Dad or Cad?
In an effort to get a sense of the demographics of his readers, Vox Day recently posted a list of questions and asked for anonymous responses. He got 141 male and 14 female responses, which strikes me as an excellent response rate. He presented some of his data today at Alpha Game, and there was one finding he thought might be the “cad/dad solution” for HUS readers. Here it is:
6. There is a noticeable difference between the Alphas and the High Alpha players. The obvious dividing line there is around 40+ partners. So, there is the all-important distinction that many women have requested. Any man with more than 30+ historical partners should probably be assumed to be a ruthless player unfit for a long-term relationship as 62% of the men in this category were anti-marriage; only the male virgins, at 66%, were more strongly anti-marriage. This compares with the 80% of Alphas in the 15-30 category who were pro-marriage; all of those who were anti-marriage were irreligious and most were divorced.
(Note: After looking at the data, Vox defined Alpha as 15+ partners.)
It should also be noted that for the purposes of his survey, Vox defined the number of sexual partners as including oral sex. Generally at HUS we do not include oral sex, so adjust your conclusions accordingly.
From Vox:
In other words, if a woman is addicted to Alpha and insists on attempting to transform a cad into a dad, she can increase her chances of success and actually harbor a reasonable hope of doing so if his partner count is more than 10 but less than 30, and if he is religious as well.
My thoughts:
1. Vox focuses on the lack of relationship fitness of guys who have had 40+ sex partners as a natural consequence of their being anti-marriage, although he also uses the word ruthless to describe their approach to sex. I am not sure which comes first:
- natural cad tendencies
- opportunities for NSA sex
- unwillingness to marry
2. I do not claim that men with 40+ partners would definitely make bad husbands, but regardless of their views of marriage, I would worry about men with that much sexual variety under their belts (heh). The 2004 National Life and Health Survey found:
For every premarital sexual partner, a man’s likelihood of being extremely sexually satisfied in marriage falls 5.3%. This means that a man with a number of 10 before marriage is 53% less likely to be describe himself as extremely satisfied in marriage. By implication, all men with 20 previous partners will feel moderately sexually satisfied in marriage at best.
3. Self-described religious Alphas with counts of 15-30 were pro-marriage. I agree with Vox that these men represent real catches – they’ve achieved significant success with women, but still hold to traditional values. Of course, if a woman is not religious, she is probably not interested in marrying a religious man regardless of his partner count.
4. One commenter at Alpha Game made the following observation about STDs:
There should be a qualifier for those claiming 35 to 40 plus conquests. Have they had/have an STD… And spare me the I always use a condom nonsense. Crabs, the drip, Derek Jeters Simplex 2 self identification would help separate the true players from the posers.
Vox agreed, saying, “Very good point on the STDs. Some of the alpha players I knew used to joke about playing STD bingo.”
This leads me to my previous claims that women are repelled by manwhores. The problem with that claim is that women are clearly repelled only when a certain threshold, i.e. partner count, is reached. Before that tipping point, the male benefits from preselection. A woman’s repulsion probably also depends on how she learns of his sexual past. Does she see him hitting on slutty women in public? Or does he tell her honestly that back in the day he pulled quite a few girls, but now he’s ready for a serious relationship? I know I would respond very differently in those two scenarios.
I don’t think 15-30 partners is very worrisome or predictive of much, especially if that number includes blowjobs. I agree with Vox that there are plenty of dads in that cohort.
30-40+ partners seems as good a place as any to draw a line for defining a cad. Since they wish to avoid marriage, even in their 30s, I’d say that high a number should probably be a dealbreaker for long-term dating.
Vox has indeed proposed a strategically sound solution to the dad/cad dilemma.
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My SO is from NH. I would be willing to plan a trip up north to swing by and meet some of my HUS peeps. Although I’m not sure I can convince her to go anywhere in Mass. I never heard the term “masshole” before our trip to NH the first time. It seems people from NH think Bostonians can’t drive. :-p
Jason,
Asking the morning after? And you think you’re getting an accurate response?
Jason,
First you said this:
And then later you wrote this:
It seems to me it’s the type of girl you’re pursuing (bar flys who are okay having ONS with alphas) is a big reason why “dating” doesn’t fly. They’re either not used to it or not looking for it. If they are open to a relationship, these type of girls are using sex as a bargaining chip. It’s how they get in the door, so another approach is foreign to them.
Looking for a low number count from these girls is a like a needle in a haystack. “Good girls” – in the sense of low numbers and relationship readiness – are not trolling for strange in the club every weekend.
To find the type of girls who DO expect to be asked on a date before considering dating/sleeping with a guy you should look elsewhere. That type of girl is a much safer bet for a LTR or marriage. She doesn’t let her “tingle” guide her through life.
JM,
I haven’t always asked, just sometimes, and of course they could be lying, I understand that, but I have a very keen read on people and I’m fairly confident in my assessment of a girl’s answer.
Look, you’re skeptical of what I’m saying because your reality can’t imagine someone doing some of the things I’ve done. That’s fair, but I have no reason to lie and waste my time on here. I am just a very introspective person and I enjoy talking about this stuff.
Jason,
Um, no. That’s not why I’m skeptical. I’ve had ONSs. And first night sex. I just decided it’s not for me.
I’m skeptical exactly because I spent my summer having a great deal of “success” with short term game.
Iggles,
I think you and I are completely on the same page, but if you look closer at what I wrote, I say that it’s been very difficult to find that ‘good’ girl who has the level of physical beauty that I seek. IME, the good ones who are also very attractive have mostly been taken, and again it’s like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Even if someone is a great girl and amazing person, if I’m not attracted then I’m not attracted, and I can’t help that.
“Idk. I can’t see myself marrying if I had that opinion of women.”
You are innocent, my friend. All are fallen. Male weaknesses simply happen to be different than female weaknesses, but we all have them. As to marriage, it really depends upon what you are looking for in a woman. And no matter who you marry, she will have weaknesses, she will be sinful, she will do and say things that are stupid and things that are intentionally harmful… because she is human. If you are fortunate, if you have chosen wisely, you will love her madly anyhow.
I’m not fighting straw men. Or straw women even. Women who feed off of easy validation from inebriated strangers sound shallow to me.
All women are shallow by male standards, or close enough to all as makes no difference. As Camille Paglia says, the reason there are no great female rock guitarists – or philosophers, for that matter – is the same reason there are no female serial killers. NB: this is rhetoric, not statistical precision, on Paglia’s part.
But do you realize that what you are saying is: ALL women WILL cheat on their husband/BF given the right set of circumstances. I’m not saying you are right or wrong, but that would be a VERY bitter pill for everyone to swallow…
Not quite correct. ALL women ARE PERFECTLY CAPABLE of cheating on their husband/BF given the right set of circumstances. And even so, the statistics show that most women don’t cheat on their husbands and most men don’t cheat on their wives. There are no certainties in human action, there are only statistical probabilities.
It’s cool, bro. You’ll understand if that doesn’t cut it for me, I’m sure.
@ Ted
” I never heard the term “masshole” before our trip to NH the first time. It seems people from NH think Bostonians can’t drive. :-p”
It wasn’t too bad when I was living in Brookline. I spent a whole year biking everywhere in the city without a helmet and feeling perfectly safe. The biggest thing is that their streets are messed up because they were all laid out for carriages and never really changed, so the streets are narrow and lead to odd things like there’s one street that literally loops around and intersects itself.
Compare that to Chicago…. I got a helmet the first week biking around this city, and our streets here are wider and WOULD be safer. But drivers here don’t care and are assholes.
JM,
Sorry that I pegged you wrong then. Like I said, I’m fully aware of a girl’s incentive to lie in a situation like that, but I’m also confident in my own reads, not to say that I’m right 100% though.
JM
“It’s cool, bro. You’ll understand if that doesn’t cut it for me, I’m sure.”
Of course, it’s anecdotal evidence to you and nothing concrete at all. I can only share what I know and how I processed things at the time. I also made a part time living of reading people during my college years (live poker), which again leads to my personal reads.
VD,
I’m many things but innocent isn’t one of them.
I don’t believe in sin, but I do believe we’re all imperfect. That’s different from saying that all or even most women would fuck a stranger given the time of the month and her relationship status.
And I don’t know Camille, though even if I did, I wouldn’t accept the notion that all or even most women are superficial by male standards.
I wouldn’t marry if I believed all that. I wouldn’t consider monogamy or commitment of any flavor.
@Jason
OK, thanks for clarifying on the 50%.
= Dark Game, or Asshole Game. IMO, the most alpha guys never have to do this. They get the date the traditional way with no trouble. It’s more of a challenge, and certainly women in the market for a ONS won’t reward less sexual aggression. If you want to meet someone with a low count, you are extremely unlikely to find her in a bar. Also, I’m not saying you’ve taken home blackout chicks, but 85% of hookups occur between two drunk people. If you’re finding women in a place where nearly everyone is drunk by 2 a.m., then I don’t see how you’ve avoided drunk women.
Look, this isn’t meant just for you, but I don’t want this discussion to go off the rails with the same old argument about whether all women are sluts at heart. The women push back hard on that here because none of them are, and frankly, I believe you would find a warm welcome with this argument at Rollo’s, who is a key proponent of this theory.
Like I said early in the thread, the ratio of her lays to yours strikes me as reasonable, but if my math is correct, she had P in V sex with 14 men at college, and that easily puts her in the most promiscuous group (top 3%). If you’d gone to school with her, she might well have been one of your 40. I doubt she thinks a single one of those lays was worth it. Women need to start understanding that feminism didn’t kill the sexual double standard, and fast.
Jason,
I understand you only want a girl who meets your attractiveness standards (we all want/need partners we’re hot for), however that still doesn’t make your current approach a winning one. Pulling girls from ONS and then from those woman trying to jumpstart a relationship will get you where you currently are — dating an amazing, attractive woman who is great in bed but her one “flaw” is that she’s too promiscuous for your tastes, even though you’ve been with over 40 women.
Just calling it like I see it. You can try the same thing over and over, and then agonize that the results are the same! You have to try another way — coffee shops, meet up groups, online dating (the horror! /snark), etc. Girls who hook up with strangers in bar generally will have a high partner count. It’s just the way it is! Luckily for you, bars are NOT the only place to find attractive women.
VD – but every human is perfectly capable of killing as well. If we are talking about what someone is capable of, I honestly don’t see the point of the conversation. We are all capable of doing everything. But that is NOT thensamemasmsaying every single woman on planet earth WILL fall for game. What I think you are saying is:
Every woman is capable of falling for game. But that also implies that many will never fall for game at all.
It kinda strikes me as yelling fire in a crowded theater.
Meant to say, “You can’t try the same thing over and over”
Typos :-/
@Dan Brodribb
Thank you, your comment on breakups was very helpful. That all makes a lot of sense to me. It’s the compartmentalization that I was missing. Do you think that a woman who gets involved with a guy still grieving in that way is entering a risky situation? I compared it to being the first woman a newly divorced man takes out to dinner…If you’re grieving, and enter a new relationship with a woman, can you fall hard for her, or hang in there until you’re truly emotionally available? IDK, I think this sounds risky for either sex.
@Ted D
I’d love to meet you and your SO! She’s right about Boston drivers though. I feel like I risk my life every time I leave the driveway. Also, Massholes? Yup, plenty to be found at any Boston sports game and surrounding bars.
@Iggles
I just want to say that I am very happy you stuck around. You leave some great comments.
LoB – I’m from Western PA. We pick on Ohio drivers. :p
If it makes you feel any better, she said they aren’t fond of people from Vermont either. I believe she called them “Berkenstock wearing tree-huggers”. I thought those came from California. Lol
I’m actually surprised just how snooty people from New England are sometimes. Since PA seems to be the buffer between NE and the south, I always assumed we were snobby. But I swear a few of her friends looked at me like I might sprout a second head when she told them I was born and raised in Pittsburgh. And these are not Upper Class people. She is from the wilderness of the lakes region. No lie, I thought we were in West Virginia a few times judging by all the jacked up trucks with gun racks in them!
Susan,
“= Dark Game, or Asshole Game. IMO, the most alpha guys never have to do this. They get the date the traditional way with no trouble. It’s more of a challenge, and certainly women in the market for a ONS won’t reward less sexual aggression. If you want to meet someone with a low count, you are extremely unlikely to find her in a bar. Also, I’m not saying you’ve taken home blackout chicks, but 85% of hookups occur between two drunk people. If you’re finding women in a place where nearly everyone is drunk by 2 a.m., then I don’t see how you’ve avoided drunk women.
Look, this isn’t meant just for you, but I don’t want this discussion to go off the rails with the same old argument about whether all women are sluts at heart. The women push back hard on that here because none of them are, and frankly, I believe you would find a warm welcome with this argument at Rollo’s, who is a key proponent of this theory.”
I’ll admit to having some level of asshole game, but that isn’t a front, it’s just an extension of who I really am. I’m not the nicest guy on the planet, I would never claim to be, but I also treat close friends and lovers very well. If what I do is considered dark game, then so be it, but I don’t even know what term would describe the liars, cheaters and extreme manipulators out there.
Also, I havn’t completely avoided drunk women, but a number of my encounters have been completely sober or in a state where only a few drinks have been had. I’ve turned down more than a handful of girls through my college years who were too drunk for my taste, as I didn’t find that attractive.
I also understand your second paragraph there, and for the record, I don’t consider all women sluts, or anything like that. I can only go by my own experience and what I’ve seen firsthand though. If traditional dating is that hard for a guy like me, who claims to be able to get women, I can only imagine how difficult it is for the nice guys out there. That’s all I’ll say on that if you want to curb that discussion.
I don’t know Camille, though even if I did, I wouldn’t accept the notion that all or even most women are superficial by male standards.
If you aren’t even familiar with La Paglia, your opinion is entirely irrelevant. Seriously.
@ Jesus Mahoney
I agree. I don’t care how “hot” a guy is, there’s no way I’d hook up with a stranger! Even drunk, don’t see it happening. This is an example where generalities are problematic.
We are very reserved, it’s true. Well, I’m not, but I’m kind of a weirdo around here. Even my kids get embarrassed by my conversations with random strangers. They are both quite reserved by comparison.
As for snooty, you don’t know what that is until you’ve been at a dinner party with Cambridge liberals.
Susan – in the spirit of NAWALT (NAMALT?)
“I compared it to being the first woman a newly divorced man takes out to dinner…”
My SO was the first woman I asked out after my divorce. In fact, because both our soon to be exes we’re out of state, we were dating well before our divorces were final. But, I had also been separated for months, and my SO had only been back with her now exhusband for about 4 months after their initial separation. Literally, they were separated for almost a year. When he found out she was moving to Pittsburgh to get a job, he wanted to “try and work it out.” she found out after the fact that he never even quit his job before he moved in. He took a 4 month sebatical, and rented a U-haul and drove away one week before it was up. She didn’t want him back, but tried the last ditch effort for her kids.
So maybe we were both already well past getting over our previous relationships before they officially ended anyway.
@Jason
I think traditional dating with low count women, including pretty ones (I know some!) is going to be harder than getting ONSs from higher count women. They’ve already demonstrated they are selective about their sexual partners, and their mating strategy is generally geared to long-term.
I do agree, by the way, with the general statement by Vox that we are all capable of just about everything. And that includes most or all women being capable of ONSs. (I’m currently reading a novel that begins with a nun giving birth to twins!) But some women have the conditions for that choice met much sooner than others. I think Iggles gave you good advice on that point.
You seem like a good guy – even if you say you are a bit of a natural dick. I certainly don’t think you’re a Dark Triad psychopath – just that you act like kind of a douche with women, based on your description. It might be worth experimenting with a slightly different approach in different kinds of venues.
Anyway, I still say give this woman a shot. You might also consider telling her very honestly how you feel about this, and see how she responds. I think the way she feels about those past experiences could tell you a lot. Frankly, I think the potential baggage from the previous BF could be more of a problem than random hookups back in college. Hard to say.
Thanks Susan!
@Ted D
Good point. You can be done grieving a relationship long before it ends.
But do you realize that what you are saying is: ALL women WILL cheat on their husband/BF given the right set of circumstances. I’m not saying you are right or wrong, but that would be a VERY bitter pill for everyone to swallow…
And, it also tends to support the extreme “all women are cheating sluts” meme often found in the manosphere.
Ted,
I don’t believe either of those statements, and actually neither of those conclusions necessarily follows logically from my point.
Firstly, I do believe many women when they are “in love” with their man sort of disconnect their attraction triggers to other men. Actually, it has been female commenters here that have made that point and convinced me of that. So. The same woman if single might sleep with that super attractive man on a first meeting would never do so if in a committed relationship.
Secondly, I don’t believe in these binary categories of “good girls” and “cheating sluts”. I don’t believe in making a categorical statement like “good girls wouldn’t have sex with a guy they just met in a bar”. I don’t believe this because I have personal experience that refutes it. Its just too easy and tidy to categorize women that way, and I believe results from the cognitive dissonance of contemplating that one’s good girl was in fact capable of fucking a stranger in a bar one night. To me, the important distinction is women where this is a one-off event or a few instances versus the ones that make a pattern of it.
In terms of facial structure and looks, I’d say I’m about an 8, but I also am big into weight lifting, and keep in very good shape. I’d be willing to send Susan a pic or two to be a judge if it helps with discussion. I honestly think looks only play a small part, although some guys would argue that I say this because I already am fairly good looking. I will say though, that I think I have very tight game. I’m not always 100% on, but when I am, it’s almost as if I can’t be stopped.
I’m not going to prod you to do that, but it might be interested in just validating. Frankly, I love it when guys like you and formerplaya show up because it tends to validate things that I’ve said that often get a skeptical eye. I think if we got a bunch more attractive, higher count men commenting, you’d see a fairly common pattern of experiences that would be hard to dispute, especially in terms of who, why, what of women responding.
I actually think looks play a sizable component. Ha, we are having that debate here…join in:
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/02/23/looks-count/
FWIW, I’m 38 now. From say the age of 14 to 38 my looks have varied substantially from short geeky looking nerd with glasses and braces (freshman year of high school) to looking like I was sculpted from stone. My peak look was probably around 32-33 when I was 6’3″ at around 245 and 9-10% bodyfat, and tanning 2-3 times a week. I noticed the difference in female attention over the years depending on how I looked at that moment in time. Just another example. I started dating my GF in 2006. From 2006 through 2009, I pretty much stayed at 245-250 consistently wearing 36″ pants. Let’s just say I didn’t hurt for women checking me out in the gym. Since 2009, I’ve been working a brutal schedule that essentially is 2 full-time jobs with 4 hours of sleep. I’ve been pretty much gaining bodyfat at a rate of 1-1.5 pound per month so I’m 290ish right now. Thankfully I’m tall, and carry a lot of muscle so the fat can kind of distribute itself halfway decent. Still, I look like shit compared to what I looked like 3-4 years ago. The amount of attention and immediate IOIs I get have dropped off a cliff. If I were single again, my first priority would be geting back down to 245-250 before even trying to refine a single aspect of Game (relationship Game is different than pickup Game IMO).
Susan,
“I think traditional dating with low count women, including pretty ones (I know some!) is going to be harder than getting ONSs from higher count women. They’ve already demonstrated they are selective about their sexual partners, and their mating strategy is generally geared to long-term.”
Maybe I’ve just been looking for the holy grail. The good girl that I flip one night cuz she is powerless to resist me and who I also fall crazy for. Can’t blame a guy for wishing haha.
“I do agree, by the way, with the general statement by Vox that we are all capable of just about everything. And that includes most or all women being capable of ONSs. (I’m currently reading a novel that begins with a nun giving birth to twins!) But some women have the conditions for that choice met much sooner than others. I think Iggles gave you good advice on that point.”
Agree on all counts.
“You seem like a good guy – even if you say you are a bit of a natural dick. I certainly don’t think you’re a Dark Triad psychopath – just that you act like kind of a douche with women, based on your description. It might be worth experimenting with a slightly different approach in different kinds of venues.”
I think this is pretty accurate actually. I’ll take ‘douche’ in the fondest form of the word.
“Anyway, I still say give this woman a shot. You might also consider telling her very honestly how you feel about this, and see how she responds. I think the was she feels about those past experiences could tell you a lot. Frankly, I think the potential baggage from the previous BF is more worrisome than random hookups back in college. Hard to say.”
I will and I did have this talk, just last night (I’m tired today). She responded just in the way you said she should, which I took as a very good sign. I’ve just been speaking in generalities with these posts today, and it’s been lively discussion.
And I really need to learn how to do in-line quotes. I feel like an internet n00b.
I doubt she’s familiar with me, and I forgive her for it…
FWIW–I tend to think of Camille Paglia as a man in a lesbian’s body–and not a very nice man at that. She should just grow a penis and have done with it; I strongly suspect that she wishes she could–truly, no snark about that.
parts of this discussion remind me of a line from the movie War of the Roses. Kathleen Turner meets Michael Douglas for the first time and within and hour or so they have a mad, passionate sex romp, after which, exhausted, she says “If this relationship lasts, this will have been the most romantic moment of my life. If it doesn’t, I’m a complete slut.”
Mike C – “The same woman if single might sleep with that super attractive man on a first meeting would never do so if in a committed relationship”
I think this is exactly where I’m stuck right now. Between believing the statement above, and believing that there are two types of woman: slutty or not slutty, to be blunt. I believe my SO is the woman above you described, and has said as much indirectly. But that concept ismsomforeign to me that I can’t wrap my head around it. I don’t understand how any person can live by two different sets of rules:
1. How I behave when I’m single.
2. How I behave when I’m attached.
I have always behaved the same regardless of my relationship status.
Traditional dating is not very romantic when applied to modern times. A date used to be something that took place between two people who already know each other, like students who know each other, friends of friends, or coworkers.
My husband and I had our first dinner date over a month after we first started talking a lot to each other. It’s very difficult to go on a date with a total stranger, and generally the outcomes are not positive. Even online dating has this problem. People were not meant to get together this way.
Girls who don’t react well to a stranger during a restaurant dating situation are not necessarily slutty and may not respond to a total dark triad cad who pushes her for the bedroom right away. I wouldn’t like to do traditional dates with a stranger either. I would want to get to know a guy slowly and over a period of time beforehand.
Sorry for the typos. I sold my soul to the devil and got an iPad2. Totally screwing up the touch screen typing. Lol
@ Jason,
haha. It’s the HTML tag blockquotes. Copy what you want to say, paste it. At the beginning put the opening tag: <blockquote>
At the end put the closing tag: </blockquote>
Text editors do strange things. Hopefully what I wrote will show up. (I’m a web designer, btw..)
@Ted
1. I took the test my freshman year of college, and it said that I was extroverted but up until that point I had been a serious introverted loner. I think I decided to branch out and be more social, which I did, but ultimately, I’m back to being like I was when I was younger. I think for a time I tried to join the “college experience” like other people, but I came to realize it wasn’t for me. I really do think I actually might be an introvert considering how often I’m literally sitting somewhere quietly thinking. It happens multiples times a day to the point where I actually get annoyed when someone is making noise because they are interrupting my thought process.
2. It too takes hell and high water to move me. I don’t just come to these decisions on a whim. I spend time considering all the pro’s/cons and how something will impact my own self worth or well being. People seem to find it really difficult to actually decided what THEY want excluding outside influences. Now that I think about it, I spend quite a bit of time reflecting on almost every new thing that I am exposed to.
@Iggles
Is it odd that I have a rough draft of how I’d like my life to go? Lol, I have a tendency to always make sure I have a least the next few years figured out. I’ve found that observing other people and learning about their experiences helps me to avoid making the same decisions. Still can’t believe how people fall into the same traps that their parents, siblings, friends etc fall into when it comes to people.
I was under the impression that for men it took longer to get over a LTR than it did for a woman. But maybe that is only the case when he does not find someone new. Maybe when he finds someone new having renewed access to spread his seed makes him get over it very fast. And maybe women only get over those they deem of lesser value fast but hold on the the A guy in their minds forever, more so than men because of hypergamy. THe ones of lesser value would be failures to hook up with anyway acording to her agenda but the A guy IS her agenda to a much larger degree. The A woman, although important for a man is not THAT important as long as he has access to sex and so is moving on his genes. Especially if that new woman is only a little bit less attractive than the ex it would be easier to get over. Considering that over the course of history only 40% of men on average passed on their genes while 80% of women did so passing on his genes in any way means success in and of itself. The 20% of women probably mostly died or were infertile rather than did not find anyone although some could not find any provider. So mainly success for women is a good catch. Not necessarily the top A guy in her life but any guy that satisfies her hypergamy. Of course the A woman is important to us and a huge threat to the B woman but the difference in degree can possibly be very large.
@Mike C
Are you trying to piss me off by linking to Rollo twice in one thread?
Seriously, some of the convos here belong there. The threads there and at Badger’s recently are perfect for them, and not for HUS. We need to do a bit of dividing and conquering, I think.
I tend to think of Camille Paglia as a man in a lesbian’s body–and not a very nice man at that. She should just grow a penis and have done with it; I strongly suspect that she wishes she could–truly, no snark about that.
No doubt. But that doesn’t make her any less brilliant. It’s bitterly disappointing that she turned out to be a one-trick pony, but what a trick it was. I would strongly recommend her Sexual Personae to anyone with an interest in Game. Harold Bloom himself said: “There is no book comparable in scope, stance, design or insight.” Now, I would argue that Rothbard’s Austrian Perspective on the History of Economic Analysis actually surpasses it, but still, it’s very well worth reading.
Ted d, a narcissist mom can influence a daughter to have casual sex indirectly. The n mom tries to sabotage the daughter’s ltrs. The daughter of an n thinks “what’s the point of having a bf if mom will just try to break it up and intrude?” casual sex seems like an easy way of intimacy that the girl can settle for. Sounds like her mom isn’t involved as much with u , which is good.
Susan – I’m OK with Badgers, but I really can’t stomach Rollo. Not because I think he is wrong, which for the most part I don’t. I really do not like his delivery. He is far too confrontational and aggressive. Probably very good for his followers, but I don’t like any extremists, even when I agree with them.
@Mike C
“I’m not going to prod you to do that, but it might be interested in just validating. Frankly, I love it when guys like you and formerplaya show up because it tends to validate things that I’ve said that often get a skeptical eye. I think if we got a bunch more attractive, higher count men commenting, you’d see a fairly common pattern of experiences that would be hard to dispute, especially in terms of who, why, what of women responding.”
As I said, if Susan would like, I’d be completely willing to send a couple pics. As I’m sure you know, there are way too many keyboard jockeys when it comes to these topics and there is not enough backup evidence. And with my high count friends, experiences are very similar, so I know exactly where you are coming from.
“FWIW, I’m 38 now. From say the age of 14 to 38 my looks have varied substantially from short geeky looking nerd with glasses and braces (freshman year of high school) to looking like I was sculpted from stone. My peak look was probably around 32-33 when I was 6’3″ at around 245 and 9-10% bodyfat, and tanning 2-3 times a week. I noticed the difference in female attention over the years depending on how I looked at that moment in time. Just another example. I started dating my GF in 2006. From 2006 through 2009, I pretty much stayed at 245-250 consistently wearing 36″ pants. Let’s just say I didn’t hurt for women checking me out in the gym. Since 2009, I’ve been working a brutal schedule that essentially is 2 full-time jobs with 4 hours of sleep. I’ve been pretty much gaining bodyfat at a rate of 1-1.5 pound per month so I’m 290ish right now. Thankfully I’m tall, and carry a lot of muscle so the fat can kind of distribute itself halfway decent. Still, I look like shit compared to what I looked like 3-4 years ago. The amount of attention and immediate IOIs I get have dropped off a cliff. If I were single again, my first priority would be geting back down to 245-250 before even trying to refine a single aspect of Game (relationship Game is different than pickup Game IMO).”
I don’t want to get into a heated debate about how much looks matter (I’ve been there and done that), but I will say this…I think good looks help in the sense that it gives you more opportunity to fuck up with a woman and still be forgiven. In a scenario with two guys, say a 9 and a 6, if their game is equal the 9 wins out always. But if the 6 has superb game, he can and does win a lot.
I was raised on southside of Chicago, and one of my buddies from the old neighborhood, a 5’6″, pale, slightly pudgy, curly haired irish ginger ALWAYS was pulling attractive women. Now, these wouln’t be considered high socioeconomic class women, as I didn’t grow up in a neighborhood like that, but they were no doubt physically attractive and he was winning out over much better looking guys from the neighborhood. He was and is just a natural alpha in his niche, with rock solid frame. Like NOTHING ever phased him and he had an irrational self confidence considering his station in life. If a guy like this can do it, I believe anyone has the capability deep down.
And I also understand your own journey, so to speak. I was a FFB, up until around age 15 or 16, when I decided to get my shit together. Now at 24, I’m 6’0, 220, and around 14% or so. Looking good allows for inner confidence which shines through to women, but if that confidence can be derived from some other place, then things are even imo.
@ Hope:
Wow, blockquote fail! And after giving Jason advice, haha!
@VD
I love CP. I agree with much of what she says about feminism, she tells it straight and she doesn’t take any BS.
@Jason
I do say douche with fondness. I can see that you are genuinely trying to make this work, and seeking help and advice from others. I commend that. I hope you’ll stick around, keep us posted, and chime in when you feel inclined. You’re obvs a smart guy and you have a lot going for you.
Thanks, Wudang. Good point about the drive of men to pass on their genes – it makes sense they would not wallow in sorrow for very long. Whereas we nurture our pain after a breakup…
@Ted
Badger has a great blog, I didn’t mean to equate the demeanor of the two bloggers. I’ve just seen some threads recently that resemble the kinds of threads that give me a migraine, so I’m just as happy to have those debates happening elsewhere.
@Jason
Send ‘em along, Jason! You are one brave fellow. If you have any restrictions you want observed, just let me know.
walsh.susan1@gmail.com
Jason – I second Susan’s last post to you. I like having players/former players around, as long as they are reasonably intelligent and willing to have civil conversation. It always seems that the players are also the guys most likely to be constantly combative, or just so full of themselves that they can’t give a reasonable observation of anything, let alone themselves.
I suppose it comes with the territory. But you do seem to be the exception to that stereotype. Welcome to HUS: home of the outliers.
I love the online dating success stories. It’s a ton of work, but if things are slow for whatever reason in your life, it’s a strategy worth pursuing.
There are a few non-fiction authors I can stomach in large doses (Joseph Campbell, Marshal McLuhan, Nietzsche, Bertrand Russell being, I think, the most notable) , but non-fiction mostly bores me. I’m happy with Pynchon, Calvino, Gaddis, Borges, et al. back to Homer. I’ll leave the non-fiction to the more “serious”-minded folks here.
Susan,
Pics sent.
Are you trying to piss me off by linking to Rollo twice in one thread?
Nope. I just thought it was germane in both instances to a subject being discussed. I don’t recall the former example, but in the latter example Jason made a point about looks which I wanted to respond to. FWIW, if I was posting a comment at Rational Male that I thought linking to you was germane to making a point, I’d do so without hesitation.
Seriously, some of the convos here belong there. The threads there and at Badger’s recently are perfect for them, and not for HUS. We need to do a bit of dividing and conquering, I think.
No prob. FWIW, 2 things.
1. I am trying to abide by your stated desire to keep any negativity.harshness out of comments.
2. Most if not all of the comment threads on just about every single post eventually devolve into a number of multiple conversations amongst a few different people, some of which don’t interest other people at all,but are of interest to those few participants. The “looks matter” is always a hot topic amongst guys. Jason showed up here, he made that point, I responded with the link and an invitation to carry it on there. Truthfully, anyone not interested in the conversation Jason and I are having can skip those comments. Tangential conversations occur all the time ranging from Catholic/Lutheran theology to Camille Paglia that have nothing to do with the original post. I really respect your intent about curbing the negativity…..I hope we aren’t taking that to what conversations are permissible amongst a few commenters?
@Susan (617)
“Do you think that a woman who gets involved with a guy still grieving in that way is entering a risky situation? I compared it to being the first woman a newly divorced man takes out to dinner…If you’re grieving, and enter a new relationship with a woman, can you fall hard for her, or hang in there until you’re truly emotionally available?”
My take on it is it depends how far along in the process the guy is, how recent the break-up was, and how long they were together. My feeling is, I don’t have to be 100% over a woman to have a good relationship to another, but I tend to react to non-consensual break-ups with a period of self-doubt and shaky confidence and I’ve found from experience I need to get through that part before I can devote much relationship energy to someone else.
I would say the most important thing for a woman looking to date a guy recovering from a previous relationship to examine is whether the guy is in a place where the previous relationship is 100% over for him. He can miss his ex- and regret the way things ended, but he can’t be willing or wanting to get back together with her.
What’s your take on it?
Thanks Ted. In the internet arena I tend to be civil, or else things devolve quickly, and intelligent, thought provoking conversation is always a plus.
@Mike C
No worries, I really was kidding. I have no problem with anything you’ve said or done. And you’re right, I am very laid back about things wandering around off topic.
I really appreciate your keeping things positive, and for my part, I will try to refrain from engaging in pointless debates that get everybody’s knickers in a twist.
By the way, I noticed in the Rational Male thread about looks that dragnet said his comments on that subject are getting deleted at Heartiste. I find that very odd – what do you think that’s about? Just curious.
@Susan
“Though as I said, I know a very nice group of beta guys who are at 10 as they approach their mid-20s. Getting drunk at a party or bar can do wonders for your sex life.”
Yeah, but as OTC mentioned, those numbers are above the median. Most guys, especially beta guys, aren’t in that boat. We hired a bunch of millenial STEM guys in the last couple of years, and hanging with them, it was clear they weren’t too different than us late Gen-Xers were a decade ago (though they are more aware of the SMP than we were).
“You might want to take a red pill booster with your next glass of wine.”
I have two younger siblings who are out there in the SMP, so I hear from them all the time. What I hear from them is plenty enough to serve as a red-pill booster shot…
@ Ted and Susan
Yeah, I loved the rare people in Boston that would actually talk to strangers (me) and not think I’m crazy. That, and not being impressed with the availability of theatre for me to be able to work in, were the two huge factors that made me change locale. I love Boston, but as a place to visit, not one to live. Maybe I simply spent too much time on Mass Ave around the Huntington Theatre and Commonwealth Ave, but I simply couldn’t find people I could form any sort of connection with. Too many frat boys, sorority girls, or people just closed off to the world around them.
Growing up in Denver and theatre, I think I’ve found I’m a mid-west man at heart. Love it here and the work is incredibly rewarding.
@Dan Brodribb
I agree, that makes a lot of sense. Earlier in this thread Former Playa said that his wife originally gave him a lot of time to work his old gf out of his system, not pressuring him at all. If a woman can handle that, I think it’s a great strategy. He cites it as the key thing that made him commit to someone for real.
Obviously, when either person has just come off a relationship, if there’s any lingering disappointment, an honest conversation needs to be had. Otherwise, there’s the risk of getting weeks or months in and hearing, “I’m not over my ex” or even worse, “I’m getting back with my ex.” That firm commitment not to get back together should be there from the start, I agree.
Heh. Jason is gorgeous. If you decide to be a nice guy I’ve got a beauty with a low count for you, also a shiksa goddess.
Bah, I’ve got to figure out how to upload these pics to the comments.
“Not quite correct. ALL women ARE PERFECTLY CAPABLE of cheating on their husband/BF given the right set of circumstances. And even so, the statistics show that most women don’t cheat on their husbands and most men don’t cheat on their wives. There are no certainties in human action, there are only statistical probabilities.”
Not quite correct. ALL women ARE PERFECTLY CAPABLE of cheating on their husband/BF given the right set of circumstances. And even so, the statistics show that most women don’t cheat on their husbands and most men don’t cheat on their wives. There are no certainties in human action, there are only statistical probabilities”
Vox, what are the numbers on cheating? And speaking of numbers I think because of your background in economics a great couple of posts on your blog could be to look closer at all sorts of statistics on marriage and the SMP. We need more precision and I think you could suply that precision.
In regards to the discussion of men getting over women, I think it depends on two key factors.
1. How much he put into the relationship that was completely disregarded/unappreciated.
Classic Athol stuff. If you are Super Beta Man, subscribe to making her your world, then it’ll take awhile to be ready for a relationship. I’d say men can compartmentalize a lot, and move on with dating women and enjoying life, but probably will have a hard time jumping right back into a relationship unless:
2. The next relationship is everything the ex wasn’t.
She appreciates, supports, and comforts you on every level. You won’t care about the first if the second is so far above her.
3. If a guy goes, dates a few people, maybe has some ONS, FWB, or a non-serious short term relationship.
Subscribe to the same thing JM did after his issues with the woman he was engaged to. Simply enjoy life and remember there’s a world outside of that woman.
I know all three have worked wonders for me at various points.
I think Wudang’s comment #641 is an interesting one:
“I was under the impression that for men it took longer to get over a LTR than it did for a woman. But maybe that is only the case when he does not find someone new. ”
That’s a good point. It took me two years to get the first woman I was serious with. But a lot of the reason for that was that I was still an unrepentant beta, and thus, involuntarily celibate. I’m sure it would have much quicker recovery in some other pretty woman’s arms…
“Not quite correct. ALL women ARE PERFECTLY CAPABLE of cheating on their husband/BF given the right set of circumstances.”
Isn’t the point of relationship game* to make sure that those circumstances never occur? Of realizing those chances are a reality and making sure they don’t happen?
**Warning! May contain the Side Effect of producing a happy relationship that you both enjoy and don’t want to leave! USE WITH CAUTION!**
Susan,
You were the one that listed the various ways that girls (in your group?) discount certain sexual encounters.
This should have read:
” It took me two years to get OVER the first woman I was serious with.”
Though, the original statement was technically true (sometimes beta orbiting does result in a landing).
I really appreciate your keeping things positive, and for my part, I will try to refrain from engaging in pointless debates that get everybody’s knickers in a twist.
By the way, I noticed in the Rational Male thread about looks that dragnet said his comments on that subject are getting deleted at Heartiste. I find that very odd – what do you think that’s about? Just curious.
Cool.
Hmmmm…I don’t know…was it on the subject of Looks versus Game?
This is one of those subjects guys will get really crazy debating with religious zeal on both sides. I’m reminded of the quip about academia that the more trivial the issue the louder the debate.
I think certain guys have a stake in believing one thing or another, particularly as it relates to Game being some magic elixir. They may even want to control/stifle the debate. Some guys may have some vested interest for either themselves or telling some other guy that the 5’4″ guy with super tight Game can compete with the 6’4″ guy built like Adonis Magic Game will trump everything else and get you the 9 hottie. Some guys might want to believe that, and other guys might want to sell that, and they can’t allow discussion that contradicts that. As you well know, and I agree with female attraction is quite variable so saying thing X trumps everything else for all women is nonsense.
@SW
“AKA the Silvio Berlusconi Strategy.”
Power must be the ultimate ,aphrodisiac because it clearly isn’t his looks that did it. What a national embarrassment (speaking as a part Italian American). He makes Bill Clinton look like a choir boy.
Sue: “Though as I said, I know a very nice group of beta guys who are at 10 as they approach their mid-20s.”
As XNY noted, those guys are the alphas – they’re the ones in the top 15 or 20%. You keep trying to paint the picture that they are typical guys, and it just doesn’t match the data.
Heh. Jason is gorgeous.
I hope Jason will sort of chime in and describe the difference between pre-Game gorgeous and post-Game gorgeous. I’d be curious if he always was a really good looking guy or if it is was something he developed into.
Jason, I think you said you were an engineer. Are you a natural introvert or extrovert (Myers-Brigg)?
Sorry, if I am being overly nosy, but your overall history/progression has a high level of curiousity for me.
OMG. Sue’s selling ‘em to the wolves. So much for wanting to pair up the low number people with other low number people….
“Thanks, Wudang. Good point about the drive of men to pass on their genes – it makes sense they would not wallow in sorrow for very long. Whereas we nurture our pain after a breakup…”
But only if we get a new girl. If we don`t, my theory goes at least, we will wallow more than you.
OffTheCuff
“As XNY noted, those guys are the alphas – they’re the ones in the top 15 or 20%. You keep trying to paint the picture that they are typical guys, and it just doesn’t match the data.”
Wouldn’t it depend on the circumstances? If it was all within relationships that either they or the woman hit NEXT. If they’re good looking that would make sense – able to pull women and either not able to keep them or making judgement calls to get rid of them.
I would say that the number is an indicator you should look at circumstances. An alpha WILL have numbers – A beta may or may not. But while a beta may have above average numbers, they won’t be skyrocketed unless they’re slumming. At 10 they’re just above average.
@ Charm:
No, I think that’s great. I’m the same way, in the sense that I’ve always had a list of mid-range and long term goals. It amazes me that so many people live in the “now” without any cognizance of where they’re going in life vs where they’d like to end up.
However, I realize I do need to add new plans to that list. Right now I’m a bit stagnant. At the ripe old age of 27 (haha!) I’ve crossed off quite few big items off my list and it’s time to dream bigger.
Anyway, kudos for learning from other peoples’ mistakes! I’d rather not follow others down a path if there’s negative outcomes in doing so either. It reminds of, how when people go, “Man, this taste awful.. Here, try it!” I always say no! Why would I want to try it after knowing it tastes bad?
LoB – “Isn’t the point of relationship game* to make sure that those circumstances never occur? Of realizing those chances are a reality and making sure they don’t happen?”
Absolutely. But as a man that knows his game will never be top tier, I would like to think that it will take far more to “turn” my SO than a guy with better game. Otherwise it isn’t an IF situation, but a WHEN situation, as in: shemwillmchear when she encounters a man with better game. I don’t know about you, but if that is indeed the reality then we should all give up on marriage.
@Ramble
It was just one girl, whittling away at her number to get it from 36 to 6. The women in my groups are very open about their numbers – they happily shared the truth with Kate Bolick, for example. I’m not saying they wouldn’t fudge the number if asked by a guy. A few have numbers so low they’re a bit sheepish about it.
The rule of thumb in the manosphere seems to be multiply whatever a woman tells you by three. Personally, I think that is pithy but inaccurate. There are no rules of thumb on this question.
“shiksa goddess.”
Whats that?
A shiksa’s a non Jewish girl into Jewish guys.
Linksys – “Ted, are you saying that whether or not your attached, if you want to go out on a date with someone else, you will?
Of course people have 2 set of rules when they are single or attached. When you are not in a monogamous relationship you are not required to be faithful to someone.”
No, I’m saying whether I am with someone or not, I don’t have sex outside of a relationship. When I am not in a relationship, I remain faithful to my ideals and the next woman I partner with. Yes, I remain faithful to a woman I may not have met yet. I call it a moral code. I have always lived my life being faithful to my SO, even when I didn’t have one at the time.
Whoops, just realized Jason doesn’t want the pics up. So you’ll have to take my word for it. He is built. Fantastic chest and arms in a bathing suit shot. The other shot is him in a white T and jeans, hands in pockets, with about an inch of his J.Crew boxers showing in between. His face is chiseled, the guy could model. In fact, maybe he is a J.Crew model.
I can tell you right now this kid was BMOC. He had women in rotation at all times. I’m sure most of them would have not very nice things to say about him. Lots of pumps and dumps. But if any guy could pull low number girls for a ONS, this guy could.
Bottom line: If Jason wants a hot babe with a low count, he can get her, provided he goes out and finds her. My guess is there were plenty of women in college who would have avoided him with his douchey rep (I’m sure he didn’t care), but now he’s in a new city, he can probably get just about anyone he wants. (Do I recognize him from Karen Owen’s Powerpoint presentation?)
That’s my honest opinion. No compromise.
FYI: A shiksa is a Gentile girl. A shiksa goddess is a beautiful Gentile girl.
Be less concerned with a woman’s lay-count and more concerned with the emotional associative impact the last Alpha had on her.
Which do you believe is the more common scenario:
A woman leaving her her stable, loving, dependable, but uninspiring and predictable beta nice-guy boyfriend/husband for an exciting, but erratic Alpha bad boy she hopes will change for her,
or
A woman leaving her erratic, but exciting self-concerned, a-hole Alpha lover for a stable, supportive, loving and considerate beta whom she hopes will eventually become more exciting and Alpha?
You see, women don’t leave Alpha jerks for nice betas. Even when they’ve moved on the never really leave them. Circumstances in her relationship with an Alpha may exceed her tolerance (or his) to remain in that relationship, but she never sees the beta as the option worth leaving an Alpha for. Women never willingly trade down. Enduring a jerk’s behavior is still preferable to enduring a beta’s dutiful adorations.
That’s not to say women don’t find themselves with betas after an LTR with an Alpha, they just didn’t opt for it.
Bonus questions:
After having been involved in an LTR with both a beta nice guy and an Alpha jerk, which one is a woman more likely to fantasize about later?
How many men actively seek out sexual relationships and correspond, unsolicited, with incarcerated female criminals notorious for violent murders?
@Megaman
My brother is an Italian citizen, and he suffers from Berlusconi Derangement Syndrome.
@Iggles, I’m glad dating worked out well for you. I guess I never did give it much of a chance. But hey, your mileage may vary.
I hear that. I don’t know, they’re sweet, and boyish, and cute, and they’ve been orbiting Little Miss HUS for at least five years. They don’t pull girls easily, it’s more like they get lucky sometimes. And also, this is a big factor – they sometimes hook up with girls in the friend group (not LMHUS). Most have had an LTR or two, but mostly they prefer to stay single. I don’t know what to tell the CDC – I’ve known these boys for many years, and I hear the stories.
@ Susan
Yeah, it is work! A lot of it comes down to luck too. You meet quite a few duds and some flakes here and there. But I honestly don’t see how the two of us would have met! We don’t run in the same circles. Nor work in the same industry. Or frequented the same places, haha! I live in NYC where I see hundreds of strangers every day. We might have been like two ships passing in the night, who knows. I don’t even remember how I came across his profile, but I messaged him first. It all worked itself out from there.
@Mike C
Jason said he’s an 8, but I would assume he was one of the best looking guys on campus. All he needs to do is not be supplicating. The notion that he couldn’t get traditional dates with girls is very difficult for me to understand. I would think that would be every girl’s dream.
IDK, maybe he was a late bloomer – it’s hard for me to imagine there was a time when he didn’t feel secure about his looks.
Sue’s smitten. Maybe there’s something to what the manosphere guys say. lol
No, I was kidding around to convey how good looking he is. I would chase the wolf from the door. Although he does genuinely sound as if he is considering abandoning his player ways. Kinda like you, JM.
Mmhm. Chase being the operative word. lol
When they’re more likely to be narcissists. Which brings us back to the chicken and egg question re female attraction to narcissists.
Sue,
I don’t have a problem with Jason. He sounds like a decent guy. I was just teasing.
Linksys -”Wow. You are pretty lofty. Got a brother?”
Sorry, I am an only child. Probably why I never learned to share. :-p
@Rollo
Jason is an alpha, as was her last BF. So it’s an alpha on alpha competition. What are the rules for that?
Also, women with a high proclivity for chasing dopamine will take “exciting/dangerous” every time. The women who propose to men on Death Row are the extreme exmaple. More emotionally stable women are more likely to choose “enjoyable to be with/good with children and dogs.” In my view, the former is not attractive, the latter is very attractive.
VD–
Sure, she’s brilliant. My problem is that she is often quoted in the ‘sphere as the female whose perspective validates Game, when she is really more representative of androgynes (a subject she embraces) or men, than she is of women. I can find nothing in her that I feel represents women–and I’m a fairly masculine-minded woman.
On a more humorous note, I once shared with my DH a piece written by Paglia in which she describes a fantasy game where a woman suggested to her male partner that they pretend she has a penis and he has a vagina. My DH paused, looked puzzled and asked, “Where do you go from there?” Where, indeed? That’s the sort of thing I think you can depend of Paglia for. Yeah, it’s edgy, but where do you go from there? I guess, if you ae awoman, you have to grow a penis.
Thanks for the shiksa godess clarification, now what does BMOC mean?
@Susan “The rule of thumb in the manosphere seems to be multiply whatever a woman tells you by three. Personally, I think that is pithy but inaccurate. There are no rules of thumb on this question.”
This question was answered. The woman should have much less than the man. That’s why some suggest women’s numbers are underreported.
@Jason “If traditional dating is that hard for a guy like me, who claims to be able to get women, I can only imagine how difficult it is for the nice guys out there.”
You’re talking about two different things here. I’m a nice guy. I don’t get ONS and I don’t try. It wasn’t for me before and it will never be for me in the future. That’s why the only thing available for me is traditional dating and LTRs.
To change your strategy means you have to change yourself. You can’t suddenly leave the player life and go LTR in one step. You can’t have one foot in the door ready to jump into the bar scene when you fail to find a nice girl. It doesn’t work that way.
I said the same things before for women who seek LTRs. Women need to have the potential of being great wives. They need to have some domestic interests and skills like cooking and cleaning. They need to be selfless.
If you want to be married in the future, you need to change your head, your behavior, and your long-term interests. Find a different crowd. Get different friends. Demonstrate you want something different.
The problem with Rollo’s comparison is that he’s pitting EXCITING “alphas” (whatever the fuck they are) with UNINSPIRING “betas” (again, whatever…). Of course the exciting guy is more likely to win over the uninspiring one.
Rollo has apparently married a woman that finds 2-dimensional “bad boys” inspiring and real 3-dimensional men with productive and enriching lives uninspiring. He’s got a rotten egg and rather than admit it, he’s going to set out to prove that all women are shallow leeches who feed off of bad boy excitement.
And I mean that in the least confrontational way possible.
@Jason, on the last page you said you didn’t go with blackout drunk girls, and I believe that. My point to Mike C is that “good girls” who do same night lays with a stranger they just met probably have had their inhibitions lowered by having a few drinks — tipsy but not drunk.
Personally I always refused to have even a single sip of alcohol, and drink nothing but water (I turn down caffeine and soda, too). It’s just a totally different world that I have no experience with at all.
I also lived in the Chicago area for almost a decade, from 17 until 25 (met my husband at 25). So it’s not like I lacked access to bars and clubs. I heard they were fun, and lots of other girls I knew were going, but I just didn’t ever go to any.
And yeah, I’m very risk-averse and an outlier for sure. I never went on an upside down roller coaster until last year, at a company picnic in an amusement park, and the only reason I went is because my husband made me feel safe. He’s also the one who taught me how to ride a bike, swim without flotation aid and handle firearms.
@Mike C
The notion that he couldn’t get traditional dates with girls is very difficult for me to understand. I would think that would be every girl’s dream.
Yeah, strange isn’t it?
I have a theory why a guy who looks like Jason is much more successful going the hook-up route versus any sort of proper traditional courting/dating, but I don’t think you would like it. 
@leapofabeta, I’m in mass.but am originally from the Midwest. I usually smile at everyone, and am no longer perturbed at the mannerisms here…….such as having nasty notes on my car.
The women who propose to men on Death Row are the extreme exmaple.
I think the women who get together with inmates have som esort of bizare combination of extreme dopamine needs and are emotionally totally fucked up both of which is quite evident. An overlooked third factor I think is that they desire control. They get to get with the most dangerous taboo man imagineable and they get to do that under the most controled conditions imagineable. He is in jail after all. The women that do not desire the control but are otehrwise equal would rather find a thug outisde of prision and be his “girlfriend” with the risks involved with that.
Jason
I just read what you said here from Jonny’s comment.
I think you need to find social situations where you can get to know girls w/o dating first. My girlfriend is actually the sister of a friend I went to high school with. I reconnected with him when I became single and ended up hanging out with him a few times. Met the sister (who I hadn’t seen since I was 18 and she was 15), we hung out together a bit, flirted, and took it from there.
That said, I’d met a few girls over the summer using day game while I was still trying on the whole player thing, and went from # close to a couple of low key, casual dates. I wasn’t looking to have relationships with them, but I can see things happening that way if you wanted it. If you’re as good looking as Sue says, then I don’t see why that wouldn’t work. I had a pretty good “close” rate (I hate talking in terms like that), and of the girls I got numbers from and pursued, I never had a girl think it strange when I asked her to hang out afterward. Anyway, something to think about.
I don’t have time to get involved in this conversation, but upon skimming, this made me laugh:
LOL! You know what they say about PA… It’s Philly and Pittsburgh on either end, with Alabama in between. And I’m from the Alabama part.
Wudang, a BMOC is a Big Man on Campus.
I was under the impression that for men it took longer to get over a LTR than it did for a woman. But maybe that is only the case when he does not find someone new. Maybe when he finds someone new having renewed access to spread his seed makes him get over it very fast.
I honestly think it varies by individual. Sometimes it appears that women get over things faster, but I think that is because women have often left the relationship emotionally long before they leave it physically. However, I’ve seen dumped women become quite hysterical or depressed.
Men OTOH can take being dumped very hard but still run out and use the next woman as an emotional band-aid. I said upthread that I prefer men capable of LTRs to players. The one caveat is that I prefer them after they’ve healed and moved on. A man, fresh from a breakup may well use and hurt the next woman.
Thanks J
@Mike C
Probably not, but I’m all about the free expression of ideas.
It occurs to me that socio-economic status plays a role in people’s sexual histories and their attitudes towards sex. My girlfriend lived at home with her folks, worked days teaching yoga to help pay for evening classes. She avoided the campus hook up scene and went to school with an older crowd (evening classes were filled with people returning to school for 2nd careers, etc…).
She had less time for “play” and, having to pay her own way through school (her family couldn’t afford to send her), she took her studies more seriously.
“How many men actively seek out sexual relationships and correspond, unsolicited, with incarcerated female criminals notorious for violent murders?”
Susan Atkins got married twice in jail. There are others.
Let’s not forget Bambi (Lawrencia Bembenek). She had one private detective who adored her trying to prove her innocence, but became engaged to a guy who busted her out of jail. After her release from jail, she married a forest ranger. In terms of male attention, she did a lot better than many free women. Then there’s Patty Hearst and Amanda Knox….
@Wudang
Ah, this reminds me of a scene from Jane Austen’s Persuasion.
Captain Harville: No, no, it is not man’s nature. I will not allow it to be more man’s nature than woman’s to be inconstant and forget those they do love, or have loved. I believe the reverse. I believe in a true analogy between our bodily frames and our mental; and that as our bodies are the strongest, so are our feelings; capable of bearing most rough usage, and riding out the heaviest weather.’
Anne: ‘Your feelings may be the strongest,but the same spirit of analogy will authorise me to assert that ours are the most tender. Man is more robust than woman, but he is not longer lived; which exactly explains my view of the nature of their attachments. Nay, it would be too hard upon you, if it were otherwise. You have difficulties, and privations, and dangers enough to struggle with. You are always labouring and toiling, exposed to every risk and hardship. Your home, country, friends, all quitted. Neither time, nor health, nor life, to be called your own. It would be hard, indeed’ (with a faltering voice), ‘if woman’s feelings were to be added to all this.’
Captain Wentworth, the man Anne has never stopped loving, overhears and writes her this:
“Tell me not that I am too late, that such precious feelings are gone for ever. I offer myself to you again with a heart even more your own than when you almost broke it, eight years and a half ago. Dare not say that man forgets sooner than woman, that his love has an earlier death. I have loved none but you. Unjust I may have been, weak and resentful I have been, but never inconstant.”
Jane Austen knew everything, everything, about human nature.
She had less time for “play” and, having to pay her own way through school (her family couldn’t afford to send her), she took her studies more seriously.
This and a strong set of goals keep women off the carousel. As I’ve said before, the nice are more often found in the library than in the club.
Probably not, but I’m all about the free expression of ideas.
Instead of me saying what I think….I’m genuinely curious what you think. You’ve seen the pictures, you’ve got the resume…
Assuming he is being truthful, and I can’t see any motive to lie about this particular item, why do you think he has been more successful carrying on with the “hookiup” culture of college instead of a more old school, tradtional dating approach?
Jesus, I also lived with mom and dad until I was 25. Glad to know I’m not the only one that didnt leave at 18.
but I still managed to do some regrettable things sexually despite being under mommys control. I’m grateful that I was able to focus on my education and save money to get a job opportunity to help me escape home. Being independent was when I decided to endorse healthier views on sex.
WarmWoman,
In your case, with your unhealthy family, it wasn’t “despite” but “because of” being under your mom’s control.
I left at 18, but if things were different at home, I would’ve stayed through college. I didn’t end up living on campus anyway, and I was only a subway ride from school at my parents.
Yea, Linksys is FemEx. I was going to call it before, but I let it go.
Mike C,
Do you really think that bars and clubs are the best places to meet women with values who want a relationship?
If you are correct, then the female orgasm machinery varies dramatically in individuals. According to women who ejaculate, the orgasm is many times better than a clitoral orgasm. Has anyone come up with an explanation for this as an intermittent feature in the population?
I have heard of Skene’s glands before and can verify reading about Lindsay is talking about.
The basic “floor plan” for fetuses is female. At some point the Y chromosone kicks in and testosterone causes the “female” fetus to become male. Most of the male structure is homologous with corresponding female structures. Perhaps in women who receive more maternal testosterone, the tissue that would become the prostate in the male becomes well developed Skene’s glands. In women who receive less testerone, the Skene’s gland either don’t develop well or wither. On a similar note, did you know that men have tiny uteri in their urethas? They don’t develop in the absence of estrogen.
Thanks Susan. I might take you up on that offer some day as I only go for shiksas anyways haha. I just say NO to Jewish girls.
WW–I stuck around after 18, left, came back, left again. You are not alone.
Lindsay. That’s true . I think some women are naturally weary of men that give them that crazy I want to rip your clothes off feeling. It’s because they might feel the guy isn’t ltr material. I’ve heard women stereotype handsome hunks as jerks and players. Not that it’s always true. So a hookup is their way of getting a taste of the hot man and not getting hurt through investing in a ltr
Sue: “Most have had an LTR or two, but mostly they prefer to stay single.”
Preferring variety over monogamy, when one has option of either, is an alpha abundance mindset. They are probably lesser alphas.
I actually had more friends that stayed home than left at 18. I didn’t move on to bigger and better things. I ended up crashing with friends or falling asleep between Ditmars Blvd and Coney Island on the N train until I had money for an apartment.
@Jesus
I’ve always been outspoken against the idea of “bar girls.” That cute girl you see at the library reading? She was probably out at a bar over the weekend.
Maybe it’s different in some parts of the country, but everywhere I’ve ever lived I’d venture to guess 90%+ of people in the 21-25 age range are going to bars fairly regularly. Even those who don’t drink alcohol. It’s just a social function.
Now I also don’t think going out to bars means having to get sloppy drunk and hooking up with strangers, either.
FWIW, I definitely agree with you that friends of friends etc. is a much better method to meeting someone for a relationship. But I don’t blame any guy for not wanting to go that route, though. These days it’s usually a one way ticket to getting friendzoned.
Mike C,
Do you really think that bars and clubs are the best places to meet women with values who want a relationship?
No, there are probably many places with a higher percentage of women who value long-term relationships. That said, “good girls” go to bars as well. When I was bouncing, to me there was a big difference between the girls you would only see on Friday or Saturday night versus the ones you would see in there 3-4 times a week often on weekdays closing the place down.
The point is well taken that the typical girl hanging out in a bookstore is different from the girl clubbing 4 times a week. But sometimes the story is different from the outside cover as well.
@ WW
Haha. Interesting. I was able to ‘handle’ that type of behavior as it were, I just didn’t enjoy it at all. I wanted to live in a place that added to my happiness and life. Not one where I was happy ‘in spite of’ the location. I have enough other things to deal with that that didn’t need to be one of them.
Plus theatre out here pays better and comes with a cheaper cost of living. Win/win!
@Mike C
I would first refer you to my post where I came out as a FFB (Former Fat Boy) until I hit about 16, where I dropped around 35 or 40 lbs in 8 months. While I was always athletic, I wasn’t always good looking, and I went into hs being fat, so I already had an established social presence even after I dropped the weight. It was never negative, but it’s not like I went into hs as some heartthrob that all the girls wanted. Far from it.
Probably by the time I was a senior in hs I came into my own a lot more, but while I was popular and good looking at this point, I still didn’t do very well with girls. I talked about this a few hundred posts back as well. Game helped me tremendously in this aspect, as I’m naturally inquisitive and I don’t want things to just work, I want to know why they work as well.
Yes, I’m an engineer, and I would lean more towards extrovert, but it really depends on my mood. I’m not just one of those bubbly people who always seems to want to talk to someone, and I hate hate hate ‘water cooler’ small talk. That doesn’t mean I don’t like shooting the shit with people, but it has to have some substance behind it for me. I also haven’t taken that personality test, but in the chemistry.com personality test, my primary type was director, and secondary was explorer, which didn’t really surprise me.
Jason, you expressed some doubt earlier about making the relationship work and about keeping your alpha frame long term. I think your odds can be good, especially since you have access to the tools of the manosphere. The problem for most alphas is that although they have their instincts and experience and some theories they have come up with based on their experience, they don`t have the type of “complete overview and detailed understanding that is available here. It helps to have access to discussions of every type of shit test there is etc.
I would read everything at Athol Kays site. His take on relationship game is extremely good and effective. I think his advice is what a lot of naturals are missing. They often either gets betaized or they provide too little comfort and beta traits or despite being alphas they are still not good at actually managing and leading the relationship.
I would also read David Deidas books, especialy the way of the superior man. He is great for deep inner game and for a deep understanding of game and relationship game.
I would also recomend meditation and qigong. The reason is because it makes you outcome independent at a much deeper level than it is possible to become by any other means. You mentioned your physically unattractive friend that still got laid by hot women because he had such an incredible frame and nothing ever could really get to him. Long term meditation develops that. You get a deep sense of equanimity that alows you to handle extremely harsh outside conditions without it really affecting you that much. If you go to Shinzen Youngs website and look in his article section you will find one article about equanimity and one called the pain processing algorythm or something like that. They explain very well how meditation helps you develop that outcome independence. It really is the ultimate inner game tool and will help with your worry about loosing your frame. If you do get into it be sure to also try standing meditation (Zhan Zhuang). It has extra benefits when it comes to developing alpha traits.
I would also take note of the fact that you are likely higher in sex rank than her as you have bedded better looking women, you are very good looking, you have a very good education and prospects (in a crappy economy which makes this more important), AND you have game. Over time your rank will likely increase somewhat while hers will go down some.
(The ladies should take note of the fact that although he said she was very good looking she was not the best looking one but had various personal qualitites that made her win out over the others)
Couples were both have a higher education have about half the divorce risk of those without. High income also has an independent protective effect on divorce.
One of the most usuefull relationship tools IMO is to gradually introduce your girl to the matrix and make her conciously aware of the gender dynamic in relationships and manosphere advice on how to work with this. This is helpfull because as you can see arround the manopshere the women are able to use this insight to improve upon the areas that actually do matter instead of putting effort into following dumb advice from Oprah, they aslo reduce bad behavior and learn to limit harsh and needles shit testing (but leave a more healthy amount and healthy types of shit tests as they are natural and unavoidable). Red Pill insights also help them take responsibility for bad dynamics in various ways and help to work things back to where they actualy work as evidenced by women at Athols blog who have helped do just that. My meditation teacher, who also teaches workshops on relationships and basically discovered the red pill by himself (for example what a shit test is and how to pass it) before the manopshere excisted, has taught lots of couples to successfully communicate about the matrix and use it to get their relationship back on track and the sexual tension back whenever it goes astray.
I am actually more concerned about you leaving or somewhere long down the road cheating than the other way arround. I think if the relationship lasts 15-20 years the risk will eventually be higher on your side. I think cheating can be reduced a lot by looking into the thought process that typically ocurs and work with it as one does in cogntive behavioral therapy preemtively. When people deceide to cheat they make all sorts of rationalizations and asumptions. By learning to look specifically at those and criticising them it is easier to resist them rather than just having a strong attitude that cheating is wrong. It is much the same as using cognititive therapy tools on resisting drugs, overeating etc.
Good girls definitely go to bars now and then. I didn’t mean to imply that they never do. My guess though would be that the highest quality girls try to avoid the “meat markets.” Also, that the highest quality girls don’t drink to the point that fucking a stranger would be acceptable. And usually hang around a group of friends who wouldn’t allow that to happen even if they had gotten that drunk.
But I do know women that have never been into the bar scene because 1. drinking costs too much, and 2. they don’t want to drink on someone else’s tab. Not surprisingly, these girls aren’t promiscuous by anyone’s standards (except maybe Dalrock’s…?).
+1 on meditation.
Susan
Keep in mind I sent you some of the more flattering pictures of myself. I really do think I’m an 8 in everyday life, as most of the time my hair won’t be done, I’m not tan, etc. I’m also only 6’0″, which isn’t short by any means, but ideally I would like to be a bit taller (funny thing is I have six uncles over 6’2″, so I kind of got the short gene).
And I never said I couldn’t get traditional dates, but it seemed like I had to pull teeth to get them (idk why, probably because of social norms now) and when I did girls always seemed to think it weird. And yes, I was a late bloomer, as explained above.
Jason,
Maybe the way you approach first dates is off… too formal in the asking, or too elaborate in the planning…. idk
Mike C
I’d like to hear it. I’ve never really heard this discussed before.
Jason,
If I had to guess, I’d say Mike is thinking that you trigger short term mating cues in women. They peg you as “fling” from the start, so trying to transition to relationship is hard. In their minds, they’re thinking, but no, you’re just the candy to tide myself over till something more serious.
I don’t agree with that, but that’s my guess about what Mike was going to say.
@Mike C
My guess was that you were going to say that women see him and their bodies tell them to get pregnant by him immediately.
Other reasons might be:
1. They see Jason and know he’s got to be a player in this SMP. As such, he has no need to ask women out on dates. If he does so, they wonder, “What’s wrong with this guy? Is he lame and supplicating even though he’s good looking?”
2. They figure their odds of locking Jason down are slim, so why go there. A quick bang gets you access to those pecs, and you can pretend you didn’t want to date him anyway. This would hold for girls less attractive than he is, but he’s said clearly he doesn’t compromise on looks – he can pull hot girls even for casual.
That’s all I got. In summary, asking for dates = beta and pump & dump = alpha. Am I right?
JM,
You make a good point, but I find myself hard up on time to consistently pursue these social situations outside of what I would normally do. The activities that I enjoy, competitive sports, working out, playing poker, going to movies, etc. don’t exactly lend themselves to an abundance of approachable women. Maybe I’m just making excuses, idk.
And daygame is not a terrible thought I guess. I have never really gone that route, and I wouldn’t be afraid to approach someone, but I wouldn’t be surprised if I was a little rusty to start.
@Jesus
Re SES, more findings from Vox’s data:
The comment count has just decreased from 749 (the highest I saw) to 742
whassup?
@Suz,
These women are probably not emotionally stable then,..?
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/horrible-reactions-to-chris-brown-at-the-grammys
@Wudang
Well thought out and engaging post. Thanks for your time. I’ll definitely look into those names you dropped and see what I can pick up from them.
@ Jason
I managed to see your photos. Not bad at all. You’re cute, but I am going to be “that girl” who says she really isn’t into a lot of muscles on men. Don’t let that be a deterrent though. There are plenty of women out there who cream themselves over nice biceps. They probably outnumber women like me. I guarantee it.
Precisely why this shy guy is losing points with me by the second and the pro-active initiator is seeming more and more attractive
Err that would be different for me. I love shy guys they aren’t keeping me guessing on purpose but their nature is to be shy. So I would be more interested on the shy guy than the pro-active guy, but that is my own quirk, I guess.
JM,
I went after you a few threads ago for this and… dun dun dun, I’m back again.
I’ve been following you on this line of thinking for awhile, and to be honest, I’m still scratching my head. On one hand, you seem to be saying a girl who has full P in V ONSs is not relationship material and has no standards. Okay, I’m willing to entertain that thought. On the other, you’re broadening the scope of your categorization here when you say things about women who “feed off of easy validation from inebriated strangers.” That’s not sex, that’s any girl who goes to a bar and feels good when a guy offers to buy her a drink.
And the problem is, when you make your “bad for relationships” pile that broad, you write off a whole lotta girls. Normally I’d let it go, but you’re giving advice to other dudes here, and I’m trying to figure out whether it’s good advice.
If you’ve followed the story, you know my BF and I essentially met in a bar. That doesn’t mean our relationship sucks, or that I like him for “shallow” reasons. It seems like the bar thing isn’t your scene. That’s cool. But I’m trying to figure out why you’re extrapolating that experience to the rest of the male population, and claiming that a guy who meets a girl in a bar is more likely to end up with a shallow chick.
Having a “bad for relationships” pile isn’t inherently a bad thing, but I feel like there are more accurate standards by which to filter out these ladies.
Vox, what are the numbers on cheating? And speaking of numbers I think because of your background in economics a great couple of posts on your blog could be to look closer at all sorts of statistics on marriage and the SMP. We need more precision and I think you could suply that precision.
I’ve seen various studies and they’re really pretty poor, in my opinion. It seems like half the time, it’s a ridiculous survey of 30 students at the academic’s university. To be honest, I’d probably place more trust in a poll of the readers here. With Susan’s permission, I may put together a ProProfs poll that we can jointly link to from HUS, AG, and perhaps MMSL as well to see if we can get some substantive data worth crunching. Since you’ve requested it, I’ll be sure to include some questions on cheating. I think it would be interesting to learn how many times people cheated on their boyfriends and girlfriends and subsequently went on to cheat during their marriages.
Sure, she’s brilliant. My problem is that she is often quoted in the ‘sphere as the female whose perspective validates Game, when she is really more representative of androgynes (a subject she embraces) or men, than she is of women. I can find nothing in her that I feel represents women–and I’m a fairly masculine-minded woman.
I concur. La Paglia is totally useless as a representative of anything, but especially her sex. She is primarily of value for her pure intellect and her depth of classical knowledge. Unfortunately, I think her fame and her fixation on pop culture caused her to waste her potential; she wanted to be seen as the heir to Susan Sontag, which I always felt was a sadly trivial goal. And rather difficult to do for someone who didn’t want to bother with novels.
I’m totally the same way! It makes me insecure to not know where I stand. I hate feeling that way and flaky guys make me lose interest fast. My boyfriend was very upfront about how he felt about me and it made me like him more — not less!
My hubby the same but then traveling 3000 miles to meet me, he really had no many arguments to say he was not serious about us
Haha, I love that idea! Let me put in a request for t-shirt slogans. If anyone has any ideas, shoot them to me. I’ll even pick a winner and give a prize.
I had sex with a guy who acted like an asshole, but I knew he did it because he wanted to hide his nice side till the right woman (ME) came allong, it turns out that he was really an asshole.
Maybe I’ve just been looking for the holy grail. The good girl that I flip one night cuz she is powerless to resist me and who I also fall crazy for. Can’t blame a guy for wishing haha.
Men already shared that stupid fantasy here, is like the one about changing a man with the power of their vagina’s. Welcome to the unrealistic club, is crowded here so be careful.
I don’t understand how any person can live by two different sets of rules:
1. How I behave when I’m single.
2. How I behave when I’m attached.
Cosign this.
@Iggles
Hubby and I met the same way. Of course I like to fantasize that if we had meet in different circumstances we had find a way to each others heart’s somehow.
@Mike C
My guess was that you were going to say that women see him and their bodies tell them to get pregnant by him immediately.
Other reasons might be:
1. They see Jason and know he’s got to be a player in this SMP. As such, he has no need to ask women out on dates. If he does so, they wonder, “What’s wrong with this guy? Is he lame and supplicating even though he’s good looking?”
2. They figure their odds of locking Jason down are slim, so why go there. A quick bang gets you access to those pecs, and you can pretend you didn’t want to date him anyway. This would hold for girls less attractive than he is, but he’s said clearly he doesn’t compromise on looks – he can pull hot girls even for casual.
@ Susan,
Are those listed reasons 1 and 2 what you think I thought, or what you actually think yourself? I was genuinely curious what you thought the actual dynamic at play was.
To the first sentence, I wasn’t going to say that. Is that a possibility on some primal, reptilian brain level? Maybe….I don’t know but I am NOT going to make that claim.
FWIW, your #1 is basically what I think. Essentially, in this SMP, a guy who by ALL outward appearances is very high value essentially communicates some kind of lower value by following the traditional process. Some of the women are basically asking “what is wrong with this picture”.
@leapofabeta
How long have you been in MA? I felt like people were cold and too loud at first, but I don’t feel that anymore. My social life here is more active than it was in the friendly midwest. That’s probably b/c I live alone and don’t answer to anyone.
@Jesus “I ended up crashing with friends or falling asleep between Ditmars Blvd and Coney Island on the N train until I had money for an apartment.”
That sounds rough, but that’s also why I was hesitant to leave abruptly. My friend left her home (similar to mine) at age 18, and said how she had to dodge pimps, drug dealers and creepy landlords that wanted sex in exchange for rent.
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