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The Sad Reality of Using Anxiety to Generate Attraction

This is a post for my female readers.

I want to warn you about an insidious recommendation that periodically makes the rounds in the ‘sphere, one that when employed can destroy the quality of your relationship and change the background music of your life into a relentless hum of anxiety. I am talking about the exploitative practice of a man’s instilling dread and fear in his partner to gain the upper hand in the relationship. In particular, the practice of your boyfriend or husband flirting with other women or reminding you in any number of ways that he “has options.” Here’s how the PUA thinking goes:

A woman will lose attraction for her husband if she doesn’t believe that he is actively desired by other women. Like jumper cables on a low battery, insecurity and jealousy work to kick start a flaccid relationship, or keep it finely tuned. Anxiety generates sexual desire. The goal is to first generate fear, then allay that fear. Rinse and repeat for the duration of the relationship. 

Whew. I’m uneasy and exhausted just thinking about it. Do we like it when we get the prize guy, the guy that other girls want? Yeah, we do, we like to win the prize. And we like to parade that boy. “He’s mine, all mine! Eat your hearts out, ladies!” Of course, female intrasexual competition being what it is, some biddies are going to flirt with our man. “Hell no, don’t go there bitch. Because he loves me, and he’s not available. I know how to keep my man happy.” There is no better feeling than knowing that the love of your man is secure, that you have taken him off the market and satisfied him. It’s a requirement for a healthy marriage.

What happens when we see the man we love flirting with other women?  Responding to them, maybe even encouraging them? How do we feel? Lucky that he has options, that he could leave and get another woman with ease? 

God no. We feel ashamed. Why is the man who claims to love us seeking affirmation and sexual validation from other women? Now those biddies are laughing at us, they know the commitment is vulnerable – perhaps he can be poached. Apparently our man is lining up alternatives, “just in case.” We know he’s desirable, other women lighting up when he’s around tells us that. What we wish we didn’t know is that he’s milking it, wants more of it, is getting off on it. It’s deeply humiliating and painful for a woman in love.

A man who does this is displaying low relationship fitness, in one of two ways:

  1. He is genuinely interested in generating sexual attraction with other women, even while professing to love you.
  2. He is using this behavior as a ploy to keep you on your toes.
If he’s employing the first strategy, he’s a cad. Enough said.
 
If he’s employing the second strategy, he is operating from a mindset of lack, or scarcity. This is ironic, since he is attempting to secure your sexual attraction by conveying abundance. However, he is waging the battle to secure the Position of Least Interest, which means that his win is your loss. There must always be a winner and a loser. That is a very poor paradigm for a successful relationship.
 
How do I know this? Because I watched this dynamic with my own parents. My father is a highly charismatic and witty man. He is a great storyteller. The first full sentence I ever uttered, as I fished an olive out of his martini, was to tell my mother to go wash his shirts and leave us alone. My entire life I have watched people drawn to my father like moths to a flame. 
 
Women always flirted with my father, and he always flirted back. I recall the late 60s, lying awake while waiting for my parents to return from a party, then the muffled sound of my mother’s weeping as they returned and she spoke of the humiliation of watching this spectacle. Once I peered out of my bedroom to watch the grownups in our living room, and saw my father being dragged into the middle of the room to dance with a neighbor, who threw her arms around his neck. He was enjoying himself. At 10, I knew how my mother would feel about it, and it made me feel sick.
 
I was perpetually afraid of learning that my parents were divorcing. It was clear to me, even as a child, that my father would not stop, even though it hurt my mother. His own mother had left when he was three, so perhaps that explained his insensitivity and need for female validation. Once my best friend told me how much she loved my dad, how everyone loved my dad, but that she was glad he wasn’t her dad. How I longed for a boring and staid father when I was a child!
 
Neither commitment nor marriage need look like this. Thirty years ago I fought off the undergrads to win my husband, and that was enough social proof to last a lifetime. I’m thankful that he has never encouraged flirting or sexual attraction with other women during our relationship, and that he has respected our marriage and our family. 

This kind of behavior should be a dealbreaker. If your boyfriend does it once, let him know how it makes you feel. If he does it again, get the hell out. If your husband suddenly starts flirting with other women, address it immediately. Figure out where his fear and insecurity lies, and rush to reassure him in every way you can. This dynamic is a relationship destroyer, and it’s toxic for children. Don’t enable it.  

 

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  • http://stuartschneiderman.blogspot.com/ Stuart Schneiderman

    This is a great post, Susan. Allow me to agree entirely with your point of view. Interesting enough, but I was just thinking about the most humiliated American spouse, one Hillary Clinton, and what kind of example her behavior sets for young women.

    After all, she is one of the most admired women in America, especially among feminists, and she has surely lived her life in complete defiance of your principle.

    I wonder what your readers think of your post in the context of the Clinton marriage.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stuart

      Thanks, I always feel happy to have the imprimatur of a trained psychoanalyst!

      You raise an interesting point about the Clintons. It’s been speculated that she and Bill made a match of what? Wits? Ambition? Megalomania? Even if that’s true, she was clearly humiliated in the most public way. I honestly can’t imagine how she stood it, unless it was a condition of that unholy pact she’d made.

      I’ve wondered to what degree they totally screwed up Chelsea wrt relationships – I guess time will tell. She seems to have chosen a man very unlike her father on the face of it.

  • deti

    This post is fine, as far as it goes. Married men shouldn’t be overtly publicly flirting and definitely should not seek to prime the pump for other sexual partners. You don’t throw it in her face with “see, I don’t need you and I can get laid if I want to”. Something tells me women draw those conclusions on their own (and need no help from anyone else) if they are married to or in a serious relationship with an attractive man.

    But we American men have this tendency to settle into a relationship or marriage, let ourselves go, settle into boring routines, get flabby, and lose our edges. Wives don’t like it when we start losing or downplaying what attracted them to us in the first place. Men should be making themselves as attractive as they can be in all areas of our lives: physically and mentally. And we should not be ashamed of displaying what makes us attractive.

    This is one of the points of Athol Kay’s MAP. Generally, a married man who’s put on 50 pounds and is falling below his wife’s sex rank shouldn’t be surprised when her attraction falters. If he starts losing weight, working out, dressing and eating better, and starts looking better, other people (and other women) start noticing. The implicit message the husband sends the wife is: “I’m looking better and the world notices. But if you are still not attracted, perhaps someone else will be. If you don’t want me, someone else will.”

    It’s all well and good that married men should not actively encourage flirting. But they should not actively downplay their attractiveness either, and should not be ashamed that others notice that attractiveness.

    I had been married about 3 years and my wife and I were visiting my parents. While at a grocery store, a pregnant Mrs. deti and I ran into a girl I had dated a couple of times in high school. She said hi and to my surprise, she kissed me quick on the lips. I was shocked and didn’t know what to say. Mrs. deti was livid — not at me, but at her. I didn’t do anything to encourage this but stand there, introduce Mrs. deti, and chat up my old HS classmate.

    Let’s be careful not to discourage men from increasing their attractiveness or even displaying their attractiveness to the world at large. That’s not in anyone’s interest, his or hers.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Deti

      It’s all well and good that married men should not actively encourage flirting. But they should not actively downplay their attractiveness either, and should not be ashamed that others notice that attractiveness.

      I agree 100%. It’s a source of some satisfaction, at least for me, when other women are clearly impressed with my husband. I don’t need for him to flirt with them to get that message. The message is delivered by the women initially, he and I register it at the same time. His polite and engaging but non-sexual response is perfect. He and I both know a woman has found him attractive, public perception of our bond is strengthened – everyone wins, except perhaps the flirting floozie.

      By the way, I never flirt with any man besides my husband, except for my still charismatic Dad. I think any of our male friends would be horrified, frankly, and wouldn’t know what to make of it. I don’t run in circles where married people actively flirt with each other’s spouses. That’s a bit too Updike for us.

  • Anonymous

    And when the husband is the one who has been steadfastly faithful and never strung along other women and you find out that your wife has been having an emotional affair with the guy next door? Then you realize that you’ve been played for a chump because you ASSUMED she was playing it straight. Flirting is ABSOLUTELY necessary to make sure your wife is paying attention to you instead of taking you for granted.

    Hypergamy is real, whether you want to call it a Game tactic or not.

    Oh, and the end result of her flirting was that I shaped myself up after taking a look inward as well. How many women will look inward in my situation and work to improve themselves? How many women who have gained a few pounds will look in the mirror and say, “I’ve let myself go so no wonder he’s looking elsewhere?” Yes it hurts, but it’s also eye-opening. It works both ways.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anonymous

      And when the husband is the one who has been steadfastly faithful and never strung along other women and you find out that your wife has been having an emotional affair with the guy next door? Then you realize that you’ve been played for a chump because you ASSUMED she was playing it straight. Flirting is ABSOLUTELY necessary to make sure your wife is paying attention to you instead of taking you for granted.

      I would venture to say that nearly all happy and successful marriages exclude both flirting with others and taking one another for granted.

      Hypergamy is real, whether you want to call it a Game tactic or not.

      I never said it wasn’t real, though I don’t adhere to the PUA definition, which is not based on any kind of science, not even junk science. If men are being taken for granted in their relationships, they need to make changes, but flirting with other women to generate anxiety is not the way to go. I can assure you that women do not want to live their lives waiting and wondering if someone is going to steal their mate. Did you enjoy the feeling when your wife got emotionally involved with someone?

      As for people looking inward and improving themselves, that’s obviously preferable. If your wife doesn’t want to have sex with you, you can get to the bottom of that, or you can make her worry that you’re about to dump her for someone else. The former is inner game, the latter is Machiavellian trickery.

  • TGP

    Home run.

  • Maggie

    Very good advice. I remember reading back in the day that Sean Connery’s wife no. 2 went with him EVERYWHERE and wouldn’t let any women get close to him. She knew how devastatingly attractive he was to other women and wasn’t taking any chances. I’ve no idea if he would have cheated and they are still married so it must have worked, but how exhausting. No way I would want to live like that.

  • http://thegatewayboyfriend.blogspot.com Dan_Brodribb

    That was a touching article, Susan.

    I think there’s a world of difference between being your best physical, mental, and emotional self and playing games.

    Personally, I would rather be single than in a relationship where I am constantly uncertain as to where I stand so I wouldn’t fault any woman for feeling the same.

  • Passer_By

    There is a happy medium, though, is there not? A man doesn’t need to actively flirt, but I’m thinking he would be advised not to hide it if other women express attraction to him. In the past, if that happened with me – even though I didn’t do anything to encourage it or reciprocate, I would have never told my wife for fear of making her feel insecure or jealous. I’m thinking that was a mistake – working it in to conversation somehow might have gotten her all hot and lathered up.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      Yeah, I think I’d enjoy hearing about it if a woman at work flirted with my husband or expressed attraction. If I witnessed it and he flirted back, I’d probably be tempted to start checking his phone. What a burden! Actually, I know one young woman in particular who’s addicted to snooping. By carefully watching her boyfriend type his various passwords, she knows how to get into his facebook, gmail and phone. She finds just enough to keep her worried, and his innocence can never be proven, of course. Once a woman watches her husband seek attention from another woman, bam, it’s torture. But that is very different than learning that someone else wants him (and can’t have him.)

  • Jon

    There is a third possible reason that has nothing to do with power or dominance: He learned the hard way that all relationships (even marriage) must be viewed as temporary, and that it is prudent to maintain his skills and options just in case the relationship ends.

    IMO, one of the biggest mistakes anyone can make is to assume that marriage is a lifetime commitment.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jon

      He learned the hard way that all relationships (even marriage) must be viewed as temporary, and that it is prudent to maintain his skills and options just in case the relationship ends.

      That may be, but if so, then he is not a good candidate for an LTR. At least not for a woman who is looking for something permanent.

  • CEcil Henry

    This post is written only to address the females interest, and what’s important to the woman.

    No ability or attempt to understand the reason for this behavior nor why it is often effective.

    The hamster is running strong today.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cecil

      This post is written only to address the females interest, and what’s important to the woman.

      Hence why I started with:

      This is a post for my female readers.

      The behavior can be an effective tactic, but it comes at a very high price. If you make your wife feel threatened and humiliated, in danger of perhaps losing you, will she be desperate to hold on, maybe to have great sex in hopes of recapturing your interest? Yes, no doubt. But you’ve also broken something – trust, security, commitment. You’ve “juiced” the relationship at her expense. Whether there’ll be hell to pay for the guy at a later date will depend on the woman. But I can assure you she’ll be tormented by it, and it’s a very cruel thing to boost your own esteem at the expense of your partner’s.

      Not sure what you mean about the hamster – that refers to cognitive dissonance, and I don’t believe I fell into that trap here.

  • Mr. Hopeful Romantic

    If marriage isn’t a lifetime commitment, what is it?

    Marriage isn’t marriage if it isn’t for life.

  • deti

    Passer By:

    Yeah. A married man can’t help it if other women flirt with him. He just shouldn’t go out flirting himself or looking to prowl. And women just know when someone’s flirting with their husbands. Read Susan’s post at number 8.

    Mrs. deti: OMG that woman at the arts/crafts store was flirting with you.
    deti: “Huh?”
    Mrs. d: She was. Did you see that hair flip? She was laughing. She was chatting you up.
    deti: I was chatting her up too. I was trying to find out more about the stuff they sell at the store. Besides, she’s a saleslady.
    Mrs. d: So you were flirting? She is pretty, you know.
    deti: Just talking.
    Mrs. d: Well, she was flirting with you. Hmmmm.

  • M3

    I dunno. I agree with the basic premise of the point that instilling dread shouldn’t be required and is detrimental long run…

    but..

    i think not all women approach relationships the same way. i never flirted with women beyond acknowledging their smiles with a smile when i was married and i was hyper conscious of NOT checking out other girls, flattering girls, comparing girls, or any other form of competitive sexual behavior with any girl that was not my wife. i also made sure to tell her every day how i truly felt about her, how lucky i was to have someone as special as her and how much she meant to me.

    i am sure a shit ton of women on this board may find this ‘romantic’ or idealized.

    i am sure a great many other women, especially jizzabel women would find this NiceGuy(tm) supplicating puke.

    Some women are bred to be kept on their toes. Perhaps a corollary to the disposition of these women to be promiscuous, which makes them prime targets of the PUA community which can make the claim this technique is required and works well?

    I dunno, im not an evolutionary psychologist. I’m just a guy getting a divorce.

  • Maggie

    IMO, one of the biggest mistakes anyone can make is to assume that marriage is a lifetime commitment”

    Then why get married?

  • M3

    ” IMO, one of the biggest mistakes anyone can make is to assume that marriage is a lifetime commitment”

    Then why get married?”

    My impression is he’s not speaking for himself, but any possible partner who will become unhaaaaaapy and either file for divorce or drive him to divorce her.

    At least that’s how i read it.

  • Jon

    I kind of think anyone (woman or man) looking for something permanent is being naive.

    Like the author of soontobesinglemom.com said, “Diamonds are forever. Marriage isn’t.”

    Flirting while you’re in a relationship is a lot like having a savings account. You might never need to touch it, but if that rainy day ever happens, you’ll be glad you planned ahead.

  • deti

    As I consider this a little more:

    In a marriage or LTR, the only time “dread” can really be effective is if she has already done something to destabilize the marriage/LTR and the husband runs “dread” for a short time to bring order and balance back, to gain some hand. In fact, nothing other than “dread” or a little anxiety might bring it back from the abyss.

    Otherwise, “dread” as a long term game strategy for an LTR or marriage is death. She’ll be so stressed out she’ll hate him, and he’ll be so exhausted from running constant high level dread game that he doesn’t derive enjoyment from the relationship anymore.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      In a marriage or LTR, the only time “dread” can really be effective is if she has already done something to destabilize the marriage/LTR and the husband runs “dread” for a short time to bring order and balance back, to gain some hand.

      That makes sense. Not to hit below the belt, but honestly, in that case I totally understand instilling dread, in the form of an ultimatum, let’s say. My husband once told me, when I turned down sex too many times in a row, that he was not interested in remaining married to me unless I changed my attitude. Which I did, fast. Our trust was maintained, even though the relationship had been threatened. He could have gotten me back into bed by flirting with other women, certainly, but the trust would have been broken by the threat. The way he handled it, he was saying he wanted more of me, not someone else instead. It made all the difference.

  • Lokland

    My only opinon is that the number of women who can get men who are hot enough to flirt with other women on a regular basis are miniscule.

    Worry about the normal people more.

    As for flirting in a relationship, I’m split on the issue. As a guy its a really, really good thing.

    Similar situation to deti; two girls before my fiance. In a club and some random kissed me quickly. Pushed her away and had my world rocked that night better than any other with the current girl. Effective, very.

    As for the effects long-term, if shes gonna leave you cause you don’t flirt with every set of tits that walks by just go home fuck her and tell her you need to see other people.

  • Juiced

    After all of the blog posts about “Bad Boy vs. Nice Guy” and divorce rates and promiscuity, “trust, security, and commitment” is not the norm. Assuming TS&C in an LTR is ideal, but that level of comfort seems to quickly devolve into taking each other for granted. As soon as one of the partners decides he/she isn’t haaaapy, the other partner will be in for a rude awakening – either by discovering (or not!) an affair or divorce papers. Better to keep everyone on their toes, or don’t get married.

    As an analogy, I have a vendor who has been slowly increasing their prices and flaking on service. I just got out of a meeting (i.e. flirting) with another vendor who is more than eager to make me happy. Guess who’s in for the rude awakening?

    Now, if I was frequently meeting with new vendors and letting my current vendor know that I was doing so, I guarantee my service would continue to be excellent and my prices would be competitive. In deference to the relationship with my current vendor, I would stay with him. But I would continue to keep him on his toes.

    Now, it’s my fault that I let that vendor get bloated and lazy. I didn’t test the waters and keep abreast of the market. Same with flirting. Always know where you stand in the market and the best way to let your SO know is for him/her to see it happen. They will also make sure they are marketable.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Juiced

      Ouch. I’m all for looking at relationships through the lens of economics, but you’re comparing your marriage to a commercial supplier negotiation? One is a huge emotional investment, the other is not. So with the supplier, trust, empathy, loyalty, affection, love, etc. don’t come into play. And those are the things that should prevent you from humiliating, shaming and hurting your wife.

  • Jon

    And for everyone asking “If marriage isn’t a lifetime commitment, then why get married?” Give yourself a pat on the back!

    That is exactly the question we should be asking.

    BTW, M3 got it right.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jon

      And for everyone asking “If marriage isn’t a lifetime commitment, then why get married?” Give yourself a pat on the back!

      That is exactly the question we should be asking.

      This is not a post about the benefits of marriage. I’m addressing the ethics and wisdom of maintaining or generating attraction by making your partner, in either marriage or an LTR, suspicious and jealous. The marriage climate is irrelevant – this could apply to two college freshmen.

  • Juiced

    “Did you enjoy the feeling when your wife got emotionally involved with someone?”

    Of course not. But results are results. Having been the Beta guy with a ridiculous case of ONEitis, I’ve learned the lesson that doing everything right and treating a woman with TS&C is not the path to a happy marriage and faithfulness. It is the path to being a doormat.

    Perhaps if your mother (and don’t take this as a shot at her) had flirted with other guys and made her SMV known to your dad, would she have been sobbing and you have been worrying about divorce? Perhaps the problem is when one party is TS&C and the other is flirty. Either both should flirt or neither.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Juiced

      Having been the Beta guy with a ridiculous case of ONEitis, I’ve learned the lesson that doing everything right and treating a woman with TS&C is not the path to a happy marriage and faithfulness. It is the path to being a doormat.

      Ah. You’re thinking in binary terms here – oneitis or make her think you want other women, or that you could go have other women if you wanted. On a scale of 1 – 10, with 5 being the sweet spot for long-term happiness, oneitis is a 1 and flirting with other women is an 8.

      Perhaps the problem is when one party is TS&C and the other is flirty. Either both should flirt or neither.

      Wow. I can tell you that is not a way to behave as parents. Perhaps your next suggestion is for everyone to drop their keys into a bowl at the beginning of the party?

      I’m curious – did your wife start flirting with other men after you employed this tactic? Has that improved the quality of your relationship? It sounds like a sure-fire recipe for divorce to me.

  • H man

    One of my favorite “game” books (although it was written before “The Game”) states that passion is a combination of hope and doubt. What this says to me is that you need to been seen as special at some level to not be taken for granted and to get the tingles going. I agree the constant dread is not right as that’s too much doubt. A more civilized way would be showing the right mixture of Athol’s alpha and beta traits.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @H man

      One of my favorite “game” books (although it was written before “The Game”) states that passion is a combination of hope and doubt.

      I don’t agree with that. Mystery is an essential component of seduction, which is different. Certainly, the initial stages of attraction are filled with doubt, but we want to be put out of our misery as quickly as possible and know that our feelings are requited. I don’t even think it’s possible to have good sex with doubt. That’s one of the reasons casual sex is so poor most of the time – there’s often a doubt tape running through the heads of one or both parties.

      It’s one thing to know that your attractive husband would probably have some takers if you were hit by a bus. It’s another to watch him flirt at a gathering and wonder what’s in his head when he screws you that night.

      Women don’t like doubt of that kind.

  • Charm

    I’ve never been able to read the posts about dread. I couldnt even read that little snippet of it you used in the article. It makes me sick to my stomach. Physically ill. Its seems to be one of the most cruel things a person can do. This is why I think you should warn women about been so swooned by very extroverted charismatic overly flirty men. What do they think will happen once they get him in a relationship? The behavior probably wont stop.

    It seems that a lot of women are drawn to these guys for those very reasons and they want to parade them around and show them off but the other side to that is that he can probably get other women, and will probably continue to flirt with them. I don’t want a man like that. Charisma is attractive, so is a bit of extroversion, but I don’t like men that flirt with everyone. I dont like men that feel like they would need to to keep me interested. If someone tried to instill dread, Id dump them right then and there. Not to say a person should get complacent, but there is a very happy medium.

    Girls need to learn to pay some attention to the guys that are just outside the limelight.

  • VD

    Susan, I think you’re running the risk of looking at the drugs used in chemo, seeing that they’re toxic, and declaring they are uniformly bad for the human body. And yet, despite their admitted toxicity, they can have some distinct utility when an individual is being treated for cancer. Now, your father would appear to have instilled a surfeit of dread in your mother, but then, she clearly had no need of it. Since most PUA tactics are not designed for LTRs, they usually need to be modified and applied only as required in them. It should be fairly apparent that a woman who is uncertain by virtue of an occasional dose of dread is not a bored one prone to seeking an EPL divorce.

    Not all women need it. Some understand their husbands have options, some are perfectly content within the relationship as it is. But there are plenty of unhealthy relationships that could very well benefit from a round or two of relationship chemo.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      Since most PUA tactics are not designed for LTRs, they usually need to be modified and applied only as required in them.

      This is a sticking point for me. When your goal is to “get beautiful women into bed” (subtitle of Mystery Method, for those who don’t know) then PUA is obviously the shortest distance between two points. I’m not sure whether these tactics can be applied to LTRs, or whether they should be. The kind of emotional manipulation that instilling dread represents is conducive to a “quick fix” – there isn’t a foundation of trust and monogamy at risk.

      But there are plenty of unhealthy relationships that could very well benefit from a round or two of relationship chemo.

      I wrote this post in response to one I read about using these tactics in marriage. They may work, but as I said, the cost is very high. Just like chemo. You may kill the bad cells, but you also kill many of the good cells, blast the hell out of the immune system, and the patient can die from a common cold. This strategy is high risk, and in the context of marriage, low reward, IMO.

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    I have to agree with deti on this one: dread is a legitimate tool in a married man’s Game toolbox, but its use is recommended ONLY for certain specific instances (where divorce is already looming in the minds of one or the other, for instance).

    Gentlemen, there is a difference between using Dread (consider it the Abrams Tank of tools) to destabilize a long-term relationship that has settled into an impasse that cannot be broken otherwise, and using Preselection as a legitimate, delicately applied tool of buffing your SR relative to your SO. Women who read this might not understand the subtle distinction, and see ALL flirtations as real attempts to cheat, or at least disrespectful of the integrity of the relationship.

    But that ain’t necessarily so. Using gentle Preselection can be invaluable in maintaining a higher SR, but there’s an art to it. Openly flirting with women in front of your wife is NOT the way to do it. Casually mentioning that some woman asked for your phone number at the grocery store is more reasonable. Collecting other women’s phone numbers or email addresses might do wonders for your Confidence, but it’s going to slag your relationship by reducing her security in it dramatically.

    You have to understand the psychological element and the subtleties of using Preselection in Married Game. Your wife doesn’t have to feel directly threatened in order for the Preselection buff to be effective.

    For example, spending a “daddy/daughter” date that deliberately excludes your wife (as I recently did, here http://theredpillroom.blogspot.com/2012/02/anatomy-of-perfect-red-pill-date-phase.html) is a wonderfully wholesome way to both make your wife jealous to initiate the Preselection buff, and encourage that blind adoration of Daddy that will take years of therapy for your little girl to get through.

    Or, if you REALLY want to be a real bastard and have a lot of the benefits of Dread and Preselection without the danger of sexually humiliating your wife, take her sister — or, better yet — her MOTHER out some time. Just the two of you, lunch, coffee, shopping, dinner, whatever, on any old excuse, and be utterly charming to them. Flirt, laugh, sell them on the idea that you’re the perfect dude by gaming them gently, so that in the post-”date” discussion that inevitably happens your wife is confronted with women you know intimately who think you are a catch, and what’s her problem? That incites the basic competitiveness (oftentimes even more than with a non-related female) without endangering the integrity of the relationship.

    Are Preselection and Dread inherently manipulative? Perhaps. So is a low-cut blouse and a push-up demi-bra. So is a hair-toss. So is a shit-test. Women utilize the tools of their sexuality in a hundred different subconscious ways to gain advantage every day, and apart from a token protest by hardcore feminists, they accept it as a “feminine prerogative”, not “manipulation”. But instead of considering this similarly a “masculine prerogative”, consider it instead an “effective tool of marriage management”, understanding that if your wife thinks that no one else will want you, she’ll stop wanting you, too.

    Dread is a harsh tactic. Dread can be cruel. Like chemical weapons, Dread should only be employed when all other avenues fail.

    So how does Mrs. Ironwood deal with the fact that I regularly have to deal with over-sexed porn stars, nerd groupies, and general admirers who wouldn’t mind jumping my bones? She has two basic coping mechanisms.

    First, she knows that our relationship is solid enough to preclude any serious involvement without powerful warning signs far in advance, and that my constantly-affirmed commitment to my wife and children is not going to be swayed by a hair toss, big tits, or even aggressive, suggestive flirtation.

    Secondly, Mrs. Ironwood will not hesitate to cut a bitch.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ian Ironwood

      I like your style. Happy to cosign your entire comment.

      Just to be clear, there is nothing wrong with being attractive to women, and there is nothing wrong with your wife knowing that. In fact, there’s a lot that’s right about that. What is not OK, at least IMO, is using that leverage to threaten the security and trust in the relationship by knocking her off balance.

      Once at Back to School night, a woman came up to me and said, “Oh, your husband is sooooo attractive!” I loved it, I grinned from ear to ear. And of course I told him on the way home. He was tickled. Then I said, “I gave you this information, but you’d better not use it!” He laughed and said, “I promise.” I don’t recall, but I’m sure we had good sex that night. Had he flirted with some other third grade mom, I would have been mortified. And not feeling at all sexy, I can assure you.

  • Wudang

    I am highly against instilling dread in the sense that Roissy preached. I am also against a man actively and purposefully and blatantly flirting strongly with other women in front of his wife. That is unless the relationship is in full crisis and the man must really fight to regain her interest. I am, however, not against the type of generic general flirting that I feel is becoming part of my personality even when in a marriage. That would draw more interest than being clearly asexual but it would not draw the same type of interest as when I really flirt go get things going with a woman and have the intent of something actually happening. It is more about haveing a generally cocky funny attitude and being teasing with people all arround. It would be much the same with people I did not find sexually appealing.

    I also have huge problems bying that women will actually honour their part of an understanding not to flirt with other people or to create jealousy. Not all women are the same. Some will frequently, blatantly and conciously flirt with others to create jealousy. Others will only do it sometimes and some very rarly but if you ask me how many women will do it during the course of a marriage I would say 95%+. This is such a core part of girl game and is one thing I saw women doing all the time even before taking the red pill. Even then while I was still very naive about women my observation was that creating jealousy was just something that women did. I don`t, at all, buy that it is only a matter of selection bias when PUAs regard inspiring jealousy in her man as being such an ingrained part of womens natural girl game that it is naive to think you can find a woman who never will. My observation is that all sorts of good girls will do this. I have a lot of faith that I can find a very good woman that will behave well in a relationship but I will never believe that I will find one that will not try to make me jealous.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang

      I have a lot of faith that I can find a very good woman that will behave well in a relationship but I will never believe that I will find one that will not try to make me jealous.

      They’re idiots then, because everything I’ve read about jealousy says that men hate, hate, hate it. They’ll end a relationship rather than feel jealous. In fact, jealousy is thought to have evolved as an emotion to prevent cuckoldry. A male’s jealousy is likely to inhibit adulterous behavior, or so the theory goes.

      I should write a post about how trying to make a man jealous will backfire every single time. I’ve never seen a woman get a man this way for anything but a short, drama-filled reunion or makeup sex. It’s very corrosive.

      Which is really the point of the post – jealousy corrodes, it kills love.

  • H man

    Wudang,
    You’re right about married women flirting. I’ve flirted with married women at night clubs when they’re having a girls night out. Not because she or I were trying to start anything but just to have fun and to make another person feel good about themselves. Women and the men they flirt with generally are just smarter about not doing it in front of their husbands.

  • Wudang

    H man, yes that is extremely frequent. To clarify what I believe close to all women do to some extent is to create jealousy in their husbands. They don`t necessarily flirt but will be sure to drop small hints that will make their man jealous or set themselves up to be flirted with in order to make him jealous. I believe women do this way, way, way more than men.

  • Ramble

    I never flirt with any man besides my husband, except for my still charismatic Dad.

    You flirt with your dad?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      You flirt with your dad?

      Not inappropriately. But I think he’s charming, I flatter him, I do nice things for him. I beg him to tell all the old stories for my kids. He feels like the king of the castle, basically. It’s a father-daughter thing.

  • Sassy6519

    This issue is a toss up for me. Do I want to date a guy that actively flirts with other women on purpose? No. Do I want a guy that other women are attracted to? Yes.

    It’s strange, but watching other women stare down my man or giving me props for dating a man doesn’t bother me. It’s just further evidence that I got a catch.

    I think there is a line that can be overstepped when it comes to flirting though.

  • Juiced

    Ultimatums are one way. Your reaction would be ideal for most. However, with every ultimatum, there is an alternative. That being the wife decides instead of working on it to just give up. She gets a divorce lawyer, takes the kids, the majority of your assets, and a steady stream of “child support” on the grounds that “he wants to leave me anyway.” Very black and white. Depending on the day, month, year, lunar phase, either choice is viable.

    I’ll take grey area of flirting and see if I can coax her back while getting myself better put together and building my confidence. Thanks Athol and MMSL.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Juiced

      I’ll take grey area of flirting and see if I can coax her back while getting myself better put together and building my confidence. Thanks Athol and MMSL.

      Far be it from me to go against Athol. I don’t think I have, at least not in spirit. I do allow that a different strategy is called for when a woman appears to have lost interest. That’s repair, not prevention, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying, “If you don’t appreciate me, there are other women who will.” That’s quite a bit different than keeping your loving wife on her toes by constantly confirming your sexual market value in her presence.

  • Juiced

    I think you’re playing the Disney card on marriage. Like I mentioned before, frivolous divorce, “Nice Guy vs. Bad Boy”, and promiscuity have pretty much negated the belief that “happily ever after” exists. I’d love to be able to say that “True love conquers all.” But that would be waaaay too Beta.

    Susan, you sound like a sweet and loving woman and I think your man is lucky to have you. But, frankly, NAWALT.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “This is not a post about the benefits of marriage. I’m addressing the ethics and wisdom of maintaining or generating attraction by making your partner”

    You mean a comment thread has started to off on a tanget? Perish the thought. :)

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    @Juiced

    The Disney version may not exist in this reality, but there are some well-negotiated, fairly solid “happily ever afters” out there in Red Pill land. It’s not so much that “true love conquered all” but “damn it, we’re going to make this work because do you SEE all the losers in the dating pool out there?”

  • Juiced

    “I’m curious – did your wife start flirting with other men after you employed this tactic? Has that improved the quality of your relationship? It sounds like a sure-fire recipe for divorce to me.”

    No, I bumped back hard on her paramour and another Beta orbiter I found out about who’s been feeding her poison. She is significantly more attentive to me. She’s a little more fiery, too. But I feel a hell of a lot better. The confidence gained from other women’s attention has helped me to bump back on her as well. That confidence has improved her view of me. Flirting isn’t all about the woman.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Juiced

      No, I bumped back hard on her paramour and another Beta orbiter I found out about who’s been feeding her poison. She is significantly more attentive to me. She’s a little more fiery, too. But I feel a hell of a lot better. The confidence gained from other women’s attention has helped me to bump back on her as well. That confidence has improved her view of me. Flirting isn’t all about the woman.

      I have to say, that does sound well played. I got a tingle just reading it. Good for you, MMSL FTW.

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    @Susan

    It’s one thing to know that your attractive husband would probably have some takers if you were hit by a bus. It’s another to watch him flirt at a gathering and wonder what’s in his head when he screws you that night.

    Women don’t like doubt of that kind.

    Susan, I suppose from the Game perspective, giving women what they “like” seems a sure way towards disaster, so this becomes less important. Yes, women don’t “like” the insecurity of thinking about their men with other women (although fantasizing about being with celebrities or fictional characters is apparently just okey-dokey for ladies). That doesn’t mean it isn’t good for them or the relationship, if done well. I love my wife dearly, and I know she doesn’t like even a hint of “doubt”. But my Blue Pill years fed her plenty of “he loves me without any doubt” times that were pure hell for me. When a wife has no doubt, she has no motivation for keeping her own Game sharp. When she knows that Hubby is always going to be there, at a deep psychological level, he stops becoming a partner and starts becoming an appliance.

    I get that women don’t like Dread and doubt. We don’t like flirting, sex strikes or being taken for granted. Only in a marriage where the latter was an issue would the former be a proper response. And only after communicating “Hey, you aren’t paying me enough attention and I’m about to throw a hissy fit” and not getting a response would it even be advisable to suggest.

    And please don’t tell me that most of the wives in hypergamy mode aren’t filling their own heads with doubts about their husbands. “He’s the only one for me . . . until a better one comes along” has been the secret mantra of some women since adolescence, and even if they fake it well for years when the opportunity arises, their doubts get hamster-spun into glaring and obvious reasons why He Was All Wrong From The Start.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ian Ironwood

      Please know that I am in no way defending bitchy, harpy wives who frivolously divorce their loyal husbands. I’m not one, and I don’t think I have any among my readers, so I tend not to write for them. I do address things like female narcissism though – anything that I think is happening in the SMP among my readership.

      My point about dread and doubt is that it’s very damaging. It’s negative energy rather than positive energy. It’s fear and threat rather than contentment. IDK, maybe when there’s already enormous negative energy, instilling dread is the lesser of two evils. I’d be interested to hear what a couples therapist would say about that. (Stuart Schneiderman, our resident shrink, weighed in early in favor of the post, YMMV.)

  • deti

    “in that case I totally understand instilling dread, in the form of an ultimatum, let’s say.”

    Sometimes ultimatums have to be presented in a marriage. “If you do X, then Y will happen.”

    Not it might or could happen. It WILL happen.

    When order is restored and things are brought back to right relationship, dread goes back in the toolbox.

  • Juiced

    “…there are some well-negotiated, fairly solid “happily ever afters” out there in Red Pill land.”

    I agree. But you have to take the Red Pill first. And based on the ILYBINILWY knife in the Beta’s back, it’s clear that the Beta’s idea of “trust, empathy, loyalty, affection, love, etc.” is not all you need for a happy marriage. Dread is not the humiliation, shaming, and hurting that your mother went through. It is the realization that she has something she should cherish (because others will) but does not and is in danger of losing it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Juiced

      Dread is not the humiliation, shaming, and hurting that your mother went through. It is the realization that she has something she should cherish (because others will) but does not and is in danger of losing it.

      I’m not familiar with Athol’s take on Dread. I am familiar with Roissy’s advocacy of it in general, and Rollo’s advocacy of it in marriage. The way I’ve read about it there, there is very much a desire to create suspicion and jealousy to increase your perceived value in the woman’s eyes. Not your real value, but your perceived value.

  • Jonny

    @Susan: If the example you gave is the worst, then I fail to see how your father is overly flirtatious. He sounds like a great guy. Most guys like him attract a lot of attention from both men and women. That he has sexual appeal to women might be a side effect. Like another person said indirectly, the example isn’t showing him stringing along women. You have to provide a bit more context. Otherwise I’m not buying it especially with the story of your father being dragged into dancing with a woman. Huh?

    Is talking with women and dancing with them crossing the line? Maybe your mother is a fragile, sensitive person. Nonetheless, your parents divorced. It sounds like they are not the most compatible couple.

    I don’t usually go to parties much. Parties are much more fun without a spouse in the same room since it is usually the occasion to meet new people or catch up with old friends. What’s the point in going with a wife who might not like the company of strangers. Either you will get in trouble or the wife will get insecure.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jonny

      If the example you gave is the worst, then I fail to see how your father is overly flirtatious. He sounds like a great guy. Most guys like him attract a lot of attention from both men and women

      He is a great guy! He’s an amazing grandfather, by far the grandparent my kids feel closest to.

      That he has sexual appeal to women might be a side effect. Like another person said indirectly, the example isn’t showing him stringing along women.

      He didn’t string anyone along – no one was invested – but he was extremely attentive and responsive to other women, to the point that my mother watched him soak up all the oxygen in the room at every party. She never had her husband by her side, and he was more likely to be dancing with someone else’s wife than his own. All I can say is that at 10 I knew there was something very wrong at home, and my father was the one stepping out.

      Maybe your mother is a fragile, sensitive person. Nonetheless, your parents divorced. It sounds like they are not the most compatible couple.

      They didn’t divorce, actually. They stayed together, and became quite sweet together as they aged.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I think about this from the perspective of having dread/uncertainty/hope/anxiety about this pregnancy, and I do wish very much that I knew for sure everything is okay, the baby is healthy and will be with us and grow up to be a healthy adult.

    So no dread for me from my husband is very nice.

  • Emily

    Preselection is one thing, but I think that maintaining a constant state of “dread” in a relationship is only going to work on the wrong types of girl:
    * Girls with low self-esteem
    * Girls who love drama

    I can MAYBE understand it as a temporary relationship repair tactic, but it’s not something that I could endure for an extended period of time.

    Also: There’s a huge difference between being charming vs. hitting on a bunch of women. I like Ironwood’s suggestion of gaining preselection by just being generally charming to everybody. (Plus the daddy/daughter date is adorable!)

  • Herb

    There is a third possible reason that has nothing to do with power or dominance: He learned the hard way that all relationships (even marriage) must be viewed as temporary, and that it is prudent to maintain his skills and options just in case the relationship ends.

    IMO, one of the biggest mistakes anyone can make is to assume that marriage is a lifetime commitment.

    Jon has it…at some point she’s going to get a shot at something better and trade up. Why wait until she’s ready to dump you to make sure your networking skills are up to date.

    I love my job. I would be happy to stay here until retirement. Yet, I update my resume monthly, have an active Dice profile, and take recruiter’s calls. Why? In 2002, 2009, and 2010 I was laid off.

    In 1999 (from a marriage in 1991 and first meeting in 1987), 2001, and 2011 I was dumped.

    There must always be a winner and a loser. That is a very poor paradigm for a successful relationship.

    It might be a poor paradigm for a successful relationship but like it or not it is the common paradigm in the modern SMP, both for young people and for the divorced (willing or not).

    In a world of every man for himself trust comes with verify. That’s all this is.

    As for how women feel, well they broke the damn thing. They can explain the hurt to their daughters.
    In neither environment will I be unprepared again.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      In a world of every man for himself trust comes with verify. That’s all this is.

      Hmmm, I don’t see how this is trust but verify. Seems to me this is stoke the distrust, cultivate uncertainty. It’s the inverse of trust but verify.

  • Charm

    This issue is a toss up for me. Do I want to date a guy that actively flirts with other women on purpose? No. Do I want a guy that other women are attracted to? Yes.

    I would have said no to both.

    What I dont get is why you need for other women to find him attractive as well?

  • Passer_By

    @charm
    “What I dont get is why you need for other women to find him attractive as well?”

    Attraction is not a conscious choice. This preselection works on nearly all women (I’ll allow for some outliers) at some level deep in their hindbrains, and is very powerful.

  • OffTheCuff

    You’ll have to really define flirting. You see, to a beta blue-bill guy, making any kind of fun small talk to a women at all feels like “flirting”. Remember, to a risk-averse guy, the only 100% safe plan is No Contact With The Opposite Sex. And that total-safety policy, overplayed, can easily turn a man into a sexless doormat.

    There’s a big difference between confidently teasing a cute waitress vs. doing a slow-dance grind with your neighbor, while your wife cries.

    This reminds me of an old episode of “Home Improvement” where Tim Taylor does his charming shtick in front of a group of his wife’s friends, in a fun, *flirty* way. All the women are enthralled, while Patti basks in the glory. When they all leave, she practically mauls him because of the show he put on.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      You’ll have to really define flirting. You see, to a beta blue-bill guy, making any kind of fun small talk to a women at all feels like “flirting”.

      For the purposes of this post, it’s any activity with the opposite sex specifically undertaken with the objective of making your wife feel uncertain, suspicious or jealous. Anxiety is the goal. Fun small talk doesn’t come anywhere near the threshold.

  • Rum

    Feeling some degree of dread is impossible to avoid for any woman in a relationship with a guy that she can truly value. Sometimes it hurts to be alive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      Feeling some degree of dread is impossible to avoid for any woman in a relationship with a guy that she can truly value.

      That has not been my experience, as my husband’s love is unconditional and his value is unquestioned in my eyes.

  • Herb

    @charm: Physically ill. Its seems to be one of the most cruel things a person can do.

    If you think that is one of the most cruel things you can do, head to Navy legal at a major base the week after a battle group comes back from deployment. I assure you there will be several men who came home to an empty house, missing wife and kids, an empty bank account, and divorce papers.

    But no, flirting with another woman in front of your wife is the cruellest thing anyone can do.

    Or perhaps you might talk to a guy who, as part of the break-up, is informed of the “mass of cells” she had “sucked into a sink”.

    But no, flirting with another woman in front of your wife is the cruellest thing anyone can do.

    I’ll admit it’s cruel. And despite my comments about keeping your skills up I don’t see the utility of doing it to keep someone or doing it in front of them to keep them, but it’s far from the cruellest thing. Saying it displays the total lack of empathy that seems to characterise more and more women (and now, sadly, more and more men).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      Saying it displays the total lack of empathy that seems to characterise more and more women (and now, sadly, more and more men).

      That’s not fair to Charm. She’s a young woman, she knows nothing of unfaithful military wives or surprise abortions. Please keep in mind that many of the women here are in their early 20s, recently out of college. In her experience, the kind of injury described in this post might be the cruelest thing.

  • Juiced

    If I had paid more attention to her and myself, she wouldn’t have had an EA (I’m Anonymous from post #2 – just figured I’d pick a name). And if she was more intimate, I wouldn’t need to flirt either. I understand my guilt in this also and I understand why she did what she did.

    Flirting keeps both people honest. And (again in deference to Athol) I advise flirting in the open rather than behind backs. The shock of an EA (basically, covert flirting) was enormous. If it had been a little more obvious, my change would have been more gradual and we could have confronted issues before they became too serious. But perhaps I would not have taken the Red Pill, either.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Charm

    What I dont get is why you need for other women to find him attractive as well?

    It’s hard to explain. I wouldn’t say that I need it to be that way, but it’s an added bonus in my eyes.

    I’ll give you an example. With my last boyfriend, I invited him to come hang out with some of my coworkers and I after work one day. When he showed up, every single one of my female coworkers about broke their necks to look at him. He came in, gave me a quick kiss, then went to the bar to buy us both drinks. While he was away, all of them told me how hot they thought he was. I was given a few thumbs up and also a few high fives. He never flirted with any of them, but he engaged in friendly dialogue with them. I’m not going to lie by admitting that I was turned on even more by him after that encounter.

    I can’t really put into words why it turned me on. It just did. I think on some level, everyone wants to know that they have an objectively attractive/valuable partner. Preselection, to a certain extent, does turn women on.

  • Passer_By

    Yeah, what OTC said. As a natural introvert, I would consider any any sort of interaction that stimulates female interest to be a form of flirting.

    I will say that, my wife and I were at a party several months ago, as it turned out, she was seated at one end of the table, while I was at the other end talking to another woman. For whatever reason, I was a little more talkative and charming than I usually am (which is a fairly low bar), and, apparently, she was really responding. I asked my wife when we got home if she had a good time, and she said something like “Promise you won’t be mad?” I said “I won’t be mad”, and she said she was getting jealous of our interactions. I teased her a bit, assured her she was the only one for me, and then had some of the best sex of the year (and that’s a pretty high bar, because my wife is pretty much always DTF).

  • Passer_By

    But, notwithstanding what I said above, I would never want to keep her in that state of discomfort on a constant basis. I’m not interested in making somebody I love perpetually unhappy, even if it raises my stature in her eyes. I suppose once in blue moon might have some value, but there are probably other ways to accomplish the same end. On the other hand, I know for a fact that other women have told her they think I’m attractive, but I don’t think it had quite the same effect as watching one interact with me.

  • Juiced

    “I’m not familiar with Athol’s take on Dread.”

    Athol calls it flirting, and it’s fairly innocent. I’m not grinding on other women, but I am making pointed eye contact and extended conversation. I am consciously looking for and seeking IOI’s (because I know she is, too). And I talk to everyone. Cute waitress, her mommy friends, girl on line at Dunkin’ Donuts, etc. Frankly, a lot of it is just practice and gets used extensively with her. My conversational skills have improved immensely.

  • Rob

    I know that your post is aimed at women, but it only reaffirms exactly what’s always been said by PUA’s. One of the last sentences in your piece establishes precisely why this technique works; furthermore, you’re actually affirming its effectiveness. To wit: “If your husband suddenly starts flirting with other women, address it immediately. Figure out where his fear and insecurity lies, and rush to reassure him in every way you can.”

    “…and rush to reassure him in every way you can.”

    Somewhere Roissy and Roosh just smiled. Your whole piece ends up with advice affirming the theory.

    Understand something: the PUA websites are demonstrating by and large how to emulate alpha male behavior in order to increase the chances of successfully mating with high value women. Alphas naturally get the attention of other women, and their mates already know this… thus constantly dreading “the other woman.” It’s the price you’ll naturally pay for mating with an alpha (of either gender, by the way). PUA’s are simply teaching the emulation of a natural behavior that will occur whether you want it to or not. As has been said before, “the God of biomechanics is very cruel.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rob

      I know that your post is aimed at women, but it only reaffirms exactly what’s always been said by PUA’s. One of the last sentences in your piece establishes precisely why this technique works; furthermore, you’re actually affirming its effectiveness. To wit: “If your husband suddenly starts flirting with other women, address it immediately. Figure out where his fear and insecurity lies, and rush to reassure him in every way you can.”

      I think you’ve got that backwards. I’m talking about an insecure male who needs affirmation from a variety of women to feel worthy of one. Or an asshole, take your pick. If I suddenly observed my husband flirting with other women, I would know something was up. I know he’s not an asshole, so I’d assume something had really thrown him for a loop to make him act out that way.

      A man who flirts with other women to prove his value in his wife’s eyes is a man of low value. It’s a massive DLV, and that’s the irony. The true alpha has the self-discipline and honor to be gracious, but not flirtatious. His wife is well aware of his attractiveness to others, and grateful that he does not exploit it to make her anxious.

  • (r)Evoluzione

    Susan, your post, and some of your subsequent responses, are dripping with insecurity. For example, the bit about having to check your husband’s phone. Wow. So very insecure. Even worse, in the original post, there’s the emotionally riven tone in describing your mother & father’s relationship–that’s at the heart of it anyway.

    For women, the utmost in self-confidence is for a women to know you have such a lock on your man’s heart and loins, that any flirting that a woman observes towards or by her man is merely entertaining, and possibly validating. But women of that type of self confidence need no validation.

    But I do agree that men do need to keep things respectful in the relationship; there’s no need (in a healthy relationship) for a man to continually throw his attractiveness to other women in his partner’s face. That’s just a bit uncouth.

    The key, as Deti’s example so beautifully illustrates, is that the man’s return-fire (non)-flirting must be so subtle as to be plausibly deniable. He wasn’t flirting… he was just trying to see what else was in the store. It’s simply an ability and willingness to engage in friendly, harmless and nonsexual banter. Sexual vibes, innuendoes, and eye-fucking is where the line gets crossed. I dare say that a man must walk right up to that line in order to define it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dr. (r)Evoluzione

      Susan, your post, and some of your subsequent responses, are dripping with insecurity. For example, the bit about having to check your husband’s phone. Wow. So very insecure.

      Nope, not even close. I am 100% secure in my marriage. If my husband started flirting and seeking female attention outside our relationship I would know something was up. It wouldn’t be insecure in the sense that I would be imagining offense where there was none. I’d know our marriage was in trouble.

      It’s simply an ability and willingness to engage in friendly, harmless and nonsexual banter. Sexual vibes, innuendoes, and eye-fucking is where the line gets crossed. I dare say that a man must walk right up to that line in order to define it.

      Disagree. I daresay a loving husband should avoid crossing the line that threatens his wife – and it’s his job to know exactly where that line is.

  • deti

    Charm: What I dont get is why you need for other women to find him attractive as well?

    Sassy: It’s hard to explain …it’s an added bonus in my eyes.

    deti: because Sassy, like most women, does not want to put her eggs (so to speak) in the basket of a man who’s not all that desirable. Sassy’s essentially saying, “if no one else wants him, then why should I want him?”

    The fact that Sassy’s man is attractive to other women bumps up Sassy’s value as well — or at least affirms that Sassy is not low value.

  • http://flyfreshandyoung.wordpress.com FFY

    Your entire post comes from the angle of a woman who is already very happy in her relationship and only has eyes for her man and thinks he’s the cat’s own ass. In this instance, yes, when your man flirts with other chicks and whatnot, it can lead to much anger, feelings of rejection, etc… My ex went through that thanks to my drunken antics.

    However, these things can do wonders for a man who is in a flagging relationship with a girl who is losing interest by the day. I’ve seen it with my own eyes with non-player friends who all the sudden started getting attention from other girls. Their girlfriend’s behavior changes remarkably, and remarkably fast.

    Also, let’s take a moment to reframe “instilling dread”. In true Roissy fashion, it is a bit over the top. If you instead conceptualize it as one way of “raising your attractiveness through building preselection” it removes the blinders “instilling dread” raises. In this case, suddenly raising your SMP value will cause a girl that loves you to become incredibly distressed and can harm the relationship, while it can cause a girl who is losing interest in you to suddenly begin to re-evaluate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      . If you instead conceptualize it as one way of “raising your attractiveness through building preselection”

      That happens when women are attentive to the male. No response from him is needed to convey preselection.

  • Odds

    I get that this post is for women, but at the same time, it seems clear it’s intended as an admonishment for us menfolk as well. So, I’m going to flip the script here…

    “There is no better feeling than knowing that the love of your woman is secure, that you have taken her off the market and satisfied her.”

    But, therein lies the rub. How to truly take a woman off the market? How to absolutely inspire such devotion that one can actually live without fear that she’ll leave?

    I can’t endorse dread in the long term, just because I haven’t tried it that way. If we set aside basic human decency for a bit, I can absolutely endorse dread in the short term – since I’m still working on that proper alpha/beta balance, I’ve tried the overblown alpha routine before, and never have I been on the receiving end of so much affection and devotion (and hot sex). But, in that instance, I already had checked out and assumed the girl wouldn’t be with me a full month. I only even bothered dating her to practice newly-discovered game (in case you’re curious, I couldn’t keep up the “she doesn’t matter” act for more than two weeks, started treating her much better, beta-ized, and got a knife firmly planted in my back – whether from the betaness, the earlier dread, or a combination of the two, who could say).

    As an aside, that’s going to be a real hump for a lot of women to climb if they don’t want to deal with relationship dread – namely, it works in the short term, whatever the moral or long-term practical implications are. If a girl isn’t giving a guy what he wants in a relationship, and he instills dread (flirting with other women, that sort of thing), it will work in the short term, and he will feel validated in his actions. If she gets complacent when she doesn’t fear losing him, he’ll notice that too. Girls reading this site would do well to try to actively work against their own instincts and reward the hell out of anything he does to demonstrate security and comfort.

    For the long term, I don’t know what to recommend. I’m deeply reluctant to deliberately hurt someone, even someone I barely know and don’t much care about, and can only overcome that reluctance for a short time – it just seems so wrong to me. But, on the other hand, what experience I do have (and what I’ve observed in others) tells me very clearly that most women don’t respond positively to a guy who clearly respects the boundaries of monogamy (in spirit and in letter). I like the earlier suggestions to use dread surgically, in short bursts and in response to specific needs, but I doubt I could find the heart to pull it off.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Odds

      I get that this post is for women, but at the same time, it seems clear it’s intended as an admonishment for us menfolk as well.

      No, it’s not. That’s why, for the first time in three years, I was explicit at the top of the post. Men are free to do what they will. My job is to tell women that a man engaging in this dread tactic are displaying low relationship fitness.

      As an aside, that’s going to be a real hump for a lot of women to climb if they don’t want to deal with relationship dread – namely, it works in the short term, whatever the moral or long-term practical implications are. If a girl isn’t giving a guy what he wants in a relationship, and he instills dread (flirting with other women, that sort of thing), it will work in the short term, and he will feel validated in his actions.

      Right, which is why I advising women not to provide any positive reinforcement for it. Be the woman it doesn’t work for. Because if it works, and you stick around, you’ve got a pretty tense relationship with a lot of angst.

      Again, though, I would state that the strategy of instilling dread is not only advised for men not getting what they want in their relationships. It’s advised as a preemptive strike – the way to keep her hot for you and knowing that you’ll be “balls deep in pussy” if you leave her, as Rollo so elegantly put it.

      Girls reading this site would do well to try to actively work against their own instincts and reward the hell out of anything he does to demonstrate security and comfort.

      Agreed.

  • deti

    “I like the earlier suggestions to use dread surgically, in short bursts and in response to specific needs, but I doubt I could find the heart to pull it off.”

    Believe me: You can do it if you’re married, you’re up against the wall, and you have no other choice.

    .

  • Odds

    Another thought re: women here saying that they don’t like dread.

    I think most guys believe that you believe this – but us beta men usually spent a lot of years being burned by believing women who said, “I just want a nice guy.” The thought that “dread is bad” is awfully similar. Most of us are not really willing to take that on faith. I get that Charm or Hope say they don’t like it, and again, I believe that they believe it. But without something concrete, I don’t think that’s going to convince anyone. Susan’s story about her mother crying, for instance, is a good example of why dread doesn’t work (at least in the long term), and a good argument for a more secure style of relationships.

    Even then, folks like Rob and FFY point out, the girls here aren’t most girls. At the very least, they’re all a lot more aware of how stuff works, and with that comes some ability to change it (at least a little). That still leaves open a vast, vast world of girls who are unaware that they’re mostly operating on loin-based instincts and rationalizing the results. Most of our dating pool is drawn from that group there, and guys need practical solutions for them.

    I’ll happily endorse anything that makes a girlfriend happier and/or eliminates sources of anxiety and unhappiness, but only on the condition that it actually maintains and/or strengthens the relationship. My personal discomfort with it aside, I’m on the fence about dread (especially considering more mild forms like being generally flirty and charming).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My personal discomfort with it aside, I’m on the fence about dread (especially considering more mild forms like being generally flirty and charming).

      It makes no sense to define “instilling dread” as being charming.

      adjective: dreadful, terrible, frightful, horrible, horrid, awful, ghastly, dire, fearful, tremendous, gruesome

      Nothing, nothing, charming and innocently flirty about that.

  • Days of Broken Arrows

    Did you parents stay together, like Bill and Hillary? If so, that undercuts the whole point of your post. You’re missing the obvious” this concept works.

    I’ll reserve judgement until I hear whether your folks stayed together. If so, this falls under the category of “Don’t listen to what women say, watch what they do.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @DBA

      Did you parents stay together, like Bill and Hillary? If so, that undercuts the whole point of your post. You’re missing the obvious” this concept works.

      I’ll reserve judgement until I hear whether your folks stayed together. If so, this falls under the category of “Don’t listen to what women say, watch what they do.”

      They stayed together for a variety of reasons. My brothers and I grew up in a home fraught with tension and angst. I can assure you that this technique did not “work” to raise my father’s value in my mother’s eyes, which is the point of the tactic. It made her feel disrespected, unloved and ashamed. Even as a child I understood why she felt that way. I was embarrassed by my father’s behavior. I was embarrassed for the women who flirted with him. It was dishonorable and unseemly. It was behavior to breed hatred rather than love.

  • GudEnuf

    Can somebody clue me in on what exactly “flirting” is in this context?

    A woman once accused of being on “flirt mode 24/7″. She insisted that I had mislead her into believing I was interested, and that since I’m always flirting with every woman I am a serial trickster. My girlfriend at the time agreed. She knew it wasn’t intention, but she said that my personality could be misinterpreted as flirting. She said she was okay with it but it did make her feel jealous sometimes. So we had a talk about it and eventually I agreed to compliment her more. (I used to think that expressing sexual desire for your gf was a dlv but that is not true.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      In this context, flirting is engaging in banter with a member of the opposite sex with the express intent of creating sexual tension that your partner can witness and feel threatened by. The goal is to foster doubt, insecurity and fear.

  • Soga

    Susan, I’m willing to concede that men should not use this trick to “juice” their relationship, but it should also be pointed out that women should also be expected to keep their hypergamy reined in when they’re in a monogamous relationship, especially (and ESPECIALLY!) a marriage. Men and women, in a marriage, should love each other to the point that they both agree that divorce (for reasons other than marital unfaithfulness, aka adultery) is not only immoral but also personally unthinkable.

    Just as women should not use divorce as a threat, so men likewise should not use their extramarital charm as a weapon.

    How’s this for a thought experiment? What if we outlawed no-faults divorce… would the rate of male extramarital flirting go up or down? I’d imagine down, unless women found some other way to weaponize their side of the marriage (e.g. withdrawing sex).

    The bottom line is: in a marriage, a woman should give herself fully to her man, and the man ought to take care of her likewise. That means women, don’t deny your husbands sex. Men, don’t get bored and settle into simply going through the motions of the relationship (do keep in mind that a woman who gladly gives herself sexually to her man drastically decreases the risk he will go through the motions).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Soga

      I have no problem with what you propose. I am on record as stating that barring illness, a wife should never deny her husband sex. That’s actually a fair equivalent to his not encouraging the attention of other women.

  • Michael of Charlotte

    Fine advice for women, I guess. But from my perspective, I literally cannot remember the last time a woman did not use Position of Least Interest on me. I’m thinking it’s more like dread towards men, not from us.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I literally cannot remember the last time a woman did not use Position of Least Interest on me. I’m thinking it’s more like dread towards men, not from us.

      I can’t remember the last time I heard about a new relationship where both parties were not vying for the PLI. It’s extremely adversarial, it makes dating a zero sum game. Using dread as a strategy to increase one’s hand in the relationship, is also an adversarial rather than cooperative tactic.

      FWIW, women can and do use dread, though I haven’t seen any female bloggers promoting it. I don’t condone it for either sex.

  • J

    Dread and aloofness as tactics would backfire in my marriage. There’s enough misery in the outside world. Why invite it into your home?

  • J

    @SW–A very gutsy, self-revelatory post. One of your best!

    You raise an interesting point about the Clintons….she was clearly humiliated in the most public way. I honestly can’t imagine how she stood it

    She stood it because she wanted to be the first woman president. No price too great apparently. Lack of sexual excess on her part aside, I regard her as the biggest whore in the world.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Lack of sexual excess on her part aside, I regard her as the biggest whore in the world.

      Well said. I despise her too.

  • Charm

    @Herb

    Your point is valid. I do agree. Anything that is done to a person and is completely unwarrented by them is cruel. Ive heard the
    military stories too. Its horrific but so is dread especially when used on a person that loves and doesny take you for granted. The way ive read some pua’s talking about it is disgusting. Its a shame what people will do to others just to maintain control over another person.

    @sassy and deti

    I think Im trying to apply logic to it so maybe thats the problem. The explaination for it makes sense I guess, but I dont like the idea of rely on other women to give you the green light. Also I dont care about looks nearly as much as other people seem and they fall absolutely last on my “list”. Other peoples opinions are too subjective for my objective taste. I wouldnt be able to trust them. If I like someone then I just go with it. Hell other people could dislike him and I wouldnt mind.

    I know you said it was an added perk but the crazy part is think of how many men get dumped because a girls friends werent “impressed”. Sure theres a line though.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    “The Ballad of Ian Ironwood” (to the tune of “The Ballad of Jed Clampett”, commonly known as the “Beverly Hillbillies” tune)

    Come and listen to my story of Ian Ironwood
    simple country boy, really has it good
    tho’ he’s married he gets putang
    up the ass
    a first rate stud, he’s the best in class

    (spoken) Class warfare, southern style that is

    Well, a true gentleman he gets on the Internet
    says “Boys get down here, kitchen table’s set
    you’ll get more pussy than Frank Sinatry’
    and best of all it’ll all be free!”

    (spoken) free of gamey, status climbing feminine bullshit that is

    Well, the boys heard right and the next thing ya’ knew
    They’s fucking southern gals ’til their dicks were blue
    the pussy was tight , and finger lickin’ good
    and they owed it all to Ian Ironwood!

    (spoken) His Wood was Iron by God! Good on ya’ Ian!

    Ya’ll come back now, ya’ heayah!

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    BTW based on Ian’s account at privateman about Southern women.

    WARNING: Intended for amusement only. Any serious reflection/remarks are strictly forbidden.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    This is something I had written a few weeks after my husband and I got engaged, and I noticed another girl was interested in him.

    http://www.rosehope.com/a-little-down/

    In our marriage, he is very careful not to cross that line, and I am very careful not to do the same to him. But this is partially because of our personalities. We’re both INFJ and quite sensitive, so what might work for other couples will just not work for us.

    And no it did not make me hot for him or find him sexier. It made me feel less hot and less sexy, therefore less into bedroom stuff. When it all passed (especially after when they got different seating arrangements), I was much more relaxed, and things got better in the bedroom. Again, though, I don’t speak for other couples, just our own marriage dynamics.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    No husband should ever, ever flirt with another woman. It is cheap, and disrespects everyone. Is is humiliating, and soul destroying. You want to chase strays get divorced and ante up. Doing it behind the facade of marriage is unmanly.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      No husband should ever, ever flirt with another woman. It is cheap, and disrespects everyone. Is is humiliating, and soul destroying. You want to chase strays get divorced and ante up. Doing it behind the facade of marriage is unmanly.

      And this is why I LOVE LOVE LOVE Munson!

      He’s a natural alpha of good character. Don’t see too many of those around anymore.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    That still leaves open a vast, vast world of girls who are unaware that they’re mostly operating on loin-based instincts and rationalizing the results. Most of our dating pool is drawn from that group there, and guys need practical solutions for them.

    I understand that, but I think the so-called “unaware” girls can become aware. Plus those girls might be wired to not like anxiety, or they might liked it even if they’re aware!

    One size does not fit all, and there are plenty of red pill girls in the manosphere who say they like it when their men flirt a bit. I’m too lazy to find some examples, but I have come across some comments.

  • Marellus

    Susan, you can be damn sure that if a woman f#cks with me, that I will withdraw emotionally from her, that I will flirt outrageously with other women, that I will disappear whenever I please, that I will wreck the relationship. I’ve done it before, and I will do it again.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marellus

      Susan, you can be damn sure that if a woman f#cks with me, that I will withdraw emotionally from her, that I will flirt outrageously with other women, that I will disappear whenever I please, that I will wreck the relationship. I’ve done it before, and I will do it again.

      Understood, and it proves my point. Behaving this way is the nuclear option. That may make sense if the relationship is already in the shitter. It’s probably not good policy in a functional marriage or LTR.

  • Dogsquat

    Munson, do you prefer marble or bronze?

    I’m going to commission a bust of you and have it installed in my local city park.

    Good stuff, too, Ian.

    Gents, an important part of what Ian said was to “play up the perfect gentleman” with your SO’s peers/family/coworkers. You want her girlfriends asking your SO if you have any single friends who are like you.

    That’s a slightly different kind of flirting than the usual.

    It’s possible to do this without pushing jealousy boundaries as well.

  • The Unfortunate Rake

    Sometimes PUAs like Roissy go waaay too far with a basically valuable idea. I think they do it in response to witnessing too many men who make mistakes in the other direction.

    A man in a relationship with a young woman who has high sexual market value MUST regularly remind her of his own value, particularly his status and his attractiveness to other women. Too many men get complacent and fail to do this. They woo and win the girl in a context that showed off status and desirability, then get so comfortable in a relationship that the girl never sees that side of him again.

    She’s not just bored — she lacks basic cues that trigger attraction. She feels enormous anxiety and self-doubt as a result, and suddenly can’t articulate why she was attracted in the first place. And she leaves.

    The guy is left wondering what he did wrong — he’s the same person, and the relationship was so comfortable. Why did it end?

    Men don’t feel attraction to a woman because of her status or desirability to other men. Most are ignorant that these things deeply matter to women. In fact, since men value fidelity and devotion in women, they tend to pour these on too much, smothering their partner with an overdose of security that only further kills attraction.

    “Instill dread” is a terrible way to put it, and only a sociopath would actually enjoy keeping a person in a state of negative emotion all the time. However, reminding his relationship partner of his value, in non-obvious ways, is an essential relationship skill for any man. And that reminder to her will inevitably carry with it the implication of options.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @The Unfortunate Rake

      “Instill dread” is a terrible way to put it, and only a sociopath would actually enjoy keeping a person in a state of negative emotion all the time. However, reminding his relationship partner of his value, in non-obvious ways, is an essential relationship skill for any man. And that reminder to her will inevitably carry with it the implication of options.

      You’ve just described the health relationship dynamic, as opposed to the diseased one. Cosign.

  • Ted D

    Rake – good stuff. Very good stuff in fact.

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    I’m so glad you made this entry. I read something like this over at Roissy and was like “Are you kidding me?”

    May I say how much I love this blog…and even the comments :-)

  • Sassy6519

    I think Im trying to apply logic to it so maybe thats the problem. The explaination for it makes sense I guess, but I dont like the idea of rely on other women to give you the green light. Also I dont care about looks nearly as much as other people seem and they fall absolutely last on my “list”. Other peoples opinions are too subjective for my objective taste. I wouldnt be able to trust them. If I like someone then I just go with it. Hell other people could dislike him and I wouldnt mind.

    I never seek approval before I start to date a guy. Typically, I begin dating a guy that I like and consider attractive objectively. Later, when he meets my friends/coworkers, my initial judgement of the guy is often reinforced by them.

    I try to be as objective as possible in my life about everything. One facet of that involves taking the opinions of others into consideration of things. If I thought a guy was attractive, yet no one else thought he was, I would chalk it up to error on my end. This has never happened before because I have never pursued things with a guy that I didn’t imagine having other women attracted to him as well.

    I might think a clump of dirt is gold in my eyes, but it’s not gold to the rest of the world. As much as I might believe the clump of dirt is gold, I wouldn’t be able to sell it as gold to other people. There is a standard for what gold is. There is also a rough standard for what attractiveness is for both genders. Whenever I date a guy, I’m not trying to sell him to other women, but I want to be sure that I’m not deluded about the value I see in him.

  • sweetsue

    ” This kind of behavior should be a deal breaker. If your boyfriend does it once, let him know how it makes you feel. If he does it again, get the hell out. If your husband suddenly starts flirting with other women, address it immediately. Figure out where his fear and insecurity lies, and rush to reassure him in every way you can. This dynamic is a relationship destroyer, and it’s toxic for children. Don’t enable it. ” …….”If he’s employing the second strategy, he is operating from a mindset of lack, or scarcity.

    Exactly! Actually either way he is insecure. Cads are either lacking in self esteem or narcissists either way its insecurity. Know this and use this – if he is just running scared and operating from a position of lack – call him on it – make him own his insecurity and tell him that this is not an acceptable way to deal with it. If he is a CAD do like wise – a cad will do it a second time to see if you can get away with it. Second time it is a good bye!

  • Mike C

    Susan,

    I mostly agree with the gist of what you are saying here, but disagree on a few particulars.

    First, totally cosign VD’s, Ian’s, and Unfortunate Rake’s comments. All of it spot on.

    A healthy relationship should *NOT* have the guy on a regular basis instilling dread and trying to make the woman anxious about all the ass he could be tapping. But here is the corollary to that. A healthy relationship should *ALSO* be devoid of any unnecessary conflict or drama creation by the woman, any disrespecting, or excessive and annoying shit testing. Also, in a healthy relationship, the woman should not be getting complacent about having a man’s exclusive commitment. Instilling dread and playing up one’s options are legitimate responses to those things happening from the woman.

    I’ve been with my GF over 6 years now. I can only recall 2 instances over 6 years where I took actions to “instill dread”. In both cases, there was some extremely bad behavior on her part that I needed to clearly communicate would not be tolerated. The magnitude of the bad behavior warranted the “instill dread” measure. One case was early in our dating, and I basically didn’t take any of her calls, let them all go to voicemail, and I think I let 3-4 days pass without talking to her. I’ll admit the intent was to make her think she had lost me over her actions. To the other point, it is my sense that sometimes women can lose sense of the value of having a exclusive commitment especially from a higher value guy, and they may need reminding from time to time to value what they have.

    Healthy relationships are founded in love, empathy, etc. but it is also true that ALL human relationships involve some interplay of power dynamics. Healthy relationships have an absolute minimum of power struggles but it is naive to think they don’t exist at all. The tactics related to instilling anxiety are involved when you have a power dynamic that has escalated a bit out of control.

    Bottom line, a guy who does this kind of stuff for shits and giggles is a bad person, but a woman who requires a high level of these tactics for her to not create drama//conflict and be appreciative isn’t suitable for a long-term relationship.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      A healthy relationship should *ALSO* be devoid of any unnecessary conflict or drama creation by the woman, any disrespecting, or excessive and annoying shit testing. Also, in a healthy relationship, the woman should not be getting complacent about having a man’s exclusive commitment.

      Agreed. So far so good.

      Instilling dread and playing up one’s options are legitimate responses to those things happening from the woman.

      Rather than instilling dread via flirting with other women, how about stating that you know your own value and won’t tolerate it?

      The magnitude of the bad behavior warranted the “instill dread” measure. One case was early in our dating, and I basically didn’t take any of her calls, let them all go to voicemail, and I think I let 3-4 days pass without talking to her. I’ll admit the intent was to make her think she had lost me over her actions.

      That is not what I’m talking about here. You didn’t use other women to shame her. You withheld affection for good reason for a period of time while you cooled down. That’s sensible, and not very manipulative, or at least it’s within reason.

      Bottom line, a guy who does this kind of stuff for shits and giggles is a bad person, but a woman who requires a high level of these tactics for her to not create drama//conflict and be appreciative isn’t suitable for a long-term relationship.

      I think it’s fair to say that a relationship whether either party is resorting to tactics of promoting jealousy, the end is in sight, or at least a miserable future.

  • VD

    A man who flirts with other women to prove his value in his wife’s eyes is a man of low value. It’s a massive DLV, and that’s the irony. The true alpha has the self-discipline and honor to be gracious, but not flirtatious. His wife is well aware of his attractiveness to others, and grateful that he does not exploit it to make her anxious.

    How can a demonstration of value be considered a DLV? A woman would have to be remarkably Game-cognizant and dispassionate to conclude that because her husband is purposefully attracting the attention of other women, he is therefore displaying lower value and she should therefore lose attraction to him. This strikes me as overanalysis. The alpha has no need to increase anxiety because his wife ALREADY knows that he can find a replacement for her at any time and is already anxious about it. That’s why, to stabilize the relationship, he has to reduce dread and provide reassurance. On the other hand, the lower value beta is much better served by inducing dread and removing reassurance on occasion in order to stabilize the relationship. Roissy isn’t writing for the alphas, he’s writing for the betas to help them achieve results more in line with the alphas. But just as “being yourself” doesn’t work for those who are not natural alphas, “don’t make your wife feel bad” isn’t likely to work for the lower value husband either.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      How can a demonstration of value be considered a DLV? A woman would have to be remarkably Game-cognizant and dispassionate to conclude that because her husband is purposefully attracting the attention of other women, he is therefore displaying lower value and she should therefore lose attraction to him.

      I’ve been in many social situations where some married man was too attentive, placing his hand on my lower back, getting too close, going for excessive eye contact. Many of these men were cheating alpha types. I’ve had it happen on the Little League field, at PTA meetings, charity benefits, block parties and in church. We women have words for men like this: skeeze, sketchball, slimy, snake, cheater. I’m sure that every one of those guys thinks he’s just the hottest, when in reality he’s making a fool of himself and his wife when he acts that way. I’ve caught death stares from some of those wives – it sure didn’t look to me like Mr. Alpha Cheater was getting laid that night. Mostly, I just don’t think it works. If it does, you’ve got a head case on your hands, and you’ve just made her a bit more neurotic with your dread strategy.

      I do get what you’re saying about betas, but even you say they often do pretty well with women. I think a lot of beta guys are married to beta girls.

      If there’s trouble at home, then yes – off to MMSL you go. Athol is advising men on rather intractable problems with very alienated wives. I won’t pretend to know what’s best in that situation.

  • WarmWoman

    Would staring and checking out other women in front of your partner be considered flirting? I have mixed views. All of us humans notice someone attractive, but doing it excessively would feel a little awkward.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Warm Woman

      Would staring and checking out other women in front of your partner be considered flirting? I have mixed views. All of us humans notice someone attractive, but doing it excessively would feel a little awkward.

      It’s rude. When your partner is not present, look around all you like. When you’re in the company of someone you love, you don’t create doubt and insecurity in that person by letting your gaze linger too long on someone of the opposite sex. I consider this basic courtesy. I know that people sometimes do this too to instill dread.

  • J

    My husband once told me, when I turned down sex too many times in a row….

    I don’t get that. It’s sex. Unless you’re sick or angry, why would you turn it down?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      I don’t get that. It’s sex. Unless you’re sick or angry, why would you turn it down?

      There was a time when the kids were little, and we were both super stressed. I had just become a SAHM, he was miserable in his job. Bizarrely, this increased his libido and killed mine. In the end I decided to lie back and think of England. The good news was, once I made that choice, my sex drive came right back. Crisis averted.

  • Glasses

    Susan, I think this is a great anti-game post. We need more of those. It’d be great if you could write up a post, or even a series of posts, on how game tactics make women feel, and how they should respond. Is he negging you? Here’s why he’s doing that, and here’s what you should tell him. Is he pushing for sex early? Here’s how you should handle it. He says he doesn’t believe in marriage? Run. (That one’s simple, haha). And so on.

  • moon-mama

    de-lurking to share a little. This post brought to mind a book I recently gleaned insight from. It’s called “Attached- the new science of adult attachment”. A hefty portion focuses on an “anxious/avoidant” casting in relationships, wherein one partner is anxious (preoccupied with the relationship and worried about the partner’s ability to love them back) and one is avoidant (equates intimacy with loss of independence and constantly tries to minimize closeness). It’s a jacked up dynamic that lots of people fall into! As of late I’m usually the anxious one… though I played avoidant through much of my sluttiest days (which were plentiful… I’m pretty much the poster girl for hookingupdumb).

    an npr inverview with the authors is here if: http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail4790.html

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @moon-mama

      Thanks for de-lurking! That book sounds interesting and relevant – thanks for the recommendation. Anxious/avoidant sounds like the power is all on one side. A therapist told me once that every relationship – every one – has a pursuer and a distancer. It is never 50/50, nor can it ever be. But you don’t want that balance to be too out of whack. Anxious/avoidant sounds like a similar concept.

      I played avoidant through much of my sluttiest days

      Were you trying to distance yourself emotionally to protect yourself? Was it the pursuit of being the least invested person, so as to have more power in the relationship? So many women fall into that pattern, and ultimately realize it’s making them unhappy.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I do wonder if the guys would approve of the other way around. If you fear that your girlfriend will slap any woman that cross a line with you, how would you feel? More loved and considered hot or you will feel she is a psycho and find a way to get out of the relationship ASAP?
    Genuinely curious about the other side of dread.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I don’t get that. It’s sex. Unless you’re sick or angry, why would you turn it down?

    Heh same idea I think I only was too tired for it once or twice and morning after I was totally “Man I could had gotten laid last night I should had go for it” and make up for it right away. I can imagine saying no to sex without a freaking good reason, I always regret it even with good reason.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      Ha! Spoken like a woman who has not yet had her first baby!

  • Jesus Mahoney

    And yet, despite their admitted toxicity, they can have some distinct utility when an individual is being treated for cancer.

    I can understand this line of reasoning. However, relationship cancer is serious. You don’t use chemo to treat a head cold. Resorting to jealousy seems like a desperate, last-ditch effort at saving a relationship. It would be far more useful to advise men on how to display their value over the course of the relationship so that his gf/wife doesn’t begin to lose attraction or take him for granted in the first place.

    On the other hand, the lower value beta is much better served by inducing dread and removing reassurance on occasion in order to stabilize the relationship.

    Presumably the “lower-value” man would be in a relationship with a “lower-value” woman. Also, a man’s SMV increases over time whereas a woman’s decreases, so that, unless the man falls on some serious hard times, there should be no need to fall back on desperate measures.

    For the most part, women are very perceptive. My gf tells me whenever she thinks someone was flirting with me or showed interest. You don’t have to go out of your way to show a woman you have options. If you really do have options, she’ll probably be more aware of it than you.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan, Mike C, Ironwood etc.

    I like the comparison of jealousy/dread to chemo, it hurts a lot of stuff but its like the last resort.

    I’m thinking before it ever gets that far just a simple well said “drop it” or something similar would be more than adequate.

    Its a way of removing exclussivity (dread, or we should hope) without promoting jealousy.

    I find that works far better for me than flirting around which I don’t do anymore. Jealousy is a poison and a cure and the difference between the dose that cures and the dose that kills is very small.

    @ Susan

    I knew a guy like your father once, old man thinks he’s gods gift to women. If I hadn’t been serving him coffee I would’ve smashed the pot over his head.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Jealousy is a poison and a cure and the difference between the dose that cures and the dose that kills is very small.

      That’s going into my file of quotables. Well said.

  • Mike C

    e at Back to School night, a woman came up to me and said, “Oh, your husband is sooooo attractive!” I loved it, I grinned from ear to ear. And of course I told him on the way home. He was tickled. Then I said, “I gave you this information, but you’d better not use it!” <b<laughed and said, “I promise.”

    This would have been my response in the past. Now I would and do respond differently. At least for me, the one thing I make regular use of in my LTR is Agree and Amplify. Come back with something utterly absurd and so ridiculously over the top that clearly is total bullshit, but at least to me it sets the right tone. I would have said something like “Not use it? I’ve got a date lined up with her tomorrow” and use the right vocal tone and facial expression to convey it is an absurdity. Clearly, ridiculous but it actually makes fun of the request but is also reassuring at the same time. Fact is, the “better not use it” really is a very itsy bitsy shit test.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Yeah, agree and amplify would work really well in that situation.

  • Mike C

    Rather than instilling dread via flirting with other women, how about stating that you know your own value and won’t tolerate it?

    Ehhhh…don’t want to debate this point too much, but direct, overt communication will often fail. The most effective route is always going to be some type of indirect subcommunication. You have to make your point without saying it. Not to mention in this specific example, a guy simply can’t verbalize “I have options”. That just seems try hard. It has to be demonstrated. FWIW, I’ve never made a pass or anything like that….I’ve been in situations where I’ve had friendly banter with her co-workers if we were out, and there were a few cases where one or two got a bit grabby or huggy with me but nothing ever egregious. What exactly crosses the line? That will probably vary from girl to girl and her own level of security.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    It has to be demonstrated.

    I agree with this. There has to be action of some sort, or at least the possibility of action. The action doesn’t necessarily have to be flirting, it could be a number of things. If things are really bad, it could be walking out or telling her you’re gonna walk if things don’t change. It could simply be dressing up a bit and attending a bit more to your appearance, working out, etc… Changing up habits, suddenly giving her breathing room if you formerly smothered her with attention, etc… Anything that conveys the sense that you’re not under her thumb.

  • J

    A man who flirts with other women to prove his value in his wife’s eyes is a man of low value. It’s a massive DLV, and that’s the irony. The true alpha has the self-discipline and honor to be gracious, but not flirtatious. His wife is well aware of his attractiveness to others, and grateful that he does not exploit it to make her anxious.

    And this is why I LOVE LOVE LOVE Munson! He’s a natural alpha of good character. Don’t see too many of those around anymore.

    You’re on fire today, SW. Cosigned!

    And I would assume that Munch is a relatively low count guy as well-you know, the sort we aren’t supposed to find attractive. ;-)

  • SayWhaat

    Girls reading this site would do well to try to actively work against their own instincts and reward the hell out of anything he does to demonstrate security and comfort.

    Oh, I am…he did a lot to make sure I was comfortable, even asking me to be his gf before we had sex.

    Now when he rings my door in 5 minutes, he’ll get his reward wrapped up in little more than a blazer and red lace panties. ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Oh, I am…he did a lot to make sure I was comfortable, even asking me to be his gf before we had sex.

      Now when he rings my door in 5 minutes, he’ll get his reward wrapped up in little more than a blazer and red lace panties.

      Folks I think we have a unicorn sighting – a woman who’s on fire for her beta boy…

  • Sassy6519

    @ SayWhaat

    Woah.

    (Said in my best RuPaul voice) You better work girlfriend!!!

  • J

    I’ve had it happen on the Little League field, at PTA meetings, charity benefits, block parties and in church. We women have words for men like this: skeeze, sketchball…

    My friend’s husband came on to me at my mom’s wake. When my husband, who was standing next to me, was distracted by another conversation. If this were a “bring a pig” party, I’d win. ;-)

    It was a DMS–demonstration of maximum sleaziness.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      My friend’s husband came on to me at my mom’s wake. When my husband, who was standing next to me, was distracted by another conversation. If this were a “bring a pig” party, I’d win.

      Respect, I can’t compete with that.

  • J

    The good news was, once I made that choice, my sex drive came right back. Crisis averted.

    Yeah, it does come back if you let it. I was terrified of sex after the forceps birth of my older son, but we slowly eased back into it. It was fine.

  • Doc

    Men often lament that they have to act the way they do to maintain attraction, but women want it that way. Sure they will complain about it – and everything else – but it doesn’t change the fact that it works, and it works because women want what is “unavailable” to them.

    Heck, I wear a wedding band when I travel even though I’m single – why? Because there are a lot of married women and single women out there looking for that since it means No Strings Attached. I’ve gotten snowed in at airports and spent the weekend in a hotel room – courtesy of the airline – with a woman I met on the plane – courtesy of her husband or boy-friend.

    Don’t criticize those that take advantage of a trait. Maybe working to change that trait would be a better start – but that would require a woman to admit, even to themselves, that maybe most of their problems start a little closer than the man they may be with… Fortunately for me, THAT will never happen. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doc

      Sure they will complain about it – and everything else – but it doesn’t change the fact that it works, and it works because women want what is “unavailable” to them.

      Heck, I wear a wedding band when I travel even though I’m single – why? Because there are a lot of married women and single women out there looking for that since it means No Strings Attached. I’ve gotten snowed in at airports and spent the weekend in a hotel room – courtesy of the airline – with a woman I met on the plane – courtesy of her husband or boy-friend.

      Precisely. These are not loving or admirable marriages in any way. Committed men or women cheating, or sending the normal mating cues that they’re sexually available – which is what flirting is – are behaving in a way that is destructive to the relationship.

      Extramarital flirting leading to affairs may even the score, but it destroys the relationship. If the relationship already sucks? Well, I’m not addressing those people.

  • Lokland

    @ Saywhaat

    That sound so frickin hot.

    @ Sassy

    Ty, my fiance read the zombie comment and got jealous. She reclaimed her territory quite well.

  • The Unfortunate Rake

    Mike C,

    While many claims are best made indirectly (I am strong, I have options, I know the secret to the 2-hour orgasm), I think that boundary-setting should always be done directly and unequivocally. If she engages in misbehavior, call her out on it and tell her it is unacceptable. A passive-aggressive approach risks miscommunication and also suggests that her behavior is more tolerable than it is. If you really need to let her know that you’ll leave her, leave her.

    The attention of other women should not be used as a threat but rather as an aphrodisiac. If she has negative associations with your receiving attention from other women, that greatly lowers the probability of a threesome in the future. And that’s not healthy for any relationship.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rake

      If she has negative associations with your receiving attention from other women, that greatly lowers the probability of a threesome in the future. And that’s not healthy for any relationship.

      That’s a joke, right?

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Ha! Spoken like a woman who has not yet had her first baby!

    Heh I know change will change after the baby is born. I meant as off now.

    @SayWhaat
    If good guys got laid as often and as enthusiastically as bad boys things would be totally different. Make us proud. Changing the SMP one bang at the time! You go girrrrl!!!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    Ty, my fiance read the zombie comment and got jealous. She reclaimed her territory quite well.

    I’m glad to have been of service.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    Ehhhh…don’t want to debate this point too much, but direct, overt communication will often fail. The most effective route is always going to be some type of indirect subcommunication.

    You have to make your point without saying it. Not to mention in this specific example, a guy simply can’t verbalize “I have options”. That just seems try hard. It has to be demonstrated.

    @Mike C..can’t you do both? Tell what the problem is and why, then demonstrate the natural consequence that happens as a result of the offending action?

    Over the course our lengthy time together, both in dating and our marriage, I have most appreciated and respected my husband when he has directly communicated what he expects from me. He set this tone early in our relationship. “I think it’s rude when you interrupt me when I’m talking.” (I come from a family that can be rather verbose—we talk non-stop and cross-talk with each other, both men and women. It never occurred to me that it was rude behavior.) I appreciated that he expressed how he felt about it, and I adjusted my behavior for him.

    Throughout our years, he’s continued to let me know, very clearly with words, why and when he has felt disrespected. (It has happened rarely, and we can clear it up immediately.)

    He was the first guy I dated that did this effectively, and it was very attractive to me.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sometimes women generate their own anxiety. Be careful, the fact that you experience anxiety doesn’t mean he’s actually manipulating you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Sometimes women generate their own anxiety. Be careful, the fact that you experience anxiety doesn’t mean he’s actually manipulating you.

      Fair point. Women can definitely make themselves crazy by going headlong into the drama and imagining the worst.

      I am not criticizing men for inadvertently causing anxiety. I am criticizing the behavior of using it as a tool to generate sexual attraction and keep a woman on her toes.

  • Charm

    Oh I hate coming this damn late to the party. 5 People have already said what I wanted to say. Anywho I have this response:

    I think most guys believe that you believe this – but us beta men usually spent a lot of years being burned by believing women who said, “I just want a nice guy.” The thought that “dread is bad” is awfully similar. Most of us are not really willing to take that on faith. I get that Charm or Hope say they don’t like it, and again, I believe that they believe it.

    I’ve thought further and I definitely agree with. When I first started to read the sphere blogs I thought all of this stuff was a bunch of crap and didn’t pertain to ME. Thats right ME. It also doesn’t pertain to quite a few of the women on her. As we determined on the last thread a fair portion of the women here are in fact Intuitive s which Im sure isn’t a coincidence so to say that were “normal” isn’t accurate. We make up about 10% of the female population. So in this instance were “outliers”.

    Over the past few months of reading these type of blogs my eyes have really been opened. I hate dread and a lot of other “game” because I think its a damn shame that men have to literally go through all this just to pull a damn woman. So then, I started to really think about and start to pay attention to the women I see around me. (I go to OSU so I’ve got a lot of observe) and you know what I’ve found? Women are just like that. Most of them anyway.

    Most women would respond very well to game. A fair portion of women probably would also respond fairly well to dread. My problem is that I like to project how I see the world on to how other people see it. But the fact is that most women are absolutely clueless. They don’t know what they want, they don’t know why they do the things they do and they don’t respond to logic or reason very well. There I said it. I confirm that women are illogical and unreasonable (only because the majority are and they make the rule).

    Over the past few months of conversing with a lot of the guys here, I’ve been trying to see it from their point of view and I have to say men are up against the wall in this shit. Women are crazy. I, as a woman, have never been able to handle most women. I couldn’t imagine what men go through trying to date/marry/reproduce with them. I couldn’t imagine. Im actually glad to be a woman dating than I to be a man. If I were male I’d have gone my own damn way a loooooong time ago.

    What Susans husband said to her about sex would have been all I needed to get my shit together. I’d bet a fair portion of the other girls on here would probably agree. But I have to admit most women probably would not have. They would have taken it as some personal slight against them and raised hell over it. They would have tried to ruin your life for you daring to make a request of them in a relationship. In this case, men are thus forced to use the backdoor method of flirting with other women to “regain her interest”. And thats what gets me. Its a damn shame. You can tell a woman not to take you for granted because she will lose you and she probably wont respond until you’ve got one foot out the door and she feels that “dread”.

    So no, I don’t advocate the use of dread in the manner that Roissy prescribes. I think that form is cruel. However, I think that the shit would make a fair portion of the female population tingle like hell (they do love danger and all that). Thats a fact that Im accepting. I don’t want it to be true because I want women to be better than that, but I feel like they just are “like that”.

    So Odds and the other men on here: You’re right. Men of past generations knew exactly how the female mind worked and how to keep a lid on it. Over the last several decades feminist have been lying like holy hell to men to the point that everyone seems to be “relearning” what their fathers should have taught them. I mean, I’ve always known that well full of it, but Im really realizing how full of shit they truly are.

    This is why I actually like good game. I don’t even consider it game. I consider it “The reeducation of men about the female mind”. Most of this doesn’t apply to heavily to women like me, hope, sassy, susan, anacoana, j, say whaat and the like because we are very much outliers. We found this blog because we aren’t out ruining mens lives with our harpy behavior. We simply do not make the rule, and I was never trying to speak for all women here, I just wanted to let it be known that we weren’t all like that. That I wasn’t like that.

    Does the red pill effect come in waves? If so, I think Im on the their wave or something. Lol.

    Susan, you should poll the MBTI types of the women that post regularly here. I wouldn’t be too surprise if all of us had intuition in common.

  • Charm

    Third wave*

  • OffTheCuff

    Charm,

    Female post of the year.

    This is exactly what we’re trying to go through to you women. You actually understand the nuance and the male perspective now.

    Go forth and use your powers for Good.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      This is exactly what we’re trying to go through to you women. You actually understand the nuance and the male perspective now.

      Go forth and use your powers for Good.

      The question is, what will Charm do when a man “treats her mean to keep her keen?” Will she fall on her sword for the sins of her sex, or will she want to be treated in a way that reflects her personally – and what she’s bringing to the table?

  • OffTheCuff

    *get through

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Susan, you should poll the MBTI types of the women that post regularly here. I wouldn’t be too surprise if all of us had intuition in common.

    Maybe we should point out our single girls and boys to a dating site that could help them sort out some of this. http://www.typetango.com/

  • Charm

    @OTC

    I shall shout it from the mountain top.

    Lol.

    P.s. Im serious. I will. I already try to drop someone of what Ive learned here into everyday conversations I get into with other women and men. They always agree. I also have zero problem stating it like it is in mixed company. Even if there are feminist present. Ive been given ammo to shut them up now!

  • Odds

    Appreciate all that, Charm. If it makes you feel any better, a lot of us menfolk develop pretty thick skin about the whole process. Helps to vent anonymously online here and there, but for the most part, we’re dealing with it as well as can be expected.

    Now I just have to find one of those 10% Introspective/Intuitive or whatever-it-is types. Would have to be better than the date last week I cut short after she spent 20 minutes telling me why Rick Santorum is a misogynist just because she saw a bumper sticker (all I wanted was some coffee and light conversation). At least I can pat myself on the back for approaching more often.

    @ Susan

    I’m really just trying to stick with the established terminology. “Dread” probably is the wrong word for the concept – or at least, it establishes a pretty bad frame. But “fear of loss” definitely falls under the idea of “dread,” and part of the tactic really is about creating that fear for fun and profit. I just don’t want to mince words about it – coming up with nice-sounding words for a rough concept is the first step to normalizing it. I’m just not willing to let it fall out of the toolbox just yet, because it’s a useful tool for countering a lot of female mind games.

    On the other hand, “dread” is definitely the right word for how a red-pill man could see any number of manosphere hot-button issues (from the big ones like abortion, false rape accusations, and nuclear divorce all the way down to smaller ones like a bad rejection or slander from a slut). Even if you can completely separate damage from the fear of those things from the damage done by the actual events, it’s still a pretty damaging fear. Definitely not a healthy one. But someone, somewhere thought it was a good idea to give women that power, possibly to address an existing problem, and probably encouraged by short-term results (for instance, the first no-fault divorces were probably okay even by sane standards, and it took a while to become the evil it is today).

    Not a fan of doing one wrong to counter another, but I’m not wholly convinced it’s wrong. Just because most women want it (however much they protest) doesn’t make it right – but if creating dread is actually a necessary skill for dealing with most women, we’re left with either say “most women are not worthy of a relationship,” or “the ability to selectively manipulate your girlfriend’s fear of loss for fun and profit is occasionally necessary, and therefore acceptable.” That just leaves the question of whether it is not only useful, but necessary.

    Or I can just stick with the plan to find a cute, single INTJ (about 4% of the population) and dodge the question completely.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Odds

      Not a fan of doing one wrong to counter another, but I’m not wholly convinced it’s wrong. Just because most women want it (however much they protest) doesn’t make it right – but if creating dread is actually a necessary skill for dealing with most women, we’re left with either say “most women are not worthy of a relationship,” or “the ability to selectively manipulate your girlfriend’s fear of loss for fun and profit is occasionally necessary, and therefore acceptable.”

      We’ll disagree then. I’m well aware more and more men are adopting this strategy, which is why I felt compelled to write about it. We’re all reloading our weapons – it will be a fight to the death at this rate.

      So Most Women find dread an aphrodisiac, and most men will exploit that for fun and profit.

      I’ll continue writing for the apparent sliver of humanity that doesn’t wallow at that level.

  • ROI

    “… I know how to keep my man happy.”

    I agree somewhat with what you wrote, except this sentence… in the case where the wife does not REALLY know how to or maybe does not want to keep her man happy or more likely she has given up since she has already captured him in marriage and does not need to flirt with him or try to seduce him anymore. What is the man to do, tell her she needs to give him more attention and focus? And when she tells him that he has to love her the way she is, what then?

    Sorry, I have found that after trying to communicate with my wife and her lack of response or change, creating anxiety works better. Do I like it, no not really. Yes, the response from other women is nice, but I would really rather not have to do that. But apparently my wife does not feel attracted to me unless some other woman is threatening to take her husband.

    This stresses the importance of making a wise choice when choosing your spouse.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ROI

      Sorry, I have found that after trying to communicate with my wife and her lack of response or change, creating anxiety works better. Do I like it, no not really. Yes, the response from other women is nice, but I would really rather not have to do that. But apparently my wife does not feel attracted to me unless some other woman is threatening to take her husband.

      This stresses the importance of making a wise choice when choosing your spouse.

      Yes, that is what the post is about. Filtering.

  • ROI

    Reading through the rest of the comments now and this was spot on…

    “What Susans husband said to her about sex would have been all I needed to get my shit together. I’d bet a fair portion of the other girls on here would probably agree. But I have to admit most women probably would not have. They would have taken it as some personal slight against them and raised hell over it. They would have tried to ruin your life for you daring to make a request of them in a relationship. In this case, men are thus forced to use the backdoor method of flirting with other women to “regain her interest”. And thats what gets me. Its a damn shame. You can tell a woman not to take you for granted because she will lose you and she probably wont respond until you’ve got one foot out the door and she feels that ‘dread’. ”

    My wife took it as a major slight and was greatly offended.

  • VD

    I’ve been in many social situations where some married man was too attentive, placing his hand on my lower back, getting too close, going for excessive eye contact. Many of these men were cheating alpha types. I’ve had it happen on the Little League field, at PTA meetings, charity benefits, block parties and in church. We women have words for men like this: skeeze, sketchball, slimy, snake, cheater. I’m sure that every one of those guys thinks he’s just the hottest, when in reality he’s making a fool of himself and his wife when he acts that way.

    I have no doubt you are correct about what they say, but then, there is that pesky gap what women say and what women do. You realize that some of the women who call men such names do so in spite of having had sex with such men, right? For how could those men be cheating alpha types if their sleazy approach wasn’t working for them? I’m not condoning the unfaithful behavior on either side, you understand, only pointing out that the sketchy behavior isn’t anywhere nearly as unattractive to women as you would like it to be. As most of us would like it to be; I happen to find it repellent myself and with one exception, prefer not to associate with such men. But part of the reason John Hamm’s character on Mad Men is such a powerful male sex symbol is because he is a shameless cheater. Women are strongly drawn to such men in part because they know they are safe with them in one very important way: such a man is not going to push her for a relationship or tell on her. So, whether she’s in a relationship herself or she just wants some casual sex without consequences, the “sketchball” is the much more attractive option than the fine, upstanding man.

    Keep in mind that the married acquaintances who hit on you wouldn’t be trying it with you if it hadn’t worked with some of your friends and neighbors before you. How is he supposed to know you are really one of the faithful women or not until he puts you to the test?

    I’ve caught death stares from some of those wives – it sure didn’t look to me like Mr. Alpha Cheater was getting laid that night. Mostly, I just don’t think it works. If it does, you’ve got a head case on your hands, and you’ve just made her a bit more neurotic with your dread strategy.

    Well, from the male perspective, most women are head cases at least part of the time. Dread is no different than any other aspect of Game. The only reason it has been identified and articulated is because it was first observed to work. It’s not going to work every time, nor is it applicable in all situations. But every man who has had a sufficiently attractive woman send indicators of interest to him and subsequently noticed his girlfriend’s otherwise inexplicably increased attention understands that it does work, whether we ever intentionally make use of the concept or not.

    Please – please – don’t answer this question, but perhaps it might be helpful to contemplate this thought. If your husband is going off to a week-long [conference or whatever] in [insert glamorous city] where you know there will be no shortage of women of the sort he finds attractive, are you more instinctively inclined to send him off with a) no sex, b) perfunctory sex, or c) your best gymnastics routine? If your answer is (c), then you understand on at least some level that dread works.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      If your husband is going off to a week-long [conference or whatever] in [insert glamorous city] where you know there will be no shortage of women of the sort he finds attractive, are you more instinctively inclined to send him off with a) no sex, b) perfunctory sex, or c) your best gymnastics routine? If your answer is (c), then you understand on at least some level that dread works.

      Tending to and protecting something you value highly is not dread. It’s the keeping and care of a strong relationship. It’s no surprise to learn that partners cheat less when their needs are being met. Most of the guys who seek Athol’s help can point directly to their own failure to do that. Being the best, most generous and attractive partner is obviously a natural strategy for holding on to one’s mate. Incentives drive behavior – people unfortunately forget that.

      Instilling dread would be my husband’s telling me that he’s not sure he’ll have time to call when he’s away. Or not answering his phone at a late hour. On my side, instilling dread would be doing the same thing, perhaps going out with the girls to bars each night he’s gone. (For the record, I have never gone out with the girls to get drunk, and I don’t know any married women who have – I think we may be ignoring the elephant in the room here – socioeconomic status.)

      I do not claim that dread doesn’t work. I just think it spoils the relationship. If the relationship is already spoiled, then maybe it’s “what the hell.” But I do think that once you’ve gotten to a point where the Mrs. will only stick around if you make her jealous, then you’re stuck at a very low level of functioning.

      Funny you should mention Mad Men – when I watch it, it’s almost freaky how closely it resembles my own childhood. I was little Sally Draper. The point of the post is not that Don Draper doesn’t have affairs, or that women don’t find him attractive. Nor did he deliberately use dread as a tool to keep Betty invested. In any case, he destroyed his wife’s love for him and pretty much wrecked his kids’ lives, so the notion that dread is healthy for a relationship is invalid.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      One more thing:

      Keep in mind that the married acquaintances who hit on you wouldn’t be trying it with you if it hadn’t worked with some of your friends and neighbors before you. How is he supposed to know you are really one of the faithful women or not until he puts you to the test?

      Almost without exception, couples where the husband flirts with other women and shames his wife are excluded from the friend circle. They’re the neighbors that never get invited back. The men hate the guy and the women are creeped out. The Drapers have no friends. Most of those marriages end in divorce, and it’s not fun to hang out with people who are headed for a breakup.

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    @ Charm at 148,

    :-)

    Are we related?
    You have said exactly what I wanted to say.
    Auntie Susan is right, but unfortunately her advice cannot be applied to the current situation, which is admittedly messed up.

    One can’t make this stuff up. Things are as is, and the smart woman today needs to be thinking like you (and me).

    Totally counterintuitive, but there we are…

    OTC (at 150) and Rob (at 71) are my heroes for this post :-)
    Like Charm, I only learned about my own female tendencies from the Manosphere. It has helped immensely. Not to say I am a fan of the more seedy aspects of PUA.
    But what these two men and Charm are saying is the absolute truth.
    Feminism upset the cart of the SMP 50 years ago, and we are all having to pick up the pieces and learn stuff our parents would never have anticipated.
    Bravo, lady and gentlemen :-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JT

      Has your SO deliberately tried to keep you fearful of losing him? If so, how does it make you feel? Would you mind if your daughter married a man, and he flirted like crazy with the bridesmaids at the wedding? Enough so that the guests were whispering and noticing?

      The post is not about a messed up SMP. It’s about messed up one-on-one dynamics.

  • pvw

    Charm:

    As we determined on the last thread a fair portion of the women here are in fact Intuitive s which Im sure isn’t a coincidence so to say that were “normal” isn’t accurate. We make up about 10% of the female population. So in this instance were “outliers”.

    My reply:

    Yes, INTJ here, super logical; my emotions are grounded in logic, my logic, which makes sense to me. I don’t look for outside validation for it, it is what it is. It has gotten me this far in life without any horrible consequences, so I’m keeping what I got!

    Charm:

    What Susan’s husband said to her about sex would have been all I needed to get my shit together. I’d bet a fair portion of the other girls on here would probably agree. But I have to admit most women probably would not have. They would have taken it as some personal slight against them and raised hell over it.

    My reply:

    Some time ago, I was dealing with what I have come to realize (as I look back now) was an early mid-life crisis–I’m in young middle age. I was sad but I was managing; but on occasion, I just came out with some bitchy-sounding things that the husband thought was off-the-wall.

    As I’m an INTJ, my emotions are grounded in my internal logic, I tend not to get other people’s emotions well, so I didn’t realize how the husband would take my random musings out loud–my emotions.

    At the same time, he is an ISTJ, with his own narrow constraint on his emotional perspectives–grounded in his own experiences and internal logic. The things I was saying evoked some earlier bad experiences he had in a much earlier relationship long before he married me, so he called me on it, and I knew I had to apologize and act better.

    Yet, he can do his own craziness in his own quirky way, and this happened not long ago, when he did something that I found hurtful, and I dealt with it, calling him on his stuff, except that he didn’t seem at first to get my feelings the way I was able to get his.

    So I was bit more emotional at the time, in our immediate discussion, but I cooled down right afterwards and didn’t raise it again. But in my own mind, I gave him time to think about why he needed to think about how I felt. I was pleasant enough for a day or two, but not as warm as before. By day two, he came around and apologized.

    If anything, I think we generated anxiety in each other, in that we each woke the other up to our emotional realities in what were two situations where real live emotional issues and anxieties were at stake, not some make-believe manufactured anxiety to gain an upper hand, ie., by generating attraction in other people.

    Did we game each other? I don’t know; I tend not to think in terms of “game” when it comes to my marriage. We get along smoothly as it is, notwithstanding the two stories I spoke of earlier.

  • pvw

    For me as an INTJ, my intuition lets me see immediately what 1+2+3+4 equals…LOL, so I knew exactly what was going on when the husband felt threatened, and I knew how I had to respond in the first story…At the same time I knew why he wasn’t getting my feelings in the second story and how I had to respond to that, based upon my understanding of him.

  • VD

    I do not claim that dread doesn’t work. I just think it spoils the relationship. If the relationship is already spoiled, then maybe it’s “what the hell.” But I do think that once you’ve gotten to a point where the Mrs. will only stick around if you make her jealous, then you’re stuck at a very low level of functioning.

    That may well be. The problem is that it may well be that most marriages, indeed, most LTR, are not capable of progressing above a very low level of functioning. We know for a certainty that most LTR – not most first-time marriages – fail, after all. But I readily concur that dread would likely backfire on you, and on the more sensitive and instrospective women as well. I can’t see it helping my marriage in the slightest either, although I can think of a few where a judicious application might be in order. Any divorce wherein the ex-wife is genuinely surprised by the ease with which her ex-husband has replaced her is indicative of a marriage that dread might have saved.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Any divorce wherein the ex-wife is genuinely surprised by the ease with which her ex-husband has replaced her is indicative of a marriage that dread might have saved.

      Agreed. I do think we need to separate out “can this marriage be saved?” from “women are so hypergamous this is the only way to marital happiness.”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The problem is that this works. In the cases Sue’s talking about, the men took the principle too far, humiliating their mates rather than simply creating doubt. Subtlety is required if you’re going to use it. Not that I advocate using it–it’s Dark Triad stuff. The way I see it, if you have to resort to manipulation to keep a woman interested, the relationships not worth it.

    Like most game tactics, even when they’re sleazy, they contain a kernel of truth. In this case, the truth is that women want men that other women want. That does not mean, as some gamers seem to think, that women want men who want other women. Men who want other women humiliate their SO’s.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      In this case, the truth is that women want men that other women want. That does not mean, as some gamers seem to think, that women want men who want other women. Men who want other women humiliate their SO’s.

      Exactly. And women know when other women want their man without his having to participate or encourage them. The way to keep a wife most interested is to be attractive to other women – being generally charming and friendly is obviously fine – and allow your wife to notice that. By all means tell her that the young intern threw herself at you at the office, if you should be so lucky. Or enjoy her heightened awareness and you strike up a particularly interesting conversation at a cocktail party with some attractive woman. Nothing woring with that.

      If a guy has to start flirting hard and god forbid, negging other men’s wives, he looks desperate and sleazy. That’s why it’s a DLV.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    cont.

    So how does one manage to be a man with options w/o humiliating his woman? I’m tempted to say that Amanda Marcotte had it right: be more attractive. Developing some inner game, nurturing your confidence and self-esteem, cultivating interests, and putting some effort into being the best “you” possible is going to make you a more attractive man, and is going to give you options without having to actually pursue those options in order to inspire fear in your SO.

  • Tom

    @ Susan Re: #17
    You are spot on Susan. Any guy who has to resort to BS tactics to increase his womans interest in him lacks creativity and insight.
    Men wonder why a lot of women stop having sex, or even file for divorce if it gets bad enough?
    It is the resentment that builds up over time. He drops his clothes on the floor instead of the hamper, he doesnt help in the kitchen, doesnt vaccume, has sex the exact same way every time, might be a really selfish lover, has a temper and says hurtful things, lacks empathy etc etc etc.
    Many married friends (female) have cried on my shoulder over the years, and the story is like a broken record. I guess some guys think they married their mother to take care of them.
    sorry on breaking in on this “for female readers” section, but….

  • Tom

    JM
    The way I see it, if you have to resort to manipulation to keep a woman interested, the relationships not worth it.
    ________
    Not too sure I totally agree. The relationship may be well worth it, but the lines of communication need to be opened. People just dont fall out of love. There are reasons. Fix those reasons and the relationship may very well return to normal.
    Some people may scoff at this, but ,”the couple that lays together, stays together.” Keeping all aspects of the relationship alive and fresh, including sex, is very important. Sure there are virtually sexless marriages that go the distance, but normally those are two low libido people. sex can be a focus point if at least one person isnt getting enough. Mismatched libidos can be a big problem.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Not too sure I totally agree. The relationship may be well worth it, but the lines of communication need to be opened.

    Okay, but then you wouldn’t be resorting to manipulation, would you?

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    @ SW at 170:
    “Has your SO deliberately tried to keep you fearful of losing him? If so, how does it make you feel? Would you mind if your daughter married a man, and he flirted like crazy with the bridesmaids at the wedding? Enough so that the guests were whispering and noticing?

    The post is not about a messed up SMP. It’s about messed up one-on-one dynamics.”

    There are 2 aspects to your question. I believe that Jesus Mahoney has answered one of them to some degree.
    It is not about humiliating a woman. Because afterall, if a woman feels this way, she would walk. She should walk. I know I would.
    The reason it is important for a man to ‘push the boundary’ is precisely for this reason. Many betas of previous generations never ‘fitness tested’ a woman, so they never knew what her limits were. Nor his, for that matter. It does work, as Rob and Jesus are saying, inasmuch as it will tell a man whether a woman is there for the long haul or not. (I agree there are better ways to do this than flirt with other women LOL).

    The other aspect to your question is that it is never about an individual man or woman. We are all products of the current collective standards. That’s why it is best to keep the discussion on a general level.
    I am not personally into the whole ‘preselection’ thing. I only date a man I like, not because other women like him. In fact, I would prefer not to have any competition at all, personally, as I don’t have the time or energy to fight off the competition :-)
    But a man still needs to do what he needs to do to keep a woman.
    As everyone else is saying, if it is too much for a woman to take, he WILL lose her. But he needs to know where that boundary lies, early on. He needs to know what her ‘non-negotiables’ are. Otherwise he will be blindsided with the divorce that came from nowhere 12 years down the line.

    If I have a daughter in the future and her husband-to-be is flirting with the bridesmaids, I will be confident that it is at a level SHE is comfortable with. Irrespective of anyone else’s reaction to it. Because she is marrying this man. That means she knows him well enough. And her mother would have total confidence that she chose the best man for her. Because no daughter of mine will be clueless in this game. Mom will make absolutely sure of that. Of that I promise you. :-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JT

      The point about personal boundaries is a good one, but the PUA approach is specifically about exceeding the boundaries of comfort: INSTILL DREAD. For example, the groom’s behavior would have to spark some worry in your daughter – am I going to be able to hang on to this new husband of mine?

      It’s that negative exploitation of trust that I reject.

  • Jason

    Susan,

    I agree with the premise of your post, but I’ll admit that I had to learn this through my own trial and error. I always instinctively knew that flirting with other women in the presense of someone I was seeing was a sure fire path to keeping a girl glued, but it was also a path to insecurity, unnecessary conversations and arguments. I used to regularly do this, never crossing the actual line, but making it clearly evident that I can get others if I choose. I also dated a couple girls who played this game back, but since I never viewed those girls at potential LTRs it always blew up in their face as I didn’t genuinely care about their actions. The fact that I didn’t care made them CRAZY and even more jealous, as if they used the final card up their sleeve and were helpless.

    Now, I would say that I’ve more so internalized this attitude and I don’t have the need to overtly display it. I’ve done it without thinking and much more innocently once or twice in front of my current gf (and yes, she got upset), but I’ve been much much better about it. Even if I don’t show it, I know and she knows what my SMV is worth, and that instills a good attitude on both ends without hurt feelings or arguments.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      Now, I would say that I’ve more so internalized this attitude and I don’t have the need to overtly display it. I’ve done it without thinking and much more innocently once or twice in front of my current gf (and yes, she got upset), but I’ve been much much better about it. Even if I don’t show it, I know and she knows what my SMV is worth, and that instills a good attitude on both ends without hurt feelings or arguments.

      That’s incredibly mature for a guy your age who’s just gotten out of college. I give you a lot of credit. You’re right that your SMV is confirmed in her eyes just by the way other women respond to you in subtle ways. Your response is perceived as a betrayal. It may produce a night of fiery sex, I don’t know, but it’s like having a fight just to get to makeup sex. It’s a symptom that something is very wrong in the relationship.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Charm – Spot and and brilliant! The more I see from you, the more I’m convinced the work needs more *I* women.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    work = world.

    I swear I’m never going to get used to typing directly onto a screen…

  • J

    Respect, I can’t compete with that.

    LOL. I wish I could say it reflects on my attractiveness, but it really says more about what a nutjob the guy was.

    All kidding aside, it was a disgusting experience and had some big ramifications. It took my husband a while to process what had gone on, but once the disbelief wore off, he sat there stewing because he knew it was bad form to punch someone out at your MIL’s wake. (The guy actually had the habit of approaching women in situations where it would be very embarassing to react negatively. It was his MO.) Weeks later, I made a snarky comment about the guy to his wife, and she replied angrily, “Well, he likes you!” I said, “Damn skippy he does!” and told her what happened. She attempted to blame me; two other women came forward and confessed to similar experiences. (I’m not a special snowflake. :-( ) She went home and instilled a little dread of her own. They came very close to divorce, but she wouldn’t have been able to support herself so she backed down. The wife still suspects that something is going on at work, but he gives her friends a wide berth now. And they avoid him as well. Few women visit the wife in her home any more because they don’t want to be around him. It was very humiliating for all involved.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Your story of that couple’s deteriorating relationship is one I’ve seen played out numerous times. Oddly, in three of about ten situations I witnessed like this over the years, the husband ultimately confessed he was gay and left the family to be true to himself and that lifestyle. I’m not sure what to make of that – obviously the men were trying to prove their hetero cred even as they were heading toward a coming out crisis.

      In any case, I think it’s clear that extramarital flirting is predictive of divorce.

      After all, it was the Sexual Revolution that led directly to extramarital flirting, which led to affairs, which led to wife-swapping, which led to swinging. And the divorce rate skyrocketed. We’ve already done this experiment, and it was damaging to families, to children, to the guilty parties themselves, and of course to society. In fact, it’s not too much of a stretch to say that period led directly to the need for Game.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – he sounds like a real scumbag. I have to wonder though, did he only start acting this way AFTER they got married? I would venture to guess no, which means she did a pretty poor job of vetting him out before hand. If so, then something is either terribly wrong with the marriage, or something is terribly wrong with him.

    I will never understand how a woman can marry a guy, and THEN notice his bad behavior, as if it never occurred before the wedding. Most men I know that act this way, have ALWAYS acted this way. How can any woman claim surprise when he STILL acts that way after getting married?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      I will never understand how a woman can marry a guy, and THEN notice his bad behavior, as if it never occurred before the wedding. Most men I know that act this way, have ALWAYS acted this way. How can any woman claim surprise when he STILL acts that way after getting married?

      Good observation. This is why I advise women to get out if they’re dating someone who uses this tactic to secure their attraction. It’s not going to get any better over time. It’s also why I suggested that if this suddenly becomes a problem in a marriage, it’s indicative that something is wrong and needs to be addressed. I urge women to confront what’s going on, and provide whatever they can in the way of reassurance that may be needed.

      It’s also important for women whose husbands do not step out in this way to give them positive reinforcement for it. In my marriage, I don’t specifically mention it, but we both behave the same way. It’s an unspoken pact that this is what’s appropriate and best for our relationship.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    he sat there stewing because he knew it was bad form to punch someone out at your MIL’s wake.

    He should’ve approached him with a smile as if he had no clue what happened, lured him outside with the promise to show him something funny (can’t show you here, ya know, don’t want to be disrespectful and all), and then beat the fucking snot out of him in the parking lot.

  • J

    Almost without exception, couples where the husband flirts with other women and shames his wife are excluded from the friend circle. They’re the neighbors that never get invited back. The men hate the guy and the women are creeped out.

    This is my experience as well. The exception is when the wife continues to socialize with the other women on her own. She continues to be allowed in because the other women pity her and don’t want to abandon her. The husband OTOH becomes a pariah because the women don’t want to be approached by him and the men resent him.

    At one point, my friend threw her husband out. He showed up with his suitcase in his hand at the apartment of a man in our crowd who is divorcing. He expected to be welcomed as a fellow “playa.” Instead, the other guy refused to let him.

  • J

    Any divorce wherein the ex-wife is genuinely surprised by the ease with which her ex-husband has replaced her is indicative of a marriage that dread might have saved.

    Meh. Maybe. I think part of that dyamic is just that men are simply more apt to look for rebound relationships than women are. Women are often tied down with kids or worried about jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. Men will look for another woman to provide sex and validation. Look at how the advice men and women give to their peers differs. A woman would tell a divorced friend to not date for a year, to let herself heal. The ‘sphere advises men to FTOW.

    BTW, when a guy quickly finds a replacement, most women don’t regard him as a player but as a shallow jerk. It’s a red flag for many women as it indicates that the man was never really bonded to his ex or might be incapable of bonding.

  • J

    J – he sounds like a real scumbag. I have to wonder though, did he only start acting this way AFTER they got married? I would venture to guess no, which means she did a pretty poor job of vetting him out before hand. If so, then something is either terribly wrong with the marriage, or something is terribly wrong with him.

    Hard to say. She’s never indicated that he was a pig when they were young. They married right after she graduated college. He went to college in a different city, and they would see each other on the weekends. I know that she felt that he adored her, treated her like a princess, etc. before the marriage. Who knows what he did during the week or if she’d have been aware enough to even wonder. On her part, she was a very pampered, sheltered rich man’s daughter. I doubt that she really knew how to select a man on criteria that didn’t relate to his being a provider. (And, as I’ve said before, I don’t think that should be the main criterion.)

  • Charm

    @Odds

    “intuitives” is the N function for MBTI types. So INTJs, ENTJs, ENTP, INTP, INFP, ENFP, ENFJ, INFJ.

    We determined on the last thread that most of the commenter here almost exclusively fall into one of those types which is pretty rare considering those types for both men and women make up only 24% of the overall populations.

    So that INTJ you’re looking for is not 4% but only 1% of the female populations which is why they are so difficult to come by. ENTJ women (my type) are only 2.5% of the population but I think that female INTPs make up the smallest percentage for women.

    Good luck a catching one, Im an ENTJ their natural companion and I have yet to meet one knowingly.

    @Susan

    I’ve never had anyone try to instill “dread” in me before but the first person that I date definitely tried his hand at putting me down and making me feel inferior. It would come out of nowhere and I wouldn’t respond to it. He was a bit older than me, so I guess he thought he had the upper hand or something. Wrong. I ripped his throat out and he never spoke to me again. Im sure he didn’t see it coming either because he probably pegged me as a fool. If a man ever tried to use dread against me it would backfire and I’d be walking out the door before he could even turn back around from flirting. I put up with alot of crap from people in my family as a kid so I’ve had more than my fill of bullshit to last a lifetime.

    we’re left with either say “most women are not worthy of a relationship,”

    This is probably more true than any of us want to believe.

    “the ability to selectively manipulate your girlfriend’s fear of loss for fun and profit is occasionally necessary, and therefore acceptable.” That just leaves the question of whether it is not only useful, but necessary.

    Its definitely a necessity for most of those women “worth” dating.

    Ultimately though I commend me for continuing to go out there even though the pickings are pretty skim. I bet the women that red pill men date have no idea how many months those men put into bettering themselves through learning game. The least they could do is respect you for what you bring to the table, but I bet they barely notice. They probably think they “do better” than a man like that. Ungrateful bitches.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Charm

      I ripped his throat out and he never spoke to me again.

      Haha, you are one tough cookie! It sounds like you’re saying you understand why guys use such tactics, but the first one to try it on you was dead meat. Can you explain? Do you condone the instilling of dread or not?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Apparently INFP is the exact antithesis of the most common MBTI for men (ESTJ).

  • Charm

    The way I see it, if you have to resort to manipulation to keep a woman interested, the relationships not worth it.

    I partially agree with this. As Tom said, it think part of it comes down to opening up communication which appeals the woman, which is a benefit. But if a womans panties tingle when you hit on other women, and that not your style, the relationship probably isn’t worth it for you. But for some men I’d imagine they too would get something out of it. (an ego boost from flirting plus good sex when they got home)

  • Spank

    You know why this works? And why it’s a good idea for men?

    Women LOVE drama.

    If you don’t give it to them, they will seek it elsewhere. I bet through all tears, your mom stayed with your dad, didn’t she?

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – “Meh. Maybe. I think part of that dyamic is just that men are simply more apt to look for rebound relationships than women are. ”

    I don’t necessarily agree with this. I think the real truth is, once couples reach a certain age, the men simply have a better ‘resale’ value than the women. We have already mostly agreed across the board that in general, men have an increasing “market value” all the way through their 30′s and 40′s provided they are still at least doing as well as when they were younger (most are doing better by then.) So, when a couple divorces in their 30′s to 40′s, I think if the man is actually a decent guy, his chances of finding another mate are actually pretty good, because in his age bracket, there are plenty of women looking for an “established” man, either because they stayed single past their prime market years, or because they divorced and are back on the market.

    Women in the same boat however, may not have it so easy. Surely they can find any number of men to sex them up, and they may even sex them up in a semi-exclusive manner. But, she may very well have a difficult time truly “locking him down” because frankly, he is in a good position to play the field. The mistake women often make is, they misinterpret the attention men give them as their interest in something long term, when in fact they are simply looking for a port in the storm. Its the same problem faced by young women in college for that matter, only with a totally different set of men. By and large, the men that are single in that age bracket were probably men that have already been through the divorce grinder and learned their lesson (hopefully), or the players that never intended to settle down in the first place. So, women really have their work cut out for them once they reach the 30′s if they intend to “put themselves out there” to find love and a relationship.

    If it were me, the logical thing to do is: fix your marriage. You are already in it, you know your husbands issues/quirks/hang-ups, and if things aren’t too bad, he should be willing to assist. I would imagine his willingness to help fix things will be greatly increased if you sex him up some.

    At any rate, good luck ladies. I for one will never go blindly into the light again. I’m doing my best to make sure no other man does as well…

  • J

    JM #184

    LMAO. There’s a part of me that thinks DH really should have, even though I’m not a big proponent of “Let’s you and him fight.” I wouldn’t want DH to get hurt or arrested over this sort of BS, though I’m pretty sure DH could have won this battle of middle-aged men.

    The really fascinating thing about this guy is his MO of pulling his sh*t in such a way that his victims are reluctant to make a scene. He’s a master at setting the victim up to embarass themselves, hurt his wife or appear to be over-reacting. He had been dogging me for months before my mom’s death. While I stopped going to his home, I never had the courage to confront him directly because he would do this crap in an ambiguous fashion in front of his wife–brushing against me or other women “accidentally” or saying things that could be taken as suggestive–or not. She’d laugh this stuff off out of embarassment, and the other woman would look like a jerk if she said something. Even my husband was not quite sure at first what he saw when it was going on two feet away from him. He asked, “Was that what I thnk it was?” I replied that it was. He responded, “WTF. Should I hit him or something? It’s a wake for God’s sake.” I said, “Yep, that’s the MO. He relies on the decency of others to protect himself. Leave it alone.”

    Some examples: I ran into him in a buffet line after I stopped visiting my friend at her home. He mentions, in the midst of the crowd, that I don’t come over any more. I look at him and say, “Hmm, what you do know about that?” It was the most I felt I could say without making a scene. Or, this. A mutual friend had walked over to this couple’s home. As she was getting ready to leave, it started to pour. The husband offers the woman a ride home. She’s uneasy but can’t think of a way to refuse the ride in front of the wife. The husband drives the woman home, tellling her how much he likes her and asking if there is anything he can do for her. He gives her his business card. Luckily, when I did finally confront the wife, the second friend produced that card. Otherwise, I might have been blamed for tempting him. He was a genius at setting this stuff up.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – my guess is this guy has always been a scumbag, and because they were apart so much early on, she never knew. And, from your description, I would also venture that she really didn’t know what to look for in a quality man.

    Its unfortunate, because she probably doesn’t deserve to be treated like shit, other than the fact that she let it go on so long. I’m glad she put her foot down, but I don’t have much hope that he will stop behaving like a dog in heat.

  • Charm

    Women LOVE drama.

    You’d be surprised at how many men love that shit too. I personally hate drama, but I’ve seen guys participate very heavily in it.

  • Mike C

    @Mike C..can’t you do both? Tell what the problem is and why, then demonstrate the natural consequence that happens as a result of the offending action?

    Over the course our lengthy time together, both in dating and our marriage, I have most appreciated and respected my husband when he has directly communicated what he expects from me. He set this tone early in our relationship. “I think it’s rude when you interrupt me when I’m talking.” (I come from a family that can be rather verbose—we talk non-stop and cross-talk with each other, both men and women. It never occurred to me that it was rude behavior.) I appreciated that he expressed how he felt about it, and I adjusted my behavior for him.

    Throughout our years, he’s continued to let me know, very clearly with words, why and when he has felt disrespected. (It has happened rarely, and we can clear it up immediately.)

    Bb, I’m basically in agreement with you here, but we are talking about two very different things. One is about specific actions while the other is a more about your perception of your partner. I agree that one should directly communicate displeasure with specific actions….you interrupt me in the middle of a sentence, you always leave your shit in the dryer, etc. Indirect here is really just passive-aggressive. Communicating or rather subcommunicating you are an attractive man with options is a different matter. Frankly, in my opinion, it would be kind of ridiculous to directly verbalize “Hey, you better realize I am an attractive, high-value man who could get a bunch of other women”. That’s the sort of thing best subcommunicated very indirectly. If you are interested, go read Rollo’s post just put up which in the last few sentences addresses the need to indirectly suggest some things instead of beating the woman over the head with it. Unfortunately, this discussion like many gets cast into binary black or white extremes instead of the shades of grey. How many guys out there get blindsided with the “I’ve lost attration for you” deal in their LTRs? So it is incumbent on a guy to try and stay attractive, but also indirectly remind the woman of that from time to time in case she is getting a bit complacent in that regard. To the extent a woman stays on top of her “be attentive, show attraction” game to her man, the less the man needs to indirectly communicate his attraction and options.

  • J

    Ted #192

    That IS the manosphere wisdom on this subject. Certainly, as men age and die, the number of available men is greater than the number of available women. OTOH, I’ve seen a lot of divorced men who are really bad bets.

    A friend of mine is in the process of divorcing a prominent surgeon and (now diagnosed) NPD victim. He was genuinely emotionally abusive for years and years. She left, he promised to change, she took him back, he got crazier, and she left again. Less than a month later, he found a divorcee with kids who was thrilled to have found a doctor. She is still busy trying to pick up the pieces. She gets asked out, but she just isn’t ready to deal with things. She’s georgeous. She’ll find someone when she’s ready.

    On paper, it looks like he’s the winner here, but I don’t think so. Either this new gal will figure him out eventually and leave, or he will have found the sort of golddigger who can tolerate/manipulate a narcissist. (He hired the best attorney in the city, got pissed and told him that “doctor trumps lawyer.”) He’ll never be happy or make anyone else happy. Sometimes, the odds are good, but the goods are odd.

    I do agree though that if people can fix a relationship they should. It’s tough out there.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Gotta love Frank,..

    [Recorded June 12, 1964, Los Angeles]
    Hey, little girl, comb your hair, fix your make-up, soon he will open the door,
    Don’t think because there’s a ring on your finger, you needn’t try any more.
    For wives should always be lovers too,
    Run to his arms the moment that he comes home to you.
    I’m warning you,
    Day after day, there are girls at the office and the men will always be men,
    Don’t stand him up, with your hair still in curlers, you may not see him again.
    Wives should always be lovers too,
    Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you.
    He’s almost here, hey, little girl, better wear something pretty,
    Something you wear to go to the city,
    Dim all the lights, pour the wine, start the music, time to get ready for love.
    Time to get ready for love, yes it’s time to get ready for love,
    It’s time to get ready, kick your shoes off, baby….,

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rollo

      That’s cool, as long as you don’t interpret “men will always be men” as meaning something more than noticing attractive women at the office. They certainly shouldn’t be flirting at the office – even before sexual harassment laws, that was a slippery slope.

      In any case, holding up Frank Sinatra and Mad Men’s Don Draper as paragons of how to make a wife crazy with desire seems rather a stretch, as they both failed miserably at marriage. It occurs to me that Don Draper’s mother was a hooker. I think it would be interesting to learn about the life experiences and personality traits of men who engage in extramarital flirting.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        For the record, a couple of people have asked why I’ve written this post – why I am willing to seek out and take on the most extreme PUA types in the sphere.

        The reason is that these views are gaining traction. Game has gone mainstream, and some of the more negative aspects are the ones being adopted quickly. It’s so much easier to take the “dark” shortcut than to do the real inner work. Negs fly in every direction at freshman orientation. Girls wonder regularly if a guy is ignoring them or just pretending to ignore them. Amber Madison’s book attempts to distinguish between real assholes and Impostor Assholes, the latter being more relationship-worthy.

        It’s a race to the bottom. It’s an embrace of the lowest, most base aspects of human instinct. And the real problem is this:

        Good relationships cannot take root in such shallow soil. There is no tending and feeding. It’s like whacking a tree with a baseball bat when it’s dying to get one really good show out of it the next spring.

        I can’t tell men what to do, but I can urge women to reward behaviors that indicate good character, and a man’s willingness to work hard on himself and his relationships. I expect no less of women.

        I have never sought, and will never attempt, to get women used to the idea that guys need to be assholes to sustain their attraction. I’d much rather ask women to understand their own needs and triggers, and to select carefully to build a life partnership with someone capable and worthy.

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    @ tvmunson

    I’m honored, Sir. I hope all goes well with you.

    And to clarify for everyone else, the region I was pitching as a repository of unquenched feminine desire (i.e. a lot of young horny career women without a lot of opportunities for male companionship) I was specifically recommending the Morrisville-Cary region of the Research Triangle (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill) to a gentleman in DC who was looking for fresh horizons. There are an overabundance of young, intelligent, well-educated women in the biotech, medical and research cube farms here who just can’t seem to find a man. A few of them might even be wife material.

    But for the record . . . Southern girls are particularly gratifying. There is a sexual undercurrent to Southern culture that has survived the feminist wave. It is no accident that Southern women have a general reputation for being both incredible strong and incredibly feminine. Even adjusted for socioeconomic class the combination of good manners, a tradition of respect for family and social position, and a cultural architecture that tends to support a semi-formalized system of courtship behaviors and marital expectations mean a lot of the Red Pill work is done for you. A well brought-up Southern girl can bring a lot to the table in a marriage.

    Of course then you’ve got the inevitable alcoholic family issues, Daddy issues (and no one can have Daddy issues like a Southern girl) and a tendency for drama that makes life . . . interesting even in the best cases. But the benefits far outweigh the challenges if you do your due diligence.

  • The Unfortunate Rake

    Don’t know if this has been mentioned yet, but the original Roissy/Heartiste post that introduced the “dread” frame offered it only as an alternative to the preferred scenario:

    Meet your soulmate

    If you are extremely lucky enough to cross paths with your soulmate this is the easiest way to live the kind of romantic bliss that Hollywood movies exalt. A soulmate connection is the Golden Ticket to happiness and a dreamlike existence.

    Roissy puts the probability of this scenario at 1% to 2%.

    Realistically, there is a continuum between good relationships built on trust and horrible relationships in which vigilant game-playing is required just to keep the thing standing.

    It’s the rare man who would find himself on the good side of this spectrum and still want to expend energy deploying stratagems. So if a dude is dropping dread bombs on you, there’s a good chance that he doesn’t see you as his potential soulmate.

  • Ramble

    Im actually glad to be a woman dating than I to be a man.

    Charm, I once dated a girl who was smart and low-drama, who had told me that she was, basically, misogynistic. She considered girls, in general, to be unreasonable, overly emotional and manipulative.

    I asked her if she would have been preferred to be a man and she said, “Hell, no. I don’t need to put up with girls, you do.”

    I thought that was interesting.

    Charm,
    For the record, though, many girls, possibly a large minority, are reasonable and not particularly manipulative, but, the unsqueeky wheels do not get the grease. I understand you probably already know this, but it deserves repeating.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – I am aware that there are plenty of totally shitty guys out there, just as there are plenty of shitty women. And I would never look down or think badly of a woman that leaves an abusive husband. Any man that abuses his wife is NOT keeping his end of the deal, and that means she is free to assume the deal is off, and act accordingly.

    But, overall, I think my statement holds true. I was truly amazed that at 39 years old, with two children living with me, and being in bad physical shape (although MUCH better than I was prior) any woman would even look my way, let alone want to hitch their wagon to me. But, six months (give or take a little) after my separation I found myself dating a woman that was seriously into me. I saw myself has having far too much baggage to be a good choice, and it turns out what I saw as baggage she saw as proof that I had my shit together, and could handle myself. I felt like I was barely holding on some days, but it seems that my idea of barely holding on translates to safe and secure for many folks. I guess that isn’t so surprising when I consider how much I focus on things like security and comfort. MY threshold for concern is a hair trigger compared to most people, so it makes sense that MY idea of security is FAR more than most people would deem necessary.

    At any rate, my point is many men that find themselves single again after years of marriage, if they have the chance to find out for themselves, will be shocked and at least mildly pleased to find out they have options. LOTS of options. Woman in the same position have lots of options too, but most of them are for sex and no more. If they want the whole deal, they may very well find themselves on the “business” end of the market gun.

    and I won’t lie. Now that I know exactly what it is I have to offer, if I ever find myself single again, I’m going to be very specific about what I want, and at least a bit demanding about getting it. I’m not perfect, but the truth is I’m in a pretty good position in terms of what I have to offer. Perhaps my SO was smart enough to realize this on her own, and if so she lucked out. Because, if I had to do it over, I wouldn’t be so easy to snag.

    I’m not saying I’m unhappy at all with her! I’m just saying that had I known then what I know now, I wouldn’t have made it so easy on her. ;)

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    @ SW at 199:

    Sure, I agree with you totally that if that boundary is crossed once too many, the man is a fool and should be kicked to the curb like all the other idiots. She HAS to walk. Or she is dead in the water for the rest of the marriage.
    I am with you on that :-D
    But I am not knocking the PRINCIPLE of a man needing some Game to keep his relationship going.
    Although with a good woman who loves him, he shouldn’t need it longterm. It should be used sparingly, and only at the beginning of the relationship when they are both in the process of ‘drawing the lines in the sand’.

    The point someone else made about the surprise replacement of a woman being preventable by this ‘game’ at the start of the relationship is a very good one and kinda endorses what I am trying to say.

    It should serve as a useful exercise in any relationship where the goal is to study, study, study, verify, verify, verify before jumping into marriage.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JT

      But I am not knocking the PRINCIPLE of a man needing some Game to keep his relationship going.
      Although with a good woman who loves him, he shouldn’t need it longterm. It should be used sparingly, and only at the beginning of the relationship when they are both in the process of ‘drawing the lines in the sand’.

      I like Game for LTRs. It’s clear that Athol Kay has saved many marriages with his work. Keoni Galt saved his own by applying the concepts. I think where it gets tricky is in deciding which Game concepts should be adapted to LTRs, and how. Game was written by Mystery for ONSs and STRs. (IIRC his ultimate goal was to get a bisexual gf who liked threesomes, something I don’t think he ever achieved.)

      The point is that some tactics that work quite well in increasing your odds of getting a F close in a bar – like doing a take away and moving along to flirt with someone else – are meant to secure a commitment lasting one sex session. Or – here’s a popular one – introducing yourself to a couple of women and flirting primarily with the one you don’t want first, working the other one into a state of doubt about her own level of attractiveness.

      I have serious doubts about the efficacy of those kinds of tactics in producing harmonious and emotionally intimate relationships over the long-term.

  • Tom

    99.999% of all affairs start with “innocent” flirting…Just saying.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan – “The reason is that these views are gaining traction. Game has gone mainstream, and some of the more negative aspects are the ones being adopted quickly. It’s so much easier to take the “dark” shortcut than to the real inner work.”

    I’m sorry. I simply can’t resist saying: I told you so!

    And furthermore, I can’t blame one single man for taking this route if it works. If women don’t like it, they need to stop rewarding the behavior, plain and simple. And, that doesn’t mean bitch and complain that men are doing it, that means stop putting out for men that act this way. I promise you, the instant men playing dark game stop getting laid, is the same instant dark game will be put into retirement.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If women don’t like it, they need to stop rewarding the behavior, plain and simple. And, that doesn’t mean bitch and complain that men are doing it, that means stop putting out for men that act this way. I promise you, the instant men playing dark game stop getting laid, is the same instant dark game will be put into retirement.

      You get it! I wrote the post to exhort women to stop rewarding the behavior. Pointing out what men are doing is not bitching and complaining about it. I didn’t even address men in the post, much less attempt to shame them. I urge all women to walk away from such men. That won’t change the SMP as a whole, but it will perhaps enable women to avoid one of the larger red flags I know of.

      There is a corollary for men, of course, which is to select women whose hypergamy is not off the charts. That too should be easily detectable while dating.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    It’s like whacking a tree with a baseball bat when it’s dying to get one really good show out of it the next spring.

    Does this actually work?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s like whacking a tree with a baseball bat when it’s dying to get one really good show out of it the next spring.

      Does this actually work?

      Yes, the tree makes a lot of buds as it fights for its life.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted,

    I can’t blame one single man for taking this route if it works. If women don’t like it, they need to stop rewarding the behavior, plain and simple.

    I agree that women need to stop rewarding behavior they don’t men to keep exhibiting. But I’m not sure it’s fair to put all the onus on the women. Men should behave honorably because it’s the right thing to do, not because it’s what gets them pussy. I’m sure that as long as there are women of low character who reward bad behavior, there will be men willing to indulge, but let’s not give them a free pass. Guys who run dark game are assholes, whether or not it gets them laid.

  • deti

    I know I’m picking nits but I’m not sure I agree with this:

    “It’s so much easier to take the “dark” shortcut than to do the real inner work.”

    Not a lot of men can pull off hardcore dark game successfully. I’ve already said in an LTR that “dread” should be used only to regain control after she destabilizes things. Even that limited dread and doubt is not easy to pull off, and you have to be ready to follow through if she calls you on it.

    I think most men get the most gains from inner game and applying game cafeteria style to their relationships. And I actually think it’s easier than a man getting in touch with his inner asshole.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Not a lot of men can pull off hardcore dark game successfully.

      You may be right that most men won’t be successful at it, which over time should diminish attempts to use it. However, there’s no doubt that every guy in the SMP has figured out he can potentially benefit from ignoring the girl he likes, hitting on her BFF in front of her, negging her like crazy (and badly), trying to rack up some ONSs just to get to a critical mass of social proof, etc. It’s been documented extensively online, it’s hit the MSM – there are tons of comics popping up about Game now. It’s on TV, central to some characters’ MO in various shows and sitcoms.

      Inner game is really a process of extensive self-development, something that few young men have the time, inclination or patience for.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan – “Keoni Galt saved his own by applying the concepts. I think where it gets tricky is in deciding which Game concepts should be adapted to LTRs, and how. ”

    I will take this a step further from my own experiences trying to apply game to my LTR. Not only is it difficult to determine which game tactics will work in a relationship, and how to adapt them to it, but it is damn hard to even figure out which ones will work at all on the woman I am with. As a single guy picking up women in bars, that is never a concern. You walk up, do your song and dance, and see if it works. If not, you move on. If so, you get laid. But, you NEVER find out exactly what did the trick. All you know is that something you did worked.

    In a relationship, if you get shot down, you are down for the count. It isn’t like you can simply move on the the next target. So, it takes time, planning, and effort to even figure out what works, and what needs to be tossed out. Then, and only then, can a man start to refine the technique.

    I am still in the “what works or not” phase, and it is frustrating as hell some days. I’m getting comfortable with at least some of the tricks that seem to generate a positive result, and to be honest I’m beginning to think I have enough tools to work with.

    I can tell you that, as you seem to believe, the “flirting/dread” tactic can get results, but those results are short lived and can cause enough damage that using them is pointless. I once said that I intentionally “flirt” in from of my SO from time to time, but that isn’t entirely true. I do what you suggested: I’m polite, nice, and sometimes engaging with other women, but I DO NOT take that to the level of real sexual innuendo or even blunt sexual aggression. She responds well to that, partially because I believe it shows that I am capable of being social, despite my propensity to dislike it, and it shows I *could* probably chat up enough women to get a date or two if necessary. The fact that I would be uncomfortable doing so is irrelevant, as long as she knows I could manage it.

    I view this as a game tactic, because on my own, I wouldn’t even consider chatting a stranger up, let alone a female one. Not because I’m afraid to, but because I truly just don’t care to talk to people. However, it is in my best interest to occasionally prove to her (and myself perhaps) that I *can* indeed do it. And, I can see the results very clearly. So, if my relationship was really heading down fast, I might consider using some real dread to change that course. But, as you suggested, I would never suggest it to be deployed in a healthy relationship. I think the better idea for a guy is to simply show his ability to connect with other people easily, and make sure some of those people are women. As you suggested, most women would see that as confirmation of his options, and act accordingly without the added issues dread would entail.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      You and I are very much on the same page on this one. I like how that feels. :)

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    JM – “Men should behave honorably because it’s the right thing to do, not because it’s what gets them pussy.”

    LOL, man, are you actually saying to me that men should act more honorably? I think you know that I agree with you 1000% there. FOR ME, life is all about duty and honor above all else. But straight up, if I had learned about game before I married at 25 years old, I can’t say how things would have gone. In all truthfulness, when I first took the red pill, I literally felt like woman cheated me my entire life. I had a period of time there where I wanted revenge, serious, real revenge. Of course, I was with my SO at the time, and was logically aware of how absurd that thought was. It didn’t change how I felt at all. I can’t even say for sure what would have happened if I had simply been single. I’ve already admitted that if I ever find myself single again, I’m not taking the dating market lying down. I will never let a woman get an easy ride from me, even if she is a great person and deserves my respect, admiration, and love.

    What I’m saying here is: I consider myself to be a pretty moral and honorable man, and I can’t say for sure that I wouldn’t have gone out and run shit tons of dark game to get my ‘revenge’. If *I* can’t be sure of how I would behave, I can’t expect other guys to do any better. Because, as I’ve said many times here, I do believe I am more moral and honorable than most of the people on earth. I judge people my my own standards, and in this case, I can’t say MY standards are strong enough to keep that temptation at bay.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I don’t blame people for choosing the dark path. I think most young people dabble in a bit of darkness. Even my husband was manipulative before he became more spiritually aware.

    Some darkness can be a catalyst toward good. Jesus Mahoney did the casual fling thing and realized it wasn’t for him. Other times people get mired in it, because they get obsessed by the temporary highs from using dark tactics.

    I would agree with Charm that “most women” are not great, but really, most men are not too great either. I would have rather remained single than be with a dark type.

    What Susan said: “I’ll write for the sliver of humanity that doesn’t wallow at that level” is brilliant. Really, that’s the best we can do here. Choose smartly and make decisions for our individual selves. That sliver of light will seem blindingly bright in the sea of darkness, but that is also the point.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Hope – “I would agree with Charm that “most women” are not great, but really, most men are not too great either. I would have rather remained single than be with a dark type.”

    See? This is exactly why I say most “people” simply suck. I simply accept that fact, and hope that individual people prove me wrong. I have friends, so I know there are indeed good, solid, “thinking” people out there. But, I have to tell you, most of the time people prove me right…

  • Charm

    @Ramble

    I chuckle to myself because this place is making me misogynistic and sexist against women. Lol. But I dont even think its that. I think that its just me acknowledging it all to be true. Men and women used to just accept the ugly truths about the opposite sex and theirs and not fight it too much. It seems that now everyone is in extreme denial about it.

    And yes, I know a fair portion of women arent too bad. I know a lot of very sweet girls, though they are still pretty clueless as to why they do things. But the women who are the worse get the most attention as they draw them most attention to themselves. They also have a tendency to spoil those sweet clueless girls from the inside out.

    Most women are too demure to let the female harpies know what it is. But I’ve never had a problem with those bitches and Ill put them right back in their places. They don’t even bother coming at with that attitude. I can’t tell how many bitchy women are surprisingly nice to me.

    @Susan

    Lol, Im telling you. I don’t play around. That guy, I think has low self esteem. He was trying to bring me down to his level and it didn’t work. At the time I didn’t know exactly what he was doing but it made me feel bad about myself and it only took a few times of him doing it before I said screw it and laid it all out for him. Im sure he didn’t too much like being put in his place by a girl 5 years younger than him.

    The second guy I dated was sweet, but when he got mad he was one of those people that would call me ridiculously dispresctful names. Now my self esteem is pretty solid so it didn’t hurt my feelings at all and I never yelled back. But when he’d calm down he’d try to apologize and I accepted them a couple times. But then I told him if he talked to me like that one more damn time we were gonna have a problem. It never happened again. But he too had low self esteem and was self deprecating and we werent too compatible. Im ENTJ and he was ISFP which is the exact opposite.

    Re Dread

    Okay heres what gets me about dread:

    1. The way Roissy tells it, all men should use dread a fair portion of the time with their women so that she always has that doubt in her stomach. Its like feeding a person just enough to keep them alive but never enough to get them full. I can’t imagine how many men that read Roissys blog like its the damn gospel and are out there ruining some really good women with this shit. When dread is used on a good woman (or man) I think its unacceptable. The way it made your mom feel is unacceptable. I think that in that case the shit goes too far. Contrary to all of the horror stories of marriage, I think there are a fair share of married couples (like yourself and athol) who are very respectful of one another because they have the sense and decency to do so. People like Roissy rarely acknowledge those people.

    2. In the case where the women is a soul sucking-venomous-too fat to be bitching so much-harpy then I advocate the hell out of it. I can’t stand how women will shit on their husbands in public like they aren’t worth a damn. A lot of American women truly believe that their shit don’t stank and they can do whatever they want and all men will put up with it. I personally feel bad for those men and try to be nicer to them by default as if to try and balance evil with good in the world. I’d personally allow myself to be recruited to piss off someones wife by flirting with them. I might even flirt with someone openly (even if I wasn’t actually interested) just because their SO was treating them like crap as if to smack her right in her damn face.

    I just can’t sit by and watch something like that happen to someone. I have this need to do something. I dont know if you know about the enneagram but Im a type 8 and apparently this behavior is pretty common among 8s. When ever someone is the outcast, outlier, black sheep, or is being brow beaten by someone else I always step in an try to empower them even though I have no stake in it. I try to build the weak up. I think this is why I can’t leave the manosphere. Its too much injustice against men. The fact that so many women blindly participate in it makes me dislike women as a whole.

    @Susan again Re being tough

    I told you that I worked with a young cad for a while. He was in the triple digits and what not. Anyway, I could tell upon first meeting him that he was really into figuring women out like it was some kind of game. He was used to being able to crack the code of a lot of women relatively easily for most of his life. So when I worked with him, we got to talking, and not 5 mins into the conversation he says “You’re not like most women are you?” and I said “Nope”. I think he thought his “magic” could be worked on me and he kept trying subtly but it never did. He’d tell me about all the women he’s banged and how experienced he was like was supposed impressed. I just smiled and nodded. He never did “crack” me but he kept trying, I think just to see if he could, but it never happened. I could see from his facial expressions that it annoyed him, but he didn’t realize that I peeped his game a mile away.

    When I said that I didn’t like cads, I meant it. I crossed his ass right off that list and he stayed crossed off. He was a good person otherwise.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Charm

      OK, thanks for elaborating on that. Sounds reasonable.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    deti,

    I think your situation was a bit different. Your wife hit you with two mack trucks after 15 yrs old marriage. 1. I’m not attracted to you, and 2. I’ve fucked a lot more guys than you think.

    She shouldn’t have felt safe in that moment. Any sensible man would be considering his options at that moment.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Precisely. These are not loving or admirable marriages in any way. Committed men or women cheating, or sending the normal mating cues that they’re sexually available – which is what flirting is – are behaving in a way that is destructive to the relationship.

    And I will say to society and the marriage rate in general people losing hope in marriage and considering cohabitation as good as alternative is also in part because marriage seems to be less attractive I mean if people is still flirting and looking it seems better not to close the deal ever. Not good for us as a whole.

    BTW, when a guy quickly finds a replacement, most women don’t regard him as a player but as a shallow jerk. It’s a red flag for many women as it indicates that the man was never really bonded to his ex or might be incapable of bonding.

    Depends I have a friend that has been neglecting her husband for ten years now and is pretty much biding her time for divorce we are very sure he is putting up with her and probably is just waiting for her to do the official paperwork to move with another woman, there has been proof that there is something going on at work but at this point she doesn’t care or worst she is just preparing to blame him for her leaving. So I will say depends on the individual case it will look fast for outsiders but we know the details and we know this had been brewing for at least 5 years now, YMMV.

    I put up with alot of crap from people in my family as a kid so I’ve had more than my fill of bullshit to last a lifetime.

    My father is a really good man, husband and father but he also knew my mother had a very unhappy childhood and she will rather live under a bridge and feed us bread and water than put up with cheating or/and abuse. Is important to be certain of people’s boundaries early on.

  • deti

    I dabbled in ONS and attempts at hardcore pickup years ago in college. I had two college friends who were great at it. I tried to pick up bits and parts of what they did; they even tried winging for me, but I was terrible at it. It was exhausting.

    I was a miserable failure most of the time — mostly because I had absolutely no clue what I was doing, nor any idea what (if anything) women found attractive in me enough for an SNL or an STR. And then when the inevitable “thanks, but goodbye” happened, I had no idea what I had done or why it was now over.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      Escoffier, OTC, and others have said much the same thing. You’re all great mates, and if you’ve been taken for granted, I agree that a wakeup call is needed. Personally, the fact that there are some men who just can’t go into Dark Triad mode gives me hope for the human race.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    What Susan said: “I’ll write for the sliver of humanity that doesn’t wallow at that level” is brilliant. Really, that’s the best we can do here. Choose smartly and make decisions for our individual selves. That sliver of light will seem blindingly bright in the sea of darkness, but that is also the point.

    Very well said. Did you have the u/s yet?

  • OffTheCuff

    It’s a race to the bottom. It’s an embrace of the lowest, most base aspects of human instinct. And the real problem is this: Good relationships cannot take root in such shallow soil. There is no tending and feeding.

    That is true. Women, you’re welcome to fight men down all the way to the bottom – but once both we get there, you’re going to realize that men don’t really mind being there all that much.

    I seriously doubt any of this is going mainstream, though. You’ll know it’s “mainstream” when women have been hurt enough, they actually start valuing betas en masse again, like Ana describes in DR. I don’t think we are even remotely close to that point yet.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I seriously doubt any of this is going mainstream, though. You’ll know it’s “mainstream” when women have been hurt enough, they actually start valuing betas en masse again, like Ana describes in DR. I don’t think we are even remotely close to that point yet.

      No, we’re not close yet. But I have seen considerable shift in the discussion, the tone and awareness of these issues in the last three years. I used to have to define Game to my peers. Now every mother (of daughters) knows exactly what it is. That’s inconvenient, because I then find myself trying to defend it to very skeptical women.

  • deti

    “She shouldn’t have felt safe in that moment. Any sensible man would be considering his options at that moment.”

    Hence the dread. And trust but verify. I was ready to walk. In the future, if I have to walk, I will. (That’s why women should not lie about their partner counts.)

    I guess this is what I mean when I say inner game is easier. It’s not easy to go hardcore asshole on a woman, esp. a wife or an LTR, when all your upbringing, conditioning and training says you cannot, should not, MUST NOT do that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      Hence the dread. And trust but verify. I was ready to walk. In the future, if I have to walk, I will. (That’s why women should not lie about their partner counts.)

      This reminds me of something. I’ve seen guys say, “Ha! That’s no threat, she’ll just rape you in divorce court.” (or whatever). There are many reasons why many women would rather not get divorced. When my husband uttered words about “remaining in this marriage” it scared the hell out of me, even though I was guilty of taking him for granted. I believe that a threat to walk can be very powerful when the woman has reasons to prefer staying married, including loving her husband, loyalty, having kids, and finances (many women don’t make out like bandits on that front, and having two households is obviously less efficient). If the marriage is in serious trouble due to infidelity or years and years of going through the motions, the threat will not be effective. And of course, there are probably some spouses who would jump at the chance. I’ve heard of this happening – one person threatens divorce in a fight, not really meaning it at all, and the other person quickly agrees that’s the best course.

  • J

    You know why this works? And why it’s a good idea for men? Women LOVE drama. If you don’t give it to them, they will seek it elsewhere.

    Yeah, some women do. OTOH, when younger women ask me, “How do I know this is real love?” I tell them that real love isn’t a roller coaster ride. If you feel good, warm and happy most of the time, it’s love. If you feel sad and insecure, it’s not love, it’s obsession.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If you feel good, warm and happy most of the time, it’s love. If you feel sad and insecure, it’s not love, it’s obsession.

      This is another area where Game is making things harder for women (which is often the point). I used to say “If you’re wondering if he likes you, he doesn’t.” Now that’s not so true anymore if the guy is spitting game. I guess I would tell women to give it a few weeks – if he likes you it will be moving forward in some way. If it’s not, move on. And this is also an excellent reason to delay sex – never mind monogamy, is the guy even interested?

  • Tom

    “Ive fucked a lot more men than you think”
    _______
    A lot of women could claim that.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Deti – “I was a miserable failure most of the time — mostly because I had absolutely no clue what I was doing, nor any idea what (if anything) women found attractive in me enough for an SNL or an STR. And then when the inevitable “thanks, but goodbye” happened, I had no idea what I had done or why it was now over.”

    My issue with “game” is and has always been that my goal with a woman was never simply to get laid. If I was interested in a woman, it was for a LTR, not a quick romp in the sack. I now can see how that is a bad tactic, and also see why I was never in any way successful at my few “pickup” attempts back in the day.

    Every single one of my LTR partners were women I met through friends. I did not cold approach a single one of them, and looking back its fairly obvious why they were attracted to me. Here I was, this new, strange guy, hanging out with people she knew and trusted, looking comfortable and confident. Of course, at the time they had NO idea just what a rare occurrence that is. But, the truth of the matter is, that is MY best venue. I shine the most when in small groups of people I am comfortable with. the trick for me now is: How do I find ways to show my “social proof” when not in my venue? I’m finding that I have to act and behave in ways that are a little uncomfortable (like chatting up strangers from time to time). I’m not crazy about it, but in truth it is a very small thing to do, and if it works, why should I complain?

    It is also interesting to note that prior to taking the red pill, I thought I knew exactly what I had to offer women that they would want. Now? I’ve learned that most of those things don’t mean a damn thing. The stuff that does? I’m finding much of that are things about myself I took for granted. Knowing what it is that makes me attractive has certainly gone a LONG way towards helping me better understand how to market myself if/when I should ever need to again.

  • J

    Oddly, in three of about ten situations I witnessed like this over the years, the husband ultimately confessed he was gay …

    Cripes, that’s a new one on me, but I cosign the rest of your post.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Cripes, that’s a new one on me, but I cosign the rest of your post.

      It was so strange – all three cases in our old neighborhood. And each of these guys was super buff and well dressed (should that have been a clue?). I didn’t know any of the wives well enough to ask them if they ever suspected, but I’ve often wondered.

  • http://rationalmale.wordpress.com Rollo Tomassi

    It occurs to me that Don Draper’s mother was a hooker. I think it would be interesting to learn about the life experiences and personality traits of men who engage in extramarital flirting.

    You do realize Don Draper is a fictional character, correct?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You do realize Don Draper is a fictional character, correct?

      Rollo, you don’t read for comprehension. I called him Mad Men’s Don Draper in that same comment. I mentioned him because Vox Day invoked him as a successful example of what you propose. I simply find it interesting that Matthew Weiner (creator of Mad Men) gave Don the womanizer a tortured history with his own mother. In other words, the extramarital flirting, followed inevitably by cheating in his case, is disordered.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    deti,

    Right. But in your case, it wasn’t a false sense of dread. It wasn’t “game” so much as you being a man. Being a man is what good game is in my eyes, but it’s different from what Roissy’s advising when he tells men to instill dread. What you did came from your inner game. Which is awesome, btw.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “Ive fucked a lot more men than you think”
    _______
    A lot of women could claim that.

    Meh, I’d say that there are far less lying sluts than you seem to think. They’re out there, but I don’t know that they’re the norm.

  • Charm

    Men should behave honorably because it’s the right thing to do, not because it’s what gets them pussy.

    Now Ted, I see where you were coming from in response to this quote. I absolutely believe that the red pill is a necessity for men, but once swallowed and your eyes are opened, I think that to go and contribute to and reward the behavior of these shallow women through game is ridiculous. Lets say a man learned game and used this game to “score” a bunch of ONS with a bunch of loose harpy women that he’d never date. Whats the point? You got laid, but in the process you just validated to those women that their behavior is okay. This translates to women who are not “like that” that this is what men want. No woman thinks, “Oh he’s just sleeping with her, he doesn’t care about her.” When women are in their early 20s all they know is that those girls are getting attention and they aren’t. And it sucks.

    I read a post on the Rawness and he was talking about how men rail on and on about not being able to find suitable wives and mothers but they continue to feed the problem in the mean time. Not saying you do this or that most of the men here are doing it. But there are alot out there who are.

    Im not dating current and don’t plan to for a while because Im leaving the country, but when I do date, I will not reward any bad behavior from men at all. Not for a second or a minute. I ascribe to the traditional style of dating where people actually spend a considerable amount of time getting to know one another before dating( not holding out while banging alphas in the mean time). Sure, you could argue most people aren’t doing this, and thats fine. But Im going to do what works for me. Most people are shitty anyway so Im not going to follow behind their lead.

    I know Jesus gave it a go and chose to opt out which is very admirable. But Im with Hope, I will go without as long as it takes to find someone that I can build a respectful relationship with. I can stand a drought. It not like its he hardest thing Ive ever had to do. Plus this is the 21st century and vibrators exist Lol!

  • deti

    Ted D:

    Funny how little we knew and how much we learned. It never occurred to me that some women just wanted a fling for a few weeks or months. Never occurred to me a woman might just want to bang, and that I happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right friend and I didn’t screw it up.

    Looking back, things like preselection; social proof; cocky-funny; negging, peacocking, and displays of confidence were operating but we had no idea they were. I didn’t know any slut tells and didn’t understand hypergamy at all other than it applied only in marriage (which I don’t agree with, BTW. I think women always see men through hypergamous lenses and are always comparing their men to other men).

  • J

    Ted #209

    After 35, almost everyone has baggage. Smart people like your SO realize that HOW you handle your baggage is a DHV. That women come to value that stuff over looks or “alphaness” as they age is a mark of learning from life experience.

    Were I to lose DH and find myself on the market again, I wouldn’t look for a “perfect soulmate” who matched all 987 points on my checklist. I’d look for a solid guy who had a track record of surviving what life has thrown at him without bitterness. That you found your SO really doesn’t surprise me. It makes perfect sense to me, in fact.

  • Frizey Lim

    I truly believe in this: A woman will lose attraction for her husband if she doesn’t believe that he is actively desired by other women. This is the law of competition. Do you compete with other girls?

    -Frizey

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Frizey

      I would disagree about “actively desired.” We like to know that our husband is attractive to other women. That’s like getting a high five from our competition. What we don’t want is for our husband to happily respond to that vibe, or cultivate it in any way. Then we’re shamed in front of our competition.

      Women flirting with our husbands: OK
      Our husbands taking the bait: Not OK

  • Escoffier

    I’m with deti, the majority of men are not cut out for dark game.

    Susan the key word in your post above is “potentially.” Sometimes ignoring a woman just makes her equally disinterested in you. Other times, it hurts her feelings to point that she concludes you are not worth any of her time. I.e., it doesn’t always work.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @EScoffier

      Susan the key word in your post above is “potentially.” Sometimes ignoring a woman just makes her equally disinterested in you. Other times, it hurts her feelings to point that she concludes you are not worth any of her time. I.e., it doesn’t always work.

      Yes, that’s why guys are not going to get magic bullet results. They don’t really know what they’re doing without studying Game, and they don’t know how to read “the target” and calibrate accordingly. Over time it will just drive the sexes further apart. Guys will feel very frustrated that Game isn’t working, and women will see assholes everywhere they turn.

  • J

    Depends I have a friend that has been neglecting her husband for ten years now …. YMMV.

    Actually, I wouldn’t red flag that guy, Ana. That relationship has been dead for a long time. I can see how he’d have been over it a long time ago.

    A male friend of mine is divorcing a diagnosed crazy after a 30 year marriage. She kicked him out. He was depressed at firest, but he bouncd back in about 3 weeks. It didn’t negatively affect my opinion of him because I knew her and what a relief not dealing with her issues on a daily basis was for him.

  • Escoffier

    Oh, and of course, simply ignoring a woman who is already not interested in you will in most cases not going to make her interested in you. 90% of the time she probably won’t even notice.

    I have been ignoring Jennifer Connelly since Labyrinth and guess what I’ve never gotten a single IOI out of her …

  • Tom

    A man should not have to envoke jealously in his woman to keep her on her toes. A man who has to do that lacks creativity, cunning, and inventivness.
    Most women WANT security in their lives. That goes for financial, emotional and relationship. The trick is to be the man she needs, every day, so that she doesnt lose her desire to stick around. That need is going to be different for different women. A smart man figures that out and adjusts. Some women need to be led, in life, in decisions, in the bedroom. Some women do not need the be led as much. All women want to know they are being heard (not just listened to), and respected. Think of your relationship as the lines on a freeway its ok to occationally bounce from one side or the other without crossing the lines. An occational correction in steering is all it normally takes (communication) to keep your ride running stright and smooth.

  • Tom

    before JM jumps me…evoke…lol

  • deti

    “ignoring the girl he likes, hitting on her BFF in front of her, negging her like crazy (and badly), trying to rack up some ONSs just to get to a critical mass of social proof,”

    Eh. That isn’t dark game. That’s oat-sowing at best, douchebaggery at worst.

    I think dark game is truly sociopathic shit. Dark game is openly cheating and lying about it. Or cheating and excusing it when caught. Or cheating and letting yourself get caught just to see how much you can get away with. Or deep machiavellian manipulation, treating your woman like a marionette with you pulling her strings. Or manipulating her into sexual conduct like threesomes, BDSM, etc. when she clearly doesn’t want to. Or threatening her with a breakup every time she doesn’t do what you want. Or hatef**king a ONS.

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    I feel like the PUAs and the OMGs are evolving a symbiotic relationship in the SMP.

    The rush-to-the-bottom with women for casual sex acts as a filtering mechanism. While the PUAs are out there banging every chick they can game, future OMGs are looking for the exceptions to the rule, often carefully doing due diligence based on intelligence provided, directly or indirectly, by the PUAs.

    My brother (“Andy Ironwood”) was a victim of hypergamy that could have been avoided had he paid better attention to the Puerarchs who were banging his bride the night before the wedding. The Puerarchy cleans out the “weak and naive”, leaving those worthy of consideration for long-term relationships because they aren’t hanging low enough on the tree. The good, high-value women (suitable as wives and mothers) tend to be less prone (but not immune) to both the allure of the Bull Alpha and the transitory pleasure of a Faux Alpha PUA.

    Depending on men to be “honorable” when it comes to such things demonstrates a misunderstanding of the term in this context. Getting laid is almost always an honorable goal. It’s how you go about it that shows your character. I’m not going to disapprove of the PUA’s pursuit of Single Game, because ultimately it serves my interests as an OMG. Indeed, I’m going to assist, when possible, as long as I don’t see an ethical conflict (like facilitating marital infidelity).

    The SMP is a big watering hole, and there are all sorts of predators and prey out there. Some are lions, some are hyenas, and some are just really thoughtful Alpha Wolves who understand that the caribou with the flashiest tail isn’t necessarily the best dining. But it sure is nice to see who runs when the lions roars, and who scampers when the hyenas approach . . . and who might make the best Mama Wolf.

  • Odds

    Men should behave honorably because it’s the right thing to do, not because it’s what gets them pussy.

    We should, but without properly setting up the social system, all it will accomplish is creating a carousel that rewards the ones who break the rules. Honor in a den of thieves is wonderful in stories, less so in reality. Gotta fix the system first – and one of the most important steps for fixing it is to get girls to stop rewarding the guys who lack good morals.

    Really, what system is in place to punish guys who don’t live honorably just because they should? The worst they have to deal with now is that the 10% of Intuitive women don’t like them, and that some small fraction of honorable beta men won’t like them (most betas will instead strive to learn from them). Not a terribly compelling consequence.

    Personally, I’ve made the honorable choice most of the time in my life, and will probably continue to do so, but it’s only served to convince me that no good deed goes unpunished. Show me a world where the good and honorable types actually have a major influence on the social consequences of dishonor (i.e., not modern-day America); until then, I can’t blame any guy who just stoops to doing what works.

    It’s so much easier to take the “dark” shortcut than to do the real inner work.

    Gotta go with Deti on this one. I’ve tried to pull off dark game and I cannot keep it going. I don’t even like the concept – it works, if you can hack it, at least in the short term, but it’s not me. And I’m hardly special. Most beta guys have a hard time with dark game. If we could do it easily, you’d think we would have started doing it naturally the fourth or fifth time being the boring nice guy failed us (if for no other reason than annoyance).

    You’ll know it’s “mainstream” when women have been hurt enough, they actually start valuing betas en masse again, like Ana describes in DR. I don’t think we are even remotely close to that point yet.

    Seconded, but with the caveat that women will always be most attracted in the most primal way to alphas. That they “value” betas is a sign of pragmatism, not of a profound shift in their desires. Call me crazy, but I don’t want to be loved just because I’m the first guy not to treat her like dirt; I want her to have started out with the goal of being treated well. Obviously I’m still going to work on improving all the good alpha traits as well, for very pragmatic reasons – if you’re banking on her valuing beta traits, then you’ve only got her loyalty for as long as she values reliability and decency over excitement. Would rather hedge my bets.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Odds

      Obviously I’m still going to work on improving all the good alpha traits as well, for very pragmatic reasons – if you’re banking on her valuing beta traits, then you’ve only got her loyalty for as long as she values reliability and decency over excitement. Would rather hedge my bets.

      It’s one part alpha, one part beta. All of either one is a disaster.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @J
    I know it was one of those odds situations when she started talking about how bad her husband was and then when she actually gave details we pretty much were ????!! WTF! “So he is bad because he bought you an imitation Gucci bag instead of an original? and you refuse to find work because the only jobs available are low class” Yeah is amazing how some people are not aware of nothing but their “needs”.

  • J

    And each of these guys was super buff and well dressed (should that have been a clue?).

    Ummmm…yeah.

    I didn’t know any of the wives well enough to ask them if they ever suspected, but I’ve often wondered.

    I’m always amazed when people don’t see stuff like this coming. I guess you don’t see what you don’t want to see.

  • Odds

    blockquote FAIL in my last post.

  • J

    That sounds truly unfair. If your family needs you to work, you work. As for the Gucci bag, I don’t understand designer labels. There was a time that I used to covet Coach bags–stylish, good quality, classic, durable. Then they started putting their damn name all over the bag. Now they’d have to pay me to carry their product–literally. I’m not their freaking free billboard. (I actually voiced that to a saleswoman who looked at me as if I was crazy.)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Odds,

    We should, but without properly setting up the social system, all it will accomplish is creating a carousel that rewards the ones who break the rules. Honor in a den of thieves is wonderful in stories, less so in reality. Gotta fix the system first – and one of the most important steps for fixing it is to get girls to stop rewarding the guys who lack good morals.

    I agree that the system needs to be fixed and that an important way to do it is to convince women not to reward such men. That doesn’t absolve men of their responsibility to be honorable, though.

    Really, what system is in place to punish guys who don’t live honorably just because they should? The worst they have to deal with now is that the 10% of Intuitive women don’t like them, and that some small fraction of honorable beta men won’t like them (most betas will instead strive to learn from them). Not a terribly compelling consequence.

    Personally I prefer the “intuitive” types, so that’s all I really need to concern myself with.

    I don’t care about punishment (unless someone tries to fuck with someone I love). I just care about doing my thing and surrounding myself with people I respect and admire.

    Personally, I’ve made the honorable choice most of the time in my life, and will probably continue to do so, but it’s only served to convince me that no good deed goes unpunished. Show me a world where the good and honorable types actually have a major influence on the social consequences of dishonor (i.e., not modern-day America); until then, I can’t blame any guy who just stoops to doing what works.

    Honor isn’t worth much if it’s adopted because it “works.”

    And for what it’s worth, “honor” is an alpha, not a beta, trait.

  • Jason

    I think dark game is truly sociopathic shit. Dark game is openly cheating and lying about it. Or cheating and excusing it when caught. Or cheating and letting yourself get caught just to see how much you can get away with.

    This…

    Or deep machiavellian manipulation, treating your woman like a marionette with you pulling her strings. Or manipulating her into sexual conduct like threesomes, BDSM, etc. when she clearly doesn’t want to. Or threatening her with a breakup every time she doesn’t do what you want.

    and this are two completely different things. Stop treating women like they don’t have fully developed minds. No one can MAKE anyone do anything. Even powerful manipulation isn’t direct force. Get real.

  • deti

    “And for what it’s worth, “honor” is an alpha, not a beta, trait.”

    Not in this SMP. If you had said honor used to be an alpha trait, I would have agreed.

    Damn you Jesus M. I swore to myself I wouldn’t get cynical on these threads anymore.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan – “I believe that a threat to walk can be very powerful when the woman has reasons to prefer staying married, ”

    The trick here is: Reasons to prefer staying married. Often times, the woman in question has checked out of the marriage long before it got bad enough for the man to speak up, which is why Athol carefully explains to men that after they improve themselves, they also need to be prepared for a divorce if that improvement simply isn’t enough to change her mind.

    Also, I think you and I are on the same page far more than you believe. On an individual level, I have put the things I’ve learned here, at MMSL, and everywhere else in the ‘sphere to use to keep my currently healthy relationship solid as possible. As part of such a relationship, I truly do agree with much of what you say. However, if I was single, I can’t say it would be exactly the same. It is your purpose to help young women, but in some ways that purpose does not align with what is best for men. When we talk in generalities, I tend to side with men. Not only because I am male, but also because you tend to side with the women. Also, I am still working through some of these issues in my own head, which means I sometimes play “devil’s advocate” to get a better feel for where you and the other women here are coming from.

    I’ve said before that I admire your conviction and mission, and if that wasn’t true I wouldn’t even bother to visit. But, there is a hint of truth to the ‘sphere comments of your “femalcentric” views of all this, and I think when we find ourselves on opposite sides of a fence, it is generally directly over the line between male vs. female. I think we both want the same thing: for people to find and keep good long term relationships, and to raise children in loving, stable homes. The only issues I have with anything you’ve written is in the details.

    I’d also love to think that with the right group of people, this entire issue could be tackled head on at the social level and fixed. But, the truth is there simply aren’t enough of “those” people out there to get that ball rolling. Yet. Time will tell if that changes or not…

  • Jesus Mahoney

    deti,

    Not if you honor yourself as much as others.

  • deti

    Jason:

    Women do have fully developed minds, are rational actors, and responsible for their conduct at all times. That’s not to say that deep, powerful manipulation doesn’t work on some women.

    And some women in relationships like this submit to that manipulation. Some women allow that manipulation to form the basis for a relationship. He gets what he wants; she gets used. She’s responsible for that. It speaks much worse of her than of him in this anything-goes SMP.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti, @jason

      Women do have fully developed minds, are rational actors, and responsible for their conduct at all times. That’s not to say that deep, powerful manipulation doesn’t work on some women.

      Deceit definitely works, because it withholds crucial information required for making a sound judgment.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I think it speaks poorly of both of them.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Deti – ““And for what it’s worth, “honor” is an alpha, not a beta, trait.”

    Not in this SMP. If you had said honor used to be an alpha trait, I would have agreed.”

    BINGO! That is 100% true. There is little to no incentive for anyone to act with honor and loyalty in most cases these days. I agree with JM that being “honorable” because it works is disengenuous, but at the heart of it all, humans are inherently selfish. As the idealist I am, I would LOVE to believe honorable people are that way because it is right, but the truth is, most of them are probably only honorable because:
    1. it works for them
    2. they are afraid of the consequences of NOT being honorable.

    There is no compelling reason in this day and age to use “right” as a reason to do anything. Morality is so objective these days that I bet it would be damn difficult to get 10 people to agree on if something was right or wrong. In such an environment, how can you honestly expect anyone to put others interests before their own? Hell, I instinctively WANT to do it, and in many cases I prevent myself from doing so BECAUSE I know it will be repaid with shit. I’ve learned to NOT be as honorable, because in many cases it is nothing short of a hindrance when dealing with people that have absolutely no concept of the word.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    DOH – I meant subjective, not objective. Please don’t punish me Jesus!

  • Rum

    I agree that the percentage of men who can easily run dark game is not a lot. For one thing, it is contrary to deeply inborn male instincts towards group/gang formation and inter-personal loyalty. Stick with your buddies and all that. And isn’t a GF/LTR like a buddy? That is the default male attitude and getting to the place of realizing that just how differently men and women experience the world – and that treating women as if they were men=FAIL — is a long journey.
    However, I fore-see an avalanche of increased awareness about Gamology. I mean, this can only go one way. The moms and W. Knighters might hate on game wisdom to their hearts content but it will not change anything about the hard-wired circuits in their daughters hind-brains. Given circumstances that allow those instincts a chance at free expression (the pill, economic independence, no slut shame-ing, etc.) successful gamers will swim in a poon ocean and the rest will have to watch from the side-lines. At least it will definitely look like that. And when guys hear game wisdom and notice that it explains all of this more or less perfectly they may not go all the way over to the Dark Side but they sure as hell won’t pedestalize anything about the female gender ever again.
    There is no stopping this because it reflects reality. There is never going to be much real world evidence against the tenets of Game. In the old days they were merely kept hidden by layers of factors that we have spent the last 50 years dismantling.
    So here we are.

  • Emily

    People just need to stop dating douchebags. (And this applies to both genders.)

    People aren’t going to improve unless there are incentives.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’ve learned to NOT be as honorable, because in many cases it is nothing short of a hindrance when dealing with people that have absolutely no concept of the word.

    Meh, I’d rather maintain my integrity.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    JM – “Meh, I’d rather maintain my integrity.”

    My work around for this is to try to minimize my interactions with people that aren’t honorable. When that can’t be helped, I pretty much assume no one has honor and go from there.

    Always the half glass empty guy. :P

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Besides, the only person that really gives a shit about my integrity is me. I don’t see a problem with discarding honor when dealing with people that have none. I’m simply treating them the exact way they treat me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’m not saying turn the other cheek and all that. If someone crosses my boundaries, then I’m going to act. Honor just means acting in accord with your principles. If your principles say to bitch slap anybody who messes with you, then go for it.

    As you said, morality is subjective.

  • Herb

    @Susan: That’s not fair to Charm. She’s a young woman, she knows nothing of unfaithful military wives or surprise abortions. Please keep in mind that many of the women here are in their early 20s, recently out of college. In her experience, the kind of injury described in this post might be the cruelest thing.

    I will give you the military wives parts because most Americans are so divorced from the armed services it’s almost a different world. My ex-sister-in-law said until she met me she the military just sat around doing nothing waiting for a war. That was two decades ago. I’m sure it’s even a wider gap now.

    But the defence of “in their early 20s and haven’t seen this” is problematic. Because by that age women are starting to pull these stunts and men know from direct or indirect experience of at least one kind.

    Sure, most women do too (such as using dread) but somehow it doesn’t seem to penetrate. It’s the same current that let Hillary get away with her women are the primary victims of war comment. Men’s harm against women are the focus of regular campus events at the extreme end and often the plot of movies and TV at the lesser end.

    I think it is vital for young women to be have that perspective shaken up if we to prepare them for the SMP, especially one where they won’t marry until their late 20s and are thus likely to encounter men wounded at least as much as they are. In fact, after this weekend I think formal, honest relationship training would be a good idea instead of the word of mouth system we have at this point (I think HUS is a first-step/proto version of this as are Athol Kay’s and other blogs).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      I like your comment, you make a very good point about Americans being clueless about the military. I sat next to a young woman on a plane recently. She was a prison guard – first at Guantanamo and most recently in Afghanistan. I was spellbound as she told me just what her life and her work were like. She also told me that the amount of sex going on between male and female soldiers who were both married to civilians in the states was significant. She said it’s a real problem – lots of affairs and drama among the troops. Anyway, just talking with her I realized that even though I’ve always been sort of a news junkie, I really didn’t have a clue.

  • ex-nice-guy

    Load of hamster wheeling.

    Chicks will be dreaming of leaving their non-flirtatious “boring” loyal boyfriend in no time.

  • Escoffier

    “Chicks will be dreaming of leaving their non-flirtatious ‘boring’ loyal boyfriend in no time.”

    I’ve been with my wife as either husband or BF for 15 years now and I can’t recall ever openly flirting in front of her, either conciously to induce dread or otherwise. Yet she’s still here.

    I know, she’s cheating, my kids aren’t mine, she’s already meeting with the divorce lawyer, the papers will be served tomorrow, blah blah blah ..

  • Herb

    We’ll disagree then. I’m well aware more and more men are adopting this strategy, which is why I felt compelled to write about it. We’re all reloading our weapons – it will be a fight to the death at this rate.

    Sadly, I think the next group of babies in the US to grow up without the SMP being a fight to the death won’t be born until 2020 at best. We’re so far down the reloaded road I suspect the only way out is through unless you’ve found a place in one of the subcultures where the dynamics are different (mostly, but not all, religious). Still, even those subcultures carry their own prices and are subcultures for a reason. Most people won’t be at home there.

    Thinking about what you’ve said about the girls who have been at your kitchen table, it seems like you’re already providing first aid and often explaining to them they’re in a battle to begin with. More and more men their age watched fathers and older brothers go through it and are coming hard and armed for bear and shooting first, often at women not yet engaged. It’s a positive feedback loop and about 2020 we’ll get a generation of women who grew up seeing what this generation of men did.

    After the total destruction of that phase hopefully they’ll call a truce and provide a better example for the boys AND girls they raise.

  • Wudang

    In the case of men I think a bit of jealousy can make them more attracted to their wives. Think about sperm wars. When the man has suspicions his wife has strayed he is extra motivated (horny) to have sex with her in order to get killer sperm in there to kill of competitor sperm or to get his fastest swimmers to outswim his and to use the head of his penis to get his sperm out. I have read somewhere that when a man is jealousy aroused he ejaculates twice as much sperm cells as he normally would. This is in large part the attraction of swinging where the guys aren`t just motviated to swing in order to experience variety with other women but very motivated to see their wife with other men to get this extra form of arousal. Many men I have talked to that would never dream of swinging or having a MMF threesome with their girl has confirmed to me that jealousy does make them extremely aroused. The same goes for a lot of the women I have talked to. It is not uncommon that couples include fantazies about third parties or cheating or talking about past experiences in order to just create jealousy arousal.

    Although creating a little bit of jealousy to spike his interest might be beneficial and creating more might be very usefull ina relationship crisis, I am pretty sure creating jealousy often will backfire. Maybe it will always backfire. In the case of men I do think most just hate it although it can create arousal and interest so I think anything more than very modest and ocasional creation of jealousy will backfire in that regard with a man. It can also easily backfire in making him act way to needy and clingy and reduce his alphaness. If I understand them correctly the guys that post at fastseduction.com see creation of jealousy as a betaization tactic that women try out to see what kind of power they have over their man. If he does get jealous she might be happy at first and reward with sex because she sees it as proof of his feelings for her but a bit later her interest is diminshed because it was indeed a sign of him being less alpha and in control than if he had not shown jealousy because it shows he sees the other guy as a threat and has doubts on wether he can keep her. It might also backfire in the sense that men perceive it as a form of disrespect and respect is very important for them.

  • Wudang

    ” Sometimes women generate their own anxiety. Be careful, the fact that you experience anxiety doesn’t mean he’s actually manipulating you.

    Fair point. Women can definitely make themselves crazy by going headlong into the drama and imagining the worst. ”

    When I talk about their relationships and dating with female friends most of that time is spent going through all their fears and theories about what he meant by doing this or that and what does this or that mean and theor worries about endless amounts of stuff 80% of which turns out to have been needless fears. The more feminine they are the more there is of this. All in all I`d say they actually like this. It`s not just with their relationships with men though. A lot of women just worry a lot and often enjoy worrying and talking to friends about all their worries. I actually kind of like this in women unless it gets completely out of hand. It allows me to be the calm one and calm them down.

  • CornSyrupy

    I think a tiny bit of dread is important in a long relationship, but just enough to stop you from taking each other for granted. It should be a small rock in your shoe as you walk though life together, a little reminder to take the effort to keep each other happy, but not be a shot to the kneecap that draws all of your attention and stops you from doing other things.

    A few years ago I came very close to divorce, and I stopped wearing my wedding ring. Even after we reconciled I made that choice because the ring was a symbol to me of my complacency – subconsciously I knew she would stay so I was no longer trying to be a good husband and father – and that was something I wanted to change.

    The secondary effect of dumping the ring was that my wife quickly realized that I had a lot of options, and she needed to make the changes I was asking for if she wanted us to stay married. Frankly, I’m a great catch, and as word spread of our impending separation, she saw the sharks in the water much more quickly than she expected. She said at one point, “There’s going to be a line of women bringing you dinners and ‘consoling’ you about your divorce.” She even made air quotes when she said, “consoling.” She was right though, I had had a surprising number of casual inquiries already. She’s never believed the EPL fallacy, as she’s seen too many of her friends end up as cat ladies after a middle-age divorce that was supposed to solve all their romantic problems, so she acknowledged she would have a much more difficult time finding my successor.

    Long story short, we acknowledged we both were complacent and taking each other for granted, talked of the changes we wanted to make, followed through and actually made those changes, and stayed together. We are happier than we ever have been in our 20 years of marriage, and that little sampling of dread for my wife continues to play a critical part in our choice to maintain our marriage.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @CornSyrupy

      I love that story! Thanks for sharing it. Your wife is fortunate that she figured out the reality so quickly. And you didn’t have to “manufacture” messages of availability – it was a natural consequence of your announcing a separation.

      She was smart, too, to understand that your SMV was now higher than hers. She’s lucky you decided to stick around.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Speaking of calming down, I’m still at the hospital, but the ultrasound went well! Healthy baby, normal heartbeat, good growth and we got to see the little baby squirming around on the screen. Definitely big sigh of relief. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      Thank you for letting us know! My heart was pounding when I saw you’d left a comment. I know you’re nervous about all the monitoring you’ll be getting – any kind of test is always nervewracking – but it’s like getting 5 star service. I’m so happy for you!

  • Herb

    Good news Hope…

  • Herb

    @Charm:But the fact is that most women are absolutely clueless. They don’t know what they want, they don’t know why they do the things they do.

    In my experience this describes most people, not just most women.

    Very few people are encouraged to do the self discovery to know themselves, their wants, their needs, or their reactions.

    That is half of the SMP issue period: we do things because they feel good now not because they fit into a longer term plan. I wish I’d learned that before my late 30s. I’d probably not be divorced (although in large part because I would not have married the woman I did) and be where I am career wise at 45 at 35 instead.

    That you have realised this and are working on not being it puts you way ahead and not just in the world of romance.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope

    That’s terrific news. I’m happy for you and your husband. :)

  • J

    I’ve been with my wife as either husband or BF for 15 years now and I can’t recall ever openly flirting in front of her, either conciously to induce dread or otherwise. Yet she’s still here.

    Hmmmm. I’ve been with my husband as either wife or GF for nearly 25 years now and I can’t recall his ever openly flirting in front of me, either conciously to induce dread or otherwise. Yet I’m still here. Must be a trend.

  • J

    Wonderful news, Hope. Happy to hear it. Thanks for posting it here.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @J
    Is only her and her husband, but yeah I don’t get the whole “I’m worth what I’m wearing/own” I dislike materialistic people as a whole. I just want enough money to feed myself, my kinds the husband, leave under a decent enough roof and have ice cream once in a while if I ever get more than that then I might spent it on luxuries like travel and charity but God knows that if someone starts to judge me for my accessories that person is going in the short list of people I don’t mind not talking too really fast, YMMV.

    @Hope
    Great news! :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      I thought of something re sex after a baby. I recall reading that the father’s oxytocin levels spike, causing him to focus on the newborn, and less on sex with his partner. This probably helped ensure infant survival. Sex frequency does go down after the birth of a child, but some of that is “built in,” and things return to normal soon enough.

  • ex-nice-guy

    Bottom line- a man should flirt whenever he can, no matter his situation. Keeps him sharp and his skills ready.

    On a cerebral, internet article level, women will never admit it.

    But on a visceral level, in the presence of the overconfident flirtatious man, they love it. Whether they know it or not.

  • SayWhaat

    Awesome news, Hope!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Susan
    I remember that study I’m trying to get as much sexy time as possible now just to save up for the drought. ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      Late in my pregnancy, I felt like a beached whale and it was awkward, but where there’s a will there’s a way. And my husband thought it was sexy. I can’t imagine why unless it’s the very obvious fertility.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “And my husband thought it was sexy. I can’t imagine why unless it’s the very obvious fertility.”

    A lot of men (including yours truly) find their own wives or girlfriends very sex when pregnant, but most don’t find other women sexy when pregnant (and those who do probably spend all their time on preggo fetish sites). A lot of women get even more into sex too. I can only speculate that it evolved to ensure bondedness in the couple throughout the pregnancy so that he would still be around when the baby comes to help out.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    “I’ve been with my wife as either husband or BF for 15 years now and I can’t recall ever openly flirting in front of her, either conciously to induce dread or otherwise. Yet she’s still here.”

    Add me to the list with J and Escoffier. I’ve been married a long time. My husband has never consciously induced dread into the our relationship, and neither have I. We’re not going anywhere.

    “Frankly, in my opinion, it would be kind of ridiculous to directly verbalize “Hey, you better realize I am an attractive, high-value man who could get a bunch of other women”.

    @Mike C. lol, yes, that would be ridiculous!

    “How many guys out there get blindsided with the “I’ve lost attraction for you” deal in their LTRs? So it is incumbent on a guy to try and stay attractive, but also indirectly remind the woman of that from time to time in case she is getting a bit complacent in that regard.”

    You know what we do to avoid getting blindsided? We talk, constantly. If I’m not feeling the love, or he isn’t either…if the attraction waxes or wanes, we talk about it. We tell each other how we feel.

    I agree it’s important for both parties to maintain their attractiveness quotients for each other, but I personally don’t need a reminder via dread game (making a pass at another one of my friends, ignoring my calls, flirting openly and brazenly with another woman in a social venue in my view, which is what Roissy advocates in dread) to know that my husband has value.

    He can elect to walk away from me at any time, regardless of whether or not he attracts other women. Other women don’t have to be in the picture in order for me to understand that. The loss of his companionship is my incentive.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    He can elect to walk away from me at any time, regardless of whether or not he attracts other women. Other women don’t have to be in the picture in order for me to understand that. The loss of his companionship is my incentive.
    Cosign this. I think most important than dread is to know that if certain promises get broken for not justifiable reason a man will walk away. I know my husband loves me but he was really clear of three things that will make him walk away from me even if is to go MGTOW route which he was already preparing himself anyway. The only woman I need to worry about is myself, That can be pretty effective, YMMV.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Thank you all! :)

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “And you didn’t have to “manufacture” messages of availability – it was a natural consequence of your announcing a separation.”

    So…it’s better to announce separation than flirt with the waitress?

    Wow. A man better be Really Damn Sure before pulling out a big gun like that!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Sue: “And you didn’t have to “manufacture” messages of availability – it was a natural consequence of your announcing a separation.”

      So…it’s better to announce separation than flirt with the waitress?

      Of course not. I was simply observing that the lesson was learned without either party deliberately manipulating or exploiting the other. I’ve already acknowledged that a marriage up against the wall may need extraordinary measures – that’s not my niche, so I couldn’t say.

      Again: this post criticizes extramarital flirting as a technique for keeping one’s marriage healthy and one’ wife interested sexually. It’s been recommended as a life-long strategy for containing female hypergamy. And I’m calling BS on that.

  • Tom.s

    Dark game tactics are simply treating the symptoms of our current market place. They may work, but I’d rather solve the cause. I’m glad I’ve found Susan to actually address, breakdown, and solve the problems we face.

    I’ll be holding out for a girl who’s actions are inline with her statements.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tom.s
      Thanks for leaving a comment, and welcome to HUS!

      I’ll be holding out for a girl who’s actions are inline with her statements.

      Wise man.

  • Sandy

    2 Susan Walsh
    =======================
    A man who does this is displaying low relationship fitness, in one of two ways:
    He is genuinely interested in generating sexual attraction with other women, even while professing to love you.
    He is using this behavior as a ploy to keep you on your toes.
    If he’s employing the first strategy, he’s a cad. Enough said.
    =======================

    That’s completely bogus. Both men and women regardless of relationship status like to receive positive attention, including sexual attention, from reasonably attractive people.

    =======================
    If he’s employing the second strategy, he is operating from a mindset of lack, or scarcity.
    =======================

    That’s illogical

    =======================
    This is ironic, since he is attempting to secure your sexual attraction by conveying abundance. However, he is waging the battle to secure the Position of Least Interest, which means that his win is your loss.
    =======================

    How exactly a woman loses if she knows that she got a highly valuable man?

    =======================
    There must always be a winner and a loser. That is a very poor paradigm for a successful relationship.
    ========================

    That’s based on an assertion that a woman doesn’t want a man of high value, as if instead of hypergamy we have hypogamy

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sandy

      Both men and women regardless of relationship status like to receive positive attention, including sexual attention, from reasonably attractive people.

      I have said there is nothing wrong with enjoying positive attention, even sexual, from members of the opposite sex. The manipulation comes when one responds to that attention with a positive sexual vibe, or even worse, initiates the sexual vibe in the first place. That’s totally out of bounds in a committted relationship.

      If he’s employing the second strategy, he is operating from a mindset of lack, or scarcity.
      =======================

      That’s illogical

      He’s flirting with other women to keep his wife interested. He doesn’t believe that she will value him if he can’t make her feel anxious about his going outside the marriage for sex. Instead of being an attractive partner, he’s constantly attempting to prove his attractiveness. “Hey look, I got Charlene from next door to flirt with me!”

      How exactly a woman loses if she knows that she got a highly valuable man?

      If he is successful, he gains reassurance that his wife desires him, and that other women do too. Win win. She gains doubt that she is enough to hold her husband’s interest, worries about socializing where other women will be present, and has sex with him to save the marriage and reclaim his attention. That’s a very, very unenjoyable way for a woman to have sex. It’s a massive loss for her – she already knew her husband was attractive, now he’s using it to instill dread that he may cheat or leave.

  • Sandy

    2 Susan Walsh
    ==================
    I am not criticizing men for inadvertently causing anxiety. I am criticizing the behavior of using it as a tool to generate sexual attraction and keep a woman on her toes.
    ==================

    What is the basis of that criticism? According to stats more then half of married women in the US prefer reading to sex with their husbands, and many of them put out very infrequently with their men. Does it look like an environment with too much sexual attraction?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      According to stats more then half of married women in the US prefer reading to sex with their husbands, and many of them put out very infrequently with their men.

      Link please, that contradicts information we’ve seen here recently.

  • Sandy

    It looks like when women display high SMV in public, by using make-up, high heels, breast implants, botox, plastic surgery, sexy clothes, and therefore attract sexual attention from other men, which their husbands or boyfriends can easily detect, it’s A-OK, it’s all good. However when men receive sexual attention in public, it’s Dark Game From Deepest Pits Of Mordor

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sandy

      A beautiful woman (which is not what you described, IMO) will of course be noticed by other men. What’s important is how she deals with that. Is she an attention whore, or does she use her beauty to make her husband proud? If men flirt with her, does she communicate clearly that she is not interested in fostering sexual attraction, or does she respond to make her husband jealous?

      That behavior is the exact thing I’ve described and criticized here. No man should put up with it, and I would advise any man to avoid dating a woman like that.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I’m pretty sure none of the happily married females on here do the makeup, high heels, botox, implants, plastic surgery or sexually revealing clothing routine to attract attention from other men in public. Just sayin’.

    Likewise my husband doesn’t flirt with other women in public. He’s in no danger of losing my attraction. Trust me on that one. ;)

  • Passer_By

    @sandy, Susan, et al

    No offense, but this debate strikes me as sort of silly.

    Sandy: Looking good is not the same as actively flirting and appearing to pursue other people.

    Susan, and others: If the guy is appearing to pursue others so as to make her feel humiliated (i.e., others are wondering how she puts up with it), it’s obviously too much. If he is just being charming enough to elicit a certain amount of female admiration and, therefore, produce the subconscious tingle in his SO, then all should be good. He has to find the balance so as not to make his SO feel disrespected or humiliated. Doesn’t seem that complicated.

    And, women, same goes for you. Don’t flirt to the extent your man feels disrespected or that his status will be lowered (whether in your eyes or anyone else’s eyes) by virtue of what of you’re doing. He won’t ever forget, and you deserve whatever you get.

    So let it be written, so let it be done.

    Now, back to my wine, dammit. Sheesh!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      Well said, Counselor. So reasonable that I wonder how anyone could disagree, frankly.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    So let it be written, so let it be done.

    Mmm Tenth commandments?

  • Sandy

    2 Passer_by

    ===============
    Sandy: Looking good is not the same as actively flirting and appearing to pursue other people.
    ===============

    What’s up with “appearing to pursue other people”, where did you get that? I see how female efforts to get sexual attention and validation in public are getting a free pass, but male behavior which elicits sexual attention is declared Evil

  • Lokland

    I get where Sandy is coming from on this but tbh the only women I know in LTRs who slut it up/dress up on a regular basis are not LTR material.
    Most tend to dress conservatively. My fiance only pulls out sexy-causal-business w/e it is look at my behest.

  • Sandy

    2 Hope
    =============
    I’m pretty sure none of the happily married females on here do the makeup, high heels, botox, implants, plastic surgery or sexually revealing clothing routine to attract attention from other men in public. Just sayin’.
    =============

    Also most married females on here don’t have hypergamy, have unconditional love and eternal bliss. That’s fabulous. I’m talking more about what happens in the US, not in the small Unicornland. Outside of Unicornland women in general:
    1) Like sexual attention from guys in public
    2) Dress and use make up in order to create it

    And that’s completely normal and acceptable, there is not one voice in the media which criticizes it

  • ex-nice-guy

    let’s face it, the only proper equivalent to a man not flirting with other women is for the woman to wear a burqa. Case closed. If you’re not gonna wear a burqa, woman up and deal with it.

  • Ted D

    Sandy – “And that’s completely normal and acceptable”

    Not in my relationships. Yes, when we “go out” my SO desses up, sometimes including heels. But at no time does that come close to slutty territory. See, the problem is most women have forgotten how to dress sexy with class. The only look they can pull off is “high class call girl”, at best.

  • Sandy

    2 Ted D
    ============
    Not in my relationships. Yes, when we “go out” my SO desses up, sometimes including heels. But at no time does that come close to slutty territory. See, the problem is most women have forgotten how to dress sexy with class. The only look they can pull off is “high class call girl”, at best.
    ============

    A woman doesn’t have to dress slutty to attract sexual attention in public. “Classy” look which might include includes a nice dress, high heels, makeup, extensive hairdo, tan, botox, fake nails, plastic surgery, breast implants creates a lot of sexual attention in public for many girls.

    There is a simple test, we have case 1 when a a girl stays home for the whole day with her husband/boyfriend, and case 2 when she goes out to a party. In which case she will have better appearance, based on extensive preparation? Almost all women will look significantly better in case 2 and prepare for a party. So that tells us that women in general want to get sexual attention in public and actively seek it

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sandy

      When my husband and I go to a party, he is always pleased when I take care with my appearance, and he is proud to bring me to the party as “his.” It’s the same idea as the original post. He enjoys believing that I will be attractive to other men, while knowing with total certainty that I will do nothing to embarrass or shame him – that I will clearly maintain my identity as his wife and refuse sexual attention from other men. (In truth, as I’ve mentioned, that kind of attention totally skeezes me out. If a man flirts with me in a social situation, I walk away and stay away.)

      And by the way, the fact that my husband still feels this way even though I’m 55 is an enormous gift of love and loyalty. I’m grateful.

  • M3

    Susan

    A beautiful woman (which is not what you described, IMO) will of course be noticed by other men. What’s important is how she deals with that. Is she an attention whore, or does she use her beauty to make her husband proud?

    I generally find this is very true. Simply depends on the health of your relationship and the level of trust vs. insecurity.

    I loved heading out with my exwife to events and functions that forced us to dress up a bit. She could turn heads and got lots of attention. She’d smile, talk, interact – she was the extrovert of our union. I always had complete trust in her wrt to fidelity and never kept her on a leash (back when i was still obviously displaying alpha behavior). I was never jealous. At the end of the evening going home, i’d always let her now that she was the star of the show and every guy had checked her out numerous occasions. And she’d always put on a coy smile and let me know that we probably wouldn’t make it to the front door before getting down to business.

    That was during the best of times.

    During the worst, i don’t think i could imagine even trying to entertain such an event. She’d probably have left with another dude lol.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    So that tells us that women in general want to get sexual attention in public and actively seek it.

    You sure you hang out with married/comitted women? Here most women in parties with mutual friends wear casual clothes, flat shoes and little to no make up. Me as Latina felt completely embarrassed when I attended to the first board game night with a full face of make up, and sort of nice clothing, showing some cleavage, the type of clothing I wore when my husband used to visit me in my country. They didn’t said anything but I felt so out of place. Never again. Now I go out with a lot more simple clothing and no make up just to look the part, Caesar’s wife and all that…YMMV.

  • Sandy

    2 Susan Walsh
    ==================
    I have said there is nothing wrong with enjoying positive attention, even sexual, from members of the opposite sex. The manipulation comes when one responds to that attention with a positive sexual vibe, or even worse, initiates the sexual vibe in the first place.
    ==================

    What does it even mean? It’s OK to have sexual attention, but not OK to have sexual vibe. Sounds a lot like new-age mantras – “let the good energy flow through you, and bad energy be deflected and absorbed by Gaia”

    ==================
    That’s totally out of bounds in a committted relationship.
    ==================

    Says who? What legal, moral or societal norms are violated?

    ==================
    He’s flirting with other women to keep his wife interested. He doesn’t believe that she will value him if he can’t make her feel anxious about his going outside the marriage for sex. Instead of being an attractive partner, he’s constantly attempting to prove his attractiveness. “Hey look, I got Charlene from next door to flirt with me!”
    ==================

    That’s wrong. You write “Instead of being an attractive partner, he’s constantly attempting prove his attractiveness”, he is not “attempting to prove”, he’s creating attraction. Female preselection is a powerful attraction trigger which leads to genuine attraction

    ==================
    If he is successful, he gains reassurance that his wife desires him, and that other women do too. Win win. She gains doubt that she is enough to hold her husband’s interest, worries about socializing where other women will be present, and has sex with him to save the marriage and reclaim his attention. That’s a very, very unenjoyable way for a woman to have sex. It’s a massive loss for her – she already knew her husband was attractive, now he’s using it to instill dread that he may cheat or leave.
    ===================

    If a woman takes her man for granted, she will lose attraction to him. Sex will be infrequent and mediocre. She will look for “opportunities” outside

  • Sandy

    2 Susan Walsh
    ================
    Link please, that contradicts information we’ve seen here recently.
    ================

    According to iVillage study (there are many others like that with comparable numbers) 9% of married women don’t have sex at all, and 23% have sex 1-3 times per month, only 21% of married women have sex more than 10 times per month 63 percent of married women would rather sleep, watch a movie or read than have sex

    http://www.ivillage.com/married-sex-survey/6-b-165966#165967

    Given that most of the wives in the US have tepid interest in sex, I find it very disturbing that Susan Walsh blasts techniques which create sexual attraction

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sandy

      You sound like someone who hangs out with White and Nerdy. Am I correct?

  • Sandy

    2 Susan Walsh
    ==============
    A beautiful woman (which is not what you described, IMO) will of course be noticed by other men. What’s important is how she deals with that. Is she an attention whore, or does she use her beauty to make her husband proud? If men flirt with her, does she communicate clearly that she is not interested in fostering sexual attraction, or does she respond to make her husband jealous?

    That behavior is the exact thing I’ve described and criticized here. No man should put up with it, and I would advise any man to avoid dating a woman like that.
    =====================

    In order to get public sexual interest and attention a woman has to look pretty and be out at a party. That’s it, her SMV is defined mostly by her looks. For a man, it’s completely different. His looks play a small role, and he has to be socially dominant to create his SMV. So women create sexual attention by dressing up, make up, boobs etc. Men create sexual attention by being socially active and dominant when going out. So you want to bash men’s way to enjoy sexual attention while giving a free pass for women doing exactly the same

  • Emily

    Even if we put aside the whole “dread” issue, flirting with other women can still seriously backfire. If the other women get creeped out/don’t respond well to the flirting, then it’s a DLV.

    If a guy’s attractive enough to generate sexual interest from other women, then it will happen anyways without any special prompting on his part. (And even if the wife/girlfriend pretends not to notice, believe me she does!)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Emily

      If a guy’s attractive enough to generate sexual interest from other women, then it will happen anyways without any special prompting on his part. (And even if the wife/girlfriend pretends not to notice, believe me she does!

      Exactly. And if he responds graciously but not flirtatiously, everyone, including the women flirting with him, will think more of him. Especially his wife.

  • Sandy

    2 Susan Walsh

    ================
    When my husband and I go to a party, he is always pleased when I take care with my appearance, and he is proud to bring me to the party as “his.”
    ================

    That’s great. Some men are very jealous and they will create a lot of drama when they see their women talking to other guys or dressing up for parties. Not all women experience anxiety attacks when they see their men socialize with other women when out. The idea that anxiety attacks caused by completely socially acceptable behavior are somehow normal is bogus

  • Sandy

    2 Emily
    ==============
    If a guy’s attractive enough to generate sexual interest from other women, then it will happen anyways without any special prompting on his part.
    ==============

    Yeah, right. In Unicornland a guy might stay in a corner at a party while not talking to anyone and generate a lot of sexual interest from women. In the real world, however, socially active and dominant guys get attention, male wallflowers are not noticed at all

  • Sandy

    The whole idea that social dominance and preselection techniques are designed to create anxiety is completely wrong. Those techniques are designed to create sexual attraction. If a woman experiences anxiety attacks, she needs to get into therapy pronto, she cannot blame a man for her internal problems

  • Emily

    Just to use an example:

    When I first started dating my boyfriend, I noticed that every time he posted on Facebook, there were the same handful of girls who would always comment/”like” whatever he was posting (female beta orbiters?) Thankfully when it became obvious that he had a girlfriend (moi), they stopped doing this. (Can you tell that I’m an avid Facebook stalker? lol).

    He’s never had to use “dread” tactics 0r deliberately make me jealous for me to figure out that girls like him. If anything, the fact that he seems so oblivious to it makes him even more irresistible.

    (And for the record: I know that HUS is full of “Unicorns”, but I’d probably rank my own hypergamy levels as pretty average compared to the general female population).

  • Emily

    >> “In the real world, however, socially active and dominant guys get attention, male wallflowers are not noticed at all”

    Maybe, but a misplaced flirting attempt can also get a guy labelled as “creepy”. (This label is unfair most cases, but I wouldn’t have very much sympathy for a married man who gets the “creepy” label after hitting on his wife’s friends.)

  • Emily

    I guess the moral of the story is that there are ways of being dominant and socially active without having to overtly flirt with everybody.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    “the moral of the story is that there are ways of being dominant and socially active without having to overtly flirt with everybody.”

    Bingo, Emily. :) My husband is socially dominant and active in a group of all guys. I noticed him right away because of that. His social groups are still basically all guys, and I love it when he works the group.

  • ex-nice-guy

    Emily said
    ===
    If a guy’s attractive enough to generate sexual interest from other women, then it will happen anyways without any special prompting on his part.
    ===

    This is a great example of why men should give little to no credence to what women say, and give alot of it to what they actually do. That statement is probably the worst advice any man can get.

  • Escoffier

    I agree completely. I don’t flirt in front of my wife and we’re still married. I am watching what she does. No drama, no problems, no hint of dissatisfaction.

  • Sandy

    2 Emily
    ==================
    Maybe, but a misplaced flirting attempt can also get a guy labelled as “creepy”. (This label is unfair most cases, but I wouldn’t have very much sympathy for a married man who gets the “creepy” label after hitting on his wife’s friends.)
    ==================

    Misplaced ANYTHING can be interpreted in a bad way

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Escoffier, you must live in Unicornland like the rest of us. :P

  • Charm

    So Sandy, I dont get it. Are you just playing devils advocate or what?

  • OffTheCuff

    Emily: “I guess the moral of the story is that there are ways of being dominant and socially active without having to overtly flirt with everybody.”

    Those ways are:

    1. Be attractive
    2. Don’t be unattractive.
    3. Don’t be unattractive.

    Follow those, and you’ll never fail!

  • Sandy

    2 Charm
    =================
    So Sandy, I dont get it. Are you just playing devils advocate or what?
    =================

    What exactly don’t you get?

  • Richard Aubrey

    Some questions: Manufacturing dread is a deliberate act while in a relationship.
    How is that connected to a man not appearing needy? Some guys aren’t, and don’t look needy. Some guys may be but put on an act.
    Is it possible a guy could be sufficiently alpha that he has natural game and doesn’t know it? That, in fact, he may not even know that some women are really into him when he thinks of them as casual dates or congenial colleagues?
    If so, it would seem likely that at least some of the things he would do without thinking of them as game, or even thinking of them at all, would look as if he were manufacturing dread.

  • this is Jen

    Wow how did I miss this? I go out of town for a few days and bam! This is a subject that is near and dear to my heart for soooo many reasons. I hardly even know where to begin

    I would have used my logical brain to say dread=bad a few years ago, but then I experienced it working. Totally threw me for a HUGE loop.

    I’ll try to be brief.

    Its an old story- high school boy Ihad a giant crush on finds me and I am totally flattered. Turns out he has been happily married for many years -has been born again- but still a great cocky funny flirty type. he live thousands of miles away. point being he is no real threat to my marriage-but I do enjoy the correspondence and attention.

    Hubby-not so much with the enjoying

    He says “hmmm let me show you what its like” starts chatting up his first girlfriend GASP she responds enthusiastically (how dare she??) (ftr she took it waaay too far) and even tho I was sitting with him when the conversations were going on and privy to all of it it STILL had a huge effect

    our sex life explodes

    I cannot understand why why WHY this is happening….but it is

  • this is Jen

    March 17, 2012 at 11:07 am

    @Sandy

    A beautiful woman (which is not what you described, IMO) will of course be noticed by other men. What’s important is how she deals with that. Is she an attention whore, or does she use her beauty to make her husband proud? If men flirt with her, does she communicate clearly that she is not interested in fostering sexual attraction, or does she respond to make her husband jealous?
    —————————————————-

    A group of my husbands college friends came out to our town recently and we all went out one night ( I hadnt ever met any of them previously) Honestly, I wanted to just relax at home, but knew that once I was out I’d have fun.

    Was talking with some of the friends and the one guy said said to me ” you have 4 kids, youre a (insert job title here) and you look like that?–lucky (insert hubby’s name here)!

    Made it worth the effort to go out and be charming to complete strangers.
    Of course I mentioned it to the hubs later :)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @This is Jen
    You have four kids?! I’m hating you now so much. I wanted to have four but I’m poor and old so I have to settle for two :(

  • this is Jen

    I’ve been in many social situations where some married man was too attentive, placing his hand on my lower back, getting too close, going for excessive eye contact. Many of these men were cheating alpha types. I’ve had it happen on the Little League field, at PTA meetings, charity benefits, block parties and in church. We women have words for men like this: skeeze, sketchball, slimy, snake, cheater. I’m sure that every one of those guys thinks he’s just the hottest, when in reality he’s making a fool of himself and his wife when he acts that way.
    —————————————————————–

    Ugh this reminds me of a dressy work function I attended with my husband years ago … my dress revealed a small portion of my back. His boss came over to our table and stuck his hand into my dress, while looking at my husband and said in what seemed to me to be the creepiest pervy voice ever ” Is this yours”?

    still makes me shudder

  • this is Jen

    Many men I have talked to that would never dream of swinging or having a MMF threesome with their girl has confirmed to me that jealousy does make them extremely aroused. The same goes for a lot of the women I have talked to. It is not uncommon that couples include fantazies about third parties or cheating or talking about past experiences in order to just create jealousy arousal.

    ——————————————————

    I love hearing about my husbands pre marital exploits- its a total turn on for me. He thinks I’m nuts.

  • kareem

    Susan,

    Thought-provoking post. I’m curious: what makes you think that flirting has anything to do with the woman in a relationship? I see it as an example of a guy enjoying chatting with a woman he finds attractive, and vice-versa.

    We both know that you find other people attractive, and so does your husband. Flirting is a harmless expression of that attraction, and almost certainly has nothing to do with you.

    Why make it so?

  • this is Jen

    Of course I mentioned it to the hubs later
    . 355 Anacaona March 18, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    @This is Jen
    You have four kids?! I’m hating you now so much. I wanted to have four but I’m poor and old so I have to settle for two
    ——————————————————————

    I had 2 when I was young and 2 when I was much older. Its a completely different experience.
    I think the little ones keep me young -not sure tho, having another 12 year old girl is a challange sometimes.
    And I am not looking forward to getting 2 more thru college- the first 2 were in at the same time for 2 years ( UVA, and Ithica-NOT cheap)

    Most other couples my age are empty nesters…its hard sometimes finding alone time with hubby.
    THan again -my son and I went sledding today—no way I would thought of doing that if I was an empty nester

  • Sandy

    2 Kareem

    ============
    I’m curious: what makes you think that flirting has anything to do with the woman in a relationship? I see it as an example of a guy enjoying chatting with a woman he finds attractive, and vice-versa.
    ============

    We have a general trend in society to criminalize various male behaviors in the context of relationship.
    For example according to City Of Huntington Beach behaviors such as:
    1) Pushing partners into decisions
    2) Always insisting on being right
    3) Lying, breaking promises
    4) Not expressing feelings

    are domestic violence and therefore illegal. Despite the fact that those behaviors are written in gender-neutral language the enforcement system related to domestic violence very rarely prosecutes women. Some women might want to add “chatting up a waitress” to domestic violence lists, by creating justifications that socializing and bantering in public somehow constitutes “instilling dread” or other form of “psychological terrorism”

    http://www.huntingtonbeachca.gov/Government/Departments/pd/crime_info/domesticviolenceinformationresource.cfm

  • this is Jen

    Author: jim
    Comment:
    “Ugh this reminds me of a dressy work function I attended with my husband years
    ago … my dress revealed a small portion of my back. His boss came over to our
    table and stuck his hand into my dress, while looking at my husband and said in
    what seemed to me to be the creepiest pervy voice ever ” Is this yours”?

    still makes me shudder”

    ______________

    Bet if the boss looked like brad pitt you would have got a little wet.

    —————————————————————-
    @Jim
    I get your point, but FTR Brad Pitt grosses me out. He’s weasely looking to me. Now- the guy in the John Carter movie=swooooon

  • ex-nice-guy

    Bottom line is that this tactic can work for men because when women see a man eliciting positive responses from other women they’ll feel more attracted to him. They can’t help it. This includes the man’s partner, in spite of any jealousy.

    In this age of government-sponsored female hypergamy (with its concomitant female ego-inflation) men need to be ruthless. This tactic is another tool available should it be necessary.

    .

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com/2012/02/she-feels-so-damn-good.html Ted D

    My takeaway here is: find out what my SO considers “too much” and stay just under that threshold for maximum effect with minimum emotional trauma. It seems that everyone has a different idea of what flirting is, so best idea is to know what it means to your GF/wife.

  • Lulz

    And did your mother cheat on your father for years, then divorce him, take half his money, and not allow him custody to see you anymore?

    No?

    So which part are you saying is a bad thing for guys to do again?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And did your mother cheat on your father for years, then divorce him, take half his money, and not allow him custody to see you anymore?

      No?

      So which part are you saying is a bad thing for guys to do again?

      I wouldn’t wish their marriage on anyone. There’s a whole lot more to being happy in life and marriage than not getting divorced.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Now- the guy in the John Carter movie=swooooon

    I just saw that movie. Taylor Kish is not my type but the movie was reaaaaally good. Any Sci-fi lover here totally should see it, and I will recommend in 3D wich I can barely see the point in this movies it makes all the sense in the world!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I spent five seasons of Friday Night Lights swooning for Tim Riggins, played by Taylor Kitsch. He’s Canadian, and I read that he’s one of four brothers, all models. I think he’s pretty close to physical perfection.

  • this is Jen

    Author: Ted D
    Comment:
    My takeaway here is: find out what my SO considers “too much” and stay just
    under that threshold for maximum effect with minimum emotional trauma. It seems
    that everyone has a different idea of what flirting is, so best idea is to know
    what it means to your GF/wife.
    ——————————————————————

    I think youre dead on here, Ted. Just the right amount is perfect- too much and I’d go packing for sure. But I am here to say that “some” can bring fireworks-which I hate admitting.

  • this is Jen

    Author: Anacaona
    Comment:
    Now- the guy in the John Carter movie=swooooon

    I just saw that movie. Taylor Kish is not my type but the movie was reaaaaally
    good. Any Sci-fi lover here totally should see it, and I will recommend in 3D
    wich I can barely see the point in this movies it makes all the sense in the
    world!

    —————————————————————

    perfect,—you can have brad pitt, leave taylor all for me :)
    taylor in 3D =sigh!

  • this is Jen

    Author: Susan Walsh
    Comment:
    I spent five seasons of Friday Night Lights swooning for Tim Riggins, played by
    Taylor Kitsch. He’s Canadian, and I read that he’s one of four brothers, all
    models. I think he’s pretty close to physical perfection.
    ………………………………………………………………………………..

    sorry, susan, I already got dibbs on him.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I spent five seasons of Friday Night Lights swooning for Tim Riggins, played by Taylor Kitsch. He’s Canadian, and I read that he’s one of four brothers, all models. I think he’s pretty close to physical perfection.

    Just a notch below your husband, I’m sure.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Just a notch below your husband, I’m sure.

      Taylor Kitsch is nice to look at, but I get the sense he’s not all that bright. Looking at him is a little like looking at Michelangelo’s David – it’s a pleasing aesthetic experience, not a sexual one. For a less perfect but sexier example, see Kyle Chandler as Coach Taylor.

  • this is Jen

    Author: Susan Walsh
    Comment:
    I spent five seasons of Friday Night Lights swooning for Tim Riggins, played by
    Taylor Kitsch. He’s Canadian, and I read that he’s one of four brothers, all
    models. I think he’s pretty close to physical perfection.
    ————————————————————————

    He was within 4miles of my house at an event ( not well publicized -) and I didn’t know it til later—::::pounding table with fist::::damn damn dman

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      He was within 4miles of my house at an event ( not well publicized -) and I didn’t know it til later—::::pounding table with fist::::damn damn dman

      A fellow blogger named Bblove got to meet him on set, and he sang happy birthday to her. She had the video up for a while. She said the most memorable thing about the experience was how dirty his hair was. He said they made him go two weeks without washing it so that Riggins would look appropriately grimy.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    He was within 4miles of my house at an event ( not well publicized -) and I didn’t know it til later—::::pounding table with fist::::damn damn dman

    Wow…

  • this is Jen

    Anacaona March 16, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    @J
    Is only her and her husband, but yeah I don’t get the whole “I’m worth what I’m wearing/own” I dislike materialistic people as a whole. I just want enough money to feed myself, my kinds the husband, leave under a decent enough roof and have ice cream once in a while if I ever get more than that then I might spent it on luxuries like travel and charity but God knows that if someone starts to judge me for my accessories that person is going in the short list of people I don’t mind not talking too really fast, YMMV.
    —————————————————————

    we could definitely be friends…… I don’t even carry a purse- I so don’t get the “look at my expensive wardrobe of purses” thing.

  • this is Jen

    -guy March 16, 2012 at 6:08 pm

    Bottom line- a man should flirt whenever he can, no matter his situation. Keeps him sharp and his skills ready.

    On a cerebral, internet article level, women will never admit it.

    But on a visceral level, in the presence of the overconfident flirtatious man, they love it. Whether they know it or not.
    . —————————————————————-

    I’ll admit it, But I will also admit it took me along time to “get” it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    None of the Taylor Kitsch stuff was very encouraging.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      None of the Taylor Kitsch stuff was very encouraging.

      I knew you were bumming about that. Honestly, it’s just girl talk. He could show up at my door right now and I’d not even dream of touching him. My husband has heard my daughter and I talk about TK – he thinks we’re silly. He thinks Connie Britton is pretty amazing from the same show.

      JM, you’re too easily threatened by this stuff. Admiring someone extraordinary looking does not mean wanting them sexually. Beautiful people decorate the landscape, that’s all.

  • Mike C

    None of the Taylor Kitsch stuff was very encouraging.

    Some day I think you’ll have to give up on the idealism.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike,

    I like my idealism. Without it, I think I’d just be another Roissy or something.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    JM, you’re too easily threatened by this stuff. Admiring someone extraordinary looking does not mean wanting them sexually. Beautiful people decorate the landscape, that’s all.

    Guess I never heard anybody swoon over Michelangelo’s David. Whatever the case, I’m not sure I feel “threatened” by it. Or maybe I do. I mean, certainly not by what you or Jen think of TK or your own men. In terms of my own relationship, if I heard my gf describe someone else as coming as near the perfect male body as she’d ever seen… idk.

    Maybe “threatened” is fair, because if I heard her say that, then I’d almost certainly close my heart off to her–at least a little bit.

  • M3

    Jesus

    if I heard my gf describe someone else as coming as near the perfect male body as she’d ever seen… idk.

    i’ve heard this sentiment before, just had a conversation recently with my friendzone friend about this.

    Primarily, i don’t care about whether or not i am a physical specimen to win Mr. Universe. I’ve achieved the body i want (take shirt off on beach and feel happy, not intimidated or feeling inadequate) women can still swoon with Fabio or Mr. Spice guy, i’m content with myself and won’t be doing what good looking women do, complain they’re too fat, inadequate, tits too small, etc.. no fishing expeditions for me.

    We got into a conversation about where you draw the line before you accept something or become unhappy for settling. It was an alien conversation. My answers were so vague, hair color, doesn’t matter, height doesn’t matter. I have a preference for long legs and small busts, but will not feel like i’m settling if she’s got big C instead of small B, or if she’s 5’0″ instead of 5’9″ legs go on forever. If i have a great time with her and i feel good being around her it will NEVER feel like a settle, just pure harmony.

    This is not the sense i got from her. Women it seems require much more tangibility in men, and so many strikes on biologically unchangeable elements. She really seemed to think there was some formula that
    IF preference BREAST=(+/-5_C)
    and HIP_WAIST>0.7
    and HAIR=Brunette
    THEN Engage
    ELSE discard

    When i was married… all other women actually vanished. I am sure i ‘checked’ other women out throughout daily life, but i did not make grunts, noises, noticeable head motions, call attention, etc.. things that appear to be acceptable from the female centric social norm now.

    ‘Oh he’s dreamy! Oh he’s so hawt! He can bite me anyday!’
    - My wife while watching Vampire Diaries.

    My wife would always shit test me too with asking me if i thought X actress was hot or good looking etc.. and i’d always say truthfully, ‘yeah she looks good’ and leave it there. Kate Beckinsale/Elizabeth Hurley/Olivia Wilde is what i would consider ‘my type’.. yet you won’t catch me going googoo gagga and drooling over myself watching them on screen.

    I’m not threatened by it. I just find it slightly off to the side of rude if not completely childish. It would be identical to a guy with a girlfriend who had nice small boobs seeing a girl with DD’s walk by and saying out loud ‘MMM MMM MMM what i’d give to slip my meat between those 2 well defined melons…. ohh sorry hun, i love your tits.’

  • Jesus Mahoney

    M3,

    That’s pretty much my take on it. I don’t feel threatened by the idea of my gf finding this or that man attractive. It’s more that for me, when I’m in love, that woman is my ideal. Other women can be hot, too, but my gf’s face, hair, body… all that’s ideal for me at the moment. So the idea that she would rave about this one or that one or find another man as close to perfection as she’d seen… I’d take it as a really bad sign.

    Obviously most people don’t think like us. Which is fine with me–as long as my gf doesn’t start talking shit about other guys like that.

  • this is Jen

    Author: Susan Walsh
    Comment:

    Just a notch below your husband, I’m sure.

    Taylor Kitsch is nice to look at, but I get the sense he’s not all that bright.
    Looking at him is a little like looking at Michelangelo’s David – it’s a
    pleasing aesthetic experience, not a sexual one. For a less perfect but sexier
    example, see Kyle Chandler as Coach Taylor.
    ——————————————————————

    I’m sorry- whaaaa??? my brain pretty much stops working when I ‘m looking at him

  • this is Jen

    Author: Susan Walsh
    Comment:

    Just a notch below your husband, I’m sure.

    Taylor Kitsch is nice to look at, but I get the sense he’s not all that bright.
    Looking at him is a little like looking at Michelangelo’s David – it’s a
    pleasing aesthetic experience, not a sexual one. For a less perfect but sexier
    example, see Kyle Chandler as Coach Taylor.
    ————————————————————————–

    p.s. my hubby HAS to be the guy they modeled the character of Eric after-minus the southern accent

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’m sorry- whaaaa??? my brain pretty much stops working when I ‘m looking at him

    Wow, fortunate husband….

  • this is Jen

    Author: Susan Walsh
    Comment:

    He was within 4miles of my house at an event ( not well publicized
    -) and I didn’t know it til later—::::pounding table with fist::::damn damn
    dman

    A fellow blogger named Bblove got to meet him on set, and he sang happy birthday
    to her. She had the video up for a while. She said the most memorable thing
    about the experience was how dirty his hair was. He said they made him go two
    weeks without washing it so that Riggins would look appropriately grimy.
    ————————————————————–

    That is the one thing I didnt like–that greasy hair thing, blech

    I hate all shows and movies where men are all dirty like that

  • this is Jen

    Author: Jesus Mahoney
    Comment:

    I’m sorry- whaaaa??? my brain pretty much stops working when I ‘m
    looking at him

    Wow, fortunate husband….
    —————————————————————————

    thats harsh JM, but FTR my husband is pretty fortunate to have a wife like me. He will tell you the same thing. I dont want anyother man, but looking at a hansome man doesnt threaten. Mr Jen is quite the catch himself!

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jen,

    That’s cool. I don’t mean to crap on your relationship. I just wouldn’t want one like that.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    M3 and JM – add me to your club. I’m exactly the same way, and HAVE felt exactly as you describe hearing my SO talk about some guy being hot with one of her friends. I don’t know that it is threatening per se. I mean, she isn’t going to ever meet him, and even if she does he probably wouldn’t marry her… But, its a huge let down to hear it all the same.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ted D

    Why is it a let down?

  • this is Jen

    Jesus Mahoney March 20, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    Jen,

    That’s cool. I don’t mean to crap on your relationship. I just wouldn’t want one like that.
    —————————————————————–

    NP, JM. I am waaaay more than satisfied in my marriage-I wish everyone could feel like this everyday. I had a previous marriage that could never compare. I had no idea what I was missing.
    I spelled handsome wrong- I can spell, I just cannot type

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted,

    I’ve heard my gf talk about guys that her friends are started dating. He’s a hottie, blah blah… That stuff doesn’t bother me so much. Like I said, I don’t mind her finding other people attractive. It’s the idea of either having a “thing” for some other guy or else thinking this other guy was not just great looking but better looking than me.

    Not that I would resent it. I mean, I wouldn’t like it, but she can’t help who she finds more or less attractive. I’d probably just walk away from the relationship.

    Fortunately, that kind of thing has never come up.

  • anonymous

    Herb: “In my experience this describes most people, not just most women.
    Very few people are encouraged to do the self discovery to know themselves, their wants, their needs, or their reactions.”

    This is where family/societal pressure/religion/laws used to step in to help young people make better decisions.
    —————
    H “That is half of the SMP issue period: we do things because they feel good now not because they fit into a longer term plan.””

    Agreed.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    JM – “It’s the idea of either having a “thing” for some other guy or else thinking this other guy was not just great looking but better looking than me.”

    It was a “thing” kinda comment. She also has a “thing” for Vin Diesel’s voice, which as a singer bugs me a bit too. I bet he can’t hold a note for 10 seconds… :P

    Sassy – Honestly? I don’t like hearing about anyone she finds attractive. Like JM, I tend not to notice other women in general when I’m with someone and happy. In fact, I find it odd that my SO will occasionally point out some woman on TV and say “she’s hot shit. Don’t you think so?” Once upon a time I would have probably shrugged my shoulders and acted like I didn’t care (because I don’t). Now? I say “sure, she looks pretty good” mostly because I worry if I don’t, that she’ll see that as some sign of betatude and add a strike against me.

    I guess I just am wired all differently than most people. The woman I’m with is the perfect woman for me. Period. There may be hotter and smarter women out there, but other than an initial notice, I barely see them. And, as far as “star infatuation” goes? I have none. Famous people do not impress me, at all. I’ve never been crazy over any female actor or musician, at least not from a hotness perspective. I have a great deal of respect and admiration for some, but I can’t think of a single example of one that I’m just physically crazy for. Even the red head from Mad Men (forget her name… that’s how important fame is to me lol) who I think has a smoking body, only comes to my mind when I see her in something. Fame and beauty just don’t impress me much. *shrug*

  • this is Jen

    JM says
    I’m just physically crazy for.
    Even the red head from Mad Men (forget her name… that’s how important fame is
    to me lol) who I think has a smoking body, only comes to my mind when I see her
    in something. Fame and beauty just don’t impress me much. *shrug*
    —————————————————

    ha ha ha, youre not so different, after all :)

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    This conversation again? It seems to come up all the time.

    Objectively I know there are tons of girls who are better looking than me. I’m not ugly by any means, but I’m bloated and pregnant, and not feeling the most attractive these days. My husband doesn’t make comments about other girls, but I know he looks, and he’s admitted to looking. He doesn’t talk about it though, which I am find with, and I don’t talk about it either. It’s an old conversation we had years ago, and neither of us brings it up anymore.

    At any rate, I don’t gush over other guys, because I’m just not fond of them. I think my main issue with the men other women consider “good looking” is that they seem a bit feminine to me. They also tend to have little to no substance. If I’m going for superficial, I would have to say that females are much more physically attractive than males. I can stare at a good-looking female face/body, and as an amateur artist I collect pictures of beautiful women. This is something I’ve liked to do ever since I was about 6.

    Most guys shouldn’t be threatened by their women being all giggly over some other guy’s looks. Now if she starts worshipping him and spending too much time on it, like volunteering for his campaign to be president and neglecting other aspects of her life to be in his orbit, yeah that is problematic. Otherwise, it’s just eye candy.

    I just chalk it up to different people being different. My husband says he can’t help but look, and that’s his perogative. Would I like it if he never looked at other girls? Sure. But it’s such a minor thing in the grand scheme that I wouldn’t demand him to only have eyes for me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    Nobody’s saying that. If my gf looks at some hot guy walking down the street, I’m fine with that. It’s not like I expect her to be blind.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JM

      Nobody’s saying that. If my gf looks at some hot guy walking down the street, I’m fine with that. It’s not like I expect her to be blind.

      I felt more threatened about this issue in the early days of my relationship. If my husband thought an actress was amazing looking or even if he was just a fan I’d feel nagged by that. Now, we’re an old married couple that never cheated, and there’s total security. My husband and I joked that we had a crush on the Taylors as a couple in FNL. That hardly makes us poly, lol.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jen,

    ha ha ha, youre not so different, after all :)

    lol, I suppose. Except Ted stayed with his girl after overhearing her conversation.

  • Cooper

    I’ve been reading ex-nice-guy’s comment (most of which went unackownledged)
    His comments have me thinking.
    Yesterday, Susan gave me a very valid piece of Biological reality: Men display, women select.
    So does that imply once a man has been selected, he should cease to display?

    As far as I know, women don’t stop wanting to “look their best” once in a relationship, so should a man always be “displaying his best” as well?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      So does that imply once a man has been selected, he should cease to display?

      As far as I know, women don’t stop wanting to “look their best” once in a relationship, so should a man always be “displaying his best” as well?

      He needs to maintain, but he doesn’t need to up his game. If she demands that, she’s unreasonable and not suited for long-term monogamy.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    TIJ – “ha ha ha, youre not so different, after all ”

    I fully admit I can see and acknowledge an attractive women. I just don’t commit them to memory, and then continually carry that thought around like an obsession. I forget them about 15 seconds after they are out of my sight. It isn’t noticing “hotness” that is the issue, it is the focus on specific people’s hotness that bothers me most. Like people that have “what if” lists. I know couples that do, and although I realize it is ludicrous to worry that my SO might someday run into some celebrity AND manage to sex them up, the fact that anyone would even suggest that they NEED to essentially ASK their mate for a free pass if they get the chance to screw some star is simply repulsive.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Jesus Mahoney, funny thing is I am so near-sighted I might as well be blind, so I don’t check out guys walking down the street. My husband on the other hand has basically perfect vision. He’s like, I don’t know how you can stand to be blind like that all the time.

    Keep in mind you don’t know how your girlfriend talks with her friends. She might gush a bit about how so-and-so is hot just like the women do anonymously online and on HUS. I have married female friends who talk about celebrity guys around me and groups of all girls, too, and they probably don’t talk that way to their men.

    You’re seeing the equivalent of “locker room talk” for girls here, and you don’t like it. :P

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    Oh, I know. I have to give my gf the benefit of the doubt. And I do. I’m not eavesdropping or anything. I’m just saying how I would react to hearing her talk that way.

  • this is Jen

    Ted D sI fully admit I can see and acknowledge an attractive women. I just don’t
    commit them to memory, and then continually carry that thought around like an
    obsession. I forget them about 15 seconds after they are out of my sight. It
    isn’t noticing “hotness” that is the issue, it is the focus on specific people’s
    hotness that bothers me most. Like people that have “what if” lists. I know
    couples that do, and although I realize it is ludicrous to worry that my SO
    might someday run into some celebrity AND manage to sex them up, the fact that
    anyone would even suggest that they NEED to essentially ASK their mate for a
    free pass if they get the chance to screw some star is simply repulsive.
    —————————————————————-

    I agree. we have no lists of that sort-thats ridiculous

  • Sassy6519

    Yesterday, Susan gave me a very valid piece of Biological reality: Men display, women select.
    So does that imply once a man has been selected, he should cease to display?

    As far as I know, women don’t stop wanting to “look their best” once in a relationship, so should a man always be “displaying his best” as well?

    That has always been my take on things. Whenever I’m in a relationship, I do whatever I can to continue being the woman my guy initially fell for. I expect the same thing from my man. I see no point in becoming lazy in a relationship. I think it’s both people’s duty to continue displaying their value to their mates. I would be upset if a guy started slacking, just as I’d expect him to be upset with me if I did the same thing. Once a fire has been started, it needs to be fed and tended to in order to continue burning. One can’t just start a fire and expect it to continue on its own initial resources.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Cooper – “As far as I know, women don’t stop wanting to “look their best” once in a relationship, so should a man always be “displaying his best” as well?”

    I would say common red pill knowledge on this is: yes a man should always continue to “display his best” throughout the relationship. There is much debate on exactly what that means though, and at this point in my red pill journey, I’m still on the fence between feeling like it is asking too much, and feeling like it can probably be easily done.

    It sucks, because for the most part, males of other species only have to display to catch a mate, and then they can move on to other things. I don’t imagine a peacock goes around all the time with those feathers out.

    JM – meh. Other than you (and M3 it seems), I don’t know a single person that wouldn’t think I was 100% crazy for leaving a good relationship because my SO thinks some musician/actor is hot. I would say that at least half the couples I know joke about their “lists”. So, I just chalk this up to me being an odd bird and blow it off. Bigger fish to fry and all.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      , I don’t know a single person that wouldn’t think I was 100% crazy for leaving a good relationship because my SO thinks some musician/actor is hot. I would say that at least half the couples I know joke about their “lists”.

      Whoa there. Saying Taylor Kitsch is blessed in his physical looks does not mean he’s on a list of any kind. I’d say the same about Christina Hendricks, and have. There’s a lot of daylight between appreciating beauty in another human being and wanting to f*ck them.

  • Herb

    @Sassy:

    @ Ted D

    Why is it a let down?

    For the same reason it is when a woman hears her man talking about it.

    How so many women think “this hurts me but men should be impervious” amazes me. I know that my ex-wife was upset if I knew realized other women existed, much less admired them but felt free to express admiration of other men (and even make remarks about how I could look more like that).

    @Hope:

    Most guys shouldn’t be threatened by their women being all giggly over some other guy’s looks. Now if she starts worshipping him and spending too much time on it, like volunteering for his campaign to be president and neglecting other aspects of her life to be in his orbit, yeah that is problematic. Otherwise, it’s just eye candy.

    This is another case of what Susan has called everyone weaponizing. Most men have gotten regular grief from women (see above about my wife) if they noticed other women. They expect women to have the same self-control only to learn that as far as women are concerned it shouldn’t hurt a man’s feeling.

    More and more I’m convinced Hillary Clinton’s statement about women being primary victims of war is the perfect encapsulation of why more and more men like women sexually but can’t stand them. This question of “why should me be threatened by the woman in their life gushing over someone else” is just more proof.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Hope – “You’re seeing the equivalent of “locker room talk” for girls here, and you don’t like it. ”

    that makes sense. I used to detest locker room talk and always made a hasty exit when it occurred around me.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I think many girls bond over the commonality of finding some celebrity guy hot. I remember a conversation with a girl where she was going on about how hot some guy is, and I was like “whatever, I don’t think he’s all that,” and she knocked me on the shoulder playfully and said, “well we can’t be friends then!” Yeah it was mostly said as a joke, but still, for a lot of girls this is a way to find common ground. You can see why I’m not and have never been popular among females.

  • M3

    As far as I know, women don’t stop wanting to “look their best” once in a relationship, so should a man always be “displaying his best” as well?

    i learned my lesson, but now it’s not a case of me looking my best for anyone. i just wanna look my best for myself. if i get into a relationship again, i’ll always be wanting to look my best because i’ll always want to be at the top of my game. it’ll keep me at the point of ‘having options’ so the dread instilled never need be verbalized nor overt ;)

  • Cooper

    @Sassy, TedD

    I wasn’t suggesting once in a relationship either person should allow themselve to become something the other didn’t intially fall for.

    I mean in terms of attracting the opposite sex.

    If a women is in a relationship, whom is “aka dressing her best”, i feel as though she would inevitably be attracting other men.

    For men, it seems gaining attraction (aka “displaying his best”) has a lot more to do with behavoir, and demeanor, compared to a women “dressing her best”
    So should a man is in a relationship, continue to display behavoir that would appear to be flirting? (or seeking to gain other womens interest)

  • M3

    Herb

    This is another case of what Susan has called everyone weaponizing. Most men have gotten regular grief from women (see above about my wife) if they noticed other women. They expect women to have the same self-control only to learn that as far as women are concerned it shouldn’t hurt a man’s feeling.

    +1
    THIS.

    If a woman wants to be a child and be that immature little giggling swooning teenybopper, but throw a shit fit because my eyeballs happen to see a Victoria Secret model in a sea of mastodons walking the street, the hypocrisy can only cut so much.

    Double standards coming out of the wood works.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Herb

    For the same reason it is when a woman hears her man talking about it.

    How so many women think “this hurts me but men should be impervious” amazes me. I know that my ex-wife was upset if I knew realized other women existed, much less admired them but felt free to express admiration of other men (and even make remarks about how I could look more like that).

    My experiences with this issue have been the opposite. Some of the men I’ve dated have commented on how attractive other women are. It honestly has never fazed me. I’m not a jealous person. I typically agree with them on their judgements of the women, and I don’t feel slighted by it. Whenever I have mentioned how attractive another guy is in front of them, however, they blew up at me like you wouldn’t believe. You would have thought that I had cuckolded them right there on the spot.

    It just goes to show that people vary on how jealous and territorial they are over their mates.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Herb, there is a bit of mainstream brainwashing going on with tat. Men are portrayed in pop culture to be insensitive and not very emotional, whereas women are portrayed as overly sensitive and emotional. So many women feel like they can say what they want, and their men shouldn’t say similar things. Of course if men do get sensitive about it, they’re seen as wussy or sissy, and the cycle perpetuates itself. Even Game advocates being non-reactive and immovable as “alpha.”

    I think this is a sexual double-standard that will continue though, because like it or not, men are expected to be a certain way, and women are expected to be a certain way, and the ways are different. The notch count double standard is just the tip of the iceberg.

  • M3

    Except that ‘locker room’ talk seems to be breaking out of locker rooms and into living rooms, dining rooms, bedrooms, open street, tee veee, media, sex and the city, etc….

    The more i think about it, the more it starts to piss me off a tad. The free pass of women getting to voice their adulation of men they find desirable AND telling the men they’re attached to TO not take offense and to treat it as just ‘girls will be girls’ is getting trite, tired and insulting.

    Tit for tat. If anyone I’m with dare pull that shit off on me, I will give it back to her 10 fold in kind. She’ll either learn the lesson or she’ll walk.

    Either way, win win.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    M3,

    Maybe you can break out some “dread” if she tries it.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    M3, that was basically what some aspects of feminism were reacting against, the “boys will be boys,” the perceived unfairness, the societal level condoning of affairs and emotional insensitivity.

    Problem is, these uprisings are inherently unstable, as the new status quo begins to oppress the old status quo. The French Revolution touched off a counter revolution, and then a counter-counter revolution.

    It also happens when people see the “other” as “different” and as the “enemy.”

    I get where the men are coming from, because if I were in their shoes, I’d be pissed off, too. The solution is not more divisive mentality and hatred, but more understanding, compassion and love.

    But… I’m not holding my breath.

  • Lokland

    I’m with JM, Ted and M3.
    I have walked in the past for gushing about so and so. Its a sign of 100% disrespect she thinks of you as worth less than trash. And again respect > love in terms of importance for me. Actually without 100% respect there is no relationship for me.

    I know my fiance thinks Jude Law is hot. She doesn’t gush on and on about it. I don’t give a fuck.

    If I overheard her gushing I’d end our 4 year relationship in seconds without a second thought. (And as she doesn’t yet know I am now more fluent-ish in Chinese, I intend to speak to her parents in their own language when we get married.)

    I do find it funny that man can’t talk about how hot so and so is. Because we all know dread is evil but women doing exactly the same thing is no big deal.

    Its stuff like this that makes mysogyny reasonable.

    As for couples with lists, good for them…. I know I’m on someones list so lucky me. Poor him. Totally okay though right?

    If so I guess I have plans for Friday.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      I have walked in the past for gushing about so and so. Its a sign of 100% disrespect she thinks of you as worth less than trash. And again respect > love in terms of importance for me. Actually without 100% respect there is no relationship for me.

      Sorry, but that’s the limit. You do not get to judge any woman for gushing about some other guy when you fuck other women via Ashley Madison. That’s a redwood you’ve got in your own eye buddy.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    There’s a lot of daylight between appreciating beauty in another human being and wanting to f*ck them.

    But surely swooning is a bit more than “appreciating beauty”.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I felt more threatened about this issue in the early days of my relationship. If my husband thought an actress was amazing looking or even if he was just a fan I’d feel nagged by that. Now, we’re an old married couple that never cheated, and there’s total security. My husband and I joked that we had a crush on the Taylors as a couple in FNL. That hardly makes us poly, lol.

    To each his own, I guess.

  • Lokland

    “There’s a lot of daylight between appreciating beauty in another human being and wanting to f*ck them.”

    Run hamster run as far as you can.

  • this is Jen

    Author: Jesus Mahoney
    Comment:

    There’s a lot of daylight between appreciating beauty in another
    human being and wanting to f*ck them.

    But surely swooning is a bit more than “appreciating beauty”.
    ———————————————————————————-

    maybe this is where we need to clarify, JM. swooning- at least the way I meant it was to show that I thought Taylor K is a good looking man. NOthing more….even if I do find out the next time he is in town, I would do no more than go to see what he looks like in person ( and hope his hair was clean). I do not go on an on about him or talk to my husband about wanting him ( Taylor)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    even if I do find out the next time he is in town, I would do no more than go to see what he looks like in person ( and hope his hair was clean).

    That’s cool. It’s not my place to have a problem with it if you want to go see him in person.

  • OffTheCuff

    Hope: “You’re seeing the equivalent of “locker room talk” for girls here, and you don’t like it.”

    Blue-pill guys don’t like it, because we’ve been guilted out of doing it ourselves by women calling us “shallow” and “juvenile” and other assorted insult. It’s astonishing to realize women do it worse than we ever did.

    My attitude is: cool, now I can say without shame Elisha Cuthbert is smokin’ hot. 11 out of 10! Your shaming tactic is now useless.

    My wife can crush on Ewan McGregor all she wants, it’s harmless fun since it’s not a person in her life. She doesn’t gush and on, just a word or two very occasionally. And we can both crush on Christina Hendricks, so that makes up for it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My wife can crush on Ewan McGregor all she wants, it’s harmless fun since it’s not a person in her life. She doesn’t gush and on, just a word or two very occasionally. And we can both crush on Christina Hendricks, so that makes up for it.

      That’s how it is with us too. It’s both harmless and fun.

      Hmmmm, here’s a thought. If my husband and I see an arousing sex scene together, in a movie or True Blood, for example, it usually means we’ll head for the BR afterwards. Should I be threatened that watching a woman having sex arouses him? Should he feel that way about me? I don’t think so.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Honestly, I’d want my gf to say it if she had a crush on a celeb. Better off knowing what you’re working with.

  • Ted D

    Lol. WE have no such list. I told her the first time it came up in mixed company (which was the first I’d ever heard of it) that if she felt the need for one, she won’t need it with me, because I won’t be there.

    I do see it as a respect issue, but I also don’t think it ever occurred to her. I’m finding that she is used to being with a very liberal/sex pozzy crowd. She is so used to hearing crass stuff that she doesn’t realize it can be hurtful. Her ex is about as crass as it gets, and she just isn’t used to someone with a vocal filter and minimum expectations for civil conversation.

    As I understand it, when she was married normal party conversations often focused on things like this. The conversation hovered somewhere between locker room bragging and “truth or dare.” she learned from these conversations that her ex lost his virginity at 13 to a woman his dad brought home to “get it over with” in fact. So, I try to cut her some slack. I imagine if she had been married to a sailor for 10 years she would probably swear a lot as well. :-p

    As far as the comment goes, she was watching some music channel and a video came on. I can’t remember who it was, but her friend made some comment and my SO replied something along the lines of “I would so rape him!” later I called her on it, and she said that obviously she wouldn’t rape anyone, and that she was just talking smack with her GF. I explained to her that it was hurtful, and to me it reflected badly on me and our relationship. She got a bit miffed, but apologized later. It doesn’t help that this friend of hers openly says that she has a huge crush on the lead singer of 30 Seconds to Mars, in front of her husband and anyone that will listen every time one of their songs come on. Every time it happens, I feel bad for him…

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I’m glad my husband and I don’t talk about celebrities. We watch movies but don’t really talk about the looks of the actors/actresses. And TV shows are like alien territory to me. We just don’t mention the looks of the other sex. We do sometimes mention the looks of other people of our own sex though. He’ll talk about how a coworker of his is built very wiry/thin but strong, or whatever.

    Anyway, question for the guys here. If the girlfriend/wife is saying stuff that doesn’t make you happy, how about have a civil conversation about it instead of dumping her immediately for daring to talk that way? Or going on a revenge rampage with your own over-the-top flirting and talking about how hot other women are? Why is this a zero-tolerance, deal-breaking issue?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I can’t remember who it was, but her friend made some comment and my SO replied something along the lines of “I would so rape him!”

    I would’ve walked out there and then and not come home till at least the next morning.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    Why is this a zero-tolerance, deal-breaking issue?

    Because it’s not about the comment. It’s about the sentiment behind the comment. So then what, you have a civil conversation and she’s more careful about what she says? That hardly solves the problem.

  • Sassy6519

    It doesn’t help that this friend of hers openly says that she has a huge crush on the lead singer of 30 Seconds to Mars, in front of her husband and anyone that will listen every time one of their songs come on. Every time it happens, I feel bad for him…

    Jared Leto is a beautiful man. Sigh.

  • Sassy6519

    I would’ve walked out there and then and not come home till at least the next morning.

    Wow.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    If my husband and I see an arousing sex scene together, in a movie or True Blood, for example, it usually means we’ll head for the BR afterwards. Should I be threatened that watching a woman having sex arouses him? Should he feel that way about me? I don’t think so.

    There’s a difference. Of course you’re both going to find a sex scene arousing. That’s not the same as crushing on a particular person, though. Not that I’m criticizing the two of you.

  • Ramble

    Anyway, question for the guys here. If the girlfriend/wife is saying stuff that doesn’t make you happy, how about have a civil conversation about it instead of dumping her immediately for daring to talk that way?

    Personally, I am not a fan of the hardcore, “my way or the highway” kind of thinking, but, there are deal breakers. For instance, if some girl completely emasculated me in public, her ass would be kicked to the curb.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    “You do not get to judge any woman for gushing about some other guy when you fuck other women via Ashley Madison. That’s a redwood you’ve got in your own eye buddy.”

    You can judge me, hate me, tell me what I can/cannot post, tell me how evil/wrong/horrible/inhumane/hypocritical I am but don’t tell me whether or not I can judge someone who I am personally involved with.

    On another note, is a redwood some kind of tree?

    @ Hope

    “If the girlfriend/wife is saying stuff that doesn’t make you happy, how about have a civil conversation about it instead of dumping her immediately for daring to talk that way? Or going on a revenge rampage with your own over-the-top flirting and talking about how hot other women are? Why is this a zero-tolerance, deal-breaking issue?”

    I should have clarified. Its an instant dealbreaker if she doesn’t drop it immediately and forever more.
    Its like if she pulls out a huge shit test in public, I tell them to drop it. If they don’t, I walk.

    As for Teds situation, I would have left and let her stew for a while because saying “I want his penis inside of me” translates to “I want his children not yours” not matter how you spin it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      You can judge me, hate me, tell me what I can/cannot post, tell me how evil/wrong/horrible/inhumane/hypocritical I am but don’t tell me whether or not I can judge someone who I am personally involved with.

      Fine, then, let this be understood. I will not allow any hypocritical comments from you. The hypocrisy you sell in your own relationship is your business, but I have no desire to see you vent it here. That goes for fucking around and it also goes for grabbing the moral high ground on obesity, a topic on which I consider your fairly ruthless based on your previous comments.

      A redwood is a giant sequoia. I thought you had those in Canada.

  • M3

    Hope

    Anyway, question for the guys here. If the girlfriend/wife is saying stuff that doesn’t make you happy, how about have a civil conversation about it instead of dumping her immediately for daring to talk that way? Or going on a revenge rampage with your own over-the-top flirting and talking about how hot other women are? Why is this a zero-tolerance, deal-breaking issue?

    I did try with my ex wife. I was told not to be so ‘sensitive’ and not to get so worked up over it.

    Funny how a year and a lack of attraction changes things.

    When i was in the alpha frame, all i had to do was turn my head slightly while noticing a pair of heels or a nice style of dress that flattered a woman in order to make her securely clutch my arm and say ‘You’re mine, I don’t play well with others. I don’t share!’ And this was not a case of me overtly whistling, or muttering ‘holy mother of god look at those legs’ under my breath. This was a glance, that created such a visceral reaction in her.

    One year removed, gone fully beta, and completely unattractive to the woman i loved, i’m being told to quit being so sensitive over her fawning over Damon on Vampire Diaries.

    How the worm turned. Had i been alpha frame, i’d have reminded her about how hot the strippers were at the gentleman’s club i used to frequent and how tight and toned their thighs were when they caressed the dance pole.

    Boom, headshot.

  • Sassy6519

    One year removed, gone fully beta, and completely unattractive to the woman i loved, i’m being told to quit being so sensitive over her fawning over Damon on Vampire Diaries.

    It’s funny how whenever this topic comes up here, Ian Somerhalder always ends up in the conversation as well.

    Clearly, his character of Damon on the Vampire Diaries set many women’s loins up in flames, mine included.

  • Lokland

    “Fine, then, let this be understood. I will not allow any hypocritical comments from you. The hypocrisy you sell in your own relationship is your business, but I have no desire to see you vent it here. That goes for fucking around and it also goes for grabbing the moral high ground on obesity, a topic on which I consider your fairly ruthless based on your previous comments.

    A redwood is a giant sequoia. I thought you had those in Canada.”

    Good now that we’re both calmer,

    Deal.
    As for moral high ground, fat is amoral its tryglycerides stuffed in cells. The health effects are physical individually and financial socially. Morally I take no stand on whether obesity is right or wrong. My issue is pragmatic, X increase in healthcare cost is spread across people who do not require it. That is not right.

    My moral issue with the other thread is irrelevant of weight and centred on the outside vs. insider issue.

    Giant seqoia I know, never heard of a red wood. I’ll get to learning both common and scientific names of all 180 indigenous Cdn tree species so I can keep up with our next forestry talk.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    How many guys can honestly say they never look at porn? Never ever ever, after getting with their girls?

    I’m going to guess zero.

    So how is it very different to get off to the look of a porn actress vs. a celebrity actor?

    Look, men have their urges and scratch them (polygamy via varieties of porn), and women have theirs and scratch them (hypergamy via celebrities). It seems strange for men to claim that it’s less acceptable to talk about celebrities than to jack off to porn. Unless both are unacceptable?

    And in full disclosure, celebrity guys don’t do a thing for me, and I prefer porn that don’t have any male headshots and feature the female. Maybe I really was a guy in a previous life…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I prefer porn that don’t have any male headshots and feature the female. Maybe I really was a guy in a previous life…

      In doing some, ahem, research on gay male porn a while back for a post, I found it extremely arousing. Yikes.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hope

    How many guys can honestly say they never look at porn? Never ever ever, after getting with their girls?

    I’m going to guess zero.

    So how is it very different to get off to the look of a porn actress vs. a celebrity actor?

    Look, men have their urges and scratch them (polygamy via varieties of porn), and women have theirs and scratch them (hypergamy via celebrities). It seems strange for men to claim that it’s less acceptable to talk about celebrities than to jack off to porn. Unless both are unacceptable?

    Bingo. You hit the nail right on the head with this.

  • anonymous

    Hope:
    “that was basically what some aspects of feminism were reacting against, the “boys will be boys,” the perceived unfairness, the societal level condoning of affairs and emotional insensitivity.
    Problem is, these uprisings are inherently unstable, as the new status quo begins to oppress the old status quo. The French Revolution touched off a counter revolution, and then a counter-counter revolution.
    It also happens when people see the “other” as “different” and as the “enemy.”
    I get where the men are coming from, because if I were in their shoes, I’d be pissed off, too. The solution is not more divisive mentality and hatred, but more understanding, compassion and love.”

    > + 1
    —–
    H:
    “But… I’m not holding my breath.”

    The end result will be that everyone will resort to childish misbehavior- “children will be children” until those acting like adults get totally fed up and then……. and then…… well, that’s what I’M waiting to see in my lifetime.
    What happens next to those who don’t participate? Oh, the suspense.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    How many guys can honestly say they never look at porn? Never ever ever, after getting with their girls?

    I’m not even a fan when I’m single. In a relationship? No.

  • Lokland

    @ Hope, Sassy

    Would you say its acceptable for said men to wtach porn and then come inform you that: your BJ is less than adequate, your tits are just not quite round enough, your hips are not the perfect ratio and your hair could be longer and shinier?

    No?

    Yeah, nobody wants to hear how not good they are irrespective of sex.

    As I said fiance thinks Jude Law is hot. Don’t care.
    Fiance gushes continuously about how hot he is. Care very much.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Lokland, some men ask their significant others to try out scenes from porn, and supposedly the huge explosion of anal sex (no pun intended) is because of porn. There are men who get their women to dress up, wear heels, do threesomes or agree to getting other girls on the side (hey that sounds familiar). There are also men who tell their women that their boobs aren’t big enough and to get breast implants. These things happen. Some women put up with it, and some women walk.

    Personally, yeah I’d walk. I’m glad my husband isn’t into the artificial look or the swinging deal. Our tastes are quite vanilla.

  • M3

    Pro tip for either gender:

    Making a comment like “That guy/girl is so HAWT!” with your SO around and your SO not looking anything like what you are comparing = sheer mind boggling attraction killing stupidity.

    I am not all things to all women. I understand I am not Ian Sommerwhatshisface. I accept that reality and don’t begrudge him for it. But if it is vocalized to me that my SO would really enjoy a romp with someone that looks like him, and i do not have his facial features and piercing eyes, it makes me wonder how far down the rung my exwife has placed me on the desirability ladder. I am now in a direct comparison. And at that point, I’m really do not feel like placing all too much an effort to move a mountain.

    There is a big difference between knowing in the background that my exwife thinks he’s a beautiful pretty boy that everyone knows about vs. knowing he’s the ‘type’ of guy gets her panties moist.

    Again, i’ll drive it home. Would be if you had a couple pounds on you, had blonde hair, thick legs and little breasts and your SO was with his buddies on the couch pointing at the TV during the Victoria Secret Fashion show going “OMG look how fucking smoking hot she is… what i wouldn’t give to be ‘bitten’ by her, if ya know what i mean’

    (sad face on SO)

    oh stop pouting hun.. you’re being a little too sensitive dont-cha think? it’s not like im gonna go out and fuck a Vic. Secret model am i?

  • Escoffier

    I can think of only three times in 15 years my wife has commented on the looks of another man. One was John Lone in Last Emperor (she liked him in the tux). One was Colin Firth as Mr. Darcy (that was a rather intense crush as I recall). The other was when she met the Governator.

    I don’t think I have ever commented on the hotness of women in front of her. Maybe I should do that three times to even the score.

  • Ramble

    There are men who get their women to dress up, wear heels…

    Evil Bastards!

  • M3

    “So how is it very different to get off to the look of a porn actress vs. a celebrity actor?”

    Do i have to bring up Roosh/Roissy/Rollo’s ultimate dictat of

    “Keep a mans balls drained”

    I looked at porn to alleviate MY biological urge when me ex-wife did not feel up to the task. Feminism taught her i had no right to demand sex from her, and my beta wasn’t attractive enough to turn all 129 settings on the dashboard to ‘turn her on’.

    Male porn is very open and direct. Female porn is subtle, concealed yet out in the open for those who know what female porn looks like. Go to any bookstore romance section… it’s the equivalent of the dark porn store with the flickering neon lights.

    This is apples and oranges shit.

  • Lokland

    @ Hope

    I agree. Whether or not the person can deal is their own issue.

    As for me, I do it. I don’t ever compare… never in a million years would I be that cruel to everyone who isn’t her.

    I don’t find the action of X wrong. Its the comparison of X to the SO I find offensive. Something I do not do.

    And gushing about his perfect abs, her nice tits etc. are merely inverse statements of an SOs inadequacies.

    Finding attractive, okay.
    Gushing = saying your SO is not good enough indirectly and for women only, you want that guys kids not your SOs.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    I don’t know of a single woman that compares their man to a celebrity with that much detail. I would never say, “I like you and all honey, but your eyes are not as blue as his. You don’t have hair that is as full as his. Your package doesn’t compare to his. I like you anyway though.” I don’t see how saying that someone is attractive is anything similar to that.

    I’ve experienced the porn thing first hand. I walked in on my ex once spanking it to porn. I guess I really am odd in the fact that I wasn’t bothered at all. I’m honest in saying that jealousy barely ever registers with me. I watched porn by myself during that relationship as well, and he knew it.

    Funny thing is, the ex knew I thought Ian Somerhalder was really attractive. He went so far as to point him out in everything, just to hear what I would say. There was a billboard alongside the highway with him on it, and my ex would always mumble under his breath about it. Once, while we were in a doctor’s office, I picked up a magazine with him on the cover to read. The ex snatched the magazine from my hands, showed it to another person, and began talking with them in the waiting room about whether or not they saw the appeal in him. I kid you not.

    I thought it was funny.

  • anonymous

    Susan Walsh: “Should I be threatened that watching a woman having sex arouses him? Should he feel that way about me? ”

    Is he just watching or does he describe in detail all of the things he’d like to sexually do with the actress or does he compare you to her?
    I think there’s an issue when both parties disagree on what reactions/behaviors are acceptable or when there’s a double standard.

    The comparisons, like what Herb’s ex-wife would do is unacceptable, I think.

  • purplesneakers

    JM @ 387 & 390, those were rude comments to Jen. Everyone’s relationships don’t have to be like yours, and if they’re not, it doesn’t mean that they’re bad relationships or that the men are unlucky. Stop making passive-aggressive comments to women who comment here about how unsatisfactory they are as partners–you’re clearly an extreme outlier if you don’t even watch much porn while single.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    M3, yeah those romance novels are also about hypergamy just like celebrity guys, who are usually protagonists in a romantic story.

    I have only ever said glowingly good things about my husband and “eww” or “whatever” about random celebrities. I don’t care about romantic novels either or Twilight or other related female genre stuff. It makes me weird, abnormal, strange, just like Jesus Mahoney who apparently doesn’t look at porn (it’s okay my husband hasn’t sought out porn in about a year I think).

    If you want a normal female, 99% of the time they’re going to be into the celebrity thing and tingle for whathisname and vampires.

  • anonymous

    Hope:
    “And in full disclosure, celebrity guys don’t do a thing for me, and I prefer porn that don’t have any male headshots and feature the female. Maybe I really was a guy in a previous life…”

    No, you must’ve been a female then too.
    In advertising, women are used to sell products to men.
    Women are used to sell products to women.
    Men look and think “I want her”
    Women look and think “I want to be her”

  • OffTheCuff

    I’m pro-porn in the same way I’m pro-beer.

    Hope, there’s nothing wrong with any of that stuff if she’s into it, and maybe she doesn’t even *know* she’s into it just yet. Some repressed women might think anything but a few minutes of mish is horrible abuse, but then find out doggie-style isn’t so bad. If porn gives them some ideas that they both like, what’s the harm? I’ve learned a few trick from watchings that the Mrs. goes bonkers for. Call the police on me.

    Some women like spanking and some like hair-pulling at the right time. It’s not always abuse or a mental problem. And, since everyone seems to rail against it for some reason as a surefire sign of abuse… some women really do like anal.

    I won’t pretend that there isn’t degrading stuff in porn, but degrading is contextual.

  • Lokland

    @ Sassy

    “I don’t know of a single woman that compares their man to a celebrity with that much detail.”

    Neither do I. In fact the only women I’ve met who do this are hypergamy squared type woman.
    (I think back to the 4 months I lived with hoes in uni, the night watching VD when the one emasculated her boyfriend to the point I started putting a pillow over my chest cause I felt inadequate.)

    To think more, the women I know who do this are mostly single.

    However when you say I like X it is implied (and probably true) that SO does not have X. Thats fine but men evolved to avoid cuckolding and …. refer to previous arguments from here on out.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    OffTheCuff, some porn features another man, or another man watching, so-called cuckold porn. Some guys are into that sort of thing. Getting the girl into it sounds a bit risky.

    But, no I don’t think it’s abuse, and I don’t judge when other people do it, because it’s their business. I just think it’s up to the individual what/how much they would tolerate or like.

    In that sense the guys here shouldn’t feel sorry for Jen’s husband because she made some comments about some celebrity.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Purple,

    JM @ 387 & 390, those were rude comments to Jen. Everyone’s relationships don’t have to be like yours, and if they’re not, it doesn’t mean that they’re bad relationships or that the men are unlucky. Stop making passive-aggressive comments to women who comment here about how unsatisfactory they are as partners–you’re clearly an extreme outlier if you don’t even watch much porn while single.

    387 was rude, but not passive-aggressive. 390 was my way of backing off and just saying that it’s cool if her set-up works for her, but that for me personally, it sounds terrible.

    If my non-involvement with porn makes me an extreme outlier, so much the better. I’ve never been the herd type.

  • Ted D

    Sassy – you too? I guess pretty boys need lovin too…

    I never “made” anyone wear heels to bed. I simply suggested it, and she liked the idea.

    Good grief my immediate reaction was to get embarrassed and defensive, and I didn’t do anything wrong. THAT right there is what years of blue pill living gets a man. I still have to remind myself on occasion that it is indeed OK to have a “kink” of sorts.

  • Lokland

    As for anal. I don’t care how clean any woman thinks her ass is I love my dick way to much for that.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ted D

    Yeah. I’m in that boat as well. I first noticed him on the show Lost. The rest was history.

  • Ted D

    Wait. The singer for 30 Seconds was on Lost?!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ted D

    Haha! No. Ian Somerhalder was on lost.

    Jared Leto is just hot.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    My husband has asked me do some things before, too, and I happily obliged. It’s not a big deal if it’s not said in a negative, confrontational, “you’re deficient” tone. Which is what I meant by that post, as a response to the other one Lokland wrote.

    As an aside, I feel so lost when people talk about TV shows and celebrities. Does that mean I ask people to stop talking about it? Nah, I just tune out and sit it out.

  • anonymous

    Hope:
    “I don’t care about romantic novels either or Twilight or other related female genre stuff. It makes me weird, abnormal, strange”

    We must’ve been separated at birth, although years apart. lol

    Hope
    “If you want a normal female, 99% of the time they’re going to be into the celebrity thing and tingle for whathisname and vampires.”

    Yes.
    Only I don’t think the woman has to go on and on about x celebrity in front of her SO unless he does the same in her presence.
    Now, if you’re the odd female who’s NOT into any of that, you’d be hard pressed to find other female friends who aren’t, so you have to put up with some of the gushing.

  • Herb

    @Hope:

    Look, men have their urges and scratch them (polygamy via varieties of porn), and women have theirs and scratch them (hypergamy via celebrities). It seems strange for men to claim that it’s less acceptable to talk about celebrities than to jack off to porn. Unless both are unacceptable?

    We generally don’t do it in front of the women in our life. That’s the biggest difference.

    If a guy beat off to porn in front of his gf/wife she’d have a right to be insulted. Same as if she gushes about the guy in whatever and how he’s hot and he’d be great to be with.

    Make sense?

    I would also point out a large number of women will claim viewing porn counts as a adultery and is, thus, ground for divorce. Can think of at least one movie with that as a plot device.

  • anonymous

    Herb: “I would also point out a large number of women will claim viewing porn counts as a adultery and is, thus, ground for divorce.”

    Grounds for divorce is going too far.
    Being upset if the husband’s leaving the wife wanting, while he rejects her and turns to porn…. understandable.
    Being upset if the wife is deliberately withholding sex, not understandable.

  • Herb

    @M3

    Except that ‘locker room’ talk seems to be breaking out of locker rooms and into living rooms, dining rooms, bedrooms, open street, tee veee, media, sex and the city, etc….

    Very much this…it isn’t the fact she thinks it, but the fact I get my face rubbed in it while I’m not expected to notice other women exist even privately.

    @Hope:

    I think this is a sexual double-standard that will continue though, because like it or not, men are expected to be a certain way, and women are expected to be a certain way, and the ways are different. The notch count double standard is just the tip of the iceberg.

    Then I expect no whining about the count double standard for women.

    Either double standards are out regardless of what gender they favor or they are in regardless of what gender they favor.

    Of the women I dated the one who I hold in the lowest regard is not even my ex but the one after her who said “just because I’m a feminist and I demand equality doesn’t men I don’t also expect to be treated like a princess.” That is encouraged way too much in that cultural brain washing you bring up and needs to stop.

    In fact, given we’ve drifted here on this post shows how deep our culture is demanding the double standard. It’s a great way to chew up men and spit them out before they get married, making the ratio worse when you try at 30.

  • Emily

    Although I have “celebrity crushes” that I find attractive, and even though I might gush about them to my sisters or my girlfriends, I don’t lust after them in the same way that I would with real people.

    To use an example from my recent Downton Abbey obsession:

    I think that Matthew Crawley is soooooooooooo dreamy, and I care waaay too much about his love story with Lady Mary (no spoilers! I’m not done watching it!) But ultimately, I don’t want him to be with me. I want him to be with Lady Mary.

    With somebody who I actually had feelings for, I would make me sad/angry to see them with another person. If Lady Mary tried to hit on my boyfriend, I’d scratch her eyes out. (Well not really, but you get the idea. :P)

    Haha I hope that makes sense. I also don’t tend to fantasize about celebrities when I’m alone. (YMMV.)

    I do try to avoid that sort of talk in front of my boyfriend, especially if we’re around other people. It just seems disrespectful.

  • Herb

    @anon 474:

    Grounds for divorce is going too far.
    Being upset if the husband’s leaving the wife wanting, while he rejects her and turns to porn…. understandable.
    Being upset if the wife is deliberately withholding sex, not understandable.

    How about wife is only willing to have sex 100% on her terms and her enjoyment and when called on it “well, you came so you must have enjoyed it”.

    Sometimes it’s actually more honest or at least humane to just withhold sex.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy; hope
    “Lokland, some men ask their significant others to try out scenes from porn, and supposedly the huge explosion of anal sex (no pun intended) is because of porn. There are men who get their women to dress up, wear heels, do threesomes or agree to getting other girls on the side (hey that sounds familiar). There are also men who tell their women that their boobs aren’t big enough and to get breast implants. These things happen. Some women put up with it, and some women walk.”

    And none of that is the same as simply admiring a few pictures of nekked ladies on your own time but not rubbing your SO’s face in it. Also, looking at a few pictures is not the same as jacking off to porn all day. So, you are simply changing the subject of the debate here – it’s not surprising that you would get a different answer.

    So, if you want to thing some celebrity is not – just don’t rub your SO’s face in it all the time, just like you wouldn’t want him to call you over to his computer while he comments on how much better the model’s tits are than yours.

    Now, back to the original argument of her saying “God I would so rape him”, we cannot avoid the practical issue that men seek exclusive sex in return for commitment. Taking into account what both parties seek in a relationship, this is essentially the same as a husband seeing a woman and saying “God, I wish I were married to her instead of you so she could be the mother of my children.”

  • Passer_By

    Correction to third paragraph above “So, if you want to think some celebrity is hot . . .”

    Need to proofread better.

  • this is Jen

    Author: Herb
    Comment:
    @anon 474:

    Grounds for divorce is going too far.
    Being upset if the husband’s leaving the wife wanting, while he rejects her and
    turns to porn…. understandable.
    Being upset if the wife is deliberately withholding sex, not
    understandable.

    How about wife is only willing to have sex 100% on her terms and her enjoyment
    and when called on it “well, you came so you must have enjoyed it”.

    Sometimes it’s actually more honest or at least humane to just withhold sex.
    ————————————————————————

    Youre right, herb, thats a horrible way to treat your spouse

  • Passer_By

    @herb
    “How about wife is only willing to have sex 100% on her terms and her njoyment and when called on it “well, you came so you must have enjoyed it”.

    Sometimes it’s actually more honest or at least humane to just withhold sex.”

    I think you misunderstood his or her comment – the comment was suggesting that wives don’t have cause to be upset when their husbands turn to porn as a consequence of the wife withholding sex. It wasn’t artfully worded, but that’s how I read the intent.

  • Lokland

    Question for the guys,

    How many of you have informed your SO about just how fucking hot Scarlett Johanssen is.
    Her tits and curves are just so perfect. Look at them, then theres that feminine coy thing shes got going on. Mind boggilingly hot, seriously.
    She is just perfect.

    Lets do a social experiment, find a good picute of Johanssen and repeat verbatim (or if your feeling inventive do it yourself) what I just said and see how many of our SOs respond positively or for that matter even neutrally.

    This is a female dread tactic pure and simple.
    Men don’t you dare use dread tactics on your woman its a horrible thing to do.
    However women reserve the right to use dread tactics on us till hells end. What we define is dreadful is irrelevant because women say its not dreadful therefore it can be a dreadful experience.

    I’m a hypocrite, I’ll admit it.
    I don’t expect the same courtesy but if women can’t atleast look inside themeselves and see that gushing over another man can hurt their SO then that is bitterly disappointing.

  • this is Jen

    Lets do a social experiment, find a good picute of Johanssen and repeat verbatim
    (or if your feeling inventive do it yourself) what I just said and see how many
    of our SOs respond positively or for that matter even neutrally.

    This is a female dread tactic pure and simple.
    Men don’t you dare use dread tactics on your woman its a horrible thing to do.
    However women reserve the right to use dread tactics on us till hells end.
    ————————————————————————–

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Dread works ( apparently on both sexes) and a little of it is a good thing :) Too much is a very very bad thing

  • anonymous

    Herb:
    “How about wife is only willing to have sex 100% on her terms and her enjoyment ”

    Totally fine if she’s in a relationship with…… herself.

  • Passer_By

    @Jen
    “I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Dread works ( apparently on both sexes) ”

    I’m sorry, but this is more than the dread otherwise discussed – which is the notion that if you turn into a bitch or stop appreciating him, he will have options. This is simply saying that, with the right guy, you would take the opportunity to spread your legs and choose his seed over your SO’s regardless of what your SO does (short of him becoming fabulously rich and famous and looking like Brad Pitt).

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    Your hypothetical situation for the guys only works on women who place high importance on who their men find attractive to begin with. I’ve already had this happen before to me several times, and I never cared. The fact that I didn’t care seemed to piss the guys off. I guess they wanted me to be jealous, hoping to covertly prove their self worth through my adoration. Once again, I failed that test miserably.

  • Lokland

    @jen

    No doubt it works.

    What I dislike is:

    male caused dread = bad
    female caused dread = good.

    Doesn’t sound like equality which is what I though everyone was after. Apparently even the people who think its bad to play for upper hand still want the upper hand. (I do not include myself here, I know firmly which group I’m in and I make no lies about it.)

  • this is Jen

    Author: Passer_By
    Comment:
    @Jen
    “I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Dread works ( apparently on both
    sexes) ”

    I’m sorry, but this is more than the dread otherwise discussed – which is the
    notion that if you turn into a bitch or stop appreciating him, he will have
    options. This is simply saying that, with the right guy, you would take the
    opportunity to spread your legs and choose his seed over your SO’s regardless of
    what your SO does (short of him becoming fabulously rich and famous and looking
    like Brad Pitt).

    WHat??? who said that??

  • anonymous

    Passerby: “I think you misunderstood his or her comment – the comment was suggesting that wives don’t have cause to be upset when their husbands turn to porn as a consequence of the wife withholding sex. It wasn’t artfully worded, but that’s how I read the intent.”

    Haha. I misunderstood him as well. Thanks for clarifying for me PB
    Yes, that’s what I meant.
    If the husband’s withholding sex and using porn instead, he’s wrong.
    But, if the wife’s withholding- causing him to turn to porn, then she’s wrong.
    Notartfullyworded?
    I should consider using that as a handle.

  • Sassy6519

    This is simply saying that, with the right guy, you would take the opportunity to spread your legs and choose his seed over your SO’s regardless of what your SO does (short of him becoming fabulously rich and famous and looking like Brad Pitt).

    I don’t remember any of the women here saying that.

    I might like the way a guy looks, but that doesn’t automatically equate to me wanting to hop on his package.

    Methinks the cuckoldry fear and feelings of low value are rearing their ugly heads right now.

    For now, I’m off to theatre rehearsals.

  • Lokland

    @Passer_By

    Yup that pretty much nails it on the head.

    Its bad for a relationship for woman to feel bad. However men feeling bad is totally acceptable and good for relationship.

    I wonder if this is cultural or biological. I don’t have a clue tbh.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Its bad for a relationship for woman to feel bad. However men feeling bad is totally acceptable and good for relationship.

      I don’t know if I missed something, but this, along with your earlier comment that men are not human beings? I’m flummoxed. I don’t think anyone has suggested any such thing. If they have, it’s not something that the women here support.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy
    “The fact that I didn’t care seemed to piss the guys off. I guess they wanted me to be jealous, hoping to covertly prove their self worth through my adoration. ”

    That’s because, intuitively, you know he has an infinite supply of sperm, and being attracted to another woman is not the same as wanting to swap you out – which is not to say that’s it’s ok for him to cheat on you. But if you’re guy had constantly said “I wish had a girlfriend like my buddy Jim’s”, you might take it more personally. A woman openly expressing the desire to take another man’s seed over her SO’s is, at a primal level, the same level of disrespect, given her limited number of wombs.

    You might not fully accept that, but ignore it at your own peril.

    Ted: Dump her ass if she can’t immediately start respecting you. At a gut level, she’s knows what she is doing, and you accepting it will only lower your value to her. Just my two cents – take it for what’s it worth.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy
    “I don’t remember any of the women here saying that. ”

    I’m talking about what Ted’s GF said – wasn’t putting words in your mouth.

  • Passer_By

    @Jen
    “WHat??? who said that??”

    Ted’s girlfriend – the broad who effectively started this debate (unless I didn’t look back far enough, in which case my bad). I’m just telling you what men hear when they hear a statement like hers.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ted’s girlfriend – the broad who effectively started this debate (unless I didn’t look back far enough, in which case my bad). I’m just telling you what men hear when they hear a statement like hers.

      OK, I guess I did miss something. Is this Ted’s current SO?

  • this is Jen

    Author: Lokland
    Comment:
    @jen

    No doubt it works.

    What I dislike is:

    male caused dread = bad
    female caused dread = good.

    Doesn’t sound like equality which is what I though everyone was after.
    Apparently even the people who think its bad to play for upper hand still want
    the upper hand. (I do not include myself here, I know firmly which group I’m in
    and I make no lies about it.)

    =————————————————————

    Well, I am in the group who thinks it goes both ways and both can be good. I also don’t think that anyone should go on and on and gush about how sexy someone else is in front of their S/O. But I also don’t believe that saying I think Taylor Kitsch is good looking means I want to leave my husband and go have sex with Taylor.

    Whichever camp that is, is the one I am in.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Lokland, there are definitely guys who use that and talk about how hot female celebrities are, including ScarJo or MegFox or whatshernames. There are also relationships where people fight and bicker all the time, then have hot makeup sex. Different strokes for different folks.

    It’s not my thing, and it’s not our thing. But most relationships are not to our taste. Other people might find our relationship really boring, too. :P

  • Passer_By

    @anon
    “Notartfullyworded?
    I should consider using that as a handle.”

    LOL. Good one.

  • this is Jen

    Author: Passer_By
    Comment:
    @anon
    “Notartfullyworded?
    I should consider using that as a handle.”

    LOL. Good one.
    —————————————————————————

    mine should be “Notartfullytyped”

  • Passer_By

    @jen
    “But I also don’t believe that saying I think Taylor Kitsch is good looking means I want to leave my husband and go have sex with Taylor. ”

    My wife always thought Ed Harris was hot before we got together and continued to afterwards. He’s getting a little long in the tooth now, so I assume he’s less hot. Either way, it never bothered me in the least, because I’m not dumb enough to think no other men are hot. It’s the excessive fawning and delving into their personal lives that would get annoying, especially when it obviously becomes about status. And public comments like “Oh, God, I would fuck him in an instant” would simply be unacceptable and would have immediately ended the relationship. Call me insecure all you want.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      And public comments like “Oh, God, I would fuck him in an instant” would simply be unacceptable and would have immediately ended the relationship. Call me insecure all you want.

      Any woman (or man) who would say such a thing is not LTR material. Period. That should be a dealbreaker. No ring!

  • Lokland

    @ Hope

    I get where your coming from.
    I’ll be honest if I heard my fiance say she wanted to rape another guy I’d cry. Its the biggest insult I could imagine recieveing other than her actually doing it.

    My problem is that everytime one of us guys mentions how much it hurts/sucks/we dislike it the argument back is “well it shouldn’t”.

    I don’t like someone else telling me how I should feel in response to their actions. That is morally wrong and it pisses me off. It might not hurt them but the inability to accept that it may hurt someone else is startingly.

    And if they do understand that it can hurt someone else it represents a complete lack of empathy. I see men here pulling their hair out trying to balance alpha-beta down to a tee but when something that goes against the female perogative is brought up its demonized.

    I think if this was real world people the response would be even more negative. My only option is that I couldn’t be with a person who continually made me feel like shit, whether or not they think it is wrong is irrelevant.

    Note: This all stems from Passer_By’s argument on cuckolding I’m just talking it out on the emotional and not biological level.

  • Emily

    >> ““The fact that I didn’t care seemed to piss the guys off. I guess they wanted me to be jealous, hoping to covertly prove their self worth through my adoration. ”

    I have a question for the guys. When your girl gets jealous is it…:
    * A good thing because it means she cares
    * Annoying
    * Neutral
    * Good but only in small doses/certain situations
    * Other

    …?

  • Lokland

    @ Emily

    Jealous because I actually did something wrong. Good.
    Jealous for no reason, annoying. If its continous, end relationship.

  • this is Jen

    Author: Passer_By
    Comment:
    @jen
    “But I also don’t believe that saying I think Taylor Kitsch is good looking
    means I want to leave my husband and go have sex with Taylor. ”

    My wife always thought Ed Harris was hot before we got together and continued to
    afterwards. He’s getting a little long in the tooth now, so I assume he’s less
    hot. Either way, it never bothered me in the least, because I’m not dumb enough
    to think no other men are hot. It’s the excessive fawning and delving into
    their personal lives that would get annoying, especially when it obviously
    becomes about status. And public comments like “Oh, God, I would fuck him in an
    instant” would simply be unacceptable and would have immediately ended the
    relationship. Call me insecure all you want.
    ———————————————————————————–

    I am happy to say I have never said anything of the sort. That’s exactly my point

  • M3

    @ Emily 501

    If she gets jealous in a cutesy way.. cute.

    If she gets jealous in an accusatory way.. insulted.

    I had/have never done anything to cause that reaction. I take my honor too seriously to play games of that type.

  • Passer_By

    @jen
    Having said what I said, looking back at the thread, this comment would bother me coming from my wife:

    “He was within 4miles of my house at an event ( not well publicized -) and I didn’t know it til later—::::pounding table with fist::::damn damn dman”

    Having a deep seeded desire to meet him at that level would be like me freaking out at a missed opportunity to miss some porn star. Maybe worse, in a way, for the reasons I stated above. Not sure whether to be insulted or view it as weird and teeny bopperish, or both. Either way, it goes well beyond admiring someone’s looks or body.

    Anyway, that’s just me, I guess, though I’m not as militant on the issue as Mahoney.

  • this is Jen

    Author: Passer_By
    Comment:
    @jen
    Having said what I said, looking back at the thread, this comment would bother
    me coming from my wife:

    “He was within 4miles of my house at an event ( not well publicized -) and I
    didn’t know it til later—::::pounding table with fist::::damn damn dman”

    Having a deep seeded desire to meet him at that level would be like me freaking
    out at a missed opportunity to miss some porn star. Maybe worse, in a way, for
    the reasons I stated above. Not sure whether to be insulted or view it as
    weird and teeny bopperish, or both. Either way, it goes well beyond admiring
    someone’s looks or body.

    Anyway, that’s just me, I guess, though I’m not as militant on the issue as
    Mahoney.
    ——————————————————————-

    Wow, then I either completely miscommunicated, or you rad it all wrong. As a matter of fact it was my husband who told me about it. (it was a sports event) And just saying I wanted to see what he looked like in person would mean I wanted to have sex with him?- Nah-not no way, not no how. Just wanted to compare to how he looks on TV.

    I apologize for the confusion.

    p.s. Mr Jen is HUGELY jealous, so I know this didnt bother him in the least. If it would have I would have sincerely apologized profusely and made it up to him ( wink)

  • this is Jen

    Also, I often don’t give enough info when I am writing. I guess I think “I know what I mean in my own head-so everyone knows it too”

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Interesting topic we already have this discussion before and is just more proof that men can’t stand desirable men unless they think they are similar to them somehow.
    Some say is the double standard but in my culture were is normal for a guy to admire other women in front of them there is a similar reaction to any hot male celebrity of the moment. Men spent a lot of time trying to paint them in the worst light as a way to diminish the competition “he is gay, he is not that talented and so on….” Funny enough some guys are more understanding of this and just indulge their SO in whatever celebrity they like we had a couple of male members in the Luis Miguel club that were there because their wives and girlfriends were fans and they wanted to know when the next album or concert was so they could buy them as gifts.
    I really don’t know how this affected the dynamic though. So far they seem to be loving couples, but I might be wrong, YMMV.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    Methinks the cuckoldry fear and feelings of low value are rearing their ugly heads right now.

    Idk. I can’t tell you how it is for other guys, but I just feel like… hey, if you’re so hot on that, go for it–I’m not stopping you. Hope noted (accurately, I think) that the whole celeb thing stems from a hypergamous fantasy: the celebrity male is desirable to women because he has status. The same as with the typical heroes in romance novels. I understand it. And what’s more, I don’t think women are bad people for indulging in such fantasies. I just also don’t find it the least bit attractive. I hear women talk about Team Edward or Team Jacob and rather than envy or fear of cuckolding I feel a bit of pity. For my women, she’d better be Team Jesus and only Team Jesus. Or else, bye-bye.

    Other guys are obviously fine with their SO’s crushing on other men. And if they and their loved ones can sustain long-term satisfying relationships, then I’m certainly not going to stop them. But whether it’s idealism or insecurity or me just being a cocky arrogant bastard who thinks he deserves more, I’m not down with that.

    From a personal standpoint, I don’t care if Sue swoons or appreciates and I don’t care if Jen was thinking “damn damn damn” over a guy that makes her brain stop working or if she was just mildly disappointed that she missed an opportunity to compare an on-screen actor to his flesh-and-blood body. So I apologize to both of them if I was rude.

    From a personal standpoint, I just care what my own gf does. I accept that that type of shit flies with some other guys (though I have a hard time understanding why beyond some cynical reasons), but it just doesn’t fly with me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JM

      From a personal standpoint, I just care what my own gf does. I accept that that type of shit flies with some other guys (though I have a hard time understanding why beyond some cynical reasons), but it just doesn’t fly with me.

      I can tell you this. Debating who’s hot and who’s not is a favorite pastime of girls when they get together. I’ve heard the debates about Brad Pitt, Ben Affleck, Jake Gyllenhaal, et al. Owen Wilson came up and introduced himself to my daughter once, and that generated a good half hour of debate. (Most girls thought he was old and gross.)

      If one of the girls said, “Oh, I have no opinion, I only have eyes for Jesus” she’d be booed out of the room and called No Fun. Maybe your gf is that girl, IDK. But I’ve actually never heard a woman say something like that in all my days.

  • this is Jen

    From a personal standpoint, I don’t care if Sue swoons or appreciates and I
    don’t care if Jen was thinking “damn damn damn” over a guy that makes her brain
    stop working or if she was just mildly disappointed that she missed an
    opportunity to compare an on-screen actor to his flesh-and-blood body. So I
    apologize to both of them if I was rude.

    ————————————————————————————–
    JM,

    We’re cool.

    I just am fascinated by hearing how different people feel about all this stuff. There sure is a long continuom of reactions.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jen,

    I just am fascinated by hearing how different people feel about all this stuff.

    Me too, actually. I’m having a hard time getting my mind around the POV of a man in this situation. From my perspective a man who’s cool with that must:

    a. lack self-esteem or self-respect
    b. be getting some on the side
    c. have his own fantasy girls he’s busy thinking about

    or,

    d. not be all that interested in his wife sexually.

    (e) would be, he IS bothered by it but keeps his trap shut and deals with it. But that would fall in the same category as (a) I think.

    Though I’d love to hear from more guys who are cool with this whole thing.

  • Passer_By

    @jen

    I see – then you probably never presented it as anything other than thinking he was hot and joking a little about it – which is cool, and not disrespectful in my view (JM may feel differently).

    What Ted’s GF did was different to me, even if she plays it off as no big deal.

    On the other hand, I don’t think my wife would like it if I kept talking about how hot some particular celeb woman was. Intuitively, I think most men know enough not to go there, so there is a double standard on even that, perhaps because women are judged for their looks more than men, I dunno.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I want to mention that I remember once a girl spitting the “I could f*ck him” and one of the guys not even his boyfriend, she was single, saying “He won’t f*ck you” Cold shower right there.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Passerby,

    I’d be cool with my gf thinking another man was hot. I’d even be cool with her saying it. I wouldn’t be cool with her having a “thing” for a particular guy. And I wouldn’t be cool with her thinking he was hotter than me–even from an “objective” standpoint. Not that I’d get bitter. I’d just get going.

    And in the case of Ted’s SO, if my gf said she’d so rape a guy, I’d get up and walk out.

    The only time I’d get bitter was if it was a woman I had children with. Then I’d be stuck with her because of the kids. Then I’d probably end up hating her.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ana,

    and one of the guys not even his boyfriend, she was single, saying “He won’t f*ck you” Cold shower right there.

    Honestly, that’s what I was thinking when Ted told the story about his So, but I didn’t want to come off as too rude. I was thinking if she said, “I’d so rape him,” I’d respond, “You’d have to,” and then leave. That seems to me the correct response to that sort of comment.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    “My only option is that I couldn’t be with a person who continually made me feel like shit, whether or not they think it is wrong is irrelevant.”

    Lokland, for me that hits the nail on the head. I agree that no one should stay in a situation where they are made continually to feel badly.

    It’s very clear that this feeling is very unique to each person. For Susan in the OP, it’s:

    “What happens when we see the man we love flirting with other women?  Responding to them, maybe even encouraging them? How do we feel? Lucky that he has options, that he could leave and get another woman with ease?  God no. We feel ashamed. Why is the man who claims to love us seeking affirmation and sexual validation from other women?”

    And for some of the gentlemen here, it’s hearing the women in your lives commenting / vocalizing in front of you on the looks / sex appeal of another man—a celebrity or actor, perhaps.

    To me, each concern is equally valid, and would be diminishing if the other were to hear “you’re just being sensitive” or “I don’t get that” in response to airing concerns.

    It’s important that we understand and respect our partner’s limits on these issues.

    @OTC, Elisha Cuthbert seemed incandescent to me in her youth, but I think some of that has faded as she’s gotten older. What do you think? She’s in Happy Endings on ABC and she doesn’t have the glow to me, anymore.

  • Sassy6519

    And I wouldn’t be cool with her thinking he was hotter than me–even from an “objective” standpoint. Not that I’d get bitter. I’d just get going.

    Wait, she can’t even think another man is objectively better looking than you?

    I hope she is able to continue filling the mighty big shoes you have given her. It would be an awfully long fall from the pedestal she’s on right now.

  • M3

    I follow the ‘whats good for the goose’ approach.

    I’m not stupid nor naive. I know the statistical probability that a celeb is most likely a celeb because on the bell curve of attractiveness, he’s at the top of the bell. I’m not an idiot. I recognize that.

    Where my problem stems from is not in realizing that women find a particular man’s features attractive. It’s the reaction.

    There is leaps and bounds difference between a really (insert attraction descriptor here) guy walking by, my SO taking a look, putting her finger on her chin, raising an eyebrow and saying ‘Hmmm, not bad’. Hell, i’d probably turn around and say ‘Hey, you’re right!’

    AND

    having that same man walk buy, and reducing my SO to the mental state of a retarded 16 year old girl, blushing and chewing on her lip to prevent her from screaming ‘omfg did you see who that was, it was Damon from VD, omg omg omg… he’s so f’n hawwwwt’.

    If you think he’s that fucking hawt, i am obviously chopped liver at this point and know who you’d rather be with after making a statement like that. And i will make it my life’s mission to make you feel like lower than dirt about yourself before i kick you to the curb if you pull that shit on me.

    Any reaction that perceptually places another man on a sexual level higher than me, instant boner killer, instant disrespect, and instant GTFO.

  • Passer_By

    @mahoney

    “And I wouldn’t be cool with her thinking he was hotter than me–even from an “objective” standpoint. ”

    As Godlike as I am, I’m thinking it’s very unlikely that any woman in the world would geniunely consider me to be objectively better looking than every other man in the world, and it’s even less likely that I would ever meet that woman and end up being attracted to her. Which is not the same as being ok with my wife or GF pointing out how much hotter another guy is than I am.

  • Passer_By

    What M3 said, but without bothering to have a life’s mission before kicking her to the curb, because life is too short.

  • purplesneakers

    I don’t have celebrity crushes (I do get crushes on characters in movies or novels), but there are actors and actresses that I enjoy watching and make an effort to watch the work of, and if I had the chance to meet them, I would do that if it were free, short, and convenient. This varies from the hot guy in Avatar (mostly because he’s so hot) to Jennifer Lawrence (also very nice to look at, and very talented) to the guy who played the most deliciously evil villain, Russell Edgington, on True Blood. I wonder if Myers-Briggs types have anything to do with this. I’m an INTP (I think) and have always sort of lived in imaginary worlds, so I don’t think much of getting caught up in fictional worlds. I know it’s not real, and I’m not going to be comparing any boyfriend to Perseus. That said, I try not to talk about attractiveness of guys in front of straight guys I know, and if I were in a relationship that would be even more true. Unless they ask, and some of my guy friends have, just because they have a hard time figuring out why girls like me sometimes like the weird, unexpected guys we do (met with questions of “really? that guy?”).

    Sassy-

    Yeah. I’m in that boat as well. I first noticed him on the show Lost. The rest was history.

    Have you ever seen the movie “The Rules of Attraction”? It was before he was on Lost, and there is a wonderful scene with Somerhalder dancing, and some other good ones that would probably satisfy your inner Somerhalder fan. :P Definitely check it out!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @purplesneakers

      I do get crushes on characters in movies or novels

      I think that’s actually a great example of how harmless and innocent it can be. How many women have had palpitations over Mr. Darcy? I’d venture to say millions. And yet we don’t want him for ourselves – we want him for Elizabeth. I think that’s what’s getting lost in this discussion. Women love stories, and men are often featured in the stories we love best.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I hope she is able to continue filling the mighty big shoes you have given her. It would be an awfully long fall from the pedestal she’s on right now.

    I hope so, too. Though I don’t think I’ve got her on a pedestal.

  • Lokland

    @purplesneakers

    “Rules of Attraction”

    Good movie. I know who that guy is now.

  • Sassy6519

    I wonder if Myers-Briggs types have anything to do with this. I’m an INTP (I think) and have always sort of lived in imaginary worlds, so I don’t think much of getting caught up in fictional worlds.

    I think there may be some truth to this. I am an ENTP. I get where you are coming from about the imaginary/fictional worlds.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    Thing is, when I’m in a relationship, I’m in all the way. And I expect my partner to be in just as much. Obviously I don’t expect her to think I’m the best looking man in the world when she meets me, but I expect it to be a bit like me: I fall in love and she becomes my ideal. That’s how I love. And I’d just as soon NOT love if I’m going to be with someone who can’t reciprocate in kind.

    Maybe that’s unrealistic. I hope not, because I like being in a relationship and I love my gf at the moment. Maybe I’m naive though. I’m an idealist and idealism is always somewhat naive, I suppose. But if I could have love the way I wanted it, I’d rather just go the Roissy route and bang as many girls as possible than compromise in a less-than-satisfying relationship.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    *if I couldn’t have love the way I wanted it….

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Just googled that Somerhalder guy. He is way too pretty-faced. In my opinion, not more attractive than my husband.

    I like imaginary worlds, too, and I love a good fictional story.
    I just can’t see the appeal of male celebrities.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    Thing is, when I’m in a relationship, I’m in all the way. And I expect my partner to be in just as much. Obviously I don’t expect her to think I’m the best looking man in the world when she meets me, but I expect it to be a bit like me: I fall in love and she becomes my ideal. That’s how I love. And I’d just as soon NOT love if I’m going to be with someone who can’t reciprocate in kind.

    Maybe that’s unrealistic. I hope not, because I like being in a relationship and I love my gf at the moment. Maybe I’m naive though. I’m an idealist and idealism is always somewhat naive, I suppose. But if I could have love the way I wanted it, I’d rather just go the Roissy route and bang as many girls as possible than compromise in a less-than-satisfying relationship.

    That’s charming.

    At some point, however, you have to wonder what the probability would be of your ideals matching reality. Aside from you, I have never heard anyone express that their mate has to consider them the most attractive person of their gender. That concept just blows my mind.

    If your girlfriend isn’t a unicorn, which I highly doubt she is, your best bet is hoping that she never speaks of how attractive she finds other guys, despite whether or not she thinks they are.

    I’d find it exhausting, and have found it exhausting in the past, to try to tap dance for a man to that extent.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy

    “I’d find it exhausting, and have found it exhausting in the past, to try to tap dance for a man to that extent.”

    Really? I don’t find it difficult at all not to tell my wife how hot some other woman is, let alone gush about it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Obviously, I have to go on believe my gf’s the Unicorn for the moment. At least until I find reason to believe otherwise. But I don’t want her to tap dance around me. I want her to be honest. If she feels other guys are hotter than me, I hope she mentions it, so that I can make an informed decision about my relationship with her.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Passer_By

    He doesn’t even want her to think that another man is more attractive than he is. That level of tap dancing would be tiresome. How is that even possible? She may not say it, but he can’t monitor her thoughts.

    Or can he…………

    (Dun Dun Dun)

  • Lokland

    @ Bb

    “To me, each concern is equally valid, and would be diminishing if the other were to hear “you’re just being sensitive” or “I don’t get that” in response to airing concerns.

    It’s important that we understand and respect our partner’s limits on these issues.”

    I agree.
    I don’t get why my fiance finds it hurtful when I get emotional with other woman. I still don’t fucking do it. On a hindbrain level it makes no friggin sense to me however I get it up front in my forebrain(?) and I just don’t do it.

    However, asking women in general to do the same thing here is like sticking you hand in a jar of barbed wire filled with salt.

    They don’t appear to either be capable of or want to (I’m not sure which) understand or empthize with their SOs POV. Its just a “fuck off, how could you possibly feel that way” response.

    As for the inability to realize that they are using female dark game on their SO to terrorize him. I just don’t get how the hamster can rationalize cruelty.

    Very disheartening luckily my fiance gets it. She doesn’t gush about her crushes or that dude witht he really big arms because she gets that its both disrespectful and an excellent way to make me leave.

    In regards to Teds situation. I tip-toed around it and rewrote it in and out of previous comments a few times but if I ever heard my fiance say/sugest/hint she wanted another dudes dick inside her I couldn’t love her anymore. It would be emotionally over before I could even get out the door.

    I’m with Passer_By though, no point getting revenge theres plenty more tail to chase.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    Catch-up.

    Teds SO (not sure if current or previous) says “I would rape him”. Not sure who him is.

    Debate ensues. Women find comment acceptable. Men think women are nuts and round the wheel goes.

    Anyway thats where the “mens can feel like shit and it doesn’t matter” is coming from.

    Hence my problem,
    Women, female dark game = okay, male dark game = devil magic.
    Men, both forms of dark game are devil magic.

    And JM wants perfection.

    Other than that its all normal.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Now I’m really worried for Ted. He’s put his heart and soul into this relationship and that’s a very, very bad thing for a woman to say, or feel. Perhaps she was just mouthing off and didn’t mean it, but I can understand why men feel it’s very offensive, and I do not agree with women condoning it.

      I have never in 30 years implied that I’d like to have sex with another man. I think it would destroy my relationship if I said that.

  • purplesneakers

    Just googled that Somerhalder guy. He is way too pretty-faced. In my opinion, not more attractive than my husband.

    I like imaginary worlds, too, and I love a good fictional story.
    I just can’t see the appeal of male celebrities.

    Yeah, Somerhalder is one that I know is objectively very good-looking, but not ‘sexy’ to me. Sam Worthington, otoh, more ‘rugged’ than ‘pretty’ and more attractive as a result.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Lokland, I never said that women shouldn’t respect their men. In fact I think women should keep the gushing to a minimum and be respectful even if they do find other men attractive. They should have empathy for men’s feelings and sensitivities.

    As for the inability to realize that they are using female dark game on their SO to terrorize him. I just don’t get how the hamster can rationalize cruelty.

    But at the same time I do not believe most women are using “dark game” to “terrorize” their significant others. They don’t think they’re doing anything cruel or bad. It’s just more or less normal for a lot of people, and it doesn’t even register for them.

    Each couple is different. Earlier this thread I said it would be hurtful if my husband openly flirted with other women. But the other guys were saying that it would turn on other women. I agreed and said it probably does work on SOME other women. That could be said to be pretty deliberate dark game. Are those men also rationalizing cruelty?

    Every guy’s definition of “gushing” is different, too. I wouldn’t say another real living guy is attractive in front of my husband. One time I mentioned a made-up video game character in a single player game was attractive because the character reminded me of him, and he still didn’t like that even after I pointed out all the similarities. I stopped mentioning it. Most guys wouldn’t care whatsoever.

    Feelings can be inadvertently hurt. The point is to correct the mistakes and not make them in the future. The zero-tolerance being thrown around here is a hostile tone in my opinion.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    It’s just not even a matter of “making a mistake” in my opinion. I’m not being hostile when I say I would walk. I simply don’t want to be with someone who finds other men more attractive than me. It just doesn’t correspond to my idea of love.

    I wouldn’t bear a grudge to any woman for not living up to my ideal, but I wouldn’t compromise that ideal on anyone’s account.

  • Lokland

    @ Hope

    My opinion on male game is just don’t do it. Other than that I speak for no one else.

    As for the “zero tolerance” excluding JM I think ALL of us are referring exclusively to the “I want another mans penis inside of me” statement. Below that it simple something that needs to be talked out with zero tolerance afterwards.

    Anyway I’ve realized all the guys are hung up on the “I want to rape him” bit whereas women are arguing about finding guys attractive. We’re talking apples and bannanas.

    Note: gushing for me is equivalent to “I want his penis inside of me.”

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    Comment 431 from Ted. Hilarity thereafter ensues.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy

    Your prior comment indicated that you found it exhausting not to speak of it to other men – that was the tap dancing. I think you’re changing the meanding now. Obviously, no one can control all their thoughts.

  • Lokland

    @ Hope

    cont’d

    Male dark game, not male game.

    Last, EVERY SINGLE GUY who has commented here has said they hate it when their SO even gushes about another guy.
    This is situation normal for guys.

  • Sassy6519

    Teds SO (not sure if current or previous) says “I would rape him”. Not sure who him is.

    Debate ensues. Women find comment acceptable. Men think women are nuts and round the wheel goes.

    I want to touch base on this. I never commented on what Ted D’s SO said. I wouldn’t recommend saying something like that to any man.

    My point was that simply saying that another man is attractive seems to send some men into a spiral. That’s what I don’t get.

    I’ve known some women who pitch a hissy if their men even dare to glance in the general direction of another woman. I also know some women, like myself, who aren’t bothered in the least if a guy appreciates the beauty of someone else. There is obviously a range that people fall into, with regards to this.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Lokland,

    Just to be clear, I have no problem with my gf finding other men attractive. The issue is whether she finds them “more” attractive than me. And also, whether she’d disrespect me by constant mention or infatuation with another man/other men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JM

      Just to be clear, I have no problem with my gf finding other men attractive. The issue is whether she finds them “more” attractive than me. And also, whether she’d disrespect me by constant mention or infatuation with another man/other men.

      First, there’s no comparing some celeb to the man you’re in love with. I see and feel a million things when I look upon my beloved’s face. Discussing the relative attractiveness of movie stars is for women like discussing professional athletes is for men. It’s just sport, nothing more.

      Of course your gf doesn’t find any man more attractive than you. You are the man she’s in love with. You’re in the limerence phase – mild obsession – which is the intensive pair-forming stage of love. It’s fantastic, and it won’t last forever, which you will ultimately be thankful for.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy

    Sorry, that last one didn’t read right. What I meant was that your original comment suggested that you found it exhausting not to speak to your SO of your extreme attraction to other men.

  • Passer_By

    @lokland
    “Last, EVERY SINGLE GUY who has commented here has said they hate it when their SO even gushes about another guy.”

    Well, to be clear, in my case, “if” not “when”. I have two kids now, so we’d have to discuss why it’s wrong if she did that (though it’s hard to imagine her doing it). Had it happened before that, it wouldn’t have been worth the discussion.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I have two kids now, so we’d have to discuss why it’s wrong if she did that (though it’s hard to imagine her doing it). Had it happened before that, it wouldn’t have been worth the discussion.

    Yea, it would be terrible if it began happening after the kids were around. I’d feel bad for anyone, man or woman, who found themselves in that situation.

  • Sassy6519

    The issue is whether she finds them “more” attractive than me. And also, whether she’d disrespect me by constant mention or infatuation with another man/other men.

    How is this possible if you are not objectively the most attractive man of all men? Do you honestly not know of men higher than you on the physical attractiveness scale?

  • Lokland

    @ Passer_By

    Good point. I’m in the same boat, my fiance hasn’t ever told me how much she wants that dude inside her. Nor has she ever gushed about this guy or that one.

    I’m 100% secure in her fidelity.

    I just find it infuriating and funny that we had a 150 comment debate on whether or not its okay for woman to want to fuck other men but not actually do it.
    The ridculousness of the suggestion is mind-boggling in and of itself let alone that it had to be debated.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Sassy, it is possible with subjective attraction. I am definitely more attracted to my husband than all other men. No celebrity comes close. Body, heart, mind, soul, personality, and the whole package.

    Not sure if that’s an NF thing or just a quirk of being in love. I hear mothers feel that way about their kids, too, and think their kid is the “best.” It’s a different kind of love of course, but sort of the same idea.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy

    Mahoney’s point is pretty obvious. He’s not saying he’s the most attractive man on earth. He believes the process of falling in love, and the associated bonding, should cause people to view their SOs as more attractive than anyone else. I think it’s an overstatement and a bit idealistic, but I don’t think it’s too much to ask people to pay genuine lip service to it for the benefit of their SOs. Shouldn’t be that exhausting.

  • Passer_By

    @lokland
    “I just find it infuriating and funny that we had a 150 comment debate on whether or not its okay for woman to want to fuck other men but not actually do it.”

    Again, not to be hypertechnical, but what they want to do from time to time they can’t control (neither can I). What they uncontrollably gush like 16 year olds about wanting to do is another matter.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hope and Passer_By

    I’m not talking about any subjective standpoint. I’m talking about a solely objective assessment, since Jesus Mahoney made this comment earlier in the thread:

    I’d be cool with my gf thinking another man was hot. I’d even be cool with her saying it. I wouldn’t be cool with her having a “thing” for a particular guy. And I wouldn’t be cool with her thinking he was hotter than me–even from an “objective” standpoint. Not that I’d get bitter. I’d just get going.

    He said, even from an objective perspective, he wouldn’t be okay with his SO thinking another man was more attractive than him. How is that even expected to be possible?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    There is no such thing as “objectively attractive.” When I said “from an ‘objective’ standpoint” earlier, I was being a a bit of a wise ass. Attraction is a purely subjective experience.

    I don’t know how I rate compared to other men–I don’t give it much thought. I get your POV on the subject, I get that you don’t believe it’s possible for a woman to think her man is the *most* attractive. I’m working with the assumption that my gf feels differently. If I find out I’m wrong, I’ll be single again.

  • Lokland

    @ Passer_By

    “Again, not to be hypertechnical, but what they want to do from time to time they can’t control (neither can I). What they uncontrollably gush like 16 year olds about wanting to do is another matter.”

    Lol damn man. Yeah I get your point and I’ll concede your right on that as well.

    So rephrased, stating publically “I want to fuck another dude because he is so….” is unacceptable.

    Work for you?

  • Passer_By

    LOL. Sorry for being so hung up on semantics.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Debating who’s hot and who’s not is a favorite pastime of girls when they get together.

    I don’t think I’d mind if my gf got involved in that debate. As I said before, I don’t expect her to think I’m the *only* attractive man in the world. I just wouldn’t be okay with her thinking other men were *more* attractive than me.

    Apparently I’m alone in that. That’s okay with me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    but I don’t think it’s too much to ask people to pay genuine lip service to it for the benefit of their SOs. Shouldn’t be that exhausting.

    I don’t want lip service.

  • Lokland

    @Passer_By

    No worries, I wanted it just .. so anyway.

    @ JM, Susan

    I don’t care if she debates whether X is hotter than Y or B is better than C. My only real demand is that she prefer Lokland over all other letters. (Unlike JM, I ain’t ever gonna win sexiest body of the year. I’ll be perfectly happy with top choice not necessarily sexiest body of all time award.)

    As for discussing my private bits thats an ohh hell no. Breakup worthy offense.

    Other than that I don’t really give a fuck who her friends think is hot.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    This whole debate makes me wonder if people like Roissy and Roosh aren’t just disappointed idealists.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This whole debate makes me wonder if people like Roissy and Roosh aren’t just disappointed idealists.

      That has always been my assumption.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Sassy, objectively I know there are guys who are “considered” more attractive than my husband, but personally *I* don’t consider them more attractive — that’s the subjective part.

    Susan

    If one of the girls said, “Oh, I have no opinion, I only have eyes for” she’d be booed out of the room and called No Fun.

    Yeah that’s me lol. I’m the no fun girl. But I do sit around and listen to it. It doesn’t last long, and the conversation inevitably turns to something else, because my female friends are versed in a lot of different topics.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I need to hold out for a woman like Hope. Or hold out hope that my own gf is like that.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    This whole debate makes me wonder if people like Roissy and Roosh aren’t just disappointed idealists.

    It’s possible.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    “This whole debate makes me wonder if people like Roissy and Roosh aren’t just disappointed idealists.”

    They turned their backs on the light path and went full on to gain dark polarity. But they’re still not pure enough in the darkness, because they’re helping people. :P

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    They turned their backs on the light path and went full on to gain dark polarity. But they’re still not pure enough in the darkness, because they’re helping people. :P

    Yea. Not to say that it’s right or excusable even, but I can empathize with them seeing it through that frame.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    “I have never in 30 years implied that I’d like to have sex with another man. I think it would destroy my relationship if I said that.”

    I have never in 30 years implied that I’d like to have sex with another man. I KNOW it would destroy my relationship if I said that.

    Fixed it for you. Anyway yeah, if my SO ever even indirectly implied it in some obscure way. I would walk.

    So I assume now my comments on female dark game make more sense.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      So I assume now my comments on female dark game make more sense.

      Yes, they do. I honestly don’t know what percentage of women would say something like that. I’d like to think it’s small, but based on reality shows and celeb gossip in the U.S. I fear it’s a high number. What can I say, I’m champion of the outliers.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    It’s possible.

    Nah easy punani can turn any man back into caveman instincts as easy access to high status men create more sluts. There is the fact that nature reward excess with pleasure hence we have the obesity epidemy and things like that. Of course nature punish excess with a short unhappy life but sadly few people notice that because they are too full of their own drugs to care, YMMV.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Jesus Mahoney, I wasn’t like this in my last LTR. It was a rather dysfunctional relationship.

    I think it is certainly possible your gf is like that. Certainly the “honeymoon period” SHOULD be like that, and it sounds like you’re in that. The key is to keep it going after the initial period of intensity.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    I’m still in the mild obsession phase a bit.

    From Wikipedia:

    “Tennov estimates, based on both questionnaire and interview data, that the average limerent reaction duration, from the moment of initiation until a feeling of neutrality is reached, is approximately three years. The extremes may be as brief as a few weeks or as long as several decades. When limerence is brief, maximum intensity may not have been attained.”

    I also like this:

    “David Brooks defines limerence as a potentially positive, unifying, transformative encounter with the divine, or oneness of mankind.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      Good for you! How long have you been married? I think that phase lasted for us until we had our first child – that was 5 years into the relationship. At that point, the obsession was with the baby :)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Hope
    How long had you been married? I always assumed that you and your husband had been together almost a decade or so.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    “Yes, they do. I honestly don’t know what percentage of women would say something like that. I’d like to think it’s small, but based on reality shows and celeb gossip in the U.S. I fear it’s a high number. What can I say, I’m champion of the outliers.”

    Pluralistic ignorance. But yeah I think this mindset is seeping out into the norm of society. We just spent 150 comments debating it here with some of the most logical women I’ve ever met, the rest of society is probably much further along in the indoctrination process.
    (The message being: men are less than human being is probably the end goal. Ohhh now see how allmy comments wrap together, I suprise myself sometimes.)

    @ Hope

    Wait you’ve been married for a decade?
    I assumed you were mid-lade twenties.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Anacaona, my husband and I met and fell in love when we were 25, which is about 3 years ago.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    2nd anniversary coming up. :) 1st anniversary was mostly sad due to the stillbirth unfortunately. This one will be better I hope!

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Anacaona, my husband and I met and fell in love when we were 25, which is about 3 years ago.

    Okay I though for some reason that it was longer…Mmmm were you commenting on the Rawness when you were still single? I’m not stalking you I swear I just read someone called Hope with a similar style.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    First, there’s no comparing some celeb to the man you’re in love with. I see and feel a million things when I look upon my beloved’s face. Discussing the relative attractiveness of movie stars is for women like discussing professional athletes is for men. It’s just sport, nothing more.

    I’m find with the discussions about the relative attractiveness of movie stars. I have friends who debate the same sort of thing and while I generally don’t get involved in the debates (I don’t really know who any of them are), I don’t object to it. Though I could see how comments in such a discussion might go too far.

    Whatever the case, that’s not really my issue. This whole debate started with a. you saying that you swooned for whatever his name was and that he had the most perfect body you’d ever seen on a man; b. Jen talking about how gaa-gaa she was over him; and c. the comment that Ted’s SO made about wanting to rape the rock star. Those aren’t things I’d want to hear from the mouth of my gf.

    Of course your gf doesn’t find any man more attractive than you. You are the man she’s in love with.

    That’s certainly how it seems. And it’s how I feel about her. And that’s how I like it. ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JM

      I didn’t say anything about Taylor K’s body. And I obviously set off alarms with the word swoon – really just colorful language. Mr. HUS is fully aware and not the least bit threatened.

      Honestly, I don’t feel the need to defend my relationship, or my acknowledgement of the physical beauty of men and women. So you don’t need to reply with:

      That’s cool. It’s just not for me.

      We get it. This molehill got jacked up into Mt. Everest.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    *find=fine

  • purplesneakers

    I think that’s actually a great example of how harmless and innocent it can be. How many women have had palpitations over Mr. Darcy? I’d venture to say millions. And yet we don’t want him for ourselves – we want him for Elizabeth. I think that’s what’s getting lost in this discussion. Women love stories, and men are often featured in the stories we love best.

    I always preferred Wickham, haha. Though the ‘shipping’ phenomenon when following a book/tv/movie series is a perfect example of this. It’s dominated almost entirely women, most of them teenage girls. I still feel like a ‘shipper’ even if I don’t want to be one–the story tugs at my heartstrings and I get immense emotional gratification out of a pair of characters I like becoming the “twu wuv” couple.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I always preferred Wickham, haha.

    Ohh boy you are in so for much tears. Wickham is the epitome of bad boy. Don’t tell me you think Marianne Dashwood should had ended with Willogby?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    I didn’t say anything about Taylor K’s body.

    You said, “I think he’s pretty close to physical perfection” in post 367.

    So you don’t need to reply with:

    That’s cool. It’s just not for me.

    No worries. I won’t jack up anymore molehills here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JM

      By physical perfection I meant this:

      tr

      But now that you mention it:

      tk

      I stand by that assessment, and it has nothing to do with my husband or my attraction to him. It’s apples and oranges.

  • purplesneakers

    Ohh boy you are in so for much tears. Wickham is the epitome of bad boy. Don’t tell me you think Marianne Dashwood should had ended with Willogby?

    Nah. I can forgive gambling and lying but not cheating. Though it’s interesting how that turned out, with Marianne thinking sensibly–not with Willoughby becoming ‘tamed.’ That doesn’t happen much in female-geared romance.

    Also, my parents eloped to get married, so I’m jut a big sucker for those stories.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Nah. I can forgive gambling and lying but not cheating. Though it’s interesting how that turned out, with Marianne thinking sensibly–not with Willoughby becoming ‘tamed.’ That doesn’t happen much in female-geared romance.

    I think the difference is that usually the bad boy is upfront about his bad ways. Willogby looked like a good proper gentleman, much like Wickham and it turned out a scoundrel. I think that is usually a deal breaker for most women. Finding out the man they love is not what he says it is. Much of romance genre is about discovering a guy has more good in them than they lead in, not the other way around.

    Also, my parents eloped to get married, so I’m jut a big sucker for those stories.

    My father stalked my mother so I get the whole kind of forgiving things that are not that romantic in real life. Still he didn’t wanted to marry Lydia till he was paid out that would surely be a different situation.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    “Yes, they do. I honestly don’t know what percentage of women would say something like that. I’d like to think it’s small, but based on reality shows and celeb gossip in the U.S. I fear it’s a high number. What can I say, I’m champion of the outliers.”

    I was frustrated yesterday.

    But its having to have debates on whether or not its wrong/right for a wife to want to have sex with another man. And then questioning why the men are saying GTFO without hesitation when their SO is talking about fucking other guys is truly mind boggiling.

    Last, the fact that not one woman here but you can see how this is female dark game terror being used on their SO is really fucked up.

    Your not even championing outliers in this case you seem to be a team of one.

    Anyway, if you want to know whats making all the guys here bitter its stuff like this where the essential message is “as a man your opinion is not as important as mine”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      But its having to have debates on whether or not its wrong/right for a wife to want to have sex with another man. And then questioning why the men are saying GTFO without hesitation when their SO is talking about fucking other guys is truly mind boggiling.

      Last, the fact that not one woman here but you can see how this is female dark game terror being used on their SO is really fucked up.

      As you know I missed this convo somehow. (I think it’s because sometimes Ted’s comments are TL;DR and I skim.) I need to go back and look at what women backed up his SO. I have a hard time believing that women here would back up the idea of a woman in a relationship looking to step out, but I’ll reserve judgment until I look over the thread.

      Anyway, if you want to know whats making all the guys here bitter its stuff like this where the essential message is “as a man your opinion is not as important as mine”.

      I don’t feel that way, and I think that the guys here have plenty of opportunity to voice their opinions. There are times when I frankly regretted giving men the floor because their opinion is not compatible with my mission here. That’s a judgment call I need to make in many threads, but in general I think the women here are quite respectful of the men and vice versa.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Thanks for sharing. Like I said, I won’t be making molehills into mountains on HUS any longer. Take care…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JM

      Thanks for sharing. Like I said, I won’t be making molehills into mountains on HUS any longer. Take care…

      Come on JM, don’t be that way. You know we value you highly around here. These discussions about women and celebrities are unproductive because I don’t think we’re working towards a better understanding. I know how you feel, and I respect it, but then someone mentions a hot actor and you take offense if that person is in a relationship. You said that the Taylor Kitsch stuff was not encouraging. Why? Because you’re disappointed to learn that women talk about men that way? The women here did that at 13 about New Kids on the Block and NSync. That is what girls do, because it’s fun, it’s just a form of entertainment and a way that women bond.

      The point is, our talking that way doesn’t mean we value our relationships less, would trade in our SOs for a celebrity, or even think in terms of comparing a celebrity to our SO. I know that I felt a little defensive when you suggested that – and then I think, “Why am I trying to convince people on the internet that I don’t want to have sex with Taylor Kitsch?”

      Of course you have every right to hold your SO to whatever standards you deem appropriate, but when you apply them to other women here we feel judged, or at least I do. And that’s very upsetting, because the idea of being unfaithful, even in spirit, is profoundly at odds with my own idea of my role in my relationship.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    “That is what girls do, because it’s fun, it’s just a form of entertainment and a way that women bond. ”

    My opinion on celebrities is different than JMs but this line speaks volumes on the problem guys are having.

    I can bond with my buddies by:
    drinking excessively, playing on a group of hot women in a club or hiring some strippers. These are all fun, entertaining and excellent ways to bond.

    The fact that it hurts my SO means I don’t do it.
    Fiance > herd.

    Do I think it stupid she gets offended when I hit on another women? Yeah.
    Do I still not do it? Yeah.

    Whereas in this case it appears that the female herd > SO.

    Man: It hurts when you ….
    Women: Get over it we’re bonding.

    Its not wrong but I wouldn’t voluntarily walk into that relationship.

    ————————————————–

    “I have a hard time believing that women here would back up the idea of a woman in a relationship looking to step out”

    They didn’t. They endorsed the idea that its acceptable for women to want to step out and subsequently verbalize and repeat that to their SO ad nauseum. (Thats taken to an extreme, in reality its more mild). Actually doing it wasn’t discussed.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Idk. Boys talk about that kind of thing too. We all talked about this or that female celebrity that we’d want to fuck. But I’m not 13 anymore. And from my perspective, talking about some other guy is pretty much physically perfect or how he’s so hot that it makes your brain stop working is not much different than flirting hard with other women when you’re in a relationship. I can’t help but feel bad for a guy when I listen to his wife or gf talk like that. I can’t help but feel that he’s being chumped a bit.

    Obviously you feel differently. So I backed off. Mostly I was debating Sassy, who seemed to think it was absurd that I would want to be with a woman who is most attracted to me or that I’d walk out if my gf said, like Ted’s SO, that she would “so rape” whatever rock star Ted’s SO was talking about. The only reason I even brought up the whole issue with you and Jen again was because you seemed to think I was saying that I wouldn’t want my gf to find other men attractive at all.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      For the record, I disagree with Sassy and have no words for Ted’s SO. I am sorry if I offended you. I can only say that I’ve never said anything in my husband’s absence that I haven’t also said in his presence, and he and I are cool. As Hope has pointed out, we all have our differences in relationships.

      And I totally hear that you recognize that your gf isn’t blind, but that you don’t want to hear her gushing about any other men. That’s fair, I can’t blame you.

  • Escoffier

    As a general matter, men are more threatened/upset at hearing their women talk about the hotness of other men than women are upset men for talking about the hotness of other women. There are probably biological reasons for this. Women know that men are indiscriminate horndogs and so will forgive a little talk as just blowing off steam as long as it does not lead anywhere. Also, male cheating is less destructive than female cheating (or at least is perceived to be, though I think the perception is based on reality) because of cuckoldry.

    When women talk about hot guys however, men perceive that as more of a threat because they know that women are not as into racking up body counts and are also not as into looks for its own sake. If she’s fixated on some other guy, chances are higher that she’s really crazy about him to the detriment of you.

    So, really, both sexes probably should not be talking about hot celebs or others with their SOs but women need to be more careful about it than men.

  • Escoffier

    On this whole question of who is “more” attractive … unless you are married to Helen of Troy (not recommended), then it’s inevitable that you are going to see objectively more beautiful people than your SO all the time. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you want them more. There are all kinds of reasons to want someone and the beautiful person may lack a ton of them. Also, simply by being together for a while you create a bond that is (one hopes) more powerful than mere physical attraction.

    But even then, yeah, you might feel the pull of another rather strongly from time to time. This is where civilization, morality, virtue, and all the rest come into play. You just can’t act on it. Well, you CAN, but you SHOULDN’T and anyway even if you do, it would be interesting to know the % of people who are truly happier “after” than they were “before.” I bet it’s very low. Athol says that only 3% of affairs lead to a lasting marriage. So think about that before you ditch your SO for someone a click or two higher in SMV.

  • Escoffier

    Oh, meant to add, just because you are seeing more objectively beautiful people than your SO all the time doesn’t mean you should talk about it in front of her/him. In fact, I highly recommend SingTFU.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Oh, meant to add, just because you are seeing more objectively beautiful people than your SO all the time doesn’t mean you should talk about it in front of her/him. In fact, I highly recommend SingTFU.

      I consider staring or ogling people IRL totally rude. Neither men nor women should “just look” while in the company of their SO. That’s in the same category as instilling dread in my view, and I would consider it a sign of profound disrespect. I certainly would not do it.

      For me, gushing about celebrities or characters in novels is on a different plane, but if that upsets one’s SO, one shouldn’t do that either.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Thing is, if men “display” and women “select”, then a woman saying, “omg he’s so hot,” is really not a whole lot different in terms of disrespect than a man flirting with another woman.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    There’s no such thing as “objectively” beautiful.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    But whatever, I really don’t want to continue this whole conversation.

  • this is Jen

    “What happens when we see the man we love flirting with other women?
    Responding to them, maybe even encouraging them? How do we feel? Lucky that he
    has options, that he could leave and get another woman with ease? God no. We
    feel ashamed. Why is the man who claims to love us seeking affirmation and
    sexual validation from other women?”

    And for some of the gentlemen here, it’s hearing the women in your lives
    commenting / vocalizing in front of you on the looks / sex appeal of another
    man—a celebrity or actor, perhaps.

    To me, each concern is equally valid, and would be diminishing if the other were
    to hear “you’re just being sensitive” or “I don’t get that” in response to
    airing concerns.

    It’s important that we understand and respect our partner’s limits on these
    issues.
    —————————————————————————

    doesn’t that go without saying?? I suppose the rub, here, is determining those limits before you hurt your S/O

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan/all – “Now I’m really worried for Ted. He’s put his heart and soul into this relationship and that’s a very, very bad thing for a woman to say, or feel. Perhaps she was just mouthing off and didn’t mean it, but I can understand why men feel it’s very offensive, and I do not agree with women condoning it.”

    hang on a sec… Let me get some things straight, and then I’ll talk about what I did.

    First of all, I was NOT in the room when the comment was made. It was my SO and a female friend watching TV. I happened to be coming down the steps from the second floor, when I heard her friend say something, and then my SO’s reply. So, this was not something said in front of me to piss me off or upset me. Doesn’t change that she said it, but I don’t want you all thinking she intended to disrespect me like that.

    Now… After her friend left and we settled down for the night, I told her I heard her comment. Her first reaction was shock that I was upset. She said “it’s just an expression!!!” So I asked her how she would feel if I said that I wanted to have sex with a woman so much that the word “rape” was used. Her first reply was “I don’t want to have sex with Jonathan Davis! His music just really gets me going”. (I’ve always been a fan of Korn myself, but I digress…) I replied that the term rape implies sex, and forceful at that. I then said “how would you feel if I told you I wanted to rape Megan Fox?” She replied that it would upset her. I then asked what if I simply said she was really hot and would probably be good in the sack? She replied that it wouldn’t be a big deal because I would never get the chance anyway. I countered: OK, what if I said the same thing about the women three houses down. Her response was that it would bother her. Of course I asked why, and she said because that could happen. So I responded “to be clear, it doesn’t bother you that I might want to have sex with a woman I have no chance with, but it does upset you if there IS a chance?” She kinda thought for a second and replied “well no. I wouldn’t like either. But I really didn’t intend to have sex with anyone. We were just talking and (friends name) said how hot JD ass was and I was just agreeing.” I explained that it would have been just fine to say that his music gets you hot, or that you could see how women might find him attractive, to which she replied that she actually thinks he is ugly as hell, thank goodness LOL. So I asked “why say something like that if it isn’t what you meant?” And she replied “because that is how (friend’s name) talks.” (this is her friend that says how much she wants to bang the dude from 30 Seconds in front of her husband…) It was at that time I pointed out exactly how mean and cruel her friend is to her husband by repeating some of the things she said in front of him. She honestly didn’t see it until I pointed it out, and by the end of the conversation she felt bad about the issue, and worse about her friends husband. I truly don’t think she realized men get upset by those kinds of comments. Someone else here mentioned how many women seem to believe men should just suck this kind of shit up, or that it doesn’t bother them because they are “men”.

    Also, this thing went down about six months after we were together, give or take. That was well over 1.5 years ago, and not only has there been no repeat of it, but my SO doesn’t talk to or hang out with this friend nearly as much anymore. She told me that when she talked to her about what I said regarding her husband, her friend got really pissed off and refused to talk about it. I think at that point, my SO realized what I told her was true, and that indeed her friends husband IS upset by the comments and simply won’t admit it.

    So, as much as I appreciate all of your concern, this has been done and over with for awhile now. She felt genuinely bad about hurting my feelings, and that instead of saying exactly what she meant, taking the lazy way and simply replying with what present company expected to hear. In other words, she took a step away from the herd, even though that particular herd was only two. I will admit that I was ready to call it quits at that point, but we weren’t together long and I wanted to know exactly what the intent behind the comment was before I decided. We were still in the “defining boundaries” phase and I just chalked this up to that. I also made it perfectly clear that I am not only concerned with her actions, but with her intentions as well. And lastly, that I consider those types of comments disrespectful to me and our relationship, and that to me such behavior is a sign that she doesn’t value it enough to continue being with her.

    This was also not too long after finding MMSL and the red pill, so I guess this was my first test of being assertive in my relationship. Since then we have continued to define those boundaries, as in the discussion about TMI from previous relationships and the like. Again, she honestly didn’t understand how or why it would bother me, but once she understood that it did, she stopped. I can’t say for sure what she thinks, but at least she has enough consideration for me to adjust what she says, which I see as a good sign.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      It sounds like you handled the situation really, really well. Props. I’m glad it blew over, and that time has proven her trustworthy.

  • Emily

    FWIW, in those girly “hot guy” conversations there’s a lot of “Brad Pitt is hotter than Johnny Depp” or whatever else, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard anybody say “X guy is hotter than my boyfriend”.

    And Ted, it sounds like you handled the situation properly.

    I don’t really get all the “If my girl ever said this, I’d walk right out the door and she’d never see me again!” In any relationship, both parties are probably going to say something thoughtless or stupid that they don’t really mean at some point. People are …human.

    She stopped making those comments once she realized that they were hurtful, and that’s what matters IMO.

  • OffTheCuff

    Bb: “@OTC, Elisha Cuthbert seemed incandescent to me in her youth, but I think some of that has faded as she’s gotten older. What do you think?”

    I dunno, as I’m not current on TV. I think the most recent thing I’ve seen her in was “Girl Next Door”.

    As for Scarlett Johansen, I remember watch Vicky Cristina Barcelona and we both thought she was hot, but neither of us gushed over it.

    I don’t see why anyone should get freaked out about models being objectively better looking. They are, it’s their job. It doesn’t mean your spouse prefers them over you. Mrs. C might say “Wow, X is hot” in sort of a admiring way if the topic is comes up, but she also says “the thought of another man touching me is revolting” so I never give it a second thought.

    She doesn’t “gush” over any particular celeb unprompted, neither do I. There’s a big difference between saying “Hey, guess what X did today! There’s a new photo set over at blah blah I gotta see” ove rand over versus flipping through the channels and say “Wow, she’s hot”.

    So, basically, what M3 said at 516.

    Sue: “Of course your gf doesn’t find any man more attractive than you. You are the man she’s in love with. You’re in the limerence phase – mild obsession – which is the intensive pair-forming stage of love. It’s fantastic, and it won’t last forever, which you will ultimately be thankful for.”

    Very wise advice here… I always thought this was obvious since I was a kid (lust fades, duh) but I’m glad you are stating it. These relationship n00bs Hope and JM are cute. Come back in 15 years and see how things change over time. AND GET OFF MY LAWN!!

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    All that being said, I clearly believe that this friend IS running dark female game on her husband. I get the impression that she likes to be in control, and saying those types of things beats him down ever so slightly to her advantage. They have a really odd relationship that at some point also included swinging and other activities, so I can’t even imagine what the relationship dynamics are. All I can say is: I’m not interested in any of it, and I made that perfectly clear.

    And, for the record, if my SO had made that comment in front of me, I would have been out the door in a flash. The only reason I chose to discuss it instead was because it was said in private, and it was the first comment like it I’d heard from her. They were also all buzzed up on wine, not that being drunk is an excuse to act badly. I also think the fact that they don’t get together much anymore is a good sign. My SO has since said several times how she doesn’t like how her friend treats her husband, and I feel like it means she actually figured it out. I honestly believe she simply didn’t understand how hurtful she was being to him.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Clearly this is a topic that nobody’s ever going to agree upon. Some guys are fine with their women finding other men hotter and some women are fine with their men flirting with other women.

  • M3

    OTC 607

    So, basically, what M3 said at 516.

    518 actually heh. but thanks for noticing. was almost starting to think i was just pissing in the wind and my commentary gets lost in the ether.

    Really, it boils down to common courtesy. Why would you do anything to lower the value or self worth of your partner? If you wouldn’t want to hear him tell you how physically perfect he finds Alessandra Ambrosio (and reduces you to purging and dieting to try and attain her physique lest you become ‘less’ in his eyes), why pray tell is the reverse acceptable to tell him how dreamy (all encompassing – looks, attitude, fuckability) your dear celeb crush is?

    Or is it because he’s a dude, has no feelings, is a robot and should just suck it up and take it like a man. Remember showing feelings and emotion is so beta tingle killer.

    And i’m surprised how much has been leveled towards JM. He’s right, he’s articulated everything i’ve described above. If your SO makes you feel sexually inferior.. that’s some serious f’n damage. It was never about not knowing there are hotter men out there than us. It’s being mentally made aware of it in the worst possible way. How is this a really hard concept to understand? Are the hamsters running on crystal meth now?

  • Escoffier

    There is no such thing as “objectively more beautiful” if by that you mean “So long as one person disagrees, then it can’t be objective.” But there certainly is such a thing as objectively more beautiful if we understand the concept to mean, what the results be if you ran focus groups with 100 guys and asked the rank various women? The results would come out extremely consistent, if not identical across the board.

    Anyway, the point is, it’s really a fantasy to suppose that a person will find their SO and then never see, for the rest of their lives, another person that they find physically more attractive. If you think you are such a person, great. If you think that should be the standard for ALL people, then you are holding them to an impossible standard.

    I can acknowledge the brute fact that there are plenty of women out there–models, movie stars, and just general hotties–who are prettier than my wife. That doesn’t mean I want to leave her or that I want them more. There are guys out there more handsome than me, and also richer, more alpha, higher status and so on. And she’s still here.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “Or is it because he’s a dude, has no feelings, is a robot and should just suck it up and take it like a man. Remember showing feelings and emotion is so beta tingle killer.”

    Yeah I believe this is common. It doesn’t help that indeed there are men out there that simply don’t give a shit. Her ex was one of those, but he was also a cheater and a male pig, so in her defense she was used to a totally different kind of guy. She still has to call time out on occasion when we “passionately debate” things because she is so used to screaming matches with her ex that she needs time to cool down. We are both still learning how to interact with each other after spending over a decade with another spouse, and it isn’t always easy. This particular issue wasn’t even a communication problem as much as an attitude adjustment. Her ex never cared who she “swooned” for because he only valued her as a maid and a piece of ass, and from what she can gather probably had a few others on the side most of their marriage. I simply explained to her that if the only thing I wanted was ass, that it would be MUCH easier to either look for hookups, or pay a professional, and that what *I* wanted was her full devotion and commitment to us, or nothing. She made her choice, and here we are.

    In a way, it may have been a good thing it went down like that. Without that incident, we would have never discussed it. I’m not thrilled about it or anything, but in the grand scheme of bad shit that can happen in a relationship, the truth is this is pretty mild. It was a simple lesson in hypergamy that didn’t do any real damage, and a small price to pay for better understanding between us.

    Or maybe I’m a chump. :P I guess I’ll find out eventually. LOL

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anyway, the point is, it’s really a fantasy to suppose that a person will find their SO and then never see, for the rest of their lives, another person that they find physically more attractive.

    Like I said, I’m done with the conversation. I’m clearly living in fantasy land. I’ll continue living here unless and until my gf evicts me. If that happens, I’ll try to forget this whole conversation so that I don’t lose faith in love.

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  • Escoffier

    Lol.

    JM, just because a person can consider some other person more physically attractive than their own mate does not mean they are not in love or have to give up on love. It just means that, hey, she’s way hot. That’s all.

    Susan,

    I grew up on beach. Every weekend from late spring through early fall, my parents and lots of their friends would decamp down there, spread out a huge blanket, eat sandwiches, drink beer, play Scrabble, read books and listen to the baseball game on the radio while all the kids surfed, built sandcastles or whatever. The husbands were not particularly shy in making wisecracks about hot babes in bikinis and the wives took it in stride and made cutting jokes back. It wasn’t exactly the Algonquin Roundtable but everyone was very sharp-witted about it. I don’t think feelings were genuinely hurt.

    My mother had a huge crush on Jim Palmer (baseball pitcher and underwear model) and once someone gave her for her birthday a poster of one of Palmer’s Jockey ads. My dad did not seem offended. I don’t think she ever actually put it on a wall, though, certainly not in our house.

    I am more sensetive to this stuff than they were but not quite as sensetive as JM, so I guess everyone responds a little differently.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      I grew up on beach. Every weekend from late spring through early fall, my parents and lots of their friends would decamp down there, spread out a huge blanket, eat sandwiches, drink beer, play Scrabble, read books and listen to the baseball game on the radio while all the kids surfed, built sandcastles or whatever.

      Wow, that sounds like heaven. What wonderful memories you must have. I remember that Jim Palmer poster.

      None of this is new. Married women used to faint when watching Rudolph Valentino.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    JM, just because a person can consider some other person more physically attractive than their own mate does not mean they are not in love or have to give up on love. It just means that, hey, she’s way hot. That’s all.

    And just because a man flirts with another woman in front of his gf or wife, it doesn’t mean they are not in love.

    And just because a woman has fucked 40 guys it doesn’t mean that she’s incapable of having a loving, committed relationship.

    And just because a guy spends his days looking at porn, it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t love his wife.

    All these things can be true. It doesn’t mean that people have to be okay with it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    For that matter, Escoffier, some people have open relationships. They think it’s possible for someone to love one person while burying his dick inside another person. Great for them. Not for me.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    OffTheCuff, MRI scans shows that a small percentage of couples still have the same intense romantic activation as newly in love couples after an average of 21 years of marriage. I want to be in that outlier group. :)

    http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20110114/still-madly-in-love-brain-scans-can-explain

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan – she is like most people in that she never really thought too much about the WHY of what she does. But, she has the ability and intelligence for it, and seems to be good with coming to terms with some of her own “stuff”.

    She still says I think too much, but I also think she understands my need to know the WHY.

    I have very little respect for her friend, and I’ve told my SO that many times. It’s unfortunate, because despite her behavior towards her husband, she is a pretty decent person. For whatever reasons, they both just seem to be involved with each other based on a relationship of negative feelings. I’ve been told that at one point there was some swinging and “other” activities in their marriage, so the relationship is so foreign to me that I can’t figure out why they are together. That being said, I spent years unhappy because I didn’t see any option, so perhaps they just feel like they deserve each other.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    I am sorry if I offended you. I can only say that I’ve never said anything in my husband’s absence that I haven’t also said in his presence, and he and I are cool. As Hope has pointed out, we all have our differences in relationships.

    You didn’t offend me personally, but you did bring out the side of me that wants to defend chumps. Hope’s right, we do all have our differences in relationships, and if you and your husband are cool, then that’s what matters. Though I’d add that that could also be said of guys who successfully use flirtation with other women as a means of sustaining their gf’s attraction. I’m not personally condoning it, but I don’t see a difference, really.

  • Sassy6519

    I think this all boils down to finding a person who is compatible with you, when it comes to crossing each other’s personal thresholds.

    If a guy talks about how another woman is attractive, it doesn’t bother me.

    If he makes friendly conversation with other women, it doesn’t bother me.

    If he sleeps with another person, I would have a problem with that.

    Obviously, I need to find a guy who isn’t upset by me occasionally mentioning the attractiveness of another male.

    If he can’t handle that, he probably also won’t be able to handle my twisted sense of humor or my proclivity to drop F-bombs in conversation.

    If a guy got upset about me mentioning another guy, I would respect that and not say anything like it again in his presence. At that point, it seems like the damage would already be done though. If he knew that is how I thought, would his mind ever truly be at ease about the subject?

    I think finding a man who isn’t bothered by it will be the key for me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    If a guy got upset about me mentioning another guy, I would respect that and not say anything like it again in his presence. At that point, it seems like the damage would already be done though. If he knew that is how I thought, would his mind ever truly be at ease about the subject?

    This was my point. It’s not simply the saying of it that’s a big deal. I wouldn’t want someone to hide their true self for my sake. Once the cat’s out of the bag–it’s out of the bag.

    Of course, the cat comes out of the bag quite easily in most cases, it seems. As others have pointed out, this whole thing is a way that women bond, so it’s seen as acceptable. Though if men bonded by hitting on the hottest women just for fun and it didn’t really mean anything, I’m not sure it would go over as well.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Though if men bonded by hitting on the hottest women just for fun and it didn’t really mean anything, I’m not sure it would go over as well.

      Gah, stop upping the ante! No one is hitting on anyone, or looking to open up their relationship. I don’t think you understand how women dish about this stuff – how normal it is. I mean hours, and hours, debating who’s the cutest Beatle. My Mom was a Paul girl, as was I. My dad would laugh and shake his head. I’m sure he thought Brigitte Bardot was a real sex kitten. None of these people would be famous if most people of both sexes didn’t think they were appealing. And like OTC said – we often discuss these types as a couple. We both agree that Christina Hendricks is sex on wheels, and we both see the appeal of Jon Hamm as Don Draper. We also tend to find the same people repellent, and that’s also fun to discuss during commercials.

  • Sassy6519

    Of course, the cat comes out of the bag quite easily in most cases, it seems. As others have pointed out, this whole thing is a way that women bond, so it’s seen as acceptable. Though if men bonded by hitting on the hottest women just for fun and it didn’t really mean anything, I’m not sure it would go over as well.

    I have a problem with this analogy. Wouldn’t the equivalent of men flirting with other women be women flirting with other men? I don’t recall any women proclaiming that they would go out of their way to find their celebrity crushes in order to hit on them in front of their mates. That’s just ridiculous.

    The guys seem to think that a woman mentioning the attractiveness of another man is an action with malicious intent. This seems to be the issue. When women talk about the attractiveness of other men, we don’t do it with the intention of degrading our mates. It’s just girly chit chat. If men talked about the attractiveness of other women together, which they do, it seems to be on equal footing.

    I don’t agree with people of either sex to flirt with other people in front of their mates, unless that’s what they’re into. I just don’t see how people can compare talking about the looks of someone to actively engaging someone in flirty conversation.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    It’s easy. Men approach; women select. I’m not saying that I think it’s okay for a man to talk about how sexy other women are (I don’t think it’s okay and I’ve never done it myself), but in general, it doesn’t really pose as much of a threat. The chances of a hot woman propositioning a man for sex without his first showing some active interest are not good. (In my experience anyway. Get back to me after I hit the million mark in the bank and maybe it’ll be different.)

    But, unless a woman is totally busted, she is going to get approached, hit on, propositioned, etc… So the very fact that she’s expressing an attraction towards other men is a threat in an of itself. And I’d say about as much of a threat as a guy who engages in what he considers “harmless” flirting.

  • Escoffier

    “And just because a man flirts with another woman in front of his gf or wife, it doesn’t mean they are not in love.

    And just because a woman has fucked 40 guys it doesn’t mean that she’s incapable of having a loving, committed relationship.

    And just because a guy spends his days looking at porn, it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t love his wife.

    All these things can be true. It doesn’t mean that people have to be okay with it.”

    This is a pretty silly reductio. Simply seeing a more attractive person can’t be helped (unless one gouges one’s eyes out). Everything else you identify is a behavior that CAN be helped, that is within our control.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Simply seeing a more attractive person can’t be helped (unless one gouges one’s eyes out).

    I agree. This doesn’t contradict what I’ve said.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    I don’t think you understand how women dish about this stuff – how normal it is. I mean hours, and hours, debating who’s the cutest Beatle.

    I get it. I just find it repugnant.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Your dad didn’t care, but he was flirting around with the neighbor women, too, so… okay.

    I’m not upping the ante–I’m making a comparison. If men pursue and women decide, then deciding to to talk about other men is really analogous to a man pursuing a little bit of fun flirtation.

  • Sassy6519

    But, unless a woman is totally busted, she is going to get approached, hit on, propositioned, etc… So the very fact that she’s expressing an attraction towards other men is a threat in an of itself. And I’d say about as much of a threat as a guy who engages in what he considers “harmless” flirting.

    Ah, so we have finally reached the crux of the issue. Some men hate women talking about the attractiveness of other men because the chances of those women coming in contact with attractive men is fairly high.

    For the guys in relationships here, I have a question for you. Do you think that your mate would leave you for a hotter man, if the opportunity presented itself?

    I think the root of this issue is about trust and self confidence. Do men think that their women will stay with them, even if a better option comes along? Do you think that you are worth keeping?

    If you don’t have faith in your ability to keep your mate invested in the relationship, of course the idea of an attractive man would bother you. It’s the ultimate threat.

  • M3

    @ Sassy / Susan / All Females

    Thought experiment.

    Go to the nearest mirror. Take a good long look at yourself. I’ll wait..

    ..
    ..

    ok. Now imagine you are with your SO, or potential SO.

    You’re sitting on the couch. You’re watching (insert favorite idiot box program here)

    All of a sudden, a ‘bell curve’ attractive celebrity female comes across the screen. You know she is attractive. She is celebrated in media, on TV. You know a majority of men find her desirable and she is in demand, especially when single.

    As you are watching, your SO shifts noticeable because he gets a boner, while muttering ‘mmmm mmmm mmm, that lady is such a damn fine female specimen.’ and smacks his lips.

    AND

    This woman is the opposite of your features.

    You: She :
    Blonde hair Black hair
    5’2″ 5’10″
    Small B DD
    Fair Skinned Dark Skinned
    Average Body Toned/fit

    Mix and match, but assume the person being ogled is not representative of you.

    Remember, men don’t have the luxury of being able to see you pop a boner openly and blatantly, we have to go by reactions.

    Please do describe in detail what kind of beating you would level on your SO in such a circumstance. ;)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    For the guys in relationships here, I have a question for you. Do you think that your mate would leave you for a hotter man, if the opportunity presented itself?

    I don’t think it’s as simple as that. I think most women wouldn’t throw away a good relationship for a one-off with some hot guy.

    But I would feel like a total chump if my girl found another man hotter. And it wouldn’t matter if it was a celebrity. So I’d just walk out of the relationship.

  • Sassy6519

    @ M3

    Two things.

    1. There would be no beat down whatsoever. I’ve had a guy mention the attractiveness of a female celebrity a few times, and it doesn’t bother me.

    2. I have never heard of a woman doing anything this extreme in front of her mate:

    As you are watching, your SO shifts noticeable because he gets a boner, while muttering ‘mmmm mmmm mmm, that lady is such a damn fine female specimen.’ and smacks his lips.

    Personally, the most I’ve ever done was say, “He’s so hot”. That’s it. Uttering those three words was enough to start a shitstorm. If I had started moaning, licking my lips, and shoved my hand down my pants at the sight of a hot celebrity male in front of a guy, I’d expect a thorough beat down from him.

    Why do the guys here keep upping the ante in the conversation? How does saying a male celebrity is hot compare to a woman practically having a conniption over one?

    We are talking about apples and oranges here, as many people have stated already.

  • Escoffier

    “For the guys in relationships here, I have a question for you. Do you think that your mate would leave you for a hotter man, if the opportunity presented itself?”

    No.

  • M3

    Sassy

    If you don’t have faith in your ability to keep your mate invested in the relationship, of course the idea of an attractive man would bother you. It’s the ultimate threat.

    Its not about faith in ability to keep mate invested. It boils down to sheer lack of respect in vocalizing it, and sheer disgust in the obvious one sided manner in which it appears to be socially acceptable for woman to visually and vocally devour men in public without castigation, yet men dance on eggshells lest their wandering eye even catch a glimpse, only to be felled upside the head by a weighted purse and screeched at for having the gall to check out and compare.

    I will say, it cuts both ways. At the office i work at, all my colleagues are your typical male. ( i see myself as outlier )
    Currently right now i’m single, so i join in on the passing of email links and Chive galleries of hot women in yoga pants saying ‘oh man shes hot, damn, jebus h christus’.. etc…

    BUT

    while i was married, and in love, i actually felt perturbed by these guys sending me that shit, and would always tell them ‘yeah, they look good, but i love my wife’. and then they’d rib me to shit for being such a love puppy. i didn’t care.

    Problem was, i didn’t receive this courtesy in return, hence my visceral hatred and disdain of Vampire Diaries. I have no hate nor quarrel with Ian Sommerhalder.. i happen to think he’s a rather good looking man. If i were gay, i might do him. He is not my issue. It was my exwifes blatant drooling and high schoolish antics that drove me off that cliff. She made it abundantly clear that ‘Damon’ was sexually stimulating and as damn near perfect as i’d like to think i am, Damon i am not. So who the fuck was my exwife sleeping with when we made love?

    Yeah, it digs that deep. Am i making any sense or is this going to be another one of those threads that makes me take a break from these forums and see the deep wisdom of Dalrock’s words?

  • Herb

    @Sassy:

    For the guys in relationships here, I have a question for you. Do you think that your mate would leave you for a hotter man, if the opportunity presented itself?

    I had a wife abandon me simply when she realized after she lost weigh that more attractive and exciting men than me were giving her attention.

    Note, not a specific man just the chance to get the attention of attractive men which she hadn’t before we met due to her weight.

    Once you realize you were just a fat chick’s consolation prize and once she wasn’t a fat chick any more you were disposable and you got to play for the privilege of being disposable (because Connecticut at the time still had a presumption of alimony) you attitude becomes “people will do that thing” and your ability to trust is burnt.

    So yes, at least some men in relationships believe it can happen. I am in one…with a woman who is part of a poly group…in no small part because I figure any woman is going to trade up if she can regardless of how much she promises not to so might as well have it out in the open.

    Although even this situation leads to some rather depressing times I’ll admit. Openly being “second” is better than having it hit you out of the blue but it still can suck at times.

  • Herb

    @M3:

    while i was married, and in love, i actually felt perturbed by these guys sending me that shit, and would always tell them ‘yeah, they look good, but i love my wife’. and then they’d rib me to shit for being such a love puppy. i didn’t care.

    I’ve had married co-workers who were the most obnoxious about locker room talk and at the time I was very uncomfortable wondering “if you think about women like that what about your wife”.

    As I’ve seen the truth about most women I figure it’s just gander sauce.

    I’m not entirely happy about that change in my view but it’s better to live in reality than not.

  • M3

    Sassy

    Why do the guys here keep upping the ante in the conversation? How does saying a male celebrity is hot compare to a woman practically having a conniption over one?

    You make it sound like im making shit up. I am recounting my real life experience with my ex.

    I’m not saying she started masturbating when VD came on the tube, but i certainly lost any desire to get frisky. It’s non-verbal, but you still know you’re wearing the runner-up ribbon.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Married women used to faint when watching Rudolph Valentino.

    I remember reading about this and thinking how humiliating it must have been to be the husband of one of those women.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    This entire conversation is just depressing the living shit out of me and reminding me why I went through what I went through this summer.

  • Herb

    Married women used to faint when watching Rudolph Valentino.

    I remember reading about this and thinking how humiliating it must have been to be the husband of one of those women.

    When it was brought up today I wondering how many of the fainters were shrews who dumped on their man for noticing an attractive woman?

    Because that seems to be the crux of it, the double standard.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Sassy – “Ah, so we have finally reached the crux of the issue. Some men hate women talking about the attractiveness of other men because the chances of those women coming in contact with attractive men is fairly high.

    For the guys in relationships here, I have a question for you. Do you think that your mate would leave you for a hotter man, if the opportunity presented itself?”

    I’ll agree with the statement above to an extent.

    As to your question: I don’t know. I would say that of the men she is likely to encounter on a daily basis? No. She works with doctors and physician’s assistants. Many are single and still in their late 20′s early 30′s, so plenty of opportunity there if she wanted it. But that being said, if by some totally freak twist of fate she should find herself standing in front of Jonathan Davis (pretend it’s your hunky dude from 30 Seconds) after her comment, yeah I’d be worried. That isn’t a pleasant feeling at all. I guess I used to believe that my mate would never leave me for a hotter/smarter/richer guy. After finding the ‘sphere, I’m not so sure. I truly wonder if every woman doesn’t have her threshold of tolerance when it comes to hypergamy. Which is to say, the cynical side of me believes every single woman would cheat given the correct set of circumstances. Those circumstances vary greatly, and it seems that the best a guy can do is find a woman who’s ‘circumstance’ is so ridiculous that it would never happen.

    I believe this is how Rollo views women of the world. It is a very cold and cynical viewpoint, but my tendency to see “people” negatively gives me the ability to understand it. I don’t like the way it feels, but perhaps he is right. Better to know the devil’s ways so you can counter them than to simply allow him free reign.

    So I guess I’m never going to get to see Korn live, at least not if I bring my SO to the show. :P

  • Jesus Mahoney

    When it was brought up today I wondering how many of the fainters were shrews who dumped on their man for noticing an attractive woman?

    Because that seems to be the crux of it, the double standard.

    Idk. Seems to me that just staying married to the fainters would have required them to cash in all of their self-respect, so what more could getting dumped on hurt?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted,

    I’d say the last thing you want to do is to let her near a Korn concert. Then again, take her and see what she does. At least you’ll know what you’re dealing with then.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    M3, I was rather upset by the porn girls that my husband was into, basically all teenage-looking blond white girls, which I can never be. Even though my husband didn’t rub it in my face, it was definitely something that hurt. I still kind of feel inadequate in that sense.

    Again, I don’t drool at guys on TV, I don’t ever mention the attractiveness of other men, and I walk around obliviously blind (near-sighted) to other men and whether or not they check me out. My husband does mention the attractiveness of other women and checks them out, and that is a little hurtful. But he doesn’t try to intentionally hurt me. He doesn’t make it obvious.

    I’m not the thought police, and I won’t ever be the most physically attractive woman. That, and my looks will continue to deterioriate. It does suck that my husband finds teenage blond girls attractive, but he’s not going to do anything about it. It also doesn’t mean he would stop loving me.

    I will say though that I am glad he stopped pursuing the teacher/professor track, and he is working with mostly STEM guys and older women. I don’t like being compared to college-age girls physically, and now that he’s no longer in that environment I feel less on edge.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    M3 – “while i was married, and in love, i actually felt perturbed by these guys sending me that shit, and would always tell them ‘yeah, they look good, but i love my wife’. and then they’d rib me to shit for being such a love puppy. i didn’t care.”

    Preach on brother! That is exactly how I roll, and I took shit for it for years. In fact, I was called a pussy and a prude more times than I care to admit. I don’t know many prudes that request high heels in bed, but I didn’t give a shit what the guys I worked with thought. In fact, if I had been the vindictive type, I could have had any number of them fired for that shit. They are lucky I truly didn’t care, or I’d have made it my mission to get them canned.

  • M3

    @ Hope

    Well at least there’s some common ground. I didn’t like get compared to a fictional vampire.

    At least Damon didn’t sparkle… and that’s the only good thing i can say about that.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    JM – “I’d say the last thing you want to do is to let her near a Korn concert. Then again, take her and see what she does. At least you’ll know what you’re dealing with then.”

    In all honestly I was totally joking. I’ll take her to a Korn show in a second. I’d even go so far as to arrange a meeting with the band if it was in my power. Because I’m pretty sure she was telling the truth, and if she wasn’t then I’d rather she jump his ass right then and there so I can walk away. I’m not afraid of her leaving for anyone in particular, but if she would, then she isn’t the woman I think she is anyway.

  • Passer_by

    @ted
    “Also, this thing went down about six months after we were together, give or take. That was well over 1.5 years ago, and not only has there been no repeat of it”

    Oh. . . . Well, then, uh . . . never mind.

    @jesus

    Jeez, Jesus, you’re in the limerance period of a new relationship! Get the heck off of HUS and go act like rabbits, dammit.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “At least Damon didn’t sparkle… and that’s the only good thing i can say about that.”

    Is it odd that when I see “Edward” sparkling it reminds me of strippers covered in glitter? Seriously, anytime I’ve seen a poster of it in the stores I can’t help but chuckle.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Passer by,

    She’s tending to 5 yr olds at the moment. Or actually, to the parents of 5 yr olds. But yea, I get your point. Tbh, this entire conversation isn’t good for me. It’s really depressing the living crap out of me.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Passer_by, well, limerence is also characterized by high anxiety. :P

    I sometimes still work myself into a tizzy thinking about the possibility that my husband might not love me as much. I’m just glad he is also a sensitive NF type and doesn’t mind it when I get all emotional and neurotic.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    I wasn’t really depressed or anxious before this debate. Now, after listening to the views of most of the women here, I just feel like… idk, the odds of my gf actually meeting my standards are so slim, that we’re bound to break up soon enough.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I wasn’t really depressed or anxious before this debate. Now, after listening to the views of most of the women here, I just feel like… idk, the odds of my gf actually meeting my standards are so slim, that we’re bound to break up soon enough.

      OH STOP IT. I can guarantee that even if she thinks Orlando Bloom is cute, it has nothing to do with being crazy about you, wanting no one but you, etc.

      Think about it. From the time we’re 2 we begin to gain exposure to the idea of Prince Charming, or Mr. Right. I remember as a little girl liking certain Disney animated princes better than others. Just because we are fortunate enough to find our soulmate, and he is everything we could want sexually, doesn’t mean that now the Prince in Cinderella is a troll. These concepts coexist in harmony.

      JM, I really think you’re taking this too seriously. IDK, maybe it’s part of the red pill. I will say that if you are repulsed by the idea of pre-teens gushing over Justin Bieber, you’re in for a lot of disappointment. I have never met a single female in my entire life, including my Great Aunt Marg Sister Mary Bernadette, who didn’t engage in this kind of silliness. To break up over something so central to the female experience seems self-defeating, to say the least.

  • Sassy6519

    I’ll check back in with everyone later. I’m on my way to Michigan to visit a friend. “Pure Michigan”, here I come.

  • M3

    I wasn’t really depressed or anxious before this debate. Now, after listening to the views of most of the women here, I just feel like… idk, the odds of my gf actually meeting my standards are so slim, that we’re bound to break up soon enough.

    If you will allow me to indulge, i’m going to channel a little Jesus/Yohami here.

    Dude, forget what her views are, you keep your frame. Don’t change, keep going even keel if everything has been good. Don’t look for it, because you’ll always be on edge.

    IF it comes up..

    Instant correction by returning the favor. Firm believer in experience will define it for her not words. If she continues.. let the unicorn go. If she has the great gift of introspection, then it should never happen again.

    You can always offer a few strikes before the out, depending on how egregious the slight.

    But don’t dwell on what you MIGHT have to do, enjoy what you currently have. Maybe she’s already had her introspection moment and is indeed the unicorn we all hope they can be!

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Jesus Mahoney, it’s kind of normal, I think. It’s why I went on a break from the general redpillsphere, including HUS, when I first met my husband until when we got engaged. I was lucky because he was managing a non-profit at the time and had access to a computer, so we just chatted all the time.

    My husband and I had hours upon hours of honest communication and getting to know all about each other before we moved in together, and we still had a few incidents. He did fall off the pedestal a bit, and as did I. But we bonded strongly to each other, and those incidents proved to us we could weather storms.

    It is better to fall in love with the real person than the idealized version in your head. True love embraces flaws, too. There is no perfect human being. We can only strive toward bettering ourselves, and because my husband and I do that, and we’re aware enough and compatible enough, our love has not diminished after seeing “reality.”

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    PB – its all good. I appreciate the concern and the input.

    More than anything else, those early episodes to me prove both Tom/Jess’s point and mine. Surely a person CAN come from a casual sex background and change legitimately into someone that is more LTR oriented. It also proves my point that things are much easier if both people come from the same general background and have similar values. In my SO’s case, I believe her values have changed as her view of herself has changed. I remember how shitty I felt about myself when my ex-wife didn’t show that she valued me. Her ex made her feel really awful, and although on a logical level she recognized that it was him that had the problem, emotionally 10 years of that marriage took its toll on her self esteem. So we both got beat up a lot, and we both handled it differently. My focus is on how we are changing together, and how well it meshes. So far, so good. I am loosening up a bit, and she is starting to see that slowing down and taking time to think before acting isn’t so bad.

    If I had the chance to start this all over again, I still would. But, I still stand by the statement I made elsewhere. If I knew then what I know now in regards to red pill knowledge, I would have never given it a thought. The truth is there are enough “red flags” in her past to suggest deeper issues, including a rough childhood and early casual adventures. And, I would still advise our boys to steer clear of women with similar pasts. I think she would advise the same, which is really what counts to me.

    But you know what? I’m a divorced man. I’m an increased risk to her as well. We are both adults that had entire lives before we met. She is taking a risk on me just the same as I am on her. I can sit here and say what a stable, faithful man I am. But the cold hard fact is I’m tainted, just as she is. And I’m not looking to start a family, I’m working on getting my children raised and on their own so I can have my life back. If I was starting out, it would be a totally different story. I’m OK with taking some extra risk at this point, because I can afford it. Not from a money standpoint, but from a personal standpoint. If this doesn’t work out long term, there will be no divorce, no child custody, and no support/alimony. I will be hurt, it will suck, but life will go on, and if I want to I’ll find someone else.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Muff,

    Thanks, I needed that. You’re right, I shouldn’t be dwelling on what might be.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    It is better to fall in love with the real person than the idealized version in your head. True love embraces flaws, too. There is no perfect human being.

    Thanks. I agree with this. I don’t think I’m expecting perfection, I think I’m just expecting love–or at least love as I understand it.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Jesus M. – “I just feel like… idk, the odds of my gf actually meeting my standards are so slim, that we’re bound to break up soon enough.”

    IMO you should nip that shit in the ass. It wasn’t so long ago that you ran me up and down about how MY expectations for people to suck in general may contribute to the fact that my interactions with most people suck. Don’t go wrecking your feelings by looking at this as inevitable.

    I believe you once told me that I was looking for a guaranty in life and no such thing existed. Pot, meet kettle. :-P

    If she hasn’t given you a single reason to doubt her, don’t. If/when she DOES give you a reason, handle it. But don’t start LOOKING for a reason to doubt her, because I can tell you the mind is capable of conjuring the worst in everyone.

    I’m not trying to bust your balls, and if it seems that way I’m sorry. But seriously, you are the resident male HUS idealist, and I hate seeing you this pessimistic. Leave that to those of us that have made it an art form. Your talent lies elsewhere. ;)

  • M3

    @ Jesus

    No prob bro.

    Now get off HUS for a day or two, go make sweet bunny love to your SO and release some of those endorphins. Good for the body, good for the soul.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    And how do you understand love, JM?

  • Herb

    @Hope:

    It is better to fall in love with the real person than the idealized version in your head. True love embraces flaws, too. There is no perfect human being. We can only strive toward bettering ourselves, and because my husband and I do that, and we’re aware enough and compatible enough, our love has not diminished after seeing “reality.”

    People are great at falling in love.

    Right now, in the US people suck at forming functioning and surviving relationships.

    Accepting someone’s faults that don’t directly damage a relationship is great falling in love advice, but accepting relationship damaging faults is horrible relationship advice.

  • Passer_by

    @m3
    “518 actually heh. but thanks for noticing. was almost starting to think i was just pissing in the wind and my commentary gets lost in the ether.”

    Just so you don’t go through the day feeling so unappreciated.

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/03/15/relationshipstrategies/the-sad-reality-of-using-anxiety-to-generate-attraction/comment-page-4/#comment-109856

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Thanks, Ted. You’re absolutely right.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sassy: For the guys in relationships here, I have a question for you. Do you think that your mate would leave you for a hotter man, if the opportunity presented itself?”

    No. We have three kids, and a shared life, so there’s that she’d give up or damage. Being the first and only man to make her orgasm has bonding advantages, and it only gets stronger/more intense over time. She’s wanted to marry me since she was 18, and has never wavered in her affection. Never turned me down for sex.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Herb, Susan has been married for quite a long time and seems to be happy. Her flaws are not relationship destroying faults.

    Besides that, JM’s girlfriend hasn’t even expressed such things. If she ever does, does that automatically mean she should be dumped?

  • Escoffier

    “I just feel like… idk, the odds of my gf actually meeting my standards are so slim, that we’re bound to break up soon enough.”

    This may sound mean; not intended that way.

    The odds of your gf actually meeting your standards do sound very slim. The reason I can say that without knowing her is that your standards, as stated, are unreasonable.

    If I understand you, you want the following. Any SR of yours should value you above all the other 3.5 million males in the world, and not merely value you higher but also think that you’re the most attractive man in the world. Anything less, to you, is not love; it is settling.

    Now, obviously I do not have insight into the souls of every living person. But I believe that such a feeling is quite rare. About the best anyone can expect to find is someone they believe is “the best for them.” This does not preclude the existence of someone who is better looking, better at this or that, richer, higher status, funnier, more alpha, whatever. But maybe he has a combination of traits that make him “just right for her.”

    Even that is probably not all that common. In reality, most of us could probably have ended up with a range of people and been quite happy and in love. But in any event, the idea that we (I, you) MUST be our SO’s perfect ideal, no one hotter, anywhere, is just a recipe for failure.

    The whole premise of assortive mating tells against it. When 7s pair off with 7s, each of them knows on some level that there are 10s out there and they didn’t get one. That needn’t make them unhappy and/or not in love. If it did, only 10s would ever pair off.

    I once had a friend tell me all mopey that is GF broke up with him. Why? well, it turns out he couldn’t help telling her about all these women he found hot. Why the hell was he doing that? He had to be “honest.” I said, dude, it’s one thing to be honest and another to be an idiot. Certainly don’t lie to her about anything important but there’s no reason to reveal to her ever stray tingle in your little head. Just don’t act on them and STFU. He said that was being untrue to himself or something.

    My point is, nearly everyone is going to get that tingle from time to time. Some people, like my parents and their friends, can handle hearing jokes about it. Others, like you, can’t. Which is fine. Like I said, I am more toward your end than theirs.

    But you want there never to be any such stirrings in the first place. That’s not realistic. If that’s your standard, you are goind to have a very hard time finding a girl who meets it. Probably the best you can do is a girl who hides it very well and never brings it up and it sounds like that’s not good enough for you.

  • M3

    @ Passer By

    Heh. Thanks. I was kidding.. whether people read the pure gold i write is irrelevant. But it’s always nice to know your opinion has merit to the overall conversation.

    I can now sleep soundly at night.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Very wise advice here… I always thought this was obvious since I was a kid (lust fades, duh) but I’m glad you are stating it. These relationship n00bs Hope and JM are cute. Come back in 15 years and see how things change over time.

    Hey I’m not that old! : And I agree with this but then I come from four generations of never divorcee people this idea that you are going to be head in clouds forever is not only unreal is exhausting. No one will ever get anything done. There is a true better stronger bond coming after the limerence period I’m not afraid of it and no one should get addicted to be in love, people break up all the time when that feeling fades and that is not good, YMMV.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    That’s a very difficult question to answer. But I’ll try.

    There’s a great little book by Erich Fromm called, “The Art of Loving.” I would definitely recommend it. It covers all types of “loving” relationships, not just romantic ones, but the general principle is the same for all varieties, and actually the gist of the entire book is right in the title. It’s about the art of loving, and not the art of love. In other words, love is all about action, about what we do. Loving acts would be things that help people, that give them what they need, that make them feel valued, that help them to become better and happier people, etc…

    So I think that’s a huge part of it. But there’s more–there’s the bond between the two lovers. And in the case of romantic love, that bond is created by attraction. The greater the attraction, the greater the resulting bond will be. And, of course, the opposite is true: the weaker the attraction, the weaker the bond will be.

    Competing attractions threaten that bond, they weaken it. They do. An attraction that is stronger than the one between two lovers is obviously going to dilute or debase the connection that the lovers feel. And so for me, romantic love requires a solid bond, one built on a strong attraction to your partner, an attraction that trumps all other attractions.

    Anyway, I know I’ve probably oversimplified things, but that’s the gist of it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    If I understand you, you want the following. Any SR of yours should value you above all the other 3.5 million males in the world, and not merely value you higher but also think that you’re the most attractive man in the world. Anything less, to you, is not love; it is settling.

    Yes, you understand me correctly.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Anacaona, that love feeling can be transmuted into spiritual love which is very strong. My husband and I are not “in lust.” It’s a mind/heart/soul/body thing.

    Jesus Mahoney, I see. So would you say that sibling rivalry jealousies are competing bonds, too? That because a mother loves one child, the other child is less loved? Or is this only about romantic love?

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “About the best anyone can expect to find is someone they believe is “the best for them.””

    This. I’m not thrilled about it either, but I think the truth is there are at least a few dozen “perfect” women for me in the world. Probably hundreds in fact. Its biology. What kind of odds would the human race have if there was only ONE person in the entire world you could produce babies with? None. Of course we’ve evolved a lot and it isn’t just about biology anymore, but as we continually point out here at HUS biology is still a very large part of how we work, and certainly a primary factor in dealings of the hind brain. I can’t remember which thread, but I recall saying that post red pill I’ve realized that the “perfect woman” for me is subjective. Right now my SO is perfect for me, but if tomorrow we split up, I could find another women to be happy with, and she would then be perfect for me. “Soul mates” and most romantic ideals of love are just not founded in practicality. By all means, if/when you find someone to love, pour in as much romance as the relationship can take, and enjoy every second of it. Since the red pill, I will always remember that all the romance in the world won’t trump biology, and all the desire in the world to believe my SO is the “perfect woman” won’t make her truly perfect.

    Know it, but don’t dwell on it. The red pill may have shattered my idealistic views on love and romance, but that doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy love and romance when it comes my way. And the knowledge that it isn’t magic means that it is within my power to make things better instead of being at the mercy of some intangible thing. To me, that is the frame I need to learn and adopt as my own. That it is within my power to have love, romance, and happiness.

  • M3

    @ Susan

    I will say that if you are repulsed by the idea of pre-teens gushing over Justin Bieber, you’re in for a lot of disappointment.

    I dare say that if Jesus is angry because his pre-teen SO is gushing over Bieber, he has bigger problems than just his emotional state..

    Statutory rape much?

    You sort of completely missed the fact that and ADULT woman should in no way be emulating the pre-teen hysterics and adulation of a celeb. It’s called self-control.

    Jesus was not complaining about the mental musings of preteen poptarts. Let’s try and keep the context without flying off the rails.

    In fact, the more language i hear about telling a guy to just ‘buck up’ and accept it, women do this, yada yada, i feel the main point of the original post “The Sad Reality of Using Anxiety to Generate Attraction” is that it’s not a sad reality after all. Buck up ladies… your dude is flirting and having a good time with another woman, doesn’t mean he’s gonna go rush home with her to sleep with her. Just get over it, you’re being a tad sensitive dontcha think?

    Is JM overreacting. Yeah, cuz his GF hasn’t given him cause to worry. By the same token.. the reaction of ‘outliers’ here on HUS gives me cause to wonder just how bad it might be amongst the ‘inliers’?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @M3

      Sigh. You misunderstood my Bieber reference. My point was that JM appears to be disappointed in an aspect of female nature. He said that girls arguing over who’s the cutest Beatle is repugnant. I pointed out that we do that – from about the age of 3 on. We all do. That’s not to say that women feel sexual desire for celebrities or fantasize about them or indeed let them interfere with relationships in any way.

      I’m exhausted by this, honestly. The point is, don’t do anything to threaten your mate as a specific way of maintaining their attraction. That is exploitative and manipulative. If JM’s gf deliberately tries to make him jealous by saying that she thinks Jake Gyllenhaal is cute, that’s no better than his openly flirting to instill dread.

      I’m anti-dread. Get it?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    OH STOP IT. I can guarantee that even if she thinks Orlando Bloom is cute, it has nothing to do with being crazy about you, wanting no one but you, etc.

    I don’t mind if she thinks Orlando Bloom is cute (even though I’d have to google him to find out who he is)–as long as she thinks I’m cuter.

    Think about it. From the time we’re 2 we begin to gain exposure to the idea of Prince Charming, or Mr. Right. I remember as a little girl liking certain Disney animated princes better than others. Just because we are fortunate enough to find our soulmate, and he is everything we could want sexually, doesn’t mean that now the Prince in Cinderella is a troll. These concepts coexist in harmony.

    No, but in my view, it should mean that I’m the Prince that trumps all the other princes.

    JM, I really think you’re taking this too seriously. IDK, maybe it’s part of the red pill.

    Could be. I’m not on any other pills.

    I will say that if you are repulsed by the idea of pre-teens gushing over Justin Bieber, you’re in for a lot of disappointment.

    To break up over something so central to the female experience seems self-defeating, to say the least.

    Well, if seeing men other than your bf or husband as Prince Charming is central to the female experience, then I don’t want a relationship.

    Of course, I’m hoping I’ve got an outlier on my hands.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JM

      Well, if seeing men other than your bf or husband as Prince Charming is central to the female experience, then I don’t want a relationship.

      OK, I’ll bow out here. That is not what I was trying to convey, and I have repeatedly failed to make myself understood. I’m out of ideas. I hope you find everything you’re looking for in your gf. She sounds pretty special.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    Only about romantic love, because the bond is built upon attraction.

  • M3

    The red pill may have shattered my idealistic views on love and romance, but that doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy love and romance when it comes my way.

    Something i had to struggle with and come to accept. Disney is dead.

    My idealism has been transformed into:

    - I can love another, but it must be metered
    - Everyone is replaceable
    - Soulmates can turn on you
    - Love does not conquer all
    - There is a pricetag for everything
    - Happily ever after is not guarenteed
    - Till death do us part is a daily lie
    - Live for myself, you can come along for the ride, a wingman, but i will never make you my everything, that’s ‘needy’

    I can still enjoy all this and be content. Part of me is glad i’ve woken up.

    And part of me is sad my idealism is dead.

  • Lokland

    @ JM, Esc.

    When did the population of Earth drop by a factor of 10^3?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    He said that girls arguing over who’s the cutest Beatle is repugnant.

    Oh, okay. I should’ve been more clear, then. A married woman or a woman in love with her bf arguing over who is the cutest Beatle is repugnant.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    This conversation is like the Rollo/Mike C discussion on the A guy vs. B guy. Men who have taken the red pill want to know they are the A guy, and that the A guy is not actually some celebrity or famous guy who can take his place at any time.

    In Susan’s case, her husband is her A guy, and that doesn’t change. Escoffier is his wife’s A guy, which also doesn’t change. For M3, maybe he started out being his ex’s A guy, but then changed to the B guy.

    It reminds me of the Highlander’s “there can only be one.” There can really be only one A guy for a woman at any given time.

    Jesus Mahoney seems to be saying that even if he is the A guy, an alternative B guy or two on the same ladder is a threat, because one of them could potentially overtake him to become the new A guy.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    JM – “Only about romantic love, because the bond is built upon attraction.”

    Straight up, if I’m pushing boundaries here let me know. I feel like we have a pretty good mutual respect for two people that only know each other from the ‘net, but I know your also stressed out and I really don’t want to make it worse.

    I forget how long you’ve been with your GF, but my memory tells me it is still measured in months. I’ve been with my SO now for about 2 years plus a few months now, and at this point all that heavy “new love” attraction is fading out just a little. This is primarily why I’ve been so obsessed with hypergamy, and figuring out if/what “game” stuff I need to put into play. It is completely normal for all that heavy attraction to fade, and as it does it should be replaced by mutual history, mutual respect, and mutual love. I still think my SO is hot shit, but the cold truth is I can see a shift in exactly why I still feel that way. She is no less sexy to me, but as time goes on I’m finding that it isn’t all about how she looks. Not that she looks any different, but that the focus of my attraction to her is changing from the physical to a mix of physical and emotional.

    ** warning: TMI to follow **

    When I think of her in a sexual sense, it isn’t just that she has a hot body. Now its about how her body feels when we touch. How she smells. I get more turned on by the thought of the last session we had than actually looking at her body. I never noticed it before, but this mechanism has been clearly in play for every single one of my LTR partners.

    I can’t speak for the ladies, but I’m guessing there is a similar dynamic for them as well. There is no way to stop time from taking away your beauty and strength, which means that someday my SO and I are in no way going to look sexy at all. But, by then, I fully believe that most of my attraction to her will be emotionally driven, so the fact that she has wrinkles and grey hair won’t matter much to me. THAT is the bonding that is most important to me when it comes to the sexual part of a relationship. Even if I was literally the hottest man alive right this second, it would only be a matter of time before someone hotter comes along.

    that initial rush of physical attraction early on in a relationship? More lust than love, regardless of the intentions behind it. The attraction you feel for your mate 5 or 10 years from now? Probably going to be a mix of love and lust. By the time you’ve both been together for decades? I’m thinking love will be the driver. And I believe that is perfectly normal and healthy.

    Not romantic though. :(

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    Not at all. I’m simply saying that I want to be the A guy. That’s all. I don’t care if there’s a B guy. As long as he be B.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    “That’s not to say that women feel sexual desire for celebrities or fantasize about them or indeed let them interfere with relationships in any way. ”

    I disagree witht the second part. I’ve seen it go bad MANY (I count 5 quickly then I run out of fingers and the other hand has a sandwhich) times.

    Anyway if her herd > me in terms of importance there is no relationship.

  • Escoffier

    Why is it that, if your girl thinks someone is more handsome than you, that necessarily makes you B and him A?

    I dated prettier girls than my wife but I didn’t marry them. By definition, she is A and they are B. Why? Because looks aren’t everything. She had more important things that they lacked.

    I have little doubt that 99% (and maybe even 100%) of the celebrities I think are beautiful I would find vapid, boring, snobbish, or just “not my type.” I wouldn’t want to be married to them. But they’re still hot.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    If she thinks other men are more attractive than I am, that would mean she’s more attracted to them. It hardly matters to me that Orlando Bloom is out of her reach on stage or in films or doing whatever the fuck the guy does. The point is that if some other guy is “hotter” than me, then it’s clear to me that the bond she’s going to feel with me is just not worth cultivating. If another man is hotter, then he’s the A guy.

    Attractive guys? Sure. Let the world be littered with B guys. As long as I’m the A man.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    I’ll bow out, too. I’m obviously doing an equally poor job of making myself understood. Maybe I’ll be back. This place is usually the perfect distraction when I’m frustrated with my writing, but it’s become far too depressing lately.

  • Herb

    @Escoffier:

    But you want there never to be any such stirrings in the first place. That’s not realistic. If that’s your standard, you are goind to have a very hard time finding a girl who meets it. Probably the best you can do is a girl who hides it very well and never brings it up and it sounds like that’s not good enough for you.

    I understand you’re addressing JM correctly but I think for a large number of men this isn’t the issue.

    It’s they believe less and less that they can meet a woman who, having chosen a man, can decide the value that choice brought over time is more valuable than a hottie who crosses her path. In such an environment openly stating “wow, isn’t he hot” to him is going to reinforce that lack of believe not only with that partner but if that relationship ends with the next one as well.

    This is doubly true if she puts more energy into admiring other men than the one she has chosen. It’s triply true if she denigrates him in other ways more than she admires him.

    Actually, just writing that brings me back to Susan’s initial scenario. Does how much a man flirts with his life mitigate the fallout from flirting with other women?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Lol apparently INF* men frustrate even ENF* women. :P

    I understand the anti-celeb thing because my husband and I are INFJ. It definitely puts INF*ers in the outlier category though.

    JM, maybe you can have your girlfriend take the Myers-Briggs, and if she turns up INF* you have a higher likelihood of her being the unicorn. :)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    I have little doubt that 99% (and maybe even 100%) of the celebrities I think are beautiful I would find vapid, boring, snobbish, or just “not my type.” I wouldn’t want to be married to them. But they’re still hot.

    Sorry, I don’t find vapid, boring, and snobbish “hot.” And doubly sorry that you do.

  • Escoffier

    Herb you’re talking about a bunch of behaviors that most of us agree would be hurtful and out of line (though a few of us could tolerate them).

    I’m talking about the knee-jerk response a person gets when he/she sees someone really attractive and the basic reality that none of us has married the most physically spectacular person in the world.

    My mom never did leave my dad for Jim Palmer or anyone else even though Palmer is better looking than my dad. From what I can tell, they are quite happy.

    I assume I am my wife’s “A guy” because she’s still here and she has given me no indications of stepping out. Yet I am not the most handsome man in the world, nor tied for it, nor even a 10 or a 9 or an 8 or whatever. I have little doubt that she finds other men in the world more handsome than me. I never made that a requirement of marriage I don’t feel any worse off for it. If she was always rubbing my nose in some celebrity crush, I would doubtless get very pissed off but she doesn’t do that.

  • Lokland

    @ Herb

    “It’s they believe less and less that they can meet a woman who, having chosen a man, can decide the value that choice brought over time is more valuable than a hottie who crosses her path. In such an environment openly stating “wow, isn’t he hot” to him is going to reinforce that lack of believe not only with that partner but if that relationship ends with the next one as well.”

    You scored big here.
    This isn’t all internal wiring.

    We live in an enviroment where female serial monogamy is not only acceptable but celebrated.

    Thi is one of those situations where genes + enviroment = fucked up phenotype.

    All men are subconsciously aware of cuckolding/cheating w/e u want it but when the society you live in actively promotes this as the best option it should b expected that men will adapt an ultra-sensitive reaction to this threat.

    JM is probably coming from a gene set with high cuckold aversion + strong societal influence = uber sensitive.

    I come from a family that told me paternity tests were mandatory before I signed the birth certificate. Enviroment increased my sensitivity to the threat.

    We have a bunch of women here doing what is really no big deal but we as men have to deal with the fact that (even if its not true) its a really big fucking threat.

    Last, the adaption is dependent upon perception not reality.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    I understand the anti-celeb thing because my husband and I are INFJ. It definitely puts INF*ers in the outlier category though.

    The whole celeb fetish seems a bit superficial to me. I can’t find a person “hot” until I get to know the person. I guess that definitely makes me an outlier.

  • Lokland

    * it appears to be a really big fuckign threat.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Yeah Jesus Mahoney, that makes you more of an outlier than even my husband, because he can get turned on by a physically attractive girl without knowing her, but he can’t fall in love with just looks.

    I’m an outlier in that I don’t tingle for anyone unless I have the mind/body/soul/heart connection first. I should theoretically be miserable in this SMP, but there are more nerdy guys than nerdy girls, so I won big.

    Anyway, I had no idea men felt this way about females talking about celebrities. I just never did it because it wasn’t my thing, and in past relationships, I never mentioned other guys or flirted with other guys.

    I’m primarily emotionally driven. I dated some guys that other people said were nerdy or ugly. Celebrities are all about looks/status/fame, none of which matter to me as much as a genuine connection.

    But I keep myself in shape because my husband is still a guy.

    One comment that did kind of hurt was when I was really big and pregnant last time in my third trimester, he admitted he was less physically attracted to me. But that’s how guys operate. I’m not gonna get too butthurt about it.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “The whole celeb fetish seems a bit superficial to me. I can’t find a person “hot” until I get to know the person. I guess that definitely makes me an outlier”

    As a human being probably. As a man pretty damn likely. I’m like you in that I don’t find a women hot enough to have sex with unless I actually know her. Looking at a hot body may cause an erection, but it still doesn’t get me wanting to jump on it. But I know beyond all doubt that I am an outlier among men in this respect, and when Susan and I were discussing the risks of sex for men vs. women, she essentially confirmed that by saying that if I am indeed as emotionally attached to sex as I explained, then I am an odd bird in her opinion. That’s fine, but it also means that I need to accept that most people don’t think like I do. And by proxy, there is a fair chance that any particular women I may be with may very well feel differently about. If that’s the case, I can ask her if she is willing to operate by my standards, or I can walk away. I would love to not have to make that kind of choice, but I really don’t think it is possible. Instead, I would try to find a woman who’s differences aren’t major issues for me.

    In my current situation, I’m passed that. I’m already invested, and so is she. The differences we find must be worked out, or we are done. I certainly can’t change how she feels inside about any particular issue, but if she is willing to adjust without resentment towards me, I can’t see that as a total loss. I’ve had to change things as well, and as long as we continue to be able to accommodate each other without negative feelings, I figure we are doing fine.

    Again, your dwelling on something that you don’t even know is true. Don’t. If you can’t get past it, ask and get it out in the open. You may not like the answer, but I believe it is always better to act out of knowledge than out of ignorance. “Knowing is half the battle!”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Lokland,

    JM is probably coming from a gene set with high cuckold aversion + strong societal influence = uber sensitive.

    Honestly, I think this is total crap. It has nothing to do with a fear of cuckolding. It has to do with who I respect and how I respect myself. If I learned anything over my summer of confusion, it was that I *am* the A guy. And this before I had any real status. Now I’ve got a novel coming out by a major publisher and enough scratch sitting in the bank to do what I like until I finish the next one. So I’m not feeling disposed to worrying about becoming a cuckold. I’ve got enough status and social dominance to keep a girl around.

    But that’s not all I want. I stopped hooking up and sleeping with people I didn’t care about for a reason: because I want to love someone and I want that person to love me. And I want to love someone totally and I want that person to love me totally too. I don’t want to be with someone who loses her head over some dumbass celebrity with the body of a model. I don’t want to be with someone who will only utter the word “hottie” once in 15 yrs, and that about the Governor of CA and not about me. I don’t want some chick that’s going to dish about how hot this guy or that guy is.

    I just don’t have the time or patience for that bullshit. I don’t think this is so much the red pill talking. Maybe it’s my upbringing. Maybe it’s getting locked out of the house in the winter and standing in pajamas watching through the window as my pretty boy brother fucked pretty girls who never bothered to say anything about the 10 yr old getting thrown out into the snow. Or maybe it was listening to my mom tell me how my brother was the good-looking one and that was why everybody loved him and that, you know, I had a lot of brains–even if I was no Bon Jovi… in the 4th grade.

    Idk, red pill or having your pants set on fire by a pretty boy brother, getting spit on, puked on, strangled, whipped, smacked, punched, kicked, drowned by your pretty boy brother… whatever the case, I don’t have respect for people who gush over pretty empty faces and attractive bodies with no clear idea of what kind of heart beats inside their chests.

    My gf’s pretty, but the prettiest thing about her is what’s inside. She thinks I’m hot, but I hope the thing she thinks best is what’s inside. I don’t want to hear people gush about pretty faces. I don’t like it. I don’t respect it. Period.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus Mahoney

      I want to say “Well why didn’t you say so?” but I’m afraid you will think I’m being flippant. If you were here I would give you a motherly hug. You’ve talked about how screwed up your childhood was – you’ve provided a few specifics here and there, but I honestly had no idea that was the dynamic, especially with your mother. It puts an entirely new perspective on everything you have said. So. What I think is most important for you is to make sure your gf knows that too, and how just the mention of pretty boys sets you off. Even if she never, ever tried to hurt you that way, it’s possible, given your strong feelings, that she could inadvertently upset you. Not by being attracted to some other man, but by joking around, or laughing at a friend’s joke, or whatever.

      We all have our hot buttons. I know exactly what my husband’s are and I will never push them. This is one of yours.

      Thank you for sharing that last comment. Context is everything.

  • Passer_by

    I think it’s pretty obvious that we need to organize an HUS get together in Mahoney’s home town, find his brother, and kick the livin’ shit out him.

  • Escoffier

    Since JM wants to hold my wife up as an example of what’s wrong with womanhood, I feel I owe her a defense since I was the one who shared that story.

    “Hottie” is a stupid teenie-bopper word and my wife is a serious person so I would not expect her to use it ever. The point of that story was more how strange it was to hear that kind of slang come out of her mouth. She is about as disconnected from youth/pop culture as one can get. I’m rather proud that she never talks like that and I would not have married someone who does.

  • Charm

    Well Im super fucking late to the party. Lol but I managed to get through about 150 of the last comments and I’ve reached this conclusion:

    Im on the same ship as JM and Ted. When Im with someone Im with them. No on else. I don’t have eyes for anyone else, nor am I faking it. Because I love that person, they would become my ideal. I’ve never looked at a celebrity and found them hot, or attractive. Nor have I ever said “I’d sooo bang [inser attractive guys name]“. Im not saying that I dont notice when someone is physically attractive, but it literally does not for me. I think “so what” and move on.

    I think this is an idealistic way to think about love, but there is nothing wrong with that. This is what I like about being demisexual. As long as someone maintains their character, treats me right, and continues to love me then I will do the same. I naturally don’t have eyes for other people, since it takes me a while to forge a relationship with someone in the first place. And my standards for a relationship are pretty high so if a guy makes it in and we’re dating then its a huge damn deal. I dont find dating to be fun at all. I only consider it with someone Im really into. Really REALLY into.

    Solution: Date a demisexual.

  • Passer_by

    @charm

    Is there some sort of online dating site for them? Or, perhaps, some physical marker that identifies them? :)

  • Lokland

    @ People who were confused like me

    demisexual – is a person who does not experience sexual attraction until they form a strong emotional connection with someone, often (but not always) in a romantic relationship.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Sorry to hear that Jesus Mahoney. I was also the ugly duckling growing up, too, and told I was short/dark-skinned/fat and compared to a taller/prettier/thinner older cousin. But I don’t feel that same kind of resentment because she was very nice to me, and I was the far more extroverted one. She’s still super shy.

    As Susan said, if you haven’t, you should probably let your girlfriend know this so that she doesn’t inadvertently press this hot button. My husband has issues with women being bossy because of his mom, so I never do it to him because I know he hates it.

    A good level of courtesy, respect and love should prevent these issues from coming up in the first place. I watch my mouth very carefully so as to not be hurtful. Love is a wonderful thing, but yeah little things can really hurt.

  • Charm

    @Passer_by

    Generally, they come off as asexual. I’ve been told that I do. Its because Im not gushing all over the guys like “one of the girls”. When men give me attention, I don’t blush. So often men think they’ve been friendzoned, because I’d need to get to know them to develop a sexual attraction to them. I think this is because demisexual (when single) exist like asexuals and do not desire sex just for the act of sex. I still masturbate like normal people. And I still have a sex drive and I still desire sex. But I can only desire sex with someone I am in love with.

    Most demisexuals don’t even realize they are demi, so it’d be hard to find them. Alot of people think they are demi when they hear the description, but truthfully, I think demisexuals make up probably less than 1% of the population. I believe there are dating websites for them. Generally they use asexual websites since traditional websites don’t cater to them. Type demisexual into the search box on a dating site and see what pops up. Im sure some of them probably put it in their profiles.

  • Charm

    Thanks Lokland!

    I probably should have defined it.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Well Charm I learned a new thing today, thanks. :P I might fall on the spectrum, because I can’t even kiss without a lot of emotional involvement, but I can definitely get crushes on guys without that, so I don’t think I quite fit the full definition.

    I don’t usually gush like “one of the girls” but I have been known to get super excited about new gadgets or video games like “one of the boys.” I’m quite excitable about a lot of stuff, just not the same stuff most girls get excited about. For example I was all like solid state drives are so awesome zomg. Photoshop launches in 2 seconds!

  • Just1X

    @Charm

    it seems strange to me to have to define a new word (demisexual) for what I would have considered the ‘normal state’ desired by traditional society.

    I’m not saying that it was the reality in peoples’ hearts, but it was supposed to be…you’ve just made it sound like a pathology.

    Sounds like you’ve just got a good rein over your deeper emotions, not to sound antiquated, but that sounds healthy to me. Getting swept away by your emotions (a hamsterisation in my mind), belongs in romance novels.

  • Charm

    @Hope

    Sexuality is definitely a spectrum. You have the people who can get aroused by a complete stranger, those who experience no arousal and then a ton of people smashed somehwere in between the two. Being demi is a big reason why looks don’t matter that much to me. Most celebrities are just that–physical looks. I can like their movies and I might even be attracted to the character. Not the celeb playing the character, but the character that was written. It wouldnt too much matter what the character looked like. Though, obviously looks matter to some degree. I’ve never been one of those people that would disqualify a man just based on looks.

    So it gets pretty hazy because i also can’t qualify someone based on looks. This is why I’d probably end up dating someone I worked with or was introduced to me through someone else. A cold approach would never work with me. That 30 second rule of attraction doesnt apply to me. Ask me in 30 days, and I might be able to say whether or not I’d sleep with a person. Though, I will say that a really good conversation will peak my interest in someone. Give me a friendly debate with someone, and that could definitely determine if I’d be interested in them. Call me weird.

  • Charm

    @Just1X

    Well there are two types of attraction:

    Primary: Physical looks, mannerisms, smells

    Secondary: Personality, character etc

    Most people experience primary sexual attraction which draws them to another person. Demisexuals do not. So I wouldnt go into a bar and see a guy across the way and become interested in him. It wouldnt happen. Not saying all people do this, but a lot of people have a physical “type” and have been attracted to someone upon first meeting them at some point in their lives. Thats never happened for me. Demisexuals define attraction based strictly on secondary attraction which obviously takes a while to get to know someone to that extent. Then, after the attraction to who the person is has been forged, will a demisexual find the person sexually attractive, thus desiring sex with them.

    Most people who fall under “sexual” might choose to not have sex with someone they find sexually attractive simply because they do not know them or want to take time to get to know them and develop an emotion connection first. But if the physically attraction is there first, you aren’t demisexual.

  • Mike C

    Hmmm….I find an almost surreal irony in the last 150-200 comments in terms of what is being criticized as inappropriate male behavior juxtaposed against what is being defended as “girls will be girls” behavior that is perfectly A-OK.

    JM, you and I are often in disagreement, but I’m with you about 75% here in terms of what you find objectionable/problematic, and what you are arguing is the correct male-female parallel (yes male flirting is the equivalent of female “gushing”/”swooning”.

    Speaking of swooning as that word has come up a number of times in this discussion. Here is the definition of swooning:

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Swooning

    2. To be overwhelmed by ecstatic joy.

    I really have ZERO problem whatsoever with my GF noting an attractive man, saying a guy is “hot”. My GF thinks Hugh Jackman is hot and has said so. No big deal. I would have a problem though with my GF being overwhelmed by ecstatic joy by another man or his presence or any similar strong emotional reaction such as fainting. Really, those are just examples of hypergamy run amok. I suspect in this discussion the word swoon was used in a way that isn’t the actual definition above, but then it complicates discussions if we don’t use words as to what they really mean because then we have to guess what the person is really thinking and feeling instead of writing/saying.

    Again, everyone will have various boundaries about what they think “crosses the line” ih their relationship with their SO. JM is going to be more sensitive about stuff than I will. All that said, there is a serious disconnect in criticizing male behavior, and then in the next breath defending female gushing/excessive discussion over other men as just “girl talk”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Oh boy. I was the one who used the word swooning. Did I spend five television seasons overwhelmed by ecstatic joy at the sight of Tim Riggins/Taylor Kitsch? Not really. My bad. I spoke in hyperbole. In truth, I’m sure I never even used the word hot. I believe I discussed him only in the context of his TV show relationship with Minka Kelly. They sure did make a handsome couple.

      It’s all about intent. If I mention Taylor Kitsch to make my husband uneasy – that is manipulative. If my husband flirts with women to make me uneasy – that is manipulative. If I observe that Taylor Kitsch is a very good looking man, without intent to harm, that is not manipulative. If my husband enjoys a lively conversation with another woman without intent to signal attraction, that is not manipulative.

      The former is using the perceived weakness of another person to cause pain. The latter is enjoying being alive.

  • Just1X

    @Charm

    “But if the physically attraction is there first”

    as a man, what can I say? :)

    We are very visual in my experience, hence porn photography for men. Demisexuality must be rarer in men.

    Emo-porn for women (Oprah, Twilight, Soaps, Talk show), I guess that leaves more scope for demisexuality.

    But as a child I was brought up to believe that I should be a good man and let her see that, and she would come to appreciate my finer points. (Sucker)

    You see the problem?

    This is why men get pee’d off when they come across the Red Pill. Why many of them say things like “I have been lied to my entire life about how women work”, “Ahhhh! THAT’s why I never got anywhere with XXXXX” or even “That explains the divorce”

    I am laughing out loud as I type, but at the time it was mind blowing…

    The trouble now is, having realised how they’d been lied to, many horny men have gone out and investigated what does work – GAME – being the result.

    Never watched it, but I believe “Jersey Shore” shows where both boyz and gurlz end up when all the pretty lies about human nobility are stripped away, leaving the inner-bonobo exposed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      Never watched it, but I believe “Jersey Shore” shows where both boyz and gurlz end up when all the pretty lies about human nobility are stripped away, leaving the inner-bonobo exposed

      I’ve only watched a couple of episodes, but what struck me the most was the incredible lack of self-discipline, or put another way, the degree of self-indulgence. It’s pure narcissism. And there’s a socioeconomic component too – these folks are uneducated, and many watch to mock their stupidity.

  • Just1X

    @Mike C

    When the problem of fantasy falls too close to home

    (BBC comedy show Man stroke Woman)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rtBJwO4JZ5w

  • Charm

    @Just1x

    I dont think demisexuality has anything to do with biological sex. Just like asexuality doesn’t. Nor does bi or homosexuality. You’re just born that way, though Im sure that people look at male demisexuals like they aren’t manly at all. A lot of demisexuals tell people they are asexual because its easier then trying to explain it to people because they say it isn’t real, or even better, its called the “slut shaming” orientation. Which is funny because you men and women claim the orientation.

  • Cooper

    lol, I’m just sitting back on this one; there’s lots to read.

    I always like Charms’, and JMs’ posts.

  • Mike C

    It is better to fall in love with the real person than the idealized version in your head. True love embraces flaws, too. There is no perfect human being. We can only strive toward bettering ourselves,

    Hope, great stuff as always!

  • Just1X

    @Charm,

    okay, I wasn’t trying to demean anyone. I’m not a big fan of the frat-boy mentality (I watched brotherhood last night and I couldn’t see the attraction of going greek). Society would probably have a smoother path if sexuality wasn’t up front and foremost.

    I guess that I was trying to say was that with men (AFAICS) sexual triggers are more immediate (visual), so I’d guess that they’d be harder to override / break / downsize (I’m looking for the right word, but not getting it).

    With women (AFAICS) attraction is more complex, has more secondary cues, so I could see demisexuality as more achievable.

    It’s usually easier to alter the behaviour of a complex machine than a simple one. No judgements were implied, just wondering how it might work under the hood.

    And I definitely believe in ‘people are born with a particular orientation’. Shaming someone for being gay is about as valid as shaming short / bald / ginger people.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Anacaona, that love feeling can be transmuted into spiritual love which is very strong. My husband and I are not “in lust.” It’s a mind/heart/soul/body thing.

    That is the bond I’m talking about. Lust is part of it but is not all

    I assume I am my wife’s “A guy” because she’s still here and she has given me no indications of stepping out.

    Another good point nowadays women have no obligation to stay in a marriage any longer they can tolerate it whether months, years, kids whatever she staying mean something it shouldn’t be dismissed as just air.

    Again, everyone will have various boundaries about what they think “crosses the line” ih their relationship with their SO. JM is going to be more sensitive about stuff than I will. All that said, there is a serious disconnect in criticizing male behavior, and then in the next breath defending female gushing/excessive discussion over other men as just “girl talk”.

    I think the principal disconnect is “the physical presence of the object of affection” a guy that flirts with other woman in front of his wife/GF can easily get a phone number and a clandestine date and consummate in secret what he started in daylight with the aggravated effect of humiliating the wife/gf in front of everyone in near sight.
    When a girl is on her book club gushing about Edward Cullen, is very unlikely she can make him jump out of the pages, or that his male friends will see her bashing her husband (and flirting with other woman is a form of signaling that your wife is inadequate to others) and they know that even if Edward was real he is a happily married vampire that has no eyes for anyone but Bella.
    That being said is a good idea for all of us to find out what makes our SO feels humiliated and not doing or if is too much breaking up with him or her. So no dread for men, no gushing for women till their SO indicate they are okay with that and in what circumstances they find it harmless. I think that is fair enough isn’t it?

  • Lokland

    “or that his male friends will see her bashing her husband (and flirting with other woman is a form of signaling that your wife is inadequate to others)”

    By this logic its okay to hit on other women as long as everyone present does not know your SO. I highly doubt it would fly to disrespect your wife simple because she is not present.

    Why is it acceptable to disrespect hubby as long as he or his friends ain’t there?

    I’m not interested in my friends respect I have that a million times over. I want her respect thats whats being questioned.

    As for the possibility of it being real. “hunny I really like him but I don’t stand a chance in getting him he is just so much better than me or just so much better than the real world he couldn’t possibly exist.”

    You can say it differently but this is what it translates to for me and I’ll wager a guess most of the other guys here.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted,

    Again, your dwelling on something that you don’t even know is true. Don’t. If you can’t get past it, ask and get it out in the open. You may not like the answer, but I believe it is always better to act out of knowledge than out of ignorance. “Knowing is half the battle!”

    Thanks, bro. Actually I’m not dwelling on it anymore. I was just trying to explain my position. And thanks for the pep talks.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    My bad. Posted this in the wrong thread:

    Passer by,

    I think it’s pretty obvious that we need to organize an HUS get together in Mahoney’s home town, find his brother, and kick the livin’ shit out him.

    Ha! Thanks, but the best revenge is really living well. Which I’m doing right now.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Why is it acceptable to disrespect hubby as long as he or his friends ain’t there?

    Wait what?! I though the problem was finding another guy better than you? How respect has to do with this, unless your problem is other women agreeing with your SO that other men are hotter than you and is disrespectful for her to point it out in public?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    I want to say “Well why didn’t you say so?” but I’m afraid you will think I’m being flippant. If you were here I would give you a motherly hug.

    Thanks. And flippancy would be fine. I didn’t say so because I don’t want to pitied. While I’m not going to claim that there aren’t memories that linger like distance bruises, the whole thing is really a source of pride to me. Not many people make it through that kind of thing and come out where I am today. I overcome. So it’s okay.

    You’ve talked about how screwed up your childhood was – you’ve provided a few specifics here and there, but I honestly had no idea that was the dynamic, especially with your mother.

    Honestly, in the context of everything else I dealt with, a running joke of “you’re no Bon Jovi” is hardly worth an eye roll.

    What I think is most important for you is to make sure your gf knows that too, and how just the mention of pretty boys sets you off.

    Probably this won’t make a lot of sense to you, but I don’t want to limit her in that way. I’d rather get to know how she really feels about things than forewarn her of sore spots. Not that I hide what’s happened to me–I don’t–but I don’t want to be treated with kid gloves.

    Thank you for sharing that last comment. Context is everything.

    NP

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      Probably this won’t make a lot of sense to you, but I don’t want to limit her in that way. I’d rather get to know how she really feels about things than forewarn her of sore spots. Not that I hide what’s happened to me–I don’t–but I don’t want to be treated with kid gloves.

      You are a good man and a proud man. I respect your struggle and where you came out on the other end.

      I understand what you are saying about your gf. But please – know that she could step into a land mine. If that should happen, for the sake of your relationship, cut her some slack. At the very least, be ready to talk. You have said you can see spending the rest of your life with her. She will learn to know your demons. And you will learn hers. There is no other way. I think you will relate to the idea of love as total surrender.

  • Lokland

    “Wait what?! I though the problem was finding another guy better than you? How respect has to do with this, unless your problem is other women agreeing with your SO that other men are hotter than you and is disrespectful for her to point it out in public?”

    That was JM. Most of us aren’t that particular on this point.

    Simple fact, when a woman gushes/swoons etc. about another man it feels like shit. It feels like shit because it is a sign of complete disrespect.

    Is that not the same process for women? Hit on other woman, feel like shit. Feel like shit because disrespectful and doesn’t love me.

    And remember for men, respect = love. Or respect > love. (For me their synonymous.)

    As for it being in public, no. Its doing it period. Again sign of disrespect towards us = she does not love you.
    As for her friends agreeing with her gushing that another guys is ohh so hot. Yeah thats problematic.
    Her agreeing with her friends another guy is hot that they brought up. Not so much. However if she decies to gush about just how aesome he is then yeah its problematic.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Charm,

    That’s interesting about demisexuals. I think someone else mentioned them once before. Incidentally, I don’t think that describes me. I see many women that I find “hot”, but none as hot as my gf. And I saw many attractive women when I was single, but my first thought was to get to know them a bit. The physical part would rouse me, but if their personality turned me off, then that killed any sort of attraction I may have had for them.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hope,

    Sorry to hear that Jesus Mahoney. I was also the ugly duckling growing up, too, and told I was short/dark-skinned/fat and compared to a taller/prettier/thinner older cousin. But I don’t feel that same kind of resentment because she was very nice to me, and I was the far more extroverted one. She’s still super shy.

    Thanks, but it’s okay. Sorry you grew up feeling like the ugly duckling though. It’s funny, I know that I had the worst self-image growing up: I thought I had a big head, goofy hair, and a scrawny body. But I have a picture of me hanging up on my computer monitor back from when I was 8–I was a pretty good-looking kid: curly brown hair, strong chin, two dark deep-set eyes swimming with loch ness creatures below their surface. Sometimes I can’t look at the eyes and other times I can’t look away. Sometimes I smile because I see the thing in the eyes that got me where I am today.

    Probably you weren’t the ugly duckling you thought. Whatever the case, while I definitely wouldn’t wish that sort of pain on a child, I think in certain cases it forges something in your soul that carries you above and beyond what others are capable of. And I see that kind of something when I read a lot of your posts.

    Of course, it can also forge a monster. I’ve had friends who’ve become the demons that hit them as boys.

  • Escoffier

    Jesus, don’t feel sorry for me, I’m not the one whose superiority complex is making it impossible to find a mate.

  • Charm

    @Jesus

    Finding people “hot” seems so bothersome to me. I wouldnt know who to pick. There would be so many choices. Demisexuality is more efficient to me, which is good because I like efficiency.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike C

    JM, you and I are often in disagreement, but I’m with you about 75% here in terms of what you find objectionable/problematic, and what you are arguing is the correct male-female parallel (yes male flirting is the equivalent of female “gushing”/”swooning”.

    Thanks, bro.

  • Charm

    And remember for men, respect = love. Or respect > love. (For me their synonymous.)

    I’ll drink to that.

    But its the same for me as well.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    Jesus, don’t feel sorry for me, I’m not the one whose superiority complex is making it impossible to find a mate.

    I have a mate, but thanks. And I don’t feel sorry for you. Should I?

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Jesus Mahoney, I think growing up feeling like an ugly duckling helped me a lot in this SMP, because in reality I was not too shabby looking, and guys seemed to like my downplaying my looks.

    And yes, I agree. Pain in childhood sucks. But it did help me become stronger.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Charm,

    Finding people “hot” seems so bothersome to me. I wouldnt know who to pick. There would be so many choices. Demisexuality is more efficient to me, which is good because I like efficiency.

    lol. Whatever gets you through the night. :P

  • purplesneakers

    Does it make a difference once a couple is older and commenting on younger peoples’ appearances? My mother’s friends will often say to each other things like, “Your daughter is very pretty” or “your son is very tall and handsome,” blah blah blah. I doubt the men make comments like this to each other, haha, but one of them (age 50) did go up to a very good-looking and tall young guy (age 21) recently and tell him that “the girls will be running after you but you should stay away and listen to your mother” (typical indian advice). My dad has made comments to my mother along the lines of “that girl will have no trouble finding a husband, she’s smart and cute.” Honestly I have more of an issue with knowing that my dad is noticing other women than I think my mother does.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    I missed the following post from you earlier. I’m assuming this is the issue that put you on the defensive:

    Since JM wants to hold my wife up as an example of what’s wrong with womanhood, I feel I owe her a defense since I was the one who shared that story.

    “Hottie” is a stupid teenie-bopper word and my wife is a serious person so I would not expect her to use it ever. The point of that story was more how strange it was to hear that kind of slang come out of her mouth. She is about as disconnected from youth/pop culture as one can get. I’m rather proud that she never talks like that and I would not have married someone who does.

    “Hottie” is definitely a “teenie-bopper” word. I can see how it would be strange to hear your ultra-serious-disconnected-from-youth-and-pop-culture wife use it. I think that’s part of the reason the story irked me. Here she is, sober and staid and “adult” with you for 15 yrs, and yet a meeting with the Governator reduces her to a fawning schoolgirl.

    Of course, you know her better than I do. I was commenting less on your wife as a person and more on the story itself.

    And again, I don’t feel bad for you. In a strange way, the picture I get of you from your posts is of a man comfortably ensconced in his own mediocrity: you can’t learn game, you can’t manage to be as good as TFL, you can’t write your Wolfean novel about Berkley, you can’t bulk up even if you tried, the only time your wife used the word “hottie” it was about another man–a man bulked up like you could never be. I figure all those short-comings somehow define you, make you feel comfortable. You like them. So why would I feel bad?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    You have said you can see spending the rest of your life with her… I think you will relate to the idea of love as total surrender.

    I can. And I do. And I will cut her some slack and talk things out.

    Thanks :)

  • Escoffier

    Wow, I really touched a nerve, didn’t I? BTW, it’s spelled “Berkeley.”

    Anyway, here is the essential point. 99% of humans–and 99.9 with the little bar on top % of human males–can judge a face/body attractive or unattractive while knowing nothing whatsoever about the accompanying personality, and even if they know that personality is lousy. It’s just an aesthetic judgement, or an aesthetic-sexual judgement. Show a guy a photo of a girl and he can say whether he finds her pretty or not. Point a girl out accross the room, and ditto.

    Now, you may well be a person who cannot form such a judgement. To you, January Jones v. Kathy Bates … can’t say which is more physically attractive just by looking at them. You need to get to know them first. I find this hard to believe but I will take your word for it.

    If so, that makes you … unusual … not normal … an outlier … quite extremely rare … etc. It doesn’t make you superior in any way. Just different in a highly unusual (and basically irrelevant) way. That’s all. And it doesn’t make the other 99.9% of men who in fact can make aesthetic judgements in any way inferior or shallow or whatever else you want to imply.

    As for your mate, good luck. You have, to be blunt, a preposterous and narcissistc standard for what you expect from her. She has to find you the most physically perfect speciment of all 3.5 billion men on the planet? Problem #1 is, you’re not. Problem #2 is, the chances that such a girl exists are around one out of 10 to the 23rd. Problem #3 is, even if she exists, your chances of finding her are just about as slim. Problem #4 is, even if you find her, what if you don’t like her? Problem #5 is, suppose you found her and you like her, how do you really know she feels that way? What if she’s just prudent enough to understand your insecurity and conceal all indications that she in fact does not find you the most handsome man in the world? What then? Are you going to polygraph her? On a regular schedule to ensure that no other attractive man has wandered by since the last test?

    The best you can do in real life is find a girl who loves you and treats you very well and simply refuses to acknowledge in any way that better looking men exist. That’s actually pretty good. Not good enough for you, I gather, but it’s plenty good enough for the rest of us.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    You didn’t touch a nerve at all. Actually, I’m just confused why you think my POV is narcissistic. And I think that January Jones is much better-looking than Kathy Bates. Incidentally, I had no idea who either of these women were until I Googled them, so I know nothing of their personalities. If Jones turned out to be a bitch, then while I would still be able to identify her as the better-looking one, I wouldn’t feel any sort of attraction towards her at all. If that makes me an extreme outlier, then I’m okay with that. If that makes my POV irrelevant to you, I’m okay with that. Of course, my POV is still quite relevant to me.

    My gf’s short. 5’0 even. And while I never sought out short women before… idk, I love it about my gf. I love her, and all the things about her have become things I love and am attracted to. Does that mean shortness is a quality I find attractive in other women? Not necessarily, though I don’t find it unattractive either. But my gf’s shortness, the way she can rest her head on my chest when we’re standing, the way I can kiss the top of her head, the way I can easily pick her up and pretty much do whatever I want with her… all those things have become… perfect.

    Not sure if I’m explaining it well. There was definitely physical attraction from the start. She’s very pretty (though I can recognize that someone like Ted, who prefers full-figured women, would probably not think so), and I noticed that right from the start, of course. But her personality is very feminine, and that amplified the initial attraction. The more I got to know her, the more I wanted to be with her. And even now, the more I see her and talk to her and laugh with her and have sex with her and argue and reconcile and do nice things for her and allow her to do nice things for me… the more that attraction gets amplified. The better I know her, the more attractive she becomes to me.

    So at least in the moment, being in love with her, I couldn’t comprehend someone more attractive than her. Sure, I see hot girls all the time, but it’s not like it is with her. With her, she can flash me one of those cute proud smiles or just fool around with her niece and nephew or express empathy for someone’s suffering or any number of things, and it makes me want to tear her clothes off and put babies inside of her. Just talking about it makes me want to put babies inside of her. So I can’t fathom even having the desire to gush about another woman. Other women can be attractive, but all that attraction pales next to the attraction I feel towards her.

    And I want that feeling to be reciprocated. I don’t think that makes me a narcissist. Could be that it makes me naive, foolish, preposterous, etc… but I don’t care.

    I’m not sure how it works with unattractive people. My hope for everyone is that they can find a partner who thinks they’re attractive.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Also, this:

    The best you can do in real life is find a girl who loves you and treats you very well and simply refuses to acknowledge in any way that better looking men exist. That’s actually pretty good.

    I don’t get how finding a girl who refuses to acknowledge what she thinks or feels can in any way be considered “pretty good.”

  • Escoffier

    Right, no nerve touched, that explains post 744, a rather unappetizing window into the darker recesses of your soul.

    Anyway, you are walking back your earlier assertion, viz., when you said you could not find someone attractive without knowing their personality. Your new stance is more logical and reasonable.

    RE: your last point, in that little hypothetical, she’s not refusing to acknowledge ALL that she thinks or feels; she’s refusing to acknowledge one point only, that she finds some men more physically attractive than you. The reason why this outcome is “pretty good” is because of the extreme improbabilty that you will find a woman who literally believes you to be the most physically attractive person on the planet. If this is your standard, and you have said repeatedly that it is, my contention is that it will never be met. The best you can do is find someone who never lets on that in fact you are not the hottest man on the planet. I hope you can accept that without going into an Inquisition-style attemt to divine her true feelings on that one subject. Beyond which, I have no idea how you would ever be able to know for certain because any girl with sense who loved you and actually wanted to keep would just lie.

    On this point, I suggest reading Xenophon’s Hiero, which explains this problem better than any other literature I know of.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    Right, no nerve touched, that explains post 744, a rather unappetizing window into the darker recesses of your soul.

    Darker recesses? Because I think you find comfort in your view of yourself as an average person? Hm…

    Anyway, you are walking back your earlier assertion, viz., when you said you could not find someone attractive without knowing their personality. Your new stance is more logical and reasonable.

    That’s not a new stance. It’s always been my stance. My apologies to you if I made that unclear.

  • this is Jen

    Author: Sassy6519
    Comment:
    I’ll check back in with everyone later. I’m on my way to Michigan to visit a
    friend. “Pure Michigan”, here I come.
    —————————————————————————–

    Safe travels, sassy. I am just checking back in, myself, after working late last night and then driving til 1 am to a conference. I am trying to read thru everything before I comment, but its hard!

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    I’m hoping everyone is settled today. I don’t think I have it in me for any more messages of hope and love. (note Hope the regular poster at HUS, hope as in things will get better tomorrow… :P)

    JM – much respect. It sounds to me like you are indeed doing it right by simply living well. It amazes me how some people can come from horrible situations and use it to drive ambition and improvement while others succumb and fail. I’m a bit of an “old testament” kinda guy and tend to view life as the mother of all shit tests. The goal is to finish in a better place than you started, and it seems to me like you are well on your way.

    Escoffier – “The best you can do in real life is find a girl who loves you and treats you very well and simply refuses to acknowledge in any way that better looking men exist. That’s actually pretty good. Not good enough for you, I gather, but it’s plenty good enough for the rest of us.”

    To me that is about as close to ideal as I could ever expect. In fact, I know beyond all doubt that is even expecting too much. I’m happy that she simply understands why it bothers me, and is willing to do something about it. And actually, since that one issue, we are now at a place where I’m not offended if/when she acknowledges a guys “hotness”, because I understand her better, and she communicates with me better. I have no misconception of how I compare to models and actors. Even in my best condition, I couldn’t compete on a purely physical level. That’s fine, because she isn’t with me based only on my looks (obviously LOL).

    It’s all in the presentation for me, because I am a bit of a word stickler. Hell, we still have tiffs from time to time because she has a habit of being lazy with her word use, and it really bothers me when someone willingly messes up semantics. I suppose that is partly why she feels I “think” too much. She also isn’t used to being with someone that actually reads books, so I think she is still acclimating to a guy that not only cares what she says/thinks, but pays particular attention to exactly how she says it. I’ve asked her before how she dealt with it, and she said “I’m from the woods of New Hampshire. Not a lot of intellectuals up there to choose from.” Having visited her home town I can completely understand the statement. It looked a lot like rich rednecks. No disrespect to anyone here that may be country folk, but I’m talking like the show “My Redneck Vacation”. Yep, lots of people with really expensive trucks and SUVs, but not much in terms of intellectual stimulation. They seem to pass the time drinking and driving those expensive vehicles over all kinds of wooded terrain. Don’t get me wrong, “wheeling” is really fun. But it is one of those things that takes more balls than brains, especially when your doing it with your 45k brand new 1-ton Dodge pickup.

    I’m rambling again. All that positive energy I was dishing out yesterday has me feeling all social this morning. I might just strike up a conversation or two in the office today and freak everyone out. :P

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The reason why this outcome is “pretty good” is because of the extreme improbabilty that you will find a woman who literally believes you to be the most physically attractive person on the planet.

    Why’s that improbable? I’ve found the most physically attractive woman on the planet….

    The best you can do is find someone who never lets on that in fact you are not the hottest man on the planet.

    Nah, that doesn’t sound appealing.

    I hope you can accept that without going into an Inquisition-style attemt to divine her true feelings on that one subject.

    I can’t accept that. But I would never interrogate her on the subject.

    any girl with sense who loved you and actually wanted to keep would just lie.

    Wow. Sorry I can’t share your cynicism, Escoffier.

  • Sassy6519

    and it makes me want to tear her clothes off and put babies inside of her. Just talking about it makes me want to put babies inside of her.

    I hope no man ever says something like this to me or about me. For some reason, this really grossed me out.

    She has to find you the most physically perfect speciment of all 3.5 billion men on the planet? Problem #1 is, you’re not. Problem #2 is, the chances that such a girl exists are around one out of 10 to the 23rd. Problem #3 is, even if she exists, your chances of finding her are just about as slim. Problem #4 is, even if you find her, what if you don’t like her? Problem #5 is, suppose you found her and you like her, how do you really know she feels that way? What if she’s just prudent enough to understand your insecurity and conceal all indications that she in fact does not find you the most handsome man in the world? What then? Are you going to polygraph her? On a regular schedule to ensure that no other attractive man has wandered by since the last test?

    The best you can do in real life is find a girl who loves you and treats you very well and simply refuses to acknowledge in any way that better looking men exist. That’s actually pretty good. Not good enough for you, I gather, but it’s plenty good enough for the rest of us.

    I’m with you on this Escoffier.

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    I’m sorry to hear about your experiences. It definitely makes me understand why you have such a strong gut reaction to this topic. With that being said, I agree with Susan Walsh that your girlfriend may inadvertently step on a land mine with this. If she does, you should cut her a bit of slack.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I hope no man ever says something like this to me or about me. For some reason, this really grossed me out.

    lol. You don’t like babies though, right? Really I just mean I want to have loads of sex with her. But I do think a lot about making babies with her.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted,

    I’m a bit of an “old testament” kinda guy and tend to view life as the mother of all shit tests. The goal is to finish in a better place than you started, and it seems to me like you are well on your way.

    Thanks. And I like the idea of life as the mother of all shit tests.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    “I hope no man ever says something like this to me or about me. For some reason, this really grossed me out.”

    I know this wasn’t directed at me but we are getting close to marriage and babies.
    This has become a normal dialogue for us both in and out of bed and it runs in both directions.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    JM – “So at least in the moment, being in love with her, I couldn’t comprehend someone more attractive than her. Sure, I see hot girls all the time, but it’s not like it is with her. With her, she can flash me one of those cute proud smiles or just fool around with her niece and nephew or express empathy for someone’s suffering or any number of things, and it makes me want to tear her clothes off and put babies inside of her.”

    Cosign. This is exactly what I was trying to describe (although much more graphically, sorry to anyone with delicate sensibilities) earlier when I mentioned what about my SO turns me on now that we’ve been together awhile. What you are describing strikes me as exactly what SHOULD happen in a blooming relationship, where raw animal attraction is slowly replaced by emotional attraction. The thing is, for guys like us, we start off with just a sliver of the physical attraction, and start building that emotional attraction quickly and fiercely. I think I was full on attached to my SO within three months of deciding to go all in. I was starting to build those before I even committed, against my own will I might add. I suppose it is my attachment style that drives this, but I’ve never really read up on those.

    “And I want that feeling to be reciprocated. I don’t think that makes me a narcissist. Could be that it makes me naive, foolish, preposterous, etc… but I don’t care.”

    My friend, I don’t think one single man here would say you are a narcissist for wanting that returned. Or naïve, foolish, etc… But, what I came to realize is, a person CAN reciprocate exactly what you described while still finding other people attractive physically. It’s the same as how some people have no issue separating sex and love. I think many people have no issue separating physical attraction from the deeper attraction derived by meaningful commitment. I can’t do it, probably because I also can’t easily separate sex from love. I believe your adventures into the casual proved the same to you for yourself. You can certainly look for a woman of like mind, but it won’t be an easy task. And, you already have someone in your life that you are happy with. I hate to say it, but this is where that “C” word you hate so much comes into play. You may have to compromise and simply accept that most people, possibly including your SO, don’t have a problem separating physical attraction from the intimate stuff. I can’t, you can’t, maybe Charm and Hope and a few others here can’t, but the vast majority of the world’s human population seems to have very little trouble with it. So what? At the risk of adding support to Jess and Tom’s view of the world, even if she doesn’t feel exactly like you, that doesn’t mean she can’t and won’t be dedicated to you and your relationship for the rest of her life.

    Seriously though, I’m in a good mood and feeling overly optimistic, which is weirding me out. If this doesn’t stop, I’ll be forced to go to Rollo’s blog and read the comments. I’m not kidding, I’ve already pulled the link up on Google… Don’t push me! :p

  • this is Jen

    sassy wrote

    Why do the guys here keep upping the ante in the conversation? How does saying a
    male celebrity is hot compare to a woman practically having a conniption over
    one?
    ————————————————————————–

    whew, THANK YOU!! That’s my question. Not sure how it got so far toward the extreme. I am deleriously happily married, and want to stay that way.
    We know what we have found in eachother. We have created a family and a life together.

    That does not mean there isnt a good lookin celeb or two that I won’t notice from time to time. but That. Is. All.
    Those 2 things CAN co-exist.

    There are men who think that its okay for their wifes to “work up an appetite” anywhere they want- as long as they only “eat at home.” My husband isnt one of those.

  • Escoffier

    To the fabulist/utopian, realism always sounds like cynicism.

    You are still stuck with the problem: how do you know? You’ve implied that you’ve never had the conversation, then you have absolutly no idea. You’ve also implied that you don’t want to have the conversation, which implies that you are not convinced that you will like the answer.

    BTW, lying to you about that would not be an act of cynicism on her part but an act of love. She can love you for myriad reasons other than that she finds you literally the hottest man on the planet. If she knows your … um … inistence on this point and she really loves you and wants to keep you, then lying is a good strategy. Since you can never really know whether she means it or not, but it’s important to you to at least hear it, by lying she gets to keep you and you get to hear what you want to hear.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    TiJ – “That does not mean there isnt a good lookin celeb or two that I won’t notice from time to time. but That. Is. All.
    Those 2 things CAN co-exist.

    There are men who think that its okay for their wifes to “work up an appetite” anywhere they want- as long as they only “eat at home.” My husband isnt one of those.”

    I agree that the two can co-exist, but I’m not going to say that I like it at all. As far as “working up an appetite” goes? If, I’m with your husband. I also know women that are cool with their BF/Husband hitting the strip club from time to time, and I can’t fathom it. The thing is, I’m pretty sure my SO falls into this category. She knows full well that I get NO enjoyment out of going to “gentlemen’s clubs”, so we’ve never really discussed it. But, I remember when one of our friends was getting married, she mentioned that if there was going to be a strip club involved for the bachelor’s party, she was fine with it as long as she got to join us. Needless to say I skipped out on that part of the evening’s festivities anyway. I can tell you (and have told her) that if she went to one of those Chippendale male review shows, I would be insanely jealous and she should expect me to be less than enthusiastic of any sexual advances she makes at me for awhile. Maybe that is completely irrational, but I don’t care.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ted,

    That’s awesome that you’re feeling so optimistic. I like it.

    What you are describing strikes me as exactly what SHOULD happen in a blooming relationship, where raw animal attraction is slowly replaced by emotional attraction. The thing is, for guys like us, we start off with just a sliver of the physical attraction, and start building that emotional attraction quickly and fiercely.

    For me, I wouldn’t say that the animal attraction is replaced by emotional attraction. It’s more that the emotional attraction enhances and focuses all that animal sex drive.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Escoffier – “If she knows your … um … inistence on this point and she really loves you and wants to keep you, then lying is a good strategy.”

    Exactly. I realized that I needed to get MY feelings in check, or I would force my SO to choose between hurting my feelings and lying to me to protect them. I don’t like being hurt, but I certainly don’t want her to lie to me. So, I made it clear that if what she had to tell me was important to us, that I want the truth even if it hurts. But, she should feel free to exclude any unnecessary comments about other men that would trigger my ire, and to be honest, I don’t think she even sees that as an inconvenience. And strangely enough, as much as this entire issue strikes me as a DLV, having that conversation with her seemed to actually increase her respect and appreciation for me a little. Sure, admitting it meant I have some insecurity issues. But, actually discussing it with her meant I cared enough to work it out instead of calling it quits or retaliating with something similar. (Flirting with other women comes to mine. LOL)

    But what do I know about milking ducks?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    You are still stuck with the problem: how do you know? You’ve implied that you’ve never had the conversation, then you have absolutly no idea. You’ve also implied that you don’t want to have the conversation, which implies that you are not convinced that you will like the answer.

    I’m not stuck with that problem, you are. I don’t want to have the conversation, that’s true. But not because I’m afraid I won’t like the answer. I don’t want to have the conversation because I want things to progress naturally and honestly. If the issue arises, we’ll talk about it.

    Also, the idea that I don’t want to have the conversation implies that I’m not convince that I would like the answer is absurd. Why would I have a conversation if I *were* convinced that I would like the answer? That would be a bit solipsistic.

    And honestly, the idea that she might not feel that way hardly occurs to me. It didn’t at all until this debate popped up.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    BTW, lying to you about that would not be an act of cynicism on her part but an act of love.

    Lying as an act of love? That’s not cynical?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Escoffier, one can be both realist and an idealist, just not both at the exact same time. ;)

    When it comes to our marriage, sometimes I have my head in the clouds, and other times I’m on the floor scrubbing the dirt. It’s the way of life for a woman. We have to be grounded and practical, at least some of the time.

    You and JM are both so stubborn. :P I can see both of your perspectives and even agree with them both at the same time. Maybe not at the exact same time, but close enough. One approach is very emotional and intimate, while the other approach is very logical and impersonal, and both can be used properly in different ways.

    Just my 2c.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    One approach is very emotional and intimate, while the other approach is very logical and impersonal, and both can be used properly in different ways.

    I’m a little stubborn, but I’m open-minded enough to acknowledge that if a person wants a logical and impersonal marriage, they should ignore me and listen to Escoffier.

  • Escoffier

    No, it’s not cynical at all. Suppose your GF once dated a genuine 10. Tom Brady looks. (I will spare us all another pretentious claim that “you don’t know who he is” and you the Google time by stating up front that he is the extremely handsome quarterback for the NE Patriots, which is a professional football team.)

    But for whatever reason they broke up and she is completely over him and completely loves you. She has zero interest in getting him back and never even reminisces fondly about him. (This is improbable, maybe, but assume it for the sake of argument.)

    However, as an objective phyiscal matter, she knows him to be better looking than you. She also knows that if you knew this you would be devastated and would leave her. In all likelihood she views this as a foible on your part, a strange and uncessary insecurity, but she’s willing to deal with it because she loves you. So, strategy number one is never to bring it up and dodge it when the issue comes up. But if the issue is forced and you insist on a straight answer, then lying to spare your feelings would be an act of love. There is no reason to hurt you uncessarily and we’ve established that she doesn’t want to leave you nor you to leave her.

    Beyond this, the fact remains that you don’t know and can never know, unless you can read minds, which you can’t, which is just one more reason why your standard is absurd.

    I do find the following hilarious however. One trope of the manosphere is that modern women have absurd standards, 463 point checklists, 5s think they are 9s and demand 10s, etc. There is much truth in this. But we have apparently found the flipside, the absurd standard of a couple of males who insist that it’s not good enough merely to be genuinely loved ; they must also be considered to be the most phyiscally attractive male in the Universe.

  • Escoffier

    Hope, have you ever, in your 28 years, seen a man who is more physically attractive than your huband?

  • purplesneakers

    I think where the disconnect lies is that JM sees acknowledging that there’s someone more attractive than your mate as not just someone more physically attractive (like if a man is madly in love with a Kathy Bates look-alike but acknowledges that January Jones is pretty hot), but also more attractive in general as a mate, because for him they’re one and the same. Whereas for most other people, both men and women, they can recognize other people’s physical attractiveness (especially older people about younger people. I notice how beautiful/handsome the girls and boys I used to baby-sit have turned out) but still think their mate is the hottest person in the world… for them.

    So, JM, I see where you’re coming from, but seriously, stop crapping on Escoffier’s marriage.

  • purplesneakers

    Personally, I would find it ridiculous for anyone, even my husband to think that I’m the most objectively good-looking woman in the world. Pretty, sure, and subjectively most beautiful would be great, but the most objectively beautiful woman in the world? Hell to the no.

    I shouldn’t kick this dead horse of an argument anymore, but I would also find it ridiculous if a guy asked “Do you think I’m the most attractive guy in the world?” or even “Do you think I’m the most attractive guy you’ve ever dated?” or hinted at anything along those lines. I wouldn’t do the same, because I acknowledge that I’m insecure but I don’t want to be annoying to men and send them running because of my insecurities.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    No, I know who Tom Brady is.

    She also knows that if you knew this you would be devastated and would leave her. In all likelihood she views this as a foible on your part, a strange and uncessary insecurity, but she’s willing to deal with it because she loves you. So, strategy number one is never to bring it up and dodge it when the issue comes up. But if the issue is forced and you insist on a straight answer, then lying to spare your feelings would be an act of love. There is no reason to hurt you uncessarily and we’ve established that she doesn’t want to leave you nor you to leave her.

    That would be very self-serving on her part. If she lies in order to “keep” me, then she’s depriving me of the opportunity to make a fully-informed decision about the relationship. I don’t see how that kind of lie would be any different from a woman lying about her sexual past.

    I find your perception of me interesting. But it’s pointless to keep debating the point. We disagree. You think I’m a narcissist and I think you’re a whiner who objects to anybody that refuses to settle for as little in life as you have. I don’t think we’ll ever settle this.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    PS – “I think where the disconnect lies is that JM sees acknowledging that there’s someone more attractive than your mate as not just someone more physically attractive (like if a man is madly in love with a Kathy Bates look-alike but acknowledges that January Jones is pretty hot), but also more attractive in general as a mate, because for him they’re one and the same. ”

    Yes. This is the problem I have with casual sex. I can’t easily separate sex from love, and I find it very difficult to understand how easily other people can. It bothers me a great deal some days, but I can’t change it. And like I said above, I’d wager it is this that also makes me so sensitive to any comments about other men. I can on a basic level look at a women and determine she is hot by physical standards. But I don’t take it to a personal level, even in my head, as in “DAMN that woman is fine! I’d love to…”, but clearly this is the default thought process for many men. I’ve literally heard those kinds of comments out of guys that are and have been happily with a woman for years. On occasion, I’ve even given them shit about how they would never cheat, and the response was “of course not!”. So, why even think about it in the first place?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    purple,

    Escoffier’s been at me and my “narcissistic” views. I mentioned one story he related as an example of something I would find objectionable and he jumped all over me and my idealism. Personally, I think his views on marriage and relationships suck, but I don’t think I’ve been crapping on them.

    And I’m with you about “asking” your mate whether he or she thinks you’re the most attractive. It’s a very needy and insecure question. I’ve never asked and I never would.

  • Escoffier

    Unless I missed it, we have have not heard from a single female who has said that she demands her man to consider her the most attractive woman in the world. I think this because women know on a very basic level that men find lots of women attractive and they are also very attuned to the female-looks-pecking-order and as loath as they can be to admit it, they know more or less where they stand. Men drooling over hot babes is also a pervasive meme in our culture in a way that women drooling over men is far less prevalent. They just don’t get hung up on this. Sure, they’d be hurt if their man were always rubbing their nose in how hot he finds other women. But they are way less sensetive on this point than men are.

    And it’s fine to be sensetive about it. I told that story about my mother and Jim Palmer. I would be hacked off if someone gave my wife a poster of a famous athlete in his underwear. So I am more sensetive on this point than my father.

    I was not offended at all, however, when she called Arnold a “hottie.”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I think where the disconnect lies is that JM sees acknowledging that there’s someone more attractive than your mate as not just someone more physically attractive (like if a man is madly in love with a Kathy Bates look-alike but acknowledges that January Jones is pretty hot), but also more attractive in general as a mate, because for him they’re one and the same.

    Well, hello, that’s what attraction is. Attraction is the force that impels you towards the attractive person or object.

    What I’m saying is that my “ideal” of “most attractive” has become my gf. So I literally think she’s the hottest woman. I’m pretty sure that I don’t know of another women I would say is physically more attractive than my gf.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    I haven’t *demanded* anything. That would be absurd. I simply said that I would end the relationship if it were otherwise.

  • Escoffier

    JM, it’s obvious that I have upset you a great deal, which was not my intent. So, sorry.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    I’m not at all upset, so no apology is necessary. I just don’t believe in lying to spare a person’s feelings, so I tell it like it is. Or at least I tell it how it seems to me.

  • Escoffier

    That’s not what I meant, as I suspect you know.

    Anyway, so you will never ask because the question is insecure, but the need itself is not insecure? And since you will never ask, then obviously you can never know. Yet still the standard is deal-breaker for you? It’s not a demand, but you would walk if it were not met?

    The contradictions are piled high.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    Questions cannot be insecure. They’re just utterances ending with up-turned cadences. Asking the question, though, would reflect uncertainty. If I asked, that would mean I didn’t know. And, while you’re absolutely right that I don’t actually know with 100% certainty whether she feels that way or not (anymore than I know with a certainty that the sun will continue to warm the Earth or implode in a minute from now), I believe that she does. Of course, she can just be a master faker. For that matter, I don’t really know if Cheerios are her favorite cereal of if she’s just saying that because she know they’re *my* favorite cereal. And I don’t even “know” if her orgasms are real or fake. That’s where trust comes in. I trust that what she’s conveying to me in our relationship is honest and I trust myself to be able to discern the real from the fake.

    And of course none of this is a demand. A demand would be, “you better think I’m the best.” I’m not saying that. I’m just saying that if she didn’t, I’d walk and find someone I’m more compatible with. And allow her to do the same.

    I don’t see any contradictions.

  • purplesneakers

    JM @ 774- fair enough.

    Well, hello, that’s what attraction is. Attraction is the force that impels you towards the attractive person or object.

    What I’m saying is that my “ideal” of “most attractive” has become my gf. So I literally think she’s the hottest woman. I’m pretty sure that I don’t know of another women I would say is physically more attractive than my gf.

    I think there might literally be an inability to understand what I mean here, *because* this is how you see attraction.

    What I mean is- I know some underwear model out there is objectively more physically attractive than the guy I’m dating. But the guy I’m dating is sexy and smart and nice and I really like him. In this I actually feel the same way that you do, that I’m actually more physically attracted to the real person and all these factors in attraction keep on compounding until I am kind of head over heels. For me, there is no one else I would rather be with. But I also know that if you picked 100 people, they would probably rate the underwear model more attractive on average.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Purple,

    That’s fine. I’m not saying that I would be upset if my gf thought 100 other girls would rate Tom Brady or Taylor whatshisname over me. Frankly, I could care less about that. As I said before, I recognize that Ted would not find my gf ideal because I know he likes full-figured women. It just matters what I think–and what she thinks.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    BTW, lying to you about that would not be an act of cynicism on her part but an act of love. She can love you for myriad reasons other than that she finds you literally the hottest man on the planet. If she knows your … um … inistence on this point and she really loves you and wants to keep you, then lying is a good strategy. Since you can never really know whether she means it or not, but it’s important to you to at least hear it, by lying she gets to keep you and you get to hear what you want to hear.

    I don’t think lying about this would be even possible. She is a woman and she probably have other women friends all it needs for JM to jump her throat is for her friends to mention the theme. “Oh Edward is perfect…” and her girl all has to do is acknowledge this in some form and he will consider it a deal breaker. I think he better needs to find out her girl “love language” see if for her definition of love is the same definition than JM has and then decide. They are both still young is better an early break up where both can find what they are looking for than lying about this. In your case you are already happily married so you found someone in the same wavelength so you cannot see how bad is for certain relationships to go over their natural point and JM already said that he would ended up hating her if he finds out later on when he cannot move on for some reason (Kids, marriage…) I mean if it was something she can actually cover forever it might be a good strategy, but this is sort like a man never looking at porn is very rare to find one so again in this particular case I think truth is better for both in the long run, YMMV.

  • purplesneakers

    . “Oh Edward is perfect…”

    lol. Anacoana- are you into The Hunger Games by any chance?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ana,

    My gf’s never actually read or watched Twilight. But I get your point. FWIW, a character in a book would matter very little to me. I mean, unless she had some fan obsession with one of the Twilight guys. That wouldn’t offend me so much as just turn me off. It’s more the attraction to an actual person (whether it be someone she knows in real life or from tv, film, internet, etc…) that would bother me. And also, as I said, it’s not so much any attraction that would bother me, but an attraction that was greater than her attraction to me.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    lol. Anacoana- are you into The Hunger Games by any chance?

    I don’t like to read about kids dying , or oppressive governments (Hystory books in Latin America are full of that) so no…

  • purplesneakers

    Ah, I would’ve liked your take on the Gale vs. Peeta shipping, but very understandable. You’re from the DR, right?

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    It’s more the attraction to an actual person (whether it be someone she knows in real life or from tv, film, internet, etc…)

    Well books show all sides of a character so is a less shallow connection than a guy you only know in interviews.

    And also, as I said, it’s not so much any attraction that would bother me, but an attraction that was greater than her attraction to me.

    I still think she would be judged harsher if you walked out on her talking with other girls, this kind of conversations can get out of hand really fast and while women think of this as innocent “talk” it looks like men like you and Lokland don’t see it that way and don’t plan to see it any other way, unless you can get away with doing something in retaliation, “you gush about Edward I hit on your best friend at a public party”. That is not a good relationship to have IMO, is better to lay down the cards and move on if needed to, YMMV.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Ah, I would’ve liked your take on the Gale vs. Peeta shipping, but very understandable. You’re from the DR, right?

    Funny enough I’m not much of a shipper I think I wouldn’t ship in HG because the books are more about something else. I didn’t shipped on Harry Potter or Avatar: The last airbender and the shipping wars turned me off. I shipped in Twilight but then the Team Jacob vs Team Edward fights were media manufactured no one seriously though there was a real competition and Team Jacob’s merely felt sorry for him or like him for themselves.
    Yes DR our youngsters were killed and dissipated during Trujillo’s reign and in not in a pretty way, there were no leads and the revolution was a bloodshed. There are no dystopian futures that can capture that, YMMV.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I still think she would be judged harsher if you walked out on her talking with other girls, this kind of conversations can get out of hand really fast and while women think of this as innocent “talk” it looks like men like you and Lokland don’t see it that way and don’t plan to see it any other way, unless you can get away with doing something in retaliation, “you gush about Edward I hit on your best friend at a public party”. That is not a good relationship to have IMO, is better to lay down the cards and move on if needed to, YMMV.

    Huh? I never said I would retaliate. Anyway, my gf usually talks to friends about teaching, though sometimes they’ll discuss books and movies. She’s not really into fan fiction though. She’s more into Margaret Atwood, Barbara Kingsolver, John Irving, etc… I don’t think I’ve ever overheard her talking about other men, except guys her friends were dating. I’ve heard her say things like this guy or that guy is cute, why not give him a chance, blah blah. None of that stuff bothers me.

  • Escoffier

    So your GF saying some other guy is cute is A-OK, but my wife saying some other man is “hottie” is proof that she is bad or that our marriage is a business arrangement?

    Funny how that works.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    You said that the only time she’s ever used the term “hottie” it was about another man. Yes, I’d say that’s bad business. Or sounds like it to me. But of course you know better.

    My gf tells me how much she loves the way I look all the time. Her giving a friend some encouragement by telling her a guy is cute doesn’t bother me in the least.

  • Escoffier

    Yes, that was the only time she ever used the word “hottie.” Now, can you see the flaw in your logic?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    No.

  • Passer_By

    @escoffier
    “However, as an objective phyiscal matter, she knows him to be better looking than you. She also knows that if you knew this you would be devastated and would leave her. In all likelihood she views this as a foible on your part, a strange and uncessary insecurity, but she’s willing to deal with it because she loves you. So, strategy number one is never to bring it up and dodge it when the issue comes up. But if the issue is forced and you insist on a straight answer, then lying to spare your feelings would be an act of love. ”

    You’ve left out the other option – he was more physically attractive to look at when she first met him, but she now finds me more attractive because he had a pathetic erection and premature ejaculation problem whilst I am a pagan love god who gives her screaming orgasms with his divine rod of justice. Or some lesser version of that. Many things go into “attraction”, especially for women.

    Nonetheless, I find it a little funny that Jesus can presume to judge those with successful 30 year marriages while he has not had a successful long-term relationship, so far as I can tell. It’s sort of like certain know it all young women who have never had kids judging the pragmatic parenting approaches of women who are forced to deal with the reality of kids. He is in a period of his current relationship where, undoubtedly, both of them only think of their beloved. That’s how it works. In a much longer relationship, both parties will undoubtedly find other people more attractive at a primal level from time to time (that’s the unfortunate thing about being animals with frontal lobes). In other words – the physical urge to fuck that person will be stronger than that for your spouse or LTR partner. In that sense, they are “hotter”. But love and commitment (or, in many cases, practical reality as well) causes them to let that pass – and, for most of us, it will if we do the right thing. It doesn’t mean you don’t love your spouse or LTR partner. It means the sensations and hormones associated with “new love” don’t go on forever and, being animals with evolved mating urges designed to favor variety (men) or change (men and women), new meat will often look “hotter”.

    Mahoney, you seem to be looking for the relationship equivalent of a unicorn – I’d suggest that you not set yourself up for perpetual disappointment.

  • Escoffier

    Really?

    OK, here goes. “Hottie” is not the only word to express the concept if phyisical attractiveness. There are, literally, dozens of synonyms. So, just because I had never heard her use the specific word “hottie” does not mean or imply that I had never heard her use another synonym for “phyiscially attractive.” I also said nothing about the frequency or intensity of such usage, nor about whom it was said.

    Get it now?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Escoffier,

    As I said, I was judging the story as told, not your actual wife. If I were with someone who only used “adult” expressions to convey her attraction to me and then after 15 yrs, I heard her fawning like a schoolgirl over another man, that would raise alarm bells for me.

    But of course you know your marriage much better than me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Passer by,

    Mahoney, you seem to be looking for the relationship equivalent of a unicorn – I’d suggest that you not set yourself up for perpetual disappointment.

    I appreciate the advice, but I’m good.

  • Mike C

    Ehhh……this whole discussion is taking place between two extremes. Again, it is all a matter of degree.

    I don’t mind my GF objectively describing a guy as hot or good-looking. I really don’t even care if she objectively thinks a guy is better looking than me. I know I am good looking, but I also know there are plenty of guys better looking than me. I just don’t need to hear about it, and I’m not looking for trouble so I am not going to open up a can of worms by questioning her on whether she thinks guy X is objectively better looking than me. I don’t need to know if she honestly, objectively thinks Hugh Jackman is better looking than me. She may very well think that. Ironically, it is really women who go down that path more often….”do you think so and so is prettier than me” which than sets up a difficult shit test where the correct answer is the non-answer to the comparison and reassure her of her attractiveness to you.

    Now if she is “swooning” for a guy or fainting in some guy’s presence, now we’ve got a problem. It suggests some deeper connection or fantasy about that man. It would be the equivalent of me starting to drool in the presence of a perfect 10 Playboy model as I literally imagine fucking her with my GF standing right there. That would be seriously messed up. And this all gets back to the main point of this post. There is nothing wrong with some mild banter with another attractive woman in conversation which could be interpreted as flirting…now if it escalates to very sexually suggestive I agree that is problematic and disrespectful and the exact equivalent over gushing over a guy (because of the display versus select difference).

    In my view, I see both JM’s and Escoffier’s POV. I think JM is entitled to want what he wants out of his relationship partner even though I think it is unrealistic, but I also agree that I would NEVER want to be some woman’s “compromise” or consolation prize (“ehhhhh….he’ll do”).

    I’ll close with this thought. The more self-evidently attractive a man is, the less he needs to go out of his way to ever “demonstrate” his options to his SO. It will happen randomly during the course of life as women comment to each other about the men in their lives. The less superficially attractive a man is, the more he might need to be calibrated to any diminishing attraction and have to “juice it” from time to time. Is that “manipulative”? Yes, but much of life and communication is really just “manipulation” of a sort. The point is it is of utmost importance in this time that a man stay aware of any slipping attraction and take corrective action before it is too late. If he knows the attraction is solid, then any excessive flirting, anxiety production is simply stupid and counterproductive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      The more self-evidently attractive a man is, the less he needs to go out of his way to ever “demonstrate” his options to his SO.

      Interesting thought – this might be right. I know research sh