Katie Roiphe has published an article at Slate: It’s Not Just Rush: Liberals slut-shame just as much, in which she decries the pervasive slut shaming in our society:
These judgments, about women who sleep around or sleep with the wrong people or fail to settle down, these vicious or catty bursts of rage, or calm-holier-than-thou reflections on other people’s sluttiness or condescending screeds about how pathetic or sad or distasteful or lonely or sleazy it is to live so outside of conventional life, persist through all age groups and social strata, in big cities and small towns, on television news programs watched by millions, and on liberal blogs.
What can I say? I find this development encouraging. I’m never quite sure what to make of Katie Roiphe. She’s the daughter of an ardent and famous feminist, but in 1994 she burst on the scene with The Morning After: Fear, Sex and Feminism, a book that held women accountable for choices that served to put them in danger of sexual assault. From an article at the New York Times:
One of the questions used to define rape was: ‘Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs?’ The phrasing raises the issue of agency. Why aren’t college women responsible for their own intake of alcohol or drugs? A man may give her drugs, but she herself decides to take them. If we assume that women are not all helpless and naive, then they should be responsible for their choice to drink or take drugs. “If a woman’s ‘judgment is impaired’ and she has sex, it isn’t always the man’s fault; it isn’t necessarily always rape.
Obviously, this view put her squarely at odds with sex-positive feminists, infuriating Katha Pollitt and other prominent feminists of the time. One imagines she wouldn’t be welcome, or interested in attending a local Slut Walk.
In a 1997 book review a writer for the LA Times criticized Roiphe for not embracing the Sex as Empowerment Scam:
For Roiphe, who is 28, the sexual revolution of the ’60s had nothing to do with a desire to create a more erotic and more egalitarian society. Instead, Roiphe focuses on “bikinis from France, and the Pill, and nudity in movies, and honest and open marriages, and no-fault divorces” and then notes that “paradise” mysteriously failed to materialize. She is like the theatergoer who takes her seat during the second act and then loudly whispers to everyone around her that the plot makes no sense.
Mistakenly, Roiphe believes that the sexual revolution consisted simply of “having sex with as many people as you could.” She is oblivious to the fact that the sexual revolution–at least for many women–was less about mindless promiscuity than about finding newer, truer, less sexist and more ecstatic ways of being sexual. It was about the experience, not just the numbers; about creating something, not just getting lucky.
Fifteen years later, we all know that few found “newer, truer, less sexist and more ecstatic ways of being sexual.” They found ways of being sexual that were risky, superficial, awkward and unsatisfying. The sexual double standard is as prominent as ever, being biologically determined and therefore immutable. If anything, men have become hypersensitive to female promiscuity, warily inquiring about a woman’s number before investing one ounce of emotional energy.
So why is Katie Roiphe suddenly writing in defense of sluts?
In fact the trope of “sluts” is perpetuated in liberal circles as well as conservative ones, and there is a much more widespread tendency to judge women for their sex lives than we like to admit. There is a great deal of unacknowledged, uninterrogated contempt for women who are perceived as promiscuous, floating around even in right-thinking, fashionable, urban, blue-state pockets of the world.
…The slut is not a mythical creature on college campuses, a unicorn or dodo bird, vanished from the vernacular, in other words. The girls talk about being sluts or feeling like sluts or other girls being sluts, and if this seems exotic or surprising to us, we can think back to our own college lives, or to yesterday, when we heard someone expressing something very much like that over coffee about someone else for a sexual encounter, or sexual style or sexual existence they don’t approve of for one reason or another.
I can’t explain Roiphe’s mysterious mid-life conversion to sympathy for sluthood at the age of 44, but I can note that female promiscuity is not a problem “for one reason or another.” It is directly responsible for the near disappearance of fulfilling and intimate cross-sex relationships among young people in college, the mistaken and tragic sense that most college students have of themselves as sexual “losers,” the rapid rise of sexually transmitted diseases in the U.S., and the creation of a “spinster class” of women now in their 30s and 40s.
If liberals are willing to shame promiscuity, that’s a good thing, a rare example of people working effectively across the aisle. Let’s not forget the manwhores while we’re at it, OK? The sooner the casual sex culture gasps its last breath, the sooner we can begin to repair the harm to our young women and men, as well as the most important societal institutions of marriage and family.
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“I’ve heard a lot of people say that they like to “date for fun””
.
Its is actually good that they broadcast that desire so one knows who to avoid for commitment years later. Clearly its a win-win
@PB
“HA! MOM AGREES WITH ME! I WIN!!! WIN!!!!”
LOL.
Don’t get a head-rush from jumping out of your seat.
See ya didn’t need me agreeing. (I kept completely out of the deti talk)
Indeed, Abbot.
Those now indignantly stamping their feet believe they are silencing a voice who merely says what we all know: female promiscuity is bad because it lowers her MMV and makes it less likely a man will invest and commit. But lying about it in marriage is even worse, because it makes the man believe he is getting something he is not.
By attacking my credibility they hope to attack the validity of the principle, which is immutable.
They can stamp their feet, shame me, and point their accusing fingers all they want. It does not make the above any less true.
Maybe we should all say “bye for now” when we need a break. Can I do that too?
@ Susan Walsh
I know this was probably directed towards the men, but I think I have a pretty good grasp on this. I very well may incriminate myself with the TMI that is about to follow, but that has never stopped me before. Here I go.
Of the men I have had sex with, I have always received rave reviews. Although I’m not promiscuous, I love sex and feel I have a pretty good idea of what men mean when they say “dirty in bed”.
To me, it means a woman who is completely uninhibited when it comes to her body and her thoughts on sex. This does not mean that a woman has to perform a multitude of different sexual acts. It just means that she has to be beyond confident and comfortable with the acts she is okay with performing. With that being said, there are women out there who perform more acts than other women. This may be an asset to them, but it’s only a benefit if they find men who want what they offer sexually.
I think that there are men and women out there who like missionary sex in and of itself. I also think there are men and women out there who prefer the more obscure proclivities.
One thing that no one, regardless of their sexual preferences, can do without is enthusiasm. Men want women who are enthusiastic about sex. They want a woman who enjoys sex with them out of desire instead of it feeling like a chore. Also, men want a woman who is confident enough in her body and skills (whatever they may be) that she can fully let go during the act.
Don’t keep the lights out all the time. Don’t keep clothing on to hide flaws (unless wearing clothing during sex is your thing). Don’t complain about your body or how you think it may look to them. That takes away from the sex altogether.
“Dirty” sex is subjectively defined by most people. What is one man’s dirty may be seen as another man’s prudish. Find what you like doing and do it well. That effort and expertise won’t be lost on someone who appreciates the same things sexually.
On the 1-10 scale of sexual adventurousness (1 being a prude and 10 being extremely kinky), I’d say I’m an 8. There are things I like that would probably scare other people, and I get that. My wide range of proclivities doesn’t automatically make me “dirty” in bed, but it helps. What makes me dirty in bed is the fact that I’m enthusiastic and confident in whatever I do in the sack. Those two things carry far more weight, in my experiences.
TMI over.
@Charm
We need to coax Megaman back. I’m going to miss him something awful. I’d try to coax Warm Woman back too, but she said she finds that HUS triggers painful emotions, so that wouldn’t feel right.
Thanks, Hope!
By attacking my credibility they hope to attack the validity of the principle, which is immutable.
Nice straw man there. Not one person who has said anything to you about this is “pro promiscuity”. Not one. If so, point em out. Not one who has said anything to you have ever rallied against a stance AGAINST promiscuity. Again, point em out.
The thing is that a LOT of people now feel like you too are in the same boat, as a reformed cheater, and don’t understand how you look down on that behavior.
Cheating lowers your MMV also, as it was a lowered MMV woman who committed to you. Yeah you didn’t know that at the outset, but really, you having a lowered MMV yet expecting to get someone with a high MMV is just as silly as lowered value MMV formerly promiscuous women expecting a man of high MMV.
See?
Of course not. This is about deflecting and finger pointing at your wife as being the person “more wrong”.
@J
That sounds horrific! Your DH does sound wonderful, though. I’m sure it was terrible for him to see you in such pain. We’ll be thinking of you tomorrow, I hope this one is in and out.
Oh, and ladies, if you’re feeling adventurous and your man is open, try milking the prostate while giving oral sometime. I’ve only had that happen once, but damn I still remember it as one of the most intense orgasms I’ve ever had.
Malia:
For about the fifth time:
It’s not the promiscuity. IT’S THE LYING.
THE LYING.
But you’re not going to go there, because it serves your purposes to discredit me personally, rather than acknowledge the validity of the principle.
You (and apparently, not a few others) hope to shut me up and run me out of here by calling me “hypocrite”, telling me I got what was coming to me, and doing an endzone schadenfreude victory dance. You hope by doing so, you won’t have to listen to someone point out how things work in the real world and show the real world consequences of promiscuity and lying about it.
That’s OK. I see what you’re doing there.
@Abbot
I didn’t mean it should be fun. But people who’ve used the “i date for fun” label translate as “I don’t take dating seriously and will probably waste your time” or “I’ll date anyone once and don’t have any standards really”. I had a roommate who dated for “fun”, and by fun I mean if you were well hung, she’d be down to “date” you.
@Cooper
Lol. Thanks. I too think of myself as a ray of delightful sunshine.
@Sassy
That was soooo far from TMI. It was classy. Thanks for sharing. Ill keep it in mind next time.
@Susan
Yea, Megaman needs to come back. I can understand the need for a break though. I hate when people up and leave because they are upset, but I understand how the last post could have struck a chord with Warm Woman, we weren’t being nice at all. I try not to take anything said by anyone here personally, as we are all just anonymous people posting on a website.
OK, but the wrongs are not equivalent. Degree is important. We talk about this all the time when the question of infidelity comes up, for example. Is an emotional attachment as serious as having adulterous sex? Is the response to the injury mitigated if there are children?
Did Jimmy Carter cheat on Rosalynn because he had lust in his heart?
There’s a scale for wrongdoing, and that’s always been true in society, most notably in our justice system. It may not be applied fairly, but there are good reasons to distinguish among offenses.
In my opinion, Deti’s having cheated in LTRs before knowing Mrs. Deti is far less injurious than Mrs. Deti’s having been dishonest to finagle a marriage proposal.
By the way, I mentioned here recently that a young woman shared that she doesn’t know anyone – anyone – who hasn’t cheated or been cheated on in an LTR. I believe this is because so many LTRs are really just glorified booty calls, with little emotional intimacy or loyalty. There’s so much cheating out there that demanding a partner that’s never ever done it is going to mean a small pool of potential matches. I’m not saying people should compromise their values, I’m just apprising you of “market conditions.”
shouldn’t be fun*
Damn it
“Those now indignantly stamping their feet believe they are silencing a voice who merely says what we all know: female promiscuity is bad because it lowers her MMV and makes it less likely a man will invest and commit.”
Well, its only bad if a woman actually does want or thinks she would one day like to have a man invest in and commit to her. Those Foot Stompers are now running in circles attempting to plug all sort of dyke leaks. Like the one that dupes women into screwing the “wrong” or “unapproved” or “non-feminist certified” men. To whit:
“as thousands of college students get ready to party, and perhaps try out their pickup lines, one local blogger is warning women to be on the lookout for dubious techniques.”
Yep, that would be Amanda Marcotte out there directing the fuck traffic down the “women controlled market” lane.
“I felt like a lot of men are attracted to this [concept] for somewhat of the wrong reasons,” Marcotte spews.
Aint that rich?
So yeah, these fucktards are out there with their snotty male-mind-control messages accomplishing
Absolutely. Nothing.
.
http://www.kutnews.org/post/amanda-marcotte-pickup-artists-i-don’t-charlatans-and-i-definitely-don’t-sexists
@Jason
Are you saying the back door is open? I’ve read guys really, really don’t like to be surprised that way. Maybe a tentative touch, then wait for the moan?
Yeah, he’s a great guy, and this whole business has been pretty rough on him. It’s stressful enough to watch a loved one be sick, but he also has work to worry about. My folks were blue collar as were DH’s. We were brought up to be white collar, but no one ever told us that our job responsibilities wouldn’t end when we punched out. Poor DH was managing his department by phone. And after four days of unplanned for absence, he went back to a huge backlog of work. Terrible. OTOH, I expect close to 40K in medical bills when this is done. We wouldn’t have the insurance and flex spending plans or the ability to pay off the rest that we do if he had a blue collar job.
I’m not saying people should compromise their values, I’m just apprising you of “market conditions.”
Deti’s older. If Deti was the same age as the person who gave you the report, then I’d understand. But he’s not.
There’s so much cheating out there that demanding a partner that’s never ever done it is going to mean a small pool of potential matches.
I’m not pro promiscuity/casual sex, but how in the heck is your argument any different than theirs? I’d be willing to bet that the people who cheat match up pretty squarely to the people who engage in casual sex.
It’s not the promiscuity. IT’S THE LYING.
Yeah and I wrote about 3-4 posts responding to the lying. Seriously.
You (and apparently, not a few others) hope to shut me up and run me out of here
You know, debate better. All you’re doing is building straw men. IDC what you do, where you go or whether or not you post. You wanna come at me, up your game.
“I had a roommate who dated for “fun”, and by fun I mean if you were well hung, she’d be down to “date” you.”
.
Nothing wrong with that. For every women of that sort [service provider], there are thousands who are not and thus it is VERY easy to avoid them for commitment.
TIL I’m a dirty girl in bed.
Minus anal, though.
#humblebrag
Ouch J. Medical bills suck, on top of the work/life badness that comes from hospital stays. :/ I had my own bouts of it last year, so I completely sympathize.
If this is the case, I shan’t be dating anytime soon. I’ll take my chances with that smaller pool since I’m already apart of it anyway.
Susan,
Haha, I guess so. The way it happened it was a total surprise, but I thought ‘what the hell, let’s see where this goes’ and I was pleasantly surprised. I know a lot of guys have some phobia of it, but its all good by me. That’s why I had to throw in the caveat ‘if your man is open to it’ or so.
The only thing I would draw the line at is serious pain, as I’m definitely not into that, either giving or receiving.
@Malia
Hmmm, that’s a good point. You might be right about that. Not in deti’s time, necessarily, but today I think that’s probably true.
Check out the confidence on Say Whaat! Girl, you’ve been busy in a few short weeks. It just proves what I’ve often said, though – all you need to be good at sex is one long weekend with someone you really dig. Bathroom and food breaks allowed.
I refuse to participate in a relationship.with anuone that has ever cheated in an LTR. Period. There is no.context that will change my decisiin on it
Munsen,
Im not sure James Taylor would have approved of such heavy handed tactics by King.
I think we all know that around here, “Straw man” means “argument I disagree with”.
Malia, this is one long ad hominem argument you’re making. I rail against promiscuity because I know first hand what it does to people. I rail against dishonesty because i’ve been on the perpetrating end and the receiving end. I know first hand what that does to people as well.
Cheating might lower your MMV, just as promiscuity does. But probably not as much as promiscuity does. You think you’re trying to make the point that premarital cheating on LTRs and then coming clean about it is every bit as bad as lying about one’s promiscuous past. But that’s not the point you’re making. The point you’re making is that MY premarital cheating in LTRs is just as bad as mrs. D’s promiscuity and not coming clean about it IN MARRIAGE. And you make that point because it makes you feel better to call them equivalent when they are not. And you’re making it about me because you don’t like the message and think you can discredit it by shooting the messenger.
And you’re not really making it about principles. Here’s how I know that:
Malia said:
“The thing is that a LOT of people now feel like you too are in the same boat, as a reformed cheater, and don’t understand how you look down on that behavior.”
That’s fine if you want to argue that way. But you’re employing the fallacy of ad hominem: discrediting the message by attacking the personal credibility of the messenger. You don’t see that that’s what you’re doing, but it is.
You base your position on LTRs being just like marriage, apparently. They’re not. In an LTR you don’t stand up and make promises. In an LTR you don’t sign papers legally binding yourselves to each other based on representations you make to each other. In an LTR you aren’t legally bound to support and care for the other. In an LTR you don’t make a contract based on representations made to each other. You want to gloss over that, making them equivalent, but they’re not. Anyone who wants to walk away from an LTR can do so anytime they want, for any reason at all, whether it’s a three month LTR or a 30 year LTR.
All of you want to say I’m just as bad as mrs. deti is, because it serves your purposes to say “woman bad, but man just as bad”. That’s fine if you want to believe that. But you have to consider the character of an LTR and marriage, and what men do and give when they enter into a marriage. It’s why a woman has to be of “sterling character”, as SW said in her marriage post back in January. In an LTR both participants can be of, ahem, less than sterling character, because both can walk anytime they want, for any reason, or no reason at all.
I think we all know that around here, “Straw man” means “argument I disagree with”.
Same can be said for “ad hominem”
Cheating might lower your MMV, just as promiscuity does. But probably not as much as promiscuity does.
This is subjective, but as a person who has cheated, you’re not completely objective here.
The point you’re making is that MY premarital cheating in LTRs is just as bad as mrs. D’s promiscuity and not coming clean about it IN MARRIAGE
Uh no. I have clearly stated my point time and time again. My point is that you are both liars, who else would accept a liar but another liar.
And you’re making it about me because you don’t like the message and think you can discredit it by shooting the messenger.
I don’t care about the message. I have no dog in this fight. You can go on and on, but I’ve articulated my argument clearly. You don’t like that you’ve made a revelation about yourself that brings your character into question, so you’re trying to defend your character by differentiating between what you did and what she did. IDC, you both were wrong. You can argue about who is more wrong, but discussing degrees of bad/wrong is silly. And it lacks credibility when you’re doing it, because your motivations are biased.
Malia:
“Deti was a liar/deceitful (however you want to phrase it) and his behavior was accepted by someone who is/was also a liar/deceitful.”
What you conveniently omit is that she knew I had lied/cheated.
I did not know she had lied.
That’s the difference. But you ignore it for the reasons already stated: because you believe cheating in an LTR and then fessing up to it is every bit as bad as lying to your husband about a promiscuous past. You need for that to be true because it supports whatever worldview you hold of LTRs, or marriage, or men, or me.
Deti,
That’s an immature retort. Like I said up your game. Make a credible and respectable argument.
“You don’t like that you’ve made a revelation about yourself that brings your character into question, so you’re trying to defend your character by differentiating between what you did and what she did. IDC, you both were wrong. You can argue about who is more wrong, but discussing degrees of bad/wrong is silly.”
And that’s why this is all ad hominem. Point proven. SayWhaat started this by saying in effect, I got what I deserved. Ted D and Jesus M joined the chorus with “deti has questionable character!”
That’s fine. Your arguments are what they are. They don’t change the truth of the positions I hold.
Here, here!
Apparently thats a very small pool.
@Charm
Everytime someone mentioned “that’s a very small pool” I have a tendency to think implies we must wait things out until the crowd leave until we’re the only one left.
There must be a way other than “out waiting” everyone else, right?
@Cooper
I don’t know man. I thinking of just taking the go-your-own-way strategy for a while. Likes do attract likes and if I’m down for waiting it out and refusing to settle, I’d imagine someone I’d be into would be doing the same. I simply refuse to wade through all the bullshit that other people create. The current SMP sucks, and I don’t want to be apart of it. Hopefully I stumble upon something. Isn’t there a saying “Good things come to those who wait?”. I’ll wait.
Dirty in bed? Lots of things. Now THIS will be TMI:
-I like to get blowjobs and I like dirty endings to them (I’ll let you fill in the blanks).
-All weekend sex marathons are awesome. Especially since I don’t like to wear pants
-I LOVE morning sex. When the girl stays over…I don’t think I’ve showed up to work on time even once. Don’t tell my boss. Wait, tell her, she might be interested then!
-Never tried anal. Open to the possibility. Seems like it would suck because the anus is muscle-packed. Possibly cool given the circumstances
-Different positions are overrated. Probably because I can’t make them work. It took long enough to get missionary to work.
-I like to take pictures and video
-Strip-teases and lapdances are an undervalued art
-Kissing with lots of tongue. Don’t worry I consider this dirty. But I do!
-Location location location…while driving…in the parking lot…a movie theater…making out at the wedding was GREAT until the staff found us…
-Aggression in girls. If I am initiating all the time, I feel like a creep. Enthusiasm is great, too.
-A quicky once in a while. ONCE IN A WHILE.
-Related to that, make it last as long as you can. Any sex session less than an hour generally feels like a missed opportunity.
-The chance to get caught is really hot
-Please stare into my eyes. They are so pretty.
-I know some of us aren’t well-endowed, but it’s nice if you say otherwise
-Dirty talk
-Sex while you are still wearing your dress
On the milking the prostate thing: Goddam, be careful when you do that, and make sure you freakin lubricate first. I’ve probably got as much as the M part as the S part, but girls seem a bit hesitant in being dominant.
In exchange: I’m told I am really good at finding g-spots, and apparently my oral has gotten a lot better. Probably because I love giving oral. I swear I’ve gotten used to female ejaculation now, too, though it was a little scary at first.
God I’ve gone far from not knowing how to unhook a bra. Just goes to show what a little dedication can do for you….
By the way, I grew up on Disney movies as well as porn: cuddling for a minimum of 90 minutes afterwards is pretty much mandatory unless I am in a rush to get to work because having sex with you already took two hours.
Damn, deti. Chill.
I never said you cheating on girls back in the day was the same as your wife lying to you. I’ve told you like a million times that I respect you for handling that with the level head that you have.
I *do* think that you cheating on girls is the same as your wife sleeping around though.
I don’t think you’ve done anything wrong in your marriage at all. I *do* think that your rantings about promiscuity are a bit hypocritical.
“There must be a way other than “out waiting” everyone else, right?”
.
Right. Merely scoot over from the pool being defended or promoted to the multitude of other available pools.
Charm – “Apparently thats a very small pool.”
I’ve managed to find four so far, although the first left as a cheater.
Thanks for fixing my typos LOL. I was waiting for a haircut typing on my phone when they called my name, so I hurried on that tiny touchscreen. :-p
The thing that’s irking me is that on the one hand people want to harp on Emileigh for her past promiscuity and point out how much it lowers her MMV and then on the other they want to chalk up youthful infidelity as a part of human nature.
I don’t support either, mind you. But I don’t understand why in one case we can leave the past behind an in the other we cannot.
@JM
I thought the same thing. Then I saw this.
Then I was a bit confused. Men hold the key to commitment so cheating shows you wouldn’t uphold said commitment, so why then would a woman invest in you long term? Isn’t this the same as a guy not wanting to invest in a promiscuous woman? I don’t get how promiscuity is worse.
@Ted
Im glad you found 4. I only need 1. See Cooper, there is hope after all.
And I figured you were on some type of hand held device. I though no way in hell you’d mess up 2 words without bothers to correct them before the spelling police got to you.
Bothering*
Damn, I tried to fix it before it went through. No cigar.
@ A Definite Beta Guy
If that is your list of “dirty” sex/things, I’m glad I haven’t gone into specifics of what I like. My list is about 4 times worse than that, no joke.
Like I said earlier, some of the things I like to do would scare some people. I figured it would be best if I didn’t do a full run down.
Heaven help my next boyfriend.
Youthful infidelity and promiscuity reminds me of a story my college professor once told me.
You know you are mature when you want to trip acid and drive around town knocking over mailboxes with a baseball bat, but the little voice in the back of your head says no.
Almost everyone nodded.
Definite Beta Guy couldn’t help himself saying “I NEVER thought that was a good idea.”
Apparently my youthful indiscretion was thinking the majority of my peers were only mildly sadistic and care-free, when in fact they were just functioning dumbasses with no sense of morality at all.
This was the major issue for me.
That, and the fact that in light of what deti’s experiences pumping and dumping and cheating and being cheated on… I don’t see how he can claim to have gone into his marriage believing that women were sugar and spice and everything nice.
@Sassy
I want to know whats on this list.
Seriously. I don’t care how shocked you think I’ll be. I wanna know so badly.
Sassy, I don’t see the problem in sharing. Who’s going to shame us? What the hell is even the point in feeling shame? My body can experience enjoyable thing, I’d like to enjoy them. I’d just like to enjoy them with a girl I care about.
The only thing that seems really off the table right now to me is literally eating crap. And probably nothing involving other people. But that’s because my major redpill experience was a oneitis ignoring me and having a threesome with her neighbors and then this current fiasco…gah. I don’t like the idea of inviting other people in right now.
“the little voice in the back of your head says no”
.
HUS is a little voice that [in lieu of good parenting] is beginning to hold off the could-be promiscuous and absolutely driving the likes of Amanda Marcotte and Jaclyn Friedman batshit crazy
The same could probably be said about casual hook ups. If a guy eliminates every girl who’s ever given head casually, his pool of potential matches grows smaller.
IMO, cheating is worse than casual sex/promiscuity as far as red flags go. Part of the reason promiscuity is even a red flag is because we question the person’s ability to remain monogamous.
@ Charm
Maybe I will share. I don’t know. I just know that some of the things are a bit strange to most people.
@ A Definite Beta Guy
I wouldn’t be able to eat poop either. Coprophilia isn’t my thing.
Abbott, I do not need HUS or the game-sphere to tell me not to hook-up with too many women. I need the game-sphere to tell me I can’t idealize women.
But that’s okay, I never REALLY idealized men OR women.
I just thought that humans were mostly capable of not being mercilessly evil, and could at least fess up to their errors and apologize and understand.
“Part of the reason promiscuity is even a red flag…”
.
Yes, it seems that its a red flag matter for commitment-minded men for numerous reasons. Humorously, there are actually people who claim that appointing a red flag is slut shaming.
@Charm
“‘Good things come to those who wait?’”
I completely agree with you – that likes attract each other.
So, by withdrawing from a shitty SMP that we “don’t want to be apart of”, we can only hope we’ll attract someone with a similar view.
This is great, and I hope it works.
Although when I think of the SMP as competetive, I think that ‘those who wait’ will be left choosing between every elses left overs.
Isn’t there a saying “first come, first served?”
I don’t know, really. Is there any data that suggest marrying late, or finding a partner later in life, actually has its pay-off? (in terms of relationship risk, or success likiness)
@Sassy
It can’t be that bad.
.
.
.
.
Unless its something like sky diving anal. That would qualify as too kinky for my taste.
Ah, how I long for some bygone day in which such things could be safely assumed…. or not even imagined by 2 young lovers.
How’ve you been, Abbot?
People are saying you lied to other people you were in relationships with and then you got lied to by someone you were in a relationship with. That’s the equivalence.
This is a moronic false equivalence and it’s not a coincidence that most of the clueless wonders attempting to claim that cheating on a boyfriend or girlfriend is the equivalent of lying to your husband or wife are younger and unmarried people. It’s like listening to childless people talk about how their pets are really their children or children who can’t understand how sex could possibly be better than chocolate.
First, about one-third of all people cheat on their serious boyfriends and girlfriends. It’s hardly unusual. Second, LTR are not tangible commitments. No one is actually committing anything material to the relationship and there is no legal contract established between the parties nor does the state pay any attention to it. Third, Deti’s wife’s lies prevented Deti from making an informed decision about one of the most important decisions anyone can make.
Even if we accept that an LTR is a form of contract, Deti only breached those contracts. His wife fraudulently induced him to enter a contract. If you know anything about business or the law, you will know the latter is a much more serious matter, in fact, it can even be a crime. Breaching a contract, on the other hand, is only ever a civil affair.
On the other hand, Deti appears to be somewhat naive here, as I have repeatedly asserted that all sexually experienced women lie about their number of historical lovers. They may eventually come clean, especially when caught out, but their initial instinct is to lie. Susan has even chronicled some of the more amusing excuses to not count past sexual partners. I wouldn’t place much confidence in any number reported over 1 or 2.
in central america.
VD,
True. I can see the difference.
I’d be willing to bet that deti’s wife lied about her experiences long before marriage was on the table. That doesn’t absolve her of anything in the least. However, it might explain why she took so long to come forward about it. Though I’m hesitant to try to see her POV since the way the truth came out was so vicious it was like throwing acid in deti’s face.
FWIW, my heart goes out to deti and I think he’s handled the past year admirably. Despite the fact that he’s clearly still in the midst of working it all out.
@sassy
“I wouldn’t be able to eat poop either. Coprophilia isn’t my thing.”
Well, we may have finally found something upon which everyone on HUS can agree. And, if anyone disagrees, I’m not sure they’ll be raising their hand.
I have clearly stated my point time and time again. My point is that you are both liars, who else would accept a liar but another liar.
And your point is still stupid. Every single person in the world is a liar. You are a liar. I am a liar. Deti is a liar. There is not a single person in the world who has always told the truth. But Deti’s wife told a lie that is the basis of a fraudulent marriage contract; if marriage contracts were governed by actual contract law rather the family court pretense of it, the marriage would be automatically considered invalid on that basis.
If I agree to buy a new Ferrari from you, I give you the money, and you subsequently deliver a used Ford, that is criminal fraud. That’s much more serious matter than if I tell you I will ride with you to the store, but I end up riding with someone else instead.
@Cooper
Well first off, I don’t think I’ll marry “later” than anyone else. I think of it as marrying “smarter”. I just don’t want to pick someone and rush into something because “everyone else is doing it”. I try not to compare myself to others because how I see happiness is differently then how they see it. Trying to use their blueprint and apply it to myself, to me, is the quickest way to unhappiness.
Secondly, my natural demeanor and personality is something that has received alot of criticism throughout my life. I can’t tell how often Im told to “act like everyone else”. I tried, but it wasn’t me so I followed my own approach and I’ve some way some how found like minded people. When hear all the stereotypes about how all female friends are, I can’t relate because the women I attract for friends simply aren’t like that.
Lastly, I’ve found that if I follow my own path and do what works for *me* then it will all be okay. Sometimes Im worried that the shit won’t work out, but Im blindly confident in myself and it works it self out in the end. It always has. Instead of worrying about my lack of a relationship, I can spend time improving myself and enjoying my life and that in and or itself should be enough to attract someone.
Im only 22 now. I got time to try some different strategies out.
@ Charm
Sadly no, the list does not include sky diving anal. I have a big fear of heights.
I’ll go ahead and state a few things on the list. I’d rather not get into the full thing. I don’t feel comfortable doing so.
- I’m into anal sex.
- I enjoy choking and being choked during sex.
- I love biting, scratching, spanking, and hair pulling during sex (giving and receiving).
That is just the tip of the iceberg.
@vd
It’s not the same as a used car vs new car because there is a clear definition of what constitues a new car. Suitability for marriage is subjective. A better argument would be prior damage to a vehicle not new vs used.
He could go into court and argue the fraudulent basis of the marital contract and the degree to which it would be agreeable would depend upon. The judge because it’s SUBJECTIVE. You can go on and on but it’s still an opinion.
@PasserBy
If anyone here does in fact eat shit….and enjoys doing so…I HIGHLY doubt they’d admit to it.
Though, I’d like to point out that Sassy say she’d never eat crap…so does that mean golden showers are still on the table?
Just wondering.
Sassy, any tips on the anal or the choking?
Definite Beta,
I’ve never done either, but I’d say if you’re going to try choking, talk it out first. If you just go and grab someone’s throat, they’re likely to break a lamp over your head thinking you’re a serial killer. That would be my first thought if I suddenly found myself being choked.
@Sassy
See I’ve never had a connection deep enough with someone to do any of that. I wouldn’t be opposed to any of it though under the right circumstances. My last BF was pretty uptight and wasn’t willing to try anything new. His apprehension made me uncomfortable. That really contributed to the relationship burning out.
Jason –
Did this girl watch porn before she ever actually had sex?
So here’s my question for the more experienced people:
What constitutes “normal” sex? Not that I am too concerned about shame myself, but I would rather not shock anyone unknowingly. Especially since I just found out today that some of my buddies do not watch porn, and I thought watching porn with your SO was a “normal” activity…
I am already familiar with some of the stats Re: Anal and Oral sex, but that leaves much to the imagination.
I can say after reading Sassy’s post that my opinion of what is “dirty” in bed is tame and irrelevant. I feel like I’ve broadened my horizons a bit in the last couple years, but I haven’t choked anyone so…
I have heard that it provides one hell of a climax, but I’ll just have to take that on faith.
The only way one can accept Malia’s claim is to proceed from the ridiculous false premise that an LTR is of exactly the same character as marriage; has all the attributes of marriage; and receives the same governmental, legal and financial treatment as marriage. It does not and it is not.
Ask anyone whose 6 month, 4 year, 10 year, 30 year LTR was over in 10 seconds because one participant says “I don’t want to be with you/date you/live with you anymore”. Just like that, it’s over. No lawyers, no agreements, no property division. Not so with marriage.
@ A Definite Beta Guy
For anal:
1. Ask a woman if she is comfortable with it before attempting it………ever. That is not the kind of surprise most women would welcome.
2. Wear a condom. It’s safer and not as messy that way.
3. Lube is your friend.
4. Make sure the woman is relaxed. It will be easier for both of you that way.
5. Go slowly while you both get accommodated.
6. If you are on the larger side, go very slowly.
7. The easiest positions for it are doggie style and cowgirl.
8. Have fun
For choking:
1. Once again, ask a woman if she is comfortable with it.
2. Come up with a safe word or gesture. If performed, both of you will know to stop the choking for whatever reason.
3. Start slowly and work your way up. Start by placing one or both of your hands around her neck. Slowly increase pressure until you find a sweet spot for both of you. Some people like more pressure than others.
For me, I love riding a man cowgirl style while wrapping one of my hands around his neck. It’s such a sensual buildup. Increasing pressure around his neck while the intensity or speed of the ride rises. I like being in control of it. I like watching a man beneath me struggle to catch a breath while I please him and myself. If I’m being choked, I like it pretty rough.
Now that is indeed TMI.
Take out biting and we’re on the same page. Choking is really really hot to me.
The only way one can accept Malia’s claim is to proceed from the ridiculous false premise that an LTR is of exactly the same character as marriage; has all the attributes of marriage; and receives the same governmental, legal and financial treatment as marriage. It does not and it is not.
There you go again w those straw men. BTW you’re not strengthening your argument with this BS. Nice try though.
I must have really gotten to you if you continually feel the need to make up positions to make me out to be “wrong”.
Deti – but that is only looking at the legal status of the relationship, which is completely irrelevant when we are talking about character. I don’t care that legally my LTR mate can’t get alimony, I still treat my current relationship as if it was a marriage from a moral and spiritual standpoint. I have always treated LTRs as such, and since cheating and lying are moral constructs, I don’t see how legality comes into it at all.
So I’m with Malia in that LTRs are morally and spiritually equivalent to marriage, regardless of the legal status. You seem to be saying the cheating in a marriage is worse than cheating in an LTR. To me they are morally equivalent, although the legal ramifications for the latter are certainly worse.
JM,
I wouldn’t actually talk it out first, it could ruin the ‘spontaneity’ of it. But, I would say start light, and gradually see how far you can take it, without pushing a boundary. Every single girl I’ve done this with has enjoyed the ‘dominant’ aspect of it and really got off on it.
I wouldn’t mind it being done to me either, but I’m a big guy, and most, if not all, girls I’ve been with probably couldn’t effectively do it.
Nice try Malia.
Again, “straw man” is just lazy shorthand for “argument I disagree with and can’t respond to”.
“I must have really gotten to you” = appeal to emotion, ad hominem.
Thanks for playing.
Purple,
I can’t be sure, but I would think not. This was in the last year, and she was 18 and relatively inexperienced. I think I was the second guy she had intercourse with, but I’m sure there were a few more when it came to oral.
I think the main thing that I came to find out is that she had serious daddy and abandonment issues that manifested in her need to please an ‘older’ male (I’m only 24). She was definitely a stage 5 clinger, batshit crazy type and in the end the sex wasn’t worth it. Like one time at work she texted me and I left my phone without a response for like 3 hours. When I came back to it I had 20 something text messages where she was freaking out about how I’m not answering, and this was within one month of knowing each other. Mental instability at its finest.
Although when I think of the SMP as competetive, I think that ‘those who wait’ will be left choosing between every elses left overs.
Charms, I’m afraid Cooper might have a point with this, speaking from experience (of being only a couple years older than you, but still). I can definitely tell you are an xNTJ and I really respect your principles. I hope you never lose sight of that or yourself. However, I hope that what I say can offer a little perspective from someone who’s a little farther down the line of the same romantic goals.
Something weird happens to men after they get out of college, around 23 or so. I strongly believe that this is the time when men are strongly filtered into either beta shut-ins, players, or are taken up by women their age, probably because college life no longer offers the effortless social circles that would fall into their laps, and our current social climate doesn’t reward them for high status jobs like it used to. It’s difficult to get young adult men to budge from whatever their “calling” is after this point unless you become his angel of light. Unless you’re okay dating 10+ years older, the pool of quality, serious-LTR/marriageable guys is drained out faster than a…bathtub? Well, you get the point, the good ones are taken off the shelves fast.
More disturbingly, this is where a lot of guys start to get bitter and out of practice with women, out of surprise that wonderful, well-rounded girls aren’t just falling into their laps. Worse are the ones that come out of LTR/early marriages at this age because the ex realizes she’s still hot and might do better. You might not want the scraps that some other woman has chewed up and spit out. It’s like getting an abused dog. You might think you’re doing a grand service by salvaging something discarded and probably at a cheaper price too, but then you wake up and the damn thing has torn up all your shoes.
I’m just saying that for women at least, it’s really NOT a good thing to wait around. Literally every decent guy I know has a serious, high-quality girlfriend now. Hell, even some of the young betas managed to snatch up 7s and 8s. The rest are players who either cheat or have month-long flings, or are utter losers with no ambition/hobbies/personality. Why not go on OkCupid (you can say you’re looking for “friends” at first until you find someone you actually like and to weed out the hornballs)? My local dating scene is rife with intellectual betas that love to hike at least. Just some thoughts.
@Jesus
Personally, I have more sympathy for the promiscuous. They’re not really hurting anyone but themselves. (Leaving aside the great impact on society for the moment) Cheating is extremely destructive. It destroys the cheater too, even if they don’t know or admit it. It’s a terrible violation of the golden rule, which is probably the most important guideline ever set down for humanity, and the basis for many of the great religions.
In terms of what each says about future relationship fitness, it’s hard to say. I think it would be very important for me to know that the individual had been introspective about their behavior, and made a decision to change. For example, finding out from a third party that one’s SO had cheated in a prior relationship: very bad. Finding out in an honest admission from the SO, because they thought you deserved to know: much less bad.
Leaving behind bad behavior should only occur when there has been true remorse, repentance, and an attempt to make it right with an injured party. With promiscuity, the injured party is most likely to be the current SO, which makes it more difficult to get past, IMO.
Sassy,
Have you ever had an orgasm directly from anal? I’ve heard that it was possible for some women but never seen it firsthand. If so, how was it different than normal?
I saw a definition of an LTR that is relevant here. All it says is:
“I like fucking you and I am not fucking anyone else right now.”
That’s really what it boils down to. You may feel more than that, and your LTR may lead to the only real commitment, which is marriage. But for all intents and purposes, LTRs are sexual exclusivity.
@Trish
You’ve made some really valid points. You’re probably correct in your assessment, but if Im being really honest, I know I won’t be ready to settle down before 25 or 26. Relationships require compromises, sacrifices, strong commitment and all that good stuff, but Im not really ready to do that at 22. Right now, I want to be able to travel and live abroad without anything or anyone holding me back. Sowin’ some oats and all that jazz (no, I don’t mean sleeping around, lol). It seems that picking a guy now just to make sure I have one for later without really committing to the relationship is very selfish on my part. I won’t do it. I recognize the risk of having a harder time later. So be it. I can’t have my cake and eat it too.
@ Jason
No, I haven’t experienced one solely from anal, but I have had them when I was stimulated simultaneously in different places.
See, I really love biting. It’s extremely erotic, in my opinion. I’ve left teeth marks and bruises on men from biting them. It was actually pretty common that my ex and I looked like we had been in a war after having sex. I’m still sort of surprised that he handled all the bruises I gave him.
Thats how people really see it? Oh NOW Im bitter.
Charm – like I said, I feel very out of touch.
Say what you all want, I am giving and getting far more from my current relationship than exclusive sex, although that is certainly part of the deal. Just because none of you will make a commitment without a legal document doesn’t mean everyone wants or requires a legal stamp to consider it a real relationship.
These days, women with economic options don’t do that. They say to themselves, “I’m 50 (or 60 or whatever); one day I’ll be too sick or old to enjoy life. I might as well grab for one last hurrah.” And they leave the home.
In the past, people just checked out emotionally. Bored hubby had a fling with a younger women or bought a sports car. Bored wife counted the moments to widowhood. (My dads’ widowed sisters were the happiest old bats I can remember from my youth.) I really don’t think people were happier in their marriages; they were just more willing to tough things out because they had fewer options.
Now that is one hell of a ringing endorsement/testimonial for marriage and a man making a lifelong commitment to one woman.
@Deti
Again, “straw man” is just lazy shorthand for “argument I disagree with and can’t respond to”.
I’m not going to defend a position I have not taken. If you think I have taken that position, QUOTE IT.
Lol this evening is just full of love and happiness…
Jason-
Just wondering b/c stuff like deep throating and anal seem very porn-influenced. Most women I talk to have some variant of a fantasy of being sexually submissive (and I think that’s very natural), but not quite to that porn star extent. But even if she never watched it herself, porn is very mainstream so no doubt she’s been influenced by that mainstreaming somehow.
So Anacaona, how’s your pregnancy going? Did you have another appointment yet?
Oh going well. Picky with the food, lazy and tired but aside from that everything going well, Thanks for asking.
@J
I’m so sad you are going through so much. Hope it will be okay the next one.
I wanted to comment on your 50′s people were not happy just because they stayed married. I think there has been studies that show that the brief moment of happiness after leaving a “boring, dead end” marriage lasts very little and that people that survived the “boring stage” actually rediscovered joy on staying with their partners. Divorced people might like to say the are happiest and the divorce was for the best but aside from extreme cases like cheating and abuse there is little evidence that they are not just lying to save face, YMMV.
Is it “human” to cheat? To lie? To steal? On some level I’d say yes. After all, these concepts are purely human, as the animal kingdom wouldn’t know what cheating, lying, or stealing is.
I hate that every time someone brings “is human nature” is to justify bad things is also human nature to climb mount Everest, to find the cure to many diseases, to risk your life to save others, to give charity and volunteer, to resist temptation…Empty argument I don’t think anyone that who actually pays attention to humanity as a whole can honestly say all we do is bad and dirty and the good things are just “luck”, is usually come from a place of “I did this bad thing but I don’t want to think of myself as bad”, YMMV.
Sassy, Jason and other sexual experts. Can you open a thread in the forum? Call me prude but I really don’t like to know too many sexual details of anyone I sort of know I feel voyeuristic or something like it. I don’t even read racy romances. I read pink romances and erotica/porn separately mostly because with erotica/porn I don’t know anything about the participants just that they are going to get dirty, they are just actors of the sex acts no connection with them, while with my pink romances I think of all the characters as friends and I don’t want to know how my friends get off thank very much, YMMV.
Wow, I feel like a total prude for not liking most of the stuff mentioned. My husband and I are rather vanilla in our tastes, but that’s the way we like it.
purplesneakers “Most women I talk to have some variant of a fantasy of being sexually submissive (and I think that’s very natural), but not quite to that porn star extent.” Yeah this sounds right to me. I ain’t a porn star. I’m the wife!
@Ted
Im kind of glad I don’t date a lot, shit. It seems so worthless. Finding a like minded person is a non-negotiable at this point. I simply can’t be with someone who think sex is something can be done casually, cheating is something that is “human nature”, LTR are just a means to get exclusive sex. For all that, I’d rather be forever alone. If Im getting something less than Im bringing, then raising cats sounds like a better strategy.
@Charm
Don’t worry too much about it. To contradict what Trish said some other special cases are also likely to wait it out. I mean I was a virgin at 27 I’m sure that would had sent me as “trouble” by many men. My husband was over 30 and still single when I meet him really past the college years and he is fantastic a hidden treasure only I got to discover. Is true that there are many smart people snagging out the good ones really fast but sometimes other people have left overs that are wonderful, some people are just too stupid or too busy to notice they are leaving behind a good man or woman, specially in this “fuck me in date 3 or make me tingle at first sight” times. Don’t think that system is so brutal that a lot of good people are falling down the cracks?
“I’m not going to defend a position I have not taken. If you think I have taken that position, QUOTE IT.”
Your wish is my command.
“But marriage is different”, yeah I get that. Some people value marriage honesty more than your wife. Some people value LTR honesty more than you.”
This makes clear you’re proceeding from the premise that an LTR is tantamount to marriage.
Even if you hadn’t said that explicitly, the premise is implied in your argument. Otherwise, your claim that cheating in an LTR is just like lying in a marriage and my wife and I are both equally culpable makes no sense.
Game. Set. Match.
Sue,
Exactly. This is my point. It’s hypocritical to decry someone with a promiscuous past when one has a history of infidelity.
Jason,
I’ll pass.
Good choice.
@ Anacaona
No worries. I’ll stop with the sex talk.
@ Hope
You can be both, if you want to. Being sexually adventurous isn’t a crime.
@Anacaona
That’s my fault, I specifically invited readers to state what they mean by dirty sex. I asked b/c I have heard women talk about this. Guys say psycho chicks are amazing in the sack, and sane women want to know what that means! I thought it might help women in their relationships. I apologize.
This was true for my parents. They never were bored, because there was too much dysfunction and depression, but they weathered terrible years and wound up acting like a couple of lovebirds. When I talk about my childhood, my husband believes me, of course, but struggles to reconcile that with his own knowledge of my parents’ close and happy marriage.
I’m with those who say marriage is for keeps, and should only be dissolved for very good reasons. Self-actualization is not one of those reasons.
No worries. I’ll stop with the sex talk.
I don’t want to ruin the “educational program” so don’t stop it, just make a forum and the interested will follow.
Sassy, oh we are plenty adventurous. I’m really enthusiastic and giving in bed, and we aren’t missionary all the time. Plus we do it a lot, even through all the pregnancy/stillbirth/miscarriage issues. But there are also places we don’t go.
Also, he is very spiritually and energetically attuned, so when he is really fired up, things are out-of-this-world amazing without needing anything “kinky.” It’s like he emanates love from his entire being and sends it to my whole being, body/heart/soul. Porn doesn’t even begin to compare. The man knows how to make LOVE.
Yea, I think in the next few years the number of people slipping through the crack will grow. It annoys me how a handful of people are ruining it for everyone else. Asshole. I hope I find that hidden treasure like you did.
Oh I just found out you were pregnant. Good luck with the baby!
This makes clear you’re proceeding from the premise that an LTR is tantamount to marriage.
No it doesn’t. You’ve made an inference.
I’m with those who say marriage is for keeps, and should only be dissolved for very good reasons. Self-actualization is not one of those reasons.
Yeah coming from four generations of never divorced people I don’t expect fairytale kind of happiness, I had seen all sorts of stages in marriage life including crisis and boringness but I don’t see it as a reason to quit and things eventually move on and evolve…. together.
@Charm
Thanks!
@Jesus
Yes, I get where you’re going with this. There are two separate issues here. Deti vs. Mrs. Deti. I side with Deti. You are addressing Deti vs. Emileigh. I agree, I have little tolerance for Deti’s judgment here.
@Trish
What I’ve noticed with my bf’s friends (they’re all beta STEM types) is that many of them are doing a sort of variation of MGTOW, except it’s more like Men-Doing-Their-Own-Thing. These guys are harder to find since they mostly spend their time hanging out with friends/pursuing hobbies/etc., rather than dealing with the SMP. (And considering what the dating market is like these days, I don’t blame them!)
Some of them can literally go for years without dating anybody, but if the right girl happens to come along, then they tend to be pretty commitment-oriented. They’re great guys, but it can be kind of hard to track them down. YMMV of course.
It’s hypocritical to decry someone with a promiscuous past when one has a history of infidelity.
I agree, I have little tolerance for Deti’s judgment here.
If that’s the case, then everyone is both above and beneath criticism simultaneously. If I can’t criticize sluts, then I cannot be criticized for a history of confessed premarital infidelity. Every single person on the face of the earth has been dishonest at one point. So one can’t use my past dishonesty to discredit me or silence me. That’s just invalid ad hominem argument.
I can yell “Hypocrite!” and “Liar!” just as easily as everyone else.
If this is the case, then no one has any right to criticize anyone for anything or make any judgments for anyone’s activity at any time, anywhere.
I’m going to let this go now.
Sassy, no way that’s an 8 out of 10 unless you are leaving out something nutty like hardcore BSDM off your list. I’d peg that more at 5 or 6. That’s pretty mild kink.
Of course, everyone could just post their purity test scores…
@ OffTheCuff
I am leaving a lot of things off of that list, things that are far worse than those. You’ll have to take my word on it.
“Sassy, no way that’s an 8 out of 10 unless you are leaving out something nutty like hardcore BSDM off your list. I’d peg that more at 5 or 6. That’s pretty mild kink.”
OTC throwin’ down the gauntlet to Sassy to prove her kink bona fides!!
Are you gonna just let that challenge pass, Sassy?
Re: What’s DIRTY
Yep – that’s about it. Doesn’t need to be anything crazy. Just a complete lack of inhibition. Not laying there expecting me to do all the work, not worrying about looking or feeling “weird” about trying something new, completely taking charge and doing whatever feels good to *her* – just “going for it”, if you will.
@ Passer_By
I’ll have to let it pass, at this point, for two reasons.
1. Some of the commenters have stated their discomfort about this subject being discussed on the thread.
2. I don’t feel comfortable talking about the more extreme things that I like sexually. I don’t know if I should go there.
deti,
Emileigh’s case was different. She was someone looking to move past her previous promiscuity. You just kept harping on the former promiscuity and the permanent effect it’s going to have on her… meanwhile you committed worse transgressions in your past and take exception to the fact that people are allowing those mistakes to influence their judgments of you.
Asphyxiating someone for fun isn’t at the top of the list?
@ Jesus Mahoney
No.
JM:
You’re missing the point. Whatever one thinks of me, it detracts not one bit from the consequences Emileigh might face.
This is just ad hominem argument. You can’t point to the proponent of an argument and say “It’s an invalid argument because the person who makes it is flawed.”
I’m simply taking your position to its logical extreme. If I can’t judge anyone, then no one can judge me and in fact, no one can ever make any valid judgments about anyone. That of course is silly, but it’s the logical extension of the argument you’re making. It’s just that simple.
deti,
I’m not missing the point at all. You weren’t “arguing” anything; you were “shaming” Emileigh. You think stating that E’s promiscuity was going to lead to a lower MMV, a much smaller pool of men, etc…. needed to be stated–even once? That’s HUS 101. Not even. It’s HUS remedial. You were shaming her by repeatedly stating it and saying “it’s sad.” You know that. It was obvious.
Meanwhile you’ve got your own skeletons and you’re having a hissy fit that they’re being discussed here. I don’t personally care that you cheated 25 yrs ago. I think 16 yrs of faithful marriage, especially in light of the events of the past year, show you to be loyal. But… you’ve still got worse skeletons than Emileigh.
Not trying to butt into this argument, JM and deti, but seeing the words “taken to logical extreme” reminded me of this:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
What can I say… I used to look up lists of logical fallacies for fun.
Susan:
“Yes, I get where you’re going with this. There are two separate issues here. Deti vs. Mrs. Deti. I side with Deti. ”
How do we know that Mrs. Deti knew about Deti’s cheating when, to my knowledge, he only brought it up AFTER he was called out?
@Alias
Noooooooooooooooooo!
We were letting the convo die. You revived it.
BTW, I think deti’s wife was cruel by telling him she wasn’t attracted to him. Only I’m not totally convinced that she was telling him the truth.
I think that she went for the jugular because she was pissed off at him for some other reason that she may not even be aware of. Still, she delivered a tremendous emotional smack by saying what she did.
Charm:
“We were letting the convo die. You revived it.”
Oops!
I’m still reading somewhere upthread and only caught you when I glanced to see if my post came up. These comment sections explode in size, hard to keep up.
Susan:
” @Alias (LOL, that’s just slightly less anon than Anonymous)”
———–
Yeah, it beats Incognito
Sometimes when you’ve addressed me I haven’t replied because by then, it’s a day or 2 later, so I let it go. I don’t want you to think I’m ignoring you.
Wild in the sack means:
1. Enthusiasm/stamina/body comfort/insatiable. By far #1.
2. Willing to try anything that you suggest, and will suggest new things. You feel safe, even encouraged, to explore dark areas.
3. Won’t freak out or get offended at any suggestions, or if something doesn’t work well.
@Alias
You’ve got to keep up. Its best not to reply unless you’ve at least skimmed the last 50 messages posted. The convo topics change very rapidly. It took 4 days to get to 1300 comments.
Charm:
“You’ve got to keep up.”
Are you implying that I’m old?!
lol
@Alias
I don’t know how old you are. Most of the people here are 20-30 years older than me and they keep up just fine. Lol. But once a conversation has been resolved, no one will comment on it again. Its like poking a dead horse.
shame?!?!?
“How about withholding anesthesia from them in childbirth”
——–
Huh?
Giving birth w/o anesthesia has been done by legions of women, both globally and throughout history.
Charm:
“Its like poking a dead horse.”
——–
There you go poking at me again, implying that I’m both old AND slow.
Ha ha.
See;
charm: “Most of the people here are 20-30 years older than me and they keep up just fine. Lol. ”
———
I’ve already dropped it.
Didn’t realize it had officially ended since JesusM was still at it in #1321, but yeah, I’m done unless, of course,…….
you call me slow again! lol
Plain Jane alert! Plain Jane Alert!
I believe a website is only as popular as the trolls it attracts. Susan attracts very aggressive trolls. This must mean her website is very successful.
Charm:
I was kidding with you, not trolling.
Alias:
No it’s Shame?!?!?.
Cooper:
” No it’s Shame?!?!?.”
——–
Great, now you’re correcting me too.
Ha ha. I know, thanks. I was still teasing charm since she had already implied that I was old/slow and didn’t specify who the troll was.
ba-bye
JM 1321:
“You were shaming her by repeatedly stating it and saying “it’s sad.” You know that. It was obvious.”
If that was so obvious, then you should have called me out on it in that thread at the time. You didn’t. I wonder why.
Now that is one hell of a ringing endorsement/testimonial for marriage and a man making a lifelong commitment to one woman.
Aw, Mike, I’m sorry to have made things sound so bad. My point wasn’t that marriages inevitably go bad; it was that bad marriages are nothing new. What’s new is that people are more likely to leave bad marriages.
I noticed that you focused on my two widowed aunts. I could just have easily used my favorite uncle as an example. He stayed with a raving lunatic of a wife for close to 50 years. When she died, he went on the male equivalent of ELP leaving a trail behind him of brokenhearted old bats. Feel better now?
I could have also focused on happy long-term mariages, but that wasn’t my point. I refer you instead to various posts in which SW, Munson or I describe our marriages. I believe that all of us have been with out respective mates for 25 years or more.
@Ana
oh going well. Picky with the food, lazy and tired but aside from that everything going well,
That’s very normal for the first trimester. You’ll feel terrific during the second and tired again during the last. I’m glad things are going well.
I’m so sad you are going through so much. Hope it will be okay the next one.
Thanks. Me too.
I think there has been studies that show that the brief moment of happiness after leaving a “boring, dead end” marriage lasts very little and that people that survived the “boring stage” actually rediscovered joy on staying with their partners.
I believe that! Boredom’s no reason to leave; you can fix it.
Every marriage has it’s ups and downs, but the relationships I referenced were pretty bad. Of my two aunts for example, one was married to a cheater and the other to a drunk. Both stayed out of religious and economic reasons. You just don’t see people doing that any more. Mostly because they don’t have to.
OTOH, I have never seen an ELP divorce IRL. Of the couples I know in my age group, there’s always some problem that’s lasted 5-15 years and both people feel that life is too short to deal with it any longer.
Choking, coprophila, golden showers…My God, I feel old and tired. I’m going to bed.
That’s very normal for the first trimester. You’ll feel terrific during the second …
Yes I’m about to enter my second trimester in a week or so. Can’t wait to be back to my normal hyperactive self, although my mother told me that she didn’t had a lot of symptoms except tired and hungry all the time so I’m not counting my chickens till they hatch. I just hope I do get the “I feel like I can touch the moon and destroy it in my hands” feelings soon. I have too many books to read that I just feel like not no to mention I had abandoned cooking almost altogether. I shouldn’t complain though, I’m doing a lot better that many women, still…being tired all the time sucks.
@ Cheerful #788
True that-any woman with a molecule of estrogen can tell when a man finds her attractive.
Susan,
By the way, I mentioned here recently that a young woman shared that she doesn’t know anyone – anyone – who hasn’t cheated or been cheated on in an LTR. I believe this is because so many LTRs are really just glorified booty calls, with little emotional intimacy or loyalty. There’s so much cheating out there that demanding a partner that’s never ever done it is going to mean a small pool of potential matches. I’m not saying people should compromise their values, I’m just apprising you of “market conditions.”
This is the problem I have with people condeming cheating.
By and large, both men and women who complain are often the ones who got cheated on. But it has to be asked: How serious were they about the relationship, *really*?
I know is sucks to be tooled, but … why were you “just dating”? Why not wait and seek something more serious?
Most relationships are relationships of convenience.
It’s taken a monumental effort on my part to unprogram myself. I needed to reprogram myself with these ideas:
- I should be looking for emotional intimacy and building a continuous story with one person
- This is of immense value, and not a limit on my experience
- I am doing this for the betterment of us both, as human beings.
Despite being a rapacious cad, and my SO being a self-absorbed narcissist, we’ve had open discussions of this on some levels and she finds it illuminating.
She’s not just a hot chick I happen to be with; she’s that, too. But she’s also a companion and potential mate. Likely actual mate, in fact.
Anyway, this takes a change not just in some abstract notion of “seriousness”, but in how you view relationships overall.
I may, indeed, one day cheat. Or she might. But should our relationship have real substance, and I think it’s definitely developing it, then it would both survive this, render it less relevant, and more importantly – as a result – render it less likely.
Just being a religiously minded conservative with morals doesn’t make your relationships any more serious or give them depth; de-rigeur loyalty for its own sake is not self-reflective and is mechanical.
Now, I need to weigh the consequences not just of loss of mate as a result of cheating, but of loss of the desired intimacy I have with my SO. I value that.
Susan,
Susan Walsh March 27, 2012 at 4:46 pm
@Gorbachev
But the first step to a solution is accepting that these Alpha guys are not fundamentally different from other guys. A wonderful Beta husband could be slamming a half a dozen wet pussies for all a wife knows. I know one who does, and who feels guilt over it – and slams them anyway.
Of course people are full of surprises – we even surprise ourselves. But you’re ignoring the very real role of genetics here, which at least partly determine hormonal levels, personality traits and outlook. It’s ludicrous to claim that all men are equally capable of becoming Jeffrey Dahmer, or that all women are equally likely to become heroin addicts, for example.
Human beings are 99% alike, or more. But it’s that tiny sliver of difference that makes life interesting, unpredictable, joyful and painful.
I agree.
The thing I object to is the demonization. In this case ,telling the girl to walk away from a guy because he’s helping another woman cheat. I mean, look at the SMP today: if you throw away everyone who stepped out, was stepped out with, or was non-committal while tarting around, most young men and women would be out.
That said, I personally think that that particular nest of friends was an Alpha snake pit. I’m familiar. I recognize it .Women fall into them due to female nature; they enjoy it as much as anyone.
But this is by definition a place where men and women wage sexual politics wars.
Engage at your peril.
I strongly advise that her attraction to X guy not be demonized, either.
it’s wholly predictable.
But just because a plant wants to spread out and make a mess, doesn’t mean it can’t be pruned and espaliered so that it’s more manageable.
But you know these days. Judgement of behavoir of any kind is no longer tolerated.
Jason said:
“What constitutes “normal” sex?”
__________________________
Four cans of Penn brand raquetballs, size 13 crampons, leashes, and some thorazine is all you need for that.
Normal sex in the morning is my absolute favorite.
@deti
I agree – since we’re all sinners, you should perhaps tread lightly on the condemnation of female nature or behavior. And we should go easy on you, which is what I have recommended.
Any woman who isn’t doing this already needs to get with the program. Talk about a red flag for guys – if I were a guy self-conscious behavior and lack of initiative in bed would be a total dealbreaker. If that’s how it is in the early days, the sex is never going to be great.
@Deti
I don’t think Jesus is saying your argument was invalid. He shares your concerns about women with highly promiscuous pasts, in fact. I think he’s objecting to the apparent hypocrisy. Your argument is not fact based – it’s a judgment call about Emileigh’s relationship fitness. I think it’s fair to examine the relationship fitness of the person making such an argument. Pot meet kettle and all that.
Jesus isn’t saying your argument is wrong because you cheated – that would be ad hominem. He’s saying your credibility is questionable. That’s very different.
Ad hominem may be overused in debate, but so is the declaration that it’s being used.
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