Dad or Cad?
In an effort to get a sense of the demographics of his readers, Vox Day recently posted a list of questions and asked for anonymous responses. He got 141 male and 14 female responses, which strikes me as an excellent response rate. He presented some of his data today at Alpha Game, and there was one finding he thought might be the “cad/dad solution” for HUS readers. Here it is:
6. There is a noticeable difference between the Alphas and the High Alpha players. The obvious dividing line there is around 40+ partners. So, there is the all-important distinction that many women have requested. Any man with more than 30+ historical partners should probably be assumed to be a ruthless player unfit for a long-term relationship as 62% of the men in this category were anti-marriage; only the male virgins, at 66%, were more strongly anti-marriage. This compares with the 80% of Alphas in the 15-30 category who were pro-marriage; all of those who were anti-marriage were irreligious and most were divorced.
(Note: After looking at the data, Vox defined Alpha as 15+ partners.)
It should also be noted that for the purposes of his survey, Vox defined the number of sexual partners as including oral sex. Generally at HUS we do not include oral sex, so adjust your conclusions accordingly.
From Vox:
In other words, if a woman is addicted to Alpha and insists on attempting to transform a cad into a dad, she can increase her chances of success and actually harbor a reasonable hope of doing so if his partner count is more than 10 but less than 30, and if he is religious as well.
My thoughts:
1. Vox focuses on the lack of relationship fitness of guys who have had 40+ sex partners as a natural consequence of their being anti-marriage, although he also uses the word ruthless to describe their approach to sex. I am not sure which comes first:
- natural cad tendencies
- opportunities for NSA sex
- unwillingness to marry
2. I do not claim that men with 40+ partners would definitely make bad husbands, but regardless of their views of marriage, I would worry about men with that much sexual variety under their belts (heh). The 2004 National Life and Health Survey found:
For every premarital sexual partner, a man’s likelihood of being extremely sexually satisfied in marriage falls 5.3%. This means that a man with a number of 10 before marriage is 53% less likely to be describe himself as extremely satisfied in marriage. By implication, all men with 20 previous partners will feel moderately sexually satisfied in marriage at best.
3. Self-described religious Alphas with counts of 15-30 were pro-marriage. I agree with Vox that these men represent real catches – they’ve achieved significant success with women, but still hold to traditional values. Of course, if a woman is not religious, she is probably not interested in marrying a religious man regardless of his partner count.
4. One commenter at Alpha Game made the following observation about STDs:
There should be a qualifier for those claiming 35 to 40 plus conquests. Have they had/have an STD… And spare me the I always use a condom nonsense. Crabs, the drip, Derek Jeters Simplex 2 self identification would help separate the true players from the posers.
Vox agreed, saying, “Very good point on the STDs. Some of the alpha players I knew used to joke about playing STD bingo.”
This leads me to my previous claims that women are repelled by manwhores. The problem with that claim is that women are clearly repelled only when a certain threshold, i.e. partner count, is reached. Before that tipping point, the male benefits from preselection. A woman’s repulsion probably also depends on how she learns of his sexual past. Does she see him hitting on slutty women in public? Or does he tell her honestly that back in the day he pulled quite a few girls, but now he’s ready for a serious relationship? I know I would respond very differently in those two scenarios.
I don’t think 15-30 partners is very worrisome or predictive of much, especially if that number includes blowjobs. I agree with Vox that there are plenty of dads in that cohort.
30-40+ partners seems as good a place as any to draw a line for defining a cad. Since they wish to avoid marriage, even in their 30s, I’d say that high a number should probably be a dealbreaker for long-term dating.
Vox has indeed proposed a strategically sound solution to the dad/cad dilemma.
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@HUS
hopefully this is the 1st comment.
” It used to be called illegitimacy. Now it is the new normal. After steadily rising for five decades, the share of children born to unmarried women has crossed a threshold: more than half of births to American women under 30 occur outside marriage.”
i don’t think it is OT, since the post is about # of partners. here is the link to the NY article
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/us/for-women-under-30-most-births-occur-outside-marriage.html
Question for the married women- Do your partners know your count? Mine knows mine by default, but I have no idea about my husband’s. I can extrapolate aguess from the fact that he’s personally conservative, but also really hot and a dude. To be perfectly honest I would only care if it was very low. Which is incredible, as it was VERY important to my husband that I was relatively chaste, even though he is nowhere near religious.
Flavia´s last [type] ..Blondes are Evil: Part two
“Self-described religious Alphas with counts of 15-30 . . .”
Seems like a bit of a contradiction in terms, absent a late life conversion (how convenient).
@Flavia
Are you saying that if you learned your husband had a low number of previous partners, you would feel less attracted to him?
@Passer By
Yes, VD made that point. He said that if it wasn’t late in life, then the religiosity would obviously be questionable. I believe that describes VD himself, so it does happen.
@Flavia
I just had a great time digging around on your blog. I loved the Home Ec photo, very timely. And the Valentine’s Day post, that was really clever. I’ve added you to the Blogroll, and you should sign up for Comment Luv too!
Susan: “Generally at HUS we do not include oral sex”
What?!
Then I want my money back!
SW: “Self-described religious Alphas with counts of 15-30 . . .”
Passer_By: ” Seems like a bit of a contradiction in terms, absent a late life conversion (how convenient).”
ha ha Born-again betas?
My husband and I know each other’s exact number of past partners. We’re both single digit, but I had long relationships whereas he did not.
Personally I think it’d be better for young girls to look for guys who have a single-digit past (counting oral) than guys who are “reformed” and looking to get married.
I’d rather make sure to get a real dad than a cad in dad’s clothing.
Seems like a bit of a contradiction in terms, absent a late life conversion (how convenient).
It’s not exactly unheard of, given that Augustine of Hippo described the concept in his Confessions back in the year 398. And if you consider it, it makes some sense that those who have tried everything, tasted the best that the world has to offer, and ultimately found it to be unfulfilling might be somewhat more disposed to turn to religion than the average individual. It’s similar the way ex-smokers and ex-drinkers are often relatively intolerant of smoking and drinking.
Also, there is the personality element. Just as Michael Jordan is a ruthless competitor on or off the basketball court, a reformed player may be as single-minded about to his new commitments as he once was to chasing women. I’m not suggesting that it is wise for women to chase Alphas, I actually think it is very risky. But if a woman is going to do it – and as we all know, many will – the available evidence suggests that there are ways for her to increase her probabilities of LTR success by being careful to distinguish between a moderate-count Alpha and a high-count High Alpha player.
So much fodder here, I tell ya! I think Vox is onto several good, solid points here, and any guy whose notch count is into three digits has some pretty serious issues which no sensible woman should want to, ahem, penetrate.
I’m not sure exactly what a “cad” is circa 2012 but I’m pretty certain that, on occasion, a cad (or perhaps semi-cad) can become a dad – I saw one when I looked into the mirror while shaving this morning – and, unfortunately, more than a few dads turn into cads after being a**-raped in a bad divorce. Not like the boundary is all that well defined or firmly fixed, all I’m sayin’ …
The issue, if you’re an Alpha who’s bedded platoons of women, is why you’ve done it. Note: biological urges or climbing Everest because it’s “there” are not the answers I’m talking about. Alphas with high notch counts, the guys who are naturals who get same-night lays with hot girls seemingly effortlessly, are two distinct types (yes, I am speaking from the inside, as it were): 1. Men who hate women, and 2. Men who love women.
That clear it up?
What I mean is men who really deeply loathe women are Category 1. They are acting out pathologies perhaps deep in them which have been reinforced by what I will euphemistically term “current trends.” They are scary dudes you don’t want to get near. Sociopathy isn’t fun up-close, I promise.
But guys in Category 2 appear similar, superficially and at a distance, but have very different motivations. They are masculine guys, man’s men, yet they have had a lot of foundational female experience – usually a close yet healthy relationship with mommy, sisters, aunts, et al – and know how to talk to women and feel empathy without going girly themselves. Those guys are firmly Alpha yet actually like women as women (not the annoying ones, mind you, the nice ones). They get laid massively and they are not toxic, in fact the right one will make you a better woman.
The difference, ladies, is learning to tell the difference: very important. If you know anything about male psychology the clues are easy to spot. Detecting them is the difference between dating a bad guy and dating a good guy. Different experiences and outcomes, I promise. They are both attractive to you and your hamster, be careful!
As for manwhores – not a good thing, but I gotta say, my high (yet not insane, indicating professional sex work) notch count never held me back. And, hey, I’m really good in bed, what can I say? Every gal wants to be the one who tames the Alpha. Hope springs eternal, of course, but it can happen.
I’ll remind my lovely wife of that when she’s making dinner tonight.
And I forgot: religious Alphas are rare yet do exist. They’re actually conflicted and following the St Augustine line about “make me chaste, Lord, but not yet.” A noble tradition, if you will. They feel sorta bad about it all, but not enough to stop. Until Miss Right comes along.
During the journey from bed to bed there are long conversations with therapists, friends, and clergy – I recall quite a few tough confessions myself, fortunately my priest was straight; it’s funny now.
That’s it? 15 makes you Alpha?
I don’t buy this. I was no Alpha and it was easy for me to rack up near that by the time I graduated college and I was NOT aggressive with women. Also, I was very short, cute but not gorgeous, and in a field where people assumed I’d make no money.
I think it’s more like 25-30 makes you Alpha and 70 makes you Super Alpha. I always felt like I was missing out and other guys were doing better, but I was afraid of disaster if I bedded mentally unstable women (which happened) or women that would get too attached (ditto).
Anyway, nice post.
DBA, a high body count does not an ALPHA make.
TCL: This gets into the highly subjective field of what a “high” notch (not “body” – this isn’t ‘Nam, man) count is. It’s like a duck, really – guys know how to identify the feathers and distinctive quack.
And I firmly agree that the essence of Alpha is the ability to bang lots of chicks, not necessarily doing it. I didn’t give up being an Alpha the day I got married: impossible.
That said, I have met very few Alphas – and zero naturals (as opposed to guys who read up on Game and got good at it) – with a low count.
Could happen, seldom seems to.
“I don’t buy this. I was no Alpha and it was easy for me to rack up near that by the time I graduated college and I was NOT aggressive with women. Also, I was very short, cute but not gorgeous, and in a field where people assumed I’d make no money.”
You could easily fall into the ‘natural Alpha’ distinction. You don’t have to make lots of money or be aggressive with your pursuit of women to be Alpha. Most of it is being outcome independent (not aggressive) and show that you have value.
Personally, I’m about the same only I’m lower in count and would consider myself a greater Beta. I work in theatre (aka poor but able to make a living at it), and at 26 have a count of 10 under Vox’s guidelines of oral.
Rollo just had a great post about what makes an Alpha – namely its what attracts women. Contexts are key. If you don’t attract women, you’re not Alpha. If you do, you are. I think this definition is great at breaking down some of the previous barriers in approaching the definitions and, hopefully, will lead to some interesting discussions.
For example – that bad boy in high school/college that had a motorcycle, shitty apartment, but fearless attitude would probably be Alpha. A STEM guy working hard at college, only dating one girl for three years probably classified as Beta. You take the same men, 15 years later and the first may have lost all attractiveness because of health issues, no income, etc. He’s gone from Alpha to Delta. The second could have gained a healthy dose of self esteem, great income, good with ladies now. Instead of dating one girl he has a choice of 4 pursuing him. He’s gone from beta to Alpha because he’s seen as a catch.
All about context.
Leap of a Beta´s last [type] ..Keeping Your Head Down
That’s it? 15 makes you Alpha?
No, that’s not it. It’s merely an important indicator. This should be obvious, since we’re discussing a socio-sexual hierarchy and therefore mere sexual history cannot be the sole determining factor. Perhaps you’re slumming. Perhaps you’re lucky. Perhaps you were raised in a bizarre sex cult. Who knows? But 15+ does tend to indicate that you may be an Alpha or at least possess an amount of genuine Alpha potential. Even if Tom Brady had never been involved with any other women than Giselle Bundchen and Bridget Moynahan, he would be much more of an Alpha than Joe Dude at Podunk University who has cut a wide swath through the sisters of Slagga Nasta Slutta.
Game is an art, not a science, and as with economics, one can’t simply start assigning meaning to numbers and declare one has thereby determined meaningful results. It’s very important not to latch on to every guideline and indicator in an attempt to turn it into a cast-iron rule.
Question for the married women- Do your partners know your count? Mine knows mine by default, but I have no idea about my husband’s.
He knows that I had only had sex with him, he doesn’t really want to know how many boyfriends or how many times I had been in love. I do know all his exes name’s who he loved the most, why they broke up and so on. he is is single digit with no ONS or FWB with makes him good in my eyes. I always though it was a good test to see how a man talks about the former women’s in their lives. I mean one or two bad experiences can happen to anyone but if all he has to say is that all her exes are crazy witches that abused the poor him…run to the opposite direction.
Anacaona´s last [type] ..My Queen Bee friend.
Curious.
What other allowances in conclusions are people making when considering the fact that the people reading Vox’s website are more likely to have several things than the general populace:
Higher knowledge of divorce laws
Higher desire to achieve “alpha-ness” or atleast work at not pedestalizing
Readers that also subscribe to other aspects of the Manosphere (Roosh, Rollo, Roissy, etc)
Also, the average age of 37 for the respondents.
While I’m a regular of Vox, I definitely don’t fall into any of the demographics and, with that high an age of respondents, I’m not sure how many marriage prone people my age (26) would fall into these same categories.
I think i’m going to have to go back and read the Millennials post you just did with these new stats in mind.
Leap of a Beta´s last [type] ..Keeping Your Head Down
“Susan: “Generally at HUS we do not include oral sex”
Do you mean you and your spouse, or HUS in general? I’m not sure how happy men would be if a woman only included the 3 people that she had P in V with as her partner count, and then ignored purely oral sex encounters with others. Some of the “technical” virgins I knew in college had 10 oral and anal sex escapades under their belt already.
I have a visceral reaction to a man with 30 partners or more. Call me a hypocrite that I’ve gotten triggered by people judging someone’s past, but perhaps it’s just the fact that 30 partners is much higher than my count that weirds me out.
Exactly. If we’re going to go at this strategically, which is what I try to do, then we need to consider ways of reducing risk and/or increasing the payout. Vox’s solution does that. Is it for everyone? Obviously not; as I said, you have to want a religious guy for starters. I think my biggest worry, and I would need to test it in the relationship, would be that I just couldn’t rock his world sexually after he’d been with 30 women or more.
I just realized something. Are these reformed Alphas now refraining from premarital sex? Because that’s a no go! Why should we have to wait when they gave it to so many other women for free?
“I just realized something. Are these reformed Alphas now refraining from premarital sex? Because that’s a no go! Why should we have to wait when they gave it to so many other women for free? ”
Hahahaha
@Former Playa
Hey, good to see you back here! OK, I have some questions for you.
Agreed, that is very important! Let’s assume for the moment that we don’t know anything about male psychology. What are the clues? How do we tell the difference?
How did your wife tame you? What did she offer? Assuming she had high SMV in keeping with yours, had she ridden the alpha cock carousel or kept her number low? How old were you when you decided to settle down and why? What do you think about the finding that every previous partner reduces marital sexual satisfaction? Do you feel that you crave variety less or more than a guy with a lower number (assuming you have a sense of this)?
You’re probably sorry you stopped by, but we don’t get to quiz former playas very often.
Question for the married women- Do your partners know your count?
Neither of us has ever asked the other for a number or volunteered one, though I believe both of us have low numbers, especially when you consider long years of singlehood. We are both fairly familiar with each other’s history though and know about important relationships. We have also both run into each other’s exes.
It frankly isn’t a big deal for either one of us.
I agree with WW.
If a man that was looking for marriage was in the double digits, I’d probably have to pass. I recognize it probably isn’t fair, but I would be repulsed by it. In my mind, every time a person has sex they give a part of themselves away. After a certain point you just get used up and I don’t want a man that’s been used up. I’m not investing my time on this earth into someone like that. I’m just not.
I keep trying to come up with a rational reason for this repulsion, but I can’t think of one. It’s simply “not right”. I don’t think its something I could get over. When I invest in someone I want them to be mine. I’m selfish when I care about someone. Plus, when men have slept around with that many women odds are quite of few of them were trashy. I don’t do trashy.
I’m very open-minded but I have prude locked down when it comes to who I will consider for sex and a relationship. I still foolishly like to believe that sex is *gasp* special between two people regardless of how much it is devalued currently.
Women wouldn’t have to worry about me competing for alpha’s, I always look on the peripheral anyway. I’ve found that’s where the best people are hiding anyway.
Well, if a cad is the opposite of a dad, then a real cad is the guy who:
- Doesn’t like kids. Thinks babies are gross. Hates the way young children say “daddy daddy!” all excitedly.
- Looks upon his own newborn baby and says without any forethought, “how hideous.”
- Has no moral qualms about leaving his kids and his kids’ mama to the wolves.
- Makes sure his kids don’t see him and don’t talk to him a whole lot.
- Is never there for his kids. Missed every one of the kids’ milestones like walking, talking, writing, first missed tooth, first A grade and every school graduation. Doesn’t care that he missed them either.
That’s how a real cad would treat his kids. If you’re a “player” but would never agree to any of the above points, kudos to you. You may be a player, but you’re no cad. You can still be a decent dad.
Hi Susan, glad to be back … I’ll try and do your queries some rough justice:
1. What are the clues? How do we tell the difference?
I have some bias, since I was once an International Man of Mystery (really, call me 008 if you like), so I am good at reading people, but I think a solid way for a gal to “read” a guy on this is to ask him – NOT on a first date or even second, built some rapport first so he’s ready to open up a bit – in a casual way about his relations with women. Not primarily sexual, all of them, family too. See how he reacts, watch his eye movements. Obviously if he announces, “I don’t talk to my mom and sister cause they’re all whores!” – run, fast. But any squirellyness should be watched for, this should not be a tough question.
2. How did your wife tame you? What did she offer?
Timing matters, always. When I met my bride, a few months before I had come off a bad – ok, horrific – relationship with a smart and funny gal, pretty and great while unclothed, who was also really toxic. Some women who are crazy in bad are also … crazy: note to self. It was a nightmare, police involvement, restraining orders, etc. So I was walking wounded. DreamGirl got this and was really nice about it, she helped me get past it. Also, to be brutally honest, she looked a lot like PsychoGirl (I have a definite “type”) and had almost all of her good points and none of her awful ones. So a nice step forward, when I was ready for it – she made no, as in ZERO, attempt to rush me, it was all my schedule. She is wise and traditional (also, European, not American) and grew up in a somewhat patriarchal household – important. From my viewpoint, having lived abroad a lot, she was the vaunted “total package”. I want to note, she is pretty but not a “10″ – that’s important, why lie, but being attractive TO ME is all that really matters. The cock don’t lie, ever.
3. Assuming she had high SMV in keeping with yours, had she ridden the alpha cock carousel or kept her number low?
Her number was low compared to MINE – an important consideration. She was never a slut by most guys’ definition, but she had had a couple bad relationships, a few silly one night stands, etc. I’d call her a normal gal of the era, but also someone who never wanted to be overtly whorish. As an Alpha with a lot of notches, I didn’t pine for a virgin bride (it was offered in the past: no thanks) but neither did I want the town bike. The Mrs’ count is, I dunno, maybe 1/7 or 1/8 of mine? Ok by me. The past, as long as it’s the past is … the past.
4. How old were you when you decided to settle down and why?
Mid-30s, a good age for me, and a lot of men. Starting to get wise to the world at a deep, unconscious level. I knew she was The One — really, I knew it and, frankly, her willingness to be patient about my “issues” was what sealed the deal. Not gonna lie, the first months were tough, I was a wounded pain in the ass who also worked long hours and traveled all the time, but she put up with it. She made a “mistake” during that initial period, I made several – and she was totally honest about it, and therefore I was too (hardly my usual MO). The honesty was invaluable, and decisive.
5. What do you think about the finding that every previous partner reduces marital sexual satisfaction?
Maybe — to use my favorite phrase: “it depends.” I haven’t run around on my wife, I have no need to, she is very attentive to all my needs, including sexual. She is also very good in bed and keeps me happy; her kink matches my kink, if you will. Perhaps paradoxically, my ex-caddish ways keep me on the straight and narrow: having banged a lot of babes, I am under no illusion that the Perfect Woman is over the next hill, at the next bar, nor do I think that an encounter with the Perfect Vagina will solve all my life’s problems. Au contraire, madame. Also, my wife has always had a rule that I can fuck anyone I like, as long as I tell her about it, after, bring home no diseases nor unwanted heirs, and don’t fuck any gal more than thrice (which to her would be an “affair” and therefore verboten). Never strayed, not even once.
6. Do you feel that you crave variety less or more than a guy with a lower number (assuming you have a sense of this)?
I have needs, I’m a normal guy, so if the Mrs were bad in bed, or not wanting to please me, it would never work. But then again, I wouldn’t marry someone who didn’t meet those needs anyway, so the question has its limitations. If you’re a guy who’s had a lot of fun and exciting sex with a lot of women, please – please – don’t marry Miss Vanilla, you will stray, cause pain, wind up divorced, etc. Sexual compatibility isn’t the top issue, but if you’re a Former Playa like me, it certainly matters. The Mrs knows what I like, does that, and – how convenient! – it’s what gets her rocks off too. If you find that, and you have deeper compatibilities, you have found The One.
How’s that, Susan?
That’s my take on this too. A high partner count doesn’t make a man an alpha. The ability to draw women to him, not necessarily the consummation, implies alpha tendencies.
@WW (#19)
@Charm (#24)
Co-signed, 110%. I want to be able to admire, respect and devote myself to my husband. My hope is to find a man of exceptional character; that makes him titanium-strength alpha to me, even if the rest of the world disagrees.
As for the “religious alphas”: Personally, I would be really, really hurt to have saved myself for marriage, only to find out that I would be #31 for him. I would be wondering about possible diseases that he may not be manifesting. And any children that may show up out of the woodwork, years later.
Besides that, I would be asking a LOT of questions of his conversion and his devotion, while watching his actions. Because faith takes *practice*, devotion takes *effort* and they both require a TON of self-denial at times. Heck, I’m getting ready to give up the internet and soda pop for 40 days for Lent! (Susan & HUS, I will miss you guys heaps!
)
I question how someone can turn something like religious conviction on and off, like a switch. When it does happen (Saul on the Road to Damascus), the person seems to be all fire-and-brimstone-y afterwards. (E.g. One of my friend’s dads was a pastor who had been quite wild before his conversion. I have never seen a stricter denunciation of sins.)
He said that if it wasn’t late in life, then the religiosity would obviously be questionable.
It still is questionable, even late in life. This is called “having your cake and eating too”.
15-30 is not worrisome? I’m really disappointed in you here. That’s a large number at any age when the medians are around 3 (f) and 6 (m).
Yet more proof there’s zero reason for a man to ever turn down sex. Low numbers are what’s icky these days.
“Question for the married women- Do your partners know your count?”
My wife and every SO I’ve had knew/knows my number, and I know/knew theirs. Yes, I asked.
Are you saying that most his posters dont count oral sex partners? So, a woman can say that her number i
@ Sassy — roger that, sister!
@ Jackie — I hear you, but I think we’re using different theological verbiage here. I was never under the illusion that my being a Playa was “ok”; rather, I convinced myself, sorta, that all the good things I did *not* with my dick (and I did: like working PT on charitable works, feeding the homeless, etc) magically “made up” for my sinning in other areas. My priest-confessor didn’t buy that, but he was also compassionate; after a while he simply said, “I know what you’re doing on the weekends” – wise man, he won out in the end. Also, let’s be clear: every woman I bedded was an adult there, naked and legs splayed, of her own volition, and I never lied to any woman about my “intentions.” That’s not a justification, just a statement of fact. If women want to be treated like equals, that applies across the board.
Anacaona February 21, 2012 at 6:12 pm
Question for the married women- Do your partners know your count? Mine knows mine by default, but I have no idea about my husband’s.
He knows that I had only had sex with him, he doesn’t really want to know how many boyfriends or how many times I had been in love. I do know all his exes name’s who he loved the most, why they broke up and so on. he is is single digit with no ONS or FWB with makes him good in my eyes. I always though it was a good test to see how a man talks about the former women’s in their lives. I mean one or two bad experiences can happen to anyone but if all he has to say is that all her exes are crazy witches that abused the poor him…run to the opposite direction.
………………………………………..
I am a married women. My husband knows about every guy I dated, loved, had any kind of physicality with. He still thinks there are more I haven’t told him about. I have no idea why. I don’t believe he has ever given me a number, but we have talked about the many women he has had. It dawns on me now that I have never actually tried to count them up. But I do love hearing the stories-and he cannot understand why-because he doesn’t like to think of the guys I dated. The tales of his exploits fascinate me.
From what I have read today I would classify him as a religious Alpha- which makes him a great husband and a great dad. I am very very lucky to have found him.
@DBA
15 sexual intercourse partners by college graduation puts you in the top 2% of males. Sounds to me like you’re selling yourself short. There are a couple of interesting thoughts I have about this. Perhaps one or more of these is true?:
If you are beta by Vox’s definition, you do fine with women. Not all betas are in the sexual desert.
Lack of height in males is not as big a dealbreaker as people assume. I know how women answer surveys, but I’ve seen lots of short men do well with women. I never selected for height myself, and I dated lots of short men. I did marry a tall man, but I don’t think I fell for him for any reason having to do with height.
There are lots of fields that pay poorly and still appeal to women. Anything creative or related to design fits into this category. All the performing arts.
@The CronoLink
Interesting discussion on the way! Give us your definition of alpha, please.
@FormerPlaya (#32)
Hi FP,
Thanks for replying to me; I really do appreciate it.
And it’s good to know that you weren’t deluding yourself, I think that is great! (BTW, I think many many many people have done similarly. For some interesting reading, check out “indulgences” of the medieval era. That’s how they got a lot of fancy churches built
)
Your priest sounds really cool. My mentor is a nun, and even if I start to delude myself on the smallest things, she will call me on it. She won in the end, too!
If you feel comfortable sharing, how did you find this person?
Kindest regards, FP–
PS: Why do you choose the handle “FormerPlaya”? To me, it looks like being a player, even a former one, is still defining how you view yourself. Thanks for considering my questions!
@Susan…Awesome!! Thanks so much for adding me, wow!
Yeah, it is totally hamster of me, but I feel if his numbers were in the 2-5 range he’d remember them a lot more and they would be much more meaningful- for example I only have one other point of reference. But honestly, I’d be lying if I told you I had any idea…we met young.
I just like to think of them as a string of hazy inferior conquests which he can’t care to remember t0o well : D
And yeah, part of me likes that he has high SMV. Thank god he’s an introvert who doesn’t enjoy the natter of women.
Flavia´s last [type] ..Glee: The Pinnacle of Cultural Marxism- Part One
@Jackie
Character is the MOST important thing. That comes first on any list.
I do however think that people get exactly what they deserve. A man thats banged dozens of women will end up with a woman who is okay with that. It says something about her and him. Just like men who use dark game–you get what you deserve.
I’ve read on many a game blog about how men like women who are sexually selective, so if I’m sexually selective, why would I have sex with a man who wasn’t? I think this is where pre-selection comes in, but I’m kind of meh about that. To me, the only way that preselection works is if the woman cares whether or not other women approve or are attracted to her mate. I could care less. Other peoples opinions don’t dictate my behavior.
I’m not gonna hate on other people though. Let them choose what they choose, but I know where I stand, and I’m not budging. I feel like partner count is one of those things I don’t really want to know, but would have to know because otherwise I know I’d be disappointed when I found out. I have a problem with projecting a positive image onto things that are ambiguous or left unsaid.
People keep trying to play the “it shouldn’t matter” game, but I call B.S. Maybe it shouldn’t matter, but it does. It just does. This is why we keep talking about it. Things that don’t matter don’t keep getting talked about.
@Susan. I also want to add that I totally pedestalize my husband, so I can’t imagine any woman coming across him and not wanting to F him. So maybe I am thinking his numbers are higher. He’s a conservative introvert.
How about you? Did you care? Do you know?
Flavia´s last [type] ..Glee: The Pinnacle of Cultural Marxism- Part One
@Susan:
I find myself interested in reading more about the methodology and findings associated with the 5.3%/partner statistic cited in your second enumerated thought in the original post.
If you have the citation close at hand I would be much obliged. If it is not, perhaps you could clear something up for me: If the probability of being “extremely sexually satisfied” were P for a man with N partners, does this mean the probability of being extremely sexually satisfied with N+1 partners is 0.947P?
I merely wish to ensure I properly understand the figure before commenting.
Jackie: Hey, nice feedback, cool. I chose the FP handle because if the site has “Hooking Up” in the title, I need to establish my bona fides, right?
My cousin, one of my cloest friends too, is a priest, so I know a lot of clergy; my confessor was my cousin’s confessor … keep it in the family, just like the mafia.
@ Susan (Note: I am making up for my absence by overposting; you kinda asked for it, IMHO lol ):
“Lack of height in males is not as big a dealbreaker as people assume.”
So very true. It’s all in the head. Up front: I am six feet and look Nordic, as in just stepped off a Viking longship and I’m gonna burn your medieval village down.
But my BFF, since age 10, is a nice looking but slightly nebbishy Jewish guy who’s about 5-6. And, honestly, he had a complex about this since we were teenagers. There were near-teary convos about this in a way straight guys seldom do; we even might have hugged – shhhhh!
And guess what? After – I dunno, 20 years of my telling him to get over it, it’s just not that big a deal, really – he’s married to a lovely, much younger blonde – a model, really – who’s about 5-10 without shoes. She could care less. He’s kind, funny, and he keeps her on the sweet-yet-short leash she’s always wanted.
All it took was his waking up to the fact that his obsession wasn’t everyone else’s.
@Charm (#38)
“People keep trying to play the “it shouldn’t matter” game, but I call B.S. Maybe it shouldn’t matter, but it does. It just does. This is why we keep talking about it. Things that don’t matter don’t keep getting talked about.”
ITA (I Totally Agree) It’s like people are being sold snake-oil with sex-positivity: “Numbers don’t matter!” And if you have beliefs to the contrary, somehow *you* are in the wrong.
For me, any possible partner represents:
A) chance at pregnancy
B) bonding experience that will make it nearly impossible for me to leave
C) possible chance of disease
When I read about guys having sex with dozens of women, I wonder if any of the above concern them. I have known women get pregnant on the pill, condoms, IUDs, *and* doubling up on some methods. (One of them kept the baby; she and the father got engaged. The baby is now in kindergarten and everything is still up in the air, waiting for “someday.”)
You are right, Charm: Numbers do matter. I don’t think we should be throwing stones at people. But instead, *talking* about this, articulating concerns and figuring it out. Before the high numbers start, y’know?
@WW
Good Lord, no I don’t mean my spouse. Here’s a tidbit for you: My husband and I have never once discussed our respective numbers. I think we both have a general sense of what life was like before we met, and we both saw each other have some casual flings in school before we got together. We have discussed relationships, exes, etc. but never the number of sexual partners.
As for what “the number” means, it is usually just P in V. That’s what girls talk about IRL. In fact, I’ve known girls to look up old hookups and get together for sex, because it’s a “freebie.” I’ll agree it’s not particularly accurate, but women are going to go with the count that’s lowest, and that’s P in V. There are exceptions – not just Vox but several academic studies have defined sex partners as people with whom you have engaged in vaginal, anal or oral sex.
@J
I’ve told this story before, but I think a lot of current commenters haven’t heard it. When my husband set off for b-school, where we met, he had been dating someone for several months. They decided not to stay together when he left, and one factor was her confusion about her sexuality. Of course, he was somewhat haunted by this – kind of like George Constanza turning Susan into a lesbian on Seinfeld. I always found it a bit threatening as well – the smart, independent woman who is so sexual she wants everybody.
We moved up to Cambridge, MA, where my husband had lived before, when I was about 4 months pregnant. I was at that stage where my jeans were getting small but I hadn’t bought maternity clothes. So we’re at the hardware store, buying cleaning supplies for the condo we’ve just moved into. My jeans waistband is undone, and my belly sticks out a bit. I am also grubby – no makeup, hoodie sweatshirt. As we walk out of the hardware store, I am carrying a bucket full of supplies in one hand and a mop in the other. When boom, we bump into the mysterious Nina. It’s 10 on a Saturday morning and she’s standing there with her eyeliner and her vintage bomber jacket. My husband is introducing me, and I just want to crawl away.
I did have a second chance, though. Years later, when our kids were 5 and 3, we bumped into her at a restaurant on Martha’s Vineyard. I felt that I looked my best, and my children were adorable. She looked haggard – clearly on her way to being a “onelie.”
Exes can be quite threatening.
Charm and WW are interesting, in that they are clearly in that group of women who will indeed reject a manslut. Personally, I don’t think low double digits qualifies, but I respect their right to judge that.
@Hope
That’s a good distinction. I don’t think that cad is the opposite of dad, though. More like the guy who wouldn’t make a good dad. Researchers coined the cad vs. dad term, no doubt because it’s catchy, and close enough for government work.
FWIW: I have never been rejected on being a “manslut” though I am/was in the high double digits. And I have intentionally avoided obvious ho’s, not my shizzle. In fact there is nothing hotter than the good (or good-ish) girl who will go bad for moi. I was deflowering virgins into my 30s, not by design. Something odd here ….
@Former Playa
That’s awesome! Great qualitative info there, thanks very much. Might have to turn that into a post. It sounds like your wife is an incredibly patient woman, and she held out for what she wanted – you. Good for you both. Flipping a player is not for the faint of heart.
@Jackie
Thanks for making one last appearance before Ash Wednesday!
Me too, I’ll be counting down the days.
I can certainly understand your feelings about your future husband having been with 30 women before. It’s pretty clear that there is no absolute – there appears to be a ratio: Female sexual partners/Male sexual partners – that matters to both men and women.
@OffTheCuff
I knew some would feel that way. Don’t forget, I got to double digits, and I’m sure my husband did as well. It’s all relative. Actually, 15-30 might be worth worrying about – it depends on the person, I guess. Certainly that survey implied that it would be a serious problem in terms of marital satisfaction.
You’re a case in point – as I recall, you’ve said that you and Mrs. Cuff got together early on, and you clearly have an amazing sex life, so….I’d say you both chose well.
@Former Playa
And that’s why you’re not a Former Cad.
@Flavia
I’m so glad I asked I totally misunderstood your meaning. I thought you were suggesting that if he hadn’t been with a lot of women, you would find him less attractive for not having had some casual sex. But you’re saying the opposite. That is very interesting – I have not heard this expressed before.
@Susan
I don’t want to come off as judgemental. I might be able to overlook a high partner count, as long he committed to monogamy and I felt he was the man for me. Since I haven’t been in this situation, I don’t know exactly what I would do.
To be honest, I think I can finally understand why men have an instinctive knee-jerk reaction when a woman is vividly discussing the details of her sex history.
I remember also being taken aback by a female friend, who’s number was 50+. I criticized myself to be more open-minded, but it was such a natural reaction. This is someone who appears to not be able to bond with someone.
@Flavia
Early on, I felt very threatened by my husband’s experiences, particularly those I knew about at school. Over time, as I grew more confident in our relationship, I was able to let it go. I don’t know his number – and I’m not sure he does either to be honest. I had to sit down and come up with mine after I started blogging. A generation ago we did not keep track. I never even heard the number discussed before starting HUS. I believe it’s a natural consequence in an era of casual sex.
Let me state this…..I would definitely prefer to be with someone with a lower partner count than 30.
@Susan, wow what a story. Yeah being in the “awkward” phase of feeling frumpy but not yet really showing yet would be a bad time to meet a vivacious overly sexual ex for the first time!
@JQ
Here’s the post I wrote on the subject:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/06/28/hookinguprealities/manwhores-for-casual-sex-only/
Unfortunately, when I clicked on the link I got a 404. I’m not sure whether that survey may be found elsewhere or not.
@Jackie
Absolutely! The female risks more in every way from a single sexual encounter.
@WW (#54)
“To be honest, I think I can finally understand why men have an instinctive knee-jerk reaction when a woman is vividly discussing the details of her sex history.”
Me, too! *lightbulb clicks on*
Do you remember that earlier thread where we were talking about the porn-star-turned-Christian? Maybe it was you, Olive, Jesus M? I remember mentioning my friend, who had been a stripper. (Her # was so high, she didn’t even know what it was.)
Anyway, Jesus M (I think) would agree that we should definitely show compassion and mercy, with the caveat they they were not good relationship prospects. I remember thinking at the time, Why add that caveat?
But now? I understand SO much more. Maybe it makes me a bad person, but I just don’t think I could ever consider a man whose number was so high he didn’t know what it was.
@Susan (#50)
Aww, thanks so much!
BTW, would you believe I am *still* recovering from that stupid illness? My dad made me go to UrgentCare last night– thinking it might be pneumonia.
Fortunately, it’s not and I’m finally healed enough to start eating solid food and getting stuff done. Right now, I am drinking Dr. Pepper like a boss and enjoying the last part of being online. 
I found a sweet little movie, similar to N&S, called “Nicholas Nickleby” from 2003 that is on Netflix Instant. You might like it!
BTW, I left this on the Cherry Tree thread, but major kudos on getting mentioned in Essence magazine! It does not surprise me in the least that you & HUS continue to garner national attention. If I were you, I would start watching the author segments on the morning chat shows (GMA, etc) for what they are wearing, the questions they get, etc.
You are poised to become the 21st Century Marmee of the Internet, I think!
@Susan “a generation ago we did not keep track.”
This is pretty interesting. I think my mother-in-law is the same way. I’ve also heard that my father-in-law sowed a lot of wild oats back in the day.
@Flavia, yep I pedestalize my husband, too. He is the ultimate alpha to me, and I say stuff to him like, “I bet girls throw themselves at you,” to which he says, “quit smoking crack.”
I’m also glad his past number partner count is low, even counting oral. I vastly prefer that to a high count.
One comment about numbers.related to a few comments already. You’ve got to quality adjust them. There is a world of difference between a guy who has been with say 10-15 8-9s and a a guy who has hit 40 by making a habit of pulling trailer park 4s on a regular basis.
When I was bouncing I saw a few bottom feeders who probably racked up big numbers by really scraping the bottom of the barrel.
FormerPlaya at comment 26, very interesting at answer #5 (reading on phone so I can’t quote text). This very topic has been a contentious argument on a variety of threads. I think your “arrangement” with your wife is far more common than some of the commenters and our host think. Still a small minority thing, but the fact is many women will in fact “share” a very high value guy with certain restrictions.
WarmWoman February 21, 2012 at 9:04 pm
@Susan
I don’t want to come off as judgemental. I might be able to overlook a high partner count, as long he committed to monogamy and I felt he was the man for me. Since I haven’t been in this situation, I don’t know exactly what I would do.
To be honest, I think I can finally understand why men have an instinctive knee-jerk reaction when a woman is vividly discussing the details of her sex history.
………………………………
I don’t understand this- can you elaborate?
This is jen,
I’m not sure what part you don’t understand? The part where I think I understand how men feel or me overlooking a high partner count of 30?
FormerPlaya at comment 26, very interesting at answer #5 (reading on phone so I
can’t quote text). This very topic has been a contentious argument on a variety
of threads. I think your “arrangement” with your wife is far more common than
some of the commenters and our host think. Still a small minority thing, but the
fact is many women will in fact “share” a very high value guy with certain
restrictions.
…………………………..
When I first met my husband he was involved with someone else, and my first instinct was to dismiss him. Obviously, I didn’t. Honestly, I am not sure what made me continue to see him. The thrill of the competition? I evenutally won him, after all.
65 WarmWoman February 21, 2012 at 9:39 pm
This is jen,
I’m not sure what part you don’t understand? The part where I think I understand how men feel or me overlooking a high partner count of 30?
…………………….
The understandinghow men feel. someone else agreed with you-sory can’t remember who- and I am wondering why I don’t “get” this too.
A) chance at pregnancy
B) bonding experience that will make it nearly impossible for me to leave
C) possible chance of disease
I will add D) Chances that I am a casual encounter and he is just lying/pretending for the sake of getting in my pants. And yes in my country many players are patient enough to deflower a virgin for as long as it takes just to discard her once they are done with her.A man that has his sexual needs fulfilled somewhere can afford playing you longer that a man with less options.
And E) Chances of developing a taste for the nasty things out of life and unable to get sexually fulfilled ever. Again I had friends that became anal lovers after one of their women introduced them and after that any woman that doesn’t comply with that were quickly discarded and this are the same guys that later went for nastiest stuff like threesomes. Ozy disagrees with me and she thinks people are born with certain kinks but in my experience the more sexual experience the more resistant to love making and inclination to bring the butter and the electric appliances to be just to finally orgasm…maybe.
Exes can be quite threatening.
My husband last ex used to be a facebook celebrity and she usually tried to show how wonderful her life was and was a bit sniding out of me when he could or my friends even, of course taking the best pictures she could. But then I met her she is 15 years older than me, a whole foot shorter and I meet her in person during my second wedding here after that she is not longer in my facebook contacts. I can sleep at night better after that.
Anacaona´s last [type] ..My Queen Bee friend.
@Jackie
I hope you feel better, and you’re leaving HUS? I keep saying I will stop, but I don’t lol.
We do learn new things about ourselves, don’t we? I would have also said that one’s past doesn’t matter, but it looks like I would react to some cases.
I would agree with Susan that low double-digits wouldn’t be a deal-breaker for me, especially if it was over a long period. Let’s say a 30 year old man had 10 partners over the span of 10 years.
Sue: “You’re a case in point – as I recall, you’ve said that you and Mrs. Cuff got together early on, and you clearly have an amazing sex life, so….I’d say you both chose well.”
I’m a very bad example. I succeeded, only barely, despite my beta programming, not because of it.
“To be honest, I think I can finally understand why men have an instinctive knee-jerk reaction when a woman is vividly discussing the details of her sex history.
………………………………
I don’t understand this- can you elaborate? ”
I’ll answer from the male perspective. It says one of a few things. None of them good from a relationship perspective, a couple might signal she’s desiring a one night stand.
1. That said woman is still attached the the man who’s sex acts she’s describing
2. She can’t form any attachments at all anymore to people she’s had sex with and is nonchalant about it because she doesn’t see a reason why she SHOULDN’T tell you
3. She’s playing games to make you jealous
4. For some reason she thinks this may be flirting with you.
There could be more reasons, but those are the four that I’ve personally experienced. All will disqualify a woman for a relationship, at least for me. I did hook up once with someone that used the fourth, but it was definitely a ONS and we each knew that going in. It was pretty much her handing me what she wanted to do with me.
I later found out that I was the first of three men for that same woman that week. Talk about issues.
Leap of a Beta´s last [type] ..Grasping the Situation
VD: said: ” No, that’s not it. It’s merely an important indicator. This should be obvious, since we’re discussing a socio-sexual hierarchy and therefore mere sexual history cannot be the sole determining factor. Perhaps you’re slumming.”
No way was I slumming. I had dateda cheerleader in high school and felt I had to maintain that “standard.” Nowadays my big regret is passing up some really fantastic women because my “looks” standards were so high. For example, I blew off a pre-med undergrad who I just found sort of “eh,” but went for the empty-headed part-time model who asked me out one day, approps of nothing.
Since we now have Facebook, guess who is the better looking of these two women now?
To clarify, by that I mean the actual description of details. Just casually mentioning a partner count or trying to avoid it signals other things entirely – again, what it signals depends on the situation
Leap of a Beta´s last [type] ..Grasping the Situation
This is Jen,
I’m not a man, but this is what I’ve heard and been told:
Men don’t like to picture some sweaty man getting on top of their significant other, or having images of their significant other blowing a number of guys. When a woman says “I’ve slept with 50 guys”, the image that pops up might produce an “eww” reaction. Guys, feel free to disagree with me.
That’s how I felt when I read about a man sleeping with 30 women. I got an immediate image of a man being in all of these..um…vaginas (sorry for the crudeness). It would be weird making love to him knowing that he’s been in and sucked by that many women.
I remember my biology teacher in highschool saying “Once you sleep with someone, you’re kind of sleeping with everyone else they’ve done it with.”
I’ll answer from the male perspective. It says one of a few things. None of them good from a relationship perspective, a couple might signal she’s desiring a one night stand.
………………………….
Hang on a sec, I thought we were talking about discussing our past within the context of now being married? Did I miss a few posts?
@WW (#69)
Hey again, WW!
Tomorrow is Ash Wednesday, which is the beginning of Lent. For the 40 days and 40 nights that Lent occurs, until Easter, we are encouraged to “give something up” or “take something on” in order to bring us closer to God. It’s supposed to be a journey we make together, as we think about the Easter story and what God means to us.
For me (and Bellita, and maybe a couple others as well), I am giving up the internet except things related to business (email, etc) and my beloved soda pop.
I am definitely going miss HUS and all the awesome commenters, youtube, Skype and other stuff! I will be back here after Easter, hopefully with a sense of renewal in body and spirit!
This is jen hit send too soon
I meant as opposed to talking about with with someone you didn’t know very well, or were making a LTR judgement about.
“This is jen hit send too soon
I meant as opposed to talking about with with someone you didn’t know very well, or were making a LTR judgement about.”
I figured you were talking about the reaction a man has to a woman describing her sexual past in details in general – not specifically in a marriage or LTR situation.
While I haven’t had that happen, my gut instinct is that my reaction would be the same for each of those situations. I can see NO POSITIVE reasons for a woman to describe a detailed past sex life in a relationship. A simple ‘what if we try this’ would suffice if she wants some variety in the bedroom and she knows she likes it. Describing it as someone else did it would only be a turn off, make me angry, and have me question why I’m with this woman. Again, for those same reasons as above
Leap of a Beta´s last [type] ..Grasping the Situation
WarmWoman,
50 guys is nuts. You can’t rack up 50 guys without having issues. And the same is probably true of men. I don’t think you can bed 50 lovers without having “problems” that would make you unfit for a relationship.
Not that people can’t work past their issues, but it’s a red flag. And yea, the reaction is definitely “eww.” Though I don’t know if it’s something rooted in DNA or not, since some men and women don’t seem to have a problem with having relationships with people with high partner counts.
WarmWoman February 21, 2012 at 9:53 pm
This is Jen,
I’m not a man, but this is what I’ve heard and been told:
Men don’t like to picture some sweaty man getting on top of their significant other, or having images of their significant other blowing a number of guys. When a woman says “I’ve slept with 50 guys”, the image that pops up might produce an “eww” reaction. Guys, feel free to disagree with me.
……………………..
So, then would a guy not want to hear details if it were just a few? Men don’t want to picture it? Am I in the minority of wanting to picture what my husband had done before we married? (ut oh)
Sue,
Is that Mr. HUS with the daughter in the picture accompanying the post?
Thank you for clarifying, Leap.
That’s interesting. IDK. I can’t speak from a woman’s perspective… If my girlfriend started telling me what she’d done with other guys, I’d be annoyed and turned off. And if it was something slutty, then the damage might be permanent.
That’s interesting. IDK. I can’t speak from a woman’s perspective… If my girlfriend started telling me what she’d done with other guys, I’d be annoyed and turned off. And if it was something slutty, then the damage might be permanent.
…………………………..
THanks for weighing in, JM
@Bella Cullen/Ana (#68)
Reason (D) is awful! I am so sorry to hear this.
It reminds me of the story of Fantine from _Les Miserables_.
Unfortunately, I have had someone similar try this with me. (And this person was even worse because when I told him NO, he held my arms down.) I said to him, There are TONS of women in the town who would be glad to sleep with you, NSA *no strings attached*. You have more than enough to pick from, PLEASE leave me alone.
(It was a horrible housemate situation, in my case.)
PS: Wasn’t sure if you saw this on the other thread, but congratulations on such happy news! Renesmee?
Sigh. Now I have to go out and bang ten more girls before I’m a top-tier catch? Don’t get me wrong, sex is awesome, but pulling a new girl is a pain in the ass, especially if I refuse to cheat, and I don’t even want a high partner count in the first place. Have a hard enough time reconciling my faith with premarital sex as it is.
Don’t get me wrong, it makes sense. Most women who object and say they’d prefer a man with a similarly low count are lying to themselves and would readily rationalize a 20+ guy if he presented it the right way, like in the original post. I totally understand where they’re coming from. Normally I like attaching hard numbers to concepts, too.
Bottomline: the man who makes you tingle is the man your womb needs.
Oh boy so brains are meaningless now? Oh boy Feminism first institutionalized cattiness now legitimatize stupidity. Just when you think things wouldn’t get any worse.
Am I in the minority of wanting to picture what my husband had done before we married? (ut oh)
I think you are. I enjoyed hearing him talk but I do remember one day he told me a detail that grossed me out and I told him I had enough, is different I don’t even like to read explicit sex scenes in my romance let alone imagining my husband in it.
Anacaona´s last [type] ..My Queen Bee friend.
Odds,
A high value man can pull more women. The highest value man doesn’t need to. He does what he wants and doesn’t let anybody else define him. He can sleep with 100 women or just 1. He lives by his own rules.
No worries.
@Odds
Hi Odds,
I wouldn’t sweat one survey on the internet– you sound like you have many awesome qualities, as is!
The details of what happened in the bedroom? There is no point. But the gist of where you’ve been over the course of your life… I’d say that’s relevant.
Susan,
I’ve been following this thread at Vox’s, and find it fascinating. I’m pretty stoked on my own situation, and without revealing too much about myself, let’s just say that the data in Vox’s thread and yours puts me in a very sweet spot. I was optimistic before, but this definitely tells me I’ve been making good choices and thus heading in a good direction.
Re: women being repelled by manwhores: it’s genetic, biological adaptation–women can *smell* a man with an STI:
http://www.naturalnews.com/034946_STD_infections_smell.html
Not unsurprisingly, on the other side of the coin, men can tell a woman who’s ovulating by scent and by voice:
(3rd abstract from the top.. other good ones in there too)
http://www.bakadesuyo.com/how-much-of-our-sexuality-is-in-our-voices
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/men-can-detect-when-women-are-ovulating/article1440287/
Cheers..
This is why I’ve always said (and tried to explain to PUAs) that when you choose to go the route of the cad, you are closing the doors to the higher quality women you may one day want to marry. In turn, this creates a positive feedback loop where cads/PUAs complain that the old-fashioned wifey-type, moral women don’t exist thus fueling their bitter feelings about women’s personhood (how many times have I heard a self-taught alpha claim that women don’t have souls).
@LeapofBeta-I also was referring to discussing partner counts in an LTR when both partners love and trust each other enough to pop the question. I think casually mentioning your partner count on a date or with friends would be sloppy manners.
@Thisisjen-
I don’t think you would be alone. I know some women that get turned on by the thought of their man doing another woman. Look at the people that date married men, and don’t seem to care that he’s sleeping with another woman at the same time.
Odds February 21, 2012 at 10:11 pm
Don’t get me wrong, it makes sense. Most women who object and say they’d prefer a man with a similarly low count are lying to themselves and would readily rationalize a 20+ guy if he presented it the right way, like in the original post. I totally understand where they’re coming from. Normally I like attaching hard numbers to concepts, too.
……………………………….
This is a good point. I agree with you here.
FTR My first husband and I were both virgins. My second was quite the opposite-he had a pretty high number.
“So, then would a guy not want to hear details if it were just a few? Men don’t want to picture it? Am I in the minority of wanting to picture what my husband had done before we married? (ut oh)”
While the picturing it is part of it, another part is just what it signals for her in terms of her past bonding and present issues with creating new ones. Even if it was just a few men she slept with, if she’s describing it in detail I would guess she is either still bonded to the past guys or unable to bond with people she’s had sex with at all.
I -DO- want to know what the past partner count was, because that says something as well. And the way she says it implies a lot too. If she tries to hide it and is ashamed of it I’d guess there’s bad choices in there if its middle to high or she’s ashamed of having a low one. If she’s proud of it and has middle to high count I’d watch out for her being a sex pos feminist. Really the target is a low count without feeling ashamed of it and not being hung up on any of them (IE: I don’t want to hear about how one of your ex’s did anything in the bedroom).
Instead, tell me how much you LOVE what I’m doing. Or guide me in a subtle way of ‘lets try this out.’ The goal is that I should feel like I’m doing the leading. Hell, hopefully she’d feel like that too. But that’s how I’m wired as a man, I want to lead and will look for women that want that too.
The only time I’d ever consider it appropriate to compare me to an ex is outside of the bedroom in a positive light. Don’t even compare me to an ex inside the bedroom in a positive way. The closest you should get is “Oh, I’ve never had sex that good before” type compliments. No names, no explicit mentioning of another person. Again, it leads me to think she’s bonded to someone else still more than anything if she was still thinking about him instead of me during sex.
Leap of a Beta´s last [type] ..Grasping the Situation
@ WW
“I also was referring to discussing partner counts in an LTR when both partners love and trust each other enough to pop the question. I think casually mentioning your partner count on a date or with friends would be sloppy manners.”
I run in a theatre scene. We have completely different social standards and its not unheard of or out of the question to discuss these things openly. Part of the red pill was the issue of me realizing all the women I associate with are horrible relationship material for this and other reasons (IE feminist ideals).
@ This is Jen
I think its a major difference in women and men. Pre-selection in women vs wanting to be special to a woman for a man.
Leap of a Beta´s last [type] ..Grasping the Situation
93 Jesus Mahoney February 21, 2012 at 10:17 pm
What exactly is the point of discussing your previous relationships, sexual or otherwise, with your spouse?
The details of what happened in the bedroom? There is no point. But the gist of where you’ve been over the course of your life… I’d say that’s relevant.
…………………………….
hm, I didn’t mean, like, describing it pornographically- but just talking about how far things went with whom and why- that sort of thing. I didn’t mean bragging about it or anything-
this is jen,
Yea. This is a difficult one for me. I haven’t actually asked my current girlfriend. I get the feeling that her number isn’t all that high.
Then, I didn’t suspect my ex-fiancee of having a high number either. I was a lot more naive then, I think. But when I found out, it ended the relationship.
I have mixed feelings about wanting to know.
Trisha, what are you smoking? Not a single woman has said that she requires a low number man. The strongest language was “I prefer it to be under 30″ and “I could look past it if he commits” which is pretty weak. Every one else thinks high counts are just fine. Your argument makes no sense.
@LeapofaBeta
That’s interesting. Come to think of it, my friend in finance says there’s a group of people that are also open about that.
Online forums are diferent, because we’re all anonymous. The stuff I say on here isn’t stuff you would be hearing me talk about in public, unless it’s with close and trusted friends.
“Read it. There’s a hamsterization for her theory.”
Fixed it for you.
Anacaona´s last [type] ..My Queen Bee friend.
Gina,
Where you’ve been can tell someone a lot about where you’ll be going. I personally wouldn’t want to be married to a formerly promiscuous woman. Not that I think they’re bad people or anything.
“What exactly is the point of discussing your previous relationships, sexual or otherwise, with your spouse?”
When I first joined HUS, I recall a couple of male posters in the Roosh’s advice saying that men had a right to know how many men their woman have been with. Male friends in my real life say “I don’t want to know”, because there’s no positive purpose. Even if a man says he doesn’t care, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an underlying wound to the ego.
@Jackie-I can’t believe that man would pin you down like that. Glad you got out and safe. I was thinking earlier today at work about how some sick people get off on pressuring others.
@OTC (#103)
Hi OTC,
Did you read Charm’s post (#38)? Or my own? I realize in this world and SMP, that high numbers are common. But, for my own self, my hope is to be with someone whose values are close to my own. I would be thrilled to be with a man who was also waiting!
I wouldn’t care if things weren’t perfect at first– so what? (It’s not like I would have anyone to compare him to.) We would have the rest of our lives together.
Until then, I am working on being the best person I can be, and hoping that he is doing the same. It’s easy to get daunted or dismayed, but I often reflect on the words of my mother, “Whatever you focus on, you will get more of.” Keep focusing on the good character and see what happens
@Jesus Mahoney,
I’m sorry if this comes off as too intrusive, but what if someone thought that your past summer flings were an indication of your future? I’m just curious.
@WW (#108)
Thanks for your kind support, WarmWoman. As for that jerk– part of me wishes I hadn’t even mentioned it. I told my mentor and my sister after it happened, then got out of there ASAP.
I try not to dwell on people like that or give them “rent free space in my brain.” There are always going to be jerks, you know? I *refuse* to let them steal my joy.
That’s mature. Though you’re right: it should be talked about ahead of time.
WarmWoman,
Well, if it were someone I cared about (like my girlfriend), I would be very hurt and saddened, of course.
@OffTheCuff
I am making this conclusion from this:
“For every premarital sexual partner, a man’s likelihood of being extremely sexually satisfied in marriage falls 5.3%. This means that a man with a number of 10 before marriage is 53% less likely to be describe himself as extremely satisfied in marriage. By implication, all men with 20 previous partners will feel moderately sexually satisfied in marriage at best.”
Also, you are incorrect that that was the strongest criticism against high partner counts in men here. Both Charm and WW have a similar belief as I do.
Actually, I feel lucky reading these comments because my partner count is higher than my bf (of 4 years) and I still view him as very alpha. He also asks me explicit details of my past bfs just because he’s curious and I don’t see it bothering him at all. I honestly think it’s silly that commenters like Leap of Beta get so insecure at a woman talking about her past deeds. Guess that’s what happens when you’re… beta.
I agree that it’s not the partner count that makes a man alpha, but his ability to attract women, which mine definitely does.
My current best guess is that high number guys should be with high number girls and low number guys should be with low number girls. For long term relationships where commitment changes hands. But this whole notion depends on having a meaningful grasp of the nature of the others count. I mean, if she has sexed up a string of guys who were just like you but for their own reasons they would not commit you may have a good wife on your hands. If she has sexed up a long string of bar bounchers and tatooed, doomed, Byronic folk singers and you are just now finishing your JD and never got into the party scene I would say to disappear her with all predujice if she ever mutters the M word in your presence.
If you think she has grown tired of exotic men and wants to commit her life foreverafter to fucking a nice, boring, bread-winner guy you are too stupid to live and deserve the hell that awaits you.
Also, hi Susan. My name is Trish and I’m a new commenter here, although I’ve been lurking your blog for months. I came over from Heartiste and I really like how you have a much more understanding, realistic and non-bitter perspective on the SMP.
@ Susan
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/ETD/id/157
worked for me with a little creative use of Google Scholar. I wonder if you had found an article version of what appears to be a Master’s Thesis.
Jackie
“I try not to dwell on people like that or give them “rent free space in my brain.” There are always going to be jerks, you know? I *refuse* to let them steal my joy”
Good words of wisdom. I will be at work, and random bad experiences pop up in my head out of nowhere.
It seems like I might be one of the few female commenters that has mentioned similar issues that you posted with the jerk that pinned you down. In the SMP, it shouldn’t be ignored. The feeling of being sexually pressured and shutting down is very real. You would think that most women know how to fight back or tell a man to back off, but freezing isn’t uncommon either.
I’m unable to copy and paste from her blog but her theory is that the man who makes women tingle, NOT the “safe man”, is the man who women are meant to select for. The problem lies only in that women are unable to create “harmony” with them like they are with “safe men”. So then she holds workshops to teach women how to do that.
Harmony for two to three years untill it is on to the next. Her vision is never ending rotation of partners were all women choose only the unsafe men and discard the safe ones. Which means 60% or more of men will never be chosen at all and women will have to share the unsafe men they are suposed to have harmony with with a lot of other women. Then as we know they will eventually not get chosen anymore after forty and end miserable. And how exactly are mentally healthy children suposed to be raised when everyone changes partners all the time and shares partners and whatnot. Especially when the men rotating arround are all the cads and not the dads since it is the dads that are the best fathers but they will be out of the picture in this womans model.
Gina,
Most guys don’t want to marry women who have been overly promiscuous. Or at least most guys that I know….
And how exactly are mentally healthy children suposed to be raised when everyone changes partners all the time and shares partners and whatnot.
Good thing that cats don’t need a lot of stability to do well in life
.
Mmm is it me or Gina sounds like Poly Desi?
Ana,
Whoever she is, she’s a troll. Oh, and congrats on the 2nd draft of the novel. You’re growing 2 babies at once, it seems.
“Its important for both partners to get tested for STDs. Beyond that, I don’t see much use in knowing. Either you love someone or you don’t.”
Well, since a woman with 200+ partners is statistically extremely unlikely to stay faithfull it can be handy to know. Aslo if the woman is about a 5 and you are about a 5 and she has tons and tons of 7s,8s,9s then maybe, just maybe, she ain`t all that into you even if she says she is.
Ana, yup. My first thought. Too obvious.
@WW
“I will be at work, and random bad experiences pop up in my head out of nowhere.”
This might sound really stupid, but when those thoughts pop up, I will literally say, “Stop” out loud. And if I’m working on my [profession], I keep a notebook by me and write it down, telling myself that I can always think about it later.
Lastly, these thoughts went WAY down for me when I started journalling and getting a lot of stuff out. Have you ever read _The Artists Way_ by Julia Cameron (I think that’s the author)? You might like it.
As to the other stuff: I know I’m not physically strong enough to fight a guy and prevail. I try to be as safe as I can, have an escort whenever possible and stay in public places. I wish it was a safer world.
Kindest regards–
Not sure about that. Most women here say that topic is off the table until it gets serious.
Wasn’t polydesi supposedly feminist ex? Even though others found her annoying, I must admit I found her kind of amusing.
“Most guys don’t want to marry women who have been overly promiscuous. Or at least most guys that I know….”
The term promiscuous seems to vary in social circles. What are your friends’ definitions?
I’ve met people that have felt pre-marital sex is promiscuous. Some say that any woman willing to get involved in NSA is promiscuous. Others would say my friend with 50+ guys is classic promiscuous.
Whoever she is, she’s a troll. Oh, and congrats on the 2nd draft of the novel. You’re growing 2 babies at once, it seems.
Thanks! I’m actually very motivated to start querying before the baby is due. In my country we say that babies are born with the bread under their arms so hopefully it will bring me good luck to sell it. I totally recommend you nanowrimo if you ever have issues with writing, it had helped me a lot to actually write and stop self editing me so much that I take forever to finish a novel, the second draft of the first novel of the trilogy is 80,000 words and the first draft of the second novel is already 54,000 words I plan to start the third next month. Nanowrimo rules!
@Anacaona
Speaking of cats…
Presented for your enjoyment, Catsterpiece Classics: Downton Tabby (also feat. “Hiss of the D’Urbervilles” and “Pawliver Twist”):
http://youtu.be/clJK3KBqdlE
WarmWoman,
Most guys I know would fall somewhere in between saying, “any NSA sex is promiscuous,” to saying, “more than 5-6 NSA partners…” At least the ones I know of….
@Jackie
No, it’s not stupid. Thought-stopping is a popular techinque. I’ve found journaling more cathartic than typing online.
Presented for your enjoyment, Catsterpiece Classics: Downton Tabby (also feat. “Hiss of the D’Urbervilles” and “Pawliver Twist”):
Heh so funny, How in the world they dressed that cat! Is a pretty red dress too.
Trish, you just changed what you said. First it was “closing the door” on marriage, then you said it was less chance of being of being very satisfied. Which is it? I agree with the latter, but not the former. It didn’t stop FormerPlaya, did it?
A strong dislike of men with high counts would take the form as this: “I have never slept with a man unless he had a low count, and never will”.
I’m surprised none of the men on HUS chimed in about oral sex not counting…….There are people that engage in NSA sex that only includes oral, and then they reserve P in V for LTR’s.
@Anacaona C (#138)
Haha! I know, right?
As to dressing cats… well, um… Let’s just say, there is a huge Halloween Costume market out there for pets and with enough kitty treats and the right camera angles, *anything* is possible.
Don’t ask me how I know this.
@SW
“”
Not looking to rock the boat or anything, but isn’t 15+ partners kind of pushing the envelope for women seeking spouses for a lifelong commitment? I hate to drop boring statistics: 2008 CDC/Census says 28% of men aged 25+ reported 15+ lifetime partners. This includes all forms of sex (with women). About 7 in 10 guys report less than 15, and half of guys report 6 or less.
Obviously, you can’t judge individuals (solely) by their stats, but is this really the best pool of potential mates to be looking in? Within the 15+ crowd, 47% have been divorced once. These guys either racked up their numbers before tying the knot, or after the divorce papers were signed. Or while they were married, who knows?
You know what they say about self-selected surveys… I’d love to see this done with a large, random sampling of married folks. But you’re right when it comes to “the number”. You’ve maintained a successful marriage despite what some statistics might predict. I have too, on the left side of the curve. I’ve met some guys who couldn’t believe I was able to get married at all given my low number, let alone to a tall, leggy blonde : )
Don’t ask me how I know this.
Why I’m getting the feeling that I need your catvice? My cat barely tolerates her collar and everytime she gets accidentally free of it it takes me hours to put it back. So pretty dresses are out of the question for her.
Well, nice to know there’s some statistical possibility that run-arounds can be salvaged, lol. But this is prettyy stupid: “Self-described religious Alphas with counts of 15-30 were pro-marriage. I agree with Vox that these men represent real catches – they’ve achieved significant success with women, but still hold to traditional values”. Christian men don’t sleep with 15-30 women before marriage. What a crock, but not surprising from someone professing both Vox’s beliefs about women and his claims of Christianity.
Megaman
rock on
Jen: “Christian men don’t sleep with 15-30 women before marriage.”
Fake Christians do – for once I agree with you.
@Ana (#144)
Is she really squirrelly? Maybe it depends on temperment: Both mine are little slothy cuddlebugs: They will let 4-year-olds hold them.
(Although the big one was 20lbs when I adopted him, so your average 4y.o. probably couldn’t pick him off the ground!) I give them extensive cuddles and praise, then slip their heads into the costume, as quick as I can. Once it’s captured on video, their work is complete and I set them free. Their laziness works well in their behalf– they do put up with a lot before the yowling starts
@ Susan:
I checked what I was looking to check in the reference. Incidentally your contact page isn’t working with my browser (FireFox on Linux) or I would send along what I found. Perhaps, as you know where to find me, you might drop me a line if it isn’t too much trouble?
@Jennifer (#145)
“What a crock, but not surprising from someone professing both Vox’s beliefs about women and his claims of Christianity.”
What are his claims of Christianity? I would be very interested in this, if someone is a professing Christian, they are usually held to an extremely high standard.
Thanks in advance, Jennifer
Is she really squirrelly? Maybe it depends on temperment: Both mine are little slothy cuddlebugs: They will let 4-year-olds hold them.
She is Dominican and most Dominican cats are at least 1/4 feral, in fact she needed three vets to give her, her medicines here because we couldn’t and hubby has had cats all his life. We call him the little blender in the shape of a cat and the vets are terrified of her, she clawed her first one, and then here she fought like a champ the first time we took her in to fix her. And she is not even 8 pounds….so yeah not little dresses anytime soon I guess
@Ms. Jennifer
I’m an agnostic, but my sex life back when I was single probably made people think I was super-religious : )
I’ve heard anecdotally, that some former players become born-again Christians. They go cold turkey and insist on waiting until marriage to have any sex whatsoever. A quirk of conscience perhaps? Talk about swinging from one extreme to the other. I think Aristotle talked about a “golden mean”, that desirable middle path in life. Applying that to this topic, my guess is the magic number for most people is probably in the mid-single digits, with a healthy dose of romance thrown in.
@MegaMan
“I’ve heard anecdotally, that some former players become born-again Christians. They go cold turkey and insist on waiting until marriage to have any sex whatsoever. A quirk of conscience perhaps?”
I had a friend who was like this. She had been promiscuous (both men and women), overdone it on drugs and alcohol and there were other issues as well.
I met her once she was “born again” and remember being impressed at her devotion. But, as time went on, I found it difficult because it was like there was only one right answer. (Her reading of the Bible was quite literal, I believe it is meant as allegory.) If I did something that was wrong, I felt harshly harshly judged by her. Also with the anti-Popery, as she belonged to a “Bible-based church” that was rather anti-Catholic.
I’ve noticed these kind of people have very “black or white” thinking (all or nothing stuff). I also wonder if there aren’t impulse or addiction issues at bay as well. (My friend had a family history of alcoholism.)
Personally, I like balance.
The determining factor in whether a guy’s partner count is too high is the size of the ego on the woman who wants to land him. All women want to be a man’s “last romance” to validate and raise them above all the women that went before. What a petty little thing a woman’s self worth is.
@ modernguy
Or maybe we just don’t like sluts for the same reason men don’t, which can be attributed to “ego” as well. Why is that so hard for some people to comprehend?
“…Male friends in my real life say “I don’t want to know”, because there’s no positive purpose. Even if a man says he doesn’t care, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an underlying wound to the ego. ”
Its important for both partners to get tested for STDs. Beyond that, I don’t see much use in knowing. Either you love someone or you don’t.”
If a man doesn’t want to know, it’s because he’s afraid of finding out that you were a slut, and of what that implies about you. It’s not about ego because from the outset it’s a given that the average women can get sex much, much easier than the average man can. A woman with more sexual experience than her partner did not “beat” him at the game, she was simply giving it up easily. Furthermore, love doesn’t exist in some 5th dimensional plane unaffected by revelations about your past. Finding out your wife blew the football team is going to make you reevaluate your feelings for her.
Trish- what do you mean?
@Jackie
Between Jack Chick on the right and Richard Dawkins on the left, I don’t envy Catholic folks these days. Seems like bullets are flying from every direction. However, the Church does have a lot of its own housecleaning to do IMO.
Hearing women express their distaste in promiscuous men feels really good. When I went to Catholic school I was taught that male sexuality is just as precious as female sexuality and that a man should make sure he only gives it to the right woman. But when I got into college I was pounded by the message that only female sexuality is precious and that male sexuality is just worthless. Reading evo-psych sunk the point in further.
But when I started to talk to actual women about this, it seems they are very possessive of male sexuality. Most women I’ve talked to want their man’s sperm all to herself. Evo-psych research seems to be catch up here too, and it seems that sexual evolution is more complicated than we thought it was. Male sexuality may be precious after all.
Christian men don’t sleep with 15-30 women before marriage. What a crock, but not surprising from someone professing both Vox’s beliefs about women and his claims of Christianity.
It would appear the reference to Augustine went over your head. It is not exactly unheard of for people to convert to Christianity, I’m told history records a few incidents of it. My previous non-Christianity is a matter of public record, as those who are familiar with my old band will know. And in the USA, both men and women brought up in the faith often leave it for what amounts to an unofficial extended Rumspringa when first exposed to the freedom and secular pressure of college life, then return to it in their twenties and thirties after realizing that hedonism not only isn’t all that it is cracked up to be, but often comes with a price.
One can, of course, dismiss this as a cunningly hypocritical long term strategic approach to life. However, since the average individual has trouble anticipating tomorrow, let alone next week, I suggest simple human weakness is the more reasonable explanation.
@Hope
Haha, he sounds funny. I bet it makes him feel fantastic when you say that though. What a great way to treat your husband!
My husband just left the house, looking very elegant in his clothes, as per usual. As he kissed me goodbye, I said, “You’re a looker.” He said, “Better than a lurker?” I told him I already have more lurkers than I know what to do with.
I caught that too. Definitely a credible example. I did find one thing interesting – his wife made the offer, and he has never taken her up on it. So she isn’t actually sharing him. She obviously found it strategically advantageous to give permission, but we have no way of knowing how their relationship or marriage would change if he had sex with other people. Do we really believe it would stay the same if he started spending evenings out getting laid by other women? Given Former Playa’s relationship and sexual history, his wife may have made a concession to secure his commitment, feeling pretty confident he’d never act on it.
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