The Sad Reality of Using Anxiety to Generate Attraction

Very good advice. I remember reading back in the day that Sean Connery’s wife no. 2 went with him EVERYWHERE and wouldn’t let any women get close to him. She knew how devastatingly attractive he was to other women and wasn’t taking any chances. I’ve no idea if he would have cheated and they are still married so it must have worked, but how exhausting. No way I would want to live like that.

There is a happy medium, though, is there not? A man doesn’t need to actively flirt, but I’m thinking he would be advised not to hide it if other women express attraction to him. In the past, if that happened with me – even though I didn’t do anything to encourage it or reciprocate, I would have never told my wife for fear of making her feel insecure or jealous. I’m thinking that was a mistake – working it in to conversation somehow might have gotten her all hot and lathered up.

This post is written only to address the females interest, and what’s important to the woman.

No ability or attempt to understand the reason for this behavior nor why it is often effective.

The hamster is running strong today.

My only opinon is that the number of women who can get men who are hot enough to flirt with other women on a regular basis are miniscule.

Worry about the normal people more.

As for flirting in a relationship, I’m split on the issue. As a guy its a really, really good thing.

Similar situation to deti; two girls before my fiance. In a club and some random kissed me quickly. Pushed her away and had my world rocked that night better than any other with the current girl. Effective, very.

As for the effects long-term, if shes gonna leave you cause you don’t flirt with every set of tits that walks by just go home fuck her and tell her you need to see other people.

Susan, I think you’re running the risk of looking at the drugs used in chemo, seeing that they’re toxic, and declaring they are uniformly bad for the human body. And yet, despite their admitted toxicity, they can have some distinct utility when an individual is being treated for cancer. Now, your father would appear to have instilled a surfeit of dread in your mother, but then, she clearly had no need of it. Since most PUA tactics are not designed for LTRs, they usually need to be modified and applied only as required in them. It should be fairly apparent that a woman who is uncertain by virtue of an occasional dose of dread is not a bored one prone to seeking an EPL divorce.

Not all women need it. Some understand their husbands have options, some are perfectly content within the relationship as it is. But there are plenty of unhealthy relationships that could very well benefit from a round or two of relationship chemo.

I am highly against instilling dread in the sense that Roissy preached. I am also against a man actively and purposefully and blatantly flirting strongly with other women in front of his wife. That is unless the relationship is in full crisis and the man must really fight to regain her interest. I am, however, not against the type of generic general flirting that I feel is becoming part of my personality even when in a marriage. That would draw more interest than being clearly asexual but it would not draw the same type of interest as when I really flirt go get things going with a woman and have the intent of something actually happening. It is more about haveing a generally cocky funny attitude and being teasing with people all arround. It would be much the same with people I did not find sexually appealing.

I also have huge problems bying that women will actually honour their part of an understanding not to flirt with other people or to create jealousy. Not all women are the same. Some will frequently, blatantly and conciously flirt with others to create jealousy. Others will only do it sometimes and some very rarly but if you ask me how many women will do it during the course of a marriage I would say 95%+. This is such a core part of girl game and is one thing I saw women doing all the time even before taking the red pill. Even then while I was still very naive about women my observation was that creating jealousy was just something that women did. I don`t, at all, buy that it is only a matter of selection bias when PUAs regard inspiring jealousy in her man as being such an ingrained part of womens natural girl game that it is naive to think you can find a woman who never will. My observation is that all sorts of good girls will do this. I have a lot of faith that I can find a very good woman that will behave well in a relationship but I will never believe that I will find one that will not try to make me jealous.

@Susan

It’s one thing to know that your attractive husband would probably have some takers if you were hit by a bus. It’s another to watch him flirt at a gathering and wonder what’s in his head when he screws you that night.

Women don’t like doubt of that kind.

Susan, I suppose from the Game perspective, giving women what they “like” seems a sure way towards disaster, so this becomes less important. Yes, women don’t “like” the insecurity of thinking about their men with other women (although fantasizing about being with celebrities or fictional characters is apparently just okey-dokey for ladies). That doesn’t mean it isn’t good for them or the relationship, if done well. I love my wife dearly, and I know she doesn’t like even a hint of “doubt”. But my Blue Pill years fed her plenty of “he loves me without any doubt” times that were pure hell for me. When a wife has no doubt, she has no motivation for keeping her own Game sharp. When she knows that Hubby is always going to be there, at a deep psychological level, he stops becoming a partner and starts becoming an appliance.

I get that women don’t like Dread and doubt. We don’t like flirting, sex strikes or being taken for granted. Only in a marriage where the latter was an issue would the former be a proper response. And only after communicating “Hey, you aren’t paying me enough attention and I’m about to throw a hissy fit” and not getting a response would it even be advisable to suggest.

And please don’t tell me that most of the wives in hypergamy mode aren’t filling their own heads with doubts about their husbands. “He’s the only one for me . . . until a better one comes along” has been the secret mantra of some women since adolescence, and even if they fake it well for years when the opportunity arises, their doubts get hamster-spun into glaring and obvious reasons why He Was All Wrong From The Start.

@charm
“What I dont get is why you need for other women to find him attractive as well?”

Attraction is not a conscious choice. This preselection works on nearly all women (I’ll allow for some outliers) at some level deep in their hindbrains, and is very powerful.

Susan, your post, and some of your subsequent responses, are dripping with insecurity. For example, the bit about having to check your husband’s phone. Wow. So very insecure. Even worse, in the original post, there’s the emotionally riven tone in describing your mother & father’s relationship–that’s at the heart of it anyway.

For women, the utmost in self-confidence is for a women to know you have such a lock on your man’s heart and loins, that any flirting that a woman observes towards or by her man is merely entertaining, and possibly validating. But women of that type of self confidence need no validation.

But I do agree that men do need to keep things respectful in the relationship; there’s no need (in a healthy relationship) for a man to continually throw his attractiveness to other women in his partner’s face. That’s just a bit uncouth.

The key, as Deti’s example so beautifully illustrates, is that the man’s return-fire (non)-flirting must be so subtle as to be plausibly deniable. He wasn’t flirting… he was just trying to see what else was in the store. It’s simply an ability and willingness to engage in friendly, harmless and nonsexual banter. Sexual vibes, innuendoes, and eye-fucking is where the line gets crossed. I dare say that a man must walk right up to that line in order to define it.

Did you parents stay together, like Bill and Hillary? If so, that undercuts the whole point of your post. You’re missing the obvious” this concept works.

I’ll reserve judgement until I hear whether your folks stayed together. If so, this falls under the category of “Don’t listen to what women say, watch what they do.”

Susan, I’m willing to concede that men should not use this trick to “juice” their relationship, but it should also be pointed out that women should also be expected to keep their hypergamy reined in when they’re in a monogamous relationship, especially (and ESPECIALLY!) a marriage. Men and women, in a marriage, should love each other to the point that they both agree that divorce (for reasons other than marital unfaithfulness, aka adultery) is not only immoral but also personally unthinkable.

Just as women should not use divorce as a threat, so men likewise should not use their extramarital charm as a weapon.

How’s this for a thought experiment? What if we outlawed no-faults divorce… would the rate of male extramarital flirting go up or down? I’d imagine down, unless women found some other way to weaponize their side of the marriage (e.g. withdrawing sex).

The bottom line is: in a marriage, a woman should give herself fully to her man, and the man ought to take care of her likewise. That means women, don’t deny your husbands sex. Men, don’t get bored and settle into simply going through the motions of the relationship (do keep in mind that a woman who gladly gives herself sexually to her man drastically decreases the risk he will go through the motions).

Dread and aloofness as tactics would backfire in my marriage. There’s enough misery in the outside world. Why invite it into your home?

Susan, you can be damn sure that if a woman f#cks with me, that I will withdraw emotionally from her, that I will flirt outrageously with other women, that I will disappear whenever I please, that I will wreck the relationship. I’ve done it before, and I will do it again.

I’m so glad you made this entry. I read something like this over at Roissy and was like “Are you kidding me?”

May I say how much I love this blog…and even the comments

” This kind of behavior should be a deal breaker. If your boyfriend does it once, let him know how it makes you feel. If he does it again, get the hell out. If your husband suddenly starts flirting with other women, address it immediately. Figure out where his fear and insecurity lies, and rush to reassure him in every way you can. This dynamic is a relationship destroyer, and it’s toxic for children. Don’t enable it. ” …….”If he’s employing the second strategy, he is operating from a mindset of lack, or scarcity.

Exactly! Actually either way he is insecure. Cads are either lacking in self esteem or narcissists either way its insecurity. Know this and use this – if he is just running scared and operating from a position of lack – call him on it – make him own his insecurity and tell him that this is not an acceptable way to deal with it. If he is a CAD do like wise – a cad will do it a second time to see if you can get away with it. Second time it is a good bye!

de-lurking to share a little. This post brought to mind a book I recently gleaned insight from. It’s called “Attached- the new science of adult attachment”. A hefty portion focuses on an “anxious/avoidant” casting in relationships, wherein one partner is anxious (preoccupied with the relationship and worried about the partner’s ability to love them back) and one is avoidant (equates intimacy with loss of independence and constantly tries to minimize closeness). It’s a jacked up dynamic that lots of people fall into! As of late I’m usually the anxious one… though I played avoidant through much of my sluttiest days (which were plentiful… I’m pretty much the poster girl for hookingupdumb).

an npr inverview with the authors is here if: http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail4790.html

@ Susan, Mike C, Ironwood etc.

I like the comparison of jealousy/dread to chemo, it hurts a lot of stuff but its like the last resort.

I’m thinking before it ever gets that far just a simple well said “drop it” or something similar would be more than adequate.

Its a way of removing exclussivity (dread, or we should hope) without promoting jealousy.

I find that works far better for me than flirting around which I don’t do anymore. Jealousy is a poison and a cure and the difference between the dose that cures and the dose that kills is very small.

@ Susan

I knew a guy like your father once, old man thinks he’s gods gift to women. If I hadn’t been serving him coffee I would’ve smashed the pot over his head.

Rather than instilling dread via flirting with other women, how about stating that you know your own value and won’t tolerate it?

Ehhhh…don’t want to debate this point too much, but direct, overt communication will often fail. The most effective route is always going to be some type of indirect subcommunication. You have to make your point without saying it. Not to mention in this specific example, a guy simply can’t verbalize “I have options”. That just seems try hard. It has to be demonstrated. FWIW, I’ve never made a pass or anything like that….I’ve been in situations where I’ve had friendly banter with her co-workers if we were out, and there were a few cases where one or two got a bit grabby or huggy with me but nothing ever egregious. What exactly crosses the line? That will probably vary from girl to girl and her own level of security.

A man who flirts with other women to prove his value in his wife’s eyes is a man of low value. It’s a massive DLV, and that’s the irony. The true alpha has the self-discipline and honor to be gracious, but not flirtatious. His wife is well aware of his attractiveness to others, and grateful that he does not exploit it to make her anxious.

And this is why I LOVE LOVE LOVE Munson! He’s a natural alpha of good character. Don’t see too many of those around anymore.

You’re on fire today, SW. Cosigned!

And I would assume that Munch is a relatively low count guy as well-you know, the sort we aren’t supposed to find attractive.

The good news was, once I made that choice, my sex drive came right back. Crisis averted.

Yeah, it does come back if you let it. I was terrified of sex after the forceps birth of my older son, but we slowly eased back into it. It was fine.

Ha! Spoken like a woman who has not yet had her first baby!

Heh I know change will change after the baby is born. I meant as off now.

@SayWhaat
If good guys got laid as often and as enthusiastically as bad boys things would be totally different. Make us proud. Changing the SMP one bang at the time! You go girrrrl!!!

Ehhhh…don’t want to debate this point too much, but direct, overt communication will often fail. The most effective route is always going to be some type of indirect subcommunication.

You have to make your point without saying it. Not to mention in this specific example, a guy simply can’t verbalize “I have options”. That just seems try hard. It has to be demonstrated.

@Mike C..can’t you do both? Tell what the problem is and why, then demonstrate the natural consequence that happens as a result of the offending action?

Over the course our lengthy time together, both in dating and our marriage, I have most appreciated and respected my husband when he has directly communicated what he expects from me. He set this tone early in our relationship. “I think it’s rude when you interrupt me when I’m talking.” (I come from a family that can be rather verbose—we talk non-stop and cross-talk with each other, both men and women. It never occurred to me that it was rude behavior.) I appreciated that he expressed how he felt about it, and I adjusted my behavior for him.

Throughout our years, he’s continued to let me know, very clearly with words, why and when he has felt disrespected. (It has happened rarely, and we can clear it up immediately.)

He was the first guy I dated that did this effectively, and it was very attractive to me.

Susan, you should poll the MBTI types of the women that post regularly here. I wouldn’t be too surprise if all of us had intuition in common.

Maybe we should point out our single girls and boys to a dating site that could help them sort out some of this. http://www.typetango.com/

Appreciate all that, Charm. If it makes you feel any better, a lot of us menfolk develop pretty thick skin about the whole process. Helps to vent anonymously online here and there, but for the most part, we’re dealing with it as well as can be expected.

Now I just have to find one of those 10% Introspective/Intuitive or whatever-it-is types. Would have to be better than the date last week I cut short after she spent 20 minutes telling me why Rick Santorum is a misogynist just because she saw a bumper sticker (all I wanted was some coffee and light conversation). At least I can pat myself on the back for approaching more often.

@ Susan

I’m really just trying to stick with the established terminology. “Dread” probably is the wrong word for the concept – or at least, it establishes a pretty bad frame. But “fear of loss” definitely falls under the idea of “dread,” and part of the tactic really is about creating that fear for fun and profit. I just don’t want to mince words about it – coming up with nice-sounding words for a rough concept is the first step to normalizing it. I’m just not willing to let it fall out of the toolbox just yet, because it’s a useful tool for countering a lot of female mind games.

On the other hand, “dread” is definitely the right word for how a red-pill man could see any number of manosphere hot-button issues (from the big ones like abortion, false rape accusations, and nuclear divorce all the way down to smaller ones like a bad rejection or slander from a slut). Even if you can completely separate damage from the fear of those things from the damage done by the actual events, it’s still a pretty damaging fear. Definitely not a healthy one. But someone, somewhere thought it was a good idea to give women that power, possibly to address an existing problem, and probably encouraged by short-term results (for instance, the first no-fault divorces were probably okay even by sane standards, and it took a while to become the evil it is today).

Not a fan of doing one wrong to counter another, but I’m not wholly convinced it’s wrong. Just because most women want it (however much they protest) doesn’t make it right – but if creating dread is actually a necessary skill for dealing with most women, we’re left with either say “most women are not worthy of a relationship,” or “the ability to selectively manipulate your girlfriend’s fear of loss for fun and profit is occasionally necessary, and therefore acceptable.” That just leaves the question of whether it is not only useful, but necessary.

Or I can just stick with the plan to find a cute, single INTJ (about 4% of the population) and dodge the question completely.

Reading through the rest of the comments now and this was spot on…

“What Susans husband said to her about sex would have been all I needed to get my shit together. I’d bet a fair portion of the other girls on here would probably agree. But I have to admit most women probably would not have. They would have taken it as some personal slight against them and raised hell over it. They would have tried to ruin your life for you daring to make a request of them in a relationship. In this case, men are thus forced to use the backdoor method of flirting with other women to “regain her interest”. And thats what gets me. Its a damn shame. You can tell a woman not to take you for granted because she will lose you and she probably wont respond until you’ve got one foot out the door and she feels that ‘dread’. ”

My wife took it as a major slight and was greatly offended.

@ Charm at 148,

Are we related?
You have said exactly what I wanted to say.
Auntie Susan is right, but unfortunately her advice cannot be applied to the current situation, which is admittedly messed up.

One can’t make this stuff up. Things are as is, and the smart woman today needs to be thinking like you (and me).

Totally counterintuitive, but there we are…

OTC (at 150) and Rob (at 71) are my heroes for this post
Like Charm, I only learned about my own female tendencies from the Manosphere. It has helped immensely. Not to say I am a fan of the more seedy aspects of PUA.
But what these two men and Charm are saying is the absolute truth.
Feminism upset the cart of the SMP 50 years ago, and we are all having to pick up the pieces and learn stuff our parents would never have anticipated.
Bravo, lady and gentlemen

The problem is that this works. In the cases Sue’s talking about, the men took the principle too far, humiliating their mates rather than simply creating doubt. Subtlety is required if you’re going to use it. Not that I advocate using it–it’s Dark Triad stuff. The way I see it, if you have to resort to manipulation to keep a woman interested, the relationships not worth it.

Like most game tactics, even when they’re sleazy, they contain a kernel of truth. In this case, the truth is that women want men that other women want. That does not mean, as some gamers seem to think, that women want men who want other women. Men who want other women humiliate their SO’s.

Susan,

I agree with the premise of your post, but I’ll admit that I had to learn this through my own trial and error. I always instinctively knew that flirting with other women in the presense of someone I was seeing was a sure fire path to keeping a girl glued, but it was also a path to insecurity, unnecessary conversations and arguments. I used to regularly do this, never crossing the actual line, but making it clearly evident that I can get others if I choose. I also dated a couple girls who played this game back, but since I never viewed those girls at potential LTRs it always blew up in their face as I didn’t genuinely care about their actions. The fact that I didn’t care made them CRAZY and even more jealous, as if they used the final card up their sleeve and were helpless.

Now, I would say that I’ve more so internalized this attitude and I don’t have the need to overtly display it. I’ve done it without thinking and much more innocently once or twice in front of my current gf (and yes, she got upset), but I’ve been much much better about it. Even if I don’t show it, I know and she knows what my SMV is worth, and that instills a good attitude on both ends without hurt feelings or arguments.

J – he sounds like a real scumbag. I have to wonder though, did he only start acting this way AFTER they got married? I would venture to guess no, which means she did a pretty poor job of vetting him out before hand. If so, then something is either terribly wrong with the marriage, or something is terribly wrong with him.

I will never understand how a woman can marry a guy, and THEN notice his bad behavior, as if it never occurred before the wedding. Most men I know that act this way, have ALWAYS acted this way. How can any woman claim surprise when he STILL acts that way after getting married?

Apparently INFP is the exact antithesis of the most common MBTI for men (ESTJ).

You know why this works? And why it’s a good idea for men?

Women LOVE drama.

If you don’t give it to them, they will seek it elsewhere. I bet through all tears, your mom stayed with your dad, didn’t she?

JM #184

LMAO. There’s a part of me that thinks DH really should have, even though I’m not a big proponent of “Let’s you and him fight.” I wouldn’t want DH to get hurt or arrested over this sort of BS, though I’m pretty sure DH could have won this battle of middle-aged men.

The really fascinating thing about this guy is his MO of pulling his sh*t in such a way that his victims are reluctant to make a scene. He’s a master at setting the victim up to embarass themselves, hurt his wife or appear to be over-reacting. He had been dogging me for months before my mom’s death. While I stopped going to his home, I never had the courage to confront him directly because he would do this crap in an ambiguous fashion in front of his wife–brushing against me or other women “accidentally” or saying things that could be taken as suggestive–or not. She’d laugh this stuff off out of embarassment, and the other woman would look like a jerk if she said something. Even my husband was not quite sure at first what he saw when it was going on two feet away from him. He asked, “Was that what I thnk it was?” I replied that it was. He responded, “WTF. Should I hit him or something? It’s a wake for God’s sake.” I said, “Yep, that’s the MO. He relies on the decency of others to protect himself. Leave it alone.”

Some examples: I ran into him in a buffet line after I stopped visiting my friend at her home. He mentions, in the midst of the crowd, that I don’t come over any more. I look at him and say, “Hmm, what you do know about that?” It was the most I felt I could say without making a scene. Or, this. A mutual friend had walked over to this couple’s home. As she was getting ready to leave, it started to pour. The husband offers the woman a ride home. She’s uneasy but can’t think of a way to refuse the ride in front of the wife. The husband drives the woman home, tellling her how much he likes her and asking if there is anything he can do for her. He gives her his business card. Luckily, when I did finally confront the wife, the second friend produced that card. Otherwise, I might have been blamed for tempting him. He was a genius at setting this stuff up.

Ted #192

That IS the manosphere wisdom on this subject. Certainly, as men age and die, the number of available men is greater than the number of available women. OTOH, I’ve seen a lot of divorced men who are really bad bets.

A friend of mine is in the process of divorcing a prominent surgeon and (now diagnosed) NPD victim. He was genuinely emotionally abusive for years and years. She left, he promised to change, she took him back, he got crazier, and she left again. Less than a month later, he found a divorcee with kids who was thrilled to have found a doctor. She is still busy trying to pick up the pieces. She gets asked out, but she just isn’t ready to deal with things. She’s georgeous. She’ll find someone when she’s ready.

On paper, it looks like he’s the winner here, but I don’t think so. Either this new gal will figure him out eventually and leave, or he will have found the sort of golddigger who can tolerate/manipulate a narcissist. (He hired the best attorney in the city, got pissed and told him that “doctor trumps lawyer.”) He’ll never be happy or make anyone else happy. Sometimes, the odds are good, but the goods are odd.

I do agree though that if people can fix a relationship they should. It’s tough out there.

Don’t know if this has been mentioned yet, but the original Roissy/Heartiste post that introduced the “dread” frame offered it only as an alternative to the preferred scenario:

Meet your soulmate

If you are extremely lucky enough to cross paths with your soulmate this is the easiest way to live the kind of romantic bliss that Hollywood movies exalt. A soulmate connection is the Golden Ticket to happiness and a dreamlike existence.

Roissy puts the probability of this scenario at 1% to 2%.

Realistically, there is a continuum between good relationships built on trust and horrible relationships in which vigilant game-playing is required just to keep the thing standing.

It’s the rare man who would find himself on the good side of this spectrum and still want to expend energy deploying stratagems. So if a dude is dropping dread bombs on you, there’s a good chance that he doesn’t see you as his potential soulmate.

J – I am aware that there are plenty of totally shitty guys out there, just as there are plenty of shitty women. And I would never look down or think badly of a woman that leaves an abusive husband. Any man that abuses his wife is NOT keeping his end of the deal, and that means she is free to assume the deal is off, and act accordingly.

But, overall, I think my statement holds true. I was truly amazed that at 39 years old, with two children living with me, and being in bad physical shape (although MUCH better than I was prior) any woman would even look my way, let alone want to hitch their wagon to me. But, six months (give or take a little) after my separation I found myself dating a woman that was seriously into me. I saw myself has having far too much baggage to be a good choice, and it turns out what I saw as baggage she saw as proof that I had my shit together, and could handle myself. I felt like I was barely holding on some days, but it seems that my idea of barely holding on translates to safe and secure for many folks. I guess that isn’t so surprising when I consider how much I focus on things like security and comfort. MY threshold for concern is a hair trigger compared to most people, so it makes sense that MY idea of security is FAR more than most people would deem necessary.

At any rate, my point is many men that find themselves single again after years of marriage, if they have the chance to find out for themselves, will be shocked and at least mildly pleased to find out they have options. LOTS of options. Woman in the same position have lots of options too, but most of them are for sex and no more. If they want the whole deal, they may very well find themselves on the “business” end of the market gun.

and I won’t lie. Now that I know exactly what it is I have to offer, if I ever find myself single again, I’m going to be very specific about what I want, and at least a bit demanding about getting it. I’m not perfect, but the truth is I’m in a pretty good position in terms of what I have to offer. Perhaps my SO was smart enough to realize this on her own, and if so she lucked out. Because, if I had to do it over, I wouldn’t be so easy to snag.

I’m not saying I’m unhappy at all with her! I’m just saying that had I known then what I know now, I wouldn’t have made it so easy on her.

Susan – “The reason is that these views are gaining traction. Game has gone mainstream, and some of the more negative aspects are the ones being adopted quickly. It’s so much easier to take the “dark” shortcut than to the real inner work.”

I’m sorry. I simply can’t resist saying: I told you so!

And furthermore, I can’t blame one single man for taking this route if it works. If women don’t like it, they need to stop rewarding the behavior, plain and simple. And, that doesn’t mean bitch and complain that men are doing it, that means stop putting out for men that act this way. I promise you, the instant men playing dark game stop getting laid, is the same instant dark game will be put into retirement.

Ted,

I can’t blame one single man for taking this route if it works. If women don’t like it, they need to stop rewarding the behavior, plain and simple.

I agree that women need to stop rewarding behavior they don’t men to keep exhibiting. But I’m not sure it’s fair to put all the onus on the women. Men should behave honorably because it’s the right thing to do, not because it’s what gets them pussy. I’m sure that as long as there are women of low character who reward bad behavior, there will be men willing to indulge, but let’s not give them a free pass. Guys who run dark game are assholes, whether or not it gets them laid.

I don’t blame people for choosing the dark path. I think most young people dabble in a bit of darkness. Even my husband was manipulative before he became more spiritually aware.

Some darkness can be a catalyst toward good. Jesus Mahoney did the casual fling thing and realized it wasn’t for him. Other times people get mired in it, because they get obsessed by the temporary highs from using dark tactics.

I would agree with Charm that “most women” are not great, but really, most men are not too great either. I would have rather remained single than be with a dark type.

What Susan said: “I’ll write for the sliver of humanity that doesn’t wallow at that level” is brilliant. Really, that’s the best we can do here. Choose smartly and make decisions for our individual selves. That sliver of light will seem blindingly bright in the sea of darkness, but that is also the point.

What Susan said: “I’ll write for the sliver of humanity that doesn’t wallow at that level” is brilliant. Really, that’s the best we can do here. Choose smartly and make decisions for our individual selves. That sliver of light will seem blindingly bright in the sea of darkness, but that is also the point.

Very well said. Did you have the u/s yet?

“Ive fucked a lot more men than you think”
_______
A lot of women could claim that.

Meh, I’d say that there are far less lying sluts than you seem to think. They’re out there, but I don’t know that they’re the norm.

Ted D:

Funny how little we knew and how much we learned. It never occurred to me that some women just wanted a fling for a few weeks or months. Never occurred to me a woman might just want to bang, and that I happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right friend and I didn’t screw it up.

Looking back, things like preselection; social proof; cocky-funny; negging, peacocking, and displays of confidence were operating but we had no idea they were. I didn’t know any slut tells and didn’t understand hypergamy at all other than it applied only in marriage (which I don’t agree with, BTW. I think women always see men through hypergamous lenses and are always comparing their men to other men).

I truly believe in this: A woman will lose attraction for her husband if she doesn’t believe that he is actively desired by other women. This is the law of competition. Do you compete with other girls?

-Frizey

Depends I have a friend that has been neglecting her husband for ten years now …. YMMV.

Actually, I wouldn’t red flag that guy, Ana. That relationship has been dead for a long time. I can see how he’d have been over it a long time ago.

A male friend of mine is divorcing a diagnosed crazy after a 30 year marriage. She kicked him out. He was depressed at firest, but he bouncd back in about 3 weeks. It didn’t negatively affect my opinion of him because I knew her and what a relief not dealing with her issues on a daily basis was for him.

A man should not have to envoke jealously in his woman to keep her on her toes. A man who has to do that lacks creativity, cunning, and inventivness.
Most women WANT security in their lives. That goes for financial, emotional and relationship. The trick is to be the man she needs, every day, so that she doesnt lose her desire to stick around. That need is going to be different for different women. A smart man figures that out and adjusts. Some women need to be led, in life, in decisions, in the bedroom. Some women do not need the be led as much. All women want to know they are being heard (not just listened to), and respected. Think of your relationship as the lines on a freeway its ok to occationally bounce from one side or the other without crossing the lines. An occational correction in steering is all it normally takes (communication) to keep your ride running stright and smooth.

“ignoring the girl he likes, hitting on her BFF in front of her, negging her like crazy (and badly), trying to rack up some ONSs just to get to a critical mass of social proof,”

Eh. That isn’t dark game. That’s oat-sowing at best, douchebaggery at worst.

I think dark game is truly sociopathic shit. Dark game is openly cheating and lying about it. Or cheating and excusing it when caught. Or cheating and letting yourself get caught just to see how much you can get away with. Or deep machiavellian manipulation, treating your woman like a marionette with you pulling her strings. Or manipulating her into sexual conduct like threesomes, BDSM, etc. when she clearly doesn’t want to. Or threatening her with a breakup every time she doesn’t do what you want. Or hatef**king a ONS.

Men should behave honorably because it’s the right thing to do, not because it’s what gets them pussy.

We should, but without properly setting up the social system, all it will accomplish is creating a carousel that rewards the ones who break the rules. Honor in a den of thieves is wonderful in stories, less so in reality. Gotta fix the system first – and one of the most important steps for fixing it is to get girls to stop rewarding the guys who lack good morals.

Really, what system is in place to punish guys who don’t live honorably just because they should? The worst they have to deal with now is that the 10% of Intuitive women don’t like them, and that some small fraction of honorable beta men won’t like them (most betas will instead strive to learn from them). Not a terribly compelling consequence.

Personally, I’ve made the honorable choice most of the time in my life, and will probably continue to do so, but it’s only served to convince me that no good deed goes unpunished. Show me a world where the good and honorable types actually have a major influence on the social consequences of dishonor (i.e., not modern-day America); until then, I can’t blame any guy who just stoops to doing what works.

It’s so much easier to take the “dark” shortcut than to do the real inner work.

Gotta go with Deti on this one. I’ve tried to pull off dark game and I cannot keep it going. I don’t even like the concept – it works, if you can hack it, at least in the short term, but it’s not me. And I’m hardly special. Most beta guys have a hard time with dark game. If we could do it easily, you’d think we would have started doing it naturally the fourth or fifth time being the boring nice guy failed us (if for no other reason than annoyance).

You’ll know it’s “mainstream” when women have been hurt enough, they actually start valuing betas en masse again, like Ana describes in DR. I don’t think we are even remotely close to that point yet.

Seconded, but with the caveat that women will always be most attracted in the most primal way to alphas. That they “value” betas is a sign of pragmatism, not of a profound shift in their desires. Call me crazy, but I don’t want to be loved just because I’m the first guy not to treat her like dirt; I want her to have started out with the goal of being treated well. Obviously I’m still going to work on improving all the good alpha traits as well, for very pragmatic reasons – if you’re banking on her valuing beta traits, then you’ve only got her loyalty for as long as she values reliability and decency over excitement. Would rather hedge my bets.

Deti – ““And for what it’s worth, “honor” is an alpha, not a beta, trait.”

Not in this SMP. If you had said honor used to be an alpha trait, I would have agreed.”

BINGO! That is 100% true. There is little to no incentive for anyone to act with honor and loyalty in most cases these days. I agree with JM that being “honorable” because it works is disengenuous, but at the heart of it all, humans are inherently selfish. As the idealist I am, I would LOVE to believe honorable people are that way because it is right, but the truth is, most of them are probably only honorable because:
1. it works for them
2. they are afraid of the consequences of NOT being honorable.

There is no compelling reason in this day and age to use “right” as a reason to do anything. Morality is so objective these days that I bet it would be damn difficult to get 10 people to agree on if something was right or wrong. In such an environment, how can you honestly expect anyone to put others interests before their own? Hell, I instinctively WANT to do it, and in many cases I prevent myself from doing so BECAUSE I know it will be repaid with shit. I’ve learned to NOT be as honorable, because in many cases it is nothing short of a hindrance when dealing with people that have absolutely no concept of the word.

I agree that the percentage of men who can easily run dark game is not a lot. For one thing, it is contrary to deeply inborn male instincts towards group/gang formation and inter-personal loyalty. Stick with your buddies and all that. And isn’t a GF/LTR like a buddy? That is the default male attitude and getting to the place of realizing that just how differently men and women experience the world – and that treating women as if they were men=FAIL — is a long journey.
However, I fore-see an avalanche of increased awareness about Gamology. I mean, this can only go one way. The moms and W. Knighters might hate on game wisdom to their hearts content but it will not change anything about the hard-wired circuits in their daughters hind-brains. Given circumstances that allow those instincts a chance at free expression (the pill, economic independence, no slut shame-ing, etc.) successful gamers will swim in a poon ocean and the rest will have to watch from the side-lines. At least it will definitely look like that. And when guys hear game wisdom and notice that it explains all of this more or less perfectly they may not go all the way over to the Dark Side but they sure as hell won’t pedestalize anything about the female gender ever again.
There is no stopping this because it reflects reality. There is never going to be much real world evidence against the tenets of Game. In the old days they were merely kept hidden by layers of factors that we have spent the last 50 years dismantling.
So here we are.

JM – “Meh, I’d rather maintain my integrity.”

My work around for this is to try to minimize my interactions with people that aren’t honorable. When that can’t be helped, I pretty much assume no one has honor and go from there.

Always the half glass empty guy.

I’m not saying turn the other cheek and all that. If someone crosses my boundaries, then I’m going to act. Honor just means acting in accord with your principles. If your principles say to bitch slap anybody who messes with you, then go for it.

As you said, morality is subjective.

Speaking of calming down, I’m still at the hospital, but the ultrasound went well! Healthy baby, normal heartbeat, good growth and we got to see the little baby squirming around on the screen. Definitely big sigh of relief.

Awesome news, Hope!

@sandy, Susan, et al

No offense, but this debate strikes me as sort of silly.

Sandy: Looking good is not the same as actively flirting and appearing to pursue other people.

Susan, and others: If the guy is appearing to pursue others so as to make her feel humiliated (i.e., others are wondering how she puts up with it), it’s obviously too much. If he is just being charming enough to elicit a certain amount of female admiration and, therefore, produce the subconscious tingle in his SO, then all should be good. He has to find the balance so as not to make his SO feel disrespected or humiliated. Doesn’t seem that complicated.

And, women, same goes for you. Don’t flirt to the extent your man feels disrespected or that his status will be lowered (whether in your eyes or anyone else’s eyes) by virtue of what of you’re doing. He won’t ever forget, and you deserve whatever you get.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

Now, back to my wine, dammit. Sheesh!

Susan

A beautiful woman (which is not what you described, IMO) will of course be noticed by other men. What’s important is how she deals with that. Is she an attention whore, or does she use her beauty to make her husband proud?

I generally find this is very true. Simply depends on the health of your relationship and the level of trust vs. insecurity.

I loved heading out with my exwife to events and functions that forced us to dress up a bit. She could turn heads and got lots of attention. She’d smile, talk, interact – she was the extrovert of our union. I always had complete trust in her wrt to fidelity and never kept her on a leash (back when i was still obviously displaying alpha behavior). I was never jealous. At the end of the evening going home, i’d always let her now that she was the star of the show and every guy had checked her out numerous occasions. And she’d always put on a coy smile and let me know that we probably wouldn’t make it to the front door before getting down to business.

That was during the best of times.

During the worst, i don’t think i could imagine even trying to entertain such an event. She’d probably have left with another dude lol.

2 Susan Walsh
==================
I have said there is nothing wrong with enjoying positive attention, even sexual, from members of the opposite sex. The manipulation comes when one responds to that attention with a positive sexual vibe, or even worse, initiates the sexual vibe in the first place.
==================

What does it even mean? It’s OK to have sexual attention, but not OK to have sexual vibe. Sounds a lot like new-age mantras – “let the good energy flow through you, and bad energy be deflected and absorbed by Gaia”

==================
That’s totally out of bounds in a committted relationship.
==================

Says who? What legal, moral or societal norms are violated?

==================
He’s flirting with other women to keep his wife interested. He doesn’t believe that she will value him if he can’t make her feel anxious about his going outside the marriage for sex. Instead of being an attractive partner, he’s constantly attempting to prove his attractiveness. “Hey look, I got Charlene from next door to flirt with me!”
==================

That’s wrong. You write “Instead of being an attractive partner, he’s constantly attempting prove his attractiveness”, he is not “attempting to prove”, he’s creating attraction. Female preselection is a powerful attraction trigger which leads to genuine attraction

==================
If he is successful, he gains reassurance that his wife desires him, and that other women do too. Win win. She gains doubt that she is enough to hold her husband’s interest, worries about socializing where other women will be present, and has sex with him to save the marriage and reclaim his attention. That’s a very, very unenjoyable way for a woman to have sex. It’s a massive loss for her – she already knew her husband was attractive, now he’s using it to instill dread that he may cheat or leave.
===================

If a woman takes her man for granted, she will lose attraction to him. Sex will be infrequent and mediocre. She will look for “opportunities” outside

2 Susan Walsh

================
When my husband and I go to a party, he is always pleased when I take care with my appearance, and he is proud to bring me to the party as “his.”
================

That’s great. Some men are very jealous and they will create a lot of drama when they see their women talking to other guys or dressing up for parties. Not all women experience anxiety attacks when they see their men socialize with other women when out. The idea that anxiety attacks caused by completely socially acceptable behavior are somehow normal is bogus

The whole idea that social dominance and preselection techniques are designed to create anxiety is completely wrong. Those techniques are designed to create sexual attraction. If a woman experiences anxiety attacks, she needs to get into therapy pronto, she cannot blame a man for her internal problems

>> “In the real world, however, socially active and dominant guys get attention, male wallflowers are not noticed at all”

Maybe, but a misplaced flirting attempt can also get a guy labelled as “creepy”. (This label is unfair most cases, but I wouldn’t have very much sympathy for a married man who gets the “creepy” label after hitting on his wife’s friends.)

“the moral of the story is that there are ways of being dominant and socially active without having to overtly flirt with everybody.”

Bingo, Emily. My husband is socially dominant and active in a group of all guys. I noticed him right away because of that. His social groups are still basically all guys, and I love it when he works the group.

I agree completely. I don’t flirt in front of my wife and we’re still married. I am watching what she does. No drama, no problems, no hint of dissatisfaction.

Escoffier, you must live in Unicornland like the rest of us.

Emily: “I guess the moral of the story is that there are ways of being dominant and socially active without having to overtly flirt with everybody.”

Those ways are:

1. Be attractive
2. Don’t be unattractive.
3. Don’t be unattractive.

Follow those, and you’ll never fail!

Some questions: Manufacturing dread is a deliberate act while in a relationship.
How is that connected to a man not appearing needy? Some guys aren’t, and don’t look needy. Some guys may be but put on an act.
Is it possible a guy could be sufficiently alpha that he has natural game and doesn’t know it? That, in fact, he may not even know that some women are really into him when he thinks of them as casual dates or congenial colleagues?
If so, it would seem likely that at least some of the things he would do without thinking of them as game, or even thinking of them at all, would look as if he were manufacturing dread.

March 17, 2012 at 11:07 am

@Sandy

A beautiful woman (which is not what you described, IMO) will of course be noticed by other men. What’s important is how she deals with that. Is she an attention whore, or does she use her beauty to make her husband proud? If men flirt with her, does she communicate clearly that she is not interested in fostering sexual attraction, or does she respond to make her husband jealous?
—————————————————-

A group of my husbands college friends came out to our town recently and we all went out one night ( I hadnt ever met any of them previously) Honestly, I wanted to just relax at home, but knew that once I was out I’d have fun.

Was talking with some of the friends and the one guy said said to me ” you have 4 kids, youre a (insert job title here) and you look like that?–lucky (insert hubby’s name here)!

Made it worth the effort to go out and be charming to complete strangers.
Of course I mentioned it to the hubs later

I’ve been in many social situations where some married man was too attentive, placing his hand on my lower back, getting too close, going for excessive eye contact. Many of these men were cheating alpha types. I’ve had it happen on the Little League field, at PTA meetings, charity benefits, block parties and in church. We women have words for men like this: skeeze, sketchball, slimy, snake, cheater. I’m sure that every one of those guys thinks he’s just the hottest, when in reality he’s making a fool of himself and his wife when he acts that way.
—————————————————————–

Ugh this reminds me of a dressy work function I attended with my husband years ago … my dress revealed a small portion of my back. His boss came over to our table and stuck his hand into my dress, while looking at my husband and said in what seemed to me to be the creepiest pervy voice ever ” Is this yours”?

still makes me shudder

Susan,

Thought-provoking post. I’m curious: what makes you think that flirting has anything to do with the woman in a relationship? I see it as an example of a guy enjoying chatting with a woman he finds attractive, and vice-versa.

We both know that you find other people attractive, and so does your husband. Flirting is a harmless expression of that attraction, and almost certainly has nothing to do with you.

Why make it so?

2 Kareem

============
I’m curious: what makes you think that flirting has anything to do with the woman in a relationship? I see it as an example of a guy enjoying chatting with a woman he finds attractive, and vice-versa.
============

We have a general trend in society to criminalize various male behaviors in the context of relationship.
For example according to City Of Huntington Beach behaviors such as:
1) Pushing partners into decisions
2) Always insisting on being right
3) Lying, breaking promises
4) Not expressing feelings

are domestic violence and therefore illegal. Despite the fact that those behaviors are written in gender-neutral language the enforcement system related to domestic violence very rarely prosecutes women. Some women might want to add “chatting up a waitress” to domestic violence lists, by creating justifications that socializing and bantering in public somehow constitutes “instilling dread” or other form of “psychological terrorism”

http://www.huntingtonbeachca.gov/Government/Departments/pd/crime_info/domesticviolenceinformationresource.cfm

Bottom line is that this tactic can work for men because when women see a man eliciting positive responses from other women they’ll feel more attracted to him. They can’t help it. This includes the man’s partner, in spite of any jealousy.

In this age of government-sponsored female hypergamy (with its concomitant female ego-inflation) men need to be ruthless. This tactic is another tool available should it be necessary.

.

And did your mother cheat on your father for years, then divorce him, take half his money, and not allow him custody to see you anymore?

No?

So which part are you saying is a bad thing for guys to do again?

Author: Ted D
Comment:
My takeaway here is: find out what my SO considers “too much” and stay just
under that threshold for maximum effect with minimum emotional trauma. It seems
that everyone has a different idea of what flirting is, so best idea is to know
what it means to your GF/wife.
——————————————————————

I think youre dead on here, Ted. Just the right amount is perfect- too much and I’d go packing for sure. But I am here to say that “some” can bring fireworks-which I hate admitting.

Author: Susan Walsh
Comment:
I spent five seasons of Friday Night Lights swooning for Tim Riggins, played by
Taylor Kitsch. He’s Canadian, and I read that he’s one of four brothers, all
models. I think he’s pretty close to physical perfection.
………………………………………………………………………………..

sorry, susan, I already got dibbs on him.

Anacaona March 16, 2012 at 5:57 pm

@J
Is only her and her husband, but yeah I don’t get the whole “I’m worth what I’m wearing/own” I dislike materialistic people as a whole. I just want enough money to feed myself, my kinds the husband, leave under a decent enough roof and have ice cream once in a while if I ever get more than that then I might spent it on luxuries like travel and charity but God knows that if someone starts to judge me for my accessories that person is going in the short list of people I don’t mind not talking too really fast, YMMV.
—————————————————————

we could definitely be friends…… I don’t even carry a purse- I so don’t get the “look at my expensive wardrobe of purses” thing.

None of the Taylor Kitsch stuff was very encouraging.

Hope – “You’re seeing the equivalent of “locker room talk” for girls here, and you don’t like it. ”

that makes sense. I used to detest locker room talk and always made a hasty exit when it occurred around me.

As far as I know, women don’t stop wanting to “look their best” once in a relationship, so should a man always be “displaying his best” as well?

i learned my lesson, but now it’s not a case of me looking my best for anyone. i just wanna look my best for myself. if i get into a relationship again, i’ll always be wanting to look my best because i’ll always want to be at the top of my game. it’ll keep me at the point of ‘having options’ so the dread instilled never need be verbalized nor overt

Herb

This is another case of what Susan has called everyone weaponizing. Most men have gotten regular grief from women (see above about my wife) if they noticed other women. They expect women to have the same self-control only to learn that as far as women are concerned it shouldn’t hurt a man’s feeling.

+1
THIS.

If a woman wants to be a child and be that immature little giggling swooning teenybopper, but throw a shit fit because my eyeballs happen to see a Victoria Secret model in a sea of mastodons walking the street, the hypocrisy can only cut so much.

Double standards coming out of the wood works.

Herb, there is a bit of mainstream brainwashing going on with tat. Men are portrayed in pop culture to be insensitive and not very emotional, whereas women are portrayed as overly sensitive and emotional. So many women feel like they can say what they want, and their men shouldn’t say similar things. Of course if men do get sensitive about it, they’re seen as wussy or sissy, and the cycle perpetuates itself. Even Game advocates being non-reactive and immovable as “alpha.”

I think this is a sexual double-standard that will continue though, because like it or not, men are expected to be a certain way, and women are expected to be a certain way, and the ways are different. The notch count double standard is just the tip of the iceberg.

M3,

Maybe you can break out some “dread” if she tries it.

I’m with JM, Ted and M3.
I have walked in the past for gushing about so and so. Its a sign of 100% disrespect she thinks of you as worth less than trash. And again respect > love in terms of importance for me. Actually without 100% respect there is no relationship for me.

I know my fiance thinks Jude Law is hot. She doesn’t gush on and on about it. I don’t give a fuck.

If I overheard her gushing I’d end our 4 year relationship in seconds without a second thought. (And as she doesn’t yet know I am now more fluent-ish in Chinese, I intend to speak to her parents in their own language when we get married.)

I do find it funny that man can’t talk about how hot so and so is. Because we all know dread is evil but women doing exactly the same thing is no big deal.

Its stuff like this that makes mysogyny reasonable.

As for couples with lists, good for them…. I know I’m on someones list so lucky me. Poor him. Totally okay though right?

If so I guess I have plans for Friday.

Lol. WE have no such list. I told her the first time it came up in mixed company (which was the first I’d ever heard of it) that if she felt the need for one, she won’t need it with me, because I won’t be there.

I do see it as a respect issue, but I also don’t think it ever occurred to her. I’m finding that she is used to being with a very liberal/sex pozzy crowd. She is so used to hearing crass stuff that she doesn’t realize it can be hurtful. Her ex is about as crass as it gets, and she just isn’t used to someone with a vocal filter and minimum expectations for civil conversation.

As I understand it, when she was married normal party conversations often focused on things like this. The conversation hovered somewhere between locker room bragging and “truth or dare.” she learned from these conversations that her ex lost his virginity at 13 to a woman his dad brought home to “get it over with” in fact. So, I try to cut her some slack. I imagine if she had been married to a sailor for 10 years she would probably swear a lot as well. :-p

As far as the comment goes, she was watching some music channel and a video came on. I can’t remember who it was, but her friend made some comment and my SO replied something along the lines of “I would so rape him!” later I called her on it, and she said that obviously she wouldn’t rape anyone, and that she was just talking smack with her GF. I explained to her that it was hurtful, and to me it reflected badly on me and our relationship. She got a bit miffed, but apologized later. It doesn’t help that this friend of hers openly says that she has a huge crush on the lead singer of 30 Seconds to Mars, in front of her husband and anyone that will listen every time one of their songs come on. Every time it happens, I feel bad for him…

I can’t remember who it was, but her friend made some comment and my SO replied something along the lines of “I would so rape him!”

I would’ve walked out there and then and not come home till at least the next morning.

Sue,

If my husband and I see an arousing sex scene together, in a movie or True Blood, for example, it usually means we’ll head for the BR afterwards. Should I be threatened that watching a woman having sex arouses him? Should he feel that way about me? I don’t think so.

There’s a difference. Of course you’re both going to find a sex scene arousing. That’s not the same as crushing on a particular person, though. Not that I’m criticizing the two of you.

@ Susan

“You do not get to judge any woman for gushing about some other guy when you fuck other women via Ashley Madison. That’s a redwood you’ve got in your own eye buddy.”

You can judge me, hate me, tell me what I can/cannot post, tell me how evil/wrong/horrible/inhumane/hypocritical I am but don’t tell me whether or not I can judge someone who I am personally involved with.

On another note, is a redwood some kind of tree?

@ Hope

“If the girlfriend/wife is saying stuff that doesn’t make you happy, how about have a civil conversation about it instead of dumping her immediately for daring to talk that way? Or going on a revenge rampage with your own over-the-top flirting and talking about how hot other women are? Why is this a zero-tolerance, deal-breaking issue?”

I should have clarified. Its an instant dealbreaker if she doesn’t drop it immediately and forever more.
Its like if she pulls out a huge shit test in public, I tell them to drop it. If they don’t, I walk.

As for Teds situation, I would have left and let her stew for a while because saying “I want his penis inside of me” translates to “I want his children not yours” not matter how you spin it.

Hope:
“that was basically what some aspects of feminism were reacting against, the “boys will be boys,” the perceived unfairness, the societal level condoning of affairs and emotional insensitivity.
Problem is, these uprisings are inherently unstable, as the new status quo begins to oppress the old status quo. The French Revolution touched off a counter revolution, and then a counter-counter revolution.
It also happens when people see the “other” as “different” and as the “enemy.”
I get where the men are coming from, because if I were in their shoes, I’d be pissed off, too. The solution is not more divisive mentality and hatred, but more understanding, compassion and love.”

> + 1
—–
H:
“But… I’m not holding my breath.”

The end result will be that everyone will resort to childish misbehavior- “children will be children” until those acting like adults get totally fed up and then……. and then…… well, that’s what I’M waiting to see in my lifetime.
What happens next to those who don’t participate? Oh, the suspense.

@ Hope, Sassy

Would you say its acceptable for said men to wtach porn and then come inform you that: your BJ is less than adequate, your tits are just not quite round enough, your hips are not the perfect ratio and your hair could be longer and shinier?

No?

Yeah, nobody wants to hear how not good they are irrespective of sex.

As I said fiance thinks Jude Law is hot. Don’t care.
Fiance gushes continuously about how hot he is. Care very much.

Pro tip for either gender:

Making a comment like “That guy/girl is so HAWT!” with your SO around and your SO not looking anything like what you are comparing = sheer mind boggling attraction killing stupidity.

I am not all things to all women. I understand I am not Ian Sommerwhatshisface. I accept that reality and don’t begrudge him for it. But if it is vocalized to me that my SO would really enjoy a romp with someone that looks like him, and i do not have his facial features and piercing eyes, it makes me wonder how far down the rung my exwife has placed me on the desirability ladder. I am now in a direct comparison. And at that point, I’m really do not feel like placing all too much an effort to move a mountain.

There is a big difference between knowing in the background that my exwife thinks he’s a beautiful pretty boy that everyone knows about vs. knowing he’s the ‘type’ of guy gets her panties moist.

Again, i’ll drive it home. Would be if you had a couple pounds on you, had blonde hair, thick legs and little breasts and your SO was with his buddies on the couch pointing at the TV during the Victoria Secret Fashion show going “OMG look how fucking smoking hot she is… what i wouldn’t give to be ‘bitten’ by her, if ya know what i mean’

…

(sad face on SO)

…

oh stop pouting hun.. you’re being a little too sensitive dont-cha think? it’s not like im gonna go out and fuck a Vic. Secret model am i?

There are men who get their women to dress up, wear heels…

Evil Bastards!

@ Hope

I agree. Whether or not the person can deal is their own issue.

As for me, I do it. I don’t ever compare… never in a million years would I be that cruel to everyone who isn’t her.

I don’t find the action of X wrong. Its the comparison of X to the SO I find offensive. Something I do not do.

And gushing about his perfect abs, her nice tits etc. are merely inverse statements of an SOs inadequacies.

Finding attractive, okay.
Gushing = saying your SO is not good enough indirectly and for women only, you want that guys kids not your SOs.

Susan Walsh: “Should I be threatened that watching a woman having sex arouses him? Should he feel that way about me? ”

Is he just watching or does he describe in detail all of the things he’d like to sexually do with the actress or does he compare you to her?
I think there’s an issue when both parties disagree on what reactions/behaviors are acceptable or when there’s a double standard.

The comparisons, like what Herb’s ex-wife would do is unacceptable, I think.

M3, yeah those romance novels are also about hypergamy just like celebrity guys, who are usually protagonists in a romantic story.

I have only ever said glowingly good things about my husband and “eww” or “whatever” about random celebrities. I don’t care about romantic novels either or Twilight or other related female genre stuff. It makes me weird, abnormal, strange, just like Jesus Mahoney who apparently doesn’t look at porn (it’s okay my husband hasn’t sought out porn in about a year I think).

If you want a normal female, 99% of the time they’re going to be into the celebrity thing and tingle for whathisname and vampires.

I’m pro-porn in the same way I’m pro-beer.

Hope, there’s nothing wrong with any of that stuff if she’s into it, and maybe she doesn’t even *know* she’s into it just yet. Some repressed women might think anything but a few minutes of mish is horrible abuse, but then find out doggie-style isn’t so bad. If porn gives them some ideas that they both like, what’s the harm? I’ve learned a few trick from watchings that the Mrs. goes bonkers for. Call the police on me.

Some women like spanking and some like hair-pulling at the right time. It’s not always abuse or a mental problem. And, since everyone seems to rail against it for some reason as a surefire sign of abuse… some women really do like anal.

I won’t pretend that there isn’t degrading stuff in porn, but degrading is contextual.

OffTheCuff, some porn features another man, or another man watching, so-called cuckold porn. Some guys are into that sort of thing. Getting the girl into it sounds a bit risky.

But, no I don’t think it’s abuse, and I don’t judge when other people do it, because it’s their business. I just think it’s up to the individual what/how much they would tolerate or like.

In that sense the guys here shouldn’t feel sorry for Jen’s husband because she made some comments about some celebrity.

Sassy – you too? I guess pretty boys need lovin too…

I never “made” anyone wear heels to bed. I simply suggested it, and she liked the idea.

Good grief my immediate reaction was to get embarrassed and defensive, and I didn’t do anything wrong. THAT right there is what years of blue pill living gets a man. I still have to remind myself on occasion that it is indeed OK to have a “kink” of sorts.

Hope:
“I don’t care about romantic novels either or Twilight or other related female genre stuff. It makes me weird, abnormal, strange”

We must’ve been separated at birth, although years apart. lol

Hope
“If you want a normal female, 99% of the time they’re going to be into the celebrity thing and tingle for whathisname and vampires.”

Yes.
Only I don’t think the woman has to go on and on about x celebrity in front of her SO unless he does the same in her presence.
Now, if you’re the odd female who’s NOT into any of that, you’d be hard pressed to find other female friends who aren’t, so you have to put up with some of the gushing.

Herb: “I would also point out a large number of women will claim viewing porn counts as a adultery and is, thus, ground for divorce.”

Grounds for divorce is going too far.
Being upset if the husband’s leaving the wife wanting, while he rejects her and turns to porn…. understandable.
Being upset if the wife is deliberately withholding sex, not understandable.

@sassy; hope
“Lokland, some men ask their significant others to try out scenes from porn, and supposedly the huge explosion of anal sex (no pun intended) is because of porn. There are men who get their women to dress up, wear heels, do threesomes or agree to getting other girls on the side (hey that sounds familiar). There are also men who tell their women that their boobs aren’t big enough and to get breast implants. These things happen. Some women put up with it, and some women walk.”

And none of that is the same as simply admiring a few pictures of nekked ladies on your own time but not rubbing your SO’s face in it. Also, looking at a few pictures is not the same as jacking off to porn all day. So, you are simply changing the subject of the debate here – it’s not surprising that you would get a different answer.

So, if you want to thing some celebrity is not – just don’t rub your SO’s face in it all the time, just like you wouldn’t want him to call you over to his computer while he comments on how much better the model’s tits are than yours.

Now, back to the original argument of her saying “God I would so rape him”, we cannot avoid the practical issue that men seek exclusive sex in return for commitment. Taking into account what both parties seek in a relationship, this is essentially the same as a husband seeing a woman and saying “God, I wish I were married to her instead of you so she could be the mother of my children.”

Author: Herb
Comment:
@anon 474:

Grounds for divorce is going too far.
Being upset if the husband’s leaving the wife wanting, while he rejects her and
turns to porn…. understandable.
Being upset if the wife is deliberately withholding sex, not
understandable.

How about wife is only willing to have sex 100% on her terms and her enjoyment
and when called on it “well, you came so you must have enjoyed it”.

Sometimes it’s actually more honest or at least humane to just withhold sex.
————————————————————————

Youre right, herb, thats a horrible way to treat your spouse

Question for the guys,

How many of you have informed your SO about just how fucking hot Scarlett Johanssen is.
Her tits and curves are just so perfect. Look at them, then theres that feminine coy thing shes got going on. Mind boggilingly hot, seriously.
She is just perfect.

Lets do a social experiment, find a good picute of Johanssen and repeat verbatim (or if your feeling inventive do it yourself) what I just said and see how many of our SOs respond positively or for that matter even neutrally.

This is a female dread tactic pure and simple.
Men don’t you dare use dread tactics on your woman its a horrible thing to do.
However women reserve the right to use dread tactics on us till hells end. What we define is dreadful is irrelevant because women say its not dreadful therefore it can be a dreadful experience.

I’m a hypocrite, I’ll admit it.
I don’t expect the same courtesy but if women can’t atleast look inside themeselves and see that gushing over another man can hurt their SO then that is bitterly disappointing.

Herb:
“How about wife is only willing to have sex 100% on her terms and her enjoyment ”

Totally fine if she’s in a relationship with…… herself.

Author: Passer_By
Comment:
@Jen
“I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Dread works ( apparently on both
sexes) ”

I’m sorry, but this is more than the dread otherwise discussed – which is the
notion that if you turn into a bitch or stop appreciating him, he will have
options. This is simply saying that, with the right guy, you would take the
opportunity to spread your legs and choose his seed over your SO’s regardless of
what your SO does (short of him becoming fabulously rich and famous and looking
like Brad Pitt).

WHat??? who said that??

Lokland, there are definitely guys who use that and talk about how hot female celebrities are, including ScarJo or MegFox or whatshernames. There are also relationships where people fight and bicker all the time, then have hot makeup sex. Different strokes for different folks.

It’s not my thing, and it’s not our thing. But most relationships are not to our taste. Other people might find our relationship really boring, too.

Author: Passer_By
Comment:
@anon
“Notartfullyworded?
I should consider using that as a handle.”

LOL. Good one.
—————————————————————————

mine should be “Notartfullytyped”

From a personal standpoint, I don’t care if Sue swoons or appreciates and I
don’t care if Jen was thinking “damn damn damn” over a guy that makes her brain
stop working or if she was just mildly disappointed that she missed an
opportunity to compare an on-screen actor to his flesh-and-blood body. So I
apologize to both of them if I was rude.

————————————————————————————–
JM,

We’re cool.

I just am fascinated by hearing how different people feel about all this stuff. There sure is a long continuom of reactions.

@jen

I see – then you probably never presented it as anything other than thinking he was hot and joking a little about it – which is cool, and not disrespectful in my view (JM may feel differently).

What Ted’s GF did was different to me, even if she plays it off as no big deal.

On the other hand, I don’t think my wife would like it if I kept talking about how hot some particular celeb woman was. Intuitively, I think most men know enough not to go there, so there is a double standard on even that, perhaps because women are judged for their looks more than men, I dunno.

Passerby,

I’d be cool with my gf thinking another man was hot. I’d even be cool with her saying it. I wouldn’t be cool with her having a “thing” for a particular guy. And I wouldn’t be cool with her thinking he was hotter than me–even from an “objective” standpoint. Not that I’d get bitter. I’d just get going.

And in the case of Ted’s SO, if my gf said she’d so rape a guy, I’d get up and walk out.

The only time I’d get bitter was if it was a woman I had children with. Then I’d be stuck with her because of the kids. Then I’d probably end up hating her.

“My only option is that I couldn’t be with a person who continually made me feel like shit, whether or not they think it is wrong is irrelevant.”

Lokland, for me that hits the nail on the head. I agree that no one should stay in a situation where they are made continually to feel badly.

It’s very clear that this feeling is very unique to each person. For Susan in the OP, it’s:

“What happens when we see the man we love flirting with other women?  Responding to them, maybe even encouraging them? How do we feel? Lucky that he has options, that he could leave and get another woman with ease?  God no. We feel ashamed. Why is the man who claims to love us seeking affirmation and sexual validation from other women?”

And for some of the gentlemen here, it’s hearing the women in your lives commenting / vocalizing in front of you on the looks / sex appeal of another man—a celebrity or actor, perhaps.

To me, each concern is equally valid, and would be diminishing if the other were to hear “you’re just being sensitive” or “I don’t get that” in response to airing concerns.

It’s important that we understand and respect our partner’s limits on these issues.

@OTC, Elisha Cuthbert seemed incandescent to me in her youth, but I think some of that has faded as she’s gotten older. What do you think? She’s in Happy Endings on ABC and she doesn’t have the glow to me, anymore.

I follow the ‘whats good for the goose’ approach.

I’m not stupid nor naive. I know the statistical probability that a celeb is most likely a celeb because on the bell curve of attractiveness, he’s at the top of the bell. I’m not an idiot. I recognize that.

Where my problem stems from is not in realizing that women find a particular man’s features attractive. It’s the reaction.

There is leaps and bounds difference between a really (insert attraction descriptor here) guy walking by, my SO taking a look, putting her finger on her chin, raising an eyebrow and saying ‘Hmmm, not bad’. Hell, i’d probably turn around and say ‘Hey, you’re right!’

AND

having that same man walk buy, and reducing my SO to the mental state of a retarded 16 year old girl, blushing and chewing on her lip to prevent her from screaming ‘omfg did you see who that was, it was Damon from VD, omg omg omg… he’s so f’n hawwwwt’.

If you think he’s that fucking hawt, i am obviously chopped liver at this point and know who you’d rather be with after making a statement like that. And i will make it my life’s mission to make you feel like lower than dirt about yourself before i kick you to the curb if you pull that shit on me.

Any reaction that perceptually places another man on a sexual level higher than me, instant boner killer, instant disrespect, and instant GTFO.

What M3 said, but without bothering to have a life’s mission before kicking her to the curb, because life is too short.

Hope,

It’s just not even a matter of “making a mistake” in my opinion. I’m not being hostile when I say I would walk. I simply don’t want to be with someone who finds other men more attractive than me. It just doesn’t correspond to my idea of love.

I wouldn’t bear a grudge to any woman for not living up to my ideal, but I wouldn’t compromise that ideal on anyone’s account.

@susan

Comment 431 from Ted. Hilarity thereafter ensues.

@ Hope

cont’d

Male dark game, not male game.

Last, EVERY SINGLE GUY who has commented here has said they hate it when their SO even gushes about another guy.
This is situation normal for guys.

Lokland,

Just to be clear, I have no problem with my gf finding other men attractive. The issue is whether she finds them “more” attractive than me. And also, whether she’d disrespect me by constant mention or infatuation with another man/other men.

I need to hold out for a woman like Hope. Or hold out hope that my own gf is like that.

“This whole debate makes me wonder if people like Roissy and Roosh aren’t just disappointed idealists.”

They turned their backs on the light path and went full on to gain dark polarity. But they’re still not pure enough in the darkness, because they’re helping people.

@ Susan

“I have never in 30 years implied that I’d like to have sex with another man. I think it would destroy my relationship if I said that.”

I have never in 30 years implied that I’d like to have sex with another man. I KNOW it would destroy my relationship if I said that.

Fixed it for you. Anyway yeah, if my SO ever even indirectly implied it in some obscure way. I would walk.

So I assume now my comments on female dark game make more sense.

@Hope
How long had you been married? I always assumed that you and your husband had been together almost a decade or so.

Anacaona, my husband and I met and fell in love when we were 25, which is about 3 years ago.

Anacaona, my husband and I met and fell in love when we were 25, which is about 3 years ago.

Okay I though for some reason that it was longer…Mmmm were you commenting on the Rawness when you were still single? I’m not stalking you I swear I just read someone called Hope with a similar style.

@ Susan

“Yes, they do. I honestly don’t know what percentage of women would say something like that. I’d like to think it’s small, but based on reality shows and celeb gossip in the U.S. I fear it’s a high number. What can I say, I’m champion of the outliers.”

I was frustrated yesterday.

But its having to have debates on whether or not its wrong/right for a wife to want to have sex with another man. And then questioning why the men are saying GTFO without hesitation when their SO is talking about fucking other guys is truly mind boggiling.

Last, the fact that not one woman here but you can see how this is female dark game terror being used on their SO is really fucked up.

Your not even championing outliers in this case you seem to be a team of one.

Anyway, if you want to know whats making all the guys here bitter its stuff like this where the essential message is “as a man your opinion is not as important as mine”.

@ Susan

“That is what girls do, because it’s fun, it’s just a form of entertainment and a way that women bond. ”

My opinion on celebrities is different than JMs but this line speaks volumes on the problem guys are having.

I can bond with my buddies by:
drinking excessively, playing on a group of hot women in a club or hiring some strippers. These are all fun, entertaining and excellent ways to bond.

The fact that it hurts my SO means I don’t do it.
Fiance > herd.

Do I think it stupid she gets offended when I hit on another women? Yeah.
Do I still not do it? Yeah.

Whereas in this case it appears that the female herd > SO.

Man: It hurts when you ….
Women: Get over it we’re bonding.

Its not wrong but I wouldn’t voluntarily walk into that relationship.

————————————————–

“I have a hard time believing that women here would back up the idea of a woman in a relationship looking to step out”

They didn’t. They endorsed the idea that its acceptable for women to want to step out and subsequently verbalize and repeat that to their SO ad nauseum. (Thats taken to an extreme, in reality its more mild). Actually doing it wasn’t discussed.

Escoffier,

There’s no such thing as “objectively” beautiful.

“What happens when we see the man we love flirting with other women?
Responding to them, maybe even encouraging them? How do we feel? Lucky that he
has options, that he could leave and get another woman with ease? God no. We
feel ashamed. Why is the man who claims to love us seeking affirmation and
sexual validation from other women?”

And for some of the gentlemen here, it’s hearing the women in your lives
commenting / vocalizing in front of you on the looks / sex appeal of another
man—a celebrity or actor, perhaps.

To me, each concern is equally valid, and would be diminishing if the other were
to hear “you’re just being sensitive” or “I don’t get that” in response to
airing concerns.

It’s important that we understand and respect our partner’s limits on these
issues.
—————————————————————————

doesn’t that go without saying?? I suppose the rub, here, is determining those limits before you hurt your S/O

For that matter, Escoffier, some people have open relationships. They think it’s possible for someone to love one person while burying his dick inside another person. Great for them. Not for me.

Susan – she is like most people in that she never really thought too much about the WHY of what she does. But, she has the ability and intelligence for it, and seems to be good with coming to terms with some of her own “stuff”.

She still says I think too much, but I also think she understands my need to know the WHY.

I have very little respect for her friend, and I’ve told my SO that many times. It’s unfortunate, because despite her behavior towards her husband, she is a pretty decent person. For whatever reasons, they both just seem to be involved with each other based on a relationship of negative feelings. I’ve been told that at one point there was some swinging and “other” activities in their marriage, so the relationship is so foreign to me that I can’t figure out why they are together. That being said, I spent years unhappy because I didn’t see any option, so perhaps they just feel like they deserve each other.

Jesus Mahoney, it’s kind of normal, I think. It’s why I went on a break from the general redpillsphere, including HUS, when I first met my husband until when we got engaged. I was lucky because he was managing a non-profit at the time and had access to a computer, so we just chatted all the time.

My husband and I had hours upon hours of honest communication and getting to know all about each other before we moved in together, and we still had a few incidents. He did fall off the pedestal a bit, and as did I. But we bonded strongly to each other, and those incidents proved to us we could weather storms.

It is better to fall in love with the real person than the idealized version in your head. True love embraces flaws, too. There is no perfect human being. We can only strive toward bettering ourselves, and because my husband and I do that, and we’re aware enough and compatible enough, our love has not diminished after seeing “reality.”

Muff,

Thanks, I needed that. You’re right, I shouldn’t be dwelling on what might be.

Jesus M. – “I just feel like… idk, the odds of my gf actually meeting my standards are so slim, that we’re bound to break up soon enough.”

IMO you should nip that shit in the ass. It wasn’t so long ago that you ran me up and down about how MY expectations for people to suck in general may contribute to the fact that my interactions with most people suck. Don’t go wrecking your feelings by looking at this as inevitable.

I believe you once told me that I was looking for a guaranty in life and no such thing existed. Pot, meet kettle.

If she hasn’t given you a single reason to doubt her, don’t. If/when she DOES give you a reason, handle it. But don’t start LOOKING for a reason to doubt her, because I can tell you the mind is capable of conjuring the worst in everyone.

I’m not trying to bust your balls, and if it seems that way I’m sorry. But seriously, you are the resident male HUS idealist, and I hate seeing you this pessimistic. Leave that to those of us that have made it an art form. Your talent lies elsewhere.

And how do you understand love, JM?

@m3
“518 actually heh. but thanks for noticing. was almost starting to think i was just pissing in the wind and my commentary gets lost in the ether.”

Just so you don’t go through the day feeling so unappreciated.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/03/15/relationshipstrategies/the-sad-reality-of-using-anxiety-to-generate-attraction/comment-page-4/#comment-109856

Sassy: For the guys in relationships here, I have a question for you. Do you think that your mate would leave you for a hotter man, if the opportunity presented itself?”

No. We have three kids, and a shared life, so there’s that she’d give up or damage. Being the first and only man to make her orgasm has bonding advantages, and it only gets stronger/more intense over time. She’s wanted to marry me since she was 18, and has never wavered in her affection. Never turned me down for sex.

“I just feel like… idk, the odds of my gf actually meeting my standards are so slim, that we’re bound to break up soon enough.”

This may sound mean; not intended that way.

The odds of your gf actually meeting your standards do sound very slim. The reason I can say that without knowing her is that your standards, as stated, are unreasonable.

If I understand you, you want the following. Any SR of yours should value you above all the other 3.5 million males in the world, and not merely value you higher but also think that you’re the most attractive man in the world. Anything less, to you, is not love; it is settling.

Now, obviously I do not have insight into the souls of every living person. But I believe that such a feeling is quite rare. About the best anyone can expect to find is someone they believe is “the best for them.” This does not preclude the existence of someone who is better looking, better at this or that, richer, higher status, funnier, more alpha, whatever. But maybe he has a combination of traits that make him “just right for her.”

Even that is probably not all that common. In reality, most of us could probably have ended up with a range of people and been quite happy and in love. But in any event, the idea that we (I, you) MUST be our SO’s perfect ideal, no one hotter, anywhere, is just a recipe for failure.

The whole premise of assortive mating tells against it. When 7s pair off with 7s, each of them knows on some level that there are 10s out there and they didn’t get one. That needn’t make them unhappy and/or not in love. If it did, only 10s would ever pair off.

I once had a friend tell me all mopey that is GF broke up with him. Why? well, it turns out he couldn’t help telling her about all these women he found hot. Why the hell was he doing that? He had to be “honest.” I said, dude, it’s one thing to be honest and another to be an idiot. Certainly don’t lie to her about anything important but there’s no reason to reveal to her ever stray tingle in your little head. Just don’t act on them and STFU. He said that was being untrue to himself or something.

My point is, nearly everyone is going to get that tingle from time to time. Some people, like my parents and their friends, can handle hearing jokes about it. Others, like you, can’t. Which is fine. Like I said, I am more toward your end than theirs.

But you want there never to be any such stirrings in the first place. That’s not realistic. If that’s your standard, you are goind to have a very hard time finding a girl who meets it. Probably the best you can do is a girl who hides it very well and never brings it up and it sounds like that’s not good enough for you.

Very wise advice here… I always thought this was obvious since I was a kid (lust fades, duh) but I’m glad you are stating it. These relationship n00bs Hope and JM are cute. Come back in 15 years and see how things change over time.

Hey I’m not that old! : And I agree with this but then I come from four generations of never divorcee people this idea that you are going to be head in clouds forever is not only unreal is exhausting. No one will ever get anything done. There is a true better stronger bond coming after the limerence period I’m not afraid of it and no one should get addicted to be in love, people break up all the time when that feeling fades and that is not good, YMMV.

If I understand you, you want the following. Any SR of yours should value you above all the other 3.5 million males in the world, and not merely value you higher but also think that you’re the most attractive man in the world. Anything less, to you, is not love; it is settling.

Yes, you understand me correctly.

“About the best anyone can expect to find is someone they believe is “the best for them.””

This. I’m not thrilled about it either, but I think the truth is there are at least a few dozen “perfect” women for me in the world. Probably hundreds in fact. Its biology. What kind of odds would the human race have if there was only ONE person in the entire world you could produce babies with? None. Of course we’ve evolved a lot and it isn’t just about biology anymore, but as we continually point out here at HUS biology is still a very large part of how we work, and certainly a primary factor in dealings of the hind brain. I can’t remember which thread, but I recall saying that post red pill I’ve realized that the “perfect woman” for me is subjective. Right now my SO is perfect for me, but if tomorrow we split up, I could find another women to be happy with, and she would then be perfect for me. “Soul mates” and most romantic ideals of love are just not founded in practicality. By all means, if/when you find someone to love, pour in as much romance as the relationship can take, and enjoy every second of it. Since the red pill, I will always remember that all the romance in the world won’t trump biology, and all the desire in the world to believe my SO is the “perfect woman” won’t make her truly perfect.

Know it, but don’t dwell on it. The red pill may have shattered my idealistic views on love and romance, but that doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy love and romance when it comes my way. And the knowledge that it isn’t magic means that it is within my power to make things better instead of being at the mercy of some intangible thing. To me, that is the frame I need to learn and adopt as my own. That it is within my power to have love, romance, and happiness.

The red pill may have shattered my idealistic views on love and romance, but that doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy love and romance when it comes my way.

Something i had to struggle with and come to accept. Disney is dead.

My idealism has been transformed into:

– I can love another, but it must be metered
– Everyone is replaceable
– Soulmates can turn on you
– Love does not conquer all
– There is a pricetag for everything
– Happily ever after is not guarenteed
– Till death do us part is a daily lie
– Live for myself, you can come along for the ride, a wingman, but i will never make you my everything, that’s ‘needy’

I can still enjoy all this and be content. Part of me is glad i’ve woken up.

And part of me is sad my idealism is dead.

He said that girls arguing over who’s the cutest Beatle is repugnant.

Oh, okay. I should’ve been more clear, then. A married woman or a woman in love with her bf arguing over who is the cutest Beatle is repugnant.

JM – “Only about romantic love, because the bond is built upon attraction.”

Straight up, if I’m pushing boundaries here let me know. I feel like we have a pretty good mutual respect for two people that only know each other from the ‘net, but I know your also stressed out and I really don’t want to make it worse.

I forget how long you’ve been with your GF, but my memory tells me it is still measured in months. I’ve been with my SO now for about 2 years plus a few months now, and at this point all that heavy “new love” attraction is fading out just a little. This is primarily why I’ve been so obsessed with hypergamy, and figuring out if/what “game” stuff I need to put into play. It is completely normal for all that heavy attraction to fade, and as it does it should be replaced by mutual history, mutual respect, and mutual love. I still think my SO is hot shit, but the cold truth is I can see a shift in exactly why I still feel that way. She is no less sexy to me, but as time goes on I’m finding that it isn’t all about how she looks. Not that she looks any different, but that the focus of my attraction to her is changing from the physical to a mix of physical and emotional.

** warning: TMI to follow **

When I think of her in a sexual sense, it isn’t just that she has a hot body. Now its about how her body feels when we touch. How she smells. I get more turned on by the thought of the last session we had than actually looking at her body. I never noticed it before, but this mechanism has been clearly in play for every single one of my LTR partners.

I can’t speak for the ladies, but I’m guessing there is a similar dynamic for them as well. There is no way to stop time from taking away your beauty and strength, which means that someday my SO and I are in no way going to look sexy at all. But, by then, I fully believe that most of my attraction to her will be emotionally driven, so the fact that she has wrinkles and grey hair won’t matter much to me. THAT is the bonding that is most important to me when it comes to the sexual part of a relationship. Even if I was literally the hottest man alive right this second, it would only be a matter of time before someone hotter comes along.

that initial rush of physical attraction early on in a relationship? More lust than love, regardless of the intentions behind it. The attraction you feel for your mate 5 or 10 years from now? Probably going to be a mix of love and lust. By the time you’ve both been together for decades? I’m thinking love will be the driver. And I believe that is perfectly normal and healthy.

Not romantic though.

@ Susan

“That’s not to say that women feel sexual desire for celebrities or fantasize about them or indeed let them interfere with relationships in any way. ”

I disagree witht the second part. I’ve seen it go bad MANY (I count 5 quickly then I run out of fingers and the other hand has a sandwhich) times.

Anyway if her herd > me in terms of importance there is no relationship.

Hope,

If she thinks other men are more attractive than I am, that would mean she’s more attracted to them. It hardly matters to me that Orlando Bloom is out of her reach on stage or in films or doing whatever the fuck the guy does. The point is that if some other guy is “hotter” than me, then it’s clear to me that the bond she’s going to feel with me is just not worth cultivating. If another man is hotter, then he’s the A guy.

Attractive guys? Sure. Let the world be littered with B guys. As long as I’m the A man.

@Escoffier:

But you want there never to be any such stirrings in the first place. That’s not realistic. If that’s your standard, you are goind to have a very hard time finding a girl who meets it. Probably the best you can do is a girl who hides it very well and never brings it up and it sounds like that’s not good enough for you.

I understand you’re addressing JM correctly but I think for a large number of men this isn’t the issue.

It’s they believe less and less that they can meet a woman who, having chosen a man, can decide the value that choice brought over time is more valuable than a hottie who crosses her path. In such an environment openly stating “wow, isn’t he hot” to him is going to reinforce that lack of believe not only with that partner but if that relationship ends with the next one as well.

This is doubly true if she puts more energy into admiring other men than the one she has chosen. It’s triply true if she denigrates him in other ways more than she admires him.

Actually, just writing that brings me back to Susan’s initial scenario. Does how much a man flirts with his life mitigate the fallout from flirting with other women?

Escoffier,

I have little doubt that 99% (and maybe even 100%) of the celebrities I think are beautiful I would find vapid, boring, snobbish, or just “not my type.” I wouldn’t want to be married to them. But they’re still hot.

Sorry, I don’t find vapid, boring, and snobbish “hot.” And doubly sorry that you do.

@ Herb

“It’s they believe less and less that they can meet a woman who, having chosen a man, can decide the value that choice brought over time is more valuable than a hottie who crosses her path. In such an environment openly stating “wow, isn’t he hot” to him is going to reinforce that lack of believe not only with that partner but if that relationship ends with the next one as well.”

You scored big here.
This isn’t all internal wiring.

We live in an enviroment where female serial monogamy is not only acceptable but celebrated.

Thi is one of those situations where genes + enviroment = fucked up phenotype.

All men are subconsciously aware of cuckolding/cheating w/e u want it but when the society you live in actively promotes this as the best option it should b expected that men will adapt an ultra-sensitive reaction to this threat.

JM is probably coming from a gene set with high cuckold aversion + strong societal influence = uber sensitive.

I come from a family that told me paternity tests were mandatory before I signed the birth certificate. Enviroment increased my sensitivity to the threat.

We have a bunch of women here doing what is really no big deal but we as men have to deal with the fact that (even if its not true) its a really big fucking threat.

Last, the adaption is dependent upon perception not reality.

* it appears to be a really big fuckign threat.

“The whole celeb fetish seems a bit superficial to me. I can’t find a person “hot” until I get to know the person. I guess that definitely makes me an outlier”

As a human being probably. As a man pretty damn likely. I’m like you in that I don’t find a women hot enough to have sex with unless I actually know her. Looking at a hot body may cause an erection, but it still doesn’t get me wanting to jump on it. But I know beyond all doubt that I am an outlier among men in this respect, and when Susan and I were discussing the risks of sex for men vs. women, she essentially confirmed that by saying that if I am indeed as emotionally attached to sex as I explained, then I am an odd bird in her opinion. That’s fine, but it also means that I need to accept that most people don’t think like I do. And by proxy, there is a fair chance that any particular women I may be with may very well feel differently about. If that’s the case, I can ask her if she is willing to operate by my standards, or I can walk away. I would love to not have to make that kind of choice, but I really don’t think it is possible. Instead, I would try to find a woman who’s differences aren’t major issues for me.

In my current situation, I’m passed that. I’m already invested, and so is she. The differences we find must be worked out, or we are done. I certainly can’t change how she feels inside about any particular issue, but if she is willing to adjust without resentment towards me, I can’t see that as a total loss. I’ve had to change things as well, and as long as we continue to be able to accommodate each other without negative feelings, I figure we are doing fine.

Again, your dwelling on something that you don’t even know is true. Don’t. If you can’t get past it, ask and get it out in the open. You may not like the answer, but I believe it is always better to act out of knowledge than out of ignorance. “Knowing is half the battle!”

Charm,

That’s interesting about demisexuals. I think someone else mentioned them once before. Incidentally, I don’t think that describes me. I see many women that I find “hot”, but none as hot as my gf. And I saw many attractive women when I was single, but my first thought was to get to know them a bit. The physical part would rouse me, but if their personality turned me off, then that killed any sort of attraction I may have had for them.

Jesus, don’t feel sorry for me, I’m not the one whose superiority complex is making it impossible to find a mate.

Mike C

JM, you and I are often in disagreement, but I’m with you about 75% here in terms of what you find objectionable/problematic, and what you are arguing is the correct male-female parallel (yes male flirting is the equivalent of female “gushing”/”swooning”.

Thanks, bro.

Escoffier,

Jesus, don’t feel sorry for me, I’m not the one whose superiority complex is making it impossible to find a mate.

I have a mate, but thanks. And I don’t feel sorry for you. Should I?