-old puppy. Better be ready to pass.
Mike C
Completely agree.
“Grandma and Great-Grandma probably knew and understood men 100x better than today’s woman.”
“I can’t even fathom what 28 would have been like. You show me a guy who is a virgin at 28, 30, 35, and I’ll show you a guy who is seriously mentally fucked up.” – Mike C
Well, maybe. My sister’s supervisor is in his lower 40s and a straight virgin. He was the only guy in a roomful of women during a party my sister and her housemate were having at their place with a bunch of other hospital workers last time I was visiting. It was pretty late and the drinks had flowed. Being the only guy, and being a supervisor, he was the object of attention. He made a comment about some celebrity’s looks which apparently surprised a few present who thought he was gay. (I didn’t see any gay in him.) A frank discussion followed.
He just laughed about the gay stuff and said that wasn’t it but that he’d rather just “take care of himself” then bother with any woman “in his league.” It got pretty clinical, which was good because it got pretty personal – like “what do you think about when you ‘take care of yourself’?” personal. He said women that looked way better than us. This guy’s looks and height are…unfortunate, so I suspect the women he could realistically attract may not suit him. Maybe he idolizes porn star types.
In any event, he seemed happy enough even under the Merlot truth serum and our questioning. He’s apparently got a nice place and a steady job. Maybe his sex drive has just gone down since middle-age dawned on him.
“Maybe he idolizes porn star types.”
There are now porn-star types who more resemble Gisele Bundchen than Jenna Jameson. More importantly, there are easily over 100 of them (remember how important variety is in satisfying base male instincts), they crank out new content like crazy, and through the wonder of law enforcement reluctant to be seen too enthusiastically looking out for the interests of pornographers, its all free.
For many men today, sex (absent love) absolutely does not sell. They can get that, and better, for less.
As women, I think our gut reaction is to take things personally. You could see it in the Defining Sexy thread, which almost immediately became about Emma Watson, the person. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, it’s just how we communicate, and it’s why we’re so indirect with each other. I think a lot of this breaks down to a gap in male-female communication, and you do a very good job of summarizing the male communication style to which the vast majority of women cannot relate.
Ha, tell me about it. I just got in a fairly intense argument with my GF this afternoon where she ended up personalizing the discussion which is actually why I often avoid any sort of abstract male-female dynamic discussions with here.
She and I are huge Criminal Minds fans and we were watching this past week’s episode we DVR’ed. Long story short, turns out the killer in the episode started his killing rampage after he discovered he had been cuckolded by his wife with his best friend. Anyways, I used this as a launching point for some discussion and quickly any points I made about women generally speaking she somehow took personally.
Makes it difficult to have any constructive, abstract discussions when they immediately become about THAT woman you are having a conversation with or her friends. Everything becomes about personal stories.
Susan,
“Wow, thanks for sharing that link to the Yale Daily News. I cannot believe those young Amanda Marcottes were so abusive to the poor guy.”
This is the sort of wishful thinking that is getting you into trouble. Those aren’t young Amanda Marcottes, that’s the conventional wisdom among your target audience, backed now by the full power and authority of the Federal Government who has taken a very keen and direct interest in Yale’s SMP.
Deal.
“The simple algorithm is this: we hook up with the guys we are attracted to but who are not nice/good guys, and we are friends with the guys who are nice/good guys whom we are not attracted to. When there is a man who is a nice/good guy AND we are attracted to him, then we want a boyfriend.
Which is why there are no boyfriends.”
And you were saying how complex attraction was? Not really. You’ve identified ground-zero.
There are two current reasons they are not attracted to the good guys:
(1) Lack of promiscuity cues.
(2) Selecting for fatherhood cues seems like it conflicts with political commitments many have made at that age and in that milieu, so they screen out men who present them.
(3) The general risk-aversion bred into them from birth leads them to take various “safe” options. Going for it with a prospective Mr. Right of course being fraught with all sorts of danger. Better to put that off – he’s got all kinds of other good prospects anyway. Right? Right? No. Within the 80% of celibate men resides a very healthy chunk of the top 20% of the male MMP, many utterly flabbergasted at what they are doing wrong. The 463-bullet-point list has 463 points because 462 wasn’t enough to screen out every last good man.
As for the risk-aversion, see:
http://volokh.com/2012/02/17/glenn-reynolds-on-what-a-course-on-the-occupy-movement-might-teach/
“555 Susan Walsh February 18, 2012 at 6:16 pm
Unless you are a bisexual or a lesbian, women simply can’t afford to perform even slight hypergamous preference in 21st century. A boatload of women can’t afford to couple even from their “own level”. That’s the ugly math. It’s the men who will marry “up” if there will be marrying at all. The realities are now that the women should stay at work and let the men take the children and the house. Or more likely, do both-in-work approach. But just cut the crap that a man should be something in ones imagination. If you catch a good mate, great, you are lucky. You won in the game where odds are stacked against you.
True story.”
Not really. Thanks to the poor decisions of their peers, there are in fact plenty of good men available for these young women, once they’re made aware of their attractors and the dynamics driving them, and empowered to make decisions that are better for, yes, men, society, but ultimately, for themselves.
All it takes is the guts to being them up to speed.
Desiderius,
Earnest question for you. Aren’t you a college professor or high school teacher of juniors/seniors? What are you seeing?
Do you see some level of assortive getting together in terms of boyfriend/girlfriends and who is dating who, or do you see a ruthless competition amongst women for the very top/most dominant guys coupled with a ruthless filtering out/screening out any lesser guys who show even an inkling of lesser dominance/some misstep/too much emotion? Are the “good, decent” maybe not so smooth or super confident boys getting any sort of female interest at all?
Put another way, women are in fact free to pursue actual, traditional social status hypergamy* because so many are instead pursuing sexual status hypergamy and/or slumming it with safe herbs, or now pursuing even more exotic alternatives.
They have nothing to lose but promiscuity cues and vapid dorm-room political shibboleths.
* – the old-fashioned way (social circle/talent scout detective work. Ask elders you respect, they are dying to help you. But you knew that.)
Congratulations Ana.
Olive,
“The women have to change. ”
Has anyone else here considered what a shockingly new & revolutionary statement this is?
Mike C,
I’m a high school teacher with a 24-year-old sister very active in her local SMP. I’ve become as active in it myself as I am capable of doing over the last six months.
“Do you see some level of assortive getting together in terms of boyfriend/girlfriends and who is dating who, or do you see a ruthless competition amongst women for the very top/most dominant guys coupled with a ruthless filtering out/screening out any lesser guys who show even an inkling of lesser dominance/some misstep/too much emotion?”
Among high-schoolers? Really neither one. Probably less bf/gf than in my day, which is kind of a neutral thing. Not a big fan of serial monogamy among adults, but for teenagers, obviously marriage is not an option and they need the practice, but making serial monogamy too much of a norm at any age is problematic.
One thing I’ve noticed is that boys in general are far less beta in every way, good and bad, and the girls are becoming much more feminine. There are a lot more “tops” these days (sources of status – drama productions are well attended, respected, and supported, for instance) so its not at all clear who the most desirable boys are. PC is pretty much widely recognized as bullshit, especially among students, but it still dominates the curriculum, so a lot of informal learning goes on. As a Math teacher, this thankfully effects me less than others, but they’re adapting.
A lot of good role models for the kids, and these kids like that. They’re pretty authoritarian, for better or for worse. I’m not.
I think I’ve linked to Strauss and Howe before, but these things go in cycles and are ultimately self-correcting, or maybe they are corrected by the hard work of people like Susan, but our society at least seems to be able to stop itself somehow from going off the rails.
Jackie,
“Judge not, lest ye be judged” means we not only have to stop judging others to be bad. But that we also must stop seeing other people as “good.” In order to truly possess the enlightened mind (of Jesus in this case), we must rise above the duality and see through a monistic (monism? oneness? sorry, can’t find right word) prism.
Very true. I like that.
+11
I’m a high school teacher with a 24-year-old sister very active in her local SMP. I’ve become as active in it myself as I am capable of doing over the last six months.
If it is something you care to report back on, I’ll be interested to hear what you see out there on a personal level. I think you and I are around the same age (I’ll be 38 in a few weeks). I’m starting to wonder if there is a generational gap, and if today’s 16-20 year old is starting to have very different views/behaviors/etc then the 30-35 year old woman of today.
Among high-schoolers? Really neither one. Probably less bf/gf than in my day, which is kind of a neutral thing. Not a big fan of serial monogamy among adults, but for teenagers, obviously marriage is not an option and they need the practice, but making serial monogamy too much of a norm at any age is problematic.
I was really talking more about just similar SMV levels at least getting together for just an ice cream date or whatever, or if there is rampant hypergamy where the 5 girl is like “Eewwww, I would never date or go out with Bill” where Bill is her natural 5 counterpart.
One thing I’ve noticed is that boys in general are far less beta in every way, good and bad, and the girls are becoming much more feminine.
Good. Perhaps the pendulum is already starting to correct.
anon,
“Desiderius : “(1) Men are pigs (my Womyn’s Studies prof had the stats to back it up! I have stories!)”
I want to make sure that I’m not misunderstanding.
Is the meaning you’re using here of “men are pigs” = men are highly motivated by sex, are looking to attain it at the least cost possible and willing to take it if/whenever given the opportunity?”
That’s usually a piece of it. I’m thinking more along the lines of “a man acting like a decent human being requires some explanation.”
@Rum
I appreciate your feedback so much! I wish I’d seen it 5 hours ago… :-/ Thank you.
Your description of Roissy is so interesting, I’m going to think about that, and see if there’s some way to incorporate it here. What makes HUS unique, but also very challenging, is the very real presence of both sexes. While Roissy gets some women, it’s pretty clearly understood it’s a men’s club. If women don’t like it, they can take a hike, which is fair enough. I’m trying to walk a line here trying to keep both men and women entertained, informed, engaged, etc. I’m obviously prone to thinking and talking like a woman, and I can only be pushed so far before I find myself feeling defensive about my sex. There’s got to be a way of managing the dynamic better, even with my limitations.
If you or anyone else has any concrete suggestions, including constructive criticism, I’m listening.
A double Lenten sacrifice? I admire you! Question for Jackie and Bellita – soooo off topic. My husband is quite unhappy with the modifications to the language of the Mass. It affects the choir very dramatically, and he finds the language clunky. I agree with him. Not sure if you’ve seen this yet, Bellita, but I understand this will be worldwide. What is your opinion? (Note: I’m a C&E Catholic.)
@Sassy, good luck with your second try. Knowing your bf was a virgin does explain some things you’ve mentioned. And love can overcome a lot of hurdles.
Also, as Olive said, sometimes the woman changing her behavior can bring about dramatic changes in the man’s behavior.
Thanks everyone for the good wishes. I’m optimistic about this. I think by putting the knowledge I’ve learned here to good use, he and I have a great shot at happiness.
Sassy,
This is an amazing change in perspective! I’ll be really interested to see how your new way of thinking influences your relationship.
My own BF used to have moments of insecurity that would drive me insane (much like the moments you’ve described in the past with your BF). I’ve been experimenting a lot with my own behavior, and being extra loving and supportive seems to prevent the vast majority of those moments these days. Just throwing it out there in case you’re interested. Other than that, best of luck!
@christiankp
Your comment about the dependency chains sent a shiver up my spine – I have never heard these thoughts before. I have ordered Dench’s book, which here is called “The Frog, the Prince, and the Problem of Men.”
At first blush, it strikes me that women have enormous power, in that they determine the role of men. On the other hand you are saying that women should refrain from displacing men in the workplace. I understand that women’s gains have been men’s losses, on a 1:1 basis. Yet I personally find it hard to imagine living in a world where women are not educated, and do not produce anything besides children. And regardless of what happens with feminism – I do believe it will fail – we cannot return to such a world. It is unfathomable. Is there any compromise to be found?
Obviously, I am not familiar with Dench’s work, and I’m not sure I have understood correctly. I’ll comment more once I’ve read it.
I love it that Hope and Anacaona are pregnant together. They were sharing TTC worries recently, now they are joyous. We must find a way to have an HUS baby shower
I’d love to run that as a guest post, if you’re willing.
@Christiankp
You are a great addition here, I hope you will stick around and continue to share your knowledge. And your English is excellent by the way. You write like a native speaker.
@Pip
You’re a late arrival to the strife of the past two months or so, be glad! I wasn’t referring to Badger’s rage there – I had some interactions on another blog that I have likened to being waterboarded. All hell broke loose on Dec. 22nd, and while I wanted to spend time with family and needed to prepare for Christmas, I was extraordinarily preoccupied by the mess I found myself in online. In truth, I was not blameless in the situation, and of course got emotional and defensive, which just led to being submerged for longer periods of time. I think I came up for air around New Year’s. It’s an episode I’m trying to forget, and never want to repeat.
I think this is undoubtedly true, and the irony is, odds are they were only with one man during their lives. The sexes have drifted very far from one another, and our guard is up most of the time. Real “knowing” is rare.
@Desiderius
I was being sincere, I have no real motive to butter you up. I am especially fond of the literary bent you bring to these discussions.
As for shooting straight, I have found that usually leads to accusations that I’m trying to swing my big dick around. Come to think of it, that’s from the Gen X’ers. Do you really think Gen Y is so different? I’m curious because we don’t know yet how, whether or when Millennials will marry.
Susan Walsh,
It would be nice if some grandmothers posted here then to sort out the confusion in SMP. !Mine is dead and wouldn’t know anything about Western dating anyhow.
@Desiderius
No, those are literally Yale Women’s Center types who are indeed young Amanda Marcottes. The feminist speak is all over those comments. They’re completely prepped and rehearsed. I know a couple of women into that scene at Yale – it’s probably the most robust feminist college scene in the Ivies.
@Desiderius
This aligns with what I am hearing from college students as well, at least about the guys. The frat guys and athletes are all alpha asshats, but the rest of the men are not necessarily getting zero female attention. Certainly the boyfriends (real, not fake cheating types) are all from the 80%. And Mike C. will recall that a while back we got some reports of guys in that 80% wanting to “explore their options” rather than lock down a girl after one hookup.
I haven’t heard about an increase in femininity – do you have a sense of what’s driving that among high school students?
JM,
No such thing as “good people.”
Okay now I’m just giving you a hard time…
In any case, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. IMO the female tendency to fall for assholes cannot just be chalked up to a character flaw, but that’s just my opinion.
Susan
No one here doubts that if you had an actual dick that it not be up to the job of defending truth, justice, and the American Way. It would have the heft and size to do a John Wayne on all the bad guys.
It is the fact of your well brought-up children who have apparently thrived from the nipple on — that most strengthens the narrative that however much you deserve a dick to use as you see fit – heaven is still locked in discussion regarding the necessary permits.
Anacona, that is wonderful, congratulations!!!
I would love to talk more about pregnancy in the forum… do you still post there? I haven’t seen anything new in the TTC thread.
Yes, because the pushing is the male version of a shit test, and your response is how he gauges.
Of course it can also end up with the guy leaving if you are a good girl if he want a bad one at the moment. So I think is not the pushing early for sex what makes him a poor choice or not but what happens after the push.
She and I are huge Criminal Minds fans and we were watching this past week’s episode we DVR’ed. Long story short, turns out the killer in the episode started his killing rampage after he discovered he had been cuckolded by his wife with his best friend. Anyways, I used this as a launching point for some discussion and quickly any points I made about women generally speaking she somehow took personally.
My YA novel has a female character that cuckolds her beta orbiter from HS and is treated as a terrible thing to do, specially once her daughter finds out. Would American women accept that judgement? I know in my culture is considered a terrible thing to do too, well at least if the kid is not his. So this kind of things is worries me a bit. Is there any formal study on how many women actually consider cuckolding a “pecata minuta”
I love it that Hope and Anacaona are pregnant together. They were sharing TTC worries recently, now they are joyous. We must find a way to have an HUS baby shower
Utah, Boston, Southern California…well a cyber baby shower at the very least can be arranged.
I think this is undoubtedly true, and the irony is, odds are they were only with one man during their lives. The sexes have drifted very far from one another, and our guard is up most of the time. Real “knowing” is rare.
I think knowing about the sexes always has the natural consequence of reducing promiscuity if a woman knows that a man will be willing to have sex with 80% of the women he meet there is no way you can celebrate she getting pumped and dumped no matter how attractive the guy was, but if you think men are like women and they will only bang people they want to have relationships with…obviously is a reason to feel “empowered”
I would love to talk more about pregnancy in the forum… do you still post there? I haven’t seen anything new in the TTC thread.
Well post there if you want to talk I always check it but since I was the last one I didn’t added anything new. I was thinking on erasing it and opening a different one. But we can keep that one.
@Sassy
I wish you good luck in your second try, hopefully thinks work for the best.
New York Times reports today the nearly half of births to 30 years old “white” females are completely, no joke , dadless. Dadless forever. 50%missing uncles and cousins.
The Obama inspired ammo droaght has ended. I can nowadays get a 1000 round box of 9mm Nato for around 200 dollars.
“I was being sincere, I have no real motive to butter you up.”
I know. I wasn’t being entirely serious, I’ll confess I had my advice regarding dealing with your target audience in mind when I painted things in that light.
“I am especially fond of the literary bent you bring to these discussions.”
The purpose there is to show that these challenges are not new ones – both so we can appreciate that they have been tackled before, and thus are not insurmountable, and there exist resources upon which we can draw in finding solutions.
And, as you’ve noted, there is something in poetry which serves to raise our estimation of that which we and our fellow human beings are capable. That’s what humanism is about. Christian humanism, in my case, hence the avatar.
As for the Christian piece, to which my namesake was unabashedly devoted, Christ himself serves as our alpha, to relieve us of the burden of the dominance games that would otherwise be required to constantly reestablish who the alpha is among ourselves. This is the peace that surpasseth all understanding.
For the results of that civilization, see here:
http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/11/the-decline-of-violence
Christ also serves as our omega, to relieve us of the burden of finding the “other” to demonize, but that is more advanced theology than is perhaps appropriate for this forum.
“As for shooting straight, I have found that usually leads to accusations that I’m trying to swing my big dick around.”
How do you know they’re accusations and not admiration? With the decline of Christian humanist civilization, dominance games are again all the rage, or maybe I exaggerate. Competence at them I do sense is the price of admission for being taken seriously now.
“Come to think of it, that’s from the Gen X’ers. Do you really think Gen Y is so different?”
All I know is that the effectiveness of my teaching has taken off since I’ve become willing to (gently) establish dominance in my classroom.
“I’m curious because we don’t know yet how, whether or when Millennials will marry.”
I think the Boomers will see to it as they come to realize it is the only way that they can continue living in the manner to which they’ve become accustomed.
Mike C:
I hope Susan doesn’t mind me posting links here, but being physically pushy is considered a warning sign in this article.
http://www.modernghana.com/lifestyle/850/16/8-signs-hes-only-interested-in-sex.html
In my last relationship where I felt like my partner was respectful of sexual boundaries, I recall him suggesting or hinting towards taking things the next level. I wouldn’t call it pushy though. My definition of pushy is someone trying to feel you up or talking non-stop about sex, and then getting mad when you’re not giving them what they want. Perhaps other people on here have a different definition of what it means to push for sex.
Talking about YA books…
So I finished my second draft of my first book on my supernatural romance YA novel (80,000 words as of now), and I need some test readers. I opened a thread in the forum with details f0r anyone interested.
Thanks.
Anacaona, count on me for the test reading.
“I haven’t heard about an increase in femininity – do you have a sense of what’s driving that among high school students?”
It’s pretty well bursting at the seams, but they’re still afraid to let much of it show. All the most attractive girls sign up to serve as aides for the developmentally disabled class where they’re allowed to let all their love hang out as long as they shower it on the lucky boys with severe disabilities.
On the downside, my female math department head is mightily discouraged at the complete absence of female interest in her programming classes. Even the state champ girl soccer players turned into sissies when playing the boys in the dodgeball league I ran last year.
As for drivers? Maybe ask Strauss and Howe, they’re the ones who predicted it 20 years ago.
Anacaona, count on me for the test reading.
Yohami thank you for the offering but I need to warn you, is Supernatural Romance like you know Twilight and is inside the head of the leading lady as well with all that implies…are you into that genre?
I like Buffy and True Blood?
@Susan (#711)
Hey Susan!
“My husband is quite unhappy with the modifications to the language of the Mass. It affects the choir very dramatically, and he finds the language clunky. I agree with him. Not sure if you’ve seen this yet, Bellita, but I understand this will be worldwide. What is your opinion? (Note: I’m a C&E Catholic.)”
My honest and harsh opinion: Epic FAIL.
These people obviously don’t live in the real world. They think “consubstantial with the Father” is easier than “One in being with the Father, ” and I understand their intentions are to get back to a closer translation. But you know what they say about good intentions! 
I really think they are missing the point. Of all the changes they can be making right now, *this* is the one they chose?!
Imagine if they melted down all the gold in the Vatican, sold it trusting that God would provide, and used the money to devote to the “least among us” — churches would be packed to the rafters. People would *want* to come back to truly know God. And I bet the music would get way better, too.
(This is obviously not the place, but I have a lot of issues with the church hierarchy! The best way to put it is a quote from Thomas Jefferson: “I tremble for my country [church] when I reflect that God is just, and that justice cannot sleep forever.”)
When I feel bad, I read this awesome book I got from my mentor, about a Jesuit priest who went to live and serve among gang members. He started a business called “Homeboy Industries” where they could work and renew themselves. It’s called, _Tattoos On The Heart: THe Power of Boundless Compassion_.
http://www.amazon.com/Tattoos-Heart-Power-Boundless-Compassion/dp/1439153159/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
I know this is long! Thanks for such a great question, Susan
xoxo
I like Buffy and True Blood?
I think True Blood is urban paranormal fantasy if I remember my genres right.
It has chicks sex plots and supernatural weirdos
@Byron (#707)
Hey Byron
Glad you liked the passage & pleased to be of assistance!
Susan,
“Yet I personally find it hard to imagine living in a world where women are not educated, and do not produce anything besides children. And regardless of what happens with feminism – I do believe it will fail – we cannot return to such a world. It is unfathomable. Is there any compromise to be found?”
Yes, I see folks like ourselves joining with bewildered feminists to fight a rear-guard action defending the gains of first-wave (equity) feminism within the next 10-20 years, which is why I’m cautious about blaming too much of our current MMP dysfunction on feminism itself.
It reminds me of Talleyrand at the Congress of Vienna fighting valiantly (and with much success!) to save the stature and influence of France from the collapse of the French Revolution/Napoleon.
We’re in the Napoleonic Age of the Sexual Revolution (second-wave feminism was the Terror) where it arrogantly seeks to drive all before it (see the recent trampling of economic and religious freedom in the name of “reproductive rights”), inviting the inevitable fall. We need to prepare now to survive the coming deluge.
“No, those are literally Yale Women’s Center types who are indeed young Amanda Marcottes. The feminist speak is all over those comments. They’re completely prepped and rehearsed. I know a couple of women into that scene at Yale – it’s probably the most robust feminist college scene in the Ivies.”
My apologies. Last I was in Ivy land (2004), I was unaware of any other, at least among the savvier women. Well, I guess there were the girls handing out evangelical pamphlets, but they weren’t taken seriously.
@Rum (#664)
“Imagine a Saloon in the Olde West where everybody is drunk and carrying loaded pistols.”
Hi Rum,
Did you see Uncle Tom Munson’s commentary/fan fic, that features this exact scenario? Susan in the proprietor and “Naomi” is the name of the sawed-off shotgun she keeps under the bar to handle any “incidents.” It was hilarious!
The rest of your comment was really great explanation of communication styles as well.
Thanks, Rum!
It has chicks sex plots and supernatural weirdos
I really love your support but you need to remember that I’m mostly a chicken (I’m doing this because I will soon need the money and mothers cannot afford have egos it that affects their children) and if you come down and tell me that is a “piece of crap” even if others test readers tell me is good. I will very likely not try to sell it or at the very least wait another year or two. I already was part of a literary group that principal function was to make sure you never publish anything unless is 100% perfect and loved by the “creme of the creme” and so far I am the only one from that group that has published at least 3 works so thank you but I really don’t think you will like it. I hope you don’t get mad if I ever have a book that I think you will actually enjoy I will sent it to you for sure.
@Rum
In my next life I want one. Or I refuse to come back.
Jackie,
Yes, I got an earful about those changes from my liberal Catholic friends last week. We have the opposite problem in the Presbyterian Church where our efforts to expurgate any mention of Fathers in our liturgy has introduced similar problems.
Bummer. Best of luck anyway.
Susan,
“In my next life I want one. Or I refuse to come back.”
Unless I’m mistaken, you do have one near at hand, do you not?
I’m sure a second coming could be arranged.
@WW
No, not at all. The spam filter has – fingers crossed – been good lately. Only poor MMM got snagged for no reason. Usually one link won’t red flag a comment, though.
@Desiderius
Hi Desiderius,
I just see so much of church taken up by petty squabbling that I feel Jesus’s teachings are being lost. Does this make any sense?
I was perhaps hyperbolic in my reply
By the way, as the “Prince of Humanists” you are remarkably savvy for being 500+ years old!
@Desiderius
Christ also serves as our omega, to relieve us of the burden of finding the “other” to demonize, but that is more advanced theology than is perhaps appropriate for this forum.
I love this. It may be the best thing I read on a “Game” blog all year. Thanks so much for writing it.
@Susan
My husband is quite unhappy with the modifications to the language of the Mass. It affects the choir very dramatically, and he finds the language clunky. I agree with him. Not sure if you’ve seen this yet, Bellita, but I understand this will be worldwide. What is your opinion? (Note: I’m a C&E Catholic.)
You were right to guess that I haven’t heard it yet. We were supposed to get the new translation (in those churches that use the English language liturgy) at the start of this year, but so far nothing has changed.
My American friends tend to be positive about the translation. (But of course I’d have friends who would be!
) Honestly, you and Jackie are possibly the only Americans I can call friends who have been critical of it.
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