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Keep Your Eyes on the Prize

The More You Know.

By the always brilliant Jessica Hagy of Indexed.

  • Keroberos

    I question whether this graph applies equally to both sexes.

  • http://loveashley.net Ashley

    Ha pretty much.

  • Male Perspective

    I don’t regret easing off dating when I had to buckle down in college. It cleared out all the drama when I needed to focus and paid off for me in the long run.

  • DerHahn

    I know this opinion willl buck the perceived wisdom around here but personal experience says this graph is a fail.

    Nerds don’t get laid. Ever.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’d add that there are two different curves there – in my experience the guys who study and do well in school have the last laugh, though they don’t have the access the party animals do in college.

      Also, Hagy labeled the axis “romance department,” not “pump and dump department.” It’s about winning hearts and minds!

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    @DerHahn:

    The hell you say. As not just a Nerd, but a NERD LORD, I not only got laid, I got laid a lot. The idea that nerds can’t get laid is fallacious — they may not get the cream of the crop, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t getting their pencils wet. To my knowledge, Marching Band was seething with erotic tension and I hooked up myself four times in the computer room. And this was BEFORE college.

    Nerd don’t get laid, ever? I beg to differ! Anime chicks alone can keep you in pussy for a good long time!

    Ian Ironwood, Esquire
    Professional Sex Nerd

  • beta_plus

    I’d say this chart applies more to non-omega males than females. If a girl plays her cards right, there’s no reason that she can’t do both in university. In fact, if she works really hard, she can get into universities like Dartmouth, Cornell, many of the Canadian Universities* and to a lesser extent UVA where not only will she be able to get a great education assuming she gets a hard STEM degree, she’ll have the pick of the litter as well. It’s when she gets cocky and over reaches thinking she can also party constantly that she gets in trouble.

    While it is better advice for guys, it’s not perfect. One thing that sinks many guys is that the frustration and hopelessness with women gets so bad that it leads to depression and an inability to study.

    * what – you don’t like tall, dark, handsome and charming men with dirt cheap tuition – fine stay in the states – there’s a reason game was invented in Canada

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      * what – you don’t like tall, dark, handsome and charming men with dirt cheap tuition – fine stay in the states – there’s a reason game was invented in Canada

      LOL, that’s true! Mystery posted up at bars in Montreal for years, as I recall.

  • DerHahn

    Ian, you’re using a different definition of the word ‘nerd’, IMO, something that comes closer to what I think of when people say ‘geek’.

    People who hole themselves up studying and don’t engage socially don’t have opportunities. Doing so under the assumption that you’re going to exit college to some sort of relationship nirvana doesn’t work.

    I’m no player but my freshman/sophomore years in college were actually pretty good *because I was active socially* (junior and senior years were a MGHOW time). The worst dryspell of my life happened immediately after I graduated because I fell into the beta/omega mindset that my degree and shiny new job would have women chasing me around. It lead to a shotgun marriage to a totally unsuitable mate.

  • DerHanh

    @susan, personal experience, antecdote is not data and all that, but it’s a fail in that department, too. See above.

  • Male Perspective

    “People who hole themselves up studying and don’t engage socially don’t have opportunities. Doing so under the assumption that you’re going to exit college to some sort of relationship nirvana doesn’t work.”

    That’s what online dating is for.

  • Ramble

    I’d add that there are two different curves there – in my experience the guys who study and do well in school have the last laugh

    In my experience, those guys that get the “last laugh” is with girls who are past their prime. Susan, I apologize if my comment re-ignites the kinds of flames that you have been looking to put out lately, but I would also hate if some young men here got the wrong idea.

    Improving your knowledge and skills throughout college (and life, in general) is undoubtedly a good thing, but don’t miss out on the hot co-eds so that you can marry some girl after she turns 30.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In my experience, those guys that get the “last laugh” is with girls who are past their prime.

      Beta guys often come into their own about five years after college. They have tasted some career advancement, they’re removed from some of the peer pressure/pluralistic ignorance, and their SMV is only increasing. I know it sucks to wait, I’m not saying it doesn’t. My advice to one of those guys is to seek out a girl who’s a year or two out of college, one who hasn’t ridden the carousel (obviously). Just being 5 years older is attractive, and girls that age are literally starving for attention from men who will commit.

  • Male Perspective

    Has anyone here ever witnessed someone who wanted to be married since the time they started dating in their teens go through life never alone, not without a relationship, but still unable to make any of those relationships, even the live in ones, progress to marriage? What is this?

  • Alias

    Now I feel really old.
    Back in the good ole days (lol)
    quite a few of us attended school full-time, worked part/full-time jobs, and found lasting relationships, all simultaneously.

    College was the perfect setting for finding a mate.
    It worked for me and several other couples that I know.
    I don’t understand what’s so difficult about maintaining a relationship while going to school. ??? You’re going to have to maintain a relationship while you work, keep a house, have other involvements in addition to having kids/extended family, so what’s the difference except w/o kids, it’s actually easier.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    That’s what online dating is for.

    HEY! That is the most pure level of…TRUTH! :p mea culpa.

  • Male Perspective

    Alias, the difference now is that college kids are relunctant to commit to just one bf or gf.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Has anyone here ever witnessed someone who wanted to be married since the time they started dating in their teens go through life never alone, not without a relationship, but still unable to make any of those relationships, even the live in ones, progress to marriage? What is this?

    I had seen this happening but IME this are people that idealize marriage and married life so much that even if they have a partner that fills 99% of their ideal they still don’t want to try it waiting for the 100%.
    You want to hear a funny thing most of the people I knew were also psychologists with specialty in marriage counseling. Crazy I know. It was a case of “doctors that cannot heal thyself”, YMMV.

  • Male Perspective

    Ana, I think in the cases I’ve seen they are not holding out for 100% but none of the people they get in relationships with, some for years, are ever willing to make the jump into marriage with them. Can’t figure it out. I’m talking about attractive, smart people here.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Ana, I think in the cases I’ve seen they are not holding out for 100% but none of the people they get in relationships with, some for years, are ever willing to make the jump into marriage with them. Can’t figure it out. I’m talking about attractive, smart people here.

    Then they are not jumping ship fast enough. If marriage is your goal after certain prudent time of getting to know each other, making sure your partner is on the same page is very important. If after that they still have doubts is better to try and move on with someone else, IMO, YMMV.

  • Male Perspective

    Ana, now these people are in their mid-late 30s. I think they’ve given up on marriage and kids and are just happy that someone still finds them desireable enough to live with.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Ana, now these people are in their mid-late 30s. I think they’ve given up on marriage and kids and are just happy that someone still finds them desireable enough to live with.

    Well that is just sad. One of the reasons I took the initiative to find my husband online was that I know that if I didn’t changed many of my patterns I would never get married and have children and I would be damned if I failed without trying my darnest best, YMMV.

  • Alias

    Male Perspective:
    “the difference now is that college kids are relunctant to commit to just one bf or gf.”
    ——-
    Oh, I know.
    I blame the older generation for discouraging the younger ones from finding a partner early on.
    There’s no reason why people can’t attend school and keep a relationship. It’s not preparing anyone for real life.

    When you’re looking for a spouse, it’s like you’re looking for a family member. Someone to grow up with and share a history with. (at least, that’s how I saw it.)
    Why would you postpone finding that person?
    Do you stop seeing family for a few years because you’re attending school?
    (this isn’t directed at you, it’s a rhetorical question)

  • Male Perspective

    Funny enough, they met they current partners….. online.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Funny enough, they met they current partners….. online.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSZaC_W7eyE

  • Richard Aubrey

    Been exclusive, and then married since 1968, so take that into account. I asked my wife some years back–she’d been in a sorority–about an idea I had for a short story. It was about a guy who asked a woman out just for fun. He’d been in Viet Nam and lost a hand. Problem with that, going to a concert? He was pretty on top of things otherwise.
    “Oh, yes. We were looking for husband material. You didn’t even date for fun if there wasn’t a possibility he was marriage material. It might have been a just-to-get-acquainted date, but the marriage template was out and ready for assessment.” I paraphrase. I was shocked.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Hmmmm. I am several years post college.

    No.

    This works only for women and they date guys older than them. Men must continue to wait until late 20s before the inherent beta-tude becomes acceptable. The only solution for men post college is to aggressively learn game, and then go back to the campuses through their old social networks.

  • John

    Susan while you are correct a man’s SMV increases years after college, if the beta does not actively try to instill in him, at least some alpha traits he will end up marrying a woman who fvcks around but wants marriage for stability. It’s the provider vs lover dichotomy, and college doesn’t change whether you are a provider or lover.

    Like most things in life you need balance, not extremes. I don’t see why a man or woman can’t date in college while still studying. If it becomes an overwhelming habit where you forgo your studies then it is a problem. But for a person to reach their college years and beyond (22) without having any sort of relationship is very unlikely. It’s just up to parents to make sure they have the right type of relationship and not end up as a cum-dumpster…

  • Chris_in_CA

    “My advice to one of those guys is to seek out a girl who’s a year or two out of college, one who hasn’t ridden the carousel (obviously).”

    It’s good advice – enough so that the guy won’t wonder TOO much if he’s the ‘second choice.’

    However, identifying the girls who didn’t ride the carousel is the problem. And that’s where guys stumble…because there’s almost nothing they can do to ascertain whether or not the girl didn’t ride, or is just lying to him. They are at the mercy of the girl’s word.

    And nowadays, that’s no longer enough.

  • Male Perspective

    Hey great idea. Why don’t guys who bombed out with girls in college return to same college once they’ve matured and come more into their own? Anyone here tried that? Results?

  • Jacob Ian Stalk

    Oh dear. You’re mistaking “brilliant” for a hamster rest break.

    “Luck” is not a dependent variable – that’s why it’s called luck.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “Anyone here tried that? Results?”

    The last time I ventured back into college was a few months ago and I got eye-fucked by three girls and one directly fished out of me whether or not I was single.

    But:

    That’s totally different from actually closing.

  • Male Perspective

    In other words you didn’t pursue their leads? Shyness took over?

  • Giraffe

    For women, there need only be one curve, that being curve A.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    MP, I had a GF I was very, very satisfied with at the time. There was no reason to note the interest of these girls other than academic curiosity.

    If I see a girl I want to talk to now, I just talk to her. What’s the worst that could happen? Why would I feel bad being rejected by what is essentially a dice roll? Talking to women and escalating in general is like gambling, except that you never, ever lose if you don’t invest because you pay nothing to roll the dice.

  • Male Perspective

    “For women, there need only be one curve, that being curve A.”

    How so?

  • Mike M.

    Hmmm….

    I’m going to agree with Susan. More for men than women, but it does apply to both. Education is a way to increase earning potential, but it’s also a test of character. A demonstration of commitment. The flaky party girl majoring in basketweaving will go full-bore EPL on you in a few years – she doesn’t have the staying power to be prime LTR material. That STEM guy? Never mind the money, he’s a dead reliable sort, not likely to dump anyone for trivial causes. Grab him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That STEM guy? Never mind the money, he’s a dead reliable sort, not likely to dump anyone for trivial causes. Grab him.

      Absolutely. I’d add that there were a ton of STEM guys in b-school, and they had it going on, intellectually I mean. Funny, well-read, interesting, really smart. These guys are the husbands and dads. And a lot of them were pretty cute too.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “Beta guys often come into their own about five years after college.”

    I’m not so sure of that, I think I would have turned omega, or (worse) be totally stuck in lower-lower betaville forecer if I didn’t find love in college proper.

  • Ramble

    Beta guys often come into their own about five years after college. They have tasted some career advancement … and girls that age are literally starving for attention from men who will commit.

    “So, guys, you heard her, wait until you are 27 and then you will have the opportunity, if you are financially successful, to have a committed relationship with girls who are, for some reason, starving for attention.”

    Susan, there is no reason to say this to young men.

    You are a fan of game, just preach it.

    “Guys, learn some game and have all the sex (committed, casual, whatever it is that you are looking for) and fun times that you want.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      You are a fan of game, just preach it.

      Sure, that’s fine. I’m just saying – beta guys see their SMV go up in their 20s. Game can obviously help – either to get them there faster, or to get them a higher SMV woman in their late 20s. I think most guys are not looking to settle down before then anyway. Remember – I’m all about the LTR. I have zero interest in encouraging men or women to go for casual.

  • Lokland

    @Ramble

    +1

    Yup guys, wait till your 27 then go for the post college chick. Buckle down and study up. When the urge to put a bullet through your head gets too strong just cry and think about the future and your glorious, slightly used wife.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Any girl past 16 is most likely going to be used. And yes, lots of us suck with women at a younger age because we weren’t emotionally mature yet, we were lied to, etc.

    You just gotta get over that. Just don’t accept second-best. Most of her sexual experiences are going to be lame and you are going to have the opportunity to show her something more awesome.

  • Male Perspective

    “Any girl past 16 is most likely going to be used. ”

    Consensual sex doesn’t count for anything anymore? Geez.

  • Sassy6519

    Any girl past 16 is most likely going to be used

    Am I the only one who had a problem with the phrasing of this sentence?

    Being referred to as “used” isn’t sitting too well with me, for some reason.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      Am I the only one who had a problem with the phrasing of this sentence?

      Being referred to as “used” isn’t sitting too well with me, for some reason.

      No you are not! It’s just petulance – the guy didn’t get there first.

  • Male Perspective

    And its not sitting too well with me either, as a man! Male sexuality is desireable. We don’t have to “use” women to get sex from them. Women engage in consensual sex with us because they desire us.

  • stillcode

    For the beta men out there who have worked their brains out and gone through college alone, I say you should just go the extra mile to learn a foreign language and live in a foreign country for a while. Find a nice local girl for yourself then, if your best career opportunities lie in the US, come back and bring her with you. If you’re good enough to go to college, you should be capable of speaking a foreign language and capable of traveling.
    (To the posters who say “She’s just after your green card.” I reply that international marriages have a success rate of approximately 80% according to the formerly known US Immigration and Naturalization Services.)

  • stillcode

    Correction: “She’s just after you for a green card.”

  • Male Perspective

    I’ll even go so far as to saying this “used” mentality shames men and male sexuality. It leads us to shamefully believe that we are perverts, nay criminals, USERS, just for engaging in consensual sex or reciprocating a woman’s desire for us. Seems some men here need to liberate their own sexuality and get some self esteem.

  • A definite beta guy

    I didn’t start the phrasing. Regardless, most guys do not want their prospective mates to be indiscriminate in their love making. If you have a problem with that, don’t date guys.

  • Male Perspective

    Most guys have no idea just how sexually desireable they/we are.
    They mired in shame and low self esteem.

  • Sassy6519

    @ A Definite Beta Guy

    I didn’t start the phrasing. Regardless, most guys do not want their prospective mates to be indiscriminate in their love making. If you have a problem with that, don’t date guys.

    I don’t have a problem with men wanting the women they date to be discriminate in their love making. What I do object to is the notion that any woman over the age of 16, regardless of her number of sexual partners, is seen as “used”. Even women with a partner count of 1 are seen as “used”.

    It’s like checking the tread on the tires of a car. It’s fine to do that to a car, because it is an object. Saying that about a human female is an extreme case of objectification.

    Heaven forbid I’ve had sex with another man. Suddenly, I’ve worn out my vagina and am seen as damaged. Does the fact that another penis has been in a vagina warrant such a loaded term as “used”?

    It just makes me feel like chattel. The last thing I want is to be seen as an object. No one owns me.

    If you want an objectified woman, stick with prostitutes, strippers, and mail order brides. At least those women are paid to be objectified.

  • A definite beta guy

    I have no shame. Shame is externally driven. It means society says you are a bad person.

    There is no respecting this society, though, so I don’t even know HOW to feel shame anymore.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I have no shame. Shame is externally driven. It means society says you are a bad person.

    No, guilt is externally driven; shame is internally driven.

  • OffTheCuff

    Really, the objectification canard?

    Yeah it sucks, Sassy. I don’t want to be seen as gross or ugly or an ATM, any more than you want to be seen as “used”, be we can’t control what other people think of us, can we? We’re judged all the damn time, correctly and incorrectly, and we’re all objects until someone actually loves us specifically.

    Face it, everyone’s an object in some way to most everyone.

  • A definite beta guy

    Guys want exclusive sexual domination of their women. To some extent, you ARE chattel. Sorry we evolved that way, but that’s how it is for a lot of men.

    Most men are also able to overlook this. So give us SOME credit.

    JM, shame is a recognition of violation of social norms, no? Guilt is a violation of internal norms. At least, that’s how it was explained to me.

  • Sassy6519

    @ OffTheCuff

    Being seen as gross or ugly are not instances of objectification. Being viewed or used as an ATM is, however.

    I have just as much contempt for women who view men as ATMs as well. It objectifies men, and that’s not good.

    Guys want exclusive sexual domination of their women. To some extent, you ARE chattel. Sorry we evolved that way, but that’s how it is for a lot of men.

    I refuse to be any man’s chattel. Fuck that noise.

    I’ll just try to avoid men who view non-virginal women as “used”. I’m sure there are some of them out there.

  • A definite beta guy

    What do you think monogamy is? It is there because your man does not want you screwing other men.

    You are very unlikely to fully escape the chattel mindset

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Regarding “getting there first,” I came across a couple of passages from a terrific short story I read a while back and became reacquainted with today.

    They’re from Tim O’Brien’s The Things They Carried, a semi-fictional story based on the author’s experiences in Vietnam.

    First Lieutenant Jimmy Cross carried letters from a girl named Martha, ajunior at Mount Sebastian College in New Jersey. They were not loveletters, but Lieutenant Cross was hoping, so he kept them folded in plastic at the bottom of his rucksack. In the late afternoon, after a day’s march,he would dig his foxhole, wash his hands under a canteen, unwrap theletters, hold them with the tips of his fingers, and spend the last hour oflight pretending. He would imagine romantic camping trips into the WhiteMountains in New Hampshire. He would sometimes taste the envelope flaps,knowing her tongue had been there. More than anything, he wanted Martha tolove him as he loved her, but the letters were mostly chatty, elusiveon the matter of love. She was a virgin, he was almost sure. She was anEnglish major at Mount Sebastian, and she wrote beautifully about herprofessors and roommates and midterm exams, about her respect for Chaucerand her great affection for Virginia Woolf. She often quoted lines .of poetry; she never mentioned the war, exceptto say, Jimmy, take care of yourself. The letters weighed ten ounces. Theywere signed “Love, Martha,” but Lieutenant Cross understood that Love was only a way of signing and did not mean what he sometimes pretended it meant. At dusk, he would carefullyreturn the letters to his rucksack. Slowly, a bit distracted, he would getup and move among his men, checking the perimeter, then at full dark hewould return to his hole and watch the night and wonder if Martha was a virgin…

    Almost everyone humped photographs. In his wallet, Lieutenant Cross carried two photographs of Martha. The first was a Kodachrome snapshot signed”Love,” though he knew better. She stood against a brick wall. Her eyes were gray and neutral, her lips slightly open as she stared straight-on at the camera. At night, sometimes,Lieutenant Cross wondered who had taken the picture, because he knew she had boyfriends, because he loved her so much, and because he could seethe shadow of the picture taker spreading out against the brick wall. The second photograph had been clipped from the 1968 Mount Sebastian yearbook.It was an action shot–women’s volleyball–and Martha was bent horizontal to the floor, reaching, the palms of her hands in sharp focus, the tongue taut, the expression frank and competitive. There was no visible sweat. She wore white gym shorts. Her legs, he thought, were almost certainly the legs of a virgin, dry and without hair, the left knee cocked and carrying her entire weight, which was just over one hundred pounds.Lieutenant Cross remembered touching that left knee. A dark theater, he remembered, and the movie was Bonnie and Clyde, and Martha wore a tweed skirt, and during the final scene, when he touched her knee, she turned and looked at him in a sad, sober way that made him pull his hand back, but he would always remember the feel of the tweed skirt and the knee beneath it and the sound of the gunfire that killed Bonnie and Clyde, how embarrassing it was, how slow and oppressive. He remembered kissing her goodnight at the dorm door. Right then, he thought, he should’ve done something brave. He should’ve carried her up the stairs to her room and tied her to the bed and touched that left knee all nightlong. He should’ve risked it. Whenever he looked at the photographs, he thought of new things he should’ve done.

    There’s something about the desperate innocence that he wants to cling to in the midst of the horrors he’s experiencing, his longing for her (him tasting the envelope she would’ve certainly licked when sending it off is such a pathetic, gut-wrenching detail), the naive, idealistic hope he puts in her… puts in love–that I find incredibly moving. I’ve been rereading it. I shared it with my gf.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    JM, shame is a recognition of violation of social norms, no? Guilt is a violation of internal norms. At least, that’s how it was explained to me.

    I think you have it reversed.

    The best distinction I ever heard of the two terms:

    Guilt=I made a mistake.

    Shame=I am a mistake.

  • Sassy6519

    @ A Definite Beta Guy

    What do you think monogamy is? It is there because your man does not want you screwing other men.

    You are very unlikely to fully escape the chattel mindset

    You’ve just switched the goal posts.

    We aren’t talking about monogamy. We are talking about whether or not non-virginal women, regardless of the extent of their sexual histories, are “used”.

    I am not a virgin. There will have been other men who have slept with me before my next future partner. He will not be first, and the idea of him viewing me as “used” goods rubs me the wrong way.

    If he viewed me as sexually experienced, I’d have no problem with that. That’s what I am. I have a problem with the word “used”, in this scenario, because it is objectification.

    It’s just the wording that is bothering me.

  • A definite beta guy

    It’s not shifting goal posts if both desires come from the same place. A lot of guys would truly prefer being their partner’s one and only. That does not make them bad men. I am just telling them that they are being unrealistic and shutting out good women.

    Without shaming their desires that I understand perfectly well. That will get me nowhere.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    The guy in the Tim O’Brien story sounds like a fucking creeper. That’s not romantic to me. It’s obsessive, and a bit unnerving.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Being seen as gross or ugly are not instances of objectification. Being viewed or used as an ATM is, however.

    They’re all examples of objectification, because in each case, the person is being seen in terms of his effect on the viewer and not for who he is as an individual human being, i.e. a “subject.”

  • Ramble

    Remember – I’m all about the LTR. I have zero interest in encouraging men or women to go for casual.

    The guy can go for whatever he wants when he is 16, or 26, or whatever, but Game will help him get there.

    And, yes, after learning game, he probably will enjoy some casual sex. Which is just fine.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The guy in the Tim O’Brien story sounds like a fucking creeper. That’s not romantic to me. It’s obsessive, and a bit unnerving.

    lol. I knew you would say that, Sassy.

    Of course he’s obsessing: he’s living in a strange jungle where people are trying to blow him up or shoot him, where every man, woman, and child he encounters may–or may not–be the enemy. He’s a kid in the middle of a war: love is the only hope he’s got to hold onto. You say obsessive, I say desperate.

  • Sassy6519

    They’re all examples of objectification, because in each case, the person is being seen in terms of his effect on the viewer and not for who he is as an individual human being, i.e. a “subject.”

    No they are not. Only the ATM example is.

    Objectification is the instance of viewing, treating, or using a person as an object instead of as a human. Thinking someone is gross or ugly is not objectification. Humans are capable of being ugly and gross. There is no need to view, treat, or use them as an object to accomplish it.

    Viewing men as ATMs, however, is objectification. In that instance, the man isn’t viewed as a human. He is instead viewed as a cash-dispensing machine to use at a woman’s leisure. Notice how he is viewed as an object (ATM) and is “used”.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    You’re wrong, and you’ll continue to think I’m wrong, so let’s not bother.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Shame and guilt: General usage is that shame is externally-driven, involving fear of ostracism by others (“no one will never talk to me again), whereas guilt is internally-driven(“I’ll be a bad person”). See Wikipedia article on shame society, which has a link to “guilt society.”

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    I think you’re wrong, and you’ll continue to think I’m wrong, so let’s not bother.

    I fixed it for you.

    You can’t claim that I’m wrong. You can claim that you think I’m wrong. The truth is out there. Let other people decide for themselves.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    You can’t claim that I’m wrong

    I can claim whatever I want.

  • Male Perspective

    So you’re encouraging women to see 1/2 of the human race as users? That’s sexist.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Thanks, Dave. I guess I had it backward.

  • Lokland

    @Susan, Sassy

    I see I caused a little shit storm with my word choice. I feel like I accomplished something good today.

    Anyway, it was the suggestion that the beta guy sit out on the action and wait till he arcs up in value while the lady in question either
    a) screws around (even with a few guys, casual or serious) or
    b) lets her SMV drop while she sits out.

    Either way, its not an equal trade.

    As for assuming any girl who has had a penis in her vagina is used. Thats nonsense. Making a judgement call to avoid her however is acceptable. (Totally devoid of my opinion on number.)

    @Male Perspective

    “I’ll even go so far as to saying this “used” mentality shames men and male sexuality. It leads us to shamefully believe that we are perverts, nay criminals, USERS, just for engaging in consensual sex or reciprocating a woman’s desire for us. Seems some men here need to liberate their own sexuality and get some self esteem.”

    You start by bitching about shaming male sexuality and then finish by shaming male sexuality. I see what you did there.

  • Male Perspective

    “Guilt=I made a mistake. Shame=I am a mistake.”

    Consensual sex between two adults is neither a shameful mistake nor a guilty mistake.

    “And, yes, after learning game, he probably will enjoy some casual sex. Which is just fine.”

    Exactly. Not shameful, not a mistake, not using someone. Just fine.

  • OffTheCuff

    You said being thought of as “used” makes YOU feel like an object, like chattel, regardless of the thinker’s intent. You don’t know that he thinks of you as an object, that wasin your mind, perhaps he thinks you are just a human but one whose pair-bonding ability is worn down and not “new”. (NOT a position I personally agree with, I am arguing what is objectification.)

    So if it’s not intent, but how the receiver feels then… perhaps you thinking of a man as gross makes HIM feel like an object, like a monster or a pile of dung.

    So why is one objectification but the other isn’t?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    I can claim whatever I want.

    Cool story bro.

    @ Male Perspective

    So you’re encouraging women to see 1/2 of the human race as users? That’s sexist.

    1. Who is your comment directed to?

    2. If it’s me, I’m not encouraging women to see men as users. I am bothered by the word “used” when it’s meant to describe non-virginal women. How can I think that men are “users” if I don’t think women are “used”? If anything, I’m rallying against the notion of “users” and “used”, in general, when it comes to sex.

    @ Lokland

    No problem man. You and I are in agreement, after the clarification.

  • OffTheCuff

    Plain Jane again. Go away.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Consensual sex between two adults is neither a shameful mistake nor a guilty mistake.

    Consensual sex with 100 different partners isn’t a mistake either, unless the person regrets it afterwards.

  • Male Perspective

    Sassy, not directed at you. At those who think consensual sex between is not an equal exchange but a situation where one party is the user and the other the used. As a man I find that highly offensive to my manhood and male sexuality.

  • Lokland

    @JM

    “Consensual sex with 100 different partners isn’t a mistake either, unless the person regrets it afterwards.”

    Thats rape you idiot ask the lawyery ppl :P

  • Jesus Mahoney

    As a man I find that highly offensive to my manhood and male sexuality.

    Wow, get over yourself.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Thats rape you idiot ask the lawyery ppl :P

    lol

  • Male Perspective

    “Thats rape you idiot ask the lawyery ppl”

    Its not a far leap from being used to being raped so be careful what you call sex.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    MP

    Most of us don’t think of relationship sex as “being used.”

  • SayWhaat

    JM, are you teaching at the creative writing program at NYU? Reason I ask is because one of my creative writing professors had us read that Tim O’Brien story as an example of how listing objects in a story can evoke a better understanding of a character.

  • SayWhaat

    I’ll just try to avoid men who view non-virginal women as “used”. I’m sure there are some of them out there.

    Well I can introduce you to a ton of them, lol. </3

  • Sassy6519

    @ OffTheCuff

    Considering a man an ATM is objectification because it is viewing him as something completely separate from his humanity. He is viewed as a machine instead of as a human.

    Saying someone is ugly or gross is not objectification because he is still viewed as human. Humans are capable of being ugly or gross. There is no need to view him as non-human. A person can be viewed as ugly/gross and still retain their humanity.

    Viewing a woman’s non-virginal state as being “used” is objectification. It strips her of her humanity, making her an object that has been handled and manipulated by another instead of being viewed as a human who consented to sexual intercourse with another. Viewing women as being “used” is a denial of female autonomy. It implies that the woman had no choice in her sexual experiences and was at the full will and whim of a man.

  • SayWhaat

    Alias,

    I don’t understand what’s so difficult about maintaining a relationship while going to school. ??? You’re going to have to maintain a relationship while you work, keep a house, have other involvements in addition to having kids/extended family, so what’s the difference except w/o kids, it’s actually easier.

    Thank you. I kid you not, this is literally the exact thing I have said to people whenever they claim they “just don’t have time for a relationship right now!”

  • Male Perspective

    For every one woman you call “used” you are calling all the men she desired “users”. That’s misandry.

  • OffTheCuff

    Tortured feminist bullshit logic, where you get to decide what’s dehumanizing, but not men. I’m glad I’m not fooled anymore.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “It’s just petulance – the guy didn’t get there first.”

    You under estimate how good it feels to get there first.
    AMOG of her life (assuming you stick around).

    It is by no means necessary (obviously) but don’t discount how good it can feel for a guy. (And it only feels good if your actually into more than her tits.)

    As for how a guy acts about not getting there first, first and foremost its degree. Not everyone can be there first, hopefully your last. Buts it kinda like climbing Everest. No one gives a fuck after a certain point. However number 2, 3, 4 and a few more can probably be considered notable still.

    Anyway, my point was. There is a very real dopamine release on getting there first (at least for me). How someone acts if they can’t get their “fix” is another matter entirely.

  • David

    I will be sure to bookmark your blog and will eventually come back at some point. I want to encourage you to definitely continue your great job, have a nice afternoon!

  • Sassy6519

    @ OffTheCuff

    Tortured feminist bullshit logic, where you get to decide what’s dehumanizing, but not men. I’m glad I’m not fooled anymore.

    1. I am very far from being a feminist. That should be readily apparent from my writings on this blog.

    2. It’s not just about men. Women can be ugly/gross too. It’s still not objectification though.

    Question for you. Do you believe it is possible for humans to be ugly/gross?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Saywhaat,

    JM, are you teaching at the creative writing program at NYU? Reason I ask is because one of my creative writing professors had us read that Tim O’Brien story as an example of how listing objects in a story can evoke a better understanding of a character.

    You’re going to NYU? I was there as an undergrad. And no, I’m not teaching anywhere right now.

    O’Brien does a masterful job of evoking characters through the objects carried in their rucksacks. It’s really an ingenious focus–almost like a desert island list, only the characters are traipsing through the bowels of hell carrying items that help them hold on to some vestige of their humanity: floss and foot powder, tranquilizers and 7 or 8 ounces of premium dope, comic books, condoms, an illustrated New Testament, canned peaches in heavy syrup to pour over pound cake. And Cross’s non-love letters.

  • Male Perspective

    Well I say its dehumanizing to me as a man to be considered a “user” just because I have sex with a woman who wants me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Do you believe it is possible for humans to be ugly/gross?

    Heck, I think it’s possible for them to be ATMs.

    Objectification has to do with seeing people in a limited and self-serving sort of way. Men “objectify” strippers by only seeing them as sex objects for their own gratification. If you look at a physically unattractive person and “see” ugly, then you’re objectifying the person–because you’re not viewing the person as an entity unto himself. All you’re seeing is his effect on you. In other words, you’re the only subject in the equation, it’s only your wants, needs, thoughts that you’re considering. If you see gross, then you’re objectifying the person even more.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    MP,

    Well I say its dehumanizing to me as a man to be considered a “user” just because I have sex with a woman who wants me.

    If, in the act of having sex, your only real concern is your sexual pleasure, then you’re “using” your sex partner.

  • SayWhaat

    JM, I graduated from NYU last May.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    Heck, I think it’s possible for them to be ATMs.

    Objectification has to do with seeing people in a limited and self-serving sort of way. Men “objectify” strippers by only seeing them as sex objects for their own gratification. If you look at a physically unattractive person and “see” ugly, then you’re objectifying the person–because you’re not viewing the person as an entity unto himself. All you’re seeing is his effect on you. In other words, you’re the only subject in the equation, it’s only your wants, needs, thoughts that you’re considering. If you see gross, then you’re objectifying the person even more.

    My God.

    Let me break this down one more time.

    Thinking someone is ugly/gross is not objectification. Humans are capable of being gross/ugly. If you don’t think that is the case, the point is moot.

    Humans cannot be ATMs. It’s impossible. One is a living creature and the other is a mechanical device. Viewing someone or treating someone as an ATM is objectification. They are no longer seen as human, but as a cash-dispensing machine.

    According to Philosopher Martha Nussbaum, objectification has the following characteristics:

    1. Instrumentality – if the thing is treated as a tool for one’s own purposes;
    2. Denial of autonomy – if the thing is treated as if lacking in agency or self-determination;
    3. Inertness – if the thing is treated as if lacking in agency;
    4. Ownership – if the thing is treated as if owned by another;
    5. Fungibility – if the thing is treated as if interchangeable;
    6. Violability – if the thing is treated as if permissible to damage or destroy;
    7. Denial of subjectivity – if the thing is treated as if there is no need to show concern for the ‘object’s’ feelings and experiences.

    Let it be known that I have never advocated that telling a person they are ugly/gross isn’t objectification. I’ve been saying that thinking someone is gross/ugly isn’t. Saying those things to the person in question, however, is an example of #7 on the list.

    Viewing or using a man as an ATM is an example of #1, not to mention #2 and #4. Viewing non-virginal women as “used” is an example of #1 and #2.

  • Lokland

    Question from the STEM guy.

    The chick in the vid from the last thread.

    Was she “objectifying” that tree?

    Technically it shouldn’t be possible but if I were that tree I’d probably need counseling.

  • Charm

    Well, I hate coming late to the party.

    Could someone tell me what ATM means?

    Re college relationships

    Reasons I didn’t date more:

    1. Worked 25+ hours per week while studying full time so dating would have compounded my time and I prefer a fair amount of alone time to recharge.

    2. I didn’t want to be tied to someone permanently as I knew that I would be moving abroad after college

    3. I honestly didn’t meet too many people I’d have a connection with and didn’t actively seek it out.

    Im not gonna say I was being a good student either. I surely wasn’t. More like a mediocre one.

    If, in the act of having sex, your only real concern is your sexual pleasure, then you’re “using” your sex partner.

    I agree with this. I couldn’t imagine only wanting someone for sex. It wouldn’t be a pleasurable experience in the least. I also couldn’t imagine allowing someone to use me for just pleasure. Its oh so cheap.

  • Charm

    Technically it shouldn’t be possible but if I were that tree I’d probably need counseling.

    Lol, and a hot shower.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    Haha. Well, she’s technically not objectifying the tree because the tree is not sentient.

    If trees had the capability of rational thought and consciousness, she would be objectifying the tree.

    Either way, I do feel bad for it.

    @ Charm

    ATM stands for automated teller machine

    If, in the act of having sex, your only real concern is your sexual pleasure, then you’re “using” your sex partner.

    Yes, that would be an instance of objectifying a sexual partner. The question is, how often does this happen? Rape is another instance of objectification. I’m still trying to figure out whether having sex with a corpse/necrophilia is objectification or not.

  • Charm

    ATM stands for automated teller machine

    Awwwww. I thought it was some new hip acronym that someone here created that I could steal and use on other websites and pass it off as my own. I thought an actual ATM was too literal.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    hinking someone is ugly/gross is not objectification. Humans are capable of being gross/ugly. If you don’t think that is the case, the point is moot.

    Human’s are capable of being ugly or gross in relation to other people. Human’s are also capable of dispensing $20 bills to other people. (Referring to a person an “ATM” is just a figure of speech.) These are both “possible” things.

    If you run across a guy and dismiss him because he’s ugly, then you’ve committed #’s 1 and 7.

    1. You’ve judged him in terms of your purposes (“ugly” pretty much means “it doesn’t please me to look at that.”)

    7. Since you’ve dismissed him due to his ugliness, you’ve failed to show any concern for the subject’s feelings and experiences. The conclusion of “ugly” closes the book on the guy.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yes, that would be an instance of objectifying a sexual partner. The question is, how often does this happen?

    I would say that this happens every time someone has NSA sex.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    Let’s try this one more time.

    Human’s are also capable of dispensing $20 bills to other people. (Referring to a person an “ATM” is just a figure of speech.) These are both “possible” things.

    Viewing someone and treating someone as an ATM is objectification. If someone intentionally uses someone else solely for their money, they are using them as an ATM, disregarding their humanity, and objectifying them.

    If you run across a guy and dismiss him because he’s ugly, then you’ve committed #’s 1 and 7.

    1. You’ve judged him in terms of your purposes (“ugly” pretty much means “it doesn’t please me to look at that.”)

    7. Since you’ve dismissed him due to his ugliness, you’ve failed to show any concern for the subject’s feelings and experiences. The conclusion of “ugly” closes the book on the guy.

    Oy vey.

    1. How can I use an ugly person as a tool if my purpose/goal is to date an attractive person? How could I use them? They wouldn’t serve my purpose, therefore negating any desire to use them as a tool. It’s not an example of #1.

    2. What person in their right mind would tell someone that the reason they are being rejected is because they are ugly? I always show concern for the person’s feelings/experiences by letting them down easy. I don’t even know why you attempted your explanation for #7.

    It’s funny, because you were the one earlier in the thread who said that we shouldn’t bother trying to explain this to one another. We won’t agree, however either one of us spins it.

  • Male Perspective

    I don’t know about you people, but when I have sex with someone, I’m not the only one getting pleasure out of it. Its an equal exchange. Share, don’t use.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    1. How can I use an ugly person as a tool if my purpose/goal is to date an attractive person? How could I use them? They wouldn’t serve my purpose, therefore negating any desire to use them as a tool. It’s not an example of #1.

    You’re treating the person as a tool because you’re judging them in terms of your own purposes. You’re not “using” the person as a tool; you’re evaluating the person in terms of your purposes and concluding that he’s “useless.”

    2. What person in their right mind would tell someone that the reason they are being rejected is because they are ugly? I always show concern for the person’s feelings/experiences by letting them down easy. I don’t even know why you attempted your explanation for #7.

    Because #7 still holds if you don’t tell the guy why you’re rejecting him. The fact still remains that you’re thinking of him solely in terms of his “use” (or, in this case, uselessness). You are failing to consider who he is beyond his looks because you’ve already decided that you have no use for a person who has failed to meet your minimum physical requirements.

    It’s funny, because you were the one earlier in the thread who said that we shouldn’t bother trying to explain this to one another. We won’t agree, however either one of us spins it.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    I’m going to be proactive by apologizing to you in advance for the conversation that has spiraled out of control.

    @ Male Perspective

    I don’t know about you people, but when I have sex with someone, I’m not the only one getting pleasure out of it. Its an equal exchange. Share, don’t use.

    You’re not the only one, man. Sex has always been about give and take, for me.

  • Male Perspective

    Sassy sounds like my kind of gal ;) Smart, sensible and sexy. Maybe we could get together and “use” each other sometime? Eh.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    I don’t agree with you, and I don’t think your points are valid on this topic.

    I’ll just end up replying to your comments with all of the things I have said before.

    Let’s just agree to disagree and move it along.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    I’m cool with that. I’d rather not keep reading the same arguments over and over again anyway.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Male Perspective

    Sassy sounds like my kind of gal ;) Smart, sensible and sexy.

    I do what I can sir.

    Maybe we could get together and “use” each other sometime? Eh.

    I never use.

    Also, are you Canadian? That’s a mighty well placed “Eh” you have going on in that sentence. ;)

  • GudEnuf

    STEM != nerd

    Not all Arab nations have oil, and not all nerds have nerdy interests that translate well into the corporate world.

  • Dogsquat

    @JM and SayWhaat

    re: The Things They Carried

    For me, that book is like a Masamune katana or a P-51D Mustang – perfect and beautiful in form, but horrible in origin. I read it several years ago. Fucked me up for weeks. It is as close to The Truth about grunts as you can get in print.

  • Dogsquat

    @Sassy:

    “The guy in the Tim O’Brien story sounds like a fucking creeper. That’s not romantic to me. It’s obsessive, and a bit unnerving.”
    ________________________________

    I agree with you, but I’m compelled to explain.

    Lt Cross is an infantryman.

    His existence is utterly primitive. The only technology Lt Cross has is related to Death. He’s got a radio to communicate with allies. His weapons are the best an industrialized society can afford. His uniform is mass produced.

    For everything else, he is almost a caveman. He walks everywhere. He sleeps outdoors in the dirt. He doesn’t clock out at the end of the day or have weekends off. He doesn’t have a desk or a storage unit or even a shelf to put stuff on – everything he uses, including food and water – he must carry. He is cold or hot or hungry or thirsty most of the time. He is either tired or scared all the time. He hunts the most dangerous animal that’s ever appeared on Earth – man.

    If he is not excellent at his craft – quick, strong, brutal, and cunning – he will die in ways so horrendous you can’t even comprehend them. If someone nearby has a tiny lapse in judgement, he will die, alone and in excruciating pain. If he is unlucky, he will cease to exist.

    His whole purpose in life is to destroy other human beings he has never met.

    He does this month after month after month after month…..

    If he internalizes these things, or even thinks too deeply about them, he will cease to be something you’d recognize as human. On some level, he fears this and tries to stave off losing his humanity. To do so, he spends much of his time deep in fantasy – fantasies about things normal Western people take for granted.

    Some guy you went to high school with is doing this right now, as you read these words. He’s walking somewhere, eyes watchful for tripwires or freshly turned dirt or the glint from an enemy sniper’s scope. His ears are cocked for orders or incoming rounds. He is sweating, tired, angry, bored, and frustrated. His back and neck hurt. Yesterday, his buddy from bootcamp lost both testicles, feet, nose, and one eye to an IED.

    That is his environment.

    In his mind, though – what wondrous things in his mind!

    He is imagining crunching into a taco – the tang of cheddar, spicy beef so steamy-hot it almost hurts, fresh tomato slices falling out the other side. He is in a hotel room, early afternoon, on a soft bed with clean sheets. He watches the sun dapple across the naked, taut stomach of a young woman who loves him. He sees it so clearly he can count the few tiny, soft, peach-fuzz hairs below her navel that glow in the light. He smells the soap on her skin, the faint perfume on her collarbone. He presses his lips to the back of her neck, enjoying her hair brushing his face. He cups her breast in his hand.

    He plays scenes like that over and over and over in his mind. It gives him something to live for. It keeps him from becoming too alien. It is not romantic at all – merely necessary.

  • Anonymous

    Off-topic, but here’s something the hook-up SMP has made obsolete:

    “Love Letter Lost for 60 Years Finally Recovered,” by Eric Pfieffer, Yahoo! News, 2 Apr 2012
    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/love-letter-finally-delivered-60-years-first-written-165305864.html

    He proposed in it, they’re still married today.

    What have we lost?

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Dogs…an eloquent piece of writing in #119.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “It just makes me feel like chattel. The last thing I want is to be seen as an object. No one owns me.

    If you want an objectified woman, stick with prostitutes, strippers, and mail order brides. At least those women are paid to be objectified.”

    I thought one of the teachings of “game” is that even though women SAY they don’t want to be objectified, they actually do, but ONLY from a man they find attractive. I can tell you with full assurance that my SO greatly enjoys being objectified by me from time to time. So the issue here isn’t that Sassy doesn’t like being sexually objectified, but that she doesn’t like being sexually objectified in that manner from some random internet guy.

    Just trying to keep it real folks. ;)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Is it me, or is Sassy flirting back at a guy who just propositioned her for NSA sex?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Dogs…an eloquent piece of writing in #119.

    +1. Dogsquat uses vivid imagery like a pro, wielding it to evoke both coarseness and sensuality, then placing the two side-by-side, and by doing so, conjuring up the spectrum of possibilities inherent in the human.

    He’s also a master of tact.

  • El Marqués

    Reading Dogsquat’s comment it kind of dawned on me that the only socially accepted modern equivalent of a male rite of passage is serving your country in the army.

    Where I was born, it used to be compulsory, so I never thought that not doing it would be such a loss, but getting older and realizing its importance for “inner game”, I’d actually recommend the girls to screen for that for marriage purposes.

    Regarding the graph it’s the same old. Cats emulating dogs.

    For girls it only makes sense if the end point on the x-axis is at around 25. After that, the curve takes a steep dive.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Anon, people still write love letters today. They’re just often in email format instead of postal mail.

    Jesus Mahoney/Dogsquat, The Things They Carried was a massive tearjerker for me. I don’t think I could read it again. It was brutal and beautiful. Thanks for the passage and the elaboration on it, but ya’ll are trying to make me bawl at work.

    As an aside, I wish young folks didn’t have to go off to war that old people start. 18 is so young, but in the military it is normal. Just kids, teenagers, who should be full of life instead of experiencing so much death.

  • Herb

    @Male Perspective

    Ana, now these people are in their mid-late 30s. I think they’ve given up on marriage and kids and are just happy that someone still finds them desireable enough to live with.

    Hey, no getting personal…oh, you said mid-late 30s, not 40s…never mind.

    However, that last bit was something I was trying to get across in the last thread when people commented on dumping less than mostly optimal relationships. At some point, you’re happy to have any bit of being wanted.

    @Ramble

    In my experience, those guys that get the “last laugh” is with girls who are past their prime.

    Preach it Ramble. Studious gentleman, never settle for a wife over 30 at marriage and if you haven’t married at 40 move to STRs for sex and comfort. If you don’t get the fertility don’t pay for the infirmary.

  • Herb

    @Male Perspective

    Hey great idea. Why don’t guys who bombed out with girls in college return to same college once they’ve matured and come more into their own? Anyone here tried that? Results?

    Not directly, but kind of. I spent a year in college then nine in the Navy. When I went back to college in my late 20s several different coeds clearly expressed interest in me.

    Sadly, I’d made a poor marriage choice and was off the market. Looking back had I stayed smart and stayed single in the service not only would I not have reenlisted once, but I probably would have meant plenty of decent women about 5-6 years younger than me in college, wifed one up soon after, and be watching my oldest finishing high school instead of wandering the wastelands of 40 divorcedom.

    So, a good strategy for men might be to work 3-5 years, save for college (so you’re loanless), take some night classes here and there or self-study and CLEP out so you go back as a sophomore or even junior. Then you have some alpha type advantages: proven ability to command resources, age and experience relative to the frat boys, and so on.

  • Herb

    @Sassy

    It’s like checking the tread on the tires of a car. It’s fine to do that to a car, because it is an object. Saying that about a human female is an extreme case of objectification.

    Have you look at the list of requirements you have put up over time here at HUS for a guy to marry.

    I had a shorter list in February looking to buy a car.

    Just sayin’.

    And, from my experience, yours is relatively short.

  • Herb

    @Charm

    Awwwww. I thought it was some new hip acronym that someone here created that I could steal and use on other websites and pass it off as my own. I thought an actual ATM was too literal.

    It’s not too literal. Sadly, a good variety of women see men as ATM.

    My ex-wife’s sister’s first question to me (looking back should have been a warning): “Do you buy my sister a lot of presents.”

    I could make a pretty strong case that NOW, when not viewing men as rapists, views them as ATMs based on their policy positions and actions regarding child support, visitation rights, custody distribution, abortion, and alimony.

  • Herb

    @Sassy

    1. How can I use an ugly person as a tool if my purpose/goal is to date an attractive person? How could I use them? They wouldn’t serve my purpose, therefore negating any desire to use them as a tool. It’s not an example of #1.

    “How can I use them as a tool?” is the same as saying “This tool does not serve my purpose”. So, you just evaluated them as tool. Besides, as you said, “They wouldn’t serve my purpose” which again is evaluating them not as a person with their own worth but in terms of how you can use them.

    As for you not being a feminist, you may claim otherwise but you’ve got the entitlement and even a bit of the female supremacist that I expect from them: men objectify, women can’t therefore I can’t being a grand example.

  • Sassy6519

    Is it me, or is Sassy flirting back at a guy who just propositioned her for NSA sex?

    I never agreed to it. I diverted the question away from the sex onto something else.

    It’s a little harmless verbal banter, nothing more and nothing less.

    Have you look at the list of requirements you have put up over time here at HUS for a guy to marry.

    I had a shorter list in February looking to buy a car.

    Just sayin’.

    And, from my experience, yours is relatively short.

    Like I have said before, I would have no problem if a guy told me he wanted to date a virgin or if he wanted a woman that was less sexually experienced. Those are two things that I am not. I understand that. I would have a qualm, however, with a man referring to me as “used”. I’ve explained why that is enough already.

  • Herb

    @Dogsquat

    He plays scenes like that over and over and over in his mind. It gives him something to live for. It keeps him from becoming too alien. It is not romantic at all – merely necessary.

    Although my service experience is different (less primitive but arguably more isolated and unnatural) I get you.

    However, you live in a world where not only do most of the people who benefit from the people who suffer not only don’t consider it but many think it is beneath them and hold those who do it contempt.

    I’m not surprised it was found creepy. However, finding it so reveals more about the judger than the judged.

  • Herb

    @El Marqués

    Reading Dogsquat’s comment it kind of dawned on me that the only socially accepted modern equivalent of a male rite of passage is serving your country in the army.

    Hey, now don’t leave out the Navy (and I guess our wholly owned subsidiary, the Marines) and I guess we could even add in the Puddle Pirates.

    The Air Farce, however, just doesn’t count ;)

  • J

    You under estimate how good it feels to get there first.
    AMOG of her life (assuming you stick around).

    Lokland, I really think you guys overestimate the importance of this to women–to the point that it makes you all feel bad unnecessarily.

    I was engaged my senior year of college and lost my virginity to my fiance. He was a very crazy and narcissitic guy, but I really was very sheltered before I met him and didn’t see it coming. Long story short, I broke off the engagement, which was painful and involved a lot of shame at the time. In retrospect however it was the best choice I could have made.

    A year later, he was married. A few years and two kids later, he was on his way to a divorce and attempted to get back with me. I refused. Another year later, he was on wife number two. Fast forward a few more years and a few more kids, and he is on his second divorce. Again, he tried to come back to me, Again, I refused. He is now married to wife number three, who looks nuts to me. I think this guy would be considered a hero to many in the ‘sphere, but I look at him as a dogded bullet. The notion of this guy as a husband or as the father of my kids is horrific to me. And, I know that his kids are pretty damaged young people.

    I still run into him occasionally. My sense is that he still desires me (Oh J, you never change…still beautiful, blah, blah, blah…), but I’m pretty glad I was smart enough not to become his first wife. He is far from the AMOG of my life and more like the dirty joke I was too young and naive to prevent life from playing on me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      I agree with you re “the AMOG of her life” concept. I just haven’t seen the Guy A and Guy B thing play out – anywhere. I don’t know a single woman who longs for the alpha that got away. They tend to leave such a trail of destruction, no one mourns them in the end. It’s like recalling Hurricane Katrina with fondness.

      My first and only alpha was my college bf, and we dated for three years. He was extremely dominant, a leader (president of his frat), a varsity athlete, and actually a decent guy. He never cheated on me, for example. But that was in the 70s. Today, he’d probably be a douche. Anyway, he was boring. Just not very bright, not curious about anything. He didn’t have a lot of empathy for other people, and that turned me off. He also wasn’t very ambitious – he was focused on “having fun now” rather than building anything for the future. I broke up with him out of boredom. It just wasn’t fun having a high status bf who had little to say for himself. In the end, his amazing body and sexual dominance lost their appeal. It was like dating a cardboard cutout. It’s ironic, because men always claim that women get bored with beta guys. But I have never been so bored as I was in a relationship with “pure alpha.” Once I left I never looked back, not once, and I never was tempted to see him again.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    As an aside, I wish young folks didn’t have to go off to war that old people start. 18 is so young, but in the military it is normal. Just kids, teenagers, who should be full of life instead of experiencing so much death.

    My ex-mother in law said to me at the beginning of the first Gulf War back in 91, “They all look so young.”

    I responded, “War is old men sending young men to settle their disputes”.

    Most people don’t take the time to think, but the typical ballistic missile submarine commander, a man who commands more total firepower than unleashed in some wars, is probably 38 at the oldest. The other two men who hold keys to those nuclear weapons are younger. The weapons officer may be under thirty if he’s moving up a bit ahead of his class. The majority of the enlisted men he commands are of an age with the same college girls this blog is aimed at.

    I went to college a bit before I joined and I still could have retired with a 50% base pay pension payable upon retirement before I was 40 (a thought very much in my mind on the 20th anniversary of my enlistment).

    War is decidedly a young man’s profession. What boggles the mind is that old men who one engaged it will send their sons off to do it again.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Herb

    Let’s look at the definition of instrumentality one more time.

    1. Instrumentality – if the thing is treated as a tool for one’s own purposes

    I wouldn’t use a man I didn’t find attractive as a tool for my own purposes. I wouldn’t use him. I think instrumentality is about actually using someone as a tool for a purpose without their knowledge or consent. It would be objectification, however, if I used an unattractive man to have access to one of his friends. That would be an example of #1 and #7. I have never condoned that sort of behavior though.

    Also, I have also never said that women can’t objectify men. I have been claiming the exact opposite, DURING THIS ENTIRE DISCUSSION, by saying that viewing men as ATMs is objectification. I even said, in an earlier post, that I have contempt for women who think that way of men.

    I’m starting to believe some people are reading what they want to read instead of actually reading what I have written.

  • Herb

    @J

    Lokland, I really think you guys overestimate the importance of this to women–to the point that it makes you all feel bad unnecessarily.

    Maybe he does, but he was talking about its importance to men, which women seem not to get.

    There are things that matter to men in selecting mates, after all. We don’t feel bad about it because of how you feel.

    J, please don’t take offense because this is only tangentially related to you, but this is a classic problem I see in American women. It’s not just about you. Men do have feelings, desires, and priorities of their own. Too often, articles about dating for women treat men like too many foreign policy experts treat foreign countries. They see them as a set of buttons that if pushed in the right order serve a woman’s specific purpose. Then when they learn the buttons have a mind and desire of their own they are confused (some are offended that the buttons don’t exist just for them, but I’ll give most the benefit of the doubt most days).

    Learning and accepting what is important to men is just as important to a successful LRT as men doing the same for women.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    You’re using “use” and “treat” interchangeably.

    Treat:

    1.
    to act or behave toward (a person) in some specified way: to treat someone with respect.
    2.
    to consider or regard in a specified way, and deal with accordingly: to treat a matter as unimportant.
    3.
    to deal with (a disease, patient, etc.) in order to relieve or cure.
    4.
    to deal with in speech or writing; discuss.
    5.
    to deal with, develop, or represent artistically, especially in some specified manner or style: to treat a theme realistically.

    See, “treat” doesn’t mean “use.” It could, in fact, mean “not use.”

  • Escoffier

    Herb, long ago the Navy and AF got into a major beef about the boomers. Bascially, the AF said, You can’t have an 05 in charge of all those warheads, it’s crazy, we sensibly give our ICBM squadrons to two-stars. So the navy upgraded the boomers to 06 commands even though the personnel on board didn’t really warrant it and it screwed up the promotion system in a lot of ways. That lasted less than 10 years as I recall.

    Kind of irrelevant in the end because they physically cannot launch those missiles at their own authority anyway. Unlike certain nuclear gravity bombs which, despite the Pentagon’s protestations, can be detonated by almost anyone.

    Sorry to go OT.

  • Herb

    @Sassy

    I think instrumentality is about actually using someone as a tool for a purpose without their knowledge or consent.

    If I look at a woman and evaluate her sexual appeal I’m routinely accused of objectifying them. Yet, I am in no way using them as a tool.

    Either looking at women, the most common example given of objectification, isn’t objectification or your hamster is up to speed.

    Or we’re back to female supremacy: men do it, it’s objectification. women do it, it’s just evaluating women.

    I’m starting to believe some people are reading what they want to read instead of actually reading what I have written.

    No, they are men who have done, with respect to women, exactly what you described and are both personally and in the general culture excoriated for objectifying women. For example, for just opining that a woman I knew who was considering getting a boob job would look better if she didn’t I got a five minute lecture at a party about how I just objectified women and should respect they can do what they want with their bodies.

    That is not an isolated incident for me or men in general.

    Now, re-evaluate how those men will see you saying “a man is ugly so I can’t be interested”. You’re acting on a judgment which just having for a man is objectification. So, if I act on it, it’s just objectification but if I have it isn’t?

    So, if I walk up and fondle a woman I’ve judged sexy it quits being objectification?

  • Herb

    @Escoffier

    So the navy upgraded the boomers to 06 commands even though the personnel on board didn’t really warrant it and it screwed up the promotion system in a lot of ways. That lasted less than 10 years as I recall.

    The Tridents are still 06 boats. The solution was Tridents, unlike the earlier boomers, aren’t first commands. Everyone driving a Trident has prior fast boat command (or back in the late 80s/early 90s boomer commands) but when I was on the Carver our CO was just an 05.

  • Herb

    So, if I act on it, it’s just objectification but if I have it isn’t?

    That should read: “So if I act onit, it’s not objectification but if I haven’t it is?”

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    I don’t agree with you, and I thought you and I were no longer going to discuss this. That’s what you agreed to.

    @ Herb

    If I look at a woman and evaluate her sexual appeal I’m routinely accused of objectifying them. Yet, I am in no way using them as a tool.

    Either looking at women, the most common example given of objectification, isn’t objectification or your hamster is up to speed.

    I don’t think evaluating a woman’s sexual appeal is objectification. I never said I did. The women who freaked out at you about it are off the mark. I don’t agree with those women.

    No, they are men who have done, with respect to women, exactly what you described and are both personally and in the general culture excoriated for objectifying women. For example, for just opining that a woman I knew who was considering getting a boob job would look better if she didn’t I got a five minute lecture at a party about how I just objectified women and should respect they can do what they want with their bodies.

    That is not an isolated incident for me or men in general.

    Now, re-evaluate how those men will see you saying “a man is ugly so I can’t be interested”. You’re acting on a judgment which just having for a man is objectification. So, if I act on it, it’s just objectification but if I have it isn’t?

    So, if I walk up and fondle a woman I’ve judged sexy it quits being objectification?

    I’m sorry you have gone through those experiences. I don’t agree with the women who think that way. I don’t share their views.

    Considering the attractiveness of women, or men, is not objectification. I would say it is objectification though to fondle a random woman. You would be using her body without her consent (#1 and #2). If she agreed to have you fondle her, however, it is no longer objectification.

    One would be sexual assault (objectification), and the other would not be.

  • Herb

    @Sassy

    To help you understand why men think you considering a man ugly or gross is objectifying.

    Feminist scholars say that the objectification of women involves the act of disregarding the personal and intellectual abilities and capabilities of a female; and reducing a woman’s worth or role in society to that of an instrument for the sexual pleasure that she can produce in the mind of another.[2][3] Although opinions differ as to which situations are objectionable, some feminists see objectification of women taking place in the sexually oriented depictions of women in advertising and media, women being portrayed as weak or submissive through pornography, images in more mainstream media such as advertising and art, stripping and prostitution, men brazenly evaluating or judging women sexually or aesthetically in public spaces, and the presumed need for cosmetic surgery, particularly breast enlargement and labiaplasty.

    Every man who has been to sex ed in junior high, sexual harassment training at work, or freshman orientation at college (ie, pretty much all of us) has had that bolded part drilled into our head. It can even cost you your job.

    Yet doing the same to a man isn’t objectification?

  • J

    Thanks for qualifying your remarks, Herb. I lot of this stuff quickly escalates into something personal, so I appreciate your doing that.

    I do understand that men get something from being first and possibily are just wired that way. I had hoped to offer some some helpful information in saying that first isn’t necessarily best in a woman’s lifelong memory. I do hope that at least some men who may be reading will come to realize that any jealousy they may feel over their wife, gf, or SO’s first, is not necessarily realistic from the woman’s point of view. Honestly, I doubt that many women “imprint” on or pine away over their first, especially these days when first often happens outside a relationship. Even among women of my generation (I am roughly Susan’s age, so I missed the era of drunken hook-ups.), I’ve never heard a woman clain to be pining for her first.

  • Escoffier

    I don’t think that’s right. I had dinner with the captian of one about 1.5 years ago and he was a CDR. A quick google confirms that boomers are commanded by 05s. I don’t know exactly when that changed but I know that in the 1980s they were 06.

    Unless it changed back very recently.

  • Herb

    @Sassy

    I’m sorry you have gone through those experiences. I don’t agree with the women who think that way. I don’t share their views.

    You agreeing or not is irrelevant. That is currently the broad societal expectation and even if you disagree with it, unless you’re loudly defending men when they get excoriated for it (did you speak up about it being silly at freshman orientation for example) you can expect to be held to the same standard.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    I don’t agree with you, and I thought you and I were no longer going to discuss this. That’s what you agreed to.

    You don’t have to respond. I’m just finding the topic interesting. And what don’t you agree with, the meaning of “treat”?

    Until a person stops thinking of another in terms of his desirability, that person is “objectifying” the other.

  • Herb

    @Escoffier: I could be out of date then as I left the fleet in 1995. At that time boomers (which are not Tridents but are all out of the feet at this point…even the oldest Tridents aren’t SSBNs but SSGNs now) were 05 commands and Tridents were 06.

    I’m surprised anymore all subs aren’t 06 given how top heavy the Navy has gotten.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Herb

    You agreeing or not is irrelevant. That is currently the broad societal expectation and even if you disagree with it, unless you’re loudly defending men when they get excoriated for it (did you speak up about it being silly at freshman orientation for example) you can expect to be held to the same standard.

    Who says that I don’t speak up about it? I have done that plenty of times during my lifetime.

    I have absolutely no problem with men discussing the attractiveness of women, or women discussing the attractiveness of men. I don’t consider it objectification. Some of my guy friends have talked about women in front of me, and I’m not bothered by it. I have never tried to stop them. I’ll usually throw in my 2 cents about the women in question as well.

    I’m sorry if the women you have encountered have flipped out over it. Once again, I don’t want to be lumped in with them because I don’t share their views.

    I don’t think evaluating the attractiveness of a human being is objectification.

    Not everyone agrees with the feminists, just as this fact was pointed out in this part of the quote:

    Although opinions differ as to which situations are objectionable…

    I don’t agree with feminists, or JM, who believe that judging a person’s attractiveness is objectification.

  • Herb

    @J

    No problem. That used to be a big sore point with me but I’ve come to release over time that it’s a case of what C. S Lewis meant when he said Every age has its own outlook. It is specially good at seeing certain truths and specially liable to make certain mistakes.. Our age has come to embody in many ways with respect to men the reverse of what feminists claim the prior age did with women: not having meaningful feelings or desires of their own.

    The end of hypergamy articles were a prime example of that. The idea that men will love being kitchen bitches was advanced by women who are proud of the fight to escape being the domestic partner. That men might not want what they rejected or that men might have desires of their own never seemed to cross their mind.

    So I tend to jump on it when I see, even if unintended. I realize your point was directed at something that routinely comes up here, the idea the women who have prior partners are settling if they marry any man after. I agree it is a bit insane in some readings (although not other..Susan can provide good stats on partner count making women bad marriage bets and if memory serves the cross over point is lower for women).

    Still, men don’t want it just for some statistical reason. That first position satisfies a need, just as being a provider as their domestic action does. Being 2nd may not be bad just as changing a diaper doesn’t rob him of satisfaction.

    However, when you don’t provide and just do diapers or are 15th (to pick a random number) needs aren’t going to be met. Women ignore those realities not just to the loss of men but to their own loss.

  • Escoffier

    Herb, of the remaining 18 Ohio class subs in the USN, 14 are still classfieid SSBN and carry Tridents. Four were “down converted” to SSGN in accordance with START obligations.

    One thing I hear my Navy buddies bitch about a lot is the “lack of platforms.” With 3,000, >5,000 if you count the wing.

    Isn’t this fun for the ladies!

  • Escoffier

    Ugh, dropped sentence, anyway it doesn’t matter.

  • Lokland

    @J

    Not one thing I said had to do with how the woman percieves him.
    Everything about being first being good comes from the male perspective. The womans perspective is unimportant.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J, @Lokland

      Not one thing I said had to do with how the woman percieves him.
      Everything about being first being good comes from the male perspective. The womans perspective is unimportant.

      That’s not really true, because Rollo for example, stirs up a lot of anxiety (heh) in guys with the Man A vs. Man B theory. J is saying it’s not a valid theory. So if men believe it, they would probably benefit from changing their perspective. Of course, you can still choose to be threatened, but you should at least be aware that the theory is bogus.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    At some point, you’re happy to have any bit of being wanted.
    We have a name for this in Spanish “Mi peor es nada” (My is worst getting nothing) but the ideal should be getting someone before you reach that stage. Funny enough this is like “self arranged marriage” for all the bitching about how unfair is for people to get into a permanent committed relationship with a person they are not in love with by their families” is interesting how in the end many people end up doing that just because they wasted their best years on other pursuits, at least with the early arranged marriages there would had been kids, just thinking out loud.

    Preach it Ramble. Studious gentleman, never settle for a wife over 30 at marriage and if you haven’t married at 40 move to STRs for sex and comfort. If you don’t get the fertility don’t pay for the infirmary.

    I really think is the reason marriage and kids are becoming “greedy” things that bearers do. If we have many people that lost their chance to get both they surely would like to look better than the people who actually got it right? Sour grapes and all that.

    I’m not surprised it was found creepy. However, finding it so reveals more about the judger than the judged.

    This was just one female commenter reaction. I didn’t found it creepy I can relate to holding out hope in order not to put a bullet in your brain or go insane. I think creepy is a first world word. I don’t remember ever thinking a man is creepy, he might be pushy or if he tries too hard after getting a clear no he might make me feel uncomfortable but creepy entails that if I don’t find him attractive as he is no woman will and I don’t believe that, YMMV.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Re the O’Brien passage:

      This was just one female commenter reaction. I didn’t found it creepy I can relate to holding out hope in order not to put a bullet in your brain or go insane. I think creepy is a first world word. I don’t remember ever thinking a man is creepy, he might be pushy or if he tries too hard after getting a clear no he might make me feel uncomfortable but creepy entails that if I don’t find him attractive as he is no woman will and I don’t believe that, YMMV.

      I second this. I didn’t find it creepy or obsessive in the least. I thought it was very touching how he was hopeful, and also how he was able to see beauty in his mind’s eye while stuck in a world gone so ugly. I don’t even see how carrying letters (10 oz. each!) from a woman you love, and know well, could be considered anything but heartfelt and good, if a little sad.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I don’t agree with feminists, or JM, who believe that judging a person’s attractiveness is objectification.

    Then you don’t agree with Nussbaum either.

    If you don’t see how deciding based on attraction how one is going to deal with a person constitutes using him “as a tool for one’s own purposes,” then there’s no getting through to you.

    Mind you, I’m not saying all objectification is bad. But if your treatment of a person is largely determined by your own ego-driven desires, then you have “objectified” that person.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Herb,

    I’m not surprised it was found creepy. However, finding it so reveals more about the judger than the judged.

    +1

  • Herb

    @Ana

    This was just one female commenter reaction. I didn’t found it creepy I can relate to holding out hope in order not to put a bullet in your brain or go insane.

    That was my point in saying it reveals more about the judger than the judge.

    That I wasn’t surprised was based on my experience with American born and raised women. YMMV.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    I agree with Nussbaum. What I don’t agree with is your interpretation of Nussbaum’s concept of instrumentality.

    How many more times are we going to circle around each other on this?

    Let’s just stop this, for real this time.

    You aren’t going to be able to change my opinion on the topic, and I won’t be able to change your opinion on the topic.

  • Escoffier

    “That men might not want what they rejected or that men might have desires of their own never seemed to cross their mind.”

    I have no doubt that this is true of the broad mass of men. Nonetheless, it’s interesting how so many men are able to tell themselves that being a “kept man” would be a great thing. Who wants to work if he doesn’t have to? If her money comes from a chain of liquor stores, that’s like winning the lottery!

    A lot of men seem to believe that they would want this but then if/when they get it, they find that they don’t like it at all.

    The flipside to that is all these career gals who think they want completely domesticated husbands and then they get one and they find they hold him in total contempt. There was a very long NY Mag piece about this recently, Manhattan uber-wenches who make tons of cash, who either marry slackers or whose husbands drop their careers, or else they keep at it but earn way less than wifey. The whole point of the piece was to show how almost none of these women–all of them feminists, of course–actually loved the guys any more. There were maybe two examples of marriages that were “working” in any recognizable sense.

    But at least they had “found someone”! Future career gals may not even get that far.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Herb,

    I would think (or at least hope) that most American women wouldn’t find that creepy. My gf didn’t.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    That I wasn’t surprised was based on my experience with American born and raised women. YMMV.

    I also think we need to take in account that Sassy is really hot, a woman and not afraid to initiate contact with a man that she finds attractive all that makes less likely for her to be in a situation were the object of her affections was so out of reach that holding out to something, anything from him would be the last line towards wholeness and sanity. I’m sure women that had to add some ketchup to their feelings and eat them out can see this in a different way, YMMV.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy

    What I don’t agree with is your interpretation of Nussbaum’s concept of instrumentality.

    I’m not trying to change your opinion, I’m just exploring the concept. If your decisions are based on your attraction to a person, then you are thinking in terms of how that person can serve you. You’re evaluating that person based on whether or not he can serve as an instrument to satisfy your desires.

    It’s only when you can begin to see the world in terms of the other person’s needs and desires–and not just your own–that you are treating the person as a “subject”.

    Again, don’t feel the need to respond.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    If that’s what you think, so be it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    If that’s what you think, so be it.

    To borrow a favorite of yours: cool story, bro.

  • Cooper

    Ugh, I can’t believe I’m still frequenting this site. (and actually reading all the comments)
    I’m really starting to wonder whether it is serving me any good.

    Everytime I visit, I leave thinking that if I keep doing what I am, which I fear could describe it as “omega, or (worse),”-OffTheCuff#38 that I will actually find love before the end of my twenties.

    “I know it sucks to wait, I’m not saying it doesn’t. [by then] girls that age are literally starving for attention from men who will commit.” -Susan#25

    Although deep-down, I feel that is complete wrong.

    I feel that leaves me to “cry and think about the future and [my] glorious, slightly used wife.” -Lokland #40

    @Sassy
    And by “used,” IMO it refers to women who have done one of the following:
    “a) screws around (even with a few guys, casual or serious) or
    b) lets her SMV drop while she sits out.” -Lokland#75

    There’s no doubt that as I progress through my twenties my SMV will continue to rise. (along with my knowledge of Game)

    …. I just completely lost my train of thought.
    I just feel I ought to stay away.
    There’s no benifit for me to literally wait until women are “starving for attention from men who will commit.”
    Which is usually the consensus I leave with, after visiting HUS.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      There’s no benifit for me to literally wait until women are “starving for attention from men who will commit.”

      I need to clarify this. Most women are starving for attention from men who will commit. That includes the highest SMV women as well. This does not require “settling” of any kind on the part of the male.

      It is simply a recognition that men’s SMV increases as they age, while women’s decreases. Therefore, a man in his late 20s with some career advancement under his belt has a great deal of power in the marriage market. The last thing he should do is settle for an older woman or one who has ridden the carousel.

      This advice is very much in keeping with other’s perceptions of beta SMV changes over time, most notably Brendan. It also reflects the advice often served up here by males, which is that women should immediately seek out guys 5 years older when they get out of school if they hope to date men who are open to commitment.

  • Charm

    My ex-wife’s sister’s first question to me (looking back should have been a warning): “Do you buy my sister a lot of presents.”

    Princess alert!

    I never understood why women felt it was their right to receive presents from men. What have they done to deserve them? Simply having a vagina is too common to be considered special.

  • Charm

    @Cooper

    “starving for attention from men who will commit.”

    I don’t know the numbers, but this certainly isn’t all women. I’d ideally like to argue it isn’t most women…..but I know that’d probably be bullshit. Isn’t this really only applicable to women in your age range though? I mean if you’re a 30 year old male looking to settle down, you certainly wouldn’t be looking in 29-30 age range for those “desperate” women now would you? You’d be looking a lower. Are women in the 23-27 range all used up and jaded as well?

  • Herb

    @Charm

    Simply having a vagina is too common to be considered special.

    From your lips to most single women in America’s ears.

    The way so much of the media and many women act you’d think the things were magical.

    Great, now I have a filk song idea stuck in my head…thanks ;)

  • Cooper

    @Charm
    “I mean if you’re a 30 year old male looking to settle down, you certainly wouldn’t be looking in 29-30 age range for those “desperate” women now would you? You’d be looking a lower. Are women in the 23-27 range all used up and jaded as well?”

    I’m not exactly following. Are you suggesting I wait until I’m 30, until I can attract 23-27YOs?

  • Stingray

    JM,

    That short story is heart breaking. That man is clinging to what ever he must to get through his hell. I can’t fathom it, really.

  • J

    Not one thing I said had to do with how the woman percieves him.
    Everything about being first being good comes from the male perspective. The womans perspective is unimportant.

    OK, whatever. I shared something fairly personal with you guys hoping to save you a little pain. If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t. It’s not something I care to argue about.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Cooper – “I’m not exactly following. Are you suggesting I wait until I’m 30, until I can attract 23-27YOs?”

    I won’t speak for Charm, but my take on it is that indeed you will have a much easier time pulling 23-27YOs when you are 30 than when you are 23-27 yourself.

    Look, I’m 41 years old. My ex-wife was five years younger than me, and my current SO is eight years younger. I certainly didn’t intend that, and in fact my very first official GF was two years older, but since then they have all been younger by at least four years. The truth is, most women my age just don’t seem to be interested in me much. My experience is far from extensive, so don’t take this as written in stone, but I think in general once a woman gets past 21 and/or decides to “settle down”, she starts looking at men her age and older as candidates, probably putting a little extra weight on the guys a few years older. For starters, those men tend to be a bit more established in terms of career, living situation, maturity, etc. Second, it satisfies some of the semi-hypergamous desires they have since an older man will probably have better status than her. And, there is probably a little bit of “dad” complex in there, especially for women that want to be “lead” (and it seems that most do to some extent) as an older man will likely demonstrate some authority and dominance with her.

    All that being said, don’t “wait” until you are 30. Just get out there and mix it up. Anything over 18 is legal, just don’t expect a great deal of commitment from these young women, and be pleasantly surprised if you find it. And I’m not saying you have to bang them, but I’m not saying you shouldn’t. That is something only you can decide for yourself, but being here, as much as it may depress you, is also giving you the information you need to make those decisions for yourself. The truth is often ugly, but it is folly to base anything on lies.

  • Charm

    @Herb

    There is this shirt that says “I have the pussy, so I make the rules”. It makes me lol so hard because so does that woman, and that woman, and that woman over there. Only 100% of biological females have a vagina. Whenever women view their vaginas as their biggest trump card I laugh at them because thats just sad. Thats really all they have to offer? If I was a guy, I’d be going the other way.

    I think this also ties into sex as well. One thing I’ve noticed about women who sleep around, is that they fancy themselves “better” than women who don’t because they are “adventurous and comfortable with their sexuality” and how men prefer them more then us sexually conservative girls. Having sex doesn’t make anyone special considering oh, 99% of the populations does it or will do it at some point in their lives.

    I want to laugh right in these womens faces. I think the reason they fancy themselves so desirable by all men because they have vaginas and because they put out, is because they are raised to believe that the only thing men ever wanted from women was sex. Sex! Sex! Sex! Not respect, not love, not devotion, not admiration, but sex. A lot of women in the US seem to think that if they can give a man sex then they are golden. Now women are wondering why men wont commit to just sex. I want to tell them, “If all you’re offering is sex, then that something they can get from any woman. And as you can see, thats what they’re all doing.”

  • Herb

    @Charm

    Whenever women view their vaginas as their biggest trump card I laugh at them because thats just sad. Thats really all they have to offer?

    Yes, and they’ve screwed up the SMP for the rest of you. Thinking all they have to offer is their vagina they offer it up for anything, even the little things their great grandmothers paid for with a kiss on the cheek or a perfume scented handkerchief.

    Then, having established that their vagina is worth, well, dinner at best they are surprised it can’t buy commitment.

    Meanwhile, men having learned either directly or by watching that the going rate for a vagina is dinner balk at paying more (and get confused when most women won’t hand one over after a trip to Outback).

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – “OK, whatever. I shared something fairly personal with you guys hoping to save you a little pain. If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t. It’s not something I care to argue about”

    Don’t get upset J, I don’t think anyone is trying to put you down for being open and honest. But, you have to understand that the truth of it is: men aren’t concerned with what a woman is or is not thinking about when it comes to some of this stuff. I’ve been told, repeatedly to infinity, that most women simply don’t think about their past lovers and certainly in most cases never compare their current lovers to them. That doesn’t change my concerns about that in the least, because I can never KNOW beyond all doubt that this is true.

    Its the same with being “the first”. I can remember hearing older women talk about how a girl “never forgets her first love”, and how at the time it made me feel like any guy that shows up after him will be at a disadvantage. It may or may not be true, but that feeling stuck with me when I was young and impressionable, and I have never been able to fully shake it. Also, every single man I know that I have discussed this with feels a sense of wanting to be “the first” in some way for their mate. Of course being the first lover to a virgin satisfies that desire, but it isn’t realistic in today’s world. So, I find other ways to satisfy it. For instance, in my current relationship I am the first man my SO has worn shoes to bed for. That may not be as great an “accomplishment” as being her first lover, but at least I feel like I have something with her that NO other man can lay claim to. And, as sad as it to admit, it really is about that exactly. It bothers me to NO END that other men can “claim” to have already “had” my SO. Yes, I realize just how chauvinistic and piggish that sounds, but it is the ugly truth. I will always feel like I lost the race to be first, and that has absolutely NO bearing on how my SO feels or thinks.

    I assume it is a male thing, since I have yet to ever hear this from a woman…

  • Charm

    @Cooper

    No, thats not what I was suggesting. If the assumption was that men had to wait until later in life, and you felt like you might have to wait, then you should be fine dating women a few years younger than you. In an ideal world you’d be able to find a good woman now, but I don’t know how likely that is or if its even a great idea. All the guys I know that are married/in a relationship in our age range (you’re 23ish right) are dating women their same age. It seems that 23-27 range sucks for men, but is ideal for women.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I assume it is a male thing, since I have yet to ever hear this from a woman…

    I did wanted to date a male virgin but as I got older I decided that it was unrealistic for me so I gave it up. I wouldn’t want to be someone’s second wife for example or have a man that already had kids I wanted to be first mother to his children too, there are other first for me specially in bed department, interesting enough since my husband’s last girlfriend before me was an older twice divorcee and she still wouldn’t do certain stuff, nothing major just not a lot of variety an eagerness to please him. I’m happy about some things no other woman, the very few before me, did to my husband but me, YMMV.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Stingray,

    How’ve you been? I know, it’s heart breaking. Hope said it made her cry, and tbh, I feel like crying for Cross, too.

    Part of it is the writing, of course. O’Brien introduces the letter-reading as if it were a ritual:

    In the late afternoon, after a day’s march,he would dig his foxhole, wash his hands under a canteen, unwrap the letters, hold them with the tips of his fingers, and spend the last hour of light pretending.

    The kid is humping canteens around the jungle to drink–it’s his only source of hydration–and yet he’s washing his hands with that water before touching the letters. The whole thing takes on a kind of religious importance.

    The casual mentions of her (hoped for) virginity and the bizarre “read” of the picture in which he interprets her legs as the those of a virgin.

    And then the part about wishing he would’ve carried her to her room, tied her up, and touched her left knee all night? Talk about insight into the character: all that masculine sexual passion coupled with painfully innocent boyish naivete (her left knee for chrissakes!).

    I even feel like I want to protect Jimmy Cross. But I can’t–and that’s what’s so heart-breaking about the story.

  • Herb

    @Ana

    there are other first for me specially in bed department, interesting enough since my husband’s last girlfriend before me was an older twice divorcee and she still wouldn’t do certain stuff, nothing major just not a lot of variety an eagerness to please him.

    If more women got that instead of being resentful their husband/bf would like it if they occasionally wore lingerie thought of it as fun they’d be amazed at the things husbands would do for them elsewhere in life.

    I was going to make a smart assed remark about “he doesn’t worry about your body image” I realized it did give me a good opening to explain to J why her sharing didn’t achieve her goal.

    My ex-wife was always heavy until the end. She was a big girl (ie, clearly overweight) when we met. Yet I choose her. I, like just about every man in America, encouraged her to wear something sexy to bed. She did, in over a decade of dating and marriage, three times. She was sullen and resentful and made it clear it was all for me and I owed her each time.

    Part of her problem, not all but part, was body issues. They affected our sex life in a lot of ways (and, I didn’t learn until the end, affected her opinion of me). I never had a problem with her weight (nor, at the end, when she lost it, did it matter to me that she did). I married her for a whole host of reasons that had nothing to do with her weight except maybe that she was chesty (she had a pretty face until she got…bitter I guess and a great smile before anything thinks I’m claiming “nice personality” alone and calls BS).

    One mistake I realize now I made when body issues inferred with our sex life was to point it it didn’t matter to me. In saying that I was basically dismissing all the hell she’d suffered over it thinking me not caring should make it all go away. Now, over time with me it should have but I actually helped prevent that from happening from being cavalier about it.

    So, when several men describe how something is important and valuable and your first sentence is “really, it doesn’t matter to women so why should you care” it has the same effect as me telling my ex-wife that she body image issues shouldn’t matter because I loved her.

  • Cooper

    @Ted

    Thanks for the good response!

    @Charm #178
    Exactly.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Anyway, the reason I quoted The Things They Carried was that Sue mentioned that guys wanting to “get there first” was a sort of petulance on their part. Of course, Cross’s need to believe he would one day “get there first” is greatly exaggerated by the fact that he’s living in a tropical hell, but I don’t think it’s petulant at all.

    Traditionally, men have gone out into the world and hunted, fought, worked their asses off building the world. And I think they probably wanted to come home to women who they knew were theirs and theirs alone. They wanted to go to their women to get away from the world. They wanted someone who would bond solidly to them, a soft place to fall, a special sanctuary, etc…

    It may not be realistic in most cases, but I don’t think it’s petulant.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It may not be realistic in most cases, but I don’t think it’s petulant.

      OK, I’ll weigh in on the use of the phrase “slightly used.”

      I don’t care for the term simply because it describes a depreciated asset. It’s worth less than it once was, because someone drove it off the lot and took a ride. In my view, the choice of language reflects a bruised male ego, and does reflect a certain petulance. In the case of Jimmy Cross, petulance was not implied, because he did not view the girl as a depreciable asset or express resentment along with his uncertainty of her sexual state.

      It would be like watching a man cry and then deciding he is damaged goods.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “And, there is probably a little bit of “dad” complex in there, especially for women that want to be “lead” (and it seems that most do to some extent) as an older man will likely demonstrate some authority and dominance with her.”

    ROFL Lead=led

    I’m looking over my posts today and I have made a ton of grammatical errors. I’m glad at least I got my ideas across using TO instead of TOO and such. I do much better speaking than writing for this reason exactly. I have a pretty decent vocabulary, but I suck at spelling and general grammar.

  • Stingray

    JM,

    Been good. Thanks for asking.

    And then the part about wishing he would’ve carried her to her room, tied her up, and touched her left knee all night? Talk about insight into the character: all that masculine sexual passion coupled with painfully innocent boyish naivete (her left knee for chrissakes!).

    Not only that, but it shows that he is beginning to lose his mind a bit, I think. He knows damn well that he would do a lot more than just touch her left knee, but he can’t or won’t allow himself to think beyond that because it would destroy her innocence for him. I think the thought her being a virgin is helping him get through this. It is helping him retain much of his sanity as well.

    Heh, I’m saying all of this having only read what you posted. I haven’t read the whole story.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Herb
    Interesting. I have no idea why my husband ex was like that. She is not overweight my guess was that she liked just certain things on bed and went for that only instead of trying to adapt to other things my hubby might like. Dunno I’m speculating. I really can’t complain though, her lost was my gain after all.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    but he can’t or won’t allow himself to think beyond that because it would destroy her innocence for him.

    Yea, that makes sense, too. I didn’t even think about it that way.

    But yes, the thought of her being a virgin is definitely helping him to get through the war.

  • Charm

    @Herb

    There are women who apparently only go on dating sites so that they can get free dinners out of it. If I were a man, I don’t think I’d ever commit to a woman who used her sexuality to get food at a nice restaurant. Thing is, these women arent even ashamed of this behavior. That “Im getting mine” attitude carries over to their late 20′s (when their value starts to plummet) and they wonder why the line of potential males has thinned considerably…and then the attitude changes to the “men are intimidated by a strong woman that goes after what she wants”. Ick

  • J

    I’m not exactly angry or upset, Ted. I just see that my efforts didn’t have the intended effect, so I’m not going to pour in more ineffective effort. If you guys want to feel things that just make you unhappy in the longrun, and I can’t stop that, well then, there’s nothing I can do. In say that with more sadness than anything else.

    Herb, I think it’s unfortunate that your wife couldn’t accept that her weight problem didn’t affect your desire for her. There’s a lot of societal programming that makes life hard for heavy girls. I went through a period where I thought my “post-baby body” would not appeal to my husband. I eventually accepted that it did. We are both happier because I was able to get over that hump. Sometimes, you have to make your own happiness.

  • Herb

    @Charm

    There are women who apparently only go on dating sites so that they can get free dinners out of it. If I were a man, I don’t think I’d ever commit to a woman who used her sexuality to get food at a nice restaurant.

    Ashamed? They brag about it (http://www.themarysue.com/woman-used-match-com-for-free-dinners/).

    Early JM mentioned men have to believe what women say about their past. Men also have to believe they’re not just a dinner ticket. I think that’s where a lot of “sex by the third date” attitude comes from. Sure, the article I pointed to isn’t friendly to the woman in question but it’s unfriendly because of what she does to other women not to men. Articles unfriendly to PUAs in the media are about what they do to men.

    So men know, women don’t police each other about how they treat men (think of it as failing to whore shame or shrew shame instead of slut shame) and thus know they have only a women’s word they are different (hence the NAWALT joke in the manosphere). Men want actions/proof.

    I think that is something a lot of Susan’s readers could learn and then figure out their own forms of proof and deploy them before the sex demand on date N. For date two cook him dinner, maybe. I don’t know, be creative ladies.

    But I think you can avoid the sex by date N demand by being proactive with alternate proof you’re not doing LJBF to get dinner or something.

    That’s twice I’ve tried the direct advise route…once more and I have to maintain a list.

  • Charm

    I wouldn’t want to be someone’s second wife for example or have a man that already had kids I wanted to be first mother to his children too

    +1

    But he should also be a man who has always been relationship minded. Reformed players or pua’s or gamers can keep it movin’.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    But he should also be a man who has always been relationship minded.

    Of course, I didn’t though I needed to say it. I never dated a man that I knew was trying to break the record Guinness of most pussy accumulated in a lifetime, my husband never even had a ONS the idea of having sex with a stranger is not arousing for him. Totally my type of man.

  • Alias

    Cooper:
    “And by “used,” IMO it refers to women who have done one of the following:
    “a) screws around (even with a few guys, casual or serious) or
    b) lets her SMV drop while she sits out.” -Lokland#75″
    ———-
    Really?
    I always thought “used” referred to:
    c) had high hopes to entice that bad boy with sex but got p & d-ed

  • Stingray

    It may not be realistic in most cases, but I don’t think it’s petulant

    It just goes back to men wanting a low number count, right? The low number count seems to be a lax version of demanding a woman be a virgin as things used to be not too long ago. Part of a man wants to be assured that his woman is his and that her heart pines for him and him alone.

  • J

    I think that is something a lot of Susan’s readers could learn and then figure out their own forms of proof and deploy them before the sex demand on date N. For date two cook him dinner, maybe. I don’t know, be creative ladies.

    The subject has come up before with the consensus that first dates should be cheap dates that feature a lot of conversation/interaction. I myself have suggested parks, zoos, and museums as great first date venues that allow people to get to know each other in a safe, low investment way. Cooking dinner for two is tricky because it means having the guy alone in your apartment. That often telegraphs a desire for sex.

    Incidentally, I have told my “banana cream pie” story here before, but here it is again. When we were dating, my DH mentioned that he loved banan cream pie. I made him one and brought it over to his house. He was thrilled to have it and immediately cut himself a piece, offering me one. I refused, telling him about how I almost chocked to death on a banana as a kid and how the mere smell of them makes me sick. Then I assured him that I hadn’t been sick on the pie. ;-) Needless to say, he was quite flattered to have gotten the pie–you know, before I actually surrender the other pie.

  • Herb

    @J re: pie story

    Precisely….

    I realize cooking dinner for two is tricky when trying to avoid sex which is why I said get creative. Men have set their form of proof (sex) but that doesn’t mean women can’t find others which then also act as screening.

    As for first dates being light that’s fine in an age where the rules of dating didn’t resemble the rules of war. Sadly, things progress faster today and we need to adapt.

    Look at the article I linked…five was considered the limit on the female p&d (scarf and dump?) so a man will want proof before then. He wants inside her ID3 loop (or OODA is what I think they call it now) to keep the military mindset.

  • Alias

    charm
    “because they put out, is because they are raised to believe that the only thing men ever wanted from women was sex.”
    ————
    I might be confusing posters, but I think it may have been SayWhaat who mentioned on another thread that her grandmother told her (paraphrasing): that men do pursue women for sex, but that this was their way of evaluating if the women were “good girls” or “bad girls.”
    That’s the message I was also given.
    In this way, good men pursuing women for sex isn’t seen as perverse.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    It just goes back to men wanting a low number count, right? The low number count seems to be a lax version of demanding a woman be a virgin as things used to be not too long ago. Part of a man wants to be assured that his woman is his and that her heart pines for him and him alone.

    Right. In prehistoric times, people coupled up much younger than they do now. So the “relationship” type partner would’ve been a virgin. And men who went dipping into other guys’ pots were risking death.

    I recognize that the “virginity” thing is for the most part unrealistic in our society, but I don’t think it’s fair to call that desire petulant. It’s probably hard-wired into us. Most people accept the best they can get under the circumstances, but I think many guys are just “built” to want a virgin.

  • Ramble

    But he should also be a man who has always been relationship minded.

    So, any casual sex in a man’s history would disqualify him?

  • Charm

    @Herb

    This is why Im not comfortable with going on formal dates with someone until its established that there is a definite mutual interest. Having to shell out money to “get to know” someone seems a bit ridiculous. I’d rather get to know someone through conversations. But conversing seems to be a lost art. Without the flashing lights and blaring music of a club to drown out a real conversation or the impersonal text message, interaction between people would probably cease to exist. I prefer people of substance and in order to access said substance, Id have to spend some time talking to you face to face. A few hours over coffee or a drink at a quiet bar would be all I needed to decide if I liked a person enough to pursue more with them. Formal dates are doing waaaay too much for me.

  • Ramble

    Part of a man wants to be assured that his woman is his and that her heart pines for him and him alone.

    Also, if we are looking back, if a man had sex with a virgin, stayed attached at the hip to her afterwards, and soon she bore a child, he could be confident that it was his.

  • Herb

    @Ramble

    So, any casual sex in a man’s history would disqualify him?

    You’re in the wrong thread…we did that last month :)

  • Stingray

    Ramble, good point.

  • J

    I read the article, Herb and clearly the girl and her friends who emulated her were users. However, if you don’t like the game, refuse to play it.

    Playing it is a no-win situation. When when you think you’ve won, you won’t like the prize (a girl who puts out on the third date). Eventually, if you suggest a different game to enough women, you’ll met one who is just as sick of business as usual as you are. In fact, given when we know about pluralistic ignorance, I would guess that women who are tired of this stuff aren’t as rare as one might think.

    Although this SMP is different from the one I experienced, things weren’t exactly sweetness and light in the 80s. The bar scene was well entrenched. Despite the fact that DH and I actually did meet in a bar (I was attending a b’day party for a friend of a friend.), things quickly moved out of the bar into the light of day to the park, the zoo, etc. because we were both seriously looking to get to know someone. If a woman rejects an offer to just hang out, then she’s not interested in you, Move on.

    I used to tell men that I was “cheap but not easy.” That’s what I’d advise a man to look for.

    Gotta go make a snack for my son.

  • http://T SayWhaat

    For all we talk about how feminism hasn’t changed the biological double-standard, it sure has done a terrific job of convincing men that they don’t want a virgin. Virginal, maybe, but most certainly not a virgin.

    And I don’t like to be referred to as a fucking “pot”, JM. Talk about objectification!

  • Alias

    Anacaona:
    “I did wanted to date a male virgin but as I got older I decided that it was unrealistic for me so I gave it up.”
    ———
    > I believe that that’s why many women don’t ask about a man’s sexual history because they believe that a man with none/few sexual experiences is a unicorn.
    Why would they think that;
    -If men are pigs and only after sex, then how can they possibly remain virgins/inexperienced.
    - Men exaggerate their sexual history because otherwise they are shamed.

    *************************
    ” I wouldn’t want to be someone’s second wife for example or have a man that already had kids I wanted to be first mother to his children too”
    ————–
    > Agreed. If I was going into it with no previous marriages, crazy breakups or kids, I wasn’t going to welcome all of the extra drama.

  • Alias

    SayWhaat,
    was it your grandmother who said something about men testing women to see if they’re good or bad girls by escalating, or am I confusing you with another poster?

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – “I’m not exactly angry or upset, Ted. I just see that my efforts didn’t have the intended effect, so I’m not going to pour in more ineffective effort. ”

    Fair enough. I honestly think it’s something most women can’t understand, mostly because it has some roots in the male desire to “conquer and explore”, and women in general do not like to be seen in that light. It isn’t something I personally fret over daily, but there was a period of time in my current relationship where it bothered me endlessly, and I had to work through it. Some guys here like Tom don’t seem to have any issue with it at all, but I know enough men that do to believe that in this case I am not the outlier.

    It probably has some element of male competition too, because if it didn’t then the whole “laying claim” piece wouldn’t be part of it.

  • Alias

    SayWhaat
    “For all we talk about how feminism hasn’t changed the biological double-standard, it sure has done a terrific job of convincing men that they don’t want a virgin. Virginal, maybe, but most certainly not a virgin.”

    You must’ve missed the memo that said “virgins are prudes” “promiscuous girls are better in bed”.
    Promiscuous girls must’ve been virgins at some point or were they born promiscuous?

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I believe that that’s why many women don’t ask about a man’s sexual history because they believe that a man with none/few sexual experiences is a unicorn.
    Why would they think that;
    -If men are pigs and only after sex, then how can they possibly remain virgins/inexperienced.
    - Men exaggerate their sexual history because otherwise they are shamed.

    This was not my reasons. I just though that given that I liked science minded men they would have no reason to wait for marriage given that is mostly a religious requisite and I knew men with no religious background have little reason to wait so why would they? It was a trade off I could pick a religious man but I have issues with religion (like the way they don’t respect science and other theological complications) or pick a man more based on reality so I picked the later and adjusted the sexual experience accordingly.

  • Alias

    Anacaona:
    “This was not my reasons.”
    ———
    Women expect (not to be confused with “demand”) that men will have had experience.

    You do bring up some valid reasons.
    It’s natural to think that a non-religious guy, an older guy, etc. isn’t going to be a virgin.
    I meant, generally speaking, most women believe that inexperienced men don’t exist and if they do there must be something wrong with them. It’s one reason why chaste/low# women avoid asking about men’s sexual histories, especially when they’re in an environment where men are under control and not feral.

  • http://T SayWhaat

    Alias, that was Warm Woman’s grandmother.

  • Alias

    Agh, clicked submit too soon.

    Anacaona,
    What I was saying is that when people hear “men are pigs” all of their life, the corollary becomes;
    - men think all women are innocent
    - and women think all men are guilty
    Hence, many men are shocked that women can be promiscuous
    and
    many women are shocked that men can be virgins/low #.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Alias
    I asked my husband sexual history long before things got too serious if he would had been a virgin I would had been thrilled, I wouldn’t had think there is something wrong with him at all, but it was not a deal breaker that he was not. Me loves a virgin man Team Edward remember? ;)

  • http://T SayWhaat

    Alias,

    The last time I heard a guy talk about how he didn’t want to be with a virgin, I had to stop myself from snarkily replying, “weren’t you a virgin once? Oh wait, you were literally born with your P in V. My bad.”

  • Charm

    @Ramble

    No, not any. I didn’t mean to imply people are perfect or anything and that a couple ruins you forever. But how many times a person needs to have casual sex to determine its “not for them” says something about the person. A couple of times is understandable, but 20 ONSs? Not so much.

  • Charm

    @Ramble

    I’d also like to add:

    I don’t need to have casual sex to know its not for me. Just like I never needed to get blackout drunk to realize I don’t like losing gaps of time. So, while I understand some people have to do it before they learn it, I’d ideally like to avoid that kind of person. Its not my thing.

  • Alias

    Anacaona:
    “I asked my husband sexual history long before things got too serious if he would had been a virgin I would had been thrilled, I wouldn’t had think there is something wrong with him at all, but it was not a deal breaker that he was not. Me loves a virgin man Team Edward remember?”
    ——–
    Yes.
    That’s because you’re not coming from a culture that thinks promiscuity is a phase everyone must go through in their youth before settling down.
    (Not that everyone follows this script but this culture pushes it.)
    In Latin-American culture, you’re usually asked early on to pick one team, especially if you’re a woman.

  • Alias

    P.S.- Anacaona
    I take that back…
    You were only asked (it’s changing) to pick one team if you’re a woman.
    Men played the field and then got the chaste girl (but those days are over.)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    In Latin-American culture, you’re usually asked early on to pick one team, especially if you’re a woman.

    This is probably the most succinct explanation of how sexuality worked back in the day I came of age in Latin America, I wish I could say it myself.
    This idea of flux “slut when young wife when older” was alien to us in fact any girl that became a slut was really the best preacher of keeping your legs shot she used to tell us how us got invited to walk in the parks and ice cream dates while all she got was rum and dirty motel rooms but it was too late to turn back so we shouldn’t really go that way unless the need for sex from different men was unbearable. You picked early on according to what works for you and then let men decide. Virgin or slut, wife or mistress. I mean there are men that go from sluts to be made an honest woman by marrying then and there were mistress that benched to become wives and got it but it was always the man’s choice after the woman picked her sexuality and worked hard to show she could do more. Things started slowly to change and nowadays there is a huge class division upper and middle class hoping to go up try to be “selective or virgin” while everyone else is in a ghetto mess of sex for fun, money, socialization, boringness… yes there is more freedom to do whatever you want to but to what cost?

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Men played the field and then got the chaste girl (but those days are over.)

    I will say that there was the expectation of catholic men to be chaste as well but it was one of the things the boys ignored once out of mass and that no one in society pressured them to do so boys had “token” virginity talks while women had everyone expecting and pressuring them to keep their legs shut. And given the consequences or not doing so were fast and severe for women while very few women actually enforced the virginity clause for their future husbands, women were easier went along with it.

  • Alias

    charm:
    “So, while I understand some people have to do it before they learn it, I’d ideally like to avoid that kind of person.”
    ———
    smart move

  • Alias

    Anacaona:
    “This is probably the most succinct explanation of how sexuality worked back in the day I came of age in Latin America,”
    ——-
    > In Europe too and I’m sure in other parts of the world, but slowly dying.
    Some might rejoice of this fact, but I was hoping both genders would’ve been held equally accountable.

    Ana:
    “Things started slowly to change and nowadays there is a huge class division upper and middle class hoping to go up try to be “selective or virgin” while everyone else is in a ghetto mess of sex for fun, money, socialization, boringness… yes there is more freedom to do whatever you want to but to what cost?”
    ———
    > Yeah, it’s divided by class. And class doesn’t always mean economic priviledge but often extends to being raised – with a father, in a religious home, or moving to a place where the majority of the people share the same values.
    Making the wrong choice in those countries, for most, means sentencing your children to a lifetime of membership to the lower class. And that’s not looking down one’s nose in a snooty way, but depriving your child/ren of a better life. One must remember that most Latin-American countries don’t have all of the social programs that the USA has.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Yeah, it’s divided by class. And class doesn’t always mean economic priviledge but often extends to being raised – with a father, in a religious home, or moving to a place where the majority of the people share the same values.

    Yeah I didn’t got it growing up because I though class was about money and location and I was raised poor with only the basics covered in a relatively poor place. But both of my parents descend from middle class family (Spaniard and British) and both of them wanted us to have a good education. Of course culture is important to notice that my father’s two sisters grew up attracted to low class culture and became sluts early on, forsaking going to school, while my mother’s male siblings followed similar path.There is a lot of personal choice in this issues. Interestingly enough although still poor both my parents are economically better off than any of their siblings, it took them decades of raising four kids and saving up but at this point on their lives staying and growing together worked a lot better than the alternatives, so it does work to keep yourself in certain level of restrain it seems like.

    Making the wrong choice in those countries, for most, means sentencing your children to a lifetime of membership to the lower class. And that’s not looking down one’s nose in a snooty way, but depriving your child/ren of a better life. One must remember that most Latin-American countries don’t have all of the social programs that the USA has.

    Indeed if you really cared for your future children you wanted to make sure they had a way to get up in life if they had the talent and being the town’s bike or having several children with different women before getting married was a sure sign of low class that regardless of your intelligence and education would keep you in the same place. But then welfare queens give birth to welfare princess don’t they? So its not like they care that much right?

  • Alias

    SayWhaat:
    “The last time I heard a guy talk about how he didn’t want to be with a virgin”
    ——–
    Those are code words for: “I’m not looking for anything serious”
    Always keep that in mind and remember their faces.

  • Alias

    Susan:
    “I don’t know a single woman who longs for the alpha that got away.”

    ROFL
    This was just as funny as Ted D’s
    : alphas saying “where have all the sluts gone?”
    LOL

  • Alias

    Ah ha ha ha ha

    Sorry, Susan, I was laughing so hard I forgot to include the context.

    Ted D on another thread wrote that he wasn’t convinced by women (something or other, honestly don’t remember right now) until all the alphas say “where have all the sluts gone?”

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    It really doesn’t matter if you are pining for your lost lovers or not. What matters is that a certain subset of women, open question how large, engaged in very vigorous carousel riding and got bored, and now are pursuing so-called “nice guys.”

    I do not want to hitch my wagon to that, and yes, we feel horribly used that we weren’t good enough for 5 minutes of alpha yet somehow good enough for 50 years of beta. We feel horribly scared that they will develop that taste for alpha again, especially since cheating and divorce isn’t rare or even frowned upon. Most of us wonder if she is fully committed to us, and the evidence we have suggests that, no, she isn’t, her mate-bonding potential is damaged from even one prior partner, let alone twenty.

    Perhaps the advice of “look for one who didn’t ride the carousel” would work, if it were actually common knowledge. Women can lie. Women’s friends can lie. And a lot of us are beta because we can’t read body language very well, whereas a post-grad woman will have been practicing this for 10+ years.

    Dismissing our desires and fears will get you exactly nowhere. Which is…well…what most women do. If you want to build consensus, you have to understand the other party and their emotions and interests.

    Should also add the cautionary tale that beta does not mean nice.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Should add that I am not insulting you personally, Susan. It should go without saying that NAWALT and you’re in that group ;)

    Would also like to add that I’ve never heard either a man or a woman suggest something good coming from a man crying. Does someone hear have stories otherwise?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Makes sense. I think “used” is an unfair term for a woman who’s chosen to have sex in the context of a relationship.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Would also like to add that I’ve never heard either a man or a woman suggest something good coming from a man crying. Does someone hear have stories otherwise?

    Sure, if there’s a strong attraction there to begin with.

    Who cares, though, what women think about it? I keep re-reading the O’Brien now and I find that though the passage doesn’t actually cause me to cry, I know that’s only because I’ve been taught to hold back all my life. I could easily find myself crying if I contemplated Jimmy Cross too long. And if a woman didn’t like it, she could just gtfo.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    What’s the fundamental difference between the desire to have a virgin and the desire to have a girl who has a low partner count? We’ve heard it said before that LTRs are NOT marriages, so what’s wrong with a guy who wants a girl who will wait till the real deal for the real deal?

    That men have accepted some degree of sexuality in the context of premarital relationships represents a good deal of compromise and emotional maturity.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I should add that while I said “in the context of a relationship,” I don’t think I’d refer to a girl who’s had casual sex of any kind as “used goods”–even though I do see the “casual sex” encounter as one in which people are essentially being used.

    I just didn’t want to inadvertently offend someone.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Saywhaat,

    And I don’t like to be referred to as a fucking “pot”, JM. Talk about objectification!

    And from here it seemed you were enjoying your new-found status as “sex pot.”

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    We’re all used goods and we’ve all made mistakes. That doesn’t mean we aren’t good people or unworthy of relationships.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    A Definite Beta Guy, there aren’t a lot of guys (in Western countries) who will wait until after the marriage ceremony to have sex with a girl, even a virgin who hasn’t done anything sexual.

    So if guys want a girl who waits for the real deal, but they won’t give her the real deal until after they’ve taken her for a “test drive,” what is she supposed to do?

    As I recall there was a Catholic female commenter here by the name of Bellita who has that problem. There was also another female in the manosphere nicknamed Alias Clio who said she was getting quite old, but still a single virgin. Eventually she did find a fellow Catholic man and got married.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    My first and only alpha was my college bf, and we dated for three years. He was extremely dominant, a leader (president of his frat), a varsity athlete, and actually a decent guy. He never cheated on me, for example. But that was in the 70s. Today, he’d probably be a douche. Anyway, he was boring. Just not very bright, not curious about anything. He didn’t have a lot of empathy for other people, and that turned me off. He also wasn’t very ambitious – he was focused on “having fun now” rather than building anything for the future. I broke up with him out of boredom. It just wasn’t fun having a high status bf who had little to say for himself. In the end, his amazing body and sexual dominance lost their appeal. It was like dating a cardboard cutout. It’s ironic, because men always claim that women get bored with beta guys. But I have never been so bored as I was in a relationship with “pure alpha.” Once I left I never looked back, not once, and I never was tempted to see him again.

    I don’t have a personal problem with this. At all. So don’t take this as a personal attack. But I think that maybe my old self, and definitely a few guys whose status won’t rise till after college, would feel like… you know, it’s easy for you and J to say it doesn’t matter. To you, it doesn’t.

    I’m sure a lot of these guys have gone 3 yrs not getting any love at all, and so for you to say that it doesn’t matter that you dated the high status guy with an amazing body for 3 yrs before being overcome by boredom sounds a bit too flip. To many men it matters a lot, because they rubbed their dicks raw for 3 yrs desperately wanting love from a girl who’s done similar things to you.

    That doesn’t make you bad or wrong, but hearing from a woman that it doesn’t matter isn’t going to transform that bitter into anything more positive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      I’m sure a lot of these guys have gone 3 yrs not getting any love at all, and so for you to say that it doesn’t matter that you dated the high status guy with an amazing body for 3 yrs before being overcome by boredom sounds a bit too flip. To many men it matters a lot, because they rubbed their dicks raw for 3 yrs desperately wanting love from a girl who’s done similar things to you.

      I’m not telling guys not to feel bad about their shitty luck in college. I’m telling them that when they do get into a relationship it is invalid, not to mention unproductive, to worry that the woman is suffering in silence from some sort of alpha hangover. Especially since very few women date alphas, and very few even have sex with alphas. This whole meme seems like a fabricated scare tactic. Ever since Roissy said that women prefer 5 minutes of alpha to 30 years with beta, not only have guys swallowed it whole, they’ve also warped the concept into believing that all women have been with an alpha for five minutes – the best five minutes of her life. I call BS, that’s all.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    As for male crying, what is wrong with it? I prefer a man who will cry to a man who refuses to ever shed tears. I don’t think it’s a “good thing” per se, but it does make me feel closer and fall deeper in love with the man if we are already close.

    If my husband hadn’t been willing to show such emotion, we probably wouldn’t be together today. Maybe that’s opposite of what other women want, but I’m not afraid of emotions.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As for male crying, what is wrong with it?

      Nothing. I was just trying to think of something that women generally don’t want to see from a man they are not emotionally intimate with.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Also,

    Telling guys who came of age and formed their identities at a time when they had little status and resources–or amazing bodies to compensate–that they’ll have their day 5 or so years after college isn’t going to work. It’s true, but those men don’t want to be loved for their status. They’ve learned to value themselves for different things–they had to. The idea that women are going to start liking them for the status they’ll achieve later on in life doesn’t sit right with a lot of men.

    Personally, I know that I’m glad that I started dating my gf before I sold my novel, because if it’d been afterward, I don’t know what I would’ve thought. I don’t want to be loved for my status. I’m not at all comfortable with the idea that my career success makes me a better catch or more attractive.

    I don’t have answers. I don’t know how many answers there really are: years of loneliness, rejection, bitterness are going to take their toll on individuals, they’re going to shape individuals, change them. Probably things were different in the 70′s.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      Telling guys who came of age and formed their identities at a time when they had little status and resources–or amazing bodies to compensate–that they’ll have their day 5 or so years after college isn’t going to work. It’s true, but those men don’t want to be loved for their status. They’ve learned to value themselves for different things–they had to. The idea that women are going to start liking them for the status they’ll achieve later on in life doesn’t sit right with a lot of men.

      For that sizable contingent of males, there is a parallel contingent of females. They graduate from college having never been on a single date, much closer to the end of their shelf life than any male.

      Beta guys can either go after those women, whom they have no reason to resent, or compete for the ones who have been promiscuous in the past.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Healing is always possible, it just needs to take place on a ground of mutual understanding, recognition of faults, and cherishing of positive traits.

    What I see right now is girls that actually feel ENTITLED to ride the carousel as much as they want while young and now think they are somehow entitled to a fair shot at my affections. This isn’t even controversial, not even among male friends. This is the expectation, because this is the way the world works.

    There is no admission of fault. Society is not condemned, the women are not condemned, the jerks are not condemned. The only person who was wrong was me, because I couldn’t get laid so go cry in a river.

    There can be no rapport on these terms. And that is very unfortunate for the women, because now I am increasingly the one in demand and I am not inclined to give out affections right now.

    Luckily for them, I guess, I am far more merciful than what I got. But god help you if you offend a beta who just found his balls. Your emotional state will be obliterated.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Definite Beta

    I went through my own healing process over the summer, but it involved fucking (over) a handful of girls who would almost certainly have seen me as “such a good catch for the girl that finally gets you” back in college.

    I’m hesitant to recommend that strategy for obvious reasons, and I’m not proud of having done it, and yet it helped get rid of a lot of bitterness I was holding onto.

    Clearly, I still have some bitterness, and I think that’s what fuels my reaction to anybody gushing over an alpha or declaring them dreamy or fun or sexy or attractive or anything of the sort. I have to work very hard to keep my heart open at such moments; I hear it and I feel my blood run cold toward the person speaking. So that’s probably not good.

    And yet it’s who I am. Even in my writing, undermining the “alpha”, taking him down, or even just mocking him is a recurring theme. In many ways, taking them down is an integral part of my life’s mission. Which is why I close off to people who find themselves attracted to them.

  • Ramble

    No, not any. I didn’t mean to imply people are perfect or anything and that a couple ruins you forever. But how many times a person needs to have casual sex to determine its “not for them” says something about the person. A couple of times is understandable, but 20 ONSs? Not so much.

    and

    I don’t need to have casual sex to know its not for me. Just like I never needed to get blackout drunk to realize I don’t like losing gaps of time. So, while I understand some people have to do it before they learn it, I’d ideally like to avoid that kind of person. Its not my thing.

    It’s interesting how extreme the comparisons are.

    Casual Sex ~ Some Drinking (No)

    Casual Sex ~ Back Out Drunk with Memory Loss (Yes)

    Now, I understand why girls would NOT want to have any casual sex. I completely understand. I would also understand someone wanting their future husband to have had no casual sex at all. Everyone has their interests ans standards.

    But, in general, guys can have some casual sex without it making them some sort of Lacrosse playing douche-bag.

    Nor, will he need to regret the casual sex, or see it as opposing, or preventing, a long lasting monogamous relationship.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    JM, healing processes are good for everyone but how exactly do you completely heal by people who were literally marginalized by society for a decade or more? Who are told every day they are worthless?

    How in the world are you going to fix young men, for who this experience is very, very recent, and also formative? When it defines their ENTIRE life with the opposite sex?

    What you said about gushing over the alpha? That’s what I am talking about. You are mostly healed, but they will forever be a tender spot. A tender spot people insist on poking by accident, because they insist they did NOTHING wrong. Even though their actions directly made you miserable for years. You are the one who is wrong, not them.

    Why wouldn’t you get pissed at that? You have taken the effort to improve yourself. They have no taken whatsoever to make you feel more comfortable in society. None. Zero. They will go right back to chewing you up and spitting you out if you regress because they think they committed no crime.

    THAT is why there is not going to be any healing. And it will continue for a while, because while we are progressing, we aren’t anywhere close to finished.

  • Alias

    Susan:
    “It’s worth less than it once was, because someone drove it off the lot and took a ride. In my view, the choice of language reflects a bruised male ego”
    ———

    I know it’s hard not to take it personally when we’re being compared to products but..
    I do want to point out that when we’re discussing the SMP (sexual marketplace), we’re bound to objectify people by using economic terms to describe the exchange of sex for resources.
    It’s difficult to get around that.

    But how about the use of the term “used” when referring to other relationships, like friendships or relatives?
    For ex- “My brother thinks he can use me to do all of his dirty work for him.”
    “I feel so used, she only calls me when she needs a favor”
    The implication being that you’re giving more than you are receiving.

  • J

    FWIW, my DH cried about a family issue in front of me while we were dating. I felt flattered that he trusted me with his vulnerability at a very bad moment in his life.

    I think the issue has to do with what the man is crying about. If he falls apart over a flat tire, that’s a problem. If it’s something worth crying over, it’s no problem.

    Interestingly, I don’t think that inappropriate anger is more masculine than inappropriate crying. I once broke up with a man who went into a rage over a flat tire.

  • Lokland

    @Susan, J

    “That’s not really true, because Rollo for example, stirs up a lot of anxiety (heh) in guys with the Man A vs. Man B theory. J is saying it’s not a valid theory. So if men believe it, they would probably benefit from changing their perspective. Of course, you can still choose to be threatened, but you should at least be aware that the theory is bogus.”

    Doesn’t matter if the theory is bogus.
    Matters how the perciever (the dude) feels about the situation. Perception is reality.
    I think your misunderstanding, this is not some learned idea. Its inner, core instinct.

    So if dude percieves it as bad (for any reason) to not get there first, its bad, for him. How the woman feels about it, is irrelevant. How she thinks he should feel, is criminal.

    As for J, lovely story lucky you la la la. Ohh I suppose you forgot we were talking about the guys feelings.
    No worries I don’t blame you for that.

    Men have no emotions. Thats what the lady on the tv said.

    In all seriousness, good for dodging your bullet. I’m glad your happy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Doesn’t matter if the theory is bogus.
      Matters how the perciever (the dude) feels about the situation. Perception is reality.

      Right, so reading blog posts that champion such a theory might alter his perception. If those blog posts were invalid, his perception is still his reality (for him), but he has been misled.

      I understand that men would ideally like to wed a virgin. Just knowing a woman has been with other men is clearly an issue, and today most men have to suck it up because women spend an average of 17 years between the onset of menses and marriage. Very few remain virgins throughout.

      Suggesting that those women will secretly pine for, fantasize about, and ultimately prefer their first just adds insult to injury. And it’s unnecessary, as it’s untrue.

  • Alias

    Anacaona:
    “Indeed if you really cared for your future children you wanted to make sure they had a way to get up in life if they had the talent and being the town’s bike or having several children with different women before getting married was a sure sign of low class that regardless of your intelligence and education would keep you in the same place. But then welfare queens give birth to welfare princess don’t they? So its not like they care that much right?”
    ———
    Well, I do have some compassion for people who can’t envision something better. What’s surprising, to me, is when people who have had better opportunities go on to compromise their children’s.
    It’s strange to watch so many people race to the bottom.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    For that sizable contingent of males, there is a parallel contingent of females. They graduate from college having never been on a single date, much closer to the end of their shelf life than any male.

    Beta guys can either go after those women, whom they have no reason to resent, or compete for the ones who have been promiscuous in the past.

    +1. I very much agree with this.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ever since Roissy said that women prefer 5 minutes of alpha to 30 years with beta, not only have guys swallowed it whole, they’ve also warped the concept into believing that all women have been with an alpha for five minutes – the best five minutes of her life. I call BS, that’s all.

    +1 on this, too. It is BS, but it isn’t Roissy that came up with the idea. That’s the fear sitting in the heart of every “beta” who came of age sitting on the sidelines. Roissy just capitalized on the fear.

  • Dogsquat

    Slow day at work today, so youns are gonna get bombarded with a full 14 hours of my mind-vomit, in concentrated form.

    Sorry ’bout this….

  • Dogsquat

    @David Foster

    Thanks for the compliment. I read your blog quite a bit, by the way. Thank you also for bringing the writings of Neptunus Rex to my attention. I am sure the Marines guarding Heaven’s scenes are harassing that ol’ Squid even now.

    Thanks also to everyone else who liked that. Helps a bit, it does.

  • Dogsquat

    JM said:

    “by doing so, conjuring up the spectrum of possibilities inherent in the human. ”
    ______________________________

    Colonel: You write “Born to kill” on your helmet, and you wear a peace button. What’s that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke?

    Private Joker: No, sir!

    Colonel: What is it supposed to mean?

    Private Joker: I don’t know, sir!

    Colonel: You don’t know very much, do you?

    Private Joker: No, sir!

    Colonel: You better get your head and your ass wired together, or I will take a giant shit on you!

    Private Joker: Yes, sir!

    Colonel: Now answer my question or you’ll be standing tall before the man!

    Private Joker: I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir!

    Colonel: The what?

    Private Joker: The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir!

    Colonel: Whose side are you on, son?

    Private Joker: Our side, sir!

    Colonel: Don’t you love your country?

    Private Joker: Yes, sir!

    Colonel: Then how ‘bout getting with the program? Why don’t you jump on the team and come on in for the big win?

    Private Joker: Yes, sir!

  • Dogsquat

    Hope said:

    “As an aside, I wish young folks didn’t have to go off to war that old people start. 18 is so young, but in the military it is normal. Just kids, teenagers, who should be full of life instead of experiencing so much death.”
    _____________________________

    After my Platoon Sergeant got zapped, I was the oldest guy in my platoon at the ripe old age of 26. They called me Poppa [My Last Name]. After I zigged when I shoulda zagged, the next oldest guy was our Lieutenant. He was 24 at the time.

    50% of the USMC is age 21 or younger.

  • Dogsquat

    Male Perspective said:

    “Hey great idea. Why don’t guys who bombed out with girls in college return to same college once they’ve matured and come more into their own? Anyone here tried that? Results?”
    _____________________________

    I never really “bombed out” with girls, but I am going back to school after some time in the military and the real world.

    I have done very well for myself in….ahh…..Women’s Studies.

  • Dogsquat

    Herb said:

    “So, a good strategy for men might be to work 3-5 years, save for college (so you’re loanless), take some night classes here and there or self-study and CLEP out so you go back as a sophomore or even junior. Then you have some alpha type advantages: proven ability to command resources, age and experience relative to the frat boys, and so on.”
    ______________________________

    Bravo Zulu.

    If I ever decide to issue the world a

    Dogsquat, Male,
    Type: Junior
    Number: 1 (one) each

    I will recommend this strategy to him for many reasons, including some unrelated to women.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Dogsquat,

    You realize your avatar looks like a picture of a gay blow-up doll, mouth perpetually prepared for a face-fucking, don’t you?

  • Dogsquat

    Herb said:

    “However, you live in a world where not only do most of the people who benefit from the people who suffer not only don’t consider it but many think it is beneath them and hold those who do it contempt.”
    ______________________________

    Herb, truer words hath ne’er a Squid spoke.

    I go to a very “liberal” university. In some of the soft science classes, I’ve sat through lectures where the professor called guys like me (and you) war criminals. I’ve seen some vets who disagreed punished, overtly and covertly.

    If nothing else, I know how to survive in hostile environments. I need great grades to get where I want to go, so I keep my mouth shut. I employ my camouflage and concealment techniques.

    If I am discovered to be a vet, I say I served on a laundry ship in the Persian Gulf and just did it for the college money.

    I think some of my professors would have more respect for me if I explained my non-traditional status with a lie about doing time in prison, or time with a biker gang.

    I have notes and some recordings of this stuff. When I am done with my education, I will probably look around for a receptive outlet in the media. I am very, very angry at my school. I am all for freedom of expression. Hell, I once bought a kid who called me a war criminal to my face a shot of Jack Daniel’s, and drank it with him. I admired his courage.

    These professors, though, are just hypocritical bullies abusing their power.

    I have gained so much empathy for closeted gay people during this experience. It’s funny – the SWPL profs who would rather cut off a hand than be called “homophobic” turn around and castigate an entire group of people who’ve done things they barely understand. And some of us are sitting right in front of them, struggling to keep our chins off the floor (and our fists out of their elitist faces).

  • Dogsquat

    J said:

    “OK, whatever. I shared something fairly personal with you guys hoping to save you a little pain. If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t. It’s not something I care to argue about”
    _____________________________

    I was struck by how similar I’ve felt as you did when you typed the quoted words.

    You agonize over three paragraphs for half an hour, summarizing ten years of your life and twenty of someone else’s. You confess things you’ve never even told your therapist. You think:

    “FINALLY! MY SUFFERING HAS PURPOSE! WHAT I’VE SAID HERE WILL HELP SOMEONE!”

    And then…..nobody notices, or they comment on your mixing of tenses or go off on a tangent about a word you didn’t use.

    Keep at it, though. Lots of readers never comment. I, for one, wish I’d read your story 10 years ago.

    You never know who you’re gonna impact.

  • OffTheCuff

    “For that sizable contingent of males, there is a parallel contingent of females. They graduate from college having never been on a single date, much closer to the end of their shelf life than any male.”

    NO! Not having a date proper does not mean “no physical contact”. I have no sympathy if they elect to hook up regularly or go casual even occasionally. Not the same at all.

    Dates come after attraction. It is better to have attraction without dates,than the reverse, since you are further down the script.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      NO! Not having a date proper does not mean “no physical contact”. I have no sympathy if they elect to hook up regularly or go casual even occasionally. Not the same at all.

      I didn’t mean that. I meant that as many women graduate from college having had no “lovin” as men. Though the sexes define that differently (using sex or even “physical contact” for both genders is not valid), there are equal numbers of disappointed and frustrated young people, IME.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I have no sympathy if they elect to hook up regularly or go casual even occasionally.

    True. Though I took her to mean that there are plenty of girls not hooking up or going casually with alphas.

  • Dogsquat

    SayWhaat said:

    “The last time I heard a guy talk about how he didn’t want to be with a virgin, I had to stop myself from snarkily replying, “weren’t you a virgin once? Oh wait, you were literally born with your P in V. My bad.”
    ____________________________

    To be fair, all men are neck deep in pussy at least once.

    Except for those poor dudes born by Cesarean section. Those are the true virgins.

  • Dogsquat

    Susan said:

    I’m telling them that when they do get into a relationship it is invalid, not to mention unproductive, to worry that the woman is suffering in silence from some sort of alpha hangover. Especially since very few women date alphas, and very few even have sex with alphas. This whole meme seems like a fabricated scare tactic. you.”
    ______________________________

    Hmm.

    You are correct, but not blanket-everything-like-fire-suppression-foam-does correct.

    The problem is not what you’re saying – it’s that guys aren’t going to believe you in their guts, where it matters, until/unless they live it themselves.

    Hell, I once dumped a bisexual ex-model who worked as a professional dancer (modern dance, not a stripper) and had a sizable trust fund. I don’t miss her at all. That girl was nuts, and made my life miserable. The only positive thing I got out of that relationship is…well, getting out of it.

    I get what you’re saying. I hear and believe you. If I heard it from a woman I loved these days, I’d understand. Even just five years ago, though? Fugeddaboutit. I’d eject so fast Goose would smash into the canopy.

    Ladies, please refrain from saying stuff like,”Well, even though my ex had millions of dollars, 8-pack abs, and a tan, athletic, 12-inch cock, I don’t miss him at all. I love you more! Your imperfections are why! They make you who you are, and I love that!”

    Now, some guys might understand and believe what you’re trying to get across.

    But a lot of guys wont.

    And you can never erase the image from his mind.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat

      Now, some guys might understand and believe what you’re trying to get across.

      But a lot of guys wont.

      And you can never erase the image from his mind.

      It sounds like guys are saying that it’s not the fact that the woman never gets over the AMOG (though I believe that was Lokland’s original point) but that a woman’s having been with an alpha at all is profoundly disturbing/threatening to men. Do men feel the same way if they have intelligence that the woman lost her virginity to the winner of the Science Fair?

  • Dogsquat

    Sassy said:

    “I’m starting to believe some people are reading what they want to read instead of actually reading what I have written.”
    ____________________________

    Listen here, Sassy. I’m only going to say this one more time:

    The FW-190 was BY FAR a superior low- and mid- altitude dogfighter when compared to the Messerschmidt Bf-109. You keep talking about inline piston engines like they’re King Shit of Turd Mountain.

    Big. Fucking. Deal.

    “Oh! Look at meeeeee! My engine is liquid cooled! I have a pressurized fuel line, too! Neener neener!”

    Are you so blinded by your hatred of Kurt Tank that you don’t recognize his utter genius in adopting and modifying the BMW 801 series radial engines? Maybe you don’t think good pilot visibility and a wide landing gear is important, but every other fucking pilot in the world does.

    “Nah!” you say,”Lets just hang a big engine on an airframe with a tiny cross-section. We’ll figure out the armament later.”

    I don’t know where you come up with this crap.

    Philistine.

    I hate talking about this shit with you.

    You take your stupid fantasies about WWII German fighter aircraft and shove them up the barrel of your MG 151/20.

    If this kind of bullshit (“Oh, they’d worked the kinks out by the time the Bf-109G2 came out!) is tolerated on this blog, I’m going to have to wash my hands of this place – and YOU ARE TO BLAME.

    Have a nice life – I’m out.

  • Dogsquat

    By the way, Sassy –

    I like reading what you have to say, and the above is utterly, totally, 100% a joke. I was really bored today is all.

    You are listed under the heading “All Right” in The Book of Dogsquat.

    I also think folks were a little hard on you for your comment about Lt Cross earlier. You’ve probably never thought about that stuff much, and were honest in your reaction. No shame in that, at all.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Right, so reading blog posts that champion such a theory might alter his perception. If those blog posts were invalid, his perception is still his reality (for him), but he has been misled.”

    I think your misunderstanding. Those blog posts are expressing a genuine feeling. (Similar to JMs point on Roissy.)

    I also agree with what Dogsquat said, now I would get it. I don’t have to nor would I particularly want to but I could for her.

    Explaining it to the guy whose dick has friction burn 5 years after uni will, without fail, not go over well.

    These are not ideas that are learned, at least not from a game blog. It comes from long, periods of lonliness and a media that drills into every young mans head that unless he is banging two HB10s every Saturday night (concurrently, consecutively doesn’t count, obviously) that he is not even good enough to be called a man.

    And also, as you’ve pointed out, most women sit out as well. Theres actually 0 reason a man should expect any less. The odds are in his favour.

  • OffTheCuff

    Dog: “Except for those poor dudes born by Cesarean section. Those are the true virgins.”

    I know everyone else thinks you are Louis CK and Seinfeld’s hilarious love-child, and indeed, you are 527 times more entertaining this this old bag of meat (unless I am a few hundred milligrams deep into the muscle relaxants, cheap whiskey, and perhaps a soupçon of mostly, but not quite, legal narctoics; in which case it is only perhaps 37 times as such), but…

    Finally you wrote something really funny. Haaaaa!!

  • OffTheCuff

    JM: “though I took her to mean that there are plenty of girls not hooking up or going casually with alphas.”

    True. Then again, I did go on a handful of dates college, in the sense I asked them out before hooking up. Women either declined, or, went but seemed oblivious/confused that was trying to… you know, DATE them. So I stopped asking. “Dates” were clearly a loser strategy, until after attraction has been proved hot and heavy.

  • J

    Thanks. Dogsquat. I really appreciate that.

    I also appreciate Susan chiming in with her similar view on the subject.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Well, I do have some compassion for people who can’t envision something better. What’s surprising, to me, is when people who have had better opportunities go on to compromise their children’s.
    It’s strange to watch so many people race to the bottom.

    But the bottom is painted with gold and jewels and is not called bottom anymore but freedom. We cannot blame them if the facts are misleading can we?

  • J

    Hope, I didn’t realize any of that about Clio. I’m happy to hear she got married. Kids?

  • J

    But the bottom is painted with gold and jewels and is not called bottom anymore but freedom. We cannot blame them if the facts are misleading can we?

    Yeah that’s the sad fact, isn’t it. People don’t know the difference between freedom and having nothing of importance.

  • Dogsquat

    ADBG said:

    “What you said about gushing over the alpha? That’s what I am talking about. You are mostly healed, but they will forever be a tender spot. A tender spot people insist on poking by accident, because they insist they did NOTHING wrong. Even though their actions directly made you miserable for years. You are the one who is wrong, not them.

    Why wouldn’t you get pissed at that? You have taken the effort to improve yourself. They have no taken whatsoever to make you feel more comfortable in society. None. Zero. They will go right back to chewing you up and spitting you out if you regress because they think they committed no crime.”

    _______________________________

    I would like to offer you a different way of looking at this idea, if I may:

    Before going further, please understand that I know what you’re going through, having gone through my own version a while back. The following might sound a trifle condescending, but I’m showing one possible way you can jettison some anger:

    Imagine solutions to the (real and painful) issues you’ve experienced. Break out a few sentences and really think:

    “A tender spot people insist on poking by accident, because they insist they did NOTHING wrong.”

    These folks fucked who they wanted to fuck, and hung out with people they wanted to hang out with. Isn’t that what you want to do? Is it wrong for them but not for you?

    What is the alternative? Here’s one:

    For a proper fee, I will spend up to a week with the girl of your choice. I’ll make her ask out a guy she doesn’t like. I’ll give him money to take her out to a nice dinner. I’ll follow her into the bathroom to make sure she doesn’t ditch him. I will apply duct tape to her mouth moments before she says anything the guy would construe as hurtful.

    If she doesn’t laugh at his jokes, I’ll give her a touch of Tazer. Through operant conditioning or possibly CBT, I will train her to like Anime, baseball, and Insane Clown Posse. I will give her a quota of 1.7 admiring statements per hour when clothed. She will emit 12.2 per hour when discussing sexual relations with him, rounding up to the nearest whole number for each sexual encounter.

    Do you think the guy will like this?

    What are you gonna do when I show up behind you at the bar with instructions to take a dumb, fat, and smelly girl to the Justin Beiber concert?

    Keep in mind that I’m a professional, and my loyalty is to my customer.

    If she paid me to make sure you hang out with her, well, that’s what you’re gonna do. I don’t like Twilight fan fiction either, but she does. She wants you to like it, too. So you’ll “like” it, because it will hurt too much not to.

    And when she looks up at you at the end of the date, tilts her head for a kiss, and smiles – kiss her and mean it, or I’ll smash your left kidney into Dialysisland. I don’t give a good goddamn that she’s got spinach plastered across four crooked teeth from the appetizer you bought her 8 hours ago. She’s paying to get what she wants, and you don’t get a say.

    That, my friend, is the only way I can think of to make people do what you want. Sound good?

    …..

    “Even though their actions directly made you miserable for years.”

    Here’s another way of thinking:

    You chose to let people make you miserable.

    Somebody is an asshole? Don’t hang out with them. Parents fuck you up? Get some therapy and do a better job when it’s your turn. Get dumped? There’s always another woman – no shit.

    You’re miserable because you lack the tools to shape your environment. Which is more productive – learning those tools, or begging for everyone else to cater to your whims?

    Shit in one hand, wish in the other, as the saying goes.

    …….

    “You are the one who is wrong, not them.”

    That is the critical vulnerability, the fulcrum of your outlook.

    Listen – there is no “right” or “wrong” here. Sure, maybe in the grand philosophic sense there is, but we’re talking micro level, day-to-day shit now.

    Your life is your responsibility. You are responsible for enforcing your boundaries. People will do what they want, most times, and….so will you.

    ………

    It helps, sometimes, to imagine an alien anthropologist analyzing your life, sometime far in the future. What would it say?

    “Ah, I see the being known as ADBG learned from his mistakes. He corrected his faulty conditioning and applied the new knowledge. This being became Happy.”

    -or-

    “Hmmm….This human retreated to fantasy. In it’s youth, it absorbed faulty information. Ultimately it proved unable to adapt to objective reality, and so failed to pass on it’s genetic material. It turned to Cheetos and whiskey for solace. We think it was afflicted with the disease called Irrational Anger, for which there was no cure.”

    Just a thought for you to consider. Again, I’m really not talking shit or talking down to you. I’ve been where you are. It sucks. You have a lot of work to do – none of which you volunteered for.

    If you’d like to discuss this further with me, feel free to do so. I will help you if I can.

  • Dogsquat

    JM said:

    You realize your avatar looks like a picture of a gay blow-up doll, mouth perpetually prepared for a face-fucking, don’t you?
    __________________

    Type it again.

    Oh yeah. Go a little slower.

    I’m almost there, baby…..

  • Dogsquat

    @OTC

    “I know everyone else thinks you are Louis CK and Seinfeld’s hilarious love-child,”
    __________________

    My boner just went away. Jesus is gonna be pissed.

    Imagine those two dudes fucking in a bus station bathroom, and you to will be bonerless.

  • Charm

    @Ramble

    Let me explain further. I didnt elaborate earlier because I got pretty bad stomach pains and had see a doctor.

    In a perfect world, I would never come across a man who has had casual sex, because more men would dislike it as much as I do, even in the 21st century. If we had 2 guys, with almost all things being equal, and one had casual sex a few times and one was always relationship oriented, I’d always choose the latter. Every time. But since this isn’t a perfect world, and there is a ton of pressure in the media for people behave a certain way sexually, there are probably a fair portion of relationship minded people who try out casual sex since “its all the rave”. Now I could maintain a rigid stance and say “no way no how” to every single person that has ever had casual sex, but how many people would I miss out on? I mean, doing it a couple of times and regretting it (while certainly not ideal) isn’t the same as a guy who learns game and makes it his mission to bang 50 number of girls by his 25th birthday like its all a game. Aren’t relationships all about getting the best deal possible? A guy who is say 80% compatible with me and had 2 ONSs years ago and regretted it isn’t a bad deal. But like I said, ideally I’d like one who has never cared to do it and never gave into the pressure to do it. But thats just me projecting I guess. I expect other people to be as resistant to influence as I am. I have to leave room for some human weakness.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Definite Beta

    What you said about gushing over the alpha? That’s what I am talking about. You are mostly healed, but they will forever be a tender spot. A tender spot people insist on poking by accident, because they insist they did NOTHING wrong. Even though their actions directly made you miserable for years. You are the one who is wrong, not them.

    Why wouldn’t you get pissed at that? You have taken the effort to improve yourself. They have no taken whatsoever to make you feel more comfortable in society. None. Zero. They will go right back to chewing you up and spitting you out if you regress because they think they committed no crime.

    THAT is why there is not going to be any healing. And it will continue for a while, because while we are progressing, we aren’t anywhere close to finished.

    You know, I’ve been thinking about this. I don’t feel bitter. I used to be very bitter, true, but I don’t really feel bitter now. However, I think that those years of bitterness, and the experiences that led to my bitterness, have definitely shaped me. I’m very much anti-power, anti-establishment, anti-authority, anti-”pure” alpha as a result of my experiences. I’ve made it my mission in life to thwart power and authority and to support others who do the same, to lend a hand to the meek and poor and powerless, to confuse and frustrate and stymie people of power and status, and, when possible, to dissemble the power structure in order to give some freedom to the underdogs.

    So my antenna goes up: anybody who supports the “alpha” or is attracted to the pure alpha is an opponent.

    The only way to let go of the bitterness is to stop thinking in terms of what you lack and start thinking in terms of what you have. If you live your life as an expression of your deepest purpose, then I think you’re naturally going to attract people with similar ideas and values.

    There are women around who are looking for a definite beta guy, who are not and have never been attracted to anything like the pure alpha.

  • SayWhaat

    And from here it seemed you were enjoying your new-found status as “sex pot.”

    My bf is allowed to objectify me. No one else. Now shoo. :P

  • SayWhaat

    However, I think that those years of bitterness, and the experiences that led to my bitterness, have definitely shaped me. I’m very much anti-power, anti-establishment, anti-authority, anti-”pure” alpha as a result of my experiences. I’ve made it my mission in life to thwart power and authority and to support others who do the same, to lend a hand to the meek and poor and powerless, to confuse and frustrate and stymie people of power and status, and, when possible, to dissemble the power structure in order to give some freedom to the underdogs.

    I can relate. I can really relate. I don’t know many people who haven’t felt like the “underdog” at least once in their life. I feel like it’s been my life story.

    I was thinking about this today as well. I may not be bitter now that I’m in a relationship, but those experiences before my bf have shaped me, in some ways that I don’t know yet if I like, or can appreciate. If things don’t work out with my bf and I end up dating again (*shudder*) I will probably have a giant chip on my shoulder because every guy will be just another dipshit who rejected me because of my virginity — especially if he doesn’t reject me this time.

    I dunno. I hope I don’t get to that point.

    /midnightwordvomit

  • J

    As for J, lovely story lucky you la la la….In all seriousness, good for dodging your bullet. I’m glad your happy.

    Well, thanks I suppose, but you’ve missed my point, Lokland. Let me try it again.

    A guy who many in the ‘sphere would consider alpha, turned out to be alpha in my book only in the sense that A is also for asshole. The ‘sphere would predict that I still pine for him, but really all I feel is relief that he turned out to be some other womens’ problem–poor, dumb bitches that they were. To me, he is a dodged bullet, to him–over 30 years later– I am apparently “the one who got away.” Who is “pining” for whom? Who’s really alpha? Hint: I think it’s me.

    My supposed “five minutes of alpha” are not the golden moments men might fantasize. I didn’t imprint on his “magic penis” in a way that prevented me from being a faithful and loving wife to the man I have spent the last quarter century with. My relationship with my “alpha” has in fact been largely irrevelent to my marriage. I regret it mostly because it was rather painful at the time. In fact, if I had a re-do, I’d never have even said hello to this guy. Unfortunately, there are no re-dos. All you can do is move on, so I did.

    I would have thought that the news that women can and do move on would have made you guys happy. That’s why I brought it up. Apparently, it didn’t make you happy or you simply don’t believe me, so forget I said it. Chalk it up to the ravings of a middled-age woman and move on. Much of the time, moving on is the only way to win.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      My supposed “five minutes of alpha” are not the golden moments men might fantasize. I didn’t imprint on his “magic penis” in a way that prevented me from being a faithful and loving wife to the man I have spent the last quarter century with.

      I know you’ve moved on but I just want to say that it’s this notion of imprinting that is the real canard.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    DS:

    I agree with you on almost everything you said. Few years post college here, had some positive experiences since then, and can command my emotional state pretty well: no where near as bitter as I used to be, and hopefully that gets less and less with time.

    The biggest problem for a Beta Guy, IMO, is recognizing his own fault. There’s nothing wrong in your taser-story. It doesn’t require any spinning at all. Beta Guys weren’t attractive to girls, weren’t putting in the effort to make themselves attractive, were too focused on bitterness: that’s their own problem.

    What I reject is that idea that there is no blame. I’m not down with the “fuck whoever you want” mentality anymore than I am down with “Everyone should eat all the cupcakes in the world.” Indulging base instincts with no regard to consequences leads to bad places. So, no, it’s not exactly that I want to fuck who I want, when I want.

    That sort of outlook seems toxic to me. But, meh, I’m not the one who’s going to get hurt by it anymore, so why not?

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “I meant that as many women graduate from college having had no “lovin” as men. Though the sexes define that differently (using sex or even “physical contact” for both genders is not valid), there are equal numbers of disappointed and frustrated young people, IME.”

    I think it is a pointless and totally invalid correlation that only serves to belittle the men who do get literally nothing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think it is a pointless and totally invalid correlation that only serves to belittle the men who do get literally nothing.

      Why do you have no empathy for the women who get literally nothing? Why is it their responsibility to go sex up beta men?

      I don’t understand this double standard, this constant claiming of “we have it worse” from men. You want the low ground? Take it. I don’t see what good it does.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Do men feel the same way if they have intelligence that the woman lost her virginity to the winner of the Science Fair?

    Of course not. But for many guys, the alpha is the enemy. Imagine a Jewish guy finding out that his gf lost her virginity to a skin head. And then hearing how, despite his sexy bald scalp and his hot tattoos, she’s just over skin heads, so it shouldn’t matter to the Jewish bf.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Of course not. But for many guys, the alpha is the enemy. Imagine a Jewish guy finding out that his gf lost her virginity to a skin head. And then hearing how, despite his sexy bald scalp and his hot tattoos, she’s just over skin heads, so it shouldn’t matter to the Jewish bf.

      That analogy doesn’t work for me. First, by definition a skinhead is a person of murderous intent, i.e. poor character. Though I’m generally not a fan of alphas, one should not impugn character based on that. Alphas are mostly born, not made, so even though they may be more likely to embrace or develop negative character traits, there is enormous variability on that. Someone else remarked “not all betas are nice.” Of course not, and not all alphas are assholes. My college bf was not an asshole at all. He was very loving and demonstrative.

      I would suggest that guys who focus on alpha as enemy are putting their energy in the wrong place. I can’t even imagine the male hamsterwheeling that needs to occur to get those guys into an alpha state themselves, which is what game promises. That sounds like a story that won’t end well.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    And then, further,

    Imagine the Jewish guy hearing that if he wants to get more girls, all he has to do is add a bit of skinhead to his personality.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Why do you have no empathy for the women who get literally nothing? Why is it their responsibility to go sex up beta men?

    So I don’t get it, are you putting the girl who couldn’t find a bf, but spent weekends making out with various higher status guys to the boy who found it almost impossible to even get a kiss?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sorry, that should have read:

    So I don’t get it, are you putting the girl who couldn’t find a bf, but spent weekends making out with various higher status guys on an equal footing with the boy who found it almost impossible to even get a kiss?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So I don’t get it, are you putting the girl who couldn’t find a bf, but spent weekends making out with various higher status guys on an equal footing with the boy who found it almost impossible to even get a kiss?

      @Jesus

      No, I’m talking about the girl who didn’t go to parties and make out with randoms in school. She’s the beta female – going to classes, has some girlfriends from the dorm, is mostly invisible to guys, or at least feels that way. Never gets singled out or invited out by the opposite sex.

      If we assume that the girls making out with random high status guys are the girls that eventually have sex with random high status guys, then we’re still only talking about 9% of female students – at most. I don’t think girls who hook up routinely draw the line at making out – if they try, word gets around they’re prudes, i.e. a waste of time.

      This isn’t a new concept I’m introducing here. It’s long been my contention that up to 80% of both sexes are pretty miserable in this SMP, because there’s no real way for them to participate. Again, the goals are different. The guys have no access to physical intimacy, and the girls have no access to emotional intimacy.

  • OffTheCuff

    I do have empathy for women who do get nothing, SayWhaat gets respect from me — if it is indeed nothing and not being on the carousel.

    Otherwise, hooking up while hoping for a boyfriend, is having your cake and eating it too.

    My wife did not do hookups, and this beta guy respected that. Women who were currently doing hookups were off of the girlfriend ladder, completely. I would advise men today to do the same.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Women who were currently doing hookups were off of the girlfriend ladder, completely. I would advise men today to do the same.

      Sounds reasonable to me.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Why do you have no empathy for the women who get literally nothing? Why is it their responsibility to go sex up beta men?”

    A girl saying “I only made out with an alpha every night but thats not what I really wanted” to the guy who hasn’t been in a relationship or made out with any pretty girl is actually cruel.
    It screams “accept me for all my fuckups”.

    So hypothetically,

    Woman, no relationship, make out.
    Men, no relationship, no make out.

    How you can conflate those is equal is utterly beyond me.

    To your second question, its not. Its also not mens responsibility to forgive women their fuck-ups either.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      A girl saying “I only made out with an alpha every night but thats not what I really wanted” to the guy who hasn’t been in a relationship or made out with any pretty girl is actually cruel.
      It screams “accept me for all my fuckups”.

      That’s not the story I told. I spent three years in an LTR with a guy who happens to have been alpha. It wasn’t a fuckup, and I make no apologies for it. The same is true for J’s story. You extrapolated it to make a new argument – having to do with whether women rode the carousel.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I would suggest that guys who focus on alpha as enemy are putting their energy in the wrong place.

    The alpha is the enemy. Game (at least as I understand it) is about developing a balanced set of alpha/beta traits. But the pure alpha is the enemy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      The alpha is the enemy. Game (at least as I understand it) is about developing a balanced set of alpha/beta traits. But the pure alpha is the enemy.

      Game is about ridding oneself of beta traits entirely. See the Ro’s. It’s about becoming pure alpha. Athol adapted Game to include relationship maintenance or improvement. Game was codified as a method of getting laid, not getting into a relationship, though it was always acknowledged that a pure alpha could get that if he wanted.

      You have only to witness the pushback I get here from beta guys re their own beta traits to see this. Whenever I champion or defend a trait considered beta, several guys will express that they’re worried I’m giving hapless beta males the wrong message. I get the same resistance from male commenters when I criticize pure alpha behavior.

      Your focus on Inner Game, Athol’s focus on marriage Game – these might be considered Game 2.0.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The alpha is the enemy. Game (at least as I understand it) is about developing a balanced set of alpha/beta traits. But the pure alpha is the enemy.

    And this, btw, is the disconnect. The women are saying, whatever, we’ve moved on, what’s the problem? The problem is that women find the enemy attractive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      And this, btw, is the disconnect. The women are saying, whatever, we’ve moved on, what’s the problem? The problem is that women find the enemy attractive.

      Well now we’re back to defining alpha, which is always problematic. When a woman sees a man with a handsome, symmetrical face, a fit body and a confident grin – is he alpha? Does she think in those terms? Or might he be Jesus Mahoney, an attractive mix of physical and emotional traits? She doesn’t know yet. She’s initially attracted physically, and she needs to become better acquainted to see if this is a man she wants to get to know better with an eye toward long-term mating.

      If he opens his mouth and is stupid, she’ll be repulsed. If he opens his mouth and is a dick, she will hopefully be repulsed. Has he just demonstrated that he is alpha? If he opens his mouth and engages her in witty banter with a smile, is he alpha? Good alpha or bad alpha? How about if he helps carry her groceries? Beta?

      Women are wired to take their time in evaluating men as potential sexual partners. What we see in the current SMP is that some women are making snap judgments based on entirely superficial factors. Game theorists would call those factors the definition of alpha, but I’ve known some good looking beta guys who do very well attracting women for short-term, but have no interest in dating promiscuous women.

      If alpha is defined as “guy women want to fuck” then looks is most of it. Because those are the guys women throw themselves at for ONSs.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    No, I’m talking about the girl who didn’t go to parties and make out with randoms in school. She’s the beta female – going to classes, has some girlfriends from the dorm, is mostly invisible to guys, or at least feels that way. Never gets singled out or invited out by the opposite sex.

    Okay, that makes more sense.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’m interested in what other guys think: do others see the “pure alpha” as a sort of enemy or opponent–someone playing for an entirely different team?

  • Ramble

    But since this isn’t a perfect world, and there is a ton of pressure in the media for people behave a certain way sexually, there are probably a fair portion of relationship minded people who try out casual sex since “its all the rave”. Now I could maintain a rigid stance and say “no way no how” to every single person that has ever had casual sex, but how many people would I miss out on? I mean, doing it a couple of times and regretting it (while certainly not ideal) isn’t the same as a guy who learns game and makes it his mission to bang 50 number of girls by his 25th birthday like its all a game.

    Charm, what if the guy did NOT feel pressured by the media to have any casual sex? And, he did not dream of being a PUA? And, he did not attempt to get the highest notch count ever.

    But, in his life of love and relationships, he met a really hot girl or two that was down for something casual. And, he had a really good time. With NO regrets.

    What then?

    Again, guys are not girls. Unless they are religious, the are unlikely to have hardcore opinions about casual sex. That does not mean they dream of being the next Roissy. But, enjoying a night or two with a pretty girl who is not likely to be Ms Right sounds OK.

    Again, I am in no way trying to get you to think one way or the other. If you know exactly what you want, good for you. It sounds Anacoana knew what she wanted and aimed for it, and is, now, pretty happy.

    But, I am curious to see what you think if you DON’T force the logic into some sort of, “If he had any casual sex, then, he MUST regret it.”

  • Lokland

    @JM

    I see assholes as the enemy. Thats one breed of alpha.
    Theres the classic type fo leadership alpha which is entirely discounted. Those guys are genuinely awesome to be around.

    @Susan

    Those girls who actually had nothing. They come from the same place as those beta guys. The question is, do they want those beta guys?
    My guess would be no.

    “If alpha is defined as “guy women want to fuck” then looks is most of it. Because those are the guys women throw themselves at for ONSs.”

    Bodes well for marriages in general. Seeing as most men are ugly (NAWALT but enough are).

    @J

    One last attempt.
    I get what your saying. I understand it, I’m not an idiot.

    It doesn’t matter. Its like trying to convince me fat chicks are hot or slut will make good wives. Its wired into the hind brain.

    So, your trying to throw logic at a situation and totally ignoring male emotions. Hence why I don’t blame you.

    Men don’t have emotions, at least thats what the lady on the tv says.

    I think Herb gave an excellent counter-example earlier so I won’t bother with one of my own.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – “I would have thought that the news that women can and do move on would have made you guys happy. That’s why I brought it up. Apparently, it didn’t make you happy or you simply don’t believe me, so forget I said it. Chalk it up to the ravings of a middled-age woman and move on. Much of the time, moving on is the only way to win.”

    No, I believe your story 100%. But, many women don’t have such a catastrophic ending to their “5 minutes of alpha”, and in fact may very well pine for them. Most of the time, the alpha simply moves on, leaving the women confused, sad, and lonely, all the while she still wants him back. THOSE are the women Lokland and the rest of us are talking about. Your story is the best case scenario, which is to say an alpha really screwed your life up for awhile, and you learned to avoid them. Many women NEVER learn that lesson.

    Susan – “It sounds like guys are saying that it’s not the fact that the woman never gets over the AMOG (though I believe that was Lokland’s original point) but that a woman’s having been with an alpha at all is profoundly disturbing/threatening to men. Do men feel the same way if they have intelligence that the woman lost her virginity to the winner of the Science Fair?”

    This is closer to the truth for me at least. As a guy with some smarts, no really intelligent men in my SO’s past wouldn’t bother me (she has none however, LOL) because I KNOW I can hold my own against people that really are geniuses. I’ve been around smarter guys than me most of my professional life, but I still kick their ass in the ability to apply my knowledge for practical uses. And, being someone with some intelligence, I’m not intimidated by more of it when I see it.

    Now, the issue for me is I am not nor will I ever be pure alpha, and it isn’t something I can compete with. Since I feel so outclassed in that dept, it certainly does bother me that my SO has been with these guys. Sure, she may not value those traits anymore, but if she ever did I might be left holding the bag, so it IS a minor threat on my radar.

    Same goes for really handsome guys. I’m not ugly, but I’m no Brad Pitt. If my SO’s past lovers were mostly pretty boys, I would feel VERY intimidated of them regardless of how she tells me she feels about me. Her feelings aren’t the point, it is the fact that she sampled some goods that I can’t reproduce. If she ever wants those good again, it will have to come from a different supplier, and of course that would be a problem.

    “Why do you have no empathy for the women who get literally nothing? Why is it their responsibility to go sex up beta men?”

    I am going to take a guess at this, because I don’t feel the same way. But, I think many men have little sympathy for such women because they feel that if the women really wanted some attention, all she would have to do is go to any bar and openly profess her desire for it, and she would have more than she wants. Never mind that the attention she would get isn’t the kind she wants, she still has an easier time of getting ANY attention than your average invisible beta dude.

    “I would suggest that guys who focus on alpha as enemy are putting their energy in the wrong place. I can’t even imagine the male hamsterwheeling that needs to occur to get those guys into an alpha state themselves, which is what game promises. That sounds like a story that won’t end well”

    It may be that the energy is going to the wrong place, but indeed much of it goes right there. To many betaish men, the alpha IS the enemy. Why? Because they grew up being told by young women how great they were, while all the alphas screwed those same women every weekend. Then, they got to hear those same women crying on their shoulder when the alpha moved on. That can make a guy kinda hate alpha’s in general pretty quickly. And, as a member of this group (although I don’t hate anyone, takes too much of my energy), I can tell you this is EXACTLY why game bothers me so much. It is a method to turn myself into something I despise. And yes, it takes some massive mental gymnastics to get past that ugly, nasty, bitter tasting truth.

    “If alpha is defined as “guy women want to fuck” then looks is most of it. Because those are the guys women throw themselves at for ONSs.”

    Sorry, but I call BS on this one. Some of the most successful PUAs out there are short and bland looking, yet they score big time. So, if it isn’t their looks, what about them makes them appear to be alpha? It’s their attitude, and to me the average PUA has a shitty attitude, that for some reason women can’t get enough of. THAT is what makes alpha “the enemy” for me.

    JM – “I’m interested in what other guys think: do others see the “pure alpha” as a sort of enemy or opponent–someone playing for an entirely different team?”

    Yep I certainly do. Although, I should clarify that I’m talking about your average asshat alpha, not the John Wayne types, if any of those even exist today…

    Ramble – “Again, guys are not girls. Unless they are religious, the are unlikely to have hardcore opinions about casual sex. “

    I’m not highly religious, but I have VERY strong opinions on casual sex. If that’s what Charm is looking for, well I don’t consider myself a unicorn. Very odd? Yep. Pretty rare? Probably. But I’m here, and I know a few other guys that are similar, so I guess I’m saying: Not All Men Are Like That.

    NAMALT just doesn’t sound as good as NAWALT…

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “You have only to witness the pushback I get here from beta guys re their own beta traits to see this. Whenever I champion or defend a trait considered beta, several guys will express that they’re worried I’m giving hapless beta males the wrong message. I get the same resistance from male commenters when I criticize pure alpha behavior.”

    When you push beta traits it comes across as mocking.
    When you push alpha traits it comes across like your trying to deny a wet dream actually happened.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      When you push beta traits it comes across as mocking.
      When you push alpha traits it comes across like your trying to deny a wet dream actually happened.

      Interesting, it’s a credibility issue. I can only offer my experience as wife and mother to beta guys, and champion of beta traits in the raising of my daughter.

  • Lokland

    @Ted D

    “Yep I certainly do. Although, I should clarify that I’m talking about your average asshat alpha, not the John Wayne types, if any of those even exist today…”

    Its funny. John Wayne was the same guy I thought of when answering JM describing a good leader.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Lokland and Ted,

    I’m not very familiar with John Wayne, but the idea evokes a guy who uses his “alpha” traits to support the weak and less advantaged… in other words, someone who’s a mix of alpha and beta.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    ” I don’t know a single woman who longs for the alpha that got away. They tend to leave such a trail of destruction, no one mourns them in the end. It’s like recalling Hurricane Katrina with fondness.”

    It is like; what the hell was I thinking? Moreover, I am glad I finally came to my senses. There are no fond memories and longing.

    Where do they [manosphere] get that bullshit?

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan – “Interesting, it’s a credibility issue. I can only offer my experience as wife and mother to beta guys, and champion of beta traits in the raising of my daughter.”

    It also doesn’t help that other than Athol, you are the only one I know if in the genre that even suggests beta traits are attractive to women at all. And to be honest, Athol doesn’t suggest they are attractive so much as necessary for long term relationship bliss. Everywhere else guys go, they are told beta is bad and alpha is good. And, just like it’s tough for you to understand the previous lover/number issue, you might have a tough time with this. Men who have been beta most of their lives and had little success simply find it hard to believe that what they have IS indeed attractive, if only presented in a better light. I found it easier at first to believe I was all bad/wrong/broken and needed to be completely rebuilt into something better. Being an older guy that was mostly comfortable with myself, I realized pretty quickly that I like who I was, and only needed to adjust and tweak some things to create that better presentation, but I imagine younger men and/or men that are less comfortable “in their own skin” might simply reject everything they currently are and go for the full on alpha asshat mode. If I had found the red pill prior to getting married, I can’t say I wouldn’t have done it myself. The enticing prospect of “rolling in poon” may have been enough for me to scrap my morals and ethics completely. I’m very glad that didn’t happen, but if it had I wouldn’t have known the difference anyway I suppose. :P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Men who have been beta most of their lives and had little success simply find it hard to believe that what they have IS indeed attractive, if only presented in a better light.

      Well that’s a shame for those men, because very few will be able to fully transition to alpha asshat, and like it. Most people aren’t cut out to be narcissistic sociopaths, red pill or not.

  • Lokland

    @JM

    “I’m not very familiar with John Wayne, but the idea evokes a guy who uses his “alpha” traits to support the weak and less advantaged… in other words, someone who’s a mix of alpha and beta.”

    Ya its an actual hero. Not a modern hero (thinking Green lantern here) which is basically a teenager with a six pack but an actual good person who champions the weak.

    @Lisa

    “It is like; what the hell was I thinking? Moreover, I am glad I finally came to my senses. There are no fond memories and longing.

    Where do they [manosphere] get that bullshit?”

    Wow you came to your senses? Good for you.
    Now just go get the good guy thats been sitting there waiting patiently while you fucked some alpha.
    Excuse me while I puke.

    The problem is only partially that your over it. The larger problem is that you were there in the first place.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Interesting, it’s a credibility issue.

    Yes. Personally, I trust in your sincerity or else I wouldn’t bother coming here. But, a woman who has dated or slept with “alphas”, or finds them hot, raves about them, “dishes” about them–loses her credibility in the eyes of a beta guy. The “alpha”–by which I mean the guy dripping alpha traits and not evincing many beta ones–is the enemy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But, a woman who has dated or slept with “alphas”, or finds them hot, raves about them, “dishes” about them–loses her credibility in the eyes of a beta guy.

      High SMV women are likely to have been pursued by alpha males. They may have all been evil cads, or maybe not. Some of those women have dated alphas, and liked it.

      IDK, refusing to accept that reality is to suggest that women find beta traits equally desirable and attractive up front, even in the absence of any alphaness. And we know that’s just not true. Pure dominant alphas will get more women than pure supplicating betas. I feel foolish even stating the obvious. There is a baseline level of dominance that a male must have to spark female attraction.

      I have to say I’m feeling frustrated with the alpha/beta dichotomy here, it doesn’t work. Let’s discuss specific traits if you want to continue talking about this.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ya its an actual hero. Not a modern hero (thinking Green lantern here) which is basically a teenager with a six pack but an actual good person who champions the weak.

    Right. To me, that “hero” represents the epitome of the alpha-beta combination.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Right. To me, that “hero” represents the epitome of the alpha-beta combination.

      Yes, a hero does. His nemesis is a powerful and dominant male who is evil. Every superhero story stars these two characters. There’s a reason we say Dark and Light, Sith and Jedi. Many of the popular Game bloggers represent and promote the latter. Only the innate goodness of some males prevents them from being completely corrupted. I’m thankful for that at least.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “Right. To me, that “hero” represents the epitome of the alpha-beta combination.

    The trouble is, it wasn’t so long ago that THIS was the alpha ideal. I’d say its only been since the 70′s on that the term alpha morphed to represent the asshats of the male sex. When I rail against alphas, everyone here should now going forward I am referring to ASSHAT MEN ONLY. The “real” leaders, again if there are any/many left, are not alphas in my eyes. They are too good to be given that label.

  • J

    SW:Do men feel the same way if they have intelligence that the woman lost her virginity to the winner of the Science Fair?

    JM:Of course not. But for many guys, the alpha is the enemy.

    Yeah, the enemy that many of you guys worship and want to emulate.

    Would it make you guys happier to learn my ex-fiance was a grad student in a biological science, had an IQ of about 165 and had published research papers. I doubt recall him ever having won at a science fair, but he was no frat guy, football player. In childhood pictures, he resembles Milhouse from “The Simpsons.”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yeah, the enemy that many of you guys worship and want to emulate.

    Not I.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    J,

    I’m not criticizing you personally. Sorry if you took it that way. I was just pointing out that it’s not so easy to just move on in many cases. Your case seems to be different. And really, I don’t know most of the details about it, so I can’t comment on it one way or another–and I wasn’t trying to comment on your personal history.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Wow you came to your senses? Good for you.
    Now just go get the good guy thats been sitting there waiting patiently while you fucked some alpha.
    Excuse me while I puke.

    Lokland,

    Sorry, I did not intend to make you sick with my comment. However, it is not my or any other woman’s fault that the “good guys” decided to just sit and wait. No one is stopping them from going for the women they desire–other than themselves–period.

  • Escoffier

    In SMP terms, “alpha” is for men what looks are for women: traits that trigger visceral reaction regardless of the attractee’s character, education, and concious thoughts.

    No one would advise a man to marry a woman simply because she is beautiful, ignoring everything else. And we would all agree that any man who did so would be an idiot. And would probable end up miserable. However, neither would most of us advise a man to marry a woman “perfect” in every respect but whom he found ugly or plain. Both parties are going to end up unhappy.

    Sensible women need to learn to see alpha the same way. Accept that it will always be a visceral attraction trigger. Don’t marry based on that alone. But also don’t marry someone you believe lacks those traits entirely, even if in every other respect your brain tells you that he is “perfect for you.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But also don’t marry someone you believe lacks those traits entirely, even if in every other respect your brain tells you that he is “perfect for you.”

      Moderation in all things.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    I have to say I’m feeling frustrated with the alpha/beta dichotomy here, it doesn’t work. Let’s discuss specific traits if you want to continue talking about this.

    Okay, this:

    Alpha: Dominant guy, leader in school/career, in possession of resources, athlete or at least one of those “amazing” athletic bodies, dripping in confidence and finesse, has multiple opportunities romantic and otherwise.

    On the other hand, though he’s not evil, he’s not very concerned with others, whether with their happiness or their suffering (except as it relates to him). His only true interests are those which relate to him and his status–in other words he doesn’t find the world beyond his own needs and desires very engaging. His primary interest is himself–and his success.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      On the other hand, though he’s not evil, he’s not very concerned with others, whether with their happiness or their suffering (except as it relates to him). His only true interests are those which relate to him and his status–in other words he doesn’t find the world beyond his own needs and desires very engaging. His primary interest is himself–and his success.

      Unfortunately, I think you have just described the majority of people.

      I think it’s fair and reasonable to judge someone based on the company they kept in the past or their past behavior. Did they choose to date an asshole? Why? Were they in the habit of hooking up with sluts? Why? I think that’s much more important than whether an ex was good looking, or had an amazing body, or even if they were confident, a proxy for dominance. I’d rather my partner have a relationship history with a beautiful woman of good character than with a trashy, slutty type who cheated repeatedly on him. And the reason I would care is because it tells me something about his character.

  • J

    I know you’ve moved on but I just want to say that it’s this notion of imprinting that is the real canard.

    And that’s just it. If a guy tells me that he has an emotional need to be the first, I can accept that. If he tells me that he has to feel that way because of something the three Ro’s have deluded him into thinking that I feel, then I have to call BS.

    Also, I cosign your remarks regarding the large number of girls who sit on the shelf in college. I was not a social-social kind of gal, but rather I was introverted, highly motivated to do well in school, and very intellectual. That scared a lot of guys away, which hurt and discouraged me until I realized that I needed to demonstrate warmth and to actively pursue a particular demographic as opposed to just waiting to be noticed by Mr. Right

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “High SMV women are likely to have been pursued by alpha males. They may have all been evil cads, or maybe not. Some of those women have dated alphas, and liked it.”

    Yes. I also like sluts. Big fan, make my penis feel good.
    I don’t expect everyone else to cheer and be happy for me nor accept my decision.

    Also, there is a dichotomy where men will screw the HB10 but date and marry the HB6-7. Reasons become readily apparent when you present it in this light.

    Also, beta is desirable. Alpha is attractive.

    Much like women, hot is hot. Feminine is desirable.
    Being extremely feminine but looking like a troll won’t work.

    Beta is the male version of looking like a troll with a heart of gold.

    Both are essential for long term.

    However, when your telling the troll with a heart of gold that you want what he is not and then expecting him to somehow want to marry you is beyond me.

    @Lisa

    “No one is stopping them from going for the women they desire–other than themselves–period.”

    Or the women who continually say no. But yeah other than that I’ll agree a large portion is in their head.

  • Escoffier

    “However, it is not my or any other woman’s fault that the ‘good guys’ decided to just sit and wait. No one is stopping them from going for the women they desire–other than themselves–period.”

    Sorry, it is at least partially woman-kind’s fault. If women didn’t mercilessly mock betas, indulge in “nuclear rejections,” overestimate their SMV and short the SMV of various betas, and otherwise make approaching so nervewracking for non-alphas, then maybe more betas might approach.

    Beyond this, it is the nature of betas to be more reticent. So your statement amounts to “It’s not our fault that betas are not alphas, no one is stopping them from being alpha.” Well, no one but their innate natures and personalities. The mission of the game bloggers is to take those betas who want to become alphas and help them do it. I gather you welcome that?

  • J

    Let me help with this:

    Woman, no relationship, make out.
    Men, no relationship, no make out.

    Woman, no relationship, make out=being used. I think in today’s SMP, it appears to young women that choice is between being lonely and being used. That’s why we have so many loony girls getting so drunk. They need to convince themselves that they are having a great time being used.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    They need to convince themselves that they are having a great time being used.

    For the girls that are hooking up, probably. But a girl who’s done that doesn’t sound like such a great relationship bet, does she?

  • Lokland

    @J

    And trying to tell the guy who never got to use anybody that you realized you didn’t like being used is the same as slapping him in the face, kicking him in the nuts and then pissing on him.

  • Escoffier

    I am about through my second read of the much-maligned “I Am Charlotte Simmons.” This book is now eight years old. I wonder how much the SMP has changed, if at all.

    Anyway, if Wolfe is right, then it’s wrong to say that these girls are being used, at least in the sense that they don’t know what they are doing. Charlotte herself is the rare/unique case (in the book). All the other girls plunge in head-first, willingly, enthusiastically.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      All the other girls plunge in head-first, willingly, enthusiastically.

      As I recall, doesn’t he focus on the Greek scene? There’s the sorority chicks, and there’s her roommate Beverly, who wants to be a sorority chick. Wolfe is only describing that portion of the student body (20%) that’s doing all the hooking up. Charlotte is indeed an outlier in the book, but I believe her story occurs regularly in a less dramatic form. For example, many freshmen girls don’t know that going away for a frat weekend formal implies tacit agreement to have sex.

  • Sassy6519

    So now even having dated an alpha or two is a bad thing?

    I’m screwed then.

  • J

    It doesn’t matter. Its like trying to convince me fat chicks are hot or slut will make good wives. Its wired into the hind brain.

    OK, I’m fine with that. I’m really not trying to discount your feelings. My problem is the ‘sphere’s trying to convince me that I feel things that I simply don’t feel. It’s not you personally.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sassy,

    It’s not a bad thing if you ultimately want to end up with an alpha.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    It’s not a bad thing if you ultimately want to end up with an alpha.

    I might be fine then.

    I wonder if even alpha males care whether or not a woman they date has dated other alpha males.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Escoffier,

    I get the frustration of beta guys. I really do. I also get a little impatient with them at times. However, my frustration is not that I want them to be alphas per se. I just want them to get out of their own heads and take more risks when it comes to pursuing women. I just don’t think it is necessary for them to morph themselves into alphas or whatever in order to do so. That’s all.

  • J

    Your story is the best case scenario, which is to say an alpha really screwed your life up for awhile, and you learned to avoid them.

    LOL. Best case for whom? I cut off my hair off and quit dating for two years, so great was my distrust in my ability to pick out good men.

    Many women NEVER learn that lesson.

    As someone who has compared notes with many women, I’d beg to differ with that. I don’t know many who DON’T have a story like mine.

  • http://T SayWhaat

    That’s not how hooking up works, JM. What happens is the girl goes to a party, gets really tipsy, chats with friends and this cute (beta/alpha, take your pick) guy, makes out with him, gives him her number, and then never hears from him again. THAT is being used.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I wonder if even alpha males care whether or not a woman they date has dated other alpha males.

    My guess is that guys who are high in alpha traits and low in beta ones will care very little about either your thoughts or history–unless one of them affects your (and, as a result, his) reputation.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    THAT is being used.

    Meh, maybe the first time it happens it’s being used.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan – “Well that’s a shame for those men, because very few will be able to fully transition to alpha asshat, and like it. Most people aren’t cut out to be narcissistic sociopaths, red pill or not.”

    You are preaching to the choir if that comment is directed at me. I fully agree that most men are NOT cut out for full on alphadom, but it sure as hell looks better than where they currently are. Couple that with a generation of guys with far less moral baggage, and you have a possible mess. And I think it is a male tendency to want to completely destroy the old and build the new on its crumbled remains. For me, it would have been far easier to simply give up on my entire outlook regarding relationships and women, and just jump full into “game”. However I know that *I* would have been miserable in short time, whether I was successful or not. And as much as I complain of the difficulty, being in a LTR at the time certainly played a huge role in my decision to make minor changes instead of a full on rebuild. JM’s venture into casual encounters turned out similarly, but without actually knowing his age, I would say that he as a very good grasp of his own motivations and hangups, so it was easy for him to clearly see that it wasn’t his way. Again, most people simply are NOT introspective enough to figure it out, and even if they would be miserable on the casual carousel, at least it is misery with lots of sex, which is by far better than misery without. As long as you don’t have that nagging morality to worry about…

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    Yeah, I can see that being the case.

    I think it depends on a man’s makeup. I do want a man to have some beta traits, but I want him to have significantly more alpha traits.

    Roughly, the ideal for me would be 75% Alpha, 25% Beta.

  • http://T SayWhaat

    Escoffier, don’t paint women with that blanket generalization about “nuclear rejections” and shit. That’s bullshit fabricated by the manosphere tomake women a scapegoat for their own shortcomings.

  • J

    JM–Sorry if I came off as offended. I didn’t think you were dealing with me personally and I didn’t mean to impy that you personally hero-worship alphas. I just wanted to comment in general about the irony of “betas” both hating and wanting to be “alphas.”

  • Ramble

    That’s not how hooking up works, JM. What happens is the girl goes to a party, gets really tipsy, chats with friends and this cute (beta/alpha, take your pick) guy, makes out with him, gives him her number, and then never hears from him again. THAT is being used.

    No, that is playing a particular “game”, and not liking the outcome.

    Think of it another way.

    Some girl, over the course of, say, 3 years, makes out with 12 guys, giving (or being asked for) her number to 8 of them, 5 calling her, 3 seeming cool and 1 great relationship.

    Was she used by the 3 that did not call?

    Did she use the 4 she did not give her number to?

    What about getting their numbers and calling them?

    What about the guys that she dated but did not suck/fuck? Were they used?

    It is a game. Not all outcomes are pleasing to all players.

  • Mike C

    ****I’m interested in what other guys think****: do others see the “pure alpha” as a sort of

    enemy or opponent–someone playing for an entirely different team?

    Jesus, you are usually the first to question the entire notion of alpha vs beta, so I’m really not sure what you mean by “pure alpha”. I think it is useful to talk of alpha vs beta traits and behaviors, but I’m not sure how to tell the difference between a “pure alpha” and a guy who is 97.314159% alpha and a guy who is 88.756748943% alpha.

    If you asked me this question in high school, I would have probably answered yes, they are my enemies and opponents, but even then I can recall 2 specific guys who were most definitely alpha (big-time jocks and super popular with the top girls), but cool guys in that they didn’t seem to partake in making fun of nerds/unpopular guys (which I was in high school).

    There is that video of the Australian guy who threw the big bash being interviewed on TV (Cory I think is his name). Do I think he is an asshole? Yes. Do I think he is an idiot? Yes. Do I think he is my enemy? No.

    Just my personal experience, but I’ve had two separate positive experiences with guys who were very alpha. The first was a group of guys I met right out of college at the gym as I was trying to remake my physical appearance. They were cool to me, and made me part of their group. The second experience was with the head bouncer when I started that job soon after my divorce. For whatever reason, he took an interest in me and getting me back on my feet in the game. I was often scheduled with him as part of a 2 man crew on weeknights (I think the manager thought I needed to work with a big-time hard ass) so we would have alot of time to get in conversations, and he would coach me on stuff. I remember the first time I got laid after the divorce, he seemed like a proud father. So it is hard for me to view guys who are very alpha as my enemies or opponents. That said, these guys definitely had some “asshole” qualities about them, and I heard some stories about stuff that definitely crossed some moral boundaries in my mind.

    In contrast, based on what you’ve shared here, it sounds like you had a nightmarish, horrific experience with an “alpha” with your brother who sounds like a sociopath based on the incidents you’ve described. Based on that personal experience, it makes sense to me you would see “alphas” as the enemy and find repulsive any attraction to a guy who demonstrated those behaviors.

    Anyways, that is my answer to your question.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Sassy – “I wonder if even alpha males care whether or not a woman they date has dated other alpha males.”

    Nope. They all believe they are God’s gift to you, so your previous lovers are irrelevant.

    J – “Your story is the best case scenario, which is to say an alpha really screwed your life up for awhile, and you learned to avoid them.

    LOL. Best case for whom? I cut off my hair off and quit dating for two years, so great was my distrust in my ability to pick out good men.
    Many women NEVER learn that lesson.

    As someone who has compared notes with many women, I’d beg to differ with that. I don’t know many who DON’T have a story like mine.”

    First off, best case for you. It may have caused you a few years of misery, but you learned.

    Those women you compared notes with where what age? I’m basing much of my opinion off of my 18yo daughter’s friends here. Those girls aren’t learning this lesson, despite being screwed over by asshats repeatedly. Hell one of them just told my daughter she is pregnant to some 25yo thug from the “hood”. She just turned 18 last summer, and now has to face life as a single mother. She is cute, smart, and I had hoped immune to assholean behavior. Alas she has proven that she is not.

    And last, my apologies if I came across as harsh. I am only basing my comments on the information you provided. I certainly didn’t intend to minimize any emotional trauma caused by some asshole in your life. But all things considered, I still stand by my statement that you were smart enough to figure it out.

  • http://T SayWhaat

    JM, that’s the general script that puts women at a huge disadvantage. If she doesn’t even make out with the guy, she’s communicating disinterest *according to the rules of this SMP*. Maybe an AMOG can claim to not follow and make his own rules, but alpha and beta women alike don’t have that luxury.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Yeah that’s the sad fact, isn’t it. People don’t know the difference between freedom and having nothing of importance.

    One of my acquaintances in Facebook just broke up her 19 years old marriage to find herself (she is still friends with her husband and talks good things about him so this was obviously an EPL case, IMO) and is filling her page almost every hour with this absurd quotes about freedom and happiness and other feel good masturbation quotes. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad. I pity her girls they seem to be really nice but they already have a strong message about how much a marriage should last: till you feel like it.

  • Ramble

    That’s bullshit fabricated by the manosphere tomake women a scapegoat for their own shortcomings.

    Whoa.

    SayWhat, I can often agree with much of what you say, but, here, I think that you are off base.

    I am sure that the sphere exaggerates the percentage of approached end in “nuclear” rejections, but…

    Really Bad Rejections are a very real thing.
    Girls crowding together and laughing at some poor schmuck is very real.
    Referring to any guy that does not know what he is doing as creepy is very real.
    Having an education system absolutely favor one sex over another, to feed those students into a workplace with openly sexist (in favor of girls) hiring practices, and then have those girls make fun of guys for living in his mothers proverbial basement (while, they, themselves, are ACTUALLY living at home with their parents) is downright fucked up.

  • http://T SayWhaat

    Ted, 18yo is still very young. They are making mistakes and are in the process of learning from them. You can’t fault them for stumbling when they’re young. If they were 30, that would be a different story.

  • Herb

    @JM

    Telling guys who came of age and formed their identities at a time when they had little status and resources–or amazing bodies to compensate–that they’ll have their day 5 or so years after college isn’t going to work. It’s true, but those men don’t want to be loved for their status. They’ve learned to value themselves for different things–they had to. The idea that women are going to start liking them for the status they’ll achieve later on in life doesn’t sit right with a lot of men.

    Not to mention it may not be true.

    If I wanted to claim the biggest lie my parents told me as I was the “outsider” and “loser” in HS was that my day would come.

    Some of us are just not built in ways we’ll ever fit in and be overly wanted. If we were told that from the beginning we’d probably be less bitter in the end.

  • Escoffier

    saywhaat, of couse NAWALT, etc., but 1) Betas are already naturally reticent so it’s not reasonable to expect them to be approaching all the time even if the risks were low and 2) That stuff does happen and it gets around, which only increases their reticence.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    And another thing, alphas get their fair share of rejection as well. You cannot go up to women you do not know and say, “Hey baby, you have a nice ass” or some other obnoxious rude thing and expect that they are going to fall all over you.

  • Ramble

    Mike C,
    The best example of the example you gave was the Vince Vaughan character in Swingers.

    Guys love to see “good” guys succeed.

    One great example of how this might play out is when the younger “beta” starts getting depressive, or down on himself, and the “alpha” with, both, love and tough-love, tells him to Shut The Fuck Up.

    Smacks him out of his bullshit depressive musings and “wakes” him up to what can be a great reality.

    This is how men “Pass It On”.

  • Ramble

    You cannot go up to women you do not know and say, “Hey baby, you have a nice ass” or some other obnoxious rude thing and expect that they are going to fall all over you.

    This is almost exactly what Arnold Schwarzenegger said to Maria Shriver’s mother (a well known liberal).

    It worked out well for him…until it didn’t.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    SW – “Ted, 18yo is still very young. They are making mistakes and are in the process of learning from them. You can’t fault them for stumbling when they’re young. If they were 30, that would be a different story.”

    OH I agree, but it seems that they are starting to get ‘sexual’ younger, so if they don’t figure it out by the time they GO TO college, it looks like they can get into a lot of trouble. And, when I say that they have been getting screwed over by asshats, I mean since like 9th grade. The unfortunate effect of all this early sexual activity is: there is NO room for “young and naive” anymore. Of course, as I said elsewhere, I imagine much of what I see is directly related to the SES of the area I live in, where there are far more poorer people than middle/upper-class. When I say the “hood”, I actually mean an area of town where people regularly get shot/mugged/raped/beaten/etc. I don’t live there, but those areas aren’t too far away, and these guys LOVE to troll the “softer” school districts looking for young girls that are easily impressed into bed, that they can avoid easily afterwards.

    It breaks my heart that this young woman has completely derailed her plans to go to nursing school, and is now looking at how to apply for assistance, since her parents kicked her out for getting “knocked up”. Great world we live in…

  • http://T SayWhaat

    Okay, Ramble, how is playing the game and not liking the outcome any different from guys NOT playing the game due to their own insecurities and then resenting women and other men for it?

    Re: nuclear rejections, it’s your anecdotal experience vs mine. And IME, most women want to avoid causing any kind of scene whatsoever.

  • Ramble

    Some of us are just not built in ways we’ll ever fit in and be overly wanted. If we were told that from the beginning we’d probably be less bitter in the end.

    Herb, could you imagine telling some 18 yo girl that, even if she lost those 15 lbs, she is still not likely to be all that pretty?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    JM, that’s the general script that puts women at a huge disadvantage. If she doesn’t even make out with the guy, she’s communicating disinterest *according to the rules of this SMP*. Maybe an AMOG can claim to not follow and make his own rules, but alpha and beta women alike don’t have that luxury.

    Sure, but the current script generally puts decent guys at a disadvantage as well, because if they don’t convey a good deal of “alpha” behavior, if they don’t escalate immediately, for example, and hint at a bit of arrogance, or display a lot of pre-selection, they get nowhere. The hook up script only validates “alpha” displays of interest. You can’t give a pass to the women and not the men.

  • J

    Lokland #339

    I’m not going to have a fruitless argument with you regarding who gets hurt more in this SMP. All I’m going to say is that sometimes the smartest thing is to let go, cut your losses, shower off the piss and move on.

    That’s not my attempt to trump you in a debate. It’s just my attempt to give you some helpful advice. You can’t get whatever it is (a blanket apology from all women on the behalf of those who provided previous bad experiences?) that you are looking for. Sadly, it doesn’t exist.

    I could push you to apologize on the behalf of all men for my ex; I could apologize for your previous bad experiences–but, in the end, we’d both have exactly nothing. The best thing I ever did for myself was to shrug it off, learn to be a better picker and go out and build a life for myself. Living well really is the best revenge.

  • Ramble

    Okay, Ramble, how is playing the game and not liking the outcome any different from guys NOT playing the game due to their own insecurities and then resenting women and other men for it?

    You are taking two different issues and attempting to relate them.

    I am saying that your definition of “used” was wrong. They were not used, they simply did not like the outcome of a game they were playing.

    Whether or not that is analogous to guys getting humiliated upon rejection is another issue.

    Re: nuclear rejections, it’s your anecdotal experience vs mine. And IME, most women want to avoid causing any kind of scene whatsoever.

    Whoa, again. I listed out more things than just the Nuclear rejections, which I stipulated is probably exaggerated in the ‘Sphere.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    It sounds Anacoana knew what she wanted and aimed for it, and is, now, pretty happy.

    Thanks I am I will like to add that aside from a natural repulsion to asshole’s behaviour I do have a lot of insight on casual sex and men at least Dominican men.
    I was friends with many of this guys and they spent quite some time making clear that all the girls that opened their legs to them without asking any commitment in return upfront were considered low lives by them. The sense I got is that they though the world of me (and they did God knows why I was pretty harsh with them when the theme of their sexcapades came around) was because I wasn’t fucking them. So the idea that is just a good time with no implications whatsoever, sorry I don’t buy that, never seen it even with the guys that got a really hottie and try to make it more there was this contempt in their treatment of them and eventually something broke them of.
    Another thing is that my little brother hated sluts as much as I hated manwhores and he never actually even sexed them up no matter how much they threw themselves at him and I was there because we used to work together, so I realized that a man can lose respect for a woman and not want to get his dick wet on her at the same time. It was a good thing because many of my male friends told me that a man can’t help it. Manosphere guys seem to preach the same concept of I wanted her but now that she showed slut tells I will just bang her for a few times and leave her ASAP and this might be the majority but really I don’t want a man that has such idea about sex. If men hate the Alpha in their women’s past some women can hate the sluts in their man past too.
    I also had a couple of friends that got disappointed on their wives when they asked or performed sexual acts some sluts did in their marriages, they automatically bumped them in the slut ladder even if they were virgin when they meet and from them on the relationship just went downhill to actively cheating and divorce.
    So there is always the fear that if he has a strong laddering complex one day you are going to be too slutty for him not to make assumptions about what kind of woman you would had been if he would had come into your life later and from them then on you are screwed up.
    Again all this are my observations and insight I know that Dominican men are fucked up in the head but I really do think manosphere don’t has a lot of samples of men swimming in punani, given the circumstances to see the long term repercussions of indulging on their variety instinct I did and it ain’t prettier than when women are unleashed sexually. Sex is a powerful instinct in our species and it can be more destructive than many people realize, YMMV.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mike C,

    Yes, my brother’s a sociopath.

    It sounds as if the thing that bonded you to those men was not their alpha behavior, but their beta behavior: they took you under their wings. In other aspects of their lives, they may have been ultra-alpha, but in terms of your relationships with them, it sounds as if there was a good deal of beta stuff going on.

  • http://T SayWhaat

    Escoffier, was the manosphere the first place that introduced you to the term “nuclear rejection”? It’s an overblown meme, and it is not the fault of other women if men are afraid to approach. I will certainly (and I have) made it easy for people to approach me, but refusing to approach is your own damn fault. I say this as a woman who has been approached and has also done her fair share of initiating. The latter only serves to place me on an accelerated sexual timeline, which I did not want.

  • J

    No offense taken, Ted, though I appreciate your consideration for my feelings.

    My “data” comes from a lifetime of listening to other women’s stories. Probably most have been my age, but I’m the neighborhood “hip mom.” My friends’ college age daughters like to talk to me. Most women do learn from bad experiences. In all age groups, there tend to be a few diehards who insist on neurotically making the same mistakes over and over again. The older ones seem to be conscious of what they are doing, but powerless to stop–that’s sort of the defining trait of a neurotic though.

  • Lokland

    @J

    “It’s just my attempt to give you some helpful advice.”

    Don’t need it.
    “You can’t get whatever it is (a blanket apology from all women on the behalf of those who provided previous bad experiences?) that you are looking for. Sadly, it doesn’t exist. ”

    Don’t need it. I’ve never had a bad experience wrt relationships (excluding a period of lonliness in high scool).

    I only care about the men don’t have emotions meme and its implications for the SMP.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    J, nah, let’s not think of living well as revenge. I prefer to just move on, learn from the past, forgive, and be happy.

    Focus on the positive, not the negative. That’s my mantra these days.

  • Escoffier

    The term, yes, but the reality, no. I was only personally blown out a couple of times because I hated approaching and almost never did it but I witnessed it or had it described to me many times.

    And now we have the Internet in which some poor sap’s humiliation need not end where it starts but is memorialized for all time by girls who think it’s cute to tell the story online. Didn’t have to face that in my youth, thank God.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      And now we have the Internet in which some poor sap’s humiliation need not end where it starts but is memorialized for all time by girls who think it’s cute to tell the story online.

      And you don’t think guys do this? Did you ever read Roosh’s story about rawdogging another blogger (by name) on a bus in DC? Not to mention the field reports that regularly pop up on all these PUA sites. And the white board in every frat house with a chart listing sex acts on one axis and all the girls they know on the other. Or – here’s a good one – the 80% of amateur sex video that pops up online without the woman’s knowledge?

  • Ramble

    The sense I got is that they though the world of me (and they did God knows why I was pretty harsh with them when the theme of their sexcapades came around) was because I wasn’t fucking them.

    They respected you.

    “Like” is the currency of Girls.

    “Respect” is the currency of Guys.

  • Mike C

    Same goes for really handsome guys. I’m not ugly, but I’m no Brad Pitt. If my SO’s past lovers were mostly pretty boys, I would feel VERY intimidated of them regardless of how

    she tells me she feels about me. Her feelings aren’t the point, it is the fact that she sampled some goods that I can’t reproduce. If she ever wants those good again, it will

    have to come from a different supplier, and of course that would be a problem.

    Ted,

    This gets to the concept of revealed preference. I’m hesitant to bring up any of the personal examples discussed in this thread, as it becomes impossible to discuss it academically without the person being personally attacked, but I think it is important to observe what a person has done rather than what they say. I do think it is one thing for a woman to have had say 1 or even 2 relationships with a certain type of guy, realize that “type” isn’t for her, and go for a totally different type of guy. It is quite another if she has had multiple relationships and/or hookups with one type and than switches to another. Then you’ve got to question what is motivating the switch as you point out.

  • http://T SayWhaat

    JM, I would argue that’s another pretty red lie fed to men by the manosphere. I never needed aggressive escalation, arrogance, etc. All in one go before I made up my mind about a guy. The current script is not putting decent guys at a disadvantage. If they put just one foot in the game they would be free to ignore texts from any girl they chose to make out with.

  • Herb

    I am going to take a guess at this, because I don’t feel the same way. But, I think many men have little sympathy for such women because they feel that if the women really wanted some attention, all she would have to do is go to any bar and openly profess her desire for it, and she would have more than she wants. Never mind that the attention she would get isn’t the kind she wants, she still has an easier time of getting ANY attention than your average invisible beta dude.

    This…

    Or, perhaps a better way to put it.

    We have a fat guy and a fat chick.

    We’re happy to tell the fat guy he needs to get in shape to get attention so the fact he isn’t is his fault.

    We tell the fat chick it’s men’s fault for not being willing to see past the fat to their personality.

    Hell, I’ve seen that dichotomy in what my sister has told me versus female friends much heavier than me (and unlike me, they didn’t train for and do a 500m/5k aquathon with her).

    It has less to do with the fact those women go no more attention than we did than the fact they’re told they were wronged and we’re told it’s our fault.

    Did those girls approach men and get shot down? We did.
    Did those girls spend money on dates that went no where? We did.

    You say you miss Badger Susan. Perhaps you should go back to one of his best writings, on the approach cost disparity between men and women. I think that’s what drives a lot of the disdain beta men have for “beta” girls. They suffered the same fate as us but we had to pay upfront for the privilege.

    For the long discussion of fear of the alpha. I think most of the women forget most men know at least one guy like me that thought they found a woman who wanted them but once that woman thought she could pull alpha the beta husband got abandoned.

    See that enough and you grow that fear. Ask any shrink: paranoia is a learned behavior.

  • J

    Ana,

    I hate to see a longterm marriage break-up. You say they are still friends. Did the husband want to break up as well?

    DH and I are friends with a couple who broke up after 22 years. DH still plays music with the husband as do all our sons. I still see the wife. She has a new bf. Her ex dates around. Everyone appears deliriously except DH and I who are pissed about the break up. They let us down.

  • J

    You’re right, Hope. (re revenge)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Saywhaat,

    Idk. You could be right–I’m not sure. My experience with trying to pick up girls in bars and clubs is limited.

  • Herb

    @Liza

    I just want them to get out of their own heads and take more risks when it comes to pursuing women. I just don’t think it is necessary for them to morph themselves into alphas or whatever in order to do so. That’s all.

    At what point can they say they’ve taken enough risk.

    Not one interested woman out of 23 at speed dating.
    Over 100 emails on OkCupid, Match.com, and eHarmony with just two responses (and not spam, but emails, over 20 written with a paid dating coach), only one lead to a date, and she was married in an open relationship (so, sure, nudge and tickle but LTR isn’t there).
    Multiple nights as the wingman.
    Divorce because she could get better.

    Sure, those are my personal example, but all but the last are pretty representative of what beta guys go through before they give up. You don’t start shelling out $1000+ to Vince Lin or Mystery for a weekend seminar because you were lonely. You do it because you feel like a rejected loser and rejection requires you having taken a shot to begin with.

    (btw, your avatar isn’t helping you make any argument to beta guys)

  • Herb

    @Ramble

    Herb, could you imagine telling some 18 yo girl that, even if she lost those 15 lbs, she is still not likely to be all that pretty?

    Yes…in fact, I’m prepared to tell my nephew and my neicphew that if and when the time comes.

    If someone had told me in 5th grade that you could either start liking sports and TV and all that and be accepted or continue to be a loser now and always will be I would have had the choice to change.

    Instead I got told to be myself and one day you’ll find people like you and have the friends and popularity everyone else has. So I kept being myself instead of changing myself.

    Now I’m 45 and know better. I think it’s a sin let kids learn that too late for them to make a choice.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    For the long discussion of fear of the alpha.

    Do people really fear the alpha? I don’t like to hear that. The only thing that gives the alpha his power is the fear, respect, admiration, and attraction that people have for him.

    I don’t fear alpha–I just hold him in contempt.

  • http://T SayWhaat

    JM, it happens at apt parties too. For those with a semblance of a social life.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    You’d think a girl would just find a different scene then, one that she didn’t feel required her to make out with strangers she may never see again.

  • http://T SayWhaat

    That’s the point, JM! There’s no requirement. But if she makes out with that cute guy who is awkwardly standing near the wall because she thinks he’s cute and has interesting things to say, and ends up getting dumped for not letting him escalate all the way, or worse, escalating because she has feelings and goes into “gf mode” around him, only to get dumped regardless of which scenario she chose to pursue…that is being used.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Oh okay. My bad. I thought you were defending the girls who feel used.

  • Lokland

    @Saywhaat

    Your parties sound like this set I used to go to in college. Its where we went when you really just wanted to get laid.

    If you can’t find a party that doesn’t involve making out with some random you are doing it wrong.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    You didn’t consider cuckolding and its effect on male evolution.

  • Lokland

    I think women underestimate how important HB is to men.

    If you get a real HB10, no woman will ever feel the same.
    Theres a reason men can go slumming.

  • http://T SayWhaat

    Lokland, no one goes to those parties intending to hook up. They go to have a good time with friends, and to be open to the opportunity that someone cute that they haven’t met before will be there.

  • Ramble

    Yes…in fact, I’m prepared to tell my nephew and my neicphew that if and when the time comes.

    Herb, why would you tell your niece that she is ugly?

    Again, we are talking about a girl (in my original example) who is NOT fat. (And, even if she were overweight, I am not sure it is the place of the uncle to tell her that). There is not much she can do about, say, an asymmetrical face and an unattractive body shape.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Unfortunately, I think you have just described the majority of people.

    That’s sad. That would mean that by my standards, the majority of people aren’t relationship material. And if that represents the majority, then you have to figure that a decent amount of the remaining minority would have had LTRs with at least some of those people. So, yea, I guess most people aren’t relationship material by my standards.

    I think it’s fair and reasonable to judge someone based on the company they kept in the past or their past behavior.

    Me too.

    Did they choose to date an asshole? Why? Were they in the habit of hooking up with sluts? Why? I think that’s much more important than whether an ex was good looking, or had an amazing body, or even if they were confident, a proxy for dominance.

    True, I’m sure there are some good looking people with natural confidence and amazing bodies who have good character, some depth, etc… Yet, I think such people are sighted about as often as the chupacabra.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, the frat scene is part of the focus but not the whole focus. There are also the basketball and lacrosse groupies. Presumably the other athletes have groupies but they are not depicted. Then you have the general run of freshmen who seem mostly into the scene. Then you have lots of other girls who want to be part of the scene but can’t generate male interest. “The trolls” and “the Lounge Committee”, remember them? When one of the latter (Charlotte) generates interest from a hot guy they all become insanely envious.

    Overall, Wolfe depicts a lot of “feral females” (I believe that was Dalrock’s term). Girls on the hunt. E.g., the way he describes the main library. Now, this may well be overdrawn. I hope it is.

    Anyway, what he describes goes well beyond the Greek scene though the frats were the epicenter.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      The hookup scene generally is focused on Greeks and athletes. The women are usually comprised of groupies and sorority girls. In the years since I have read CS, I have been convinced that it is representative of those subcultures within universities. Duke did its own internal study and concluded that only 10% of its student body was actively and regularly participating in hookup culture.

      The description is not overdrawn, but one should not extrapolate to the whole student body.

  • Herb

    @Ramble

    Herb, why would you tell your niece that she is ugly?

    Again, we are talking about a girl (in my original example) who is NOT fat. (And, even if she were overweight, I am not sure it is the place of the uncle to tell her that). There is not much she can do about, say, an asymmetrical face and an unattractive body shape.

    “Honey, I love you but no matter what you do men are going to see you as a 4 at best. You can have a perfect personalty but the odds of a man approaching you are pretty much zero. You are better off preparing for a life alone than believing that one day the guy who sees the real you and doesn’t care about your looks will come along. Even if he does exist there are more girls like you than guys like me so the odds are against you.”

    As if it is my place as her uncle, is it worse for me to step out of place than to let her pine away believing in Santa year after year despite no presents under the tree?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      For the love of God don’t say that to your niece. It’s not your place to tell her there’s no Santa, and besides, maybe a male 4 will come along and snap her up.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Herb,

    I get what you are saying. In my last comment, I gave an example of how alpha male, asshole or whatever, who approach women randomly. Men like these on many occasions have approached me and what most of them have in common is that they do not give a shit about the outcome. If I go for it fine or if I don’t fine, so what, he will just move on to another chick and just keep doing the same thing until he gets a taker. And yeah, sometimes the women are rude when rejecting them. But, to most of them, it is just a numbers game. Most of them did not attend PUA seminars, boot camps, or whatever. They don’t think they just act therefore, they don’t have time to contemplate whether or not a woman is going to reject them.

    The more you approach the easier it becomes and it helps to detach yourself from the outcome. Moreover, if a woman is rude when rejecting you, so what, she doesn’t know you personally and you’re in a social atmosphere (bar, club and so on) where that is happening to others guys because that is what happens in those places all night.

    I also want to add that you don’t have to become some rude obnoxious guy when approaching women. Like I said, it is a numbers game; the more you it the more it becomes just like breathing.

    This is just my view of the situation.

    So, you see my avatar as a contradiction. LOL! How do you know he is not a beta male or a good guy? His being good-looking automatically makes him an alpha?

  • Ramble

    And you don’t think guys do this? Did you ever read Roosh’s story about rawdogging another blogger (by name) on a bus in DC? Not to mention the field reports that regularly pop up on all these PUA sites. And the white board in every frat house with a chart listing sex acts on one axis and all the girls they know on the other. Or – here’s a good one – the 80% of amateur sex video that pops up online without the woman’s knowledge?

    re: Fratboys

    Susan,
    You had some experience with frats and frat boys when you were in school, did you see that kind of stuff back then. I knew quite a few guys in frats, and some of them were real dicks, but, shit, I never saw anything like that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      No, I never saw anything like that. I think there’s been a large deterioration in college culture in the 30+ years since I went. In fact, back in the late 70s we still had assortative mating, and people paired off pretty efficiently without much fuss. ONSs were something we heard about in novels, but never indulged in ourselves. Being a slut back then made on a social pariah. I recall one sorority had a reputation for being slutty, and that was for having a large number of girls who had sex at all, even in relationships. I was in a relationship 9 months before having sex.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, no, I didn’t know about any of that. Though I will say (gingerly) that for a girl to get to that point where a guy can make something like that public (which I agree, is pretty low), she must first have willingly engaged in something rather sordid herself. Whereas a mere approach is nothing of the sort. Moreover, we have here some women complaining that men don’t approach more. I don’t see men here complaining that women don’t accede to sex tapes more.

    The point is, there is something anti-tautological about complaining that betas don’t approach more. If they approached more, they wouldn’t be betas, or if they weren’t betas, they would approach more. Further, the “remedy” to the extent that one exists is for betas to learn game and transform themselves (to the extent possible) into alphas. Is that really what Liz wants? Sounds like she wants betas to remain betas (I guess because she doesn’t want the risk or the drama of an alpha) but become confident and approach her without any trepidation because overt betatuide is unattracive. I.e., have cake + eat it.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    JM – “That’s sad. That would mean that by my standards, the majority of people aren’t relationship material.”

    LOL man, welcome to my world. :P

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I should add that if a woman’s dated men like that in the past, but changed since, then I could overlook it, but dishing about how hot a guy like that is would make my blood run cold. She’d be attracted to the enemy as far as I’m concerned.

  • Herb

    @Liza

    The more you approach the easier it becomes and it helps to detach yourself from the outcome. Moreover, if a woman is rude when rejecting you, so what, she doesn’t know you personally and you’re in a social atmosphere (bar, club and so on) where that is happening to others guys because that is what happens in those places all night.

    I also want to add that you don’t have to become some rude obnoxious guy when approaching women. Like I said, it is a numbers game; the more you it the more it becomes just like breathing.

    Or he eventually decides to quit engaging in a sunk cost fallacy. At some point he’ll conclude it’s not worth playing.

    And women on this thread are blaming him then telling him to pity the girl who go no attention not because she went through what she did but because she never got in the game.

    That’s my problem. Want to tell men to man up and try one more time (after all, it’s only rejection) yet say “poor baby” about the girls who, as Susan put it “She’s the beta female – going to classes, has some girlfriends from the dorm, is mostly invisible to guys, or at least feels that way. Never gets singled out or invited out by the opposite sex. ”

    Why isn’t she asked why she never approached men? Why is her being invisible the fault of the beta guys who were at least out trying and thus somehow at fault for not getting attention.

    @Susan re: wanting the low ground

    Because maybe if women got that they could understand why at 30 we don’t want girls who couldn’t be bothered to even come out at 21 saying they always wanted us.

    Really, you did…could have fooled me.

    It just seems like more feminist bs: lonely men are at fault for not being desirable to women they did approach and they’re also at fault for women who are lonely even though the women never got out there.

    Then again, between the fact that everything the manosphere says about women is, according to female commentators, untrue we actually didn’t get rejected, our beta traits are more desirable than alpha traits, and apparently had tons of female attention and just now have Ros provided false consciousness.

    Lokland and Ted are right…women say men have no feelings or emotions so it must be true.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    And you don’t think guys do this? Did you ever read Roosh’s story about rawdogging another blogger (by name) on a bus in DC? Not to mention the field reports that regularly pop up on all these PUA sites. And the white board in every frat house with a chart listing sex acts on one axis and all the girls they know on the other. Or – here’s a good one – the 80% of amateur sex video that pops up online without the woman’s knowledge?

    So

    1. Men do it to other men, so men can’t be hurt by it
    2. Men do it to women, so men can’t be hurt by it.

    Are you willing to tell me the women that happens to aren’t hurt by it?

  • Lokland

    @Herb

    I know eh.

    Its our fault they can’t get a date, its our fault we can’t get a date, its our fault they had sex with a random stranger, if its us we’re a cad, if its not we’re an ass for not sweeping her off her feet before it happened.

    Essentially, you gooo grl and your penis makes you subhuman.

    Ohh Lisa, I have an actual written record of what nears 2000 approaches over 4-5 years. Your right, uber effective. Not so good for the emotions.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    It’s not your place to tell her there’s no Santa

    What? Most women are attracted to the enemy and there’s no Santa?

    Wow, this day just keeps getting better.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, the specific part that seemed overdrawn to me was that Wolfe makes out the girls to be almost more predatory than the boys. They are always described as on the prowl in one way or another whereas the boys usually are not. The library scene really struck me as maybe a bit much.

    I agree that on the male side, the hook-up scene is focused on frats and athletes but Wolfe shows that the females interested in those males outnumber the boys by a significant margin.

    He also describes a real feeling of longing, regret and “being left out” by the freshman girls who don’t enter the scene. Charlotte, Mimi and Bettina all want to be a part of it on some level. The only girl Wolfe shows who has genuine disinterest (loathing, really) is the leftist lesbian Camille. That brings up an interesting point which is not explored because the book ends. What about those freshman girls’ remaining three years? Do they ever get over that feeling, WITHOUT succumbing to hook-up culture, and manage to enjoy their time?

    Beyond that, he shows that those most into the scene are indeed miserable. Beverly is so miserable, and Charlotte witnesses her misery often, that whenever Charlotte envies her (which is often), I want to shake her and say “Look at the WRECK you are envying!” Beverly is not the only one in the book. Nicole is another one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Here’s a question for you – do you think Charlotte Simmons was a victim of Hoyt Thorpe? Or should she have known he was a cad? Who is responsible for the way she was treated?

  • Herb

    @Susan

    For the love of God don’t say that to your niece. It’s not your place to tell her there’s no Santa, and besides, maybe a male 4 will come along and snap her up.

    Take it from a 4, when it comes to an end, we wish someone had told us. It would spare us a ton of heart ache.

    Plus, I told her a male 4 might, but let’s be honest. In the world after assortive mating, much like the one before it, the bottom 60% of men won’t find mates (remember, the same literature you rely on shows historically only 40% of men had offspring). That’s why assortive mating is so important to maintaining civilization. It keeps the majority of men invested instead of not giving a shit.

    If you heard my inner monologue on bad days you’d know why large numbers of men who never have children is a bad thing. On good days we don’t care if the whole thing burns. On bad days we’re ready to help…after all, we’ve got nothing to lose and would at least have a little revenge.

    China will learn this hard in the coming decades. The US will get a milder version, but it’s coming.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Herb,

    “Or he eventually decides to quit engaging in a sunk cost fallacy. At some point he’ll conclude it’s not worth playing.”

    As I said, they keep going until they get a taker, there is no concluding because they aren’t living in their heads. Do you get my point?

    “And women on this thread are blaming him then telling him to pity the girl who go no attention not because she went through what she did but because she never got in the game.”

    I did say that beta guys often make the decision to sit quietly on the sidelines and they also start resorting to blaming women for not approaching them for sex and relationships.

    “Why isn’t she asked why she never approached men? Why is her being invisible the fault of the beta guys who were at least out trying and thus somehow at fault for not getting attention.”

    I have a friend like this who complains about men looking through especially hot men. Meanwhile, she is overweight and does not take good care of her appearance but is often mad at hot men for overlooking her. She expects me to cheer her on and validate her in this. But all she gets from me is silence or “why don’t you come with to the gym tomorrow”. Her response is always, “working out is not my thing”. Absolutely, ridiculous.

    Also, traditionally men are the ones who do the initiating and I don’t think this has changed for the most part. Women aren’t expected to pursue men and I know the argument will be that women are liberated. Therefore, they should take some of the pressure off men but this just another cope out, in my opinion. I have only heard this line of thinking from beta males.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, now that you made me reminisce, at my school, the girls in the really prestigious sororities (DG, Tri-delt, KKG) were not sluts and would have been really appalled to have reputations as sluts. They wanted, and mostly got, high status boyfriends.

    The frats were zoos of course but the sororities were really orderly places with live-in … I don’t remember what they were called … den mothers? No, not that, but they were like chaperones. You really couldn’t get away with being a slut and be in a top sorority. They would kick you out and make up some excuse.

  • Herb

    @Liza

    Also, traditionally men are the ones who do the initiating and I don’t think this has changed for the most part. Women aren’t expected to pursue men and I know the argument will be that women are liberated. Therefore, they should take some of the pressure off men but this just another cope out, in my opinion.

    A cope out?

    God, that is classic lazy feminism…”I’m liberated so you better treat me like an equal but I expect to also be treated like a princess”.

    I thought the woman who said that to my face was a flake at best but now I respect her for at least being honest. Most women have the same attitude, but won’t own it.

    Either women are liberated and need to get in the game and ask men out and pay for dates or they’re delicate flowers that need men to do things and can stay at home, make babies, and generally STFU.

    What that can’t do, because in the long run it just won’t happen, is claim to be equals when the goodies are divied up and claim to be “just girls” when the effing gravel needs to be shoveled.

    Or course you’ve only heard it from beta males because they’re the ones who are expected to bear all the risk but share the reward.

    You know, bankers don’t like new regulations that eat in their ability to make huge profits and shove losses off to the tax payer. Should they complain that taxpayers asking for the regulations are just coping out because you don’t hear bankers asking for them?

  • http://T SayWhaat

    The manosphere should take note that if they want to crow about not wifing up a slut due to the biological double-standard, then they should accept the other half of that double-standard, which is taking the initiative to approach. You can’t have it both ways.

    Jesus Christ, I feel like Abbot!

  • Lokland

    @Saywhaat

    I’ll agree with that.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan,
    “Beta guys can either go after those women, whom they have no reason to resent, or compete for the ones who have been promiscuous in the past.”

    I went to STEM Central University, where most of the women fell into this “beta female” territory. Lots of us beta guys tried going after these women, since they were our classmates, and it kind of made sense to look for a partner in our milieu first. Didn’t quite work, for the same reason that “beta” women had the same hypergamy as most other women. Now, STEM women tended to be longer range thinking, so you didn’t see as many slut it out (thought there were a few), but they tended to be more of “if I can’t have my alpha, I just won’t date”. It also helped that career and studies made it easier to justify that as “I don’t have time for a boyfriend” (beta boyfriend that is).

    That tended to change once they’d been out of college for a few years, but by then, their age peer group of men start having other options…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ExNewYorker

      That tended to change once they’d been out of college for a few years, but by then, their age peer group of men start having other options…

      I’m curious about dating and mating for betas after college. I know your story, but how would you say it played out for most of your STEM classmates? Did most of them get married? To whom? Age difference? Were they pursued later by women who had in fact ridden the carousel? Did they marry women they might have dated in college had they been acquainted?

  • Herb

    @SayWhaat

    The manosphere should take note that if they want to crow about not wifing up a slut due to the biological double-standard, then they should accept the other half of that double-standard, which is taking the initiative to approach. You can’t have it both ways.

    And if women want to slut it up then they need to learn to STFU or approach men.

    I don’t see a whole lot of articles in the Atlanta, NY Magazine, or the Dallas Morning News about “Where have all the virgins gone”. I see a lot of “Where have all the good men gone.” articles though.

    Nor can you find me claiming I want a virgin are even a low number. Hell, I can prove just by who I married I didn’t even require thin (I do now though, because I won’t be another fat chick’s consolation prize to be discarded when she finally loses weight, but I don’t tell other men not to date fat women).

    My problem in not trusting women not to trade up has nothing to do with them being sluts, but with the fact women seem to no longer value commitment regardless of why they say in surveys. When we were in counseling the ex accused me of only staying because I was obligated, or as our counselor told her to phrase commitment…apparently I was a bad man for having that, which I did until over two years after she just moved out and I finally filed for divorce.

  • Lokland

    @ExNewYorker

    I’ll concur my experience was much the same.

    Most girls didn’t want to date guys in the same agre range (or the betas). There were not many sluts either but they just were not interested.

    Teaching, nurses and business women were awesome however.

  • Ted D

    “If you heard my inner monologue on bad days you’d know why large numbers of men who never have children is a bad thing. On good days we don’t care if the whole thing burns. On bad days we’re ready to help…after all, we’ve got nothing to lose and would at least have a little revenge.”

    Herb my Internet friend, you speak the truth here. There have been times in the last 18 years that I would have been ready to help tear down Western civilization if it wasn’t for my children. And, I have to admit, if I knew how to do it and NOT hurt them in the process, I would have been looking for people to help. Hell as it stands now if the right person with the right beliefs started a grass roots revolution in the U.S. I might just join them. I’m not opposed to treason if the cause is just. After all, we are a country founded by traitors, so in a way it is wholly American.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    They respected you.
    “Like” is the currency of Girls.
    “Respect” is the currency of Guys.

    I know that now but it was still baffling I remember that they used to mock my lack of sexual partners all the time the running joke was that when I finally have a lover he will need a chisel and some of them didn’t knew I was still a virgin they assumed it was so long that it grew back. But then out of the blue in separate occasions one told me that I was doing the right thing waiting for marriage or commitment before having sex and other told me that he hoped that his daughter grew up to be like me. I think I was in shock for a week after that.

    I hate to see a longterm marriage break-up. You say they are still friends. Did the husband want to break up as well?

    I only have her on my Facebook don’t know the husband well. She never mentions that it was a mutual agreement she talks about herself and her choice only so my guess is not. Also she is already talking about two prospects she has one that is pursuing her, so of course she doesn’t want him and other that is more aloof so of course she wants him more so my guess is that if she is ready to date so fast she was the one that wanting out, YMMV.

    Now before I feel I have to use an opposite example, I’m also friends with one of my husband’s young coworkers he is not cute, he is not in shape at all he is kind fat, he likes nerdy pursuits, he is sweet and his sense of humor is pretty self deprecating all on all as beta as it comes and he has a really cute girlfriend (she looks like Mike C’s girlfriend) that seems to treat him very nice so I don’t think all is lost of course this is a girlfriend let’s see if they move on as wife and how she goes from there still beta guys might not be as hopeless, YMMV.

  • http://T SayWhaat

    Herb, I’m not defending women who want to champion their right to casual sex. In fact, my advice to them would be the same. Though I’m pretty sure the sluts are already approaching men. They just aren’t approaching “you”. Nor are they reading this blog, so I really don’t know why you guys constantly feel the need to rant about it.

  • Herb

    @SayWhaat

    so I really don’t know why you guys constantly feel the need to rant about it.

    Because we keeping hearing the target audience of this blog is the 80% of college women who never had a bf and maybe they might get the picture that if they joined the game there are plenty of guys out there trying and getting shot down that might appreciate them. It’s our fight against pluralistic ignorance.

    Also, the other target market is those same women right out of college about the time those beta men who did try either give up or go over to the Ros (who I don’t even read…I think I’ve read maybe three or four posts by Roissy when he came up in The Weekly Standard and I’ve never read the other two that I remember) in hopes that they will get out there and ask men out.

    tldr; In hopes that beta girls will leave their rooms and be where the beta guys are dying in droves trying to get dates before the beta guys give up.

  • Herb

    @SayWhaat
    One addendum…for all my complaints about the ex, I’ll give her this. Despite her weight she didn’t wallflower. She was out in the world mixing it up and making friends and being social.

    That’s how I heard her yell, “I do the rock myself” after the Time Warp one Friday, which is why I hugged her and I told her I loved her saying it, which is how she told a friend in the cast she wanted me wrapped up in bow (which got communicated to me as “dude, you could get some”) and thus we met.

    She wasn’t “poor me, I can’t get a date” even though she add (by her own admission) accepted her weight would mean she’d never get one. But she still got out there and was social.

    Got her me and I introduced her to the world where all the men that came after (and during sadly) are from.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Herb,

    I did not intend for this to turn into some debate about feminism and that beta males should man-up. However, wanting women to initate dates then puts the onus on them and takes it off men like yourself who are afraid of being rejected. This is really the issue here; betas and their fear of being rejected by women due to their lack of confidence in themselves and their social skills.

    And I meant to write: cop out.

  • Herb

    @Liza:

    I got what you wrote.

    What I object to is your assumption that we want women to shoulder all the risk we never have.

    I shouldered it from the moment I discovered girls. I’ve shoulder it to this day although anymore after a round of rejections the space between attempts gets longer.

    However, when I hear women who never have complain they don’t have a boyfriend I want to scream at them to ask a guy out. Or at least get where guys are asking women out.

    Ben Stein, of Ferris Bueller fame, has a great book called Bunkhouse Logic. In it he talks about the American success fantasy where the local actress dreams of being a Hollywood star and the great director’s car breaks down in her town and he discovers her. He then talks about how it’s bunk and how she needs to go to NY and get in all the cattlecalls if she wants a shot.

    Same for women who want a bf. They need to hear your logic a lot more than a lot of beta guys who have gone out there and been shot down.

    Why is it beta women don’t ask men out or put themselves out in front of men trying to meet women? Are they afraid of rejection? Why is their fear a more valid excuse to sit out than a man’s fear?

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Liza – “This is really the issue here; betas and their fear of being rejected by women due to their lack of confidence in themselves and their social skills.”

    Here is a question for you. How exactly do you think those betas got that way? I mean, its easy to point a finger and claim that it is their fear that holds them back, and that is pretty damn true. But, WHY are they afraid?

    You see, many men feel like women don’t care about that, and frankly it is disheartening at best. If women want betas to suddenly become something they can be attracted to, wouldn’t it make sense for them to figure out why they became so unattractive? Biologically speaking, it doesn’t make sense that SO many guys should be unattractive, I mean their father/sperm-donor managed to get laid at least once, so why are they so invisible?

    All the guys here are trying to do is point out over and over WHY this isn’t as simple as teaching beta dudes some game. And as it stands, I believe that “game” evolved as a way to cope with exactly the environment that caused so many men to become unattractive to most women. So, by suggesting that beta guys “man up”, “learn game”, or any of the other commonly dispensed advice, you are actually telling them to beat the thing that put them down. But, I will wager that most beta guys don’t know what put them down. Do you?

  • Ramble

    But then out of the blue in separate occasions one told me that I was doing the right thing waiting for marriage or commitment before having sex and other told me that he hoped that his daughter grew up to be like me.

    I am not sure a higher compliment can be given.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I put most if not all of the blame on Charlotte. I think Wolfe does too. That’s not to say that I have any sympathy for Hoyt. I think he is a dirtbag whereas I like Charlotte and I have sympathy for her. (Dalrock bait!)

    Charlotte knew Hoyt was a cad. She just deluded herself into thinking she could “tame” him. Her interior monologues often have her thinking things like “I have him trained like a dog, I can control him.” She is star-struck and also sucked in by his good looks, by the envy of her peers, and by the glamour of the scene. She knows that Adam is better for her and more decent but she feels no attraction for him. She knows that Hoyt is wrong for her but nonetheless feels intensly attracted to him. Charlotte was specifically warned (by Beverly) that going away for the weekend implied sex but she went anyway on the assumption that she had it all under control. And of course she gets massively drunk, also under her control. Now, her lack of experience with booze didn’t help. However, none of it was forced on her.

    One interesting point is that Charlotte does arrive at Dupont defenseless. She avoided the hook-up culture in HS even though the cool kids were having sex in part because of strong parental pressure. But that pressure is not there on a daily basis at Dupont. Her mother had a zero tolerance attitude about pre-marital sex and would not discuss the issue further in any way. Charlotte felt that strongly but not intellectually. There was no reason behind it that resonated with her hence it was not strong enough to overcome her natural desires, awakened by Hoyt. I think this is Wolfe’s way of showing that simplistic abstinance teaching is not enough. Not that abstinence is wrong or that teaching abstinance is wrong but that insistence without reason is not enough. If anyone is smart enough to understand a reasoned argument against hook-ups and pre-marital sex, it’s Charlotte but nobody ever spells one out for her.

    The Charlotte we get at the end has stabilized but she is a lesser Charlotte than the one who arrived at Dupont. And not because she is no longer “pure” but because she has given over part of her soul to a rotten culture, rather than fight it or stand above it. The Charlotte who so impressed Mr. Starling in the beginnig is better than the Charlotte in the stands of the Buster Bowl at the end. I take Wolfe’s message to be, had Charlotte been able to resist the worst of Dupont the way she resisted the worst of Allegheney High, she would be a better person. So it’s an indictment of Dupont but also a lament about her well-meaning but inadequate upbringing.

  • Lokland

    @Herb

    Just give it up.

    Men don’t have emotions. We feel no pain and shall shoulder all risk.
    Fine, but if I risk all I’m going for HB9.8 or above because frankly most women are not worth the risk involved in approaching nowadays.

    For all the beta women who find that problematic. Too bad suck it up.

  • Escoffier

    Liza, sounds like you don’t want betas anyway, so what do you care if we are wallflowers?

  • Lokland

    @Huh?

    Yeah, you nailed it. Thats essentially the problem.

    I have no doubt the invisibility runs both directions. The betas of both sexes want only the alphas of the other sex.

  • Herb

    @Lokland

    Men don’t have emotions. We feel no pain and shall shoulder all risk.
    Fine, but if I risk all I’m going for HB9.8 or above because frankly most women are not worth the risk involved in approaching nowadays.

    Nah, I’ll just save my pain tolerating time for the tri season

    First spin class with the Atlanta Tri Club tonight, so if I die have a HUS virtual wake for me or something…Liza can talk about how I died because I just didn’t bike hard enough or something and you can come back with “that’s right, men feel no pain in their legs” :)

    Although given swimming is my strong event I wish I could do the bike portion with a handcrank bike and just use my legs on the run.

  • Lokland

    @Herb

    You do triathalons?

    Thats so fucking awesome.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Ted,

    Of course, I do not know how beta males came to be the way they are. However, I do not believe that they were born that way. No more than alpha males were born to be the way they are. I believe these are learned character traits by the way of environment and nurture. Therefore, they are not hardwired then they can be unlearned, right?

  • Escoffier

    More of this is hard-wired than learned. That’s not to say that DNA = destiny but overcoming it is hard. Most will never try, of those that do, probably more will fail than succeed.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    “Liza, sounds like you don’t want betas anyway, so what do you care if we are wallflowers?”

    Ha! I knew this was coming and here it is.

    god, I am chatty today.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “No, I’m talking about the girl who didn’t go to parties and make out with randoms in school. She’s the beta female – going to classes, has some girlfriends from the dorm, is mostly invisible to guys, or at least feels that way. Never gets singled out or invited out by the opposite sex.”

    Ah, I see the disconnect. In the past, you’ve mostly talked about women who hook up/FWB/whatever, yet still have “never gone a date”, as if this is the most common thing. You rarely talk about women who *don’t* mess around and don’t have dates.

    How many of women really fall into this second category, though? Other than SayWhaat? Because most of the women here giddily remind us (often with faux annoyance) of how hot they are (or were) and how often they get hit on.

    SayWhaat: “I will probably have a giant chip on my shoulder because every guy will be just another dipshit who rejected me because of my virginity — especially if he doesn’t reject me this time.”

    You still seem have that chip.

    As for “nuclear” rejections being overstated – remember, I got outed as a virgin twice IN PUBLIC. So I’m going to double up your virgin shaming and raise you nuclear cockblock.

    “The manosphere should take note that if they want to crow about not wifing up a slut due to the biological double-standard, then they should accept the other half of that double-standard, which is taking the initiative to approach.”

    I agree, but they already do. The vast majority of Game authors agree men MUST approach, because that is what works. Really, is there are manosphere blog article somewhere that says “Women should approach men!” somewhere that I haven’t seen?

  • Herb

    @Lokland

    Not yet, but this will be my year.

    The year I did the aqualon I was banded from biking by the doc (blood thinners made head trauma very risky…USA Triathlon even listed the one I was on by name as a “don’t compete” drug).

    So I’ve run, I’ve swam, and I’ve swam/run, but swim/bike/run this will be my first year.

    The goal is Ironman Moo (Wisconsin) in 2016, just in time to turn 50.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Why is it beta women don’t ask men out or put themselves out in front of men trying to meet women? Are they afraid of rejection? Why is their fear a more valid excuse to sit out than a man’s fear?

    This is what I did when I noticed that only cads and married men approached me and the cute shy guys didn’t after changing many things about myself I took the initiative. I messaged my husband first in Sciconnect for example and I won the prize. I think is right and women should take some initiative I know that men supposedly don’t like this and consider women P&D or easy but we never mention that this are the type of men that already have tons of women throwing themselves at them the cute nerdy shy guy would no typically think “A girl finds me attractive! I finally have a chance of P&D someone!” I think he will more likely try to give you the better chance he can to get to know you better and from them maybe L’amour!, YMMV.

    I am not sure a higher compliment can be given.

    That is how I took still it came out of nowhere and from a totally unexpected source. Although at least in one case I knew I passed a very unsavory test with a married guy that chased me around so who knows maybe they were expecting me to fail and that is what brought it up? I’m babbling at this point mysteries are always interesting to me.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Herb
    So you are an athlete! Neat! Good luck with your goal. Let us know how it goes.

    Because most of the women here giddily remind us (often with faux annoyance) of how hot they are (or were) and how often they get hit on.

    I don’t I mentioned that I spent ten years with no kissing, touching or any kind of contact from males I’m not ashamed of had being a loser. Happens to be the best of us obviously.

  • Lokland

    @Herb

    Damn thats incredible.
    Gooud luck and def. tell us how it goes.

  • Herb

    @Ana

    I think is right and women should take some initiative I know that men supposedly don’t like this and consider women P&D or easy but we never mention that this are the type of men that already have tons of women throwing themselves at them the cute nerdy shy guy would no typically think “A girl finds me attractive! I finally have a chance of P&D someone!” I think he will more likely try to give you the better chance he can to get to know you better and from them maybe L’amour!, YMMV.

    One of the best scenes ever in Sports Night is when Jeremy is talking to a cute girl at a bar and says he’s so clueless a girl would need to hit him and hold up a sign. After what appears to be about 20 minutes talking she slaps him upside the head.

    As he asks her what that was for she holds up a napkin she’s written “ask me out” on.

    I fell in love with that character immediately :)

  • http://T SayWhaat

    OTC, I’m not sure where you’re getting at with the “SayWhaat hasn’t messed around” thing. I am an attractive girl, it wasn’t like guys didn’t want to touch me, lol. I had hookups, they just usually turned into dates/pseudo-relationship thingies because I expressed that I was more interested in the latter.

  • http://T SayWhaat

    The few times I hooked up, I should add. Before the vultures go crazy.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan
    “I’m curious about dating and mating for betas after college. I know your story, but how would you say it played out for most of your STEM classmates?”

    Wow…where to begin? Well, I’ll try to give a thorough answer.

    First, there were a contingent of guys who married their college/grad school girlfriends. This was not an insignificant bunch, maybe 20% of my college buddies. This group is very similar to what you describe in your Boston UMC neighborhood: low divorce rates (I only know of two divorces in this contingent of 20), fairly egalitarian, the guys generally being greater betas (so they do have some alpha) and the women they married are very low count. While a lot of the women were STEM in school, they tended not to work in STEM directly, though often they worked at STEM companies in related jobs. The marriages occurred from 1-3 years after graduation (I met my future wife at one of these friends’ such marriage).

    The other 80%? Well, that’s been a large and diverse group. Most married (maybe 80% of the 80%), but here you had a more diverse group of women they were marrying, so the divorce rates are higher (still lower than the national average, but noticeably higher than the first group). This 80% consisted of:
    1) The 20% unmarried. This is the MGTOW contingent, sometimes voluntary, sometimes not.
    2) The foreign contingent: there are a lot of STEM guys who are immigrants, or first generation afterwards. These guys married fellow immigrant women, or went back to the home country. They tended to marry in their late 20′s to younger (3-7 years) women. The women they married tended to be educated, and of similar socio-economic group. A low divorce group as well.
    3) Some married, to put it bluntly, “reformed carousel riders”. A few actually are fairly happy…their spouses really reformed. These cases tended to also be where the women pursued the guy more than usual. These tend to be same age. The women in this group were varied in terms of socio-economic group…but usually not STEM themselves.
    4) Some married divorced women with low counts and no children. These women were usually well educated, maybe 2-3 years younger than their partners. The guys they divorced tended to be real assholes, but somehow this wasn’t clear to them before. Actually, a low divorce group (except for the first one).
    5) Small contingent of men married to very low count women usually 3-5 years younger. I’m in this group, but I’m not the only one. Tended to marry women in female dominated jobs (nursing, teaching, etc).

    We have a bunch of millenial guys at work (current job and previous job), who seem to be falling into the same sort of groups as my peer group (gen-X). However, they do seem to be less naive than we were at the same age.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ExNewYorker

      Thanks, that is a pretty diverse set of circumstances, but a very helpful “field report.” I’m going to gather as much of this info as I can, because I’ve never seen this kind of data anywhere. I’m especially keen to understand how guys go from feeling like they’re in the desert to feeling like they do have options. And how women wind up being those options. Sounds like a mix of social circle meeting and online dating.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Herb
    I loved Jeremy in Sports Night I didn’t watched it religiously but I loved him more than anyone in that show so cute. Then the same actor went to Big Shots and played a cheating husband…It was so disappointing. :(

  • OffTheCuff

    SayWhaat: “OTC, I’m not sure where you’re getting at with the “SayWhaat hasn’t messed around” thing.”

    My bad. Then there are *zero* “beta” females here who can’t get dates, then. Even better!

    Remember the context of this conversation was Susan saying that beta men, out of college, should go for the lonely women who “didn’t have dates” in college. Fair enough. I erroneously thought that included women who hooked-up but never had dates (e.g., her focus group), but she later clarified that to mean “women who never get approached at all”. Which would make sense. A fair equivalent.

    So, where are they?

    I think you being one of the *most* conservative woman we have here, is a key indicator that these “beta” women don’t really exist in any appreciable quantity.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think you being one of the *most* conservative woman we have here, is a key indicator that these “beta” women don’t really exist in any appreciable quantity.

      Then how do you explain low counts for both sexes in college?

  • also intj

    Question for the beta guys:

    Would you rather a woman ask you out or tell you she would really like it if you asked her out? If a guy is interested in her, I would think the first is preferable, but if he isn’t I could see it leaving a guy who didn’t see it coming feeling a bit panicked as to how to say no. The second option is easier for him to bow out of by virtue of doing nothing, but requires less stepping up on the part of the woman. I can see the value in her being willing to take the risk. I’d love to hear what guys think, particularly those of you in the older contingent.

  • Lokland

    @also INTJ

    A woman directly asking a guy out ias bad. It leaves 3 options two of which are bad for her.
    1. Rejection.
    2. Fall madly in love and make many babies.
    3. He takes advantage of the opportunity and P&Ds her.

    From a womans perspective being overly flirtacious is probably the best risk/reward balance.

    But I have a penis so I’m probably an idiot on these matters.

    As for woman asking me, what Ana described earlier with the nap kin bit could have been the story of my life before I got it.
    Hearing how much a woman wants us/wants to be with us/wants us to ask her out etc. ALWAYS feels good.

  • Dogsquat

    “What I reject is that idea that there is no blame. I’m not down with the “fuck whoever you want” mentality anymore than I am down with “Everyone should eat all the cupcakes in the world.” Indulging base instincts with no regard to consequences leads to bad places. So, no, it’s not exactly that I want to fuck who I want, when I want.”
    ___________________________________

    I am glad you took that meanderthon of a comment in the spirit it was meant. That speaks well of your objectivity and mental toughness.

    All I can do is try and re-phrase what JM said earlier, but I’ll be using worse prose:

    So much of your outlook is time dependent. I think Badger (on Susan’s sidebar) made a post likening Red Pill acceptance with the stages of accepting Death. You may want to hunt that post down and cogitate on it for awhile.

    Just keep going, man. The deafening roar of injustice fades from your ears after awhile. As I said – I once had that roar myself. Now, instead of the Roar of Injustice, I have the Tinnitus of Irritation.

    Instead of wanting to punish all women everywhere for my pain, I just want to find (keep, now) a good woman.

    Also, read your last quoted sentence again. Are you entirely sure that’s a true statement?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Of course there are unattractive women who can’t get laid. They just have to be really fucking unattractive. Even girls I know who rate 3s or 4s on the trad scale have NO PROBLEM AT ALL getting dates. Seriously. I know a 3 that’s had 3 Bfs in the past 6 months.

    For the record, Beta-Alpha. Eh. Not a perfect divide. I think I started out with a shitload of Alpha traits. My first hook-up was when I was 12 and I added a few more through middle school even though I was a loser, because I still knew a couple girls outside school that liked me hardcore.

    The difference is that I made the conscious choice not to be an asshole anymore. Even then, I must’ve been DIRECTLY approached by 4 or 5 girls through high school, so more must have been thinking about it. In college….dunno…another 4 or 5?

    Still, I am no where near Alpha. And the Beta thing is a mindset. Thing is, girls…they don’t even comprehend it. “You mean some girl ripped her shirt off and jumped in your arms and you DIDN’T have sex with her?’
    “No.”
    “Why not?”
    “I wasn’t in a relationship with her.”

    I have never gotten anything other than a blank stare from a woman on this. Ever. One woman literally stared at me for 5 minutes and said she did not know how to process that.

    The only exception is Mom and Sister. Mom and Sister do not need an explanation on why I don’t hook up with girls randomly, because no explanation is necessary.

  • Dogsquat

    JM said:

    “I’m interested in what other guys think: do others see the “pure alpha” as a sort of enemy or opponent–someone playing for an entirely different team?”
    __________________________________

    Hmm.

    I don’t tend to see people as my enemy unless they pick my pocket or break my leg (in the Jeffersonian sense). An enemy is someone I avoid or destroy. I just don’t care that much about how “alpha” a guy is.

    Devil’s Advocate, reporting for duty, Sah!

    I did a lot of damage (by my standards, anyway) to women during my acceptance of the Red Pill. I was angry but attractive to women, and a few girls paid for it.

    You had a similar journey. What do you think? Isn’t our malice aforethought somehow more incriminating than a guy who’s just being himself?

    Which one’s worse? I view the natural born alphas as sort of forces of nature. Are they really responsible, any more than a Cape Buffalo is? You and I are like hunters – not so many natural gifts as those animals. But we’ve got binoculars, Land Cruisers, and a .458 Weatherby Magnum. Our buddies are land developers and toxic waste dump operators.

    A Cape Buffalo is…well, just what it’s born as.

    Who’s worse?

  • Dogsquat

    Lisa207 said:

    “Sorry, I did not intend to make you sick with my comment. However, it is not my or any other woman’s fault that the “good guys” decided to just sit and wait. No one is stopping them from going for the women they desire–other than themselves–period.”
    __________________________________

    This is an incisive comment, Oh Most Numeric of All The Lisas.

    Forgive my following minor quibble with it:

    There are indeed many people attempting to stop men from “going for” the women they desire.

    Where you are and I are in agreement is the frustration with what many men do once they figure this out. It’s fine for guys to be angry. It’s understandable to lament for lost time and missed opportunities. Grieving for loves lost through misinformation is necessary.

    Employing blame like Curtis LeMay used carpet bombing is, frankly, unproductive. With some help, men can move quickly through this phase, and everyone will end up a bit happier.

    So, Miss Ten-Score and Seven of Lisas, you and I agree on more than we don’t.

  • J

    Overall, Wolfe depicts a lot of “feral females” (I believe that was Dalrock’s term).

    Actually, it was coined by one of his formerly regular commenters. The same guy also came up with “old enough to bleed, old enough to marry.”

  • J

    I only have her on my Facebook don’t know the husband well. She never mentions that it was a mutual agreement she talks about herself and her choice only so my guess is not.

    OK. I guess the fact that they are still friends made it sound mutual to me. Rejection usually makes people angry.

  • J

    @Herb, Ted, et al. regaerding the idea thay only 40% of the men that ever lived left descendents.

    When this highly quoted statisitic first came up at Roissy’s, a regular commenter named Polymath, a mathematician/statistician by trade, deconstructed it and proved it false. I found his reasoning quite cogent, but the idea is still oft-repeated and highly attractive to a certain subset of the ‘sphere. I personally don’t believe it.

  • also intj

    Lokland, thanks for the input. I’ve really been wondering how guys would like or not like this.

  • http://T SayWhaat

    I don’t think I’m conservative. I’m probably less conservative than you may think. Careful you don’t project, lol!

  • J

    Here is an old HUS post of mine on the 40% issue:

    J September 15, 2010 at 10:02 am

    Logically, this statement, Maybe 80 percent of women reproduced, whereas only 40 percent of men did. does not necessarily follow this one: Citing recent DNA research, Dr. Baumeister explained that today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men.
    .

    There are numerous studies that state that modern humans are descended from very small numbers of people. That we are all descendents of the African woman nicknames “mitochondrial Eve”” does not mean that she was the only female of her generation to reproduce. A recent study highly cited all over the HBD-sphere says that all Askenazi Jews are descended from four women; again we can assume that more then four Jewish women in any generation had sex. With the way genetic lines tend to cross and re-cross each other, it’s not surprizing that the majority of people can trace themselves back to a handful of people in common. That’s not to say that those are the only peole who reproduced.
    .

    Additionally, for those of us who believe the “Out of Africa” theory, Baumgartner’s finding can be explained by the fact that whole continenents are filled by people descended from the handfuls of men who left Africa in various waves.
    .

    Finally, when the Baumgartner post originally appeared at Roissy, a poster named Polymath, a professional statistician, did a numerical analysis that debunked that only 40 percent of men reproduced. His final calculation was low enough to bring the number of men who did not reproduce in line with the natural male death and infertility rates. I’d encourage people to read that thread.
    .

    Interestingly enough, shortly thereafter Poly wrote a few posts asking why posts of his were in moderation or if he’d been banned. He no longer seems to post on CR.
    .

    It may even be true that more men have greater access to sex today than they did in previous eras.

    This statement is not only true, but it is easily lost in the emotionality surrounding this discussion.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan,

    “I’m especially keen to understand how guys go from feeling like they’re in the desert to feeling like they do have options. ”

    With lopsided male:female STEM ratios out here in Silicon Valley, for a good chunk of the guys here, the options are relatively limited. The only reason I felt like I had options was because I had internalized some of the lessons my cad brother had shown me (plus I traveled a lot). For a lot of guys here, if the cute HR girl seems interested, they’re not going to ask too many questions…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      For a lot of guys here, if the cute HR girl seems interested, they’re not going to ask too many questions…

      Yeah, there’s the lopsided sex ratio again. It definitely causes people to strike different deals.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan,

    I’m off to Beer Night with some of the Millenials. If I find anything worth reporting, I’ll let you know. :-)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    OK. I guess the fact that they are still friends made it sound mutual to me. Rejection usually makes people angry.

    Ohh I’m not sure how many divorced male friends you have but men don’t want to look “uncivilized” In fact many men go along with the “mutual decision” to save face or because they feel they did something wrong to have their wives just leaving them for no reason, many of them are really bitter and clueless about what they did wrong but only tell this to really close relatives or if they get really drunk. My guess is that many of the manosphere guys that got served a frivolous divorce don’t mention that to anyone in real life, but vent like hell online, YMMV.

  • INTJ

    @ExNewYorker

    Yeah that lopsided sex ratio is going to be a killer when I move to the Silicon Valley (I’m from the East Bay and studying out of state. I want to stay in the Bay Area where my mother and younger brother live, but all my job prospects are in the South Bay).

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Dogsquat,

    What do you think? Isn’t our malice aforethought somehow more incriminating than a guy who’s just being himself?

    At the time we were committing the malice, yes.

    I view the natural born alphas as sort of forces of nature. Are they really responsible, any more than a Cape Buffalo is?

    As for the guy who just happens to get laid like tile cuz he’s good looking and has a great personality, I don’t really consider him my enemy–I don’t want to rain on his parade (though I’m quite happy avoiding relationships with the girls who’ve marched in his parade).

    When I say I view the alpha as my enemy, I mean anybody who thinks the Universe is here to serve him, anybody who uses people as tools, anybody who shirks basic human decencies in pursuit of power, pleasure, or straight-up gratification, who basically believes he’s God’s special gift to the world.

    Perhaps I’m slightly mad, or naively idealistic, or maybe I’m just an arrogant son of a bitch, but I see part of my “deep purpose” as championing the human decencies and opposing the enemies of those decencies.

    Maybe it’s too much to expect women not to gush over–or even consider gushing over–some hot asshole. Maybe I’m opposing some sort of deep female nature to think that it’s fundamentally wrong to be heaping praise and admiration on a hot jerk or on a hot guy whose character one knows nothing about. If my expectations run contrary to female nature, then so be it–it’s just who I am.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      . Maybe I’m opposing some sort of deep female nature to think that it’s fundamentally wrong to be heaping praise and admiration on a hot jerk or on a hot guy whose character one knows nothing about.

      It’s obviously wrong to heap praise and admiration on a person of poor character, or whose behavior does not merit respect. There are women who select men without regard for character, or even worse – select men who treat them poorly.

      But a lot of the praise and admiration about a hot guy is likely to be about his physical traits alone. Good looking people get favorable reviews in general – in studies photos of good looking people are given higher ratings for character than photos of less attractive people.

      Both sexes do this.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I’ve got some big people in my family and none of them want to date people as big as them.

    This is a very interesting observation I had always being skinny, God bless, but I had a couple of relatives from my mother side and obese friends they were the most unforgiving harsh people every time someone obese (that means a bit heavier than they mainly) was in close proximity they used to gossip, look and be all sorts of unpleasant about them behind their back and sometime not being subtle about it, to a point that I had to ask them to shut up and remind them that lighter people than they, could be saying the same things. I do wonder how much of fat shaming is done by fat people themselves than the thin ones, YMMV.

  • INTJ

    @Anacaona

    That’s interesting. When I was growing up as a kid, I was always really short and skinny (I still am, by Caucasian standards, but not to the same extent I used to be). A lot of obese people tended to make disparaging comments about my size. I didn’t like it, but back then I was too nice to tell them to go look in the mirror.

  • J

    I got to say that my mileage does vary on this, Ana. Most of the divorces that I know of do seem pretty mutual, and I can’t say I know of any EPL divorces–but that may be a factor of age/generation/SES/location.

    I do have one good male friend who got booted “out of the blue.” He was hurt at first, but the wife is a real piece of work. It took about three weeks in his own place for him to really enjoy life with out her. She couldn’t get him back now if she tried, and he’d be a fool to go back no matter what.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I got to say that my mileage does vary on this, Ana. Most of the divorces that I know of do seem pretty mutual, and I can’t say I know of any EPL divorces–but that may be a factor of age/generation/SES/location.

    Might be all that. My husband’s friends are in the first wave of divorce cohort according to the data (35 to 40) the ones getting divorced now are the ones that got married around the 25 year mark so the seven itch thing. The second group of friends got married recently like 4 years or less so it will take some years to see how many of them are going to EPL divorce or show real issues that might lead to divorce, around the 7 to 10 year mark. But they are falling like flies, slowly we keep hearing the news of such and such getting divorced for no reason at all then wife is dating a new man less than a year later, husband still alone and even though he tries to save face you can find that as soon as someone actually talks to them about the issue (that will be me since that everybody wants to keep shhhss about the details) the bitterness and disappointment show up, no to mention the pain of the wife taking the kids to live with her and new man far away from original location and shutting down any parenting from old man and limiting the visits, of course the plural of data is not anecdote and I really hope I’m wrong. It will be really lonely if I stop talking to all the new friends I had made because I will be damned if I hang out with freaking EPL, YMMV.

  • Herb

    @Ana and Lokland re: keeping you informed

    Spin class was good and doing this weekly plus a weekend ride will pretty much insure I can do the bike on my target tri (http://web.mac.com/cdunlop3/Tri_the_Parks/Information_Mistletoe.html) which is only 11.8 miles. I know I can do the swim already (I swam 350 straight for a warm up Monday before doing sets) but it’s my strong sport. I’ve done a 5k twice, once after a 500m swim.

    Did you know you can be sore, muscle sore not sitting sore, in your glutes? I didn’t but do now.

    My biggest fear is I’ll wake up and my legs will turn out to be in the spin room. I’m assuming they’re still attached because I drove home but you never know.

  • Herb

    @also intj

    Would you rather a woman ask you out or tell you she would really like it if you asked her out?

    See note above about sign and hitting me.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    My biggest fear is I’ll wake up and my legs will turn out to be in the spin room. I’m assuming they’re still attached because I drove home but you never know.

    Heh nice paranoia except that how can you actually drove home without legs? Think better that you go to the car and when you are trying to hit the break there is nothing there. More realistic that way. :)

  • Herb

    @J

    It may even be true that more men have greater access to sex today than they did in previous eras.

    This statement is not only true, but it is easily lost in the emotionality surrounding this discussion.

    Either me and a lot of my friends are statistical outliers or primitive man didn’t know how to even masturbate.

    Which makes me wonder if lube is Paleolithic or Neolithic, because arguably it’s up there with fire and the wheel.

    Then again, without money did men prior the late bronze age (when coins first appear) even have the handy invention of prostitution.

    In a more serious response, I happily accept for most of the post-bronze age in the west more men reproduced than the narrow numbers for items such as the last Adam (if memory serves about 80k years ago and much more recent than mitochondrial Eve) or during the diaspora out of Africa.

    In fact, I believe most civilizations have to insure the majority of men reproduce in order for continuity. Children do a better of job of getting men to invest in the future than anything.

    As we here in the US move into an era of baby daddies and single moms expecting men who didn’t get the fun to shovel the gravel that is starting to break down. China is going to have it for a different reason, the missing girls. In the US it’s just more and more women are deciding to service one man and expect another to marry and bear the burden.

    That just won’t happen in the long run.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    What’s EPL divorce?

    Eat, Pray and Love a popular book authored by Melissa Gilbert and movie starred by Julia Roberts. I will let you google or wikipedia the plot so you can see if you can spot why is synonymous of frivolous divorce.

  • Alias

    Susan:
    ” I don’t know a single woman who longs for the alpha that got away.
    —————-
    Liza207:
    “It is like; what the hell was I thinking? Moreover, I am glad I finally came to my senses. There are no fond memories and longing.”
    ————-

    > This is what struck me as hysterical. The absurdity of the alpha that got away.

    However, that doesn’t mean that I undermine the feelings of men who are uncomfortable about a woman’s past history with an alpha (beta, sigma, delta or whatever, for that matter) as in:

    J: “If a guy tells me that he has an emotional need to be the first, I can accept that.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Alias

      > This is what struck me as hysterical. The absurdity of the alpha that got away.

      However, that doesn’t mean that I undermine the feelings of men who are uncomfortable about a woman’s past history with an alpha

      It is absurd. I feel sorrier for the women whose alphas stuck around. Nearly every marriage I know with husbands like this is terrible. Some of them are intact, others have ended due to his infidelity. These are not men who continue to find their wives beautiful as they age.

      It sounds like guys are saying that it’s not the worry that the woman isn’t over the guy, it’s just the fact that he was ever there in the first place. I’m sure it would be worse if the woman was still pining, but just knowing she went there in the first place is upsetting.

      Girls often feel this way when a guy has been with someone slutty and/or ugly. It repulses them, and that’s in direct conflict with their attraction to him.

  • Alias

    I’m probably too late in this conversation, as usual.
    continuation to #488:

    It’s wise to be cautious of anyone who has a history of being attracted to people of low character (is that how we’re defining alpha now?), especially if it’s their MO. There’s no denying that some people become addicted to the same type of jerk and keep going back for more no matter how many times they get burned.
    There are others who have gotten burned due to their own immaturity/naivete and/or the cads’ ability to disguise his bad traits.
    So, yeah, caution is good, that is- if you’re willing to overlook someone’s past- you’d want to make sure they’re not still pining over that alpha.

    We have to realize that different people have their own reasons for rejecting others. Perhaps they’d make exceptions if they became close to someone with certain circumstances, not everything’s cut in stone when it comes to attraction. However, I’ve never thought it’s a good idea to force people into accepting what they don’t want to accept because I don’t appreciate it when/if it’s done to me.

  • Escoffier

    Small thing: Melissa Gilbert = Laura Ingalls Wilder. EPL author = Elizabeth Gilbert.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    But a lot of the praise and admiration about a hot guy is likely to be about his physical traits alone. Good looking people get favorable reviews in general – in studies photos of good looking people are given higher ratings for character than photos of less attractive people.

    Both sexes do this.

    Yea, I find all this objectionable. I guess I’m just against human nature.

  • Ramble

    Small thing: Melissa Gilbert = Laura Ingalls Wilder. EPL author = Elizabeth Gilbert.

    Interestingly enough, Melissa Gilbert just got divorced, again. The successful actress will get child custody of their 15 year old and Alimony.

  • Escoffier

    I think it’s a stretch to call her a successful actress at this point. That is, however, to say nothing of the justice of this divorce settlement, about which I know nothing.

  • Dogsquat

    JM said:

    “When I say I view the alpha as my enemy, I mean anybody who thinks the Universe is here to serve him, anybody who uses people as tools, anybody who shirks basic human decencies in pursuit of power, pleasure, or straight-up gratification, who basically believes he’s God’s special gift to the world.”
    ____________________________

    At last we arrive at a useful definition!

    Jesus, you hate politicians.

  • Ramble

    While a lot of the women were STEM in school, they tended not to work in STEM directly, though often they worked at STEM companies in related jobs. The marriages occurred from 1-3 years after graduation (I met my future wife at one of these friends’ such marriage).

    ExNewYorker,
    That is really interesting. I went to one of the few schools that had an equal number of girls and guys in the Comp Sci department. One day, out of the blue, a professor asked us what we were looking to do in out future professions. In a class of over 30, 100% of the guys said “Developer” or “Software Engineer” (basically, same thing). With the exception of one girl (born and raised in China), all of the girls said that they were (hopefully) going into management. (Actually, one said that she was going into Help Desk…that blew my mind).

  • Dogsquat

    Susan said:

    “It sounds like guys are saying that it’s not the worry that the woman isn’t over the guy, it’s just the fact that he was ever there in the first place. I’m sure it would be worse if the woman was still pining, but just knowing she went there in the first place is upsetting.”
    ____________________________

    There are many factors at work. What you’ve said here is one. Ted had a great comment about being “The One” at something, and that plays a part. The possibility of concealed pining is another. Revealed preference is yet a third factor. Wondering “How smart is she….really? She couldn’t see through that guy’s BS,” is yet one more. Wondering if you stack up with past guys is in there, too.

    I’ll bet every dude out there (excepting those most programmed by feminism) wonders these things in some ratio. I’m sure there are other things I didn’t mention, as well.

    It’s good for women to know:

    At some point in his journey through life, most men are terribly insecure about women. Lots of the demons that sabotage relationships live in men’s heads.

    Unless you gals have landed a guy who’s achieved Don’t Give A Shit Nirvana, you’d do well to recognize and account for this. If you are awesome enough, the guy will allow himself to be seduced by the mantra “It doesn’t matter….all that is in the past…..she’s with you now….”

    If you are not awesome enough, or have a past that’s checkered (or easily visible) that mantra isn’t going to work.

    Of course, all this is predicated on your guy realizing he has options (even MGTOW is an option). A desperate man will accept anything – but I doubt you ladies want a guy like that.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “There are many factors at work. What you’ve said here is one. Ted had a great comment about being “The One” at something, and that plays a part. The possibility of concealed pining is another. Revealed preference is yet a third factor. Wondering “How smart is she….really? She couldn’t see through that guy’s BS,” is yet one more. Wondering if you stack up with past guys is in there, too”

    I think that is a pretty good list, and as far as it goes I think most guys are probably dealing with a combination of the above in some ratio. Maybe DogSquat isn’t as concerned with how he stacks up to past lovers, but he may be more concerned about not having some “first” with his SO, JM might be more concerned with her “smarts” and if she learned her lesson from bad experiences with asshats.

    I know of VERY few guys that successfully pulled off the “Don’t Give a Shit Nirvana” although I’ve seen plenty of guys SAY they did/do/are. In all cases, at some point they dealt with it and only got to not giving a shit AFTER spending some serious time stressing over it. I haven’t asked, but I wonder how many of them still get a pang now and again, even after being with their mate for years. I can say that for me it is getting less stressful as time goes on, and I think about it less. At some point I hope it will simply fade away, but for now I’m not getting my hopes up.

  • J

    I’m in a different age cohort, Ana. My divorcing peers have been married 20-35 years and have grown kids for the most part. What I see are couples that have been miserable together for over a decade in some cases, who know that they are getting to closer to the end, and who want some love, or maybe just some peace and quiet, before they become too old and sick to enjoy life. Their new life plan isn’t to EPL. It’s too get off misery, maybe find someone new, maybe not, retire, maybe travel a bit and have the best life they can before it’s too late. Often the couple has broken up years earlier and reconciled for the sake of the kids. Now the kids are gone and have families of their own and the couple is stuck in a dead marriage. Since most of these folks are UMC and can leave, they do.

  • J

    Either me and a lot of my friends are statistical outliers or primitive man didn’t know how to even masturbate. Which makes me wonder if lube is Paleolithic or Neolithic, because arguably it’s up there with fire and the wheel.

    LOL. Cave bear fat FTW.

    I’m trying to remember just what I meant when I wrote that. I’m sure it made better sense in the context of the original thread. I probably meant that in the past 50 years no-strings-attached sex has become more availble to men than in previous historical eras when a man needed a wife for regular sex or in eras where the big men had harems and a lot of men were cut out of the loop. Whatever I meant, it made sense 18 month ago.

    Then again, without money did men prior the late bronze age (when coins first appear) even have the handy invention of prostitution.

    To answer this srsly, probably yes. I’m sure that there were primitive tribeswomen who would trade sex for resources. There’s an anthropologist named Sarah Hrdy who explains sluthood as a survial strategy that allows women to build a network of providers in case one dies. About 18 months ago, a male blogger attempted to make the case that monogamy was more “natural” for women than men. I doubt that’s true. My guess is that if a woman is monogamous, she probably carries genes for monogamy because there are environments on which monogamy favors the survival of k-selected offspring. But I’d bet that when things get really wild and woolly, sluts do better. In those enviornments, r-selected offspring of alpha thugs and women who carry genes that make them good at extracting resources from random males do well. Civilization is truly the product of the mating of beta males with monogamous women.

    As we here in the US move into an era of baby daddies and single moms expecting men who didn’t get the fun to shovel the gravel that is starting to break down.

    This one truly scares me. I married and had kids late, so I have a real fear of my DH having a coronary and leaving me with kids to raise and educate alone. I can not imagine even the nicest guy in the world having the investment in my sons, much less the natural rapport, that my husband has. I think that having an adult male in my home who was not my sons’ father would be very risky.

  • Ramble

    LOL. Cave bear fat FTW.

    That is even funnier than you think. Back in the day, when Bear fat was commonly used, it was referred to as Bear Grease.

  • Herb

    @J

    I think that having an adult male in my home who was not my sons’ father would be very risky.

    Statistics bear you out. Although we aren’t allowed to break apart the numbers on child abuse in polite company (plus, it makes the divorce industry happy because they can imply it’s all fathers) men other than a child’s bio father are much more likely to be abusive than a bio father and if there is no marriage it’s even worse.

    The reality is a live in boyfriend sees the woman’s children as a competitor for her attention (and perhaps later to his own children).

    I also think the current climate makes this worse. I won’t entertain non-widow single moms as partners. Why should as. As ADBG said, his girlfriend told him “I have two sides. They got my wild side. You get my mature side.”

    Such women can sod off…that’s like asking me to pay for a dinner you enjoyed with someone else because he’s good company and I’m responsible.

    I see no reason to be responsible to a woman (or for that matter a society) that has deemed me unworthy of reproducing.

  • Herb

    @J

    Forgot to note: I do make an exception for widows. They have proof of loyalty and investing in a man. Their children would be less “shouldering the costs of your fun” and more “taking you for better and for worse” or in simpler terms, for all of you.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Small thing: Melissa Gilbert = Laura Ingalls Wilder. EPL author = Elizabeth Gilbert.

    Ups! Sorry. I stand corrected.

    I’m in a different age cohort, Ana. My divorcing peers have been married 20-35 years and have grown kids for the most part.

    I don’t know J if my parents were to divorce now after 35 years of marriage it will devastate me anyway. They are my romantic role models (not Edward and Bella or any of my fictional beloved couple, my parents are in case someone was wondering) I know that living in misery seems to be the worst destiny ever but why can’t they fix their problems without getting a divorce? I mean if there is abuse or cheating I can see its okay but divorcing over feelings? Sorry I’m a bit more practical than that. Feelings are immaterial and IMO fixable 90% of the time, YMMV.

    The reality is a live in boyfriend sees the woman’s children as a competitor for her attention (and perhaps later to his own children).

    Is funny because I write and research fairytales and this is a piece of wisdom people have had for centuries even in widowhood stepparents used to be cruel and mean to the kids because without the biological link they have no reason no to be and they rather use the kids and favor their biological ones or themselves if they didn’t had any. But like you said this is something we can’t discuss in polite company since part of the EPL fantasy is to pick a new father for their kids so you cannot imagine how risky it is, it will offend the women and we know we can’t have that…

  • J

    I’ve seen both the stats and plenty of anecdotal evidence, Herb. If, God forbid, I lost my husband, I’d wait for the boys to be off to college before I let another in my home. There are conflicts that can arise even with the greatest guy that I wouldn’t care to subject my sons to.

    Even on the guy’s side, there are issues. My sons are teenagers. Any guy I’d be likely to settle down with would have just gotten through that stage of life himself. I don’t know if it’s fair to ask someone who has just happily unloaded his last teenager at some college to do it all again. It ain’t easy.

    Anecdotally, I once worked with a widow who had a longterm boyfriend of something like 8 or 10 years. She dropped her youngest at college one weekend and got married to her bf the next. She didn’t want him in the house with teens, and he didn’t want to be there. Ironically, he was a college professor.

  • Ramble

    But like you said this is something we can’t discuss in polite company since part of the EPL fantasy is to pick a new father for their kids so you cannot imagine how risky it is, it will offend the women and we know we can’t have that…

    When you offend someone from a federally designated Accepted Victim Class, then you have committed a terrible act.

  • OffTheCuff

    SayWhaat: “I don’t think I’m conservative. I’m probably less conservative than you may think.”

    Hahahaha, I felt the same way when I was your age, with my whopping count of 2. Boy, was I wrong.

    If you haven’t done casual, plus a host of other things, you are conservative. Sue’s the norm. Sassy’s a bit more liberal, Ozy is very much so. Ted is VERY conservative.

    Come back when you get a 35% on the purity test. :P

  • Alias

    Liza:
    ” Also, traditionally men are the ones who do the initiating and I don’t think this has changed for the most part. Women aren’t expected to pursue men”
    ————-
    Herb
    “God, that is classic lazy feminism…”I’m liberated so you better treat me like an equal but I expect to also be treated like a princess”.
    ———–
    > Feminism doesn’t eradicate biology.
    Are we talking about cold approaches? because if we are-
    If a woman wants sex, she can initiate and get plenty of takers. But, if what she wants is a relationship, initiating is not a smart move and sends out the message that she’s easy (even to nice betas).

    Now, if “approaching” men means- striking up a friendly conversation (not while in a bar) a la “girl day game”, or smiling and sending out better IOIs, then that’s fine.
    The fear isn’t rejection but actually acceptance from a guy who isn’t looking for a relationship.

  • J

    I know that living in misery seems to be the worst destiny ever but why can’t they fix their problems without getting a divorce?

    IDK. It was really disconcerting to me when this trend started in my social circle. There are some cases where I feel that the problems could or should have been fixed, others where it was clear to me that things really had been over and done with years before. There are a few cases, where I don’t know how one spouse hasn’t killed the other.

    I’ve mentioned my friend with the insane wife. I used to feel that you marry for better or worse, in sickness and in health, but she just won’t stay on her meds. What’s he supposed to do? Resign himself to taking the abuse she dishes out when she’s not medicated? A former employer of hers actually has a restraining order keeping her off his property. Why should my buddy stay with that when most likely in a year a two, he’ll happen upon someone he can enjoy the rest of his life with? I personally will shoot him if goes back; it’ll be a mercy killing.

  • Alias

    Liza207:
    “I gave an example of how alpha male, asshole or whatever, who approach women randomly. Men like these on many occasions have approached me and what most of them have in common is that they do not give a shit about the outcome. If I go for it fine or if I don’t fine, so what, he will just move on to another chick and just keep doing the same thing until he gets a taker. And yeah, sometimes the women are rude when rejecting them. But, to most of them, it is just a numbers game. Most of them did not attend PUA seminars, boot camps, or whatever. They don’t think they just act therefore, they don’t have time to contemplate whether or not a woman is going to reject them. ”
    ————-
    Liza,
    They may not have attended PUA camps, but I can guarantee you that the majority of them didn’t just naturally become like that but were encouraged by their environment from the time they were young.
    They’ve been approaching the opposite sex for a long time before they reach that point of obnoxiousness, oops, I mean “confidence.”

  • Alias

    correction:
    “before they reach that point of obnoxiousness, ”

    not point, level of obnoxiousness

  • Ted D

    J-” I can not imagine even the nicest guy in the world having the investment in my sons, much less the natural rapport, that my husband has. I think that having an adult male in my home who was not my sons’ father would be very risky”

    As a man that took in a 2yo little girl when he got married, and is now helping a woman raise a son and daughter along side my own son, I agree with what you said 100%. It is damned hard for me to treat all three fairely, and I can tell you that my SO and I have many conversations regarding this to do our best to make sure none of them is treated differently by either of us. It gets more complicated when you add in extended family. For instance my mother loves to spoil her grand kids, but my SO’s kids are not “hers”, so she doesn’t automatically feel like she is being unfair if she buys my son something and not the other two kids. I’ve talked to her about it, and she tries to keep that in mind. But sometimes it means that my SO and I go out and buy something for her two kids to keep it “even”. In my mother’s defense she understands the issue and really does make an effort, including taking my SO’s daughter alone for a sleep-over from time to time.

    I would have never guessed what a chore it can be to integrate families, and I’m not even talking about issues like abuse. Just from a logistical standpoint it can be a real drag on a relationship of you let it. We don’t, and yet some days it still beats us down.

  • Alias

    Escoffier:
    ” Small thing: Melissa Gilbert = Laura Ingalls Wilder. EPL author = Elizabeth Gilbert.”

    MG has always been wild, but Laura Ingalls Wilder shouldn’t be anywhere in this mix, dontcha think?

  • ExNewYorker

    @Ramble

    “With the exception of one girl (born and raised in China), all of the girls said that they were (hopefully) going into management.”

    In the areas I’m familiar with (Electrical Engineering and Computer Science), 90% of the women I’ve worked on a technical basis (as opposed to HR, Finance, etc), were foreign born. The group I’m currently in has 2 women, both who are Indian immigrants, and it’s similar down our whole row of cubes. The one American woman I sometimes work with is American born, but of Chinese immigrant parents (and she’s married to a fellow STEM guy at another company). Now this is less true in some other STEM fields, like biological and chemical sciences, but for a lot of women, they don’t have any interest in STEM at all…

  • Ramble

    Now this is less true in some other STEM fields, like biological and chemical sciences, but for a lot of women, they don’t have any interest in STEM at all…

    I saw some research, but never copied the link, that showed that the wealthier a country became, the less likely the women would major in the hard sciences, and specifically, the TEM part of STEM.

    In my experience, few girls have a genuine interest in working in fields that deal with real, objective results. And results that must be delivered on time, and be fully functional.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I’ve mentioned my friend with the insane wife. I used to feel that you marry for better or worse, in sickness and in health, but she just won’t stay on her meds. What’s he supposed to do? Resign himself to taking the abuse she dishes out when she’s not medicated? A former employer of hers actually has a restraining order keeping her off his property. Why should my buddy stay with that when most likely in a year a two, he’ll happen upon someone he can enjoy the rest of his life with? I personally will shoot him if goes back; it’ll be a mercy killing.

    Different perspectives we had a similar couple in the neighborhood but it was the male who used to go crazy without his meds and of course he refused to take them, he used strip himself naked and prance around the neighborhood when he was off meds so you can imagine how hard it was. His wife decided to take matters on her own hands and every morning she fed him the meds in a snack juice he liked so much that happened almost 30 years ago they are still together, raised a family and he hasn’t had an episode for that long.
    I know that for many people here it might seem like she is violating his individuals rights “to be freaking insane” or that she should had called it quits and move on with a sane man. But I think she deserves a medal and praise and not a “mercy killing” YMMV.

  • A definite beta guy

    The fact that she went alpha is forgivable, if she recognizes she was a moron and actually wants forgiveness.

    If she thinks it is A OK, then she has not changed, and is a divorce risk.

  • J

    @Ted,

    That’s got to be hard, but really, how can you ever treat everyone equally? It’s impossible not to feel bias for your own kids. If I were a stepmother, I doubt that I could ever view stepkids as identical to my own. I’d try hard to be good about things, but blood is blood.

  • J

    It’s terrific that she was able to do that, Ana. It’s inspiring even. Kudos to her for dealing with some very eccentric behavior, but it doesn’t seem like she’s been the bearing of the sort of endless hostility, paranoia and blame my friend has. If this were just a matter of sneaking some meds past her in her juice, I’m sure he’d have done that. Instead, his reward for dealing with someone who has been very Jekyll/Hyde-like for over 30 years was to be kicked out. At some point, her sanity has to become her responsibilty, not his.

  • Ted D

    J- at this point I think we have a pretty good balance actually. Anytime there needs to be a punishment, my SO and I talk it over quickly to make sure we both feel it’s fair. We also had to get over the knee-jerk reaction caused when someone else reprimands your child. I told her up front that I wouldn’t live wi her or her children if I was not going to be able to be a parental figure with authority to reprimand when necessary, and that I would expect the same from her regarding my children. (when we first moved together my son and daughter were with me. My daughter decided to spend her senior year with her mother, which I encouraged because there was some bad mojo between them after the separation that I hoped they could work through. I would say its better now, but not 100%. But I don’t know that it will ever be that between them again.) it takes work, communication, and a ton of trust. Truth is my SO has good kids, and I think they recognize some of the effort we put into keeping things fair.

    I wouldn’t blame any woman for being fearful of bringing a new man into her children’s lives. In my case it helped that I had two of my own that lived with me. I suppose it demonstrated my ability to be a decent dad up front. And I was actually very surprised that women saw it as a good thing. I figured no woman would want to get with an older guy with kids in tow, but I guess in my “demographic” it actually counts as a plus. :-p

  • jeu

    I haven’t made it past the first page of comments, so please forgive me if this has already been addressed, but the truth is that men and women objectify each other all the time. We assess the sexual attractiveness of the individuals with whom we interact before we asess anything else – that’s normal and not demeaning to the “object” of our assessment. It becomes demeaning when we relate to the other person as though they are an object. We all think things that we never act on, and as long as that thought process doesn’t in any way subject the other person to a dehumanizing experience there’s no harm done. If you make the other person feel like an object that’s where you’re going wrong. Yes, we assess potential mates by their attractiveness (among many other characteristics) but I don’t lose respect for a man who isn’t attractive enough to make it into my bed. I may end up with a great friend (who might end up hitting it off with one of my girls!) In short, we all make assessments – but keep them to yourself unless they are welcomed.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    It’s terrific that she was able to do that, Ana. It’s inspiring even. Kudos to her for dealing with some very eccentric behavior, but it doesn’t seem like she’s been the bearing of the sort of endless hostility, paranoia and blame my friend has. If this were just a matter of sneaking some meds past her in her juice, I’m sure he’d have done that. Instead, his reward for dealing with someone who has been very Jekyll/Hyde-like for over 30 years was to be kicked out. At some point, her sanity has to become her responsibilty, not his.

    Fair enough if this was “she was both crazy and evil” I can see how it was beyond his power in the case of my neighborhood her husband was a good man that just needed an extra help. Different people obviously.
    I mean I do agree that certain people are just beyond any level of help or commitment I stopped talking to my sociopath of a brother for almost 15 years now and I don’t plan to see him ever again. I just want to clarify that once you get your vows you should do everything within your human power to save the marriage, till the last measure. If everything fails if nothing but divine intervention can help the issues you are having then of course divorce is totally acceptable is the whole “Oh well I don’t like this marriage anymore bon voyage” what I oppose to. Divorce should be considered a tragedy only done under the most extreme circumstances, I know is not a popular opinion but is the way I think society could work for the best and I actually think that even is better for the people that leave the marriage because in the end they will get bore again with a new person anyway so trying is best than just leaving, YMMV.