Yesterday’s first “hill climb” in spinning class was accompanied by the song Got You by The Flys. They were a one-hit wonder and this was it in 1998. As I was pedaling against heavy resistance, I felt inspired by the lyric:
I think you’re smart
You sweet thing
Tell me your sign
I’m dying here
Smart girls are often dismissed by guys – especially by guy bloggers. It can get a girl down, you know? So the song made me feel good, and I thought I would share it.
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM_OWaItNJM
Hey what’s the point of this
Hey what’s your favorite song
Maybe we could hum along
I think you’re smart
You sweet thing
Tell me your name
I’m dying here
Ooh got you where I want you
Ooh got you where I want you
Oh yeah
Hey maybe just a smile
Oh hey do you know that I can dance
Could we talk for a while
I think you’re smart
You sweet thing
Tell me your sign
I’m dying here
Ooh got you where I want you
Ooh got you where I want you
Oh yea
Ooh got you where I want you
I want you bad
Got you where I want you.
Boo. He’s a player. He’s opening some girl and he’s laying some line on her. He knows that girls like to hear that they seem smart, so that’s what he feeds her.
I was curious about this, so I did some research and found this report from some guy:
I heard back in 1998-1999 on the radio where these guys were interviewed by a local morning show DJ.
The inspiration for the song came from one of the band members being at a bar and watching a guy trying to pick up a woman. The guy looked over at the band member, winked, and said “I’ve got her where I want her”.
It’s still a good song, and it’s great for hill climbing on an indoor cycle.
I haven’t lost all hope. Yesterday reader Zach shared this about his girlfriend of five months:
After 2.5 years of one night stands and booty calls, which, dont get me wrong, were a lot of fun, I wanted the things you can get from a relationship. I didnt settle for one, as my girlfriend is smoking hot, smart, and fun. I held out through months of dating to make sure I had a girl worth committing to.
So don’t give up, smart girls. Spend time with guys who mention early on that your intelligence is a turnon and stick around to prove it. They’re out there, and you don’t want a mimbo anyway.
Here’s a tip: If the guy is an extraverted type who says that on a cold approach, laugh in his face and turn away.
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I’ve always thought the “guys are intimidated by smart girls” trope was bogus.
I love brainy, curious women.
(Anecdotal, I know, but) Most guys I know (myself included) are more embarrassed by dumb girlfriends than smart ones.
Unless “smart” is a code word for “fat”, I don’t know of any guy who would dismiss a woman because of her brain power.
“I’ve always thought the ‘guys are intimidated by smart girls’ trope was bogus.”
Exactly, that’s just a coping mechanism that chicks use to maintain their denial about their low SMV.
What women need to accept is that, just like men don’t care about what degree or profession they have, they also don’t care much about a woman’s IQ. It’s neither here nor there; a woman can be as sharp as a tack,and that’s fine, as long as she isn’t a KNOW-IT-ALL. And she can be a little dim (which can be endearing), but not as dumb as a box of rocks (because that’s annoying). That leaves an acceptable range that is quite broad – which is actually GOOD for women. One of my best friends is a physicist that does research for the DOE, and for years maintained that any woman of his “only has to be smart enough to understand what he is saying” – which is a brilliant insight. So for him, a women still needs to be of above-average intelligence so she can at least grasp when he alludes to chaos theory or self-replicating systems during the course of a conversation. You don’t want blank stares when you talk to your girlfriend/wife.
Women crave love, but what most men really need is respect. Which is why women need a guy at least as smart as them: it’s very difficult to respect someone stupider than you.
I think there are more nerdy men who’d desire a nerdy woman than there are nerdy women.
Maybe that’s more specific than what “smart” here is supposed to mean (define “smart”?), but for the more general stuff, yeah, “the guys are intimidated by smart girls trope is bogus.”
Also, paradoxically it’s more likely for two high-IQ people to be intellectually incompatible. If you have a high IQ, you tend to delve deeply into all sorts of obscure metaphysical, aesthetic, moral and political quandaries, and the chances that your resultant worldview will match up with a high-IQ spouse is small. You may even be diametrically opposed, which is a recipe for calamity. Imagine a couple where one is a devotee of Locke and the other an ardent admirer of Hobbes. Yet 90% of the population doesn’t even know who the fuck those guys ARE, let alone what they wrote about.
This is another reason why it’s good for the man to be older – he accumulates the necessary wisdom and his young wife can be guided/mentored by him into a mindset that is complimentary to his (or at least not antagonistic). If I were a believer, I would thank GOD everyday that my wife is not a liberal, like most white college-educated women are. But since she has been with me she has become acquainted with concepts like determinism and authors like Ayn Rand (though I know she will never read any of her books).
Smart is good. But the overlap with bossy and domineering is awfully high… way too high.
I prefer intellectual curiosity over intellectual horsepower.
A. is right. I’ve never had trouble attracting smart, nerdy guys who want smart, nerdy girls, and they do specifically look for girls with higher-than-average intelligence.
Though, I believe that nerdy guys are really looking for feminine appreciation of their nerdy masculine pursuits. I know exactly what goes into it when my husband’s raid group downs a hardmode fight, so my appreciation doesn’t come across as fake.
Meistergedanken is also right. A lot of smart people clash on ideas. My husband and I happened to have very similar tastes, ideologies and intellectual backgrounds, and where we differ (he’s in math programming whereas I’m in Web coding), the differences are not diametrically opposed, but rather complementary.
Our spiritual beliefs are also very aligned; neither of us is from a mainstream religious background, but we’re also not “real” atheists (they would mock us
).
Smart is great.
You’re smart enough to know money doesn’t grow on credit cards.
You’re smart enough to know the oil light means the car needs oil.
You’re smart enough to recognize there are other countries that exist outside your own.
You’re smart enough to be interested in how things work and why.
You’re smarter than a 5th grader.
That’s cool. Hell even blowing me away in math ability or any stem field is great. I love smarts in a woman. Life smarts, street smarts, education smarts, wisdom smarts.
It’s once those smarts become a ball peen hammer of confrontation that it ceases to be sexy and becomes belligerent and unwomanly. No guy wants to ‘compete’ aggressively intellectually, especially with a woman who’s leaps and bounds above his own level. It’s simply emasculation by a different name.
But lets not forget the golden rule.
It’s your long supple legs and touchable waist that will initially attract me to you, not the size of your MBA in Medieval Studies.
But that’s not the same thing as specifically selecting for it. Smart girls don’t want to be selected in spite of their intelligence or regardless. It’s a natural gift and we want to be valued for that gift.
By the way Susan, I like the title of this post.
So depressing.
“But that’s not the same thing as specifically selecting for it. Smart girls don’t want to be selected in spite of their intelligence or regardless. It’s a natural gift and we want to be valu”ed for that gift.”
Smart men want to be valued for their intelligence too, but you don’t see very many women chasing after them, do you?
“So depressing.”
Yeah, well, join the club. I’m conscientious, reliable, careful, rational and just. And women don’t seem to value any of those qualities. Fortunately I’m also funny and have great hair.
The world is grossly unfair. Shocking, I know.
@ Hope
You’re so vain you probably thought this post was about you. lol
j/k. song came to mind.
@ Susan
Try not to get so down. Men like smarts in a girl. It just doesn’t go as far as what women look for in men.
We want a girl to be opposite of stupid/retarded. We want them to be reliable, self-confident and able to do most basic functions in life. The more life/street smarts you got, awesome.
But as a rule, the appreciation of smarts ends much sooner. We don’t care so much if your IQ is 187 vs. high school education. So long as your not putting bluray’s in wrong side up into the player we love you just the same.
We can appreciate your smarts, we just won’t worship it the way you would in men. We value person-ability and snuggles over the ability to read ancient manuscripts and quote legal precedents.
Trust me.
Wow, I disagree. The fact that two people can even discuss Locke and Hobbes would signal to me that they might well belong together.
My husband and I can talk about Ayn Rand – I recently reread The Fountainhead. What would be the value in his “teaching” me about her beliefs if I wasn’t even intellectually curious enough to follow up by reading her myself? I guess that could work for a man who likes to hear himself talk, even if his audience is not particularly receptive.
Does she read, and tell you about the books she reads? I confess I don’t get how two people can connect when one is reading Proust and the other People.
I grew up socializing with mostly smart nerdy guys, and they all love smarts in girls. It’s just that the smarts also have to come in a good-looking package.
The joke goes:
- hot
- smart
- sane
pick two.
Some variations have “single” instead of sane. That part refers to personality, because usually the girls who are hot, smart, and have good personalities are not single for long.
Can you have one without the other?
>> “But that’s not the same thing as specifically selecting for it. Smart girls don’t want to be selected in spite of their intelligence or regardless. It’s a natural gift and we want to be valued for that gift.”
But conversely, it w0uld suck to be picked just for having “great personality”. People want to be appreciated for for their “whole package”. (Looks + personality.)
IME, most guys appreciate intelligence. They don’t appreciate girls who are condescending jerks about it though.
Emily
Bingo!
Well, I don’t expect men to chase IQ either, in terms of what gets them stiff. I think that when a guy like Zach cites his gf’s intelligence, he’s saying that he really values that quality in her and it makes her worthy of commitment.
Don’t misunderstand me – I’m not suggesting that men should be turned on by Marian the Librarian. Or that IQ is sexy. Though I find it interesting that men would use a line about a woman’s being smart to get into her pants – that’s an acknowledgement that women care about being smart, and don’t want to play dumb to be attractive.
I find that the way a woman flirts says a lot about her intelligence. I love intelligence in a way, btw.
What women need to accept is that, just like men don’t care about what degree or profession they have, they also don’t care much about a woman’s IQ. It’s neither here nor there; a woman can be as sharp as a tack,and that’s fine, as long as she isn’t a KNOW-IT-ALL.
This is completely true. None of my most intelligent friends, whose IQs range up to 175, are particularly concerned about the intelligence of their wives, so long as it is above average. However, they do care that she isn’t below average, simply because they really don’t want their children to be morons. (Being highly intelligent, they tend to understand the concept of regression to the mean.) Also, as I’ve noted in the past, highly intelligent women tend to be both difficult and unstable. The only woman I ever dated who was more intelligent than I was ended up in a mental institution two years later.
What most “smart” girls – hell, most smart people – don’t understand is that they are as far from the truly brilliant as the average are from them. And because they are so certain they are smart, they are a much bigger pain in the ass than average girls. Smart girls think its fun and cute and they get a sexual thrill out of challenging a superior male mind and getting intellectually dominated. The man doing it, on the other hand, is usually thinking “good grief, do we really have to do this again?”
Smart girls don’t want to be selected in spite of their intelligence or regardless. It’s a natural gift and we want to be valued for that gift.
That’s perfectly understandable, but how is it any different than Gamma males wanting to be valued by women for putting them on pedestals? Or Delta males wanting to be valued by women for their loyalty? Male attraction no more concerns what women want than female attraction concerns what men want. Depressing? Perhaps, but it’s just another red pill.
Just to be clear, the post isn’t about bitching, or trying to dictate what men should want. I want that understood, lest we go once again down the road of “women are trying to control what men like.”
I think there are guys out there who value female intelligence, and I’m encouraging smart women not to “settle” for guys who don’t. It’s really a positive message.
There really is a lot of anti- rhetoric about smart women at quite a few of the ‘sphere blogs. Like, gee, I’m over 120 I guess no guy will want me. I’m speaking to those women.
*I love intelligence in a *woman*, btw.
Intelligence may not make you want to jump someone’s bones, but it’s fun to have someone interesting to talk to afterwards. I definitely value it.
They are in college.
Susan, I agree that there are lots of men who don’t care about intelligence. Intelligence is not a priority for the vast majority of people located in the thick part of the bell curve. However, men who are toward the right end of the long tail have trouble relating to people who are in the middle.
It is said that leaders have trouble leading those who are more than 2 standard deviations from their own IQ, and vice versa with followers. A functional relationship simply will not develop very well between people with such a large gap. The same is true of platonic and romantic relationships.
Since there are more men with IQ 2 or more SD above the mean than women, a lot of these men feel very misunderstood, unappreciated, and like they can’t relate to most people — which is also why they often seem socially inept, misanthropic and aspergery. A woman who really can understand, appreciate and relate to him would stand out as a great exception.
I think one issue is that a lot of smart women are not very attracted to their male counterparts, who tend to be nerdy and socially awkward. Since I am a nerdy and socially awkward female (and not fat), I have had more relationship offers than I knew what to do with, so I think it is a matter of seeing and appreciating what’s right in front of us.
As the anonymous hackers say, “We are legion.” There really are a ton of them.
>> “I find that the way a woman flirts says a lot about her intelligence.”
True. (And the same applies to men as well.) Not all banter is created equal.
It’s not different. If female intelligence is a liability like the tendency to pedestalize, that’s the way it is. It is definitely a red pill that smart women have to take. Personally, I count several very smart men in my own social circle, and not one of them married a woman of “average” intelligence. In fact, they mostly mated assortatively with women in their own graduate programs or professions. I guess we’re oddballs – we find it interesting to discuss stuff like epigenetics at dinner parties.
A really smart man who marries a woman with lower intelligence is most likely to have kids less smart than he is. That’s his choice – he may not get morons but odds are he probably won’t have a son who is his intellectual equal, either.
I stand by my recommendation to women. Find a man who appreciates your keen mind. I’d rather remain single, for sure, than be with a man who found my intelligence a liability.
@Susan
Yes, intellectual curiosity is not dependent on intellectual horsepower.
Does she read, and tell you about the books she reads? I confess I don’t get how two people can connect when one is reading Proust and the other People.
I asked my wife, who is a smart woman more inclined to read Penman or Poe than either Proust or People, if she would like to discuss the books I am reading. She said it, quite reasonably, that it depends upon the book. When I asked if she’d like to discuss my current reading, her opinion was emphatic. “God no!”
I have to admit, the only person with whom I’ve ever discussed Proust was an iconoclastic VP at Capcom. I tried to talk him into pitching Remembrance of Things Past 3D: The Search for the Colder Side of the Pillow to the other executives, just to see what would happen. It is still the reigning champion in our decades-long brainstorming session for The Worst Game Idea Ever, narrowly edging out The Naked Lunch: The Video Game. (You should have seen the expression on the faces of the magazine editors as my partner was explaining, with a completely straight face, that the point system was based on the player’s ability to score heroin and underage boys.) I think we’re going to have to do a mobile version of the Proust game someday just so we can say we did.
Personally, I count several very smart men in my own social circle, and not one of them married a woman of “average” intelligence. In fact, they mostly mated assortatively with women in their own graduate programs or professions.
Not knowing anything about them, but based on what you’re saying, I would guess that the men probably average +1SD higher IQs than the women. Depending upon how well you know them, it might make for an interesting experiment to find out how they stand. In my experience, women are hypergamous with regards to intelligence too. And, of course, you already know that there is a lot of ground between “very smart” and “average intelligence”.
Very possible. BTW, I’m not really talking about 2+ SDs here. I’m really just talking about women who one might say, “She’s a smart girl” about. And I’m definitely not suggesting that bossy and domineering women are pleasant to be around, regardless of their intelligence.
I’m wondering if the female red pill regarding intelligence isn’t all that different from the male red pill regarding “niceness”.
Intelligence is a positive quality, but that trait alone doesn’t entitle you to an attractive partner.
What happens if a woman is intellectually curious but unable to understand the subject? What are the odds she would be curious, or drawn to, something she doesn’t have the horsepower to comprehend or enjoy? For example, I am not intellectually curious about physics or astronomy. I recognize it is beyond my grasp, and therefore learning about it, or pretending to, doesn’t interest me.
@VD
My husband and I also have very different tastes in reading material. I read a lot of fiction, most of it not intellectually demanding. He reads more demanding material in general, and is also a fan of American history – currently working his way through the biographies of all the Presidents. We may wind up discussing the New Deal in detail or Eleanor’s lesbian leanings. For the record, I am not smart smart, I’m just smart. That’s probably obvious. I would make a terrible mate for a really nerdy tech guy. In fact, I’ve mentioned before that my family teases me because I hate brainteasers. Why? Because whenever we do them I always come in last and everyone has to explain the answer to me.
My husband and I can talk about Ayn Rand – I recently reread The Fountainhead. What would be the value in his “teaching” me about her beliefs if I wasn’t even intellectually curious enough to follow up by reading her myself?”
Not everyone has the time to read a densely philosophical 800 page book.
” I guess that could work for a man who likes to hear himself talk, even if his audience is not particularly receptive.”
Ha, nice back door slam – must have touched a nerve, there. I thought you desired candid input from men for the purposes of edification rather than more fodder for cheap put-downs. Actually, [as is often the case] my wife is the talker in the relationship. I often have to be prompted/provoked into speaking.
“Does she read, and tell you about the books she reads? I confess I don’t get how two people can connect when one is reading Proust and the other People.”
95% of domestic life conversation is doing chores, catching up on the events of the day and planning over the next couple weeks (so-and-so has a birthday party, tomorrow you have to go with me to the bank, etc.). “Connection” comes through interaction. Besides, intellectual stimulation is typically found via one’s male friends, anyway. Was it Schopenhauer or Nietzsche who said “every time a man marries a philosopher dies.”? Words that have stood the test of time.
My question is, does it not entitle you? Or is it a drawback?
Sue,
I think most people prefer to partner with someone intellectually compatible. VD might have a point about the relationship between hypergamy and intelligence, but I find that people who are perceptive, insightful, and curious generally seek out others with those qualities. Being in a relationship with someone intellectually inferior would be like going to a movie with someone with someone who needs you to explain what’s going on while the film is playing.
@meistergedanken
Sorry about that, that really was snarky of me. I guess you did hit a nerve! I do appreciate your candor.
Interesting. I’ll refrain from any editorial comment. I am well aware that your view is probably the prevailing one. Which is why smart women feel pretty discouraged, in general, about being less attractive (or more a pain in the ass) by virtue of the genes given to them by their brainy beta dads.
>> “My question is, does it not entitle you? Or is it a drawback?”
I have a hard time believing that it’s a drawback. Especially when you consider the fact that, like Hope and A. pointed out, there are WAY more male nerds than female nerds. If a girl is even remotely attractive, she can basically go in there and become their queen.
There’s actually quite a drastic drop from 1 SD to 2 SD. About 15% of people will have IQ between 110 and 120 (some distributions don’t start counting 1 SD until 115), less than 5% between 120 to 130. Together this 20% is 1 SD. Less than 2% are 130 and over, which is the 2 SD+ group.
My husband falls into that 2% range. He was celibate for many years because he couldn’t relate very well to the 1 SD girls. He didn’t meet many girls who are in the 2 SD+ range, or who shared his interests, or who were available or in his words, “right.” It sounds pretty nebulous, but he’s also an *NFJ, which is in itself a rare type in the population. Many highly intelligent folks are NTs or at least primarily Thinking function on the MBTI.
So for the very bright folks at the tail end, I don’t blame the guys for deciding to say “I don’t care about a smart girl” and going for one of the girls in the much bigger pool. Most men care much more about an attractive physical appearance and a feminine demeanor. If the smartness comes with such a package, that’s just considered a bonus and not the main dish. So yeah, we girls still have to be pretty and feminine first and foremost, and leave our intellect as an afterthought.
I feel like ‘smart’ girls get a bad rap, when the qualities associated with them (domineering, unpleasant) are actually common in women of average intelligence as well. I’ve witnessed some average girls make completely nonsensical arguments to both average and smart men. I really hope men aren’t just associating the loudest girls who brag about their intelligence or their degrees with ‘smart girls.’ IME both smart men and women don’t feel the need to brag about it, and in fact usually try to downplay it. Men (especially in STEM fields, not the ones in finance or something more ‘high-status’) downplay it because they know most of the really hot girls don’t care, and women because they know that nearly all men don’t care (although they are of course taking note of his intelligence).
I met a STEM guy recently who spends his free time reading about black holes, dark matter, etc. It’s not something I’m interested in, but this made me more attracted to him. I have a difficult time with advanced math so I tend to believe that anyone who can do that math is much smarter than me. So this guy can understand things I can’t really grasp despite trying, and is much smarter than me. Of course the key is that I found him attractive (physically, socially) to begin with, and if it was some scrawny asperger-y dude I wouldn’t have felt the same way.
My question is, does it not entitle you? Or is it a drawback?
_______________
Neither. It might be attractive to some and unattractive to others.
I prefer an intelligent woman, but not all guys do.
Ive found intellect is not a very good predictor of anyones love life. I have seen women fall all over ,in my view, undsirable guys, only to find out that the woman is a Vice President of some company. Never would have guessed that.
OK, once again I am way out on one of the tails (left or right I don’t know). I chose my wife in very large part because of her brains and also basic intellectual compatibility. I have little doubt that she is smarter than I am, she blew out the SAT, was taking college level math as a HS junion, majored in physics at a school where let us say physics is taken very seriously and had some very high-wattage technical jobs. Then she bagged all that to study what I was studying in grad school, which is where I met her. She was the only attractive girl in our little sect, almost (but not quite) the only girl period, we all fought over her (covertly) and I won.
I dated for a time a brilliant girl with whom I disagreed about everything. That was rather, um, passionate but it didn’t work out all that well. Plus, her SMV was undoubtedly higher than mine and I had no game or even knew what it was so that was doomed. At least I had the sense to end it.
Then there were a few average brains and even some, sorry, dummies, and I knew I couldn’t marry any of those. So smarts for me was very important.
Ah but Escoffier, she was attractive!
The red pill for girls is this: Looks and femininity are top priorities, and they’re the female alpha traits. Smarts, loyalty and housekeeping/cooking skills are female beta traits.
A girl needs lots of both alpha and beta to be considered long-term material, but without the alpha traits, a girl with a tremendous amount of beta traits will still not attract men.
Well, since we are all friends here and it’s anonymous, I will say that wifey is not the prettiest girl I dated. I know one is not supposed to say such things but truth is truth. However, there is no question in my mind that she is the highest quality PERSON I ever dated, the best-suited to me, and also the best possible wife. Her cooking is rather half-assed but good enough and anyway I can take care of that when need be. At everything else beta, she is a champ.
I don’t understand how this is a shock to other women. I knew this from a young age because my mother told me that’s how the male mind works. Being pretty/hot and feminine are the top priorities.
“What women need to accept is that, just like men don’t care about what degree or profession they have, they also don’t care much about a woman’s IQ. It’s neither here nor there
So depressing.”
Yeah, I’m in the camp that doesn’t care too much. Of my LTR partners, I would say that they went from straight up average to the 1SD range (which it seems I am in based on the post above. I’m 118 if memory servers me correctly) My wife was actually at 120 (and maybe that’s why she is my ex. I jest, kinda…) In all cases, it didn’t make one bit of difference to me. I am interested in, and talk about some very technical stuff. The only thing I wanted was a partner that I could talk to that wouldn’t “glaze over” and tune me out. I don’t care if she can grasp the different levels of network infrastructure, but I do like that she can understand the concepts of the wireless network in our house.
As long as I can occasionally have a reasonably deep and intelligent conversation with her on something I care about, I’m good. As meistergedanken pointed out, 95% of our communications don’t come close to taxing our total brain power, so I really don’t see a need for making that a priority in a mate. I can appreciate more if she has it, but as long as she has enough intelligence to function as an adult, I’m probably OK with it.
As an aside, my high IQ wife was no better at understanding telecommunication networks than my current SO. And both of them learned how to log into and configure our home router without much fuss.
“After 2.5 years of one night stands and booty calls, which, dont get me wrong, were a lot of fun, I wanted the things you can get from a relationship. I didnt settle for one, as my girlfriend is smoking hot, smart, and fun. I held out through months of dating to make sure I had a girl worth committing to.”
Yeah. If you are lucky, you really smart girls can bag/tame a player (or a man ‘with options’, or man with ‘social proof’, etc.). That is, if you are also “smoking hot” and “fun”.
@Susan
“But that’s not the same thing as specifically selecting for it. Smart girls don’t want to be selected in spite of their intelligence or regardless. It’s a natural gift and we want to be valued for that gift.”
“Smart” girls are like Nice guys; similarly ambiguous and subject to wide interpretation. Unless we are taking about pure IQ. If so, it is still the manifestation that counts. Women may claim to want smart men, but the vast majority – other than those with turkey baster in hand, will respond to the ways in which that intelligence is applied in the field, i.e. earning power, social status, over the status of a mensa membership. Men are no different. “Smart” women who continually feel that their smartness is not being valued as it should be are either selecting the wrong men or are allowing their intelligence to manifest in ways that men do not find attractive. Men could very well value intelligence, but if smartypants continually gets in the way of hot or fun or feminine or nurturing or any of the other male attraction triggers, then she will either have to live with a limited pool of men or learn to modify how she behaves.
The stance that smart girls get overlooked or otherwise undervalued based on their god-given intelligence feels a lot like introverted-quiet-shy or “nice” guys or short guys exclaiming that their god-given qualities are being overlooked, ignored, devalued en masse by women in favor of other attributes. Most women are more attracted to bigger, taller, more extroverted men. Thats just about attraction, something that has been covered quite thoroughly here. Just as most men are attracted to “hot” and “fun”, but prefer some measure of intelligence. What we want and what we get from the SMP in terms of attraction are two very different things. And manifestation of intelligence is (arguably) a lot easier to control, develop, change than for a man to grow 4″ or become more extroverted. I think the majority of men do not discount intelligence in women in terms of selection criteria. It may not be ranked as high as (smart) women think it should be, but it is not for women to decide. Just as it is not for men to decide that women should value x over y. Yet it is up to us to know that what “x” and “y” are and learn to develop and deploy in the SMP the attributes closest to the higher ranking qualities, a la “game”.
Intelligence is important to many men, not all, but many. For some men, not so much – but maybe those men are not so intelligent themselves. If a women wants to be valued for her intelligence over her “hotness” or some other attributes, then she would be best served seeking out highly intelligent men.
I’m not suggesting that men should be turned on by Marian the Librarian.
Well, if the undeniably alpha Prof. Harold Hill became so smitten with her that he gave up his wandering ways and settled down, then she must have had _something_ going for her, right?
This is the bottom line. If you value your intelligence, hold out for someone who also values it.
Sassy 48
See, i had it in reverse. I was lied to constantly.
I would SEE the girls getting with the handsome/well built guys. Then trying to fish for a compliment i’d say things like:
“Bet if i looked like him you’d consider going out with me.”
Responses always varied around:
“Don’t be silly, you’ve got tons of great qualities. You’ll get someone someday”
or
“Looks aren’t everything. It’s whats inside that counts with girls”
or
“You’re too hard on yourself, you’re a great guy. Just be yourself”
or
“No, he’s actually quite nice once you get to know him. Its not about looks”
or
“Whaaaa… why can’t he be more like you!” (translated, why couldn’t he be a hot stud with my beta traits and less of an aloof uncaring asshole)
etc…
Just once i WISH some girl was honest enough to pull me aside and say
“Dude, stop playing counterstrike, start hitting the weights. It’ll improve your physique, instill confidence, make you want to walk tall. Girls will notice, they’ll start to hover, start to play punch you to touch your muscles. Learn to dance! Panties drop when you know how to dance. And whatever you do, DON’T pedestalize a woman. Their ego’s get too huge and you’ll never get them down from there. Be respectful, but don’t take any shit.”
That would have worked SOOOOOO much better than the previous gibberish rammed up my ass.
I wish
My unsophisticated comments on this whole discussion-
In my experience, smart girls:
1) Are easier to talk to, even the really hot ones (pretty rare but mostly worth keeping if you find one)
2) Can ruin it for themselves if they talk too much or always have to have the last word, just like average to below average girls do all the time. Smart girls are often more tactful.
3) Are a little less likely to rationalize shitty behavior to themselves (if their intelligence extends to situations requiring empathy and isn’t just a prop for their ego)
4) Wear cool shoes. I’m serious- most of the smart girls I’ve known had good taste in shoes and a sense of style. Admittedly I’m drawn to smart girls who are also really girly, kind of hipster-ish even.
I wish I were born a trust-fund baby.
Ted D Wrote:
“The only thing I wanted was a partner that I could talk to that wouldn’t “glaze over” and tune me out. I don’t care if she can grasp the different levels of network infrastructure, but I do like that she can understand the concepts of the wireless network in our house.”
This is precisely what I was talking about. Case closed.
That’s fair. I think, though, that other people are looking for a bit more in a partner.
If a man does not value your intelligence, it MAY also mean that he is not particularly interested in a LTR, but rather focused on the “hot” and “fun” aspects of a hook-up. Maybe not, plenty of relationship oriented men may not be as obvious about whether or not (or how) they value your intelligence, but it could be a little bit of a red flag.
Also, in terms of relationship-seeking, I am only interested in smart women. But I’ve known a lot of smart women – that have pedigree/education, fancy job, etc. but have something to prove, or are hyper-competitive, or those who are smart but have interests in things that I consider to be shallow, material, trivial, and/or boorish. So while those women may feel like their smarts were not appreciated, valued, recognized or perhaps even too much for me (or other men) to “handle”, it almost always has more to do with them being just kind of lame. My story a while back about the super-smart-and-powerful-lawyer at the dinner party comes to mind. She was also hot and fun too. Self-aware, not one bit.
M3 – “That would have worked SOOOOOO much better than the previous gibberish rammed up my ass.”
Preach it brother M3!
Tasmin – “If a man does not value your intelligence, it MAY also mean that he is not particularly interested in a LTR, but rather focused on the “hot” and “fun” aspects of a hook-up.”
I disagree to an extent. The reason I’m not concerned with if my SO can understand telecommunication networks is because: I don’t plan on working with her. I want her to grasp the concepts, but I’m not looking to make her an expert in the field. I am all for smart girls, I hate massive stupidity. But I won’t lie and say that there are MANY other traits I find much more important. Most of them fall into the catagories of nurturing instincts and femininity. If they have those down AND a sharp intellect, I’ve struck gold. But I’m OK if I have silver to be honest. Perhaps this is my version of “settling”. the difference though, is I don’t sit around wondering if I’d be happier with a smarter SO…
The magic effect of weights is over-rated IME. Not that I am going to stop or try to talk anyone out of lifting, by all means lift, just don’t expect some kind of miraculous transformation.
If a women wants to be valued for her intelligence over her “hotness” or some other attributes, then she would be best served seeking out highly intelligent men.
No. As I have said, highly intelligent men don’t tend to value women for their intelligence. I dated a girl who scored in the 6th percentile on her SATs for a while. She was pretty, she was nice, and she was hilarious company. And in addition to not being a pain in the ass, she was every bit as fascinated with my interests as the smart girls, which is to say, not even a little bit.
If you value your intelligence, hold out for someone who also values it.
Now this is more like it. The potential problem for smart girls here is that the men who do this are likely to be prone to putting them on pedestals. Then again, it is possible that smart girls who pride themselves on their intelligence will enjoy that more than the average woman.
I want to chime in quickly about this topic again. I scored 2 std deviations above the mean on the last IQ test I took. I have always been aware of my intellect, but I’ve never used it to maliciously cut men down. Thanks to my mom, I have also always been aware of how much power a woman can wield with her looks and feminine demeanor. Striking a balance seems to be the key here.
Don’t hand a man an unattractive woman, no matter how nice or smart she is, and expect him to be enthused. The primal attraction is crucial because most men won’t be willing to appreciate your other attributes if they can’t get past the attraction stage first. The same thing applies to men as well. Don’t hand a woman an unattractive man, no matter how nice or smart he is, and expect her to be enthused. The attractiveness threshold must be met first for the same reason mentioned above.
You know it’s funny, when I was online dating I would guesstimate that about 80% of the dates I went on were with guys who had Ivy League degrees. That fact was never stated on their profiles, but somehow I usually ended up going on a date with an Ivy guy. Even the guy I’m dating now graduated from an Ivy.
Given that most of them initiated contact with me, I’d really like to say that it’s just a case of “like attracts like”.
” IME, most guys appreciate intelligence. They don’t appreciate girls who are condescending jerks about it though.”
-”Bingo”
—————
Why does intelligence get a bad rap?
You know how many dumb folks are condescending jerks?
Most arrogant know-it-alls, I know, are actually dumb.
They’re just too dumb to realize it.
Well, my husband and I might be pretty smart, but in our day-to-day conversations we really don’t talk at a high level. In fact we often just make silly noises at each other.
I agree with whoever said how intelligence manifests is what really matters. There are some very smart men who would be unbearable to live with, who are abrasive, moody, overbearing, controlling, self-important, and constantly focus on the negative. I’m grateful my man is the opposite of that.
Smart girls don’t want to be selected in spite of their intelligence or regardless. It’s a natural gift and we want to be valued for that gift.
Right now, I’m LMAO because for every male commenter that says IQ and accomplishment are not that important, there’s an attached female commenter who has just that from her man. And yes guys, I know that being sexually attractive is important too. The truth is women want to be valued for all they are. A sample conversation between me and DH from years ago.
Him: J, I’ve always wanted to find a woman who was kick-ass samrt, killer funny and beautiful, but not like Barbie.
Me: Wow! Is that me? Men usually just like my boobs.
Him: Not me. I love your mind, your heart and your soul.
Me: So, what’s wrong with my boobs?
In all seriousness, all of us, men and women are spiritual and physical, intellectual and emotional. The cylinders you can hit on, the happier you will be with a spouse.
Also, as I’ve noted in the past, highly intelligent women tend to be both difficult and unstable. The only woman I ever dated who was more intelligent than I was ended up in a mental institution two years later.
Whereas the women’s prisons are full of dumb, stable women, right?
I used to work in mental health. We used to joke, “Smart and crazy…therapy. Dumb and crazy…jail.” Crazy is crazy. It’s the ability to introspect that determines where you go with your craziness.
J – “It’s the ability to introspect that determines where you go with your craziness.”
I like that, and it makes sense. However, I’d counter than in day to day life, I found very few people that are actually introspective in the least. I’m not sure where that leaves us, but I’m thinking it is a contributing factor to our ever filling jails.
Was it Schopenhauer or Nietzsche who said “every time a man marries a philosopher dies.”? Words that have stood the test of time.
FWIW, I know a sad Schopenhauer story. Schopenhauer, as an old man, conceived a great passion for the beautiful 17 year old daughter of a friend. One day when he was boating with the family, he handed the young lady a “love gift,” a smal bunch of ripe grapes. She was so disgusted that his aged hands had touched them and by his intentions, she dropped the grapes into the water.
Somewhere, an intellectual 60 year old woman wept.
Better that the “philosopher of love” had realized that like likes like.
I dated for a time a brilliant girl with whom I disagreed about everything. That was rather, um, passionate but it didn’t work out all that well.
Having compatible values is really important as well.
VD said: “The Naked Lunch: The Video Game”
God how I wish that were a real game. Or better yet, a Dean Moriarty edition of GTA.
I’m 118 if memory servers me correctly) My wife was actually at 120 (and maybe that’s why she is my ex. I jest, kinda…)
A two point difference is meaningless. On an alternate form of the same test or retaking the same test on different days, you could score 122 and she could score 115. IQ scores are not written in stone though scores tend to stay in the same ballpark from test to test, form to form, person to person.
“IQ scores are not written in stone though scores tend to stay in the same ballpark from test to test, form to form, person to person.”
In all fairness, I did say “I jest, kinda”. I am fairly sure her few extra points didn’t do us in. I have a list, but it really isn’t pertinent to this conversation, and I’m currently guilty of totally derailing two other threads at the moment.
Ted:
“However, I’d counter than in day to day life, I found very few people that are actually introspective in the least. I’m not sure where that leaves us, but I’m thinking it is a contributing factor to our ever filling jails.”
————–
I agree that most people (or at least many) aren’t *very* introspective.
Perhaps, not to the degree of landing themselves in jail, but certainly to the point of making poor decisions in other significant areas, like in their finances/health.
The kind of intelligence that I value the most in a person is “life problem solving” intelligence. It’s the ability to find solutions to both minor problems that arise daily and major life challenges that arise without warning. Other kinds of intelligence are fine, they can be a plus, but don’t carry a lot of weight for me in the grand scheme of things.
If a person is; a great athlete, a great orator, highly literate, has earned a gazillion degrees, a member of Mensa, a Noble prize recipient, won an Oscar, won a gold medal in a Olympic event, made the list on Forbes’ 100 world’s richest…….. but their life is full of; failed relationships, repeatedly making bad decisions, people constantly having to bail them out of trouble, ….. if essentially they’re lives are a complete mess, then all of those other acknowledgements/accomplishments/abilities don’t mean much to me.
In order to not make a complete mess of your life, or at least to not repeatedly make a mess of your life in the same area, you need some introspection. So, yeah, Ted, I do count introspection as an attribute of “intelligence”.
# 74
“if essentially they’re lives are a complete mess”
their lives
To go back to the original post-
it does seem that what some men in the ‘sphere are saying is that intelligence in a woman is an automatic -disqualifier_, when what they’re really disqualifying are negative attitudes that MAY accompany intelligence, along with disqualifying intelligence if the woman lacks other attractive qualities.
J:
““Smart and crazy…therapy. Dumb and crazy…jail.””
Ha.
I’ve heard of “smart and bad” dangerous. “Dumb and bad” prison.
J:
“Me: Wow! Is that me? Men usually just like my boobs.
Him: Not me. I love your mind, your heart and your soul.”
—> (said while staring at your boobs.) lol
Sadly, in 2012, in the blue cities, intelligence and a general ball-breaker sarcastic insufferability tend to correllate highly. Of course, correllation is not causation …
As 99% of the other guys in the comments have mentioned, intelligence isn’t a turn off at all. We like it.
It’s just that other qualities are more important.
I meet many intelligent women here in London (and have dated a few). I’m talking Oxford / Cambridge graduates etc.
The ones that are intelligent who complain that they scare guys are usually too competitive, dominant and unfeminine (sometimes superficial and materialistic) for most guys. Those that aren’t trying to act like a man find their intelligence isn’t a hindrance at all.
BTW, it’s interesting that as I get older intelligence is actually becoming less important to me (although I seem to select for college educated) since I can get my intellectual stimulation from friends. Also I think men and women need to balance each other out lest the produce aspergy-kids: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers_pr.html
We discussed western movies here a while back. Wasn’t a common meme in these films that the cowboy falls in love with the schoolmarm? who probably smarter than him in the book-larnin’ sense?
I doubt that most men are scared off by a woman’s high intelligence; what they *are* likely to be scared off by is entitlement, excessive verbal aggression, and (unless they are themselves snobs) snobbery. Unfortunately, all of these unpleasant attributes tend to be inculcated by numerous wings in the castle of higher education.
Exactly. Smarts are not a turn-off. Not to me at least. However, dominance, masculinity, sarcasm, bitchiness, hyper-competetiveness, etc.–traits that tend to correllate with female intelligence–are all turn-offs.
The old 1950s advice to girls to play dumb was half right. That is, it is wise for girls not to use their smarts like guided missiles to prove how cutting and alpha (male) they can be. However, it is not necessary to play Gracie Allen all the time.
Escoffier:
“Sadly, in 2012, in the blue cities, intelligence and a general ball-breaker sarcastic insufferability tend to correllate highly. Of course, correllation is not causation …”
Aren’t you in NYC?
Where if you don’t have a harsh exterior, you’ll be mistaken for a tourist (and taken advantage of). lol
The Decline of the American Empire (Le Déclin de l’empire américain) is a 1986 Québécois film on the sexual exploits of eight intellectuals, four men and four women. The film was nominated for the 1986 Academy Award for Best Foreign Language Film. Such a film could never be made again. The movie begins with an interview of Dominque, a history professor who has just published her book, _Changing Concepts of Happiness_. From this interview, the film gets its title:
“It’s my premise that the concept of personal happiness permeates the literature of a nation or civilization as its influence wanes. The expectation of receiving instant gratification in daily life and that this gratification constitutes the normative parameter of existence. Take marriage, for instance. In stable societies, marriage is a mode of economic exchange or a unit of production. The success of a marriage doesn’t depend on the personal happiness of the two individuals. The issue never even comes up. A developing society places greater importance on the collective good or future happiness, than on personal satisfaction. In Rome, for example, the idea of conjugal love first prevails in the 3rd century, under Diocletian as the Empire is collapsing. And in Europe, Rousseau’s idea of happiness ushered in the French Revolution. So l pose the question: ls the frantic drive for personal happiness we see in society today linked to the decline of the American empire as we are now experiencing it?”
Dominique is a very perceptive character. However, I could not sense whether she was intellectualizing her own unhappiness or perhaps found enlightenment. She is the subtle heroine offering a diatribe against modern western civilization: crumbling institutions, national debt, rampant bureaucracies, and declining birth rates. In other words, the film confronts modern viewers with Spengler’s 1918 thesis, The Decline of the West in the symbolic form of personal history.
I find this truth seeking attractive in women, and Dominique subsequently beds the young idealistic graduate student, who found their attitude towards sex and relationships appalling. Such irony.
I am in NYC but I also get to SF, LA and DC frequently (used to live in all three) and things are no different there.
Long ago I thought that I wanted to be with a smart girl and have intellectual conversations with her.
But really what I wanted is somebody sweet and affectionate (and hot) who is also intelligent enough to understand and appreciate my interests.
@someINTP
A real woman would never talk like Dominique.
If high IQ is heritable, is high empathy also heritable? At least, is it also some genetics intermixed with some environment?
I don’t think it’s necessary for a girl to “play dumb.” It is, however, wise for a girl to be humble, sweet, girlish and playful.
In D&D terms, intellect, wisdom and charisma are different stats.
@Hope
“In D&D terms, intellect, wisdom and charisma are different stats.”
True.
YES!… *ftw*
Escoffier:
“I am in NYC but I also get to SF, LA and DC frequently (used to live in all three) and things are no different there.”
What I meant is that sarcasm/ballbusting is ubiquitous to that type of environment and not necessarily relates in any way to IQ, although perhaps in other regions it can be.
I was just wondering if it’s possible that you don’t interact as much with the less educated crowd and so you’ve come to attribute the negative qualities to intelligence.
#91 “not necessarily relates* in any way to IQ,”
*relates —> correlates
And I’m definitely not suggesting that bossy and domineering women are pleasant to be around, regardless of their intelligence.
Cosigned.
Know what’s a really winning combo? Stupid and domineering! Ever meet anyone like that? Gawd, how I hate that.
@purplesneakers
I’m sorry, this cracked me up. I do get what you’re saying, though. By this reasoning, if you’re going to wind up with a bitch, you might as well get smart sons out of her.
Two small points:
1) I subscribe the to the position explored in Malcolm Gladwell’s book Outliers, that well over half of aptitude as measured by achievements is tied to long term sustained efforts (in some cases enabled by flukes of birth) to become proficient over innate qualities so long as those innate qualities are not disqualifying.
2) All other things being equal, I would prefer the smarter woman so long as I’m not going to have to compete with her intellectually on an ongoing basis. Frankly, I have better things to be spending my time doing and I would hope she does too.
Brilliant.
High intelligence in a woman is only ever a problem when the guy involved feels some insecurity already about the size of his mental endowment. Guys who think/know they are pretty smart are very unlikely to feel uncomfortable with obviously smart women, imho. An obviously smart woman, btw, is one who knows how to present it in a way that serves her own best interests. In other words, she learned easily how to act if making guys want to be around her is a goal. Bitchiness = not smart, unless being disliked is the actual intention.
And gaining 20 lbs you do not need = drooling idiocy.
This pathetically funny story is relevant.
@Tasmin
I agree. The guys that liked it that I was smart when I was dating were smart themselves. My dumb jock boyfriend in college did not once mention my smarts. In fact, he told me I was boring when I asked him if he planned to vote for Ford or Carter.
I don’t think any man would select for intelligence over looks, but if the attraction is there physically, I think it can be a plus for compatibility.
I dunno, you tell me! That’s fiction from an old SMP, but I suspect that even Marian IRL would have her suitors.
@Escoffier
Re: weights: It depends entirely on how much you put in. Train like Arnold.. well, you might not get there exactly but I can pretty much guarantee you you’ll still beat out 99.9% of men.
Lift weights for 20 minutes 3 times a week.. yeah, you’re going nowhere fast.
Glad to be of service, haha.
Another note- maybe because I grew up being constantly praised for my academic success, a.k.a. what a big nerd I was (even the first guy I ever kissed gushed to his mother about how ‘smart’ I was), and now that I am no longer an ugly duckling, I actually don’t want to be valued for my smarts. Not that I don’t want them valued… I just want to be valued more for being fun or being attractive. I think girls who grew up getting tons of attention only for their looks probably ‘fall prey’ to PUAs commenting on their intelligence more. I try not to talk much about my academic/career stuff with new guys I meet.
@BroHamlet
That is the most charming and quirky comment you’ve ever made. I love the shoes part. That makes me realize something about this post – I didn’t define what “smart” is. It doesn’t have to mean the girl is STEM, she could be a violinist or writer or teacher or NP or social worker or whatever. Anyway, I’m charmed by the idea of a bright girly hipster.
@Tasmin
I didn’t even think of that – that’s a great filter. Speaking of red flags, I’d say any woman who talks about needing a man to “handle” her is high maintenance and bad news.
That’s not really what I meant about weights. Someone up above suggested that simply by getting more muscular, girls would start cold approaching and drooling and all a guy’s problems with the ladies would be solved. I don’t buy it. Certainly, it runs counter to my experience and observation.
Give me a break. No guys date a “smart” girl. That sounds so ridiculous. They date good looking girls with intelligence. Since this is hard to measure in 1 or 3 dates, it is easier to ask for her education level. Certainly, it is quite easy to tell if someone merely has a high school education, which I never dated anyways.
However, the definition of a smart girl tells me more about the girl than the guy who selected her. Girls who think they are smart usually aren’t. I seem to encounter quite a few of them and actually married one too. They think they know everything. This is a red flag to avoid. It is quite funny to live with a smart girl. They keep challenging you on knowledge and argue with you on why things are the way they want it to be. They finish an argument with “makes sense?” Of course, by then, you’re exhausted and let her have her way even if she does come crawling back and asks you to bail her out one more time. A smart girl should try listening, but by definition, it doesn’t happen.
It is best to avoid a “smart girl” and go for an “intelligent” or “wise” one with a college degree.
@VD
“No. As I have said, highly intelligent men don’t tend to value women for their intelligence.”
Sorry, I momentarily forgot that what you say is universal truth. I think you are wrong in many ways, but it feels a bit like a rabbit hole so I will let it rest.
“And in addition to not being a pain in the ass, she was every bit as fascinated with my interests as the smart girls, which is to say, not even a little bit.”
The post is about intelligent women selecting/attracting men who value their intelligence, not about how (apparently) one-two-some-most-all of the women you select – intelligent or not, are at best indifferent to your intelligence and/or interests. Intelligent women are the intended audience of this post. Your example is off point. The 6th percentile woman you dated merely shows that YOU are attracted to and/or value/prioritize hilarious-nice-pretty over her intelligence OR her interest in yours*
Which goes to my point: by selecting from men of comparable/superior intelligence a woman is more likely to find the ones (who I argue make up the majority) who will value hers. The compatibility in terms of conversation, interests, pursuits, general understanding of the world are potential added benefits of seeking out comparable intelligence in a partner, but are also not automatic, nor are they indicative of overall intellectual capacity. Interests are not necessarily predictors or indicators of intelligence.
*Or it could just have something to do with this:
“The only woman I ever dated who was more intelligent than I was ended up in a mental institution two years later.”
@J
I love when you share tidbits about your relationship with DH. He does sound like a great guy, congrats.
@J
Did you see Roissy’s post about Dennis Kucinich running Old Man Game? Hilarious. Apparently, a “youthful attitude” will allow old dudes to get the young hotties. Hamsterwheeling at 90MPH!
Jamie! Jamie! Jamie!
Just wanted to say hey, good to see you.
1. One reason that might explain the “domineering-smart-woman” stereotype is that these women are often enough (as a purely statistical outcome) paired with less intelligent men for whom they feel and express less respect.
My social circle is largely composed of academics – there are smarter people out there than academics, but we do meet a certain treshhold for intelligence. A common and successful pairing I see is a very intelligent man with a genuinely intelligent but slightly less brainy woman. Another common sight is the very intelligent woman paired with the pretty smart guy whose intelligence is not high enough to keep her from showing a slight impatience with him in public.
2. There are smart women and nerdy women. Nerdy women are a rare subset of smart women and they have great MMV as a highly sought-after niche product. My ex-girlfriend had no social skills and was not a stunner – but as a female nerd, although 90 % of men would not notice her, the remaining 10 % found her extremely attractive. Luckily for her, she was attracted to the very type of man who was likely to find her attractive. This is a better situation than being a cute, average girl who is mildly attractive to all men but doesn’t stand out.
3. We can size up a person’s physical beauty in a fraction of a second – generally speaking, we know if they’re hot or not before even taking a second look. We can get a pretty good idea of someone’s intelligence level and/or intellectual curiosity after talking with them for ten minutes. However, it can take months to discover if they are unpleasant, argumentative and domineering in a relationship (if they successfully refrain those impulses at the early stages of a relationship).
Unfortunately, to my great chagrin, I have found that unpleasant, argumentative and domineering women are sufficiently overrepresented among very smart women for a woman’s high intelligence to make me instinctively wary – enough that it cancels out the attraction that same intelligence provokes in me. I’m not saying that airheads are necessarily nice – they can be selfish, mean, destructive and irrational. But they are simply unable to savagely skewer you with an onslaught of verbal arguments, so they won’t even try. High intelligence is a wonderful gift for solving problems and discovering truth, but it’s poisonous when used as a weapon for dominating/humiliating others.
In a similar vein, I wonder if many men (myself included) aren’t attracted to slightly submissive women simply as a guarantee that they will avoid full-blown domineering unpleasantness. I value equality in every type of relationship and don’t have a particular need to have my ego stroked or boss my partner around. But after unpleasant past experiences, I am willing to opt for a slightly unattractive trait (submissiveness) to avoid an even worse trait. (In the same way that a man might deliberately choose a plain partner on the theory that she is more likely to remain faithful to him).
Interestingly, my impression is that brainy men (= nerdy introverts as a subset of intelligent men) are often slightly submissive/deferring in social situations, while the reverse is true with brainy women.
4. My feeling is that brainy/nerdy men are attracted to brainy/nerdy women above all because they sense that they have greater chances (short-term and long-term) with brainy women, not because braininess attracts them per se. A lot of our spontaneous feelings of attraction are already filtered through an implicit understanding of our MMV.
The “guys don’t like smart girls” meme is pervasive because it contains a grain of truth.
In my conversations with guys about this, I’ve heard it said they don’t like smart girls. But when you dig a little deeper, it’s actually the behaviour that you often get from smart girls that they really don’t like, it’s not their intelligence itself. I say this as a guy who was married to a woman easily as bright as me, but also who was very emotionally intelligent – she helped me become a better man.
Most guys like to be comfortable in relationships. Some (many?) intelligent girls seem to want to take the upper hand, become combative or otherwise dominate intellectually in their relationships. No, not all, maybe not even many, but certainly with a higher frequency than their less intelligent sisters. Some man get all the intellectual stimulation they need through their work, reading or friends and don’t want the perceived hassle of a “smart” girl challenging them all the time.
So maybe that’s something for the smart girls – don’t hide your intelligence, but remember that the guy would like a partner and teammate in his relationship, not a competitor. Guys would also be advised to reserve judgement on smart girls until they get to know them better.
November you beat me to it!
Hi Susan. I’m still around, just lurking. Sometimes the threads here get depressing and then I move over to reddit. It’s like the online equivalent of giving up and getting a bunch of cats.
Speaking personally (and for several very intelligent male friends), I’m in full agreement with Hope: When you’re more than 1 SD above the mean, it’s difficult to relate to others below that standard. Nothing personal to any of them; just the way it is.
I actually used intelligence as a primary qualifier, when I was dating. Even then, I was fully aware that this was an unusual behavior in a man. In the beta-male thought processes, I thought finding & valuing an intelligent woman would mean she would see and value my own intellect. Laughably naive, I know.
Didn’t work anyway. Most of the time the intelligent ones were domineering, unpleasant, trying to one-up me at every opportunity. No thanks. (And these were *not* 8s or 9s!)
I can see the reasoning. But that’s WAY too dangerous now.
This brings me to a MGTOW point. In speaking with some fellow MGTOWs I came across a contradiction. We all found smart women attractive. But we were all acutely aware that for a smart woman, it’s much easier to wreak legal havoc. She can exploit laws more readily, due to quick understanding. She can find creative ways to make threats or file lawsuits. The Western World is her legal playground. No restraints, no accountability.
Pains me to say it. But even if I were to start dating again, intelligence would no longer be a primary qualifier. In fact, thanks to our legal environment, it may be a detriment.
I love when you share tidbits about your relationship with DH. He does sound like a great guy, congrats.
Awwww, thanks. He IS a pretty great guy! Actually, your marriage sounds a lot like ours (or what I hope ours will be after those damn kids leave
).
Did you see Roissy’s post about Dennis Kucinich running Old Man Game? Hilarious. Apparently, a “youthful attitude” will allow old dudes to get the young hotties. Hamsterwheeling at 90MPH.
Didn’t see it unfortunately. Kucinich? For real?
Let’s Roissy’s pushing 50. A 50 yo hamster wheeling at 90 MPH is 4500hamps/wheel rotation. That’s approaching warp speed. Roissy should ask his cardiologist if that’s safe.
@ Anonymous
Me: Wow! Is that me? Men usually just like my boobs.
Him: Not me. I love your mind, your heart and your soul.
—> (said while staring at your boobs.) lol
Ironically, he’s an ass man.
Susan 104
My wife’s parting words to me where “I need someone who can put me in my place!”
Yeah, whenever I hear any variant of that phrase the only thing that comes to mind is “You know the difference between right and wrong, yet will always act in the wrong and always abdicate responsibility unless ordered too.. in other words, you have the mentality of a child, not an adult.”
“You know the difference between right and wrong, yet will always act in the wrong and always abdicate responsibility unless ordered too.. in other words, you have the mentality of a child, not an adult.”
THIS!!!!!!!
@TedD
“The reason I’m not concerned with if my SO can understand telecommunication networks is because: I don’t plan on working with her. I want her to grasp the concepts, but I’m not looking to make her an expert in the field.”
I am in agreement with your overall position – I essentially say the same thing earlier. But I think you are overshooting my post. I was postulating that what men openly value may also be indicative of what he desires re: a relationship (ONS or NSA or LTR). As such, a woman may consider it a red flag if she feels her intelligence is not being valued/recognized.
I believe that most men value intelligence. I believe that men of above-average intellect are more likely to value the above-average intellect in a partner. I’m guessing that the manner and extent to which this value is demonstrated and communicated, can be indicative of his motivation/desire as it relates to a relationship.
While intelligent men may value intelligence for a potential partner, they value it to a lesser degree for short-term and to a significantly lesser degree for a ONS/hookup. Said another way, many men may value intelligence for a LTR/wife, but if they are looking for a lay, the chances of a women feeling valued for her intelligence are substantially lower, so it is something that should stand out. Consistency and duration in terms of how that value is demonstrated and communicated also come to mind.
As for the comment above, in my previous comment I state that valuing and seeking intelligence does not mean alignment of interests or the pairing of how that intelligence manifests or is applied in daily life. Sometimes the overlap is great, other times it is really of little interest. I think it is best when it is applied in different areas, particularly professionally/academically, but it is important to me (and I believe you as well) that intelligence is mutually valued at a fundamental level.
There are many things of shared value that are expressed differently between men and women or people in general really. I also value creativity. Partly because I want someone to value mine, but mostly because it is a fundamental part of who I am and so I seek those things out. I find creativity to be very attractive. There is a mystery to it, a gift, and seeing someone else’s talent stirs my own creative mind. I paint, but I don’t look for painters – or value a painter over a pianist or a chef. She can play piano while I paint or we can paint together, or totally separate. The important thing is that creativity is not just of passing interest but of value. In my book, the intelligence that I seek, just like creativity, has breadth and depth and is adaptive; qualities that tend to be lasting, generative, and expansive in nature.
I’ve also been in a LTR in which we had a lot of professional overlap and we really enjoyed being able to talk shop, even help solve problems together. It was nice, but rare, and frankly not something I would ever look for or prioritize in such a specific manner. It is more about foundation, the framing, and less about agreeing on the color of the drapes or carpet. Though I hear carpet is rare these days.
Escoffier 105
the weights guy was me. i didn’t mean to suggest it was a magic bullet. i’m simply relating my own personal experience here.
me early 2011
depressed, lack of energy, lanky, beer gut, no motivation, slouched posture, hunched over, felt very inadequate in a room full of guys.
me now
happy with my physique, clothes fit much better, more energy n stamina, developing a little vanity, no beer gut (no six pack.. yet), walk with purpose and confidence, no feeling of inadequacy. i certainly am not the biggest most muscular guy by a long shot, but i look good for my frame.
yes, weights/cardio aren’t going to help you solidify a date or prevent you from fucking up while talking with girls so upping your game is a must. BUT why bother giving your brain one more thing to think about? why play with a possible handicap or dis-qualifier? we’ve already determined that women are just as shallow as men when it comes to visually selecting men’s physical attributes, it’s just more subtle. (Twilight, Fabio, the Ol’Spice guy) why not bother even putting in a touch of effort for which you will most certainly feel better for in the long run? not to mention being in shape probably helps pump testosterone + it kinda makes you feel more like a ‘man’ so…
it’s all plus’s and no negatives except for the time put in. i originally did it to get back at my wife, to show her what she’d miss out on. then i shifted and did it for myself, because i wanted to achieve something for myself, to claim for myself. and i wanted to do it to honor my brother. to attain the body he had before he departed this world.
whatever your reason matters not. do it out of spite, vengeance. do it out of becoming an egomaniac. do it for inner game, to improve yourself. do it.. or don’t. no one is forcing you to.
High intelligence in a woman is only ever a problem when the guy involved feels some insecurity already about the size of his mental endowment. Guys who think/know they are pretty smart are very unlikely to feel uncomfortable with obviously smart women, imho.
No, no, no. This is absolutely false. It’s not a question of insecurity or comfort, but of simple annoyance. I lived with three other guys after college and the minimum IQ in the group was +3SD. The top was +5SD. We all found the smart and highly educated girls to be incredibly annoying because they were so damned self-conscious about it and were constantly – and I mean constantly – saying ludicrous things and basically doing the educated version of stupid pet tricks in futile attempts to win the same sort of brownie points from us that they were accustomed to receiving from their high school teachers and college professors. The one woman that we didn’t mind hanging around us all the time was a delusional model who was adopted as the house mascot and permanent wing-girl and wasn’t exactly a rocket scientist.
Of the four, two married girls without college degrees. One married a girl with a BA from a half-decent private college. The smartest one is unmarried and occasionally takes a break from his twenty-year botany project to bang drug-addled hippy chicks on his European estate.
I momentarily forgot that what you say is universal truth. I think you are wrong in many ways, but it feels a bit like a rabbit hole so I will let it rest.
Whether you like it or not, whether you believe it or not, I am highly intelligent. I also have more highly intelligent friends and acquaintances than most people do. And by “highly intelligent”, I mean Mensa is the floor, if not the basement. So, I’m simply telling you what I have experienced and observed among the relevant population. Statistically insignificant? Absolutely. But nevertheless, potentially informative if you are neither highly intelligent nor male. You are certainly welcome to discount or ignore anything I say, but then, I think you have to ask yourself why you are bothering to opine on what highly intelligent men do or do not find attractive.
Which goes to my point: by selecting from men of comparable/superior intelligence a woman is more likely to find the ones (who I argue make up the majority) who will value hers.
Your point is wrong. An intelligent woman is much more likely to find her intelligence valued by a somewhat less intelligent man who will put her mind on a pedestal. See November’s second group. The problem, of course, is that due to their innate hypergamy, intelligent women tend to be attracted to more intelligent men. And what I am trying to tell you is that while they can certainly attract those men, flashing what passes for their intelligence or expecting to be valued for it is counter-productive. Remember, the one thing highly intelligent men are never insecure about is their intelligence… because they are reminded of it every single moment they spend floating in the sea of human idiocy.
@Hope
Low empathy in the form of narcissism is definitely heritable, according to researchers. So its opposite must be as well.
I haven’t ever watched a reality show, but I get the sense all of the women on those shows fit this description. I wonder how representative they are of American women, and what effect those shows have on men’s perceptions of women.
Esc 105 addendum
no girls won’t start cold approaching (i have never been and can’t fathom i ever will) BUT
it has created openers such as:
-discussing my workout with girls at the office and now have officially been given a cute nickname to boot.
-can approach them and tell them i pulled something in my back and ask for a massage. they’re eager to oblige.
-it makes giving a girl a deep massage much easier
-they seem to enjoy testing how much force is required to make my skin bruise with arm punches. (what does it means when a girl punches you in the arm/shoulder?)
-you feel more confident grabbing a girl, picking her up, and putting her in the corner for a time out when she’s pulling a massive shit test. that’ll learn her.
As part of my continuing inner game life education, I can’t wait to add playing beach volleyball to my repertoire this spring and interact with the ladies of the sand.
New horizons, new experiences, new me.
@Robber
Exactly – if intellectual stimulation is your thing, you have already figured out a myriad of ways to satisfy that need. Leaving questions of gender aside, I’m not convinced that a smart, cultivated partner is actually a good primary source of intellectual stimulation (which is not an objection to being with a smart, cultivated partner). As others have noted in this thread, most conversations between domestic partners revolve around mundane matters anyway. Get a good book, for chrissake!
It’s often said that women should avoid stepping on men’s fragile egos. I find that, careful joshing aside, friendship between guys (in my case anyway) is pretty much devoid of combativeness and oneupmanship. There is something taboo about “challenging” each other in a way that would seek to establish social dominance – you’re breaking the friendship bond. In intimate relationships, many intelligent women seem to want to behave in combative ways that would immediately exclude them from a circle of male friends who mainly want to feel comfortable around each other. They would get branded, i.e. “That guy’s an arse.”
@November
Welcome, and that was an epic first comment! (If you’ve commented before and I’m spacing out, apologies.)
“It’s the ability to introspect that determines where you go with your craziness.”
Or use the crazyness to tell stories
. Trust me I often think that if it wasn’t for my storytelling I would be one of those women in need of high drama from men. Thank goodness writing a Sci-Fi fairytale keeps my mind busy enough.
If a person is; a great athlete, a great orator, highly literate, has earned a gazillion degrees, a member of Mensa, a Noble prize recipient, won an Oscar, won a gold medal in a Olympic event, made the list on Forbes’ 100 world’s richest…….. but their life is full of; failed relationships, repeatedly making bad decisions, people constantly having to bail them out of trouble, ….. if essentially they’re lives are a complete mess, then all of those other acknowledgements/accomplishments/abilities don’t mean much to me.
Cosign this, I had this issue in my country while being part of the intellectual class which I naively though that smart = moral. Turns out smart people use their knowlegde to justify all sorts of dark machinations and then their colleage were all “He might be a bastard son of a bitch willing to sell their mothers for 25 cents but he is a great writer” I value intelligence but if I had to choose between good and smart good always triumphs. Heh I think I get the whole men can lose the taste for smart women in enoigh of those types make their lives miserable. My husband is really smart, probably smarter than me haven’t checked of course he is also more good than I will ever be, but we don’t have the same tastes in books or political leanings.
But then don’t men bond over doing things together?
As a woman I can see needing someone smart to talk to being more of a priority because women bond over talking and sharing feelings and ideas but a man surely will want a woman he can do things with once in a while. You don’t need lot of smarts for that just enough to go to their thing, understand, appreciate and encourage, YMMV.
Robber is Australian and I don’t know the feminism scene there, but I love to blame feminism for everything so I’ll add that it’s created a female sense of entitlement, narcissism, and girrrrrl power that may be prized by fellow females of the same ilk, but renders one basically unfit for relationships of any kind.
“Smart men want to be valued for their intelligence too, but you don’t see very many women chasing after them, do you?”
I mentioned somewhere else that I find a man that’s smarter than me and teach me something to be a huge turn-on. I’ve had men also tell me that they find my intelligence a turn-on, even though I can lack common sense.
““I need someone who can put me in my place!”
Haha, I once said that in my early 20′s….but the older and wiser me cringes at that. I would imagine that only a woman from an unhealthy family background or having low self-esteem would say that.
@Robber/November
I too have seen your points at work. I do think some men steer away from intelligence because it is too often paired with undesirable traits. But really, it is no different for women. Many intelligent men easily fall into that condescending tone or pair intelligence with entitlement or extrapolate their intelligence without bounds. And because intelligence often lends to financial or professional status, they not only have the their own view of their natural superiority, but the social proof as well. Thats just as much of a treat as the female ball-busting intellectual head-cases. For both men and women, it is still about filtering, being selective and developing self-awareness.
Perhaps part of the reason for this image of intelligent women as difficult, adversarial, etc. is because they don’t have the added validation of the social proof, that is, men (particularly those with intelligence and higher probability of the rewards of such) value the financial and professional status of the women to a much lesser degree than the women do of them, thus the overactive desire to prove something.
In any case, a bitch is a bitch, just as a jackass is a jackass. I don’t think it is about the intelligence as much as other factors. Further, intelligence and some measure of submissive are not mutually exclusive. I’ve known and worked with really smart men who have really smart GF’s/wives and there is a fair distribution of sweet and sour across the curve of smart and less so. I’ve known many men who selected for intelligence (and vice versa) but found the submissive (or I would rather term it: alignment of contributions and expectations) they wanted/needed. A lot of MBA/JD types with MSW types. Finance jerks with social-science-education wives. Smart women, but very little overlap and potential for competition. Its more about roles and goals than intelligence. And most of these smart women are now graduate-level SAHM’s, so eventually the day-to-day of kids, family, growing older, and shared life experience burns off most of the proving, validation seeking, and competitive posturing that afflicts many intelligent young women – or manifests with the helicopter super-parent syndrome, but that is a different story.
I think many smart young women are just burning off/through all of the feminist lies about how they can suddenly and simultaneously have it all, land the best man, make partner, and be super mom and thus they can come across as intense, competitive, boastful, confrontational, obsessive, and demanding. They are adrift, just as many young men are adrift in a world where it feels like the masculine ideal/role is a pinata swinging from a tree and every woman you meet played center field on her softball team.
For me, by and large, intelligence is not a “turn on”, though stupidity can be a “turn off.” Intelligence is, however, necessary for LTR/Marriage, partly due to an instinctual desire to benefit ones children and partly because it just makes the person easier to be around for the long term (assuming the intelligence doesn’t manifest itself as shrewy bitchyness). It’s hard to be around somebody saying or doing foolish things all the time – it gets annoying. But I’m not sure I really care all that much about “intellectual stimulation” – I can get that lots of places.
Susan I can’t comment directly on feminism in the US but my perception is that in Aus it is well established. The differences appear to be cultural and at the margin.
I haven’t been in the dating sphere for long recently but haven’t had much trouble meeting smart women. Smart women of good character without bitchy tendencies are much thinner on the ground.
I suspect I won’t deal much with women at work in the US as I’m off to a cleantech startup. Almost everyone has a PhD in engineering or physics and there are no women outside admin. Is feminism something I am likely to cross in social as opposed to work situations?
A note to all the women:
I’d love to hear you talk about what it feels like when you fall in love, and how you show it. How do you let the guy know? What is different about your behavior? Are there ways you let the guy know you love him other than saying it? tI know I have some sense of what I do, but I’d love to hear from others. I do think this would make a great post.
Also, I think this is bound to vary by duration of relationship, so if you could separate falling in love behavior from long-term loving behavior, that would be great.
Thanks!
“Women crave love, but what most men really need is respect.”
And this is why I no longer support women griping about men or saying “It’s hard to find a good man.” How can you expect a man to respect you when you don’t respect him? Treat someone like an asshole, and they will act like one.
” Which is why women need a guy at least as smart as them: it’s very difficult to respect someone stupider than you.”
At the risk of sounding snobby, I agree. I have went through periods in my life where I tried to be open-minded by giving various men a chance, such as men that weren’t very bright. It just felt odd for me, and love was hard to develop. Respect and love can be intertwined.
Yeah, by all means lift weights. I lift weights and like you I came to it (relatively) late in life. However, in my case, it has made no difference in the way anyone perceives me. I do think I am healthier, however, which is all the reason I need. Plus it is easier to move furniture.
The idea of asking females at work for a massage strikes me as suicidally insane, a one-way ticket to the HR stockade followed by the unemployment line.
@escoffier
I guess it depends on where he works. Maybe he works in a strip club or a massage parlor.
In all seriousness, I think his first bullet was intended for the office and second (about massage) dealt with approaches outside the office – at least I hope so.
A throwback to earlier in the comment thread – but I value intellectual inquisitiveness much more that outright high intelligence. And the two definitely come separately.
The first is someone that questions the world and wants to find answers because she’s interested in knowing all her intelligence can allow her to. Even a non-brainy person can find interest in art, life, politics, basic sciences, history, etc. Whatever draws her. She might be able to grasp complicated situations, but she wants to explore them. This inquisitiveness also usually transfers over to wanting to experience new things – foods, sports, places, activities, etc. They don’t take things for granted and will question everything while appreciating the experiences over the journey
Intellectuals just want to KNOW things. Then once they know something, they stop questioning or stop caring. They may not even know the truth, but have been led to believe they do. These people are outcome dependent and don’t care about the journey, about having fun while learning new things. They have a reason for wanting to know something and don’t want to veer from it. Classic idea of the overbearing people that never take in new information but bash you over the head and challenge your stances constantly.
The rare time you can find both intellectual and inquisitive people are when you get wonderful discussions with people that will go and change the world in some way, even if just on the local community level.
This traits apply to both friends and relationships with both sexes. I don’t want to be with an ignorant intellectual male any more than a female. Both will earn my ire just as quickly with their overbearing nature that squashes down any happiness I enjoy in my life journey.
“Are there ways you let the guy know you love him other than saying it?”
This is a hard question to answer, but I think there’s just a look and delight in someone’s eyes when you just know they’re crazy about you.
Other ways are wanting to please him, support him, encourage him, and appreciate him. Talking positively about him and being proud to show to others that he’s your boyfriend.
@VD
“You are certainly welcome to discount or ignore anything I say”
Goes without saying. Or I guess in your world, it does not…so thanks(?)
You are not only intelligent, but quite funny as well. I have no doubt that you and your intelligent friends preferred dimwitted girls to play “mascot” while you compared IQ scores in your own private mensa basement. I mean what kind of people know the (+/-)SD IQ of their friends/roommates and then use that information to affix their view as representative bordering on gospel?
You are working very hard to validate yourself, but you are doing little other than confirming that many intelligent men are full of the entitlement, condescension, elitism, and a distorted world-view that is unfortunately increasingly common in both men and women.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism
– An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges
– A lack of psychological awareness
– Difficulty with empathy
– Problems distinguishing the self from others
– Detesting those who do not admire them
– Using other people without considering the cost of doing so
– Pretending to be more important than they really are
– Bragging and exaggerating their achievements
– Claiming to be an “expert” at many things
– Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people
– Denial of remorse and gratitude
You may be highly intelligent, but based on the persona you are projecting here and the anecdotes you choose to utilize to demonstrate your jaded views, you come across as rather small minded to me. I mean who says this kind of stuff? “the sea of human idiocy”; “I also have more highly intelligent friends and acquaintances than most people do. And by “highly intelligent”, I mean Mensa is the floor, if not the basement.”; “The one woman that we didn’t mind hanging around us all the time was a delusional model who was adopted as the house mascot and permanent wing-girl and wasn’t exactly a rocket scientist.”
I am glad that you and your cohort are statistically insignificant and that you prefer dimwitted to that “annoying” intelligence. Regardless, we are in partial agreement: some intelligence is most definitely overrated.
LOVE
In the early days with my fiance, it was so simple to spot.
I’d text her when i finished parking in the lot of my condo.. by the time i opened the front door she was standing there waiting..
she would be smiling so hard she’d joke that her face hurt. her eyes sparkled and she couldn’t wait for me to drop my gear so she could hug and kiss and squish me.
that’s a hard memory for me to drudge up. and not because it was an infrequent occurrence. because i know the love was real during those moments, i feel like i wish i could be trapped in that moment forever.
and sometimes i still can’t believe that it’s gone.
^^^ OK that’s never happened to me, or anything close to be honest.
About how to know she loves you
I think willing to change her life to fits yours is a good sign of love. If she values her career/job/education more than being with you and place them first, then she probably loves those more than you proceed at your own risk.
Looking for ways to be connected with you. I mentioned small things like stealing a bit of food or drink, it can be giving you something of hers for you to carry, of course I’m sure the chumphobics would never accept their girlfriend giving them a stuffed animal but if that stuffed animal is a present they have had forever them chances are she wanted you to keep it is a good sign of love, other things could be forgetting things behind in the car or room, taking your underwear or a shirt for them, leaving notes.
If her girlfriends are talking about you and with you with affection chances are she always talk about you in a good light so the way her girlfriends treat you is a good sign, also if she wants you to join them, again chumphobics probably won’t allow that but women don’t show around men they don’t love or/and proud of dating also they want you to be part of their lives.
After the initial stages I think if she makes efforts to keep your life simple is good sign of love. For example If she discovers that you don’t like red furniture instead of bitching and nagging to get that red couch she loves she whether stops it or at best try to convince you without diminishing your POV and liking “I know you hate red but I really love this couch can we put it in my study at least?” Most women want their homes to be a sanctuary for both if she is working on her comfort and not yours…bad sign.
YMMV.
“A real woman would never talk like Dominique.”
@Jet Tibet
Building social theory on personal experience isn’t unnatural for men or women. Are you speaking from your own experience?
Personality, not gender, is a more precise way to evaluate communication styles. Human metrics has evolved quite a bit. Even the old way of speaking about intelligence is… unintelligible to me. There are multiple intelligences. Connotations are sensitive to context. Context can turn an idiot savant from a genius to an imbecile.
VD,
It’s unsurprising that you attracted women who sought to impress you as much as you impress yourself. And I can readily understand why a man so enamored of his own intellectual grandeur would want a woman who could not attain his heights.
A man’s preference clearly depends upon the type of relationship he wants with a woman. I’m +4SD and I am sure I’d find a partner more than 2 SD’s below me unsatisfactory on many levels. I want a partner with whom I can share the world and my thoughts and ideas about it. And I want a partner who challenges me spiritually, emotionally, and intellectually. She needn’t have read Pynchon or Gaddis or Joyce or any of the novelists I love for that matter, but she should have a keen insight, a sensitive intuition, and a playful imagination. I want her to be as curious about the world as I am. I want a partner, not just someone to warm the other side of the bed at night.
I hope not, but if you’re going to be in SF proper you’re bound to bump into it. There are places in the U.S. where it will be automatically assumed you’re extremely liberal, and feminist. SF is one, Boston where I live is another. Just steer clear of politics when getting to know people!
Agreed. I can’t imagine anything more foolish in the workplace. Speaking of women taking offense, this week my town newspaper reports that a woman called the police to say a man had been rude to her on the internet. The police informed her that was not a crime.
Susan “I’d love to hear you talk about what it feels like when you fall in love, and how you show it. How do you let the guy know? What is different about your behavior? Are there ways you let the guy know you love him other than saying it?”
What does it feel like? What did I say to him? Here are some excerpts of what I had written to my husband as I was falling in love with him. Get ready for mushiness!
—
Even though you do it so often, it still startles me that you can see with such clarity inside me, my mental and emotional states — and, inside my soul, if I should use that word.
With you, I feel like our spirits are close all the time. It is so peaceful at the same time that it is invigorating and exhilarating. I feel like you make me feel a greater truth. Only, when you say “Love is light,” it doesn’t even feel like truth… it feels like something I’ve always known, and totally natural for you to be expressing it, a feeling of familiarity and “hey, I know this.”
I feel so grateful to be alive… to have met and been touched, if only metaphorically, by someone as brilliant and kind as you. There is so much of the world to see and learn and discover! When I moved out, I felt like I want to do more of that, but I didn’t know how I would go about it. I still don’t really know, but I know that I want to do this with you, at least with as much practicality as I can muster.
I read something last year that goes, “When you really love someone it will be A to B. Not A to D to B to C.” Previously, it’s been the latter. Part of that is definitely my own fault. I was not ready; I did not put in the work necessary on myself. But with you, I feel like we are both prepared for this journey, and that it will be going from A to B, and maybe even beyond. I feel like we both trust each other and have placed our hearts in the other for safe keeping. And I don’t want to hurt you, though our human flaws will surely mean that we will hurt each other inadvertently. But being both healers, maybe we can mend those wounds as well…
I feel like my love for you will only grow with time, which is why I feel also that I can wait. I’ve already waited for a long time… and I know that what I feel now is only a small bud compared to what I shall feel for you when our love is in full bloom.
What I feel from you is a bright, shining light, so full of love, wisdom and purity, and I am totally energized by it. I also feel so close to you, like our souls have already met. I hope that everyone will find a love like this. This is such a new feeling to me, and it is so wonderful.
I’m feeling so ridiculously happy. I’m sitting at my desk with a huge smile because I got to hear your voice. Even just hearing your voice on your voicemail made me want to reach through the phone and touch the man behind that wonderful voice. I am so in love with you. It continues to amaze me how much love you have filled me with, and how it overflows to the rest of my life. Whenever I feel down, all I have to do is think about that aspect of my life in which you exist, shining as a source of eternally brilliant and wonderful love, and the warmth of that light fills me over the brim.
I love you with all my heart. I will always love you.
I want to offer a small correction for a comment which Susan pointed out as, quote “Brilliant”.
Actually, it’s more like the proportion of girl A/B traits will probably correspond to the guy’s A/B traits (I quite agree with Atol’s [sp?] theory that women prefer a guy with both alpha and beta traits).
So, examples to explain it.
Female Alpha only (FA) – Short term relationships, likely to attract the Male Alpha only for a one night stand. If they have a relationship, cheating will probably result.
FB – Will definitely attract the MB for long term relationships.
FAB – Can get the MAB – the choice pick.
In other words, a woman can be not that physically attractive, but still get a guy – it will just be a guy that’s not necessarily that attractive himself. (and of course, the flip side will be true also – guys may have to accept they can’t always get models)
J:
” Ironically, he’s an ass man.”
OH NO! After reading several posts regarding your husband …
I’m starting to worry that you and I might be members of the same harem! ha .. eh .. (sigh)
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