Millennials and Marriage

February 17, 2012

This is the second of a two-part article on the political and economic forces surrounding marriage trends. Part One may be found here.

Earlier this week, Stephanie Coontz, an author and professor specializing in family and marriage, wrote The M.R.S. and the Ph.D. in the New York Times. The purpose of her article was to discredit claims that educated women are less likely to marry, as Kate Bolick claimed in her article All The Single Ladies. Bolick noted the “dramatically shrinking pool of…marriageable men – those who are better educated and earn more than women do.” Coontz asserts that women are worried about scaring away potential partners, including those who earn less, and have less education. She believes that women’s primary objections to marrying men with lower social status are outdated, revolving around the need for them to do all the housework to assuage the husband’s ego, and the belief that men earning less than their wives are more likely to struggle with erectile dysfunction. In other words, she believes that women fear they will emasculate their attractive, but less accomplished husbands.

In truth, women will be loathe to marry those men, not because they worry about the male ego, but because they will resist partnering with men of lower social status than themselves. Coontz defines the problem in terms of what women want, when she should be focusing on the failure of American institutions to produce a generation of thriving males. She wants women to marry down rather than to bring men up. 

Though Coontz briefly mentions female hypergamy – the desire a woman has to marry a man of higher social status than herself – she dismisses it as a cultural construct prevalent from the 40s to the mid-70s. She argues that the modern woman has no such baggage to contend with:

The most important predictor of marital happiness is not how much she looks up to her husband but how sensitive he is to her emotional cues and how willing he is to share the housework and child-care. And those traits are often easier to find in a low-key guy than a powerhouse.

Hmmmph, try telling that to Athol Kay at Married Man Sex Life. If Stephanie Coontz doesn’t correctly grasp the nature of female hypergamy, how can we expect college students to do so? Fellow blogger Bb shares the other important half of the equation:

Coontz seems to be ignoring attraction completely, and advocating straight for comfort qualities only…If a relationship is a fire, then attraction provides the spark to light it up. Comfort serves as coal to sustain. But you need both to keep the flames going.

The Wall St. Journal’s James Taranto, in Girls Gone Hyper, takes Coontz to task for her Muddled Feminist Think. 

Marriage has declined much less sharply among the educated and affluent than among the so-called working class. But it has still declined, and it can be expected to decline more absent a reversal of the trend toward greater female education and accomplishment.

Taranto gets it re female sexual attraction:

For young ladies anxious about spending their lives alone, Coontz offers this advice:

Valentine’s Day is a perfect time to reject the idea that the ideal man is taller, richer, more knowledgeable, more renowned or more powerful. The most important predictor of marital happiness for a woman is not how much she looks up to her husband but how sensitive he is to her emotional cues and how willing he is to share the housework and child-care. And those traits are often easier to find in a low-key guy than a powerhouse.

I am not arguing that women ought to “settle.”

That last sentence is both funny and poignant. Coontz has just advised young ladies to marry short, poor, ignorant, obscure, ineffectual men who will help with household chores. If that’s not settling, the word has no meaning.

Taranto mentions William Bennett’s recent exhortation that “It’s time for men to man up.” He sees Bennett as making the same argument as Coontz, urging men to win women by doing what used to be considered women’s work. 

Both think that more equality between the sexes will make marriage more attractive. But if female hypergamy is an immutable feature of humanity’s animal nature, it will have the opposite effect.

Taranto sees this effort as a bizarre attempt to match cat ladies with basement dwelling boys. He has a point – the “have nots” comprise females past their fertility expiration date, and males who haven’t yet reached independent adulthood. 

Cat lady Dominique Browning, writing recently in the New York Times (The Times is soooo on Team Quirkyalone!) is quick to assert that women are the more independent sex:

The world divides into two groups: one (men), who think you can fall at any moment, and when you’re down, you’re out, and you need help; the other (women), who pick themselves up and move on.

…Men are hard-wired to feel danger all the time. I know there must be science around somewhere to back up this assertion, but seriously, that’s what makes a man a man. A man is on guard because that is his job…Being alone feels dangerous to a man. No one has your back. No one feeds you. No one nurses you in your sickbed. No one takes up a watch if you vanish or sends out a search party if you wander off the trail.

…To a woman, being home feels safe. We love our nests. We tend them, and in exchange we expect them to keep us snug and warm and serene and safe. Which, generally, they do. Because nests are reliable.

…A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. Now I understand why a man needs marriage like a fish needs water.

It’s a mistake to assume that middle-aged women, triumphant in divorce and retreating to feminist slogans, speak for a new generation of women. Here are some findings about the women of Generation Y, born between 1985 and 2004:

  • “Personal” goals of getting married, having children or owning a home trump “professional” goals of becoming a manager, earning a certain salary or starting a business. (63% vs. 23%).
  • 81% of Gen Y women plan to return to work after having children.
  • Research by the Families and Work Institute found that 50% of Gen Y (men and women) place higher priority on family than work, 37% place the same priority on their work and family, and only 13% place higher priority on work than their family.
  • A 2010 Pew Research Center study found that 52% of Gen Y polled thought being a good parent was of the utmost importance in life.
  • 68% say becoming a mom is on their priority list.
  • A large number of Gen Y women are burning out on their careers by age 30. While 53% of corporate entry-level jobs are held by women, that number drops to 37% for middle-management.
  • 70% of Millennials (men and women) want to marry, and 74% want children.
  • A survey of Gen Y women revealed that 59% feel that “living together” is a legitimate lifestyle and a majority said it is okay to remain unmarried even if they have children.
  • Demographer Kenneth Gronbach believes that Generation Y will begin to “marry with a vengeance” as they hit the average age at first marriage.

The body of research is all about predicting what Millennials will do. They actually haven’t gotten there yet. The oldest Gen Y’ers are just 27 today, still below the average marriage age. They grew up in a highly materialistic culture that prioritizes pleasure over responsibility and hookups over relationships.  Companies are scrambling to figure out how to market most effectively to this entitled demographic, in some cases offering an outright argument for delaying marriage:

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alxpfdcOSqc

We don’t know how many of the next generation of women will get married, or to whom. I believe that the vast majority of women will continue to want to marry, and some will be disappointed. Rather than listen to the embittered women who want them to opt out entirely, they should embrace a long-term strategy for marriage and family by seeking out good men early and taking themselves off the market once they’ve found one.

 

One Pingback/Trackback

  • Emily

    Awww! Look at the BABY! :D

  • Emily

    Also: That Honda commercial makes no sense. There’s no reason why you can’t do all that stuff while you’re married. (Although children would probably make it a bit more complicated.)

    Btw, what do you think the percentages would be if these questions were asked to Gen X women?

  • Lavazza

    “Rather than listen to the embittered women who want them to opt out entirely, they should embrace a long-term strategy for marriage and family by seeking out good men early and taking themselves off the market once they’ve found one.”

    IDK. There’s a lot of good men who are divorced fathers and who don’t want to remarry and have more kids, but would not mind a low investment LTR. Women who make a choice, be it early marriage or no marriage and (own) kids, and stick to it have a better chance than women who would like to cover all bases.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Good article, its nice to see someone besides the manosphere putting out the stats showing exactly why there are less women in middle to high end business, politics, etc – because they still want to have families or burn out.

    Now if only we can get feminism to stop telling women to wait till they’re 30+ to follow those goals. At the top end of this age range (26), I certainly make it a priority to look at women a few years younger than me to see what their priorities are rather than women my age.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    My husband and I are in our late 20s and married at 26. Just a year or two too old to be considered Gen Y or Millenials. But I definitely see a return to marriage among my peers. Almost half of the people I went to high school with are married, and several have kids already.

    On the education gap: I have a coworker friend who has a PhD (in a soft subject, but from a well-known prestigious university on the west coast), and she is in her mid-30s and married with 2 kids. Her husband might only have a bachelor’s or might not even have one, and does not earn as much as she does. However, she is very happy with her family life and loves her kids.

    She is probably an exception, but her story does demonstrate that it’s not men who don’t want to marry higher-achieving women, but rather women themselves who often don’t want to marry lesser-achieving men. If a woman is willing, her marriage prospects open up a lot more.

  • LS

    “The most important predictor of marital happiness for a woman is not how much she looks up to her husband but how sensitive he is to her…”

    She ignores this age-old truism:

    “Nothing can bring you happiness but yourself.” — Ralph Waldo Emerson

  • Glasses

    I learned nothing new in this post. Is HUS done?

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    @ Emily @ 1.

    Hahahaha.
    My thoughts exactly.
    I didn’t quite get past the baby…what’s this post about again?

    :-)

  • JQ

    *A 2010 Pew Research Center study found that 52% of Gen Y polled thought being a good parent was of the utmost importance in life.
    *68% say becoming a mom is on their priority list.
    . . .
    *70% of Millennials (men and women) want to marry, and 74% want children.

    Raising children has high fiscal costs. This is hardly surprising, I think to anyone here. I think this fact and the above statistics when shaken not stirred yield an interesting cocktail which may be of interest, namely: given a minimum level of desired material quality of life with children in the picture, then it behooves women to require their prospective husbands to have a minimum earning power.

    The logic train looks something like this:
    Desired quality of life with children (retirement investments, home ownership, kind of cars, amount of time each parent spends with the kids, target neighborhood for schools, status, etc) implies a minimum cost of living which must be balanced between both spouses. That most Gen Y-types highly value being a good parent, presumably they desire to raise their children in good neighborhoods with good schools et al which means relatively high standard of living requirements and costs. Excluding some edge cases, time spent working is time not spent with the children, so relative earnings power to meet the desired standard of living needs to reflect relative amounts of time each parent spends with the children and/or engaging in domestic labor.

    That there is a high cost already means earnings power is an issue, but the real kicker is the last point: if a woman wants to spend more time at home with the children than her husband especially during the first few years (let’s face it, once they start school it is much easier to work outside the home) the he has to bear a larger share of the already high costs of achieving the desired quality of life.

    In short, those with big dreams for how to make their children’s lives wonderful need to be high earners (most men?) and if not high earners themselves while single in order to save the money to subsidize said dreams marry high earners (most women?)

    The question I have is how many Gen Y women want to be SAHM’s or take a major hours cut until their kids start school–or in some cases until middle school–if possible.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JQ

      The question I have is how many Gen Y women want to be SAHM’s or take a major hours cut until their kids start school–or in some cases until middle school–if possible.

      Good question. Based on the surveys we’re seeing, I would think it’s pretty high. They do not want to be stressed out to the degree their own mothers were. If they do turn out to be traditional in their choices, I expect more SAHMs. The question is, are they willing to reduce their consumption to live on one income?

  • Just1X

    So do women feel good about being sold relationship advice by a cat lady?

    “Being alone feels dangerous to a man. No one has your back. No one feeds you. No one nurses you in your sickbed. No one takes up a watch if you vanish or sends out a search party if you wander off the trail.”

    ORLY?

    I hope she knows all about women, because she knows fuck-all about men.

    “…A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. Now I understand why a man needs marriage like a fish needs water.”

    This feels about as wrong as you can get, best she sticks to cats. Hope they don’t get hungry when she dies and they take days to discover the body…just sayin’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This feels about as wrong as you can get, best she sticks to cats. Hope they don’t get hungry when she dies and they take days to discover the body…just sayin’

      Haha, I knew that would be red meat for the guys, I couldn’t resist including it. Honestly, it’s just sexism and bigotry. Why does the New York Times publish that crap?

  • Charm

    I just want to marry equal, not up. I’d take a guy that makes 50k a year at a stable job over one that made twice that with a flashier title. I guess thats because I dont really identify with hypergamy. Not to say I want to marry down since I’d hold a man to the same standard that Id hold myself, but that doesnt mean that he must make more than me. Lol, he needs to make enough to provide for a family.

    Hypergamy is truly baffling. I dont get it. Why cant women look up to men for having a strong character and treating her well? For providing s decent life for her? Sheesh.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Charm

      While I think that hypergamy is real, I also believe it is on a spectrum. You sound like you’re in the left-hand tail. That’s good – it dramatically increases the potential pool of men you find attractive, and it means your odds of finding a life partner in this SMP are greater than average. The women on the other end of the spectrum are pretty much doomed. They’ll chase bad boys well into their 30s.

  • Mike M.

    There’s a truckload of accomplished, marriageable men out there. Go look for men with STEM degrees. Knock one over the head (metaphorically), drag him to the altar. They might not fit the “Good Girl Reforms Bad Boy” storyline, but they are a much better marriage prospect than a girlish fantasy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike M.

      There’s a truckload of accomplished, marriageable men out there. Go look for men with STEM degrees. Knock one over the head (metaphorically), drag him to the altar. They might not fit the “Good Girl Reforms Bad Boy” storyline, but they are a much better marriage prospect than a girlish fantasy.

      Yes. Not to mention that STEM guys are about to be the new black. I’ll be writing more about that in a post on education next week.

  • NorCalFrank

    Coontz’s article makes me want to start my on blog. Coontz is very smart and very political. She pulled a classic political move in her NY Times piece, popularized by Bill Clinton, of when confronted with a difficult question, simply re-phrase it slightly and then answer your own re-phrased (different) question with the correct answer.

    The question is women’s FIANCIAL STATUS vis a vis men, NOT EDUCATIONAL ATTAINEMNT vis a vis men (which is the question Coontz answered). Coontz’s rephrasing the question in this context is inappropriate.

    Bottom line: women aren’t going to marry down financially. They may be more willing to marry down educationally, but that is NOT the same as marrying down financially. I have heard Coontz confronted with this question only once directly in one of her numerous radio interviews. What did she do? She ran under the table and hid. She knows the answer.

  • Charm

    Does it matter whether or not a woman wants to be a SAHM or not regarding a mans income? Or are they not thinking that far in the future? If a woman plans on continuing to work and not SAH then her husbands income shouldnt matter too much. Though, I fear the answer to is question is that women want the option to be a SAHM or career mom so the man would need to accomodate her on both options thus having to be well off finanacially.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Charm

      I thought it was significant that 81% of women plan to keep working after they have children. For most people, that will be an economic necessity. And many women do wish to work – they just don’t want an all-consuming job that totally stresses them out. I would have welcomed a part-time gig when I was a SAHM, but there weren’t any. I did some independent consulting, but mostly my choice was SAH or 80 hour workweeks. I did have a choice, though. Many women don’t.

  • jennister

    I think it is wrong to put so much focus on materialistic things and income when finding a partner or being a good parent. Being a gen X divorced mommy of a 2.5 yr old I’m not looking for a man to provide for me but to have a companion, someone that I can respect and love… and have fun with. Would someone younger reject a person like that because they couldn’t provide the future kids the same status things as everyone else in the neighborhood? It seems so shallow and awful parenting to me. I want to raise my kid to appreciate what he has and be grateful for family and friends ect. Not worrying that he has the same stuff as every other kid.

    One time I was at Disney world and there was a family with four kids from 12 ish to 5 ish in line in front of us early in the day. All 4 were complaining and whining to their parents that they were bored and wanted to go home! For real? Disney?! you have failed as a parent if you manage to take the fun of Disney world away from you kids!

  • Odds

    @ Charm

    If you don’t get hypergamy, you’re probably not an exception, you’re just looking at the wrong things. Do you want a guy who is more confident than average? Would prefer (if not require) a tall guy? A fit one? A socially savvy (if not necessarily extroverted) guy? A guy with any talents or traits that set him above and apart from the rest? A smarter-than-average guy?

    In other words, would you prefer a man who is utterly average in every way, from personality to body to career to brains, or one who has at least a few standout ones? (Not a trick question – the obvious answer is ok here)

    Now, pick one favored trait and imagine two hypothetical potential suitors. Knowing only that they are equal in all other ways, but one is better in that favored trait, which one are you attracted to? (Again, the obvious answer is okay).

    Next, here’s the kicker – this valued hypothetical guy, would he be enough to satisfy you completely? Do you believe you could be romantically and sexually content with him, and not want or need other guys (except for the occasional look)?

    That last part is half of what separates hypergamy from just liking the best option. It’s that, like Oscar Wilde, you are satisfied with the best, however the best is defined to you (your tingle may just find, say, height to be a better status indicator than money). It’s wanting the best in one or more fields, rather than just having certain minimum standards and wanting everything above those standards (the way a guy does).

    The other half is the desire to trade up, but that takes a much harsher bit of introspection than most people are willing to get into – truthfully, I wouldn’t trust any answers on that subject from anyone under sixty.

  • Odds

    To build on that last bit, I should clarify that I don’t buy the idea of income being the focus of hypergamy, at least not directly. Income is often either a substitute for social savvy (betas), or the source of confidence leading to social savvy (some alphas). It’s useful only as an easily-measured correlating trait to what really matters.

    Plenty of women over the last forty years married and then divorce-robbed men with higher incomes. I’d contend that these women were either never really attracted in the first place, or that their attraction was a temporary readjustment of their biological drive toward a new strategy as they approached 30 (“Anyone will do so long as he can pay for my (not his) baby!”. It can hardly be hypergamy if the attraction isn’t present and real – it’s just mercenary. (I realize we could be using hypergamy in the strict “pairing” sense and not the “attraction” sense, but then we’re just playing with data rather than trying to pull solutions out of it)

    When it comes to solutions, I find it troublesome that the trade-up impulse is so tightly wound up int he whole concept of hypergamy. It’s not as obvious a problem as the male cheating thought-process (namely, if a woman’s good or easy enough, he’s attracted, with little or no effect on his feelings for wifey). Being obvious and universally looked down on, the male process is easier to counter – any attractive woman is a real but temporary threat. She knows it and can work to keep him, he knows it and can work to control himself. The concept of women cheating is firmly embedded in our awareness, but the real motivations are not. Even knowing them, I don’t see how to counter them. What could I do if I had a girlfriend and a man just like me, only more confident and social, expressed interest in her? Even if we both know about hypergamy, what does one do to curb the impulse? The impulse itself makes me seem more like a beta loser in comparison; the other guy’s mere existence makes her less attracted to me, even if she never actually bangs him.

    Moreover, I’m hesitant to rely on any solution that requires women to control themselves, partly because attraction is not a choice, and partly because I strongly prefer solutions that are under my own control. But there’s only so much that Game and good AMOGing can do, and I still fall into the try-hard behavior patterns if I don’t pay attention. That leads us right back to the original problem – what, if anything, can be done (by men or women) to reliably counter the hypergamous impulse?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Odds

      what, if anything, can be done (by men or women) to reliably counter the hypergamous impulse?

      I don’t believe the hypergamous impulse looms, threatening stable relationships. The accepted definition/view of it addresses whom women are willing to marry. If a woman marries a man she perceives is higher status than herself, the hypergamy box is checked and that’s the end of it. If a woman “settles” by marrying a man she does not look up to, that need goes unmet, and I believe she’ll be seeking higher status men until she meets it. I also believe that if a man’s status erodes significantly during a marriage, or is dwarfed by her extreme rise in status, then the match becomes unstable.

      By the way, there’s a sort of male counterpart to hypergamy – men prefer to be higher status than their mates. So the instability that arises with a great differential is occurring on both sides.

      I believe that the manosphere-perpetrated idea of women constantly angling to trade up is inaccurate.

  • VD

    I learned nothing new in this post. Is HUS done?

    Yes, precisely. You are now ready to go forth into the SMP fully armed. Good luck, good night, win awards.

  • rach

    Susan, I love your blog and have been reading it religiously for years now, but please, stop confusing “loath” with “loathe!” I’ve caught this mistake in several of your posts recently, and I die a little inside each time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @rach

      What? There is a difference? Hang on…OMG you’re right! That is my biggest vocab error since I mixed up enervating and energizing. I’m sorry it took my ignorance to get you to de-lurk, but I’m glad you did. Thanks for setting me straight. And comment on the content sometime!

  • Passer_By

    @Glasses

    “I learned nothing new in this post. Is HUS done?”

    You have snatched the pebble from Susan’s hand – it is time for you to leave. Don’t forget to pick up the boiling caldren to get your scar tattoo on the way out.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “Yes. Not to mention that STEM guys are about to be the new black. I’ll be writing more about that in a post on education next week.”

    Man – where was that back when I was an EE.

  • Candide

    @ Odds

    Nail it. When you ask women about the average man that they’d be willing to date, it’s never a real average guy, but more like the average among the 20% of men that are visible to them.

    I love this from Girls Gone Hyper:

    “One man who taught at a women’s college in the 1950s told me his colleagues used to joke that once they knew a woman had earned a Ph.D., they didn’t even need to ask what she had specialized in: clearly, it was in “Putting Hubby Down.””

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    That ad makes me sad a better ending would had been her saying “Yes…there is a lot of fun things we can do together”. Now Honda is in my list of companies to boycott. I preferred Volvo anyway ;)

  • Wudang

    “While I think that hypergamy is real, I also believe it is on a spectrum. You sound like you’re in the left-hand tail. That’s good – it dramatically increases the potential pool of men you find attractive, and it means your odds of finding a life partner in this SMP are greater than average. The women on the other end of the spectrum are pretty much doomed. They’ll chase bad boys well into their 30s.”

    When I read the Taken in Hand site I am struck by how extremely hypergamous a lot of the women there are. Waaaaay more than average.

  • Charm

    @odds

    I think I get it more now, but to be honest, I feel like a lot of hypergamy is wrapped in what is comsidered good or best on a societal level. I know women are driven by the hamster and what not but they are often fueled by the fairy tales they are sold growing up about how they should be treated how the should behave. I think thats the point I dont get. I want a mate that can provide, who is confident, and skilled in something, but its based on how I see these things. I could care less if dick tom and harry thought negatively about someone I liked. I wouldnt need the approval or opinion of other people The herd mentality of hypergamy confuses me. All women want the same outlandish shit that they arent entitled to because someone else got it.
    I dont get that. Maybe this is because women no longer recognize their own value and are over selling themselves? They all think they deserve the absolute best?

    Oh, and yes I’d like a tall man. But thats because Im 5’11. Though thats not written in stone. Ill date a couple of inches shorter without a problem. Its the 5’1 girl with the 6′ minimum requirement that make lol.

    @susan

    I hope so. I thought that confidence and self assurance were normal in most people. I guess Im projecting in that case. According to Odds it hypergamous to want confidence. I thought that was average. Mostly though I just dont write people off for what I see as trivial. I can give a guy a break. I think alot of women just NEXT without evaluating the situation.

  • GudEnuf

    Selfish Reason’s to Have More Kids is a great book for millennial to read. It gives practical advice for people who want to have kids, but are worried about it cramping their lifestyle.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      Selfish Reason’s to Have More Kids is a great book for millennial to read. It gives practical advice for people who want to have kids, but are worried about it cramping their lifestyle.

      I haven’t read it yet, but from what I’ve gathered, it argues that helicopter parenting is unnecessary and harmful. Having been guilty of a bit of that myself, I think that’s a useful concept that Millennials can benefit from. I hope your generation won’t make the same mistakes mine did.

  • Lindsay

    As an Xer, I was raised with popular culture such as John Hughes movies and Reality Bites, where women went for the “edgy” slacker instead of the well-off dude (like Ben Affleck’s character in Reality) or the nerd who was going to go into STEM and make lots of money. I didn’t copy or look up to the pop-culture of my generation, but I find it describes the zeitgeist well. Perhaps it was a harbinger of current times, too. Gen-X women are more likely to be the primary breadwinner (20-25% of married households) or out-earn their husbands than ever before. Unfortunately, we didn’t get here because we did cool shit, like obtaining more high-level management positions or working in tech more often than our early Boomer mothers did. (Well, ok, I did, prior to losing my job. But as this recession shows, past successes are no guarantee of future income.) Nor did we get here because the economy did so well that there were 2 six-figure management jobs for every man, woman, child, and goat. We got here because the economy tanked and the jobs that my grandparents were able to build a middle-class lifestyle with in the 50s and 60s, despite little or no education, are never coming back.

    Reality does indeed bite, Miss Ryder. Oh, how it bites.

    My college and career decisions had nothing to do with gender politics, though. I was raised by grandparents who were born in the early 1910s, meaning they survived the “other” worst economy in American history. All children in the family, regardless of gender, were ordered to go to college, preferably grad school, and ultimately, take on higher-paying careers, all of which my grandparents saw as “plain common sense,” having known what it was like to go hungry and penniless. YMMV. Some people may call that feminism – then again, sometimes people ascribe to feminism anything that lays outside of the 1950s/60s well-off suburbanite model with one working parent, which was itself an anomaly in American history. I call it well-meaning advice based on what my grandparents knew – and advice with no political strings attached, at that. As they experienced life, education and a well-paying career were the only ways out of poverty. Their guidance was fortuitous, because had I not gone into tech, I wouldn’t have the unemployment payouts I’m receiving today, nor the savings account balance to draw from.

    Does this model work for Generation Y? Too soon to tell, but I’m not sure it does. The economy isn’t creating jobs quickly enough to accommodate all the new high-school graduates, let alone the new college graduates, MBAs, JDs, etc. Education has never been a worse guarantee of economic stability.

    My husband is less educated than I am and has always earned less than half my income while working. This has never bothered me. I also never went for big-dog breadwinner alpha guys, since they’re not the type to tolerate many of my attributes. I’m proud of who I am, warts and all, and won’t apologize for being me (nor tolerate being harassed or bullied for same), but neither will I force myself into a relationship style or lifestyle that’s clearly not a fit.

    It’s also not clear how women are totally at fault for hypergamy if men are equally vocal about how turned off they are by women who are taller than/more educated than/have more money than/are as intelligent or smarter than them, but as I see it, people have their tastes and preferences, and they’ll either find what they’re looking for or they won’t. People have to figure things out as best suits them. Life isn’t a test or a math problem with only one right answer.

  • Sassy6519

    While I think that hypergamy is real, I also believe it is on a spectrum. You sound like you’re in the left-hand tail. That’s good – it dramatically increases the potential pool of men you find attractive, and it means your odds of finding a life partner in this SMP are greater than average. The women on the other end of the spectrum are pretty much doomed. They’ll chase bad boys well into their 30s.”

    I think all women are hypergamous, to a certain extent, but what qualities they are hypergamous for vary. Women who value intelligence want the smartest guys. Women who value physical attractiveness want the best looking men. Women who value money want the wealthiest men. Women who value confidence want the most confident men.

    For men, it’s all about finding their niche and targeting women who value that niche. If you are smart, play that up with a woman who swoons for intellect.

    Also, keep in mind that a trait is only quantifiable if it can be compared to something else. Think about it. Why do many males of other animal species battle things out in their hierarchies in front of females? The females are able to assess a male’s fitness by comparing it to another male’s. The men duke things out, and the females follow the victor. One thing I realized is that human male hierarchical battles don’t take place in front of women often. It’s usually done in the sole company of other men. There is no way for a woman to tell where a man falls on the ladder easily because the pecking order rituals aren’t performed in front of us like other species. The only example that is the exception to this would be sports. It explains why a good chuck of women swoon for athletes. There is a clear winner and loser, so women have an easier time determining where any given man falls within the hierarchy.

    I say we bring back old time public jousting and sword fighting in armor. Nothing will get the corsets bursting faster.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Selfish Reason’s to Have More Kids is a great book for millennial to read. It gives practical advice for people who want to have kids, but are worried about it cramping their lifestyle.

    I got that book for Christmas! I had just read the prologue so far good to have another recommendation for reading it! :)

  • JQ

    The question is, are they willing to reduce their consumption to live on one income?–Susan @ 20

    There are, I think, two parts to this. First is whether or not they already understand some lifestyle shift is necessary. I doubt anyone, anywhere, can truly comprehend what having a child means for a couple until it happens. The second part has to do with the extent to which a woman who reduces her hours or stays at home can generate value with domestic labor to compensate for the lost income. The two big examples I can think of are child care (as opposed to paying a daycare), cooking (as opposed even to buying pre-made, although there are capital costs and a learning curve). IIRC old-school kitchen skills (canning, baking, et al) are starting to get trendy again.

  • GudEnuf

    “Oh, and yes I’d like a tall man. But thats because Im 5’11. Though thats not written in stone. Ill date a couple of inches shorter without a problem. Its the 5’1 girl with the 6′ minimum requirement that make lol. “

    One of my tall friend-girls said that she gets annoyed every time she sees a tall man with a short woman. “If every woman would just date a man in the same height percentile as her, then all of guys could date a guy who was taller than us. But instead, all the girls go for the tallest guys, meaning that tall girls like us have to fight tooth-and-nail just to have a guy who’s a couple inches taller. When a six foot guy dates a five foot girl, all his extra tallness goes to waste.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      One of my tall friend-girls said that she gets annoyed every time she sees a tall man with a short woman

      Haha, yes I hear this all the time. It will happen whenever there is a perceived shortage. I’ve read that 15% of women on JDate are not Jewish, and it really, really pisses of the Jewish women. I’ve also seen women with large frames or bone structure get very annoyed that a thin woman goes for a muscular guy, because they want a big man to make them feel feminine. It’s just another form of female intrasexual competition.

  • Charm

    @wudang

    Ive read taken in hand. I dont agree with all of it, but dominant energy is attractive. Id like someone to drive my ship for a while. Though Id be there to take over when he needed a break as well. I dont get that need to be dominant all the time. Its exhausting. I have a strong personality and can weather the hell out of a storm but even the strongest person needs a break. Some of the women want their husbands to make all the decisions all the time. Thats tiresome as well as burdensome. Its like leading a dig around with a damn stick. I dont get that type of dynamic but if the couple likes it, more power to them.

  • GudEnuf

    Anacaona: I got that book for Christmas! I had just read the prologue so far good to have another recommendation for reading it!

    Tell me what you think when you’re finished!

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Tell me what you think when you’re finished!

    Don’t wait up I have two books to read and one to finish before I can get that one. I will let you know for sure!

  • GudEnuf

    When I read the Taken in Hand site I am struck by how extremely hypergamous a lot of the women there are. Waaaaay more than average.

    To the contrary, all the women seem to happy with the man they’re with. There are women who wish their husbands were more dominant, but none of the women are planning to divorce their man in order to find someone better. They all love their husbands.

  • Charm

    @gudenuf

    I think think this plays into hypergamy as well. Alot of women want men a foot taller than them which is RIDICULOUS considering 95 percent of men are taller than them. They have the pick of the litter. But give a broad options and watch her try to get the best one. Though I think its crap when people say there are zero physical complications from dating with extreme height differences. They exist. Ive seen a few forums where tall men will admit it. I dont get angry when I see a taller man with a really short woman. They cando what they want. I might be taller than 98% of women in the US but ill take the advantages that come with being tall over having a ton of men to choose from. I just want one man. I used to be uncomfortable with my height but now since Im not Ive noticed the benefits of it. Ill continue to capitalize off of it.

  • Lindsay

    Also, I think it’s funny that as rebellious, socially liberal, and “X” as I am, I did make sure to get the career path and the husband search out of the way early. I was all done figuring that out by age 25, and it was a total relief. Alas, some things endure over time while others do not. My husband is better than ever, but my career? Well, let’s just say that’s “up in the air” for now. I’m so glad I didn’t make it the center of my life like some of my buddies in my field. I would regret so, so much more of my past right now than I currently do.

    One guy, who’s turning 40 soon, was totally the “company man,” and he never, ever even tried dating. Women throw themselves at him too. He just doesn’t want to date because he thinks he needs to give work his all, which means 80-90 hr/weeks. It’s not so much he wants to, but that he feels a compulsion to – he’s admitted as much. He loves kids, but often says he “can’t have any” because they “interfere with work.” I often wondered if he’s truly happy, and honestly, sometimes I had my doubts. He takes care of his parents, but they’re elderly and won’t be around forever. And at the end of the day, the career and the company won’t love him back like a spouse or a child would.

    When I worked with him, he’d make a habit of latching onto one or two co-workers at a time, taking them out for dinner and drinks, all totally platonic, and being their new “bestest buddy” for a little while. Then everyone would get bored with it and he’d latch onto someone else. Last I heard, he still does this. It’s his call as to what he wants to do with his life, but how he talks and acts makes me think he’s not 100% happy with his decision to marry the company.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lindsay

      And at the end of the day, the career and the company won’t love him back like a spouse or a child would.

      In my life I’ve left jobs, just like most people. In a couple of instances, I felt like I was indispensable – I had been treated as a superstar. Coming back to visit, even within a couple of weeks, it was clear that most people could not even be bothered to say hi. I had been totally replaced almost immediately. Nothing I had done made a real, lasting impact. Substituting work for personal relationships is bound to result in great unhappiness, YMMV.

  • OffTheCuff

    L: “It’s also not clear how women are totally at fault for hypergamy if men are equally vocal about how turned off they are by women who are taller than/more educated than/have more money than/are as intelligent or smarter than them,”

    Who is? “Indifference to” isn’t the same as “turned off by”, or, more likely, not accepting of a relationship where you’re not valued.

    Equally vocal? Show me a guy a who says “wow, I can’t sleep with her… She’s too smart”

  • Mike M.

    @ Susan

    “Yes. Not to mention that STEM guys are about to be the new black. I’ll be writing more about that in a post on education next week.”

    I hope so. Though women also need to learn to cast their hooks where the game fish are. STEM men aren’t to be found in urban bars.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike M.

      I hope so. Though women also need to learn to cast their hooks where the game fish are. STEM men aren’t to be found in urban bars.

      Tell me where they are, and I’ll tell women!

  • Lindsay

    I’ve heard men say one or more of those attributes were turn-offs often enough that I believe it to be so, though none of them may be to you personally. Though you say “sleep with” in your post, I was not speaking to casual flings, but rather, long-term relationships leading to marriage. I doubt people are extraordinarily picky about having all of their boxes checked or meeting the “perfect person” if they’re having lots of casual sex.

    My larger point is: some people are exceedingly choosy about certain qualities in a mate, others are not, some moderately so, and everywhere in-between – and it’s up to each person to figure out how and/or if they’ll compromise their must-haves. I suppose I get pretty bored by black-or-white generalizations when used to describe behavior.

  • Candide

    STEM guys (read: fellas with stable jobs and decent pay) will become the new black as the economy tanks.

  • Lindsay

    STEM guy + STEM chick – kids = top DINKS

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      STEM guy + STEM chick – kids = top DINKS

      Yes, that’s why advertisers like Honda are promoting that lifestyle.

  • GudEnuf

    Susan: Not to mention that STEM guys are about to be the new black.

    I was about to go on a rant about racism in the SMP, but then I realized you were using an idiom.

  • WarmWoman

    Speaking of hypergamy, I don’t expect a man to necessarily to be more educated or make more money…BUT I would at least like him to be around my level.

    I’ve had men that didn’t go to college or had much lower ambition than I that have been interested in me. I’ve tried dating such men, but something didn’t feel right.

    I think I read somewhere that married couples with similar education tend to work out better.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Charm
    “I think I get it more now, but to be honest, I feel like a lot of hypergamy is wrapped in what is comsidered good or best on a societal level. I know women are driven by the hamster and what not but they are often fueled by the fairy tales they are sold growing up about how they should be treated how the should behave. I think thats the point I dont get.”

    A lot of it is simply what society expects you to do, or says is ok. If a woman believes that she can do better than a guy she’s dating, for whatever reason, she’ll likely leave him. Doesn’t matter how long they’ve been together as long as the pros outweigh the cons. Even if that man makes her perfectly happy except for failing a couple shit tests.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Sassy

    Bring on the corsets and I’ll totally find some friends to joust and sword fight with.

    @ Lyndsay
    “Though you say “sleep with” in your post, I was not speaking to casual flings, but rather, long-term relationships leading to marriage. I doubt people are extraordinarily picky about having all of their boxes checked or meeting the “perfect person” if they’re having lots of casual sex.”

    I would say that this is due to men knowing that any relationships in those situations would be doomed in the long/short term. Even a standard, blue pill man knows that if he has less of an education than a girl, he had better be able to more than make up for it in personality, money, etc.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Sassy…”One thing I realized is that human male hierarchical battles don’t take place in front of women often. It’s usually done in the sole company of other men. There is no way for a woman to tell where a man falls on the ladder easily because the pecking order rituals aren’t performed in front of us like other species. The only example that is the exception to this would be sports”

    Also music…not quite to the same extent since the competition isn’t as direct as in sports, but the performance that establishes the competitive position is visible.

    In more typical career arenas, the competition does indeed often take place in front of some women, but in most cases the man’s prospective romantic partners will not be there among the viewers.

  • Lindsay

    It’s been my experience that socioeconomic class is also important. Folks from vastly different classes have different values, perceptions of money, perceptions of career, political views, values, etc. It can be overcome sometimes, but sometimes it’s too much of a barrier. This may be one reason why wealth tends to stay concentrated among small pockets – like marries like. We like to say America is a classless society, but I don’t necessarily agree that it is.

    WW, I definitely agree with you about the work ethic. Degree is optional for me, so long as the person is intellectually curious. I spend my time outside of HUS reading articles/books/journals/whitepapers about, watching documentaries/series on, and writing about a huge array of subjects, so I tend to gravitate toward those who behave similarly. Autodidacts are highly attractive to me – and doubly so because I’ve never loved learning in a classroom setting, only outside of it, either in the workplace or preferably, self-directed.

  • Wudang

    “Ive read taken in hand. I dont agree with all of it, but dominant energy is attractive. Id like someone to drive my ship for a while. Though Id be there to take over when he needed a break as well. I dont get that need to be dominant all the time. Its exhausting. I have a strong personality and can weather the hell out of a storm but even the strongest person needs a break. Some of the women want their husbands to make all the decisions all the time. Thats tiresome as well as burdensome. Its like leading a dig around with a damn stick. I dont get that type of dynamic but if the couple likes it, more power to them.”

    I wholeheartedly agree. I am fine with leading and being dominant most of the time but I would very much like her to be able to step in every now and then without it being the end of the world.

  • WarmWoman

    Lindsay-Thanks and the desire to marry someone at a similar intellectual level isn’t meant to be snobby. In the past, I’ve found it hard when one person is goal-oriented and values education, while the other person doesn’t.

  • Lindsay

    @WW – Absolutely, and I didn’t think you were being snobby at all. I was picking up what you were putting down. :-)

  • Rum

    A hard core player would be un-fased by a womans supremacy of job status or income over his. If she is hot enough and will put out without too much delay the sex could happen on time.. It would not even matter if she was older, up to a point, of course. If she is hot enough at the time and puts out enough there is only one thing left that would matter to him; that she not cause any trouble or try to chase after him when the time for leaving comes. Excuse the harshness.
    The only kind of guys that will see things differently going into the future will be: 1. The always clueless ones, 2. The clued in ones who still feel the need to marry something, for their own reasons.
    I am not bitter but I can tell you pretty accurately where the source of bitterness in the manosphere comes from. A little bit comes from the betrayal your mother committed when she lied to you almost from birth about what really works with women(whom she understands perfectdly, yes!, YES!!!!)
    But way, way, worse than that is how God himself betrayed us. He, of all persons, should know the score; the real score about the male/female thing. And yet his representatives on earth lied like rugs as well and did great harm to the lives of young men most eager to DO THE RIGHT THING,; little knowing that GOD actually hates earnest, well intentioned men almost as much as HE hates fat girls.
    I have not had a problem getting my (1%) dick constantly wet. All of them are married. None of them are married. So I guess I will avoid bittnerness.

  • WarmWoman

    I meant that my own inner critic was calling myself snobby, and others have said “Give the guy a chance.” :)

    If men get to have a preference on how their female partner looks and what her sexual history is, I don’t see anything wrong with women placing importance on education/occupation. :P

  • ZoinksSK

    I don’t necessarily want to pile up on women with hypergamous tendencies (people can try – successfully or not – to find happiness as they wish), but one additional obstacle such women may encounter seems to be a deep ambivalence between their hypergamous preferences and their egalitarian tendencies. A friend of mine is a case in point. We actually dated for a time, ten years ago, but she wasn’t my type and I unfortunately wasn’t up to snuff by her standards (although probably would be now that we are both in our thirties and she is still single).
    From her comments and reactions to various things, it’s clear that she is stubbornly hypergamous. But she is also intensely competitive, stingy with her praise and admiration for others, and a real stickler for egality/fairness (more the kind to keep a day-by-day tally than simply want things to even out for everybody over time). I should add that she has many redeeming qualities. In fact, I suspect that her problems with finding a suitable mate derive less from unrealistic expectations (though there’s that too), than from the fact that she seems to deeply need someone she can both dominate and look up to at the same time. Good luck with that… *sigh*.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ZoinksSK

      Welcome, thanks for commenting.

      I suspect that her problems with finding a suitable mate derive less from unrealistic expectations (though there’s that too), than from the fact that she seems to deeply need someone she can both dominate and look up to at the same time. Good luck with that… *sigh*.

      Yeah, she sounds like she’ll be calling herself a “onelie” at some future point.

  • Ysabelle
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ysabelle

      That is an interesting article, confirming that marriage is becoming a luxury for the educated UMC.

  • Brendan

    The thing to remember about Coontz is that she is intensely political in her motives. That is, she is a “shill” for marriage 2.0, praising it as “hedonic marriage” and saying that it epitomizes “how love conquered marriage” and so on. So she has a rooting interest.

    In light of that, one can easily understand her dismay with the current SMP for everyone outside the UMC set. She is basically trying to chide women into abandoning their hypergamy in favor of having nice helpmeet male mates (basically a male wife, really), because, above all, marriage 2.0 MUST succeed, because she is deeply invested in its success, and in the idea that it is the “evolved” model of marriage. So when one reads/listens to Coontz, one needs to realize that virtually everything she says on this topic has a very specific political aim: to support marriage 2.0 and reject any criticisms of it. And if women have to be talked out of hypergamy to do so (as if this is possible for a largely non-intentional process of attraction anyway), then, why, that’s what she’ll do.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Brendan

      It seems pretty clear that Coontz has been upstaged. I wondered if James Taranto has been reading Roissy. Her views, shared by many, won’t be discredited overnight, but I see a distinct erosion happening, and the views replacing hers are driven by evo psych academics, and possibly even Game bloggers.

  • Just1X

    @Rum #56

    yeah about “the lies”, the number of guys that I have heard make that comment just after finding game is amazing (I did the same). Then comes the “yuck, they really think like that? that’s horrible”, then finally “ok, NOW I know how they really work and I know a little game…I can do this” (and with this comes a return towards ‘women are people too’ attitudes). Game does not have to mean PUA / dark triad, just a way of treating women that they react more positively to.

    Please don’t anyone try and tell me that women don’t manipulate men (mentally, make-up, clothes, whoops pregnancies etc). Game is just men getting a little payback, and hey women look good when dressed up (not all manipulation is bad).

    Just in case I need to re-state it – I have always believed NAWALT.

    I’m not sure that I’d say Mums do it (programme their boys with lies) deliberately, it appears to be one of the hamsterisations of “it ought to work like that, so it does work like that”. IMHO men are more reality based, except that they are misled on what reality is in some areas.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m not sure that I’d say Mums do it (programme their boys with lies) deliberately

      Of course we don’t. Nor do fathers fail to step up with the truth deliberately. We’ve all been programmed to some degree. Women have to swallow the red pill too.

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    “Haha, I knew that would be red meat for the guys, I couldn’t resist including it. Honestly, it’s just sexism and bigotry. Why does the New York Times publish that crap?”

    I know and I appreciate that as I was laughing as a reacted to that delausional claptrap.

    The Daily Mail does the same thing in the UK. It is why it is also known as ‘the hate-mail’, ‘the daily hate’. You can buy t-shirts with a logo something like “The Daily Mail – it’s like spending time in a mental hospital”

    Have you not noticed how many quotes from UK papers are from the ‘mail’?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “The Daily Mail – it’s like spending time in a mental hospital”

      That’s hilarious! Hmmm, maybe I’ll make my own version of that.

  • Just1X

    “STEM will be the new black”?

    like it as a concept, but:
    * for every STEM guy running his own company (the apex guys that you are thinking of) there are tens / hundreds of cubical workers.
    * too late! mantra “I’m not bitter about this, I am not bitter about this…”
    * STEMs have a bad time learning game initially “Can’t I just find a sane woman, they must be out there?”. Viewing game as self-programming to adapt their user-interface to alien hardware might mean they “get” game in the end.
    * by the time women have decided that it’s time to settle down, STEMs are the ones that have probably found a way of life that makes them hard to find (should any woman really try to find them). I suspect that STEMS make the easiest MGTOW transition; determine reality -> adopt a way of dealing with it that works for you.

    But hey – please make STEM the new black. It might even turn our economies around and get us geeks laid while we’re still young (pre- Red Pill).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      STEM guys aren’t going to become magically attractive by virtue of their profession. But their chosen fields are going to dominate the economy, probably forever. There will be more status to go around, and some percentage of STEM guys will benefit. They’ll be highly paid and highly employable. And the sociosexual ratio is going to favor them heavily in the next two generations. All in all, it’s going to be a massive net gain for STEM.

  • Emily

    >> “For men, it’s all about finding their niche and targeting women who value that niche.”

    I think this is true for women as well.

    My “niche” tends to be geek guys, which is a great niche to have since guy girls outnumber girl geeks.

    Between relationships I tend to bide my time so I can get the cutest geek possible (I don’t consciously think of it in those terms at the time, but if you analyse my behaviour after the fact, that’s basically what I do). So I guess I’m hypergamous in that sense. But I think that my hypergamy is at a reasonable level since I’m able to find guys to date, and once I am in a relationship I honestly don’t feel the desire/need to trade up. IMO hypergamy itself isn’t all bad. I think hypergamy is only a problem when it’s at an unreasonable level and when girls either start to want what they can’t have (and admittedly a lot of girls have this problem), or when girls break up a stable relationship and end up hurting people in order to “trade up” (which happens less often, but some girls are like this). Everything in moderation.

  • Emily

    “Though women also need to learn to cast their hooks where the game fish are. STEM men aren’t to be found in urban bars.”

    So where ARE the game fish? :P I found my STEM guy through my social circle, but I’ll be the first to admit that I got extremely lucky.

  • FeralEmployee

    @Emily

    STEM guys are more likely to be introverted, meaning they lock themselves up to a higher degree. The best place to look is indeed your social circle. There’s always a chance they’re “plugged in” somewhere. To encounter one in public might be hard, all depends on the desire to show him-/herself in public. Buying an item in a general store (I order most on the internet) is like a covert operation. I hardly browse, I know what I want, and will not allow interference a lot of times.

    Other than that, you ought to look for specific interests. I tend to leave my shell for talks and public events closely related to my interests. Such opportunities might allow you to “fine-tune” a STEM guy to what you’re interested in. Do mind we come for the content, not to socialize in general. I can only speak for the rather introverted types.

    Libraries, any place you find trustworthy knowledge and that isn’t too crowded.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Libraries, any place you find trustworthy knowledge and that isn’t too crowded.

      I go to work at the library sometimes, and even in the middle of the day I see cute guys on laptops. I honestly think girls should start running Library Game.

  • Lindsay

    Engineers Explained: http://tinyurl.com/8jask

    From a Top 10 engineering school, CMU. Many qualities, I can dig – or have myself. How about you?

  • Just1X

    @Lindsay, nice link (a lot of bordering on reality there)

    Particularly grateful for;
    “Male engineers reach their peak of sexual attractiveness later than normal men, becoming irresistible erotic dynamos in their mid thirties to late forties.”

  • Just1X

    “I believe that the manosphere-perpetrated idea of women constantly angling to trade up is inaccurate.”

    maybe, it is hard to find balance.

    But then there’s EPL divorce fantasy – they wouldn’t spend money marketing it if it didn’t work on some women. Though I’m sure that men who trade in ‘their old bag’ for a newer model exist too. Not gonna get into a statistics battle on comparing numbers, but EPL gets talked about more than trade-ins (could be just the circles I pass in)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      I think EPL is more common than trade-ins. In that post I wrote I figured up to half of all divorces among the educated. But I’m not sure that’s hypergamy in action – more a sense of entitlement, unrealistic expectations, etc. I imagine that very hypergamous women are more likely to divorce for infidelity (their own). Not sure, though – as we learned, there’s little data on this.

  • Just1X
  • Fingenieur

    @Susan:
    “Tell me where they are, and I’ll tell women!”

    Ha! Ever heard of engineering schools and engineering companies? Though they are hard to game and will end up in harassment lawsuits :(

    I guess it’s pretty hard to encounter flocks of nerds. Sure, we have our professional gatherings (my professional-club meets every wednesday because we are pretty sure we’re the sole patrons of our joint that day) and our class and friends gather around in weekends to taste the new brews either at our places or in a sufficiently equipped bar.

    Pretty much everything in our culture, media and consumption today is powered by and created for geeks of some sort. So there are music nerds, computer nerds, art-geeks, fencers, cigar aficionados etc. A lot of DJ’s (and other folk “on the helm” of stuff) have engineering backgrounds and day-jobs. And they hang around with similar people. Think of the one place in the night-club, where you don’t have to socialize to prove yourself, to approach tons of women and where you can do your thing and enjoy watching people have good time?

    But being the over-rationalizing, dull and shy creature he often is, engineers can be quite hard to game. I have never seen a woman approach a flock of guys drinking fine beers in a corner table? Guys who have to work the next day…

    I’ve been thinking, that a new kind of arbiter-procedure would suit most introverted (not antisocial) people way better than the peacocking contest of hookup. Probably every engineer today knows three or four decent guys, who just don’t fit or like the hookup scene that well. Asking reliable people for recommendations also cuts off some risk involved with blind dating.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…”if a man’s status erodes significantly during a marriage, or is dwarfed by her extreme rise in status, then the match becomes unstable”

    In a troubled economy, a very high % of men are going to suffer the status decline that comes with unemployment or with having to accept a lower-valued job. Even in a good economy, it is very rare that anyone–at any economic level–will make it through an entire career without a major status setback at some point, from which they may or may not recover later. Heck, even Steve Jobs was once thrown out of his own company.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    “But then there’s EPL divorce fantasy – they wouldn’t spend money marketing it if it didn’t work on some women. Though I’m sure that men who trade in ‘their old bag’ for a newer model exist too.”

    Yes, but one is praised in the media as “authentic” and “following your heart” while the other is seen as vile and superficial. Look at how the men in First Wive’s Club were portrayed. And that was a comedy!

    Could you imagine a male movie version of EPL? What would it be called? FFF? :D

  • Just1X

    Re STEM is the new black.

    I’m not sure about this. As technology improves it enables creative people. Who cares who wrote the word-processor and runs the database behind the website? It’s the guys/gals that write the good books/articles that win (and I don’t begrudge them that).

    I love my kindle, but I only have one because I’m a big reader (if I’m not spending too much time on the web). I’m glad that there’re writers out there that are enabled by it being cheap to publish content – works for me as a consumer because the high printing costs and the middlemen are reduced.

    As a softie (sw eng.) I am creative, but within certain bounds. I have no drive to set up a blog as I would have little to say (stop laughing). I am an enabler, not a cash-in-er.

    So a big believer in “STEM is the new black”? no not really. But a recognition of the skills of STEMs would be nice for us. Everyone here will have been touched by stuff I have done (wherever you are on the planet), but not in a big way (if I hadn’t written that stuff someone else would have done).

    Not all STEMs get to globally destroy privacy on a massive scale by designing my-face / bi-oogle. Or destroy morality by creating celebutard culture.

  • Just1X

    “Look at how the men in First Wive’s Club were portrayed”

    I refused to watch it, then laughed my arse off when other men who did (with their gfs) said it was poisonous chick-flick shite…

    REEAALLY? You don’t say!!

  • Rum

    Unchecked hypergamy is a vastly bigger threat to a relationship than the male form of waywardness for one simple, harsh reason. A womans sexual instincts are a form of “monogamous” because she only really wants one man at any given time. If she gets turned on by a new man she will thereafter not want her relationship-guy much at all sexually. And there is not much anyone can do about it.

  • A.

    “I just want to marry equal, not up. I’d take a guy that makes 50k a year at a stable job over one that made twice that with a flashier title. I guess thats because I dont really identify with hypergamy.”

    You sure you don’t identify with it? 75% of the US makes less than $50K per year, individually.

    Source:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States#Income_distribution

  • ozymandias

    STEM is a really bad classification for dating. In my experience science-math people and technology-engineering people are very different. Science-math people are more similar to artists, writers, and miscellaneous non-social-justice-y humanities folk, and can best be described by this:

    Writers are really passionate. About writing. Not necessarily about you. Are you writing?

    So we don’t really make ideal partners, except for each other, because we all fully understand that “sorry I missed Valentine’s Day, the lab was busy” is perfectly reasonable. :) Engineering-technology people, however, in my experience tend to not only have rather more conventional success (since, in my experience, most of us obsessive types prioritize continuing to do what we love over money), but also to be more “normal person, perhaps with poorer social skills” as opposed to “obsessive loser with no life.”

    I do not understand why women always want to date men who are taller than them. I’ve dated men shorter than me and it has had no effect on my romantic life one way or the other; the relationships with shorter dudes are no more or less happy than those with taller dudes.

    I remain skeptical of the existence of hypergamy. I’m attracted to people who are smarter than average, sure, and who are more passionate/knowledgeable about their interests. (I am also attracted to people with poorer social skills than average, so I think it balances out.) I mean, I have a literal physical shiver when someone tells me about cryptography or con artistry or the history of video game plotlines. But if someone is like “I know about cryptography AND con artistry AND video game plotlines,” I am not going to be all “I am now attracted to you and unattracted to my current partners!” I’m gonna be like “hey, cool, I’m also attracted to you.”

  • ozymandias

    And I would have no problem dating someone with an income under $25,000 and remain puzzled that other people would have problems with it.

  • lovelost

    @Just1X #65
    I suspect that STEMS make the easiest MGTOW transition; determine reality -> adopt a way of dealing with it that works for you.

    That’s true atleast from my end, it is more of a natural transition for STEM beta guy to go the MGTOW route, i am certainly on that route, however to say I just started is wrong, you will know what I am saying after you read this, if you haven’t http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2012/02/mgtow-vs-wgtow.html

  • lovelost

    @Lindsay #69
    regarding your engineer explained link,

    “How can I escape this situation while retaining the greatest amount of cash?”

    Something women can learn from STEM beta guys, before going on a shopping spree.

  • lovelost

    @Sasan #76
    Tell me where they are, and I’ll tell women!

    Well in Science museums, science reading book club (check meetup.com for local listing), science fair in your city.

    If you’re STEM chick, the annual conference which you attend, is flooded with guys, but I will say this it is kind of unprofessional to hit on a guy, but anyhow, discretion is yours.

    College library, that’s no brainer, except not in the history section.

  • lovelost

    STEM guy + STEM chick – kids = top DINKS

    that’s very true, most likely they also have a condo, and take regular vacation (travel the world). wine and good sex too. :)

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    STEM men aren’t to be found in urban bars.

    Tell me where they are, and I’ll tell women!

    Found mine in a video game.

    Most, if not all, nerdy guys play video games these days. I have a single coworker who likes Diablo. I know people who prefer strategy games like Civilization or Starcraft. I know a couple that met playing Battlefield. I also know couples that met in WoW like us.

    In the various MMORPGs I’ve played, I’ve met tons of people in IT, software, engineering, mountains of male college students, and a lot of just “normal” people. I also meet quite a lot of ex-military men who are either going back to school on the GI bill or on a military pension not doing much due to the economy.

    I’ve also met plenty of females playing video games. Funny though, most of the time they’re never single. :P

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Could you imagine a male movie version of EPL? What would it be called?
    I had been toying with the idea of writing a script with gender reverse eat pray and love. The problem is the threshold for spousal desertion is harder on guys that on girls. A man only has to be boring, unambitious and unsexy and everyone will understand the woman cheating or walking out, that is Hollywood movie standards BTW this is not about YOU, whoever is taking it personally. While for the woman be left by the man she really needs to be portrayed as the evil incarnated. Hard to do I think nothing better than Akivasha the female demon in Krull the conqueror would achieve similar effect, YMMV.

    I remain skeptical of the existence of hypergamy.

    I remain skeptical of the existence of the existence of single people. I’m married so everyone else most be too. We should talk about cooking up smart for our spouses and not unexistant things. ;)

  • ozymandias

    Anacaona: Well, if someone was going about saying “women are single” saying “but I’m married!” is a reasonable response. :P

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Well, if someone was going about saying “women are single” saying “but I’m married!” is a reasonable response.

    No people is saying that heterosexual women are hypergamic. Are you hetero? Is hetero majority or minority? Can you accept that most men here are not interested in what non-hetero women are attracted to or not?

  • Just1X

    @lovelost #96

    MGTOW is one option, but so is picking up a little game (I don’t mean to PUA level necessarily). Game gives you confidence in dealing with all kinds of people, so even if you decide to GYOW, it’s not like you’ve lost anything.

    Take a look at Roissy (Chateau Heartiste is the new name for the same place; http://heartiste.wordpress.com/ including the ‘Pages’ panel on the right). Take what lessons you like from it, leave the ones that you don’t want. If you weave your own way through the ‘knowledge’ you should find some stuff to make you go hmmmm. Strangely enough, when you come out the other end of the red-pill process (which is bitter), you might find women more understandable. Much of the STEM-stress is trying to reconcile the crap you were brought up with, with what you see around you (and how you are treated when you are a nice guy). Red pills are bitter, but you can understand the world better because you see it as it actually is. You can make a better informed choice how you want to deal with it. MGTOW is an option you might consider at that point YMMV

    No need to make GYOW a lifelong commitment, just don’t bother chasing women for a as long as you don’t want one. Go find something better to do. YOUR Own Way is yours to define, make it up as you go along.

    I have female friends that I like as friends just fine. Marry one again? Hell NO(!) but again YMMV (but check out some divorce info because marriage is a hell of a risk for the man with no defined benefits that I can identify – making her happy is a stoopid reason to get married, maybe you can find better ones).

    Hope that gave you something to think about, I’m off to watch a movie now, so good night from me.

    p.s. love Cappy Cap, he never really struck me as an MGTOW until that post, I just enjoyed his other stuff (including his new toy)

  • Just1X

    “Can you accept that most men here are not interested in what non-hetero women are attracted to or not?”

    Anacons is correct;

    no, I’m not (it isn’t that kind of movie). I have enough problems understanding the hetero women.

  • Just1X

    @lovelost

    couple of good comments in the Politics thread #539 & 540

    def. signing off now

  • anonymous

    Susan: “Ysabelle
    That is an interesting article, confirming that marriage is becoming a luxury for the educated UMC.”
    —————————
    THAT is EXACTLY what I posted before.

    There’s a clear delineation between the UMC and the from middle-middle class on down.
    The middle-middle class is imitating the trends of the lower classes and I think the affect on society is going to be a continuous downward spiral.

    Whenever I read these boards with people thinking that something NEW has been invented or NEVER seen before events are taking place;
    – women becoming the heads of households
    (whether by working 2-3 jobs or getting gov’t assistance)
    – children born OOW, a decline in marriage
    (through cohabitation, sperm donor, single parent by choice)
    – joblessness among men (in/voluntarily)
    (whether high school drop out, criminal record, high unemployment rate, videogaming in parent’s basement)
    – men learning game in order to become players, promiscuous women
    (even when there are no fathers present, the mothers and the environment teach men to be cads)
    – no religious institution, no social pressure to “do things the right way”

    I think to myself – these people on these boards have had the privilege/disadvantage of not observing the ghettos up close and personal.
    Continuing down that path isn’t going to improve things AT ALL. We’re on a downward spiral. period.
    It doesn’t matter that individuals’ strategy is to protect themselves in this climate. Because it’s happening on a massive scale, the SMP and other areas of our society are deteriorating quickly.
    It’s so sad.
    The UMC = the haves
    everyone else = the have nots
    I’m thinking when it becomes completely unsustainable, the UMC will secede and the rest will become a underdeveloped nation. I just don’t see how it can be turned around (and I’m an optimist)

    A snippet from the article ysabelle posted:
    >Once largely limited to poor women and minorities, motherhood without marriage has settled deeply into middle America. The fastest growth in the last two decades has occurred among white women in their 20s who have some college education but no four-year degree, according to Child Trends, a Washington research group that analyzed government data.

    Among mothers of all ages, a majority — 59 percent in 2009 — are married when they have children. But the surge of births outside marriage among younger women — nearly two-thirds of children in the United States are born to mothers under 30 — is both a symbol of the transforming family and a hint of coming generational change.

    One group still largely resists the trend: college graduates, who overwhelmingly marry before having children. That is turning family structure into a new class divide, with the economic and social rewards of marriage increasingly reserved for people with the most education. <

  • Jon

    I made the mistake of following the link to the NYT article…

    Dominique Browning may be qualified to speak for women like her, but she shouldn’t presume to speak for all men. I almost threw up when I got the part about fish, bicycles and water.

    As far as the education gap goes, the ratio of black women with college degrees to black men is already 2:1, and black women are the most unmarried group in the U.S. That should give you an idea of what to expect from the population as a whole when educated women greatly outnumber educated men.

    The most desirable men will be in a position with many perceived options and less incentive to commit while women will either be competing for them, marrying down or staying single.

    If guys are smart, then they’ll recognize the opportunity and hit the books, but as an educated man I selfishly welcome the trend (the male form of intrasexual competition). :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jon

      If guys are smart, then they’ll recognize the opportunity and hit the books, but as an educated man I selfishly welcome the trend (the male form of intrasexual competition).

      That’s understandable! I hope you clean up. In a perhaps perverse way, I look forward to the scramble, because it’s the only way women are going to wake up to what feminism has wrought.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I’m thinking when it becomes completely unsustainable, the UMC will secede and the rest will become a underdeveloped nation. I just don’t see how it can be turned around (and I’m an optimist)

    This has been expressed before but there is historical precedent of a first world nation rapidly turning into a third world one?

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    “the UMC will secede and the rest will become a underdeveloped nation”

    A separate UMC nation would be a nation without car mechanics, without electricians or gas-pipeline repairmen or paramedics, without truck drivers or railroad workers or farmers or food-warehouse workers or grocery store shelf-stockers.

    I’m getting hungry and cold just thinking about it!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      I’m getting hungry and cold just thinking about it!

      That cracked me up. However, I would like to say right now that I am more than willing to go work as a barista or Whole Foods cashier, two careers that have always appealed to me.

  • http://dicipres.wordpress.com Dicipres
  • Brendan

    This has been expressed before but there is historical precedent of a first world nation rapidly turning into a third world one?

    In modern history the main example is Argentina. In the 19-teens, Argentina was in the top 10 globally in per capita GDP. Now, Argentina is around 50, right around Russia, Botswana and Lithuania (and this was also the case before the disaster with the currency ten years ago … the decline started in the 1930s). So, it can happen.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    “historical precedent of a first world nation rapidly turning into a third world one?”…Greece seems to be on-track to provide an example that will be studied in history books for a long time. Their GDP per capita hit about $30K in 2005…perhaps not quite first-world (for comparison, France that year was $45K), but not terrible…it is now hard to see any good outcome from what is going on there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Re Greece:

      it is now hard to see any good outcome from what is going on there.

      I heard someone say yesterday that Greece manufactures nothing. Not one. Single. Thing. The entire economy depends on tourism and the export of olive oil. I don’t know if this is true. Thomas Friedman has said that Israel is the only country in the Middle East capable of manufacturing a light bulb, but they have oil. I don’t think olive oil is quite as lucrative as crude.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    In modern history the main example is Argentina. In the 19-teens, Argentina was in the top 10 globally in per capita GDP. Now, Argentina is around 50, right around Russia, Botswana and Lithuania (and this was also the case before the disaster with the currency ten years ago … the decline started in the 1930s). So, it can happen.

    Interesting. Any knows the factors? Economic or social?

  • Brendan

    My understanding is that in Argentina’s case it was political instability that created economic problems due to inconsistent policies see-sawing each other. Obviously different than what is being discussed here, but I think still instructive in terms of it being quite possible, even in modern times, to fall from being one of the most well off countries to being in the middle of the pacjk (Argentina, for all of its economic troubles, isn’t a third world country, of course).

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    (Argentina, for all of its economic troubles, isn’t a third world country, of course).

    True I will guess that even if USA falls from grace it will never be Haiti. And probably some social groups will retain a lot of the first world privileges. I do wonder who though, the college educated so far had been keeping certain level of cohesion but then who is to say that the trend will not, eventually reach them too.
    Thanks for the answer.

  • anonymous

    Anacaona
    “This has been expressed before but there is historical precedent of a first world nation rapidly turning into a third world one?”

    I dunno,
    has there ever been a period in history where people from the middle and top actively and deliberately worked their way DOWN the socioeconomic ladder?
    simultaneously
    where opportunities for upward social/economic mobility are limited?

    How is where we’re heading sustainable?
    Look at where our economy is.

  • Lindsay

    @lovelost:

    @Lindsay #69
    regarding your engineer explained link,

    “How can I escape this situation while retaining the greatest amount of cash?”

    Something women can learn from STEM beta guys, before going on a shopping spree.

    Or from me – I’m the queen of bargains, deals, and “just not buying it.” No seriously. I maximize efficiency in all areas of life. Not word choice on the Internet – yet – but working on that.

    Interestingly, there are a lot of married women who are getting into the “simple living” movement and frown upon shopping sprees and such. I meet them all the time on my other boards, in my neighborhood, etc.. I think shopping sprees, like many other indulgences, are now a relic of a bygone era.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lindsay

      I think shopping sprees, like many other indulgences, are now a relic of a bygone era.

      I hope you’re right. I have become more frugal with age, which is odd, because I’ve accumulated some assets with age. I do not enjoy shopping, and do most of it online. I have very few indulgences – my hair is one, and I am a crafty sort of person, so I spend whatever I want on supplies. I do tend to indulge my kids with little surprises. But the concept of “retail therapy” is a dangerous one. I prefer “long walk therapy.”

  • Wudang

    “Could you imagine a male movie version of EPL? What would it be called?
    I had been toying with the idea of writing a script with gender reverse eat pray and love. The problem is the threshold for spousal desertion is harder on guys that on girls. A man only has to be boring, unambitious and unsexy and everyone will understand the woman cheating or walking out, that is Hollywood movie standards BTW this is not about YOU, whoever is taking it personally. While for the woman be left by the man she really needs to be portrayed as the evil incarnated. Hard to do I think nothing better than Akivasha the female demon in Krull the conqueror would achieve similar effect, YMMV.”

    It would be interesting to look more in depth at how men divorcing their wives are perceived in MSM and in online commentary and compare that to how women divorcing their husbands are recieved.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It would be interesting to look more in depth at how men divorcing their wives are perceived in MSM and in online commentary and compare that to how women divorcing their husbands are recieved.

      That’s easy. The men are vilified, and the women are championed by Oprah.

  • Wudang

    “Could you imagine a male movie version of EPL? What would it be called”

    Maybe something along the lines of going n a journey to rediscover his masculinity after living life as a pussywhipped AFC.

  • Lindsay

    Watch Kramer vs. Kramer with Dustin Hoffman and Meryl Streep if you want a divorce movie from the POV of a male protagonist.

    It’s a good movie. Very realistic portrayal of custody issues in the late 70s IMO.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lindsay

      I love Kramer vs. Kramer. That is a great movie. I love the juxtaposition of the early scene when Ted has no idea how to make breakfast, and the later scene when he has it down.

  • ozymandias

    If we make a male version of Eat Pray Love, can we make it treat non-white people as actual people as opposed to tools for the author’s enlightenment, and have at least some acknowledgement that there are people in the world who make less than a hundred thousand dollars a year? Because, seriously, that EPL lady is such a self-absorbed, self-centered, privileged twit.

    Anacaona: I haven’t really seen behavior that could be reasonably described as hypergamy on the part of the straight people I know either. (And I end up listening to a LOT of people’s romantic drama.) And FWIW the man I know who gets laid the most is an overweight, constantly broke comic book nerd feminist who regards PUAs as having a completely inaccurate view of how gender works and hence probably does not have “game.” (In the interests of full disclosure, he is tall, smart and snarky.) I have a hard time fitting that in hypergamy theory.

  • anonymous

    ozy: “FWIW the man I know who gets laid the most is an overweight, constantly broke comic book nerd feminist who regards PUAs as having a completely inaccurate view of how gender works and hence probably does not have “game.” (In the interests of full disclosure, he is tall, smart and snarky.)”

    Overweight but tall, smart, snarky, snarky- actually sounds like he has natural game.

  • Lindsay

    @ozymandias

    I haven’t observed hypergamy at work among many straight people I know either. My personal feeling is that this behavior presents very strongly in some, not at all in others, and everywhere in-between – and a variety of factors play a role in determining whether and how it presents. I don’t believe it’s a black-or-white, either-or phenomenon. The area of the Midwest where I live is quite economically depressed, and like tends to marry like here, with many examples of women being taller, more well-off than, better looking, better educated than, etc., husbands/fiancees. Perhaps owning to the perpetually depressed economy, my peers are more interested in marriage and starting a family as quickly as they can, rather than holding out for superlative traits. The Kate Bollick article that Susan was quoted in would not be understood here – it would instead be scoffed at.

    It was much more common for women to “marry up” financially in the small towns where I grew up (I now live in a small/mid-sized city), but the social dynamic was such in those towns that women did not work.

    If we wind up in a major East Coast city for work, which is increasingly looking likely, I’ll be interested to see if the social dynamic is different. I’ve always lived in rural/semi-rural towns or depressed flyover cities, so I only know what I’ve experienced so far.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I haven’t observed hypergamy at work among many straight people I know either. My personal feeling is that this behavior presents very strongly in some, not at all in others, and everywhere in-between – and a variety of factors play a role in determining whether and how it presents. I don’t believe it’s a black-or-white, either-or phenomenon.

      Right. Not binary, but rather, on a spectrum.

  • Lindsay

    *owing, not “owning”

  • Lindsay

    Re: America’s secession and decline:

    This is cited as a doomsday scenario – or even fantasy – by plenty of people, but I just don’t see it happening, at least not for a while, anyway. In all likelihood, the theoretical succession would occur along red-state/blue state lines, which would be a disaster for everyone. The majority of wealth is concentrated in cities, especially the coastal cities, and the majority of the nation’s resources is concentrated in rural areas. We all rely on those interdependencies to survive, and so does the national economy.

    I see America as closer to Japan, an economic superpower, but one with a shrinking working-age population and very sluggish growth. The 2000s here were similar to Japan’s “Lost Decade,” and the 2010s may show, on average, slow growth, up to 2% on average, at best. Accordingly, we’ll start to see social phenomena increasingly mirroring Japan’s – we’re already on our way. The UMC, comprised of “salarymen/women”, will take on more and more work, and face worsening physical and mental health as a result of the burdens. As healthcare costs rise and the doctor shortage becomes more dire with Baby Boomers reaching their elder years, fewer and fewer salarymen/women will have the time or access to treatment for depression, cardiac health issues, etc.

    Youth unemployment will continue to rise. Freeters (young adults under 30 who can only find PT/freelance work), hikikomori (reclusive, depressed young adults, especially males), and “parasite singles” (young adults who live with their parents after completing college) will shoot up in number. Meanwhile, the federal government’s habit of presenting reports telling the rosy story of an economy “bouncing back” will continue apace, as real unemployment – including discouraged and underemployed workers, which the gov’t doesn’t count – hovers around 20%.

    What do you all think?

  • ozymandias

    Lindsay: It’s possible we’re both in low-hypergamy subcultures. I tend to hang out in the poly-kinky-queer and the gamer subcommunities of nerds; it’s possible that gamers, poly-kinky-queer types, and flyover country people are all prone to less hypergamy. (Also the low-hypergamy people seem massively to outnumber the high-hypergamy people.)

    Your description sounds like the economy I’m seeing. I know quite a few semi-hikikos (they still attend class and get food, but don’t leave their rooms otherwise), a shitload of freeters and the occasional parasite single (although for obvious reasons fewer of those, since I’m at college). I figure we’re going to have a long depression.

    Anonymous: From what I’ve read of game, most of the snark involved seems to be snark at one’s target. He only occasionally snarks at friends, and generally in a gender-neutral, friendly, bantering way; he saves most of his snark for misogynists, Republicans, libertarians, and Rob Liefield. Also, from what he’s told me, most of his seduction techniques seem to relate to listening, complimenting people, remembering details about people’s lives, owning really nice jackets, and putting a priority on getting laid.

  • VD

    What do you all think?

    The US collapse will be faster and more catastrophic when it happens than the two lost decades that the Japanese experienced after the Heisei bubble burst. This is because our cumulative debt level is higher – not government debt alone, in which case Japan is worse off – and our society is considerably less cohesive. Your scenario expects things to basically continue on the same trajectory as they have since 2008, (which puts you ahead of about 95 percent of the mainstream economists who keep seeing nonexistent green shoots promising spring), but that’s not going to happen due to the increasing fragility of the equity and property markets. About 40 percent of current bank assets are already nonexistent and once they’re forced to book those asset losses, the entire system will melt down.

    The idea was that the banks would paper over the holes in their balance sheets with the Fed’s help until market prices started rising and they could make their losses good retroactively, but that hasn’t happened and won’t happen. Now the Nasdaq is hanging by a single stock – Apple – and with Greece rumored to default on or before March 23rd, things could get tricky much quicker than most people imagine. I didn’t bother doing my annual economic predictions this year because the range of possible events is simply too great.

  • Mike M.

    @69 Lindsay: Those are quotes from Scott Adams, author of the Dilbert cartoons. More truth than poetry.

    @76 Susan: Let me go into detail…

    First, you find areas with major STEM employers. An example would be St. Mary’s Co, MD. Population 100,000. One fifth of whom are employed directly by the Naval Air Systems Command. That means STEM professionals with an average income around $90K/year. Those of us with military backgrounds call this a Target-Rich Environment.

    Libraries are OK, but I’d be looking more into participant sports. I consider fencing the best in this regard. Martial enough to attract men, non-contact enough to allow a woman to be fully competitive, and social enough to allow people to meet. Other martial sports are OK, too. Anything from karate to shooting. Bonus points for exotic. The usual belt-mill dojo/day care is OK, but a school catering to adults is a better bet. Ignore the guys blasting away at a target five yards away with Glocks – check out the man on the other end of the firing line shooting one-handed at a target 50 yards away. Wait for him to finish, then ask for pointers.

    Also consider unusual cultural activities. Celtic societies, if you can claim ever the most obscure link. Nobody will check. If you’re college age, try the Society for Creative Anachronism. STEM guys tend toward the eccentric.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike M.

      Thanks, those are awesome suggestions. I’ve saved them, and will be sharing them with young women I know! Funny you should mention Celtic societies. My husband and I share a love of British trad and Celtic music. And some of our best friends met at a Ceili.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I didn’t bother doing my annual economic predictions this year because the range of possible events is simply too great.

    So economy is like weather now? Maybe that would be the name of our age in the future. The age of chaos.

  • Anna

    @ Susan,
    Greece has quite a good shipping industry and until the financial crisis, they were doing very well. Their main problem is their culture. They’ve always been quite different to the rest of Southern Europe. (Which is why you’ll see that the majority of (sane) European women would never date a Greek man :D French, great. Italian, maybe. Greek, NO). They have no moral backbone, the country is completely corrupt, they don’t pay taxes, they have no clue about social economy or how the system works, each citizen is 100% selfish and unable to see the big picture. They will choose the easiest way out, always. They are the exact opposite of Germans – and keep in mind, the Germans have no particular strength in terms of natural resources, they just happen to be a very hard-working people.

  • SayWhaat

    This is unrelated to the post, but I’ve finally gotten feedback from a guy I used to date and I’d like to share it with you all.

    Some time ago, I dated this guy named John. He was a 24yo guy who’d had one serious relationship that was shitty (gf cheated on him) that had ended a while before our dating. I had the same story with him that I’ve had with all guys; met on OKC, went on a furious pace of dates (pace dictated by him) in a short period of time, he finds out about my virginity, I see him once more before he vanishes completely.

    When I got back from traveling abroad yesterday, I received texts from him saying that he felt bad about how we sputtered out, and if it was alright, he’d like to talk to me and explain himself. I just got back from grilling him over coffee and this is the gist of what he said:

    “I acted really shitty and didn’t know how to handle the awkwardness between us, so I just fizzled out. I think you’re a really cool girl and I thought we really connected, so I was hoping we could be friends. I realized that I’m not looking for a relationship right now — I think when asked if they want a relationship, most 20-somethings would say “yes” in theory, but in practice, the answer would be “no”. My relationship with my girlfriend was really shitty and I realized while we were dating that I wasn’t ready to enter a new serious relationship. I know that when we were dating I said that your virginity was kind of a big deal, but also kind of wasn’t…I think it was a bigger deal than I said it was. It wasn’t a driving factor in deciding not to have a relationship, but it was definitely a part of it. Being in a relationship is already such a huge deal, adding virginity on top of it makes it that much more significant, and I didn’t want to set the precedent for guys you dated after me. I think if you had said you’d had one relationship before, that wouldn’t have been as bothersome. That text you sent me asking me how you could make things less awkward…that seemed needy/clingy/calculated to me, like you were asking for pointers, and it was a turn-off. Anyways, I know I acted like an asshole, but I felt really bad about it. I’d like to keep hanging out with you and be friends…whether or not that develops into a relationship later is a different story. But I think you’re really cool and I’d like it if we could be friends…though I understand if you don’t want to be.”

    I said no, I didn’t want to be friends, and didn’t think we should even try. But I thanked him for his feedback. So that’s the end of that.

    In other news, I shut down my OKC profile. I’m just not going to meet the right kinds of people through online dating, though I do have something good going on with one guy right now. I’ll be honest — I don’t find him entirely attractive (his beta-ness would make even the guys here cringe). But he is genuinely sweet and caring. He’s pedestalized me, but maybe I can guide him away from that, knowing what I know from here.

    Anyways. It was good to finally confirm what I’ve suspected all along — and it had nothing to do with my lack of interest in the guys that I’ve been dating (John wasn’t my type, but he thought we had a connection). Also important to note that putting it all out there can be a very damaging move for both sexes (seeing as how my text was interpreted as needy).

    Interesting food for thought, at any rate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      Thanks for the Field Report! I am so glad you got that feedback – I give John a lot of credit for wanting to make things right. In my experience, that’s rare.

      Interesting report on the online dating. You’re one of the few young women here who has tried it, or at least shared your experiences.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @SayWhaat, are you still in NYC? NYC + online dating = potent combination of bad.

    http://www.bakadesuyo.com/why-is-it-so-hard-to-find-a-spouse-in-nyc

    For what it’s worth, my husband liked my “neediness” and still likes it when I cling onto him like a little kitten. Then again, he’s from Utah.

  • WarmWoman

    SayWhaat-That was nice of him to apologize and but you did the right thing in ending things. I don’t know much about the dating scene in NYC, but have you tried speeddating events, meetup.com or any young professional organizations in the area?

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    “Thomas Friedman has said that Israel is the only country in the Middle East capable of manufacturing a light bulb”

    Turkey, which most people would consider to be part of the Middle East, manufactures automobiles, locomotives, steel, ships, and textiles. I can’t find a specific reference to light bulbs, but I did see an investment by GE in a Turkish bulb-manufacturing company in 1948…I have no doubt that given the rest of their product portfolio, they have the technical and management capability to make light bulbs.

    Interesting side point: writer/blogger Claire Berlinski, who has lived in Turkey for several years, says that when she visits Israel the country has much the same “feel” as does Turkey.

    Also, I wouldn’t trust Friedman to tell me if it was raining or not, let alone anything actually requiring thought and research.

  • Butterfly Flower

    I see America as closer to Japan, an economic superpower, but one with a shrinking working-age population and very sluggish growth. The 2000s here were similar to Japan’s “Lost Decade,” and the 2010s may show, on average, slow growth, up to 2% on average, at best. Accordingly, we’ll start to see social phenomena increasingly mirroring Japan’s – we’re already on our way. The UMC, comprised of “salarymen/women”, will take on more and more work, and face worsening physical and mental health as a result of the burdens. As healthcare costs rise and the doctor shortage becomes more dire with Baby Boomers reaching their elder years, fewer and fewer salarymen/women will have the time or access to treatment for depression, cardiac health issues, etc.

    Um, there aren’t any salarywomen. I mean, Japanese corporations really don’t allow women to climb the corporate ladder [you can become an executive...secretary]. A few ambitious Japanese women will join foreign firms that are less discriminatory, but it certainly isn’t the norm.

    Speaking as a half-Japanese girl engaged to a Japanese guy, there’s this feeling of gloom and uncertainty that permeates all aspects of modern Japanese life [Since the bubble collapsed before I was born, I have no idea if Japanese society was always like that]. Lately, I’ve been noticing a similar “gloom” cultivating within American society.

    Concerning Japanese delaying marriage & children: many young salarymen feel ashamed of their inability to support a family/lack of job stability [married women aren't expected to work so these things are quite important] so they don’t even bother to enter the dating scene [Host clubs are where Japanese men find "no-strings-attached" female companionship; so they're a bit like MGTOW].

    SayWhaat-That was nice of him to apologize and but you did the right thing in ending things. I don’t know much about the dating scene in NYC, but have you tried speeddating events, meetup.com or any young professional organizations in the area?

    NYC dating scene is dismal at best. Quite a few my friends met their significant others while on vacation [Miami, Vegas, or LA]. So, um…she should contact a travel agent?

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I heard someone say yesterday that Greece manufactures nothing. Not one. Single. Thing. The entire economy depends on tourism and the export of olive oil.

    Oh come on even my third world country has something else going on aside from tourism. We manufacture baseball players :D

    For what it’s worth, my husband liked my “neediness” and still likes it when I cling onto him like a little kitten. Then again, he’s from Utah.

    Mine did too. I don’t think is geographical though I think men with bad experiences with neediness will avoid it, but if their problem has be the opposite: Lack of interest then they are not scared by neediness at least till actually becomes scary.

  • SayWhaat

    @ WW

    have you tried speeddating events, meetup.com or any young professional organizations in the area?

    I regret signing up for meetup. So much spam in my inbox. -__-

    No, I’m done trying to meet anyone in a designated romantic capacity. Those things just aren’t conducive to getting to actually know someone.

    @ BF, ha! I’ve been told to move out and bring back an import. :P

    @ Hope

    For what it’s worth, my husband liked my “neediness” and still likes it when I cling onto him like a little kitten.

    The guy I’m seeing right now notes every little thing I do — how I’ll sometimes make weird noises, the way I move, how I grab onto him. He finds it amusing and cute. :)

  • SayWhaat

    Egh blockquote fail.

  • WarmWoman

    @ButterFlyFlower

    Back in 2009-2010, I had met two men in NYC through specialized Indian websites. Let’s just say they did feel dismal in terms of LTR partners. ;) I wonder if SayWhaat would be interested in men in nearby states?

    SayWhaat-You also said the guy texted you “Most guys would say yes when it comes to serious relationships even when they said no.”

    How successful have women been in HUS by asking a guy if he’s serious? Or announcing to a man about what you’re looking for (marriage, kids). I haven’t found it be to a powerful strategy in my life.

  • SayWhaat

    I wonder if SayWhaat would be interested in men in nearby states?

    I would, but having my first relationship be a LDR would be…difficult.

    You also said the guy texted you “Most guys would say yes when it comes to serious relationships even when they said no.”

    No, he didn’t text me that. That was in response to a question I asked him over coffee, and he didn’t say that, he said, “Most people would say yes to relationships in theory, but in practice, they would say no”.

  • WarmWoman

    SayWhaat-I definitely hope you get what you’re looking for. In the meantime, you’re getting great experience by dating different people. In my eyes, you’re also still very young. Hang in there!

    “Most people would say yes to relationships in theory, but in practice, they would say no”.”

    Ah, I get it. But, this is also why I no longer ask men what they’re looking for, because I don’t think most would admit “I’m just looking to get some ass.” :P

  • A.

    “If men get to have a preference on how their female partner looks and what her sexual history is, I don’t see anything wrong with women placing importance on education/occupation. ”

    I think there are two things about this. The first is that men are more self-aware (and up-front) about their preferences.

    Imagine a man saying, “I don’t really identify with all the other guys who think breast size is important. I’d be happy with c-cups; I don’t necessarily need d.”

    Turns out that’s actually a pretty accurate analogy to incomes of $50K and $100K per year, in terms of percentages of people with each, http://www.breastoptions.com/average.html.

    The other is that women are not demonized for their preferences the way men are, eg., http://www.theonion.com/articles/im-more-of-a-breast-man-and-completely-worthless-h,27152/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @A

      As always, the Onion link is very funny. Thanks for sharing.

  • SayWhaat

    The other is that women are not demonized for their preferences the way men are

    Probably because income is within one’s control, and breast size is something you’re born with?

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    not my usual day to day music, but my tastes do include such stuff. Have you tried the Medieval Baebes?

    hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVqee3Pkrm8

    hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tht7id63_3s

    Other Mediaeval Baebes tracks vary very much in energy, those are from “Mirabilis”.

    Clannad Pastpresent (an earlyish best of)
    http://www.amazon.com/Past-Present-Clannad/dp/B000002WDT/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1329669408&sr=1-1

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      Thanks for the great recommendations. We’re Clannad fans, but I didn’t know the others. My husband says we have some Medieval Baebes on a mix, but they sound lovely. I’ll have to check them out. (They look lovely too.)

      I don’t know Nolwenn Leroy, but I really like her sound too. Much appreciated!

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @SayWhaat
    Probably because income is within one’s control, and breast size is something you’re born with?

    I think it’s actually easier to change your breast size than to change your income. I say this as someone who has had reconstructive surgery for something she was born with and who has worked in an unforgiving economy.

  • Just1X

    dans ma vie en france, j’ai trouve Nolwenn Leroy

    “Bretonne” is celtish music from Brittany
    http://www.amazon.fr/Bretonne-Nolwenn-Leroy/dp/B004AYHZRS/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1329670081&sr=1-1

    it’s strangely expensive for the CD in France and the States. If you can get a proxy server in france it’s pretty cheap as an MP3 telechargement (download). Your states account should work with .fr but you need then to think que tu es vraiment en france.

    Her biggest hit (another album) is
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi3JRkRiuWo

    there’s an English version of “Histoires Naturelles”, but the lyrics are not a direct translation
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oj79Zvb4rY

    Hope I’ve pointed you towards something new

  • OffTheCuff

    SayWhaat: “Probably because income is within one’s control, and breast size is something you’re born with?”

    I’m pretty sure people can’t control their height, even less than breast size – yet women are not apologetic about having minimum height standards.

  • WarmWoman

    A,

    I read that article and laughed out loud, instead of thinking “ugh. what a creep.” Thanks for the early afternoon laugh. ;)

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    “I’m pretty sure people can’t control their height, even less than breast size – yet women are not apologetic about having minimum height standards.”

    Also, men are generally much more flexible in their standards. Even with looks – which rate higher for us than women in importance – we generally have something more along the lines of ‘preferences’ than standards or checklists. I know what my ‘ideal’ woman would be in terms of her physical looks, but I certainly haven’t let that stop me from dating others without those.

  • WarmWoman

    @Leapofabeta

    “Also, men are generally much more flexible in their standards. Even with looks – which rate higher for us than women in importance – we generally have something more along the lines of ‘preferences’ than standards or checklists. I know what my ‘ideal’ woman would be in terms of her physical looks, but I certainly haven’t let that stop me from dating others without those.
    Leap of a Beta´s last [type] ..Cupidity”

    That’s how I see preferences too. A woman can say that she prefers men that are 6ft and above, but she may find herself wildly attracted to someone that’s 5’8.

  • jack

    Susan-

    The whole point about women being “better educated” is wearing thin.

    First of all, education, as currently practiced is all about OTHER PEOPLE making you into something, and a committee-run organization issuing you a credential.

    Nothing more.
    Education is not a proxy for either intelligence of capability.

    Especially when so many of these women get degrees is soft social-studies topics like gender equality or diversity. Yeah – real tough “education” there, girls.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @jack

      The whole point about women being “better educated” is wearing thin.

      I hope you don’t think I’m promoting that as an achievement. There are two reasons I have returned to this point several times:

      1. The lopsided ratio in colleges is directly attributable to the feminist reworking of the public education system and curricula in this country. You are right, btw – the number of men entering college has stayed relatively constant, while the ranks of females have blown up in the soft majors.

      2. Marriage will not be an option for many women now in college. Only those who wake up right now and use their agency in the SMP to make good choices can expect a good result. (Some will get lucky anyway, but it’s a crap shoot.) That means choosing the right men, and being very discerning about having sex.

  • Just1X

    de rien Madam Walsh

  • Just1X

    The “Medieval Baebes” look good, you say?

    I hadn’t *cough* noticed

    I was really cheesed off when I came across their stuff one week after they played my town.

  • Mule Chewing Briars

    I remember back in the mid 70s that articles lioness-izing the “New Woman” started pouring out of the journalistic font, but one of them struck a discordant chord even in those early days.

    “Women have become so remarkable and so accomplished, it’s hard to imagine where the men will come from who will be worthy of them?”

    Duh. Women were becoming remarkable and accomplished at mimicking masculine behavior. Thanks to technology, that wasn’t as hard as it would have been in, say, 1896. I guess all men either had to become super-competent James Bonds or we could have applauded men for mimicking feminine behavior.

    Guess what we decided to try?

  • jack

    Mule-

    It still amazes me how much women are absolutely ignorant of all the behind-the-scenes efforts, innovation and technological comforts that men largely have produced.

    When maureen down sits her rapidly-aging fanny down on the commode, does she think about all the materials science, construction, civil engineeering and architectural effort that went into making it possible to use a restroom on the same level as her office where she slings her bitterness at the world?

    Of course not. Once something exists, women immediately take it for granted and say “what have you done for me lately”, and by lately they mean RIGHT NOW.

    The absolute ignorance and ingratitude of American Women is reaching toxic levels.

    American women are no longer worthy of the regard their mothers and grandmothers were worthy of.

    Entitled, spoiled, ungrateful, and OBLIVIOUS to the endless work men have produced for their benefit.

    Nature will not allow this imbalance to continue. Sadly, though, it will be the daughters of these spoiled, bitter women who will bear the brunt of the coming male backlash.

    Why should I care one whit about women, their comfort, or their happiness? They couldn’t CARE LESS about the lives of men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @jack

      Nature will not allow this imbalance to continue. Sadly, though, it will be the daughters of these spoiled, bitter women who will bear the brunt of the coming male backlash.

      Not surprisingly, the worst women raise the worst daughters. My daughter went to an all-girls high school, and the direct correlation between the behavior and attitudes of mothers and daughters was remarkable. (This was easy to observe, as the entire class was only 60 girls.)

      There were some very good women in that group, and their daughters also have good character. Some will go willingly into the next twenty years, well prepared, and others will flounder, kicking and screaming that their every wish has not been met. Many in the latter group will start “woe is me” dating blogs.

  • Just1X

    @Susan,

    last ones before I head off

    Afro Celt Sound System (african / celtish mix) – second album is best IIRC
    http://www.amazon.com/Volume-2-Release/dp/B001232P1G/ref=sr_shvl_album_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1329675139&sr=301-3

    hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeNU600stLA (“Release” from the film “Stigmata”)

    hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrJW33JkVlM “Eireann”

    And somewhat further of track
    http://www.amazon.com/The-Mirror-Conspiracy/dp/B005BLP5IA/ref=sr_shvl_album_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1329675229&sr=301-2

    hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdtOxwRXmVM
    hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDxeN-LEjbo

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      I should get my husband on here to talk music with you! He loves African music too. Actually, he loves all music, all the time. If he is home, there is music on. That ACSS sounds amazing. I want to load up my ipod asap – I’m going to check the library first, though. Thanks again, share your knowledge anytime!

  • Sassy6519

    @ SayWhaat

    That is some pretty interesting information you gathered from the field. I think it was a good decision for you to decline the friendship invitation with that guy. It sounds like his last relationship messed him up pretty badly. Getting involved with him would be a bad idea, since it seems like he hasn’t fully healed from the past. I really do hope you find a guy who is compatible with you.

    On another note, I actually decided to get back with my ex-boyfriend. He and I have decided to give our relationship another try. We’ll see how well things go.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I think it’s actually easier to change your breast size than to change your income. I say this as someone who has had reconstructive surgery for something she was born with and who has worked in an unforgiving economy.

    Cosign this. Padded bras and other things can help you improve your bust line (and I’m telling you as a average B cup bras can do magic I had looked almost as a D with “special effects”) and is just a one time expense, saving to get money for that is easy than finding a constant flux of income and keep a living standard for 10 or 20 years at the very least. I will say high is probably a harder physical standard to live up too, given that heels are very noticeable and can only make you higher to a point but there is not an easy procedure to modify it and I’m sure the results are not as good as breast augmentation are.

  • Jackie

    @Sassy (#169)

    “On another note, I actually decided to get back with my ex-boyfriend. He and I have decided to give our relationship another try. We’ll see how well things go.”
    Hey Sassy,

    I was just thinking about you and wondering how you’ve been. Please keep in touch, as I’ve always enjoyed reading your viewpoint.

    All the best on your renewed relationship with your BF, Sassy–

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jackie

    Thanks for the good wishes. These last 6 months have been the most introspective I have ever been about my love life. The decision to get back with my ex has been building over time, as people probably saw on here. I have always been very skeptical of the idea that people can change, but I can honestly say that I see a change in him. I see a lot of good in us. I want things to work out, and I’m dedicated to giving us a second try wholeheartedly.

  • Escoffier

    Funny, I had dinner with Claire Berlinski about 2-3 months ago (not alone, there were about 8 of us), she is a total babe, very accomplished and interesting, probably sub-40 but getting there, in any case aging very well, and she is … dun dun dun … single, has been for a while apparently, and she left the dinner alone despite the fact that two of the guys were clearly into her. I thought I could sense a nascent desire of hers for one of them to say “Hey, you want to get a drink?” but I guess they chickened out. I also could have imagined the whole thing. Not the dinner, that really happened.

  • Desiderius

    Escoffier,

    If Claire ever develops a nascent desire for a night of good Shakespeare, Jazz, and conversation, I know just the place and man for the job.

    Fresh out of chickens.

  • Desiderius

    “Honestly, it’s just sexism and bigotry. Why does the New York Times publish that crap?”

    Greatness famously skips generations.

    Know anything about Annie?

  • Desiderius

    Our moms weren’t lying to us, there were teaching us what attracted them. The difference was that they grew up in a society that enforced a strong marriage and family norm. If you’re looking for a good father for your children from the get go, a healthy, attractive, man with good social status who happens to be awkward with women is perfect, as he is less of a risk to cheat/abandon you.

    Once that norm itself was abandoned, however, what was ushered in was not the envisioned paradise of everyone creating our own norms according to our unique individual blisses, but rather a devolution to base instinct as norm. For a woman following her base instinct, awkwardness with women goes from a positive to a strong negative, as the children produced with such a man are significantly less likely to be sexy sons.

    Even had the norms remained constant, however, the flooding of the market with these “awkward with women/good elsewhere men”, i.e. betas, raised by these first-wave feminist mothers would have made it a less optimal strategy than it was for men of their generation.

    These sorts of fluctuations are natural and have been going on for millenia. By the time one is ready, alas, for the purple pill, life affords a perspective that makes the red and blue ones less traumatic to swallow.

  • JQ

    @ Escoffier in re 176:

    Claire Berlinski was born in 1968 per her website.

    That said, assuming the pictures on her site are at all recent, I can understand why you misjudged.

  • J

    Sassy–

    Best of luck with your relationship 2.0

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “I hope you don’t think I’m promoting that as an achievement.”

    This was an interesting point you made. My wife is now technically more educated than I am. We both had bachelor’s degrees when we met, but she went back and got a master’s degree to further her career (cue husband’s financial support). However, given the present economic environment, her new degree hasn’t helped much. And I’ve been with the same company for 10 years.

    I’ve come to believe that OTJ experience is far more important than a college degree when it comes to furthering one’s career. Not to discount a college education, it did help me get my foot in the door. Perhaps this educational disparity between men and women will matter less in the face of economic reality, I don’t know. A man can certainly be successful without a college degree. One thing I regret is not getting much training in the skilled manual or technical trades.

  • Desiderius

    “Claire Berlinski was born in 1968 per her website.

    That said, assuming the pictures on her site are at all recent, I can understand why you misjudged.”

    Those of us born in the late 60’s prefer to count in base 12.

    She’s held up very well for 37.

  • Bobley

    Wow, Ms. Coontz and Ms. Browning must have hamsters the size of small dogs. Browning’s thoughts on men and danger are so off-base that a book could be written on it.

    I think much of the problem Bolick addresses will be taken care of by the economy in the future. Many college degrees are utterly worthless, and a very high percentage of these in my experience are held by women. (I am a big fan of the liberals arts when they are done right, but for simplicity’s sake think STEM, accounting, and perhaps business as worthwhile majors.) Plus, women have been helped in great part due to the fact that two industries in which they dominate, health care and education, are heavily subsidized and protected (as of now) from the brutal side of the free market. Over time, inefficiencies will be rooted out and women with worthless college degrees will have to realize that many men without a degree are not of inferior status. But granted, that will take some time, and the problem Bolick speaks of will be a real challenge to young women looking for a decent mate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bobley

      Welcome, thanks for the comment. The more I read, the more I think that there is going to be a major shakeout in college education in the U.S. I agree that many people will find their degrees worthless in the coming years. That’s already happening. Motivated men who didn’t attend college should be just as well off as those with worthless degrees, though STEM men and finance types will retain advantages in the employment market.

  • Just1X

    @Bobley

    “Many college degrees are utterly worthless, and a very high percentage of these in my experience are held by women. (I am a big fan of the liberals arts when they are done right, but for simplicity’s sake think STEM, accounting, and perhaps business as worthwhile majors.)”

    I absolutely agree and in fact would go further, the degree may be worthless, but it probably comes with a debt mountain that cannot be escaped via bankruptcy.

    But you have a lot of hamsters out there with “advanced degrees” and huge debts who will fight to their hamstery death not to realise that they were conned.

    Have you seen Captain Capitalism’s book “Worthless” on the value of selecting a viable (financially) degree?

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    Glad ACSS worked for you. It sprang out of Peter Gabriel’s WOMAD project (World Of Music And Dance IIRC) I think. I got to it from the soundtrack to ‘Stigmata’ (which is very diverse). Elia Cmiral might be worth looking into, but that stuff isn’t what I’ve been listening to lately (which is why all the material I linked to is pretty old). If you’re looking for something even more differant “Tangerine Dream – Optical Race” Marakesh / Atlas eyes / Sun Gate. Need to be careful with Tangerine Dream though, they’ve been going 40 years and have varied markedly though that period.

    One of my favourite albums (when in a chill out mood)
    http://www.amazon.com/Bloom-Crustation/dp/B0000251VF/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329733495&sr=8-1
    that leads into Morcheeba (http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Process-Morcheeba/dp/B000095JWH/ref=pd_sim_m_6) and Skye (the artist from Morcheeba, the name is not unique http://www.amazon.com/Mind-How-You-Go-Skye/dp/B000GGSMJ4/ref=pd_sim_m_8)

    Soundtracks can lead to strange places. The Sopranos theme lead me to “Alabama 3″ specifically “Exile on Coldharbour Lane”. There aren’t three of them and they aren’t from Alabama…ex-druggies from Glasgow (IIRC). It’s kind of based around an invented scumbag preacher in the southern US; “The Reverand D Wayne Love”. Not sure I recommend it to you, but the music is great as is the sense of humour (very dark) “Woke Up This Morning” / “Ain’t Goin’ To Goa” / “U Don’t Dance 2 Tekno Anymore”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hi everyone, I’ve been offline today, sorry to be late in responding, especially to Deti. I spent much of the day teaching my daughter how to sew. I sew a lot, especially for our home, and it’s a useful skill for all kinds of DIY projects. She said something that I thought was funny while I was teaching her how to thread the machine:


      Mama, who taught you to sew?

      I learned in Home Economics.

      Are you kidding me? You learned sewing in school?

      Yes, and also cooking and cake decorating.

      That is such a ripoff that I never got to do that! Thank you Feminism.

      I’ve got guests arriving shortly but I will address all outstanding comments as best I can later this afternoon and evening.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      Thanks for the musical recommendations, keep ‘em coming as inspiration strikes. I’m clipping them all. I know what you mean about soundtracks, I’ve discovered great music that way too. My favorite kind of exercise at the gym is spinning. All the teachers have different styles of music they use for their classes. Sometimes I like a song so much I commit enough of the lyrics to memory to google them when I get home. In this way, I’ve learned about some great bands, and have even impressed by 20-something kids once or twice. :)

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Well i guess this is where i de-cloak. How are you ms walsh, everyone? Been awhile but ive been following along from the shadows and would like to offer the following observations.

    You know, as something of the ultimate outsider, i find all the handwringing just a bit over the top-i mean after all, and ms walsh herself has noted this, along w/other notable talking heads including one mr charles murray in his most recent book, if youre upper middle class and white youve really got nothing to worry about-chances are very good youll marry and marry well, youll be happily married and wont be likely to divorce. Its the guys of my class-and make no mistake on the low end the convo is really about guys when you read through the lines-who are in huge trouble. Its a fact that marital/divorce rates are through the basement/roof for the working class and thats just for starters-so it boggles my mind at least as to why so many of you-who, as murray points out probably hasnt even hung out with blue collar guys-spend (read: waste) so much time cogitating over things that, in the grand scheme of things, dont concern you?

    I just do not get it.

    Moreover, i just do not get, for the life of me, why we do not focus any of this prodigious brainpower on those we know for a fact are indeed the most affected-the working class. It occurs to me that if anyone needed some game, the garden variety working stiff needs it. Yet…nothing.

    Similarly, the same thing could be said of their working class sisters-i mean really, who honestly needs to hear what ms walsh is saying-her “audience”, or the young ladies of fishtown philly that mr murray (and edin and kafalas) wrote about? If one has even a scintilla of intellectual honesty, they would know that to ask these questions is to answer them.

    Yet here we are, navel gazing like i dont know what on one hand and wringing our hands like i dont know what on the other, and it all just makes me scratch my head. What gives?

    Srsly?

    Now, on to other comments…

    To ozymandias: please dont take this the wrong way but you, like me, are a serious outlier; the only difference between us two is that im very aware of this fact. Everytime i read you i just shake my head because you and the people you kick it with are not the norm-no disrespect-and as such, have little to bear on the topics being discussed at hand.

    As for the whole male height thing: listen yall ladies need to stop ok? As a man of below average height i can assure you that such guys are not wanted as dating options even when controlling for other things like education and earning potential. Moreover all of this is documented by numerous surveys and scientific studies. Simply put a woman given the choice will choose a taller man to a shorter one and thats true regardless as to her own height. Now to be sure, being a short man isnt a death sentence; im living proof that it can be mitigated. But lets not kid ourselves-if youre a guy below what is considered to be average height for american males, you are at a decided disadvantage out there on the smp. To even pretend otherwise is to evidence either a disengenuous frame of mind or to have a tenuous hold on reality itself.

    Anyway im very familiar w/coontz and agree w/brendans assessment of her.

    Thats enough for now; ill hold here.

    Holla back

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obsidian

      Welcome, old friend! It is very good to see you here, and as always I appreciate your “outsider” viewpoint. First, let me just say something you know all too well. We are all selfish creatures. None of us perceives a crisis in society, whether it be the government, the SMP, the church, whatever – until the barn door has been open for some time and all the animals have fled. We don’t agitate until we stand to be affected personally. You yourself have said many times that black America is the canary in the coal mine. I think that’s true, and we whites are slowly waking up to that fact. I haven’t read Murray’s new book, but I believe I’ve read that he talks about class being the dividing line today, not race. Certainly, yesterday’s article in the Times re OOW births supports that view.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Obsidian – “as murray points out probably hasnt even hung out with blue collar guys-spend (read: waste) so much time cogitating over things that, in the grand scheme of things, dont concern you?”

    I’m the first of my family to get a college degree. I am from a family of Polish immigrants that came to the U.S. to get jobs in the coal mines and steel mills of Western PA. Of course, when Steel production left the country, Pittsburgh’s economy tanked, and fast. I saw my Uncles (both of which are now ex-uncles…) go from a nice house, two nice cars, a boat, to jobless and eventually divorced in the span of 10 years during the 80’s when I was a teen.

    I work in IT, and although I’m not “Upper” middle class, I am currently making more myself than my entire household did while I was growing up. (That was my mother, and both grandparents working!) I don’t consider myself to be anywhere close to UMC, and very much still see myself as part of the “blue collar” working class.

    My children on the other hand have grown up not really seeing a blue collar lifestyle. They really don’t have any idea how hard some people work to survive. I’ve only started to notice this recently, and I’m hoping it isn’t too late to fix what I see as possible entitlement issues. I believe I’ve tried too hard to make their life more comfortable than my childhood was, and in the process I’ve robbed them of some very good experience in terms of learning how hard life can actually be.

  • J

    Ted–My backgound is pretty similar to yours, so it pains me to bid you farewall. You have stepped in to the vortex by engaging with Obsidian and are now primed to disappear into a blackhole of “conversation” from which few return. Godspeed, my friend, godspeed.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    Taranto’s response is a classic example of a phenom that has crept into our culture I think partially by us lawyers. “Over reading” and “expandio ad absurdum” are the trends I spot both here and elsewhere Examine Coontz’ premise: he submits women reject the “idea” that the “ideal” man is taller, richer etc. Now see what Taranto does with that: Coontz’ sensible (for Christ’s sake most women marry someone less than “ideal”; duh?) admonition is twisted into women marrying short, poor,ignorant, ignorant, obscure, ineffectual men who help with chores. Great. I see this all the time; our political discourse is poisoned with it. Over reading, over interpreting, expandio and reducio ad absurdum (rhetorical skills used by lawyers in argument) are as toxic to a reasoned view of reality as heroin is to maintaining a healthy body. Do it all you want, but don’t blame me when
    you can no longer trust the compass of your conscience and reason because you are “”jones’in” for a fix from your rhetorical syringe (or “outfit”, “kit” as junkies call them).

    BTW ladies; these tall, rich etc. (I’m tempted to call them “trophy” husbands; maybe someone already has) referred to? I know these guys-as a guy does i e truly, not with any of the boy/girl goo that gets between you and them. I am saying this to you in pledge my dears and as a man who will soon face his God and I’ve no time for bullshit. I know these guys; knew ‘em even when I was a generation younger than them. Now, in the 60’s and early 70’s there was still the quaint Spencer Tracy deal where you didn’t get divorced. Every goddamned one of them had gals “on the side”; I just recently discovered that my one model of rectitude alas was also in there too. These were all contemporaries of my father’s, and I knew a lot of them. (My dad lapsed into severe alcoholism in his late 40’s and was so debilitated that he seldom left the house; before then, I have my suspicions). We are talking Boise, Idaho. All of them had affairs; I personally (inadvertently) busted several.

    Now, beginning in the mid-70’s, divorce became increasingly common to the point now that it is unremarkable (wasn’t always the case; I remember). So if you are wife #1 of the kind of guy described ( I doubt he’ll be rich, but he’ll be “an up and comer”) above, listen to your Uncle Tom. Marry him, and get yourself a gym card. Work your butt off to look 23 as long as you can. If you have kids, double up. Try to be the image of the trophy he will be looking at (and getting if not open invitations from than “open for offers” looks) when he starts hitting the bucks. Trust me. All of the guys I know like this are (at around my age, or maybe mid-50’s) on at least wife #2 or #3. Butch Otter, our governor, is an example. He fits every single category, and his wife #2 is 26 years younger.

    Call me cynical.

    “Call me irresponsible
    Call me unreliable
    Call me unpredictable too”
    (ol’ Blue Eyes)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      Thanks for reminding us why alpha males make bad husbands.

  • Arty

    @ Rum “Unchecked hypergamy is a vastly bigger threat to a relationship than the male form of waywardness for one simple, harsh reason. A womans sexual instincts are a form of “monogamous” because she only really wants one man at any given time. If she gets turned on by a new man she will thereafter not want her relationship-guy much at all sexually. And there is not much anyone can do about it.”

    Rum, you are a weird empty Misogynistic little jerk. Crawl into a cave and dissapear. Women are not all secret sluts, they are people just like men. People who want friends and happiness and companionship. The fact that you smugly spew such poison with righteous indignation is truly sickening.

  • Jonny

    I think the issue of women marrying down is overstated. She should not look to her peers (men near her age and younger). She will not marry down, yet she does have options that include marrying up, way up. All those available men from 5 to 20 years older. She will be attractive to older men who have accomplishments and much baggage to bear.

    Just like older men should be her goal. Many older men like myself have selected much younger women. Stuff like this happens. Women who are my peer made themselves unattractive. They don’t show the same respect to her peers. There is too much power and control issues. These issues are somewhat alleviated when you marry someone of a different generation.

    Having children is also a very important step. Many women ignore it to their disadvantage. By the time they marry a mature man, they have succumbed to a decision. Either you marry someone who wants a kid or you continue your ways.

    The articles from the female writers, Coontz, for example just missed the boat. They don’t address the central problem…. Women are not making rational choices in life. Those that managed to get married are doing a poor job of staying married. The question then becomes why bother in the first place?

    What does a woman want? Once a decision is made, let’s try to find the guy for you, or girl, or cat.

  • Ramble

    “Trophy Husbands” – Perfect.

    I am keeping that one.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – “Ted–My backgound is pretty similar to yours, so it pains me to bid you farewall. You have stepped in to the vortex by engaging with Obsidian and are now primed to disappear into a blackhole of “conversation” from which few return. Godspeed, my friend, godspeed”

    I didn’t recognize Obsidian as a regular. Is there something I should know about? :P

  • http://dicipres.wordpress.com Dicipres

    Interesting quote on the decreasing level of trust between men and women

    “A baby makes a woman grow up, but not a man,” she said. “I can’t imagine ever depending on a man. I don’t trust them.”

    from
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/us/young-mothers-describe-marriages-fading-allure.html

  • J

    Ted,

    The Obsidian is well, the Obsidian. So called because he is both black and sharp–like obsidian, get it?–the Obsidian is a ‘sphere regular, a Game blogger, and occasionally HUS commenter who has certain hotspots, into one of which, you just unknowingly walked. So, thread derailment is 5, 4, 3, 2, 1…..

    Just remember, two men enter; one man leaves….. (ref. Thunderdome)

  • J

    Munch at #190

    Good post. You misssed the great Lori Gottlieb debate, but you can catch up here: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/03/marry-him/6651/ Lori Gottlieb was vilified by both ‘sphere bloggers and jezzies IMO for making to much sense. Well, actually what she did was to simultaneously tap into the biggest fears of both groups. High earning betas (and gammas, deltas and omegas) fear that women do not find them attractive will “settle,” marry them for their money, and then move on. (That’s why hypergamy is such a focus in the ‘sphere.) The jezzies OTOH are highly invested in the fantasy that being self-supporting and not having to “settle” means that they are free to pursue the dream of finding the ideal man–who unfortunately does not exist. Lori Gottlieb and, in a somwhat different way, Stephanie Coontz are delivering the message, “Look, you can’t have everything.” No one wants to hear it.

    Now see what Taranto does with that: Coontz’ sensible (for Christ’s sake most women marry someone less than “ideal”; duh?) admonition is twisted into women marrying short, poor,ignorant, ignorant, obscure, ineffectual men who help with chores. Great. I see this all the time; our political discourse is poisoned with it. Over reading, over interpreting, expandio and reducio ad absurdum (rhetorical skills used by lawyers in argument) are as toxic to a reasoned view of reality as heroin is to maintaining a healthy body.

    Exactly, now get ready for round two in which all those rhetorical devices will be brought to bear in a flurry of posts about “settling.” I predict that the weather will be cloudy with a 40% chance of “If the kitten didn’t want to play with me, I’m sure not gonna marry the cat,” followed by “I don’t need a man to support me, but….”

    Everyone–The simple truth is that no one, male or female, gets their dream. Anyone you meet is a fallible human being–just like you. “The One” is not out there waiting for you. There is no “One.” All you can do is find and decent compatible person and work like hell at it. It really doesn’t get much better than that.

    Munch–I’m going to disagree on one point, or at least accuse you of hyberbole.

    Ladies, that gym membership isn’t going to keep you looking 23 when you are 53 and a man who expects that is nuts. Don’t listen too litereally to Uncle Munch here; he’s gone all Foghorn T. Leghorn in order to prove a point. If a man of nearly 60 wants a 23 year old, he’s not for you–even if you are 23 now, you will one day be 24, 25, 26…. OTOH, there’s much to be said for being a great-looking 53, and it can be done.

  • Ramble

    Everyone–The simple truth is that no one, male or female, gets their dream. Anyone you meet is a fallible human being–just like you. “The One” is not out there waiting for you. There is no “One.”

    J, a lot of people would say that that unreasonable “dream” of meeting “The One” is a much bigger problem with girls than it is with guys.

    And, the initial fear that you brought up of Betas fearing the ‘older cat’ that will now settle for them is something that they SHOULD fear. Whereas the insistence/dream of the Jezzies that their ability to support themselves will ultimately enable them to get Don Draper is mostly a delusion.

    IOW, your statement did little to change the playing field as it is seen by many guys.

  • J

    Ramble,

    I don’t want to get into one of these who suffers more debates; IMO they do little to change the playing field either. I will say though that I love to read the personal ads in local papers. It appears to me that both sexes love to try to punch above their weight class, usually to their own detriment. Assortive mating generally wins in the end. Neither men nor women should try to fight that. That was my mainpoint

    Whereas the insistence/dream of the Jezzies that their ability to support themselves will ultimately enable them to get Don Draper is mostly a delusion.

    I think you misunderstand the dream. It’s not so much that Don Draper will be attracted to them because they can support themselves, it’s that they don’t have to marry someone they don’t feel tingles for simply because they need a provider.

    I am about Susan’s age, though I suspect my upbringing was more traditional than hers. I think that we may have been the last generation to have been told to do just what the manopshere fears that most woman want to do. We were advised by older women to find that not particularly attractive, high earning beta while we were in college and marry him because he would be a “good provider.” The rest didn’t matter. When feminism made it possible for women to support themselves, it made it possible for romantic love, as opposed to economics, to become the decisor. At this point, “love” now matters too much. Finding a “perfect soulmate” has become the Holy Grail of relationships, impossible as that is. I believe that Lori Gottlieb was doing women–and men– a favor in saying that Mr. Perfect does not exist and that Mr. Good Enough is really not just good enough. He’s the best anyone is going to find. She’s telling women to throw out the checklist. Isn’t the checklist something you guys complain about?

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – “He’s the best anyone is going to find. She’s telling women to throw out the checklist. Isn’t the checklist something you guys complain about?”

    If that was her point, IMO she made it very badly. It sounds more like the kind of “settling” Jesus M and I (and other men here of course) scream so loudly against. Now that women have “the list”, can they really not use it and still feel like they got the best deal in a man? That cat is out of the bag, and I don’t think there is a way to put it back.

  • tvmunson

    @ J

    Yet another example of “overreading” or perhaps “undereading”: I said “as long as you can”. I DID not say indefinitely, I said as long as you can. Love ya’ J but I was not trying to urge anyone to do the impossible. I said “Try to be the image of the trophy”-again, impossible to be that trophy, but not to “try”. Although I have know several women here (I mean women married to highly succesful alphas) who work out like maniacs, have had nips, tucks, implant, insert, inflate whatever in an attempt to follow what Uncle Tom’s laid out.One woman I’m sure when she sits down to pee can’t close her eyes or shut her mouth; probably needs to elevate her legs to eye level. And I’m in the hinterlands;I’m sure you big city people have seenmuch more of this. In fact I know you have; in Tom Wolfe’s “The Bonfire of the Vanities” he describes the ones who go the evisceration route as “social x-rays” (they starve rather than workout) and the trophies Nos.2 and 3 as “lemon tarts”. And I’m sorry to say but yes even IF you follow my advice if he’s an alpha like Trump (and say what you will, a lot of them are more like the Donald than you want to admit) they’ll think like he does. I read a qoute (now this is depressing -don’t read more unless you’ve got a strong stomach) from him where he said that despite what women do they age and can’t hide or stop it, and it’s a pity (he thought he was being generous) but that was how it was. Men age too, but alphas have the money, charm and status to get younger.

    So I say J I say J ya’ll be a’ lickin’ the wrong I say the wrong chicken bone a’ this here. All I a’ been sayin’ I say all I a’ been syin’ is play that hand y’all been dealt (hand to motuh aside a la Foghorn: “wouldnt want it o be from the bottom o fthe deck”-wink wink) the bes’ way ya”ll can. and keep yoru eye on your Rooster “cuz there be ‘a some comely I say comely young chick hens a’ scratchin for him (and I know I said I know what I be a’ sayin’).

  • Ramble

    I don’t want to get into one of these who suffers more debates;

    Neither do I. But, the examples that you gave in an attempt to set the “everyone needs to wake up” playing field did not imply that both sexes were making major mistakes. It seemed like, from your examples, that the girls were making the bigger mistakes, regardless if that is what is actually happening in real life.

    I think you misunderstand the dream. It’s not so much that Don Draper will be attracted to them because they can support themselves, it’s that they don’t have to marry someone they don’t feel tingles for simply because they need a provider.

    I think I understood your point. But, my attempt to paraphrase it back to you was not great.

    When feminism made it possible for women to support themselves, it made it possible for romantic love, as opposed to economics, to become the decisor. At this point, “love” now matters too much. Finding a “perfect soulmate” has become the Holy Grail of relationships, impossible as that is.

    J,
    Finding a “perfect soulmate” has become the Holy Grail of relationships for girls, impossible as that is.

    Again, it seems like you are highlighting problems which are being caused by females, not males; which is fine. Girls have caused some problems. But, if you were attempting to NOT blame just one sex, I think that you are failing.

    I believe that Lori Gottlieb was doing women–and men– a favor in saying that Mr. Perfect does not exist and that Mr. Good Enough is really not just good enough.

    I read that article and it was disgusting. If all she wanted to communicate was that we should be more realistic about the modern SMP, that would have been fine. But men, in her article, were little more than props. And, after I found out how she had treated her long-time boyfriend, I was not surprised.

    Now, I am not indicting you for something she wrote or did, but, if I were you, I would not my wagon to that star.

  • Ramble

    And J,

    re: Checklist

    I don’t think a checklist in and of itself is a bad thing. Her checklist could consist of:
    – Caring
    – Faithful
    – Hard Working

    But, so often, the checklist doesn’t look that much like that.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    – Caring
    – Faithful
    – Hard Working

    Were you stalking me when I was single? :p

  • J

    I said “Try to be the image of the trophy”-again, impossible to be that trophy, but not to “try”.

    You did, Munch. I just wanted to emphasize that trying to look 23 as long as one can IS impossible. It also can end up making a woman look truly unfortunate–bad surgery, ridiculous choices in make-up and clothing, etc.–much worse than aging gracefully can. To give an example, no one would mistake me for 23; it’s not my goal to try to make that happen. I’ve already been 23, it was fun, but I know it ain’t happening again. OTOH, there’s a lot to be said for still looking good in middle age; the old roosters still kept scratchin’ believe it or not.

  • Ramble

    Were you stalking me when I was single? :p

    I am far too lazy to stalk.

    However, any girl that has a checklist that looks like that is definitely worthy.

    And, back on point, I have come to the opinion that girls with lengthy, and, increasingly ridiculous, checklists, are a good thing.

    The girls themselves may not be great, but the fact that they are signaling/advertising what it is that they want (i.e. “Well Traveled”, hawt, “Exciting”, etc.), helps everyone else really understand who they are.

  • Just1X

    They never, I say never, should’a stopped makin Foghorn Leghorn cartoons

    (thanks Mr M)

  • Ramble

    there’s a lot to be said for still looking good in middle age;

    A woman who looks like a beautiful 20 year old woman is beautiful.
    A woman who looks like a beautiful 30 year old woman is beautiful.
    A woman who looks like a beautiful 40 year old woman is beautiful.
    A woman who looks like a beautiful 50 year old woman is beautiful.
    etc.

    Looking your age was killed by the boomers. After the boomers are killed, hopefully, it will make a comeback.

  • J

    I understand Ramble, but I do find the fear of women “settling” to be overblown–not that it’s a good thing for men to be merely settled for, but in the sense that it’s a less usual occurence than you’d think from reading ‘sphere blogs. It seems to me that IRL more women–at least the sort of women generally discussed here, UMC career types–miss the boat due to unreasonable expectations than actually marry a guy just to use him. About 20% of white, college educated career women never marry; that’s twice the number of similar women in the 1960s. I would assume the reason for the growth is that women with economic options are refusing to settle, not that they are merely settling for beta providers as do some women with fewer options.

    I’ve heard your criticism of Lori Gottlieb before, and frankly I’m not hearing her say that men are props. I hear her saying that she looked for perfection, she thought little things that don’t matter did matter, and that as a result she missed the boat. I hear her saying that she wanted SATC’s Mr. Big when she should have been looking for a partner to build a life with. I hear her saying that she searched for a ten because she didn’t realize that she she was perhaps an eight, and now all she can find is a five. I hear her saying that she misunderstood the SMP and now she’s paying in a way that she wants to stop other women from having to suffer. I don’t hear her saying “Marry someone you can’t love.” She’s saying, in the nicest way possible to other women, “Look, you’re not the prize pig you think you are. Don’t let perfect stand in the way of good. Don’t let a romantic view of “true love” stand in the way of a good and real life you can build with another person if you are smart enought to understand that they. like you, are flawed.”

    We all want to see hearts and birdies flying in circles around our heads, and we all want to believe that we have that effect on others. But few people today realize that once the dopamine wears off, all you are left with is the day to day. I see Lori as someone who realized that too late. She wanted tingles when she should have wanted a guy who’d have built a good day to day life with her. She realizes that there was a smaller window od opportunity for doing that than she thought. She’s trying to tell women NOT to make her mistake. Ultimately, I think that benefits both sexes.

  • J

    Ramble–I’m a boomer and I don’t try to look like a kid. That was my point.

  • Ramble

    I understand Ramble, but I do find the fear of women “settling” to be overblown–not that it’s a good thing for men to be merely settled for, but in the sense that it’s a less usual occurence than you’d think from reading ‘sphere blogs. It seems to me that IRL more women–at least the sort of women generally discussed here, UMC career types–miss the boat due to unreasonable expectations than actually marry a guy just to use him. About 20% of white, college educated career women never marry; that’s twice the number of similar women in the 1960s. I would assume the reason for the growth is that women with economic options are refusing to settle, not that they are merely settling for beta providers as do some women with fewer options.

    J, I don’t disagree, but, again, it seemed like you were trying to say to both girls AND guys that they BOTH needed to get their heads out of the clouds. But, then, you followed that assertion with examples that seemed to only implicate females.

    Again, nothing particularly wrong with that, but I don’t think you struck the chord you were looking for.

    ===================================

    re: Gottlieb

    If all she said was, “be more realistic”…that would have been fine. But, she was getting depressed because other girls had husbands who would take out the garbage while she had no one. Her message was almost specifically aimed at girls, saying “Well, you better settle. Because, even if he isn’t great, at least you will have someone to take out the garbage.”

    If there was any message for the guys in her article (which there wasn’t), it was to settle for the girls that are settling for you.

    It was disgusting.

    There was absolutely no concern for what men might need or want.

    Now, I don’t think every article must address the desires of both girls and guys, but her article was especially self-involved.

  • J

    Ted/Ramble–

    AAArrrgggghhhh.

    I’m beginning to think that Lori reads for men the way Roissy reads for women. Perhaps the message just doesn’t translate well across the gender line. She knows she screwed up; short of groveling she can’t make it any clearer.

    Nevertheless, there’s a lot of truth in what she says and the changes that she advocates are things I’ve heard in the ‘sphere though packaged in a way designed for women to here them. Predictably, she was villified by both sides, the ‘sphere hears “Use those betas.” The Jezzies hear, “You need a man to survive.” What I hear her say to women is “Be realistic, princess. What you want doesn’t exist.” And I think she’s right.

    And, after I found out how she had treated her long-time boyfriend, I was not surprised.

    Ramble, are you talking about the guy who the Jezzies dug up who felt that the man described in the book was him and took offense at being described as such a loser? If so, she said that the guy in the book was a composite of several guys from her real life. If that’s so, I don’t want to get caught up in “he said, she said.” Generally both parties are full of shit in those discussions.

  • Just1X

    Okay, so we’ve seen that women should get married even if they’re not getting the Prince that they thought they were entitled to; because they’re not the prize pig they thought they were (love this J, congrats). Hopefully a BBD won’t come by (the ‘lucky’ hubby hopes).

    So, what’s in it for da menz?

    Women, on the whole, don’t gamble much in getting married, that isn’t true for men. NA-Divorce-Settlements-ALT, but ones with kids probably are, whether or not they’re his, or consent was given.

  • http://www.singlemind.net Amir Larijani

    Susan Walsh says:

    Yes. Not to mention that STEM guys are about to be the new black. I’ll be writing more about that in a post on education next week.

    I LOVE that! As an engineering grad myself, my wife will be pleased to know that she married “black”.

    It’s been a wonderful day! ;)

  • Just1X

    Somewhat off-topic but!

    Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Loung Lizards is back!
    (this is where Roissy probably got his first tips from. Feel the cheese)

    http://www.reghardware.com/2012/02/15/antique_code_show_leisure_suit_larry/

    Wow, now I feel nostalgic for my old ‘486 PC (not my first computer by some ways)

  • J

    Ramble, we seem to be crossposting and also talking at crosspurposes while essentially agreeing. Perhaps we should catch up with each others most recent posts before commenting.

    This gave me a chuckle though:But, she was getting depressed because other girls had husbands who would take out the garbage while she had no one. Her message was almost specifically aimed at girls, saying “Well, you better settle. Because, even if he isn’t great, at least you will have someone to take out the garbage.”

    So much of married life is actually like that. Obviously, you want to love the guy who’s taking out the garbage or the gal whos’s picking the dirty underwear up off the floor, but a lot of what makes marriage good IS having a helpmate who will do that stuff. It really is ultimately made of thousands of little things, not grand passion. In our culture, passion gets uou there, but appreciating the day to day keeps you there.

    LG is going in alone as a single mom (her choice, I know). She comments about taking the garbage out in the context of hearing married women at the park complain, in a way that seems ungrateful to her, about their husbands being less than perfect. She isn’t saying “Get married so that someone takes the garbage out.”

    J, I don’t disagree, but, again, it seemed like you were trying to say to both girls AND guys that they BOTH needed to get their heads out of the clouds.

    I think guys are unrealistic in different ways than women, most frequently in thinking that they can overcome assortive mating without a lot of money. But that’s another story.

  • Ramble

    Ramble–I’m a boomer and I don’t try to look like a kid. That was my point.

    Yes, I understood your point and then wholeheartedly agreed with you.

  • tvmunson

    @ J

    We’re not communicating. Since when is as long as you can impossible? It’s not, but you overread. You think I’m saying get all that stuff, lifts tucks etc. I AM NOT SAYING TRY TO LOOK 23 FOREVER! I AM SAYING LOOK AS GOOD AS YOU CAN AS LONG AS YOU CAN! Surgery does not look good-the women end up looking like the dead women Jack Nicholson makes a commercial out of in “Batman”,the lines down their cheeks look like a Charlie McCarthy doll, thei lips look like their prpeard to suck the chrome off a trailer hitch (“Electric Cowboy” Willie Nelson).

    No, I am sorry, trying to look 23 as long as you can is NOT IMPOSSIBLE!
    But let’s be clear;as long as you can vaires. Diet , exercise, genetics will play a part. But getting a lift at 30 will not make you look 23; you will look like a 30 year old with a lift. Same with all surgery. But everything else should be on the table right?You don’t seriously disagree with exercise, moderate diet, aclohol sun etc.? If you don’t get me I give up.

    But that was not my point anyway. My point is if you at 23 marry an alpha trophy husband (someone liked that) I flat by God guarantee fucking T you that if you don’t try to possess every bit of your youthful looks you are asking for serious fucking trouble as in you chances of getting dumped by same once he hits the money (and that’s a stipulation-he’ll need success) and we’re taliking about a tall, rich, powerful, knowledgeable, renowned, powerful man-well, when Billy Joel sang “I love you just the way you are” he also said before that “don’t go changin'”. Uncle Tom tell it like it is. (I hate that song and in fact all of ouvre).

  • J

    Okay, so we’ve seen that women should get married even if they’re not getting the Prince that they thought they were entitled to; because they’re not the prize pig they thought they were (love this J, congrats). Hopefully a BBD won’t come by (the ‘lucky’ hubby hopes). So, what’s in it for da menz?

    I think it’s implicit in what I said that if a woman finds a good guy and marries him based on a realistic appraisal of who she actually is despite previously seeing herself as a princess, she will have the common sense to stay with him. It’s not about using or settling. It’s about dropping the bullshit, seeing your own faults and being loving to another imperfect person. It’s about understanding that there is no BBD.

  • Ramble

    I think guys are unrealistic in different ways than women

    I got the idea that you were trying to say that, but, I was saying that you did not really accomplish that…IMO.

    re: Gottlieb, again

    We will likely lob arguments back and forth, so, I am content in saying that I read the article and I am confident that I got the gist of it. And she could not have cared less about the male perspective.

    “Even if you are not that hot for him, even if he is not charming, even if he is not great, at least he is there and he takes out the garbage. So, GIRLS, you should definitely settle! (And, if any of you guys are still reading this vomit inducing article, you should be grateful that we might be willing to settle for you.)”

    I will leave that as my last lob and let you get in the last word. (I reserve the right to keep lobbing arguments if I am unsatisfied with your next statement :)

  • Ramble

    I think it’s implicit in what I said that if a woman finds a good guy and marries him based on a realistic appraisal of who she actually is despite previously seeing herself as a princess, she will have the common sense to stay with him. It’s not about using or settling. It’s about dropping the bullshit, seeing your own faults and being loving to another imperfect person. It’s about understanding that there is no BBD.

    This is a reasonable sentiment to express, but not the one that Gottlieb expressed in her article. (alright, THAT is my last argument on this subject.)

  • J

    I get you, Munch. It’s the semantics we’re arguing about. For most people, holding till looking 23 for as long as possible means until they turn 25, maybe 30 if lucky. I’m told I look 10-15 years younger than I am, but I sure the hell don’t look like I did 10-15 years ago. I just look better than many women my age. (My parents lived forever. I have long telomeres and good luck.)

    I agree regarding taking care of oneself, with or without the alpha to please. However, I go on record saying that playing that game with an “alpha” is a losing battle. Wouldn’t even try.

    Ramble #200, sorry. Today is apparently Arguing at Crosspurposes Day for me.

  • J

    I got the idea that you were trying to say that, but, I was saying that you did not really accomplish that…IMO.

    Okey doke.

    re: Gottlieb, again. We will likely lob arguments back and forth, so, I am content in saying that I read the article and I am confident that I got the gist of it. And she could not have cared less about the male perspective.

    Well, she is trying to advise women in this piece; her book is a cautionary tale for women.

    “Even if you are not that hot for him, even if he is not charming, even if he is not great, at least he is there and he takes out the garbage. So, GIRLS, you should definitely settle! (And, if any of you guys are still reading this vomit inducing article, you should be grateful that we might be willing to settle for you.)”

    Roissy-like hyberbole. She knows that she will be criticized for advising people to settle. She says that explicitly elsewhere in the article.

    I will leave that as my last lob and let you get in the last word. (I reserve the right to keep lobbing arguments if I am unsatisfied with your next statement.

    LOL.

    Seriously, I understand what you are responding to in the article. Taken out of context, that does sound bad. I find myself acting as her apologist here as Rum did for Roissy. Yeah, I guess I see what bothers you about LG, but I understand and agree with her main message regarding the SMP and having an inflated understanding of one’s value and the value of others in it.

  • J

    SW–Shop and home ec are still available at my kids’ high school. They have cuter names and are co-ed now. Most college bound kids don’t take them, however. They don’t have the room in their schedules. They take tech classes instead.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Shop and home ec are still available at my kids’ high school. They have cuter names and are co-ed now.

      I met with my focus group today, and some of them said that too. Two girls from CA said these courses are still widely taken, though now sewing is marketed as a “Project Runway” class. No such classes are offered in Brookline, though our teenagers do learn about fisting in sex ed here. :(

      I had a 1966 Sunbeam Tiger as a teenager (remember Maxwell Smart’s car?) and it was notoriously unreliable on the road (though soooooo much fun). I took Auto Shop in high school, and learned some basics that helped a lot.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com The Private Man
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Private Man

      Your post on Classrooms is a must read. Misandry in the elementary schools was horrendous in the 90s. Do you think it is any better now?

  • Ramble

    She knows that she will be criticized for advising people to settle.

    She is not advising both guys and girls to settle. Like you had just said, her article (and book) is basically r girls. And that they should settle for that very imperfect man that takes out the garbage.

    This is not like saying, “You thought he might look like George Clooney or Johnny Depp…You thought that he might be an artist or a rock star…but, instead, he looks like a normal guy and he has a steady job as an accountant. Do not force yourself to like him, but at least take a second look at him and see him for his realistic positive qualities. If he is still lacking (say, he is an uncaring bastard), ok, you gave it the ol’ college try. But, if you never even look at him because of your unrealistic checklist, then you are really hurting yourself”.

    Had she said something like that, personally, I would not have been disgusted in the least.

    But, she did not even come close to that.

    Helping young people to be more realistic can be a great thing. Helping girls to “settle” for some guy they never would have otherwise looked at because he takes out the garbage is highly distasteful. It is advice that has absolutely giving zero thought to the men that will ultimately be on the receiving end of their “love”.

  • Ramble

    I got the idea that you were trying to say that, but, I was saying that you did not really accomplish that…IMO.

    Okey doke.

    And, J, I was trying to be helpful. I thought that you had made the girls look more culpable in this game than the guys, but I don’t think you had wanted to communicate that. That is all I was trying to to.

  • J

    This is not like saying, “You thought he might look like George Clooney or Johnny Depp…You thought that he might be an artist or a rock star…but, instead, he looks like a normal guy and he has a steady job as an accountant. Do not force yourself to like him, but at least take a second look at him and see him for his realistic positive qualities. If he is still lacking (say, he is an uncaring bastard), ok, you gave it the ol’ college try. But, if you never even look at him because of your unrealistic checklist, then you are really hurting yourself”.

    Actually, that is what she is trying to say, but if it doesn’t say that to you…well, OK. Again, I think it’s like Roissy. The underlying message is “Don’t be a pushover.” There are nice ways to say that. Roissy prefers to illustrate the point by suggesting a man sodomize his dates with no lube. Women take offense. The rest of the ‘sphere says, “Women just don’t get it.” And, we don’t. What can I say?

    #231–I know; there was no offense taken.

  • OffTheCuff

    J: “What I hear her say to women is “Be realistic, princess. What you want doesn’t exist.” And I think she’s right.”

    That was my take from the article, too. People are reading far too much into it.

  • Ramble

    Actually, that is what she is trying to say, but if it doesn’t say that to you…well, OK.

    If that is what she said, and I simply misread it, so be it. But, when I read the article, I never got the idea that she gave the male perspective one moment of thought. Now, in that it was likely aimed directly at girls…no big deal. But, it seemed to presuppose that the men are there waiting for the girls to “settle”.

    Which is different than attempting to get girls to be more realistic from the get-go.

    However, it is entirely possible that I was simply being too sensitive. Though, after reading about her relationship from the perspective of her one long time boyfriend, I had thought my initial impressions were accurate.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Well i guess its time to jump back in now that the partys in full swing! Lets see…i think this is a great place to start…

    J: you know whats absolutely side-splitting to me is that you roll your eyes at my comment and warn others that im a thread derailer and here i am spending the better part of my afternoon watching you and ramble completely derail the thread over what lori gottlieb did or didnt say in her “marry him!” book/article(s). Oh the irony.

    But what i really think what got your goat wrt my commentary was simply this: that the people most at risk and who need the help that places like hus and people like paul carrick brunson can provide, ie, the very working classes that murray and others are talking about, are not getting it-instead, theyre objectified, dissected, talked down to (if at all) and regarded as something less than fully human. None of this based on some interesting theory i read in a dusty corner of a college library somewhere-ive lived it firsthand. While you and ramble quibble over gottlieb and roissy (and ive spent more time than i probably should have studying at length them both-google it up for yourself) my point is that they both have one thing in common-neither speaks to the class of folk to which i belong. Get it? And the sheer tone deafness on this front is mind boggling when one again looks at the actual data. So while watching you and him argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin may prove immensely interesting for the two of you im on the sidelines going “wtf?!?!” and wondering when or when is some real rap gonna emanate from all this extreme self centered navel gazing. Which brings me to…

    Ms. Walsh: hey, thanks for the welcome back and thanks also for alerting me to the fact that my name is in essence mag. This makes the second time this has happened and i do feel honored.

    But at risk of looking like a bad guest and while i completely hear what youre saying, it simply doesnt cut it-again we know for a fact that folk of your cohort have little to fear out there on the smp; its guys like me who are on the front lines and being tossed in the meat grinder. Yet the best we can do is discuss us as if we are some kind of disease or something. Im telling you that you have no idea how it feels to either be regarded in such a fashion or not to be regarded at all. No matter what side one comes down on when it comes to folks like roissy, gottlieb, your or brunson, the bottomline is, if youre of a certain class not only can you find media outlets for you to vent to your hearts content there are also places for you to go to get help-not so for guys like me. When i came into the knowledge of game i had to basically reverse engineer it on my own and adapt it to my particular circumstances. There are no blogs or forums or books or articles or consultants or bootcamps, black or white, that assist blue collar brothas in these areas. Like everything else we are expected to figure it all out on our own. So please pardon me if all the hand wringing and sky is falling babble falls on one of my jaded, tin ears. Im just saying.

    Ted: like ms walsh and j, please dont take this the wrong way but, cry me a river. Youre hardly “working class” going by what you said to me regardless as to how hard you may try to wish yourself so and i maintain that you come a lot closer to murrays “bubble test” than i do-not only am actually a part of the working class as i speak i know what its like to spend major portions of my time being among people from that cohort. I seriously doubt if you can say the same, and while that in itself is no crime it does go to prove the whole point of commentary here. Again: you have much less to worry about along the lines of the smp than your uncles. Fact. Yet here you are, hand wringing with the best of em-for what?!?

    Please explain that to me.

    Holla back

    O.

  • J

    here i am spending the better part of my afternoon watching you and ramble completely

    And yet, you couldn’t take your eyes off me…

  • CornSyrupy

    Been lurking for a while now, finally decided to register to add to this comment from Jonny at #193:

    “She should not look to her peers (men near her age and younger). She will not marry down, yet she does have options that include marrying up, way up. All those available men from 5 to 20 years older. She will be attractive to older men who have accomplishments and much baggage to bear.”

    I agree with all of your comment, it just reminded me of a phenomenon I’ve noticed. I’m in my 40s, and I’ve now seen the first round of divorces & remarriages among my peers (side note: most of these were initiated by the woman, or involved the woman cheating – I’m the only one in my social group that hasn’t been surprised). I’ve seen a couple friends whom I knew were not interested in having more children get a little blinded by the attentions of a young, beautiful woman, and so apparently never discuss whether they would have children or not. It turns out to be quite difficult, perhaps impossible, to look into the eyes of your new 28-year-old wife and say “No way, no more babies for me!” So gentlemen, be ready if you find yourself in those shoes.

    We live in an upper-middle-class suburb, and when I get dragged to the mall by my wife & daughters, I now pass the time by keeping an eye out for guys my age pushing a stroller. They almost always have The Thousand Yard Stare of a guy that thought his life was going to be filled with sex and adoration from a young hottie, but has turned into The Life He Left v. 2.0. Instead of a sex swing and a backache, they’ve got diapers, vomit, school plays, 5am Saturdays for kids’ sporting events, and college bills until after retirement age.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @CornSyrupy

      Thanks for de-lurking, I had to laugh at your comment. There were always a couple of dads in the elementary school who appeared to be about 75. They looked like great-grandfathers. In one case I knew of, the two kids of marriage #3 were his 5th and 6th. Sadly, wife #3 died before she turned 40, and he was left to manage as best he could. It was a very difficult situation.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @J: did you come up with such a pithy one-liner all by yourself? Really?

    Anyway…

    The problem i have with gottlieb/roissy, since we’re on the (derailed) topic, is the following…

    In the case of gottlieb she’s a sociopathically entitled woman who thinks the world revolves around her despite the fact that to this day no one is beating a path to her door;

    And in the case of roissy i find him to be, among other things, unecessarily meanspirited-and this just isnt in relation to women but wrt anyone he sees as “less than”. Clearly its a manifestation of dominance issues he has, that are in my view deeply perverted, and the way he intertwines his personal agendas (and demons) with insightul game related commentary makes for quite a heady and dangerous brew for his readers, many of whom are often too young and too pissed off at the world to care to tease all of these things out for himself.

    And yes j, i maintain the following proposition:

    That neither gottlieb, nor roissy, speak to my particular circumstance.

    Do you agree/disagree, & why?

    Hmm?

    Holla back

    O.

  • Pingback: Millennials and Marriage

  • Bobley

    @Just1x, no, I haven’t seen “Worthless” by Captain Capitalism. Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll be sure to check it out- reading about the hollowing out and decline of the US economy is a macabre interest of mine.

  • Rum

    Susan
    A Sunbeam Tiger? I am helpless with envy. I put on a major performance to convince my Dad that the most sensible, practical car for a young guy was a Sunbeam Tiger because the V8 version had a Ford Engine. And who really needs a back-seat and a roof anyway? I think he respected my willingness to be creative with my bs; but he knew too much about such things to actually get me one.
    When Roissy says that what young women really want is a round of “surprise” un-lubed anal sex he is really saying is 1. I can write a great short scene and a great short phrase and 2. Don’t be silly, you know what I mean.”
    IOWs, you women can actually trust us; we are not like the other guys.
    IOWs, it is a good thing if no one is completely sure what you mean. If that kind of theatricality can be achieved using words that when put together ring with some musicality you might be in the presence of poetry.
    There are worse things.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      When I lived in CA, I frequently saw vintage cars in perfect shape. It’s rare in the Northeast, though. One day, I was walking my dog and spotted a white Sunbeam, exactly like mine. The top was down. I walked up to it, and stared at the dials, the choke, the stick shift. Memories raced back. It looked so basic, so no-frills, but I was consumed with nostalgia for that car. I left a note on the windshield, sharing my story of owning the exact same model, and thanking the owner for that serendipitous gift.

  • Rum

    Cornsurupi
    As far as I can tell, you are advising men to make sure they have a vasectomy before exposing their naked financial parts in this new-born sexual market place.

  • J

    No such classes are offered in Brookline, though our teenagers do learn about fisting in sex ed here.

    Geez Louise, you just sent me running to my kids to see if they’ve learned about fisting in health. Thank God, they are learning about that on the net like normal kids. :-)

    I am seriously shocked by that though. I have some familiarity with Brookline as I was following their educational best practices when I was employed. My community is much like Brookline demographically, so it is one of the communities that sort of set a standard for us. I don’t think we will be following you down that rabbit hole though. Wow!

    I took Auto Shop in high school, and learned some basics that helped a lot.

    That is cool. I took woodshop for six weeks when we swapped with the boys. I made a nice bookcase, but I wish I knew more about cars.

  • SayWhaat

    Home ec and shop were available at my high school too. Only my peer group never took them because we didn’t want the As in those classes to bring down our weighted GPAs and affect our college admissions.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      Only my peer group never took them because we didn’t want the As in those classes to bring down our weighted GPAs and affect our college admissions.

      I must confess, I would have not let my daughter take Home Ec instead of BC Calc. That’s a shame, but at the same time, she would have indeed paid a price for making that choice, in terms of college admissions.

  • JQ

    @Obsidian:

    As quantity has a quality all its own, it is far from unreasonable for (U)MC whites to be worried about their unmarried progeny (or self/peers) as they are most of the never married in America in most cases.

    Using the Census Annual Current Population Survey(CPS) Supplement data to break down all persons ages 23-28 by marital status, race, and gender (in that order) tell an equally interesting picture in that it is equally heterogeneous. Reordering the variables is also instructive, in that it shows (aggregating across genders) every race, in those age groups, at almost all education levels, have at least 60% of their population unmarried. Further, even while whites may have one of the lowest rates of having never been married, never married whites of any education level outnumber those never married of all other races combined (it should be noted, this is without breaking out Hispanic origin as the system does not do this by default). Breaking out Hispanic origin, never married whites with at least some college still dominate total number, if only because never married Hispanics probably have no more than a high school education. Whites with only a high school diploma remain the plurality of never married 23-28 year old Americans.

    I chose 23-28 year olds to attempt to control for the “still in college” effects which are notorious in data which aggregates 16-22 or 18-22 year olds in with their somewhat older contemporaries.

    For those who wish to use the Census Table Creator tool to conduct their own analysis, it can be found at http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstc/cps_table_creator.html

  • Dinkney Pawson

    My Dad had a red Sunbeam Alpine (4cyl) with the black hard top. He put a luggage rack on the boot. The four of us toured Europe in it in the late 60s.

    We brought it back to the USA with us. Dad couldn’t anybody competent to work on it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My Dad had a red Sunbeam Alpine (4cyl) with the black hard top. He put a luggage rack on the boot. The four of us toured Europe in it in the late 60s.

      I know that was a cramped ride, but what memories you must have!

  • Dinkney Pawson

    … couldn’t *find* anybody …

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    ON “SETTLING”

    Uncle Tom here. As the informed readership is aware, I have recently added a new credential to my credibility index, beyond being a (near) 60 year old man who can barely turn on his computer, been with my wife for 33 1/2 years, has not been in an establishment where people dance or even stand up very often in probably 14, and has otherwise no dog in this fight other than to provide a partial, and I stress partial, insight relating to matters concerning commitment. Every thing I say can be sliced and diced, exceptions found, modified, qualified, and deconstructed to the point where there is no purpose in even saying it. But I owe you my readers, those who spend their precious moments (and they are so precious) to read me, my attempt.

    First, the mystical. There is magic in this endeavor we are discussing, the myriad names we given it here, the “search”. Oh yes; I’ve not only seen it, I’ve lived it. It is there. along with ego protection, projection,anomic frustration and a whole lot more. The search is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE EASY.But a little magic always helps. Rumi says “Lovers don’t finally meet somewhere; they’re in each other all along.” Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Right away a conundrum huh? Not easy, but they’re in each other-wassup’ wid’ dat’? You must remove the barriers (and this “settling” thing is one-I’ll get there in a minute) in you, then you are ready. “Who you seek is seeking you”-yes, true too that. The mind works and is enmeshed in reality more than is healthy for it. Reality is final, but not complete (Dodge “Not Fade Away”). It is not enough to simply try as hard as you can; you must let go, rashly move as you deliberately strive to get beyond your barriers. If I’ve confused you-good. I’ve been just as confused as you and in love for 34 1/2 years. Oh and you skeptics-take your shots. You drink from the cup, I from the well.

    Ok that’s the hard part. Now the practical-and a parable, this one from the made-for-tv-movie “Masada”. Peter O’Toole plays a Roman general come to break the Jewish resistance in the fortress. Now, I was a 28 year old law student who was set to graduate. I was in love, but a part of me was equivocal about the “next step”. Now, back to the movie. O’Toole has captured a Jewish concubine who he can ravish if he chooses. But instead, he starts talking about his wife, who died. In doing so he remarks “You (the concubine) are far more beautiful than she”, but as he says this he isn’t even looking at her, and you can tell to him that is such a minor detail that it hardly registers with him. He details their life, her death, with such feeling and emotion that the concubine has seen him not as her conqueror, but as a man, one she genuinely has feelings for.

    And it clicked. I had been musing about when I finally started making money would I meet someone better, all sort of shit. I realized Susan loved me, would stand by me whatever, and there was nothing I could, no “perfect” person who would ever replace that. I realized love was more fragile than a candle in the wind, it was a match that needed to be carried to fidelity and commitment before it went out, that there was nothing else I would ever find.We got engaged the next day. As for her standing by me, read “Munson”.

    You will never meet that person if you have a checklist. The magic will not occur; it resists, in fact cannot abide in the slightest formulas, recipes. When you love you never settle. That is the person you love, and then you must give more. Love is a pistol my young friends; it needs a holster to make it useful. That holster is what I described to you, fidelity, honor, sacrifice, and commitment, and as love is an act of courage the holster that contains it involves a similar, although different, exertion of the will. Those who seek only love affairs go about as one who constantly brandishes a weapon, never holstered, and someone, perhaps many, including the bearer, inevitably gets hurt. Even if one succeeds in carrying on a series of affairs without doing so, nothing is accomplished. Kahlil Gibran says those who reject love go to “that season-less world where (they) laugh, but not all of (their) laughter, and weep, but not all of (their) tears.” They remain shrubs, never trees.

    Got a little heavy (60’s word). Sorry. Let’s lighten it with a final quote from Rumi:

    Do not be satisfied with the stories that come
    before you. Unfold your own myth.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      You are our own Gibran. I am thrilled to have another essay for the Munson collection. That was beautifully said.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @ Fructose # 237

    Men: if you do not want kids, vas. If you’re about to be married, and you’re intended says she doesn’t want kids, then say “Ok-I get a vas before we honeymoon.” I’ll bet she equivocates, and if you do-hi dad! 2nd wife same etc. If there’s no vas planned, ya’ better use your hand. Uncle Tom told you-this one is BETTER THAN A BANKNOTE ‘CUZ THERE’S NO INFLATION.

    @ Cheerful #240

    You know EXACTLY who I’m talking about. Plus I’ve read even these even these dream marriages, Paul Newman, George Harrison-well they were allowed a little “therapeutic” time “off the leash”. No such on McCartney-but you did notice his (R I P ) Linda made it a point to be IN the band despite having a voice that made Yoko Ono sound good and a keyboard technique that an orangutan could mimic.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      No such on McCartney-but you did notice his (R I P ) Linda made it a point to be IN the band despite having a voice that made Yoko Ono sound good and a keyboard technique that an orangutan could mimic.

      Very true. Paul McCartney is a rare gem, though, re fidelity. Isn’t Keith Richards the same?

  • anonymous

    @ Obsidian
    “Again: you have much less to worry about along the lines of the smp than your uncles. Fact. Yet here you are, hand wringing with the best of em-for what?!?
    Please explain that to me. ”

    I’m not Ted, but I’ll sum it up for you;
    – Ted’s marriage ended in divorce.
    – He’s thinking pushing his kids to go to college might not be worth it.
    So, this SMP has already affected him and will probably his kids.

  • anonymous

    @ JQ
    “Using the Census Annual Current Population Survey(CPS) Supplement data to break down all persons ages 23-28 by marital status, race, and gender (in that order) tell an equally interesting picture in that it is equally heterogeneous. Reordering the variables is also instructive, in that it shows (aggregating across genders) every race, in those age groups, at almost all education levels, have at least 60% of their population unmarried.”

    I’m not sure that narrowing it down to that specific age bracket (23-28) is ideal because of the steady increase in delaying marriage.
    Perhaps a different age bracket will show a very different picture.
    ——————————-
    JQ:
    “(it should be noted, this is without breaking out Hispanic origin as the system does not do this by default). Breaking out Hispanic origin, never married whites with at least some college still dominate total number”

    Non-Hispanic whites with some college outnumber Hispanics with some college, so it would correlate that the number of unmarried NHW w/ some college would be higher.
    ——————-
    JQ: “if only because never married Hispanics probably have no more than a high school education.”

    This is anecdotal-
    From all of the Hispanics I know, the ones who haven’t attained HS, are more likely to cohabitate and have children OOW.

    Those who actually have degrees (bachelor/masters/PhDs- and unanimously all women) -if they didn’t either marry down or marry outside of their ethnicity and/or race, have remained single and childless. Three did marry but quickly divorced with no children. Of those, one remarried recently (has a PhD), the other 2 are still single and not actively looking anymore.
    Note: if they came from homes that supported higher education, those same homes didn’t support OOW births. Therefore, no marriage = no kids.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Thanks for de-lurking, I had to laugh at your comment. There were always a couple of dads in the elementary school who appeared to be about 75. They looked like great-grandfathers. In one case I knew of, the two kids of marriage #3 were his 5th and 6th. Sadly, wife #3 died before she turned 40, and he was left to manage as best he could. It was a very difficult situation.

    That is quite common in my country. There is a price to pay when you trade for a younger model. Of course depending on were it happens is considered a reason of pride “he still got it” or a reason to ridiculous “he is raising his grandchildren” also why dominican men never retire and travel the world or do fun stuff, like first world men they have new offspring every fifteen years or so.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @ Cheerful

    My heart soars this a m like a hawk at your words (ref Chief Dan George “Little Big Man”). Our own Gibran; I get weeks out of that one (Mark Twain).

    CAUTION re Paul and Keith. Linda was with him on the road to make sure he didn’t get off the leash; no mistake about that. As for Keith (and I’ll vouch for this as a Stones fan since 1964-yeah, I loved “Not Fade Away), the wives NEVER traveled on the road, which may suggest a certain lability in the dalliance dept. BTW I read where Bono’s wife (his girlfriend since jr. high) does not allow him back in the house for a week or so following a tour because his head is so inflated. One wonders.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      Interesting re Keith and Bono. It would hardly be surprising if women looked the other way with famous men. Being Bono’s #1 carries enormous privileges, and may in fact be quite a good deal for those women.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Obsidian – “Ted: like ms walsh and j, please dont take this the wrong way but, cry me a river. Youre hardly “working class” going by what you said to me regardless as to how hard you may try to wish yourself so and i maintain that you come a lot closer to murrays “bubble test” than i do-not only am actually a part of the working class as i speak i know what its like to spend major portions of my time being among people from that cohort. I seriously doubt if you can say the same, and while that in itself is no crime it does go to prove the whole point of commentary here. Again: you have much less to worry about along the lines of the smp than your uncles. Fact. Yet here you are, hand wringing with the best of em-for what?!?”

    My divorce was final about a year and a half ago. That led me to the manosphere, and eventually to HUS. I have two children, both of which will be dealing with this SMP full force in the coming years. I believe that is plenty of reason to be here, but thanks for asking.

    And its cool if your opinion of my class in society doesn’t match mine. I wont state exactly where I live in the greater Pittsburgh area, but I can tell you it is NOT a UMC neighborhood. I bought my current house for 30k cash, as a foreclosure, if that gives you an idea of the property values in my town. I live here because this is where I’m from. But, I’m not a minority, and I didn’t grow up in public housing, so I’m not going to argue what is or is not “working class”. I’ve done my share of cleaning out septic tanks and scrubbing bathrooms to put myself through college, so even though I may not be “poor white trash”, I certainly didn’t come from privilege.

    But none of that makes a rats ass bit of difference as to why I am here. I’m already divorced, so despite your assessment that my chances are so much better, it certainly didn’t turn out that way. Maybe I should have waited until all the local women realized I was so privileged?

  • Ramble

    Very true. Paul McCartney is a rare gem, though, re fidelity. Isn’t Keith Richards the same?

    I remember seeing a factoid in that most respected of sources, Maxim, that listed how many girls each of the Rolling Stones had slept with between 1966 and 1970 (or something like that, I don’t remember). The 2 guys with the fewest partners were Keith Richards and Mick Jagger.

    The most (and it was a number, which I have forgotten, that DWARFED the two lead men) was the drummer, Charlie Watts.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Obsidian,
    I live in the Greater Pittsburgh area too, and I can confirm what Ted is saying. From what I’ve seen, Pittsburgh is mostly segregated by race/ethnicity, but there are quite a few “poor white” areas (my BF’s family lives in one of them). When I was staying with them, a grad school friend came to pick me up one time and actually said she was afraid she’d get shot (which is preposterous, and is straight out of the mouth of a UMC girl… but the run-down houses must’ve given her this impression). As a whole, I’ve read somewhere that Pittsburgh is actually one of the poorer metropolitan areas in the country. Its history is certainly very different from, say, Philadelphia.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Olive – “When I was staying with them, a grad school friend came to pick me up one time and actually said she was afraid she’d get shot (which is preposterous, and is straight out of the mouth of a UMC girl… but the run-down houses must’ve given her this impression).”

    Its so funny when we have people from other offices come into town to visit. They can’t believe how travelling from the airport to our office near the Pittsburgh Mills Mall they see so many different types of town. You pass through all these rundown mill towns along the river corridor, but then you pass through Waterworks and Fox Chapel (where many of the Pittsburgh Penguins live) and it just doesn’t seem like part of the same city. I’ve heard the exact same comment from them, that they were afraid they would blow a tire somewhere and get mugged, and it made me laugh. I told him, ask a local. If THEY tell you to stay out, stay out!

    Most people don’t realize just how bad it got in Western PA when the steel mills closed shop. And despite the fact that Pittsburgh is now a hub for medical and technological jobs, it is still VERY much an old mill town. Slowly that is changing, but I live on the east side of town (actually just outside of Allegheny county past Blawnox and before Kitanning) and out this way things still look pretty damn grim. I have seen a lot of effort being put into finally knocking down all the abandoned houses and buildings in our area, so I have hope that my 30k investment will pay off a little after our children are through school and onto college. About that time my SO and I are planning our exit to places warmer. ;)

  • J

    ,i>Only my peer group never took them because we didn’t want the As in those classes to bring down our weighted GPAs and affect our college admissions.

    Too bad there was no pass/fail option. Those classes offer valuable life skills that UMC kids usually don’t learn at home because their parents often hire people to do them.

    I used to be a BSA den/troop leader. A lot of the merit badge skills are general life skills that most of my kids’ peers and their parents lacked. How can a dad who hires a lawn service teach a kid to maintain a lawnmower?

  • J

    Ted #262

    Rookie mistake, dude. You don’t need to qualify yourself to anyone, much less to someone who is trying to bait you.

    You are about to enter…dum-dum-dum…the Obsidian Zone. Don’t make me do my Rod Sterling imitation. Things’ll get ugly.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – “Rookie mistake, dude. You don’t need to qualify yourself to anyone, much less to someone who is trying to bait you.”

    I enjoy poking the bear sometimes. Plus, I occasionally get my jollies out of showing people their assumptions are full of shit. In the end, it doesn’t matter one bit if anyone believes a word I say here. I know that, but everyone gets their kicks differently. ;-)

  • J

    There were always a couple of dads in the elementary school who appeared to be about 75. They looked like great-grandfathers.

    My folks were older parents for their era; they had me at 32 and 40. Thank God, they were youthful and healthy.

    I had a friend whose dad was in his seventies and infirm when she was in high school; there were four younger sibs as well. They lived in poverty, and their dad was not a guide or protector, but a burden. Another friend lost her dad shortly after graduation; she was the second oldest kid in his second family. Both moms worked themselves into early decrepitude, supporting these old guys and their prematurely fatherless kids. For all the “Women age like milk; men age like wine” talk in the ‘sphere, marrying a much older man is a bad idea.

  • J

    OK, Ted. Enjoy!

  • JQ

    @anonymous in re 256:

    I clearly missed a correction when I went back and did the breakout of Hispanics prior to positing. Thank you for pointing it out. The breakdown of educational attainment for Hispanics 23-28 is confirmed by the CPS data.

    Never married whites of Hispanic origin (the overwhelming majority of never married Hispanics of any race by the Census definition) with at least a Bachelor’s are 387,000 out of 2.7 million. Adding in those with any college experience (not exactly accurate because most of these people do not have degrees and the data does not enable breaking out current students from those who have dropped out, non-traditionals, etc) accounts for another 746 thousand, which is less than half with a delta of approximately 400k.

    As to your other points, the Census data either does not appear speak to them or, alternatively, if you can generate a different set of inputs which shifts the story, feel free to post those inputs here and tell it.

    My overarching point here is not to get into a pedantic discussion of the Census data. It is that the data supports the conclusion that the reduction in the rate of marriage is not a problem unique to any particular social class and can be found in most communities.

  • J

    Munch #253

    Beautiful as always. Your wife is a fortunate woman to be loved so.

  • J

    Privateman #229

    I’m also an educator and a certified teacher. My take is sort of similar to yours. I see the public school movement in America, which really gained momentum around the turn of the last century, as a means of indoctrinating and assimilating the children of immigrants. The Irish were followed by large numbers of Italians, Jews, Poles and other white ethnics. They were “invading” America, and nativist WASPs needed to “protect democracy” from groups that they perceived as arnarchists and communists in their homelands. (Sounds over dramatic? Seriously, read Nativist propaganda from that era.) Additionally, these kids needed to be kept off the streets, taught English and conditioned to work in the factories that had sprung up after the Industrial Revolution. Schools not only taught the three Rs; they taught kids to respond to bells, raise their hands and wait till appropriate break times to pee.

    Even today, schools maintain that structure. If one adult is to keep a semblance of order among thirty kids, that adult needs to enforce those rules, respect the bells and keep kids from wandering the hallways. That, more than misandry, affects how schools are run. It is something of a historical accident that this system adversely affects a certain kind of boy more than it affects girls. Most girls can tolerate, even enjoy this environment. Many boys, especially the low keys ones, do fine. Some even excel, but many boys chafe at the confinement. Some shut down; others act out.

    As a teacher, I felt I had to enforce the rules in order allow the greatest number of kids to learn and to survive in the classroom myself. As a parent, I have not found my local public schools to really nurture my sons. We did a small, private grade school after being disappointed with local best school, which was reputed to be the best in the state. I hate my sons’ high school, also reputed to be “the best.”

    When last I went in “share my concerns,” I was assured that my older boy was extraordinarily bright and would skyrocket to success after leaving their institution. I remarked that their observations were probably accurate, but that it was a damn poor reflection on the school if they were indeed true. So it goes….

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – I share your views on our public schools. I wont stoke the fires here, but I can spend weeks talking about how bad the school system is in the U.S. overall, let alone how terrible it is for many boys, my son being one of them. I lucked out, I was a very laid back child and didn’t have issues “sitting still” and “behaving” as many of my male friends did. I pretty much worked out my concentration issues by 2nd grade, but I had friends that continued to struggle all the way through high school because the environment simply stifled them.

  • tvmunson

    @ Ramble # 263

    Charlie has been married for 47 years, so if true proves my point i e fidelity an expansive concept among the famous.

    @ Cheerful

    I suppose, if you can push out of your mind what he was doing with those ultr-hot chicks, or how long it will be before one turns his head around on the real.A man cannot be in 2 places; he leaves a little of himself each time he does this. Rita Hayworth once said she ‘d have given up everything-stardom, money, fame-to have had just one man truly love her, make a life with her. I think there is a kernel of what I am trying to get at in there.BTW Bono is supposedly some type of Christian, at least in “Killing Bono”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      if you can push out of your mind what he was doing with those ultr-hot chicks, or how long it will be before one turns his head around on the real.A man cannot be in 2 places; he leaves a little of himself each time he does this.

      That contradicts the claim that some have made here, which is that they can get some on the side without negatively affecting their primary relationship at all.

  • anonymous

    @ JQ
    “My overarching point here is not to get into a pedantic discussion of the Census data. It is that the data supports the conclusion that the reduction in the rate of marriage is not a problem unique to any particular social class and can be found in most communities.”

    If that’s how my post came across, it’s not what I meant. I agree that it’s not a racial problem, as I see it, it’s societal, political, legal, economical, cultural, … (and I’m expanding beyond never-marrieds to include divorcees, children OOW, etc.)
    I pointed out in another post that regardless of the cause/s or motivation behind some factors, the result of destroying the family structure is the same and things will get worse if we continue on this trajectory.

    I understand why Obsidian is frustrated since there’s no one directly addressing the African-American community. I’m not sure how that specific demographic can be addressed.
    I do think that ignoring what’s happened in the AA community isn’t wise because they have been the canary in the coal mine.

  • Ramble

    That contradicts the claim that some have made here, which is that they can get some on the side without negatively affecting their primary relationship at all.

    I have known at least one guy who cheated on his wife multiple times. The sex did not make him feel guilty, but the cheating did. I understand that probably does not make any sense, but what he meant was that he never felt any closer to the girls he slept with nor any further from his wife.

    But, knowing that he had been unfaithful to a girl who had done nothing to deserve it, that ate him up inside.

  • tvmunson

    @ Cheerful

    We’ve been through this. (“On Infidelty” I and II). Yes, it is a male fantasy, in fact the big one (others include strippers, hookers et al are college girls working there way through school; yeah, probably fewer % wise than Rhodes Scholars in the NFL). I know guys who do this; not sure who the gals are. If not actual prostitutes, these chippies confound me. The guys feel as long as I don’t fall in love and wreck my marriage, WTF? And indeed there were wives back in the day who were cool, at least if it was done discreetly away from Boise. You can’t tell me it doesn’t affect there marriage; sex with someone outside the marriage opens a portal to infection (literal and rhetorical), drains the essential essence of the marriage compact by diluting the intimacy it contains, will split a man’s consciousness in half and prevent him from proper focus. And that’s the best that can happen. It usually is just matter of time before the man’s head follows his dick and he gets a divorce, if he doesn’t get busted before, giving his wife and kids the trauma of a lifetime.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      OK, thanks for refreshing my memory. I try but am unable to hold each and every comment in my addled brain.

  • tvmunson

    @ Ramble

    Ate him up each of the multiple times he did it? What do you mean the sex didn’t bother him “but the cheating did”? The SEX WAS THE CHEATING. which girl was he sorry he hurt-his wife or his paramour? You suggest he betrayed them both.
    No it does not make sense because it is complete,raw, utter,absolute, unmitigated, unrefined, undiluted, grass-still-in-the-turds BULLSHIT!

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “That contradicts the claim that some have made here, which is that they can get some on the side without negatively affecting their primary relationship at all.

    I have known at least one guy who cheated on his wife multiple times. The sex did not make him feel guilty, but the cheating did. I understand that probably does not make any sense, but what he meant was that he never felt any closer to the girls he slept with nor any further from his wife.

    But, knowing that he had been unfaithful to a girl who had done nothing to deserve it, that ate him up inside.”

    One of my closest friends is in this boat. He has had issues being faithful his entire life, and in all that time he says he has never become emotionally attached to his “on the side” sex partners. He did, however, say that at times he became physically addicted to them because of the kind of sex he had with them. (Most were of the kinky variety, which is primarily why he cheated so much. He does NOT want relationships with such women, but loves the kind of physical connection they make) He never once felt any less love and affection for his SO at the time either, and despite all this cheating managed to stay in a few relationships for some time. He is a few years older than me, and at this point is trying his best to leave all that behind. I do my best to support him, but I honestly think his “addiction” to kinky sex is close to a real drug addiction. It would be fine if he could get that from his SO, but his mental issue there follows my general thinking: He respects and loves her too much to treat her that way, and is afraid that if he DID treat her that way, that he would lose feelings for her, or not be able to see her the same way. I totally understand where he is coming from on that note, and it is a tough thing to overcome.

  • tvmunson

    @ Cheerful

    Not meant in criticism, more of a plug.Those 2 were a while ago and long long long. Plus we’ll be revisiting these themes again and again, like someone with a severe case of acne pops pimples.

  • anonymous

    Ted, Olive

    Whenever I come across -steel and Pittsburgh- the song “Maniac” from the movie Flashdance pops into my head. lol

    Getting back to the topic, I don’t think the SMP problems are limited to the lowest socioeconomic classes anymore. Instead, what used to be a common in the lower classes a few decades ago (thru a myriad of social/economic factors), is now making ‘its way up the social ladder into the middle-class, many times through choice, which is boggling.

    FWIW, I don’t see the very top, the wealthiest upper crust, as having had stable marriages- now or in the past. (Lots of divorces, remarriages, trading up)
    It’s only the UMC that, as a group, has the stablest of unions (at least once there are kids involved).

  • Ramble

    What do you mean the sex didn’t bother him “but the cheating did”? The SEX WAS THE CHEATING.

    Munson, I thought I had explained that bit, but, I will try again.

    The act of having sex with those girls no more bothered him than getting a massage (with NO happy ending). It was a physical act that felt good.

    However, he did understand that it was cheating and that it was wrong and hurtful. That bothered him…but, he kept doing it. Ultimately, he went to therapy and, I think, told his wife that he was going for work stress.

    And, Munson, I am not trying to defend his thoughts or feelings, but I thought some here would be interested.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “FWIW, I don’t see the very top, the wealthiest upper crust, as having had stable marriages- now or in the past. (Lots of divorces, remarriages, trading up)
    It’s only the UMC that, as a group, has the stablest of unions (at least once there are kids involved).”

    I agree. The trouble is, the UMC is shrinking, and as more couples fall into the LMC and below, all the issue down there affect them. In addition, I agree that those same issues are creeping upward towards what is left of the UMC.

  • anonymous

    @ Susan: “That contradicts the claim that some have made here, which is that they can get some on the side without negatively affecting their primary relationship at all.”

    In the words of Billy Joel;
    “It’s just a fantasy, whoa, whoa-o,
    it’s not the real thing ……..
    but sometimes a fantasy is all you need”

  • tvmunson

    @ Ted

    He is your friend, so you support him. If you want to beieve he has an “addiction”, fine.You “totally understand where he is coming from” i e he has kinky sex on the side (and fidelity issues all his life) as an outlet from his marriage but he is actual preserving it doing this because if he did it with her he’d lose respect for her and “not see her the dame way”.

    Did you see “Juraissic Park”? Well, this compares to the gigantic steaming mound of triceratops shit Sam O’Neill stuck his arm into, although Sam did pull out something useful.

  • tvmunson

    @ Ramble

    Sex for him “was a physical act that felt good”. Oh, ok , now I got it. Thanks for clearing that up.Did everyone else get that too?
    Well, Ramble, sex and certain other “physica acts” that feel good when done outside the marriage are cheating.If you can discern a line here, ok; I can’t. You cannot separate the physical act from its moral, social, psychogical and spiritual consequences. We are human beings, not barnyad animals.

  • Ted D

    Munson – You “totally understand where he is coming from” i e he has kinky sex on the side (and fidelity issues all his life) as an outlet from his marriage but he is actual preserving it doing this because if he did it with her he’d lose respect for her and “not see her the dame way

    No sir. I understand that he doesn’t feel comfortable treating his wife like a slut. (his words, but i get it.) I’m not trying to defend him, and have told him to his face how much I am against cheating. He agrees with me on it, yet spent years cheating anyway. He is a good guy otherwise, and truly is my best male friend on earth.

    My point here is that for him, the act of having sex with other women did NOT change how he felt about his wife. (or GF depending on time period). He never felt the urge to leave her, and never found himself emotionally involved with the mistress. (although the last mistress DID get attached, and it scared him straight, so far…)

    I don’t agree with any of it. And my “support” consists of trying to keep him away from kinky sluts. If that is all I can do, so be it.

  • Ramble

    Well, Ramble, sex and certain other “physica acts” that feel good when done outside the marriage are cheating.

    And he understood that.

    If you can discern a line here, ok

    When did I ever say that I was drawing, or discerning, a line? I was simply communicating an anecdote that was, hopefully, relevant to the discussion.

  • anonymous

    @ Munson

    Sending prayers your way, hang in there.
    ———————
    “indeed there were wives back in the day who were cool, at least if it was done discreetly away from Boise.”

    I’ve seen plenty of wives looking the other way in my life, outside of Idaho. The women would stay because of how unacceptable divorce was in their community/family, because they wanted to maintain appearances, because of financial dependence, because they wanted the kids to continue having 2 parents…. simply put, for the convenience of it, but when it came to LOVE,
    the love for the husband went right out the window.
    And the kids almost always find out eventually and lose all respect for their father. *
    And, God forbid, the cheating husband develops health issues somewhere down the line, dear wifey will have her payback day.

    My experience is limited to cheating husbands because when there were cheating wives, the marriages were over as soon as the cat was out of the bag.

    * Sidenote: (Admittedly, I haven’t read any evo-psych books, so I only know what I’ve read through hearsay, er, readsay? on blogs, but anyway…
    I always wonder why children are left out of evo-psych equation, despite all of the talk about reproduction, it’s all about the male and female reproductive agenda and not how any of it affects kids.)

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “despite all of the talk about reproduction, it’s all about the male and female reproductive agenda and not how any of it affects kids.”

    My guess? Because humans are naturally selfish, and despite the fact that cheating can very well lead to divorce, which is bad for children, I suspect most cheaters don’t give it much thought until after the fact, or after they are caught. I believe many have a “if they don’t know it can’t hurt them” outlook, which I’ve always seen as pure BS.

  • anonymous

    @ Ted
    “My point here is that for him, the act of having sex with other women did NOT change how he felt about his wife. (or GF depending on time period). He never felt the urge to leave her, and never found himself emotionally involved with the mistress. (although the last mistress DID get attached, and it scared him straight, so far…)”

    Similar to this woman on Athol’s blog who keeps her own blog where she teaches others how to get some on the side.
    She meets up with random men she picks up online while her husband is oblivious, she doesn’t plan to leave him, claims to have a “good marriage” (ha ha HA HA),
    sorry couldn’t keep my composure there…
    she claims she loves her husband but needs to do kinky stuff with a variety of c*cks. She has NO emotional attachments to these other men (nor her husband), no plan to get a divorce.
    Reading her blog makes one’s stomach do somersaults.
    Frankly, I couldn’t keep a friendship with a person like that. I’d have no respect and loads of distrust for the person, but that’s just me.

  • J

    Ted–

    Actually, both my sons are pretty laid back, but neither will do work that doesn’t make sense to them. They are both strongly internally motivated and don’t respond to exterior motivations like grades, awards, rewards and punishments.

    I wanted them to be their own men. Much to their detriment, I succeeded.

  • anonymous

    @ Ted
    “My guess? Because humans are naturally selfish, and despite the fact that cheating can very well lead to divorce, which is bad for children, I suspect most cheaters don’t give it much thought until after the fact, or after they are caught. I believe many have a “if they don’t know it can’t hurt them” outlook, which I’ve always seen as pure BS.”

    Oh, I know it’s pure selfishness talking.
    What I’m wondering is if evo-psych touches the *offspring agenda*, because I’ve never see it get mentioned.
    What I’ve seen is that even tiny tots want their parents together, so I have strong opposition to following the adult agenda if it’s REALLY supposed to be about having offspring.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Anon 295 – “Similar to this woman on Athol’s blog who keeps her own blog where she teaches others how to get some on the side.
    She meets up with random men she picks up online while her husband is oblivious, she doesn’t plan to leave him, claims to have a “good marriage” (ha ha HA HA),”

    You mean Kat? I went to her site after I saw her post on MMSL, and it made me sick. But yes, I imagine my friend works in a similar mindset, although he does care for and love his wife a great deal. I believe that, and I have seen it more than heard it from him. I really do feel bad for him sometimes, but to me honoring your commitments is more important than personal happiness when it comes right down to it. I don’t know how he can ever completely rectify his issues, but perhaps with age will come less testosterone and less sex drive. Its been about 2 years since he has been “clean and sober” from his need for sex on the side, and so far all has been well.

    It helps that although he certainly isn’t getting the crazy stuff at home he used to on the side, he has started to ask his wife questions about what she is willing and comfortable doing in the bedroom, and to his surprise she is willing to stretch her boundaries some. I doubt he will ever take it to the max (I can tell you he always got with slutty women because of the kind of “acts” they would allow. Not the most disgusting that can be found on the ‘net, but think vanilla hard-core porn stuff), but perhaps just a bit more variety and age will be enough to keep him satisfied.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “What I’m wondering is if evo-psych touches the *offspring agenda*, because I’ve never see it get mentioned.”

    Well, from a evo-psych slant, I believe the primary goal (at least for men) is to simply spread seed far and wide. I believe that pair bonding is probably an adaptive trait that came well after we were human-like, which means that sometime in our earlier history, we probably weren’t so concerned with the long-term viability of our children (again, at least the male perspective) and were more concerned with just making as many as possible.

    Besides, the primary motivation for sex isn’t children. It is that sex feels great. Children are a side-effect, biologically speaking.

  • J

    I do think that ignoring what’s happened in the AA community isn’t wise because they have been the canary in the coal mine.

    You have a point, but I’m not sure how valid the comments of a bunch of white or Asian UMC folks about AA SMP problems really are, or how valid those comments will be to someone who does not accept that some of us do indeed come from working class backgrounds.

    Besides, I’m not sure how much of that was an honest request for input and how much was just angry remonstration. At any rate, there is some real bigotry in the ‘sphere that I feel is far more problematic than HUS being UMC heavy. UMC people are going to talk about UMC problems. LMC people are going to talk about LMC problems. Dog owners
    are going to talk about dog-related problems. It’s natural that people discuss their own circumstances.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      UMC people are going to talk about UMC problems. LMC people are going to talk about LMC problems. Dog owners
      are going to talk about dog-related problems. It’s natural that people discuss their own circumstances.

      Agreed. I’ve also been accused of being heteronormative here. As if I’m morally obligated to write not what I know, or not for an audience who may find my stuff relevant, but for the whole world.

  • anonymous

    @ J
    “Besides, I’m not sure how much of that was an honest request for input and how much was just angry remonstration. At any rate, there is some real bigotry in the ‘sphere that I feel is far more problematic than HUS being UMC heavy. UMC people are going to talk about UMC problems. LMC people are going to talk about LMC problems. ”

    Isn’t angry remonstration a regular on the ‘sphere. ;-) (heck even I feel like it at times)
    The way I see it, the lower classes have had these problems for a long while now with no resolution, it’s too complex to fix overnight (some of it is unfixable, I think.)
    Each demographic is going to relate/be concerned with what they see in their own circles, that understandable, so I don’t see a problem with the UMC discussing how it affects them.
    What I’m saying is that some of the discussions on these blogs go by the premise that these problems/solutions are new.
    You know, kind of like young people think their generation invented anal or group sex.
    IMO, it’s important to look outside of one’s little circle to what has/hasn’t worked for others (other cultures/eras) who have already been in similar situations.

  • anonymous

    @ Ted

    Yes, Kat. UGH! yes, her!
    The deception to herself and her husband just makes me sick.
    ——————
    “to me honoring your commitments is more important than personal happiness when it comes right down to it.”

    And perhaps if one tried, one can achieve BOTH honoring commitments and happiness simultaneously as in;

    “he started to ask his wife questions about what she is willing and comfortable doing in the bedroom, and to his surprise she is willing to stretch her boundaries some.”

    I’m not surprised, she may have been desiring some variety herself. Who woulda thunk madonna may actually like a little kinky slut action with her husband.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ j, ted, olive, anonymous, et al:

    Ok first off-j, did i piss in a bowl of your corn flakes in a past life or something? Your many snarky/snide remarks/insults aimed at me gives me the distinct impression that this is just a weebit personal. Wanna talk about-or do you want to give my argument even more credibility by your weak attepmpts at ad hominem? Hmm?

    As for everyone else-i am going by the data, which ms walsh herself has noted on well more than one occasion. Lets try this again shall we?-the single biggest losers of the smp these days are the working/lower classes. They have higher divorce rates, higher breakup rates when they do cohabit, than anyone else and this is especially true when it comes to the socalled “umc” fact.

    So, while teds story is interesting to read it doesnt change one iota my position-and please note that j, for all his/her/its pithy oneliners, has yet to actually address my proposition, since she/he/it was so intent to hyporcritically hijack/derail the conversation and turn it into a referendum about ms lori gottlieb; and that is this in case he/she/it missed it the first time:

    Neither lori gottlieb, nor roissy, have little if anything to say of real utility, to me. Moreover, neither even considers people like me to be on their radar screens. If they both have one thing in common, its that theyre white and at least solidly middle class if not above. Where do i fit in such a scheme?

    Now, since j has so much to say, she/he/it can address what ive actually just said-is what ive said true or false?

    Anyway, going back to ted-while its regrettable that you went through a divorce youll want to note that divorce is possible among the upper classes-just not at anywhere near the rates that occur among the working classes. Moreover, wrt your kids, their chances actually look quite good when compared with their working class counterparts. Finally the fact that you mentioned an “so” says that you were able to bounce back in relatively short order-again something that we know for a fact is not at all the case for working class guys. Finally, and this brings us round robin to my central point made earlier upthread, at the end of the day you had places to go to vent, commiserate with others and finally to find help and solutions; the working classes, nada.

    So j’s consternation notwithstanding, i have and continue to make a heck of a valid point, and the fact that he/she/it cannot address it straight up (nor has anyone else done so incl ms walsh herself) really tells one all they need to know wrt this aspect of the discussion. Please do not hate the outside observer for daring to engage in a bit of real rap.

    But you can holla back if youre so inclined… ;)

    O.

  • anonymous

    @ Obsidian
    “at the end of the day you had places to go to vent, commiserate with others and finally to find help and solutions; the working classes, nada. ”

    Obsidian, is there a place/way where an outlet CAN be provided for the working class? any ideas, I can’t come up with any that don’t include the govt.
    People have lost interest in the church because the churches have lost touch with the people. The law isn’t supporting the family structure, the schools aren’t addressing these issues, the media is too PC, …….

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @j:
    Just catching your comment above; whew! Lets address it:

    First off if you had spent more time actually reading what i said instead of just blindly kneejerk reacting to me the person (which does indeed say quite a bit about you…hmm…) you wouldnve missed the part where i specifically mentioned one mr charles murray, author of the rcently published “coming apart” which deals specifically/exclusive with working class white people. So everything you attempted to say wrt what you think i said about black folks is utterly null and void-what i said about gottlieb and roissy would not change one jot if obsidian from north philly were sean from fishtown or kenzo or tacony or little italy in south philly. So, try again.:)

    Second, youre wrong about the notion that the umc merely discusses the umc and the wc only discusses the wc-the truth is, that the umc talks quite a bit about the wc. The problem is, just thati they talk about the wc (especially males of that cohort) but they rarely if ever talk to them-which again goes right to the heart of my points made earlier wrt gottlieb/roissy etc et al. The approach is at turns coldly objectifying and clinical, to insultingly paternalistic and desultory. And through it all, very little attention is given to actually assisting said classes, whom we know for a fact are the hardest hit-it all comes off as really macabre to me, when the umc isnt doing its navel-gazing-on-steroids thing.

    Third, i had to chuckle when you attempted to suss out whether my sincerity was legitimate or not; as if the merits of my argument, again informed by the same data ms walsh uses herself, isnt enough. What i have found is that if youre black and/or an outsider in any other way (in this instance class) youre far and away more subject to such things; meanwhile, guys like roissy can have his writings examined and parsed out, while people like you and ramble go on and on debating the fine points of someone like ms gottliebs diatribes. The whole thing would be a heck of a kneeslapper if it werent so very sad. You really cant make this stuff up.

    J, how about this-lets agree that what i said-again based on what folks like ms walsh and mr murray themselves have said-is basically unassailable, and call it a day, hmm? You are not acquitting yourself well here.

    But if you insist, you can holla back… ;)

    O.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Susan, wow, that’d be like me going to a blog about sports and telling them they have to write about video games. Just plain silly.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @anonymous (& ms walsh):
    To the best of my knowledge, there is no such outlets, online or off, that caters to the working class demographic, despite the mountain of evidence that they are in need of the most help. From the mainstream media to the seduction community and ecerything in between, the focus is almost strictly on the middle class and above, and for a major reason:

    Money. Consultants, be they paul carrick brunson or mystery, dont come cheap and the plain truth of it is that they in it to make money which the middle classes and above have, even now.

    Ms walsh: no one is saying that you specifically must write about what you know little about; rather, mine is a more comprehensive view and look at the “spheres” that ive been a (begrudging) part of over the past few years, and just have decided to make a few pointed observations from that standpoint. The gay/lesbian people who take issue with you need to be honest about the fact that they have at least as much resources, if not more, than you have; what i am saying is that guys like me, do not, and i can back that up with proof and evidence. Nor does there seem to be any interest in seeing that such guys get any such assistance. Putting it just that way really does put everything guys say, at roissys, or elsewhere throughout the manosphere say(s), into some sharp perspective, dont you agree?

    Finally: we also have data that among the biggest cohort of never marrieds, are working class guys. The nyt talked about this a few years back, and that, was that. Compare and contrast with the deluge of what ms walsh has coined “spinster lit”…

    …and holla back…

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      The gay/lesbian people who take issue with you need to be honest about the fact that they have at least as much resources, if not more, than you have; what i am saying is that guys like me, do not, and i can back that up with proof and evidence. Nor does there seem to be any interest in seeing that such guys get any such assistance.

      Let me ask you something. What would you like to see? If I stop wringing my hands, you’ll be no closer to your own goals. So what’s the answer to the dilemma?

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @hope:
    You can take potshots at what you think my position on the matter is; it only serves to strengthen said position on its merits. Whether you or anyone else here or elsewhere likes it or not, i have raised a number of highly legitimate questions and issues, and no amount of ad hominem potshot taking is going to change that.

    For example: we know that ms walshs marriage isnt in danger of falling apart; and we know that her daughter will, in all likelihood, do well out there on the smp. After all the hand wringing and gnashing at teeth angst that always comes with parenthood, this is the case, so says all available data (and mind you, ms walsh herself has alluded to said data herself at numerous points on this very blog).

    Meanwhile, we simply must ask: where do guys like me go? That, is a powerful question that simply will not go away, regardless as to how many potshots we may want to take at the querent.

    Oh, and for the record, i have posed the same question to mr brunson, and got a veritable deer-in-the-headlights look “response”-i remind those who may not know, that he is black like me, but a lot closer to ms walsh/many-if-not-all of you. I trust you get my point.

    Hope, ive often read where you would relate many of your schooling years; please allow me to relate a bit of my own.

    From a young age, i have found that when i tend to pose questions others can and often will get upset, sometimes violently so. Many of my teachers would attempt to have me removed (for the record many if not most of them were indeed white) rather than grapple with the questions i presented to them. Ive come to find in the many years hence, that so very often, my posing such questions can be and often is quite threatening to the worldview others hold. This is understandable and for what its worth i can dig it; and so i am not mad at your own reaction(s) to what i have said.

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @j:
    I just wanted to point out that ive addressed the bigotry in the manosphere on numerous occasions and from a variety of angles and are easily found via google search. I dont disagree with what youve said there.

    Second, ive never not accepted what ted has said because i didnt believe he came from a working class background; my point, i thought, was quite clear-that he is not now working class and hasnt been for some time, which is accurate. Big difference.

    O.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Obsidian, with all due respect, you’re making a huge strawman about me. I was responding to the idea that Susan should talk about gays and lesbians.

    Remember, I come from developing world poverty. If we’re going to flaunt our poor upbringings, my mom worked as a waitress and housecleaner for years to keep us afloat. When I was a kid I took baths monthly in the winter, and boiled water over a stoked coal oven. I’ve lived in tons of places with ginormous cockroaches, and lived for years in places with lead paint.

    My first boyfriend was a black guy from a single mother family and from a low working class background. Both of us basically got full rides to college because we kept good grades and had decent SAT scores. I don’t buy the “if you’re poor then nobody’s going to help you” story you keep spinning. I received a lot of help when I was younger, as did the other poor minorities I knew. I did date two men who never went to college, not even associate’s degrees, but they had skills and worked at it.

    I know so many people who would love to switch positions with you, or any of the lower class kids anywhere in America. They would work their butt off and get somewhere. I used to know a wonderful black woman who came here from Africa. She saw her brothers and her parents get killed. She was extremely poor but worked her way into middle class, and she was working for a top 20 private university. I never heard her complain about her station in life. She was married to a good man and had kids.

    The immigrant class is not imaginary. We exist, we know the meaning of poverty, and we will never forget. We aren’t going to complain about our lot in life, because we know it could be so, so much worse.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Hello hope,
    While i see what youre saying, lets be clear: your ostensible “only responding to the gay comments” remark was in truth really about my comments, since j made a stink about them. I know women tend to be a bit more indirect about such things but like my whiskey, i like my convos to be straight, no chaser.

    Moreover your attempts to shutdown a very needed aspect of the discussion by recounting your immigrant experiences (& those of others) will avail you naught, for a very simple reason: not only do i have data on my side, i have the experience of years of observation about venues like these to boot. In short, as ive told j, what im saying here is for all intents, unassailable. That you attempt to shoot the messenger instead of honestly grapping with the message speaks volumes to the efficacy of all i have said here.

    Like i said, ive found that a well placed, hard hitting question, is truly mightier than the sword…

    O.

  • Ted D

    “I’m not surprised, she may have been desiring some variety herself. Who woulda thunk madonna may actually like a little kinky slut action with her husband.”

    That was never the issue. His primary concern, the one I said I understand, is that by exploring his kink with his wife he is concerned that his feelings for her will change for the worse. So far, so good. But they are just at the tip of the iceberg. Time will tell how this works out, but I’m rooting for them.

  • Ted D

    Obsidian – cool. Since I’m not affected I can disregard what you have to say. Easier for both of us. ;-)

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ted,
    I have no problem personally with what you choose to regard or disregard; my point remains the same, and to date no one, including you, has yet to refute or even directly, address it.

    So perhaps its a good thing you do what you said you would do above. ;)

    O.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Obsidian, funny thing is, I think the “lower class” men are relevant to this discussion, since they’re also in the same pool. I certainly dated some. Not homosexuals though.

    So no sneaky snark from me. Just because J and I are both female doesn’t mean I have to back up everything she says. I do like her a whole lot, and would definitely agree with her on most subjects.

    I think you have an awful way of presenting your arguments, which is why few here want to discuss things with you. I doubt I’ll be responding to you again, unless you quit telling me what I intended to say. I can speak for myself, tyvm.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @hope,
    You know what, im willing to try to be reasonable about this, and to try to see things from your side of the aisle. Fair enough?

    So, first, please allow me to ask-how do you see working class men as relevant to the convo, and why do you use quotation marks when desrcibing them? Doing suggests that you take a differing view somehow; please explain?

    Second, since so many seem to hold the view you do, that the manner in which i present myself impedes the ability to have what i say considered, may i ask exactly what do you see about my manner off putting?

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh,
    Excellent questions. I will try to answer.

    1. I think that its important, before any attempts at palliative measures being made, that those who spend lots of time talking about the working classes (not you but folks like murray et al) actually go and spend time talking to them. This is where i have to give edin and kafalas, the lady authors of the book promises i can keep, i heck of a lot of credit-like murray, they focused on fishtown-like areas of my hometown philly; but very unlike murray, edin and kafalas spent a heck of a lot of time up close and personal actually seeing life as the women they studied saw it. On this i again, give them a standing ovation.

    The problem though with their approach, was that it completely left out the voices of the men in those cohorts; they were talked about, but not much talked to. Ive actually spoken to edin and kafalas about this and got the brunson response lol. It was if i had an eye in the middle of my forehead or something. It simply did not occur to the authors to actually take any time talking to the men that they did in talking to the women. It just went to prove what f roger devlin talked about when he discussed and explained what a womans “erotic field of view” was. For the most part many lower class guys simply are invisible to women. White noise, if you will.

    Ms walsh, i dont think you truly understand what its like to go through life and not see yourself not only being represented in discussions that obtain like these, but worse, for you not even to be considered. No one asks me and mine what we do or dont think about anything. And if we are discussed its usually in terms of being a nuisance or a problem to be “fixed”, usually by a healthy bit of finger-wagging naughty boy scolding.

    So many assumptions are made about me and mine; so many snap judgments conjured up and foisted on us in the blink of an eye. For example, in my own life, ive seen firsthand what its like to be written off as a potential suitor, purely on the basis of what i did for a living. Nothing else (in those instances; as ive said upthread the sheer out-and-out bigotry against short(er) men by women in the dating market is well documented yet rarely called out as such; indeed if anything, social researchers and the like seem to have a kind of nonchalant view of it all)-even when, as it so often turns out, that im better well-read than my “judges” who had the benefit (and time) of more formal education. And thats just for starters. No, i dont expect you to “do” anything about that; i mention it to give a bit of context as to exactly what at least some of my cohort are facing out there, often alone, and which never seems to make the rounds of msm outlets or blogs and the like. Their side never gets told. No one even cares to ask.

    What do i want? I want to be seen as human and not as a dot on a graph of data, viewed only in that context. After all, as one of tevere’s daughters (the one who married the tailor and moved to nyc) said in fiddler on the roof, even a poor man deserves happiness.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      Fair enough. I think you know that I see you as human, but you are right – there is great stratification (or bifurcation) in our society, and I know little of the problems the working class faces. Nor do I feel qualified to address those problems.

      You had a huge following at TOF – and yet your audience was not working class. I’m not sure you know how to reach out either.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Obsidian, I put “working class” in quotes because you put it in quotes before, and because I don’t really know your definition of it. My own definition of it would be no (American) college education and working lower-wage jobs, and often worrying about the bare essentials like food, groceries, and clothing. I have lived that and would not look down on anyone who does.

    How do I see them as relevant to the conversation? Because a lot of men these days don’t go to college. Believe me I’ve met a lot of them. Some of them dropped out of college. Others simply took a different life path. I knew a construction worker type of guy whose family history is in construction. A lot of these guys play video games, too, which is also how I have met them. I consider them my peers, and I was more than willing to date them, if they weren’t caddish.

    I think class is not the real issue, but culture is. The working/lower classes can make it work with traditional values, and they often do in other countries. The very poor in small villages in a third world or developing country still get married often as virgins, and they live on a few dollars per day or less. A lower class/working class American man would be seen as a great catch to them. Since I mentioned I mingle in some immigrant circles, I know a few guys who got a wife from abroad, or a daughter of more recent immigrants, first generationers.

    Anyway, I think the other reason lower class/working class men aren’t on these forums posting about these subjects is that they just can’t be bothered. A lot of them are shooting it up in Call of Duty or Battlefield, or raiding in World of Warcraft after a long day at construction (my husband raids with such a fellow). This guy doesn’t really care to talk at length about much. He isn’t a philosopher, and he doesn’t look up the same theorycrafting stuff on his characters that the rest of us nerds look over. He had to be pulled aside and told what to do to min/max his character. I highly doubt he would have the patience to read through these pages upon pages of discussions about the SMP. Just a hunch.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @hope:
    Thanks for the clarification. Im not as certain as you are that working class guys, in aggregate, just “couldnt be bothered”. As ive noted/pointed out to ms walsh, i think the jurys still out as to exactly what working class guys think, if for no other reason than because we havent spent any time actually talking to them in any serious sense (read: actual studies) to know for sure.

    Having said that, im also self-aware to know that im a rare (and some, perhaps you included, would say, a strange) bird, and that tempers things a bit for me; still, what ive said about these things still have merit. As always though, the devil is in the details.

    So, in many ways, what im talking about is really on the side of researchers, talking heads and the like, and examining their biases and blindspots (please note what i said to ms walsh wrt edin and kafalas for example). That, is where i think the rubber really hits the road.

    Holla back

    O.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @ anonymous

    Thanks.

    @ Ted

    The French have a saying: “To understand all is to forgive all.” Change forgive to condone, and that may have been how I interpreted your remarks. You say you do not condone, and have urged him to stop. In this I hope you are successful. Even a cursory reading of your description of him shows him to have profound issues. But be careful; men engage in this fantasy that sex can be totally divorced from every other aspect of the human consciousness. Unwittingly, this makes a beast of the man AND an object of the women he uses. This is evil. Somewhere we lost the idea of “sin”; we replaced it with the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, where even being a brat now is an “illness” which needs medication. The sex your friend engages in is not the problem; it is the putrefaction that issues forth from the lesions in his soul. Your friend is not ill; he is committing evil acts. Beware in your friendship that you lean to far to help; be censorious, not understanding. I submit he has already suffered considerable consequences. Far worse await him, and his innocent family. He must stop this-now.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Somewhere we lost the idea of “sin”; we replaced it with the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, where even being a brat now is an “illness” which needs medication

      We’ve even gone beyond that. We’re normalizing mental illness as normal and even fun! In combing the research for interesting findings, I often see promiscuity, for both men and women, categorized as mentally disordered. The literature pulls no punches about the personality traits, hormonal effects and even genetic mutations that explain such behavior. Yet many champion the positive aspects of promiscuity.

      Lately I’ve been seeing more romanticization of the Dark Triad traits as well. Psychologists consider them bad, bad news, marks of bad character, and yes, mental illness. But reports that all women get wet for these traits has men tapping into their inner sociopath.

  • Jackie

    @Counselor Munson (#323)

    As always, your words are being clipped and saved for the “Wisdom Files.” I make sure to read every word you write. :)

    By the way, Uncle T, how are you doing? You are in the thoughts, hopes and prayers of many, many more people than you realize.

    Kindest wishes to you & Mrs M–

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh,
    Wrt the o-files: yes, what you say is most true-it had/continues to enjoy a major “crossover” appeal, not only in terms of socioeconomic class, but also in terms of race and gender-at least half of the readers/commenters are female.

    But youre also right-trying to get my working class brethren on board is a challenge, something ive been giving much more thought to in as many months, as a result of a number of things ive witnessed over the past few months in particular, as well as that which ive noted more generally. Im still working on it and i suspect itll be an ongoing work in progress as i attempt to square the circle so to speak.

    Thank you btw for the kind comment. You dont need me to tell you just how much the dating market can be brutal on ones psyche; but often, the convo is couched or framed in female terms, ie, how it impacts women, and how they view it. Rarely does it consider the male point of view, regardless of class considerations.

    O.

  • Rum

    I will not say, “Some of my best friends are Black” because it is not entirely true. However I did spend a lot of quality time with a fellow Intern of that coloration and a B. guy at work is one of the very few that I can talk with about Game Theory with any awkward preleminaries. He is a natural and can explain the mechanisms as well as Roissy.
    The message is the same from both sources: The male/female thing looks different when you are poor and/or black – in ways that rich white people have a great deal of difficulty to understand.
    I take it all at face value and listen for learning.
    In reference to the cad vs dad test: What kind of fool would take seriously what anyone says about their notch count? Especially when “oral doesn’t count” or “I never got her name so forget her”… etc.
    I am, in my own way, an extremely moral person and I feel a positive duty to lie about this kind of thing on a regular basis. There are other people who need protecting, for one thing.
    It is harder to fake digit length ratios and the hottness of current sig others. If you are looking for honest data,

  • Rum

    without awkward preliminaries

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @rum:
    Just curious-are your comments directed towards me?

    O.

  • Rum

    Obs
    I have not read much of your stuff since you left roissy-land. So nothing I say can be directed at obs – who is nowadays a stranger. But I talk everyday to Trevis from S. Louisiana every day. He has fine wife and he raises pit bulls on the side. We trade guns occasionally. With and without readable serial numbers. Huhhar..Huhhar..HHuuh.
    He stands up tall in the bosses face and tells them I am their day to day savioir. When he needs it, I say he is absolutely indespensible to getting the real work done and that many,many of the best people would bolt if you fuckers even thoought replaceing him.
    Sorry; I got carried away a bit,,,,

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @ Jackie

    I was just going to email you caught your post. I go to Seattle to meet with the University of Washington medical team to discuss my case. This is many different groups-Fred Hutchinson, Virginia Mason, Seattle Cancer Center-all tied into the U of W. Updates as they come in.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    RE: The Class Issue

    I was born in 1952 and saw the post WWII prosperity in its bloom. It was an anomaly created by 1) pent up demand going back to 1929;2) the fact that the productive capacities of the major world economies had been destroyed and 3) cheap, cheap oil. The middle class was a monster, with several delineations :upper, middle, working, lower. The key here is that they were ALL in the middle class; a lower middle class person might own a standard black and white tv and drive an older car, but he had much more in common with an upper middle class person than today. As has been often noted, the factory worker and his boss would often live in the same neighborhood.

    This no longer maintains. “Working class” is now a pseudonym for poor, or close enough the difference is negligible. Lower middle class is flat out poor. Everyone sees it and comments on it.

    I said the post WWII “middle class monster” was an anomaly-it was. I see us returning to the sort of class structure that existed around the 1900’s, indeed through most of America’s history. Go back and review those times, doctors, lawyers, small businessmen did not get wealthy by and large, and those few who did usually did so by investment. Percentage wise, there were probably more rich, but also a lot, a lot, more poor. If that sounds like a Third World country, well, it is, and that’s what we are devolving back to.

    I’ll leave aside the good vs. bad argument. I will tell you this; the post WWII economy, where a man could raise a family delivering dairy products at 3 a.m., sending them to college if he “counted his pennies” (Joe Friday “Dragnet”), is over, gone, finis. Nothing like it will never be seen in your lifetime.Oh and BTW it started dying in 1969. The credit economy of the last 35 or so years hid the smell of the putrefaction, the funeral director’s blush hiding the death. If we boomers had lived the way our parents did (I knew several men, schoolteachers, construction guys etc., who bought new cars and never borrowed) this day of reckoning, or rather decade (s) of reckoning, would have come much, much sooner. We are at a crossroads; turn back to the 1900 stratification, or move to a European style welfare state. The numbers favor the latter; we shall see. I am very glad I got to live the “Golden Age” and I pity, truly pity, you Millenials et al.

    BTW the HUS discussion, all of the problems between the sexes detailed here, are just a very small part of this picture. If the American economy is “The Second Coming” on the ceiling of the Cistine Chapel, the problems discussed here barely rate a 1′ section of it, and nondescript at that.

  • J

    Just because J and I are both female doesn’t mean I have to back up everything she says. I do like her a whole lot, and would definitely agree with her on most subjects.

    Thanks, Hope. I like you a whole lot too and appreciate the kind words.

    We will have to work harder on getting you agree with everything I say. ;-)

  • J

    I said the post WWII “middle class monster” was an anomaly-it was. I see us returning to the sort of class structure that existed around the 1900′s, indeed through most of America’s history.

    Ain’t that the truth. Our generation–yours, mine, SW’s–was extraordinarily lucky to have been born into a bubble that was not only unique in American history, but in world history as well. There may never again be a time in which so many working class/LMC/poor people can afford to educate their kids and have those kids jump classes the way kids like my DH and I did. It’s a shame. America wil lose a great resource if it neglects its “up-and-comers.” I do share your fear that we are rapidly becoming a two class society with a large and resentful lower class. I fear that will be the end of democracy, especially if there is ever an Arab Spring-like revolution in America in which the poor rise up, destroy what exists and have no idea of what to replace it with. The powers that be will no doubt be replaced with something far worse–demogoguery that caters to the ignorant, infringement of civil rights, rule by the strongest. Now that people have lost the virtues that went with honest poverty, only thuggery will be left.

  • J

    I go to Seattle to meet with the University of Washington medical team to discuss my case. . Updates as they come in.

    Good luck, Munch. Please keep us posted.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Munson – “Beware in your friendship that you lean to far to help; be censorious, not understanding. I submit he has already suffered considerable consequences. Far worse await him, and his innocent family. He must stop this-now.”

    He dropped his last “mistress” over 2.5 years ago, and hasn’t slipped back into it. She scared him a lot. She was young (24ish) and got VERY emotionally attached. I’m glad it didn’t turn tragic, but I can’t say I didn’t toss out some light “I told you so” type comments. :P

    Here is the deal. I know what he did was wrong, and so does he. I was raised a Catholic, and even though I don’t practice I still follow a lot of the teachings. Hate the sin, not the sinner comes to mind when I think of my friend. If I were his wife and found out, there would be no second chances. There would be forgiveness, eventually, but no second chances. I feel bad knowing what I do, but it is a price of my friendship. I do understand what you are saying regarding my help, but I am stubborn as a mule and VERY much stuck in my ways in terms of what I believe is right and just in romantic relationships. I can promise you that despite my close relationship with this man, I will not allow his behavior to affect me.

    Besides, he’s on the wagon and doing well. I’m trying to get him to find ways of meeting those needs within his relationship. I haven’t introduced him to the “red pill” yet because I’m still working through much of it myself. But, I am feeding him bits of red pill knowledge that I think will help him for the short term. And, I’m hoping that perhaps once that ball is rolling, it will gain momentum on its own.

  • tvmunson

    @ J

    Thanks for the support. I will update. And yes, I am afraid we’re going to look like the rest of the world; top layer rcih, thin middle, large poor class. People need to be pushed awful far before they truly revolt. Doubt we’ll see that, but soemday maybe. The costof levelling the society will be loss of freedom, but who wants the freedom to starve?

    @ Ted

    Overeading: I said be “censorious”, not hate him.I never sugested he’d affect you. I said “beware” not that you were actually doing it. Your amendatory remarks above, at least to me, read much more differently than your initial ones. Loving the sinner means not condoning the sin. We agree. I will not try to change you.

  • anonymous

    @ Ted
    ” His primary concern, the one I said I understand, is that by exploring his kink with his wife he is concerned that his feelings for her will change for the worse. ”

    What a bastage, this guy.
    So his only concern is that HIS feelings might change for her but not that HER feelings might change for him if/when she finds out that he’s a cheating scumbag.
    Great. The guy has quite a hamster.

  • anonymous

    @ Obsidian
    It was interesting to read about your suggestions for the WC problem.
    Just a comment Re Game;
    The WC that *I know* have been from a big metro area (mostly immigrants, 1-2 gens) and, IMO, they’ve never appeared to lack any game. In fact, reading these boards makes me feel bad that at least one of THEM didn’t make a killing teaching it. I’ve always seen the main problems for the WC to be the displacement of men in families and the lack of economic opportunities for them.

    The problem isn’t that the WC must “pick themselves up by the bootstraps” and climb up to a higher socioeconomic class, there will always be a hierarchy. There was a time, not long ago, when the WC had a high marriage rate.

    I’ve had the same experience with the WC as Hope has. I know that her statement- they “can’t be bothered” might be interpreted as they don’t care, but I don’t think that’s what she meant by it. I think what she meant is that typically the WC isn’t into overanalyzing and developing a plan for something they might think is completely futile or out of their control anyway. They tend to be practical and not spend too much time whining when they have more important things to take care of. They simply deal with the cards they’re given.

    Have you been able to network with other men similar to yourself in the time you’ve been online? Do guys like you tune Roissy out because they can’t relate? Or are they completely missing from these blogs? Do you think that videos on youtube, audio on itunes or something like that (cheaper alternatives than TV/film ) might capture their attention better?
    What do guys IRL say when/if you talk to them about these issues?

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @ Cheerful

    Hmm….there are perhaps seeds of an article in your response. Today not feeling well; perhaps another day. There is much in our current culture to support your “Celebrating the Psychopath” (see what I mean?-a title pops forth) pathology that infects it. BTW I read a book once (I forget-see, I’m human) that explained inter alia that both sociopath and psychopath describe the same person and the difference is due to-well, I forget because as you all know I am the enemy of those smoke-tossing naive insipid mushy-thinking normative a priori bullshit artists and believe we give them far too much credence in areas of criminal law, domestic relations, etc. They are pseudo-scientists, their studies are horseshit (much like bullshit, except lighter and with less nutritional content) and I would as soon go to a voodoo priestess or witch doctor as consult one. I use them of course; they are whores who sell me there opinion and, unlike whores, allow me to kiss them, (Do you know that tradition among whores? Probably gone now).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      I’m so sorry you didn’t feel well today. I do love your idea of Celebrating the Psychopath as a post title. I’ll think on that.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Anon – “What a bastage, this guy.
    So his only concern is that HIS feelings might change for her but not that HER feelings might change for him if/when she finds out that he’s a cheating scumbag.
    Great. The guy has quite a hamster.”

    From a certain perspective, yes he is. As someone who is VERY picky about his friends, I will say he is a good guy for the most part. This is his one primary vice, or was until a few years ago.

    But I don’t think his concern about how he feels towards his wife is about him, although I can’t know his motivation for sure. He doesn’t want to love her less because he starts to see her as the “disposable” women from his past. It is a Madonna/Whore complex on steroids. He wants kinky sex, but doesn’t want to treat his wife that way, because he thinks she is “better” than that. This is exactly the kind of thinking I had (and am still having) issues with after taking the red pill. He and I both grew up thinking there were good women, and women you did nasty things with. I avoided the nasty stuff altogether, but he started there and then wanted to settle down. Problem is, he didn’t want to marry a “nasty” girl, but mentally was unable to get “nasty” sex from a good girl.

    Bottom line: He is afraid he will see his wife as “just another slut” if he goes down that path. He was never a player, by the definitions given here, but he spent about 8 years in the military hooking up with women that were very unsavory (as in drug/alcohol addiction) because they were freaks in bed.

    I have hope that he’ll get through this. He has serious pedestal issues with his wife obviously, and as someone just around a year into the red pill, I for one can say it was (and continues to be) a difficult ideal to overcome.

    Also, keep in mind that all you know about him is this, which is bad to say the least. He really is a good person, which makes this so much worse. But, in the end, even the best person can and often does make bad decisions.

  • Daniela Alice

    That baby is too cute.
    I loved those statistics you provided. The marriage system is crazily changing, and is changing at a very fast rate.

    Thanks for sharing this wonderful post.

    -Daniela

  • Margarita

    I found the ideas put forth by Stephanie Coontz, that were held up for ridicule, are actually dead-on, from my experience with single friends, married friends and married mothers. Women do worry about emasculating a less-accomplished mate. Hypergamy is a game in which men and women are both losers. Men don’t necessarily want to date and marry a more accomplished woman. Women hear/learn/internalize this message and set their sights for an equally or more accomplished man. It is a real concern and should not be pooh-poohed.
    Also, many women do want a man who helps out, ie “The most important predictor of marital happiness is not how much she looks up to her husband but how sensitive he is to her emotional cues and how willing he is to share the housework and child-care. And those traits are often easier to find in a low-key guy than a powerhouse.” A man helping to shoulder the household burdens is still believed to be a myth, but they do exist, and they have very happy wives.
    I will agree that the idea of help-mate may not knock the socks off a gal at 22 but it may for a woman of 28 or 32. One of the many reasons waiting to get married, not rushing to catch a good man while young, benefits, rather than hurts women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Margarita

      Hypergamy is a game in which men and women are both losers.

      It’s not a game, it is a female instinct.

      A man helping to shoulder the household burdens is still believed to be a myth, but they do exist, and they have very happy wives.

      My husband does a lot to help out, and it does make me very happy. In particular, I love it when he cooks. However, that’s not why I’m attracted to him. If he were overly sensitive to my emotional cues, which can be rather ridiculous at times, I would lose respect for him. He is unabashedly male, loving, generous, tolerant, and more dominant than I am. Women do want and reward dominant men, while men do not want or reward dominant women, YMMV.

      One of the many reasons waiting to get married, not rushing to catch a good man while young, benefits, rather than hurts women.

      Who said women should rush? I would characterize my view as avoiding unnecessary delays. Kate Bolick delayed, for reasons around accommodating her mother’s feminism, and she lost the opportunity to marry and have a family, which is something that she wanted.

      Women who wait to marry are increasingly unable to find a partner. In contrast to your claim above, they shun “Helpmeet” men and chase alpha males. It gets much more difficult as they age, and their fertility declines. The whole Single By Choice movement does not include any women in their 20s, at least that I’ve seen. They’re all women who didn’t have the opportunity to marry, and now they want to make a good life without a partner. I applaud that, but let’s be honest. Very few women choose that life willingly (excluding Eat Pray Love divorcees).

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “A man helping to shoulder the household burdens is still believed to be a myth, but they do exist, and they have very happy wives.”

    For real? What adult man actually expects his wife to take care of him like his mother did? For that matter, why the hell was his mother acting like her son’s maid anyway?!

    Our children wash clothes, do dishes, take out garbage, clean the house, and help cook sometimes. From oldest to youngest:
    Male – 13
    Male – 12
    Female – 11

    We tell them on a regular basis that we are not there to serve them, and that as a part of the family they are expected to help with ALL family chores.

    All that being said, no woman should ever ‘take care’ of a fully capable adult man. Even if you are a SAHM, there is no reason he can’t lend a hand, and certainly should not expect his wife to “pick up” after him.

  • tvmunson

    #346

    I do my share aorund the house et.-always have. Work is work; taking care of your property is sensible. When my wife did not work she shoulder most but I did some> Now we try to keep 50/50.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      Good to see you. All the husbands I know pitch in at home, both with kids and work around the house. Whenever we got to someone’s home as guests, the guys are either cooking or cleaning up. I’ve never seen a woman do all the work entertaining.

  • Thrasymachus

    I would not take everything that Stephanie Coontz says as the gospel truth. Yes, I know that The New York Times invariably quotes her in any article about marriage and the family, but that’s because its (feminist) reporters generally agree with her. Coontz is by no means the most distinguished sociologist of the family around. Steven Nock, Linda Waite, Brad Wilcox and the late Norval Glenn, to name only a few, had or have far more impressive records with respect to research.

    For example, Coontz’s claim that for a woman “the most important predictor of marital happiness is not how much she looks up to her husband but how sensitive he is to her emotional cues and how willing he is to share the housework and child-care” is not supported by most of the available evidence. See, for instance, Wilcox and Nock’s work described here:

    http://www.happiestwives.org/

    It’s something of an article of faith among feminists that androgynous (or role reversal) marriages are the most successful ones, and this is the view that is given most prominence in the media. In fact, androgynous marriages are more likely to break up than traditionalist ones, and while they last neither husbands nor wives are any happier than their traditionalist counterparts. The amount of misinformation that appears in the media on these issues is truly staggering.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Thras

    You see sharing household chores and child-care as “role-reversal”? That’s nits. As to child-care, being a Dad means diaper changing, bathing, feedign (we bottled fed and I took the night shift), dressing and a million other things-it’s why I became a father. I’ll admit the diaper-changing could be a tough detail at times, but when my boy looked up at me in total reliance and wondrous regard-I remember that look, not what I was doing. Feeding you child-damn, I’d pay someone to let me spoon that stuff (we had some strange looking grub- Gerber’s lavender whatever; I explained to my boy as I fed him it gets much better)to their baby. And it just keeps getting more intense.

    As for household, they haven’t made a toilet I can’t clean. Laundry-well, I ain’t great (too many dials-stick with hot, warm and cold) but I’ll do it. Dusting etc.-if you can’t dust an entire house and STILL watch a football game you must be disabled-or bone lazy. I do the simple cooking-if you can grill it, I’ll “kill” it.

    “Sensitive to emotional cues”-well, if your involved with a woman, you WILL learn a certain amount of this I do not care who you are.

    Role reversal? No, it’s what man and women do, and I’ll submit have been doing since he dawn of time.

  • Thrasymachus

    TVMunson:

    Role reversal means that the wife is the primary breadwinner and the husband is primarily responsible for child care/housework. (Marital androgyny means that husband and wife share both equally). This is NOT the same as sharing household tasks. For the record, I strongly believe that men should be prepared to share household tasks. The sociological evidence indicates that over the past generation they have come to do so more and more, and this is definitely a good thing.

    If a couple want to arrange their lives so that the wife is the breadwinner and the husband is the homemaker that is entirely up to them. An increasing number of families do so, although Mr. Moms are not nearly as widespread as the media suggest. My point was that androgynous or role reversal marriages (as I defined them above) are subject to their own stresses and strains. They are not, on the whole, any happier for either husbands or wives than more traditionalist marriages. In particular, the work by Wilcox and Nock that I cited suggests that women – even feminist women – are on average happier in marriages where the husband is the primary breadwinner and the wife is the primary homemaker. This is a statistical generalization, and individual couples may well find that other arrangements suit them better. The overall trend is clear, however.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Anonymous 339:
    Sorry for getting back to you so late. Replies below:

    “@ Obsidian
    It was interesting to read about your suggestions for the WC problem.”

    O: Thanks!

    “Just a comment Re Game;
    The WC that *I know* have been from a big metro area (mostly immigrants, 1-2 gens) and, IMO, they’ve never appeared to lack any game. In fact, reading these boards makes me feel bad that at least one of THEM didn’t make a killing teaching it. I’ve always seen the main problems for the WC to be the displacement of men in families and the lack of economic opportunities for them.”

    O: Agreed on the last part; as for the first, you might want to checkout my post on what I refer to as “Niman Game”: http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/64505 because it speaks to what you’re talking about here – that most of these guys, being “naturals”, can’t really teach Game, because they never had to actually think about it to any large degree. Hence the problem for the many WC guys who are more or less clueless, and, can’t afford thousands of dollars to get up and running.

    “The problem isn’t that the WC must “pick themselves up by the bootstraps” and climb up to a higher socioeconomic class, there will always be a hierarchy. There was a time, not long ago, when the WC had a high marriage rate.”

    O: Agreed.

    “I’ve had the same experience with the WC as Hope has. I know that her statement- they “can’t be bothered” might be interpreted as they don’t care, but I don’t think that’s what she meant by it. I think what she meant is that typically the WC isn’t into overanalyzing and developing a plan for something they might think is completely futile or out of their control anyway. They tend to be practical and not spend too much time whining when they have more important things to take care of. They simply deal with the cards they’re given.”

    O: I don’t have a problem with Hope’s take on things; what I have a problem with is our continued assumptions as to why such guys remain either relatively silent, and/or are relatively hard to find. My position is simply this: why NOT take the time out to actually sitdown and talk with them? What’s the harm in that? And why hasn’t that been done to date? I think we’re arriving at conclusions before even investigating the matter.

    “Have you been able to network with other men similar to yourself in the time you’ve been online?”

    O: No; so far as I know, I’m the only one of my “kind”, so to speak.

    “Do guys like you tune Roissy out because they can’t relate? Or are they completely missing from these blogs?”

    O: Roissy and others of his ilk have made it all too clear that they do not appreciate the presence of Black Men in their spaces, and while I take issue for the un-neccessarily meanspirited way in which he and others go about it, in the end I must agree that they have that right.

    “Do you think that videos on youtube, audio on itunes or something like that (cheaper alternatives than TV/film ) might capture their attention better?”

    O: It’s certainly possible.

    “What do guys IRL say when/if you talk to them about these issues?”

    O: Good question. It all depends; I’ve found that if I can get them one on one they’re a bit more receptive than if I approach them amongst a group of guys. Much could be said about this, of course.

    O.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @ Thras

    Well, the quote you mention, and appear to use as an example of role reversal, states precisely that. Your tone implies that I misread your article. I did not. If your going to write so imprecisely expect others to misinterpret you.

    Your first paragraph takes Coontz to task as an overzealous feminist, or at least an undeservedly elevated one. Your second paragraph cites her claim that emotional bonding and helping with chores is the key to a successful marriage. You dispute that. In your third and last marriage you go off on “androgynous” marriages; having spent a third of you article addressing the emotion/chores issues, and with no clear delineation your were making a separate argument, I assumed you meant chore sharing/bonding which are the only fucking things mentioned.

    Now you tell me you meant the “Mr. Mom” scenario. Well how was I supposed to extract that from what you’d written? We are not mind readers here; you may think you made your point clearly, but you did not.

    Re-read what you wrote: where is Mr. Mom? The quote you cite talks about CHORE SHARING, HELPING WITH KIDS, AND BEING ATTENTIVE TO YOUR WIFE’S MOODS. Peri-fucking-od. Don’t upbraid me for your lousy fuzzy writing. I do all those things and I am the primary bread winner.

    Drop that didactic tone until you learn to write with precision, clarity and focus.

  • Thrasymachus

    TVMunson:

    Whoa! Did you get out of bed on the wrong side this morning? Nothing I wrote justified such an intemperate response or the type of personal attack that you engaged in. I have reviewed my original posts and see nothing wrong with them. To date you are the only person who has complained that they were unclear.

    The literature on the sociology of marriage and the family is vast. No one who writes on this subject defines the term role reversal in the way you did. It seems to me that you are guilty of precisely what you accused Doug1 of doing – jumping head first into an ongoing debate without knowing very much about the issues involved. With all due respect, you need to become better acquainted with research on this subject before you attempt to criticize other people’s contributions.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @ Thras

    I do not give a flying tuba fish fuck about the literature. I was responding to you post.

    Paragraph 1: You more or less deride Ms. Coontz; you suggest she is overrated. If I have misunderstood your paragraph, please explain how.

    Paragraph 2: In this paragraph, you use as an example of her lack of diligence in research her assertion that a husband’s being sensitive to his wife’s emotional needs and his helping with household chores and child-care is the number one predictor of marital happiness and you cite to research that supports your view.Again, if I have misunderstood, please state how.

    Paragraph 3: Now, with no interjection or indication that you are talking about anything besides what you discussed in paragraph 2 i e sensitivity, chores, childcare, you start talking about androgynous marriages (role reversal) marriages. You apparently meant something OTHER than chore sharing, because in #351 you upbraid me and point out that chore sharing et al is NOT (your emphasis) role reversal BUT NO WHERE IN YOUR FUCKING ARTICLE DID YOU DELINEATE THAT YOU WERE MOVING FROM SENSITIVITY, CHORES AND CHILD CARE TO “ROLE REVERSAL” SO HOW THE FUCK WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW YOU MEANT SOMETHING ELSE? I have only your written word to go by; you obviously did not mean chore sharing et al was role reversal but you did not make that clear, in fact the context strongly implies the opposite.

    Continue with your muddle mash writing Thras. Blame your readers all you like. I’ll let them decide as between us who is the more clear elucidator of concepts and ideas.

  • Thrasymachus

    TVMunson:

    I’m more than happy to let informed readers decide between your argument and mine. I don’t see much point in continuing a dialogue with someone who clearly does not understand the issues involved. Unlike your debate with Doug1, you don’t have home field advantage here, and the results are all too obvious.

  • someINTP

    According Strauss-Howe generational theory, Millennials (the Hero archetype) are institution builders. They put forth a great deal of collective energy guarding against the societal dysfunctions they witnessed in their youth.

    I don’t know if Millennials will “marry with a vengeance” or create new reproductive arrangements, which altogether reclassify the family as the the smallest social unit. Some of this history might operate like a pendulum or… in triads (German Idealism) of thesis, anti-thesis, and synthesis.

    Childless singles are also evolutionary dead ends and a nation or tribe that fails to achieve replacement succumbs to the “Demographic Destiny” of a civilization in decline. The solution to the demographic crisis is thwarted by another crisis, perhaps more distant on the horizon. The world is not so properly sized to sustain modern civilization and it prescribed lifestyles. Solutions to these crises require a great deal of innovation, which functions better without expectations. We should not want for the future what we wanted for ourselves. As such, our metrics may not properly size the problem, but impress upon others unworkable solutions. The fight to determine the solution is the same as the fight to determine the problem.