In the comment thread for Recognizing the Real Relationship Deal, readers got into a discussion about whether men like a little spirit, feistiness or pushback from their women. There was an interesting array of responses – some guys enjoy the dynamic of some resistance in a relationship, and may even get bored without it. Other guys have zero interest in being with a woman who makes things “difficult.” Reader Dogsquat said something that I’ve been thinking about the last few days.
Nobody wants a puppy that follows you around all day. Nobody likes a bitch who’s “always right, even when I’m not” either.
There is a good balance to be found in girls with a mission outside of their relationship.
In the past I’ve said that when you want a relationship, you have to pursue that goal like it’s your job. Thinking about it more, I don’t think relationship status is the right goal. It’s not an objective with measurable, incremental steps, so it’s impossible to gauge whether you’re any closer to your goal from one month or year to the next. So many factors affect the outcome, some of which are out of your control. Your age, your social environment, your work environment, even the economy can have a large effect.
Of course, there are several factors that are within your direct control, and that’s where you should focus your strategy. What are your expectations? Are you selecting the most relationship-worthy men? Do you take the initiative to actively communicate your interest to guys you like, via flirting or attentiveness? All of this is an important part of paving the way to a meaningful relationship, but your results will be only as good as you are.
What do you have to offer? If you want a man to commit to you, you must be someone who is worthy of commitment. If he takes himself off the market, he is sacrificing the potential (or reality) of sexual variety. The harder you work on becoming an attractive and interesting person of good character, the better your chances of getting an excellent man to commit to you.
Be Attractive
You were born with a set of physical traits. That’s your basic canvas, and there is much you can do to brighten and enhance your appearance. Female beauty is really the array of fertility cues that men seek in a mate. They signal a woman’s reproductive capacity. A female mate’s attractiveness also has the potential to increase a male’s status among other males. According to evolutionary psychologists, here is what men look for when evaluating a woman’s attractiveness:
- Youth (2.5 years younger is the age difference most preferred by males.)
- Full lips
- Clear, smooth skin
- Clear eyes
- Lustrous hair (much easier to assess when hair is long)
- Good muscle tone
- Body type: This varies by culture to some extent, but the ratio of waist size to hip size is one preference that is invariant. Healthy, reproductive women have a ratio between .67 and .80. The ratio is also an accurate indication of long-term health status.
There are also behavioral cues to youth and health that males prefer:
- Bouncy, youthful gait
- Animated facial expression
- High energy level
Together, these traits comprise the ingredients of male standards for female beauty. Makeup, grooming and clothing are all designed to enhance male perception of these traits. Clownish, excessive makeup or immodest clothing detract from the male perception that a woman is a good long-term partner. Use only as much enhancement as you need to maximize your natural attributes.
Be a Person of Good Character
First and foremost, when seeking a long-term partner, be aware of the prevalence and immutability of the sexual double standard:
With the concealed ovulation of humans, men who married benefited by having greater reassurance of paternity. Before marrying men would need to feel assured that his wife would remain sexually faithful. Two preferences in a mate that could predict her faithfulness were premarital chastity and the quest for postmarital sexual loyalty. For this reason, “faithfulness and sexual loyalty” is the number one desirability trait (of 67) that American men prioritize for commitment. (Buss, 1994)
In other words, don’t be a slut. It dramatically reduces the number of guys who will consider you relationship material, much less marriage material.
In addition, all of us seek partners who are companionable. Here are the traits males generally seek in females when contemplating commitment (in no particular order):
- Charm
- Athleticism
- Education
- Generosity
- Honesty
- Independence
- Kindness
- Intellectuality
- Loyalty
- Sense of humor
- Sociability
- Wealth
- Responsibility
- Spontaneity
- Cooperativeness
- Emotional stability
Please note that the following traits are not on the list:
- Hard to get
- Narcissism
- Vanity
- Unreliability
- Unpredictability
- Loves to shop
- Spendthrift
- Greed
- Impatience
- Inspires jealousy
- Sarcastic
- Volatile
- Fickle
- Boastful
- Alcoholic
- Attention seeker
- Reality show addict
Know and Develop Your Purpose(s) in Life
This is something that is often overlooked. It speaks to Dogsquat’s comment about women who have a mission outside their relationship. You may be super passionate about one thing. If you are, you’re lucky. I always have had a bunch of different things I wanted to do and explore, which led to a lot of dabbling and perhaps less achievement. That doesn’t matter. It’s not about achievement in the world – men don’t care much about that when selecting a mate. (Of course, you might, which is fine, just know that it is not a male attraction cue.)
What’s important is how you feel about yourself, and whether that opinion is justified, or just narcissism. If you are truly worthy of your own respect, others will share it too.
We live in a time when Americans are raised to work extremely long hours, take minimal time off and juggle the responsibilities of work and family. It’s easy to lose one’s sense of purpose and growth, and with it all the curiosity that makes you a person who’s open to learning and engaging with the world around you.
I’m guilty of this myself. I used to be a real news junkie. I read several newspapers, always listened to NPR in the car, always watched CNN at the gym, and sat down for the evening news before starting dinner each night. Around a year ago, feeling pressured for time, I decided to give it up. No more news. I listened to books on tape in the car and at the gym. I took to having my morning coffee while checking blog comments. I delayed starting dinner till 7, working through the extra hour.
For quite a while, I could get by in conversations with my husband, friends and acquaintances, just going on the base of knowledge I’d already built up. Increasingly, I needed to use my husband as my source of news – rather than discuss things with him, I needed for him to tell me what was happening in the world. Finally, I became ignorant about almost everything.
Alito…Obamacare….June decision, What?
Trayvon Martin, Who?
I now find myself almost completely unable to converse intelligently about what’s happening in the world. During family dinners I am relegated to silence. My kids ask if anything is wrong. How could I let this happen? I’m boring!
This is just one small example, and easy to remedy – I can probably get up to speed in a couple of weeks of reading the paper. But it’s an illustration of how one can become a total dullard just by stopping paying attention and closing oneself off.
To arouse someone’s interest for the long haul, you need to be an interesting person. Do things. Learn stuff. Get out and meet new people. Have a mission in life.
1. Maximize your physical appeal.
2. Develop good character traits.
3. Pursue your passions.
Do these three things like they’re your job, because if you want to marry and have a family, they are.
Source: The Evolution of Desire: Strategies of Human Mating, David M. Buss, 1994.
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Straightforward and candid. It’s especially helpful that it’s framed in a “become a better you” mindset.
Good list, Susan.
Don’t forget that men value emotional connection, femininity and a little vulnerability. I believe this was being discussed in another conversation, but a small bit of co-dependence is good for marriage.
I believe this was being discussed in another conversation, but a small bit of co-dependence is good for marriage.
Woohooo that make us four. Co-dependence FTW!
Let me add one to the “undesirable trait” list – being over-competitive. Wanting to win is fine. Pouting because you lost/playing for blood is not.
@Hope
Good point. Just to be clear, the list is David Buss’, not mine. It’s the female equivalent of the list I posted earlier about what women seek in a long-term mate.
Women can treat all men nicely, even to those they are not interested. My female cousin treats everyone nice. No wonder everyone loves her. It doesn’t hurt that she is extremely attractive. She doesn’t make you feel like a nobody. I noticed that plain women tend to have personalities that are most unpleasant. They have a chip on their shoulder. They feel defensive. They don’t engage, yet they have pitty parties and don’t realize how foul they are. To unattractive women, you need to work on your personalities. Don’t be ugly on the inside to match your outside.
I like your lists. I would hesitate to add education, independence and intellectuality to the list of traits that attract men towards commitment. These three can lead to pride in a woman reducing her charm and amiability.
Education and intellectuality imply college education that typically inculcates leftist leanings and turns most women into entitlement princesses. How about replacing it with intelligent? It implies the ability to use one’s mind without regurgitating college and media talking points.
As for independence if a woman is seeking a man’s commitment, then she is admitting that she no longer wants to go it alone which implies that she does not want to be independent anymore. For a man’s part, if he is offering commitment, that is, offering to share his resources with her, and she continues to want to be considered independent, well, there seems a contradiction here. I think you may be wanting to imply a trait that speaks to strength, so how about replacing independence with patience?
As for pursuing one’s passions, if the passions align with the man’s then it could work provided there are no feelings of competitiveness. If not, then it can very easily pull the budding relationship apart. It is probably better to develop a passion for something that he is passionate about once in a relationship. Now it can act as glue and accelerator.
Susan, I am honored.
I’m also wondering what it feels like to quote a guy named “Dogsquat” in an article that will be read by many thousands of people.
This is a great list Susan.
On a side note, I used to be a news junkie as well. Always following politics, even volunteering back in high school and college. About a year or so again I realized watching the Nightly News was depressing me. I live in NYC and most of the hour is dedicated to tragedies, murders, scandals, scams, etc. I stopped watching and found my quality of life has improved. I do kind of use family and friends are “news sources” but in the Era of Facebook it’s easy to keep in the loop concerning major stories. I don’t miss politics at all. The way I see it the Mayor’s race affects myself my life way more than the latest squabble between republicans and democrats in Congress..
I confess there was a moment of hesitation, but what the hell.
@Vain Yogi
In that case, it’s pride that is the problem. That would be a good addition to the “what men don’t like” list (which is the only one I made up). Vanity comes close.
Why do you say that? I think young people are more idealistic and tend to be liberal in general. (See Winston Churchill quote.) I do think many women are entitlement princesses, but I’ve never considered college one of the causes.
There are many forms of independence. As someone who’s been married for 27 years, I would describe myself as an independent thinker, for example. I am capable of caring for myself and supporting myself if necessary. I can survive without a man, though I don’t prefer it.
Why would my passions need to align with a man’s? I can see a problem if something I was passionate about was objectionable to my husband – that would be a compatibility issue. But my husband has passions that don’t align with mine, e.g. American history, and I have passions that don’t align with his, e.g. 19th c. British literature. If we did share a passion, I can’t imagine why we would have to compete. Even if we were aiming for the Senior Olympics, we wouldn’t be in direct competition.
Loyalty. That’s #1 if a girl wants to be relationship material. It’s so hard to find that I suspect the desire to inculcate this trait in one’s wife is half of the basis for relationship game (the other half being more and better sex). I know more than a few guys who have simply decided that women are not naturally loyal, or even capable of loyalty, so they don’t bother to worry about it. Needless to say, those guys don’t date any one girl for a long time.
And when I say loyalty, I mean the real kind. The kind where you’re on his side even when you know he’s wrong – even when HE knows he’s wrong. The kind that is not conditional on whether he’s the best option in the world – where Johnny Depp could hit on you in a bar, and you’d hang on your boyfriend’s arm to indicate that you’re taken.
Obviously, getting that loyal too quickly is psychotic, but you have to figure out a way to show that you have the potential for that sort of loyalty to be built up. Loyalty is the anti-hypergamy.
Odds – “Loyalty is the anti-hypergamy.”
I’d wear that on a t-shirt if I thought Just one person would get it.
@Susan
Like it all.
One question, whats a spendthrift? I’ve never heard that expression.
@OTC
+1
Odds, that’s not bad.
But the older I get the more I desire to be respected, especially by those on whom I rely. Respect is very hard to show, I understand, and it’s easily lost. So little reminders from my wife that show she still has some respect for what I do, what I say and who I am are treasures.
It goes without saying that those shows of respect are easier to come by when you have respect for others in return.
@Lokland
Spendthrift: A person who spends money in an extravagant, irresponsible way.
Purpose in life is very important and we, should set our goals so that we know how to run our life and we have a purpose in this world…
@Susan
Okay, now I’ll concur 100%. I originally thought it meant the exact opposite of that.
but a small bit of co-dependence is good for marriage.
Co-dependence or inter-dependence?
To me, this describes someone who is “bubbly”. I am not nor will I ever be “bubbly”. I find, the only time I am animated in facial expression (and I hold the gold for facial expression) is when Im around people who I like. The only time I have high energy level, is when Im around people I like. I compartmentalize alot, so its literally day and night between people who are close to me and people who are stranger. Im sure initially I give off a very standoffish vibe.
One of the things that never ceases to amaze me is how women pork up as they get older. I have known very few women who can’t stand to lose at least 20 lbs, and many a lot more. Of course most men fall into that category as well, but I couldn’t care less – all that means to me is less competition for the attractive women out there.
Too many women want to shove that potato in their mouth, more than they want a man in… “there life” ( I would have put something else there but let’s just go with that.)
Losing that extra lard is the single best thing a woman can to do increase her appearance and attractiveness, of course dressing well, good hygiene, etc… (and ladies – I have enough hair on my body for the both of us, so leave it on your head and get rid of it pretty much everywhere else although sometimes a trim goes a long way in other areas).
Then learn the art of flirting – it’s a lost art among women today – other than the very young who do it naturally – emulate them, and you’ll have a lot fuller calendar.
Or, keep doing what you are – you know how well that’s working for you…
These are the only ones applicable to me. I still stand by sarcasm damnit. I love people who love it. Im only impatient when something is taking longer than it should. I don’t play “hard to get” at all, but I know I am hard to get. It takes a lot of time to really get to know me, and you have to be the right person to even be let in.
It’s a sad state of affairs when grown women have to be taught that the secret to attracting a man is to be…….*gasp!*…….. feminine.
Jonny, your genetic line is doomed when decent sex-bots become available, isn’t it?
@Jonny
Lol, what? Thats the silliest thing I’ve ever read. What are you 12?
@Charm: Would it make you feel better if I say I am?
@Jonny
Actually, it would. Saying you were an adult would scare the shit out of me.
Ignore Johnny. Granted, given the choice between a know-it-all (or worse, a thinks-she-knows-it-all) and an ignoramus, I’ll go with the latter, but the dumb and uniformed act still gets old really fast. Just be humble with your knowledge.
If it helps, imagine the guy who seemingly knows everything, but since he doesn’t brag, you don’t even know it until the situation where it’s useful comes up – like the guy who knows engines, but you don’t learn until you have car trouble. How much cooler is that guy than the one who frequently mentions his skills? For once, the standard runs the same both ways.
I’ve been reading this site for a while, and I’m finally making a comment.
As a male, I certainly look for these traits (well I don’t care as much about Charm, Wealth, or Spontaneity, but that’s just a minor preference).
However, while these traits SHOULD be desirable, are you sure that most men actually look for these traits?
Most women look for exciting alpha men rather than stable beta men (even for long term relationships), and I’m wondering wether a similar thing is the case with men and women?
And as an INTJ woman, I’d take the stable beta guy every time.
My guess is that there are more women like me than you would think.
Man or woman, this is the coolest thing in the damn world. I love people who are super humble about what they know. I take this approach to life. I never divulge skill that I’ve perfected until its needed. I find that people are always very pleasantly surprised when they learn something new about you and are quite impressed. There is this kid of my facebook who has to keep us informed about all the great and amazing things he is doing with his life. Needless to say, I hate him.
@INTJ
Yaaaaaaay, another NTJ. Hi
And I agree, I think a lot of people don’t look for all of those things. Most people generally have a preference on the ones that really matter. No one person possesses all of them so its important to cherry pick the few that you can’t do without. I agree with you one Charm, Wealth and spontaneity. I actually like men that are a big asocial and dont care to impress other people. I also like men who plan things out before executing said plan and surprising me. Too much spontaneity is unattractive and destructive and as long as you have enough money to live and have a decent savings…its all good.
a bit asocial*
@Also intj
I think its an NTJ trait to be very stable thus boring. All the wild things that other people do just seem stupid to me. And “alphas” are generally laughable.
Man or woman, this is the coolest thing in the damn world. I love people who are super humble about what they know.
Likewise is always nice to discover something new once in a while and I also think is better to let things come out naturally and if you have a lot of skills is better if someone else points it out than you prancing your own drum as soon as the opportunity arrives, YMMV.
@Charm
And “alphas” are generally laughable.
I’m an INTP; DH is an INTJ. We love to watch people and smirk at “alphas.”
Vox Day says that the only men who intimidate alphas are sigmas because sigmas don’t kowtow. Much like the noble honey badger, they don’t give a damn. I’ve seen my DH (and now my younger son) destroy these guys with a smile.
“Here are the traits males generally seek in females when contemplating commitment”
Men have their lists, but they are general outlines, not set in stone. A negative can invalidate the whole list. Its funny since women might have red flags that they constantly downplay until it couldn’t be ignored anymore. Men will quickly relegate a mismatch by putting her in the friendzone without telling her. She becomes a booty call if he is lucky or he just doesn’t call anymore.
Thus, women should do the right things upfront and not be so difficult.
Here is my critique of the list.
Charm – Sensual to me, friendly to everyone else, accomodating to parents.
Athleticism – Not Fat.
Education – You’re finished? If not, I’m not funding your future education.
Generosity – Only to me. Not to stray cats.
Honesty – Always.
Independence – Except you depend on me.
Kindness – Always.
Intellectuality – Not smart ass.
Loyalty – Always
Sense of humor – Not sarcastic, Never inappropriate, Never while drunk.
Sociability – Don’t go too far or out of your way to strangers, and especially to cats.
Wealth – Let’s hope you will not ask Daddy to bail us out.
Responsibility – To us first.
Spontaneity – On occassion. Know when to say NO.
Cooperativeness – See Spontaneity.
Emotional stability – Not psycho. Will not seek other men or tell everything to girlfriends.
@Charm
“I think its an NTJ trait to be very stable thus boring. All the wild things that other people do just seem stupid to me.”
No argument here, from a male INTJ. I suppose “stable thus boring” would describe some of my days. It suits me however.
@J
Oh yea, this is what I love about NTJ men. They give not one fuck about what you think about them. Generally “alphas” do. They want to be AMOG, and get the attention from the best girls and have everyone fawning all over them. I actually prefer Vox’s sigma to he alpha. Nothing is more attractive than a man who knows who he is and doesn’t care if he is validated or accepted by other people.
Once an “alpha” realizes you aren’t amusing or impressed by them, they generally lose all power over you. Whenever I read about all these guys bragging about how all the girls at the place were all over them and how they can “fuck anyone they want” I lol on the inside because I know, there is that one woman who laughed at them and refused to give them the time of day, or that one guy who let them be the AMOG because he knew his ego depended on it. I think alpha is about wanting to be accepted while sigma isn’t.
I tend to equate stable with dependable, not boring.
@Chris
Me too. But thing is, I don’t see it as boring. Give me a couple drinks and some good people for conversation, and I can have a great time. Beats a bar, club or party any day. Give me a new topic to learn about or a new skill to develop and I’ll have a good old time. Give me one person who understand who I am fully and who loves me deeply and Ill be happy for the rest of my life. I’d never even notice other men. You know NTJs have a habit of marrying other NTJs or at least other NTs? Over the last few days I’ve been doing some reading and apparently, being extremely loyal and commitment oriented is something that the majority of NTJs do since they don’t like to invest any of their time and/or energy into just anybody. I laughed because my time is the most important thing to me, so if Im spending it on you, you’re probably a huge deal.
Oh yea. If you don’t have my back, and you’re not there when I need you, we could NEVER date. I don’t see how women keep pining for men who ignore them half the time or don’t show up when they say they will, or are unreliable and will break commitments easily. How the hell is being dependable and stable a fucking beta trait? Thats the best human trait.
@Charm
“Give me a couple drinks and some good people for conversation, and I can have a great time. Beats a bar, club or party any day. Give me a new topic to learn about or a new skill to develop and I’ll have a good old time.”
Okay, I know my sisters aren’t NTs; I’m the only INTJ in my family. But you sound like you could be another sister!
“You know NTJs have a habit of marrying other NTJs or at least other NTs? Over the last few days I’ve been doing some reading and apparently, being extremely loyal and commitment oriented is something that the majority of NTJs do since they don’t like to invest any of their time and/or energy into just anybody.”
Not wanting to invest time/energy into anything they don’t like is very much an across-the-board NTJ trait. It’s gotten me into a few awkward situations in fact, since I see no value in frivolous social interactions which don’t have any meaningful purpose.
Which is why the NTJ is so hard to find.
“Which is why the NTJ is so hard to find.
Huh? They are the ones standing in the corner.
Tell me about it. Sheesh. Ive met 2 ENTPs and an INTP but never an INTJ or another ENTJ. I actually don’t prefer perceivers. I like cold hard fast NTJ logic. Plus they generally understand the judgmental-ness.
@Chris
Well at least you’ve got someone people in your life you get along with.
I used to actually put my time into people thinking I’d get something out of it, but then I realized that most people are just selfish asshole and have no problem taking what it is that I am offering. Since then I’ve maintained my selectivity with friends and people I spend my time on. Not one second will be wasted on anyone else.
@Charm, you don’t sound so charming.
Just because you might need a dependable INTJ doesn’t mean he can’t be charmed. A guy can be reliable, but if he doesn’t know you, he has no obligation to be there for you.
It sounds to me like this is an issue of complaining (again) about not having good men out there when the women are so charmless (unattractive). INTJ dating INTJ. Sounds like an antisocial gathering. So funny if not so sad.
@also intj, Charm, Chris_in_CA
Wow! It never ceases to amaze me how much other NTJs think like I do.
Reliability and loyalty are probably the single most important character trait I’m looking for.
@Jonny
The problem is that we aren’t the only ones standing in the corner. There’s also people like ISFPs and INFPs who often have emotional stability issues (I risk overgeneralizing here, but I’m just tired of seeing all these fickle-minded people around me).
Interestingly, you’d rarely find me standing in the corner because I wouldn’t bother going to some event where I’d have to stand in a corner.
Susan, reading that story of how you stopped paying attention to politics, I thought you were going to end the story with “it was hard work, but I finally quit my news addiction and became happier person.”
I have purposely tried to reduce my news intake. In particular, I have cut out the instant news: twitter, websites, television, radio. I rely more on The Economist and Wikipedia, because these sources tend to provide a broader context instead of focusing on the up-to-the-minute details. By definition, the values of news decays rapidly, so in the long run you’re better off reading a history book than a newspaper.
Charm: I took the test and got an INTJ, though I don’t put much stock in the results.
However I do feel you on the need to find a logical partner.
INTJ here as well. It’s not that I’m antisocial, but I am a very reserved person. You would find me standing in the corner at a young age, but once into adulthood, I’ve adapted behavior that would make me either blend into the crowd or in the right scenario, take the lead.
I prefer to be among like-minded people as well. I don’t get this ENFP-INTJ matching going on. Opposites may attract, but leave me out of it.
To me, this describes someone who is “bubbly”. I am not nor will I ever be “bubbly”. I find, the only time I am animated in facial expression (and I hold the gold for facial expression) is when Im around people who I like. The only time I have high energy level, is when Im around people I like. I compartmentalize alot, so its literally day and night between people who are close to me and people who are stranger. Im sure initially I give off a very standoffish vibe.
Then obviously those three attributes must not be what men find attractive, if they mean that your special snowflake self is not the mostest prettiest princess on the planet. Seriously, who on Earth is supposed to care if you are bubbly or not? I think you can safely add “solipsistic” to your list of attributes.
These are the only ones applicable to me. I still stand by sarcasm damnit. I love people who love it. Im only impatient when something is taking longer than it should. I don’t play “hard to get” at all, but I know I am hard to get. It takes a lot of time to really get to know me, and you have to be the right person to even be let in.
Again, who do you think cares? You present such an annoyingly self-obsessed image over the Internet that it’s hard to imagine what circle of hell it must be like having to deal with you in person on a daily basis. And as for sarcasm, only immature and juvenile men think it is witty or attractive. It rapidly becomes predictable and tiresome. I know people who absolutely love puns too. That’s not attractive either. It’s incredibly annoying.
And by the way, I’m INTJ. So, if you like hard, cold, and judgmental logic, you might want to rethink your solipsistic approach, because based on what you’ve displayed here, no INTJ would want to put up with your level of narcissism. INTJs generally like to discuss ideas, not people, and especially not people whose only serious interest is themselves. I’m not saying that is the case with you, but it is certainly the image you convey.
Liked the list and the way how a woman should look pretty. It is easy for attractive gals to seduce men but for those who really work hard to be most pretty and beautiful, these tips are of great use. I gonna tell about this to my sis who is always look forward to be beautiful and attractive.
Susan,
This blog is becoming more and more a feminist echo chamber. Perhaps you should put on your big girl panties and have a complete conversational spectrum again? The comment threads have become quite painful to read.
@INTJ
This list of traits is from the field of evolutionary psychology. This is what they have determined men are “wired” to look for. As always, human beings are on a spectrum, and there are an infinite number of combinations that may appeal to one man for long-term mating. It’s not the case that every man will prioritize every trait or that women will strike out if they can’t check every box on the list.
@GudEnuf
Except that in my life, people tend to discuss news events with some enthusiasm. If I know nothing about it, I’m relegated to bystander status. I don’t plan to go all-in and be obsessive the way I was before. But I feel stupid having lost any sense of what’s going on in the world around me. Some of it is actually important.
@Jason
Huh? OK, that’s 162 votes for extreme manosphere echo chamber, 1 vote for feminist echo chamber. Thanks for the feedback.
Susan, is this the first time that you have focused on this? I mean, I know that you have made tons of references to things like, “Don’t waste the pretty”, but, I don’t remember you ever being so explicit in saying, “Be as pretty as you can be”.
Perky Tits?
Flat Belly?
Tight Ass?
None of these made the list?
@Ramble
I didn’t write the list. It’s the product of evo psych research. I put the source at the bottom, I guess no one is noticing it. I think your priorities would be included under body type and muscle tone.
I have written about this before, actually, but it’s been a while. Seemed like a good time to drive the point home again.
I put the source at the bottom …
OK. I didn’t know if that was for everything you listed, or just the things that preceded the source.
Charm – “These are the only ones applicable to me. I still stand by sarcasm damnit. I love people who love it. Im only impatient when something is taking longer than it should. I don’t play “hard to get” at all, but I know I am hard to get. It takes a lot of time to really get to know me, and you have to be the right person to even be let in.”
Seriously, you and I are like long lost twins separated at birth, and by a few decades, and different sexes…
Stick to the sarcasm, my SO loves it, although she often calls me a jerk for it as well.
Of course you don’t play hard to get, you don’t have to. I know that *I* am a real PITA to “win over”, and to be honest anytime someone tries to do so, it turns me away from them anyway…
“I think its an NTJ trait to be very stable thus boring. All the wild things that other people do just seem stupid to me. And “alphas” are generally laughable.”
EXACTLY! And wow, we have more INTJ’s here? I think we have quite a good collection of them now.
“ I laughed because my time is the most important thing to me, so if Im spending it on you, you’re probably a huge deal.”
YES THIS! This is exactly why I don’t bother with most people. Most of the time I end up disappointed and a bit miffed I wasted my time. But so many people will blab at anyone, they don’t realize that if I’m spending ANY time on them at all, they’ve cleared about 10 miles of hurdles with me already.
J – “Vox Day says that the only men who intimidate alphas are sigmas because sigmas don’t kowtow.”
I have NO clue what a ‘sigma’ is, but IME assholes definitely don’t like it when someone doesn’t back down from their huffing and puffing. It takes a LOT to impress me, and maybe even more to intimidate me, but I generally don’t push back on assholean behavior. Instead, I usually just stand my ground and wait for them to treat me better before I’ll even acknowledge them. Or, if they REALLY insist on blowing hot air my way, I simply tell them that I won’t deal with someone that can’t treat me with a minimum level of respect. It’s funny, because it either sends them away steaming, or completely deflates their sails. Either way, I don’t have to deal with assholean behavior.
Chris – “Not wanting to invest time/energy into anything they don’t like is very much an across-the-board NTJ trait. It’s gotten me into a few awkward situations in fact, since I see no value in frivolous social interactions which don’t have any meaningful purpose”
Heh, well it is this reason that I graduated HS with a pretty piss-poor GPA. I was bored with school by 10th grade, and by my senior year I decided I didn’t give a shit at all, and it showed. As far as people go? I know I’ve pissed people off by blowing them off, not paying attention, etc. But to be honest, I never lost a single night of sleep over it. I give everyone I meet the same chance, but very few make it past introductory chit-chat. I guess I’m an elitist.
Johnny – “Just because you might need a dependable INTJ doesn’t mean he can’t be charmed. A guy can be reliable, but if he doesn’t know you, he has no obligation to be there for you.”
I am an INTJ guy, and I can definitely be charmed, but I would argue that the way to “charm” and NTJ isn’t the usual old “bubbly/happy/emotional” woman stuff. If a woman wants to charm me she has to show that she is: smart, loyal, funny, demure, honorable, introspective (at least enough to know something about herself other than what movies she likes), and logical at least a little bit. I don’t expect women to be all about the logic, but at least be able to follow a point to it’s conclusion and understand how we arrived. (Sorry if that comes off as sexist, but IME logic isn’t a natural female trait. *shrug*)
I tend to view the standard “bubbly” woman as flighty and annoying most of the time. I like people that are more serious for lack of a better term. I like people that take life seriously most of the time, but can cut it loose a little in the right environment.
VD – “And as for sarcasm, only immature and juvenile men think it is witty or attractive. It rapidly becomes predictable and tiresome. I know people who absolutely love puns too. That’s not attractive either. It’s incredibly annoying.”
Welp, then I suppose I am incredibly annoying, predictable, and tiresome. Sweet! That means less people bothering me.
“And by the way, I’m INTJ. So, if you like hard, cold, and judgmental logic, you might want to rethink your solipsistic approach, because based on what you’ve displayed here, no INTJ would want to put up with your level of narcissism. INTJs generally like to discuss ideas, not people, and especially not people whose only serious interest is themselves. I’m not saying that is the case with you, but it is certainly the image you convey.”
Vox, I believe Charm is rather young, and if I’m “reading” her correctly, has only just recently learned about INTJ’s and their traits. I only learned about it in the last 8 months myself, so we have been going back and forth essentially “comparing notes” to see how many of the things we think are “abnormal” are actually very normal for our personality type. I don’t see anything here that makes me believe she is narcissistic, I just think she is genuinely relieved to find out she isn’t a freak, which I will say was a relief for me. I didn’t care so much that I might be a freak, but at least now I know that I’m just a minority. But, you are certainly entitled to your views of her posts. I will continue to engage here with her, because I think she’s a good egg, and IMO there just aren’t that many out there. And for the record, I’d sit down and have a beer with her any day of the week, provided she was anywhere close to the rusted buckled of the steel belt where I live.
Or, perhaps I’m just as narcissistic and can’t see the forest for the trees. If that’s the case, I made it 41 years like this, it isn’t likely to change anytime soon.
@VD
Im having a hard time understanding how stating that I’m not bubbly and that I enjoy sarcasm is in the least bit offensive. I don’t think Im a special snowflake at all, but being “bubbly” isn’t who I am and I fully acknowledge it. I certainly understand that a lot of men like bubbly women. I’ve never stated that men didn’t find it attractive. Do I understand it? Sure I understand the appeal, but because I’m not male and I don’t date women, I guess I’ll never fully understand it. Then again, I don’t understand the appeal of “alpha” as the ‘sphere describes.
As for logic, I generally use it more often than not. I don’t use it all the time because I am still human and not a robot, but I appreciate it more than personal feelings which are highly subjective.
Thanks Ted.
The only reason that I’ve ever talked about and/or described myself online is because we can’t interact face to face so a lot of my personality traits aren’t as evident. In person, I never talk about myself. Ever. I actually have a pretty hard time doing so because I’d rather allow the person Im around to make up their own mind about me.
Re sarcasm
Do people use sarcasm on just anyone? I certainly don’t. Its only ever used with people I’m close with who won’t be offended by it. I’ve never been sarcastic with someone I don’t know well or I’m not close to. When people do use it in mixed company, even I find it inappropriate and rude. Also, I’ve never thought it was “witty”, but well placed sarcasm is quite amusing. Maybe I’m over playing how often I use sarcasm. Its not like every other statement out of my mouth is sarcastic. Do I enjoy it from time to time? Yes.
i’d have to agree with this. i might have to link this to my next post since this be of some relevence.
good post Tia.
re: Sarcasm
Ted, the fact that your SO likes your sarcastic side may not be great evidence that a girl should be more sarcastic. What attracts guys to girls does not necessarily work in the opposite direction.
Charm,
Just because you may like sarcasm (again, so does Ted’s significant other), does not mean that guys will be attracted to it. Personally, I don’t mind it, but only in small doses. I think it is very easy for a girl to make herself fairly unattractive via sarcasm.
If you need any evidence, just visit Jezebel. Snark and Sarcasm is almost religion in that place.
Charm,
Persistent sarcasm is NOT even remotely attractive in a female. Now, a witty, sarcastic comment sprinkled in every now and then, if actually funny, can be quite endearing, but anything more than that is almost always seen as annoying and masculine.
INTJ,
Men looking for a committed LTR/marriage DO look and want these traits, but most will settle for a much lesser version because they don’t live in or understand a world of female abundance. A lot of men, in spite of some very unattractive traits in their women, gladly accept the tradeoff for a steady supply of sex, because they don’t know with who or when they might find more sexual opportunity.
If you are talking about men who are not LTR minded though, a lot of these traits would be still be nice in a woman, but most are unnecessary.
@Juliette
“Télémètres pas cher : où les trouver” c’est in lien bizarre!
est-ce que vous avez un blog particulaire?
je dois pratiquer mon francais (ca c’est clair). Un blog comme HUS en francais? vraiment pratique et interressant pour moi.
Je pense qu’il-y-a des differances entre les gens francais et les anglos (chui anglais). Donc on doit poser la question, pourqoui avez vous visitez HUS?
cordialement
@Charm
VD called you a narcissist. Look over your comment at 61 and locate a sentence that doesn’t include some permutation of the word I.
@VD
Bubbly is wonderful to be around, coming from another INTJ.
Sarcasm can go either way depending on the usage. Sparingly and in a fun way, good. Negative conotation, bad. Too much, bad.
@Susan
it must be my borderline personality*, but I feel I should point out that I hinted for personality type survey of readers only a few days ago…now we’re getting there by the back door.
*INTJ / INTP
Charm – “Maybe I’m over playing how often I use sarcasm. Its not like every other statement out of my mouth is sarcastic. Do I enjoy it from time to time? Yes.”
Yeah, I get the impression that everyone else thinks you are a sarcastic bitch LOL. I get it, because I think we both use sarcasm the same way, which is normally a smart-assed remark said quietly to the people directly around me about something going on in our general area. I tend to think of it as ‘color commentary’, which is to say that I generally focus it on what other people around me are doing. Yes, that means I am sometimes making fun of other people. Keep in mind I don’t like most “people” and as arrogant as it is I tend to view then as sheep, so no I don’t feel bad about it. Frankly, I always imagined people making fun of my weirdness in similar ways, except most of them probably don’t have the intelligence to correctly be sarcastic, so its probably more along the lines of “that dude is wearing socks with sandals huh huh” (yes,I used to wear sandals with socks. Sue me…)
Jason – “Persistent sarcasm is NOT even remotely attractive in a female. Now, a witty, sarcastic comment sprinkled in every now and then, if actually funny, can be quite endearing, but anything more than that is almost always seen as annoying and masculine.”
I agree, and I think this is how Charm rolls. It’s how I roll in fact. I don’t walk around blasting out sarcastic comments to everyone. I mostly drop them into private conversations with people I am intimately involved with, whether friend, family, or SO. Yes, it is mean spirited, but it is only one of the many reasons I’ll be going to hell, so I don’t sweat it.
Ramble – “Ted, the fact that your SO likes your sarcastic side may not be great evidence that a girl should be more sarcastic. What attracts guys to girls does not necessarily work in the opposite direction.”
This is entirely true. But, I’m getting the impression that Charm is going to be looking for a similarly minded guy. To me, these little sarcastic moments actually bring me closer to my SO, because it fosters a feeling of us against the world. It may sound odd, but I feel more like we are on the same team and everyone else is on the other when we share our private moments like this. Again, it may be mean spirited, but I really don’t care. The people that are the focus of my comments rarely ever know about them, and we get a good chuckle. Again, this is a minor infraction when viewed against many of my other “sins”.
‘zut alors’
“avez vous visité”
VDM
@Jason
Refer to my last post, I think were on the same page here. If anyone overuses sarcasm it just becomes unattractive. Man or woman. When I hear people say they hate sarcasm, I take it to mean that they dislike period. They don’t want to hear it at all. It pissed them off when people use it. Its just like swearing. I don’t hate it, and I do swear, but you’re every other word out my mouth isn’t a curse word and when people overuse it, it becomes unattractive.
Im also having a hard time thinking that a certain style of speaking or humor is inherently masculine or feminine. I think perception varies too greatly from person to person for it to just be defined as “masculine”
if every other word*
hmm…
Susan,
That first comment from ‘Jason’ was not from the 24yo one, as I’m sure you could tell based on the email address, but to avoid ambiguity for other posters I’m going to go by Jason773 from now on.
@Ramble
“If you need any evidence, just visit Jezebel. Snark and Sarcasm is almost religion in that place.”
no frayed knot, I think that sarcasm, if properly done, requires a bit of wit and humour. Jezebel majors in bitchy (other words exist). Feminism and humour…a rare mixture indeed.
What always bugged me the most was flakiness, hot-cold, hard-to-get and all that nonsense. I don’t know if girls do this as a concious strategy or instinctively, I suspect it is the latter, but whenever I encountered it I walked.
Ted, again, you are making a reference to the man (you) being sarcastic and the girl enjoying it. I am not saying that you, never, ever, enjoy her sarcasm. I am sure that you do.
But, in general, I believe that sarcasm is most often enjoyed in the one direction. And, that girls should be careful about employing it.
Escoffier – “I don’t know if girls do this as a concious strategy or instinctively, I suspect it is the latter, but whenever I encountered it I walked.”
I think it tends to manifest in women that are simply rather indecisive AND impulsive, as if they can’t make up their mind what they want to do from moment to moment, but they are bored and easily distracted, hence the random flaking.
And I’m with you in so much that I can’t stand that type of behavior.
Bold Markup Fail!
Fuck!
Let’s try this again:
Ramble – “But, in general, I believe that sarcasm is most often enjoyed in the one direction. And, that girls should be careful about employing it.”
Fair enough. I guess her options are tone it down, or look for her special unicorn of a man that enjoys it. I will agree that for most men, sarcasm is probably a turn-off, but I would also add that it is probably because most women simply don’t do it correctly, that is, like a man.
Just1,
I actually agree with you, but, I would still bet dollars to donuts that many, many girls over at Jezebel think that they ARE being humorous (within their snark and sarcasm).
Again, this is why I am saying that the measuring of female sarcasm is important. Although, at this point, I feel like I have spent WAY too much time on this one small point.
@Ramble; agree, agree and agree
@Just1X
Oh you charmer you. I like your Francais game.
@Just1X
My hesitation is that I know little of MB myself. Do you think it would be useful or interesting just to send readers to a survey and then invite them back to discuss? Or should I research the various types wrt relationship skills, wants, etc.? I’m willing, I’m just not sure how to proceed. I agree with you that there seems to be quite an appetite for it.
What gave it away was his attitude. I wasn’t confused for a second, but I appreciate that others may be. Jason773 sounds good to me.
For all I know, Charm does it perfectly. And, since it looks like a few have piled on her this morning, I will say, “Charm, you are probably great at doling out the sarcasm”.
But, for some others, it can be an important thing to watch out for.
Has the blog post title changed? If so, “How to keep a boyfriend” would be a better alternative. Too many fakers out there upholding a temporary mask with these virtues, only to have their bad characteristics leak through as time progresses. Nothing is stopping them from doing so.
Of course, nobody is perfect, everybody deviates from this list at some point. But with today’s culture, lying is nor frowned upon an awful lot. Pretend for a month, snag the nomination and she’s in. The danger in the long term is still present. Then again, there are ways to stress test those.
Im having a hard time understanding how stating that I’m not bubbly and that I enjoy sarcasm is in the least bit offensive. I don’t think Im a special snowflake at all, but being “bubbly” isn’t who I am and I fully acknowledge it. I certainly understand that a lot of men like bubbly women. I’ve never stated that men didn’t find it attractive. Do I understand it? Sure I understand the appeal, but because I’m not male and I don’t date women, I guess I’ll never fully understand it. Then again, I don’t understand the appeal of “alpha” as the ‘sphere describes.
You’re absolutely right. It is not in the least bit offensive. It is merely irrelevant, uninteresting, solipsistic, and annoying. I’m curious to know why you think it is of interest to anyone here, male or female, if someone by the pseudonym “Charm” is bubbly or not, and if said Charm fully acknowledges that lack of bubbliness or not. It’s to your credit that you admit you fail to understand various things about men, but one of them appears to be the male distaste for female narcissism.
As with sarcasm, narcissism is something that many – not all – women find attractive and very few men do. Are women attracted to sweet, submissive men? Not so much, just as men are not, by and large, attracted to harsh, dominant women. This is not rocket science. You can ignore it if you like and insist that men must accept you for yourself, but then, don’t be surprised if your options are more limited than you might like.
Ted, the fact that your SO likes your sarcastic side may not be great evidence that a girl should be more sarcastic. What attracts guys to girls does not necessarily work in the opposite direction.
Bingo.
I don’t see anything here that makes me believe she is narcissistic, I just think she is genuinely relieved to find out she isn’t a freak, which I will say was a relief for me. I didn’t care so much that I might be a freak, but at least now I know that I’m just a minority.
Seriously? I can only imagine that is related to the fact that you appear to believe to share her perspective that your idiosyncracies are similarly fascinating to the world and intrinsically related to the topic under discussion. Do you think the public discussion of Susan’s posts be improved or diminished if everyone else followed your lead in regarding the comments as a means of working out their various psychological issues? For example, I have a serious and disturbing issue regarding chess end games I am attempting to work out. Would it be to the benefit of everyone here if I were to produce multiple extended comments concerning this regardless of what the post was?
I don’t know you or Charm, nor do I have anything against either of you. But based on your comments, it is obvious that both of you likely have a panoply of relationship issues that largely stem from the fact that you are overly fascinated with your own navels.
@Escoffier
There is a persistent belief among young women that guys want the challenge of the chase. Even in the book “He’s Just Not That Into You,” a best seller only a few years ago, the critical concept is, “If he wants you badly enough, he’ll do a lot of work to make it happen.” I have probably been told hundreds of times in my life that “men pursue.”
If it were not already hard enough to get rid of this belief, most college women can look to the biggest womanizer on campus, and if he’s in a relationship, it’s almost certainly with a slutty psycho bitch. Jason recently addressed why (DIRTY in bed) and I’ve also discussed this with my son’s frat brothers. They like the idea of the girl who can only be tamed by them, made sweet and pliant by them, etc. Lots of other girls observe this highly visible if unusual phenomenon and conclude that hard to get and even hard to live with is the way to go.
@Susan #83
on doit essayer (one must try). I need the practice, in both senses. FYI her English is better than my French.
I think that there are differences between the French and Anglos, so I asked why she came to HUS, and why her link was to such a strange site.
Well, I guess I didn’t mind a small dose of it in the beginning. It’s true that in general guys don’t want to be chased. We might be flattered by that and gratified by the ease of it but a girl who chases is not going to get a LTR out of it. That’s a recipe for getting P&Ded.
What bugged me was, once you’ve gone on several dates and it’s clear you’re interested and she keeps up with the hot-cold, push-pull. There’s a time to turn that off and in my case, that time was pretty early.
@Susan #84
je soupcon que, I suspect that, supplying a link to the test will suffice…the post looks like it will write itself as people report results. Could be a low workload post (or could turn into a nightmare, “You INTJs always say that” / “Typical EMU* thing to say” )
*Yes, I made this up. It describes people who stick their head in the sand…or is that just ostriches?
Escoffier, speaking as a former flake, I used to go from hot to cold because the guy either set off a major red flag or did something that made him completely unattractive. For example I might have talked to a guy a lot and gotten a crush, and then found out he was also talking to another girl a lot and also being all chummy with her. I’d go from hot to cold in no time.
And at that point I’ve written it off, so the guy walking is no loss. If he was puzzled because that strategy or gameplaying should make him more attractive according to game theory, I didn’t care to explain myself, nor did I care if the guy thought I was a flake. I’m not a flake to my husband, who was also not a flake. His loyalty begets my loyalty.
Yeah, I just realized that this was a great opportunity to answer my most common search result: “why don’t I have a boyfriend?” Before women can keep one, they have to get a guy to commit. That’s where most women are having trouble.
Ha, I know
Be warned, I can understand what you’re writing.
They like the idea of the girl who can only be tamed by them, made sweet and pliant by them, etc.
Really?
God, I can’t believe this. Well, I believe you. I guess, I don’t get it.
And, I didn’t see it.
Susan, one day you will need to do TONS of research on how we actually, biologically, changed.
The combination of various hormones, including all of that phyto-estrogen (in all of the unfermented soy), I think, has had a major impact on how we have developed.
Guys being interested in these butt-kicking girls (Yes, she weighs 110 lb soaking wet. No, she can’t do a pull up, but yeah, she absolutely destroys angry, testosterone filled men who, literally, weigh twice as much as she does.), apparently wanting some bitch to act sweet only to them, ugh, I am lost.
J, I think co-dependency is just a semantic difference from inter-dependency. I’m co-dependent enough on my husband that if something were to happen to him, I would have a very, very difficult time. I don’t think that’s unhealthy. It’s just a part of seeing us as “one,” a whole union.
@Escoffier
“a girl who chases is not going to get a LTR out of it”
Not an everyday occurrance for me (I admit), but if the mutual attraction was there I’d take this as quite a compliment. I’m not a P&D merchant anyway, but I wouldn’t rule out a relationship. Depends if I thought she was the type to do it often, or whether her female defences had proven insufficient to hold off my rippling alpha charms (okay, joking here, but hopefully you get my point).
A battle of DLI must end in someone showing at least some interest or we all die celibate
Jungian archetype theory may be useful at least as a thought-starter re attractive personality features. In his book “Archetypes,” Anthony Stevens divides women into 4 basic personality types:
1)The mother…”impersonal and collective”…”instinctive and conventional”
2)The Hetaira or “love goddess”…”concerned with getting her man and relating to him at the intensely personal level rather than taking on the social roles & responsibilities implicit in being a wife & a mother.”
3)The Amazon…”independent and self-sufficient”…”comrade or competitor”…”the orientation is not toward individuals but rather tends to be impersonal & objective”
4)The Medium….”lives in close relationship with the collective unconscious…immersed in her subjective experience and speaks with the conviction of an oracle…startling their friends and relations by the power & unusual nature of their insights”
(Just ran into this book while shuffling home office space & thought I’d capture these thoughts before it goes in the box for a couple of weeks)
@Ramble
Yea, I understand a fair portion of people dislike it. I respect their right to dislike it. I’ve never tried to force it onto other people or anything, but when people state the dislike or sarcasm in absolute terms, I have to disagree. That list that Susan posted, I bet a lot of men could agree to liking, but not all men like or need everything on that list. What you might see as unattractive might not be a big deal to the next guy. I think it comes down to odds. Your odds of attracting a mate will increase if you possess certain traits. If a woman ascribes to the traditional feminine traits, I’m sure she will have no problem attracting a mate. Just like guys who adopt the “alpha” traits will be able to attract a higher number of women.
I’ve known women who possess quite a few of those less desirable traits, and a good portion of them have no problem getting into a relationship. We can debate the quality of that relationship, but they usually have mates. A woman can be nagging, jealous, clingy, high maintenance, irresponsible with money etc etc etc, but if she is deemed “very attractive”, she can get away with a lot of that crap.
I just don’t like the one size fits all attitude. Stating that I like sarcasm and am not very bubbly doesn’t mean that no one will ever like it. Maybe a lot of men won’t and I’ve been fine with that. You won’t see me trying to shame people into preferring anything other than their natural preferences.
I’ll just leave this here, re: sarcasm
@Susan #95
even ‘chui’?
I’m impressed, it’s pretty slangy. I don’t use dictionaries or translation services except for the odd word, so I end up playing somewhat fast and loose with la plus belle langue. Usually get smiled at a lot when I speak with the natives (amusement value). At least they like the English accent as much a we like the French one, for the same reasons AFAIAA.
Other slang that I liked included choette and phoque, and no, these aren’t small owl and seal respectively. Oh and ‘doigts de pied’ literally ‘foot fingers’ (toes) always makes me smile for some reason.
VD – “Do you think the public discussion of Susan’s posts be improved or diminished if everyone else followed your lead in regarding the comments as a means of working out their various psychological issues?”
I believe that anyone that has the same personality/temperament/whatever as me will definitely benefit from my perspective. Being as Charm seems to be of a like mind, I think that SHE can benefit from what I post, and if she exists then others do as well. If you think I post here solely to help Susan with her mission, then you are mistaken. I admire Susan a great deal for her mission, but I have my own agenda, and if that coincides with Susan’s that’s a bonus. But rest assured that my posts are not always directed at her, or her “target” audience. If/when that is an issue I assume Susan will tell me to knock it off, and I will. If you don’t see the value in what I post, by all means skip by everything with my name at the top. I don’t expect anyone to take my “lead” simply because I posted it, but if it causes them a moment to stop and think, even if they disagree, then I’ve served my purpose.
Helping someone isn’t always about telling them what they SHOULD be doing. Sometimes it comes by showing them other ways of doing it, and letting them pick what is best for them. If you are suggesting that my approach is 100% wrong, you are entitled to that opinion. But I can tell yo that in “real” life (that is not on some blog on the ‘net) I don’t spend any time at all looking at my naval. Well, other than when I’m in the shower…
No, full disclosure, all the slang goes right over my head. I learned French in a classroom, and never lived there.
Hope, being flakey because you suspect or know that he is going after other girls concurrently probably accounts for around 1% of female flakiness. Certainly it did in my day. Besides, I don’t know if I would even call that flakey. It would be if you kept sending mixed signals, which I think would be wrong, but if you just walked at that point, that’s not flakiness.
my two cents- so I used to be pretty heavy. I thought that if I just lost weight I would find a boyfriend just *like that*. Turns out, it doesn’t work that way. I actually have to, like, show interest and stuff. Make an effort to see them, and don’t expect them to do all the legwork and do all the “pursuing.” I tried playing “hard to get” at first, and it doesn’t work (before someone makes a comment saying that maybe I’m just an uggo, I think I can safely say that I’m not bad on the eyes, seeing as how I got checked out and approached a lot, and was the object of unrequited “love,” even when I was quite heavy. I don’t have a huge rack and never dress scantily so I’m assuming my face had something to do with it). Anyway, being nice and friendly go a long way. Being a bitch doesn’t. Sincerity is key. It’s so rare these days, and I surprise even myself when I make myself say sincere things out loud. I feel like a complete idiot saying them but the people around me lap it up.
I’m sure most girls had all this figured out ages ago (or maybe not, since Susan is writing this post), but seeing as how I am an extreme introvert and a slight social retard, learning how to talk to boys, how to talk to their friends, how to treat his boy friends vs. his girl friends, has been a trying learning experience for me. That said, I still don’t think it’s even on the same level as what men have to do when they learn game. Especially since I’m learning more about the relationships of the people around me–surprisingly often, what looked like a happy, stable couple actually turns out to be a relationship where the woman nags and dominates and the man feels cowed but still lucky to be with someone young and pretty. It’s helped me realize just how much ‘power’ young women have over men, if most of them (even good-looking, successful career-wise ‘high status’ men) will really put up with that much shit.
So why don’t I have a boyfriend yet? I wish I could figure it out. Maybe I just haven’t met the right person. But I also know that I’m not entirely comfortable with myself, and I end up self-sabotaging sometimes. So yes, be as hot as possible, but I also wouldn’t recommend going too much into “lovelysexybeauty” territory (anyone remember her blog? I still wonder if it/she was for real)–also work on your ‘inner spirit’ and being confident and at ease and happy with yourself and your life. I think being happy is really the key.
Another small thing- to get a boyfriend, you also have to.. meet men. Normally I would gravitate towards talking to women in new social situations, but now I try talking to men more. I already have enough female friends; I don’t need any more. The guys are also generally friendlier, and I’ve found it’s easier for an introvert to talk to a man one-on-one rather than your average woman (either one on one or in small groups) because there’s not as much pressure to ‘impress’ the other girls and bond and become bffl’s immediately. Though as a side note, one of the most interesting effects of losing weight is that I get checked out by (straight) women more too, and I get the feeling that they’re a lot nicer to me than they would be if I still looked like I did before.
“What gave it away was his attitude. I wasn’t confused for a second, but I appreciate that others may be. Jason773 sounds good to me.”
My attitude?
My attitude of dismay that this once was a blog where you’d listen to input from people like Yohami and Rollo, but now you have what, 12 regular commenters all parroting each other?
How about you allow a commenter to have an opinion you don’t like?
navel – damn I hate when I let auto-correct have its way…
Oh and I don’t care if one single person here finds my “idiosyncracies” are fascinating. I blame my narcissistic tendencies.
Escoffier, okay then you mean hot to cold to hot then? That’s fairly simple and common. She is interested, but not interested enough. The fact is a lot of young people are clueless and fumbling in the dark, and girls are no different. She is responding to the attractive traits in the guy but then turned off by the unattractive traits, resulting in being wishy-washy.
Also, it is partially the nature of the female reproductive cycle, which again a lot of young women are not attuned to and don’t fully realize the effects. When something was off with my husband was during the unfertile time of my cycle. When sparks flew with my husband was during the most fertile time of my cycle. I could appear cold then hot in response just because of hormones. All women deal with this; many young women are just not aware of it.
@Susan
chui – Je suis
chouette – sweeeeeet! looks like they took the English word and finagled it into a French word. Happily it’s the word for a cute animal (small owl).
phoque – well, like it sounds in English…usually on a t-shirt with a picture of a seal on it (for plausible deniability with mere and pere).
de rien
I just don’t like the one size fits all attitude.
I think that few people do, but, we tend to generalize.
Stating that I like sarcasm …
Again, there is a big difference between what a girl likes in a guy and vice versa. And, again, for all I know, you pull it off perfectly. But, in general, when some guy hears that some girl is sarcastic, red flags go off.
Sarcasm != Charming
However, it can be quite clever, when done well.
Hope, the way guys experience that (if they stop to think about it) is, She’s using me. When she has no other or better options, I am good enough. When things are looking up elsewhere, I am suddenly not good enough. Guys will persevere if they are desperate or smitten enough, or if they are just self-deluded.
In any case, I think it’s a profoundly unattractive trait in females, and even if the cause is biological, that’s no excuse not to get control of it. Figure out if you are interested and if you are, show interest. If not, politely move on. Very simple.
Perhaps this not the vibe you intended to convey, but your posts read like a defense of/excuse for female flakiness. All I can say is, I personally hate it and I think nearly all guys do as well. Take that FWIW.
Escoffier, it’s a neutral explanation, like the reason why a person might develop a cold. I’m not saying guys should accept it or like it, but I am explaining why girls do it. And it happens the other way, too. Some guys will be wishy-washy because their interest level is not high enough. Unfortunately, girls tend to be attracted to this characteristic rather than run away.
I realize how guys experience it is generally negative, but in a way it may be useful. They can identify the girls who are truly into them as opposed to merely lukewarm. They can avoid a much worse breakup later on, if they simply avoid girls who aren’t interested enough to not be flakes. The “no bullshit” post Susan made is a good illustration of a good trajectory.
Escoffier, I agree. However, like Hope said down thread, it may be more feature than bug.
Flaking sucks, but at least you know to move on.
You won’t see me trying to shame people into preferring anything other than their natural preferences.
No doubt. That would require talking about something besides yourself.
I believe that anyone that has the same personality/temperament/whatever as me will definitely benefit from my perspective. Being as Charm seems to be of a like mind, I think that SHE can benefit from what I post, and if she exists then others do as well
I very much doubt it. That would be like trying to cure obesity with forced feedings. Look, you can certainly live your life however you wish, but when someone who is generally considered to be fairly narcissistic is telling you that your behavior appears to be inordinately self-obsessed, that should give you some idea where the problem is. Learning to love yourself, warts and all, is a Disney motif, it’s not a real life solution, and it is the very last thing extreme narcissists like you and Charm need to hear.
Why athleticism? Is it because she is more likely to stay fit or is it more an element of fun? Both?
Susan..you are spot on with this post!! I was in a study group with 2 college upperclassmen girls the other night and we were studying for a social psychology exam around relationships when I asked if they read blogs. They didn’t even consider it…I was going to recommend yours. They were making textbook mistakes. I wish women realized that we want a feminine and fun woman as much as the want a dominant and faithful man
@Jason
Both Yohami and Rollo are toxic presences in coed company, as they despise women. Their comments are filled with invective, both general and personal. They’re also wrong about most things. The good news for you is that they both have blogs. You are no longer welcome here.
@Stingray
I wondered the same thing. I’ve never met a guy who demanded a woman be sports pro. Its not a bad thing but I wouldn’t consider it a bonus unless it kept her thin.
@Ramble
I think they may be the only challenge left for the guys who clean up in the hookup scene. They tire of women they refer to as Stage 5 Clingers, and they’re drawn to the cold fish. It’s not so different than the woman wanting to win over the elusive male.
Escoffier, undoubtedly it’s a turn-off to guys. Though it is not always biological due to hormones. It could be projecting one’s own preferences onto the opposite sex. Likewise, many guys also do all kinds of things that are turn-offs to girls in the misguided belief that it makes them more attractive.
Girls often act in a way that they would find attractive if a guy acts that way (push-pull, playing games, trying to act dominant, sarcastic, and competitive). Guys also often act in a way that they would find attractive if a girl acts that way (lots of eagerness, submissiveness, trying to act supplicating, nice, and sweet).
The result is, a lot of young folks end up not appearing very attractive to the opposite sex. They get some initial interest but cannot keep it, because they keep acting in an unattractive way to the opposite sex. Ignorance, as it turns out, is not always bliss.
VD – ” Learning to love yourself, warts and all, is a Disney motif, it’s not a real life solution, and it is the very last thing extreme narcissists like you and Charm need to hear.”
Yep I’m narcissistic, because I only think about, talk about, or care about myself. And you can determine this based solely on what I post on a random blog on the internet? Wow, you must be really good at reading people.
Are you sure I’m the narcissist?
@Just1X
I love those slang terms, and find it interesting how English continues to creep in.
Well it’s good to see that we men actually go for the “nice girls”.
Susan, those people sound like they’re avoidant attachment types.
http://psychology.about.com/od/loveandattraction/ss/attachmentstyle_6.htm
We should not advise girls to display cold fish behavior to catch these promiscuous player types.
VD – “but when someone who is generally considered to be fairly narcissistic is telling you that”
I missed that line in my first reading. OK so we are both narcissists. I guess maybe it takes one to know one?
I’ve never been called narcissistic before today that I know of, but I have been called an arrogant asshole many times. I’m good with it.
Alright, I think I am understanding, so, let me see:
1. Casual Sex is fairly easy nowadays.
2. However, you can’t get Casual Sex from Old Fashioned Feminine girls.
3. We (the males) want Casual Sex, so, to a degree, we avoid the Old Fashioned Girls and the Cold Fish
4. Of the sluts, the butt-kicking sluts are the hardest, and, therefore, most satisfying, to get.
Is that about right?
@Stingray
I took it to mean that athleticism signals good coordination, which is a good survival trait to pass on to offspring.
I love those slang terms, and find it interesting how English continues to creep in.
In Romania, the word for “weekend”, is “weekend”.
Also, it is becoming more common to hear some starlet in Romania to refer to “doing shopping”. As in, they just got back from Paris where they were “doing shopping”. All of the words will be in Romanian, except for the “doing shopping”.
Also here’s an interesting quiz about attachment styles:
http://psychology.about.com/library/quiz/bl-attachment-quiz.htm
I took it, and apparently I have a secure attachment style. “You feel comfotable sharing your feelings with your partner and are able to turn to your partner for support.”
@Hope
Well, I tried to discourage it by pointing out that being an annoying psycho bitch would decrease the size and quality of the pool of potential mates. I agree – it’s a way of potentially landing a player. I would sooner tell women how to get malaria.
@Ramble
I’ve only known Cold Fish who were also rather slutty. Essentially, they beat the manwhores at their own game. But honestly, I know of about 3 or 4 women in two colleges who fit this description – I don’t know how common this is.
A cold fish woman sounds to me like an avoidant type as well. It would make total sense for two avoidants to get together. Like is attracted to like, after all.
My husband and I would probably both be considered “clingers” by most mixed or avoidant people. As it turns out we’re just secure attachment types and want to form strong, intimate and trusting bonds.
Susan, I was trying to get the logic right…was it close?
btw Susan, what are your thoughts on this:
Until now I’ve only cared about academics and haven’t really been interested in girls. But now I’m 20, and I want to begin searching for a potential wife.
The problem is finding girls who are LTR material. From observing people around me and hearing stories about their relationships, I’ve noticed that it’s pretty easy for me to gauge wether a girl is into casual or very promiscuous sex or not. The hard part is judging wether she practices long term monogamy or serial monogamy. It seems like so many girls keep running through a long list of boyfriends and just are unable to try to settle down. There seem to be two types of these: first are the unstable type who have emotional issues. The second are the confident and often attractive types who know that they are attractive and practice hypergamy.
So I need to look for heuristics to find girls who are likely to settle down. What I have noticed is that such girls often tend to be introverted. Of course, some emotional girls likely to create drama also are introverted. I guess I just have to look for signs of emotional maturity in introverts. Any other things I should look for?
Now, if I find an introvert I’m interested in as a potential partner, how do I judge wether she’s also interested in me? I’d think indicators would be that she likes to converse or spend time with me, but I’ve also seen girls show such “interest” in guys who they keep in the friend-zone. It seems to especially be a major problem for intellectual guys (I’m a member of that set) that girls often like conversing with them but never consider them for a relationship. So how would I tell wether I’m viewed as a close friend or as a possible romantic interest?
Thanks for any suggestions.
Why athleticism? Is it because she is more likely to stay fit or is it more an element of fun? Both?
Because she’s more likely to stay fit. All of my male friends were favorably impressed when Spacebunny joined our gym while we were dating so that she could work out with me. One thing I’ve noticed is that none of the women in our American social circle got fat despite having between three and six children. Whereas the slender women who prided themselves on never sweating or going to the gym are all overweight now.
@Susan
it’s worse in tech, they’ve grabbed English words wholesale and converted them to frenglish / franglais:
toaster – to ‘toast’ / break something beyond repair
debugger – to debug
tester – well, you get the idea
These were common parlance
I really had only one “clinger” problem but I ran like hell.
@VD
I never expected it be interesting or relevant to anyone who didn’t care to read it. Both bubbly and sarcasm have been brought up in past threads and I was simply offering my position to those who did care to read it. If you don’t care to read it then don’t. If someone is talking about something I don’t care to hear I simply skip over the conversation.
Last time I checked, HUS was Susans blog. If she has a problem with anything that I’ve written she can take it up with me. I don’t see the point of coming here and calling someone annoying simply because you don’t like what I write. Every time you see a post by Charm, simply skip over it.
@Susan
How about suggesting, “Give any guy who doesn’t smell back and can dress himself the chance to buy you coffee before rejecting him outright due to list item #83″ or “Ask guys who appeal to you out.”
The old Zig Ziglar bit about the President of General Motors just showing up and one day winding up running the company is appropriate. If most women want a boyfriend and don’t have one the first thing, even before this list maybe, is to ask “what am I doing to meet lots of men looking for girlfriends”.
Otherwise this list could easily turn into “all dressed up with no place to go.”
That complaint aside, I can’t tell you how happy I am to see this (although I wish it was the first line and in bold
):
Everything from older women complaining about lack of good men or the need to settle all concentrate on what men need to do or aren’t doing. That all these 30+ women never stop to ask “what am I bringing to the table” is very sad.
Good for you for trying to make sure women who are 20 ask themselves that question.
INTJ, my suggestion to you is instead of letting girls keep you in the friends zone, beat the girl first to the friend zone. Having female friends around is a bit of social proof, too.
Girls tend to play it safe, but if you tell her first “let’s be friends,” it takes away most of her power. She’ll wonder why, she’ll see you as interesting and possibly a challenge, and then she will qualify herself to you because the script has been flipped on her.
Some of Susan’s old posts have girls commenting all the time, asking how to know if her good male friend has romantic feelings for her — because over time, she developed feelings for him.
Since you really will be evaluating these girls for friendship and relationship potential, you won’t be lying when you friend zone them. If you do develop romantic feelings later, don’t be afraid to pursue things, but also don’t make her a priority if she doesn’t feel the same way. Find other female friends and focus on them.
Probably the best indicator a girl is into you is that she doesn’t talk to any other guy a lot, doesn’t have any other male friends, and always makes an effort to talk to you and spend time with you. If she’s also jealous of your interactions with other females, then she’s likely interested in you as more than a friend.
Hope – “Girls tend to play it safe, but if you tell her first “let’s be friends,” it takes away most of her power. She’ll wonder why, she’ll see you as interesting and possibly a challenge, and then she will qualify herself to you because the script has been flipped on her.”
Damn that is a solid idea. And it doesn’t require them an to do or say anything differently, that isn’t requires no “game”. It does put the woman in a position where she might try to prove she is GF material simply because she was dismissed as such from the get go.
Good stuff Hope.
Ouch stupid iPad… Second sentence should read “that is it requires no game”…
All dressed up with no place to go? Susan’s taken care of the “places to go” part before:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/02/14/hookinguprealities/57-ways-to-meet-the-love-of-your-life/
She’s quite prolific.
@Ramble
I think so. The part that resonated for me was guys not wanting old fashioned girls. I think there’s some pressure, even on the beta guys, to prefer casual sex (maybe they would anyway, IDK). So they aim to score a hookup rather than go on dates and get a girlfriend. There’s a lot more social status in the former, and the latter is often viewed as a loser’s game.
@Susan
“There’s a lot more social status in the former, and the latter is often viewed as a loser’s game.”
Mostly by the woman who want boyfriends no less. Evidenced by the all the boyfriends in uni are ugly meme.
Thanks Ted, but the idea is credited to my husband. He said to me early on, “I’m not looking for a girlfriend. Most girls aren’t really girlfriend material.” I was like okay, whatever, since at the time I didn’t have romantic feelings for him. But he had already positioned himself in the more powerful seat, and there he remains today.
@Herb
Yes, it is remarkable how everything in the media revolves about women AS society; Women have a problem? => Society has a problem => What should men do to fix it / themselves?
Not enough men => men need to man up, not WHY are guys not buying the ‘be a man and suck it up’ meme anymore?
Men don’t want to commit => men need to suck it up and marry, not WHY don’t men want to get married? What might be wrong with marriage and divorce laws.
I understand why feminists put women first, but why do tard-cons and so-cons refuse to address men’s issues? (The cause of many a ruckus at the dread blogger Dalrock’s site, most recently with Darwin Catholic).
Asking her to wonder “what am I bringing to the table?” sounds like nuking the hamster. Danny from 504 and Private Man have played with that recently (amongst others).
(from that beacon of truth, wikipedia, a word for your perusal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynocentrism)
Gynocentrism (Greek, gyno-, “woman, female”) is the practice, conscious or otherwise, of placing female human beings or the feminine point of view at the center of one’s world view. The perceptions, needs, and desires of women have primacy in this system, where the female view is the reference point or lens through which matters are analysed.[1] Ideologically, gynocentrism prioritizes females hierarchically, as the overriding focus, and at the exclusion of all else. Observed in practice, the preeminence of women is seen as absolute: interpersonally, culturally, historically, politically, or in broader contexts socially (i.e. popular entertainment).
@INTJ
At 20, you’re awfully young to be searching for a wife. Since the average male doesn’t marry until his late 20s, if you found someone now you’d either be signing up for a very long dating period, or a very early marriage. The pool of women who want either is small. This is why LTRs, or serial monogamy, has become the norm. People want relationships, including sexual ones, and they don’t want to wait until they’re ready to marry. For college students, LT monogamy and serial monogamy are pretty much the same thing. I would be wary of any girl who has never been single for a period of time. Some girls audition guy friends for the boyfriend role the minute their relationship ends.
Research shows that extraversion and casual sex are linked, but it’s not a hard and fast rule. I would judge people by the way they spend their time and the company they keep. You’re looking for someone with good values. For example, rule out binge drinkers.
In terms of gauging interest, you should definitely read up on Game and get a sense of how to flirt with girls in a way that communicates sexual attraction. If you fail to escalate or act sexually interested, you’re essentially shooting yourself in the foot by placing yourself in the friend zone. So flirting should include some light touching, plenty of eye contact, and confidently suggesting (or even dictating) the next move. She can always say no, but if you start weak you probably won’t be able to recover. First impressions are pretty important.
@Hope
ljbf from the man first?
I’m not an expert in game, but I suspect that it’s a subtle neg. I also suspect that it might work as her first hamstery stirrings would be “Hey, why can’t we be more than friends? What’s wrong with me?”
I hope that you’re not espousing dark-game?
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