Which Comes First – Promiscuous or Crazy?

March 13, 2012

New Gawker personality Anonymous Therapist is male, a father, and a therapist of many years who primarily treats teens and couples. He responds to questions about his practice, sharing the insights he’s gleaned and also some pretty outrageous stories. I was especially intrigued by his views on sexual promiscuity. (H/T: Stuart Schneiderman)

Gawker: Do you find that females who “experiment” are prone to self-destruction?

Anonymous Therapist: A resounding yes. Forget about the spoon-fed knowledge that promiscuity and experimentation lead to a higher risk of sexual assault, STDs, and unplanned children. Women that experiment—both heterosexually and homosexually—have, in my experience, faced higher levels of guilt and a lack of identity as their lives begin to settle down. Understand that this is a chicken-or-egg scenario, because sexual promiscuity in women in is one of the three major symptoms of internal anger and self-hatred, along with substance abuse and self-mutilation.

SW: Anonymous Therapist doesn’t specify a particular number of partners, but zeroes in on the motives for having casual sex as indicative of poor mental health. Here correlation, with or without causation, suggests that slutty behavior is a package deal, born of a desire to harm or punish oneself.

Gawker: That seems harsh. How so?

AT: I had a female patient once. She was very attractive, had three kids and was married to a prominent figure around town. She admitted to me that as a teen, she was extremely sexually active due to some feelings of unattractiveness and abandonment. Once she had kids, she felt guilty that her kids would one day—and I’m quoting here—”realize that they were birthed from a ‘whore,'” and that there was no special physical connection between her and her husband because he was like, the 70th man she’d been with. She felt unworthy of her social prominence because no one knew who she truly was. Since she could not separate from her past and never truly dealt with the core issues of her inadequacies, she began to self-destruct with substances, a spending addiction, and oftentimes engaging in communications that would jeopardize her husband’s career.

  • Self-destruction stems from guilt or a sense of unworthiness, and if you are not punished by someone else then, in your mind, you must punish yourself. 
  • Experimentation is also socially driven: It is now commendable in our society to be promiscuous. 
  • For both men and women, any type of promiscuity or experimentation, what you feel at the time is not always how you will feel about it later. 

In my opinion, any type of promiscuity or “phase” is fulfilling some type of need or emptiness inside that person at that specific time. Later on, that need may be fulfilled, but the behavior has occurred and the person may not be able to intellectualize the rationale or forgive themselves for fulfilling that need in that venue.

SW: Interestingly, AT begins by speaking about female promiscuity, but ends by generalizing that promiscuous behavior for both sexes comes from a place of inadequacy rather than emotional health.

What AT doesn’t address is the role of peer pressure, culture, and pluralistic ignorance on college campuses. Recently the Harvard Crimson interviewed Lisa Wade, Ph.D., a Sociology professor at Occidental College who studies the role of sex, sexuality, and gender in society. Wade dishes out a lot of feminist blather about “teh patriarchy” but at least she’s honest about what’s going on in hookup culture:

Crimson: What role do you think that television and the media’s very casual attitude toward sex has played in shaping society’s views on sex?

LW: It certainly contributes to the pluralistic ignorance and the idea that college is going to be constant sex with attractive people and that that’s how you have fun in college. We get the idea that someone who is cool and interesting and exciting is someone who is doing it and doing it with whoever, whenever, however…. The media seems to be saying that students who don’t participate are just irrelevant and off the social map altogether, and that’s a pretty harsh punishment to someone who objects to what’s going on or wishes it were different.

…What the sexual revolution of the 1960s and 1970s gave us is the opportunity to say “yes” to sex. But what it didn’t give us was the opportunity to say “no.” So students feel comfortable saying “yes” to sex, but they also feel like it’s increasingly difficult to say “no.” They feel like they should lose their virginity and have casual sex, and they feel bad about wanting to say “no.”

…When students arrive on campus their first year, they are very excited about what they think is going to be lots and lots of sex and lots and lots of fun. They often start getting disappointed right away and find themselves getting disappointed with so little pleasure and feelings of empowerment. But they don’t feel like they can change the way it is. The majority of students hook up now and then, but they have mixed feelings about what’s going on—they’re excited about the opportunity to be sexual but they’re also frustrated. Over the four years of college, students spend less and less time hooking up.

Clearly, there’s more going on here than self-hatred, though it seems reasonable to assume that the disappointment and frustration students feel after hooking up might create or exacerbate those feelings.  One young woman told me that when she got very depressed about the hookup scene and her role in it at her small, private college she went to see a school counselor, who reported that most of the requests for counseling related directly to the hookup scene and kids’ struggles to find their place within it or outside it.

There was one other remark from Anonymous Therapist that I know will interest you:

Gawker: So do you think couples should reveal how many people they’ve had sex with in order to alleviate guilt?

Absolutely not! Once you know that number, you begin to dwell on it and then the mind begins to go places it shouldn’t go and then start to rationalize and over-think the numbers—i.e., how many were one-night stands? How often were feelings shared? Does that make it better or worse? And so on. It’s just a useless piece of information that tends to eventually, more often than not, impact the relationship either on a conscious or subconscious level. So keep it to yourself.

SW: It’s an interesting observation. If one’s number of past sexual partners predicts future behavior, and there’s some reason to think that it does, then it’s important information. Yet it does not come without a price, as it may require forgiveness or compromise very early in a relationship. It may also prevent the heartache of being cheated on or dumped later. There’s no way to know up front. As long as sexual behavior remains unrestrained by societal norms, the “number” is going to be an important point of discussion.
 
P.S. Speaking of fidelity, Vox Day is gathering some stats in a Fidelity Survey at Alpha Game.  He’s already got over 150 responses, but a really large sample will provide better data. He’s interested in both male and female takers, so check it out HERE
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  • Jesus Mahoney

    Great post. I haven’t seen Jess, Tom, and Abbot in one thread for a while. This should be fun.

  • Ramble

    Once you know that number, you begin to dwell on it and then the mind begins to go places it shouldn’t go and then start to rationalize and over-think the numbers—i.e., how many were one-night stands?

    It sounds as if, in his head, he was already responding to: Should you share your number if it is high?

    I doubt there are many guys who would dwell on it if her number was something like, 2.

    Also, I would love to know his thoughts on girls, or guys, who “had there fun” in college (or whatever) and then settled down afterwards.

  • Ted D

    I agree that the number can cause all kinds of mental issues, but I insist on getting it out in the open pretty early on. And that is a requirement from my blue pill days. I’ve added several others to my list since taking the red pill, but the number is still one of them.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “Don’t tell…” and hope to hell the guy doesn’t find out.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    ““Don’t tell…” and hope to hell the guy doesn’t find out”

    The rub there is, if she was very promiscuous, it probably WILL come out. The only way to avoid that is to move away from where you hit the casual market and start fresh somewhere. If man really wants to know, he will make judgments based on whatever info he can find. Most of which will come from her friends and family, without them even realizing it. And as much as actually knowing her number may suck, the unknown would be worse for me. Lots of “tells” pointing to a promiscuous past without a definitive tally would drive me nuts.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Once you know that number, you begin to dwell on it and then the mind begins to go places it shouldn’t go and then start to rationalize and over-think the numbers—i.e., how many were one-night stands? How often were feelings shared? Does that make it better or worse? And so on.

    Thing is, *these* are the questions the guy really wants answered when he wants to know the number. It’s not a matter of who’s got one over on whom.

    Idk. In a way, I feel like you should judge the person for whom they are now. I mean, unless you’re buying a home in the neighborhood where the woman slept around. Yet, it’s obviously a significant part of a person’s history. And if the person doesn’t think it is, then… that might be worse.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Lots of “tells” pointing to a promiscuous past without a definitive tally would drive me nuts.

    At that point, you just walk away. No point driving yourself nuts.

  • Passer_By

    “In my opinion, any type of promiscuity or “phase” is fulfilling some type of need or emptiness inside that person at that specific time. ”

    The same could be said for eating dinner, no?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The same could be said for eating dinner, no?

    Sure. Do you want to marry a woman who pops a different man into her oven every evening?

  • Passer_By

    @Mahoney Smarty Pants

    No, but my point is that his statement doesn’t really say anything. We do lots of things to “fulfill some type of need”, including a need to fuck, the need to sleep or the need to get a breath of fresh air. It’s a meaningless statement.

    Or, maybe you were just making a funny, in which case, shame on me for taking it seriously.

  • Wudang

    I`ll agree that there often can be a link between self destructiveness and promosicuity, especially in women, but I have known too many women who have had fairly high numbers who show zero signs of mental health issues in any other areas of their lives to by it being the general rule.

    I also agree with him that such issues can be fixed in many cases and that that can eliminate the future likelyhood of similar behavior. What still would remain though would be past alpha experiences and all that sort of stuff.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yea, I was just kidding. Though I do think there’s a difference. I think he means fulfill some type of need other than a simple desire for sex. I mean aside from Sassy, I’ve never once heard of a woman claiming she just needed to get laid–

    Wait, not true. Once, but not the type to bring home to mom.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    What still would remain though would be past alpha experiences and all that sort of stuff.

    That kind of thing would be the least of my worries.

  • jamie

    @JM “I mean aside from Sassy, I’ve never once heard of a woman claiming she just needed to get laid–”

    I’ve never felt the need to chime in, but I completely identify with Sassy’s predicament. I need to get laid right not just because my jeans are too tight. I don’t like to say anything because people can be so judgmental and besides, it’s not really anybody’s business. I can take care of it myself. I took care of it twice last night. This is my life. You can go ahead and feel sorry for me now.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    jamie,

    But that’s what I mean. Everybody gets horny, but we can take take of it. Most people can “take care of it” on their own. And sorry, I spent years masturbating before I ever even saw a real woman naked, so you’ve got like *zero* sympathy from me.

    😛

  • Jesus Mahoney

    *take take of it. lol. That’s me being greedy.

  • jamie

    @JM

    It’s not the same as the real thing. I’m sure Sassy takes care of hers, but try asking which she’d rather have. I’m sure “being in love” is not an essential prerequisite for her either.

  • Dogsquat

    I think this:

    “For both men and women, any type of promiscuity or experimentation, what you feel at the time is not always how you will feel about it later. ”

    is the most important statement in the article, but it’s easily overlooked.

    To make this prediction accurately you must understand why you feel the way you do now. People rarely bother to do any sort of meaningful self-examination. Worse, self-examination is easily confused with self-justification or infected by fantasy.

    Getting objective – being ruthlessly clinical – about oneself, is the only way I’ve found to stop repeating mistakes. It’s useful in all areas of life, not just relationships.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat

      To make this prediction accurately you must understand why you feel the way you do now. People rarely bother to do any sort of meaningful self-examination. Worse, self-examination is easily confused with self-justification or infected by fantasy.

      It’s also severely hampered by alcohol consumption. People drink with the specific goal of rendering themselves incapable of self-examination or discipline in the moment of temptation. Obviously, they go headlong into the mistake with full knowledge that it’s unlikely to turn out well long-term, suppressing their reluctance to get naked with a stranger.

  • Escoffier

    “I mean aside from Sassy, I’ve never once heard of a woman claiming she just needed to get laid–”

    I hear it occasionally in movies and on TV but in real life? Drawing a blank.

  • Dogsquat

    Hi, Jamie!

    I’m with you on the need vs. want thing, Jesus. I’ve gone a whole year without even seeing a woman who spoke the same languages I do. Wasn’t fun, but I didn’t die from it.

    Had to shave my palms twice a day, though.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    jamie,

    Of course it’s not the same. But I don’t think Sassy’s gone the whole casual route.

    Dogsqaut

    +1. Fact of life for most men. Though most don’t do it in a desert in the Middle East with a rifle in their hand.

  • Dogsquat

    Escoffier, I was reading one of the other threads recently wherein you discussed weightlifting.

    If you haven’t done so, you may wish to consider learning a practical martial art.

    I teach a little Krav Maga here and there. My classes are usually a little over an hour long. The first part is strength and conditioning geared towards surviving violent conflict. Middle part we work on specific skills. Last part we develop reflexes. Mindset is discussed throughout.

    A good Krav class is a kick ass workout. If you’re not getting what you want from the weights, give it a shot.

  • jamie

    @JM

    There is a lot of wiggle room between being in love with your partner and having a casual sexual encounter.

    For instance, a girl might date a guy for a few weeks, realize that there isn’t any long term potential but have sex with him anyway because he’s good looking and nice and usually orders pizza. It’s not ideal, but it’s better than nothing.

    (I know you probably won’t believe me but plenty of girls operate from that beta-boy-scarcity mentality. Until very recently, I had no idea that I could have sex with nearly any guy I wanted if I just asked. I thought I had to work for it. Seriously. You learn new things every day.)

  • jamie

    Hi Dogsquat. We missed you.

  • Dogsquat

    That is true, Jesus.

    Little known fact:

    Infantrymen are adventurous and expert masturbaters.

    Think of that the next time a recruiting commercial comes on. Changes the tone of things, kinda.

  • Escoffier

    I am doing krav, actually.

    And, isn’t this just hilarious, I learned yesterday that I have torn my left ACL. Haha, joke’s on me. Skinny-fat, wealking, inert, pot-bellied wino: no injuries. Weights, swimming, krav, planks, “self-improvement” galore: fucked-up left knee.

    I’m not bitter I swear.

    Started PT today and may–may–have to have surgery.

    Goddamnit.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    jamie,

    To each her own. I find most women around my age can afford a pizza on their own.

  • jamie

    @JM

    I’m not really there for the pizza.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jamie,

    Obviously.

  • purplesneakers

    Personal anecdote of my more promiscuous female friends- some of them had incredibly messed up childhoods. Nearly all of them grew up without dads. I’m sure there are stable girls who get burned by supreme alpha males and then become more risk-seeking as a result (especially the way our culture promotes this pattern and feminists keep on insisting that there’s nothing wrong with hook-up culture), but in my experience, more promiscuous women are already somewhat emotionally unstable to begin with. I’ve had conversations with friends who are trying to understand why they act the way they do or why they’re attracted to the guys they like, and they basically describe classic male-validation-seeking behavior.

    “I mean aside from Sassy, I’ve never once heard of a woman claiming she just needed to get laid–”

    I hear it occasionally in movies and on TV but in real life? Drawing a blank.

    My female friends and I joke around about it, especially when wanting to lose our v-cards. However, I doubt that it’s the same kind of physical need that it is for the average guy. I do have some female friends who have talked about “just wanting to get fucked” after a week of classes/work. The only time I think I’ve felt like this was once last year when I was physically aroused almost non-stop for a week and couldn’t think about anything but sex. I think about sex a lot, but it’s never been as physical as that time.

  • jess

    Mr Mahoney,
    Oh dont worry I still pop in from time to time- I’m just quite busy at the moment- but i have posted a couple of comments this week.

    This new thread is similar to many previous ones and my comments are there as a rebuttal.

    My arguments and stances are as before – I suppose I would echo Wudangs post 11 to some degree.

    Very promiscuous behaviour is likely linked to mental issues but there is research suggesting higher count people have higher self esteem than lower count people.

    Anyhoooo, some of the opening quotes from the article are hilariously awful and are not really worth bothering with.

    they dont apply to most young people in our modern culture and it doesnt need me to point the ‘bleedin’ obvious to any lurkers out there.

    so pray continue gentlemen…

  • Dogsquat

    Jamie said:

    “For instance, a girl might date a guy for a few weeks, realize that there isn’t any long term potential but have sex with him anyway because he’s good looking and nice and usually orders pizza. It’s not ideal, but it’s better than nothing.”
    ______________

    Depends.

    What kind of pizza?

  • jamie

    @Dogsquat

    Very good pizza from a local restaurant. Sometimes there is a 2 hour wait for deliveries on weekends.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I’m with you on the need vs. want thing, Jesus. I’ve gone a whole year without even seeing a woman who spoke the same languages I do. Wasn’t fun, but I didn’t die from it.

    Totally once upon a time I used to masturbate seven to eight times a day. Lucky for me my horniness comes in waves so it was usually six months of sexual obsession in which I had to get off and use porn to alleviate followed by bliss of lack of interest on it, wash and repeat. Now that I’m getting laid regularly is not as bad but I do remember being driven a bit on the crazy side when my husband used to left me for a while and my best friends turns into a real bitch if her hubby is traveling over a week in fact it was a joke at the office of not sending him away from more than a week or the wife will break hell at the office. So yeah sorry no one dies for lack of sex.

    Personal anecdote of my more promiscuous female friends- some of them had incredibly messed up childhoods.

    The slut explosion in my country started like that when there was one or two sluts that moved to start over and quit their slut days or just remained as secondary mistresses but that try to raise their kids to be better, things were under control but then sluts became whatever we have birth control pills and feminists say that men are women should have all the sex with want is their human right! and they breed new sluts that take their place like rabbits and things went to hell really fast.

  • Charm

    You have no idea how happy I am that he mentioned both men AND women. I dont care, when, where or why someone had a “promiscuous phase” I’d still rather not date them when they get over it. Like someone mentioned above people usually dont take the time to reflect on why they engage in certain behaviors. It shows that you dont consider how you actions will impact your future. Plus I think chalking it up to a phase is somehow trying to displace responsibility. People need to learn to own their shit.

    Now this is not to say that people cant change but the reality of the situation is that there is always someone else that can replace you. I think this is why people withhold the number because they know that most people dont engage in the behavior so most men an women can just fin someone else.

    For me though its simply a preference. Just like body type, personality type, whether or not the person smokes, drinks or does drug etc. If people are entitled to have preferences in all those categories why is sexual history off the table? I personally think its just a shaming tactic designed for those who sleep around. Just like fat women will continue to hide behind the obesity epidemic in the US as a rationalization for their laziness.

    I mean I have mutiple tattoos that a fair portion of men might not like. I dont plan on concealing them, or chalking them up to a “phase”. If a man does not like ink on a woman you wont see me kicking up dust over. I knew the ramifications o tattoos when I did it.

  • Sassy6519

    Yea, I was just kidding. Though I do think there’s a difference. I think he means fulfill some type of need other than a simple desire for sex. I mean aside from Sassy, I’ve never once heard of a woman claiming she just needed to get laid–

    I think it just depends on any specific woman’s libido. Mine is off the charts. I have talked about willingly keeping myself indoors before to not tempt myself with random male strangers. It’s not fun at all. I feel like I’ve chained the beast within me to a wall. Eventually, it’s going to break free and wreak havoc on my poor town. That’s why I prefer to be in relationships. I get the steady supply of sex that I need to not want to claw my own face off.

    It’s not the same as the real thing. I’m sure Sassy takes care of hers, but try asking which she’d rather have. I’m sure “being in love” is not an essential prerequisite for her either.

    It’s definitely not the same. Half of the enjoyment of sexual intimacy, for me, is kissing. I love making out for hours on end. No amount of taking care of myself will ever supplement that.

    Of course it’s not the same. But I don’t think Sassy’s gone the whole casual route.

    It depends on how you define the casual route. I don’t randomly sleep with guys, but I do participate in random make out sessions with guys I meet. It satiates my hunger enough so that I don’t do things that are much more drastic or regrettable.

  • WarmWoman

    When I first joined HUS, some of the men on here were telling me “You have to tell him about your past” as if it was some kind of law. 😉 Here’s how I see it. If he doesn’t ask, he obviously doesn’t want to know and finds it irrelevant. If he asks, I will word it “I did some things sexually that I wasn’t proud of, because of childhood conditioning.” If he keeps pressing for more information, then I would have to go into more detail. This situation hasn’t happened in my life yet.

    ““I mean aside from Sassy, I’ve never once heard of a woman claiming she just needed to get laid–””

    You met another one. Ever since my self-esteem and view on intimacy has improved, I just can’t fathom going back to meaningless sex to alleviate urges.

    I definitely think “craziness” comes before promiscuity. You don’t just wake up one day and decide to sleep around. Something happened there to trigger it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Warm Woman

      There’s another option re the question about one’s number. You can simply decline to share that information. I’ve known women to say it’s not the other person’s business, and they’ve been willing to live with the consequences of that. And IIRC they didn’t have particularly high numbers (single digits).

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I don’t randomly sleep with guys, but I do participate in random make out sessions with guys I meet. It satiates my hunger enough so that I don’t do things that are much more drastic or regrettable.

    Like I said, to each her own. Everyone’s got their lines.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    You met another one. Ever since my self-esteem and view on intimacy has improved, I just can’t fathom going back to meaningless sex to alleviate urges.

    +1… Though I suppose it’s easy to say when you’re in a relationship.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy

    “I don’t randomly sleep with guys, but I do participate in random make out sessions with guys I meet. It satiates my hunger enough . . .”

    Really? I would think this would leave you with the female equivalent of blue balls. Blue Clit?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Really? I would think this would leave you with the female equivalent of blue balls. Blue Clit?

      That’s what I thought. Making out would have me so primed I would be extremely tempted to keep going. I’ve always viewed making out as something that happens on the way to sex. Random makeout sessions with strangers just wouldn’t appeal to me. It’s like using a stranger’s toothbrush.

  • WarmWoman

    I’m glad this post came out anyway, because I have been contemplating whether a very promiscuous friend/co-worker is a healthy friend or not. She has been helpful, but she has also snapped at me, made rude and blunt comments out of nowhere, and most likely does have poor self-esteem. Given where I am right now, that’s not the company I want to get close to.

    I agree with Charm that promiscuous men tend to have issues too.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Passer_By

    Really? I would think this would leave you with the female equivalent of blue balls. Blue Clit?

    It’s weird, but I usually do feel satisfied after only kissing someone. It’s fairly easy for me to put a stop to things before they get too out of hand, so I do. Something is better than nothing, in my opinion. I’d rather not rack up a huge body count, so I do my best to keep myself under control. We’ll see how well that continues to go.

  • Ramble

    WarmWoman

    If he doesn’t ask, he obviously doesn’t want to know and finds it irrelevant.

    Or, every part of pop culture and polite society says that a man shouldn’t care, so he doesn’t ask.

  • Charm

    @ramble

    Yes, he’s insecure and less of a man If he cares. Many men dont want to rock the boat. Id love to see a anonymous survey of how men in the 21st century actually feel about it. People can call it what they want, but I still aimt havin’ it. But I have very strong opinions about everything which makes me judgemental so….

  • WarmWoman

    @Ramble

    Maybe! I wonder if men really do wonder if their girl has “been around” by her performance in bed.

    @Sassy-I can also feel satisfied by passionate kissing.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy

    “It’s weird, but I usually do feel satisfied after only kissing someone.”

    Interesting. That alone satisfies you? Or your satisfied by that combined with running straight home and fiddling the bean?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Passer_By

    Hahaha!! The phrase “fiddling the bean” cracks me up.

    Anyway, I typically don’t run home to take care of business afterwards. For some reason, kissing is enough. The point of no return, for me, seems to be if a guy manages to get my pants off. Once the pants come off, it’s all downhill from there. Luckily, those instances have been few and far between. I’m typically very aware of whether or not I want to agree to take them off. My pants seem to be my mental chastity belt.

  • SayWhaat

    @Sassy-I can also feel satisfied by passionate kissing.

    Ditto. I can see how men would get frustrated by that though, hahaha.

  • SayWhaat

    Side note: I must say that after getting railed on in reddit for daring to explain why the “sexual double-standard” has biological roots, HUS is quite a welcome respite. 😛

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Side note: I must say that after getting railed on in reddit for daring to explain why the “sexual double-standard” has biological roots, HUS is quite a welcome respite.

    Did you felt particularly masochist that day? God knows I purposely don’t talk about this in polite presence let alone the Interne.

  • WarmWoman

    “Ditto. I can see how men would get frustrated by that though, hahaha”

    I’ve heard men ask “What’s the point of sex if you don’t orgasm?” I can still find sex without an orgasm satisfying too.

  • SayWhaat

    Did you felt particularly masochist that day? God knows I purposely don’t talk about this in polite presence let alone the Interne.

    Eh. I made a mistake by leaving what I thought was a neutral comment. Whatevs, won’t do that again, lol.

  • SayWhaat

    I’ve heard men ask “What’s the point of sex if you don’t orgasm?” I can still find sex without an orgasm satisfying too.

    Just another difference between the sexes, I suppose.

  • SayWhaat

    I doubt there are many guys who would dwell on it if her number was something like, 2.

    Question for the guys.

    I think we’ve touched on this before but I’d like more clarification. We know that a woman’s sexual history is obviously threatening to a man, but what of her romantic history? If she has only had one or two lovers in her life, would you feel threatened that she may have never gotten over her ex (particularly in the Facebook age), and would that affect your decision to LTR?

  • sweetsue

    Not sure there is concurrence on the experimentation is due to a psychological problem. It could be a mere matter of curiosity. The problem is there is not enough contextual information to accurately assess the validity of that statement.

  • Lokland

    @Saywhaat

    No

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I agree with Charm that promiscuous men tend to have issues too.

    Yea, I’d say that’s true.

  • Dogsquat

    Ahh, Escoffier, I should have known. You’re a smart dude.

    Good luck with the knee. PT is usually best, but we’ve gotten pretty good at knee surgery. It’s much less common to here patients complain about past knee surgeries than, say, shoulder or spine work.

    One more piece of unsolicited advice (okay, two), if I may:

    Don’t be afraid to get two or more opinions on it. Lots of patients don’t realize they can do this, or they worry about offending the doc. Fuck that. There’s A TON of variation in how orthopedic issues are managed. Different docs have different skill, training, and experience. Even if you a pay a couple hundred bucks out of pocket for an eval, it’s worth it. You’d go to 5 car lots before you bought a car, and your body is much more important.

    Also, do your PT religiously – especially after surgery. Almost every patient I talk to that complains of “botched surgery” and “crappy doctors” failed to complete PT. Good PT is almost as importand as a good surgeon.

  • Dogsquat

    Warm woman said:

    “When I first joined HUS, some of the men on here were telling me “You have to tell him about your past” as if it was some kind of law. 😉 Here’s how I see it. If he doesn’t ask, he obviously doesn’t want to know and finds it irrelevant.”

    A smart, perceptive guy who is in to you will notice you lying. I dislike being lied to, even if it’s to “protect my feelings”. It’s not protecting my feelings – it’s concealing information I need to accurately evaluate my situation. In addition, I start wondering what else has been lied about.

    A good strategy for women with “a past” is to deflect the question in a classy way. Don’t provide information that isn’t health or finance (kids/child support etc.) related. There is risk is that, though. You’ll be judged based on other cues the guy picks up. Sometimes that’s not accurate.

    The benefit to classy avoidance is that it gives you gals a shot to show how awesome you can be.

    For example, I am extremely unnatracted to promiscuity. It’s a deal breaker for me. I’m a lot less tolerant of it than many dudes, but there’s still some gray area. Now, a super attractive billionaire who owns a chain of liquor stores and convulses with pleasure at the thought of cooking for me – well, she’s getting a lot more leeway than most.

    Understand that the leeway is destroyed for a lot of guys if the billionaire gal comes right out and says,”I’ve banged 6 of your friends and 40 people a year since I was 12,” or something.

    Less history, more mystery. Give the guy a little room for his hamster to run.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    If she has only had one or two lovers in her life, would you feel threatened that she may have never gotten over her ex (particularly in the Facebook age), and would that affect your decision to LTR?

    Not if I had a good idea of how she felt about me. And if I didn’t have a good idea, I wouldn’t be in a relationship.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com The Private Man

    And in other news, male HUS lurkers all collectively commit the sin of onanism.

  • Escoffier

    Dog, thanks. Yeah, no way I will face the knife without at least one more evaluation and maybe two.

    I just started (pre-surgery) PT today and I intend to be very dedicated. I’ve been quite good about sticking to the swimming, the weights, the planks, the krav, everything really, and I am a naturally lazy person so this is something of a change for me but anyway I will be good about the PT because I know how important it is.

    I really want to avoid the knife if possible the only way I will do it is if 2+ docs say, If you don’t do this now you will have big trouble later on. Because honestly, it doesn’t even hurt now, it just feels unsteady.

    Both the doc and the PT did say, for the time being, no squats and no deads so I am laying off those. Leg curls are encouraged but not extensions. Krav, my doctor wants me not to do. I have to find a way around that. I really don’t want to give it up.

  • Dogsquat

    @ SayWhaat

    I’d say the answer to that depends on the guy’s individual experience.

    When I was much younger, I declined a relationship with a girl who was still in love with a guy who’d unfortunately died while they were together. I didn’t want to “compete” with an idealized dead guy. I also steered clear of newly broken-up with women.

    Now that I’ve been around a little longer, I’d be more likely to give those gals a shot. I now know that the jilted, pining girl doesn’t actually want to feel that way. Ideally, she wants to love someone that loves her back.

    There are obviously many, many other factors to consider, but Present Day Dogsquat wouldn’t always consider that a dealbreaker.

    Young Hardcharging Dogsquat would run like hell.

  • Ted D

    Say what -“If she has only had one or two lovers in her life, would you feel threatened that she may have never gotten over her ex (particularly in the Facebook age), and would that affect your decision to LTR?”

    No.

  • Ted D

    Doh. Stupid iPad fixed Saywhaat to say what. My bad…

  • Passer_By

    @Say what

    “If she has only had one or two lovers in her life, would you feel threatened that she may have never gotten over her ex (particularly in the Facebook age), and would that affect your decision to LTR?”

    In the abstract? No, not if she was into me sexually and all that. If she called his name out during sex and constantly compared me (unfavorably) to him? Well, yeah. lol

  • J

    Esco–Sorry to hear about your ACL. I once tore my meniscus and averted surgery with PT. I swear by it It can work miracles if you do what your supposed to. Even if you end up having surgery, do youR post-op PT. It’s amazing.

    Good luck with this!

  • Dinkney Pawson

    And in other news, male HUS lurkers all collectively commit the sin of onanism.

    One would rather hope it is/was individually.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      One would rather hope it is/was individually.

      Thanks, that’s my first big laugh of the day!

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Charm
    “Yes, he’s insecure and less of a man If he cares. Many men dont want to rock the boat. Id love to see a anonymous survey of how men in the 21st century actually feel about it. People can call it what they want, but I still aimt havin’ it. But I have very strong opinions about everything which makes me judgemental so….”

    Wait. So you’re all about women screening for men’s numbers, as you say you do, but then you resort to shaming language that us men are ‘insecure and less of a man’ if we care about numbers?

    Or are you saying that most men don’t want to go against the social stigma of such shaming language they’re usually submitted to, even though they should be asking these questions, because they don’t want to rock the boat?

  • sweetsue

    “I mean aside from Sassy, I’ve never once heard of a woman claiming she just needed to get laid–”I do have some female friends who have talked about “just wanting to get fucked” after a week of classes/work.

    Interesting. Based on conversations with friends, who shall remain nameless – Vegas Rules and all :) invariably when women does say this – it is not as simple as it appears and should not necessarily be taken at face value. There is a subtext and a context.

    As the convo continues – what is being sought is yes a physical connection and a release; but it is being done for comfort to feel better, forget about the day the problem their responsibilities and just be connect person to person at least for “awhile” and feel emotionally secure and safe.

    For example guy friends have made the same statement – folks like to talk to me :) and in this instance they say they just want a physical release a workout alternative – stress relief and physically pleasant sensations.

    My advice to women friends is if you are going to indulge and scratch that itch with someone be honest with yourself about what you really want and with the other person as to your expectations, own your $%&#. If the expectations are not synched – buy a battery operated buddy and a stuffed animal and indulge in a long hot bath and a glass of whatever liquid refreshment you choose. Sex won’t change his mind and if it is not what you really won’t it make you happy. Don’t mistake feeding a hunger (fast food) with having an satisfying experience that satisfies the senses (Le Bec Fin) .

    My advice to guy friends is to explain that the context matters and there is always a subtext; so know what you want; convey it up front so there are no misunderstandings or hurt feelings later, unless the other person is not honest with themselves. It takes confidence to state what you want upfront and straight forward. That is attractive which could trigger an attraction response on her part -so make sure to be clear that what she says is what she means. Restate what your are told to make sure you are on the same page and proceed with caution. Say what you mean and mean what you say and walk the talk.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ SayWhaat on a couple partners

    I’d avoid them as a committed LTR if they show signs of still being hung up on the ex. Usually because I’ve seen women do that and then flake out after a week or two of using a new guy to get over the old. I wouldn’t mind enjoying those two weeks, but I wouldn’t change my life around her or anything.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Heh. I’ve heard many girls say they just need to get laid and mean it before they even had a single drink. All promiscuous women of theatre. One of the many reasons I stopped dating theatre women.

  • J

    “You have to tell him about your past” as if it was some kind of law. . This situation hasn’t happened in my life yet. ,/I>

    I have never had a man ask me for a number, my DH included. I would probably dump a man who asked, mostly because I feel that asking is a sign that even a low number would be too many and that answering the question would only lead to more questions that there were no good answers to.

  • Passer_By

    @Leap of Beta

    I had to read it twice two, but she was amplifying Ramble’s point that pop culture and society brainwash guys into fearing they will be viewed as less of a man if they care about such things.

  • Charm

    @saywhaat

    Ive only had two. But we broke up for a reason so I no longer have feelings for them. If a person still does for whatever reason then they should acknowledge they are not ready for a relationship.

    I think having had a couple of relationship shows selectivity, though it depends on seriousness and duration as well.

    But I will add that Once I break from a person, all feelings are gone. Its relatively easy for me to do which might sound bad but love is a choice for me so othes experiences may very.

  • Lokland

    @WW

    If I detected avoidance that would be worse than a high count. As for don’t ask, don’t tell. Ya theres no need to mention it.

    @ Saywhaat

    Reasoning for all the no’s;

    Women tend to get over men very quickly. The situation Passer_By described I’ve only ever seen in movies and maybe Sassy and her ex.
    Therefore old love is really just that in most cases OLD love. 4

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Women tend to get over men very quickly.

      Yes, if by quickly you mean a couple of years.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    J,

    I have never had a man ask me for a number, my DH included. I would probably dump a man who asked, mostly because I feel that asking is a sign that even a low number would be too many and that answering the question would only lead to more questions that there were no good answers to.

    I only asked my ex when I was pretty sure it was over anyway. I’ve never asked a woman otherwise. Yet, I sympathize with guys who do or would, because while the CDC say otherwise, the impression is that there are a great many women participating in hook up culture in college.

    Honestly, the number means so little. Not only because women can lie, but b/c it only means P in V to most people anyway (think “Clerks”). In a society where many people think of oral sex as advanced making out, the number of P in V partners is only one part of the equation.

    I think you’re better off getting to know your partner as well as you can. If there are gaps in her history, taboo subjects, people she tries to avoid, etc.. those should be red flags.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    jess

    there is research suggesting higher count people have higher self esteem than lower count people.

    Do you have links to reputable studies?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JM

      Do you have links to reputable studies?

      Of course not, she has links to British newspapers with topless women on the cover.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    Women tend to get over men very quickly. The situation Passer_By described I’ve only ever seen in movies and maybe Sassy and her ex.
    Therefore old love is really just that in most cases OLD love. 4

    I am happy to report that I am finally over him. I didn’t know if this time would ever come, but it has. It seems that I took a hair of the dog that bit me, so to speak, by attempting to date him again. The second time around, I finally got all the answers to my lingering questions. We were able to make a clean break, and my heart genuinely feels lighter these days.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    sweetsue,

    what is being sought is yes a physical connection and a release; but it is being done for comfort to feel better, forget about the day the problem their responsibilities

    These are the same reasons someone might choose to smoke a blunt or two on the weekends. Doesn’t make them bad people. Doesn’t make them people I want to hang around, but it doesn’t make them bad people.

    and just be connect person to person at least for “awhile”

    I can understand that. But it implies a bit of isolation and desperation. If someone wants to make a “connection” with someone, there are more constructive ways of doing it.

    and feel emotionally secure and safe.

    In the arms of a person who doesn’t feel anything for them? Or is it just that they want to escape themselves for “awhile”?

    It’s interesting, when I read this post earlier today, I expected to get riled up. Certainly the last time promiscuity was the official topic of discussion here I did. I was in a different place, though. Now I don’t really care either way. People who need the temporary fix that casual sex somehow provides aren’t bad people and they don’t make me angry or threatened. They’re just more on a par with people who don’t know how to stop texting and making cell phone calls. They can be okay people, but they’re just not worth my time. If they can’t stand to be alone with themselves, than I sure as heck don’t think it’s worth the effort.

  • SayWhaat

    One of the many reasons I stopped dating theatre women.

    The BF is an opera singer. One of the reasons he stopped dating singers was because he didn’t want that competitiveness within the field to suffocate the relationship.

    Wait’ll he hears me singing in the shower…hehehe.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The BF is an opera singer.

      I love this so much. Talk about understanding the full range of human emotions!

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    “Yet, I sympathize with guys who do or would, because while the CDC say otherwise, the impression is that there are a great many women participating in hook up culture in college.”

    Ditto here. The environment, exaggerated as it is, kind of makes this kind of frank Q&A session much more common. As the recent thread on sex stats showed, half of people are in the low-to-mid single digits. I’m not sure why anyone “in the box” would get offended that kind of question. IMO number + context will give you everything you need to know to make a sound decision about commiting to someone. Of course, asking never works with people who lie or resort to window dressing.

    Stupid question — how does someone avoid a formerly “promiscious” guy or girl? Especially if merely asking the question will get you penalized. I mean, if someone gets offended and refuses to be candid, that’s a kind of answer all by itself…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Stupid question — how does someone avoid a formerly “promiscious” guy or girl? Especially if merely asking the question will get you penalized. I mean, if someone gets offended and refuses to be candid, that’s a kind of answer all by itself…

      This is very easy in college, but once kids graduate, all bets are off. People go out into the big city and reinvent themselves in whatever way they wish. And for the record, I don’t think Roissy’s slut tells are valid. I think Dogsquat once talked about how he susses out this information – encouraging women to let their hair down and fess up, essentially.

      We definitely need a filter for that.

  • SayWhaat

    Stupid question — how does someone avoid a formerly “promiscious” guy or girl? Especially if merely asking the question will get you penalized. I mean, if someone gets offended and refuses to be candid, that’s a kind of answer all by itself…

    Usually, the signs present themselves. Promiscuity is rewarded in our society so the guy/girl in question would probably feel like they had bragging rights about their sexual prowess. If they felt shame, they would hem and haw and evade whenever you so much as approach the topic in conversation. Background check with friends if you can (though that isn’t a fail-safe, especially if they’re closer to the person in question than they are to you). And I guess family relationships would provide another clue.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Older brothers are protective of their sisters, but little brothers will cough up any necessary information you require. Not that I’ve ever used this tactic. But I’m pretty sure it’s fail proof.

  • lalady

    My “number” is 10 mostly because of a promiscuous phase I had from roughly senior year of high school through sophomore year of college. It wasn’t until then that I suppose I took the female “red pill” and learned about game. It was from a drunken hookup and subsequent casual sex partner that I fell hard for, only to be unceremoniously dumped by the day after our first real date – which made it that much harder since the date had made me think he’d fallen for me too. His first two favorite books listed on Facebook were “The Game” and “The Art of Seduction” (Yes, really. I know.) After being dumped, I decided to order “The Art of Seduction” to try and figure out how I’d been tricked. In reality though, I hadn’t been tricked at all, at least not by him. I’d been tricked by the culture at large into thinking that there is no meaningful difference between men and women and their responses to sex. I thought there was something wrong with me when I kept banging my head against the door and it kept hurting. It wasn’t until after the “Art of Seduction” order was placed and Amazon suggested “The Game” (which I had assumed was about football) to me that I did some Googling. I soon found Roissy, and my trip down the rabbit hole began.

    Anyway, eventually I got my attitude adjusted, realized that sleeping with a guy right away is not the best idea, and started living my life accordingly. Many of the subsequent men I’ve dated or even been friends with have commented on how “innocent” and “pure” I seem. One asked if I was a virgin. Number 9 (who at the time I thought was a serious boyfriend prospect) said, “I bet I’m only the third guy you’ve slept with!” I answered the former’s question truthfully, but did not correct the latter 😉

    So for all you guys that think you can somehow tell if a girl is a slut or not, think again. In some cases that’s definitely true, but I’ve found that the only information most guys take into account in that respect is how you act around THEM. Once I started acting like a girl who valued herself and her sexuality, guys started assuming I was, and had always been, a good girl.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @lalady

      Welcome, thanks for sharing that comment. I give you a lot of credit for doing that self-examination and figuring out why you were behaving a certain way.

      I’d been tricked by the culture at large into thinking that there is no meaningful difference between men and women and their responses to sex.

      Thank feminism for that – women try on sexual liberation and then can’t understand why it feels like crap, and why guys dump them immediately. I’m glad you took the red pill.

  • SayWhaat

    So for all you guys that think you can somehow tell if a girl is a slut or not, think again. In some cases that’s definitely true, but I’ve found that the only information most guys take into account in that respect is how you act around THEM. Once I started acting like a girl who valued herself and her sexuality, guys started assuming I was, and had always been, a good girl.

    Agreed. I was more than a little stunned when I found out that Alison Brie (good girl “Annie Edison” on Community) was a raging slut in college. She has such an innocent face and vibe.

  • SayWhaat

    I’d been tricked by the culture at large into thinking that there is no meaningful difference between men and women and their responses to sex. I thought there was something wrong with me when I kept banging my head against the door and it kept hurting.

    This is very poignant.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SayWhaat
    Thanks, I was just thinking out loud. Obviously, someone proud of it wouldn’t be offended by the question. Looking for circumstantial signs as you suggest might work, but you could always assume incorrectly. I guess the better question is how do you determine what kind of a person you’re interested in before you really fall for him or her (i.e. sleep together)?

    It just seems like being honest as early as possible in the relationship would avoid all this evasionary dancing around. Seems like that would help both people determine whether they’re compatible.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Honestly, I’d rather a woman just be honest about it. Obviously, if she gets away with saying nothing, I’d be none the wiser, but I’m sure I would end the relationship in a heartbeat if it seemed as if she were hiding her past and I found out.

    Btw, lalady, 10 isn’t terrible super slut or anything.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Agreed. I was more than a little stunned when I found out that Alison Brie (good girl “Annie Edison” on Community) was a raging slut in college. She has such an innocent face and vibe.

    i will say to the lurkers not trusting into be that girl that cannot be tell is a slut, IME this is a lot harder. Coming back from sluttiness after certain number (that varies depending on the person) is nearly impossible. Is very likely that you can learn to fake it (and SayWhaat she is an actress for a reason) but in the end in the bed only a very inexperience guy won’t notice certain things about you or that he doesn’t want to notice or that you are such a good package that whatever he might be thinking he rather just not think about it too hard, but then there is the problem that if 15 years in the marriage some of this information comes up and is in the middle of a crisis things can get a turn for the ugly really fast. Is better to be on the safe side just in case.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ana,

    Yea. That made me think of deti. Honestly, I don’t know how he’s coping with that. 15 years of lying about your sexual past… Idk, seems almost as bad as cheating.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Oh, and that whole Alison Brie story… Ugh, though the pot smoking would be a clue, no?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    “Oh, and that whole Alison Brie story… Ugh, though the pot smoking would be a clue, no?”

    And she became a successful actress. That kind of fame tends to blunt any feelings of remorse or second thoughts. Think of the girls who do that kind of stuff and don’t succeed in life. What happens then? They’ve severely restricted the % of guys who will ever want to commit to them. Hindsight’s a bitch. Less is probably more, in the long run.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega

    And she became a successful actress. That kind of fame tends to blunt any feelings of remorse or second thoughts. Think of the girls who do that kind of stuff and don’t succeed in life. What happens then? They’ve severely restricted the % of guys who will ever want to commit to them. Hindsight’s a bitch. Less is probably more, in the long run.

    I don’t understand the lack of shame or what separates a person like that from someone like Tucker Max.

  • purplesneakers

    Maybe! I wonder if men really do wonder if their girl has “been around” by her performance in bed.

    I always wondered about this. Isn’t it possible that the girl who’s had 2 partners, both in lengthy LTRs, and had sex with them frequently, is “better” in bed than the girl whose sexual history is basically a string of drunken one-night stands?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    I don’t know much about this Tucker guy. Actors, celebrities, artists, etc. tend to be on the promiscuous side, especially when they achieve fame, success, and lots of money. There are exceptions to the rule (Leelee Sobieski comes to mind). I actually think that kind of exposure changes a person’s brain chemistry.

  • SayWhaat

    Ugh, though the pot smoking would be a clue, no?

    What’s wrong with pot?

  • Charm

    @Leap

    Lol, NO NO NO! I hate double standards and I hate hypocrites. I was being sarcastic though, now that I reread it I see that it wasn’t conveyed as well as I had thought. Damn.

    What I meant to say was if a man cares them people tell him:
    “Get over it”
    “You’re an insecure little boy”
    “You’re sexist or misogynistic”

    I personally think it is a choice. It matters to some people. It matters to me and I don’t want to be told to get over it. Its my preference. I think men also have a right to an honest answer. Now if a man sleep around and demands a chaste women, he will get no respect from me. But if a man values sex with partners I don’t think there is nothing wrong with being bothered by a women with a promiscuous pass.

    Whenever I google promiscuity and read some of the links with men confessing to being put off or uncomfortable about having discovered their partners slutty past all the responses are trying to shame them. I dislike that. If people are allowed to not be bothered by it, then Im not going to force them to care, but people who dislike it also have the right to. Feminism can kiss my ass. They may be able to brainwash a lot of women, and some men, but they can’t brainwash me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega,

    I know very few celebs (to the point that I’ve met a few and only realized it after the fact when I was told) and even less about their personal lives… I prefer it that way. Tucker Max is a douche bag.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Saywhaat,

    Nothing’s “wrong” with pot. But I wouldn’t ever be surprised to find out that someone who smoked it regularly was promiscuous. And I’d be less inclined to believe a pot smoker who claimed never to have been promiscuous.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    –Plus the fact that I wouldn’t get into a relationship with a pot smoker whether or not I thought she was promiscuous.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @JM
    You’re rather puritanical in your preferences : )

    I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. Personally, cigarette smoking and/or tattoos were turn-offs. I don’t know about dealbreakers, but definitely unattractive.

  • Charm

    Stupid question — how does someone avoid a formerly “promiscious” guy or girl? Especially if merely asking the question will get you penalized. I mean, if someone gets offended and refuses to be candid, that’s a kind of answer all by itself…

    I agree with saywhaat the signs are there and they generally have not problem talking very in depth about it. From what I have observed people who have casual sex a lot wear it as some kind of badge of honor. The guy I worked with that was well into the triple digits used to say how most people are stuck up about sex and refuse to talk about. I disagree. I think that most people don’t feel the need or have the desire to talk about sex. Look at how much sex sells in this damn country. Hell someone is buying it. I dislike how promiscuous people try to play the “Im sleep around which means Im comfortable with my sexuality” card. Its not like sex is this thing that is only reserved for the most special people in the world. Most people partake in it one some level. I think that if having X number of partners is your trump card then thats sad.

    Re How do I avoid people with high counts?

    Well, I’ve read a lot of game blogs and some guys talk about how they get burned out of game and are ready to settle down. Thats all fine and dandy, but odds are it wont be with me. I literally have not problem with saying out loud “I don’t date people who like casual sex because I value sex and do not care to be with someone who does not.” Call me crazy, but it gets results. I like people to know up front what I wont put up with. Does this make dating a bit harder for me? Yes, I wont deny it, but eventually someone will appreciate my upfront honestly. Ive been told it is refreshing.

    Thing is the two most valuable things I have is my body and my time. Only I can protect both of those things. The odds of me catching an STI from a promiscuous man is higher, and the odds of him then getting bored and cheating, thus wasting my precious time (and fertility) is also higher. Im all for risks that make gains, but I do not like ones in which I don’t gain much. Risking my body, and time on a man with a high body count when there are less risky men is ridiculous.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I don’t know much about this Tucker guy. Actors, celebrities, artists, etc. tend to be on the promiscuous side, especially when they achieve fame, success, and lots of money. I actually think that kind of exposure changes a person’s brain chemistry.

    Well according to blind items every single celebrity we had mentioned at HUS at any point is bisexual or is gay/lesbian with a beard, so yeah…

    There are exceptions to the rule (Leelee Sobieski comes to mind).
    She is not alone. http://waitingtillmarriage.org/category/celebrities-who-waited-till-marriage/ of course she has been married twice already so I really don’t know how that fares for her prospects. I any case there are others that are in similar trends.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega

    A puritanical atheist. lol.

    I grew up suffering neglect and abuse from alcoholics and pot heads. I’ve had friends who moved from pot to acid to heroin to dead.

    I have no problem with someone having a drink or two to relax after a hard day and all that… but I have no use for people who get drunk or high. My view is that if you can’t hack life facing it head on that’s fine, but I have no time for you. I’ll be spending my time with people I actually respect.

    Life’s a crazy riotous adventure all on it’s own. I don’t need chemicals to make it more interesting.

  • Charm

    I agree with Jesus.

    Most of my family member partook in a lot of much harder drugs than weed when I was a kid. My older sister started smoking it in the 9th grade and dropped out and didn’t get her GEC until she was 21. Ive seen the ramifications of drug use and I dislike it. I wouldn’t mind being friends with someone who smoked (though we probably wouldnt be close) but dating them is out of the question.

    @Megaman

    Tattoos rule! *says the younger generation*

    Though too many, can be unattractive.

  • Passer_By

    @purplesneakers

    “Isn’t it possible that the girl who’s had 2 partners, both in lengthy LTRs, and had sex with them frequently, is “better” in bed than the girl whose sexual history is basically a string of drunken one-night stands?”

    Not possible, probable – assuming she cared at all. Though I’m guessing someone is was sort of a combination might be even more skilled.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Charm
    “Tattoos rule! *says the younger generation*”

    Sexual regret starts to kick in when people are looking to settle down, usually mid-to-late 20s. Tattoo regret won’t kick in until you hit 40 (or later)!

    Add weird piercings to the unattractive list. But I’d never say smoking, drinking, tattoos, body-mods all = promiscuous. I’ve met a couple of ladies who disproved the stereotype. Didn’t make them look any better, though…

  • Lokland

    @ JM, Charm, Saywhaat

    I’m with JM and Charm. Pot is a dealbreaker its up there with smoking or drinking excessively.

    Mostly because its an escape from reality.

    Also had druggie grandparents on one side and an alcoholic grandfather on the other side.
    Similarities much?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Charm,

    Most of my family member partook in a lot of much harder drugs than weed when I was a kid. My older sister started smoking it in the 9th grade and dropped out and didn’t get her GEC until she was 21. Ive seen the ramifications of drug use and I dislike it. I wouldn’t mind being friends with someone who smoked (though we probably wouldnt be close) but dating them is out of the question.

    Similar deal. I’m the only Mahoney of my generation (out of 12) to get a high school diploma, let alone go on to college. I don’t get the allure of the whole drinking/smoking thing. People get drunk and high and… do the same stupid things they’d be doing sober.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mega,

    Obviously pot smoking doesn’t always equal promiscuity, but it’s not uncommon. First, it lowers inhibitions. Second, it shows a lack of self-respect. Third and last, it’s a cheap form of escape.

    The second and third are problematic (and unattractive) even if the woman weren’t promiscuous.

  • Charm

    @Megaman

    Oh, I know tattoos start to look like crap after a while, though if you take care of your skin they can look better a while longer. The way I see it, were all gonna end up looking like burlap sacks anyway, it doesnt really matter to me. Not like Im gonna be sporting a bikini at 45+. Though, I agree, a lot of people don’t really think it all the way through. They do it because they think its cool. I remember get a new tattoo a couple of years ago, and everyone else all of a sudden wanted one too. But I see them as my way of enjoying my youth and expressing myself. Some people do drugs, or drink and party, or have lots of sex in their youth. I chose the get ink. And I respect people who dislike it, which again, is why I tell people upfront that while they can only see 2 small ones, that I have much larger ones, just in case they dislike it.

  • Charm

    Smoking weed to me means that you seek instant gratification or you need a substance to deal with your problems or to make yourself feel better( so I can understand how someone thinks promiscuous as well). I know some people smoke it to relax or whatever, but if you want to clear your mind do some yoga or meditate or something. Smoking weed is the easy way out.

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    Jesus M.
    Idk. In a way, I feel like you should judge the person for whom they are now. I mean, unless you’re buying a home in the neighborhood where the woman slept around. Yet, it’s obviously a significant part of a person’s history. And if the person doesn’t think it is, then… that might be worse.

    Thank you so much for this. I absolutely agree.

    There’s two sides to this. I understand that people have preferences, that’s fine. I also understand the risk of being with those who had casual sex (men and women) when it comes to health, fidelity, and pregnancy.

    But the other side is this. If a person has changed for the better and is no longer who they were in the past, then why refer to them as who they were? It’s like continually calling a woman a slut even though that was who she was in the PAST. No matter how much she has changed and the fact that she no longer lives that lifestyle. Seriously, it’s like guys almost treat it like a personal insult or a slight against them somehow. Can people not change?

  • purplesneakers

    I kind of assume that men have been/are promiscuous (and only looking for something “casual”) if they are very good-looking AND tall. Sometimes I can also just tell based on body language, facial expression, and how a guy looks at you (which reveals whether he’s intimidated by you, cares a lot about your approval, etc.). Of course I may be assuming too much here.

  • Charm

    @Renee

    I understand your point. It is extremely relevant. I believe people really can change. However, I think that those same people need to understand that it might bother some. I don’t prefer but is that written in stone? No. I could understand it under certain circumstances. But a person simply refusing to talk about it and saying “its in the past” won’t get you anywhere with me.

    Change, to me, means that you’ve acknowledged something and move on from it. So in this case I think a person should be able to openly talk about past behavior. A lot of people want to sweep it under the rug and that makes me distrust them. If someone came to me and said “Look I slept with a bunch of people in the past for [insert honest reason], Im not proud of it, and decided to change my behavior because of XYZ”, I could respect that. I think it shows maturity through owning your shit.

    But how many people honestly do that? They try to hide it or lie. They all just want people to get over it. Telling people to get over it means you’re not even cognizant of the risk the person is taking investing in your ass. Thats extremely selfish and arrogant. Im open to talking about it like adults if a person is also willing to engage me and be completely honest about it. But the reality of the situation is that when people get older they all want stability, and promiscuous past makes you less stable, so I’d advice people to step it up in some other area.

  • purplesneakers

    I meant to add- so it must be easier for girls than for guys to screen out promiscuous partners. That men do the approaching most often makes it so that girls get a sense of what kind of guy is after what.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I meant to add- so it must be easier for girls than for guys to screen out promiscuous partners. That men do the approaching most often makes it so that girls get a sense of what kind of guy is after what.

    Is actually easy to spot but hard to reject the level of confidence says how many women the man has bedded.
    The thing is it seems that confidence is the Female Viagra and very few woman will look for anything else and overlook any other lacking if a guy has confidence and seems like he knows what he is doing.
    But men are not like women women can be hurt or healed by words if you read a self help book or many enough and you surrounded yourself with people that tell you “how wonderful you are” you are likely to achieve confidence on yourself out of of the thin air of words. But if you tell the same things to a man but when he approaches one or several girls they don’t respond to him he is not going to buy the sweet words he won’t become confident till he actually gets results from his efforts, so confidence on a guy come 99% out of personal success with women and the most successful the guy the closer to the manwhore profile he is.
    Now tell that to a woman that just have her panties wet for one member of this elusive species and see if she will just walk out…chances are she will tell herself anything she needs to hear to take her chances with him, YMMV.

  • Charm

    @purplesneakers

    yea, its probably much harder for men. it sucks, but id gladly lend my method for weeding them out, though you will get called a judgmental asshole in the process, which is just a small price to pay. also guys can meet girls through women they know aren’t promiscuous can’t they? isnt this why its best to hunt in a familiar environment so you are at least partially informed about the girl? though, i dont know maybe girls will lie for their friends who have been slutty.

  • Lokland

    @Renee

    “Can people not change?”

    Ya but how many, 50%, 75?

    Also keep in mind that most people don’t need to change.

    I’ll give you an example, I get two kinds of applications for lab positions. Those who had 90s in their third and fourth year of uni (or grad w/e it is) and those who were consistent all the way through.

    I have NEVER hired someone who picked it up in the end stretch. Quite simply, everyone has a past and MOST PEOPLE don’t need to change.

    In the end it all comes down to this, “you fucked up,” and theres 10 more people who didn’t.
    You may get to the same place where the journey is the only distinguishable difference and most people would prefer consistency,

    So, I agree, people can change. But why deal with those people when you can deal with the large majority that don’t need to change?

  • Charm

    @Renee

    I’d also like to add that promiscuous people are trying to have their cake and eat it too. When girls sleep around they generally get alot of attention from men. Men really like them, and more chaste women tend to get ignored, but when its time for marriage and kids the tables turn. Promiscuous girls get tossed to the bottom of the barrel. Sure, maybe its not fair, but thats life. Its not fair how attractive women get treated better than homely girls. Its not fair that some men were blessed with height (thus desirable) while others were not. Promiscuous girls get upset because they can’t have their cake now and later. But thats what delayed gratification is all about. Good things have always come to those who wait.

    The guy that was a loser all through his teens and early 20s (for whatever reason) but bloomed later on in life got no sympathy from anyone at the time, so why should I sympathize with a former promiscuous woman? We all get dealt a hand and we choose how we play it. But we all knew the rules and risks involved. So, I feel sorry for no one.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Charm
    Thanks for clarifying. I was confused, because you seemed like on of the last women I’d expect to circle the wagons, but I’ve been surprised by that before.

    @SayWhaat
    The professionalism and career were part of it. And a large part at that (had one bad break up and thats all I needed to see what a petty ex can do for your career in the arts). That and just realizing while the theatre people are the ones I love to spend time with, they’re not what I’m looking for in a significant other at all.

  • Charm

    In the end it all comes down to this, “you fucked up,” and theres 10 more people who didn’t.
    You may get to the same place where the journey is the only distinguishable difference and most people would prefer consistency

    +1

    I think promiscuous people (especially women) start to sweat once they realize the long term ramifications of their decisions. They get to marrying age and wonder why men are wary of choosing them to mother their children. Promiscuous women don’t give a damn when they are lowering the value of sex for all young women in their 20s simply because they want to have a “good time”. Girls who don’t put out are stigmatized because men are expecting it do to what they’ve been told. Then the tables turn later on. I wont shed on tear over it.

  • Charm

    @Leap

    Lol. Nah, Ill never pull the old switcheroo on anyone. If I choose to change my position on an issue it will only happen after I have spent ample time reconsidering. Haven’t you learned by now that Im pretty headstrong? I shall not be moved!

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    Thanks for the responses :)

    I’ve always been wary the reasoning that women who are promiscuous have issues. I mean, yeah that’s true in some cases, but what about the fact that some females just enjoy sex? Are there levels of promiscuity – like say casual sex here and there vs. a sexual partner every week?

    Yes, I know men and women are different, but painting promiscuous women as generally women with deep issues may only deal with one type of promiscuous woman.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    That and just realizing while the theatre people are the ones I love to spend time with, they’re not what I’m looking for in a significant other at all.

    My husband is theatre people and he married me who is not. His coworker also “married” and accountant or something like it. I think theatre people rarely partner up unless they are actors is what I had seen so far, YMMV.

  • Charm

    @Renee

    For me, it has never come down to shaming people for enjoying sex. It is obviously human nature to enjoy it. It is what we were designed for. What gets me is the risks men and women will take for a sexual release. You’d risk pregnancy and an STI with man partners over and over again just because you enjoy sex? That seems primitive. Animals do shit like this. Human beings have the mental capacity to see how this behavior could possibly work against them in the form of an STI and a unwanted child.

    If you like sex then find one partner and fuck their brains out. It doesn’t need to be done with a dozen people. The fact that people get do it with a ton of people means they get bored easily and will likely leave you once they get tired of you. I enjoy sex ONLY because Im doing it with someone I care about deeply. The orgasm is just the happy ending. If all I wanted was an orgasm well…they make stuff for that, no?

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Charm
    Haha. Fair. Nothing against you, I just am used to different styles of emotions/thinking in my every day life, so I hold those as the ‘norm’ of what I’ll run into there. Online things are much more diverse and malleable.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Of course not, she has links to British newspapers with topless women on the cover.

    I’d be open to her sharing links to topless women also.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I think Dogsquat once talked about how he susses out this information – encouraging women to let their hair down and fess up, essentially.

    Ultimately, I think this is the way to go. But it’s not as if this can be accomplished in an evening or even over the course of a few weeks. It requires one to slough off that whole judgmental mindset–and any sort of dependence on outcome–and then just stay perceptive.

    People generally don’t want to keep secrets. The moment they have a secret, they have the impulse to divulge it–and will, if they feel they won’t be judged harshly for it. While I didn’t come out and ask my ex about her past till the very end, I think I made it clear that I would disapprove of that kind of thing, so she knew that she had to hide it.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    “Yes, if by quickly you mean a couple of years.”

    Come on this is evopsych 101. Provider dies find new provider.
    If you mean not get over an alpha, ya that I understand. However alphas aren’t really into LTRs to begin with which is what Saywhaat asked about.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Come on this is evopsych 101. Provider dies find new provider.

      What can I say, my own experience and observations don’t always square with the red pill stuff, at least not to the same degree. As you say, most of the young men I know in relationships are beta guys, and I’ve seen many young women with broken hearts over them. The mythical alpha is just that.

  • Ramble

    Promiscuous women don’t give a damn when they are lowering the value of sex for all young women in their 20s simply because they want to have a “good time”.

    Which is why Slut Shaming was such an important part of the Bad, Old days.

  • Jason

    I think we’ve touched on this before but I’d like more clarification. We know that a woman’s sexual history is obviously threatening to a man, but what of her romantic history? If she has only had one or two lovers in her life, would you feel threatened that she may have never gotten over her ex (particularly in the Facebook age), and would that affect your decision to LTR?

    It’s all intertwined on a case by case basis. I’d take two LTRs in her life over a bunch of partners, but in general I’ve subscribed to the idea that if you are the best man that she has had to this point, then there won’t be a longing for the past on her part.

  • http://deleted Jason

    I’m surprised that more than a few posters wouldn’t ask for N or would be offended by it. Based on previous posts my stance is clear that I’m not afraid to ask, but it matters in which manner it is done. If it comes off as insecure, then it will be seen as insecure. If it comes off as logical and inquisitive with a solid frame, then it will be seen in that manner.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Renee,

    Thank you so much for this. I absolutely agree.

    There’s two sides to this. I understand that people have preferences, that’s fine. I also understand the risk of being with those who had casual sex (men and women) when it comes to health, fidelity, and pregnancy.

    But the other side is this. If a person has changed for the better and is no longer who they were in the past, then why refer to them as who they were? It’s like continually calling a woman a slut even though that was who she was in the PAST. No matter how much she has changed and the fact that she no longer lives that lifestyle. Seriously, it’s like guys almost treat it like a personal insult or a slight against them somehow. Can people not change?

    I have sympathy for a woman in this position. On the one hand, just coming out and telling a guy all about your past doesn’t seem like the right move–in the same way I wouldn’t sit a woman down and tell her all about my family history, which is full of red flags. You don’t want to be defined by that past. And yet, avoiding the topic altogether seems shady. If the guy finds out or gets suspicious, you’re most certainly going to look like you were being deceitful–and if you really are avoiding it, you kind of are being deceitful. If you go the third route and just mention it casually when the topic comes up, you make it seem like you don’t think anything of it.

    If the guy is sensitive to the subject (and let’s face it, the more the cads clean up and the more “relationship” guys sit on the sidelines, the more you’re going to find guys who are sensitive about this issue), then it’s going to be a difficult one to deal with no matter what.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jason,

    If it comes off as insecure, then it will be seen as insecure. If it comes off as logical and inquisitive with a solid frame, then it will be seen in that manner.

    It’s as simple as that. You mentioned that you’ve asked girls the morning after ONSs. If the girl is cool with you asking that question, it would seem to me an indicator that she isn’t into you for a relationship atm… Which means she was just DTF. Which means that whether you were first or fortieth, you’ve got a girl with a promiscuous mindset.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    *NOT as simple…

  • http://deleted Jason

    JM,

    I wouldn’t ever say a girl has been right of the bat cool with that question, where they go ‘Well *giggle giggle* my number is N’. Also, it’s not like I have asked every girl the morning after, considering my true ONS number is less than 5. My tactics have been more in line with what Susan posted earlier about Dogsquat…

    I think Dogsquat once talked about how he susses out this information – encouraging women to let their hair down and fess up, essentially.

    Make them feel comfortable, like it’s nbd and that I’m nonjudgemental. It’s amazing what you can get anyone to reveal by taking this attitude. Yeah, in reality what I am doing is deceptive, but it’s been the best tactic for my own ends.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      Make them feel comfortable, like it’s nbd and that I’m nonjudgemental. It’s amazing what you can get anyone to reveal by taking this attitude. Yeah, in reality what I am doing is deceptive, but it’s been the best tactic for my own ends.

      For the record, I have no problem with this kind of “deception.” It’s just sensible given the history of the sexual double standard and feminism’s attempt to eradicate it. It may be unfortunate for women, but your approach is probably the best way to get to the truth, and I think all men deserve that.

  • http://deleted Jason

    JM,

    I know you are in a relatively new relationship, but it’s been mentioned on here that you had an old one that went south in what I assume is a bad manner? I’m curious as to what happened if you don’t mind sharing, or if you want to link me to previous posts on the subject.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    DogSquat – “To make this prediction accurately you must understand why you feel the way you do now. People rarely bother to do any sort of meaningful self-examination. Worse, self-examination is easily confused with self-justification or infected by fantasy.”

    Exactly. I think I’ve tried to make this point several times, but I don’t think I’ve ever made it this simple to grasp. 😉

    Jamie – “For instance, a girl might date a guy for a few weeks, realize that there isn’t any long term potential but have sex with him anyway because he’s good looking and nice and usually orders pizza. It’s not ideal, but it’s better than nothing”

    If there is no long term potential, the thing to do is say so and leave. I would rather go with nothing than something that I know beyond all doubt isn’t going to work.

    Sweetsue – “As the convo continues – what is being sought is yes a physical connection and a release; but it is being done for comfort to feel better, forget about the day the problem their responsibilities and just be connect person to person at least for “awhile” and feel emotionally secure and safe.”

    OK I get that. But does a woman really get all that from a guy she picked up in a bar? If so, then I would question her capacity to know the “real deal” when she finds it, because to me it seems her bar is set rather low.

    J – “I have never had a man ask me for a number, my DH included. I would probably dump a man who asked, mostly because I feel that asking is a sign that even a low number would be too many and that answering the question would only lead to more questions that there were no good answers to.”

    Remember, for some men it isn’t JUST the number we are looking for. I want to know HOW she got there, and if she learned any useful life lessons along the way. Of course more questions would follow. I’m wondering why you think that would end badly?

    Jesus M – “I only asked my ex when I was pretty sure it was over anyway. I’ve never asked a woman otherwise. Yet, I sympathize with guys who do or would, because while the CDC say otherwise, the impression is that there are a great many women participating in hook up culture in college.”

    I ask every time. And not too far into the relationship so we aren’t wasting any time. But, as I said above, it isn’t just a tally. In this conversation, I also start trying to feel out how she felt about her previous relationships. What she liked about them, and disliked. How she dealt with fights, breakups, and exes all comes into play for me. I want to know how she handled all her previous romantic and sexual experiences (not in detail!) so I can get a feel for where she is coming from, and what I can expect going forward. For real, it is a bit like a job interview to me. But, as you and everyone here knows, I am indeed an odd bird, so I consider this a compatibility test. That doesn’t mean a woman with a casual past has no chance with me at all, but I would need to see some evidence of a “change of heart” for lack of a better term, before I would consider moving forward. I’m finding that can be a tall order. Not because women don’t have that change of heart, but because most don’t seem to want to admit it. So it takes some real detective work it seems, to figure out that part.

    Megaman – “IMO number + context will give you everything you need to know to make a sound decision about commiting to someone. Of course, asking never works with people who lie or resort to window dressing.”

    YES! This is exactly what I was getting at above. The “number” question comes as part of this conversation, where I want to know context of past events.

    “I mean, if someone gets offended and refuses to be candid, that’s a kind of answer all by itself…”

    Exactly.

    Lalady – “So for all you guys that think you can somehow tell if a girl is a slut or not, think again. In some cases that’s definitely true, but I’ve found that the only information most guys take into account in that respect is how you act around THEM. Once I started acting like a girl who valued herself and her sexuality, guys started assuming I was, and had always been, a good girl.”

    Well, if you are OK with knowing you are not being truthful with the man you claim to love, then I guess keeping your history a secret is fine in your book. Good for you.

    I can tell you that I pay at least as much attention to how a woman behaves with her friends and family as what she tells me to my face. In fact, if what she tells me doesn’t jive with how she acts with others, it clues me in to pay MORE attention to all the details.

    That being said, you also prove that a woman can start promiscuity in one mental “place” and through that learn and be in another mental “place” later in life, which for a guy like me is exactly what I would want to see. If we were attempting a relationship, the best outcome would be from being honest with me about your number, how you got it, and exactly what you learned FROM it. I could then make a judgment on if I believed you, and that your “transformation” (another bad word choice but its early and I’ve had no coffee yet…) is the real deal. Hiding it from me would probably just pique my curiosity and I’d start digging.

    Renee – “Seriously, it’s like guys almost treat it like a personal insult or a slight against them somehow. Can people not change?”

    Of course people can change. But, the concern for me here is: is the change for real? And, will this change stick? I’ve known people that were on drugs, and went to rehab. They were clean and sober while things were good, but as soon as life got tough, which it always does, they went back to using. To me, a promiscuous past is indeed a lot like a former drug addiction. Sure you can stop having casual sex, and even believe you are done with it. But what will happen when our relationship gets tough, as they all do? Will she still be willing to stay the course, or will she start longing for her “fix” again?

    Charm – “Change, to me, means that you’ve acknowledged something and move on from it. So in this case I think a person should be able to openly talk about past behavior. A lot of people want to sweep it under the rug and that makes me distrust them. If someone came to me and said “Look I slept with a bunch of people in the past for [insert honest reason], Im not proud of it, and decided to change my behavior because of XYZ”, I could respect that. I think it shows maturity through owning your shit.”

    Cosign and +1. This entire post was spot on Charm. 😉

    “If you like sex then find one partner and fuck their brains out. It doesn’t need to be done with a dozen people. “

    Oh My God! What a novel concept! You mean, if you want regular sex, it might be a good idea to find someone and form a LTR?! Surely you jest?

    That was sarcasm. I agree 100% with you and indeed this is exactly how I made it to 41 years old with a low partner count. I had lots of sex, with very few woman over the course of my life. In fact, I would put money on the fact that I’ve probably had more sex than many PUA/cad types, because other than the last several years of my marriage, every one of my LTRs included healthy helpings of sex. And, since I was in a LTR, I didn’t have to go out looking for it.

    I don’t get why young people are so afraid to just partner up. NO one says you have to marry them, but at least start practicing for the real deal so that when you DO find that person, you have experience dealing with relationships. Casual sex only prepares you for, wait for it, Casual sex!

    “I enjoy sex ONLY because Im doing it with someone I care about deeply. “
    Cosign and +1 again. And this is the other reason I question the depth and breadth of emotions felt by people that practice casual sex. I enjoy sex with my SO because of how I feel about her. Without those feelings, it would be nothing more than a mechanical process. Anyone that derives so much happiness and pleasure from only the mechanical part seems to me to be rather shallow, emotionally speaking.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Jason – “It’s all intertwined on a case by case basis. I’d take two LTRs in her life over a bunch of partners, but in general I’ve subscribed to the idea that if you are the best man that she has had to this point, then there won’t be a longing for the past on her part.”

    But that is the easy part man. If she is all happy to be with you, then you are probably the best guy she’s been with. But, what about five years from now? 10? Relationships are a bit like cars. They are great when they are new: they smell good, they are tight in the turns, and responsive. Over time, parts wear out, smell goes away, and now the repair bills start coming. Lots of people tend to dump their cars and get a new one when this happens, because new is always exciting. But, I prefer to stick with my cars as long as I can. I like the comfort I’ve built over the years driving it, and at least I know what problems it has, and what problems have already been fixed.

    So being the best man she has ever had may be easy in the now, but what about in the future?

  • Charm

    @Jesus

    From what I’ve seen, when it comes to having bad childhoods, it tends to go one of two ways for people:

    1. they are either pretty screwed up or scarred by it and carry that pain everywhere they go.

    or

    2. they emerged from it stronger and a better person because of it.

    I’ve personally fit the latter. Had I not had a bad childhood I probably wouldn’t be the person that I am today. Sure, it sucks not to have had the ideal like most other people but I can’t truly miss what i never had. I think that it is usually pretty evident if a person is the latter or the former. Plus, you and I never had a choice in matter. You simply cannot choose the family you got, but you have a choice in how you live with it. Currently Im estranged from my entire family because they literally only harm my quality of life. They still do drugs, sell drugs, commit crimes, steal and are very much stuck in the cycle of poverty.

    I can’t be apart of that crap. I was forced to endure it for 18 years, and I wont have it anymore. Now, I have a choice in the matter and I wont let all their bad decisions to impact my life any further. Im the opposite of all those negative things. Im on a damn mission to make sure Im nothing like them. I have no problem divulging that to someone Im dating either. I dont see it as a red flag.

  • http://deleted Jason

    Ted,

    But that is the easy part man. If she is all happy to be with you, then you are probably the best guy she’s been with. But, what about five years from now? 10? Relationships are a bit like cars. They are great when they are new: they smell good, they are tight in the turns, and responsive. Over time, parts wear out, smell goes away, and now the repair bills start coming. Lots of people tend to dump their cars and get a new one when this happens, because new is always exciting. But, I prefer to stick with my cars as long as I can. I like the comfort I’ve built over the years driving it, and at least I know what problems it has, and what problems have already been fixed.

    So being the best man she has ever had may be easy in the now, but what about in the future?

    That was one of the funnier posts I’ve read in a while. It made me picture my gf 10 years from now as a busted up Buick with leaky oil and a slipping transmission.

    FTR, I don’t think it should ever get toooooo comfortable, with both parties letting themselves go and slipping into routine. A relationship is a social contract, and men as well as women should try to honor that contract by maintaining their initial roles and traits to the best of their abilities in the future. Double standards exist, but I don’t think this is one of them.

    But since I haven’t been at that point, this is all speculation for now. I’ll see if my attitude changes if I ever reach the 10 year mark with someone.

  • http://deleted Jason

    Also, I was reading through Rollo’s blog for the first time yesterday, and a relationship game post of his really struck me. It essentially said that the best frame for going into a relationship is to assume a really ‘alpha’ character, and let the girl think that her feminine wiles were able to soften you up and tame the lion. This seems to bode best for a future imo.

    With my current realtionship I did this because it naturally seemed like the best tactic. I admit that I played up my ‘alpha’ frame a little bit, but this allowed me to scale back to where I feel comfortable and natural, and to where she thinks that she ‘won’ me. A win-win. In the future though, while it won’t come out as often as it did in the beginning, she knows that at least I have this ‘assholish alpha’ card deep in my back pocket, which keeps the ‘tingle satisfied.

  • J

    I think you’re better off getting to know your partner as well as you can. If there are gaps in her history, taboo subjects, people she tries to avoid, etc.. those should be red flags.

    I would agree.

    I think it is also more important to look at current behavior and values, especially if a person’s recent history differs a lot from his/her distant past.

    This is especially true with widowed or divorced people. A person may have been a faithful spouse and then decide to sleep with anything and everything that moves. I have an older widowed friend who is constantly being dogged by a widower who was faithful to his wife for close to fifty years. However, since then, he has gone through women faster than most men go through underwear. He’s a horrible bet for my friend despite having had a good history for decades. Conversely, many of the married female posters here have been faithful wives despite having had a relationship or two before marriage. I don’t think college hookup history is predictive of anything for those women. Personally, it’s been about a quarter of a century since I have so much as kissed any man other than DH. Were anything to happen to him and I found myself dating again, I’d be very turned off by being asked about events that happened 30 years ago.

  • J

    I am happy to report that I am finally over him. . . We were able to make a clean break, and my heart genuinely feels lighter these days.

    Glad to hear it, Sassy. I had a relationship in my 20s that was on again off again for years. It was wonderful when I finally moved on.

    I had wanted to marry this guy. He never married. Ironically, I run into him from time to time, and he tells me that he regards me as the one who got away. I regard him as a dodged bullet.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com/2012/02/she-feels-so-damn-good.html Ted D

    Lol. I drive a Chrysler. I just can’t picture my SO as a beat up 300 sitting in he garage. :p

    I agree that too much comfort can kill a relationship. My marriage tanked partially because of it in fact. But, I am the type of person that places far more value on comfort and security than fun and excitement. In fact, I very much dislike surprises in general, and although excitement gets my juices flowing, it can also lead to anxiety. So I am doing my best to be more spontaneous with my SO, or more specifically, “appear” to be. In fact, I still plan things well in advance, I just don’t tell her about it. Then, when time comes for the main event, she is surprised and excited, and I feel secure about it because I know the plan. It’s a subtle change from my standard, which is to include her in the plans from the start.

    This is one of the “game” concepts I put to use. It doesn’t change a single thing about me, but to my SO it appears that I am being more spontaneous. Now if she can remember how much I hate surprises…

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “We definitely need a filter for that.”

    Ideally, before the deed is done. That’s the challenge I’ve observed. Once two people who are dating go all the way, it can be assumed they have feelings for one another. Asking about sexual history after the fact could imply doubt or discomfort already. Whereas getting that discussion out of the way before sex would be more like curiosity and “filtering”. The filter used to be: not having sex too soon, getting to know someone better. A lot of heartache could be avoided using the old filter.

    I recall an old stereotype in college that went something like this: young people from strict or traditional upbringing tended to go hog wild once they had a taste of freedom. That’s what was driving promiscuity. I’m not so sure if it’s that simple. Doesn’t coming from a broken home or having lax parenting contribute, too?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      I recall an old stereotype in college that went something like this: young people from strict or traditional upbringing tended to go hog wild once they had a taste of freedom. That’s what was driving promiscuity. I’m not so sure if it’s that simple. Doesn’t coming from a broken home or having lax parenting contribute, too?

      The primary factor is kids moving into coed dorms, reflecting the loss of in loco parentis at college. Research does show that children of divorce are more wary of relationships and therefore more likely to prefer casual sex. I haven’t seen lax parenting blamed, though it certainly makes sense. The mothers of promiscuous girls in high school appear to be in denial, as far as I could tell.

  • J

    Similar deal. I’m the only Mahoney of my generation (out of 12) to get a high school diploma, let alone go on to college

    Interesting. I’m the only person in a generation of over 60 cousins on my dad’s side to go to college. On my mom’s side, it’s all professionals and entrepeneurs.

  • deti

    Interesting discussion about ladies fessing up about their partner counts. I know a little something about this.

    If you’d like to know what can happen when you defraud your husband about your partner count, read this:

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/09/30/hookinguprealities/marcottes-boxers-are-in-a-twist-over-nice-guys%c2%ae/comment-page-3/#comment-63076

    You will lose a lot of trust and autonomy in your marriage. If you’re fortunate, you’ll be given the opportunity to (slowly, VERY slowly) earn it back.

    Charm – “Change, to me, means that you’ve acknowledged something and move on from it. So in this case I think a person should be able to openly talk about past behavior. A lot of people want to sweep it under the rug and that makes me distrust them. If someone came to me and said “Look I slept with a bunch of people in the past for [insert honest reason], Im not proud of it, and decided to change my behavior because of XYZ”, I could respect that. I think it shows maturity through owning your shit.”

    +1. This is a hell of a lot better than hiding it and lying about it.

    The truth comes out. It always does.

    It ALWAYS does.

  • dragnet

    For the record, I’ve noticed that more intelligent and/or more educated girls tend to be sluttier or more promiscuous. Admittedly that’s purely anectodal.

    And I filled out the Vox Day survey…and didn’t realize I was supposed to anonymize myself.

    D’oh!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And I filled out the Vox Day survey…and didn’t realize I was supposed to anonymize myself.

      How intriguing. I’ll be heading over there to check your comment.

  • J

    Of course not, she has links to British newspapers with topless women on the cover.

    LOL. I once took a male blogger to task to task for cherry-picking throught the Daily Mail for “studies.” He defended the credibility of that rag to death.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jason,

    JM,

    I know you are in a relatively new relationship, but it’s been mentioned on here that you had an old one that went south in what I assume is a bad manner? I’m curious as to what happened if you don’t mind sharing, or if you want to link me to previous posts on the subject.

    I have no idea where any of those old posts might be.

    Briefly:
    Boy fell in love with girl.
    Boy got engaged to girl.
    Boy discovered that there were two dozen other boys before him.
    Boy broke engagement with girl.

  • J

    Of course more questions would follow. I’m wondering why you think that would end badly?

    I think knowing too many details of one’s SO’s prior sex life leads to obsessing about things that can’t be changed or no longer matter. And then there’s the question of how the current partner measures up. Was she prettier? Was he better in bed? What did they do together? No good comes of having those questions or answering them.

  • J

    JM-Did you break your engagement because of her number or were there additional factors?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    J

    I think that there’s just this desire on the part of some guys (this wouldn’t apply to someone like Jason, of course, but to others certainly) to know whether the woman they’re with is like them or not. “Is she the type of girl who would’ve ignored me back in the day to go have fun with guys I’ve never had respect for, or is she the type who went through similar struggles and can relate to that experience?”

    I know for me, that was the main issue. I was no longer able to respect my ex when I found out she was the first type.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    J

    The number.

  • Charm

    @Ted D

    Are you the 41 year old male version of me? Lol, we think so a like. I don’t find it odd at all that you try to interview perspective mates. In my perfect world people would come equipped with a detailed history report. Kind of like a used car. I like to be very thorough when considering dating someone. Im the kind of person where I am very self preserving so I value comfort and security first as well. This is not to say I don’t like excitement, but that will have to wait at least until all my important stuff is taken care of first. You know, I need to a stable job, somewhere to live, food to eat, a decent amount of savings before I can buy those pair of shoes that I really want.

    I really have no problem with being very up front about any and everything. I too also think the sex partner/number/history should be out of the way early on. Sure, a person can choose not to answer, but in doing so they’d better not let the door hit them on the way out. Any prospect of a relationship would end right there. Im very uncompromising about things that involve me. But Im also pretty picky about relationships anyway.

    I scan initially for compatibility. Like a damn robot. If we aren’t compatible for a good reason like differences in values, I know I wont be able to deal with it so I wont even consider the relationship. Sometimes I feel like people try to force shit in relationship only for it to fall apart in the end anyway.

    I guess were just two odd little peas in a pod.

  • purplesneakers

    For the record, I’ve noticed that more intelligent and/or more educated girls tend to be sluttier or more promiscuous. Admittedly that’s purely anectodal.

    This is actually my experience too. I think it’s because college environments are all about “sex positivity” and being PC and not judging anyone, which basically condones hooking up. And more intelligent women, if they are more school- or career-oriented, may have the mindset of “I don’t have time for a relationship!” (or “it’s so lame and girly to want a relationship!”) and therefore get into the hookup culture. Whereas girls that may go to community colleges or commute from home to school or work still have their family and co-workers to remind them of what people actually think about hooking up in the real world. I think the closed-off environment of most colleges doesn’t help.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – “I think knowing too many details of one’s SO’s prior sex life leads to obsessing about things that can’t be changed or no longer matter. And then there’s the question of how the current partner measures up. Was she prettier? Was he better in bed? What did they do together? No good comes of having those questions or answering them”

    Ok I get that. But, when I say I want/need to discuss past sexual history, I’m not looking for play by plays, LOL. I want to know how those relationships went. What kind of men did she pair up with? How did she react to them during and after the relationship? What did she learn from each encounter? I know this type of discussion is very intrusive, but if I’m looking to spend the rest of my life with this person, sharing my inner most secrets, let alone my financial future, I don’t think it is asking for too much.

    And, I would say that any woman that is embarrassed or afraid of the consequences needs to do some further self examination and soul searching. You can’t change your past, but you need to accept that other people simply may not understand your journey to where you are today, and that it is fair to allow them the chance to decide that for themselves. I’ve certainly done things I’m not particularly proud of, but I don’t even attempt to hide those facts. To me, that is a sign of learning from your mistakes. That you are not ashamed of them, but instead recognize them for what they are: mistakes that taught you something important.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Jesus Mahoney, I’m curious as to whether or not you and your girl have discussed exact numbers with each other. Would you want to talk about it? Or would you rather it be kept a mystery?

    My husband and I had this talk in the first month, as we were falling in love. I gave him the run-down and the number, and he was okay with it. He also gave me his history. Then we talked about STD testing, and we had both had clean test histories.

    I just can’t see a situation in which my number would come out months down the road and be a shock. I can’t keep a “secret” about myself. I couldn’t even keep my pregnancy to myself until 2nd trimester and had to tell some coworkers.

  • J

    JM #166

    That makes sense to me.

  • Charm

    “Is she the type of girl who would’ve ignored me back in the day to go have fun with guys I’ve never had respect for, or is she the type who went through similar struggles and can relate to that experience?”

    +1……………………………………..million :)

    I think the same about men. It makes a person feel like crap when they realize that a couple of years ago you would have been seen as the bottom of the barrel to a person.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    No. But we’ve talked about past relationships. She knows why I broke things off with my ex and while she doesn’t know details about who I’ve been with since, she knows I had that period over the summer where I just went around picking up girls. Those things she knew before we got together. I know a bit about the relationships she’s had and I’ve heard a couple of stories about weird first dates.

    In retrospect, I shouldn’t have been shocked about my ex. I was just believing what I wanted to believe.

  • Ramble

    For the record, I’ve noticed that more intelligent and/or more educated girls tend to be sluttier or more promiscuous. Admittedly that’s purely anectodal.

    This is actually my experience too. I think it’s because college environments are all about “sex positivity” and being PC and not judging anyone, which basically condones hooking up.

    Dragnet, purple

    Personally, I have found the “smart” girls in the Humanities, Econ, Law and the Liberal Arts to be considerably sluttier than the smart girls in the hard science STEM fields.

    The girls that were aspiring actresses were downright whores (in general, and relatively speaking).

  • Ramble

    “Is she the type of girl who would’ve ignored me back in the day to go have fun with guys I’ve never had respect for, or is she the type who went through similar struggles and can relate to that experience?”

    Jesus (and Charm),
    Yes, exactly. So, for instance, if some girl had racked up, say 4 guys, with those guys being the likes of LeapOfBeta, then, I am guessing most guys (here) would have little problem with that.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    J

    And I agree with you that if you were to suddenly find yourself on the dating scene after a quarter century of marriage and a man began asking about what you were doing with whom 30 years ago, that would be a red flag.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    So, for instance, if some girl had racked up, say 4 guys, with those guys being the likes of LeapOfBeta, then, I am guessing most guys (here) would have little problem with that.

    Right. I mean, if all 4 were casual, then I’d wonder about her character, but basically, right.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Charm – to be completely honest, I’ve met far more women that share my views than men. I’m good with the fact that I am an outlier among outliers because I am not only a male that is not into casual sex, but that I value things in my relationships that are not typically “male” oriented, like putting a high value on the emotional content of my sexuality.

    My issue was: once upon a time I actually believed that my outlier status made me more valuable as a LTR partner. That because I valued intimacy and emotional substance that I was a better choice for any women to invest in. The harshest truth of the red pill for me was that none of it mattered one bit. And, in a way, it made me feel like the years of struggling with keeping on the “straight and narrow” were in fact completely pointless.

    Now I realize that I didn’t do it for my SO, or anyone other than myself. Because, at the end of the day, I want to be the person that can look at themselves in the mirror and be proud of who I am, and how I got to be the person I am. My goal now is to try and understand the path other people have taken to get to the same place. My SO is a good woman; truthful, honest, loyal, and honorable. But, she didn’t take nearly the same path I did to get there, and initially that was something I had difficulty with. But, we have vastly different experiences in our early lives, and slowly I am beginning to see that many of her early choices were a direct result of the environment she came from. And, I am beginning to see how those choices, although I disagree with many, brought her to me in the state she currently is. As much as I may hate some of the things she did, she would in fact NOT be the person she is today if she hadn’t done them. Its a shitty thing to learn, and I probably should have learned it 20 years ago, but the fact that I’ve limited my romantic experiences to very few woman means I’ve never been with a person with such a different history. And, I truly didn’t realize that her sexual past would be such a big deal to me, until it was. But, I also met her before the red pill, and it was VERY difficult to ingest and internalize the messages while trying to determine if I’d made a huge mistake being with her.

    I can’t say I’m out of the woods, but I am past the doubt in our relationship. She has indeed learned and grown a great deal from the person she was in her late teens/early 20’s. I can clearly see it, and her family and friends have all but said so directly. (well, one old friend of hers actually DID say it directly. LOL) I’m still struggling with simply accepting how she could have ever been in that mental state at all. It amazes me that someone so awesome could have ever felt badly about herself. Even at the worst places in my life, I have never felt so low that self destructive behavior seemed like an improvement. But, I was never mentally, physically, or sexually abused as a child either.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    In my opinion, best thing I did in college was find a niche/subculture that had nothing to do with partying and hooking up. I was playing MMORPGs and video games a lot. My social scene was basically entirely outside of the student body.

    I actually didn’t know any girl who hooked up a lot at my college. None of the girls in the dorm I lived in first had gained a reputation, and then I lived in a singles all-female dorm in the sorority quarters, which was again very quiet. I think that helped, too.

    The girls I befriended were nerdy types who also didn’t dress up or wear makeup. We were basically invisible compared to the hot girls on campus. Men talk about the apex fallacy, but it applies to themselves. Young college guys don’t give a second look to girls that aren’t nearly as hot as their peers (the 5’s).

  • J

    I want to know how those relationships went. .. I don’t think it is asking for too much.

    I think a lot of that sort of discussion comes up naturally. People like to talk about past hurts and relationships that affected them profoundly. I would say that, although numbers were not exchanged, DH and I know the important highlights of each other’s histories.

    you need to accept that other people simply may not understand your journey to where you are today, and that it is fair to allow them the chance to decide that for themselves.

    I’m OK with that, but I would regard too many questions, or questions of a certain nature as indicative that a relationship was not worth pursuing. I’m not sure how to explain where I’d draw the line, but there is a difference between the normal assessing of relationship fitness and crazy, obsessive questions. If I felt I was on the receiving end of the latter, I’d run in the other direction.

    An example: “Have you ever cheated on your former spouse?” is a good question. It is highly pertinent to current character. “Did you get drunk and laid in 1979?” seems ridiculous at this point in my life. I wouldn’t want to judge or be judged by a random event that happened over 30 years ago. It’s not a question I would ask a guy, and I would find it an offensive question if asked of me. It would also make me wary, mostly because it indicates a lack of ability to move on from the past. Can a guy who’s obsessed with what might have happened 30 years ago let go of an arguement he had last week, or will he constantly be hitting you over the head with things he can’t forgive?

  • Charm

    @Ramble

    Yes, exactly. But I don’t think a lot of these guys that are learning game are thinking that far into the future. Right now, women like me who don’t put out early, or go to bars and get piss ass drunk and hook up are pretty much put on the back burner. But I find it funny that these guys will admit that while they just looooove sluts, they would never marry one.

    Its like a guy saying to me: “Look, you’re definitely the kind of girl I want to marry, but right now, I want to go have my fun with all those promiscuous girls. Can you wait 5 years for me to get it out of my system?”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But I don’t think a lot of these guys that are learning game are thinking that far into the future. Right now, women like me who don’t put out early, or go to bars and get piss ass drunk and hook up are pretty much put on the back burner. But I find it funny that these guys will admit that while they just looooove sluts, they would never marry one.

      It’s very, very common for girls to get not-pumped but still dumped, and it happens plenty with beta guys.

      Give me chastity and continence, but not yet.

  • Charm

    are NOT thinking that far into the future*

  • Escoffier

    I’ve had the conversation but more interesting is the one significant time that I did not have the conversation. She was older (3 yrs or so as I recall), very beautiful, had lived in France, and basically I just didn’t want to know. Because I am sure that had I known I would not have liked the answer. The whole relationship was terribly volatile for a number of reasons. The gamester point that if a girl has an alpha in her past she will never be happy with a beta I think applies to this one though I can’t be sure.

    I remember she brought the general subject up once and said that she had experience but had not been “promiscuous” (her words) but didn’t define what that word meant to her. I did not ask. I wish I remember more about that conversation, what was said, how it started, etc.

    Another funny thing that validates the game perspective. A few years after we broke up she got back in touch with me (she was 29 at the time) and it’s clear in hindsight that she was trying to see if she could re-start the relationship and make it permanent. She alluded to having had another (younger) BF in the interim but that didn’t work out. At that point I was just starting to date She Who Would Become My Wife. I had been the dumper and as attracted to this old flame as I was, I knew it was a suicidal move to get back together with her. So I didn’t. We stayed in (very) intermittent email contact after that but after I informed her of my wedding, I never heard from her again.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “Look, you’re definitely the kind of girl I want to marry, but right now, I want to go have my fun with all those promiscuous girls. Can you wait 5 years for me to get it out of my system?”

    Bingo. And this is probably the feeling that every boy gets when a woman tells him that the girls will learn or that he’ll be the boy they want to marry someday.

  • J

    Men talk about the apex fallacy, but it applies to themselves. Young college guys don’t give a second look to girls that aren’t nearly as hot as their peers (the 5′s).

    Cosigned. It’s struck me from the first time I read a manosphere blog that a lot of male misery could be solved if guys lowered their physical standards a bit. I made the mistake of mentioning at CH that plain women are invisible to most men and was told that I was talking nonsense. A guy simply is unable to lower his standards because, if he can’t get an erection, the game is over. I can empathize. However, I imagine that there’s some hyperbole in there too. At any rate, I’d hate to be a male 4 who can only get hard for a female 8 or better. That’s gotta be lonely.

  • Charm

    Oh fuck, it was right the first time. Lol

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Oh fuck, it was right the first time. Lol

    It’s a good thing you don’t smoke pot… You’d be lost beyond hope. lol

  • Ramble

    But I find it funny that these guys will admit that while they just looooove sluts, they would never marry one.

    Its like a guy saying to me: “Look, you’re definitely the kind of girl I want to marry, but right now, I want to go have my fun with all those promiscuous girls. Can you wait 5 years for me to get it out of my system?”

    Charm, what is funny about that?

    If you don’t want to marry a guy who banged a slut or two, then, fine. Perfectly understandable.

    But, he can not afford a family at 19 and his fertility will not be declining at 26, so, he should, hopefully, be expected to live a “youthful” life.

    That doesn’t mean he should waste away in “The House of the Rising Sun”, but a little fun should be expected.

    Also, I am guessing that you do not want a man that feels like he missed out and now, as he is married to you, regrets it.

    I am not saying that guys should be seeking out sluts. Guys, and girls, should live their lives as they see fit.

  • Ramble

    It’s very, very common for girls to get not-pumped but still dumped, and it happens plenty with beta guys.

    They have heard, and they can see, that there is plenty of fish in the sea, but have gotten to taste so little of it. So, instead of putting a (proverbial promise) ring on it, they go hunting.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      They have heard, and they can see, that there is plenty of fish in the sea, but have gotten to taste so little of it. So, instead of putting a (proverbial promise) ring on it, they go hunting.

      Yes, and I think it makes sense. I am not blaming guys – the incentives drive beta behaviors too.

  • Charm

    @Ted

    See thats what makes me sad about the whole thing. I have a tendency to project how I see the world and interact with it onto other people. Im very conscious and aware of the world around me. Im very aware of the reasons I engage in certain behaviors and not others, or why I choose to do certain things. I am very much into holding myself to a standard, and when I realize other people don’t do the same/haven’t much thought about it–it kind of disappoints me.

    I have a hard time of taking people as the are when its very different than I naturally am. Its because I can’t fathom having just not having thought about it. When people say “I don’t know, I haven’t really thought about it. I just did it.” I sort of lose faith in people. Its like, is that it? Really? You didn’t think about it? As you can see Im not very accepting. I try to be but it really grates on me. I still haven’t accepted that a lot of people just don’t think like I do. Im still searching for someone who understands.

    @Jesus

    People say that shit because they don’t know what it feels like to have someone tell you “its okay, you’ll be number 2 to those guys”. This is why I always root for the underdog. I want them to get in shape, gain self confidence, get established in their career and reach a very high point in their lives THEN ignore the hell out of the women that wouldn’t have paid them any mind when they were “losers”.

    Betas boys should ignore the hell out of those ex-hot party girls once they age off the alphas radar and marry and nice beta girl that got ignored in her early 20s as well.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    For the record, I have no problem with this kind of “deception.” It’s just sensible given the history of the sexual double standard and feminism’s attempt to eradicate it. It may be unfortunate for women, but your approach is probably the best way to get to the truth, and I think all men deserve that.

    I don’t consider it a deception is mostly creating an atmosphere for the truth like a psychologist I mean if the truth is “I actually just dated a couple of guys” the relationship will continue going the same way. Also finding out a deal breaker is not the same as judging. You can decide that person is lovely just not for you…I might be hamsterizing this though :p

    What can I say, my own experience and observations don’t always square with the red pill stuff, at least not to the same degree. As you say, most of the young men I know in relationships are beta guys, and I’ve seen many young women with broken hearts over them. The mythical alpha is just that.

    Alpha is like a joker card you can use it for everytime a woman has strong feelings for a man. The guy could objectevely by plain, common, nerdy or whatever but if she couldn’t get over him fast he was HER Alpha so that continues the concept. There is not a scientific measurable definition of Alpha for people into Game so anything works, YMMV.

    Its like a guy saying to me: “Look, you’re definitely the kind of girl I want to marry, but right now, I want to go have my fun with all those promiscuous girls. Can you wait 5 years for me to get it out of my system?”

    Cosign this.
    “Can you wait and hope I don’t get a horrible STD disease a kid or two and a couple of crazy exes that will make our life miserable and of course don’t fall in love with anyone in the interim while I have all the sex I can master in the shortest period of time with women that are not at all like you?”
    Stupid the woman that falls for this crap, though.

  • Sassy6519

    Is she the type of girl who would’ve ignored me back in the day to go have fun with guys I’ve never had respect for, or is she the type who went through similar struggles and can relate to that experience?”

    Jesus (and Charm),
    Yes, exactly. So, for instance, if some girl had racked up, say 4 guys, with those guys being the likes of LeapOfBeta, then, I am guessing most guys (here) would have little problem with that.

    Hm. I guess this ties into the idea of men