“Why do you have no empathy for the women who get literally nothing? Why is it their responsibility to go sex up beta men?”
A girl saying “I only made out with an alpha every night but thats not what I really wanted” to the guy who hasn’t been in a relationship or made out with any pretty girl is actually cruel.
It screams “accept me for all my fuckups”.
So hypothetically,
Woman, no relationship, make out.
Men, no relationship, no make out.
How you can conflate those is equal is utterly beyond me.
To your second question, its not. Its also not mens responsibility to forgive women their fuck-ups either.
The alpha is the enemy. Game (at least as I understand it) is about developing a balanced set of alpha/beta traits. But the pure alpha is the enemy.
And this, btw, is the disconnect. The women are saying, whatever, we’ve moved on, what’s the problem? The problem is that women find the enemy attractive.
So I don’t get it, are you putting the girl who couldn’t find a bf, but spent weekends making out with various higher status guys on an equal footing with the boy who found it almost impossible to even get a kiss?
@Jesus
No, I’m talking about the girl who didn’t go to parties and make out with randoms in school. She’s the beta female – going to classes, has some girlfriends from the dorm, is mostly invisible to guys, or at least feels that way. Never gets singled out or invited out by the opposite sex.
If we assume that the girls making out with random high status guys are the girls that eventually have sex with random high status guys, then we’re still only talking about 9% of female students – at most. I don’t think girls who hook up routinely draw the line at making out – if they try, word gets around they’re prudes, i.e. a waste of time.
This isn’t a new concept I’m introducing here. It’s long been my contention that up to 80% of both sexes are pretty miserable in this SMP, because there’s no real way for them to participate. Again, the goals are different. The guys have no access to physical intimacy, and the girls have no access to emotional intimacy.
A girl saying “I only made out with an alpha every night but thats not what I really wanted” to the guy who hasn’t been in a relationship or made out with any pretty girl is actually cruel.
It screams “accept me for all my fuckups”.
That’s not the story I told. I spent three years in an LTR with a guy who happens to have been alpha. It wasn’t a fuckup, and I make no apologies for it. The same is true for J’s story. You extrapolated it to make a new argument – having to do with whether women rode the carousel.
The alpha is the enemy. Game (at least as I understand it) is about developing a balanced set of alpha/beta traits. But the pure alpha is the enemy.
Game is about ridding oneself of beta traits entirely. See the Ro’s. It’s about becoming pure alpha. Athol adapted Game to include relationship maintenance or improvement. Game was codified as a method of getting laid, not getting into a relationship, though it was always acknowledged that a pure alpha could get that if he wanted.
You have only to witness the pushback I get here from beta guys re their own beta traits to see this. Whenever I champion or defend a trait considered beta, several guys will express that they’re worried I’m giving hapless beta males the wrong message. I get the same resistance from male commenters when I criticize pure alpha behavior.
Your focus on Inner Game, Athol’s focus on marriage Game – these might be considered Game 2.0.
No, I’m talking about the girl who didn’t go to parties and make out with randoms in school. She’s the beta female – going to classes, has some girlfriends from the dorm, is mostly invisible to guys, or at least feels that way. Never gets singled out or invited out by the opposite sex.
And this, btw, is the disconnect. The women are saying, whatever, we’ve moved on, what’s the problem? The problem is that women find the enemy attractive.
Well now we’re back to defining alpha, which is always problematic. When a woman sees a man with a handsome, symmetrical face, a fit body and a confident grin – is he alpha? Does she think in those terms? Or might he be Jesus Mahoney, an attractive mix of physical and emotional traits? She doesn’t know yet. She’s initially attracted physically, and she needs to become better acquainted to see if this is a man she wants to get to know better with an eye toward long-term mating.
If he opens his mouth and is stupid, she’ll be repulsed. If he opens his mouth and is a dick, she will hopefully be repulsed. Has he just demonstrated that he is alpha? If he opens his mouth and engages her in witty banter with a smile, is he alpha? Good alpha or bad alpha? How about if he helps carry her groceries? Beta?
Women are wired to take their time in evaluating men as potential sexual partners. What we see in the current SMP is that some women are making snap judgments based on entirely superficial factors. Game theorists would call those factors the definition of alpha, but I’ve known some good looking beta guys who do very well attracting women for short-term, but have no interest in dating promiscuous women.
If alpha is defined as “guy women want to fuck” then looks is most of it. Because those are the guys women throw themselves at for ONSs.
But since this isn’t a perfect world, and there is a ton of pressure in the media for people behave a certain way sexually, there are probably a fair portion of relationship minded people who try out casual sex since “its all the rave”. Now I could maintain a rigid stance and say “no way no how” to every single person that has ever had casual sex, but how many people would I miss out on? I mean, doing it a couple of times and regretting it (while certainly not ideal) isn’t the same as a guy who learns game and makes it his mission to bang 50 number of girls by his 25th birthday like its all a game.
Charm, what if the guy did NOT feel pressured by the media to have any casual sex? And, he did not dream of being a PUA? And, he did not attempt to get the highest notch count ever.
But, in his life of love and relationships, he met a really hot girl or two that was down for something casual. And, he had a really good time. With NO regrets.
What then?
Again, guys are not girls. Unless they are religious, the are unlikely to have hardcore opinions about casual sex. That does not mean they dream of being the next Roissy. But, enjoying a night or two with a pretty girl who is not likely to be Ms Right sounds OK.
Again, I am in no way trying to get you to think one way or the other. If you know exactly what you want, good for you. It sounds Anacoana knew what she wanted and aimed for it, and is, now, pretty happy.
But, I am curious to see what you think if you DON’T force the logic into some sort of, “If he had any casual sex, then, he MUST regret it.”
I see assholes as the enemy. Thats one breed of alpha.
Theres the classic type fo leadership alpha which is entirely discounted. Those guys are genuinely awesome to be around.
@Susan
Those girls who actually had nothing. They come from the same place as those beta guys. The question is, do they want those beta guys?
My guess would be no.
“If alpha is defined as “guy women want to fuck” then looks is most of it. Because those are the guys women throw themselves at for ONSs.”
Bodes well for marriages in general. Seeing as most men are ugly (NAWALT but enough are).
@J
One last attempt.
I get what your saying. I understand it, I’m not an idiot.
It doesn’t matter. Its like trying to convince me fat chicks are hot or slut will make good wives. Its wired into the hind brain.
So, your trying to throw logic at a situation and totally ignoring male emotions. Hence why I don’t blame you.
Men don’t have emotions, at least thats what the lady on the tv says.
I think Herb gave an excellent counter-example earlier so I won’t bother with one of my own.
J – “I would have thought that the news that women can and do move on would have made you guys happy. That’s why I brought it up. Apparently, it didn’t make you happy or you simply don’t believe me, so forget I said it. Chalk it up to the ravings of a middled-age woman and move on. Much of the time, moving on is the only way to win.”
No, I believe your story 100%. But, many women don’t have such a catastrophic ending to their “5 minutes of alpha”, and in fact may very well pine for them. Most of the time, the alpha simply moves on, leaving the women confused, sad, and lonely, all the while she still wants him back. THOSE are the women Lokland and the rest of us are talking about. Your story is the best case scenario, which is to say an alpha really screwed your life up for awhile, and you learned to avoid them. Many women NEVER learn that lesson.
Susan – “It sounds like guys are saying that it’s not the fact that the woman never gets over the AMOG (though I believe that was Lokland’s original point) but that a woman’s having been with an alpha at all is profoundly disturbing/threatening to men. Do men feel the same way if they have intelligence that the woman lost her virginity to the winner of the Science Fair?”
This is closer to the truth for me at least. As a guy with some smarts, no really intelligent men in my SO’s past wouldn’t bother me (she has none however, LOL) because I KNOW I can hold my own against people that really are geniuses. I’ve been around smarter guys than me most of my professional life, but I still kick their ass in the ability to apply my knowledge for practical uses. And, being someone with some intelligence, I’m not intimidated by more of it when I see it.
Now, the issue for me is I am not nor will I ever be pure alpha, and it isn’t something I can compete with. Since I feel so outclassed in that dept, it certainly does bother me that my SO has been with these guys. Sure, she may not value those traits anymore, but if she ever did I might be left holding the bag, so it IS a minor threat on my radar.
Same goes for really handsome guys. I’m not ugly, but I’m no Brad Pitt. If my SO’s past lovers were mostly pretty boys, I would feel VERY intimidated of them regardless of how she tells me she feels about me. Her feelings aren’t the point, it is the fact that she sampled some goods that I can’t reproduce. If she ever wants those good again, it will have to come from a different supplier, and of course that would be a problem.
“Why do you have no empathy for the women who get literally nothing? Why is it their responsibility to go sex up beta men?”
I am going to take a guess at this, because I don’t feel the same way. But, I think many men have little sympathy for such women because they feel that if the women really wanted some attention, all she would have to do is go to any bar and openly profess her desire for it, and she would have more than she wants. Never mind that the attention she would get isn’t the kind she wants, she still has an easier time of getting ANY attention than your average invisible beta dude.
“I would suggest that guys who focus on alpha as enemy are putting their energy in the wrong place. I can’t even imagine the male hamsterwheeling that needs to occur to get those guys into an alpha state themselves, which is what game promises. That sounds like a story that won’t end well”
It may be that the energy is going to the wrong place, but indeed much of it goes right there. To many betaish men, the alpha IS the enemy. Why? Because they grew up being told by young women how great they were, while all the alphas screwed those same women every weekend. Then, they got to hear those same women crying on their shoulder when the alpha moved on. That can make a guy kinda hate alpha’s in general pretty quickly. And, as a member of this group (although I don’t hate anyone, takes too much of my energy), I can tell you this is EXACTLY why game bothers me so much. It is a method to turn myself into something I despise. And yes, it takes some massive mental gymnastics to get past that ugly, nasty, bitter tasting truth.
“If alpha is defined as “guy women want to fuck” then looks is most of it. Because those are the guys women throw themselves at for ONSs.”
Sorry, but I call BS on this one. Some of the most successful PUAs out there are short and bland looking, yet they score big time. So, if it isn’t their looks, what about them makes them appear to be alpha? It’s their attitude, and to me the average PUA has a shitty attitude, that for some reason women can’t get enough of. THAT is what makes alpha “the enemy” for me.
JM – “I’m interested in what other guys think: do others see the “pure alpha” as a sort of enemy or opponent–someone playing for an entirely different team?”
Yep I certainly do. Although, I should clarify that I’m talking about your average asshat alpha, not the John Wayne types, if any of those even exist today…
Ramble – “Again, guys are not girls. Unless they are religious, the are unlikely to have hardcore opinions about casual sex. “
I’m not highly religious, but I have VERY strong opinions on casual sex. If that’s what Charm is looking for, well I don’t consider myself a unicorn. Very odd? Yep. Pretty rare? Probably. But I’m here, and I know a few other guys that are similar, so I guess I’m saying: Not All Men Are Like That.
“You have only to witness the pushback I get here from beta guys re their own beta traits to see this. Whenever I champion or defend a trait considered beta, several guys will express that they’re worried I’m giving hapless beta males the wrong message. I get the same resistance from male commenters when I criticize pure alpha behavior.”
When you push beta traits it comes across as mocking.
When you push alpha traits it comes across like your trying to deny a wet dream actually happened.
“Yep I certainly do. Although, I should clarify that I’m talking about your average asshat alpha, not the John Wayne types, if any of those even exist today…”
Its funny. John Wayne was the same guy I thought of when answering JM describing a good leader.
When you push beta traits it comes across as mocking.
When you push alpha traits it comes across like your trying to deny a wet dream actually happened.
Interesting, it’s a credibility issue. I can only offer my experience as wife and mother to beta guys, and champion of beta traits in the raising of my daughter.
I’m not very familiar with John Wayne, but the idea evokes a guy who uses his “alpha” traits to support the weak and less advantaged… in other words, someone who’s a mix of alpha and beta.
” I don’t know a single woman who longs for the alpha that got away. They tend to leave such a trail of destruction, no one mourns them in the end. It’s like recalling Hurricane Katrina with fondness.”
It is like; what the hell was I thinking? Moreover, I am glad I finally came to my senses. There are no fond memories and longing.
Susan – “Interesting, it’s a credibility issue. I can only offer my experience as wife and mother to beta guys, and champion of beta traits in the raising of my daughter.”
It also doesn’t help that other than Athol, you are the only one I know if in the genre that even suggests beta traits are attractive to women at all. And to be honest, Athol doesn’t suggest they are attractive so much as necessary for long term relationship bliss. Everywhere else guys go, they are told beta is bad and alpha is good. And, just like it’s tough for you to understand the previous lover/number issue, you might have a tough time with this. Men who have been beta most of their lives and had little success simply find it hard to believe that what they have IS indeed attractive, if only presented in a better light. I found it easier at first to believe I was all bad/wrong/broken and needed to be completely rebuilt into something better. Being an older guy that was mostly comfortable with myself, I realized pretty quickly that I like who I was, and only needed to adjust and tweak some things to create that better presentation, but I imagine younger men and/or men that are less comfortable “in their own skin” might simply reject everything they currently are and go for the full on alpha asshat mode. If I had found the red pill prior to getting married, I can’t say I wouldn’t have done it myself. The enticing prospect of “rolling in poon” may have been enough for me to scrap my morals and ethics completely. I’m very glad that didn’t happen, but if it had I wouldn’t have known the difference anyway I suppose.
“I’m not very familiar with John Wayne, but the idea evokes a guy who uses his “alpha” traits to support the weak and less advantaged… in other words, someone who’s a mix of alpha and beta.”
Ya its an actual hero. Not a modern hero (thinking Green lantern here) which is basically a teenager with a six pack but an actual good person who champions the weak.
@Lisa
“It is like; what the hell was I thinking? Moreover, I am glad I finally came to my senses. There are no fond memories and longing.
Where do they [manosphere] get that bullshit?”
Wow you came to your senses? Good for you.
Now just go get the good guy thats been sitting there waiting patiently while you fucked some alpha.
Excuse me while I puke.
The problem is only partially that your over it. The larger problem is that you were there in the first place.
Yes. Personally, I trust in your sincerity or else I wouldn’t bother coming here. But, a woman who has dated or slept with “alphas”, or finds them hot, raves about them, “dishes” about them–loses her credibility in the eyes of a beta guy. The “alpha”–by which I mean the guy dripping alpha traits and not evincing many beta ones–is the enemy.
Ya its an actual hero. Not a modern hero (thinking Green lantern here) which is basically a teenager with a six pack but an actual good person who champions the weak.
Right. To me, that “hero” represents the epitome of the alpha-beta combination.
“Right. To me, that “hero” represents the epitome of the alpha-beta combination.
The trouble is, it wasn’t so long ago that THIS was the alpha ideal. I’d say its only been since the 70′s on that the term alpha morphed to represent the asshats of the male sex. When I rail against alphas, everyone here should now going forward I am referring to ASSHAT MEN ONLY. The “real” leaders, again if there are any/many left, are not alphas in my eyes. They are too good to be given that label.
SW:Do men feel the same way if they have intelligence that the woman lost her virginity to the winner of the Science Fair?
JM:Of course not. But for many guys, the alpha is the enemy.
Yeah, the enemy that many of you guys worship and want to emulate.
Would it make you guys happier to learn my ex-fiance was a grad student in a biological science, had an IQ of about 165 and had published research papers. I doubt recall him ever having won at a science fair, but he was no frat guy, football player. In childhood pictures, he resembles Milhouse from “The Simpsons.”
I’m not criticizing you personally. Sorry if you took it that way. I was just pointing out that it’s not so easy to just move on in many cases. Your case seems to be different. And really, I don’t know most of the details about it, so I can’t comment on it one way or another–and I wasn’t trying to comment on your personal history.
Men who have been beta most of their lives and had little success simply find it hard to believe that what they have IS indeed attractive, if only presented in a better light.
Well that’s a shame for those men, because very few will be able to fully transition to alpha asshat, and like it. Most people aren’t cut out to be narcissistic sociopaths, red pill or not.
But, a woman who has dated or slept with “alphas”, or finds them hot, raves about them, “dishes” about them–loses her credibility in the eyes of a beta guy.
High SMV women are likely to have been pursued by alpha males. They may have all been evil cads, or maybe not. Some of those women have dated alphas, and liked it.
IDK, refusing to accept that reality is to suggest that women find beta traits equally desirable and attractive up front, even in the absence of any alphaness. And we know that’s just not true. Pure dominant alphas will get more women than pure supplicating betas. I feel foolish even stating the obvious. There is a baseline level of dominance that a male must have to spark female attraction.
I have to say I’m feeling frustrated with the alpha/beta dichotomy here, it doesn’t work. Let’s discuss specific traits if you want to continue talking about this.
Wow you came to your senses? Good for you.
Now just go get the good guy thats been sitting there waiting patiently while you fucked some alpha.
Excuse me while I puke.
Lokland,
Sorry, I did not intend to make you sick with my comment. However, it is not my or any other woman’s fault that the “good guys” decided to just sit and wait. No one is stopping them from going for the women they desire–other than themselves–period.
Right. To me, that “hero” represents the epitome of the alpha-beta combination.
Yes, a hero does. His nemesis is a powerful and dominant male who is evil. Every superhero story stars these two characters. There’s a reason we say Dark and Light, Sith and Jedi. Many of the popular Game bloggers represent and promote the latter. Only the innate goodness of some males prevents them from being completely corrupted. I’m thankful for that at least.
In SMP terms, “alpha” is for men what looks are for women: traits that trigger visceral reaction regardless of the attractee’s character, education, and concious thoughts.
No one would advise a man to marry a woman simply because she is beautiful, ignoring everything else. And we would all agree that any man who did so would be an idiot. And would probable end up miserable. However, neither would most of us advise a man to marry a woman “perfect” in every respect but whom he found ugly or plain. Both parties are going to end up unhappy.
Sensible women need to learn to see alpha the same way. Accept that it will always be a visceral attraction trigger. Don’t marry based on that alone. But also don’t marry someone you believe lacks those traits entirely, even if in every other respect your brain tells you that he is “perfect for you.”
But also don’t marry someone you believe lacks those traits entirely, even if in every other respect your brain tells you that he is “perfect for you.”
I have to say I’m feeling frustrated with the alpha/beta dichotomy here, it doesn’t work. Let’s discuss specific traits if you want to continue talking about this.
Okay, this:
Alpha: Dominant guy, leader in school/career, in possession of resources, athlete or at least one of those “amazing” athletic bodies, dripping in confidence and finesse, has multiple opportunities romantic and otherwise.
On the other hand, though he’s not evil, he’s not very concerned with others, whether with their happiness or their suffering (except as it relates to him). His only true interests are those which relate to him and his status–in other words he doesn’t find the world beyond his own needs and desires very engaging. His primary interest is himself–and his success.
I know you’ve moved on but I just want to say that it’s this notion of imprinting that is the real canard.
And that’s just it. If a guy tells me that he has an emotional need to be the first, I can accept that. If he tells me that he has to feel that way because of something the three Ro’s have deluded him into thinking that I feel, then I have to call BS.
Also, I cosign your remarks regarding the large number of girls who sit on the shelf in college. I was not a social-social kind of gal, but rather I was introverted, highly motivated to do well in school, and very intellectual. That scared a lot of guys away, which hurt and discouraged me until I realized that I needed to demonstrate warmth and to actively pursue a particular demographic as opposed to just waiting to be noticed by Mr. Right
“High SMV women are likely to have been pursued by alpha males. They may have all been evil cads, or maybe not. Some of those women have dated alphas, and liked it.”
Yes. I also like sluts. Big fan, make my penis feel good.
I don’t expect everyone else to cheer and be happy for me nor accept my decision.
Also, there is a dichotomy where men will screw the HB10 but date and marry the HB6-7. Reasons become readily apparent when you present it in this light.
Also, beta is desirable. Alpha is attractive.
Much like women, hot is hot. Feminine is desirable.
Being extremely feminine but looking like a troll won’t work.
Beta is the male version of looking like a troll with a heart of gold.
Both are essential for long term.
However, when your telling the troll with a heart of gold that you want what he is not and then expecting him to somehow want to marry you is beyond me.
@Lisa
“No one is stopping them from going for the women they desire–other than themselves–period.”
Or the women who continually say no. But yeah other than that I’ll agree a large portion is in their head.
“However, it is not my or any other woman’s fault that the ‘good guys’ decided to just sit and wait. No one is stopping them from going for the women they desire–other than themselves–period.”
Sorry, it is at least partially woman-kind’s fault. If women didn’t mercilessly mock betas, indulge in “nuclear rejections,” overestimate their SMV and short the SMV of various betas, and otherwise make approaching so nervewracking for non-alphas, then maybe more betas might approach.
Beyond this, it is the nature of betas to be more reticent. So your statement amounts to “It’s not our fault that betas are not alphas, no one is stopping them from being alpha.” Well, no one but their innate natures and personalities. The mission of the game bloggers is to take those betas who want to become alphas and help them do it. I gather you welcome that?
Woman, no relationship, make out.
Men, no relationship, no make out.
Woman, no relationship, make out=being used. I think in today’s SMP, it appears to young women that choice is between being lonely and being used. That’s why we have so many loony girls getting so drunk. They need to convince themselves that they are having a great time being used.
And trying to tell the guy who never got to use anybody that you realized you didn’t like being used is the same as slapping him in the face, kicking him in the nuts and then pissing on him.
I am about through my second read of the much-maligned “I Am Charlotte Simmons.” This book is now eight years old. I wonder how much the SMP has changed, if at all.
Anyway, if Wolfe is right, then it’s wrong to say that these girls are being used, at least in the sense that they don’t know what they are doing. Charlotte herself is the rare/unique case (in the book). All the other girls plunge in head-first, willingly, enthusiastically.
It doesn’t matter. Its like trying to convince me fat chicks are hot or slut will make good wives. Its wired into the hind brain.
OK, I’m fine with that. I’m really not trying to discount your feelings. My problem is the ‘sphere’s trying to convince me that I feel things that I simply don’t feel. It’s not you personally.
I get the frustration of beta guys. I really do. I also get a little impatient with them at times. However, my frustration is not that I want them to be alphas per se. I just want them to get out of their own heads and take more risks when it comes to pursuing women. I just don’t think it is necessary for them to morph themselves into alphas or whatever in order to do so. That’s all.
That’s not how hooking up works, JM. What happens is the girl goes to a party, gets really tipsy, chats with friends and this cute (beta/alpha, take your pick) guy, makes out with him, gives him her number, and then never hears from him again. THAT is being used.
I wonder if even alpha males care whether or not a woman they date has dated other alpha males.
My guess is that guys who are high in alpha traits and low in beta ones will care very little about either your thoughts or history–unless one of them affects your (and, as a result, his) reputation.
Susan – “Well that’s a shame for those men, because very few will be able to fully transition to alpha asshat, and like it. Most people aren’t cut out to be narcissistic sociopaths, red pill or not.”
You are preaching to the choir if that comment is directed at me. I fully agree that most men are NOT cut out for full on alphadom, but it sure as hell looks better than where they currently are. Couple that with a generation of guys with far less moral baggage, and you have a possible mess. And I think it is a male tendency to want to completely destroy the old and build the new on its crumbled remains. For me, it would have been far easier to simply give up on my entire outlook regarding relationships and women, and just jump full into “game”. However I know that *I* would have been miserable in short time, whether I was successful or not. And as much as I complain of the difficulty, being in a LTR at the time certainly played a huge role in my decision to make minor changes instead of a full on rebuild. JM’s venture into casual encounters turned out similarly, but without actually knowing his age, I would say that he as a very good grasp of his own motivations and hangups, so it was easy for him to clearly see that it wasn’t his way. Again, most people simply are NOT introspective enough to figure it out, and even if they would be miserable on the casual carousel, at least it is misery with lots of sex, which is by far better than misery without. As long as you don’t have that nagging morality to worry about…
Escoffier, don’t paint women with that blanket generalization about “nuclear rejections” and shit. That’s bullshit fabricated by the manosphere tomake women a scapegoat for their own shortcomings.
JM–Sorry if I came off as offended. I didn’t think you were dealing with me personally and I didn’t mean to impy that you personally hero-worship alphas. I just wanted to comment in general about the irony of “betas” both hating and wanting to be “alphas.”
That’s not how hooking up works, JM. What happens is the girl goes to a party, gets really tipsy, chats with friends and this cute (beta/alpha, take your pick) guy, makes out with him, gives him her number, and then never hears from him again. THAT is being used.
No, that is playing a particular “game”, and not liking the outcome.
Think of it another way.
Some girl, over the course of, say, 3 years, makes out with 12 guys, giving (or being asked for) her number to 8 of them, 5 calling her, 3 seeming cool and 1 great relationship.
Was she used by the 3 that did not call?
Did she use the 4 she did not give her number to?
What about getting their numbers and calling them?
What about the guys that she dated but did not suck/fuck? Were they used?
It is a game. Not all outcomes are pleasing to all players.
****I’m interested in what other guys think****: do others see the “pure alpha” as a sort of
enemy or opponent–someone playing for an entirely different team?
Jesus, you are usually the first to question the entire notion of alpha vs beta, so I’m really not sure what you mean by “pure alpha”. I think it is useful to talk of alpha vs beta traits and behaviors, but I’m not sure how to tell the difference between a “pure alpha” and a guy who is 97.314159% alpha and a guy who is 88.756748943% alpha.
If you asked me this question in high school, I would have probably answered yes, they are my enemies and opponents, but even then I can recall 2 specific guys who were most definitely alpha (big-time jocks and super popular with the top girls), but cool guys in that they didn’t seem to partake in making fun of nerds/unpopular guys (which I was in high school).
There is that video of the Australian guy who threw the big bash being interviewed on TV (Cory I think is his name). Do I think he is an asshole? Yes. Do I think he is an idiot? Yes. Do I think he is my enemy? No.
Just my personal experience, but I’ve had two separate positive experiences with guys who were very alpha. The first was a group of guys I met right out of college at the gym as I was trying to remake my physical appearance. They were cool to me, and made me part of their group. The second experience was with the head bouncer when I started that job soon after my divorce. For whatever reason, he took an interest in me and getting me back on my feet in the game. I was often scheduled with him as part of a 2 man crew on weeknights (I think the manager thought I needed to work with a big-time hard ass) so we would have alot of time to get in conversations, and he would coach me on stuff. I remember the first time I got laid after the divorce, he seemed like a proud father. So it is hard for me to view guys who are very alpha as my enemies or opponents. That said, these guys definitely had some “asshole” qualities about them, and I heard some stories about stuff that definitely crossed some moral boundaries in my mind.
In contrast, based on what you’ve shared here, it sounds like you had a nightmarish, horrific experience with an “alpha” with your brother who sounds like a sociopath based on the incidents you’ve described. Based on that personal experience, it makes sense to me you would see “alphas” as the enemy and find repulsive any attraction to a guy who demonstrated those behaviors.
Sassy – “I wonder if even alpha males care whether or not a woman they date has dated other alpha males.”
Nope. They all believe they are God’s gift to you, so your previous lovers are irrelevant.
J – “Your story is the best case scenario, which is to say an alpha really screwed your life up for awhile, and you learned to avoid them.
LOL. Best case for whom? I cut off my hair off and quit dating for two years, so great was my distrust in my ability to pick out good men.
Many women NEVER learn that lesson.
As someone who has compared notes with many women, I’d beg to differ with that. I don’t know many who DON’T have a story like mine.”
First off, best case for you. It may have caused you a few years of misery, but you learned.
Those women you compared notes with where what age? I’m basing much of my opinion off of my 18yo daughter’s friends here. Those girls aren’t learning this lesson, despite being screwed over by asshats repeatedly. Hell one of them just told my daughter she is pregnant to some 25yo thug from the “hood”. She just turned 18 last summer, and now has to face life as a single mother. She is cute, smart, and I had hoped immune to assholean behavior. Alas she has proven that she is not.
And last, my apologies if I came across as harsh. I am only basing my comments on the information you provided. I certainly didn’t intend to minimize any emotional trauma caused by some asshole in your life. But all things considered, I still stand by my statement that you were smart enough to figure it out.
JM, that’s the general script that puts women at a huge disadvantage. If she doesn’t even make out with the guy, she’s communicating disinterest *according to the rules of this SMP*. Maybe an AMOG can claim to not follow and make his own rules, but alpha and beta women alike don’t have that luxury.
Yeah that’s the sad fact, isn’t it. People don’t know the difference between freedom and having nothing of importance.
One of my acquaintances in Facebook just broke up her 19 years old marriage to find herself (she is still friends with her husband and talks good things about him so this was obviously an EPL case, IMO) and is filling her page almost every hour with this absurd quotes about freedom and happiness and other feel good masturbation quotes. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad. I pity her girls they seem to be really nice but they already have a strong message about how much a marriage should last: till you feel like it.
That’s bullshit fabricated by the manosphere tomake women a scapegoat for their own shortcomings.
Whoa.
SayWhat, I can often agree with much of what you say, but, here, I think that you are off base.
I am sure that the sphere exaggerates the percentage of approached end in “nuclear” rejections, but…
Really Bad Rejections are a very real thing.
Girls crowding together and laughing at some poor schmuck is very real.
Referring to any guy that does not know what he is doing as creepy is very real.
Having an education system absolutely favor one sex over another, to feed those students into a workplace with openly sexist (in favor of girls) hiring practices, and then have those girls make fun of guys for living in his mothers proverbial basement (while, they, themselves, are ACTUALLY living at home with their parents) is downright fucked up.
Ted, 18yo is still very young. They are making mistakes and are in the process of learning from them. You can’t fault them for stumbling when they’re young. If they were 30, that would be a different story.
Telling guys who came of age and formed their identities at a time when they had little status and resources–or amazing bodies to compensate–that they’ll have their day 5 or so years after college isn’t going to work. It’s true, but those men don’t want to be loved for their status. They’ve learned to value themselves for different things–they had to. The idea that women are going to start liking them for the status they’ll achieve later on in life doesn’t sit right with a lot of men.
Not to mention it may not be true.
If I wanted to claim the biggest lie my parents told me as I was the “outsider” and “loser” in HS was that my day would come.
Some of us are just not built in ways we’ll ever fit in and be overly wanted. If we were told that from the beginning we’d probably be less bitter in the end.
saywhaat, of couse NAWALT, etc., but 1) Betas are already naturally reticent so it’s not reasonable to expect them to be approaching all the time even if the risks were low and 2) That stuff does happen and it gets around, which only increases their reticence.
And another thing, alphas get their fair share of rejection as well. You cannot go up to women you do not know and say, “Hey baby, you have a nice ass” or some other obnoxious rude thing and expect that they are going to fall all over you.
Mike C,
The best example of the example you gave was the Vince Vaughan character in Swingers.
Guys love to see “good” guys succeed.
One great example of how this might play out is when the younger “beta” starts getting depressive, or down on himself, and the “alpha” with, both, love and tough-love, tells him to Shut The Fuck Up.
Smacks him out of his bullshit depressive musings and “wakes” him up to what can be a great reality.
You cannot go up to women you do not know and say, “Hey baby, you have a nice ass” or some other obnoxious rude thing and expect that they are going to fall all over you.
This is almost exactly what Arnold Schwarzenegger said to Maria Shriver’s mother (a well known liberal).
SW – “Ted, 18yo is still very young. They are making mistakes and are in the process of learning from them. You can’t fault them for stumbling when they’re young. If they were 30, that would be a different story.”
OH I agree, but it seems that they are starting to get ‘sexual’ younger, so if they don’t figure it out by the time they GO TO college, it looks like they can get into a lot of trouble. And, when I say that they have been getting screwed over by asshats, I mean since like 9th grade. The unfortunate effect of all this early sexual activity is: there is NO room for “young and naive” anymore. Of course, as I said elsewhere, I imagine much of what I see is directly related to the SES of the area I live in, where there are far more poorer people than middle/upper-class. When I say the “hood”, I actually mean an area of town where people regularly get shot/mugged/raped/beaten/etc. I don’t live there, but those areas aren’t too far away, and these guys LOVE to troll the “softer” school districts looking for young girls that are easily impressed into bed, that they can avoid easily afterwards.
It breaks my heart that this young woman has completely derailed her plans to go to nursing school, and is now looking at how to apply for assistance, since her parents kicked her out for getting “knocked up”. Great world we live in…
Okay, Ramble, how is playing the game and not liking the outcome any different from guys NOT playing the game due to their own insecurities and then resenting women and other men for it?
Re: nuclear rejections, it’s your anecdotal experience vs mine. And IME, most women want to avoid causing any kind of scene whatsoever.
Some of us are just not built in ways we’ll ever fit in and be overly wanted. If we were told that from the beginning we’d probably be less bitter in the end.
Herb, could you imagine telling some 18 yo girl that, even if she lost those 15 lbs, she is still not likely to be all that pretty?
JM, that’s the general script that puts women at a huge disadvantage. If she doesn’t even make out with the guy, she’s communicating disinterest *according to the rules of this SMP*. Maybe an AMOG can claim to not follow and make his own rules, but alpha and beta women alike don’t have that luxury.
Sure, but the current script generally puts decent guys at a disadvantage as well, because if they don’t convey a good deal of “alpha” behavior, if they don’t escalate immediately, for example, and hint at a bit of arrogance, or display a lot of pre-selection, they get nowhere. The hook up script only validates “alpha” displays of interest. You can’t give a pass to the women and not the men.
I’m not going to have a fruitless argument with you regarding who gets hurt more in this SMP. All I’m going to say is that sometimes the smartest thing is to let go, cut your losses, shower off the piss and move on.
That’s not my attempt to trump you in a debate. It’s just my attempt to give you some helpful advice. You can’t get whatever it is (a blanket apology from all women on the behalf of those who provided previous bad experiences?) that you are looking for. Sadly, it doesn’t exist.
I could push you to apologize on the behalf of all men for my ex; I could apologize for your previous bad experiences–but, in the end, we’d both have exactly nothing. The best thing I ever did for myself was to shrug it off, learn to be a better picker and go out and build a life for myself. Living well really is the best revenge.
Okay, Ramble, how is playing the game and not liking the outcome any different from guys NOT playing the game due to their own insecurities and then resenting women and other men for it?
You are taking two different issues and attempting to relate them.
I am saying that your definition of “used” was wrong. They were not used, they simply did not like the outcome of a game they were playing.
Whether or not that is analogous to guys getting humiliated upon rejection is another issue.
Re: nuclear rejections, it’s your anecdotal experience vs mine. And IME, most women want to avoid causing any kind of scene whatsoever.
Whoa, again. I listed out more things than just the Nuclear rejections, which I stipulated is probably exaggerated in the ‘Sphere.
It sounds Anacoana knew what she wanted and aimed for it, and is, now, pretty happy.
Thanks I am I will like to add that aside from a natural repulsion to asshole’s behaviour I do have a lot of insight on casual sex and men at least Dominican men.
I was friends with many of this guys and they spent quite some time making clear that all the girls that opened their legs to them without asking any commitment in return upfront were considered low lives by them. The sense I got is that they though the world of me (and they did God knows why I was pretty harsh with them when the theme of their sexcapades came around) was because I wasn’t fucking them. So the idea that is just a good time with no implications whatsoever, sorry I don’t buy that, never seen it even with the guys that got a really hottie and try to make it more there was this contempt in their treatment of them and eventually something broke them of.
Another thing is that my little brother hated sluts as much as I hated manwhores and he never actually even sexed them up no matter how much they threw themselves at him and I was there because we used to work together, so I realized that a man can lose respect for a woman and not want to get his dick wet on her at the same time. It was a good thing because many of my male friends told me that a man can’t help it. Manosphere guys seem to preach the same concept of I wanted her but now that she showed slut tells I will just bang her for a few times and leave her ASAP and this might be the majority but really I don’t want a man that has such idea about sex. If men hate the Alpha in their women’s past some women can hate the sluts in their man past too.
I also had a couple of friends that got disappointed on their wives when they asked or performed sexual acts some sluts did in their marriages, they automatically bumped them in the slut ladder even if they were virgin when they meet and from them on the relationship just went downhill to actively cheating and divorce.
So there is always the fear that if he has a strong laddering complex one day you are going to be too slutty for him not to make assumptions about what kind of woman you would had been if he would had come into your life later and from them then on you are screwed up.
Again all this are my observations and insight I know that Dominican men are fucked up in the head but I really do think manosphere don’t has a lot of samples of men swimming in punani, given the circumstances to see the long term repercussions of indulging on their variety instinct I did and it ain’t prettier than when women are unleashed sexually. Sex is a powerful instinct in our species and it can be more destructive than many people realize, YMMV.
It sounds as if the thing that bonded you to those men was not their alpha behavior, but their beta behavior: they took you under their wings. In other aspects of their lives, they may have been ultra-alpha, but in terms of your relationships with them, it sounds as if there was a good deal of beta stuff going on.
Escoffier, was the manosphere the first place that introduced you to the term “nuclear rejection”? It’s an overblown meme, and it is not the fault of other women if men are afraid to approach. I will certainly (and I have) made it easy for people to approach me, but refusing to approach is your own damn fault. I say this as a woman who has been approached and has also done her fair share of initiating. The latter only serves to place me on an accelerated sexual timeline, which I did not want.
No offense taken, Ted, though I appreciate your consideration for my feelings.
My “data” comes from a lifetime of listening to other women’s stories. Probably most have been my age, but I’m the neighborhood “hip mom.” My friends’ college age daughters like to talk to me. Most women do learn from bad experiences. In all age groups, there tend to be a few diehards who insist on neurotically making the same mistakes over and over again. The older ones seem to be conscious of what they are doing, but powerless to stop–that’s sort of the defining trait of a neurotic though.
“It’s just my attempt to give you some helpful advice.”
Don’t need it.
“You can’t get whatever it is (a blanket apology from all women on the behalf of those who provided previous bad experiences?) that you are looking for. Sadly, it doesn’t exist. ”
Don’t need it. I’ve never had a bad experience wrt relationships (excluding a period of lonliness in high scool).
I only care about the men don’t have emotions meme and its implications for the SMP.
The term, yes, but the reality, no. I was only personally blown out a couple of times because I hated approaching and almost never did it but I witnessed it or had it described to me many times.
And now we have the Internet in which some poor sap’s humiliation need not end where it starts but is memorialized for all time by girls who think it’s cute to tell the story online. Didn’t have to face that in my youth, thank God.
The sense I got is that they though the world of me (and they did God knows why I was pretty harsh with them when the theme of their sexcapades came around) was because I wasn’t fucking them.
Same goes for really handsome guys. I’m not ugly, but I’m no Brad Pitt. If my SO’s past lovers were mostly pretty boys, I would feel VERY intimidated of them regardless of how
she tells me she feels about me. Her feelings aren’t the point, it is the fact that she sampled some goods that I can’t reproduce. If she ever wants those good again, it will
have to come from a different supplier, and of course that would be a problem.
Ted,
This gets to the concept of revealed preference. I’m hesitant to bring up any of the personal examples discussed in this thread, as it becomes impossible to discuss it academically without the person being personally attacked, but I think it is important to observe what a person has done rather than what they say. I do think it is one thing for a woman to have had say 1 or even 2 relationships with a certain type of guy, realize that “type” isn’t for her, and go for a totally different type of guy. It is quite another if she has had multiple relationships and/or hookups with one type and than switches to another. Then you’ve got to question what is motivating the switch as you point out.
JM, I would argue that’s another pretty red lie fed to men by the manosphere. I never needed aggressive escalation, arrogance, etc. All in one go before I made up my mind about a guy. The current script is not putting decent guys at a disadvantage. If they put just one foot in the game they would be free to ignore texts from any girl they chose to make out with.
I am going to take a guess at this, because I don’t feel the same way. But, I think many men have little sympathy for such women because they feel that if the women really wanted some attention, all she would have to do is go to any bar and openly profess her desire for it, and she would have more than she wants. Never mind that the attention she would get isn’t the kind she wants, she still has an easier time of getting ANY attention than your average invisible beta dude.
This…
Or, perhaps a better way to put it.
We have a fat guy and a fat chick.
We’re happy to tell the fat guy he needs to get in shape to get attention so the fact he isn’t is his fault.
We tell the fat chick it’s men’s fault for not being willing to see past the fat to their personality.
Hell, I’ve seen that dichotomy in what my sister has told me versus female friends much heavier than me (and unlike me, they didn’t train for and do a 500m/5k aquathon with her).
It has less to do with the fact those women go no more attention than we did than the fact they’re told they were wronged and we’re told it’s our fault.
Did those girls approach men and get shot down? We did.
Did those girls spend money on dates that went no where? We did.
You say you miss Badger Susan. Perhaps you should go back to one of his best writings, on the approach cost disparity between men and women. I think that’s what drives a lot of the disdain beta men have for “beta” girls. They suffered the same fate as us but we had to pay upfront for the privilege.
For the long discussion of fear of the alpha. I think most of the women forget most men know at least one guy like me that thought they found a woman who wanted them but once that woman thought she could pull alpha the beta husband got abandoned.
See that enough and you grow that fear. Ask any shrink: paranoia is a learned behavior.
I hate to see a longterm marriage break-up. You say they are still friends. Did the husband want to break up as well?
DH and I are friends with a couple who broke up after 22 years. DH still plays music with the husband as do all our sons. I still see the wife. She has a new bf. Her ex dates around. Everyone appears deliriously except DH and I who are pissed about the break up. They let us down.
I just want them to get out of their own heads and take more risks when it comes to pursuing women. I just don’t think it is necessary for them to morph themselves into alphas or whatever in order to do so. That’s all.
At what point can they say they’ve taken enough risk.
Not one interested woman out of 23 at speed dating.
Over 100 emails on OkCupid, Match.com, and eHarmony with just two responses (and not spam, but emails, over 20 written with a paid dating coach), only one lead to a date, and she was married in an open relationship (so, sure, nudge and tickle but LTR isn’t there).
Multiple nights as the wingman.
Divorce because she could get better.
Sure, those are my personal example, but all but the last are pretty representative of what beta guys go through before they give up. You don’t start shelling out $1000+ to Vince Lin or Mystery for a weekend seminar because you were lonely. You do it because you feel like a rejected loser and rejection requires you having taken a shot to begin with.
(btw, your avatar isn’t helping you make any argument to beta guys)
Herb, could you imagine telling some 18 yo girl that, even if she lost those 15 lbs, she is still not likely to be all that pretty?
Yes…in fact, I’m prepared to tell my nephew and my neicphew that if and when the time comes.
If someone had told me in 5th grade that you could either start liking sports and TV and all that and be accepted or continue to be a loser now and always will be I would have had the choice to change.
Instead I got told to be myself and one day you’ll find people like you and have the friends and popularity everyone else has. So I kept being myself instead of changing myself.
Now I’m 45 and know better. I think it’s a sin let kids learn that too late for them to make a choice.
Do people really fear the alpha? I don’t like to hear that. The only thing that gives the alpha his power is the fear, respect, admiration, and attraction that people have for him.
That’s the point, JM! There’s no requirement. But if she makes out with that cute guy who is awkwardly standing near the wall because she thinks he’s cute and has interesting things to say, and ends up getting dumped for not letting him escalate all the way, or worse, escalating because she has feelings and goes into “gf mode” around him, only to get dumped regardless of which scenario she chose to pursue…that is being used.
On the other hand, though he’s not evil, he’s not very concerned with others, whether with their happiness or their suffering (except as it relates to him). His only true interests are those which relate to him and his status–in other words he doesn’t find the world beyond his own needs and desires very engaging. His primary interest is himself–and his success.
Unfortunately, I think you have just described the majority of people.
I think it’s fair and reasonable to judge someone based on the company they kept in the past or their past behavior. Did they choose to date an asshole? Why? Were they in the habit of hooking up with sluts? Why? I think that’s much more important than whether an ex was good looking, or had an amazing body, or even if they were confident, a proxy for dominance. I’d rather my partner have a relationship history with a beautiful woman of good character than with a trashy, slutty type who cheated repeatedly on him. And the reason I would care is because it tells me something about his character.
All the other girls plunge in head-first, willingly, enthusiastically.
As I recall, doesn’t he focus on the Greek scene? There’s the sorority chicks, and there’s her roommate Beverly, who wants to be a sorority chick. Wolfe is only describing that portion of the student body (20%) that’s doing all the hooking up. Charlotte is indeed an outlier in the book, but I believe her story occurs regularly in a less dramatic form. For example, many freshmen girls don’t know that going away for a frat weekend formal implies tacit agreement to have sex.
Lokland, no one goes to those parties intending to hook up. They go to have a good time with friends, and to be open to the opportunity that someone cute that they haven’t met before will be there.
Yes…in fact, I’m prepared to tell my nephew and my neicphew that if and when the time comes.
Herb, why would you tell your niece that she is ugly?
Again, we are talking about a girl (in my original example) who is NOT fat. (And, even if she were overweight, I am not sure it is the place of the uncle to tell her that). There is not much she can do about, say, an asymmetrical face and an unattractive body shape.
And now we have the Internet in which some poor sap’s humiliation need not end where it starts but is memorialized for all time by girls who think it’s cute to tell the story online.
And you don’t think guys do this? Did you ever read Roosh’s story about rawdogging another blogger (by name) on a bus in DC? Not to mention the field reports that regularly pop up on all these PUA sites. And the white board in every frat house with a chart listing sex acts on one axis and all the girls they know on the other. Or – here’s a good one – the 80% of amateur sex video that pops up online without the woman’s knowledge?
Unfortunately, I think you have just described the majority of people.
That’s sad. That would mean that by my standards, the majority of people aren’t relationship material. And if that represents the majority, then you have to figure that a decent amount of the remaining minority would have had LTRs with at least some of those people. So, yea, I guess most people aren’t relationship material by my standards.
I think it’s fair and reasonable to judge someone based on the company they kept in the past or their past behavior.
Me too.
Did they choose to date an asshole? Why? Were they in the habit of hooking up with sluts? Why? I think that’s much more important than whether an ex was good looking, or had an amazing body, or even if they were confident, a proxy for dominance.
True, I’m sure there are some good looking people with natural confidence and amazing bodies who have good character, some depth, etc… Yet, I think such people are sighted about as often as the chupacabra.
Susan, the frat scene is part of the focus but not the whole focus. There are also the basketball and lacrosse groupies. Presumably the other athletes have groupies but they are not depicted. Then you have the general run of freshmen who seem mostly into the scene. Then you have lots of other girls who want to be part of the scene but can’t generate male interest. “The trolls” and “the Lounge Committee”, remember them? When one of the latter (Charlotte) generates interest from a hot guy they all become insanely envious.
Overall, Wolfe depicts a lot of “feral females” (I believe that was Dalrock’s term). Girls on the hunt. E.g., the way he describes the main library. Now, this may well be overdrawn. I hope it is.
Anyway, what he describes goes well beyond the Greek scene though the frats were the epicenter.
Herb, why would you tell your niece that she is ugly?
Again, we are talking about a girl (in my original example) who is NOT fat. (And, even if she were overweight, I am not sure it is the place of the uncle to tell her that). There is not much she can do about, say, an asymmetrical face and an unattractive body shape.
“Honey, I love you but no matter what you do men are going to see you as a 4 at best. You can have a perfect personalty but the odds of a man approaching you are pretty much zero. You are better off preparing for a life alone than believing that one day the guy who sees the real you and doesn’t care about your looks will come along. Even if he does exist there are more girls like you than guys like me so the odds are against you.”
As if it is my place as her uncle, is it worse for me to step out of place than to let her pine away believing in Santa year after year despite no presents under the tree?
I get what you are saying. In my last comment, I gave an example of how alpha male, asshole or whatever, who approach women randomly. Men like these on many occasions have approached me and what most of them have in common is that they do not give a shit about the outcome. If I go for it fine or if I don’t fine, so what, he will just move on to another chick and just keep doing the same thing until he gets a taker. And yeah, sometimes the women are rude when rejecting them. But, to most of them, it is just a numbers game. Most of them did not attend PUA seminars, boot camps, or whatever. They don’t think they just act therefore, they don’t have time to contemplate whether or not a woman is going to reject them.
The more you approach the easier it becomes and it helps to detach yourself from the outcome. Moreover, if a woman is rude when rejecting you, so what, she doesn’t know you personally and you’re in a social atmosphere (bar, club and so on) where that is happening to others guys because that is what happens in those places all night.
I also want to add that you don’t have to become some rude obnoxious guy when approaching women. Like I said, it is a numbers game; the more you it the more it becomes just like breathing.
This is just my view of the situation.
So, you see my avatar as a contradiction. LOL! How do you know he is not a beta male or a good guy? His being good-looking automatically makes him an alpha?
And you don’t think guys do this? Did you ever read Roosh’s story about rawdogging another blogger (by name) on a bus in DC? Not to mention the field reports that regularly pop up on all these PUA sites. And the white board in every frat house with a chart listing sex acts on one axis and all the girls they know on the other. Or – here’s a good one – the 80% of amateur sex video that pops up online without the woman’s knowledge?
re: Fratboys
Susan,
You had some experience with frats and frat boys when you were in school, did you see that kind of stuff back then. I knew quite a few guys in frats, and some of them were real dicks, but, shit, I never saw anything like that.
Susan, no, I didn’t know about any of that. Though I will say (gingerly) that for a girl to get to that point where a guy can make something like that public (which I agree, is pretty low), she must first have willingly engaged in something rather sordid herself. Whereas a mere approach is nothing of the sort. Moreover, we have here some women complaining that men don’t approach more. I don’t see men here complaining that women don’t accede to sex tapes more.
The point is, there is something anti-tautological about complaining that betas don’t approach more. If they approached more, they wouldn’t be betas, or if they weren’t betas, they would approach more. Further, the “remedy” to the extent that one exists is for betas to learn game and transform themselves (to the extent possible) into alphas. Is that really what Liz wants? Sounds like she wants betas to remain betas (I guess because she doesn’t want the risk or the drama of an alpha) but become confident and approach her without any trepidation because overt betatuide is unattracive. I.e., have cake + eat it.
I should add that if a woman’s dated men like that in the past, but changed since, then I could overlook it, but dishing about how hot a guy like that is would make my blood run cold. She’d be attracted to the enemy as far as I’m concerned.
The more you approach the easier it becomes and it helps to detach yourself from the outcome. Moreover, if a woman is rude when rejecting you, so what, she doesn’t know you personally and you’re in a social atmosphere (bar, club and so on) where that is happening to others guys because that is what happens in those places all night.
I also want to add that you don’t have to become some rude obnoxious guy when approaching women. Like I said, it is a numbers game; the more you it the more it becomes just like breathing.
Or he eventually decides to quit engaging in a sunk cost fallacy. At some point he’ll conclude it’s not worth playing.
And women on this thread are blaming him then telling him to pity the girl who go no attention not because she went through what she did but because she never got in the game.
That’s my problem. Want to tell men to man up and try one more time (after all, it’s only rejection) yet say “poor baby” about the girls who, as Susan put it “She’s the beta female – going to classes, has some girlfriends from the dorm, is mostly invisible to guys, or at least feels that way. Never gets singled out or invited out by the opposite sex. ”
Why isn’t she asked why she never approached men? Why is her being invisible the fault of the beta guys who were at least out trying and thus somehow at fault for not getting attention.
@Susan re: wanting the low ground
Because maybe if women got that they could understand why at 30 we don’t want girls who couldn’t be bothered to even come out at 21 saying they always wanted us.
Really, you did…could have fooled me.
It just seems like more feminist bs: lonely men are at fault for not being desirable to women they did approach and they’re also at fault for women who are lonely even though the women never got out there.
Then again, between the fact that everything the manosphere says about women is, according to female commentators, untrue we actually didn’t get rejected, our beta traits are more desirable than alpha traits, and apparently had tons of female attention and just now have Ros provided false consciousness.
Lokland and Ted are right…women say men have no feelings or emotions so it must be true.
And you don’t think guys do this? Did you ever read Roosh’s story about rawdogging another blogger (by name) on a bus in DC? Not to mention the field reports that regularly pop up on all these PUA sites. And the white board in every frat house with a chart listing sex acts on one axis and all the girls they know on the other. Or – here’s a good one – the 80% of amateur sex video that pops up online without the woman’s knowledge?
So
1. Men do it to other men, so men can’t be hurt by it
2. Men do it to women, so men can’t be hurt by it.
Are you willing to tell me the women that happens to aren’t hurt by it?
The hookup scene generally is focused on Greeks and athletes. The women are usually comprised of groupies and sorority girls. In the years since I have read CS, I have been convinced that it is representative of those subcultures within universities. Duke did its own internal study and concluded that only 10% of its student body was actively and regularly participating in hookup culture.
The description is not overdrawn, but one should not extrapolate to the whole student body.
For the love of God don’t say that to your niece. It’s not your place to tell her there’s no Santa, and besides, maybe a male 4 will come along and snap her up.
Its our fault they can’t get a date, its our fault we can’t get a date, its our fault they had sex with a random stranger, if its us we’re a cad, if its not we’re an ass for not sweeping her off her feet before it happened.
Essentially, you gooo grl and your penis makes you subhuman.
Ohh Lisa, I have an actual written record of what nears 2000 approaches over 4-5 years. Your right, uber effective. Not so good for the emotions.
No, I never saw anything like that. I think there’s been a large deterioration in college culture in the 30+ years since I went. In fact, back in the late 70s we still had assortative mating, and people paired off pretty efficiently without much fuss. ONSs were something we heard about in novels, but never indulged in ourselves. Being a slut back then made on a social pariah. I recall one sorority had a reputation for being slutty, and that was for having a large number of girls who had sex at all, even in relationships. I was in a relationship 9 months before having sex.
Susan, the specific part that seemed overdrawn to me was that Wolfe makes out the girls to be almost more predatory than the boys. They are always described as on the prowl in one way or another whereas the boys usually are not. The library scene really struck me as maybe a bit much.
I agree that on the male side, the hook-up scene is focused on frats and athletes but Wolfe shows that the females interested in those males outnumber the boys by a significant margin.
He also describes a real feeling of longing, regret and “being left out” by the freshman girls who don’t enter the scene. Charlotte, Mimi and Bettina all want to be a part of it on some level. The only girl Wolfe shows who has genuine disinterest (loathing, really) is the leftist lesbian Camille. That brings up an interesting point which is not explored because the book ends. What about those freshman girls’ remaining three years? Do they ever get over that feeling, WITHOUT succumbing to hook-up culture, and manage to enjoy their time?
Beyond that, he shows that those most into the scene are indeed miserable. Beverly is so miserable, and Charlotte witnesses her misery often, that whenever Charlotte envies her (which is often), I want to shake her and say “Look at the WRECK you are envying!” Beverly is not the only one in the book. Nicole is another one.
For the love of God don’t say that to your niece. It’s not your place to tell her there’s no Santa, and besides, maybe a male 4 will come along and snap her up.
Take it from a 4, when it comes to an end, we wish someone had told us. It would spare us a ton of heart ache.
Plus, I told her a male 4 might, but let’s be honest. In the world after assortive mating, much like the one before it, the bottom 60% of men won’t find mates (remember, the same literature you rely on shows historically only 40% of men had offspring). That’s why assortive mating is so important to maintaining civilization. It keeps the majority of men invested instead of not giving a shit.
If you heard my inner monologue on bad days you’d know why large numbers of men who never have children is a bad thing. On good days we don’t care if the whole thing burns. On bad days we’re ready to help…after all, we’ve got nothing to lose and would at least have a little revenge.
China will learn this hard in the coming decades. The US will get a milder version, but it’s coming.
“Or he eventually decides to quit engaging in a sunk cost fallacy. At some point he’ll conclude it’s not worth playing.”
As I said, they keep going until they get a taker, there is no concluding because they aren’t living in their heads. Do you get my point?
“And women on this thread are blaming him then telling him to pity the girl who go no attention not because she went through what she did but because she never got in the game.”
I did say that beta guys often make the decision to sit quietly on the sidelines and they also start resorting to blaming women for not approaching them for sex and relationships.
“Why isn’t she asked why she never approached men? Why is her being invisible the fault of the beta guys who were at least out trying and thus somehow at fault for not getting attention.”
I have a friend like this who complains about men looking through especially hot men. Meanwhile, she is overweight and does not take good care of her appearance but is often mad at hot men for overlooking her. She expects me to cheer her on and validate her in this. But all she gets from me is silence or “why don’t you come with to the gym tomorrow”. Her response is always, “working out is not my thing”. Absolutely, ridiculous.
Also, traditionally men are the ones who do the initiating and I don’t think this has changed for the most part. Women aren’t expected to pursue men and I know the argument will be that women are liberated. Therefore, they should take some of the pressure off men but this just another cope out, in my opinion. I have only heard this line of thinking from beta males.
Susan, now that you made me reminisce, at my school, the girls in the really prestigious sororities (DG, Tri-delt, KKG) were not sluts and would have been really appalled to have reputations as sluts. They wanted, and mostly got, high status boyfriends.
The frats were zoos of course but the sororities were really orderly places with live-in … I don’t remember what they were called … den mothers? No, not that, but they were like chaperones. You really couldn’t get away with being a slut and be in a top sorority. They would kick you out and make up some excuse.
Also, traditionally men are the ones who do the initiating and I don’t think this has changed for the most part. Women aren’t expected to pursue men and I know the argument will be that women are liberated. Therefore, they should take some of the pressure off men but this just another cope out, in my opinion.
A cope out?
God, that is classic lazy feminism…”I’m liberated so you better treat me like an equal but I expect to also be treated like a princess”.
I thought the woman who said that to my face was a flake at best but now I respect her for at least being honest. Most women have the same attitude, but won’t own it.
Either women are liberated and need to get in the game and ask men out and pay for dates or they’re delicate flowers that need men to do things and can stay at home, make babies, and generally STFU.
What that can’t do, because in the long run it just won’t happen, is claim to be equals when the goodies are divied up and claim to be “just girls” when the effing gravel needs to be shoveled.
Or course you’ve only heard it from beta males because they’re the ones who are expected to bear all the risk but share the reward.
You know, bankers don’t like new regulations that eat in their ability to make huge profits and shove losses off to the tax payer. Should they complain that taxpayers asking for the regulations are just coping out because you don’t hear bankers asking for them?
The manosphere should take note that if they want to crow about not wifing up a slut due to the biological double-standard, then they should accept the other half of that double-standard, which is taking the initiative to approach. You can’t have it both ways.
@Susan,
“Beta guys can either go after those women, whom they have no reason to resent, or compete for the ones who have been promiscuous in the past.”
I went to STEM Central University, where most of the women fell into this “beta female” territory. Lots of us beta guys tried going after these women, since they were our classmates, and it kind of made sense to look for a partner in our milieu first. Didn’t quite work, for the same reason that “beta” women had the same hypergamy as most other women. Now, STEM women tended to be longer range thinking, so you didn’t see as many slut it out (thought there were a few), but they tended to be more of “if I can’t have my alpha, I just won’t date”. It also helped that career and studies made it easier to justify that as “I don’t have time for a boyfriend” (beta boyfriend that is).
That tended to change once they’d been out of college for a few years, but by then, their age peer group of men start having other options…
The manosphere should take note that if they want to crow about not wifing up a slut due to the biological double-standard, then they should accept the other half of that double-standard, which is taking the initiative to approach. You can’t have it both ways.
And if women want to slut it up then they need to learn to STFU or approach men.
I don’t see a whole lot of articles in the Atlanta, NY Magazine, or the Dallas Morning News about “Where have all the virgins gone”. I see a lot of “Where have all the good men gone.” articles though.
Nor can you find me claiming I want a virgin are even a low number. Hell, I can prove just by who I married I didn’t even require thin (I do now though, because I won’t be another fat chick’s consolation prize to be discarded when she finally loses weight, but I don’t tell other men not to date fat women).
My problem in not trusting women not to trade up has nothing to do with them being sluts, but with the fact women seem to no longer value commitment regardless of why they say in surveys. When we were in counseling the ex accused me of only staying because I was obligated, or as our counselor told her to phrase commitment…apparently I was a bad man for having that, which I did until over two years after she just moved out and I finally filed for divorce.
Here’s a question for you – do you think Charlotte Simmons was a victim of Hoyt Thorpe? Or should she have known he was a cad? Who is responsible for the way she was treated?
“If you heard my inner monologue on bad days you’d know why large numbers of men who never have children is a bad thing. On good days we don’t care if the whole thing burns. On bad days we’re ready to help…after all, we’ve got nothing to lose and would at least have a little revenge.”
Herb my Internet friend, you speak the truth here. There have been times in the last 18 years that I would have been ready to help tear down Western civilization if it wasn’t for my children. And, I have to admit, if I knew how to do it and NOT hurt them in the process, I would have been looking for people to help. Hell as it stands now if the right person with the right beliefs started a grass roots revolution in the U.S. I might just join them. I’m not opposed to treason if the cause is just. After all, we are a country founded by traitors, so in a way it is wholly American.
They respected you.
“Like” is the currency of Girls.
“Respect” is the currency of Guys.
I know that now but it was still baffling I remember that they used to mock my lack of sexual partners all the time the running joke was that when I finally have a lover he will need a chisel and some of them didn’t knew I was still a virgin they assumed it was so long that it grew back. But then out of the blue in separate occasions one told me that I was doing the right thing waiting for marriage or commitment before having sex and other told me that he hoped that his daughter grew up to be like me. I think I was in shock for a week after that.
I hate to see a longterm marriage break-up. You say they are still friends. Did the husband want to break up as well?
I only have her on my Facebook don’t know the husband well. She never mentions that it was a mutual agreement she talks about herself and her choice only so my guess is not. Also she is already talking about two prospects she has one that is pursuing her, so of course she doesn’t want him and other that is more aloof so of course she wants him more so my guess is that if she is ready to date so fast she was the one that wanting out, YMMV.
Now before I feel I have to use an opposite example, I’m also friends with one of my husband’s young coworkers he is not cute, he is not in shape at all he is kind fat, he likes nerdy pursuits, he is sweet and his sense of humor is pretty self deprecating all on all as beta as it comes and he has a really cute girlfriend (she looks like Mike C’s girlfriend) that seems to treat him very nice so I don’t think all is lost of course this is a girlfriend let’s see if they move on as wife and how she goes from there still beta guys might not be as hopeless, YMMV.
Herb, I’m not defending women who want to champion their right to casual sex. In fact, my advice to them would be the same. Though I’m pretty sure the sluts are already approaching men. They just aren’t approaching “you”. Nor are they reading this blog, so I really don’t know why you guys constantly feel the need to rant about it.
so I really don’t know why you guys constantly feel the need to rant about it.
Because we keeping hearing the target audience of this blog is the 80% of college women who never had a bf and maybe they might get the picture that if they joined the game there are plenty of guys out there trying and getting shot down that might appreciate them. It’s our fight against pluralistic ignorance.
Also, the other target market is those same women right out of college about the time those beta men who did try either give up or go over to the Ros (who I don’t even read…I think I’ve read maybe three or four posts by Roissy when he came up in The Weekly Standard and I’ve never read the other two that I remember) in hopes that they will get out there and ask men out.
tldr; In hopes that beta girls will leave their rooms and be where the beta guys are dying in droves trying to get dates before the beta guys give up.
That tended to change once they’d been out of college for a few years, but by then, their age peer group of men start having other options…
I’m curious about dating and mating for betas after college. I know your story, but how would you say it played out for most of your STEM classmates? Did most of them get married? To whom? Age difference? Were they pursued later by women who had in fact ridden the carousel? Did they marry women they might have dated in college had they been acquainted?
@SayWhaat
One addendum…for all my complaints about the ex, I’ll give her this. Despite her weight she didn’t wallflower. She was out in the world mixing it up and making friends and being social.
That’s how I heard her yell, “I do the rock myself” after the Time Warp one Friday, which is why I hugged her and I told her I loved her saying it, which is how she told a friend in the cast she wanted me wrapped up in bow (which got communicated to me as “dude, you could get some”) and thus we met.
She wasn’t “poor me, I can’t get a date” even though she add (by her own admission) accepted her weight would mean she’d never get one. But she still got out there and was social.
Got her me and I introduced her to the world where all the men that came after (and during sadly) are from.
I did not intend for this to turn into some debate about feminism and that beta males should man-up. However, wanting women to initate dates then puts the onus on them and takes it off men like yourself who are afraid of being rejected. This is really the issue here; betas and their fear of being rejected by women due to their lack of confidence in themselves and their social skills.
What I object to is your assumption that we want women to shoulder all the risk we never have.
I shouldered it from the moment I discovered girls. I’ve shoulder it to this day although anymore after a round of rejections the space between attempts gets longer.
However, when I hear women who never have complain they don’t have a boyfriend I want to scream at them to ask a guy out. Or at least get where guys are asking women out.
Ben Stein, of Ferris Bueller fame, has a great book called Bunkhouse Logic. In it he talks about the American success fantasy where the local actress dreams of being a Hollywood star and the great director’s car breaks down in her town and he discovers her. He then talks about how it’s bunk and how she needs to go to NY and get in all the cattlecalls if she wants a shot.
Same for women who want a bf. They need to hear your logic a lot more than a lot of beta guys who have gone out there and been shot down.
Why is it beta women don’t ask men out or put themselves out in front of men trying to meet women? Are they afraid of rejection? Why is their fear a more valid excuse to sit out than a man’s fear?
Liza – “This is really the issue here; betas and their fear of being rejected by women due to their lack of confidence in themselves and their social skills.”
Here is a question for you. How exactly do you think those betas got that way? I mean, its easy to point a finger and claim that it is their fear that holds them back, and that is pretty damn true. But, WHY are they afraid?
You see, many men feel like women don’t care about that, and frankly it is disheartening at best. If women want betas to suddenly become something they can be attracted to, wouldn’t it make sense for them to figure out why they became so unattractive? Biologically speaking, it doesn’t make sense that SO many guys should be unattractive, I mean their father/sperm-donor managed to get laid at least once, so why are they so invisible?
All the guys here are trying to do is point out over and over WHY this isn’t as simple as teaching beta dudes some game. And as it stands, I believe that “game” evolved as a way to cope with exactly the environment that caused so many men to become unattractive to most women. So, by suggesting that beta guys “man up”, “learn game”, or any of the other commonly dispensed advice, you are actually telling them to beat the thing that put them down. But, I will wager that most beta guys don’t know what put them down. Do you?
But then out of the blue in separate occasions one told me that I was doing the right thing waiting for marriage or commitment before having sex and other told me that he hoped that his daughter grew up to be like me.
Susan, I put most if not all of the blame on Charlotte. I think Wolfe does too. That’s not to say that I have any sympathy for Hoyt. I think he is a dirtbag whereas I like Charlotte and I have sympathy for her. (Dalrock bait!)
Charlotte knew Hoyt was a cad. She just deluded herself into thinking she could “tame” him. Her interior monologues often have her thinking things like “I have him trained like a dog, I can control him.” She is star-struck and also sucked in by his good looks, by the envy of her peers, and by the glamour of the scene. She knows that Adam is better for her and more decent but she feels no attraction for him. She knows that Hoyt is wrong for her but nonetheless feels intensly attracted to him. Charlotte was specifically warned (by Beverly) that going away for the weekend implied sex but she went anyway on the assumption that she had it all under control. And of course she gets massively drunk, also under her control. Now, her lack of experience with booze didn’t help. However, none of it was forced on her.
One interesting point is that Charlotte does arrive at Dupont defenseless. She avoided the hook-up culture in HS even though the cool kids were having sex in part because of strong parental pressure. But that pressure is not there on a daily basis at Dupont. Her mother had a zero tolerance attitude about pre-marital sex and would not discuss the issue further in any way. Charlotte felt that strongly but not intellectually. There was no reason behind it that resonated with her hence it was not strong enough to overcome her natural desires, awakened by Hoyt. I think this is Wolfe’s way of showing that simplistic abstinance teaching is not enough. Not that abstinence is wrong or that teaching abstinance is wrong but that insistence without reason is not enough. If anyone is smart enough to understand a reasoned argument against hook-ups and pre-marital sex, it’s Charlotte but nobody ever spells one out for her.
The Charlotte we get at the end has stabilized but she is a lesser Charlotte than the one who arrived at Dupont. And not because she is no longer “pure” but because she has given over part of her soul to a rotten culture, rather than fight it or stand above it. The Charlotte who so impressed Mr. Starling in the beginnig is better than the Charlotte in the stands of the Buster Bowl at the end. I take Wolfe’s message to be, had Charlotte been able to resist the worst of Dupont the way she resisted the worst of Allegheney High, she would be a better person. So it’s an indictment of Dupont but also a lament about her well-meaning but inadequate upbringing.
Men don’t have emotions. We feel no pain and shall shoulder all risk.
Fine, but if I risk all I’m going for HB9.8 or above because frankly most women are not worth the risk involved in approaching nowadays.
For all the beta women who find that problematic. Too bad suck it up.
Men don’t have emotions. We feel no pain and shall shoulder all risk.
Fine, but if I risk all I’m going for HB9.8 or above because frankly most women are not worth the risk involved in approaching nowadays.
Nah, I’ll just save my pain tolerating time for the tri season
First spin class with the Atlanta Tri Club tonight, so if I die have a HUS virtual wake for me or something…Liza can talk about how I died because I just didn’t bike hard enough or something and you can come back with “that’s right, men feel no pain in their legs”
Although given swimming is my strong event I wish I could do the bike portion with a handcrank bike and just use my legs on the run.
Of course, I do not know how beta males came to be the way they are. However, I do not believe that they were born that way. No more than alpha males were born to be the way they are. I believe these are learned character traits by the way of environment and nurture. Therefore, they are not hardwired then they can be unlearned, right?
More of this is hard-wired than learned. That’s not to say that DNA = destiny but overcoming it is hard. Most will never try, of those that do, probably more will fail than succeed.
Sue: “No, I’m talking about the girl who didn’t go to parties and make out with randoms in school. She’s the beta female – going to classes, has some girlfriends from the dorm, is mostly invisible to guys, or at least feels that way. Never gets singled out or invited out by the opposite sex.”
Ah, I see the disconnect. In the past, you’ve mostly talked about women who hook up/FWB/whatever, yet still have “never gone a date”, as if this is the most common thing. You rarely talk about women who *don’t* mess around and don’t have dates.
How many of women really fall into this second category, though? Other than SayWhaat? Because most of the women here giddily remind us (often with faux annoyance) of how hot they are (or were) and how often they get hit on.
SayWhaat: “I will probably have a giant chip on my shoulder because every guy will be just another dipshit who rejected me because of my virginity — especially if he doesn’t reject me this time.”
You still seem have that chip.
As for “nuclear” rejections being overstated – remember, I got outed as a virgin twice IN PUBLIC. So I’m going to double up your virgin shaming and raise you nuclear cockblock.
“The manosphere should take note that if they want to crow about not wifing up a slut due to the biological double-standard, then they should accept the other half of that double-standard, which is taking the initiative to approach.”
I agree, but they already do. The vast majority of Game authors agree men MUST approach, because that is what works. Really, is there are manosphere blog article somewhere that says “Women should approach men!” somewhere that I haven’t seen?
The year I did the aqualon I was banded from biking by the doc (blood thinners made head trauma very risky…USA Triathlon even listed the one I was on by name as a “don’t compete” drug).
So I’ve run, I’ve swam, and I’ve swam/run, but swim/bike/run this will be my first year.
The goal is Ironman Moo (Wisconsin) in 2016, just in time to turn 50.
Why is it beta women don’t ask men out or put themselves out in front of men trying to meet women? Are they afraid of rejection? Why is their fear a more valid excuse to sit out than a man’s fear?
This is what I did when I noticed that only cads and married men approached me and the cute shy guys didn’t after changing many things about myself I took the initiative. I messaged my husband first in Sciconnect for example and I won the prize. I think is right and women should take some initiative I know that men supposedly don’t like this and consider women P&D or easy but we never mention that this are the type of men that already have tons of women throwing themselves at them the cute nerdy shy guy would no typically think “A girl finds me attractive! I finally have a chance of P&D someone!” I think he will more likely try to give you the better chance he can to get to know you better and from them maybe L’amour!, YMMV.
I am not sure a higher compliment can be given.
That is how I took still it came out of nowhere and from a totally unexpected source. Although at least in one case I knew I passed a very unsavory test with a married guy that chased me around so who knows maybe they were expecting me to fail and that is what brought it up? I’m babbling at this point mysteries are always interesting to me.
@Herb
So you are an athlete! Neat! Good luck with your goal. Let us know how it goes.
Because most of the women here giddily remind us (often with faux annoyance) of how hot they are (or were) and how often they get hit on.
I don’t I mentioned that I spent ten years with no kissing, touching or any kind of contact from males I’m not ashamed of had being a loser. Happens to be the best of us obviously.
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@Susan
“Why do you have no empathy for the women who get literally nothing? Why is it their responsibility to go sex up beta men?”
A girl saying “I only made out with an alpha every night but thats not what I really wanted” to the guy who hasn’t been in a relationship or made out with any pretty girl is actually cruel.
It screams “accept me for all my fuckups”.
So hypothetically,
Woman, no relationship, make out.
Men, no relationship, no make out.
How you can conflate those is equal is utterly beyond me.
To your second question, its not. Its also not mens responsibility to forgive women their fuck-ups either.
The alpha is the enemy. Game (at least as I understand it) is about developing a balanced set of alpha/beta traits. But the pure alpha is the enemy.
And this, btw, is the disconnect. The women are saying, whatever, we’ve moved on, what’s the problem? The problem is that women find the enemy attractive.
@Jesus
No, I’m talking about the girl who didn’t go to parties and make out with randoms in school. She’s the beta female – going to classes, has some girlfriends from the dorm, is mostly invisible to guys, or at least feels that way. Never gets singled out or invited out by the opposite sex.
If we assume that the girls making out with random high status guys are the girls that eventually have sex with random high status guys, then we’re still only talking about 9% of female students – at most. I don’t think girls who hook up routinely draw the line at making out – if they try, word gets around they’re prudes, i.e. a waste of time.
This isn’t a new concept I’m introducing here. It’s long been my contention that up to 80% of both sexes are pretty miserable in this SMP, because there’s no real way for them to participate. Again, the goals are different. The guys have no access to physical intimacy, and the girls have no access to emotional intimacy.
@OTC
Sounds reasonable to me.
@Lokland
That’s not the story I told. I spent three years in an LTR with a guy who happens to have been alpha. It wasn’t a fuckup, and I make no apologies for it. The same is true for J’s story. You extrapolated it to make a new argument – having to do with whether women rode the carousel.
@Jesus
Game is about ridding oneself of beta traits entirely. See the Ro’s. It’s about becoming pure alpha. Athol adapted Game to include relationship maintenance or improvement. Game was codified as a method of getting laid, not getting into a relationship, though it was always acknowledged that a pure alpha could get that if he wanted.
You have only to witness the pushback I get here from beta guys re their own beta traits to see this. Whenever I champion or defend a trait considered beta, several guys will express that they’re worried I’m giving hapless beta males the wrong message. I get the same resistance from male commenters when I criticize pure alpha behavior.
Your focus on Inner Game, Athol’s focus on marriage Game – these might be considered Game 2.0.
Okay, that makes more sense.
I’m interested in what other guys think: do others see the “pure alpha” as a sort of enemy or opponent–someone playing for an entirely different team?
@Jesus
Well now we’re back to defining alpha, which is always problematic. When a woman sees a man with a handsome, symmetrical face, a fit body and a confident grin – is he alpha? Does she think in those terms? Or might he be Jesus Mahoney, an attractive mix of physical and emotional traits? She doesn’t know yet. She’s initially attracted physically, and she needs to become better acquainted to see if this is a man she wants to get to know better with an eye toward long-term mating.
If he opens his mouth and is stupid, she’ll be repulsed. If he opens his mouth and is a dick, she will hopefully be repulsed. Has he just demonstrated that he is alpha? If he opens his mouth and engages her in witty banter with a smile, is he alpha? Good alpha or bad alpha? How about if he helps carry her groceries? Beta?
Women are wired to take their time in evaluating men as potential sexual partners. What we see in the current SMP is that some women are making snap judgments based on entirely superficial factors. Game theorists would call those factors the definition of alpha, but I’ve known some good looking beta guys who do very well attracting women for short-term, but have no interest in dating promiscuous women.
If alpha is defined as “guy women want to fuck” then looks is most of it. Because those are the guys women throw themselves at for ONSs.
Charm, what if the guy did NOT feel pressured by the media to have any casual sex? And, he did not dream of being a PUA? And, he did not attempt to get the highest notch count ever.
But, in his life of love and relationships, he met a really hot girl or two that was down for something casual. And, he had a really good time. With NO regrets.
What then?
Again, guys are not girls. Unless they are religious, the are unlikely to have hardcore opinions about casual sex. That does not mean they dream of being the next Roissy. But, enjoying a night or two with a pretty girl who is not likely to be Ms Right sounds OK.
Again, I am in no way trying to get you to think one way or the other. If you know exactly what you want, good for you. It sounds Anacoana knew what she wanted and aimed for it, and is, now, pretty happy.
But, I am curious to see what you think if you DON’T force the logic into some sort of, “If he had any casual sex, then, he MUST regret it.”
@JM
I see assholes as the enemy. Thats one breed of alpha.
Theres the classic type fo leadership alpha which is entirely discounted. Those guys are genuinely awesome to be around.
@Susan
Those girls who actually had nothing. They come from the same place as those beta guys. The question is, do they want those beta guys?
My guess would be no.
“If alpha is defined as “guy women want to fuck” then looks is most of it. Because those are the guys women throw themselves at for ONSs.”
Bodes well for marriages in general. Seeing as most men are ugly (NAWALT but enough are).
@J
One last attempt.
I get what your saying. I understand it, I’m not an idiot.
It doesn’t matter. Its like trying to convince me fat chicks are hot or slut will make good wives. Its wired into the hind brain.
So, your trying to throw logic at a situation and totally ignoring male emotions. Hence why I don’t blame you.
Men don’t have emotions, at least thats what the lady on the tv says.
I think Herb gave an excellent counter-example earlier so I won’t bother with one of my own.
J – “I would have thought that the news that women can and do move on would have made you guys happy. That’s why I brought it up. Apparently, it didn’t make you happy or you simply don’t believe me, so forget I said it. Chalk it up to the ravings of a middled-age woman and move on. Much of the time, moving on is the only way to win.”
No, I believe your story 100%. But, many women don’t have such a catastrophic ending to their “5 minutes of alpha”, and in fact may very well pine for them. Most of the time, the alpha simply moves on, leaving the women confused, sad, and lonely, all the while she still wants him back. THOSE are the women Lokland and the rest of us are talking about. Your story is the best case scenario, which is to say an alpha really screwed your life up for awhile, and you learned to avoid them. Many women NEVER learn that lesson.
Susan – “It sounds like guys are saying that it’s not the fact that the woman never gets over the AMOG (though I believe that was Lokland’s original point) but that a woman’s having been with an alpha at all is profoundly disturbing/threatening to men. Do men feel the same way if they have intelligence that the woman lost her virginity to the winner of the Science Fair?”
This is closer to the truth for me at least. As a guy with some smarts, no really intelligent men in my SO’s past wouldn’t bother me (she has none however, LOL) because I KNOW I can hold my own against people that really are geniuses. I’ve been around smarter guys than me most of my professional life, but I still kick their ass in the ability to apply my knowledge for practical uses. And, being someone with some intelligence, I’m not intimidated by more of it when I see it.
Now, the issue for me is I am not nor will I ever be pure alpha, and it isn’t something I can compete with. Since I feel so outclassed in that dept, it certainly does bother me that my SO has been with these guys. Sure, she may not value those traits anymore, but if she ever did I might be left holding the bag, so it IS a minor threat on my radar.
Same goes for really handsome guys. I’m not ugly, but I’m no Brad Pitt. If my SO’s past lovers were mostly pretty boys, I would feel VERY intimidated of them regardless of how she tells me she feels about me. Her feelings aren’t the point, it is the fact that she sampled some goods that I can’t reproduce. If she ever wants those good again, it will have to come from a different supplier, and of course that would be a problem.
“Why do you have no empathy for the women who get literally nothing? Why is it their responsibility to go sex up beta men?”
I am going to take a guess at this, because I don’t feel the same way. But, I think many men have little sympathy for such women because they feel that if the women really wanted some attention, all she would have to do is go to any bar and openly profess her desire for it, and she would have more than she wants. Never mind that the attention she would get isn’t the kind she wants, she still has an easier time of getting ANY attention than your average invisible beta dude.
“I would suggest that guys who focus on alpha as enemy are putting their energy in the wrong place. I can’t even imagine the male hamsterwheeling that needs to occur to get those guys into an alpha state themselves, which is what game promises. That sounds like a story that won’t end well”
It may be that the energy is going to the wrong place, but indeed much of it goes right there. To many betaish men, the alpha IS the enemy. Why? Because they grew up being told by young women how great they were, while all the alphas screwed those same women every weekend. Then, they got to hear those same women crying on their shoulder when the alpha moved on. That can make a guy kinda hate alpha’s in general pretty quickly. And, as a member of this group (although I don’t hate anyone, takes too much of my energy), I can tell you this is EXACTLY why game bothers me so much. It is a method to turn myself into something I despise. And yes, it takes some massive mental gymnastics to get past that ugly, nasty, bitter tasting truth.
“If alpha is defined as “guy women want to fuck” then looks is most of it. Because those are the guys women throw themselves at for ONSs.”
Sorry, but I call BS on this one. Some of the most successful PUAs out there are short and bland looking, yet they score big time. So, if it isn’t their looks, what about them makes them appear to be alpha? It’s their attitude, and to me the average PUA has a shitty attitude, that for some reason women can’t get enough of. THAT is what makes alpha “the enemy” for me.
JM – “I’m interested in what other guys think: do others see the “pure alpha” as a sort of enemy or opponent–someone playing for an entirely different team?”
Yep I certainly do. Although, I should clarify that I’m talking about your average asshat alpha, not the John Wayne types, if any of those even exist today…
Ramble – “Again, guys are not girls. Unless they are religious, the are unlikely to have hardcore opinions about casual sex. “
I’m not highly religious, but I have VERY strong opinions on casual sex. If that’s what Charm is looking for, well I don’t consider myself a unicorn. Very odd? Yep. Pretty rare? Probably. But I’m here, and I know a few other guys that are similar, so I guess I’m saying: Not All Men Are Like That.
NAMALT just doesn’t sound as good as NAWALT…
@Susan
“You have only to witness the pushback I get here from beta guys re their own beta traits to see this. Whenever I champion or defend a trait considered beta, several guys will express that they’re worried I’m giving hapless beta males the wrong message. I get the same resistance from male commenters when I criticize pure alpha behavior.”
When you push beta traits it comes across as mocking.
When you push alpha traits it comes across like your trying to deny a wet dream actually happened.
@Ted D
“Yep I certainly do. Although, I should clarify that I’m talking about your average asshat alpha, not the John Wayne types, if any of those even exist today…”
Its funny. John Wayne was the same guy I thought of when answering JM describing a good leader.
Interesting, it’s a credibility issue. I can only offer my experience as wife and mother to beta guys, and champion of beta traits in the raising of my daughter.
Lokland and Ted,
I’m not very familiar with John Wayne, but the idea evokes a guy who uses his “alpha” traits to support the weak and less advantaged… in other words, someone who’s a mix of alpha and beta.
” I don’t know a single woman who longs for the alpha that got away. They tend to leave such a trail of destruction, no one mourns them in the end. It’s like recalling Hurricane Katrina with fondness.”
It is like; what the hell was I thinking? Moreover, I am glad I finally came to my senses. There are no fond memories and longing.
Where do they [manosphere] get that bullshit?
Susan – “Interesting, it’s a credibility issue. I can only offer my experience as wife and mother to beta guys, and champion of beta traits in the raising of my daughter.”
It also doesn’t help that other than Athol, you are the only one I know if in the genre that even suggests beta traits are attractive to women at all. And to be honest, Athol doesn’t suggest they are attractive so much as necessary for long term relationship bliss. Everywhere else guys go, they are told beta is bad and alpha is good. And, just like it’s tough for you to understand the previous lover/number issue, you might have a tough time with this. Men who have been beta most of their lives and had little success simply find it hard to believe that what they have IS indeed attractive, if only presented in a better light. I found it easier at first to believe I was all bad/wrong/broken and needed to be completely rebuilt into something better. Being an older guy that was mostly comfortable with myself, I realized pretty quickly that I like who I was, and only needed to adjust and tweak some things to create that better presentation, but I imagine younger men and/or men that are less comfortable “in their own skin” might simply reject everything they currently are and go for the full on alpha asshat mode. If I had found the red pill prior to getting married, I can’t say I wouldn’t have done it myself. The enticing prospect of “rolling in poon” may have been enough for me to scrap my morals and ethics completely. I’m very glad that didn’t happen, but if it had I wouldn’t have known the difference anyway I suppose.
@JM
“I’m not very familiar with John Wayne, but the idea evokes a guy who uses his “alpha” traits to support the weak and less advantaged… in other words, someone who’s a mix of alpha and beta.”
Ya its an actual hero. Not a modern hero (thinking Green lantern here) which is basically a teenager with a six pack but an actual good person who champions the weak.
@Lisa
“It is like; what the hell was I thinking? Moreover, I am glad I finally came to my senses. There are no fond memories and longing.
Where do they [manosphere] get that bullshit?”
Wow you came to your senses? Good for you.
Now just go get the good guy thats been sitting there waiting patiently while you fucked some alpha.
Excuse me while I puke.
The problem is only partially that your over it. The larger problem is that you were there in the first place.
Yes. Personally, I trust in your sincerity or else I wouldn’t bother coming here. But, a woman who has dated or slept with “alphas”, or finds them hot, raves about them, “dishes” about them–loses her credibility in the eyes of a beta guy. The “alpha”–by which I mean the guy dripping alpha traits and not evincing many beta ones–is the enemy.
Right. To me, that “hero” represents the epitome of the alpha-beta combination.
“Right. To me, that “hero” represents the epitome of the alpha-beta combination.
The trouble is, it wasn’t so long ago that THIS was the alpha ideal. I’d say its only been since the 70′s on that the term alpha morphed to represent the asshats of the male sex. When I rail against alphas, everyone here should now going forward I am referring to ASSHAT MEN ONLY. The “real” leaders, again if there are any/many left, are not alphas in my eyes. They are too good to be given that label.
SW:Do men feel the same way if they have intelligence that the woman lost her virginity to the winner of the Science Fair?
JM:Of course not. But for many guys, the alpha is the enemy.
Yeah, the enemy that many of you guys worship and want to emulate.
Would it make you guys happier to learn my ex-fiance was a grad student in a biological science, had an IQ of about 165 and had published research papers. I doubt recall him ever having won at a science fair, but he was no frat guy, football player. In childhood pictures, he resembles Milhouse from “The Simpsons.”
Not I.
J,
I’m not criticizing you personally. Sorry if you took it that way. I was just pointing out that it’s not so easy to just move on in many cases. Your case seems to be different. And really, I don’t know most of the details about it, so I can’t comment on it one way or another–and I wasn’t trying to comment on your personal history.
Well that’s a shame for those men, because very few will be able to fully transition to alpha asshat, and like it. Most people aren’t cut out to be narcissistic sociopaths, red pill or not.
High SMV women are likely to have been pursued by alpha males. They may have all been evil cads, or maybe not. Some of those women have dated alphas, and liked it.
IDK, refusing to accept that reality is to suggest that women find beta traits equally desirable and attractive up front, even in the absence of any alphaness. And we know that’s just not true. Pure dominant alphas will get more women than pure supplicating betas. I feel foolish even stating the obvious. There is a baseline level of dominance that a male must have to spark female attraction.
I have to say I’m feeling frustrated with the alpha/beta dichotomy here, it doesn’t work. Let’s discuss specific traits if you want to continue talking about this.
Wow you came to your senses? Good for you.
Now just go get the good guy thats been sitting there waiting patiently while you fucked some alpha.
Excuse me while I puke.
Lokland,
Sorry, I did not intend to make you sick with my comment. However, it is not my or any other woman’s fault that the “good guys” decided to just sit and wait. No one is stopping them from going for the women they desire–other than themselves–period.
Yes, a hero does. His nemesis is a powerful and dominant male who is evil. Every superhero story stars these two characters. There’s a reason we say Dark and Light, Sith and Jedi. Many of the popular Game bloggers represent and promote the latter. Only the innate goodness of some males prevents them from being completely corrupted. I’m thankful for that at least.
In SMP terms, “alpha” is for men what looks are for women: traits that trigger visceral reaction regardless of the attractee’s character, education, and concious thoughts.
No one would advise a man to marry a woman simply because she is beautiful, ignoring everything else. And we would all agree that any man who did so would be an idiot. And would probable end up miserable. However, neither would most of us advise a man to marry a woman “perfect” in every respect but whom he found ugly or plain. Both parties are going to end up unhappy.
Sensible women need to learn to see alpha the same way. Accept that it will always be a visceral attraction trigger. Don’t marry based on that alone. But also don’t marry someone you believe lacks those traits entirely, even if in every other respect your brain tells you that he is “perfect for you.”
Moderation in all things.
Sue,
Okay, this:
Alpha: Dominant guy, leader in school/career, in possession of resources, athlete or at least one of those “amazing” athletic bodies, dripping in confidence and finesse, has multiple opportunities romantic and otherwise.
On the other hand, though he’s not evil, he’s not very concerned with others, whether with their happiness or their suffering (except as it relates to him). His only true interests are those which relate to him and his status–in other words he doesn’t find the world beyond his own needs and desires very engaging. His primary interest is himself–and his success.
I know you’ve moved on but I just want to say that it’s this notion of imprinting that is the real canard.
And that’s just it. If a guy tells me that he has an emotional need to be the first, I can accept that. If he tells me that he has to feel that way because of something the three Ro’s have deluded him into thinking that I feel, then I have to call BS.
Also, I cosign your remarks regarding the large number of girls who sit on the shelf in college. I was not a social-social kind of gal, but rather I was introverted, highly motivated to do well in school, and very intellectual. That scared a lot of guys away, which hurt and discouraged me until I realized that I needed to demonstrate warmth and to actively pursue a particular demographic as opposed to just waiting to be noticed by Mr. Right
@Susan
“High SMV women are likely to have been pursued by alpha males. They may have all been evil cads, or maybe not. Some of those women have dated alphas, and liked it.”
Yes. I also like sluts. Big fan, make my penis feel good.
I don’t expect everyone else to cheer and be happy for me nor accept my decision.
Also, there is a dichotomy where men will screw the HB10 but date and marry the HB6-7. Reasons become readily apparent when you present it in this light.
Also, beta is desirable. Alpha is attractive.
Much like women, hot is hot. Feminine is desirable.
Being extremely feminine but looking like a troll won’t work.
Beta is the male version of looking like a troll with a heart of gold.
Both are essential for long term.
However, when your telling the troll with a heart of gold that you want what he is not and then expecting him to somehow want to marry you is beyond me.
@Lisa
“No one is stopping them from going for the women they desire–other than themselves–period.”
Or the women who continually say no. But yeah other than that I’ll agree a large portion is in their head.
“However, it is not my or any other woman’s fault that the ‘good guys’ decided to just sit and wait. No one is stopping them from going for the women they desire–other than themselves–period.”
Sorry, it is at least partially woman-kind’s fault. If women didn’t mercilessly mock betas, indulge in “nuclear rejections,” overestimate their SMV and short the SMV of various betas, and otherwise make approaching so nervewracking for non-alphas, then maybe more betas might approach.
Beyond this, it is the nature of betas to be more reticent. So your statement amounts to “It’s not our fault that betas are not alphas, no one is stopping them from being alpha.” Well, no one but their innate natures and personalities. The mission of the game bloggers is to take those betas who want to become alphas and help them do it. I gather you welcome that?
Let me help with this:
Woman, no relationship, make out.
Men, no relationship, no make out.
Woman, no relationship, make out=being used. I think in today’s SMP, it appears to young women that choice is between being lonely and being used. That’s why we have so many loony girls getting so drunk. They need to convince themselves that they are having a great time being used.
For the girls that are hooking up, probably. But a girl who’s done that doesn’t sound like such a great relationship bet, does she?
@J
And trying to tell the guy who never got to use anybody that you realized you didn’t like being used is the same as slapping him in the face, kicking him in the nuts and then pissing on him.
I am about through my second read of the much-maligned “I Am Charlotte Simmons.” This book is now eight years old. I wonder how much the SMP has changed, if at all.
Anyway, if Wolfe is right, then it’s wrong to say that these girls are being used, at least in the sense that they don’t know what they are doing. Charlotte herself is the rare/unique case (in the book). All the other girls plunge in head-first, willingly, enthusiastically.
So now even having dated an alpha or two is a bad thing?
I’m screwed then.
It doesn’t matter. Its like trying to convince me fat chicks are hot or slut will make good wives. Its wired into the hind brain.
OK, I’m fine with that. I’m really not trying to discount your feelings. My problem is the ‘sphere’s trying to convince me that I feel things that I simply don’t feel. It’s not you personally.
Sassy,
It’s not a bad thing if you ultimately want to end up with an alpha.
@ Jesus Mahoney
I might be fine then.
I wonder if even alpha males care whether or not a woman they date has dated other alpha males.
Escoffier,
I get the frustration of beta guys. I really do. I also get a little impatient with them at times. However, my frustration is not that I want them to be alphas per se. I just want them to get out of their own heads and take more risks when it comes to pursuing women. I just don’t think it is necessary for them to morph themselves into alphas or whatever in order to do so. That’s all.
Your story is the best case scenario, which is to say an alpha really screwed your life up for awhile, and you learned to avoid them.
LOL. Best case for whom? I cut off my hair off and quit dating for two years, so great was my distrust in my ability to pick out good men.
Many women NEVER learn that lesson.
As someone who has compared notes with many women, I’d beg to differ with that. I don’t know many who DON’T have a story like mine.
That’s not how hooking up works, JM. What happens is the girl goes to a party, gets really tipsy, chats with friends and this cute (beta/alpha, take your pick) guy, makes out with him, gives him her number, and then never hears from him again. THAT is being used.
My guess is that guys who are high in alpha traits and low in beta ones will care very little about either your thoughts or history–unless one of them affects your (and, as a result, his) reputation.
Meh, maybe the first time it happens it’s being used.
Susan – “Well that’s a shame for those men, because very few will be able to fully transition to alpha asshat, and like it. Most people aren’t cut out to be narcissistic sociopaths, red pill or not.”
You are preaching to the choir if that comment is directed at me. I fully agree that most men are NOT cut out for full on alphadom, but it sure as hell looks better than where they currently are. Couple that with a generation of guys with far less moral baggage, and you have a possible mess. And I think it is a male tendency to want to completely destroy the old and build the new on its crumbled remains. For me, it would have been far easier to simply give up on my entire outlook regarding relationships and women, and just jump full into “game”. However I know that *I* would have been miserable in short time, whether I was successful or not. And as much as I complain of the difficulty, being in a LTR at the time certainly played a huge role in my decision to make minor changes instead of a full on rebuild. JM’s venture into casual encounters turned out similarly, but without actually knowing his age, I would say that he as a very good grasp of his own motivations and hangups, so it was easy for him to clearly see that it wasn’t his way. Again, most people simply are NOT introspective enough to figure it out, and even if they would be miserable on the casual carousel, at least it is misery with lots of sex, which is by far better than misery without. As long as you don’t have that nagging morality to worry about…
@ Jesus Mahoney
Yeah, I can see that being the case.
I think it depends on a man’s makeup. I do want a man to have some beta traits, but I want him to have significantly more alpha traits.
Roughly, the ideal for me would be 75% Alpha, 25% Beta.
Escoffier, don’t paint women with that blanket generalization about “nuclear rejections” and shit. That’s bullshit fabricated by the manosphere tomake women a scapegoat for their own shortcomings.
JM–Sorry if I came off as offended. I didn’t think you were dealing with me personally and I didn’t mean to impy that you personally hero-worship alphas. I just wanted to comment in general about the irony of “betas” both hating and wanting to be “alphas.”
No, that is playing a particular “game”, and not liking the outcome.
Think of it another way.
Some girl, over the course of, say, 3 years, makes out with 12 guys, giving (or being asked for) her number to 8 of them, 5 calling her, 3 seeming cool and 1 great relationship.
Was she used by the 3 that did not call?
Did she use the 4 she did not give her number to?
What about getting their numbers and calling them?
What about the guys that she dated but did not suck/fuck? Were they used?
It is a game. Not all outcomes are pleasing to all players.
****I’m interested in what other guys think****: do others see the “pure alpha” as a sort of
enemy or opponent–someone playing for an entirely different team?
Jesus, you are usually the first to question the entire notion of alpha vs beta, so I’m really not sure what you mean by “pure alpha”. I think it is useful to talk of alpha vs beta traits and behaviors, but I’m not sure how to tell the difference between a “pure alpha” and a guy who is 97.314159% alpha and a guy who is 88.756748943% alpha.
If you asked me this question in high school, I would have probably answered yes, they are my enemies and opponents, but even then I can recall 2 specific guys who were most definitely alpha (big-time jocks and super popular with the top girls), but cool guys in that they didn’t seem to partake in making fun of nerds/unpopular guys (which I was in high school).
There is that video of the Australian guy who threw the big bash being interviewed on TV (Cory I think is his name). Do I think he is an asshole? Yes. Do I think he is an idiot? Yes. Do I think he is my enemy? No.
Just my personal experience, but I’ve had two separate positive experiences with guys who were very alpha. The first was a group of guys I met right out of college at the gym as I was trying to remake my physical appearance. They were cool to me, and made me part of their group. The second experience was with the head bouncer when I started that job soon after my divorce. For whatever reason, he took an interest in me and getting me back on my feet in the game. I was often scheduled with him as part of a 2 man crew on weeknights (I think the manager thought I needed to work with a big-time hard ass) so we would have alot of time to get in conversations, and he would coach me on stuff. I remember the first time I got laid after the divorce, he seemed like a proud father. So it is hard for me to view guys who are very alpha as my enemies or opponents. That said, these guys definitely had some “asshole” qualities about them, and I heard some stories about stuff that definitely crossed some moral boundaries in my mind.
In contrast, based on what you’ve shared here, it sounds like you had a nightmarish, horrific experience with an “alpha” with your brother who sounds like a sociopath based on the incidents you’ve described. Based on that personal experience, it makes sense to me you would see “alphas” as the enemy and find repulsive any attraction to a guy who demonstrated those behaviors.
Anyways, that is my answer to your question.
Sassy – “I wonder if even alpha males care whether or not a woman they date has dated other alpha males.”
Nope. They all believe they are God’s gift to you, so your previous lovers are irrelevant.
J – “Your story is the best case scenario, which is to say an alpha really screwed your life up for awhile, and you learned to avoid them.
LOL. Best case for whom? I cut off my hair off and quit dating for two years, so great was my distrust in my ability to pick out good men.
Many women NEVER learn that lesson.
As someone who has compared notes with many women, I’d beg to differ with that. I don’t know many who DON’T have a story like mine.”
First off, best case for you. It may have caused you a few years of misery, but you learned.
Those women you compared notes with where what age? I’m basing much of my opinion off of my 18yo daughter’s friends here. Those girls aren’t learning this lesson, despite being screwed over by asshats repeatedly. Hell one of them just told my daughter she is pregnant to some 25yo thug from the “hood”. She just turned 18 last summer, and now has to face life as a single mother. She is cute, smart, and I had hoped immune to assholean behavior. Alas she has proven that she is not.
And last, my apologies if I came across as harsh. I am only basing my comments on the information you provided. I certainly didn’t intend to minimize any emotional trauma caused by some asshole in your life. But all things considered, I still stand by my statement that you were smart enough to figure it out.
JM, that’s the general script that puts women at a huge disadvantage. If she doesn’t even make out with the guy, she’s communicating disinterest *according to the rules of this SMP*. Maybe an AMOG can claim to not follow and make his own rules, but alpha and beta women alike don’t have that luxury.
Yeah that’s the sad fact, isn’t it. People don’t know the difference between freedom and having nothing of importance.
One of my acquaintances in Facebook just broke up her 19 years old marriage to find herself (she is still friends with her husband and talks good things about him so this was obviously an EPL case, IMO) and is filling her page almost every hour with this absurd quotes about freedom and happiness and other feel good masturbation quotes. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad. I pity her girls they seem to be really nice but they already have a strong message about how much a marriage should last: till you feel like it.
That’s bullshit fabricated by the manosphere tomake women a scapegoat for their own shortcomings.
Whoa.
SayWhat, I can often agree with much of what you say, but, here, I think that you are off base.
I am sure that the sphere exaggerates the percentage of approached end in “nuclear” rejections, but…
Really Bad Rejections are a very real thing.
Girls crowding together and laughing at some poor schmuck is very real.
Referring to any guy that does not know what he is doing as creepy is very real.
Having an education system absolutely favor one sex over another, to feed those students into a workplace with openly sexist (in favor of girls) hiring practices, and then have those girls make fun of guys for living in his mothers proverbial basement (while, they, themselves, are ACTUALLY living at home with their parents) is downright fucked up.
Ted, 18yo is still very young. They are making mistakes and are in the process of learning from them. You can’t fault them for stumbling when they’re young. If they were 30, that would be a different story.
@JM
Not to mention it may not be true.
If I wanted to claim the biggest lie my parents told me as I was the “outsider” and “loser” in HS was that my day would come.
Some of us are just not built in ways we’ll ever fit in and be overly wanted. If we were told that from the beginning we’d probably be less bitter in the end.
saywhaat, of couse NAWALT, etc., but 1) Betas are already naturally reticent so it’s not reasonable to expect them to be approaching all the time even if the risks were low and 2) That stuff does happen and it gets around, which only increases their reticence.
And another thing, alphas get their fair share of rejection as well. You cannot go up to women you do not know and say, “Hey baby, you have a nice ass” or some other obnoxious rude thing and expect that they are going to fall all over you.
Mike C,
The best example of the example you gave was the Vince Vaughan character in Swingers.
Guys love to see “good” guys succeed.
One great example of how this might play out is when the younger “beta” starts getting depressive, or down on himself, and the “alpha” with, both, love and tough-love, tells him to Shut The Fuck Up.
Smacks him out of his bullshit depressive musings and “wakes” him up to what can be a great reality.
This is how men “Pass It On”.
You cannot go up to women you do not know and say, “Hey baby, you have a nice ass” or some other obnoxious rude thing and expect that they are going to fall all over you.
This is almost exactly what Arnold Schwarzenegger said to Maria Shriver’s mother (a well known liberal).
It worked out well for him…until it didn’t.
SW – “Ted, 18yo is still very young. They are making mistakes and are in the process of learning from them. You can’t fault them for stumbling when they’re young. If they were 30, that would be a different story.”
OH I agree, but it seems that they are starting to get ‘sexual’ younger, so if they don’t figure it out by the time they GO TO college, it looks like they can get into a lot of trouble. And, when I say that they have been getting screwed over by asshats, I mean since like 9th grade. The unfortunate effect of all this early sexual activity is: there is NO room for “young and naive” anymore. Of course, as I said elsewhere, I imagine much of what I see is directly related to the SES of the area I live in, where there are far more poorer people than middle/upper-class. When I say the “hood”, I actually mean an area of town where people regularly get shot/mugged/raped/beaten/etc. I don’t live there, but those areas aren’t too far away, and these guys LOVE to troll the “softer” school districts looking for young girls that are easily impressed into bed, that they can avoid easily afterwards.
It breaks my heart that this young woman has completely derailed her plans to go to nursing school, and is now looking at how to apply for assistance, since her parents kicked her out for getting “knocked up”. Great world we live in…
Okay, Ramble, how is playing the game and not liking the outcome any different from guys NOT playing the game due to their own insecurities and then resenting women and other men for it?
Re: nuclear rejections, it’s your anecdotal experience vs mine. And IME, most women want to avoid causing any kind of scene whatsoever.
Some of us are just not built in ways we’ll ever fit in and be overly wanted. If we were told that from the beginning we’d probably be less bitter in the end.
Herb, could you imagine telling some 18 yo girl that, even if she lost those 15 lbs, she is still not likely to be all that pretty?
Sure, but the current script generally puts decent guys at a disadvantage as well, because if they don’t convey a good deal of “alpha” behavior, if they don’t escalate immediately, for example, and hint at a bit of arrogance, or display a lot of pre-selection, they get nowhere. The hook up script only validates “alpha” displays of interest. You can’t give a pass to the women and not the men.
Lokland #339
I’m not going to have a fruitless argument with you regarding who gets hurt more in this SMP. All I’m going to say is that sometimes the smartest thing is to let go, cut your losses, shower off the piss and move on.
That’s not my attempt to trump you in a debate. It’s just my attempt to give you some helpful advice. You can’t get whatever it is (a blanket apology from all women on the behalf of those who provided previous bad experiences?) that you are looking for. Sadly, it doesn’t exist.
I could push you to apologize on the behalf of all men for my ex; I could apologize for your previous bad experiences–but, in the end, we’d both have exactly nothing. The best thing I ever did for myself was to shrug it off, learn to be a better picker and go out and build a life for myself. Living well really is the best revenge.
You are taking two different issues and attempting to relate them.
I am saying that your definition of “used” was wrong. They were not used, they simply did not like the outcome of a game they were playing.
Whether or not that is analogous to guys getting humiliated upon rejection is another issue.
Whoa, again. I listed out more things than just the Nuclear rejections, which I stipulated is probably exaggerated in the ‘Sphere.
It sounds Anacoana knew what she wanted and aimed for it, and is, now, pretty happy.
Thanks I am I will like to add that aside from a natural repulsion to asshole’s behaviour I do have a lot of insight on casual sex and men at least Dominican men.
I was friends with many of this guys and they spent quite some time making clear that all the girls that opened their legs to them without asking any commitment in return upfront were considered low lives by them. The sense I got is that they though the world of me (and they did God knows why I was pretty harsh with them when the theme of their sexcapades came around) was because I wasn’t fucking them. So the idea that is just a good time with no implications whatsoever, sorry I don’t buy that, never seen it even with the guys that got a really hottie and try to make it more there was this contempt in their treatment of them and eventually something broke them of.
Another thing is that my little brother hated sluts as much as I hated manwhores and he never actually even sexed them up no matter how much they threw themselves at him and I was there because we used to work together, so I realized that a man can lose respect for a woman and not want to get his dick wet on her at the same time. It was a good thing because many of my male friends told me that a man can’t help it. Manosphere guys seem to preach the same concept of I wanted her but now that she showed slut tells I will just bang her for a few times and leave her ASAP and this might be the majority but really I don’t want a man that has such idea about sex. If men hate the Alpha in their women’s past some women can hate the sluts in their man past too.
I also had a couple of friends that got disappointed on their wives when they asked or performed sexual acts some sluts did in their marriages, they automatically bumped them in the slut ladder even if they were virgin when they meet and from them on the relationship just went downhill to actively cheating and divorce.
So there is always the fear that if he has a strong laddering complex one day you are going to be too slutty for him not to make assumptions about what kind of woman you would had been if he would had come into your life later and from them then on you are screwed up.
Again all this are my observations and insight I know that Dominican men are fucked up in the head but I really do think manosphere don’t has a lot of samples of men swimming in punani, given the circumstances to see the long term repercussions of indulging on their variety instinct I did and it ain’t prettier than when women are unleashed sexually. Sex is a powerful instinct in our species and it can be more destructive than many people realize, YMMV.
Mike C,
Yes, my brother’s a sociopath.
It sounds as if the thing that bonded you to those men was not their alpha behavior, but their beta behavior: they took you under their wings. In other aspects of their lives, they may have been ultra-alpha, but in terms of your relationships with them, it sounds as if there was a good deal of beta stuff going on.
Escoffier, was the manosphere the first place that introduced you to the term “nuclear rejection”? It’s an overblown meme, and it is not the fault of other women if men are afraid to approach. I will certainly (and I have) made it easy for people to approach me, but refusing to approach is your own damn fault. I say this as a woman who has been approached and has also done her fair share of initiating. The latter only serves to place me on an accelerated sexual timeline, which I did not want.
No offense taken, Ted, though I appreciate your consideration for my feelings.
My “data” comes from a lifetime of listening to other women’s stories. Probably most have been my age, but I’m the neighborhood “hip mom.” My friends’ college age daughters like to talk to me. Most women do learn from bad experiences. In all age groups, there tend to be a few diehards who insist on neurotically making the same mistakes over and over again. The older ones seem to be conscious of what they are doing, but powerless to stop–that’s sort of the defining trait of a neurotic though.
@J
“It’s just my attempt to give you some helpful advice.”
Don’t need it.
“You can’t get whatever it is (a blanket apology from all women on the behalf of those who provided previous bad experiences?) that you are looking for. Sadly, it doesn’t exist. ”
Don’t need it. I’ve never had a bad experience wrt relationships (excluding a period of lonliness in high scool).
I only care about the men don’t have emotions meme and its implications for the SMP.
J, nah, let’s not think of living well as revenge. I prefer to just move on, learn from the past, forgive, and be happy.
Focus on the positive, not the negative. That’s my mantra these days.
The term, yes, but the reality, no. I was only personally blown out a couple of times because I hated approaching and almost never did it but I witnessed it or had it described to me many times.
And now we have the Internet in which some poor sap’s humiliation need not end where it starts but is memorialized for all time by girls who think it’s cute to tell the story online. Didn’t have to face that in my youth, thank God.
The sense I got is that they though the world of me (and they did God knows why I was pretty harsh with them when the theme of their sexcapades came around) was because I wasn’t fucking them.
They respected you.
“Like” is the currency of Girls.
“Respect” is the currency of Guys.
Same goes for really handsome guys. I’m not ugly, but I’m no Brad Pitt. If my SO’s past lovers were mostly pretty boys, I would feel VERY intimidated of them regardless of how
she tells me she feels about me. Her feelings aren’t the point, it is the fact that she sampled some goods that I can’t reproduce. If she ever wants those good again, it will
have to come from a different supplier, and of course that would be a problem.
Ted,
This gets to the concept of revealed preference. I’m hesitant to bring up any of the personal examples discussed in this thread, as it becomes impossible to discuss it academically without the person being personally attacked, but I think it is important to observe what a person has done rather than what they say. I do think it is one thing for a woman to have had say 1 or even 2 relationships with a certain type of guy, realize that “type” isn’t for her, and go for a totally different type of guy. It is quite another if she has had multiple relationships and/or hookups with one type and than switches to another. Then you’ve got to question what is motivating the switch as you point out.
JM, I would argue that’s another pretty red lie fed to men by the manosphere. I never needed aggressive escalation, arrogance, etc. All in one go before I made up my mind about a guy. The current script is not putting decent guys at a disadvantage. If they put just one foot in the game they would be free to ignore texts from any girl they chose to make out with.
This…
Or, perhaps a better way to put it.
We have a fat guy and a fat chick.
We’re happy to tell the fat guy he needs to get in shape to get attention so the fact he isn’t is his fault.
We tell the fat chick it’s men’s fault for not being willing to see past the fat to their personality.
Hell, I’ve seen that dichotomy in what my sister has told me versus female friends much heavier than me (and unlike me, they didn’t train for and do a 500m/5k aquathon with her).
It has less to do with the fact those women go no more attention than we did than the fact they’re told they were wronged and we’re told it’s our fault.
Did those girls approach men and get shot down? We did.
Did those girls spend money on dates that went no where? We did.
You say you miss Badger Susan. Perhaps you should go back to one of his best writings, on the approach cost disparity between men and women. I think that’s what drives a lot of the disdain beta men have for “beta” girls. They suffered the same fate as us but we had to pay upfront for the privilege.
For the long discussion of fear of the alpha. I think most of the women forget most men know at least one guy like me that thought they found a woman who wanted them but once that woman thought she could pull alpha the beta husband got abandoned.
See that enough and you grow that fear. Ask any shrink: paranoia is a learned behavior.
Ana,
I hate to see a longterm marriage break-up. You say they are still friends. Did the husband want to break up as well?
DH and I are friends with a couple who broke up after 22 years. DH still plays music with the husband as do all our sons. I still see the wife. She has a new bf. Her ex dates around. Everyone appears deliriously except DH and I who are pissed about the break up. They let us down.
You’re right, Hope. (re revenge)
Saywhaat,
Idk. You could be right–I’m not sure. My experience with trying to pick up girls in bars and clubs is limited.
@Liza
At what point can they say they’ve taken enough risk.
Not one interested woman out of 23 at speed dating.
Over 100 emails on OkCupid, Match.com, and eHarmony with just two responses (and not spam, but emails, over 20 written with a paid dating coach), only one lead to a date, and she was married in an open relationship (so, sure, nudge and tickle but LTR isn’t there).
Multiple nights as the wingman.
Divorce because she could get better.
Sure, those are my personal example, but all but the last are pretty representative of what beta guys go through before they give up. You don’t start shelling out $1000+ to Vince Lin or Mystery for a weekend seminar because you were lonely. You do it because you feel like a rejected loser and rejection requires you having taken a shot to begin with.
(btw, your avatar isn’t helping you make any argument to beta guys)
@Ramble
Yes…in fact, I’m prepared to tell my nephew and my neicphew that if and when the time comes.
If someone had told me in 5th grade that you could either start liking sports and TV and all that and be accepted or continue to be a loser now and always will be I would have had the choice to change.
Instead I got told to be myself and one day you’ll find people like you and have the friends and popularity everyone else has. So I kept being myself instead of changing myself.
Now I’m 45 and know better. I think it’s a sin let kids learn that too late for them to make a choice.
Do people really fear the alpha? I don’t like to hear that. The only thing that gives the alpha his power is the fear, respect, admiration, and attraction that people have for him.
I don’t fear alpha–I just hold him in contempt.
JM, it happens at apt parties too. For those with a semblance of a social life.
You’d think a girl would just find a different scene then, one that she didn’t feel required her to make out with strangers she may never see again.
That’s the point, JM! There’s no requirement. But if she makes out with that cute guy who is awkwardly standing near the wall because she thinks he’s cute and has interesting things to say, and ends up getting dumped for not letting him escalate all the way, or worse, escalating because she has feelings and goes into “gf mode” around him, only to get dumped regardless of which scenario she chose to pursue…that is being used.
Oh okay. My bad. I thought you were defending the girls who feel used.
@Saywhaat
Your parties sound like this set I used to go to in college. Its where we went when you really just wanted to get laid.
If you can’t find a party that doesn’t involve making out with some random you are doing it wrong.
@Jesus
Unfortunately, I think you have just described the majority of people.
I think it’s fair and reasonable to judge someone based on the company they kept in the past or their past behavior. Did they choose to date an asshole? Why? Were they in the habit of hooking up with sluts? Why? I think that’s much more important than whether an ex was good looking, or had an amazing body, or even if they were confident, a proxy for dominance. I’d rather my partner have a relationship history with a beautiful woman of good character than with a trashy, slutty type who cheated repeatedly on him. And the reason I would care is because it tells me something about his character.
@Susan
You didn’t consider cuckolding and its effect on male evolution.
I think women underestimate how important HB is to men.
If you get a real HB10, no woman will ever feel the same.
Theres a reason men can go slumming.
@Escoffier
As I recall, doesn’t he focus on the Greek scene? There’s the sorority chicks, and there’s her roommate Beverly, who wants to be a sorority chick. Wolfe is only describing that portion of the student body (20%) that’s doing all the hooking up. Charlotte is indeed an outlier in the book, but I believe her story occurs regularly in a less dramatic form. For example, many freshmen girls don’t know that going away for a frat weekend formal implies tacit agreement to have sex.
Lokland, no one goes to those parties intending to hook up. They go to have a good time with friends, and to be open to the opportunity that someone cute that they haven’t met before will be there.
Herb, why would you tell your niece that she is ugly?
Again, we are talking about a girl (in my original example) who is NOT fat. (And, even if she were overweight, I am not sure it is the place of the uncle to tell her that). There is not much she can do about, say, an asymmetrical face and an unattractive body shape.
@Escoffier
And you don’t think guys do this? Did you ever read Roosh’s story about rawdogging another blogger (by name) on a bus in DC? Not to mention the field reports that regularly pop up on all these PUA sites. And the white board in every frat house with a chart listing sex acts on one axis and all the girls they know on the other. Or – here’s a good one – the 80% of amateur sex video that pops up online without the woman’s knowledge?
Sue,
That’s sad. That would mean that by my standards, the majority of people aren’t relationship material. And if that represents the majority, then you have to figure that a decent amount of the remaining minority would have had LTRs with at least some of those people. So, yea, I guess most people aren’t relationship material by my standards.
Me too.
True, I’m sure there are some good looking people with natural confidence and amazing bodies who have good character, some depth, etc… Yet, I think such people are sighted about as often as the chupacabra.
Susan, the frat scene is part of the focus but not the whole focus. There are also the basketball and lacrosse groupies. Presumably the other athletes have groupies but they are not depicted. Then you have the general run of freshmen who seem mostly into the scene. Then you have lots of other girls who want to be part of the scene but can’t generate male interest. “The trolls” and “the Lounge Committee”, remember them? When one of the latter (Charlotte) generates interest from a hot guy they all become insanely envious.
Overall, Wolfe depicts a lot of “feral females” (I believe that was Dalrock’s term). Girls on the hunt. E.g., the way he describes the main library. Now, this may well be overdrawn. I hope it is.
Anyway, what he describes goes well beyond the Greek scene though the frats were the epicenter.
@Ramble
“Honey, I love you but no matter what you do men are going to see you as a 4 at best. You can have a perfect personalty but the odds of a man approaching you are pretty much zero. You are better off preparing for a life alone than believing that one day the guy who sees the real you and doesn’t care about your looks will come along. Even if he does exist there are more girls like you than guys like me so the odds are against you.”
As if it is my place as her uncle, is it worse for me to step out of place than to let her pine away believing in Santa year after year despite no presents under the tree?
Herb,
I get what you are saying. In my last comment, I gave an example of how alpha male, asshole or whatever, who approach women randomly. Men like these on many occasions have approached me and what most of them have in common is that they do not give a shit about the outcome. If I go for it fine or if I don’t fine, so what, he will just move on to another chick and just keep doing the same thing until he gets a taker. And yeah, sometimes the women are rude when rejecting them. But, to most of them, it is just a numbers game. Most of them did not attend PUA seminars, boot camps, or whatever. They don’t think they just act therefore, they don’t have time to contemplate whether or not a woman is going to reject them.
The more you approach the easier it becomes and it helps to detach yourself from the outcome. Moreover, if a woman is rude when rejecting you, so what, she doesn’t know you personally and you’re in a social atmosphere (bar, club and so on) where that is happening to others guys because that is what happens in those places all night.
I also want to add that you don’t have to become some rude obnoxious guy when approaching women. Like I said, it is a numbers game; the more you it the more it becomes just like breathing.
This is just my view of the situation.
So, you see my avatar as a contradiction. LOL! How do you know he is not a beta male or a good guy? His being good-looking automatically makes him an alpha?
re: Fratboys
Susan,
You had some experience with frats and frat boys when you were in school, did you see that kind of stuff back then. I knew quite a few guys in frats, and some of them were real dicks, but, shit, I never saw anything like that.
Susan, no, I didn’t know about any of that. Though I will say (gingerly) that for a girl to get to that point where a guy can make something like that public (which I agree, is pretty low), she must first have willingly engaged in something rather sordid herself. Whereas a mere approach is nothing of the sort. Moreover, we have here some women complaining that men don’t approach more. I don’t see men here complaining that women don’t accede to sex tapes more.
The point is, there is something anti-tautological about complaining that betas don’t approach more. If they approached more, they wouldn’t be betas, or if they weren’t betas, they would approach more. Further, the “remedy” to the extent that one exists is for betas to learn game and transform themselves (to the extent possible) into alphas. Is that really what Liz wants? Sounds like she wants betas to remain betas (I guess because she doesn’t want the risk or the drama of an alpha) but become confident and approach her without any trepidation because overt betatuide is unattracive. I.e., have cake + eat it.
JM – “That’s sad. That would mean that by my standards, the majority of people aren’t relationship material.”
LOL man, welcome to my world.
I should add that if a woman’s dated men like that in the past, but changed since, then I could overlook it, but dishing about how hot a guy like that is would make my blood run cold. She’d be attracted to the enemy as far as I’m concerned.
@Liza
Or he eventually decides to quit engaging in a sunk cost fallacy. At some point he’ll conclude it’s not worth playing.
And women on this thread are blaming him then telling him to pity the girl who go no attention not because she went through what she did but because she never got in the game.
That’s my problem. Want to tell men to man up and try one more time (after all, it’s only rejection) yet say “poor baby” about the girls who, as Susan put it “She’s the beta female – going to classes, has some girlfriends from the dorm, is mostly invisible to guys, or at least feels that way. Never gets singled out or invited out by the opposite sex. ”
Why isn’t she asked why she never approached men? Why is her being invisible the fault of the beta guys who were at least out trying and thus somehow at fault for not getting attention.
@Susan re: wanting the low ground
Because maybe if women got that they could understand why at 30 we don’t want girls who couldn’t be bothered to even come out at 21 saying they always wanted us.
Really, you did…could have fooled me.
It just seems like more feminist bs: lonely men are at fault for not being desirable to women they did approach and they’re also at fault for women who are lonely even though the women never got out there.
Then again, between the fact that everything the manosphere says about women is, according to female commentators, untrue we actually didn’t get rejected, our beta traits are more desirable than alpha traits, and apparently had tons of female attention and just now have Ros provided false consciousness.
Lokland and Ted are right…women say men have no feelings or emotions so it must be true.
@Susan
So
1. Men do it to other men, so men can’t be hurt by it
2. Men do it to women, so men can’t be hurt by it.
Are you willing to tell me the women that happens to aren’t hurt by it?
@Escoffier
The hookup scene generally is focused on Greeks and athletes. The women are usually comprised of groupies and sorority girls. In the years since I have read CS, I have been convinced that it is representative of those subcultures within universities. Duke did its own internal study and concluded that only 10% of its student body was actively and regularly participating in hookup culture.
The description is not overdrawn, but one should not extrapolate to the whole student body.
@Herb
For the love of God don’t say that to your niece. It’s not your place to tell her there’s no Santa, and besides, maybe a male 4 will come along and snap her up.
@Herb
I know eh.
Its our fault they can’t get a date, its our fault we can’t get a date, its our fault they had sex with a random stranger, if its us we’re a cad, if its not we’re an ass for not sweeping her off her feet before it happened.
Essentially, you gooo grl and your penis makes you subhuman.
Ohh Lisa, I have an actual written record of what nears 2000 approaches over 4-5 years. Your right, uber effective. Not so good for the emotions.
What? Most women are attracted to the enemy and there’s no Santa?
Wow, this day just keeps getting better.
@Ramble
No, I never saw anything like that. I think there’s been a large deterioration in college culture in the 30+ years since I went. In fact, back in the late 70s we still had assortative mating, and people paired off pretty efficiently without much fuss. ONSs were something we heard about in novels, but never indulged in ourselves. Being a slut back then made on a social pariah. I recall one sorority had a reputation for being slutty, and that was for having a large number of girls who had sex at all, even in relationships. I was in a relationship 9 months before having sex.
Susan, the specific part that seemed overdrawn to me was that Wolfe makes out the girls to be almost more predatory than the boys. They are always described as on the prowl in one way or another whereas the boys usually are not. The library scene really struck me as maybe a bit much.
I agree that on the male side, the hook-up scene is focused on frats and athletes but Wolfe shows that the females interested in those males outnumber the boys by a significant margin.
He also describes a real feeling of longing, regret and “being left out” by the freshman girls who don’t enter the scene. Charlotte, Mimi and Bettina all want to be a part of it on some level. The only girl Wolfe shows who has genuine disinterest (loathing, really) is the leftist lesbian Camille. That brings up an interesting point which is not explored because the book ends. What about those freshman girls’ remaining three years? Do they ever get over that feeling, WITHOUT succumbing to hook-up culture, and manage to enjoy their time?
Beyond that, he shows that those most into the scene are indeed miserable. Beverly is so miserable, and Charlotte witnesses her misery often, that whenever Charlotte envies her (which is often), I want to shake her and say “Look at the WRECK you are envying!” Beverly is not the only one in the book. Nicole is another one.
@Susan
Take it from a 4, when it comes to an end, we wish someone had told us. It would spare us a ton of heart ache.
Plus, I told her a male 4 might, but let’s be honest. In the world after assortive mating, much like the one before it, the bottom 60% of men won’t find mates (remember, the same literature you rely on shows historically only 40% of men had offspring). That’s why assortive mating is so important to maintaining civilization. It keeps the majority of men invested instead of not giving a shit.
If you heard my inner monologue on bad days you’d know why large numbers of men who never have children is a bad thing. On good days we don’t care if the whole thing burns. On bad days we’re ready to help…after all, we’ve got nothing to lose and would at least have a little revenge.
China will learn this hard in the coming decades. The US will get a milder version, but it’s coming.
Herb,
“Or he eventually decides to quit engaging in a sunk cost fallacy. At some point he’ll conclude it’s not worth playing.”
As I said, they keep going until they get a taker, there is no concluding because they aren’t living in their heads. Do you get my point?
“And women on this thread are blaming him then telling him to pity the girl who go no attention not because she went through what she did but because she never got in the game.”
I did say that beta guys often make the decision to sit quietly on the sidelines and they also start resorting to blaming women for not approaching them for sex and relationships.
“Why isn’t she asked why she never approached men? Why is her being invisible the fault of the beta guys who were at least out trying and thus somehow at fault for not getting attention.”
I have a friend like this who complains about men looking through especially hot men. Meanwhile, she is overweight and does not take good care of her appearance but is often mad at hot men for overlooking her. She expects me to cheer her on and validate her in this. But all she gets from me is silence or “why don’t you come with to the gym tomorrow”. Her response is always, “working out is not my thing”. Absolutely, ridiculous.
Also, traditionally men are the ones who do the initiating and I don’t think this has changed for the most part. Women aren’t expected to pursue men and I know the argument will be that women are liberated. Therefore, they should take some of the pressure off men but this just another cope out, in my opinion. I have only heard this line of thinking from beta males.
Susan, now that you made me reminisce, at my school, the girls in the really prestigious sororities (DG, Tri-delt, KKG) were not sluts and would have been really appalled to have reputations as sluts. They wanted, and mostly got, high status boyfriends.
The frats were zoos of course but the sororities were really orderly places with live-in … I don’t remember what they were called … den mothers? No, not that, but they were like chaperones. You really couldn’t get away with being a slut and be in a top sorority. They would kick you out and make up some excuse.
@Liza
A cope out?
God, that is classic lazy feminism…”I’m liberated so you better treat me like an equal but I expect to also be treated like a princess”.
I thought the woman who said that to my face was a flake at best but now I respect her for at least being honest. Most women have the same attitude, but won’t own it.
Either women are liberated and need to get in the game and ask men out and pay for dates or they’re delicate flowers that need men to do things and can stay at home, make babies, and generally STFU.
What that can’t do, because in the long run it just won’t happen, is claim to be equals when the goodies are divied up and claim to be “just girls” when the effing gravel needs to be shoveled.
Or course you’ve only heard it from beta males because they’re the ones who are expected to bear all the risk but share the reward.
You know, bankers don’t like new regulations that eat in their ability to make huge profits and shove losses off to the tax payer. Should they complain that taxpayers asking for the regulations are just coping out because you don’t hear bankers asking for them?
The manosphere should take note that if they want to crow about not wifing up a slut due to the biological double-standard, then they should accept the other half of that double-standard, which is taking the initiative to approach. You can’t have it both ways.
Jesus Christ, I feel like Abbot!
@Saywhaat
I’ll agree with that.
@Susan,
“Beta guys can either go after those women, whom they have no reason to resent, or compete for the ones who have been promiscuous in the past.”
I went to STEM Central University, where most of the women fell into this “beta female” territory. Lots of us beta guys tried going after these women, since they were our classmates, and it kind of made sense to look for a partner in our milieu first. Didn’t quite work, for the same reason that “beta” women had the same hypergamy as most other women. Now, STEM women tended to be longer range thinking, so you didn’t see as many slut it out (thought there were a few), but they tended to be more of “if I can’t have my alpha, I just won’t date”. It also helped that career and studies made it easier to justify that as “I don’t have time for a boyfriend” (beta boyfriend that is).
That tended to change once they’d been out of college for a few years, but by then, their age peer group of men start having other options…
@SayWhaat
And if women want to slut it up then they need to learn to STFU or approach men.
I don’t see a whole lot of articles in the Atlanta, NY Magazine, or the Dallas Morning News about “Where have all the virgins gone”. I see a lot of “Where have all the good men gone.” articles though.
Nor can you find me claiming I want a virgin are even a low number. Hell, I can prove just by who I married I didn’t even require thin (I do now though, because I won’t be another fat chick’s consolation prize to be discarded when she finally loses weight, but I don’t tell other men not to date fat women).
My problem in not trusting women not to trade up has nothing to do with them being sluts, but with the fact women seem to no longer value commitment regardless of why they say in surveys. When we were in counseling the ex accused me of only staying because I was obligated, or as our counselor told her to phrase commitment…apparently I was a bad man for having that, which I did until over two years after she just moved out and I finally filed for divorce.
@ExNewYorker
I’ll concur my experience was much the same.
Most girls didn’t want to date guys in the same agre range (or the betas). There were not many sluts either but they just were not interested.
Teaching, nurses and business women were awesome however.
@Escoffier
Here’s a question for you – do you think Charlotte Simmons was a victim of Hoyt Thorpe? Or should she have known he was a cad? Who is responsible for the way she was treated?
“If you heard my inner monologue on bad days you’d know why large numbers of men who never have children is a bad thing. On good days we don’t care if the whole thing burns. On bad days we’re ready to help…after all, we’ve got nothing to lose and would at least have a little revenge.”
Herb my Internet friend, you speak the truth here. There have been times in the last 18 years that I would have been ready to help tear down Western civilization if it wasn’t for my children. And, I have to admit, if I knew how to do it and NOT hurt them in the process, I would have been looking for people to help. Hell as it stands now if the right person with the right beliefs started a grass roots revolution in the U.S. I might just join them. I’m not opposed to treason if the cause is just. After all, we are a country founded by traitors, so in a way it is wholly American.
They respected you.
“Like” is the currency of Girls.
“Respect” is the currency of Guys.
I know that now but it was still baffling I remember that they used to mock my lack of sexual partners all the time the running joke was that when I finally have a lover he will need a chisel and some of them didn’t knew I was still a virgin they assumed it was so long that it grew back. But then out of the blue in separate occasions one told me that I was doing the right thing waiting for marriage or commitment before having sex and other told me that he hoped that his daughter grew up to be like me. I think I was in shock for a week after that.
I hate to see a longterm marriage break-up. You say they are still friends. Did the husband want to break up as well?
I only have her on my Facebook don’t know the husband well. She never mentions that it was a mutual agreement she talks about herself and her choice only so my guess is not. Also she is already talking about two prospects she has one that is pursuing her, so of course she doesn’t want him and other that is more aloof so of course she wants him more so my guess is that if she is ready to date so fast she was the one that wanting out, YMMV.
Now before I feel I have to use an opposite example, I’m also friends with one of my husband’s young coworkers he is not cute, he is not in shape at all he is kind fat, he likes nerdy pursuits, he is sweet and his sense of humor is pretty self deprecating all on all as beta as it comes and he has a really cute girlfriend (she looks like Mike C’s girlfriend) that seems to treat him very nice so I don’t think all is lost of course this is a girlfriend let’s see if they move on as wife and how she goes from there still beta guys might not be as hopeless, YMMV.
Herb, I’m not defending women who want to champion their right to casual sex. In fact, my advice to them would be the same. Though I’m pretty sure the sluts are already approaching men. They just aren’t approaching “you”. Nor are they reading this blog, so I really don’t know why you guys constantly feel the need to rant about it.
@SayWhaat
Because we keeping hearing the target audience of this blog is the 80% of college women who never had a bf and maybe they might get the picture that if they joined the game there are plenty of guys out there trying and getting shot down that might appreciate them. It’s our fight against pluralistic ignorance.
Also, the other target market is those same women right out of college about the time those beta men who did try either give up or go over to the Ros (who I don’t even read…I think I’ve read maybe three or four posts by Roissy when he came up in The Weekly Standard and I’ve never read the other two that I remember) in hopes that they will get out there and ask men out.
tldr; In hopes that beta girls will leave their rooms and be where the beta guys are dying in droves trying to get dates before the beta guys give up.
@ExNewYorker
I’m curious about dating and mating for betas after college. I know your story, but how would you say it played out for most of your STEM classmates? Did most of them get married? To whom? Age difference? Were they pursued later by women who had in fact ridden the carousel? Did they marry women they might have dated in college had they been acquainted?
@SayWhaat
One addendum…for all my complaints about the ex, I’ll give her this. Despite her weight she didn’t wallflower. She was out in the world mixing it up and making friends and being social.
That’s how I heard her yell, “I do the rock myself” after the Time Warp one Friday, which is why I hugged her and I told her I loved her saying it, which is how she told a friend in the cast she wanted me wrapped up in bow (which got communicated to me as “dude, you could get some”) and thus we met.
She wasn’t “poor me, I can’t get a date” even though she add (by her own admission) accepted her weight would mean she’d never get one. But she still got out there and was social.
Got her me and I introduced her to the world where all the men that came after (and during sadly) are from.
Herb,
I did not intend for this to turn into some debate about feminism and that beta males should man-up. However, wanting women to initate dates then puts the onus on them and takes it off men like yourself who are afraid of being rejected. This is really the issue here; betas and their fear of being rejected by women due to their lack of confidence in themselves and their social skills.
And I meant to write: cop out.
@Liza:
I got what you wrote.
What I object to is your assumption that we want women to shoulder all the risk we never have.
I shouldered it from the moment I discovered girls. I’ve shoulder it to this day although anymore after a round of rejections the space between attempts gets longer.
However, when I hear women who never have complain they don’t have a boyfriend I want to scream at them to ask a guy out. Or at least get where guys are asking women out.
Ben Stein, of Ferris Bueller fame, has a great book called Bunkhouse Logic. In it he talks about the American success fantasy where the local actress dreams of being a Hollywood star and the great director’s car breaks down in her town and he discovers her. He then talks about how it’s bunk and how she needs to go to NY and get in all the cattlecalls if she wants a shot.
Same for women who want a bf. They need to hear your logic a lot more than a lot of beta guys who have gone out there and been shot down.
Why is it beta women don’t ask men out or put themselves out in front of men trying to meet women? Are they afraid of rejection? Why is their fear a more valid excuse to sit out than a man’s fear?
Liza – “This is really the issue here; betas and their fear of being rejected by women due to their lack of confidence in themselves and their social skills.”
Here is a question for you. How exactly do you think those betas got that way? I mean, its easy to point a finger and claim that it is their fear that holds them back, and that is pretty damn true. But, WHY are they afraid?
You see, many men feel like women don’t care about that, and frankly it is disheartening at best. If women want betas to suddenly become something they can be attracted to, wouldn’t it make sense for them to figure out why they became so unattractive? Biologically speaking, it doesn’t make sense that SO many guys should be unattractive, I mean their father/sperm-donor managed to get laid at least once, so why are they so invisible?
All the guys here are trying to do is point out over and over WHY this isn’t as simple as teaching beta dudes some game. And as it stands, I believe that “game” evolved as a way to cope with exactly the environment that caused so many men to become unattractive to most women. So, by suggesting that beta guys “man up”, “learn game”, or any of the other commonly dispensed advice, you are actually telling them to beat the thing that put them down. But, I will wager that most beta guys don’t know what put them down. Do you?
I am not sure a higher compliment can be given.
Susan, I put most if not all of the blame on Charlotte. I think Wolfe does too. That’s not to say that I have any sympathy for Hoyt. I think he is a dirtbag whereas I like Charlotte and I have sympathy for her. (Dalrock bait!)
Charlotte knew Hoyt was a cad. She just deluded herself into thinking she could “tame” him. Her interior monologues often have her thinking things like “I have him trained like a dog, I can control him.” She is star-struck and also sucked in by his good looks, by the envy of her peers, and by the glamour of the scene. She knows that Adam is better for her and more decent but she feels no attraction for him. She knows that Hoyt is wrong for her but nonetheless feels intensly attracted to him. Charlotte was specifically warned (by Beverly) that going away for the weekend implied sex but she went anyway on the assumption that she had it all under control. And of course she gets massively drunk, also under her control. Now, her lack of experience with booze didn’t help. However, none of it was forced on her.
One interesting point is that Charlotte does arrive at Dupont defenseless. She avoided the hook-up culture in HS even though the cool kids were having sex in part because of strong parental pressure. But that pressure is not there on a daily basis at Dupont. Her mother had a zero tolerance attitude about pre-marital sex and would not discuss the issue further in any way. Charlotte felt that strongly but not intellectually. There was no reason behind it that resonated with her hence it was not strong enough to overcome her natural desires, awakened by Hoyt. I think this is Wolfe’s way of showing that simplistic abstinance teaching is not enough. Not that abstinence is wrong or that teaching abstinance is wrong but that insistence without reason is not enough. If anyone is smart enough to understand a reasoned argument against hook-ups and pre-marital sex, it’s Charlotte but nobody ever spells one out for her.
The Charlotte we get at the end has stabilized but she is a lesser Charlotte than the one who arrived at Dupont. And not because she is no longer “pure” but because she has given over part of her soul to a rotten culture, rather than fight it or stand above it. The Charlotte who so impressed Mr. Starling in the beginnig is better than the Charlotte in the stands of the Buster Bowl at the end. I take Wolfe’s message to be, had Charlotte been able to resist the worst of Dupont the way she resisted the worst of Allegheney High, she would be a better person. So it’s an indictment of Dupont but also a lament about her well-meaning but inadequate upbringing.
@Herb
Just give it up.
Men don’t have emotions. We feel no pain and shall shoulder all risk.
Fine, but if I risk all I’m going for HB9.8 or above because frankly most women are not worth the risk involved in approaching nowadays.
For all the beta women who find that problematic. Too bad suck it up.
Liza, sounds like you don’t want betas anyway, so what do you care if we are wallflowers?
@Huh?
Yeah, you nailed it. Thats essentially the problem.
I have no doubt the invisibility runs both directions. The betas of both sexes want only the alphas of the other sex.
@Lokland
Nah, I’ll just save my pain tolerating time for the tri season
First spin class with the Atlanta Tri Club tonight, so if I die have a HUS virtual wake for me or something…Liza can talk about how I died because I just didn’t bike hard enough or something and you can come back with “that’s right, men feel no pain in their legs”
Although given swimming is my strong event I wish I could do the bike portion with a handcrank bike and just use my legs on the run.
@Herb
You do triathalons?
Thats so fucking awesome.
Ted,
Of course, I do not know how beta males came to be the way they are. However, I do not believe that they were born that way. No more than alpha males were born to be the way they are. I believe these are learned character traits by the way of environment and nurture. Therefore, they are not hardwired then they can be unlearned, right?
More of this is hard-wired than learned. That’s not to say that DNA = destiny but overcoming it is hard. Most will never try, of those that do, probably more will fail than succeed.
“Liza, sounds like you don’t want betas anyway, so what do you care if we are wallflowers?”
Ha! I knew this was coming and here it is.
god, I am chatty today.
Sue: “No, I’m talking about the girl who didn’t go to parties and make out with randoms in school. She’s the beta female – going to classes, has some girlfriends from the dorm, is mostly invisible to guys, or at least feels that way. Never gets singled out or invited out by the opposite sex.”
Ah, I see the disconnect. In the past, you’ve mostly talked about women who hook up/FWB/whatever, yet still have “never gone a date”, as if this is the most common thing. You rarely talk about women who *don’t* mess around and don’t have dates.
How many of women really fall into this second category, though? Other than SayWhaat? Because most of the women here giddily remind us (often with faux annoyance) of how hot they are (or were) and how often they get hit on.
SayWhaat: “I will probably have a giant chip on my shoulder because every guy will be just another dipshit who rejected me because of my virginity — especially if he doesn’t reject me this time.”
You still seem have that chip.
As for “nuclear” rejections being overstated – remember, I got outed as a virgin twice IN PUBLIC. So I’m going to double up your virgin shaming and raise you nuclear cockblock.
“The manosphere should take note that if they want to crow about not wifing up a slut due to the biological double-standard, then they should accept the other half of that double-standard, which is taking the initiative to approach.”
I agree, but they already do. The vast majority of Game authors agree men MUST approach, because that is what works. Really, is there are manosphere blog article somewhere that says “Women should approach men!” somewhere that I haven’t seen?
@Lokland
Not yet, but this will be my year.
The year I did the aqualon I was banded from biking by the doc (blood thinners made head trauma very risky…USA Triathlon even listed the one I was on by name as a “don’t compete” drug).
So I’ve run, I’ve swam, and I’ve swam/run, but swim/bike/run this will be my first year.
The goal is Ironman Moo (Wisconsin) in 2016, just in time to turn 50.
Why is it beta women don’t ask men out or put themselves out in front of men trying to meet women? Are they afraid of rejection? Why is their fear a more valid excuse to sit out than a man’s fear?
This is what I did when I noticed that only cads and married men approached me and the cute shy guys didn’t after changing many things about myself I took the initiative. I messaged my husband first in Sciconnect for example and I won the prize. I think is right and women should take some initiative I know that men supposedly don’t like this and consider women P&D or easy but we never mention that this are the type of men that already have tons of women throwing themselves at them the cute nerdy shy guy would no typically think “A girl finds me attractive! I finally have a chance of P&D someone!” I think he will more likely try to give you the better chance he can to get to know you better and from them maybe L’amour!, YMMV.
I am not sure a higher compliment can be given.
That is how I took still it came out of nowhere and from a totally unexpected source. Although at least in one case I knew I passed a very unsavory test with a married guy that chased me around so who knows maybe they were expecting me to fail and that is what brought it up? I’m babbling at this point mysteries are always interesting to me.
@Herb
So you are an athlete! Neat! Good luck with your goal. Let us know how it goes.
Because most of the women here giddily remind us (often with faux annoyance) of how hot they are (or were) and how often they get hit on.
I don’t I mentioned that I spent ten years with no kissing, touching or any kind of contact from males I’m not ashamed of had being a loser. Happens to be the best of us obviously.
@Herb
Damn thats incredible.
Gooud luck and def. tell us how it goes.
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