Vox Day’s Cad/Dad Solution

Dad or Cad?

In an effort to get a sense of the demographics of his readers, Vox Day recently posted a list of questions and asked for anonymous responses. He got 141 male and 14 female responses, which strikes me as an excellent response rate. He presented some of his data today at Alpha Game, and there was one finding he thought might be the “cad/dad solution” for HUS readers. Here it is:

6.  There is a noticeable difference between the Alphas and the High Alpha players.  The obvious dividing line there is around 40+ partners.  So, there is the all-important distinction that many women have requested.  Any man with more than 30+ historical partners should probably be assumed to be a ruthless player unfit for a long-term relationship as 62% of the men in this category were anti-marriage; only the male virgins, at 66%, were more strongly anti-marriage.  This compares with the 80% of Alphas in the 15-30 category who were pro-marriage; all of those who were anti-marriage were irreligious and most were divorced.

(Note: After looking at the data, Vox defined Alpha as 15+ partners.)

It should also be noted that for the purposes of his survey, Vox defined the number of sexual partners as including oral sex. Generally at HUS we do not include oral sex, so adjust your conclusions accordingly.

From Vox:

In other words, if a woman is addicted to Alpha and insists on attempting to transform a cad into a dad, she can increase her chances of success and actually harbor a reasonable hope of doing so if his partner count is more than 10 but less than 30, and if he is religious as well.

My thoughts:

1. Vox focuses on the lack of relationship fitness of guys who have had 40+ sex partners as a natural consequence of their being anti-marriage, although he also uses the word ruthless to describe their approach to sex.  I am not sure which comes first:

  • natural cad tendencies
  • opportunities for NSA sex
  • unwillingness to marry 
In any case, I agree with his conclusion.

 

2. I do not claim that men with 40+ partners would definitely make bad husbands, but regardless of their views of marriage, I would worry about men with that much sexual variety under their belts (heh). The 2004 National Life and Health Survey found:

For every premarital sexual partner, a man’s likelihood of being extremely sexually satisfied in marriage falls 5.3%. This means that a man with a number of 10 before marriage is 53% less likely to be describe himself as extremely satisfied in marriage. By implication, all men with 20 previous partners will feel moderately sexually satisfied in marriage at best.

3. Self-described religious Alphas with counts of 15-30 were pro-marriage.  I agree with Vox that these men represent real catches – they’ve achieved significant success with women, but still hold to traditional values. Of course, if a woman is not religious, she is probably not interested in marrying a religious man regardless of his partner count.

4. One commenter at Alpha Game made the following observation about STDs:

 There should be a qualifier for those claiming 35 to 40 plus conquests. Have they had/have an STD… And spare me the I always use a condom nonsense. Crabs, the drip, Derek Jeters Simplex 2 self identification would help separate the true players from the posers.

Vox agreed, saying, “Very good point on the STDs. Some of the alpha players I knew used to joke about playing STD bingo.” 

This leads me to my previous claims that women are repelled by manwhores. The problem with that claim is that women are clearly repelled only when a certain threshold, i.e. partner count, is reached. Before that tipping point, the male benefits from preselection. A woman’s repulsion probably also depends on how she learns of his sexual past. Does she see him hitting on slutty women in public? Or does he tell her honestly that back in the day he pulled quite a few girls, but now he’s ready for a serious relationship? I know I would respond very differently in those two scenarios.

I don’t think 15-30 partners is very worrisome or predictive of much, especially if that number includes blowjobs. I agree with Vox that there are plenty of dads in that cohort. 

30-40+ partners seems as good a place as any to draw a line for defining a cad. Since they wish to avoid marriage, even in their 30s, I’d say that high a number should probably be a dealbreaker for long-term dating. 

Vox has indeed proposed a strategically sound solution to the dad/cad dilemma. 

  • lovelost

    @HUS
    hopefully this is the 1st comment.

    ” It used to be called illegitimacy. Now it is the new normal. After steadily rising for five decades, the share of children born to unmarried women has crossed a threshold: more than half of births to American women under 30 occur outside marriage.”

    i don’t think it is OT, since the post is about # of partners. here is the link to the NY article

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/us/for-women-under-30-most-births-occur-outside-marriage.html

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    Question for the married women- Do your partners know your count? Mine knows mine by default, but I have no idea about my husband’s. I can extrapolate aguess from the fact that he’s personally conservative, but also really hot and a dude. To be perfectly honest I would only care if it was very low. Which is incredible, as it was VERY important to my husband that I was relatively chaste, even though he is nowhere near religious.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Flavia

      To be perfectly honest I would only care if it was very low

      Are you saying that if you learned your husband had a low number of previous partners, you would feel less attracted to him?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Flavia

      I just had a great time digging around on your blog. I loved the Home Ec photo, very timely. And the Valentine’s Day post, that was really clever. I’ve added you to the Blogroll, and you should sign up for Comment Luv too!

  • Passer_By

    “Self-described religious Alphas with counts of 15-30 . . .”

    Seems like a bit of a contradiction in terms, absent a late life conversion (how convenient).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      Seems like a bit of a contradiction in terms, absent a late life conversion (how convenient).

      Yes, VD made that point. He said that if it wasn’t late in life, then the religiosity would obviously be questionable. I believe that describes VD himself, so it does happen.

  • anonymous

    Susan: “Generally at HUS we do not include oral sex”
    What?!
    Then I want my money back!

    SW: “Self-described religious Alphas with counts of 15-30 . . .”

    Passer_By: ” Seems like a bit of a contradiction in terms, absent a late life conversion (how convenient).”

    ha ha Born-again betas?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    My husband and I know each other’s exact number of past partners. We’re both single digit, but I had long relationships whereas he did not.

    Personally I think it’d be better for young girls to look for guys who have a single-digit past (counting oral) than guys who are “reformed” and looking to get married.

    I’d rather make sure to get a real dad than a cad in dad’s clothing.

  • VD

    Seems like a bit of a contradiction in terms, absent a late life conversion (how convenient).

    It’s not exactly unheard of, given that Augustine of Hippo described the concept in his Confessions back in the year 398. And if you consider it, it makes some sense that those who have tried everything, tasted the best that the world has to offer, and ultimately found it to be unfulfilling might be somewhat more disposed to turn to religion than the average individual. It’s similar the way ex-smokers and ex-drinkers are often relatively intolerant of smoking and drinking.

    Also, there is the personality element. Just as Michael Jordan is a ruthless competitor on or off the basketball court, a reformed player may be as single-minded about to his new commitments as he once was to chasing women. I’m not suggesting that it is wise for women to chase Alphas, I actually think it is very risky. But if a woman is going to do it – and as we all know, many will – the available evidence suggests that there are ways for her to increase her probabilities of LTR success by being careful to distinguish between a moderate-count Alpha and a high-count High Alpha player.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      the available evidence suggests that there are ways for her to increase her probabilities of LTR success by being careful to distinguish between a moderate-count Alpha and a high-count High Alpha player.

      Exactly. If we’re going to go at this strategically, which is what I try to do, then we need to consider ways of reducing risk and/or increasing the payout. Vox’s solution does that. Is it for everyone? Obviously not; as I said, you have to want a religious guy for starters. I think my biggest worry, and I would need to test it in the relationship, would be that I just couldn’t rock his world sexually after he’d been with 30 women or more.

      I just realized something. Are these reformed Alphas now refraining from premarital sex? Because that’s a no go! Why should we have to wait when they gave it to so many other women for free? ;)

  • FormerPlaya

    So much fodder here, I tell ya! I think Vox is onto several good, solid points here, and any guy whose notch count is into three digits has some pretty serious issues which no sensible woman should want to, ahem, penetrate.

    I’m not sure exactly what a “cad” is circa 2012 but I’m pretty certain that, on occasion, a cad (or perhaps semi-cad) can become a dad – I saw one when I looked into the mirror while shaving this morning – and, unfortunately, more than a few dads turn into cads after being a**-raped in a bad divorce. Not like the boundary is all that well defined or firmly fixed, all I’m sayin’ …

    The issue, if you’re an Alpha who’s bedded platoons of women, is why you’ve done it. Note: biological urges or climbing Everest because it’s “there” are not the answers I’m talking about. Alphas with high notch counts, the guys who are naturals who get same-night lays with hot girls seemingly effortlessly, are two distinct types (yes, I am speaking from the inside, as it were): 1. Men who hate women, and 2. Men who love women.

    That clear it up?

    What I mean is men who really deeply loathe women are Category 1. They are acting out pathologies perhaps deep in them which have been reinforced by what I will euphemistically term “current trends.” They are scary dudes you don’t want to get near. Sociopathy isn’t fun up-close, I promise.

    But guys in Category 2 appear similar, superficially and at a distance, but have very different motivations. They are masculine guys, man’s men, yet they have had a lot of foundational female experience – usually a close yet healthy relationship with mommy, sisters, aunts, et al – and know how to talk to women and feel empathy without going girly themselves. Those guys are firmly Alpha yet actually like women as women (not the annoying ones, mind you, the nice ones). They get laid massively and they are not toxic, in fact the right one will make you a better woman.

    The difference, ladies, is learning to tell the difference: very important. If you know anything about male psychology the clues are easy to spot. Detecting them is the difference between dating a bad guy and dating a good guy. Different experiences and outcomes, I promise. They are both attractive to you and your hamster, be careful!

    As for manwhores – not a good thing, but I gotta say, my high (yet not insane, indicating professional sex work) notch count never held me back. And, hey, I’m really good in bed, what can I say? Every gal wants to be the one who tames the Alpha. Hope springs eternal, of course, but it can happen.

    I’ll remind my lovely wife of that when she’s making dinner tonight.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Former Playa

      Hey, good to see you back here! OK, I have some questions for you.

      The difference, ladies, is learning to tell the difference: very important. If you know anything about male psychology the clues are easy to spot.

      Agreed, that is very important! Let’s assume for the moment that we don’t know anything about male psychology. What are the clues? How do we tell the difference?

      How did your wife tame you? What did she offer? Assuming she had high SMV in keeping with yours, had she ridden the alpha cock carousel or kept her number low? How old were you when you decided to settle down and why? What do you think about the finding that every previous partner reduces marital sexual satisfaction? Do you feel that you crave variety less or more than a guy with a lower number (assuming you have a sense of this)?

      You’re probably sorry you stopped by, but we don’t get to quiz former playas very often.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Former Playa

      I’ve been thinking about something you said yesterday.

      any guy whose notch count is into three digits has some pretty serious issues which no sensible woman should want to, ahem, penetrate.

      You’ve said that your count is high two digits. Where do you draw the line for “serious issues?” Is there really a difference between the man who’s been with 80 women and the man who’s been with 100? I’m genuinely interested to know what separates those two men, and how significant it is.

  • FormerPlaya

    And I forgot: religious Alphas are rare yet do exist. They’re actually conflicted and following the St Augustine line about “make me chaste, Lord, but not yet.” A noble tradition, if you will. They feel sorta bad about it all, but not enough to stop. Until Miss Right comes along.

    During the journey from bed to bed there are long conversations with therapists, friends, and clergy – I recall quite a few tough confessions myself, fortunately my priest was straight; it’s funny now.

  • Days of Broken Arrows

    That’s it? 15 makes you Alpha?

    I don’t buy this. I was no Alpha and it was easy for me to rack up near that by the time I graduated college and I was NOT aggressive with women. Also, I was very short, cute but not gorgeous, and in a field where people assumed I’d make no money.

    I think it’s more like 25-30 makes you Alpha and 70 makes you Super Alpha. I always felt like I was missing out and other guys were doing better, but I was afraid of disaster if I bedded mentally unstable women (which happened) or women that would get too attached (ditto).

    Anyway, nice post.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @DBA

      I don’t buy this. I was no Alpha and it was easy for me to rack up near that by the time I graduated college and I was NOT aggressive with women. Also, I was very short, cute but not gorgeous, and in a field where people assumed I’d make no money.

      15 sexual intercourse partners by college graduation puts you in the top 2% of males. Sounds to me like you’re selling yourself short. There are a couple of interesting thoughts I have about this. Perhaps one or more of these is true?:

      If you are beta by Vox’s definition, you do fine with women. Not all betas are in the sexual desert.

      Lack of height in males is not as big a dealbreaker as people assume. I know how women answer surveys, but I’ve seen lots of short men do well with women. I never selected for height myself, and I dated lots of short men. I did marry a tall man, but I don’t think I fell for him for any reason having to do with height.

      There are lots of fields that pay poorly and still appeal to women. Anything creative or related to design fits into this category. All the performing arts.

  • The CronoLink

    DBA, a high body count does not an ALPHA make.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @The CronoLink

      DBA, a high body count does not an ALPHA make.

      Interesting discussion on the way! Give us your definition of alpha, please.

  • FormerPlaya

    TCL: This gets into the highly subjective field of what a “high” notch (not “body” – this isn’t ‘Nam, man) count is. It’s like a duck, really – guys know how to identify the feathers and distinctive quack.

    And I firmly agree that the essence of Alpha is the ability to bang lots of chicks, not necessarily doing it. I didn’t give up being an Alpha the day I got married: impossible.

    That said, I have met very few Alphas – and zero naturals (as opposed to guys who read up on Game and got good at it) – with a low count.

    Could happen, seldom seems to.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    “I don’t buy this. I was no Alpha and it was easy for me to rack up near that by the time I graduated college and I was NOT aggressive with women. Also, I was very short, cute but not gorgeous, and in a field where people assumed I’d make no money.”

    You could easily fall into the ‘natural Alpha’ distinction. You don’t have to make lots of money or be aggressive with your pursuit of women to be Alpha. Most of it is being outcome independent (not aggressive) and show that you have value.

    Personally, I’m about the same only I’m lower in count and would consider myself a greater Beta. I work in theatre (aka poor but able to make a living at it), and at 26 have a count of 10 under Vox’s guidelines of oral.

    Rollo just had a great post about what makes an Alpha – namely its what attracts women. Contexts are key. If you don’t attract women, you’re not Alpha. If you do, you are. I think this definition is great at breaking down some of the previous barriers in approaching the definitions and, hopefully, will lead to some interesting discussions.

    For example – that bad boy in high school/college that had a motorcycle, shitty apartment, but fearless attitude would probably be Alpha. A STEM guy working hard at college, only dating one girl for three years probably classified as Beta. You take the same men, 15 years later and the first may have lost all attractiveness because of health issues, no income, etc. He’s gone from Alpha to Delta. The second could have gained a healthy dose of self esteem, great income, good with ladies now. Instead of dating one girl he has a choice of 4 pursuing him. He’s gone from beta to Alpha because he’s seen as a catch.

    All about context.

  • VD

    That’s it? 15 makes you Alpha?

    No, that’s not it. It’s merely an important indicator. This should be obvious, since we’re discussing a socio-sexual hierarchy and therefore mere sexual history cannot be the sole determining factor. Perhaps you’re slumming. Perhaps you’re lucky. Perhaps you were raised in a bizarre sex cult. Who knows? But 15+ does tend to indicate that you may be an Alpha or at least possess an amount of genuine Alpha potential. Even if Tom Brady had never been involved with any other women than Giselle Bundchen and Bridget Moynahan, he would be much more of an Alpha than Joe Dude at Podunk University who has cut a wide swath through the sisters of Slagga Nasta Slutta.

    Game is an art, not a science, and as with economics, one can’t simply start assigning meaning to numbers and declare one has thereby determined meaningful results. It’s very important not to latch on to every guideline and indicator in an attempt to turn it into a cast-iron rule.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Question for the married women- Do your partners know your count? Mine knows mine by default, but I have no idea about my husband’s.

    He knows that I had only had sex with him, he doesn’t really want to know how many boyfriends or how many times I had been in love. I do know all his exes name’s who he loved the most, why they broke up and so on. he is is single digit with no ONS or FWB with makes him good in my eyes. I always though it was a good test to see how a man talks about the former women’s in their lives. I mean one or two bad experiences can happen to anyone but if all he has to say is that all her exes are crazy witches that abused the poor him…run to the opposite direction.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Curious.

    What other allowances in conclusions are people making when considering the fact that the people reading Vox’s website are more likely to have several things than the general populace:

    Higher knowledge of divorce laws
    Higher desire to achieve “alpha-ness” or atleast work at not pedestalizing
    Readers that also subscribe to other aspects of the Manosphere (Roosh, Rollo, Roissy, etc)
    Also, the average age of 37 for the respondents.

    While I’m a regular of Vox, I definitely don’t fall into any of the demographics and, with that high an age of respondents, I’m not sure how many marriage prone people my age (26) would fall into these same categories.

    I think i’m going to have to go back and read the Millennials post you just did with these new stats in mind.

  • WarmWoman

    “Susan: “Generally at HUS we do not include oral sex”

    Do you mean you and your spouse, or HUS in general? I’m not sure how happy men would be if a woman only included the 3 people that she had P in V with as her partner count, and then ignored purely oral sex encounters with others. Some of the “technical” virgins I knew in college had 10 oral and anal sex escapades under their belt already.

    I have a visceral reaction to a man with 30 partners or more. Call me a hypocrite that I’ve gotten triggered by people judging someone’s past, but perhaps it’s just the fact that 30 partners is much higher than my count that weirds me out.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @WW

      Do you mean you and your spouse, or HUS in general? I’m not sure how happy men would be if a woman only included the 3 people that she had P in V with as her partner count, and then ignored purely oral sex encounters with others.

      Good Lord, no I don’t mean my spouse. Here’s a tidbit for you: My husband and I have never once discussed our respective numbers. I think we both have a general sense of what life was like before we met, and we both saw each other have some casual flings in school before we got together. We have discussed relationships, exes, etc. but never the number of sexual partners.

      As for what “the number” means, it is usually just P in V. That’s what girls talk about IRL. In fact, I’ve known girls to look up old hookups and get together for sex, because it’s a “freebie.” I’ll agree it’s not particularly accurate, but women are going to go with the count that’s lowest, and that’s P in V. There are exceptions – not just Vox but several academic studies have defined sex partners as people with whom you have engaged in vaginal, anal or oral sex.

  • WarmWoman

    “I just realized something. Are these reformed Alphas now refraining from premarital sex? Because that’s a no go! Why should we have to wait when they gave it to so many other women for free? ”

    Hahahaha

  • J

    Question for the married women- Do your partners know your count?

    Neither of us has ever asked the other for a number or volunteered one, though I believe both of us have low numbers, especially when you consider long years of singlehood. We are both fairly familiar with each other’s history though and know about important relationships. We have also both run into each other’s exes.
    It frankly isn’t a big deal for either one of us.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      We have also both run into each other’s exes.

      I’ve told this story before, but I think a lot of current commenters haven’t heard it. When my husband set off for b-school, where we met, he had been dating someone for several months. They decided not to stay together when he left, and one factor was her confusion about her sexuality. Of course, he was somewhat haunted by this – kind of like George Constanza turning Susan into a lesbian on Seinfeld. I always found it a bit threatening as well – the smart, independent woman who is so sexual she wants everybody.

      We moved up to Cambridge, MA, where my husband had lived before, when I was about 4 months pregnant. I was at that stage where my jeans were getting small but I hadn’t bought maternity clothes. So we’re at the hardware store, buying cleaning supplies for the condo we’ve just moved into. My jeans waistband is undone, and my belly sticks out a bit. I am also grubby – no makeup, hoodie sweatshirt. As we walk out of the hardware store, I am carrying a bucket full of supplies in one hand and a mop in the other. When boom, we bump into the mysterious Nina. It’s 10 on a Saturday morning and she’s standing there with her eyeliner and her vintage bomber jacket. My husband is introducing me, and I just want to crawl away.

      I did have a second chance, though. Years later, when our kids were 5 and 3, we bumped into her at a restaurant on Martha’s Vineyard. I felt that I looked my best, and my children were adorable. She looked haggard – clearly on her way to being a “onelie.”

      Exes can be quite threatening.

  • Charm

    I agree with WW.

    If a man that was looking for marriage was in the double digits, I’d probably have to pass. I recognize it probably isn’t fair, but I would be repulsed by it. In my mind, every time a person has sex they give a part of themselves away. After a certain point you just get used up and I don’t want a man that’s been used up. I’m not investing my time on this earth into someone like that. I’m just not.

    I keep trying to come up with a rational reason for this repulsion, but I can’t think of one. It’s simply “not right”. I don’t think its something I could get over. When I invest in someone I want them to be mine. I’m selfish when I care about someone. Plus, when men have slept around with that many women odds are quite of few of them were trashy. I don’t do trashy.

    I’m very open-minded but I have prude locked down when it comes to who I will consider for sex and a relationship. I still foolishly like to believe that sex is *gasp* special between two people regardless of how much it is devalued currently.

    Women wouldn’t have to worry about me competing for alpha’s, I always look on the peripheral anyway. I’ve found that’s where the best people are hiding anyway.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Charm and WW are interesting, in that they are clearly in that group of women who will indeed reject a manslut. Personally, I don’t think low double digits qualifies, but I respect their right to judge that.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Well, if a cad is the opposite of a dad, then a real cad is the guy who:

    - Doesn’t like kids. Thinks babies are gross. Hates the way young children say “daddy daddy!” all excitedly.
    - Looks upon his own newborn baby and says without any forethought, “how hideous.”
    - Has no moral qualms about leaving his kids and his kids’ mama to the wolves.
    - Makes sure his kids don’t see him and don’t talk to him a whole lot.
    - Is never there for his kids. Missed every one of the kids’ milestones like walking, talking, writing, first missed tooth, first A grade and every school graduation. Doesn’t care that he missed them either.

    That’s how a real cad would treat his kids. If you’re a “player” but would never agree to any of the above points, kudos to you. You may be a player, but you’re no cad. You can still be a decent dad.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      That’s a good distinction. I don’t think that cad is the opposite of dad, though. More like the guy who wouldn’t make a good dad. Researchers coined the cad vs. dad term, no doubt because it’s catchy, and close enough for government work.

  • FormerPlaya

    Hi Susan, glad to be back … I’ll try and do your queries some rough justice:

    1. What are the clues? How do we tell the difference?
    I have some bias, since I was once an International Man of Mystery (really, call me 008 if you like), so I am good at reading people, but I think a solid way for a gal to “read” a guy on this is to ask him – NOT on a first date or even second, built some rapport first so he’s ready to open up a bit – in a casual way about his relations with women. Not primarily sexual, all of them, family too. See how he reacts, watch his eye movements. Obviously if he announces, “I don’t talk to my mom and sister cause they’re all whores!” – run, fast. But any squirellyness should be watched for, this should not be a tough question.

    2. How did your wife tame you? What did she offer?
    Timing matters, always. When I met my bride, a few months before I had come off a bad – ok, horrific – relationship with a smart and funny gal, pretty and great while unclothed, who was also really toxic. Some women who are crazy in bad are also … crazy: note to self. It was a nightmare, police involvement, restraining orders, etc. So I was walking wounded. DreamGirl got this and was really nice about it, she helped me get past it. Also, to be brutally honest, she looked a lot like PsychoGirl (I have a definite “type”) and had almost all of her good points and none of her awful ones. So a nice step forward, when I was ready for it – she made no, as in ZERO, attempt to rush me, it was all my schedule. She is wise and traditional (also, European, not American) and grew up in a somewhat patriarchal household – important. From my viewpoint, having lived abroad a lot, she was the vaunted “total package”. I want to note, she is pretty but not a “10″ – that’s important, why lie, but being attractive TO ME is all that really matters. The cock don’t lie, ever.

    3. Assuming she had high SMV in keeping with yours, had she ridden the alpha cock carousel or kept her number low?
    Her number was low compared to MINE – an important consideration. She was never a slut by most guys’ definition, but she had had a couple bad relationships, a few silly one night stands, etc. I’d call her a normal gal of the era, but also someone who never wanted to be overtly whorish. As an Alpha with a lot of notches, I didn’t pine for a virgin bride (it was offered in the past: no thanks) but neither did I want the town bike. The Mrs’ count is, I dunno, maybe 1/7 or 1/8 of mine? Ok by me. The past, as long as it’s the past is … the past.

    4. How old were you when you decided to settle down and why?
    Mid-30s, a good age for me, and a lot of men. Starting to get wise to the world at a deep, unconscious level. I knew she was The One — really, I knew it and, frankly, her willingness to be patient about my “issues” was what sealed the deal. Not gonna lie, the first months were tough, I was a wounded pain in the ass who also worked long hours and traveled all the time, but she put up with it. She made a “mistake” during that initial period, I made several – and she was totally honest about it, and therefore I was too (hardly my usual MO). The honesty was invaluable, and decisive.

    5. What do you think about the finding that every previous partner reduces marital sexual satisfaction?
    Maybe — to use my favorite phrase: “it depends.” I haven’t run around on my wife, I have no need to, she is very attentive to all my needs, including sexual. She is also very good in bed and keeps me happy; her kink matches my kink, if you will. Perhaps paradoxically, my ex-caddish ways keep me on the straight and narrow: having banged a lot of babes, I am under no illusion that the Perfect Woman is over the next hill, at the next bar, nor do I think that an encounter with the Perfect Vagina will solve all my life’s problems. Au contraire, madame. Also, my wife has always had a rule that I can fuck anyone I like, as long as I tell her about it, after, bring home no diseases nor unwanted heirs, and don’t fuck any gal more than thrice (which to her would be an “affair” and therefore verboten). Never strayed, not even once.

    6. Do you feel that you crave variety less or more than a guy with a lower number (assuming you have a sense of this)?
    I have needs, I’m a normal guy, so if the Mrs were bad in bed, or not wanting to please me, it would never work. But then again, I wouldn’t marry someone who didn’t meet those needs anyway, so the question has its limitations. If you’re a guy who’s had a lot of fun and exciting sex with a lot of women, please – please – don’t marry Miss Vanilla, you will stray, cause pain, wind up divorced, etc. Sexual compatibility isn’t the top issue, but if you’re a Former Playa like me, it certainly matters. The Mrs knows what I like, does that, and – how convenient! – it’s what gets her rocks off too. If you find that, and you have deeper compatibilities, you have found The One.

    How’s that, Susan?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Former Playa

      That’s awesome! Great qualitative info there, thanks very much. Might have to turn that into a post. It sounds like your wife is an incredibly patient woman, and she held out for what she wanted – you. Good for you both. Flipping a player is not for the faint of heart.

  • Sassy6519

    TCL: This gets into the highly subjective field of what a “high” notch (not “body” – this isn’t ‘Nam, man) count is. It’s like a duck, really – guys know how to identify the feathers and distinctive quack.

    And I firmly agree that the essence of Alpha is the ability to bang lots of chicks, not necessarily doing it. I didn’t give up being an Alpha the day I got married: impossible.

    That’s my take on this too. A high partner count doesn’t make a man an alpha. The ability to draw women to him, not necessarily the consummation, implies alpha tendencies.

  • Jackie

    @WW (#19)
    @Charm (#24)
    Co-signed, 110%. I want to be able to admire, respect and devote myself to my husband. My hope is to find a man of exceptional character; that makes him titanium-strength alpha to me, even if the rest of the world disagrees.

    As for the “religious alphas”: Personally, I would be really, really hurt to have saved myself for marriage, only to find out that I would be #31 for him. I would be wondering about possible diseases that he may not be manifesting. And any children that may show up out of the woodwork, years later. :(

    Besides that, I would be asking a LOT of questions of his conversion and his devotion, while watching his actions. Because faith takes *practice*, devotion takes *effort* and they both require a TON of self-denial at times. Heck, I’m getting ready to give up the internet and soda pop for 40 days for Lent! (Susan & HUS, I will miss you guys heaps! :( )

    I question how someone can turn something like religious conviction on and off, like a switch. When it does happen (Saul on the Road to Damascus), the person seems to be all fire-and-brimstone-y afterwards. (E.g. One of my friend’s dads was a pastor who had been quite wild before his conversion. I have never seen a stricter denunciation of sins.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      Thanks for making one last appearance before Ash Wednesday!

      Heck, I’m getting ready to give up the internet and soda pop for 40 days for Lent! (Susan & HUS, I will miss you guys heaps! )

      Me too, I’ll be counting down the days.

      I can certainly understand your feelings about your future husband having been with 30 women before. It’s pretty clear that there is no absolute – there appears to be a ratio: Female sexual partners/Male sexual partners – that matters to both men and women.

  • OffTheCuff

    He said that if it wasn’t late in life, then the religiosity would obviously be questionable.

    It still is questionable, even late in life. This is called “having your cake and eating too”.

    15-30 is not worrisome? I’m really disappointed in you here. That’s a large number at any age when the medians are around 3 (f) and 6 (m).

    Yet more proof there’s zero reason for a man to ever turn down sex. Low numbers are what’s icky these days.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OffTheCuff

      15-30 is not worrisome? I’m really disappointed in you here. That’s a large number at any age when the medians are around 3 (f) and 6 (m).

      I knew some would feel that way. Don’t forget, I got to double digits, and I’m sure my husband did as well. It’s all relative. Actually, 15-30 might be worth worrying about – it depends on the person, I guess. Certainly that survey implied that it would be a serious problem in terms of marital satisfaction.

      You’re a case in point – as I recall, you’ve said that you and Mrs. Cuff got together early on, and you clearly have an amazing sex life, so….I’d say you both chose well.

  • Ted D

    “Question for the married women- Do your partners know your count?”

    My wife and every SO I’ve had knew/knows my number, and I know/knew theirs. Yes, I asked.

  • Warm woman

    Are you saying that most his posters dont count oral sex partners? So, a woman can say that her number i

  • FormerPlaya

    @ Sassy — roger that, sister!

    @ Jackie — I hear you, but I think we’re using different theological verbiage here. I was never under the illusion that my being a Playa was “ok”; rather, I convinced myself, sorta, that all the good things I did *not* with my dick (and I did: like working PT on charitable works, feeding the homeless, etc) magically “made up” for my sinning in other areas. My priest-confessor didn’t buy that, but he was also compassionate; after a while he simply said, “I know what you’re doing on the weekends” – wise man, he won out in the end. Also, let’s be clear: every woman I bedded was an adult there, naked and legs splayed, of her own volition, and I never lied to any woman about my “intentions.” That’s not a justification, just a statement of fact. If women want to be treated like equals, that applies across the board.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Former Playa

      Also, let’s be clear: every woman I bedded was an adult there, naked and legs splayed, of her own volition, and I never lied to any woman about my “intentions.” That’s not a justification, just a statement of fact. If women want to be treated like equals, that applies across the board.

      And that’s why you’re not a Former Cad.

  • this is jen

    Anacaona February 21, 2012 at 6:12 pm
    Question for the married women- Do your partners know your count? Mine knows mine by default, but I have no idea about my husband’s.

    He knows that I had only had sex with him, he doesn’t really want to know how many boyfriends or how many times I had been in love. I do know all his exes name’s who he loved the most, why they broke up and so on. he is is single digit with no ONS or FWB with makes him good in my eyes. I always though it was a good test to see how a man talks about the former women’s in their lives. I mean one or two bad experiences can happen to anyone but if all he has to say is that all her exes are crazy witches that abused the poor him…run to the opposite direction.

    ………………………………………..

    I am a married women. My husband knows about every guy I dated, loved, had any kind of physicality with. He still thinks there are more I haven’t told him about. I have no idea why. I don’t believe he has ever given me a number, but we have talked about the many women he has had. It dawns on me now that I have never actually tried to count them up. But I do love hearing the stories-and he cannot understand why-because he doesn’t like to think of the guys I dated. The tales of his exploits fascinate me.

    From what I have read today I would classify him as a religious Alpha- which makes him a great husband and a great dad. I am very very lucky to have found him.

  • Jackie

    @FormerPlaya (#32)
    Hi FP,
    Thanks for replying to me; I really do appreciate it.

    And it’s good to know that you weren’t deluding yourself, I think that is great! (BTW, I think many many many people have done similarly. For some interesting reading, check out “indulgences” of the medieval era. That’s how they got a lot of fancy churches built ;) )

    Your priest sounds really cool. My mentor is a nun, and even if I start to delude myself on the smallest things, she will call me on it. She won in the end, too! :) If you feel comfortable sharing, how did you find this person?

    Kindest regards, FP–

    PS: Why do you choose the handle “FormerPlaya”? To me, it looks like being a player, even a former one, is still defining how you view yourself. Thanks for considering my questions!

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    @Susan…Awesome!! Thanks so much for adding me, wow!

    Yeah, it is totally hamster of me, but I feel if his numbers were in the 2-5 range he’d remember them a lot more and they would be much more meaningful- for example I only have one other point of reference. But honestly, I’d be lying if I told you I had any idea…we met young.

    I just like to think of them as a string of hazy inferior conquests which he can’t care to remember t0o well : D

    And yeah, part of me likes that he has high SMV. Thank god he’s an introvert who doesn’t enjoy the natter of women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Flavia

      Yeah, it is totally hamster of me, but I feel if his numbers were in the 2-5 range he’d remember them a lot more and they would be much more meaningful

      I’m so glad I asked I totally misunderstood your meaning. I thought you were suggesting that if he hadn’t been with a lot of women, you would find him less attractive for not having had some casual sex. But you’re saying the opposite. That is very interesting – I have not heard this expressed before.

  • Charm

    @Jackie

    Character is the MOST important thing. That comes first on any list.

    I do however think that people get exactly what they deserve. A man thats banged dozens of women will end up with a woman who is okay with that. It says something about her and him. Just like men who use dark game–you get what you deserve.

    I’ve read on many a game blog about how men like women who are sexually selective, so if I’m sexually selective, why would I have sex with a man who wasn’t? I think this is where pre-selection comes in, but I’m kind of meh about that. To me, the only way that preselection works is if the woman cares whether or not other women approve or are attracted to her mate. I could care less. Other peoples opinions don’t dictate my behavior.

    I’m not gonna hate on other people though. Let them choose what they choose, but I know where I stand, and I’m not budging. I feel like partner count is one of those things I don’t really want to know, but would have to know because otherwise I know I’d be disappointed when I found out. I have a problem with projecting a positive image onto things that are ambiguous or left unsaid.

    People keep trying to play the “it shouldn’t matter” game, but I call B.S. Maybe it shouldn’t matter, but it does. It just does. This is why we keep talking about it. Things that don’t matter don’t keep getting talked about.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    @Susan. I also want to add that I totally pedestalize my husband, so I can’t imagine any woman coming across him and not wanting to F him. So maybe I am thinking his numbers are higher. He’s a conservative introvert.

    How about you? Did you care? Do you know?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Flavia

      How about you? Did you care? Do you know?

      Early on, I felt very threatened by my husband’s experiences, particularly those I knew about at school. Over time, as I grew more confident in our relationship, I was able to let it go. I don’t know his number – and I’m not sure he does either to be honest. I had to sit down and come up with mine after I started blogging. A generation ago we did not keep track. I never even heard the number discussed before starting HUS. I believe it’s a natural consequence in an era of casual sex.

  • JQ

    @Susan:

    I find myself interested in reading more about the methodology and findings associated with the 5.3%/partner statistic cited in your second enumerated thought in the original post.

    If you have the citation close at hand I would be much obliged. If it is not, perhaps you could clear something up for me: If the probability of being “extremely sexually satisfied” were P for a man with N partners, does this mean the probability of being extremely sexually satisfied with N+1 partners is 0.947P?

    I merely wish to ensure I properly understand the figure before commenting.

  • FormerPlaya

    Jackie: Hey, nice feedback, cool. I chose the FP handle because if the site has “Hooking Up” in the title, I need to establish my bona fides, right? :)

    My cousin, one of my cloest friends too, is a priest, so I know a lot of clergy; my confessor was my cousin’s confessor … keep it in the family, just like the mafia.

  • FormerPlaya

    @ Susan (Note: I am making up for my absence by overposting; you kinda asked for it, IMHO lol ):

    “Lack of height in males is not as big a dealbreaker as people assume.”

    So very true. It’s all in the head. Up front: I am six feet and look Nordic, as in just stepped off a Viking longship and I’m gonna burn your medieval village down.

    But my BFF, since age 10, is a nice looking but slightly nebbishy Jewish guy who’s about 5-6. And, honestly, he had a complex about this since we were teenagers. There were near-teary convos about this in a way straight guys seldom do; we even might have hugged – shhhhh!

    And guess what? After – I dunno, 20 years of my telling him to get over it, it’s just not that big a deal, really – he’s married to a lovely, much younger blonde – a model, really – who’s about 5-10 without shoes. She could care less. He’s kind, funny, and he keeps her on the sweet-yet-short leash she’s always wanted.

    All it took was his waking up to the fact that his obsession wasn’t everyone else’s.

  • Jackie

    @Charm (#38)

    “People keep trying to play the “it shouldn’t matter” game, but I call B.S. Maybe it shouldn’t matter, but it does. It just does. This is why we keep talking about it. Things that don’t matter don’t keep getting talked about.”

    ITA (I Totally Agree) It’s like people are being sold snake-oil with sex-positivity: “Numbers don’t matter!” And if you have beliefs to the contrary, somehow *you* are in the wrong. :(

    For me, any possible partner represents:
    A) chance at pregnancy
    B) bonding experience that will make it nearly impossible for me to leave
    C) possible chance of disease

    When I read about guys having sex with dozens of women, I wonder if any of the above concern them. I have known women get pregnant on the pill, condoms, IUDs, *and* doubling up on some methods. (One of them kept the baby; she and the father got engaged. The baby is now in kindergarten and everything is still up in the air, waiting for “someday.”)

    You are right, Charm: Numbers do matter. I don’t think we should be throwing stones at people. But instead, *talking* about this, articulating concerns and figuring it out. Before the high numbers start, y’know?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      For me, any possible partner represents:
      A) chance at pregnancy
      B) bonding experience that will make it nearly impossible for me to leave
      C) possible chance of disease

      Absolutely! The female risks more in every way from a single sexual encounter.

  • FormerPlaya

    FWIW: I have never been rejected on being a “manslut” though I am/was in the high double digits. And I have intentionally avoided obvious ho’s, not my shizzle. In fact there is nothing hotter than the good (or good-ish) girl who will go bad for moi. I was deflowering virgins into my 30s, not by design. Something odd here ….

  • WarmWoman

    @Susan

    I don’t want to come off as judgemental. I might be able to overlook a high partner count, as long he committed to monogamy and I felt he was the man for me. Since I haven’t been in this situation, I don’t know exactly what I would do. ;)

    To be honest, I think I can finally understand why men have an instinctive knee-jerk reaction when a woman is vividly discussing the details of her sex history.

    I remember also being taken aback by a female friend, who’s number was 50+. I criticized myself to be more open-minded, but it was such a natural reaction. This is someone who appears to not be able to bond with someone.

  • WarmWoman

    Let me state this…..I would definitely prefer to be with someone with a lower partner count than 30.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Susan, wow what a story. Yeah being in the “awkward” phase of feeling frumpy but not yet really showing yet would be a bad time to meet a vivacious overly sexual ex for the first time!

  • Jackie

    @WW (#54)

    “To be honest, I think I can finally understand why men have an instinctive knee-jerk reaction when a woman is vividly discussing the details of her sex history.”

    Me, too! *lightbulb clicks on*

    Do you remember that earlier thread where we were talking about the porn-star-turned-Christian? Maybe it was you, Olive, Jesus M? I remember mentioning my friend, who had been a stripper. (Her # was so high, she didn’t even know what it was.)

    Anyway, Jesus M (I think) would agree that we should definitely show compassion and mercy, with the caveat they they were not good relationship prospects. I remember thinking at the time, Why add that caveat?

    But now? I understand SO much more. Maybe it makes me a bad person, but I just don’t think I could ever consider a man whose number was so high he didn’t know what it was.

  • Jackie

    @Susan (#50)
    Aww, thanks so much! :D

    BTW, would you believe I am *still* recovering from that stupid illness? My dad made me go to UrgentCare last night– thinking it might be pneumonia. :( Fortunately, it’s not and I’m finally healed enough to start eating solid food and getting stuff done. Right now, I am drinking Dr. Pepper like a boss and enjoying the last part of being online. :) I found a sweet little movie, similar to N&S, called “Nicholas Nickleby” from 2003 that is on Netflix Instant. You might like it!

    BTW, I left this on the Cherry Tree thread, but major kudos on getting mentioned in Essence magazine! It does not surprise me in the least that you & HUS continue to garner national attention. If I were you, I would start watching the author segments on the morning chat shows (GMA, etc) for what they are wearing, the questions they get, etc.

    You are poised to become the 21st Century Marmee of the Internet, I think! :-)

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Susan “a generation ago we did not keep track.”

    This is pretty interesting. I think my mother-in-law is the same way. I’ve also heard that my father-in-law sowed a lot of wild oats back in the day.

    @Flavia, yep I pedestalize my husband, too. He is the ultimate alpha to me, and I say stuff to him like, “I bet girls throw themselves at you,” to which he says, “quit smoking crack.” :P

    I’m also glad his past number partner count is low, even counting oral. I vastly prefer that to a high count.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      I say stuff to him like, “I bet girls throw themselves at you,” to which he says, “quit smoking crack.”

      Haha, he sounds funny. I bet it makes him feel fantastic when you say that though. What a great way to treat your husband!

      My husband just left the house, looking very elegant in his clothes, as per usual. As he kissed me goodbye, I said, “You’re a looker.” He said, “Better than a lurker?” I told him I already have more lurkers than I know what to do with.

  • Mike C

    One comment about numbers.related to a few comments already. You’ve got to quality adjust them. There is a world of difference between a guy who has been with say 10-15 8-9s and a a guy who has hit 40 by making a habit of pulling trailer park 4s on a regular basis.

    When I was bouncing I saw a few bottom feeders who probably racked up big numbers by really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

    FormerPlaya at comment 26, very interesting at answer #5 (reading on phone so I can’t quote text). This very topic has been a contentious argument on a variety of threads. I think your “arrangement” with your wife is far more common than some of the commenters and our host think. Still a small minority thing, but the fact is many women will in fact “share” a very high value guy with certain restrictions.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think your “arrangement” with your wife is far more common than some of the commenters and our host think. Still a small minority thing, but the fact is many women will in fact “share” a very high value guy with certain restrictions.

      I caught that too. Definitely a credible example. I did find one thing interesting – his wife made the offer, and he has never taken her up on it. So she isn’t actually sharing him. She obviously found it strategically advantageous to give permission, but we have no way of knowing how their relationship or marriage would change if he had sex with other people. Do we really believe it would stay the same if he started spending evenings out getting laid by other women? Given Former Playa’s relationship and sexual history, his wife may have made a concession to secure his commitment, feeling pretty confident he’d never act on it.

  • this is jen

    WarmWoman February 21, 2012 at 9:04 pm
    @Susan

    I don’t want to come off as judgemental. I might be able to overlook a high partner count, as long he committed to monogamy and I felt he was the man for me. Since I haven’t been in this situation, I don’t know exactly what I would do.

    To be honest, I think I can finally understand why men have an instinctive knee-jerk reaction when a woman is vividly discussing the details of her sex history.

    ………………………………

    I don’t understand this- can you elaborate?

  • WarmWoman

    This is jen,

    I’m not sure what part you don’t understand? The part where I think I understand how men feel or me overlooking a high partner count of 30?

  • this is jen

    FormerPlaya at comment 26, very interesting at answer #5 (reading on phone so I
    can’t quote text). This very topic has been a contentious argument on a variety
    of threads. I think your “arrangement” with your wife is far more common than
    some of the commenters and our host think. Still a small minority thing, but the
    fact is many women will in fact “share” a very high value guy with certain
    restrictions.

    …………………………..

    When I first met my husband he was involved with someone else, and my first instinct was to dismiss him. Obviously, I didn’t. Honestly, I am not sure what made me continue to see him. The thrill of the competition? I evenutally won him, after all.

  • this is jen

    65 WarmWoman February 21, 2012 at 9:39 pm
    This is jen,

    I’m not sure what part you don’t understand? The part where I think I understand how men feel or me overlooking a high partner count of 30?

    …………………….

    The understandinghow men feel. someone else agreed with you-sory can’t remember who- and I am wondering why I don’t “get” this too.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    A) chance at pregnancy
    B) bonding experience that will make it nearly impossible for me to leave
    C) possible chance of disease

    I will add D) Chances that I am a casual encounter and he is just lying/pretending for the sake of getting in my pants. And yes in my country many players are patient enough to deflower a virgin for as long as it takes just to discard her once they are done with her.A man that has his sexual needs fulfilled somewhere can afford playing you longer that a man with less options.
    And E) Chances of developing a taste for the nasty things out of life and unable to get sexually fulfilled ever. Again I had friends that became anal lovers after one of their women introduced them and after that any woman that doesn’t comply with that were quickly discarded and this are the same guys that later went for nastiest stuff like threesomes. Ozy disagrees with me and she thinks people are born with certain kinks but in my experience the more sexual experience the more resistant to love making and inclination to bring the butter and the electric appliances to be just to finally orgasm…maybe.

    Exes can be quite threatening.

    My husband last ex used to be a facebook celebrity and she usually tried to show how wonderful her life was and was a bit sniding out of me when he could or my friends even, of course taking the best pictures she could. But then I met her she is 15 years older than me, a whole foot shorter and I meet her in person during my second wedding here after that she is not longer in my facebook contacts. I can sleep at night better after that. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      .A man that has his sexual needs fulfilled somewhere can afford playing you longer that a man with less options.

      This happens on every college campus in America. A woman is suspicious of a guy who’s obviously attractive to women, so she “qualifies” him by looking for signs that he is genuinely into her. He is patient, takes it slow, spends a lot of time getting to know her, etc. They spend a lot of time holding hands, progressing to making out. Weeks pass, sometimes even months. They have sex, and he’s outta there. Pretends he doesn’t know her. He was getting laid by other girl(s) the whole time. This was actually the plot of Charlotte Simmons, but it’s common enough.

  • WarmWoman

    @Jackie

    I hope you feel better, and you’re leaving HUS? I keep saying I will stop, but I don’t lol.

    We do learn new things about ourselves, don’t we? I would have also said that one’s past doesn’t matter, but it looks like I would react to some cases.

    I would agree with Susan that low double-digits wouldn’t be a deal-breaker for me, especially if it was over a long period. Let’s say a 30 year old man had 10 partners over the span of 10 years.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “You’re a case in point – as I recall, you’ve said that you and Mrs. Cuff got together early on, and you clearly have an amazing sex life, so….I’d say you both chose well.”

    I’m a very bad example. I succeeded, only barely, despite my beta programming, not because of it.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    “To be honest, I think I can finally understand why men have an instinctive knee-jerk reaction when a woman is vividly discussing the details of her sex history.

    ………………………………

    I don’t understand this- can you elaborate? ”

    I’ll answer from the male perspective. It says one of a few things. None of them good from a relationship perspective, a couple might signal she’s desiring a one night stand.

    1. That said woman is still attached the the man who’s sex acts she’s describing

    2. She can’t form any attachments at all anymore to people she’s had sex with and is nonchalant about it because she doesn’t see a reason why she SHOULDN’T tell you

    3. She’s playing games to make you jealous

    4. For some reason she thinks this may be flirting with you.

    There could be more reasons, but those are the four that I’ve personally experienced. All will disqualify a woman for a relationship, at least for me. I did hook up once with someone that used the fourth, but it was definitely a ONS and we each knew that going in. It was pretty much her handing me what she wanted to do with me.

    I later found out that I was the first of three men for that same woman that week. Talk about issues.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Leap

      I later found out that I was the first of three men for that same woman that week.

      Better the first than the third :P

  • Days of Broken Arrows

    VD: said: ” No, that’s not it. It’s merely an important indicator. This should be obvious, since we’re discussing a socio-sexual hierarchy and therefore mere sexual history cannot be the sole determining factor. Perhaps you’re slumming.”

    No way was I slumming. I had dateda cheerleader in high school and felt I had to maintain that “standard.” Nowadays my big regret is passing up some really fantastic women because my “looks” standards were so high. For example, I blew off a pre-med undergrad who I just found sort of “eh,” but went for the empty-headed part-time model who asked me out one day, approps of nothing.

    Since we now have Facebook, guess who is the better looking of these two women now?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @DBA

      For example, I blew off a pre-med undergrad who I just found sort of “eh,” but went for the empty-headed part-time model who asked me out one day, approps of nothing. Since we now have Facebook, guess who is the better looking of these two women now?

      Ha, sweet revenge for the Dr.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    To clarify, by that I mean the actual description of details. Just casually mentioning a partner count or trying to avoid it signals other things entirely – again, what it signals depends on the situation

  • WarmWoman

    This is Jen,

    I’m not a man, but this is what I’ve heard and been told:

    Men don’t like to picture some sweaty man getting on top of their significant other, or having images of their significant other blowing a number of guys. When a woman says “I’ve slept with 50 guys”, the image that pops up might produce an “eww” reaction. Guys, feel free to disagree with me.

    That’s how I felt when I read about a man sleeping with 30 women. I got an immediate image of a man being in all of these..um…vaginas (sorry for the crudeness). It would be weird making love to him knowing that he’s been in and sucked by that many women.

    I remember my biology teacher in highschool saying “Once you sleep with someone, you’re kind of sleeping with everyone else they’ve done it with.”

  • this is jen

    I’ll answer from the male perspective. It says one of a few things. None of them good from a relationship perspective, a couple might signal she’s desiring a one night stand.

    ………………………….

    Hang on a sec, I thought we were talking about discussing our past within the context of now being married? Did I miss a few posts?

  • Jackie

    @WW (#69)
    Hey again, WW!
    Tomorrow is Ash Wednesday, which is the beginning of Lent. For the 40 days and 40 nights that Lent occurs, until Easter, we are encouraged to “give something up” or “take something on” in order to bring us closer to God. It’s supposed to be a journey we make together, as we think about the Easter story and what God means to us.

    For me (and Bellita, and maybe a couple others as well), I am giving up the internet except things related to business (email, etc) and my beloved soda pop.

    I am definitely going miss HUS and all the awesome commenters, youtube, Skype and other stuff! I will be back here after Easter, hopefully with a sense of renewal in body and spirit! :)

  • this is jen

    This is jen hit send too soon

    I meant as opposed to talking about with with someone you didn’t know very well, or were making a LTR judgement about.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    “This is jen hit send too soon

    I meant as opposed to talking about with with someone you didn’t know very well, or were making a LTR judgement about.”

    I figured you were talking about the reaction a man has to a woman describing her sexual past in details in general – not specifically in a marriage or LTR situation.

    While I haven’t had that happen, my gut instinct is that my reaction would be the same for each of those situations. I can see NO POSITIVE reasons for a woman to describe a detailed past sex life in a relationship. A simple ‘what if we try this’ would suffice if she wants some variety in the bedroom and she knows she likes it. Describing it as someone else did it would only be a turn off, make me angry, and have me question why I’m with this woman. Again, for those same reasons as above

  • Jesus Mahoney

    WarmWoman,

    50 guys is nuts. You can’t rack up 50 guys without having issues. And the same is probably true of men. I don’t think you can bed 50 lovers without having “problems” that would make you unfit for a relationship.

    Not that people can’t work past their issues, but it’s a red flag. And yea, the reaction is definitely “eww.” Though I don’t know if it’s something rooted in DNA or not, since some men and women don’t seem to have a problem with having relationships with people with high partner counts.

  • this is jen

    WarmWoman February 21, 2012 at 9:53 pm
    This is Jen,

    I’m not a man, but this is what I’ve heard and been told:

    Men don’t like to picture some sweaty man getting on top of their significant other, or having images of their significant other blowing a number of guys. When a woman says “I’ve slept with 50 guys”, the image that pops up might produce an “eww” reaction. Guys, feel free to disagree with me.

    ……………………..
    So, then would a guy not want to hear details if it were just a few? Men don’t want to picture it? Am I in the minority of wanting to picture what my husband had done before we married? (ut oh)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Is that Mr. HUS with the daughter in the picture accompanying the post?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      Is that Mr. HUS with the daughter in the picture accompanying the post?

      Haha, no. I found it online, and I liked it. I would put that photo at late 50s, early 60s. The dad had sort of a James Dean vibe about him that made me think he was a romantic hero to his daughter. I think that little girls often adore their cad fathers.

  • this is jen

    Thank you for clarifying, Leap.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Am I in the minority of wanting to picture what my husband had done before we married? (ut oh)

    That’s interesting. IDK. I can’t speak from a woman’s perspective… If my girlfriend started telling me what she’d done with other guys, I’d be annoyed and turned off. And if it was something slutty, then the damage might be permanent.

  • this is jen

    That’s interesting. IDK. I can’t speak from a woman’s perspective… If my girlfriend started telling me what she’d done with other guys, I’d be annoyed and turned off. And if it was something slutty, then the damage might be permanent.

    …………………………..
    THanks for weighing in, JM

  • Jackie

    @Bella Cullen/Ana (#68)

    Reason (D) is awful! I am so sorry to hear this. :( It reminds me of the story of Fantine from _Les Miserables_.

    Unfortunately, I have had someone similar try this with me. (And this person was even worse because when I told him NO, he held my arms down.) I said to him, There are TONS of women in the town who would be glad to sleep with you, NSA *no strings attached*. You have more than enough to pick from, PLEASE leave me alone.

    (It was a horrible housemate situation, in my case.)

    PS: Wasn’t sure if you saw this on the other thread, but congratulations on such happy news! Renesmee? ;)

  • Odds

    Sigh. Now I have to go out and bang ten more girls before I’m a top-tier catch? Don’t get me wrong, sex is awesome, but pulling a new girl is a pain in the ass, especially if I refuse to cheat, and I don’t even want a high partner count in the first place. Have a hard enough time reconciling my faith with premarital sex as it is.

    Don’t get me wrong, it makes sense. Most women who object and say they’d prefer a man with a similarly low count are lying to themselves and would readily rationalize a 20+ guy if he presented it the right way, like in the original post. I totally understand where they’re coming from. Normally I like attaching hard numbers to concepts, too.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Odds

      Sigh. Now I have to go out and bang ten more girls before I’m a top-tier catch?

      No! Neither Vox Day nor I ever said these men make the best partners. Vox is simply acknowledging that alpha chasers have better odds with men below a certain threshold for partner count. I can tell you that speaking as a mother, I would much prefer my daughter to select a man with five previous partners than 15+. I confess I would worry if he had only been with 1 or 2 women in LTRs – too much risk he still isn’t over one or both.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Bottomline: the man who makes you tingle is the man your womb needs.

    Oh boy so brains are meaningless now? Oh boy Feminism first institutionalized cattiness now legitimatize stupidity. Just when you think things wouldn’t get any worse.

    Am I in the minority of wanting to picture what my husband had done before we married? (ut oh)

    I think you are. I enjoyed hearing him talk but I do remember one day he told me a detail that grossed me out and I told him I had enough, is different I don’t even like to read explicit sex scenes in my romance let alone imagining my husband in it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Odds,

    A high value man can pull more women. The highest value man doesn’t need to. He does what he wants and doesn’t let anybody else define him. He can sleep with 100 women or just 1. He lives by his own rules.

    No worries.

  • Jackie

    @Odds

    Hi Odds,

    I wouldn’t sweat one survey on the internet– you sound like you have many awesome qualities, as is! :)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    What exactly is the point of discussing your previous relationships, sexual or otherwise, with your spouse?

    The details of what happened in the bedroom? There is no point. But the gist of where you’ve been over the course of your life… I’d say that’s relevant.

  • (r)Evoluzione

    Susan,

    I’ve been following this thread at Vox’s, and find it fascinating. I’m pretty stoked on my own situation, and without revealing too much about myself, let’s just say that the data in Vox’s thread and yours puts me in a very sweet spot. I was optimistic before, but this definitely tells me I’ve been making good choices and thus heading in a good direction.

    Re: women being repelled by manwhores: it’s genetic, biological adaptation–women can *smell* a man with an STI:
    http://www.naturalnews.com/034946_STD_infections_smell.html

    Not unsurprisingly, on the other side of the coin, men can tell a woman who’s ovulating by scent and by voice:
    (3rd abstract from the top.. other good ones in there too)
    http://www.bakadesuyo.com/how-much-of-our-sexuality-is-in-our-voices

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/men-can-detect-when-women-are-ovulating/article1440287/

    Cheers..

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      (r)Evoluzione

      I’m glad to hear things are looking great for you, and I’m especially gratified to hear it’s a result of good choices.

      That article about sniffing out STDs was pretty interesting. So far they’ve only studied gonorrhea, and unfortunately, deodorant masks the STI odor. We know that the Pill removes the scent of ovulation from women as well. Many people are choosing mates without the benefit of scent, which is clearly suboptimal.

  • Trish

    This is why I’ve always said (and tried to explain to PUAs) that when you choose to go the route of the cad, you are closing the doors to the higher quality women you may one day want to marry. In turn, this creates a positive feedback loop where cads/PUAs complain that the old-fashioned wifey-type, moral women don’t exist thus fueling their bitter feelings about women’s personhood (how many times have I heard a self-taught alpha claim that women don’t have souls).

  • WarmWoman

    @LeapofBeta-I also was referring to discussing partner counts in an LTR when both partners love and trust each other enough to pop the question. I think casually mentioning your partner count on a date or with friends would be sloppy manners.

    @Thisisjen-

    I don’t think you would be alone. I know some women that get turned on by the thought of their man doing another woman. Look at the people that date married men, and don’t seem to care that he’s sleeping with another woman at the same time.

  • this is jen

    Odds February 21, 2012 at 10:11 pm
    Don’t get me wrong, it makes sense. Most women who object and say they’d prefer a man with a similarly low count are lying to themselves and would readily rationalize a 20+ guy if he presented it the right way, like in the original post. I totally understand where they’re coming from. Normally I like attaching hard numbers to concepts, too.

    ……………………………….

    This is a good point. I agree with you here.
    FTR My first husband and I were both virgins. My second was quite the opposite-he had a pretty high number.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    “So, then would a guy not want to hear details if it were just a few? Men don’t want to picture it? Am I in the minority of wanting to picture what my husband had done before we married? (ut oh)”

    While the picturing it is part of it, another part is just what it signals for her in terms of her past bonding and present issues with creating new ones. Even if it was just a few men she slept with, if she’s describing it in detail I would guess she is either still bonded to the past guys or unable to bond with people she’s had sex with at all.

    I -DO- want to know what the past partner count was, because that says something as well. And the way she says it implies a lot too. If she tries to hide it and is ashamed of it I’d guess there’s bad choices in there if its middle to high or she’s ashamed of having a low one. If she’s proud of it and has middle to high count I’d watch out for her being a sex pos feminist. Really the target is a low count without feeling ashamed of it and not being hung up on any of them (IE: I don’t want to hear about how one of your ex’s did anything in the bedroom).

    Instead, tell me how much you LOVE what I’m doing. Or guide me in a subtle way of ‘lets try this out.’ The goal is that I should feel like I’m doing the leading. Hell, hopefully she’d feel like that too. But that’s how I’m wired as a man, I want to lead and will look for women that want that too.

    The only time I’d ever consider it appropriate to compare me to an ex is outside of the bedroom in a positive light. Don’t even compare me to an ex inside the bedroom in a positive way. The closest you should get is “Oh, I’ve never had sex that good before” type compliments. No names, no explicit mentioning of another person. Again, it leads me to think she’s bonded to someone else still more than anything if she was still thinking about him instead of me during sex.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ WW
    “I also was referring to discussing partner counts in an LTR when both partners love and trust each other enough to pop the question. I think casually mentioning your partner count on a date or with friends would be sloppy manners.”

    I run in a theatre scene. We have completely different social standards and its not unheard of or out of the question to discuss these things openly. Part of the red pill was the issue of me realizing all the women I associate with are horrible relationship material for this and other reasons (IE feminist ideals).

    @ This is Jen
    I think its a major difference in women and men. Pre-selection in women vs wanting to be special to a woman for a man.

  • this is jen

    93 Jesus Mahoney February 21, 2012 at 10:17 pm
    What exactly is the point of discussing your previous relationships, sexual or otherwise, with your spouse?

    The details of what happened in the bedroom? There is no point. But the gist of where you’ve been over the course of your life… I’d say that’s relevant.

    …………………………….

    hm, I didn’t mean, like, describing it pornographically- but just talking about how far things went with whom and why- that sort of thing. I didn’t mean bragging about it or anything-

  • Jesus Mahoney

    this is jen,

    Yea. This is a difficult one for me. I haven’t actually asked my current girlfriend. I get the feeling that her number isn’t all that high.

    Then, I didn’t suspect my ex-fiancee of having a high number either. I was a lot more naive then, I think. But when I found out, it ended the relationship.

    I have mixed feelings about wanting to know.

  • OffTheCuff

    Trisha, what are you smoking? Not a single woman has said that she requires a low number man. The strongest language was “I prefer it to be under 30″ and “I could look past it if he commits” which is pretty weak. Every one else thinks high counts are just fine. Your argument makes no sense.

  • WarmWoman

    @LeapofaBeta

    That’s interesting. Come to think of it, my friend in finance says there’s a group of people that are also open about that.

    Online forums are diferent, because we’re all anonymous. The stuff I say on here isn’t stuff you would be hearing me talk about in public, unless it’s with close and trusted friends.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    “Read it. There’s a hamsterization for her theory.”

    Fixed it for you. :)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Gina,

    Relevant how? Once you are married it’s just about you two and where you are going together. Not where either of you had been without each other in the past.

    Where you’ve been can tell someone a lot about where you’ll be going. I personally wouldn’t want to be married to a formerly promiscuous woman. Not that I think they’re bad people or anything.

  • WarmWoman

    “What exactly is the point of discussing your previous relationships, sexual or otherwise, with your spouse?”

    When I first joined HUS, I recall a couple of male posters in the Roosh’s advice saying that men had a right to know how many men their woman have been with. Male friends in my real life say “I don’t want to know”, because there’s no positive purpose. Even if a man says he doesn’t care, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an underlying wound to the ego.

    @Jackie-I can’t believe that man would pin you down like that. Glad you got out and safe. I was thinking earlier today at work about how some sick people get off on pressuring others.

  • Jackie

    @OTC (#103)
    Hi OTC,
    Did you read Charm’s post (#38)? Or my own? I realize in this world and SMP, that high numbers are common. But, for my own self, my hope is to be with someone whose values are close to my own. I would be thrilled to be with a man who was also waiting!

    I wouldn’t care if things weren’t perfect at first– so what? (It’s not like I would have anyone to compare him to.) We would have the rest of our lives together.

    Until then, I am working on being the best person I can be, and hoping that he is doing the same. It’s easy to get daunted or dismayed, but I often reflect on the words of my mother, “Whatever you focus on, you will get more of.” Keep focusing on the good character and see what happens :)

  • WarmWoman

    @Jesus Mahoney,

    I’m sorry if this comes off as too intrusive, but what if someone thought that your past summer flings were an indication of your future? I’m just curious.

  • Jackie

    @WW (#108)

    Thanks for your kind support, WarmWoman. As for that jerk– part of me wishes I hadn’t even mentioned it. I told my mentor and my sister after it happened, then got out of there ASAP.

    I try not to dwell on people like that or give them “rent free space in my brain.” There are always going to be jerks, you know? I *refuse* to let them steal my joy.
    :D

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Uh, that’s supposed to be all worked out BEFORE you get married. Anyone who is married and talking about past relationships is a loser.

    That’s mature. Though you’re right: it should be talked about ahead of time.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    WarmWoman,

    Well, if it were someone I cared about (like my girlfriend), I would be very hurt and saddened, of course.

  • Trish

    @OffTheCuff

    I am making this conclusion from this:

    “For every premarital sexual partner, a man’s likelihood of being extremely sexually satisfied in marriage falls 5.3%. This means that a man with a number of 10 before marriage is 53% less likely to be describe himself as extremely satisfied in marriage. By implication, all men with 20 previous partners will feel moderately sexually satisfied in marriage at best.”

    Also, you are incorrect that that was the strongest criticism against high partner counts in men here. Both Charm and WW have a similar belief as I do.

    Actually, I feel lucky reading these comments because my partner count is higher than my bf (of 4 years) and I still view him as very alpha. He also asks me explicit details of my past bfs just because he’s curious and I don’t see it bothering him at all. I honestly think it’s silly that commenters like Leap of Beta get so insecure at a woman talking about her past deeds. Guess that’s what happens when you’re… beta.

    I agree that it’s not the partner count that makes a man alpha, but his ability to attract women, which mine definitely does.

  • Rum

    My current best guess is that high number guys should be with high number girls and low number guys should be with low number girls. For long term relationships where commitment changes hands. But this whole notion depends on having a meaningful grasp of the nature of the others count. I mean, if she has sexed up a string of guys who were just like you but for their own reasons they would not commit you may have a good wife on your hands. If she has sexed up a long string of bar bounchers and tatooed, doomed, Byronic folk singers and you are just now finishing your JD and never got into the party scene I would say to disappear her with all predujice if she ever mutters the M word in your presence.
    If you think she has grown tired of exotic men and wants to commit her life foreverafter to fucking a nice, boring, bread-winner guy you are too stupid to live and deserve the hell that awaits you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      I mean, if she has sexed up a string of guys who were just like you but for their own reasons they would not commit you may have a good wife on your hands. If she has sexed up a long string of bar bounchers and tatooed, doomed, Byronic folk singers and you are just now finishing your JD and never got into the party scene I would say to disappear her with all predujice

      It can be a tricky business trying to figure that out in a timely manner, so it’s a risky strategy. A safer bet is to focus on people who really do appear to have a low-ish number. There’s an opportunity cost of missing out on the good wife or husband, but I’d say the C/B analysis would advise playing it safe.

  • Trish

    Also, hi Susan. My name is Trish and I’m a new commenter here, although I’ve been lurking your blog for months. I came over from Heartiste and I really like how you have a much more understanding, realistic and non-bitter perspective on the SMP.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Trish

      Thanks for introducing yourself, I’m glad to know you! I hope to see you around more!

  • JQ

    @ Susan

    http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/ETD/id/157

    worked for me with a little creative use of Google Scholar. I wonder if you had found an article version of what appears to be a Master’s Thesis.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JQ

      Thanks so much for digging out that link, I’ll update my post to include it.

  • WarmWoman

    Jackie

    “I try not to dwell on people like that or give them “rent free space in my brain.” There are always going to be jerks, you know? I *refuse* to let them steal my joy”

    Good words of wisdom. I will be at work, and random bad experiences pop up in my head out of nowhere.

    It seems like I might be one of the few female commenters that has mentioned similar issues that you posted with the jerk that pinned you down. In the SMP, it shouldn’t be ignored. The feeling of being sexually pressured and shutting down is very real. You would think that most women know how to fight back or tell a man to back off, but freezing isn’t uncommon either.

  • Wudang

    I’m unable to copy and paste from her blog but her theory is that the man who makes women tingle, NOT the “safe man”, is the man who women are meant to select for. The problem lies only in that women are unable to create “harmony” with them like they are with “safe men”. So then she holds workshops to teach women how to do that.

    Harmony for two to three years untill it is on to the next. Her vision is never ending rotation of partners were all women choose only the unsafe men and discard the safe ones. Which means 60% or more of men will never be chosen at all and women will have to share the unsafe men they are suposed to have harmony with with a lot of other women. Then as we know they will eventually not get chosen anymore after forty and end miserable. And how exactly are mentally healthy children suposed to be raised when everyone changes partners all the time and shares partners and whatnot. Especially when the men rotating arround are all the cads and not the dads since it is the dads that are the best fathers but they will be out of the picture in this womans model.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang

      Thanks for your sensible refutation of that stupid theory that women should choose dangerous men. I’ve deleted all the troll’s comments.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Gina,

    Most guys don’t want to marry women who have been overly promiscuous. Or at least most guys that I know….

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    And how exactly are mentally healthy children suposed to be raised when everyone changes partners all the time and shares partners and whatnot.

    Good thing that cats don’t need a lot of stability to do well in life ;).

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Mmm is it me or Gina sounds like Poly Desi?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Mmm is it me or Gina sounds like Poly Desi?

      My thoughts exactly. I can no longer trace her IP, so it’s all guessing, but I’m just deleting troll-like comments.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ana,

    Whoever she is, she’s a troll. Oh, and congrats on the 2nd draft of the novel. You’re growing 2 babies at once, it seems.

  • Wudang

    “Its important for both partners to get tested for STDs. Beyond that, I don’t see much use in knowing. Either you love someone or you don’t.”

    Well, since a woman with 200+ partners is statistically extremely unlikely to stay faithfull it can be handy to know. Aslo if the woman is about a 5 and you are about a 5 and she has tons and tons of 7s,8s,9s then maybe, just maybe, she ain`t all that into you even if she says she is.

  • OffTheCuff

    Ana, yup. My first thought. Too obvious.

  • Jackie

    @WW
    “I will be at work, and random bad experiences pop up in my head out of nowhere.”

    This might sound really stupid, but when those thoughts pop up, I will literally say, “Stop” out loud. And if I’m working on my [profession], I keep a notebook by me and write it down, telling myself that I can always think about it later.

    Lastly, these thoughts went WAY down for me when I started journalling and getting a lot of stuff out. Have you ever read _The Artists Way_ by Julia Cameron (I think that’s the author)? You might like it.

    As to the other stuff: I know I’m not physically strong enough to fight a guy and prevail. I try to be as safe as I can, have an escort whenever possible and stay in public places. I wish it was a safer world.
    Kindest regards–

  • Jesus Mahoney

    That’s fine. That means its a discussion to have in the initial stages of dating so you can end it early before anyone catches feelings. But not once you enter into a relationship.

    Not sure about that. Most women here say that topic is off the table until it gets serious.

  • WarmWoman

    Wasn’t polydesi supposedly feminist ex? Even though others found her annoying, I must admit I found her kind of amusing.

    “Most guys don’t want to marry women who have been overly promiscuous. Or at least most guys that I know….”

    The term promiscuous seems to vary in social circles. What are your friends’ definitions?

    I’ve met people that have felt pre-marital sex is promiscuous. Some say that any woman willing to get involved in NSA is promiscuous. Others would say my friend with 50+ guys is classic promiscuous.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Whoever she is, she’s a troll. Oh, and congrats on the 2nd draft of the novel. You’re growing 2 babies at once, it seems.

    Thanks! I’m actually very motivated to start querying before the baby is due. In my country we say that babies are born with the bread under their arms so hopefully it will bring me good luck to sell it. I totally recommend you nanowrimo if you ever have issues with writing, it had helped me a lot to actually write and stop self editing me so much that I take forever to finish a novel, the second draft of the first novel of the trilogy is 80,000 words and the first draft of the second novel is already 54,000 words I plan to start the third next month. Nanowrimo rules!

  • Jackie

    @Anacaona

    Speaking of cats… ;)

    Presented for your enjoyment, Catsterpiece Classics: Downton Tabby (also feat. “Hiss of the D’Urbervilles” and “Pawliver Twist”):

  • Jesus Mahoney

    WarmWoman,

    Most guys I know would fall somewhere in between saying, “any NSA sex is promiscuous,” to saying, “more than 5-6 NSA partners…” At least the ones I know of….

  • WarmWoman

    @Jackie

    No, it’s not stupid. Thought-stopping is a popular techinque. I’ve found journaling more cathartic than typing online. :)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Presented for your enjoyment, Catsterpiece Classics: Downton Tabby (also feat. “Hiss of the D’Urbervilles” and “Pawliver Twist”):

    Heh so funny, How in the world they dressed that cat! Is a pretty red dress too. :)

  • OffTheCuff

    Trish, you just changed what you said. First it was “closing the door” on marriage, then you said it was less chance of being of being very satisfied. Which is it? I agree with the latter, but not the former. It didn’t stop FormerPlaya, did it?

    A strong dislike of men with high counts would take the form as this: “I have never slept with a man unless he had a low count, and never will”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A strong dislike of men with high counts would take the form as this: “I have never slept with a man unless he had a low count, and never will”.

      That’s two extremes. The whole point Vox is making is that a moderate count is not problematic in terms of securing commitment, especially if the guy is religious, according to his data. He defines moderate as 15-30. I think 15 seems moderate, some would even say low by the late 30s. 30 strikes me as a bit high, myself. YMMV.

  • WarmWoman

    I’m surprised none of the men on HUS chimed in about oral sex not counting…….There are people that engage in NSA sex that only includes oral, and then they reserve P in V for LTR’s.

  • Jackie

    @Anacaona C (#138)

    Haha! I know, right? ;)

    As to dressing cats… well, um… Let’s just say, there is a huge Halloween Costume market out there for pets and with enough kitty treats and the right camera angles, *anything* is possible.

    Don’t ask me how I know this. ;)

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “”

    Not looking to rock the boat or anything, but isn’t 15+ partners kind of pushing the envelope for women seeking spouses for a lifelong commitment? I hate to drop boring statistics: 2008 CDC/Census says 28% of men aged 25+ reported 15+ lifetime partners. This includes all forms of sex (with women). About 7 in 10 guys report less than 15, and half of guys report 6 or less.

    Obviously, you can’t judge individuals (solely) by their stats, but is this really the best pool of potential mates to be looking in? Within the 15+ crowd, 47% have been divorced once. These guys either racked up their numbers before tying the knot, or after the divorce papers were signed. Or while they were married, who knows?

    You know what they say about self-selected surveys… I’d love to see this done with a large, random sampling of married folks. But you’re right when it comes to “the number”. You’ve maintained a successful marriage despite what some statistics might predict. I have too, on the left side of the curve. I’ve met some guys who couldn’t believe I was able to get married at all given my low number, let alone to a tall, leggy blonde : )

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      One thing that it’s important to keep in mind is the vast shift by age group. I don’t think that we can assume the same behaviors, and consequently same numbers, for men currently nearing 40 and those who are 20 and in college. That’s a whole generation, and hookup culture has developed during that period. I personally know beta guys who are at 15 by their mid-20s. There is just that much casual sex available. In general, they tend to be more relationship oriented, so they may have had more sex with fewer partners. If you recall (or perhaps you weren’t here yet), when I wrote about the 80/20 rule, I focused on incidence of sexual encounters rather than the number of partners.

      Of course, I realize that many guys (43%) are virgins in college. There’s a wide range.

      Agreed about self-selected surveys. Interesting to discuss, but it’s not information to take to the bank.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Don’t ask me how I know this.

    Why I’m getting the feeling that I need your catvice? My cat barely tolerates her collar and everytime she gets accidentally free of it it takes me hours to put it back. So pretty dresses are out of the question for her.

  • Jennifer

    Well, nice to know there’s some statistical possibility that run-arounds can be salvaged, lol. But this is prettyy stupid: “Self-described religious Alphas with counts of 15-30 were pro-marriage. I agree with Vox that these men represent real catches – they’ve achieved significant success with women, but still hold to traditional values”. Christian men don’t sleep with 15-30 women before marriage. What a crock, but not surprising from someone professing both Vox’s beliefs about women and his claims of Christianity.

  • Jennifer

    Megaman

    rock on :)

  • OffTheCuff

    Jen: “Christian men don’t sleep with 15-30 women before marriage.”

    Fake Christians do – for once I agree with you.

  • Jackie

    @Ana (#144)

    Is she really squirrelly? Maybe it depends on temperment: Both mine are little slothy cuddlebugs: They will let 4-year-olds hold them. :)

    (Although the big one was 20lbs when I adopted him, so your average 4y.o. probably couldn’t pick him off the ground!) I give them extensive cuddles and praise, then slip their heads into the costume, as quick as I can. Once it’s captured on video, their work is complete and I set them free. Their laziness works well in their behalf– they do put up with a lot before the yowling starts :)

  • JQ

    @ Susan:

    I checked what I was looking to check in the reference. Incidentally your contact page isn’t working with my browser (FireFox on Linux) or I would send along what I found. Perhaps, as you know where to find me, you might drop me a line if it isn’t too much trouble?

  • Jackie

    @Jennifer (#145)

    “What a crock, but not surprising from someone professing both Vox’s beliefs about women and his claims of Christianity.”

    What are his claims of Christianity? I would be very interested in this, if someone is a professing Christian, they are usually held to an extremely high standard.

    Thanks in advance, Jennifer :)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Is she really squirrelly? Maybe it depends on temperment: Both mine are little slothy cuddlebugs: They will let 4-year-olds hold them.

    She is Dominican and most Dominican cats are at least 1/4 feral, in fact she needed three vets to give her, her medicines here because we couldn’t and hubby has had cats all his life. We call him the little blender in the shape of a cat and the vets are terrified of her, she clawed her first one, and then here she fought like a champ the first time we took her in to fix her. And she is not even 8 pounds….so yeah not little dresses anytime soon I guess :(

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Ms. Jennifer

    I’m an agnostic, but my sex life back when I was single probably made people think I was super-religious : )

    I’ve heard anecdotally, that some former players become born-again Christians. They go cold turkey and insist on waiting until marriage to have any sex whatsoever. A quirk of conscience perhaps? Talk about swinging from one extreme to the other. I think Aristotle talked about a “golden mean”, that desirable middle path in life. Applying that to this topic, my guess is the magic number for most people is probably in the mid-single digits, with a healthy dose of romance thrown in.

  • Jackie

    @MegaMan

    “I’ve heard anecdotally, that some former players become born-again Christians. They go cold turkey and insist on waiting until marriage to have any sex whatsoever. A quirk of conscience perhaps?”

    I had a friend who was like this. She had been promiscuous (both men and women), overdone it on drugs and alcohol and there were other issues as well. :(

    I met her once she was “born again” and remember being impressed at her devotion. But, as time went on, I found it difficult because it was like there was only one right answer. (Her reading of the Bible was quite literal, I believe it is meant as allegory.) If I did something that was wrong, I felt harshly harshly judged by her. Also with the anti-Popery, as she belonged to a “Bible-based church” that was rather anti-Catholic.

    I’ve noticed these kind of people have very “black or white” thinking (all or nothing stuff). I also wonder if there aren’t impulse or addiction issues at bay as well. (My friend had a family history of alcoholism.)

    Personally, I like balance. :)

  • modernguy

    The determining factor in whether a guy’s partner count is too high is the size of the ego on the woman who wants to land him. All women want to be a man’s “last romance” to validate and raise them above all the women that went before. What a petty little thing a woman’s self worth is.

  • Trish

    @ modernguy

    Or maybe we just don’t like sluts for the same reason men don’t, which can be attributed to “ego” as well. Why is that so hard for some people to comprehend?

  • modernguy

    “…Male friends in my real life say “I don’t want to know”, because there’s no positive purpose. Even if a man says he doesn’t care, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an underlying wound to the ego. ”

    Its important for both partners to get tested for STDs. Beyond that, I don’t see much use in knowing. Either you love someone or you don’t.”

    If a man doesn’t want to know, it’s because he’s afraid of finding out that you were a slut, and of what that implies about you. It’s not about ego because from the outset it’s a given that the average women can get sex much, much easier than the average man can. A woman with more sexual experience than her partner did not “beat” him at the game, she was simply giving it up easily. Furthermore, love doesn’t exist in some 5th dimensional plane unaffected by revelations about your past. Finding out your wife blew the football team is going to make you reevaluate your feelings for her.

    Trish- what do you mean?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Jackie
    Between Jack Chick on the right and Richard Dawkins on the left, I don’t envy Catholic folks these days. Seems like bullets are flying from every direction. However, the Church does have a lot of its own housecleaning to do IMO.

  • GudEnuf

    Hearing women express their distaste in promiscuous men feels really good. When I went to Catholic school I was taught that male sexuality is just as precious as female sexuality and that a man should make sure he only gives it to the right woman. But when I got into college I was pounded by the message that only female sexuality is precious and that male sexuality is just worthless. Reading evo-psych sunk the point in further.

    But when I started to talk to actual women about this, it seems they are very possessive of male sexuality. Most women I’ve talked to want their man’s sperm all to herself. Evo-psych research seems to be catch up here too, and it seems that sexual evolution is more complicated than we thought it was. Male sexuality may be precious after all.

  • VD

    Christian men don’t sleep with 15-30 women before marriage. What a crock, but not surprising from someone professing both Vox’s beliefs about women and his claims of Christianity.

    It would appear the reference to Augustine went over your head. It is not exactly unheard of for people to convert to Christianity, I’m told history records a few incidents of it. My previous non-Christianity is a matter of public record, as those who are familiar with my old band will know. And in the USA, both men and women brought up in the faith often leave it for what amounts to an unofficial extended Rumspringa when first exposed to the freedom and secular pressure of college life, then return to it in their twenties and thirties after realizing that hedonism not only isn’t all that it is cracked up to be, but often comes with a price.

    One can, of course, dismiss this as a cunningly hypocritical long term strategic approach to life. However, since the average individual has trouble anticipating tomorrow, let alone next week, I suggest simple human weakness is the more reasonable explanation.

  • this is jen

    man doesn’t want to know, it’s because he’s afraid of finding out that you were a slut, and of what that implies about you. It’s not about ego because from the outset it’s a given that the average women can get sex much, much easier than the average man can. A woman with more sexual experience than her partner did not “beat” him at the game, she was simply giving it up easily.
    …………………………….
    My husband knew the number was low before the conversation even started. Maybe thats why it wasn’t any kind of negative conversation.I did not have any kind of wild life before I married- but he sure did. And I love trying to get into the heads of the women who joined him.

  • FormerPlaya

    I find the dividing line between 80 and 100 to be … highly significant. :)

    But of course I’d say that, wouldn’t I?

    It’s noteworthy to me since – once again – context matters. My friends from my Playa days included a couple guys who were well into the hundreds, men who were truly, indeed pathologically, devoted to the pursuit of the cat. Compared to them I felt – well, not chaste, but you get the idea. Interestingly, one of them settled down nicely, like me, the full cad to dad transition, a status which has survived some marital turmoil even, while the second guy simply could not grow up and, last we heard, had moved operations to Thailand or somesuch. It happens.

    I take your point, Susan, but when you have seen guys who basically rise in the morning to find the next piece of a**, you know what that looks like: not pretty. Never felt like *that* guy.

    The reality is that, if you’re a natural Alpha with the attributes, getting laid is ridiculously easy at pretty much any age (I have a mentor who’s is still cleaning up, in a non-pathological way, at age 70). The sexual revolution has hurt a lot of people, but for Alphas it has opened the door to all the p*ssy any man can handle.

    Not sure I approve of that, at this point, but who asked me?

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Trish
    “I honestly think it’s silly that commenters like Leap of Beta get so insecure at a woman talking about her past deeds. Guess that’s what happens when you’re… beta.”

    Less insecure. More that her telling me explicitly about it is a sign she’s a woman I don’t want to be with.

    Go back and ready my actual posts. There’s a very real difference in male and female mating strategies. Females, in general, want someone that is able to pull multiple women. Even if not actual sex, a woman wants to be a choice where the man had several others and chose HER over others.

    Men couldn’t give a shit about that. We don’t care if you had two, five, ten other men lining up to date you. We only care about you dating us and caring about us.

    If you’re describing other boyfriends and your sex life, you’re projecting what you want onto men. We really don’t care what the hell you did with those five other men before you met us. At 8 count of sex (10 using Vox’s standards) I’m already above average for a partner count in life, and I’m damn proud/happy with that.

    But a girl that brags about her sex life and describes it in detail is, at best, a masculine sex positive feminist. You subscribe it to being insecure about being with her, I subscribe it to really just NOT WANTING TO BE WITH HER. I’m very secure with my own sexuality, to the point where I don’t have to accept washed up, damaged goods. Let me go back and look at those reasons I would avoid someone that gives me a play by play of her sex life again, because you obviously didn’t get the point.

    1. Someone that is still bonded to an old alpha in her sexual past.

    Someone that is still longing for her old bond with an alpha boyfriend is not worth more than sex. Sorry, but I’m not going to commit my money, time, and care for someone that demonstrates that she’s still hung up on your old boyfriend and how he treated you in bed. Deal with your issues before you come to me, because I really don’t want to take the chance that I won’t be able to ‘fix you’, make you complete, or some other inane bullshit that society tells you I should be able to do. Wake up and deal with your own issues, don’t wait for a knight in shining armor to vanquish your old boyfriends Scott Pilgrim style, because only in movies do they care. The rest of us either don’t care and will write you off or they’ll be simpering betas that will forgive your past without question and you’ll hate them for it

    2. Someone that can’t make bonds.

    Really? I would have guessed I didn’t need to explain this, but lets have at it. What is the point of dating someone that literally does not bond with the people she’s had sex with and feels NO EMOTION when she tells you what she did with her ex’s? This is a HUGE red flag for her being a slut. Don’t expect that you can wave your alpha penis around and suddenly make her fall in love with it. Someone that doesn’t bond with people she’s had sex with certainly isn’t going to see reasons to stick around in a year or two after you’ve committed time, money, and energy to her. She won’t care that you’re the father of her kids. She’ll only continually wonder what you’re doing FOR HER in what you’re providing and sacrificing. She won’t care what you’re actually sacrificing, only that it serves her needs.

    3. She’s trying to make me jealous.

    Why would you want to be with someone that plays ANY sort of mind game to make you jealous? I simply refuse to be with a woman in a long term relationship that tries to use mind games to mess with my head and make me jealous. That she does so with sex of all things just signals exactly how damaged goods she is. Of all the reasons, this would get me to run the fastest. It signals that she has no boundaries for wanting to gain control over me and will resort to sex stories for mind games. I wouldn’t even engage in a ONS with this kind of woman because I literally don’t know the lengths she’ll go to to make a story out of it and try to gain control over me with some sort of crazy story and slandering me.

    4. Flirting with me via sex stories.

    Easy. Anyone that has to resort to sex stories to flirt is a slut. She either doesn’t know what I care about that makes her important as a woman or she doesn’t care. A woman can gain much more respect by being more subtle. Telling me stories of how you enjoy being dominated in the bedroom in a flirting manner will only get me to use those details to make you happy for a night. It signals that you have no idea that I could be made happy if you have the ability to nurture others. That you don’t care if you could cook. That you have nothing to provide as a woman besides sex. Nothing coy, demure, cute, sexy. Just pure, unadulterated (for now) lust.

    These reasons hold up for any point in a relationship. Early on they’ll kill it right off. If I’ve already committed resources to you, at best it will cause me to look long and hard at our relationship to determine if you’re worth spending more of those on.

    Like I said, there’s no positive reason to resort to telling a man of your detailed sex life. It shows that you don’t get what we want in a LTR and signals that, for one reason or another, you’re just good for a single night. Get ready for a man to either play you as pump and dump, ditch you completely, or start with holding resources because you just decided to show that you’ve given it up for less than he’s paying.

    You’ll get more mileage out of a beta who is just happy to be with you and get sex, or someone that you’ve convinced you’re a reformed slut that doesn’t do that any more. But, while I’ve met reformed sluts that I truly believed, I haven’t met any that would be so PROUD for some reason or another to give me a play by play of their sex life. I don’t think they would be able to unless a man shamed them into it and demanded such – which is when you run into those truly insecure about it.

    But anyone with a choice in the matter won’t put up with slut stories. Not because we’re insecure, but because we have a choice and choose the goods that aren’t damaged.

  • VD

    A man that has his sexual needs fulfilled somewhere can afford playing you longer that a man with less options.

    Bingo. Years in some cases. It doesn’t mean he’s going to drop you as soon as the box is checked, but the mere passage of time means nothing. Just as men are well-advised to press early for sex, women should press early for commitment. If that drives the guy off, good. It was never on offer anyhow.

    I found it charming that a very pretty blonde was willing to take the risk of calling me up the day after our first date and ask if I was free that afternoon. No games, no hesitation, she was all in from the start. And we’re still married.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Susan
    “@Leap

    I later found out that I was the first of three men for that same woman that week.

    Better the first than the third ”

    Tell me about it! Glad I was the first to add to that petri dish instead of stirring the culture she had developed =p

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “I confess I would worry if he had only been with 1 or 2 women in LTRs – too much risk he still isn’t over one or both.”

    Wow, so a low-count man needs to dump his woman, so he can get up to 5, so he’s lower risk. Got it. Have you told your sons this?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OffTheCuff, @Ted

      Wow, so a low-count man needs to dump his woman, so he can get up to 5, so he’s lower risk. Got it. Have you told your sons this?

      Damn, I expressed myself poorly. My son is in that low count category. If he broke up with his gf, and moved on, I would not be surprised if he had trouble forgetting her (especially if she dumped him). I have seen women date men who have had 2 LTRs – all of high school, then all of college. And there was definitely some unresolved stuff there. For the record, I would not feel that way about a guy who had two casual flings. It’s the emotional investment. I’ve heard men say the same thing about women who “had five minutes of alpha.” There the concern is sexual, I guess, but I’m talking about the female version of that same thing.

      This is one of the downsides of delaying marriage so long that people have numerous serious relationships before settling down.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “Sue: “I confess I would worry if he had only been with 1 or 2 women in LTRs – too much risk he still isn’t over one or both.”

    Wow, so a low-count man needs to dump his woman, so he can get up to 5, so he’s lower risk. Got it. Have you told your sons this?”

    Susan – I’m really surprised by your comment above. Do you expect your son to “get a few notches in” before he finds and commits to a woman? If he does that is fine, but you seem to be saying that he better or he will be a poor choice for some women.

    Honestly, I don’t think you meant it, but you pretty much said that a guy with a low partner count is a bad choice. If you did mean it, I’d love to hear why.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    OH, nevermind. I see now, low count guys are too clingy and probably still attached to their previous partner. I get it. *rolls eyes*

    Men – you are damned if you do, and damned if you don’t. At least men and women appear to be equal in this respect. :(

  • Rico

    “I’m surprised none of the men on HUS chimed in about oral sex not counting…….There are people that engage in NSA sex that only includes oral, and then they reserve P in V for LTR’s.”

    As am I – if a penis has been in your mouth, it adds to your tally. Full stop.

  • deti

    I’m curious: At HUS, why doesn’t oral sex count as sex?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti, @Jesus, @Rico

      I’m curious: At HUS, why doesn’t oral sex count as sex?

      I didn’t set the definition, I just adopted it from the SMP. I can tell you with absolute certainty that when women talk about their number, they’re talking about P in V. Period. I understand the arguments against that rather conservative definition (channeling Bill Clinton). I will say, though, that when guys ask about the number, they know that’s the stat they’re getting. P in V is the norm for discussing number in this SMP among young people.

      Re absurd hamstering, you wouldn’t believe some of the excuses I have heard about sex that doesn’t count, even when P went into V. Mike C will recall this.

      It was my birthday.
      He came outside my body.
      He lost his erection in the middle.
      I didn’t come.
      I was on my period.
      The guy turned out to be gay.
      etc.

      And of course, as I mentioned earlier, some women just revisit old lovers. One of the women in my focus groups had an extremely high number (40+) and she was worried about it. So when she left school for the summer, she resolved to have sex with all her old high school partners in order to get her needs met while keeping her number the same.

      In short, if a man wants to know the answer to this question, he will need to ask for specific details.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yea,personally I think NOT counting oral is a bit of absurd hamstering.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’d think less of a woman just blowing a guy casually than having sex with him casually.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    *Less of the girl, not less of the act.

  • BroHamlet

    Jesus & deti:

    Yeah I chuckled when it was stated that at HUS, bj’s don’t count. I don’t really draw the distinction between oral and everything else, but if you think about it, oral = no condom, casual sex = condom.

    The second one ain’t so bad.

    Susan,

    how do you justify not counting oral? To some of us that’s laughable, right up there with “born again” virgins. Most guys (at least the ones I know) know the rationalizations girls go through the get “freebies”. I’m just surprised someone as grounded as you buys into that.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The other thing about casual bj’s is that they’re all about the guy’s pleasure… At least if it were P in V, you could say, okay, she was looking to get herself off. With a bj, all she was doing was looking to get some guy off some guy that doesn’t want a relationship with her.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      With a bj, all she was doing was looking to get some guy off some guy that doesn’t want a relationship with her.

      FWIW, none of the two dozen women in my groups give BJs and leave it at that. The slutty ones have a night of sex, with everything on the table, and the more chaste ones would never give a BJ to some random dude in a million years.

      I think the “BJ only” move is probably most common at frat parties, that sort of scene. Like a quick trip to the second floor and back to get another beer. Need I say that women who do this are kind of sad and a mess?

  • deti

    Maybe there’s a good reason for not counting oral. I’ve tried to think of one, but I can’t.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Maybe there’s a good reason for not counting oral. I’ve tried to think of one, but I can’t.

      Seriously, it would not surprise me if Bill Clinton set the standard here. I know he introduced the concept of oral sex to millions of children. My kids heard it on the 5 o’clock news update on the oldies station in the car before I knew what was being reported. They were 10 and 8, and we spent the rest of that car ride talking about birds, bees and blowjobs. (Later I heard my son tell my daughter that he hoped my husband and I had only done sex two times – once for each of them.)

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Dunno. I haven’t defined my count as including Oral before now, but that might be more due to the fact that I think society rarely counts it – probably in an attempt for women to keep their numbers down.

    It probably does make a difference for your pair bonding though. I doubt most people think of it in that way – we just know instinctively it makes a difference. Hence women trying to hide it behind the hamster.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Maybe there’s a good reason for not counting oral.

    There is. You’ve seen Clerks?

  • Butterfly Flower

    According to a common Catholic school urban legend: blow jobs don’t count if a guy doesn’t finish in your mouth. If you swallow, then it’s a number. I always thought this rule was an allusion to Onan [i.e. God gets angry when seed is wasted].

    So, the blow jobs women often dismiss technically aren’t complete blow jobs [although that doesn't make the act any less sleazy...]

  • Tom

    Oral sex is sex…P inside anything is sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Oral sex is sex…P inside anything is sex.

      Should a woman add to her number if a guy goes down on her and she doesn’t reciprocate? Does a guy count that as a “conquest?”

  • BroHamlet

    Jesus, deti, Leap:

    Y’all see the irony in writing an article about women avoiding men with a certain number of partners, and then saying that oral doesn’t count, right? This is hilarious to me. Wouldn’t surprise me to see twentysomething girls doing this, but Susan should know better. Hopefully her explanation doesn’t make us LOL like I did when I first read the “BJ clause”.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    According to a common Catholic school urban legend: blow jobs don’t count if a guy doesn’t finish in your mouth. If you swallow, then it’s a number. I always thought this rule was an allusion to Onan [i.e. God gets angry when seed is wasted].

    So, the blow jobs women often dismiss technically aren’t complete blow jobs [although that doesn't make the act any less sleazy...]

    A hamster schooled in the catechism….

  • Tom

    @ Trish
    Or maybe we just don’t like sluts for the same reason men don’t, which can be attributed to “ego” as well. Why is that so hard for some people to comprehend?

    ____________________
    It isnt hard to understand, unless one ego gets in the way….lol

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “That’s a whole generation, and hookup culture has developed during that period.”

    I’m with you on the generational thing. I looked at the stats for the 25+ age group. For guys 20-24 (college years), they self-reported even lower partner counts. Perhaps the current generation is getting less promiscuous? You certainly don’t need 15 partners to be considered sexually experienced.

    The 80/20 phenomenon kind of makes sense. It might be more like 75/25 given some of the CDC/Census info. Not sure why women would look in the high partner count niche for husbands, though, to the exclusion of the rest. Talk about rolling the dice.

    You mentioned being concerned (for you daughter) about a guy with only 1 or 2 previous partners. What about zero? If guys with low counts make bad relationship prospects IYO, I’d love to see some data on it. If anything, men and women with low counts “appear” to have the lowest divorce rates too. Could be religious self-selection, I don’t know.

    This kind of highlights a contradiction of the SDS I’ve never gotten a straight answer on: if guys are supposed to have some minimum level of experience going into a relationship, and women not so much, where do the guys get the experience from? Obviously not from “low class” women, however that’s defined. Math problem, anyone?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      Perhaps the current generation is getting less promiscuous?

      From your lips to God’s ears. I think they might be, actually. But maybe not in a good way. The number of male virgins is going up, but that isn’t good unless the number of female virgins is also going up.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      The 80/20 phenomenon kind of makes sense. It might be more like 75/25 given some of the CDC/Census info.

      Interestingly, Vox’s data matched that second ratio pretty closely.

      What about zero? If guys with low counts make bad relationship prospects IYO, I’d love to see some data on it.

      Zero would be awesome. My worry is that he’s still thinking of “the one that got away.”

      where do the guys get the experience from? Obviously not from “low class” women, however that’s defined. Math problem, anyone?

      Why not from sluts? As you know, I believe that ultimately low count people get with low count people and high count people get with high count people. That erases a lot of the insecurity and resentment. The unhappiest males are the low-count ones who wind up with high-count women, as we have seen.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I think the reason why girls don’t count blow jobs is because there’s no risk of getting pregnant from the act. The girl also doesn’t have to get naked at all, so it seems like she’s giving less of herself. Likewise with handjobs. The risk of pregnancy is actually there with anal, though less.

    Personally if I get to making out with a guy it’s because things have gotten quite serious already. The number of guys I’ve gone out with and kissed is single digit, likewise with my husband and number of girls. I don’t think guys actually care about kissing count, although he does appreciate that physically I just haven’t touched that many guys.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com/2012/02/she-feels-so-damn-good.html Ted D

    I guess we men better start being specific when we discuss prior sexual history with our women. Seems like they are using “new math” to fudge their numbers.

    If there was so much as a hand job, I expect it to be in the tally. Good thing for me I’ve always been clear on what I consider sexual activity I guess.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      If there was so much as a hand job, I expect it to be in the tally.

      Heh, good luck with that. I’m glad we’ve disabused you of that notion.

      And we haven’t even considered the penises that are lost forever in some blackout part of a woman’s brain.

  • Butterfly Flower

    A hamster schooled in the catechism….

    Oh, no – I don’t think that. Back in High School, I was too busy being a nature worshiping pagan to give incomplete blow jobs to jocks in the parking lot.

  • Tom

    @ Megaman
    This kind of highlights a contradiction of the SDS I’ve never gotten a straight answer on: if guys are supposed to have some minimum level of experience going into a relationship, and women not so much, where do the guys get the experience from? Obviously not from “low class” women, however that’s defined. Math problem, anyone
    _____________________
    Sorta like a man tries his ass off to get a woman to have sex, and when she does he calls her a slut and throws her on the slut pile. (as if he is any different?)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    BF,

    I didn’t think you were one of those… sorry if that’s how it seemed.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com/2012/02/she-feels-so-damn-good.html Ted D

    Hope – do women really think men are concerned about how many times they might have gotten pregnant?

    I think it’s more like they want to know how much their prospective mate gave it away, and to what kind of man. I can tell you that a girl with a low P in V count that has given several hundred blowjobs is still promiscuous. And, as Jesus pointed out, probably giving head to either get validation or money/dinners/gifts from those men.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Obviously not from “low class” women, however that’s defined.

    Unfortunately, I think that’s traditionally what the thought has been…. Get the experience with the “low class” women.

  • deti

    I’m with Ted on this.

    If he’s taken out his di*k, and she and he have done anything referred to in the vernacular with any term ending in ” -job”, I say it counts.

  • Tom

    I think a lot of guys think blowjobs count. A lot of guys see the blowjob as the most intinate thing couples can do.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Men with a low partner count and no LTR experience are a much better bet for marriage than men with lots of past partners, and I think same is true of men with a low partner count and few number of LTRs.

    At least that is if a girl is truly looking for a dad type. Some girls claim to be looking for dads but really want to convert a cad to dad. I think that’s a risky gamble, but hey casinos in Vegas don’t lack for money.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    I think a lot of guys think blowjobs count. A lot of guys see the blowjob as the most intinate thing couples can do.

    +1. I think, in a way, blow jobs counts more.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      +1. I think, in a way, blow jobs counts more.

      In my generation, they counted waaaayyy more. It was something we didn’t even consider until we’d been having sex for a while. And the number of guys willing to give oral was small. Their numbers were written on the Women’s Room stalls :)

  • Tom

    @ Hope..

    Not sure a guy who sleeps around is a cad. I was thinking a cad was a guy who sleeps around and often plays women. The kind of guy who lies and says anything to get laid, including ,”Lets see where this goes” etc. Those guys are guys of questionable character to begin with, because of the manipulation involved. Guys who sleep around with women and both know it is just about sex are not being dishonest. I wouldnt lable them cads.

  • Tom

    JM
    +1. I think, in a way, blow jobs counts more.

    ___
    Me too

  • Butterfly Flower

    I didn’t think you were one of those… sorry if that’s how it seemed.

    No, it’s okay; I wouldn’t blame you for assuming the worst. Being a virgin definitely made me an outlier among my Catholic school classmates [oh, the irony of that statement].

    Men with a low partner count and no LTR experience are a much better bet for marriage than men with lots of past partners, and I think same is true of men with a low partner count and few number of LTRs

    My fiance is a virgin [unless his high-tech robotic sex-doll counts]. I never understood the revulsion of male virgins. I mean, it means that you’ll be their first and only love. That’s so romantic and special.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My fiance is a virgin [unless his high-tech robotic sex-doll counts].

      Are you saying that your fiance has sex with a $6,000 Real Doll?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Ted D, I think men do not really understand how a woman’s “private parts” are important to her. I have heard of women who would rather suck a guy off than let him near her pelvic area. What is probably the case is that the act seems less intimate to her, but more intimate to the guy.

    Likewise a woman would see a guy licking her as more intimate than even having sex with her. Maybe the same concept, but applied differently.

  • Tom

    Hope and here I thought is was all about birth control
    lol

  • AnonJohn

    I think the distinction between the why’s and how’s of a high number are appropriate. RooshV is clearly pathological in his pursuit of a high notch count and clearly bad LTR material.

    Myself on the other hand, I have a number of 60+ at age 36 and I was in a LTR for ten years. But I did not pursue women in a pathological way. There just always seemed to be sex available to me from quality females.

    I am now in the midst of a 18 month LTR (exclusive) that looks to be headed in to serious long term mode, perhaps marriage and kids.

    And I happy about it. When she is away, I have chances to score more notches but I don’t because I couldn’t stand to hurt her like that.

    So notch count isn’t everything, not by a long shot.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @AnonJohn

      Thanks for sharing your experience. I do think we need to consider guys in their mid to late 30s through a different lens than guys 10 years younger. In your case, the number would have obvs been a lot higher if you hadn’t had that long LTR. Which proves your point – a number by itself can be deceptive. I’m glad you are not cheating on your SO, though.

  • Tom

    In”older” women I think the attitude is different. Most women I know, say +40, would not give a BJ unless they REALLY like the guy and was in a relationship with him.
    Hell a lot of my friends say BJ`s stopped right after she ate the wedding cake.. I`m thinking we will have wedding pie instead…lol

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com/2012/02/she-feels-so-damn-good.html Ted D

    Hope – then the issue is that women believe men are concerned about their “private parts”. I want to know history because of what it indicates about her character and personality, not because I’m worried her vagina is worn out. The actual physical act of sex leaves very little in terms of lasting effect in a physical way. But every single encounter with another human being changes your essence. The type of encounter dictates the type of change, and sex being such a primal and animalistic act IMO can and often does have a substantial impact. Now multiply that by number of partners, and what type of men they were, and you can get a pretty good idea of where a woman is spiritually, at least in terms of sexual spirit, for lack of a better term.

  • Tom

    @ anon-John
    And I happy about it. When she is away, I have chances to score more notches but I don’t because I couldn’t stand to hurt her like that.

    So notch count isn’t everything, not by a long shot.

    ____________
    I agree with this statement. Lots of quality men and women have promiscuoious sex. I guess it is the low character promiscuious types that give the rest a bad name. the cads, players and supersluts all have character flaws that would probably prevent them from being good LTR material even if they were virgins.

  • AnonJohn

    and *I’m happy about it.

    +1 for proof reading before posting!

  • Butterfly Flower

    In”older” women I think the attitude is different. Most women I know, say +40, would not give a BJ unless they REALLY like the guy and was in a relationship with him.
    Hell a lot of my friends say BJ`s stopped right after she ate the wedding cake.. I`m thinking we will have wedding pie instead…lol

    So it’s a generational thing?

    In my generation [Y] BJ’s are merely a step-up from making out.

    You know, it seems like the modern attitude towards Anal is similar to the old attitude towards Oral.

  • Ramble

    And yes in my country many players are patient enough to deflower a virgin for as long as it takes just to discard her once they are done with her.

    That is so depressing.

  • Tom

    Butterfly

    Yeah I think it is generational. There has always been “that” girl who would blow anyone, but in my generation it was more reserved for the relationship. I came from the hippy era too. Lots of “free love” and love the one youre with, attitude, but BJ`s were more sacred.

    anal seems to have always been a bit more taboo. I dont think that attitude has changed too much. Pretty much a relationship thing for most. Of course there is always the exception.

  • J

    If he’s taken out his di*k, and she and he have done anything referred to in the vernacular with any term ending in ” -job”, I say it counts.

    LMAO…and you worry that people don’t appreciate your turn of phrase.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Ted D, sometimes I fall back into academic, biological mode due to my background. I come from a family of medical docs. From that perspective, blowjobs and handjobs are useless for sperm meeting egg.

    I agree with you that it matters to the guy for judging the woman’s character. However I think men don’t realize the psychological importance/weight of actual P in V sex for the woman, versus blowjobs/handjobs.

    In the case of blowjobs/handjobs, the penis was not near her vagina, and the guy would never be a potential father to her child. She doesn’t even need to mentally keep track of him in case her period is late. He’s null and void as far as reproduction is concerned.

    Biology is a pretty powerful force, and I think many women subconsciously follow their biological imperative. If a woman only performs a blowjob or handjob for a guy, some part of her has somehow deemed the guy not up to par for her to let him impregnate her. Therefore he leaves less psychological impact and bonding on her than the guy whom she did allow to have sex with her.

    Clearly I think every past partner leaves an impact, otherwise I wouldn’t have been so careful with even kissing. But I think a lot of women don’t fully understand why they do the things they do. They rationalize it to themselves as “not significant” because of the biological reasons I outlined above.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Yeah, I definitely see oral as a far more intimate thing than P in V sex. I know I certainly would never consider going down on a woman unless I was in a LTR with her. I don’t expect them to do so either, but if they do they certainly are welcome to. Just don’t expect me to reciprocate until I decide we’re in a place I feel comfortable doing so.

    I’m honestly surprised when anyone feels differently about oral being less intimate/committal. I simply don’t see any reasoning behind it unless you’re considering only the chance of pregnancy.

    Otherwise, like JM said, there’s nothing in it besides pleasuring the other person.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    BF – “So it’s a generational thing?

    In my generation [Y] BJ’s are merely a step-up from making out.

    You know, it seems like the modern attitude towards Anal is similar to the old attitude towards Oral.”

    Ummm, yeah I think so. To me, a BJ is a bit more intimate in many ways to sex. I mean, I’m trusting someone to put a VERY important and sensitive part of my body into their mouth, with TEETH!

    At least with regular P in V, there is not chance that your penis will be bitten off…

    Besides, which is MORE slutty:
    1. a woman that has lots of casual sex?
    2. a woman that blows a lot of guys?

    If I had to choose between the two, I’d take 1. At least I can assume she was in it for herself as well. But a BJ is all about pleasing (or appeasing) a man. And it says that she is VERY, VERY willing to trade sexuality for something like validation or money, and neither is attractive to me in the least.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Hope – “If a woman only performs a blowjob or handjob for a guy, some part of her has somehow deemed the guy not up to par for her to let him impregnate her. Therefore he leaves less psychological impact and bonding on her than the guy whom she did allow to have sex with her.”

    But that is EXACTLY my point. If she determined for whatever reason that she DOES NOT want him to be the father of her children, that she DOES NOT want to have P in V sex with him, why blow him? THAT to me is a very serious character flaw.

    And, as far as women not knowing WHY they do anything? I will never understand that. Well, I get that sometimes you don’t know at first, but I personally do my best to make sure I know why I feel/act a certain way. I am obviously not right all the time (blue pill days for sure!), but at least I’m trying to figure it out. I cannot understand why any person wouldn’t want to know why they do what they do.

  • Warm woman

    Jesus, I disagree that bjs r only for a man’
    S pleasure. Women can get aroused by giving oral sex. I prefer oral sex over p in v. Not all women are like me, but im sure some women get something positive out of performing. Depending on how sensitive a woman’s vagina, it’s possible to not experience insane pleasure during p in v. This is also why some women can only orgasm through clitoral stimulation.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Ted D, I can’t really answer for other women, but I think there may be several reasons.

    1) A lot of women are just going along with the flow. If the guy wants her to give him “release,” she will do it because she is pressured to do so.

    2) Some women feel like they have the power when they suck a guy off, because the man is in the vulnerable position.

    3) Mirror neuron action. Often giving another person pleasure brings oneself pleasure.

    I think most people do not fully understand their own motivations, especially when young. I count myself in this, although I did try, partially through learning about biology, psychology and others.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      I think that very promiscuous women are happy to display their well-honed skills. They give the best BJ on campus, and they want all the guys to know it. There’s a certain kind of status in that, as it results in tons of attention from guys, even being asked to formals, etc. I’ve even known a couple of young men “date” these women, just to make a statement that their cock is the one that tamed her.

      The SMP is so effed up.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Susan, do people still do the first base, second base thing? If I recall correctly oral is third base, and it might progress to that on the 3rd or 4th date. And then if it doesn’t progress more than that, she’s got an oral on her record, which she might not count as increasing her number.

    I was always against dating because I didn’t like this system.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      I haven’t heard about “bases” from any young people. They are more likely to talk about “getting it in.” In fact, the term hookup is a deliberately vague term – no bases reported. I’ve noticed that if the girls want to know if it got to P in V, they ask, “Did you hook up hook up?”

  • Warm woman

    I’m a bit surprised at the few other men not being aware that bj’s can’t arouse a woman. Perhaps I’m a minority or you haven’t met women that have vocalized enjoying giving bj’s . This may be tmi, but p in v is painful for me if done the wrong way. At least giving oral sex doesn’t involve any potential pain or feeling as if someone is tearing you apart

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @WW

      This may be tmi, but p in v is painful for me if done the wrong way. At least giving oral sex doesn’t involve any potential pain or feeling as if someone is tearing you apart

      Have you checked with your Gyn about that? It shouldn’t feel that way. As for getting aroused by giving oral, I love it too. I’m very happy when my husband is in the mood.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    That’s pretty funny Susan. I was 12 when the Clinton scandal broke. I had only been in America for 2 years, didn’t know much English, didn’t know a single cuss word or what the middle finger meant, and I remember being quite confused by the whole thing (what’s the big deal about the blue dress?).

    I think I didn’t really get it until a year or two later. Nobody explained it to me, but I learned enough English and pop culture at that point to understand.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…”I have seen women date men who have had 2 LTRs – all of high school, then all of college. And there was definitely some unresolved stuff there. For the record, I would not feel that way about a guy who had two casual flings.”

    OTOH, if a man is attractive enough to enough women to have had several sexual encounters, but has no LTRs over a period of several years, then it seems likely that companionship with women is something he doesn’t particularly value.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      OTOH, if a man is attractive enough to enough women to have had several sexual encounters, but has no LTRs over a period of several years, then it seems likely that companionship with women is something he doesn’t particularly value.

      So true. Sigh, I don’t know what the answer is.

  • Jason

    Hi Susan, I’ve only recently been reading this blog, and I really like it as it gives great advice to both sexes (especially women), but I did find this site through Roissy and that kind.

    Anyways, I want to point out a caveat to your classifications. I’m 24yo, and I graduated college last spring (with an engineering degree), and my number is ~40, not counting oral sex, but I’m still very much interested in something serious and long term. This leads me to point out that in this day and age, with 4 or 5 years in college, sex is sooooo plentiful for alphas (and I would easily classify, as I hit just about every trait you mark) that it really is not that hard at all to approach a number such as 40.

    You argue that women are repelled by this count, but ime, girls on campus knew that I got around, and that only helped me, not hurt me. There were best friends who would have sex with me one weekend after the next, simply to try to one up their friend and see if they could be the one to lock me in. So many alpha males will go into college just looking at these years as ‘fun’ before settling down, and amass a high number without even working too darn hard. It’s just the sad reality of the situation, especially for the guys not getting any.

    But now that I’m out of college and a little older, I’m definitely interested in finding a good match. Yes, I’ve gone out there and slept with women who I knew off the bat would not be LTR material, but I’ve also been dating a great girl for about 3 months now that I can really see myself with. I just don’t think numbers alone tell the whole story. And the timing of this post is funny, as just this week I had the numbers discussion with the girl I am seeing, and I was honest about it. She didn’t like it, but I highly doubt that she was ‘repelled’. I’m trying a policy of being completely open and honest, but I simply told her that if she asks something, be sure that she really wants to know the answer.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      Welcome, and thanks for that Field Report. I’m curious – what percentage of guys would you say snag that kind of sex in college?

      Re repulsion, that’s a very subjective thing. Obviously, some women do compete for hookups, or even to be part of a harem. They probably don’t feel repulsed by any number. I know one young woman who is loved by a player whose number is 100+ – he is 23, they have been friends since elementary school. He tried to win her senior year in high school, when his number was reportedly 50. (2 LTRs in college slowed him down.) She will not even consider giving him a shot. She doesn’t blame him for taking all that sex that was offered to him on a platter (he is extraordinary looking), but she says she can’t go there. She hates the idea of that long string of vaginas in his brain. Her number is very low, by any definition, so they are clearly not compatible. And there are women on this thread who have expressed disgust at the number 30.

      I think that the most troubling part of a man having a very high number is that he is less likely to be satisfied with monogamy, on average. Again, not all men – it’s a spectrum. But it is a risk factor, and I think that women, just like men, have every right to consider it.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    That is so depressing.

    I know. We even had a name for those types. (destapadores) Bottle openers. One of the reasons I was very secretive about still being a virgin, only my closest friends knew, one never knows :(

  • deti

    SW:

    “In my generation, they counted waaaayyy more. It was something we didn’t even consider until we’d been having sex for a while. And the number of guys willing to give oral was small.”

    This is like a car wreck. Must…… Look……..away….. but….I ………….CAN’T!

    This was my experience too. About half the women were not down for BJs back in my day. They would do everything else including P in V. “Ewwww. BJs are GROSS!” You knew she loved you if she was BJing you.

    But then the other half would do oral (and very, VERY well, too) and make you waaaaaaaaiiiiittttt for P in V. “That’s special. I want to make sure you really love me before we do THAT.”

    Cunnilingus was out unless he really loved her (and even then you had to learn how from Sam Kinison’s comedy album).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      This is like a car wreck. Must…… Look……..away….. but….I ………….CAN’T!

      Ha, I know the feeling! Many of my focus group meetings are like this. Sometimes they forget I’m there, or not one of them, and then I really hear some stuff.

      This was my experience too. About half the women were not down for BJs back in my day. They would do everything else including P in V. “Ewwww. BJs are GROSS!” You knew she loved you if she was BJing you.

      I can recall gossip among the frat guys in college. “She gives head” and “she swallows” were noteworthy tidbits to share. No one had ever heard of a facial at that point. And anal was strictly for the gay guys.

  • Wudang

    “agree with you that it matters to the guy for judging the woman’s character. However I think men don’t realize the psychological importance/weight of actual P in V sex for the woman, versus blowjobs/handjobs.

    In the case of blowjobs/handjobs, the penis was not near her vagina, and the guy would never be a potential father to her child. She doesn’t even need to mentally keep track of him in case her period is late. He’s null and void as far as reproduction is concerned.

    Biology is a pretty powerful force, and I think many women subconsciously follow their biological imperative. If a woman only performs a blowjob or handjob for a guy, some part of her has somehow deemed the guy not up to par for her to let him impregnate her. Therefore he leaves less psychological impact and bonding on her than the guy whom she did allow to have sex with her.”

    I highly agree with this. I have read about a couple of studies that have looked at diffrences in efect between P/V and oral. P/V seemed to have much stronger bonding efects and they found very significant diferences in hormonal afterefects from the two types of sex. Those who practice tantra also state very strongly that P/V is uniquely bonding and I feel this way myself. There are women I would not have interecourse with, ever, that I would let give me a blowjob.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      FYI, the Contact form software has been fixed. It’s unfortunate that it broke just when I invited people to email me about new focus groups. Sorry about that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      P/V seemed to have much stronger bonding efects and they found very significant diferences in hormonal afterefects from the two types of sex.

      Female orgasm opens up the oxytocin gates, so it makes sense that no bonding occurs with BJs.

  • http://deleted Jason

    Susan, I’d also like to add what is considered a high number of partners by a female, as I haven’t seen that quantitatively discussed here? I kind of have a number in my head, and when I pryed it out of the girl I am seeing (she is 24yo as well and she was reluctant to say) said 16, I was kind of grossed out. I know there is a double standard there, but I couldn’t help but feel like that. I’ll be the first one to admit that I’ve pumped and dumped with the best of them, but when I care about a girl, which is how I feel now, I am very territorial and I hated hearing that. Should this number be alarming on my end?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      Should this number be alarming on my end?

      In my focus groups, which is where I get my best data, (n=24), I’d say 16 is mid-range. They’re about the same age as your gf. There are plenty of guys here who would consider that a total dealbreaker, but my sense is that the men with lower numbers would feel most strongly about that. I think there is something to be said for the ratio. In your case, 16/40 = .4. IDK, that seems reasonable to me, but it’s a very personal choice. The double standard exists for a reason.

      Full disclosure: I hit double digits by 25 and had a few ONSs. I think my husband’s number is around the same. There are plenty of guys in the manopshere who have called me a slut.

      In this era of pumping and dumping, it’s easy for a woman to add some notches without even intending to engage in casual sex, though. I would encourage you strongly to look at her character, your compatiblity, and her ability to treat you well.

  • deti

    SW:

    “It was my birthday.
    He came outside my body.
    He lost his erection in the middle.
    I didn’t come.
    I was on my period.
    The guy turned out to be gay.”

    These are new ones. Never heard those before. (If he’s gay it doesn’t count? Are you kidding?)

    What about:

    I was drunk.
    He was drunk.
    It was Spring Break.
    He was my friend.
    He didn’t come.
    I didn’t come.
    I didn’t like it.
    It was a ONS/SNL.
    It was only once.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      (If he’s gay it doesn’t count? Are you kidding?

      I know, it’s like they’re claiming they gave it up under false pretenses. As if there were any guarantees in casual sex.

      I was drunk.
      He was drunk.
      It was Spring Break.
      He was my friend.
      He didn’t come.
      I didn’t come.
      I didn’t like it.
      It was a ONS/SNL.
      It was only once.

      Yup, I’ve heard all of those. I once recited how I witnessed a woman take her number from 36 to 6 by employing these kinds of excuses. Everyone else was laughing like crazy, but she was 100% serious. She did this b/c her new bf asked her number, first admitting his was 6. So she needed to get hers to 6, and fast. It’s been three years, he still doesn’t know. She’s constantly worried someone will slip up in front of him.

  • Wudang

    “Oh, no – I don’t think that. Back in High School, I was too busy being a nature worshiping pagan to give incomplete blow jobs to jocks in the parking lot.”

    How did you find the attitudes about men and women in the pagan circles. The reason I ask is because I have come across so many female supremacist types (including men) in meditation forums.

  • WarmWoman

    @WarmWoman”I’m a bit surprised at the few other men not being aware that bj’s can’t arouse a woman.”

    This is a typo. I meant the thought of bj’s CAN arouse some women. I’m not really sure how to explain why, but if someone genuinely enjoys the act of putting their man’s private parts in their mouth..so be it.

  • JQ

    Susan:

    You’re quite welcome. Unfortunately, upon reading it, I am forced to quibble with your interpretation of the following quote (which I assume from the similar wording and interpretation is the basis of the analysis conducted above and in your previous post):

    The coefficient for premarital sexual promiscuity in the male model was -.053 and was significant at the .006 level. This indicates that for every additional premarital sexual partner a man has, the likelihood that he will categorize himself as being extremely satisfied with his first marital sexual relationship as compared to only being moderately satisfied decreases by 5.3%. [1, pg 39]

    To put it politely, Ms. Christensen misinterprets her own results probably through simple ignorance of the details of binary logistic regression (she submitted to the School of Family Life’s Marriage and Family Therapy Program–doubtless very good at the therapy part, but clearly not so much with statistics). The “5.3%” reduction/partner is not a percentage, but a linear reduction to the log odds ratio and not to the likelihood. From Table 3 of the reference, the odds ratio for each additional partner is 0.949 for the male-only model. This means for a man with 40 partners, he has a approximately 1/8th (0.949^40 to be exact) the odds of being extremely satisfied versus his virgin peers (assuming the same demographics as defined in the control variables).

    On the back of an electronic envelope, given she reports about 85% of men in general in her sample as extremely sexually satisfied, then that gives odds of about 5.67 (without an intercept term there is really no way to get this part completely right) which becomes an odds of just under 0.7 or a probability of about 59%. This is, again, neglecting any sort of demographic controls.

    I subscribe with regard to this sort of thing to Dr. Hamming’s view that “the purpose of computation is insight, not numbers” and from that perspective the overall message is correct–a man with more sexual partners is less likely to be extremely sexually satisfied with his first marital sex partner. That said, it is far from impossible if the results of this thesis work are to be believed.

    A few caveats which I think are in order. First, I don’t believe for a minute that this model works as well for men with 40 sex partners as it does for those with 10 or 15. While I have no evidence to support it, I would suspect it biased in favor of good outcomes for these men due to small sample sizes of men with “by HUS standards high” partner counts (approx 5.6% of the men, so maybe 7 people) [1, Table 2]. Second, these are people who eventually married–so it says nothing to the relationship prospects, much less marital sexual satisfaction prospects–of the men who did not marry at any partner count. That every man in the study was at least moderately satisfied says it loudly and clearly: these are all men who were capable of being happy enough in a marriage to make it worth the gamble. Third, I agree with you and Athol Kay (as I understand both of you) that great sex should be a part of marriage and thus to the extent that premarital partner count reduces the possibility of that happening, then I agree that’s a bad thing.

    [1] S. A. Christensen, The effects of premarital sexual promiscuity on subsequent marital sexual satisfaction. Master’s Thesis. Brigham Young University, 2004

  • JQ

    @ Susan:

    Now I feel bad for posting my last on the comments–If I had waited an hour it would have gone into your inbox where I would have preferred it to go.

  • WarmWoman

    @LeapofaBeta.

    “I’m honestly surprised when anyone feels differently about oral being less intimate/committal. I simply don’t see any reasoning behind it unless you’re considering only the chance of pregnancy.”

    You got it. The moms that lecture their daughters “Don’t get pregnant or I will throw you out of this house!” don’t realize that those girls are devising other ways to keep their hormones in check.

  • Sasha

    Wudang,

    What does Tantra say on energetics of vaginal vs anal penetration?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I didn’t set the definition, I just adopted it from the SMP. I can tell you with absolute certainty that when women talk about their number, they’re talking about P in V. Period.

    This is why discussing the “number” is nigh impossible. It turns into an interrogation. How many? How many if you include blow jobs? Hand jobs? How many of these were casual? etc…

    Anyway, I’m off to the skate park. I told my girlfriend I’d take her yoga class if she let me teach her to skateboard.

    Enjoy the debate everyone.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    WarmWoman,

    BTW, didn’t mean you couldn’t enjoy it. Just that it seems to me that the enjoyable part lies in giving your partner pleasure. And if it’s some random person who doesn’t care about you, then the desire to please that person seems almost perverse.

  • Butterfly Flower

    Are you saying that your fiance has sex with a $6,000 Real Doll?

    Well, had – it was a phase he went through in college [or so he claims ;)]

    In Japan, sex dolls are a common novelty; especially since there isn’t much of a hook-up scene for single men to participate in. Screwing a robot is significantly less shameful than NSA casual sex.

    They’re made by this brand [the dolls are mostly clothed, but I'd consider the link NSFW; since, you know - it's a website for ordering customized Japanese sex dolls]:
    http://www.orient-doll.com/

    Robot partner count….it makes me wonder. Is the modern SMP is wandering into the realms of speculative fiction?

  • Sasha

    Energetically, fellatio and sex are worlds apart and both are universes away from a hand-job which is little more than an extended massage. I would even go as far as to say that deep kissing leads to higher energy exchange than fellatio (for a man).

    A fellatio involves minor-medium information exchange. While mouth/tongue are sensitive sensation wise, they are not that sensitive energy-wise – at least on the receiving end. There is also certain robustness to the tissues of the mouth because much food passes through it.

    Vagina, on the other hand, doesn’t regularly receive contact of external bodies. As such, its energetic sensitivity is very high (even if physical sensitivity might not be). On top of it, sex, unlike fellatio, can be really rough which can further deepens the effect on a woman.

    Another sign that sex affects a woman way more than fellatio are STD transmission rates – way higher for sex.

  • Wudang

    “Wudang,

    What does Tantra say on energetics of vaginal vs anal penetration?”

    I am not quite sure actually and I have read and heard several things. The teacher I trust the most say it has its place in the overal system. A book I read said that it reverses the kundalini flow and so is bad. You are just undoing what you are trying to do with the other stuff. Another perspective is that it is very powerfull because of the direct stimulation of certain centers and because you can get such a close contcat between the head of the penis and the dan tien of the woman. And then you have teh stimulation of the mans prostate directly which is a form of tantric sex and which is very common in tantra today and which certainly gives orgasms that are seen as favorable. You also have the aneros that stimulate the mans prostate and gives him multiple orgasms that are just as strong as the strongest orgasms women get and that takes you into the landscape of spiritual orgasms. Some taoist people I know say the aneros sets of JIng-Qi-Shen transformation. I have also hear anal being classified as dark tantra wahtever that means.

    My meditation teacher was a monk in the tibetan tradition for several years and knows the non sexual and sexual practices well. Basically ANYTHING can be used as long as you use it right and the worse it is normally seen to be the more energy it sets of for you to transform and use for good.

  • WarmWoman

    Susan,

    Yes, the doctor said everything is fine. She said I just needed a partner that was gentle, slow and placed importance on foreplay. It was a lack of foreplay, nervousness and not being with the right person that was causing pain in the past.

    When I think of P in V casual encounters, I think of women that are able to rip their clothes off and go at it. That obviously would be painful for me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @WW

      Good, I’m glad. Do not forget: lube is your friend.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    On the subject of men with a low count who are still hung up on the ex, I don’t think this is as big of a deal as women think. Men are present-focused and are not going to be all nostalgic for a girl in the past if she’s not still in his life.

    At one time my husband had very strong feelings for other girls. But he says, “Those girls dumped me, so they didn’t want me. If they don’t want me, then I don’t want them.” I think unless a young man experienced the perfect romance, and the girl died in a horrible accident or something, the typical dating situations don’t make him a worse bet for another girl.

    I think a guy who got dumped by an LTR is an opportunity for the new girl to one-up the previous girls, treat him better, to be more feminine and loving, and make the comparison in his mind a no-brainer. Guys may think about the “one who got away,” but if the one he has now is more attentive and sexually available, soon the bond will be for her and not the girl who didn’t want him enough to stay.

    There may be some exceptions to this, but think about it… when does a guy ever gush on and on about how great an ex is?

  • deti

    “No one had ever heard of a facial at that point. And anal was strictly for the gay guys.”

    Yeah, in college every girl who was willing to BJ also swallowed. Anal was Out. Of. The. Question for nearly everyone. She wouldn’t let you put it there, and we men weren’t gonna put it there. Only the most, ahem, adventurous men and women were doing anal when I was in college.

  • deti

    “She did this b/c her new bf asked her number, first admitting his was 6. So she needed to get hers to 6, and fast. It’s been three years, he still doesn’t know. She’s constantly worried someone will slip up in front of him.”

    Sheeesh. Very bad idea. Disaster waiting to happen.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sheeesh. Very bad idea. Disaster waiting to happen.

      Yes, that’s what happened to Jesus Mahoney. He got wind of this during a brunch with old college friends, and wound up ending his engagement. It was close enough to the date that deposits were forfeited, etc. When he first came here in the spring, his mind was reeling over that.

  • WarmWoman

    @Jesus

    “Just that it seems to me that the enjoyable part lies in giving your partner pleasure”

    Pardon my TMI again, but you guys just mentioning bj’s is causing me physiological arousal. So, I’m not sure if it strictly on just giving your partner pleasure. Or maybe my body is naturally turned on by seeing someone happy.

    As for giving bj’s to someone that doesn’t care about you, I agree that’s questionable. I think sexual attraction and pleasure can be rooted in how the partner treats you. You can’t expect to have a great sex life with someone that treats you like crap or is going to badmouth you to his buddies the next day.

  • http://deleted Jason

    Susan,

    I think current estimates are correct where it’s about 10-20% of guys on campus getting this kind of action, for various reasons. I’d also estimate that if I went into a weekend with the sole purpose of hooking up with someone random (and good looking, as I have fairly high standards), there was a slighty greater than 50% chance of that happening over the course of a given Friday and Saturday night

    I do understand your point on it being hard to be content with monogomy, but it is certainly possible. There certainly needs to be some effort on a gfs part though. Like, I would need a woman who is adventurous in bed, has a high libido, enjoys giving blow jobs, is very feminine in nature and initiates things at times. I would honestly be very very happy with an 8 who fulfilled that criteria rather than a 9.5 who was a dead fish and thought her work was done by simply opening her legs.

    And just for reference, contrary to the ‘only dumb sluts fall for game’ belief, I went to a top 10 university, and the girls I was with ranged from engineers and chem majors, to psych and journalism majors.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      And just for reference, contrary to the ‘only dumb sluts fall for game’ belief, I went to a top 10 university, and the girls I was with ranged from engineers and chem majors, to psych and journalism majors.

      First of all, I don’t think intelligence has much to do with it. Duke is hookup central – not as much as UCSB or ASU, perhaps, but it’s the norm. Nor do I think that only slutty women fall for Game – if that were true Athol wouldn’t be riding high in the manosphere. I think most if not all women will respond favorably to Game. What I do say is that not all women are slutty, or to be more precise, exhibit the same behaviors wrt promiscuity.

      I got the sense from your earlier comment you were a natural alpha – did you study Game and use it to get girls in college?

      I do think that there are certain Game principles that are more effective with certain kinds of women. Mystery designed the neg for the hottest women, to take them down a peg. He wrote Game to attract a stripper bi-curious girlfriend. Personally, I think it’s ludicrous to expect the same behavior from Las Vegas showgirls as engineering majors at Cal Tech, but that’s just me.

  • Wudang

    “Female orgasm opens up the oxytocin gates, so it makes sense that no bonding occurs with BJs.”

    I didn´t think of that but yeah absolutely. The study looked at those who received oral and had orgasms though. There was also talk of stimulation of vertain centers in the vagina (g-spot, a-spot) triggering production of hormones much different and presumedably more bonding than what is set of by clitoral orgasms. As far as I understand that mathches the tantric perspective were the clitoris is actually seen as kinda redundant in terms of direct stimulation. Also my understanding is that the tantric and taoist perspective is that the centers in the deep of the vagina connect very directly to a womans heart so if you give her orgasms by stimulating the a-spot/deep spot/cul de sac area/cervix she will bond stronger and release more oxytocin than through anything else.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang

      Also my understanding is that the tantric and taoist perspective is that the centers in the deep of the vagina connect very directly to a womans heart so if you give her orgasms by stimulating the a-spot/deep spot/cul de sac area/cervix she will bond stronger and release more oxytocin than through anything else.

      What’s the science for that? I read a new report recently that after combing through all the studies, including MRIs and other observant measures, scientists have stated there is NO evidence that the g-spot exists. That is not to say there is not wide variety in the way women experience orgasm, but as of today, no specific spot with extra nerve endings.

      Same with female ejaculation – they know it’s a fluid that exits the urethra, from the bladder. There is no scientific explanation for it if it is not urine. They cannot find a way for it to be possible. So I’m very skeptical of claims like this.

  • Oral Roberts

    “Oral sex is sex…P inside anything is sex.”

    What if she’s the one receiving the oral, does it count then? I know a few women who will only receive and not give.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan – “Heh, good luck with that. I’m glad we’ve disabused you of that notion.

    And we haven’t even considered the penises that are lost forever in some blackout part of a woman’s brain.”

    Oh no. My SO’s number includes all of that, because I specified. Well, she never got so drunk without a BF around to have any blackout sex (with a stranger anyway…), but when this discussion came up, I was specific that I was asking how many people she shared an orgasm of any kind with, whether it was a one-way deal or not.

    I’ve always included everything once it got to some type of genital contact. Feeling a girl up under her shirt? no. Putting my hand down her pants? yep

    Everyone can count however way they want. When I ask the question, I also state what I am counting, and I guess its a damn good thing based on this discussion.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Wudang and Sasha, from my personal perspective, the deepest bonding is when all the centers open up, and there’s a free flow of strong energy exchange between two people. It’s

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Oops, it’s beyond just the physical at that point.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Oh boy is there is something worst than a cheater is a cheater that rationalizes it as some sort of “calling” or spiritual path to a higher plane. And yes I knew those ones too “If I feel good then it most be good for the universe” is the ultimate “I’m the center of the universe!” level of narcissism, spare me…twice.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Oh boy is there is something worst than a cheater is a cheater that rationalizes it as some sort of “calling” or spiritual path to a higher plane. And yes I knew those ones too “If I feel good then it most be good for the universe” is the ultimate “I’m the center of the universe!” level of narcissism, spare me…twice.

      I feel the same way. If monogamy restricts the opening of energy centers, we’ll know we’ve been had. I will delete accordingly :)

  • deti

    “when women talk about their number, they’re talking about P in V.”

    This has to be an effort to keep the count low.

    Men’s numbers encompass more than P in V. To most men, if he got to the point of taking out his penis with a woman, it counts. This is an effort to get the count high.

  • Sasha

    @Hope,

    Physical is gateway to depth of spectacularly different magnitude. *Especially* for a woman.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Anacanoa, well my husband is a very spiritual man and definitely monogamous, so not all guys who are into the esoteric stuff are poly. He meditates a lot and is a very balanced and loving man, and I find him incredible because of it.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Hope – ““Those girls dumped me, so they didn’t want me. If they don’t want me, then I don’t want them.””

    THIS. I have never spent one minute of time pining for any of my exes (and the shortest LTR I had was four years.) I may have been crushed that we broke up, but once I knew they didn’t want me, I was done with them. Same reason I told my ex-wife while we were separated that she might as well call me the second she decides to go out on a date with anyone, because at that point I would know she was done with me, and I was done with her.

    And for me, there is no going back. Cheating is obvious, but even the consideration of being with another guy is enough to meet my minimum threshold. I can tolerate a lot of bad shit in general, but I have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to romantic/sexual stuff. That is a large part of why I get so irritated with the “fantasy” conversations we get into here. For me, fantasizing about another man is DAMN close to tripping that threshold.

  • OffTheCuff

    Ted: “Men – you are damned if you do, and damned if you don’t. At least men and women appear to be equal in this respect.”

    It’s clear women do not value monogamy in general, but only when personally applied to them by a favored male. The problem is, unless male monogamy is valued in general, it removes all incentive for men to apply it specifically.

    The end result of that incentive is this: “And yes in my country many players are patient enough to deflower a virgin for as long as it takes just to discard her once they are done with her.”

    Having taken the red pill, it doesn’t surprise me that any woman thinks this way, religious women included. I just like to see them finally admit it and start to accept where that leads.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OffTheCuff

      It’s clear women do not value monogamy in general, but only when personally applied to them by a favored male.

      I’m not sure what you mean here, it’s not clear to me. Are you saying they don’t value it in society? And are you generalizing to all women?

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh,
    In light of our convo last night and the questions you posed to me, id like to pose the following questions to you and would love to get your response.

    As other talking heads and the like have noted, college entrance/attendance rates for males in general, white males in particular have dropped significantly and continues apace in our time. Much of your writing here at hus rests on the assumption that women of your daughters cohort will eventually pair off with men of their social class. But the numbers as we have it make that assumption shakier by the year.

    For example, per the recent study done by the pew center on interracial marriage, 30% of white males who married black women had a college degree circa 1980; today, that number has fallen to 22%. This follows almost lockstep with the overall decline in college attendance among the white male cohort. By all accounts-& i would remind you that you have agreed with as much-this is likely to continue.

    My questions, then, are as follows:

    1. How would you feel if your daughter brought home say, bill, the white blue collar guy?

    2-and this not at all as far-fetched as it may appear-what if your daughter brought home say, deshawn, the blue collar she met in dc while interning, say on an evening out in the adams morgan district? How would you feel about either scenario; would one be more to your liking than another, and if so, how and why?

    Your response?

    Thanks!

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      Much of your writing here at hus rests on the assumption that women of your daughters cohort will eventually pair off with men of their social class. But the numbers as we have it make that assumption shakier by the year.

      I don’t claim that. I say that one-third of women with college-degrees will not have the opportunity to marry men with a degree in the next 20 years.

      1. How would you feel if your daughter brought home say, bill, the white blue collar guy?
      2-and this not at all as far-fetched as it may appear-what if your daughter brought home say, deshawn, the blue collar she met in dc while interning, say on an evening out in the adams morgan district? How would you feel about either scenario; would one be more to your liking than another, and if so, how and why?

      First of all, I am completely indifferent on the question of race. You know that I’ve said I like Bulworth’s philosophy – let’s just all fuck each other until the whole world is the color of cappucino. I am also indifferent on the question of religion, though you didn’t specifically ask that.

      Nor would I have a problem with a working class guy. In fact, I might prefer him. My criteria would include the following, off the top of my head:

      1. Is this a man of good character?
      2. Does he love my daughter and demonstrate affection?
      3. Is he a motivated person, a productive person?
      4. Is he welcoming of us, her family?
      5. Does he share the same values and goals as my daughter?
      6. Does he want children? (I want grandbabies!)
      7. Would he be a loving father?

      You probably won’t believe I truly feel this way, but I’ve already faced some of these questions with my kids’ relationship partners, and my own family is rather diverse at this point. I am very comfortable committing to what I have written here.

      Of course, I don’t get to choose. I hope she chooses wisely according to the criteria I have laid out.

  • http://deleted Jason

    Susan,

    Also, the numbers there are interesting, but obv expected in this SMP. Her particular number isn’t a deal breaker obviously (and she said 3 of those were ONS, as I asked), but I still can’t help but feel a bit disillusioned by it. While character traits are not a big deal at all for me for a ONS or a FWB, I get quite picky if deciding on whether this could go further. I will say, we do have great chemistry (personality and sexual) and I am very confident that she has never been with someone as ‘alpha’ as I, which I see her feed off of and I love.

    Also, in the interest of full disclosure, we initally started off by meeting at a bar and me taking her home that first night (so I knew she was no complete angel). While that doesn’t bode well based on statistics and by my relationship standards, she had amazingly high female energy, which I am an absolute sucker for and why I wanted to continue seeing her.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      You’re young, she sounds terrific. There is no rush. I advise you to give it more time and see how your feelings about this crystallize over time. She couldn’t resist you – and that’s what a lot of guys here have said they want. A woman who resists other guys but not him. Watch her behavior closely – if she is indifferent to other men, totally focused on you, I would say she’s probably a keeper.

  • WarmWoman

    Susan,

    Yes, lube helps..but using that alone won’t solve things. I’ve learned that I have to be with someone that I felt completely relaxed and safe with mentally. I don’t think I can have P in V sex with someone random person using lube. =/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @WW

      . I don’t think I can have P in V sex with someone random person using lube. =/

      OMG I wouldn’t want you to. It sounds like trust is going to be key, and that means plenty of emotional intimacy first.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    OTC – “It’s clear women do not value monogamy in general, but only when personally applied to them by a favored male. The problem is, unless male monogamy is valued in general, it removes all incentive for men to apply it specifically.”

    Right, so monogamy only counts if she gets it from a man that doesn’t want to give it because he knows he is high value enough to not HAVE to give it.

    For all that men may be mentally screwed over a lot by feminism, anyone with a brain cell can see just how effed up that line of thinking is.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Anacanoa, well my husband is a very spiritual man and definitely monogamous, so not all guys who are into the esoteric stuff are poly. He meditates a lot and is a very balanced and loving man, and I find him incredible because of it.

    I didn’t meant all spiritual guys, I meant the ones that advocate that. I also knew some men that kept their virginity for the same reasons cheaters cheat. Is just one of the “rationalizations” to fail to admit that their just dicks with legs. Is like the womb choice girl she is a vagina with legs but uses her knowlegde to find a higher reason for her base instincts.

  • Ramble

    This happens on every college campus in America. A woman is suspicious of a guy who’s obviously attractive to women, so she “qualifies” him by looking for signs that he is genuinely into her. He is patient, takes it slow, spends a lot of time getting to know her, etc. They spend a lot of time holding hands, progressing to making out. Weeks pass, sometimes even months. They have sex, and he’s outta there. Pretends he doesn’t know her. He was getting laid by other girl(s) the whole time. This was actually the plot of Charlotte Simmons, but it’s common enough.

    That is borderline sociopathic.

    If there is ever a survey of this kind of behaviour, I would love to hear it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      That is borderline sociopathic.

      Which coincides with reports that Dark Triad males are hitting it out of the park. People assume that such men wear their narcissism on their sleeve, but it’s not true. They can feign empathy and caring very, very well in the beginning. That’s what women are attracted to, not guys who actually going around acting like total dicks.

  • OffTheCuff

    Ted, that’s why, now absent institutions that incluclate or enforce the actual valuation of generalized (not personalized!) monogamy to women at an early age – it’s natural for women now to *pretend* that monogamy is valued. We replaced the real thing with smoke and mirrors, which still works pretty out well for women… so long as audience is fooled. If they aren’t, the whole thing falls apart.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    The end result of that incentive is this: “And yes in my country many players are patient enough to deflower a virgin for as long as it takes just to discard her once they are done with her.”

    True but to add more details the social circles are key, many women will shame a woman sleeping with a married man thus monogamy as a value will keep the problem is that even if high class women shame each other men, not being hypergamic can just go to low class centers and play as much as they want with women that are willing to gamble for the chance of getting a piece of the rich guy or just for the chance of going to places they would never go on their own. The issue is that for monogamy to work you need almost everyone to cooperate a small numbers of non-monogamous people can screwed it up badly in short time. I was witness of the slut explosion and it ate out our values in less than 2 decades, the good takes a long time to win out but the bad is as fast as speedy gonzales, thermodynamics at work.

  • http://revoltagainst.wordpress.com/ Flavia

    @Susan
    “My son is in that low count category. If he broke up with his gf, and moved on, I would not be surprised if he had trouble forgetting her (especially if she dumped him). I have seen women date men who have had 2 LTRs – all of high school, then all of college. And there was definitely some unresolved stuff there”

    Yes! This is totally what I meant. I would prefer a few caddish “adventures” than one or two LTR’s from my mate, even if it made his count higher.

  • WarmWoman

    @Ramble

    I agree..that does sound borderline sociopathic.

    Someone on okcupid messaged me asking to have NSA fun. I have more compassion for someone that’s honest about what they want than someone who feels the need to lie to get what he wants.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “Yes! This is totally what I meant. I would prefer a few caddish “adventures” than one or two LTR’s from my mate, even if it made his count higher.”

    Honestly? Maybe this is a male/female thing. I MUCH prefer my SO have numerous LTRs in her past that one single ONS. I don’t fear her previous relationships, because they ended for a reason, and at least while they lasted there was some meaning. Straight up casual sex has no meaning other than pleasure, and frankly its hard to compete with a ghost. I can be better (and am!) than any of her previous LTR partners, but I may not be able to outshine that manly alpha she spent a night with on spring break. And, the worst part? For her, that alpha is all joy and happiness. Because she never had to pickup his dirty laundry, or nurse him back to health when he was sick. For me, I can’t compete with the ideal of him, and that makes him a threat.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    To be clear, I was speaking metaphorically. I’m not actually trying to compete with some dude from Florida. :P

  • Tom

    @ susan
    Should a woman add to her number if a guy goes down on her and she doesn’t reciprocate? Does a guy count that as a “conquest?”
    _____________________
    Sure , why not?
    I would think most women would think a man licking her as a very intimate sexual act. I can see the logic if it is not counted, and also see the logic if it is counted…Good question
    I guess I have two “numbers”.. but it would depend on the question. If Im asked how many women Ive had sex with, I would include all sexual activities including p in v, oral and anal. If Im asked how many women I fucked, the number would be a little lower.

    .

  • Tom

    warm woman
    Im well aware many women get aroused from giving oral. Some women really love it. Some women I`ve known were extremely wet without me even touching them from going down.

  • Tom

    @ susan
    The unhappiest males are the low-count ones who wind up with high-count women, as we have seen.
    ______________
    While i agree with you, I`d be interested in getting your perspective on what exactly makes these low count guys unhappy about their higher count women.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “And there was definitely some unresolved stuff there. For the record, I would not feel that way about a guy who had two casual flings. It’s the emotional investment.”

    Yes, perfectly clear. A man who was monogamous to two girlfriends, is *worse* than who had two flings. Lower status. This is good stuff – it’s all fitting together perfectly.

    Given that, what reason does any young man have emotionally invest in any woman, if it’s only going to count against him?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A man who was monogamous to two girlfriends, is *worse* than who had two flings. Lower status.

      No, not lower status. Higher risk for getting rejected down the road. There’s a big difference. This attitude reflects how risk averse both men and women have become, which further suppresses the formation of meaningful relationships. I’m not saying this is a good thing. It also may be wrong – I’ve known of a couple of cases where the guy just wasn’t over his previous LTR of several years. I don’t want to over-emphasize this or overreact.

      I have no evidence whatsoever that girls feel this way. I was talking about my own sense of what might be right for my child. I don’t even have any idea whether she would agree.

  • Charm

    I haven’t read all of the comments, as the thread has gotten quite long since I last commented, but I would like to address a couple things mentioned.

    1. Men with high numbers, have no problem pulling women.
    2. Women who say they dislike high numbers will still date men with them.

    Both of ^^^ those are very true. I’m not trying to speak for other women, though I feel like some of the other female commenters might be trying to.

    I think men with high numbers do just fine for themselves. I’m not saying that they don’t but I will say that I don’t equate having 50 sex partners with being good at sex. I’d bet that someone like Athol Kay has more experience than alot of people. The natural alpha that I know takes pride in being good at sex and viewing new sex partners as a learning experience rather than just a means to “get off”.

    The way that men treat numbers of sex partners like a badge of honor is the silly thing to me. I just don’t get that. But its probably because I’m not male. It doesn’t impress me at all. I don’t think “Wow, he had sex with that attractive woman? I really want some of that.” Maybe other women do? I can’t speak for them. I can only speak for myself.

    Though, now that I think about it, I think it comes down to the fact that I it translates to me as lack of impulse control and poor decision making. With the amount of STDs floating around, choosing to have a bunch of sexual partners seems like the dumbest behavior to me. If you want risk, parachute out of a plane or something. Don’t have sex with a random girl you picked up heavily intoxicated from a bar. <–not saying everyone does this but, you get my point.

    I think someone already mentioned that a man can slum it and rack up partners, and because I don't know that he was having safe sex with only the highest quality of women, I'd assume the worse case scenario. That threatens my own safety and I don't like that.

    From what I've observed, a lot of "alphas" have a certain type of girl they go for anyway. These types of girls will put up with their high(er) numbers and will gladly fight with other women to keep them.

    Like you guys keep saying: A girl would rather have share an alpha than have a beta to herself. Even if say, 80% of women wouldn't mind, it doesn't make the 20% irrelevant. I feel like its hard for some men to believe that notch count of man could disqualify him with a woman.

  • Tom

    @ susan
    In your case, the number would have obvs been a lot higher if you hadn’t had that long LTR.
    ______________
    Similar to what Ive stated before. Not much difference between a woman with 20 lovers and a woman who had 8. A lot depends on when you enter into a relationship with a person you fall in love with. The attitude can be the same.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan – “For the record, I would not feel that way about a guy who had two casual flings. It’s the emotional investment”

    I have never been more disappointed in any single thing you have posted. You spend so much time and energy trying to convince young women to get with the beta guys, and then you slam those beta men with this comment. As a guy with no casual flings in my sexual past, I’m glad to know all my emotional investment makes me a bad candidate for all the promiscuous women you are counseling to hitch their wagon to guys like me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      I have never been more disappointed in any single thing you have posted. You spend so much time and energy trying to convince young women to get with the beta guys, and then you slam those beta men with this comment.

      That was not my intention. I don’t think I’m expressing myself very well here. There are very few men who even fit this description. I know a couple of cases where men exited LTRs of 4-7 years and started dating someone new right away. It worked out badly for the new women. Maybe it’s akin to dating someone who is separated or newly divorced. It’s not to say that person will never be ready for another commitment, but you probably don’t want to be the first woman a newly divorced guy takes out to dinner. That can be even more pronounced when people are young and immature.

      As I said, I don’t think a guy would want to be with someone who was haunted by thoughts of another man, or who hadn’t really gotten emotionally free from a prior relationship.

  • Wudang

    The best rationalization to get your partner count down ever is to count a gangbang as only one notch since the guys kinda only shared one lay with you. You sorta only got laid once since it was all one session you know.

  • Tom

    @ Jason
    the girl I am seeing (she is 24yo as well and she was reluctant to say) said 16, I was kind of grossed out. I know there is a double standard there, but I couldn’t help but feel like that. I’ll be the first one to admit that I’ve pumped and dumped with the best of them, but when I care about a girl, which is how I feel now, I am very territorial and I hated hearing that. Should this number be alarming on my end?
    ____________________
    It is alarming only if you think it is. Sex isnt gross, except for STD`s. What is the difference to her physically if it was 16 different dicks or one dick 16 times? Everyone has their own tolerance level when it comes to a number. You need to figure out what yours is.

  • Wudang

    “Oh boy is there is something worst than a cheater is a cheater that rationalizes it as some sort of “calling” or spiritual path to a higher plane. And yes I knew those ones too “If I feel good then it most be good for the universe” is the ultimate “I’m the center of the universe!” level of narcissism, spare me…twice.”

    A female yoga teacher I know got hit on by a famous american yoga teacher at a retreat he was leading and his reasoning for wanting to cheat on his wife who was with their kids a couple of rooms down the hall was that he needed to “express his truth” whatever that means. The real truth was that his wife was not having sex with him anymore after she gave birth and he was desperately horny.

    Did you read the wombchoice nutcase page Ana? It was exactly this kind of stuff. The woman who runs it is apparently encouraging her client to sleep with a married man because her womb had chosen him and outdated norms culdn`t stand in the way of what is good for humanity. good for humanity is litteraly in this womens view that a woman bang any man that makes her tingle regardless of the consequences.

  • Charm

    @Leap #159

    Okay, is it odd that I think the same thing about a man? Having too many sex partners to me=not being able to bond sexually. I know its argued otherwise, but fuck that noise, its not how I see it. I also don’t see flirting with other women or ability to “pull” other women as some sign of attractiveness either. I’d naturally assume that a man is with men because he wants me. I, personally, would never try to qualify myself to someone. Seems silly. If a man feels the need to show his worth by flirting with or showcasing he can do better than I’d tell him to do so. I’d think that a person would rather be single then to feel like they are lucky to have someone. <—Am I projecting? I've realized I have that problem.

    I always think about the Legally Blonde clip Badger posted on his blog. When Elle insinuates that she slept with the guy, the other girls are instantly interested because it shows he can get women that look like Elle. In that moment, her attractiveness influenced their attraction to him. <—I really don't understand that.

    My answer would have been hell no, and I would have stuck by it. I'll admit though, I'm not seeing too many other women who believe the same. So my opinion gets thrown in the "not enough people believe this so it isn't as important" pile. Meh.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Charm

      So my opinion gets thrown in the “not enough people believe this so it isn’t as important” pile. Meh.

      Your opinion is very important, especially if you are in the minority. Don’t let others dismiss your POV. Nothing you have said is new to me. The expressions manwhore, manslut and trash dick came into use for a reason. Men with high numbers almost certainly have HPV, and they very likely have Herpes as well. As Vox Day said, his alpha friends used to play STD bingo.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Tom – ” What is the difference to her physically if it was 16 different dicks or one dick 16 times? ”

    Well, if it is 16 different guys, then she chose to open herself up to a pretty good sized number of men. If it was one guy 16 times, it looks like she made an attempt to be exclusive.

    Again, it isn’t about the actual physical act of sex. It is the emotional/spiritual damage that is the real concern. You are correct, short of STDs there is no physical risk/damage from sex. But, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t hidden damage in the soul.

  • Wudang

    “I am very confident that she has never been with someone as ‘alpha’ as I, which I see her feed off of and I love.”

    Rollo makes the argument that that is what is really important. He posted about it not so long ago.

  • Yuoin

    No, it’s okay; I wouldn’t blame you for assuming the worst. Being a virgin definitely made me an outlier among my Catholic school classmates [oh, the irony of that statement].

    Is it just me or does Butterfly Flower have a serious vendetta against the Catholic Church? Her post just flashes disdain. Must be her Japanese blood. Japanese people are sometimes considered the most secular the world over. Last time I heard Japanese people have weird sexual fetishes as well (but I don’t think Butterfly Flower has that).

  • Wudang

    @Wudang and Sasha, from my personal perspective, the deepest bonding is when all the centers open up, and there’s a free flow of strong energy exchange between two people.

    Sounds nice. I have only tasted the begining of that or any sort of more energetic sex.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @OffTheCuff and Ted D, I don’t agree that a man who has had only casual flings is preferable. I want to be with a man who shares similar views about sex as me, and my husband is such a man. He didn’t want to make out randomly with just anyone, even if she was hot. This is another YMMV situation.

    I think it’s also not the case that women here are saying the men who had serious relationships are “lower status.” They are more jealous of that intense connection and want a man who hasn’t been emotionally “imprinted” by another woman. This would only be a valid concern if the two lovers were driven apart by circumstance, Romeo and Juliet style. But girls sometimes do get back in contact with their ex’s, in this age of email and Facebook. Unfinished business is bad for the new girl, and a lot of girls want to avoid that.

    Maybe the reason why I am not concerned about this is because I am confident about my ability to emotionally connect. I can also sense when a man is not fully over an ex and not ready to fall in love again, so I wouldn’t get as far as establishing an emotional connection with him in the first place. I don’t get with a man unless we are falling in love with each other.

    I know my husband feels my tremendous love for him, and it is stronger than any other woman has offered him with perhaps the exception of his mother, but that’s love of a different nature. So I’m not intimidated by his ex’s or his previous emotional entanglements. They’re over now, and they all pale in comparison to our love for each other, which is multiplied by our love for our baby and the tragedy our family all went through together.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      They are more jealous of that intense connection and want a man who hasn’t been emotionally “imprinted” by another woman.

      Thanks, Hope, you put it much better than I did. It is about feeling threatened by that previous emotional connection. And I will say again, that I don’t think it’s very different from a man’s worrying when he gets a sense that his woman had a previous sexual connection that was extremely intense for her.

  • http://deleted Jason

    @Wudang

    “Rollo makes the argument that that is what is really important. He posted about it not so long ago.”

    I think I recall reading that, and it does lend some good vibes to me.

    Also, Ted D makes some great points about “the emotional/spiritual damage”, which is the real concern. As for my particular situation, I would love to get a few opinions…

    A few weeks ago we got on to the conversation of past LTRs. She has had two, one of which was in college and she glossed over and said she loved him but it just fell off, he was ‘too nice’ and it wasn’t going to work (she pretty much crushed a nice beta, so nbd to me). The other one came with a fellow teacher after she moved after college for her teaching job (she is a special ed teacher). From putting things together, this coworker (a gym teacher) is fairly alpha as well and failed to ‘take things further’ in her words. This realtionship lasted for about 1.5 years before it broke off, meaing it started when she was 22 and the guy was about 29 or 30 (obv alpha cred, as he bagged the hot new teacher on the scene).

    She definitely DID NOT gloss over this story, and just telling me about him, the tone of her voice subconciously changed. The circumstances bugged me (would never actually tell her this) and I instinctively said ‘he never told you he loved you, did he?’ She hemmed and hawed around the question, but eventually she said I was right. I think this is the most disturbing thing of my whole situation, as emotional damage like this is really hard to replace. And the real kicker is that she still sees the guy around all the time, as they work at the same school.

    Does it sound like damaged goods though? I have the potential to completely replace that damage, but it seems like a bit of a battle, knowing what I know about women. I will absolutely not commit myself to a woman who still longs for a guy in the past, as that would only lead to unfullfillment on both ends. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Charm
    “Okay, is it odd that I think the same thing about a man? Having too many sex partners to me=not being able to bond sexually. I know its argued otherwise, but fuck that noise, its not how I see it.”

    I think for women looking at men its less about them being able to bond and more looking for signs that he’ll want to. My understanding from the studies is that a woman can mess up her pair bonding ability, where with men its just less likely that he’ll choose you as the one that he’ll calm down and settle down with. More because he has choices and the woman in question might not be the one he goes with.

    So yeah, I think you may be projecting a bit there for your reasons, but it still gets you on the lookout for the same kind of man you personally seem to want to stay away from.

    “I, personally, would never try to qualify myself to someone. Seems silly. If a man feels the need to show his worth by flirting with or showcasing he can do better than I’d tell him to do so”

    As for this part, I think its silly if a man’s doing it just to show off, peacock, and qualify himself. He should be having a good time with people simply to have a good time. If you find someone that does that instead of playing games and wants you in a relationship, you probably found a keeper.

    ” I’d think that a person would rather be single then to feel like they are lucky to have someone”

    This part has me curious. What exactly do you mean? Do you mean that you don’t want to feel like you won someone? That you are lucky to have them but that you earned them? That they had options and they chose you because you’re special? Those, from what I’ve heard, are the natural way most men and women want to feel. That they’re a special snowflake that attracted their true love over all the other trash.

    You could be different than that. And I’m curious if you are.

  • Tom

    For the record, I would not feel that way about a guy who had two casual flings. It’s the emotional investment”
    Ted……..
    I just read the other day that women are more concerned about the emotional side of a fling a man has, while men are more concerned with the physical side.
    In other words, a woman might ask, “Do you love her?”…. while a man might ask, “did you fuck him?”
    Personally I think it is all kind of childish to worry about what your prospective mate did before they even knew you (and your expectations) were even alive. take them for how they are NOW, or not.

  • http://deleted Jason

    “I got the sense from your earlier comment you were a natural alpha – did you study Game and use it to get girls in college?”

    Susan,

    In many aspects growing up through high school I was a natural alpha, just not with women for whatever reason. I grew up on the southside of Chicago, hung out with some rough people here and there, got into fights and small scale trouble, but I was also very intelligent and new that I needed to capitalize on that aspect through a good college education. I am also 6’0, fairly good looking and I played a college sport, all things on the alpha spectrum.

    But even with all that ‘natural alpha’ credibility, I wasn’t able to get the girls that I wanted, mainly because I was too nice and timid with females based on upbringing. I’m a very logical thinker as an engineer, and once I found Game things absolutely clicked for me. I never used Game for stupid canned openers or prescripted stories, but rather for a general outline of what works and what does not. Once I figured out the psychological aspect, I’ve been completely natural and being able to obtain women has just been an extension of my personality.

    I guess I’m kind of a weird split, as I was never a bitter angry beta who never got attention from women, but on the other end when I was in high school I didn’t exactly have a line of amazing girls looking to get with me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      Thanks, that makes sense. It sounds like you were able to do some great self-development without too much difficulty and improved your life a lot. I hope you were a player and not a cad. :(

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I’m surprised the guys here aren’t telling Jason to run the other way already.

    @Jason, female perspective here, so I’ll probably be a little bit sympathetic to her. She sounds quite misguided and in the dark, and like she hasn’t quite gotten to the introspective, self-reflective, take responsibility for her own actions stage of maturity yet.

    She hems and haws her way around your questions because she’s ashamed, but she isn’t owning up to her past completely. It is a red flag. Not saying she should be proud of her past, but she should at least be saying something like, “It was foolish of me to have done that, and I’ve learned my lesson. I will be more in control of myself in the future.”

    What do numbers mean? That’s something they like to ask in statistics. More importantly, do you care? 16 is pretty high for anyone, not just girls. Even Vox says 15+ is alpha territory.

    She’s probably quite a looker and at the height of her beauty. She won’t remain that way forever. Meanwhile, you’re still on your way up, and your stock is rising. What has she got that will stand the test of time?

    Put yourself in the perspective of a completely objective stranger, viewing both you and this girl. Perhaps the stranger would also ask these questions. Does he want to be with her for life, and does she want to be with him for life? Are they truly in love with each other and in it through thick and thin? Do they have compatible backgrounds and goals in life? Is she wife and mother material? Is he husband and father material? Can they build a life together and weather the many coming storms without breaking the ship upon the rocks? Or are they destined to go their separate ways once the initial glow of new love wears off, and problems and conflicts arise?

    Do you truly want to entwine your future with this girl’s, or do you want to keep looking, knowing you will both probably change and grow throughout your lives? No one else can make your decision for you. Only you can choose your own path.

  • anonymous

    Anon John: “There just always seemed to be sex available to me from quality females.”

    I find this funny.
    Here guys are always complaining that *quality females* are so rare and you were able to find 60+ at only 36 yrs old.

  • anonymous

    Susan: “No, not lower status. Higher risk for getting rejected down the road.”

    I would rather be left for someone who really meant something to him than be left for many who mean nothing to him.
    First scenario, I mean less than a deeper connection to a very special someone.
    2nd scenario- I mean less than nothing.

  • Charm

    @Leap

    Re lucky to have someone

    Lol. That was an odd way to put it no? Sorry.

    I don’t want to feel like I’m struggling to hold on to someone like less attractive women do to “alpha” men. I guess I don’t want to feel the dread because I’d rather be single than be grappling for someones attention. This isn’t to say I’d treat a man like crap. Maybe other women do? It means that I’d respect him enough to value him and I’d hope he did the same with me.

    Even if I was in the courting phase with someone and they tried to DHV then me by say, flirting with a waitress, he’d lose points. He probably wouldn’t be for me. It wouldn’t be thrilling or it wouldn’t be exciting, it’d be a turn off. And he’d look like an ass. Im not saying he has to have tunnel vision thats pointed solely at me, but I think it comes down to being respectful.

    If I’m giving a man my attention, I’d expect the same behavior for him.

    My natural assumption is that a man can get other women, but chooses to be here with me. And if he can’t get other women, then I’d rather him choose to be single than to be with a woman who treats him like crap just to have a female in his life. But like I said, I’m not a man. Maybe I’m missing something.

  • Escoffier

    [abe simpson]

    In my day, a BJ was a rare thing, given only by a serious GF and even then often begrudgingly. The idea that it was “less” than sex occured to no one. I can recall exactly one instance of a girl who got a reputation for giving them out a bit freely and it absolutely destroyed her.

    My rather dim recollection is that no girl actually liked it, thought that may be owing to my sample, perhaps I just never met any of the ones who did. Swallowing was basically un-heard of. The most, ahem, adventurous girl I was ever with claimed never to have done it up to that point.

    I have a very Catholic friend, at least he is now, he had a sort of a lascivious youth, clams a count of 40 which is plausible, and he married a very nice Catholic girl and he told me once that she wasn’t a virgin when he married her but her count was low and, importantly, “no oral.” That was important to him.

    [/abe simpson]

  • CornSyrupy

    I’m glad Jesus Mahoney mentioned Clerks, as the lack of its mention was driving me batty. That scene is the seminal one (pun intended) for many GenX discussions of whether or not oral counts. There must be a generational difference, because based on numerous cocktail party conversations with my peers (40-ish), everyone I know counts it. Heck, among my buddies, as soon as a woman with a high partner count comes up in conversation, there’s about a 90% chance someone will quote the parking lot line.

    Here’s the clip (NSFW language!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpQqH4H_SUQ

  • Tom

    @ Jason
    My first question is, does she love you? If she does, she probably isnt pining for mr alpha gym teacher any longer. I am around some guys my fiance used to see. Actually they are pretty decent guys. In all honestly I can see why she may have been attracted to them. No big deal. You know her as a pationate woman right?. She was probably like that with all men from her past, so what. They are exes for a reason.
    I`d say dont sweat it, she didnt know you then and loves you now? The gym teacher is not a threat to you now. So what if she finds him attractive, he probably IS attractive, no biggy.

  • http://deleted Jason

    @Hope

    Thank you for your reply. As for the reluctance, I saw that as a red flag as well, so we are on the same page, but even with that she was honest with me, and I can appreciate that aspect.

    “What do numbers mean? That’s something they like to ask in statistics. More importantly, do you care? 16 is pretty high for anyone, not just girls. Even Vox says 15+ is alpha territory.”

    This is interesting. I want to not care, especially considering my own number, but I can’t help my raw feelings that linger, especially after knowing everything that comes with the so called redpill. Is it a dealbreaker? No. Is it a cause for pause and more introspection? Yes.

    “She’s probably quite a looker and at the height of her beauty. She won’t remain that way forever. Meanwhile, you’re still on your way up, and your stock is rising. What has she got that will stand the test of time?”

    She is at the height, or maybe just to the right of the apex, of her beauty, and I am extremely attracted to her, but if I am being fair, I have been with more objectively attractive women. It’s great that she is tall (5’9″) and has legs that go for days as well. I hate the numbers game, as it is very subjective, but I’d give her a universal 8.

    What really drew me in, as I touched on before, was her extreme feminine energy, which ime, can’t be faked or replaced by sheer looks. It all comes out in how she handles herself, how she dresses, how she looks at me, etc. It’s hard to put into words, but energy like that is rare and turns my logical brain into a pile of mush which makes me want to slay a dragon for her or something. And that is scary to me, cuz I almost never feel this way about a girl.

    “Put yourself in the perspective of a completely objective stranger, viewing both you and this girl. Perhaps the stranger would also ask these questions. Does he want to be with her for life, and does she want to be with him for life? Are they truly in love with each other and in it through thick and thin? Do they have compatible backgrounds and goals in life? Is she wife and mother material? Is he husband and father material? Can they build a life together and weather the many coming storms without breaking the ship upon the rocks? Or are they destined to go their separate ways once the initial glow of new love wears off, and problems and conflicts arise?”

    These are all very good questions, which of course I need to answer. Being introspective, I’m somewhere in between the dad/cad spectrum. I have access to good looking women, and don’t get me wrong, I really do enjoy the thrill of the hunt, so to speak, but I also CRAVE a certain kind of affection (which is not found in pump and dumps) and I LOVE taking on the role of protector/rock.

    Thanks for letting me talk this through.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I must also (respectfully) raise objections to some of the things you have written in this post.

    First, this is anecdotal, so not worth much I guess, but as to the notion that only a few LTRs makes a guy problematic because he is probably hung up on one or both of them. Once you factor out the short term flings, the HS starter girlfriends, the quick realizations that “this is going nowhere,” etc., then I really only had to serious LTRs before marriage. One was in college, the other in grad school and carried into my first job. I had no problem bonding with the wife and I don’t pine for either one of them, which is not to say that I don’t have fond memories. Maybe it matters who broke up with whom. I ended it both times because I knew it couldn’t work out with either one. Come to think of it, apart from the very first GF, and even that was ambiguous, I really have never been dumped which is strange given how beta I am …

    Anyway, I have to agree with the guys who say you are throwing poor betas under the bus here. I was particularly alarmed by your comment that a guy with a 15-30 count is a “catch” BECAUSE OF that count. I mean, he might be based on other qualities. But BECAUSE OF?

    It’s one thing to analyze female nature and note that preselection is real and it has an effect. But I thought the main point of your blog was to make girls aware of the low and problematic aspects of their nature and help them overcome them. Claims like that amount to excusing, and even encouraging, alpha-cad chasing.

    Preselection is a natural impulse that does not need any encouragement. IMO, you should be trying to tamp it down.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      I’d like to put this post, and my comment, in context. First, the guys here in their late 30s or early 40s have been out of the SMP for some time. Hookup culture took hold in the early 90s, and all hell broke loose. The average age at marriage has gone up. The dynamic on college campuses is very, very different than what you or I lived through. I don’t know if during your college years you went on any dates, but the average number of dates a female college student goes on today in four years is .5. Half a date. So the people that are having casual sex are generally having a lot of it.

      Second, Vox’s sample was late 30s. 15 partners between age 18 and 30 doesn’t seem all that excessive to me, particularly in a time when relationships are not prioritized. 15 partners in college is a vastly different situation.

      Third, Vox’s observation was that for women who must have Alpha, 30 partners is the max before men begin to strongly oppose marriage. I generally don’t recommend marrying alphas at all, but let’s face it – there’s no shortage in this SMP of women who hope to do so. For them, Vox’s guideline is helpful. Also, the women with the highest SMV – the ones who would have gone steady with alphas a generation or two ago, are still going to want to marry men with very high SMV. Preselection is one indicator of that, though I do believe a high number boomerangs on a guy at some point. I don’t think that point is 15 or 30. In that sense, a guy with 15 past partners who has sowed his wild oats and wants to marry and have a family is a catch.

      Fourth, I don’t think that women should seek a guy who has 15-30 partners. I don’t think they’re a catch in that sense. On the other hand, I believe that many men with those numbers are “dads” at heart, and that’s the point Vox was making. The beta guys who grew up with my kids (nearly all their friends) are in their early to mid 20s. They don’t get laid every other weekend, like Jason did, but they each probably score about 3-4 ONSs a year, and several have turned down relationships in order to have that freedom and hang with the buddies the rest of the time. Those guys won’t get to their 30s without marrying, I don’t think, but I suspect they’ll all go over 15 partners.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Jason, glad you found it somewhat helpful, and good luck.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Charm
    “Even if I was in the courting phase with someone and they tried to DHV then me by say, flirting with a waitress, he’d lose points. He probably wouldn’t be for me. It wouldn’t be thrilling or it wouldn’t be exciting, it’d be a turn off. And he’d look like an ass.”

    Interesting. What qualifies as flirting with the waitress? Simply being nice and small talk or actually hitting on her? I generally do the first, regardless of if I’m on a date or not. I too would put anyone flirting with the waitress while on a date as playing games with the person they’re on a date with and advise them to stay away from that kind of person for a relationship.

    But then, I don’t dig manipulative games of power plays in relationships. Fun game and word play, yes. Manipulation its pretty much going to happen just to have a relationship these days – and it can be fun and good to do so. But it shouldn’t be about power.

    Why? Because I should have the power.

    ….

    I kid.

    ….

    Maybe.

  • http://deleted Jason

    @Tom

    I think it is too early as this stage for either of us to ‘love’ one another, but I could see it going that route in the future, which is a bit scary for me. Honestly, I’m a bit tired of sleeping around, I work a very busy schedule trying to get my career off the ground at a high profile company, and if I’m looking at someone as a potential LTR, then I’m noting the long term future possibilities at this point, thus the introspection.

    @Susan

    Definitely more of a player than a cad. I never went out with the intention of hurting girls, and when asked I was always pretty open and honest about my intentions and situation. If they still chose to sleep with me after that, you couldn’t blame me haha.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      If they still chose to sleep with me after that, you couldn’t blame me haha.

      I do not blame you. You’re getting some good advice here, I’m glad you brought your questions to the thread. People here are very generous with their time.

  • Escoffier

    16 is sky high for me, Jason, to the best of my knowledge I’ve never been with a woman whose count is that high and if I knew/had known, I would have run like hell.

    I did not know the Jesus Mahoney story before, good for him. I realize it was painful, but it beats the alternative and so many men would have felt that THEY had the problem and bludgeoned themselves into going through with it. I hope he told her the real reason (privately, politely, but truthfully).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I hope he told her the real reason (privately, politely, but truthfully).

      Oh yes, he did. In fact, after he learned the truth, he waited a couple of days for her to come to him with the truth. When she didn’t, he asked, and she denied it at first. I think it was pretty rough all around. To be fair, he admits he had never specifically asked.

  • Tom

    @ susan
    Thanks, Hope, you put it much better than I did. It is about feeling threatened by that previous emotional connection. And I will say again, that I don’t think it’s very different from a man’s worrying when he gets a sense that his woman had a previous sexual connection that was extremely intense for her.

    __________________
    I agree. the genders, in general, do seperate the concerns as you described. It drives a lot of men crazy thinking about their womans sexual past. I still feel that is a big reason why a lot of men perfer a woman with a lower number. Hard to deal with the inner thoughts.

  • J

    Female orgasm opens up the oxytocin gates, so it makes sense that no bonding occurs with BJs.

    Perhaps I’m old, but this really seems halfbackasswards to me. Back in the day, a handy filled the niche that the bj apparently fills now. BJs were for men who had already given you several orgasms, after there was a bond. Only hookers blew strangers.

  • Tom

    Ted
    You are correct, short of STDs there is no physical risk/damage from sex. But, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t hidden damage in the soul.
    __________________
    I wont really disagree with you. But…….. 16 lovers doesnt mean there IS damage either. There could be, or there might not be. That is why you really get to know a person before entering into a relationship. Some people use each experience as a learning occation, wheather that was its purpose or not.

  • J

    I’ve learned that I have to be with someone that I felt completely relaxed and safe with mentally.

    As long as thre’s no underlying physical problem, you should listen to what your body is telling you. No sex without trust is a good guideline.

  • http://deleted Jason

    @J

    “Perhaps I’m old, but this really seems halfbackasswards to me. Back in the day, a handy filled the niche that the bj apparently fills now. BJs were for men who had already given you several orgasms, after there was a bond. Only hookers blew strangers.”

    Lol, J, you really must be old. I just got out of college 8 months ago, and for guys who got some consistently, getting blown was akin to shaking hands on campus. A vast majority of girls will eagerly give a blow job, but not have sex, as to maintain their ‘sanctity’.

  • Passer_By

    @Susan
    “I confess I would worry if he had only been with 1 or 2 women in LTRs – too much risk he still isn’t over one or both.”

    I think that you might be hamsterwheeling a justification for not liking this, when in reality it’s because he might just be a low value mate.

    “My criteria would include the following, off the top of my head:

    1. Is this a man of good character?
    2. Does he love my daughter and demonstrate affection?
    3. Is he a motivated person, a productive person?
    4. Is he welcoming of us, her family?
    5. Does he share the same values and goals as my daughter?
    6. Does he want children? (I want grandbabies!)
    7. Would he be a loving father?”

    You left out “8. A high enough notch count to ensure that’s he’s sexy and charming but not so high as to be a man whore.” :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      I think that you might be hamsterwheeling a justification for not liking this, when in reality it’s because he might just be a low value mate.

      You’re certainly not the only one to say this. If you’re right it’s subconscious. I think it’s more likely that I’ve been influenced by a couple of stories I know personally. I’m glad to hear that this notion does not resonate with the men.

      A high enough notch count to ensure that’s he’s sexy and charming but not so high as to be a man whore.”

      You won’t find me denying preselection. It sort of drove me crazy to watch Mr. HUS go for Penn undergrads before we got together, and it definitely made me want him more.

  • Tom

    Jason I too was a college athlete, so I can relate. I was a good guy too. I never miscommunicated my intentions. Yeah a couple women wanted more, but they were told up front I was not interested in a relationship. I can`t blame them for trying and I dont blame myself for the expereinces.
    Your gf should be given the same consideration. she might just be a woman who has a good head on her shoulders.

  • J

    It sounds like trust is going to be key, and that means plenty of emotional intimacy first.

    SW–I wrote post #343 before I saw the above. We must be twinsies today.

  • Escoffier

    Right, S, it’s hard to escape the conclusion that you are saying a high-count man is inherently worth more than a low(er) count man.

    I understand that a part of female hindbrain is programmed to think that but you should be slapping that part upside the head and saying “Snap out of it, bitch!” not “You go girl!!”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Right, S, it’s hard to escape the conclusion that you are saying a high-count man is inherently worth more than a low(er) count man.

      Come on, you know me better than that. I’ve written several posts on avoiding manwhores and I was quoted, unfortunately, referring to “trash dick” in the Atlantic. As I said, I hope my own daughter gets with a lower count guy. I just don’t think 15-30 partners in 20 years is that off the charts.

  • J

    Esco/Abe #327

    Remember when we called turkey “walking bird” and “wore an onion on our belts because that was the style then”?

  • Tom

    esoffer
    Is your number anywhere near 16?

  • WarmWoman

    @J “As long as thre’s no underlying physical problem, you should listen to what your body is telling you. No sex without trust is a good guideline.”

    That’s it exactly. If it hurts, it means my body is telling me this is the wrong man. I was also trying to give insight as to why some girls avoid vaginal penetration during casual encounters, but are okay with *other things*.

    Then again, the men have a point as to why a woman would be okay with a putting a penis in her mouth that belongs to a man that she’s nervous having P in V with.

  • Tom

    You left out “8. A high enough notch count to ensure that’s he’s sexy and charming but not so high as to be a man whore.”

    _____________
    That number will be different depending on a person`s perspective and point of view.

  • anonymous

    david foster: “OTOH, if a man is attractive enough to enough women to have had several sexual encounters, but has no LTRs over a period of several years, then it seems likely that companionship with women is something he doesn’t particularly value.”

    That’s the way I see it. Very little relationship potential.

  • Ramble

    @Ramble

    That is borderline sociopathic.

    Which coincides with reports that Dark Triad males are hitting it out of the park. People assume that such men wear their narcissism on their sleeve, but it’s not true. They can feign empathy and caring very, very well in the beginning. That’s what women are attracted to, not guys who actually going around acting like total dicks.

    1. As with most things we discuss here, I think the Dark Triad stuff exists on a spectrum. I am confident that I am no sociopath, but I have had more than one girl call me an “asshole” with a smile on her face.
    2. Susan, you seem to really want it to be that girls are falling for the “nice” parts of a Dark Triad guy (e.g. feigning empathy), and NOT the Darker parts of his personality.

    Sometimes, it seems like you are telling yourself this. But, I can’t get on board. I have seen too much to believe that. Way, WAY too many girls have fallen for unrepentant ‘bad boys’, and it was obviously the bad-ness that they were falling for. They probably melted when he did reveal his softer side (whether it was calculated on his part or genuine), but, it was the Dark Triad stuff that drew her attention to begin with.

    Again, I am not saying that they are all sluts, or whatever. Or, that it is the really dark stuff that gets most girls…again, so much is on a spectrum. But, for those girls that do fall for Dark Triad guys, it is often the Dark side that really got them (IME).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Way, WAY too many girls have fallen for unrepentant ‘bad boys’, and it was obviously the bad-ness that they were falling for. They probably melted when he did reveal his softer side (whether it was calculated on his part or genuine), but, it was the Dark Triad stuff that drew her attention to begin with.

      I don’t want to go down this rabbit hole again. I’ve published several posts on this topic. Women who go for Dark Triad types share certain personality traits, often similar to the Dark Triad themselves. You are right that the behaviors are on a spectrum, ranging from girls who like the boy who talks back to the teacher in class to women who write proposals to men on Death Row. The “bad boy” who does so well in high school is often a handsome outsider. No ugly dude with a sociopathic attitude gets very far with women. IOW, there are numerous factors involved – degree of oppositional behavior, degree of sociopathy, how handsome the guy is, etc. And, as you say, whether he knows how to show his soft side as part of his repertoire.

      I feel that guys tend to simplify this, perhaps in hopes that assuming such behaviors is a handy shortcut to getting girls. By all means, give it a try and report back.

  • Tom

    if a man is attractive enough to enough women to have had several sexual encounters, but has no LTRs over a period of several years, then it seems likely that companionship with women is something he doesn’t particularly value.”

    That’s the way I see it. Very little relationship potential.

    ._______________
    or after the women get to know him, they realize he has issues and the relationships never really get off the ground. I have a friend that swears he wants a relationship, and is good looking, but it never seems to happen.

  • Trite is Might

    A man who has had a longterm relationship in the past shows the ability for emotional investment. Better him than a seriel shorttermer, even if there is some emotional residue left over.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Trite is Might

      Welcome, thanks for leaving a comment.

      A man who has had a longterm relationship in the past shows the ability for emotional investment. Better him than a seriel shorttermer, even if there is some emotional residue left over.

      Agreed. I’d be more concerned about serial monogamists, of both sexes.

  • Iggles

    @GudEnuf:

    Hearing women express their distaste in promiscuous men feels really good. When I went to Catholic school I was taught that male sexuality is just as precious as female sexuality and that a man should make sure he only gives it to the right woman. But when I got into college I was pounded by the message that only female sexuality is precious and that male sexuality is just worthless. Reading evo-psych sunk the point in further.

    But when I started to talk to actual women about this, it seems they are very possessive of male sexuality. Most women I’ve talked to want their man’s sperm all to herself. Evo-psych research seems to be catch up here too, and it seems that sexual evolution is more complicated than we thought it was. Male sexuality may be precious after all.

    Haha. I’m not sure if I’d phrase it that way, in terms of being possessive of sperm! But when it comes to my man’s body – yes, I am very possessive. As he is towards mine. I would never be okay with sharing.

    Additionally, I don’t understand the concept of “pre-selection”. I only care if my guy is desirable to me, so I don’t care if whether or not other women find him hot. The idea of fighting for a guy to “pick me” is a turn-off.

    @ Hope:

    @Ted D, I think men do not really understand how a woman’s “private parts” are important to her. I have heard of women who would rather suck a guy off than let him near her pelvic area. What is probably the case is that the act seems less intimate to her, but more intimate to the guy.

    This comment definitely gave me pause. I think you’re right, which is really mind-boggling to me. It highlights how different the same event can be view by men and women! That area is extremely important to me and I view P-in-V as the most intimate act you can do. Mainly, because of the possibly of pregnancy but there’s also a energy component to it to.

    That said, oral is rather intimate too! I wouldn’t do either with some random dude. Trust is paramount. Only after having the “define the relationship” talk would I consider crossing that threshold.

    @ Ted D:

    The actual physical act of sex leaves very little in terms of lasting effect in a physical way. But every single encounter with another human being changes your essence. The type of encounter dictates the type of change, and sex being such a primal and animalistic act IMO can and often does have a substantial impact. Now multiply that by number of partners, and what type of men they were, and you can get a pretty good idea of where a woman is spiritually, at least in terms of sexual spirit, for lack of a better term.

    I completely agree with you here. When another person is involved, I believe there’s an exchange of energy.

    Casual sex has never appealed to me because sex divorced from an emotional/spiritual connection seems empty. Sure, it’s fun physical activity, but it’s no different from taking drugs to get high — in my view, the drawbacks outweigh the upsides (i.e., possibility of pregnancy, STDs, possible regrets).

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    My only point on the SDS was that every woman can’t expect every man she dates/couples/marries to necessarily have more experience than she does. I think that’s mathematically impossible. Everyone has a comfort level, I guess. When someone gets to double digits, 2x the median for men and 3x for women, this might raise some red flags for marriage-minded people. Not sure I’d call double digits “moderate”.

    Buy you’re right (I think), for matters of the heart, it’s too bad people don’t segregate themselves by level of sexual experience. I recall reading in various discussions @HUS what kinds of things women here say are dealbreakers: guys who’ve cheated; guys who’ve slept with sex workers; guys who’ve had sex with other men; former players; partner count too high; men who’ve had sex with someone they know; etc. If women factor out male virgins and guys with low counts, who does that really leave left? Maybe there are guys walking around who perfectly embody the statistical average.

    Lastly, I’ve never met a guy who had a low partner count merely because he was still hung up on an ex. I’m sure they exist, though. The guys I’ve known were just very careful about which women they loved (in every sense of the word). But you wouldn’t know that by judging strictly on their number, I suppose.

  • Charm

    @Susan 325

    I will definitely keep believing it and keep saying it for that matter. No one silences me. I wouldn’t care if I was the only one that believed it. But I know that I’m not and any woman that believes the same gets no acknowledgement. In like how Roosh just acknowledged that not all women want Alpha. Though a lot of women in the West want Alpha or Super Alpha (per you HUS description above), a lot of women don’t. No one is really saying that. Everyone keeps saying that a woman will rationalize a way to deal with it, but what about the ones that won’t? Why does it seem so hard to believe?

    I agree that the minority shouldn’t be ignored. Even if say 6 out of 10 women wouldn’t mind or would be attracted to a man with a fairly high partner count, those left over 40% is still a fair amount. Hell even if it was 30% or 20% its enough to be relevant. I think there is definitely a male rationalization hamster on the loose. I know and you know that a good portion of girls dislike manwhores, but it seems like men (regardless of partner count) have this idea that most women wouldn’t mind it and the women that do are just huge exceptions. <—I'd be curious to know the real % of women who think that. Though, I don't think many are admitting it in our sex driven culture.

    The natural alpha that I work with has to be in the triple digits and he's in his early 20's. He's a good person, has never cheated on a gf, and doesn't lie to or "play" women, and we can be friends. He's also a good looking guy. He's taller than me, smart and we have really good conversations and are on the same page about a lot of stuff. But the fact that he sleeps around repulses me. It makes my skin crawl. I don't think about him in a sexual way, and if he ever tried to have sex with me I'd be offended.

  • anonymous

    Anacaona: ” I was witness of the slut explosion and it ate out our values in less than 2 decades, the good takes a long time to win out but the bad is as fast as speedy gonzales, thermodynamics at work.”

    Same thing happened here in the Latin-American inner cities.
    ——–
    “The issue is that for monogamy to work you need almost everyone to cooperate a small numbers of non-monogamous people can screwed it up badly in short time.”
    ++
    Shaming becomes useless.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Charm
    I wish we did have that study of how many women find a man with a high count disgusting. And know what kind of partner count they had as well. It’d be an interesting comparison and I think plenty of men would love to know a partner count that would disqualify them from the kind of woman they’re looking for in a LTR.

    Of course, I’m not sure how accurate such a study would be. Even if anonymous, I bet the hamster wheel would spin fast and hard in the lines of “Of course I wouldn’t accept a man with X amount of partner counts!” And then many would meet such a man and get swept off their feet by the tingles.

  • anonymous

    Ramble: “I have had more than one girl call me an “asshole” with a smile on her face.”

    Add that one to the slut-tell list.
    - Smiles at assholes.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Anon
    “Shaming becomes useless.”

    Only if you can’t back it up – which right now we can’t. Before sluts wouldn’t get a husband and would live life alone. Now they get to be forgiven and take in a Beta husband at the ripe age of 35

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Leap

      Now they get to be forgiven and take in a Beta husband at the ripe age of 35

      I have never seen a shred of evidence for this. Why do you believe that women hop off the alpha cock carousel and try to lock down betas? I think alpha chasers grow old trying to lock down alphas.

  • OffTheCuff

    High is not 100. High is more like double the median, since very few men get there. You all are, as usual, apexing like crazy. The amount of women who consider that level a deal-breaker is near zero.

    Kill your inner beta.

  • Jason

    “Add that one to the slut-tell list.
    – Smiles at assholes.”

    Well that’s no good lol. I was called an asshole and smiled at within 5 minutes of meeting the girl I’ve been talking about.

  • Mike C

    As for my particular situation, I would love to get a few opinions…

    A few weeks ago we got on to the conversation of past LTRs. She has had two, one of which was in college and she glossed over and said she loved him but it just fell off, he was ‘too nice’ and it wasn’t going to work (she pretty much crushed a nice beta, so nbd to me). The other one came with a fellow teacher after she moved after college for her teaching job (she is a special ed teacher).

    ……….

    Does it sound like damaged goods though? I have the potential to completely replace that damage, but it seems like a bit of a battle, knowing what I know about women. I will absolutely not commit myself to a woman who still longs for a guy in the past, as that would only lead to unfullfillment on both ends. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

    Jason,

    Hope had a great response. I completely endorse it. For the record, let me state there is no female commenter here that has a better sense of the male perspective, the way our brains work, our thought processes, and emotions. I have no idea how she got to be so insightful about men, but she is the real deal. Her point about recognizing the “present” nature of men as opposed to getting caught up in nostalgia is 110% on the mark.

    Let me try to give you some of my thoughts Jason. First and foremost, always follow your instincts. Most of the mistakes I’ve made is because I didn’t follow my instincts and instead listened to some other voice about what I was “supposed to do”. Don’t let someone like a Tom (who is really a woman) try to shame away what your instincts are telling you.

    No one here can possibly know your relationship or this woman better than you, so any specific advice is a crock of shit. My advice to you, and EVERY SINGLE GUY when thinking about a woman’s past relationship/sexual history is you have to try and figure out if you are the A guy or the B guy:

    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/the-a-guy/

    The distilled essence of the issue with high count women is the ever increasing probability that you are in fact NOT the A guy, that the A guy is some guy in her past, and you are the B guy she is settling for. The way you describe it Jason, it sounds like you are in fact the A guy, or at least another A guy (sounds like she had both an A guy and B guy)

    If you are guy, and you haven’t read Rollo’s A guy versus B guy post, go do it now. I could have linked to the post in about 50 different comments over the past week that really all tie back to whether you are the A guy or B guy

  • anonymous

    Leap of a Beta
    @ Anon
    “Shaming becomes useless.”

    Only if you can’t back it up – which right now we can’t. Before sluts wouldn’t get a husband and would live life alone. Now they get to be forgiven and take in a Beta husband at the ripe age of 35
    ————————-
    Yeah, that’s what I left out. Shaming in this SMP is useless.
    - There are plenty of sluts/cads + a ginormous number of wannabes, enough to outnumber those who aren’t.
    -There’s no accountability. Plenty of short-term rewards. Financial even if you own a web cam.
    - They think you’re just jealous of them.
    - If a slut’s shamed, she can always go hang out with the guys or with other sluts.
    - Plus, it’s antiPC to shame ANYONE for ANYTHING, especially if they’re doing something wrong.
    Oh, wait. There IS no such thing as right or wrong anymore.

    So, yeah, useless.

  • Wudang

    “What’s the science for that? I read a new report recently that after combing through all the studies, including MRIs and other observant measures, scientists have stated there is NO evidence that the g-spot exists. That is not to say there is not wide variety in the way women experience orgasm, but as of today, no specific spot with extra nerve endings.

    Same with female ejaculation – they know it’s a fluid that exits the urethra, from the bladder. There is no scientific explanation for it if it is not urine. They cannot find a way for it to be possible. So I’m very skeptical of claims like this.”

    There is no science for it. ITs the perspective from the chinese and indian medical and sexological tradition. They say there is a specific and strong connection to the heart I just infer that that means oxytocin release. It does not have the same scientific certainty as many western findings. However, those traditions are far, far, far more knowledgeable about sexuality than the western tradition. Still even. All men can learn to have multiple whole body orgasms. I know a ton of them through meditation forums and know several in person and my meditation teacher have taught it to hundreds of men. I have had them myself. Still, this has only recently come to the attention of western sexologists and only through the eastern knowledge. There are many more things in these traditions western sexology are clueless about that I have used myself or know others who use. I find it funny that a western researcher claimed to have discovered the g-spot in 1982 when in fact he could have gone to the library and found descriptions of it in a tantra book.

    As for g-spot and deep sport orgasms. I have given them myself to women. I have given deep spot orgasms to women who had no idea what I was planning to do with my fingers there and had never felt anything like it before and had not heard of any such spots being there. They definitively felt immense stimulation and a very different type of and much longer lasting orgasms than their regular ones. The a-spot or anterior fornix zone or whatever it is called was documented to give responses in 80% or so of women, even without any sexual arousal previous to the direct stimulation by a researcher in Malaysia I think it was. THe sample was a few hundred women.

    Check out David Shades stuff for good descriptions of location and technique for the deep spot/a-spot.

    The g-spot is defntively there as well, at least in a lot of women in my personal experience and in the experience of many women I have talked to.

  • Charm

    @Leap

    Lol. By all means a guy can feel free to small talk all day long. I hate doing that at restaurants. Pleasantries are a bit of a pain for me. If a man took care of the small talk part with the waitress I’d be ecstatic. Yes, I meant overt flirting. It seems stupid to me. If a man has to do that be with a woman he shouldnt be with her. Shes a silly woman.

    I don’t think its wrong to want to have power. Its human nature. All people want it to some degree. Well unless they choose to give it up, but you get my point. I personally only want to have power over myself. If I have to have “power over” a man then he can keep it movin’. Having power over other people seems like too much work. I’m too autonomous.

  • Charm

    @Anon

    Re slut shaming is useless

    Hm…I don’t think so. I just think its become a politically incorrect thing to do. It has gone underground with racism ,sexism and all the other -isms. All of which are still alive and well. Before people could do it openly and it worked, now if you do it, you’ll end up looking like the fool. Thing is, we all still know that men don’t want to marry women who’ve slept with too many men. Sure, white knights are saying otherwise, and some people believe it, and yet there are still women out there afraid to give their numbers. I ask them…Why is that? They’re obviously afraid of something, no?

    Sure they can keep pulling the “you’re just jealous” card but they know where they stand. They know it. Just like as a black woman I’ve felt the racism and sexism even if it is politically incorrect. I know it still exists. This is why sluts have to keep pumping themselves up and saying “it doesn’t matter” over and over and over and over again.

    I’m not into shaming per se though. I just don’t agree with it but I believe women should be allowed to sleep with or suck off whoever they want when they want. They do not however, have the right to tell other people they need to accept it. No, a man can still hit the NEXT button honey.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Thank you Mike C! I try to listen to people when they talk, and try to remember what they say. I also try to understand people from their perspective, take a walk in their shoes so to speak. It makes me happy to know that I’m actually gaining some understanding.

  • Charm

    @Leap 361

    Lol. They’d have to devise a plan to trick the right answer out of them. Self-reporting that would obviously be a lie. I’m not a researcher so I couldn’t imagine how to come up with a study to accurately solicit honest answers. Someone should look into it.

  • Wudang

    “Which coincides with reports that Dark Triad males are hitting it out of the park. People assume that such men wear their narcissism on their sleeve, but it’s not true. They can feign empathy and caring very, very well in the beginning. That’s what women are attracted to, not guys who actually going around acting like total dicks.”

    Thats ONE dark triad strategy and I have come across a couple of dark triaders like that in my life. The type that is very good at playing nice. By being in contact with some somewhat rough groups in my teens and through a lot of bar hoping, clubbing and after parties in my twenties I have met A LOT of men that have clear strong dark triad traits and do not play nice at all. I can see them from across the room easily and so can/could everyone else if they really thought about it. Those guys cleaned up with women big time and they rarely had to put on a nice facade.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang

      I can see them from across the room easily and so can/could everyone else if they really thought about it. Those guys cleaned up with women big time and they rarely had to put on a nice facade.

      And I know many young women who have said “fuck you” to jerks who said, “you can blow me if you want, bitch.” As I said earlier, though, handsome jerks do better than ugly ones.

      I’m curious, which trait do you think is catnip for women:

      1. Narcissism: extreme selfishness and lack of empathy

      2. Marchiavellianism: cunning and duplicity

      3. Psychopathy: mental illness or disorder; antisocial personality disorder

      Let’s not romanticize Dark Triad. It’s called Dark for a reason.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Charm
    Ok. Wanted to check simply because of the women you’re probably the most outspoken and vehemently denying of any hypergamous tendencies in yourself. Many of the other women here are lower on the hypergamy scale, they’re just not as….. aggressive, about it as you are.

    As for the study, I think you’d just have to find a way to get the hamster to work for you. We all know women are the best are fooling themselves, right!?

  • Half Canadian

    Just because I’m a stickler for details (and I work with surveys), but that isn’t a response rate, that’s responses.
    A rate can only be obtained if you know how many people were invited to respond. I’m assuming his readership is > 1,000.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Half Canadian

      Re the response rate, you’re right. I was estimating in my head because I know Vox’s traffic. He got a high rate of response by traditional marketing standards.

  • Mike C

    Of course, I’m not sure how accurate such a study would be. Even if anonymous, I bet the hamster wheel would spin fast and hard in the lines of “Of course I wouldn’t accept a man with X amount of partner counts!” And then many would meet such a man and get swept off their feet by the tingles.

    I could make my own argument, but I’m lazy and he is probably smarter than me anyways so I’ll just link here:

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2012/02/ego-and-n.html

    “There are four reasons. First, women are notoriously bad at understanding and communicating why they do what they do. Second, because women very much like sexually experienced men, so much so that they observably harbor a vast preference to them over sexually inexperienced men. Women outright mock men who “can’t get laid”, they regularly resort to it even in cases where it manifestly doesn’t apply. If a woman is calling a man “a slut” or some similar term, she is usually revealing jealousy and her own willingness to have sex with him.

    Third, it isn’t true. Any veteran player with strong Game can easily seduce a woman who vows up and down that she isn’t attracted to the amusingly mislabled “man-slut”, so long as she isn’t religious, in which case she will present a more serious challenge. Note that I didn’t only say such a man can do so, but that he can easily do so, and in many cases, probably has on more than one occasion.

    …….

    Women can snowflake all they like, of course, but they’re never going to convince anyone who has seen numerous women declaring that they could never be attracted to a “man-whore” eventually succumbing to the charms of a skilled player. Women often tend to forget that because sex with SMV peers and even SMV superiors is always on offer to them, this is absolutely not true of men. That is why the slut with 30+ notches is seldom in any way comparable in terms of desirability to the opposite sex as the player with 60+.

    Or, to put it in simpler terms, one can simply refer to the old bad lock vs master key analogy.

  • Jason

    @Mike C

    I think you hit the nail right on the head with my line of reasoning. It’s not so much the actual number, as it is the A/B paradigm; and I will never ever be content with being the B guy, and I would walk away at the first hint of that. The last guy, whom she still sees around, was her A guy up to that point, and now the onus is on me to claim that spot. I’m confident in my credentials and keen to these things, so I can honestly say that I am well on my way to doing this, and that I have the ability to completely do this, although it’s hard to ever say with 100% certainty.

    Also, this brings into question just how ‘alpha’ I always need to be, which frankly, can be tiring at times. While I am very much natural, with a few tweaks from Game here and there, I don’t think many men can hold that persona at all times no matter what. And if they can, by showing almost no vulnerability, I would think they border on the line of being a sociopath.

    Just more things to figure out is all. At least it’s entertaining to talk about.

  • Butterfly Flower

    Is it just me or does Butterfly Flower have a serious vendetta against the Catholic Church? Her post just flashes disdain. Must be her Japanese blood. Japanese people are sometimes considered the most secular the world over. Last time I heard Japanese people have weird sexual fetishes as well (but I don’t think Butterfly Flower has that)

    I was pointing out the [rather ironic] fact that my classmates in my religious school, were less than chaste. We weren’t taught sex-ed, but that didn’t stop students from hooking-up. It has nothing to do with disdain with the RCC, it has to do with my actual high school experience. There’s even studies that correlate “abstinence only” education with higher rates of oral sex.

    & I wasn’t aware that your faith condones offensive racist statements. Oh well, we learn something new everyday.

  • Mike C

    I think you hit the nail right on the head with my line of reasoning. It’s not so much the actual number, as it is the A/B paradigm; and I will never ever be content with being the B guy, and I would walk away at the first hint of that.

    I think this is the universal male concern that underlies every specific item in question. No guy wants to be a woman’s B guy, and certainly no guy except for the most pathetic want to invest their emotional and financial resources along with their devotion and commitment in a woman who sees him as the B guy.

    A few threads back we had this intense debate on fantasizing. I actually didn’t have a big problem with it but Jesus Mahoney was totally against it, and I think it is because it implies the fantasy is the A guy while the real life guy is the B guy. The issue of “wating for sex” is the exact same dynamic. If a girl fucks some hot stud the same night she meets him, but makes another guy “properly court” her the clear implication is the former is the A guy, and the latter is the B guy.

    Also, this brings into question just how ‘alpha’ I always need to be, which frankly, can be tiring at times. While I am very much natural, with a few tweaks from Game here and there, I don’t think many men can hold that persona at all times no matter what. And if they can, by showing almost no vulnerability, I would think they border on the line of being a sociopath.

    I hear ya. I think the key is to be with a woman whose level of hypergamy/alpha dominance matches what you can realistically make congruent. I’ve never felt I wasn’t alpha enough for my GF. I’m sure there are other women where I’d feel the need to put on more of an act to match their required alpha level. No thanks. I think if you are talking booty calls, or short-term casual you can temporarily up it to a level beyond what you could sustain, but not in a LTR especially when you are living together.

    You sound like a really high value guy so I guess at the end of the day my main advice to you would be not to sell yourself short. If there is one thing I could tell my 24 year old self is to make him understand the value he had. That said, the mistakes I made got me where I am today so I do believe it was all meant to play out the way it did.

  • Sassy6519

    I guess we men better start being specific when we discuss prior sexual history with our women. Seems like they are using “new math” to fudge their numbers.

    If there was so much as a hand job, I expect it to be in the tally. Good thing for me I’ve always been clear on what I consider sexual activity I guess.

    Wait, handjobs count too?

    That just promptly threw me out of the “good girl” pile. Crap.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Sassy,
    There’s a pile of good girls!? Crap, where is it. How did you find so many and figure out how to stack them up? I haven’t been able to find a good girl that takes direction or will listen to me.

    Also, is this pile like a ballpit that I can jump in and play with? I might even play nicely.

  • Charm

    @Leap 374

    I don’t want to say I am completely devoid of hypergamous behavior, but like Susan mentioned, its a scale. The things that I like aren’t always as apparent as other things that people are attracted to. But I will say, the thing that I do like is confidence. I’ve said it on badgers blog that I like quiet confidence. I’m not a fan of “guy in the middle of the room”. I’d ignore that guy and look for someone away from the center. Thats where the best people hide. I have a knack for finding some diamonds, especially when it comes to friendship.

    I honestly don’t know why my hamster doesn’t spin. I’ve actually been thinking a lot about it. I think it has something to do with the fact that I prefer to stay to myself. I’m not particularly introverted, or a homebody or anything, but I prefer to have a few close friends, but mostly stay in my own world.

    Like I’ve mentioned before, culture and society has a lot to do with the spinning of the hamster. I think it impacts a lot of women very differently. The climate of the last 50 years has sent American womens hamsters into overdrive. I just prefer to go at my own pace. I don’t sleep around not because I’d feel ashamed, but because I just don’t want to. Its not who I am. Nor do I use men for dates, attention or money. Again, because I don’t want to. Its not who I am.

    It used to be that culture and social rules kept people in line. Now theyve all been done away with, so women are following their primal instincts. My vagina doesn’t dictate my behavior. Feminism can keep telling women to sleep around as they wish, and women can keep saying “You can do better Grrrrll” to each other, and chasing Alphas like hell, but I’m not gonna ascribe to it. This shit doesn’t influence what I do. Why? Because its not who I am.

    I got called an outlier by someone on another blog. I don’t think my behaviors odd. I think I have a lot of sense.

    Plus I like hanging out with guys as opposed to girls, so the next time some guy asks me how to get a woman I want to be to give him some advice rather than say: “Just be yourself”. HUS and blogs like it intrigue me. I enjoy learning about peoples behavior.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    Wait, handjobs count too?

    They don’t count. But idk, ask most guys which they’d think is closer to “good”: a. the girl who’s slept with 5 guys, 3 casually; or b. the girl who’s never slept with anybody, but has given hand jobs to 20 different guys, only 5 of home she was in a relationship with.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike C,

    A few threads back we had this intense debate on fantasizing. I actually didn’t have a big problem with it but Jesus Mahoney was totally against it, and I think it is because it implies the fantasy is the A guy while the real life guy is the B guy.

    Exactly.

  • Ramble

    @anonymous 362

    Add that one to the slut-tell list.
    – Smiles at assholes.

    Whether or not that is a genuine sign of sluttiness, I can tell you that at least one of my previous girlfriends was as old fashioned as they come.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Yes, that’s what happened to Jesus Mahoney. He got wind of this during a brunch with old college friends, and wound up ending his engagement. It was close enough to the date that deposits were forfeited, etc. When he first came here in the spring, his mind was reeling over that.

    Ugh. Poor guy when he finds out. And poor girl. Does she read the site? Does she know what happened with me?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ugh. Poor guy when he finds out. And poor girl. Does she read the site? Does she know what happened with me?

      She used to comment occasionally, but she fell out with some of the other women in the focus group and doesn’t come around any more. I’ve heard they’re very serious though, intending to marry. It nearly came out when he came to a party and called her old roommate a slut – and the roommate’s number is around 10, I think. She just about exploded. The lying is really bad – it’s a terrible foundation for a relationship, much less marriage.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    I hope he told her the real reason (privately, politely, but truthfully).

    I wish I could say I was polite. 2 out of 3 isn’t bad, though.

  • Sassy6519

    @ LeapofaBeta

    You can find a pile of good girls stacked on top of each other in front of any Barnes & Noble or Planned Parenthood. Take your pick. Also, yes, the piles are like ball crawls.

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    I couldn’t imagine giving handjobs to 20 different guys, yet not sleeping with a single one of them. That girl would be a world class tease. Including handjobs though, my overall number would be 9. It’s important to note that my definition of a handjob is any hand to genital contact whatsoever. The guy doesn’t have to get off. If my hand has come in contact with his genitals, even for a moment, I’ve counted it in that number.

    Let the crucifixion begin.

  • Ramble

    Escoffier,

    I realize it was painful, but it beats the alternative and so many men would have felt that THEY had the problem and bludgeoned themselves into going through with it.

    Great point. It is good that we are finally starting to here this, to whatever small degree, from more people.

    And, on that note…

    First and foremost, always follow your instincts. Most of the mistakes I’ve made is because I didn’t follow my instincts and instead listened to some other voice about what I was “supposed to do”. Don’t let someone try to shame away what your instincts are telling you.

    +1

    Mike C,
    Again, a very simple, but important point that is rarely communicated to young men.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    “Also, yes, the piles are like ball crawls.”

    They let anyone in to play and may contain needles?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    Personally I think it is all kind of childish to worry about what your prospective mate did before they even knew you (and your expectations) were even alive.

    While extended worry–inaction, indecision, Hamlet’s problem: conscious making cowards of us–is never a good idea, or at least a healthy idea, or at the very least a productive idea… closing one’s eyes the past, sleeping with a chance of dreaming, with or without a rub, does not seem a viable alternative.

    One has to find a way to come to terms with such a past. And either move forward in the relationship with confidence, or else GTFO.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    No crucifixions–the Romans nailed up the cross maker. Btw, even having grown up Catholic, I’ve never gotten used to the sight of a man walking around town looking for all the world like someone used his forehead to stub out a cigarette.

  • Glasses

    Jason, you’ve already fallen for the girl. You wouldn’t be talking so much about a girl you didn’t care about. Sounds like you’re trying to protect yourself from future heartache. Guess what, you’re already in the heartache territory (i.e., if she dumped you right now, you would hurt like hell still), so it doesn’t matter if a breakup happens two weeks from now or a year from now. If she dumps you, you’ll be hurting, period. Now, I understand that your real question is “how likely is she to dump me at some point”? I hope you understand that this question is ridiculous. Because who can answer it? Especially, among strangers on the web. Gee, listen to all of them: her number’s too high, she sounds reluctant, if she loves you, keep her, blah-blah-blah. I think the answer is actually pretty simple: if YOU love her, keep her, especially since she’s not going anywhere, so that should be easy. And own your decision. Don’t waste your time and energy on what other people think about it. They don’t live your life, you do. And you want to live your life fully, not half ass it, right? Actually, read this for inspiration (the last paragraph should tell you everything): http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/12/22/magazine/the-lives-they-lived.html#view=uneasy_rider. Good luck.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Glasses,

    That was a great story. Thanks for the link.

    Jason loves her, yea, but he’s gotta be able to live with her and if her past is going to eat away at him, then it isn’t fair to either of them.

    On the other hand, if he’s cool with it, then it’s all good in the hood.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I know this is a delayed reaction, but I just wanted to point out that we have yet another definition or criterion or whatever for “alpha”: 15+ women.

    I wonder if this holds for men who’ve approached 2,000 women and only managed to have sex with 15 of them… and if 13 of the 15 rode Harleys and could beat them in an arm wrestle…. and borrowed their toothbrush AND razor in the morning.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Glasses, as much as I’d like to believe love conquers all, I have seen too many relationships and marriages fail to give full speed ahead advice. :{

    When my husband and I were reeling from my miscarriage, we knew another married couple that was dealing with the same thing. They have a young daughter under 2 and seemed at least amicable with each other. Now half a year later it’s looking like inevitable divorce, the wife had an affair with his friend, and this poor little baby girl will grow up in another broken home.

    I sound like I deal with the abstract a lot of times, and maybe live in a lala land of love and optimism. But I’ve seen how it can all go so wrong. The wife in this case married very young and probably didn’t have a high partner count, but she is psychologically immature and was not ready for a lifetime commitment. I’ve talked to the guy and tried to give him a crash course on the red pill, but he told me it’s too late. He once loved her, yes, but here they are.

    He made the money while she was a stay-at-home mother. Now she sleeps in a separate bedroom. He is depressed and self-medicates by drinking. It’s up to the state law and her good will whether or not he’ll have to pay a lot financially. That is modern divorce. Jason is likely going to be making more money than this girl if she’s a special ed teacher, and he’s got the elite university education and working his tail off at a high-flying job. Is she of enough moral fiber that she won’t be fleecing him in divorce court?

    I wasn’t really inspired by the HIV story either. It was depressing! These people could have had such full, lovely lives. Instead they made horrible choices. It’s nice that they’re making the best of it, but it’s like the husband of that couple we know — he’ll be trying to make the best of his situation, but it’s still sucky. You can’t tell me that their daughter doesn’t deserve an in tact family with mommy and daddy together and happy. She’ll be a victim of other people’s choices.

  • Desiderius

    “It’s not exactly unheard of, given that Augustine of Hippo described the concept in his Confessions back in the year 398.”

    See also.

    Or.

    He was banging the King’s mistress, of all people, before settling down to be an historically fine husband and father.

  • Glasses

    Hope, no disrespect, but… whatever. :) I said what I wanted, you say what you want, Jason will do what he wants. End of discussion.

  • Desiderius

    “Self-described religious Alphas with counts of 15-30 were pro-marriage. I agree with Vox that these men represent real catches – they’ve achieved significant success with women, but still hold to traditional values.”

    I’m in that category, and now that I’ve torn myself away from the interwebs I am finding high demand in the MMP.

    “Of course, if a woman is not religious, she is probably not interested in marrying a religious man regardless of his partner count.”

    Well, women are the ones who invented religion in the first place and have perpetuated it down through the ages (although as christiankp notes, they often like to let men pretend to be in charge – the hand that rocks the cradle still rules the world). Non-religious women who nonetheless want children might want to investigate why this has been so.

  • Desiderius

    Glasses,

    “Hope, no disrespect, but… whatever. :) I said what I wanted, you say what you want, Jason will do what he wants. End of discussion.”

    Men don’t make passes at women who are that dominant.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    “Unfortunately, I think that’s traditionally what the thought has been…. Get the experience with the ‘low class’ women.”

    Sorry, I missed your point earlier. Curious… how does sleeping with so-called low class women not make a man low class himself? I just don’t see how that kind of experience helps in an actual (hopefully high quality) relationship.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega,

    Sorry, I missed your point earlier. Curious… how does sleeping with so-called low class women not make a man low class himself? I just don’t see how that kind of experience helps in an actual (hopefully high quality) relationship.

    I have no idea, bro. You should ask someone who thinks that men are supposed to get experience with low class women.

  • SayWhaat

    Should a woman add to her number if a guy goes down on her and she doesn’t reciprocate? Does a guy count that as a “conquest?”

    I would just like to note, to great amusement, that no man here has answered this question.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Though Mega…. Your logic would make women who sleep with ass hat frat boys or freelance ass hats just as bad as the ass hats themselves.

    Which I believe, btw.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue and Saywhaat,

    Oral sex, either way, “counts.” And no, a guy doesn’t count it as a “conquest” if he goes down and doesn’t get reciprocated. At least no guy I know of would. But they’d add it to their number.

  • Glasses

    Hope, also, I think you missed the whole point of the HIV story.

    Desiderius, what do you know about me apart from a couple of comments? Nothing. So, it’s entirely possible that you’re wrong in your judgement, right? Right. :)

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    Got it. I thought Susan suggested something like that, but I could be wrong. The idea of using (and losing) someone just to get experience seems a little seedy. I’ve known a couple of women over the years who actually described their BFs as “temporary”.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega,

    I’ve been down the whole casual path, so I feel kind of hypocritical judging, but yea, it doesn’t strike me as ideal.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    It sort of drove me crazy to watch Mr. HUS go for Penn undergrads before we got together, and it definitely made me want him more.

    Woot, go Mr. HUS.

  • Desiderius

    “Desiderius, what do you know about me apart from a couple of comments? Nothing. So, it’s entirely possible that you’re wrong in your judgement, right? Right.”

    I’ve been wrong on a lot of them, but not this one.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike C,

    I realize these aren’t your words, but you quoted them:

    Women outright mock men who “can’t get laid”, they regularly resort to it even in cases where it manifestly doesn’t apply.

    I think that this is the case with trashy women, but not women as a whole. In fact, I think that we can make it a general rule that if a woman mocks men who “can’t get laid,” she’s probably a trashy slut. Or, at the very least, not the type a man would want a relationship with.

    I don’t say this in an attempt to defend women, because I’m pretty much throwing any woman who DOES say this under the bus. I just don’t think it applies to women generally.

  • Desiderius

    “Should a woman add to her number if a guy goes down on her and she doesn’t reciprocate? Does a guy count that as a “conquest?”

    I would just like to note, to great amusement, that no man here has answered this question.”

    I’ll answer it. Sure as hell doesn’t count. Was just reminded first-hand that this is in fact a big turn-off for women and something that no self-respecting man should do until things are very far along in a relationship.

    The Roisster specifically warns against it, and for good reason.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    something that no self-respecting man should do until things are very far along in a relationship.

    There’s no need to go there even far along in the relationship….

  • Glasses

    “I’ve been wrong on a lot of them, but not this one.”

    Yeah, it’s easy to say that on the web, as there’s no way to prove you wrong. And I’m not going to. But you’re wrong. :)

  • Desiderius

    Escoffier,

    “Right, S, it’s hard to escape the conclusion that you are saying a high-count man is inherently worth more than a low(er) count man.”

    Some-count does beat no-count, unless there is a whole lot of proof that he coulda if he wantedta.

  • Desiderius

    Glasses,

    I’ve seen how you’ve treated our host.

    Not interested.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Glasses, I think the guy is telling a very sweet and touching story. I have respect for the guy. He really loved her, he was committed to her, and he took care of her. But something about the girl bothers me. I see his love for her, not her love for him.

    Maybe it’s this line: “women, it’s never enough for them.” My husband, as he is, is more than enough for me.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    “I just don’t think 15-30 partners in 20 years is that off the charts.”

    Not rare, for sure. Maybe uncommon compared to the average guy. This probably represents about 25% of men between the ages of 20 and 40 today. I guess the real question at the heart of Mr. Day’s post is, what are a woman’s chances of finding a quality marriage partner in that pool. Swimming in the deep end may involve some unknown risk factors, STDs and children with other women being the obvious ones : |

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      I guess the real question at the heart of Mr. Day’s post is, what are a woman’s chances of finding a quality marriage partner in that pool. Swimming in the deep end may involve some unknown risk factors, STDs and children with other women being the obvious ones : |

      Yup, for sure. Players are high risk in a number of ways. I wouldn’t want one for a SIL. Alphas made better dads when they had fewer opportunities to indulge their base instincts. I agree with others who say that sex changes a person, every single time, and the effect is cumulative.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega,

    It’s none of my business, so don’t feel like you have to respond, but is your wife your first? Have you ever discussed numbers? And if so, are your histories similar?

    The reason I ask is that you seem to have a strong dislike for “players”, “PUAs”, and men who have been “successful” with women in terms of sex. That’s not a criticism, and I’m not looking to defend or attack anybody, it’s just something I’ve always wondered about you.

  • Glasses

    Hey, Desiderius, you’re totally negging me. Doesn’t that qualify as a pass? Hahaha. Yeah, the host rubs me in the wrong way sometimes, yes. I’ve left appreciative comments too though. You haven’t seen them. So you just think what you want to think. Hamster, much? :)

  • Ramble

    Susan, I am not sure that we are addressing the same point. I was specifically responding to this:

    They can feign empathy and caring very, very well in the beginning. That’s what women are attracted to, not guys who actually going around acting like total dicks.

    You are saying that the girls who go for the Dark Triads are actually falling for their success at feigning empathy, and not for their Darker traits (unless I am misreading you).

    And, I am saying, “No, they are falling for the Dark Triad traits”. I am not saying that they never appreciate the softer side, when it is shown by those “bad boys”. Again, it might just melt their hearts. But it is the bad behaviour from those bad boys that is getting them laid.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      You are saying that the girls who go for the Dark Triads are actually falling for their success at feigning empathy, and not for their Darker traits (unless I am misreading you).

      I wasn’t saying that empathy alone is an attraction trigger. I’m saying that narcissists appear charming, and caring, and delighted to be in your presence. They’re not “bad boys” in the traditional sense. Many of them fly under the radar and appear to be all-around good guys, especially to their guy friends. Their narcissism is revealed in the way they use and dispose of people, and that’s long after attraction initially occurred.

      I don’t know any woman who is attracted by cunning and deceit, or by antisocial personality disorder, a mental illness. Again, I believe that you’re exaggerating the charm of these traits.

      When a woman smiles, punches your arm and calls you asshole, it is most likely that you just negged her successfully, not that you are a psychopath.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Does the host rubbing someone the wrong way constitute sexual harassment?

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Flavia
    Total disagreement I rather have a man with always LTR, or none that any cadish past. I mean how do you know he can love you and relationship with you if the only experiences he has in the past were low investment? Unless he is a virgin something in him is not working. I think that is also part of the fantasy of “He never treated a woman right till he meet me” I rather have someone that is whether a virgin so me being the first explains his lack of experience or someone that I know for sure doesn’t treat women like tissue paper, YMMV.

    Did you read the wombchoice nutcase page Ana?
    Sadly I did…Crazy smart people are really dangerous.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ramble,

    It’s the whole “flipping the bad boy” fantasy that apparently makes women weak in the knees.

  • SayWhaat

    Sure as hell doesn’t count. Was just reminded first-hand that this is in fact a big turn-off for women and something that no self-respecting man should do until things are very far along in a relationship.

    With all due respect, Desiderius, this is one of the most absurd things I’ve heard on these threads. I have NEVER seen this play out among my peer group, where the girl is turned off by a guy going down on her. (Granted, these were guys that were friends-soon-to-be-boyfriends, or guys they had gotten to know over some period of time, but still.) Especially if he makes her orgasm? That reasoning is just so…so wrong-headed. I’m sorry if that was your experience!

  • Glasses

    Hope, but she ironed his shirts even though she was very unwell! Anyways, I think whether she loved him or not is sort of irrelevant to the story (though of course she did). He loved her, and it made him a better person, and that’s what’s important here. The fact that you love your husband differently doesn’t mean that she didn’t love him. Thanks for not sulking at me for my previous comments, by the way. :)

  • SayWhaat

    Not rare, for sure. Maybe uncommon compared to the average guy. This probably represents about 25% of men between the ages of 20 and 40 today.

    I’d wager it’s actually 50%.

    At any rate, Susan’s comments about beta guys easily getting 15+ counts echoes what I have been saying since I first started commenting here. Beta guys are cleaning up well in college hook-up culture. I’ve never met a guy who couldn’t snag a ONS, and there were nutbags and weirdos aplenty at my college, believe me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Saywhaat,

    I don’t know how a girl would react to it, but I would feel a bit of pity for a guy who’s going down without getting at least the same in return. I would send him to my Sicilian grandma so she could grab him by the shoulders with those big meaty paws (well suited for ripping loaves of semolina bread and kneading chop meat), shake him, look him in the eye, and say, “what are you-ah, stoonad-ah?” and then throw him back into her plastic-covered couch and tell him how to be a man.

    I’m making that up. She’s never done that for me.

  • SayWhaat

    I don’t know how a girl would react to it, but I would feel a bit of pity for a guy who’s going down without getting at least the same in return.

    Lol. Unfortunately in this matter, it doesn’t matter how you feel, does it? :P

    Totally figured you for Italian-American, btw.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    She is. It wasn’t an issue for her. We discussed everything before doing the deed. She’s a little ahead of me in the count, but not by very much. That wasn’t an issue for me, either.

    I’ve probably observed really bad behavior IRL from guys you’d call players that’s coloured my opinion. It was mainly directed at close (platonic) female friends. When “success” requires deception, I tend to lose respect pretty quickly.

    I think I read in another discussion you mention that I sounded like your earlier self? Given your current evolved state, I’m not sure if that’s a compliment or not : )

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’m half Italian. My dad’s side is Irish, but I grew up around my mother’s family.

  • Desiderius

    Saywhaat,

    “Granted, these were guys that were friends-soon-to-be-boyfriends, or guys they had gotten to know over some period of time, but still.)”

    This is the important piece. Bad idea if that isn’t yet the dynamic. Even then, big risk of try-hard. Better to keep things mutual.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega,

    I agree about losing respect for people who use deception to get a woman into bed. Or who use deception to cheat people of anything for that matter.

    And I didn’t mean the comparison to be unflattering. I just meant that I was a decent, but inexperienced, guy. Though in my case, I had a lot of unresolved issues I needed to work through.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Susan

    I agree that they stay single as they chase Alphas. Yet betas are still shamed for it and so are Alphas. That comment was more in response to all the ‘Man up you Peter Pan boys” articles that go around and that type of man shaming while they go around chasing alphas. Its damaging to the whole system and just adds to all men’s frustration.

    Anyways, off to a late night at the theatre, figured I’d toss that out there in response real fast.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Leap,

    What production is your theatre working on?

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “First, the guys here in their late 30s or early 40s have been out of the SMP for some time.”

    Roissy chuckles.

    He’s not alone.

    Speaking of Austen, just saw an outstanding production of this:

    http://www.cincyshakes.com/

    You’ll recall the happy ending?

    I’m shooting older as I’m very much in the MMP, but I can report that the interest in the SMP on the young end is not negligible, even at my advanced age. As for the MMP, if the right one came along…

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    Well, I’m not inexperienced anymore. And I think a bit older than you. Hopefully you resolved some of those issues. I had a few of my own, but probably not the same kind. For me, success isn’t # of women, but # of years with one in particular (8 and counting).

  • SayWhaat

    This is the important piece. Bad idea if that isn’t yet the dynamic. Even then, big risk of try-hard. Better to keep things mutual.

    Of course. If it’s a first-time hookup, I can’t think of many girls who would be willing to let a near stranger go down there.

    BUT. These were guys who had not yet DTR’d. If she’s gotten to know him for a while but holds off on sex for whatever reason, is he still a “chump” for going down on her? Does it still add to her number? His?

    I’m interested in answers to these questions but I think the discussion is largely academic. For my peer group, sex = P in V. The number does not include oral when asked, and that is understood by both parties. End of story.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega,

    How old? I’m 28. I’m guessing if you’ve been with your wife 8 years, you probably have a few years on me at least.

    For me, success means living authentically. It’s something I had to get before being in a healthy relationship.

  • SayWhaat

    JM, out of curiosity, how old are you?

  • SayWhaat

    Never mind. Lol.

  • Desiderius

    “Let’s not romanticize Dark Triad. It’s called Dark for a reason.”

    Agreed. But as you note, we’re swimming against the tide:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/why-women-really-do-love-selfobsessed-psychopaths-850007.html

    My guess as to the dynamic is that the generations of women following the female “greatest generation” of first-wave/equality feminists in their natural drive to follow their own course have gotten into some pretty dark places. Not unlike the generations of men following the widely acknowledged Greatest Generation of WWII vets.

    The anxiety of influence is a bear.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      Dr Jonason said those with the highest rating in terms of the dark triad tended to have more partners and a greater desire for short-term affairs.

      Chicken or egg? Dark Triad types are sexually aggressive, and push for ONSs. They avoid dating and relationships.

      Also, the study sample was 200 college guys. How many could possibly have qualified as full-blown Dark Triad? They looked at the guys who tended to score higher on those measures. So…the higher scores on the NPI are self-confident guys. Players are naturally practiced at deception. I think it’s likely these were just high SMV guys!

  • SayWhaat

    Desi,

    “First, the guys here in their late 30s or early 40s have been out of the SMP for some time.”

    Roissy chuckles.

    He’s not alone.

    I think what Susan means by that is that by token of your advanced age, you are unfamiliar with the dynamics that drive the current SMP. You may be in the MMP and you may be on the receiving end of interest from those in the SMP, but you cannot be very familiar with the operation and social norms of the modern SMP.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SayWhaat
    “I’d wager it’s actually 50%.”

    Well, unless men all over the country are lying down their number (as women are often accused of doing), it’s about 25%.

    Of course, if you’re in NYC it could be that high. That’s the environment at work.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    SayWhaat,

    Yea, I’m 28. Apparently too old to spend a day skateboarding and an evening having sex without laying in bed feeling like I need to start hitting the gym more.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Plus, it’s antiPC to shame ANYONE for ANYTHING, especially if they’re doing something wrong.

    So true. The only shaming left are virgin shaming, specially for religious reasons, big families shaming, specially for religious reasons and marry young shaming specially for religious reasons…do you see a theme here?

    Like I’ve mentioned before, culture and society has a lot to do with the spinning of the hamster.

    I think a lot of game is based on feeding a woman’s hamster better than she can feed it herself. I often consider that the only reason I have low hypergamy is that I already have more than enough drama in my head and no man trying to feed me drama can match it, no to mention there is nothing I hate the most that not knowing the ending dark triads feed you just enough to keep you guessing as to keep your mind focused on then for as long as they want to. That would drive me insane. My idea of hell is an infinite library full of novels were all of them have the last page missing.DO.NO.WANT!

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ana,

    You should try Italo Calvino’s If on a Winter’s Night a Traveler. One novel made up of 10 “first” chapters….

  • anonymous

    anonymous 362: “Add that one to the slut-tell list.
    – Smiles at assholes. ”

    Ramble: ” Whether or not that is a genuine sign of sluttiness, I can tell you that at least one of my previous girlfriends was as old fashioned as they come.”
    ———–
    I was kinda kidding, not knowing for sure if you were ACTUALLY acting like a jerk or not. If you were and the girl smiles… she’s weird. I’d never call someone that while smiling.
    There are many times when what gets defined as “asshole” around here is simply friendly banter. So, it’s possible that because of my previous post, you’re labeling ME as an “asshole” right this minute.
    Pfft. I just hope you’re smiling while you’re thinking it! :-)

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    Yeah, I was born right between Annie Hall/Star Wars and Manhattan/Moonraker. Full head of hair still, and no grey yet (some of my pals aren’t so lucky). I can’t imagine going through what you did with the ex. And I’ve had some doozies of my own that I wouldn’t wish on anyone else.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Glasses, I am far too preoccupied by other things to sulk. ;)

    But yes, love can make better people of all of us. I just worry that some people might become disillusioned by failed relationships.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    You should try Italo Calvino’s If on a Winter’s Night a Traveler. One novel made up of 10 “first” chapters….

    ???? I though you liked me? :(

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega,

    The whole fiasco that ended things with my ex… wasn’t just some unlucky thing. I wasn’t in a good place to make any serious relationship decisions. I was naive; I felt “lucky” just to have a relationship with a pretty woman; and I believed what I wanted to believe about her instead of basing my opinions of her on what was before me. So I was pretty much in denial. At least until denial was no longer possible. But the whole thing had its roots in who I was (or made to believe I was) since I was a child. I guess my point is that it was ultimately a doozy of my own doing.

    One of the reasons I can empathize with PUAs, “players,” etc… is that my experiences with “game,” while not something I want to make a lifestyle of, really did help me… not so much to “discover” myself, but to be more comfortable with who I am as a man, especially when it comes to women. Overall, I’d say it’s been a positive experience.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    She used to comment occasionally, but she fell out with some of the other women in the focus group and doesn’t come around any more. I’ve heard they’re very serious though, intending to marry. It nearly came out when he came to a party and called her old roommate a slut – and the roommate’s number is around 10, I think. She just about exploded. The lying is really bad – it’s a terrible foundation for a relationship, much less marriage.

    Some people make of masochism an art form.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    ??? I though you liked me? :(

    It’s actually my favorite novel. It’s incredible the way he pulls it off.

  • Desiderius

    Say,

    “I think what Susan means by that is that by token of your advanced age, you are unfamiliar with the dynamics that drive the current SMP. You may be in the MMP and you may be on the receiving end of interest from those in the SMP, but you cannot be very familiar with the operation and social norms of the modern SMP.”

    I will admit that there are others more familiar, primarily because I’m not interested in casual sex, but among those that are, there are a considerable number in the late 30s on the male side, I can report with some confidence. Younger women do seem to be wising up however, if that is any consolation.

    “Of course. If it’s a first-time hookup, I can’t think of many girls who would be willing to let a near stranger go down there.”

    I don’t do ONS. I was attempting to go slow on my end to build an emotional connection before my alpha “Next!” hormones kicked in, but as is all too common, she was reticent about emotional escalation, and I was fond of her, so I gave into temptation and went down there, maybe in hopes that would spark some emotion on her end. It did not.

    “BUT. These were guys who had not yet DTR’d. If she’s gotten to know him for a while but holds off on sex for whatever reason, is he still a “chump” for going down on her? Does it still add to her number? His?

    I’m interested in answers to these questions but I think the discussion is largely academic. For my peer group, sex = P in V. The number does not include oral when asked, and that is understood by both parties. End of story.”

    Oral is a way for a woman to keep her number down, but that sort of misses the point. What matters is not her number but what sort of man she’s been with, oral or P in V.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    Yeah, I really can’t relate to the casual angle and finding oneself that way. I was pretty comfortable with myself when single, but just had a hard time meeting women who liked what they saw, and vice versa : |

    I’ve seen a few guys go down the player path. The question that always popped into my head, and I’ve heard women ask this too, was: now that he views women as disposable to some degree, how can he believably commit if he does meet someone special? Ease of entry/ease of exit, on an emotional level so to speak.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Oral is a way for a woman to keep her number down, but that sort of misses the point. What matters is not her number but what sort of man she’s been with, oral or P in V.

    Plus, let’s face it, the girl who says, “you can go down on me,” is the same as the guy who says, “yea, you can blow me.”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega,

    That’s a fair question. The answer is that at a certain point, I think it becomes less likely. Which is one of the reasons I stopped pursuing it.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    I’m glad you did FWIW. Ignorance is bliss in my case.

  • SayWhaat

    Plus, let’s face it, the girl who says, “you can go down on me,” is the same as the guy who says, “yea, you can blow me.”

    In all the cases I know, it was the guy who offered (and for some, insisted!).

    Desi,

    but as is all too common, she was reticent about emotional escalation

    Well, that’s the crux of it. If you can tell that she’s being emotionally reticent, it is not a good idea to go down on her. (Same holds for the opposite sex.)

    Oral is a way for a woman to keep her number down

    You know, I don’t think girls even think about keeping their number down. Even if they reach 10+ partners, that’s considered normal among people my age. So there’s no incentive to lie about it, especially if the number will already be perceived as low. Girls just don’t think about it, especially since most don’t realize guys care about it. And if you ask them about including oral, they’ll add it as an, “oh yeah, I guess so” afterthought. But there’s no shame or deceit, it’s just matter-of-fact.

    What matters is not her number but what sort of man she’s been with, oral or P in V.

    Agreed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You know, I don’t think girls even think about keeping their number down. Even if they reach 10+ partners, that’s considered normal among people my age.

      I’ve seen women buy a round of shots to celebrate hitting double digits. They were slutty, but still. No one blinks an eye at 10.

  • Rum

    The thing that keeps my head spinning while reading this blog is exemplified by Susans comment(a question, actually) about which parts of the Dark Triad/Evil Guy traits are directly pushing the SEX ON buttons on a womans control panel.
    Susan Welch is among the more self aware women I have ever read and it appears that she is asking strangers on the interwebs what turns-on her kind.
    For guys, your penis never lies to you about sexual attraction regarding a particular woman. Beyond that, it has absolute veto power over what your fore-brain might be trying to pull. You cannot order it to stand to attention and march into the trenches if it does not feel the call and, if you had a reason of some kind, you describe with some precision what it required. So, for guys, having a more or less conscious understanding of what turns us on comes with the package. Our minds and bodies are linked.
    Some elegant experiments involving the use of vaginal moistometers and a series of graphic sexual imagery followed by the question, “Does this one turn you on?” came to a conclusion. The right answer is always, “How should I know?”
    Men know when they are turned on because Nature will not let them be un-aware of it. Women struggle to understand the process in their own bodies because its physically manifested urgency is hard for them to notice and their fore-brains would try to argue against the possibility of what was happening for as long as the hamster had breath. Hamsters who get tough, daily work outs tend to be in shape.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The thing that keeps my head spinning while reading this blog is exemplified by Susans comment(a question, actually) about which parts of the Dark Triad/Evil Guy traits are directly pushing the SEX ON buttons on a womans control panel.

      Sorry, Rum, that was sarcasm. The answer is: none of them.

      I will acknowledge that women understand their attraction triggers less well than men do. You know why? Because we have a much more complex array of them.

      Men are visual. They respond to a gender cue that is fundamental and fixed. They respond to visual cues that are flexible during adolescence, then very fixed…Any cue triggers an immediate, powerful reaction directed toward seduction and orgasm.

      Women are more focused on emotional and psychological cues, which generate erotic stories suited for satisfying female appetites. Women respond to a truly astonishing range of cues across many domains. The physical appearance of a man, his social status, personality, commitment, the authenticity of his emotions, his confidence, family, attitude toward children, kindness, height and smell are all important to women.

      Unlike men, who become aroused after being exposed to a single cue, women need to experience enough simultaneous cues to cross an ever-varying threshold. Sometimes, just a few overwhelming cues can take a woman there. Other times, it takes a very large number of moderate cutes. For a man, a single cue is often sufficient, and sometimes necessary. For women, no single cue is either necessary or sufficient.

      Ogi Ogas, A Billion Wicked Thoughts

      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/09/30/hookinguprealities/marcottes-boxers-are-in-a-twist-over-nice-guys%C2%AE/comment-page-7/

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega,

    Thanks. You know, I think it’s less the “ease” with which sex can be gotten that makes a player less able to commit; I think it’s the understanding his experience gives him of women. The player experiences easy women and begins to think all women are promiscuous, hot for “alphas” (alphas don’t exist), and unable to understand or appreciate real love–only “base” sexual attraction.

  • Lindsay

    @Susan:

    What’s the science for that? I read a new report recently that after combing through all the studies, including MRIs and other observant measures, scientists have stated there is NO evidence that the g-spot exists. That is not to say there is not wide variety in the way women experience orgasm, but as of today, no specific spot with extra nerve endings.

    Same with female ejaculation – they know it’s a fluid that exits the urethra, from the bladder. There is no scientific explanation for it if it is not urine. They cannot find a way for it to be possible. So I’m very skeptical of claims like this.

    Many anatomists are in agreement that the Skene’s glands are responsible for generating female ejaculate. The location of these glands within the vaginal wall is highly variable – and altogether absent in some women – so it makes sense that research both confirming and denying female ejaculate exists. The study results depend on what subjects are selected and why. The Skene’s glands, once fully stimulated – providing a woman has them, AND they’re in a “convenient” spot (sometimes called the “G-spot”), otherwise, it won’t happen – release a clear liquid that’s rich in PSA. The PSA, or prostate-specific antigen levels, are typically comparable to the levels found in male ejaculate. These glands drain into the urethra during orgasm, which is why women who “gush” for the first time so frequently confuse ejaculate with urine. I have confirmed myself that the fluid isn’t urine, though.

    From a developmental biology perspective, the mechanism of female orgasm makes perfect sense. The reproductive organs of male and female fetuses develop from the same rudimentary duct, and many of the structures are analogous even at birth. So while the G-spot and female orgasm have become a highly political and divisive discussion over the past few decades, they’re actually as “un-sexy” as anatomical variances. What’s more interesting is why there are variances, and what biological purpose those variances serve. I’m hoping we’ll learn more about this over the next decade or two.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lindsay

      Many anatomists are in agreement that the Skene’s glands are responsible for generating female ejaculate. The location of these glands within the vaginal wall is highly variable – and altogether absent in some women – so it makes sense that research both confirming and denying female ejaculate exists.

      I have never heard of an organ that some women have and some don’t…from an evolutionary perspective this seems a radical concept. Am I missing something? Is this a gland that has been identified, say, in autopsies, or medical students working on cadavers? Is this AMA-accepted, IOW?

      If you are correct, then the female orgasm machinery varies dramatically in individuals. According to women who ejaculate, the orgasm is many times better than a clitoral orgasm. Has anyone come up with an explanation for this as an intermittent feature in the population?

  • Rum

    FWIW, never in all of history have two guys watched a hottie walk by and then one guy asks another, “What about her was hot?”
    Not once. More like, less than once.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      FWIW, never in all of history have two guys watched a hottie walk by and then one guy asks another, “What about her was hot?”
      Not once. More like, less than once.

      Precisely. She either makes you stiff or she doesn’t. We’re not like that. We’re evaluating dozens of factors, and we generally need time to feel attraction, though we can certainly rule guys out right away.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’ve seen women buy a round of shots to celebrate hitting double digits.

    Girls can be such guys at times.

  • anonymous

    Ramble:
    “Way, WAY too many girls have fallen for unrepentant ‘bad boys’, and it was obviously the bad-ness that they were falling for.
    it was the Dark Triad stuff that drew her attention to begin with.
    But, for those girls that do fall for Dark Triad guys, it is often the Dark side that really got them (IME).”
    ————–
    I’ve also witnessed many women falling for the narcissist. (I only object when people insist that ALL women do.)
    But, I’ll ask you a question, k?
    Are these guys loners or are they usually surrounded by many friends?

    Why is that?
    Why are they usually popular?
    Is it because of their Dark Triad qualities?
    No. They have other outstanding qualities, like charm.

    I’d compare this to teaching kids to “stay away from strangers.”
    “Strangers” — as in child abductors/pedophiles are supposed to look like boogeymen. Except they don’t.
    Neither do people with DT traits.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Idk. I’ve known people who’ve fallen for narcissists, so I’m empathetic. They just seem so ridiculously obvious to me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JM

      I’ve known people who’ve fallen for narcissists, so I’m empathetic. They just seem so ridiculously obvious to me.

      In my experience, women spot female narcissists easily, men spot male narcissists easily.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    I wouldn’t say I’m conservative WRT sex, but I’ve got ethical problems (strictly secular) with the whole hookup scene. When I was single, I felt like it made it that much harder to connect romantically with the opposite sex. It’s not the kind of social environment I’d ever want to raise kids in, that’s for sure.

  • anonymous

    ugh, submitted by accident.
    cont from #481:
    People don’t automatically recognize DT traits, until they’re more involved with the person.
    Other people spot them quickly.

    Some people are outright jerks and treat people like crap…. but they’re not necessarily DT, they’re just jerks. If you fall for someone treating you like crap, you’ve got issues.
    But, yeah, lots of people have issues.

  • Rum

    I do not think that counting nerve density in tissue beds is the best way to look for “spots” like the famed G spot. Dedicated field work is better. For example, I have encountered some evidence that, in the right hands, nipples and ear-lobes can be brought to orbital escape velocity thus producing all the energy needed to lift a full grown woman right off the bed.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Mike C.

    Mike, is there a way we can keep Badger from reading this thread? If it weren’t for the fact my wife served me a lot of wine with tonight’s porkchops, I probably would be leaking blood from all the pounding of my head against the wall :-) He’d probably have a coronary…

    Vox’s words, from his comment thread on the topic:

    “There aren’t very many alphas, just like there aren’t very many rock stars and CEOs.”

    With that in mind, I figured this thread would be a light hearted parody, with a cautionary Dalrock-like “If you want alpha” theme. Sort of like a a military tactics forum on “If you plan on pursuing a land war in Asia” or a dating blog forum telling you how to honestly answer the “do I look fat in these jeans” questions…

    I’m not sure where to begin…time for another drink…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ExNewYorker

      I’ve often said that the 20% tends to pair off with the 20% (those having the most casual sex), and the 80% pairs off with the 80%. That is certainly true of regulars here. This post, inspired by Vox’s suggestion, or “solution,” addresses women in the 20%. They’re not the sluttiest sluts – those women need men with very high numbers, who may regard their tally as rounding error. They’re women who have hit double digits themselves, a very common occurrence. I’m not prepared to disqualify those women or men from being suitable for marriage or parenting.

      Vox suggests, based on his data, that the cutoff for the 20% of men is 15 partners, at age 38. I’m surprised it is that low, frankly. Then again, I have written before that that many partners by college graduation is only achieved by 2% of males. We’re talking about two different generations, it’s apples and oranges. Though as I said, I know a very nice group of beta guys who are at 10 as they approach their mid-20s. Getting drunk at a party or bar can do wonders for your sex life.

      You might want to take a red pill booster with your next glass of wine.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        It also occurs to me that the “all women are sluts” meme is more understandable when slut is defined as more than a partner or two, a la Dalrock, who defines promiscuity as any partner other than one’s eventual spouse before marriage.

  • Trish

    @Leap of Beta

    I’m sorry, did I strike a nerve? You seem to have concocted this image in your mind of a theoretical gf laying next to you, wistfully sighing as she expels the tales of being ravaged by past alphas while being oblivious the disgusted expression on your face.

    That is not the case. My bf and I are very open, and he is the most comfortable guy with sexuality (everyone’s sexuality, not just his) without being anywhere near a manslut. If he asks details about how a previous bf was, I see no reason not to tell him or to act ashamed. He understands that people in relationships DO things, and that I existed and had a life before he ever met me.

    This particular paragraph gave me the hint that you’re hugely misinterpreting and projecting everything I’ve said based on some paranoia of this evil sex pos “slut” that exists in your mind:

    “If you’re describing other boyfriends and your sex life, you’re projecting what you want onto men. We really don’t care what the hell you did with those five other men before you met us.”

    Um, no and no. If I’m projecting what I wanted, I would have stayed with one of my previous bfs. And you are not “we”. You are one guy. I have had a bf that was disgusted at the thought of me doing anything sexual with a previous bf, to the point where he was obsessing over it even though I LEFT the previous one for him. Like I said, my current bf has a natural curiosity, as do I of his past. We are completely honest with each other, and not once do I feel like he is judging me or thinking of me as a pump and dump (again, we’ve been living together for 4 years). I respect him more than any other bf I’ve had but I wouldn’t know how great he is if I didn’t have any of this prior experience.

    People don’t get “washed up” or “damaged” from talking about their past sex experiences or “slut stories” as you call them. I’m sorry, but I don’t believe that you are secure with your sexuality at all judging from your hostile, closed-minded language towards women who have had more sex than you.

    It just saddens me that because of over-simplified prevailing evo-psych attitudes on the internet, girls are going to go into relationships and through life believing that they need to be ashamed of being HUMAN. There are great, masculine, and supportive guys out there who don’t even have the word “slut” in their vocabulary list, let alone will judge you on the status of your vagina or expect you to keep your past experiences a secret lest you ruin their fantasy of you as a naive virgin.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ JM

    Right now I have a show that closes this weekend called Drawer Boy. Play set in the 70′s about some Canadian farmers that have a city boy actor show up at their door to learn how to portray a farmer. You end up learning the messed up but touching story of how these two war vets have stuck by each other through the years.

    But tonight I just went and got slapped in the face by a bad night of short sketches. Abysmally bad. It was free, but I still wish I had my time and the money I spent on public trans back.

  • HawaiianB

    I grew up in a European holiday resort and had 30+ partners before I was in my 20s. I agree that can have an effect on the ideal of settling with one partner for life. However, I think counting partners is an association not a root cause. Sex for sport is an undercurrent in all men – some more than others – and THAT is the real issue. In a healthy balanced soul it’s a stage – in the opposite extreme, a possible addiction.
    For the record – I’m in my 40s, unmarried, and partners wise passed the 40 mark long ,long ago. Having unfettered access to women meant that I could experiment with relationships both long and short – some more meaningful than others. When I was committed, I was very committed but when I was singles I was very, Very, single. The origins of that behavior lie in the atmosphere of my upbringing and how I remember my own parent’s tumultuous marriage. Faith plays a role in the way any traditional form of therapy does – it tries to get to the root cause of emotional pain and suffering often buried in the subconscious – it only works while you’re working it.
    How does a woman turn a (good, healthy ) cad into a Dad? The answer to that question is based on whether a woman has the relationship skill set necessary to inspire a passionate friendship and navigate her own issues at the same time.
    I recommend reading “Getting The Love You Want” by Harville Hendrix. It helped me profoundly. All the answers lie within.

  • Need Advice

    I have a crush on a shy geek. He might like me too but with these types its hard to tell. I’m very frustrated by his lack of assertiveness in initiating contact with me. When I initiate he responds but I feel like I’m bothering him all the time. At the same time a pro-active guy has initiated contact with me and although I am not crushing on him, its refreshing to not have to be the initiator all the time. Now if I go out with him and he turns out to be a jerk then the Peanut Gallery will hold placards that read, “See! Women prefer jerks over nice guys!” Its not that. Its just that I responded to a pro-active initiator who didn’t make me feel like I was bothering him. Shy guys need to step up to the plate. Women are not mind readers either. If you are interested in a woman you have to do some initiating otherwise she will think you don’t like her.

    What should I do? Forget him or risk rejection by forcibly dragging him to the next level?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Need Advice

      Risk rejection by initiating more contact and leaving little doubt as to your level of interest. Ask him out on a date. Tell him you like him once you get to know him a bit better. And check in the forum – Ozymandias wrote a couple of posts on getting with geeky guys.

  • Desiderius

    “Also, the study sample was 200 college guys.”

    “David Schmitt, of Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois, surveyed 35,000 people in 57 countries and found a similar link. “It is universal across cultures,” he said.”

    “Players are naturally practiced at deception. I think it’s likely these were just high SMV guys!

    When a woman smiles, punches your arm and calls you asshole, it is most likely that you just negged her successfully, not that you are a psychopath.”

    Deception/manipulation = high SMV.

    Hardly light.

    Keep whistling past that graveyard…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      You misunderstood my point, which is that women are not attracted to evil serial killers. In fact, a healthy woman is not attracted to assholes. We are attracted to confidence, to the point of cockiness, and dominance to the point of manipulation. I would assert that on a scale of 1-10 for Dark Triad traits, the sweet spot for attraction is around a 3. In that article you provided, the guys who had the most partners were not “self-obsessed psychopaths” as the article claimed, they were slightly douchey frat knuckleheads who play sports and get girls.

  • this is jen

    Susan Walsh February 23, 2012 at 12:45 am
    You know, I don’t think girls even think about keeping their number down. Even if they reach 10+ partners, that’s considered normal among people my age.

    I’ve seen women buy a round of shots to celebrate hitting double digits. They were slutty, but still. No one blinks an eye at 1o
    ……………………

    Oh God, really?

  • stillcode

    @Jason

    If you are reading this, I would suggest that you continue your current lifestyle and forget the long term relationship aspect. Statistically, (with you having a count of 40 and you love interest a count of 16) the likelihood of the two of you remaining exclusive and together are very low. You can stay with her for as long as the both of you like, but don’t get any illusions that this will end “happily ever after”. The numbers are not in your favor.

  • WarmWoman

    @Jm

    As a kid, I remember people being so fooled and charmed by my narcissistc mother. I was told how lucky I was to have such a wonderful mom, yet nobody knew what was going on behind closed doors. Even therapists thought that she was such a sweet woman that just happened to have a trouble-making kid (me). Thank god adults NOW look at troubled kids as walking symptoms of their parents.

    The first person that told me that my mom was a clinical narcissist was when I was 24. I wish someone had told me earlier.

    Obviously, I was going to be susceptible to N men. I was going to what I grew up with.

  • Just1X

    @Need Advice

    just hold his hand when you’re next walking with him, he will notice (I promise). If he doesn’t like it, you can play it down as a friendly thing rather than a sex thing. Similarly, a quick peck on the cheek as hello, you can always say you watched a French film the night before…

    good luck

  • Just1X

    @Need Advice

    the French kiss on both (facial) cheeks (for the sake of authenticity)

  • OffTheCuff

    Sw: “Not rare, for sure. Maybe uncommon compared to the average guy. This probably represents about 25% of men between the ages of 20 and 40 today. I’d wager it’s actually 50%.”

    Last I knew the median for men was 6. Six, from a reputable source. Perhaps it is out of date. It does not strike me that 2 to 5 times that amount can then be so common as to be 25-50%, but if you can show me some numbers I would believe it. Vox’s informal survey likely has a huge selection bias and any results are useless, unless you like that selection bias.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OffTheCuff

      Last I knew the median for men was 6. Six, from a reputable source. Perhaps it is out of date.

      Medians are not as useful here, I think the 80/20 breakdown gives a clearer picture. Vox did say that his cutoff of 15 for alpha matches the CDC’s – I’m not sure what he’s referring to there. The thing about a median for the whole population is that it includes my 78 yo dad, who was done gathering new partners before the sexual revolution even happened. Sexual mores changed dramatically then, which I experienced, and again in the 90s, which I write about.

      Also, Vox sets a rather arbitrary dividing line. A guy with 15 partners is an alpha in the top 20%, a guy with 14 partners is a beta in the 80%. I don’t think we can take any of this to the bank, it’s just interesting that Vox found clear correlations in his sample, which I agree is far from random.

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    “Women are more focused on emotional and psychological cues, which generate erotic stories suited for satisfying female appetites. Women respond to a truly astonishing range of cues across many domains. The physical appearance of a man, his social status, personality, commitment, the authenticity of his emotions, his confidence, family, attitude toward children, kindness, height and smell are all important to women.”

    Of course a fat wallet doesn’t hurt either, I can’t believe you forgot that one…20 year old beauty queens marrying nonagenarian oil billionaires for love?????

    http://www.zimbio.com/Oleksandra+Nikolayenko/articles/1/Oleksandra+Nikolayenko+Billionaire+lands+Ukrainian
    http://prettymomguide.com/top-10-most-eligible-billionaires.html

    Just sayin’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      To be clear, that list was from Ogi Ogas, protege of noted evolutionary psychologist Donald Symons. But yeah, I agree – it’s a bit odd that he didn’t mention the provider role.

  • Ramble

    I wasn’t saying that empathy alone is an attraction trigger. I’m saying that narcissists appear charming, and caring, and delighted to be in your presence. They’re not “bad boys” in the traditional sense. Many of them fly under the radar and appear to be all-around good guys, especially to their guy friends. Their narcissism is revealed in the way they use and dispose of people, and that’s long after attraction initially occurred.

    OK, I am starting to understand. I think that we were talking past each other a bit. You were more addressing narcissists and I was more addressing the “bad boys”. I understand that there is a relationship between the two, but the attraction triggers can be very different.

    I don’t know any woman who is attracted by cunning and deceit, or by antisocial personality disorder, a mental illness. Again, I believe that you’re exaggerating the charm of these traits.

    No, I am not saying that cunning and deceit (or narcissism in general) is attractive to most girls, but that many of the ‘bad” Alpha traits are (i.e. She knows that he is “successful” with girls [he makes no apologies for the player/caddish life he lives], but is absolutely not turned off by this, he calls her out on her shit instead of being gracious and gentlemanly, he treats her like his “kid sister” ["is she always like this"], etc.).

    While not a particularly realistic example of narcissism and “bad boy”, the social dynamics that played out in the earlier seasons of Two and Half Men might be instructive. The girls hated when Charlie cheated on them or lied to them (i.e. cunning and deceit), but loved when he was an unrepentant player (that is, until they were the ones in a “committed” relationship with him and had to deal with the idea that he might just dump them, or cheat).

  • Ramble

    In my experience, women spot female narcissists easily, men spot male narcissists easily.

    Anna, a few threads back, said something very similar. And her resulting frustration with those guys that do not see the game-playing girl for what she is.

    We need to stop worrying about whether children have memorized (temporarily) the State Capitals, and start teaching 12-15 year olds the realities of this world.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Charm – “ I’m not particularly introverted, or a homebody or anything, but I prefer to have a few close friends, but mostly stay in my own world.”

    Well, you may not be officially introverted, but that IS introverted behavior. Nothing wrong with it. Of course I would say that, being an official introvert myself. :P

    “I got called an outlier by someone on another blog. I don’t think my behaviors odd. I think I have a lot of sense.”

    The fact that you have any sense at all kinda does make you an outlier, especially if you are younger. (which I believe you are). In fact, despite what everyone here may say, just about every regular poster at HUS is in outlier to an extent. Think about it. We all come together to talk about WHY we behave in certain ways. Now, think of all the people you know, not just friends, co-workers, classmates, family, everyone. Got it? How many of them put any thought into WHY they act the way they do? If you can think of more than a few, you have exceptionally aware friends. I can say that all but a few of mine do, but I intentionally keep few friends and always try to only keep the most sensible people I know around me. Sure, they all have their flaws, but I can trust each and every one of them to think sensibly 98% of the time. (everyone has an off day…)

    Mike C – “A few threads back we had this intense debate on fantasizing. I actually didn’t have a big problem with it but Jesus Mahoney was totally against it, and I think it is because it implies the fantasy is the A guy while the real life guy is the B guy.”

    DING DING DING! Winner winner chicken dinner!

    Sassy – “You can find a pile of good girls stacked on top of each other in front of any Barnes & Noble or Planned Parenthood. “

    Is that a dig on B&N? I’m a big fan of their stores, although since buying a Nook, I don’t get to sit in the coffee shop drinking way too expensive drinks as often as I used to.

    “I couldn’t imagine giving handjobs to 20 different guys, yet not sleeping with a single one of them. That girl would be a world class tease. Including handjobs though, my overall number would be 9. It’s important to note that my definition of a handjob is any hand to genital contact whatsoever. The guy doesn’t have to get off. If my hand has come in contact with his genitals, even for a moment, I’ve counted it in that number.”

    And that my dear friend is why I count handjobs. It means she is either a tease, a gold digger trying to sell short, or has some issues I don’t want to deal with. By most standards here, 9 isn’t a bad number anyway, so I wouldn’t be too stressed. And, like JM said, most guys won’t care. Don’t go by me, I know I am way more sensitive of the subject than the average bear. ;)

    “Should a woman add to her number if a guy goes down on her and she doesn’t reciprocate? Does a guy count that as a “conquest?”
    I would just like to note, to great amusement, that no man here has answered this question.”

    YES! ;-)

    Jason – Jesus M said – “Jason loves her, yea, but he’s gotta be able to live with her and if her past is going to eat away at him, then it isn’t fair to either of them.”

    Yep. Love has nothing to do with it, believe me. And I can’t even say logic has anything to do with it either, because logically both you and I seem to be in very good, stable relationships. (not sure how far along yours is, mine is 2.5 years deep.) I KNOW she loves me, I KNOW I love here, and on the surface everything seems fine. Part of me is scared shitless now because of what I’ve learned in the last year after taking the “red pill” and how I feel at times doesn’t jive with how I think. That for me is the worst situation, because I try to always know why I “feel” a certain way. Ask any regular here, and they will tell you how much I am stressing on this exact same issue.
    Now, the question I am asking myself, and the one I think you need to answer for yourself is: do you trust her? Because in the end, we have shown here over and over that past behavior DOES NOT always predict future behavior, but overall it is a good basis.

    So what I need to figure out is: is my SO’s past behavior (and it is pretty far back in her defense) a predictor of her future behavior? In the end, I agree with JM and Sassy, I either need to get my shit together or GTFO. I’m working on the first option, but it is not an easy task.

    Megaman – “I’ve seen a few guys go down the player path. The question that always popped into my head, and I’ve heard women ask this too, was: now that he views women as disposable to some degree, how can he believably commit if he does meet someone special? Ease of entry/ease of exit, on an emotional level so to speak.”

    That is the exact same question I’ve always had as well. I don’t know any old (my age LOL) players, so I have no one to ask. But, I’d imagine the longer they “play”, the harder it becomes.

    Trish – “It just saddens me that because of over-simplified prevailing evo-psych attitudes on the internet, girls are going to go into relationships and through life believing that they need to be ashamed of being HUMAN.”

    I’m human, and a man. Yet my total count is still 5. I would never shame someone for being human. But, I would call their ability to resist temptation, ability to put off short-term gratification for long-term success, and judgment regarding other people into question if they have a high notch count. Keep in mind, I hold men to the same standard, so please don’t throw a “double standard” comment my way. None of this is about “shaming” anyone. It is about making sure the person I am going to commit my life to is worthy of it. Call that what you want, it really is the bottom line.

    WW – “The first person that told me that my mom was a clinical narcissist was when I was 24. I wish someone had told me earlier.”

    I’m seriously wondering if my SO’s mother isn’t cut from the same mold. Having children, for her, was simply another way to get more attention for herself. To this day, she always tries to keep “all eyes” on her, even if the only way to do it is to start drama. My SO says that during her teens, her mother went to a therapist for awhile after an attempted suicide. (although my SO thinks it was ‘attempted’ because she never intended to die, she was looking for attention). The therapist gave her a clean bill of mental health! I’ve met her, but thankfully she isn’t a regular part of our life. From the few conversations we’ve had, I can tell she isn’t mentally healthy at all. I’ve known a few male narcissists in my life, but this is the first woman narcissist I’m aware of. It looks VERY different, so I can see that maybe women can’t tell who the male narcissists really are…

  • Ramble

    The fact that you have any sense at all kinda does make you an outlier, especially if you are younger. (which I believe you are). In fact, despite what everyone here may say, just about every regular poster at HUS is in outlier to an extent.

    Yeah, I would say that at least a large minority or the posters here are at, or near, the far end of the bell curve. Especially for all the guys that took the Red Pill and all the girls that took the Pink Pill.

    They, in general, simply have more awareness.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Ramble – “Yeah, I would say that at least a large minority or the posters here are at, or near, the far end of the bell curve. Especially for all the guys that took the Red Pill and all the girls that took the Pink Pill.”

    Pink pill?! Nice! I always wondered what color the female one was.

  • Ramble

    Ted, you know, we make a lot of references to the hard truths that some men wake up to (i.e. taking the Red Pill), but, I think it is a different awakening that some girls get. So, they should get their own color.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    In my experience, women spot female narcissists easily, men spot male narcissists easily.

    Idk, it seems to me that in both cases, the narcissist tries to manipulate situations so that energy is focused on them. They’re like cold-blooded animals, incapable of generated any warmth on their own, who only thrive when others radiate attention and adoration toward them.

  • Just1X

    @Ramble

    Blue Pill == Scarlet Pill

    Red Pill == Pink Pill

    ?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Warm Woman,

    Yea, it’s maddening growing up with a narcissist. In my case, it was my older brother. Every girl in the neighborhood was in love with him, the boys wanted to be his friend, and even most of my closest friends, people who knew what he was like to me, were won over by him. Even my first girlfriend. Not that she cheated with him, but despite knowing what he was like, she was charmed by him quite easily. It’s enough to fill a person with some bitterness. Though in my case, it had the opposite effect. I’ve always had a sensitive antenna and a strong repulsion from narcissists.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “If you are correct, then the female orgasm machinery varies dramatically in individuals. According to women who ejaculate, the orgasm is many times better than a clitoral orgasm.”

    It has nothing to with ejaculation. Not all vaginal orgasms cause a squirt, but all squirts are from vaginal orgasms. Dry ones happen all the time and wetness doesn’t alwaysncorrelate to intensity. I honestly believe all women are physically capable of it [VO], just not everyone has a competent partner plus enough trust in them.

  • Ramble

    @Ramble

    Blue Pill == Scarlet Pill

    Red Pill == Pink Pill

    Actually, I regret choosing pink for the pill that brings them the truth. A better contrast might be:

    Blue Pill = Hot Pink with Glitter

    Red Pill = White Pill (or Yellow, or something…something understated, reserved and classy)

  • Ramble

    Not that she cheated with him, but despite knowing what he was like, she was charmed by him quite easily.

    JM,
    Was his charm attractive to her and his narcissism unattractive to her (but the charm outweighed the narcissism), or, was the whole narcissisticly charming attitude attractive to her?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Wait, Jason has a count of 40 and his girlfriend only has a count of 16? That’s what you get when you skim. Jason, suck it up.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JM

      Wait, Jason has a count of 40 and his girlfriend only has a count of 16? That’s what you get when you skim. Jason, suck it up.

      So do you agree with me that some sort of ratio is valid? I don’t know what it should be, it is .4 in this case. I get the sexual double standard, but at some point a player is going to have a hard time attracting a chaste woman for long-term. In part because he never bothers with them. I’ve seen relationships, and even marriages, take hold between alpha players and slutty women. In fact, I think it must be somewhat common.

      It seems to me that women who work to keep their number low, especially attractive women, demonstrate certain values and a lot of self-discipline. I don’t think they’ll go for the guy with a very high count. I think that sets off alarm bells wrt long-term mating fitness, as it should.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        Since yesterday I’ve been thinking about something in this thread and wanted to return to it, because I’m just not understanding it well. I think most, if not all of the guys here said that when a guy gets out of a relationship, he moves on quickly he doesn’t dwell on it. Therefore, his having been in love recently or in a very long-term relationship should not be a red flag for women seeking a life partner. I figured that my small sample when I’ve seen this play out badly was an anomaly, but I’m still not getting it. I would appreciate feedback from the guys on this:

        1. Why can’t one-itis be something that continues after a relationship ends, especially if the guy was not the one to end it?

        2. We know that guys vary a lot in the way they handle emotion – emo guys being the most obvious example. I recently got a confession from the Poet (who found me via the blog) that he never got over me, and it’s been 35 years. (That was awkward.) Last July Deti wrote a post about his nostalgic longing for a girl named Summer, whom he knew in college. Is it the case that the guys here tend toward the less emo end of the spectrum, and don’t represent the full male population?

        3. I recall hearing that men take breakups harder than women, and spend more time getting over them. Here is a quote from Men’s Health magazine:

        Women are more likely to cry soon after the breakup, and they’re also more likely to use straight talk when ending a relationship, studies find. So women face their relationship blues head on, and get them out of their systems earlier. Many men tend to repress their reaction, so it lingers like basement mold.

        http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/coping_with_a_breakup/printer.php

        Or this article stating that men quickly jump into new relationships to avoid the pain of breakups:

        http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_500/513_why-a-new-girlfriend-is-the-last-thing-you-need.html

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    My prenatal vitamins are pink, so I take a pink pill every day. :P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      My prenatal vitamins are pink, so I take a pink pill every day.

      No wonder you are so insightful!

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ramble,

    I was 15. I have no idea. I certainly didn’t discuss it with her–I knew instinctively not to open up to a woman who was charmed by a narcissist… I mean one that was charmed by someone she knew was a sociopath.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Woman should be girl. Obviously I wasn’t dating 25 year olds when I was 15.

  • J

    Y’all see the irony in writing an article about women avoiding men with a certain number of partners, and then saying that oral doesn’t count, right?

    I think we are probably talking about two different groups of women. If SW is corret that 20% of college kids are having 80% of college sex, then it’s the girls who think BJs don’t count who are haveing sex with the players. The girls sitting in the library with their noses in a book have probably never given a BJ.

  • Ted D

    JM – “Wait, Jason has a count of 40 and his girlfriend only has a count of 16? That’s what you get when you skim. Jason, suck it up.”

    Proof that even players don’t want to settle down with a promiscuous woman, at least some of the time.

    No offense meant Jason. Just pointing out that it isn’t always about the guy having a low count, not insinuating your GF was/is promiscuous.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “I’m not prepared to disqualify those women or men from being suitable for marriage or parenting.”

    If only the double digit crowd would only date amongst themselves : )

    Given men’s preferences for women with lower counts than themselves (even at higher levels), this mismatch in experience between any 2 people will probably continue to cause some heartache.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      Given men’s preferences for women with lower counts than themselves (even at higher levels), this mismatch in experience between any 2 people will probably continue to cause some heartache

      Yes. I was actually considering running Jason’s comment as a post. A warning to women – here’s a former player who got to 40 by the age of 21, and he wants a woman of limited sexual experience. This is what men want!

  • J

    I rather have a man with always LTR, or none that any cadish past. I mean how do you know he can love you and relationship with you if the only experiences he has in the past were low investment? Unless he is a virgin something in him is not working.

    Co-signed. My DH was an LTR guy, not a NSA guy, before we met. I’d rather be with someone who tried and failed at a committed relationship then didn’t try at all.

  • J

    JM–I’m surprised to read that you are only 28; you have a very mature outlook.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ramble, I think you’re trying too hard. Trinity took the red pill, too.

    The original Matrix first came out back when the Internet was still full of nerds. Normal people thought we were lame for spending so much time on the computer. What a difference 10 years make.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @OffTheCuff; SW
    I think Mr. Day is referring to this (page 20, table 4 for men):

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr036.pdf

    I go here to check my facts, too. Joint Census/CDC data are from 2008, and specifically limits the sample to men aged 15-44 at the time. This would leave out older generations, and very young and active kids. For various age groups of men 20 and up, the median number of lifetime partners self-reported is between 4.1 and 6.4 (for all then married men, it’s 4.9). I threw out the ~25% ballpark estimate. It appears that for men aged 25-44, 28% reported 15+ partners. For guys 20-24 (still marrying age), it was quite a bit less at 14%.

    So I think median does matter, as OffTheCuff said. But for whatever reason, there’s a 1/4 chunk who are at least 2x the median. They may not be much past 15 to 20. I bet the 30, 40, 50+ partner counts are big outliers. They’re not dragging the median up much at all. If I read anything wrong, please let me know.

    P.S. Susan, I think I saw an unflattering article on you at the Psycholody Today website. Probably the last time I’ll be visiting there : )

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      Yes, I really pissed off an ardent feminist “quirkyalone” with my post on the politics of Single By Choice. I didn’t even bother to read the whole thing, she’s a radical left wingnut.

      I find that Psychology Today is extremely variable in the quality of its blogs. I think anyone at all can start a blog saying whatever they want for a fee, and run it under the PT banner. I take things there with a grain of salt.

  • J

    I think a lot of game is based on feeding a woman’s hamster better than she can feed it herself

    Clever.

    I often consider that the only reason I have low hypergamy is that I already have more than enough drama in my head and no man trying to feed me drama can match it,

    That is really interesting. People who know me IRL accuse me of living in my head, and I have a near zero tolerance for extraneous drame.

  • Ramble

    Trinity took the red pill, too.

    And it did not make her any more feminine. Girls should be taking different pills than guys.

  • J

    This makes a lot of sense it you think about: “Men know when they are turned on because Nature will not let them be un-aware of it. ”

    This, not so much: “Women struggle to understand the process in their own bodies because its physically manifested urgency is hard for them to notice ….”

    Frankly, it’s hard not to notice moisture pooling in your panties, vulvar engorgement and tingling, a warm flush across the face, neck and chest and heavier breathing. Really.

    I once saw and interesting phenomenon on a match-making reality show that attempted to put all thses science of romance theories into action. They asked the male contestants what turned them on, and most answered that they wanted a stereotypical tall, slender, blue-eyed blonde hottie. Then they hooked them up to meters that measured pupil dialation, galvanic skin response and erectile function. It turned out to be a lucky day for the petite, brown-eyed, curvy brunette contestants.

    Perhaps all of us struggle to reconcile what our bodies want with what our brains want.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Actually, I became more feminine after I took the red pill. Trinity was fictional and had to be a fighting woman because it was also an action movie. She was also basically playing a fighter in a simulation game… in the “real world” she was not so able to kick ass much butt.

  • Ramble

    Susan,
    I think most, if not all of the guys here said that when a guy gets out of a relationship, he moves on quickly he doesn’t dwell on it.

    I am not sure which guys said that, but I would not co-sign it.

    Plenty of guys dwell on breakups for a long time.

    Tons of guys get hung up on one girl.

    And if you start counting all of those divorced men that were simply devastated by had happened (I understand that this also includes losing custody of children, getting raped in court, losing homes, etc), the list of guys who reacted very strongly to a break up goes up considerably.

    Still, there are plenty of cases where a guy gets over the girl pretty quickly after a break up…it really depends.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    So do you agree with me that some sort of ratio is valid?

    Pretty much. I mean, I don’t think it would be possible to establish a ratio, but I think it’s accurate to say that people who purposely limit their own sexual experiences are usually going to seek other like-minded people to pair off with.

    I think this touches on something I think is a major shortcoming in game as it’s discussed in the manosphere. Men in the ‘sphere tend to think that as far as women are concerned, seduction and mating is a purely amoral affair: women are attracted to dominance, period. However, it seems to me that while values in and of themselves may not trigger attraction, they do indeed act as a filter for other cues. A woman who values meaningful relationships to the point that she limits her involvement in hook up culture is unlikely to want to end up with a former player.

    Someone upthread mentioned bedding virgins in his player days. It occurs to me that unless a player is focusing his seduction efforts on sweet 16 parties, virgins who are willing to have NSA sex (knowing it’s NSA) are the exception, not the rule.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Given men’s preferences for women with lower counts than themselves (even at higher levels), this mismatch in experience between any 2 people will probably continue to cause some heartache

      AKA the Silvio Berlusconi Strategy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It occurs to me that unless a player is focusing his seduction efforts on sweet 16 parties, virgins who are willing to have NSA sex (knowing it’s NSA) are the exception, not the rule.

      Also known as the Silvio Berlusconi strategy.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan –
    1. Why can’t one-itis be something that continues after a relationship ends, especially if the guy was not the one to end it?

    Answer – It certainly can be. But, being a beta does NOT always mean you suffer from one-itis. And, although I may have had one-itis for each of my partners WHILE we were together, once I knew they no longer wanted me, I got over how I felt about them pretty quickly. What lasted was the pain of the breakup and loss, not any time of “missing” the woman in particular.

    2. We know that guys vary a lot in the way they handle emotion – emo guys being the most obvious example. I recently got a confession from the Poet (who found me via the blog) that he never got over me, and it’s been 35 years. (That was awkward.) Last July Deti wrote a post about his nostalgic longing for a girl named Summer, whom he knew in college. Is it the case that the guys here tend toward the less emo end of the spectrum, and don’t represent the full male population?

    I consider myself to be pretty “emo”. (I hate the term, but I do spend a lot of time keeping my emotions is check, so I take that to mean I am very emotionally active at least). I think the Poet is stuck on the ideal of you, and not really you. Did he even get to know you enough to be sure? Even if he did, like I said about women and their past alphas, its easy to think fondly of someone you never saw sick, or upset, or ever had to face hardship with. The same goes for Summer. Sure she seems wonderful when looking back, but would she have been so wonderful if she was still with him? maybe, maybe not. But to me, dwelling on that kind of thinking is ALWAYS a losing battle. I would be just as likely to find out the girl I never got really sucks as a partner.

    As to if I represent the average man? Sorry, I highly doubt it. Not only am I an introvert, a conservative, and a bit of a sexual prude it seems, I am also newly introduced to the red pill. As I said earlier Susan, I believe everyone here is in outlier.

    3. I recall hearing that men take breakups harder than women, and spend more time getting over them.

    I agree, but for a man taking time to “get over” a breakup does NOT mean taking time to get over his ex. Again, it wasn’t HER I was mourning, it was the loss of the relationship. The comfort. The security. The sense of belonging to someone/something. I wanted those feelings back for sure, but I didn’t want any of my partners back. They showed that they no longer wanted me, and even though I may have had many self-esteem/validation issues, even then I understood that once someone is done with me, even if I could “get them back”, they will never look at me the same again. And, I would never look at her the same, which means it would never work out.

  • Ramble

    Trinity was fictional and had to be a fighting woman because it was also an action movie. She was also basically playing a fighter in a simulation game

    Hope, you were the one that brought her up.

    When we reference the Red Pill, it is not a direct reference to The Matrix, but an indirect one.

    But, either way, The type of Pill that guys get from Roissy , Rollo, Roosh and the like is significantly different than the one that a girl might get from HUS.

  • Iggles

    @ Jesus Mahoney:

    Wait, Jason has a count of 40 and his girlfriend only has a count of 16? That’s what you get when you skim. Jason, suck it up.

    I second that, lol.

    To me, 40 partners at the age of the 24 is a lot. I’m Gen Y btw (I’m 27). While I get men can get very weird about their girlfriends’ number, they seem to be a good match – a case of those with high partner counts pairing up. Her number still works over to less than half of his!

  • J

    “Quirkyalone” is a really interesting term. I know people like that–people who really were too quirky to be part of a couple. A few weeks ago, my DH commented to me that all the single folks we know are “nuts.” For the most part, they were all a bit quirky in their teens and twenties and that probably made it hard to find somone. OTOH, DH and I are both plenty quirky, and we have each other. I commented to him that being part of a couple really helps keep the quirky stuff under control. One spouse will rein the other back in when things get too weird. I imagine that if you start out quirky and end up alone, things can really snowball out of control.

  • Charm

    @Ted D

    By introvert, I meant that I don’t get “burned out” easily on social interaction. I used to enjoy it. People used to amuse me and I used to benefit from it. Now, it doesn’t intrigue me or interest me much anymore. Its gotten to the point where I’ve hit a ceiling when interacting with people in my age range. I’ve kind of been forced to being more introverted which is fine by me since I like to spend a good amount of time up in my head getting exploring various things on my own.

    I think you might be right when it comes to being “aware” of ones self. I’ve been like this my whole life. Even as a small child in elementary school. I remember thinking that at the next stage of life “people would be different” and they would become more aware other their behaviors and what they were doing…..needless to say, I’m still waiting for that to happen. I’m in my last few months of college, and I’m still waiting….it doesn’t get better?

    Its kind of starting to blow my mind how people literally do not question why they engage in certain behaviors. Whenever I asked someone why they do something like, continue to date a person who treats them like crap, its like the moment of cognitive dissonance. I’ll ask it in a very logical way and the moment they have to think about it….they adopt this air of annoyance or anger and call me “insensitive” or I don’t “get it”. They are right. I don’t get it. It makes no sense so I don’t see why they do it. But I’m afraid to accept that they really just don’t think about it. <—my patience with this behavior has run pretty thin. It mostly makes me angry so I stay away.

    I'm only 22 so you guys probably have decades on me, but it has to get better. Please don't tell me that people remain clueless forever. It just can't be.

    @Trish

    I don't get it. Why is it that women always try to rally others to their sides with their shaming language and CAPITALIZE words claiming to be HUMAN?

    I, like Ted D, do not get or understand the appeal of having sex in the absence of love and tend to remain selective in my choices of sexual partners. There are numerous guys here who have high partner counts and although quite a few people disagree with it, none of them feel the need to rally the opposition to their side. They simply stand where they stand. I can respect that.

    You're acting like your humanity is under attack or something. None of us deny you being human we simply disagree with your behavior. You're acting like judging another person for their decisions is wrong or something. Its not. We all do it. All of us. I find that if you were confident in yourself you wouldn't need to feel "saddened" by Leaps opinion. Someone once told me that opinions are like assholes; we all have one.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Ramble, I like the original Matrix pill analogy because I’m a fan of the movie. :P

    Besides that, I got my first doses of the red pill from a rather famous evolutionary psychology professor whom Roissy and others have referenced (I took his classes in undergrad). Then I read Roissy in 2007, Roosh shortly thereafter, and have been in the “manosphere” for several years. I didn’t really come to HUS until 3 years after reading Roissy. The version of the red pill I took is not substantially different.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Jesus M. – “A woman who values meaningful relationships to the point that she limits her involvement in hook up culture is unlikely to want to end up with a former player.”

    Here is the rub: a woman who values meaningful relationships that DID NOT limit her sexual involvement in hookup culture because she didn’t realize the “commitment” minded men didn’t like a high partner count. If in fact most of her earlier experiences of men came from players/cads/etc (as in dad is a cad perhaps?) does she even realize that some men aren’t that way?

    I firmly believe that women who intentionally kept partner counts low and stayed away from NSA sex will indeed want a low count guy as a husband. But, it seems there are plenty of women that never realized the guys they were hooking up with WERE NOT in the same pile as the guys she will want to marry someday. Especially if the only example of “maleness” they had as a young girl were indeed players and cads. And, perhaps it is a generational thing. I suspect that there will be far less low count men in my son’s generation when they reach the late 20′s and early 30′s. The fact is, NSA sex is simply becoming the norm, and as much as I hate that fact, I don’t think it will change. In the end, it may be that the new “norm” for partner count at first marriage reaches 15+ for both, and at that point does any of this really matter/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted

      If in fact most of her earlier experiences of men came from players/cads/etc (as in dad is a cad perhaps?) does she even realize that some men aren’t that way?

      Yeah, I’m absolutely fascinated by the father-daughter relationship in establishing female attraction triggers. I read that a guy’s “type” and also the nature of his fantasies are wired during puberty, usually reflecting his first serious crush. Perhaps a girl’s triggers start getting wired very early in life with dad. I can’t find a study on this, so for now I’m just musing.

      In the end, it may be that the new “norm” for partner count at first marriage reaches 15+ for both, and at that point does any of this really matter/

      If that happens, it will be very interesting to look again at the marriage, divorce and childbirth rates.

  • J

    As I said earlier Susan, I believe everyone here is in outlier.

    LOL, Ted. Of course we are! Making it possible for outliers to find other outliers is what the net does best. Suddenly, the only bagpiper in Bumfuck, N.D. has a community–because of the net.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Charm – “I’m only 22 so you guys probably have decades on me, but it has to get better. Please don’t tell me that people remain clueless forever. It just can’t be.”

    I’m sorry to say, it never gets better. But, I will tell you that as you get older, you will find it easier to locate and befriend people like yourself. It has taken me the better part of 20 years to build my circle of friends. They all have their faults, but like me they are all very self-aware people.

    Also, I wanted to add, that I was EXACTLY like you in my late teens and early 20′s. I used to love being out in public. Not to participate, but to watch people interact with each other. I am still very amused by those interactions, but as I get older, “people” tend to piss me off more and more, and stupidity simply sends me into a tizzy. So, since most people generally just “go with the flow” without every thinking about the why of it, I find myself pulling away from situations where I am with “people” a lot. And, over time, being with “people” has become more of a drain on my energy.

  • Mike C

    The thing about a median for the whole population is that it includes my 78 yo dad, who was done gathering new partners before the sexual revolution even happened. Sexual mores changed dramatically then, which I experienced, and again in the 90s, which I write about.

    Susan,

    I’m curious… when do you think this major shift in the 90s occurred? Early, mid, or late 90s? Hard for me to ascertain it exactly given my personal experience. I graduated high school in 1991 and undergrad in 1995, but my participation in the SMP up to that point was zilch. In high school, I can remember boyfriend-girlfriend couples, and to the best of my recollection “dates”. Same thing in college where I can remember seeing couples. I wasn’t in a frat so I have no sense whatsoever if there was a “hookup culture” in frats from 91-95. Plus, I went to a small, private, fairly conservative college for undegrad.

    Grad school from 99-01 was definitely a different scene. I remember the first week or two being there and going to the “dance club” type bar on campus (big state party school with a good MBA program) and seeing a bunch of girls stripping to bras and panties on stage and making out during the hot body contest. I was already familiar with this type of behavior from my club going days from 96-99, but the fact that it was a college campus was totally different from my previous college experience 5-8 years earlier. This was before I knew anyting at all about Game, female sexuality, etc. I remember getting the number of a hottie in the gym and then taking her out on a “proper date” after which nothing further happened. LOL. I probably could have just had her come over “to watch a movie” and probably gotten quite far.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Actually, the alarms didn’t start sounding re hookup culture (and also binge drinking, btw) until about ten years ago. That’s when we started seeing stories of outrageous sexual behavior in high school and even middle school, e.g. lipstick parties. This newfound promiscuity was attributed to several cultural phenomenon, including college hookup culture. The real development of hookup culture probably took place around ten years before that, but there is no exact date or year that I have found to describe its history.

      Basically, though, there were several factors which had been building for a while and created a sort of perfect storm in the 90s, allowing hookup culture to take hold:

      1. It took decades for colleges to stop acting in loco parentis after court rulings in the 60s and 70s. By the 90s, 90% of dorms had gone coed, ushering in opportunities for sex without even needing to go outside.

      2. The shifting sex ratio in college began transferring the power to males, or the top 20% of males, at around that same time.

      3. Feminism and Women’s Studies Departments still held great sway at universities (still do, in fact) and championed the positive sex movement beginning in the 90s. Freshman orientation got a lot more sexual in nature (in every way) and campuses began to sponsor sex weeks, etc.

      4. The average age at marriage was (and is) climbing.

  • Ramble

    Hope, I can understand that. And, before we get too far into this, we should probably acknowledge that we are now debating what color some hypothetical pill should be.

    With that said, The Red Pill for guys, as I understand it, is not just one that opens there eyes to a reality that was in some ways kept from them via PC lies, but one that would help them improve their sexual and romantic lives.

    Now, that same Roissy-ish Red Pill could have a similar effect on a girl, but, for a girl who is looking to really improve her romantic life, it would likely mean getting a better understanding of what it means to be feminine…which is not a major part of the Red Pill re-education.

    So, that is why I say it would be a different pill and should have a different color. But, at some point, this is probably just semantics.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted,

    “Casual” sex, as in sex before commitment happens, is a concept that encompassing a broad spectrum of behaviors. NSA sex, ONSs, sex with a partner you hope to establish a committed relationship with, etc…

    People’s values can change. Sounds to me that that is what happened with your SO. Or at least what you’re hoping has happened. But you’re obviously not entirely sure if it’s eating away at you.

    And that certainly is a difficult position to be in for you. I know how I dealt with it, though I’m not prepared to advise you to do the same. That would be irresponsible. I don’t know her.

    Here is the rub: a woman who values meaningful relationships that DID NOT limit her sexual involvement in hookup culture because she didn’t realize the “commitment” minded men didn’t like a high partner count.

    I wouldn’t be impressed with a woman who only refrained from banging lots of guys because her future SO might not be comfortable with it. I’d only be impressed with a woman who didn’t bang lots of guys because she didn’t want to bang lots of guys.

  • Iggles

    @ Charm:

    Its kind of starting to blow my mind how people literally do not question why they engage in certain behaviors. Whenever I asked someone why they do something like, continue to date a person who treats them like crap, its like the moment of cognitive dissonance. I’ll ask it in a very logical way and the moment they have to think about it….they adopt this air of annoyance or anger and call me “insensitive” or I don’t “get it”. They are right. I don’t get it. It makes no sense so I don’t see why they do it. But I’m afraid to accept that they really just don’t think about it. <—my patience with this behavior has run pretty thin. It mostly makes me angry so I stay away.

    I'm only 22 so you guys probably have decades on me, but it has to get better. Please don't tell me that people remain clueless forever. It just can't be.

    You sound like an old soul :-)

    We live in the era of Jersey Shore and Kim Kardashian. It’s amazing how many people prefer to be part of the mindless masses rather than think about their actions and in their place in the world around them.

    Personally, I think it does it better. If you don’t like the people who surround you, the only thing you can do to change that is to change who you associate with. Move to another place. Change jobs. Etc. Beyond that, there isn’t much you can do. You said you’re in your last year of school so you should have the opportunity to find you niche and get to know other like-minded people.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    J,

    JM–I’m surprised to read that you are only 28; you have a very mature outlook.

    Thanks :P

  • Need Advice

    “As to if I represent the average man? Sorry, I highly doubt it. Not only am I an introvert, a conservative, and a bit of a sexual prude it seems”

    There are plenty of men out there like you, and especially introverts.

    “I recall hearing that men take breakups harder than women, and spend more time getting over them. ”

    Despite our relationship being over, one of my exes would not allow us to break up until he had another woman in the waiting that he could immediately move in with. It seems that once men have experienced the comfort and security of a homey live-in relationship, they never want to give that up and live alone again.

  • Need Advice

    “I remember the first week or two being there and going to the “dance club” type bar on campus (big state party school with a good MBA program) and seeing a bunch of girls stripping to bras and panties on stage and making out during the hot body contest.”

    And these girls were never without boyfriends right?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Iggles,

    To me, 40 partners at the age of the 24 is a lot. I’m Gen Y btw (I’m 27). While I get men can get very weird about their girlfriends’ number, they seem to be a good match – a case of those with high partner counts pairing up. Her number still works over to less than half of his!

    I can definitely get why men place importance on girlfriends’ numbers, but yea, a former player expecting to land a discerning girl with strong relationship values just seems absurd.

  • Charm

    Wouldn’t a guy with high partner count be bored with someone with a much lower one? I don’t want to say higher count=more experience across the board, but we’d have to assume they’ve done things or learned quite a few things a person with a lower partner count hasn’t.

    They guy I know definitely prefers women who have as much as experience as he does. He told me he’d only put up with a woman with less experience if she was really attractive. Made sense to me.

  • Need Advice

    “Now, that same Roissy-ish Red Pill could have a similar effect on a girl, but, for a girl who is looking to really improve her romantic life, it would likely mean getting a better understanding of what it means to be feminine…which is not a major part of the Red Pill re-education.”

    It would help if men would open up to women about what they want out of a relationship before even going in. That would entail him being vulnerable and allowing his emotional needs to be known so that they could be met. Too many men are silent about what they really want out of their women, what kind of affection, what kind of support, etc. Lay it on the table and if we can meet your needs, we will, but we have to know what they are first.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “The thing about a median for the whole population is that it includes my 78 yo dad, who was done gathering new partners before the sexual revolution even happened. Sexual mores changed dramatically then, which I experienced, and again in the 90s, which I write about.”

    Megaman totally debunked this with the CDC study. That was in 2008, long after then, and it excludes people over 44. Those medians are accurate and relevant.

    I had thought the highest count (15+) was under 25% (I guessed around 10%), but admit I was wrong there. We can’t tell from the chat, but I would be the men that reach 30 is *much* smaller than 25%.

    This is why all this talk of “30 isn’t too high” is a bit of a delusion, a mass-apex fallacy here. HUS is very sexually liberal, and perhaps the entire set of blogs that talk about this stuff. That’s why Ted and I look like prudes… but there’s more of us than there are of you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      HUS is very sexually liberal, and perhaps the entire set of blogs that talk about this stuff. That’s why Ted and I look like prudes… but there’s more of us than there are of you.

      That’s good, if by “us” you mean about equal numbers of men and women. It’s all about compatibility. Like I said, I don’t see chaste women hunting down guys with 15-30 partners. But an Alpha chaser, or even a “female alpha” who hopes to marry a fellow alpha, can benefit from knowing where the psychopathy and aversion to marriage sets in.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    That is really interesting. People who know me IRL accuse me of living in my head, and I have a near zero tolerance for extraneous drame.

    F0r and extroverted I do spent a lot of time in my head. I think is because for me the people in my head are as real as people in real life, or even more because I know them better than most of the people I know in real life. Still I do hated when a guy wanted to play the guessing game with me: “Do you want to be with me or not? I’m to freaking busy to spent hours guessing” I don’t react well to dread in fact dread is a panty dryer a guy that kept me guessing was a guy that started to lose attraction points by the second. Again weird reaction according to the manosphere women in general love dread and guessing. I think I’m okay with being crazy on my own and not needed any more crazy in my life. ;)

  • Charm

    @Ted

    “Go with the flow” has never applied to me. I see myself as a big ass rock in a river bed. No matter how much the water rushes towards me, I will not be moved. Not to say that I am stubborn. I just like to move at my own pace and take my own time.

    @Iggles

    Old soul? Make sense. But that probably also means that this soul will continue to get older and older at a faster pace than other peoples. Sigh. I can’t wait to graduate though, but I will be studying abroad for a couple years and then upon returning I’ll be able to choose any city that I want. I’m definitely staying away from the huge ones like LA and NYC as I’d like to search for a long-term partner soon after returning. Hopefully I find that niche you speak of.

  • Jason

    “Proof that even players don’t want to settle down with a promiscuous woman, at least some of the time.

    No offense meant Jason. Just pointing out that it isn’t always about the guy having a low count, not insinuating your GF was/is promiscuous.”

    No offense taken. I met my gf in a bar, put the cocky charm on full force and pulled her the same night, so you reap what you sow. I never expected an angel, but I was just hoping that her number would be lower. Based on her number I found her to be incongruent, as she is a fairly religious catholic (I am culturally Jewish, but not religious) who went to a catholic hs and college. I’ve also first hand picked up girls on a random night out where their number was in the single digits, including me, so I was hoping for that kind of situation.

    And to your first point, in my social cirlces, which include mid 20s educated white males, I know a number of guys with counts in the 20+ range, and they all would prefer to settle down with someone not very promiscuous. It’s just the nature of the beast.

  • Need Advice

    ” Still I do hated when a guy wanted to play the guessing game with me: “Do you want to be with me or not? I’m to freaking busy to spent hours guessing” I don’t react well to dread in fact dread is a panty dryer a guy that kept me guessing was a guy that started to lose attraction points by the second. ”

    Precisely why this shy guy is losing points with me by the second and the pro-active initiator is seeming more and more attractive.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    they all would prefer to settle down with someone not very promiscuous. It’s just the nature of the beast.

    I know plenty of guys who would prefer to retire at 40 on a tropical island…

  • Charm

    Anacoana

    Its not weird, I don’t think. I find that people who don’t have much going on like to fill that space with silly games. The amount of time a lot of people dedicate to just drama is mind blowing. The way I see it, I could be doing something more beneficial like reading a book or discussing ideas or something. My time is way too valuable to be playing games with immature men. Someone might think they’re “keeping me guessing” but little do they know, I’ve already moved on. Lol.

    I too live in my head. Especially for an extrovert. I find that I can be really deep into thought about numerous things all the time and, while I’d love to discuss it with a like-minded individual, mulling it over on my own always seemed to have to suffice. I wish that wasn’t true.

  • VD

    “Now if I go out with him and he turns out to be a jerk then the Peanut Gallery will hold placards that read, “See! Women prefer jerks over nice guys!” Its not that. Its just that I responded to a pro-active initiator who didn’t make me feel like I was bothering him. “

    It is precisely that. You are confusing the “Why” with the “What”. In the scenario you envision, you are still preferring a jerk over a nice guy. You are simply doing so because you are responding “to a pro-active initiator who didn’t make me feel like I was bothering him”.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Susan, men do feel deeply and are very emotional. However, a lot of times this does not prevent them from moving on with life, getting married and having kids. Those men who did not would be reproductive failures from an evolutionary perspective.

    My husband has an incredible depth of emotions, and probably was quite emo for a long while about the girls who broke his heart. When we first started talking, he told me the stories, and he probably was still nursing some old residual wounds. But he was quite ready to start a new relationship, and had been keeping an eye out for over two years for a new girl.

    This is probably highly variable depending on timing and individual personalities. If a girl senses that she is not the primary romantic focus, then she should move on.

    Luckily, men are not very subtle in this regard. When I was younger I had a crush on a guy, and I told him so. He said he had his eyes on another girl. I wasn’t going to waste my time on a guy who didn’t like me. I might have gotten rejected, but I definitely appreciated the honesty.

    Also, usually, the better looking the new girl is than the old girl, the easier the guy will get over his old flame. In the failed-crush case, the girl was pale, brunette, elegantly pretty and had a totally different look than me since I’m Chinese. In my husband’s case, apparently he thinks I’m really hot and digs my facial structure / body type, so in no time at all he totally forgot about the ex’s. :P

  • http://deleted Jason

    Also on the note of you reap what you sow, while it is not too difficult to find ‘good’ girls, as I would have some idea of where to look (although I could use help with this), it is exceedingly difficult to find good girls who meet my attractiveness criteria and are available. And as a high T male, the activities I enjoy, like sports, lifting weights, poker, etc. are unlikely to land me in the presence of any girls, let alone good girls. So I have to go where I know I’ll find single, attractive girls…clubs and bars, and hope to snag an albatross.

    Take for example my work (I personally wouldn’t want to meet someone at work for obvious reasons, but this is just an example)…I work in a male dominated engineering company, and the few young, attractive females (whom I would think score much higher on the good girl scale based on selection bias) on the scene are ALL married. I’m talking girls with ages from 23-28. Guys knew that they had a catch on their hands, and they locked it up FAST.

  • Mike C

    No offense taken. I met my gf in a bar, put the cocky charm on full force and pulled her the same night, so you reap what you sow. I never expected an angel, but I was just hoping that her number would be lower. Based on her number I found her to be incongruent, as she is a fairly religious catholic (I am culturally Jewish, but not religious) who went to a catholic hs and college. *******I’ve also first hand picked up girls on a random night out where their number was in the single digits, including me, so I was hoping for that kind of situation.*******

    Just speculating, but you either are a damn good looking guy, have pretty tight game, or possibly both.

    Either way, no matter. I’m highlighting this because what you say fully supports what I’ve been saying over and over and over, and people always want to question the accuracy/veracity of it. There are some who want to sort of maintain the official position there is some super large contingent of women who simply WILL NOT have sex with ANY guy on a first, second, or third meeting. And my position is, they meet the right guy (very attractive and hits all the right attraction switches) on the right night and there is a good chance those panties are coming off. If formaplaya is reading and chooses to comment, I’m sure he’d back that up 100%. There is no way on Earth that guys who hit 40, 50, 100, 200 do so simply by having sex with corresponding 50, 100 count women. A good chunk of that number comes from sub 10 girls who simply run into an A guy and act in the emotion of the moment.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ve also first hand picked up girls on a random night out where their number was in the single digits, including me, so I was hoping for that kind of situation.*******

      Just speculating, but you either are a damn good looking guy, have pretty tight game, or possibly both.

      Or the girls divided their number by 3, as the guys always claim here? :)

      I’m also curious – do guys ask a girl’s number during a ONS? Why would you do this? I thought that was a conversation that might be held when thinking about getting exclusive, or perhaps discussing the timing of sex. I find it odd that a guy who got laid 50% of the time on weekends with a new random asked for that information, much less received it.

  • http://deleted Jason

    @Mike C

    “Grad school from 99-01 was definitely a different scene. I remember the first week or two being there and going to the “dance club” type bar on campus (big state party school with a good MBA program) and seeing a bunch of girls stripping to bras and panties on stage and making out during the hot body contest. I was already familiar with this type of behavior from my club going days from 96-99, but the fact that it was a college campus was totally different from my previous college experience 5-8 years earlier. This was before I knew anyting at all about Game, female sexuality, etc. I remember getting the number of a hottie in the gym and then taking her out on a “proper date” after which nothing further happened. LOL. I probably could have just had her come over “to watch a movie” and probably gotten quite far.”

    Oh man does that last part ring true to me from just a few months back. As I’ve kind of explained my story on here, I graduated college about 8 months ago, and 6 months ago I moved half way across the country, to a big city, for my current job.

    When I initally moved to my current city, I made a concious effort in the first month or two to try to actually do things ‘proper’ with girls (in spite of everything I already knew about the SMP), and it was LOL worthy. Instead of being somewhat of a dick, looking for same night lays and using numbers as a means of just trying to get a girl over to my place (and then decide on the direction of the relationship on my own terms), I was selective about the numbers that I asked for and tried to go on real dates. The very INSTANT I would call a girl and ask her out on a real date, I KNEW my value plummeted. No matter how alpha I am, with a vast majority of girls today, this strategy is such a weak play that it is hard to overcome. Actual dating is completely foreign now and girls actually look at you like you are weird when you try to do that.

    So in all, I just said screw it. Why should I waste time, money and effort into trying to do things properly when I know I can go out and have sex with girls using my old methods. It was a short lived experiment that pretty much proved points that I was secretly hopinh to not be true.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      So in all, I just said screw it. Why should I waste time, money and effort into trying to do things properly when I know I can go out and have sex with girls using my old methods. It was a short lived experiment that pretty much proved points that I was secretly hopinh to not be true.

      Self-fulfilling prophecy here with your new girl?

      You are new to HUS, but last week we designed a t-shirt that reads:

      I ran Dark Game and all I got was this lousy slut.

      I’m taking orders, no offense.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Mike C, I wonder how much of the “sub 10 girl going for same night lay with A guy” is due to alcohol lowering inhibitions.

    Susan had a post about how most hook-ups involve alcohol. I don’t smoke or drink, and I never went to bars or clubs. I’ve never done casual nor come anywhere close to it.

  • http://deleted Jason

    Mike C

    “Just speculating, but you either are a damn good looking guy, have pretty tight game, or possibly both.

    Either way, no matter. I’m highlighting this because what you say fully supports what I’ve been saying over and over and over, and people always want to question the accuracy/veracity of it. There are some who want to sort of maintain the official position there is some super large contingent of women who simply WILL NOT have sex with ANY guy on a first, second, or third meeting. And my position is, they meet the right guy (very attractive and hits all the right attraction switches) on the right night and there is a good chance those panties are coming off. If formaplaya is reading and chooses to comment, I’m sure he’d back that up 100%. There is no way on Earth that guys who hit 40, 50, 100, 200 do so simply by having sex with corresponding 50, 100 count women. A good chunk of that number comes from sub 10 girls who simply run into an A guy and act in the emotion of the moment.”

    In terms of facial structure and looks, I’d say I’m about an 8, but I also am big into weight lifting, and keep in very good shape. I’d be willing to send Susan a pic or two to be a judge if it helps with discussion. I honestly think looks only play a small part, although some guys would argue that I say this because I already am fairly good looking. I will say though, that I think I have very tight game. I’m not always 100% on, but when I am, it’s almost as if I can’t be stopped.

    And as for your second paragraph, I completely agree. Any person who argues against this fact has either never been that guy to pull a girl like that, or has never been in the presence of really tight game. Yes, it’s harder to find a girl like this, of course, but it’s not out of the question at all. It’s amazing what people in general, not just ‘good’ girls, will rationalize when you hit on multitudes of their attraction triggers.

  • http://deleted Jason

    @ Hope

    “I wonder how much of the “sub 10 girl going for same night lay with A guy” is due to alcohol lowering inhibitions.

    Susan had a post about how most hook-ups involve alcohol. I don’t smoke or drink, and I never went to bars or clubs. I’ve never done casual nor come anywhere close to it.”

    Being in the field I would say that alcohol plays a big part in this, although personally I would downgrade a guy who uses his and his target’s inebriation as a crutch. I don’t enjoy drinking for the sake of drinking, and I’m big into fitness, so I maybe get drunk drunk once every 3 months or so. And I can proudly say I have never taken home a random girl who was completely wasted, as I don’t find that attractive in the slightest, and I’ve stopped guys from doing that.

    I guess I kind of like the ‘challenge’ of matching wits and seeing if my frame can overcome hers, rather than using alcohol as the reason I was able to land someone.

  • VD

    “There are some who want to sort of maintain the official position there is some super large contingent of women who simply WILL NOT have sex with ANY guy on a first, second, or third meeting. And my position is, they meet the right guy (very attractive and hits all the right attraction switches) on the right night and there is a good chance those panties are coming off.

    Absolutely. Between ovulation, breakups, travel, and alcohol, the vast majority of women will be willing to have a ONS. I don’t care who a woman is, catch her at the right point in her cycle on vacation after her boyfriend broke up with her, and she’s yours for the price of three magaritas.

    Also, single women love having sex on vacation. Travel represents a free pass from accountability and the judgment of their social circles, so they’re actively looking for it in a way they seldom will at home.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Well, this is where we get into semantics. A girl who has sex with a guy the night she met him is not a “good” girl, IMO. Could be she has a low number, but she is definitely NOT relationship material.

  • http://deleted Jason

    @JM

    “Well, this is where we get into semantics. A girl who has sex with a guy the night she met him is not a “good” girl, IMO. Could be she has a low number, but she is definitely NOT relationship material.”

    I don’t agree with this at all. I’d say it is less likely, but in no way is it a definite NO. There are too many possible extenuating circumstances.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    VD,

    I don’t care who a woman is, catch her at the right point in her cycle on vacation after her boyfriend broke up with her, and she’s yours for the price of three magaritas.

    You’re the married guy who looked like you were in a Duran Duran cover band back in the 80′s who has the Alpha, Beta, Delta, blah blah blah theory? Idk. I can’t see myself marrying if I had that opinion of women.

    Of course, women who hang out in bars and clubs letting strange men buy them drinks… are generally not relationship material.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I don’t agree with this at all. I’d say it is less likely, but in no way is it a definite NO. There are too many possible extenuating circumstances.

    It’s cool, bro. You don’t have to agree. I support your right to be wrong.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    There are no extenuating circumstances. If a girl fucks strangers, then you shouldn’t date her.

  • http://deleted Jason

    JM

    “Of course, women who hang out in bars and clubs letting strange men buy them drinks… are generally not relationship material.”

    Come on now, this line of thinking is downright absurd. You added ‘generally’ in there to strawman your arguement, but this makes you sound like you have issues. I’ve personally known ATTRACTIVE virgins and 1 count girls (in their early 20s) who occassionally go to bars and get attention from random men. Everyone enjoys an ego boost from time to time, no matter how ‘pure’.

  • http://deleted Jason

    “There are no extenuating circumstances. If a girl fucks strangers, then you shouldn’t date her.”

    I don’t know your backstory, but the way you use absolutes makes you sounds like a religious zealot or an extremely bitter beta.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jason,

    I’m not fighting straw men. Or straw women even. Women who feed off of easy validation from inebriated strangers sound shallow to me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jason,

    I don’t believe in gods, alphas, or betas. And I’m not bitter. I just like a woman with values. And standards.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Jesus M – “People’s values can change. Sounds to me that that is what happened with your SO. Or at least what you’re hoping has happened. But you’re obviously not entirely sure if it’s eating away at you.”

    Close. I am 100% sure her values changed. Like I said, she wants me to pass on MY values to her children, which says a lot. I’m not worried that we don’t have the same values at all. I am literally concerned that her past behavior may cause issue for us down the road, regardless of her intentions. So much of this stuff is subconscious or even biological, that I simply cannot gauge how much intellect changes the equation.

    Put another way: because she once was promiscuous, is that tendency forever part of her “hind brain”.

    The other thing I worry about is: will she get bored with me because I am not the asshole type she is accustomed to. I get that I have a lot to offer, and I believe she is with me because she wants what I have to offer. But, since it is so different than what she has seemingly looked for in the past, is it legit or an attempt to “be” legit. Not sure if that makes sense. :P

    OTC – “That’s why Ted and I look like prudes… but there’s more of us than there are of you.”

    And the funny thing is, I am the farthest thing in the world from a dictionary prude. I have VERY conservative outlooks about casual sex, but I am very open to sexual experiences of all kinds, in the confines of a committed relationship. ;-)

    Charm – ““Go with the flow” has never applied to me. I see myself as a big ass rock in a river bed. No matter how much the water rushes towards me, I will not be moved. Not to say that I am stubborn. I just like to move at my own pace and take my own time.”

    Have you ever taken a pers0nality test? I swear you sound like an introvert. (again, not a bad thing to me.)

    I will move my “big ass rock” from time to time if I feel there is ample evidence to support the change. But man, for me it sometimes takes an overwhelming amount of evidence to convince me.

    Mike C – “There are some who want to sort of maintain the official position there is some super large contingent of women who simply WILL NOT have sex with ANY guy on a first, second, or third meeting. And my position is, they meet the right guy (very attractive and hits all the right attraction switches) on the right night and there is a good chance those panties are coming off. “

    But do you realize that what you are saying is: ALL women WILL cheat on their husband/BF given the right set of circumstances. I’m not saying you are right or wrong, but that would be a VERY bitter pill for everyone to swallow…

    And, it also tends to support the extreme “all women are cheating sluts” meme often found in the manosphere.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’m also curious – do guys ask a girl’s number during a ONS? Why would you do this? I thought that was a conversation that might be held when thinking about getting exclusive, or perhaps discussing the timing of sex. I find it odd that a guy who got laid 50% of the time on weekends with a new random asked for that information, much less received it.

    Yea, that didn’t sound right. But I was giving the benefit of the doubt.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    I would wear that shirt in public if most people wouldn’t assume it meant I was calling my SO a slut. :P

    If you ever do a “meet and greet”, I think we should be required to all wear one. It would be amusing to see all the “muggles” wondering what kind of convention we were having. LOL

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted

      If you ever do a “meet and greet”, I think we should be required to all wear one. It would be amusing to see all the “muggles” wondering what kind of convention we were having. LOL

      Haha, I love that idea! Let me put in a request for t-shirt slogans. If anyone has any ideas, shoot them to me. I’ll even pick a winner and give a prize.

  • Iggles

    @ OffTheCuff:

    This is why all this talk of “30 isn’t too high” is a bit of a delusion, a mass-apex fallacy here. HUS is very sexually liberal, and perhaps the entire set of blogs that talk about this stuff. That’s why Ted and I look like prudes… but there’s more of us than there are of you.

    I agree. 30 is a lot! But it’s all relative. Someone upthread mentioned BJs on his college campus were given out like handshake. If that’s your frame, then of course 30 isn’t high to anyone in that environment.

    @ Anacaona:

    Still I do hated when a guy wanted to play the guessing game with me: “Do you want to be with me or not? I’m to freaking busy to spent hours guessing” I don’t react well to dread in fact dread is a panty dryer a guy that kept me guessing was a guy that started to lose attraction points by the second. Again weird reaction according to the manosphere women in general love dread and guessing.

    I’m totally the same way! It makes me insecure to not know where I stand. I hate feeling that way and flaky guys make me lose interest fast. My boyfriend was very upfront about how he felt about me and it made me like him more — not less!

    @ Charm:

    @Iggles

    Old soul? Make sense. But that probably also means that this soul will continue to get older and older at a faster pace than other peoples. Sigh. I can’t wait to graduate though, but I will be studying abroad for a couple years and then upon returning I’ll be able to choose any city that I want. I’m definitely staying away from the huge ones like LA and NYC as I’d like to search for a long-term partner soon after returning. Hopefully I find that niche you speak of.

    Perhaps. But I view it as you’re at a higher maturity level than your peers. Eventually some will catch up, but I don’t think it’ll make you prematurely geriatric ;-)

    The upside is you can avoid the mistakes the people around you are making and skip to the head of the class. One needn’t have a string of messy relationships/hook up to know which guys to avoid if they want a LTR. Also, another perk of being introspective is that you can lay the groundwork for creating the life that you want because you know what you want. You’re already doing that right now and I think that’s a great thing!

  • http://deleted Jason

    Susan

    “I’m also curious – do guys ask a girl’s number during a ONS? Why would you do this? I thought that was a conversation that might be held when thinking about getting exclusive, or perhaps discussing the timing of sex. I find it odd that a guy who got laid 50% of the time on weekends with a new random asked for that information, much less received it.”

    Good point, but I’ve actually only had 3 or 4 true ONS, where I’ve never seen or talked to the girl again. If I was willing to take a girl home on the first night, then I was always willing to try to get her in the rotation. And when it comes to things of this nature, I am absolutely not afraid to ask their number the next morning, so to answer your questions, most men wouldn’t, I would and have.

    And for clarity, I never said I DID get laid 50% of weekends. I said that IF that was my goal for the weekend (and a lot of the time it wasn’t for various reasons) I estimated that I had about a 50% chance.

  • http://thegatewayboyfriend.blogspot.com Dan_Brodribb

    @ Susan
    1. Why can’t one-itis be something that continues after a relationship ends, especially if the guy was not the one to end it?

    One-itis can and does continue after a relationship ends. Sometimes it shows up in the form of drunken phone calls, emails, showing up work, begging for another chances, promises to go to counselling, and on rare occasions…umm…murder.

    Most women don’t respond positively to those things.

    Many men understand this, so they don’t do them. Unfortunately, male grieving isn’t something that we are a) taught to do or b) really supported in our culture so a lot of guys just say they’re over it whether they are or not.

    3. I recall hearing that men take breakups harder than women, and spend more time getting over them

    It might be true. Every person grieves differently. Some need space. Some need supportive friends. Some need activity. People who have the things they need tend to work through their loss better, but it still takes as long as it takes.

    I think though, women can’t always tell whether or not a guy is still grieving. Partly because we don’t know how to do it, partly because we don’t always admit or even realize it, and partly because our gift for compartementalizing relationships means a lot of us won’t let one-itis for one person stop us from getting involved with someone else.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dan Brodribb

      Thank you, your comment on breakups was very helpful. That all makes a lot of sense to me. It’s the compartmentalization that I was missing. Do you think that a woman who gets involved with a guy still grieving in that way is entering a risky situation? I compared it to being the first woman a newly divorced man takes out to dinner…If you’re grieving, and enter a new relationship with a woman, can you fall hard for her, or hang in there until you’re truly emotionally available? IDK, I think this sounds risky for either sex.

  • http://deleted Jason

    “Self-fulfilling prophecy here with your new girl?

    You are new to HUS, but last week we designed a t-shirt that reads:

    I ran Dark Game and all I got was this lousy slut.

    I’m taking orders, no offense.”

    Possibly. I also don’t completely know what comprises Dark Game, but I doubt that I would qualify. I don’t lie, I don’t get drunk or take home really drunk girls (see my subsequent post) and I stay congruent with my values.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      OK, thanks for clarifying on the 50%.

      Being somewhat of a dick, looking for same night lays and using numbers as a means of just trying to get a girl over to my place (and then decide on the direction of the relationship on my own terms)

      = Dark Game, or Asshole Game. IMO, the most alpha guys never have to do this. They get the date the traditional way with no trouble. It’s more of a challenge, and certainly women in the market for a ONS won’t reward less sexual aggression. If you want to meet someone with a low count, you are extremely unlikely to find her in a bar. Also, I’m not saying you’ve taken home blackout chicks, but 85% of hookups occur between two drunk people. If you’re finding women in a place where nearly everyone is drunk by 2 a.m., then I don’t see how you’ve avoided drunk women.

      Look, this isn’t meant just for you, but I don’t want this discussion to go off the rails with the same old argument about whether all women are sluts at heart. The women push back hard on that here because none of them are, and frankly, I believe you would find a warm welcome with this argument at Rollo’s, who is a key proponent of this theory.

      Like I said early in the thread, the ratio of her lays to yours strikes me as reasonable, but if my math is correct, she had P in V sex with 14 men at college, and that easily puts her in the most promiscuous group (top 3%). If you’d gone to school with her, she might well have been one of your 40. I doubt she thinks a single one of those lays was worth it. Women need to start understanding that feminism didn’t kill the sexual double standard, and fast.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    My SO is from NH. I would be willing to plan a trip up north to swing by and meet some of my HUS peeps. Although I’m not sure I can convince her to go anywhere in Mass. I never heard the term “masshole” before our trip to NH the first time. It seems people from NH think Bostonians can’t drive. :-p

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      I’d love to meet you and your SO! She’s right about Boston drivers though. I feel like I risk my life every time I leave the driveway. Also, Massholes? Yup, plenty to be found at any Boston sports game and surrounding bars.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jason,

    Asking the morning after? And you think you’re getting an accurate response?

  • Iggles

    Jason,

    First you said this:

    it is exceedingly difficult to find good girls who meet my attractiveness criteria and are available. And as a high T male, the activities I enjoy, like sports, lifting weights, poker, etc. are unlikely to land me in the presence of any girls, let alone good girls. So I have to go where I know I’ll find single, attractive girls…clubs and bars, and hope to snag an albatross.

    And then later you wrote this:

    The very INSTANT I would call a girl and ask her out on a real date, I KNEW my value plummeted. No matter how alpha I am, with a vast majority of girls today, this strategy is such a weak play that it is hard to overcome. Actual dating is completely foreign now and girls actually look at you like you are weird when you try to do that.

    It seems to me it’s the type of girl you’re pursuing (bar flys who are okay having ONS with alphas) is a big reason why “dating” doesn’t fly. They’re either not used to it or not looking for it. If they are open to a relationship, these type of girls are using sex as a bargaining chip. It’s how they get in the door, so another approach is foreign to them.

    Looking for a low number count from these girls is a like a needle in a haystack. “Good girls” – in the sense of low numbers and relationship readiness – are not trolling for strange in the club every weekend.

    To find the type of girls who DO expect to be asked on a date before considering dating/sleeping with a guy you should look elsewhere. That type of girl is a much safer bet for a LTR or marriage. She doesn’t let her “tingle” guide her through life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Iggles

      I just want to say that I am very happy you stuck around. You leave some great comments.

  • http://deleted Jason

    JM,

    I haven’t always asked, just sometimes, and of course they could be lying, I understand that, but I have a very keen read on people and I’m fairly confident in my assessment of a girl’s answer.

    Look, you’re skeptical of what I’m saying because your reality can’t imagine someone doing some of the things I’ve done. That’s fair, but I have no reason to lie and waste my time on here. I am just a very introspective person and I enjoy talking about this stuff.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jason,

    Um, no. That’s not why I’m skeptical. I’ve had ONSs. And first night sex. I just decided it’s not for me.

    I’m skeptical exactly because I spent my summer having a great deal of “success” with short term game.

  • http://deleted Jason

    Iggles,

    I think you and I are completely on the same page, but if you look closer at what I wrote, I say that it’s been very difficult to find that ‘good’ girl who has the level of physical beauty that I seek. IME, the good ones who are also very attractive have mostly been taken, and again it’s like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Even if someone is a great girl and amazing person, if I’m not attracted then I’m not attracted, and I can’t help that.

  • VD

    “Idk. I can’t see myself marrying if I had that opinion of women.”

    You are innocent, my friend. All are fallen. Male weaknesses simply happen to be different than female weaknesses, but we all have them. As to marriage, it really depends upon what you are looking for in a woman. And no matter who you marry, she will have weaknesses, she will be sinful, she will do and say things that are stupid and things that are intentionally harmful… because she is human. If you are fortunate, if you have chosen wisely, you will love her madly anyhow.

    I’m not fighting straw men. Or straw women even. Women who feed off of easy validation from inebriated strangers sound shallow to me.

    All women are shallow by male standards, or close enough to all as makes no difference. As Camille Paglia says, the reason there are no great female rock guitarists – or philosophers, for that matter – is the same reason there are no female serial killers. NB: this is rhetoric, not statistical precision, on Paglia’s part.

    But do you realize that what you are saying is: ALL women WILL cheat on their husband/BF given the right set of circumstances. I’m not saying you are right or wrong, but that would be a VERY bitter pill for everyone to swallow…

    Not quite correct. ALL women ARE PERFECTLY CAPABLE of cheating on their husband/BF given the right set of circumstances. And even so, the statistics show that most women don’t cheat on their husbands and most men don’t cheat on their wives. There are no certainties in human action, there are only statistical probabilities.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I have a very keen read on people and I’m fairly confident in my assessment of a girl’s answer.

    It’s cool, bro. You’ll understand if that doesn’t cut it for me, I’m sure.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Ted
    ” I never heard the term “masshole” before our trip to NH the first time. It seems people from NH think Bostonians can’t drive. :-p”

    It wasn’t too bad when I was living in Brookline. I spent a whole year biking everywhere in the city without a helmet and feeling perfectly safe. The biggest thing is that their streets are messed up because they were all laid out for carriages and never really changed, so the streets are narrow and lead to odd things like there’s one street that literally loops around and intersects itself.

    Compare that to Chicago…. I got a helmet the first week biking around this city, and our streets here are wider and WOULD be safer. But drivers here don’t care and are assholes.

  • http://deleted Jason

    JM,

    Sorry that I pegged you wrong then. Like I said, I’m fully aware of a girl’s incentive to lie in a situation like that, but I’m also confident in my own reads, not to say that I’m right 100% though.

  • http://deleted Jason

    JM

    “It’s cool, bro. You’ll understand if that doesn’t cut it for me, I’m sure.”

    Of course, it’s anecdotal evidence to you and nothing concrete at all. I can only share what I know and how I processed things at the time. I also made a part time living of reading people during my college years (live poker), which again leads to my personal reads.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    VD,

    I’m many things but innocent isn’t one of them.

    I don’t believe in sin, but I do believe we’re all imperfect. That’s different from saying that all or even most women would fuck a stranger given the time of the month and her relationship status.

    And I don’t know Camille, though even if I did, I wouldn’t accept the notion that all or even most women are superficial by male standards.

    I wouldn’t marry if I believed all that. I wouldn’t consider monogamy or commitment of any flavor.

  • Iggles

    Jason,

    I understand you only want a girl who meets your attractiveness standards (we all want/need partners we’re hot for), however that still doesn’t make your current approach a winning one. Pulling girls from ONS and then from those woman trying to jumpstart a relationship will get you where you currently are — dating an amazing, attractive woman who is great in bed but her one “flaw” is that she’s too promiscuous for your tastes, even though you’ve been with over 40 women.

    Just calling it like I see it. You can try the same thing over and over, and then agonize that the results are the same! You have to try another way — coffee shops, meet up groups, online dating (the horror! /snark), etc. Girls who hook up with strangers in bar generally will have a high partner count. It’s just the way it is! Luckily for you, bars are NOT the only place to find attractive women.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com/2012/02/she-feels-so-damn-good.html Ted D

    VD – but every human is perfectly capable of killing as well. If we are talking about what someone is capable of, I honestly don’t see the point of the conversation. We are all capable of doing everything. But that is NOT thensamemasmsaying every single woman on planet earth WILL fall for game. What I think you are saying is:
    Every woman is capable of falling for game. But that also implies that many will never fall for game at all.

    It kinda strikes me as yelling fire in a crowded theater.

  • Iggles

    Meant to say, “You can’t try the same thing over and over”

    Typos :-/

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com/2012/02/she-feels-so-damn-good.html Ted D

    LoB – I’m from Western PA. We pick on Ohio drivers. :p

    If it makes you feel any better, she said they aren’t fond of people from Vermont either. I believe she called them “Berkenstock wearing tree-huggers”. I thought those came from California. Lol

    I’m actually surprised just how snooty people from New England are sometimes. Since PA seems to be the buffer between NE and the south, I always assumed we were snobby. But I swear a few of her friends looked at me like I might sprout a second head when she told them I was born and raised in Pittsburgh. And these are not Upper Class people. She is from the wilderness of the lakes region. No lie, I thought we were in West Virginia a few times judging by all the jacked up trucks with gun racks in them!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m actually surprised just how snooty people from New England are sometimes.

      We are very reserved, it’s true. Well, I’m not, but I’m kind of a weirdo around here. Even my kids get embarrassed by my conversations with random strangers. They are both quite reserved by comparison.

      As for snooty, you don’t know what that is until you’ve been at a dinner party with Cambridge liberals. :)

  • http://deleted Jason

    Susan,

    “= Dark Game, or Asshole Game. IMO, the most alpha guys never have to do this. They get the date the traditional way with no trouble. It’s more of a challenge, and certainly women in the market for a ONS won’t reward less sexual aggression. If you want to meet someone with a low count, you are extremely unlikely to find her in a bar. Also, I’m not saying you’ve taken home blackout chicks, but 85% of hookups occur between two drunk people. If you’re finding women in a place where nearly everyone is drunk by 2 a.m., then I don’t see how you’ve avoided drunk women.

    Look, this isn’t meant just for you, but I don’t want this discussion to go off the rails with the same old argument about whether all women are sluts at heart. The women push back hard on that here because none of them are, and frankly, I believe you would find a warm welcome with this argument at Rollo’s, who is a key proponent of this theory.”

    I’ll admit to having some level of asshole game, but that isn’t a front, it’s just an extension of who I really am. I’m not the nicest guy on the planet, I would never claim to be, but I also treat close friends and lovers very well. If what I do is considered dark game, then so be it, but I don’t even know what term would describe the liars, cheaters and extreme manipulators out there.

    Also, I havn’t completely avoided drunk women, but a number of my encounters have been completely sober or in a state where only a few drinks have been had. I’ve turned down more than a handful of girls through my college years who were too drunk for my taste, as I didn’t find that attractive.

    I also understand your second paragraph there, and for the record, I don’t consider all women sluts, or anything like that. I can only go by my own experience and what I’ve seen firsthand though. If traditional dating is that hard for a guy like me, who claims to be able to get women, I can only imagine how difficult it is for the nice guys out there. That’s all I’ll say on that if you want to curb that discussion.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      If traditional dating is that hard for a guy like me, who claims to be able to get women, I can only imagine how difficult it is for the nice guys out there.

      I think traditional dating with low count women, including pretty ones (I know some!) is going to be harder than getting ONSs from higher count women. They’ve already demonstrated they are selective about their sexual partners, and their mating strategy is generally geared to long-term.

      I do agree, by the way, with the general statement by Vox that we are all capable of just about everything. And that includes most or all women being capable of ONSs. (I’m currently reading a novel that begins with a nun giving birth to twins!) But some women have the conditions for that choice met much sooner than others. I think Iggles gave you good advice on that point.

      You seem like a good guy – even if you say you are a bit of a natural dick. I certainly don’t think you’re a Dark Triad psychopath – just that you act like kind of a douche with women, based on your description. It might be worth experimenting with a slightly different approach in different kinds of venues.

      Anyway, I still say give this woman a shot. You might also consider telling her very honestly how you feel about this, and see how she responds. I think the way she feels about those past experiences could tell you a lot. Frankly, I think the potential baggage from the previous BF could be more of a problem than random hookups back in college. Hard to say.

  • VD

    I don’t know Camille, though even if I did, I wouldn’t accept the notion that all or even most women are superficial by male standards.

    If you aren’t even familiar with La Paglia, your opinion is entirely irrelevant. Seriously.

  • Iggles

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    VD,

    I’m many things but innocent isn’t one of them.

    I don’t believe in sin, but I do believe we’re all imperfect. That’s different from saying that all or even most women would fuck a stranger given the time of the month and her relationship status.

    I agree. I don’t care how “hot” a guy is, there’s no way I’d hook up with a stranger! Even drunk, don’t see it happening. This is an example where generalities are problematic.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com/2012/02/she-feels-so-damn-good.html Ted D

    Susan – in the spirit of NAWALT (NAMALT?)
    “I compared it to being the first woman a newly divorced man takes out to dinner…”
    My SO was the first woman I asked out after my divorce. In fact, because both our soon to be exes we’re out of state, we were dating well before our divorces were final. But, I had also been separated for months, and my SO had only been back with her now exhusband for about 4 months after their initial separation. Literally, they were separated for almost a year. When he found out she was moving to Pittsburgh to get a job, he wanted to “try and work it out.” she found out after the fact that he never even quit his job before he moved in. He took a 4 month sebatical, and rented a U-haul and drove away one week before it was up. She didn’t want him back, but tried the last ditch effort for her kids.

    So maybe we were both already well past getting over our previous relationships before they officially ended anyway.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      Good point. You can be done grieving a relationship long before it ends.

  • Iggles

    @Iggles

    I just want to say that I am very happy you stuck around. You leave some great comments.

    Thanks Susan! :)

  • Mike C

    But do you realize that what you are saying is: ALL women WILL cheat on their husband/BF given the right set of circumstances. I’m not saying you are right or wrong, but that would be a VERY bitter pill for everyone to swallow…

    And, it also tends to support the extreme “all women are cheating sluts” meme often found in the manosphere.

    Ted,

    I don’t believe either of those statements, and actually neither of those conclusions necessarily follows logically from my point.

    Firstly, I do believe many women when they are “in love” with their man sort of disconnect their attraction triggers to other men. Actually, it has been female commenters here that have made that point and convinced me of that. So. The same woman if single might sleep with that super attractive man on a first meeting would never do so if in a committed relationship.

    Secondly, I don’t believe in these binary categories of “good girls” and “cheating sluts”. I don’t believe in making a categorical statement like “good girls wouldn’t have sex with a guy they just met in a bar”. I don’t believe this because I have personal experience that refutes it. Its just too easy and tidy to categorize women that way, and I believe results from the cognitive dissonance of contemplating that one’s good girl was in fact capable of fucking a stranger in a bar one night. To me, the important distinction is women where this is a one-off event or a few instances versus the ones that make a pattern of it.

  • Mike C

    In terms of facial structure and looks, I’d say I’m about an 8, but I also am big into weight lifting, and keep in very good shape. I’d be willing to send Susan a pic or two to be a judge if it helps with discussion. I honestly think looks only play a small part, although some guys would argue that I say this because I already am fairly good looking. I will say though, that I think I have very tight game. I’m not always 100% on, but when I am, it’s almost as if I can’t be stopped.

    I’m not going to prod you to do that, but it might be interested in just validating. Frankly, I love it when guys like you and formerplaya show up because it tends to validate things that I’ve said that often get a skeptical eye. I think if we got a bunch more attractive, higher count men commenting, you’d see a fairly common pattern of experiences that would be hard to dispute, especially in terms of who, why, what of women responding.

    I actually think looks play a sizable component. Ha, we are having that debate here…join in:

    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/02/23/looks-count/

    FWIW, I’m 38 now. From say the age of 14 to 38 my looks have varied substantially from short geeky looking nerd with glasses and braces (freshman year of high school) to looking like I was sculpted from stone. My peak look was probably around 32-33 when I was 6’3″ at around 245 and 9-10% bodyfat, and tanning 2-3 times a week. I noticed the difference in female attention over the years depending on how I looked at that moment in time. Just another example. I started dating my GF in 2006. From 2006 through 2009, I pretty much stayed at 245-250 consistently wearing 36″ pants. Let’s just say I didn’t hurt for women checking me out in the gym. Since 2009, I’ve been working a brutal schedule that essentially is 2 full-time jobs with 4 hours of sleep. I’ve been pretty much gaining bodyfat at a rate of 1-1.5 pound per month so I’m 290ish right now. Thankfully I’m tall, and carry a lot of muscle so the fat can kind of distribute itself halfway decent. Still, I look like shit compared to what I looked like 3-4 years ago. The amount of attention and immediate IOIs I get have dropped off a cliff. If I were single again, my first priority would be geting back down to 245-250 before even trying to refine a single aspect of Game (relationship Game is different than pickup Game IMO).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Are you trying to piss me off by linking to Rollo twice in one thread? ;)

      Seriously, some of the convos here belong there. The threads there and at Badger’s recently are perfect for them, and not for HUS. We need to do a bit of dividing and conquering, I think.

  • http://deleted Jason

    Susan,

    “I think traditional dating with low count women, including pretty ones (I know some!) is going to be harder than getting ONSs from higher count women. They’ve already demonstrated they are selective about their sexual partners, and their mating strategy is generally geared to long-term.”

    Maybe I’ve just been looking for the holy grail. The good girl that I flip one night cuz she is powerless to resist me and who I also fall crazy for. Can’t blame a guy for wishing haha.

    “I do agree, by the way, with the general statement by Vox that we are all capable of just about everything. And that includes most or all women being capable of ONSs. (I’m currently reading a novel that begins with a nun giving birth to twins!) But some women have the conditions for that choice met much sooner than others. I think Iggles gave you good advice on that point.”

    Agree on all counts.

    “You seem like a good guy – even if you say you are a bit of a natural dick. I certainly don’t think you’re a Dark Triad psychopath – just that you act like kind of a douche with women, based on your description. It might be worth experimenting with a slightly different approach in different kinds of venues.”

    I think this is pretty accurate actually. I’ll take ‘douche’ in the fondest form of the word.

    “Anyway, I still say give this woman a shot. You might also consider telling her very honestly how you feel about this, and see how she responds. I think the was she feels about those past experiences could tell you a lot. Frankly, I think the potential baggage from the previous BF is more worrisome than random hookups back in college. Hard to say.”

    I will and I did have this talk, just last night (I’m tired today). She responded just in the way you said she should, which I took as a very good sign. I’ve just been speaking in generalities with these posts today, and it’s been lively discussion.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      I do say douche with fondness. I can see that you are genuinely trying to make this work, and seeking help and advice from others. I commend that. I hope you’ll stick around, keep us posted, and chime in when you feel inclined. You’re obvs a smart guy and you have a lot going for you.

  • http://deleted Jason

    And I really need to learn how to do in-line quotes. I feel like an internet n00b.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    If you aren’t even familiar with La Paglia, your opinion is entirely irrelevant. Seriously.

    I doubt she’s familiar with me, and I forgive her for it…

  • J

    FWIW–I tend to think of Camille Paglia as a man in a lesbian’s body–and not a very nice man at that. She should just grow a penis and have done with it; I strongly suspect that she wishes she could–truly, no snark about that.

  • Escoffier

    parts of this discussion remind me of a line from the movie War of the Roses. Kathleen Turner meets Michael Douglas for the first time and within and hour or so they have a mad, passionate sex romp, after which, exhausted, she says “If this relationship lasts, this will have been the most romantic moment of my life. If it doesn’t, I’m a complete slut.”

  • Ted D

    Mike C – “The same woman if single might sleep with that super attractive man on a first meeting would never do so if in a committed relationship”

    I think this is exactly where I’m stuck right now. Between believing the statement above, and believing that there are two types of woman: slutty or not slutty, to be blunt. I believe my SO is the woman above you described, and has said as much indirectly. But that concept ismsomforeign to me that I can’t wrap my head around it. I don’t understand how any person can live by two different sets of rules:
    1. How I behave when I’m single.
    2. How I behave when I’m attached.

    I have always behaved the same regardless of my relationship status.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Traditional dating is not very romantic when applied to modern times. A date used to be something that took place between two people who already know each other, like students who know each other, friends of friends, or coworkers.

    My husband and I had our first dinner date over a month after we first started talking a lot to each other. It’s very difficult to go on a date with a total stranger, and generally the outcomes are not positive. Even online dating has this problem. People were not meant to get together this way.

    Girls who don’t react well to a stranger during a restaurant dating situation are not necessarily slutty and may not respond to a total dark triad cad who pushes her for the bedroom right away. I wouldn’t like to do traditional dates with a stranger either. I would want to get to know a guy slowly and over a period of time beforehand.

  • Ted D

    Sorry for the typos. I sold my soul to the devil and got an iPad2. Totally screwing up the touch screen typing. Lol

  • Iggles

    @ Jason,

    haha. It’s the HTML tag blockquotes. Copy what you want to say, paste it. At the beginning put the opening tag: <blockquote>

    At the end put the closing tag: </blockquote>

    Text editors do strange things. Hopefully what I wrote will show up. (I’m a web designer, btw..)

  • Charm

    @Ted

    1. I took the test my freshman year of college, and it said that I was extroverted but up until that point I had been a serious introverted loner. I think I decided to branch out and be more social, which I did, but ultimately, I’m back to being like I was when I was younger. I think for a time I tried to join the “college experience” like other people, but I came to realize it wasn’t for me. I really do think I actually might be an introvert considering how often I’m literally sitting somewhere quietly thinking. It happens multiples times a day to the point where I actually get annoyed when someone is making noise because they are interrupting my thought process.

    2. It too takes hell and high water to move me. I don’t just come to these decisions on a whim. I spend time considering all the pro’s/cons and how something will impact my own self worth or well being. People seem to find it really difficult to actually decided what THEY want excluding outside influences. Now that I think about it, I spend quite a bit of time reflecting on almost every new thing that I am exposed to.

    @Iggles

    Is it odd that I have a rough draft of how I’d like my life to go? Lol, I have a tendency to always make sure I have a least the next few years figured out. I’ve found that observing other people and learning about their experiences helps me to avoid making the same decisions. Still can’t believe how people fall into the same traps that their parents, siblings, friends etc fall into when it comes to people.

  • Wudang

    I was under the impression that for men it took longer to get over a LTR than it did for a woman. But maybe that is only the case when he does not find someone new. Maybe when he finds someone new having renewed access to spread his seed makes him get over it very fast. And maybe women only get over those they deem of lesser value fast but hold on the the A guy in their minds forever, more so than men because of hypergamy. THe ones of lesser value would be failures to hook up with anyway acording to her agenda but the A guy IS her agenda to a much larger degree. The A woman, although important for a man is not THAT important as long as he has access to sex and so is moving on his genes. Especially if that new woman is only a little bit less attractive than the ex it would be easier to get over. Considering that over the course of history only 40% of men on average passed on their genes while 80% of women did so passing on his genes in any way means success in and of itself. The 20% of women probably mostly died or were infertile rather than did not find anyone although some could not find any provider. So mainly success for women is a good catch. Not necessarily the top A guy in her life but any guy that satisfies her hypergamy. Of course the A woman is important to us and a huge threat to the B woman but the difference in degree can possibly be very large.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Thanks, Wudang. Good point about the drive of men to pass on their genes – it makes sense they would not wallow in sorrow for very long. Whereas we nurture our pain after a breakup…

  • VD

    I tend to think of Camille Paglia as a man in a lesbian’s body–and not a very nice man at that. She should just grow a penis and have done with it; I strongly suspect that she wishes she could–truly, no snark about that.

    No doubt. But that doesn’t make her any less brilliant. It’s bitterly disappointing that she turned out to be a one-trick pony, but what a trick it was. I would strongly recommend her Sexual Personae to anyone with an interest in Game. Harold Bloom himself said: “There is no book comparable in scope, stance, design or insight.” Now, I would argue that Rothbard’s Austrian Perspective on the History of Economic Analysis actually surpasses it, but still, it’s very well worth reading.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      I love CP. I agree with much of what she says about feminism, she tells it straight and she doesn’t take any BS.

  • Warm woman

    Ted d, a narcissist mom can influence a daughter to have casual sex indirectly. The n mom tries to sabotage the daughter’s ltrs. The daughter of an n thinks “what’s the point of having a bf if mom will just try to break it up and intrude?” casual sex seems like an easy way of intimacy that the girl can settle for. Sounds like her mom isn’t involved as much with u , which is good.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan – I’m OK with Badgers, but I really can’t stomach Rollo. Not because I think he is wrong, which for the most part I don’t. I really do not like his delivery. He is far too confrontational and aggressive. Probably very good for his followers, but I don’t like any extremists, even when I agree with them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted

      Badger has a great blog, I didn’t mean to equate the demeanor of the two bloggers. I’ve just seen some threads recently that resemble the kinds of threads that give me a migraine, so I’m just as happy to have those debates happening elsewhere.

  • http://deleted Jason

    @Mike C

    “I’m not going to prod you to do that, but it might be interested in just validating. Frankly, I love it when guys like you and formerplaya show up because it tends to validate things that I’ve said that often get a skeptical eye. I think if we got a bunch more attractive, higher count men commenting, you’d see a fairly common pattern of experiences that would be hard to dispute, especially in terms of who, why, what of women responding.”

    As I said, if Susan would like, I’d be completely willing to send a couple pics. As I’m sure you know, there are way too many keyboard jockeys when it comes to these topics and there is not enough backup evidence. And with my high count friends, experiences are very similar, so I know exactly where you are coming from.

    “FWIW, I’m 38 now. From say the age of 14 to 38 my looks have varied substantially from short geeky looking nerd with glasses and braces (freshman year of high school) to looking like I was sculpted from stone. My peak look was probably around 32-33 when I was 6’3″ at around 245 and 9-10% bodyfat, and tanning 2-3 times a week. I noticed the difference in female attention over the years depending on how I looked at that moment in time. Just another example. I started dating my GF in 2006. From 2006 through 2009, I pretty much stayed at 245-250 consistently wearing 36″ pants. Let’s just say I didn’t hurt for women checking me out in the gym. Since 2009, I’ve been working a brutal schedule that essentially is 2 full-time jobs with 4 hours of sleep. I’ve been pretty much gaining bodyfat at a rate of 1-1.5 pound per month so I’m 290ish right now. Thankfully I’m tall, and carry a lot of muscle so the fat can kind of distribute itself halfway decent. Still, I look like shit compared to what I looked like 3-4 years ago. The amount of attention and immediate IOIs I get have dropped off a cliff. If I were single again, my first priority would be geting back down to 245-250 before even trying to refine a single aspect of Game (relationship Game is different than pickup Game IMO).”

    I don’t want to get into a heated debate about how much looks matter (I’ve been there and done that), but I will say this…I think good looks help in the sense that it gives you more opportunity to fuck up with a woman and still be forgiven. In a scenario with two guys, say a 9 and a 6, if their game is equal the 9 wins out always. But if the 6 has superb game, he can and does win a lot.

    I was raised on southside of Chicago, and one of my buddies from the old neighborhood, a 5’6″, pale, slightly pudgy, curly haired irish ginger ALWAYS was pulling attractive women. Now, these wouln’t be considered high socioeconomic class women, as I didn’t grow up in a neighborhood like that, but they were no doubt physically attractive and he was winning out over much better looking guys from the neighborhood. He was and is just a natural alpha in his niche, with rock solid frame. Like NOTHING ever phased him and he had an irrational self confidence considering his station in life. If a guy like this can do it, I believe anyone has the capability deep down.

    And I also understand your own journey, so to speak. I was a FFB, up until around age 15 or 16, when I decided to get my shit together. Now at 24, I’m 6’0, 220, and around 14% or so. Looking good allows for inner confidence which shines through to women, but if that confidence can be derived from some other place, then things are even imo.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      Send ‘em along, Jason! You are one brave fellow. If you have any restrictions you want observed, just let me know.

      walsh.susan1@gmail.com

  • Iggles

    @ Hope:

    Traditional dating is not very romantic when applied to modern times. A date used to be something that took place between two people who already know each other, like students who know each other, friends of friends, or coworkers.

    My husband and I had our first dinner date over a month after we first started talking a lot to each other. It’s very difficult to go on a date with a total stranger, and generally the outcomes are not positive. Even online dating has this problem. People were not meant to get together this way.

    Interesting. As someone who tried online dating, I can attest meeting someone brand new can be awkward at first. I think meeting a possible romantic partner through your existing network is preferable for a number of reasons. It’s easier to vet and verify what kind of person they are and what they’re status is if you can mutual friends. Knowing people in common make it less likely he or she will disappear/flake on you — a terrible online phenomenon — or if they do you can find out why through asking your friend.

    However, to me online dating is no different then meeting a someone at a coffee shop. If you agree to go on a date, they’re still pretty much a stranger. It works best if you exchange messages and talk on the phone before going out, but most people you date won’t lead to a relationship. It’s better to be proactive and seek possible partners than to rely solely meeting someone through family/friends/work. In my opinion, there’s no reason to limit yourself to one avenue for meeting dates.

    In my case, I work at a small company (no possible date there) and after college my circle of friends has gotten smaller (we keep in touch, but don’t hang out as much as we used to. Life has gotten busy for us all *shrugs*). I’m glad I gave it a shot because that’s how I met my boyfriend.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m glad I gave it a shot because that’s how I met my boyfriend.

      I love the online dating success stories. It’s a ton of work, but if things are slow for whatever reason in your life, it’s a strategy worth pursuing.

  • Iggles

    Wow, blockquote fail! And after giving Jason advice, haha!

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Jason – I second Susan’s last post to you. I like having players/former players around, as long as they are reasonably intelligent and willing to have civil conversation. It always seems that the players are also the guys most likely to be constantly combative, or just so full of themselves that they can’t give a reasonable observation of anything, let alone themselves.

    I suppose it comes with the territory. But you do seem to be the exception to that stereotype. Welcome to HUS: home of the outliers.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    There are a few non-fiction authors I can stomach in large doses (Joseph Campbell, Marshal McLuhan, Nietzsche, Bertrand Russell being, I think, the most notable) , but non-fiction mostly bores me. I’m happy with Pynchon, Calvino, Gaddis, Borges, et al. back to Homer. I’ll leave the non-fiction to the more “serious”-minded folks here.

  • http://deleted Jason

    Susan,

    Pics sent.

  • Mike C

    Are you trying to piss me off by linking to Rollo twice in one thread? ;)

    Nope. I just thought it was germane in both instances to a subject being discussed. I don’t recall the former example, but in the latter example Jason made a point about looks which I wanted to respond to. FWIW, if I was posting a comment at Rational Male that I thought linking to you was germane to making a point, I’d do so without hesitation.

    Seriously, some of the convos here belong there. The threads there and at Badger’s recently are perfect for them, and not for HUS. We need to do a bit of dividing and conquering, I think.

    No prob. FWIW, 2 things.

    1. I am trying to abide by your stated desire to keep any negativity.harshness out of comments.

    2. Most if not all of the comment threads on just about every single post eventually devolve into a number of multiple conversations amongst a few different people, some of which don’t interest other people at all,but are of interest to those few participants. The “looks matter” is always a hot topic amongst guys. Jason showed up here, he made that point, I responded with the link and an invitation to carry it on there. Truthfully, anyone not interested in the conversation Jason and I are having can skip those comments. Tangential conversations occur all the time ranging from Catholic/Lutheran theology to Camille Paglia that have nothing to do with the original post. I really respect your intent about curbing the negativity…..I hope we aren’t taking that to what conversations are permissible amongst a few commenters?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      No worries, I really was kidding. I have no problem with anything you’ve said or done. And you’re right, I am very laid back about things wandering around off topic.

      I really appreciate your keeping things positive, and for my part, I will try to refrain from engaging in pointless debates that get everybody’s knickers in a twist.

      By the way, I noticed in the Rational Male thread about looks that dragnet said his comments on that subject are getting deleted at Heartiste. I find that very odd – what do you think that’s about? Just curious.

  • http://thegatewayboyfriend.blogspot.com Dan_Brodribb

    @Susan (617)

    “Do you think that a woman who gets involved with a guy still grieving in that way is entering a risky situation? I compared it to being the first woman a newly divorced man takes out to dinner…If you’re grieving, and enter a new relationship with a woman, can you fall hard for her, or hang in there until you’re truly emotionally available?”

    My take on it is it depends how far along in the process the guy is, how recent the break-up was, and how long they were together. My feeling is, I don’t have to be 100% over a woman to have a good relationship to another, but I tend to react to non-consensual break-ups with a period of self-doubt and shaky confidence and I’ve found from experience I need to get through that part before I can devote much relationship energy to someone else.

    I would say the most important thing for a woman looking to date a guy recovering from a previous relationship to examine is whether the guy is in a place where the previous relationship is 100% over for him. He can miss his ex- and regret the way things ended, but he can’t be willing or wanting to get back together with her.

    What’s your take on it?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dan Brodribb

      I would say the most important thing for a woman looking to date a guy recovering from a previous relationship to examine is whether the guy is in a place where the previous relationship is 100% over for him. He can miss his ex- and regret the way things ended, but he can’t be willing or wanting to get back together with her.

      I agree, that makes a lot of sense. Earlier in this thread Former Playa said that his wife originally gave him a lot of time to work his old gf out of his system, not pressuring him at all. If a woman can handle that, I think it’s a great strategy. He cites it as the key thing that made him commit to someone for real.

      Obviously, when either person has just come off a relationship, if there’s any lingering disappointment, an honest conversation needs to be had. Otherwise, there’s the risk of getting weeks or months in and hearing, “I’m not over my ex” or even worse, “I’m getting back with my ex.” That firm commitment not to get back together should be there from the start, I agree.

  • http://deleted Jason

    Thanks Ted. In the internet arena I tend to be civil, or else things devolve quickly, and intelligent, thought provoking conversation is always a plus.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Heh. Jason is gorgeous. If you decide to be a nice guy I’ve got a beauty with a low count for you, also a shiksa goddess.

      Bah, I’ve got to figure out how to upload these pics to the comments.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        Whoops, just realized Jason doesn’t want the pics up. So you’ll have to take my word for it. He is built. Fantastic chest and arms in a bathing suit shot. The other shot is him in a white T and jeans, hands in pockets, with about an inch of his J.Crew boxers showing in between. His face is chiseled, the guy could model. In fact, maybe he is a J.Crew model.

        I can tell you right now this kid was BMOC. He had women in rotation at all times. I’m sure most of them would have not very nice things to say about him. Lots of pumps and dumps. But if any guy could pull low number girls for a ONS, this guy could.

        Bottom line: If Jason wants a hot babe with a low count, he can get her, provided he goes out and finds her. My guess is there were plenty of women in college who would have avoided him with his douchey rep (I’m sure he didn’t care), but now he’s in a new city, he can probably get just about anyone he wants. (Do I recognize him from Karen Owen’s Powerpoint presentation?)

        That’s my honest opinion. No compromise.

        FYI: A shiksa is a Gentile girl. A shiksa goddess is a beautiful Gentile girl.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan

    “Though as I said, I know a very nice group of beta guys who are at 10 as they approach their mid-20s. Getting drunk at a party or bar can do wonders for your sex life.”

    Yeah, but as OTC mentioned, those numbers are above the median. Most guys, especially beta guys, aren’t in that boat. We hired a bunch of millenial STEM guys in the last couple of years, and hanging with them, it was clear they weren’t too different than us late Gen-Xers were a decade ago (though they are more aware of the SMP than we were).

    “You might want to take a red pill booster with your next glass of wine.”

    :-) Good one. I did have another couple of drinks.

    I have two younger siblings who are out there in the SMP, so I hear from them all the time. What I hear from them is plenty enough to serve as a red-pill booster shot…

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Ted and Susan

    Yeah, I loved the rare people in Boston that would actually talk to strangers (me) and not think I’m crazy. That, and not being impressed with the availability of theatre for me to be able to work in, were the two huge factors that made me change locale. I love Boston, but as a place to visit, not one to live. Maybe I simply spent too much time on Mass Ave around the Huntington Theatre and Commonwealth Ave, but I simply couldn’t find people I could form any sort of connection with. Too many frat boys, sorority girls, or people just closed off to the world around them.

    Growing up in Denver and theatre, I think I’ve found I’m a mid-west man at heart. Love it here and the work is incredibly rewarding.

  • Wudang

    “Not quite correct. ALL women ARE PERFECTLY CAPABLE of cheating on their husband/BF given the right set of circumstances. And even so, the statistics show that most women don’t cheat on their husbands and most men don’t cheat on their wives. There are no certainties in human action, there are only statistical probabilities.”

    Not quite correct. ALL women ARE PERFECTLY CAPABLE of cheating on their husband/BF given the right set of circumstances. And even so, the statistics show that most women don’t cheat on their husbands and most men don’t cheat on their wives. There are no certainties in human action, there are only statistical probabilities”

    Vox, what are the numbers on cheating? And speaking of numbers I think because of your background in economics a great couple of posts on your blog could be to look closer at all sorts of statistics on marriage and the SMP. We need more precision and I think you could suply that precision.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    In regards to the discussion of men getting over women, I think it depends on two key factors.

    1. How much he put into the relationship that was completely disregarded/unappreciated.

    Classic Athol stuff. If you are Super Beta Man, subscribe to making her your world, then it’ll take awhile to be ready for a relationship. I’d say men can compartmentalize a lot, and move on with dating women and enjoying life, but probably will have a hard time jumping right back into a relationship unless:

    2. The next relationship is everything the ex wasn’t.

    She appreciates, supports, and comforts you on every level. You won’t care about the first if the second is so far above her.

    3. If a guy goes, dates a few people, maybe has some ONS, FWB, or a non-serious short term relationship.

    Subscribe to the same thing JM did after his issues with the woman he was engaged to. Simply enjoy life and remember there’s a world outside of that woman.

    I know all three have worked wonders for me at various points.

  • ExNewYorker

    I think Wudang’s comment #641 is an interesting one:

    “I was under the impression that for men it took longer to get over a LTR than it did for a woman. But maybe that is only the case when he does not find someone new. ”

    That’s a good point. It took me two years to get the first woman I was serious with. But a lot of the reason for that was that I was still an unrepentant beta, and thus, involuntarily celibate. I’m sure it would have much quicker recovery in some other pretty woman’s arms… :-)

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    “Not quite correct. ALL women ARE PERFECTLY CAPABLE of cheating on their husband/BF given the right set of circumstances.”

    Isn’t the point of relationship game* to make sure that those circumstances never occur? Of realizing those chances are a reality and making sure they don’t happen?

    **Warning! May contain the Side Effect of producing a happy relationship that you both enjoy and don’t want to leave! USE WITH CAUTION!**

  • Ramble

    Or the girls divided their number by 3, as the guys always claim here?

    Susan,
    You were the one that listed the various ways that girls (in your group?) discount certain sexual encounters.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Susan,
      You were the one that listed the various ways that girls (in your group?) discount certain sexual encounters.

      It was just one girl, whittling away at her number to get it from 36 to 6. The women in my groups are very open about their numbers – they happily shared the truth with Kate Bolick, for example. I’m not saying they wouldn’t fudge the number if asked by a guy. A few have numbers so low they’re a bit sheepish about it.

      The rule of thumb in the manosphere seems to be multiply whatever a woman tells you by three. Personally, I think that is pithy but inaccurate. There are no rules of thumb on this question.

  • ExNewYorker

    This should have read:

    ” It took me two years to get OVER the first woman I was serious with.”

    Though, the original statement was technically true (sometimes beta orbiting does result in a landing).

  • Mike C

    I really appreciate your keeping things positive, and for my part, I will try to refrain from engaging in pointless debates that get everybody’s knickers in a twist.

    By the way, I noticed in the Rational Male thread about looks that dragnet said his comments on that subject are getting deleted at Heartiste. I find that very odd – what do you think that’s about? Just curious.

    Cool.

    Hmmmm…I don’t know…was it on the subject of Looks versus Game?

    This is one of those subjects guys will get really crazy debating with religious zeal on both sides. I’m reminded of the quip about academia that the more trivial the issue the louder the debate.

    I think certain guys have a stake in believing one thing or another, particularly as it relates to Game being some magic elixir. They may even want to control/stifle the debate. Some guys may have some vested interest for either themselves or telling some other guy that the 5’4″ guy with super tight Game can compete with the 6’4″ guy built like Adonis Magic Game will trump everything else and get you the 9 hottie. Some guys might want to believe that, and other guys might want to sell that, and they can’t allow discussion that contradicts that. As you well know, and I agree with female attraction is quite variable so saying thing X trumps everything else for all women is nonsense.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “AKA the Silvio Berlusconi Strategy.”

    Power must be the ultimate ,aphrodisiac because it clearly isn’t his looks that did it. What a national embarrassment (speaking as a part Italian American). He makes Bill Clinton look like a choir boy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      What a national embarrassment (speaking as a part Italian American).

      My brother is an Italian citizen, and he suffers from Berlusconi Derangement Syndrome.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “Though as I said, I know a very nice group of beta guys who are at 10 as they approach their mid-20s.”

    As XNY noted, those guys are the alphas – they’re the ones in the top 15 or 20%. You keep trying to paint the picture that they are typical guys, and it just doesn’t match the data.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As XNY noted, those guys are the alphas – they’re the ones in the top 15 or 20%. You keep trying to paint the picture that they are typical guys, and it just doesn’t match the data.

      I hear that. I don’t know, they’re sweet, and boyish, and cute, and they’ve been orbiting Little Miss HUS for at least five years. They don’t pull girls easily, it’s more like they get lucky sometimes. And also, this is a big factor – they sometimes hook up with girls in the friend group (not LMHUS). Most have had an LTR or two, but mostly they prefer to stay single. I don’t know what to tell the CDC – I’ve known these boys for many years, and I hear the stories.

  • Mike C

    Heh. Jason is gorgeous.

    I hope Jason will sort of chime in and describe the difference between pre-Game gorgeous and post-Game gorgeous. I’d be curious if he always was a really good looking guy or if it is was something he developed into.

    Jason, I think you said you were an engineer. Are you a natural introvert or extrovert (Myers-Brigg)?

    Sorry, if I am being overly nosy, but your overall history/progression has a high level of curiousity for me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Jason said he’s an 8, but I would assume he was one of the best looking guys on campus. All he needs to do is not be supplicating. The notion that he couldn’t get traditional dates with girls is very difficult for me to understand. I would think that would be every girl’s dream.

      IDK, maybe he was a late bloomer – it’s hard for me to imagine there was a time when he didn’t feel secure about his looks.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    If you decide to be a nice guy I’ve got a beauty with a low count for you, also a shiksa goddess.

    OMG. Sue’s selling ‘em to the wolves. So much for wanting to pair up the low number people with other low number people….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      OMG. Sue’s selling ‘em to the wolves. So much for wanting to pair up the low number people with other low number people….

      No, I was kidding around to convey how good looking he is. I would chase the wolf from the door. Although he does genuinely sound as if he is considering abandoning his player ways. Kinda like you, JM.

  • Wudang

    “Thanks, Wudang. Good point about the drive of men to pass on their genes – it makes sense they would not wallow in sorrow for very long. Whereas we nurture our pain after a breakup…”

    But only if we get a new girl. If we don`t, my theory goes at least, we will wallow more than you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang

      If we don`t, my theory goes at least, we will wallow more than you.

      Ah, this reminds me of a scene from Jane Austen’s Persuasion.

      Captain Harville: No, no, it is not man’s nature. I will not allow it to be more man’s nature than woman’s to be inconstant and forget those they do love, or have loved. I believe the reverse. I believe in a true analogy between our bodily frames and our mental; and that as our bodies are the strongest, so are our feelings; capable of bearing most rough usage, and riding out the heaviest weather.’

      Anne: ‘Your feelings may be the strongest,but the same spirit of analogy will authorise me to assert that ours are the most tender. Man is more robust than woman, but he is not longer lived; which exactly explains my view of the nature of their attachments. Nay, it would be too hard upon you, if it were otherwise. You have difficulties, and privations, and dangers enough to struggle with. You are always labouring and toiling, exposed to every risk and hardship. Your home, country, friends, all quitted. Neither time, nor health, nor life, to be called your own. It would be hard, indeed’ (with a faltering voice), ‘if woman’s feelings were to be added to all this.’

      Captain Wentworth, the man Anne has never stopped loving, overhears and writes her this:

      “Tell me not that I am too late, that such precious feelings are gone for ever. I offer myself to you again with a heart even more your own than when you almost broke it, eight years and a half ago. Dare not say that man forgets sooner than woman, that his love has an earlier death. I have loved none but you. Unjust I may have been, weak and resentful I have been, but never inconstant.”

      Jane Austen knew everything, everything, about human nature.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    OffTheCuff

    “As XNY noted, those guys are the alphas – they’re the ones in the top 15 or 20%. You keep trying to paint the picture that they are typical guys, and it just doesn’t match the data.”

    Wouldn’t it depend on the circumstances? If it was all within relationships that either they or the woman hit NEXT. If they’re good looking that would make sense – able to pull women and either not able to keep them or making judgement calls to get rid of them.

    I would say that the number is an indicator you should look at circumstances. An alpha WILL have numbers – A beta may or may not. But while a beta may have above average numbers, they won’t be skyrocketed unless they’re slumming. At 10 they’re just above average.

  • Iggles

    @ Charm:

    @Iggles

    Is it odd that I have a rough draft of how I’d like my life to go? Lol, I have a tendency to always make sure I have a least the next few years figured out. I’ve found that observing other people and learning about their experiences helps me to avoid making the same decisions. Still can’t believe how people fall into the same traps that their parents, siblings, friends etc fall into when it comes to people.

    No, I think that’s great. I’m the same way, in the sense that I’ve always had a list of mid-range and long term goals. It amazes me that so many people live in the “now” without any cognizance of where they’re going in life vs where they’d like to end up.

    However, I realize I do need to add new plans to that list. Right now I’m a bit stagnant. At the ripe old age of 27 (haha!) I’ve crossed off quite few big items off my list and it’s time to dream bigger.

    Anyway, kudos for learning from other peoples’ mistakes! I’d rather not follow others down a path if there’s negative outcomes in doing so either. It reminds of, how when people go, “Man, this taste awful.. Here, try it!” I always say no! Why would I want to try it after knowing it tastes bad?

  • Ted D

    LoB – “Isn’t the point of relationship game* to make sure that those circumstances never occur? Of realizing those chances are a reality and making sure they don’t happen?”

    Absolutely. But as a man that knows his game will never be top tier, I would like to think that it will take far more to “turn” my SO than a guy with better game. Otherwise it isn’t an IF situation, but a WHEN situation, as in: shemwillmchear when she encounters a man with better game. I don’t know about you, but if that is indeed the reality then we should all give up on marriage.

  • Wudang

    “shiksa goddess.”

    Whats that?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    A shiksa’s a non Jewish girl into Jewish guys.

  • Ted D

    Linksys – “Ted, are you saying that whether or not your attached, if you want to go out on a date with someone else, you will?

    Of course people have 2 set of rules when they are single or attached. When you are not in a monogamous relationship you are not required to be faithful to someone.”

    No, I’m saying whether I am with someone or not, I don’t have sex outside of a relationship. When I am not in a relationship, I remain faithful to my ideals and the next woman I partner with. Yes, I remain faithful to a woman I may not have met yet. I call it a moral code. I have always lived my life being faithful to my SO, even when I didn’t have one at the time.

  • http://rationalmale.wordpress.com Rollo Tomassi

    Be less concerned with a woman’s lay-count and more concerned with the emotional associative impact the last Alpha had on her.

    Which do you believe is the more common scenario:

    A woman leaving her her stable, loving, dependable, but uninspiring and predictable beta nice-guy boyfriend/husband for an exciting, but erratic Alpha bad boy she hopes will change for her,

    or

    A woman leaving her erratic, but exciting self-concerned, a-hole Alpha lover for a stable, supportive, loving and considerate beta whom she hopes will eventually become more exciting and Alpha?

    You see, women don’t leave Alpha jerks for nice betas. Even when they’ve moved on the never really leave them. Circumstances in her relationship with an Alpha may exceed her tolerance (or his) to remain in that relationship, but she never sees the beta as the option worth leaving an Alpha for. Women never willingly trade down. Enduring a jerk’s behavior is still preferable to enduring a beta’s dutiful adorations.

    That’s not to say women don’t find themselves with betas after an LTR with an Alpha, they just didn’t opt for it.

    Bonus questions:
    After having been involved in an LTR with both a beta nice guy and an Alpha jerk, which one is a woman more likely to fantasize about later?

    How many men actively seek out sexual relationships and correspond, unsolicited, with incarcerated female criminals notorious for violent murders?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rollo

      Jason is an alpha, as was her last BF. So it’s an alpha on alpha competition. What are the rules for that?

      Also, women with a high proclivity for chasing dopamine will take “exciting/dangerous” every time. The women who propose to men on Death Row are the extreme exmaple. More emotionally stable women are more likely to choose “enjoyable to be with/good with children and dogs.” In my view, the former is not attractive, the latter is very attractive.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Iggles, I’m glad dating worked out well for you. I guess I never did give it much of a chance. But hey, your mileage may vary. :P

  • Iggles

    @ Susan

    I love the online dating success stories. It’s a ton of work, but if things are slow for whatever reason in your life, it’s a strategy worth pursuing.

    Yeah, it is work! A lot of it comes down to luck too. You meet quite a few duds and some flakes here and there. But I honestly don’t see how the two of us would have met! We don’t run in the same circles. Nor work in the same industry. Or frequented the same places, haha! I live in NYC where I see hundreds of strangers every day. We might have been like two ships passing in the night, who knows. I don’t even remember how I came across his profile, but I messaged him first. It all worked itself out from there.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue’s smitten. Maybe there’s something to what the manosphere guys say. lol

  • Jesus Mahoney

    No, I was kidding around to convey how good looking he is. I would chase the wolf from the door.

    Mmhm. Chase being the operative word. lol

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    Studies have been done showing people have an automatic bias to goodlooking faces and assume the owners of such faces are nice people.

    When they’re more likely to be narcissists. Which brings us back to the chicken and egg question re female attraction to narcissists.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    I don’t have a problem with Jason. He sounds like a decent guy. I was just teasing.

  • Ted D

    Linksys -”Wow. You are pretty lofty. Got a brother?”

    Sorry, I am an only child. Probably why I never learned to share. :-p

  • J

    VD–
    Sure, she’s brilliant. My problem is that she is often quoted in the ‘sphere as the female whose perspective validates Game, when she is really more representative of androgynes (a subject she embraces) or men, than she is of women. I can find nothing in her that I feel represents women–and I’m a fairly masculine-minded woman.

    On a more humorous note, I once shared with my DH a piece written by Paglia in which she describes a fantasy game where a woman suggested to her male partner that they pretend she has a penis and he has a vagina. My DH paused, looked puzzled and asked, “Where do you go from there?” Where, indeed? That’s the sort of thing I think you can depend of Paglia for. Yeah, it’s edgy, but where do you go from there? I guess, if you ae awoman, you have to grow a penis.

  • Wudang

    Thanks for the shiksa godess clarification, now what does BMOC mean?

  • Jonny

    @Susan “The rule of thumb in the manosphere seems to be multiply whatever a woman tells you by three. Personally, I think that is pithy but inaccurate. There are no rules of thumb on this question.”

    This question was answered. The woman should have much less than the man. That’s why some suggest women’s numbers are underreported.

    @Jason “If traditional dating is that hard for a guy like me, who claims to be able to get women, I can only imagine how difficult it is for the nice guys out there.”

    You’re talking about two different things here. I’m a nice guy. I don’t get ONS and I don’t try. It wasn’t for me before and it will never be for me in the future. That’s why the only thing available for me is traditional dating and LTRs.

    To change your strategy means you have to change yourself. You can’t suddenly leave the player life and go LTR in one step. You can’t have one foot in the door ready to jump into the bar scene when you fail to find a nice girl. It doesn’t work that way.

    I said the same things before for women who seek LTRs. Women need to have the potential of being great wives. They need to have some domestic interests and skills like cooking and cleaning. They need to be selfless.

    If you want to be married in the future, you need to change your head, your behavior, and your long-term interests. Find a different crowd. Get different friends. Demonstrate you want something different.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The problem with Rollo’s comparison is that he’s pitting EXCITING “alphas” (whatever the fuck they are) with UNINSPIRING “betas” (again, whatever…). Of course the exciting guy is more likely to win over the uninspiring one.

    Rollo has apparently married a woman that finds 2-dimensional “bad boys” inspiring and real 3-dimensional men with productive and enriching lives uninspiring. He’s got a rotten egg and rather than admit it, he’s going to set out to prove that all women are shallow leeches who feed off of bad boy excitement.

    And I mean that in the least confrontational way possible.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Jason, on the last page you said you didn’t go with blackout drunk girls, and I believe that. My point to Mike C is that “good girls” who do same night lays with a stranger they just met probably have had their inhibitions lowered by having a few drinks — tipsy but not drunk.

    Personally I always refused to have even a single sip of alcohol, and drink nothing but water (I turn down caffeine and soda, too). It’s just a totally different world that I have no experience with at all.

    I also lived in the Chicago area for almost a decade, from 17 until 25 (met my husband at 25). So it’s not like I lacked access to bars and clubs. I heard they were fun, and lots of other girls I knew were going, but I just didn’t ever go to any.

    And yeah, I’m very risk-averse and an outlier for sure. I never went on an upside down roller coaster until last year, at a company picnic in an amusement park, and the only reason I went is because my husband made me feel safe. He’s also the one who taught me how to ride a bike, swim without flotation aid and handle firearms.

  • Mike C

    @Mike C

    The notion that he couldn’t get traditional dates with girls is very difficult for me to understand. I would think that would be every girl’s dream.

    Yeah, strange isn’t it? :) I have a theory why a guy who looks like Jason is much more successful going the hook-up route versus any sort of proper traditional courting/dating, but I don’t think you would like it. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      I have a theory why a guy who looks like Jason is much more successful going the hook-up route versus any sort of proper traditional courting/dating, but I don’t think you would like it

      Probably not, but I’m all about the free expression of ideas.

  • Warm woman

    @leapofabeta, I’m in mass.but am originally from the Midwest. I usually smile at everyone, and am no longer perturbed at the mannerisms here…….such as having nasty notes on my car.

  • Wudang

    The women who propose to men on Death Row are the extreme exmaple.

    I think the women who get together with inmates have som esort of bizare combination of extreme dopamine needs and are emotionally totally fucked up both of which is quite evident. An overlooked third factor I think is that they desire control. They get to get with the most dangerous taboo man imagineable and they get to do that under the most controled conditions imagineable. He is in jail after all. The women that do not desire the control but are otehrwise equal would rather find a thug outisde of prision and be his “girlfriend” with the risks involved with that.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jason

    I just read what you said here from Jonny’s comment.

    “If traditional dating is that hard for a guy like me, who claims to be able to get women, I can only imagine how difficult it is for the nice guys out there.”

    I think you need to find social situations where you can get to know girls w/o dating first. My girlfriend is actually the sister of a friend I went to high school with. I reconnected with him when I became single and ended up hanging out with him a few times. Met the sister (who I hadn’t seen since I was 18 and she was 15), we hung out together a bit, flirted, and took it from there.

    That said, I’d met a few girls over the summer using day game while I was still trying on the whole player thing, and went from # close to a couple of low key, casual dates. I wasn’t looking to have relationships with them, but I can see things happening that way if you wanted it. If you’re as good looking as Sue says, then I don’t see why that wouldn’t work. I had a pretty good “close” rate (I hate talking in terms like that), and of the girls I got numbers from and pursued, I never had a girl think it strange when I asked her to hang out afterward. Anyway, something to think about.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I don’t have time to get involved in this conversation, but upon skimming, this made me laugh:

    Since PA seems to be the buffer between NE and the south, I always assumed we were snobby. But I swear a few of her friends looked at me like I might sprout a second head when she told them I was born and raised in Pittsburgh.

    LOL! You know what they say about PA… It’s Philly and Pittsburgh on either end, with Alabama in between. And I’m from the Alabama part. :-P

  • J

    Wudang, a BMOC is a Big Man on Campus.

    I was under the impression that for men it took longer to get over a LTR than it did for a woman. But maybe that is only the case when he does not find someone new. Maybe when he finds someone new having renewed access to spread his seed makes him get over it very fast.

    I honestly think it varies by individual. Sometimes it appears that women get over things faster, but I think that is because women have often left the relationship emotionally long before they leave it physically. However, I’ve seen dumped women become quite hysterical or depressed.

    Men OTOH can take being dumped very hard but still run out and use the next woman as an emotional band-aid. I said upthread that I prefer men capable of LTRs to players. The one caveat is that I prefer them after they’ve healed and moved on. A man, fresh from a breakup may well use and hurt the next woman.

  • Wudang

    Thanks J

  • Jesus Mahoney

    It occurs to me that socio-economic status plays a role in people’s sexual histories and their attitudes towards sex. My girlfriend lived at home with her folks, worked days teaching yoga to help pay for evening classes. She avoided the campus hook up scene and went to school with an older crowd (evening classes were filled with people returning to school for 2nd careers, etc…).

    She had less time for “play” and, having to pay her own way through school (her family couldn’t afford to send her), she took her studies more seriously.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      Re SES, more findings from Vox’s data:

      Monetary success does tend to correlate with sexual success for men. The average income of the 28 ALPHAs, who had an average age of 38, was 50% higher than the average at $112k. The average income of the male virgins, whose average age was 31, was 16% lower than the norm at $63k.

      There is a correlation between female income and greater partner count. Women with 8+ partners averaged $70k income. Women with 0-4 partners averaged $34k income.

  • J

    “How many men actively seek out sexual relationships and correspond, unsolicited, with incarcerated female criminals notorious for violent murders?”

    Susan Atkins got married twice in jail. There are others.

    Let’s not forget Bambi (Lawrencia Bembenek). She had one private detective who adored her trying to prove her innocence, but became engaged to a guy who busted her out of jail. After her release from jail, she married a forest ranger. In terms of male attention, she did a lot better than many free women. Then there’s Patty Hearst and Amanda Knox….

  • J

    She had less time for “play” and, having to pay her own way through school (her family couldn’t afford to send her), she took her studies more seriously.

    This and a strong set of goals keep women off the carousel. As I’ve said before, the nice are more often found in the library than in the club.

  • Mike C


    I have a theory why a guy who looks like Jason is much more successful going the hook-up route versus any sort of proper traditional courting/dating, but I don’t think you would like it

    Probably not, but I’m all about the free expression of ideas.

    Instead of me saying what I think….I’m genuinely curious what you think. You’ve seen the pictures, you’ve got the resume…

    Assuming he is being truthful, and I can’t see any motive to lie about this particular item, why do you think he has been more successful carrying on with the “hookiup” culture of college instead of a more old school, tradtional dating approach?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      My guess was that you were going to say that women see him and their bodies tell them to get pregnant by him immediately.

      Other reasons might be:

      1. They see Jason and know he’s got to be a player in this SMP. As such, he has no need to ask women out on dates. If he does so, they wonder, “What’s wrong with this guy? Is he lame and supplicating even though he’s good looking?”

      2. They figure their odds of locking Jason down are slim, so why go there. A quick bang gets you access to those pecs, and you can pretend you didn’t want to date him anyway. This would hold for girls less attractive than he is, but he’s said clearly he doesn’t compromise on looks – he can pull hot girls even for casual.

      That’s all I got. In summary, asking for dates = beta and pump & dump = alpha. Am I right?

  • Warm woman

    Jesus, I also lived with mom and dad until I was 25. Glad to know I’m not the only one that didnt leave at 18. :) but I still managed to do some regrettable things sexually despite being under mommys control. I’m grateful that I was able to focus on my education and save money to get a job opportunity to help me escape home. Being independent was when I decided to endorse healthier views on sex.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    WarmWoman,

    In your case, with your unhealthy family, it wasn’t “despite” but “because of” being under your mom’s control.

    I left at 18, but if things were different at home, I would’ve stayed through college. I didn’t end up living on campus anyway, and I was only a subway ride from school at my parents.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yea, Linksys is FemEx. I was going to call it before, but I let it go.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike C,

    Do you really think that bars and clubs are the best places to meet women with values who want a relationship?

  • J

    If you are correct, then the female orgasm machinery varies dramatically in individuals. According to women who ejaculate, the orgasm is many times better than a clitoral orgasm. Has anyone come up with an explanation for this as an intermittent feature in the population?

    I have heard of Skene’s glands before and can verify reading about Lindsay is talking about.

    The basic “floor plan” for fetuses is female. At some point the Y chromosone kicks in and testosterone causes the “female” fetus to become male. Most of the male structure is homologous with corresponding female structures. Perhaps in women who receive more maternal testosterone, the tissue that would become the prostate in the male becomes well developed Skene’s glands. In women who receive less testerone, the Skene’s gland either don’t develop well or wither. On a similar note, did you know that men have tiny uteri in their urethas? They don’t develop in the absence of estrogen.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Perhaps in women who receive more maternal testosterone, the tissue that would become the prostate in the male becomes well developed Skene’s glands. In women who receive less testerone, the Skene’s gland either don’t develop well or wither

      That sounds a lot like hermaphroditism. What percentage of the female population do you think has the Skene’s gland? And again, has anyone ever seen it? Has it been dissected, viewed, studied? Is there any science to be found here?

  • Jason

    Heh. Jason is gorgeous. If you decide to be a nice guy I’ve got a beauty with a low count for you, also a shiksa goddess.

    Bah, I’ve got to figure out how to upload these pics to the comments.

    Thanks Susan. I might take you up on that offer some day as I only go for shiksas anyways haha. I just say NO to Jewish girls.

  • J

    WW–I stuck around after 18, left, came back, left again. You are not alone.

  • Warm woman

    Lindsay. That’s true . I think some women are naturally weary of men that give them that crazy I want to rip your clothes off feeling. It’s because they might feel the guy isn’t ltr material. I’ve heard women stereotype handsome hunks as jerks and players. Not that it’s always true. So a hookup is their way of getting a taste of the hot man and not getting hurt through investing in a ltr

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “Most have had an LTR or two, but mostly they prefer to stay single.”

    Preferring variety over monogamy, when one has option of either, is an alpha abundance mindset. They are probably lesser alphas.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I actually had more friends that stayed home than left at 18. I didn’t move on to bigger and better things. I ended up crashing with friends or falling asleep between Ditmars Blvd and Coney Island on the N train until I had money for an apartment.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I ended up crashing with friends or falling asleep between Ditmars Blvd and Coney Island on the N train until I had money for an apartment.

      That’s great fodder for a novelist.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Jesus
    I’ve always been outspoken against the idea of “bar girls.” That cute girl you see at the library reading? She was probably out at a bar over the weekend.

    Maybe it’s different in some parts of the country, but everywhere I’ve ever lived I’d venture to guess 90%+ of people in the 21-25 age range are going to bars fairly regularly. Even those who don’t drink alcohol. It’s just a social function.

    Now I also don’t think going out to bars means having to get sloppy drunk and hooking up with strangers, either.

    FWIW, I definitely agree with you that friends of friends etc. is a much better method to meeting someone for a relationship. But I don’t blame any guy for not wanting to go that route, though. These days it’s usually a one way ticket to getting friendzoned.

  • Mike C

    Mike C,

    Do you really think that bars and clubs are the best places to meet women with values who want a relationship?

    No, there are probably many places with a higher percentage of women who value long-term relationships. That said, “good girls” go to bars as well. When I was bouncing, to me there was a big difference between the girls you would only see on Friday or Saturday night versus the ones you would see in there 3-4 times a week often on weekdays closing the place down.

    The point is well taken that the typical girl hanging out in a bookstore is different from the girl clubbing 4 times a week. But sometimes the story is different from the outside cover as well.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ WW

    Haha. Interesting. I was able to ‘handle’ that type of behavior as it were, I just didn’t enjoy it at all. I wanted to live in a place that added to my happiness and life. Not one where I was happy ‘in spite of’ the location. I have enough other things to deal with that that didn’t need to be one of them.

    Plus theatre out here pays better and comes with a cheaper cost of living. Win/win!

  • Jason

    @Mike C

    I hope Jason will sort of chime in and describe the difference between pre-Game gorgeous and post-Game gorgeous. I’d be curious if he always was a really good looking guy or if it is was something he developed into.

    Jason, I think you said you were an engineer. Are you a natural introvert or extrovert (Myers-Brigg)?

    Sorry, if I am being overly nosy, but your overall history/progression has a high level of curiousity for me.

    I would first refer you to my post where I came out as a FFB (Former Fat Boy) until I hit about 16, where I dropped around 35 or 40 lbs in 8 months. While I was always athletic, I wasn’t always good looking, and I went into hs being fat, so I already had an established social presence even after I dropped the weight. It was never negative, but it’s not like I went into hs as some heartthrob that all the girls wanted. Far from it.

    Probably by the time I was a senior in hs I came into my own a lot more, but while I was popular and good looking at this point, I still didn’t do very well with girls. I talked about this a few hundred posts back as well. Game helped me tremendously in this aspect, as I’m naturally inquisitive and I don’t want things to just work, I want to know why they work as well.

    Yes, I’m an engineer, and I would lean more towards extrovert, but it really depends on my mood. I’m not just one of those bubbly people who always seems to want to talk to someone, and I hate hate hate ‘water cooler’ small talk. That doesn’t mean I don’t like shooting the shit with people, but it has to have some substance behind it for me. I also haven’t taken that personality test, but in the chemistry.com personality test, my primary type was director, and secondary was explorer, which didn’t really surprise me.

  • Wudang

    Jason, you expressed some doubt earlier about making the relationship work and about keeping your alpha frame long term. I think your odds can be good, especially since you have access to the tools of the manosphere. The problem for most alphas is that although they have their instincts and experience and some theories they have come up with based on their experience, they don`t have the type of “complete overview and detailed understanding that is available here. It helps to have access to discussions of every type of shit test there is etc.

    I would read everything at Athol Kays site. His take on relationship game is extremely good and effective. I think his advice is what a lot of naturals are missing. They often either gets betaized or they provide too little comfort and beta traits or despite being alphas they are still not good at actually managing and leading the relationship.

    I would also read David Deidas books, especialy the way of the superior man. He is great for deep inner game and for a deep understanding of game and relationship game.

    I would also recomend meditation and qigong. The reason is because it makes you outcome independent at a much deeper level than it is possible to become by any other means. You mentioned your physically unattractive friend that still got laid by hot women because he had such an incredible frame and nothing ever could really get to him. Long term meditation develops that. You get a deep sense of equanimity that alows you to handle extremely harsh outside conditions without it really affecting you that much. If you go to Shinzen Youngs website and look in his article section you will find one article about equanimity and one called the pain processing algorythm or something like that. They explain very well how meditation helps you develop that outcome independence. It really is the ultimate inner game tool and will help with your worry about loosing your frame. If you do get into it be sure to also try standing meditation (Zhan Zhuang). It has extra benefits when it comes to developing alpha traits.

    I would also take note of the fact that you are likely higher in sex rank than her as you have bedded better looking women, you are very good looking, you have a very good education and prospects (in a crappy economy which makes this more important), AND you have game. Over time your rank will likely increase somewhat while hers will go down some.

    (The ladies should take note of the fact that although he said she was very good looking she was not the best looking one but had various personal qualitites that made her win out over the others)

    Couples were both have a higher education have about half the divorce risk of those without. High income also has an independent protective effect on divorce.

    One of the most usuefull relationship tools IMO is to gradually introduce your girl to the matrix and make her conciously aware of the gender dynamic in relationships and manosphere advice on how to work with this. This is helpfull because as you can see arround the manopshere the women are able to use this insight to improve upon the areas that actually do matter instead of putting effort into following dumb advice from Oprah, they aslo reduce bad behavior and learn to limit harsh and needles shit testing (but leave a more healthy amount and healthy types of shit tests as they are natural and unavoidable). Red Pill insights also help them take responsibility for bad dynamics in various ways and help to work things back to where they actualy work as evidenced by women at Athols blog who have helped do just that. My meditation teacher, who also teaches workshops on relationships and basically discovered the red pill by himself (for example what a shit test is and how to pass it) before the manopshere excisted, has taught lots of couples to successfully communicate about the matrix and use it to get their relationship back on track and the sexual tension back whenever it goes astray.

    I am actually more concerned about you leaving or somewhere long down the road cheating than the other way arround. I think if the relationship lasts 15-20 years the risk will eventually be higher on your side. I think cheating can be reduced a lot by looking into the thought process that typically ocurs and work with it as one does in cogntive behavioral therapy preemtively. When people deceide to cheat they make all sorts of rationalizations and asumptions. By learning to look specifically at those and criticising them it is easier to resist them rather than just having a strong attitude that cheating is wrong. It is much the same as using cognititive therapy tools on resisting drugs, overeating etc.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Good girls definitely go to bars now and then. I didn’t mean to imply that they never do. My guess though would be that the highest quality girls try to avoid the “meat markets.” Also, that the highest quality girls don’t drink to the point that fucking a stranger would be acceptable. And usually hang around a group of friends who wouldn’t allow that to happen even if they had gotten that drunk.

    But I do know women that have never been into the bar scene because 1. drinking costs too much, and 2. they don’t want to drink on someone else’s tab. Not surprisingly, these girls aren’t promiscuous by anyone’s standards (except maybe Dalrock’s…?).

  • Jesus Mahoney

    +1 on meditation.

  • Jason

    Susan

    Jason said he’s an 8, but I would assume he was one of the best looking guys on campus. All he needs to do is not be supplicating. The notion that he couldn’t get traditional dates with girls is very difficult for me to understand. I would think that would be every girl’s dream.

    IDK, maybe he was a late bloomer – it’s hard for me to imagine there was a time when he didn’t feel secure about his looks.

    Keep in mind I sent you some of the more flattering pictures of myself. I really do think I’m an 8 in everyday life, as most of the time my hair won’t be done, I’m not tan, etc. I’m also only 6’0″, which isn’t short by any means, but ideally I would like to be a bit taller (funny thing is I have six uncles over 6’2″, so I kind of got the short gene).

    And I never said I couldn’t get traditional dates, but it seemed like I had to pull teeth to get them (idk why, probably because of social norms now) and when I did girls always seemed to think it weird. And yes, I was a late bloomer, as explained above.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jason,

    Maybe the way you approach first dates is off… too formal in the asking, or too elaborate in the planning…. idk

  • Jason

    Mike C

    Yeah, strange isn’t it? :) I have a theory why a guy who looks like Jason is much more successful going the hook-up route versus any sort of proper traditional courting/dating, but I don’t think you would like it. :)

    I’d like to hear it. I’ve never really heard this discussed before.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jason,

    If I had to guess, I’d say Mike is thinking that you trigger short term mating cues in women. They peg you as “fling” from the start, so trying to transition to relationship is hard. In their minds, they’re thinking, but no, you’re just the candy to tide myself over till something more serious.

    I don’t agree with that, but that’s my guess about what Mike was going to say.

  • Jason

    JM,

    I think you need to find social situations where you can get to know girls w/o dating first. My girlfriend is actually the sister of a friend I went to high school with. I reconnected with him when I became single and ended up hanging out with him a few times. Met the sister (who I hadn’t seen since I was 18 and she was 15), we hung out together a bit, flirted, and took it from there.

    That said, I’d met a few girls over the summer using day game while I was still trying on the whole player thing, and went from # close to a couple of low key, casual dates. I wasn’t looking to have relationships with them, but I can see things happening that way if you wanted it. If you’re as good looking as Sue says, then I don’t see why that wouldn’t work. I had a pretty good “close” rate (I hate talking in terms like that), and of the girls I got numbers from and pursued, I never had a girl think it strange when I asked her to hang out afterward. Anyway, something to think about.

    You make a good point, but I find myself hard up on time to consistently pursue these social situations outside of what I would normally do. The activities that I enjoy, competitive sports, working out, playing poker, going to movies, etc. don’t exactly lend themselves to an abundance of approachable women. Maybe I’m just making excuses, idk.

    And daygame is not a terrible thought I guess. I have never really gone that route, and I wouldn’t be afraid to approach someone, but I wouldn’t be surprised if I was a little rusty to start.

  • Just1X

    The comment count has just decreased from 749 (the highest I saw) to 742

    whassup?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The comment count has just decreased from 749 (the highest I saw) to 742

      whassup?

      I deleted comments from Linksys after someone observed that it was Feminist Ex. I agree, she’s a troll. Now I see a new one, so annoying.

  • http://rationalmale.wordpress.com Rollo Tomassi

    @Suz,

    These women are probably not emotionally stable then,..?

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/horrible-reactions-to-chris-brown-at-the-grammys

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rollo

      Re: Suz

      I think you are developing a soft spot for me.

      These women are probably not emotionally stable then,..?

      That’s truly horrendous. What a terrible reflection on American society. IIRC, you have a daughter. I don’t know how old she is, but can you imagine raising a young woman who would say she wants to be beat up by Chris Brown?

  • Jason

    @Wudang

    Well thought out and engaging post. Thanks for your time. I’ll definitely look into those names you dropped and see what I can pick up from them.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jason

    I managed to see your photos. Not bad at all. You’re cute, but I am going to be “that girl” who says she really isn’t into a lot of muscles on men. Don’t let that be a deterrent though. There are plenty of women out there who cream themselves over nice biceps. They probably outnumber women like me. I guarantee it.

    It’s because they might feel the guy isn’t ltr material. I’ve heard women stereotype handsome hunks as jerks and players.”

    I’ve seen this happen too. Women aren’t dumb. We know that if a man is attractive, the likelihood of him having a few dozen women swarming around him is high. The women who aren’t bothered by that possibility are typically the women who feel they can compete against the other women or who feel they are attractive enough to land the guy in question.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Precisely why this shy guy is losing points with me by the second and the pro-active initiator is seeming more and more attractive

    Err that would be different for me. I love shy guys they aren’t keeping me guessing on purpose but their nature is to be shy. So I would be more interested on the shy guy than the pro-active guy, but that is my own quirk, I guess.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    I went after you a few threads ago for this and… dun dun dun, I’m back again. :-P

    Well, this is where we get into semantics. A girl who has sex with a guy the night she met him is not a “good” girl, IMO. Could be she has a low number, but she is definitely NOT relationship material.

    There are no extenuating circumstances. If a girl fucks strangers, then you shouldn’t date her.

    Women who feed off of easy validation from inebriated strangers sound shallow to me.

    I just like a woman with values. And standards.

    I’ve been following you on this line of thinking for awhile, and to be honest, I’m still scratching my head. On one hand, you seem to be saying a girl who has full P in V ONSs is not relationship material and has no standards. Okay, I’m willing to entertain that thought. On the other, you’re broadening the scope of your categorization here when you say things about women who “feed off of easy validation from inebriated strangers.” That’s not sex, that’s any girl who goes to a bar and feels good when a guy offers to buy her a drink.

    And the problem is, when you make your “bad for relationships” pile that broad, you write off a whole lotta girls. Normally I’d let it go, but you’re giving advice to other dudes here, and I’m trying to figure out whether it’s good advice.

    If you’ve followed the story, you know my BF and I essentially met in a bar. That doesn’t mean our relationship sucks, or that I like him for “shallow” reasons. It seems like the bar thing isn’t your scene. That’s cool. But I’m trying to figure out why you’re extrapolating that experience to the rest of the male population, and claiming that a guy who meets a girl in a bar is more likely to end up with a shallow chick.

    Having a “bad for relationships” pile isn’t inherently a bad thing, but I feel like there are more accurate standards by which to filter out these ladies.

  • VD

    Vox, what are the numbers on cheating? And speaking of numbers I think because of your background in economics a great couple of posts on your blog could be to look closer at all sorts of statistics on marriage and the SMP. We need more precision and I think you could suply that precision.

    I’ve seen various studies and they’re really pretty poor, in my opinion. It seems like half the time, it’s a ridiculous survey of 30 students at the academic’s university. To be honest, I’d probably place more trust in a poll of the readers here. With Susan’s permission, I may put together a ProProfs poll that we can jointly link to from HUS, AG, and perhaps MMSL as well to see if we can get some substantive data worth crunching. Since you’ve requested it, I’ll be sure to include some questions on cheating. I think it would be interesting to learn how many times people cheated on their boyfriends and girlfriends and subsequently went on to cheat during their marriages.

    Sure, she’s brilliant. My problem is that she is often quoted in the ‘sphere as the female whose perspective validates Game, when she is really more representative of androgynes (a subject she embraces) or men, than she is of women. I can find nothing in her that I feel represents women–and I’m a fairly masculine-minded woman.

    I concur. La Paglia is totally useless as a representative of anything, but especially her sex. She is primarily of value for her pure intellect and her depth of classical knowledge. Unfortunately, I think her fame and her fixation on pop culture caused her to waste her potential; she wanted to be seen as the heir to Susan Sontag, which I always felt was a sadly trivial goal. And rather difficult to do for someone who didn’t want to bother with novels.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      It seems like half the time, it’s a ridiculous survey of 30 students at the academic’s university.

      I can’t wrap my mind around that – why bother? I agree, we could get some really good data among our sites. I’d love to participate in a poll with you and Athol. Keeping in mind, of course, that none of our sites is representative of the general population. Still, perhaps we can shed some light on dynamics that would be of interest to our readers.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I’m totally the same way! It makes me insecure to not know where I stand. I hate feeling that way and flaky guys make me lose interest fast. My boyfriend was very upfront about how he felt about me and it made me like him more — not less!

    My hubby the same but then traveling 3000 miles to meet me, he really had no many arguments to say he was not serious about us ;)

    Haha, I love that idea! Let me put in a request for t-shirt slogans. If anyone has any ideas, shoot them to me. I’ll even pick a winner and give a prize.
    I had sex with a guy who acted like an asshole, but I knew he did it because he wanted to hide his nice side till the right woman (ME) came allong, it turns out that he was really an asshole. :(

    Maybe I’ve just been looking for the holy grail. The good girl that I flip one night cuz she is powerless to resist me and who I also fall crazy for. Can’t blame a guy for wishing haha.
    Men already shared that stupid fantasy here, is like the one about changing a man with the power of their vagina’s. Welcome to the unrealistic club, is crowded here so be careful.

    I don’t understand how any person can live by two different sets of rules:
    1. How I behave when I’m single.
    2. How I behave when I’m attached.

    Cosign this.

    @Iggles
    Hubby and I met the same way. Of course I like to fantasize that if we had meet in different circumstances we had find a way to each others heart’s somehow. ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      This didn’t sink in until you commented on it:

      Maybe I’ve just been looking for the holy grail. The good girl that I flip one night cuz she is powerless to resist me and who I also fall crazy for.

      This is the exact same fantasy women have about a player! What are the implications? Get player together with good girl and incredible chemistry and …happy ever after?

      I had sex with a guy who acted like an asshole, but I knew he did it because he wanted to hide his nice side till the right woman (ME) came allong, it turns out that he was really an asshole.

      I love it. You are the first entrant.

  • Mike C

    @Mike C

    My guess was that you were going to say that women see him and their bodies tell them to get pregnant by him immediately.

    Other reasons might be:

    1. They see Jason and know he’s got to be a player in this SMP. As such, he has no need to ask women out on dates. If he does so, they wonder, “What’s wrong with this guy? Is he lame and supplicating even though he’s good looking?”

    2. They figure their odds of locking Jason down are slim, so why go there. A quick bang gets you access to those pecs, and you can pretend you didn’t want to date him anyway. This would hold for girls less attractive than he is, but he’s said clearly he doesn’t compromise on looks – he can pull hot girls even for casual.

    @ Susan,

    Are those listed reasons 1 and 2 what you think I thought, or what you actually think yourself? I was genuinely curious what you thought the actual dynamic at play was.

    To the first sentence, I wasn’t going to say that. Is that a possibility on some primal, reptilian brain level? Maybe….I don’t know but I am NOT going to make that claim.

    FWIW, your #1 is basically what I think. Essentially, in this SMP, a guy who by ALL outward appearances is very high value essentially communicates some kind of lower value by following the traditional process. Some of the women are basically asking “what is wrong with this picture”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Are those listed reasons 1 and 2 what you think I thought, or what you actually think yourself? I was genuinely curious what you thought the actual dynamic at play was.

      I’m not sure – I found it puzzling when he said that. I know a lot of young women who are trying online dating, and they absolutely love going on real dates as opposed to “meeting up” while already out with friends. Here’s what I think. I think Jason knows how to pull women who respond very predictably to asshole game. I think he wants a different kind of woman long-term, but he has had no practice at wooing women. They’ve all fallen into his lap, face first. He knows his SMV is sky high (even though he’s modest here) and he knows that his natural partner is a gorgeous woman who is not a slut. I think that when he finds a way to connect with women like that, his traditional approach will be welcomed.

      FWIW, your #1 is basically what I think. Essentially, in this SMP, a guy who by ALL outward appearances is very high value essentially communicates some kind of lower value by following the traditional process. Some of the women are basically asking “what is wrong with this picture”.

      Yeah, I don’t disagree. This theory makes sense to me.

  • WarmWoman

    @leapofabeta

    How long have you been in MA? I felt like people were cold and too loud at first, but I don’t feel that anymore. My social life here is more active than it was in the friendly midwest. That’s probably b/c I live alone and don’t answer to anyone. ;)

    @Jesus “I ended up crashing with friends or falling asleep between Ditmars Blvd and Coney Island on the N train until I had money for an apartment.”

    That sounds rough, but that’s also why I was hesitant to leave abruptly. My friend left her home (similar to mine) at age 18, and said how she had to dodge pimps, drug dealers and creepy landlords that wanted sex in exchange for rent.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    You’re taking things personally. I’m not saying you’re a bad girl, but I think it’s common knowledge that it’s bad strategy to look for a relationship at a bar. I go to bars occasionally, but it’s mainly to hang out with friends. Honestly, with the exception of a week spent in Myrtle Beach, I’ve never gone to bars looking for women.

    Anybody who regularly spends weekends in venues where it’s too loud and full of alcohol to have an interesting conversation is… a bit shallow. Or more shallow than I’d consider for a relationship.

    As for the other bit, I didn’t say a woman’s shallow if it feels nice to be hit on… I said it’s shallow to go to a bar seeking out that sort of validation. I stand by that.

    If men have low expectations of women, then they shouldn’t wonder when they find women who live up to them.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Warm Woman,

    That sounds rough, but that’s also why I was hesitant to leave abruptly. My friend left her home (similar to mine) at age 18, and said how she had to dodge pimps, drug dealers and creepy landlords that wanted sex in exchange for rent.

    Yea, it’s not a strategy I recommend…

  • WarmWoman

    Jesus-Ha, I love it when people think it’s easy to just leave and everything will be rosy (even if they mean well by giving you that advice). The real world doesn’t work that way.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Warm Woman,

    True. Most people never think much beyond the current move. In my case, I think it was the right choice. Or, it’s a choice I made right. Or at any rate, it was the only choice I was willing to consider at the time. And since it’s so entangled with everything that’s happened to me since, it’s not a choice I’d make differently if I were to relive it.

  • WarmWoman

    @Sassy-Another thing is how many women are comfortable with possibly being told that their man is better looking than them or the “What’s HE doing with her?”

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Warm Woman

    I spent a year in Boston, while attending grad school for theatre at BU. I enjoyed the first year of the program, but didn’t see value in immediately jumping into the second two years. Talked with the head of the program and we both came into it advising me to take time off – I think we were both nervous the other would be pissed about it, haha.

    Anyways, during that year I hated the time I was able to spend outside of the theatre and wasn’t impressed by my job opportunities. A bunch of crazy things started happening right after I decided to take the year off, so I moved to Chicago. Love it here enough that I’m looking at grad school possibilities in the midwest instead of going back to BU.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    ****Crazy things started happening that all indicated Chicago would be a good life choice

    That originally wasn’t clear. Doh.

  • WarmWoman

    @LeapofaBeta-Chicago makes sense, because that’s where I used to live. People definitely seemed more open there about sexual discussions and what not. It’s a beautiful and big city. I felt like MA was very puritan-like.

    @Jesus- I’m glad it worked out for you. Plus, you get to learn how to deal with challenging situations.In my case, I just feel like I would have ended up in another bad situation if I left being so vulnerable. Things happen for a reason anyway.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Chris Brown, Katie Perry, Emma Watson…. Is Rollo a 15 yr old girl posing as a married man?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Does the Rational Male do all his research at TMZ?

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,

    You’re taking things personally.

    I know I do take things personally sometimes, and I know I just used myself as an example so it looks like I’m taking it personally, but to be honest, not in this case, no. I’m more interested in thinking about young women as a whole, and it is a very rare lady who doesn’t hang out at a bar on weekends. Maybe as they get older they start moving away from that, but the vast majority of the ladies my age hang out at bars. If they don’t, there’s a high chance they have boyfriends.

    Anybody who regularly spends weekends in venues where it’s too loud and full of alcohol to have an interesting conversation is… a bit shallow. Or more shallow than I’d consider for a relationship.

    That’s cool, it’s your prerogative. I just don’t get why you’re hitting on this point repetitively when addressing the other guys. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: your categorization seriously limits the number that can be placed in the “good women” pile, so if more guys used your standards to weed out the “bad women,” many of them would be unsuccessful, statistically speaking. To me it’s a matter of numbers (and no, I’m not saying the vast majority of women have had sex with assholes. But that doesn’t seem to be your metric).

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “That’s truly horrendous. What a terrible reflection on American society. IIRC, you have a daughter. I don’t know how old she is, but can you imagine raising a young woman who would say she wants to be beat up by Chris Brown?”

    What’s more disturbing is the comments… and guess what they say? If a woman actually admits she wants to be punched of her own volition, then it’s still men’s fault. Only an abused woman would say that under duress, or the man failed to improperly raise her. Nothing about the woman’s own choice, or her mothers own choice, in the situation. All on men.

    I forget who said it, perhaps J, but women are so starved for assertive men, that they will prefer abusive ones, over those who aren’t assertive enough. While likely true, it is, however, their fault and their responsiblity. After all, we just spent a few hundred comments tossing betas under the bus, here on an purported pro-beta site.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OffTheCuff

      After all, we just spent a few hundred comments tossing betas under the bus, here on an purported pro-beta site.

      I really don’t think that’s fair. Let’s be honest. Men find Game because they understand that preselection is a strong influence on women. Men with options, or who appear to have options, generate more attraction in women. It can hardly be a surprise that men with a count of 15 partners are in a position to demonstrate they have attracted women. I remain convinced there is a boomerang effect when a man’s numbers get past a certain point, but up until that point his track record serves him well.

      I am all about selecting for character, and penalizing manwhores for lack of discernment and self-discipline. I just don’t think that 15 partners makes a guy a bad bet for marriage in this SMP. I don’t see how that is disloyal to beta guys.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    That’s great fodder for a novelist.

    Yea. That was part of the allure, and part of why I don’t regret it, since some of those experiences are in my novel. Being a writer is a strange thing, like living on two planes: the first, involvement, the actual living of life; and the second, the observer, the one that’s saying, “This is great, you’re being mugged (or whatever)! We can use this! Remember every detail.”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    I guess we just run in different circles. Most of the people I know don’t make a habit of frequenting bars on a weekly basis. I was actually just asking my girlfriend about this and she said she’s never been a fan of bars and has never been “clubbing” in her life.

  • SayWhaat

    Iggles, did you say you met your boyfriend on OKC? How long did it take for you to have sex with him, after or before the relationship became exclusive?

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    Let me know where you find these girls. They aren’t in grad school. :-P

  • J

    Vox–Wasn’t she a protege of Sontag’s? And then there was a falling out?

  • ExNewYorker

    @OTC

    “After all, we just spent a few hundred comments tossing betas under the bus, here on an purported pro-beta site.”

    :-) I have seen this phenomenon, of gushing over “charming” alphas, so many times, it would make your head swim.

    It’s one of the lessons important reformed betas learn…it you act like you can get away with it, a good chunk of times, you really can.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    it you act like you can get away with it, a good chunk of times, you really can.

    As flip as that sounds, it is full of wisdom.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @ExNewYorker, I don’t gush over “charming” alphas. But then I’m the female counterpart to my husband, who didn’t gush over “hot” girls. I remember gaining a ton of respect for him during a group conversation. Some other guy kept going on and on about Megan Fox, and my husband was like, “who?” Then he said, “oh, yeah I think I know who you’re talking about… whatever.”

    Meanwhile, my ears perked up, and I started thinking, “This guy’s different. Interesting…”

  • WarmWoman

    Offthecuff

    “If a woman actually admits she wants to be punched of her own volition”

    I can understand that, even though it’s not normal. A person can be so beaten down and brainwashed where they think that it’s okay for someone to harm them. I would wonder what happened to the person where they start to WANT to be treated like that.

    “While likely true, it is, however, their fault and their responsiblity.”

    I’m not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that it’s the woman’s fault for staying in an abusive situation or purposely choosing one? Most women I know who end up with abusers don’t realize what they’re getting into.

    Sorry if I’m misunderstanding the context of your post.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Let me know where you find these girls. They aren’t in grad school.

    They’re there. And elsewhere. They’re just not as loud as the girls who spend their weekends shouting out conversations with drunk friends at clubs.

  • J

    That sounds a lot like hermaphroditism.

    In a very mild way–more like having a longer ring finger than having ambiguous genitalia.

    What percentage of the female population do you think has the Skene’s gland? \

    Beats me.

    And again, has anyone ever seen it? Has it been dissected, viewed, studied? Is there any science to be found here?

    I would think so, but theses are really questions for Rum. Here’s an article and photo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skene's_gland

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      I await more specific conclusions. Clearly, the debate rages among scientists. Honestly, I don’t really understand the controversy. If you’re happy with your orgasms, great. Do we really need to be promoting certain bio responses as superior when they are far from universal?

      I don’t quite understand how this could be uncertain. Surely, arousal can be measured and pinpointed. Ejaculate can be scientifically evaluated. Vaginas can be dissected. The whole debate seems sort of sketchy and mythological.

  • WarmWoman

    Olive,

    Are you already in grad school? When I was in grad school, none of us had lives. And my classes were female-dominated with a few soft married men. The routine was study, coffee, study, work to get some money, and catch in a few hours of sleep.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “Most have had an LTR or two, but mostly they prefer to stay single. I don’t know what to tell the CDC – I’ve known these boys for many years, and I hear the stories.”

    CDC + Census Bureau, and the sample size there is in the millions. I think the dichotomy you’re experiencing is reality (nation as a whole) vs. reality (as you’ve seen it). Someone accused you of living in a monogamy bubble, which almost seems like a compliment, but you seem to have a unique insight into the non-monogamy bubble with your focus groups, acquaintances, etc.

    It could be that for every guy you’ve known who’s in the double digits, there are 3 guys somewhere else who’ve been *boringly* monogamous all this time. A lot of guys settle down with a GF in their early 20s, later get married and stay faithful (shock), and their count never goes up again. Then there are single guys getting either nothing, or those really cleaning up in the hookup scene. I came across this article that I had wanted to share during the whole “Male Sexuality” fiasco:

    http://www.livescience.com/16465-monogamy-polygamy-human-behavior.html

    Not as good as the big gov’t research studies, and it’s little dated, but interesting if true. The colorful chart near the bottom summarizes who’s had how many partners during the previous 5 (!) years. 80% of respondents said 0 to 2 partners. 90 said 0 to 4. I honestly don’t think there’s as much sleeping around going on as it seems. But I suppose confirmation bias is all around us.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    WW,
    Yes, I’m in grad school. I personally don’t party, but the people in my program do (or they stay in and study and don’t associate with others in the program). As such, I hang out with my BF’s guy friends or my brother and his friends if I want to socialize.

  • WarmWoman

    Olive,

    oh okay. maybe people did party, but I wasn’t paying attention. I went to school and then left.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ WW

    “Chicago makes sense, because that’s where I used to live. People definitely seemed more open there about sexual discussions and what not. It’s a beautiful and big city. I felt like MA was very puritan-like.”

    Yeah, the puritan and cold/close was what I couldn’t stand.

    I didn’t notice a change in sexual discussions, but thats because of the theatre people for company. If anything there was more if it for me in Boston, probably the theatre tendencies reacting to the rest of how closed off people were.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    You were in a sorority as an undergrad. Maybe your ideas of people in general (and women in particular) are… skewed by that experience. There are quite a few people who look down on the sort of social life that “Greeks” participate in.

  • J

    I think Skene’s glands really do exist, and I know one woman who does “ejaculate.” At one point, she was fearful that she was incontinent, but the liquid was not urine. I don’t think she enjoys sex any more than non-ejaculators do.

    OTOH, I think it’s a pretty rare thing. There’s a genre of porn that revolves around this, and I feel pretty sure that it’s fake.

    I personally fail to see the allure of all this. Sounds messy.

  • Madalyn

    I would also not like a man who made more than 30 partners. If men would say that a woman who had more than ten partners is easy, then what do we call a man like that?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Madalyn

      If men would say that a woman who had more than ten partners is easy, then what do we call a man like that?

      The most common terms are manwhore, manslut and trash dick.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    Actually no I was not in a sorority. Tons of Greek life participants at my school, but I was not one of them.

    Incidentally, I’m living with undergrads now who are not in sororities. They aren’t different from the sorority girls I knew…

  • Mike C

    I would also not like a man who made more than 30 partners. If men would say that a woman who had more than ten partners is easy, then what do we call a man like that?

    A master locksmith?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locksmithing

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “You misunderstood my point”

    No, I understand it perfectly – it’s the same drum you’ve been beating repeatedly since I’ve been back. I just don’t think it works.

    Check back in this space Sunday when I’ll have more time to write. have an alternative interpretation that fits the facts better and that I actually think will appeal more to you.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    I thought you were living at your boyfriend’s parents? Anyway, I don’t know what to say. I’m happy to know people who are far different.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    Has it occurred to you that maybe your view of “assholes” is colored, and that’s why you so vehemently oppose the notion that girls who like assholes aren’t necessarily bad for relationships?

    Just an observation. Your commentary on Rollo continues to interest me.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    I moved out this semester. And saved my relationship. ;-)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    Hm. Could be. I’m not quite sure what you mean by suggesting that my view of them is colored though.

  • Candide

    It’s kinda ironic that Rollo jokingly called this site “Hooking Up Beta” when I’ve never seen Susan actively try to hook any beta up. But she’s “light-heartedly” talked about hooking up handsome playas with her girls a couple of times. As long as they appear to promise repentance, of course. No offence meant, Jason.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Gonna weigh in.

    Most women who work in a group environment or go to school in a group environment where their friends go out and have a few drinks will go out and have a few drinks.

    They’ll do this whether they really want to or not.

    They are influenced by the herd mentality, for one of several reasons. She wants to be closer to her friends in the herd or doesn’t want to get kicked out of the herd. She sees it as a chance to forward her career (work contacts or future work contacts). She doesn’t want to be seen as a future cat lady.

    You will see them on the outside of the group – usually against a wall where there’s less chance of guys talking to her. Or in the middle of the group if they’re dancing, using hot friends as a ‘shield’ as it were. She’ll keep her purse with her at all times rather than set it down. She’ll keep as much on as she can (not take off scarf, coat, etc). She won’t be talking, she won’t let her eyes wander.

    The dividing line of if a girl is a ‘good girl’ or not is if you can take her home. Unless your isolation skills are key you will have to run 10 miles of game perfectly to pry a number from her. I’ve never had luck with it as I’m beginning of both.

    I did have a friend of such a girl try and help me with the good girl once. It was hilarious. I could tell the friend wanted to try and get her friend to have a good time, saying she doesn’t go to bars often. I could also tell the one helping me rated me under her level or had some other reason to not be attracted to me. Otherwise the ‘good girls’ friends will never help you and only get in your way.

    I’d say no one but the smoothest man in the world can get the good girls in bars for these reasons. They’re there, but there’s so many locks, keys, and hurdles in the way that they might as well not be to the average guy.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Leap,

    I’m not suggesting that there are no good girls in bars. I’m suggesting that a guy has a better shot finding them elsewhere. Also, I’m suggesting that a girl whose social life mainly consists of going to bars sounds… less interesting than a girl with a more varied social life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      Just tried to rescue your comment from spam and it disappeared. It was pending, then gone, I have no idea why. I’m sorry – did you by any chance have a copy?

  • Desiderius

    “I know a lot of young women who are trying online dating, and they absolutely love going on real dates as opposed to “meeting up” while already out with friends.

    Essentially, in this SMP, a guy who by ALL outward appearances is very high value essentially communicates some kind of lower value by following the traditional process. Some of the women are basically asking “what is wrong with this picture”.

    Yeah, I don’t disagree. This theory makes sense to me.”

    If it does, then perhaps some more critical analysis of the gap between what your younger friends are telling you and what they’re actually doing would be fruitful.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      If it does, then perhaps some more critical analysis of the gap between what your younger friends are telling you and what they’re actually doing would be fruitful.

      The gap is, as always, between what I see young women doing and what men here tell me young women are doing. I’ve already said I find it hard to imagine any young woman turning down Jason for a date. It does not compute. As he claims this is the case, I can only assume that the women he’s asking out, though obviously different from the women I know, are engaging purely in short-term mating.

      (Obviously, young women trying online dating are not holding dating against men.)

  • Candide

    Those good girls who go to bars once in a blue moon are ripe for a smooth playa. A few have written about this, Assanova being the most prominent. Why? Because they rarely are in that environment and so haven’t quite mastered their bitch shields yet nor are they accustomed to being hit on by suave operators – the kind they likely don’t encounter in their day to day lives. Those good girls are therefore very prone to making a “mistake”. The bar flies more often than not are out for attention whoring and not necessarily sex (usually they go home then call their FBs over).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Candide

      I agree, that’s one of the ways good girls get burned by a cad. Hopefully, they learn from the experience and don’t join the vicious cycle that is the carousel.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The name “Assanova” will linger in my memory like a commercial jingle for longer than I’d care to consider it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The name “Assanova” will linger in my memory like a commercial jingle for longer than I’d care to consider it.

      Assanova now writes a blog called Real Made Men. He says it’s Game for Attractive Men, but he is actually quite opposed to Game, or maybe he is just post-Game:

      The guys who started the seduction community, and their followers, watched guys who were doing good with women, and thought that they found the solution. It was game that got the girls, so the gurus and their various followers went about trying to codify the secret words and techniques to attract women. However, what they failed to see, was that what they perceived as game, was nothing more than confidence, escalation, and most importantly, small talk.

      We all know that American women are easy to sleep with in general, however, what you see, are a bunch of pick-up artists, who continually fail with women, and never really stop to question if the gurus that they follow are wrong. What I akin mainstream pick-up artists and seduction gurus to, are modern day conspiracy theorists. They take a little bit of truth, if it even exists, and turn it into this elaborate theory that is mostly just hot air.

      What they fail to see, is that their huge game conspiracy is nothing more than small talk. Any attractive guy that is confident, escalates, and is good with small talk, will easily get women. Not because he has all of these elaborate game techniques that he uses, but because there really is nothing there; he is just really good at small talk. The same guy that is naturally good with women, is also the same guy that is a good conversationalist in general.

      I think that the reason why PUAs have so much trouble with women, is because of their game conspiracy, and their absolute refusal to let go of it. They go into these conversations with women with their minds absolutely made-up about what they will say and do, and in turn, it just makes the flow of conversation really unnatural and contrived. It makes them come off as complete try-hards, it becomes obvious to women sooner or later, and it makes them really unattractive.

      When you let go of game, you’ll do much better with women. Why? Because it has already been proven that women are the more social of the two sexes; and game is very much a social tool. Trying to beat them at their own game is just wishful thinking. If you know that women are the more social of the two sexes, and that you can’t beat them at their own game, why are you still trying to? That’s the question that you really need to ask yourself.

      http://www.realmademen.com/2012/02/its-all-just-small-talk.html

  • Desiderius

    “That’s all I got. In summary, asking for dates = beta and pump & dump = alpha. Am I right?”

    Yep. I’d add that the higher SMV the women, the more they’re attracted to the dump.

    The sexiest sons don’t commit.

    To anyone.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’d add that the higher SMV the women, the more they’re attracted to the dump.

      Strongly disagree. They’re attracted to the alpha who in days or yore would have married them after college graduation. It sucks for them that the sexiest sons don’t commit, but it doesn’t stop them from being attracted to the sexiest sons, as they are the sexiest daughters.

  • Candide

    We get that you’re the special one, JM. You don’t have to remind us in every post you make.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ JM

    Ok. Then I’d agree.

    Your language was unclear then. You made it sound like your stance was there were no good girls in bars.

    I’d also say that any ‘good girl’ that meets a man in a bar and gives him her number is likely giving her number to an Alpha or someone with a count well over 15.

    In this specific instance I’ll qualify ‘good girl’ as someone that won’t sleep with a man that same night.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Candide,

    Huh?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Leap,

    In this specific instance I’ll qualify ‘good girl’ as someone that won’t sleep with a man that same night.

    True. Or, more specifically, someone who’s not going to sleep with someone unless she gets a commitment or thinks things are leading to one. The latter would be good and foolish though.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ JM

    Agreed. So we can find good girls at bars. Men good at it can get their numbers. Men able to convince her he’ll commit can sleep with her under the right circumstances.

    Now, can we all agree and move on? And never come back? I grow tired of this old discussion.

    I want to nail it and move on.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Men able to convince her he’ll commit can sleep with her under the right circumstances.

    First night? No. Then I’d say she’s not a “good” girl. By which, of course, I don’t mean a good person, but a good relationship prospect.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    But yea, you can meet a good girl at a bar and start up a relationship with her. Never said you couldn’t. Just that I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone as a strategy.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ JM

    So you don’t think someone who has really good game can, in one night, convince a drunk, good girl who made a foolish choice that he’d commit to her?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @LofB
    It’s been done. I’ve witnessed it. The girl’s usually in the dumps for at least a week afterwards. And that’s just on the outside. One of the reasons I really don’t like players (however you define them).

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    I should precede this by saying everyone has a colored view of everything. Such is the nature of reality…. we create our own realities.

    In any case, you’ve changed your tune recently. Maybe you haven’t detected it, but I have. It’s extremely “anti-asshole.” You’ve got a very firm opinion of Rollo but you don’t seem to appreciate his intellectual contributions to the manosphere discussion. I’ve read that you think FFY is scraping the bottom rungs of the women in the SMP. Maybe, I don’t know. But Candide’s post at 804 rings a bell for me.

    Anyway, rather than rip on the guys, in this thread you’ve chosen to rip on the girls who fall for them. I still think it’s rooted in how you feel about the guys.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      In any case, you’ve changed your tune recently. Maybe you haven’t detected it, but I have. It’s extremely “anti-asshole.”

      And this is a problem why? I certainly have no use for assholes – I reject their jaded cynicism and thinly veiled loathing of women. If they are smart, and can write well, that just makes them dangerous as well as unpleasant.

      Speaking of which, the real Roissy is apparently back and in full control. The writing is back to being excellent. Is this a kinder and gentler Roissy? Still in love?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    So you don’t think someone who has really good game can, in one night, convince a drunk, good girl who made a foolish choice that he’d commit to her?

    No.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    Oh, yea, I have a sort of cheerful disdain for people like FFY and Rollo. I don’t make a secret about that. But that’s always been the case.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    Why not? Because that girl is, by default, no longer a good relationship prospect?

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    I honestly don’t doubt you Megaman. I haven’t seen it at bars, but I’ve seen it at house parties in college where there are more social pressure for women to go, less limitations on behavior once they get there and FAR LESS layers of defense for the woman to put around herself.

    I honestly am just trying to expand minds to how a player can get a good girl. Starting with that those girls do indeed frequent bars and that circumstances allow it to happen. And that I wouldn’t disqualify a woman for it happening once or twice like I think I saw JM write once.

    The idea that a good girl can’t fall for game is silly. The guy just needs the right circumstances. What he does with it after will define him as smooth, suave guy or a douche who pumps and dumps. But that’s neither here nor there in this dicussion, atleast not a concern of mine.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Why not? Because that girl is, by default, no longer a good relationship prospect?

    Right. Now that girl can change, can become good–I’m not consigning her to perdition for good. But sleeping with a guy she just met… yea, that makes her not good.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    It’s been done. I’ve witnessed it. The girl’s usually in the dumps for at least a week afterwards. And that’s just on the outside. One of the reasons I really don’t like players (however you define them).

    I think you’re giving the girls you’ve seen it happen to too much credit, Mega.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    And that I wouldn’t disqualify a woman for it happening once or twice like I think I saw JM write once.

    Right, because I believe that people can change.

  • Candide

    JM, you seem obsessively invested in showcasing yourself as a special snowflake above it all than participating in a honest discussion. This has been a very clear pattern in the last few months since you got yourself a girlfriend.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Interesting JM…..

    I personally think the whole ‘lowered inhibitions’ part of alcohol could do it to women that are still a good relationship choice. I think they’d be foolish for making the choices leading up to that, but that it happens. Friends peer pressuring them to have another round they shouldn’t have combined with already lowered inhibitions from the previous drinks lead to it. Doesn’t help if the woman didn’t drink enough water, eat, or has some other unusual circumstance leading to a lower tolerance that she might forget about once the drinks start happening.

    Foolish mistakes, but still mistakes. Still can be a good girl and a good relationship material though.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @LofB
    Epilogue: The situation you describe happened to a couple of female friends of mine, and not just in bars. However, each of them learned her lesson (the hard way) after getting burned that first time, as far as I know. I also think there’s a lot of undiagnosed alcoholism that fuels this kind of thing.

    I wouldn’t have personally held that kind of thing against a woman, unless it was recurring. I’ve also seen the flipside of this scenario play out: the girl is actually dating the guy for 1-3 months. He shows interest in being exclusive, but then disappears after the deed is done. To me, that’s pretty damn cold…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Epilogue: The situation you describe happened to a couple of female friends of mine, and not just in bars. However, each of them learned her lesson (the hard way) after getting burned that first time, as far as I know. I also think there’s a lot of undiagnosed alcoholism that fuels this kind of thing.

      I wouldn’t have personally held that kind of thing against a woman, unless it was recurring. I’ve also seen the flipside of this scenario play out: the girl is actually dating the guy for 1-3 months. He shows interest in being exclusive, but then disappears after the deed is done. To me, that’s pretty damn cold…

      It happens every weekend at every campus in the country. Players and cads here have admitted it’s one of the key ways they get notches. IIRC correctly, FFY acknowledged this.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Megaman
    Agree with you all around on that comment.

  • Mike C

    In any case, you’ve changed your tune recently. Maybe you haven’t detected it, but I have. It’s extremely “anti-asshole.”

    Well…here’s the thing. I honestly have no clue what we are talking about when we use the term “asshole” in this context. Only “bad girls” have sex with “assholes”?

    I’m assuming asshole cannot mean a guy who has had a lot of casual sex in a short timespan because Jesus himself did that this past summer as I recall, and I don’t think he considers himself an asshole.

    When we talk about narcissists, sociopaths, and the Dark Triad, that is more rigorous, because we’ve got some definable criteria and metrics. Take Jason. Jesus said earlier upthread he seemed like a good guy. I think Susan did as well, but then later talked about him running asshole game.

    I think the whole “asshole” thing is kind of ridiculous. Bottom line, it seems to me what really is being said is that guys who many women find attractive and sleep with quickly are assholes….because well that is what assholes do. The whole thing is kind of an absurd tautology. It is a way to layer a negative connotation and pejorative context onto some observable effect we really don’t want to acknowledge except if we can attach a negative to it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Take Jason. Jesus said earlier upthread he seemed like a good guy. I think Susan did as well, but then later talked about him running asshole game.

      He is in the process of reforming. He seems earnest. I commend that.

      I think the whole “asshole” thing is kind of ridiculous. Bottom line, it seems to me what really is being said is that guys who many women find attractive and sleep with quickly are assholes….because well that is what assholes do.

      No. Jason described himself by saying he acts like a dick, pushes hard to get women back to his place to have sex, and dictates the terms of the relationship from there on out, i.e. pump & dump or harem. That makes him a douche by female standards. Asshole, Douche, Cad, Dick. Take your pick.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Candide,

    Hm. I think that I came to a point of greater self-acceptance. That was prior to dating my girlfriend, but part of what allowed me to open up to a relationship again. Maybe that’s what you see as my “special snowflake” attitude. I’ve simply come to the realization that I am a much richer, fully developed, and “realer” person than can be captured by “game” theory. I don’t fit into the mold. I don’t fit into any mold.

    And, btw, I don’t think you do either. Or Leap. Or anyone else for that matter. We’re all fucking snowflakes. And the moment you experience that freedom to live out of your own center, your own source, “game” as it’s typically understood around here becomes a hindrance more than anything.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan,

    “The most common terms are manwhore, manslut and trash dick.”

    I’d imagine you’d need qualify that to not include some recent commenters. No offence, Jason :-)

    Personally, I’d use the term: “attractive to women”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ENY

      I’d imagine you’d need qualify that to not include some recent commenters.

      No, Jason is clearly a manwhore.

      Personally, I’d use the term: “attractive to women”.

      Personally, I can’t stop thinking about the places those penises have been. Gross.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    The idea that a good girl can’t fall for game is silly. The guy just needs the right circumstances. What he does with it after will define him as smooth, suave guy or a douche who pumps and dumps.

    Yes, this. And I think that’s where this discussion has been leading all this time. There are the “good relation prospects” who apparently don’t fall for game, and the “bad relationship prospects” who do.

    It doesn’t work that way. Having been a NAWALT girl, gone through some serious introspection, and had more realizations about my own attraction triggers lately, I can tell you I don’t know a girl, including myself, who does not fall for game.

    I just told my friend about the alpha-beta dichotomy after she essentially told me she’s considering dumping her BF for being too beta. When I told her, she said “oh yeah! I’ve always been into the beta guys.” And I said “ermm… I really think you’re going for a mix.” In other words, she also tried to tell me she doesn’t fall for “game,” in her own words, but she’s wrong.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike C,

    I don’t think players are assholes, necessarily. I’m fine with men who want to sleep with women casually. Heck, I’m fine with women who want to sleep with men casually. Dark Triad guys are assholes, of course. People who lack empathy, integrity, people who don’t try to increase the fund of happiness in the world, overly pessimistic people, etc…

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    Responding to game doesn’t necessarily mean sleeping with a man you just met. If you thought I was heading towards, “good girls don’t respond to game,” then you were mistaken.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Mike C,

    I think the whole “asshole” thing is kind of ridiculous. Bottom line, it seems to me what really is being said is that guys who many women find attractive and sleep with quickly are assholes….because well that is what assholes do. The whole thing is kind of an absurd tautology. It is a way to layer a negative connotation and pejorative context onto some observable effect we really don’t want to acknowledge except if we can attach a negative to it.

    Three cheers. You said it much better than I could’ve. But yes that is my position as well… this whole asshole thing really seems to be about a phenomenon currently being observed that many people don’t like.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Foolish mistakes, but still mistakes. Still can be a good girl and a good relationship material though.

    I disagree. I think that she’d have to grow, change, whatever, in order to be considered good relationship material.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Hope

    “ExNewYorker, I don’t gush over “charming” alphas. ”

    I think at this point, it’s been pretty well established that you’re an outlier :-)

    I don’t doubt there are more outliers like yourself…I imagine Anacaona being the type to want to wash her hands after shaking a cad’s hand. It’s just I’ve seen much more of the other, of trying to excuse the alphas: “he really is a good guy, you just gotta see below the surface”. Yeah, any more below the surface and you wind up in Mongolia…

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    “We’re all fucking snowflakes.”

    Honestly, I’ve met a fair number of people over the years I’d describe as hailstones instead : |

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “Foolish mistake” absolves the person of responsibility. “Poor girl, she didn’t know better.” I believe in accepting responsibility for our actions.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Heck, I’m fine with women who want to sleep with men casually.

    ‘Cept they don’t make good relationship prospects…

    Responding to game doesn’t necessarily mean sleeping with a man you just met. If you thought I was heading towards, “good girls don’t respond to game,” then you were mistaken.

    Okay, but one response to game is “oh yes please take me now!”

    There is nothing “moral” or “void of character” about it. All of this game stuff is really about biological attraction triggers. You’ll remember that when I first came around, I used to talk about smashing down my own hypergamy. I now realize that it was silly… feeling ashamed of a biological instinct is unproductive and not particularly introspective.

    Hypergamous girls are not “bad” or “good” relationship prospects. They’re just hypergamous girls. Being normal. There’s a way to channel hypergamy, I think. I’m developing theories about it in my head. See my blog in the coming months. :-P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      There is nothing “moral” or “void of character” about it. All of this game stuff is really about biological attraction triggers.

      With all due respect, I think you’ve changed more than Jesus has. I strongly disagree with your comment, because you reduce women to thinking only with the hindbrain, and ignore the role of the cerebral frontal cortex, which controls reason and rational decision-making.

      Not sleeping with a champion seducer is largely a matter of character. If it were not, any wife who encountered one would cheat on her husband. I don’t argue that having casual sex is immoral, but it is certainly an indication of a woman’s personality traits and character.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    “I think the whole “asshole” thing is kind of ridiculous. Bottom line, it seems to me what really is being said is that guys who many women find attractive and sleep with quickly are assholes….because well that is what assholes do. The whole thing is kind of an absurd tautology. It is a way to layer a negative connotation and pejorative context onto some observable effect we really don’t want to acknowledge except if we can attach a negative to it.”

    I agree and think its a ridiculous thing to say that a guy is outright an asshole for having sex with a girl in one night stand situations.

    Does the woman need to be coddled so much that you take all the responsibility for her own choices away from her?

    No, she doesn’t.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue mentioned the novel Charlotte Simmons by Wolfe (which I haven’t read). The main character is apparently led on by some high status frat guy who she originally writes off as a cad. But he plays some “good guy game” and she eventually lets herself be seduced by him.

    But a girl in that situation is playing a dangerous game. She can find any number of good guys. She’s choosing to try to flip the player, and believes she’s succeeding… until the dump.

    She’s no simple victim. She’s consciously going for the cad, she’s gambling. And she knows it. I’m not sure how Wolfe portrays her, but if he only did it right if she knows it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    There is nothing “moral” or “void of character” about it.

    Yes there is. Don’t fool yourself. “Take me now” when you don’t know a guy is slutty.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ JM
    “I disagree. I think that she’d have to grow, change, whatever, in order to be considered good relationship material.”

    What would she need to grow or change? Its a very specific set of circumstances that lead to this mistake. She’s responsible for it, yes. But how does it make her not relationship material?

    I would say that locking her down with some very good relationship game would make it so that those circumstances simply don’t occur.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    ‘Cept they don’t make good relationship prospects…

    Right.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JM,
    I beg to differ. The girl in that situation is following the ol’ tingle. Normal stuff. Sure, she’s making a bad decision, but she isn’t doing it “knowingly.” She’s doing what her vagina tells her to do.

  • Mike C

    Hypergamous girls are not “bad” or “good” relationship prospects. They’re just hypergamous girls. Being normal. There’s a way to channel hypergamy, I think. I’m developing theories about it in my head. See my blog in the coming months. :-P

    That’s cool. I think the sort of thing you are doing and writing about is sort of the next evolution which is sort of self-development for women

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Leap,

    No, not a mistake. Just a take. To me, fucking a stranger shows she doesn’t respect herself enough and that she doesn’t value intimacy. So that’s what would need to change.

  • Ysabelle

    “And how exactly are mentally healthy children supposed to be raised when everyone changes partners all the time and shares partners and whatnot.”

    Actually I visited a family in the French countryside two summers back. There were 3 sets of couples..each of them had slept with each other at some pt of their lives. My friend’s dad is now with his stepmom, her ex husband is dating my friend’s best friend’s mom. My friend’s mom is dating my friend’s best friend’s mom’s ex husband. The 3 couples and all assorted children did holidays and stuff like christmas together. My friend is rather well adjusted and works a corporate job in Europe..I asked him how he felt bout the intermingling and he said he liked having such a large family because of that. He has an american fetish and ONLY goes for american girls…in fact he told me once…between a french countryside girl baking apple pie and a sophisticated new york cosmopolite, of course I take new york. So yeah..there’s still hope, handsome european guys that are well adjusted despite their mixed crazy families.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I beg to differ. The girl in that situation is following the ol’ tingle. Normal stuff. Sure, she’s makin