Katie Roiphe has published an article at Slate: It’s Not Just Rush: Liberals slut-shame just as much, in which she decries the pervasive slut shaming in our society:
These judgments, about women who sleep around or sleep with the wrong people or fail to settle down, these vicious or catty bursts of rage, or calm-holier-than-thou reflections on other people’s sluttiness or condescending screeds about how pathetic or sad or distasteful or lonely or sleazy it is to live so outside of conventional life, persist through all age groups and social strata, in big cities and small towns, on television news programs watched by millions, and on liberal blogs.
What can I say? I find this development encouraging. I’m never quite sure what to make of Katie Roiphe. She’s the daughter of an ardent and famous feminist, but in 1994 she burst on the scene with The Morning After: Fear, Sex and Feminism, a book that held women accountable for choices that served to put them in danger of sexual assault. From an article at the New York Times:
One of the questions used to define rape was: ‘Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs?’ The phrasing raises the issue of agency. Why aren’t college women responsible for their own intake of alcohol or drugs? A man may give her drugs, but she herself decides to take them. If we assume that women are not all helpless and naive, then they should be responsible for their choice to drink or take drugs. “If a woman’s ‘judgment is impaired’ and she has sex, it isn’t always the man’s fault; it isn’t necessarily always rape.
Obviously, this view put her squarely at odds with sex-positive feminists, infuriating Katha Pollitt and other prominent feminists of the time. One imagines she wouldn’t be welcome, or interested in attending a local Slut Walk.
In a 1997 book review a writer for the LA Times criticized Roiphe for not embracing the Sex as Empowerment Scam:
For Roiphe, who is 28, the sexual revolution of the ’60s had nothing to do with a desire to create a more erotic and more egalitarian society. Instead, Roiphe focuses on “bikinis from France, and the Pill, and nudity in movies, and honest and open marriages, and no-fault divorces” and then notes that “paradise” mysteriously failed to materialize. She is like the theatergoer who takes her seat during the second act and then loudly whispers to everyone around her that the plot makes no sense.
Mistakenly, Roiphe believes that the sexual revolution consisted simply of “having sex with as many people as you could.” She is oblivious to the fact that the sexual revolution–at least for many women–was less about mindless promiscuity than about finding newer, truer, less sexist and more ecstatic ways of being sexual. It was about the experience, not just the numbers; about creating something, not just getting lucky.
Fifteen years later, we all know that few found “newer, truer, less sexist and more ecstatic ways of being sexual.” They found ways of being sexual that were risky, superficial, awkward and unsatisfying. The sexual double standard is as prominent as ever, being biologically determined and therefore immutable. If anything, men have become hypersensitive to female promiscuity, warily inquiring about a woman’s number before investing one ounce of emotional energy.
So why is Katie Roiphe suddenly writing in defense of sluts?
In fact the trope of “sluts” is perpetuated in liberal circles as well as conservative ones, and there is a much more widespread tendency to judge women for their sex lives than we like to admit. There is a great deal of unacknowledged, uninterrogated contempt for women who are perceived as promiscuous, floating around even in right-thinking, fashionable, urban, blue-state pockets of the world.
…The slut is not a mythical creature on college campuses, a unicorn or dodo bird, vanished from the vernacular, in other words. The girls talk about being sluts or feeling like sluts or other girls being sluts, and if this seems exotic or surprising to us, we can think back to our own college lives, or to yesterday, when we heard someone expressing something very much like that over coffee about someone else for a sexual encounter, or sexual style or sexual existence they don’t approve of for one reason or another.
I can’t explain Roiphe’s mysterious mid-life conversion to sympathy for sluthood at the age of 44, but I can note that female promiscuity is not a problem “for one reason or another.” It is directly responsible for the near disappearance of fulfilling and intimate cross-sex relationships among young people in college, the mistaken and tragic sense that most college students have of themselves as sexual “losers,” the rapid rise of sexually transmitted diseases in the U.S., and the creation of a “spinster class” of women now in their 30s and 40s.
If liberals are willing to shame promiscuity, that’s a good thing, a rare example of people working effectively across the aisle. Let’s not forget the manwhores while we’re at it, OK? The sooner the casual sex culture gasps its last breath, the sooner we can begin to repair the harm to our young women and men, as well as the most important societal institutions of marriage and family.
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Mike C is right about one change I’ve made in my attitude. I used to judge cads – I define them as someone who lies to get into a women’s pants – and give players a free pass. In fact, I used to link to some blogs by players and was even fond of a few. I even let one or two guest post here. I figure if everything is out in the open, I have no reason to judge players.
My thinking on that has evolved somewhat. Part of what I argue about promiscuity is that it’s bad for society and our most important institutions. That’s partly how I justify slut shaming. If that’s true for women, then it’s true for men too. It’s certainly not a mark of good character when a guy sleeps around with a ton of people. And I think it makes future fidelity in relationships less likely. Ultimately, I think casual sex demeans both parties. So while I don’t personally dislike players or sluts, I do judge their behavior as detrimental, on several levels.
Herb, do you doubt it? Then you can’t have it.
Herb:
” I want;
-a kind woman who matches my sexual tastes, loves music, dresses well, wants to have children (and is young enough to do so), finds me incredibly interesting and sexy, and is a redhead.
-two band mates, a string player and a female vocalist, who can psychicly understand my musical direction and agree with it
-to be the break through ethereal band that redefines pop music and makes a lot of money.
- Oh, yeah, and this: http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1987/01/13”
————
You think Santa can fit ALL of this in his sleigh? I think he may have to make several trips and charge you for shipping and for handling that redhead!
Is The Positive Goddess Plain Jane? I don’t know anymore! Plain Jane is hopping around IP addresses faster than I can type.
@Alias
I didn’t even know elves made redheads!
*starts erasing christmas list*
“I figure if everything is out in the open, I have no reason to judge players.”
This is true. The world needs more radical honesty, not less of it. If promiscuous men stop being honest about their intentions what is the alternative? Lies, deception, unhappiness, bitterness, anger and resentment.
LOL! Honestly, that bit about women being at the helm. WTF. I think she got lost on the way to feministing.
@Alias and Cooper
I’ll cover shipping but there better be no handling by elves and certainly none I’m paying for.
If we all start doubting you, will you leave?
@Charm
Well, that solves the shipping issue…the redhead can just ride the pony.
Although, if I get a pony Twilight Sparkle might get jealous (she’s on my desk at work…long story involving a very interesting blogger and her theory the characters of MLPFiM are a D&D party).
@Susan
Since we are now at the point of thread disillusion am I the only one who has misread the name of that site as a sexual practice common among lesbians?
Cooper:
“I didn’t even know elves made redheads!
*starts erasing christmas list*”
Oh, those elves are quite handy.
Erasing? Just email them your list, they’ve gone green.
You are all missing the point. The world does not have to be comprised of drab or malicious characters playing out scenarios of doom and gloom. Change your attitude and you will see your environment changing to match it.
@JM
“If we all start doubting you, will you leave?”
LOL+1
@The Positive Godess
Your*
I assume grammar did not get a “positive” high score on your grade card, hence the total abandonment of it.
I have a question for the guys here. Actually, I’d like everyone’s opinion. It concerns a conversation I had with a young woman this weekend. Here’s the story.
Tim seems like a nice guy. He is 23, affable, and not inclined to pick up women in bars like his friends do. He’s generally viewed as the BMOG by his douchey friends.
For two months, Tim has been hooking up with Celia. Celia has a serious boyfriend. A month ago he moved to LA, and hopes she will join him soon. However, by that time she was already having sex with Tim, and, as it happens, with Eric, a guy from another friend group. Since her bf moved, she’s been trying to spend the night at Tim’s place as often as possible.
Tim’s girl pals don’t like what Tim is doing. They disrespect Celia, and they say that Tim is so wonderful and cute, he can do better. He says, “I’m just so tired of being the nice guy.”
Meanwhile, another girl has developed a crush on Tim, calling him an adorable beta (yes, she reads HUS, obvs). When she told me this I gave her the raised eyebrow. I don’t think Tim sounds like a good relationship prospect at all. She argues that Tim is just taking an opportunity that is being handed to him, and Celia’s cheating is not his responsibility. I think it’s sketchy, and shows a certain moral fluidity. I advised her to nip it in the bud and look elsewhere.
What do you think?
FeralEmployee you make a great example of someone looking for tiny insignificant faults in the world while remaining oblivious to underlying goodness. Like I said, don’t sweat the small stuff, focus on the positive and the positive will focus on you!!!!!!!!!!! Focus on the small shit and you’ll age into a grumptious curmudgeon before your time! That’s not hot!
Herb:
“I’ll cover shipping but there better be no handling by elves and certainly none I’m paying for.”
It’s Santa, the top alpha, you got to worry about.
Sleigh riding and a beta provider picking up the tab.
Sound familiar?
Yea, nip it in the bud. Maybe this guy was a good prospect once. Maybe he’ll be a good prospect again. Maybe. But if he’s “tired of being the nice guy” right now and he’s banging some other guy’s gf, then he’s obviously not in good shape for a relationship.
@susan
Without knowing Tim, I’d say nothing there says he doesn’t have relationship potential, assuming he’s not friends with Celia’s BF.
But, this girl should ask why suddenly developed a crush on him (probably coincident with his getting a hook up partner). Sounds like the gal pals are all annoyed that their beta orbiter is not following his script.
But, if she does want to move forward, given that he already has a regular FB, she’ll need to make clear that he has to nip that in the bud before they get going. Otherwise, he’ll start to think he has stumbled onto a “rotation”.
I wondered about this too.
@ Susan
Neither Tim nor Celia are good relationship prospects. I skimmed I wasn’t sure if the person asking the question was Celia.
Susan
You’re right. She needs to leave Tim alone but it looks as if she won’t listen. Of course, you didn’t tell us much about this girl who doesn’t sound all that “good. (using JM’s definition)”
“She argues that Tim is just taking an opportunity that is being handed to him”
plus
He hangs out with douchey friends.
Expect more of this, little grasshopper, expect more. Don’t come crying later.
@Susan
To make sure I’ve got this right:
Celia is currently entertaining unnamed BF in LA, Tim, and Eric.
Suddenly, Tim who hasn’t previously gotten crushes from women in his social circle now is the object of a crush by Hooking Up Smart Reader Girl. Tim’s other female friends at slut shaming Celia but aiming the slut shaming at Tim.
Meanwhile HUSRG is defending Tim as just finally taking advantage of the situation.
If I’m right in reading this.
1. HUSRG is possibly right, that Tim is just now finally getting some action (maybe he had a bit of red pill and is taking advantage of it).
2. Even if #1 is true HUSRG needs to stay away for two reasons. First, her new found interest may just be pre-selection kicking in. Why is she crushing on him now that he’s banging a slut? Second, even assuming #1 is true does she think his first taste of slut will be enough? I suspect that if he’s a beta finally getting it there is going to be a slutting period because, hey, why not. If so, does HUSRG want to be one of the girls he sluts it up with, hoping she’ll get some kind of pass when (if) he quits and get the gf spot.
3. If #1 is wrong HUSRG is even more likely to be a notch instead of a person if she follows through on the crush.
While your point about moral fluidity stands I think it’s irrelevant to HUSRG taking care of herself. Even if she’s right and he’s just a starving man at the buffet you don’t put you arm in front of him while he’s filling his plate. You’re likely to lose it.
SW 916:
Yes, she should nip it in the bud.
1. Tim’s not a good relationship prospect, but not for the reasons you think. Sure, he’s going for what he can get. But Celia’s using him, and I don’t think Tim gets that. He’s going to get butthurt when Celia dumps him and then your correspondent won’t like him when he reverts to his beta self.
2. Passer By is onto something. I think your correspondent should consider why she’s crushing on Tim. I think she is digging Tim because Tim has all of a sudden shown an ability to pull some ass and she likes it. She has found that Tim at least seems to have it in him after all.
Sue, stop looking at IP address, as much a brand-new handles materializing into a 1000-comment thread, with a deep knowledge of the topic at hand that they almost seem like a regular, with the a smarmy feminist slant.
As for Tim, is this a trick question? Now, if she’s fine with some other woman sleeping with *her* Tim when she’s dating… then go right ahead. If not, then she should avoid Tim.
It amazes me that people think known cheaters won’t cheat on *them*.
@Susan #916
That’s a difficult situation. But I’d suggest the girl go after Tim. It sounds as though Tim was on the receiving end with Celia, and although it doesn’t reflect well upon him, he wasn’t been able to resist the hookup.
If all Tim’s gal friends think he’s so “wonderful and cute,” then why hasn’t any of them snagged him? Why has it taken Tim to hookup for the HUS-reader to develope a crush?
It would be hard, for Tim, to take the high road – the “can do better” attitude – when the people suggesting it to him didn’t think he was good enough for them.
I’m really curious as to why the HUS-reader developed a crush for Tim once he was sleeping around. It couldn’t be improving his image, could it?
Also, who’s the unnamed friend in L.A.? Is he a friend of Tim’s as well? If so, then I’d say that that’s very damning for Tim. Banging your friend’s gf is serious, IMO. Even if she is throwing herself at you…
@The Positive Goddess
But if I focus on the positivi..derp..blerp..daargh (here be exclamation marks), then I become a hippie like you
I mean, I know you want to save the Earth, but all you do is smoke pot and smell bad. I know that if you focus you have too much casual sex, you become HIV-positive, if that’s what you meant?
Celia’s behavior would be surprising from a fan of Hooking Up Smart. Sounds more like Whoring Up Skank.
OK. I’m gonna go ahead and take Tim’s side. (for the sake of the argument)
I think Tim should avoid HUSRG cause she has developed a crush based on whatever short-term imagine she has created since he started hooking up. Whatever that means, means she could very well “fall out of” the feelings once he stops this behavoir.
I think passer_by had a notable point:
“Sounds like the gal pals are all annoyed that their beta orbiter is not following his script.”
Is everyone else really saying we should cast Tim a man-whore (and unworthy of LTR), cause he’s had one questionable hookup?
From all I’ve read here on HUS, wouldn’t a girl be excused from at least a few of these due to deceptive men.
Who knows maybe Celia is truly deceiving Tim into thinking she’s has genuine feelings for him.
A really good question: Does Tim know about Eric?
Well, I’m clearly outnumbered here, but I’m not sure what people want from poor old Tim. When he was the nice guy, he was rewarded by keeping company with rosy palm and her five hairy friends. Now, he gets wise, and is getting some for himself. It’s not his job to manage Celia’s relationship (assuming he’s not friends with the BF and didn’t pursue her excessively to seduce her, which I doubt he had in him).
So, if he’s not relationship material, then he never could be, because these women friends of his clearly didn’t REALLY consider him relationship material (at least not for them) when he wasn’t getting any. He didn’t invent preselection. Now, might he have been better off not getting involved in Celia’s tangled mess and finding someone else to hook up with? Sure, but real life is messy and doesn’t always work out just right.
But if she’s going to make her feelings known, she should also say she isn’t comfortable starting to see him while he’s hooking up with C. No sense in volunteering to be a harem girl.
Tim is currently a bad bet for a relationship. If nothing else he is showing questionable moral compass and a lack of concern for other people’s relationships. What makes this girl think he would be any more concerned with his own?
@ JM
“Banging your friend’s gf is serious, IMO. Even if she is throwing herself at you…”
If there was ever a guaranteed way to make yourself an outcast amongst your social circle this is it.
“Celia’s behavior would be surprising from a fan of Hooking Up Smart. Sounds more like Whoring Up Skank.”
Lol, good point.
Re-read.
Run HUS girl, run.
PB – I didn’t say I blamed Tim. The question was from the young lady asking about Tim’s risk as a LTR partner. My honest assessment is that he is currently higher risk based on his behavior. I don’t blame him at all, but it is what it is.
Generally, when the guy says “I’m just so tired of being the nice guy”, the girl may want to stay away from him if she’s relationship-oriented. Seems like he’s about to swallow the red pill and start fucking everything in sight before settling back down into a more well-rounded man. I don’t think many girls want to settle down with “nice guy” BMOGs in the long run anyway.
Susan
It’s the 2nd girl asking you for advice, not Tim, right?
Ok. Obviously Susan posed the question in order to initiate a discussion, and since everyone has taken one side, I feel compelled to defend Tim. (if nothing more, for the sake of Susans’ discussion)
Wasn’t just 2 thread ago, we’re discussing Emileigh’s copious hook up history, and how she may, or may not, have a difficult time being considered LTR-material. I think the general consensus was she ought to be honest, and that some men will never consider her LTR-material cause of the promsicious past.
Now Tim is being cast a man-whore for a single hook up?
Has Tim even been promiscious by the standard definition?
So why are we coming down so hard on a guy screwing up once? (cause in my mind Emileigh did over, and over, and over again)
@Passer_by
I wasn’t asked for advice for Tim. If I was, from what I know, it would be to ignore any offers from his female friends who before LJBFed him, including HUSRG. If “you’re a great guy and any woman would be lucky to have you” was their line, well they choose to be unlucky.
However, I might return the LJBF behavior and use their new interest to provide some pre-selection on woman who might now be interested who are relationship material and not prior rejectors.
@Cooper
Hell, no…if I was 23 I’d probably be offering to be his wing man next time he’s around his female friends. Nor do I think long term he isn’t LTR material.
However, I was asked advice for HUSRG. She appears to be one of the LJBF girls who realized the boy can lay pipe so maybe we should be more than friends. As deti and you pointed out her tingles may not last.
More importantly, even if they do how do we know he’s gotten his taste and now is ready to mono it up. He’s likely to want to get some for a while and P&D a girl who has been LJBF could be pretty damn appealing.
So, to both of you…I’m glad Tim’s not betaing it up any more although I hope he’s wearing quality condoms. I hope he limits the sluting it up and uses it mostly to attract the attention of a decent woman who he doesn’t have a prior rejection history with (both to not reward LJBF and avoiding a relationship that will probably have contempt elements on his part).
But I still won’t advise HUSRG to pursue. She’s not sure where he’s going and could be a target of ire (ie, a grudge fuck) if she’s not careful.
She’s better off wondering if maybe the other Tims in her life deserve a second look before they become a hazard for her specifically even if not for other women.
@Ted
“My honest assessment is that he is currently higher risk based on his behavior. I don’t blame him at all, but it is what it is.”
My honest belief is that she unlikely to find a better one to whom she’s attracted in her immediate future, based on the current SMP as described here and elsewhere, and based on the fact that women don’t seem to find the good relationship prospects attracted. There is risk everywhere, but if he is willing to give up his regular hookup to pursue this, then he is likely to be serious about it.
The argument that he would not treat his own relationship seriously because he banged someone else who was putatively in a relationship is specious, I think. We don’t know anything about Celia’s relationship, but obviously it wasn’t that serious on her end if she’s gettin’ with two other guys. And for all we know BF cheated on her a bunch to precipitate this.
But, as I said, if Tim was friends with BF, all this is out the window. Massive BRO Code violation.
@Susan
Wow. I have a feeling that Tim was once a good prospect, then met Celia and could feel his SMV changing. What he doesn’t ‘feel’ is his LTR prospects dropping like a rock.
He may actually be one of the rare types who can be a good man – if (big if) he finds the right girl. Is your friend the right girl? Possibly, but probably not. He needs to mature (a lot) and I’m guessing from the limited information given about her that she’s not yet up to the task of being with someone who needs to grow up.
I don’t want to make Tim sound like the guy who needs some fictional good woman to change him. He’s not that person. With or without a woman’s help he’s going to change regardless, because his situation is very fluid. The only question is, will he change for the better?
That’s going to depend a lot on the people around him, especially but not exclusively on the women with whom he gets involved.
@underdog
“Generally, when the guy says “I’m just so tired of being the nice guy”, the girl may want to stay away from him if she’s relationship-oriented.”
I took him to mean “I’m tired of being the nice guy who gets LJBF’d by the likes of you and has to take “matters” into his own hands every night.” I didn’t take it to mean “I’m tired of being the nice guy even if that nice guy gets a nice girl friend who sexes him up.” Of course, if HUSGirl is reading the comments, she has probably lost attraction to Tim as a result of this imagery. Sorry, Tim.
@underdog
Also, how can you name yourself “Underdog” and not side with an underdog like Tim. Shameful!!
Passer_By March 26, 2012 at 6:05 pm
@underdog
Also, how can you name yourself “Underdog” and not side with an underdog like Tim. Shameful!!
I’m actually rooting for Tim to man the fuck up and start banging girls left and right and learn to fully use the power of his manhood before going back into beta mode and settle down with HUSRG.
Where Tim is right now on the beta scale, if HUSRG settled with him, in the long run, he will be spending his days wishing he had the chance to fuck around and she will be wishing he wasn’t such a boring beta.
@Passer_by
By prior LBDFing Tim HUSRG has probably eliminated the possibly of him seeing her as “nice girl friend who sexes him up” by not finding him interested in banging sluts. Even if he wants to be nice the “well, how I’m treating this chick is what makes you wet so clearly to keep you I need to treat you the same”.
And that’s assuming he wouldn’t give into the temptation of grudge fucking and putting the pictures on Facebook of every woman who LJBFed him and now wants a ride. Would you encourage a woman to risk that trap just to support a bro? No, there are plenty of other women he can form a relationship with that lacks said baggage.
that should be “before he was banging sluts”.
In regards to the Tim situation, it’s a bit sketchy to me. I don’t like the fact that he’s sleeping with a woman he knows has a boyfriend. I know it’s not his personal responsibility to make sure that Celia keeps her legs shut, but the situation still rubs me the wrong way. If you are willing to help someone cheat, what exactly is more noble about that situation?
@herb
Well, we’re reading between a lot of lines here. We don’t know his particular history with this particular girl. But, like I said in my first comment, she needs to ask why she is suddenly attracted to him. If she had previously LJBF’d him and is now suddenly interested, I’d say forget it. But that isn’t because of his relationship material. It’s more because of her not being relationship material as it relates to him.
You have to give some credit to Tim: despite his douchey friends, he refrained from picking up women at bars. While his current status seems to be working against him, he did retain a level of morality, hence not a lost cause.
I’d say he needs a two-step program: lay off the douchey friends, then regain dominance. Have the friends that recognize the situation alert him to the fullest of what he may be heading to if he proceeds. The time is not ripe for him to initiate a new relationship. Keeping the course as is, will simply plunge him deeper into contempt (which he showed for his “nice guy” status).
Of course, this is just my take, and coming from an engineering background, I’d need way more details, primarily concerning Tim: his past and his level of awareness in this whole situation.
OK, I give up. HUSGirl can continue on being lonely and unable to find a bf, and then grow old until she surrounds herself with cats. You guys win. Happy, now?!!! Huh?
@Passer_By
Bingo…once a woman hard LJBFs a guy she’s probably insured she’ll never be relationship material for him. At least, not if he breaks out of the beta orbitter world.
Passer_By March 26, 2012 at 6:24 pm
“OK, I give up. HUSGirl can continue on being lonely and unable to find a bf, and then grow old until she surrounds herself with cats. You guys win. Happy, now?!!! Huh?”
HUSRG have no one to blame for that but:
1. This feminist society for emasculating Tim and turning him into a “nice guy” BMOG.
2. Celia for giving Tim a taste of poon and reawakening the hungry tiger within.
3. Herself for not seeing Tim for the good man he is until it’s too late. Which I think is a good thing because if she did, Tim would still be a clueless beta happily plugged into the Matrix.
Has anyone considered Tim is being used by Celia?
It sounds as though she may need a place to stay more so than liking Tim.
I think HUSRG is right in saying “that Tim is just taking an opportunity that is being handed to him.”
If she has true feeling for him, then she should confront him about it, and see if he’s willing to stop his behavoir.
Gentleman.
Focus on the question at hand.
Should HUS girl give Tim a chance?
Tims quality of life/ relationship worthiness himself are not being questioned.
P.S Susan if this was a test you made you point fairly quickly.
I think the “tired of being a nice” says that he was indeed lonely till Celia paid attention to him. If all this years he was nice and none of his female friends decided to paid attention to him is hard to blame him, an undersexed man can get to a point that any willing woman sounds good even if she is a whore, like Celia is.
I think Susan should ask the girl why now? Why in all those years he was not banging bar sluts she never made her move before Celia appeared on the picture? What she banging her own male version of Celia,instead of trying to date a guy she though it was nice before?
I think she should leave him alone he has enough problems already, he is not doing the most moral thing but then doing the most moral thing didn’t gave him any affection except from the cheating skank, incentive drive behavior. Tim is in a crucial time in which he will decided of being not nice is better for him than being nice and she shouldn’t get in the way, she can hurt herself or hurt him if after breaking up with Celia she finds her crush on him disappearing, She should let him run his course and if after Celia moves on she still has this feelings then maybe try to see were things can go for both, not before that, YMMV.
Wow, I went out for a bit and you guys gave great responses! OK, let me clarify.
The core friend group is a college crowd from VA that wound up in Boston. Celia is part of that group, but Tim is new to the group. His roommate is one of the guys in the group. HUS reader is brand new to the group – she was invited along recently by an old high school friend who went to college with this crew. So – Tim is newish, and HUS reader is brand new.
However, HUS reader told me that although she thought he was cute from the start, she knew he was hooking up with Celia. Honestly, I do think there’s some preselection here. She’s probably tingled by the fact that this nice “beta” has captured the attention of Celia the copious copulator. It’s massive preselection b/c girls like Celia are ultra hypergamous (Mike C, this one’s for you
).
Tim and Celia have been hooking up for two months, they’ve probably had sex at least a couple dozen times. The first month Celia was sneaking around to see him, even showering on some occasions after sexing him up before going to meet her bf. (Gossip provided by college biddies.) This last month has been much easier to manage. Apparently, when the two are out with the group, Tim ignores Celia, but at closing time, he simply walks up to her and says “North End.” (That’s some pretty dominant behavior, IMO. Not so sure about the beta label.)
Tim does not know Celia’s boyfriend, although all the other douchey guys do, as they all went to college together. I have no idea why none of them have told him. By sheer coincidence, Eric, who is Celia’s other cheatee, is a very good friend of HUS reader’s from high school. Boston is a small town in some ways. He describes her as a psycho bitch who calls him 60 times in a row until he picks up.
I don’t think it’s Tim’s responsibility to look out for Celia’s absent bf. But like Sassy said, it just rubs me the wrong way. He’s not cheating, but I feel like he’s participating in a cheating scam, and that makes him more likely to cheat in future. I don’t know that, it just gives me pause. Basically, it’s a red flag, or maybe an orange one – why risk it? I say just filter that boy out.
Also, HUS reader admits these guys are all cocky manwhores. The fact that Tim is spending all his time with them says at least something about his character. Then again, HUS reader is also spending time with them, so maybe she’s also sketchy or maybe you really shouldn’t judge people by association.
Finally, Celia has gotten wind of HUS reader’s crush and told her to back off. HUS reader said she has no respect whatsoever for Celia’s “claim” on Tim and will do as she likes. I suspect this has gotten back to Tim, who suddenly has a new gleam in his eye.
Tim, Celia, Eric, the gal pals, the whole lot ‘em just need to lay it all out on the table. Flat out! What do they want? They need to state it to each other. That’s the only way of ever getting what you want. State it. Those who can accomodate you will. Those who can’t won’t. Its so very simple. HONESTY, PEOPLE! HONESTY.
Funny how babies and small children know this but its lost on adults.
FeralEmployee, it sucks for you that equate honesty and positivity with joint toking hippiedom and bad smells, but I can’t say I’m surprised. That’s called “poverty consciousness” or “coming from a place of lack” and its the sad state of mind of many, many people in this world. And a major reason why Big Pharma has such a stronghold over y’all.
Should HUS girl give Tim a chance?
Yes. (imo)
@lokland
We know this is obviously a test, what was it about though?
I can’t help but think that it was in contrary to the opinion brought forward while discussing Emileigh.
Susan, I hope you inform us of your conclusion.
@#958
nevermind, it seems you just did, #956
@Alias (LOL, that’s just slightly less anon than Anonymous)
Yeah, HUS reader is one of my focus group girls. I know her well, and I know this situation pretty well so no need to read between the lines. Now that I’ve said that, I’m sure I’ll be stumped by the next question.
@Underdog
I think that’s what’s bothering me. Is he really going to go from f*cking some uber slut to being a model bf for someone new? My guess is that he’s getting mad social proof from his new friends, and wants to ride the wave. I can’t say I blame him. At the very least, the timing is off.
And 23? Sigh, HUS reader knows I think she should be going for guys older than that. She understandably points out that she doesn’t know any.
@Susan
“And 23? Sigh, HUS reader knows I think she should be going for guys older than that.”
So, should I stick my head in the sand until I’m older?
Susan
I’ve known guys like Tim. He doesn’t adhere to the “bro code.” It doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a bad apple, just means that he will go for a girl who goes for him.
Men have their intrasexual competition just like women do, and it usually comes down to who is the guy who is the most “dominant” and can “get” the girl.
I saw this most recently with a husband who lost his wife to a former friend! My husband and I are semi-friends with the ex-husband, who was very devastated. I wonder if the new guy ever pauses to think that he poached a woman who could be tempted away.
This whole situation sounds messy. Nowadays I wouldn’t touch it with a ten-foot-pole, but I will admit that in our younger, foolish days, both my husband and I had been in strange love triangles. That’s also how we know that love triangles are retarded and sucky, and we know to stay the hell away.
No, it wasn’t! I heard about this on Friday evening, and I’ve been thinking about it, that’s all. Maybe I should write the screenplay. If Tim really is a good guy, then he might be right for HUS reader, who is one of the low number girls in the groups. But the timing may just not be right – and how is HUS reader going to feel following Celia’s act? She’s not terribly experienced, and he’s been shacking up with a pro. I think I agree with Anacaona – if, some months down the road, the attraction is mutual, sure, why not. He needs to process this experience and figure out what he wants. I don’t even know if he’s done hooking up with Celia, though he told HUS reader “that’s not an issue.”
Cooper
No. That’s silly. All the guys I dated were under 25 when I first met them, including my husband. You just have to be more proactive and talk to more girls.
@Cooper
No, because you’ve expressed a desire for an LTR. But lots of guys don’t feel that way until they’re in their mid to late 20s. Some guys right out of college are still totally in the hookup mentality.
Susan,
Wow, that backstory is enough drama for a show on the WB… (or CW, I supposed I’m showing my age, haha)
I would say NO. HUS reader should back away and find someone not marred in this mess. She should try to skip dating within the group altogether IMO, and save herself any headaches.
However, I doubt she will do this! She’s invested in this drama already and now “getting Tim” isn’t just about the guy but is now also about beating her new rival, Celia. Her ego is now a factor.
Honestly, I see this ending badly for all. Yet, Tim will be the winner in the short run because in the near future he can say he hooked up with Celia and HUSRG…
Susan, from my very removed standpoint, I say HUS reader girl needs to A) find a different social group and B) forget about these people altogether. However, I know what it’s like to be in your early 20s and not wanting to let go of a social group — though I never actually had a social group like that, but I digress.
The best social groups for finding a good relationship are low drama, not filled with men or women who sleep around casually, and not at all based on drinking/smoking/drugs/partying.
HUS girl needs to know this and internalize this: Crushes come and go. A notch count is forever. A incurable STD is proof of that forever.
@susan
“I don’t even know if he’s done hooking up with Celia, though he told HUS reader “that’s not an issue.””
You keep throwing in new signficant facts. Does this suggest she already approached him, he was interested, and he assured her that Celia wouldn’t be an issue?
Hope, that advice is gold
@ Susan
Just checking. All though this shows that Mike C’s claim that men are able to think outside of their own perespective is mostly false.
In regards to the new info.
Run REALLY FAST HUS girl. (BTW, with your description I went from not caring to actually hoping for her. Damn I’m biased.)
New friends could work to, I like what Hope said.
WRT Tim not knowing about the boyfriend. Its not his fault. When he finds out that will show his character then and there.
To HUS girl:
RUN LIKE HELL. Association effects are huge: you end up in a shit crowd and you will end up smelling like shit. This is a new guy in a new group and suddenly he’s got new girls chasing him. He’s reinventing his frame and reinventing to be a CAD-type. He’s in a pivotal stage, but it’s her against an entire social group that may think he is the fucking MAN for having two girls fighting over him.
She has no chance of outweighing the opinions of the entire group unless her persuasive skills are God-like. You have no idea how hard it is to change a guy’s worldview, especially if he’s got male approval out the wazoo AND easy sex. She’s vulnerable to the pre-selection and her impulse to change a man. It won’t work. It will likely all end in tears.
Get. Out. Now.
@lokland
“WRT Tim not knowing about the boyfriend. Its not his fault.”
You misread. She said he doesn’t know him, not that he doesn’t know about him.
I think I’m coming around full circle on this. These people are all just too effed up to be trusted. Get new friends.
Since this is HUSRG asking for advice, and not Tim, I second Anacaona’s advice to let him run his course. If he’s in the “I’m finally getting some” mode, so it’s best for her to stay away. If it’s a short term fling phase, he’d have to realize that himself and stop being an accessory to cheating. At this moment in time, he’s not worth the risk…
HUSRG might need to look for some other, less douchey friends…
@Susan
“No, because you’ve expressed a desire for an LTR.”
And it has gotten me nowhere.
(with the exception of gal-friends thinking I’m wonderful and nice, just like Tim)
If I didn’t know any better, I’d say I should probably follow suit, as Tim has done.
Hangout with a group of cads, have casual-sex with whomever I can, and the affection of former-LJBFers will follow.
Tim has done so, and he has a nice girl wanting to have a relationship with him, no?
So a 23 year old former beta gets laid by a semi-pro and now he is disqualified as BF material? Did not take long for the “manwhore” backlash to land on a bunch of newbie PUAs. What young guy without much experience (you said he did not like the bar scene) would pass up what is being offered by Celia? Not enough here for HUSRG to disqualify the kid. Will be interesting to watch this unfold. A little spicier than Sweet Caroline and Josh.
@The Positive Goddess
Oh, I see we’ve got an accountability evader
, you can definitely use some of the advice here on HUS. I would urge you to read it while “clean”, I’m sure your computer screen is just a mess of weird colors right now.
It saddens me you lack the life experience to deduce knowledge from the situation provided here. Then again, someone who’s high all the time will always have a hard time grasping what’s going on.
Your take on the matter reminds me of a student that was in the same team project as me once. When things required a dire solution, who somehow deluded himself that he was the team leader, went on about how we needed to examine “How, why, when, who and which leprechauns” defined the problem. While he went on, some other guy solved the problem. That day, every person in the room was grateful that the problem was fixed, because it meant the “team leader” would finally shut the fuck up
@The Positive Hippie
… solution, “said person” who somehow deluded…
@seniorbeta and Coop
The problem here is that we initially assumed that, unlike his buddies, Tim was beta who wasn’t getting any but finally is. But we now learn he’s relatively new to the group, and this girl just met him and liked him immediately. He may just be working a new group after working his way through his last one.
Coop,
Tim does not have a nice girl wanting a relationship with him. He has a scared young girl in a new city attracted to him because he is screwing another girl that also has a BF.
You do not want to be Tim.
@Hope
She’s one of the girls that has taken my message to heart. I can’t claim that about all the girls :-/ I don’t think she’s down for anything casual. He would have to be in the market for an LTR. Seems unlikely.
@ Passer_By
Your right.
If thats the case Tims a frickin cad like the others.
@Senior Beta
“What young guy without much experience would pass up what is being offered by Celia?
Exactly.
Statistic say that a low-number guy will have a difficult time gaining attraction and maintaining interest of majority of women. (that majority being those with a average number, which would be higher than his)
So it’s literally in his best interest in the longer term! (meaning his chances of maintaining/attracting a spouse)
Please, tell me why he would’ve been better off remaining sexless, and labelled “wonderful and cute” by bunch of gal-friends.
Based off the advice I’ve received, Tim has done what guys would suggest, and it seems to have worked. He has two girls interested; one with relationship in mind.
FeralE, “Oh, I see we’ve got an accountability evader”
What would you like to hold me accountable for, sweetie?
“It saddens me you lack the life experience ….”
Says the person who can still remember details from his or her student days.
“While he went on, some other guy solved the problem.”
No doubt it was simple and efficient. Straightforwardness often is. Radical Honesty. No games. It cuts out the crap and solves problems.
@coop
“Please, tell me why he would’ve been better off remaining sexless, and labelled “wonderful and cute” by bunch of gal-friends.”
Based on susan’s subsequent description, and his relative newness to this group, I think we probably mischaracterized Timmeh as a low count, sexless, LBJF’d beta boy.
Just wanted to share this vid for you all.. i’m in a good happy place now
http://youtu.be/masmCmLPyxw
Inner game. Live for yourself and make yourself the best person you can be, find happiness in your whole life and not put it in the hands and sole responsibility of one person (which isn’t fair either), and good things tend to gravitate towards you when you least expect it.
Cheers folks!
@susan
Tell her Charm said, “You can do better gurrrrrl”
Lol. But seriously, its a bad idea.
Advice columns baffle me. Instead of simply explaining to the person in question what you want from them, you write to an advice goddess asking her what to do about the person. Sometimes she gives good advice like “go back and deal with it directly with the persons concerned” and more often than not she gives bad advice telling you to do something roundabout, manipulative or coy which is supposed to get the person or persons to get the hint and come around. The middle man, or woman as it were could be entirely cut out if we just learn how to be honest.
Why doesn’t HUS girl just tell Tim whatever she’s told you? I mean, how hard can it be to say, “look I’m really attracted to you and would love to date you but what you’re doing now gives me pause. are you attracted to me enough to stop doing it? if so, lets date. if not, nice knowin’ ya!”
Why is honesty so hard for grownups?
Susan, I think an LTR is not out of the question, actually. If Tim is just after sex, and HUSgirl can provide a steadier supply of it at more “faith,” since she’s not hoodwinking 3 guys at once, then Tim may well jump ship to her to get it.
But what kind of a LTR is that? Certainly not one I’d sign up for. As I said upthread, a relationship without love is like pizza without the toppings.
“Inner game. Live for yourself and make yourself the best person you can be, find happiness in your whole life and not put it in the hands and sole responsibility of one person (which isn’t fair either), and good things tend to gravitate towards you when you least expect it.”
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
+1 billion
The problem is this situation will cause more harm than good, in the long run. We have Tim who is willing to take sex from a cheating woman. No matter how beta he was before, I can’t overlook this. How does helping someone cheat make a person relationship worthy? He may be a good partner after he grows up a bit, but not right now.
The girl that has a crush on him is just as crazy. She sees all the glaring signs in front of her, yet she is willing to ignore them. That may be her downfall later, if she decides to pursue things further with him.
I see this situation only ending in tears.
Positive Goddess
Good question, actually. My husband and I are totally open and honest with each other and didn’t play these silly games. The end result was, “We’re both totally attracted to each other. Let’s be together… okay now let’s move in together… okay now let’s get married… okay now let’s make babies.”
Honesty really rocks.
Coop, men are even more sensitive to partner count damage than women. Guys with low partner counts attach more after sex. Guys with high partner counts detach. Guys with high partner counts are also more likely to cheat and get bored.
You want long-term happiness, you stay as celibate as you can until you find someone you can see forever with. And that goes for both men AND women.
Lack of sexual experience didn’t really stop me. Hindered, yeah, but didn’t stop. Won’t stop you, either.
@ Hope:
I like plain pizza… But I totally get the point you’re making and I agree. It’s not a solid foundation to build a relationship on.
Tim would be choosing HUSRG because she’s a more stable prospect for female companionship/sex on regular basis — not because he’s wild about her and genuinely wants to be with her. (There’s a big difference between wanting to be in a relationship with someone vs. wanting to be in a relationship with a specific person..)
M3, love the lyrics of that video! “its a great big world and you’ll see, it could pass you by at light speed, you’ve got one life, one life, don’t stop livin’ up”
Although we may have more than one life, this is the only one we’re cognizant of right now here in real time!!!! The Radical Honesty Movement seeks to address issues as they come up in real time. That means we don’t do things lose sleep over Tims. If we want a Tim, we tell him. If he doesn’t want us, we move on. How much easier campus life would be with a Radical Honesty Chapter on each! So much emotional baggage would be lifted and students could concentrate their focusing power on studying instead of stupid drama.
Just wanna take the oppurtunity to share this from an RH blog.
Radical Honesty in Relationships
There’s a strong tie between your work and your relationships. Asking “What most frustrates you about the world?” is not only a means of identifying opportunities to create value in your life, it’s also a compass that directs you towards the people that will help make those dreams come true.
Radical honesty in relationships–whether platonic or intimate–requires self-respect. Self-respect is a seed planted by the standards you set: How do you treat people? How do you let them treat you?
Purpose is also paramount. In geek terms, your mission is like an Uninterruptible Power Supply, a primary source of energy and the motive power behind all the moving parts of your life. The relationships worth having are those with a voltage high enough to match your own, not those that cause a power failure.
Maintaining integrity in relationships means addressing problems that come up in real-time. Emotions are not chess pieces, and love is not a game of strategy. If you sense that something might be wrong, seek to identify and resolve the issue on the spot. If you’re constantly met with responses like the Solemn Downward Stare, followed by the Evening of Awkward Silence, and the Night Without Sex, then be warned: the game you’re playing isn’t worth winning.
REREAD the first sentence of that last paragraph, “Maintaining integrity in relationships means addressing problems that come up in real-time. ”
Whew!!!! What a relief to know you can finally just be straightforward with someone.
“its a great big world and you’ll see, it could pass you by at light speed, you’ve got one life, one life, don’t stop livin’ up”
Go Get ‘Em!!!! Tiger!
@iggles, hope et al
“Tim would be choosing HUSRG because she’s a more stable prospect for female companionship/sex on regular basis — not because he’s wild about her and genuinely wants to be with her.”
Now I have to defend Tim again. You guys are making that motivation up out of whole cloth. This is twisted chick logic. By this logic, it would be even worse if Tim expressed interest in her at time when he wasn’t getting any, because, clearly in that case he is only interested in her to avoid celebacy, right?
Passer By, nope. My husband wasn’t getting any (and hadn’t gotten any in a couple of years) when I fell head over heels in love with him. He expressed interest in me not because he wanted to get some sex, but because he was interested in me. Therein lies the difference.
If Tim actually was interested in getting a relationship with Celia instead of just getting laid, that would be different. I could almost respect that even if he was complicit in her cheating. At least then he could say, “I care about her and want to be with her,” instead of “I just want to hit it.”
In this scenario, how would HUS girl know that he’s not going to give lip service to a relationship with her just so he can “hit it”? Maybe she could turn up the girl game and somehow make him care about her and actually fall in love with her, but how does a guy who’s getting his balls drained on the regular by another girl even work up the motivation to fall in love with another girl?
From wiki, sorry but I think this stuff can really help HUS girl, readers and commenters here, and well shucks, the whole world! OK I’ll be honest, im not really “sorry”. I’m happy to share this information!
Radical Honesty is a technique and self-improvement program developed by Dr. Brad Blanton.[1] The program asserts that lying is the primary source of modern human stress and that practitioners will become happier by being more honest, even about painful or taboo subjects. Blanton claims this form of honesty can help all human relationships since it “creates an intimacy not possible if you are hiding something for the sake of someone’s feelings.”[2]
The Radical Honesty technique includes having practitioners state their feelings bluntly, directly and in ways typically considered impolite.[3] For example, “I’m disgusted with you for X” where X is a statement of objective observation about the person towards whom the comment is being directed. People who practice Radical Honesty employ a collection of techniques to shift them out of acceptable norms of “white lying” for the purpose of having a more truthful relationship with themselves and others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_Honesty
“Part of what I argue about promiscuity is that it’s bad for society and our most important institutions. ”
Then it may be interesting to know the profile of the typical defender of promiscuity…the defense usually being defined as something a person does as part of “having a little ‘harmless’ fun in their youth.” Understanding or knowing that profile could go a long way in deconstructing the entire defense and thus bettering society.
@hope
“Passer By, nope. My husband wasn’t getting any (and hadn’t gotten any in a couple of years) when I fell head over heels in love with him. He expressed interest in me not because he wanted to get some sex, but because he was interested in me. Therein lies the difference.”
But Timmeh is already getting regular sex, and it seems as if Celia is trying to lock him down, so if he drops Celia for HUSHottie, she should at a minimum know that it wasn’t because he was sex starved at the time.
Passer By, and how do we know that Tim won’t take a play out of Celia’s book, hook up with HUSgirl, and keep Celia on the side? Play the two girls against each other. Competition! Drama!
It would be much better if she stayed away.
“men have become hypersensitive to female promiscuity, warily inquiring about a woman’s number before investing one ounce of emotional energy.”
.
“How does this fact create a problem for anyone?”
.
@herb
.
“Because it means a woman’s choices have consequences that might mean she can’t have everything she wants.”
.
So THAT is what all this is about. Women get all the sex they want at the snap of a finger but whine when a man—who was nowhere near the profile of those who passed her around a decade earlier—quietly walks away from her due to his justified discomfort. Well then, if a woman wants a man who finds her worthy then perhaps the woman should per-empt her own contemplated out-of-line behavior…now, before its too late. Why is this soooo hard?
And really, I still don’t think you fully grasp the point I and Iggles were trying to make. It doesn’t matter if the guy was starved or not, if he had a legion of women or if he had been celibate for years. What matters is whether or not he loves the girl.
“Passer By, and how do we know that Tim won’t take a play out of Celia’s book, hook up with HUSgirl, and keep Celia on the side? Play the two girls against each other. Competition! Drama!”
How do we know he won’t cut her up and dine on her with some fava beans and Chianti? We don’t.
I just think the whole group is messed up, but you guys are leaping to unwarranted conclusions.
HUS girl, if you’re reading this just CUT THROUGH ALL THE BULLSHIT AND TELL TIM HOW YOU FEEL. Whatever the outcome, you will feel better.
Clarity is GOD.
There, its a done deal.
Passer by, “you guys are leaping to unwarranted conclusions.”
How are the conclusions unwarranted? Guys have made worse conclusions about girls around these parts based less information than what we’ve been given.
“And really, I still don’t think you fully grasp the point I and Iggles were trying to make. It doesn’t matter if the guy was starved or not, if he had a legion of women or if he had been celibate for years. What matters is whether or not he loves the girl.”
No, you’re talking in circles a bit. The point you previously made is that he might only make the switch because it’s a more stable supply of sex. Maybe, but as a guy, i’ll say unlikely, but it would be more likely if he was currently in a dry spell. Most likely, he would make the switch because he likes her a lot (using the word “love” at this point is a little silly, no?).
I guess, maybe were I to rephrase your point, his actions with celia suggest he is totally capable of disassociating sex and true affection (or love), in which case he simply a risk for that in general. I guess I could see that, though by logic every guy who ever had a FB or FWB would be suspect. But, in my youth, I would have done that, but I wouldn’t have misled a girl by acting like I wanted a relationship when I just wanted more stable sex. He never lied to Celia, so far as we know.
@ Hope, Passer_By
I find the role reversal here absolutely hilarious.
@Hope
Steady supply of sex is not a reason to get into a relationship. I had a friend in uni make the same argument. “Why would he cheat if he is getting steady sex from me?”
Variety is greater than steadiness by many, many degrees. The fact that men don’t is a concious effort or lack of options.
Passer By, I said “If Tim is just after sex” which implies he is not looking for anything more. Just because you and other guys posting here don’t get into relationships just for sex, doesn’t mean other guys do not. I think this is a case of not all men are like that.
Bingo. Anyone who’s capable of this is not relationship material in my book. I’ve never been with a guy who has a FWB, for the record.
It seems like Tim already knows that HUS Reader Girl is interested?
I would actually encourage HUS Girl to test the waters. She should get to know Tim better before moving into romantic/physical territory, and if she decides she wants to go there she needs to make it very clear that she wants exclusivity before doing anything sexual. However, the more Susan tells us about Tim, the more he sounds like he’s actually quite a player (the whole “don’t worry about it” comment, depending on what the question was, seems like an evasion of the question and not an actual answer). So if HUS Girl really wants to pursue this (and I don’t think Tim is a lost cause), she should make herself as ‘girlfriend material’ as possible, and make it clear she’s attracted to him. Take this with a grain (or thousand) of salt from a girl in a sort of similar situation who wasn’t able to make it work recently though.
Someone really needs to tell Celia’s boyfriend that his girlfriend, who he apparently can’t wait to have join him on the opposite side of the country, is cheating on him with TWO dudes and acting like she owns them. Good god. What horrible “friends.”
Male lurker coming out of the woodwork here.
Not surprisingly, my advice to the two people here are wildly different.
For “Tim”: everything’s working, he’s getting some (albeit by abetting a cheater). That said, there’s a saying about cheaters: “If you marry a man who cheats on his wife, you’ll be married to a man who cheats on his wife.” (Ann Landers). And that holds just as much with a cheating woman. But other than that, he has it good in the short run, and there’s no real reason for him to change his strategy in the current situation.
For “HUS Girl”: this guy Tim is bad news. He’s attractive, but he’s a terrible relationship risk. Assuming that you’re looking for an exclusive LTR, you’re taking a huge risk if you pursue a guy that demonstrates his disrespect for the social conventions of monogamy through his relationship with Celia. Is he that much of a prize that you would accept his wandering ways even if he agreed to be exclusive? Agreements that he has no qualms helping others actively break?
Also, it sounds like Celia is kind of crazy?
Why does HUS girl want to get involved in this mess? Yikes. Can she imagine getting 60 phone calls in a row from Celia when this drama unfolds further?
For her own sake I hope HUS girl runs far, far away.
Is Celia super hot or something?
@ Passer_By:
It still doesn’t make him a good LTR prospect for her (the party that asked Susan for advice). At minimum it just means going for the more convenient situation to continue getting sex. IMO, HUSRG is vulnerable to being dumped once someone he’s truly into comes along.
@hope
“Why does HUS girl want to get involved in this mess? Yikes. Can she imagine getting 60 phone calls in a row from Celia when this drama unfolds further?”
That’s where I’m coming out as well. I hope for Timmeh’s sake that Celia is sufficiently hot to be above the Vicki Mendoza Diagonal on the hot-crazy scale.
@ purplesneakers:
Probably. If she was a 4 would Eric put up with 60 repeated phones calls just to continuing hooking up with some girl on the sly??
LurkerXIII, I completely agree with all you wrote. Tim’s not a good bet for LTR. That doesn’t mean he can’t be in the future, but right now – definitely not.
Sorry! What, do you think I do this for a living or something?
He got wind of her crush, and he took the opportunity to say it was mutual. I don’t think that’s true, strictly speaking – my guess is he was pleased to hear it and was eager to move it forward.
“He got wind of her crush, and he took the opportunity to say it was mutual. I don’t think that’s true, strictly speaking – my guess is he was pleased to hear it and was eager to move it forward.”
See, for all you people know, these two modern day Romeo and Juliettes could be destined to get married and raise a future President of the United States who brings about world peace or perhaps, someone who will invent a perpetual motion machine and solve the world’s energy problems. And you are all standing in the way with your judgmental attitudes. Sheesh.
But, if she does this, she should move slowly on the sexo – and I’m usually the one who would have said that if I’m not gettin’ it by date 2 or 3 it ain’t happening. Of course, she can’t do that if she was already gettin busy with some other guy in the group or had discussed recent sexcapades.
Lastly, if she does date him, I hope she has already drawn up the papers to file for a restraining order against Celia.
“Are these methods helping average guys score, or is it an avenue to breed sexual predators?”
.
Who knows. But what is known is that its freaking feminists out and its mocking promiscuous women desperately grasping onto the empowerment crutch by throwing them under the shame bus
.
http://schedule.sxsw.com/2012/events/event_IAP9536
.
@Passer By
I think so too. But honestly, this situation is so ordinary it’s boring.
“Meanwhile, another girl has developed a crush on Tim, calling him an adorable beta (yes, she reads HUS, obvs).”
Promiscuity cues FTW.
@Cooper
You won’t find me advising against it. It you have the wherewithal to make this happen, I’d go for it.
My gut feeling from everything Susan has told us is that Tim is looking to spread his player wings.
Tim is not LTR material. He’s the mistress in this situation, which means on some level, he condones the act of cheating. This is not a sign of good character. On top of that, Celia seems like a crazy girl — who knows how rancid that hole is? HUS reader stands to lose a lot by engaging with Tim because 1. if he doesn’t have regard for someone else’s relationship, it’s likely that he won’t have regard for HUS reader’s feelings the minute things get boring (which will happen at some point if they ever make it into an LTR) and 2. Celia’s spotty sexual history will directly affect HUS reader’s sexual history. Come on, she cheated on her boyfriend with TWO guys! Not one, TWO! Who knows what she’s done when she’s single?
The risks are too high. I don’t think HUS reader should go for Tim. At the very least, let this play out for longer; if Tim’s only intention is to play HUS reader, then that should reveal itself soon enough. If she refuses to give up on him, then she should absolutely not sleep with him unless and until he calls her his girlfriend in front of their friends.
And let’s just take this a bit further and say that Tim and HUS reader do end up in a relationship. What if down the line Tim starts cheating on HUS reader? Will her friends let her know what he’s up to? Or will they insist it’s none of their business and keep her in the dark?
She is best served by avoiding him. He’s Bad News.
(And fwiw I have been in a similar situation before. I had a huge crush on a guy when I was in London and later found out that he’d been banging some slut whose boyfriend was back in the States. I was still attracted to him, but his morals were clearly questionable, and that attraction faded soon enough. Just in case HUS reader thinks this is True Love or something. It’s not.)
Positive Goddess is almost certainly Plain Jane. And even if she isn’t, she’s trolling the place hard.
@Hope
This is exactly how I reacted. I think that HUS girl is in danger of being a notch, just because she’s found Tim at a time when he’s all about adding to his number. It seems unlikely that he’d happily go from “other man” to devoted boyfriend.
Yes! I told HUS girl this and she said, “No, he doesn’t like Celia, she’s gross. He doesn’t even pay attention to her.” I said, “Don’t be so sure.”
You know what? No relationship should begin with drama like this.
@Positive Goddess
I have written posts advising this. “Say What You Need to Say.” If I hadn’t done this, I wouldn’t be married now, at least not to my husband.
I think SayWhaat wrote what I meant to say, but with the “warning! warning! proceed with caution!” overtones that I struggled to get through in my post.
I’m sure HUS Girl has other friends and can meet other guys, right?
@LurkerXIII
Oh, I love it when this happens! Welcome, and thanks.
I think you’ve come closest to my own reaction to this situation. Obviously, if I’d felt certain I wouldn’t have felt the need to ask the troops, but you’ve understood the nuances the same way I did.
Eh, I saw a pic on Facebook. She’s decent, a solid 7 IMO. No idea how the guys would rank her.
Oh, Petruchio is in the house!
SW:
“Yes! I told HUS girl this and she said, “No, he doesn’t like Celia, she’s gross. He doesn’t even pay attention to her.” I said, “Don’t be so sure.”
You know what? No relationship should begin with drama like this.”
Agreed. I wonder what’s going on through HUSRG’s head right now. It seems like some kind of “don’t fuck her, fuck me!” mentality.
@SayWhaat
Thanks, I think you’re right. Also, if Tim and HUS reader had met independently, that might be different. But getting together via this social scene is not good. There’s already a ton of drama and angstyness. They’re under a microscope. Nothing about this feels right. I’m glad I steered her away. I promise to report back on any future developments…
Lokland,
I don’t agree. Obviously, this is true for some guys. Other guys want a relationship and their desire for that overpowers any ideas about seeking variety in the form of other women.
Susan,
Something a wise woman (aka my high school math teacher’s wife) once said: “You’ll know it’s the real deal when there’s no bullshit.”
She sounds a bit naive. And, tbh, ripe for the picking.
You’re right–no relationship should begin with that sort of drama. Yet, given the social scene (douche-heavy), the drama, and the interest she’s showing as a result of his sketchy social proof, they both seem a bit suspect.
HUSReadergirl needs to run for her life like the hounds of hell are on her heels!
As the lease experienced of them all, she is in way over her head; Celia is an alpha slut and Tim is an alpha cad pretending to be a beta boy to get sympathy. It is his modus operandi–be the nice guy, get sympathy while he prowls…At the best, he is a highly functioning beta who knows how to get his alpha on and play the game of attracting whatever women he can. He doesn’t care how he does it; he is quite willing to be part of Celia’s quadrilateral, and now that HUSReadergirl says she is interested, well whattaya know, he is too, by golly!
HUSReadergirl doesn’t need to make it a pentagon.
EEK!!!!!!!!!!
lmao. I had to check the name on that comment to verify it was from Saywhaat and not Abbot.
A question for the youngins here. When you use “realtionship” or “LTR” what does it mean to you? This HUS girl is in college and wanting an LTR keeps getting referenced in her case. What sort of time range are we talking about here? A year? 2 ? Is the point of it to lead to marriage? If not, why the need to lock one person down?
Feeding the troll… guilty as charged.
@The Positive Goddess: it doesn’t matter why or why not. If that’s what she wants, that’s what she wants, and she should optimize for getting what she wants. It’s neither your nor my place to judge whether her actions are correct, only to give good honest advice when advice is requested. De gustibus non est disputandum.
This just happens to be the same advice and strategy I’d give to any other man or woman: figure out what you want, and take positive action towards getting it. If those actions require making trade-offs, acknowledge the trade-off and choose a path, and own the consequences of those actions. A woman that wants casual flings today should own the effects on her future relationship fitness for the decisions made today. It doesn’t make casual flings wrong, only suboptimal for the relationship minded.
Certainly you would appreciate such candor and bold directness.
“It’s neither your nor my place to judge”
Not judging. Just curious.
Can’t we just block the troll? Set it on fire? Kill it? Something?
According to wikipedia, Scandinavians folklore maintains that trolls are frightened by lighting. I’m going to be hoping for a storm tonight..
Lol, me too. Though Im sure it will change its name and return again.
Sorry if these responses dredge up old comments. I was reading during down time at work, but….alas….I was unable to replay then.
@Megaman:
“But I guess I’m not supporting men if I’m also not still marching in this parade of indignation.”
_____________________________
Parade of indignation is exactly opposite of what lots of the guys who post here are doing. Look at Jesus and Deti and Mike C, for example. Tom (go Stillers) and Beta Guy are on a journey. They aren’t bitching – they’re showing the way. Some guys are indignant, but it’s not a permanent condition.
“”Unlike some people, I’m willing to admit when I don’t have enough knowledge to form an opinion. I don’t know how everything works, and prefer not to regurgitate stereotypes because they sound good. But if facts don’t matter, I’ve nothing to contribute.”
_____________________________
One thing you may wish to carefully consider is how utterly subjective the things discussed here are. If you see a stereotype being regurgitated, by all means, swoop down upon it like a furious ideological anti-emetic. Advocate for your ideas. Give somebody something to think about. Be a balancing force.
Susan said:
“I don’t see how this message could have been successfully delivered to boys, when as girls we were being told to stop acting feminine and subservient, and start growing a pair. How could boys not have noticed that girls were being raised to follow an entirely different script?”
______________________________
Young people believe all kinds of stupid shit.
Susan said:
“True, but most of those men have one bad experience to share, maybe two. How can they know whether their experience is indicative of the nature of that woman or the nature of all women? And what about the fact that men often select women of poor character?”
______________________________
Experience is not the same thing as perspective.
I took care of a kid awhile back who wrecked his motorcycle. He didn’t do anything wrong, really, just got cut off in traffic. I was talking to him on the way in to the hospital, trying to keep him from getting too shocky. It was his first bike, and he’d had it for less than a month. First motor vehicle accident of any kind.
Dude left a foot on a front bumper, and ended up getting some fingers amputated later. One bad experience – doesn’t make bikes bad…but offer him the keys to a Hayabusa. See if he’s eager to take it for a spin.
In my case (N=1 and all that) I came close to killing myself. More than once. I know intimately the differing tastes of Glock 26, Kimber Custom II, Mossberg, and Smith and Wesson 686. Granted, I had other bad stuff going on, but the girl thing seemed like most of it then. Even after the worst of that crap passed, my life was grey and tasteless for a long, long time.
Again – women’s “nature” didn’t change. There were just as many good girls out there, and just as many bad ones.
I’m good with women. Most of you Lovely Fallopianites seem to like me. I did better than some even before the Red Pill. But I’m not the same as I was, even now. I know how bad it can get. I still get The Fear once in awhile.
It’s an awful lot to ask of a human being, to be perfectly non-judgemental – even it it only happened once.
@Jesus Marimbah
“It’s not something I like to think about–being a guy who wants his own children one day–but I suspect that there’s a history of mental illness on both sides of my family.”
___________________________
Dude, if you haven’t, you ought to go to a decent psychologist (PhD or even an experienced Master’s level counselor) and ask questions about generational trauma and genetic predispositions to mental illness. Bonus points if you find somebody with experience in addiction.
Seriously – pay the $80 or $120 for an hour and ask some questions. Those folks study that stuff for a living. Even if you disagree with the science behind it, there’s something to be said for making a living trying to help people with mental issues. Some of those people are wicked smart.
Another good alternative would be to go volunteer in a place with a Psych Emergency Department. People who work in those things would love the help, and are usually happy to repay interested parties with knowlege (and fucked up stories).
At the very least, familiarize yourself with Cluster B personality disorders and how addiction manifests itself.
@Positive Goddess
If you come near me, I’ll stick you with so much Haldol you’ll shit your pants.
Susan said:
“She argues that Tim is just taking an opportunity that is being handed to him, and Celia’s cheating is not his responsibility.”
_____________________
If she doesn’t mind a bottom-dwelling opportunist picking the rotting flesh off the stinking corpse of a relationship, the I think she should go for it.
They could get drunk and get matching vulture tattoos.
Cute!
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