New Gawker personality Anonymous Therapist is male, a father, and a therapist of many years who primarily treats teens and couples. He responds to questions about his practice, sharing the insights he’s gleaned and also some pretty outrageous stories. I was especially intrigued by his views on sexual promiscuity. (H/T: Stuart Schneiderman)
Gawker: Do you find that females who “experiment” are prone to self-destruction?
Anonymous Therapist: A resounding yes. Forget about the spoon-fed knowledge that promiscuity and experimentation lead to a higher risk of sexual assault, STDs, and unplanned children. Women that experiment—both heterosexually and homosexually—have, in my experience, faced higher levels of guilt and a lack of identity as their lives begin to settle down. Understand that this is a chicken-or-egg scenario, because sexual promiscuity in women in is one of the three major symptoms of internal anger and self-hatred, along with substance abuse and self-mutilation.
SW: Anonymous Therapist doesn’t specify a particular number of partners, but zeroes in on the motives for having casual sex as indicative of poor mental health. Here correlation, with or without causation, suggests that slutty behavior is a package deal, born of a desire to harm or punish oneself.
Gawker: That seems harsh. How so?
AT: I had a female patient once. She was very attractive, had three kids and was married to a prominent figure around town. She admitted to me that as a teen, she was extremely sexually active due to some feelings of unattractiveness and abandonment. Once she had kids, she felt guilty that her kids would one day—and I’m quoting here—”realize that they were birthed from a ‘whore,’” and that there was no special physical connection between her and her husband because he was like, the 70th man she’d been with. She felt unworthy of her social prominence because no one knew who she truly was. Since she could not separate from her past and never truly dealt with the core issues of her inadequacies, she began to self-destruct with substances, a spending addiction, and oftentimes engaging in communications that would jeopardize her husband’s career.
- Self-destruction stems from guilt or a sense of unworthiness, and if you are not punished by someone else then, in your mind, you must punish yourself.
- Experimentation is also socially driven: It is now commendable in our society to be promiscuous.
- For both men and women, any type of promiscuity or experimentation, what you feel at the time is not always how you will feel about it later.
In my opinion, any type of promiscuity or “phase” is fulfilling some type of need or emptiness inside that person at that specific time. Later on, that need may be fulfilled, but the behavior has occurred and the person may not be able to intellectualize the rationale or forgive themselves for fulfilling that need in that venue.
SW: Interestingly, AT begins by speaking about female promiscuity, but ends by generalizing that promiscuous behavior for both sexes comes from a place of inadequacy rather than emotional health.
What AT doesn’t address is the role of peer pressure, culture, and pluralistic ignorance on college campuses. Recently the Harvard Crimson interviewed Lisa Wade, Ph.D., a Sociology professor at Occidental College who studies the role of sex, sexuality, and gender in society. Wade dishes out a lot of feminist blather about “teh patriarchy” but at least she’s honest about what’s going on in hookup culture:
Crimson: What role do you think that television and the media’s very casual attitude toward sex has played in shaping society’s views on sex?
LW: It certainly contributes to the pluralistic ignorance and the idea that college is going to be constant sex with attractive people and that that’s how you have fun in college. We get the idea that someone who is cool and interesting and exciting is someone who is doing it and doing it with whoever, whenever, however…. The media seems to be saying that students who don’t participate are just irrelevant and off the social map altogether, and that’s a pretty harsh punishment to someone who objects to what’s going on or wishes it were different.
…What the sexual revolution of the 1960s and 1970s gave us is the opportunity to say “yes” to sex. But what it didn’t give us was the opportunity to say “no.” So students feel comfortable saying “yes” to sex, but they also feel like it’s increasingly difficult to say “no.” They feel like they should lose their virginity and have casual sex, and they feel bad about wanting to say “no.”
…When students arrive on campus their first year, they are very excited about what they think is going to be lots and lots of sex and lots and lots of fun. They often start getting disappointed right away and find themselves getting disappointed with so little pleasure and feelings of empowerment. But they don’t feel like they can change the way it is. The majority of students hook up now and then, but they have mixed feelings about what’s going on—they’re excited about the opportunity to be sexual but they’re also frustrated. Over the four years of college, students spend less and less time hooking up.
Clearly, there’s more going on here than self-hatred, though it seems reasonable to assume that the disappointment and frustration students feel after hooking up might create or exacerbate those feelings. One young woman told me that when she got very depressed about the hookup scene and her role in it at her small, private college she went to see a school counselor, who reported that most of the requests for counseling related directly to the hookup scene and kids’ struggles to find their place within it or outside it.
There was one other remark from Anonymous Therapist that I know will interest you:
Gawker: So do you think couples should reveal how many people they’ve had sex with in order to alleviate guilt?
Absolutely not! Once you know that number, you begin to dwell on it and then the mind begins to go places it shouldn’t go and then start to rationalize and over-think the numbers—i.e., how many were one-night stands? How often were feelings shared? Does that make it better or worse? And so on. It’s just a useless piece of information that tends to eventually, more often than not, impact the relationship either on a conscious or subconscious level. So keep it to yourself.
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@Passerby
I haven’t met too many INTPs in real life by they seem to be very deep and theoretical but also a bit lazy and disorganized and as we have determined from J very accepting of other peoples short comings.
All our positive energy goes with you!
JM
That’s my point. But if you don’t care about the people you’re fucking or they don’t care about you, then it kind of IS called making love for nothing.
_____________
dont forget @ 30% of relationships start out with sex very early on. It started out as casual and turned out to be more. Im living proof it can happen. I know it is not everyones cup of tea. Actually I was not looking for love when we met. It just happened.
@Cooper
Your impressions are definitely validated by others, meaning men. And some women too obviously – men don’t get to be manwhores if women reject them for promiscuity. But I maintain that many women are turned off by that. I also think it depends on where you draw the number – that may be different for individual women. 200? Gross. 100? Ew. 25? I can deal.
What you’re really asking, I think, is will a woman be turned off if the number is 0? Or 2? I would say that depends on the age of the guy and the woman in question. For a whole host of reasons, that low number guy is going to want to go for a low number woman, and she is not going to be turned off by it – she will appreciate it.
@ Charm
I’m 5’6″. I don’t think I got the nickname because of my height. I think it was based more on my physical appearance and aptitude for archery. I absolutely loved working with a long bow and was quite good. I beat most of the people in my archery class on target drills and competitions.
A stacked woman wielding a bow and arrow obviously did something for the guys I knew back then.
You sound like a real treat to be around.
From my perspective, the more sexual partners a person has had the more likely they are to:
1. get bored with their current one, especially in a marriage
2. compare their current lover to the past ones.
You generally can’t miss what you’ve never had. This is what I think about it. I think a lot of really high count guys in think that they are going to just be happy with that one person for the next 3 decades, but I don’t think its that simple. If sex starts to slow down, bodies start to change, your wife is aging, I think you are more likely to want to go back to what you were doing before you were committed. If you’ve fucked 50 other women you know what you’re missing. Men with lower counts don’t really know what they missed so they seem like they’d me much happier with what they have. Not to say that they don’t think about sex with other women though.
Studying this a little more, the preponderance of women here who claim to be Ts rather than Fs is a little surprising (and the number who claim to NTs even more surprising). If they are correct, then it would seem to me that many of the women here are outliers in relation to the general female population. To the extent they are having trouble staying in relationships, I would guess that males tend to be more instinctively protective of (and perhaps more likely to bond to) SF types, even though many things that go along with that personality type will ultimately frustrate the hell out of a lot of guys. Anyway, just thinking out loud here. I could be full of it.
Sassy,
I think you have an abnormally high self of self-worth. I’m not saying this is necessarily bad, but… idk, I’ve known extremely beautiful women who don’t value their SMV so highly.
I mean, you look cute and all–I’m not trying to insult–but Amazonian Alpha–really? This is how Roissy describes her: “the Amazonian Alpha inspires, in those who fall in love with her, dreams of glory, of being raised above all the ordinary people who mill around on the face of the earth.”
I mean, it’s cool to think you’re a great catch and all, but…
@ Passer_By
That sounds about right to me.
Tom – ” I really do not see how love can have degrees of depth. I love with all my heart. That is all I can say.”
And that is your perception. I can easily see varying degrees of love. I certainly don’t love my buddy the same way I love my SO, or the same way I love my children. Now, we can argue that as long as she loves me with all she has, that I should be content with that. I would counter that my concern is perhaps “all she has” isn’t nearly what it should be due to her past actions. And, if the difference between all I have, and all she has is too great, then I suspect the relationship would be unbalanced, and it would probably lead to trouble. Anyone that has a casual attitude towards sex doesn’t value sex the same way I do. So as long as we have those different values, we will never see our sexual relationship the same way. The logical conclusion of that to me is: she doesn’t feel as deeply about our sexual relationship as I do.
Lets try a ridiculously simple example. On ebay someone is selling a trinket that you and I both want. We both bid, and at some point both of us will stop bidding higher because we don’t feel like the trinket is worth the amount. You may stop bidding way before I do, because you see less value in the object than I do. But, does that really change the object at all? Nope. It is simply how we perceive the object that changes the outcome.
To me, people that can and do participate in and enjoy casual sex simply have a lower value on sexual intimacy. They are selling low. I am holding out for a better offer, because to me, it is worth too much to sell cheaply. Because of that, people with promiscuous pasts would be selling me a cheaper version of the product I am looking for, and I’m not interested in cheap trinkets.
@Jason
Sarcasm?
Either way, Im actually a pretty good person. But I explicity state that I don’t like surprises. Its one of my boundaries I don’t like being crossed, so if someone crosses it once it has been established this is a sign of disrespect, no?
I’ll get mad. I let people know a head of time Ill get mad. So its not like its coming out of no where. And lets suggest a stranger surprised me…I get even more mad. If you don’t know someone well enough you shouldnt be pulling that kind of crap with them. But thats just common courtesy.
@Susan
Yeah, your getting what I’m really asking.
What about a woman with high-numbers? Is that of more concern?
I would assume so.
@Passer_by
Correct. SF women are 75% of the female population if not more. So they set the rule for female behavior. ESFJ and ISFJ women are the “ideal” house wife and motherly types while ESFP women tend to be the run of the mill party girls. All in all SF women are more likely to be promiscuous, because they make up most of the population especially ESF women. But in general they usually aren’t that logical and make emotionally rash decisions causing men to be very protective of them even if they are being absolutely ridiculous.
@Sassy
Archery? Swweeeeet. I’ve always wanted to do that. It sound awesome!
Charm, when I was in my teens I was a lot more like you in attitude. I still got boyfriends, but they were the types who liked my masculine attitude. When I put out masculine energy, I attracted submissive men who liked my dominance.
People are now probably thinking, Hope used to be like that? Yes, I was always speaking my mind, bossy, and confrontatinal. My online nickname was not Hope, but BritaBitch and MissAnnThrope. I went around challenging everyone and everything. I thought that was me being “true to myself.”
But here’s the thing. We are not born finished products, but are always changing. I was not attracted to the “weak” men that my dominant energy got me. When I consciously chose to be more submissive and feminine, I attracted much more dominant and masculine men, who were very sexy and internally strong.
When I began to focus on being feminine as the main aspect of my personality, I felt more “congruent” and quite a bit more attractive. My self-esteem became healthier, and I was more quietly self-assured. In my opinion, the change has been nothing but good. I no longer had anything to “prove.” I simply AM good, because I don’t need to participate in the masculine contests. I stopped having conflicts, stopped being angry, and everything feels harmonious and wonderful.
Just a sample of one, of course.
My question is, how can a woman of high SMV convince a man that she really likes him, despite the fact that she seems harder to lock down by most men?
Humility? You spend so much time trumpeting up your own awesomeness here, that I wouldn’t be surprised it gushes over into your real-life interactions.
Practically every woman here all-but salivate over men with high numbers that post, once revealed.
Who exactly?
@Hope
Oh yea, Im sure Ill quiet down in the next few years. I already feel the change happening. But at the time you probably couldn’t be told otherwise, no? Im the same way. I know I change. I was a lot more brutish a few years ago. But Ive calmed a bit. That being said it has to happen at its own pace. Rushing it to get a date seems stupid to me. Its a journey that I have to take on my own. I know I will get there, but from the NT girls that I’ve talked to, who are much older than me, a big part of the intimidation factor never wears off. I just stopped trying to hide it. If people don’t like me, they don’t have to. I’ve never been one that wanted to be accepted by the masses.
@Sassy
Modesty is a virtue and all that nonsense but its typically a requirement for relationships.
@charm
“But in general they usually aren’t that logical and make emotionally rash decisions causing men to be very protective of them even if they are being absolutely ridiculous.”
You mean like blowing their top and storming out if someone surprises them?
(just kidding – well, sort of).
@ Jesus Mahoney
Haha, well, I never said the description fit me to a T, but it does match up with a few of my experiences.
I wouldn’t say that I value my SMV too much. I’m just hyper-aware of it. I wouldn’t care about it so much if my value wasn’t brought up ad nausea by the men and women I have come in contact with. Also, since it appears that my SMV will tank once I reach 30, I might as well use the cards I have been dealt to the best of my ability now. There seems to be the idea that pretty women have the easiest times in today’s SMP, but no one ever really speaks of the disadvantages (aside from myself, Susan, and a few other commenters here). At some point, it becomes a liability, just as intelligence seems to be for women as well.
Perhaps. Maybe I should take a video camera with me on my next date to see what I do.
@sassy
Showing a little vulnerability and neediness (without being a stage 5 clinger or anything) could probably go a long way.
@Cooper
Definitely. The sexual double standard really is rooted in biology. It makes sense for men to be more wary of prior sexual experience. However, in this era of STD transmission rates, casual sex, etc. I believe there can be what I call a boomerang effect. A guy can be so successful in getting sex with a lot of women that it’s a red flag.
Sassy,
Yea, I totally believe that there are disadvantages to being a female 9 or 10… But do you think that you’re a 9 or a 10?
Susan, ohhh yeah. STDs are nasty business. A low count girl can get with a high count guy and contract something that renders her infertile, and there goes that. Genital herpes, for example, will ruin a girl’s SMV even if she’s only been with a few guys.
Ted
yes that is my perception. I loved an experienced woman and the inexperienced the same.
Ted exactly what is it about a woman who has had some casual sex (not talking super slut here)that bothers you? Is it someone else may have enjoyed her sexually? is it she may have enjoyed him sexually? why is her value perceived to be less by you and how does it bother you?
Im absolutely not saying you dont have the right to feel as you do, you do. Just trying to understand what it is about noncommittal sex that is such a deal breaker.
Before you respond I will share my feelings……….I think sex is a VERY common activity here on planet earth. Something like 200 million acts of sex are taking place right now as I type this. Sex is beautiful, fun and a great way to bond with a spouse/relationship mate. I also feel sex needs to stay exclusive while in a relationship. As for casual sex, I think if a person is discriminating, not impulsive, some casual sex can not only be physically gratifying, but in some cases, for some people, emotionally fulfilling. I agree with you, the sttitude is important, but we may differ on what the criteria might be. Thats ok.
Susan, forgive me if this has already been discussed in the comments field, I couldn’t find it.
What is your take on men who tolerate or even prefer promiscuous women? If very promiscuous women are self-destructive in some way (which I do support), what does that make the men who want them? I’m talking about attractive women here, not those who can only have men with no other options.
I have a good friend who’s had sex with a lot of guys (some only oral, she thinks that makes a difference; I don’t) and she says her boyfriend actually ‘likes it’ (he knows her number). I have heard a couple of other guys say this too, that they actually like promiscuous women. I know one reason is that young guys sometimes assume (mistakenly) that girls with a high partner count are more sexual or experimental than others. As for the rest, I really don’t know why.
Some girls are ‘openly’ slutty, and many are at least not very discreet. If guys are drawn to girls with this kind of past, an obvious party girl, what does that make them? I’ve seen guys like these whom are attractive and educated, not dumb party boys. Attracted to self-destructive girls – just destructive? Or ‘tolerant’?
@Passer_By
Lol. I actually wouldn’t blow my top and go into a fit of rage. Its quite the opposite. Id stand there. Stare and everyone unamused and turn around and and walk away. I dont go into fits of rage. They are very very rare and are usually justified.. But generally I dont have a problem with people crossing boundaries with me, because people know that when I ask them not to do something that I mean it.
And lets say a person likes surprises, then by all means you should do it for them, but someone doesn’t like it then doing so is generally so you can pat your own self on the back for being so awesome and “thoughful”. If you going to do something special for me, appeal to what I define as special, not how you define it.
See thats the thing most men don’t get about NT women. We do NOT need you. Because of that, if were in a relationship with you it means we want you.
Exactly. I can take care of myself, but I still love male company.
I would think that men would prefer that.
Charm, well people tried to tell me to be less bitchy, and I sort of listened… maybe. It’s been so long, and I’m getting forgetful in my old age.
I’m a pretty logical person, too, and have a bit of a masculine brain. So I like doing things that result in positive changes. If A, then B. If I exercise, then I feel healthier. The girl game thing might be related to that.
Charm
1. get bored with their current one, especially in a marriage
2. compare their current lover to the past ones.
You generally can’t miss what you’ve never had
______________
Ive been confided in several times by both male and female friends who often wondered what they are missing, or missed by saving themselves. It really became an issue with some. They often wondered what it would be like to have sex with someone other than their spouse. I wouldnt be surprised if a couple of them found out.
@Charm
I was just flickin’ your ear a little bit – not fond of surprise parties myself. Other surprises might be nice – like, say, if my wife surprised me by bringing home a hot friend for 3-way. (Ok, I kid, again – well, sort of).
Interesting list, Ted. My DH is an INTJ and hates all those things. As an INTP, I’d agree with all of those points as well.
@Marie
As them if they’d consider them for marriage and to be the mother of their future children and you’ll get your real answer. I wouldn’t go based off of what any young people are doing. Most young people are just living in the present. And a lot of guys admit to liking promiscuous girls….for short term relationships. Now, if those girls have all been married a while, I could understand your story.
Jason – i am exactly like Charm in regards to surprises. It isnt a choice, it is simply my natural reaction when surprised to get angry and hit things. It isnt fun at all, and since most women love surprises it has been a constant thorn.in my side my entire life.
I can certainly be fun, but I have to be somewhere i feel safe with people I trust. For the most part, people generally think im too serious most of the time. My SO is still amazed to this day how much time I spend simply thinking about how things can go bad and what I can do to fix it if they do. When im driving i constantly look for threats around me and even go so far as to position my car in multilane traffic intentionally where i have he most evasive room to move. I spend time pondering what I would do if an EMP were detonated over Pittsburgh. And, I do indeed have a “zombie plan”.
To me, life is serious business. Happiness is not a goal, but a welcome side effect of doing the right thing. If happiness doesnt come, it doesn’t stop me from continuing to do what I must. Expect the worst, hope for the best.
@Passer_by
Yea, I could see you getting so angry and chastising her as you grabbed both of their hand and let them to the bed room and undressed.
Ted,
But… I mean, you understand that zombies aren’t real, right?
@Ted
Im actually really good at planning and surprising the hell out of other people through elaborate parties, but only if its something that I know for a fact that they would like. I really enjoy it too. Not the fact that it is a surprise, but because I know that going through all that would mean a lot to the person.
Marie
What is your take on men who tolerate or even prefer promiscuous women? If very promiscuous women are self-destructive in some way (which I do support), what does that make the men who want them? I’m talking about attractive women here, not those who can only have men with no other options.
_______________
I have no problems with women who have had casual sex. However I am not attracted to a “VERY” promiscuous woman. I think there could be issues there that were present before she statred having sex. I think very means having @ 3 or more guys a month for an extended period of time.
I dont think casual sex = low self esteam, but when it is way over done, it may.
You are right that a promiscuous woman doesnt necessarily have a higher libido or are more experimental, or are better in bed. Typically they dont have sexual hangups, which some guys find attractive. Obviously there are exceptions.
My INTP stressors
■Incompetency in oneself
■The incompetence of others
■Small talk
■Being pressured to make decisions
■Having to make subjective decisions
■A lack of knowledge or pertinent information
■Dishonesty in others
■Social gatherings
■Implementation of ideas
■Routine
■Redundancy
■Groupwork
Seems pretty accurate to me, although I would eliminate “Implementation of ideas”. I often enjoy that and get a good feeling of accomplishment, even if sometimes I overthink it before hand.
One unfortunate outcome of these stressors is so-called “investment paralysis”, where in nothing really gets decided regarding investments to be made because I can’t possibly have all the pertinant information to my satisfaction. It’s something I have to really guard against.
I’m not sure I have a real problem with redundancy, unless they are referring to communication (in which case it drives me crazy).
Jesus said
“But… I mean, you understand that zombies aren’t real, right?”
Strange.. wasn’t your namesake one? Took him 3 days, but he came back.
I have a zombie plan. I had too much training during my incel days to instinctively shoot things in the forehead so im covered. Backup plan.. just jog around them, they’re slow.
esteam: Frustrated heat that emanates from the top of your head in front of the computer when someone on a blog misspells even the most basic words.
Studying this a little more, the preponderance of women here who claim to be Ts rather than Fs is a little surprising (and the number who claim to NTs even more surprising).
I think the mere act of commenting on a ‘sphere-related blog self-selects for NTs/nerd girls.
To the extent they are having trouble staying in relationships, I would guess that males tend to be more instinctively protective of (and perhaps more likely to bond to) SF types, even though many things that go along with that personality type will ultimately frustrate the hell out of a lot of guys.
Which really weirds me out because I would think NTs would be great company, low maintainance GFs for most guys. I was pretty hot looking back in my single days, but surprisingly less popular than one might imagine, largely because of my NT personality I think. OTOH, men who like me, really like me–even now.
Anyway, just thinking out loud here. I could be full of it.
No, I’m intrigued by what you said.
Zombie plan: shotgun + four wheeler + down with the sickness on uber loud
Am I the only one here not prepared for an attack of the living dead?
@Charm
I haven’t met too many INTPs in real life by they seem to be very deep and theoretical but also a bit lazy and disorganized
Yeah, I am that too. So is my INTP older son. He is so brilliant but lazy and scatter-brained. My younger son is an INTJ like DH. He’s not as bright, but when he decides to “go for it,” nothing stands in his way.
and as we have determined from J very accepting of other peoples short comings.
Yeah, but it’s more like resignation than approval. People are a-holes sometimes. What can you do?
@lokland
Can I ride shotgun?
I’ll be screaming like the beginning of that song
“Ooh ah ah ah ah”
*head bobbing*
esteam: Frustrated heat that emanates from the top of your head in front of the computer when someone on a blog misspells even the most basic words.
___________sometymes my fingeers fly faster than my mynd
@Passer By
With the exception of social gatherings, which I enjoy about half the time, all that stuff drives me insane. Also, I can work in pairs; groups are too much for me.
I don’t doubt it.
JM,
as requested- I’m afraid i did this in 15 s flat- sorry if they are not the best i could have found
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/350717?uid=3738032&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=47698763798557
http://www.aahperd.org/aahe/publications/iejhe/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&pageid=39179
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CIkBEBYwBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.springerlink.com%2Findex%2FT777513504557W67.pdf&ei=BkdiT_yoB8na0QWFqcS8CA&usg=AFQjCNHKjNLHRJNK0ulNdghkgNvwhdSGFw
This is very true. And yes, a lot of men might not fancy me their type and might not like me, but the ones that do REALLY do.
Im very low maintenance as well, which I thought was a perk. And it is to NT men.
Re INTPs
Yes, they tend to be the brightest of the NTs but ENTJs generally are the most successful (monetarily) since they are organized and go getters and the world generally rewards extroversion over introversion. I know INTJ and INTPs tend to criticize the ENTJ type a lot but the reality is that the traits of the ENTJ are very useful. INTJs a good too except they are more risk adverse and INTPs are very doubtful which is why ENTJ tend to fair much better in fields like business. They use their intuition to make risky bets and then make huge gains.
J – “Exactly. I can take care of myself, but I still love male company.
I would think that men would prefer that.”
As odd as it sounds considering how much I dislike dependent people in general, I actually like to feel like my SO “needs” me to some extent. I imagine it is some type of validation for me, that it gives me a purpose to be with her, or more specifically, it gives her a purpose to stay with me.
I know men that are the complete opposite. The last thing they want is someone “needing” them. In my experience, these are the types of men that really dislike being tied down in general. I prefer to be in a LTR, as it gives me a sense of peace and purpose similar to having children. I don’t derive much if any enjoyment from my “career”, and frankly for me work is simply a means to support my family. It is my personal life I derive my meaning from, and because of that I like to feel that I am doing something positive for them.
That being said, my SO needing me can be as simple as relying on me for emotional support, a shoulder to cry on, a second opinion, hell just handing me a jar she can’t open works for me. I’m not looking for a stage 5 clinger, but I’d like to think that if I were to die tomorrow, she wouldn’t simply continue to “take care of herself” the way she did yesterday.
Tom – I wish I could easily put this into words, but honestly I’ve been here at HUS for the better part of a year and I don’t think I’ve managed it once in all my posts. But, lets see:
“Ted exactly what is it about a woman who has had some casual sex (not talking super slut here)that bothers you? Is it someone else may have enjoyed her sexually?” – Yes. and more to the point, the fact that the man in question, if he even remembers her at all, remembers her as a cheap/easy/quick/great lay. I don’t give a rats ass what people think about me, but the thought of people thinking badly about my SO, my children, or my friends makes my blood boil.
” is it she may have enjoyed him sexually?” – Yes. and the fact that even though she “loves” me, she thought he was hot enough to fuck WITHOUT the prerequisite of love. And this doesn’t change if she thought I was hot enough to fuck without love at first by the way.
” why is her value perceived to be less by you and how does it bother you?” The million dollar question… I don’t value HER any less, but my perceived value of her sexuality is indeed less. Why? Well the more people she shared it with, the less value it has for each person. Its the lock and key thing I saw posted here somewhere. A key that opens many locks is valuable. A lock that opens for many keys is not. I realize that is a scarcity mentality. But, the entire reason for NOT being promiscuous is to increase that scarcity value. If I have only had sex with two people, the act of granting them access to that level of intimacy means more than if I had sex with 20. Because, if I had sex with 20 people, my threshold for who I deem worthy of my sexuality must be lower than the person that only had sex with two people.
It isn’t really about the ACT of sex. It is about how easily you allow others to access the most intimate parts of your being. It is how low you set the threshold for getting naked and vertical with someone. Call it conceded if you want, but MY intimacy is worth far more than any one night stand or FWB situation. When I decide to become intimate with a woman, it is a culmination of a process that means I have decided she is indeed worthy of having all of me, heart, mind, and soul. Not because she is flirty and has a nice ass.
I get that sex feels good and is fun. I love how it feels and enjoy it just like most everyone else. The difference is: for me, those are happy side effects of sex, not the entire purpose of it. The purpose of sex in my relationships is to form and foster the closest bonds possible between my SO and I. The fact that we find it fun and that it feels great is, as I implied above, a great bonus, not the goal. To me, people that have sex for the fun and pleasure of it are simply looking at sex from a very shallow perspective. Or, as I put it before, selling cheap.
Yohami is an NF guy I can talk to on an ideas level, but he’s really repulsive on a visceral level due to his number.
In addition to being completely confused by his posts, I was also repulsed by his number.
As odd as it sounds considering how much I dislike dependent people in general, I actually like to feel like my SO “needs” me to some extent. I imagine it is some type of validation for me, that it gives me a purpose to be with her, or more specifically, it gives her a purpose to stay with me.
Then I think we found an area where you are not an outlier; most men are with you on that score.
I know men that are the complete opposite. The last thing they want is someone “needing” them.
My DH is like that. If I want to piss him off, I’ll act needy, have him open a jar, ask him to do something I can do on my own, etc.
In my experience, these are the types of men that really dislike being tied down in general.
I can see that. DH, OTOH, is very loyal and likes commitment, but he hates stupidity and helplessness. He is the outlier here.
lol…blockquote fail
Yes, a friend of my daughter’s contracted genital herpes the night she lost her virginity to her “boyfriend” in college. Naturally, he claimed not to have had any idea he was a carrier. Could be true, but that’s what every guy says.
I’ve heard of girls praying for chlamydia or gonorrhea after being tested. As long as it’s curable with antibiotics, they don’t care. They’re not always lucky that way.
@Passer By
http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP.html
@Charm
Yes, we INTPs are the simultaneously the brightest and the least likely to succeed. Dreamers, every last one of us. A waste of gray matter sometimes. *sigh*
JM – “But… I mean, you understand that zombies aren’t real, right?”
Of course. But, any good “zombie plan” would work in most massive catastrophic type situations. It is only a “zombie” plan because my friends and I tend to sit around talking about it when we are drinking. What we are really doing is preparing for any kind of massive event, for instance the EMP blast I mentioned earlier.
Let me give you a small glimpse into the rabbit whole. Several of my close friends maintain “friendly” relations with guys that are, lets say, avid gun collectors. The primary reason? If shit ever hits the fan, we need to know where we can get our hands on lots of guns and ammo quickly. One of my closest friends has the equipment to reload casings and even do repair work on most firearms. My SO is a medical professional, as are several other people in our circle of friends. I and a few others have backgrounds in electronics, communications including satellite, and engineering. Hell I have an amateur radio license that I keep current “just in case”. All of us have at least a small stockpile of canned and dry goods in our homes (including bottled water) that would support our own household for at least a straight week without resupply, and at least one has a pretty substantial collection of home canned goods that he replenishes every year with his huge assed garden. I have several computer/PDA devices that are EMP proof, including a Panasonic Toughbook and an older Windows Mobile device made to be used in the field near electromagnetic fields. And tons of computer parts stored away in the hope that I could scrounge together a few working systems in a hurry if necessary. You can even create decent EMP protection by encasing your electronic device inside a Faraday Cage.
I can go on and on, but I think you get the picture. And yes, you may be one of the few people completely unprepared for a plague of dead people walking around.
@ Charm
So what you’re saying is that guys who say that will go against it when they marry? I suppose we’ll have to wait and see. I know promiscuous women 30+ whom are still single and I suspect will remain single. But my promiscuous friend who’s 24 is with the guy she’s been with for 4 years and they are discussing marriage. She didn’t say he is “okay” with it. She said he LIKES it.
@ Tom
Keep in mind I said PREFER or LIKE it. I suppose a lot of guys could be ‘okay’ with it. I think the large amount of men out there in relationships with very promiscuous women or married to women whom were very promiscuous in the past are simply unaware. They might think she was ‘a bit slutty’ in her college years, but is unaware of how bad it was. Women lie, and men buy it.
I didn’t talk about casual sex in general. In this day and age, most young people have had casual sex at some point. At least those from bigger cities, those I identify with. People have different opinions of what is promiscuous, but a woman of 25 with over 30 partners is promiscuous in my opinion, and I think most people would say so, unless they’re from LA.
@Marie
I don’t think there are many who do. Certainly here Tom is the only one. Feminist guys will, for obvious reasons. But most guys here have said, yeah, they love hanging out with sluts, maybe even dating them for a while. But only while they’re young and free. Most guys are more particular when it comes to real commitment, i.e. marriage.
Maybe the guys have some other thoughts.
“In addition to being completely confused by his posts”
I thought I was the only one!
Yikes Susan, that sucks for her.
Chlamydia and gonorrhea are not always symtompatic. They can infect a woman silently and badly damage her reproductive system, so a woman can become infertile without even knowing it until way later. That’s the scary part.
A lot of times men are silent carriers, too, showing no symptoms and think they’re “clean,” then they give something nasty to the girl. Condoms don’t protect against everything either. Another reason to be repulsed by promiscuous men who’ve bedded too many women.
@ Jesus Mahoney
Sorry, I was out picking up my handicapped brother from work. To answer your question, no, I know I’m not a 9 or 10. If you don’t think 8s face any problems, then my point is moot anyway.
@ Lokland
That just made me tingle in the worst way. I am definitely finding you when the zombie hordes start roaming the streets.
J: “Who exactly?”
First, my definition of “high” is not 200 or 100 or 25, but the top bracket of the CDC study which is more like 10+. And, I speak of the interactions right here. If a woman here says “poster X is hot” or “X just gave me tingles” or “X is such a catch” (note – not all women say this) you can be reasonably assured that X has at one point revealed his # to be above the median.
It’s amusing to watch preselection in action when talking about it!
@J
Yeah, that rings about 90-95% true (with the other 5-10% owing to the fact that it’s impossible to fit all of humanity into 16 neat boxes).
Any love for ENFJs here? Lol.
@ Cooper, my bf has a low count (higher than mine obv, but low even in the general sense) and it was a factor that was important to me before agreeing to be in a relationship.
@marie, Susan
Maybe this guy has a cuckold fetish or something like that.
LOL @ JM
funny guy
If a zombie infestation or outbreak ever occurred, I’m not ashamed to admit that I would be the damsel in distress type. I would probably be too freaked out to do anything proactive. I’d saddle right up to the nearest young guy and cling to him for dear life. I couldn’t even get through playing Left for Dead 2 without crying.
As an INTP, I am going to go home tonight and formulate a very complicated and brilliant zombie plan which I will unable to implement.
My husband has a huge ammo stock and a couple of guns, including a civilian assault rifle. I have a gun, too. I know how to use it becase he taught me.
We have some food stores and supplies, but really, if doomsday really hits, I would rather die in my sleep than try to survive. I’m not very fond of crappy living conditions, even though I’ve lived it and could live it again.
I’m not the easily breaking down type. I calmly walked to the cab by myself to get to the hospital when I was bleeding to death. I didn’t start crying about the news of my stillbirth until everyone else except my husband was out of the hospital room.
So being girly does not automatically mean weak and helpless. I’m a tough little cookie. Or something. It’s probably because I’ve just been through some crap.
Esco #512
Nah. It was really disconcerting for me to read his posts. I could recognize all the words, but the concepts made no sense to me. After a while, I just stopped reading them.
As an INTP, I am going to go home tonight and formulate a very complicated and brilliant zombie plan which I will unable to implement.
Great idea. I shall devote some time tonight to thinking about that and then abandon the idea after throwing up my hands.
@Passer_By
Lol, its okay. Ive heard that the reason that the INTP and NTJs get along so well is because the INTP can think up some really awesome shit and the NTJ will gladly bring their plan back down to earth and let them know what is possible and what hasn’t been yet invented…probably by an INTP.
@Marie
I dont doubt that some men like it. There are exceptions to every rule. But someone theoretically being able to stomach something is fine until a man has to stand face to face with the many men that have screwed his gf/fiance/wife. How long does that line have to get before it starts to piss you off after a while?
The one that is 30+ could get married tomorrow. There are plenty of lower betas, and omegas that would take her gladly, she probably thinks she can do better. Sadly she can’t. She wasted her youth and thats what she gets. In the words of EarthWindandFire “Thats the way……of the world.”
I know that I can put up with that crap and would probably be attracted to a man like Hopes husband or Ted as they weren’t impressed by that type of behavior. Being unimpressed alone would separate any man from the pack in a heartbeat. I imagine there are a fair portion of guys out there like that but they hide so they dont face any judgement.
OTC #515
Yeah, I agree. I don’t think 10 is repulsively high to most women, especially in these days of later marriage. OTOH, I’ve never cybertingled myself, so…
That is not to say that there aren’t men here that I like as people, though the men I like here tend to be in stable relationships.
can’t* put up with that crap
Re Zombie plan
Noooooo INTPs dont abandon the plan. It can be implemented. Believe in yourself. Thats what ENTJs do. We blindly have faith in ourselves and the shit oddly enough pays off.
@Sassy
Re Left for Dead 2
Lol, the horde scares the shit out of me. And all the special zombies. You never know where the hunter is until the mofo is on your back attacking you. And the boomer just ruined you damn day when you were almost to the checkpoint.
@SayWhaat
Right here, from a fellow ENFJ!
LMAO
@ Charm
Oh, I totally know what you mean.
The weird thing is that I’m generally a levelheaded person. I’ve been in a few medical emergencies that have involved me helping other people. I kept my cool, did what I needed to do to help them, and everything went smoothly.
I just know all that levelheadedness would fly out of the window with zombies. An army of reanimated corpses chasing after me just freaks me out. I’d rather have a man by my side who knows how to shoot a gun (I’ll handle a crossbow or longbow) and who can keep me focused. If he needed to slap some sense into me to calm me down, I’d be cool with that. As smart as I am, I know to let a man lead a human militia. I’d help in any way that I could, but I wouldn’t dare be the one to lead anyone during something like that.
@Sassy
Id take the utmost pleasure in kicking the ass of so many zombies. Though I agree with Hope, Im not to fond of living in a world that is ending. I might just go ahead and kill myself. But If I didn’t Id go renegade on those mofos. Though the one thing I hate about zombie apocalypse is that there is always one fucking person that makes an emotionally rash decision that endangers tons of people. If your husband gets turned into a zombie, kill his ass, this goes for your children and other family memebers to0. A zombie apocalypse is not time to be human. Its the one time where relying on animal instinct will keep you alive.
I just hate that game because it I dont like surprises. Those zombies always sneak the hell up on you. Always.
@charm
“Id take the utmost pleasure in kicking the ass of so many zombies”
It all sounds exciting and gratifying until you get your brains eaten.
I pity the zombie that screws with my family, srsly…Other than that, I really don’t judge zombies.
>> “Am I the only one here not prepared for an attack of the living dead?”
Nope! Zombies are boring. I’d be so screwed if they tried to take over.
Charm,
Yes, sarcasm. As you’ve stated yourself, just the way you post comes off as very masculine and it is off putting to me at least. OTOH, Hope could probably make the same point as you and it would come across much better in my eyes. But you say you understand the value in being more feminine, and you are working on it, so I can appreciate that sentiment.
@Cooper
I’m not sure if this has to do with your comment, but I can think of advantages of dating a male virgin or a man with a low number. You can teach him how to do sexual things the way exactly how you like. Some men with a high number assume that all women are the same, and a woman can either keep her mouth shut or redirect him (which he may take offense).
As for men that tolerate promiscuous women, I only knew one. He was one of the most misogynistic and sociopathic men that I have met. He was also promiscuous himself. I suspected he had issues with bonding as well.
It’s not that girls prefer guys because of their high numbers. It’s just that the guys who girls prefer tend to have high numbers because they have more options. The high number is a symptom, not a cause, of their attractiveness.
Well now. I guess my friends and I arent as far into crazy militia territory as I thought. Good to know.
@Marie
There is a term for this guys in the manosphere. “Captain-save-a-ho”. Who says men don’t have “I will change her/She is just misunderstood” fantasy? Oh boy they do.
@Charm
I had a serious case of the bitchface (maybe that is why I like Kristen Stewart so much) while growing up. I killed with smiling and I learned to smile a lot. Now I don’t think I have more than two pictures where I’m nto smiling. You should try it is actually easier in the muscles face. Only 14 to smile and like 72 to keep the frown. You will look better and younger longer.
Funny enough my husband is also like you he hates surprises oh so much I guess for the same reasons you and Ted do. I’m cool with that I didn’t pretended to marry my clone so for me marriage is a journey of self discovery and discovering him and then discovering my kids. But you probably wouldn’t like me till you see me handling a stressful situation. I’m very emotional with positive feelings like smiling, singing to myself, telling compliments so people assuming the worst of us “emotional types” but with hard situations and stress I’m very capable of keeping my head cold and collected and I had done it before with much success and to much people surprise that were thinking I was going to end up a mesh on the floor. “We will conquer this or die trying, tears are for the ending” is my motto, YMMV.
@JM
It seems that you are the only one. Hubby has his ZombieApocalypse plan ready to execute. Me loves a prepared man. Let’s hope your girlfriend has more sense than you. :p
As an ENFJ I can say that I needed my husband if I didn’t need a man I wouldn’t had married at all. But I need him and I’m happy that I do. He does likes that I’m not totally clingy but he likes my “flares of clinginess” like when I spontaneously remember something nice he did for me and I kiss him and tell him how good husband he is and I totally mean it.
I’ve actually never heard of a zombie plan before today. I have to admit that this conversation is making feel a bit estranged from the group.
Oh well.
@JM
Neither had I, but, you know, if everyone’s doing it, I guess we’d better get with the program or get left behind.
Look on the bright side, you are virtually surrounded by a bunch of people with a zombie plan. So, although our outlier status may make this an echo box of sorts, the same social dynamics appears to make it a veritable wealth of zombie survival knowledge.
I’m from Western PA, zombies are in my heritage.
@Anaecona
“As an ENFJ ”
So, you are the same as me? Yay, I finally can have something to relate to some of you.
Look on the bright side, you are virtually surrounded by a bunch of people with a zombie plan. So, although our outlier status may make this an echo box of sorts, the same social dynamics appears to make it a veritable wealth of zombie survival knowledge.
My husband’s said that he has a plan alright…becoming lunch.
. So JM don’t trust Ted he is probably writing down “Human sacrifice: Check” on his list of supplies 
@WW
I think SayWhaat is also a ENFJ. Don’t trust my E and my F though they are 25% or with time I might turn into a INTJ. I wonder how life would be on the other side..is so close. :p
A zombie attack seems like a pretty low-probability event. The danger of humans turning into rhinoceri, though, must be guarded against steadfastly.
“So JM don’t trust Ted he is probably writing down “Human sacrifice: Check””
Rofl. I did recently admit that I could relate to a general that would knowingly send men into a minefield, so this may be the best advice for the day!
That being said, our plans don’t actually include intentional sacrifices. But, we also probably wouldn’t have a lot of sympathy for those that couldn’t keep up. And it would be a lie if I said the term “cannon fodder” never came up in conversation…
@ExNY
“For all we know, the (2/3)*).(50) could be women’s ‘fallback position’ when the higher number guys wouldn’t commit…”
You’re right, in that the raw numbers don’t prove (or disprove) anyone’s preferences. So if you have any hard data that a majority of married women, or women period for that matter, are disappointed that they couldn’t land the good-looking players for relationships, please share it. I’d be curious to see the results. But if it’s true that the low-to-mid count married folks are truly happy with each other, and they’re 1/3 of the population, they certainly aren’t outliers.
Since a solid majority of men (75%) and women (80%) have single digit partner counts, I’m not sure what speculating about an entire gender’s motivations accomplishes. There’s a vast spectrum of preferences out there. Is it fair to say that most guys who tied the knot are secretly wishing they could have landed the hot Baywatch bimbo? Let me know when they invent a mind-reading device and we’ll find out : )
“Definitely. The sexual double standard really is rooted in biology. It makes sense for men to be more wary of prior sexual experience”
Despite me and other posting links to studies showing that biologically and historically women are just as, if not more, promiscuous than men.
Do you not recall the many conversations with Aldonza, myself and others going over the same points over and over?
There is no ethical or biological justification for the hypocritical and nasty ‘double standard’
C’mom Susan- there is no need to keep pushing that misinformation
Yea, I for some reason seem to come in like 5 years later than other girls. When I hit puberty and they other girls were cooing over men, I didn’t get it. I didn’t get interested in men until I was 18. I’ve pretty much been on tomboy mode for the last 22 years and Im just now FINALLY growing out of it. Lol. Just now. I can feel it happening. I think now Im ready to embrace it. If that makes any sense. Before it was very foreign to me.
But that being said, I’ll never be the pink wearing, celeb gossping, squealing, can’t open a jar of damn pickles kind of girl. Never, but Ill be more feminine then I was in the past. I feel like my femininity wisdom teeth are coming in. Im a big kid now!
@Ted #549
It would be every man for him damn self. If my life was on the line you better believe Id save my ass first. Also, if the zombies were gaining on us Id have no problem tripping someone and throwing them to them. Itd be a dog it dog world man. Id expect others to try and do the same to me.
Sometimes you just gotta sacrifice a couple dozen to save yourself.
@Anacona
Lol, bitch face? Kristen Stewart is one of the most expression less people on the planet.
Im not too bad though. Call my name and my expression will change instantly. I can go from looking angry to happy in a second. I’ve actually read somewhere that poeple that if you look intimidating at first but turn out to be really nice that you get more social points because people will be pleasantly surprise. So I play that card. Not intentionally, but I figure I already got one piece naturally so I might as well make a gain.
Also, I do smile a lot. I love talking shit and bantering and laughing my butt off and stuff. When Im on a roll, I roll. But when Im alone or quiet my face goes into impassive mode.
Lol, bitch face? Kristen Stewart is one of the most expression less people on the planet.
I keep hearing that I but don’t see it. I think she has plenty of expression and I love her acting. I guess is one of those things about faces….:/ She does has a bitchface when she doesn’t smile or when she is been traveling for twelve hours in a plane. In person she is prettier and looks friendlier.
This rings very true to me. But I always thought it was more because of my (rather extreme) introversion. Last time I took one of the MBTI tests, I was a very strong introvert, moderately strong T, and rather weak N and J (and based on the descriptions, I’m starting to think I fit the mold more of ‘INTP’ rather than ‘INTJ.’ I can be easily swayed, and I don’t have the kind of outlook that Charm describes). Anyway I always thought there was something wrong with me because I didn’t want all the stereotypical girl stuff in a relationship (lots of flighty, bordering on ditzy behavior). I’m glad now that I’ve realized that there are ways to be feminine that are still congruent with who I am and that at least a certain subset of men apparently like.
Cooper- I always fantasized about ‘losing’ my virginity to an experienced, hot older man. This opportunity actually presented itself, with someone I’d been dating for a while, who joked about being my ‘teacher,’ but I walked away. I don’t know his ‘number,’ but given his age and attractiveness, I’m pretty sure it was above the median. The reality didn’t live up to the fantasy– while I feel like the sex would (after the first few times) have been incredible, I didn’t want to enter into a sexual relationship where the power dynamic would have been completely in his favor. And I say that even as someone who’s pretty submissive. Also, as much as people say women in their early 20′s should look at older men and not guys in their own age range for something besides hooking up, the truth is that significant age differences (in this case, 12 years) means that he usually doesn’t take you as seriously, and sometimes sees you as a number–your age. So for all these reasons I’m seriously re-thinking my “hot older man” fantasy (*sigh*).
Jesus Mahoney- I know a few girls I would say are 9′s (they model, but not runway modeling. so they’re of medium height and have t&a). Based on what I’ve seen, they can have their pick of men and make them boyfriends, including the socially dominant ones. However, they’re all very extroverted and flirty and very much the social ‘norm.’
I do think there is an effect for them that’s parallel to the one for men who sleep around a lot and get more and more dissatisfied with each partner–these girls get hit on so much that there’s just a lot more to see as wrong with each next guy that approaches.
Anyway, they usually long-term date the richest dudes in their social circles.
@charm
“Also, if the zombies were gaining on us Id have no problem tripping someone and throwing them to them.”
It’s like that old joke. You don’t have to be fast enough to outrun the zombies. You just have to be fast enough outrun the guy/gal next you, and if tripping that person helps, so be it.
They were clean and sober while things were good, but as soon as life got tough, which it always does, they went back to using. To me, a promiscuous past is indeed a lot like a former drug addiction. Sure you can stop having casual sex, and even believe you are done with it.
@Charm and @Ted
During Zombie Apocalipse you are not entering my bunker! :p
jess,
Only one of those studies provided anything more than the abstract and a preview. The one I could read, the study of students in an exclusive Bolivian school, was interesting.
But the way in which it defined “self-esteem” was problematic for me. First of all, the researchers broke self-esteem down into 3 categories: “home” self-esteem, “peer” self-esteem, and “school” self-esteem. Then, they seemed to define each category as how the individual felt they rated in the eyes of others (at home, with peers, and among teachers). This isn’t a very reliable indication of how the individual students see themselves. One can be aware of how highly she rates among her peers and yet believe that the estimation of her peers is based on a facade.
Finally, the researchers found a negative correlation between promiscuity and how highly students felt their parents esteemed them.
So I think the study is flawed. Basically, all it proves is that people with better social skills are more promiscuous. Which most people would consider obvious–kids with less friends have less opportunities to hump.
Lol. We are planning to either head for an island or to northern Canada. Water and/or cold should slow zombies down considerably. Although, the book World War Z talked about zombies walking on the bottom of the ocean! Hence the discussion of Canada instead. :p
Charm – Rolf. That is some cannon fodder right there! I will say this, as long as I’m alive and with my core group, we would do our best to remain at least semi-civil. I wouldn’t resort to those kinds of tactics until there were no other options. But, I would certainly do it if it came down to me and mine versus everyone else left. I figure that should be enough incentive for the less work inclined to pull their weight with us.
Jess – I agree with you believe it or not. I’m tired of the double standard, but I have a solution. How about everyone stop screwing like rabbits and then men AND women will have low numbers, and there would be no double standard to speak of? No? In that case, as a person with a low number I will continue to voice my opinion that everyone with high numbers is a bad choice for anything serious. And, I don’t feel in the least bit hypocritical about it.
Jess,
Also, you have to ask yourself where one’s esteem is coming from. In other words, what does one value about herself?
For example, it’s clear that for many gamers, their sense of self-esteem is derived from the fact that they can bed a lot of women. We all recognize how unhealthy this is. The same holds true for women. If their sense of self-esteem is derived from how many guys are attracted to her, then there’s a problem–especially for a man looking to commit to her. Because if she’s used to getting her self-esteem from male attention, how can we be sure she’s not going to revert back to that tactic in moments of insecurity?
Ted,
Why would cold slow them down? You’d think they’d want to jog a bit to stay warm? Plus, the body burns more calories in the cold–Canada would have hungrier zombies than Florida. They’d require more brains.
I mean, unless they raid the clothing stores for some thermal underwear before looking for some food.
JM
For example, it’s clear that for many gamers, their sense of self-esteem is derived from the fact that they can bed a lot of women. We all recognize how unhealthy this is. The same holds true for women. If their sense of self-esteem is derived from how many guys are attracted to her, then there’s a problem–especially for a man looking to commit to her. Because if she’s used to getting her self-esteem from male attention, how can we be sure she’s not going to revert back to that tactic in moments of insecurity?
____________
Good points. I think you said it right, male attention. Her new man is a male.If he gives her the attention she needs she has no reason to look else where. it is the mental state of the woman that is impoortant and the reasons she played. It is not always about a lack of self esteem . Even if it is, a good man can boost her self esteem greatly.
Tom,
The question isn’t whether or not her self esteem is low, it’s a question of where she derives her self-esteem. In the case of a promiscuous woman, you need to ask yourself whether or not validation from one man is enough for her. For a healthy person, it should be enough, true. But if you’re trying to evaluate relationship fitness, then promiscuity would suggest the possibility that validation from one man may not be enough.
Jess, of course you are right.
Proof is in the pudding. Now that the fear of prego is not there, because of effective birth control, women have ignored the shamming that held them back and have acted more like the naturally promiscuopus male counterparts.
Not saying that is a good thing, it is what it is.
Trust me, if men were the ones who had to carry AND raise a baby and were constantly being shamed for “spreading their seed” they would have been a lot less promiscuous.
If I had the possibility of having a baby, I sure as hell would not be doing anyone who wasnt a potential mate. THAT is how it was with women funtill the lasy 40 years.
The jenie is out of the bottle, get used to it, because it will only multiply.
Tom,
Also, most men want a woman who’s self-esteem is intact. They don’t want someone who needs to feed on validation in order to maintain a sense of personal value.
As for this:
I think that’s what men are trying to do: get used to it. In a way, I don’t think the situation is all that bad. With all the free reign that women have today, it’s easier to judge their true character. In previous eras, women were hemmed in by circumstances. Now that they’re able to choose more freely, men at least have the advantage to see which women have made good decisions.
JM
The question isn’t whether or not her self esteem is low, it’s a question of where she derives her self-esteem. In the case of a promiscuous woman, you need to ask yourself whether or not validation from one man is enough for her. For a healthy person, it should be enough, true. But if you’re trying to evaluate relationship fitness, then promiscuity would suggest the possibility that validation from one man may not be enough.
_______________
I agree.. Promiscuity “might” suggest the possibility of the need for validation. That is why you get to know her over time, to evaluate if she is indeed healthy or a hopeless person in need of validation. The hopless need for validation types are the ones I refer to as super sluts. It isnt the sex that they have, but the underlying esteem problems they have that forces them to sleep around. I know both types.
Jesus M – “Why would cold slow them down?”
Because, since zombies are dead, they do not generate body heat, and will freeze solid once the temp gets below 32. Of course, spring thaw would mean hunting expeditions around our encampment or whatever we are living in.
There are books that explain a lot of this.
The Zombie Survival Guide and World War Z come to mind, but there are others.
Also, on a more realistic note, this:
http://www.amazon.com/What-When-Shit-Hits-Fan/dp/1602391335
I have an older version of this book and it has a good bit of useful information for any emergency.
Sure, that would be great advice if men *had* to choose between super sluts and other promiscuous women. But they don’t have to. Easier to just stick to the non-promiscuous women than to waste time getting to know whether the promiscuous women are trustworthy or not.
Ted,
How can zombies burn energy to move and function w/o creating body heat?
JM
I think that’s what men are trying to do: get used to it. In a way, I don’t think the situation is all that bad. With all the free reign that women have today, it’s easier to judge their true character. In previous eras, women were hemmed in by circumstances. Now that they’re able to choose more freely, men at least have the advantage to see which women have made good decisions.
____________
I totally agree.
According to the numbers of active young people, both male and female, the “problem” is no worse than when I was in college in the 70`s. Much hubub about nothing, IMO.
I think you and I are both concerned as to the ‘why’ they choose to freely choose..lol Any person, male or female can fall into the trap of being somewhat promiscuous. It is the why, that concerns me the most.
I will say men who are highly promiscuous can be just as fucked up as his female counterpart. I dont buy the notion that it is because he is doing what comes naturally, that applies to women also. There are other reasons beside biology that causes the super slut, both male and female.
JM
Sure, that would be great advice if men *had* to choose between super sluts and other promiscuous women. But they don’t have to. Easier to just stick to the non-promiscuous women than to waste time getting to know whether the promiscuous women are trustworthy or not.
_________________
Heres the thing, you have to spend the same amount of time on ANY propective mate. You dont know if they are hiding anything from their past, you dont know if they are lying, or if there are skeletons in the closet.
Sure it might be easier with a virgin, but not many of them to go around.
Tom,
Absolutely true. You need to spend time getting to know someone well. However, if you know from the start that there are some possible red flags, it’s easier to move on to the next girl, no?
Also, if you’ve gotten to know the girl and you still can’t be sure whether or not her promiscuous past is a red flag pointing to possible future problems, aren’t you better off just getting out of the relationship?
speaking of Zombies, the best Zombie movie of all time is the original,”Night of the living Dead”
A great line from that movie… ”
Bust `em and Burn `em”
JM
Absolutely true. You need to spend time getting to know someone well. However, if you know from the start that there are some possible red flags, it’s easier to move on to the next girl, no?
Also, if you’ve gotten to know the girl and you still can’t be sure whether or not her promiscuous past is a red flag pointing to possible future problems, aren’t you better off just getting out of the relationship?
______________
Sure it is easier to move on to the next woman, absolutely. But if this woman is an awesome woman, I am going to be damn sure I cant trust her before moving on. That has happened with me. A really nice woman, but there were esteem red flags, so I moved on. I think an air of desperation is a red flag indicating esteem problems.
Tom,
Of course. If she’s awesome, then you need to stop and consider what you’re doing. I don’t think any of the men here would disagree with that.
But don’t you agree that 1. men looking for a relationship are better off seeking less promiscuous women, and 2. men should at least proceed with caution when they find out about a history of promiscuity in a woman they’re already involved with?
JM
Yup I agree, generally.
In todays litigious society we live in, I suggest all men proceed with caution in all cases.
Tom,
Cool. I think that’s what we’re saying. There’s also the difference in values, like we talked about somewhere up-thread. But in general, that’s what we’re saying.
Ted,
I believe Neil Strauss, who wrote “Game” and “Rules of the Game,” also wrote a book on how to survive doomsday scenarios.
Tom,
Just out of curiosity, do you know your Myers-Briggs type?
JM
Values are important, I dont deny that. Or I should say matching values. Value is subjective. Its kind of like religion and politcts. Not impossible to get along if there are differences, but it works a little easier if they match.
If a personhas a set of values he/she thinks is important, it would really take a special peron of different values to attract the other, if it could happen at all.
JM
Myers-Briggs type?
nope im not familiar at all.. Clue me in, what is it?
Tom,
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp
Answered the questions.. =ENFP
Cool. I was just curious. Thanks.
enfj on the link you sent me… enfp on another site i googled…
Look at that.
Tom and Jesus share a similar type.
Tom – “Heres the thing, you have to spend the same amount of time on ANY propective mate.”
Surely. But, if the woman you are considering already has some strikes against her, then you REALLY have to decide up front if she is even close to that awesome. My current SO has a higher count than me. Not nearly as high as many people here have posted, but my count of 5 makes just about any normal person in their 30′s look over sexed. I still maintain that had I taken the red pill prior to meeting my SO, I may very well have passed early on. I would have missed the opportunity to be with a wonderful woman, but the truth is, her past stacks the odds against me from the start. I’m already involved, so I’m willing to take the risk sticking it out. But, she is also very understanding of my concerns, has a proven track record of being willing and able to remain faithful, even when her ex was not, and has demonstrated to me that she has indeed had a change of heart regarding her outlook on casual sex.
I do understand where you are coming from Tom, and I have to agree that on an individual level, you are mostly correct IMO. But, just because it worked out for me, doesn’t mean it will for most guys. Maybe I’m lucky, my ex-wife didn’t rake me over the coals, steal money from me, and use my children as a weapon against me either. I’d like to think its because I do indeed do my homework in regards to vetting people, and because of that I tend to only choose decent people to be a part of my life. It could also be that I’m very lucky. Since I can’t control luck, I’m going with the first explanation.
None of that changes this simple fact: a woman (or man) with a promiscuous past is more likely to cheat and/or simply divorce down the road. Of course that is not true of every single individual in the world. But, if it is true of 75% of all promiscuous people, how willing are you to take the chance that the lovely woman in front of you is one of the other 25%?
Ted
how willing are you to take the chance that the lovely woman in front of you is one of the other 25%?
_________
I trust my judgement of people.
Ive passed on women before, and I think I was right about them.
The people who say all promiscuous people are a bad bet are about as correct as men who say all low count women are sexually inhibited. Sure some are, but certianly not all.
There are millions of men who are married to women they think/hope are low count, and they they are not. The women over the years have showed no signs of damage. It just does not come up in a lot of relationships. Kind of ,”Dont ask, dont tell.”
As for 75% of promiscuous people getting divorced.. Not sure I buy that, at least amoung the educated people… I might say a more liberal minded woman of today is probably not going to put up with most mens BS like their Moms did.
Tom – First off, I pulled those numbers out of my ass. please DO NOT take the 75/25 example I made to heart.
If you are confident in your ability to screen people, more power to you. I would counter though, that your comment proves my point here:
“There are millions of men who are married to women they think/hope are low count, and they they are not. ”
If that is true, then obviously a LOT of men are not so good at judging people, if indeed they were/are concerned with partner counts. If not, and their wives are loyal and faithful? Great. No harm/no foul. *I* am concerned with partner count, along with a ton of other things. I used to think I was a good judge of character, and I still believe I am better than the average person at it, but here I am at 41 years old, divorced and starting over with another woman, which tells me I can certainly get it wrong. Sure, my ex IS indeed a “good” person. She didn’t dig me for alimony, she actually worked WITH me to determine what was best for our children in terms of custody, and despite our divorce we still get along quite well. But, the fact is she still divorced me, and at the time I only knew “something” was wrong, but neither of us could figure out what.
I now know what that “something” was. But, that really doesn’t change the fact that I misjudged my ex. I thought she was the type of person that would stick it out through thick and thin, but in fact she had a “breaking point” and we found it. I still believe I am a good judge of people (after all, I’m “J” so judging is what I do) but the truth is: my divorce really shook up my faith and belief in women in general. Add to that the “red pill” and all the knowledge that comes from it, and I find myself in very unsettled territory. Toss in my risk averse tendencies, and I’m sure you can see why I am so cautious and wary. Is that fair to the thousands of formerly promiscuous women that may make me a wonderful wife? Nope. But, I am good with being selfish in this matter. I have not only myself to consider, but my children as well. So, I don’t care about fair. My only concern is MY outcome. All things being equal, I see promiscuity as a valid concern, and possibly a valid reason for disqualification. That doesn’t mean my attitude is “right and just”, but it is certainly right for me.
Tom,
So, if you agree that relationship-minded men are better off focusing on non-promiscuous women, and if you agree that shared values are an important aspect of a relationship, then it would follow that you also agree that relationship-minded women should avoid casual sex. Right?
/grabs a drink and some popcorn to watch this show.
JM – nice question. I didn’t see it, but that was a good catch.
JM
So, if you agree that relationship-minded men are better off focusing on non-promiscuous women, and if you agree that shared values are an important aspect of a relationship, then it would follow that you also agree that relationship-minded women should avoid casual sex. Right?
________________
In general, yes, but it isnt that black and white.
I think if a relationship minded woman IS having casual sex, she needs to understand that a good amount of relationship minded men may not want her.
I do think there are plenty of men who will give her a chance, but her pool is smaller, for sure.
Another idea is the number question really isnt discussed in @ half of relationships. Most men are not like me, or possibly you. Most men just do not want to know, or are afraid to ask.
Some women see it as insecurity if a man asks, but that is not the way I see it. It is a possible red flag indentification. If I were a man in my mid thirties, and getting to know a woman the same age, and her number is under 15 or 20, I would not be very alarmed. If we were 25 and her number was @ 20, I would probably put her under the spotlight.
Also, lets not forget a lot of men play the field until they find the one who they fall for. They might describe themselves as relationship minded too.
continued…
So yeah if it is important for a man to want a low count woman, and a low count woman wants the same in her man, then yes, they may be ideal for each other.
Tom,
I’ve decided not to ask about my gf’s number for a load of reasons. First and foremost, it’s too direct. “Courtship” is like an extended flirtation–direct and confrontational don’t work very well with either. I’d prefer to get to know her in a more natural way. Things come out in conversation with her, bits and pieces her family mentions, in a photo I might see, etc… If I couldn’t get a good sense of her that way, that I wouldn’t pursue the relationship.
Second of all, the “number” by itself doesn’t say much. I mean, I’ve heard stories of virgins who are saving themselves for marriage that have sucked crazy dick (think “Clerks.” 37?). It could also be that the number is low but still includes some slutty acts. It could be that a high number indicates she went through a slutty period but has made significant changes in her life. The number question just begets more questions and unless you want to take the direct, “interrogation” route (which would kill a lot of attraction and intimacy), then it’s not worth it.
Finally, it’s more important to me who she is now. Who she is now is definitely a result of past experiences, but I know my gf is a great person right now. It would pain me to know she went through a slutty period, but she’s so perfect the way she is right now, I think I’d overlook it.
That said, if I knew she had a cavalier attitude about sex, if I knew she didn’t think sex equaled love, that would put a chink in things, that would at the very least change the way that I relate to her in the bedroom.
JM – “Finally, it’s more important to me who she is now. Who she is now is definitely a result of past experiences, but I know my gf is a great person right now. It would pain me to know she went through a slutty period, but she’s so perfect the way she is right now, I think I’d overlook it.
That said, if I knew she had a cavalier attitude about sex, if I knew she didn’t think sex equaled love, that would put a chink in things, that would at the very least change the way that I relate to her in the bedroom.”
I concur. This is pretty much where I am now, although the “number” still matters to an extent. I’ve always maintained though that I am more concerned with how she got that number, than the number itself.
Indeed your last paragraph sums up my thoughts on it. It is my SO’s current attitude towards sex that matters the most. It really doesn’t matter that once upon a time she had some casual encounters. What matters is that now she isn’t interested in anything casual, and instead recognizes and looks for the quality stuff instead.
But, all that aside, I will still stick to my guns that for any man looking to form a LTR, formerly promiscuous women are simply a bigger gamble. Again, that is not fair to plenty of women like my SO, that had a genuine change of heart. I can’t change that fact. All I can say is, if you are a young woman and haven’t jumped on the casual carousel, think long and hard before you do. If you are a women that has already spent time riding, do whatever you can to prove you are no longer that women. I can’t promise it will help, because for me it would depend greatly on what else you bring to the table. But understand, if you want a chance with me (or a guy like me) at all, you will be starting at a disadvantage that you will need to overcome. You will need to prove your are a good risk, even though you never did anything directly to me that would make me think you aren’t.
If that is too bitter a pill to swallow, don’t come looking for guys like me.
JM.
Good for you, you have a really healthy attitude towards her.
In my book, who she is now trumps all she did in her past (within reason, of course)
Not sying she has a past, but whatever she has done sexual or not, has helped form who she is today.
As you know my GF has a past. She is a wonderful person, mother, partner. She definately learned from her experiences, that the single life is not for her. I have little worries of her returning to it. Her friend showed me some emails between the two of them (my gf was aware) in those emails my GF expressed how she hated the single life and couldnt wait to find a good guy. She had lost faith in men because of a couple times she got played. She understood, most of these guys only wanted sex, while she was hoping for more. Those emails were back and forth right before I met her.
She had been married for a little over 10 years. That went south and her next LTR also ended badly because he was a cheater. She then kind of swore off relationships for 2 or 3 years.
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