Vox Day’s Fidelity Survey results are up. Some interesting nuggets of information:
1. Married, admitted to cheating:
Females: 8%
Males: 15%
2. Married, betrayed by spouse:
Females: 14%
Males: 23%
3. Unfaithful who cheated on prior partners before marriage as well:
Females: 100%
Males: 65%
4. Female infidelity was strongly correlated to lifetime number of sex partners:
1-3 partners: 0% cheated
4-9 partners: 20% cheated
10+ partners: 43% cheated
5. Number of prior sexual partners did not increase a woman’s odds of betrayal by her husband.
6. Male infidelity and being betrayed by one’s wife were both strongly correlated to the male’s lifetime number of sex partners:
1-3 partners: 3% cheated, 14% betrayed
4-9 partners: 12% cheated, 30% betrayed
10-19 partners: 28% cheated, 31% betrayed
20+ partners: 43% cheated, 43% betrayed
7. 35% of the men with 20+ partners were divorced.
Key VD Conclusions:
- “More of the men here than the women have experienced marital infidelity, nearly one quarter, which is unsurprising given a betrayed man will tend to be more inclined to swallow the red pill of Game.”
- “Both male and female cheaters tend to marry cheaters.”
- “The more sexually alpha a man is, the more likely it is that he will be betrayed by his wife. It’s the alphas who are 3x more likely to have an unfaithful wife. Notice that the low N men still have wives that betray them at nearly 5x the rate that they cheat, whereas the Alpha cheat/betrayal ratio is 1.”
- “I was surprised to see there was no link between female N and male betrayal corresponding to the link between male N and female betrayal. It could be due to the smaller number of female responses, of course, or due to the lower likelihood that a high N woman will marry in the first place.”
Additional thoughts from SW:
- The sample size of 232 males and 59 females is nearly twice that of Vox’s previous survey on sexual experience. Thanks to HUS readers who participated in the Fidelity Survey.
- Remember, Alpha Game demographics are significantly different than HUS’. In the first survey, Vox’s readership skewed to mid to late 30s, and the vast majority described themselves as religious. In light of this, the data re partner count and cheating is especially surprising.
- This adds support to the claim that women with partner counts in the double digits are more likely to cheat – nearly half in this group.
- Men with a high number of sexual partners cheat a lot, get cheated on a lot, and get divorced a lot.
Bottom line: Whether it’s the addiction to variety, the habit of frequent partner turnover or personality traits common to those who pursue short-term mating, people with high number counts are clearly less suitable as long-term relationship or marriage partners. Filter them out to dramatically increase your odds of marital fidelity and stability.
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Interesting.
*rubs chin*
Bottom line: Whether it’s the addiction to variety, the habit of frequent partner turnover or personality traits common to those who pursue short-term mating, people with high number counts are clearly less suitable as long-term relationship or marriage partners. Filter them out to dramatically increase your odds of marital fidelity and stability.
__________________
Bottom line is, half of them do not have an addiction to variety or have a habit of partner turnover. Only some of the people with high counts are these types of personality types. Divorce is at 50%+ in the US in the general population, so it seems like we only have a 50% chance of a good marriage anyway.
Not very scientific to use a blanket phrase,”people with high number counts are clearly less suitable as long-term relationship or marriage partners.”. It would be more correct to say SOME people who have a high number count could be a high relationship. risk.
Could we also say that high number people have a divorce rate less than the general population?…mmmm (only 35% of men with numbers over 20 were divorced compared to 50% of the general population….)
just sayin…..:)
Yes it’s true. Of course you don’t want high number counts in both sexes but your biggest problem is losing your less sexually active men because as times passes, they start to despise women. And women who haven’t been active are the one’s who are paying for it.
When a man hits 35 and 40, forget it. They are too far corrupted by what they’ve seen and heard.
And let me add at my age of 40, I honestly can tell you I have lost my faith in women. Nor do I trust them. Nor am I the only one.
All of the women cheated on their partners.
Yup MGTOW time.
Ohhh, nvm I read number 3 totally wrong.
Faith restored.
just sayin…..:)
Tom, your inability to read statistics or understand their significance is so beautifully complete than rather than take the time to attempt explaining your many errors to you, I will simply say this: No. The statistics you cited don’t mean what you think they mean, your conclusions are incorrect, and your attempts to improve upon my conclusions are hapless.
@Jim
“your biggest problem is losing your less sexually active men because as times passes, they start to despise women.”
And one can avoid this how?
@Cooper
“And one can avoid this how?”
Teach two generations of women to respect men again?
Or genetic engineering.
Whichever’s easier. I know a guy at Stanford…
On a related note, I can’t help but wonder about the 59 female participants. I’m sure VD took the 4-to-1 ratio into account when analyzing the data, so the sample bias shouldn’t be any issue.
My question is, why were more women hesitant to take the survey? Afraid they’d be painted in a bad light? Shine a spotlight in a dark corner and watch things scamper away…
Or maybe it’s just that Vox is a man writing for a male audience?
Sometimes the cynicism here is startling.
“My question is, why were more women hesitant to take the survey?”
I’d hard to extrapolate that more women refused to take the survey than men. (it was online-vuluntary, right?)
Most likely more men were availible to take part, with similar percentages of men/women opting not to take the survey.
Why divorce when you can be getting some on the side?
@Chris in CA
VD’s readership is probably largely male. I don’t know if it’s 80%, which is how his sample breaks down, but in the first survey he had only 10% female participation, so this is an increase.
@Tom
I’m not inclined to interpret the data for you either, but I will correct you on the divorce rate. The effective divorce rate in the US right now is 40%. At the 10 year mark, it’s 17% for college educated couples. Since Vox’s readership tends toward the brainy, 35% is probably twice what one might expect for those males based on demographics alone.
I saw that survey and I’ll admit to not taking it. I even looked at some of the other results on it.
I dont even know why I didn’t take it. Probably because I thought I was too young or inexperienced to do so.
Hmm. I participated in that survey. It probably doesn’t make much of a difference on the overall statistics, but maybe the questions could have been worded better? I think it’s a little unfair for a 22yo gal with a partner count of 1 to qualify as a “never married”.
@Susan
“I don’t know if it’s 80%, which is how his sample breaks down, but in the first survey he had only 10% female participation, so this is an increase.”
That makes sense. I didn’t catch the previous survey’s participation ratio.
@Jesus
It appears, at least for this sample, that cheating and being cheated on go hand in hand for alpha males. Vox suggested that may be tit-for-tat in response to alpha cheating, though it’s hard to know who cheated first, who retaliated, etc. But once both parties are cheating, I would imagine the risk of divorce increases sharply, whether the cheating is known or not.
“I think it’s a little unfair for a 22yo gal with a partner count of 1 to qualify as a “never married”. ”
So, you lost your V card? Sorry for being nosy..but I read it as that.
@ WW:
Oh yeah.
@ Jesus Mahoney at 11,
+1.
There should be no place for this degree of cynicism.
Sure, there is plenty wrong with modern woman, I agree. And I am a woman myself. (And we all know that men are totally blameless of course).
But it helps no-one to be THIS cynical.
The “more sexually alpha a man is, the more likely it is that he will be betrayed by his wife” line caught my eye too. Vox has some interesting speculation on it.
It occurs to me that this may also have something to do with the alpha’s lack of consideration for consequences. They just don’t care about lots of things, so long as they get what they want.
“But once both parties are cheating, I would imagine the risk of divorce increases sharply, whether the cheating is known or not.”
And when the divorce happens, the men find out who the real alpha is. At least according to society.
SayWhaat-It’s nice to see other people on this blog get what they want when they initially came in a state of frustration.
@WW #24
Fingers crossed.. hahaha
Most likely more men were availible to take part, with similar percentages of men/women opting not to take the survey.
This is the FAR more likely explanation. Most of the women who read Alpha Game are married, religious, and younger than the men there. Their relative inexperience with men was very clear, not only from their N counts, but from their reports of their premarital relationships. Very few of them are divorced.
While there are many, many flaws with the survey, it is far from useless. The fact that it raises more questions than it answers is actually a good thing. Moreover, its purpose was very different than most people understood, as I was interested in seeing if there was a discernable pattern between premarital cheating and marital infidelity. Unfortunately, there is so much of the former that the only useful lessons are the obvious ones, chiefly, if an individual, especially a woman, has multiple “serious” relationships and cheats on any of them, he or she will usually be unfaithful in marriage.
But it was informative to learn how much premarital infidelity there is. The moral is not to be too surprised when your supposedly exclusive boyfriend or girlfriend cheats on you since the chances are one-in-three. And if he or she is high N, it’s more like three-in-four.
I should also mention that it was readily apparent which women were HUS readers and which were AG readers. Additionally, both male and female behavioral patterns are so distinct that if I knew the first two answers, I could so readily anticipate what the rest would be that I was often filling out the spreadsheet based on the first two answers and then correcting occasionally as needed. If someone said 1 and 0 (one serious girlfriend, didn’t cheat on her) then they would usually continue with Married, Faithful, Not Betrayed, 1-3 partners.
If, on the other hand, they said 3+ and 1+, then they would often continue with either Unmarried, NA, NA, 10+ partners or Married, and either Unfaithful/Betrayed, (or both) and 10+ partners. It’s really pretty obvious when you look at the data in spreadsheet form.
>> “+1.
There should be no place for this degree of cynicism.
Sure, there is plenty wrong with modern woman, I agree. And I am a woman myself. (And we all know that men are totally blameless of course).
But it helps no-one to be THIS cynical.”
Cosigned. Susan’s done a lot to clear up the hostility towards women, but I think it will take some time until the atmosphere improves.
Sorry, I should have worded that better. The atmosphere has already improved a LOT, but there’s still some tension.
Wow, that stat drives the point home.
“While there are many, many flaws with the survey, it is far from useless. The fact that it raises more questions than it answers is actually a good thing. Moreover, its purpose was very different than most people understood, as I was interested in seeing if there was a discernable pattern between premarital cheating and marital infidelity. Unfortunately, there is so much of the former that the only useful lessons are the obvious ones, chiefly, if an individual, especially a woman, has multiple “serious” relationships and cheats on any of them, he or she will usually be unfaithful in marriage.”
So the saying ‘once a cheater, always a cheater’ is pretty accurate, huh?
I have a hard time accepting that only 20 partners for a guy is alpha—that number seems a bit low to me.
Other than that, there’s nothing terribly earth shattering in these results…
That makes sense. I didn’t catch the previous survey’s participation ratio.
Yes I hope VD is planning to do this survey every year with increasing readership we could get even more accurate results.
I did the survey but I didn’t asked my husband to do so, he finds filling surveys boring, but maybe next year I could mention it to him.
Tom- yes of course.
still I always welcome data on these issue, no matter the limitations on quality/quantity.
If only 59 girls responded how many had 10+ partners?
This may be important when judging the justification for Susan’s final assertion.
To anyone new here I would point out that I have peers who have 10+partners who are faithful and married with kids.
And others have posted similar reports.
There is also research from UK RELATE that suggests young/virginal marriages have a higher than average chance of dissolving.
My alternative advice would be to find someone you fancy, love and respect and to judge them as an individual. Much more likely to be happy in the long run.
Sue,
Absolutely, even looking at the raw data as it was being compiled, I was struck how the cheating and being cheated on went hand-in-hand. I was being flip in my comment to Tom. I imagine that cheating would cause an almost irreparable rift between a man and a woman.
My question is, why were more women hesitant to take the survey?
I didn’t take it because it didn’t feel anonymous enough to me.
The survey confirms that more sexual partners before a marriage means more instability of the marriage. What I didn’t expect was men’s sexual partner count influences women’s inclination to cheat. There was high correlation. Was this a subconscience behavior on the part of women to cheat on their men?
Men with 1 to 3 partners, Women cheat at 14%, Men cheat at 3%. What a difference.
If only 59 girls responded how many had 10+ partners?
13 of the 59, or 22%. Of them, three had married at some point and ten had hever married. All three of the 10+ ever-married had cheated and were betrayed in their marriages. By contrast, none of the 24 ever-married women with 1-3 partners had cheated and four of the 24 had been betrayed.
My alternative advice would be to find someone you fancy, love and respect and to judge them as an individual. Much more likely to be happy in the long run.
This strongly indicates that you do not understand either statistics or the concept of probability. Of course there are high N marriages where no one has been unfaithful. But your odds are being cheated on are much higher if you choose such a partner, 14x higher if you are a woman. Is your prospective husband’s Alpha status worth a 1,300% increased chance of being betrayed? That’s a judgment call. The important thing is that a woman can make an informed choice.
I know reformed ALPHAS as well as shamelessly unfaithful ALPHAS personally myself. I do not, however, know any shamelessly unfaithful BETA males, or even any unfaithful ones, for that matter.
I imagine that cheating would cause an almost irreparable rift between a man and a woman.
That too was surprising. In the MAJORITY of cases reported, cheating had not led to divorce. It’s apparently rather more forgivable than most people who have not experienced it can imagine. I suspect many of the definitive statements about it are merely defensive posturing intended to influence spousal behavior rather than reliable declarations of intent. Female cheating does appear to be more dependably fatal, but this is not because women are more forgiving of male infidelity, rather, unfaithful women usually don’t want to be forgiven, they simply want out.
I have a hard time accepting that only 20 partners for a guy is alpha—that number seems a bit low to me.
The statistics were clear in the previous survey. 15+ is Alpha, 30+ is High Alpha. Don’t be a Pauline and always be aware of your own confirmation bias. Every grotty, spotty guy who will never get a second look from a girl, much less a date, counts just as much as you, Mr. Special and oh-so-Studly Snowflake.
I will like to comment on the mutual cheating. IME there are several causes. I agree that there is a part of them that are seeking revenge from a infidelity but there can be other factors.
First PUA’s promise that once you are a woman’s Alpha she will be your sexual slave for ever never to look at other man. I will say that many hardcore Alpha chasers are always on the look out of a bigger better Alpha and they are willing to gamble a quick sexual liaison to “test” both the Alphaness and the chances of trading up if their Alpha is also cheating they have more chances to get away with it because he won’t notice and they are also more forgiving because they want to keep the Alpha around till they can trade up and their cheating covers their own cheating.
There are not so hardcore Alpha chasers that cheat out of neglect as much as men like to dream that they can keep more than one woman 100% satisfied this is rarely the case. In those moments when he is sexually attentive to other woman (women) another Alpha can decide to take care of her for the time being, there are men that actually specialized on neglected women.
Of course all this is anecdotal but I though on chime in.
Great stuff, VD. You are totally right that we can get a lot of important info even from far from perfect studies like this one.
I find the results from #2 interesting. Are those people still married to the unfaithful spouse? If so, many people stick around with unfaithful spouses.
I want to make note of something. Why is it that when a man cheats, he is usually labelled all kinds of bad stuff. The blame is usually put on him, and he takes most of the heat.
When a woman cheats, it seems that many people have the opinion that “if her husband was keeping her happy, she wouldn’t have stepped out…” So again, when a man cheats its his fault. And, when a woman cheats, its still the man’s fault. Either he was a cad cheating on her, he was abusive, he was too beta…
Where is the outrage? Where is all that damning conviction? I have seen first hand marriages explode because the wife “stepped out”, and somehow the woman usually walks away with a few scrapes and bruises, yet the man is left with most of the blame, and half of his stuff. And I’m not even talking about family court here, I’m talking about the “social court” of public opinion. So its easier for women to get into relationships, and easier for them to get out of them. And, they seem to be getting more benefit FROM them. I’m seeing a bit of an imbalance here…
But wait! There is a fix! Men just need to learn game to keep their GF/Wives interested! So, even the responsibility for her NOT cheating is now HIS task.
There are two big lurking variables that, I think, are dancing on the numbers in the background here. One is the attractiveness of the person. More attractive people are, I believe, more inclined to have a higher count. Or, perhaps more plainly (heh), less attractive people are likely to have a lower count.
To make the point bluntly. Consider the picture found here…(work safe unless you’re in a church)
http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/113036/Envy/
Which of the five young people pictured is going to have the highest count? Hard to say. That will depend on what Vox Day was attempting to measure. Who will have the lowest? Not so hard to say. Unless she has the other lurking variable…money.
(No solid evidence arm-waving ahead!)
In my line of work (equine vet) I do grunt work for some rich people. In this part of the country, that’s oil people. A few are really physically unattractive and a few (no more than you’d expect in any sample) are really…weird, evil and/or amoral people. None lack for attention from some attractive people. Why? Money.
If Vox Day could normalize his sample for looks and money, that would be interesting.
The notion that alphas get cheated on more is to me the most interesting result. A core tenet of game theory is that women can only love one man at a time whereas it’s far easier for a man to love more than one woman at a time. Female cheating is almost always the product of falling out of love wth her husband or BF. But women, supposedly, are far more inclined to love and be attracted to alphas. Therefore, you’d assume that betas get cheated on more than alphas, and in fact most game writers appear to believe this is true.
So what explains this result? Three possibilities: 1) The sample size is so small and non-randomized/representative that we can’t conclude anything from it; 2) Girls why marry or partner with alphas tend to be high count themselves, hence it’s their own number and psychological baggage that causes the cheating, not the alphaness of the guy; 3) The game teaching that betas get cheated on more than alphas is just wrong.
Excoffier – I would venture it is a combination of 2 and 3. I can’t speak to 1, since I’m really not into stats, but I can easily see that alphas tend to end up with high count women who are prone to cheating, and that the PUA community is shading their advice to enhance the allure of the game. Besides, PUA guys really don’t get involved with all that pesky marriage stuff. Who cares if your girl cheats when you have 5 others waiting in the eves?
according to Marriage101.org
The following statement about the divorce rates in America reveals all the details about distribution. According to enrichment journal on the divorce rates in America, the divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%; the divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%; the divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73%. According to discovery channel, couples with children have a slightly lower rate of divorce than childless couples. Sociologists believe that childlessness is also a common cause of divorce. The absence of children leads to loneliness and weariness and even in the United States; at least 66 per cent of all divorced couples are childless. According to some experts, however, divorce rates tend to go down primarily because more couples live together without marrying. Other researchers have documented what they call “the divorce divide,” contending that divorce rates are indeed falling substantively among college-educated couples but not among less-affluent, less-educated couples.
The divorce rate in America is more than 50%, which means one in two couples will break up.
Ted D, personally I would find it understandable if the wife never puts out for the husband and it’s a sexless relationship, that the husband cheats on the wife. I would also find it understandable if the wife is unbearable and horrible that the husband has an emotional affair and/or leaves her. Nobody should be subjected to a life of misery and not be able to have love.
Personally I try to make things good for my husband, and I don’t take things for granted. I don’t meet in the middle or wait for the proverbial 75% effort put out by the man. I put in 100% effort when I can, and I only slack off if I feel miserable (sick or pregnancy sickness). I hold up my end of the relationship, and I tolerate a lot (which is why I stayed in a bad one for so long previously).
Maybe other people look at these situations based on gender, but I judge based on individual circumstances and actions. There’s a thread on another site where the wife ran up 35k in debt, lied about it chronically, mentally unstable and seems to be cheating with a drug dealer or at least something fishy going on, and I fully agree with the suggestions to the husband that he lawyers up, divorces her and protects himself. Why should it matter whether the perpetrator is male or female? Bad is bad is bad.
This one seems the most depressing for guys:
I understand that their is selection bias, but, if a man keeps his number low, he is 4X more likely to be cheated on than cheat himself.
As he increases his notch count, he starts to even the playing field.
@Ted D
Who is “many people?” I don’t feel that way, no one says that here. Feminists might say that, but so what? We don’t listen to them anyway. I can find plenty of overt misogyny at blogs you’ve read. No one has a monopoly on unfairness and knee-jerk stupidity.
@Pip
That pic of the large Marge in the hallway is hilarious.
I think it’s beyond cool that you’re an equine vet. I bet the ladies love that. I’m picturing you showing up on some ranch, and the skimpily clad Mrs. enticing you into the house for a glass of sweet tea.
Susan, I think there is a cultural meme along the lines that Ted said, although I would argue that it’s more complicated (nuanced?).
Overall it goes something like this: Since men are hard wired to want to screw as many women as they can, since this is their natural state, it’s incumbent on men to get that under control. Women do not cause male cheating most of the time (although a frigid wife might be partly to blame) because even men who are married to women who put out enthusiastically still feel the natural biological urge to screw around. A man who gives in to that urge is a pig. His wife didn’t make him do it, he simply succumbed to temptation.
Women OTOH are not biologically programmed to screw around; they only want one man. Hence when a woman cheats there must be something really wrong at home, something really wrong with her husband for her to overcome her natural instinct for monogamy. So she is less to blame and perhaps even blameless.
The flaw in the above is obvious. It grasps the basic male biological urge (polygamy) but not the basic female biological urge (hypergamy). It’s not that women naturally want one man, meaning the same man, forever, it’s that they naturally want one at a time, the best they can get at a given time. This is their biological urge which they need to control. But since the popular meme does not recognize or understand this, it does not hold women to account for it.
OTOH, there is an extent to which conventional wisdom blames men less and women more. It’s far more common for a woman to forgive a man’s cheating than the reverse. Plus, it’s far more socially acceptable for a woman to take back a cheater than the reverse. A woman who takes back a cheater has a certain sympathy whereas a man who does so is simply regarded as a chump.
@Escoffier
Yeah, when I saw Vox’s results I pictured ovulating wives running out and seeking sex with beta males so they could have emo sons. Vox points out in his original post that both Roissy and Athol suggest that a woman can OD on alpha – and then wants beta traits. That happens for me within 5 minutes, YMMV.
That pic of the large Marge in the hallway is hilarious.
You and I had two very different reactions. I felt bad for the girl.
FWIW, practically all of the alphas I know, from wealthy businessmen to street thugs, have bad relationships or their relationships end badly. So this is nothing new to me, but it’s useful to those who haven’t been exposed to the worst SMP yet.
Agree with Ramble, can someone explain the hilarity of that picture?
It’s easy to see the hilarity in the picture if you’ve never been on the outside looking in.
VD: “That too was surprising. In the MAJORITY of cases reported, cheating had not led to divorce. It’s apparently rather more forgivable than most people who have not experienced it can imagine. I suspect many of the definitive statements about it are merely defensive posturing intended to influence spousal behavior rather than reliable declarations of intent. Female cheating does appear to be more dependably fatal, but this is not because women are more forgiving of male infidelity, rather, unfaithful women usually don’t want to be forgiven, they simply want out. ”
I believe that cheating alphas are usually forgiven because their women are aware of the possibilities from the beginning and are willing to take those risks.
Women who consider cheating a dealbreaker don’t typically marry alphas.
It’s also been my experience that when women cheat, the relationship is much more likely to end.
However, just because the cheated wives don’t file, doesn’t mean they don’t get the guy back in some way. Those couples don’t go sailing off into the sunset, they just tolerate each other.
When a woman cheats, it seems that many people have the opinion that “if her husband was keeping her happy, she wouldn’t have stepped out…” So again, when a man cheats its his fault. And, when a woman cheats, its still the man’s fault. Either he was a cad cheating on her, he was abusive, he was too beta…
I think this is due to the common perception that men cheat for “variety,” but women cheat for revenge. On a personal level, every female cheater I’ve known personally cheated after catching her husband cheating. I don’t justify that because I can’t see making a whore out of yourself just because your husband is a pig. OTOH, it’s hard to fault a revenge cheater as much as one migh fault the initial cheater.
Also, I think you are seeing a reaction to the Doug 1 mentality that says it is natural and not harmful for a guy to cheat.
Pip #43
Great post. We see a lot of posts in the ‘sphere about how male attractiveness lasts longer than female. I would love to see a study of that phenomenon that takes income into account. I strongly suspect that rich old man are more attractive than poor old men.
Susan – “Feminists might say that, but so what? We don’t listen to them anyway. I can find plenty of overt misogyny at blogs you’ve read. No one has a monopoly on unfairness and knee-jerk stupidity.”
Just because we here at HUS don’t listen to feminists, doesn’t mean most of society still doesn’t. I know that most everyone HERE thinks differently, but what flies here is NOT the common perception by any leap of the imagination. And no doubt there is a TON of misogyny on the ‘net, but not in public discourse. Why? Because misogyny is not PC, but feminists ripping on men is always welcome.
So my beef is, no one has a monopoly, but Feminists have public support.
J: “the Doug 1 mentality that says it is natural and not harmful for a guy to cheat.”
There are a lot of Dougs in Latin-American (and I’m sure elsewhere in the world).
If a man cheats, he can’t help himself and it was always the woman’s fault for not being hot enough/a good enough cook/a good homemaker. It’s still PC to hear this on Spanish speaking channels. Except that now the women are becoming Dougs too.
It’s disgusting and a mess.
It’s easy to see the hilarity in the picture if you’ve never been on the outside looking in.
Interesting point.
Well yup, I’m always on the shitty end of the results.
Esco#44
Let me apply Ockham’s Razor to your post. Alphas are more likely to be cheated on because low number women are repulsed by high number men. A man can’t cheat on you if you refuse to get involved with him in the first place.
Perhaps because I am a woman, I was considerably less surprised by that particular result than you were. Men, especially those in the ‘sphere, don’t believe us when we say that alpha can be repulsive…but it can.
@ 62
“He jests at scars that never felt a wound”.
Wm. Shakespeare, “Romeo and Juliet”
Hope toTed D: personally I would find it understandable if the wife never puts out for the husband and it’s a sexless relationship, that the husband cheats on the wife. I would also find it understandable if the wife is unbearable and horrible that the husband has an emotional affair and/or leaves her. Nobody should be subjected to a life of misery and not be able to have love.
It’s understandable for both men and women in that position, but it’s also sort of passive-aggressive. I think it’s incumbent on the unhappy party to first try to repair the marriage or let the other party know that the marriage has become unbearable for them before pulling yet another person into the misery. I would prefer to see people divorce when infidelty is inevitable than to see cheating. A clean break is healthier.
@ Sassy #1
Are you reffing Arties Johnson’s German Wehrmacht chracter from “Laugh In”? Talk about going to the vault.
@J
“We see a lot of posts in the ‘sphere about how male attractiveness lasts longer than female.”
And it does, on average, for a few more years, I think. One, because men go for looks primarily. Women go for a slightly broader spectrum of traits (which certainly includes looks). But it doesn’t last as long as many of the chest-beating manosphere Walter Mittys would have you believe.
“I would love to see a study of that phenomenon that takes income into account. I strongly suspect that rich old man are more attractive than poor old men.”
I’d bet my last dollar that’s the case.
@Susan
“That pic of the large Marge in the hallway is hilarious.”
It’s sad and funny to me.
“I think it’s beyond cool that you’re an equine vet.”
Thank you!
“I bet the ladies love that. I’m picturing you showing up on some ranch, and the skimpily clad Mrs. enticing you into the house for a glass of sweet tea.”
That happened once! A woman in her fifties near Kerrville. (Y-O ranch) She had me over for a lunch she planned and afterward, learning I did Bodypump at the Y, tried the “Oh, you workout? I know Burmese massage therapy (or something) Let’s meet after your class!”
I had no idea what was afoot until she got all handsy. That was honestly the first time that had ever happened to me.
But…I’m straight. Mighty awkward to make my quick exit after that with her all apologetic.
70% of my classmates at A&M were female. Fertile ground, fellas.
Eva “Pip” Vandergeld
@ tvmunson
I wasn’t really referencing anything. It was just my way of indicating that I was pondering the information.
On another note, I didn’t participate in the survey because I didn’t really pay attention to the fact that there was one. My life has recently been a whirlwind of sorts.
The results don’t really surprise me though.
I also felt bad for the large girl in the linked photo. Additionally, I had negative feelings about the “cuties” sticking their butts out in the mirror.
Although my looks were comparable to theirs when I was that age, I hate to see women “lead” with their looks. It sends the wrong message and attracts the wrong kind of guy.
Stop snowflaking you goddamn unicorn. Lol.
But seriously, I agreed with your whole post. Though I dont think its only repulsive because of the number of women an “alpha” has slept with I think the risk involved in dating that man is repulsive. Any sane woman realizes that in order to have a happy LTR or marriage that its best to minimize risks. Hell, most sane people realize this.
Lol, why?
I like women like this. When they are young and hot and getting tons of attention, it never dawns on them that one day they wont be young and hot and getting lots of attention. These women seem to be the ones that fight the hardest against the inevitable “wall”.
Charm: “Any sane woman realizes that in order to have a happy LTR or marriage that its best to minimize risks. Hell, most sane people realize this.”
The problem is that there are plenty of insane people out there.
What I don’t understand is why any sane people would want a relationship with the insane.
@ tvmunson, 65 & JM, 56
Well put, definitely clarifies my initial thoughts on it being just a lack of empathy.
@Anonymous
Lol. I have no idea either. Maybe they think they can save the person? Change the person? In either case, I think they get what they deserve.
“What I don’t understand is why any sane people would want a relationship with the insane.”
From what I’ve been told, crazy people are great in the sack. Seriously. I had a friend in college that went through a handful of batshit crazy women. I asked him after months of seeing HUGE drama around him all the time, why the hell he kept going after those types of women. His reply? “They fuck like there’s no tomorrow.” Not worth it to me by a long shot…
@Ted D
One problem: You risk getting one of those crazy women pregnant and that could ruin the rest of your life. Is pussy really worth it? Really?
I guess its just another one of those short term pleasures people seek without considering the full long term ramifications of their actions.
@Charm, 77
Many people don’t think that far ahead, and that’s not a knock on them.
70% of my classmates at A&M were female. Fertile ground, fellas.
Pip, 2 questions for you:
1. How many of those girls ended up married?
2. How many, back during there schools days, would have said, “Some day, I want to get married”?
You will have to guess on the second question?
@Escoffier
I’ll let that stand if you can cite a single non-Game source for it. Good luck.
@drg
Which is why I stay the hell away from people like that. Sadly, there are a ton of them. People really don’t realize how they could screw the rest of their lives up by acting stupidly during their 20′s. My ex bfs sister was raped at a party by a guy who was black out drunk so he doesn’t remember. It could have been a misunderstanding, she could be lying or whatever, but he’ll never be able to say since he doesn’t remember.
@Ramble
Are you saying that was a candid shot?
@JM, @Ramble, @drg
Do you guys also feel sorry for Melissa McCarthy?
@ Susan
I’m with Ramble, what about that picure was funny?
I practically teared up for her.
I have no clue who Melissa McCarthy is.
MUNSON’S POST EQUINOX FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION # 1
WHY CHEAT?
Let’s begin with a simple proposition: thought precedes action. A person who does a violent act has considered violence many, many times ,luxuriated in visions of empowerment in its infliction, enacted the fantasies as a sort of rehearsal, preparing , not unwittingly, for the day the violent impulse will be sated. Sexual acts fit the same pattern. So let’s knock this shit off that people get overcome like bovines in season; anyone that impulsive is insane.
In the marital context, it occurs to me that the cheater’s motivation has, as its animus, an urge to protect someone or something. Think about it. Your family, an image, your career-to get covert side action, you have to want to protect.I suppose a case could be made that cheating is sometimes an experiment, seeing if a raltionship outside is going to buy it off for you. But it seems to me you’re holding on to something while you desecrate it. Like going out into your garage and wacking your Mercedes with a ball peen hammer instead of selling it.
So the cheat impulse arises from a dissatifactionand with the marriage and urge such that a cheater will risk all kids of hell for transitory or,what so often happens, non-transitory relief (i e leaving spouse for 3rd party). As Mr. Spock would say : “It appears most illogical”. Mend it, or get out.Nature abhors a vacuum, and cheating creates one. What gets drwn into it is pain for the innocent and and fleeting satiation for the narcissist. And if the satiation is not fleeting, he should had out after its source with as much dignity as can be mustered (not a hell of a lot IMO).
“From what I’ve been told, crazy people are great in the sack. Seriously. I had a friend in college that went through a handful of batshit crazy women. I asked him after months of seeing HUGE drama around him all the time, why the hell he kept going after those types of women. His reply? “They fuck like there’s no tomorrow.””
I’ve known my fair share of these “batshit crazy” women, and I’m not all that convinced that, as a group, they have superior skills, of course, depending on what other group they’re being compared to.
@Ted D
Fair enough. Sometimes I get the sense that you are frustrated with all women, including the women here. I just wanted to point out that Not. All. Women. Are. Like. That.
@SW, 83
I feel bad about the situation, it isn’t dependent on the type (physical look or otherwise) that I feel sorry for. I assume that is what you are referring to since I only looked up what Melissa McCarthy looks like.
1. Shes famous
2. Shes rich
3. She has a pretty face and nice body shape
The girl in the picture was none of those things. Sure she could probably lose weight, but her skin probably wouldnt shrink back completely and her face might still be unfortunate looking. While most people are average looking, I do feel bad for people who are truly “ugly”. Especially considering that we don’t choose what we look like.
@Jason
FWIW, if anyone with your count is a good bet, I’d be willing to say it’s you. You’re unusually introspective and objective about your own behavior, especially for a guy in his early 20s. You’re honest and open-minded. It sounds to me like you’re a one-woman man at heart – you got lucky in college, and now you’re looking for something more. It happens – there are tons of good looking beta guys with high counts (not saying this is you, IDK). To the men here that will be an oxymoron, but think about it. Cute guy scores the hookup, the girl doesn’t have any idea he’s a nice guy in alpha clothing. If she’s a slut she’ll kick him to the curb asap – he pumps, she dumps. But he still can rack up the numbers. I know a handful of guys in this boat.
@Charm, 81
I realised this blog is focused on the context of SMP and relationships, but I do think and appreciate the ‘ability’ to focus on the here and now is important in living life. However, I agree with you and in most of the major areas of my life, I am pretty conservative.
Choose to be the exception.
Susan – ” I just wanted to point out that Not. All. Women. Are. Like. That.”
I have used NAWALT more in the past month than since the first day finding the ‘sphere. I’m here mostly because the female regulars here are substantially more understanding.
I really am chomping at the bit for some social change. Unfortunately, when it comes to men’s rights, there is way more anger than actual desire to act. I’m working on just getting this out of my system, and being quiet. I get you and the regulars upset here, and I truly don’t want to even post at most ‘sphere sites because I know damn well I’m way to reasonable for any of them to tolerate. I’ll be a white knight mangina beta chump within minutes of posting. I get why they are angry, but I don’t get why they insist that anyone participating has to be as angry and bitter as they are. As a group, they aren’t much better than feminists.
@Pip
Whoa, I thought you were male! Ugh, my mistake, sorry. I still think your profession is cool.
I don’t equate MRA with PUAs nor necessarily with the entire manosphere.
Are you saying that was a candid shot?
Oh, I have no idea. I only know what my immediate reaction was.
Do you guys also feel sorry for Melissa McCarthy?
Regardless of her eating habits, if she were in a similar situation, then, ‘Yes’, I would have felt bad for her. That doesn’t mean I would be completely sympathetic to every choice she had made leading up to that moment.
I have no clue who Melissa McCarthy is.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Melissa+McCarthy
Charm, I was with you until:
She has a pretty face and nice body shape
I understand what you are trying to say, but, no. Her body shape is not nice.
She was just nominated for an Oscar for her role in Bridesmaids. She’s an obese woman who has ridden her looks and her sense of humor to fame and fortune. My point was, the poster was posed. The large woman in the coat lurking in the hallway was hired to model that character. I don’t think we need to feel sorry for her. That’s just patronizing.
I finally went to the picture. I really didn’t find it funny at all. I wasn’t sad for anyone, but I thought the young women taking their picture looked just like “special little snowflake” girls…
Susan, I get the idea that you really, really, REALLY, liked Jason’s picture.
And that, of course, is fine. Just sayin’.
@Ted, 101
Not sure if you missed it, but you might want to look again.
@SW, 101
The large woman in the coat lurking in the hallway was hired to model that character.
That may well be true, but the scenario framed is the point, not that it was staged.
@Ramble
Lol, after looking at more pictures of her, I’d have to agree. Though for her size, her body shape could be much much worse. Some women carry weight horribly while others carry it quite well.
@Ramble
Do you disagree that Jason has shown unusual insight into his own behavior? If I have a soft spot for him, it’s because he went from being a manwhore to wanting a relationship. A reformed alpha is a big improvement, and one that should be given positive reinforcement. He also was initially upset about his gf’s count, but got over it. I think he seems like a good guy.
@drg
The scenario was intended as humor. Models were paid to enact the scene. I’m not sure who you’re feeling sorry for. Real fat women in yellow coats? When was the last time you gave an overweight woman some special attention? In three years of blogging, this is the first time I have ever witnessed men showing empathy for an obese woman. Usually, they are quick to say extremely harsh things on this issue. Like calling them mastodons, for example.
@ Susan
We don’t feel sorry for her because she is fat. She still needs to hit a treadmill before she starts costing everyone else money.
We feel bad for her, as human beings not men (apparently men =/= human beings), because she is left out. She is the outsider, the loser whatever you want to call her. Thats why we feel bad, it would be the same if she was in a wheelchair and they were all playing soccer. Or the kid who doesn’t get picked for the soccer game at recess, thats what we feel bad about. It has NOTHING to do with her SMV.
Do you disagree that Jason has shown unusual insight into his own behavior?
No, I don’t disagree, but Roissy has shown unusual insight into his own behaviour as well. I am not saying that Jason is like Roissy, but introspection is simply that.
I have a soft spot for him, it’s because he went from being a manwhore to wanting a relationship.
You make that sound like it is unusual. Remember, almost every manwhore of a rockstar has gotten married. As Michael Blowhard once put it, [paraphrasing]“If sex was the only thing that mattered to men, rockstars would m=never get married.”[/paraphrasing]
You go right ahead an like Jason, that is fine. My guess is that he is a pretty good guy.
But for all you bluster about alpha asshats, well, Jason pumped and dumped with the best of them. And, before you bring up something like, “well, he was honest about it”, again, I am willing to bet that guys like Roissy and Roosh and Rollo have been pretty honest with their Pump and Dumps as well.
…it would be the same if she was in a wheelchair and they were all playing soccer.
Good point. If that had been a staged picture of some scrawny kid not being picked for the football team, I would have felt bad.
Now, she may have eaten her way into that situation, but, had a non-fat girl with a big ass and unattractive face been the one left out, I would have felt just as bad, if not worse.
@ Susan
Cont’d
That you find this funny is distubing.
When I was in gradeschool there was a blind guy in our class, slightly disabled and very small.
One time at recess a bunch of kids started asking him what kind of movies he liked to watch.
The people who laughed are what I would define as horrible people. I give it a pass because they were children.
As for my position, at the time, I did nothing but think it was wrong. I should have done more.
@ Ramble
I agree I would feel worse for the person who was brn/made that way than the person who did it to themeselves. That doesn’t men I won’t feel bad for the person who did it to theirself.
@SW, 107
Lokland got it. The whole point of this blog, is getting those that feel left out in touch with the others that feel the same, ultimately connecting more people together. How is it that this doesn’t translate to the way you feel about the situation; I think it is easy to dismiss this merely as a staged photo.
Now, if the photo were a little more over the top, you know, almost cartoonish, then I would probably find it somewhat funny.
@Lokland
Of course it does, that’s the point of the poster. She envies the other girls their higher SMV. In responding to the poster, I took that at face value. I didn’t think about her resting metabolic rate and whether her genes predispose her to the accumulation of adipose tissue.
Since you are highly critical of overweight women in general, I’d say you’ve now got both eyes logjammed.
@Ramble
How about a poster with four fat girls chowing down on Twinkies, and a beautiful creature looking in from the hallway. Would you pity her then?
This conversation has reached a nonsensical level, so I’ll bow out here.
Like I said, converts are welcome. St. Augustine and all that. If Jason were here boasting about his getting girls to cheat, his soft harem and being generally repulsive like some other occasional commenters, I would be far less welcoming.
And he doesn’t exhibit the sociopathy of the Ro’s, so that is an invalid comparison.
How about a poster with four fat girls chowing down on Twinkies, and a beautiful creature looking in from the hallway. Would you pity her then?
What, exactly, is that other girl missing out on? Diabetes?
Sue,
I didn’t think about her resting metabolic rate, either. I just thought about the self-loathing that a person in that situation would likely feel. Of course, that’s what the viewer is supposed to think about, since it’s entitled “Envy.”
But you’re right, this conversation has become a bit absurd.
Like I said, converts are welcome.
Well, then, most manwhoring alpha asshats are, or will be, welcome then. Which is fine.
If Jason were here boasting about his getting girls to cheat, his soft harem and being generally repulsive like some other occasional commenters, I would be far less welcoming.
No, he talked about his previous harem with a soft touch.
He definitely played it right. Respect.
@Lokland
If you stop at the Customer Service desk, they’ll give you a full refund.
Really, dude? The sanctimony is over the top. You’re on record as wanting to deny health care to the obese.
Roissy or Roosh reformed? You bet! You know very well that satisfies one of my fantasies – a fantasy which does not include me, as it happens. I won’t be holding my breath, though. I will say I think Roosh is ripe for the picking, but his living comes from his being a “sexual jackal” (his words) so he’s in a tough spot.
@susan
My first reaction was that it was photoshopped rather than posed. I agree that it wasn’t candid.
If the picture was that of a nerd looking in while some jocks were getting attention from women, everyone here would think it was funny. Calm down white knighters. The real take away from the photo should be how accepting it is of the lame attention whoring of the other women.
@ Susan
“Since you are highly critical of overweight women in general, I’d say you’ve now got both eyes logjammed.”
No, I have problems with fat people. The state of their genitals is irrelevant. If anything men are worse off because heart attacks start sooner and we tend to have more visceral than hip fat which is worse for CVD.
“You’re on record as wanting to deny health care to the obese.”
I’m on record for giving tax incentives to become/stay healthy. Actually if you want to get technical I’m on board with the idea some bureacrat proposed on giving tax incentives to become/stay healthy.
Hey, I am not actually arguing with you. I am, however, highlighting the basic idea of:
To “Reformed” Manwhore: “Oh, you must meet my friend Tracy. She is cute and single.”
To “Reformed” Slut: “Uh, you can’t un-ring that bell.”
If the picture was that of a nerd looking in while some jocks were getting attention from women, everyone here would think it was funny.
Not everyone.
“I’ll let that stand if you can cite a single non-Game source for it. Good luck”
Roger Devlin. Say what you will about him, and yes he is cited and admired by many gamers, but he is not one himself and never has written about game at all as far as I can tell. In fact, that is Roissy’s one criticism about Devlin, that Devlin has nothing to say about game.
Roissy often links credible scientific and social science studies that confirm or support key game concepts.
Beyond that, the theory does explain what actually happens better than the alternative explanation, which is that women are naturally monogamous. They only SEEM naturally monogamous compared to men whose natural polygamy/promiscuity is far more obvious and even flaunted.
We are all willing to accept EvBio explanations for men’s indiscriminate horniness but apparently it’s a lot harder to accept EvBio explanations for a different, but complementary female sexual impulse. Evolutionarily, there is no advantage in women being “naturally monogamous.” They are far better off seeking the best possible genes they can get at a given time. This is in fact what we see all over the animal kingdom (the exceptions are rare) so it would make sense that it also carries over into human behavior the same way that male sexual behavior does.
JESS..: My alternative advice would be to find someone you fancy, love and respect and to judge them as an individual. Much more likely to be happy in the long run.
—-
VD…This strongly indicates that you do not understand either statistics or the concept of probability. Of course there are high N marriages where no one has been unfaithful. But your odds are being cheated on are much higher if you choose such a partner, 14x higher if you are a woman. Is your prospective husband’s Alpha status worth a 1,300% increased chance of being betrayed? That’s a judgment call. The important thing is that a woman can make an informed choice.
——-
It does neither. I was hinting that the small sample size makes it difficult to draw such alarmist conclusions as Susan did.
Hell, she has defined risky marriage bets on the back of 3 married unfaithful women. I have a far larger sample of married women with 10+ exes just within my own sphere. They have not cheated.
And I have never said ‘number’ is a complete irrelevance- its one of many factors worth bearing in mind when deciding on a LTR but to make one isolated factor a ‘deal breaker’ is not at all wise (nor as common as some say on here).
Hence the reference to seeing somebody as an individual.
Ted,
I can tell you that there is some truth to this.
@ Ramble, Passer_By
Not everyone.
+1.
Susan,
My statement was a bit tongue in cheek, but I appreciate the sentiment. I had fun in college and the 6 months post college, but I’m just tired of the scene. I honestly do want to be with just one person, assuming a great connection, and knowing that I have options without acting on it is more than enough. Plus, my own actions and what I saw of others made me bitter about women, which I really don’t want to be and I’m trying to work through (some of that came out on my gf when drinking too much for St. Paddys day, and I’m not proud of that). I can’t say sites like this always help with that, but it’s hard to look away.
Well now I feel kinda shitty about what I just posted. I thought I was completely over it, and I’m probably like 95% there, but I was hit right in the face by this reality this weekend, and I couldn’t help but be set off a little. Without getting into too many details I met a former hookup of my gf (I guessed correctly by the guys actions, as it was no doing of my gf and she was probably somewhat embarassed overall), and being as unbiased as I can be, dude was a total douche, like the kind of asshat I was at one point.
I can honestly say that what set me off wasn’t any insecurity on my part, but rather the guys blatantly smug ‘I got there first’ attitude that male competition revolves around. Alcohol and being really tired didn’t help either. But I’ve done shit like that before, so karma and all that.
Tact sir, tact.
Jason, wow that sounds like such an awkward and weird social dynamic. Another good reason for girls to keep their notch count low and exclusive to men who have fallen in love with them.
“but rather the guys blatantly smug ‘I got there first’ attitude that male competition revolves around.”
Yep, I get this concept 100%. Got that same feeling first time I met my SO’s ex. Then I remembered how much I enjoy helping her spend his money when the child support check comes in, and I felt much better. :-p
+1
There is a reason so many call it “Mommy Support”.
He should be thanking me for giving his kids a good home to live in.
As far as it goes, he is an OK guy to be around in mixed company. But he is a total asshat to women in general, and was particularly mean to my SO. She is the one that takes great delight in using his child support checks to “pay for” stuff for herself. The truth is, that money goes into the family fund with the rest and gets spent however necessary. It just made me feel better to frame it the way I did.
He lives out of state, as does my ex. Seems a much better deal than some of my divorced friends deal with having their exes close by.
@Ramble
This couldn’t be more perfectly timed. New post just up unringing that bell.
@Escoffier
No, Devlin doesn’t pass muster with me. He’s a radical right figure who writes for the Occidental Quarterly, which calls the Weekly Standard a Jewish, neocon magazine. Nasty stuff. He certainly qualifies as a rabid M____________. You can find plenty of MRA sites who adore him though. In any case, I reject his interpretation of hypergamy.
@Jason
Oh God. HUS as a place where you can get bitterer and bitterer about women. Sigh.
Female cheating does appear to be more dependably fatal, but this is not because women are more forgiving of male infidelity, rather, unfaithful women usually don’t want to be forgiven, they simply want out.
I would also expect that women are more likely to forgive than men are because divorcing a cheating husband means a loss of part of his income and a lower standard of living.
Charm #72
Well, you pretty much answered your own question there. I would ass though that leading with your looks means you will attract men who value looks over/instead of other qualities. You attract shallow men instead of that guy who will still love you when things go badly. Anyone can love you when your beautiful; you want the guy who’ll love you when you’re sick.
@ Ramble
“Pip, 2 questions for you:
1. How many of those girls ended up married?”
I’m just into my 30s, and the traditional DVM is halfway into her’s 20s when newly minted, so the jury is still out. But after staring at the ceiling and stroking my chin, I think I can say two-thirds are.
“2. How many, back during there schools days, would have said, “Some day, I want to get married”? You will have to guess on the second question?”
Tough to say. I didn’t hear that expression so clearly said very often, but the assumption that they (female students) would be married was strongly present in the majority of “life plans” that I heard described. I’ll answer your question by saying “most.”
To “Reformed” Slut: “Uh, you can’t un-ring that bell.”
This couldn’t be more perfectly timed. New post just up unringing that bell.
——-
Im sure Barak and the rest of the civilised world wait with baited breath for this hallowed tome.
Sue,
I think this happens with quite a lot of men who come here. I got less bitter, but maybe it’s only because I decided I’m cool with looking for an outlier.
@ Susan
“Oh God. HUS as a place where you can get bitterer and bitterer about women. Sigh.”
There hasn’t been much in the way of good news recently atleast not for guys.
At least I’m not the only one. :-p
@Lokland
Oh, I don’t know. Alphas getting cheated on the most has a certain schadenfreudian appeal.
@ Susan
Balance that with low count guys having a 5x higher likelihood of being cheated on than beaing the cheater.
Doesn’t seem like theres an option where the odds are in our favour.
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