Katie Roiphe has published an article at Slate: It’s Not Just Rush: Liberals slut-shame just as much, in which she decries the pervasive slut shaming in our society:
These judgments, about women who sleep around or sleep with the wrong people or fail to settle down, these vicious or catty bursts of rage, or calm-holier-than-thou reflections on other people’s sluttiness or condescending screeds about how pathetic or sad or distasteful or lonely or sleazy it is to live so outside of conventional life, persist through all age groups and social strata, in big cities and small towns, on television news programs watched by millions, and on liberal blogs.
What can I say? I find this development encouraging. I’m never quite sure what to make of Katie Roiphe. She’s the daughter of an ardent and famous feminist, but in 1994 she burst on the scene with The Morning After: Fear, Sex and Feminism, a book that held women accountable for choices that served to put them in danger of sexual assault. From an article at the New York Times:
One of the questions used to define rape was: ‘Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs?’ The phrasing raises the issue of agency. Why aren’t college women responsible for their own intake of alcohol or drugs? A man may give her drugs, but she herself decides to take them. If we assume that women are not all helpless and naive, then they should be responsible for their choice to drink or take drugs. “If a woman’s ‘judgment is impaired’ and she has sex, it isn’t always the man’s fault; it isn’t necessarily always rape.
Obviously, this view put her squarely at odds with sex-positive feminists, infuriating Katha Pollitt and other prominent feminists of the time. One imagines she wouldn’t be welcome, or interested in attending a local Slut Walk.
In a 1997 book review a writer for the LA Times criticized Roiphe for not embracing the Sex as Empowerment Scam:
For Roiphe, who is 28, the sexual revolution of the ’60s had nothing to do with a desire to create a more erotic and more egalitarian society. Instead, Roiphe focuses on “bikinis from France, and the Pill, and nudity in movies, and honest and open marriages, and no-fault divorces” and then notes that “paradise” mysteriously failed to materialize. She is like the theatergoer who takes her seat during the second act and then loudly whispers to everyone around her that the plot makes no sense.
Mistakenly, Roiphe believes that the sexual revolution consisted simply of “having sex with as many people as you could.” She is oblivious to the fact that the sexual revolution–at least for many women–was less about mindless promiscuity than about finding newer, truer, less sexist and more ecstatic ways of being sexual. It was about the experience, not just the numbers; about creating something, not just getting lucky.
Fifteen years later, we all know that few found “newer, truer, less sexist and more ecstatic ways of being sexual.” They found ways of being sexual that were risky, superficial, awkward and unsatisfying. The sexual double standard is as prominent as ever, being biologically determined and therefore immutable. If anything, men have become hypersensitive to female promiscuity, warily inquiring about a woman’s number before investing one ounce of emotional energy.
So why is Katie Roiphe suddenly writing in defense of sluts?
In fact the trope of “sluts” is perpetuated in liberal circles as well as conservative ones, and there is a much more widespread tendency to judge women for their sex lives than we like to admit. There is a great deal of unacknowledged, uninterrogated contempt for women who are perceived as promiscuous, floating around even in right-thinking, fashionable, urban, blue-state pockets of the world.
…The slut is not a mythical creature on college campuses, a unicorn or dodo bird, vanished from the vernacular, in other words. The girls talk about being sluts or feeling like sluts or other girls being sluts, and if this seems exotic or surprising to us, we can think back to our own college lives, or to yesterday, when we heard someone expressing something very much like that over coffee about someone else for a sexual encounter, or sexual style or sexual existence they don’t approve of for one reason or another.
I can’t explain Roiphe’s mysterious mid-life conversion to sympathy for sluthood at the age of 44, but I can note that female promiscuity is not a problem “for one reason or another.” It is directly responsible for the near disappearance of fulfilling and intimate cross-sex relationships among young people in college, the mistaken and tragic sense that most college students have of themselves as sexual “losers,” the rapid rise of sexually transmitted diseases in the U.S., and the creation of a “spinster class” of women now in their 30s and 40s.
If liberals are willing to shame promiscuity, that’s a good thing, a rare example of people working effectively across the aisle. Let’s not forget the manwhores while we’re at it, OK? The sooner the casual sex culture gasps its last breath, the sooner we can begin to repair the harm to our young women and men, as well as the most important societal institutions of marriage and family.
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Herb:
“It’s because the issue isn’t military service per se. It is understanding that while women loss sons, husbands, and brothers they are not the primary victim because those sons, husbands, and brothers are dead and the dead men are the primary victims of war. In fact, I believe a peacenik woman might get that quicker because she’s not seeing glory and men doing their final act of duty but death and destruction.”
——-
This IS sad if you have to actually explain this to anyone.
@Alias
Okay I’m not sure what is directed at me and what at MegaMan but I’ll take a shot.
1. I think media is part of our personal experiences. Story telling has long been a way to transmit culture and shape attitudes. When the stories quit being epic poems orally transmitted and become TV shows that effect doesn’t change. Media creates expectations and provides models. For men today, who often lack a consistent male figure in their life, this effect is probably greater than it was for my generation who still larger had fathers in their home.
2. Acting on the generalizations formed from experiences isn’t inherently demonizing or pestalizing. What it does do is affect how we read different things (I just had a huge weekend of this, btw, so it’s forefront in my mind) and how we react. My personal experiences with women have generally been that their attraction to me is either an act to get something or an acknowledgement of their low value. Thus, I suspect that a woman attracted to me will stop if she gets what she wants or sees her value increase.
Does that mean I think all women are mercenary bitches? No, it means I suspect all women who decide to show attraction to me are mercenary bitches and I should protect myself accordingly. Part of that is the things I ask and observe to determine how much to open myself to someone, which is where this all got started.
3. I think you need to give people more credit to view different spheres of life differently. This morning I put an add on Craigslist for people to form an ethereal band. Would I love for one of the people to respond to be a woman who signs along the lines of Sigrid Hausen, Kit Messick, or Summer Bowman? You can believe I would. Would I hold them in contempt? Hell no, I’d be honored to work with someone who captures the style of music I love and wanted to work with me. I would assume she wanted to make and perform beautiful music.
Yet, with that same woman if I instead met her as a potential romantic interest I would be on my guard about her agenda, her intentions, and how much to trust her.
Herb 747: great point.
I grew up in a very small town in the midwest. My entire frame of reference on girls and relationships was centered on a town of about 3,000 people in the middle of nowhere. Everything I knew was based on the attitudes and mores of people I’d known from my earliest consciousness.
Add to that a simpering beta father and a domineering shrew of a mother who clamped down hard on her only son, telling him he had to “be nice” or he would never ever amount to anything. She herself was the product of a mother who was widowed at an early age and from a family where all the men were either drunks, criminals or dead. So her mother made the rules in her family; and my mother decided she would make the rules in hers. Her children followed the rules or suffered her wrath.
That’s another reason why the “girls are self interested and want things out of their lives” message didn’t get through.
Actually, JM’s mom isn’t a feminist. JM’s mom is a alcoholic hairdresser who spends her free time reading romance novels. Easy to confuse the two, though.
@Herb
True, but most of those men have one bad experience to share, maybe two. How can they know whether their experience is indicative of the nature of that woman or the nature of all women? And what about the fact that men often select women of poor character?
Mike C,
I missed this until I saw Sue replying to it:
It’s not so much that I don’t think that alpha doesn’t really exist. It’s more that the terms alpha and beta have come to mean so many different–and conflicting–things to so many of the people here that they’ve become worse than meaningless, they’ve become a barrier to clear communication.
Sue gets flak for saying she loves her beta husband…. because guys hear “beta” and think “wimp.” Sue says every woman wants 5 minutes of alpha, but most don’t want it to extend to 10 minutes… and guys hear, “every woman wants a short fling with an asshole but a long term relationship with a decent man.”
If we could pin them down in terms of meaning, I’d be happy to use the words.
Susan – “I don’t see how this message could have been successfully delivered to boys, when as girls we were being told to stop acting feminine and subservient, and start growing a pair. How could boys not have noticed that girls were being raised to follow an entirely different script?”
As much as you can’t understand it, take my word for it that it happened. Why? I believed my mother, grandmother, and aunts more than I believed my own eyes as I was growing up. And, I met a few women along the way that weren’t raised “with a different script” to keep me believing it for years. My mother got pregnant by falling for a player, and I believe that she and the other women in my life decided when I was born that I would NEVER grow up to be like him, so instead they made me into a beta chump. I had no male role model to follow, as the only stable man in my life growing up felt it wasn’t his place to teach me to be a man.
I never understood why women loved to hang around me, talk to me, tell me their “guy troubles”, but if I even mentioned wanting to go out with them, they looked at me in horror and made some comment about dating their brother. I have never in my life had a shortage of female attention. The problem is, most of it was beta orbiter attention. And I was working under the assumption that I was on the right track the entire time. All I needed to do with any one of those young girls is pull back on the “be nice, be myself”, and just be a bit of an ass, and I could have been humping like a rabbit. I should have told them to suck it up or quit dating assholes when they came crying to me about getting dumped, and it probably would have gotten me laid. But, instead I was sympathetic, understanding, and angry at those guys for taking advantage of her.
And now I feel like a total fool for wasting years of my life following the direction given by misguided woman. And the worst part is they were/are all women I love and respect, which makes it a very bitter pill to swallow.
@Herb
Yes, please! I’m all for a person who applies a healthy dose of skepticism to life and the questions surrounding it, especially for what may seem trivial matters. I try to do this all the time, it was what brought me to HUS (just follow the track).
I’m even thinking of incorporating HUS as a crude heuristic to assess the compatibility of a future relationship. It would make me optimistic knowing a potential partner has been digging through the archives to seek answers.
Elaborating on that, one of the things that really ticks me off, and is likely to be one of the factors underlying contempt of men for women, is when this skeptical attitude is not present. Whenever I see someone asking themselves a question (e.g. “Why are men opting out of marriage these days”), I think “Good question”. Most of the times it is followed by “Cause they’re all little babies” or the likes, after which I think “Screw you guys, I’m going to play video games now”. Filling in the blanks by resorting to what mainstream ideologies have to offer (e.g. modern feminism) is a real downer.
And now you’re wasting more years feeling like a fool and steeping yourself in resentment. You have to move on at some point.
@Susan
Just one or two? Hmmm, how are you defining bad experience? For example, is being shot down by a girl who then puts out for the asshole bass player a bad experience? How about women you’d like to date using the “you’re a great guy and any woman would be lucky to have you” to brush you off (if that’s true, why do you want to be unlucky instead)? Because most nice guys have a ton of those.
If we’re only talking about ELP divorces or being “treed” (as a friend of mine dubbed it after a gf did it to me then her gf did it her here and named it after one of the gfs in question) I’ve got two. Most guys probably lack both but watched it happen.
But they all add up. I think you only get the kind of bitterness I had (no, I’m not as bitter or angry as I was) and the huge distrust I doubt I’ll ever lose if you pick up two. But all those girls who did the little stuff are great twigs to get the fire started when I start distrusting. They are enough to drive many men to Game.
Some guys just dealing with the little stuff I mentioned first will accidentally hit Dark Game or truly bitter MRAs and that’s where MegaMan’s echo chamber point does ring true. If a guy who is only trying to figure out the asshole/nice guy issue and runs into deti, he’ll probably just Game up a little and not think badly of women but just figure “that’s the way the world is”.
If that same guy runs into me circa 2003-4 then he’ll come out claiming diamond ring ads prove all women are for sale and prostitutes are the most honest women in the world.
That’s why I was trying to get across to MegaMan that you need to attack this at the experience level instead of the studies level because attacking at the studies level actually gives Dark Game and true misogyny types even a bigger lever of “see, they’re just lying to you”.
@ Cheerful
I confirm all inferences re flirting. I have never know a secure married man who did it, and outside of certain allowances in the business context, allowed it. A man, repeat a man, couldn’t care less about his sexual attractiveness on the superficial level. He knows who he is, concentrates on what he does, and does it so goddamned well he knows he’ll get all the approbation due him including that cheap kind. Of course, I am speaking as a man of no particular attractiveness, has never been flirted with, and gives off intense vibes which are interpreted by women and most guys as hostile.
Joe:
“That’s an easy one. All you have to do is make sure the boy gets the message that his [mother's/sister's/female cousin's/female neighbor's] feelings and perceptions are the only one’s to be considered. Make sure he knows that they are acting right and he is acting wrong when he’s outside getting dirty and playing rough. He’s he “man”, so he has to be tolerant and non-physical with girls, and above all, he has to sit still in school even when every bone in his body wants to be outside running and jumping.
Oh, and when his sister comes home with better grades, make sure his grades are compared to hers! That’ll help.
Then you will have successfully created a young man who knows his place and who can be counted on to consider himself inferior.”
————-
Well this put it simply, thanks for the explanation.
I grew up in a culture where when/if boys misbehaved it was acceptable but girls weren’t afforded any slack for misbehaving.
@Susan…
Opps. hit reply too soon because I really did want to hit the poor character part.
Guilty, as charged, especially with the ex-wife (well, maybe not character so much as not mentally stable but same idea).
People hate admitting they were wrong. Nice guys who find Game probably get some sense that they weren’t wrong per se, but lied to so “it’s not my fault” even if a big part of the problem was chasing mercenary women. I know owning not looking at warning signs in my marriage and prior took years even though it’s vital to my making better choices.
Susan – “True, but most of those men have one bad experience to share, maybe two. How can they know whether their experience is indicative of the nature of that woman or the nature of all women? And what about the fact that men often select women of poor character?”
Well, we talk to each other about this stuff a lot. I avoided “locker room” talk my entire life, but as I got older I certainly got involved in my share of guy talk about relationships. In fact, as a married guy, I was privy to some deep conversations we kept the single younger guys out of. I realize now, we should have drug those single guys to us and forced them to listen, because what us married men were all complaining about was exactly the types of things we discuss here. Bored wives, frivolous divorces, frustrated men that had no idea how to fix the mess they were in. I know many, many divorced couples. No more than 2 can be traced to real abuse of any kind. the rest? Well, cheating and boredom of the most common. My divorce basically falls into the boredom category. My ex-wife decided she missed her change to “live her life” and wanted a second shot. She has now hitched her wagon up to a guy that seems only slightly more liberally minded as Archie Bunker, so I guess I just wasn’t enough of an asshole for her. She’s still complaining, but now it isn’t my problem.
@Deti
Do you think your wife’s attraction to you has increased? Is she more compliant about sex, or has she started initiating it more herself? I would think your approach would make you sexier to her, but something about what you just said made me wonder.
susan 741
I’ve been reading the exchanges between you and Mike C. Watching the two of you plead your cases makes for a fascinating read. That having been said, I sense you have quite a desire to prove that you’re right and Mike C is wrong. Seems to be unnecessary, because my read of Mike C’s position is that this is his interpretation of what he sees, and it’s colored by his experiences as a man. My read of your position is that this is your interpretation of your experiences and what scientific data says or doesn’t say, filtered through your experiences as a woman.
For example, you have a view of hypergamy that’s been studied and defined scientifically. It’s more limited than what men see and experience. Can I point to a study that backs up my experience that hypergamy is background noise, a subroutine always running with every woman? I cannot. But I can tell you that as a man, I always — always — felt that on a date, or in a relationship, I was constantly being evaluted, assessed and reassessed according to her internal (and always unknown to me) requirements so she could make sure she knew whether I measured up. (Most of the time, of course, I didn’t.) I felt I always had to be on my tip-top-toes and best behavior, lest I be replaced by a better man. I have always had a sense that women were always on the lookout for something better — or at least making sure their current man meets her (internal and ever-shifting) requirements. I know with my own wife if I falter, she might very well look around.
That’s my experience. It’s an experience many men have said they also share. It can’t be scientifically backed up with studies, but it’s there, and while it might not be universal, it seems to be common enough that it can’t be easily discounted simply because it hasn’t been studied.
I don’t think I’ll convince you of the correctness of what I see, other than to tell you it’s my experience.
“If you can’t get a girl, it is because you are not being nice enough.”
deti, if you’re saying this is what you were taught, I won’t dispute you. But I would ask, didn’t you notice that it was contrary to the evidence before your eyes?
I noticed probably around 7th grade–long before I had even heard of “game”–that girls were not attracted to “nice” per se; that in fact the guys whom the girls found the most attractive tended not to be nice at all. Some were, some weren’t. Probably the ones who were not outnumbered the ones who were. However, the attractive ones all shared other traits that made them attractive. In my town, it was the surfers who were at the top of the SMP. The very top surfers were, almost to a man, a-holes. But they got girls.
I mean, I recall it being a trope of pop culture since I became aware that nice geeks don’t get girls but jerky athletes and deliquents do. Then my own observation confirmed that.
JM – “And now you’re wasting more years feeling like a fool and steeping yourself in resentment. You have to move on at some point.”
Oh I’m moving on man. I’ve been moving on for some time now. But, I’ll always feel cheated. Nothing will change that, and nothing can get me back the years I wasted. But, without those years I also wouldn’t have my children, so I view it now as the cost for my family. I’ll never allow myself to totally lose that feeling though, because it will remind me to always stay vigilant.
My pessimistic view of humanity has nothing to do with the red pill. I decided that people in general sucked in my late teens. After spending early childhood and adolescence being taken advantage of and picked on by people for simply being honest, open, and showing a desire to make them happy. People don’t deserve that level of respect until they’ve earned it. And to me, there are very few that do these days.
This is my major problem with the generalizations made about marriage, and especially about who women marry. I read this stuff about women hunting for alphas during ovulation and settling for beta providers when they’re expiration date arrives. That we’re hypergamous creatures with unquenchable lust for dominant males. Honestly, we sound like vampires or zombies half the time.
Then I go out for a walk in my urban neighborhood, and the park is chock full of beta dads and beta moms with their little kids in the playground. I see people in their 20s walking around and holding hands – just normal people. Not particularly good looking, or charismatic. Yes, the marriage rate is declining, but it’s the betas who are getting married. And a small percentage of them are getting divorced. It’s important to hold one’s assumptions up to the light of day from time to time. It doesn’t mean the horror stories aren’t real – but perhaps they’re not typical. They’re certainly not in my world.
Escoffier – “deti, if you’re saying this is what you were taught, I won’t dispute you. But I would ask, didn’t you notice that it was contrary to the evidence before your eyes?”
I distinctly remember asking my mother why women seemed to go after the “bad boys”. Her answer went something like this:
1. they are bad girls
2. they haven’t grown up enough to realize what they are missing.
So, sure I saw asshats getting laid. But, I was told that it was a temporary thing that women would outgrow. So, even way back then, my mother was trying to tell me someday I should just accept a carousel rider as my wife.
nice huh? And I think she fully believed every word. She never did marry or even get into and stay in any kind of LTR my entire life. I think the longest relationship she ever had was a handful of years (4-5) But, she was my mother, and my grandmother and aunts seemed to agree. The only voice of dissent was my grandfather, who they all painted out to be a woman-bashing male chauvinist. Turns out he was probably just a man…
Susan 765:
I’m not sure which of my many comments this morning made you write this, but: At the risk of TMI, and for the common good I’ll see if I can answer.
I feel better about myself. Mrs. d initiates sex probably half the time. If it’s all an act, it’s Oscar-worthy. It’s a definite change from the first 15 years.
@Ted D
OK, I have some questions for you:
What does femcentric mean?
Do you believe that it’s either-or? One sex grabs from the other? Are you suggesting that I am encouraging women to take something from men?
Do you expect me to give advice here that prioritizes the male experience over the female experience?
What advice have I given to a male that you disagree with?
Have I limited access to any male regulars?
Do I limit the expression of opposing views?
In other words, please state very specifically what you would like to see changed here.
Esco: I really am not the same man as Ted. But his experience was exactly the same as mine.
I did notice that assholes, douchebags and jocks got the girls. When I pointed this out, the response from my mom, grandmoms, sisters and aunts was :
1. Assholes, douchebags and jocks can only get bad girls and sluts.
2. Girls who like assholes, douchebags and jocks are bad girls, party girls, stupid girls, whores, and sluts.
3. Only stupid girls and sluts fall for Game from assholes, douchebags and jocks.
4. Well, if she’s sleeping with him, she’s a slut.
5. Don’t worry, deti. You’ll get your chance. Nice guys get nice girls, and they get married and have babies like they are supposed to.
Herb:
“My personal experiences with women have generally been that their attraction to me is either an act to get something or an acknowledgement of their low value. Thus, I suspect that a woman attracted to me will stop if she gets what she wants or sees her value increase.
Does that mean I think all women are mercenary bitches? No, it means I suspect all women who decide to show attraction to me are mercenary bitches and I should protect myself accordingly. Part of that is the things I ask and observe to determine how much to open myself to someone, which is where this all got started.”
—–
> I’m so sorry that’s been your experience.
Then your reaction to be suspect of women is justifiable.
===========================
“Yet, with that same woman if I instead met her as a potential romantic interest I would be on my guard about her agenda, her intentions, and how much to trust her.”
—————
Everyone should employ this tactic.
@Joe
Thanks for clarifying that. Family pressure and the schools – that’s huge.
@Jesus
Well someone in the gene pool was smart and gifted. I’ll assume it’s on the Irish side.
deti,
I’d say that if you remove “jock” from this advice (since I think we can all agree that there must be at least *some* athletes who are decent human beings), this is pretty sound stuff.
The exception would be #5. You needed a man to give you the tools to go out and find those good girls.
This is one of the nicest things ever said about HUS! Thank you.
@Susan
I have never really got that and I don’t think ELP is driven by hypergamy per se. I think it’s a cultural artifact of our desire to free women from historic oppression (quotes around free and historic oppression if you want…reality of that is irrelevant to the fact our culture is acting on that belief).
I think American women do have a choice addiction and princess attitude, though, which is a big problem at the front end.
I’ll also admit the kinds of issues I’m seeing are not the focus of HUS because of age. If you’re single over 40 unless it’s due being widowed I’d put good odds you’re broken somehow. You are too picky or are bitter over your divorce or whatever. People who want to be married and aren’t in their 40s are broken unless they’ve been widowed.
I firmly put myself in the broken camp, btw, so don’t think I’m putting this on women.
I’m more concerned about the trend line showing more and more single moms (it’s now the majority of births under 30). I suspect, can’t prove, but suspect they are much more likely to be the children of cads than married women’s children are. I also suspect social pressure to man up and marry single moms to provide dads will increase.
When I hear the Game types talk about the women are always cheating and looking for alpha and trade ups I hear something I fear more for people who are 20 now than the reality of 40 year olds today. Even you have admitted that enough alpha can create bonding problems with betas. I’m worried the trend is pushing us towards the horrible world the manosphere paints more than we are there now.
I also think for a variety of reasons a lot of the manosphere wants to get there: mostly the ability to grudge fuck women through life and the revenge of seeing women alone and poor.
JM 777:
Huh??
Looking back, I knew plenty of nice girls who would ditch me to sleep with the hardcore asshole or douchebag or frat boy or jock, let him pump and dump her, and then use me as her emotional tampon.
My point was that so-called “nice girls”, smart girls, respectable girls, love these guys too, Game works on them, and they love having sex with these guys too.
Guess I didn’t explain it very well.
Ted:
“Archie Bunker, so I guess I just wasn’t enough of an asshole for her. ”
Perhaps I’m a weirdo but I didn’t think AB was an asshole.
To me, he was a family centered, faithful, hard-working. Yeah, he yelled at that Edith to stifle herself or called her a dingbat, certainly uncalled for because she was so sweet, but he wasn’t cruel to her.
If you watch episodes where they divulged Archie’s upbringing you start to understand why he was the way he was.
I actually liked Archie much more than I did Mike, I don’t know, perhaps that says something about me… lol.
““I don’t see how this message could have been successfully delivered to boys, when as girls we were being told to stop acting feminine and subservient, and start growing a pair. How could boys not have noticed that girls were being raised to follow an entirely different script?”
We beleived in it, because there is often a void between the way we’re supposed to act, and the way other sometimes act. So we assumed we were being told the ‘right’ way.
We could only presume that the evidence to the contrary, (people acting the opposite as told – mean) were the ones doing it the ‘wrong’ way.
-Escoffier #767
“But I would ask, didn’t you notice that it was contrary to the evidence before your eyes?
I noticed probably around 7th grade–long before I had even heard of “game”–that girls were not attracted to “nice” per se; that in fact the guys whom the girls found the most attractive tended not to be nice at all.”
“I became aware that nice geeks don’t get girls but jerky athletes and deliquents do. Then my own observation confirmed that.”#767
It’s not that we didn’t notice how it was before our eyes, (I did as early as you – around 7th grade) it’s just we still thought we’re were the ones doing the ‘right way.’
@deti
I’ll admit I got Friends Laddered to the emotional tampon level once. It’s the one woman who I honestly am enjoying seeing the manosphere be right about. I know it’s wrong to enjoy that pain on her but there it is.
She was in my social circle and claiming she was ready to get married and start a family. Yet she was more interested in fucking a couple of bad boys who were using her for sex and expecting me and another guy interested in her to be the emotional support. While her cited reason for lack of interest in men was “valid” (age difference) most of our social circle thought we were dating or should be.
I’ll be seeing her at a wedding next month of the other man she couldn’t be bothered with (where age difference didn’t apply) and I’ll enjoy seeing her 32 year old single, no man in her life, children starting to become improbable ass.
So I get where a lot of manosphere guys are coming from, I just don’t like that sometimes I have the same thoughts.
I wonder if the generation of women prior to me – the women who were burning their bras and embracing the Women’s Movement – made a conscious decision to raise their son’s with an emphasis on respecting and treasuring women. IOW, a general philosophy of female superiority – not to mention the fish/bicycle meme. This wouldn’t have been the same everywhere, but a lot of that seeped into the culture via TV, movies, even music.
I know that I’m guilty of having taught my son to respect women, without qualifying it to suggest they should be worthy of respect. I think we all suffer from feminist-think, even if we don’t subscribe to the philosophy. YMMV.
Sue,
Actually, my mom is extremely bright. Unhealthy, but intelligent. The Irish side has some gifted ones too. Same sort of deal though. It’s not something I like to think about–being a guy who wants his own children one day–but I suspect that there’s a history of mental illness on both sides of my family.
After I read your comment about “Stage 3″ I started digging up writings of mine from the early days to prove my perspective hasn’t changed. Then I realized there is nothing whatsoever I can say to convince you of that, so I won’t try. I will address the specific things you mentioned.
Susan,
I very much appreciate your thoughtful and detailed response. At this point, I’ll simply agree to disagree and leave it that. The carcass of the horse has been beaten beyond recognition. There is no point in any further back and forth on this particular point of contention of whether your views, perspective, and delivery have changed. As I’ve always said, I believe you are a positive force with this blog and I STILL BELIEVE THIS TODAY although I believe you are wrong on some things, and misinterpet and misconstrue some of what you call “Dark Game”. That’s OK. People in life disagree. Even good people with good motives. Not everyone is a demon if they disagree. On some level, both men and women are trying to make sure they don’t get fucked over in relationships/interactions with the opposite sex. We could argue until the cows come home who has more to worry about, and what tactics/strategy is within acceptable self-interest and what is OK within the framework of trying not to get fucked over out there in either dating or marriage.
From my vantage point, I’d just like to articulate my views when I feel necessary knowing we may have opposite views from time to time. I definitely want to get out from the middle position I’ve been in as trust me I’ve been an ear for the other side, and frankly I respect some of those guys immensely who are hostile to you elsewhere. I’ve told them they should just forget about what you say and write and do their own thing. Its been tricky for me for several months to navigate very tiicky terrain of liking you and respecting you, yet believing you were wrong and made some mistakes. For my part, I’m going to try and tell guys where I have some influence to just leave it alone and focus on their personal betterment instead of you. I have no input into Rollo whatsoever. To the extent you choose to engage him, you’ll be on the receiving end of his mockery I’m sure. I’ll comment on substantive issues where I think interesting and try to avoid engaging the personal confrontation. I really want no part of it. I have no children….I never will….I ask myself why do I do this. My father gave me no good guidance. In some sense, I view myself in a father role able to give the advice and perspective I never got as a young man. I think many of the men who blog, do so for a similar motivation…to pass along some aspect of learned male wisdom they did not receive.
Since you replied on the blog, I wanted to reply on the blog instead of e-mailing this. As always, I wish you the best of luck on your mission. I plan to comment where I feel necessary within the boundaries you’ve set for discussion here.
Final thought….;always keep in mind male communication is blunt and direct…we don’t beat around the bush with each other…friends call it straight with each other so if someone says “you don’t know shit about Game” somewhere else don’t take it personally and realize that is just male communication taking place on male terms. Generally speaking, men don’t give a fuck about diplomacy, and we don’t worry about how someone is going to feel about something said, because we don’t tend to hold onto stuff and just let it go. If you are going to read male blogs like Rational Male or Vox Day or wherever, it would be worth just keeping that in mind..
deti,
Yea, I don’t buy that. If a girl likes to have sex with an “asshole” or a “douchebag” then she’s not a “good” girl.
@Munson
No way, you’re extremely handsome in your wedding photo. My guess is that you come across as quite dominant IRL.
But my experience matches what you say. The married men who have sought to flirt with me have been creepy and slimy and prone to excess self-indulgence in general. They’re the cheaters and in one case, an abuser (his wife often had a black eye at Little League games).
FTR, I am not talking about lively conversation here. I’ve had experiences where I knew that married friends were crushing on me a little bit – a woman can read the signs – but they tried hard to hide it and after a little while it dissipated. Had they handled it differently, we would no longer be friends.
JM
“Yea, I don’t buy that. If a girl likes to have sex with an “asshole” or a “douchebag” then she’s not a “good” girl.”
Why not? Oh, I know, because she likes to have sex with an asshole or douchebag (more accurately, she falls for them – she might actually like the sex).
We call that a circular argument. But, even assuming it’s true, let’s reframe Deti’s comment to mean “Even the majority of girls who OTHERWISE seem nice and good seem to end up being more attracted to . . .”
@Deti, Herb, JMahoney
#773->#777->#780->#783
+1
“So I get where a lot of manosphere guys are coming from, I just don’t like that sometimes I have the same thoughts.”
I distinctly remember asking my mother why women seemed to go after the “bad boys”. Her answer went something like this:
1. they are bad girls
2. they haven’t grown up enough to realize what they are missing.
I heard the most:
3. Those are bad boys who are abusing the trust of those poor girls.
Ah okay. I don’t know how big of a majority it actually is. But even assuming it’s true, I’d say to avoid having relationships with these OTHERWISE nice and good seeming girls. I mean unless you just want to get laid…. But why would any non-douche bag want a relationship with a girl who’s more attracted to douche bags?
Susan – “OK, I have some questions for you:
“What does femcentric mean?” it means that all of your advice, even when you are talking to men, has a female “slant” to it. There is nothing wrong with it, unless some young men are listening to your advice without knowing about your bias.
“Do you believe that it’s either-or? One sex grabs from the other? Are you suggesting that I am encouraging women to take something from men?” No. But the approach to fixing this mess is different between men and woman. And, even though you acknowledge that fact, you are pretty much against many of the concepts that would be helpful to these beta guys. You don’t like flirting from a married man, because you believe that women can ‘see’ the interest of other women for their husband. But, what if there really isn’t any? What if women really just don’t appear too interested in him? Some real hardcore game flirting will get that female attention to keep his wife interested, even if you don’t like that it works.
“Do you expect me to give advice here that prioritizes the male experience over the female experience?” Not at all. But, if/when you are talking to men about how THEY can improve, make sure they know you aren’t really talking from their side of the fence. Because you aren’t. It may very well be that the young man you are emailing NEEDS to run some mild dark game to get his stuff in balance again. I don’t believe you would suggest such a thing, even if it was necessary because you are against it as a concept. In short, you are good for helping guys until they have to possibly do something that isn’t so good for women, and then you switch sides.
“What advice have I given to a male that you disagree with?” For starters, fully decrying the use of “dread” in relationships. I’m sorry, but there are some relationships out there that may need that much of a kick. There are some men out there that are SO bad at interacting with females, that they may need to go out and fully flirt to fix it, whether they are married or not. And, there are indeed some women out there that need that much “social proof” or perhaps they simply need to be a little fearful to reach full appreciation for what they have. Taking that tool out of a man’s toolbox across the board is simply not good advice.
“Have I limited access to any male regulars?” Not sure what you are getting at here, but I’ve never accused you of banning anyone without good reason.
“Do I limit the expression of opposing views?” Not at all, but you come down really hard on guys here on occasion when we are simply trying to balance out some of your views. I totally get where you are coming from, but understand that I come from elsewhere, and I know damn well there are other men coming from where I started. What you say is great, but it isn’t everything they need to hear.
“In other words, please state very specifically what you would like to see changed here.”
This is a tough one. I would say, if all your readers were female and you didn’t have both young men and women coming to you for advice, nothing. Your advice to women is mostly sound, although perhaps a bit too sugar coated. (I’ll leave that to you as I often feel like women are way too thin skinned). But, as I see more men posting here, and see that young men are turning to you for advice as well, I’d say your ideals are sound, but your view of the situation is simply not general enough. I’m not volunteering because I know my own view is jaded, and I’m not sure I would be able to impart knowledge without at least a little bitterness seeping in. I’m not looking to change young men into haters. But I’d really like them to have a fair shot at getting everything they want from life. It seems that in many ways that goes against what women want out of life.
I’ll think on this a bit and see if I can come up with more specifics. What I can say now is, I “feel” like lately things have been getting more polarized both here at HUS and across the ‘sphere in general. I am finding that many things you or other female posters here are saying just rubs me the wrong way, for lack of a better term. It isn’t that the message is wrong, but that the deliver seems very one-sided. To be honest, it may be that HUS is growing past simply trying to get college girls to think more and sex less. If young men are finding their way here that is certainly true. Reading some of the stuff here without knowing about the red pill might send these guys running for the hills, and straight to the angry part of the ‘sphere. You, Athol, and a few others are the only places a young guy can go to learn about the red pill without the anger and bitterness. I fear you don’t realize that missing the opportunity to snag them now may mean more cads in the future.
“If a girl likes to have sex with an “asshole” or a “douchebag” then she’s not a “good” girl.”
Nah, I’m with deti, and Passer_by.
“Even the majority of girls who OTHERWISE seem nice and good seem to end up being more attracted to . . .”
@deti
I have a desire to prove that Mike C is wrong about me having changed my views. My comment to him illustrates that my views have been consistent on this blog over time.
As for debating who’s right and wrong – I realize we cannot really know that. But I do have standards for debate – and personal anecdote alone cannot really serve as a viable rebuttal to data, IMO.
I certainly don’t mean to suggest that your experience is invalid or wrong. We really don’t know how common it is – and if it seems common on some blogs, that says a lot about men who write and read blogs about these issues, but not necessarily anything about the much wider population.
It’s also tricky because in every interaction we have with another human being we represent half the energy. We all have our backstories. You’re describing how you were raised – and I can only imagine that must have been very disorienting and puzzling as you began to date. Growing up believing that women had no internal requirements for selecting men, it must have been a powerful feeling to be learning otherwise as you were coming of age as a sexually active male. If you remove deti from the picture, and slip in some other male, with some other backstory, you may get a similar result or the opposite one.
While the social sciences tend to be soft, CDC sexual health statistics are a literal treasure trove about the sexual habits of American adults. We have studies that examine sexual behavior on college campuses – at least two I consider solid and comprehensive. Yet when I post that data – which matches the CDC data, by the way – there are guys who flat out reject it because they just don’t believe it’s only 3% of college girls who have 10+ partners. Or whatever. Even though, as in Mike C’s case – he is 38, and was a STEM major. Surely pluralistic ignorance is a factor for him, as it is for virtually all young people today.
@JM
“But why would any non-douche bag want a relationship with a girl who’s more attracted to douche bags?”
I suppose if they all wore some sort of mark of the beat on their foreheads, non-douche bag guys could know to avoid them. However, I think his point (implicitly) is also that that would leave very few women for a large number of men. Probably easier to just become an asshole douche bag than to compete for genuinely nice girls with AMOGs like you.
Good luck with that. I can’t for the life of me understand why any man in his right mind would want a relationship with a woman who’s attracted to douche bags.
James Dean, Marlon Brando and all the other bad boys. Joe Namath. Even OJ Simpson. There’s nothing new about this.
lol.
I’m all for branding the supposed nice girls who are attracted to douche bags.
Not really, but that would make it convenient.
@deti
Thanks for answering. I have been wondering for a while, but it was your comment where you laid out the six guiding principles. I’m really pleased to hear Mrs. d has gotten with the program. And there is no way it could be an act. She wouldn’t initiate if she wasn’t feeling it, she would just comply to save the marriage. Congrats, that’s great news.
I just think that this is a very odd conception of a “nice” girl.
“I suppose if they all wore some sort of mark of the beast on their foreheads, non-douche bag guys could know to avoid them.”
Some women are very good at faking “nice girl” too. Lying about partner counts, feigning interest in obscure subjects, eager to point out her family background, dropping the name of her church into conversation, etc., as they age and shift from carousel riding to seeking husbands.
JM – my friend. According to some PUA types, all woman want to sex up douchebags.
If the only woman to choose from are all the same in that respect, what choice does a guy have? Yes, I know NAWALT. But trying to find the one or two that arent can be a life long quest that ends in loneliness.
That is my biggest concern for my boys. That if things keep going at this pace there may be precious few “decent” woman left when they want to marry. Or trying to find her may take monumental time and effort.
SW 803:
Yeah, I definitely get that vibe from a few manosphere outposts.
@Jesus
I’m sure it doesn’t top mine, but my kids turned out OK. And medicine has come a long way. Even my bipolar mother would be a thousand times better in this era. Basically, I think there’s some mental illness, including depression, in most families.
@JM #797
I think that if I followed your ideal rule, that I’d be greatly reducing the amount of women I’d consider good.
I think that women, usually young and not good or bad, have a tendency to be attracted to the wrong men.
Trust me, I don’t like the idea, but it’s one I figure I have to accept.
Do you really think a guy has a good chance of find a girls who hasn’t slept with a douche at least once? Nevermind the amount that may lie about ever have done so.
I have a tendency to think not. See #802
deti:
“But I can tell you that as a man, I always — always — felt that on a date, or in a relationship, I was constantly being evaluted, assessed and reassessed according to her internal (and always unknown to me) requirements so she could make sure she knew whether I measured up. (Most of the time, of course, I didn’t.) I felt I always had to be on my tip-top-toes and best behavior, lest I be replaced by a better man. I have always had a sense that women were always on the lookout for something better”
—–
I can see this to be especially true if a person lacks commitment skills, views relationships (marriage) as conditional/temporary and with a “what’s in it for me?” attitude.
Yeah, it’s true that a lot of people think this way and for them it’s probably no big deal, but those who view marriage as permanent need to learn to filter this out early on before getting in too deep with someone who thinks this way.
@Mike C
Sounds good, I think we’re cool. I’m hoping that over time I can get out from under some of these debates anyway. A lot of it isn’t necessarily central to my mission, and I wind up spending 80% of my time dealing with pushback from 5% of my readers. Then that spills over into posts, and I don’t want that toxicity to seep in.
I fully appreciate that men gotta do what’s right for them, and I leave it to individuals to select what approach suits them, and where they come down on the ethical questions. I’ll continue to address women directly and advise them to filter men according to their actions.
Cooper,
Hm. Idk. All I can say is that I wouldn’t want to be with a woman who was attracted to “douche bags.” If I found out my gf had ever knowingly slept with a douche bag, I’d be surprised and disappointed. If it were a long time ago and I was comfortable with who she turned out to be, I would overlook it. But I doubt she has.
If I thought she found that type attractive now, I’d be concerned… and turned off.
Could be that most women are more attracted to the douche bag types. But you don’t need most women. You just need one.
Cooper 807:
I think that women, usually young and not good or bad, have a tendency to be attracted to the wrong men.
All I can tell you is this:
1. Lots of girls have talked to me about their sexual histories. Just about every one of them tells a story about giving it up to an alpha. She knew she would probably get pumped & dumped but she went ahead and did it anyway. She’s usually not proud of it and is usually completely unable to articulate why she did it other than something like “He was just so beautiful I couldn’t help myself!”
2. Maybe she doesn’t sleep with the douchebag. But she sure tingles at his presence. And she’s comparing you to him, and like it or not, you have the bigger chance of coming up short in her eyes. If she has the choice between going home alone or sleeping with a beta, she’ll go home alone. By contrast, if a man has a choice between going home alone or sleeping with a 5, he’ll sleep with the 5.
Sue,
True. Thanks for putting it in perspective.
Alias – my reference to Archie Bunker wasn’t just based on how he treated women. He was also a racist. And if memory serves me well (and these days it doesn’t always) also thought that women mostly “belonged in the kitchen”. Or at least figured they should know their place.
But anyway, my point was that this particular man seems to be stuck in the 1960′s in terms of social norms, roles, constraints, and stereotypes. I’m sorry, but the “jews” are not out to get us, and women shouldn’t always be barefoot in the kitchen.
NOTE: I am not saying anything derogatory about Jewish people. I am replying to a comment from Alias that Archie Bunker (not even sure how many people here know who that is) was an OK guy. I disagree wholeheartedly, mostly because of his racist/misogynist views.
@TedD
“If young men are finding their way here that is certainly true. Reading some of the stuff here without knowing about the red pill might send these guys running for the hills, and straight to the angry part of the ‘sphere.”
I came here without much prior knowledge on practically everything ‘sphere related.
I’m still working on decifering what’s ‘good’ and ‘bad’ advice, and what is simply jaded.
A young guy does have to wary of who he listens to and agrees with here.
So have we really come all the way back to the whole “all women are hot for jerks” meme?
SayWhaat and purplesneakers, I can identify with a lot of what you were saying. I think the only major difference is that East Asians don’t do arranged marriages much if at all anymore. But the rest, including denigrating darker skin (and I’m not even that dark), definitely ring true.
And yeah, there are Asian men who are resentful that Asian women often date white men. I’m personally fine with it when I see Asian men dating white women. Maybe men are more likely to feel “racial possessiveness” somehow? My husband has even said he was a little resentful seeing white girls dating black guys.
I think every white guy who feels like he’s “unattractive” and will never find a girl to appreciate him should take a visit to a non-Western country. He will be fighting girls off with a stick. I think spending time in Africa helped my husband’s self-esteem in that regard.
@Ted D
Thanks for the feedback, it helps me to understand where you’re coming from. I’ll keep it in mind as I go forward. I will say, and this is part of Mike C’s disagreement with me – I will never endorse any tactics that I consider “dark Game.” It’s just not in me to do it, and here’s why: I believe that it is actually against men’s best interest to use these tactics. They’re dehumanizing for both parties. They erode trust and intimacy, increase suspicion and jealousy, and destroy the foundation of relationships.
They may be effective for short-term mating purposes, but I don’t write about how to go about getting ONSs or casual sex, so they have no place here and only detract from my mission.
@deti
Were you agreeing? I understand what you were saying, but what am I to do?
Exclude every woman with a story like you mentioned on #811 1&2; like JMahoney would perhaps suggest?
Cooper – It isn’t that there is much bad advice here, there really isn’t. But the truth is, the bias here is still in women’s favor, despite the fact that it IS a blog to teach women how to stop being used by asshats.
The problem to me is: they may learn what to watch out for here, but are they really learning that the core issue is their desire for what they can’t have?
JM – “So have we really come all the way back to the whole “all women are hot for jerks” meme?”
It’s my story and I’m sticking to it!
But seriously, yeah we kinda are. How about this. At some point in their lives, all women will be hot for jerks/asshats/douchebags. Is that fair? Because I certainly know some older women that are NO LONGER attracted to jerks, but most of them had at least a few go-arounds with one in her life.
Idk. I’m not a woman. I hope it’s not true. But like I said, Idk.
Ted D, how do you define jerk? I mean, no offense, but one could easily say *you* are a jerk by the way you describe yourself acting. This whole definition thing could slide down a really deep hill to include all homo sapiens with a Y chromosome as “jerks.”
deti,
Honestly, I’d like to know where you’ve gotten all these confessions from women. Doesn’t seem to me like a guy is likely to get many women to open up to him like that.
It’s not true in my experience. I do think many young women today get burned by a cad or two. Most don’t continue seeking the same disappointing experience, though some do, e.g. Emileigh. College is a real wakeup call for girls – and they separate pretty quickly into sluts and non-sluts. Not a lot of middle ground there. (Obvs depends on your meaning of the word slut.)
JM,
Thing is, if there was a player or douche in her past life that she was attracted to and slept with, there is a good chance that she would never actually consider this guy a ‘douche bag’. I’ve seen this hamster mechanism happen way too many times. A girl will rationalize that the he was actually a ‘nice guy’ or ‘really sweet’ and blah blah blah (and truly believe it), whereas to everyone in view the guy was an ass. Thus, you would never really know.
Susan – ” I believe that it is actually against men’s best interest to use these tactics. They’re dehumanizing for both parties. They erode trust and intimacy, increase suspicion and jealousy, and destroy the foundation of relationships.”
OK wait a minute. I’m not disagreeing with you here. But, for some guys so totally down the beta path, a little dehumanizing might be in order. Here is the thing though: I’m not suggested men should use “dark game” long term in their relationships. But, a little of it may be necessary in some cases, and it should be discounted across the board. Hell, a gun can be used to kill people, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a useful tool.
As far as dehumanizing goes, keep in mind that people coming from the pro-casual-sex-carousel are MASTERS at dehumanizing people. How else can you jump from bed to bed without a concern in the world for the people you are screwing? (literally and figuratively). I can say in my former beta life, I think I was a bit too humanizing, which prevented me from even being able to see my ex-wife as a sexual object. I found it mentally disturbing to think of her in terms of a sexual object. I had to learn how to “dehumanize” my current SO a bit in order to let go of those feelings and get past it. I still have trouble with this. For a long while, every time I had a sexual thought about my SO, I had to remind myself that not only is it OK, but she wants me to have those thoughts. I’ve actually had discussions with her about sexual objectification and how hard it is for me, but that I wanted to work on it.
The truth is, if I wasn’t in a relationship when I found the red pill, the easiest way for me to accomplish this task would have been to pull a Jesus M and go nuts for a summer. All that “dehumanization” would have cured me quickly of my issue of objectification. Sometimes you have to cause more pain to get the cure…
@Susan
Please don’t think because I can describe it I want to get there. For a lot of reasons, most having nothing to do with the SMP but plenty having to do with it that is not a world I want to live in.
But given there are feminist looking for just as bleak a world with a different shape don’t expect those manosphere types to change. You’re in a two front war where you only advantage is the other two sides want to kill each other more.
If there was just a way for you to play “let’s you and them fight” and watch them destroy each other.
JM:
If I told you, you’d never believe me.
True. Most women aren’t going to cop to knowing a guy was a douche bag. I’m pretty sure my gf’s never had casual sex of any kind. If she dated a douche bag at 17, then… oh well. It doesn’t matter enough to me to even ask.
deti,
I know you said your sister told you a story like that. But surely she’s not representative of the entire culture.
Ted D:
For me: I had to learn to stand up for myself. I had to learn to get a little “ruthless, cold-hearted and narcissistic”. Not a lot, but some. My wants, needs, hopes, dreams, drives and desires are important too. And I had to learn to state them and expect them to be met.
Hope – Jason said it best just above I think. The problem with defining “jerk” is that it is objective. And I think many women go along with an asshat because SHE doesn’t see it, or is too blinded by is pure sex appeal to realize it.
Meanwhile, ask the men who the jerks are and they can point them out in seconds. In some cases, I don’t even need to know a guy to tell he is an asshole.
And, I’ve never once said I wasn’t an asshole myself. I’m completely aware of the fact that I’m opinionated and loud. I’ve been told by several people that I’m an arrogant asshole, but most of them came with at least a grin. The fact is, I speak my mind when I feel comfortable, and my mind is a scary place. I piss people off, but since I don’t like most people, it doesn’t bother me much. I probably would have made a great Roosh or Roissy given a different childhood.
Hope-
I think it’s because (at least in coastal urban areas), East Asian women are much more likely to ‘date out’ than the men are. Lots of women, including Asian women, say they would never date Asian guys (I think there was an okcupid post about this). I can understand how that would cause a lot of bitterness. For women, I think lots of times black women also become very ‘possessive’ of black men, for whom it’s the opposite- the men ‘date out’ more than the women do. And we all know what Satoshi Kanazawa has to say about that…
Yeah, and I don’t even think it’s just a function of being white. It’s a function of being in places where people treat guests/visitors with honor and where the norm is for women to be more submissive and show a lot more respect for men.
Jesus – sorry but aren’t you on record here as displaying dominance with your girlfriend? when you do that you’re displaying the same qualities that a “jerk” does (assuming you aren’t actually one). that means she tingles for those dominant traits.
If you admit that game works on all women, that’s just the flipside to understanding why women tingle for “bad boys.” Like you’ve said yourself, ‘alpha’ and ‘beta’ are hard to define, but there are definitely alpha and beta traits. Most women want a mix of both, and that includes some “jerkishness” when you tease her or display dominance.
@JMahoney #822
“I can attest to girls being hypersensitive to men being hypersensitive to female promiscuity. Many college girls I talked to in bars and clubs brought up their “good” sexual history / low number to me way before I could even ask.” – Underdog #638
I have seen this too.
I think this is true. If women have become aware that bringing up this so early may acquire interest, they must also be aware of the tendency of hooking up with bad dudes, that guys are cautious of.
deti – “For me: I had to learn to stand up for myself. I had to learn to get a little “ruthless, cold-hearted and narcissistic”. Not a lot, but some. My wants, needs, hopes, dreams, drives and desires are important too. And I had to learn to state them and expect them to be met.”
The amazing part is I’m still working on this at my age… Seems like such a simple concept, but after spending years of believing my wants and needs were irrelevant, it isn’t easy even thinking about it, let alone putting it into action.
I learned how to be cold-hearted and logical as a protection mechanism early on though. The problem with that system is its either on or off. It works great to keep the world away, until I let someone in. Then it’s useless.
Ted:
“Alias – my reference to Archie Bunker wasn’t just based on how he treated women. He was also a racist. And if memory serves me well (and these days it doesn’t always) also thought that women mostly “belonged in the kitchen”. Or at least figured they should know their place.
But anyway, my point was that this particular man seems to be stuck in the 1960′s in terms of social norms, roles, constraints, and stereotypes. I’m sorry, but the “jews” are not out to get us, and women shouldn’t always be barefoot in the kitchen.”
——–
I know that you were assigning the negatives of AB to your ex’s S/O but I’m going to stick to AB the character and the way I saw him, which wasn’t negative.
I’m a multiracial Hispanic-American and nothing Archie said offended me. Perhaps it’s because I knew people just like him (am even related to some) and I believe they were simply parroting ideas from their upbringing and lack of personal relationship with anyone different than themselves. Also, I don’t subscribe to the simplistic definition of racist that so many people do and I have no problem whatsoever discussing racial issues and prefer open discussion than forced “tolerance”.
Besides, I’ve heard worse than anything he ever said. It just doesn’t affect me that way, I thought he was hilarious.
But, I’m speaking for myself definitely not for any group.
@Ted D
Why are you surprised? By the time I accepting wanting for myself didn’t make me a bad person I had no idea what I wanted.
Even now the only place I honestly know what I want and can accept it’s okay to both want it and pursue it is in my career. That change has paid off very well in the past couple of years and now I’m trying to add music to that “it’s okay to want and chase what you want” list.
Hope – actually, I’ve called myself an asshole so many times I’m good with the label. I’m just not the kind of asshole we normally discuss here at HUS. I’m an asshole because I believe I’m right, and I don’t care if anyone thinks otherwise. I’m an asshole because I won’t stand for BS, and I call people on it. I”m an asshole because I suspect everyone is up to something until I can determine they are trustworthy.
But, I’m not an asshole because I lie/fake my way into women’s pants.
Purple Sneaks
Don’t be sorry at all. I don’t think “dominance” is the same thing as “jerkiness.” If it were, then I’d have to admit that I act like a jerk sometimes. I’d have to admit that I *am* a jerk sometimes.
But it’s not the same. If Ted and deti and Cooper mean that girls are attracted to a certain degree of dominance traits, then I’d have to agree. But I don’t think that all guys with an attractive level of dominance are douche bags and assholes. When I think of an asshole or a douche bag, I picture someone who treats people badly, someone who’s selfish, someone who lacks empathy.
Herb – I’m not surprised, but I am still amazed. I mean, it really is a simple concept. It just comes with SO much emotional baggage that I can’t simply DO it.
Music is a great outlet for emotional crap. I’ve walked away from it several times in my life because it wasn’t the kind of thing “a responsible man interests himself with”, but I always come back. Now, I’m not only coming back, I’m embracing it. Working on a home studio in fact. I’m hoping to have it all together by the end of the summer, provided nothing major comes up.
I agree with you… but where do we draw the line? We have deti saying that he was raised to believe that if a girl didn’t like you, you should be even nicer to her. The changes he’s made go against that “nice guy” programming. Demanding things or expecting them to be given to you seems, by nature, selfish. But it’s improved his marriage, as has making himself less emotionally available.
purple,
With the exception of making himself less emotionally available (if that is in fact what he said), I think that what deti’s doing in his marriage is great. I think it’s possible to be emotionally available without having to be emotionally dependent.
Otherwise, what he’s doing is great. And it’s not “jerky” at all. Dude’s wife lied to him for 15 yrs and then fessed up about her history at the same moment she was telling him she’s not attracted to him anymore. If anything, that sounds pretty jerky. Deti’s just finally being the man in his marriage.
JM – “When I think of an asshole or a douche bag, I picture someone who treats people badly, someone who’s selfish, someone who lacks empathy.”
For the record, so do I. But, I’ve said before and I’ll say it again, I know no men that are “dominant” but not “assholes”. I can’t think of a single one. Again, they may not be an asshole TO ME, but they are clearly assholes to people that put up with it.
I never did see a real definition of a “benign dominant” leader on the other thread, even though it was mentioned. Someone did say it was like being a parent, but I’m not even close to benign with my children. I have two modes, myself and “dad mode”. The kids know if/when they mess up, they are dealing with “dad mode”. Which is to say, I pretty much relate to my children the way I do my co-workers. As long as they do what they are supposed to (good grades, pickup their crap, etc) I’m cool with them and we get along in a very friendly manner. But, if they cross the line, I go into “dad mode” and all the nonsense stops. I deal out punishment, give speeches as to why they are being punished, and then I go elsewhere to let myself get over feeling like shit for having to punish them. I hate it, but it is my job as a parent. I do it in a very business like manner, and do my best to keep that separate from how I interact with them regularly.
So, again, it may be that I have no concept of what a “benign dominant” person is.
Players don’t always lie or fake their way into women’s pants. One of these who tried to hook up with me in college made it very clear that he wasn’t looking for a relationship, by saying “I’m not looking for anything serious right now.” If I were delusional or really liked him I may have tried to convince myself that it might go somewhere if I hooked up with him, but luckily I didn’t like him that much. But, I guess, true to my nature as a woman, I respected that straightforwardness a lot more than his friend who didn’t make a move until two years after he started liking me and got whiny and upset when I wouldn’t kiss or dance with him.
Ted,
Idk. I can be pretty dominant at times, but I don’t think I act like an asshole.
Jason: “A girl will rationalize that the he was actually a ‘nice guy’ or ‘really sweet’ and blah blah blah (and truly believe it), whereas to everyone in view the guy was an ass.”
If a guy has status & self-confidence and projects masculinity (and is reasonably physically attractive), then a girl will want to give him the benefit of the doubt as to his decency as a human being.
Similarly: if a girl is very attractive and projects femininity, then a guy will want to give her the benefit of the doubt as to her decency as a human being.
Both male power and female beauty are so attractive to the opposite sex that they can cause people to miss very dangerous signs.
Ted D, I don’t know that men can always identify “jerks.” Some player types treat their “bros” really well, are loyal with their buddies, and are rather friendly all around, but then they pump and dump women with no problem. Some guys, like my husband, are loner types who don’t have a ton of male friends. The two of you most likely wouldn’t get along all that well, but does that make him a jerk?
@Ted D
FTR, I am not addressing the use of dread in marital or relationship crises. I have no problem with Athol’s prescriptions, and I think Deti has handled his situation masterfully. I want to be clear that I’m only talking about dread as preventative maintenance for healthy relationships. I think you’ll agree that’s a different story.
That sounds like a milder version of the “destroy it and make it from scratch” idea. I’m not really a fan, though I acknowledge that cures can be painful in and of themselves.
That makes a person an asshole? Welp, guess I’m an asshole too. Though I can’t for the life of me understand how looking out for number 1 makes a person an asshole. Like you, I realized the true nature of people in childhood, so I knew to put up a protective wall and to take care of myself first, but I’ve noticed that people with similar childhoods will make excuses/ put up with all kinds of crap from other people.
How is it then, that you put up with crap from your wife all those years? I’d imagine there would have been some dissonance present.
According to my father, the Walshes even hated the Irish. They fancied themselves English because they’d spent one generation in Liverpool.
It will be necessary that being a slut will be a shame… the history repeats itself, after the age of “being slutty is cool” must come a more conservative trend.
purplesneakers, I think in the romantic realm, young guys sometimes equate “nice” with “being deceptive and not making a move” and “jerk” with “being honest and making a move.” Then they complain that “being nice” got them nowhere. This makes some sense given the lies that have been told to young boys, but it’s still counterintuitive to the more general concept that good = honest and bad = dishonest.
Seriously? Why not just look at the persons character? Thats the only true way to tell someones intentions and to gauge whether or not they are a good person. Do people seriously not consider this? Just because someone
*seems* a certain way certainly doesn’t mean that they are. But I thought that was a Duh moment. If this is truly how other people determine good and bad in a person then I can understand how so many people get screwed over. I never trust the initial impression I get from a person. We all know people put their best face on initially and over time their ugly scars become more visible.
Hope – ” Some player types treat their “bros” really well, are loyal with their buddies, and are rather friendly all around, but then they pump and dump women with no problem”
First of all, players that treat their “bros” really well are still players, and any honest guy will say so. Most of the time, those “bros” are OK with their friends behavior, if they aren’t partaking in it themselves. I’ve known my share of players, mostly friends of friends. They weren’t MY friends because *drum rolls* they were players and I had zero respect for them, no matter how nice they were to me personally.
Same with assholes. I work with a guy that is a total jerk to just about everyone. Its how he gets shit done, by being a bully about it. Early on he tried that with me, and I simply told him that no matter how much he huffed and puffed, I wasn’t going to budge for him until I felt like we had a mutual understanding. We work together just fine now, but he also doesn’t try to pull any shit with me.
And I bet your husband and I would get along just fine, based on the little I know of him. The fact that he is a loner already makes me like him.
Susan – “I want to be clear that I’m only talking about dread as preventative maintenance for healthy relationships. I think you’ll agree that’s a different story.”
Yes I agree.
“That sounds like a milder version of the “destroy it and make it from scratch” idea. I’m not really a fan, though I acknowledge that cures can be painful in and of themselves.”
It is. I’m not sure there is much to save at this point. I’m past wanting to help the few people that might pay attention. I’m thinking more in terms of massive change, probably brought on by massive suffering. We aren’t there yet, and perhaps if enough people catch on we will never get there, but I’m preparing just the same. On an individual level, I’ll keep trying to do the best I can for my children. But other than that, I’m not working the margins. I’m not looking to save souls.
Charm – “How is it then, that you put up with crap from your wife all those years? I’d imagine there would have been some dissonance present.”
Good question! Because I was raised to believe that once I married, I was supposed to keep her happy. And, I was raised to believe the way to make a women happy is to give her what she asks for.
I know it seems really stupid, but the truth is I don’t put up with shit from anyone, except my family and friends.
Again, my walls are thick and solid, but once I let someone past them, I have very few ways to protect myself if they turn out to be bad for me. Its why I am SO, SO careful about judging people’s character.
Aint that the truth. The cad that I worked with never once lied or misled any of the girls he was sleeping with. I think that telling them that he didnt want a gf at the moment made them want him even more. Every girl that he was screwing always had the “I know were just FWBs” attitude and after a certain amount of time it would turn into the “Can’t we be more then FWBs” and he’d get rid of them. It seemed like all those girls wanted to try and tame the bad boy, but none ever did. The challenge in it might be what motivates them to do it.
I’d also like to add that I see a player or a womanizer as someone who does lie to get into pants. A cad is just a guy who openly sleeps around. Though others definitions may vary.
I don’t see the cause for doom and gloom. From where I stand there is so much to be grateful for. The sun, moon, the breeze, H2O, family, friends, food, a peaceful morning, a cup of freetrade organic joe. What is there not to like about life? We humans have the ability for ever increasing self improvement. The sky’s the limit as far as that goes. Inside each woman is a goddess waiting to emerge and inside each man, a god! Seize it. I love whoever wrote that Susan’s blog became the most popular because female adaptations in any field become the standard because they resonate with a wider spectrum of hearts!!! Yes! With women at the helm and men by our side for support and guidance, there is nothing that the sexes cannot do together! I see the world changing for the better. The internet connects me to cultures around the world I’ve never even heard of. Now I can identify with them, empathize with them and support their causes as well! We are becoming more united. Men and women, countries and cultures, humans and animals. We are evolving into a super planet!
I also agree with this http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304724404577297391174489950.html
Though the really revolutionary aspect of sexuality goes missing in that article. Human sexuality has moved beyond either duty or burden and is now even a mechanism for spiritual enlightenment!
Anyone who does not integrate their spirituality with their sexuality is really missing out on something!
Be well, be you, and be happy!
Charm:
“Seriously? Why not just look at the persons character? Thats the only true way to tell someones intentions and to gauge whether or not they are a good person.
Do people seriously not consider this?”
Must you ask? lol
This is the same pass that people give other folks (rich, famous, well-dressed, well-spoken, etc.). I agree that it’s not wise, but it happens, a lot!
@Ted
yea, if they are a good person, with a strong character, odds are they won’t try and take advantage of you anyway. Though, I will give someone close to me more slack with getting on my nerves and crossing my boundaries. Its almost playful, but if a person goes to far, I’ll get pissed off. I think though that because I establish boundaries very early on with people in general, that I don’t have a problem with them crossing them later.
@charm
“I’d also like to add that I see a player or a womanizer as someone who does lie to get into pants. A cad is just a guy who openly sleeps around. ”
Actually, I think your gracious hostess would define them as the exact opposite. The cad is the deceiver. The player or womanizer just has sex without lying.
Yeah.. that’s the sense I’m getting.
fwiw there also those guys intent on sleeping with as many girls as possible who seize any opportunity they see and do things like stay over in their rooms pretending to be too drunk to walk, and then make a move (happened a friend of mine, and she’s fine with hooking up so she went with it). I think this is what most of the college hook-up scene is like. This is also the sense I get from roosh’s blog of how he gets most of his “bangs”… persistence, deception, and carpe diem. I have no respect for this type of guy.
@The Positive Goddess
“With women at the helm and men by our side for support and guidance, there is nothing that the sexes cannot do together!”
Is that your idea of “together”?
Charm – to be sure, my ex-wife IS a good person. If she wasn’t I would have been in deep shit! But, her being a good person had no bearing on the fact that I fully beta’d out after we got married, and she wanted much more “leadership” than I was providing. I quoted leadership because she once told me after we split that she just never felt like I was “leading” the family the way I should. I was working my ass off to afford our house, two car payments, and the other bills. To me, that was leading the family. Looking at who she is with now, she really wanted a guy to tell her what to do, when to do it, and how he liked it. We were doomed to fail without the red pill, as I was raised to ask her what she wanted, not tell her what I wanted.
I’m finding that asking for what I need is very difficult. Not because I can’t speak, but because the only way I know how to GET my way is to be an asshole about it. It always worked with people in general, and I never expected to get what I wanted from my relationship, so I guess I never learned how to be dominant without being an asshole.
deti:
Not to get too personal, you obviously don’t have to answer if you don’t want to, but I’m curious.
You once mentioned something about your sister (re: the carousel) and how she should’ve known better. What did you mean by that?
Was she better prepared for the SMP than you were? Were the girls told to adhere to a particular code of conduct or were they left on their own?
@Alias
No! I want to believe people are better than that. I want to believe.
@History vs Myth573
What’s funnier than atheists talking about religion? Atheists talking about logic. If the Bible does indeed say that Jesus is God (or more accurately his hypostatic Wisdom) then that is a simple proposition. Claiming that the resurrection is not evidence that Christianity is true, because God could not raise Jesus from the dead, because Christianity is false is an example of circular reasoning. Meanwhile I did not address the “is Jesus God?” question, but merely his historical existence so you have engaged in a strawman.
Did he exist in history? What are your sources for saying so? Are they as good as mine? How many documents do we have from within one hundred years of his purported life to support his claims.
The resurrection is the central message of Christianity, and overcame the shame that the crucifixion entailed. We have in Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians a mention of the resurrected Jesus and those who saw him that scholars date back to within 5 years of the crucifixion.
Who said anything about science? The discussion was about the social context in which Jesus lived, and whether he would “slut shame,” which is a matter of history, and history is not science.
Cooper – “Is that your idea of “together”?”
I took that post to be a troll. If it isn’t, then I believe she is in the wrong place with the wrong audience.
Cooper, sure why not? Women are usually better communicators so we are the face and mouth of any successful movement. Susan’s blog is the most popular in its genre even if a few men started it before her. We’re progressing toward a New Earth. With men and women using their positive natural strengths in unison for a better world. Ever heard of the radical honesty movement? No more games! Ask for what you want! Those who are willing to supply, will!
We are ONE.
The Positive Goddess – right. women are better communicators, so men should take the side seat…
Are you sure you aren’t a troll? I really hope you are actually.
I’m all for going off on wild tangents in comment threads, but I think arguing as to whether the Resurrection occurred and Jesus is really the son of God (and, for that matter, whether God exists) is a more than a bit far afield from the purpose of this blog.
I hate this line. It does not appeal to me at all, BUT I know it does it a lot of women. A lot. Why couldn’t she just tell you this is what she needed in the relationship? Is it a shame to say this in the 21st century? I think feminist have made this shameful, but it applies to a lot of women since most women are naturally submissive. Im a very decisive person, so when someone has latched on to me to make decisions for them as well, I get very resentful of it. Its bothersome. I couldn’t imagine the pressure of having to “lead”. Ick.
My last Bf though was the type that only wanted what I wanted. Even when I asked him to choose a place to eat, he never would. It was a combination of him trying to please me all the time and him being extremely indecisive. Needless to say it was a turn off, so I can identify with women on that one. But I will say that I think men are so brainwashed with the “what you want doesnt matter” idea that they really don’t know what they want after a while, so they couldn’t ask for it if they wanted to.
Alias:
I don’t know if my sister was more prepared for the SMP. I guess I thought she “should have known better” because she had had plenty of BFs, some of whom were my good friends. By the time her one and only known foray onto the carousel happened she was no novice in the SMP. She had engaged in various and sundry activities short of P in V pump & dump, but no going all the way until she pulled herself onto the carousel, got pumped and dumped, then quickly jumped off.
My sisters were pretty much left to their own devices. I was the one my parents and family worked to educate and restrain.
@Ted D
You don’t many pagans do you?
I’m pretty sure she’s not a troll…known a lot of people who would sound like that. They can be pretty fun, but if she brings up the honor of being a year king, run
Note, Positive Goddess, that last bit is meant as a joke, please don’t think I’m assuming you’re into sacrifice.
Troll: “With women at the helm and men by our side for support and guidance”
You mean: “with women at the helm and the men by our… the men by… hey, where are the men? He was just here a minute ago.”
That was very diplomatic of you.
This made me laugh out loud. Lol.
@Joy 579
To the best of my recollection I was talking about the social climate in which Jesus moved, which is to say first century Palestine. There were indeed prostitutes in the ancient world (including temple prostitutes), but given the Jews generally strict moral beliefs along with social censure, I don’t see them proliferating in Judea. Go read your Old Testament and there was already the means for taking care of destitute family members. A woman was taken care of alternately by her father, her husband, and then her children. Given the existence of arranged marriage I would say a spinster was practically unheard of. Although there were some prostitutes, as I said, I don’t see them as common.
As a devout Catholic Chesterton would have agreed with you, but he was talking about relative goodness and how as the wicked had proliferated the good men disappeared leaving no one to criticize them. Likewise today, yes many women are acting like sluts, but the good women aren’t standing up and criticizing them.
Charm – well as it turns out your view on leading is about the same as mine. I dislike it, at least in the context my ex-wife wanted it. Im really not 100% sure of what “leadership” my current SO wants/needs, but her ex-husband was a lot like my ex’s current SO, so maybe her and I finally hit it lucky in terms of compatibility. I will say that this is where I still feel I’m on shakey ground. I just dont know how much dominance she needs, and I find trying things out to be too slow and unreliable. I can’t stand working in the dark, which is why I tend to like tasks that are well documented and/or solo so the “rules” don’t matter so much.
It doesnt help that what I thought was my instruction manual for love and marriage turned out to be a book of fairy tales.
Go back to sleep, darling. It was just a dream.
Herb – I haven’t really hung out with an Wiccans or other Pagans since the early 90′s in college (my first time in college that is…)
I don’t remember them being this “new age”, but I suppose I hung out with the ones that were mostly into partying, so less preaching, more drugs and booze. LOL
@ Charm:
+1
It’s like judging a book by the book cover. For some people common sense goes out the window when they see a pretty package (i.e., a “hot” girl/ “alpha” guy).
@ Passer_By:
Agreed! I readily admit I skipped over that comment. I have no desire to read about/debate religion here.
deti:
“My sisters were pretty much left to their own devices. I was the one my parents and family worked to educate and restrain.”
Thanks for replying. Interesting.
@Ted
If I was a man, I’d rather be single then with someone who needs a leader. It aint worth it. I don’t wanna become responsible for another adult. Im sure having children that depend on your guidance is enough. Shouldering the burden of the family’s happiness and security is a bit too much.
Why not just date someone that doesn’t need/want to be led? Let me guess…those women don’t exist is large numbers.
deti – “My sisters were pretty much left to their own devices. I was the one my parents and family worked to educate and restrain.”
It’s funny you mention this. I have two first cousins, both female. My aunts put WAY more effort into helping my mother “restrain” me than they put into either of my cousins. And, in fact, both of those cousins ended up with rather colorful pasts, although both also managed to pull themselves together without too much damage.
Interesting that two different families of women decided it was the boys that had to be “fixed”, isn’t it?
@OffTheCuff
Damnit…you know this is a new tablet, right…
Charm – “Why not just date someone that doesn’t need/want to be led? Let me guess…those women don’t exist is large numbers.”
Well to be honest, I met my current SO prior to taking the “red pill”. I’ve said many times, if I find myself single again, I will never go into the light blindly again!
I’m hoping that my current SO simply doesn’t need much dominance actually, but I’m still working it out. She talks a lot about wanting an egalitarian relationship, which I would find awesome if I currently believed it was possible. Susan claims her marriage is pretty much this, and a few other women have here as well. But, my SO is only 33, so she isn’t necessarily from the same mold, so to speak. And, as much as she thinks we currently are pretty balanced, I feel like I’m having to up it a little bit to be where we are, which means we aren’t balanced at all. I can say that she claims to not like the idea of a “captain and first officer” relationship, as she feels like that is too one-sided. But, I also know that what a woman says she wants and what she actually wants is often not the same, so I’m not taking her words as gospel just yet.
God, I feel so icky just saying that. It sounds so chauvinistic to say “what a woman says she wants and what she actually wants aren’t always the same”, even though women here have agreed with the statement. Seriously, how am I supposed to know the difference?
“with women at the helm and the men by our… the men by… hey, where are the men? He was just here a minute ago.”
Oh he’s right here by my side! Positive men are drawn like magnets to positive women!
“Oh he’s right here by my side! Positive men are drawn like magnets to positive women!”
I”m positive I’m not drawn to anyone that wants me to take the side seat. And I can’t take anyone seriously that believes women are the better communicators. Men are terrific communicators, they just don’t sugar coat the truth.
@The Positive Goddess
“Cooper, sure why not?” hahahah, OK. Since you asked.
I don’t think many people would describe an analogy such as, ““With women at the helm and men by our side for support and guidance,” as a eptiome of “using their positive natural strengths in unison for a better world.”
“We are ONE.” So as long as women are at the helm, right? If we’re truly ONE, then say a man could be at the helm, using his communication skills too, right?
Apropos of good girls liking bad boys, a little humor for the day.
A woman to her minister: “My parrot’s previous owner must have been a crude sort, because he has a filthy tongue that embarrasses me whenever visitors drop by.”
Minister: “I have a very pious female parrot that does nothing but pray all day long, and if you put your male parrot in the same cage with her, she’ll be a good influence on him.”
So, they put the parrots together with a cover over the cage and listened in:
Male Parrot: “Yo, bitch, look at the tail feathers on you. Get your ass over here and turn around for daddy. You know want it, baby!”
Female Parrot, looking skyward: “Thank you, Lord, I always had faith you were listening.”
“Why couldn’t she just tell you this is what she needed in the relationship?”
Because she’s not heard of the radical honesty movement. There’s a whole bunch of positive change taking place in the world. Jump on board! Ask, you shall receive! The games can end. But do we as collective humanity want them too? That is the question. Think about it.
@PositiveG
“Jump on board! Ask, you shall receive!”
HAHAHAHA OK. I’ll bite.
What. is. the. radical. honesty. movement?
This should be good.
Anyone else hear that faint sound in the background?
*hand to ear* Oh! It’s getting louder….. sounds like
“trololololololoLOLLOLOL”
@Passer_By869
I agree with you. It started as a side reference to first century Palestinian culture and some Christ Myther turned up.
My apologies Susan. I should know better than to respond to trolls.
“We are ONE.” So as long as women are at the helm, right? If we’re truly ONE, then say a man could be at the helm, using his communication skills too, right?”
Right! If that’s your strength, use it! The important thing is radical honesty. State what you want, align it with congruency in action, and the universe will provide! Radical honesty is a beautiful way of life.
@The Positive Goddes
I want a kind woman who matches my sexual tastes, loves music, dresses well, wants to have children (and is young enough to do so), finds me incredibly interesting and sexy, and is a redhead. I also want two band mates, a string player and a female vocalist, who can psychicly understand my musical direction and agree with it and I want us to be the break through ethereal band that redefines pop music and makes a lot of money.
Oh, yeah, and this: http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1987/01/13
Cooper RH is a growing group of men and women who make being honest and transparent in all our dealings as a primary ethic. Example, instead of playing games about what you want from a partner or prospective partner, you flat out state it. No matter what it is. When people enter into a radical honesty agreement amongst one another, its like a load has been lifted off our shoulders. Imagine no longer having to play coy or engage other subtle cues to try and manipulate the situation in your favor. With another radically honest person, you can cut through all the bullshit and just state your desires, your feelings, you ideas in a clear concise way. It’s the most liberating thing on earth.
Thats the best part! Its highly ambiguous. Though, your SO saying she wants a equal relationship is pretty upfront. It could be that shes aware of what she truly wants or that shes just regurgitating some bullshit. Only time will tell. Though even the most “equal” relationships have so degree of imbalance. 50/50 would be a headache. I like the 60/40 model myself, but I’d probably strive for 55/45 as I like to pull my own weight.
Positive Goddess
I’ve always want to ask a troll this: Why waste your time trolling? What do you get out of it serious?
Herb, you can have it all. You’re limiting belief system tells you that you can’t. I use to be the same way until a conscious shift happened and now I have the life and partner I’ve always wanted. It started with being grateful for what I did have and focusing in on only the positives in life. From there it evolved into conscious co-creating. I’ve currenlty co-crafted an ideal lifestyle. It didn’t happen over night and it didn’t happen just by dreaming about it all the while complaining about reality. Conscious co-creating means creating has to be done. That means work. This is not for the lazy!
“Herb, you can have it all.”
Even the pony?
Even the pony, Herb. Even the pony.
Lol.
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