Women want their romance heroes to be like coconuts: hard and tough on the outside, but soft and sweet on the inside. But the hero’s sweet interior can’t be available to just anyone. Only the heroine gets to crack him open. The hero is granted free reign to be a badass with everyone else, as long as he’s tender and attentive with the heroine.
Ogi Ogas, A Billion Wicked Thoughts
The 50 Shades of Grey phenomenon has captured the worldwide attention of readers, industry observers and media outlets. Its publication is a remarkable success story that touches on several of my personal interests:
- Female psychology and sexuality
- Politics and feminism
- Literature and stories
- Business and economics
In researching this post, I came across quotes from readers, and reports from writers, but no journalist who had both read the book and discussed its significance. Last week I read the first two books in the trilogy, and will review the first book here. Please be aware that this post is a spoiler. It’s not possible to discuss the extraordinary event that is 50 Shades while attempting to hide the story’s arc and ending. If you don’t want to learn what happens in the book, stop here.
EL James originally wrote the story as Twilight fan fiction, posting it for free on her favorite fanfic site. 50 Shades bears little resemblance to the Twilight series on the face of it, but there are some underlying common themes:
- An innocent, socially awkward heroine with pale skin and dark hair. (Note the author’s appearance.)
- A powerful, enigmatic, damaged male.
- Love at first sight.
- Two parties so different in their wants and needs that a lasting relationship appears impossible.
- True love conquers all.
The Synopsis
Anastasia (Ana) Steele is a 21 year old college senior who has never dated a boy, much less had sex. In fact, she confesses at one point that she has never masturbated or even touched herself. She states that she has never met a man before who made her “want to be kissed.” She is deeply introverted, described as ordinary in appearance, and spectacularly clumsy: “gawky and uncoordinated.” She works part-time at a hardware store, her primary extracurricular activity. She has never owned a computer, and doesn’t even have an email address. An English major, she frequently references Tess of the D’Urbervilles. Her father died when she was young, and her mother is on husband #4. The book begins with Ana filling in for a sick roommate who’s editor of the student newspaper. She travels three hours to Seattle to interview Christian Grey, one of the college’s benefactors.
Grey is a 27 year-old telecommunications magnate. We never learn how he made his fortune, but we do learn a lot about his traumatic childhood. Like TV serial killer Dexter, he was adopted at the age of four, after he was found alone with the dead body of his crack whore mother, who had been dead several days. His chest is covered with cigarette burn scars.
He happens to be gorgeous – Ana describes him as the epitome of male beauty, having “intense bright gray eyes that regard me shrewdly.” He has unruly, copper-colored curls, a straight nose, and square jaw. Clumsy Ms. Steele literally stumbles, then falls into his office, which for some strange reason causes his eyes to glow hot with desire. Their meeting is all raised eyebrows and sardonic grins (Christian), combined with awkward pauses, blurting, stuttering and blushing (Ana).
Soon after, Grey saves her life from a crazed bike messenger, but when she falls into his arms with relief he warns “You should steer clear of me. I am not the man for you,” and “I don’t do the girlfriend thing.” Nonetheless, a few days later he sends her a $14,000 first edition of Tess, then invites her to his Seattle apartment for dinner, where she plans to lose her virginity. Once there, he asks her to sign a non-disclosure agreement, leading her to ask, “Does this mean you’re going to make love to me tonight, Christian?”
“No, Anastasia, it doesn’t. Firstly, I don’t make love. I fuck…hard. Secondly, there’s a lot more paperwork to do, and thirdly, you don’t yet know what you’re in for. You could still run for the hills.”
He shows her his Playroom, equipped with chains, cuffs, ropes, floggers, canes and bizarre metal instruments of all kinds. He proposes a three month trial contract, during which he will dictate nearly every aspect of her life: what she eats, wears, and how she exercises. She will be his “sub” every weekend, bending to his will and obeying him in all things. She must agree to keep her eyes cast downward unless given permission to gaze upon him directly.
Grey got his own start with kinky sex as a sub at 15, when a friend of his mother’s seduced and dominated him, regularly “beating the shit out of him.” That monogamous relationship lasted for 10 years, and he never made a single friend during that time, even at college. When it ended, he became a dom and has had 15 women under contract prior to Ana.
“I’m fully aware this is a dark path I’m leading you down, Anastasia.”
Anastasia demands time to mull it over, a few weeks during which Christian has vanilla sex with her in his bed and breaks many other of his rules, including sleeping in the same bed, introducing her to his mother and the rest of his family, flying her in his helicopter, then his glider. The one thing he refuses her is permission to touch his scarred chest. He prefers that her hands be pinned down or tied to prevent it. He uses a silk gray necktie to accomplish this. Desperate to touch the man she quickly falls in love with, this “hard limit” causes her deep anguish.
She never does sign the contract, but she does have sex as his sub three times. (They have vanilla sex many more times.) Twice he spanks her with his bare hand, and the third time she allows him to hit her with a feathery flogger. She is sexually aroused during these activities, but makes clear she would prefer a more “normal” sexual relationship. She tells him that she is submissive only to please him, and expresses her doubts that they are compatible. Finally, unable to delay his desire to inflict real pain, he whips her bare bottom with a belt six times, an experience she finds excruciatingly painful. When it’s over, sobbing, she ends their relationship, declaring that neither one can give the other what they want and need.
End of Part One (first in a trilogy)
The second book focuses on Grey’s trying to win her back as a man cured of the desire to control and harm. At this point, the relationship is extremely romantic and gentle. Grey’s aggressive tendencies are limited to those who would try to steal his girl away from him. He begs Ana never to leave him, and offers her marriage and children. He learns to enjoy her touch. It is a truly miraculous exorcism of demons.
The Review
The writing is terrible. Really, embarrassingly bad. James is English, and the book was originally published by a small Australian virtual publishing firm. Vintage has acquired the rights and will republish the book in the U.S. this month – let’s hope their editors make significant improvements. Focus Entertainment purchased the movie rights for $5 million.
James relies heavily on trite gimmicks, using them so repetitively in the book that they became a profound annoyance. One is the insertion of the italicized “oh my” whenever Ana feels a surge of sexual attraction for Christian. By my count, this is inserted into the narrative 68 times. She also says “holy cow” a lot, 82 times by Maureen Dowd’s count.
Another is Christian’s constant remarking on Ana’s biting her bottom lip. She does this so frequently it’s surprising it isn’t bruised and bloodied, and whenever he notices this behavior in public Christian “growls” a command that she save it for later. (Grey is very fond of growling.)
The Phenomenon
50 Shades was published in June, 2011, and became #1 on the New York Times bestseller list last month. There’s been little distribution of the printed version; 90% of its sales have been for e-readers.
The original buyers were followers of EL James’ previous fan fiction, and the book became a word of mouth sensation almost immediately. Indeed, the publishing industry is reeling over the potential in the formula “fan fiction + erotica + digital delivery = big bucks.” It’s being hailed as the secret to revitalizing the industry.
Forbes reports that Harper Collins has founded a new division called Mischief just for these kinds of properties:
Surprised and pleased by the sudden interest in the romance sub-genre, publishers are scrambling to ride the wave, saying Fifty Shades will likely generate a fresh cycle of female-targeted erotica packaged for the mainstream reader.
…Where there’s money to be made, the industry will follow. HarperCollins UK last week announced the launch of Mischief, its new erotic romance e-book imprint. It will push titles like Red Grow the Roses, an “original and thrilling vampire erotica” novel, and Sisters in Sin, a “haunting and intensely arousing” tale of a woman’s travels in Italy. Mischief executives say the imprint has been in the works for a year and is not a direct response to James’ series, but admit they are thrilled with the lead-in it provides.
For a look at the popularity of the romance genre, consider these sales numbers for 2011:
- Romance: $1.37 billion
- Inspirational: $759 million
- Mystery: $682 million
- Sci Fi and Fantasy: $559 million
- Literary Fiction: $455 million
Who are the women buying 50 Shades? There’s a perception that the original demographic was largely a married, over 30 crowd, though the evidence is strictly anecdotal. The Christian Science Monitor interviewed one reader and blogger:
In Shari Von Holten’s neighborhood, it started with a buzz among friends on Facebook. Then Van Holten’s Long Island neighbors started asking each other about the book the street, discreetly, or during chance encounters at the market. “My friends were saying things like: ‘I just finished it, it’s the best,’” says Von Holten. Intrigued, she floated the title at her book club’s next meeting, and the women quickly agreed to read it for March.
Media outlets have snarkily dubbed it “mommy porn” as a result. An article in The New York Times suggests the book has massive crossover appeal:
We’re making a statement that this is bigger than one genre,” said Anne Messitte, the publisher of Vintage Anchor, who discovered the book when a colleague at Random House slipped her a copy. “The people who are reading this are not only people who read romance. It’s gone much broader than that.
…This book has been credited with something else: introducing women who usually read run-of-the-mill literary or commercial fiction to graphic, heavy-breathing erotica.
Many readers have expressed that they’re bringing their newfound sexual arousal to their own bedrooms:
In the cities and suburbs of New York, Denver and Minneapolis, the women who have devoured the books say they are feeling the happy effects at home.
“It’s relighting a fire under a lot of marriages,” said Lyss Stern, the founder of DivaMoms.com and one of the early fans of the series. “I think it makes you feel sexy again, reading the books.”
Julie Gerstenblatt agrees, describing her enthusiasm at HuffPo:
Here’s the fun (funny? strange? uncomfortable to admit?) part: When you put the book down, you will actually want to have sex with your husband. Like, a lot.
After 13 years of marriage, it’s a damned revelation.
“Matt’s exhausted,” my friend, Sarah, told me.
“Jim’s excited that there’s a sequel!” another friend said.
“It’s actually a trilogy,” Sarah said, slightly awe-struck. With over 900 pages of E. L. James on our bedside tables, we could all be having sex with our husbands… indefinitely.
“Jeff and I are going away this weekend – should I bring this book?” Amy asked.
“Yes!” We told her.
Yes, I tell you. Yes, and yes, and oh, baby, yes.
Reportedly, stores in NYC have seen a sharp increase in the sales of gray silk ties. Publicist Alison Brod told the New York Post that the novel is “the new Kabbalah for female bonding in this city.”
Not surprisingly, some men find the phenomenon unnerving. Fox News reports:
While women are applauding the book, some men are expressing concern over whether women should be insulted by a plot dominated by a man who tells a woman when to sleep, eat, work out and even how to groom herself. Television host Dr. Drew Pinsky recently called the book a “rape fantasy.”
Frank Santo at the New York Daily News read 50 Shades on his Kindle while commuting on the subway, and found it profoundly discomfiting.
I’M JUST READING A BOOK ABOUT SPORTS OVER HERE FOLKS, I’M JUST A GUY READING ABOUT SPORTS.
This experience, needless to say, was unpleasant. As is so often the case with sexual matters, this book left me feeling confused, bothered and seriously doubting whether or not I understood what was going on.
Ultimately, he rejected any notion of a romantic storyline.
Firstly, and I can’t believe anyone would argue otherwise, “50 Shades of Grey” is pornography, plain and simple. There could be no other use for it. The narrative is comprised of 9 or 10 lengthy yet well-paced sex scenes tied together with some mindless, almost purposefully banal filler about Anastasia Steele’s college life. I think I remember Christian Grey playing a piano in one scene. That happened right? I don’t know, I was extremely anxious and uncomfortable the whole time. But this is exactly why this book matters. It manages, miraculously, to be at once pornographic and deeply unappealing to men – it is a kind of pornography that attracts only women, and thus far it is selling off the charts.
Alecia Simmonds, writing in the Australian publication Daily Life, disagrees, seeing 50 Shades as traditional romance fiction:
This is not to suggest that the tedious prose or conceptual vapidity of E. L. James should be compared with Austen, Bronte, Smith or Rousseau. But romance has the potential to explore the relationship between power and intimacy, which, in relegating romantic fiction to the trivial, we seem to have collectively ignored.
Of course women are also reading erotic romance for the same reason as we scoured our parents’ bookshelves for The Joy of Sex when teenagers. It offers a pulse-quickening, delicious delight. There is an absence of good erotic writing in serious literature and a puritanical disdain for literary descriptions of sex. We applaud literature if it makes us weep or inspires indignation. Rarely do we give credit when a book leaves us breathless, coy and pleasurably twitching.
But she also claims the sub-dom theme is a new low:
More than anything, the book shows us how much mainstream porn – with all its hair-pulling, choking and fantasies of violence – has made BDSM seem terribly ordinary. What were once transgressive sexual practices have become standard mumsy desires.
I’m nor so sure. I recall reading Diana Gabaldon’s Outlander in the 90s, the first in a series of highly successful romance novels set in the 1700s. In it a woman’s husband beats her when she misbehaves, and the sexual tension is palpable. They are both aroused by it. This proved controversial and was ultimately justified by pointing out the novel was set in a time when wives were property. That didn’t prevent contemporary women from considering the book extremely sexy, however.
Rachel, a 39 year-old lawyer who spoke with ABC News, describes what I think resonates most for many women:
“I loved the book — all three,” said Rachel, who has been married to her husband since she was 19 and has a healthy sex life. “But this is pretty hard-core porn.”
“The first book is very, very graphic and harsh with a lot of S & M – and quite frankly, did not do it for me,” she said. “I would never try anything with pain.”
But, she got hooked on the romance that develops in the second book, when Steele tries to change Grey. “What I loved was that it was a great love story.”
The heart of the romance is the notion of submission and the way in which Steele accommodates Grey to “make him love her,” according to Rachel.
“She sees being submissive as a necessity to save him,” she said. “He was broken. That was more of the appeal. And the sex was a bonus.”
The Backlash
From the New York Times article:
The trilogy has its detractors. Commentators have shredded the books for their explicit violence and antiquated treatment of women, made especially clear in the character of Anastasia, an awkward naif who consents to being stalked, slapped and whipped with a leather riding crop.
“What I found fascinating is that there are all these supermotivated, smart, educated women saying this was like the greatest thing they’ve ever read,” said Meg Lazarus, a 38-year-old former lawyer in Scarsdale, whose friends and acquaintances have been buzzing about the book. “I don’t get it. There’s a lot of violence, and this guy is abhorrent sometimes.”
Other feminists have found the book true to the goals of sex positive feminism. From Fox News:
Jill Filipovic, a blogger with Feministe.com told Fox411.com that because the book depicts a consensual relationship (Steele does sign that contract), she is unconcerned.
(Note: This is incorrect, as Steele never does sign the contract. She does consent to being tied at the wrists and hit on three occasions, which is the mildest form of domination stipulated in the contract. But Grey makes nearly all of the concessions. He never performs any act without her permission, though he does several times ask Steele to trust him rather than disclose what he has in mind. The sex in the book barely ventures out of vanilla territory, and when it finally does, Ana ends the relationship.)
“Amy Robach for NBC News says that the novel answers the age old question of what women really want. Never mind being left breathless or captivated, says Robach, this book makes it clear that domination and submission are on the minds of most American women.”
“We had the women’s movement which really was about empowering women not to be submissive to men anymore. Now we’ve moved onto a new generation where women are more empowered than ever before, the glass ceiling has been broken and we have as much control as we want. And what are we longing for? A little bodice ripping,” answers author Laura Berman to NBC.
The always insightful James Taranto at the Wall St. Journal agrees:
Female and male pornography are very much two sides of the same coin. While the former tends to be literary and the latter visual, neither has much pretension of being high art (except when such pretensions are useful in First Amendment cases). More interestingly, both present a similar sexual fantasy world, in which women are submissive and men dominant–though because each sex is interested in its opposite, female porn emphasizes the male-dominance aspect of the fantasy and male porn the female-submission aspect.
Bennett, Dowd and Bruni all puzzle over the seeming contradiction between the success of feminism in “empowering” women and the cultural products of which the trio disapprove. It should be noted that neither dirty pictures nor dirty books (“romance novels,” as they’re euphemistically called) are anything new. But it may be that they have become more graphic, more popular or both. At the very least, it is clear that the sexual fantasies of men and women do not conform to the feminist ideal of relations between generic and equal “persons.”
Taranto, who happens to be the only mainstream journalist I’ve ever seen write about hypergamy, goes on to share the work of anthropologist Heather Remoff, who studied female mating preferences in the 70s. Interviewing 66 women about their combined 261 sexual partners, they cited 23 different traits correlated to male sexual success:
- good-looking (43%)
- intelligent (40%)
- good income potential (40%)
- control of social resources (37%)
- food provided (36%)
- control of material resources (36%)
- protective toward female (35%)
- male older (30%)
- male dominant toward female (28%)
- confident (26%)
- well-educated (23%)
- good build (23%)
- aggressive (22%)
- generous (22%)
- accurate focus (21%)
- chemistry (21%)
- eye contact (19%)
- baby fantasies (18%)
- outstanding talent (17%)
- high status (16%)
- tall (16%)
- good with children (15%)
- female’s parents approved (5%)
The attraction to most of these traits is a manifestation of female hypergamy–especially “good-looking,” which turns out to have quite a different meaning for women than for men: “Every woman responds to a man whose looks correspond to her particular stereotype of power,” Remoff observes in a passage she italicizes.
This effort to equalize the sexes has created a sexual disequilibrium. For a high-status or powerful woman, a higher-status or more powerful man is hard to find. Although that works out nicely for the highest-status men, it is much more difficult for the average man to make himself an attractive prospect for women. Result: a lot of lonely people of both sexes, and an eager market for pornography of both the visual and literary kinds.
Ogi Ogas, author of A Billion Wicked Thoughts, explains the dual nature of the female’s fantasies:
The majority of women have submission fantasies. From classic romance The Flame and The Flower to classic erotica The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty to Twilight BDSM fan fiction (SW: e.g., 50 Shades), submission themes are immensely popular in cross-cultural female erotica. The fact of the matter is that most heterosexual women are wired to find sexual submission arousing–and so are most female mammals.
For the vast majority of romance readers, the hero should be a strong, confident, swaggering alpha. “I think this is one of the problems we’re having in romance in general right now: our heroes have gotten a little too PC. We’re portraying men the way feminist ideals say they should be – respectful and consensus-building,” muses erotic romance author Angela Knight.
Women just don’t want a nice guy – they want an alpha who learns to be nice to her. Women are designed to look for clues that there is a sweet interior worth getting at. Kindness and understanding are most attractive with the tough shell of alpha-hood.
Men are aroused by being dominant and by submissive women, women are aroused by being submissive and by dominant men. In the bedroom, inequality beats equality. Negotiating sexual politics has always been difficult, but paradoxically the laudable and necessary victories of gender equality activism might make it even more challenging. We’re all figuring out how to live in the first society in human history where women have such power, independence, and clout. But just as democracy has no effect on our basic taste preferences for sugar and fat, democracy doesn’t affect our basic sexual preferences for domination and submission.
Fifty Shades of Grey is the first blockbuster novel to entirely bypass the behemoth publishing industry and the mainstream media. It exploded on the scene thanks to word of mouth among readers, aided by the discreet digital format. No feminists or feminist-leaning institutions had the opportunity to influence the content or its delivery. Despite the poor writing quality, 50 Shades delivers what contemporary women are starving and clamoring for. Anastasia Steele gets her coconut; hard and tough on the outside, soft and sweet on the inside. That’s the ultimate female fantasy.
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Interesting to juxtapose this with the other thread (sexy women get free things/50 shades).
Harlequin et al have been pumping out variations on “He was an asshole til he kissed me” for as long as I’ve been aware of the genre.
It seems like in the last fifteen or twenty years there’s been a real divergence in how girls and guys are socialized through reading and gaming. My sense is that if boys are reading fiction it’s of the fantasy quest/Lord of the Rings variety or playing games based on that model while girls have been introduced to the typical bodice-ripper themes at a pretty young age. So you wind up with boys having a view that girls will respond to a (white) knight returning from a valiant quest bearing gifts, while girls are being taught that they should ignore the boys that express real interest in them in because the one that really want to catch is the boy who shows the *least* interest.
Sounds like the current SMP, no?
Isn’t this also true of men, that it’s the CEOs and politicians who want to be dominated?
It is my understanding that many of those men that want to be dominated are executives. It is also my understanding that those executives that want to eb dominated make up a tiny minority of all executives.
@J
I’m officially calling that a crock of shit.
@Ramble
Okay, that’s it…before anyone else comments on who wants to be dominated and why you need to go to three local munches and a club night and provide a report, at least three pages single spaced, about the kinds of people you met
Herb, my main was this:
Whatever man that likes to be dominated, he is going to make up a tiny percentage of overall men, in any category or demographic.
@Ramble
My main point was a joke, but that being said as one of the few (if not only) HUS poster who is active in the lifestyle: except for my D&D buddies everyone I socialize with is in and I meant in the S&M scene in some form (although I’m sure tri people will start filling in some too). Until two weeks ago the only organization I was a member of was the National Leather Association.
So I see all these characterizations and at best they discuss the paid community, those who see pro-Dommes. That’s like analyzing the SMP by profiling johns. At worst they are just incorrect stereotypes.
That’s why I disagree with Susan et al about how many of this book’s readers will at least dip their toe into the scene. We routinely get exactly the kind of women described as reading it: 30+ frustrated housewives (many stepping out on hubby) or divorced former housewives looking for a real man to take her. When something pop culture wise that is more explicit hits we see a pop in the number of these women coming out.
@DerHahn
So you’re saying these tendencies are cultural rather than physiological? Seems like a tempting reality to me, but It’ll take a lot of convincing before I believe this.
It is also my understanding that those executives that want to eb dominated make up a tiny minority of all executives.
That would not surprise me.
They think that sex is dirty and can’t enjoy it “voluntarily,” someone has to “make” them….I’m officially calling that a crock of shit.
OK, though I would think that the BDSMers that she sees are a self-selected group and that her observations might well be true of that subset of BDSMers.
In your experience, what is the attraction to being submissive? Personally, I love my autonomy (child of overbearing parents). I have little desire to dominate and less to be dominated. I can undersstand a desire to feel swept away by passion, but after that, meh.
@J
Most serious lifestyle submissives have a strong service orientation, even among those who disclaim it.
Common phrases you’ll hear are “being useful”, “seeing him smile”, “pleasing him”, “being of service” and so on. So there is a strong sense of pleasure and self-worth from pleasing or being of use to the other person.
Another common metaphor is being the hand to the head. Working D/s relationships are very much a combination of compliments where one partner is action and one is direction (although don’t read TOO much into that…lots of Dominants do things and lots of submissives are in charge of things like finances or running the household, but in ways that the Dominant partner’s preferences define).
There is also just plain pleasure in being used. Certainly if you understand being ravished you can see that. Some of us enjoy extending it beyond sex to S&M play and even parts of day to day life. In some ways I even enjoy S&M where the specific activity isn’t something I enjoy but my partner does. My pleasure there is in being used for her pleasure in the whole and in not the specific way.
Finally, I’d say there is great pleasure in just not deciding. Note: not deciding does not, in functional D/s relationships, mean not having input nor does it mean not having your way. What it does mean is that the ultimate choice is hers, which sometimes she defers to my preference at that time but even then we both know that’s a gift to me from her.
@Ian
Well said. I’ve written about your second point many times, but your first point, about that way we’re raising children, is spot on, IMO.
@Ramble
You’re so literal, you crack me up sometimes.
I took the coconut analogy straight from Ogi Ogas’ book, so take it up with him.
@DerHahn
Good call, that’s a great insight.
You’re so literal, you crack me up sometimes.
I look for any opportunity to go off on a tangent.
I took the coconut analogy straight from Ogi Ogas’ book, so take it up with him.
I really just wanted to tout the benefits of Coconut. I understand that some people are still quite leery of “too much” Saturated Fat, but, Coconuts are wonderfully healthy.
When you have grand children, and if their mothers have difficulty breast feeding, please remember that Coconuts are one of the few sources of Lauric Acid. Which is an essential fatty acid.
Actually, whether they can, or can’t, breast fed, it is a great thing.
It is also why you will see things like Palm Oil (from Oil Palms, similar to Coconut Palms) in so many baby food products.
They are? That is news to me.
DerHahn – “So you wind up with boys having a view that girls will respond to a (white) knight returning from a valiant quest bearing gifts, while girls are being taught that they should ignore the boys that express real interest in them in because the one that really want to catch is the boy who shows the *least* interest”
Holy crap you are on to something here. Boys are being taught to shower women in gifts and preferential treatment, while girls are learning that the most valuable man is one that isn’t giving her the time of day.
What the hell are we doing to our kids?!
Ramble – “They are? That is news to me.”
Sure. Look at the type of man that is supposedly alpha: Aloof, unconcerned with others opinions, is not concerned with specific outcomes with any specific woman, not to mention the power struggles with “party of least interest”. Add in that most romance novels revolve around a hard to get man that does his best to keep from being tied down by the women.
Yeah, I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that at least some young girls/women believe that the best man is one they can’t actually have.
@ Maggie
It interesting that the women are curious about this book and the men are sort of turned off.
____________
By the sounds of it, some men are threatened by it.
@Herb #153
(Antecdote is not data, sample of one, your mileage may vary, insert other disclaimers as you like)
Based on my current FWB girl I can definitely see it happening. She had a very strict Pentacostal upbringing in the midwest, graduated from a church college, then headed off to the big windy city and (from what I gather) had a short but pretty wild ride on the carousel. I’m inclined to believe it too since she was pursuing a career as a professional singer/dancer while working in an upscale department store in the early 2000s. I’m familar (from the outside) with BDSM, and we’ve done a little bondage play and spanking. She’s quite sexual but definitely gives off the vibe of wanting to be ‘punished’ for her pleasures and/or forced to submit.
Actually, I have read a romance and thought it was very well done. So it’s possible to not write tripe (though I have no idea what you mean after the “but”). Though romances NEVER have plot holes? lol That’s gotta be one of the silliest things I’ve read.
And I’ve written plenty on motivations etc.
http://impishidea.com/writing/writing-tips-plot-holes-loose-ends-and-asspulls
http://impishidea.com/writing/writing-tips-plotholes-vs-motivation
http://impishidea.com/writing/writing-tips-rational-reasonable
Sassy
Spoiler alert: She (and all his previous subs) is a dead ringer for his crack whore mother.
Bwahaha!!
That just makes things even better.
Thanks for that added piece of info.
So the guy has an Oedipus complex too, and she’s okay with this?
Priceless.
________________
It is my understanding women are not buying this book for its literary value or plot. They are buying it for its ability to cause the “tingle” are they not?
Sure. Look at the type of man that is supposedly alpha: Aloof, unconcerned with others opinions …
And you taught your daughters this?
Or, showed them Disney movies with these kinds of princes?
We taught them this?
I understood what he was trying to say, and I agreed with the first part. But, IME, we are not teaching them this.
Add in that most romance novels revolve around a hard to get man that does his best to keep from being tied down by the women.
Again, what polite society attempts to teach and what some choose to pursue are often two different things.
Ramble – “Again, what polite society attempts to teach and what some choose to pursue are often two different things.”
*I* taught my daughter no such thing. But at some point parents take the back seat and friends/frenemies/Justin Beiber take over and that means Pop culture becomes their teacher. I’ve always tried to stay in touch with what my children are watching/listening to, but how many parents have a clue what the lyrics to the children’s favorite song actually say? I bet far too few. How many parents even know what their children are reading? Again my impression is far too few. Perhaps it is because of where I live, but I would say that only a hand full of parents in our school district even know what music their children listen to, let alone what the lyrics of those songs are teaching them. I know that several of the kids in my son’s class watch trash like “16 and Pregnant” regularly because I hear them talking about it.
and are you really suggesting that what we have here in the U.S. is in anyway “polite society”?
@Anacaona
“…sweet Daniel… Now I feel like getting Stargate on Netflix”
I remember that. Total STEM boys’ dream: having your crazy theory proven right, your eccentric area of study leading to alien discoveries, earning the repect of your male peers that you can be “one of the guys”, and having the cute girl fall in love with you over long lost ruins. What’s not to like!
@Tom
Busted! Once again you’ve come straight to the comment threads without reading the post. The story is an important part of the book’s appeal. Female porn is emo porn – sex scenes alone really don’t do it for us.
But at some point parents take the back seat and friends/frenemies/Justin Beiber take over and that means Pop culture becomes their teacher.
Ted, we are heading down a path that we have been down before.
So, what was it that our daughters are being taught, and what is it that they are seeking out themselves.
For instance, Romance Novels. We are taught about Shakespeare and Dickens. We read Twain and Aldous Huxley. We are encouraged to read Goethe and Tolstoy.
After the teachers are gone, boys seek out sports stories and war heroes. The girl go to things like Romance Novels and RomComs.
So, sure, parents and teachers, as well as friends and peers will encourage and support all sorts of things. But, what we ultimately choose to read/buy/watch/etc. says a ton about our individual selves.
And, as far as I can tell, boys are being taught to be White Knights, in general, but girls are not being taught to seek out aloof douche bags as mates.
and are you really suggesting that what we have here in the U.S. is in anyway “polite society”?
Finding the right phrase can be difficult for me.
Ramble – “And, as far as I can tell, boys are being taught to be White Knights, in general, but girls are not being taught to seek out aloof douche bags as mates.”
My bad, I missed your actual point. So the question is: why are young women turning to this if they aren’t being taught it? In short, what you are suggesting is that societies primary role historically for women has been to teach them restraint FROM these behaviors? And, lacking that teaching, this is what we get?
Yeah, we’ve been down this road. I didn’t see the last turn coming here, but I’m afraid you had the map handy.
@Ana
you can keep your nerd card, but you’re missing some very fine comedy. Boston Legal was one of my must wtches. These days, I don’t have any…everything on TV seems to have turned into a melodrama about a kick-arse woman who beats up men three times her size, but has a tender vulnerable side too and she probably has an unconventional looking sexy side kick + super powers + magical abilities + drink /drugs problem + tragic childhood.
Nothing wrong with good old Capt Kirk kicking the arse of the alien and shagging his bird, no melodrama needed beyond a couple of short soft focus close-ups on the bint’s fizzog.
Just want to toss in that Stargate was FUCKING EPIC.
Every episode of all 17 seasons (maybe 18, my count could be bad).
Plus the movies.
Nerd me FTW!!
@Lokland
I had just started finding Stargate Universe interesting when they cancelled it – damn them. The soap opera drama was being replaced by real mystery and a mission. gaaah!
My bad, I missed your actual point.
No worries. This topic is a hobby horse of mine.
You can be sure that almost any time someone says, or implies, that “society is teaching us to X” when it is doing no such thing, that I will jump in.
It is simply one more way that we attempt to not take full responsibility for our actions. And it is especially disturbing when that kind of argument is used to further infantilize girls when they are supposedly empowered.
I understand that we are all influenced by all sorts of things, but, ultimately, we need to own the choices that we have made.
Just1,
If you simply took the word “woman” and replaced it with “man”, it would describe, almost perfectly, the male in so many Romance Novels and Twihard movies.
Susan,
Busted! Once again you’ve come straight to the comment threads without reading the post. The story is an important part of the book’s appeal. Female porn is emo porn – sex scenes alone really don’t do it for us.
+++++++++
You are not such a good detective. I did read the entire post and every comment. Ive been here for over an hour. While it has a plot, most say the plot stinks and the writing is of a very bad variety. Sure it involves fantacy S&M, things most women only think/dream about, but after all if it were not for the sex scenes (about 10?) the book would not sell many copies. Am I correct?
Just one point on the 50 shades of brown.
Clearly the guy being a billionare (well, technically a telecommunications magnate, but reading between the lines f’ing rich) was helpful in opening certain ‘opportunities’ with her. Wouldn’t his character have been slightly more believable if he were older? Was 6 years older the limit allowed in women’s porn? I know he who zucks was young, but seriously 6 years from graduation and he’s a magnate?
My point, finally, is are may-december romances verboten in femme porn in the feminist era? Are sugar-daddies just not sexy in theory (as opposed to in real life, where the money is being spent on the younger woman)?
@Ramble
that is a damn fine point. are they pushing the old style hero for boys, to girls, by just flipping the sex?
I wouldn’t have bet on this working, but xena / buffy / lost girl / dark angel (IIRC) / Chuck etc suggest that I’m wrong.
Has it now got to be illegal to have a strong male lead? doubly illegal if he has no kick-arse bint side-kick, who is natually more mature and a bit smarterer?
Susan, yeah the plot comes into it, she is a virgin plain jane (lots of romance novels are like this) yeah she gets the hunk to pay attention to her (lots of romance books do this too) The S&M twist is different to be sure, as is the contract. But lets face the fact that if not for the tingles, this book would not sell. How much of the plot is part of the tingle is subjective and will differ from woman to woman.
Ana makes Grey’s healing her mission. “This man, whom I once thought of as a romantic hero, a brave shining white knight – or the dark knight as he said. He’s not a hero; he’s a man with serious, deep emotional flaws, and he’s dragging me into the dark. Can I not guide him into the light?”
___________
LOL
Susan,
“Clearly, women are buying 50 Shades at least in part for the sex scenes, of which there are about ten. They are very graphic, and very representative of what one sees in porn. There is an intense connection between Ana and Christian, and that shows in the sex.”
_____________
Yeah Im busted……Not
Women may want coconuts, but are men that much more realistic? Or do we just have a greater ability to differentiate our male-coconut from realistically the old bag we’ll have to settle for?
male version of a coconut
Stunning looks, but mysteriously unaware of them whilst wearing sexy clothes by accident.
Virgin, but an acts like an experienced hellcat in the bedroom (in a good way)
Madonna like femininity and sensitivity to the man (when not required to be in hellcat mode)
Desire for sex lasts a lifetime
No interest in gossip, or indeed talking very much
No interest in visiting friends’ weddings and christenings
Are these not just as much fantasy as the women’s?
Just1x – that is a mighty fine coconut you described there.
Thanks for the explanantion and for taking my question seriously, Herb. After I posted it, I was afraid it might come off as fatuous or offensive.
There is also just plain pleasure in being used. Certainly if you understand being ravished you can see that.
OMG, I just realized what a selfish bitch I am! I actually regard being ravished as being done a service. LOL at myself.
Finally, I’d say there is great pleasure in just not deciding.
I can understand that. I tend to dither a lot about decisions, mostly because I’m a Perceiver. Peceivers tend to procrastinate decisions because they never feel like they have enough data. I can spend hours on what restaurant to try on a Saturday night, so I’m happy to let my husband decide things like that. It’s actually a relief to give up autonomy on that stuff and to let someone else sweat the small stuff. However, I can be very inflexible on questions of principle.
we both know that’s a gift to me from her.
That’s interesting. I regard DH taking care of details as a gift to me, or as a way of compensating for my weak area.
Something to keep in mind is that Hollywood has very few writers that are former Linebackers. I understand that this is an American analogy, but I am sure you get the idea.
I don’t know if you ever was the series “That 70′s Show”, but, I was consistently impressed that the father (played by Kurtwood Smith) was consistently shown in a respectful light.
That would make fun of his anger issues, but, that was about it. And, keep in mind, that this was a character who was not only NOT wealthy, but, at times, laid off and unemployed.
Yet, he was always the man of the house, and his wife adored him (she was also shown in a positive light even though she often quite traditional in her actions and views).
[Long Scene Synopsis]
One of my absolute favorite scenes involved his sons friend Steven Hyde (played by Danny Masterson). (His son is called Eric and his wife is called Kitty.)
Well, Hyde (they usually referred to him by his last name) was known to come from a completely dysfunctional family. Absentee, childish father, drinking and drugging mother… you get the idea.
His son Eric (Hyde’s friend) and his wife have been hinting that they should have Hyde stay with them. Well, Red (the father), keeps putting his foot down that Hyde will need to depend on family or Social Services (which Kitty does not want, because, as a nurse, she knows how bad that is) because Red has been aid off and he can’t even feed his own family.
Finally, they happen to stop by Hyde’s and see that he has not eaten in two days and he is living in absolute filth, with no idea where his mother is. Kitty, without saying so much, simply looks at Red and starts to whine a little (it was adorable). He looks at her and then looks at Hyde and finally commands, “Hyde, get your things! You are living with us now!”
Hyde, normally the toughest guy in the whole crew, and never one to take any charity, instantly changes his tune when he hears the father tell him this.
“Yes, sir” and literally runs to his room to get his things.
Kitty gives him a big kiss and brings Hyde to their car.
Red stands there alone for a moment, looks up at the sky/God/whatever and screams, “Son of a Bitch!”.
He understands that he must provide for others, even if he does not want to. And everyone loves him for it.
[/Long Scene Synopsis]
The show consistently showed that a strong traditional male head of household was a really important thing. I found that refreshing and surprising.
A few years after seeing that episode I read an article in The Atlantic that, for other reasons, interviewed the head producer of That 70′s Show and it turned out that he was a devout Christian with old-fashioned values who simply happened to be a writer in Hollywood. While I am not religious, after reading that, I was no longer surprised to see traditional values, at times, being supported or promoted on that particular show.
I just read synopses of the trilogy, and I am horrified! All my life I was taught that I had to (HAD TO) treat women with respect, and now I see that it is all a lie. Feminists just want to beat men down and make them feel like dirt because, in truth, that is how they perceive men in their fantasies. They wish to have that power for themselves, and that means treating men as horribly as they can imagine.
And then on top of that, women have exposed what they really value: incredibly good looking, super wealthy jerks who treat everyone poorly, but who becomes a better person because of their love (gag). I never want to hear women talk about spousal abuse again- their hypocrisy is disgusting!
So where does that leave kind, nice beta guys? All alone without a chance. It is better to be a billionaire, controlling jerk, or a blood-sucking vampire, than to be an ordinary guy who works hard, treats women with respect, and wants to be a good husband and father. I am completely depressed, especially because all of the comments about these books are so overwhelmingly positive.
F’ yeah! This too is not just one of the best moments of the show, but of television, period.
To be fair, Red yelled it so loudly that Hyde knew to not talk back. What’s best about the show is that while you might see Hyde talk back to most authority figures (cops, teachers, whoever), he would never EVER talk about to Red (well, early show, I didn’t watch any of its later seasons).
Plus you left out the line “I’m tried of being [beep]ing Santa Claus!” As well as Hyde later complaining to Eric about how Red yelled at him.
More than once, if Red was angry, all the kids would scatter. Kurtwood Smith was awesome. Him & Terry Crews are two of my all time favorite TV dads.
My point, finally, is are may-december romances verboten in femme porn in the feminist era? Are sugar-daddies just not sexy in theory (as opposed to in real life, where the money is being spent on the younger woman)?
My sense of things is that if May-December relationships really were something women fantasized about, there would be profit in publishing books, making films, etc. that centered on that theme, verboten or not. That there is no big mass market indicates to me that there is little demand. Sugar daddies are attractive to certain women BECAUSE they spend money, not because they are intrinsically hot. The money is compensation for the age difference.
@J
Oh, so do I, but allowing it so openly and without any control is seen as a gift.
Like I’m going to complain
@J
Let me ask you a question which is more realistically D/s:
1. The submissive bathing their Dominant as a form of body service like a lady’s maid or a butler.
2. The Dominant bathing their submissive as a form of carrying for their property.
“Submission” is not something that “all women want”, per se.
1. Not ALL women want this. So break off a chunk from that “All Women Want To Be Subs” Pie. I know from personal experience that being on the Pill really drove down my desire, and esp for anything smacking (yes, pun intended) of sub/dom. I wanted that “Hollywood passion”. I know, pathetic. But a lot of chicks are on the Pill. And I know a lot of women are experiencing lowered sexual arousal. Connected? I think so. I call BS on the reasoning that people are too stressed. I got off the Pill and no matter how busy I am, come ovulation (again, pun intended), I’m ready to jump the bones of even Urkel.
2. Of the women that want this, some may not want it all the time. So, break off another piece. Now that I’m off the Pill, I like it a bit rough during ovulation. When I’m not ovulating? You come near me with a tie and I’ll kick you in the balls.
So now we’re no longer left with ALL the pie.
Add to that that not all men like to be “dominant”. I’ve dated several guys who absolutely hated that shit. It not only didn’t do it for some, it actually was a huge TURN-OFF for some.
We’re painting with a pretty wide brush here — what, EXACTLY, constitutes “submission”? Or “dominance”? Submission seems to run the gamut from liking a playful spank to being humiliated or to being a slave. A problem I have with a lot of “manosphere” sites is this very broadness of the brush. Terms like “alpha” and “beta” and “nice guy” and “submissive” are thrown around without much thought or attempt to squarely define what they actually mean. Personally, I don’t mind that they mean different things to different people. But we should drop the “all women do X, Y, Z”and “All men do A,. B, C”, as if our own pre-defined view of a term catagorically defines an entire gender, male or female.
And finally, @Susan — I love your blog but have to disagree with (again, broad brush!) the dismissal of feminism. You wrote “again, all roads lead to feminism”. A common meme on sites such as HUS is that feminism is the cause of all (or most) ills. But this ignores that feminism wasn’t a cause, it was merely an effect of the natural progress, the economic pressures brought on by the world’s increasing interconnectedness. I’m not going to say “this is progress” because “progress” is a positive word. It’s an evolution. It’s neither good nor bad. It just is. As long as there is life it will continue, it will evolve. And it will necessitate upheavals. Feminism is this sort of upheaval. What we take issue with shouldn’t be what feminsism WAS, but what it has become. Feminism started (I’m going to grossly oversimplify here) because there was a huge need for women to have some semblance of control in their lives. However, feminism was SUCCESSFUL because of the evolving marketplace, where 1st women were targeted as consumers, and then because women were targeted as the best workers for this new economy. I’m NOT saying “right or wrong”. But to lay these relationship ills at the feet of feminism without regard for the pressures that lead to it’s need (and yes, it was a need) will leave you unprepared for our evolving world.
To be fair, Red yelled it so loudly that Hyde knew to not talk back.
That’s right!
Red knew that he was right and he was not going to care one fucking iota for Hyde to “act tough” in a moment like that, so, he told Hyde like he had a pair. Which he did.
And they all loved and respected him for it.
Plus you left out the line “I’m tried of being [beep]ing Santa Claus!” As well as Hyde later complaining to Eric about how Red yelled at him.
That’s right. It has been a long time since I have seen that episode, or, any episode of that show. Truth is, I was not a huge fan of the show. But, I definitely liked it and that was one of my all time favorite episodes, of any show.
My Dad and I have only gotten 2 seasons of it, pretty much just because of a few episodes they had. (that one being one of them)
Another fave of mine is when the kids end up in jail.
Cops run into Eric and realize who he is.
Cop1: Foreman? Are you Red Foreman’s son?
Eric: [nervous] …Yeah.
Cop2: You poor bastard.
No matter what anyone says, Red was the true star of that series.
I recommend you give “Everyone Hates Chris” a try sometime. It’s only 4 seasons, should be easy to rent/stream.
(Favorite line. Julius – the father – to a guy threatening Chris: “You touch my son again, and you won’t be going to jail. [Lifts up baseball bat.] I’m going to jail.”
@Tom
I apologize for accusing you of not reading the post. The writing is terrible, but the plot actually became compelling enough for me to throw down another $9.99 for the second book, lol. The sex is obviously a key factor, as many married women are claiming it’s reignited their libidos. However, as I said in the post, there is really only one scene I would describe as S&M, after which Anastasia leaves him. She had consented to being beaten, but is so miserable during and afterwards she decides she will never do it again. That’s where the first book ends.
I’ll guess: “2. The Dominant bathing their submissive as a form of carrying for their property.”
The writing is terrible, but the plot actually became compelling enough for me to throw down another $9.99 for the second book, lol.
The plot? Is that like buying Playboy for the articles?
@Just1X
One of the romance publishing execs mentioned in an interview that there are no plumbers or school teachers in the lead role of romance novels. The men are always extremely powerful and wealthy. In the historic tales, they’re usually noble in blood as well.
I agree that a 27 year old billionaire makes no sense, especially in an era when we keep hearing that adolescence has been officially extended to age 26. There is no explanation given for his fortune in the book, and he spends freely on gadgets and toys for himself and Ana.
I haven’t read enough romance to know if large age gaps are verboten. I think that just like in porn for males, women are most interested in reading about the sexual exploits of beautiful people, or at least people in their prime. This wasn’t always the case, e.g. Jane Eyre and Mr. Rochester.
I recommend you give “Everyone Hates Chris” a try sometime.
I believe it still exists in re-runs as well. I will take a look.
@Tom
I chose to feature the book focusing on dark vs. light, since I do that a lot here.
In the historic tales, they’re usually noble in blood as well.
Girls want their guys to have great genes and look great in jeans.
@Just1X
First, I appreciate the even handedness of your comment.
Second, you have my undying gratitude for not specifying “wants threesomes and lets me play.”
@Benton
Don’t take this so much to heart. The truth is, most people do not have any wish to live the story in the book. Women are channeling their arousal into having sex with their beta husbands, and that’s probably a good thing.
I’d like to think that men don’t really want the kinds of women I see in porn, with their long fake nails, half grapefruit boobs, being double penetrated. This is no different. It’s not real life.
I’d like to think that men don’t really want the kinds of women I see in porn, with their long fake nails, …
I am mostly speaking for myself, and on HUS you will get selection bias, but, we don’t.
… half grapefruit boobs …
It looks like someone took a duckpin bowling bowl, sawed it in half, and super glued it to her chest.
They simply, flat out, do not resemble what real breasts look like. That is, any kind of real breast…perfect, imperfect, perky, sagging … nothing.
I am not sure how many guys are into long fake fingernails. I always got the idea that since they seemed to signal that she was a complete slut, and therefore, an easy lay, then they were a good thing. But, I don’t think too many guys actually liked the appearance of them.
Or, to put it another way, when guys describe girls in the absolute most superficial way, long fingernails basically never come up.
It is a little like being attracted to tramp stamps. If she has a tramp stamp, that is good, because then she is a tramp. But, there is nothing about that particular tattoo (or any tattoo) that is attractive.
@SexyBearfriend
That’s a fair criticism, I’ll agree with you. It’s really not helpful for me to use throwaway lies about feminism. As you point out, there were a variety of things going on, including the Women’s Movement. But the Sexual Revolution never could have happened without the Pill. And that’s technology, not politics.
However, I do think that feminists have been largely successful in redefining American culture, even changing the way we raise and educate our children. We have feminized our males and masculinized our females, and we are seeing that play out now. I know that I grew up knowing that submission of any kind to a male is a shameful thing. That includes what happens in the bedroom as well as the boardroom. My brothers were taught that dominating or leading a female would make them chauvinistic jerks. That was real, and I’m sure I did the same thing to my own kids.
All movements have unintended consequences. The Women’s Movement has had many, and the current struggle of young American men can be traced back to it in a straight line. The first thing we as a society must do is acknowledge the truth of this. The second thing we must do is figure out how to restore gender equity, something we exceeded with female supremacy long ago. Until feminists do the first, they remain partly responsible for the state of men in this country, and should expect to answer for the sharply declining marriage and childbirth rate in the U.S.
Susan said:
“The second thing we must do is figure out how to restore gender equity”
___________________________
That right there is going to be the sticking point.
What is “equity”?
Everybody’s gonna have their own definition. Amanda Marcotte would probably rather die than accept Paul Elam’s definition as fact. Vox Day is on record as saying that equality between the sexes doesn’t exist in any practical form, anyway. (Apologies if I put words in your chow-holster, Vox)
When my Army of Flying Monkeys returns me to my rightful place as God Emperor of Life, The Universe, and Everything – we’ll use mine.
Until then, though…
@Ted D
Coconut? What can I say? Clearly I have a gift…:)
@Susan
threesomes? damn, I’ve revealed that I’m vanilla at my core
@Susan,
you know that you said that you fall for PlainJane every time…?
I see you have a new SexyBear friend.
My apologies to SBF if I’m casting aspersions erroneously
@Dogsquat
In my mind, we’ll know gender equity when we see it. We’ll have reached a point where, if not everyone is satisfied, at least the shouting will have quieted. The vast majority of members of both sexes will perceive our institutions and laws as fair. We’ve gone so far in favor of women at this point, it’s going to be very hard getting back. It will happen. Our current power balance is not sustainable. We can either do it on our own (doubtful) or some external event will do it for us. The pendulum always, always swings back.
“Until feminists do the first, they remain partly responsible for the state of men in this country, and should expect to answer for the sharply declining marriage and childbirth rate in the U.S.”
Planet population and environmental stress being what it currently is, is that decline a bad thing?
Felipe said:
“Planet population and environmental stress being what it currently is, is that decline a bad thing?”
______________________________
Dude, if this is a consideration for you, then exactly the wrong people are reproducing.
The SWPL folks with re-usable canvas grocery bags and a Prius (only for when public transportation is impractical) aren’t breeding. The folks chuckle about things like “religious tolerance” and think women are unclean during menses are busting out kids like lagomorphs.
“The SWPL folks with re-usable canvas grocery bags and a Prius (only for when public transportation is impractical) aren’t breeding. The folks chuckle about things like “religious tolerance” and think women are unclean during menses are busting out kids like lagomorphs.”
Many olympian breeders don’t even own a motorbike, forget about a car. Their environmental footprints are much smaller than SWPLs (whatever that is). And people who have the time, money and luxury to chuckle about religious tolerance usually have the time, money and luxury to leave a big footprint in their wake.
Susan, I agree with you.
Lately, I’ve been trying to figure out if I find the (moderate) MRM folks more palatable than most feminist mouthpieces because of my inherent bias, or is it because they lay out some overarching principles they are behind?
It’s a lot easier to nod along with a person who says “Present alimony laws are unfair in XYZ situations and should be changed!” than a person who looks at an incident, sees something crappy, and then indicts humanity going back for 3,000 years. In my biased view, the MRAs are doing more of the former, with feminists doing quite a bit of the latter.
I do get a bit nervous about laws, though. There are many things I do and believe in that are outside of the mainstream – I carry a concealed weapon almost everywhere, agnostic atheism (I just don’t care much about theology), pro-gay marriage, etc. I would fight like hell against a society that wanted to punish me for those beliefs.
I think the solution lies in what you’re attempting to do here, which is give people information that leads to a decent chance at success/contentment. That way, no laws need be involved. Peer/social pressure will lead to the attitude that,”Well, yeah – you CAN do whatever you want – but that ain’t the best way to go about it…”
You said this:
“We’ll have reached a point where, if not everyone is satisfied, at least the shouting will have quieted. ”
For that to happen, people need to accept that there are consequences for their actions. Smoke weed and party through a soft science degree, and you’ll never be VP of Engineering for a huge multi-national company. Have two kids out of wedlock before age 21, and you’ll never be wealthy.
Every choice one makes removes some possible outcomes.
For the life of me, I don’t understand why 1st world Western people have such a hard time with that concept. Our society spends an inordinate amount of time making excuses for people, rather than shrugging our collective shoulders and asking,”Well, what did they expect would happen?”
Felipe, I’ve spent a lot of time in some very poor places on the planet. A common thread there is the desire to gain more creature comforts. Only after a certain threshold is reached do people look around and ask,”What am I doing that is impacting the environment negatively?”
My comment about religious tolerance was not couched well. The chuckle I refer to is not a patronizing one, but the noise one makes right before the knife sinks between the 3rd and 4th rib of the “tolerant”.
For an experiment, go to any Western country with a state sanctioned religion – the UK is a great example. Head to a metropolis. Burn a King James bible and a Koran on random street corners, and see which one gets your ass kicked more.
You’ll get a great set of bruises illustrating the intersection of tolerance and the demographic pressures of immigration.
“For an experiment, go to any Western country with a state sanctioned religion – the UK is a great example. Head to a metropolis. Burn a King James bible and a Koran on random street corners, and see which one gets your ass kicked more. ”
And your point with regards to stress on the environment is?
You tried to suggest that either the burner or the bruiser was leaving more or less of an environmental footprint in their wake. If they are living a normal life in the UK they are leaving behind too much of a footprint. An entire family of 50 in many regions of the world leave behind less of a footprint than just 1 Britisher. I stand behind the view that the less children born in consumerist corporate cultures, the better for the environment. For one to be worried about population decline at this point in time is ridiculous if not straight up wrong.
Felipe, you miss my point.
Here it is:
The people who are in decline are the ones worrying about the environment.
The people who are breeding like crazy want to achieve the lifestyles possible in what you term “consumerist corporatist cultures”. Those folks don’t give a shit about the environment, except where they can leverage it to gain resources from those who do.
Felipe = Plain Jane.
@J
If I said that I read one sci-fi book and that means I read them all I’m sure many people will consider this a very judgemental way of seeing an entire genre. I know that Romance is acceptable target but still not liking a genre doesn’t make it bad, YMMV.
Actually, I have read a romance and thought it was very well done. So it’s possible to not write tripe (though I have no idea what you mean after the “but”).
Didn’t we had this discussion before and I explained to you that love stories and romance are different? Also tripe usually means “things that women love but men hate” which is not a definition born out of science but prejudice, YMMV.
Though romances NEVER have plot holes? lol That’s gotta be one of the silliest things I’ve read
I said don’t really have plot holes and I meant something like a 21 century character with no e-mail account example. In this case is not a plot hole because is not a hole left by the writer out of forgetting but a device to encase her “special snowflake quality” and a deux ex machina. Plot holes at least as far as I know are things the author don’t do purposely to achieve a story goal, YMMV.
I remember that. Total STEM boys’ dream: having your crazy theory proven right, your eccentric area of study leading to alien discoveries, earning the repect of your male peers that you can be “one of the guys”, and having the cute girl fall in love with you over long lost ruins. What’s not to like!
OMG that means that Daniel is a wish fulfillment Mary Sue? Oh well I still love him.
Wouldn’t his character have been slightly more believable if he were older?
I though this too, unless he is like Mark Zuckenberg but Susan is right most women don’t want men a lot older than they are just slightly older or in the case of Edward that looks younger even if he is not. Many older men won’t want to admit that their hot young thing is seeing money or status but probably fantasizing about the hot gardener. Heck I was re-reading the original Psyche and Eros legend that other day and one of the complains of Psyche sisters is that her husband is “as old as my father” and this was an over 1000 years old text.
Are these not just as much fantasy as the women’s?
Life will be better if we all accept that both men and women dream with a person with all the perks of the opposite gender and none of the drawbacks and learn to accept how this will never happen.
Has it now got to be illegal to have a strong male lead?
Byron has an interesting theory about how male writers feeling that male fictional characters have many restrictions write the female as males hence all the kick ass power on TV for females is PC to allow them to do that but if is a male I’m sure there are many executives meddling to temper it unless is an specific thing like a period show ala Mad Men, YMMV.
@Ramble
Love Red he was indeed a very good dad. Reminds me of my own daddy.
My apologies to SBF if I’m casting aspersions erroneously
I was going to say the same thing so we can be wrong together although I think we are not the handle is a give away.
Dogsquat, who cares? Neither should be having kids right now. Neither. But of the two, just 1 of your Prius driving “going green” SWPLs leaves behind a footprint equal to 50 of my non SWPLs who don’t give a shit. So why lament the decline of SWPLs and their spoiled bratty offspring?
@Felipe
I understand this argument – many people feel the way you do. I’ve come down on the side of marriage and family as important societal institutions. I don’t believe a below-replacement birthrate will allow us to climb out of the environmental miasma, because we won’t have the $ to fund it.
I have a friend who is a combination of black, white and Native American. Her husband is Nordic white, and as a result he kids are very light-skinned. My friend is frequently mistaken for their nanny. I find that both funny and sad.
Happens all the time in my country, only once though. Dominican women had developed a level of yelling and bitching that can render the receptor in need of a Tetanus vaccine shot.
” I’ve come down on the side of marriage and family as important societal institutions.”
They were but I think childless couples or couples who adopt the already hundreds of thousands of needy orphans out there are the wave of the future. Morally is it right to have kids when there already are too many children who need parents available?
“I don’t believe a below-replacement birthrate will allow us to climb out of the environmental miasma, because we won’t have the $ to fund it.”
We won’t need money to fix it if the population becomes extremely small.
@Dogsquat
I think it’s because we have the luxury of being spoiled and complacent. Personal responsibility doesn’t mean as much when none of our decisions are life and death (obvs not true for the military, and there I know the concept of consequences is well understood). Or if they are it’s a slow death by obesity, with the attendant health care costs on Uncle Sam.
I think this also explains the loss of a lot of the virtues previous generations prized, like honor, duty, courage. Again, the military is the last outpost of these qualities. We’re fat and lazy and our civilization is declining. We’re like the third generation after the immigrant great grandfather makes a fortune. Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves. No fire in the belly. Just my .02 rant.
@SW
“We’re fat and lazy and our civilization is declining.”
Too simplistic, but there’s a kernal of truth here. Methinks there are 2 or more “Americas”, coexisting in the same sphere with very different socioeconomic outcomes.
If I said that I read one sci-fi book and that means I read them all I’m sure many people will consider this a very judgemental way of seeing an entire genre. I know that Romance is acceptable target but still not liking a genre doesn’t make it bad, YMMV
To a certain extent, you’d be right…and I say that as a science fiction fan. I did mean my remark somewhat lightheartedly and teasingly though.
@Megaman
How do you see it playing out? Dogsquat is right, the higher SES groups are not reproducing. But they are the people with skills in the economy.
Happens all the time in my country, only once though. Dominican women had developed a level of yelling and bitching that can render the receptor in need of a Tetanus vaccine shot.
Fortunately or unfortunately, my friend is a really gracious person–as is her whole family. She and her brothers were raised with the idea that they’d be faced with a lot of nonsense throughout their lives, and they are all very good at disarming it in a kindly way. Nonetheless, if I were her and that sort of stuff happened to me in front of my kids, I’d be pretty pissed off.
@SW
“How do you see it playing out?”
As always, I’m optimistic despite the marriage rate decline (multi-causal and overstated for effect). Rather OT, but I dropped you an email : )
To a certain extent, you’d be right…and I say that as a science fiction fan. I did mean my remark somewhat lightheartedly and teasingly though.
In writing there are people that say that all literary works could be reduced to around 16 plots, I had a friend that say that there only 3 plots: Life, love, death. I still think that even if we do have a basic structure for every genre, the POV makes it unique enough to read more than once.
Oh ok…had I mentioned that I really don’t get sarcasm? So is good if you add a smiley or something or I will take it as face value.
Fortunately or unfortunately, my friend is a really gracious person–as is her whole family. She and her brothers were raised with the idea that they’d be faced with a lot of nonsense throughout their lives, and they are all very good at disarming it in a kindly way. Nonetheless, if I were her and that sort of stuff happened to me in front of my kids, I’d be pretty pissed off.
That is a nice attitude. Women get pissed of in my country because is an idiotic assumption most people is mixed and women tend to marry lighter men so is not uncommon for them to have light skinned kids is like “duh had you been living under a rock from the last 500 years or something like it?” So there is a bit of that too on the getting pissed off.
@Herb
Could you cool it with the d/s honorifics and titles among the vanilla public please? Those really are for use in a d/s context than in everyday speech to refer to your partner. You are making us male subs look bad.
Uh…… no, it was a romance. Unless you’re going to start making up definitions on the fly.
Uh… no it is has a dictionary definition.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tripe
Slang . something, especially speech or writing, that is false or worthless; rubbish.
Plenty of “male” movies are tripe as well. (Yes, I’m looking at you, Transformers.)
Again, noooo (I thought you said you studied literature or something). A point left out by a writer unintentionally is still a plot hole. (again, explained this in my linked articles)
Someone should refresh their trope knowledge: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole
-Characters suddenly having knowledge that was never passed to them, or vice versa; characters not knowing something they knew last week, or something that anyone in their position must know.
-Characters acting completely out of character.
-An event does not logically follow from what has gone before.
-Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the viewers.
-An event occurring that, given other details present in the work, is not possible.
Example of the last there: A student attending a university who “doesn’t have email”. Most American universities (at least, I haven’t found one that doesn’t, yet) nowadays PROVIDE their students with an auto generated email when they enroll. Now the character may not CHECK their email, but to say she’s a student and doesn’t have one is a plot hole. (though one of the more minor ones)
@J
It was a trick question as I can introduce you to one set of couples who do #1 as part of their D/s connection and people who do #2. I’ve done both in my current relationship although it’s more #1.
For couples working on an active D/s relationship it is as much about mindset as anything. In the end it is still two people…or as the Master in the Northwest M/s Couple 2011 likes to put it:
Which is really what is so wrong in the D/s relationship that he supposedly pursues in the book.
One slight revision to me disagreeing with the inhibition theory. Driving home this morning I was thinking about something she said in bed this morning about how I make the funniest noises. I realized there is a freedom from inhibition in being the submissive partner for a lot of us, but it’s not about not being able to able sex even though it’s dirty or something like that.
What you do gain is the freedom to act with abandon and total lack of self consciousness. Have you found yourself holding back, especially early, in how your react or make noise or anything out of embarrassment or self-consciousness? A sub in an ongoing D/s relationship doesn’t have the option of holding back, you’re expect to let yourself go whenever your Dominant is playing with you (unless you’ve been directed otherwise). So, in addition to what I listed above, there is this huge freedom to not only feel but express that feeling which creates a wonderful positive feedback loop for both of you much of the time.
In general I actually feel more free to be myself in this relationship than my vanilla ones. My only responsibilities are to be Hers and to obey in those areas we have agreed that are Hers to control. The flip side is She has the authority to correct and guide when that isn’t pleasing to her. That may seem problematic but return to the pleasing drive above.
This had gotten kind of long and rambling but I did want to let you know you got me thinking and to add what I’d realized.
@Ramble
+1
I’ll take factory over aftermarket any day.
Beyond women who get them due to injury (generally loss of a breast after cancer, but I’m sure there are others) I really don’t see why women think they’re a good idea. Plus, as I understand it they tend to kill nipple sensitivity.
I’d much rather play with sensitives AA that feel like a real person than plastic fantastic DD that don’t move or send shivers up her spine any day.
@Thoth
Sorry, habit
On a more serious note, if you look at my postings when I talk about my gf that’s how I refer to her (sometimes it Gf or GF but that’s grammar fetish about initializing abbreviations). General relationship stuff isn’t in the D/s frame.
However, if I’m discussing us in a D/s context I think honorifics are appropriate even if I’m explaining to a vanilla crowd. If I’m trying to convey an idea little bits of context help get it across. Of course, YMMV
@Thoth
It’s also nice to know I’m not the only one here.
@Herb
No problem
__________________
Also, I just wanted to say that a d/s (without any s&m) power dynamic exists (and is often desired) in vanilla relationships anyway. And from the clamour for more male domination from women, it seems like it is being actively sought. Considering that, there doesn’t seem to be much difference between a d/s couple and a vanilla one. There are plenty of kinky people who don’t care about the s&m part at all.
Factor in a little bit of hair pulling, choking, bottom and breast slapping, it technically becomes a bdsm relationship anyway.
It’s only a hop and a skip from having your bottom slapped to a proper spanking.
So the success of the tawdry book (there’s probably better stuff on literotica for free) isn’t really surprising. I guess it looks more obvious to me since I am looking from the other side of the fence.
Maybe that’s why I don’t need romance novels. My husband is already my ideal, more ideal than any fictional character. He’s masculine, dominant, confident, muscular, tall, handsome, loving, tender, kind, brilliant, spiritual, decisive, analytical, witty, capable, gallant, wise, honest, moral, positive, light, everything I ever wanted in a man, and traits I didn’t even know were possible to all exist in one person.
He would probably be too “boring” for a fictional novel anyway, since he doesn’t have enough “dark” traits or typical flaws.
I mean sure he leaves the toilet seat up and the socks on the floor, but I’m happy to serve him and do the cleaning. We have a rather vanilla relationship, and it just feels natural for him to be the dominant one and for me to be the submissive one. People outside the relationship, friends and family, also see us as a happy and harmonious couple.
Hope – “Maybe that’s why I don’t need romance novels. My husband is already my ideal, more ideal than any fictional character.”
Sometimes I just want to stand up and shout YES when I read your posts.
This is exactly how I would like my SO to feel about me. I know she loves me a great deal, but that isn’t the same. I don’t know if she feels like you do or not, and I don’t want to ask because I may not like the answer. I will say that I don’t get the feeling from her that there is anything major about me she would like to change, other than stuff like not leaving my socks on the floor next to my side of the bed, LOL.
I’m sure she may feel that realistically I am the closest to ideal she will ever get, and perhaps that should be enough. But that triggers my “settling” alarms. As if the only reason I’m ideal is because she cannot realistically get her real ideal. And that ties into why I get so freaked out by fantasy and things like romance novels, because it triggers anxiety in me that the reason she might fantasize/read emo-porn is exactly because I am not her ideal. It’s a vicious loop.
@Thoth
Hey you fence sitters, get off of my lawn
Truth…I think the lesson from the past 30 years is the egalitarian ideal doesn’t work for a marriage. I’ll leave it to Game theorists (sex kind, not math…I do some of the later but not the former), feminists, and evangelicals to fight out the exact nature. However, the truth is this: no effective project is run by committee. In the end someone has to decide.
This is true even if the project is a relationship and the committee is only of two. Having who decides and up front and open choice is a good idea.
I think the big difference between “formal” D/s couples and vanilla couples will be that who can be more fluid or area by area instead of a in charge partner across the board. However, being up front and doing a change of command is still useful.
One thing I really think vanilla couples could learn from is ritual. In fact, a recent class I attended the presenters pointed out how many vanilla couples have rituals they’ve developed over time. The presenters then argued if vanilla couples were deliberate about them in both making them and adding them to life it would be helpful. I wonder if perhaps much of the boredom and disconnect could be addressed that way.
Which leads me to the other thing I think vanilla couples could learn from people active in the lifestyle. When I went to an event in Dallas in early March I attended 7 classes. One was about self-understanding/understanding your partner. Three were about relationship skills. One was a mix of both of those. Two were about playing.
Notice, the ratio was 21% self-knowledge, 50% relationship skills and only 29% “sex”. Now, look at the cover of popular magazines and ratio those three things.
D/s people tend to do a lot of relationship, self-discovery, communication, and similar classes which I think gives them an edge in relationship success and fulfillment long term. Note, I’m not claiming we do any more than marginally better that the public as a whole. There are people who claim that and I think they’re full of it. To the extend that we do it has nothing to do with D/s per se.
What’s happening is everyone assumes that we all know how to have vanilla relationships because that’s the mainstream/normal kind. People going outside that realm will have a sense they need to learn and study to have success because they don’t “naturally” know how to have relationships.
Guess what, anymore we don’t know squat about having vanilla ones either. So, my suggestion is get your gf/bf/fiancée/SO and go to couples classes. If you can’t find them, start them. If you can’t find teachers find some old guy who married his sweetheart in 1952 and is celebrating his 60th wedding anniversary and get him to teach it. Then get his wife. Then get the couple they’re best friends with. Find that couple who are that “we were going to divorce but stuck it out and five years later we’re happy and fulfilled” and have them teach the one after that.
I’ve seen the real benefit of being deliberate about your relationships and even though the gf and I have problems (big one, she’s poly and…well, I haven’t been and not sure I will be) but the fact we’re in an environment that puts a lot more effort into encouraging deliberate work on and in relationships has been a huge help.
Looking at what Susan’s doing she’s encouraging self-discovery and being deliberate to women. Some Game people are doing the same (some aren’t) for guys. If anyone wants to take one thing from all my ramblings please take that. Take the time to learn who you are and what you want (guys, do it before learning Game…if you learn Game but don’t know what you want, you won’t attract the women you need with it except by luck). The take the time to actually work on the skills to be a partner, both alone and with your SO.
Everything worth having takes work. A loving, caring, fulfilling relationship is no different.
Ted D, it’s a vicious cycle. The more you think you might not be “good enough” the more this thought infuses your actions and reactions. I used to be like that, but my husband helped me snap out of it. There are also times when he gets that way, and I help him get out of the funk, too.
I don’t really know enough about your SO, but you mentioned she’s an NF. Basically NF’s don’t settle, because if we settle we wither like plants without water. There’s a reason why the NF type is often called “idealists.” We love with the passion of a million suns (to borrow Anacaona’s expression; she’s also NF). So I wouldn’t worry too much about it.
Uh…… no, it was a romance. Unless you’re going to start making up definitions on the fly.
Is not on the fly do you have any writing manuals or books or teachers that you can discuss this with so you can corroborate?
Plenty of “male” movies are tripe as well. (Yes, I’m looking at you, Transformers.)
We are talking about books. Do you have any example of a book series loved by males that can be considered tripe?
Again, noooo (I thought you said you studied literature or something). A point left out by a writer unintentionally is still a plot hole. (again, explained this in my linked articles)
Someone should refresh their trope knowledge: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole
-Characters suddenly having knowledge that was never passed to them, or vice versa; characters not knowing something they knew last week, or something that anyone in their position must know.
-Characters acting completely out of character.
-An event does not logically follow from what has gone before.
-Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the viewers.
-An event occurring that, given other details present in the work, is not possible.
I haven’t consulted TVtropes on over a year I don’t trust it anymore as a good source of tools for writing, it has become too much of a fansite for me to consider it “scientific”
I do trust wikipedia slightly more because there is money to be made (money doesn’t lie) so they are less likely to pander to one group and they are aiming to have scientific acceptance so they won’t get take over by bias…much.
Here is the definition per wiki:
A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story’s plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance occurrences, a plot hole is one that is essential to the story’s outcome. Full definition here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole
Example of the last there: A student attending a university who “doesn’t have email”. Most American universities (at least, I haven’t found one that doesn’t, yet) nowadays PROVIDE their students with an auto generated email when they enroll. Now the character may not CHECK their email, but to say she’s a student and doesn’t have one is a plot hole. (though one of the more minor ones)
Per the definition above this “plot hole” is essential to the story working “How do I explain my leading lady suddenly leaving for a long period of time without anyone noticing?” so is not a plot hole she dissapearing is essential to the story, is just play lazy writing, YMMV.
@Hope
When you were single did you ever needed romance genre or even liked it?
Some notes:
I don’t think that there is a correlation between women being more socially dominant and wanting to be submissive more. I’m extremely *not* socially dominant, and I’ve always had rather submissive fantasies. Even from the age of ten, when sexual thoughts were kicking in, I fantasized about having sex for the first time with a slightly older, dominant, powerful man. I hadn’t read or watched anything to influence me to have these fantasies; they’re just what naturally turn me on. And interestingly, this man is never a real person, just more of an… entity. His physical manifestation doesn’t matter so much as the emotion and passion going into this relationship.
I think there are two different things going on here- relationship submission and sexual submission.
Sexual submissiveness- I don’t want pain (and Anastasia Steele doesn’t either). I do want to feel wanted and ravaged, though, and that might include being a little rough. I think part of the sexual fantasy is being *so* hot and *so* desirable that the man just can’t help himself. So this is also where my fantasy differs from 50 Shades of Grey, because I don’t fantasize about your standard good-looking guy, but more my particular ethnic ‘type’ that I’m attracted to and would actually date (and have dated) in real life, and who would actually think I’m really hot (in a demure, innocent kind of way.. I’m making myself puke a little writing this, tbh) and not just a plain jane.
I’ve been trying to figure out my attraction/arousal triggers and I’ve realized I like things that just feel ‘wrong.’ Of course this is all coming from the mouth of a still-virgin but make of it what you will. I get turned on by being checked out, even by men I’m not attracted to, even if it makes me uncomfortable it’s still arousing. I guess I have an exhibitionist streak? And I want to be objectified a little bit. I have fantasies of being restrained or ordered around or thrown around a little bit (which show the man’s strength) (no spanking/whipping/choking though, but a lot of women like that too). I want to feel like a man ‘owns’ me sexually. That I’m completely his, whenever he wants. But I also have to feel safe and comfortable and feel an emotional bond and that he’s worth me making such a big sexual and emotional investment, and this SMP’s cads don’t offer any of that. Which brings me to…
Relationship submissiveness. I’ve posted before about how I got turned off because a guy didn’t want to decide where to go on the first date. He also waffled about even calling it a date. If you’re interested in a girl sexually or romantically, that’s… fine. That’s actually just completely fine. I get the feeling that some men think they’re supposed to hide their sexual attraction or like for women? That it’s wrong somehow? *That’s* what they think ‘treating a women with respect’ means? It baffles me. But stuff like having my clothing, diet, exercise controlled like in 50 Shades of Grey, I wouldn’t like, but I do want real, honest input. Including criticism. I have so much more respect for men who are honest and decisive, even if it’s hard to hear and accept, than for men who are hesitant to make a clear statement about anything. It’s the MMSL ‘captain/first officer’ model I guess.
As for the ‘breaking the shell’ part- I hate to admit it, but my fantasy that I’ve had for many years actually follows the emotional arc of 50 shades of grey pretty closely. Not that he would be mean or an asshole, though, just more of a ‘stoic’ character who decides that I’m the special snowflake he wants to commit to. The fantasy story I had built up in my head even includes the breaking of boundaries and split-up part. This probably sounds really bizarre to men (and even other female commenters here). Although after actually getting out there and dating men, I realized that a lot of emotionally stunted douchebag nerds are not worth it, the outgoing athletic player types are also not worth it, and now I just want a normal well-adjusted guy I don’t want to make a ‘project’ out of, although I do want there to be a special emotional bond where he trusts me completely.
Note: no where did I use the terms ‘alpha’ and ‘beta.’ I think lots of people are using those terms to mean ‘attractive’ and ‘not attractive.’ But as you can see, my fantasy involves a combination of some hypergamy, submission, and comfort traits like emotional closeness and feeling safe and loved. But at the same time the man is a man who isn’t afraid to be masculine.
And a general comment- I thought that men wanted women to be more feminine and submissive. To not dominate conversations or try to control their lives. But finding out that that actually matches up with lots of women’s fantasies is off-putting and disgusting for some reason? I just don’t get it. We never demonize men for wanting to have sex with a variety of hot young women, but for some reason female fantasies always get demonized on this blog.
Anacaona, I read a few romance novels when I was a young teenager. In my 20s I usually read fantasy / science fiction and stories that involve supernatural phenomena. But yeah I enjoyed the romantic stories when I was younger and single. I love the Dune series, Lord of the Rings trilogy, King Arthur legends, Neuromancer and other cyberpunk / computer stories, anime/manga fantasy stories, in particular Ayashi no Ceres, etc.
Usually the romance in the stories I like are sidestories, I guess, with the exception of some manga. In manga the male romantic interest is usually less “alpha” and more loving, kind, and good at heart, and the girl doesn’t need to win him over from the dark side, but they fight together against the darkness. I read it when I was younger, but now I don’t because most of the time they involve high school students, and I’m just too old to care about high school drama.
purplesneakers, I agree with most of your post.
As for why female fantasies seemingly get demonized by the guys, there’s a simple and succint explanation: male competitive instinct. Men don’t want to hear about other guys XYZ. When they hear it, they want to size him up and either kick his behind or they have to concede defeat, neither of which invokes good feelings. So they don’t like it when females talk this way about fictional men either. My husband admits he’s quite competitive.
Ps: “We never demonize men for wanting to have sex with a variety of hot young women, but for some reason female fantasies always get demonized on this blog.”
This blog is an escape from real life, where it is the exactly opposite. Men’s fantasies cannot be mentioned in company and women’s fantasies are free fir loan in the public library.
@Herb
“Hey you fence sitters, get off of my lawn”
A lot of f/m couples are among those.
I am good enough to crash into your living room, forget about stepping off the lawn. I take pride in my depravity. It’s only sanity that holds me back. :p
“This is true even if the project is a relationship and the committee is only of two. Having who decides and up front and open choice is a good idea.”
True. And it would reduce some of those tiresome passive-aggressive shit tests about whether the guy is really decisive or not. I once went to a restaurant with some friends and colleagues, there was one woman who I assume was trying to show interest (assumed because she sent me a valentine’s text and a birthday card a few days later with a pierced heart and my name in it, but she never outright asked me out). Wasn’t my type (obviously).
I didn’t realize it at the time, but she was talking to me and as soon as I told the other guy to choose what to order for me (since he was paying and I wanted to give him the chance to keep his expenses low), her enthusiasm in our chat disappeared. I didn’t really think of it much then, but after reading all this game stuff, I thought I understood what happened there better.
“One thing I really think vanilla couples could learn from is ritual. In fact, a recent class I attended the presenters pointed out how many vanilla couples have rituals they’ve developed over time. The presenters then argued if vanilla couples were deliberate about them in both making them and adding them to life it would be helpful.”
I think this is a very important point. There are Indian couples where the wife doesn’t ever call her husband by name. They don’t use titles, but some kind of more respectful pronouns or something. The divorce rate among Indian couples is quite low..
All that stuff about waiting with a glass of wine for him at the end of the day etc. too. I’m not saying it should be enforced, but if someone wanted to be in a proper submissive state of mind, that kind of stuff could help.
“D/s people tend to do a lot of relationship, self-discovery, communication, and similar classes which I think gives them an edge in relationship success and fulfillment long term.”
Yeah, in my opinion those are “good things” for a relationship. Clear communication and knowing who you are and what you want from a relationship. But vanilla people seem to think clear communication “kills the romance” or something like that. Mind reading seems to be a highly sought-after attribute in vanilla mates. Prime example being the (intentionally) token resistance to sex after inviting a guy into the bedroom.
We do that too, but we replace the “no means no” with “safeword means no”. So you can continue to shout “no! enough!” but we know those protests don’t mean that the sexytime should stop.
“I’ve seen the real benefit of being deliberate about your relationships and even though the gf and I have problems (big one, she’s poly and…well, I haven’t been and not sure I will be) …”
Your life, your decisions and all that, but I don’t see this ending well. IMO, you could find someone more compatible. At the very least, I’d suggest that you don’t “fall for” her. I don’t see much downside to maintaining a casual play relationship, but to emotionally invest in her as your domme doesn’t seem wise at all to me.
Having said that, of course, you are free to disregard whatever I’ve said.
“Looking at what Susan’s doing she’s encouraging self-discovery and being deliberate to women. Some Game people are doing the same (some aren’t) for guys.”
I enjoyed this blog’s articles for that very reason. They clear up a lot of the myths and expose a lot of bad advice about (vanilla) relationships. And maybe it’s a bit of confirmation bias, but the ideas expounded upon here match a lot of my observations about relationships in the real world.
Heck knows I don’t need the advice. The last thing I need is a coy, submissive girl. :p But the exchange of knowledge and ideas are what interests me.
PS – “If you’re interested in a girl sexually or romantically, that’s… fine. That’s actually just completely fine. I get the feeling that some men think they’re supposed to hide their sexual attraction or like for women? That it’s wrong somehow? *That’s* what they think ‘treating a women with respect’ means?”
That is exactly what I used to believe. That if I showed real sexual interest in a woman too soon it was disrespectful. Imagine my surprise when I found out that women actually WANT that kind of attention, provided it is coming from a man they find attractive…
“And a general comment- I thought that men wanted women to be more feminine and submissive. To not dominate conversations or try to control their lives. But finding out that that actually matches up with lots of women’s fantasies is off-putting and disgusting for some reason? I just don’t get it. We never demonize men for wanting to have sex with a variety of hot young women, but for some reason female fantasies always get demonized on this blog.”
First of all, just because you and no women here at HUS haven’t demonized men’s sexual nature, doesn’t mean that many of us didn’t grow up hearing how bad and evil men were for being pigs. And I can assure you I’ve heard my fare share of “men are such pigs. All they want is sex with every young thing they see. DON’T be like that when you grow up!!!” So much so that when my daughter was just getting into her teens, I repeated that damn message to her to try and warn her away from getting used. Yep, I bought it hook, line, and sinker, and I am still trying to work it all out of my system. And frankly, I still get my panties in a bunch here when “sexual nature” is discussed, because I still feel very cheated and lied to about it.
And the reason *I* am so “off-put” by finding out woman fantasize about being dominated is because I was told most of my life that women DO NOT want a man to “be in charge”. That it is the height of chauvinistic thinking to believe that a woman wants or needs a man to “lead” her. And worse, had I simply ignored all that and been just a little more dominant in my marriage, I probably wouldn’t be divorced now. It’s fine, because I found a great woman to be with, but I am finding it hard to forgive and forget, especially since I can’t put the blame on anyone other than myself. I’m sure my mother and the other significant women in my life weren’t trying to intentionally mislead me, but that doesn’t change the fact that they did.
Lastly, Hope is right. There is a competition issue for me any time my SO mentions another guy in a way that shows she feels some kind of attraction for him. I immediately try to size him up compared to myself, and make sure I come out on top as best I can. The issue with fantasy men is: I can NEVER compete with them. By definition, they are perfect, and I can’t compete with perfection because no person IS perfect. I don’t like that she even has that ruler to measure me against for that matter.
Sure, you can say that women feel the same way about porn actresses, and I would completely understand it, which is partly why I stay away from watching it. But the difference is: at least porn actresses ARE people, (even if they have fake boobs LOL) and as such they are fair competition. Sure, she may be hot as hell, but she is probably a total air-head or a real bitch, and at least for me I would NEVER in a million years consider dating a “pro”. Good grief have you seen the size of the schlongs they get hammered with?! I wouldn’t feel completely inadequate before I even took my clothes off…
DOH! I would feel completely inadequate before I even took my clothes off…
Oh ok…had I mentioned that I really don’t get sarcasm? So is good if you add a smiley or something or I will take it as face value.
I don’t recall that, but I’ll add smileys when I’m being playful with you.
That is a nice attitude.
She was raised by some really amazing people. Both her parents were both racially mixed (mom–white and NA, dad–black and NA), and both were born and married during eras where interracial relationships were still taboo in the US. The parents, both human service professionals, really equipped my friend and her brothers to face ignorance graciously.
women tend to marry lighter men
Hhmmm. Sort of the opposite of the US. Roissy used to post a lot about what he believes is a “universal” reference for lighter women. (Be it black vs. white or Nordic vs. Mediterranean, the lighter woman always wins.) He references everything from Egyptian murals depicting dark-skinned Pharoahs with lighter queens to videos with dark-skinned rappers and lighter women. It’s interesting that a whole society exists that shows Roissy to be full of shit.
Maybe that’s why I don’t need romance novels. My husband is already my ideal, more ideal than any fictional character.
I don’t read romance because I’m too cynical to deal with ideals. I see my husband’s flaws, but to me it’s better to “settle” for pretty damn good than pine after something that doesn’t exist.
He would probably be too “boring” for a fictional novel anyway, since he doesn’t have enough “dark” traits or typical flaws.
And that’s another thing that gets me about the whole fantasy element of romance. The perfect guy with the one flaw the heroine can fix–as if people are “fixable” in real life.
Herb–Thanks for the interesting post. Too much to respond to off the cuff. Very paradoxical. I want to ponder before I respond.
J – “I see my husband’s flaws, but to me it’s better to “settle” for pretty damn good than pine after something that doesn’t exist.”
I know you used the word “settle” in quotes on purpose, but I still can’t help my knee-jerk reaction to it. Realistically its great that you know that your ideal doesn’t exist, and your husband is pretty damn close, but I wouldn’t want to know that’s how you feel if I was him. It just seems like looking at your mate from a scarcity model: “I can’t have my ideal, but this guy isn’t too bad…” I suppose it is what’s left of the romantic in me that just cringes at the thought.
It’s my inner Jesus Mahoney!
And the reason *I* am so “off-put” by finding out woman fantasize about being dominated is because I was told most of my life that women DO NOT want a man to “be in charge”.
Ted, work on the assumption that what many women want in fantasy is not necessarily what they want IRL or what they want sexually is not what they want otherwise. For example, I value my autonomy highly, but I love the scene in “Gone with the Wind” where Rhett carries Scarlett up the stairs. I can be pretty imposing in a work setting, but I’ll giggle like a schoolgirl if DH throws me onto the bed. It’s all about the context.
Ted – that makes a lot of sense. I don’t mean to diminish your experiences. They just don’t line up with mine, though… I feel like, with my generation, male sexuality was anything *but* demonized as we were growing up. Of course I’m also seeing this through my female lens so I’m probably missing a lot of things than if I were looking at it through a male lens. I would like to add, though, that girls are told that “it’s what’s on the inside that counts,” and, well, we all know how not true that is.
It’s not a scarcity model at all. I doubt that it’s humanly possible to “do better” than I did, but believe me, the fantasy men I’m capable of dreaming up are a lot better than anything God could make. (I say that ironically.)
Look at it this way. Real people have all those inconvenient wants and needs, but fantasy people fit the fantasizer to a tee. You can’t have that IRL. You have to “settle” for something that actually exists.
J – “I can be pretty imposing in a work setting, but I’ll giggle like a schoolgirl if DH throws me onto the bed. It’s all about the context.”
Very true. My issue I think is that I have difficulty understanding that “different context” bit, because I believed for many, many years that women didn’t have a “sex” context. Meaning, since women didn’t really want/need/think about sex, there were never instances where unacceptable behavior could me made “acceptable” because she was in the right frame of mind.
And if what you say is true, why fantasize about a man you don’t really want? To me that would be like fantasizing about a woman to have a relationship with that I couldn’t stand to be around. What exactly is the point of imagining the “better” if it isn’t really better? Do women like to fantasize about guys worse than their mate?
The few times I’ve ever fantasized about a woman I certainly wasn’t thinking to myself: “I would NEVER want this woman in real life. It would be horrible to be with what my imagination created.” Of course, my ‘fantasy’ women didn’t come with a personality, or anything resembling human expression other than unbridled sexuality. I’ve never once that I remember imagined a woman that I would want to be in a relationship with, in all cases it was simply a hot body to have sex with.
Good grief have you seen the size of the schlongs they get hammered with?! I wouldn’t feel completely inadequate before I even took my clothes off…
Ya know, you really can have too much of a good thing.
OTC:
“This blog is an escape from real life, where it is the exactly opposite. Men’s fantasies cannot be mentioned in company and women’s fantasies are free fir loan in the public library.”
——
So are all of those scantily clad women on TV, magazines, billboards and the ‘net fulfilling the female fantasy?
PS – “I don’t mean to diminish your experiences. They just don’t line up with mine, though… ”
No worries. I wasn’t implying you were trying to do anything like that. And I agree that perhaps things are much better for young guys now than they were when I was a young lad. I can surely see that my boys seem to have a much more rational view of female behavior at their young age than I did in my 20′s, so I have hope.
I certainly don’t post anything here intended to make women feel bad about their natural tendencies, but like I said, I’m still a bit “butt hurt” from spending years thinking that I was a bad person at my core simply because I had urges. When we start talking about female sexual nature, it starts tripping all kinds of reactionary thoughts in my head that I’m trying to get a grip on. Again, I’m finding it hard to completely let go, because I can’t put a finite ending on this. I have no one to blame, and no single root cause to document. I got into IT partly because I love being able to definitely resolve something, and it annoys me to no end that life doesn’t work that way as well.
If what you say is true, why fantasize about a man you don’t really want?
I think that there is often a difference between what people want and what’s really good for them. I have fantasies in which men fulfill certain emotional needs that I’ve probably carried around with me since my dysfunctional childhood. When I express those needs to my husband, he tells me to cut my losses and move on. And, of course, he’s right.
Alias,
Name one TV show that highlights a man with a healthy sexual appetite, speaks openly about what he desires, enjoys casual sex, and is not the object of snark, ridicule or derision.
Extra Special Double Points if he is shown passing over the mildly overweight 31 year old girl for the slim 24 year old girl.
J – “Look at it this way. Real people have all those inconvenient wants and needs, but fantasy people fit the fantasizer to a tee. You can’t have that IRL. You have to “settle” for something that actually exists”
Oh I totally agree with this, but my question is: knowing that, why bother fantasizing at all? Isn’t it kinda like being your own “cock tease”? I mean, spending time thinking about the perfect man you will never have certainly won’t make you appreciate what you DO have. Or maybe for some it does, but I wouldn’t want to take a test drive in a Lotus knowing I have to go back to driving my Chrysler again. It would just make me like my 300 less, and miss the Lotus I can’t have.
Don’t know if you can +1 a question, but… +1
Well, I’m having trouble understanding and accepting male sexuality too. And knowing that someday I’ll be old and saggy and wrinkled and my husband’s “primal urge” would be to fuck a 13 year old instead, because that’s just the way nature built it I guess, is kind of hard to deal with and accept.
Alias – “So are all of those scantily clad women on TV, magazines, billboards and the ‘net fulfilling the female fantasy?”
I think you will find that often those ads are NOT simply designed to target men. Women see those and want to BE like those women, and then go buy whatever product they were trying to sell. Hot women in advertising for men are usually just a gimmick to get the guy to look at the add. they know men can’t help looking, and once they have their attention they can try to rope them in. What they do to women though is very sinister. Show them beauty most can’t compete with, and then try to convince them Oil of Olay will make them look that good.
Brian Kinney fits this description to a tee on “Queer as folk”. He’s gay though.
He turns down his longtime best friend for the 17 year old “twink” Justin. He’s unapologetic about his desire, and is highly sexual. No one really ridicules him. Everyone pretty much envies him.
re: Hot Women in Advertising
Outside of Men’s Magazines and Beer Commercials, there is very little of it.
The majority of scantily clad women appear in travel magazines (mostly directed at women) and women’s magazines (how to firm up your but, treat yourself to this spa, etc.).
And, even with the Beer commercials, they are rarely in bikinis. In fact, it is usually something like Jeans and a T-Shirt with the T-shirt showing just a little belly.
He’s gay though.
And that show was never, EVER, directed towards a male audience. You will not see Spike or FX get the rights to show reruns of that show.
And, like you said, that was a gay man. Gay men, as always, or of primary (entertainment) interest to other gay men and women.
What about Audriana Lima in the latest Kia car commercials?
PS – “Well, I’m having trouble understanding and accepting male sexuality too. And knowing that someday I’ll be old and saggy and wrinkled and my husband’s “primal urge” would be to fuck a 13 year old instead, because that’s just the way nature built it I guess, is kind of hard to deal with and accept”
LOL touche. For the record, I’ve never that I know of wanted to fuck a 13yo, but I understand you were going for effect.
I can understand your concerns, and all I can say is that for me, I haven’t found myself “wanting” in that way. Several years after I married, my ex-wife put on some weight. She never got huge (like I did sadly) but she went up a couple sizes. It never diminished for one second how I felt about her sexually, which actually surprised me. She may not have looked as good, but she still “felt” as good, “smelled” as good, and “sounded” as good. I guess it might be part of how I bond, but the fact that I knew her so intimately just made her very sexually attractive to me. Now that I’m aware of it, I can see that the more time I spend with a woman intimately (read having sex) the more sexually attractive I find her, to an extent of course. I mean, once I’m batshit crazy for her, I can’t get much more attracted.
So perhaps there are other guys out there like that. JM seems to be in my camp on this issue based on how he describes feeling about his mate and other women when he has a mate. It’s much the same for me. I certainly notice other attractive women, but they slide out of my consciousness just as fast as they entered, never to trouble my thoughts again. I’ve been with my current SO about 2.5 years now, and I find it ironic that I don’t feel as strongly about female celebrities I used to think were hot. Literally I see pictures of them in line at the grocery and chuckle when I remember how hot I used to think they were.
I wonder if my view of them would switch back if I were to find myself single again…
Ted # 272
Yes, it’s true that the marketing is aimed at both genders.
Still, notice how you’re not bothered one bit by those advertisements as you are about the rom novels. Most women aren’t fantasizing being with those half-dressed women, but men are.
Oh I totally agree with this, but my question is: knowing that, why bother fantasizing at all?
IDK. Maybe a neurologist or psychiatrist would have an answer to that question.
What about Audriana Lima in the latest Kia car commercials?
That’s a good one. But, still, rare.
And, I did not say you can not find them in advertising. But, even there, it is not nearly as common as you think.
I live on the east coast and I have formed a habit of checking the billboards on 95 to see if there are any scantily clad women. The last time I saw one was over 5 years ago, and it was for a travel agency (again, the grand majority of advertising for travel is aimed at women).
Another male character I can think of that fits the description is Roger Sterling from “Mad Men”. That is the epitome of “silver fox”, if there ever was one.
J – “Maybe a neurologist or psychiatrist would have an answer to that question.”
Do you think that fantasizing is a biological need for some? Sort of like dreaming while awake?
Don’t get me wrong, I fantasize plenty, just not about other women. If I am having sexual fantasies, I use my SO and usually some of the experiences we’ve shared. But mostly, I fantasize about stuff like winning the lottery when the jackpot goes really high. However, I do that exactly because I am unhappy with the amount of money I have, so thinking in those terms won’t help me much with this particular issue. LOL
Perhaps for some it is the only way they know how to escape reality. I do my best not to even try that, because it’s often a disappointment when I have to come back, so to speak. Of course, I also use a similar method to avoid temptation. If I don’t ever see it, I can’t be tempted. I hope that my character and morals would keep me from doing something stupid, but I figure why put them to the test if I don’t have to?
Thanks for the input. I know you probably get frustrated and/or tired beating your head against my brick walls, but believe it or not I do read and comprehend what you and others here post. Just because I come back right away with a counter point, doesn’t mean I didn’t think you were right. I’m just a real stickler when it comes to WHY, and like any good 3 year old I’ll just keep right on asking.
Sassy,
Roger Sterling, was that meant to be an example of a man that pursues slim women over heavier women and is shown in a positive light?
@ Ramble
Yes, it was.
I’ve only watched about 3 seasons of the show, so I may not have the most accurate depiction of him.
That character is most definitely not portrayed in a positive light.
** SPOILER ALERT – STOP READING **
He divorced his wife and married a much younger woman. His own daughter would make comments about her age. He also great to kind of hate her. Either way, he got another man’s wife pregnant and then they (the producers) made damn sure that he come off as a weasel.
** SPOILER OVER – BEGIN READING **
Now, it is a god damn soap opera, so, these things will happen. But, his sexual life is not portrayed in a positive light.
He also great to kind of hate her.
He also grew to kind of hate her. And, he thinks she is an idiot.
@Susan said
” However, I do think that feminists have been largely successful in redefining American culture, even changing the way we raise and educate our children. We have feminized our males and masculinized our females, and we are seeing that play out now….
All movements have unintended consequences…”
Complete agreement. I am squarely in the “gender equity” camp. “Feminism” no longer makes sense to me. All of the original tenets still stand, but it’s devolved into something too academic. Movements start, evolve and then devolve. Traditional feminism is becoming more and more marginalized in practical life (which is entirely different than “media life”, which makes no sense in the real world).
@Dogsquat said
“That right there is going to be the sticking point… What is “equity”?
Everybody’s gonna have their own definition…”
So sad when people’s go-to reaction seems to be “how am I gonna get mine”. We should be bigger than that. We freakin’ LIVE (and, hopefully, love) the opposite sex. Men, you have daughters. Gender inequality, whichever sex it’s directed to, hurts EVERYONE. It’s that simple. As long as there is this inequality, the pendulum will continue to swing back and forth, never resting. To simply shrug your shoulders is not an answer. It’s apathy. Why are we breaking this down into “boys” vs. “girls”? A bit of sacrifice on everyone’s part would be better than trying to make sure that you “come out on top”. Seriously, we’re talking about our loved ones here. If you hate your wife or daughter, look yourself squarely in the face — you PICKED your sig other. YOU had/have the choice. Why are YOU picking wack-jobs? And obviously, this is the same advice for women that always complain about their husbands/sons.
I’ve never seen the show, but from your description, I don’t see any reason why his sexual life *should* be portrayed in a positive light. There’s nothing honorable about leaving a (presumably faithful, loving) wife for a younger woman and then getting another man’s wife pregnant anyway.
What about “Entourage”? It glorified the movie star’s [casual] sex life.
Of course, there are shows like “Sex and the city” and now “Girls” that make no sense. I think criticism of media aimed at a female audience is fair. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a lot of pandering to male sexuality though.
Light – “How important is smell in sexual attraction? Its one of the first things I notice but is it generally taken into account?”
I’m guessing this is another Plain Jane account, but I see this as a valid question (that is not flame bait) so I’ll answer.
To me, smell is pretty important. But that doesn’t mean perfume or soap (although I’d imagine something like daily use of a particular soap would effect smell in general) What I’m really talking about is how she smells herself. I imagine it is something akin to pheromones, although I’ve read that there is still much speculation about if humans have such, and if so to what extent they play a role in mate selection. For me, it is both comforting and arousing.
My SO works various shifts, and many mornings she is up and out of bed before my alarm goes off. It is a regular occurrence for me to wake up squeezing one of her pillows to my face. You see, it smells like her, and I imagine after she leaves I subconsciously realize it and seek her out for comfort.
I very much liked how my ex “smelled”, but I am at least equally attracted to my current SO’s smell as well. I honestly can’t remember my earlier LTR mates in that much detail.
I don’t see any reason why his sexual life *should* be portrayed in a positive light.
I am not saying it should. Sassy offered him up as a positive (sexual) male character.
I am saying that he is not portrayed in that light.
Purple, good for you.
In my entire life, Entourage is the only show that ever did this (though, even that barely ever touched on the idea of bypassing heavier girls and pursuing thinner ones).
But,
1.) The main character was one that basically had girls throwing themselves at him, and
2.) The non-main characters that would make comments about heavier girls (Johnny Drama and Turtle) were almost always shown to be, well, idiots, and
3.) The show is often reviled by right thinking people. Tina Fey (and her character Liz Lemon) has often singled the show out as being for idiots. Various web sites will say that it is the show for Douche bags, etc.
Even though the writing on the show was not that great, I grew to appreciate it simply for the reason that it did show a single man who enjoyed having casual (and committed) sex, and he was not (at least, within the how) ridiculed or chastised for it.
Idk, all those stupid “beer and boobs” college boy movies used to make me feel really uncomfortable.
And some of the guys in my high school used to loudly discuss their porn movies with each other as well, which also bothered me.
I’m over it now, but as an awkward insecure never-been-kissed teenager, it wasn’t nice.
omg. “293 Light Skinneded Ho from da Block April 11, 2012 at 4:27 pm ” is Plain Jane’s most offensive handle yet.
@ Felipe
The old overpopulation meme is dead as a doornail. When many countries have below-replacement fertility, they won’t even be able to fund their basic institutions, since there will be so many old people that need assistance of various kinds. You can forget about cleaning up the environment when the public treasury runs out and there aren’t enough young people to fund it — that’s why Europe, especially Greece, is in such dire financial straits. Fewer people does not necessarliy mean that costs will come under control; you need to continue to pay for everyone already alive. So, I agree with Susan — marriage and family are important to all societies.
Okay, enough off-topic stuff.
Regarding the portrayal of males in the media, apparently only gay males can be shown to have a healthy sex drive, state what they desire and follow through on it without ridicule. Heterosexual men who do this are indeed the butt of jokes; they are often admonished to treat women “respectfully” (read: non-sexually.)
@purplesneakers
That’s a great description – I think many women fantasize without a specific physical picture in their minds. The fantasy is about the emotional connection. I might have a very clear sense of a man’s desperation to kiss me, for example, without any visual imagery at all.
Both sexes get aroused by turning someone else on and making them feel desire, but I’ve read that women are particularly sensitive to this attraction cue. A man’s desire makes a woman feel powerful, and it significantly increases her own arousal.
Exactly. This is why we see so many tortured accounts by women, wondering this or that little sign meant, or if the guy they had sex with last weekend might want to see them again. They have the need for the emotional connection, but they subvert it for that momentary feeling of being “owned” by a man.
@SexyBearFriend:
I find it interesting that you are for gender equity, yet didn’t define what that means.
How would you pitch gender equity to someone like Amanda Marcotte, or Paul Elam?
@Susan
“And interestingly, this man is never a real person, just more of an… entity. His physical manifestation doesn’t matter so much as the emotion and passion going into this relationship.
That’s a great description – I think many women fantasize without a specific physical picture in their minds. The fantasy is about the emotional connection. I might have a very clear sense of a man’s desperation to kiss me, for example, without any visual imagery at all. ”
This is where I get lost.
If your fantasizing about another man, why not just go an actually do it? Theres literally nothing in the world to stop you.
I know if I was fantasizing about some fantasy women (I don’t) I wouldn’t spend more than 5 minutes before I was working to make it a reality.
@Hope
I’ll concur. I don’t like having to compete for something thats already mine. If thats the case I might as well go for something new and exciting and younger.
P.S
I like the dominant vs. submissive role. Not only can I handle it but I quite like it. Seems very complementary.
Its the fantasizing about another “entity” that gets me.
@J
I don’t know if you currently read him, but recently he’s had a couple of posts that had me scratching my head. One was a list of sexy pranks, including putting the car into neutral while she’s driving and unplugging the hairdryer when she’s doing her hair. Another was putting a “kick me” note on her back as she leaves the house. What, is he 8? Honestly, I thought it was parody, and still wonder if it was, but it seemed to be offered and taken seriously.
Recently he wrote a list of witty comebacks so weak they had me squirming with embarrassment. Example: What time is it? A good time. Where’s your car? Tijuana.
WOMP WOMP WOMP
I’m not much of a TV watcher, but how about James Bond? Or George Clooney in Up in the Air? If I cared to think this over for a while, I bet I could come up with at least 50 films where this is the case.
Well, I’m not currently in a relationship, so I’m not “fantasizing about another man.” I know I could go have sex with some random guy off the street, but that defeats the whole purpose of the fantasy, which is the build-up of attraction and closeness through the display of dominance and special snowflake commitment/emotional attachment. I try to look for the strength in men (not just physical, but that’s definitely a turn-on) that I date and encourage them to display those traits, as well as try to show that I’m trustworthy and they can bond to me emotionally. Both of these are hard for me for different reasons, and have required a lot of recalibration of personality and social habits, but I try this sincerely if I like a guy, he’s not a douchebag or self-pitying, and I feel an urge to drop my panties for him. I’m never comparing them disfavorably to fantasy or fiction.
I’m not going to touch the issue of your non-fantasizing about other women viz a viz your personal life.
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