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Hitting the Links: Spring Edition

 

I. The female form is endlessly fascinating to both men and women, and we’ve had many discussions and debates at HUS about what constitutes beauty or sexual attractiveness. Italian artist Anna Utopia Giordano has conducted an interesting exercise by altering classic paintings of the female nude to adhere to contemporary beauty standards. From Flavorwire:

In her Venus project, Italian artist Anna Utopia Giordano remixes some of the most celebrated nudes of art history, giving them an extreme Photoshop makeover. Essentially, she turns the icons of beauty of bygone centuries into the breasty waifs currently mass-marketed as ideal in today’s society. She asks, “What would have happened if the aesthetic standard of our society had belonged to the collective unconscious of the great artists of the past?” The results are stark and varied. While some ladies might be bettered by a tug at the waistline and pump to the bust, others may seem off and almost disturbingly adolescent. It makes us wonder if the girls of yesteryear — the ones with the skinny forms idolized by today’s fashion industry — would have stared up at the comparatively Rubenesque builds of the pin-ups of their day with envy.

What I find interesting is the modern day equating of femininity with boyishness. Unlike the flappers in the 20s, though, who were ideally flat-chested and prepubescently male in their appearance, the 21st c. equivalent has waiflike limbs with large breasts. It’s a fascinating slideshow – see it HERE.

II. Danny from 504 has written an interesting post about his grandfather Paw Paw’s natural Game. A natural ladies’ man, Paw Paw shared his secrets with Danny on a recent visit home to New Orleans. It’s all about taking a ton of shots, and not sweating the misses. Easier said than done, but a good read.

III. The Art of Manliness has an excellent article on eye contact. It covers the most effective uses of eye contact in business, when you mean to indimidate someone, dealing with other men, connecting with women, and public speaking. They also give some helpful tips on how not to “be a creeper.” Written for men, but there’s a lot of useful information for women as well.

IV. Little Known Statistics On Sex and Relationships by Eric Barker.

Most likely to generate discussion at HUS:

1. A woman will get chatted up in a bar 6 minutes faster if she is wearing make up.

This might lead one to wonder if the wearing of makeup signals promiscuity, but yesterday I happened to read this in an article in the March issue of Elle magazine:

In October, researchers, led by Nancy Etcoff, an assistant clinical professor of psychology at Harvard, studied people’s immediate reactions to women barefaced and in varying levels of makeup and found that those wearing makeup were more likely to be perceived as amiable, trustworthy, and competent. Even women who opted for glamorous looks were perceived as more competent than those who favored a natural look. 

2. 98% of Americans have experienced unrequited love.

No apex fallacy here.

3. For every $5000 extra a woman earns over her partner, their risk of divorce goes up by 5%.

Sources may be found at Barking Up the Wrong Tree.

  • M3

    I. The chick riding the clamshell is hot in the first pic (perspective makes her appear a tad chunky on the right but shes really kicking her hip out). The second pic looks scary weird. Anorexic. Tits way too low on the body. Feel like she’s gonna break. But well defined abdominal region.

    II. Sounds like an old take on shoot at 100 targets, you’re bound to hit 1 in a nutshell.

    III. Making tons of mental notes off this article.

    IV. 1. Peacock effect.

    IV. 2. This one shocked me. 98% have experienced unrequited love. Everyone was a teenager at one point. The shocking part is the 2%. Did they grow up to be serial killers?

    IV. 3. Interesting. It only took a 10% risk increase to actualize into a divorce in my case.

  • http://www.therulesrevisited.blogspot.com Andrew

    I think Anna Utopia Giordano’s experiment carries too much weight. The shock that the doctored paintings inspire is caused more by seeing the juxtaposition of the new CONTENT of the paintings with the old MEDIUM (i.e. toned women depicted in oil paintings) than by some kind of deviance from a “natrual” standard for the femenie figure.

    Suggesting that the paintings depict a more appropriate standard for women because they are beautiful paintings is like asssuming that an actor’s political views are sound because he or she is an incredible actor.

    http://therulesrevisited.blogspot.com/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think Anna Utopia Giordano’s experiment carries too much weight.

      Punny!

      Suggesting that the paintings depict a more appropriate standard for women because they are beautiful paintings is like asssuming that an actor’s political views are sound because he or she is an incredible actor.

      Did Giordano suggest the Renaissance ideal is the appropriate standard for women? It’s interesting – the men feel quite defensive about this project. I think it’s very interesting to compare and contrast the two ideals. One could make the same point (though less elegantly) by doctoring photos of runway models to look obese.

      I think it’s natural and not the least bit surprising that women might be interested in the changes in fashion re the female form over time. The 20s, as I mentioned in the post, glorified the boyish figure with no breasts or waistline. It certainly wasn’t men who drove that, it was something else – something happening in society. Post WWI, the era of Prohibition, the fact that women had thrown away their corsets? The 20s were also quite promiscuous – those boyish young girls were getting busy, and the men snapped them up.

  • Sassy6519

    The altered forms of the female paintings disturb me a bit. They look so weird. I think this is because the altered images may not adhere to the golden ratio as the unaltered paintings have.

  • http://Dannyfrom504.wordpress.com Dannyfrom504

    Thank you Tia. Apprciate the link love. Paw-Paw said he’d love to buy you a drink. Lol.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Danny

      I would love to have a drink with Paw Paw. I know I would be totally charmed by him.

  • M3

    Actually surprised Angelina Jolies leg didn’t end up on that photo.

    Time to crank up Photoshop.

  • H man
  • Escoffier

    The Southern Poverty Law Center is a shakedown operation that scares little old ladies into donating their Social Security checks to prevent the Nazi hoards from taking over. Which we all know is just over the horizon.

    Morris Dees should be in jail.

  • Ted D

    Picture on the left is better, but to be honest I would still prefer the woman in the center to be a little more curvy.

    I saw a picture online somewhere with a very curvy woman on laying sideways on a couch. The subtext read:

    Curves. If I wanted to date a woman with the figure of a 10 year old boy, I’d date a 10 year old boy.

    Truer words may never have been said.

  • Ted D

    Found it!

    http://www.clubrapid.com/picture/543

    Giggady giggady

  • someINTP

    Men overestimate their ideal muscle mass. I’ve also read that women also idealized skinny fashion models more than men. The obsession with skinny is primarily driven by women in the same way that obsession with bodybuilding is primarily driven by men. Though, I believe that male sexual preferences are more strictly rooted in biology and thus less malleable to culture.

    I can’t find the article, but if female fashion models conform to male sexual appetites, they would be built like porn stars. I don’t know if that is any better. However, if male muscle magazines were written according to female sexual appetites, all the models would look like Johnny Depp.

    Also, the faces of female models tend to be masculine. Men prefer the more feminine features found in the general population. The creator of the ideal face mask (based on golden ratios) said that the selection of females models differs in the way men select their mates. More women and more gay men are involved in selecting the female forms that are held up as the ideal. This distorts what heterosexual men actually find most attractive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @someINTP

      Good points. I did read somewhere that men will always prefer a .7 WHR unless a different ratio becomes higher status. That is what we are seeing now. Giselle Bundchen has a WGR of close to .9, but plenty of guys would say she’s smokin.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    INTP

    That makes a lot of sense.

  • Ramble

    Susan, in that slideshow, a lot of those revised figures were not waifs (though at least one was), just thinner versions of the original.

    Something that rarely gets pointed out is that artists (not modernist artists, but artists of realism) renditions of the female figure was already getting thinner starting in the late 1800′s (and, possibly, even earlier).

    Basically, as the West became wealthier, and starvation a less likely outcome for the growing upper and middle classes, the female ideal became thinner.

    Though, as far as I can tell, the really, really skinny version of the female form only became popular (again, amongst the wealthy) during the crazy economic boom of the 1920′s (i.e. flappers) and later when gay fashion designers took over (say, starting in the 60′s and 70′s and really taking off in the 90′s).

    Lastly, it should always be pointed out that what Fashion Designers and Madison Ave want to push on us is rarely the same thing as what the average 18, or 28, or 38 year old guy is wanting to download online.

    I don’t have the time to hunt down the various studies and surveys, but, in general, guys tend to NOT like girls who are “skinny” (as that word has become defined over the last 20 years), but prefer thin or slim girls with B or C cups and wide hips…yes, guys actually like hips.

  • J

    This one shocked me. 98% have experienced unrequited love. Everyone was a teenager at one point. The shocking part is the 2%. Did they grow up to be serial killers?

    Reminds me of the old joke about the Kinsey survey in which 98% of men were found to have masturbated within the last week and 2% were found to be pathological liars.

  • GudEnuf

    A website that advocated MURDERING ALL BABY BOYS is not included in the SPLC’s list of hate groups, but r/mensrights is?

    http://radicalhub.com/2011/10/04/radical-feminism-in-the-21st-century/#comment-3597

  • KK

    Primal reaction: I want to impregnate most of the women in the original pics, the retouched ones I just want to have sex with.

    The originals look more… ‘matronly’, and there’s something a bit off with the edited versions. They look different than an authentically slim girl would look like.

  • purplesneakers

    Primal reaction: I want to impregnate most of the women in the original pics, the retouched ones I just want to have sex with.

    The originals look more… ‘matronly’, and there’s something a bit off with the edited versions. They look different than an authentically slim girl would look like.

    That’s exactly what I thought- the ones on the left looked more like mothers, the ones on the right like.. victoria’s secret models. possibly airbrushed. It’s interesting to read the male reaction about impregnation!

  • Sassy6519

    That is what we are seeing now. Giselle Bundchen has a WGR of close to .9, but plenty of guys would say she’s smokin.

    .9 Waist to Hip Ratio? That’s so weird. I couldn’t imagine having that body proportion.

  • jessdixonjess@yahoo.com

    I would agree with most posters here.

    If you want to know what guys like or think is ideal you go to a porn site

    If you want to know what gay male fashion designers and other females think is ideal you go to a fashion show

    Their ideals regarding the body are not the same

    There are some guys that do really prefer the slimmer girl (luckily for me in the past) but the majority like boobs, bum and a bit of slap.

    If I go out (rarely these days) in a posh frock I will get a fraction of the male attention compared to a similarly attired girl who has cleavage and hips.

    I have many times heard from guys that ‘such a such’ an actress was too skinny for them.

    The crazy thing is that we have teenage girls buying into the media crap and starving themselves to death because they think guys want skeletal model types which they simply do not.

    Sarky articles from the odd minority guy suggesting girls diet more dont help of course!

    There are currently 2 blonde TV presenters in the uk who often work together. One is skinny- the other is curvy. They are often compared and contrasted in the british press.

    They are both annoyingly pretty. I only know of 2 guys that prefer the skinny one (my OH and a friend), but all the other guys I know have expressed a strong preference for the curvy one.

    Go figure.

  • Ramble

    I would love to know the numbers on HS and college aged guys that have a poster of Giselle on their wall.

  • WarmWoman

    “I’ve also read that women also idealized skinny fashion models more than men. The obsession with skinny is primarily driven by women in the same way that obsession with bodybuilding is primarily driven by men.”

    As someone who has been both “too skinny” (5’5 at 110-115 lbs in highschool) and on the curvier side, I’ve gotten more male compliments when I was curvier than when I was thin. I believe men like breasts, hips and an ass.

    I’m not trying to demean anyone’s body type. Both thin, average and even some heavier women can look great.

  • jessdixonjess@yahoo.com

    body building guys are quite repellent- very few women like that look imo

  • WarmWoman

    @Jess

    Yeah, I don’t mind some muscular definition..but not to the point where it’s too beefy. Thin/average with muscular arms and broad shoulders would be ideal for me.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    A big reason that the skinny pictures look odd too is that those art styles of the old classical paintings focused heavily on defining the muscle structures of women much more than they do today. They also did this primarily through shadow work.

    When you take those shadows and simply reapply them to a now skinnier version of the painting it just looks freaking weird.

    Personally, I subscribe to the look of beauty being that with some good hips, chest, and ass like Warm Woman describes. I don’t want to worry about breaking a woman when things get…. intense.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Painting and drawing the human body is very difficult. The slightest “off” will be detected, even if it’s mostly subconscious. I’ve been trying to do some paintings of human figures, and the less clothing there is, the more difficult it is. The photoshopped version is mostly anatomically correct, but that slight difference will result in weirdness by subconscious perception.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Curves. If I wanted to date a woman with the figure of a 10 year old boy, I’d date a 10 year old boy.

    This reminds me Oscar Wilde letter to his first fiance after he married his wife “I got a woman with the body of a 14 year old boy”. I think that is the most exemplary case of a man so in the closet that he though he was in a car shop.

    Basically, as the West became wealthier, and starvation a less likely outcome for the growing upper and middle classes, the female ideal became thinner.

    Is a bit like tanning being tan in the past meant that you worked outside thus being pale was the hit. Then it became a sign that you could pay for vacations in the beach and tanning became the hot thing for the rich. Now with skin cancer being pale is slowly coming back although the lower classes still need to catch up. Whatever means higher status is what means you are hot.

  • Rum

    Two thoughts: The person who remixed the photos of the paintings had all X chromosomes. Therefore, she was virtually un-able to see the female form as men see it and so she created images that look un-natural to men. Not hot or ugly; just un-natural. Like something not found in nature. Second, it is largely a waste of time to try to sheep-herd, or shame, or cajole men into getting boners for womens shapes that their penis just cannot get into.
    I get the impression that women are about 1000 times more influenced by pre-selection and social-proof than men. See, nothing could be sweeter for a guy than to be super turned on by a chick that other guys did not want. No competition – great – that is if she wants what you can offer.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Second, it is largely a waste of time to try to sheep-herd, or shame, or cajole men into getting boners for womens shapes that their penis just cannot get into.

      I don’t think Giordano could care less when men like. She did not come at the project from the viewpoint of sexual attractiveness. She appears to be interested from a sociological perspective – the female ideal has changed dramatically in the species in 500 years. I believe she’s speaking about culture – the fashion industry, and the ready availability of plastic surgery. She gave several of the female figures breast implants.

      The original painters were not painting sexually titillating scenes. They were entirely focused on the beauty of the female form.

      Since you bring it up, however, what shapes men find sexually arousing has changed dramatically as well. This is easily observed by noting who the highest status males select for both short and long-term mating. I find this fascinating, personally. Are men changing and dictating to the fashion industry what will sell? Or is the fashion industry dictating to men what is hot, even though it’s aimed at the female consumer?

      Basically, as the West became wealthier, and starvation a less likely outcome for the growing upper and middle classes, the female ideal became thinner.

      I don’t think this explains it. First, the painters, the patrons and the people who viewed the paintings were all wealthy. Second, obesity and poverty are far from mutually exclusive, even then.

  • Rum

    I mean, a guy is not in a good place if he falls in lust with a repulsive celluite fire-plug with deranged ideas of her actual self-worth.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I mean, a guy is not in a good place if he falls in lust with a repulsive celluite fire-plug with deranged ideas of her actual self-worth.

      I guess you’re not a fan of Renaissance art.

  • Doc

    Back when many of the originals were painted, nutrition and getting enough food was the anomaly so women tended to be thin, and dirty (not enough bathing) as well as a lot of other things. The women who had enough to eat, and the means to bathe were healthier and more likely to have healthy off-spring. Today, that is reversed – the ones who are heavy tend to have horrible nutrition and do not take care of themselves as much as the women who care more about their appearance and health.

    Men tend to find attractive women who will produce healthy off-spring, just as a smooth complexion tends to mean less disease and therefore someone who is healthier overall. Men, as well as women, unconsciously find what will produce better off-spring more attractive – although women also tend to have that whole difference from wanting to mate, and wanting a male who will take care of them when they are pregnant thing going on.

    Lesson from all of this – today, be thin if you’re female and care about your looks. Men – don’t be pansies – women respond to what they have always responded to – a man who will take charge and make things happen. Too many people spend too much time criticizing reality rather then just enjoying it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Men tend to find attractive women who will produce healthy off-spring, just as a smooth complexion tends to mean less disease and therefore someone who is healthier overall. Men, as well as women, unconsciously find what will produce better off-spring more attractive.

      The fashion industry ideal, which is what Giordano is addressing here, has a BMI so low she is unlikely to be menstruating, much less producing healthy offspring. The prevalence of eating disorders in the young female population suggests that low BMI women have very poor nutrition. A common modeling trick is to eat wet cotton balls for a meal. They give a great feeling of fullness, are easily passed and have zero calories!

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    In his fantasy novel The Screwtape Letters, C S Lewis has the senior devil tell his nephew (a devil-in-training) that humans should be encouraged to believe that extremely thin women are the most attractive, since this form of beauty is even more transient than most, and hence such a trend is helpful in keeping the humans perpetually dissatisfied and miseraable.

  • Wudang
  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    Ahh let the skinny shaming begin.

    “It’s interesting – the men feel quite defensive about this project. I think it’s very interesting to compare and contrast the two ideals. One could make the same point (though less elegantly) by doctoring photos of runway models to look obese. ”

    Fat chicks can’t have healthy babies. Lets get that out of the way.

    Now lets see why men could be offended:

    Ohh ya off the top of my head its offensive to be told your mate is of lower quality than the chick who can’t get a boyfriend (thats a fail btw).
    The suggestion that men dating skinny women are gay could also add some sting.

    Seriously, do you even know what an 18.5BMI looks like? Thats the minimum for “normal” weight. My fiance is 5′ 99pounds and still comes in at 19.3. I toss her up on my shoulder and carry around for shits and giggles and she is still a healthy weight.

    Being an underweight BMI is nearly frickin impossible unless your dead or poor.

    As for whats most attractive? Its the normal range of 18.5 to 22.5. Go online calculate your BMI and if its not in their fix it.

    Last, I’m not gay. I watch the vic fashion show once a year. Thats the extent of your avg mans understanding and caring of the fashion industry.

    If you want to know what gay guys and women find hot go watch a runway model. If you want to know what straight dudes find hot go look at the women on budweiser commercials or porn and aim for that.

  • BuckeyeBri

    Regarding the updating of the classics. Well, the altered images don’t look too far from a classic model as far as I’m concerned: the classic .7 ratio. I think that we’ve just arrived at more refined version of that in modern culture.

    As far as Susan’s observation about flappers, I don’t think pop culture is always an accurate reflection of what men really find attractive. I think the whole reason guys found flappers to be attractive is that they tended to be promiscuous, by the accounts I’ve read, not because guys took a sudden liking to women who would make a utility pole look curvy. The modern equivalent of the flapper would be the Snooki/JWoww clones that seem to be so common in more urban areas. I know of NO guy that prefers that look over that of a Scarlett Johansson look-a-like. But put that oompa loompa meets Ed Hardy look on a reasonably fit woman, and guys will be all over her? Why? To most guys, that Jersey Shore look signals promiscuity. It’s not because it’s beautiful.

    Please note that the above is where some women drastically go awry. Some woman who sport the Jersey Shore look aren’t promiscuous and really are looking for a LTR, yet they can’t why all the guys who were after them were just about the sex. Ladies, just like dressing for the job you want, not the one you have, dress for the relationship you want. Note that I didn’t say the man you want. Many of you really do want the d-bag kind of man sporting Ed Hardy and dripping the Dark Triad in a sexual sense, but he’s not going to commit to you. Give that up. Stopping dressing in ways that signal to that kind of guy that you are easy prey. Feel free to be sexy, but if you dress like a hooker, be prepared to deal with guys who act like Johns. Anyway…

    If you are looking for cultural representations of “beauty” that represent what are actually beautiful, at least, look for ones with staying power. That applies to men, at least. Women tend to toy with and get bored with a certain appearance a lot faster than men do, and I suspecting that the so-called “changing beauty standards” over the years has more to do with women being women in that regard and less to do with what is actually beautiful to male nature. Representations of beauty in any era are just like any social gathering today: women dressing to impress other women, with appeal to men being a factor but not a deciding factor.

    “It’s interesting – the men feel quite defensive about this project. I think it’s very interesting to compare and contrast the two ideals. One could make the same point (though less elegantly) by doctoring photos of runway models to look obese. ”

    I won’t speak for other men, but I’m not feeling particularly defensive about it. What I will say is that obesity is an epidemic in the United States (a HUGE factor that keeps a lot of women from being attractive to the opposite sex, and studies like these tend to be touted by people who advocate the position that if we could just accept women “as they are” and that if we men had “realistic standards,” the world would be a better place.

    In other words, these kind of things tend to be grist for the “fat acceptance” mill, and sometimes us men get the idea that we men are being told by people who march out these kind of exercises that we should just flip a switch and suddenly start salivating over obese women just because some artists (more than one of whom was gay) back in the Renaissance preferred their models to be a little extra soft (note, NOT obese) is abhorrent to a lot of us. It’s particularly annoying when we look around us and 2/3rds of the women we see are just not attractive due to them being fat…and that’s before you factor in any other personality traits that might be a turn-off or other physiological turn-offs.

    That said, I like my women legitimately curvy, voluptuous, and nicely proportioned. Please note that I mean “curvy” and “voluptuous” as classically defined, not as the polite euphemisms for fat that so many women currently use them for, particularly on dating sites. The .7 ratio is definitely in full effect for me.

    On point 3, that’s simply more evidence of hypergamy at work and usually more opportunities to engage in hypergamous behavior.

  • WarmWoman

    @lokland

    BMI isn’t always accurate. My last boyfriend was very slim, but he had a high BMI. He also worked out a lot. I have a girlfriend that’s 5’5 and 160 lbs, but she looks like she could be 125. She runs and bikes a lot.

  • BuckeyeBri

    @Susan

    I did a little research on Gisele, and here what I found:

    How Much Does Gisele Bundchen Weigh?
    57kg or 125 pounds

    How Tall Is Gisele Bundchen?
    5’11″ or 180cm

    What Are Gisele Bundchen Measurements?
    35B-23-35.5 (89-59-90)

    Now, I’m not sure about your math, but my math puts her VERY close to the holy .7, not anywhere near .9. Where are you getting .9 from?

  • WarmWoman

    @leapofabeta

    I’m now confused about what curvy is supposed to mean these days. A lot of overweight women are using that description on their dating profile, whereas the true curvy women are received with skepticism (men being scared that they must be fat offline).

    It’s tough how to describe yourself when you’re a woman that’s not thin, but you’re not fat either.

  • Lokland

    @ ww

    I agree. My BMI is near 27 but I’m not fat.

    However, how many people do you know that are rocking enough muscle to skew the BMI chart? Especially women?

  • Sassy6519

    @ WarmWoman

    To me, a woman has to have very specific measurements to be considered curvy. In essence, the waist measurement needs to be significantly smaller than the bust and hip measurements, creating the hourglass figure. I have exactly a .7 waist/hip ratio, but I am also nowhere near a size 2. I have never had a problem with men, in that department. Men love ass, thighs, and breasts. What men don’t like are large arms and a huge stomach/gut. The last quality, in particular, throws off the hourglass shape.

    If you have a tiny waist, and a large bust size/hip size, that’s what I consider curvy to be.

  • Lokland

    @ww

    “I’m now confused about what curvy is supposed to mean these days.”

    Hourglass figure = curvy.

    Big tits/hips but fat = fat, not curvy.

    Anything else is average or thin.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    Somewhat on topic. Here’s something one can do with an art history major:

    http://www.cheerstoart.com/

    I can attest that it makes a great date. Sold out too. The proprietors are right down your alley.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Desiderius

    I live in Cincinnati, and that place isn’t too far from where I live. That seems right up my alley. I’ll have to keep that place in mind.

  • pvw

    .9 Waist to Hip Ratio? That’s so weird. I couldn’t imagine having that body proportion.

    My reply:

    Not so unusual; there are plenty of women who are “inverted triangle” or “apple shaped,” or who are “rectangular” shaped and who have those proportions….

    What bothers me, though, is that some of the apple shape analysis seems to presume that all women with this shape have fat stomachs….It is true, though, that an apple shaped woman who doesn’t keep in shape will put in the fat in her stomach. Those who are in better shape tend towards the triangle look. Some women who have the rectangular look might approach the triangle as they exercise more and get more defintion…

    I think about competitive swimmers I knew in school or who were members of the crew team. Today, I think of the serious gym rats I know who are in the gym about five days per week, doing cardio for like an hour or more, light weights, abdominal excercises….With respect to the latter, the bmi might say they are overweight or even approaching obese, but the muscle tone underneath makes them look solid as compared to fat.

    So how should a woman like that describe herself? She might be big busted, but her stomach is flat, as is her butt, and her hips are not as wide as her bust area…similar to the woman in the second picture above….

  • Sassy6519

    So how should a woman like that describe herself? She might be big busted, but her stomach is flat, as is her butt, and her hips are not as wide as her bust area…similar to the woman in the second picture above….

    I’d describe that shape as “Average”. The lack of the hourglass shape wouldn’t make it classifiable as curvy.

  • Rum

    If the stated goal of this blog is to encourage the formation of healthy, stable, LTRs, I cannot think of many worse moves than to propagate the notion that men will not (or should not) mind it when their womenfolk go from svelte to zaftig. The more men think that women think that is OK, the less willing to commit they will be. It is roughly equivalent to guys announcing that they see nothing wrong with dropping out of the work force after marriage if they feel like it and besides, they should always be “accepted for who I am”.
    The whole concept of demanding to be accepted for who you are is deeply corrupt and highly aggressive. Under the spin of warmth created by words like “acceptance” the phrase is really an assertion of the innate superiority or of having a higher social rank than the receiver of the comment. Because the unspoken but inescape-able implication of “accept me for who I AM” is “regardless of what I chose to DO – because who I am is a seperate thing from what I do.”". That is language used honestly by Aristocrats with inherited titles. Or to some extent like the military where an underling is compelled to salute the uniform of an officer, not the flawed person wearing it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      If the stated goal of this blog is to encourage the formation of healthy, stable, LTRs, I cannot think of many worse moves than to propagate the notion that men will not (or should not) mind it when their womenfolk go from svelte to zaftig

      Who is propagating that notion? I was careful to avoid any such implication in the post and reiterated early in the thread that this has nothing to do with what men find sexually attractive.

  • M3

    All these comments about hip to waist ratios, big ass/flat ass, D cup vs. A cup, shapes and BMI’s.

    I don’t know what beauty is.. I’ll just know it when i see it. And by “I”, i mean my dick.

  • Ramble

    First, the painters, the patrons and the people who viewed the paintings were all wealthy.

    Right. There is a reason why the term Fat Cats is rarely used for wealthy people. The wealthy, nowadays, are much less likely to be fat and the poor are much more likely to be overweight. The patrons, back then, were able to afford the food, and leisure, that could enable them to be healthy and plump. And they were the ones who got painted.

    Second, obesity and poverty are far from mutually exclusive, even then.

    Again, obesity and poverty rarely went hand in hand before the Industrial Revolution (actually, it was the development of highways that really drove the lower and middle class weight gain). The average working class person simply did too much walking and manual labor to get plump or fat.

    The fashion industry ideal, which is what Giordano is addressing here, has a BMI so low she is unlikely to be menstruating, much less producing healthy offspring.

    The fashion industry gay male
    ideal, which is what Giordano is addressing here, has a BMI so low she is unlikely to be menstruating, much less producing healthy offspring.

    There is a reason why the Fashion Industry* cares little about celebrating girls who are likely to be menstruating (i.e. noticeable child bearing hips).

    * An industry dominated by gay men (and women who choose to move to places [i.e. Manhattan, LA, London, Paris, Milan, etc.] where they can not afford to have families and are unlikely to be focusing on marriage and children)

    =================================

    Also, this response to Doc:
    The prevalence of eating disorders in the young female population suggests that low BMI women have very poor nutrition.

    is off the mark. I really doubt that Doc was trying to say that the average young man finds the stick thin, dour faced woman (with no ass or hips) attractive. He was simply trying to explain why a more plump woman was focus on in the past and slimmer versions are often preferred today.

  • Ramble

    It’s interesting – the men feel quite defensive about this project.

    Not completely different than how many men reacted to Kate Bolick being referred to as being beautiful.

    The 20s, as I mentioned in the post, glorified the boyish figure with no breasts or waistline. It certainly wasn’t men who drove that, it was something else – something happening in society. Post WWI, the era of Prohibition, the fact that women had thrown away their corsets? The 20s were also quite promiscuous

    Massive increase in wealth. The huge increase in wealth, especailly by those that were already wealthy to being with, enabled many to subvert social norms.

    That subversion soon became much less popular during the Great depression.

    Same thing happened in the 60′s. Both the 1920s and 1960s saw a major increase in Liberal/Leftist ideology. The fervor for that liberalism really waned in the 1930s and 1970s (i.e. Great Depression and Stagflation).

    After the economy picked up again in the early to mid 90′s we saw a massive increase in Political Correctness (i.e. Liberalism/Leftism). Economy started to falter in the late 90′s and early 2000s and that hard PC push soon waned.

    Now we have a population that does not get that affected by a middling-to-poor economy (i.e. the New Elite, that have not really hurt much at all during the last 13 years) that continues to go on and on about Gay Marriage, Hybrid Vehicles, etc. while the rest double-down on old fashioned issues (i.e. Crime, Economy, etc.)

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ WW

    Sassy describes actual curvy well. Curvy is that you have very specific body shape and curves – you have an hour glass figure so you have curves at your hips, bust, and possibly ass.

    Curvy does not mean that you have curves because you have rolls of fat, ugh.

    To me the biggest attraction is generated not by a specific ‘set’ of these numbers, but by them being well proportioned. Someone having a crazy hip to waist ratio without any ass or bust looks weird. Having an ass but not the other two also weird, as well as sporting D bust size without any hips or ass. With those proportions height can make a big difference on emphasizing them as well.

    I can find myself equally attracted to someone with a B cup, some hips, and a small but fit ass at 5’3 ish as someone with a D cup, very distinct hip to waist ratio, and larger but still fit ass at 5’8 (closer to my height at 5’10″). All about proportions being beautiful. I don’t know the genetics, but I’d be willing to wager the attractive proportions signal a boatload of good genes.

    Probably every man that isn’t a chubby chaser would say that he wants to be able to pick you up and be able to have intense make out sessions with your legs around him without even having to worry about his strength giving out. That is usually the cut off for attraction of any male of even moderate attraction – it works well as a rule of thumb for height, weight, and personality. If I can’t picture myself doing that with you because you’re too tall, too overweight, or have too much of a stick up your ass that doing so would cause internal bleeding, then its pretty much over.

  • Stacy

    The reason why the female figure has changed is because the view of sex has changed. Do upper-class women who have stick-thin figures want to have children? No, they contracept all of the time and have casual sex (or serial monogamy over and over again). They prioritize careers and having “liberating experiences” over motherhood and femininity. Do younger guys even want to reproduce? They’re too busy thinking about pornography, pleasure, recreative sex, sex toys, fetishes and whatnot to care about babies. Millenials guys have grown on a hypersexualized society. Any man under 40 has grown in an extremely hypersexualized society and it’s sex, sex, sex. It’s pretty easy just to see why the female body type has changed. Patriarchal culture encourages reproduction and therefore we have curvy women, feminist culture encourages recreation (e.g. contraception, sodomy) and therefore we have either stick-thin women (or obese women). Stick-thin women can’t menstruate and have the body of boys while obese women can’t breathe and probably won’t have successful pregnancies. Our body image has become distored because our view of sex has become distored. On one hand it’s nothing and doesn’t matter (hook-up culture), on the other hand sex is everything (hypersexualization). At first they may look contradictory but are pretty much allies. We have an epidemic of anorexics, extreme fatties and the fake (silicone boobs, etc) because sex has been deprived of genuine nourishment and has been distorted. That’s my 2 cents.

  • Stacy

    I meant “distorted” sorry.

  • WarmWoman

    @Sassy and Lokland

    I have been told by men that I have an hourglass shape. My last boyfriend didn’t want me to succumb to my mom’s pressure to losing weight, because he didn’t want me to lose my curves.

    I read somewhere that men on online sites don’t bother using “curvy” in their search engines, due to the amount of heavy women using it. So, I’ve stuck with the term “average.”

  • SayWhaat

    @ WW:

    When I was online dating I listed my body type as “curvy” in my profile. Then in my profile itself I stated that I was “taking curvy back from the overweight.”

    Complete with a full-body pic for proof. :)

  • Stacy

    I read somewhere that men on online sites don’t bother using “curvy” in their search engines, due to the amount of heavy women using it.

    Obese women make me sick. They have hijacked a beautiful term for their own gain. They’re as sick as the very thin chicks who don’t menstruate. Everything is distorted, there is no balance. I’m happy for Scarlett Johansson. Now THAT’s a curve girl :)

  • Stacy

    Instead of curvy, why don’t these obese women call themselves BBW? That’s more accurate.

  • Stacy

    Wait a minute, it isn’t. Obesity isn’t beautiful )=

  • Stacy

    Primal reaction: I want to impregnate most of the women in the original pics, the retouched ones I just want to have sex with.

    KK has illustrated my point quite vivedly.

  • WarmWoman

    @SayWhaat

    Ha, clever. I knew another woman that also titled her profile “Dangerous curves”ahead.

  • Sassy6519

    @ WarmWoman, SayWhaat, and Stacy

    I agree with all of you. Actual curvy women can’t use the term anymore because very overweight/obese women have taken it over for their own usage. On my Okcupid profile, my body type is listed as average, but I authentically have a curvy body.

    Trying to wrestle that term away from fat acceptance groups doesn’t seem like it’s worth the effort though. They can keep curvy. I’ll take “stacked” instead.

  • WarmWoman

    Don’t they have “voluptuous” as a term on okcupid? I’m not sure what that means in the online world now these days either. They should have an “hourglass” option. ;)

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Oh, shit, you mean okcupid makes you choose one of these options from a drop down list of ‘what is your body type’ or something?

    No wonder the term is being taken over on dating sites. I can see voluptuous going the same way in that situation, just as you’re saying Warm Woman.

    Petition for the hourglass option, and then beat off the (truely, not skinny shaming) anorexic girls that will try and take it with a stick. Shouldn’t be hard, I bet a fan would do too.

  • pvw

    Warm Woman:

    Voluptuous? Hourglass?

    My reply:

    I agree, to be really accurate, they probably should use words like pear, hourglass, rectangle, apple, inverted triangle!

    I have always thought of voluptuous as meaning being “stacked,” ie., large breasts.

    Even then, what is average for what, compare to what? I would love to know, what proportion of women have what type of shape today?

    An overweight pear shape might look more like some of the women in the classical photos in that all of the weight is in the hips. An overweight apple shape might have everything in the waist area, same for an overweight inverted triangle, but more might show up in the breast/chest area.

    An overweight hourglass might have weight all around, but in proportion…here I think of a plus size model like Ashley Graham. That seems to be the trend in plus size models, hourglass figures, curvy, but bigger.

    What about bone structure? A small frame, medium frame, large frame? Different types of frames will carry weight differently. Someone had an interesting site on this once, a photographic bmi chart, where people of the same weight and height posted their photos and you could see the differences in bone structure within one size/height or across the same weight but at a different height….

  • Jess

    Rum re 49,

    thats fine as long as women can divorce guys the minute they lose hair or show a bit of middle age spread….

    Truth is, as you get older, gravity, sedentary jobs/lifestyles and calories take their toll. This is true for both genders.

    Generally speaking girls are more forgiving than guys when it cones to looks- you are now suggesting guys should be even stricter?

  • http://permanentguest.wordpress.com PermanentGuest

    Funny how half of these posts seem to devolve into a discussion of skinny vs ‘curvy’ women.

  • someINTP

    Hi Susan

    Giselle Bundchen is the highest paid model in the world, but I don’t find her quite so attractive. I meet many women whom I consider far more attractive than Mrs. Bundchen — though not so well paid. I’m sure they might be thrilled to hear that. I also hear that Mrs. Bundchen is one of the most difficult models to collaborate with. So, she’s not that beautiful (to me) and she doesn’t have a good personality. As you can see, I am completely lost as why she is elevated as the western ideal. Asians and Westerners sometimes differ in what they find beautiful in women. I have to study hard to understand these things. For that, I must treat human culture and human biology separately. What does our biology have to say and what is learned behavior capable of overriding? This is the way I try to understand the sexes until a better idea emerges.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy

    I’d suggest you describe yourself as a “brick house”

  • Passer_By

    From Susan’s post:

    “For every $5000 extra a woman earns over her partner, their risk of divorce goes up by 5%.”

    No doubt this will be spun as being a consequence of male insecurity instilled by the patriarchy.

  • Passer_By

    @susan
    “That is what we are seeing now. Giselle Bundchen has a WGR of close to .9, but plenty of guys would say she’s smokin.”

    Only because she’s Giselle Bundchen, and they are lemmings. Put an unknown woman with the same ratio in front of them, and most guys would not like the body type so much.

    If there is one benefit of internet porn, it’s that guys have a variety of options to choose from in private and to decide what their boner most responds to. Oh, who am I kidding? There are lots of benefits of internet porn. :)

  • Passer_By

    As to the pictures in the project, some times I liked the first one better, sometimes the second, but, frankly, none of the were great. First of all, she often went overboard in slimming the women. Also, it’s not that the originals were too heavy, it’s that their tits were too small (for my taste) on a woman of that body type, and none of them were sufficiently hour glassed.

  • BuckeyeBri

    Okay, apparently I need educated. WGR…please break out that acronym for me? Because if it’s anything related to waist-hip ratio, then Gisele is, as I pointed out earlier, almost a dead-on .7, not a point .9. Can you clear that up before my head explodes from people repeating this .9 number? lol

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BuckeyeBri

      Sorry to be late in responding, I was on a weekend yoga retreat. Namaste. WGR was a typo, sorry. I meant WHR – waist to hip ratio.

      WGR…please break out that acronym for me? Because if it’s anything related to waist-hip ratio, then Gisele is, as I pointed out earlier, almost a dead-on .7, not a point .9. Can you clear that up before my head explodes from people repeating this .9 number? lol

      The published measurements of Gisele are clearly faked. Here’s the proof (The woman on the right has a WHR of .7):

      gb

  • Sassy6519

    @ Passer_By

    I’d suggest you describe yourself as a “brick house”

    *Whips out a microphone*

    Chorus:
    She’s a brick—-house
    She’s mighty mighty, just lettin’ it all hang out
    She’s a brick—-house
    The lady’s stacked and that’s a fact,
    ain’t holding nothing back.

    She’s a brick—-house
    She’s the one, the only one,
    Built like an amazon

  • Passer_By
  • Passer_By

    @buckeyebri

    I just checked out a bunch of pictures of her. There is no way those measurements are accurate. Her waste is maybe a little bigger than that (not much), and her hips seem much smaller.

  • BuckeyeBri

    @Passer_By

    Do keep in mind at her height (5’11″), the distance between her waist and her hips is going to be longer, removing a more than a bit of curvature. I’d rather go with the measurements provided on several sites than to guess. I’m not going to distort facts just because it fits a certain narrative. Now, if someone can provide anywhere that gives her measurements in such a way that you can get a .9 WHR out of it, I’ll gladly stand corrected.

  • Passer_By

    @bri

    I’ll trust my lyin’ eyes over her promotional team. But suit yourself.

    In the unlikely event your explanation is true, then taller women probably need a lower ratio.

  • BuckeyeBri

    @Passer_By

    I understand that some people prefer to disbelieve information that doesn’t fit their picture of a situation, so suit yourself.

    I do agree that in order to be height proportionate for her measurements, she probably needs a bigger chest and bigger set of hips, but her height combined with her measurements is HIGHLY believable. But once again, as you suggest to me, suit yourself.

    I, for one, don’t find her all that attractive, but it’s not like men who are into her are suddenly lusting after telephone-pole shaped women either, as was suggested.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Sassy

    I heard that song somewhere in the background.

    An exception that proves the rule:

    There was one chubby girl in the dorm who most guys agreed was beautiful. Her face was in the dictionary of slang under “dish”. She had beautiful dark hair and eyes, a brilliant smile, and clear skin that tanned to an edible milk chocolate over winter break when her family went to Florida. Getting her to talk was like pulling teeth.

    One fall I ran into her after she dropped the extra weight. She still looked great. She didn’t smile as much. She still didn’t hold up her end of a conversation.

    “Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly goes to the bone.”

    Almost every woman can manage being not-ugly all the way to the bone.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Yeah Frankie,
    Because a man wanting a woman that provides something that he finds important – an attractive wife – in return to his providing security is SO MISOGYNISTIC.

    Save us. Slay the vile dragon of misogyny before it burns down the forest in our way of seeing the truth.

  • Rum

    Frankie
    I got a nearly identical response when I made a brief comment a few days ago about the hazards of teaching girls/women that they were morally superior to men. And today you went straight to the ad homineme attack while bypassing completely the content of what I actually wrote. Now, who is the troll here?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      Sorry I was not around to delete Frankie’s comment earlier. He’s obviously into shaming you gratiuitously – I’m sure you didn’t lose sleep over it.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    I had a good reconciliatory post all ready to go regarding our dust-up. In a nutshell, I thought you were sucking up to your target audience (I became cryptic as I started to question the accuracy/appropriateness of that take on things), but figured out a more productive way to look at things over the last week.

    As I was checking over the rest of that thread to see if there was anything else that came up there that I needed to address (it was interesting to see how what I had to say was interpreted, and at times misinterpreted) I was taken completely aback at what you decided to do to Olive. The thing that came immediately to mind was Clinton’s treatment of Lewinsky pre-blue dress.

    I’m sorry to say this, but I do not believe that I can any longer participate in your blog. I don’t imagine that you are entirely disappointed at this decision, and I regret that deeply.

    You do have a bias (we all do) – it is toward the success of this venture, but that doesn’t justify in my mind your treatment of Olive, even were you correct about how her presence here affected that success.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      I was taken completely aback at what you decided to do to Olive. The thing that came immediately to mind was Clinton’s treatment of Lewinsky pre-blue dress.

      I’m sorry to say this, but I do not believe that I can any longer participate in your blog. I don’t imagine that you are entirely disappointed at this decision, and I regret that deeply.

      You do have a bias (we all do) – it is toward the success of this venture, but that doesn’t justify in my mind your treatment of Olive, even were you correct about how her presence here affected that success.

      You will indeed be missed. Unfortunately, Olive got caught in the crossfire of a battle between myself and some foes of HUS, who sought to promote Olive’s views in the service of a deep-rooted antagonism, reflecting both distrust and loathing of women. It was ugly, stressful and painful for Olive, and I assure you for myself as well.

      Being away for a weekend retreat really helped me to clarify my vision for the blog. No more negative energy. There’s been a malignancy here (not Olive) and HUS needs to heal from that. Olive is always welcome here, and her blog is also on my blogroll. I encourage you to check out her blog moving forward, she’s a thoughtful and intelligent writer.

  • Desiderius

    I would be remiss is not thanking the many commenters (JM, Olive, Hope, Ana, Escoffier, Mike C, Badger, Esau, Caroline, Leap, TMunson, and many others – my apologies if I’ve forgotten anyone) for providing conversation of such rare intimacy, insight, and intelligence.

    Your company will be dearly missed.

  • Caelaeno

    @Lockland

    “Being an underweight BMI is nearly frickin impossible unless your dead or poor. ”

    False. While I am neither dead, poor, nor anorexic, I fall just under the normal BMI range at 17.6.

    (I am, however, on the freakishly tall end of the spectrum at 6′, which definitely skews things. I’d have to agree with the commenters that have made the point that relative curvature decreases with height–I’m at a 0.7 WHR, but I really wouldn’t classify myself as curvy.)

  • Esau

    On a more frivolous link note, today’s Dilbert is a must-read; I think this link will work

    http://wpcomics.washingtonpost.com/client/wpc/dt/2012/03/10/

    Really sums it up, imho.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      Did you catch Scott Adams’ essay on Men’s Rights a while back? He took it down pretty quickly after being attacked by feminists, but it was very interesting and a welcome addition to the debate while it lasted.

  • purplesneakers

    There was one chubby girl in the dorm who most guys agreed was beautiful. Her face was in the dictionary of slang under “dish”. She had beautiful dark hair and eyes, a brilliant smile, and clear skin that tanned to an edible milk chocolate over winter break when her family went to Florida. Getting her to talk was like pulling teeth.

    One fall I ran into her after she dropped the extra weight. She still looked great. She didn’t smile as much. She still didn’t hold up her end of a conversation.

    “Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly goes to the bone.”

    Almost every woman can manage being not-ugly all the way to the bone.

    Did you ever consider that-

    a) she was shy before she lost weight, and possibly she was shy *because* she was not thin

    and b) she was still shy afterwards, and possibly standoffish because it was probably clear from the way guys (possibly including you) looked at and talked to her now was a lot nicer and more eager

  • purplesneakers

    that should be b) she was possibly standoffish because it was clear from the way guys looked at and talked to her that they cared about her existence a lot more, and were a lot nicer and more eager as a result

  • Rum

    Frankie
    Of course I deserve ad hominem attacks. We all do. Shit, if humans got what they deserved, we would all be on Devils Island. Maybe, in a way, we already are…
    Which is precisely why I think that maintaining a gyno-suprematist mindset tends to make a person a little un-hinged. All sense of balance and porportion tends to get lost and a person starts projecting too much onto others.

  • purplesneakers

    I mean, a guy is not in a good place if he falls in lust with a repulsive celluite fire-plug with deranged ideas of her actual self-worth.

    “Self-worth” is a different thing than “attractiveness to men.” Unless you’re saying that fat women are worthless human beings. Which is probably what you mean to say, and probably what all the posters here think too.

  • WarmWoman

    All women and men have worth as a human being. Your weight isn’t indicative of your self-worth. It’s just my own preference that I’m not attracted to heavier people, just like some people may not like my body either.

  • Lindsay

    I have an inverted triangle build with narrow hips, broad shoulders, and big boobs. This means, according to critics, that I am “not a real women.” Cool, I guess I’m a man. Or maybe I’m an android. Rick Santorum slams me because I don’t want to give birth – besides having no interest in children or motherhood, it would be painful and risky. Amanda Marcotte asserts I am giving women eating disorders. Both of them need better ways to occupy their time.

    Some people will find something to pick on, and have. That’s their problem, not mine. I’ve come to realize that even when women have perfect hourglass shapes, people find something to pick apart, so I’ve quit worrying about it.

  • WarmWoman

    “I’ve come to realize that even when women have perfect hourglass shapes, people find something to pick apart, so I’ve quit worrying about it.”

    Yep, I’ve seen women with hourglass figures post on forums only to have male posters say “You’re too thick. The ideal woman is supposed to be slim and toned.”

    Can’t please everyone…too bad for them!

  • Lokland

    @ WW

    Thats so warm and fuzzy gives me goosebumps. So whats the worth of a human being? Or whats worthy about a human being?

    We all have it, what is it worth. My inclination would be that human beings aren’t really worth anything except what we are worth to one another.

  • Rum

    PurpleSeekere
    No. I am really trying to remind everyone here that we are essentionally all trolls on here. We are all the easily bored kind of people who really need to make a dent in the world every now and then to feel alive. And feeling alive is no small thing.
    Whatever, but it apparently took like 20 hours and 75 plus lame, irellevant comments before someone noticed that my comment – bomb regarding “her actual self worth” was just a fooking joke.
    Children; …”Self worth” cannot be translated into “actual self worth” without a massive dose injection of absurdity.

  • Passer_By

    @rum
    “No. I am really trying to remind everyone here that we are essentionally all trolls on here. We are all the easily bored kind of people who really need to make a dent in the world every now and then to feel alive. And feeling alive is no small thing.”

    Wow, man, that’s some really heavy shit. I’m gonna have to ponder that for while.

  • Lokland

    @ Caroline

    dead, poor or excessively tall.

    Work for you?

  • Caelaeno

    @Lokland

    I’ll take it. =)

    I’m just not a huge fan of generalizations about body type. Beauty and health are both multivariate, and there are always outliers.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Frankie

    Wow. Haha. Yup. Because I DEMAND model bodies to be able to date. Thats totally it. You hit me, spot on. My heart has been hit and is suddenly bleeding.

    Ignore all my own writings on personality, on femininity, on personality. Forget about all the ways that I look for the woman to actually live up to the same EQUAL EXPECTATIONS she demands as a man. Obviously that I have opinions or expectations at all means I’m misogynistic and holding women down to the male, patriarchal ideal.

    Never mind that its a woman whose expectations I have to meet that also needs to meet my own.

    I obviously am a piece of trash that no decent woman should admire – not Susan, Charm, Sassy, Warm Woman. They should see me as the villian I am and banish me to the place where men working as janitors to provide for their families while supporting an ex wife are banished to.

    Never mind the discussions of intellect I can start with Vox, Rollo, Dalrock, Jesus Mahony, Desi, Mega Man. Nope. Take away my testicles and serve them to the masses.

    You sicken me. Your attacks on confidence and ideas are more deflective yet destructive then the majority of MRA’s. You have elevated yourself to the upper echelon of hatred.

    I only wished it was a lonely place instead of the party it seems to be.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Keep taking things out of context. Keep branding us as hate machines. Keep banning us, vilifying us, keeep alienating us.

    Keep us on the sidelines.

    Keep us from your daughters, from your friends. Dear god keep us from yourselves.

    See how that works for you. To instead of discriminating towards a minority that you don’t interact with to discriminate towards the people you want to marry.

    We’ll surprise society with our determiniation. We’ll surprise you. But most of all…..

    We’lll surprise ourselves.

  • Candide

    I’d take the chubby Venus in the original paintings thank you very much. The problem is, the modern women who would quote that as an example of “curvy is beautiful” are inevitably way fatter and nowhere near as attractive.

  • Lindsay

    Where I lose patience is with comments like the one upthread, where it was insinuated that women who don’t want kids are rich snobs rejecting motherhood out of vanity and narcissism while they slut it up all over town. My health issues and my total lack of interest in parenthood aren’t anyone’s business but mine, but are great reasons not to have kids. My choice is the best one, not only for me, but for society too (though I don’t much care what society has to say, given that many of its members loathe me anyway).

    It gets tiresome to be accused of hijacking and ruining womanhood simply because we make different choices. The way critics like that talk, it’s as though childless women were personally snatching their babies, throwing out their high heeled-shoes and makeup collections, grinding their freshly baked cakes and washed linens into the dirt, and forcing them to work high-pressure corporate jobs at gunpoint.

    Maybe some people take the view that life is supposed to consist of committing decades at a time to activities you intensely dislike, and being miserable as a result, maybe because it’s proper. Bully for them.

  • Lindsay

    After thinking about it some more, I’ve come to the realization that women don’t like each other much. The harshest critics of other women’s appearances, jobs, children (or lack thereof), marriages, boyfriends, girlfriends, and pets are inevitably their “sisters,” those same “sisters” who sell ridiculous magazines and stupid talk shows that instruct women on what they’re expected to care about.

    But the sisterhood was all a lie.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lindsay

      But the sisterhood was all a lie.

      Sadly, I agree. Intrasexual female competition will trump all but the closest bonds, and sometimes even those.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Lindsay
    Susan has never made a post about motherhood and other commenter had expressed the same desire you have with no repercussions. Why venting here?

  • Lindsay

    I’m sorry to say this, but I do not believe that I can any longer participate in your blog.

    I’ve come to decide that I agree. We have different reasons, I imagine. In my case, it’s that the discussion has reached its natural end for me. I got what I needed out of it, learned what I wanted, and it’s time to move on. I don’t want to argue with people, and I’m not here to change minds.

    There have been some cool people. Susan was a gracious host. The straight world is very different from mine, and my challenges are different from yours. That’s how it goes. I’m proud of who I am, and hopefully, you all find your happiness too.

    I’ll return to my world now. Thanks for the visit. Be well. Goodnight.

  • Just1X

    @Lindsay

    you might be on to something

    “Misogynist: A man who hates women as much as women hate one another.
    H. L. Mencken
    US editor (1880 – 1956)”

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    Stacy at 54,
    What great insight you have.
    Sure, it is a generalisation, but I believe your point is made perfectly.

    You are a sensible one, if you don’t mind me saying so.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Love the game advice from Danny’s Paw-Paw. It’s 100% spot on.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Lindsay and Desiderius,

    Sorry to see the both of you go. I liked reading what you had to say.

  • Esau

    Stacy at 54: “upper-class women … prioritize careers and having “liberating experiences” over motherhood and femininity.”

    The (sainted, by some) Camille Paglia said recently (IIRC) that the modern idealized female image, ie thin and toned, is the result of valuing efficiency over either beauty or fertility. I’m not quite positive what she meant, but Stacy’s comment above reminded me of that.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @95 purplesneakers

    Did I touch a nerve? Sorry. The point I was so ineptly trying to make is that looks aren’t enough. She opened me that time after she dropped the weight. After we exhausted the “you didn’t recognize me” subject we were stuck.

    Susan: I suggest a post on “The Art of Conversation”.

    “There is no such thing as courage. There is only trained and untrained.”

  • Dinkney Pawson

    I hit “Submit” too soon. (I don’t like that word.)

    “The Art of Conversation with Men“.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Esau,

    Paglia makes an interesting point, but I think that’s too simplistic a conclusion to draw. Two things contradict it, and they’re both boobs.

    That’s not to say that I would completely discount the theory, only point out that there are other factors at play, such as a hyper-sexualized media. Maybe the boyish body with boobs look is a result of women trying to be all things in society.

  • J

    First of all, she often went overboard in slimming the women.

    Yep, I’ve seen women with hourglass figures post on forums only to have male posters say “You’re too thick. The ideal woman is supposed to be slim and toned.”

    Roissy’s ideal women seem to range from anorexics on the thin side to fashion models on the thick side.

  • Passer_By

    I love the “Goodbye Cruel HUS!” posts! They remind me of way back in the day when I used to post a lot on a certain college team forum – everybody kind of came to know each other (and in many cases dislike each other), and opinions would get heated – far more heated than the manosphere, believe it or not. Inevitably, you would see a “Goodbye Cruel XXX” type post, mostly directed at the moderators, and then the guy would be back in a week or two. lol

    P.S. This isn’t directed at Linsday who doesn’t seem angry – just seems to have concluded she has gleaned what she can.

  • Wudang
  • jessdixonjess@yahoo.com

    Lindsay & Susan,
    Im sorry you both feel that way.

    I have generally found most men and women are honourable and loyal to their friends.

    Yeah, I could provide examples of very intra sexual male and female comptition leading to disloyal conduct but this is the exception rather than the rule.

    And invariably alcohol was involved.

  • Maggie

    “Sadly, I agree. Intrasexual female competition will trump all but the closest bonds, and sometimes even those”

    Are you saying that a women can’t trust other women unless there is the closest of bonds between them? And maybe not even then?

    I’m surprised that some commenters feel this blog is biased toward women. With statements like this, it feels just the opposite.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Maggie

      I’ve written before about having had female bosses – every one was a nightmare. Why? Because to a woman in business, a female subordinate is a threat. I’ve seen best friends fall out again and again over a boy – not even a quality boy, but some douche. Two friends of mine have stopped returning my calls since I got mentioned in The Atlantic. I am not biased towards men or women. I tell it like I see it.

  • WarmWoman

    +1 with Susan. Here’s my motto in life

    “If a man or a woman is not treating you with the proper respect, you think kiss my ass.” You don’t have to say it to their face, but your actions convey it.:P

  • Maggie

    I remember the post. Fortunately, my experience with female bosses was more positive. The only true mentor I had was a women boss .

    This thread seems to have a lot of negativity re women. It’s jarring to see comments nit-picking on women’s bodies — women are too fat, too thin, hips too small, etc. I don’t see this over-analysis of men’s bodies.

    It’s sad that “friends” have not retuned your calls. It must be jealousy or insecurity on their part. I think it would be cool to have a friend quoted like that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This thread seems to have a lot of negativity re women. It’s jarring to see comments nit-picking on women’s bodies — women are too fat, too thin, hips too small, etc. I don’t see this over-analysis of men’s bodies.

      Oof, this is child’s play.

      You know, I highlighted Giordano’s work because as a woman I find the sociology and history of the female form very interesting. We’ve evolved to value fertility cues, i.e. beauty, yet the standards do shift quite perceptibly over time. It seems that they may be influenced by war, economic depression, and other anxieties. As someone who generally writes with a female audience in mind, I included the link because I recently heard several young women talking about it with some fascination. What was not mentioned – and was certainly not the goal of my posting it here – was to ask guys which they think is hotter. It really has nothing to do with men. So I was taken aback by guys viewing this as a “skinny shaming” post or some kind of marketing effort to get men to partner with obese women.

      To be fair, the discussion went in a different direction with the participation of both sexes, and there was some shaming of muscular guys vs. skinny guys too.

      And I’m guilty of participating by posting my favorite pic of Gisele Bundchen, ever.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Maggie,

    We were actually discussing different male body types on a recent thread. We don’t discriminate when it comes to nit-picking. :P

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “The 20s, as I mentioned in the post, glorified the boyish figure with no breasts or waistline. It certainly wasn’t men who drove that, it was something else – something happening in society. Post WWI, the era of Prohibition, the fact that women had thrown away their corsets? The 20s were also quite promiscuous – those boyish young girls were getting busy, and the men snapped them up.”

    I’ve always found the 20s interesting from this perspective. It was probably the first big cultural shift in how men and women interacted. Regarding the flapper look, I kind of find it appealing because it is an old-fashioned style looking back on it. I recall reading that it was a natural outgrowth of the Gibson Girl look of the 1890s to 1910s. I wish I could upload a picture to show the similarities.

    Women were joining the workforce and consumer culture was just beginning, which probably fueled the rapid changes in clothing style and beauty standards. However, 1/2 the population was still rural in the 1920s, so although the flapper look was seen as “popular”, it certainly didn’t represent the average woman. Maybe they were the first socially acceptable niche “bad girls”.

    I know suffragettes didn’t particurly appreciate the image of women flappers were promoting (i.e. drinking alcohol, staying out all night, listening to jazz). While the period was a lot looser sexually, that’s not saying much given that young people were rebelling against super-strict Victorian tradition. Promiscuity in the 20s was probably a far cry from what we have today. I also recall reading that “petting parties” were popular amongst the urban crowd. Basically, people getting together and somebody’s place, drinking and dancing, and then making out. The girls usually put a stop to things before anything sexual actually happened. Sound like the early hookup scene? : )

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      I also recall reading that “petting parties” were popular amongst the urban crowd. Basically, people getting together and somebody’s place, drinking and dancing, and then making out. The girls usually put a stop to things before anything sexual actually happened. Sound like the early hookup scene? : )

      Sounds like 6th grade. Seriously. Have you heard of rainbow parties? Those generally kick in by 7th or 8th.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_party_(sexuality)

      Wikipedia claims they’re an urban myth, so they just may be plain old blowjob parties.

  • jessdixonjess@yahoo.com

    Maggie,

    “I’m surprised that some commenters feel this blog is biased toward women. With statements like this, it feels just the opposite.”

    I wouldn’t read some of the other threads then- this is nothing!

    I couldn’t agree more about the ludicrous ‘female boss’ accusation.

    I have had outstanding and awful bosses of both genders.

    I have also known guys and girls alike avoid romantic liaisons that may have upset their close friends- kinda like the Ross and Joey situation but they didn’t do what Joey & Rachel did (in Friends).

    Its funny because normally Susan asserts that personal observation is redundant and only data is viable- haven’t seen her data on terrible female bosses though- but may have missed it I guess.

    I daresay there will some data on general middle manager misconduct/indiscipline somewhere that could be filtered for gender.

    In the meantime, as Susan appears to be allowing direct observation on this theme- I have found the most miscreant managers to be male.

    They are sometimes too blunt and cannot change their mind when needed to, even when all around are advising them too (they perceive it as weakness)
    They can sometimes take criticism very badly indeed and find it harder to multi task.
    They often fine it very difficult in sensitive or complex situations with colleagues when emotional intelligence is required of the leader.
    They are much more likely to be found guilty of gross misconduct like theft, disrepute or sexual harassment.

    What I have just said is a massive generalisation of course- most male and female bosses I have known have been great – but if I had to say, gun to head, which were better managers/leaders on average then I think, by a smallish margin, women were.

    As to who is best at holding grudges, I have known both genders hold grudges for decades- its most certainly not a female preserve.

    And when I think back to when things got heated in the work place/office, how often has it been that guys have resorted to shouting and even minor violence but the women circle round and try and diffuse things.

    I have known the occasional ultra sensitive woman who couldn’t get on with anyone but there is most certainly a male equivalent- its just he wears trousers- thats the difference.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Two friends of mine have stopped returning my calls since I got mentioned in The Atlantic. I am not biased towards men or women. I tell it like I see it.

    To be fair my male boss once told me that I will know who was my real friend in the literary world once I won my first award. Funny enough all the backstabbers were males in that aspect they liked me as their secretary not as competition. Of course this is a cultural difference Latinas compete for looks no brains once the hottest one is established the things get some sort of stable. Also if there is a woman that is the queen and a new one appears things can get ugly. I think is good to recognize our catty tendencies in order to tame them. Being blind to it doesn’t help anyone.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…”wo friends of mine have stopped returning my calls since I got mentioned in The Atlantic.”

    Were they writers/aspiring writers?…or just broad-spectrum jealousy?

    (Or, was there maybe something in the Atlantic article or on this blog that really offended them?)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      Were they writers/aspiring writers?…or just broad-spectrum jealousy?

      They’re both aspiring writers. One is trying to get her first novel published and the other is submitting a lot of stories for publication. I get it, I do. I’m not angry with either one. I’m sure each of them would say, “I’ve been busy.” But it’s been five months and it feels like a real loss. One is a woman I met while acting in 1992. We wrote and performed a two-woman show together in 1995, and have been close ever since. I miss her. The other was more of an occasional lunch or walk friend – a former neighbor. Maybe it’s coincidence and I’m being paranoid, who knows. My point was, I don’t think guys do this. This kind of friendship drama is uniquely female.

  • purplesneakers

    Rum – well, I’m not trolling, but thanks for admitting you are! Haha.

    Pinkney- Yeah, sorry, it did kind of hit a personal sore spot. But tbh I have trouble making conversation with people I don’t know that well, whether they’re men or women. People have thought that I was cold upon first meeting me, and later came to see that I’m not. Though I would also appreciate an “Art of Conversation with Men” post, though I suspect that it would be highly variable, depending on the man/type of man. For example, I find it wayy easier to talk to guys of different races from similar academic backgrounds than to talk to more ‘normal’ guys of my own race.

    I also find it surprising when manosphere bloggers think this site is biased towards women. FWIW my boss is awesome, but she’s a super-old lesbian and we’re not in a high-stakes work environment. I will be shifting to one of those soon enough, and after reading all this stuff here I’m a little bit wary of gender politics in that kind of workplace. I just hate workplace politics in general. Now I have to pay attention to how I interact with men vs. women, too?!

  • Dogsquat

    What do man look for in wife? Extreme necessary she pull plow when tractor break down. Maybe I buy fancy Capitalist tractor one day instead of tractor from Grozny Factory #135, eh? Maybe then I only keep one wife. With piece-of-crap Grozny tractor break-down all times, need two wifes.

    Pick two heavy women for wife. Heavy is good. Heavy is sign of reliability.

    Actually, I was so offended by something else I was doing that I stopped and posted here. Maintain that balance in the Universe, you know.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      OH, OH, OH, OH, OH. DOGSQUAT IS BACK.

      Dogsquat, darling, we have missed you so much. Did you hear our cries of longing? Did you feel me worrying about you like a long lost child? How wonderful it is to see you alive and kicking – hilarious as ever. Welcome back, prodigal son.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hey, Dogsquat… How’s life going?

  • Maggie

    “And I’m guilty of participating by posting my favorite pic of Gisele Bundchen, ever”

    Actually, this is an important point. The pictures of Gisele, Victoria’s Secret models and lately the Sports Illustrated issue were plastered everywhere as the ulitmate standard for female beauty. These models admit to starving themselves before these shoots and because they are so thin their fake breasts implants look awful. Gisele’s breasts look like rectangles! And yet this is the standard of what women should look like. What an incredible amount of stress we put on young women today.

  • Dogsquat

    Hiya, Susan!

    I just got busy. School and work and all the other goofy crap I do. Danny emailed me the other day, and I was shocked at how long it’s been since I read anything other than a textbook.

    I missed it here, though. I spend a lot of time memorizing stuff, and less time actually thinking than I’d like. This is a good place for thinking, and I need to participate more.

    Jesus, things are going so well that it’s making me a little nervous. Good grades, enough money, interesting work, and the best ol’ lady a guy could meet. I haven’t felt this good since Katie S. (French!) kissed me under the bleachers in 9th Grade. I am disgustingly happy.

    No, seriously – I make me want to puke I’m so happy. The next step is for me to get a little smarmy about it.

    I am, as we all are, a work in progress.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat

      Good grades, enough money, interesting work, and the best ol’ lady a guy could meet.

      That makes my day, I’m so glad. Anyway, we get that you’re super busy. Just know that we’re always happy to see you and have a laugh.

  • Dogsquat

    One thing about female body types I haven’t seen brought up on this thread:

    Those runway model gals are going for a very specific look. Their whole job is to look good in photographs. That’s it. When you meet them in person, they look a little…off.

    Put Ms. Bundchen in a bar next to a random NFL cheerleader. Then watch who Danny starts telling dirty jokes to first. That’s your answer.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Then watch who Danny starts telling dirty jokes to first.

      Yeah, I think that Danny would make an excellent professional barometer of what guys like. It’s no wonder he’s besieged by female readers writing for his advice.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, funny thing, all my female bosses have been extremely good to me. The (few) problems I have had have been with male bosses. I suppose lady bosses are nicer to male minions than they are to female minions?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      I suppose lady bosses are nicer to male minions than they are to female minions?

      Yes, I think it comes from an attitude of scarcity – only so many women can make it to the top, so better knock your female competitors out of the way as you rise.

      I’ve seen female bosses get a lot of male validation from subordinates, even to the point where guys feel uncomfortable, like they’re being put in the position of affirming the woman’s attractiveness. It’s a form of sexual harassment, really, if it’s tied to job performance or rewards.

  • OffTheCuff

    What an incredible amount of stress we put on young women today.

    No sympathy. Zero.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OffTheCuff

      What an incredible amount of stress we put on young women today.

      No sympathy. Zero.

      I don’t recall if you have a daughter, but I hope you’ll at least make an exception for her, especially if she succumbs to an all-too-common eating disorder or other mental illness.

  • Passer_By

    “Two friends of mine have stopped returning my calls since I got mentioned in The Atlantic. ”

    Maybe they were sluts or sex pos feminists, and the article inspired them to visit your site. Or maybe they just read one of Doug1′s comments. :)

  • Escoffier

    BTW, this is from a Caitlyn Flanagan article, and from memory at that so I may have it all wrong, but as I recall, she wrote a long piece (in the Atlantic) in which she described how she became aware of this supposed BJ epidemic among Jr. High girls and was all shocked. She looked into it and found it to be overblown. (Heh.)

    Anyway, the rainbow party was apparently concocted by an author of “young adult” fiction and Flanagan could not find a single instance of anything like it ever having happened anywhere. At least not reported.

    That said, surveys do show much higher rates of oral sex at younger ages than in past eras.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Anyway, the rainbow party was apparently concocted by an author of “young adult” fiction and Flanagan could not find a single instance of anything like it ever having happened anywhere. At least not reported.

      It was an idea that went viral, and then someone wrote the YA book. As for finding evidence rainbow parties had happened, what would that evidence have looked like? Seventh graders sharing their favorite party lipsticks?

      I do know of one Rainbow Party – as least someone reported one to me – in the middle school at Milton Academy. You may recall that is the school where a girl was caught playing Stoneface in the boys locker room with the hockey team. I’m sure if Caitlin Flanagan flew all over the country seeking Stoneface confessions, she wouldn’t get those either. I have also heard that Rainbow Parties were common at Bar Mitzvahs as a special gift to the celebrant. Here’s what I’ve never understood about that – can a 13 year old boy last long enough to have his penis in half a dozen mouths? Or does he ejaculate multiple times? Stoneface, with one girl and half a dozen guys, seems more realistic.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    DogSquat – Holy crap man! Long time no see!

    I’m glad things are going well for you, and glad you are back even if it is only on occasion. I was beginning to feel like on outcast of the outliers. Even Jesus M seems to think I’m partially full of shit these days, but to be honest that isn’t anything new for me. :P

    Personally, I don’t even think runway models look good in photographs. But then again, I rarely ever see a real “designer’ dress that I find attractive anyway. I don’t know who they design those dresses for, but it isn’t for men to get turned on by.

  • Emily

    I don’t mean this in a shame-y way, but it’s not just “gay men and fashion editors” that prefer thin women. I can buy that guys don’t like the high fashion catwalk models, but IME they’re very into the Victoria’s Secret body type.

    Just look at which girls are getting the “high status” males. Or ask any guy to name his ultimate celebrity crush, and at least 90% of the time it will be somebody with a BMI below 20.

    It’s not like most guys actually expect their girl to look like a Playboy Bunny (any more than any reasonable girl expects her guy to look like a Calvin Klein model), but that’s still definitely the “ideal”.

    Love it or hate it, thin is in.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Emily

      Just look at which girls are getting the “high status” males. Or ask any guy to name his ultimate celebrity crush, and at least 90% of the time it will be somebody with a BMI below 20.

      The “hottest” girls at many colleges are anorexic, and at least some high status guys prefer their girls that thin. I have had one 21 year old male tell me that any size over 0 disgusts him. I also heard of a couple at a sorority formal – as an anorexic girl reached out during dinner to take a roll, her frat star “boyfriend” grabbed her wrist and said, “Restraint.” Then he smirked for the table, and she withdrew her hand and went back to picking at her chicken breast.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Dogsquat,

    That’s awesome, bro. Nice update. Hope things continue to soar.

    Ted,

    I don’t think you’re full of shit–even partially…

  • Ted D

    JM – no worries. I have my good weeks, and my bad ones. ;-)

  • Escoffier

    Add me to the list of those who don’t like sticks (ironic since I am one) and for whom Giselle does nothing. I am sure that a true player would consider my ideal body type a fatty.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Emily,

    I don’t deny that thin is in, but guys enjoy curves. We like hips and boobs and all that. There’s something so…. stalkish about a model like Gisele that isn’t at all attractive.

    I took the liberty of googling some Vicky Secret models (purely for the sake of science) and came up with one that’s thin and yet curvy:

    http://thechive.com/2010/04/20/victorias-secret-has-had-some-ok-talent-over-the-years-39-photos/vic-secret-32/

    I don’t know what her WHR is, but with the angle of the camera and the way her ass is pushed back a bit, she looks sexy. She’s got some curvature.

    This girl:

    http://thechive.com/2010/04/20/victorias-secret-has-had-some-ok-talent-over-the-years-39-photos/vic-secret-1/

    not so much. Cute face, maybe, but it’s childish. And the body is way too boyish. She looks like a kid.

  • Ramble

    I don’t mean this in a shame-y way, but it’s not just “gay men and fashion editors” that prefer thin women. I can buy that guys don’t like the high fashion catwalk models, but IME they’re very into the Victoria’s Secret body type.

    In general, the Victoria Secret Model and SI Swimsuit models are much more likely to have hips than your typical runway model. There is definite overlap (like Giselle), but, girls like Adriana Lima and Marissa Miller definitely have hips.

  • Tony

    I argue that this is not what modern beauty is. What women forget is that skinny alone is not beautiful (plank), low body fat with curves is beautiful.

    More acurately, its proportions. Women forget that its not only side to side proportion (breast, waist, hips) but also up and down. 34, 26, 36 is good, unless your shorter that 4ft something.

  • Emily

    >> “In general, the Victoria Secret Model and SI Swimsuit models are much more likely to have hips than your typical runway model. There is definite overlap (like Giselle), but, girls like Adriana Lima and Marissa Miller definitely have hips.”

    They might have hips, but they’re still undeniably thin. Some of the models might be slightly “curvier” than the others but in terms of body type, it’s still variations on the same theme.

  • Ramble

    They might have hips, but they’re still undeniably thin.

    There is nothing wrong with being thin.

    Personally, I prefer to use terms like Thin and Slim as opposed to “Skinny” since that is so often used derogatively.

    So, unless you see, say, an outline of their ribcage, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being thin (as always, people will have there preferences)

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Many VS models have had breast implants. And all of the VS photos are photoshopped/modified. In fact all “professionally-taken” photos are nowadays, so much so that an unretouched photo would look strange to most people. I know many tricks of the trade because I do some graphic design. I’ve also seen a totally no photoshop/no makeup (or low makeup) compilation of many popular models.

    Extremely low body fat with large curves is virtually impossible for most women, because of the way fat deposits work. They won’t all sit on the chest and butt, but are uniformly distributed throughout the body, with emphasis on certain areas depending on genetics and hormone profiles. Pregnancy, for example, causes breast tissue to grow by a large amount, but also increases fat deposits in the belly, as well as fat retention throughout the body.

    The modern ideal female body of large boobs, large hips, flat tummy and large butt is generally unattainable naturally. So the “second best” is a very thin frame, flat tummy, breast implants, and photoshop. The face is more important than the body, as long as the body is thin. This is the case for VS models.

    Cameras and most lighting conditions tend to flatten out features and add an illusion of fatness, so the average model must be very thin to avoid looking fat on film. Also, in fashion, all models should be similar in size to avoid strange crumpling of fabric which can affect the look of the clothing, therefore boobs should be small rather than large so that it is not a factor. So it is not really because of gay men’s preferences that fashion models are all very thin. It’s just the name of the game.

  • Jason

    Susan,

    I’ve written before about having had female bosses – every one was a nightmare. Why? Because to a woman in business, a female subordinate is a threat. I’ve seen best friends fall out again and again over a boy – not even a quality boy, but some douche. Two friends of mine have stopped returning my calls since I got mentioned in The Atlantic. I am not biased towards men or women. I tell it like I see it.

    Very astute and true imo. I just had a discussion of this nature over lunch with my gf this Saturday. My stance was that men generally have closer bonds, and most females, even to their closest friends, can be guilty of subterfuge. It is what I have observed as well, and I was just telling it like it is. Men will give each other shit, and call out one another when something is up, but that tends to end things and all goes back to normal. Women though, rather than go on one large attack and blow off steam, will continually and gradually needle and nitpick their friends in a way where it just gets under their skin (or breaks them down), but no one point is major. It really is a callous form that a lot of women take.

    When going over my point, the visceral reaction in my gf was evident. She started talking about her best friend, and admitted to me that she has noticed that kind of behavior over the years. At this point, her hand was visibly shaking. She felt bad that she never confronted her friend for these actions, but they really did get to her after building up. Tbh, I don’t think that women even do these things on purpose most times, but it just comes out subconciously and naturally.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      At this point, her hand was visibly shaking. She felt bad that she never confronted her friend for these actions, but they really did get to her after building up. Tbh, I don’t think that women even do these things on purpose most times, but it just comes out subconciously and naturally.

      Yes, it’s a cycle of subterfuge, sometimes conscious and sometimes not. Often the target suppresses a response and goes into denial to keep the friendship intact. Not all women do this, and not all female friendships have this dynamic. But it is far from unusual. The best advice I could give any young women re friendship is to lose the toxic friends, regardless of the perceived social cost. It’s never worth it to be in the entourage of one of these women.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    If I can see ribs, hip bones, leg and arm bones (other than joints like elbow and knee), or clearly see collar or shoulder blades through the skin, I’ll pass.

    In truth, I prefer a little too much “meat” than now enough. and further more, I love a little “mom pouch” (sorry if that term strikes a nerve ladies, I use it as a term of endearment) just below the belly button too.

    Basically, I like a woman to look like she *could* make it a week on little to no food. At least I’d feel like she would make it if there was some catastrophic emergency and we couldn’t eat much for a week or two. Plus, I”m a big guy. I’ve had plenty of women tell me my concerns are unmerited, but I really don’t want to have a romp in the sack with a woman I’m afraid of breaking like a dry twig.

  • Iggles

    @ Emily:

    I don’t mean this in a shame-y way, but it’s not just “gay men and fashion editors” that prefer thin women. I can buy that guys don’t like the high fashion catwalk models, but IME they’re very into the Victoria’s Secret body type.

    Just look at which girls are getting the “high status” males. Or ask any guy to name his ultimate celebrity crush, and at least 90% of the time it will be somebody with a BMI below 20.

    It’s not like most guys actually expect their girl to look like a Playboy Bunny (any more than any reasonable girl expects her guy to look like a Calvin Klein model), but that’s still definitely the “ideal”.

    +1

    Personally, I still don’t get what guys find “hot” about Giselle (her face is quite masculine and she doesn’t have much curves). But it’s incredible how much the “ideal women” has changed over the decades.

    In the 1950s Marilyn, who was not a size 0 and had hips/boobs/curves along with short hair, was widely considered “hot”. By today’s standards I don’t think that would be the case.

    Aubrey Hepburn sported very short hair and no man would argue she wasn’t very feminine. It was apparent in her demeanor and dress. Yet today, men argue long hair is feminine and short hair is inherently masculine..

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    The modern ideal female body of large boobs, large hips, flat tummy and large butt is generally unattainable naturally.

    Absolutely. Just like that body of the steroidal guy on the mortician calendar is unattainable naturally and yet you liked it.

    And I think most guys would agree that a bit soft with curves beats thin and stalky.

  • Rum

    It is maybe a small point, but the job of a fashion model is not just to look good but to make the cloths look good. Obviously, being attractive per se does not get in the way. However, being tall and thin has definite advantages in regard to how the cloths on offer can hang and be porportioned.

    For a clue as to what turns on the male hind brain check the women in high-viewed clips on YouPorn or one of its many clones. For grokking the average guys list of triggers, this is an easy short-cut.
    Likewise, if you want to easily grasp what the average woman wants a c-ck to be like, check out the popular dildo brands. The customer is always right.

  • OffTheCuff

    In the 1950s Marilyn, who was not a size 0 and had hips/boobs/curves along with short hair, was widely considered “hot”. By today’s standards I don’t think that would be the case.

    MM was 35-22-35. She was tiny, and is still hot according to today’s standards – at least if you ask hetero men. Dress sizes mean nothing, due to size inflation over time.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Jesus Mahoney, nah, I don’t like the steroid look. In that discussion, I said take away the visible veins and the 6-packs. I dated a guy who had a 6-pack, and I really disliked it. No 6-pack but nice pecs/biceps is quite achievable for a lot of guys.

    My husband has a build very close to my ideal, and he has said my body type is close to his ideal. Not perfect, but good enough. We aren’t photoshopped or airbrushed, have a bit of flab and some stretch marks, but we don’t spend much time or money on our appearances either.

  • Ceer

    My ideal body type is thin, perhaps a bit tone with small to medium breasts. I’m a bit on the stocky side, so I think my natural preference for mate selection makes sense (producing more average offspring).

    Escoffier is on the thin side, so I’m not surprised he goes for stockier girls.

    In general, I think men value thinner women because women are more likely to gain weight over time, not loose it. Again, law of averages.

  • Rum

    MM in her prime had roughly a 21 inch waist. Her costumes still exist and have been measured.

  • http://deleted Jason
  • Iggles

    @ OffTheCuff

    MM was 35-22-35. She was tiny, and is still hot according to today’s standards – at least if you ask hetero men. Dress sizes mean nothing, due to size inflation over time.

    I didn’t say she was fat. I said, she wouldn’t be the “ideal”.

    If she wanted to get into movies today they would tell her to straighten + grow out her hair, and to lose some weight, so that she would be Jennifer Aniston thin rather than Christina Hendricks (who is gorgeous in my opinion!).

  • Ramble

    Extremely low body fat with large curves is virtually impossible for most women

    Hope, extremely low body fat for women is bad, in general (I am telling you something you already know).

    I knew a pretty girl who really got into working out and diet. She got her body fat so low that she actually stopped menstruating. She had to leave college for a semester and live with her parents so her mother could focus on her diet to get her back to normal.

    Also, extremely low body fat on a girl will take away the suppleness and femininity of her curves. She will, per her bone structure, still have hips, but they will not “round” the way that female hips do.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Tbh, I don’t think that women even do these things on purpose most times, but it just comes out subconciously and naturally.

    You need to remember that female bodies are precious so I think women naturally are less likely to be confrontational as to avoid any physical thread. I have to admit that I was like that when I was young I tried to be nice and not tell my friends that they hurt me with something just to find out that a months after the fact my feelings for them had become less intense and ultimately I ended up not caring to lose to friendship and drifting apart. Once I noticed this I stopped and now I confront them right there. I had kept a lot of good friendships with time, of course some women cannot handle confrontational style no matter what and get defensive and bitchy those I really can’t talk like that but then they really never get any close to them,and I’m sure that helps my marriage too. Instead of letting things eat me away inside I talk and air them and we can move on feelings intact or increased. I totally advice to be confrontational to women as much as possible ever since, YMMV.

  • OffTheCuff

    Iggles: “I said, she wouldn’t be the “ideal”.”

    You did not use the word “ideal”.

    In the 1950s Marilyn, who was not a size 0 and had hips/boobs/curves along with short hair, was widely considered “hot”. By today’s standards I don’t think that would be the case.

    The phrase “this would be the case” refers to “widely considered hot”, so you are saying “By today’s standards, I don’t think she is widely considered hot”. Which is untrue.

  • Ramble

    Personally, I still don’t get what guys find “hot” about Giselle

    Iggles, what guy has a poster of Giselle on their wall? Hell, I would bet good money that even Tom Brady did not have a poster of a girl on his wall that had a similar body type to Giselle…but, the pretty boy DID get to marry a “super model”.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Jason – no thanks man. She is WAY too toned for me. There would be zero “cushion for the pushin”.

  • Ramble

    Susan, after this:
    Personally, I still don’t get what guys find “hot” about Giselle

    and this,

    The “hottest” girls at many colleges are anorexic, and at least some high status guys prefer their girls that thin. I have had one 21 year old male tell me that any size over 0 disgusts him. I also heard of a couple at a sorority formal – as an anorexic girl reached out during dinner to take a roll, her frat star “boyfriend” grabbed her wrist and said, “Restraint.” Then he smirked for the table, and she withdrew her hand and went back to picking at her chicken breast.

    Are you still baffled by the guys who feel the need to point out that the grand majority of us are not interested in girls with eating disorders?

    Or, let’s put it another way: her personality and history aside, when Kim Kardashian first burst on the scene, do you think more guys were interested in downloading her picture, or Giselle’s?

    Yes, there will always be a guy or two who go for that really skinny look (Johnny Depp comes to mind), but, in general, football-loving, poker-playing guys will prefer a girl who is not fat that has hips.

    Also, per that frat-boy with the anorexic gf, it is not surprising that a guy who is interested in controlling his gf would go for one as sickly skinny as she was.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Also, per that frat-boy with the anorexic gf, it is not surprising that a guy who is interested in controlling his gf would go for one as sickly skinny as she was.

      This is a good insight. I wonder if men being interested in rexy girls for status, despite evolved attraction cues, is about control. And what that says about American society and/or the SMP.

      A lot of colleges have websites where people can post their secrets anonymously. They’re very popular, with most of the posters appearing to be women. I’ve read some of them, and it’s actually really sad. There’s a lot on there about dieting, starving to look good, etc. I recall one girl who was freaking out because sorority rush was 3 weeks away and she felt she needed to lose 20 lbs. She planned to starve herself as much as possible to reach the goal in time so that she wouldn’t be passed over by the hot, thin sorority girls.

  • Escoffier

    “what would that evidence have looked like? Seventh graders sharing their favorite party lipsticks?”

    No, but when scandalous things have happened in the past among the young, the generally A) get caught or B) can’t stop talking and so the story eventually gets out and sometimes becomes a National Scandal. B is more likely naturally. Something as horribly scandalous as a rainbow party is likely to eventually be reported and traceable as either verifiable or not. The idea that a two-digit strong passel of middle schoolers could keep something like a secret forever seems very unlikely.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Something as horribly scandalous as a rainbow party is likely to eventually be reported and traceable as either verifiable or not. The idea that a two-digit strong passel of middle schoolers could keep something like a secret forever seems very unlikely.

      I think the lipsticks are a red herring. There’s no doubt that middle school girls are performing blow jobs. When my son was in middle school, two different girls were disciplined for fellating boys on school property, both times in front of other people. My daughter went to an all-girls school, but even there it was well known that girls in the 7th grade were giving head at middle school dances with brother schools. Whether or not they play a particular game with lipsticks is sort of a pesky detail, IMO.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I’ve been underweight before but never stopped menstruating. I did have ribcage bones showing though. This was just before I first got together with my husband. He told me back then I was too skinny and needed to gain some weight. But I felt like I was thin and “not fat,” so I had some body image issues.

    My attitude has changed significantly, and now I am envious of obviously pregnant women with big bellies showing. That is my aspiration now, so I don’t eat too few calories anymore. Not that my body will let me. I am starving all the time, and I’ll get shaky if I go too long without eating. My BMI right now is 20.5, which is well within normal, but I wonder sometimes if I’m gaining weight too quickly (I gained 10lbs in the last 3 months).

  • Passer_By

    @iggles
    “Personally, I still don’t get what guys find “hot” about Giselle (her face is quite masculine and she doesn’t have much curves). ”

    She became a super model because of women and gay men. Some straight men are influenced, but she doesn’t walk around naked, and her more risque photos are probably photo shopped to appeal to men. On the other hand, it would probably be more fair to base these assessments on pictures from when she was younger.

    “But it’s incredible how much the “ideal women” has changed over the decades.”

    Well, wake me up when a woman with a figure like Gisele’s (in the picture Susan posted above) wins Playmate of the Year, or some such thing.

    I’m not sure the “ideal” has changed all that much for straight men, although the direction in which (and degree to which) they appreciate deviation from that ideal has probably changed.

  • OffTheCuff

    I don’t recall if you have a daughter, but I hope you’ll at least make an exception for her, especially if she succumbs to an all-too-common eating disorder or other mental illness.

    There’s so much self-esteem machinery already in place for girls, she’s honestly the last one I worry about. People actually get concerned and involved when girls have a hard time.

    I worry far more about my sons. They’re mostly quiet, follow the rules, and not into sports. They’re the ones who are going to be entirely ignored by the system, if they run into trouble, because they’re not the type to cause outwardly visible trouble. They’ll turn it inside on themselves, and nobody will care.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “Here’s what I’ve never understood about that – can a 13 year old boy last long enough to have his penis in half a dozen mouths? ”

    I dunno, but I’m pretty sure I would go to jail if I so much as pondered analogous questions about 13 year old girls!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I dunno, but I’m pretty sure I would go to jail if I so much as pondered analogous questions about 13 year old girls!

      Yikes, I should be more careful. That does sound rather prurient.

  • Ramble

    She planned to starve herself as much as possible to reach the goal in time so that she wouldn’t be passed over by the hot, thin sorority girls.

    This reminds me of something. I used to work with a woman who went on a low carb diet to lose weight (she needed to lose plenty). She lost a fair amount, but, at one point, she was only eating two small meals a day.

    We would talk about food and nutrition often enough and I soon mentioned to her that she would be more successful if she ate every 3 hours to moderate her blood sugar.

    She started doing this and said that it was working great and she did not feel hungry. Well, some time went by and she had gone off the low carbing and eating every 3 hours and had gained a fair amount of weight back. Well, she went back to a low carb diet a second time and went right back to starving herself.

    I have had nutrition conversations with many girls with each nodding there head to the idea, and success, of eating every 2-4 hours to control their insulin, and, once they decide that they NEED to lose weight, they go right back to starving themselves.

    I really think it has more to do with female martyrdom/self-sacrifice/victimhoom-obsessed nature than anything else.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Honestly, I think many women are just desperate to find what works. Insulin is the key, but controlling it can be done by eating more fiber and enough protein without having to eat frequently.

      I just read an article that talks about each individuals set point, and how difficult it is to stay below it. When one gets near it, or even if one severely restricts calories, the body’s metabolism slows way down. It’s been suggested that exercise is the only way to break through. There is a large database of people who have lost weight and kept it all off, just a small percentage of people who’ve tried, and the common thread is that they all exercise a lot, both cardio and strength training several days a week.

      People are quick to call people names and demonize them if they’re overweight, but the struggle is much harder for some than for others. Of course, that doesn’t mean you have to be attracted to them, but it seems more appropriate to just rule out those people rather than judge them very harshly.

  • Iggles

    OffTheCuff,

    In the paragraph preceeding it I wrote, “But it’s incredible how much the “ideal women” has changed over the decades.” So I assumed it was implied.

    I still think by today’s standards casting agents would tell her to lose weight and grow out her hair if she wanted to break into the industry. A lot of men might find her sexy but she wouldn’t be generic enough to make it to the top of the heap. (That sounds like an oxymoron, but in Hollywood most of the leading ladies share a common look).

    @ Ramble:

    Iggles, what guy has a poster of Giselle on their wall? Hell, I would bet good money that even Tom Brady did not have a poster of a girl on his wall that had a similar body type to Giselle…but, the pretty boy DID get to marry a “super model”.

    Haha! True.

    Still so many men agree that Giselle is “hot” it seems like universal consensus. But I think as plastic as she is, most guys would go for Megan Fox over Giselle because Megan appears to have some curves!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Marily Monroe’s weight must have fluctuated quite a bit. I know she was quite skinny by the time she died. This was her last photo session:
      mm

      I don’t know the year this pic was taken:

      mm

      By today’s standards, she’s fat here:

      mm3

      Also, check out these early photo of Marilyn without makeup. I would never have recognized her!

      mm

      mm2

  • Warm woman

    Susan, I lived In the south when I was in middle school during the 90′s. Most of the kids didn’t know what bj’s or masturbation was. The religious south just didn’t talk about that stuff. Any girl that was sexually active would be bullied mercilessly, even by the boys. I would still think something pathological is going on when a kid so young engages in oral sex, even if kids know more these days.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @WW

      Undoubtedly there are regional differences. I’m only familiar with the norms in Boston, which are probably representative of large, coastal cities.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com/2012/02/she-feels-so-damn-good.html Ted D

    OTC – “I worry far more about my sons. They’re mostly quiet, follow the rules, and not into sports. They’re the ones who are going to be entirely ignored by the system, if they run into trouble, because they’re not the type to cause outwardly visible trouble. They’ll turn it inside on themselves, and nobody will care.”

    Yep me too. I worry about my boys for exactly the reasons you stated, and because our society generally pushes boys and men to hide their emotional distress, while telling young girls and women to share their feelings with anyone that will listen. I have to make an effort to specifically ask my boys if/how things are going, repeatedly sometimes, before they will finally tell me what’s wrong. Between being called a “snitch” and being very afraid of being made to looks weak and foolish in front of their peers, they simply clam up.

  • Ramble

    Still so many men agree that Giselle is “hot” it seems like universal consensus.

    They say that Giselle is “hot” in the same way that college students tell you James Joyce is a great writer.

    They may “think” that Joyce is great, but they are not actually (voluntarily) reading Ulysses.

    =========================

    Something else that has not been brought up is that I have noticed that many times guys will refer to some girl as being hot when, basically, she is thin (not freaky skinny, but thin). I really think that this has got to do with how many fat girls (and guys, too) are out there and that affects how guys react to those girls that are actually thin.

    I don’t think that is what is happening in Giselle’s case…I think that is purely gay males, fashion designers and the resulting exposure that comes from those two.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I read Ulysses voluntarily, but I still wouldn’t date Gisele.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    I fundamentally disagree.
    People in my country get free healthcare, Regardless of how they got sick.

    Fat people take money that could be put to far better uses such as education. (Which also needs to be reworked come to think of it.)

    Anyway there was recetnly talk of giving tax breaks to the healthy. Not so much in those exact words but I fully support it. There was also the mention of subsidizing healthy food types while taxing the bad stuff. Also fully supported.

  • Ramble

    People are quick to call people names and demonize them if they’re overweight, but the struggle is much harder for some than for others.

    Susan, without any exaggeration, I have never known a single person fail to lose considerable weight on a low-carb/high-fat* diet. Especially, when coupled with eating 5-6 “meals” a day.

    Insulin is the key…

    Right. Blood Sugar, Insulin… for our purposes is basically the same thing.

    * I only use the qualifier “high” in relative terms to what is considered a “moderate” amount of fat today.

  • Lokland

    Same for smokers btw. And my grandmother died of lung-brain cancer. That doesn’t make it right that she cost the helath care system tons of money that could have gone elsewhere if she just hadn’t smoked. Doesn’t change my opinion.

    FYI, I used to be fat. Doesn’t change my opinion.

  • purplesneakers

    Emily- great comment. I also think it’s remiss to say it’s just because of women and gay men. I have the same proportions as when I was bigger but there’s no doubt more men like the way I look now better.

    Though I do think there is a big class/race divide too. I’m sure the guys from Susan’s anecdotes–the frat stars, varsity athletes, young, white, and upper class–would still find me repulsive. Men of other races (except probably East Asians) and other types of white guys actually like >17% body fat.

    Ramble- I eat low-carb-ish because, with a history of hormonal imbalances, it’s the best way for me to lose/maintain weight and have a good amount of energy. I never snack. Some days I skip lunch because I’m not that hungry. I find the “eat every 3-4 hours” plan to be ineffective. Insulin levels (in non-diabetics) will stabilize on their own when people eat enough protein/fat and don’t eat so much sugar and white flour at every meal (and you won’t get hungry either!). Actually I find that a lot of young women are ‘skinny fat,’ that is, they’re thin, but they probably have a surprisingly high body fat percentage for their weight, including some tummy flab (and not just apple-shaped women). I have a theory that if they weren’t all on some vegetarian/vegan kick (sample meal plan based on a friend: bagel for breakfast, grilled cheese sandwich for lunch, pasta for dinner) and actually ate enough protein, they wouldn’t have that flab, and would look a lot stronger.

  • Ramble

    For the record, I do not demonize fat people, but I do recognize the big effect (over) weight has had on our modern world.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Still so many men agree that Giselle is “hot” it seems like universal consensus.

    Seriously? Hm.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    People are quick to call people names and demonize them if they’re overweight, but the struggle is much harder for some than for others. Of course, that doesn’t mean you have to be attracted to them, but it seems more appropriate to just rule out those people rather than judge them very harshly.

    The same sort of argument could probably be made about so-called “sluts.” And actually, that’s sort of how I feel about them. No point shaming them. When I first came on the HUS scene, my worldview was so bleak that I thought every woman was a slut. But, you know, there are lots of options besides them. No need to shame, just avoid.

  • purplesneakers

    Also for me it’s not about feeling a need for control. It’s about health and keeping myself fertile, liking the way I look better now, and aging well. I enjoy food and even “working out,” once I realized it could be stuff I actually enjoy (like dancing) and not just endless hours on the treadmill and calorie counting.

  • Ramble

    By today’s standards, she’s fat here

    Oh, come on, no she is not.

    If you did an impromptu poll, on the street, right now of, say, at least 50 guys and ask them this simple question:
    “Is she fat?”

    The grand majority would say “no”.

    Now, gay men, fashion designer and some girls…they might say she is fat.

    I am guessing that the worst you would get, in that survey, is, “She could lose a few pounds”. Now, maybe that is what you were implying, but, she would definitely not be considered fat by the average guy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      I am guessing that the worst you would get, in that survey, is, “She could lose a few pounds”. Now, maybe that is what you were implying, but, she would definitely not be considered fat by the average guy.

      She would be shamed primarily by girls for being overweight, would feel overweight when watching TV, reading magazines, or seeing films. Her BMI would be higher than the ones people happily claim publicly. All of the above would land her outside the highest status social group, and therefore outside the notice of the highest status guys.

      The point is, Marilyn Monroe would not have the same response today from women or men. Perhaps it’s because women control the media more now. I don’t know which is cause and which is effect. But the end result is the same.

      Tom Brady could have married anyone, any super model in the world. But he chose Gisele. He obviously prefers her body over any other.

  • Ramble

    I would say that the worst picture of her, that you posted, was the one in the white bathing suit with her hand on her neck. She does look a little plump there.
    ========================
    Apparently, when she hit her 30′s she started taking diet pills, which was somewhat common amongst starlets of her day. There was a fair amount of pill popping in Hollywood in the early 60′s. Or course, from there, things would get worse.

  • Passer_By

    Am I the only one who thinks marilyn’s face is wildly overrated? I’m not saying she isn’t attractive, or that I wouldn’t hit it, but feel like I could drive over to Westwood and walk accross UCLA and see 20 young women with more attractive faces on my way across campus.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      I think her unadorned face is very ordinary. She’s a great example of someone with a manufactured look. It wasn’t just her appearance though – she had that breathy voice and pretended to be stupid, even though she was apparently very intelligent. Hmm, add one to the “guys like bimbos” column.

  • Ramble

    She would be shamed primarily by girls for being overweight

    OK, I will not argue with that. I believe you are right.

    All of the above would land her outside the highest status social group, and therefore outside the notice of the highest status guys.

    You know, that is an interesting insight, but, I don’t know if you are right.

    By High Status, you are mainly referring to, say, Johnny Depp and George Clooney, then, you are probably right. But, a girl like that would do just fine amongst pro Hockey players, Football players and Baseball players.

    ==============

    Tom Brady could have married anyone, any super model in the world. But he chose Gisele. He obviously prefers her body over any other.

    I don’t know if that is his preferred body type. How could I? But, I would still bet he did not have any posters on his wall with a girl that looked like her.

    And, for a pretty boy that does Uggs commercials and cries (literally cried) about being drafted in the 6th round, I can see someone like that loving the status of marrying the most famous super model in the world. Especially as he walks around Manhattan with her as he wears his Yankee hat (Yes, the Northern California boy that plays for Boston, was wearing a Yankee hat…what the fuck is he thinking?).

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    The female definition of fat: “she has fat on her that you can see.”

    The male definition of fat: “she’s got too much fat to give me a boner.”

    Women are too often preoccupied with the idea of perfect thinness. I don’t think most men think about it in quite the same way. Most men like anything within the healthy weight range, with key emphasis on healthy.

    Giselle falls into that range for her body type, since she looks like she’s naturally tall, thin and can still menstruate. Marilyn Monroe is within the healthy weight range in her photos as well, so men don’t understand why she’s held up as the poster girl for fat acceptance.

    Female definition of fat acceptance: accepting a small, healthy amount of visible fat on a famous female.

    Male definition of fat acceptance: accepting hugely obese women with rolls of fat into bed (to which they say no way!).

    Hope this female-male translation has helped. :P

  • purplesneakers

    Susan- I think those older photos are also from before she got a rhinoplasty.

    I agree with Ramble; I think 95% of men and maybe 92% of women would say ‘no way is she fat.’ She doesn’t have a completely flat stomach, she doesn’t have stick skinny arms, and she has some thigh fat, which we’re unused to seeing now thanks to photoshop (and probably breast implants making it possible for women to have very low levels of body fat and still have breasts), but she is slender and has a pleasing hourglass figure. Maybe the roissys and rooshes of the world would say she is fat and plan their next trip to the Ukraine.

    I really hope women who look like that don’t actually think they’re fat because of media influences! There are more important things in the world than having six-pack abs or zero arm flab.

  • http://www.nomadicneill.com NomadicNeill

    How do you explain Scarlett Johansson then?

    Tons of guys think she is incredibly hot and she is not much different from MM. See this comparison: http://www.flickr.com/photos/isaiasmalta/4416623791/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Nomadic Neill

      Good point! Actually, SJ is smaller in that comparison, but they look like they could be mother and daughter. And, of course, others have pointed out that lots of men find Kim Kardashian super sexy. I think guys prefer fit women, and the amount of curviness they prefer varies a lot by individual. I think that the ridiculous standards are primarily perpetrated by women themselves, which is why I was intrigued by the Giordano piece. A case in point is the example I gave earlier – a girl is petrified of not being selected to the best sorority by other women, she’s not fretting that guys don’t find her attractive.

  • OffTheCuff

    It’s not insulin levels, but blood glucose levels that matter. I cringe whenever I hear this, and I speak from the experience of being a human pancreas to my son – if I get his “insulin levels” wrong he dies.

    People just are lazy. My buddy lost 250 pounds. His secret? Portion control and working out.

    http://imagebin.org/203080
    http://articles.boston.com/2012-02-12/news/31052818_1_new-goal-keith-morning

    Now tell me portion control and exercise doesn’t work!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      I remember reading that story, that’s incredible! I know from experience exactly what is needed for me to be at my most fit: – I’ve shared it here before. 1561 calories of food per day plus burning 500 calories per day in exercise, for a net of 1061. I did that for years and it was what worked. People who can eat more than 1061 cals per day don’t believe me, but I know what I know. I let go of exercise in the last couple of years, and it’s been a disaster. I’m back at it again, and feeling much better about it.

  • OffTheCuff

    Hope at 213: Nailed it. You should win the Nobel Peace Prize.

  • http://www.nomadicneill.com NomadicNeill

    BTW, the obesity epidemic has pretty much been solved with paleo / primal / keto / low carb.

    Lay off wheat products, processed food and sugary drinks.

  • Ramble

    Scarlett Johansson, great example.

  • OffTheCuff

    (PS. There is a typo in that article – he went from 62″ to 38″, not 32″)

  • Wudang

    Susan, what kind of yoga do you do? Have you tried the five tibetans?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang

      I’m a beginner, I went with a group of women. I asked the teacher what form it was and she said it was her own personal blend (sounds like a tea). I look forward to learning more about it. What is the five tibetans?

  • Maggie

    “I worry far more about my sons. They’re mostly quiet, follow the rules, and not into sports. They’re the ones who are going to be entirely ignored by the system, if they run into trouble.”

    The quiet, good boys do fall through the cracks. I had this concern with my son and really had to be on top of this.

    I have different concerns with my daughter. It’s a hypercompetitive world for girls in HS and college. She’s going to have to have better grades than my son did to get into the same college. Girls today are held to a higher standard of beauty than ever in the competition for boys and jobs.

  • Passer_By

    @maggie

    “Girls today are held to a higher standard of beauty than ever in the competition for boys and jobs.”

    More accurately, in the competition for alpha males.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “1561 calories of food per day plus burning 500 calories per day in exercise, for a net of 1061. ”

    Wait – you’re sure it’s not 1560 or 1562? LOL How would you have ever calculated your caloric intact down to the last calorie?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      Can you tell I have a touch of OCD?

      I had my resting metabolic rate measured, then used that to calculate the number of calories needed to maintain ideal weight. That was the number the trainer gave me, so that’s what I’ve always used. I’m that compulsive about logging the calories too. Today I burned 537. :)

  • Ramble

    It wasn’t just her appearance though – she had that breathy voice and pretended to be stupid, even though she was apparently very intelligent. Hmm, add one to the “guys like bimbos” column.

    I dunno about “very intelligent”. According to the PBS documentary, she was “passed around” Hollywood. That was there words, “passed around”. I am not saying that “very intelligent” girls can’t be sluts, but it does not point to her being all that smart. (There are other examples…the kinds of decisions that she made with things like doing a naked photo shoot, marrying men she did not know all that well, popping diet pills [amongst other things], etc.)

    My guess is that she was not some idiot, but that she was not incredibly smart either.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Re Marilyn’s intelligence:

      Her personal library contained over 400 books on topics ranging from art to history, psychology, philosophy, literature, religion, poetry, and gardening. Many of the volumes, auctioned in 1999, bore her pencil notations in the margins.

      At 168, Marilyn’s IQ was significantly higher than John F. Kennedy’s 129.

      http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000054/bio

      She also reportedly had sex with Einstein, and of course married Arthur Miller. She said that she had a thing for smart men.

  • Dogsquat

    My Man Ted:

    “If I can see ribs, hip bones, leg and arm bones (other than joints like elbow and knee), or clearly see collar or shoulder blades through the skin, I’ll pass.”

    Mere anatomic obstacles to Sacred Procreation.

    If necessary, you can simply cover her body with the American flag. Bang her for Your Country. Close your eyes and think of Valley Forge, of Gettysburg and Bastogne and Tarawa. Pay any price, bear any burden. Your johnson is counting on you.

    If you find that nationalism isn’t an effective aphrodisiac, take a page out of my girlfriend’s book:

    For foreplay, she watches me pick up trash along the nearest highway for an hour. Then, during actual intercourse, she recites the Hippocratic Oath over and over. This has really cut down on her nausea during the act.

    I’ve got way too much time on my hands today, apparently.

  • Dogsquat

    Oh, man.

    Eating disorders…

    Until I began working in medicine, I had no idea how common disordered/restricted eating is. The archetype used to be WASPy teenage girls, but I’ve seen it in all kinds of people, even a few men. I bet one in thirty of the late teen/early 20′s female teenagers I deal with have it. Maybe half that number of older women are still dealing with it to some degree.

    Make no mistake – it is A Bad Thing. If you juke the stats a bit, you can say that one-in-five people afflicted with anorexia nervosa will die of complications related to that disease. Bulemia and anorexia nervosa are usually considered chronic conditions, because the relapse rate s/p treatment is similar to alcoholism. It’s sneaky, too…someone might overcome a decade of acute problems and be totally golden for years – and then they slip and fall.

    Normal folks might sport a dazzling buttock bruise after that. The former anorexic will shatter a hip thanks to super-lame bone density. They might lay there for hours before someone finds them/hears them calling for help. The outlook can be grim, especially if this happens on an icy winter night or wet, cold bathroom tiles.

    Even worse, sometimes their organ function sucks due to extended bouts of malnutrition. Fubared guts means half the really cool medical shit we save other patients with just kills them.

    Lots of young women are going to end up like this. I’m not really sentimental, but I hope my last five hours alive aren’t spent alone, desparate, freezing, in whitehotexcruciating pain, and staring up at the bottom of my mailbox. I have seen this very thing occur. Believe me when I say there are better ways to die.

    If you consider lettuce an adequate main course, or you think binge/purge/laxatives are a reasonable stopgap “just until I have more time for the gym” – get yourself some help.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat

      I know a young woman who often has lettuce tossed with mustard as a meal. Perhaps not surprisingly, she was the girl giving blowjobs in 7th grade. She’s very bright, but would duck out of Model UN conferences in high school to binge and puke. She should have graduated college last year, but her bulimia has interrupted her education several times as she has required hospitalization and rehab. She was a beautiful girl, and while she is still attractive, her teeth have been destroyed by the bile that comes up with each purged meal. It’s terrifying. I fear that she will die young, she’s the saddest young woman I know. I don’t understand what triggers this disease – she comes from a loving, intact family.

      For the record, the guy who told me he wants a size zero girl tried hard with her. That’s a lot of dysfunction right there.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Calories are not the whole story. A variety of different nutrients is essential to health. Take a person eating a diet of nothing but white bread for 1500 calories vs. a person eating a variety of meats, vegetables, fruits, nuts, and some carbs to add up to 1500 calories, and I will bet on the latter being much healthier.

    Quality matters. Cook your own food, use ingredients that are as fresh as possible, and don’t be afraid of natural fats. Avoid MSG, trans-fat, refined carbohydrates, hydrogenated oils, and high fructose corn syrup. In addition, take omega-3 supplements, folic acid (important for women), calcium, vitamin D and C.

    Different foods also interact with the body in different ways. See the following:

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232683.php

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Susan, what types of exercises did/do you do? Going on a treadmill burns calories but is not lasting or substantive. In my opinion it’s better to do strength training, core exercises and lift weights to build larger muscles, which will help resting metabolism and promote health.

    I used to be “skinny fat,” and I was lethargic all the time, had no energy, etc. I started out trying to run, but it just wasn’t doing much for me. I switched over to core strength, and I got to the point where I was doing 30 sit-ups and push-ups effortlessly. That was when I noticed a big difference in how healthy and energetic I felt. I’m also a lot stronger than I look because of weight training. Muscle mass is dense, builds shape and looks good under subcutaneous fat. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      Ah, you’ll be sorry you asked. Here’s my schedule:

      Monday: Rigorous strength training class – I usually burn around 500 cals.

      Tuesday: Spinning

      Wednesday: Pilates mat class, then elliptical to get to 500 cals for the day.

      Thursday: Spinning

      Friday: Strength Training class, followed by spinning (usually a 900 cals. day)

      Saturday and Sunday: Walks with Mr. HUS – usually burn around 400 cals.

      So…3 hours strength training per week, and around 5-6 hours cardio per week. It is certainly possible that this routine could be improved upon, but honestly, when I was in this groove for two years, I felt awesome. I’ve returned to it to lose my blogger’s ass.

  • Ramble

    Take a person eating a diet of nothing but white bread for 1500 calories vs. a person eating a variety of meats, vegetables, fruits, nuts, and some carbs to add up to 1500 calories, and I will bet on the latter being much healthier.

    Right On!

    Add to that things like Enzymes (it is now, almost impossible to buy Raw Almonds in America), Phyto-chemicals, Bacteria, Fermented Foods, proper balance of Fatty Acids (like Omega-3 to Omega-6), Vitamin D3, Vitamin K2, Sprouted Grains, etc.

    And, on the negative side: Phytic Acid, Phyto-Estrogen, Rancid Oils, etc.

    Plus, not to mention that many Vitamins and Nutrients work best in conjunction with others, like Vitamin C and Vitamin E apparently are more effective when consumed together. Hope, this is one of the reasons why I am not a big fan of supplements. Another is the recent research that shows that people who took vitamin supplements did significantly poorer than those that consumed the vitamins via food. Even when the 2nd group (which got it through food) consumed less of that nutrient than the supplement takers. I believe the nutrient in question was Calcium, though I don’t remember.

  • Iggles

    @ Ramble:

    I am guessing that the worst you would get, in that survey, is, “She could lose a few pounds”. Now, maybe that is what you were implying, but, she would definitely not be considered fat by the average guy.

    I feel like you’re equating fat with being obese. That’s not the same thing with the way the word is used today.

    Fat = You’re less physically attractive at your current weight than you would be at a lower weight

    Fat \= Obese

    Fat \= Overweight

    Fat = Chubby

    Fat = Plumb

    “Fat” is an insult because you’re essentially saying someone is unattractive (or less attractive) the way they presently are.

    That’s the same thing as “She could lose a few pounds”

    I second Susan’s assertion that by today’s standard she would be called fat, because I pretty sure someone would nitpick that if she lost some weight she’d be “hotter”.

    Also, keep in mind if she lost weight she would lose some of her curves. Since she had an hourglass figure, her hips and boobs would be affected. I think that compounds the fact that Marilyn wouldn’t be accepted a “hot” just the way she was today…

  • Ramble

    Same deal with Vitamin D.

    Most Vitamin D supplements provide you with Vitamin D2, which does not help the body provide Vitamin D3, which is important.

    Also, “Vitamin D3 is both a vitamin and a hormone. It acts as a vitamin when it binds with calcium for proper absorption. Humans cannot digest calcium without adequate amounts of Vitamin D3.”

    Most of us, at least in the winter, would likely get Vitamin D3 through things like Wild Salmon, Mackerel and Sardines.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ramble, I see supplements as just that, supplements to real food. I wouldn’t stop eating spinach just because the multivitamins have iron.

    They’ve also done clinical trials that showed folic acid supplements were helpful against spinal cord defects. I wouldn’t risk not having enough. I would take it long before I got pregnant.

  • Iggles

    Whoops, I’ll do a better job of catching up before posting.

    Susan, agree with everything you said @ 210

    Hope, you’re male/female translation @ 213 was spot on! Lol :D

  • Ramble

    I feel like you’re equating fat with being obese. That’s not the same thing with the way the word is used today.

    No, I wasn’t, and I stand by what I said. The majority of guys would not say she is fat (or obese).

    That’s the same thing as “She could lose a few pounds”

    I do think that a few more guys would say that in response to the other picture Susan posted, but not the one in question.

    I second Susan’s assertion that by today’s standard she would be called fat, because I pretty sure someone would nitpick that if she lost some weight she’d be “hotter”.

    Yeah, someone. A few people, and, I believe, mostly girls.

    In a large survey, a few guys would say that she is fat, but they would be in a tiny minority of men.

  • Lokland

    @ Hope

    They also had a study that showed excessive folic acid intake can lead to some kinds of cancers.

    It all comes down to what Paracelcus said (paraphrased) “Its not the compund itself that makes a poison but the dose.”

    As for supplements, complete waste of time. Eat a healthy balanced diet and you’ll be a million times healthier.

    Emphasis on balance since nobody realizes that doesn’t include McDonalds.

  • Miss Lurk

    Hiiii every’body.

    I’m a lurker who wants to leave some sort of comment before leaving HUS, just so (hopefully) I passed something forward in the same spirit other commentators have. I’m just absorbing personal comments and preferences here in an unproductive way now that it’s healthier to move on, but I’d like to contribute something, so hopefully the length is okay, since it’s a one-time thing.

    Here goes!

    On this particular post:
    As far as flappers go (props to Josephine Baker!), is it really that they were highly promiscuous and that’s why guys dated them, or that they were playful, open to new experiences and had a different sort of beauty? Not all flappers were thin either, but they had the same “irresistible” energy (from what I’ve seen from old videos and read of) that was advised in one of Susan’s articles uploaded recently (I thought it was the best one yet). I find flapper stuff fascinating and think they had more positives than negatives so I might be biased, but trying to be as objective as possible I just don’t see how looks were all that mattered to the guys they dated and who liked them, and I don’t see how they were boyish; they seemed so feminine, unless bigger breasts and curves are the defining traits to men of femininity, although that goes against the idea of feminine behavior/energy in previous articles. It seems more to me that flappers were like Natasha’s running all over the place, not that those who dated them were secretly gay or like kids (!).

    My two cents is that changing original classical paintings guarantees the altered painting will most likely never look as awesome side-by-side to the original. I think the project where one celebrity was outlined with a Barbie figure relates more to the current concerns of body trends than this, but it certainly is interesting to see the alterations here nonetheless. Both appear feminine and pretty to me with neither looking like a 10 year old boy (what a degrading and repulsive thing to say!) for it, but as Hope mentioned, you know something is “off” with the latter in this case when you place it beside the original. I think the beauty, though, of both, is a woman on a giant pearly seashell, the mix of colors, and understanding the history of the goddess Venus. (Although realizing the seashell represents more than a “seashell” is alllllways awkward.)

    [Art geek tangent: I love this interpretation of the scene, altered or not, of Venus being born, but find Cabanel's Birth of Venus slightly more interesting and softer to the eye. (Bouguereau's interpretation makes me think of that "I pity the fool who don't got my milkshake" modern diva-like superiority complex I don't associate with Venus, although she certainly was a spotlight hog, but between the other interpretations it's the more well-trained to me.)]

    For lurkers in particular, I think the advice to be healthy and work with what you have is still very sound, coupled with the advice to focus on a “dating niche”. Comments that someone is too thin or doesn’t have enough curves or is too fat and has too many curves shouldn’t overshadow the fact that you should focus primarily on being attractive to two people: yourself and your partner/current interest. Body comparisons are brutal, and when sexual preferences tumble in it can become chaos. The consensus on what is “fit” varies (ex.: big=can afford food=*arguably* more curves=hot or small=exercise=*arguably* more healthy=sexy) on arbitrary preferences (curves=hot or waif=hot or curve-waif=hot or long flowing blond hair that covers girly bits=hot).

    If you personalize this too much like myself, whether you’re a guy or girl, remember that there is a difference between “I prefer this-and-that” and “I prefer this-and-that and the alternative sucks and is only liked by people in the closet/are chubby chasers/ride brooms/want to break bodies.” That’s what unproductive shaming does, and it’s happening in this thread as it does in the previous ones more recently. Please don’t take it to heart. I kindly say that you lose control of your health the minute you try to emulate what isn’t fit or healthy for you, and that’s always when you try to look like someone else. It’s the difference between looking at your health the alpha way (i.e. “I know what’s attractive is for my look and health and how to work it”) vs. the beta way (i.e. “I’ll let someone else decide what is attractive and just work to follow that”). Personally, I will not ever have super curves and am the black university geek version of the second photo Jesus Mahoney recently uploaded (but not nearly as, in my opinion, playfully pretty). Some people will feel like him: that I’m too childish and boyish looking, but I just keep in mind that the person I love will love my look and find it sexy and feminine the way it is in addition to my personality. You have to focus on what personally pertains to your unique situation and disregard what doesn’t. It’s the same for those on the opposite end: some guys might say you are too fat or whatever, but the guys you want aren’t the guys who say that; they’re the guys who look at you and go “yum!”. The same is true for guys: you want a girl who is attracted to you as you are, and can hopefully do this without playing you against others (i.e. You are better than THAT thing! or Whhhy can’t you be like THAT! spiel) . I think you can adapt this acceptance for your sexual history too, whether there is none, very little, or a lot; you always want someone who, in the end, can make peace with your past and who you used to be.

    I don’t mean to imply that if you are too far on either end (anorexic or obese) you can expect the same level of attraction you would get if you are healthy for your frame, which is why I emphasize being fit for yourself. Exercise is helpful in my experience altogether, b/c when I started weight resistance training (to build more muscle, not for a guy [I think it's destructive, not to mention unattractive and uncalled for, if a guy or girl tells you to gain weight or lose it to keep their interest and not for your own health]) and jogging for the fresh air my geeky, shy self had the courage to finally approach a guy who I wound up sitting with for the duration of a semester. It didn’t work out, but it’s important I got the courage enough to get that far. I have no doubt that the confidence boosts exercise gives could help any guy or girl alike, fit all ready or not.

    On another note, that is crazy how much more likely a women will divorce based on that specific raise in income over her partner (!). I guess there’s hope if you make $4,999. Just never round up. And the make up study really floors me. The mixed messages in the dating realm are like a fortress to a club called Mordor! One cannot simply walk into it. I have heard before a natural look is better, but here make up is a sign of a more trustworthy person?! I am curious as to what make up colors really grab trust. Maybe the sensual reds and feminine pinks, or peacock blues and earthy browns?

    Comments not on this particular post:
    Thank you so much for this site Susan! I wish I could beat my compulsion to read the comments because your articles themselves are quite informative, although the tone has changed. I’ve been a lurker about two months now and read most of the back-log (I feel so obsessive admitting it, but so much was good stuff!), and actually stumbled here after googling virgin-shaming when an old friend put me down for my lack of experience. (How is it a conversation about not getting enough Cheetos in a Cheetos bag can turn into one about virginity I ask you?!).

    I have two articles you wrote I just want to gush over. For me personally, I believe “like” attracts “like”, and although I’m 21 now, I still don’t feel ready for a relationship because I want to get closer to the “like” I want to attract, and be more confident so I don’t ruin it with insecurities. I want someone who, among other things, is playful and bubbly confident, sociable and has this zeal for life. I am learning to be that person every day. Your article on having that irresistible quality of having fun was exactly what I needed, and so positive and warmly-written. I have saved it for future use because I think it really hits the nail on the head about approaching, not just dating, but life. To understand that taking a genuine curiosity in others and trying to share a good time seems so obvious, but was written in a way I hadn’t “gotten” before. Your articles altogether come from the perspective of “you can control this, don’t feel helpless” that the comments often hit-and-miss. I really appreciate your particular angle. That article was also great because the comments overall had less quick-on-the-trigger anger, generalizations and unproductive shaming, and more positive “this is what you can do” advice, with the affectionate cracks you guys sometimes make at each other. It’s the difference between Superman’s optimism and positivity and Batman’s cautious but hopeful cynicism (I prefer the former in these geeky old days of mine, I must admit!). There is so often this competitive “I’m not like them and anyone who is like them has issues” that goes on in the comments too, and I found that article didn’t have that, which aided in that positive productive feel.

    I also super loved your Austen article! It should be so much more popular than it is and has such stellar advice! I wish it were more popular, because a North & South article would be an amazing complement. *Not just because Richard Armitage/ Mr. Thorton is a real life dream, ha ha!*. It simply has an interesting and accurate male-female dynamic and a dress style that exemplifies the adage of more with less, coupled with the importance of balancing independence while expressing mutual attraction.

    My two cents from having been here, if I were to advise others, is the following run-on: do what you can, compromise if it meets your goals and doesn’t fundamentally change who you are (ideally good game exemplifies your charm, not masks it), make sure you are healthy and have some physical activity since it boosts confidence, have a social circle (if you don’t have a big one, no worries, I’m working on that too along with you) or switch up your social circle if the people in it are holding you back or encouraging sexual choices you’ve made you now want to back away from or have not made and don’t wish to, always believe you are in charge of working your dating market and that remembering working it to YOUR advantage and unique goals makes a difference than blindly following it or grumbling that it sucks without moving a limb, give yourself time to be mad when it hurts and then move on, make sure that if you are hooking up it is because hook up culture has the experiences and guys/girls you like and want and not because you think you have to or that hook up people are the only prospects in the sexual marketplace, know you can change your behavior and when you do there will be people who appreciate that self-awareness you gained in making a genuine change, learn to feel good about yourself without unproductively shaming others because how good do you really feel if you have to slam someone else to feel comfortable?, feminism isn’t the only path to gender equality, be mindful and honest about whether someone you like is reciprocating your attraction and if they aren’t feel comfortable in moving on if attraction cannot be regained or maintained, communicate interest in easy-to-understand ways that the opposite gender commonly looks for and, finally, have interests that connect you to the guys/girls you want. If you want a boyfriend who loves jazz or a girlfriend who knows her way around wine and fashion you have to go to where they are, and that might be out the hookup culture spots (especially since hookup peeps are a minority I’ve learned after being here; 80/20 rule is super accurate across the board, the potent thing!).

    It takes a lot of patience and hard work to get to where you want to be. Reading about people with great relationships, in their dream life, can make me feel jealous. Why can’t I have my dream love, I think, and why can’t I have my dream job as a sign language interpreter now? I feel like everyone has gotten their life goods and I’m watching on the wayside. But for those who have thought like this, please know happiness isn’t zero-sum. It’s important to remember the hard work and patience part. Everyone had to wait and put in the effort in to get what they want, in love and in life, and I have more faith after being at HUS I can enjoy the same, with no doubt others who continuously learn about themselves and what works for them and what they need while putting forth effort can enjoy the same too. Good vibes y’all, good vibes, ha ha!

    I feel like I am giving a graduation speech, and wish I was at a point where I could engage without internalizing so deeply so I could keep coming back, but I am really grateful I came here. I’d especially like to thank Hope for her comments because I am introverted too and often dating advice comes from an extroverted place. I appreciated your perspective which took in introversion and was generally very positive and gracious. I also appreciated your perspective Anacaona (you have SUCH a good sense of humor and much love to fellow Trekkies and Twilighters!). I wish I could remember past commentators too, many who posted once and disappeared! Whether or not I agreed with all comments, the diversity was really important and I appreciated that as well. And of course, thank you Susan for this site and putting yourself out there. You get so many attacks but handle it with such grace. It’s amazing.

    Well, that’s it for this lurker. I will be out there in the world trying to get as close as I can to my positive ideal, so I can go into the dating world eventually/soon eyes open and prepared for a good experience that hopefully leads to an amazing union with a great guy. Fist-bumps to you guys and I’m sorry for the rambling and blog post-like length, ha ha! But if this is a graduation speech the diploma is the HUS knowledge in my brain that I’m happy and lucky to have. :)

    Best to you guys, and I hope everyone, lurker and non-lurker, get the relationship they want and/or continue to maintain the wonderful relationship they have. Love and positivity isn’t a bad thing in my book, and I’m definitely passing forward this site if one of my friends wants a new perspective on dating or handling hookup culture.

    May the force be with you! <—couldn't resist, forgive me!

    Best wishes,
    Miss Lurk.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Miss Lurk

      I have such mixed feelings as I write this. It’s a pleasure to “meet” you. I thank you so much for your insightful and thoughtful comment. I’m sorry you’re already going!

      I am truly gratified that HUS helped you to figure out some stuff – it’s feedback like yours that keeps me writing.

      If you are willing to share more of your impressions, I would be very grateful for your thoughts on the issue of the tone of the blog, both in the posts and comments. It’s an issue I’ve been struggling with for the past few months, and I could use an outsider’s, i.e. lurker’s, perspective. You can email me at walsh.susan1@gmail.com with any feedback. Thanks so much.

  • Lokland

    @ Ramble, Hope

    On Supplements

    Meta Analysis shows that pretty much all supplements are utterly fucking worthless if not outright bad.

    The ONLY exception is vitamin D which shows a decrease in mortality for people who take it daily. No one knows why, it could be a complete coinky dink. However it is not bad, that much is fairly certain.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Lokland, all things in moderation, of course. One can die drinking too much water, so should I avoid drinking more water than when I was a silly teenager drinking tons of diet coke? I don’t go overboard on supplements, but it’s certainly better to take fish oil than to not get enough omega-3 fatty acids (purified so mercury is not a concern during pregnancy).

    The average American doesn’t really get enough nutrients from diet alone due to a variety of factors, including genetically-modified foods and soil depletion from modern farming methods.

  • Iggles

    @ Ramble

    I feel like you’re equating fat with being obese. That’s not the same thing with the way the word is used today.

    No, I wasn’t, and I stand by what I said. The majority of guys would not say she is fat (or obese).

    As I said in my previous comment, when most people say “fat” they’re necessarily calling someone obese (i.e, “fat /= obese”). No one in their right mind would thing Marilyn is obese. The question was would she be consider fat by today’s standards.

    That’s the same thing as “She could lose a few pounds”

    I do think that a few more guys would say that in response to the other picture Susan posted, but not the one in question.

    And in saying this, they’re making the same argument as calling someone “fat” (with the way the word is generally used today):

    “Fat” is an insult because you’re essentially saying someone is unattractive (or less attractive) the way they presently are.

  • Iggles

    Ugh, typos!
    Meant to say, “they’re NOT necessarily calling someone obese”

  • purplesneakers

    Hope, re: the sit-ups and push-ups – that’s awesome! It’s my goal to build enough upper body strength so that I can actually do a real push-up (and pull-up). I tried jogging/running at first but it killed my feet.

    Iggles- I’ve actually never ever heard “fat” used to mean “not as thin as possible.” Maybe middle school girls use that to tear down other girls. It sounds like what the people at ONTD (ohnotheydidnt livejournal community about celeb gossip) might say. Or teenage boys on the internet nitpicking about things like adriana lima’s “pointy elbows” or something. As someone who has actually been fat, I’m offended by this “reclaiming” of the word! :P But in seriousness, it actually is kind of alarming given the rate of eating disorders (but I still think that’s overblown compared to obesity). I think most of the time when girls say “I’m so fat” or “I need to lose 5 pounds,” they’re just fishing for compliments. When they say some other girl is fat, they’re being bitches and trying to tear the other girl down. I have a hard time believing so many people are so affected by media images that they have such a warped view of body image.

  • Lokland

    @ Hope

    “One can die drinking too much water”

    I remember doing a case study on that broad in undergrad. God that was sad.

    As for your avg American diet, no shit they eat McDonalds which is like poison with bacon bits on top.

    As for GMOs, face palm.

    As for supplements being useful, yes I agree somewhat. Paracelcus.
    However since most people have no clue what the proper dose is and have health-food stores pushing it like crack dealers on street corners, OD’ing on vitamins is a real possibility. (Note: OD =/= death.)

    As for mercury in fish, where do you live Japan circa 1960?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Mercury in fish:

    http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyhealth/fishmercury.htm

    Unless you specialize in perinatal medicine, I think I’d rather listen to these people. :P

  • SayWhaat

    *SQUEEEEEEAAAAALLLLLL* DOGSQUAT YOU’RE BACK!

    *bear hug*

    Please don’t ever leave us again. ;__;

  • Lokland

    @ Hope

    “Unless you specialize in perinatal medicine, I think I’d rather listen to these people. ”

    You win :P

  • SayWhaat

    Actually, Dogsquat’s timing couldn’t have been more perfect.

    Guess what, guys?

    I have a boyfriend!!

    :)

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    SayWhaat, that’s awesome! Is it the same guy you’ve been dropping hints about lately? :]

  • purplesneakers

    omg, SayWhaaaat! Yaaaaaaaaay!

  • Lokland

    Congrats

  • J

    Marilyn Monroe had a 21 inch waist?

    According to the standard size charts developed in the 1940s and 50s, a girls’ size 6 (generally worn by girls between the ages of 5-7) has a 21 inch waist. She must have been corsetted within a inch of her life.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_standard_clothing_size

  • SayWhaat

    @ Hope, yes, it’s the same guy. He’s the sweetest guy I’ve ever met. :)

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Hi Miss Lurk, thank you for unlurking temporarily to leave a comment. Now I know at least I reached one other person! It sounds like you’re on the right track, especially in regards to positivity and becoming the best you can be. :) You are still quite young, and your time will come.

    I was quite miserable, alternating between depressed, suicidal, half-crazy and feeling self-pity from 10 until my early 20s. Then I started taking control of my health, eating and exercise habits, as well as my own emotions and psychological states, and only then did I become a more worthy partner. I think we are all capable of making great strides in personal growth, and our 20s is a great time to do it. You’re further ahead of schedule than I was, so that’s a point in your favor!

  • WarmWoman

    SayWhaat-Congrats!

    @hope

    My friend from Vietnam revealed her secret as to how she managed to stay thin well into her mid 30′s. She said “I just don’t eat American food, like milk, eggs, pancakes, burgers, and cheese. All I eat is meat, fruits and veggies.” She then explained that’s why so many people have a hard time losing weight when they work their asses off at the gym. Part of is that they’re eating dairy, chips, fries and sweets.

  • Passer_By

    @saywhaat

    “Guess what, guys? I have a boyfriend!!”

    So, does that mean, ummmm, well, you know?

  • SayWhaat

    @ Passer_By:

    Yep.

  • SayWhaat

    (After we became exclusive, of course.) :P

  • Passer_By

    Woooooooooooooooooo Hooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

    HUS, getting everybody fornicatin’ smartly one V at a time, baby!

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    SayWhaat, well that is really awesome. I’m happy for you; you seemed super frustrated just a few months ago!

    WarmWoman, I don’t know about that. American women used to eat those things 60 years ago, plenty of dairy, milk, butter, etc. There wasn’t an obesity epidemic back then. I also grew up eating eggs stirfried into meals in Chinese homemade cooking. So I think it’s more about bigger portions and less exercise, as well as hfcs/trans-fats.

  • J

    I think Rainbow Parties, especially at Bar Mitzvahs were parents and relatives are in attendance, are by and large apochryphal. I’m sure there are sexual shenigans at older teen parties where parents are gone, but the whole lipstick thing sounds contrived to me even among older kids.

  • SayWhaat

    Thanks guys!

    @Hope, yeah, I was in a pretty negative place a few months ago. Thank goodness I snapped out of it — I might have missed a really good guy. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      The thing I’m looking forward to most is reports from SayWhaat the girlfriend. And also, I hope you know that it’s your moral duty to share when the resident HUS virgin swipes her vcard….

  • J

    I read Ulysses voluntarily, but I still wouldn’t date Gisele.

    Cosigned.

  • Dogsquat

    Hi there, SayWhaat! Being in a good relationship is one of life’s joys, isn’t it?

    Nice work, my dear.

  • Passer_By

    I would date AND marry Gisele just for the money. I could retire and service her when she was in town. I mean, it’s not like she isn’t attractive, just not my ideal body type. I would just undermine her diet routine to slowly fatten her up a bit and get her doing squats to add some junk in the trunk. She’d never get down to .7, but life’s all about compromises.

  • OffTheCuff

    Fat = You’re less physically attractive at your current weight than you would be at a lower weight

    No. Fat = overweight, obese, or moridbly obese by medical standards. Maybe this is the way women use it to wound other women, but it’s not how men use it.

    I think that compounds the fact that Marilyn wouldn’t be accepted a “hot” just the way she was today…

    Total bull. She’s hot enough to have sex with anyone she wants to.

  • OffTheCuff

    Congrats, SayWhaat – I’m really happy for you.

    Now go get busy!

  • J

    Congrats, Say Whaat!

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “At 168, Marilyn’s IQ . . .”

    C’mon. I know it was in IMBD, but that’s hardly an authority. Assuming this was the Wechsler test, this would have the rarity of her intelligence about 1/350,000. Does that seem reasonably plausible to you? Even if it was the other test (Stanford-Binet), I think it would make her about 1 out of 100,000.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      I confess I have my doubts about 168. But IMBD is a reputable database, it’s hard to imagine that would go unchallenged if it was ridiculous. She never even completed high school, so odds are her IQ was never tested. Hard to know the facts – I confess I didn’t spend much time researching it. I grabbed onto the first interesting factoid that turned up :)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    but I wonder sometimes if I’m gaining weight too quickly (I gained 10lbs in the last 3 months).

    I’m worried the opposite I had only gained 3 pounds during the whole pregnancy. I always had issues with being underweight and I used to be a picky eater when growing up it seems like the pregnancy has triggered the “everything taste bitter or smell funny” I had on those years,hopefully I will get over once I past the first trimester. So far the doctor is not worried so I might just be exaggerating.

    I would date AND marry Gisele just for the money. I could retire and service her when she was in town. I mean, it’s not like she isn’t attractive, just not my ideal body type. I would just undermine her diet routine to slowly fatten her up a bit and get her doing squats to add some junk in the trunk. She’d never get down to .7, but life’s all about compromises.

    I once had a guy sort of dating me that used to always buy me lots of food and ice cream after a few months he confessed he wanted me to fat me up. I just laughed and told him that I was a big eater and I didn’t gained weight he was wasting his money. If Gisselle is naturally thin you wouldn’t succeed unless you manage to find a way to keep her in bed for the most part of the day so she couldn’t burn the calories no to mention that if you succeed she will start losing modeling contracts and money so not a smart move anyway pal.

    Congrats SayWhaat! Welcome to the club! :)

  • Sassy6519

    @ SayWhaat

    Congrats girl!! That’s awesome. I hope you two are very happy together.

    @ Dogsquat

    It’s good to see you around here again. I hope you stay and comment here often.

    Though I do think there is a big class/race divide too. I’m sure the guys from Susan’s anecdotes–the frat stars, varsity athletes, young, white, and upper class–would still find me repulsive. Men of other races (except probably East Asians) and other types of white guys actually like >17% body fat.

    Perhaps. For the most part, I’ve exclusively dated white men of various backgrounds and statuses. They have never had a problem with my body and I am not a size 2. It’s been said multiple times already on this thread, but I will say it again. Men don’t like fat women. Men like curvy women. If you think those two things are the same thing, you have never met a legitimately curvy woman before. The midriff is trim, but the breasts and hips are full. I guess my body shape is less common than I originally assumed.

  • Dogsquat

    None of what follows is medical advice. I copied it off a cereal box. I’m just a dumbass ambulance driver anyway.

    I’ve heard from many sources that anorexia and bulimia stem from control issues. That makes a lot of sense based on what I’ve seen.

    There’s a religious community in my area that is pretty strict about a bunch of stuff, including dress, speech, and associating with all of us hellbound types. They’re nice folks, don’t get me wrong – just pretty intense.

    Every. Single. Woman. in that group is on an antidepressant, hormonal birth control (tubal ligation and breast augmentation/tummy tuck after 3-5 kids), a benzodiazepine for anxiety, and phentermine or adderall. You know the religion just by looking at the chart.

    The other thing I’ve noticed about these ladies is that about half of them pop for ketosis when a urinalysis is done. Ketosis (mostly) happens when you haven’t eaten enough for awhile (or on Atkins type diets), and your body is scrounging around for stuff to burn.

    Nothing in the chart and nothing the patient says ever accounts for this except for restricted food intake.

    This population of women are raised/expected/pressured to conform to very strict standards and present a certain image to the world. What they eat is probably the only thing they get to pick for themselves. It makes sense that some sort of pathology could develop there.

    That’s pretty extreme, but it supports the hypothesis. You can see less severe examples in many kids’ lives. Give a smart, perceptive kid some crappy parent(s) that don’t pay attention. Now tell the kid where to go all day (school), what to eat (clean your plate, there are starving babies in Africa), and what to wear (I don’t care what kind of jeans Jamie has!). Add a dash of bullying or sexual assault (poor kid doesn’t even have control of their own body).

    The only meaningful thing a kid like that has control of is actually swallowing dinner.

    It’s amazing any of us survive to reproduce.

    ***none of that was meant to diagnose or treat anything. I just do stabbings, heart attacks, and car crashes and you’re dumb if you believe me over a doc***

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Susan, I think you might be doing too much. I find that it is a lot easier to maintain smaller doses of exercise over the long term and makes me less burned out from exercising. I can’t fault you for not keeping up that level of exercise all the time. I wouldn’t be able to either! I stick to short bursts of intense cardio intervals plus strength maintenance.

    But I’m sure that it does work for dropping weight relatively quickly. I just don’t think I could maintain it for more than a week. :P

  • Emily

    >> “1561 calories of food per day plus burning 500 calories per day in exercise, for a net of 1061″

    Wow, I guess that just shows how different these things are from person to person. Even on days when I don’t exercise, I turn into a moody bitch if I have much less than 2000 calories a day.

  • Dogsquat

    Pip pip, Old Girl!

    How’s the search for Mr. Sassy going?

    Extreme discipline and innate, bone-deep courtesy is why I’m not suggesting you support your point about body types via self-shot nude photos. A guy who’d ask that is an asshole.

    Not me. I’m nice, and kind to children and animals.

  • purplesneakers

    Perhaps. For the most part, I’ve exclusively dated white men of various backgrounds and statuses. They have never had a problem with my body and I am not a size 2. It’s been said multiple times already on this thread, but I will say it again. Men don’t like fat women. Men like curvy women. If you think those two things are the same thing, you have never met a legitimately curvy woman before. The midriff is trim, but the breasts and hips are full. I guess my body shape is less common than I originally assumed.

    There’s no need to repeat that. I know that fact better than most women. I was referring to the ‘frat stars’ that Susan references.. like the guy who says that he wouldn’t date a girl above a size zero, and actually went after an anorexic girl. Those are the ones who would find average body types “repulsive.” Here in NYC there is no shortage of beautiful women of various races, many of them very thin models. They can have their pick of those women.

    I know plenty of ‘curvy’ women. My mother is one of them. You don’t have to worry that fat ol’ me (btw, not fat anymore. used to be fat) might be trying to claim the “curvy” label and making you look bad in comparison.

  • Rum

    Upping the exercise/calorie burn/ muscle toning is a win-win, always. For one thing, it is much easier to get all the nutrients one needs from 2,000 calories of food than 1,000. Low cal diet plus empty calories = bad news.
    Our ancestors most likely had appetite systems that were designed for optimal sensitivity at a 3,500 – 5,000 cal/day fuel burn.
    There are several problems with the notion of people having “set points”. For a starter, there does not seem to be anything “set” about it when it drifts ever upward for so many these days from young adulthood.

  • Dogsquat

    Emily whispered softly in your ear:

    “Wow, I guess that just shows how different these things are from person to person. Even on days when I don’t exercise, I turn into a moody bitch if I have much less than 2000 calories a day.”
    _________

    For awhile at the beginning of the Iraq War, we had a lot of trouble managing supply lines. Ammo and batteries were top priority, then gas to run the vehicles, then water, and then…if there was room in the trucks, food.

    I’m a pretty big guy, but I don’t have much padding on me, and I lost about 35 lbs in 3 weeks eating “only” 2,000-4,000 calories a day.

    It is an effective weight loss technique.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Dogsquat

    Pip pip, Old Girl!

    How’s the search for Mr. Sassy going?

    It’s tiresome and frustrating, per the usual. Thanks for asking though.

    @ purplesneakers

    I think my post came off much harsher than it sounded in my head. Sorry about that. My post was directed more towards everyone instead of any one particular person.

  • Dogsquat

    @Rum said:

    “Our ancestors most likely had appetite systems that were designed for optimal sensitivity at a 3,500 – 5,000 cal/day fuel burn.”
    __________________

    It’s crazy to think how sedentary we are compared to Joe Hunter-Gatherer circa 10,000BC.

    You don’t have to climb anything at all if I don’t want to. Just push a button on a wall and a machine will carry you up. And screw walking further than the fridge. I’ve got a car to take care of that.

    When the fridge is empty, I can take that car to a drive through. I will be warm, dry, and fed without ever getting out of the seat.

  • Passer_By

    With respect to fitness, my mouse clicking finger has the strength and endurance of 10 or 15 ordinary mortal fingers. Plus, I often cross train by moving the mouse to my other hand and switching the keys.

  • Dogsquat

    @Sassy
    “It’s tiresome and frustrating, per the usual.”
    ________________

    It’s like commercial diamond mining, except with more booze and text messaging.

  • Dogsquat

    Passer By, please be careful.

    All it takes is one slip-up, one tiny lapse in concentration, and your health and dreams will be shattered. You’ll have to wear one of those goofy neoprene wrist splints….for days….

  • WarmWoman

    @Sassy

    If you don’t mind me asking, do you prefer white men or are you overall more attracted to them?

  • Ramble

    Iggles,
    The question was would she be consider fat by today’s standards.

    And, she wouldn’t. I am not sure if I could prove that, but I am confident that the average guy would not call her fat.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “And also, I hope you know that it’s your moral duty to share when the resident HUS virgin swipes her vcard….”

    Umm, I think you need to read my exchange with her up above just a LIIIITTLE bit more closely.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Umm, I think you need to read my exchange with her up above just a LIIIITTLE bit more closely.

      I’m always late to the party these days. I’m whoo-hooing and everyone’s putting on their coats to leave.

      This feels like a milestone for the blog! And I must confess I’m relieved SayWhaat didn’t go the route of having a guy friend help to just “get it over with.”

  • Sassy6519

    @ WarmWoman

    If you don’t mind me asking, do you prefer white men or are you overall more attracted to them?

    I’m more attracted to them overall. It’s been that way for as far back as I can remember. White men also approach me the most, so it works in my favor.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    SayWhaat,

    That’s awesome. I hope it works out and that you get laid soon. :P

  • WarmWoman

    @Sassy
    “I’m more attracted to them overall.”

    I feel the same way, except I only realized this recently. ;) It’s something I can’t apologize for anymore.

    “White men also approach me the most, so it works in my favor”"

    Same with me. I also find that they’re more consistent when dating and want LTR’s.

    My white friend is the opposite where she detests white-american men and prefers Indian/Arabic men.

  • Ramble

    re: Marilyn’s IQ

    Susan, her IQ* would mean little to me. Living in a college town, I am sure you have met your share of high IQ idiots. I knew one girl who had a 4.0 and was a complete idiot.

    However, I am not saying that she was stupid. And, you may be completely right, and she was quite smart…but, I am simply looking at her decisions and accomplishments. And, I would bet that her “smarts” were about average.

    * I doubt that she got a 168 mainly because I doubt she even took the test. But, that is a story for another day.

  • Ramble

    Jayne Mansfield once claimed that she had an IQ of 163. Later, some guy (Mickey Spillane?) claimed he had an IQ of 165, upon hearing that Mansfield needed someone at least as smart as she was.

    Marilyns IQ (168, raising the bar again) was probably announced not long after Mansfield had said hers was 163.

  • WarmWoman

    @OTC

    “Total bull. She’s hot enough to have sex with anyone she wants to.

    I think she looks awesome, but I had a male acquaintance back in college that just looked at her and said “Extremely unathletic physique. Not impressive.”

    He claims to be straight. ;)

  • purplesneakers

    Sassy- no worries. It’s a sensitive topic for me.

    but re: cultural differences. indian culture places a lot more emphasis on the hips. this woman is considered one of the hottest actresses in the south indian film industries- http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-abzmCOw9UnM/TgFY8Dc6B0I/AAAAAAAAAFw/iBch3zddkOU/s1600/Ileana+D+Cruz.jpg
    She is thin but I think there’s no way she would make it in American acting or modeling. I feel like there’s something to be said for lack of emphasis on fertility/childbearing in the U.S. vs. India.

  • WarmWoman

    Really, purplesneakers? I’ve heard Indian guys say that they don’t like wide hips (which mine are ;) ).

    I heard the South Indian film industry likes more voluptuous women, while Bollywood prefers the slimmer ones.

    In my experience, many American men like curvy hips/ample butt.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    No comment on these rainbow parties. They do sound a bit overblown (pun intended) and probably more urban legend than anything, à la “Satantic Sex Parties” of the 1970s : )

    I just dropped you an email with the Gibson Girl vs. Flapper look. They both have merit as different types of classic beauty IMO. Also, I read an interesting Bookshelf article in the WSJ this morning. “Modern Love” by Kenneth Minogue, discussing the current SMP and framing it as fidelity vs. freedom. It also talked about feminism’s effect and the the danger of treating one’s love life like the free market. Pretty good stuff (link available).

  • purplesneakers

    I have wide hips (and a big healthy butt) and anecdotally, non-American Indian guys like that more. I think traditional Indian clothing (as opposed to say, a form-fitting cocktail dress) is also more gentle in how it drapes across the figure, so wider hips don’t stand out as much. Bollywood definitely likes ‘em slimmer. It seems like the average American man likes something different than from what the media propagates as the ideal. I guess the boner really doesn’t lie? haha.

    19th century exotic dancers – http://www.retronaut.co/2012/01/exotic-dancers-1890s/

  • Rum

    M.M. was not classically beautiful like so many fashion models.. From some angles and without make-up her face could seem much less than glamorous. But for guys of her era – and any other era – classical beauty and/or glamorousness are way in second place to what Marilyn had so much of – which is actually hard to define without crude referrences to penile tumesence. That is the quality that “beauty” is hoping to achieve but often gets wrong.

  • WarmWoman

    “It seems like the average American man likes something different than from what the media propagates as the ideal. I guess the boner really doesn’t lie? haha.”

    We obviously can’t assume every man’s taste, but my ex was a tall and thin man that didn’t like thin woman. Like Ted says, his words were “If I wanted my girlfriend to look like me, I would date a dude.” He liked Monica Bellucci’s body a lot.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    M.M. was not classically beautiful like so many fashion models.. From some angles and without make-up her face could seem much less than glamorous. But for guys of her era – and any other era – classical beauty and/or glamorousness are way in second place to what Marilyn had so much of – which is actually hard to define without crude referrences to penile tumesence. That is the quality that “beauty” is hoping to achieve but often gets wrong.

    A few months ago we were talking about HB10 and when I mentioned Marilyn Monroe the guys in the discussion agreed and no one called her too fat or disagreed. I think that is telling of how many find her too fat at least in this blog.

  • Esau

    Does this mean we now have liberty to post pictures? A gem from my misspent youth, here is a clip of (IMHO) one of the sexiest non-sex scenes in all of geekdom, circa 1976:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMlHZNMH5KA

    The young Jenny Agutter is decidedly curvy and effortlessly hot; with her and GB in the same room, where would your eyes turn?

    Note also, the prescient depiction of the modern casual SMP. That’s what good science fiction is for, if you ask me. :)

  • Passer_By

    @anacoana

    “I think that is telling of how many find her too fat at least in this blog.”

    I don’t find her too fat. In fact, if I was going to bang one of the versions of marilyn that Susan posted above, it would be the heavy version. She’s A-ok. I just don’t get the whole “most beautiful goddess that ever lived since Helen of Troy” thing. She’s well above average, but I can’t say much more than that. Maybe guys back then were all wowed by the dye job and the fake mole. I dunno.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    She’s well above average, but I can’t say much more than that. Maybe guys back then were all wowed by the dye job and the fake mole. I dunno.

    Had you seen her movies?

  • Passer_By

    @anacaona

    “Had you seen her movies”

    Honestly, no – just the pictures and a couple pinups. Was she a sex machine, or something? I know gay guys are just gaga over her – not sure that’s a ringing endorsement for those of us who actually want to have sex with women.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Honestly, no – just the pictures and a couple pinups. Was she a sex machine, or something? I know gay guys are just gaga over her – not sure that’s a ringing endorsement for those of us who actually want to have sex with women.

    You should. Her body language,her voice, her smile…that completes the HB10. Also gay men “want to be like her” it doesn’t men that straight men don’t want to bang her like crazy. If you notice travesties usually pick voluptuous sexy women to emulate and love the gay fashion industry wants sticks which is different from them wanting to emulate those sticks so don’t be so quick to think there is funny business going on.
    I recommend Gentlemen Prefer them blond and/or Some like it hot for starters.

  • Passer_By

    Ok, thanks. I’ll look for them on cable – and I’ll keep a bottle of Jergens handy. :)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Oops cultural slip
    Travesty is what is normally known here as drag queen’s and/or female impersonators. You are not going to find many trying to imitate Gisselle but the big sex symbols.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Ok, thanks. I’ll look for them on cable – and I’ll keep a bottle of Jergens handy.

    Ewww too much info. ;)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Miss Lurk

    Personally, I will not ever have super curves and am the black university geek version of the second photo Jesus Mahoney recently uploaded (but not nearly as, in my opinion, playfully pretty). Some people will feel like him: that I’m too childish and boyish looking, but I just keep in mind that the person I love will love my look and find it sexy and feminine the way it is in addition to my personality. You have to focus on what personally pertains to your unique situation and disregard what doesn’t.

    I didn’t mean any personal offense by that. I’m sure that type appeals to many men. I hope my comment isn’t what’s driving you away.

  • M3

    Lurk

    Personally, I will not ever have super curves and am the black university geek version of the second photo Jesus Mahoney recently uploaded (but not nearly as, in my opinion, playfully pretty). Some people will feel like him: that I’m too childish and boyish looking, but I just keep in mind that the person I love will love my look and find it sexy and feminine the way it is in addition to my personality. You have to focus on what personally pertains to your unique situation and disregard what doesn’t.

    We all struggle to live within our means. I’ve already accepted (perish the thought) that i am not gods gift to women aesthetically during the best of days. I have worked on defining my physique to be very attractive IMO to where i’m very happy taking my shirt off and showing off.

    But i have to work within the percentile of those who are attracted to me now and come to terms with the fact there are some things i will not be able to change/overcome.

    Lots of women like hair. My dad’s gene’s put a stop to that :) Without stemcell research, it’s Cpt. Picard time for me.

    Lots of women like roughage/5 oclock shadow. I can’t even get just past noon shadow. :( stupid follicles.

    Lots of women want a beaming beautiful smile. Althought i’m looking into it now, it will be about 4 years for me to fix my biggest regret in life.

    Change what you can within reason (and stay away from surgery), purge the rest from your mind. I’m not worried about you, i think you got a good mindframe your working from. We will not be all things to all people. Focus on those who will be happy with who you are, as long as you’re happy with yourself first.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    If we’re talking the “ideal” for girls from this grad student’s perspective, I think this is pretty close. From one of my favorite travel destinations:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIsIf94ma3Q

    Now for the record, I’m not saying any of those girls are likely to be someone I’d want to date, or that girls have to be anything close to that for me to consider them attractive enough to date… but I think it’s a good example of what would make me go “DAMN!” as I’m walking through campus.

    Personally, I don’t think I’d give a second look to either GB or MM. Neither do anything for me.

  • tvmunson

    @ Cheerful re Marilyn

    When she died, she was 36 years old, old for a Hollywood sex symobl, or at the very least on the precipice. Her weight loss (noticeable) may have been an attemtp to look younger; in those days, exercise wasn’t that big a deal, and I think a lot of women avoided serious exercise as they were afraid of looking manly. As someone noted, the camera loved her. In an unguarded moment, she would look more like the black and white I suppose. But get her soem makeup, light her up-a star!

  • Wudang

    Susan, the Five Tibetans is a famous yoga sequence consisting of five movements which you do from 1-21 times each depending on what you feel like. It varies how effective it is for people, some get huge effects while for others it is nothing special. I have have done a lot of yoga but the Five Tibetans was just remarkably effective for me so I tend to recomend people try it. It is great to do in the mornings. Since you are a beginer it takes some time to asses how usefull any sort of yoga is for you. It takes time before one feels the energy it produces at all or as strongly as it eventually does. For me I felt nothing the first times I did yoga and the bam I got this huge rush of energy that was kinda like an endorphin rush but different and more profound. The more I did the mroe I got of that energy. For some that takes longer to feel any or much of.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang

      Thanks for the yoga info. I plan to first try yoga classes at my gym, since they’re included in membership. They have several different kinds so I can sample several things. If the quality isn’t great, there are yoga studios around. What really surprised me about the weekend was how physically challenging it was. I was working hard and getting my heart rate up at least some of the time.

  • J

    Hi Munch–How are you?