Keep Your Eyes on the Prize

Herb, of the remaining 18 Ohio class subs in the USN, 14 are still classfieid SSBN and carry Tridents. Four were “down converted” to SSGN in accordance with START obligations.

One thing I hear my Navy buddies bitch about a lot is the “lack of platforms.” With 3,000, >5,000 if you count the wing.

Isn’t this fun for the ladies!

@J

Not one thing I said had to do with how the woman percieves him.
Everything about being first being good comes from the male perspective. The womans perspective is unimportant.

I don’t agree with feminists, or JM, who believe that judging a person’s attractiveness is objectification.

Then you don’t agree with Nussbaum either.

If you don’t see how deciding based on attraction how one is going to deal with a person constitutes using him “as a tool for one’s own purposes,” then there’s no getting through to you.

Mind you, I’m not saying all objectification is bad. But if your treatment of a person is largely determined by your own ego-driven desires, then you have “objectified” that person.

@Ana

This was just one female commenter reaction. I didn’t found it creepy I can relate to holding out hope in order not to put a bullet in your brain or go insane.

That was my point in saying it reveals more about the judger than the judge.

That I wasn’t surprised was based on my experience with American born and raised women. YMMV.

“That men might not want what they rejected or that men might have desires of their own never seemed to cross their mind.”

I have no doubt that this is true of the broad mass of men. Nonetheless, it’s interesting how so many men are able to tell themselves that being a “kept man” would be a great thing. Who wants to work if he doesn’t have to? If her money comes from a chain of liquor stores, that’s like winning the lottery!

A lot of men seem to believe that they would want this but then if/when they get it, they find that they don’t like it at all.

The flipside to that is all these career gals who think they want completely domesticated husbands and then they get one and they find they hold him in total contempt. There was a very long NY Mag piece about this recently, Manhattan uber-wenches who make tons of cash, who either marry slackers or whose husbands drop their careers, or else they keep at it but earn way less than wifey. The whole point of the piece was to show how almost none of these women–all of them feminists, of course–actually loved the guys any more. There were maybe two examples of marriages that were “working” in any recognizable sense.

But at least they had “found someone”! Future career gals may not even get that far.

That I wasn’t surprised was based on my experience with American born and raised women. YMMV.

I also think we need to take in account that Sassy is really hot, a woman and not afraid to initiate contact with a man that she finds attractive all that makes less likely for her to be in a situation were the object of her affections was so out of reach that holding out to something, anything from him would be the last line towards wholeness and sanity. I’m sure women that had to add some ketchup to their feelings and eat them out can see this in a different way, YMMV.

Ugh, I can’t believe I’m still frequenting this site. (and actually reading all the comments)
I’m really starting to wonder whether it is serving me any good.

Everytime I visit, I leave thinking that if I keep doing what I am, which I fear could describe it as “omega, or (worse),”-OffTheCuff#38 that I will actually find love before the end of my twenties.

“I know it sucks to wait, I’m not saying it doesn’t. [by then] girls that age are literally starving for attention from men who will commit.” -Susan#25

Although deep-down, I feel that is complete wrong.

I feel that leaves me to “cry and think about the future and [my] glorious, slightly used wife.” -Lokland #40

@Sassy
And by “used,” IMO it refers to women who have done one of the following:
“a) screws around (even with a few guys, casual or serious) or
b) lets her SMV drop while she sits out.” -Lokland#75

There’s no doubt that as I progress through my twenties my SMV will continue to rise. (along with my knowledge of Game)

…. I just completely lost my train of thought.
I just feel I ought to stay away.
There’s no benifit for me to literally wait until women are “starving for attention from men who will commit.”
Which is usually the consensus I leave with, after visiting HUS.

@Charm
“I mean if you’re a 30 year old male looking to settle down, you certainly wouldn’t be looking in 29-30 age range for those “desperate” women now would you? You’d be looking a lower. Are women in the 23-27 range all used up and jaded as well?”

I’m not exactly following. Are you suggesting I wait until I’m 30, until I can attract 23-27YOs?

Not one thing I said had to do with how the woman percieves him.
Everything about being first being good comes from the male perspective. The womans perspective is unimportant.

OK, whatever. I shared something fairly personal with you guys hoping to save you a little pain. If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t. It’s not something I care to argue about.

J – “OK, whatever. I shared something fairly personal with you guys hoping to save you a little pain. If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t. It’s not something I care to argue about”

Don’t get upset J, I don’t think anyone is trying to put you down for being open and honest. But, you have to understand that the truth of it is: men aren’t concerned with what a woman is or is not thinking about when it comes to some of this stuff. I’ve been told, repeatedly to infinity, that most women simply don’t think about their past lovers and certainly in most cases never compare their current lovers to them. That doesn’t change my concerns about that in the least, because I can never KNOW beyond all doubt that this is true.

Its the same with being “the first”. I can remember hearing older women talk about how a girl “never forgets her first love”, and how at the time it made me feel like any guy that shows up after him will be at a disadvantage. It may or may not be true, but that feeling stuck with me when I was young and impressionable, and I have never been able to fully shake it. Also, every single man I know that I have discussed this with feels a sense of wanting to be “the first” in some way for their mate. Of course being the first lover to a virgin satisfies that desire, but it isn’t realistic in today’s world. So, I find other ways to satisfy it. For instance, in my current relationship I am the first man my SO has worn shoes to bed for. That may not be as great an “accomplishment” as being her first lover, but at least I feel like I have something with her that NO other man can lay claim to. And, as sad as it to admit, it really is about that exactly. It bothers me to NO END that other men can “claim” to have already “had” my SO. Yes, I realize just how chauvinistic and piggish that sounds, but it is the ugly truth. I will always feel like I lost the race to be first, and that has absolutely NO bearing on how my SO feels or thinks.

I assume it is a male thing, since I have yet to ever hear this from a woman…

I assume it is a male thing, since I have yet to ever hear this from a woman…

I did wanted to date a male virgin but as I got older I decided that it was unrealistic for me so I gave it up. I wouldn’t want to be someone’s second wife for example or have a man that already had kids I wanted to be first mother to his children too, there are other first for me specially in bed department, interesting enough since my husband’s last girlfriend before me was an older twice divorcee and she still wouldn’t do certain stuff, nothing major just not a lot of variety an eagerness to please him. I’m happy about some things no other woman, the very few before me, did to my husband but me, YMMV.

@Ana

there are other first for me specially in bed department, interesting enough since my husband’s last girlfriend before me was an older twice divorcee and she still wouldn’t do certain stuff, nothing major just not a lot of variety an eagerness to please him.

If more women got that instead of being resentful their husband/bf would like it if they occasionally wore lingerie thought of it as fun they’d be amazed at the things husbands would do for them elsewhere in life.

I was going to make a smart assed remark about “he doesn’t worry about your body image” I realized it did give me a good opening to explain to J why her sharing didn’t achieve her goal.

My ex-wife was always heavy until the end. She was a big girl (ie, clearly overweight) when we met. Yet I choose her. I, like just about every man in America, encouraged her to wear something sexy to bed. She did, in over a decade of dating and marriage, three times. She was sullen and resentful and made it clear it was all for me and I owed her each time.

Part of her problem, not all but part, was body issues. They affected our sex life in a lot of ways (and, I didn’t learn until the end, affected her opinion of me). I never had a problem with her weight (nor, at the end, when she lost it, did it matter to me that she did). I married her for a whole host of reasons that had nothing to do with her weight except maybe that she was chesty (she had a pretty face until she got…bitter I guess and a great smile before anything thinks I’m claiming “nice personality” alone and calls BS).

One mistake I realize now I made when body issues inferred with our sex life was to point it it didn’t matter to me. In saying that I was basically dismissing all the hell she’d suffered over it thinking me not caring should make it all go away. Now, over time with me it should have but I actually helped prevent that from happening from being cavalier about it.

So, when several men describe how something is important and valuable and your first sentence is “really, it doesn’t matter to women so why should you care” it has the same effect as me telling my ex-wife that she body image issues shouldn’t matter because I loved her.

Anyway, the reason I quoted The Things They Carried was that Sue mentioned that guys wanting to “get there first” was a sort of petulance on their part. Of course, Cross’s need to believe he would one day “get there first” is greatly exaggerated by the fact that he’s living in a tropical hell, but I don’t think it’s petulant at all.

Traditionally, men have gone out into the world and hunted, fought, worked their asses off building the world. And I think they probably wanted to come home to women who they knew were theirs and theirs alone. They wanted to go to their women to get away from the world. They wanted someone who would bond solidly to them, a soft place to fall, a special sanctuary, etc…

It may not be realistic in most cases, but I don’t think it’s petulant.

JM,

Been good. Thanks for asking.

And then the part about wishing he would’ve carried her to her room, tied her up, and touched her left knee all night? Talk about insight into the character: all that masculine sexual passion coupled with painfully innocent boyish naivete (her left knee for chrissakes!).

Not only that, but it shows that he is beginning to lose his mind a bit, I think. He knows damn well that he would do a lot more than just touch her left knee, but he can’t or won’t allow himself to think beyond that because it would destroy her innocence for him. I think the thought her being a virgin is helping him get through this. It is helping him retain much of his sanity as well.

Heh, I’m saying all of this having only read what you posted. I haven’t read the whole story.

but he can’t or won’t allow himself to think beyond that because it would destroy her innocence for him.

Yea, that makes sense, too. I didn’t even think about it that way.

But yes, the thought of her being a virgin is definitely helping him to get through the war.

I’m not exactly angry or upset, Ted. I just see that my efforts didn’t have the intended effect, so I’m not going to pour in more ineffective effort. If you guys want to feel things that just make you unhappy in the longrun, and I can’t stop that, well then, there’s nothing I can do. In say that with more sadness than anything else.

Herb, I think it’s unfortunate that your wife couldn’t accept that her weight problem didn’t affect your desire for her. There’s a lot of societal programming that makes life hard for heavy girls. I went through a period where I thought my “post-baby body” would not appeal to my husband. I eventually accepted that it did. We are both happier because I was able to get over that hump. Sometimes, you have to make your own happiness.

Cooper:
“And by “used,” IMO it refers to women who have done one of the following:
“a) screws around (even with a few guys, casual or serious) or
b) lets her SMV drop while she sits out.” -Lokland#75″
———-
Really?
I always thought “used” referred to:
c) had high hopes to entice that bad boy with sex but got p & d-ed

I think that is something a lot of Susan’s readers could learn and then figure out their own forms of proof and deploy them before the sex demand on date N. For date two cook him dinner, maybe. I don’t know, be creative ladies.

The subject has come up before with the consensus that first dates should be cheap dates that feature a lot of conversation/interaction. I myself have suggested parks, zoos, and museums as great first date venues that allow people to get to know each other in a safe, low investment way. Cooking dinner for two is tricky because it means having the guy alone in your apartment. That often telegraphs a desire for sex.

Incidentally, I have told my “banana cream pie” story here before, but here it is again. When we were dating, my DH mentioned that he loved banan cream pie. I made him one and brought it over to his house. He was thrilled to have it and immediately cut himself a piece, offering me one. I refused, telling him about how I almost chocked to death on a banana as a kid and how the mere smell of them makes me sick. Then I assured him that I hadn’t been sick on the pie. Needless to say, he was quite flattered to have gotten the pie–you know, before I actually surrender the other pie.

charm
“because they put out, is because they are raised to believe that the only thing men ever wanted from women was sex.”
————
I might be confusing posters, but I think it may have been SayWhaat who mentioned on another thread that her grandmother told her (paraphrasing): that men do pursue women for sex, but that this was their way of evaluating if the women were “good girls” or “bad girls.”
That’s the message I was also given.
In this way, good men pursuing women for sex isn’t seen as perverse.

But he should also be a man who has always been relationship minded.

So, any casual sex in a man’s history would disqualify him?

Part of a man wants to be assured that his woman is his and that her heart pines for him and him alone.

Also, if we are looking back, if a man had sex with a virgin, stayed attached at the hip to her afterwards, and soon she bore a child, he could be confident that it was his.

Ramble, good point.

For all we talk about how feminism hasn’t changed the biological double-standard, it sure has done a terrific job of convincing men that they don’t want a virgin. Virginal, maybe, but most certainly not a virgin.

And I don’t like to be referred to as a fucking “pot”, JM. Talk about objectification!

SayWhaat,
was it your grandmother who said something about men testing women to see if they’re good or bad girls by escalating, or am I confusing you with another poster?

SayWhaat
“For all we talk about how feminism hasn’t changed the biological double-standard, it sure has done a terrific job of convincing men that they don’t want a virgin. Virginal, maybe, but most certainly not a virgin.”

You must’ve missed the memo that said “virgins are prudes” “promiscuous girls are better in bed”.
Promiscuous girls must’ve been virgins at some point or were they born promiscuous?

Anacaona:
“This was not my reasons.”
———
Women expect (not to be confused with “demand”) that men will have had experience.

You do bring up some valid reasons.
It’s natural to think that a non-religious guy, an older guy, etc. isn’t going to be a virgin.
I meant, generally speaking, most women believe that inexperienced men don’t exist and if they do there must be something wrong with them. It’s one reason why chaste/low# women avoid asking about men’s sexual histories, especially when they’re in an environment where men are under control and not feral.

Agh, clicked submit too soon.

Anacaona,
What I was saying is that when people hear “men are pigs” all of their life, the corollary becomes;
- men think all women are innocent
- and women think all men are guilty
Hence, many men are shocked that women can be promiscuous
and
many women are shocked that men can be virgins/low #.

Alias,

The last time I heard a guy talk about how he didn’t want to be with a virgin, I had to stop myself from snarkily replying, “weren’t you a virgin once? Oh wait, you were literally born with your P in V. My bad.”

P.S.- Anacaona
I take that back…
You were only asked (it’s changing) to pick one team if you’re a woman.
Men played the field and then got the chaste girl (but those days are over.)

Men played the field and then got the chaste girl (but those days are over.)

I will say that there was the expectation of catholic men to be chaste as well but it was one of the things the boys ignored once out of mass and that no one in society pressured them to do so boys had “token” virginity talks while women had everyone expecting and pressuring them to keep their legs shut. And given the consequences or not doing so were fast and severe for women while very few women actually enforced the virginity clause for their future husbands, women were easier went along with it.

Anacaona:
“This is probably the most succinct explanation of how sexuality worked back in the day I came of age in Latin America,”
——-
> In Europe too and I’m sure in other parts of the world, but slowly dying.
Some might rejoice of this fact, but I was hoping both genders would’ve been held equally accountable.

Ana:
“Things started slowly to change and nowadays there is a huge class division upper and middle class hoping to go up try to be “selective or virgin” while everyone else is in a ghetto mess of sex for fun, money, socialization, boringness… yes there is more freedom to do whatever you want to but to what cost?”
———
> Yeah, it’s divided by class. And class doesn’t always mean economic priviledge but often extends to being raised – with a father, in a religious home, or moving to a place where the majority of the people share the same values.
Making the wrong choice in those countries, for most, means sentencing your children to a lifetime of membership to the lower class. And that’s not looking down one’s nose in a snooty way, but depriving your child/ren of a better life. One must remember that most Latin-American countries don’t have all of the social programs that the USA has.

Susan:
“I don’t know a single woman who longs for the alpha that got away.”

ROFL
This was just as funny as Ted D’s
: alphas saying “where have all the sluts gone?”
LOL

Ah ha ha ha ha

Sorry, Susan, I was laughing so hard I forgot to include the context.

Ted D on another thread wrote that he wasn’t convinced by women (something or other, honestly don’t remember right now) until all the alphas say “where have all the sluts gone?”

It really doesn’t matter if you are pining for your lost lovers or not. What matters is that a certain subset of women, open question how large, engaged in very vigorous carousel riding and got bored, and now are pursuing so-called “nice guys.”

I do not want to hitch my wagon to that, and yes, we feel horribly used that we weren’t good enough for 5 minutes of alpha yet somehow good enough for 50 years of beta. We feel horribly scared that they will develop that taste for alpha again, especially since cheating and divorce isn’t rare or even frowned upon. Most of us wonder if she is fully committed to us, and the evidence we have suggests that, no, she isn’t, her mate-bonding potential is damaged from even one prior partner, let alone twenty.

Perhaps the advice of “look for one who didn’t ride the carousel” would work, if it were actually common knowledge. Women can lie. Women’s friends can lie. And a lot of us are beta because we can’t read body language very well, whereas a post-grad woman will have been practicing this for 10+ years.

Dismissing our desires and fears will get you exactly nowhere. Which is…well…what most women do. If you want to build consensus, you have to understand the other party and their emotions and interests.

Should also add the cautionary tale that beta does not mean nice.

Sue,

Makes sense. I think “used” is an unfair term for a woman who’s chosen to have sex in the context of a relationship.

What’s the fundamental difference between the desire to have a virgin and the desire to have a girl who has a low partner count? We’ve heard it said before that LTRs are NOT marriages, so what’s wrong with a guy who wants a girl who will wait till the real deal for the real deal?

That men have accepted some degree of sexuality in the context of premarital relationships represents a good deal of compromise and emotional maturity.

Saywhaat,

And I don’t like to be referred to as a fucking “pot”, JM. Talk about objectification!

And from here it seemed you were enjoying your new-found status as “sex pot.”

A Definite Beta Guy, there aren’t a lot of guys (in Western countries) who will wait until after the marriage ceremony to have sex with a girl, even a virgin who hasn’t done anything sexual.

So if guys want a girl who waits for the real deal, but they won’t give her the real deal until after they’ve taken her for a “test drive,” what is she supposed to do?

As I recall there was a Catholic female commenter here by the name of Bellita who has that problem. There was also another female in the manosphere nicknamed Alias Clio who said she was getting quite old, but still a single virgin. Eventually she did find a fellow Catholic man and got married.

As for male crying, what is wrong with it? I prefer a man who will cry to a man who refuses to ever shed tears. I don’t think it’s a “good thing” per se, but it does make me feel closer and fall deeper in love with the man if we are already close.

If my husband hadn’t been willing to show such emotion, we probably wouldn’t be together today. Maybe that’s opposite of what other women want, but I’m not afraid of emotions.

No, not any. I didn’t mean to imply people are perfect or anything and that a couple ruins you forever. But how many times a person needs to have casual sex to determine its “not for them” says something about the person. A couple of times is understandable, but 20 ONSs? Not so much.

and

I don’t need to have casual sex to know its not for me. Just like I never needed to get blackout drunk to realize I don’t like losing gaps of time. So, while I understand some people have to do it before they learn it, I’d ideally like to avoid that kind of person. Its not my thing.

It’s interesting how extreme the comparisons are.

Casual Sex ~ Some Drinking (No)

Casual Sex ~ Back Out Drunk with Memory Loss (Yes)

Now, I understand why girls would NOT want to have any casual sex. I completely understand. I would also understand someone wanting their future husband to have had no casual sex at all. Everyone has their interests ans standards.

But, in general, guys can have some casual sex without it making them some sort of Lacrosse playing douche-bag.

Nor, will he need to regret the casual sex, or see it as opposing, or preventing, a long lasting monogamous relationship.

Susan:
“It’s worth less than it once was, because someone drove it off the lot and took a ride. In my view, the choice of language reflects a bruised male ego”
———

I know it’s hard not to take it personally when we’re being compared to products but..
I do want to point out that when we’re discussing the SMP (sexual marketplace), we’re bound to objectify people by using economic terms to describe the exchange of sex for resources.
It’s difficult to get around that.

But how about the use of the term “used” when referring to other relationships, like friendships or relatives?
For ex- “My brother thinks he can use me to do all of his dirty work for him.”
“I feel so used, she only calls me when she needs a favor”
The implication being that you’re giving more than you are receiving.

@Susan, J

“That’s not really true, because Rollo for example, stirs up a lot of anxiety (heh) in guys with the Man A vs. Man B theory. J is saying it’s not a valid theory. So if men believe it, they would probably benefit from changing their perspective. Of course, you can still choose to be threatened, but you should at least be aware that the theory is bogus.”

Doesn’t matter if the theory is bogus.
Matters how the perciever (the dude) feels about the situation. Perception is reality.
I think your misunderstanding, this is not some learned idea. Its inner, core instinct.

So if dude percieves it as bad (for any reason) to not get there first, its bad, for him. How the woman feels about it, is irrelevant. How she thinks he should feel, is criminal.

As for J, lovely story lucky you la la la. Ohh I suppose you forgot we were talking about the guys feelings.
No worries I don’t blame you for that.

Men have no emotions. Thats what the lady on the tv said.

In all seriousness, good for dodging your bullet. I’m glad your happy.

Ever since Roissy said that women prefer 5 minutes of alpha to 30 years with beta, not only have guys swallowed it whole, they’ve also warped the concept into believing that all women have been with an alpha for five minutes – the best five minutes of her life. I call BS, that’s all.

+1 on this, too. It is BS, but it isn’t Roissy that came up with the idea. That’s the fear sitting in the heart of every “beta” who came of age sitting on the sidelines. Roissy just capitalized on the fear.

Slow day at work today, so youns are gonna get bombarded with a full 14 hours of my mind-vomit, in concentrated form.

Sorry ’bout this….

JM said:

“by doing so, conjuring up the spectrum of possibilities inherent in the human. ”
______________________________

Colonel: You write “Born to kill” on your helmet, and you wear a peace button. What’s that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke?

Private Joker: No, sir!

Colonel: What is it supposed to mean?

Private Joker: I don’t know, sir!

Colonel: You don’t know very much, do you?

Private Joker: No, sir!

Colonel: You better get your head and your ass wired together, or I will take a giant shit on you!

Private Joker: Yes, sir!

Colonel: Now answer my question or you’ll be standing tall before the man!

Private Joker: I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir!

Colonel: The what?

Private Joker: The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir!

Colonel: Whose side are you on, son?

Private Joker: Our side, sir!

Colonel: Don’t you love your country?

Private Joker: Yes, sir!

Colonel: Then how ‘bout getting with the program? Why don’t you jump on the team and come on in for the big win?

Private Joker: Yes, sir!

Male Perspective said:

“Hey great idea. Why don’t guys who bombed out with girls in college return to same college once they’ve matured and come more into their own? Anyone here tried that? Results?”
_____________________________

I never really “bombed out” with girls, but I am going back to school after some time in the military and the real world.

I have done very well for myself in….ahh…..Women’s Studies.

Dogsquat,

You realize your avatar looks like a picture of a gay blow-up doll, mouth perpetually prepared for a face-fucking, don’t you?

J said:

“OK, whatever. I shared something fairly personal with you guys hoping to save you a little pain. If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t. It’s not something I care to argue about”
_____________________________

I was struck by how similar I’ve felt as you did when you typed the quoted words.

You agonize over three paragraphs for half an hour, summarizing ten years of your life and twenty of someone else’s. You confess things you’ve never even told your therapist. You think:

“FINALLY! MY SUFFERING HAS PURPOSE! WHAT I’VE SAID HERE WILL HELP SOMEONE!”

And then…..nobody notices, or they comment on your mixing of tenses or go off on a tangent about a word you didn’t use.

Keep at it, though. Lots of readers never comment. I, for one, wish I’d read your story 10 years ago.

You never know who you’re gonna impact.

I have no sympathy if they elect to hook up regularly or go casual even occasionally.

True. Though I took her to mean that there are plenty of girls not hooking up or going casually with alphas.

Susan said:

I’m telling them that when they do get into a relationship it is invalid, not to mention unproductive, to worry that the woman is suffering in silence from some sort of alpha hangover. Especially since very few women date alphas, and very few even have sex with alphas. This whole meme seems like a fabricated scare tactic. you.”
______________________________

Hmm.

You are correct, but not blanket-everything-like-fire-suppression-foam-does correct.

The problem is not what you’re saying – it’s that guys aren’t going to believe you in their guts, where it matters, until/unless they live it themselves.

Hell, I once dumped a bisexual ex-model who worked as a professional dancer (modern dance, not a stripper) and had a sizable trust fund. I don’t miss her at all. That girl was nuts, and made my life miserable. The only positive thing I got out of that relationship is…well, getting out of it.

I get what you’re saying. I hear and believe you. If I heard it from a woman I loved these days, I’d understand. Even just five years ago, though? Fugeddaboutit. I’d eject so fast Goose would smash into the canopy.

Ladies, please refrain from saying stuff like,”Well, even though my ex had millions of dollars, 8-pack abs, and a tan, athletic, 12-inch cock, I don’t miss him at all. I love you more! Your imperfections are why! They make you who you are, and I love that!”

Now, some guys might understand and believe what you’re trying to get across.

But a lot of guys wont.

And you can never erase the image from his mind.

By the way, Sassy –

I like reading what you have to say, and the above is utterly, totally, 100% a joke. I was really bored today is all.

You are listed under the heading “All Right” in The Book of Dogsquat.

I also think folks were a little hard on you for your comment about Lt Cross earlier. You’ve probably never thought about that stuff much, and were honest in your reaction. No shame in that, at all.

Dog: “Except for those poor dudes born by Cesarean section. Those are the true virgins.”

I know everyone else thinks you are Louis CK and Seinfeld’s hilarious love-child, and indeed, you are 527 times more entertaining this this old bag of meat (unless I am a few hundred milligrams deep into the muscle relaxants, cheap whiskey, and perhaps a soupçon of mostly, but not quite, legal narctoics; in which case it is only perhaps 37 times as such), but…

Finally you wrote something really funny. Haaaaa!!

Thanks. Dogsquat. I really appreciate that.

I also appreciate Susan chiming in with her similar view on the subject.

Hope, I didn’t realize any of that about Clio. I’m happy to hear she got married. Kids?

ADBG said:

“What you said about gushing over the alpha? That’s what I am talking about. You are mostly healed, but they will forever be a tender spot. A tender spot people insist on poking by accident, because they insist they did NOTHING wrong. Even though their actions directly made you miserable for years. You are the one who is wrong, not them.

Why wouldn’t you get pissed at that? You have taken the effort to improve yourself. They have no taken whatsoever to make you feel more comfortable in society. None. Zero. They will go right back to chewing you up and spitting you out if you regress because they think they committed no crime.”

_______________________________

I would like to offer you a different way of looking at this idea, if I may:

Before going further, please understand that I know what you’re going through, having gone through my own version a while back. The following might sound a trifle condescending, but I’m showing one possible way you can jettison some anger:

Imagine solutions to the (real and painful) issues you’ve experienced. Break out a few sentences and really think:

“A tender spot people insist on poking by accident, because they insist they did NOTHING wrong.”

These folks fucked who they wanted to fuck, and hung out with people they wanted to hang out with. Isn’t that what you want to do? Is it wrong for them but not for you?

What is the alternative? Here’s one:

For a proper fee, I will spend up to a week with the girl of your choice. I’ll make her ask out a guy she doesn’t like. I’ll give him money to take her out to a nice dinner. I’ll follow her into the bathroom to make sure she doesn’t ditch him. I will apply duct tape to her mouth moments before she says anything the guy would construe as hurtful.

If she doesn’t laugh at his jokes, I’ll give her a touch of Tazer. Through operant conditioning or possibly CBT, I will train her to like Anime, baseball, and Insane Clown Posse. I will give her a quota of 1.7 admiring statements per hour when clothed. She will emit 12.2 per hour when discussing sexual relations with him, rounding up to the nearest whole number for each sexual encounter.

Do you think the guy will like this?

What are you gonna do when I show up behind you at the bar with instructions to take a dumb, fat, and smelly girl to the Justin Beiber concert?

Keep in mind that I’m a professional, and my loyalty is to my customer.

If she paid me to make sure you hang out with her, well, that’s what you’re gonna do. I don’t like Twilight fan fiction either, but she does. She wants you to like it, too. So you’ll “like” it, because it will hurt too much not to.

And when she looks up at you at the end of the date, tilts her head for a kiss, and smiles – kiss her and mean it, or I’ll smash your left kidney into Dialysisland. I don’t give a good goddamn that she’s got spinach plastered across four crooked teeth from the appetizer you bought her 8 hours ago. She’s paying to get what she wants, and you don’t get a say.

That, my friend, is the only way I can think of to make people do what you want. Sound good?

…..

“Even though their actions directly made you miserable for years.”

Here’s another way of thinking:

You chose to let people make you miserable.

Somebody is an asshole? Don’t hang out with them. Parents fuck you up? Get some therapy and do a better job when it’s your turn. Get dumped? There’s always another woman – no shit.

You’re miserable because you lack the tools to shape your environment. Which is more productive – learning those tools, or begging for everyone else to cater to your whims?

Shit in one hand, wish in the other, as the saying goes.

…….

“You are the one who is wrong, not them.”

That is the critical vulnerability, the fulcrum of your outlook.

Listen – there is no “right” or “wrong” here. Sure, maybe in the grand philosophic sense there is, but we’re talking micro level, day-to-day shit now.

Your life is your responsibility. You are responsible for enforcing your boundaries. People will do what they want, most times, and….so will you.

………

It helps, sometimes, to imagine an alien anthropologist analyzing your life, sometime far in the future. What would it say?

“Ah, I see the being known as ADBG learned from his mistakes. He corrected his faulty conditioning and applied the new knowledge. This being became Happy.”

-or-

“Hmmm….This human retreated to fantasy. In it’s youth, it absorbed faulty information. Ultimately it proved unable to adapt to objective reality, and so failed to pass on it’s genetic material. It turned to Cheetos and whiskey for solace. We think it was afflicted with the disease called Irrational Anger, for which there was no cure.”

Just a thought for you to consider. Again, I’m really not talking shit or talking down to you. I’ve been where you are. It sucks. You have a lot of work to do – none of which you volunteered for.

If you’d like to discuss this further with me, feel free to do so. I will help you if I can.

@OTC

“I know everyone else thinks you are Louis CK and Seinfeld’s hilarious love-child,”
__________________

My boner just went away. Jesus is gonna be pissed.

Imagine those two dudes fucking in a bus station bathroom, and you to will be bonerless.

Definite Beta

What you said about gushing over the alpha? That’s what I am talking about. You are mostly healed, but they will forever be a tender spot. A tender spot people insist on poking by accident, because they insist they did NOTHING wrong. Even though their actions directly made you miserable for years. You are the one who is wrong, not them.

Why wouldn’t you get pissed at that? You have taken the effort to improve yourself. They have no taken whatsoever to make you feel more comfortable in society. None. Zero. They will go right back to chewing you up and spitting you out if you regress because they think they committed no crime.

THAT is why there is not going to be any healing. And it will continue for a while, because while we are progressing, we aren’t anywhere close to finished.

You know, I’ve been thinking about this. I don’t feel bitter. I used to be very bitter, true, but I don’t really feel bitter now. However, I think that those years of bitterness, and the experiences that led to my bitterness, have definitely shaped me. I’m very much anti-power, anti-establishment, anti-authority, anti-”pure” alpha as a result of my experiences. I’ve made it my mission in life to thwart power and authority and to support others who do the same, to lend a hand to the meek and poor and powerless, to confuse and frustrate and stymie people of power and status, and, when possible, to dissemble the power structure in order to give some freedom to the underdogs.

So my antenna goes up: anybody who supports the “alpha” or is attracted to the pure alpha is an opponent.

The only way to let go of the bitterness is to stop thinking in terms of what you lack and start thinking in terms of what you have. If you live your life as an expression of your deepest purpose, then I think you’re naturally going to attract people with similar ideas and values.

There are women around who are looking for a definite beta guy, who are not and have never been attracted to anything like the pure alpha.

However, I think that those years of bitterness, and the experiences that led to my bitterness, have definitely shaped me. I’m very much anti-power, anti-establishment, anti-authority, anti-”pure” alpha as a result of my experiences. I’ve made it my mission in life to thwart power and authority and to support others who do the same, to lend a hand to the meek and poor and powerless, to confuse and frustrate and stymie people of power and status, and, when possible, to dissemble the power structure in order to give some freedom to the underdogs.

I can relate. I can really relate. I don’t know many people who haven’t felt like the “underdog” at least once in their life. I feel like it’s been my life story.

I was thinking about this today as well. I may not be bitter now that I’m in a relationship, but those experiences before my bf have shaped me, in some ways that I don’t know yet if I like, or can appreciate. If things don’t work out with my bf and I end up dating again (*shudder*) I will probably have a giant chip on my shoulder because every guy will be just another dipshit who rejected me because of my virginity — especially if he doesn’t reject me this time.

I dunno. I hope I don’t get to that point.

/midnightwordvomit

DS:

I agree with you on almost everything you said. Few years post college here, had some positive experiences since then, and can command my emotional state pretty well: no where near as bitter as I used to be, and hopefully that gets less and less with time.

The biggest problem for a Beta Guy, IMO, is recognizing his own fault. There’s nothing wrong in your taser-story. It doesn’t require any spinning at all. Beta Guys weren’t attractive to girls, weren’t putting in the effort to make themselves attractive, were too focused on bitterness: that’s their own problem.

What I reject is that idea that there is no blame. I’m not down with the “fuck whoever you want” mentality anymore than I am down with “Everyone should eat all the cupcakes in the world.” Indulging base instincts with no regard to consequences leads to bad places. So, no, it’s not exactly that I want to fuck who I want, when I want.

That sort of outlook seems toxic to me. But, meh, I’m not the one who’s going to get hurt by it anymore, so why not?

Sue,

Do men feel the same way if they have intelligence that the woman lost her virginity to the winner of the Science Fair?

Of course not. But for many guys, the alpha is the enemy. Imagine a Jewish guy finding out that his gf lost her virginity to a skin head. And then hearing how, despite his sexy bald scalp and his hot tattoos, she’s just over skin heads, so it shouldn’t matter to the Jewish bf.

Why do you have no empathy for the women who get literally nothing? Why is it their responsibility to go sex up beta men?

So I don’t get it, are you putting the girl who couldn’t find a bf, but spent weekends making out with various higher status guys to the boy who found it almost impossible to even get a kiss?