In the comment thread for Recognizing the Real Relationship Deal, readers got into a discussion about whether men like a little spirit, feistiness or pushback from their women. There was an interesting array of responses – some guys enjoy the dynamic of some resistance in a relationship, and may even get bored without it. Other guys have zero interest in being with a woman who makes things “difficult.” Reader Dogsquat said something that I’ve been thinking about the last few days.
Nobody wants a puppy that follows you around all day. Nobody likes a bitch who’s “always right, even when I’m not” either.
There is a good balance to be found in girls with a mission outside of their relationship.
In the past I’ve said that when you want a relationship, you have to pursue that goal like it’s your job. Thinking about it more, I don’t think relationship status is the right goal. It’s not an objective with measurable, incremental steps, so it’s impossible to gauge whether you’re any closer to your goal from one month or year to the next. So many factors affect the outcome, some of which are out of your control. Your age, your social environment, your work environment, even the economy can have a large effect.
Of course, there are several factors that are within your direct control, and that’s where you should focus your strategy. What are your expectations? Are you selecting the most relationship-worthy men? Do you take the initiative to actively communicate your interest to guys you like, via flirting or attentiveness? All of this is an important part of paving the way to a meaningful relationship, but your results will be only as good as you are.
What do you have to offer? If you want a man to commit to you, you must be someone who is worthy of commitment. If he takes himself off the market, he is sacrificing the potential (or reality) of sexual variety. The harder you work on becoming an attractive and interesting person of good character, the better your chances of getting an excellent man to commit to you.
Be Attractive
You were born with a set of physical traits. That’s your basic canvas, and there is much you can do to brighten and enhance your appearance. Female beauty is really the array of fertility cues that men seek in a mate. They signal a woman’s reproductive capacity. A female mate’s attractiveness also has the potential to increase a male’s status among other males. According to evolutionary psychologists, here is what men look for when evaluating a woman’s attractiveness:
- Youth (2.5 years younger is the age difference most preferred by males.)
- Full lips
- Clear, smooth skin
- Clear eyes
- Lustrous hair (much easier to assess when hair is long)
- Good muscle tone
- Body type: This varies by culture to some extent, but the ratio of waist size to hip size is one preference that is invariant. Healthy, reproductive women have a ratio between .67 and .80. The ratio is also an accurate indication of long-term health status.
There are also behavioral cues to youth and health that males prefer:
- Bouncy, youthful gait
- Animated facial expression
- High energy level
Together, these traits comprise the ingredients of male standards for female beauty. Makeup, grooming and clothing are all designed to enhance male perception of these traits. Clownish, excessive makeup or immodest clothing detract from the male perception that a woman is a good long-term partner. Use only as much enhancement as you need to maximize your natural attributes.
Be a Person of Good Character
First and foremost, when seeking a long-term partner, be aware of the prevalence and immutability of the sexual double standard:
With the concealed ovulation of humans, men who married benefited by having greater reassurance of paternity. Before marrying men would need to feel assured that his wife would remain sexually faithful. Two preferences in a mate that could predict her faithfulness were premarital chastity and the quest for postmarital sexual loyalty. For this reason, “faithfulness and sexual loyalty” is the number one desirability trait (of 67) that American men prioritize for commitment. (Buss, 1994)
In other words, don’t be a slut. It dramatically reduces the number of guys who will consider you relationship material, much less marriage material.
In addition, all of us seek partners who are companionable. Here are the traits males generally seek in females when contemplating commitment (in no particular order):
- Charm
- Athleticism
- Education
- Generosity
- Honesty
- Independence
- Kindness
- Intellectuality
- Loyalty
- Sense of humor
- Sociability
- Wealth
- Responsibility
- Spontaneity
- Cooperativeness
- Emotional stability
Please note that the following traits are not on the list:
- Hard to get
- Narcissism
- Vanity
- Unreliability
- Unpredictability
- Loves to shop
- Spendthrift
- Greed
- Impatience
- Inspires jealousy
- Sarcastic
- Volatile
- Fickle
- Boastful
- Alcoholic
- Attention seeker
- Reality show addict
Know and Develop Your Purpose(s) in Life
This is something that is often overlooked. It speaks to Dogsquat’s comment about women who have a mission outside their relationship. You may be super passionate about one thing. If you are, you’re lucky. I always have had a bunch of different things I wanted to do and explore, which led to a lot of dabbling and perhaps less achievement. That doesn’t matter. It’s not about achievement in the world – men don’t care much about that when selecting a mate. (Of course, you might, which is fine, just know that it is not a male attraction cue.)
What’s important is how you feel about yourself, and whether that opinion is justified, or just narcissism. If you are truly worthy of your own respect, others will share it too.
We live in a time when Americans are raised to work extremely long hours, take minimal time off and juggle the responsibilities of work and family. It’s easy to lose one’s sense of purpose and growth, and with it all the curiosity that makes you a person who’s open to learning and engaging with the world around you.
I’m guilty of this myself. I used to be a real news junkie. I read several newspapers, always listened to NPR in the car, always watched CNN at the gym, and sat down for the evening news before starting dinner each night. Around a year ago, feeling pressured for time, I decided to give it up. No more news. I listened to books on tape in the car and at the gym. I took to having my morning coffee while checking blog comments. I delayed starting dinner till 7, working through the extra hour.
For quite a while, I could get by in conversations with my husband, friends and acquaintances, just going on the base of knowledge I’d already built up. Increasingly, I needed to use my husband as my source of news – rather than discuss things with him, I needed for him to tell me what was happening in the world. Finally, I became ignorant about almost everything.
Alito…Obamacare….June decision, What?
Trayvon Martin, Who?
I now find myself almost completely unable to converse intelligently about what’s happening in the world. During family dinners I am relegated to silence. My kids ask if anything is wrong. How could I let this happen? I’m boring!
This is just one small example, and easy to remedy – I can probably get up to speed in a couple of weeks of reading the paper. But it’s an illustration of how one can become a total dullard just by stopping paying attention and closing oneself off.
To arouse someone’s interest for the long haul, you need to be an interesting person. Do things. Learn stuff. Get out and meet new people. Have a mission in life.
1. Maximize your physical appeal.
2. Develop good character traits.
3. Pursue your passions.
Do these three things like they’re your job, because if you want to marry and have a family, they are.
Source: The Evolution of Desire: Strategies of Human Mating, David M. Buss, 1994.
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Jackie & Saywhaat,
Thanks, I’m considering it.
@JM (or somebody else, maybe):
Hopefully you’ll see this before you go. A bit more advice, if I may:
Be very, very careful about unloading your mental baggage on your girlfriend.
There is a tendency in women (might be men, too, but I’ve never dated one of those) to hear stuff like this, ruminate….and make it about them.
I’m not talking shit, just pointing out a tendency people have early on in relationships. It’s natural and born of self-preservation. There is no right-or-wrong, good-or-bad about it.
When you tell someone who’s “in like/early love” something horrible you’ve been through, they’re initially going to be all supportive and huggy and coo at you. You’ll feel….whatever it is you’re gonna feel.
There are wheels-a-turning in their head, though – make no mistake. The questions will bob to the surface of their mind – “Hmm…What am I signing myself up for? Is this going to be worth it? Is this person sufficiently healed? How will this affect me in 5 or 20 years? Did this person do something I find morally reprehensible? Can I still be attracted to this person knowing XYZ?”
Sometimes, you’re going to get asked a bunch of questions. The person is gathering information to answer those questions. That process can go on a long time – years, even. Sometimes, you’ll get grilled when you don’t want to talk about it anymore – months later, maybe. Other times, you won’t even notice the subtle inquiries.
Once in awhile, unfortunately, the person will eject with no warning or explanation given. That, my friend, is the absolute worst. It will change you permanently – adds a little more scar tissue to the rest.
Again, this isn’t bad or wrong. You’re surprising the other person, in a way. It’s fair that they’d need to do some sorting of this new information. It’ll pop into their head at odd times. They’ll ask about what’s bugging them. Their feelings about what they learn may evolve over time, or change depending on mood/relationship dynamics.
You’ve done this. I’ve done it. Everybody reading this has.
It is a risk, this disclosure – make no mistake.
Now, honor and honesty dictate you disclose those aspects that might affect her. If you have commitment issues, she rates a Cliff’s Notes version of why. If you hate clowns, a short telling of the scary clown thing when you were 5 is appropriate.
My girlfriend knows not to touch me when I’m yelling and screaming in my sleep, for example. I told her I sometimes (much less frequently, these days, thank Whomever) have dreams about war shit, and I don’t want to hurt her on accident. That’s it – no more than that.
She also knows that I require some form of communication initiated by her at least once a day, even if it’s a 1 minute phone call like,”Hi [Horrible Pet Name], I’m home. I had a long day and I’m tired. See you [whenever]. Night, be safe at work.”
She knows that I’ve been cheated on, and dealt with an ex being assaulted. Her doing this helps keep my mind at ease and is part of the price-of-admission to DogsquatLand. No more information is necessary.
One day, if she really wants to know the whole story, I might tell her about the cheating thing and some other stuff. She doesn’t need to know the war shit, ever.
There’s not really an upside to disclosing the things that give me pain, in combing over them in exquisite detail with her. She’s not going to fix it. There’s no point in asking a woman who loves you to share these burdens, because she can’t. All you end up doing is making her feel pain, too.
That momentary relief, that unburdening of Ugly, doesn’t even feel that good. It’s a form of procrastination. The Ugly will still be there tomorrow, only now she feels a little of it, too. Worse, a good woman will become depressed, frustrated, and/or angry when she realizes that she cannot help you. Making a good woman who loves you feel worthless when she’s anything but is a Bad Thing.
Caveat – the only exception I can think of for matters like these is in instances where a woman has been the victim of a sexual assault. Some women gain strength from knowing they are found desirable, loved, and accepted status post assault.
Now, you ask with baited breath, who the hell can I tell this shit to? I don’t like what it’s doing to me and I need some outside perspective! If not My Love, then who?
Good question, dude. I couldn’t have asked it any better my own self.
The answer is your therapist.
It’s counter-intuitive, but I have found the mere act of paying somebody to smear The Ugly on is way better than doing it to people I love. The context is different. I don’t have to wonder if they’re handling it okay. I don’t have to tone down the language, or edit around someone else’s traumas. I don’t worry that they’ll tell their friend, who’ll tell somebody else, who’ll tell my mom, etc.
If they react badly to The Ugly I can fire them and find somebody else. I don’t have to keep Game in mind, or make it up to them, or anything else. It’s human contact, but it’s in a professional context.
Some things about therapists while I’m bashing away on this here keyboard:
Some of them are fucking stupid. Some of them are doing it because they’re so screwed up themselves that they can’t do anything else. Some will not be good at dealing with your specific set of issues. Some will have personalities that don’t mesh with yours.
That’s fine – fire ‘em and make an appointment with somebody else.
Some good advice that was given to me is give a brainshrinker 3 sessions as a trial run. If it’s not working out, if you’re still spinning your wheels at that point, move on. Expect this to happen at least twice.
Once you do find a good fit, don’t expect it to be easy. It is not. It is work, man. It sucks. It’s not like getting a shot of morphine, or even like physical therapy. It’s weird. Weird and hard. I can’t even describe it, actually.
Two cents, free of charge.
Good luck, Jesus. I’ll be sending some positive vibes to The Great Magnet on your behalf.
@Jackie
What a lovely and welcome surprise to see you here. Thank you for your support and encouragement to Jesus. Have a wonderful Easter, and we look forward to seeing you again soon!
Yay! That sounds perfect. xoxo
Who the hell are these guys who only want anal? It makes me think that there would be some deep rooted homosexuality there. Yea, it’s fun every now and again, but vaginal sex just feels better imo.
Susan- wait a sec… So when you read these books, you are not placing yourself in the story, but you are still turned on by the sex scenes?…
I’m with JM, that is not how I define “fantasizing” at all. That sounds more like watching a TV. For real, most people DON’T place themselves in the stories they read? Guess I can add this to the many ways I am an odd bird then, because the reason I enjoy reading fiction is because I get into the story. If I get a few chapters in and I can’t buy into the story, I bail on the book and move on. What I think you are saying is you read books like watching a movie, which is an entirely different thing.
I’ve honestly never given a thought to wondering if other people read books the same way, even though I’ve discussed plenty of books with people.
I need to think on this a bit. I would be much less upset by my SO reading this stupid book if she wasn’t really into it in the sense of putting herself IN the story. For me the issue is, I think as is JM’s, that I would be hurt and feel used if my SO were to read it, put herself in the main females place, got hot from it, and then came to me for the real deal. In that case, I would simply feel like a proxy dick that she didn’t really want but needed to “get off”. Yes, I know it would be more than that since we have a relationship, but at the core of it THAT is my issue with romance novels.
So perhaps I need to have a discussion about how she reads? Lol. Sounds stupid but until today I kinda assumed everyone read the way I do…
On second thought, I shouldn’t be surprised by this. I listen to many odd types of music because I “get into” them by listening to the layers, paying close attention to effects like reverb and delay applied to the instruments, the chord movements and key changes, in some cases literally hundreds of details. When my SO first “caught” me listening to dance/trance music, she asked me why I listen to that noise. I started pointing some of those details out, and she laughed and said she had never given one moments thought to that kind of stuff, and I asked her why she listened to music at all? She said she likes to dance, sing, and likes background noise. Lol. However she has learned a bit of appreciation for the details that go into writing and recording now that she has seen me doing it. And, she doesn’t look at me like I’ve lost my mind when a song comes in the radio and I say how much I love the reverb effect on the snare drum. :p
Dogsquat,
Interesting post, but I think you may be projecting the male fear of crazy/broken onto females. If a female is in the really really like/early love/love stage, there is a good chance that she will feel even more connected after unloading some baggage on her. Women are just built like that. Most actively want to be nurturing, caring and be able to ‘fix’, or at least help, a part of their SO that is hurt and broken. There is a huge female capacity for that. It’s in line with the alpha foot forward, and beta vulnerability being extracted out by her special being.
Now, of course, if a female is still feeling you out, ‘kinda likes’ you and is still unsure, then this may make her run for the hills, but anything past that stage and she will most likely want to stick around.
@Ted D
“And, she doesn’t look at me like I’ve lost my mind when a song comes in the radio and I say how much I love the reverb effect on the snare drum. :p”
_____________________________
Best reverb snare ever = Radio edit of The Boxer by Simon and Garfunkel.
Jason773 said:
“If a female is in the really really like/early love/love stage, there is a good chance that she will feel even more connected after unloading some baggage on her. ”
______________________________
I totally agree with you – SOME baggage renders you human.
I’m afraid of snakes, and I don’t care who knows it. Fucking things creep me out, even on TV. I have a buddy who lost his job awhile back and ran up a bunch of credit card debt. He’s employed now, but still getting back on his feet, living the frugal life. Even something like avoiding booze due to a parent’s alcoholism – all that stuff’s fine. It fits in with what you’re saying.
That’s not what I’m talking about.
When the issues are so deep-seated and serious they twist a guy up and take control of his life – that is the Bad Stuff. An otherwise mature, capable man behaving in a self-destructive, rudderless, reactive manner – that will chip away at the attraction.
A guy who is vocally hateful about gay dudes regardless of venue because he was molested as a kid and fears people will find out and question his sexuality is an example. Others would be a guy who becomes enraged/ depressed when being spoken to in a tone of voice that reminds him of his abusive mother, or a combat vet who cries after sex because he’s killed more people than he’s fucked and he hates that fact.
Jason773 said:
” Most actively want to be nurturing, caring and be able to ‘fix’, or at least help, a part of their SO that is hurt and broken. There is a huge female capacity for that. It’s in line with the alpha foot forward, and beta vulnerability being extracted out by her special being.”
______________________________
The key words are “fix or at least help”.
Lots of times women can’t, no matter how hard they want to. The guy’s continuing behavior, despite the woman’s best attempts at fixing and helping, can seem like rubbing her nose in her own failings. Most folks won’t stick around long for that.
You’re an RN, or at least in nursing school, right? Look at your male patients who are addicts. Usually, the women who stick by those guys come from families with one or more addicts in them. Women without that pathology in their past don’t stick around. It goes from “want to help him” to “I tried my best, but this loser can’t control himself and he makes me feel bad, I’m out” pretty quick.
I agree with you that no man is an island, and it’s stupid to conceal all quirks/negative things about oneself. But….
Your girlfriend is not your therapist.
Not a nurse, actually an engineer, but I was just advocating colleges with nursing school as a great place for young guys to meet women, as my first gf was a nurse. And I definitely agree with you that a gf shouldn’t be a therapist, but letting her in on the deep/dark part of you will still make her feel connected. She might actually be able to help, and make you feel more secure, or not, but you’re right in that if you don’t have a grip on your own issues, and you’re self-destructive, then a sane girl will end up leaving anyways.
I wouldn’t take JM to be self-destructive to a point of dark pathology, so opening up (if his gf really feels that strongly about him) might even make them stronger.
Dogsquat, different people have different capacities to do that role. My Myers Briggs is INFJ, and so is my husband. We play therapist for each other all the time. The INFJ’s archetype is the “counselor,” and the profession is even recommended to us on various sites. :p
I do agree that one shouldn’t unload everything and expect the best results. But it’s still much better to unload when she’s still feeling the glow of initial, passionate love and has dopamine swimming around in her head. You can throw a large object on a raging flame and have it burn away. When that burning fire cools off, and you lay it on, that’s could end up suffocating the oxygen from the fire.
My husband and I would not be as close as we are today without all of that upfront disclosure of the demons in our closets. And honestly, once you expose the “dark” stuff to the light, it’s not so scary anymore. We have both cried in each other’s arms, and we have both felt so much closer because of it.
No therapist can help heal a man as effectively as a woman who truly loves him and accepts him, EVERY part of him. Nobody is perfect, but love allows for imperfections. Maybe it’s idealistic of me, but I believe in true love. I also believe in healing a person sufficiently that the person loves him or herself enough to finish the healing job. The other INFJ archetype? The Healer.
@Ted D
Yes, I read a book as a witness to the story, not an actor. Are you saying that you actually become one of the characters in a book? If so, I think that is very unusual. To me, film is just a different medium for storytelling. Books are another, oral storytelling and ballads another. But they all are about someone else rather than me. My involvement comes about when I feel emotions as a result of what I read.
IDK, when I read a really good sex scene, the description of it arouses me – I feel it physically, but I don’t desire the male character. For example, the idea of actually kissing Mr. Darcy rather than having Elizabeth Bennet kiss him would never occur to me. On the other hand, Colin Firth in the 1996 BBC adaptation of Pride and Prejudice is extremely physically attractive, and that role turned him into a heartthrob. I’m sure there are many women who have fantasized about him, IDK. I recall that in the novel Bridget Jones, she is obsessed with Colin Firth and thinks he’s dreamy, but she wants him to get together with Jennifer Ehle, the woman who played Elizabeth in the BBC production.
I’m going to see if I can learn more about female fantasies – this may differ from woman to woman.
Bingo. When I heard my ex’s baggage, my first instinct was to try to help him and support him. He still had pretty bad symptoms from his own demons, but I thought he would put in the effort to heal himself. I was so wrong.
Instead of trying to make himself better or fix the situation, he continued to mire in self pity, and I couldn’t do anything to help him.
Despite my own training/school to become a licensed therapist, I couldn’t tolerate it for long.
I’m sorry, but I don’t agree with this. There are some things, in the healing process, that therapists can provide that the love of a man or woman cannot. The principal thing is objectivity in the situation and detachment. With a therapist, a person can spill every ounce of their baggage without having to wonder how it will affect them. They are trained to handle practically anything, and they are also not personally involved in the patient’s life.
Telling a loved one about your baggage is helpful, but it doesn’t compare at all to spilling your guts to a trusted stranger and not being afraid to show anger and complete misery to them as well. A therapist is someone you can do that with without having to worry about any of your baggage affecting them.
Jesus Mahoney, you say you are still “clueless” as to how to approach it with your girl. Yes, it’s awkward to bring up this kind of subject out of the blue. It’s also not something you want to do casually. I would suggest that you bring it up at night, in the dark, while cuddled up with her in bed and holding each other closely.
Bring it up by first talking about the current issue: romance novels. Say that it makes you feel uncomfortable and apprehensive (and whatever else) that she’s reading the 50 Shades book. Say you don’t blame her for wanting to check out the book because it’s a popular thing, but that this is really triggering your own baggage.
Use the word “baggage,” own up to it, and let her know it is a huge issue for you, and that you hadn’t realized just how big until the emotional impact has weighed on you so much over the past couple of weeks. Keep holding her so that she knows you don’t loathe her, and to reassure and comfort you both.
Then tell her more details about what your mother and brother did, how they made you feel, and how you are projecting (and you are) some of those feelings onto the girl who loves you now, even though you know that she is not intentionally trying to hurt you. You are repeating these old, unhealthy patterns of interactions, because deep down you do still crave that love from your mother, she did give birth to you, and is the first woman you ever loved.
But your mother didn’t love you properly, and that has caused emotional and psychological scars that, although you have mostly been able to deal with, sometimes come back with a vengeance. And when they come back, you feel unable to truly bond with any woman, you feel resentful toward anything that reminds you of this broken bond with your mother, and you get into a self-destructive mode where because your mother and brother made you feel “not good enough,” you hate and want to hurt yourself and those whom you love, because that is how you felt as a little boy.
It’s why you started smoking again and why you want to shut down emotionally, because that’s how you know to protect yourself. But you don’t want to keep repeating the patterns; you want to break the patterns and overcome the past. But you need your girl to be there for you, to not unwittingly trigger that baggage, and to show you love. That little boy was so wounded, and the scars still hurt when they are poked. The romance novel might be a minor thing to other people, but to you it is threatening to break open those old wounds. You want to heal, and you are trying to heal, and love is what will help you heal.
…I may have put some words in your mouth that you would never say, but I think it would be good to have this conversation with her. I have been there, had an abusive mother and a missing father, and also had self-destructive tendencies and repeated negative patterns. I could also have projected some of those onto you here, but I think at least I can relate. You don’t have to hide this part of your past. Don’t deny what has shaped you and is part of who you are. Love yourself and accept yourself, with the help of other people’s love.
Sassy, it is not like the therapist isn’t human and cannot feel for strangers. In fact I would argue the best therapists get to know their patients and care deeply for them.
There are studies that show doctors who touch their patients and look them in the eye provide better patient outcomes:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/09/what-doctors-are-telling-us-even-when-theyre-not-talking/
We need that human connection, even when it’s with a “stranger.” And didn’t we all start out as strangers? My husband and I had only known each other for a short time when he started playing “therapist” for me. We knew each other no better than strangers. I didn’t even know what he looked like. But his care and concern shone through his words.
Love is not all romantic. There is parental love, platonic love, and love for other people, animals, plants, and all life. These are all fundamental forces of the universe, and all have the capacity to heal.
@ Hope
I never said that therapists lack empathy, or the ability to show concern for their patients. That’s their job. The difference is, however, there is a line of professional etiquette that shouldn’t be crossed between a patient and therapist. A therapist’s job is to be an objective sounding board for their patients. They give advice and try to help, but they are never directly affected by their patient’s problems.
That’s what they can offer that a romantic partner cannot. They are able to remain detached, objective, and directly unaffected by their patient’s problems.
I’m going to see if I can learn more about female fantasies – this may differ from woman to woman.
Well the bitch that wrote Lost in Austen that is about a woman that travels back in time and space and steals Elizabeth’s man while she takes her place in the modern world-single and probably on her way to catlady- obviously dreams about being Elizabeth. Can you tell I hate that premise? I’m a huge shipper most of the time. But then I like both Lizzy and Darcy romances like Gone with the wind leave me cold because bitch and bastard didn’t made me root for them to find happiness but maybe end up in jail somehow and pay for all the pain the caused for their selfishness, although I did felt sorry when their daughter and their unborn baby died, that was a bit too karmic for my taste, but aside from that Lost in Tara might not had been that offensive, YMMV.
I personally do both things sometimes I’m a witness sometimes I get into the character’s skin as long as the character is not in a real dangerous situation but funny enough I get into both the male and the female. I do wonder if that is why I don’t like reading the sex scenes. If I’m both I’m not there in a sexual way but more in like emotional way and the sex breaks that connection because is not like that at all. Who knows?
@Sassy @Hope
You are both right and wrong it depends on the style of loving of the partner in Hope’s case her husband reacts well to this level of intimacy and touch during therapy and frankly the reason many patients feel attracted to their therapists is due to having this kind of style for attachment so is better that Hope does it than someone else. But on other cases people need a detached witness to express all their demons and feel exorcised from them. Like confessing to a priest, there is a level of comfort on talking to an authoritative figure and have him or her guide you through the process.
My own husband doesn’t react well at all to talking, for him talking about bad things like living them all over again but I did noticed that when he feels bad touching him, hugging him hard without saying nothing works wonders for his personal healing process so that is what I do. I am the opposite talking endlessly out loud forces me to hear my demons and once I hear them I see how silly I had been and how in the great scheme of things I’m just making a storm in a glass of water. So I will say is good to observe your partner and find the best way to help them, whether seeking help or holding them while letting them talk, YMMV.
Sassy, sure, and there were plenty of professionals who visited with us after our son’s death. They were quite detached and unaffected by our problems, and offered us therapy.
However, what helped me the most was my husband and my mother-in-law being there for me. We were all affected by the death, and our shared grief and love for each other as well as for our lost baby comforted us more than any professional. We mourned together, we got through that time together, and we emerged closer as a family together. I was very fortunate to have that.
A therapist might have been able to offer the logical sounding board, but I’m already quite logical. I know the logic, the objective, the detached, and I don’t need to pay someone else to point out the same thing that I can read from a book or pamphlet or on a Website. I needed someone to comfort me, a shoulder to cry on, someone who would understand me, love me and share my grief. The emotional body is best healed with love, and I believe this now more than ever.
Here, everybody’s default answer to someone with a traumatic past is “therapy.” Therapy, antidepressants, drugs, and professionals who are logical, objective, and detached. Yet so many people who are in therapy are not happier, not feeling better, not really getting over their problems. I come from a family of doctors, so it isn’t that I don’t appreciate modern science and pharmaceuticals. But my observation and experience tell me that love is more powerful than SSRIs for psychological healing.
Hope, I appreciate what you’re saying. You are correct about many things in the above posts. Part of what we’re disagreeing about is how detailed the disclosure should be. I recommend the minimum amount to satisfy honor and honesty. You’re saying to bare one’s soul, ask for acceptance, and then count on the other person for help.
Your way is how I’d expect spouses to act toward each other. My way probably isn’t the best thing for a marriage.
Don’t forget that you and JM are in much different positions. You have a long, strong history with your husband. You’ve seen each other in all kinds of circumstances. I’ll bet I could give you a scenario, and you could accurately predict his response to it to five decimal places.
JM (and myself, for that matter) are not in the same boat. Not. At. All. Maybe in a few years, but until then, I strongly advise men to be very, very cautious about doing a few of the things you suggest.
My way is much less risky. You can always disclose these things later. You can never un-say them, though.
Ana said:
“But on other cases people need a detached witness to express all their demons and feel exorcised from them. Like confessing to a priest, there is a level of comfort on talking to an authoritative figure and have him or her guide you through the process.”
___________________________
It’s really hard to explain this to someone who hasn’t experienced it.
One of the turning points in my life was on a crisp fall day, around lunchtime, walking to my car after some time with a good brainshrinker. I realized I’d just been perfectly honest with another person – no front, no blunting words, no consideration for our future relationship at all.
Quite a strange, but good feeling. I doubt I’d be as happy as I am now if I’d never felt that.
@Hope #464
That was a really insightful post!
Exactly.
I’ve been to a therapist too. It was amazing. I didn’t have to censor myself. I didn’t have to worry about what they thought of me. I didn’t have to worry about judgement. I was able to say things that I would never be able to get away with saying to a person that I knew personally. I cried. I screamed. I was angry. I was miserable without worrying about my appearance. It was liberating.
I think the ultimate healing process is to see a therapist for the utter unabridged sounding board and to have a person you love for the emotional support and stability. Both people serve their own respective purposes.
It’s really hard to explain this to someone who hasn’t experienced it.
I agree. I’m pretty sure Hope’s way is the best for her and her spouse but it doesn’t work the same for every couple on every stage, YMMV.
I have a question, and I’m not judging you or your marriage based on it: do you know of other men who are physically more appealing than your husband?
If you’re doing a survey of old, married ladies, I know that there are men more appealing than my husband, but I have to say that, even after nearly a quarter century together, I stil think my DH is a pretty hot guy. FWIW, he’s a shortish, stocky guy with salt and pepper curls, a heavy 5 o’clok shadow, a Roman coin profile and big, brown puppy eyes (alpha and beta traits). He’s also significantly heavier than he used to be.
Dogsquat, my husband and I had disclosure conversations a few weeks into knowing each other. Really, we started the disclosures almost immediately. I think JM has been with his gf for a couple of months, at least. I’m a fan of honesty, truth and open communication.
I was burned by a guy who waited nearly a decade to drop some bombs on me. He lied through his teeth about who he was for the whole duration of the relationship. Or, maybe you could call it, “hiding information.” All I can say is. Screw. That. Ask deti how he feels about his wife “coming clean” about demons in her past years after they first got together. I have a pet peeve about this. How the can you expect somebody to really love you if you won’t reveal your true self?
I have vented to strangers before about my past. I’m not one to hold things close to my chest. I travel lightly, so to speak. But venting is only the first step. The real healing has to come from a great deal of acceptance and love. I didn’t have that. So for a long time, I’d just vent, and vent, and keep talking about it to strangers who didn’t give a crap, and not get any better.
Then my husband came along, and within half a year I had healed to the point that I was almost completely a new person. Likewise I healed him. We’re so bonded to each other, in no small part because we were honest upfront. I could have hidden a lot from him, but I didn’t. If he couldn’t deal with it, he could have walked a few weeks after meeting me.
For me, and I think for other NFs as well, the following is apt: “There must be no facade, no mask, no pretense, no sham. To have integrity is to be genuine, to communicate authentically, to be in harmony with the innner experiences of self.”
http://www.davidmarkley.com/personality/idealist.htm
If Jesus Mahoney is an NF, which he says he is, then part of his struggle is that he is not able to be as authentic as he deeply wishes to be. NFs are also looking for “soul partners, persons with whom they can bond in some special spiritual sense sharing their complex inner lives and communicating intimately about what most concerns them; their feelings and their causes… and their search for wholeness.” He won’t get to this by holding important parts of himself back.
But the choice is his. It’s up to him whether he wants to try for the NF “ideal” or the “normal” relationship most people have. I just made a suggestion from my NF perspective, that’s all.
JM–I’ve intentionally stayed out of this dicscussion because I think Hope is handling it so well, but I just want to wish you the best in resolving this issue.
JasonNumbersNumbersNumbers:
“And I definitely agree with you that a gf shouldn’t be a therapist, but letting her in on the deep/dark part of you will still make her feel connected. She might actually be able to help, and make you feel more secure, or not, but you’re right in that if you don’t have a grip on your own issues, and you’re self-destructive, then a sane girl will end up leaving anyways.”
______________________________
The reason I advise against what you and Hope are advocating is the second word of the second sentence above – MIGHT.
What does “might” mean in that context?
It’s entirely dependent on how JM’s behavior affects his ol’ lady, and how much work she’s got to do to keep him from hurting her. That, in turn, depends on how much work he’s done to overcome his stuff.
Consider these two scenarios:
“Hey, have fun at the bar with your girls tonight. Gimme a call when you get home.”
“Give you a call? Don’t you trust me?”
“Meh. It’s not really about you – it’s me. Long time ago, I had a girlfriend bring a lot of damage into our lives because of some bad choices she made while drunk. I’m not going to go through that again. When you call me later tonight, I’ll know I don’t need to worry about history repeating itself. Thanks for being cool about this. I appreciate it, and, despite your terrible taste in bars, I appreciate you.”
OR HOW ABOUT THIS ONE:
“Where are you going tonight? Oh yeah? Who with? Fuck, I don’t like that girl at all. Doesn’t she have a boyfriend? Well then why’d she blow Zee last weekend? Damn. Anyway, let’s check in with each other every hour or so. Keep your phone on, and watch for texts.”
“Don’t you trust me?”
“I want to – I really do. But I’ve been burned really bad in the past. Fucking toasted, actually. I was really in love with my ex, you know. When I deployed, we couldn’t really talk on a regular basis. She ended up cheating on me and getting pregnant. She had a kid with the guy, no shit. I was over there in The Sandbox and had no idea what was going on – the whole time she kept up a facade. I sort of knew something was up, especially after I got wounded and came back stateside, but she managed our communication so well that I didn’t know the real deal for quite awhile. So, I really need you to be accessible. If you’re not, I won’t trust you. I’ll get suspicious and jealous. I don’t want to feel that about you – I really like you.”
The first conversation is basically verbatim – I have had it with every girl I’ve dated for the last five years. It’s never gone badly. Usually, it is beneficial. It’s often the first thing I set boundaries about, and it provides a platform to discuss other boundaries we each may have. It’s a big clue that the girl is being considered seriously.
The second convo is a much, much shorter version of one I had a (very) few times. I’d go on at length, describe in detail what makes me tick, and present a bunch of plans the girl could choose from to make me feel okay in that situation, etc.
There is so much wrong with that steaming emo turd of a conversation it’s hard for me to believe I’ve actually said it. Consider how it makes the girl feel:
-She’s paying for the mistakes of a woman she’s never met
-Her guy doesn’t trust her
-There will probably be drama if she misses a call
-Her guy might still be in love with an ex who fried him
-He doesn’t like and judges her friends
-There’s a bunch more, but you get the drift
…………………………………..
Keeping a guy who would have that second convo happy would be a lot of work. A smart girl would realize that she’s in an almost impossible situation. Who would want that crap in their lives?
The first conversation, though? All it takes is one call, and she can make him feel good. She’s been shown the path toward earning trust and intimacy – and she can take a few steps on said path tonight! There is also a little judicious Dread in there – if she doesn’t live up to expectations, she’ll nuke her chances.
For me, and I think for other NFs as well, the following is apt: “There must be no facade, no mask, no pretense, no sham. To have integrity is to be genuine, to communicate authentically, to be in harmony with the innner experiences of self.”
http://www.davidmarkley.com/personality/idealist.htm
Hope, that is a very interesting site. It explains a ton. I’ve often felt like Jesus and I were speaking foreign languages to each other (I am a SJ), and recall the intense debate about “compromise”. This excerpt from the site really grabbed me as I thought about JM and many of his comments. NFs literally view the world and relationships in a completely different way:
“NF Idealist Mating
***Idealists approach mating quite differently from the other three temperaments. In their own ways the other types tend to be realistic about mating, which is to say that Experiencers, Traditionalists, and Conceptualists assume that mates be fallible, and they will go along with a good deal of compromise in making their marriages work. Idealists, on the other hand, are singularly idealistic about choosing a mate, and most often take up the romantic task of seeking the perfect mate and the ideal relationship, what they call “love of their life” or their “one true love”, joined with them in a match made in heaven and crating a love timeless and eternal. In other words, NF’s are looking for more than life partners in their mates-they want soul partners, persons with whom they can bond in some special spiritual sense sharing their complex inner lives and communicating intimately about what most concerns them; their feelings and their causes, their romantic fantasies and their ethical dilemmas, their inner division, and their search for wholeness. Idealists firmly believe in such deep and meaningful relationships-they settle for nothing less-and in some cases they try to create them where they don’t exist thus creating their Pygmalion Projects.
Given this backdrop, I actually think Hope’s perspective is most useful to JM, although I think Dogsquat is right about how much is too much. One of the things that struck me reading about NFs is not seeing things in terms of gradation.
J, thank you for that, and I agree, hopefully the issues can be resolved. I think my view might be in the minority though. Most seem to be advising against honest, heart-to-heart talks before “a few years” have passed.
Dogsquat, there’s a time and place for having heavy conversations. The first convo is fine for that situation because she’s on her way out. The second convo should be saved for another time. It’s why I specifically emphasized cuddling at night and holding each other as the time to bring up such a subject.
My husband has given me various details of how girls in his past have hurt him at various different times. The stuff didn’t all come out at once, but he did tell me a lot within the first month (before we got physical). The rest came later, as he intuitively knew some things are better explained when we’re cuddled up in bed together than over text or on the phone.
How, when, where, body language, tone of voice and the context matter a lot. A lot of communication is nonverbal.
Plus, you first version is worded better. You can still word things in such a way that they don’t make someone defensive even when talking about difficult subjects.
Mike C, yeah, I think INFPs might be also more idealistic than INFJs, too. I tend to be able to get into “NT mode” to analyze things from a more detached manner. JM likes to go either full ideal or full pessimist.
I think Dogsquat’s suggestion to hold back a little bit is fine. Tread lightly at first, calibrate, and pull back if necessary. An empathic person is not one to keep going if the other person doesn’t want to go there. At least, an emotionally aware and astute person wouldn’t do that.
Honesty doesn’t have to be worded like a spear. It can be softened a bit. JM’s a wordsmith. Surely he can come up with something. Tell it like a story, even. “Once upon a time there was a little boy…”
@Hope:
“Or, maybe you could call it, “hiding information.” All I can say is. Screw. That. Ask deti how he feels about his wife “coming clean” about demons in her past years after they first got together. I have a pet peeve about this. How the can you expect somebody to really love you if you won’t reveal your true self?”
______________________________
Deti’s wife lied.
Lying is wrong, and that is not what I’m advocating.
I am recommending he work on himself, let his girlfriend know the basics of his issues, and evaluate from there. Don’t conflate the two, it’s inaccurate.
Hope said:
“Then my husband came along, and within half a year I had healed to the point that I was almost completely a new person. Likewise I healed him. We’re so bonded to each other, in no small part because we were honest upfront. I could have hidden a lot from him, but I didn’t. If he couldn’t deal with it, he could have walked a few weeks after meeting me.”
___________________________________
Couple things:
I’m glad you’re happy. Sounds like you won the relationship lottery. You found a guy who’s a bit of a “fixer”, and you happened to be a “fixer” too. You meshed in many ways, established trust early, and off you rode into the sunset….
That’s awesome. It’s also very, very, lucky.
Your advice boils down to this:
Dish out all your dirt. Hopefully, she’ll be willing to shoulder the load and help out. If she’s willing, maybe she’ll be capable, too. It’s the easiest and most comfortable way to get where you both wanna go. If it works, it will be wonderful!
Here’s what my advice boils down to:
Get your shit fixed and get in control of yourself. Learn strategies to improve yourself. Take responsibility for your mind. See the world accurately. Engineer work-arounds and patches for those things you dislike about yourself.
Let your SO know what’s going on with you, but don’t make her responsible for how you feel. You can let your lady put the finishing touches on your improvements – a little polish, a little detailed paint. But you, and you alone, are accountable for your actions.
I like reading your stuff, Hope. You and I definitely see things differently, and from that friction comes learning. I happen to disagree quite strongly with your method, and here’s why:
1. My way leaves JM healthier and stronger, even if his GF gets run over by a bus tomorrow.
2. If she’s willing and capable of helping him, she’ll do it. There’s no reason those two can’t end up with a similar situation to yours in this case. My way allows his GF some breathing room, an actual choice in the matter. JM can ease in on slowly if he needs time to process this stuff. You’d have him lay all his issues on her immediately. Hopefully she’s a “fixer”, too!
3. Sheer probability:
a) The amount of people in the world who are willing to assume responsibility for someone else’s happiness is very small. The amount of people willing to do that for someone after knowing them a few weeks or months is even smaller.
b)The amount of people willing to pitch in and really help someone who’s demonstrably busting their ass is much, much greater.
4. You’re relying way too much on luck. Luck is not a method.
Goddamn.
I see I’m going to have to take one of those four letter test thingies.
You and I might actually be different species, Hope. No wonder we disagree on this.
Dogsquat, we’re really not that far apart in our views.
1) I consider withholding crucial information to be about as bad as lying when it comes to intimate relationships. That’s why I encourage open honesty.
2) I hold the individual accountable and responsible for self-improvement. I think a healthy relationship is when both partners work on the self, and constantly strives toward becoming a better version of the self. There is no need to go at it completely alone, but there is also work that one has to do individually.
If I hadn’t been willing and eager to work on myself, then no matter what kind of support I received, I wouldn’t really get better. And eventually I would exhaust that source of support. It is not fair to ask someone else to prop me up and hold me up. I do not think anyone else should expect this either.
3) I’m not saying JM should lay out everything and expect his girlfriend to “fix” him. I’m saying he needs to talk about it with her instead of letting it fester and stew. He is responsible for his own emotional state (as we are each responsible for our own emotional state). Right now, he’s hurting himself by not being honest.
4) We create some of our own luck.
Apparently, I am an ENFP.
“Slightly expressed extravert” sounds like some kind of ooze from an infected wound.
@ Dogsquat
Do it. Come to the “NT” side.
Mwahahahaha!!!
I side with Dogsquat on this one.
I have this saying:
Not everybody needs to know all the truth all the time.
There may come a time when Jesus M’s GF needs to know all the truth. Now is not that time.
Perhaps she needs to know some of that truth now. She does not need to know all of it now. If she becomes JM’s wife, or they are moving in that direction, perhaps then she will need to know all the truth.
Spouses need to know all the truth all the time. GFs do not.
Wait, nevermind. You are on the “NF” side.
I’m an ENTP. We aren’t that different. It would explain why your posts make the most sense to me.
I missed you when you were gone from here Dogsquat. The agony, the pure unadulterated agony…..
Hope, I am totally hung up on this:
1) I consider withholding crucial information to be about as bad as lying when it comes to intimate relationships. That’s why I encourage open honesty.
and
3) I’m not saying JM should lay out everything and expect his girlfriend to “fix” him.
Don’t withhold, but you’re not saying to lay it all out there….
Doesn’t make sense the way I’m seeing it.
Susan – yep. When I’m reading I’m in the story, unless it’s an education book and then I stress to memorize stuff since I suck at it.
I read books when I want to engage in a story, I watch a movie when I want to spectate. Probably why my favorite movies are totally unrealistic, meaning NO WAY that it would happen in real life. Think sic-fi or action, lots of car chases, guns, and stuff blowing up. I avoid “tear jerkers” like the plague. I mean honestly, I get enough sadness and depression in day to day life, I don’t need a movie to make me feel like crap.
So reading a sex scene turns you on, but not because you imagine being in it. So, what turns you on about it? Is it simply because you visualize the scene? That doesn’t register to me because generally women aren’t visual in that way, or I would think they would like porn just as much as men do.
I’m confused… :-p
Sassy, I have that effect on women.
ba-doom-tish
Delurking to add the following: JM should consider his gf’s Myers Briggs type when approaching any kind of disclosure. I’m an ENFP who loves to gab about motivation/’the big WHY?’ but I know I have to tone it down with my INTP boyfriend. I couldn’t go full-out Dogsquat with him if there was a ‘want a check-in phone call after the bar’ scenario.
I’d probably say something like, “Call me before bed. It’d be fun to hear your voice before I fall asleep. And we can take a few minutes to plan an outing for later in the weekend.” No way I’d cop to being that worried and insecure because my partner values his independence so highly. He would consider it a total buzzkill if I said something serious before his night out.
With an NF, I’d divulge more because I know they’d probably enjoy analyzing my disclosure to death. On the phone before the night out. And later in bed. With me. Like a team sport.
It’s about two people’s personality and approach, not one.
I think context is important, too. Who is she? Is she a teacher who likes to write as well? If she’s had a liberal arts education, it’s likely she’s going to value her right to fantasize and read whatever she likes. Blue state teachers and librarians tend to be big on that. You don’t want to come off as a creative writing guy who is into censorship.
Further, she might not even know what the word ‘alpha’ means to you or have thought about ‘alpha’ versus ‘beta’ all that much. And she might approach reading the way Susan does — in an observational way and not a participatory way. She might only have picked up the book because she likes conversing about the latest cultural studies phenomenon.
All things to keep in mind before you make it into a ‘big talk.’
Perhaps she’d respond better to a non-serious, non-high stakes, sideways musing such as… “I’d always imagined that the guys in books like 50 Shades are brutish and assholes, kind of like my older brother. Yuck. It’s a mystery to me why women would enjoy reading about a man who doesn’t respect them.”
My guess is she would say that chic lit books or romances are fun for a variety of reasons. Some women read them because they enjoy reading descriptions of a man’s personality unfolding like an onion. Or, as someone mentioned above, descriptions of two people coming together. Reading about two people flirting makes me fondly reminisce about my coming together with my current guy. Some women enjoy reading them in a tongue-in-cheek way and making fun a bit while they read along. I’m not a huge romance reader but reading a chic it book on a plane is the same to me as watching a tv show. I like reading about relationships and motivations and if I’m not able to concentrate on something more serious, it’s a nice distraction. But I also mock the book as I read. Most women aren’t as hardcore into shopping and Manolos as those books say. So I roll my eyes and count myself informed about stereotypes of single women living in Manhattan.
Dogsquat, I meant lay it all out (including non-crucial information) AND expect her to fix him.
And the ex did lie to me and also withheld information. I reacted to both the same way. I lost all respect.
deti, LTRs sometimes lead to marriages. Imagine how things might be different if your wife disclosed her past within the first month?
Steel on target, Miss Pennies!
Great suggestion with the oblique approach.
Mike C – great link! One of the best descriptions of INTJ I’ve seen.
It’s really funny how the description explains certain behaviors.
hope:
“deti, LTRs sometimes lead to marriages. Imagine how things might be different if your wife disclosed her past within the first month?”
yes, sometimes LTRs do lead to marriages.
First month of what? Of my dating her or my being married to her?
Hard to say how things would have been different. The old deti probably would have simpered along and caused her to lose respect for me anyway, leading to an early divorce. But the fact that I’m still married to Mrs. deti does not mean it was good that she hid it for 15 years.
JM’s situation is different. He doesn’t need to tell her everything. If he’s moving toward marriage, then he probably does. But that’s not where he is right now. Hence:
Not everybody needs to know all the truth all the time.
Mike C – great link! One of the best descriptions of INTJ I’ve seen.
It’s really funny how the description explains certain behaviors.
Yeah, very interesting stuff as I continue to read through it. I’m a SJ paired with a NT. I suspect based on what I’ve read that most NFs would find the sort of relationship we have deeply unsatisfying. There is no doubt we both love each other, but we don’t have much in the way of “deep soulful communication” that it seems NFs need. I suspect to a NF it might even seem a bit superficial or shallow.
The more I delve into this MB personality stuff, I think it is just as important if not more important to relationship dynamics as the slpha-beta spectrum stuff.
Dogsquat, I admit I’m surprised you are an NF. You don’t strike me as the idealist type unless a lot of your real world experience has tempered that side of you with a bit more realism and pragmatism.
I think this stuff impacts communications as well. As a SJ, I’m heavy on facts and figures, what I can see, touch, and observe. Honestly, I often feel like much discussion of abstract thoughts and concepts borders on mental masturbation but I can see how that is critically important to other personality types.
So reading a sex scene turns you on, but not because you imagine being in it. So, what turns you on about it? Is it simply because you visualize the scene? That doesn’t register to me because generally women aren’t visual in that way, or I would think they would like porn just as much as men do.
I think men are visual with their eyes while women are visual with their minds and words. That is why porn aimed to women has a lot of words and some background for the characters they are painting the picture with words and scenario while men go for direct banging, showing it. Is different types of visualization but they are visualization nevertheless, YMMV.
Hmm. I see your point, Hope.
I still think your way puts way too much pressure on a new relationship. Doing it the way Pennies suggests makes it more palatable, but….damn.
I wonder if you and my GF aren’t the same personality type. You certainly shared the same strategy. About three weeks in, she asked me out for coffee and talk. She told me a bunch of mushy-cheesy stuff about liking me more than anyone ever blah blah blah – and then said:
“Before I get more attached, I need to tell you some things so you can decide whether-or-not we fit.”
She was pale and her palms were sweaty. Pale, cool, and diaphoretic as we say in the Meat Wagon trade. I wanted to give her oxygen and start an IV on her, she looked so bad. She made me nervous just sitting there. I was thinking,”Oh, great. Here’s where she tells me she’s married, has AIDS, and is moving to Subic Bay to found a leper colony.”
Then she told me a bunch of stuff.
I was all,”That’s it? Nah, come on! Really? You were worried about THAT?”
So it worked out for her, too.
I will say, though, that if she’d said anything remotely close to a dealbreaker for me, I’d have thanked her for her honesty and LJBF’ed her. Pow. Right then. No chance for redemption, or for showing she’s changed, or for making me doubt my criteria.
That’s risky.
Anacanoa – interesting. So it is imagining the scene, with all the “story” behind it, that triggers the reaction. But this all happens as an observer…
So standard porn doesn’t work with women because they don’t know the characters or thier motivations for having sex? Meaning women are turned on by “emo-porn” because they know the motivations and thoughts of the characters?
deti, I don’t get into relationships lightly, and I’m quite serious when in love. So I wouldn’t treat my husband differently now than when he was my boyfriend.
Mike C, yeah, seems like different personality types live in almost different worlds.
Thank you, Mr. Dogsquat. I can’t believe I am rooting so hard for someone on the Internets to pull off a successful conversation, but I am… Go JM! Love that woman hard!
Relurking now…
So standard porn doesn’t work with women because they don’t know the characters or thier motivations for having sex? Meaning women are turned on by “emo-porn” because they know the motivations and thoughts of the characters?
I wouldn’t say it doesn’t work but is usually not seek out as much as the romance. In One Billion Wicked thoughts you can see how women fuel the romance industry with millions of dollars but is men the ones that do the same for porn. Few men spent a lot of money and time in Romance and few women spent money and time in porn.
So most of the time you will have a hard time having female aimed porn where there is not some seduction and background involved, YMMV.
Dogsquat, yes, very risky. But it’s also smart. If I take that risk and get rejected in under a month, it’s far better than years down the road and wasting all that time.
A new relationship can withstand a lot of pressure. You press down hard to form a solid foundation. But old relationships will crack when its foundation was found to have tons of holes. At least, this is my opinion.
Pennies, I think your approach is generally good, and I’ve done variations of it. I’ve brought up past issues in a light, humorous or “not a big deal” way, but in those cases I’d already dealt with them and moved past them.
In JM’s case, he hasn’t really moved past this issue. Yes he does need to work on it, but he can’t really work on it alone. You can’t regain trust in a woman’s love without having a woman’s love reaffirmed. Again, my opinion, and it could be true he could never say a peep about it to her and come out just fine. My way is definitely riskier, but I’m a fan of taking risks for love. Makes for a better story.
Mike, I’m interested in that as well. It might be because I’ve gotten entirely too much sleep, too much sex, too many good things happening with work and school, and a lot of free time lately. I’m one happy SOB right now, and that’s sort of unusual. “Happy” is not how I’d normally describe myself.
I don’t fit a lot of the stuff in the description – but in other ways it was accurate.
I’m a people person and generally well liked. I hate cleaning and dealing with money, so I pay people to do it for me. I would die of boredom in 32 seconds if my job was pushing paper. I am prepared for emergencies at all times (fortunate, considering that’s my job) and I do get frustrated with people who aren’t.
This one fits, too:
“ENFPs hate bureaucracy, both in principle and in practice; they will always make a point of launching one of their crusades against some aspect of it. ”
That’s gotten me in trouble before. I’m on a crusade right now at one place I work, actually.
But this line:
“ENFPs are characteristically optimistic and are surprised when people or evnts do not turn out as anticipated. Often their confidence in the innate goodness of fate and human nature is a self-fulfilling prophesy. ”
Oh, man. I actually got a good 30 second belly laugh out of that. Humans are not what these other ENFPs think they are. Poor dumb bastards.
Pops back up. Apparently, I really don’t want to finish my doorframe painting project, haha…
I think the key is – is she an NF or not. If she is, Hope’s approach is likely the best. If she’s not, a less heavy introduction to the topic is probably better and then it can be revisited a day or two later in a more intense way. If she’s an NT, she might have very strong feelings about someone suggesting she not read or think about certain things. It might freak her out because it smacks of censorship.
It really depends on her personality and politics. If I had to give one piece of advice, it would be to separate the “women who read certain types of books disgust me” stance + all the alpha/beta talk from the real meat…
…which is, IMHO, “I don’t like the idea that you would be attracted to a man who has a personality like my brother.”
Ana – question. What does a romance novel do for a woman that she cannot or does not have herself? Most guys I know watch porn when they don’t have a sex partner available, but when one is porn is the last thing on thier mind.
So, why do women who are in happy relationships read romance novels? Is it because they don’t feel like they are getting enough romance at home? If I can determine that the romance novel isn’t filling some need or role that I should be, perhaps I wouldn’t find them so intimidating. It’s the idea that my SO might want to read them because she feels she is lacking that bothers me.
Hope said:
“My way is definitely riskier, but I’m a fan of taking risks for love. Makes for a better story.”
________________
When it works, it probably works really well.
Even if it doesn’t, it’s job security for me.
Depressed, lonely, alcoholics who smoke are a big part of my patient population. The women who fit that description single-handedly keep my toxicology knowledge up-to-date. They eat a bewildering variety of pills when attempting suicide.
Last year, I had one try and kill herself by swallowing a huge (like, 500 count) bottle of iron supplement tablets.
Really neat x-rays – you could see the individual pills moving through her digestive tract.
The men are kind of boring. They die of organ failure or self inflicted GSW.
Messy.
Pennies, I’ll paint all your doorframes from now on.
You post here instead.
Deal?
pennies, yeah, it really does depend on the person on the receiving end. Though I think there aren’t a whole lot of NT women. They’re the rarest type.
Dogsquat, well, that’s certainly not what I would intend with the suggestion to take some risks. When I got rejected, I cried a while, then I moved on, because ultimately, if someone doesn’t love and accept all of me, then that’s not someone I should start a family with and be with for life.
I do feel bad for those who try to take their own lives. I’ve been suicidal before, and I know what it’s like. It’s not a good place to be. But my “risk-taking” was really about taking power back into my own hands. If someone cannot face rejection, then they should play it safe. You know the best way to play it safe? Not be in a relationship at all.
@Ted
First I think many men still watch porn in a committed relationship, if not women wouldn’t be using it as an excuse for divorce in the grounds of cheating.
Second I think is a bit like masturbation, many women feel offended if they find out their husbands/SO are masturbating. But according to everyone is not to be taken personally sometimes men just want to clean out the pipes and want to do it themselves, not the whole act just get it done and move on.
I don’t think women that like Romance are filling some lack on their marriages (those women are usually the ones that seek out affairs with real men) but is mostly a form of entertainment. I mean do you read or watch movies to fill a need or just to be entertained for a while?
I think that is probably the part that doesn’t compute unless the woman is actually trying to use romance as substitute for her relationship chances are she is just having a good time entertaining herself, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and all that.
Hope,
I’m in favor of long, heartfelt talks early on, but I understand Dogsquat’s point too. I think JM might want to watch his frame during the discussion in that he shouldn’t present himself as a crazy who is going to make the current gf pay for the sins of the last one or of his mother. A sane girl will run from that. Other than that, if this a quality girl, this is the time for heartfelt talks. In fact, I’d say that the ability to accept him for who reveals himself to be in those talks is a qualifier for her (and vice-versa, if she opens up with somethiinhg sensitive).
Escoffier:
the ‘flakiness’ Hope described also applies to me. It also applies to about every woman I know who has a way of being ‘flaky’ (most women). I don’t think it counts for only 1% of flakiness. Guys are just not always aware they’re being dicks. Or they like to label a girl ‘flaky’ when she’s actually right.
It doesn’t have to be as bad as him seeing other girls. It can be smaller things: canceling appointments last minute, taking ages to respond to texts or calling back, squeezing me in on unfortunate hours etc. Sometimes these things are justified by typical male excuses such as long work hours, but if they happen repeatedly, I’m not okay with it. I’m not saying it makes me enraged, but it definitely makes me go cold. I know I’m the type of girl who can drive a man nuts (‘I was too busy at work to respond to her, and now she refuses to get back to me!’), but I’m (honestly) the sweetest when a guy makes me a priority
If he makes other plans when he wants to, I will too. If a girl gives the same treatment back to a guy as he has given her, it is common for him to feel she’s ‘difficult’. Because we’re often supposed to be just a little bit needy and overbearing.
Hey everyone. Thanks for all the advice.
Hope,
50 Shades was the least of my concerns. It was just something that we’d discussed here, that I’d looked into, and that she happened to be reading. What bothered me wasn’t that it was a romance novel–what bothered me was how disturbing Grey sounded as a character. Anyway, it’s a moot point: her evaluation of the novel pretty much mirrored Sue’s.
Re: my mom, it wasn’t so much the romance novels themselves as it was the denial and escape from reality they represented. Basically they served the same purpose as the alcohol: to forget life, life including the rest of the Mahoneys.
Anyway, I’m just commenting to let you all know what happened today.
I didn’t want to go into full confessional mode. Just writing about some of the stuff here makes me want to cry at times, so I thought if I just started blurting it all out I’d look like a mad man. So I told her I had a rough time as a kid and it makes it hard to open up and trust someone, but that I loved her and trusted her more than I’d ever trusted anyone, and while I didn’t think I could talk about all the things that had happened to me, I didn’t want to hold anything back. So I gave her one of my childhood journals and told her she’s welcome to read any of the others, which is something I’ve never let anyone do because they’re sort of a window into who I am on the inside.
So that went over well, and we had fun and I fell asleep since I hadn’t slept at all last night, and I woke up she’d already left for the yoga class she teaches, but she left me a really sweet letter that said she’d read the journal and that she loves me and a lot of other sappy shit I won’t torture you by saying.
And that’s for all the feedback and advice from everyone. And hi pennies, nice to meet you.
Deti,
We’ve only been a couple for 5 months, but I already know I’m going to marry her.
J, I agree with that. It does need to be approached gently, carefully, without blaming the girl, and he needs to not come off as crazy.
And yeah, Dogsquat is also right in that if he can’t get a handle on this, it’s a bad thing.
A person has to get to the point of being truly content, take responsibility for his/her actions, and not rely on someone else for his/her emotional states.
But it’s also a feedback system. Having a wonderful special person in one’s life really helps one’s happiness level, emotional state, and overall life quality.
Don’t be totally reliant, but don’t be totally aloof. Finding that balance is the trick.
MIke C–Cool site! I think that the MB schema is more important than alpha/beta in undertanding relationships. There really isn’t much in A/B theory that applies to my relationship with my DH, but when I found info on relationships between INTP/INTJ a whole new world opened up for me.
Hope–Sorry for nitpicking you before, but as you can see I can’t help myself:
“Precise about their descriptions, INTPs will often correct others (or be sorely tempted to) if the shade of meaning is a bit off. While annoying to the less concise, this fine discrimination ability gives INTPs so inclined a natural advantage as, for example, grammarians and linguists. INTPs detect contradictions in statements no matter how distant in space or time the contradictory statements were produced. The intellectual scanning of INTPs has a principled quality; that is, INTPs search for whatever is relevant and pertinent to the issue at hand. Consequently, INTPs can concentrate better than any other type.
In all seriuousness, that sort of thing really does drive me nuts. DH tells me that no one has appointed me “the village corrector,” but I’m batshit with this stuff.
@ Jesus Mahoney
*Slow claps*
Good luck man.
Jesus Mahoney, that’s great to hear. She sounds like a good woman, and you have handled this situation well.
It would also make sense that a writer would use written words to solve a problem!
JM #516
Sounds great! About 25 years ago, I had a similar conversation with a guy who had had a painful childhood …
Don’t be totally reliant, but don’t be totally aloof. Finding that balance is the trick.
Well, JM seems to have found the right balance. Good for him!
@dogsquat
Awws! I’m sorry I finished painting before I read your offer. It’s over now and I get to go antique desk shopping with my bf in a few. Much more fun!
I used to post on two threads on Salon when I was in grad school. In retrospect, it ate up a lot of time, so I try not to get involved in online discussions anymore, even when I have the occasional day off like today. It was cool, though. Like here, there were incredibly distinct personalities and there was a great narrative pull. It’s fun watching people’s lives unfold, listening to them speculate before taking a course of action, and hearing them report back.
(I am also too much of a F-m—st to stick around here. I’m one of those chickies who checked out this blog post-Atlantic Monthly. Shhhh…)
But I am rooting for JM and I am excited that people are using Myers Briggs and Helen Fisher’s theories to think about dating.
Hope, I’m not sure what the percentages are for women NFs — somewhere between 30-40%, I think… So that leaves a 60-70% chance that his GF is not an NF. An SFP or SFJ might have trouble following Jesus’ leaps of thought. His arguments might seem too abstract and conceptually overwhelming to an S and too emotionally overwhelming to an NT. I’ve learned over the years to use MB to appreciate that others are NOT like me and that I can’t expect everyone to process information and emotions the way I do. I think most people wind up with someone who has at least one letter different and my guess is that it has something to do with biodiversity and complimentary immune systems… You have a pretty unusual (and lucky) situation with your husband but I think most of us wind up with someone who doesn’t navigate the world exactly the same way. It’s important that people keep in mind that there’s no right or wrong in many situations — just a personality-driven difference in perspective.
Yes. I guess I like to watch.
I recently read that 25% of women do watch porn. I do not, but I have before. I didn’t find it sexy at all, mostly because the woman’s needs are such a low priority, I guess, and there was no emotion. I wrote a post a while back about what straight men can learn from gay porn, and when I watched some gay male porn I thought it was really hot. I guess it was the high penis factor, I dunno. I’ve read that a lot of straight women do watch gay porn. And there’s no question that 50 Shades is erotica, which is porn.
@Pennies
Welcome, and thanks for delurking. I love all the support for JM in this thread, from both women and men. It makes me feel really good about our virtual living room here, and how people have each other’s backs. So glad you joined us!
I would say this is true, but love and intimacy have to be the emotions.
J, it’s all good. I can play a bit fast and loose with words sometimes, as can my husband. We’ve both said stuff like, “Well you know what I meant.” And with just each other, it’s true. Not always the case with other people.
Pennies, based on some of JM’s past posts about long, drawn-out conversations about theories and reading together with his gf, plus her nurturing qualities, I guessed that chances were high she might be NF. I try to pay attention to such things, but I suppose that is still conjecture, and you might be right that if she were a different type, she might not respond well to it. Anyway, thanks for the discussion. Can we convert you to a former-feminist?
I’ll go ahead and chime in on the porn discussion. I have a feeling that it will only paint me as an outlier even more. We’ll see.
I watch porn, typically lesbian porn. Despite the fact that I’m straight, I find it arousing to watch two women go at it. The sex seems more realistic than straight porn. It doesn’t focus on penetration as much, and I find the orgasms to be much more believable.
I don’t fantasize to be in any of the women’s positions. I just find that lesbian porn has a sensuality about it that is lacking in straight porn.
As far as romance novels go, it’s hit or miss for me. Sometimes I like to imagine myself as the heroine in the novels who ends up with the hunky guy. Other times I like to imagine my interpretation of the character ending up with the guy. One perspective is 1st person while the other is 3rd person.
@Marie
No one likes to be treated as an afterthought. Some women may get more interested if the guy pulls back, but I know a couple of very high SMV women who have bailed at the first sign of push pull. They’re tired of being gamed. Game is the norm now – I’m not saying most guys do it well, but most guys try it, and women are basically rolling their eyes. One said to me, “I’m not going to waste time on any guy who isn’t gung ho.” Of course, these women are more likely to attract cads, so that’s probably a factor.
@Jesus
Ah, I’m proud of you. Sounds like you did exactly the right thing in exactly the right way. You’re living a wonderful love story – it’s more satisfying to hear than any fictional happy ending.
@Sassy
Is funny because I like straight porn except girl on girl action I’m not grossed out by it but it just boring I already have one of those I don’t need to see more I know how everything there works so there is not excitement I prefer penetration show but I don’t really like gay porn either it just seem…boring? Ugly? Lazy? Is pretty much “your turn” let’s go at it with straight porn there is a bit of delay surprises and I like that. It could be that I haven’t watched good gay porn but is still two dicks nothing interesting happens with both things looking the same I like my two complementary stuff I guess. Or I’m just heteronormative who knows :p
Dog,
Best reverb snare ever = Radio edit of The Boxer by Simon and Garfunkel.
Don’t know if it’s just an urban myth or not, but it’s said to have been achieved by dangling the drummer into a lift shaft.
Byron, the drummer’s name is Hal Blaine. He was indeed playing in front of an open elevator shaft.
Dawg,
Hal Blaine’s one of my favourite drummers, he played on all those old Phil Spector songs.. Then there’s Steve Gadd.. Jaki Liebezeit… And Ringo, of course.
Mahoney,
So glad you’re on an upturn, the indirect sharing (through your old journal) I think was an inspired leftfield move, you now feel healed, loved & accepted from it without directly splurging all that steam building up in your head.
No one seems to have mentioned yet how this is yet another male-female difference: the mainstream advice on all this stuff is essentially designed for – & popularly consumed by – women, but men are both built differently & face very different experiences of the world & its expectations of them. Hope’s advice is good for women & perhaps couples in very long-term, well-established relationships, but Dogsquat’s appeals for caution are sound & all men would be wise to at least factor them into the equation. Men reaching out when vulnerable much -perhaps most- of the time only makes them more vulnerable, & they run a very great & real risk of losing status in the eyes of the world & attractiveness in the eyes of their partner in a way women really just don’t ever experience to anything like the same degree.
This is something most women don’t like to recognize, so simply don’t, & after the fact often don’t even make the connection, they just think they lost attraction for the guy somehow, somewhere down the line, or the man they made open up to them suddenly seemed to be whining all the time.
I’m not there now, but I’ve had comparable experience to some of the headstates you’ve been describing, & I fully understand just how utterly fucking ghastly it can feel. On the brighter side, though, it does mean you are truly in love.
Currently can’t copy quotes on my phone but I wanted to weigh in on a few things. This has been such an interesting discussion!
Bryon @ 531 – I agree with everything you said, especially with regard to Hope’s advice vs Dogsquat’s. Both are good approaches depending on the stage of the relationship.
JM – I’ve been following this thread and it’s lovely to see you found a way to convey your feelings to your gf! Glad that it went well. It’s not easy opening up about these kinds of things.
Being vulnerable is always a risk, but in relationship it’s worth doing. I am a NF as well (INFP) and I wouldn’t want to be with someone I had to hold back part of myself to make it ‘work’.
And finally, to go on a 180 here…
Sassy, Anacaona – It’s so funny because my viewing habits differ from both of you! I’m a straight woman but I prefer watching gay male porn. I can’t really get into straight porn (I find it unrealistic and it centers far too much on penetration for my liking) and lesbian porn does nothing for me.
I’m definitely not envisioning myself getting in on the action, so for me seeing two guys getting it on is hot. Plus the actors in gay porn are generally way more attractive than the actors in straight porn, so it’s seeing twice as much of what I like
I remember some study about women being turned on by seeing sex (even other species), where men needed to be able to see themselves doing it. Still looking for links, in the mean time, here are a few tid-bits I came across…
hxxp://news.softpedia.com/news/Women-More-Turned-On-Than-Men-by-Sex-Images-51874.shtml
hxxp://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/7877774/Female-mice-can-be-turned-lesbian-by-deleting-gene.html
hxxp://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/7883867/Late-blooming-lesbians-women-can-switch-sexualities-as-they-mature.html
JM – I’m glad to hear you talked to your gf and things went well.
re: porn.. I’m also like Sassy, I prefer watching lesbian porn. It’s rare to find straight porn that doesn’t make me roll my eyes. I think it’s just that most American porn is horrible, really. I’ve seen gay porn a few times before and while I found it sexy, I don’t go seeking it out. I can’t handle watching that much penetration (I guess that applies to straight porn too).
Just,
that might be something from ‘A Billion Wicked Thoughts’, I posted a related extract from it here:
http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/billion-wicked-thoughts.html
I don’t think men necessarily need to see themselves having sex to get turned on – porn doesn’t feature the viewer of it, after all, & men are overwhelmingly the main enthusiasts of that revelry. But female sexuality is, as I said before, far more plastic than male. Women are a kind of “this+this+this, in the right situation, might make me say ‘why not?’”, whereas men are more of an on/off switch. As soon as we turn 13 we usually know exactly what we like & who we want to fuck & would like to do it as soon as possible, please, & until the day we die. If we’re straight, by God we know we’re straight, & if we’re gay, it’s just so apparent to us that men are where it’s at that we leap at the first chance & never look back.
Thinking about it, this might be a reason why that odd notion of gender/sexuality being a societal construct originated with feminism – which is, after all the only female political & philosophical movement in history. Perhaps it appears to make more sense from a female point of view.
@Byron
it was something along those lines. I remember some femiknut claiming it* was a defence mechanism for a woman being raped; the ability to be easily turned on (and thus lubricated to prevent injury) even when they hated what was happening – menz fault, who’d a guessed? (she wrote a comment IIRC not the item). Having trouble finding a link though…
*’it’ was being turned on by watching dogs go at it – I shit you not (assuming that my memory isn’t having a senior moment). it’s that damn “frontal cortex over mammalian brain over reptilian brain ” hardware stack. What a shonky processing platform ‘we’ run on.
Not the link I was looking for, but interesting and related-ish to the general conversation
http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare?page=2
My bad, it looks like it was monkey sex, not dog sex.
“Pornography studios might do well to take a tip from the Discovery Channel. According to a recent study, women are aroused by watching monkey sex…”
http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/monkey-love-reality-sex/
http://www.alternet.org/story/30028//
if you search for women and dog sex, you do find a lot of eyebrow lifting articles…just sayin’. Still LMAO
I didn’t want to mention this before Jesus had resolved the crisis, but I do feel strongly that this is true. For those of you who missed my infamous post on shit testing, I immediately lost attraction for a guy when I saw him cry. My response was to shit test like crazy, and he failed, so I dumped him. In my defense, all I can say is that I was 14 and I didn’t yet know him very well, so his weeping was something I didn’t know how to handle, though he was weeping for a very good reason – his father’s death the year before.
So, full disclosure:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/03/21/relationshipstrategies/why-we-shit-test/
@Susan,
FYI catyyophoex on Feminism’s End Game is selling drugs
@Iggles
This is my experience as well. I am finding it fascinating to learn that some people observe – a form of voyeurism. Others put themselves into an active role – exhibitionism? It’s an interesting insight into human nature and female sexuality.
I recall not caring for the gay videos with penetration, but liking the masturbation and oral sex ones. That’s closer to a straight female’s appetites than straight porn filmed for men, IMO.
When I watch straight porn I start laughing halfway through because of the sheer ridiculousness, and then I get bored and find something new. I haven’t seen oral sex gay porn yet, but I confess that I kind of like masturbation videos. One time when I was in high school, I came across a video of two women who were wrestling while covered with oil. There was no sex involved, it was just two women wrestling and slipping everywhere, but I was so aroused it hurt. Fascinating to think that these play into straight female sexual appetites more so than straight porn.
(I also read a lot of Harry Potter porn fan-fiction, hahaha.)
@Just1X
I remember reading a sex scene between a stallion and a mare, and I found it arousing. The stallion appeared to be literally mad with desire – I think that’s what triggered it for me.
I once went to a bachelorette party, and they played a film called “Hump Hound.” It was a German sheperd, a girl and a jar of mayo. It was truly revolting.
@Just1X
Not sure how the spam filter missed that one, thanks.
I can’t handle watching that much penetration (I guess that applies to straight porn too).
Wow it seems like that I’m only female fan of penetration in the board. I don’t know for me oral sex is akin to touch a warm up, never being satisfied just by it and I actually don’t mind skipping it to the penetration part. Is because I’m new? Maybe when I have the children I’ll change…
it was something along those lines. I remember some femiknut claiming it* was a defence mechanism for a woman being raped; the ability to be easily turned on (and thus lubricated to prevent injury) even when they hated what was happening – menz fault, who’d a guessed? (she wrote a comment IIRC not the item). Having trouble finding a link though…
My guess is also a way to keep the woman alive in the times when an invader would get your tribe and kill your men an uncooperative woman might be easier to get kill a woman that even if showing resistance cooperates might had been taken back as spoil of war and live enough to pass of their genes. A bit like cuckold fantasy for men were they impulse to compete with another man’s sperm make him hot and bothered even if he hates seeing her woman get it on with another man. We really had a very fucked up origin as species no wonder is so easy for us to get neurotic and crazy we are fighting a lot of vestigial crap with rationality and civilization, YMMV.
*’it’ was being turned on by watching dogs go at it – I shit you not (assuming that my memory isn’t having a senior moment). it’s that damn “frontal cortex over mammalian brain over reptilian brain ” hardware stack. What a shonky processing platform ‘we’ run on.
Heh that reminds me a movie I saw about Adam and Eve in which after she ates the forbidden fruit she looks at the lions doing it and it kind of gets her an idea and she goes to seduce Adam I saw this movie twice before puberty and after it and the first time I considered the scene weird after it…well I got it.
(I also read a lot of Harry Potter porn fan-fiction, hahaha.)
Ewwww. I barely can read fan fiction I stumble a description of one of those and I think that is why I stopped caring for the HP fan community is like reading about your parents doing it….ewwwww. :p
@susan #various
no probs on the drugs.
I guess the discovery thing was right for me, I need to feel that it could be me, or some such. But generally speaking, if it’s consensual then whatever floats your boat. I don’t judge it, it just doesn’t do it for me. Don’t want to see man on man (don’t care what they do, just don’t care to see it), woman on woman maaaaybeeee if they’re both good looking girly girls (might just be because I’d like a ‘walk-In’ part. Video girl on girl seems like a tease perhaps? Flirting is irritating to me as well; “don’t mess me around? Are we on, or not?” kind of attitude
Susan – When I’m watching something it’s definitely more of a voyuer point of view. I don’t/can’t subsitute myself into the scene, though with tv and movies I do sympathize with the characters.
If I’m reading erotica then in my mind’s eye I can insert myself into a more active role. However, even though I might have a first person point of view but I’m still not experiencing it as myself. This distinction is still there, so in a sense I have both an active role in the story AND a voyuer’s point of view all at once!
SayWhaat – I think it makes sense you would enjoy watching the video of two women wrestling. It’s more representative of “foreplay”. Most women (70%) don’t climax solely from penetration alone. For women foreplay (kissing, rubbing, touching, fingering, oral) plays a big role in getting off, so it makes sense you would be more aroused viewing that than watching a dude pump away in straight porn. Ironic as it may sound, I agree that it does play more into straight females’ sexual appetite!
Anacaona – That’s a good thing IMO! I’d love to be part of the 30%, but I also needed direct stimulation to get off (oy, this is definitely venturing toward TMI territory!).
It’s so interesting to hear everyone’s differences on this thread. Like purplesneakers, I love fan fiction! Have written a bunch too, but not for the Harry Potter fandom.
Oh, I like this! I have a body ratio of .76, trying to get down to .75
And I really have to get that trait sarcasm off my list though.
Hi Susan!
I think, in loving a person what goals you set is not actually what’s gonna happen or maybe its the opposite of that. What I mean if you set standard of the person you like, you always end up having someone who actually the exact opposite or maybe not all correlated with your standard. I always remember the saying ” The person you love is always the exemptions of your standard.” I sometimes realize that this saying is infact true. If you truly love that person, you have full hope to change her and vice versa. What matters most is that you enjoy your company and you both respect each others and the rest will follow.
Byron said:
“Men reaching out when vulnerable much -perhaps most- of the time only makes them more vulnerable, & they run a very great & real risk of losing status in the eyes of the world & attractiveness in the eyes of their partner in a way women really just don’t ever experience to anything like the same degree.”
______________________
Gentlemen, read this and know it – hear it and believe. Some of you ladies are not going to like this – but I….AM….CORRECT. BYRON….IS….ALSO….CORRECT. Before immediately dismissing what I’m saying, ask yourself this:
“Who’s dated more women? Me or Dogsquat?”
I’ll need (at least R, preferably X rated) pictures of you with each girl for proof if you wanna play the numbers game.
There are some subtleties though:
It’s okay to get help executing a plan. “Hey, my house burned down. Please bring me 27 cubic yards of concrete and some window treatments. I’ll be at Home Depot buying 2 x 4′s.”
You might actually gain status with this one, particularly if you’re demolishing an obstacle in your (collective, meaning you and her) future. It’s also possibly beneficial if you’re exhibiting a manly skill – “Honey, please bring me the carbonic defibrillator. I’m almost done fixing this flux capacitor, and I need a hand with the reactor.”
You can also explain about emotional baggage (everybody’s got some) and how it affects you – but be brief, clinical, and use the conversation to set boundaries. Do this one time, and one time only. You DO NOT want to be whining about past girlfriends or the current one will take a giant metaphoric dump on your forehead.
Now, you absolutely can ask for (and sometimes receive) help with intractable emotional issues from a woman who loves your goofy ass. Hell, sometimes it’s necessary. A Weapons-Grade PTSD-having-guy-who-is-typing-this-now has done it, and benefited greatly from the love of a (very) few amazing women.
You’d better be paying close attention to how much you’re doing it, though. That help/reassurance/hand-holding/whatever is not without cost.
You come blubbering up to her with tears and snot running down her face because mommy and daddy didn’t love you enough – that shit’s like maxing out your Visa card. Enjoy it, make use of it, feel better – but start paying the balance down with man-currency. Post haste.
Men are not Women. Your girlfriend is not your therapist.
Ana-
Well, I’m “newer” than you are, still holding my v-card, lol. Not that I don’t like watching penetration in itself; it’s just that most of the videos of it are either just pumping in and out (which can be sexy provided the right context) or have the girl screaming ridiculously and faking orgasms (or the guys are just too unattractive to even take seriously, or even the women are incredibly fake-looking). They also pretty much all pander to the camera, which only exaggerates the fakeness of it. imo there’s not much real passion involved… just fake fake FAKE. It’s like it’s just a huge erect penis that exists in a void and then along comes some screaming silicone-breasted blonde-extensioned woman who just can’t help herself while making ridiculous faces at the camera. For example I would love to find some bdsm-themed videos that actually have some sort of psychological element to them.. but they’re all just anal torture. *shudder*
Byron-
The irony is, feminists seem to *want* female sexuality to work the same way male sexuality does. They want it to be the case that women care about good looks as much as men do, and this idea has become mainstream, with girls thinking that good looks mean anything. Men have also internalized this and think that women care about looks as much as they do. Because of the larger societal refusal to acknowledge that men and women work differently and think differently, we get “world’s sexiest man alive” propaganda and awkward bacholerette parties.
Well, I’m “newer” than you are, still holding my v-card, lol. Not that I don’t like watching penetration in itself; it’s just that most of the videos of it are either just pumping in and out (which can be sexy provided the right context) or have the girl screaming ridiculously and faking orgasms (or the guys are just too unattractive to even take seriously, or even the women are incredibly fake-looking). They also pretty much all pander to the camera, which only exaggerates the fakeness of it. imo there’s not much real passion involved… just fake fake FAKE. It’s like it’s just a huge erect penis that exists in a void and then along comes some screaming silicone-breasted blonde-extensioned woman who just can’t help herself while making ridiculous faces at the camera.
I don’t disagree with any of that logically I know is fake and I know the yelling is just “acting” and the “acting” is cringe worth it, the scenarios are implausible… it still turns me on more than the alternative I’m weird like that it looks like *shrugs*
Ana: “Wow it seems like that I’m only female fan of penetration in the board. I don’t know for me oral sex is akin to touch a warm up, never being satisfied just by it and I actually don’t mind skipping it to the penetration part. Is because I’m new? Maybe when I have the children I’ll change…”
No, not just you. That’s a sign of a very high-functioning relationship IMO. Mrs. Cuff is the same (I post this, because I know she has already done so on MMSL). Three children later and things are no different, other than her sex drive is… higher.
I’ll take penetration over oral action any day. Nice prelude to the “get down make love” part of things, but just a prelude….
Woohooo! I’m not alone.
I do wonder if men think blowjob is sex or if they do think of it as prelude of sex too? Guys? Not with a lot of details please.
Heh, like I said!
I suspect the women who strongly prefer oral, are really missing out on the whole-body orgasm thing. Which is low sexual function, just as a man who only lasts a few minutes, instead of as long as he wants.
Plain Jane trolling again.
I know more than a couple bisexual/lesbian women, who know how to give oral better than any man can. If they have experienced both, they prefer the g-spot vaginal orgasm over oral, and think of oral as an appetizer. If they haven’t, then they think oral is better.
We’ve even coached each other a bit on techniques. Bi women are great!
I suspect the women who strongly prefer oral, are really missing out on the whole-body orgasm thing. Which is low sexual function, just as a man who only lasts a few minutes, instead of as long as he wants.
Interesting do you know any links about this high and low sexual function? First time I hear this terms.
Once upon a time I used to like to receive oral all the way to finish. I still like it, but generally I don’t make it too far along before I want to “get on” and drill away. It isn’t lack of skill on my SO’s part so much as I get too riled up and can’t resist having my way with her.
The sessions where oral is part of the festivities for either or both of us also tend to be the really physical/passionate ones as well. For me it really adds a bit of urgency of sorts. Those end with heavy breathing, sweating, and either a deep sleep or a shower.
@Lip person
“The USA starting practicing circumcision back in the mid/late-ish 1800s as a method of punishing boys for masturbating.”
The USA seems to be different from the rest of the anglosphere when it comes to religion in general and circumcision in particular. Don’t know why but circumcision really seems a lot more common ‘over there’. I watched one of the episodes of the cosmetic surgery drama series (can’t remember the name), the one where his son attempts to circumsize himself because girls think that an uncut one is ‘ugly’. un-fucking-believable. The thing wasn’t designed for its aesthetics (clearly), that’s why it’s known as looking like the last turkey in the shop (the one nobody wanted to buy). Circumcision for improved looks? You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. It is what it is. For similar reasons women should not bother with labiaplasty (IMHO) (unless it’s really odd looking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labiaplasty)
Lip Person, Just,
“The USA starting practicing circumcision back in the mid/late-ish 1800s as a method of punishing boys for masturbating. ”
This is true, I wrote a post recently on it:
http://triggeralert.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/28000000-africans-to-be-genitally.html
but you can do your own research on it – look up Harvey Kellogg (the cornflake guy!), a complete quack whose vicious ideas took root in American childrearing because of Victorian prudery & fear of sexuality.
Circumcision of either sex is genital mutilation, carried out for the same reason, & America is by far the greatest proponent of it in the world. It’s a quite astonishing double-standard that I guess just keeps on rolling on without criticism because the U.S is still top dog & no-one cares about little boys.
@Byron
re Africa. Yeah, saw that piece of butchery on AVFM (maybe Spearhead?).
The ‘best’ bit was some of the african guys looking forward to not having to use a condom because once circumcised they were ‘immune’ to aids. how many men AND women have to die over this little atrocity? the surgery is misandric, but the fallout will cover both sexes…about six feet deep.
@Byron
didn’t know that you were English too. Howdy pardner as we English tend to say…
Masturbation memes…
UK – go blind
France – go deaf
US – have to shave palms (or is this UK originated too?)
any others?
“Intact guys have more sexual sensation and sensitivity. The foreskin contains 67% of the total amount of nerve endings in the penis. The glans of the penis was designed to be an internal organ, covered and protected by the foreskin when flaccid. If it’s permanently exposed (as in a circumcised penis) it develops layers of keratin, dries-out, and loses a significant amount of sensitivity.
Also the foreskin has a unique gliding action and acts as a natural lubricant. During sex or masturbation, the foreskin glides up and down, placing additional stimulation on other parts of the penis. Circumcised men don’t have this.”
Again, this is very true. I keep on trying to find a way to explain to circumcised men – & women, of course – a way for them to understand & imagine how an intact penis is actually supposed to feel like & work. The best I’ve come up with so far is this: The Eyelid.
If you feel the way the eyelid effortlessly slides over, moistens & protects the eyeball – & also how sensitive that eyeball itself is, not able to be exposed to the air for long without drying out & toughening up, or even be directly touched without at least feeling uncomfortable – well, that’s exactly how an intact penis feels & what the foreskin is for. The foreskin isn’t some extraneous piece of skin, it has a purpose, & that purpose is directly analogous to, as I’ve already said, that other intrinsic part of an intact body, the eyelid.
Just1x,
“Howdy pardner as we English tend to say…”
Aw man, you’re English too? Awesome, dude! We should, like, totally go, y’know, surfing? In.. Grimsby?
‘The ‘best’ bit was some of the african guys looking forward to not having to use a condom because once circumcised they were ‘immune’ to aids. how many men AND women have to die over this little atrocity? the surgery is misandric, but the fallout will cover both sexes…about six feet deep.’
Yep, as I said in that piece, the idea that circumcision prevents HIV infection (??!!!??!!) is immediately disproved just by looking at America itself: It has both by far the highest rate of circumcision in the developed world, & also, by some margin, the highest rates of HIV infection of the developed world. It’s where AIDS began, for God’s sake! Utter insanity.
Surfing in Grimsby, wow, living the dream!
Then perhaps hang gliding the crags around Cambridge?
Dawg,
“Men are not Women. Your girlfriend is not your therapist.”
It’s a hard pill to swallow but so true. Men should have that on a business card in their wallets, just to pull out & remind themselves periodically.
Because women have a hardwired to splurge & share when they are faced with a problem or feeling emotional (see Brizendine’s ‘The Female Brain’), & feel better after doing so, most of them project that onto men, which on one level is quite beautiful, as it comes out of empathy, & the wanting to help. But on another level it can feel selfish & manipulative, trying to get men to behave more like women just so that the terrain will feel more comfortable & familiar for them.
I’ve been meaning to write something recently about that old late-80′s Madonna song ‘Express Yourself”, where she tells all the girls they must ‘make’ their boyfriends ‘express how he feels’ because ‘only then you’ll know his love is real’. Something about that always stuck in my craw, somehow – just the insisting on applying female needs & behaviours somewhere they didn’t belong, & the lack of any moral thought going into ‘making’ a person behave in ways they clearly didn’t feel comfortable with, all on the whims of a woman who would probably dump the poor schmoe six months later for going on about his feeelings so much… “I don’t know what happened to him – I liked him much better when he was the strong, silent type…”
As JM demonstrated, you can share & bond & open up your heart & grow without dragging the one you love along to couples therapy. You can show your love without appearing on Oprah. Quietly learning the ins & outs of your partner by simply living & working alongside them over the years is a far deeper & more real bond than that created by demanding they hold the talking stick. If you look at most old couples that are still together at 80, that’s precisely how & why they got there.
I semi caught the results of some (perhaps dubious) research on tv (that beacon of truth) where they found some slight reduction in infection amoung the circumcised. Now what that research was worth? I don’t know. not my field, NO interest in getting chopped.
The theory given was interesting (NOT necessarily the same thing as being true). The inside of the foreskin took in small doses of infections during sex. This small dose caused the immunity system to start up on the infection early, before a serious infection level was reached. So men (and their subsequent partners) were better protected against developing serious infections. Kind of makes sense in an evolutionary way (still doesn’t make it true). The trouble with AIDS, according to the theory, was that the small dose wasn’t small enough to aid fighting it off – you just get infected.
If you’re looking for pseudo-science to ‘justify’ mutilating men, you’ll take any old cobbler’s. So, the UN and WHO did. Hey cheap foreskins to make women’s beauty products – oh yes they do!
Once again, this is NOT my area of expertise, I’m just passing on something interesting that I heard. Perhaps as reliable as ‘bloke down the pub told me’, if you’re lucky.
“The inside of the foreskin took in small doses of infections during sex… The trouble with AIDS, according to the theory, was that the small dose wasn’t small enough to aid fighting it off – you just get infected. ”
Yes, even if there happens to be a tiny grain of truth to this, & this is the case, you still have to wear a condom to prevent HIV transmission, so you’ve genitally mutilated 28 million African men for nothing but colonial arrogance & the continued imposition of twisted victorian sexual values.
The marginal difference shown in the small number of controversial – & ideologically biased – studies done in Africa probably has much more to do with the religious lifestyle lived by circumcised muslims, rather than any magical protection spell bestowed through the cutting off of body parts: a guy who’s bowing down to mecca 5 times a day is, statistically speaking, probably less likely than the average joe to be hitting the whorehouses every night.
Also, adult men who get circumcised are obviously going to be out of action a little bit so have simply less opportunity for sex than uncircumcised men during the course of that year. This probably shows up as a marginal difference when played out in large numbers.
Ana, I think I first heard the terms from a survey linked off Badger Hut: http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/10/25/reader-exercise-sexual-function-indexes-for-men-and-women/
I think women who only can get off on oral/vibrators, prefer it over of vaginal, or never have vaginal orgasms, are low-functioning in the sense of a male PE. They are technically orgasming, but really not experiencing the whole thing. My 2 cents.
Oh boy.
How did the conversation turn from what women prefer to watch in porn to what they prefer in real life? When did the switch occur?
Anyway, to the women who prefer to watch penetrative sex porn, kudos to you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
To the women who prefer to watch non penetrative sex porn, kudos to you as well. There is also nothing wrong with it.
I’m a part of the latter group. I have experienced both types of orgasms (clitoral and vaginal). I still prefer to watch lesbian porn or non penetrative sex porn. Why? It’s more believable than penetrative porn. The orgasms seem less fake, and the acting is less cringe worthy.
I think it’s funny how the conversation has switched over to a man telling women that they are low functioning sexually if they have only ever experienced clitoral orgasms or prefer them. Seriously, wtf? I’m not even a part of that group, yet the presumptuousness about it still irks me.
I see this conversation going down faster than a lead weight in water.
Simple, sassy. Ana said she prefers penetration, my wife agreed, and then Troll Bait came in as usual to derail it.
@ OffTheCuff
There was a bit of derailment. I’ll agree to that.
What I’m curious about is why you claim that women who only have clitoral orgasms or prefer them are low functioning sexually. That seems like a mighty big claim for a man to make.
I think it’s lower functioning, not low. And it’s my opinion about what happens in my bed, what I’ve seen with my own eyes, and what I accept. Nothing to do with you.
Lots of women are low-function since they cannot orgasm at at all, or cannot experience the various types (clitoral, vaginal, and breast). Those that can experience all three regularly are higher functioning than those who can’t.
After all, if some man said he could last up to 5 minutes in bed and had awesome orgasms, women would have no problem thinking HE is low functioning.
It’s this idea of functionality that I’m a bit confused with. I just don’t see how it can be related to the types of orgasms women have.
Also, I dated a guy for some time who couldn’t stay erect for more than 3 minutes. I considered he and I to be sexually incompatible. He wasn’t low functioning. He is just better suited for a woman with different preferences than mine.
“Lots of women are low-function since they cannot orgasm at at all, or cannot experience the various types (clitoral, vaginal, and breast). Those that can experience all three regularly are higher functioning than those who can’t.”
That’s actually not a bad description – I would never say a woman who prefers her clit being stimulated rather than penetration is of a lower order than someone else, but there’s definitely a greater spectrum of female desire & responsiveness in women than in men, & it probably is correct to say a woman who finds it extremely hard to come, either alone or with a partner, or isn’t even bothered about coming at all, is low-functioning, they’re certainly burning at a lower flame.
Please do not mistake my preference for penetration as meaning I do not derive pleasure from oral. I most certainly do. Hubby can send me skyrocketing, and once upon a time my gf did as well. but as great as that felt, I still NEED/WANT the penetration. I don’t really feel my most satisfied sans p-v action. My best whole body orgasms actually occur during p-v. That’s not the case for everyone. Some people get it from g-spot stim, others from oral or Bobbs. hey! Whatever works!
Lip-Person said:”Or their partners are low functioning for not being able to get them off”
Ehhhh……. disagree. Ultimately whether we cum or not is our own responsibility. It’s your orgasm, own it! If for some reason the one on one didn’t get me there you can be damn sure my fingers or toys are going to do the walking if needed. It’s a disservice to oneself to assume and expect your partner is gonna get you there. It’s beyond delightful when they do, but if your brain isn’t into it and your body isn’t feeling responsive, well, that’s not the partners fault.
Sass: “He wasn’t low functioning. He is just better suited for a woman with different preferences than mine.”
You can call it whatever you want, but I disagree completely. That’s low-function if not outright dysfunction. Something’s either messed up in his plumbing, or in his brain. If a person cannot walk a mile before his heart gives out, we don’t call it a “different preference”, we should call it for what it is.
“A partner might assume that a person is “low functioning” sexually if he or she doesn’t orgasm with them. Meanwhile he or she may orgasm just fine on their own or with someone else. At the point the skills or lack thereof need to be examined and some techniques taught.”
Maybe it’s just themselves. Skills do not make the man/woman. they are but a fraction. Doesn’t matter how skilled a lover one has, if one isn’t into the lover or the action.
“This is something entirely different than taking responsiblity for your own orgasm through masturbation, which is a given for most humans being that we twiddle with our twaddles from infancy onward.”
Being responsible for ones own orgasm doesn’t mean masturbation. The biggest sexual organ wwe have is our brain. If it’s not in on the action, highly doubtful orgasm will happen.
I do agree that men prefer younger women, although the 2.5 year difference is probably preferred by men in their early 20s. As men age, they tend to prefer women who are more than 2.5 years younger than them. For example, a man close to 40 would likely prefer a woman who is at least 5 years younger, especially if he wants to start a family.
I personally fail to understand why anyone would want a woman who argues and complains a lot – that is very unattractive to me. A woman with an attitude and who craves drama is a woman I don’t want.
Is lip person/Service plain jane?
“Is lip person/Service plain jane?”
Don’t know for sure, but that would be what OTC has told me.
Plain Jane alert! I remember she having this very same stupid argument a couple of times. So ignore her and let’s wait till Susan can ban her…again.
Aw, Jesus Christ, can’t we at least make her wear a bell or something?
I always feel soiled after dealing with her, nasty little pervert that she is. I feel like Clint Eastwood in ‘Play Misty For Me’. There’s something genuinely, seriously sick & wrong with her, creepy little insect.
Called it in 563.
Watch the pattern: Brand new handle, always entering at end of a long tangential thread with a strong contrarian stance, a solid understanding of all topics and jargon despite being “new”, sex-poz boilerplate feminist, always no introduction or hesitation.
Well-caught.
@Kurt
“I personally fail to understand why anyone would want a woman who argues and complains a lot – that is very unattractive to me. A woman with an attitude and who craves drama is a woman I don’t want.”
Well, the problem is that they can change *shudder* after you marry them, in fact that’s the horror of my ex-marriage; I woke up one morning married to my mother-in-law’s younger clone…the horror, the horror
Brand new handle,/i>
I will say that the new handle is usually related to a new discussion we have had. She had womb choice when were talking about female cheating for example, I think Plain Jane was something she picked when Susan was talking about female betas. So she is always stalking us and picks her handles accordingly.
well, ya know…. perhaps lipservice is an apt descriptor…….
perhaps lipservice is an apt descriptor
heh true but I’m also sure she picked up because we were talking about oral sex.
@Just1X
“Well, the problem is that they can change *shudder* after you marry them, in fact that’s the horror of my ex-marriage; I woke up one morning married to my mother-in-law’s younger clone…the horror, the horror”
That is a good point. Some women are good at hiding their true intentions and feelings – hopefully I don’t get stuck with a psycho like that.
I took Easter off, so am late responding here, but there is one comment I feel I must address, in the interest of providing accurate information to women, especially young women, who may be reading.
I find statements like this extremely problematic, as they tend to focus on specific kinds of female sexual response as an achievement. This views arousal and orgasm as comprising a hierarchy of sexual experiences, a progressive quest to reach new levels of accomplishment, with points awarded for new heights attained. In my experience, men tend to make statements like this more frequently than women do. I suspect it is because they view certain sexual responses as indicative of their own virility and sexual skill.
Female physiology varies widely, and in determining the quality of a woman’s sexual experiences, I believe there is only one relevant question:
1. Is the woman satisfied with the nature of her own sexual response?
I find any notion that the man should be satisfied with the woman’s sexual response deeply troubling. If a man is not aroused by his partner’s responses, then that couple is not sexually compatible. Of course, men want women to participate in an uninhibited way – for many women that letting go requires emotional intimacy. But what I’m addressing here is physiology, not psychology.
The Female Sexual Function Index, referenced here, is an instrument designed for research by AGBayer in search of a drug to alleviate pain or discomfort during intercourse. There are two aspects of the questionnaire that are worth highlighting, IMO. The first is that it is heavily focused on ascertaining the frequency of sex, with less frequent sex presumed to indicate avoidance of sex due to discomfort. That is not a valid metric for the general female population. Obviously, for the HUS audience, sexual functioning is not indicated by sexual frequency, as many women are not in committed relationships, and casual sex yields a very low rate of female orgasm (19%).
The second is that the questionnaire focuses on satisfaction. The more satisfied a woman is with her sex life, the higher the functioning score. Therefore, a woman with a low sex drive who has occasional orgasms that thrill her will get as high a score as a woman with a high sex drive who has whole body orgasms daily. And both would get a much higher functioning score than Bella, who has Persistent Sexual Arousal Syndrome, orgasming 100 times per day.
Re different kinds of female orgasms:
Orgasms may occur from a variety of stimuli. Bella, above, comes when she smells cologne or finds herself in darkness. Women may have orgasms by having their breasts touched, anus penetrated, vaginal penetration of various kinds, and of course clitoral stimulation. These orgasms are named according to the site of stimulation: vaginal orgasm, anal orgasm, clitoral orgasm, etc. However, the climax itself occurs in the clitoris. There is no such thing as breasts having an orgasm. Just as there is no such thing as a “testicle orgasm.” The clitoris is similar to the penis in function.
It should be noted that the likelihood of achieving orgasm via penile penetration alone relies on physiology. The ideal distance between the vagina and clitoris is said to be the width of a woman’s thumb. That’s close enough that every thrust tugs on the clitoris. Conversely, a distance of greater than 1 and 1/8 in. is said to make orgasm impossible via thrusting alone. Estimates of women in this latter group range from 70-80%. Not surprisingly, short women are more likely to enjoy a short distance between vagina and clitoris. Many women find that they can orgasm during penetrative sex by pressing their clitoris against the public bone of the male, by employing different positions and angle of entry.
Re whole body orgasms:
There is a tradition of expanded orgasm in writings of sacred and tantric sex. The term was popularized by Dr. Patricia Taylor in her 2000 doctoral thesis. After earning her MBA, Taylor was working as a money manager on Wall St.
“Her life changed dramatically after a spiritual encounter that awakened her Kundalini in 1985, and initiated her into the lineage of Kashmiri Shaivism. Three years later Patricia had her first expanded orgasm and began a journey to study how to create these experiences, and share with others the potential they hold and power they unleash. She received her PhD in Transpersonal Psychology in 2000. Her university, the International University of Professional Studies, is an unaccredited distance education school.” Wikipedia
“Distinguishing features of expanded orgasm are energetic sensations and contractions all over the body, especially in the abdomen, inner thighs, hands, feet, and genitals. Dr. Taylor describes reports of practitioners going into various altered states of consciousness, bringing about deep emotional release and rejuvenation, profound spiritual experiences, having awarenesses not normally perceived in regular orgasm, and perceiving energy expanding beyond the limits of their bodies.
Participants in Dr. Taylor’s study entered into expanded orgasmic states using various sexual practices or modalities. The top four modalities were; manual self-stimulation (60%), manual stimulation from a partner (35%), intercourse (30%) and oral stimulation (15%).”
Clearly, masturbation is the most frequent means of experiencing expanded orgasm, either alone or with a partner.
Finally, I feel compelled to offer some information about female ejaculation, as it is common to witness high fiving among males re this practice. In her new book What’s Up Down There?, gynecologist Lissa Rankin explains the most current findings:
”Studies of female ejaculate find that the fluid released contains glucose, fructose, prostatic acid phosphatase, and PSA, substances not normally present in urine. What confuses matters is that some women are indeed, incontinent, but this is distinctly different from female ejaculation. The fluid resembles fat-free milk, tastes sweet, and rarely exceeds a teaspoon in volume. If you’re soaking the bed during orgasm, it’s probably urine.”
I highlight this because videos that show women gushing large amounts of liquid, especially instructional videos, are entirely misleading. I suspect that many of the females are pumped full of water before filming. If there’s any kind of product recommended or linked by the video, you can assume it’s 100% fake. A woman may be ejaculating a teaspoon of ejaculate and never know it, and her partner may believe he “failed” her. Or if she did soak the sheets, he probably just succeeded in getting the woman to empty her bladder. There is nothing wrong with this, of course, and parties may find it enjoyable.
I hope this clears up any myths about female sexuality. I encourage women to resist any pressure to “achieve” or “perform” certain kinds of orgasms to please or gratify a lover. If a man is able to rock a woman’s world, however she defines that, I don’t believe it is appropriate for him to ask for, expect, or demand more with regard to her pleasure response. Obviously, his own orgasms are a different matter.
I think so. I’ve deleted her comments, albeit belatedly. Unfortunately, I have no better method. At times when I’m absent for a while, I encourage everyone to just ignore her. She’s been on HUS about four times in the last week under different names, with different IPs. The best we can do is withhold positive reinforcement.
Come on, Susan. Would we really have put a noose around your neck had you said, “Urinating in bed, and on your partner, is kind of disgusting.”
Just because something is natural, or normal, does not mean that it is not disgusting.
@Byron
I got a new slave bells anklet this weekend, but if it would help I’ll see if I can transfer it to her on her next sighting
Susan, thanks for that post. I just want to say that sometimes, I’m so grateful to be married to my husband, who doesn’t judge me based on porn metrics.
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