I. The female form is endlessly fascinating to both men and women, and we’ve had many discussions and debates at HUS about what constitutes beauty or sexual attractiveness. Italian artist Anna Utopia Giordano has conducted an interesting exercise by altering classic paintings of the female nude to adhere to contemporary beauty standards. From Flavorwire:
In her Venus project, Italian artist Anna Utopia Giordano remixes some of the most celebrated nudes of art history, giving them an extreme Photoshop makeover. Essentially, she turns the icons of beauty of bygone centuries into the breasty waifs currently mass-marketed as ideal in today’s society. She asks, “What would have happened if the aesthetic standard of our society had belonged to the collective unconscious of the great artists of the past?” The results are stark and varied. While some ladies might be bettered by a tug at the waistline and pump to the bust, others may seem off and almost disturbingly adolescent. It makes us wonder if the girls of yesteryear — the ones with the skinny forms idolized by today’s fashion industry — would have stared up at the comparatively Rubenesque builds of the pin-ups of their day with envy.
What I find interesting is the modern day equating of femininity with boyishness. Unlike the flappers in the 20s, though, who were ideally flat-chested and prepubescently male in their appearance, the 21st c. equivalent has waiflike limbs with large breasts. It’s a fascinating slideshow – see it HERE.
II. Danny from 504 has written an interesting post about his grandfather Paw Paw’s natural Game. A natural ladies’ man, Paw Paw shared his secrets with Danny on a recent visit home to New Orleans. It’s all about taking a ton of shots, and not sweating the misses. Easier said than done, but a good read.
III. The Art of Manliness has an excellent article on eye contact. It covers the most effective uses of eye contact in business, when you mean to indimidate someone, dealing with other men, connecting with women, and public speaking. They also give some helpful tips on how not to “be a creeper.” Written for men, but there’s a lot of useful information for women as well.
IV. Little Known Statistics On Sex and Relationships by Eric Barker.
Most likely to generate discussion at HUS:
1. A woman will get chatted up in a bar 6 minutes faster if she is wearing make up.
This might lead one to wonder if the wearing of makeup signals promiscuity, but yesterday I happened to read this in an article in the March issue of Elle magazine:
In October, researchers, led by Nancy Etcoff, an assistant clinical professor of psychology at Harvard, studied people’s immediate reactions to women barefaced and in varying levels of makeup and found that those wearing makeup were more likely to be perceived as amiable, trustworthy, and competent. Even women who opted for glamorous looks were perceived as more competent than those who favored a natural look.
2. 98% of Americans have experienced unrequited love.
No apex fallacy here.
3. For every $5000 extra a woman earns over her partner, their risk of divorce goes up by 5%.
Sources may be found at Barking Up the Wrong Tree.
{ 325 comments… read them below or add one }
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I. The chick riding the clamshell is hot in the first pic (perspective makes her appear a tad chunky on the right but shes really kicking her hip out). The second pic looks scary weird. Anorexic. Tits way too low on the body. Feel like she’s gonna break. But well defined abdominal region.
II. Sounds like an old take on shoot at 100 targets, you’re bound to hit 1 in a nutshell.
III. Making tons of mental notes off this article.
IV. 1. Peacock effect.
IV. 2. This one shocked me. 98% have experienced unrequited love. Everyone was a teenager at one point. The shocking part is the 2%. Did they grow up to be serial killers?
IV. 3. Interesting. It only took a 10% risk increase to actualize into a divorce in my case.
I think Anna Utopia Giordano’s experiment carries too much weight. The shock that the doctored paintings inspire is caused more by seeing the juxtaposition of the new CONTENT of the paintings with the old MEDIUM (i.e. toned women depicted in oil paintings) than by some kind of deviance from a “natrual” standard for the femenie figure.
Suggesting that the paintings depict a more appropriate standard for women because they are beautiful paintings is like asssuming that an actor’s political views are sound because he or she is an incredible actor.
http://therulesrevisited.blogspot.com/
The altered forms of the female paintings disturb me a bit. They look so weird. I think this is because the altered images may not adhere to the golden ratio as the unaltered paintings have.
Thank you Tia. Apprciate the link love. Paw-Paw said he’d love to buy you a drink. Lol.
Actually surprised Angelina Jolies leg didn’t end up on that photo.
Time to crank up Photoshop.
OT Southern Poverty Law Center declares manosphere to be hate group.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites
The Southern Poverty Law Center is a shakedown operation that scares little old ladies into donating their Social Security checks to prevent the Nazi hoards from taking over. Which we all know is just over the horizon.
Morris Dees should be in jail.
Picture on the left is better, but to be honest I would still prefer the woman in the center to be a little more curvy.
I saw a picture online somewhere with a very curvy woman on laying sideways on a couch. The subtext read:
Curves. If I wanted to date a woman with the figure of a 10 year old boy, I’d date a 10 year old boy.
Truer words may never have been said.
Found it!
http://www.clubrapid.com/picture/543
Giggady giggady
Men overestimate their ideal muscle mass. I’ve also read that women also idealized skinny fashion models more than men. The obsession with skinny is primarily driven by women in the same way that obsession with bodybuilding is primarily driven by men. Though, I believe that male sexual preferences are more strictly rooted in biology and thus less malleable to culture.
I can’t find the article, but if female fashion models conform to male sexual appetites, they would be built like porn stars. I don’t know if that is any better. However, if male muscle magazines were written according to female sexual appetites, all the models would look like Johnny Depp.
Also, the faces of female models tend to be masculine. Men prefer the more feminine features found in the general population. The creator of the ideal face mask (based on golden ratios) said that the selection of females models differs in the way men select their mates. More women and more gay men are involved in selecting the female forms that are held up as the ideal. This distorts what heterosexual men actually find most attractive.
INTP
That makes a lot of sense.
@Danny
I would love to have a drink with Paw Paw. I know I would be totally charmed by him.
Susan, in that slideshow, a lot of those revised figures were not waifs (though at least one was), just thinner versions of the original.
Something that rarely gets pointed out is that artists (not modernist artists, but artists of realism) renditions of the female figure was already getting thinner starting in the late 1800′s (and, possibly, even earlier).
Basically, as the West became wealthier, and starvation a less likely outcome for the growing upper and middle classes, the female ideal became thinner.
Though, as far as I can tell, the really, really skinny version of the female form only became popular (again, amongst the wealthy) during the crazy economic boom of the 1920′s (i.e. flappers) and later when gay fashion designers took over (say, starting in the 60′s and 70′s and really taking off in the 90′s).
Lastly, it should always be pointed out that what Fashion Designers and Madison Ave want to push on us is rarely the same thing as what the average 18, or 28, or 38 year old guy is wanting to download online.
I don’t have the time to hunt down the various studies and surveys, but, in general, guys tend to NOT like girls who are “skinny” (as that word has become defined over the last 20 years), but prefer thin or slim girls with B or C cups and wide hips…yes, guys actually like hips.
This one shocked me. 98% have experienced unrequited love. Everyone was a teenager at one point. The shocking part is the 2%. Did they grow up to be serial killers?
Reminds me of the old joke about the Kinsey survey in which 98% of men were found to have masturbated within the last week and 2% were found to be pathological liars.
A website that advocated MURDERING ALL BABY BOYS is not included in the SPLC’s list of hate groups, but r/mensrights is?
http://radicalhub.com/2011/10/04/radical-feminism-in-the-21st-century/#comment-3597
Primal reaction: I want to impregnate most of the women in the original pics, the retouched ones I just want to have sex with.
The originals look more… ‘matronly’, and there’s something a bit off with the edited versions. They look different than an authentically slim girl would look like.
@someINTP
Good points. I did read somewhere that men will always prefer a .7 WHR unless a different ratio becomes higher status. That is what we are seeing now. Giselle Bundchen has a WGR of close to .9, but plenty of guys would say she’s smokin.
That’s exactly what I thought- the ones on the left looked more like mothers, the ones on the right like.. victoria’s secret models. possibly airbrushed. It’s interesting to read the male reaction about impregnation!
.9 Waist to Hip Ratio? That’s so weird. I couldn’t imagine having that body proportion.
I would agree with most posters here.
If you want to know what guys like or think is ideal you go to a porn site
If you want to know what gay male fashion designers and other females think is ideal you go to a fashion show
Their ideals regarding the body are not the same
There are some guys that do really prefer the slimmer girl (luckily for me in the past) but the majority like boobs, bum and a bit of slap.
If I go out (rarely these days) in a posh frock I will get a fraction of the male attention compared to a similarly attired girl who has cleavage and hips.
I have many times heard from guys that ‘such a such’ an actress was too skinny for them.
The crazy thing is that we have teenage girls buying into the media crap and starving themselves to death because they think guys want skeletal model types which they simply do not.
Sarky articles from the odd minority guy suggesting girls diet more dont help of course!
There are currently 2 blonde TV presenters in the uk who often work together. One is skinny- the other is curvy. They are often compared and contrasted in the british press.
They are both annoyingly pretty. I only know of 2 guys that prefer the skinny one (my OH and a friend), but all the other guys I know have expressed a strong preference for the curvy one.
Go figure.
I would love to know the numbers on HS and college aged guys that have a poster of Giselle on their wall.
“I’ve also read that women also idealized skinny fashion models more than men. The obsession with skinny is primarily driven by women in the same way that obsession with bodybuilding is primarily driven by men.”
As someone who has been both “too skinny” (5’5 at 110-115 lbs in highschool) and on the curvier side, I’ve gotten more male compliments when I was curvier than when I was thin. I believe men like breasts, hips and an ass.
I’m not trying to demean anyone’s body type. Both thin, average and even some heavier women can look great.
body building guys are quite repellent- very few women like that look imo
@Jess
Yeah, I don’t mind some muscular definition..but not to the point where it’s too beefy. Thin/average with muscular arms and broad shoulders would be ideal for me.
A big reason that the skinny pictures look odd too is that those art styles of the old classical paintings focused heavily on defining the muscle structures of women much more than they do today. They also did this primarily through shadow work.
When you take those shadows and simply reapply them to a now skinnier version of the painting it just looks freaking weird.
Personally, I subscribe to the look of beauty being that with some good hips, chest, and ass like Warm Woman describes. I don’t want to worry about breaking a woman when things get…. intense.
Painting and drawing the human body is very difficult. The slightest “off” will be detected, even if it’s mostly subconscious. I’ve been trying to do some paintings of human figures, and the less clothing there is, the more difficult it is. The photoshopped version is mostly anatomically correct, but that slight difference will result in weirdness by subconscious perception.
Curves. If I wanted to date a woman with the figure of a 10 year old boy, I’d date a 10 year old boy.
This reminds me Oscar Wilde letter to his first fiance after he married his wife “I got a woman with the body of a 14 year old boy”. I think that is the most exemplary case of a man so in the closet that he though he was in a car shop.
Basically, as the West became wealthier, and starvation a less likely outcome for the growing upper and middle classes, the female ideal became thinner.
Is a bit like tanning being tan in the past meant that you worked outside thus being pale was the hit. Then it became a sign that you could pay for vacations in the beach and tanning became the hot thing for the rich. Now with skin cancer being pale is slowly coming back although the lower classes still need to catch up. Whatever means higher status is what means you are hot.
Two thoughts: The person who remixed the photos of the paintings had all X chromosomes. Therefore, she was virtually un-able to see the female form as men see it and so she created images that look un-natural to men. Not hot or ugly; just un-natural. Like something not found in nature. Second, it is largely a waste of time to try to sheep-herd, or shame, or cajole men into getting boners for womens shapes that their penis just cannot get into.
I get the impression that women are about 1000 times more influenced by pre-selection and social-proof than men. See, nothing could be sweeter for a guy than to be super turned on by a chick that other guys did not want. No competition – great – that is if she wants what you can offer.
I mean, a guy is not in a good place if he falls in lust with a repulsive celluite fire-plug with deranged ideas of her actual self-worth.
Back when many of the originals were painted, nutrition and getting enough food was the anomaly so women tended to be thin, and dirty (not enough bathing) as well as a lot of other things. The women who had enough to eat, and the means to bathe were healthier and more likely to have healthy off-spring. Today, that is reversed – the ones who are heavy tend to have horrible nutrition and do not take care of themselves as much as the women who care more about their appearance and health.
Men tend to find attractive women who will produce healthy off-spring, just as a smooth complexion tends to mean less disease and therefore someone who is healthier overall. Men, as well as women, unconsciously find what will produce better off-spring more attractive – although women also tend to have that whole difference from wanting to mate, and wanting a male who will take care of them when they are pregnant thing going on.
Lesson from all of this – today, be thin if you’re female and care about your looks. Men – don’t be pansies – women respond to what they have always responded to – a man who will take charge and make things happen. Too many people spend too much time criticizing reality rather then just enjoying it.
I don’t think Giordano could care less when men like. She did not come at the project from the viewpoint of sexual attractiveness. She appears to be interested from a sociological perspective – the female ideal has changed dramatically in the species in 500 years. I believe she’s speaking about culture – the fashion industry, and the ready availability of plastic surgery. She gave several of the female figures breast implants.
The original painters were not painting sexually titillating scenes. They were entirely focused on the beauty of the female form.
Since you bring it up, however, what shapes men find sexually arousing has changed dramatically as well. This is easily observed by noting who the highest status males select for both short and long-term mating. I find this fascinating, personally. Are men changing and dictating to the fashion industry what will sell? Or is the fashion industry dictating to men what is hot, even though it’s aimed at the female consumer?
I don’t think this explains it. First, the painters, the patrons and the people who viewed the paintings were all wealthy. Second, obesity and poverty are far from mutually exclusive, even then.
I guess you’re not a fan of Renaissance art.
The fashion industry ideal, which is what Giordano is addressing here, has a BMI so low she is unlikely to be menstruating, much less producing healthy offspring. The prevalence of eating disorders in the young female population suggests that low BMI women have very poor nutrition. A common modeling trick is to eat wet cotton balls for a meal. They give a great feeling of fullness, are easily passed and have zero calories!
Punny!
Did Giordano suggest the Renaissance ideal is the appropriate standard for women? It’s interesting – the men feel quite defensive about this project. I think it’s very interesting to compare and contrast the two ideals. One could make the same point (though less elegantly) by doctoring photos of runway models to look obese.
I think it’s natural and not the least bit surprising that women might be interested in the changes in fashion re the female form over time. The 20s, as I mentioned in the post, glorified the boyish figure with no breasts or waistline. It certainly wasn’t men who drove that, it was something else – something happening in society. Post WWI, the era of Prohibition, the fact that women had thrown away their corsets? The 20s were also quite promiscuous – those boyish young girls were getting busy, and the men snapped them up.
In his fantasy novel The Screwtape Letters, C S Lewis has the senior devil tell his nephew (a devil-in-training) that humans should be encouraged to believe that extremely thin women are the most attractive, since this form of beauty is even more transient than most, and hence such a trend is helpful in keeping the humans perpetually dissatisfied and miseraable.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/women-now-empowered-by-everything-a-woman-does,1398/
@ Susan
Ahh let the skinny shaming begin.
“It’s interesting – the men feel quite defensive about this project. I think it’s very interesting to compare and contrast the two ideals. One could make the same point (though less elegantly) by doctoring photos of runway models to look obese. ”
Fat chicks can’t have healthy babies. Lets get that out of the way.
Now lets see why men could be offended:
Ohh ya off the top of my head its offensive to be told your mate is of lower quality than the chick who can’t get a boyfriend (thats a fail btw).
The suggestion that men dating skinny women are gay could also add some sting.
Seriously, do you even know what an 18.5BMI looks like? Thats the minimum for “normal” weight. My fiance is 5′ 99pounds and still comes in at 19.3. I toss her up on my shoulder and carry around for shits and giggles and she is still a healthy weight.
Being an underweight BMI is nearly frickin impossible unless your dead or poor.
As for whats most attractive? Its the normal range of 18.5 to 22.5. Go online calculate your BMI and if its not in their fix it.
Last, I’m not gay. I watch the vic fashion show once a year. Thats the extent of your avg mans understanding and caring of the fashion industry.
If you want to know what gay guys and women find hot go watch a runway model. If you want to know what straight dudes find hot go look at the women on budweiser commercials or porn and aim for that.
Regarding the updating of the classics. Well, the altered images don’t look too far from a classic model as far as I’m concerned: the classic .7 ratio. I think that we’ve just arrived at more refined version of that in modern culture.
As far as Susan’s observation about flappers, I don’t think pop culture is always an accurate reflection of what men really find attractive. I think the whole reason guys found flappers to be attractive is that they tended to be promiscuous, by the accounts I’ve read, not because guys took a sudden liking to women who would make a utility pole look curvy. The modern equivalent of the flapper would be the Snooki/JWoww clones that seem to be so common in more urban areas. I know of NO guy that prefers that look over that of a Scarlett Johansson look-a-like. But put that oompa loompa meets Ed Hardy look on a reasonably fit woman, and guys will be all over her? Why? To most guys, that Jersey Shore look signals promiscuity. It’s not because it’s beautiful.
Please note that the above is where some women drastically go awry. Some woman who sport the Jersey Shore look aren’t promiscuous and really are looking for a LTR, yet they can’t why all the guys who were after them were just about the sex. Ladies, just like dressing for the job you want, not the one you have, dress for the relationship you want. Note that I didn’t say the man you want. Many of you really do want the d-bag kind of man sporting Ed Hardy and dripping the Dark Triad in a sexual sense, but he’s not going to commit to you. Give that up. Stopping dressing in ways that signal to that kind of guy that you are easy prey. Feel free to be sexy, but if you dress like a hooker, be prepared to deal with guys who act like Johns. Anyway…
If you are looking for cultural representations of “beauty” that represent what are actually beautiful, at least, look for ones with staying power. That applies to men, at least. Women tend to toy with and get bored with a certain appearance a lot faster than men do, and I suspecting that the so-called “changing beauty standards” over the years has more to do with women being women in that regard and less to do with what is actually beautiful to male nature. Representations of beauty in any era are just like any social gathering today: women dressing to impress other women, with appeal to men being a factor but not a deciding factor.
“It’s interesting – the men feel quite defensive about this project. I think it’s very interesting to compare and contrast the two ideals. One could make the same point (though less elegantly) by doctoring photos of runway models to look obese. ”
I won’t speak for other men, but I’m not feeling particularly defensive about it. What I will say is that obesity is an epidemic in the United States (a HUGE factor that keeps a lot of women from being attractive to the opposite sex, and studies like these tend to be touted by people who advocate the position that if we could just accept women “as they are” and that if we men had “realistic standards,” the world would be a better place.
In other words, these kind of things tend to be grist for the “fat acceptance” mill, and sometimes us men get the idea that we men are being told by people who march out these kind of exercises that we should just flip a switch and suddenly start salivating over obese women just because some artists (more than one of whom was gay) back in the Renaissance preferred their models to be a little extra soft (note, NOT obese) is abhorrent to a lot of us. It’s particularly annoying when we look around us and 2/3rds of the women we see are just not attractive due to them being fat…and that’s before you factor in any other personality traits that might be a turn-off or other physiological turn-offs.
That said, I like my women legitimately curvy, voluptuous, and nicely proportioned. Please note that I mean “curvy” and “voluptuous” as classically defined, not as the polite euphemisms for fat that so many women currently use them for, particularly on dating sites. The .7 ratio is definitely in full effect for me.
On point 3, that’s simply more evidence of hypergamy at work and usually more opportunities to engage in hypergamous behavior.
@lokland
BMI isn’t always accurate. My last boyfriend was very slim, but he had a high BMI. He also worked out a lot. I have a girlfriend that’s 5’5 and 160 lbs, but she looks like she could be 125. She runs and bikes a lot.
@Susan
I did a little research on Gisele, and here what I found:
How Much Does Gisele Bundchen Weigh?
57kg or 125 pounds
How Tall Is Gisele Bundchen?
5’11″ or 180cm
What Are Gisele Bundchen Measurements?
35B-23-35.5 (89-59-90)
Now, I’m not sure about your math, but my math puts her VERY close to the holy .7, not anywhere near .9. Where are you getting .9 from?
@leapofabeta
I’m now confused about what curvy is supposed to mean these days. A lot of overweight women are using that description on their dating profile, whereas the true curvy women are received with skepticism (men being scared that they must be fat offline).
It’s tough how to describe yourself when you’re a woman that’s not thin, but you’re not fat either.
@ ww
I agree. My BMI is near 27 but I’m not fat.
However, how many people do you know that are rocking enough muscle to skew the BMI chart? Especially women?
@ WarmWoman
To me, a woman has to have very specific measurements to be considered curvy. In essence, the waist measurement needs to be significantly smaller than the bust and hip measurements, creating the hourglass figure. I have exactly a .7 waist/hip ratio, but I am also nowhere near a size 2. I have never had a problem with men, in that department. Men love ass, thighs, and breasts. What men don’t like are large arms and a huge stomach/gut. The last quality, in particular, throws off the hourglass shape.
If you have a tiny waist, and a large bust size/hip size, that’s what I consider curvy to be.
@ww
“I’m now confused about what curvy is supposed to mean these days.”
Hourglass figure = curvy.
Big tits/hips but fat = fat, not curvy.
Anything else is average or thin.
Susan,
Somewhat on topic. Here’s something one can do with an art history major:
http://www.cheerstoart.com/
I can attest that it makes a great date. Sold out too. The proprietors are right down your alley.
@ Desiderius
I live in Cincinnati, and that place isn’t too far from where I live. That seems right up my alley. I’ll have to keep that place in mind.
.9 Waist to Hip Ratio? That’s so weird. I couldn’t imagine having that body proportion.
My reply:
Not so unusual; there are plenty of women who are “inverted triangle” or “apple shaped,” or who are “rectangular” shaped and who have those proportions….
What bothers me, though, is that some of the apple shape analysis seems to presume that all women with this shape have fat stomachs….It is true, though, that an apple shaped woman who doesn’t keep in shape will put in the fat in her stomach. Those who are in better shape tend towards the triangle look. Some women who have the rectangular look might approach the triangle as they exercise more and get more defintion…
I think about competitive swimmers I knew in school or who were members of the crew team. Today, I think of the serious gym rats I know who are in the gym about five days per week, doing cardio for like an hour or more, light weights, abdominal excercises….With respect to the latter, the bmi might say they are overweight or even approaching obese, but the muscle tone underneath makes them look solid as compared to fat.
So how should a woman like that describe herself? She might be big busted, but her stomach is flat, as is her butt, and her hips are not as wide as her bust area…similar to the woman in the second picture above….
I’d describe that shape as “Average”. The lack of the hourglass shape wouldn’t make it classifiable as curvy.
If the stated goal of this blog is to encourage the formation of healthy, stable, LTRs, I cannot think of many worse moves than to propagate the notion that men will not (or should not) mind it when their womenfolk go from svelte to zaftig. The more men think that women think that is OK, the less willing to commit they will be. It is roughly equivalent to guys announcing that they see nothing wrong with dropping out of the work force after marriage if they feel like it and besides, they should always be “accepted for who I am”.
The whole concept of demanding to be accepted for who you are is deeply corrupt and highly aggressive. Under the spin of warmth created by words like “acceptance” the phrase is really an assertion of the innate superiority or of having a higher social rank than the receiver of the comment. Because the unspoken but inescape-able implication of “accept me for who I AM” is “regardless of what I chose to DO – because who I am is a seperate thing from what I do.”". That is language used honestly by Aristocrats with inherited titles. Or to some extent like the military where an underling is compelled to salute the uniform of an officer, not the flawed person wearing it.
All these comments about hip to waist ratios, big ass/flat ass, D cup vs. A cup, shapes and BMI’s.
I don’t know what beauty is.. I’ll just know it when i see it. And by “I”, i mean my dick.
First, the painters, the patrons and the people who viewed the paintings were all wealthy.
Right. There is a reason why the term Fat Cats is rarely used for wealthy people. The wealthy, nowadays, are much less likely to be fat and the poor are much more likely to be overweight. The patrons, back then, were able to afford the food, and leisure, that could enable them to be healthy and plump. And they were the ones who got painted.
Second, obesity and poverty are far from mutually exclusive, even then.
Again, obesity and poverty rarely went hand in hand before the Industrial Revolution (actually, it was the development of highways that really drove the lower and middle class weight gain). The average working class person simply did too much walking and manual labor to get plump or fat.
The
fashion industrygay maleideal, which is what Giordano is addressing here, has a BMI so low she is unlikely to be menstruating, much less producing healthy offspring.
There is a reason why the Fashion Industry* cares little about celebrating girls who are likely to be menstruating (i.e. noticeable child bearing hips).
* An industry dominated by gay men (and women who choose to move to places [i.e. Manhattan, LA, London, Paris, Milan, etc.] where they can not afford to have families and are unlikely to be focusing on marriage and children)
=================================
Also, this response to Doc:
The prevalence of eating disorders in the young female population suggests that low BMI women have very poor nutrition.
is off the mark. I really doubt that Doc was trying to say that the average young man finds the stick thin, dour faced woman (with no ass or hips) attractive. He was simply trying to explain why a more plump woman was focus on in the past and slimmer versions are often preferred today.
It’s interesting – the men feel quite defensive about this project.
Not completely different than how many men reacted to Kate Bolick being referred to as being beautiful.
Massive increase in wealth. The huge increase in wealth, especailly by those that were already wealthy to being with, enabled many to subvert social norms.
That subversion soon became much less popular during the Great depression.
Same thing happened in the 60′s. Both the 1920s and 1960s saw a major increase in Liberal/Leftist ideology. The fervor for that liberalism really waned in the 1930s and 1970s (i.e. Great Depression and Stagflation).
After the economy picked up again in the early to mid 90′s we saw a massive increase in Political Correctness (i.e. Liberalism/Leftism). Economy started to falter in the late 90′s and early 2000s and that hard PC push soon waned.
Now we have a population that does not get that affected by a middling-to-poor economy (i.e. the New Elite, that have not really hurt much at all during the last 13 years) that continues to go on and on about Gay Marriage, Hybrid Vehicles, etc. while the rest double-down on old fashioned issues (i.e. Crime, Economy, etc.)
@ WW
Sassy describes actual curvy well. Curvy is that you have very specific body shape and curves – you have an hour glass figure so you have curves at your hips, bust, and possibly ass.
Curvy does not mean that you have curves because you have rolls of fat, ugh.
To me the biggest attraction is generated not by a specific ‘set’ of these numbers, but by them being well proportioned. Someone having a crazy hip to waist ratio without any ass or bust looks weird. Having an ass but not the other two also weird, as well as sporting D bust size without any hips or ass. With those proportions height can make a big difference on emphasizing them as well.
I can find myself equally attracted to someone with a B cup, some hips, and a small but fit ass at 5’3 ish as someone with a D cup, very distinct hip to waist ratio, and larger but still fit ass at 5’8 (closer to my height at 5’10″). All about proportions being beautiful. I don’t know the genetics, but I’d be willing to wager the attractive proportions signal a boatload of good genes.
Probably every man that isn’t a chubby chaser would say that he wants to be able to pick you up and be able to have intense make out sessions with your legs around him without even having to worry about his strength giving out. That is usually the cut off for attraction of any male of even moderate attraction – it works well as a rule of thumb for height, weight, and personality. If I can’t picture myself doing that with you because you’re too tall, too overweight, or have too much of a stick up your ass that doing so would cause internal bleeding, then its pretty much over.
The reason why the female figure has changed is because the view of sex has changed. Do upper-class women who have stick-thin figures want to have children? No, they contracept all of the time and have casual sex (or serial monogamy over and over again). They prioritize careers and having “liberating experiences” over motherhood and femininity. Do younger guys even want to reproduce? They’re too busy thinking about pornography, pleasure, recreative sex, sex toys, fetishes and whatnot to care about babies. Millenials guys have grown on a hypersexualized society. Any man under 40 has grown in an extremely hypersexualized society and it’s sex, sex, sex. It’s pretty easy just to see why the female body type has changed. Patriarchal culture encourages reproduction and therefore we have curvy women, feminist culture encourages recreation (e.g. contraception, sodomy) and therefore we have either stick-thin women (or obese women). Stick-thin women can’t menstruate and have the body of boys while obese women can’t breathe and probably won’t have successful pregnancies. Our body image has become distored because our view of sex has become distored. On one hand it’s nothing and doesn’t matter (hook-up culture), on the other hand sex is everything (hypersexualization). At first they may look contradictory but are pretty much allies. We have an epidemic of anorexics, extreme fatties and the fake (silicone boobs, etc) because sex has been deprived of genuine nourishment and has been distorted. That’s my 2 cents.
I meant “distorted” sorry.
@Sassy and Lokland
I have been told by men that I have an hourglass shape. My last boyfriend didn’t want me to succumb to my mom’s pressure to losing weight, because he didn’t want me to lose my curves.
I read somewhere that men on online sites don’t bother using “curvy” in their search engines, due to the amount of heavy women using it. So, I’ve stuck with the term “average.”
@ WW:
When I was online dating I listed my body type as “curvy” in my profile. Then in my profile itself I stated that I was “taking curvy back from the overweight.”
Complete with a full-body pic for proof.
I read somewhere that men on online sites don’t bother using “curvy” in their search engines, due to the amount of heavy women using it.
Obese women make me sick. They have hijacked a beautiful term for their own gain. They’re as sick as the very thin chicks who don’t menstruate. Everything is distorted, there is no balance. I’m happy for Scarlett Johansson. Now THAT’s a curve girl
Instead of curvy, why don’t these obese women call themselves BBW? That’s more accurate.
Wait a minute, it isn’t. Obesity isn’t beautiful )=
Primal reaction: I want to impregnate most of the women in the original pics, the retouched ones I just want to have sex with.
KK has illustrated my point quite vivedly.
@SayWhaat
Ha, clever. I knew another woman that also titled her profile “Dangerous curves”ahead.
@ WarmWoman, SayWhaat, and Stacy
I agree with all of you. Actual curvy women can’t use the term anymore because very overweight/obese women have taken it over for their own usage. On my Okcupid profile, my body type is listed as average, but I authentically have a curvy body.
Trying to wrestle that term away from fat acceptance groups doesn’t seem like it’s worth the effort though. They can keep curvy. I’ll take “stacked” instead.
Don’t they have “voluptuous” as a term on okcupid? I’m not sure what that means in the online world now these days either. They should have an “hourglass” option.
Oh, shit, you mean okcupid makes you choose one of these options from a drop down list of ‘what is your body type’ or something?
No wonder the term is being taken over on dating sites. I can see voluptuous going the same way in that situation, just as you’re saying Warm Woman.
Petition for the hourglass option, and then beat off the (truely, not skinny shaming) anorexic girls that will try and take it with a stick. Shouldn’t be hard, I bet a fan would do too.
Warm Woman:
Voluptuous? Hourglass?
My reply:
I agree, to be really accurate, they probably should use words like pear, hourglass, rectangle, apple, inverted triangle!
I have always thought of voluptuous as meaning being “stacked,” ie., large breasts.
Even then, what is average for what, compare to what? I would love to know, what proportion of women have what type of shape today?
An overweight pear shape might look more like some of the women in the classical photos in that all of the weight is in the hips. An overweight apple shape might have everything in the waist area, same for an overweight inverted triangle, but more might show up in the breast/chest area.
An overweight hourglass might have weight all around, but in proportion…here I think of a plus size model like Ashley Graham. That seems to be the trend in plus size models, hourglass figures, curvy, but bigger.
What about bone structure? A small frame, medium frame, large frame? Different types of frames will carry weight differently. Someone had an interesting site on this once, a photographic bmi chart, where people of the same weight and height posted their photos and you could see the differences in bone structure within one size/height or across the same weight but at a different height….
Rum re 49,
thats fine as long as women can divorce guys the minute they lose hair or show a bit of middle age spread….
Truth is, as you get older, gravity, sedentary jobs/lifestyles and calories take their toll. This is true for both genders.
Generally speaking girls are more forgiving than guys when it cones to looks- you are now suggesting guys should be even stricter?
Funny how half of these posts seem to devolve into a discussion of skinny vs ‘curvy’ women.
Hi Susan
Giselle Bundchen is the highest paid model in the world, but I don’t find her quite so attractive. I meet many women whom I consider far more attractive than Mrs. Bundchen — though not so well paid. I’m sure they might be thrilled to hear that. I also hear that Mrs. Bundchen is one of the most difficult models to collaborate with. So, she’s not that beautiful (to me) and she doesn’t have a good personality. As you can see, I am completely lost as why she is elevated as the western ideal. Asians and Westerners sometimes differ in what they find beautiful in women. I have to study hard to understand these things. For that, I must treat human culture and human biology separately. What does our biology have to say and what is learned behavior capable of overriding? This is the way I try to understand the sexes until a better idea emerges.
@sassy
I’d suggest you describe yourself as a “brick house”
From Susan’s post:
“For every $5000 extra a woman earns over her partner, their risk of divorce goes up by 5%.”
No doubt this will be spun as being a consequence of male insecurity instilled by the patriarchy.
@susan
“That is what we are seeing now. Giselle Bundchen has a WGR of close to .9, but plenty of guys would say she’s smokin.”
Only because she’s Giselle Bundchen, and they are lemmings. Put an unknown woman with the same ratio in front of them, and most guys would not like the body type so much.
If there is one benefit of internet porn, it’s that guys have a variety of options to choose from in private and to decide what their boner most responds to. Oh, who am I kidding? There are lots of benefits of internet porn.
As to the pictures in the project, some times I liked the first one better, sometimes the second, but, frankly, none of the were great. First of all, she often went overboard in slimming the women. Also, it’s not that the originals were too heavy, it’s that their tits were too small (for my taste) on a woman of that body type, and none of them were sufficiently hour glassed.
Okay, apparently I need educated. WGR…please break out that acronym for me? Because if it’s anything related to waist-hip ratio, then Gisele is, as I pointed out earlier, almost a dead-on .7, not a point .9. Can you clear that up before my head explodes from people repeating this .9 number? lol
@ Passer_By
*Whips out a microphone*
Chorus:
She’s a brick—-house
She’s mighty mighty, just lettin’ it all hang out
She’s a brick—-house
The lady’s stacked and that’s a fact,
ain’t holding nothing back.
She’s a brick—-house
She’s the one, the only one,
Built like an amazon
@buckeyebri
“Because if it’s anything related to waist-hip ratio, then Gisele is, as I pointed out earlier, almost a dead-on .7, not a point .9. ”
Doesn’t look like a .7 to me (see below), though .9 might be too high. Maybe her published measurements are just a lie.
http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A2KJkevbz1tPLXYAnXqJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DGisele%2BBundchen%26_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3DGisele%2BBundchen%26fr%3Dyfp-t-701-s%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D101&w=1300&h=1950&imgurl=blog.80millionmoviesfree.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F10%2Fgisele-bundchen.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.80millionmoviesfree.com%2Fcelebrity%2Fgisele-bundchen-works-the-streets&size=369.3+KB&name=Gisele+Bundchen+Works+The+Streets&p=Gisele+Bundchen&oid=acf58865145361bbf1179ea5e1c6e130&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-701-s&tt=Gisele%2BBundchen%2BWorks%2BThe%2BStreets&b=91&ni=120&no=101&tab=organic&ts=&sigr=12fipif3b&sigb=143d7f6p9&sigi=12bnu9vd6&.crumb=UnoLghzQJFy
@buckeyebri
I just checked out a bunch of pictures of her. There is no way those measurements are accurate. Her waste is maybe a little bigger than that (not much), and her hips seem much smaller.
@Passer_By
Do keep in mind at her height (5’11″), the distance between her waist and her hips is going to be longer, removing a more than a bit of curvature. I’d rather go with the measurements provided on several sites than to guess. I’m not going to distort facts just because it fits a certain narrative. Now, if someone can provide anywhere that gives her measurements in such a way that you can get a .9 WHR out of it, I’ll gladly stand corrected.
@bri
I’ll trust my lyin’ eyes over her promotional team. But suit yourself.
In the unlikely event your explanation is true, then taller women probably need a lower ratio.
@Passer_By
I understand that some people prefer to disbelieve information that doesn’t fit their picture of a situation, so suit yourself.
I do agree that in order to be height proportionate for her measurements, she probably needs a bigger chest and bigger set of hips, but her height combined with her measurements is HIGHLY believable. But once again, as you suggest to me, suit yourself.
I, for one, don’t find her all that attractive, but it’s not like men who are into her are suddenly lusting after telephone-pole shaped women either, as was suggested.
@Sassy
I heard that song somewhere in the background.
An exception that proves the rule:
There was one chubby girl in the dorm who most guys agreed was beautiful. Her face was in the dictionary of slang under “dish”. She had beautiful dark hair and eyes, a brilliant smile, and clear skin that tanned to an edible milk chocolate over winter break when her family went to Florida. Getting her to talk was like pulling teeth.
One fall I ran into her after she dropped the extra weight. She still looked great. She didn’t smile as much. She still didn’t hold up her end of a conversation.
“Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly goes to the bone.”
Almost every woman can manage being not-ugly all the way to the bone.
Yeah Frankie,
Because a man wanting a woman that provides something that he finds important – an attractive wife – in return to his providing security is SO MISOGYNISTIC.
Save us. Slay the vile dragon of misogyny before it burns down the forest in our way of seeing the truth.
Frankie
I got a nearly identical response when I made a brief comment a few days ago about the hazards of teaching girls/women that they were morally superior to men. And today you went straight to the ad homineme attack while bypassing completely the content of what I actually wrote. Now, who is the troll here?
@Rum
Who is propagating that notion? I was careful to avoid any such implication in the post and reiterated early in the thread that this has nothing to do with what men find sexually attractive.
Susan,
I had a good reconciliatory post all ready to go regarding our dust-up. In a nutshell, I thought you were sucking up to your target audience (I became cryptic as I started to question the accuracy/appropriateness of that take on things), but figured out a more productive way to look at things over the last week.
As I was checking over the rest of that thread to see if there was anything else that came up there that I needed to address (it was interesting to see how what I had to say was interpreted, and at times misinterpreted) I was taken completely aback at what you decided to do to Olive. The thing that came immediately to mind was Clinton’s treatment of Lewinsky pre-blue dress.
I’m sorry to say this, but I do not believe that I can any longer participate in your blog. I don’t imagine that you are entirely disappointed at this decision, and I regret that deeply.
You do have a bias (we all do) – it is toward the success of this venture, but that doesn’t justify in my mind your treatment of Olive, even were you correct about how her presence here affected that success.
I would be remiss is not thanking the many commenters (JM, Olive, Hope, Ana, Escoffier, Mike C, Badger, Esau, Caroline, Leap, TMunson, and many others – my apologies if I’ve forgotten anyone) for providing conversation of such rare intimacy, insight, and intelligence.
Your company will be dearly missed.
@Lockland
“Being an underweight BMI is nearly frickin impossible unless your dead or poor. ”
False. While I am neither dead, poor, nor anorexic, I fall just under the normal BMI range at 17.6.
(I am, however, on the freakishly tall end of the spectrum at 6′, which definitely skews things. I’d have to agree with the commenters that have made the point that relative curvature decreases with height–I’m at a 0.7 WHR, but I really wouldn’t classify myself as curvy.)
On a more frivolous link note, today’s Dilbert is a must-read; I think this link will work
http://wpcomics.washingtonpost.com/client/wpc/dt/2012/03/10/
Really sums it up, imho.
Did you ever consider that-
a) she was shy before she lost weight, and possibly she was shy *because* she was not thin
and b) she was still shy afterwards, and possibly standoffish because it was probably clear from the way guys (possibly including you) looked at and talked to her now was a lot nicer and more eager
that should be b) she was possibly standoffish because it was clear from the way guys looked at and talked to her that they cared about her existence a lot more, and were a lot nicer and more eager as a result
Frankie
Of course I deserve ad hominem attacks. We all do. Shit, if humans got what they deserved, we would all be on Devils Island. Maybe, in a way, we already are…
Which is precisely why I think that maintaining a gyno-suprematist mindset tends to make a person a little un-hinged. All sense of balance and porportion tends to get lost and a person starts projecting too much onto others.
“Self-worth” is a different thing than “attractiveness to men.” Unless you’re saying that fat women are worthless human beings. Which is probably what you mean to say, and probably what all the posters here think too.
All women and men have worth as a human being. Your weight isn’t indicative of your self-worth. It’s just my own preference that I’m not attracted to heavier people, just like some people may not like my body either.
I have an inverted triangle build with narrow hips, broad shoulders, and big boobs. This means, according to critics, that I am “not a real women.” Cool, I guess I’m a man. Or maybe I’m an android. Rick Santorum slams me because I don’t want to give birth – besides having no interest in children or motherhood, it would be painful and risky. Amanda Marcotte asserts I am giving women eating disorders. Both of them need better ways to occupy their time.
Some people will find something to pick on, and have. That’s their problem, not mine. I’ve come to realize that even when women have perfect hourglass shapes, people find something to pick apart, so I’ve quit worrying about it.
“I’ve come to realize that even when women have perfect hourglass shapes, people find something to pick apart, so I’ve quit worrying about it.”
Yep, I’ve seen women with hourglass figures post on forums only to have male posters say “You’re too thick. The ideal woman is supposed to be slim and toned.”
Can’t please everyone…too bad for them!
@ WW
Thats so warm and fuzzy gives me goosebumps. So whats the worth of a human being? Or whats worthy about a human being?
We all have it, what is it worth. My inclination would be that human beings aren’t really worth anything except what we are worth to one another.
PurpleSeekere
No. I am really trying to remind everyone here that we are essentionally all trolls on here. We are all the easily bored kind of people who really need to make a dent in the world every now and then to feel alive. And feeling alive is no small thing.
Whatever, but it apparently took like 20 hours and 75 plus lame, irellevant comments before someone noticed that my comment – bomb regarding “her actual self worth” was just a fooking joke.
Children; …”Self worth” cannot be translated into “actual self worth” without a massive dose injection of absurdity.
@rum
“No. I am really trying to remind everyone here that we are essentionally all trolls on here. We are all the easily bored kind of people who really need to make a dent in the world every now and then to feel alive. And feeling alive is no small thing.”
Wow, man, that’s some really heavy shit. I’m gonna have to ponder that for while.
@ Caroline
dead, poor or excessively tall.
Work for you?
@Lokland
I’ll take it. =)
I’m just not a huge fan of generalizations about body type. Beauty and health are both multivariate, and there are always outliers.
@ Frankie
Wow. Haha. Yup. Because I DEMAND model bodies to be able to date. Thats totally it. You hit me, spot on. My heart has been hit and is suddenly bleeding.
Ignore all my own writings on personality, on femininity, on personality. Forget about all the ways that I look for the woman to actually live up to the same EQUAL EXPECTATIONS she demands as a man. Obviously that I have opinions or expectations at all means I’m misogynistic and holding women down to the male, patriarchal ideal.
Never mind that its a woman whose expectations I have to meet that also needs to meet my own.
I obviously am a piece of trash that no decent woman should admire – not Susan, Charm, Sassy, Warm Woman. They should see me as the villian I am and banish me to the place where men working as janitors to provide for their families while supporting an ex wife are banished to.
Never mind the discussions of intellect I can start with Vox, Rollo, Dalrock, Jesus Mahony, Desi, Mega Man. Nope. Take away my testicles and serve them to the masses.
You sicken me. Your attacks on confidence and ideas are more deflective yet destructive then the majority of MRA’s. You have elevated yourself to the upper echelon of hatred.
I only wished it was a lonely place instead of the party it seems to be.
Keep taking things out of context. Keep branding us as hate machines. Keep banning us, vilifying us, keeep alienating us.
Keep us on the sidelines.
Keep us from your daughters, from your friends. Dear god keep us from yourselves.
See how that works for you. To instead of discriminating towards a minority that you don’t interact with to discriminate towards the people you want to marry.
We’ll surprise society with our determiniation. We’ll surprise you. But most of all…..
We’lll surprise ourselves.
I’d take the chubby Venus in the original paintings thank you very much. The problem is, the modern women who would quote that as an example of “curvy is beautiful” are inevitably way fatter and nowhere near as attractive.
Where I lose patience is with comments like the one upthread, where it was insinuated that women who don’t want kids are rich snobs rejecting motherhood out of vanity and narcissism while they slut it up all over town. My health issues and my total lack of interest in parenthood aren’t anyone’s business but mine, but are great reasons not to have kids. My choice is the best one, not only for me, but for society too (though I don’t much care what society has to say, given that many of its members loathe me anyway).
It gets tiresome to be accused of hijacking and ruining womanhood simply because we make different choices. The way critics like that talk, it’s as though childless women were personally snatching their babies, throwing out their high heeled-shoes and makeup collections, grinding their freshly baked cakes and washed linens into the dirt, and forcing them to work high-pressure corporate jobs at gunpoint.
Maybe some people take the view that life is supposed to consist of committing decades at a time to activities you intensely dislike, and being miserable as a result, maybe because it’s proper. Bully for them.
After thinking about it some more, I’ve come to the realization that women don’t like each other much. The harshest critics of other women’s appearances, jobs, children (or lack thereof), marriages, boyfriends, girlfriends, and pets are inevitably their “sisters,” those same “sisters” who sell ridiculous magazines and stupid talk shows that instruct women on what they’re expected to care about.
But the sisterhood was all a lie.
@Lindsay
Susan has never made a post about motherhood and other commenter had expressed the same desire you have with no repercussions. Why venting here?
I’m sorry to say this, but I do not believe that I can any longer participate in your blog.
I’ve come to decide that I agree. We have different reasons, I imagine. In my case, it’s that the discussion has reached its natural end for me. I got what I needed out of it, learned what I wanted, and it’s time to move on. I don’t want to argue with people, and I’m not here to change minds.
There have been some cool people. Susan was a gracious host. The straight world is very different from mine, and my challenges are different from yours. That’s how it goes. I’m proud of who I am, and hopefully, you all find your happiness too.
I’ll return to my world now. Thanks for the visit. Be well. Goodnight.
@Lindsay
you might be on to something
“Misogynist: A man who hates women as much as women hate one another.
H. L. Mencken
US editor (1880 – 1956)”
Stacy at 54,
What great insight you have.
Sure, it is a generalisation, but I believe your point is made perfectly.
You are a sensible one, if you don’t mind me saying so.
Love the game advice from Danny’s Paw-Paw. It’s 100% spot on.
Lindsay and Desiderius,
Sorry to see the both of you go. I liked reading what you had to say.
Stacy at 54: “upper-class women … prioritize careers and having “liberating experiences” over motherhood and femininity.”
The (sainted, by some) Camille Paglia said recently (IIRC) that the modern idealized female image, ie thin and toned, is the result of valuing efficiency over either beauty or fertility. I’m not quite positive what she meant, but Stacy’s comment above reminded me of that.
@95 purplesneakers
Did I touch a nerve? Sorry. The point I was so ineptly trying to make is that looks aren’t enough. She opened me that time after she dropped the weight. After we exhausted the “you didn’t recognize me” subject we were stuck.
Susan: I suggest a post on “The Art of Conversation”.
“There is no such thing as courage. There is only trained and untrained.”
I hit “Submit” too soon. (I don’t like that word.)
“The Art of Conversation with Men“.
Esau,
Paglia makes an interesting point, but I think that’s too simplistic a conclusion to draw. Two things contradict it, and they’re both boobs.
That’s not to say that I would completely discount the theory, only point out that there are other factors at play, such as a hyper-sexualized media. Maybe the boyish body with boobs look is a result of women trying to be all things in society.
First of all, she often went overboard in slimming the women.
Yep, I’ve seen women with hourglass figures post on forums only to have male posters say “You’re too thick. The ideal woman is supposed to be slim and toned.”
Roissy’s ideal women seem to range from anorexics on the thin side to fashion models on the thick side.
I love the “Goodbye Cruel HUS!” posts! They remind me of way back in the day when I used to post a lot on a certain college team forum – everybody kind of came to know each other (and in many cases dislike each other), and opinions would get heated – far more heated than the manosphere, believe it or not. Inevitably, you would see a “Goodbye Cruel XXX” type post, mostly directed at the moderators, and then the guy would be back in a week or two. lol
P.S. This isn’t directed at Linsday who doesn’t seem angry – just seems to have concluded she has gleaned what she can.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2111203/Seeing-man-upset-makes-women-happy–shows-relationship-strong.html
@BuckeyeBri
Sorry to be late in responding, I was on a weekend yoga retreat. Namaste. WGR was a typo, sorry. I meant WHR – waist to hip ratio.
The published measurements of Gisele are clearly faked. Here’s the proof (The woman on the right has a WHR of .7):
@Rum
Sorry I was not around to delete Frankie’s comment earlier. He’s obviously into shaming you gratiuitously – I’m sure you didn’t lose sleep over it.
@Desiderius
You will indeed be missed. Unfortunately, Olive got caught in the crossfire of a battle between myself and some foes of HUS, who sought to promote Olive’s views in the service of a deep-rooted antagonism, reflecting both distrust and loathing of women. It was ugly, stressful and painful for Olive, and I assure you for myself as well.
Being away for a weekend retreat really helped me to clarify my vision for the blog. No more negative energy. There’s been a malignancy here (not Olive) and HUS needs to heal from that. Olive is always welcome here, and her blog is also on my blogroll. I encourage you to check out her blog moving forward, she’s a thoughtful and intelligent writer.
@Esau
Did you catch Scott Adams’ essay on Men’s Rights a while back? He took it down pretty quickly after being attacked by feminists, but it was very interesting and a welcome addition to the debate while it lasted.
@Lindsay
Sadly, I agree. Intrasexual female competition will trump all but the closest bonds, and sometimes even those.
Lindsay & Susan,
Im sorry you both feel that way.
I have generally found most men and women are honourable and loyal to their friends.
Yeah, I could provide examples of very intra sexual male and female comptition leading to disloyal conduct but this is the exception rather than the rule.
And invariably alcohol was involved.
“Sadly, I agree. Intrasexual female competition will trump all but the closest bonds, and sometimes even those”
Are you saying that a women can’t trust other women unless there is the closest of bonds between them? And maybe not even then?
I’m surprised that some commenters feel this blog is biased toward women. With statements like this, it feels just the opposite.
@Maggie
I’ve written before about having had female bosses – every one was a nightmare. Why? Because to a woman in business, a female subordinate is a threat. I’ve seen best friends fall out again and again over a boy – not even a quality boy, but some douche. Two friends of mine have stopped returning my calls since I got mentioned in The Atlantic. I am not biased towards men or women. I tell it like I see it.
+1 with Susan. Here’s my motto in life
“If a man or a woman is not treating you with the proper respect, you think kiss my ass.” You don’t have to say it to their face, but your actions convey it.:P
I remember the post. Fortunately, my experience with female bosses was more positive. The only true mentor I had was a women boss .
This thread seems to have a lot of negativity re women. It’s jarring to see comments nit-picking on women’s bodies — women are too fat, too thin, hips too small, etc. I don’t see this over-analysis of men’s bodies.
It’s sad that “friends” have not retuned your calls. It must be jealousy or insecurity on their part. I think it would be cool to have a friend quoted like that.
Maggie,
We were actually discussing different male body types on a recent thread. We don’t discriminate when it comes to nit-picking.
@SW
“The 20s, as I mentioned in the post, glorified the boyish figure with no breasts or waistline. It certainly wasn’t men who drove that, it was something else – something happening in society. Post WWI, the era of Prohibition, the fact that women had thrown away their corsets? The 20s were also quite promiscuous – those boyish young girls were getting busy, and the men snapped them up.”
I’ve always found the 20s interesting from this perspective. It was probably the first big cultural shift in how men and women interacted. Regarding the flapper look, I kind of find it appealing because it is an old-fashioned style looking back on it. I recall reading that it was a natural outgrowth of the Gibson Girl look of the 1890s to 1910s. I wish I could upload a picture to show the similarities.
Women were joining the workforce and consumer culture was just beginning, which probably fueled the rapid changes in clothing style and beauty standards. However, 1/2 the population was still rural in the 1920s, so although the flapper look was seen as “popular”, it certainly didn’t represent the average woman. Maybe they were the first socially acceptable niche “bad girls”.
I know suffragettes didn’t particurly appreciate the image of women flappers were promoting (i.e. drinking alcohol, staying out all night, listening to jazz). While the period was a lot looser sexually, that’s not saying much given that young people were rebelling against super-strict Victorian tradition. Promiscuity in the 20s was probably a far cry from what we have today. I also recall reading that “petting parties” were popular amongst the urban crowd. Basically, people getting together and somebody’s place, drinking and dancing, and then making out. The girls usually put a stop to things before anything sexual actually happened. Sound like the early hookup scene? : )
Maggie,
“I’m surprised that some commenters feel this blog is biased toward women. With statements like this, it feels just the opposite.”
I wouldn’t read some of the other threads then- this is nothing!
I couldn’t agree more about the ludicrous ‘female boss’ accusation.
I have had outstanding and awful bosses of both genders.
I have also known guys and girls alike avoid romantic liaisons that may have upset their close friends- kinda like the Ross and Joey situation but they didn’t do what Joey & Rachel did (in Friends).
Its funny because normally Susan asserts that personal observation is redundant and only data is viable- haven’t seen her data on terrible female bosses though- but may have missed it I guess.
I daresay there will some data on general middle manager misconduct/indiscipline somewhere that could be filtered for gender.
In the meantime, as Susan appears to be allowing direct observation on this theme- I have found the most miscreant managers to be male.
They are sometimes too blunt and cannot change their mind when needed to, even when all around are advising them too (they perceive it as weakness)
They can sometimes take criticism very badly indeed and find it harder to multi task.
They often fine it very difficult in sensitive or complex situations with colleagues when emotional intelligence is required of the leader.
They are much more likely to be found guilty of gross misconduct like theft, disrepute or sexual harassment.
What I have just said is a massive generalisation of course- most male and female bosses I have known have been great – but if I had to say, gun to head, which were better managers/leaders on average then I think, by a smallish margin, women were.
As to who is best at holding grudges, I have known both genders hold grudges for decades- its most certainly not a female preserve.
And when I think back to when things got heated in the work place/office, how often has it been that guys have resorted to shouting and even minor violence but the women circle round and try and diffuse things.
I have known the occasional ultra sensitive woman who couldn’t get on with anyone but there is most certainly a male equivalent- its just he wears trousers- thats the difference.
Two friends of mine have stopped returning my calls since I got mentioned in The Atlantic. I am not biased towards men or women. I tell it like I see it.
To be fair my male boss once told me that I will know who was my real friend in the literary world once I won my first award. Funny enough all the backstabbers were males in that aspect they liked me as their secretary not as competition. Of course this is a cultural difference Latinas compete for looks no brains once the hottest one is established the things get some sort of stable. Also if there is a woman that is the queen and a new one appears things can get ugly. I think is good to recognize our catty tendencies in order to tame them. Being blind to it doesn’t help anyone.
Susan…”wo friends of mine have stopped returning my calls since I got mentioned in The Atlantic.”
Were they writers/aspiring writers?…or just broad-spectrum jealousy?
(Or, was there maybe something in the Atlantic article or on this blog that really offended them?)
Rum – well, I’m not trolling, but thanks for admitting you are! Haha.
Pinkney- Yeah, sorry, it did kind of hit a personal sore spot. But tbh I have trouble making conversation with people I don’t know that well, whether they’re men or women. People have thought that I was cold upon first meeting me, and later came to see that I’m not. Though I would also appreciate an “Art of Conversation with Men” post, though I suspect that it would be highly variable, depending on the man/type of man. For example, I find it wayy easier to talk to guys of different races from similar academic backgrounds than to talk to more ‘normal’ guys of my own race.
I also find it surprising when manosphere bloggers think this site is biased towards women. FWIW my boss is awesome, but she’s a super-old lesbian and we’re not in a high-stakes work environment. I will be shifting to one of those soon enough, and after reading all this stuff here I’m a little bit wary of gender politics in that kind of workplace. I just hate workplace politics in general. Now I have to pay attention to how I interact with men vs. women, too?!
What do man look for in wife? Extreme necessary she pull plow when tractor break down. Maybe I buy fancy Capitalist tractor one day instead of tractor from Grozny Factory #135, eh? Maybe then I only keep one wife. With piece-of-crap Grozny tractor break-down all times, need two wifes.
Pick two heavy women for wife. Heavy is good. Heavy is sign of reliability.
Actually, I was so offended by something else I was doing that I stopped and posted here. Maintain that balance in the Universe, you know.
Hey, Dogsquat… How’s life going?
Oof, this is child’s play.
You know, I highlighted Giordano’s work because as a woman I find the sociology and history of the female form very interesting. We’ve evolved to value fertility cues, i.e. beauty, yet the standards do shift quite perceptibly over time. It seems that they may be influenced by war, economic depression, and other anxieties. As someone who generally writes with a female audience in mind, I included the link because I recently heard several young women talking about it with some fascination. What was not mentioned – and was certainly not the goal of my posting it here – was to ask guys which they think is hotter. It really has nothing to do with men. So I was taken aback by guys viewing this as a “skinny shaming” post or some kind of marketing effort to get men to partner with obese women.
To be fair, the discussion went in a different direction with the participation of both sexes, and there was some shaming of muscular guys vs. skinny guys too.
And I’m guilty of participating by posting my favorite pic of Gisele Bundchen, ever.
@Megaman
Sounds like 6th grade. Seriously. Have you heard of rainbow parties? Those generally kick in by 7th or 8th.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_party_(sexuality)
Wikipedia claims they’re an urban myth, so they just may be plain old blowjob parties.
@david foster
They’re both aspiring writers. One is trying to get her first novel published and the other is submitting a lot of stories for publication. I get it, I do. I’m not angry with either one. I’m sure each of them would say, “I’ve been busy.” But it’s been five months and it feels like a real loss. One is a woman I met while acting in 1992. We wrote and performed a two-woman show together in 1995, and have been close ever since. I miss her. The other was more of an occasional lunch or walk friend – a former neighbor. Maybe it’s coincidence and I’m being paranoid, who knows. My point was, I don’t think guys do this. This kind of friendship drama is uniquely female.
OH, OH, OH, OH, OH. DOGSQUAT IS BACK.
Dogsquat, darling, we have missed you so much. Did you hear our cries of longing? Did you feel me worrying about you like a long lost child? How wonderful it is to see you alive and kicking – hilarious as ever. Welcome back, prodigal son.
“And I’m guilty of participating by posting my favorite pic of Gisele Bundchen, ever”
Actually, this is an important point. The pictures of Gisele, Victoria’s Secret models and lately the Sports Illustrated issue were plastered everywhere as the ulitmate standard for female beauty. These models admit to starving themselves before these shoots and because they are so thin their fake breasts implants look awful. Gisele’s breasts look like rectangles! And yet this is the standard of what women should look like. What an incredible amount of stress we put on young women today.
Hiya, Susan!
I just got busy. School and work and all the other goofy crap I do. Danny emailed me the other day, and I was shocked at how long it’s been since I read anything other than a textbook.
I missed it here, though. I spend a lot of time memorizing stuff, and less time actually thinking than I’d like. This is a good place for thinking, and I need to participate more.
Jesus, things are going so well that it’s making me a little nervous. Good grades, enough money, interesting work, and the best ol’ lady a guy could meet. I haven’t felt this good since Katie S. (French!) kissed me under the bleachers in 9th Grade. I am disgustingly happy.
No, seriously – I make me want to puke I’m so happy. The next step is for me to get a little smarmy about it.
I am, as we all are, a work in progress.
One thing about female body types I haven’t seen brought up on this thread:
Those runway model gals are going for a very specific look. Their whole job is to look good in photographs. That’s it. When you meet them in person, they look a little…off.
Put Ms. Bundchen in a bar next to a random NFL cheerleader. Then watch who Danny starts telling dirty jokes to first. That’s your answer.
Susan, funny thing, all my female bosses have been extremely good to me. The (few) problems I have had have been with male bosses. I suppose lady bosses are nicer to male minions than they are to female minions?
What an incredible amount of stress we put on young women today.
No sympathy. Zero.
“Two friends of mine have stopped returning my calls since I got mentioned in The Atlantic. ”
Maybe they were sluts or sex pos feminists, and the article inspired them to visit your site. Or maybe they just read one of Doug1′s comments.
BTW, this is from a Caitlyn Flanagan article, and from memory at that so I may have it all wrong, but as I recall, she wrote a long piece (in the Atlantic) in which she described how she became aware of this supposed BJ epidemic among Jr. High girls and was all shocked. She looked into it and found it to be overblown. (Heh.)
Anyway, the rainbow party was apparently concocted by an author of “young adult” fiction and Flanagan could not find a single instance of anything like it ever having happened anywhere. At least not reported.
That said, surveys do show much higher rates of oral sex at younger ages than in past eras.
DogSquat – Holy crap man! Long time no see!
I’m glad things are going well for you, and glad you are back even if it is only on occasion. I was beginning to feel like on outcast of the outliers. Even Jesus M seems to think I’m partially full of shit these days, but to be honest that isn’t anything new for me.
Personally, I don’t even think runway models look good in photographs. But then again, I rarely ever see a real “designer’ dress that I find attractive anyway. I don’t know who they design those dresses for, but it isn’t for men to get turned on by.
I don’t mean this in a shame-y way, but it’s not just “gay men and fashion editors” that prefer thin women. I can buy that guys don’t like the high fashion catwalk models, but IME they’re very into the Victoria’s Secret body type.
Just look at which girls are getting the “high status” males. Or ask any guy to name his ultimate celebrity crush, and at least 90% of the time it will be somebody with a BMI below 20.
It’s not like most guys actually expect their girl to look like a Playboy Bunny (any more than any reasonable girl expects her guy to look like a Calvin Klein model), but that’s still definitely the “ideal”.
Love it or hate it, thin is in.
Dogsquat,
That’s awesome, bro. Nice update. Hope things continue to soar.
Ted,
I don’t think you’re full of shit–even partially…
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