Millennials and Marriage

The other is that women are not demonized for their preferences the way men are

Probably because income is within one’s control, and breast size is something you’re born with?

@SayWhaat
Probably because income is within one’s control, and breast size is something you’re born with?

I think it’s actually easier to change your breast size than to change your income. I say this as someone who has had reconstructive surgery for something she was born with and who has worked in an unforgiving economy.

SayWhaat: “Probably because income is within one’s control, and breast size is something you’re born with?”

I’m pretty sure people can’t control their height, even less than breast size – yet women are not apologetic about having minimum height standards.

“I’m pretty sure people can’t control their height, even less than breast size – yet women are not apologetic about having minimum height standards.”

Also, men are generally much more flexible in their standards. Even with looks – which rate higher for us than women in importance – we generally have something more along the lines of ‘preferences’ than standards or checklists. I know what my ‘ideal’ woman would be in terms of her physical looks, but I certainly haven’t let that stop me from dating others without those.

@Leapofabeta

“Also, men are generally much more flexible in their standards. Even with looks – which rate higher for us than women in importance – we generally have something more along the lines of ‘preferences’ than standards or checklists. I know what my ‘ideal’ woman would be in terms of her physical looks, but I certainly haven’t let that stop me from dating others without those.
Leap of a Beta´s last [type] ..Cupidity”

That’s how I see preferences too. A woman can say that she prefers men that are 6ft and above, but she may find herself wildly attracted to someone that’s 5’8.

Susan-

The whole point about women being “better educated” is wearing thin.

First of all, education, as currently practiced is all about OTHER PEOPLE making you into something, and a committee-run organization issuing you a credential.

Nothing more.
Education is not a proxy for either intelligence of capability.

Especially when so many of these women get degrees is soft social-studies topics like gender equality or diversity. Yeah – real tough “education” there, girls.

The “Medieval Baebes” look good, you say?

I hadn’t *cough* noticed

I was really cheesed off when I came across their stuff one week after they played my town.

Mule-

It still amazes me how much women are absolutely ignorant of all the behind-the-scenes efforts, innovation and technological comforts that men largely have produced.

When maureen down sits her rapidly-aging fanny down on the commode, does she think about all the materials science, construction, civil engineeering and architectural effort that went into making it possible to use a restroom on the same level as her office where she slings her bitterness at the world?

Of course not. Once something exists, women immediately take it for granted and say “what have you done for me lately”, and by lately they mean RIGHT NOW.

The absolute ignorance and ingratitude of American Women is reaching toxic levels.

American women are no longer worthy of the regard their mothers and grandmothers were worthy of.

Entitled, spoiled, ungrateful, and OBLIVIOUS to the endless work men have produced for their benefit.

Nature will not allow this imbalance to continue. Sadly, though, it will be the daughters of these spoiled, bitter women who will bear the brunt of the coming male backlash.

Why should I care one whit about women, their comfort, or their happiness? They couldn’t CARE LESS about the lives of men.

@Sassy (#169)

“On another note, I actually decided to get back with my ex-boyfriend. He and I have decided to give our relationship another try. We’ll see how well things go.”
Hey Sassy,

I was just thinking about you and wondering how you’ve been. Please keep in touch, as I’ve always enjoyed reading your viewpoint.

All the best on your renewed relationship with your BF, Sassy–

Escoffier,

If Claire ever develops a nascent desire for a night of good Shakespeare, Jazz, and conversation, I know just the place and man for the job.

Fresh out of chickens.

Our moms weren’t lying to us, there were teaching us what attracted them. The difference was that they grew up in a society that enforced a strong marriage and family norm. If you’re looking for a good father for your children from the get go, a healthy, attractive, man with good social status who happens to be awkward with women is perfect, as he is less of a risk to cheat/abandon you.

Once that norm itself was abandoned, however, what was ushered in was not the envisioned paradise of everyone creating our own norms according to our unique individual blisses, but rather a devolution to base instinct as norm. For a woman following her base instinct, awkwardness with women goes from a positive to a strong negative, as the children produced with such a man are significantly less likely to be sexy sons.

Even had the norms remained constant, however, the flooding of the market with these “awkward with women/good elsewhere men”, i.e. betas, raised by these first-wave feminist mothers would have made it a less optimal strategy than it was for men of their generation.

These sorts of fluctuations are natural and have been going on for millenia. By the time one is ready, alas, for the purple pill, life affords a perspective that makes the red and blue ones less traumatic to swallow.

Sassy–

Best of luck with your relationship 2.0

“Claire Berlinski was born in 1968 per her website.

That said, assuming the pictures on her site are at all recent, I can understand why you misjudged.”

Those of us born in the late 60′s prefer to count in base 12.

She’s held up very well for 37.

@Bobley

“Many college degrees are utterly worthless, and a very high percentage of these in my experience are held by women. (I am a big fan of the liberals arts when they are done right, but for simplicity’s sake think STEM, accounting, and perhaps business as worthwhile majors.)”

I absolutely agree and in fact would go further, the degree may be worthless, but it probably comes with a debt mountain that cannot be escaped via bankruptcy.

But you have a lot of hamsters out there with “advanced degrees” and huge debts who will fight to their hamstery death not to realise that they were conned.

Have you seen Captain Capitalism’s book “Worthless” on the value of selecting a viable (financially) degree?

Well i guess this is where i de-cloak. How are you ms walsh, everyone? Been awhile but ive been following along from the shadows and would like to offer the following observations.

You know, as something of the ultimate outsider, i find all the handwringing just a bit over the top-i mean after all, and ms walsh herself has noted this, along w/other notable talking heads including one mr charles murray in his most recent book, if youre upper middle class and white youve really got nothing to worry about-chances are very good youll marry and marry well, youll be happily married and wont be likely to divorce. Its the guys of my class-and make no mistake on the low end the convo is really about guys when you read through the lines-who are in huge trouble. Its a fact that marital/divorce rates are through the basement/roof for the working class and thats just for starters-so it boggles my mind at least as to why so many of you-who, as murray points out probably hasnt even hung out with blue collar guys-spend (read: waste) so much time cogitating over things that, in the grand scheme of things, dont concern you?

I just do not get it.

Moreover, i just do not get, for the life of me, why we do not focus any of this prodigious brainpower on those we know for a fact are indeed the most affected-the working class. It occurs to me that if anyone needed some game, the garden variety working stiff needs it. Yet…nothing.

Similarly, the same thing could be said of their working class sisters-i mean really, who honestly needs to hear what ms walsh is saying-her “audience”, or the young ladies of fishtown philly that mr murray (and edin and kafalas) wrote about? If one has even a scintilla of intellectual honesty, they would know that to ask these questions is to answer them.

Yet here we are, navel gazing like i dont know what on one hand and wringing our hands like i dont know what on the other, and it all just makes me scratch my head. What gives?

Srsly?

Now, on to other comments…

To ozymandias: please dont take this the wrong way but you, like me, are a serious outlier; the only difference between us two is that im very aware of this fact. Everytime i read you i just shake my head because you and the people you kick it with are not the norm-no disrespect-and as such, have little to bear on the topics being discussed at hand.

As for the whole male height thing: listen yall ladies need to stop ok? As a man of below average height i can assure you that such guys are not wanted as dating options even when controlling for other things like education and earning potential. Moreover all of this is documented by numerous surveys and scientific studies. Simply put a woman given the choice will choose a taller man to a shorter one and thats true regardless as to her own height. Now to be sure, being a short man isnt a death sentence; im living proof that it can be mitigated. But lets not kid ourselves-if youre a guy below what is considered to be average height for american males, you are at a decided disadvantage out there on the smp. To even pretend otherwise is to evidence either a disengenuous frame of mind or to have a tenuous hold on reality itself.

Anyway im very familiar w/coontz and agree w/brendans assessment of her.

Thats enough for now; ill hold here.

Holla back

O.

Ted–My backgound is pretty similar to yours, so it pains me to bid you farewall. You have stepped in to the vortex by engaging with Obsidian and are now primed to disappear into a blackhole of “conversation” from which few return. Godspeed, my friend, godspeed.

@ Rum “Unchecked hypergamy is a vastly bigger threat to a relationship than the male form of waywardness for one simple, harsh reason. A womans sexual instincts are a form of “monogamous” because she only really wants one man at any given time. If she gets turned on by a new man she will thereafter not want her relationship-guy much at all sexually. And there is not much anyone can do about it.”

Rum, you are a weird empty Misogynistic little jerk. Crawl into a cave and dissapear. Women are not all secret sluts, they are people just like men. People who want friends and happiness and companionship. The fact that you smugly spew such poison with righteous indignation is truly sickening.

I think the issue of women marrying down is overstated. She should not look to her peers (men near her age and younger). She will not marry down, yet she does have options that include marrying up, way up. All those available men from 5 to 20 years older. She will be attractive to older men who have accomplishments and much baggage to bear.

Just like older men should be her goal. Many older men like myself have selected much younger women. Stuff like this happens. Women who are my peer made themselves unattractive. They don’t show the same respect to her peers. There is too much power and control issues. These issues are somewhat alleviated when you marry someone of a different generation.

Having children is also a very important step. Many women ignore it to their disadvantage. By the time they marry a mature man, they have succumbed to a decision. Either you marry someone who wants a kid or you continue your ways.

The articles from the female writers, Coontz, for example just missed the boat. They don’t address the central problem…. Women are not making rational choices in life. Those that managed to get married are doing a poor job of staying married. The question then becomes why bother in the first place?

What does a woman want? Once a decision is made, let’s try to find the guy for you, or girl, or cat.

J – “Ted–My backgound is pretty similar to yours, so it pains me to bid you farewall. You have stepped in to the vortex by engaging with Obsidian and are now primed to disappear into a blackhole of “conversation” from which few return. Godspeed, my friend, godspeed”

I didn’t recognize Obsidian as a regular. Is there something I should know about?

Ted,

The Obsidian is well, the Obsidian. So called because he is both black and sharp–like obsidian, get it?–the Obsidian is a ‘sphere regular, a Game blogger, and occasionally HUS commenter who has certain hotspots, into one of which, you just unknowingly walked. So, thread derailment is 5, 4, 3, 2, 1…..

Just remember, two men enter; one man leaves….. (ref. Thunderdome)

Everyone–The simple truth is that no one, male or female, gets their dream. Anyone you meet is a fallible human being–just like you. “The One” is not out there waiting for you. There is no “One.”

J, a lot of people would say that that unreasonable “dream” of meeting “The One” is a much bigger problem with girls than it is with guys.

And, the initial fear that you brought up of Betas fearing the ‘older cat’ that will now settle for them is something that they SHOULD fear. Whereas the insistence/dream of the Jezzies that their ability to support themselves will ultimately enable them to get Don Draper is mostly a delusion.

IOW, your statement did little to change the playing field as it is seen by many guys.

J – “He’s the best anyone is going to find. She’s telling women to throw out the checklist. Isn’t the checklist something you guys complain about?”

If that was her point, IMO she made it very badly. It sounds more like the kind of “settling” Jesus M and I (and other men here of course) scream so loudly against. Now that women have “the list”, can they really not use it and still feel like they got the best deal in a man? That cat is out of the bag, and I don’t think there is a way to put it back.

I don’t want to get into one of these who suffers more debates;

Neither do I. But, the examples that you gave in an attempt to set the “everyone needs to wake up” playing field did not imply that both sexes were making major mistakes. It seemed like, from your examples, that the girls were making the bigger mistakes, regardless if that is what is actually happening in real life.

I think you misunderstand the dream. It’s not so much that Don Draper will be attracted to them because they can support themselves, it’s that they don’t have to marry someone they don’t feel tingles for simply because they need a provider.

I think I understood your point. But, my attempt to paraphrase it back to you was not great.

When feminism made it possible for women to support themselves, it made it possible for romantic love, as opposed to economics, to become the decisor. At this point, “love” now matters too much. Finding a “perfect soulmate” has become the Holy Grail of relationships, impossible as that is.

J,
Finding a “perfect soulmate” has become the Holy Grail of relationships for girls, impossible as that is.

Again, it seems like you are highlighting problems which are being caused by females, not males; which is fine. Girls have caused some problems. But, if you were attempting to NOT blame just one sex, I think that you are failing.

I believe that Lori Gottlieb was doing women–and men– a favor in saying that Mr. Perfect does not exist and that Mr. Good Enough is really not just good enough.

I read that article and it was disgusting. If all she wanted to communicate was that we should be more realistic about the modern SMP, that would have been fine. But men, in her article, were little more than props. And, after I found out how she had treated her long-time boyfriend, I was not surprised.

Now, I am not indicting you for something she wrote or did, but, if I were you, I would not my wagon to that star.

Were you stalking me when I was single? :p

I am far too lazy to stalk.

However, any girl that has a checklist that looks like that is definitely worthy.

And, back on point, I have come to the opinion that girls with lengthy, and, increasingly ridiculous, checklists, are a good thing.

The girls themselves may not be great, but the fact that they are signaling/advertising what it is that they want (i.e. “Well Traveled”, hawt, “Exciting”, etc.), helps everyone else really understand who they are.

there’s a lot to be said for still looking good in middle age;

A woman who looks like a beautiful 20 year old woman is beautiful.
A woman who looks like a beautiful 30 year old woman is beautiful.
A woman who looks like a beautiful 40 year old woman is beautiful.
A woman who looks like a beautiful 50 year old woman is beautiful.
etc.

Looking your age was killed by the boomers. After the boomers are killed, hopefully, it will make a comeback.

Ramble–I’m a boomer and I don’t try to look like a kid. That was my point.

Ted/Ramble–

AAArrrgggghhhh.

I’m beginning to think that Lori reads for men the way Roissy reads for women. Perhaps the message just doesn’t translate well across the gender line. She knows she screwed up; short of groveling she can’t make it any clearer.

Nevertheless, there’s a lot of truth in what she says and the changes that she advocates are things I’ve heard in the ‘sphere though packaged in a way designed for women to here them. Predictably, she was villified by both sides, the ‘sphere hears “Use those betas.” The Jezzies hear, “You need a man to survive.” What I hear her say to women is “Be realistic, princess. What you want doesn’t exist.” And I think she’s right.

And, after I found out how she had treated her long-time boyfriend, I was not surprised.

Ramble, are you talking about the guy who the Jezzies dug up who felt that the man described in the book was him and took offense at being described as such a loser? If so, she said that the guy in the book was a composite of several guys from her real life. If that’s so, I don’t want to get caught up in “he said, she said.” Generally both parties are full of shit in those discussions.

Susan Walsh says:

Yes. Not to mention that STEM guys are about to be the new black. I’ll be writing more about that in a post on education next week.

I LOVE that! As an engineering grad myself, my wife will be pleased to know that she married “black”.

It’s been a wonderful day!

Ramble, we seem to be crossposting and also talking at crosspurposes while essentially agreeing. Perhaps we should catch up with each others most recent posts before commenting.

This gave me a chuckle though:But, she was getting depressed because other girls had husbands who would take out the garbage while she had no one. Her message was almost specifically aimed at girls, saying “Well, you better settle. Because, even if he isn’t great, at least you will have someone to take out the garbage.”

So much of married life is actually like that. Obviously, you want to love the guy who’s taking out the garbage or the gal whos’s picking the dirty underwear up off the floor, but a lot of what makes marriage good IS having a helpmate who will do that stuff. It really is ultimately made of thousands of little things, not grand passion. In our culture, passion gets uou there, but appreciating the day to day keeps you there.

LG is going in alone as a single mom (her choice, I know). She comments about taking the garbage out in the context of hearing married women at the park complain, in a way that seems ungrateful to her, about their husbands being less than perfect. She isn’t saying “Get married so that someone takes the garbage out.”

J, I don’t disagree, but, again, it seemed like you were trying to say to both girls AND guys that they BOTH needed to get their heads out of the clouds.

I think guys are unrealistic in different ways than women, most frequently in thinking that they can overcome assortive mating without a lot of money. But that’s another story.

Okay, so we’ve seen that women should get married even if they’re not getting the Prince that they thought they were entitled to; because they’re not the prize pig they thought they were (love this J, congrats). Hopefully a BBD won’t come by (the ‘lucky’ hubby hopes). So, what’s in it for da menz?

I think it’s implicit in what I said that if a woman finds a good guy and marries him based on a realistic appraisal of who she actually is despite previously seeing herself as a princess, she will have the common sense to stay with him. It’s not about using or settling. It’s about dropping the bullshit, seeing your own faults and being loving to another imperfect person. It’s about understanding that there is no BBD.

I think it’s implicit in what I said that if a woman finds a good guy and marries him based on a realistic appraisal of who she actually is despite previously seeing herself as a princess, she will have the common sense to stay with him. It’s not about using or settling. It’s about dropping the bullshit, seeing your own faults and being loving to another imperfect person. It’s about understanding that there is no BBD.

This is a reasonable sentiment to express, but not the one that Gottlieb expressed in her article. (alright, THAT is my last argument on this subject.)

I got the idea that you were trying to say that, but, I was saying that you did not really accomplish that…IMO.

Okey doke.

re: Gottlieb, again. We will likely lob arguments back and forth, so, I am content in saying that I read the article and I am confident that I got the gist of it. And she could not have cared less about the male perspective.

Well, she is trying to advise women in this piece; her book is a cautionary tale for women.

“Even if you are not that hot for him, even if he is not charming, even if he is not great, at least he is there and he takes out the garbage. So, GIRLS, you should definitely settle! (And, if any of you guys are still reading this vomit inducing article, you should be grateful that we might be willing to settle for you.)”

Roissy-like hyberbole. She knows that she will be criticized for advising people to settle. She says that explicitly elsewhere in the article.

I will leave that as my last lob and let you get in the last word. (I reserve the right to keep lobbing arguments if I am unsatisfied with your next statement.

LOL.

Seriously, I understand what you are responding to in the article. Taken out of context, that does sound bad. I find myself acting as her apologist here as Rum did for Roissy. Yeah, I guess I see what bothers you about LG, but I understand and agree with her main message regarding the SMP and having an inflated understanding of one’s value and the value of others in it.

Hypergamy and education –

http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/how-will-they-find-husbands/

Classrooms are bad for boys –

http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/the-classroom-is-bad-for-boys/

I got the idea that you were trying to say that, but, I was saying that you did not really accomplish that…IMO.

Okey doke.

And, J, I was trying to be helpful. I thought that you had made the girls look more culpable in this game than the guys, but I don’t think you had wanted to communicate that. That is all I was trying to to.

J: “What I hear her say to women is “Be realistic, princess. What you want doesn’t exist.” And I think she’s right.”

That was my take from the article, too. People are reading far too much into it.

Well i guess its time to jump back in now that the partys in full swing! Lets see…i think this is a great place to start…

J: you know whats absolutely side-splitting to me is that you roll your eyes at my comment and warn others that im a thread derailer and here i am spending the better part of my afternoon watching you and ramble completely derail the thread over what lori gottlieb did or didnt say in her “marry him!” book/article(s). Oh the irony.

But what i really think what got your goat wrt my commentary was simply this: that the people most at risk and who need the help that places like hus and people like paul carrick brunson can provide, ie, the very working classes that murray and others are talking about, are not getting it-instead, theyre objectified, dissected, talked down to (if at all) and regarded as something less than fully human. None of this based on some interesting theory i read in a dusty corner of a college library somewhere-ive lived it firsthand. While you and ramble quibble over gottlieb and roissy (and ive spent more time than i probably should have studying at length them both-google it up for yourself) my point is that they both have one thing in common-neither speaks to the class of folk to which i belong. Get it? And the sheer tone deafness on this front is mind boggling when one again looks at the actual data. So while watching you and him argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin may prove immensely interesting for the two of you im on the sidelines going “wtf?!?!” and wondering when or when is some real rap gonna emanate from all this extreme self centered navel gazing. Which brings me to…

Ms. Walsh: hey, thanks for the welcome back and thanks also for alerting me to the fact that my name is in essence mag. This makes the second time this has happened and i do feel honored.

But at risk of looking like a bad guest and while i completely hear what youre saying, it simply doesnt cut it-again we know for a fact that folk of your cohort have little to fear out there on the smp; its guys like me who are on the front lines and being tossed in the meat grinder. Yet the best we can do is discuss us as if we are some kind of disease or something. Im telling you that you have no idea how it feels to either be regarded in such a fashion or not to be regarded at all. No matter what side one comes down on when it comes to folks like roissy, gottlieb, your or brunson, the bottomline is, if youre of a certain class not only can you find media outlets for you to vent to your hearts content there are also places for you to go to get help-not so for guys like me. When i came into the knowledge of game i had to basically reverse engineer it on my own and adapt it to my particular circumstances. There are no blogs or forums or books or articles or consultants or bootcamps, black or white, that assist blue collar brothas in these areas. Like everything else we are expected to figure it all out on our own. So please pardon me if all the hand wringing and sky is falling babble falls on one of my jaded, tin ears. Im just saying.

Ted: like ms walsh and j, please dont take this the wrong way but, cry me a river. Youre hardly “working class” going by what you said to me regardless as to how hard you may try to wish yourself so and i maintain that you come a lot closer to murrays “bubble test” than i do-not only am actually a part of the working class as i speak i know what its like to spend major portions of my time being among people from that cohort. I seriously doubt if you can say the same, and while that in itself is no crime it does go to prove the whole point of commentary here. Again: you have much less to worry about along the lines of the smp than your uncles. Fact. Yet here you are, hand wringing with the best of em-for what?!?

Please explain that to me.

Holla back

O.

@Just1x, no, I haven’t seen “Worthless” by Captain Capitalism. Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll be sure to check it out- reading about the hollowing out and decline of the US economy is a macabre interest of mine.

Susan
A Sunbeam Tiger? I am helpless with envy. I put on a major performance to convince my Dad that the most sensible, practical car for a young guy was a Sunbeam Tiger because the V8 version had a Ford Engine. And who really needs a back-seat and a roof anyway? I think he respected my willingness to be creative with my bs; but he knew too much about such things to actually get me one.
When Roissy says that what young women really want is a round of “surprise” un-lubed anal sex he is really saying is 1. I can write a great short scene and a great short phrase and 2. Don’t be silly, you know what I mean.”
IOWs, you women can actually trust us; we are not like the other guys.
IOWs, it is a good thing if no one is completely sure what you mean. If that kind of theatricality can be achieved using words that when put together ring with some musicality you might be in the presence of poetry.
There are worse things.

No such classes are offered in Brookline, though our teenagers do learn about fisting in sex ed here.

Geez Louise, you just sent me running to my kids to see if they’ve learned about fisting in health. Thank God, they are learning about that on the net like normal kids.

I am seriously shocked by that though. I have some familiarity with Brookline as I was following their educational best practices when I was employed. My community is much like Brookline demographically, so it is one of the communities that sort of set a standard for us. I don’t think we will be following you down that rabbit hole though. Wow!

I took Auto Shop in high school, and learned some basics that helped a lot.

That is cool. I took woodshop for six weeks when we swapped with the boys. I made a nice bookcase, but I wish I knew more about cars.

Home ec and shop were available at my high school too. Only my peer group never took them because we didn’t want the As in those classes to bring down our weighted GPAs and affect our college admissions.

My Dad had a red Sunbeam Alpine (4cyl) with the black hard top. He put a luggage rack on the boot. The four of us toured Europe in it in the late 60s.

We brought it back to the USA with us. Dad couldn’t anybody competent to work on it.

ON “SETTLING”

Uncle Tom here. As the informed readership is aware, I have recently added a new credential to my credibility index, beyond being a (near) 60 year old man who can barely turn on his computer, been with my wife for 33 1/2 years, has not been in an establishment where people dance or even stand up very often in probably 14, and has otherwise no dog in this fight other than to provide a partial, and I stress partial, insight relating to matters concerning commitment. Every thing I say can be sliced and diced, exceptions found, modified, qualified, and deconstructed to the point where there is no purpose in even saying it. But I owe you my readers, those who spend their precious moments (and they are so precious) to read me, my attempt.

First, the mystical. There is magic in this endeavor we are discussing, the myriad names we given it here, the “search”. Oh yes; I’ve not only seen it, I’ve lived it. It is there. along with ego protection, projection,anomic frustration and a whole lot more. The search is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE EASY.But a little magic always helps. Rumi says “Lovers don’t finally meet somewhere; they’re in each other all along.” Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Right away a conundrum huh? Not easy, but they’re in each other-wassup’ wid’ dat’? You must remove the barriers (and this “settling” thing is one-I’ll get there in a minute) in you, then you are ready. “Who you seek is seeking you”-yes, true too that. The mind works and is enmeshed in reality more than is healthy for it. Reality is final, but not complete (Dodge “Not Fade Away”). It is not enough to simply try as hard as you can; you must let go, rashly move as you deliberately strive to get beyond your barriers. If I’ve confused you-good. I’ve been just as confused as you and in love for 34 1/2 years. Oh and you skeptics-take your shots. You drink from the cup, I from the well.

Ok that’s the hard part. Now the practical-and a parable, this one from the made-for-tv-movie “Masada”. Peter O’Toole plays a Roman general come to break the Jewish resistance in the fortress. Now, I was a 28 year old law student who was set to graduate. I was in love, but a part of me was equivocal about the “next step”. Now, back to the movie. O’Toole has captured a Jewish concubine who he can ravish if he chooses. But instead, he starts talking about his wife, who died. In doing so he remarks “You (the concubine) are far more beautiful than she”, but as he says this he isn’t even looking at her, and you can tell to him that is such a minor detail that it hardly registers with him. He details their life, her death, with such feeling and emotion that the concubine has seen him not as her conqueror, but as a man, one she genuinely has feelings for.

And it clicked. I had been musing about when I finally started making money would I meet someone better, all sort of shit. I realized Susan loved me, would stand by me whatever, and there was nothing I could, no “perfect” person who would ever replace that. I realized love was more fragile than a candle in the wind, it was a match that needed to be carried to fidelity and commitment before it went out, that there was nothing else I would ever find.We got engaged the next day. As for her standing by me, read “Munson”.

You will never meet that person if you have a checklist. The magic will not occur; it resists, in fact cannot abide in the slightest formulas, recipes. When you love you never settle. That is the person you love, and then you must give more. Love is a pistol my young friends; it needs a holster to make it useful. That holster is what I described to you, fidelity, honor, sacrifice, and commitment, and as love is an act of courage the holster that contains it involves a similar, although different, exertion of the will. Those who seek only love affairs go about as one who constantly brandishes a weapon, never holstered, and someone, perhaps many, including the bearer, inevitably gets hurt. Even if one succeeds in carrying on a series of affairs without doing so, nothing is accomplished. Kahlil Gibran says those who reject love go to “that season-less world where (they) laugh, but not all of (their) laughter, and weep, but not all of (their) tears.” They remain shrubs, never trees.

Got a little heavy (60′s word). Sorry. Let’s lighten it with a final quote from Rumi:

Do not be satisfied with the stories that come
before you. Unfold your own myth.

@ Obsidian
“Again: you have much less to worry about along the lines of the smp than your uncles. Fact. Yet here you are, hand wringing with the best of em-for what?!?
Please explain that to me. ”

I’m not Ted, but I’ll sum it up for you;
- Ted’s marriage ended in divorce.
- He’s thinking pushing his kids to go to college might not be worth it.
So, this SMP has already affected him and will probably his kids.

@ Cheerful

My heart soars this a m like a hawk at your words (ref Chief Dan George “Little Big Man”). Our own Gibran; I get weeks out of that one (Mark Twain).

CAUTION re Paul and Keith. Linda was with him on the road to make sure he didn’t get off the leash; no mistake about that. As for Keith (and I’ll vouch for this as a Stones fan since 1964-yeah, I loved “Not Fade Away), the wives NEVER traveled on the road, which may suggest a certain lability in the dalliance dept. BTW I read where Bono’s wife (his girlfriend since jr. high) does not allow him back in the house for a week or so following a tour because his head is so inflated. One wonders.

Very true. Paul McCartney is a rare gem, though, re fidelity. Isn’t Keith Richards the same?

I remember seeing a factoid in that most respected of sources, Maxim, that listed how many girls each of the Rolling Stones had slept with between 1966 and 1970 (or something like that, I don’t remember). The 2 guys with the fewest partners were Keith Richards and Mick Jagger.

The most (and it was a number, which I have forgotten, that DWARFED the two lead men) was the drummer, Charlie Watts.

Olive – “When I was staying with them, a grad school friend came to pick me up one time and actually said she was afraid she’d get shot (which is preposterous, and is straight out of the mouth of a UMC girl… but the run-down houses must’ve given her this impression).”

Its so funny when we have people from other offices come into town to visit. They can’t believe how travelling from the airport to our office near the Pittsburgh Mills Mall they see so many different types of town. You pass through all these rundown mill towns along the river corridor, but then you pass through Waterworks and Fox Chapel (where many of the Pittsburgh Penguins live) and it just doesn’t seem like part of the same city. I’ve heard the exact same comment from them, that they were afraid they would blow a tire somewhere and get mugged, and it made me laugh. I told him, ask a local. If THEY tell you to stay out, stay out!

Most people don’t realize just how bad it got in Western PA when the steel mills closed shop. And despite the fact that Pittsburgh is now a hub for medical and technological jobs, it is still VERY much an old mill town. Slowly that is changing, but I live on the east side of town (actually just outside of Allegheny county past Blawnox and before Kitanning) and out this way things still look pretty damn grim. I have seen a lot of effort being put into finally knocking down all the abandoned houses and buildings in our area, so I have hope that my 30k investment will pay off a little after our children are through school and onto college. About that time my SO and I are planning our exit to places warmer.

Ted #262

Rookie mistake, dude. You don’t need to qualify yourself to anyone, much less to someone who is trying to bait you.

You are about to enter…dum-dum-dum…the Obsidian Zone. Don’t make me do my Rod Sterling imitation. Things’ll get ugly.

There were always a couple of dads in the elementary school who appeared to be about 75. They looked like great-grandfathers.

My folks were older parents for their era; they had me at 32 and 40. Thank God, they were youthful and healthy.

I had a friend whose dad was in his seventies and infirm when she was in high school; there were four younger sibs as well. They lived in poverty, and their dad was not a guide or protector, but a burden. Another friend lost her dad shortly after graduation; she was the second oldest kid in his second family. Both moms worked themselves into early decrepitude, supporting these old guys and their prematurely fatherless kids. For all the “Women age like milk; men age like wine” talk in the ‘sphere, marrying a much older man is a bad idea.

@anonymous in re 256:

I clearly missed a correction when I went back and did the breakout of Hispanics prior to positing. Thank you for pointing it out. The breakdown of educational attainment for Hispanics 23-28 is confirmed by the CPS data.

Never married whites of Hispanic origin (the overwhelming majority of never married Hispanics of any race by the Census definition) with at least a Bachelor’s are 387,000 out of 2.7 million. Adding in those with any college experience (not exactly accurate because most of these people do not have degrees and the data does not enable breaking out current students from those who have dropped out, non-traditionals, etc) accounts for another 746 thousand, which is less than half with a delta of approximately 400k.

As to your other points, the Census data either does not appear speak to them or, alternatively, if you can generate a different set of inputs which shifts the story, feel free to post those inputs here and tell it.

My overarching point here is not to get into a pedantic discussion of the Census data. It is that the data supports the conclusion that the reduction in the rate of marriage is not a problem unique to any particular social class and can be found in most communities.

J – I share your views on our public schools. I wont stoke the fires here, but I can spend weeks talking about how bad the school system is in the U.S. overall, let alone how terrible it is for many boys, my son being one of them. I lucked out, I was a very laid back child and didn’t have issues “sitting still” and “behaving” as many of my male friends did. I pretty much worked out my concentration issues by 2nd grade, but I had friends that continued to struggle all the way through high school because the environment simply stifled them.

@ JQ
“My overarching point here is not to get into a pedantic discussion of the Census data. It is that the data supports the conclusion that the reduction in the rate of marriage is not a problem unique to any particular social class and can be found in most communities.”

If that’s how my post came across, it’s not what I meant. I agree that it’s not a racial problem, as I see it, it’s societal, political, legal, economical, cultural, … (and I’m expanding beyond never-marrieds to include divorcees, children OOW, etc.)
I pointed out in another post that regardless of the cause/s or motivation behind some factors, the result of destroying the family structure is the same and things will get worse if we continue on this trajectory.

I understand why Obsidian is frustrated since there’s no one directly addressing the African-American community. I’m not sure how that specific demographic can be addressed.
I do think that ignoring what’s happened in the AA community isn’t wise because they have been the canary in the coal mine.

That contradicts the claim that some have made here, which is that they can get some on the side without negatively affecting their primary relationship at all.

I have known at least one guy who cheated on his wife multiple times. The sex did not make him feel guilty, but the cheating did. I understand that probably does not make any sense, but what he meant was that he never felt any closer to the girls he slept with nor any further from his wife.

But, knowing that he had been unfaithful to a girl who had done nothing to deserve it, that ate him up inside.

“That contradicts the claim that some have made here, which is that they can get some on the side without negatively affecting their primary relationship at all.

I have known at least one guy who cheated on his wife multiple times. The sex did not make him feel guilty, but the cheating did. I understand that probably does not make any sense, but what he meant was that he never felt any closer to the girls he slept with nor any further from his wife.

But, knowing that he had been unfaithful to a girl who had done nothing to deserve it, that ate him up inside.”

One of my closest friends is in this boat. He has had issues being faithful his entire life, and in all that time he says he has never become emotionally attached to his “on the side” sex partners. He did, however, say that at times he became physically addicted to them because of the kind of sex he had with them. (Most were of the kinky variety, which is primarily why he cheated so much. He does NOT want relationships with such women, but loves the kind of physical connection they make) He never once felt any less love and affection for his SO at the time either, and despite all this cheating managed to stay in a few relationships for some time. He is a few years older than me, and at this point is trying his best to leave all that behind. I do my best to support him, but I honestly think his “addiction” to kinky sex is close to a real drug addiction. It would be fine if he could get that from his SO, but his mental issue there follows my general thinking: He respects and loves her too much to treat her that way, and is afraid that if he DID treat her that way, that he would lose feelings for her, or not be able to see her the same way. I totally understand where he is coming from on that note, and it is a tough thing to overcome.

Ted, Olive

Whenever I come across -steel and Pittsburgh- the song “Maniac” from the movie Flashdance pops into my head. lol

Getting back to the topic, I don’t think the SMP problems are limited to the lowest socioeconomic classes anymore. Instead, what used to be a common in the lower classes a few decades ago (thru a myriad of social/economic factors), is now making ‘its way up the social ladder into the middle-class, many times through choice, which is boggling.

FWIW, I don’t see the very top, the wealthiest upper crust, as having had stable marriages- now or in the past. (Lots of divorces, remarriages, trading up)
It’s only the UMC that, as a group, has the stablest of unions (at least once there are kids involved).

“FWIW, I don’t see the very top, the wealthiest upper crust, as having had stable marriages- now or in the past. (Lots of divorces, remarriages, trading up)
It’s only the UMC that, as a group, has the stablest of unions (at least once there are kids involved).”

I agree. The trouble is, the UMC is shrinking, and as more couples fall into the LMC and below, all the issue down there affect them. In addition, I agree that those same issues are creeping upward towards what is left of the UMC.

@ Ted

He is your friend, so you support him. If you want to beieve he has an “addiction”, fine.You “totally understand where he is coming from” i e he has kinky sex on the side (and fidelity issues all his life) as an outlet from his marriage but he is actual preserving it doing this because if he did it with her he’d lose respect for her and “not see her the dame way”.

Did you see “Juraissic Park”? Well, this compares to the gigantic steaming mound of triceratops shit Sam O’Neill stuck his arm into, although Sam did pull out something useful.

Munson – You “totally understand where he is coming from” i e he has kinky sex on the side (and fidelity issues all his life) as an outlet from his marriage but he is actual preserving it doing this because if he did it with her he’d lose respect for her and “not see her the dame way

No sir. I understand that he doesn’t feel comfortable treating his wife like a slut. (his words, but i get it.) I’m not trying to defend him, and have told him to his face how much I am against cheating. He agrees with me on it, yet spent years cheating anyway. He is a good guy otherwise, and truly is my best male friend on earth.

My point here is that for him, the act of having sex with other women did NOT change how he felt about his wife. (or GF depending on time period). He never felt the urge to leave her, and never found himself emotionally involved with the mistress. (although the last mistress DID get attached, and it scared him straight, so far…)

I don’t agree with any of it. And my “support” consists of trying to keep him away from kinky sluts. If that is all I can do, so be it.

@ Munson

Sending prayers your way, hang in there.
———————
“indeed there were wives back in the day who were cool, at least if it was done discreetly away from Boise.”

I’ve seen plenty of wives looking the other way in my life, outside of Idaho. The women would stay because of how unacceptable divorce was in their community/family, because they wanted to maintain appearances, because of financial dependence, because they wanted the kids to continue having 2 parents…. simply put, for the convenience of it, but when it came to LOVE,
the love for the husband went right out the window.
And the kids almost always find out eventually and lose all respect for their father. *
And, God forbid, the cheating husband develops health issues somewhere down the line, dear wifey will have her payback day.

My experience is limited to cheating husbands because when there were cheating wives, the marriages were over as soon as the cat was out of the bag.

* Sidenote: (Admittedly, I haven’t read any evo-psych books, so I only know what I’ve read through hearsay, er, readsay? on blogs, but anyway…
I always wonder why children are left out of evo-psych equation, despite all of the talk about reproduction, it’s all about the male and female reproductive agenda and not how any of it affects kids.)

@ Ted
“My point here is that for him, the act of having sex with other women did NOT change how he felt about his wife. (or GF depending on time period). He never felt the urge to leave her, and never found himself emotionally involved with the mistress. (although the last mistress DID get attached, and it scared him straight, so far…)”

Similar to this woman on Athol’s blog who keeps her own blog where she teaches others how to get some on the side.
She meets up with random men she picks up online while her husband is oblivious, she doesn’t plan to leave him, claims to have a “good marriage” (ha ha HA HA),
sorry couldn’t keep my composure there…
she claims she loves her husband but needs to do kinky stuff with a variety of c*cks. She has NO emotional attachments to these other men (nor her husband), no plan to get a divorce.
Reading her blog makes one’s stomach do somersaults.
Frankly, I couldn’t keep a friendship with a person like that. I’d have no respect and loads of distrust for the person, but that’s just me.

@ Ted
“My guess? Because humans are naturally selfish, and despite the fact that cheating can very well lead to divorce, which is bad for children, I suspect most cheaters don’t give it much thought until after the fact, or after they are caught. I believe many have a “if they don’t know it can’t hurt them” outlook, which I’ve always seen as pure BS.”

Oh, I know it’s pure selfishness talking.
What I’m wondering is if evo-psych touches the *offspring agenda*, because I’ve never see it get mentioned.
What I’ve seen is that even tiny tots want their parents together, so I have strong opposition to following the adult agenda if it’s REALLY supposed to be about having offspring.

“What I’m wondering is if evo-psych touches the *offspring agenda*, because I’ve never see it get mentioned.”

Well, from a evo-psych slant, I believe the primary goal (at least for men) is to simply spread seed far and wide. I believe that pair bonding is probably an adaptive trait that came well after we were human-like, which means that sometime in our earlier history, we probably weren’t so concerned with the long-term viability of our children (again, at least the male perspective) and were more concerned with just making as many as possible.

Besides, the primary motivation for sex isn’t children. It is that sex feels great. Children are a side-effect, biologically speaking.