Women want their romance heroes to be like coconuts: hard and tough on the outside, but soft and sweet on the inside. But the hero’s sweet interior can’t be available to just anyone. Only the heroine gets to crack him open. The hero is granted free reign to be a badass with everyone else, as long as he’s tender and attentive with the heroine.
Ogi Ogas, A Billion Wicked Thoughts
The 50 Shades of Grey phenomenon has captured the worldwide attention of readers, industry observers and media outlets. Its publication is a remarkable success story that touches on several of my personal interests:
- Female psychology and sexuality
- Politics and feminism
- Literature and stories
- Business and economics
In researching this post, I came across quotes from readers, and reports from writers, but no journalist who had both read the book and discussed its significance. Last week I read the first two books in the trilogy, and will review the first book here. Please be aware that this post is a spoiler. It’s not possible to discuss the extraordinary event that is 50 Shades while attempting to hide the story’s arc and ending. If you don’t want to learn what happens in the book, stop here.
EL James originally wrote the story as Twilight fan fiction, posting it for free on her favorite fanfic site. 50 Shades bears little resemblance to the Twilight series on the face of it, but there are some underlying common themes:
- An innocent, socially awkward heroine with pale skin and dark hair. (Note the author’s appearance.)
- A powerful, enigmatic, damaged male.
- Love at first sight.
- Two parties so different in their wants and needs that a lasting relationship appears impossible.
- True love conquers all.
The Synopsis
Anastasia (Ana) Steele is a 21 year old college senior who has never dated a boy, much less had sex. In fact, she confesses at one point that she has never masturbated or even touched herself. She states that she has never met a man before who made her “want to be kissed.” She is deeply introverted, described as ordinary in appearance, and spectacularly clumsy: “gawky and uncoordinated.” She works part-time at a hardware store, her primary extracurricular activity. She has never owned a computer, and doesn’t even have an email address. An English major, she frequently references Tess of the D’Urbervilles. Her father died when she was young, and her mother is on husband #4. The book begins with Ana filling in for a sick roommate who’s editor of the student newspaper. She travels three hours to Seattle to interview Christian Grey, one of the college’s benefactors.
Grey is a 27 year-old telecommunications magnate. We never learn how he made his fortune, but we do learn a lot about his traumatic childhood. Like TV serial killer Dexter, he was adopted at the age of four, after he was found alone with the dead body of his crack whore mother, who had been dead several days. His chest is covered with cigarette burn scars.
He happens to be gorgeous – Ana describes him as the epitome of male beauty, having “intense bright gray eyes that regard me shrewdly.” He has unruly, copper-colored curls, a straight nose, and square jaw. Clumsy Ms. Steele literally stumbles, then falls into his office, which for some strange reason causes his eyes to glow hot with desire. Their meeting is all raised eyebrows and sardonic grins (Christian), combined with awkward pauses, blurting, stuttering and blushing (Ana).
Soon after, Grey saves her life from a crazed bike messenger, but when she falls into his arms with relief he warns “You should steer clear of me. I am not the man for you,” and “I don’t do the girlfriend thing.” Nonetheless, a few days later he sends her a $14,000 first edition of Tess, then invites her to his Seattle apartment for dinner, where she plans to lose her virginity. Once there, he asks her to sign a non-disclosure agreement, leading her to ask, “Does this mean you’re going to make love to me tonight, Christian?”
“No, Anastasia, it doesn’t. Firstly, I don’t make love. I fuck…hard. Secondly, there’s a lot more paperwork to do, and thirdly, you don’t yet know what you’re in for. You could still run for the hills.”
He shows her his Playroom, equipped with chains, cuffs, ropes, floggers, canes and bizarre metal instruments of all kinds. He proposes a three month trial contract, during which he will dictate nearly every aspect of her life: what she eats, wears, and how she exercises. She will be his “sub” every weekend, bending to his will and obeying him in all things. She must agree to keep her eyes cast downward unless given permission to gaze upon him directly.
Grey got his own start with kinky sex as a sub at 15, when a friend of his mother’s seduced and dominated him, regularly “beating the shit out of him.” That monogamous relationship lasted for 10 years, and he never made a single friend during that time, even at college. When it ended, he became a dom and has had 15 women under contract prior to Ana.
“I’m fully aware this is a dark path I’m leading you down, Anastasia.”
Anastasia demands time to mull it over, a few weeks during which Christian has vanilla sex with her in his bed and breaks many other of his rules, including sleeping in the same bed, introducing her to his mother and the rest of his family, flying her in his helicopter, then his glider. The one thing he refuses her is permission to touch his scarred chest. He prefers that her hands be pinned down or tied to prevent it. He uses a silk gray necktie to accomplish this. Desperate to touch the man she quickly falls in love with, this “hard limit” causes her deep anguish.
She never does sign the contract, but she does have sex as his sub three times. (They have vanilla sex many more times.) Twice he spanks her with his bare hand, and the third time she allows him to hit her with a feathery flogger. She is sexually aroused during these activities, but makes clear she would prefer a more “normal” sexual relationship. She tells him that she is submissive only to please him, and expresses her doubts that they are compatible. Finally, unable to delay his desire to inflict real pain, he whips her bare bottom with a belt six times, an experience she finds excruciatingly painful. When it’s over, sobbing, she ends their relationship, declaring that neither one can give the other what they want and need.
End of Part One (first in a trilogy)
The second book focuses on Grey’s trying to win her back as a man cured of the desire to control and harm. At this point, the relationship is extremely romantic and gentle. Grey’s aggressive tendencies are limited to those who would try to steal his girl away from him. He begs Ana never to leave him, and offers her marriage and children. He learns to enjoy her touch. It is a truly miraculous exorcism of demons.
The Review
The writing is terrible. Really, embarrassingly bad. James is English, and the book was originally published by a small Australian virtual publishing firm. Vintage has acquired the rights and will republish the book in the U.S. this month – let’s hope their editors make significant improvements. Focus Entertainment purchased the movie rights for $5 million.
James relies heavily on trite gimmicks, using them so repetitively in the book that they became a profound annoyance. One is the insertion of the italicized “oh my” whenever Ana feels a surge of sexual attraction for Christian. By my count, this is inserted into the narrative 68 times. She also says “holy cow” a lot, 82 times by Maureen Dowd’s count.
Another is Christian’s constant remarking on Ana’s biting her bottom lip. She does this so frequently it’s surprising it isn’t bruised and bloodied, and whenever he notices this behavior in public Christian “growls” a command that she save it for later. (Grey is very fond of growling.)
The Phenomenon
50 Shades was published in June, 2011, and became #1 on the New York Times bestseller list last month. There’s been little distribution of the printed version; 90% of its sales have been for e-readers.
The original buyers were followers of EL James’ previous fan fiction, and the book became a word of mouth sensation almost immediately. Indeed, the publishing industry is reeling over the potential in the formula “fan fiction + erotica + digital delivery = big bucks.” It’s being hailed as the secret to revitalizing the industry.
Forbes reports that Harper Collins has founded a new division called Mischief just for these kinds of properties:
Surprised and pleased by the sudden interest in the romance sub-genre, publishers are scrambling to ride the wave, saying Fifty Shades will likely generate a fresh cycle of female-targeted erotica packaged for the mainstream reader.
…Where there’s money to be made, the industry will follow. HarperCollins UK last week announced the launch of Mischief, its new erotic romance e-book imprint. It will push titles like Red Grow the Roses, an “original and thrilling vampire erotica” novel, and Sisters in Sin, a “haunting and intensely arousing” tale of a woman’s travels in Italy. Mischief executives say the imprint has been in the works for a year and is not a direct response to James’ series, but admit they are thrilled with the lead-in it provides.
For a look at the popularity of the romance genre, consider these sales numbers for 2011:
- Romance: $1.37 billion
- Inspirational: $759 million
- Mystery: $682 million
- Sci Fi and Fantasy: $559 million
- Literary Fiction: $455 million
Who are the women buying 50 Shades? There’s a perception that the original demographic was largely a married, over 30 crowd, though the evidence is strictly anecdotal. The Christian Science Monitor interviewed one reader and blogger:
In Shari Von Holten’s neighborhood, it started with a buzz among friends on Facebook. Then Van Holten’s Long Island neighbors started asking each other about the book the street, discreetly, or during chance encounters at the market. “My friends were saying things like: ‘I just finished it, it’s the best,’” says Von Holten. Intrigued, she floated the title at her book club’s next meeting, and the women quickly agreed to read it for March.
Media outlets have snarkily dubbed it “mommy porn” as a result. An article in The New York Times suggests the book has massive crossover appeal:
We’re making a statement that this is bigger than one genre,” said Anne Messitte, the publisher of Vintage Anchor, who discovered the book when a colleague at Random House slipped her a copy. “The people who are reading this are not only people who read romance. It’s gone much broader than that.
…This book has been credited with something else: introducing women who usually read run-of-the-mill literary or commercial fiction to graphic, heavy-breathing erotica.
Many readers have expressed that they’re bringing their newfound sexual arousal to their own bedrooms:
In the cities and suburbs of New York, Denver and Minneapolis, the women who have devoured the books say they are feeling the happy effects at home.
“It’s relighting a fire under a lot of marriages,” said Lyss Stern, the founder of DivaMoms.com and one of the early fans of the series. “I think it makes you feel sexy again, reading the books.”
Julie Gerstenblatt agrees, describing her enthusiasm at HuffPo:
Here’s the fun (funny? strange? uncomfortable to admit?) part: When you put the book down, you will actually want to have sex with your husband. Like, a lot.
After 13 years of marriage, it’s a damned revelation.
“Matt’s exhausted,” my friend, Sarah, told me.
“Jim’s excited that there’s a sequel!” another friend said.
“It’s actually a trilogy,” Sarah said, slightly awe-struck. With over 900 pages of E. L. James on our bedside tables, we could all be having sex with our husbands… indefinitely.
“Jeff and I are going away this weekend – should I bring this book?” Amy asked.
“Yes!” We told her.
Yes, I tell you. Yes, and yes, and oh, baby, yes.
Reportedly, stores in NYC have seen a sharp increase in the sales of gray silk ties. Publicist Alison Brod told the New York Post that the novel is “the new Kabbalah for female bonding in this city.”
Not surprisingly, some men find the phenomenon unnerving. Fox News reports:
While women are applauding the book, some men are expressing concern over whether women should be insulted by a plot dominated by a man who tells a woman when to sleep, eat, work out and even how to groom herself. Television host Dr. Drew Pinsky recently called the book a “rape fantasy.”
Frank Santo at the New York Daily News read 50 Shades on his Kindle while commuting on the subway, and found it profoundly discomfiting.
I’M JUST READING A BOOK ABOUT SPORTS OVER HERE FOLKS, I’M JUST A GUY READING ABOUT SPORTS.
This experience, needless to say, was unpleasant. As is so often the case with sexual matters, this book left me feeling confused, bothered and seriously doubting whether or not I understood what was going on.
Ultimately, he rejected any notion of a romantic storyline.
Firstly, and I can’t believe anyone would argue otherwise, “50 Shades of Grey” is pornography, plain and simple. There could be no other use for it. The narrative is comprised of 9 or 10 lengthy yet well-paced sex scenes tied together with some mindless, almost purposefully banal filler about Anastasia Steele’s college life. I think I remember Christian Grey playing a piano in one scene. That happened right? I don’t know, I was extremely anxious and uncomfortable the whole time. But this is exactly why this book matters. It manages, miraculously, to be at once pornographic and deeply unappealing to men – it is a kind of pornography that attracts only women, and thus far it is selling off the charts.
Alecia Simmonds, writing in the Australian publication Daily Life, disagrees, seeing 50 Shades as traditional romance fiction:
This is not to suggest that the tedious prose or conceptual vapidity of E. L. James should be compared with Austen, Bronte, Smith or Rousseau. But romance has the potential to explore the relationship between power and intimacy, which, in relegating romantic fiction to the trivial, we seem to have collectively ignored.
Of course women are also reading erotic romance for the same reason as we scoured our parents’ bookshelves for The Joy of Sex when teenagers. It offers a pulse-quickening, delicious delight. There is an absence of good erotic writing in serious literature and a puritanical disdain for literary descriptions of sex. We applaud literature if it makes us weep or inspires indignation. Rarely do we give credit when a book leaves us breathless, coy and pleasurably twitching.
But she also claims the sub-dom theme is a new low:
More than anything, the book shows us how much mainstream porn – with all its hair-pulling, choking and fantasies of violence – has made BDSM seem terribly ordinary. What were once transgressive sexual practices have become standard mumsy desires.
I’m nor so sure. I recall reading Diana Gabaldon’s Outlander in the 90s, the first in a series of highly successful romance novels set in the 1700s. In it a woman’s husband beats her when she misbehaves, and the sexual tension is palpable. They are both aroused by it. This proved controversial and was ultimately justified by pointing out the novel was set in a time when wives were property. That didn’t prevent contemporary women from considering the book extremely sexy, however.
Rachel, a 39 year-old lawyer who spoke with ABC News, describes what I think resonates most for many women:
“I loved the book — all three,” said Rachel, who has been married to her husband since she was 19 and has a healthy sex life. “But this is pretty hard-core porn.”
“The first book is very, very graphic and harsh with a lot of S & M – and quite frankly, did not do it for me,” she said. “I would never try anything with pain.”
But, she got hooked on the romance that develops in the second book, when Steele tries to change Grey. “What I loved was that it was a great love story.”
The heart of the romance is the notion of submission and the way in which Steele accommodates Grey to “make him love her,” according to Rachel.
“She sees being submissive as a necessity to save him,” she said. “He was broken. That was more of the appeal. And the sex was a bonus.”
The Backlash
From the New York Times article:
The trilogy has its detractors. Commentators have shredded the books for their explicit violence and antiquated treatment of women, made especially clear in the character of Anastasia, an awkward naif who consents to being stalked, slapped and whipped with a leather riding crop.
“What I found fascinating is that there are all these supermotivated, smart, educated women saying this was like the greatest thing they’ve ever read,” said Meg Lazarus, a 38-year-old former lawyer in Scarsdale, whose friends and acquaintances have been buzzing about the book. “I don’t get it. There’s a lot of violence, and this guy is abhorrent sometimes.”
Other feminists have found the book true to the goals of sex positive feminism. From Fox News:
Jill Filipovic, a blogger with Feministe.com told Fox411.com that because the book depicts a consensual relationship (Steele does sign that contract), she is unconcerned.
(Note: This is incorrect, as Steele never does sign the contract. She does consent to being tied at the wrists and hit on three occasions, which is the mildest form of domination stipulated in the contract. But Grey makes nearly all of the concessions. He never performs any act without her permission, though he does several times ask Steele to trust him rather than disclose what he has in mind. The sex in the book barely ventures out of vanilla territory, and when it finally does, Ana ends the relationship.)
“Amy Robach for NBC News says that the novel answers the age old question of what women really want. Never mind being left breathless or captivated, says Robach, this book makes it clear that domination and submission are on the minds of most American women.”
“We had the women’s movement which really was about empowering women not to be submissive to men anymore. Now we’ve moved onto a new generation where women are more empowered than ever before, the glass ceiling has been broken and we have as much control as we want. And what are we longing for? A little bodice ripping,” answers author Laura Berman to NBC.
The always insightful James Taranto at the Wall St. Journal agrees:
Female and male pornography are very much two sides of the same coin. While the former tends to be literary and the latter visual, neither has much pretension of being high art (except when such pretensions are useful in First Amendment cases). More interestingly, both present a similar sexual fantasy world, in which women are submissive and men dominant–though because each sex is interested in its opposite, female porn emphasizes the male-dominance aspect of the fantasy and male porn the female-submission aspect.
Bennett, Dowd and Bruni all puzzle over the seeming contradiction between the success of feminism in “empowering” women and the cultural products of which the trio disapprove. It should be noted that neither dirty pictures nor dirty books (“romance novels,” as they’re euphemistically called) are anything new. But it may be that they have become more graphic, more popular or both. At the very least, it is clear that the sexual fantasies of men and women do not conform to the feminist ideal of relations between generic and equal “persons.”
Taranto, who happens to be the only mainstream journalist I’ve ever seen write about hypergamy, goes on to share the work of anthropologist Heather Remoff, who studied female mating preferences in the 70s. Interviewing 66 women about their combined 261 sexual partners, they cited 23 different traits correlated to male sexual success:
- good-looking (43%)
- intelligent (40%)
- good income potential (40%)
- control of social resources (37%)
- food provided (36%)
- control of material resources (36%)
- protective toward female (35%)
- male older (30%)
- male dominant toward female (28%)
- confident (26%)
- well-educated (23%)
- good build (23%)
- aggressive (22%)
- generous (22%)
- accurate focus (21%)
- chemistry (21%)
- eye contact (19%)
- baby fantasies (18%)
- outstanding talent (17%)
- high status (16%)
- tall (16%)
- good with children (15%)
- female’s parents approved (5%)
The attraction to most of these traits is a manifestation of female hypergamy–especially “good-looking,” which turns out to have quite a different meaning for women than for men: “Every woman responds to a man whose looks correspond to her particular stereotype of power,” Remoff observes in a passage she italicizes.
This effort to equalize the sexes has created a sexual disequilibrium. For a high-status or powerful woman, a higher-status or more powerful man is hard to find. Although that works out nicely for the highest-status men, it is much more difficult for the average man to make himself an attractive prospect for women. Result: a lot of lonely people of both sexes, and an eager market for pornography of both the visual and literary kinds.
Ogi Ogas, author of A Billion Wicked Thoughts, explains the dual nature of the female’s fantasies:
The majority of women have submission fantasies. From classic romance The Flame and The Flower to classic erotica The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty to Twilight BDSM fan fiction (SW: e.g., 50 Shades), submission themes are immensely popular in cross-cultural female erotica. The fact of the matter is that most heterosexual women are wired to find sexual submission arousing–and so are most female mammals.
For the vast majority of romance readers, the hero should be a strong, confident, swaggering alpha. “I think this is one of the problems we’re having in romance in general right now: our heroes have gotten a little too PC. We’re portraying men the way feminist ideals say they should be – respectful and consensus-building,” muses erotic romance author Angela Knight.
Women just don’t want a nice guy – they want an alpha who learns to be nice to her. Women are designed to look for clues that there is a sweet interior worth getting at. Kindness and understanding are most attractive with the tough shell of alpha-hood.
Men are aroused by being dominant and by submissive women, women are aroused by being submissive and by dominant men. In the bedroom, inequality beats equality. Negotiating sexual politics has always been difficult, but paradoxically the laudable and necessary victories of gender equality activism might make it even more challenging. We’re all figuring out how to live in the first society in human history where women have such power, independence, and clout. But just as democracy has no effect on our basic taste preferences for sugar and fat, democracy doesn’t affect our basic sexual preferences for domination and submission.
Fifty Shades of Grey is the first blockbuster novel to entirely bypass the behemoth publishing industry and the mainstream media. It exploded on the scene thanks to word of mouth among readers, aided by the discreet digital format. No feminists or feminist-leaning institutions had the opportunity to influence the content or its delivery. Despite the poor writing quality, 50 Shades delivers what contemporary women are starving and clamoring for. Anastasia Steele gets her coconut; hard and tough on the outside, soft and sweet on the inside. That’s the ultimate female fantasy.
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>> “For example, most of Ana’s orgasms occur only after Christian (growling again) says, “Graaarghghg, come to me, baby,”
This made me LOL. …I think the “Graarghghg” in my head sounds different from how EL James meant for it to sound.
Posted while JM’s away, eh?
I read about this book on the stir and recognized it as complete dreck. It’s sexual twilight and complete rubbish.
Yet very telling. once I haez her naked I disregard what she says (unless it’s, “ow, stop.”), sit back and enjoy the ride Dear…..Danny’s driving.
Prepares for the impending sh*t storm in 5…4…3….
DUH!!!
I haven’t been saying stuff like this for my own health.
Some people are just extremely reluctant to hear it.
>> “Anastasia demands time to mull it over, a few weeks during which Christian has vanilla sex with her in his bed and breaks many other of his rules, including sleeping in the same bed, introducing her to his mother and the rest of his family, flying her in his helicopter, then his glider”
Also: It’s sh*t like this that gives girls the idea that their Magical Vagina is all it takes to convert an asshole into their personal snuggle-bunny.
(I know I mentioned this like two seconds ago in another thread, but seriously it bugs.)
That book sounds atrocious.
Anyway women submissive, man dominant. I don’t get it. Is this like long lost knowledge?
I figured this out when I was 8 and found porn (adventurous lil bugger I was).
Only part I find disturbing.
Up-spike in gray tie sales. If thats not trying to put yourself in the story…
Too bad though, I beat this poor guy to it.
My favourite suit is silver shirt with silver tie. That tie has been well aquanited with my bed post many times over the past 6-8 years.
@ Saywhaat
It’s a good thing that she did. I don’t think we would be able to pull him back from the edge otherwise.
This is very interesting to think about. I’m wondering how to reconcile this with the fact that I am naturally drawn to artsy, creative types. Somehow that is a form of power, but I can’t put my finger on the particular nature of that power.
“What 50 Shades of Grey Tells Us About the Nature of Female Fantasy”
Virtually nothing.
“Women want their romance heroes to be like coconuts: hard and tough on the outside, but soft and sweet on the inside. But the hero’s sweet interior can’t be available to just anyone. Only the heroine gets to crack him open. The hero is granted free reign to be a badass with everyone else, as long as he’s tender and attentive with the heroine.”
Such a heroine may be a sociopath and I wouldn’t want her. Healthy people want partners who are kind and personable toward fellow humans.
Personally, I love this story. I think it should be required reading for ever Nice Guy out there. This is what women really want. Remember that when you’re putting them on a pedestal.
@SayWhaat
How about that “artsy” denotes a kind of intellect (a dark and brooding one at that) unavailable to most.
It’s not power but a kind of intellectual superiority that pretends to be uncorrupted by money and concerned only with beauty.
“This is what women really want.”
Ok so all women want “chains, cuffs, ropes, floggers, canes and bizarre metal instruments of all kinds” now? Good grief.
Lol. So hard and badass on the outside, soft and emotional on the inside…
Well I got the soft center right. Lol
And all these women are excited by the new found energy at home. Totally sad. I still stand by my previous statement. If my SO got all randy and jumped me after reading some emo-porn book and I found out, I would be disappointed and saddened at best, straight up angry at worst.
I wouldn’t go to a strip club to get all fired up and go home expecting her to be thrilled about my desire to vent my sexual tension built on ogling other women’s gyrating asses, and I don’t want her unloading sexual tension built up mentally ogling some imaginary alpha asshat. If we get to a point that it takes that much outside stimulus to get us “in the mood”, I think we would be better off calling it quits.
I know I can’t be everything to my SO, but I damn well intend to be everything she needs sexually. If I can’t do that, then I’m not the right guy for her.
I thought about reading this when it first came out but didn’t bother because every reviewer said the writing was atrocious. It interesting that the women are curious about this book and the men are sort of turned off.
The characters are too unbelievable. Also in 2012 could a college student really make it through four years of school without a computer or email?
@ Maggie
There is so much that is unbelievable about this story, it isn’t even funny. I have a hard time believing that a woman who is described as “plain looking” could attract the interest of a supposed adonis. Seriously?
Whenever the man is significantly better looking than the woman in a relationship, most women’s reactions are a variation of “Why is he with her?”.
We’re also supposed to believe that such a prudish virgin would suddenly give it all up for that guy?
I think I’ll pass on reading it.
Whoa whoa whoa, let’s back off the virgin-shaming for a bit, shall we?
Joe,
I think that’s a good part of it, yes. Possibly also that they have the power to influence trends, or social change. To some extent, at least.
@ Saywhaat
I’m not shaming her. I’m describing her. This is what we have been told:
She’s never masturbated. She’s never kissed anyone. She’s never had sex. According to Merriam-Webster, a prude is defined as:
She is a prude. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing at all.
In all seriousness though, are we supposed to believe that she suddenly stopped caring about modesty and her virginity for that guy?
(I know I mentioned this like two seconds ago in another thread, but seriously it bugs.)
Cosign this. Although is only the idiots that believe this universe works in the same way. Now the question is how many idiots are out there?
It’s a good thing that she did. I don’t think we would be able to pull him back from the edge otherwise.
I’m tempted to ask Susan to erase the post before he comes back. Ted is JM light (and I mean in the sense “nothing can turn on my woman but me” mental thinking) and he is not taking it well. Poor JM head is going to explode and he is going to smoke chain till Christmas if he reads this.
This is very interesting to think about. I’m wondering how to reconcile this with the fact that I am naturally drawn to artsy, creative types. Somehow that is a form of power, but I can’t put my finger on the particular nature of that power.
Who told you that power has only one face? There is something about art and creativity that you find that stands out. Is like me and nerds buffed guy that spent lots of time on the gym and/or picking women? Boring, common, nothing special about him. Nerdy guy that plays warhammer and video games? HOT, HOT, HOT. For me there is no merit on the first and lots of merit on the second
The characters are too unbelievable. Also in 2012 could a college student really make it through four years of school without a computer or email?
Heh that was my first WTF?! I mean not even in the most remote town of my third world country a 21 year old doesn’t have an email account. She might check it once a month because she can’t afford to have a computer at home, but NONE? Not in this world, is was just a way to make her both “special snowflake with extra vanilla” and isolated her enough that when he takes her to expensive surprise trips she won’t be missed. Cheap cop out IMO.
Poorly worded thoughts off the top of my head:
We know that girls in school are at a huge advantage compared to boys. This means that the “power” balance shifts towards girls, who are enabled to be more narcissistic than ever. That would create a lot of Mean Girls. We can also see that effeminate, metrosexual boys are becoming the norm for idolization. If Mean Girls are indicative of power, then perhaps more and more girls are attracted to effeminate-looking men because they look like they wield a masculinized/hermaphrodite form of feminine power?
In all seriousness though, are we supposed to believe that she suddenly stopped caring about modesty and her virginity for that guy?
Well I was all “panty’s are for suckers” for the firs time in my 27 years of life when my husband gifted me with a ring. We prudes all need is the right guy doing the right thing and all bets are off. So I don’t find that part unbelievable at all, YMMV.
Picture didn’t post. This is what I was trying to refer to:
http://www.signsfunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/men-then-and-now.jpg
(How does one post pictures in a comment?)
Ana – I’m good, but thanks for the concern.
I was upset when the subject first came up in the other thread but I’m not all riled up now. And for the record, I get that other men may or may not turn my SO on. I simply don’t want her to come to me as a proxy for them. I want her to want me for me, not because she got all hot and bothered thinking about another man, real or not. I don’t come to her after watching hours of porn looking to unload my self inflicted blue-balls, and I don’t expect her to do it either.
@SayWhaat
Harrison Ford is my all time favorite actor.. unless it’s Russell Crowe in “Gladiator” and they didn’t have to whip or tie up women to be totally hot.
SayWhaat…”I’m wondering how to reconcile (what the anthropologist said) with the fact that I am naturally drawn to artsy, creative types. Somehow that is a form of power, but I can’t put my finger on the particular nature of that power.”
Note that what she said was “Every woman responds to a man whose LOOKS correspond to her particular stereotype of power” (emphasis added)….within the universe of artsy, creative types (as defined by personality), surely there are some whose physical appearance appeals to you more than others. Perhaps that’s where the look-of-power comes in.
Also, it’s dangerous to assume that just because a professor says something it’s necessarily true…
Just to warn people this post (well, really the book) is going to inspire a rant or two.
My impression based on your review is warmed over O and Sir Stephen cliches repackaged with bad writing and less interesting sex.
Yes, and dangerous misinformation at that.
Submission does not equal passivity. That is the first big complain. We get a lot of female submissive coming into the lifestyle who think submissive = passive to the point of doormat. While we get a lot of male with that thought process the more common issue for us is that we have a hard time believing we are masculine at all because we are submissive (something I really started to overcome by being around gay men in the lifestyle).
Also, I like how you analyze it, dominant and submissive routines. In an actual D/s relationship the emotional bond is present and important. Yes, D/s couples will often have rituals and protocols to reinforce or emphasize their chosen roles they are not routines (as an aside in observing successful vanilla couples they often have as much protocol and ritual as successful D/s couples, they just don’t consciously develop or embrace it…I think a lot of vanilla people could benefit from one or two of the protocol classes I’ve attended).
This tells me the author has no real S&M experience. A competent top would warm up a partner unless going for a specific effect. Even then, six hard strokes with a belt wouldn’t be excruciating to anyone with even normal pain tolerance. Most belts are stingy and quickly disapate. Belts heavy enough to be thuddy aren’t very good toys for swinging. For example, my normal every day belt is a heavy holster belt. While stripping for a scene I always offer Ma’am my belt, but she rarely uses it to strike and it is about the least painful thing she uses. Belts are better for bondage.
I wish I could say this was as unrealistic as the belt bit. In one sense of the word it is. The odds of building a functional D/s relationship from this starting point even with both partners experienced is almost nil (in fact, an experienced sub who is thinking wouldn’t even engage the offer). There are a bunch of warning signs I’ll get to in a minute.
However, before moving on I have to say, “Really” with the downcast stuff. That is so over done. It also hampers the Dominant. The eyes are powerful tools to read someone and especially early on a common check-in while in headspace is to look into a submissives eyes. This is especially useful if they have non-verbal or partially non-verbal.
And this is why this book is so dangerous. Twenty years ago pre-internet finding other S&M people was hard. As a by-product the community did a lot of screening of new people.
In the internet age with collarme and bondage.com it is very easy for a bored housewife to go online and get herself in trouble. This will only make it worse.
I’m sure the munches (public place gatherings of people into kink to meet and network and where newbies are directed) are going to be filled with women who read this tripe. As it is, new femsubs are like chum in shark infested waters at a lot of munches. This will probably make it much worse for the rest of the year, especially if there is a movie.
Remember how above I said that three month contract is unrealistic and had warning signs. Well, it wasn’t unrealistic in the doesn’t happen sense. In fact, this part:
Do the math…that’s 15 femsubs in about two years…at full three month trials it would take almost four to hit that number.
There are plenty of male “dominants” in the lifestyle (although usually not welcome much in the community) who fit that to a tee. And their prey is exactly the kind of women who apparently is reading this.
Remember I said warning signs: non-disclosure agreement is one. I’m not a newbie and when Ma’am said she’d like an initial contract I discussed it with others. Even before playing with her the first time I checked references in the scene (and she checked mine…while straight Femdoms face less risk, being the top in S&M play opens you to legal charges if the bottom wants to fuck you over).
Second, he wants to dictate the terms. He probably has it pre-written in Word and just changes the name. Meanwhile we first discussed the idea in August and have yet to sign one (althoug I have been wearing a possession marker since February and I’m known as Her boy locally). That’s an unusually long time for a variety of reasons, but the things are negtiated. He would normally present it for her to edit and they’d go back and forth.
However, there are plenty of “don’t tell anyone and here’s a contract” “dominants” just waiting for the Grey Girls. They’ll find them on CollarMe or at a munch and throw everything they ever learned about safe dating out the window. For some reason, 30+ women first going out into the scene forget every dating rule for blind dates: safe calls, letting people know where you are, checking up, not revealing personal info too soon, etc. Six month later mentally, emotionally, and maybe even physically scared they’ll either be back to vanilla life with real damage or out in the scene getting a clue.
Sadly, the one munch they need to attend, their local submissives only munch, is the one they won’t find until it’s too late.
This book is going to be a trainwreck for a lot of women.
I simply don’t want her to come to me as a proxy for them. I want her to want me for me, not because she got all hot and bothered thinking about another man, real or not.
So you rather have her masturbate?
http://www.signsfunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/men-then-and-now.jpg
I don’t know a single Robert Pattinson fan that find him sexy in that pic, too young and skinny now he is skinny strong and full of “jaw porn”. That was an exaggeration of the meme for sure.
Hi, first time commenter, but have been reading this blog for awhile. I’ve always been interested in human sexuality – I’ve enjoyed reading about feminism (a totally verboten thing on here apparently) but also psychology, psychoanalysis, evolutionary psychology, evolution and everything in between. I’m fascinated on how human sexuality works and how it works within the context with our modern society as well as since time began.
Speaking as someone who grew up reading sexual and erotic literature for pleasure from a fairly young age (1o years old..I was precocious and spent a lot of time at the library searching for adult stuff
) this book sounds to me as being pretty boring/lame. In my experience sexual literature can be very arousing to women because there’s a context and tease and mental element there that is harder to find in ‘regular’ porn but that appeals to the slower arousal in many women. I don’t mind ‘regular’ porn myself, but I need something to get me up to the point where I find the visual stuff appealing – it’s almost too graphic too quickly for my liking. I just like the literature for the mental erotic build up to the more pornographic stuff (plus I can imagine how the people look in my head, I don’t have to pretend to ignore aesthetic stuff in porn I find unappealing like overly fake breasts or *gag* long painted fingernails on women thrusting into body parts where long fingernails make me cringe in imagined discomfort. I don’t mind graphic descriptions or depictions of sex at all, I guess for me a lot of the appeal is the mental titillation that goes along with it.
As far as the feminism versus women enjoying submission in bed thing. I look at it as this. Our erotic imaginations are rooted in many ‘animalistic’ ways or ‘deviant’ ways and that’s a great thing – sex shouldn’t be politically correct, it’s adult playtime and we should see it as acting out or enjoying those things that are dirty/forbidden. It’s how I see men enjoying video games. Maybe you don’t want to go out and kill other people for so many good reasons but those basic instincts still exist and because not many people go to battle anymore I think living out those urges via video games is a great way to let off those urges/steam in an enjoyable way without hurting anyone because we recognize it as fantasy.
I sort of see sex in a similar way. In my normal life and in my romantic life I actually really like ‘beta’ men (probably because my dad, who is awesome, is definitely a good one and that’s how I like my guys too). I actually am turned off by so called ‘alphas’ and always have been because I find their posturing obnoxious and like guys who are quieter, gentler intellectuals. And if they treat me, in regular life, as an equal in ideas, in work and as a human being with validity, then we can happily proceed sexually/romantically in more stereotypical masculine/feminine power roles (or anything we enjoy) because sex is fun and your animalistic brain likes what it likes I guess.
It’s fine by me because if I know he doesn’t really treat me like I’m under his thumb in real life then I can let go in order to play out those roles in private time. It’s how I rationalize both sides to me and has certainly worked out for me so far and I’ve never had to deal with sexual guilt while retaining my personal morality in terms of how I wish to live my daily life and how I wish to be viewed as both a woman and a person.
I guess that was long but that’s my two cents. I don’t always agree with everything in this blog but I do enjoy reading it so thanks for the discussion!
Where is the evidence that men prefer being dominant? If you look at the BDSM forums, the majority of both sexes wants to be submissive.
I really think the Hawley theory makes more sense: The more dominant people are outside of the bedroom, the more submissive they are in the bedroom. And vice versa. Women are having submissive fantasies BECAUSE they are gaining power, not in spite of it.
I’m more of a peach than a coconut. When I’m with women I’m not interested in, I’m a total nice guy. I’d rather be diplomatic than dominant. But when I’m with a woman I like I become more alpha. At first I tease her a little bit, then I start openly staring at her boobs. As the relationship progresses, I’ll get more and more possessive and dominant. There must be some women who prefer peaches because the strategy seems to work for me.
@GudEnuf
Straight submissive men are so common Jay Wiseman points out they’re a dime a dozen in SM101. He was supprised at his first event. He figured everyone would be Dominant and there would be no submissives. Out of over 20 people there were only three Dominants.
I will semi-agree here. For casual players and men who visit pros (and probably their growing female client lists as well) this is probably very true. For those who go further and has D/s relationships as opposed to playing at the club on Saturday not so much.
In fact, I know many people who will argue slaves (as opposed to submissives…within the lifestyle they are not the same thing) tend to have more dominant personalities even though they prefer having the submissive role in a relationship, to the point of out subbing submissives. I’m still of mixed opinion of that idea (I first heard it strongly put forth last month at SPLF) but it does track with most self-identified slaves I know.
“This book is going to be a trainwreck for a lot of women”.
I think for most women this book will remain just fantasy. Maybe they’d get their husband or boyfriend to tie them up, but not much beyond that. It might inspire them to read more submissive fantasy books and there will probably be lots of writers trying to cash in on this genre, but I don’t think they’ll be going out into the real world looking for a submissive relationship.
And you think men’s porn is unrealistic? At least the guys in there are good looking.
Billionaire stud chooses awkward, plain girl again. How much men’s porn has a harem of women servicing a fat, impotent, virgin, pimply nerd? Bueller?
@Sassy
Spoiler alert: She (and all his previous subs) is a dead ringer for his crack whore mother.
@Maggie
If it’s merely 1 in 10,000 who do that’s a few hundred already.
I wasn’t around for it, but people say the Beauty books caused a pop and that’s when the scene wasn’t as close as your browser (hell, the Beauty books were my gateway to saying, “Yes, this is what I want to try in real life”).
I remember a pop from Secretary which was more realistic and really hot. In fact, my first interaction in person with scene people was going to see that movie.
I can’t imagine this won’t cause one too.
@Off the Cuff
Two words: Ron Jeremy
@SayWhaat
I read that a man’s having a talent, like music, implied that he had enough resources to spend time developing an artistic skill rather than procuring food and other necessities. Creative talent has always been a mark of status – people who possess it can make a living without getting their hands dirty.
The difference between men then and now is about 20 years. The one on the left is close to 40, the one on the right is close to 20. One’s got manly grit, the other boyish charm. Both attractive to women in their own age range.
@ Susan Walsh
Bwahaha!!
That just makes things even better.
Thanks for that added piece of info.
So the guy has an Oedipus complex too, and she’s okay with this?
Priceless.
@Sassy
Hurray, more song lyrics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScdJURKGWM
Funny aside, last time I did community radio I almost took the show title from the discussion intro to the song in the YouTube clip.
Ana -”So you rather have her masturbate?”
If my choices are she has sex with me while imagining her fantasy man, or she rubs one out, then she can take care of it herself. If I was stupid enough to get all hot and bothered watching porn, I’d expect to be handling that problem myself. If she wants to get all hot and bothered reading fantasy porn, the shower has a message setting.
And as far as it goes, I would consider regular reading of such books to be an issue similar to one many women complain about: porn obsession. Lucky for me my SO doesn’t like the genre. She only considered reading this crappy book because a few women at her office said it was super hot. I told her what it is about, and she was surprised. Mostly I think because one of the women raving about it is a physician’s assistant, and doesn’t seem the type to want to be that dominated. She was the one that said she jumped her husband after reading it, and in fact her face turned a little red when she brought the book up.
Makes me want to spit in disgust…
@GudEnuf
Porn. Ogi Ogas reviewed a billion computer searches to see where women and men go online. Men go to porn, and have a preference for female submission in porn.
Who is Hawley and what are his/her credentials?
There’s no evidence that women have ever NOT had submissive fantasies. It’s just that this novel never got censored – this was pure consumer choice with no advertising, no marketing, no critical reviews promoting or killing sales. This is the purest form of “what women want” that we’ve seen in a long time, because women voted with their wallets.
@OTC
That’s a really good question. I can totally see why women embrace this fantasy – men are so visual, and we know that very few of us have any hope whatsoever of snagging a super handsome guy. I’m more surprised that men in porn are not more average looking – especially since recently some guys here talked about how some alpha in a woman’s past is the demon they wrestle with.
@GudEnuf
One further thought on this, you are looking at a subgroup of people openly willing to engage the idea of being in a S&M scene or relationship (btw, I hate the term BDSM and SSC for that matter). The desire for mild submission or Dominance might not be as skewed towards a handful of people or M/F as it is in the lifestyle.
“Spoiler alert: She (and all his previous subs) is a dead ringer for his crack whore mother.”
People with unresolved childhood issues really need therapy before they enter adult relationships.
“The majority of women have submission fantasies.”
I guess I’m in the minority then. Maybe I’m broken, but sex is always better with an Archway Lemon Cookie in one hand, the remote in the other, and me shouting instructions while the latest Muse album blares.
And tomorrow I’m doing exactly what I want. Same as you. That’s why my guys have always been true-blue betas with senses of humor.
“In the internet age with collarme and bondage.com it is very easy for a bored housewife to go online and get herself in trouble. This will only make it worse.”
This is also the echo-chamber effect of the net: “Wow! There are literally dozens of people out there who like to gargle carpet tacks while yodeling! I’m not alone!”
“He proposes a three month trial contract, during which he will dictate nearly every aspect of her life: what she eats, wears, and how she exercises.”
Wow. Sad. Self-esteem issues? Table of none?
@Her Beloved
Isn’t that the same as everyone needs therapy first?
“That’s a really good question. I can totally see why women embrace this fantasy – men are so visual, and we know that very few of us have any hope whatsoever of snagging a super handsome guy.”
Happens all the time. Take the example from this book, he was looking for his mother in the women he bedded. People have types and those types often reflect what is familiar to us or what will make us feel the most “at home”.
Easy answer, I think.
Men usually ignore the men in porn entirely, and concentrate on the woman — watch how often the male is often disembodied entirely, or how lipstick-lesbian porn is preferred. If that’s not the case, he imagines himself to BE the powerful male in the picture. Nerds getting laid in porn is plain stupid, only played for laughs.
@Herb
I think it’s important to recognize that they do not have a D/s relationship. It never comes to that. In fact, Grey claims he is “cured” of these “fucked up” desires by Ana’s love. After she leaves him, he refuses to enter the Playroom again, even when she returns. I have not read the third book, but I suspect they find some sort of lite spanking and tying of wrists that they both enjoy.
But make no mistake – the BDSM piece is presented as dysfunctional – the only reason Grey is this way is because he had a crack whore mother whose pimp used him as an ashtray.
I would not anticipate this will increase interest in BDSM – there is no demonstration in this book of D/s as a healthy and consensual expression of sexuality. In fact, there are two women from Grey’s past – the Cougar dom and one of his subs – who are presented as either mentally ill (the sub) or devoid of empathy (the dom).
Herb, no. Not all of us have crackwhore moms. Some of us actually came from functional families.
@Pip
Hey now, not all submissives have self-esteem issues. I’ll admit that kind of extreme, where the control is all encompassing, is rare (although most Dominants seem to be open to do it in areas they want specific ways or with specific outcomes) but not unknown.
“Who is Hawley and what are his/her credentials?”
http://psych.ku.edu/people/faculty/hawley_patricia.shtml
She’s a KU professor specializing in evolution, dominance, and psychology. She conducted a study of romance novels and found that men preferred submissive fantasies as much as women.
[quote]Billionaire stud chooses awkward, plain girl again.[/quote]
I think another part of the fantasy is that the “considered plain and ackward girl” is really very attractive and she doesn’t know it, usually because she is a late bloomer. Few women will imagine themselves as ugly, look at all the versions of Ugly Betty. She was beautiful all along all she needed was better clothes and hairdo and no glasses.
[quote]How much men’s porn has a harem of women servicing a fat, impotent, virgin, pimply nerd? Bueller?[/quote]
We already establish that virginity and lack of sexual history is actually good from men’s POV, but not so much for women so she being a virgin is an attractive trait, he will be her Alpha for as long as she lives, second men’s in straight porn are usually very face ugly they usually have good bodies and pretty penises but their faces are ugly. I think porn casting for men stars with “drop your pants”, for women they probably see faces and hair first then the “strip” follows, YMMV.
“There’s no evidence that women have ever NOT had submissive fantasies.”
But if you look at the women who have more submissive fantasies, they tend to be the women with the social and career dominance. The high-octane corporate lawyer woman is wants to be dominated far more than the meek secretary.
@Susan
Well at least the Cougar Dom is accurate
Maybe, but I’m still worried more bored housewives will like the spice and think the mild vanilla stuff is what they’re find…call it a super-fixer-upper jerk and get themselves in trouble.
That scenario is common enough that while Gloria Brame has top five things about being both a FemDom and a MaleDom in her intro book, she only has a five worse things for MaleDoms and several of them have to do with exactly that scenario either at the front (clueless and for some reason instantly stupid women) and the back (cleaning up after, well, after guys who take the PUA approach to being a Dominant in the scene).
For those wondering, both top five lists include oral sex, although in slightly different ways.
Billionaire stud chooses awkward, plain girl again.
I think another part of the fantasy is that the “considered plain and ackward girl” is really very attractive and she doesn’t know it, usually because she is a late bloomer. Few women will imagine themselves as ugly, look at all the versions of Ugly Betty. She was beautiful all along all she needed was better clothes and hairdo and no glasses.
How much men’s porn has a harem of women servicing a fat, impotent, virgin, pimply nerd? Bueller?
We already establish that virginity and lack of sexual history is actually good from men’s POV, but not so much for women so she being a virgin is an attractive trait, he will be her Alpha for as long as she lives, second men’s in straight porn are usually very face ugly they usually have good bodies and pretty penises but their faces are ugly. I think porn casting for men stars with “drop your pants”, for women they probably see faces and hair first then the “strip” follows, YMMV.
Susan – OTC pegged it. Most guys I know pretty much ignore the men in their porn other than to see what happens to his penis. And yes, some of them definitely put themselves in the starring role. Also, no guy watching porn is thinking about how he wants to spend the rest of his life with the female stars, so I suspect that them being pounded by really hunky guys doesn’t bother them too much.
It is totally different to know that your SO was once pounded by hunky guys though.
@GudEnuf
Perhaps in the general population but not among those acting on it. The cross-section across the gender, power orientation, and sexual orientation seems to be not far off the general population.
@Pip
Wow. That may be the best quote ever on HUS. Clipped for posterity and future use.
I just want to point out that most of the women who comment here prefer betas, and have a record of dating beta guys. Sure, there’s bound to be some selection bias, but there are at least a few dozen women who have said this here, and we count for something, surely!
@Ted D
I’m with you on this one with this caveat:
if she reads the book and I act as a proxy for Mr. Grey thats a no go.
if she reads the book and goes “that could be fun, hun do wyou want to do this,” thats a totally different scenario altogether.
Sadly I suspect most women are in the first category.
@ the porn debate
FWIW porn is typically boring as hell for me unless it involves >2 women and I only watch it when my fiance goes to visit her family for a month.
Lokland – I agree. My complaint is with the first scenario. For the most part I’m up for trying new things, and I don’t care where she gets the ideas. But that is a far cry from laying me like tile while dreaming of some douchy fantasy hero.
@Herb (#40)
OMG, that Oedipus Rex set to music is *hilarious*!
Have you heard of the satirical opera by “PDQ Bach” (Peter Schickele, this guy is basically the classical music version of Weird Al), ‘Oedipus TEX’? In the story he is Oed. R’s redneck Texan lil’ brother, with a massive inferiority complex.
I can’t find a decent YouTube, but it’s an *awesome* farce. After O. Tex casts out his eyes (“Mah ahs! Mah ahs!”) they go straight into “The Eyes of Texas (Are Upon You).”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XWghEPH8b8
@Ted and @Lokland
So do you support a woman that feels hat her husband/boyfriend/SO is cheating if he looks at porn/goes to a strip club?
@GudEnuf
The concluding remarks from the Hawley study:
and
Clearly, the psychology is very different for each gender. In fact, this study makes it sound like beta men welcome submitting to a dominant female who selects them sexually.
@SW
“Sure, there’s bound to be some selection bias, but there are at least a few dozen women who have said this here, and we count for something, surely!”
Only in an environment that appreciates it : )
@Susan
This sounds so impossibly trashy. I mean, beyond parody. Optioned by Focus for $5million? Ugh!
I thought Oprah’s book club had everyone reading _East of Eden_ and more edifying stuff…?
Hmmm, not according to the film Secretary! I honestly don’t know, but I can believe that women who have little experience being submissive, who have been taught to act like men to “make it in a man’s world” would build up a real desire to try on submissive, feminine behavior. Makes sense.
@Susan
A large amount of porn aimed at submissive men features just such women. While there are some women like that in real life, and very much a parallel to the alpha cad type, even worse is that many women who aren’t enter the lifestyle thinking the Ice Queen Bitch is what she’s supposed to be as a FemDom. Some get so turned off bored they leave before they find other models.
That cuts a bit too close to home, although I’m not saying it’s 100% my experience.
I don’t think so. I think there’s more of the latter, or we would be hearing that husbands are rebelling when gifted with gray silk ties. The women are giddy – and they’re advising their friends to read it and reap the benefits in the marriage bed. So the men must be game…
@Susan
Since they arguably cover the same ground, what was your opinion of Secretary?
Ana – 100%. When in a relationship, I do not go to strip clubs and abstain from porn unless my SO wants to catch CatHouse or Katy Morgan on HBO. My SO is actually OK with me watching porn if I want, but seeing as I’m pretty firm about romance novels and “male review woman’s night out” I don’t think it would be fair of me to partake. I may be a bit wonky in the head, but I’m no hypocrite.
And as far as it goes, I’ve only been in a strip club a total of four times in my entire life. I never saw the point in getting blue balls over women that won’t go home with me. And even if they did, I’m not interested in casual sex. And I certainly won’t be wifing up any exotic dancers!
Nice to see you Megaman. I like the new avatar – the Northern Lights?
Hmmm, it’s been years. I recall feeling mildly disturbed. I think it was the impassive demeanor of the James Spade character. The dynamic was very intimate physically, and emotionally in the sense that real needs were bared. But it didn’t seem like a relationship that could really go anywhere. I don’t recall how it ended, so I may be wrong about that.
“and we count for something, surely!”
Only the ones that actually believe us
Susan – “I don’t think so. I think there’s more of the latter, or we would be hearing that husbands are rebelling when gifted with gray silk ties. The women are giddy – and they’re advising their friends to read it and reap the benefits in the marriage bed. So the men must be game…”
Not all men are “game” for this, although I imagine most will simply be happy about the sex and won’t care why or where it came from. I would rather go without. And I swear to God if I got a grey silk tie I would flip a nutty right then and there. Like I want to pretend to be some mentally damaged dude from an emo-porn book…
It’s one thing to role play a bit using general “roles”, and completely another to want role play involving specific people. I’m me, and if that isn’t good enough for her she can take her grey silk tie and hit the road. I don’t expect her to pretend to be a porn star, and she best not expect me to be a ridiculous portrayal of a bad ass coconut.
@Jackie
It’s trashy allright. It seems creepy to post this right after Easter. I just couldn’t bring myself to do it last week.
@SW
Swan Nebula. Hopefully, you’ll appreciate the in-joke…
Since they arguably cover the same ground, what was your opinion of Secretary?
Secretary for me was just an odd movie. Me love James Spader since I saw him on Stargate so that is why I watched it but he was so different from sweet Daniel. It was for me a love story for sure but it was not romantic, it didn’t produced any emotional response just a lot of intellectual ones, so yeah….
PS
Now I feel like getting Stargate on Netflix
@Susan
They got married although it implied she was a bit SAMy.
@Ted D
Honestly, I don’t really get the tie sales thing. First, if a woman felt inspired to try a bit of tie me up, tie me down, why not just use a tie in her husband’s closet? Second, I would find it totally embarrassing to buy a gray silk tie right now. I imagine sales clerks smirking everywhere. Third, I think that like you, my husband would feel resentful if he knew the story behind the tie.
There are elements to this story that are truly bizarre.
@Ana and Susan
Your responses to Secretary are interesting…even though I’m male I enjoyed what Maggie Gyllenhaal’s character went through (although a posture collar with a bar must be a bitch) and as a guy she’s just plain hot.
But for me the movie was very sexy although I agree with James Spader being too stoic. There is nothing like seeing your Dominant smile when they’re hurting you
@Megaman
Ha, had to look it up. It’s beautiful!
I have only read about “50″ here, so my information is limited to that given above. Still-Christ Almighty are you fucking shitting me? The description of the themes made me think of a literary milkshake made out of certain parts of “The Story of O”, “The Secretary” “Naked Came the Stranger” with a splash of some Starbucks concoction. Bad writing-I’m grateful to our editor for providing an example: “Can I not guide him into the light?” Only an English Lit. major who had just mainlined some particularly good heroin could gloss over that one. I almost wish Bukowski was alive so he could find her and kill her, but then another of her ilk would make a romance novel out of that and we’d be back to square one.
I was thinking there might be a Freudian/Jungian aspect to it. Unless I missed something, the article only mentions 2 out of the trilogy. But here’s my conceit:
1) Book one corresponds to a woman’s “deflowering”. Pain, confusion and turmoil that love in its physical expression can hurt so, and for the man’s selfish pleasure. But still submission reigns in our young girl’s heart as her ovaries tell her there are are yet better things in store.
2) Book two has our heroine engaged in the age old task of convincing our self-centered degenerate stud that his intentions towards her are honorable (I know it’s an old premise, but this bitch is about as refreshingly original as the cover on a box of Kellog’s Cornflakes). As she bends for him she bends him to her, he changes but degrees imperceptible to him but not her (or the readers fiddling with their clits as they read this). Take out the kinks, the half-ass glamour of a third rate bodice-ripper, and assorted other (allegedly poorly written) bullshit, and you have a description of a common true to life romance.
3) Ok so I don’t see 3 up there. Does true love conquer? Do fish fuck in streams?Speaking of fish, do I give a flying tuna fish fuck? No.
But I suppose for those who do, stay tuned. BTW I read only non-fiction.
Pip: “Maybe I’m broken, but sex is always better with an Archway Lemon Cookie in one hand, the remote in the other, and me shouting instructions while the latest Muse album blares.”
Yeh, you probably are broken… if you have enough motor control to hold something and actually form sentences!
I love Muse, tho.
@Her Beloved
Which one?
@Munson
The commenters are on fire tonight. This post was worth writing just for the responses.
That’s brilliant.
You nailed it re books 1 and 2. This especially:
Three is not up there because I haven’t read it. Actually, I had no plans to read two either, but did so because I actually got sucked in and wanted to know what happened after she dumped him. I am not quite done with two – and frankly, I cannot imagine a plot twist that would inspire me to read three.
However – you know what trilogy of books means…
Four movies. One each for one and two, and they’ll split the third into two films. At least that’s what Twilight and Hunger Games have done.
Not that you care, Munson
@Herb (#88)
I think HerBeloved is referring to _The Passion of the Christ_. It is very gory, very graphic and totally justified in being rated “R.” Didn’t Christopher Hitchens describe it as “torture porn”?
I remember an Evangelical friend asked me to see it with her– I could barely look at the screen. So violent. So hard to watch.
a guy she’s just plain hot.
I think she is very attractive myself but I prefer her character in Stranger than Fiction of course she ends up dating the sweet Beta “loser” so what else is new. :p
Honestly, I don’t really get the tie sales thing.
Most of the elements of my Twilight shrine, yes I do have one don’t judge me, has been presents from my Twihard friends it could be as innocent as the same women that are talking about the book buy them for their girlfriends as some sort of joke or token of female bonding.
You are forgetting that part of this phenomenons, women bond with each other by talking so if a book is the thing to talk about then chances are they are picking them up to strength bonds with their friends, there are all sorts of things that come with it. There is a reason that female driven franchises have a lot of promotional crap to sell, YMMV.
Oh and Plain Jane alert! Hint she is posing as man now
@Her Beloved
That’s what I thought you meant and as far as being a hit in the community, not in my experience…I was living in CT at the time if I remember correctly when it came out.
@Ana
Are you saying “Her Beloved” is Plain Jane. I’ve got my anklet on, let me bell her
I remember an Evangelical friend asked me to see it with her– I could barely look at the screen. So violent. So hard to watch.
Want to know something horrifying? When I was in my 4th honeymoon during eastern in the hotel we were staying at the pool they had a big screen and that was the movie they choose to show at 6 pm with the pool full of children of all ages, but you know a religious movie is totally kid friendly…and I still wonder how we create so many sociopaths on DR
Are you saying “Her Beloved” is Plain Jane. I’ve got my anklet on, let me bell her
Doesn’t she need to consent first?
@Ana
It’s not an S&M act, but a preventive defense…so no.
She doesn’t seem very toppy to me and even if she did and I wanted to scene with her I’d have to get Ma’am permission first (after all, property is property
).
Oral sex, which he performs two or three times, is always performed with her standing up, him kneeling, moving his tongue in perfect circles for a minute or so.
Hmmmm. One can only hope that the apologies are better than the cunnilingus.
@J
Yeah, doesn’t he know there are chairs designed just for that
@Anacaona (#94)
Hi Bella! It’s nice to see you
Did you say *fourth* honeymoon?!? Wow– living large.
You guys must have just kept partying across timezones, countries and language barriers. 
About showing _Passion_ to kids, in a pool– UGH UGH UGH! *runs and grabs brain bleach* DO NOT WANT
Why couldn’t they just show a Disney cartoon?
She doesn’t seem very toppy to me and even if she did and I wanted to scene with her I’d have to get Ma’am permission first (after all, property is property
).
I don’t feel ashamed at all that I had no idea what you mean there toppy? scene? Ma’am permission. Elvish is easier to understand for me…
@Ana
Top: someone who takes the active role in S&M play (wields the whip, does the the tying)
Scene: a set of S&M activities…like having sex but with whips and chains
Ma’am: My GF, given the relationship is more formal in the D/s context I tend to refer to her as Ma’am (Mistress is more common but it works for us).
Permission is just what it sounds like…I can’t play with anyone without her permission (although I might wind up playing with someone at her direction even if I did instigate or was even approached…)
@Jackie
Glad Easter is over so you can join us again, were is Bellita though? She as abstaining for Easter too.
Hi….Alice?
Did you say *fourth* honeymoon?!? Wow– living large.
You guys must have just kept partying across timezones, countries and language barriers.
Heh not really all of them were in my country and DR is really cheap (38 pesos for 1 dollar) and since my husband and I had to wait till the stupid immigration granted me the spousal visa (around 1 year but then we were engaged for 1 too and he visit me twice a year) we just decided to take vacations when he visited me. My country does has all types of weathers so we went to the beach, the city, mountains… we only missed the wetlands and the desert but again cheap, specially for white gringos with a dark skinned lady companion which means that they probably though I was a hooker, very common there, but also means no other hookers bothered him, professional courtesy and all that.
@Herb
Errr thanks? Not sure that was info I wanted stored on my brain but I did asked.
Why couldn’t they just show a Disney cartoon?
Disney doesn’t has religious princesses??
I would had preferred Joseph Master of Dreams or The Prince of Egypt but I guess they just though it was a new Jesus movie (and as a catholic you know we have a new one practically every year) and they didn’t though anymore about it, typical laid back Dominican attitude.
Sorry the spousal visa took almost two years. Stupid *(*&%$@! immigration.
@Ana
Bad mental images is just one service I provide
And I’m still probably not as bad as the book in question.
@Anacaona Cullen
You should write the story of you and your husband– that should outsell any of this 50 Shades garbage! Option it for $10 million screenplay and invite HUS to the premiere.
Who should we cast as you and your husband?
PS: I’m sure Bellita will be back! I need to check her blog– maybe she is taking Easter Monday off? I missed seeing her and everybody here, too. That was a long 40 days!
@Jackie Swan
You should write the story of you and your husband– that should outsell any of this 50 Shades garbage! Option it for $10 million screenplay and invite HUS to the premiere.
Who should we cast as you and your husband?
I’m actually editing my paranormal romance as we speak. Not sure how much it will sell , or if I can sell it, specially since is a nerd romance but sure any HUSer that wants to go to the premier if it ever becomes a movie are invited.
PS: I’m sure Bellita will be back! I need to check her blog– maybe she is taking Easter Monday off?
True not a lot of people follow the Easter Monday as part of the celebration in my country so I forgot.
@Herb
Chairs? Really? An intriging idea.
@Ana (#109)
OMG, that’s awesome! You should definitely know when/where we can buy it.
I would love to read a paranormal romance!
*proud nerd*
@J
Search google for “Queening chair”…just anyone who does be warned, images will be explicit I suspect.
OMG, that’s awesome! You should definitely know when/where we can buy it.
I would love to read a paranormal romance!
*proud nerd*
Heh I know I have an audience I just don’t know how big and if the publishing houses are interested I worked in editing in Spanish for a while and there is a lot of luck involved. Both Harry Potter and Twilight were rejected by at least a dozen people so just because you have potential doesn’t mean you can actually find someone that sees it, specially enough to pay money for print it.
I asked if anyone wanted to be a test reader so if you are interested let me know I still will want more opinions before sending the query letters.
@Herb
Heh is okay I can take my trauma’s one paragraph at the time.
Search google for “Queening chair”…just anyone who does be warned, images will be explicit I suspect.
Yes they are *toocuriousformyowngood* but they are not worse than glory holes now if you have never seen a glory hole I will recommend you not to search for this. Also I don’t find oral sex that arousing looking so maybe the ladies will have a different response.
As a curiosity the first though that came to my mind when I saw the chairs was remembering Pope Joan according to the medieval legends there is similar chair containing a hole called sedia stercoraria, a cardinal had to reach up and establish that the new pope had testicles, the female pope was discovered when she gave birth in the street during a procession.
Yeah I know Herb I’m not fun :p
Ted D said:
“Mostly I think because one of the women raving about it is a physician’s assistant, and doesn’t seem the type to want to be that dominated. She was the one that said she jumped her husband after reading it, and in fact her face turned a little red when she brought the book up. ”
___________________________________
Ted, for some women (not all, but some) being in medicine in a superior position is rough. Doc, NP, PA – all those women have to ride herd on what is usually a staff made up of other women.
In my experience, a group of women will have more people who are shitty subordinates than a group of men. In addition, the guys are generally more self regulating – that is, there is more peer pressure to be a good follower. The guys will pressure the crappy follower to improve. The girls will band together and “support” their own bad followers.
This odd behavior is magnified when the female leader is younger/and or higher status outside of work than the female subordinates.
As you may know, my GF is one of those “higher ups” in medicine. She’s also quite attractive. She gets a lot of crap, both subtle and overt, from women who work for her.
It’s been a bit of an adjustment for me to deal with. I happen to like women who are a tad feisty and opinionated. I enjoy a bit of verbal sparring from time to time. After a 12 hour shift on a female-dominated unit, though, my ol’ lady likes to come over and have all the decisions made for her.
Seriously – for whatever reason, she says it’s nicer for me to say stuff like,”Put on the History Channel/We’re having chicken/come to bed now” than be by herself and make those decisions for herself.
Now, she’s not like that all the time. Give her a few days off or a shift with a good bunch of nurses and techs – my gal thinks she’s Queen Shit of Turd Mountain. Those are the times I enjoy with her the most. I don’t mind the other times too much, though, – I just think of them as giving her what she needs to charge back up.
I guess I’m just not all that surprised that a female medical provider – especially if she’s constantly leading/cajoling/pushing/dominating a staff – would have some desire to flip the script.
Herb,
Is that comfortable for the woman? The straight back looks like it would make it hard to relax.
@J
There are a lot of different designs so it depends. Certainly, if you’re interested you could look around. Plus, you could design your own. Last weekend I went to three classes on designing dungeon furniture.
For fuck’s sake Plain Jane seriously needs a life.
Is any PUA reading willing to date her? Maybe getting laid will help her to stop stalking HUS.
She is using three new handles at this point…boy how can we get tired of her before she gets tired of us?
I don’t know if I can dig this one but thanks for sharing though. Nice to know I guess.
It’s one thing to role play a bit using general “roles”, and completely another to want role play involving specific people. I’m me, and if that isn’t good enough for her she can take her grey silk tie and hit the road. I don’t expect her to pretend to be a porn star, and she best not expect me to be a ridiculous portrayal of a bad ass coconut.
Ted, your sexual insecurities are really something else. Guess what? Every single woman with more than a modicum of experience occasionally fantasizes about someone or something else when she’s with her partner. Your girlfriend does too. And there is nothing wrong with that, so long as her fantasy object isn’t her brother, your mother, or the guy who works in the cubicle next to her.
All that “she’s thinking of ME or it’s the HIGHWAY” bluster accomplishes is to make you look like a scared little delta male, frightened that if you’re not the only thing she’s thinking about at all times, she’s going to leave you. It’s the exact opposite of alpha.
Well, I suspect I know what I’ll be getting for Father’s Day now. She knows I’d be far more horrified that she would ever read such dreadful literature than by the thought she might have been turned on by the porn.
Of course, this is a woman who devoted nearly a week arranging to get caught watching the sparkle scene in the first Twilight movie after it came to satellite. And then spent a month collaborating with an accomplice buying boxes of fish sticks in another country in order to acquire a stuffed bear that she could put in the freezer for our anniversary.
“Most men do not find Gyllenhal hot. Not Maggie, anyway.”
that’s true. She isn’t ugly, but she’s not hot either.
is that why she turns on the kink? (the character, I mean) to boost her SMP value for the Spader market place.
@Ana
have you seen him in ‘Boston Legal’? Spader’s certainly older but his character has echoes of Sceretary Spader (they are more exposed in some episodes than others). A strange relationship with parents is spoken of without much given in the way of details.
His bestest buddy Shatner (Capt Kirk) was just marvellous.
Add in the odd episodes with cows, kneecaps and hysteria machines – fantastic.
“Women want their romance heroes to be like coconuts: hard and tough on the outside, but soft and sweet on the inside. But the hero’s sweet interior can’t be available to just anyone.”
Nine times out of ten, an asshole is an asshole is an asshole. Maybe you’ll see some of that sweet interior, but that’s also going to come with generous helpings of asshole, and is going to put you through that dysfunctional push-pull dynamic in Graph 3 that we saw not too long ago.
Fair warning.
Also, IME, the guys that can just flip the script like this, and I know maybe three, are also excellent liars. Know what you’re getting into, ladies.
@Anacaona
Good point – the publicist did say that this book is the new Kabbalah of female bonding. (I hadn’t even realized the old Kabbalah promoted female bonding.)
@ Cheerful #89
I saw “The Hunger Games” last weekend and enjoyed it very much; it is the first action movie that I will think about long after after having seen it. So nyahh nyahh. But this thing (s); boy, if it’s as bad as you say, and the themes are obviously as you describe, what does that tell us? I’d just gotten done writing a hopeful and encouraging screed, and then I read this. This “literature”- it’s as if the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse were preceded by a harlequin ( pun) on a mule announcing that we must all prepare for our impending destruction.
@Susan
“The women are giddy – and they’re advising their friends to read it and reap the benefits in the marriage bed. So the men must be game…”
When my fiance and her friends talk I ignore them completely.
“Third, I think that like you, my husband would feel resentful if he knew the story behind the tie. ”
Seems you contradicted yourself.
Most of the guys are not game because they are not going to read the book.
The point about it being a grey tie vs. any tie is very telling. I would suspect that given the opportunity most of these women would be gone in a flash if a real-life Mr. Grey appeared.
I concede that is partly their husbands fault.
Its similar to a twi-head who buys fangs and sparkle powder and screams “bite me [insert vampire name]” while her and hubby are going at it. The equivalent would be for a guy to scream the name of a porn star.
In either case, I’d be planning an exit strategy.
@VD
I can honestly say that it’s poorly written trash – for me that is actually the most disturbing aspect. I’m surprised there wasn’t more criticism of the quality among all those readers who spoke on the record. The sex scenes were very poorly written – even if one wanted to entertain the fantasy, the descriptions make it difficult. I don’t quite understand how sexually experienced women could take those scenes seriously enough to be inspired by them.
@Beta Guy
If women could wise up to this, the SMP would heal itself immediately. It’s not going to happen – that fantasy is powerful.
@Munson
I think GudEnuf was right about this – the most masculine, “in charge” women are the ones with the strongest desire for this stuff, and we have a lot of women like that today. All roads lead to feminism. This is just another of the unintended consequences, but it’s hardly surprising that after 50 years women would express (anonymously) that they enjoy submission after all, especially in the bedroom.
It’s relevant that there is no adultery or cheating of any kind in the story. Even Mr. Grey is 100% monogamous – and says that up front to Anastasia. The “one woman man” is the most essential ingredient of female fantasy and romance lit.
VD – “All that “she’s thinking of ME or it’s the HIGHWAY” bluster accomplishes is to make you look like a scared little delta male, frightened that if you’re not the only thing she’s thinking about at all times, she’s going to leave you. It’s the exact opposite of alpha.”
I am actually aware of the fact that much of my thinking stems from insecurity, but after spending 13 years (the last 5 of which were horrible) with a woman that didn’t want me and “loved me but wasn’t IN love with me”, I am OK with being a little gun shy when it comes to attraction from my SO. She knows what my issues are, and she is good with working past it with me.
And I’ve NEVER once said I wanted to be alpha, because I don’t. I’m with JM in that I pretty much think those types of labels are useless other than for discussion. I fully intend to be exactly who I am, and everyone will have to take it or leave it. Will I accommodate people in my life? To a certain extent surely. But there many things about myself that are not up for debate, at least not external debate. I don’t like how I react to this stuff, but for now it is what it is.
Last, I certainly don’t expect my SO to think about me all the time. That is ridiculous. However, I do expect to meet her sexual needs and if that isn’t possible, then to me there isn’t much point in continuing. I’m not looking for a live in friend here.
My way or the highway is exactly how I “lead”. It may be a flawed method, but it’s the one I have. And it isn’t about being scared so much as about setting my boundaries. If she wants to leave, I won’t stop her. But if she wants to stay, she has to be 100% with me. I won’t ever again deal with a partial relationship.
I think the more masculine women needs to be dominated harder during sex in order to feel feminine and submissive. With a really feminine girl it doesen`t take much, just basic leading is enough for her to feel polarity. I think that is why someone said on the lesbian marriage thread that lesbian BDSM people are known to play harder. Even the more feminine woman in a typical lesbian couple is more masculine then the average woman so needs harder play to feel utterly reactive/feminine. The dom however, although more masculine still has so much femininity by virtue of being a woman she needs to play harder in order to feel completely dominant.
@Susan
Interesting part of the red pill process for me that I think tells us a lot about how deep this desire is ingrained in women.
I realized that one of the reasons I’ve had to accept being in poly relationships is most Dominant Women in the S&M scene have multiple partners. The most common variation is these Dominant Women have a submissive male partner and a Dominant male partner. More often than not, the Dominant male partner is her primary partner. The majority of Dominant Women in the scene who don’t have a Dominant Male partner are the female S&M equivalent of alpha cads.
The number of Dominant Women whose primary or only partner is a submissive male is vanishingly small, which has been a very depressing fact of late.
So, the female desire for submission is ingrained enough that even FemDoms in the S&M scene express it to some degree. Why should we be surprised that vanilla career women do.
This made me smile (because of how clever it was) and sad at the same time.
DogSquat – Good point. My SO also told me that this particular PA is married to another PA.
However, he has been down for a bit after back surgery, so I’m guessing it has been awhile since they got “aggressive” and reading this stupid book got her so frustrated she attacked him, in a good way of course.
And yes, other than the doctors much of the office staff is female. It is an ortho specialty with about 15 docs, just as many PA’s and a crap load of clinical staff. My mate is a medical assistant, but they also have x-ray techs that perform MA duties. Surprisingly, most of the PAs are men as well, with only two female PAs total.
Oh really, Ana? You mean “it’s romance” doesn’t cover over plot holes?
Gee that sounds familiar. 
(sorry, couldn’t resist poking ya at having a partial epiphany)
I started asking around the office about fantasizing during sex, and I’m starting to think that JM and I are part of a huge minority of people that don’t do it.
Everyone I asked (which admittedly isn’t more than about 10 so far) has answered that yes, at some point they either did or do fantasize about someone other than the person they are having sex with WHILE actually having sex. (for the record, several of these folks are not married and/or in a LTR, and several are younger guys in their mid to late 20′s)
I just don’t get it. If the person you are screwing isn’t enough to get you off, why are you even there?
@Susan “The sex scenes were very poorly written – even if one wanted to entertain the fantasy, the descriptions make it difficult.”
By definition, they will never be written properly. Then again, we have our wonderfully written Dragon Tattoo trilogy for those who really like their bondage done right.
Update: I got two NO answers, but they were from two ladies in the office a bit older than me.
I guess I think like an old man. Perhaps I should start staring out my window waiting for the opportunity to tell some kid to get off my lawn.
And they probably lied about their answer anyway…
I am unfamiliar with the history of female pornography. The puritanism that runs parallel to American culture may have few experiences dealing with the topic female erotica. There are more than a few erotic passages in the Christian Bible. They are rich with symbolism and a trained ear might take secret pleasure in them. This passage refers to oral sex:
“Your navel is a rounded bowl that never lacks mixed wine. Your belly is a heap of wheat, encircled with lilies.” Song of Solomon 7:2
Perhaps, younger generations of women require more overt language. The Cosmopolitan magazine writes about sex much more than any male magazine. They have been criticized for targeting younger and younger females. Men’s magazines don’t do this. A boy isn’t a man and having one on the cover would smack of pederasty.
Ted, you are truly hilarious, and despite your descriptions of your behavior, extremely laid back and easy to get along with.
@Ted D
Why do you think swinging, poly, and Ashley Madison exist?
I think more people are unsatisfied than satisfied with their sex lives anymore. I think a lot of it is the culture’s messages more than their SO but it’s there.
Herb – “Why do you think swinging, poly, and Ashley Madison exist?
I think more people are unsatisfied than satisfied with their sex lives anymore. I think a lot of it is the culture’s messages more than their SO but it’s there.”
I know why they exist, I just don’t get why they are necessary. Seriously people, if you can’t find one person you can be satisfied with, perhaps some deep introspection is in order.
At least most swinger/poly types are open about the practice and stick with people of like mind for relationships. It isn’t my cup of tea, but if both people are OK with it I don’t have a problem with their choices.
No matter how much improvement I may make in regards to getting past my aversion to romance novels/fantasy/etc, I can promise you I will NEVER be into swinging/poly lifestyle. To the best of my knowledge*, I simply do not enjoy sex without a great level of emotional intimacy groundwork beforehand. I’m very sure that physically I am capable (since all it would take is some stimulation of my penis to orgasm) but I won’t seek it out and certainly wouldn’t risk the security of my relationship for something so trivial.
I am also an only child, and I don’t like sharing my toys.
*NOTE: I have never actually had casual sex, so I say “to the best of my knowledge” because I really don’t know beyond all doubt that I wouldn’t like it. Even if I did, I still don’t see the point in risking security for fleeting pleasure.
Susan – Generally I am pretty laid back, but I am also one of the most annoying people I know when I get my hackles up. I’m like a Pit Bull in that I won’t let go of a debate until I feel like there is some form of closure, to the point of absurdity if I allow it.
I don’t see that as a bad thing most of the time, since it tends to allow me to get what I need in my professional roles, but it can really be a bitch in close personal relationships.
have you seen him in ‘Boston Legal’? Spader’s certainly older but his character has echoes of Sceretary Spader (they are more exposed in some episodes than others). A strange relationship with parents is spoken of without much given in the way of details.
At the risk of getting my nerd card removed I haven’t. I really had no time or TV to watch series so I never started and he did looked like an asshole on the ads so yeah not interested. I think Daniel was the only character he has done were he was nerdy so I know that randomly following him is no the best strategy.
Good point – the publicist did say that this book is the new Kabbalah of female bonding. (I hadn’t even realized the old Kabbalah promoted female bonding.)
Yeah women are catty so when bonding they need to find a common ground that is herd forming for older women being passionated about a book is a huge way to bond with women with nothing less in common. I might have to write about this, many males that feel threatened by this trends because they are worried about their sexual desires are missing the point and they are asking their wives to be chose them instead of the herd and that is dangerous. Men can fulfill the sexual needs of their women but NOT the emotional needs. Filling emotional needs is talking endlessly and acting like a fan girl memorizing lines and doing the whole thing and this is something akin to hell for most men and it might end up with their wives seeing them as women anyway. This is interesting because is akin to all this women demanding to entering male only spaces men or calling sports fans “savages”. Both men and women need to have their time with their own gender to do their stuff, unless they are a bit like Hope that prefers masculine pursuits,or men that prefer feminine pursuits too, but they are minority of course, YMMV.
This made me smile (because of how clever it was) and sad at the same time.
Well I didn’t planned it I actually warned my hubby about the rampant prostitution on turistical places and I was ready to cut a bitch if some of this girls approached us it turned out that I never had to and then when I mentioned this to a most experienced male friend he told me that they don’t try to pouch clients as a way to keep the peace and keep the police out of their way. It is clever and sad too but is the reality.
Oh really, Ana? You mean “it’s romance” doesn’t cover over plot holes? Gee that sounds familiar.
(sorry, couldn’t resist poking ya at having a partial epiphany)
Is not an epiphany romance doesn’t really have plot holes, emotional choices don’t need to make logical sense just emotional sense, but the logical things like having a freaking email account in the 21th century, are things that no one in their right mind will try. And since you had never read a romance you have to believe what I say. :p
I just don’t get it. If the person you are screwing isn’t enough to get you off, why are you even there?
Had you seen a dragon raping a car? Some people get off in really weird stuff and they kind decide to leave some of this stuff to the imagination or you know Hentai.
“…Anastasia Steele gets her coconut; hard and tough on the outside, soft and sweet on the inside. That’s the ultimate female fantasy.”
—
I just downloaded it from Amazon. God, my imagination is just going to have a treat with this.
Anyway, yes, this has been my fantasy since I can remember. Over the years, I have attempted to convert arrogant, egotistical, self-centered good-looking men into sweet, loving and datable men. Yes, sure, you can get them to fall in love with you but they will not change for you. You would probably have better success with world peace.
Men with traits simliar to, the male character in “Fifty Shades of Grey” doesn’t really exist in the real world but I am sure everyone was aware of that already.
@Herb
I guess I’m just a traditionalist. I like a warm bed.
My best friend, back when he was in college, used to say that he could not wait until he had his own place, just so he could tell those punks to get off his lawn.
Hrmm. This is one of the subjects I could go Rain-Man on, spitting up a phone book of personal experiences, studies, brain mechanisms, intuitions. For me, it could only be misinformation, lack of observation, that could cause someone to be shocked, or even disturbed by a book like this.
The gist is that women respond to stress differently from men, with a release of oxytocin, a bonding hormone. Thus, sexy vampires, vertebrate mating up and down the animal kingdom, rape fantasies, loyal crime wives, serial-killer love letters, America(n women) electing its first Muslim congressman after 9/11 (Ellison, if not Hosni Mu… Saddam… …Bin Laden), and every other situation where applicable, as it always will be, as long as it is natural law.
That phenomenon existing, American women have a few problems. One, that family breakdown/abandonment (in all forms) is causing some children’s brains to develop into nervous adult ones that are less protected from all manner of tingles. Two, that a lack of social shame is removing the social risk-factor. Absent social fear, fear of “dishonor”, to dust off an old word, the tingle-inducing fear has to be actual, something you should be avoiding.
I’ll also agree with those who stated that the well-adjusted, experienced, egalitarian women, with absent or weak fathers, tend to take a ton of effort to dominate. Game has to be fatiguingly “tight” on them, like breaking wild horses, and that wrestling match is a barrier to what women getting what they instinctively need, to be awed and led.
I have some (unattractively) dominant female friends who are having relationship problems. Literally, what I think they need most is to be clubbed over the head and carried off by someone who’s not doing it because he’s so self-absorbed that he lacks empathy. That’s illegal presently, so the romance novels.
Nine times out of ten, an asshole is an asshole is an asshole. Maybe you’ll see some of that sweet interior, but that’s also going to come with generous helpings of asshole, and is going to put you through that dysfunctional push-pull dynamic in Graph 3 that we saw not too long ago.
And that ladies is why reforming assholes is called a FANTASY.
I have read one exactly romance in my life (which IMHO–sorry, Ana–means I have read them all). It’s not that I don’t appreciate the occasional romantic gesture, but it’s just silly to believe that your ever going to really change some guy with your Magic Vajayjay.
Anastasia Steele gets her coconut; hard and tough on the outside, soft and sweet on the inside. That’s the ultimate female fantasy.
Yes, and I have a lovely bridge that some of you might be intersted in purchasing. It’s located in Brooklyn…
It’s not that I don’t appreciate the occasional romantic gesture, but it’s just silly to believe that your ever going to really change some guy with your Magic Vajayjay.
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Actually, in my experience, it is withholding the vajayjay that gets them to fall for you. Just my 2 cents here.
Anastasia Steele gets her coconut; hard and tough on the outside, soft and sweet on the inside.
Susan, Liza,
I understand that this was not your point, but, Coconuts are not soft on the inside. The very center of the mature coconut, is the Coconut Water (not to be confused m=with Coconut Milk), that is high in carbs and low in fat.
The white flesh, that was considered to be soft, is actually quite hard. It is loaded with Saturated Fat (Butter averages about 55% Saturated Fatty Acids, while Coconut averages about 91-93% Saturated Fat…the more Saturated, the harder the fat).
I know that the Hard-Soft dichotomy was meant to represent what you might fantasize about a man, but it works much better in the opposite direction.
Coconuts, where they live, are quite plentiful. But, while everyone can enjoy their fruits, you have to put in a good amount of work to get it (climb the tree, break through a protective shell, etc.).
But, once you put in the work, it is worth it. They are beautiful and pure on the inside. They are very nourishing, and, on more than one level. The Coconut Water is perfect for re-hydrating after a hard workout. And, the Coconut flesh, and resulting Milk and/or Oil, is one of the only things on earth that is high in Lauric Acid. Lauric Acid can, basically, only be found in one other place:
Mother’s Milk.
the most masculine, “in charge” women are the ones with the strongest desire for this stuff, and we have a lot of women like that today.
Isn’t this also true of men, that it’s the CEOs and politicians who want to be dominated?
I have a MSW therapist friend who tells me that a lot of people who are into BDSM are also rather prudish deep down inside. They think that sex is dirty and can’t enjoy it “voluntarily,” someone has to “make” them.
Ana: for white gringos with a dark skinned lady companion which means that they probably though I was a hooker, very common there, but also means no other hookers bothered him, professional courtesy and all that.
Ramble: This made me smile (because of how clever it was) and sad at the same time
I have a friend who is a combination of black, white and Native American. Her husband is Nordic white, and as a result he kids are very light-skinned. My friend is frequently mistaken for their nanny. I find that both funny and sad.
Actually, in my experience, it is withholding the vajayjay that gets them to fall for you. Just my 2 cents here.
LOL. Too true!
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