Which Comes First – Promiscuous or Crazy?

March 13, 2012

New Gawker personality Anonymous Therapist is male, a father, and a therapist of many years who primarily treats teens and couples. He responds to questions about his practice, sharing the insights he’s gleaned and also some pretty outrageous stories. I was especially intrigued by his views on sexual promiscuity. (H/T: Stuart Schneiderman)

Gawker: Do you find that females who “experiment” are prone to self-destruction?

Anonymous Therapist: A resounding yes. Forget about the spoon-fed knowledge that promiscuity and experimentation lead to a higher risk of sexual assault, STDs, and unplanned children. Women that experiment—both heterosexually and homosexually—have, in my experience, faced higher levels of guilt and a lack of identity as their lives begin to settle down. Understand that this is a chicken-or-egg scenario, because sexual promiscuity in women in is one of the three major symptoms of internal anger and self-hatred, along with substance abuse and self-mutilation.

SW: Anonymous Therapist doesn’t specify a particular number of partners, but zeroes in on the motives for having casual sex as indicative of poor mental health. Here correlation, with or without causation, suggests that slutty behavior is a package deal, born of a desire to harm or punish oneself.

Gawker: That seems harsh. How so?

AT: I had a female patient once. She was very attractive, had three kids and was married to a prominent figure around town. She admitted to me that as a teen, she was extremely sexually active due to some feelings of unattractiveness and abandonment. Once she had kids, she felt guilty that her kids would one day—and I’m quoting here—”realize that they were birthed from a ‘whore,'” and that there was no special physical connection between her and her husband because he was like, the 70th man she’d been with. She felt unworthy of her social prominence because no one knew who she truly was. Since she could not separate from her past and never truly dealt with the core issues of her inadequacies, she began to self-destruct with substances, a spending addiction, and oftentimes engaging in communications that would jeopardize her husband’s career.

  • Self-destruction stems from guilt or a sense of unworthiness, and if you are not punished by someone else then, in your mind, you must punish yourself. 
  • Experimentation is also socially driven: It is now commendable in our society to be promiscuous. 
  • For both men and women, any type of promiscuity or experimentation, what you feel at the time is not always how you will feel about it later. 

In my opinion, any type of promiscuity or “phase” is fulfilling some type of need or emptiness inside that person at that specific time. Later on, that need may be fulfilled, but the behavior has occurred and the person may not be able to intellectualize the rationale or forgive themselves for fulfilling that need in that venue.

SW: Interestingly, AT begins by speaking about female promiscuity, but ends by generalizing that promiscuous behavior for both sexes comes from a place of inadequacy rather than emotional health.

What AT doesn’t address is the role of peer pressure, culture, and pluralistic ignorance on college campuses. Recently the Harvard Crimson interviewed Lisa Wade, Ph.D., a Sociology professor at Occidental College who studies the role of sex, sexuality, and gender in society. Wade dishes out a lot of feminist blather about “teh patriarchy” but at least she’s honest about what’s going on in hookup culture:

Crimson: What role do you think that television and the media’s very casual attitude toward sex has played in shaping society’s views on sex?

LW: It certainly contributes to the pluralistic ignorance and the idea that college is going to be constant sex with attractive people and that that’s how you have fun in college. We get the idea that someone who is cool and interesting and exciting is someone who is doing it and doing it with whoever, whenever, however…. The media seems to be saying that students who don’t participate are just irrelevant and off the social map altogether, and that’s a pretty harsh punishment to someone who objects to what’s going on or wishes it were different.

…What the sexual revolution of the 1960s and 1970s gave us is the opportunity to say “yes” to sex. But what it didn’t give us was the opportunity to say “no.” So students feel comfortable saying “yes” to sex, but they also feel like it’s increasingly difficult to say “no.” They feel like they should lose their virginity and have casual sex, and they feel bad about wanting to say “no.”

…When students arrive on campus their first year, they are very excited about what they think is going to be lots and lots of sex and lots and lots of fun. They often start getting disappointed right away and find themselves getting disappointed with so little pleasure and feelings of empowerment. But they don’t feel like they can change the way it is. The majority of students hook up now and then, but they have mixed feelings about what’s going on—they’re excited about the opportunity to be sexual but they’re also frustrated. Over the four years of college, students spend less and less time hooking up.

Clearly, there’s more going on here than self-hatred, though it seems reasonable to assume that the disappointment and frustration students feel after hooking up might create or exacerbate those feelings.  One young woman told me that when she got very depressed about the hookup scene and her role in it at her small, private college she went to see a school counselor, who reported that most of the requests for counseling related directly to the hookup scene and kids’ struggles to find their place within it or outside it.

There was one other remark from Anonymous Therapist that I know will interest you:

Gawker: So do you think couples should reveal how many people they’ve had sex with in order to alleviate guilt?

Absolutely not! Once you know that number, you begin to dwell on it and then the mind begins to go places it shouldn’t go and then start to rationalize and over-think the numbers—i.e., how many were one-night stands? How often were feelings shared? Does that make it better or worse? And so on. It’s just a useless piece of information that tends to eventually, more often than not, impact the relationship either on a conscious or subconscious level. So keep it to yourself.

SW: It’s an interesting observation. If one’s number of past sexual partners predicts future behavior, and there’s some reason to think that it does, then it’s important information. Yet it does not come without a price, as it may require forgiveness or compromise very early in a relationship. It may also prevent the heartache of being cheated on or dumped later. There’s no way to know up front. As long as sexual behavior remains unrestrained by societal norms, the “number” is going to be an important point of discussion.
 
P.S. Speaking of fidelity, Vox Day is gathering some stats in a Fidelity Survey at Alpha Game.  He’s already got over 150 responses, but a really large sample will provide better data. He’s interested in both male and female takers, so check it out HERE
  • Jesus Mahoney

    Great post. I haven’t seen Jess, Tom, and Abbot in one thread for a while. This should be fun.

  • Ramble

    Once you know that number, you begin to dwell on it and then the mind begins to go places it shouldn’t go and then start to rationalize and over-think the numbers—i.e., how many were one-night stands?

    It sounds as if, in his head, he was already responding to: Should you share your number if it is high?

    I doubt there are many guys who would dwell on it if her number was something like, 2.

    Also, I would love to know his thoughts on girls, or guys, who “had there fun” in college (or whatever) and then settled down afterwards.

  • Ted D

    I agree that the number can cause all kinds of mental issues, but I insist on getting it out in the open pretty early on. And that is a requirement from my blue pill days. I’ve added several others to my list since taking the red pill, but the number is still one of them.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “Don’t tell…” and hope to hell the guy doesn’t find out.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    ““Don’t tell…” and hope to hell the guy doesn’t find out”

    The rub there is, if she was very promiscuous, it probably WILL come out. The only way to avoid that is to move away from where you hit the casual market and start fresh somewhere. If man really wants to know, he will make judgments based on whatever info he can find. Most of which will come from her friends and family, without them even realizing it. And as much as actually knowing her number may suck, the unknown would be worse for me. Lots of “tells” pointing to a promiscuous past without a definitive tally would drive me nuts.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Once you know that number, you begin to dwell on it and then the mind begins to go places it shouldn’t go and then start to rationalize and over-think the numbers—i.e., how many were one-night stands? How often were feelings shared? Does that make it better or worse? And so on.

    Thing is, *these* are the questions the guy really wants answered when he wants to know the number. It’s not a matter of who’s got one over on whom.

    Idk. In a way, I feel like you should judge the person for whom they are now. I mean, unless you’re buying a home in the neighborhood where the woman slept around. Yet, it’s obviously a significant part of a person’s history. And if the person doesn’t think it is, then… that might be worse.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Lots of “tells” pointing to a promiscuous past without a definitive tally would drive me nuts.

    At that point, you just walk away. No point driving yourself nuts.

  • Passer_By

    “In my opinion, any type of promiscuity or “phase” is fulfilling some type of need or emptiness inside that person at that specific time. ”

    The same could be said for eating dinner, no?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The same could be said for eating dinner, no?

    Sure. Do you want to marry a woman who pops a different man into her oven every evening?

  • Passer_By

    @Mahoney Smarty Pants

    No, but my point is that his statement doesn’t really say anything. We do lots of things to “fulfill some type of need”, including a need to fuck, the need to sleep or the need to get a breath of fresh air. It’s a meaningless statement.

    Or, maybe you were just making a funny, in which case, shame on me for taking it seriously.

  • Wudang

    I`ll agree that there often can be a link between self destructiveness and promosicuity, especially in women, but I have known too many women who have had fairly high numbers who show zero signs of mental health issues in any other areas of their lives to by it being the general rule.

    I also agree with him that such issues can be fixed in many cases and that that can eliminate the future likelyhood of similar behavior. What still would remain though would be past alpha experiences and all that sort of stuff.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yea, I was just kidding. Though I do think there’s a difference. I think he means fulfill some type of need other than a simple desire for sex. I mean aside from Sassy, I’ve never once heard of a woman claiming she just needed to get laid–

    Wait, not true. Once, but not the type to bring home to mom.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    What still would remain though would be past alpha experiences and all that sort of stuff.

    That kind of thing would be the least of my worries.

  • jamie

    @JM “I mean aside from Sassy, I’ve never once heard of a woman claiming she just needed to get laid–”

    I’ve never felt the need to chime in, but I completely identify with Sassy’s predicament. I need to get laid right not just because my jeans are too tight. I don’t like to say anything because people can be so judgmental and besides, it’s not really anybody’s business. I can take care of it myself. I took care of it twice last night. This is my life. You can go ahead and feel sorry for me now.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    jamie,

    But that’s what I mean. Everybody gets horny, but we can take take of it. Most people can “take care of it” on their own. And sorry, I spent years masturbating before I ever even saw a real woman naked, so you’ve got like *zero* sympathy from me.

    :P

  • Jesus Mahoney

    *take take of it. lol. That’s me being greedy.

  • jamie

    @JM

    It’s not the same as the real thing. I’m sure Sassy takes care of hers, but try asking which she’d rather have. I’m sure “being in love” is not an essential prerequisite for her either.

  • Dogsquat

    I think this:

    “For both men and women, any type of promiscuity or experimentation, what you feel at the time is not always how you will feel about it later. ”

    is the most important statement in the article, but it’s easily overlooked.

    To make this prediction accurately you must understand why you feel the way you do now. People rarely bother to do any sort of meaningful self-examination. Worse, self-examination is easily confused with self-justification or infected by fantasy.

    Getting objective – being ruthlessly clinical – about oneself, is the only way I’ve found to stop repeating mistakes. It’s useful in all areas of life, not just relationships.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat

      To make this prediction accurately you must understand why you feel the way you do now. People rarely bother to do any sort of meaningful self-examination. Worse, self-examination is easily confused with self-justification or infected by fantasy.

      It’s also severely hampered by alcohol consumption. People drink with the specific goal of rendering themselves incapable of self-examination or discipline in the moment of temptation. Obviously, they go headlong into the mistake with full knowledge that it’s unlikely to turn out well long-term, suppressing their reluctance to get naked with a stranger.

  • Escoffier

    “I mean aside from Sassy, I’ve never once heard of a woman claiming she just needed to get laid–”

    I hear it occasionally in movies and on TV but in real life? Drawing a blank.

  • Dogsquat

    Hi, Jamie!

    I’m with you on the need vs. want thing, Jesus. I’ve gone a whole year without even seeing a woman who spoke the same languages I do. Wasn’t fun, but I didn’t die from it.

    Had to shave my palms twice a day, though.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    jamie,

    Of course it’s not the same. But I don’t think Sassy’s gone the whole casual route.

    Dogsqaut

    +1. Fact of life for most men. Though most don’t do it in a desert in the Middle East with a rifle in their hand.

  • Dogsquat

    Escoffier, I was reading one of the other threads recently wherein you discussed weightlifting.

    If you haven’t done so, you may wish to consider learning a practical martial art.

    I teach a little Krav Maga here and there. My classes are usually a little over an hour long. The first part is strength and conditioning geared towards surviving violent conflict. Middle part we work on specific skills. Last part we develop reflexes. Mindset is discussed throughout.

    A good Krav class is a kick ass workout. If you’re not getting what you want from the weights, give it a shot.

  • jamie

    @JM

    There is a lot of wiggle room between being in love with your partner and having a casual sexual encounter.

    For instance, a girl might date a guy for a few weeks, realize that there isn’t any long term potential but have sex with him anyway because he’s good looking and nice and usually orders pizza. It’s not ideal, but it’s better than nothing.

    (I know you probably won’t believe me but plenty of girls operate from that beta-boy-scarcity mentality. Until very recently, I had no idea that I could have sex with nearly any guy I wanted if I just asked. I thought I had to work for it. Seriously. You learn new things every day.)

  • jamie

    Hi Dogsquat. We missed you.

  • Dogsquat

    That is true, Jesus.

    Little known fact:

    Infantrymen are adventurous and expert masturbaters.

    Think of that the next time a recruiting commercial comes on. Changes the tone of things, kinda.

  • Escoffier

    I am doing krav, actually.

    And, isn’t this just hilarious, I learned yesterday that I have torn my left ACL. Haha, joke’s on me. Skinny-fat, wealking, inert, pot-bellied wino: no injuries. Weights, swimming, krav, planks, “self-improvement” galore: fucked-up left knee.

    I’m not bitter I swear.

    Started PT today and may–may–have to have surgery.

    Goddamnit.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    jamie,

    To each her own. I find most women around my age can afford a pizza on their own.

  • jamie

    @JM

    I’m not really there for the pizza.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jamie,

    Obviously.

  • purplesneakers

    Personal anecdote of my more promiscuous female friends- some of them had incredibly messed up childhoods. Nearly all of them grew up without dads. I’m sure there are stable girls who get burned by supreme alpha males and then become more risk-seeking as a result (especially the way our culture promotes this pattern and feminists keep on insisting that there’s nothing wrong with hook-up culture), but in my experience, more promiscuous women are already somewhat emotionally unstable to begin with. I’ve had conversations with friends who are trying to understand why they act the way they do or why they’re attracted to the guys they like, and they basically describe classic male-validation-seeking behavior.

    “I mean aside from Sassy, I’ve never once heard of a woman claiming she just needed to get laid–”

    I hear it occasionally in movies and on TV but in real life? Drawing a blank.

    My female friends and I joke around about it, especially when wanting to lose our v-cards. However, I doubt that it’s the same kind of physical need that it is for the average guy. I do have some female friends who have talked about “just wanting to get fucked” after a week of classes/work. The only time I think I’ve felt like this was once last year when I was physically aroused almost non-stop for a week and couldn’t think about anything but sex. I think about sex a lot, but it’s never been as physical as that time.

  • jess

    Mr Mahoney,
    Oh dont worry I still pop in from time to time- I’m just quite busy at the moment- but i have posted a couple of comments this week.

    This new thread is similar to many previous ones and my comments are there as a rebuttal.

    My arguments and stances are as before – I suppose I would echo Wudangs post 11 to some degree.

    Very promiscuous behaviour is likely linked to mental issues but there is research suggesting higher count people have higher self esteem than lower count people.

    Anyhoooo, some of the opening quotes from the article are hilariously awful and are not really worth bothering with.

    they dont apply to most young people in our modern culture and it doesnt need me to point the ‘bleedin’ obvious to any lurkers out there.

    so pray continue gentlemen…

  • Dogsquat

    Jamie said:

    “For instance, a girl might date a guy for a few weeks, realize that there isn’t any long term potential but have sex with him anyway because he’s good looking and nice and usually orders pizza. It’s not ideal, but it’s better than nothing.”
    ______________

    Depends.

    What kind of pizza?

  • jamie

    @Dogsquat

    Very good pizza from a local restaurant. Sometimes there is a 2 hour wait for deliveries on weekends.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I’m with you on the need vs. want thing, Jesus. I’ve gone a whole year without even seeing a woman who spoke the same languages I do. Wasn’t fun, but I didn’t die from it.

    Totally once upon a time I used to masturbate seven to eight times a day. Lucky for me my horniness comes in waves so it was usually six months of sexual obsession in which I had to get off and use porn to alleviate followed by bliss of lack of interest on it, wash and repeat. Now that I’m getting laid regularly is not as bad but I do remember being driven a bit on the crazy side when my husband used to left me for a while and my best friends turns into a real bitch if her hubby is traveling over a week in fact it was a joke at the office of not sending him away from more than a week or the wife will break hell at the office. So yeah sorry no one dies for lack of sex.

    Personal anecdote of my more promiscuous female friends- some of them had incredibly messed up childhoods.

    The slut explosion in my country started like that when there was one or two sluts that moved to start over and quit their slut days or just remained as secondary mistresses but that try to raise their kids to be better, things were under control but then sluts became whatever we have birth control pills and feminists say that men are women should have all the sex with want is their human right! and they breed new sluts that take their place like rabbits and things went to hell really fast.

  • Charm

    You have no idea how happy I am that he mentioned both men AND women. I dont care, when, where or why someone had a “promiscuous phase” I’d still rather not date them when they get over it. Like someone mentioned above people usually dont take the time to reflect on why they engage in certain behaviors. It shows that you dont consider how you actions will impact your future. Plus I think chalking it up to a phase is somehow trying to displace responsibility. People need to learn to own their shit.

    Now this is not to say that people cant change but the reality of the situation is that there is always someone else that can replace you. I think this is why people withhold the number because they know that most people dont engage in the behavior so most men an women can just fin someone else.

    For me though its simply a preference. Just like body type, personality type, whether or not the person smokes, drinks or does drug etc. If people are entitled to have preferences in all those categories why is sexual history off the table? I personally think its just a shaming tactic designed for those who sleep around. Just like fat women will continue to hide behind the obesity epidemic in the US as a rationalization for their laziness.

    I mean I have mutiple tattoos that a fair portion of men might not like. I dont plan on concealing them, or chalking them up to a “phase”. If a man does not like ink on a woman you wont see me kicking up dust over. I knew the ramifications o tattoos when I did it.

  • Sassy6519

    Yea, I was just kidding. Though I do think there’s a difference. I think he means fulfill some type of need other than a simple desire for sex. I mean aside from Sassy, I’ve never once heard of a woman claiming she just needed to get laid–

    I think it just depends on any specific woman’s libido. Mine is off the charts. I have talked about willingly keeping myself indoors before to not tempt myself with random male strangers. It’s not fun at all. I feel like I’ve chained the beast within me to a wall. Eventually, it’s going to break free and wreak havoc on my poor town. That’s why I prefer to be in relationships. I get the steady supply of sex that I need to not want to claw my own face off.

    It’s not the same as the real thing. I’m sure Sassy takes care of hers, but try asking which she’d rather have. I’m sure “being in love” is not an essential prerequisite for her either.

    It’s definitely not the same. Half of the enjoyment of sexual intimacy, for me, is kissing. I love making out for hours on end. No amount of taking care of myself will ever supplement that.

    Of course it’s not the same. But I don’t think Sassy’s gone the whole casual route.

    It depends on how you define the casual route. I don’t randomly sleep with guys, but I do participate in random make out sessions with guys I meet. It satiates my hunger enough so that I don’t do things that are much more drastic or regrettable.

  • WarmWoman

    When I first joined HUS, some of the men on here were telling me “You have to tell him about your past” as if it was some kind of law. ;) Here’s how I see it. If he doesn’t ask, he obviously doesn’t want to know and finds it irrelevant. If he asks, I will word it “I did some things sexually that I wasn’t proud of, because of childhood conditioning.” If he keeps pressing for more information, then I would have to go into more detail. This situation hasn’t happened in my life yet.

    ““I mean aside from Sassy, I’ve never once heard of a woman claiming she just needed to get laid–””

    You met another one. Ever since my self-esteem and view on intimacy has improved, I just can’t fathom going back to meaningless sex to alleviate urges.

    I definitely think “craziness” comes before promiscuity. You don’t just wake up one day and decide to sleep around. Something happened there to trigger it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Warm Woman

      There’s another option re the question about one’s number. You can simply decline to share that information. I’ve known women to say it’s not the other person’s business, and they’ve been willing to live with the consequences of that. And IIRC they didn’t have particularly high numbers (single digits).

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I don’t randomly sleep with guys, but I do participate in random make out sessions with guys I meet. It satiates my hunger enough so that I don’t do things that are much more drastic or regrettable.

    Like I said, to each her own. Everyone’s got their lines.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    You met another one. Ever since my self-esteem and view on intimacy has improved, I just can’t fathom going back to meaningless sex to alleviate urges.

    +1… Though I suppose it’s easy to say when you’re in a relationship.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy

    “I don’t randomly sleep with guys, but I do participate in random make out sessions with guys I meet. It satiates my hunger enough . . .”

    Really? I would think this would leave you with the female equivalent of blue balls. Blue Clit?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Really? I would think this would leave you with the female equivalent of blue balls. Blue Clit?

      That’s what I thought. Making out would have me so primed I would be extremely tempted to keep going. I’ve always viewed making out as something that happens on the way to sex. Random makeout sessions with strangers just wouldn’t appeal to me. It’s like using a stranger’s toothbrush.

  • WarmWoman

    I’m glad this post came out anyway, because I have been contemplating whether a very promiscuous friend/co-worker is a healthy friend or not. She has been helpful, but she has also snapped at me, made rude and blunt comments out of nowhere, and most likely does have poor self-esteem. Given where I am right now, that’s not the company I want to get close to.

    I agree with Charm that promiscuous men tend to have issues too.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Passer_By

    Really? I would think this would leave you with the female equivalent of blue balls. Blue Clit?

    It’s weird, but I usually do feel satisfied after only kissing someone. It’s fairly easy for me to put a stop to things before they get too out of hand, so I do. Something is better than nothing, in my opinion. I’d rather not rack up a huge body count, so I do my best to keep myself under control. We’ll see how well that continues to go.

  • Ramble

    WarmWoman

    If he doesn’t ask, he obviously doesn’t want to know and finds it irrelevant.

    Or, every part of pop culture and polite society says that a man shouldn’t care, so he doesn’t ask.

  • Charm

    @ramble

    Yes, he’s insecure and less of a man If he cares. Many men dont want to rock the boat. Id love to see a anonymous survey of how men in the 21st century actually feel about it. People can call it what they want, but I still aimt havin’ it. But I have very strong opinions about everything which makes me judgemental so….

  • WarmWoman

    @Ramble

    Maybe! I wonder if men really do wonder if their girl has “been around” by her performance in bed.

    @Sassy-I can also feel satisfied by passionate kissing.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy

    “It’s weird, but I usually do feel satisfied after only kissing someone.”

    Interesting. That alone satisfies you? Or your satisfied by that combined with running straight home and fiddling the bean?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Passer_By

    Hahaha!! The phrase “fiddling the bean” cracks me up.

    Anyway, I typically don’t run home to take care of business afterwards. For some reason, kissing is enough. The point of no return, for me, seems to be if a guy manages to get my pants off. Once the pants come off, it’s all downhill from there. Luckily, those instances have been few and far between. I’m typically very aware of whether or not I want to agree to take them off. My pants seem to be my mental chastity belt.

  • SayWhaat

    @Sassy-I can also feel satisfied by passionate kissing.

    Ditto. I can see how men would get frustrated by that though, hahaha.

  • SayWhaat

    Side note: I must say that after getting railed on in reddit for daring to explain why the “sexual double-standard” has biological roots, HUS is quite a welcome respite. :P

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Side note: I must say that after getting railed on in reddit for daring to explain why the “sexual double-standard” has biological roots, HUS is quite a welcome respite.

    Did you felt particularly masochist that day? God knows I purposely don’t talk about this in polite presence let alone the Interne.

  • WarmWoman

    “Ditto. I can see how men would get frustrated by that though, hahaha”

    I’ve heard men ask “What’s the point of sex if you don’t orgasm?” I can still find sex without an orgasm satisfying too.

  • SayWhaat

    Did you felt particularly masochist that day? God knows I purposely don’t talk about this in polite presence let alone the Interne.

    Eh. I made a mistake by leaving what I thought was a neutral comment. Whatevs, won’t do that again, lol.

  • SayWhaat

    I’ve heard men ask “What’s the point of sex if you don’t orgasm?” I can still find sex without an orgasm satisfying too.

    Just another difference between the sexes, I suppose.

  • SayWhaat

    I doubt there are many guys who would dwell on it if her number was something like, 2.

    Question for the guys.

    I think we’ve touched on this before but I’d like more clarification. We know that a woman’s sexual history is obviously threatening to a man, but what of her romantic history? If she has only had one or two lovers in her life, would you feel threatened that she may have never gotten over her ex (particularly in the Facebook age), and would that affect your decision to LTR?

  • sweetsue

    Not sure there is concurrence on the experimentation is due to a psychological problem. It could be a mere matter of curiosity. The problem is there is not enough contextual information to accurately assess the validity of that statement.

  • Lokland

    @Saywhaat

    No

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I agree with Charm that promiscuous men tend to have issues too.

    Yea, I’d say that’s true.

  • Dogsquat

    Ahh, Escoffier, I should have known. You’re a smart dude.

    Good luck with the knee. PT is usually best, but we’ve gotten pretty good at knee surgery. It’s much less common to here patients complain about past knee surgeries than, say, shoulder or spine work.

    One more piece of unsolicited advice (okay, two), if I may:

    Don’t be afraid to get two or more opinions on it. Lots of patients don’t realize they can do this, or they worry about offending the doc. Fuck that. There’s A TON of variation in how orthopedic issues are managed. Different docs have different skill, training, and experience. Even if you a pay a couple hundred bucks out of pocket for an eval, it’s worth it. You’d go to 5 car lots before you bought a car, and your body is much more important.

    Also, do your PT religiously – especially after surgery. Almost every patient I talk to that complains of “botched surgery” and “crappy doctors” failed to complete PT. Good PT is almost as importand as a good surgeon.

  • Dogsquat

    Warm woman said:

    “When I first joined HUS, some of the men on here were telling me “You have to tell him about your past” as if it was some kind of law. ;) Here’s how I see it. If he doesn’t ask, he obviously doesn’t want to know and finds it irrelevant.”

    A smart, perceptive guy who is in to you will notice you lying. I dislike being lied to, even if it’s to “protect my feelings”. It’s not protecting my feelings – it’s concealing information I need to accurately evaluate my situation. In addition, I start wondering what else has been lied about.

    A good strategy for women with “a past” is to deflect the question in a classy way. Don’t provide information that isn’t health or finance (kids/child support etc.) related. There is risk is that, though. You’ll be judged based on other cues the guy picks up. Sometimes that’s not accurate.

    The benefit to classy avoidance is that it gives you gals a shot to show how awesome you can be.

    For example, I am extremely unnatracted to promiscuity. It’s a deal breaker for me. I’m a lot less tolerant of it than many dudes, but there’s still some gray area. Now, a super attractive billionaire who owns a chain of liquor stores and convulses with pleasure at the thought of cooking for me – well, she’s getting a lot more leeway than most.

    Understand that the leeway is destroyed for a lot of guys if the billionaire gal comes right out and says,”I’ve banged 6 of your friends and 40 people a year since I was 12,” or something.

    Less history, more mystery. Give the guy a little room for his hamster to run.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    If she has only had one or two lovers in her life, would you feel threatened that she may have never gotten over her ex (particularly in the Facebook age), and would that affect your decision to LTR?

    Not if I had a good idea of how she felt about me. And if I didn’t have a good idea, I wouldn’t be in a relationship.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com The Private Man

    And in other news, male HUS lurkers all collectively commit the sin of onanism.

  • Escoffier

    Dog, thanks. Yeah, no way I will face the knife without at least one more evaluation and maybe two.

    I just started (pre-surgery) PT today and I intend to be very dedicated. I’ve been quite good about sticking to the swimming, the weights, the planks, the krav, everything really, and I am a naturally lazy person so this is something of a change for me but anyway I will be good about the PT because I know how important it is.

    I really want to avoid the knife if possible the only way I will do it is if 2+ docs say, If you don’t do this now you will have big trouble later on. Because honestly, it doesn’t even hurt now, it just feels unsteady.

    Both the doc and the PT did say, for the time being, no squats and no deads so I am laying off those. Leg curls are encouraged but not extensions. Krav, my doctor wants me not to do. I have to find a way around that. I really don’t want to give it up.

  • Dogsquat

    @ SayWhaat

    I’d say the answer to that depends on the guy’s individual experience.

    When I was much younger, I declined a relationship with a girl who was still in love with a guy who’d unfortunately died while they were together. I didn’t want to “compete” with an idealized dead guy. I also steered clear of newly broken-up with women.

    Now that I’ve been around a little longer, I’d be more likely to give those gals a shot. I now know that the jilted, pining girl doesn’t actually want to feel that way. Ideally, she wants to love someone that loves her back.

    There are obviously many, many other factors to consider, but Present Day Dogsquat wouldn’t always consider that a dealbreaker.

    Young Hardcharging Dogsquat would run like hell.

  • Ted D

    Say what -“If she has only had one or two lovers in her life, would you feel threatened that she may have never gotten over her ex (particularly in the Facebook age), and would that affect your decision to LTR?”

    No.

  • Ted D

    Doh. Stupid iPad fixed Saywhaat to say what. My bad…

  • Passer_By

    @Say what

    “If she has only had one or two lovers in her life, would you feel threatened that she may have never gotten over her ex (particularly in the Facebook age), and would that affect your decision to LTR?”

    In the abstract? No, not if she was into me sexually and all that. If she called his name out during sex and constantly compared me (unfavorably) to him? Well, yeah. lol

  • J

    Esco–Sorry to hear about your ACL. I once tore my meniscus and averted surgery with PT. I swear by it It can work miracles if you do what your supposed to. Even if you end up having surgery, do youR post-op PT. It’s amazing.

    Good luck with this!

  • Dinkney Pawson

    And in other news, male HUS lurkers all collectively commit the sin of onanism.

    One would rather hope it is/was individually.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      One would rather hope it is/was individually.

      Thanks, that’s my first big laugh of the day!

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Charm
    “Yes, he’s insecure and less of a man If he cares. Many men dont want to rock the boat. Id love to see a anonymous survey of how men in the 21st century actually feel about it. People can call it what they want, but I still aimt havin’ it. But I have very strong opinions about everything which makes me judgemental so….”

    Wait. So you’re all about women screening for men’s numbers, as you say you do, but then you resort to shaming language that us men are ‘insecure and less of a man’ if we care about numbers?

    Or are you saying that most men don’t want to go against the social stigma of such shaming language they’re usually submitted to, even though they should be asking these questions, because they don’t want to rock the boat?

  • sweetsue

    “I mean aside from Sassy, I’ve never once heard of a woman claiming she just needed to get laid–”I do have some female friends who have talked about “just wanting to get fucked” after a week of classes/work.

    Interesting. Based on conversations with friends, who shall remain nameless – Vegas Rules and all :) invariably when women does say this – it is not as simple as it appears and should not necessarily be taken at face value. There is a subtext and a context.

    As the convo continues – what is being sought is yes a physical connection and a release; but it is being done for comfort to feel better, forget about the day the problem their responsibilities and just be connect person to person at least for “awhile” and feel emotionally secure and safe.

    For example guy friends have made the same statement – folks like to talk to me :) and in this instance they say they just want a physical release a workout alternative – stress relief and physically pleasant sensations.

    My advice to women friends is if you are going to indulge and scratch that itch with someone be honest with yourself about what you really want and with the other person as to your expectations, own your $%&#. If the expectations are not synched – buy a battery operated buddy and a stuffed animal and indulge in a long hot bath and a glass of whatever liquid refreshment you choose. Sex won’t change his mind and if it is not what you really won’t it make you happy. Don’t mistake feeding a hunger (fast food) with having an satisfying experience that satisfies the senses (Le Bec Fin) .

    My advice to guy friends is to explain that the context matters and there is always a subtext; so know what you want; convey it up front so there are no misunderstandings or hurt feelings later, unless the other person is not honest with themselves. It takes confidence to state what you want upfront and straight forward. That is attractive which could trigger an attraction response on her part -so make sure to be clear that what she says is what she means. Restate what your are told to make sure you are on the same page and proceed with caution. Say what you mean and mean what you say and walk the talk.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ SayWhaat on a couple partners

    I’d avoid them as a committed LTR if they show signs of still being hung up on the ex. Usually because I’ve seen women do that and then flake out after a week or two of using a new guy to get over the old. I wouldn’t mind enjoying those two weeks, but I wouldn’t change my life around her or anything.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Heh. I’ve heard many girls say they just need to get laid and mean it before they even had a single drink. All promiscuous women of theatre. One of the many reasons I stopped dating theatre women.

  • J

    “You have to tell him about your past” as if it was some kind of law. . This situation hasn’t happened in my life yet. ,/I>

    I have never had a man ask me for a number, my DH included. I would probably dump a man who asked, mostly because I feel that asking is a sign that even a low number would be too many and that answering the question would only lead to more questions that there were no good answers to.

  • Passer_By

    @Leap of Beta

    I had to read it twice two, but she was amplifying Ramble’s point that pop culture and society brainwash guys into fearing they will be viewed as less of a man if they care about such things.

  • Charm

    @saywhaat

    Ive only had two. But we broke up for a reason so I no longer have feelings for them. If a person still does for whatever reason then they should acknowledge they are not ready for a relationship.

    I think having had a couple of relationship shows selectivity, though it depends on seriousness and duration as well.

    But I will add that Once I break from a person, all feelings are gone. Its relatively easy for me to do which might sound bad but love is a choice for me so othes experiences may very.

  • Lokland

    @WW

    If I detected avoidance that would be worse than a high count. As for don’t ask, don’t tell. Ya theres no need to mention it.

    @ Saywhaat

    Reasoning for all the no’s;

    Women tend to get over men very quickly. The situation Passer_By described I’ve only ever seen in movies and maybe Sassy and her ex.
    Therefore old love is really just that in most cases OLD love. 4

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Women tend to get over men very quickly.

      Yes, if by quickly you mean a couple of years.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    J,

    I have never had a man ask me for a number, my DH included. I would probably dump a man who asked, mostly because I feel that asking is a sign that even a low number would be too many and that answering the question would only lead to more questions that there were no good answers to.

    I only asked my ex when I was pretty sure it was over anyway. I’ve never asked a woman otherwise. Yet, I sympathize with guys who do or would, because while the CDC say otherwise, the impression is that there are a great many women participating in hook up culture in college.

    Honestly, the number means so little. Not only because women can lie, but b/c it only means P in V to most people anyway (think “Clerks”). In a society where many people think of oral sex as advanced making out, the number of P in V partners is only one part of the equation.

    I think you’re better off getting to know your partner as well as you can. If there are gaps in her history, taboo subjects, people she tries to avoid, etc.. those should be red flags.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    jess

    there is research suggesting higher count people have higher self esteem than lower count people.

    Do you have links to reputable studies?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JM

      Do you have links to reputable studies?

      Of course not, she has links to British newspapers with topless women on the cover.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    Women tend to get over men very quickly. The situation Passer_By described I’ve only ever seen in movies and maybe Sassy and her ex.
    Therefore old love is really just that in most cases OLD love. 4

    I am happy to report that I am finally over him. I didn’t know if this time would ever come, but it has. It seems that I took a hair of the dog that bit me, so to speak, by attempting to date him again. The second time around, I finally got all the answers to my lingering questions. We were able to make a clean break, and my heart genuinely feels lighter these days.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    sweetsue,

    what is being sought is yes a physical connection and a release; but it is being done for comfort to feel better, forget about the day the problem their responsibilities

    These are the same reasons someone might choose to smoke a blunt or two on the weekends. Doesn’t make them bad people. Doesn’t make them people I want to hang around, but it doesn’t make them bad people.

    and just be connect person to person at least for “awhile”

    I can understand that. But it implies a bit of isolation and desperation. If someone wants to make a “connection” with someone, there are more constructive ways of doing it.

    and feel emotionally secure and safe.

    In the arms of a person who doesn’t feel anything for them? Or is it just that they want to escape themselves for “awhile”?

    It’s interesting, when I read this post earlier today, I expected to get riled up. Certainly the last time promiscuity was the official topic of discussion here I did. I was in a different place, though. Now I don’t really care either way. People who need the temporary fix that casual sex somehow provides aren’t bad people and they don’t make me angry or threatened. They’re just more on a par with people who don’t know how to stop texting and making cell phone calls. They can be okay people, but they’re just not worth my time. If they can’t stand to be alone with themselves, than I sure as heck don’t think it’s worth the effort.

  • SayWhaat

    One of the many reasons I stopped dating theatre women.

    The BF is an opera singer. One of the reasons he stopped dating singers was because he didn’t want that competitiveness within the field to suffocate the relationship.

    Wait’ll he hears me singing in the shower…hehehe.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The BF is an opera singer.

      I love this so much. Talk about understanding the full range of human emotions!

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    “Yet, I sympathize with guys who do or would, because while the CDC say otherwise, the impression is that there are a great many women participating in hook up culture in college.”

    Ditto here. The environment, exaggerated as it is, kind of makes this kind of frank Q&A session much more common. As the recent thread on sex stats showed, half of people are in the low-to-mid single digits. I’m not sure why anyone “in the box” would get offended that kind of question. IMO number + context will give you everything you need to know to make a sound decision about commiting to someone. Of course, asking never works with people who lie or resort to window dressing.

    Stupid question — how does someone avoid a formerly “promiscious” guy or girl? Especially if merely asking the question will get you penalized. I mean, if someone gets offended and refuses to be candid, that’s a kind of answer all by itself…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Stupid question — how does someone avoid a formerly “promiscious” guy or girl? Especially if merely asking the question will get you penalized. I mean, if someone gets offended and refuses to be candid, that’s a kind of answer all by itself…

      This is very easy in college, but once kids graduate, all bets are off. People go out into the big city and reinvent themselves in whatever way they wish. And for the record, I don’t think Roissy’s slut tells are valid. I think Dogsquat once talked about how he susses out this information – encouraging women to let their hair down and fess up, essentially.

      We definitely need a filter for that.

  • SayWhaat

    Stupid question — how does someone avoid a formerly “promiscious” guy or girl? Especially if merely asking the question will get you penalized. I mean, if someone gets offended and refuses to be candid, that’s a kind of answer all by itself…

    Usually, the signs present themselves. Promiscuity is rewarded in our society so the guy/girl in question would probably feel like they had bragging rights about their sexual prowess. If they felt shame, they would hem and haw and evade whenever you so much as approach the topic in conversation. Background check with friends if you can (though that isn’t a fail-safe, especially if they’re closer to the person in question than they are to you). And I guess family relationships would provide another clue.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Older brothers are protective of their sisters, but little brothers will cough up any necessary information you require. Not that I’ve ever used this tactic. But I’m pretty sure it’s fail proof.

  • lalady

    My “number” is 10 mostly because of a promiscuous phase I had from roughly senior year of high school through sophomore year of college. It wasn’t until then that I suppose I took the female “red pill” and learned about game. It was from a drunken hookup and subsequent casual sex partner that I fell hard for, only to be unceremoniously dumped by the day after our first real date – which made it that much harder since the date had made me think he’d fallen for me too. His first two favorite books listed on Facebook were “The Game” and “The Art of Seduction” (Yes, really. I know.) After being dumped, I decided to order “The Art of Seduction” to try and figure out how I’d been tricked. In reality though, I hadn’t been tricked at all, at least not by him. I’d been tricked by the culture at large into thinking that there is no meaningful difference between men and women and their responses to sex. I thought there was something wrong with me when I kept banging my head against the door and it kept hurting. It wasn’t until after the “Art of Seduction” order was placed and Amazon suggested “The Game” (which I had assumed was about football) to me that I did some Googling. I soon found Roissy, and my trip down the rabbit hole began.

    Anyway, eventually I got my attitude adjusted, realized that sleeping with a guy right away is not the best idea, and started living my life accordingly. Many of the subsequent men I’ve dated or even been friends with have commented on how “innocent” and “pure” I seem. One asked if I was a virgin. Number 9 (who at the time I thought was a serious boyfriend prospect) said, “I bet I’m only the third guy you’ve slept with!” I answered the former’s question truthfully, but did not correct the latter ;)

    So for all you guys that think you can somehow tell if a girl is a slut or not, think again. In some cases that’s definitely true, but I’ve found that the only information most guys take into account in that respect is how you act around THEM. Once I started acting like a girl who valued herself and her sexuality, guys started assuming I was, and had always been, a good girl.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @lalady

      Welcome, thanks for sharing that comment. I give you a lot of credit for doing that self-examination and figuring out why you were behaving a certain way.

      I’d been tricked by the culture at large into thinking that there is no meaningful difference between men and women and their responses to sex.

      Thank feminism for that – women try on sexual liberation and then can’t understand why it feels like crap, and why guys dump them immediately. I’m glad you took the red pill.

  • SayWhaat

    So for all you guys that think you can somehow tell if a girl is a slut or not, think again. In some cases that’s definitely true, but I’ve found that the only information most guys take into account in that respect is how you act around THEM. Once I started acting like a girl who valued herself and her sexuality, guys started assuming I was, and had always been, a good girl.

    Agreed. I was more than a little stunned when I found out that Alison Brie (good girl “Annie Edison” on Community) was a raging slut in college. She has such an innocent face and vibe.

  • SayWhaat

    I’d been tricked by the culture at large into thinking that there is no meaningful difference between men and women and their responses to sex. I thought there was something wrong with me when I kept banging my head against the door and it kept hurting.

    This is very poignant.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SayWhaat
    Thanks, I was just thinking out loud. Obviously, someone proud of it wouldn’t be offended by the question. Looking for circumstantial signs as you suggest might work, but you could always assume incorrectly. I guess the better question is how do you determine what kind of a person you’re interested in before you really fall for him or her (i.e. sleep together)?

    It just seems like being honest as early as possible in the relationship would avoid all this evasionary dancing around. Seems like that would help both people determine whether they’re compatible.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Honestly, I’d rather a woman just be honest about it. Obviously, if she gets away with saying nothing, I’d be none the wiser, but I’m sure I would end the relationship in a heartbeat if it seemed as if she were hiding her past and I found out.

    Btw, lalady, 10 isn’t terrible super slut or anything.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Agreed. I was more than a little stunned when I found out that Alison Brie (good girl “Annie Edison” on Community) was a raging slut in college. She has such an innocent face and vibe.

    i will say to the lurkers not trusting into be that girl that cannot be tell is a slut, IME this is a lot harder. Coming back from sluttiness after certain number (that varies depending on the person) is nearly impossible. Is very likely that you can learn to fake it (and SayWhaat she is an actress for a reason) but in the end in the bed only a very inexperience guy won’t notice certain things about you or that he doesn’t want to notice or that you are such a good package that whatever he might be thinking he rather just not think about it too hard, but then there is the problem that if 15 years in the marriage some of this information comes up and is in the middle of a crisis things can get a turn for the ugly really fast. Is better to be on the safe side just in case.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ana,

    Yea. That made me think of deti. Honestly, I don’t know how he’s coping with that. 15 years of lying about your sexual past… Idk, seems almost as bad as cheating.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Oh, and that whole Alison Brie story… Ugh, though the pot smoking would be a clue, no?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    “Oh, and that whole Alison Brie story… Ugh, though the pot smoking would be a clue, no?”

    And she became a successful actress. That kind of fame tends to blunt any feelings of remorse or second thoughts. Think of the girls who do that kind of stuff and don’t succeed in life. What happens then? They’ve severely restricted the % of guys who will ever want to commit to them. Hindsight’s a bitch. Less is probably more, in the long run.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega

    And she became a successful actress. That kind of fame tends to blunt any feelings of remorse or second thoughts. Think of the girls who do that kind of stuff and don’t succeed in life. What happens then? They’ve severely restricted the % of guys who will ever want to commit to them. Hindsight’s a bitch. Less is probably more, in the long run.

    I don’t understand the lack of shame or what separates a person like that from someone like Tucker Max.

  • purplesneakers

    Maybe! I wonder if men really do wonder if their girl has “been around” by her performance in bed.

    I always wondered about this. Isn’t it possible that the girl who’s had 2 partners, both in lengthy LTRs, and had sex with them frequently, is “better” in bed than the girl whose sexual history is basically a string of drunken one-night stands?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    I don’t know much about this Tucker guy. Actors, celebrities, artists, etc. tend to be on the promiscuous side, especially when they achieve fame, success, and lots of money. There are exceptions to the rule (Leelee Sobieski comes to mind). I actually think that kind of exposure changes a person’s brain chemistry.

  • SayWhaat

    Ugh, though the pot smoking would be a clue, no?

    What’s wrong with pot?

  • Charm

    @Leap

    Lol, NO NO NO! I hate double standards and I hate hypocrites. I was being sarcastic though, now that I reread it I see that it wasn’t conveyed as well as I had thought. Damn.

    What I meant to say was if a man cares them people tell him:
    “Get over it”
    “You’re an insecure little boy”
    “You’re sexist or misogynistic”

    I personally think it is a choice. It matters to some people. It matters to me and I don’t want to be told to get over it. Its my preference. I think men also have a right to an honest answer. Now if a man sleep around and demands a chaste women, he will get no respect from me. But if a man values sex with partners I don’t think there is nothing wrong with being bothered by a women with a promiscuous pass.

    Whenever I google promiscuity and read some of the links with men confessing to being put off or uncomfortable about having discovered their partners slutty past all the responses are trying to shame them. I dislike that. If people are allowed to not be bothered by it, then Im not going to force them to care, but people who dislike it also have the right to. Feminism can kiss my ass. They may be able to brainwash a lot of women, and some men, but they can’t brainwash me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega,

    I know very few celebs (to the point that I’ve met a few and only realized it after the fact when I was told) and even less about their personal lives… I prefer it that way. Tucker Max is a douche bag.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Saywhaat,

    Nothing’s “wrong” with pot. But I wouldn’t ever be surprised to find out that someone who smoked it regularly was promiscuous. And I’d be less inclined to believe a pot smoker who claimed never to have been promiscuous.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    –Plus the fact that I wouldn’t get into a relationship with a pot smoker whether or not I thought she was promiscuous.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    You’re rather puritanical in your preferences : )

    I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. Personally, cigarette smoking and/or tattoos were turn-offs. I don’t know about dealbreakers, but definitely unattractive.

  • Charm

    Stupid question — how does someone avoid a formerly “promiscious” guy or girl? Especially if merely asking the question will get you penalized. I mean, if someone gets offended and refuses to be candid, that’s a kind of answer all by itself…

    I agree with saywhaat the signs are there and they generally have not problem talking very in depth about it. From what I have observed people who have casual sex a lot wear it as some kind of badge of honor. The guy I worked with that was well into the triple digits used to say how most people are stuck up about sex and refuse to talk about. I disagree. I think that most people don’t feel the need or have the desire to talk about sex. Look at how much sex sells in this damn country. Hell someone is buying it. I dislike how promiscuous people try to play the “Im sleep around which means Im comfortable with my sexuality” card. Its not like sex is this thing that is only reserved for the most special people in the world. Most people partake in it one some level. I think that if having X number of partners is your trump card then thats sad.

    Re How do I avoid people with high counts?

    Well, I’ve read a lot of game blogs and some guys talk about how they get burned out of game and are ready to settle down. Thats all fine and dandy, but odds are it wont be with me. I literally have not problem with saying out loud “I don’t date people who like casual sex because I value sex and do not care to be with someone who does not.” Call me crazy, but it gets results. I like people to know up front what I wont put up with. Does this make dating a bit harder for me? Yes, I wont deny it, but eventually someone will appreciate my upfront honestly. Ive been told it is refreshing.

    Thing is the two most valuable things I have is my body and my time. Only I can protect both of those things. The odds of me catching an STI from a promiscuous man is higher, and the odds of him then getting bored and cheating, thus wasting my precious time (and fertility) is also higher. Im all for risks that make gains, but I do not like ones in which I don’t gain much. Risking my body, and time on a man with a high body count when there are less risky men is ridiculous.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I don’t know much about this Tucker guy. Actors, celebrities, artists, etc. tend to be on the promiscuous side, especially when they achieve fame, success, and lots of money. I actually think that kind of exposure changes a person’s brain chemistry.

    Well according to blind items every single celebrity we had mentioned at HUS at any point is bisexual or is gay/lesbian with a beard, so yeah…

    There are exceptions to the rule (Leelee Sobieski comes to mind).
    She is not alone. http://waitingtillmarriage.org/category/celebrities-who-waited-till-marriage/ of course she has been married twice already so I really don’t know how that fares for her prospects. I any case there are others that are in similar trends.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega

    A puritanical atheist. lol.

    I grew up suffering neglect and abuse from alcoholics and pot heads. I’ve had friends who moved from pot to acid to heroin to dead.

    I have no problem with someone having a drink or two to relax after a hard day and all that… but I have no use for people who get drunk or high. My view is that if you can’t hack life facing it head on that’s fine, but I have no time for you. I’ll be spending my time with people I actually respect.

    Life’s a crazy riotous adventure all on it’s own. I don’t need chemicals to make it more interesting.

  • Charm

    I agree with Jesus.

    Most of my family member partook in a lot of much harder drugs than weed when I was a kid. My older sister started smoking it in the 9th grade and dropped out and didn’t get her GEC until she was 21. Ive seen the ramifications of drug use and I dislike it. I wouldn’t mind being friends with someone who smoked (though we probably wouldnt be close) but dating them is out of the question.

    @Megaman

    Tattoos rule! *says the younger generation*

    Though too many, can be unattractive.

  • Passer_By

    @purplesneakers

    “Isn’t it possible that the girl who’s had 2 partners, both in lengthy LTRs, and had sex with them frequently, is “better” in bed than the girl whose sexual history is basically a string of drunken one-night stands?”

    Not possible, probable – assuming she cared at all. Though I’m guessing someone is was sort of a combination might be even more skilled.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Charm
    “Tattoos rule! *says the younger generation*”

    Sexual regret starts to kick in when people are looking to settle down, usually mid-to-late 20s. Tattoo regret won’t kick in until you hit 40 (or later)!

    Add weird piercings to the unattractive list. But I’d never say smoking, drinking, tattoos, body-mods all = promiscuous. I’ve met a couple of ladies who disproved the stereotype. Didn’t make them look any better, though…

  • Lokland

    @ JM, Charm, Saywhaat

    I’m with JM and Charm. Pot is a dealbreaker its up there with smoking or drinking excessively.

    Mostly because its an escape from reality.

    Also had druggie grandparents on one side and an alcoholic grandfather on the other side.
    Similarities much?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Charm,

    Most of my family member partook in a lot of much harder drugs than weed when I was a kid. My older sister started smoking it in the 9th grade and dropped out and didn’t get her GEC until she was 21. Ive seen the ramifications of drug use and I dislike it. I wouldn’t mind being friends with someone who smoked (though we probably wouldnt be close) but dating them is out of the question.

    Similar deal. I’m the only Mahoney of my generation (out of 12) to get a high school diploma, let alone go on to college. I don’t get the allure of the whole drinking/smoking thing. People get drunk and high and… do the same stupid things they’d be doing sober.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega,

    Obviously pot smoking doesn’t always equal promiscuity, but it’s not uncommon. First, it lowers inhibitions. Second, it shows a lack of self-respect. Third and last, it’s a cheap form of escape.

    The second and third are problematic (and unattractive) even if the woman weren’t promiscuous.

  • Charm

    @Megaman

    Oh, I know tattoos start to look like crap after a while, though if you take care of your skin they can look better a while longer. The way I see it, were all gonna end up looking like burlap sacks anyway, it doesnt really matter to me. Not like Im gonna be sporting a bikini at 45+. Though, I agree, a lot of people don’t really think it all the way through. They do it because they think its cool. I remember get a new tattoo a couple of years ago, and everyone else all of a sudden wanted one too. But I see them as my way of enjoying my youth and expressing myself. Some people do drugs, or drink and party, or have lots of sex in their youth. I chose the get ink. And I respect people who dislike it, which again, is why I tell people upfront that while they can only see 2 small ones, that I have much larger ones, just in case they dislike it.

  • Charm

    Smoking weed to me means that you seek instant gratification or you need a substance to deal with your problems or to make yourself feel better( so I can understand how someone thinks promiscuous as well). I know some people smoke it to relax or whatever, but if you want to clear your mind do some yoga or meditate or something. Smoking weed is the easy way out.

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    Jesus M.
    Idk. In a way, I feel like you should judge the person for whom they are now. I mean, unless you’re buying a home in the neighborhood where the woman slept around. Yet, it’s obviously a significant part of a person’s history. And if the person doesn’t think it is, then… that might be worse.

    Thank you so much for this. I absolutely agree.

    There’s two sides to this. I understand that people have preferences, that’s fine. I also understand the risk of being with those who had casual sex (men and women) when it comes to health, fidelity, and pregnancy.

    But the other side is this. If a person has changed for the better and is no longer who they were in the past, then why refer to them as who they were? It’s like continually calling a woman a slut even though that was who she was in the PAST. No matter how much she has changed and the fact that she no longer lives that lifestyle. Seriously, it’s like guys almost treat it like a personal insult or a slight against them somehow. Can people not change?

  • purplesneakers

    I kind of assume that men have been/are promiscuous (and only looking for something “casual”) if they are very good-looking AND tall. Sometimes I can also just tell based on body language, facial expression, and how a guy looks at you (which reveals whether he’s intimidated by you, cares a lot about your approval, etc.). Of course I may be assuming too much here.

  • Charm

    @Renee

    I understand your point. It is extremely relevant. I believe people really can change. However, I think that those same people need to understand that it might bother some. I don’t prefer but is that written in stone? No. I could understand it under certain circumstances. But a person simply refusing to talk about it and saying “its in the past” won’t get you anywhere with me.

    Change, to me, means that you’ve acknowledged something and move on from it. So in this case I think a person should be able to openly talk about past behavior. A lot of people want to sweep it under the rug and that makes me distrust them. If someone came to me and said “Look I slept with a bunch of people in the past for [insert honest reason], Im not proud of it, and decided to change my behavior because of XYZ”, I could respect that. I think it shows maturity through owning your shit.

    But how many people honestly do that? They try to hide it or lie. They all just want people to get over it. Telling people to get over it means you’re not even cognizant of the risk the person is taking investing in your ass. Thats extremely selfish and arrogant. Im open to talking about it like adults if a person is also willing to engage me and be completely honest about it. But the reality of the situation is that when people get older they all want stability, and promiscuous past makes you less stable, so I’d advice people to step it up in some other area.

  • purplesneakers

    I meant to add- so it must be easier for girls than for guys to screen out promiscuous partners. That men do the approaching most often makes it so that girls get a sense of what kind of guy is after what.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I meant to add- so it must be easier for girls than for guys to screen out promiscuous partners. That men do the approaching most often makes it so that girls get a sense of what kind of guy is after what.

    Is actually easy to spot but hard to reject the level of confidence says how many women the man has bedded.
    The thing is it seems that confidence is the Female Viagra and very few woman will look for anything else and overlook any other lacking if a guy has confidence and seems like he knows what he is doing.
    But men are not like women women can be hurt or healed by words if you read a self help book or many enough and you surrounded yourself with people that tell you “how wonderful you are” you are likely to achieve confidence on yourself out of of the thin air of words. But if you tell the same things to a man but when he approaches one or several girls they don’t respond to him he is not going to buy the sweet words he won’t become confident till he actually gets results from his efforts, so confidence on a guy come 99% out of personal success with women and the most successful the guy the closer to the manwhore profile he is.
    Now tell that to a woman that just have her panties wet for one member of this elusive species and see if she will just walk out…chances are she will tell herself anything she needs to hear to take her chances with him, YMMV.

  • Charm

    @purplesneakers

    yea, its probably much harder for men. it sucks, but id gladly lend my method for weeding them out, though you will get called a judgmental asshole in the process, which is just a small price to pay. also guys can meet girls through women they know aren’t promiscuous can’t they? isnt this why its best to hunt in a familiar environment so you are at least partially informed about the girl? though, i dont know maybe girls will lie for their friends who have been slutty.

  • Lokland

    @Renee

    “Can people not change?”

    Ya but how many, 50%, 75?

    Also keep in mind that most people don’t need to change.

    I’ll give you an example, I get two kinds of applications for lab positions. Those who had 90s in their third and fourth year of uni (or grad w/e it is) and those who were consistent all the way through.

    I have NEVER hired someone who picked it up in the end stretch. Quite simply, everyone has a past and MOST PEOPLE don’t need to change.

    In the end it all comes down to this, “you fucked up,” and theres 10 more people who didn’t.
    You may get to the same place where the journey is the only distinguishable difference and most people would prefer consistency,

    So, I agree, people can change. But why deal with those people when you can deal with the large majority that don’t need to change?

  • Charm

    @Renee

    I’d also like to add that promiscuous people are trying to have their cake and eat it too. When girls sleep around they generally get alot of attention from men. Men really like them, and more chaste women tend to get ignored, but when its time for marriage and kids the tables turn. Promiscuous girls get tossed to the bottom of the barrel. Sure, maybe its not fair, but thats life. Its not fair how attractive women get treated better than homely girls. Its not fair that some men were blessed with height (thus desirable) while others were not. Promiscuous girls get upset because they can’t have their cake now and later. But thats what delayed gratification is all about. Good things have always come to those who wait.

    The guy that was a loser all through his teens and early 20s (for whatever reason) but bloomed later on in life got no sympathy from anyone at the time, so why should I sympathize with a former promiscuous woman? We all get dealt a hand and we choose how we play it. But we all knew the rules and risks involved. So, I feel sorry for no one.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Charm
    Thanks for clarifying. I was confused, because you seemed like on of the last women I’d expect to circle the wagons, but I’ve been surprised by that before.

    @SayWhaat
    The professionalism and career were part of it. And a large part at that (had one bad break up and thats all I needed to see what a petty ex can do for your career in the arts). That and just realizing while the theatre people are the ones I love to spend time with, they’re not what I’m looking for in a significant other at all.

  • Charm

    In the end it all comes down to this, “you fucked up,” and theres 10 more people who didn’t.
    You may get to the same place where the journey is the only distinguishable difference and most people would prefer consistency

    +1

    I think promiscuous people (especially women) start to sweat once they realize the long term ramifications of their decisions. They get to marrying age and wonder why men are wary of choosing them to mother their children. Promiscuous women don’t give a damn when they are lowering the value of sex for all young women in their 20s simply because they want to have a “good time”. Girls who don’t put out are stigmatized because men are expecting it do to what they’ve been told. Then the tables turn later on. I wont shed on tear over it.

  • Charm

    @Leap

    Lol. Nah, Ill never pull the old switcheroo on anyone. If I choose to change my position on an issue it will only happen after I have spent ample time reconsidering. Haven’t you learned by now that Im pretty headstrong? I shall not be moved!

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    Thanks for the responses :)

    I’ve always been wary the reasoning that women who are promiscuous have issues. I mean, yeah that’s true in some cases, but what about the fact that some females just enjoy sex? Are there levels of promiscuity – like say casual sex here and there vs. a sexual partner every week?

    Yes, I know men and women are different, but painting promiscuous women as generally women with deep issues may only deal with one type of promiscuous woman.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    That and just realizing while the theatre people are the ones I love to spend time with, they’re not what I’m looking for in a significant other at all.

    My husband is theatre people and he married me who is not. His coworker also “married” and accountant or something like it. I think theatre people rarely partner up unless they are actors is what I had seen so far, YMMV.

  • Charm

    @Renee

    For me, it has never come down to shaming people for enjoying sex. It is obviously human nature to enjoy it. It is what we were designed for. What gets me is the risks men and women will take for a sexual release. You’d risk pregnancy and an STI with man partners over and over again just because you enjoy sex? That seems primitive. Animals do shit like this. Human beings have the mental capacity to see how this behavior could possibly work against them in the form of an STI and a unwanted child.

    If you like sex then find one partner and fuck their brains out. It doesn’t need to be done with a dozen people. The fact that people get do it with a ton of people means they get bored easily and will likely leave you once they get tired of you. I enjoy sex ONLY because Im doing it with someone I care about deeply. The orgasm is just the happy ending. If all I wanted was an orgasm well…they make stuff for that, no?

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Charm
    Haha. Fair. Nothing against you, I just am used to different styles of emotions/thinking in my every day life, so I hold those as the ‘norm’ of what I’ll run into there. Online things are much more diverse and malleable.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Of course not, she has links to British newspapers with topless women on the cover.

    I’d be open to her sharing links to topless women also.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I think Dogsquat once talked about how he susses out this information – encouraging women to let their hair down and fess up, essentially.

    Ultimately, I think this is the way to go. But it’s not as if this can be accomplished in an evening or even over the course of a few weeks. It requires one to slough off that whole judgmental mindset–and any sort of dependence on outcome–and then just stay perceptive.

    People generally don’t want to keep secrets. The moment they have a secret, they have the impulse to divulge it–and will, if they feel they won’t be judged harshly for it. While I didn’t come out and ask my ex about her past till the very end, I think I made it clear that I would disapprove of that kind of thing, so she knew that she had to hide it.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    “Yes, if by quickly you mean a couple of years.”

    Come on this is evopsych 101. Provider dies find new provider.
    If you mean not get over an alpha, ya that I understand. However alphas aren’t really into LTRs to begin with which is what Saywhaat asked about.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Come on this is evopsych 101. Provider dies find new provider.

      What can I say, my own experience and observations don’t always square with the red pill stuff, at least not to the same degree. As you say, most of the young men I know in relationships are beta guys, and I’ve seen many young women with broken hearts over them. The mythical alpha is just that.

  • Ramble

    Promiscuous women don’t give a damn when they are lowering the value of sex for all young women in their 20s simply because they want to have a “good time”.

    Which is why Slut Shaming was such an important part of the Bad, Old days.

  • Jason

    I think we’ve touched on this before but I’d like more clarification. We know that a woman’s sexual history is obviously threatening to a man, but what of her romantic history? If she has only had one or two lovers in her life, would you feel threatened that she may have never gotten over her ex (particularly in the Facebook age), and would that affect your decision to LTR?

    It’s all intertwined on a case by case basis. I’d take two LTRs in her life over a bunch of partners, but in general I’ve subscribed to the idea that if you are the best man that she has had to this point, then there won’t be a longing for the past on her part.

  • http://deleted Jason

    I’m surprised that more than a few posters wouldn’t ask for N or would be offended by it. Based on previous posts my stance is clear that I’m not afraid to ask, but it matters in which manner it is done. If it comes off as insecure, then it will be seen as insecure. If it comes off as logical and inquisitive with a solid frame, then it will be seen in that manner.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Renee,

    Thank you so much for this. I absolutely agree.

    There’s two sides to this. I understand that people have preferences, that’s fine. I also understand the risk of being with those who had casual sex (men and women) when it comes to health, fidelity, and pregnancy.

    But the other side is this. If a person has changed for the better and is no longer who they were in the past, then why refer to them as who they were? It’s like continually calling a woman a slut even though that was who she was in the PAST. No matter how much she has changed and the fact that she no longer lives that lifestyle. Seriously, it’s like guys almost treat it like a personal insult or a slight against them somehow. Can people not change?

    I have sympathy for a woman in this position. On the one hand, just coming out and telling a guy all about your past doesn’t seem like the right move–in the same way I wouldn’t sit a woman down and tell her all about my family history, which is full of red flags. You don’t want to be defined by that past. And yet, avoiding the topic altogether seems shady. If the guy finds out or gets suspicious, you’re most certainly going to look like you were being deceitful–and if you really are avoiding it, you kind of are being deceitful. If you go the third route and just mention it casually when the topic comes up, you make it seem like you don’t think anything of it.

    If the guy is sensitive to the subject (and let’s face it, the more the cads clean up and the more “relationship” guys sit on the sidelines, the more you’re going to find guys who are sensitive about this issue), then it’s going to be a difficult one to deal with no matter what.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jason,

    If it comes off as insecure, then it will be seen as insecure. If it comes off as logical and inquisitive with a solid frame, then it will be seen in that manner.

    It’s as simple as that. You mentioned that you’ve asked girls the morning after ONSs. If the girl is cool with you asking that question, it would seem to me an indicator that she isn’t into you for a relationship atm… Which means she was just DTF. Which means that whether you were first or fortieth, you’ve got a girl with a promiscuous mindset.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    *NOT as simple…

  • http://deleted Jason

    JM,

    I wouldn’t ever say a girl has been right of the bat cool with that question, where they go ‘Well *giggle giggle* my number is N’. Also, it’s not like I have asked every girl the morning after, considering my true ONS number is less than 5. My tactics have been more in line with what Susan posted earlier about Dogsquat…

    I think Dogsquat once talked about how he susses out this information – encouraging women to let their hair down and fess up, essentially.

    Make them feel comfortable, like it’s nbd and that I’m nonjudgemental. It’s amazing what you can get anyone to reveal by taking this attitude. Yeah, in reality what I am doing is deceptive, but it’s been the best tactic for my own ends.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      Make them feel comfortable, like it’s nbd and that I’m nonjudgemental. It’s amazing what you can get anyone to reveal by taking this attitude. Yeah, in reality what I am doing is deceptive, but it’s been the best tactic for my own ends.

      For the record, I have no problem with this kind of “deception.” It’s just sensible given the history of the sexual double standard and feminism’s attempt to eradicate it. It may be unfortunate for women, but your approach is probably the best way to get to the truth, and I think all men deserve that.

  • http://deleted Jason

    JM,

    I know you are in a relatively new relationship, but it’s been mentioned on here that you had an old one that went south in what I assume is a bad manner? I’m curious as to what happened if you don’t mind sharing, or if you want to link me to previous posts on the subject.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    DogSquat – “To make this prediction accurately you must understand why you feel the way you do now. People rarely bother to do any sort of meaningful self-examination. Worse, self-examination is easily confused with self-justification or infected by fantasy.”

    Exactly. I think I’ve tried to make this point several times, but I don’t think I’ve ever made it this simple to grasp. ;)

    Jamie – “For instance, a girl might date a guy for a few weeks, realize that there isn’t any long term potential but have sex with him anyway because he’s good looking and nice and usually orders pizza. It’s not ideal, but it’s better than nothing”

    If there is no long term potential, the thing to do is say so and leave. I would rather go with nothing than something that I know beyond all doubt isn’t going to work.

    Sweetsue – “As the convo continues – what is being sought is yes a physical connection and a release; but it is being done for comfort to feel better, forget about the day the problem their responsibilities and just be connect person to person at least for “awhile” and feel emotionally secure and safe.”

    OK I get that. But does a woman really get all that from a guy she picked up in a bar? If so, then I would question her capacity to know the “real deal” when she finds it, because to me it seems her bar is set rather low.

    J – “I have never had a man ask me for a number, my DH included. I would probably dump a man who asked, mostly because I feel that asking is a sign that even a low number would be too many and that answering the question would only lead to more questions that there were no good answers to.”

    Remember, for some men it isn’t JUST the number we are looking for. I want to know HOW she got there, and if she learned any useful life lessons along the way. Of course more questions would follow. I’m wondering why you think that would end badly?

    Jesus M – “I only asked my ex when I was pretty sure it was over anyway. I’ve never asked a woman otherwise. Yet, I sympathize with guys who do or would, because while the CDC say otherwise, the impression is that there are a great many women participating in hook up culture in college.”

    I ask every time. And not too far into the relationship so we aren’t wasting any time. But, as I said above, it isn’t just a tally. In this conversation, I also start trying to feel out how she felt about her previous relationships. What she liked about them, and disliked. How she dealt with fights, breakups, and exes all comes into play for me. I want to know how she handled all her previous romantic and sexual experiences (not in detail!) so I can get a feel for where she is coming from, and what I can expect going forward. For real, it is a bit like a job interview to me. But, as you and everyone here knows, I am indeed an odd bird, so I consider this a compatibility test. That doesn’t mean a woman with a casual past has no chance with me at all, but I would need to see some evidence of a “change of heart” for lack of a better term, before I would consider moving forward. I’m finding that can be a tall order. Not because women don’t have that change of heart, but because most don’t seem to want to admit it. So it takes some real detective work it seems, to figure out that part.

    Megaman – “IMO number + context will give you everything you need to know to make a sound decision about commiting to someone. Of course, asking never works with people who lie or resort to window dressing.”

    YES! This is exactly what I was getting at above. The “number” question comes as part of this conversation, where I want to know context of past events.

    “I mean, if someone gets offended and refuses to be candid, that’s a kind of answer all by itself…”

    Exactly.

    Lalady – “So for all you guys that think you can somehow tell if a girl is a slut or not, think again. In some cases that’s definitely true, but I’ve found that the only information most guys take into account in that respect is how you act around THEM. Once I started acting like a girl who valued herself and her sexuality, guys started assuming I was, and had always been, a good girl.”

    Well, if you are OK with knowing you are not being truthful with the man you claim to love, then I guess keeping your history a secret is fine in your book. Good for you.

    I can tell you that I pay at least as much attention to how a woman behaves with her friends and family as what she tells me to my face. In fact, if what she tells me doesn’t jive with how she acts with others, it clues me in to pay MORE attention to all the details.

    That being said, you also prove that a woman can start promiscuity in one mental “place” and through that learn and be in another mental “place” later in life, which for a guy like me is exactly what I would want to see. If we were attempting a relationship, the best outcome would be from being honest with me about your number, how you got it, and exactly what you learned FROM it. I could then make a judgment on if I believed you, and that your “transformation” (another bad word choice but its early and I’ve had no coffee yet…) is the real deal. Hiding it from me would probably just pique my curiosity and I’d start digging.

    Renee – “Seriously, it’s like guys almost treat it like a personal insult or a slight against them somehow. Can people not change?”

    Of course people can change. But, the concern for me here is: is the change for real? And, will this change stick? I’ve known people that were on drugs, and went to rehab. They were clean and sober while things were good, but as soon as life got tough, which it always does, they went back to using. To me, a promiscuous past is indeed a lot like a former drug addiction. Sure you can stop having casual sex, and even believe you are done with it. But what will happen when our relationship gets tough, as they all do? Will she still be willing to stay the course, or will she start longing for her “fix” again?

    Charm – “Change, to me, means that you’ve acknowledged something and move on from it. So in this case I think a person should be able to openly talk about past behavior. A lot of people want to sweep it under the rug and that makes me distrust them. If someone came to me and said “Look I slept with a bunch of people in the past for [insert honest reason], Im not proud of it, and decided to change my behavior because of XYZ”, I could respect that. I think it shows maturity through owning your shit.”

    Cosign and +1. This entire post was spot on Charm. ;)

    “If you like sex then find one partner and fuck their brains out. It doesn’t need to be done with a dozen people. “

    Oh My God! What a novel concept! You mean, if you want regular sex, it might be a good idea to find someone and form a LTR?! Surely you jest?

    That was sarcasm. I agree 100% with you and indeed this is exactly how I made it to 41 years old with a low partner count. I had lots of sex, with very few woman over the course of my life. In fact, I would put money on the fact that I’ve probably had more sex than many PUA/cad types, because other than the last several years of my marriage, every one of my LTRs included healthy helpings of sex. And, since I was in a LTR, I didn’t have to go out looking for it.

    I don’t get why young people are so afraid to just partner up. NO one says you have to marry them, but at least start practicing for the real deal so that when you DO find that person, you have experience dealing with relationships. Casual sex only prepares you for, wait for it, Casual sex!

    “I enjoy sex ONLY because Im doing it with someone I care about deeply. “
    Cosign and +1 again. And this is the other reason I question the depth and breadth of emotions felt by people that practice casual sex. I enjoy sex with my SO because of how I feel about her. Without those feelings, it would be nothing more than a mechanical process. Anyone that derives so much happiness and pleasure from only the mechanical part seems to me to be rather shallow, emotionally speaking.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Jason – “It’s all intertwined on a case by case basis. I’d take two LTRs in her life over a bunch of partners, but in general I’ve subscribed to the idea that if you are the best man that she has had to this point, then there won’t be a longing for the past on her part.”

    But that is the easy part man. If she is all happy to be with you, then you are probably the best guy she’s been with. But, what about five years from now? 10? Relationships are a bit like cars. They are great when they are new: they smell good, they are tight in the turns, and responsive. Over time, parts wear out, smell goes away, and now the repair bills start coming. Lots of people tend to dump their cars and get a new one when this happens, because new is always exciting. But, I prefer to stick with my cars as long as I can. I like the comfort I’ve built over the years driving it, and at least I know what problems it has, and what problems have already been fixed.

    So being the best man she has ever had may be easy in the now, but what about in the future?

  • Charm

    @Jesus

    From what I’ve seen, when it comes to having bad childhoods, it tends to go one of two ways for people:

    1. they are either pretty screwed up or scarred by it and carry that pain everywhere they go.

    or

    2. they emerged from it stronger and a better person because of it.

    I’ve personally fit the latter. Had I not had a bad childhood I probably wouldn’t be the person that I am today. Sure, it sucks not to have had the ideal like most other people but I can’t truly miss what i never had. I think that it is usually pretty evident if a person is the latter or the former. Plus, you and I never had a choice in matter. You simply cannot choose the family you got, but you have a choice in how you live with it. Currently Im estranged from my entire family because they literally only harm my quality of life. They still do drugs, sell drugs, commit crimes, steal and are very much stuck in the cycle of poverty.

    I can’t be apart of that crap. I was forced to endure it for 18 years, and I wont have it anymore. Now, I have a choice in the matter and I wont let all their bad decisions to impact my life any further. Im the opposite of all those negative things. Im on a damn mission to make sure Im nothing like them. I have no problem divulging that to someone Im dating either. I dont see it as a red flag.

  • http://deleted Jason

    Ted,

    But that is the easy part man. If she is all happy to be with you, then you are probably the best guy she’s been with. But, what about five years from now? 10? Relationships are a bit like cars. They are great when they are new: they smell good, they are tight in the turns, and responsive. Over time, parts wear out, smell goes away, and now the repair bills start coming. Lots of people tend to dump their cars and get a new one when this happens, because new is always exciting. But, I prefer to stick with my cars as long as I can. I like the comfort I’ve built over the years driving it, and at least I know what problems it has, and what problems have already been fixed.

    So being the best man she has ever had may be easy in the now, but what about in the future?

    That was one of the funnier posts I’ve read in a while. It made me picture my gf 10 years from now as a busted up Buick with leaky oil and a slipping transmission.

    FTR, I don’t think it should ever get toooooo comfortable, with both parties letting themselves go and slipping into routine. A relationship is a social contract, and men as well as women should try to honor that contract by maintaining their initial roles and traits to the best of their abilities in the future. Double standards exist, but I don’t think this is one of them.

    But since I haven’t been at that point, this is all speculation for now. I’ll see if my attitude changes if I ever reach the 10 year mark with someone.

  • http://deleted Jason

    Also, I was reading through Rollo’s blog for the first time yesterday, and a relationship game post of his really struck me. It essentially said that the best frame for going into a relationship is to assume a really ‘alpha’ character, and let the girl think that her feminine wiles were able to soften you up and tame the lion. This seems to bode best for a future imo.

    With my current realtionship I did this because it naturally seemed like the best tactic. I admit that I played up my ‘alpha’ frame a little bit, but this allowed me to scale back to where I feel comfortable and natural, and to where she thinks that she ‘won’ me. A win-win. In the future though, while it won’t come out as often as it did in the beginning, she knows that at least I have this ‘assholish alpha’ card deep in my back pocket, which keeps the ‘tingle satisfied.

  • J

    I think you’re better off getting to know your partner as well as you can. If there are gaps in her history, taboo subjects, people she tries to avoid, etc.. those should be red flags.

    I would agree.

    I think it is also more important to look at current behavior and values, especially if a person’s recent history differs a lot from his/her distant past.

    This is especially true with widowed or divorced people. A person may have been a faithful spouse and then decide to sleep with anything and everything that moves. I have an older widowed friend who is constantly being dogged by a widower who was faithful to his wife for close to fifty years. However, since then, he has gone through women faster than most men go through underwear. He’s a horrible bet for my friend despite having had a good history for decades. Conversely, many of the married female posters here have been faithful wives despite having had a relationship or two before marriage. I don’t think college hookup history is predictive of anything for those women. Personally, it’s been about a quarter of a century since I have so much as kissed any man other than DH. Were anything to happen to him and I found myself dating again, I’d be very turned off by being asked about events that happened 30 years ago.

  • J

    I am happy to report that I am finally over him. . . We were able to make a clean break, and my heart genuinely feels lighter these days.

    Glad to hear it, Sassy. I had a relationship in my 20s that was on again off again for years. It was wonderful when I finally moved on.

    I had wanted to marry this guy. He never married. Ironically, I run into him from time to time, and he tells me that he regards me as the one who got away. I regard him as a dodged bullet.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com/2012/02/she-feels-so-damn-good.html Ted D

    Lol. I drive a Chrysler. I just can’t picture my SO as a beat up 300 sitting in he garage. :p

    I agree that too much comfort can kill a relationship. My marriage tanked partially because of it in fact. But, I am the type of person that places far more value on comfort and security than fun and excitement. In fact, I very much dislike surprises in general, and although excitement gets my juices flowing, it can also lead to anxiety. So I am doing my best to be more spontaneous with my SO, or more specifically, “appear” to be. In fact, I still plan things well in advance, I just don’t tell her about it. Then, when time comes for the main event, she is surprised and excited, and I feel secure about it because I know the plan. It’s a subtle change from my standard, which is to include her in the plans from the start.

    This is one of the “game” concepts I put to use. It doesn’t change a single thing about me, but to my SO it appears that I am being more spontaneous. Now if she can remember how much I hate surprises…

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “We definitely need a filter for that.”

    Ideally, before the deed is done. That’s the challenge I’ve observed. Once two people who are dating go all the way, it can be assumed they have feelings for one another. Asking about sexual history after the fact could imply doubt or discomfort already. Whereas getting that discussion out of the way before sex would be more like curiosity and “filtering”. The filter used to be: not having sex too soon, getting to know someone better. A lot of heartache could be avoided using the old filter.

    I recall an old stereotype in college that went something like this: young people from strict or traditional upbringing tended to go hog wild once they had a taste of freedom. That’s what was driving promiscuity. I’m not so sure if it’s that simple. Doesn’t coming from a broken home or having lax parenting contribute, too?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      I recall an old stereotype in college that went something like this: young people from strict or traditional upbringing tended to go hog wild once they had a taste of freedom. That’s what was driving promiscuity. I’m not so sure if it’s that simple. Doesn’t coming from a broken home or having lax parenting contribute, too?

      The primary factor is kids moving into coed dorms, reflecting the loss of in loco parentis at college. Research does show that children of divorce are more wary of relationships and therefore more likely to prefer casual sex. I haven’t seen lax parenting blamed, though it certainly makes sense. The mothers of promiscuous girls in high school appear to be in denial, as far as I could tell.

  • J

    Similar deal. I’m the only Mahoney of my generation (out of 12) to get a high school diploma, let alone go on to college

    Interesting. I’m the only person in a generation of over 60 cousins on my dad’s side to go to college. On my mom’s side, it’s all professionals and entrepeneurs.

  • deti

    Interesting discussion about ladies fessing up about their partner counts. I know a little something about this.

    If you’d like to know what can happen when you defraud your husband about your partner count, read this:

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/09/30/hookinguprealities/marcottes-boxers-are-in-a-twist-over-nice-guys%c2%ae/comment-page-3/#comment-63076

    You will lose a lot of trust and autonomy in your marriage. If you’re fortunate, you’ll be given the opportunity to (slowly, VERY slowly) earn it back.

    Charm – “Change, to me, means that you’ve acknowledged something and move on from it. So in this case I think a person should be able to openly talk about past behavior. A lot of people want to sweep it under the rug and that makes me distrust them. If someone came to me and said “Look I slept with a bunch of people in the past for [insert honest reason], Im not proud of it, and decided to change my behavior because of XYZ”, I could respect that. I think it shows maturity through owning your shit.”

    +1. This is a hell of a lot better than hiding it and lying about it.

    The truth comes out. It always does.

    It ALWAYS does.

  • dragnet

    For the record, I’ve noticed that more intelligent and/or more educated girls tend to be sluttier or more promiscuous. Admittedly that’s purely anectodal.

    And I filled out the Vox Day survey…and didn’t realize I was supposed to anonymize myself.

    D’oh!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And I filled out the Vox Day survey…and didn’t realize I was supposed to anonymize myself.

      How intriguing. I’ll be heading over there to check your comment.

  • J

    Of course not, she has links to British newspapers with topless women on the cover.

    LOL. I once took a male blogger to task to task for cherry-picking throught the Daily Mail for “studies.” He defended the credibility of that rag to death.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jason,

    JM,

    I know you are in a relatively new relationship, but it’s been mentioned on here that you had an old one that went south in what I assume is a bad manner? I’m curious as to what happened if you don’t mind sharing, or if you want to link me to previous posts on the subject.

    I have no idea where any of those old posts might be.

    Briefly:
    Boy fell in love with girl.
    Boy got engaged to girl.
    Boy discovered that there were two dozen other boys before him.
    Boy broke engagement with girl.

  • J

    Of course more questions would follow. I’m wondering why you think that would end badly?

    I think knowing too many details of one’s SO’s prior sex life leads to obsessing about things that can’t be changed or no longer matter. And then there’s the question of how the current partner measures up. Was she prettier? Was he better in bed? What did they do together? No good comes of having those questions or answering them.

  • J

    JM-Did you break your engagement because of her number or were there additional factors?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    J

    I think that there’s just this desire on the part of some guys (this wouldn’t apply to someone like Jason, of course, but to others certainly) to know whether the woman they’re with is like them or not. “Is she the type of girl who would’ve ignored me back in the day to go have fun with guys I’ve never had respect for, or is she the type who went through similar struggles and can relate to that experience?”

    I know for me, that was the main issue. I was no longer able to respect my ex when I found out she was the first type.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    J

    The number.

  • Charm

    @Ted D

    Are you the 41 year old male version of me? Lol, we think so a like. I don’t find it odd at all that you try to interview perspective mates. In my perfect world people would come equipped with a detailed history report. Kind of like a used car. I like to be very thorough when considering dating someone. Im the kind of person where I am very self preserving so I value comfort and security first as well. This is not to say I don’t like excitement, but that will have to wait at least until all my important stuff is taken care of first. You know, I need to a stable job, somewhere to live, food to eat, a decent amount of savings before I can buy those pair of shoes that I really want.

    I really have no problem with being very up front about any and everything. I too also think the sex partner/number/history should be out of the way early on. Sure, a person can choose not to answer, but in doing so they’d better not let the door hit them on the way out. Any prospect of a relationship would end right there. Im very uncompromising about things that involve me. But Im also pretty picky about relationships anyway.

    I scan initially for compatibility. Like a damn robot. If we aren’t compatible for a good reason like differences in values, I know I wont be able to deal with it so I wont even consider the relationship. Sometimes I feel like people try to force shit in relationship only for it to fall apart in the end anyway.

    I guess were just two odd little peas in a pod.

  • purplesneakers

    For the record, I’ve noticed that more intelligent and/or more educated girls tend to be sluttier or more promiscuous. Admittedly that’s purely anectodal.

    This is actually my experience too. I think it’s because college environments are all about “sex positivity” and being PC and not judging anyone, which basically condones hooking up. And more intelligent women, if they are more school- or career-oriented, may have the mindset of “I don’t have time for a relationship!” (or “it’s so lame and girly to want a relationship!”) and therefore get into the hookup culture. Whereas girls that may go to community colleges or commute from home to school or work still have their family and co-workers to remind them of what people actually think about hooking up in the real world. I think the closed-off environment of most colleges doesn’t help.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – “I think knowing too many details of one’s SO’s prior sex life leads to obsessing about things that can’t be changed or no longer matter. And then there’s the question of how the current partner measures up. Was she prettier? Was he better in bed? What did they do together? No good comes of having those questions or answering them”

    Ok I get that. But, when I say I want/need to discuss past sexual history, I’m not looking for play by plays, LOL. I want to know how those relationships went. What kind of men did she pair up with? How did she react to them during and after the relationship? What did she learn from each encounter? I know this type of discussion is very intrusive, but if I’m looking to spend the rest of my life with this person, sharing my inner most secrets, let alone my financial future, I don’t think it is asking for too much.

    And, I would say that any woman that is embarrassed or afraid of the consequences needs to do some further self examination and soul searching. You can’t change your past, but you need to accept that other people simply may not understand your journey to where you are today, and that it is fair to allow them the chance to decide that for themselves. I’ve certainly done things I’m not particularly proud of, but I don’t even attempt to hide those facts. To me, that is a sign of learning from your mistakes. That you are not ashamed of them, but instead recognize them for what they are: mistakes that taught you something important.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Jesus Mahoney, I’m curious as to whether or not you and your girl have discussed exact numbers with each other. Would you want to talk about it? Or would you rather it be kept a mystery?

    My husband and I had this talk in the first month, as we were falling in love. I gave him the run-down and the number, and he was okay with it. He also gave me his history. Then we talked about STD testing, and we had both had clean test histories.

    I just can’t see a situation in which my number would come out months down the road and be a shock. I can’t keep a “secret” about myself. I couldn’t even keep my pregnancy to myself until 2nd trimester and had to tell some coworkers.

  • J

    JM #166

    That makes sense to me.

  • Charm

    “Is she the type of girl who would’ve ignored me back in the day to go have fun with guys I’ve never had respect for, or is she the type who went through similar struggles and can relate to that experience?”

    +1……………………………………..million :)

    I think the same about men. It makes a person feel like crap when they realize that a couple of years ago you would have been seen as the bottom of the barrel to a person.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    No. But we’ve talked about past relationships. She knows why I broke things off with my ex and while she doesn’t know details about who I’ve been with since, she knows I had that period over the summer where I just went around picking up girls. Those things she knew before we got together. I know a bit about the relationships she’s had and I’ve heard a couple of stories about weird first dates.

    In retrospect, I shouldn’t have been shocked about my ex. I was just believing what I wanted to believe.

  • Ramble

    For the record, I’ve noticed that more intelligent and/or more educated girls tend to be sluttier or more promiscuous. Admittedly that’s purely anectodal.

    This is actually my experience too. I think it’s because college environments are all about “sex positivity” and being PC and not judging anyone, which basically condones hooking up.

    Dragnet, purple

    Personally, I have found the “smart” girls in the Humanities, Econ, Law and the Liberal Arts to be considerably sluttier than the smart girls in the hard science STEM fields.

    The girls that were aspiring actresses were downright whores (in general, and relatively speaking).

  • Ramble

    “Is she the type of girl who would’ve ignored me back in the day to go have fun with guys I’ve never had respect for, or is she the type who went through similar struggles and can relate to that experience?”

    Jesus (and Charm),
    Yes, exactly. So, for instance, if some girl had racked up, say 4 guys, with those guys being the likes of LeapOfBeta, then, I am guessing most guys (here) would have little problem with that.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    J

    And I agree with you that if you were to suddenly find yourself on the dating scene after a quarter century of marriage and a man began asking about what you were doing with whom 30 years ago, that would be a red flag.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    So, for instance, if some girl had racked up, say 4 guys, with those guys being the likes of LeapOfBeta, then, I am guessing most guys (here) would have little problem with that.

    Right. I mean, if all 4 were casual, then I’d wonder about her character, but basically, right.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Charm – to be completely honest, I’ve met far more women that share my views than men. I’m good with the fact that I am an outlier among outliers because I am not only a male that is not into casual sex, but that I value things in my relationships that are not typically “male” oriented, like putting a high value on the emotional content of my sexuality.

    My issue was: once upon a time I actually believed that my outlier status made me more valuable as a LTR partner. That because I valued intimacy and emotional substance that I was a better choice for any women to invest in. The harshest truth of the red pill for me was that none of it mattered one bit. And, in a way, it made me feel like the years of struggling with keeping on the “straight and narrow” were in fact completely pointless.

    Now I realize that I didn’t do it for my SO, or anyone other than myself. Because, at the end of the day, I want to be the person that can look at themselves in the mirror and be proud of who I am, and how I got to be the person I am. My goal now is to try and understand the path other people have taken to get to the same place. My SO is a good woman; truthful, honest, loyal, and honorable. But, she didn’t take nearly the same path I did to get there, and initially that was something I had difficulty with. But, we have vastly different experiences in our early lives, and slowly I am beginning to see that many of her early choices were a direct result of the environment she came from. And, I am beginning to see how those choices, although I disagree with many, brought her to me in the state she currently is. As much as I may hate some of the things she did, she would in fact NOT be the person she is today if she hadn’t done them. Its a shitty thing to learn, and I probably should have learned it 20 years ago, but the fact that I’ve limited my romantic experiences to very few woman means I’ve never been with a person with such a different history. And, I truly didn’t realize that her sexual past would be such a big deal to me, until it was. But, I also met her before the red pill, and it was VERY difficult to ingest and internalize the messages while trying to determine if I’d made a huge mistake being with her.

    I can’t say I’m out of the woods, but I am past the doubt in our relationship. She has indeed learned and grown a great deal from the person she was in her late teens/early 20’s. I can clearly see it, and her family and friends have all but said so directly. (well, one old friend of hers actually DID say it directly. LOL) I’m still struggling with simply accepting how she could have ever been in that mental state at all. It amazes me that someone so awesome could have ever felt badly about herself. Even at the worst places in my life, I have never felt so low that self destructive behavior seemed like an improvement. But, I was never mentally, physically, or sexually abused as a child either.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    In my opinion, best thing I did in college was find a niche/subculture that had nothing to do with partying and hooking up. I was playing MMORPGs and video games a lot. My social scene was basically entirely outside of the student body.

    I actually didn’t know any girl who hooked up a lot at my college. None of the girls in the dorm I lived in first had gained a reputation, and then I lived in a singles all-female dorm in the sorority quarters, which was again very quiet. I think that helped, too.

    The girls I befriended were nerdy types who also didn’t dress up or wear makeup. We were basically invisible compared to the hot girls on campus. Men talk about the apex fallacy, but it applies to themselves. Young college guys don’t give a second look to girls that aren’t nearly as hot as their peers (the 5’s).

  • J

    I want to know how those relationships went. .. I don’t think it is asking for too much.

    I think a lot of that sort of discussion comes up naturally. People like to talk about past hurts and relationships that affected them profoundly. I would say that, although numbers were not exchanged, DH and I know the important highlights of each other’s histories.

    you need to accept that other people simply may not understand your journey to where you are today, and that it is fair to allow them the chance to decide that for themselves.

    I’m OK with that, but I would regard too many questions, or questions of a certain nature as indicative that a relationship was not worth pursuing. I’m not sure how to explain where I’d draw the line, but there is a difference between the normal assessing of relationship fitness and crazy, obsessive questions. If I felt I was on the receiving end of the latter, I’d run in the other direction.

    An example: “Have you ever cheated on your former spouse?” is a good question. It is highly pertinent to current character. “Did you get drunk and laid in 1979?” seems ridiculous at this point in my life. I wouldn’t want to judge or be judged by a random event that happened over 30 years ago. It’s not a question I would ask a guy, and I would find it an offensive question if asked of me. It would also make me wary, mostly because it indicates a lack of ability to move on from the past. Can a guy who’s obsessed with what might have happened 30 years ago let go of an arguement he had last week, or will he constantly be hitting you over the head with things he can’t forgive?

  • Charm

    @Ramble

    Yes, exactly. But I don’t think a lot of these guys that are learning game are thinking that far into the future. Right now, women like me who don’t put out early, or go to bars and get piss ass drunk and hook up are pretty much put on the back burner. But I find it funny that these guys will admit that while they just looooove sluts, they would never marry one.

    Its like a guy saying to me: “Look, you’re definitely the kind of girl I want to marry, but right now, I want to go have my fun with all those promiscuous girls. Can you wait 5 years for me to get it out of my system?”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But I don’t think a lot of these guys that are learning game are thinking that far into the future. Right now, women like me who don’t put out early, or go to bars and get piss ass drunk and hook up are pretty much put on the back burner. But I find it funny that these guys will admit that while they just looooove sluts, they would never marry one.

      It’s very, very common for girls to get not-pumped but still dumped, and it happens plenty with beta guys.

      Give me chastity and continence, but not yet.

  • Charm

    are NOT thinking that far into the future*

  • Escoffier

    I’ve had the conversation but more interesting is the one significant time that I did not have the conversation. She was older (3 yrs or so as I recall), very beautiful, had lived in France, and basically I just didn’t want to know. Because I am sure that had I known I would not have liked the answer. The whole relationship was terribly volatile for a number of reasons. The gamester point that if a girl has an alpha in her past she will never be happy with a beta I think applies to this one though I can’t be sure.

    I remember she brought the general subject up once and said that she had experience but had not been “promiscuous” (her words) but didn’t define what that word meant to her. I did not ask. I wish I remember more about that conversation, what was said, how it started, etc.

    Another funny thing that validates the game perspective. A few years after we broke up she got back in touch with me (she was 29 at the time) and it’s clear in hindsight that she was trying to see if she could re-start the relationship and make it permanent. She alluded to having had another (younger) BF in the interim but that didn’t work out. At that point I was just starting to date She Who Would Become My Wife. I had been the dumper and as attracted to this old flame as I was, I knew it was a suicidal move to get back together with her. So I didn’t. We stayed in (very) intermittent email contact after that but after I informed her of my wedding, I never heard from her again.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “Look, you’re definitely the kind of girl I want to marry, but right now, I want to go have my fun with all those promiscuous girls. Can you wait 5 years for me to get it out of my system?”

    Bingo. And this is probably the feeling that every boy gets when a woman tells him that the girls will learn or that he’ll be the boy they want to marry someday.

  • J

    Men talk about the apex fallacy, but it applies to themselves. Young college guys don’t give a second look to girls that aren’t nearly as hot as their peers (the 5′s).

    Cosigned. It’s struck me from the first time I read a manosphere blog that a lot of male misery could be solved if guys lowered their physical standards a bit. I made the mistake of mentioning at CH that plain women are invisible to most men and was told that I was talking nonsense. A guy simply is unable to lower his standards because, if he can’t get an erection, the game is over. I can empathize. However, I imagine that there’s some hyperbole in there too. At any rate, I’d hate to be a male 4 who can only get hard for a female 8 or better. That’s gotta be lonely.

  • Charm

    Oh fuck, it was right the first time. Lol

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Oh fuck, it was right the first time. Lol

    It’s a good thing you don’t smoke pot… You’d be lost beyond hope. lol

  • Ramble

    But I find it funny that these guys will admit that while they just looooove sluts, they would never marry one.

    Its like a guy saying to me: “Look, you’re definitely the kind of girl I want to marry, but right now, I want to go have my fun with all those promiscuous girls. Can you wait 5 years for me to get it out of my system?”

    Charm, what is funny about that?

    If you don’t want to marry a guy who banged a slut or two, then, fine. Perfectly understandable.

    But, he can not afford a family at 19 and his fertility will not be declining at 26, so, he should, hopefully, be expected to live a “youthful” life.

    That doesn’t mean he should waste away in “The House of the Rising Sun”, but a little fun should be expected.

    Also, I am guessing that you do not want a man that feels like he missed out and now, as he is married to you, regrets it.

    I am not saying that guys should be seeking out sluts. Guys, and girls, should live their lives as they see fit.

  • Ramble

    It’s very, very common for girls to get not-pumped but still dumped, and it happens plenty with beta guys.

    They have heard, and they can see, that there is plenty of fish in the sea, but have gotten to taste so little of it. So, instead of putting a (proverbial promise) ring on it, they go hunting.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      They have heard, and they can see, that there is plenty of fish in the sea, but have gotten to taste so little of it. So, instead of putting a (proverbial promise) ring on it, they go hunting.

      Yes, and I think it makes sense. I am not blaming guys – the incentives drive beta behaviors too.

  • Charm

    @Ted

    See thats what makes me sad about the whole thing. I have a tendency to project how I see the world and interact with it onto other people. Im very conscious and aware of the world around me. Im very aware of the reasons I engage in certain behaviors and not others, or why I choose to do certain things. I am very much into holding myself to a standard, and when I realize other people don’t do the same/haven’t much thought about it–it kind of disappoints me.

    I have a hard time of taking people as the are when its very different than I naturally am. Its because I can’t fathom having just not having thought about it. When people say “I don’t know, I haven’t really thought about it. I just did it.” I sort of lose faith in people. Its like, is that it? Really? You didn’t think about it? As you can see Im not very accepting. I try to be but it really grates on me. I still haven’t accepted that a lot of people just don’t think like I do. Im still searching for someone who understands.

    @Jesus

    People say that shit because they don’t know what it feels like to have someone tell you “its okay, you’ll be number 2 to those guys”. This is why I always root for the underdog. I want them to get in shape, gain self confidence, get established in their career and reach a very high point in their lives THEN ignore the hell out of the women that wouldn’t have paid them any mind when they were “losers”.

    Betas boys should ignore the hell out of those ex-hot party girls once they age off the alphas radar and marry and nice beta girl that got ignored in her early 20s as well.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    For the record, I have no problem with this kind of “deception.” It’s just sensible given the history of the sexual double standard and feminism’s attempt to eradicate it. It may be unfortunate for women, but your approach is probably the best way to get to the truth, and I think all men deserve that.

    I don’t consider it a deception is mostly creating an atmosphere for the truth like a psychologist I mean if the truth is “I actually just dated a couple of guys” the relationship will continue going the same way. Also finding out a deal breaker is not the same as judging. You can decide that person is lovely just not for you…I might be hamsterizing this though :p

    What can I say, my own experience and observations don’t always square with the red pill stuff, at least not to the same degree. As you say, most of the young men I know in relationships are beta guys, and I’ve seen many young women with broken hearts over them. The mythical alpha is just that.

    Alpha is like a joker card you can use it for everytime a woman has strong feelings for a man. The guy could objectevely by plain, common, nerdy or whatever but if she couldn’t get over him fast he was HER Alpha so that continues the concept. There is not a scientific measurable definition of Alpha for people into Game so anything works, YMMV.

    Its like a guy saying to me: “Look, you’re definitely the kind of girl I want to marry, but right now, I want to go have my fun with all those promiscuous girls. Can you wait 5 years for me to get it out of my system?”

    Cosign this.
    “Can you wait and hope I don’t get a horrible STD disease a kid or two and a couple of crazy exes that will make our life miserable and of course don’t fall in love with anyone in the interim while I have all the sex I can master in the shortest period of time with women that are not at all like you?”
    Stupid the woman that falls for this crap, though.

  • Sassy6519

    Is she the type of girl who would’ve ignored me back in the day to go have fun with guys I’ve never had respect for, or is she the type who went through similar struggles and can relate to that experience?”

    Jesus (and Charm),
    Yes, exactly. So, for instance, if some girl had racked up, say 4 guys, with those guys being the likes of LeapOfBeta, then, I am guessing most guys (here) would have little problem with that.

    Hm. I guess this ties into the idea of men wanting to be “the best” men in the lives of their women.

    This seems like it would reinforce hypergamy a bit. If a woman has high value to land a high value man, but the relationship fails, should she be required to only pursue men of equal or higher status to that man? If she doesn’t, she runs the risk of upsetting any man she tries to date who might not be of equal status to her former partner.

    For example, if I’ve dated a popular jock (which I haven’t), would I be penalized later by men of lower value for dating them?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    But, he can not afford a family at 19 and his fertility will not be declining at 26, so, he should, hopefully, be expected to live a “youthful” life.

    That doesn’t mean he should waste away in “The House of the Rising Sun”, but a little fun should be expected.

    Also, I am guessing that you do not want a man that feels like he missed out and now, as he is married to you, regrets it.

    I have mixed feelings about this. I agree that everybody should live life as he or she sees fit. And don’t “regret” the bit of hooking up I did last year (regrets are a waste of time). I think it’s helped me to work through a number of problems I was dealing with at the time. And I don’t think I’m a bad person because of it.

    Yet, idk. Part of it felt very lousy. I didn’t like the “ONS” women and I just felt bad for the other ones because (while I never misled anyone) they were expecting more than just sex. It made me remember one of the reasons I didn’t sleep around in college. Part of it was because access wasn’t easy, but another part was that as much as I like to fuck, I like relationships. I wanted someone with whom I could bond. It pained me back then to find out that this or that girl I thought was cute and nice had slept around with this one or that one or had a reputation or even just made out with some ass hat or another. The more I heard that type of thing, the more depressed I got. I didn’t want that with a girl and I didn’t want a girl who did that.

    I *am* a bit of an idealist when it comes to love, but I like that about me. I lost touch with that over the summer.

    I guess my point is that it’s fine if guys want to use game to sleep around, as long as they aren’t deceitful about it, but it makes me a bit sad to know that so many people are losing hold of their ideals–both men and women.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Charm,

    Betas boys should ignore the hell out of those ex-hot party girls once they age off the alphas radar and marry and nice beta girl that got ignored in her early 20s as well.

    lol. +1

  • Charm

    @Ramble

    No. What I don’t get is why you haven’t “lived a youthful life” if you haven’t slept with a bunch of people. Is that seriously it? Why is that the only thing that equals happiness to so many people?

    It seems that so many men and women have their eyes pressed against the glass envying the life that other people around them are living. Its seems people don’t even consider whether or not THEY actually want something or if they are just trying to fit in with the crowd. Men talk so much crap about how all women follow other womens behaviors, but can’t the same be said for men?

    I can understand men desiring sex with different women, but I dont get how people can sleep around with girls they don’t much respect and would never consider anything long term with and still look at themselves in the mirror. How does that work?

    I know the marrying age has been pushed back considerably, and Im not saying people should be hunkering down in their early 20s and never experience anything else, but when people believe that they can bounce from STR to STR and then all of a sudden be ready for a LTR or marriage is a bit ridiculous.

    Ultimately I don’t get why sex has become the end all be all. It is so much harder to find a person you are compatible with, that understands you, that is reliable, and loyal and devoted to you. Its so much harder to find someone that gets you. Sex on the other hand can be bought technically and is sold everyday.

    But then again Im demisexual and female so I naturally don’t identify with the urge to want to screw random people and be legitimately upset if I wasn’t able to. But this again is because Im attracted to who a person is, while sex is just apart of the bonus pack.

    Maybe Im projecting though. Its one of my vices.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    If a woman has high value to land a high value man, but the relationship fails, should she be required to only pursue men of equal or higher status to that man? If she doesn’t, she runs the risk of upsetting any man she tries to date who might not be of equal status to her former partner.

    For example, if I’ve dated a popular jock (which I haven’t), would I be penalized later by men of lower value for dating them?

    Hm. Idk. I guess that depends. If you consider the subsequent man “lower value” then the man should run.

    I wouldn’t have a problem with a woman who dated a popular jock. I mean, unless the popular jock was a total ass hole. In which case, I’d ask about it, because I’d want to know why she spent X amount of time dating an ass hat.

  • Esau

    Hope at 182: The girls I befriended were nerdy types who also didn’t dress up or wear makeup. We were basically invisible compared to the hot girls on campus. Men talk about the apex fallacy, but it applies to themselves. Young college guys don’t give a second look to girls that aren’t nearly as hot as their peers (the 5′s).

    Sorry but this doesn’t scan. Dressing up or down is not an inborn feature of a person, it’s a choice. Women who hide or destroy their sex appeal by dowdy unflattering dress, no hair care, no decoration, reserved and quiet manner, etc., are basically announcing “Don’t look at me, don’t desire me, don’t think of me as a sexual being.” She’s made herself invisible by choice, and of course guys are going to get the message and go elsewhere for action — they’re only doing what she asked for.

    Yeah, maybe it’s possible that a dowdy girl who hides herself away really does want Prince Charming to come rescue her with his attention, but there’s really no way for a guy to know that if all she does is broadcast “Don’t look at me” all the time.

  • Charm

    I *am* a bit of an idealist when it comes to love, but I like that about me. I lost touch with that over the summer.

    Me too! Under all my cold hard logic I am actually a deep romantic. But I feel like other people don’t think about it like I do so I keep it hidden. Though, I haven’t lost touch with it thankfully and regardless if other people understand it, Im going to continue to idealize it. Small, well though out gestures of love get me every time.

    I really appreciated your story at 197. You seem like a really good person. Thanks!

  • Ramble

    What I don’t get is why you haven’t “lived a youthful life” if you haven’t slept with a bunch of people.

    Charm, I am not saying that that must be a part of that definition. Plenty of people have “sensible” love lives throughout their youths, feel like they definitely enjoyed life (or found it fulfilling) and regret nothing. But, for some others, they will want a little action.

    It seems that so many men and women have their eyes pressed against the glass envying the life that other people around them are living.

    Envy is a perfectly natural emotion, obviously. Almost everyone will experience at least a little envy. If I could put words in your mouth, I would say that it depends on what you are envying.

    Do you envy Kim Kardashian? Or that person with the lovely family?

    In once case, you would likely look down on the person. In the other, your heart might go out to them.

    Men talk so much crap about how all women follow other womens behaviors, but can’t the same be said for men?

    There is a difference between “herd” behaviour and genuine jealousy. My high school did not have a hockey team (and local teams were scarce) and I was genuinely jealous of those that got to play. There was no herd mindset involved, or wanting to emulate someone. I loved (and love) hockey and desperately wanted to play a lot more of it.

    Some guys may simply want to mimic the behaviour of some wanna-be rockstar that is swimming in p*ssy, but others will honestly be jealous, or envious (I am not sure which word is more appropriate), of their access to pretty girls.

    Again, you do NOT need to marry those guys. You should definitely figure out exactly what you want and them pursue it.

    …but when people believe that they can bounce from STR to STR and then all of a sudden be ready for a LTR or marriage is a bit ridiculous.

    No argument here.

    Ultimately I don’t get why sex has become the end all be all.

    You know, I don’t think it has. I understand what pop culture so often shows, but, I think that there is a large minority, maybe even majority, that is very open to traditional ideas and ideals.

  • Ramble

    “In once case” -> In one case

    [woops]

  • Charm

    Sorry but this doesn’t scan. Dressing up or down is not an inborn feature of a person, it’s a choice. Women who hide or destroy their sex appeal by dowdy unflattering dress, no hair care, no decoration, reserved and quiet manner, etc., are basically announcing “Don’t look at me, don’t desire me, don’t think of me as a sexual being.” She’s made herself invisible by choice, and of course guys are going to get the message and go elsewhere for action — they’re only doing what she asked for.

    I think this pretty spot on. Though I’d like to also add that a lot of men in college wouldn’t much notice a girl that was dressed femininely because the attention whoring girls all dress ultra sexy in very short skirts and high heels. Thats the dress code is “sexy” in college. Women are literally throwing their vagina out into the streets in some of those dresses. One girl came into my job to get food one night after drinking and if she made one bad move you would have saw her vagina. The dress literally an inch past her vagina. My male coworkers of course noticed immediately and were hoping she’d stumble so they could see it.

    A girl in a skirt that is just above the knee gets no love. Sexy sells in college, not femininity. Men don’t start looking for that until later on. Its all about instant gratification I guess.

  • Ramble

    A girl in a skirt that is just above the knee gets no love. Sexy sells in college, not femininity. Men don’t start looking for that until later on.

    Unless they live in a society where they are unlikely to be surrounded by whores.

    Again, Slut Shaming.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Esau, yes, not wearing makeup or dressing up is a choice, but it’s a choice that signals certain character traits, like being low maintenance and being less into fashion, shoes and handbags. Such a girl has more “beta” traits than “alpha” traits. So while guys complain young girls don’t appreciate “beta” traits in guys, they also don’t appreciate “beta” traits in their same-age peers. That was the core of what I stated, and you have not refuted it.

    I managed to look okay without makeup or expensive clothing, because I usually had very long hair and kept myself thin. I still didn’t get attention from men, which kept my ego in check and made me better relationship material in the long run. I was just fine with it, because I was busy with school, work and nerdy pursuits. I didn’t care for the guys who chased after the alpha girls, just as many guys here say they don’t care for the girls who chased after the alpha guys.

    The male apex fallacy is that all young girls chased or wanted to chase alpha guys — it’s just not true, at least not us less glamorous girls.

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    Charm,
    For me, it has never come down to shaming people for enjoying sex. It is obviously human nature to enjoy it. It is what we were designed for. What gets me is the risks men and women will take for a sexual release. You’d risk pregnancy and an STI with man partners over and over again just because you enjoy sex? That seems primitive. Animals do shit like this. Human beings have the mental capacity to see how this behavior could possibly work against them in the form of an STI and a unwanted child.

    I get what you’re saying. I guess I’m thinking in terms of people being wise enough to take contraceptives. Of course they aren’t 100% full proof and not all people use them for whatever reason.

    If you like sex then find one partner and fuck their brains out. It doesn’t need to be done with a dozen people. The fact that people get do it with a ton of people means they get bored easily and will likely leave you once they get tired of you. I enjoy sex ONLY because Im doing it with someone I care about deeply. The orgasm is just the happy ending. If all I wanted was an orgasm well…they make stuff for that, no?

    In agreement 100%.

  • SayWhaat

    Esau, I disagree. I don’t dress slutty, but I don’t dress like a nun, either. I would say my style of dress is classy with maybe a hint of sensuality. I am by no means unattractive. And I was STILL passed over by a lot of guys.

    The one thing I am still working on is having a more unique “style”, but that has nothing to do with the amount of attention I receive from the way I currently dress.

  • Charm

    @Ramble

    I don’t too much envy other people. Ive done it in the past, but I’ve learned to pinpoint the exact reason that it comes over me. Usually its because of something I don’t even want and I nip it in the bud right there. I dislike like envy because envy gets you nowhere. I tend to admire people. If someone has something I want or has gotten to a place that I want to be, I respect and admire them not envy and hate them for it.

    Yes, I admire people with lovely families. I also admire people who have been happily devoted to their spouse for decades. I want to be like them one day. But this is probably because Im extremely monogamous and I want the family I never got to have as a kid.

  • OffTheCuff

    Seriously, it’s like guys almost treat it like a personal insult or a slight against them somehow. Can people not change?

    Generally, no. Ask yourself the same question when a sex offender moves into your neighborhood, and you have kids. Are you going to bake him cookies or assume he’s a predator? Can people not change?
    Charm: “I’d also like to add that promiscuous people are trying to have their cake and eat it too.”

    Exactly. If you don’t regret what you did and own it, then it’s merely changing tactics because you’ve decided the new tactics produce a better result, rather than actually realizing what you did was wrong. Cue the “Yeah, did bad stuff, but that makes me who I am today” speech. No thanks. And this isn’t just limited to sex.

    JM: “Is she the type of girl who would’ve ignored me back in the day to go have fun with guys I’ve never had respect for, or is she the type who went through similar struggles and can relate to that experience?”

    This is a GREAT way of saying it. My wife was a band-geek like I was. If I would have met her in high school, we would have gotten along perfectly.

    Hope: “We were basically invisible compared to the hot girls on campus. Men talk about the apex fallacy, but it applies to themselves.”

    That’s not true, at all. We generally find those plainer women attractive – if she started rubbing on him, the boner test would likely pass with flying colors. Remember, whether we find you attractive is VERY different than whether the risk/reward of an approach is calculated to be “GO!”. Don’t ever conflate the two.

    There were a couple of pretty fat girls I went out with in college. I never escalated hard, possibly because I had sensed it would severely damage my own status – the risk was too high. Unfortunately I was a bit too risk-averse, but it was a RISK decision, not an attraction decision.

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    Hope,
    The male apex fallacy is that all young girls chased or wanted to chase alpha guys — it’s just not true, at least not us less glamorous girls.

    I’ve been thinking about this myself. Guys say to girls that it’s not that males aren’t interested in them, it’s just that they ignore the ones interested in them for the alphas. But don’t guys do the same when focusing on the hot/pretty/good-looking girls? They say guys have a “wider range” of attraction, but just like girls, I’m sure that they aren’t going to go for any female interested in them.

    I think that both sexes are basically in the same boat when it comes to people they’re attracted to, not being attracted to them. Of course I’m not a guy, so maybe they’re right when they say that it’s different for them.

    Sorry for the slight OT (probably more suitable for the “Smart Girls” post lol.

  • OffTheCuff

    Oh, by fat, I don’t mean your female definition of “has some small amount of fat somewhere”, I mean the objective “medically obese”, as in 200+.

  • Ramble

    I dislike like envy because envy gets you nowhere.

    I am not sure about that. I am willing to bet that many men throughout history that worked to provide a better life for their families were driven, in part, by envy.

    ==========================
    Why does my family struggle so much even though I am working 120 hours a week at the farm. And George, George doesn’t work nearly as many hours as I do, but can always feed his family and gets to spend more time with them, instead of out in the field all day, every day.
    ==========================

    Envy (or Jealousy), amongst other drivers, at work.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Charm,

    I really appreciated your story at 197. You seem like a really good person. Thanks!

    No problem. Thank you, too.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    OffTheCuff, so you were attracted to the overweight girls, or you weren’t? Or was it about the hit to your status if you dated them?

    Anyway, I’m not saying men should be obligated to be attracted to girls they consider 4s or 5s, but that they tend to focus their attention on the 7s and above, and extrapolate their behavior to the rest of women (apex -> generalization).

  • Charm

    @Ramble

    I read somewhere ( can’t remember the place) and a guy said that he used to watch porn and it was fun at first but he got tired of it. Why? Because he thought it was too easy. There was no challenge. He quit and found more pleasure in watching women in public and trying to figure out what they looked like naked. Lol. I found it funny.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Renee,

    I think that both sexes are basically in the same boat when it comes to people they’re attracted to, not being attracted to them. Of course I’m not a guy, so maybe they’re right when they say that it’s different for them.

    That could be. I’d advise anybody–male or female–to steer clear of relationships with people who feel they’re “lowering” their standards to in order to be more realistic about who they can pull.

  • Escoffier

    Skirts just above the knee are hot.

  • Ramble

    Hope,
    …they tend to focus their attention on the 7s and above, and extrapolate their behavior to the rest of women…

    Especially in the Roissy-sphere.

  • Ramble

    Skirts just above the knee are hot.

    And more than a few below the knee as well.

    Class and Feminine style are hot.

  • Charm

    Ask yourself the same question when a sex offender moves into your neighborhood, and you have kids. Are you going to bake him cookies or assume he’s a predator? Can people not change?

    Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaappppp!!!!

    But wait, then you have all the people proclaiming that sex offenders actually hurt other people and ruin lives. Can a promiscuous partner not hurt people and ruin lives by deciding after marriage and kids to be unfaithful because they’ve grown bored with sex with their spouse?

  • Escoffier

    Between a woman dressed conservatively (but in a girly way), light makup, no surgery, natural long(ish) hair OTOH and another in 4″ heels, fake tits, acres of cleavage, frosted hair, lots of makeup, I will take the former every time. No contest. Even if you tone down the slut attire I will still always take the classy girl every time.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Thanks for getting what I mean, Ramble.

    Fun fact: skirts just above the knee are actually too risque for Mormon girls. It would not pass the BYU honor code. :P

  • Ramble

    Escoffier, I am right there with you, other than the heels. She doesn’t need to be on stilts, but heels can be very sexy.

  • Ramble

    Hope, the one thing that I might change in your statement would be:

    It is not, so much, attractive versus plain, but not-fat versus fat.

    I do think that the Roissy-sphere extrapolates from the fat as well, but not nearly as much.

  • Escoffier

    On the question of the 1-10 scale, I am of two minds. I agree with Roissy that as a general matter, men agree on who ranks what. If you poll a cross section of men (all races, income levels, education status, etc.) and your sample size is large enough, they will almost all rank girls within one point of what other guys are saying. So, beauty is not totally subjective. Indeed, the extent to which it’s not subjective is far greater than the extent to which it is.

    That said, there are plenty of outliers, guys whose tastes don’t perfectly align with the Maxim ideal. There aren’t nearly enough of them to overturn the generalized male preference, but presumably there are enough of them to go around for the non-7s who want them.

  • Escoffier

    I have nothing against heels but they can get absurd. 3″ is a pretty high heel, and I find that even less than that can still look great. 4″ is just slutty.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ramble, that is true. A lot of girls would shoot up 2 or more points if they lost the excess weight.

    My husband briefly dated a girl he met in a video game who did the MySpace angles in her photographs, and when they met in person he was rather surprised, because she was huge.

    The manosphere also talks about attractiveness in women of similar weight levels. I think those differences can be attributed to hormone’s effects on facial features. The more estrogen, the more attractive the female face. There have been studies done on this:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4396230.stm

    Most guys would consider the girl on the left as pretty, and the girl on the right as plain. Incidentally, makeup masks this effect.

    Let’s be honest here. Who would most guys pay most attention to in most cases? The girl on the left.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    The girl on the left definitely.

  • purplesneakers

    Hope, the girl on the left also has a wider face than the girl on the right, who has more of a long face. The left one probably has a wider dental arch, which is affected by the mother’s nutrition before conception and during the pregnancy, as well as the length of breastfeeding and nutrition up to age five (Weston A. Price’s research covers this). It’s actually amazing how much dental development affects facial attractiveness.

  • OffTheCuff

    Hope: “so you were attracted to the overweight girls, or you weren’t? Or was it about the hit to your status if you dated them?”

    Sure, I was attracted enough. I just didn’t see them as girlfriend material, is the best I could say. At the time, I was a single-ladder, courtship-minded guy *only* looking for a girlfriend, so I couldn’t do anything casual with them, as that would be abusing women (in my beta-trained mind).

    I may have to rethink my position as a lower-beta. I’ve probably turned down 15-20 women who were throwing themselves at me. Some of them were 9’s.

    My wife was #1, mostly because she did everything at the right *pace* and it felt so effortless. No woman has ever come close to that.

  • http://Awesomeathlete.blogspot.com Awesome Athlete

    Thanks for posting this, it is very thought provoking.

  • Ramble

    The more estrogen, the more attractive the female face.

    You don’t need to convince me, I can easily believe that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The more estrogen, the more attractive the female face.

      This makes me wonder about something. There is some indication that female promiscuity is linked to testosterone levels. I wonder if a woman with a high estrogen face is less likely to be promiscuous then. Maybe the increasing androgyny in models and actresses is a direct result of the sexual revolution. Maybe more masculine women are more slutty, and therefore considered hotter. After all, they’re the ones having most of the sex…

      Just thinking aloud here…

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Charm – ” I am very much into holding myself to a standard, and when I realize other people don’t do the same/haven’t much thought about it–it kind of disappoints me”

    Well, I don’t expect much from “people” in general BECAUSE I learned early on that most simply do not think about much of anything, let alone their own motivations for behaving in any specific manner.

    I, like you, tend to examine just about everything I do and feel, to understand WHY I am doing or feeling that way, and if I like that result. I don’t do it as much now that I’m older, but I was almost ruthlessly self-examining for a couple multi-year periods in my life. I developed that ability partly to protect my “inner” self, because also like you, underneath all the INTJ logic and thinking, I have what I like to call my “gooey emotional center”. Because when I was younger I was so easily influenced by emotion, I began filtering everything through the “logic layer” to minimize my exposure to being hurt. It works very well, but obviously it also prevented me from learning from “experience” because I simply didn’t do a lot of the stupid things normal young people do.

    And, that puts me at a bit of a disadvantage actually. Because, when I end up with people that did indeed do lots of stupid things, I have issues relating to them. But, that is clearly my issue, and one that I’m working to correct. ;)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jason,

    Make them feel comfortable, like it’s nbd and that I’m nonjudgemental. It’s amazing what you can get anyone to reveal by taking this attitude. Yeah, in reality what I am doing is deceptive, but it’s been the best tactic for my own ends.

    Thing is, it’s really not deceptive. I don’t think of it as judgment anymore. If a woman has slept around, that’s fine–I’m not going to hate her or condemn her for it. She’s just not a good match for some men. It’s more of an evaluation than a judgment.

  • Ramble

    Maybe the increasing androgyny in models and actresses is a direct result of the sexual revolution.

    Roissy (I think) once had a post on the hardening/masculinization of female starlets.

    A composite was made of the 10 biggest female stars of the 1930s and a composite of the 10 biggest of the 2000s and the more recent composite looked much “harder”.

    There could be all sorts of reasons for this, including things like hormones in our food.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    This makes me wonder about something. There is some indication that female promiscuity is linked to testosterone levels. I wonder if a woman with a high estrogen face is less likely to be promiscuous then. Maybe the increasing androgyny in models and actresses is a direct result of the sexual revolution. Maybe more masculine women are more slutty, and therefore considered hotter. After all, they’re the ones having most of the sex…

    I’ve wondered about this too.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “I have nothing against heels but they can get absurd. 3″ is a pretty high heel, and I find that even less than that can still look great. 4″ is just slutty.”

    My SO rocks out 5″ heels on occasion, and to be honest I find them to be VERY attractive. Of course, with those on, she is just slightly taller than I am! But, that makes no difference if we aren’t standing… ;)

    Not that I’m arguing. 5″ heels are definitely hitting “slutty” territory, but I won’t lie and say I don’t think they are hot. Lets just say I like the way they look, and they way they feel when they drag across my, umm, backside. If I have a fetish, it is heels in bed. I’ve offered to buy her shoes before, and she turned them down because she wouldn’t wear them in public. My answer? “I don’t care! As long as you can get to the bed in them, I’m good with it.”

  • OffTheCuff

    Hope: “[men] tend to focus their attention on the 7s and above, and extrapolate their behavior to the rest of women (apex -> generalization).”

    I don’t think this is the case. I’ve never hit on “hot” 9’s and the like, not even once. If this were the case, I would know lots of average men who got blown out many times by super-hot babes. But that’s not the case – we’d go to a bar in college, have fun by ourselves, and nobody would hit on anyone, really.

    What you see is probably this – the more attractive the man is, the more likely he’s going to focus attention on women. Lots of them, and the most attractive ones. So, yes, it’s true, those women will get the most attention. It’s from the guys who aren’t afraid to approach lots of women, because they have success with lots of women, because they’re on the top.

    The lower-level guys like me were more risk-averse. We’re simply waiting around and not asking enough. That is our fault. Those guys don’t need to focus lower, they just need to become less risk averse, and APPROACH!

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted

    Lets just say I like the way they look, and they way they feel when they drag across my, umm, backside.

    lmao.

    T
    M
    I

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan – “I wonder if a woman with a high estrogen face is less likely to be promiscuous then.”

    I’ve actually wondered about this since taking the red pill. It could be that the primary difference between the more and less promiscuous members of the human race is body chemistry. We all know that high T men tend to want lots of sex, but what about women? Does estrogen or a lack of it induce similar desires? I remember doing some quick ‘net searches, but I couldn’t find much on this subject, so its possible that little if any research has been published on this.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    JM – Just trying to keep it real man. I’ve often wondered if my “shoe thing” is a result of my early introductions into porn as a young man. It used to be pretty common to see the women in porn wearing heels, and I distinctly remember seeing Traci Lords (dating myself much?) doing her thing in high heels and thinking “now THAT is hot stuff!”

    Is that still common? I really don’t watch much porn these days, and couldn’t tell you the name of any current porn actor/actress to save my life. LOL

  • Lokland

    @ Ramble and others

    On the intelligent = promiscuity thing.

    I’m a STEM man myself. I found most of the women I work with/have worked with/studied with are/were typically good girls who studied hard and had an LTR through uni or were single and didn’t sleep around.
    When I was sleeping around 4/5 were from our business school with the occasional teacher and lib arts thrown in. Thats probably just selection bias though.

    @ purplesneakers, Hope
    I’m trying to look at the faces and describe the differences. I can see the one on the left is more feminine but what about tha facial structure actual does that? Is it the wider face = more feminine or something?

    @Sassy

    “If a woman has high value to land a high value man, but the relationship fails, should she be required to only pursue men of equal or higher status to that man? If she doesn’t, she runs the risk of upsetting any man she tries to date who might not be of equal status to her former partner.”

    What should be required of her is irrelevant.
    She should do whatever the hell she wants.
    She should not expect men to accept her past, hence what she should do is irrelevant.
    Men are the ones who decide who gets the relationship with them not the woman. What she thinks she deserves or who she decides to date are irrelevant to whether or not those people will accept her.

    As for whether or not I would, it depends on her defintion of high value.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted. I was just fucking with you.

    Heels can be sexy, though I couldn’t tell you what’s common or not in porn.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    OTC – “The lower-level guys like me were more risk-averse. We’re simply waiting around and not asking enough. That is our fault. Those guys don’t need to focus lower, they just need to become less risk averse, and APPROACH!”

    +1 – guilty as charged as well. :P

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    JM – its all good. I know it was an “overshare”, but in light of where I’m posting and where the conversations can go, I didn’t think it was over the top. ;)

    Yeah, I just don’t watch porn anymore. But, I have two teenage boys at home, so my guess is if I ever want to, I can just ask them for access to their “stash”. lol

  • Lokland

    @ Charm

    I spend a goodly portion of myday on an uni campus. Most chicks are not dressed like hoes. They are wearing leggings as pants which is horrid because 90% don’t have the ass to make it work. (Hungry hungry hippo jokes were common in my social circle in undergrad. I feel like an ass now.)
    As for clubs, (or frat parties if your American and your gov will give you guns and body armor but not beer), hoes and sluts galore.

    @ Ted, Charm

    Love heels.

    My fiance likes to rock out her 4″ heels on occasion, typically at my request. Gorgeous to see her ass go from beautiful to Aphrodite like. She also wears 2-3” heels on a daily basis.

    Anyway, heels aren’t inherently slutty IMO. When coupled with slutty clothes then they become slutty.

  • Sassy6519

    I have nothing against heels but they can get absurd. 3″ is a pretty high heel, and I find that even less than that can still look great. 4″ is just slutty.”

    My SO rocks out 5″ heels on occasion, and to be honest I find them to be VERY attractive. Of course, with those on, she is just slightly taller than I am! But, that makes no difference if we aren’t standing… ;)

    This is the one thing I have never been able to do. I love the way high heels look, but I can’t wear heels higher than 2 1/2 inches. I was born with lower arches in my feet, so it’s excruciatingly painful to wear higher heels than that. I wish I could though.

  • Lokland

    @ OTC, Ted

    90% of my problem went away when I got over the approach.

    50 a day at a mall/club in another city 2 times a week for a month cures anything.

  • Charm

    @Ted D

    Lol. It makes sense now. You’re an INTJ and Im a ENTJ though I score pretty low on extroversion so I come off as a bit of an introvert. See, two peas in a pod. I think the whole standards holding happens alot with TJs especially NTJs. I literally feel like I cannot lower them, but from conversing with other NTs I’ve heard that the world will beat it out of you. I score pretty high in the NT and moderately in the J so I doubt Ill be swayed. A lot of NTJ men and women have very difficult times finding mates because they wont consider anyone who doesnt meet their standard, which is generally why they do well when they get into relationships with each other.

    Though, naturally NTJ types are attracted to each other. Just like INFP/Js tend to do well when they date the same type.

  • Ramble

    I’m a STEM man myself. I found most of the women I work with/have worked with/studied with are/were typically good girls who studied hard and had an LTR through uni or were single and didn’t sleep around.

    My very basic theory is this: the more logical the girl, and the more she deals with producing objectively correct results, the harder it is for her hamster to get started, or for her to take her hamster seriously.

    I have also never met a STEM girl that was particularly Feminist…or even Feminist leaning. But, the sample size is not huge.

  • Charm

    @Lokland

    I like heels too. Though Im already tall at 5’11” so I don’t wear them. I walk all over a huge campus all day so it would be ridiculous to do so. Though, I plan doing so regardless if it pushes me from the “shes pretty tall” to the “oh god shes a giant” category.

  • pvw

    Skirts just above the knee are hot.

    And more than a few below the knee as well.

    Class and Feminine style are hot.

    Heels?

    My reply:

    Now that spring is coming and I’m thinking about my fun spring routines, ie., shopping for a new dress for Easter and possibly Pentecost, I recall previous years and the looks and compliments I got when I went all out for the occasion–hat and gloves with a flowered dress for Easter; bright colored dress in Pentecost colors, ie., red/orange/pink. Dress/skirts at the knee or below it, heels about 2″-3″ high.

    I remember one of the male parishioners complimented me, saying it was a nice look. I laughed, saying, I’m dressed the way your mom did back in 1960!

  • Charm

    My very basic theory is this: the more logical the girl, and the more she deals with producing objectively correct results, the harder it is for her hamster to get started, or for her to take her hamster seriously.

    I have also never met a STEM girl that was particularly Feminist…or even Feminist leaning. But, the sample size is not huge.

    Your theory would be correct sir. Im not in stem field but I am very logical and Im not entirely certain if I have a hamster, or if it runs, but if it did start up I’d probably laugh at it. Its seems illogical to follow your hamster around. Lol…….

    Though the real kicker is that logical women usually aren’t seen as being that attractive or approachable either. I get called “cold”. Like I don’t have emotionals or something. It seems that being rational is very off putting to a lot of men my age. They all want the flighty, emotionally driven girls. So in that case, they can get the hamsters that come with them.

  • deti

    “I wonder if a woman with a high estrogen face is less likely to be promiscuous then.”

    I would think you’d be looking at more than just face. Probably:

    Higher T/lower estrogen woman:
    –higher waist-hip ratio
    –lower voice pitch
    –flat ass
    –higher ratio of second hand digit to fourth hand digit
    –prominent mandible

    Lower T/high estrogen woman:
    –lower WHR
    –higher voice pitch
    –curvy ass
    –lower 2D/4D ratio
    –less prominent mandible

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      I don’t know why, but I cracked up at your choice of the term “prominent mandible.” As I recall, Roissy said those women are usually the daughters of alphas, which makes sense. Another reason to marry a beta guy :)

  • Escoffier

    White gloves on girls are hot.

    That has to qualify as a fetish because no one does that any more.

  • Passer_By

    @lokland
    “50 a day at a mall/club in another city 2 times a week for a month cures anything.”

    I guess getting 50 lashes a couple times a week would eventually make my back numb to the floggings, but I’m not sure I’m game for it. :)

  • Ramble

    It seems that being rational is very off putting to a lot of men my age. They all want the flighty, emotionally driven girls.

    They want to bang and you are not signalling that you are a slut.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      They want to bang and you are not signalling that you are a slut.

      This explains the not pumped but still dumped phenomenon most of the time. I know it can be hard for young guys, but it’s a long haul for young women who aren’t slutty as well.

  • Passer_By

    @ramble
    “I have also never met a STEM girl that was particularly Feminist…or even Feminist leaning. But, the sample size is not huge.”

    Back before I went to law school and was still an EE (late ’80s), the few women EEs in my company were pretty hard core about it – including an office mate of mine. She’s was otherwise a wonderful gal, and we got along swimmingly, but she was pretty sensitive on those issues. It may be that when some of them came up through school, they had reason to be. And 1980s office ediquette still had a bit of the 1970s raunch to it at times, even at a company where everybody was pretty straight laced. I can only imagine how it was in ordinary (non-tech) companies.

    But when I was in school studying engineering, none of the women (who were few and far between) were like that. On the other hand, all of them seemed dependent on the guys (to varying degrees) to make it through the harder (i.e., more mathematically intense) classes, so they probably came to appreciate them pretty quickly.

  • Charm

    @Ramble

    Lol. You’re probably correct.

    @Escoffier

    I want to bring the glove wearing trend back. I absolutely love it. I dont think its a fetish. I think its rather lovely and very feminine.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    OffTheCuff, that would make you quite the outlier, able to be turned on by clinically obese women, but still had 9s throwing themselves at you!

    On the subject of guys not approaching the hotter women because they’re too shy, this changes with alcohol in the hook-up scene. Guys get sloshed with liquid courage. Also online most guys message the hotter women:

    http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/

  • Ramble

    Passer_By, it is actually easier than you think. However, make sure to talk to everyone (except kids). Men and Women.

    Don’t think of it, so much, as approaching, but as engaging.

  • Ramble

    Charm,
    The truth is that if you are looking for something serious, unfortunately, the modern college campus is going to be a sea without much fish in it. However, you should still stroll on over to the Math, Physics and CompSci buildings to take a look.

    I dont think its a fetish. I think its rather lovely and very feminine.

    If cute, feminine girls wearing gloves is a fetish, then I am a total pervert.

  • Passer_By

    Lok:

    I’m already married – so i was just kidding, and won’t be worried about approach anxiety unless something goes really wrong. But I would still find that very painful – I would probably just chicken out. Though I suppose it would be easier if I started with little old ladies who were grateful for the attention. Maybe I should do it as a personal growth exercise.

  • Passer_By

    Ooops, that was supposed to be for Ramble

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Susan, it’s not that simple actually. Higher circulating estrogen levels in a woman are also correlated with higher testosterone levels.

    Young, fertile women have the highest levels of both estrogen AND testosterone. As one rises, the other also rises. This is partially why during ovulation, when estrogen peaks, women’s libido also peaks, because testosterone peaks accordinly.

    As women get older, estrogen levels drop, and testosterone levels might stay even or drop somewhat, but the effect of testosterone becomes more pronounced. This produces the mid-life libido lift that some women experience.

    In men, naturally high testosterone levels are not correlated with higher estrogen levels. But anabolic steroids, which artifically increase testosterone levels, cause estrogen levels to increase, which can result in the infamous man-boobs on steroids.

  • Ramble

    Though I suppose it would be easier if I started with little old ladies who were grateful for the attention.

    And, old men. I understand that since you are married, that this is mostly moot. But, engage everyone (again, except children). This is not that much different than that game principle of talking to the whole group instead of laser-focusing on the prettiest girl there, even if she is your “target”.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Charm – “I’ve heard that the world will beat it out of you. ”

    Only if you let it. ;)

    I’m still a very picky bastard by most accounts, and although I have learned to compromise from time to time to get what I want/need, it rarely changes my opinion on the subject.

    For me, the difficulty I’m having because of my personality is this. I still feel exactly the same way about casual sex as I have my entire life. But, I’m now with someone that at one point in her life didn’t have a problem with it. My previous partners were all low promiscuity women (to be fair, I started dating the first when she was 18, the second when she was 17, and the third when she was 20, so they hadn’t really had a chance to become more promiscuous, but I digress…) so I’ve never had to deal with this particular issue. So, I’m faced with someone I love, respect, and care about a great deal that had a rather different viewpoint than myself. What I’m learning though, is that we really aren’t very far apart in how we look at casual sex now. The difference is, she had to learn that by actually doing it, while I figured it out without the need to try first. But, that seems to be the case for most people. They simply can’t decided if something is good or bad without trying it first. I assume it is another trait of my personality, and probably why I feel like most people simply don’t “think” enough.

  • Ramble

    Hope, that OKCupid graph is slightly misleading.

    1.) Men, in general, cast a wide net, and make sure to cast some of the net over the prettier girls.
    2.) Guys actions online will be somewhat different than it is in “real life”. For instance, who a guy is willing to “settle” for in real life is different than what he might pursue online.

  • OffTheCuff

    Hope: I don’t think I am. The (one) 9 was my RA’s “girlfriend”. I didn’t understand how FWB arrangements worked, and on top of that, I was totally inexperienced – so when she accosted me in the men’s shower, I simply didn’t know what to do. Too fast for me.

    As for liquid courage – hell no. (I probably went to 3 parties a week for 5 years, and for 2 years ran my own keg parties, so I speak from experience.) Getting drunk was what enabled me to socialize at all, and even to talk to any women, not shoot for the stars. I don’t think you quite understand the level of risk-aversion I’m talking about.

    As for the survey, I disbelieve that online messaging is risk-free. You can spam a hundred women in no time, and the guys who sign up for that are looking for casual. In real life, you can only approach one at a time, and a blowout hurts a lot more.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ramble, OKCupid has a younger demographic. I think this is reflecting a real shift with the younger generation. Today, there are many more guys who would rather be single than be with a girl they might consider a “settle.” The guys on here might be the outliers if they are willing to go for 3-5s.

  • Ramble

    Ramble, OKCupid has a younger demographic. I think this is reflecting a real shift with the younger generation. Today, there are many more guys who would rather be single than be with a girl they might consider a “settle.”

    Interesting point.

    For some reason, your thought reminded me of some simple advice almost every young person hears, “You can be/do anything you want.”

  • Rum

    I cannot feel much enthusiasm for holding someones “number” against them. If I think back honestly at my own life what I see is an endless series of botch-ups followed by intense efforts at repair and restoration. It has been my nature to get into various kinds of trouble – romantic and otherwise- but also to try to undo it afterwards. Has this damaged my soul in some way? Maybe so, but I long ago came to terms with the fact that I am what I am and the only real way forward is to work with that and not waste time blaming anyone.
    If a girl is high T and finds that she has abundant hot-ness to get what she wants with quality guys – I cannot blame on her too much if her number is what it is. The questions for me are (because I tend to identify with myself) Did she learn the right lessons? Did she bother to fix things she broke? Did she keep her sense of compassion? Does she swallow?

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “Getting drunk was what enabled me to socialize at all, and even to talk to any women, not shoot for the stars. ”

    I’ll second that! Also, at least for me, there is a very fine line between beer courage and whiskey dick, to put it bluntly. If I managed to get drunk enough to hit on random women, there was a good chance I couldn’t rise to the challenge if I tried anyway. I used to jokingly call it my “cheating protection mechanism”, and at least one of my LTR partners put it to the test a few times.

    Rum – yeah, I know people like you described. But I was never that way. I’ve always been so risk averse and so hard on myself when I screwed up big time, that I literally avoided situations where there was a good chance I would do or say something wrong. It got me pretty far in life with very few serious scars, but I do suffer from a lack of real life experience from the perspective of less cautious folks.

    And I get that someone with the ability to get what they want is more likely to use it, but the reason that upsets me is I intentionally didn’t do so, because for the most part, I was led to believe it was wrong to do so. Not only is that not their fault, but I’m finding more and more that plenty of people were never even given the message that being selfish is a bad thing. So, it becomes difficult to hold it against them for behaving selfishly when that was all they knew.

  • Rum

    Fixing damage = turning dangerous, destructive relationships into good memories for both of you.

  • Rum

    Like what Bill M. said to S. Johanson at the end of “Lost in Translation” .
    What he said to her was brilliant and for the ages and fixed everything. But unfortunately inaudible for us because of a jet taking off nearby.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      What he said to her was brilliant and for the ages and fixed everything.

      I’m still dying to know what he said! I love Bill Murray and I love that movie.

  • Cooper

    @Jesus Mahoney #112

    *puts up hand* vigin pot smoker. ;)

  • Tom

    @ Jess
    My arguments and stances are as before – I suppose I would echo Wudangs post 11 to some degree.

    Very promiscuous behaviour is likely linked to mental issues but there is research suggesting higher count people have higher self esteem than lower count people.

    _______________
    Yes there are studies that show some promiscuous people are just fine mentally.
    It seems so curious to me that people still want to lump all promiscuous people , especially women, into that, “there must be something wrong with her” if she behaves like that. Super sluts, I agree. But heaven forbid a perfectly fine mentally healthy person, likes sex but doesnt want to have a relationship. Wow she MUST be all messed up, no other explanation. 2 or three new partners a month is pretty slutty bewhavior, but 2 or 3 a year, not so much. Just rememeber, a lot of promiscuous people also have a steady f*ck buddy. So they do that person 40 times a year, and they add two or three new ones per year.. THAT is no big deal in my eyes. That person is pretty calculating, and not so much impulsive. I think we all agree that impulsivity is scary.

  • Cooper

    @Rum #276, and all

    My opinions of promiscuity has always revolved around the lyrics from The Cars – Just What I Needed

    “It doesn’t matter where you’ve been
    As long as it was deep, yeah”

  • Escoffier

    ohai tom!

  • Rum

    Susan
    People who have played around with the sound track claim that it was:
    “I have to be leaving but I won’t let that come between us”.
    Of course, that means everything and nothing at the same time.
    It is pretty good; but it is not good enough to accomplish what I laid out – so its better to remember the inaudible version, imho.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      Naturally I hoped that whatever he said meant they would see each other again, and your report implies some sort of future contact. Now I can die happy.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Tom – for me, it is exactly the attitude you describe that makes me dislike casual sex so much.

    “likes sex but doesnt want to have a relationship.” – I like sex, and that is partially why I’ve always either been in or looking to form a LTR. When I found myself alone, I went without until I wasn’t alone, which so far hasn’t been unbearably long.

    “Just rememeber, a lot of promiscuous people also have a steady f*ck buddy. So they do that person 40 times a year, and they add two or three new ones per year.. THAT is no big deal in my eyes” – I want to say up front that I am not trying to attack you Tom, so don’t take this next comment personally. I find the concept of a “f*ck buddy” to be repugnant. Add to that an additional few partners for variety and you’ve created a situation that, if I were to attempt to empathize with such a person, comes only a little shy of turning my stomach. That kind of cavalier and crass attitude towards sex literally makes me wince, as in when I read the comment you posted above, I made an audible sound and grimaced. My view on sexuality is so removed from the ideal you described that I can hardly believe it is a discussion on the same subject.

    I’m sure my views are as foreign to you, or perhaps they are not. It may be that I simply cannot grasp the concept of casual sex in a manner that is acceptable to my subconscious. But, for me, it is nearly impossible to form a real relationship with a person that feels as you describe, because I cannot relate to them, and if I cannot relate to them I will never fully trust them. And that is the root of the issue. Even though she may have done nothing to cause me to mistrust her, a woman attempting to earn my trust that has this outlook on sex will find herself fighting a losing battle. I understand that you feel this is unfair, and I won’t deny that fact. But we are talking about my love, my trust, and my life. And there is no compelling reason I should increase my risk by engaging with women that have an increased risk of issues. Yes, that may very well mean I miss the opportunity to be with a wonderful person. But, I would counter that if she were my ideal of wonderful, she wouldn’t have a promiscuous past for me to fret over at all.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    OffTheCuff, not everyone’s looking for casual from online dating sites. My husband and I had both been on them before, and we were never the types to look for casual. I’ve known several relationships that started from them. I also have a coworker in his 20s who’s had two LTRs from online dating.

    For teens and 20-somethings, online communication is how and where we do a lot of socializing (Facebook, Twitter, text messaging, video games, etc.). We don’t really consider online to be all that different or separate from real life. In college (and later when meeting new people) young people say to each other all the time, “Add me to Facebook.”

    Maybe this is also why young guys’ minimum standard of looks has been increasing. They see so many pictures of pretty girls online. And with all this dating, many guys on have been able to go on dates with an attractive girl. I’ve heard stories of pretty girls going on like 10+ dates a month.

    I think if we do a survey of the guys in their 20s here, they’re probably all going to rate their girlfriends as at least 7, and the objective “general” male rating would probably be at least similar.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      You’re back on the comment threads more – does that mean you’re feeling better? I hope so!

  • Tom

    Hey Ted, I wouldnt take it as attacking me. Different strokes for different folks. You did say,” Even though she may have done nothing to cause me to mistrust her, a woman attempting to earn my trust that has this outlook on sex will find herself fighting a losing battle. Ted, nothing wrong with your opinion or your take on sex. Just remember, she may have a casual outlook on sex while SINGLE, but probably she has a very different take on sex within the boundries of a relationship.
    You know, some people still feel guilty if they masturbate., so I am not the least surprised nor put off when people can not or do not understand the casual sex attitude. People are different and have different points of view based on their own experiences. I respect your views even though I dont hold them as my own.
    I dislike super sults and I dislike players. At least their actions I disapprove of.

  • WarmWoman

    @ “I mean, yeah that’s true in some cases, but what about the fact that some females just enjoy sex? ”

    They do enjoy sex, but it goes much deeper than sex. It’s like food. Most people enjoy stuff like pizza, fries and ice cream from time to time. But, what about the person that eats 3 pizzas in one sitting? He will say “I just really like pizza!”, but you would think there’s a deeper issue behind it.

  • Rum

    WW
    If you are guy and you are with a woman who makes it clear she wants sex to happen and you do not get with it right then and there you will see some crazy amount of anger.
    Guys factor this in whenever women try to say how complicated their sex drives are.

  • WarmWoman

    @JM

    Did your ex-fiance have a normal upbringing? Would you say your family history is more severe than hers?

    J-My knee jerk reaction also is sloppy manners and insecurity when the “How many people you’ve slept with?” question is asked. Then again, I strive to be the queen of impeccable manners and formality. My rule is that I don’t even ask about previous relationships on the first several dates, unless my date voluntarily starts to talk about it.

    @DogSquat

    How would one classily deflect the question?

  • Cooper

    For the sake of discussion, what problems does one person having a significantly higher, or lower, number than the other pose?

    It seems to be my understanding that guys want to know that their girls’ number is rather low. And girls seek to be a “high-number”-guy’s one, and only.

    I’ve been astonished by how many women here feel completely complacent in allowing a man to believe her number is low. (ie #86)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      And girls seek to be a “high-number”-guy’s one, and only.

      Has anyone said that? I see only female comments that express distaste for guys with high numbers.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Warm Woman,

    Nah, she was raised in a highly polished family.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    Just remember, she may have a casual outlook on sex while SINGLE, but probably she has a very different take on sex within the boundries of a relationship.

    To be honest, I’m not prepared to say that everyone who regularly participates in casual sex is somehow damaged. I think that it can and probably often DOES point to problems, but I’m willing to entertain the idea that there are people who regularly participate in it that are “healthy” adults in every other regard.

    Yet they clearly possess different values and conceive of sex and love differently than people who don’t choose to participate in casual sex. All that stimulation and teasing and climax and animal abandon is great, don’t get me wrong. But to some, it’s a very private, personal moment that they want to share with someone they care about. And they want that person to feel the same. For those people, so much of that stimulation comes from the ability to let go with someone you know and trust as wellas all the joy they get from pleasuring and getting pleasured by someone they care about deeply.

    Casual sex may not be “bad” or “unhealthy” or “damaging” or anything else, but it is cheap. To give yourself up to a perfect stranger that you never plan to see again is about the cheapest thing you can do with your body. To have a “fuck buddy” you designate for sex when you need your fix is only slightly less cheap.

    People who give themselves up cheaply aren’t bad. But they are cheap. Some of us don’t want to be with cheap people, no matter how good they are otherwise.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan. Cooper

    I recall being in Coopers situation.

    The part of the feminism-media lie that gets fed to guys but isn’t mentioned here is that your a loser for not having tons of sex and no woman will want you.

    When you actually hit the ground the reality is quite a bit different.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Lol. It makes sense now. You’re an INTJ and Im a ENTJ though I score pretty low on extroversion so I come off as a bit of an introvert. See, two peas in a pod. I think the whole standards holding happens alot with TJs especially NTJs. I literally feel like I cannot lower them, but from conversing with other NTs I’ve heard that the world will beat it out of you. I score pretty high in the NT and moderately in the J so I doubt Ill be swayed. A lot of NTJ men and women have very difficult times finding mates because they wont consider anyone who doesnt meet their standard, which is generally why they do well when they get into relationships with each other.

    How do you find out your score per letter? I’m a ENt/fJ. But I don’t know why the F or the T change so often when I take the tests. Any link to a test that can give the score per letter?

    In college (and later when meeting new people) young people say to each other all the time, “Add me to Facebook.”
    Aside from meeting my husband in Internet I can attest that most people ask for Facebook and/or linked it more often than emails this days. I think that online dating will be as common as bar hoping in the near future. If is not already.

    I don’t know why, but I cracked up at your choice of the term “prominent mandible.” As I recall, Roissy said those women are usually the daughters of alphas, which makes sense. Another reason to marry a beta guy

    Another of my names in school was Jaws. God bless puberty it somehow made the rest of my face grow enough to hide the big mandible my male relatives gave me. Really for as much as Roissy knows about women I think he missed that many of us Alpha daughters are usually attracted to beta like guys, probably to avoid unpleasant side effects like incest and unappealing jaw lines.

  • deti

    OK. Strong chin, then. You gotta admit, some of these female models have lantern jaws stronger than Gregory Peck’s.

  • Ramble

    I know it can be hard for young guys, but it’s a long haul for young women who aren’t slutty as well.

    Now, more than ever.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan,

    “Has anyone said that? I see only female comments that express distaste for guys with high numbers.”

    Yeah, but it’s something lots of us have observed out in the field. Actions speak louder than words (and comments) :-)

    A lot of the HUS women are outliers in that regard. It took me a while of looking to a woman whose hypergamy was in my range, and who hadn’t “enjoyed her 20’s” with some number of cads. It generally takes a little bit of time to see if current words are congruent with past actions, and like JM, I didn’t particularly care to be someone’s “Nth choice” or “fallback position”.

  • deti

    “To be honest, I’m not prepared to say that everyone who regularly participates in casual sex is somehow damaged. I think that it can and probably often DOES point to problems”

    You know, casual sex with two or three partners — probably no damage.
    Casual sex with 15 partners — probably some damage there.

    “Casual sex may not be “bad” or “unhealthy” or “damaging” or anything else, but it is cheap.”

    That’s a major reason why it causes problems. If you don’t value yourself, why should I value you?

    It also invokes the double standard: men who have a lot of casual sex don’t seem to have the problems of pair bonding that women do. ( some alpha men who have a lot of partners before marriage and then cheat after marriage do so because they have motive and opportunity, not because they aren’t bonded to a wife, IMO. It’s still cheating, after all is said and done but some married alphas do it because they can and they want to.)

    And: if you’re going to have casual sex, you gotta own it. You did it, you’re responsible for it, you live with whatever the consequences might be. You can’t later complain that your partner count chewed up your marriage market value. You can lie about it, but the consequence of the lie might be worse than if you’d just told the truth from the beginning.

  • Charm

    @ jesus #298

    Get out of my head damn it! I couldnt agree more.

  • Charm

    @anacoana

    I cant link you now but Ill try to later. You can pretty much determine if you are im fact ENTJ or ENFJ by looking at the dominant functions. ENFJs have an Fe dominant function which means they value harmonious communication and ENTJs have a Te dominant function which means they value order, structure, and apply logic to everything. Te doms will also say shit and not care about hurting feelings while an Fe dom would try to be tactful.

    Though, it is a sliding scale so you could be Fe dom with a well developed Te function. Based on you writing style Id guess NF only because its alot nicer than mine and your tone reads similarly to susans and hopes who are both NFs. Plus NFs tend to be more diplomatic. NTs dont care to be.

    I know that score lower on the extroerted function because I am Te while INTJs are Ne dom. I am also very charismatic amd good socially while a lot of intoverts have a hard time with this but I recharge really well alone and I prefer to spend a good amount of my time alone but not as much as introverts.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Susan, I’m not feeling great because of tree pollen allergies, but sometimes I have nothing better to do. :P And I’m trying to take my mind off the appointment coming up this Friday!

    Anacaona, I think this one will give you a “number” for how far along a dimension you are:

    http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp

  • WarmWoman

    @JM

    From what you posted awhile ago, she seemed to have a pretty high count in my book. Just curious, would you say she was emotionally healthy/stable and wasn’t using sex to fill a void/insecurity? If so, then she refutes the idea that a promiscuous woman usually comes from a messed up family or has some type of depression.

    Does anybody know a promiscuous women that WAS able to bond with her husband?

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Charm, “Plus NFs tend to be more diplomatic. NTs dont care to be. ”

    That’s funny. I don’t know if I’m more diplomatic. It’s more like I just don’t want to hurt people’s feelings. I’ll discuss ideas all day long, but when it gets personal I back away.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’m INFP. Not sure I’m always diplomatic, though.

  • Charm

    @hope

    See, diplomacy is born out of mot wanting to hurt anyone. NFs are really good at that. I have a very unfiltered thought process and will say things exactly as the came into my mind without giving people feelings a single thought. The fact that NFs can discuss ideas all day is why I like them. But not wanting to hurt feelings is where we’d clash. I dont walk on egg shells I tend to stomp right through them will cold har logic.

  • Ted D

    I have to make a concerted effort to be diplomatic during heated discussions. I tend to just go for the jugular, and then feel bad later that I hurt someone’s feelings. That being said, I can be a great mediator.

  • Ted D

    Charm – lol. Exactly…

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Charm, hah, stomping is a funny imagery. :P I generally get along quite well with NTs, because I can tolerate their stomping (since I don’t say anything about it), and they like discussions with me.

    I think this is partially why Jesus Mahoney seems “softer” on the promiscuity thing than Ted D. He wants to see the good in everyone and everything. Plus P’s are less judgmental than J’s.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Thank you Hope! :)
    Extraverted 22% Intuitive 75% Feeling 25% Judging 67%

    This is based on 100% right? Interesting I’m lower in Extraversion and Feeling than I was expecting. I will save the test and take it again when I’m not pregnant though. I had been a bit on the emotional side lately which is rare for me.

  • Charm

    @Jesus

    NFs certainly arent always diplomatic but I never am. Im emotionally retarded I guess. Feelings get in the way and are leas efficient so Ill disregard them. This offends people apparently.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I tend to just go for the jugular, and then feel bad later that I hurt someone’s feelings.

    I used to be like that except that the moment my rival faces showed emotional pain my stupidly high EQ make me feel pain too. It was like stabbing myself on the stomach so I learned to avoid hurting other people’s feelings because I felt exactly what they felt, which is not that noble after all. Reason why I rather keep my mouth shut when I’m mad. My husband is the only man in the planet that is actually worried when his wife is quiet. He knows I’m probably burning inside.

  • Maggie

    “she went to see a school counselor, who reported that most of the requests for counseling related directly to the hookup scene and kids’ struggles to find their place within it or outside it.”

    So everyone loses.

    The sexual revolution started over 40 years ago but the hookup culture has been around maybe ten years? I’m not sure. I think there is more than just the sexual revolution at play, though, and now that so many more children are being born to unwed mothers and raised in single family homes I wonder if we are going to see an escalation in the hook-up scene and even more depression among college students.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Warm Woman,

    It’s difficult for me to say. Probably it was a combination of things. For one, I think she valued her looks a lot. She’s one of those people who was always very pretty, even as a child, so I would imagine that her self-worth was tied up in the amount of attention she got from men.

    She was also very extroverted and was part of a clique of popular (and apparently promiscuous) girls in school.

    And I think there was also a bit of alpha-chasing. You know, as an undergrad student, I sort of blended into the crowd, but I was sort of the “AMOG” of my cohort in grad school. I think that’s what originally attracted her to me, looking back on it.

    And… she had a very high sex drive.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Worthwhile article: 7 mistakes women make with men

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      Great article at PJ Media, thanks for posting it!

  • Charm

    @ted

    Ive never been in a heated discussion but Ive been in a lot of passionate debates. Lol

    @hope

    Yea NFs will put up with my assholeness and NTs never take a disagreement personal.

    And also TJs are generally less forgiving. Once we believe something and have a rational reason for it you wont be able to sway us.

  • WarmWoman

    What’s an AMOG stand for?

    I don’t want to jump to conclusions, but a promiscuous women coming from a polished family just makes me feel like there was something buried under the rug. I could be wrong though.

    As for the very high sex drive, mine’s was very high from a young age up until 24…and then I started to talk about my abuse. That’s when my sex drive decreased. :( Oh well.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    AMOG=alpha male of the group, by which I mean the strongest writer with the most potential for success. (Though a girl in our cohort beat me out and had her novel published last year sometime.)

    If there was something buried under the rug, I was never let in on it. I’m usually pretty intuitive about those things, but honestly, my feelings may have blinded me to something.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Charm,

    I’m the opposite in that regard: I rely on my feelings more than my thoughts most of the time.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Jesus Mahoney, I’m somewhat surprised you were with such a type, but I had guessed she would be very attractive.

    I think very attractive and extroverted/flirty women get a lot more “offers” from men. So from a pure numbers perspective alone at least a few guys would succeed some of the time.

  • WarmWoman

    “If there was something buried under the rug, I was never let in on it. I’m usually pretty intuitive about those things, but honestly, my feelings may have blinded me to something.”

    She may very well just been hanging around the wrong crowd, and using the sex to reassure how attractive she is. It doesn’t matter, because you’re in a happy relationship now. ;)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Going back to Male Bodies
    I’m watching Jesus Christ Superstar the 1973 movie of the musical and I remembered that I do have a soft spot for the skinny type of bodies male dancers achieve. I like the added flexibility, muscle tone, the posture and strength. That probably is my ideal male body. Very nice to look at. :)

  • WarmWoman

    David Foster

    Is that a recent pic of Axl Rose in that photo? Good article, and I like the point about bitter man-hating women being the equivalent of misogynistic men.

    I was just making that point to a friend of mine when I told her that I’m not interested in hearing any bashing or mean comments about my ex. I told her “If you heard a man complain about his ex being a bitch and a whore, wouldn’t you think HE was the jerk?” She said, “Yes.” I then told her “Okay, so why would it be ethical for me to participate in conversations that demonize the man that I once loved?” She shut up after that.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    “A lot of the HUS women are outliers in that regard.”

    Data please? One cannot make bricks without clay.

    Based on the recent “Sexual Statististics” thread, the ladies of HUS are far from outliers. Special, yes, but not uncommon at all.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Based on the recent “Sexual Statististics” thread, the ladies of HUS are far from outliers. Special, yes, but not uncommon at all.

    If you take away my special snowflake title I’ll cut a bitch :p

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Anacaona
    I already insulted Twilight, so I figure I’m a heartbeat away from Strike 3 : )

  • SayWhaat

    Based on the recent “Sexual Statististics” thread, the ladies of HUS are far from outliers. Special, yes, but not uncommon at all.

    You mean…truly…NAWALT?? :P

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I already insulted Twilight, so I figure I’m a heartbeat away from Strike 3 : )

    I already told you that what you said, is not where close to the worst I had heard. It barely registered, don’t flatter yourself too much. ;)

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SayWhaat
    I’m not up on all these acronyms, so I had to do some homework in the glossary.

    I guess I’d say, NAWALT because, when the facts are considered, AHASAW!

  • purplesneakers

    I don’t want to jump to conclusions, but a promiscuous women coming from a polished family just makes me feel like there was something buried under the rug. I could be wrong though.

    Some of the girls with the biggest reputations at my college came from well-to-do, together families. They fit the same ‘type’ as what JM describes- attractive and extroverted/flirty (most of them were on sports teams). Like Anacoana said, cultural influences have made a big impact on the hook-up culture. It seems like “everybody’s doing it,” so they do it too. (It really makes me wish slut shaming would come back. hah.)

    Lokland- since the girl on the left has a wider face, she has a smaller chin (distance from lower lip to tip of chin), slightly more prominent cheekbones, and her facial features and lower and centered on her face, rather than being more spread out. Another difference is that there is more contrast between her eyes/hair and skin (and she has redder cheeks), which is also indicative of higher estrogen levels.

  • Charm

    @Megaman

    you’re gonna have to pry that special snowflake ribbon from cold dead hands. my COLD DEAD HANDS!

    Lol, not most women aren’t like that. I think the women of HUS are just more aware of the reasons we aren’t like that.

  • Charm

    @Jesus

    Feelings are evil when it comes to decision making. I don’t understand the pull of using your emotions to make a decision. But then again, someone might not understand how I could not use my emotions to do it. One day I’ll grow feelings.

  • Charm

    no*

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    One day I’ll grow feelings.

    My husband says: “Feelings? What are those? Can you eat them?” I often joke with him about “talking about my feelings” and he just go out screaming like a madman. So funny!

  • Charm

    @Anacoana

    Feelings scare the crap out of me. If someone starts crying in my presence I will literally stand there and say nothing until they stop.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Charm
    Have you cried yourself? Has any of your closer relatives/friends cried in front of you? If you have no experience with tears they can be really intimidating.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Megaman

    “Data please? One cannot make bricks without clay.!
    Based on the recent “Sexual Statististics” thread, the ladies of HUS are far from outliers. Special, yes, but not uncommon at all.”

    Reading comprehension issue.
    Susan’s statistics refer to “sexual partners”: “This data defines sexual partners as those with whom one has had heterosexual vaginal, oral or anal intercourse.”

    My comment was related to this:
    “Has anyone said that? I see only female comments that express distaste for guys with high numbers.”

    I was obviously referring to HUS women being outliers when referring to “distaste for guys with high numbers”. Susan’s statistics did not refer to this at all.

    My comment was related to anecdotal evidence of women saying they don’t like guys with high numbers, but acting contrary to that. There is a point at which a guy’s number becomes too high, but for the most part, from what I’ve seen, a large percentage of women prefer to pursue a “Don’t ask, don’t tell” policy.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @ENY
    Sorry, I misread your exact comment regarding preferences. But I’ll still take the opportunity to disagree anyway. The CDC data showed that almost 2/3 of married men reported being at or below the median for number of partners (~5 to 6). Whether or not some % of women prefer high count guys seems kind of moot. They don’t appear to be the majority at all.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Megaman,

    Google the percentage of married adults. It’s barely over 50%. 2/3 of that (the number you give) and we’re in the the ~33% range. That is not a majority.

    My point was that about “distaste for guys with high numbers”. Even if your numbers indicated a majority (which they do not), they don’t say anything about not preferring guys with higher numbers. For all we know, the (2/3)*).(50) could be women’s “fallback position” when the higher number guys wouldn’t commit…

  • Dogsquat

    Warm Woman said:

    @DogSquat

    How would one classily deflect the question?
    ______________________________

    You want me to lose my man card, don’t you?

    Hmmm.

    The following advice may involve some deception. It doesn’t have to, but it might…

    Deflecting the question involves more than the words you say at the time. You’ve got to lay some groundwork, including:

    Minimize (or eliminate, if possible) mentioning exes. Definitely DO NOT say their names to your new guy, EVER – this fixes them in his memory, and reduces how much obfuscation you’re able to do.

    You’ve also got to lessen the importance the guy places on the question. Before he even asks, you need to make him feel special in some way. The best way, obviously, is by complimenting some sexual skill he has. If he’s a great kisser, make him understand he’s fucking amazing at kissing. If he gives you a five alarm gut-wrenching Dogsquat Special Orgasm after some oral, a comment like,”Ohmyfucking..pant pant pant…That was crazy! Unnnngh. You have a tongue like a god!”

    You’re basically letting him know you’re very satisfied, and he at least matches up favorably with past experiences.

    Two caveats to the compliments:

    -Don’t say he has the biggest dick you’ve ever seen, unless it’s true. Most guys know where they stand on the International Schvanze Scale.

    -Don’t fake orgasms. That’s dumb for lots of reasons.

    I also used to ask the number question in a nonchalant manner, usually after sexy time. It’s harder for girls to deceive when they feel satisfied, adored, relaxed, and intimate. I also never said,”Number” at all, so be prepared for oblique inquiries. A smart guy is gonna ambush you – all’s fair in love and war, etc.

    When I ask, I’m not necessarily paying attention to the words coming out of your mouth. I’m studying your body language quite closely. I’m gauging how long it takes you to answer. I’m noticing your eye movement, your respiration, if your palms get clammy or if your skin gets pale. I take note of your affect – are you tense or relaxed? Irritated? Nervous? Offended?

    To dodge, you must be very smooth. Think congruency.

    As to what you say:

    Don’t tell the guy how he should feel. Something like,”It’s in the past and shouldn’t matter,” is dismissive. Big. Red. Flag.

    Something that alludes to a past, i.e.”I made some mistakes, but I’m with you now,” is a super-dumb thing to say. The guy is going to think you were a 30 per day flat-backer your junior and senior years of college. It also opens the door to him questioning your “mistakes”, and you won’t be able to dodge forever.

    The longer you pause before answering, the less credibility your answer has. Plan out your little script and have it polished and ready to go, because a 20 second pause followed by stammering = you are full of shit.

    Probably the best thing would be something like,”I don’t kiss and tell, but it’s probably less than yours.” Hopefully, he’ll want you to guess his number and you can compliment him. Gently steer the convo away from numbers. You’re going to have to tailor this to the individual guy. Make it seem about privacy and old-school values.

    I guess the most important part of all that is making the guy feel as if the number doesn’t matter. He’ll be less likely to pursue the question.

    In closing:

    Do not lie. Gracefully refusing to answer is one thing, but a lie is a different kettle of fish. Also, a smart, perceptive guy is watching and evaluating your behavior. One conversation is not the end of this issue.

    Sorry, gents.

    In my defense, not many gals are going to be able to pull that off.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    Jesus Mahoney, I’m somewhat surprised you were with such a type, but I had guessed she would be very attractive.

    I think very attractive and extroverted/flirty women get a lot more “offers” from men. So from a pure numbers perspective alone at least a few guys would succeed some of the time.

    I was shy and afraid of rejection. My “type” at the time was a woman who approached me and made it easy.

  • WarmWoman

    “Some of the girls with the biggest reputations at my college came from well-to-do, together families”

    I’m sure that can be the case, but I also came from an Indian family that looked “well-to-do” on the outside. I played the part of a puppet for many years where I treated my parents like Gods and let everyone know just how wonderful they were. At the age of 24, I had to come to terms that what has happened in my home wasn’t normal.

    So, perhaps it’s my own projection where I start to think if there’s something hidden or denial is going on. Being in denial for me was my way of coping with something that was too painful to admit. What I went through is too taboo and unbelievable to even talk about in Indian society. Thank goodness I can mention this stuff here without being judged, accused of lying, or being told that I’m degrading the reputation of Indians.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Charm,

    Feelings are evil when it comes to decision making. I don’t understand the pull of using your emotions to make a decision.

    I guess it depends on what you mean. I don’t base important decisions on whether I’m happy or sad at the time, but I also don’t weigh pros and cons, think things through in a logical manner before deciding, etc… I go with my gut instinct and then use logic and reasoning to get me to where my gut wants to go.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Warm Woman,

    She may very well just been hanging around the wrong crowd, and using the sex to reassure how attractive she is. It doesn’t matter, because you’re in a happy relationship now.

    Yup :P

  • WarmWoman

    I don’t if the above post of mine sounded too weepy or was irrelevant, but my point was that you never know what goes on behind closed doors. Dysfunctional families are very peculiar about their public reputation and worrying about what their neighbors think. So, they can deceptively come off as loving and well-to-do.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Warm Woman,

    Not at all. There’s a lot of truth to to that. Her parents seemed genuinely loving, though also incredibly indulgent.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Charm – “Feelings are evil when it comes to decision making. I don’t understand the pull of using your emotions to make a decision. But then again, someone might not understand how I could not use my emotions to do it. One day I’ll grow feelings.”

    come on now. As a fellow NT you know that *I* know you have plenty of feelings. The thing is, I feel VERY deeply, but I also keep a very, very tight lid on my emotions. I can’t help but feel deeply, as it truly is in my nature. However, I have a finely honed ability to completely shut out my emotions if necessary, and generally make important decisions with little to no emotional input at all. Once I’ve decided, I may take the time to examine how I feel about the decision, but I don’t allow it to change my opinion at all.

    I do this for two reasons:
    1. using emotion as a prime source of decision making info just seems WAY too haphazard to me. I get the “gut instinct” feelings sometimes, but I never act on them without proper logical investigation first. I would never be satisfied with a decision if I wasn’t 100% sure it was a logical one.
    2. Its the only way I know how to be fair. As a “J”, I do judge people often, and many times rather harshly. I can’t deny that many of my core values are based in emotion to some extent, but I do my best to keep the emotional aspect out of it when making decisions. The side effect is, when it comes to core issues like sexuality, I often make very logical decisions and conclusions based on core beliefs literally steeped in emotion. At this point in my life, I’m OK with that. I’m not looking to rewrite my basic programming, and to be honest after giving it a ton of thought, I’m also OK with my outlook on the subject. I know I’m in the minority, but I really don’t care.

    So anyway, stop with the “cold hard logic” stuff Charm. NO way your getting that past me. ;)

    DogSquat – Dude! I hope none of the hardcore ‘sphere type guys saw that post…

    Your suggestions are certainly good, but I will second your opinion that most women could not pull this off. There are SO many places to slip up, so many little nuances to study, and to be honest, that type of a drawn out “game plan” on her part would probably have me sniffing around WAY before we got to the actual discussion.

    Ladies – guys like me, the ones that are concerned about your number, tend to be distrustful of any sign that you are dodging, tend to be pretty aware of body language, and have probably had numerous other women in their lives attempt the same deception you are contemplating. I still maintain that, even if it costs you the relationship, you should be honest. Think about it: do you really want a man that you had to LIE to in order to keep him around? Do you want to build the foundation of your relationship on misdirection and lies? What if somehow he finds out 10 years after you are married? I know it sucks that things you cannot change may ruin your chances with individual men, but the truth is we all make mistakes and decisions that affect us our entire lives. A promiscuous past is simply one of those things. Obviously there are guys out there that don’t care about your sexual history, so why on earth would you deceive one that does?

    I know most folks wont agree with me on this next statement, but here goes. Hiding or lying about your past sexual history is only slightly better than hiding the fact that you have an STD. If I feel the information is important to me in order to fully commit to you, then hiding it is relationship fraud, plain and simple. If you are with a man that never asks, by all means don’t bring it up. I would NEVER in a million years suggest to anyone that talking about previous partners is a good idea. But, if he asks, don’t lie or dodge. Because, if he actually asked you, he really wants to know.

  • Escoffier

    “My ‘type’ at the time was a woman who approached me and made it easy.”

    Funny, that’s still my type. :-D

  • Escoffier

    Ted, I don’t disagree with you at all. Looking back, it occurs to me that the one’s I didn’t ask were the ones that I had, one some level, already ruled out as a long-term prospect. There is only one quasi-exception to that, but I was quite torn about her. Heart was madly in love with her, brain said “Run!” I didn’t ask partly because I intuited that I would not like the answer but also because I think my brain knew that this was not going to last so why bother.

  • Jason

    Dogsquat was on point with that post. Thing is, if a guy is perceptive and coy enough in asking the N question, most women will either have to tell the truth or be one hell of a saleswoman to avoid it. And if the girl is the latter, may God help you.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    ““My ‘type’ at the time was a woman who approached me and made it easy.”

    Funny, that’s still my type. ”

    Up until now mine as well. If by some unfortunate twist of fate I end up “looking” again, I will have no particular type, but I will be all about the proactive approach. Only way I can get what I want is if I look for it, find it, and lock it down. If I’ve learned anything from HUS and the ‘sphere, its that passivity is a fail for men.

  • Escoffier

    If I get divorced I am going to become a player.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    If I get divorced I am going to become a player.

    A player with yourselfer? :P

  • Dogsquat

    @Ted D:

    Yeah, the more life-experience the guy has, the less likely he is to fall for this. A young guy with a bit of an ego who wants it to be true, though? Might work.

    Hell, I might have bought it at 23 or 25, even. The girl has to be dedicated to it and really sell it, and the guy has to be a little naive and idealistic.

    I’m sitting here chuckling at myself. There’s no way I’d have posted this 6 months ago. I’m finding a tiny shred of sympathy growing in my cold, black heart. A very nice lady is turning this grouchy old lion into a little kitty-cat, methinks.

    Have a good day, all. I’m off to bed for a bit.

  • Dogsquat

    Jason said:

    “And if the girl is the latter, may God help you.”
    ___________________________

    No doubt.

    Nightmare fuel, indeed.

  • Escoffier

    “A player with yourselfer? ”

    That’s probably how it will end up.

  • Ted D

    Dogsquat – I would have bought it hook, line, and sinker in my early to mid 20’s.

    Don’t go too far into fluffy kitty territory man. We all know where that leads. ;-)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Dogsquat,

    Fuck that–go kitty. I’m with you, bro.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    That’s probably how it will end up.

    Meh, I think you’d be surprised at how easy it is to find interested women if you develop confidence.

  • J

    Hi Hope,

    I still am being denied acess to your blog by my Kaspersky, so I have no idea how you’re doing. I hope well.

    I think this is partially why Jesus Mahoney seems “softer” on the promiscuity thing than Ted D. He wants to see the good in everyone and everything. Plus P’s are less judgmental than J’s.

    Cosigned. I’m an INTP and tend to agree a lot with JM. I’m also very relecutant to judge people–mostly because you never have enough data to really know what motivates them. The ‘sphere’s emphasis on shaming people makes me cringe. I have zero tolerance for certain behaviors though.

    It’s interesting in terms of my relationships. Being an INTP it makes me a really tough but loving mother. I have high standards for my sons, but I’ve never punished them or shamed them. They just know what’s expected and generally do it. DH is an INTJ and tends to be more decisive with them than I am, but he doesn’t punish much either.

  • Tom

    JM@ comment 298
    You are right, people who have casual sex, may have different values concerning only sex. Some people can and do separate casual sex and relationship sex.
    As for cheap, I dont think that is the correct terminology. I prefer casual.
    You said,”Yet they clearly possess different values and conceive of sex and love differently than people who don’t choose to participate in casual sex”
    I would say they only perceive sex differently. They do not believe sex has to be in the confines of love. However while in a loving relationship, they are just like you and I.
    Of course there are exceptions to every rule, in both casual and chaste people.
    I also have to add this. Lots of people who have casual sex, do so with people they know and trust. It is not just the one night stand crowd who has casual sex. I would think having lots of ONS`s with strangers is pretty risky behavior for women. lots of nutting people out there (reference the movie,”Looking for Mr. Goodbar”)
    It really is a moot point to argue if promiscuous people are unhealthy mentally. Obviously some are, and some are not. Same with chaste people.
    Having casual sex only really means that person has a little different value system than a non promiscuous person.
    of course anything can be over done, such as eating too much. I would say that person is self destructive, another might say that person just likes to eat…No way to really know until you get to know them personally..

  • J

    Feelings scare the crap out of me. If someone starts crying in my presence I will literally stand there and say nothing until they stop.

    I don’t mind feelings; I just don’t trust them. I like to run them through my head before I give into them. OTOH, my feelings tend to run very deep.

  • Tom

    @ Warm woman
    Does anybody know a promiscuous women that WAS able to bond with her husband?

    ________________
    Hells yes!. lots, or I should say most of them I knew as having several partners became soccer moms etc.
    Im hoping that was not a serious question.
    Our host certainly seems to have bonded with her hubby and she admits to being somewhat promiscuous.
    Now ,I have known a few super sluts, women with high numbers such as 40+ and most of them had obvious issues well before they became sexual.

  • Rum

    Ladies
    If you like what you see the first time you get naked with a guy do NOT say, “Wow, that is like one out of a 100!” or your count will be adjusted accordingly.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If you like what you see the first time you get naked with a guy do NOT say, “Wow, that is like one out of a 100!” or your count will be adjusted accordingly.

      Rum, you’ve been on a roll lately, that’s funny. How about, “Oh wow, it looks so different when it gets hard!”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    As for cheap, I dont think that is the correct terminology. I prefer casual.

    Naturally, since you and yours met having casual sex.

    I would say they only perceive sex differently. They do not believe sex has to be in the confines of love. However while in a loving relationship, they are just like you and I.

    I’m not so sure. First of all, “they are just like you and I” makes no sense, since you and I have very different views. You’re one of the “theys”. Also, most “non-casual” people don’t make a distinction between physical and emotional intimacy. When you kiss a person, or caress them, lick them, suck them, fuck them, whatever… you’re sharing your love with them. For the casual person, this isn’t the case. The touch, the lick, the fuck… none of them carry the same weight with the casual person, because for them, a lick is sometimes just a lick. Or if it is the case, if you are sharing your love with people you don’t care about enough to commit to in a relationship, then that cheapens the value of your love.

  • J

    Does anybody know a promiscuous women that WAS able to bond with her husband?

    It depends on how you define promiscuous. Most of my married friends have been faithful to their husbands for 20-30 years, yet most have had a few other partners prior to their marriage. Cheating seems to be correlated to other problems in the marriage as opposed to number of partners before marriage. IME, women who cheat do it because they feel unloved, they feel that the mariage is dead anyway or the because their husband is cheating on them. I don’t give much credence to the sphere’s “magic penis” theory that sex wirth a virgin bonds her to you forever. I seen women leave marriages even when the husband was the one and only.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – “Cosigned. I’m an INTP and tend to agree a lot with JM. I’m also very relecutant to judge people–mostly because you never have enough data to really know what motivates them. The ‘sphere’s emphasis on shaming people makes me cringe. I have zero tolerance for certain behaviors though.”

    I judge everyone. All the time. And usually without remorse or concern for how they feel about it. As Charm put it, I hold myself to a pretty strict standard IMO, and I am more than happy to measure everyone else with it. When I do it, I don’t care what motivates them. Usually I think on that after the fact, to see if I can be better at judging the next time. I was raised to view shaming as an effective and useful tool for controlling behavior, and I’m finding that a difficult ideal to change. I have zero tolerance for stupidity, even in myself.

    All that makes me look like a totally opinionated and condescending asshole. And, to most people, I probably am. But, as I’ve said before, I tend not to think too highly of “people”, so I don’t blame them if that is exactly how they see me. I don’t consider it a loss on either part, they aren’t any more interested in me than I am in them.

    To the people I know, trust, and love, I am a totally different person. Once I’ve decided someone is a quality person, the judgement is done and over with. That’s why I’m super picky about who I keep as a friend, because once I decide to let you through my protective walls, I stop watching for you to stab me in the back. Underneath all the cold, hard, logic I am a very empathetic and emotional person. I feel deeply for the people I care about, but not at all for the people I don’t.

    I believe that once upon a time I was more feeling and less judging. As I’ve said before, the cold and logical part of me is what I learned to protect myself from the world. I intentionally keep myself distanced from most people on some level, simply because it is too much risk to give them a chance, and be disappointed later. I’m sure to most people that seems awfully jaded and lonely, but I’m honestly OK with it. It takes enough effort to maintain the small circle of friends I have now, I certainly don’t need more. And, if nothing else, it means that I will not be disappointed as often by people I depend on.

    Strangely enough, my friends seem to actually value my outlook. I am often asked to evaluate people they meet because I am “such a good judge of character.” Every single one of my friends (including my SO) knows how picky I am about people, and realizes that I am putting a lot of faith in them. And, anytime one of them has an issue that they are very emotional about, they come to me to get the “logical” take on it. With them, I am myself, without the need for walls or layers, and I’m actually a pretty fun person to hang around when I’m not “keeping my distance”. Its a side of me only a very select few people in the world have or will ever see. ;)

  • Charm

    @Ted D

    Stop puttin’ me on blast lol. I do have emotions, but generally they are pretty well hidden. I don’t want to say this is done purposely, as it is just how I am and I don’t convey them well even without realizing it. I think a big part of the reason Im not very emotionally expressive is because I associate weakness with emotions and I don’t like to be weak (enneagram type 8w7). Only under very serious circumstances will I understand why someone is crying.

    When a woman is crying over spilled milk because something overwhelmed her, it makes me dislike her as a person. I don’t know why, but I associate that shit with being very manipulative. No one will tell her to suck it up even if shes being dramatic because they don’t want to look like an asshole. Everyone will pat her on the back and comfort her will I’ll stand there with a look of impatience and disgust on my face.

    Ted, I too have the flood gate problem. I find that when I do open up to someone, its a very intense rush of emotions. Its not just what Im upset about now, its pretty much everything I’ve ever been upset about that it rushing out all at once because I rarely face what Im feeling. I also need to feel like Im opening up to a very trustworthy person or else I simply can’t do it.

    I also find it hard to actually distinguish what Im feeling. Generally all my emotions come out in anger. If something makes me sad, it instantly switches to anger. If Im disappointed, I’ll become angry. If I even feel exhausted, Ill become angry. Anytime an emotion comes over me I generally get mad because I disklike that I cant control it. I dislike that this thing has the ability to affect me. Then that anger leads me to get pretty snappy and cut throat with people and I generally withdraw and can brood. If someone asks me how Im feeling I can only ever explain it in rational ways. Which seems odd.

    Re the numbers question

    I’d probably get annoyed if I felt like someone was trying to sniff around to get the answer. Im pretty perceptive, so I’d probably say: “Stop beating around the bush, there is obviously something you want to know just go ahead and ask it. I won’t lie. I promise.” I don’t like how people get nervous about having to rock the boat. Either rock it hard or don’t bother rocking it. My preference would be to be asked in a very straightforward manner:

    Him: “You don’t sleep around do you?

    Me: “No, why?” ( I only ask why to see if the question was because of insecurity)

    Him: “I value sex and don’t want to date someone who has casual sex.”

    Me: “Lol, good I don’t want to date a man who has either.”

    Him: “How many men have you been with?”

    Me: “Two, and that includes kissing, bj and handjobs.”

    There wouldn’t even need to be a set up. It seems like a simple conversation to me that can be had in a few seconds and then we could move on to other things. I don’t understand why men are afraid to be judgmental. You’re judging her anyway might as well be upfront about it.

    Like I said before, my idea courting process would be a damn interview.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    J, I use Firefox + NoScript (and all sites blocked unless I grant temporary permissions), which pretty good at stopping nasty Web stuff.

    I’m doing okay-ish… won’t really know until tomorrow. Keeping my fingers crossed and all that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m doing okay-ish… won’t really know until tomorrow. Keeping my fingers crossed and all that.

      Hope, is that an ultrasound appointment? Will you come online and let us know how it went?

  • Tom

    JM
    Your girlfriends sounds like a really cool woman and as you already know, she is a keeper, no matter her past. She was really cool before you knew her and she is really cool now.
    We are all sums of our past expereinces. That may mean one person never learns and is a mess. The other with similar expereices learns a lot about themselves and becomes even a better, more stable person fron the leasons learned.
    It would be nice if we all undeerstood ourselves right of of the box. Obviously that isnt true. Ive learned the most from mistakes Ive made.

  • J

    What can I say, Ted? I’m an INTP. I understand. ;-)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom

    JM
    Your girlfriends sounds like a really cool woman and as you already know, she is a keeper, no matter her past. She was really cool before you knew her and she is really cool now.

    Wait, do you mean my current gf or my ex who I described above?

  • J

    Hope,

    Maybe, it’s the Kaspersky itself being oversenstive to something. At any rate, I probably won’t be able to get into your blog again, so just know that my thoughts are with you even if I don’t post on your blog.

    I hope all goes well tomorrow and I have every confidence that it will.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Jesus Mahoney, indulgent parenting is awful. It’s worse than authoritarian. I think we had this discussion before with Yohami. Authoritian with love is better than authoritarian with no love, and is better than indulgent with love which is in turn better than no rules without love (neglect). J’s doing the authoritarian with love, and that method of parenting produces the best kids.

    I think the whole “let kids do whatever they want” thing probably leads to the hook-up and party culture, too. I was always very careful despite an abusive and broken home, because my mother was very strict and authoritarian.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Charm – “I also find it hard to actually distinguish what Im feeling. Generally all my emotions come out in anger. If something makes me sad, it instantly switches to anger. If Im disappointed, I’ll become angry. If I even feel exhausted, Ill become angry. Anytime an emotion comes over me I generally get mad because I disklike that I cant control it. I dislike that this thing has the ability to affect me. Then that anger leads me to get pretty snappy and cut throat with people and I generally withdraw and can brood. If someone asks me how Im feeling I can only ever explain it in rational ways. Which seems odd.”

    I was more like this when I was a young lad, say between puberty and early 20’s. At some point in my mid 20’s, this started to calm down a lot. I still have to fight the urge to get angry at my kids when they trip and get hurt, because the crying does indeed set off my anger quickly. Add to that the fact that most of the time they got hurt being stupid, and I REALLY have to keep my instincts in check with them. For me, it became easier to control my emotions as I got older, and finally now that I’m half-way to my expiration date, I feel like it is no longer a struggle and instead it feels like a balance, which was what I wanted all along.

    I still cannot describe how I feel correctly to most people. Time and again I’ve proven it here, and even though I continue to work on it, I have difficulty. Even with my SO, I often struggle to explain how I feel about something. Its as if I cannot allow my emotions out without parsing it through the logic layer first. Actually, that is exactly it. I do the same thing when I talk. I only speak frankly in the company of a small select few people, and even then it usually takes a few drinks. And, when I do, it usually comes out very sarcastic and cynical, which seems to amuse them to no end.

    I don’t know many NJs so I don’t know if this is par for the course. But, I would say in our sample of two we share some very similar traits. I for one could care less if I’m normal, so I hope you are good with yourself. I am not the right person to measure normalcy against. LOL

  • Tom

    JM
    First of all, “they are just like you and I” makes no sense, since you and I have very different views. You’re one of the “theys.
    ____________
    I think we both have the same views of relationships.(exclusivity etc)
    I also think you had casual sex in the past, so we are a like in that arena too.
    I think your girlfriend had sex before you so we are alike in that arena.

    You said,”because for them, a lick is sometimes just a lick. Or if it is the case, if you are sharing your love with people you don’t care about enough to commit to in a relationship, then that cheapens the value of your love.
    _______ ____
    In casual sex there is no love going on to cheapen. Love does not = sex and sex does not = love.
    In a relationship, love is love, no matter your past.
    If happy is happy, if unhappy is unhappy, if anger is anger, if jealously is jealously, if guilt is guilt, then love is love.

  • Charm

    @Ted D

    Lol. Im the exact same way. I keep a very very exclusive circle of people around me. I can socialize with a fair portion of people but most will never make it past a certain point. Generally, I don’t just judge character, I also judge the strength of character. If they are the kind of person that will abandon themselves and their values through minimum social pressure just to fit in then no matter how “good of a person” they are, they are a liability to me. Lol a liability, what the fuck. Am I a damn general in war or something?

    I’ve also noticed that because I am so exclusive with friendships that people eagerly want to get “in” or on my good side which is an annoying side effect. I’ve had people introduced to me through mutual friends think that they were privy to the same treatment as my actual friends by virtue of being friends with them. They soon found out that they weren’t and Im sure a few were hurt by it, but whatever. I don’t get why people think that they should be treated some amazing way by all people just by virtue of being human or “nice”.

    I tend to be very neutral to most people upon first meeting them, and yes, I too apply my very high standard to them and if they don’t meet it then they just don’t. You won’t gain access, its as simple as that. I treat people that I care about very very well. People I really dislike will get the cold shoulder ever single time. Sure, to a lot of people this seems very arrogant, but Im learning to stop apologizing for it. I am who I am. People who don’t think before they act surely don’t apologize for being who they are, they always chalk it up to being “human”. Well then, I might be judgemental with people but you can’t judge me because….Im only human. Is that how that works? Lol, if so I like it.

    @J

    This is part of my dislike for perceivers. Especially sensing perceivers. They are too forgiving. I generally bond well with personalities that are just as judgmental as I am, or have no problem seeing the validity in my judgement. If I have a valid reason for saying someone is an incompetent, good for nothing, ass hat and the person listening is rattling off a handful of bullshit reasons of why they person is “okay” it would make me lose respect for them. This is my problem specifically with SFPs because they can never agree with the logic behind why I think a certain thing. If it violates their feelings or makes them feel bad, they will use their special logic to try and make an excuse for it. NTPs though aren’t that bad, but still too forgiving for my blood. Lol, but Im still not very accepting or forgiving of others.

  • Charm

    @Ted

    You’re normal. Im normal. The problem is everyone else. Yes, thats right, everyone else.

    Oh what type is your SO? Im gonna guess SFP based on your descriptions.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    sex does not = love.

    This what you don’t get. For some people, it does.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Tom – “In a relationship, love is love, no matter your past.”

    But, the question for those of us that perhaps feel more deeply about love and sex: Do you, Tom, as a man that has had casual sex and has no issue separating sex and love, feel as deeply about your mate in a LTR as I do? It is a question neither of us can answer, because we cannot KNOW how the other person feels.

    To me, this is the root of the issue. How can I know, beyond all doubt, that someone cares as deeply for me as I do for them? I can’t. But, I can look for any sign that may show she doesn’t, and if/when I find them, I have to evaluate if they do indeed prove she doesn’t. Casual sex is a clear sign that she doesn’t have the same values I do, and that is certainly cause for further investigation, or possibly for me to cut my losses and move on.

    So, I won’t argue with you that SOME people that have and do enjoy casual sex can indeed feel as deeply about me as I do them in a LTR. But, as a half glass empty kinda guy, I would count that as a strike against her from the gate. From there, a continuing cavalier attitude about casual sex will probably result in me moving on. I can be OK with a woman that has some promiscuity in her past, provided she has clearly demonstrated her “change of heart”, and that does not necessarily mean she spent time with someone without cheating. By change of heart I mean that she would no longer consider casual sex as an acceptable behavior. If she is great being loving and monogamous while with me, but would go back to casual sex should we break up, I would be inclined to get her back to casual sex sooner than later.

    This is about the attitude, not the behavior. I am fully aware that a promiscuous person can be capable of “behaving” while in a relationship. But, if they go back to casual sex while NOT in a relationship, then they haven’t changed a bit. And it is that attitude that I find so distasteful. To me, it means I really didn’t mean that much to them in the first place, that they can be satisfied with casual sex after saying to me how much more enjoyable relationship sex is. And if that is the case, then why bother even going down that path?

  • Sassy6519

    As a female ENTP, I’m starting to feel like I will forever be doomed with men. I have yet to meet a man that truly gets me. I’m starting to believe that they are a rarity.

    I think very attractive and extroverted/flirty women get a lot more “offers” from men. So from a pure numbers perspective alone at least a few guys would succeed some of the time.

    I think this is true, but there is a point where attractiveness can work against you. The more attractive the woman, the more confident (or drunk) the man has to be in order to approach her. Once guys start apologizing for merely approaching you and expressing gratitude towards you just for talking to them, you know you’ve crossed that threshold.

    Le sigh.

  • J

    J’s doing the authoritarian with love, and that method of parenting produces the best kids.

    Actually, I think of my parenting style as “authoritative” as opposed to “authoritarian.” The latter says, “Do what I say. I’m your parent. That makes me right.” What I’m saying is “Look, kiddo. I’ve walked this earth for a lot longer than you have, and I’ve learned some things of value as a result. You should listen to me.”

    DH and I have raised the boys to be their own men–for better or worse. They are not automatically compliant kids, but they don’t do a lot of stupid stuff or rebel for its own sake. They tend to be kind and polite, but not automatically or indiscriminantly respectful. They tend not to respect people based on title or role, but rather based on whether or not they think people have something of value to impart. Somehow, we’ve managed to convince our kids that we do. ;-) But srsly, they do come to us for advice and value our good opinion of them. And they tend to know when they are wrong and man up to it. They are developing the sort of moral compasses that will benefit them when DH and I aren’t there to hold their hands. I value that.

    A few years ago, my friend’s college-aged kid told me a story about a girl who held up a cafeteria line at her dorm while she called her mother to see if she liked a particular vegetable. She didn’t know what to order without mom standing over her shoulder. That’s my nightmare. I mean, if you don’t don’t how you feel about brussels sprouts, how do you decide about sex? Or work? Or anything?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    Yea, I remember that conversation. I agree, indulgence is awful.

  • Cooper

    @Susan

    Lokland (#301) seemed to know exactly what I was talking about.

    Lalady (#86) stated she adjusted her behavior to appear more “pure” and “innocent”; and that guys responded better believing her number was lower than it actually was.

    According to the advice I’ve received online (including HUS), a guy should alter his behavior to as though his number is higher than may actually be. (in order to receive similar “better response”)

    Why is that contrary to the first?

  • J

    This is part of my dislike for perceivers. Especially sensing perceivers.

    I’m a thinking perceiver–thank God. LOL.

    If I have a valid reason for saying someone is an incompetent, good for nothing, ass hat and the person listening is rattling off a handful of bullshit reasons of why they person is “okay” it would make me lose respect for them.

    I can see those faults in people; I just can’t get worked up over it. I have a friend who is a lot like you on this issue. She’ll vent on the faults of mutual friends and, while I’ll agree that the faults exist, I won’t get angry. And that pisses off my friend. Which I find funny. IDK, I just accept that people are as they are, whether I like it or not. If you can’t change someting, why get your undies in a bundle?

    Ironically, I am one of the few people who can tolerate my friend’s tirades–because that’s just how she is.

  • Thomas Maynar

    I just loved everything about this post.
    I’m not sure which comes first, Promiscuous or Crazy! I had never thought about any of these. You got me thinking.

    Thanks for sharing.

    -Thomas

  • Charm

    @Sassy

    From what I’ve observed about ENTPs, they tend to be very curious about people and have a desire to kind of try and figure out exactly who people are and what their buttons are. I know ENTPs are the personal rationals so they tend to get along better with people than ENTJs but based off of the time I’ve spent with ENTPs I feel like there is something about them that is very unsettling. I dislike how they treat people like pet projects, and treat everything like its a game to be played. They are more friendly than NTJs but they are just as lethal or at least have the potential to do so.

    That being said, ENTPs might do just a bit better that NTJ wome or STJ women. That judging function fucks us over in the end and can come off as bossy and domineering especially for the STJ. Also, like I said before NTs tend to have a huge independence streak. That can be offputting. Also, rational women are much harder to get close to because they don’t show emotions very well. Most men are accustomed to dealing with SF women so when they meet a girl like you or me I imagine their is this “what the fuck did I just walk into moment” Lol. From what I’ve observed, it takes a while for people to get used to me and my personality being around. I think NT want to be as approachable as SF gals but the fact is they just aren’t. I feel like men have to circle around for a while and spend longer observing before they dare approach.

    I was talking with some other NT men on another site and they said that they found ENTJ and ENTP women very attractive but were nervous about the approach because we seemed “unpredictable” and could bite their heads off if we wanted to. Which….is true, lol. I’ve found that it works out best for me if I just go ahead a be friendly with people first so they see there is nothing to be afraid of. NTs girls are less than 10% of the female population, you can’t expect men to have a blueprint on how to interact with you.

    Lastly, NT girls just aren’t most mens preference. Which is fine by me, because most men aren’t mine either.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    1. using emotion as a prime source of decision making info just seems WAY too haphazard to me. I get the “gut instinct” feelings sometimes, but I never act on them without proper logical investigation first. I would never be satisfied with a decision if I wasn’t 100% sure it was a logical one.

    I’m conflicted in this one I do have a good gut feeling but I barely ever follow him because I’m always thinking “What if I’m wrong?” It fails all the time. I decided to follow it next time but then I just meet a new person and she totally had my gut feelings in red alert as “bad woman” the problem is she is friends with my husband’s friends and my husband think I’m being judgmental because she said an unsavory comment about Twilight in our first meeting. Is not that I know the feeling but now I feel I need to ignore it as not to look silly. So far I had only felt this way for four other people and I never dislike people in a first meeting, all of them ended up robbing money or getting someone fired to cover their asses for something bad, and things along those lines so if I fake it I will probably feel guilty if they hurt my friends. But then maybe here people is less likely to end up doing harm you have a different dynamic. Anyway she is already having issues with some of the other friends with luck she will remove herself of the circle without causing too much damage. Hopefully.

    I think the whole “let kids do whatever they want” thing probably leads to the hook-up and party culture, too. I was always very careful despite an abusive and broken home, because my mother was very strict and authoritarian.
    Likewise my mother was very authoritarian she over did it and I had to rebel but I was rebelling with things like getting a job and making friends. My mother was introverted so she always was suspicious of other people (Charm sounds a lot like her actually :) I like her already) so she couldn’t connect with my need to meet people and make friends it took us years to get past my “rebellious” past but now I’m thankful for the boundaries she was indulgent with my evil brother and he turned out well, evil so there is a lesson I’m sure learned.

    Lol, but Im still not very accepting or forgiving of others.

    I’m slightly like that. I try to have a high standard of losing people respect because once I do is gone forever so far only three people has managed to do that in my entire life and hopefully that will be the end of my list. I think that is a good average for someone like me who makes many new friends all the time.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    This is such an interesting discussion. I’m an NF, and there were a few NT guys who fell for me. I could never really get along with them as well as my husband, whom I suspect is the only NF man I’ve ever been with. Even though I knew that the NT guys loved me intensely, the way they showed it was just… not good for me, especially the ENTJ who freaked me out with how much socializing he did with other girls.

    I have overwhelming empathy reaction where I feel the same thing as what another feels. It makes total sense now hearing you NTs describe how you get angry! I never get angry with my husband, but when I was with NT men I’d get so angry it would frighten me, and then I’d cry because I can’t hold that much anger in me. Of course that didn’t really help things, because apparently to an NT tears provoke more anger.

    These days I don’t feel anger. My husband and I never fight. We get sad at each other sometimes, then we cuddle and get better. He knows exactly what to say to comfort me and make me feel loved, and he also just knows a scary amount of everything. NF men are awesome. :)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Charm

    That sounds pretty accurate. Also, I found this link that shows the breakdown of personality types throughout the US population. ENTP women seem to be pretty rare, along with a few other types as well.

    http://www.capt.org/mbti-assessment/estimated-frequencies.htm

    I’ve also thought of something else. Over the years, men have called me all sorts of names that I find intriguing. Some of those names include:

    – Femme Fatale
    – Cruel Seductress (Some guy called me that last week)
    – Ice Queen
    – Firecracker
    – Spitfire

    What I find interesting is that all of the names imply an element of danger. Perhaps I do seem like I would stomp on a man’s heart, although I have no intention ever to do so. Whenever men have said such things, I always took the comments as jokes. I do believe, however, that all jokes contain an element of truth to them. If I do come off as a potential heartbreaker to men, maybe it would explain why my dating life is so odd.

  • OffTheCuff

    I see only female comments that express distaste for guys with high numbers.

    What!? Practically every woman here all-but salivate over men with high numbers that post, once revealed. Very predictable pattern. It almost makes me want to reveal some of my secrets, in order to get some respect out of y’all.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What!? Practically every woman here all-but salivate over men with high numbers that post, once revealed. Very predictable pattern. It almost makes me want to reveal some of my secrets, in order to get some respect out of y’all.

      No way! Are you talking about Jason? I said he was gorgeous. I suspect he has a high number because he’s gorgeous, not the other way around. I can’t think of any other high number guys offhand…

  • Jesus Mahoney

    OTC

    It almost makes me want to reveal some of my secrets, in order to get some respect out of y’all.

    We’re all ears, bro…… :)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    NF men are awesome.

    +1 :P

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Charm – other than extroverted, I have NO idea what my SO’s personality type is. I’m a little afraid to send her to a test and find out. LOL

    I thought of another thing that takes me straight to super angry: being surprised. That is why I hate, hate, hate surprises. Because, in that moment of surprise, I have to very quickly clamp down on my emotions to control them, and the only way I can do that so quickly is to get instantly pissed off. NO lie, I once knocked a buddy of mine out cold in HS because he jumped out of a closet at me, and my instant reaction was to pummel the threat. It was the last time any of the HS friends ever tried to scare me though. :P

    On the flip side, I perform very well in crises situations because I don’t let my fear or anxiety over the situation get in the way of doing what needs done. After the crises is over, I’m very likely to go somewhere alone and have a complete nervous breakdown, but I would be OK until the crises was over.

    Its funny you mention being a general. When I was researching INTJ personality traits online, I came across a description of an interview with some former Russian general who was an INTJ. He was given a hypothetical situation:

    You are in charge of a large infantry unit. You come to a minefield. On the other side is a raging battle that can only be won by your side IF you get the infantry into the battle. You have far more infantry men in your unit that necessary to win. What do you do? His reply? “Give the command to march forward.” In short, he would knowingly send many infantry men to their deaths in order to accomplish the goal of winning the battle. I was sad when I read it, because I would have done the exact same thing.

  • Passer_By

    Man, all these acronyms. Is there somewhere I can go to learn what they mean? I’m thinking ENTJ might be some sort of ear, nose and throat subspecialist.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    OffTheCuff, I don’t think promiscuous men are saliva-worthy. My husband was never promiscuous and has a low count, and he’s the most awesome man in the world to me.

    No offense to men who have bedded a lot of women, but they just seem somehow… off. They usually don’t have their bodies connected with their hearts/spirits, which doesn’t matter to most but matters a lot to me.

    I think I would have screened a lot harder and had a lot more difficult time if my husband had a phase in his life where he bedded a ton of women casually. He actually had a long celibate phase, and knowing that makes me want to give him way more. :P

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’m thinking ENTJ might be some sort of ear, nose and throat subspecialist.

    ENTJ sounds like lockjaw.

  • Charm

    @Hope

    lol, yea this is why I can’t date NFs or SFs. They are too emotional for me, it just get on my nerves and nothing will ever get accomplished because Ill never fill their emotional needs and they will never fill my unemotional ones.

    Im glad you found another NF that makes you happy. Im sure youll probably be a good parent and hopefully you get a child with a feeling function, though an ENTJ child to two INFJ parents would make my day.

    @Sassy

    - Femme Fatale
    – Cruel Seductress (Some guy called me that last week)
    – Ice Queen
    – Firecracker
    – Spitfire

    Translation: You’re too much for me to handle. Thats what it always means. I’ve found that men much older than me aren’t put off at all, so when I actually do start looking for another LTR it will probably be with someone 4+ years older and Ill probably look for marriage in the 5+ years older range. Men our age are still pretty immature. Again, I’ve had other NT men admit they did the same thing in their early late teens early 20s even though they had nothing in common with most girls.

    I too believe there is always truth behind a joke, and maybe I do come off as a potential heartbreaker, but I certainly don’t just treat people like crap for no reason. I’ll give you a very well thought out and rational reason why I broke up with you. Unlike SF women who will try and slither out of it without hurting anyones feelings. Like I said, the emotional vulnerablility that a lot of women show makes them easier to bond with. Generally when a woman likes a man and has bonded with them it is harder for her to break the bond even if things go bad. (Ex. girls who won’t leave a relationship even when they guy treats them poorly because they “love them”.)

    In my case specifically, I can walk away from a bond I’ve formed with someone rather easily if they violate it in some way. I won’t make an excuse for them regardless of how long we’ve been involved. <—thats probably the most unsettling part. I think that NT men can do well with NF ST and NF and sometimes SF women, while NT girls generally fit best with other NT guys…which are pretty hard to come by.

    I too get tired of being people put off by me. I can't see what Im doing wrong. Im pretty normal…from my point of view. But all too often I get bombarded with the "I thought you were very intimidating when I first met you", "you seem very unapproachable when I first met you" and the like. People have no idea how much I hear that shit. Over and over again. Its exhausting. Its never my intention to intimidate, but people never take that into consideration. After a while it bogs you down a bit.

  • Cooper

    OK.

    Someone explain NF, NT, SF, ENTF, and ENTJ.

  • Passer_By

    That would be E-TMJ – Electronic TMJ induced by the internet.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    That would be E-TMJ – Electronic TMJ induced by the internet.

    The only known cure of which is a RLBJ — Real Life Blow Job.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    LOL. I just found this list of “stressors” for INTJ people at the link Sassy posted:

    INTJ
    dependent people
    small talk
    indecisiveness
    repetitive work
    details
    doing things in a rush
    public speaking
    constant turmoil
    noisy environment
    large groups for too long a time
    authoritarian leaders
    dealing with incompetence

    that is SO freaking accurate its kinda funny. Every single one of the things on this list gives me trouble to one extent or the other. I’m mostly over public speaking, but I have to prep myself (internal pep talk) to get the job done. Authoritarian leaders drive me nuts, which means I could never in a million years work for myself. And some noisy environments are OK. After all, I have been in several rock/metal bands. It doesn’t get much noisier than that. :P

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Man, all these acronyms. Is there somewhere I can go to learn what they mean? I’m thinking ENTJ might be some sort of ear, nose and throat subspecialist.

    Maybe Susan should have a post just to find out our readings I’m getting the feeling that there is a high concentration of “outliers” here. So we can reclaim our “special snowflake” title. “See?! Science support our claim!” :D

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Anacaona – I have no doubt at all that I am “special”. The thing is, special means different things to different people. ;)

    And I still maintain that HUS is the home of the outliers. Or, at least its mostly the outliers that post to the threads. :P

  • Charm

    @Passer_By

    Search Myers Briggs Test online and youll figure out what were all talking about.

    @Ted

    I get SUPER pissed off when someone surprises me. It could be a good surprise and Id get pissed off. I don’t like surprise parties, I would punch someone in the face if they ever proposed to me in public, I really hate practical jokes and wouldn’t laugh and would devise the most evil way to get back at the person. Surprises of any kind send me over the edge pretty quickly so I warn people not to do it because Im not going to fake being okay with it. If I ever walked into a dark house and the lights switched on and everyone yelled “surprise”, I’d turn right around and leave with no apologies.

    Re battlefield

    Thats the true nature of the NTJ. I would have tried to come up with a way to minimize the death toll but if I couldn’t those lives would have had to be lost. The fact is that people sign up for war and know that they could lose their lives so it shouldn’t be a surprise to them if they die or get hurt. Cold, but true.

    Lastly, I too do very well in dire situations. When everyone else is freaking out I can oddly enough remain very calm. I might get pissed at all the emotional freak outs around me because I’d be saying “Calm the fuck down” and they probably wouldnt be able to but generally I just go ahead and take care of what needs to be done. If something bad happens my brain flips a switch and I spring into action. I don’t go into emotional shock. My feelings about it are thrown to the back burner until shit get taken care of. Again, another reason I dislike feelings. Emotional people freeze when something terrible happens. Their the ones in shock when everyone else is running like hell.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Charm, I think parenting actually has a large role in shaping a child’s personality. My mother-in-law is very close with my husband, and she is also INFJ. Her husband is ENTJ, so my husband’s “public persona” can seem like ENTJ sometimes, but deep down he’s a big softie, and I love it.

    My mother is a very cold and narcissistic INTJ, and I did not like her parenting style. She never demonstrated affection, and only demanded perfection, yelled at me a lot, and was needlessly cruel. I fantasized constantly about running away from home or killing myself starting from when I was 10. You can be sure we won’t be raising our kids like that. I was lucky that my grandparents raised me until I was 10, because I had a good foundation of knowing what a loving and joyous relationship looked like.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Charm

    I know where you are coming from, believe me.

    The boyfriend I had before my most recent ex broke up with me because he said I didn’t open up to him emotionally. I still, to this day, have no idea what the heck he wanted out of me. I told him I liked him and I thought I was affectionate towards him. Perhaps I needed to cry in front of him or be needy. Maybe that was the type of emotion he was accustomed to from women in his past. The fact that I wasn’t that way may have alarmed him. It couldn’t be helped really. As an ENTP, I think like a man.

    On another note, what exactly does a woman do to be seen as a “Femme Fatale” or “Ice Queen” by men? Am I doing something subconsciously that is signalling it?

  • Charm

    To tell all you guys the truth I wouldnt be surprised if most of the regular commenter on here were NF and NTs, which make up 25% of the population.

    The SFs that post here are usually the people who get really pissy when you give a logical reason for disliking a certain behavior that they probably engage in. Why? because they take everything personal. Everything. Its obnoxious.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I just looked it up. Most people are S’s. So we’re all pretty much outliers in that regard.

  • ENTP

    I’m a male ENTP, I absolutely love it. Love being an ENTP. It’s the best type for sure ;)

  • WarmWoman

    @J

    My definition of promiscuous would be a woman I know that has slept with over 50 men. I suspect her to be someone that won’t be able to bond in a long-term relationship. One of the reasons why I gave up casual sex was because I wanted my brain to associate sex with love and emotional attraction.

    Jesus-My parents were also indulgent and still can be today. They are always offering to provide financial support and shower me with material things, which is why people say “Gosh, your parents are so nice!”
    I wouldn’t call them the “Do whatever you want” type of parents. They were controlling and restrictive in other ways. I do suspect there’s a catch to the gifts and the “We will take care of your bills! Don’t worry.”

  • Tom

    JM
    This what you don’t get. For some people, it does.

    ___________
    yeah I understand some people confuse sex with love. I dont think that is what you meant. Didn`t you mean some people need to be in love to have sex?..There is a difference. I have no problem with people who need love to have sex.
    I know guys and some women who think just because a person has sex with you, a relationship is bound to follow.. Not true, as you know.

  • Tom

    JM
    Wait, do you mean my current gf or my ex who I described above?

    Seems I was confused as to who you were talking about.

  • Charm

    @Hope

    Yea, you’re probably correct. I generally don’t click well with SF types but most of my family members are of that type so I can usually talk to them and understand them. That being said, this is also why I dislike the type. They are too short sighted for me and they tend to into pleasure seeking too often. Im sure this environment made me just a bit more laid back, because when around other NTJs I can become very unfeeling.

    I also dated an ISFP and he was a big ass man child and very submissive, but around other men and women publically he was a “mans man”, which I think he got from his dad.

    @Sassy

    Re femme fatale

    Id bet its probably your logical “male” brain combined with your looks. You’re extroverted so you’re probably confident and you’re very emotionally stable and logical so you aren’t easily manipulated. Like men on here have said time and time again, most men look for a baseline of intelligence. <—im still trying to figure out what the hell that means. Anyway, you're probably above that base line and naturally driven to gain and consume more knowledge, which isn't that associated with women. Most women who happen to be sensors can be very intelligent but they generally don't go below the surface. Intuitives like to dive very deep into things and explore all the options and this is spread throughout their interactions. You probably give off an air of complexity combined with attractiveness that puts you in the femme fatale box. I know when I read the femme fatale descriptions on Roissys blog, the Alpha amazonian fit the EST and ENT woman very well. Though some INTs and ISTs can also be put there as well.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Sassy – “Perhaps I needed to cry in front of him or be needy. ”

    Not exactly, but yes, he was probably looking for displays of relatively raw emotion from you. For me, crying obviously doesn’t work well, but I’m guessing your version of “needy” probably contains some of the behaviors I would be looking for. I like a woman to be a little clingy and needy towards me on occasion. It makes me feel (see, I do have feelings!) needed. I also expect a pretty healthy does of empathy from my SO, which goes contrary to how I operate, which is normally pretty devoid of emotion. I think that is exactly WHY I like that my SO is more emotional and empathetic. I see empathy as a very feminine trait, so I value it in a partner.

    I understand you issue here, as a “thinker” myself, I don’t show a lot of emotion most of the time. I do, however, show a great deal more emotion to my SO than any other human on the planet. And, I had to learn to allow myself that luxury, for lack of a better term. SHE needs to feel that from me in order to feel connected. And, for me, it is a much needed rest from having to keep a tight reign on how I feel. It takes a great deal of trust though, and I still find it a bit scary…

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    yeah I understand some people confuse sex with love.

    No, you don’t understand. There is no confusion. For some people, sex IS an expression of love.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    Seems I was confused as to who you were talking about.

    Yea, that was my ex.

  • Charm

    @Sassy

    I forgot to add:

    Ice queen probably means that your face isn’t very emotionally expressive. People can think Im upset or mad when Im simply sitting somewhere quitely minding my own business. I can’t figure out for the life of me what it is they see. Im assuming its when Im thinking about something not paying attention to my facial expression. Like I said, many women are Sensors and emotional so men are used to that. American men just love “bubbly” girls. just love them. When a woman isn’t bubbly or outwardly warm or emotionally expressive people in this country seem to not be able to compute it. I don’t get it. I can see kindness in people with even the most intense of gazes.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I do suspect there’s a catch to the gifts and the “We will take care of your bills! Don’t worry.”

    Yea, in your situation, I’d say that’s likely.

  • Tom

    Ted
    Do you, Tom, as a man that has had casual sex and has no issue separating sex and love, feel as deeply about your mate in a LTR as I do? It is a question neither of us can answer, because we cannot KNOW how the other person feels.
    ______________
    Well let me put it this way. I was married for 24 years. She was a very inexperienced woman sexually. I loved her dearly. I now have a woman who is experienced sexually. I love her just as much as the first one. I really do not see how love can have degrees of depth. I love with all my heart. That is all I can say.

  • Charm

    @Ted D

    See thats the thing most men don’t get about NT women. We do need you. Because of that, if were in a relationship with you it means we want you.

    Plus when ever I think about my “shit test” its generally a lot longer and more grueling then most other womens. Most men wouldn’t make it past the first 5 mins. I take my time in dating. I scrutinize the hell out of the person I am considering. Its never on a whim. People get put off by that, but the reality is that women shit test to find the man that is right for them. Mine aren’t intentional and are very subconscious, but when I think about it, it is designed to find someone who is as strong as me in certain areas that I can’t compromise in. Thus that guy would probably be another NTJ.

    I can’t allow myself to need someone until they show me they are very reliable. I don’t trust that easily and people generally dont measure up to my standard of being reliable. I know that sounds harsh, but it is what it is.

    If a man can pass that shit test with flying colors, generally Ill allow myself to “need” him because he can be trusted. Im not naturally needy, but if I do decide to lean on someone I have to make sure they can hold me up.

  • Charm

    Don’t need you*

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Sassy, remember the conversation we had about men wanting women who aren’t confrontational and competitive with their intelligence? Men also want women who are emotionally demonstrative in a positive way. It’s the fundamentals of girl game. You’ve got the first part of it down pat, but not the emotions part.

    Most men don’t like clingy, weepy, dramatic, and desperate women who whine “I can’t live without you!” every five minutes. What they want is a woman who is going to give them good feelings, and that means you have to be quite emotionally aware and know how to generate these good feelings. You probably know how to flirt to get men to feel good, but in a long-term relationship you need a little more softness.

    Men (straight men) don’t want to date their male buddies. They wouldn’t go to other men for sex, nor would they go to other men for comfort and nurturing. These are the essentials of what men look for in a relationship. If you give plenty of hot sex (alpha female traits), that might satisfy them for a while, but eventually without comfort and nurturing (important beta female traits), they will feel like something is missing.

    You don’t have to cry to a guy to make him feel comforted, nurtured and loved. You can look deep into his eyes while smiling at him, tell him how much you care about him, and how much you enjoy being with him. Does this sound like something you would never do? Well, it’s not hard to do.

    Be genuine, be happy to see him, be full of joy to be around him, and tell him that you love him with words. Say “I think about you, you know” every now and then. Say “You’re wonderful” when you feel it. Don’t hold it all in, because men are not mind readers, nor are they the best at reading subtle body language (particularly NT men).

    The little feminine touches we bring to a man’s life do add up and make a difference. When he’s had a bad day, say “You can talk to me about this” and rub his neck and shoulders. When he says he’s feeling a bit insecure, say “Why would you feel insecure? I feel so much for you” and kiss him.

    Obviously you can’t be fake, but if you really do feel these things, you should show them. The most beautiful melody that is sitting on a sheet of music won’t be heard; you have to play it and show it to feel the effect of its beauty. Emotions are like the melody of a relationship.

  • Passer_By

    Ok, at a glance, I think I’m pretty clearly an INTP. At first I could make an argument for INTJ. Ultimately, though, my reluctance to make final decisions on anything (and resulting procrastination) until I know everything is pretty extreme, leading to procrastincation, and I am EXTREMELY deadline driven. So, I’m going with INTP. What should I know about myself?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Charm

    Interesting. I just read Roissy’s description of the Amazonian Alpha, and it does remind me of myself. I also remember taking Roissy’s attractiveness test for women, and I scored in his designated Alpha range for that as well.

    This conversation also reminded me of the fact that boys in high school nicknamed me “Amazon “.

    Hmmmmm.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    No, you don’t understand. There is no confusion. For some people, sex IS an expression of love.

    And let me just add that I think most people acknowledge this on some level. Or else our only concerns about infidelity would be pregnancy and STDs. But I can pretty much guarantee that your fiancee would be pissed off and hurt if you fucked another woman and no matter how much you assured her that the sex wasn’t “loving” and that you wrapped it up and only put it in her mouth, it’s not going to help. You can’t separate sex and love as easily as you seem to think.

  • Passer_By

    @susan
    “I can’t think of any other high number guys offhand…”

    When yohami first revealed his number, you seemed to get a little cybertingly.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      When yohami first revealed his number, you seemed to get a little cybertingly.

      You read that one wrong. I have always felt a slight repulsion towards him for that reason.

  • Tom

    JM
    I do understand.. I said,”Didn`t you mean some people need to be in love to have sex?..There is a difference.”

    I see sex as an experssion of love with in a relationship, but I also understand sex can just be physical. Some people dont see it that way, and thats ok.

  • http://thegatewayboyfriend.blogspot.com Dan_Brodribb

    I scored INFP or INFJ, depending on the test.

    Nice post, Hope (434). With me, that stuff goes a long way.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Didn`t you mean some people need to be in love to have sex?..There is a difference.

    Right, and those people want other people who feel the same way.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Time for another generalized female-to-male definition.

    Female definition of clingy: crazy guy crying he won’t live without her, stalking her and standing outside of her window in the middle of the night trying to look inside.

    Male definition of clingy: tells him she is in love with him, can’t get enough of him, clings onto his arms and won’t let go whenever they’re out in public.

    Male definition of crazy = approximately female definition of clingy.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Yeah Susan. Yohami is an NF guy I can talk to on an ideas level, but he’s really repulsive on a visceral level due to his number.

    I’ll be having the u/s tomorrow, yeah. Super nervous!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ll be having the u/s tomorrow, yeah. Super nervous!

      All our positive energy goes with you!

  • Tom

    JM
    And let me just add that I think most people acknowledge this on some level. Or else our only concerns about infidelity would be pregnancy and STDs
    _______________
    Its not called making love for nothing…..lol
    An affair involves broken promises. A broken trust. Sex is something that I have with my fiance that I do not have with any of my present female friends. It is something very special, just between us. A woman would be very jealous of emotions that might be created in an affair, most guys are more jealous of what took place physically.
    A woman will ask, do you love her? a guy will ask, did you fuck him?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Its not called making love for nothing…..lol

    That’s my point. But if you don’t care about the people you’re fucking or they don’t care about you, then it kind of IS called making love for nothing.

  • Charm

    @Hope

    Yes, I get “girl game”, but guess what? Its not who I am. If I did what you’re suggesting it would be to conceal a part of my personality that will only turn around and rear its until head later on. I challenge peoples opinions, thoughts, and beliefs. Its just how I am. I can understand men not liking it, but it is what it is. Im not changing that to get a man, because Ive conversed with quite a few who actually dislike women who never challenge them back and get bored quite quickly. This is not to say that I one up people or try to make someone look stupid. But if a person (male or female) makes a claim about something, they had better be ready to back it up or shut the hell up. I tend to come across people who don’t like to be challenged, and my feeling is that they are closed minded and ignorant. They don’t ever want to be questioned and aren’t open to it. If you are confident in your stance then you’d have no problem holding your ground. I sure as hell don’t. A persons disagreement can’t hurt you and when men get butt hurt about it, it makes them look exactly as they are..weak.

    I can understand someone calling me “masculine” and thats fine but I see it as all being relative. Everyone has masculine and feminine energy. Some have more of one than the other and I think I have more masculine energy than most women, and a fair portion of men and THATS that problem. I’ve met men that I had more masculine energy and they didn’t even notice mine because by comparison theirs was greater. I think a lot of men are…for lack of a better term “soft” and Im logical, self sufficient, emotionally stable and very thinking oriented so by comparison I just look masculine. Often times I want to say: “No, Im not masculine, you’re just not masculine enough for me to look more feminine by comparison.”

    Its not like I go out of my way to behave this way. Though a lot of the women in the 21st century do and they give us a bad name.

    @Sassy

    Lol. how tall are you? Above average?

  • Tom

    JM
    Right, and those people want other people who feel the same way.

    _______
    I know, this isnt my first rodeo…lol
    I get the crowd that says sex is supposed to be within the confines of a relationship or for some people, marriage. Really I do. I have no problem with that way of thinking. However not all people think that way, millions of people do not think that way.
    Knowing how jealous some people get, I think it is great they can find others who think that way too.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hope

    The funny thing is, I feel like I already do those things with guys I’m dating. Perhaps I don’t do it enough to assure them of the fact that I actually like them. With that being said, I also admit to being honest with them about my attraction to other men, if they ask. I have also been approached a lot by other men while in the presence of men I’m dating. Those two things probably detract from the good feelings I do try to create. I essentially build up a house, then knock it over with other actions. Interesting.

    My question is, how can a woman of high SMV convince a man that she really likes him, despite the fact that she seems harder to lock down by most men? At what point does catching a pig covered in oil become doable instead of considered too much of a hassle?

  • Cooper

    I think someone needs to address the difference between comment #86, and #399.

    In #86, the opinion was men responded better to a girl who was, or seemed to be, more “pure and innocent.”

    In #399, the opinion was women salivating over “high-number” men was a “very predictable pattern.”

    Furthermore, in #310/#419 WW expressed doubts of whether a very promiscuous women would have issues with bonding.

    I’m getting the sense, that for women it’s ideal to be perceived as a “low-number” girl, and being too promiscuous has it’s risks. (low=good, high=bad)
    As for men, “every woman all-but salivate over men with high numbers” (#399) (low=bad, high=good)

    With the exception, of course, being a lovely woman like Hope, whom adores her husbands’ low number.

    Ultimately, what I’m getting at is, what are the preceptions (or doubts) of non-promiscuous, low-numbered man? (in terms of bonding)

    ie. If WarmWoman’s suspicions are a high women “won’t be able to bond in a long-term relationship”, what would be the contrary for a man of low-numbers?

    Susan, I cited the comment#s to show that my impressions are indeed validated by others.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      Your impressions are definitely validated by others, meaning men. And some women too obviously – men don’t get to be manwhores if women reject them for promiscuity. But I maintain that many women are turned off by that. I also think it depends on where you draw the number – that may be different for individual women. 200? Gross. 100? Ew. 25? I can deal.

      What you’re really asking, I think, is will a woman be turned off if the number is 0? Or 2? I would say that depends on the age of the guy and the woman in question. For a whole host of reasons, that low number guy is going to want to go for a low number woman, and she is not going to be turned off by it – she will appreciate it.

  • Charm

    @Passerby

    I haven’t met too many INTPs in real life by they seem to be very deep and theoretical but also a bit lazy and disorganized and as we have determined from J very accepting of other peoples short comings.

  • Tom

    JM
    That’s my point. But if you don’t care about the people you’re fucking or they don’t care about you, then it kind of IS called making love for nothing.

    _____________
    dont forget @ 30% of relationships start out with sex very early on. It started out as casual and turned out to be more. Im living proof it can happen. I know it is not everyones cup of tea. Actually I was not looking for love when we met. It just happened.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Charm

    I’m 5’6″. I don’t think I got the nickname because of my height. I think it was based more on my physical appearance and aptitude for archery. I absolutely loved working with a long bow and was quite good. I beat most of the people in my archery class on target drills and competitions.

    A stacked woman wielding a bow and arrow obviously did something for the guys I knew back then.

  • http://deleted Jason

    I get SUPER pissed off when someone surprises me. It could be a good surprise and Id get pissed off. I don’t like surprise parties, I would punch someone in the face if they ever proposed to me in public, I really hate practical jokes and wouldn’t laugh and would devise the most evil way to get back at the person. Surprises of any kind send me over the edge pretty quickly so I warn people not to do it because Im not going to fake being okay with it. If I ever walked into a dark house and the lights switched on and everyone yelled “surprise”, I’d turn right around and leave with no apologies.

    You sound like a real treat to be around.

  • Charm

    Ultimately, what I’m getting at is, what are the preceptions (or doubts) of non-promiscuous, low-numbered man? (in terms of bonding)

    From my perspective, the more sexual partners a person has had the more likely they are to:

    1. get bored with their current one, especially in a marriage
    2. compare their current lover to the past ones.

    You generally can’t miss what you’ve never had. This is what I think about it. I think a lot of really high count guys in think that they are going to just be happy with that one person for the next 3 decades, but I don’t think its that simple. If sex starts to slow down, bodies start to change, your wife is aging, I think you are more likely to want to go back to what you were doing before you were committed. If you’ve fucked 50 other women you know what you’re missing. Men with lower counts don’t really know what they missed so they seem like they’d me much happier with what they have. Not to say that they don’t think about sex with other women though.

  • Passer_By

    Studying this a little more, the preponderance of women here who claim to be Ts rather than Fs is a little surprising (and the number who claim to NTs even more surprising). If they are correct, then it would seem to me that many of the women here are outliers in relation to the general female population. To the extent they are having trouble staying in relationships, I would guess that males tend to be more instinctively protective of (and perhaps more likely to bond to) SF types, even though many things that go along with that personality type will ultimately frustrate the hell out of a lot of guys. Anyway, just thinking out loud here. I could be full of it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    I think you have an abnormally high self of self-worth. I’m not saying this is necessarily bad, but… idk, I’ve known extremely beautiful women who don’t value their SMV so highly.

    I mean, you look cute and all–I’m not trying to insult–but Amazonian Alpha–really? This is how Roissy describes her: “the Amazonian Alpha inspires, in those who fall in love with her, dreams of glory, of being raised above all the ordinary people who mill around on the face of the earth.”

    I mean, it’s cool to think you’re a great catch and all, but…

  • Sassy6519

    @ Passer_By

    Studying this a little more, the preponderance of women here who claim to be Ts rather than Fs is a little surprising (and the number who claim to NTs even more surprising). If they are correct, then it would seem to me that many of the women here are outliers in relation to the general female population. To the extent they are having trouble staying in relationships, I would guess that males tend to be more instinctively protective of (and perhaps more likely to bond to) SF types, even though many things that go along with that personality type will ultimately frustrate the hell out of a lot of guys. Anyway, just thinking out loud here. I could be full of it.

    That sounds about right to me.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Tom – ” I really do not see how love can have degrees of depth. I love with all my heart. That is all I can say.”

    And that is your perception. I can easily see varying degrees of love. I certainly don’t love my buddy the same way I love my SO, or the same way I love my children. Now, we can argue that as long as she loves me with all she has, that I should be content with that. I would counter that my concern is perhaps “all she has” isn’t nearly what it should be due to her past actions. And, if the difference between all I have, and all she has is too great, then I suspect the relationship would be unbalanced, and it would probably lead to trouble. Anyone that has a casual attitude towards sex doesn’t value sex the same way I do. So as long as we have those different values, we will never see our sexual relationship the same way. The logical conclusion of that to me is: she doesn’t feel as deeply about our sexual relationship as I do.

    Lets try a ridiculously simple example. On ebay someone is selling a trinket that you and I both want. We both bid, and at some point both of us will stop bidding higher because we don’t feel like the trinket is worth the amount. You may stop bidding way before I do, because you see less value in the object than I do. But, does that really change the object at all? Nope. It is simply how we perceive the object that changes the outcome.

    To me, people that can and do participate in and enjoy casual sex simply have a lower value on sexual intimacy. They are selling low. I am holding out for a better offer, because to me, it is worth too much to sell cheaply. Because of that, people with promiscuous pasts would be selling me a cheaper version of the product I am looking for, and I’m not interested in cheap trinkets.

  • Charm

    @Jason

    Sarcasm?

    Either way, Im actually a pretty good person. But I explicity state that I don’t like surprises. Its one of my boundaries I don’t like being crossed, so if someone crosses it once it has been established this is a sign of disrespect, no?

    I’ll get mad. I let people know a head of time Ill get mad. So its not like its coming out of no where. And lets suggest a stranger surprised me…I get even more mad. If you don’t know someone well enough you shouldnt be pulling that kind of crap with them. But thats just common courtesy.

  • Cooper

    @Susan
    Yeah, your getting what I’m really asking.

    What about a woman with high-numbers? Is that of more concern?

    I would assume so.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      What about a woman with high-numbers? Is that of more concern?

      Definitely. The sexual double standard really is rooted in biology. It makes sense for men to be more wary of prior sexual experience. However, in this era of STD transmission rates, casual sex, etc. I believe there can be what I call a boomerang effect. A guy can be so successful in getting sex with a lot of women that it’s a red flag.

  • Charm

    @Passer_by

    Correct. SF women are 75% of the female population if not more. So they set the rule for female behavior. ESFJ and ISFJ women are the “ideal” house wife and motherly types while ESFP women tend to be the run of the mill party girls. All in all SF women are more likely to be promiscuous, because they make up most of the population especially ESF women. But in general they usually aren’t that logical and make emotionally rash decisions causing men to be very protective of them even if they are being absolutely ridiculous.

    @Sassy

    Archery? Swweeeeet. I’ve always wanted to do that. It sound awesome!

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Charm, when I was in my teens I was a lot more like you in attitude. I still got boyfriends, but they were the types who liked my masculine attitude. When I put out masculine energy, I attracted submissive men who liked my dominance.

    People are now probably thinking, Hope used to be like that? Yes, I was always speaking my mind, bossy, and confrontatinal. My online nickname was not Hope, but BritaBitch and MissAnnThrope. I went around challenging everyone and everything. I thought that was me being “true to myself.”

    But here’s the thing. We are not born finished products, but are always changing. I was not attracted to the “weak” men that my dominant energy got me. When I consciously chose to be more submissive and feminine, I attracted much more dominant and masculine men, who were very sexy and internally strong.

    When I began to focus on being feminine as the main aspect of my personality, I felt more “congruent” and quite a bit more attractive. My self-esteem became healthier, and I was more quietly self-assured. In my opinion, the change has been nothing but good. I no longer had anything to “prove.” I simply AM good, because I don’t need to participate in the masculine contests. I stopped having conflicts, stopped being angry, and everything feels harmonious and wonderful.

    Just a sample of one, of course. ;)

  • OffTheCuff

    My question is, how can a woman of high SMV convince a man that she really likes him, despite the fact that she seems harder to lock down by most men?

    Humility? You spend so much time trumpeting up your own awesomeness here, that I wouldn’t be surprised it gushes over into your real-life interactions.

  • J

    Practically every woman here all-but salivate over men with high numbers that post, once revealed.

    Who exactly?

  • Charm

    @Hope

    Oh yea, Im sure Ill quiet down in the next few years. I already feel the change happening. But at the time you probably couldn’t be told otherwise, no? Im the same way. I know I change. I was a lot more brutish a few years ago. But Ive calmed a bit. That being said it has to happen at its own pace. Rushing it to get a date seems stupid to me. Its a journey that I have to take on my own. I know I will get there, but from the NT girls that I’ve talked to, who are much older than me, a big part of the intimidation factor never wears off. I just stopped trying to hide it. If people don’t like me, they don’t have to. I’ve never been one that wanted to be accepted by the masses.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    Modesty is a virtue and all that nonsense but its typically a requirement for relationships.

  • Passer_By

    @charm
    “But in general they usually aren’t that logical and make emotionally rash decisions causing men to be very protective of them even if they are being absolutely ridiculous.”

    You mean like blowing their top and storming out if someone surprises them? :) (just kidding – well, sort of).

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    Haha, well, I never said the description fit me to a T, but it does match up with a few of my experiences.

    I wouldn’t say that I value my SMV too much. I’m just hyper-aware of it. I wouldn’t care about it so much if my value wasn’t brought up ad nausea by the men and women I have come in contact with. Also, since it appears that my SMV will tank once I reach 30, I might as well use the cards I have been dealt to the best of my ability now. There seems to be the idea that pretty women have the easiest times in today’s SMP, but no one ever really speaks of the disadvantages (aside from myself, Susan, and a few other commenters here). At some point, it becomes a liability, just as intelligence seems to be for women as well.

    Humility? You spend so much time trumpeting up your own awesomeness here, that I wouldn’t be surprised it gushes over into your real-life interactions.

    Perhaps. Maybe I should take a video camera with me on my next date to see what I do.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy

    Showing a little vulnerability and neediness (without being a stage 5 clinger or anything) could probably go a long way.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    Yea, I totally believe that there are disadvantages to being a female 9 or 10… But do you think that you’re a 9 or a 10?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Susan, ohhh yeah. STDs are nasty business. A low count girl can get with a high count guy and contract something that renders her infertile, and there goes that. Genital herpes, for example, will ruin a girl’s SMV even if she’s only been with a few guys.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Genital herpes, for example, will ruin a girl’s SMV even if she’s only been with a few guys.

      Yes, a friend of my daughter’s contracted genital herpes the night she lost her virginity to her “boyfriend” in college. Naturally, he claimed not to have had any idea he was a carrier. Could be true, but that’s what every guy says.

      I’ve heard of girls praying for chlamydia or gonorrhea after being tested. As long as it’s curable with antibiotics, they don’t care. They’re not always lucky that way.

  • Tom

    Ted
    yes that is my perception. I loved an experienced woman and the inexperienced the same.

    Ted exactly what is it about a woman who has had some casual sex (not talking super slut here)that bothers you? Is it someone else may have enjoyed her sexually? is it she may have enjoyed him sexually? why is her value perceived to be less by you and how does it bother you?
    Im absolutely not saying you dont have the right to feel as you do, you do. Just trying to understand what it is about noncommittal sex that is such a deal breaker.
    Before you respond I will share my feelings……….I think sex is a VERY common activity here on planet earth. Something like 200 million acts of sex are taking place right now as I type this. Sex is beautiful, fun and a great way to bond with a spouse/relationship mate. I also feel sex needs to stay exclusive while in a relationship. As for casual sex, I think if a person is discriminating, not impulsive, some casual sex can not only be physically gratifying, but in some cases, for some people, emotionally fulfilling. I agree with you, the sttitude is important, but we may differ on what the criteria might be. Thats ok.

  • Marie

    Susan, forgive me if this has already been discussed in the comments field, I couldn’t find it.

    What is your take on men who tolerate or even prefer promiscuous women? If very promiscuous women are self-destructive in some way (which I do support), what does that make the men who want them? I’m talking about attractive women here, not those who can only have men with no other options.
    I have a good friend who’s had sex with a lot of guys (some only oral, she thinks that makes a difference; I don’t) and she says her boyfriend actually ‘likes it’ (he knows her number). I have heard a couple of other guys say this too, that they actually like promiscuous women. I know one reason is that young guys sometimes assume (mistakenly) that girls with a high partner count are more sexual or experimental than others. As for the rest, I really don’t know why.
    Some girls are ‘openly’ slutty, and many are at least not very discreet. If guys are drawn to girls with this kind of past, an obvious party girl, what does that make them? I’ve seen guys like these whom are attractive and educated, not dumb party boys. Attracted to self-destructive girls – just destructive? Or ‘tolerant’?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marie

      What is your take on men who tolerate or even prefer promiscuous women?

      I don’t think there are many who do. Certainly here Tom is the only one. Feminist guys will, for obvious reasons. But most guys here have said, yeah, they love hanging out with sluts, maybe even dating them for a while. But only while they’re young and free. Most guys are more particular when it comes to real commitment, i.e. marriage.

      Maybe the guys have some other thoughts.

  • Charm

    @Passer_By

    Lol. I actually wouldn’t blow my top and go into a fit of rage. Its quite the opposite. Id stand there. Stare and everyone unamused and turn around and and walk away. I dont go into fits of rage. They are very very rare and are usually justified.. But generally I dont have a problem with people crossing boundaries with me, because people know that when I ask them not to do something that I mean it.

    And lets say a person likes surprises, then by all means you should do it for them, but someone doesn’t like it then doing so is generally so you can pat your own self on the back for being so awesome and “thoughful”. If you going to do something special for me, appeal to what I define as special, not how you define it.

  • J

    See thats the thing most men don’t get about NT women. We do NOT need you. Because of that, if were in a relationship with you it means we want you.

    Exactly. I can take care of myself, but I still love male company.

    I would think that men would prefer that.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Charm, well people tried to tell me to be less bitchy, and I sort of listened… maybe. It’s been so long, and I’m getting forgetful in my old age. :P

    I’m a pretty logical person, too, and have a bit of a masculine brain. So I like doing things that result in positive changes. If A, then B. If I exercise, then I feel healthier. The girl game thing might be related to that.

  • Tom

    Charm
    1. get bored with their current one, especially in a marriage
    2. compare their current lover to the past ones.

    You generally can’t miss what you’ve never had
    ______________
    Ive been confided in several times by both male and female friends who often wondered what they are missing, or missed by saving themselves. It really became an issue with some. They often wondered what it would be like to have sex with someone other than their spouse. I wouldnt be surprised if a couple of them found out.

  • Passer_By

    @Charm

    I was just flickin’ your ear a little bit – not fond of surprise parties myself. Other surprises might be nice – like, say, if my wife surprised me by bringing home a hot friend for 3-way. (Ok, I kid, again – well, sort of).

  • J

    Interesting list, Ted. My DH is an INTJ and hates all those things. As an INTP, I’d agree with all of those points as well.

  • Charm

    @Marie

    As them if they’d consider them for marriage and to be the mother of their future children and you’ll get your real answer. I wouldn’t go based off of what any young people are doing. Most young people are just living in the present. And a lot of guys admit to liking promiscuous girls….for short term relationships. Now, if those girls have all been married a while, I could understand your story.

  • Ted D

    Jason – i am exactly like Charm in regards to surprises. It isnt a choice, it is simply my natural reaction when surprised to get angry and hit things. It isnt fun at all, and since most women love surprises it has been a constant thorn.in my side my entire life.

    I can certainly be fun, but I have to be somewhere i feel safe with people I trust. For the most part, people generally think im too serious most of the time. My SO is still amazed to this day how much time I spend simply thinking about how things can go bad and what I can do to fix it if they do. When im driving i constantly look for threats around me and even go so far as to position my car in multilane traffic intentionally where i have he most evasive room to move. I spend time pondering what I would do if an EMP were detonated over Pittsburgh. And, I do indeed have a “zombie plan”.

    To me, life is serious business. Happiness is not a goal, but a welcome side effect of doing the right thing. If happiness doesnt come, it doesn’t stop me from continuing to do what I must. Expect the worst, hope for the best.

  • Charm

    @Passer_by

    Yea, I could see you getting so angry and chastising her as you grabbed both of their hand and let them to the bed room and undressed.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted,

    And, I do indeed have a “zombie plan”.

    To me, life is serious business.

    But… I mean, you understand that zombies aren’t real, right?

  • Charm

    @Ted

    Im actually really good at planning and surprising the hell out of other people through elaborate parties, but only if its something that I know for a fact that they would like. I really enjoy it too. Not the fact that it is a surprise, but because I know that going through all that would mean a lot to the person.

  • Tom

    Marie
    What is your take on men who tolerate or even prefer promiscuous women? If very promiscuous women are self-destructive in some way (which I do support), what does that make the men who want them? I’m talking about attractive women here, not those who can only have men with no other options.
    _______________
    I have no problems with women who have had casual sex. However I am not attracted to a “VERY” promiscuous woman. I think there could be issues there that were present before she statred having sex. I think very means having @ 3 or more guys a month for an extended period of time.
    I dont think casual sex = low self esteam, but when it is way over done, it may.
    You are right that a promiscuous woman doesnt necessarily have a higher libido or are more experimental, or are better in bed. Typically they dont have sexual hangups, which some guys find attractive. Obviously there are exceptions.

  • Passer_By

    My INTP stressors

    ■Incompetency in oneself
    ■The incompetence of others
    ■Small talk
    ■Being pressured to make decisions
    ■Having to make subjective decisions
    ■A lack of knowledge or pertinent information
    ■Dishonesty in others
    ■Social gatherings
    ■Implementation of ideas
    ■Routine
    ■Redundancy
    ■Groupwork

    Seems pretty accurate to me, although I would eliminate “Implementation of ideas”. I often enjoy that and get a good feeling of accomplishment, even if sometimes I overthink it before hand.

    One unfortunate outcome of these stressors is so-called “investment paralysis”, where in nothing really gets decided regarding investments to be made because I can’t possibly have all the pertinant information to my satisfaction. It’s something I have to really guard against.

    I’m not sure I have a real problem with redundancy, unless they are referring to communication (in which case it drives me crazy).

  • M3

    Jesus said

    “But… I mean, you understand that zombies aren’t real, right?”

    Strange.. wasn’t your namesake one? Took him 3 days, but he came back.

    I have a zombie plan. I had too much training during my incel days to instinctively shoot things in the forehead so im covered. Backup plan.. just jog around them, they’re slow.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I dont think casual sex = low self esteam, but when it is way over done, it may.

    esteam: Frustrated heat that emanates from the top of your head in front of the computer when someone on a blog misspells even the most basic words.

  • J

    Studying this a little more, the preponderance of women here who claim to be Ts rather than Fs is a little surprising (and the number who claim to NTs even more surprising).

    I think the mere act of commenting on a ‘sphere-related blog self-selects for NTs/nerd girls.

    To the extent they are having trouble staying in relationships, I would guess that males tend to be more instinctively protective of (and perhaps more likely to bond to) SF types, even though many things that go along with that personality type will ultimately frustrate the hell out of a lot of guys.

    Which really weirds me out because I would think NTs would be great company, low maintainance GFs for most guys. I was pretty hot looking back in my single days, but surprisingly less popular than one might imagine, largely because of my NT personality I think. OTOH, men who like me, really like me–even now.

    Anyway, just thinking out loud here. I could be full of it.

    No, I’m intrigued by what you said.

  • Lokland

    Zombie plan: shotgun + four wheeler + down with the sickness on uber loud

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Am I the only one here not prepared for an attack of the living dead?

  • J

    @Charm

    I haven’t met too many INTPs in real life by they seem to be very deep and theoretical but also a bit lazy and disorganized

    Yeah, I am that too. So is my INTP older son. He is so brilliant but lazy and scatter-brained. My younger son is an INTJ like DH. He’s not as bright, but when he decides to “go for it,” nothing stands in his way.

    and as we have determined from J very accepting of other peoples short comings.

    Yeah, but it’s more like resignation than approval. People are a-holes sometimes. What can you do?

  • Cooper

    @lokland
    Can I ride shotgun?
    I’ll be screaming like the beginning of that song
    “Ooh ah ah ah ah”

    *head bobbing*

  • Tom

    esteam: Frustrated heat that emanates from the top of your head in front of the computer when someone on a blog misspells even the most basic words.

    ___________sometymes my fingeers fly faster than my mynd

  • J

    @Passer By

    With the exception of social gatherings, which I enjoy about half the time, all that stuff drives me insane. Also, I can work in pairs; groups are too much for me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    ___________sometymes my fingeers fly faster than my mynd

    I don’t doubt it.

  • jess
  • Charm

    low maintainance GFs for most guys. I was pretty hot looking back in my single days, but surprisingly less popular than one might imagine, largely because of my NT personality I think. OTOH, men who like me, really like me–even now.

    This is very true. And yes, a lot of men might not fancy me their type and might not like me, but the ones that do REALLY do.

    Im very low maintenance as well, which I thought was a perk. And it is to NT men.

    Re INTPs

    Yes, they tend to be the brightest of the NTs but ENTJs generally are the most successful (monetarily) since they are organized and go getters and the world generally rewards extroversion over introversion. I know INTJ and INTPs tend to criticize the ENTJ type a lot but the reality is that the traits of the ENTJ are very useful. INTJs a good too except they are more risk adverse and INTPs are very doubtful which is why ENTJ tend to fair much better in fields like business. They use their intuition to make risky bets and then make huge gains.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – “Exactly. I can take care of myself, but I still love male company.

    I would think that men would prefer that.”

    As odd as it sounds considering how much I dislike dependent people in general, I actually like to feel like my SO “needs” me to some extent. I imagine it is some type of validation for me, that it gives me a purpose to be with her, or more specifically, it gives her a purpose to stay with me.

    I know men that are the complete opposite. The last thing they want is someone “needing” them. In my experience, these are the types of men that really dislike being tied down in general. I prefer to be in a LTR, as it gives me a sense of peace and purpose similar to having children. I don’t derive much if any enjoyment from my “career”, and frankly for me work is simply a means to support my family. It is my personal life I derive my meaning from, and because of that I like to feel that I am doing something positive for them.

    That being said, my SO needing me can be as simple as relying on me for emotional support, a shoulder to cry on, a second opinion, hell just handing me a jar she can’t open works for me. I’m not looking for a stage 5 clinger, but I’d like to think that if I were to die tomorrow, she wouldn’t simply continue to “take care of herself” the way she did yesterday.

    Tom – I wish I could easily put this into words, but honestly I’ve been here at HUS for the better part of a year and I don’t think I’ve managed it once in all my posts. But, lets see:

    “Ted exactly what is it about a woman who has had some casual sex (not talking super slut here)that bothers you? Is it someone else may have enjoyed her sexually?” – Yes. and more to the point, the fact that the man in question, if he even remembers her at all, remembers her as a cheap/easy/quick/great lay. I don’t give a rats ass what people think about me, but the thought of people thinking badly about my SO, my children, or my friends makes my blood boil.

    ” is it she may have enjoyed him sexually?” – Yes. and the fact that even though she “loves” me, she thought he was hot enough to fuck WITHOUT the prerequisite of love. And this doesn’t change if she thought I was hot enough to fuck without love at first by the way.

    ” why is her value perceived to be less by you and how does it bother you?” The million dollar question… I don’t value HER any less, but my perceived value of her sexuality is indeed less. Why? Well the more people she shared it with, the less value it has for each person. Its the lock and key thing I saw posted here somewhere. A key that opens many locks is valuable. A lock that opens for many keys is not. I realize that is a scarcity mentality. But, the entire reason for NOT being promiscuous is to increase that scarcity value. If I have only had sex with two people, the act of granting them access to that level of intimacy means more than if I had sex with 20. Because, if I had sex with 20 people, my threshold for who I deem worthy of my sexuality must be lower than the person that only had sex with two people.

    It isn’t really about the ACT of sex. It is about how easily you allow others to access the most intimate parts of your being. It is how low you set the threshold for getting naked and vertical with someone. Call it conceded if you want, but MY intimacy is worth far more than any one night stand or FWB situation. When I decide to become intimate with a woman, it is a culmination of a process that means I have decided she is indeed worthy of having all of me, heart, mind, and soul. Not because she is flirty and has a nice ass.

    I get that sex feels good and is fun. I love how it feels and enjoy it just like most everyone else. The difference is: for me, those are happy side effects of sex, not the entire purpose of it. The purpose of sex in my relationships is to form and foster the closest bonds possible between my SO and I. The fact that we find it fun and that it feels great is, as I implied above, a great bonus, not the goal. To me, people that have sex for the fun and pleasure of it are simply looking at sex from a very shallow perspective. Or, as I put it before, selling cheap.

  • J

    Yohami is an NF guy I can talk to on an ideas level, but he’s really repulsive on a visceral level due to his number.

    In addition to being completely confused by his posts, I was also repulsed by his number.

  • J

    As odd as it sounds considering how much I dislike dependent people in general, I actually like to feel like my SO “needs” me to some extent. I imagine it is some type of validation for me, that it gives me a purpose to be with her, or more specifically, it gives her a purpose to stay with me.

    Then I think we found an area where you are not an outlier; most men are with you on that score.

    I know men that are the complete opposite. The last thing they want is someone “needing” them.

    My DH is like that. If I want to piss him off, I’ll act needy, have him open a jar, ask him to do something I can do on my own, etc.

    In my experience, these are the types of men that really dislike being tied down in general.

    I can see that. DH, OTOH, is very loyal and likes commitment, but he hates stupidity and helplessness. He is the outlier here.

  • Charm
    Yohami is an NF guy I can talk to on an ideas level, but he’s really repulsive on a visceral level due to his number.

    In addition to being completely confused by his posts, I was also repulsed by his number.

    I agree. Though, I thought it was a bit sad. This is what the world has come to…..

  • Charm

    lol…blockquote fail

  • J

    @Passer By

    http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP.html

    @Charm

    Yes, we INTPs are the simultaneously the brightest and the least likely to succeed. Dreamers, every last one of us. A waste of gray matter sometimes. *sigh*

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    JM – “But… I mean, you understand that zombies aren’t real, right?”

    Of course. But, any good “zombie plan” would work in most massive catastrophic type situations. It is only a “zombie” plan because my friends and I tend to sit around talking about it when we are drinking. What we are really doing is preparing for any kind of massive event, for instance the EMP blast I mentioned earlier.

    Let me give you a small glimpse into the rabbit whole. Several of my close friends maintain “friendly” relations with guys that are, lets say, avid gun collectors. The primary reason? If shit ever hits the fan, we need to know where we can get our hands on lots of guns and ammo quickly. One of my closest friends has the equipment to reload casings and even do repair work on most firearms. My SO is a medical professional, as are several other people in our circle of friends. I and a few others have backgrounds in electronics, communications including satellite, and engineering. Hell I have an amateur radio license that I keep current “just in case”. All of us have at least a small stockpile of canned and dry goods in our homes (including bottled water) that would support our own household for at least a straight week without resupply, and at least one has a pretty substantial collection of home canned goods that he replenishes every year with his huge assed garden. I have several computer/PDA devices that are EMP proof, including a Panasonic Toughbook and an older Windows Mobile device made to be used in the field near electromagnetic fields. And tons of computer parts stored away in the hope that I could scrounge together a few working systems in a hurry if necessary. You can even create decent EMP protection by encasing your electronic device inside a Faraday Cage.

    I can go on and on, but I think you get the picture. And yes, you may be one of the few people completely unprepared for a plague of dead people walking around.

  • Marie

    @ Charm
    So what you’re saying is that guys who say that will go against it when they marry? I suppose we’ll have to wait and see. I know promiscuous women 30+ whom are still single and I suspect will remain single. But my promiscuous friend who’s 24 is with the guy she’s been with for 4 years and they are discussing marriage. She didn’t say he is “okay” with it. She said he LIKES it.

    @ Tom
    Keep in mind I said PREFER or LIKE it. I suppose a lot of guys could be ‘okay’ with it. I think the large amount of men out there in relationships with very promiscuous women or married to women whom were very promiscuous in the past are simply unaware. They might think she was ‘a bit slutty’ in her college years, but is unaware of how bad it was. Women lie, and men buy it.
    I didn’t talk about casual sex in general. In this day and age, most young people have had casual sex at some point. At least those from bigger cities, those I identify with. People have different opinions of what is promiscuous, but a woman of 25 with over 30 partners is promiscuous in my opinion, and I think most people would say so, unless they’re from LA.

  • Escoffier

    “In addition to being completely confused by his posts”

    I thought I was the only one!

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Yikes Susan, that sucks for her.

    Chlamydia and gonorrhea are not always symtompatic. They can infect a woman silently and badly damage her reproductive system, so a woman can become infertile without even knowing it until way later. That’s the scary part.

    A lot of times men are silent carriers, too, showing no symptoms and think they’re “clean,” then they give something nasty to the girl. Condoms don’t protect against everything either. Another reason to be repulsed by promiscuous men who’ve bedded too many women.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    Sorry, I was out picking up my handicapped brother from work. To answer your question, no, I know I’m not a 9 or 10. If you don’t think 8s face any problems, then my point is moot anyway.

    @ Lokland

    Zombie plan: shotgun + four wheeler + down with the sickness on uber loud

    That just made me tingle in the worst way. I am definitely finding you when the zombie hordes start roaming the streets.

  • OffTheCuff

    J: “Who exactly?”

    First, my definition of “high” is not 200 or 100 or 25, but the top bracket of the CDC study which is more like 10+. And, I speak of the interactions right here. If a woman here says “poster X is hot” or “X just gave me tingles” or “X is such a catch” (note – not all women say this) you can be reasonably assured that X has at one point revealed his # to be above the median.

    It’s amusing to watch preselection in action when talking about it!

  • Passer_By

    @J

    Yeah, that rings about 90-95% true (with the other 5-10% owing to the fact that it’s impossible to fit all of humanity into 16 neat boxes).

  • SayWhaat

    Any love for ENFJs here? Lol.

    @ Cooper, my bf has a low count (higher than mine obv, but low even in the general sense) and it was a factor that was important to me before agreeing to be in a relationship.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      Any love for ENFJs here? Lol.

      Right here, from a fellow ENFJ!

  • Passer_By

    @marie, Susan

    Maybe this guy has a cuckold fetish or something like that.

  • Tom

    LOL @ JM

    funny guy

  • Sassy6519

    If a zombie infestation or outbreak ever occurred, I’m not ashamed to admit that I would be the damsel in distress type. I would probably be too freaked out to do anything proactive. I’d saddle right up to the nearest young guy and cling to him for dear life. I couldn’t even get through playing Left for Dead 2 without crying.

  • Passer_By

    As an INTP, I am going to go home tonight and formulate a very complicated and brilliant zombie plan which I will unable to implement.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As an INTP, I am going to go home tonight and formulate a very complicated and brilliant zombie plan which I will unable to implement.

      LMAO

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    My husband has a huge ammo stock and a couple of guns, including a civilian assault rifle. I have a gun, too. I know how to use it becase he taught me.

    We have some food stores and supplies, but really, if doomsday really hits, I would rather die in my sleep than try to survive. I’m not very fond of crappy living conditions, even though I’ve lived it and could live it again.

    I’m not the easily breaking down type. I calmly walked to the cab by myself to get to the hospital when I was bleeding to death. I didn’t start crying about the news of my stillbirth until everyone else except my husband was out of the hospital room.

    So being girly does not automatically mean weak and helpless. I’m a tough little cookie. Or something. It’s probably because I’ve just been through some crap.

  • J

    Esco #512

    Nah. It was really disconcerting for me to read his posts. I could recognize all the words, but the concepts made no sense to me. After a while, I just stopped reading them.

  • J

    As an INTP, I am going to go home tonight and formulate a very complicated and brilliant zombie plan which I will unable to implement.

    Great idea. I shall devote some time tonight to thinking about that and then abandon the idea after throwing up my hands.

  • Charm

    @Passer_By

    Lol, its okay. Ive heard that the reason that the INTP and NTJs get along so well is because the INTP can think up some really awesome shit and the NTJ will gladly bring their plan back down to earth and let them know what is possible and what hasn’t been yet invented…probably by an INTP.

    @Marie

    I dont doubt that some men like it. There are exceptions to every rule. But someone theoretically being able to stomach something is fine until a man has to stand face to face with the many men that have screwed his gf/fiance/wife. How long does that line have to get before it starts to piss you off after a while?

    The one that is 30+ could get married tomorrow. There are plenty of lower betas, and omegas that would take her gladly, she probably thinks she can do better. Sadly she can’t. She wasted her youth and thats what she gets. In the words of EarthWindandFire “Thats the way……of the world.”

    I know that I can put up with that crap and would probably be attracted to a man like Hopes husband or Ted as they weren’t impressed by that type of behavior. Being unimpressed alone would separate any man from the pack in a heartbeat. I imagine there are a fair portion of guys out there like that but they hide so they dont face any judgement.

  • J

    OTC #515

    Yeah, I agree. I don’t think 10 is repulsively high to most women, especially in these days of later marriage. OTOH, I’ve never cybertingled myself, so…

    That is not to say that there aren’t men here that I like as people, though the men I like here tend to be in stable relationships.

  • Charm

    can’t* put up with that crap

  • Charm

    Re Zombie plan

    Noooooo INTPs dont abandon the plan. It can be implemented. Believe in yourself. Thats what ENTJs do. We blindly have faith in ourselves and the shit oddly enough pays off.

  • Charm

    @Sassy

    Re Left for Dead 2

    Lol, the horde scares the shit out of me. And all the special zombies. You never know where the hunter is until the mofo is on your back attacking you. And the boomer just ruined you damn day when you were almost to the checkpoint.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Charm

    Oh, I totally know what you mean.

    The weird thing is that I’m generally a levelheaded person. I’ve been in a few medical emergencies that have involved me helping other people. I kept my cool, did what I needed to do to help them, and everything went smoothly.

    I just know all that levelheadedness would fly out of the window with zombies. An army of reanimated corpses chasing after me just freaks me out. I’d rather have a man by my side who knows how to shoot a gun (I’ll handle a crossbow or longbow) and who can keep me focused. If he needed to slap some sense into me to calm me down, I’d be cool with that. As smart as I am, I know to let a man lead a human militia. I’d help in any way that I could, but I wouldn’t dare be the one to lead anyone during something like that.

  • Charm

    @Sassy

    Id take the utmost pleasure in kicking the ass of so many zombies. Though I agree with Hope, Im not to fond of living in a world that is ending. I might just go ahead and kill myself. But If I didn’t Id go renegade on those mofos. Though the one thing I hate about zombie apocalypse is that there is always one fucking person that makes an emotionally rash decision that endangers tons of people. If your husband gets turned into a zombie, kill his ass, this goes for your children and other family memebers to0. A zombie apocalypse is not time to be human. Its the one time where relying on animal instinct will keep you alive.

    I just hate that game because it I dont like surprises. Those zombies always sneak the hell up on you. Always.

  • Passer_By

    @charm
    “Id take the utmost pleasure in kicking the ass of so many zombies”

    It all sounds exciting and gratifying until you get your brains eaten.

  • J

    I pity the zombie that screws with my family, srsly…Other than that, I really don’t judge zombies.

  • Emily

    >> “Am I the only one here not prepared for an attack of the living dead?”

    Nope! Zombies are boring. I’d be so screwed if they tried to take over.

  • Jason

    Charm,

    Sarcasm?

    Either way, Im actually a pretty good person. But I explicity state that I don’t like surprises. Its one of my boundaries I don’t like being crossed, so if someone crosses it once it has been established this is a sign of disrespect, no?

    I’ll get mad. I let people know a head of time Ill get mad. So its not like its coming out of no where. And lets suggest a stranger surprised me…I get even more mad. If you don’t know someone well enough you shouldnt be pulling that kind of crap with them. But thats just common courtesy.

    Yes, sarcasm. As you’ve stated yourself, just the way you post comes off as very masculine and it is off putting to me at least. OTOH, Hope could probably make the same point as you and it would come across much better in my eyes. But you say you understand the value in being more feminine, and you are working on it, so I can appreciate that sentiment.

  • WarmWoman

    @Cooper

    I’m not sure if this has to do with your comment, but I can think of advantages of dating a male virgin or a man with a low number. You can teach him how to do sexual things the way exactly how you like. Some men with a high number assume that all women are the same, and a woman can either keep her mouth shut or redirect him (which he may take offense).

    As for men that tolerate promiscuous women, I only knew one. He was one of the most misogynistic and sociopathic men that I have met. He was also promiscuous himself. I suspected he had issues with bonding as well.

  • Emily

    It’s not that girls prefer guys because of their high numbers. It’s just that the guys who girls prefer tend to have high numbers because they have more options. The high number is a symptom, not a cause, of their attractiveness.

  • Ted D

    Well now. I guess my friends and I arent as far into crazy militia territory as I thought. Good to know. ;-)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Marie
    There is a term for this guys in the manosphere. “Captain-save-a-ho”. Who says men don’t have “I will change her/She is just misunderstood” fantasy? Oh boy they do.

    @Charm
    I had a serious case of the bitchface (maybe that is why I like Kristen Stewart so much) while growing up. I killed with smiling and I learned to smile a lot. Now I don’t think I have more than two pictures where I’m nto smiling. You should try it is actually easier in the muscles face. Only 14 to smile and like 72 to keep the frown. You will look better and younger longer.
    Funny enough my husband is also like you he hates surprises oh so much I guess for the same reasons you and Ted do. I’m cool with that I didn’t pretended to marry my clone so for me marriage is a journey of self discovery and discovering him and then discovering my kids. But you probably wouldn’t like me till you see me handling a stressful situation. I’m very emotional with positive feelings like smiling, singing to myself, telling compliments so people assuming the worst of us “emotional types” but with hard situations and stress I’m very capable of keeping my head cold and collected and I had done it before with much success and to much people surprise that were thinking I was going to end up a mesh on the floor. “We will conquer this or die trying, tears are for the ending” is my motto, YMMV.

    @JM
    It seems that you are the only one. Hubby has his ZombieApocalypse plan ready to execute. Me loves a prepared man. Let’s hope your girlfriend has more sense than you. :p

    As an ENFJ I can say that I needed my husband if I didn’t need a man I wouldn’t had married at all. But I need him and I’m happy that I do. He does likes that I’m not totally clingy but he likes my “flares of clinginess” like when I spontaneously remember something nice he did for me and I kiss him and tell him how good husband he is and I totally mean it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    It seems that you are the only one. Hubby has his ZombieApocalypse plan ready to execute. Me loves a prepared man. Let’s hope your girlfriend has more sense than you. :p

    I’ve actually never heard of a zombie plan before today. I have to admit that this conversation is making feel a bit estranged from the group.

    Oh well.

  • Passer_By

    @JM

    Neither had I, but, you know, if everyone’s doing it, I guess we’d better get with the program or get left behind.

  • Ted D

    Look on the bright side, you are virtually surrounded by a bunch of people with a zombie plan. So, although our outlier status may make this an echo box of sorts, the same social dynamics appears to make it a veritable wealth of zombie survival knowledge.

    I’m from Western PA, zombies are in my heritage. ;-)

  • WarmWoman

    @Anaecona

    “As an ENFJ ”

    So, you are the same as me? Yay, I finally can have something to relate to some of you. ;)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Look on the bright side, you are virtually surrounded by a bunch of people with a zombie plan. So, although our outlier status may make this an echo box of sorts, the same social dynamics appears to make it a veritable wealth of zombie survival knowledge.

    My husband’s said that he has a plan alright…becoming lunch. :). So JM don’t trust Ted he is probably writing down “Human sacrifice: Check” on his list of supplies :P

    @WW
    I think SayWhaat is also a ENFJ. Don’t trust my E and my F though they are 25% or with time I might turn into a INTJ. I wonder how life would be on the other side..is so close. :p

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    A zombie attack seems like a pretty low-probability event. The danger of humans turning into rhinoceri, though, must be guarded against steadfastly.

  • Ted D

    “So JM don’t trust Ted he is probably writing down “Human sacrifice: Check””

    Rofl. I did recently admit that I could relate to a general that would knowingly send men into a minefield, so this may be the best advice for the day!

    That being said, our plans don’t actually include intentional sacrifices. But, we also probably wouldn’t have a lot of sympathy for those that couldn’t keep up. And it would be a lie if I said the term “cannon fodder” never came up in conversation…

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @ExNY
    “For all we know, the (2/3)*).(50) could be women’s ‘fallback position’ when the higher number guys wouldn’t commit…”

    You’re right, in that the raw numbers don’t prove (or disprove) anyone’s preferences. So if you have any hard data that a majority of married women, or women period for that matter, are disappointed that they couldn’t land the good-looking players for relationships, please share it. I’d be curious to see the results. But if it’s true that the low-to-mid count married folks are truly happy with each other, and they’re 1/3 of the population, they certainly aren’t outliers.

    Since a solid majority of men (75%) and women (80%) have single digit partner counts, I’m not sure what speculating about an entire gender’s motivations accomplishes. There’s a vast spectrum of preferences out there. Is it fair to say that most guys who tied the knot are secretly wishing they could have landed the hot Baywatch bimbo? Let me know when they invent a mind-reading device and we’ll find out : )

  • jess

    “Definitely. The sexual double standard really is rooted in biology. It makes sense for men to be more wary of prior sexual experience”

    Despite me and other posting links to studies showing that biologically and historically women are just as, if not more, promiscuous than men.

    Do you not recall the many conversations with Aldonza, myself and others going over the same points over and over?

    There is no ethical or biological justification for the hypocritical and nasty ‘double standard’

    C’mom Susan- there is no need to keep pushing that misinformation

  • Charm

    But you say you understand the value in being more feminine, and you are working on it, so I can appreciate that sentiment.

    Yea, I for some reason seem to come in like 5 years later than other girls. When I hit puberty and they other girls were cooing over men, I didn’t get it. I didn’t get interested in men until I was 18. I’ve pretty much been on tomboy mode for the last 22 years and Im just now FINALLY growing out of it. Lol. Just now. I can feel it happening. I think now Im ready to embrace it. If that makes any sense. Before it was very foreign to me.

    But that being said, I’ll never be the pink wearing, celeb gossping, squealing, can’t open a jar of damn pickles kind of girl. Never, but Ill be more feminine then I was in the past. I feel like my femininity wisdom teeth are coming in. Im a big kid now!

  • Charm

    @Ted #549

    It would be every man for him damn self. If my life was on the line you better believe Id save my ass first. Also, if the zombies were gaining on us Id have no problem tripping someone and throwing them to them. Itd be a dog it dog world man. Id expect others to try and do the same to me.

    Sometimes you just gotta sacrifice a couple dozen to save yourself.

  • Charm

    @Anacona

    Lol, bitch face? Kristen Stewart is one of the most expression less people on the planet.

    Im not too bad though. Call my name and my expression will change instantly. I can go from looking angry to happy in a second. I’ve actually read somewhere that poeple that if you look intimidating at first but turn out to be really nice that you get more social points because people will be pleasantly surprise. So I play that card. Not intentionally, but I figure I already got one piece naturally so I might as well make a gain.

    Also, I do smile a lot. I love talking shit and bantering and laughing my butt off and stuff. When Im on a roll, I roll. But when Im alone or quiet my face goes into impassive mode.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Lol, bitch face? Kristen Stewart is one of the most expression less people on the planet.

    I keep hearing that I but don’t see it. I think she has plenty of expression and I love her acting. I guess is one of those things about faces….:/ She does has a bitchface when she doesn’t smile or when she is been traveling for twelve hours in a plane. In person she is prettier and looks friendlier.

  • purplesneakers

    Which really weirds me out because I would think NTs would be great company, low maintainance GFs for most guys. I was pretty hot looking back in my single days, but surprisingly less popular than one might imagine, largely because of my NT personality I think. OTOH, men who like me, really like me–even now.

    This rings very true to me. But I always thought it was more because of my (rather extreme) introversion. Last time I took one of the MBTI tests, I was a very strong introvert, moderately strong T, and rather weak N and J (and based on the descriptions, I’m starting to think I fit the mold more of ‘INTP’ rather than ‘INTJ.’ I can be easily swayed, and I don’t have the kind of outlook that Charm describes). Anyway I always thought there was something wrong with me because I didn’t want all the stereotypical girl stuff in a relationship (lots of flighty, bordering on ditzy behavior). I’m glad now that I’ve realized that there are ways to be feminine that are still congruent with who I am and that at least a certain subset of men apparently like.

    Cooper- I always fantasized about ‘losing’ my virginity to an experienced, hot older man. This opportunity actually presented itself, with someone I’d been dating for a while, who joked about being my ‘teacher,’ but I walked away. I don’t know his ‘number,’ but given his age and attractiveness, I’m pretty sure it was above the median. The reality didn’t live up to the fantasy– while I feel like the sex would (after the first few times) have been incredible, I didn’t want to enter into a sexual relationship where the power dynamic would have been completely in his favor. And I say that even as someone who’s pretty submissive. Also, as much as people say women in their early 20’s should look at older men and not guys in their own age range for something besides hooking up, the truth is that significant age differences (in this case, 12 years) means that he usually doesn’t take you as seriously, and sometimes sees you as a number–your age. So for all these reasons I’m seriously re-thinking my “hot older man” fantasy (*sigh*).

  • purplesneakers

    Jesus Mahoney- I know a few girls I would say are 9’s (they model, but not runway modeling. so they’re of medium height and have t&a). Based on what I’ve seen, they can have their pick of men and make them boyfriends, including the socially dominant ones. However, they’re all very extroverted and flirty and very much the social ‘norm.’

    I do think there is an effect for them that’s parallel to the one for men who sleep around a lot and get more and more dissatisfied with each partner–these girls get hit on so much that there’s just a lot more to see as wrong with each next guy that approaches.

    Anyway, they usually long-term date the richest dudes in their social circles. :P

  • Passer_By

    @charm
    “Also, if the zombies were gaining on us Id have no problem tripping someone and throwing them to them.”

    It’s like that old joke. You don’t have to be fast enough to outrun the zombies. You just have to be fast enough outrun the guy/gal next you, and if tripping that person helps, so be it.

  • Samantha

    They were clean and sober while things were good, but as soon as life got tough, which it always does, they went back to using. To me, a promiscuous past is indeed a lot like a former drug addiction. Sure you can stop having casual sex, and even believe you are done with it.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Charm and @Ted
    During Zombie Apocalipse you are not entering my bunker! :p

  • Jesus Mahoney

    jess,

    Only one of those studies provided anything more than the abstract and a preview. The one I could read, the study of students in an exclusive Bolivian school, was interesting.

    But the way in which it defined “self-esteem” was problematic for me. First of all, the researchers broke self-esteem down into 3 categories: “home” self-esteem, “peer” self-esteem, and “school” self-esteem. Then, they seemed to define each category as how the individual felt they rated in the eyes of others (at home, with peers, and among teachers). This isn’t a very reliable indication of how the individual students see themselves. One can be aware of how highly she rates among her peers and yet believe that the estimation of her peers is based on a facade.

    Finally, the researchers found a negative correlation between promiscuity and how highly students felt their parents esteemed them.

    So I think the study is flawed. Basically, all it proves is that people with better social skills are more promiscuous. Which most people would consider obvious–kids with less friends have less opportunities to hump.

  • Ted D

    Lol. We are planning to either head for an island or to northern Canada. Water and/or cold should slow zombies down considerably. Although, the book World War Z talked about zombies walking on the bottom of the ocean! Hence the discussion of Canada instead. :p

    Charm – Rolf. That is some cannon fodder right there! I will say this, as long as I’m alive and with my core group, we would do our best to remain at least semi-civil. I wouldn’t resort to those kinds of tactics until there were no other options. But, I would certainly do it if it came down to me and mine versus everyone else left. I figure that should be enough incentive for the less work inclined to pull their weight with us. ;-)

    Jess – I agree with you believe it or not. I’m tired of the double standard, but I have a solution. How about everyone stop screwing like rabbits and then men AND women will have low numbers, and there would be no double standard to speak of? No? In that case, as a person with a low number I will continue to voice my opinion that everyone with high numbers is a bad choice for anything serious. And, I don’t feel in the least bit hypocritical about it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jess,

    Also, you have to ask yourself where one’s esteem is coming from. In other words, what does one value about herself?

    For example, it’s clear that for many gamers, their sense of self-esteem is derived from the fact that they can bed a lot of women. We all recognize how unhealthy this is. The same holds true for women. If their sense of self-esteem is derived from how many guys are attracted to her, then there’s a problem–especially for a man looking to commit to her. Because if she’s used to getting her self-esteem from male attention, how can we be sure she’s not going to revert back to that tactic in moments of insecurity?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted,

    Why would cold slow them down? You’d think they’d want to jog a bit to stay warm? Plus, the body burns more calories in the cold–Canada would have hungrier zombies than Florida. They’d require more brains.

    I mean, unless they raid the clothing stores for some thermal underwear before looking for some food.

  • Tom

    JM
    For example, it’s clear that for many gamers, their sense of self-esteem is derived from the fact that they can bed a lot of women. We all recognize how unhealthy this is. The same holds true for women. If their sense of self-esteem is derived from how many guys are attracted to her, then there’s a problem–especially for a man looking to commit to her. Because if she’s used to getting her self-esteem from male attention, how can we be sure she’s not going to revert back to that tactic in moments of insecurity?
    ____________
    Good points. I think you said it right, male attention. Her new man is a male.If he gives her the attention she needs she has no reason to look else where. it is the mental state of the woman that is impoortant and the reasons she played. It is not always about a lack of self esteem . Even if it is, a good man can boost her self esteem greatly.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    Good points. I think you said it right, male attention. Her new man is a male.If he gives her the attention she needs she has no reason to look else where. it is the mental state of the woman that is impoortant and the reasons she played. It is not always about a lack of self esteem . Even if it is, a good man can boost her self esteem greatly.

    The question isn’t whether or not her self esteem is low, it’s a question of where she derives her self-esteem. In the case of a promiscuous woman, you need to ask yourself whether or not validation from one man is enough for her. For a healthy person, it should be enough, true. But if you’re trying to evaluate relationship fitness, then promiscuity would suggest the possibility that validation from one man may not be enough.

  • Tom

    Jess, of course you are right.
    Proof is in the pudding. Now that the fear of prego is not there, because of effective birth control, women have ignored the shamming that held them back and have acted more like the naturally promiscuopus male counterparts.
    Not saying that is a good thing, it is what it is.
    Trust me, if men were the ones who had to carry AND raise a baby and were constantly being shamed for “spreading their seed” they would have been a lot less promiscuous.
    If I had the possibility of having a baby, I sure as hell would not be doing anyone who wasnt a potential mate. THAT is how it was with women funtill the lasy 40 years.
    The jenie is out of the bottle, get used to it, because it will only multiply.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    Also, most men want a woman who’s self-esteem is intact. They don’t want someone who needs to feed on validation in order to maintain a sense of personal value.

    As for this:

    The jenie is out of the bottle, get used to it, because it will only multiply.

    I think that’s what men are trying to do: get used to it. In a way, I don’t think the situation is all that bad. With all the free reign that women have today, it’s easier to judge their true character. In previous eras, women were hemmed in by circumstances. Now that they’re able to choose more freely, men at least have the advantage to see which women have made good decisions.

  • Tom

    JM
    The question isn’t whether or not her self esteem is low, it’s a question of where she derives her self-esteem. In the case of a promiscuous woman, you need to ask yourself whether or not validation from one man is enough for her. For a healthy person, it should be enough, true. But if you’re trying to evaluate relationship fitness, then promiscuity would suggest the possibility that validation from one man may not be enough.

    _______________
    I agree.. Promiscuity “might” suggest the possibility of the need for validation. That is why you get to know her over time, to evaluate if she is indeed healthy or a hopeless person in need of validation. The hopless need for validation types are the ones I refer to as super sluts. It isnt the sex that they have, but the underlying esteem problems they have that forces them to sleep around. I know both types.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Jesus M – “Why would cold slow them down?”

    Because, since zombies are dead, they do not generate body heat, and will freeze solid once the temp gets below 32. Of course, spring thaw would mean hunting expeditions around our encampment or whatever we are living in.

    There are books that explain a lot of this.

    The Zombie Survival Guide and World War Z come to mind, but there are others.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Also, on a more realistic note, this:

    http://www.amazon.com/What-When-Shit-Hits-Fan/dp/1602391335

    I have an older version of this book and it has a good bit of useful information for any emergency.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Promiscuity “might” suggest the possibility of the need for validation. That is why you get to know her over time, to evaluate if she is indeed healthy or a hopeless person in need of validation

    Sure, that would be great advice if men *had* to choose between super sluts and other promiscuous women. But they don’t have to. Easier to just stick to the non-promiscuous women than to waste time getting to know whether the promiscuous women are trustworthy or not.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted,

    How can zombies burn energy to move and function w/o creating body heat?

  • Tom

    JM
    I think that’s what men are trying to do: get used to it. In a way, I don’t think the situation is all that bad. With all the free reign that women have today, it’s easier to judge their true character. In previous eras, women were hemmed in by circumstances. Now that they’re able to choose more freely, men at least have the advantage to see which women have made good decisions.
    ____________
    I totally agree.
    According to the numbers of active young people, both male and female, the “problem” is no worse than when I was in college in the 70`s. Much hubub about nothing, IMO.
    I think you and I are both concerned as to the ‘why’ they choose to freely choose..lol Any person, male or female can fall into the trap of being somewhat promiscuous. It is the why, that concerns me the most.
    I will say men who are highly promiscuous can be just as fucked up as his female counterpart. I dont buy the notion that it is because he is doing what comes naturally, that applies to women also. There are other reasons beside biology that causes the super slut, both male and female.

  • Tom

    JM
    Sure, that would be great advice if men *had* to choose between super sluts and other promiscuous women. But they don’t have to. Easier to just stick to the non-promiscuous women than to waste time getting to know whether the promiscuous women are trustworthy or not.
    _________________
    Heres the thing, you have to spend the same amount of time on ANY propective mate. You dont know if they are hiding anything from their past, you dont know if they are lying, or if there are skeletons in the closet.
    Sure it might be easier with a virgin, but not many of them to go around.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    Absolutely true. You need to spend time getting to know someone well. However, if you know from the start that there are some possible red flags, it’s easier to move on to the next girl, no?

    Also, if you’ve gotten to know the girl and you still can’t be sure whether or not her promiscuous past is a red flag pointing to possible future problems, aren’t you better off just getting out of the relationship?

  • Tom

    speaking of Zombies, the best Zombie movie of all time is the original,”Night of the living Dead”

    A great line from that movie… ”
    Bust `em and Burn `em”

  • Tom

    JM
    Absolutely true. You need to spend time getting to know someone well. However, if you know from the start that there are some possible red flags, it’s easier to move on to the next girl, no?

    Also, if you’ve gotten to know the girl and you still can’t be sure whether or not her promiscuous past is a red flag pointing to possible future problems, aren’t you better off just getting out of the relationship?
    ______________
    Sure it is easier to move on to the next woman, absolutely. But if this woman is an awesome woman, I am going to be damn sure I cant trust her before moving on. That has happened with me. A really nice woman, but there were esteem red flags, so I moved on. I think an air of desperation is a red flag indicating esteem problems.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    Of course. If she’s awesome, then you need to stop and consider what you’re doing. I don’t think any of the men here would disagree with that.

    But don’t you agree that 1. men looking for a relationship are better off seeking less promiscuous women, and 2. men should at least proceed with caution when they find out about a history of promiscuity in a woman they’re already involved with?

  • Tom

    JM
    Yup I agree, generally.
    In todays litigious society we live in, I suggest all men proceed with caution in all cases.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    Cool. I think that’s what we’re saying. There’s also the difference in values, like we talked about somewhere up-thread. But in general, that’s what we’re saying.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted,

    I believe Neil Strauss, who wrote “Game” and “Rules of the Game,” also wrote a book on how to survive doomsday scenarios.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    Just out of curiosity, do you know your Myers-Briggs type?

  • Tom

    JM
    Values are important, I dont deny that. Or I should say matching values. Value is subjective. Its kind of like religion and politcts. Not impossible to get along if there are differences, but it works a little easier if they match.
    If a personhas a set of values he/she thinks is important, it would really take a special peron of different values to attract the other, if it could happen at all.

  • Tom

    JM
    Myers-Briggs type?

    nope im not familiar at all.. Clue me in, what is it?

  • Jesus Mahoney
  • Tom

    Answered the questions.. =ENFP

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Cool. I was just curious. Thanks.

  • Tom

    enfj on the link you sent me… enfp on another site i googled…

  • Charm

    Look at that.

    Tom and Jesus share a similar type.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Tom – “Heres the thing, you have to spend the same amount of time on ANY propective mate.”

    Surely. But, if the woman you are considering already has some strikes against her, then you REALLY have to decide up front if she is even close to that awesome. My current SO has a higher count than me. Not nearly as high as many people here have posted, but my count of 5 makes just about any normal person in their 30’s look over sexed. I still maintain that had I taken the red pill prior to meeting my SO, I may very well have passed early on. I would have missed the opportunity to be with a wonderful woman, but the truth is, her past stacks the odds against me from the start. I’m already involved, so I’m willing to take the risk sticking it out. But, she is also very understanding of my concerns, has a proven track record of being willing and able to remain faithful, even when her ex was not, and has demonstrated to me that she has indeed had a change of heart regarding her outlook on casual sex.

    I do understand where you are coming from Tom, and I have to agree that on an individual level, you are mostly correct IMO. But, just because it worked out for me, doesn’t mean it will for most guys. Maybe I’m lucky, my ex-wife didn’t rake me over the coals, steal money from me, and use my children as a weapon against me either. I’d like to think its because I do indeed do my homework in regards to vetting people, and because of that I tend to only choose decent people to be a part of my life. It could also be that I’m very lucky. Since I can’t control luck, I’m going with the first explanation.

    None of that changes this simple fact: a woman (or man) with a promiscuous past is more likely to cheat and/or simply divorce down the road. Of course that is not true of every single individual in the world. But, if it is true of 75% of all promiscuous people, how willing are you to take the chance that the lovely woman in front of you is one of the other 25%?

  • Tom

    Ted
    how willing are you to take the chance that the lovely woman in front of you is one of the other 25%?
    _________
    I trust my judgement of people.
    Ive passed on women before, and I think I was right about them.
    The people who say all promiscuous people are a bad bet are about as correct as men who say all low count women are sexually inhibited. Sure some are, but certianly not all.
    There are millions of men who are married to women they think/hope are low count, and they they are not. The women over the years have showed no signs of damage. It just does not come up in a lot of relationships. Kind of ,”Dont ask, dont tell.”
    As for 75% of promiscuous people getting divorced.. Not sure I buy that, at least amoung the educated people… I might say a more liberal minded woman of today is probably not going to put up with most mens BS like their Moms did.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Tom – First off, I pulled those numbers out of my ass. please DO NOT take the 75/25 example I made to heart.

    If you are confident in your ability to screen people, more power to you. I would counter though, that your comment proves my point here:

    “There are millions of men who are married to women they think/hope are low count, and they they are not. ”

    If that is true, then obviously a LOT of men are not so good at judging people, if indeed they were/are concerned with partner counts. If not, and their wives are loyal and faithful? Great. No harm/no foul. *I* am concerned with partner count, along with a ton of other things. I used to think I was a good judge of character, and I still believe I am better than the average person at it, but here I am at 41 years old, divorced and starting over with another woman, which tells me I can certainly get it wrong. Sure, my ex IS indeed a “good” person. She didn’t dig me for alimony, she actually worked WITH me to determine what was best for our children in terms of custody, and despite our divorce we still get along quite well. But, the fact is she still divorced me, and at the time I only knew “something” was wrong, but neither of us could figure out what.

    I now know what that “something” was. But, that really doesn’t change the fact that I misjudged my ex. I thought she was the type of person that would stick it out through thick and thin, but in fact she had a “breaking point” and we found it. I still believe I am a good judge of people (after all, I’m “J” so judging is what I do) but the truth is: my divorce really shook up my faith and belief in women in general. Add to that the “red pill” and all the knowledge that comes from it, and I find myself in very unsettled territory. Toss in my risk averse tendencies, and I’m sure you can see why I am so cautious and wary. Is that fair to the thousands of formerly promiscuous women that may make me a wonderful wife? Nope. But, I am good with being selfish in this matter. I have not only myself to consider, but my children as well. So, I don’t care about fair. My only concern is MY outcome. All things being equal, I see promiscuity as a valid concern, and possibly a valid reason for disqualification. That doesn’t mean my attitude is “right and just”, but it is certainly right for me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    Values are important, I dont deny that. Or I should say matching values. Value is subjective. Its kind of like religion and politcts. Not impossible to get along if there are differences, but it works a little easier if they match.
    If a personhas a set of values he/she thinks is important, it would really take a special peron of different values to attract the other, if it could happen at all.

    So, if you agree that relationship-minded men are better off focusing on non-promiscuous women, and if you agree that shared values are an important aspect of a relationship, then it would follow that you also agree that relationship-minded women should avoid casual sex. Right?

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    /grabs a drink and some popcorn to watch this show.

    JM – nice question. I didn’t see it, but that was a good catch. ;)

  • Tom

    JM
    So, if you agree that relationship-minded men are better off focusing on non-promiscuous women, and if you agree that shared values are an important aspect of a relationship, then it would follow that you also agree that relationship-minded women should avoid casual sex. Right?
    ________________
    In general, yes, but it isnt that black and white.
    I think if a relationship minded woman IS having casual sex, she needs to understand that a good amount of relationship minded men may not want her.
    I do think there are plenty of men who will give her a chance, but her pool is smaller, for sure.
    Another idea is the number question really isnt discussed in @ half of relationships. Most men are not like me, or possibly you. Most men just do not want to know, or are afraid to ask.
    Some women see it as insecurity if a man asks, but that is not the way I see it. It is a possible red flag indentification. If I were a man in my mid thirties, and getting to know a woman the same age, and her number is under 15 or 20, I would not be very alarmed. If we were 25 and her number was @ 20, I would probably put her under the spotlight.
    Also, lets not forget a lot of men play the field until they find the one who they fall for. They might describe themselves as relationship minded too.

  • Tom

    continued…
    So yeah if it is important for a man to want a low count woman, and a low count woman wants the same in her man, then yes, they may be ideal for each other.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    I’ve decided not to ask about my gf’s number for a load of reasons. First and foremost, it’s too direct. “Courtship” is like an extended flirtation–direct and confrontational don’t work very well with either. I’d prefer to get to know her in a more natural way. Things come out in conversation with her, bits and pieces her family mentions, in a photo I might see, etc… If I couldn’t get a good sense of her that way, that I wouldn’t pursue the relationship.

    Second of all, the “number” by itself doesn’t say much. I mean, I’ve heard stories of virgins who are saving themselves for marriage that have sucked crazy dick (think “Clerks.” 37?). It could also be that the number is low but still includes some slutty acts. It could be that a high number indicates she went through a slutty period but has made significant changes in her life. The number question just begets more questions and unless you want to take the direct, “interrogation” route (which would kill a lot of attraction and intimacy), then it’s not worth it.

    Finally, it’s more important to me who she is now. Who she is now is definitely a result of past experiences, but I know my gf is a great person right now. It would pain me to know she went through a slutty period, but she’s so perfect the way she is right now, I think I’d overlook it.

    That said, if I knew she had a cavalier attitude about sex, if I knew she didn’t think sex equaled love, that would put a chink in things, that would at the very least change the way that I relate to her in the bedroom.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    JM – “Finally, it’s more important to me who she is now. Who she is now is definitely a result of past experiences, but I know my gf is a great person right now. It would pain me to know she went through a slutty period, but she’s so perfect the way she is right now, I think I’d overlook it.

    That said, if I knew she had a cavalier attitude about sex, if I knew she didn’t think sex equaled love, that would put a chink in things, that would at the very least change the way that I relate to her in the bedroom.”

    I concur. This is pretty much where I am now, although the “number” still matters to an extent. I’ve always maintained though that I am more concerned with how she got that number, than the number itself.

    Indeed your last paragraph sums up my thoughts on it. It is my SO’s current attitude towards sex that matters the most. It really doesn’t matter that once upon a time she had some casual encounters. What matters is that now she isn’t interested in anything casual, and instead recognizes and looks for the quality stuff instead.

    But, all that aside, I will still stick to my guns that for any man looking to form a LTR, formerly promiscuous women are simply a bigger gamble. Again, that is not fair to plenty of women like my SO, that had a genuine change of heart. I can’t change that fact. All I can say is, if you are a young woman and haven’t jumped on the casual carousel, think long and hard before you do. If you are a women that has already spent time riding, do whatever you can to prove you are no longer that women. I can’t promise it will help, because for me it would depend greatly on what else you bring to the table. But understand, if you want a chance with me (or a guy like me) at all, you will be starting at a disadvantage that you will need to overcome. You will need to prove your are a good risk, even though you never did anything directly to me that would make me think you aren’t.

    If that is too bitter a pill to swallow, don’t come looking for guys like me. ;)

  • Tom

    JM.
    Good for you, you have a really healthy attitude towards her.
    In my book, who she is now trumps all she did in her past (within reason, of course)
    Not sying she has a past, but whatever she has done sexual or not, has helped form who she is today.
    As you know my GF has a past. She is a wonderful person, mother, partner. She definately learned from her experiences, that the single life is not for her. I have little worries of her returning to it. Her friend showed me some emails between the two of them (my gf was aware) in those emails my GF expressed how she hated the single life and couldnt wait to find a good guy. She had lost faith in men because of a couple times she got played. She understood, most of these guys only wanted sex, while she was hoping for more. Those emails were back and forth right before I met her.
    She had been married for a little over 10 years. That went south and her next LTR also ended badly because he was a cheater. She then kind of swore off relationships for 2 or 3 years.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    ” It would pain me to know she went through a slutty period, but she’s so perfect the way she is right now, I think I’d overlook it.”

    I also wanted to add and forgot… This has been my biggest “pain point” recently. I have already “overlooked” whatever my SO did in the past, or I would have left already. But I’m finding that coming to terms with who she was before I met her has proved very problematic for me. When I find myself sitting in front of her, I can hardly fathom a time when she didn’t know her own worth. It breaks my heart that she was in such a bad place at one point that being used seemed like an improvement. The truth is, knowing where she came from and where she is now, it is ONLY because she is a quality person that she made it this far.

    I don’t know if I’ll ever be “OK” with everything in her past. We all have our ups and downs, but some of her downs may have been more than I could handle, so its hard for me to understand her point of view sometimes. It may be that I never will, and I will have to figure out how to accept that. It will take time, because I naturally distrust what I don’t understand. I’ll just need to understand her as she is now, and trust that is enough. I’ve some about as far as I can with logic and reason, and from here on in its a leap of faith…

  • jess

    Ted re 591

    Hey- Im so delighted you appear to have found a good soul mate :)

    And I hope i can put an optimistic slant on your situation because some of my university peers who had a ‘full education on carnal matters’ whilst younger are extremely faithful mothers and partners. They are in their 40s now.

    I think for most people there comes a time in their lives when they age a little, the slow down, girls get broody, guys want someone they wanna trust, love and share with.

    Few have the stamina for more parties, ONS’s and the fast life.

    I know there are the cougars and the honey traps and the unfaithful but there are still billions of people who just want someone to cherish and love.

    Thats not gonna change anytime soon.

    I think you made a wise choice and so hope it works out well..

    Tom re numerous posts (and JM too)

    Yes, thank you. Its a difficult one about esteem- there are so many ways to look at it as JM says. I get the impression that the more adventurous girls I knew appeared very confident and at ease with themselves- they went for everything in life from holidays to jobs to guys.

    The ones clearly suffering from ‘apparent’ low esteem were pretty chaste- but as JM says maybe it was a reinforcing circle of ‘low esteem, less gregarious, less friends, less sexual options- rather than an aversion to promiscuity per se.

    I aslo suspect that for some women, if they feel less attractive, this can decimate esteem and they dont want anyone to see them naked let alone have sex. That must reduce number a great deal.

    But yes i have seen girls who had ‘issues’ including poor self image that indulged in pretty risky sexual behaviour.

    As ever I daresay there is a whole spectrum of dynamics at play.

    But I would still say that low self esteem = promiscuity would be an occasional causation rather than a common one.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    jess,

    I didn’t mean to imply that less gregarious people had low self-esteem necessarily. Some people are just more introverted than others.

  • jess

    JM- ah yes- i see that – i agree- i was just throwing together possible dynamics

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Jess – “And I hope i can put an optimistic slant on your situation because some of my university peers who had a ‘full education on carnal matters’ whilst younger are extremely faithful mothers and partners. They are in their 40s now.’

    I genuinely appreciate your sentiment, so thanks.

    I have never once said that any given individual woman with a promiscuous past cannot be something better later in life. I still maintain that the best course for any man is to avoid such women for LTRs when possible. It is an odds game. Every single time we give someone a chance, we are rolling the dice. Depending on a lot of circumstances, your chances of winning will vary, but the house always has the advantage. Just because my SO turned out to be a great women, does not mean that nine others with similar pasts aren’t horrible people incapable of any long term commitment. And it doesn’t mean they are. However, if I was rolling the dice right now, I would be looking at that past promiscuous behavior as the odds being ever so slightly MORE in favor of the house, and against me. If that promiscuous past also comes with other indications of problems, I might figure my chances of winning are so slim that the best bet is to not play the game at all.

    I will always come from the standpoint of minimizing risk and maximizing the chances of success for any man looking for a relationship. If that means passing over some women that would be great partners in order to get better odds, it is mostly unfortunate for those women. Because, in the end, that man will probably find someone. That women may or may not be the best he could have had, but if he is happy with her, he will never give it a thought.

    And, as I’ve stated before, for me it is as much about attitude towards sex as it is about loyalty. I have no doubt at all that many people that have and do enjoy casual sex have the ability to remain faithful and monogamous for the long term. But, I also want a partner that views sex in a similar manner as I do. Otherwise, we will not have a common view of what we share together, and that discrepancy for me would be a constant thorn in my side. Further, what about raising children? I have all intent of teaching my children that casual sex is generally bad and should be avoided. I intend to encourage them to enjoy their sexuality, but to do it within the confines of a committed relationship. I will suggest that they should always seek that commitment first, and then allow the relationship to progress.

    How would that work if my wife totally disagreed with me?

  • SayWhaat

    @ purplesneakers:

    Also, as much as people say women in their early 20′s should look at older men and not guys in their own age range for something besides hooking up, the truth is that significant age differences (in this case, 12 years) means that he usually doesn’t take you as seriously, and sometimes sees you as a number–your age. So for all these reasons I’m seriously re-thinking my “hot older man” fantasy (*sigh*).

    I dated a guy who was 6-7 years older than I am. I definitely felt that he didn’t take me too seriously — he kept acting squeamish about our age difference. Once I started working full-time he came around again, saying that there’s a world of a difference between the person I was as a college student, and the person I am now (this was over a period of a year). I told him that I didn’t change, only his perception of me changed. But he still had this whole “I am full of wisdom because I am older and more experienced” attitude about him.

    He had a white iPhone. Shoulda known he was a pretentious fuck. :P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      He had a white iPhone. Shoulda known he was a pretentious fuck.

      Oh no, I was thinking my next iphone would be white!

  • jess

    Ted

    yes- all good points.

    the thing is -when it comes to having kids its unusual to find parents that agree on rearing anyhow.

    sexual advice may be the least of your arguments with the other half!

    choice of school, religion, curfews, tv privileges, food, holidays, chores, dealing with indiscipline, choosing rewards.

    these are all flash points between mums and dads with regards to their kids

    i dont think my parental advice on sex is 100 miles apart from yours anyway.

    I think moderate, safe, sober sex of a casual nature whilst waiting for an LTR is acceptable for a young person. (or any person!- mustn’t be ageist)

    But good sex within a loving LTR is always the best.

    My kids are gonna get a graphic description of the nastier stds out there because I know they will be under pressure to have sex from about 14 onwards because thats the over-sexualised world we live in.

    Your advice for your kids will be ‘only have sex in a secure LTR’ and thats fine and perfectly legitimate advice too.

    But my worry about your advice is that there may be lengthy gaps between LTRs for your kids, and that means celibacy between LTRs and thats not always easy to keep to. (refer to Sassy’s posts)

    And if one of your children does indulge they may not come to you for advice because they may not want your disapproval. And if there is a really lengthy gap one could argue thats a denial of a very strong and enjoyable human urge at your most young and beautiful.

    But I accept my advice has its pitfalls too! Of course we are both making the assumption our kids are going to listen to anything we say when they are teenagers- we are assuming a lot!

    I have friends who regard me as a bit of a prude so I may not be cool enough for plausibility anyway. We shall see.

  • jess

    Say Whaat,

    “pretentious fuck”= coitus undertaken on silk linen in a four poster bed with Vivaldi on the stereo

  • SayWhaat

    Oh no, I was thinking my next iphone would be white!

    Haha, I was just talking with co-workers today about how a black iPhone looks sleeker than a white iPhone, and we agreed that the only reason people would buy a white iPhone would be to show that they owned the newest iPhone. Hence the “pretentiousness”. :P

  • Ted D

    Jess – all very true. To be honest my SO and I are on the same page with the kids. And in actuality it was the following story that put my worries to rest on this issue, although it took me some time to think it over.

    We have three children in our house: her son and daughter, and my son. The boys are 12 and 13, and they both have girlfriends. (although for the life of me I don’t know what dating in middle school actually means) anyway, we decided it was time for the boys to get “the talk” and my SO expected me to give the speech. Of course, the first thing I said was “you know how I feel about casual sex. Are you sure you want me to talk him for you?” she looked at me for a second and said “of course I’m sure. Just because I did stupid shit when I was a kid, doesn’t mean I want my son to!” I think we are pretty much on the same page indeed.

  • Lanaya

    I really have learned a lot from the interview.. Thanks for sharing!

  • Marie

    @SawWhaat
    I think 6-7 years is a necessary age difference. I’m 21 and would never consider a guy who’s 21, in fact I barely look at guys under 25. Around 27 is ideal for me. I’m skeptical about those 32+ though, not because of the age difference, but because there’s probably a reason why they’re single.

    Men’s brains aren’t fully developed until they’re about 30, mind you. Of course life experience matters, but a 20 year old girl’s intellectual equivalent would be older than she is.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Marie

    Yes, I generally agree. I’m a year younger than everyone in my peer group so even if I were to date one of them, it’s a given that they would be older than I am. My bf is three years older than I am, but he’s fairly mature even for his age (25).

    I just can’t date someone younger than I am; the feeling is equivalent to what other girls feel about dating guys shorter than they are, I guess.

  • WarmWoman

    “Men’s brains aren’t fully developed until they’re about 30, mind you. Of course life experience matters”.

    I agree. I recently went on dates where the men had revealed that they were only 24 and 25. That was a dealbreaker, even if they were nice men. It’s flattering that these men also thought I was about as young as them (I’m in my late 20’s). Considering how I was in my mid-20’s, I’m not comfortable dating men that may be at the same place developmentally.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Men’s brains aren’t fully developed until they’re about 30, mind you.

    That’s because they reach a more advanced state than the brains of women, which usually stall out at around 25. :P

  • Ted D

    I’m 41, and I’m not sure my brain is fully developed…

  • this is Jen

    @Renee

    I’d also like to add that promiscuous people are trying to have their cake and eat it too. When girls sleep around they generally get alot of attention from men. Men really like them, and more chaste women tend to get ignored, but when its time for marriage and kids the tables turn. Promiscuous girls get tossed to the bottom of the barrel. Sure, maybe its not fair, but thats life. Its not fair how attractive women get treated better than homely girls. Its not fair that some men were blessed with height (thus desirable) while others were not. Promiscuous girls get upset because they can’t have their cake now and later. But thats what delayed gratification is all about. Good things have always come to those who wait.

    The guy that was a loser all through his teens and early 20s (for whatever reason) but bloomed later on in life got no sympathy from anyone at the time, so why should I sympathize with a former promiscuous woman? We all get dealt a hand and we choose how we play it. But we all knew the rules and risks involved. So, I feel sorry for no one.
    —————————————————————————-

    Amen!!!!

  • Emily

    >> “When girls sleep around they generally get alot of attention from men. Men really like them, and more chaste women tend to get ignored, but when its time for marriage and kids the tables turn. Promiscuous girls get tossed to the bottom of the barrel. ”

    True dat. Sometimes I think that what “good girls” go through isn’t all that different from what lots of beta males go through. Another reason to ignore guys who are under the age of 25.

  • this is Jen

    March 15, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    Charm
    1. get bored with their current one, especially in a marriage
    2. compare their current lover to the past ones.

    You generally can’t miss what you’ve never had
    ______________
    Ive been confided in several times by both male and female friends who often wondered what they are missing, or missed by saving themselves. It really became an issue with some. They often wondered what it would be like to have sex with someone other than their spouse. I wouldnt be surprised if a couple of them found out.
    ————————————————

    my number was zero before my first husband…. and I wasn’t curious for a long time- 12 years…. then I was. ( But that wasn’t the only thing going on in the marriage.) so finding out wasn’t a one dimensional thing. But it was definitely part of it.

  • Charm

    @This is jen

    I think its normal for people to miss what they never had, but you can’t exactly long for it. I wish I had attentive caring parents like other people have had but I didn’t. I don’t know what that feels like. Ive never been there though I often fantasize about what I must be like. I think the fantasy makes people believe that things are a lot better then they seem. Sure, a man can think that a guy who has banged 20 women must be lucky but that guy could be very unhappy and regretful. Even if he brags about it. I think we always project our fantasies and believe them to be true even though it could be quite the opposite. I always have to remember that my face is pressed against the glass. Im looking from the outside in. I only know what it looks like from that perspective. Actually being inside of it could really suck.

  • Charm

    @Emily

    Youre right. Good girls suffer just as much as the betas do. Im not upset about it though. Everyone gets their chance eventually. A lot of people give the early 20s too much importance over their existence and feel like this missed something if they didn’t participate in the antics of their peers. I never gave a damn. I thought it was stupid. Im about to graduate and I still think its stupid. I dont envy the girls that get attention from guys right now. Why? Id never be interested in those guys in the first place. The part that annoys me is that I dont see anything interesting about those girls. Nothing. Most aren’t even that attractive. I dont understand my peers. From my perspective they’re a bunch of lost assholes.

    Im with you on the older guy thing (you did say that right? lol). Ill probably marry older than myself. I have never been able to relate to people my age especially men. They are too immature and I was stability so I want someone that is more established then I am and wont be put off by me not behaving like most “girls”.

  • Charm

    want*

  • this is Jen

    Charm March 18, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    @This is jen

    I think its normal for people to miss what they never had, but you can’t exactly long for it. I wish I had attentive caring parents like other people have had but I didn’t. I don’t know what that feels like. Ive never been there though I often fantasize about what I must be like. I think the fantasy makes people believe that things are a lot better then they seem. Sure, a man can think that a guy who has banged 20 women must be lucky but that guy could be very unhappy and regretful. Even if he brags about it. I think we always project our fantasies and believe them to be true even though it could be quite the opposite. I always have to remember that my face is pressed against the glass. Im looking from the outside in. I only know what it looks like from that perspective. Actually being inside of it could really suck.
    ——————————————————————–
    As it turns out….the grass truly is greener on the other side( for me)
    Then again, I think maybe I just got extremely lucky. Things could have gone down a much worse path for me.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I think its normal for people to miss what they never had, but you can’t exactly long for it. I wish I had attentive caring parents like other people have had but I didn’t. I don’t know what that feels like. Ive never been there though I often fantasize about what I must be like. I think the fantasy makes people believe that things are a lot better then they seem. Sure, a man can think that a guy who has banged 20 women must be lucky but that guy could be very unhappy and regretful. Even if he brags about it. I think we always project our fantasies and believe them to be true even though it could be quite the opposite. I always have to remember that my face is pressed against the glass. Im looking from the outside in. I only know what it looks like from that perspective. Actually being inside of it could really suck.

    My partner count is one just my husband but I had enough promiscuous friends to just pity them. They were for the most part miserable, easy to manipulate, led by their dicks/vaginas. My friends with similar stories are a lot happier for the most part and they are not curious either, that being said they do like sex and they can be tempted if things at home are not going well, but they do have a stronger reason not to try because is uncharted territory crossing the barrier from having being only with your husband to add another man is a hard step that is never taken lightly not even the one I know that cheated took around a year of lack of sex at home and constant “grooming” from another man before straying in, not that that makes her less of a bitch over it but is a counterexample of “virgins are more likely to cheat out of curiosity” meme on the net. I have no curiosity whatsoever about other men, heck I can’t even order anything but my favorite ice cream flavor unless I force myself into it.

  • Charm

    @This is jen

    I think it come down to whether or not a person is willing to take the risk and if the risk will pay off. Often I think the lines get blurred and it can be ambiguous and a person can “move on” and once there realize it was a mistake. Im the type of person where I’d rather think long and hard about a person before making a decision on them. When deciding on something huge like marriage and life long commitment, I plan on taking my time. I don’t believe that love isn’t a choice. I think their is a fair amount of choice involved. So if I select someone I’ll stick beside them. Even if the grass might be greener.

    @Anacoana

    Yes, I think any kind of risky behavior like that reveals that the person can probably be easily manipulated especially if the thing they like (in this case sex) is dangled in front of them. Like a alcoholic with liquor or a drug addict with heroin. Its the fact that the person seems to never be able to be satisfied with what they have. Thats the sad part. They can never be content, can never be full and can ultimately never be happy.

    Wanting a LTR or marriage that is stable happy and committed is something I think all people want. If the don’t want it I think they want it. Im demisexual but I still want to be able to experience primary sexual attraction like other people. I can’t imagine what it must be like to want to bang different people often while also wanting the stable committed relationship. The cad that I knew always seemed like he got bored with sex with one person but longed to actually like sex with one person. He would recycle his harem and build a new one, but the cycle kept going. I could tell he was tired of it but stopping wasn’t an option. I certainly don’t even that shit. Its like the fat chick that can’t stop eating even though she knows she full and will only get fatter.

  • Charm

    envy* that shit

  • Charm

    @Anacoana

    Also, while promiscuity isnt even much of an option for me due to my sexuality, I dont think Id do it even if I did experience primary sexual attraction. Im not trying to keep my body count down purposely to be considered “better”. Im doing it because I really want to know one person very well sexually. I dont see the point of trying to enjoy sex with 10 other people when I can just enjoy it with one. I also dont want to compare a person that I marry to people in the past. This is not to say that people do that often but I think after a certain number of sexual partners its hard not to. I think that there is really no reason for a person to be promiscuous in the 21st century we have porn now. You arent better at sex just because you’ve done it with more people. The way I see it, you can learn to suck dick by sucking 50 dicks or you can learn to suck 1 dick really well. I choose the latter.

    I want to be able to connect well with a person on every level. Thats the reason sexual behavior is important to me. I cant see myself desiring a deep sexual connection with someone thats slept around. I wouldnt be able to trust them and open myself up completely (pun not intended).I know Id feel dirty just for being with them. It causes a mental block and is repulsive to me. I just couldnt do it. Its that simple to me.

  • OffTheCuff

    Em: “Sometimes I think that what “good girls” go through isn’t all that different from what lots of beta males go through. Another reason to ignore guys who are under the age of 25.”

    What? You realize statements like this, are just plain beta-hate. The more beta’s realize this, the less likely they’ll be interested to marry you at 20, 25, or ever.

  • WarmWoman

    Charm

    I think you have a very good head on your shoulders and think you make valid points. I’m positive that your behavior and views now will pay off in the long run.

    “The cad that I knew always seemed like he got bored with sex with one person but longed to actually like sex with one person. ”

    Even if he did find one person, the chance is he may become unsatisfied with that too. I’ve seen it happen. You get used to sex with so many different people and unattaching/moving on where you won’t be able to even feel content with the “right one.”

  • Charm

    @WW

    Oh yea. This guy was in the 100s when it came to partner count. He was only 24. That surpasses the point of “cool”. He seemed confident he’d find a girl that he could settle with, but I wondered if he’d ever considered that he might not.

    @OTC

    I see how offense could be taken by that comment. But don’t we all know that men don’t really gain a ton of value until they are older? The problem with some betas in their 20s is that they aren’t as mature as Id like, are very supplicating when it comes to girls, and seem to want what the alphas have. Not to say all are like this but there is usually a combination of these things among others. When I got to college I was shocked at how much more mature I was compared to my peers. Men and women literally dont mature until 25+ range. Plus men and women in my age range a very clueless about pretty much everything. Thats how I took it anyway.

  • Esau

    Charm: When I got to college I was shocked at how much more mature I was compared to my peers.

    I’m sure you also found yourself to be kinder, more intelligent, and better read, to have better morals, a better sense if humor and a superior sense of fashion, as well. But, what really stands out here is your modesty, thank goodness.

  • Emily

    >> “What? You realize statements like this, are just plain beta-hate. The more beta’s realize this, the less likely they’ll be interested to marry you at 20, 25, or ever.”

    I’m not hating anybody. I’m just speaking from my own experience.

    I’m fairly old-fashioned, and my ultimate goal has always been an LTR that eventually leads to marriage-and-babies. A lot of younger guys (yes even betas) run for the hills at that sort of thing. As I’ve been getting older though, suddenly more and more guys are wanting the same things that I do.

  • Charm

    @Esau

    I can’t for the life of me figure out how that statement warrants sarcasm. However, it is true. As much as I want it not be it is. At 18 viewed myself as an adult. I got to college, found a job to pay my bills, opened my own credit cards and took responsibility for the balances, I found my own apartments and paid my own rent. I made sure I did well in all my classes, and knew that drinking 4 nights a week was a bad strategy if I wanted to do something with my life. Do you know what most people were doing at 18? None of that. Im still surprised at how many peoples still cant make decisions without the input or help from their parents.

    My generation is a bunch of coddled assholes. Still sucking from the teet. If that somehow makes me arrogant then fuck it. I dont care what you think of me.

  • OffTheCuff

    But don’t we all know that men don’t really gain a ton of value until they are older?

    Sexual value, yes. That’s why you’re supposed to get marry young. If you invest your peak SMV years, and in exchange, he doesn’t leave you during his. You want your man to be a “fully formed” man before you even will be his girlfriend. The smart women can see where he’s going in life.

    The problem with some betas in their 20s is that they aren’t as mature as Id like, are very supplicating when it comes to girls, and seem to want what the alphas have.

    Yeah, lesser betas. The greater betas figured out the game early, got married and are off the market in their *early* 20s. What’s left are mostly alphas and lesser betas, as you note. If one, by chance, isn’t snagged early, his will SMV increase, he will finally realize what’s what, and start treating you like an alpha would.

    I’m fairly old-fashioned, and my ultimate goal has always been an LTR that eventually leads to marriage-and-babies.

    If you were old fashioned, this would be your goal right now, not “eventually”. I didn’t play the field and neither did my wife.

  • Emily

    By “eventually” I mean after taking a while to get to know each other/make sure that we’re right for each other. I have no intention of playing the field or anything. I consider it a waste of time to date anybody who couldn’t potentially be a future marriage partner.

  • Lokland

    @ Charm

    “At 18 viewed myself as an adult. I got to college, found a job to pay my bills, opened my own credit cards and took responsibility for the balances, I found my own apartments and paid my own rent. I made sure I did well in all my classes, and knew that drinking 4 nights a week was a bad strategy if I wanted to do something with my life. Do you know what most people were doing at 18? None of that. Im still surprised at how many peoples still cant make decisions without the input or help from their parents. ”

    Not to be a douce but every 18 year old thinks they got their shit together.
    As for the “uniqueness” of your college experience. Roughly 25% of Cdn (not sure about states) uni students pay their own way through school. Your not that unique.
    Drinking 4 nights a week, maybe 5% of all students.

    Arrogant and misinformed.

  • Emily

    >> “Yeah, lesser betas. The greater betas figured out the game early, got married and are off the market in their *early* 20s. ”

    I think this depends a lot on where you’re living. Where I am, it’s very rare for people to get married in their early 20s. And I only know one university-educated guy who did this.

    I’d love to have gotten married in my early 20s, but most people won’t even consider it until they’re at least in their mid 20s.

  • WarmWoman

    “None of that. Im still surprised at how many peoples still cant make decisions without the input or help from their parents.”

    Some people (like myself) were raised that we couldn’t make decisions on our own or that we shouldn’t trust ourselves without the input from godly parents. I didn’t even realize that I had the right to do what I want without my parents’ approval until I was 25. Seriously.

    I do hope to raise my children to be independent and gain the skills to think for themselves. I will help them when they need it, but I wouldn’t want to infantilize them either.

  • Charm

    @WW

    Ah yes. I should have included that in my comment as well. A lot of parents don’t trust their kids. I got this way because I have not other choice. From what I’ve observed a lot of parents arent very confident that they’ve raised their offspring well enough to take care of themselves thus their children dont grow up. But I will say that I think at some point it is a choice. After a while its not cute to blame it on your upbringing.

  • WarmWoman

    That’s the whole point about being a parent though. You raise your offspring to function on their own in the adult world.

    Yes, everybody has the choice to start being an adult. The only thing I don’t like is when a parent tries to stop the adult child from being in charge of their own destiny. At some point, you’re going to have to let your kids go and focus on your life instead.

  • Charm

    @Lokland

    Sorry. I dont “think” I have my shit together. I had to have my shit together. Does this mean that I didn’t stumble a bit? No, I did but I got back up. My parents/family haven’t helped me at all. My parents barely raised me. So at 15 I realized that if I wanted to do something with my life I’d have to go to college. I navigated the entire process of admissions alone. When I couldnt cover my fees my first quarter in college, I figure it out on my own. For the last 7 years of my life I’ve pretty much taken care of myself. No snowflaking here. My parents help me with nothing. Read that, nothing. No money, no emotional support, nothing.

    I realize that Im a product of a fucked up situation. So I had no other choice, but when Im surrounded by people who can’t be bothered to keep a job working 10 hours a week because they don’t “like” it or who can’t call and set up their own cable or electricity to their new apartment because its easier to ask their parents, or who can’t choose a location to live in because they can’t tell a bad neighborhood from a good one even though theyve lived in that place for a year, it makes me wonder.

    It seems that college is full of a bunch of highschoolers who are old enough to drink. I go to a large school 40k+ and the level of irresponsibility is astounding. I don’t get it. A few months ago there as a string of robberies happening almost daily but it didn’t stop the drunk 105 pound girls from stumbling home alone at 2 am.

    So, I consider myself an adult. I don’t claim to know it all, but Im doing pretty well for myself with no help from anyone else.

  • WarmWoman

    From what you say Charm-I would say you’re doing pretty well for yourself in terms of sufficiency.

  • Charm

    @WW

    Yea, I’ve always wondered why people, after 18 years of child rearing, wanted to still have some control. I’d be celebrating.

    If I’d followed my parents lead I’d have at least 2 children by now, be a recipient of welfare and be living in the projects. Oh and also involved in either selling or doing drugs. Hell, maybe a combination of the two.

  • WarmWoman

    @ Charm

    IMHO, because those parents have their own insecurities and haven’t grown up themselves. Without having control over someone, they have no power or sense of importance. Some parents feel that their adult child is an extension of themselves, and not a separate human being.

  • Charm

    @WW

    From my experience, thats a lot of parents.

  • WarmWoman

    Ha, I always felt like I was the only one like that and assumed that everybody else had parents that said “Do what you want at 18.”

  • Charm

    @WW

    I knew people didn’t, but I thought they’d at least treat them like responsible adults.

    Though, I’d be the type to say “Good luck” at 18 with a smirk on my face.

    I think parents would be surprised at how well their kids can flap their wings when they realize its either that or they hit the ground dead.

  • WarmWoman

    “I think parents would be surprised at how well their kids can flap their wings when they realize its either that or they hit the ground dead.”

    I’ve found that living on my own in a town where I knew no one was much easier than being dependent on my parents.

    There are a lot of single women that do just fine living on their own. There’s a way to make it work.

  • Charm

    @WW

    Yes. Independence is so much easier. It really simplifies your life. A lot less input from other people involved. If people only knew what they were missing. I enjoy me independence. I can do whatever I want. I answer to no one. I feel like some damn kid on the lamb lol.

  • OffTheCuff

    Em:”I think this depends a lot on where you’re living. Where I am, it’s very rare for people to get married in their early 20s. And I only know one university-educated guy who did this.”

    I grew up in New York, then moved to Boston. Most of my coworker friends married well before 30.

    My sister waited until 30, because she dicked around for 10 years, living at home, being bisexual, and doing the whole “20’s” thing that I never did. Once she decided to get off her butt and actually grow up, she met a decent man very quickly.

  • Emily

    The marriage age has also been getting pushed later and later over the years, which I think makes a huge difference.

    My parents got married at 23, which wasn’t all that unusual in their time. But I’m 24 and, like I said, there are very few people my age who are married. My boyfriend (who is– in my completely biased opinion– a textbook example of a Greater Beta) is 29.

    I’ve noticed that a small but increasing number of my friends are getting engaged, but this is only just starting to happen. And since people make such a big deal out of weddings these days, it will be at least another year until they’re actually married.

  • WarmWoman

    “My sister waited until 30, because she dicked around for 10 years, living at home, being bisexual, and doing the whole “20′s” thing that I never did. Once she decided to get off her butt and actually grow up, she met a decent man very quickly.”

    Does her decent man know what she did in her 20’s?

  • FeralEmployee

    @Marie

    “Men’s brains aren’t fully developed until they’re about 30, mind you. Of course life experience matters, but a 20 year old girl’s intellectual equivalent would be older than she is.”

    I assume you read this somewhere, and instantly made all kinds of assumptions, including:

    – emotional development (the limbic system matures at an early age)
    – IQ (also matures at early ages, and relative scores between individuals of same age remain fairly constant)

    Wisdom will be the major factor to discuss here. But honestly, there are women saying the “boys” their age are not yet fully developed, while the men are saying that women their age are acting like they know it all (aka underdeveloped).

    I can take it if research points out that boys are emotionally underdeveloped at 25 compared to women. But please, cite it for me, and don’t rip conclusions out of context, like you do. You are not helping your own sex in projecting “maturity”. Instead you hold a confirmation bias not only by twisting the conclusion, but most likely in applying what you’ve made of it in real life (calling the men underdeveloped). One thing the MRM and Christina Hoff Sommers can agree upon, is the guided downgrading of male fulfillment in our Western society. Don’t expect a person to abstain from beastly behavior, when you treat him like one throughout his youth.

    Furthermore, the brain indeed matures. But they can reach thresholds far below their full potential. This decrease is influenced by lifestyle, e.g. drinking, drugs, sports, … There’s a reason many of us engineers look down upon the party animals, and it’s not just because they’re experiencing the “lavish lifestyle” they promote. We get to clean up their mess when we’re older. We’ve done our best to uphold STEM guys as “not like the rest” so far.

  • OffTheCuff

    Does her decent man know what she did in her 20′s?

    Yeah, but I don’t think it’s that bad. Worked full time, had some boyfriends, one girlfriend (that really pissed off my parents), and I imagine some failed hookups. She wasn’t a crazy party girl, unless she had some expertly-crafted secret hidden life, since she lived at my parents’ house.

    My point was more that I spent my 20’s working & married. Sis’ husband was getting his PhD – while she saved nothing and spent her entire paycheck on fun.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Charm – “Yes. Independence is so much easier. It really simplifies your life. A lot less input from other people involved. If people only knew what they were missing. I enjoy me independence. I can do whatever I want. I answer to no one. I feel like some damn kid on the lamb lol”

    As someone that has been in a LTR pretty much since 11th grade, the only time I truly felt the “pinch” of being attached was in the last years of my marriage. I’ve never felt too restricted in terms of my independence. And, as far as it goes, I generally enjoy being responsible to someone else. I think left to my own devices, there is (or at least was in my 20’s) a good chance of things going down hill fast. Probably not now that I have children (the mother of all independence killers!), but as a young single guy, I can easily see things getting out of hand if I had no one to answer to. Truly, I think my previous relationships probably contributed a great deal to my making it to 30. :P

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    As someone that has been in a LTR pretty much since 11th grade, the only time I truly felt the “pinch” of being attached was in the last years of my marriage.

    I will consider this a green flag. :)
    I hated dating and I feel more free to be myself now that I’m married that when I was “looking”. I can talk to men more freely because is just innocent talk I’m not trying to find things in common or any connection finding out if I’m talking with “the father of my children” I also can dress to my liking and my hubby’s liking not wondering how can a maximize my attractiveness without looking slutty or crazy…is a whole new world I wish I could had get married younger just to avoid all the craziness of the the dating world, YMMV.

  • Ted D

    “hated dating and I feel more free to be myself now that I’m married that when I was “looking”.”

    Me too. I’m not sure exactly what that says about me though…

  • Emily

    >> “I can talk to men more freely because is just innocent talk I’m not trying to find things in common or any connection finding out if I’m talking with “the father of my children” ”

    I think this is why girls often find that they generate more interest when they’re off the market. It’s a lot easier to just enjoy yourself and interact with guys like an actual human being once that pressure is off.

    I also hate dating. Although the initial phase is more “exciting”, I hate the instability. I much prefer the comfortable “relationship” stage.

  • DalTex

    Promiscuous is a term applied to females most of the time. Yet, the males are just getting it out of their system. Your logic only works if you have a continuum of sluts and prudes. If all women act one way or the other – you couldn’t possibly be happy. Therefore all females are constantly being criticized for either not giving it up now to the entitled male or having disgracefully given it up in the past. As it takes longer for any man to become self sufficient, much less able to provide for a household; chaste women would have to wait longer and longer to marry a decent man anyway – so they get to deny themselves any attempt at a sexually fulfilling relationship while waiting for boys to finish screwing anything that stands still long enough and become men. If most college girls knew they had a reasonable chance of marriage and starting a family just after college graduation as it was in the 50s, they would have some incentive to wait. But realistically most know it may be closer to 30, if at all,and really why should they have to miss out in a decade of sex just because men are taking significantly longer to mature.