Women want their romance heroes to be like coconuts: hard and tough on the outside, but soft and sweet on the inside. But the hero’s sweet interior can’t be available to just anyone. Only the heroine gets to crack him open. The hero is granted free reign to be a badass with everyone else, as long as he’s tender and attentive with the heroine.
Ogi Ogas, A Billion Wicked Thoughts
The 50 Shades of Grey phenomenon has captured the worldwide attention of readers, industry observers and media outlets. Its publication is a remarkable success story that touches on several of my personal interests:
- Female psychology and sexuality
- Politics and feminism
- Literature and stories
- Business and economics
In researching this post, I came across quotes from readers, and reports from writers, but no journalist who had both read the book and discussed its significance. Last week I read the first two books in the trilogy, and will review the first book here. Please be aware that this post is a spoiler. It’s not possible to discuss the extraordinary event that is 50 Shades while attempting to hide the story’s arc and ending. If you don’t want to learn what happens in the book, stop here.
EL James originally wrote the story as Twilight fan fiction, posting it for free on her favorite fanfic site. 50 Shades bears little resemblance to the Twilight series on the face of it, but there are some underlying common themes:
- An innocent, socially awkward heroine with pale skin and dark hair. (Note the author’s appearance.)
- A powerful, enigmatic, damaged male.
- Love at first sight.
- Two parties so different in their wants and needs that a lasting relationship appears impossible.
- True love conquers all.
The Synopsis
Anastasia (Ana) Steele is a 21 year old college senior who has never dated a boy, much less had sex. In fact, she confesses at one point that she has never masturbated or even touched herself. She states that she has never met a man before who made her “want to be kissed.” She is deeply introverted, described as ordinary in appearance, and spectacularly clumsy: “gawky and uncoordinated.” She works part-time at a hardware store, her primary extracurricular activity. She has never owned a computer, and doesn’t even have an email address. An English major, she frequently references Tess of the D’Urbervilles. Her father died when she was young, and her mother is on husband #4. The book begins with Ana filling in for a sick roommate who’s editor of the student newspaper. She travels three hours to Seattle to interview Christian Grey, one of the college’s benefactors.
Grey is a 27 year-old telecommunications magnate. We never learn how he made his fortune, but we do learn a lot about his traumatic childhood. Like TV serial killer Dexter, he was adopted at the age of four, after he was found alone with the dead body of his crack whore mother, who had been dead several days. His chest is covered with cigarette burn scars.
He happens to be gorgeous – Ana describes him as the epitome of male beauty, having “intense bright gray eyes that regard me shrewdly.” He has unruly, copper-colored curls, a straight nose, and square jaw. Clumsy Ms. Steele literally stumbles, then falls into his office, which for some strange reason causes his eyes to glow hot with desire. Their meeting is all raised eyebrows and sardonic grins (Christian), combined with awkward pauses, blurting, stuttering and blushing (Ana).
Soon after, Grey saves her life from a crazed bike messenger, but when she falls into his arms with relief he warns “You should steer clear of me. I am not the man for you,” and “I don’t do the girlfriend thing.” Nonetheless, a few days later he sends her a $14,000 first edition of Tess, then invites her to his Seattle apartment for dinner, where she plans to lose her virginity. Once there, he asks her to sign a non-disclosure agreement, leading her to ask, “Does this mean you’re going to make love to me tonight, Christian?”
“No, Anastasia, it doesn’t. Firstly, I don’t make love. I fuck…hard. Secondly, there’s a lot more paperwork to do, and thirdly, you don’t yet know what you’re in for. You could still run for the hills.”
He shows her his Playroom, equipped with chains, cuffs, ropes, floggers, canes and bizarre metal instruments of all kinds. He proposes a three month trial contract, during which he will dictate nearly every aspect of her life: what she eats, wears, and how she exercises. She will be his “sub” every weekend, bending to his will and obeying him in all things. She must agree to keep her eyes cast downward unless given permission to gaze upon him directly.
Grey got his own start with kinky sex as a sub at 15, when a friend of his mother’s seduced and dominated him, regularly “beating the shit out of him.” That monogamous relationship lasted for 10 years, and he never made a single friend during that time, even at college. When it ended, he became a dom and has had 15 women under contract prior to Ana.
“I’m fully aware this is a dark path I’m leading you down, Anastasia.”
Anastasia demands time to mull it over, a few weeks during which Christian has vanilla sex with her in his bed and breaks many other of his rules, including sleeping in the same bed, introducing her to his mother and the rest of his family, flying her in his helicopter, then his glider. The one thing he refuses her is permission to touch his scarred chest. He prefers that her hands be pinned down or tied to prevent it. He uses a silk gray necktie to accomplish this. Desperate to touch the man she quickly falls in love with, this “hard limit” causes her deep anguish.
She never does sign the contract, but she does have sex as his sub three times. (They have vanilla sex many more times.) Twice he spanks her with his bare hand, and the third time she allows him to hit her with a feathery flogger. She is sexually aroused during these activities, but makes clear she would prefer a more “normal” sexual relationship. She tells him that she is submissive only to please him, and expresses her doubts that they are compatible. Finally, unable to delay his desire to inflict real pain, he whips her bare bottom with a belt six times, an experience she finds excruciatingly painful. When it’s over, sobbing, she ends their relationship, declaring that neither one can give the other what they want and need.
End of Part One (first in a trilogy)
The second book focuses on Grey’s trying to win her back as a man cured of the desire to control and harm. At this point, the relationship is extremely romantic and gentle. Grey’s aggressive tendencies are limited to those who would try to steal his girl away from him. He begs Ana never to leave him, and offers her marriage and children. He learns to enjoy her touch. It is a truly miraculous exorcism of demons.
The Review
The writing is terrible. Really, embarrassingly bad. James is English, and the book was originally published by a small Australian virtual publishing firm. Vintage has acquired the rights and will republish the book in the U.S. this month – let’s hope their editors make significant improvements. Focus Entertainment purchased the movie rights for $5 million.
James relies heavily on trite gimmicks, using them so repetitively in the book that they became a profound annoyance. One is the insertion of the italicized “oh my” whenever Ana feels a surge of sexual attraction for Christian. By my count, this is inserted into the narrative 68 times. She also says “holy cow” a lot, 82 times by Maureen Dowd’s count.
Another is Christian’s constant remarking on Ana’s biting her bottom lip. She does this so frequently it’s surprising it isn’t bruised and bloodied, and whenever he notices this behavior in public Christian “growls” a command that she save it for later. (Grey is very fond of growling.)
The Phenomenon
50 Shades was published in June, 2011, and became #1 on the New York Times bestseller list last month. There’s been little distribution of the printed version; 90% of its sales have been for e-readers.
The original buyers were followers of EL James’ previous fan fiction, and the book became a word of mouth sensation almost immediately. Indeed, the publishing industry is reeling over the potential in the formula “fan fiction + erotica + digital delivery = big bucks.” It’s being hailed as the secret to revitalizing the industry.
Forbes reports that Harper Collins has founded a new division called Mischief just for these kinds of properties:
Surprised and pleased by the sudden interest in the romance sub-genre, publishers are scrambling to ride the wave, saying Fifty Shades will likely generate a fresh cycle of female-targeted erotica packaged for the mainstream reader.
…Where there’s money to be made, the industry will follow. HarperCollins UK last week announced the launch of Mischief, its new erotic romance e-book imprint. It will push titles like Red Grow the Roses, an “original and thrilling vampire erotica” novel, and Sisters in Sin, a “haunting and intensely arousing” tale of a woman’s travels in Italy. Mischief executives say the imprint has been in the works for a year and is not a direct response to James’ series, but admit they are thrilled with the lead-in it provides.
For a look at the popularity of the romance genre, consider these sales numbers for 2011:
- Romance: $1.37 billion
- Inspirational: $759 million
- Mystery: $682 million
- Sci Fi and Fantasy: $559 million
- Literary Fiction: $455 million
Who are the women buying 50 Shades? There’s a perception that the original demographic was largely a married, over 30 crowd, though the evidence is strictly anecdotal. The Christian Science Monitor interviewed one reader and blogger:
In Shari Von Holten’s neighborhood, it started with a buzz among friends on Facebook. Then Van Holten’s Long Island neighbors started asking each other about the book the street, discreetly, or during chance encounters at the market. “My friends were saying things like: ‘I just finished it, it’s the best,’” says Von Holten. Intrigued, she floated the title at her book club’s next meeting, and the women quickly agreed to read it for March.
Media outlets have snarkily dubbed it “mommy porn” as a result. An article in The New York Times suggests the book has massive crossover appeal:
We’re making a statement that this is bigger than one genre,” said Anne Messitte, the publisher of Vintage Anchor, who discovered the book when a colleague at Random House slipped her a copy. “The people who are reading this are not only people who read romance. It’s gone much broader than that.
…This book has been credited with something else: introducing women who usually read run-of-the-mill literary or commercial fiction to graphic, heavy-breathing erotica.
Many readers have expressed that they’re bringing their newfound sexual arousal to their own bedrooms:
In the cities and suburbs of New York, Denver and Minneapolis, the women who have devoured the books say they are feeling the happy effects at home.
“It’s relighting a fire under a lot of marriages,” said Lyss Stern, the founder of DivaMoms.com and one of the early fans of the series. “I think it makes you feel sexy again, reading the books.”
Julie Gerstenblatt agrees, describing her enthusiasm at HuffPo:
Here’s the fun (funny? strange? uncomfortable to admit?) part: When you put the book down, you will actually want to have sex with your husband. Like, a lot.
After 13 years of marriage, it’s a damned revelation.
“Matt’s exhausted,” my friend, Sarah, told me.
“Jim’s excited that there’s a sequel!” another friend said.
“It’s actually a trilogy,” Sarah said, slightly awe-struck. With over 900 pages of E. L. James on our bedside tables, we could all be having sex with our husbands… indefinitely.
“Jeff and I are going away this weekend – should I bring this book?” Amy asked.
“Yes!” We told her.
Yes, I tell you. Yes, and yes, and oh, baby, yes.
Reportedly, stores in NYC have seen a sharp increase in the sales of gray silk ties. Publicist Alison Brod told the New York Post that the novel is “the new Kabbalah for female bonding in this city.”
Not surprisingly, some men find the phenomenon unnerving. Fox News reports:
While women are applauding the book, some men are expressing concern over whether women should be insulted by a plot dominated by a man who tells a woman when to sleep, eat, work out and even how to groom herself. Television host Dr. Drew Pinsky recently called the book a “rape fantasy.”
Frank Santo at the New York Daily News read 50 Shades on his Kindle while commuting on the subway, and found it profoundly discomfiting.
I’M JUST READING A BOOK ABOUT SPORTS OVER HERE FOLKS, I’M JUST A GUY READING ABOUT SPORTS.
This experience, needless to say, was unpleasant. As is so often the case with sexual matters, this book left me feeling confused, bothered and seriously doubting whether or not I understood what was going on.
Ultimately, he rejected any notion of a romantic storyline.
Firstly, and I can’t believe anyone would argue otherwise, “50 Shades of Grey” is pornography, plain and simple. There could be no other use for it. The narrative is comprised of 9 or 10 lengthy yet well-paced sex scenes tied together with some mindless, almost purposefully banal filler about Anastasia Steele’s college life. I think I remember Christian Grey playing a piano in one scene. That happened right? I don’t know, I was extremely anxious and uncomfortable the whole time. But this is exactly why this book matters. It manages, miraculously, to be at once pornographic and deeply unappealing to men – it is a kind of pornography that attracts only women, and thus far it is selling off the charts.
Alecia Simmonds, writing in the Australian publication Daily Life, disagrees, seeing 50 Shades as traditional romance fiction:
This is not to suggest that the tedious prose or conceptual vapidity of E. L. James should be compared with Austen, Bronte, Smith or Rousseau. But romance has the potential to explore the relationship between power and intimacy, which, in relegating romantic fiction to the trivial, we seem to have collectively ignored.
Of course women are also reading erotic romance for the same reason as we scoured our parents’ bookshelves for The Joy of Sex when teenagers. It offers a pulse-quickening, delicious delight. There is an absence of good erotic writing in serious literature and a puritanical disdain for literary descriptions of sex. We applaud literature if it makes us weep or inspires indignation. Rarely do we give credit when a book leaves us breathless, coy and pleasurably twitching.
But she also claims the sub-dom theme is a new low:
More than anything, the book shows us how much mainstream porn – with all its hair-pulling, choking and fantasies of violence – has made BDSM seem terribly ordinary. What were once transgressive sexual practices have become standard mumsy desires.
I’m nor so sure. I recall reading Diana Gabaldon’s Outlander in the 90s, the first in a series of highly successful romance novels set in the 1700s. In it a woman’s husband beats her when she misbehaves, and the sexual tension is palpable. They are both aroused by it. This proved controversial and was ultimately justified by pointing out the novel was set in a time when wives were property. That didn’t prevent contemporary women from considering the book extremely sexy, however.
Rachel, a 39 year-old lawyer who spoke with ABC News, describes what I think resonates most for many women:
“I loved the book — all three,” said Rachel, who has been married to her husband since she was 19 and has a healthy sex life. “But this is pretty hard-core porn.”
“The first book is very, very graphic and harsh with a lot of S & M – and quite frankly, did not do it for me,” she said. “I would never try anything with pain.”
But, she got hooked on the romance that develops in the second book, when Steele tries to change Grey. “What I loved was that it was a great love story.”
The heart of the romance is the notion of submission and the way in which Steele accommodates Grey to “make him love her,” according to Rachel.
“She sees being submissive as a necessity to save him,” she said. “He was broken. That was more of the appeal. And the sex was a bonus.”
The Backlash
From the New York Times article:
The trilogy has its detractors. Commentators have shredded the books for their explicit violence and antiquated treatment of women, made especially clear in the character of Anastasia, an awkward naif who consents to being stalked, slapped and whipped with a leather riding crop.
“What I found fascinating is that there are all these supermotivated, smart, educated women saying this was like the greatest thing they’ve ever read,” said Meg Lazarus, a 38-year-old former lawyer in Scarsdale, whose friends and acquaintances have been buzzing about the book. “I don’t get it. There’s a lot of violence, and this guy is abhorrent sometimes.”
Other feminists have found the book true to the goals of sex positive feminism. From Fox News:
Jill Filipovic, a blogger with Feministe.com told Fox411.com that because the book depicts a consensual relationship (Steele does sign that contract), she is unconcerned.
(Note: This is incorrect, as Steele never does sign the contract. She does consent to being tied at the wrists and hit on three occasions, which is the mildest form of domination stipulated in the contract. But Grey makes nearly all of the concessions. He never performs any act without her permission, though he does several times ask Steele to trust him rather than disclose what he has in mind. The sex in the book barely ventures out of vanilla territory, and when it finally does, Ana ends the relationship.)
“Amy Robach for NBC News says that the novel answers the age old question of what women really want. Never mind being left breathless or captivated, says Robach, this book makes it clear that domination and submission are on the minds of most American women.”
“We had the women’s movement which really was about empowering women not to be submissive to men anymore. Now we’ve moved onto a new generation where women are more empowered than ever before, the glass ceiling has been broken and we have as much control as we want. And what are we longing for? A little bodice ripping,” answers author Laura Berman to NBC.
The always insightful James Taranto at the Wall St. Journal agrees:
Female and male pornography are very much two sides of the same coin. While the former tends to be literary and the latter visual, neither has much pretension of being high art (except when such pretensions are useful in First Amendment cases). More interestingly, both present a similar sexual fantasy world, in which women are submissive and men dominant–though because each sex is interested in its opposite, female porn emphasizes the male-dominance aspect of the fantasy and male porn the female-submission aspect.
Bennett, Dowd and Bruni all puzzle over the seeming contradiction between the success of feminism in “empowering” women and the cultural products of which the trio disapprove. It should be noted that neither dirty pictures nor dirty books (“romance novels,” as they’re euphemistically called) are anything new. But it may be that they have become more graphic, more popular or both. At the very least, it is clear that the sexual fantasies of men and women do not conform to the feminist ideal of relations between generic and equal “persons.”
Taranto, who happens to be the only mainstream journalist I’ve ever seen write about hypergamy, goes on to share the work of anthropologist Heather Remoff, who studied female mating preferences in the 70s. Interviewing 66 women about their combined 261 sexual partners, they cited 23 different traits correlated to male sexual success:
- good-looking (43%)
- intelligent (40%)
- good income potential (40%)
- control of social resources (37%)
- food provided (36%)
- control of material resources (36%)
- protective toward female (35%)
- male older (30%)
- male dominant toward female (28%)
- confident (26%)
- well-educated (23%)
- good build (23%)
- aggressive (22%)
- generous (22%)
- accurate focus (21%)
- chemistry (21%)
- eye contact (19%)
- baby fantasies (18%)
- outstanding talent (17%)
- high status (16%)
- tall (16%)
- good with children (15%)
- female’s parents approved (5%)
The attraction to most of these traits is a manifestation of female hypergamy–especially “good-looking,” which turns out to have quite a different meaning for women than for men: “Every woman responds to a man whose looks correspond to her particular stereotype of power,” Remoff observes in a passage she italicizes.
This effort to equalize the sexes has created a sexual disequilibrium. For a high-status or powerful woman, a higher-status or more powerful man is hard to find. Although that works out nicely for the highest-status men, it is much more difficult for the average man to make himself an attractive prospect for women. Result: a lot of lonely people of both sexes, and an eager market for pornography of both the visual and literary kinds.
Ogi Ogas, author of A Billion Wicked Thoughts, explains the dual nature of the female’s fantasies:
The majority of women have submission fantasies. From classic romance The Flame and The Flower to classic erotica The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty to Twilight BDSM fan fiction (SW: e.g., 50 Shades), submission themes are immensely popular in cross-cultural female erotica. The fact of the matter is that most heterosexual women are wired to find sexual submission arousing–and so are most female mammals.
For the vast majority of romance readers, the hero should be a strong, confident, swaggering alpha. “I think this is one of the problems we’re having in romance in general right now: our heroes have gotten a little too PC. We’re portraying men the way feminist ideals say they should be – respectful and consensus-building,” muses erotic romance author Angela Knight.
Women just don’t want a nice guy – they want an alpha who learns to be nice to her. Women are designed to look for clues that there is a sweet interior worth getting at. Kindness and understanding are most attractive with the tough shell of alpha-hood.
Men are aroused by being dominant and by submissive women, women are aroused by being submissive and by dominant men. In the bedroom, inequality beats equality. Negotiating sexual politics has always been difficult, but paradoxically the laudable and necessary victories of gender equality activism might make it even more challenging. We’re all figuring out how to live in the first society in human history where women have such power, independence, and clout. But just as democracy has no effect on our basic taste preferences for sugar and fat, democracy doesn’t affect our basic sexual preferences for domination and submission.
Fifty Shades of Grey is the first blockbuster novel to entirely bypass the behemoth publishing industry and the mainstream media. It exploded on the scene thanks to word of mouth among readers, aided by the discreet digital format. No feminists or feminist-leaning institutions had the opportunity to influence the content or its delivery. Despite the poor writing quality, 50 Shades delivers what contemporary women are starving and clamoring for. Anastasia Steele gets her coconut; hard and tough on the outside, soft and sweet on the inside. That’s the ultimate female fantasy.
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Roger Sterling’s heart really belongs to Joanie, (Christina Hendricks), the heaviest woman on the show (not counting Betty Draper in a fat suit).
Emily, on the whole Beer and Boobs movie thing…
Since the latest American Pie came out recently, I’ve been thinking about the first one. And really, it’s odd how American Pie supports a raunch culture. When you really examine it, the first American Pie is a story about boys that feel shame about their virginity, and eventually learn it just isn’t that big of a deal. The main character of the story only really has sex with one person in the entire thing.
And yet it glorifies raunch culture. Incredible.
I’m with Ted and JM on this one. Still need the porn, but that’s just because the imagination doesn’t work right. A hot SO with positive character traits is the ultimate aphrodisiac and nothing else even comes close. Hook ups by comparison are ridiculous. Honestly, I feel a little sorry that so many women are actually attracted to the Dark Triad, because for me it is an instant turn-off and automatic repulsion.
On the subject of coconuts:
I don’t care if a girl has had 10,000 past partners, as long as she has come to the conclusion that sex really is special and really should be saved for a relationship. And she applies that standard to ALL guys, not just 99% of the guys but the other 1% she would fuck on command.
If that’s really such a fantasy, then perhaps I will be staying single for a while.
Do you think that fantasizing is a biological need for some? Sort of like dreaming while awake?
That seems possible to me. It’s universal, so it could well be biological. I wonder if there are people who don’t fantasize at all and if they have normal brains.
No problem about the other thing…
@purple
“I’m not going to touch the issue of your non-fantasizing about other women viz a viz your personal life.”
My personal life is undergoing some changes.
SW–I read Roissy occasionally, but I did see the posts you were talking about. I agree that they were pretty juvenile. My teenage sons have come up slicker stuff than that. This can’t be Jim Wiedmann, can it? It’s the verbal equivalent of rubbing your penis on strrange women at the dance club as was being discussed upthread. It’s just gross.
Well let’s see here… Plugging book into amazon.
“Tags Customers Associate with This Product
fantasy(5)
fantasy romance(3)
romance(3)
romance fantasy(1)”
(note: only two tags left off as they were author related, and it’s fun leaving the book a mystery)
What about barnes & noble?
“This is a strong character-based fantasy, full of romantic tension and gritty storylines.”
Best I can find is one review:
“The term romantic fantasy has unfortunate connotations with Mills and Boon, with smouldering bare chested heroes leaning over equally smouldering but just slightly less bare chested heroines on the front cover.
Luckily for me, the romance takes a back seat to the fantasy in this book.”
Ah, I guess it is a rule that romance has to be crap.
I’m trying to think of male-loved book series that aren’t also enjoyed by women. Hmmm… let me check:
http://www.guysread.com/books/
Yeah, there can be plenty of sports books that are tripe. Garfield comics are listed – definitely some of the later works. Mad magazine under “classics that actually hold up”? Check that off. Good betting on the “boxers, wrestlers, ultimate fighters” section. Heck, let’s be honest that some of Stephen King’s stuff can be pretty bad. (things I’ve heard about “under the dome”…)
How about the Gor novels? Or Terry Goodkind? (he’s probably racked up as much of a hatedom as Twilight)
Let’s play a game. First we’ll list what wiki says. Then we’ll list what tropes said.
-unlikely behaviour or actions of characters
-Characters acting completely out of character.
-illogical or impossible events & statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline
-An event does not logically follow from what has gone before. & An event occurring that, given other details present in the work, is not possible.
-events happening for no apparent reason
-_____
Wow, wiki only disagrees on one point which Trope left off. That really made a difference.
And, again, doesn’t contradict my point that it doesn’t have to be intentional on the author’s part.
Wait, it is essential to the story or it isn’t? You just said “A and not-A” in the same sentence up there.
And I found a helpful site that pointed out not just plot holes, but contradictions and bad writing just in the first chapter. Let’s see… (quotes from book)
Let’s go to investopedia:
“A corporation is created (incorporated) by a group of shareholders who have ownership of the corporation, represented by their holding of common stock. Shareholders elect a board of directors (generally receiving one vote per share) who appoint and oversee management of the corporation.”
Nah, I guess being a rich, CEO isn’t essential to the plot. Being the only CEO in America that doesn’t have to answer to a board, one would figure he’d have more than a college newspaper trying to interview him. Let’s see here…
What does google maps say? Portland, Oregon, is SOUTH of Vancouver. Seattle and the I-5 are north—two hours and thirty-nine minutes away. Going to Portland and then turning around going back the way you came? That adds nearly a half hour to your drive time. Turns out she gets there 15 min before the interview, so I guess the detour was essential to the plot?
Well, I can’t put it any better than one of the sporkers:
Man, I’ve got to start writing all my stuff as romances, then I can get away with crappy writing! As a friend of mine once put it: at least guys don’t try to justify their porn as any kind of great art.
It’s interesting that a whole society exists that shows Roissy to be full of shit.
Heh Roissy might forget that “men display, women select” if the dark skinned women are raised to look for lighter men as a way for their kids to escape slavery and for themselves to achieve a better position (which was the reason countries colonized by Spaniards mixed really fast) then that is going to be the norm. Is true that there is a preference for light skin on women but if you have a man that find a hottie black lady that treats him like a king and a light lady that is demanding and bitchy, both being similar in attractiveness guess who wins?
at least porn actresses ARE people, (even if they have fake boobs LOL) and as such they are fair competition.
Mmm you are projecting many women will prefer their men to fantasize about mermaids (and there is mermaid porn BTW) because they know is never going to happen that fantasize about a real woman, since there is always the chance of them meeting and he leaving her for her or her closest look alike, I think women rather compete with a ghost that when a real treat, YMMV.
I know if I was fantasizing about some fantasy women (I don’t) I wouldn’t spend more than 5 minutes before I was working to make it a reality.
DING DING DING we have a winner!!! THIS IS THE PROBLEM.
Men as a general rule, don’t have thoughts they don’t plot to take into actions, well maybe except the creative type. Women are emotional beings that can fantasize for the sake of the emotions without ever thinking on making it real because why would you do that? It makes no emotional sense you are getting the emotions already goal achieved no need to take it further.
Fantasy for fantasy’s sake it seems that men can’t do that and thus when they imagine their woman having a different ideal on their imagination they think that in some part of their brain if that guy were to show up or something closer to him that their husband’s they will cheat and leave in a heartbeat. There is a minority of women that might, but my guess is that they are closer to men than to women, but most women can fantasize about having the perfect dress, something doable and never trying to find it or make it. They just enjoy the feelings of that part of their brains. I don’t expect you to get it but is just another gender difference, women’s goal is the feelings, men’s goals is the reality, YMMV.
Man, I’ve got to start writing all my stuff as romances, then I can get away with crappy writing! As a friend of mine once put it: at least guys don’t try to justify their porn as any kind of great art.
They don’t call it crap or tripe do they? Look if you think that the writer handwaving something so easy to disproof as a plot hole and not just her taking the easy route be my guest. But you know I find intellectually lazy and dishonest quote other people’s critiques of a work without reading it myself. And since I don’t plan to read 50 shades of Gray ever I don’t see the point on dissecting what you quoted. If you want to continue discussing other writing stuff related to the genre but not this particular work of fiction we can open a thread on a forum.
“I don’t care if a girl has had 10,000 past partners, as long as she has come to the conclusion that sex really is special and really should be saved for a relationship. And she applies that standard to ALL guys, not just 99% of the guys but the other 1% she would fuck on command.”
This is a contortion of all contortions. In her universe, she did it to 100% of the guys that she encountered especially being able to get her number to 10,000. Women don’t have sex with 100% of the guys. She has sex to whom she is attracted to.
And hint: She doesn’t save herself for the relationship when her relationship is based on sex.
“If that’s really such a fantasy, then perhaps I will be staying single for a while.”
You should stay be single.
Men’s sexuality and pop culture. Sitcoms are more forgiving of men’s sexuality.
How I meet your mother: Barney shameless womanizer.
Two and a Half Men: Shameless womanizer.
Friends: Joey shameless womanizer and you could add guests stars like Tom Seleck and Bruce Willies dating young hotties.
Those on the top of my head, were populars the male characters could switch to date the “good girls” after partying hard. I think you are confusing the “husband’s are chumps” trope with “all men are chumps” the single guys usually can get away with a lot of “questionable” behavior YMMV.
@Lokland
First, I wasn’t speaking of my current experience, more as a spokesperson for women in general. Second, there is no other man, not even in the fantasy – that’s the point. It’s a fantasy about a feeling. Third, women often do not wish to live out their fantasies. I can’t speak for men, but a woman might get super turned on by something that would repulse or frighten her in real life. Women fantasize because they can direct the action and call all the shots. They set the boundaries and limits.
Jonny, can you clarify your thoughts? I am not sure what you mean.
Is this going to make me an unqualified Lokland fan? A woman can hope…
@J
There have definitely been some Weidmann quality posts recently, so he is definitely on the scene. I think he’s still sharing the writing, but I don’t know why he isn’t exercising more quality control, frankly.
@Anacaona
Agreed, I think this is just one of those situations that we’re going to have to accept as the reality for the other sex.
I am praying that Jesus gets so much good loving this week that he is prepared to accept this.
@Susan
“Is this going to make me an unqualified Lokland fan? A woman can hope…”
?
Lost me.
@Lokland
I’d like you more if you made certain changes in your personal life. Just saying.
I’m not much of a TV watcher, but how about James Bond?
You know, I would give you James Bond, but, the James Bond of old and of new are not the same.
Now, when he sleeps with a girl, she gets killed because of it, or she is a cheating whore, or she is really damaged, or he wants to marry her, etc.
Actually, in some ways, he is a great example: he shows how these things have changed.
Or George Clooney in Up in the Air?
I never saw it, but simply doing a quick reading of the plot on Wikipedia, I seriously doubt his character (or the narrative) qualifies.
… the heaviest woman on the show …
Whom everyone on the show, and outside of it, go out of there way to tell you how unbelievably gorgeous she is. I mean, “Marilyn wishes she was a Joan”.
For the people that think she is beautiful, great, but give me a fucking break!
@Susan
Then you can officially like me more.
@Ana, Susan
“They just enjoy the feelings of that part of their brains. I don’t expect you to get it but is just another gender difference, women’s goal is the feelings, men’s goals is the reality, YMMV.”
No. I don’t get it.
Though on a sidenote I just had a very interesting walk home.
There were three does on the side of the path I could have reached out and pet them.
Calming experience.
I also had the urge to chuck my phone at them in an attempt for meat.
And I saw the firswt football practice of the year (or maybe tryouts, beats the hell outta me). Brings back tons of memories.
Barney, I am least familiar with because I think the writing on the show is pretty bland. However, I have seen 2 or 3 episode and it seems like his “hi-jinks” are constantly causing eye rolls from the rest of them.
Charlie (from Two and Half Men) – He is constantly, CONSTANTLY, drawing criticism for his womanizing and “empty” relationships.
Joey was rarely shown actually having casual sex, but he was shown helping to care for another man’s child while falling in love with the baby’s mother.
But, Friends is a great example for the Slim, Slightly Overweight, Obese “trichotomy”. Chandler, according to Monica, turned her down when they were young and she was still quite Fat. And, she found out that he turned down another fat girl as well. For this, he was ashamed.
… from here he tells her that he does not see her as thin and sexy, but as the woman he loves (awww). God forbid he actually preferred her slim and would not be attracted to her if she gained weight (which, he wasn’t…and rightfully ashamed of)
Tom Seleck: The one ex-boyfriend that never got slammed on the show. Tall, Handsome, successful, and, before Monica (whom he loved completely) had banged a total of ONE girl, his now deceased wife.
Bruce Willis: played a character who Jennifer Aniston was attracted to. Why was she attracted to him? Well, he was Bruce Willis and he raised his daughter on his own, which was tough.
=============================================
I am telling you, outside of Entourage, it is basically impossible to find a male character in the movies, and especially on TV, who has enjoyed casual sex, prefers slim girls to moderately overweight ones (as well as obese ones) and is shown in a positive light.
@Some Handle
I love James Bond! Roger Moore is my favorite (but then the rule is that your first James Bond is your most beloved one) second place goes to Pierce Brosnan and I do agree The new bond is a post modern sham. The bond girls were hot play toys whose only function was to look pretty and get the lead laid like tile. Now there most be some ulterior motive for the sex and he falling in love with Vesper Lynd and getting tortured and captured and rescued by her…ugh! I haven’t watched a “blond, bond” movie after that, can’t wait for the franchise to hire another actor and go back to its roots. My hope is that Robbie Williams get’s the role I think he has the charm and looks to pull it off, although hubby says he needs to get as bit older to be believable.
For all here thinking that I’m all about “wish fulfillment fantasy for women rock!” I’m more ” Wish fulfillment fantasy for men and women rock!” I do adore those James Bond books and movies as much as I love Twilight…well maybe a bit less I don’t have a Bond shrine. :p
But is not like they have a good set of merchandising products.
I do own all the movies and know by memory all the original songs, another great thing about the movies is the soundtrack, really great sultry songs, YMMV.
Crap, “Some Handle” was me.
They don’t call it literature either. People don’t bother insulting that which nobody defends.
Although it isn’t hard to find men disparging porn. Whether because their religious or “manginas” or some other reason.
You say that like a “plot hole” and “taking the easy route” are mutually exclusive. That’s stupid. If anything, taking the easy route is one of the most common causes of plot holes. Duh.
Ah, like you critique things I’ve written without reading them? Double standards – thy name is human.
If you don’t plan to read the book, why then did you comment on this thread in the first place? Hmmm… we all have our hamsters, don’t we?
But is not like they have a good set of merchandising products.
I believe that they are trying to have a successful Bond video game series, but I do not know much about that stuff.
You say that like a “plot hole” and “taking the easy route” are mutually exclusive. That’s stupid. If anything, taking the easy route is one of the most common causes of plot holes. Duh.
The wiki article seems to agree with me. If the plot hole destroys the premise them it can be called as such if it helps it them is just deux ex machina..
Ah, like you critique things I’ve written without reading them? Double standards – thy name is human.
???!!! When I had criticized your work?
If you don’t plan to read the book, why then did you comment on this thread in the first place? Hmmm… we all have our hamsters, don’t we?
I just commented on one thing about the book I didn’t added an essay analyzing the characters neither I expressed any level of sympathy or disdain for them or commented about the content, characterization or if the rest of the book sustain its premise. I just commented on one thing and then added comments about Romance Genre as part of an ongoing discussion I have had with other male commenter here.
Ok. I think I get that women may fantasize to get a “feeling” or “emotion”, but I still don’t get why they can’t just find a way to do it with their mate. Granted its probably much easier doing it by imagining some perfect scenario with some perfect man, but the point of a relationship isn’t to make things easy.
And I still maintain that exposing yourself to perfection too much can make you less appreciative of what you actually have. Maybe that is a male vs. female thing. But I would guess there are a lot of guys that feel similarly. I used a car example earlier because that is one I have experienced directly. With each better auto I buy, I am less satisfied with a lesser car when forced to drive one. I quickly find myself pointing out the flaws and lack of perfomance/comfort. And I’ve always maintained that cars are female, so I see it as a viable parrallel.
Pick-up trucks and heavy duty SUVs are male. :p
re: Casual Sex for Men on TV
Holy Crap, I am watching Modern Family in the background while reading HUS, and the Ed O’neill character is talking about some casual sex he had after his divorce. How did he go about it?
He confesses that the morning after having sex with her, he crawled out the window, put his pants on in the driveway and put the car in neutral (so it would not make a sound) and rolled away, never to speak to her again.
Just one more pathetic male when it comes to casual sex.
2012. You’ve come a long way, baby!
@Anacoana C., Ramble
Re: Bond. James Bond.
What? No love for Sean Connery? He was an awesome JB back in the day!
By the way, if they ever have a black James Bond, what would think about casting Idris Elba (The Wire, Luther). He is an excellent British actor. Handsome, too.
Jackie,
You consider Dr. No to be a good, modern example of a sexual male?
@Ted D
They do! I think the romance novels serve as an inspiration – it’s pretty clear that 50 Shades does. My guess is that there are many married women who haven’t considered spanking before, and now they’ll request it with that gray tie as a prop. I think there are going to be a lot of husbands who are shocked by their wives’ new “suggestions.”
@Jackie
Idris Elba would be *awesome* as James Bond. He was amazing as Stringer Bell in The Wire. I read that his agent told him that when he went for the audition, to pretend he was American. He felt that they wouldn’t knowingly hire a Brit for that gritty role.
I think I read somewhere that Elba was on a short list for the part of Bond.
@Ramble
I only scrolled up to see people were talking about James Bond– I need to catch up on the conversation. Oops
Apologies, Sir Ramble–
@Ana
“Now there most be some ulterior motive for the sex and he falling in love with Vesper Lynd and getting tortured and captured and rescued by her…ugh!”
The film actually followed the plot of the first Fleming novel pretty closely. He was ready to retire from the service and settle down with VL. The literary Bond is pretty much a one women (per book) guy, and he didn’t even get the girl in Moonraker. She was already engaged. The cinematic Bond who beds multiple women per film doesn’t seem to have much connection to the source material. And neither do most of the plots (after Thunderball). Connery’s the best, hands down : )
@Susan (#332)
Great minds think alike.
Wow, interesting about the casting, though! Are you a “Wire” buff, too? It was so hard for me to get into– by the 3rd episode I was tearing through it.
Many critics liken The Wire to the great American novel in televised form. Did you know they are putting together a graphic novel, like a Dickensian version — supposedly. (Will have to check on this.)
I *loved* Omar. Stringer Bell was handsome, but absolutely left me cold as ice. Total sociopath with the Barksdale Organization. (The kids who were dealers— so so sad.
)
@Megaman
Hey Megaman!
Cool to get the story background on JB– I just saw the flicks, never read the spy novels.
So glad you decided to come back.
Also cool to get one more vote for Team Connery as the best Bond
@Jackie
Heh, I’m not endorsing JB as man of the year. He’s also much more of a cold-blooded killer in the books. Not to mention sexist and racist, too. But he’s just a literary character, so I give him and guys like Tom Ripley some slack : )
Hey all. Back from my getaway. Had to cut the week down to 2 1/2 days because gf’s work schedule. So that was a bummer. Still, had a great time. Also, she’s moving in with me this weekend! So I’m excited. Have some stuff to say about this post, but I need food first.
@Megaman (#337)
Darn, I hate finding out fictional characters are racist and sexist.
Do still love a good popcorn movie and will always see the next JB flick, tho.
BTW, did you read _The Talented Mr. Ripley_ as well? I heard the book is pretty dark. It must be synchronicity that you mentioned it– I just downloaded “Tu Vuo’ Fa Americano” (think that’s the spelling!) from the soundtrack on iTunes. Catchy!
@Jackie
Thought the movie strayed too far from the novel though. I’ve enjoyed all 5 of Highsmith’s Ripley books, but they are dark in tone and humor. However, he’s the only instance where I’ve ever rooted for the antagonist to get away with it. Real amoral sociopath, but so well written. I’m a mystery fan at heart, so you’d never catch me reading “50 Shades of Dreck”. The spiciest stuff on my bookshelf is Henry Miller, also a sexist. Sorry about that : |
Basing everything I say about the novel on Sue’s article and things I’ve heard elsewhere, since I haven’t read it myself. If I get anything wrong, feel free to correct me.
I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, we have the successful man who copes with a history of abuse by presenting a hard shell to the world in order to protect his inner child from more pain. This pretty well describes me, so I should feel somewhat flattered that it’s part of some female fantasy, I suppose.
Also, it’s pretty clear from Sue’s summary of the story that the fantasy actually does include eliciting beta traits from the man, making him a fully-realized individual. So that’s good.
On the other hand, “tough” is an inaccurate description of Grey as he is presented at the start of the fantasy. The sardonic grins, the warning that he doesn’t do the girlfriend thing, the comment that he doesn’t make love, he fucks…. hard–not to mention the contract he wants Steele to sign–all serve to paint a picture of Grey as some kind of sociopath–player. I read it and imagined Roissy with George Clooney’s looks and bank accounts.
As someone who grew up with a handsome, charismatic sociopath who managed to get laid like tile, I was put off by the idea that this was the man for whom Steele fell. Though she ultimately brings out the good in him, and that dimension probably fulfills her emotionally, it’s clear–or seems clear anyway–that the initial desire–the lust that makes this 21 yr old virgin decide to have sex with a man who “doesn’t do the girlfriend thing”–not to mention the lust that carries the reader into the story–is based entirely on a character who screams alpha w/o evincing an iota of beta.
It’s not surprising to me that some women fantasize about this sort of thing (as I said, my brother was never wanting for girls growing up), but I am surprised to hear people here say that this is the ultimate female fantasy.
I was also put off by the sharp increase of grey silk ties in NYC. One has to imagine that the women buying the ties will not be imagining the chumps tying them up with their new expensive accessories, but, instead, Grey himself.
If Grey, as he seems to be presented at the beginning of the story, is in fact the ultimate female fantasy, then men need to start reevaluating their relationships.
@Jackie
I think The Wire is probably the best television ever. I too loved Omar, and that’s emblematic of what was so great about the show – it was very hard to say who was bad and who was good. One of my favorite moments was early on, when D’Angelo is teaching the kids in the hood how to play chess. He says, “The king stay the king.” God, I loved that. He was so fricking smart, and so ill suited to that life. It was a real tragedy.
I have a story worth sharing. I went to see a production of Macbeth in Boston a few years ago. It was fairly low budget – performed at BU. There was a guy in the audience, probably only 50-75 people at the most – he looked so familiar. It was bugging me throughout the first act. My husband agreed we knew him from somewhere but we couldn’t place him. At intermission, it struck me. He was Pryzbylewski! On the rare occasions I see celebrities, I always ignore them, but in this intimate setting I felt compelled to say something. I approached him and told him that I thought he’d done fine work in The Wire. He was very gracious and appreciative. Then a funny thing happened. He was with a woman (friend? sister?) who punched him in the upper arm and said, “See? People do so know who you are!”
@Jesus
Moving in together! That is an exciting development! I’m glad you had wonderful time away with your beloved.
I’m nervous about how you’ll take the post. Anacaona wanted me to take it down so as not to upset you. That’s empathy! SayWhaat was also worried. But I promised I would always be truthful, and I wrote it up as honestly as I could. I feel confident we’ll muddle through
Oh, and “Graaarghghg” is the exact sound my grandfather used to make when passing a stone.
@Susan
You met Prez from “The Wire”?!? WOW. I wish I had been there– I *loved* the part in Season 1 (Barksdales) where he figured out the “code” of the phones (reversing digits across the 5 in the keypad). And I love-love-love the chess scene in the towers. SO brilliant.
I will see you the D’Angelo quote, and raise you with one from Omar: “You come at the King, you better not miss.” Indeed. (BTW, D’Angelo’s story– especially the end– broke my heart. Can you imagine what his life would be like if he had been born to a decent family?)
Also loved Omar’s court scene against the slimy lawyer– Maurice. Where he says, You’ve got the briefcase, I’ve got the shotgun. “It’s all in the game.”
I’m in Season 3 right now. Did you think it’s better than Season 2 (Ziggy! Most annoying character EVER. Yet his ending broke my heart as well. And that merciless “Greek”, who wasn’t even Greek.)
OK, I know it’s not “Hooking Up With The Wire” and won’t go on about it– but David Simon is a *genius*!
No, as a woman I think the vast majority of them will *not* be imagining Grey.
@Jesus M
Hi Jesus! Welcome back!
Sounds like you had a great trip. It’s wonderful to hear you’re doing well!
Hi Jackie. Thanks, yea I did. And it’s great to see you’re becoming a regular again.
Sue,
Yea, I’m excited. I’ve never lived with a woman. It’ll be a new experience for me. And her apt is in her parents’ house, so she’s really never been out on her own. We’re both excited.
The post didn’t bother me. I mean, obviously I had my opinions about it, but I’m not allowing it to affect my own views.
@Jesus
I agree with you. I felt so uncomfortable when she was evaluating that contract. Everything about the guy creeped me out and she was strongly attracted. If I believed she was trying to beat him at his own game from the start – not unheard of in romance novels – I might have felt more sympathy. But you are correct – no glimmer of Grey as an emotionally functional human being is present at the start.
However, he begins making concessions almost immediately. It’s hard to say when most women buy in – I began to soften towards the character when he announces that he is experiencing all kinds of “firsts” with Ana. IOW, when he began to seem emotionally vulnerable. So I do think it’s a timing question, and it’s impossible to know how women experienced the arc of the story.
At the end of the second book, Ana offers him a naughty session as a birthday gift, and he focuses on her pleasure and then expresses that he wants to make plain old love to her. Essentially, he’s pussy whipped at that point.
I don’t know what the sales figures are, or if this was a tidbit offered to the press with no real numbers. I can only say that I believe my husband would say that tie (in the pic) is ugly, and would not be enthusiastic.
Impossible to say. We don’t like Grey in the beginning, but he changes and becomes a whole human being when he is loved. The 180 is pretty compelling, and I think that is what drew many women in. That’s the fantasy – healing the traumatized boy through love. I think that also explains the general appeal of the bad boy – the potential for redemption and reform through love.
@JM (#348)
Thanks!
For Lent I gave up internet (besides email) and Dr Pepper— until I broke down at the end. Also: mentoring teen & pre-teen girls, kind of like an in-house charm school. (Going to stuff like an authentic British high tea, concerts, listening, stuff like “How to Disagree Without Being Disagreeable.”) Cool!
Anyway, 40 days is a long time! It’s nice to be back.
See you around!
Ok. I think I get that women may fantasize to get a “feeling” or “emotion”, but I still don’t get why they can’t just find a way to do it with their mate. Granted its probably much easier doing it by imagining some perfect scenario with some perfect man, but the point of a relationship isn’t to make things easy.
There are possible many reasons but I think a major one is beig afraid of the repercussions, I remember one of the few PUA’s that read Twilight saying that Edward spent hours listening to Bella’s inane and dreadful teenager ramblings with the attention and interest like she was discussing nuclear physics and that women were insane if they dream that a real man will want to do that instead of spending time doing real stuff. What if you ask your mate to do something really meaningful for you (like shopping or going to a Celine Dion concert) that men have on “chick crap” file and you say no or just do it in the less enthusiastic way possible as to make sure she won’t ask for that again? Imagine asking your wife for a blowjob and she acting similarly? Emotional acts for women are like sex acts for men.
There are other reasons too, but I wouldn’t be surprise if this is not at the top, YMMV.
What? No love for Sean Connery? He was an awesome JB back in the day!
At the risk of getting tart and fettered (to steal Sassy’s expression) I love Sean Connery and find him sexy on everything (Highlander movies specially) but not in James Bond. I tried trust me I tried but there is some assholiness in his face that kill the charm for me that I don’t see in Roger Moore (and those movies were really campy) and Pierce Brosnan.
@ Jesus Mahoney
Welcome back man. It’s good to hear that you enjoyed your time away with your special lady.
I really hate to ruin this happy time for you by dropping a logic bomb right into the thick of things. I can’t help myself for wanting to ask this question though, so here goes.
Are you completely comfortable with the idea of moving in with someone after only 5 months of dating them?
LOL, the sex scenes really are just terrible. There’s something else – the characters are stupid. Yes, they’re successful and educated. The writer is a TV production executive. But the dialogue is dumb, and painfully banal. For me, it makes the sex lame, since they’re saying the most ridiculous and stupid things to one another.
Sassy,
Thanks. Yea, I’m comfortable with it.
@Anacoana Cullen
“At the risk of getting tart and fettered (to steal Sassy’s expression) I love Sean Connery and find him sexy on everything (Highlander movies specially) but not in James Bond. I tried trust me I tried but there is some assholiness in his face that kill the charm for me that I don’t see in Roger Moore (and those movies were really campy) and Pierce Brosnan.”
Hmmm, interesting! The thing is: I would bet money that SC is a total jerk in real life, but he is still my fav JB. Although didn’t see the RM and PB until later, saw the SC ones first. Maybe it’s imprinting!
That’s the fantasy – healing the traumatized boy through love. I think that also explains the general appeal of the bad boy – the potential for redemption and reform through love.
The changing his life for better is probably the key part of the fantasy. If you remember the old 80′s TV series Beauty and the Beast. Vincent was not rich or handsome he was lonely, ugly and lived on a sewer and his relationship with Catherine was pure and non sexual and there was as many women in love with him as they are of the handsome rich Edward and probably of Gray.
The key was that his life was better because Catherine was in it now.
He managed to control his savage side with just a word from her. I think that is it at the heart of the fantasy even if the handsome rich bad boy is represented the most, YMMV.
@Jackie
Oh, you’re just watching! Let’s see, Season 1 was the towers, Season 2 was the docks? I think 4 was the schools and 5 was the press. What was 3 – the politics? It’s been 4 years since I saw the last season, so I’ve forgotten some details. My least favorite season was 2, I think. It was all good, though.
@Jackie Swan
I mentioned it before, your first James Bond is your favorite James Bond. But why was SC the first for you? I though you were my age (34) or younger?
For what it’s worth, I think the idea of woman as redeemer appeals to most men, too. It does to me, anyway. The idea of being a better man because of the love of a woman is one that resonates with me.
It’s the initial attraction to Grey that irks me. And I’m not convinced that readers would have given it a chance if they didn’t find him attractive initially. Readers are a fickle bunch.
@Susan
Yep! One of my friends started watching, and would. NOT. SHUT. UP. about it. (I realize: Now I am “that person”!)
Tried starting it 3 times. Once I forced myself to watch all the episodes on the disc, then I was hooked!
Yep, I think Season 3 is politics. That Carcetti guy– SO sleazy and double-dealing. A true politician, I guess!
PS: Please don’t let me know if anything bad befells my beloved Omar. I named my fish after him; the other fish is Bunk. I know this whole thing is going down like a Tolstoy novel, but, to quote the X-Files, I Want To Believe!
Yea, nothing kills the whole fictional dreamspace faster than poorly written dialogue.
@Jackie
No worries, I won’t give anything away. Enjoy every minute of it. I felt bereft when the series ended.
Hey Ana!
One of my friends in college couldn’t believe I hadn’t seen any of them. He made me watch Goldfinger & From Russia With Love. This friend was a cellist– he later showed me the TD one (“The Living Daylights”?) to point out all the errors and impossibilities.
I’ve seen them all out of order, but not starting in 1962! Ha ha!
@Susan
Thanks!
Hey, did you see any other works by David Simon? “The Corner” or “Treme”? I know I’m going to need a fix once I finish The Wire. (Although I won’t let myself think about that now!)
One of my friends in college couldn’t believe I hadn’t seen any of them. He made me watch Goldfinger & From Russia With Love. This friend was a cellist– he later showed me the TD one (“The Living Daylights”?) to point out all the errors and impossibilities.
I’ve seen them all out of order, but not starting in 1962! Ha ha!
Heh okay that makes sense and Timothy Dalton was the worst James Bond…till Daniel Craig, IMO.
@JM
WB, congrats.
I’ll let Ted speak for himself (I haven’t read through yet–I’m guessing he has already), but this strikes me as silly. I mean, if you choose to believe that all women occasionally think of other men while having sex with their partners, fine, but to declare his feelings as “delta” or the exact opposite of “alpha” is just wrong.
I agree that worrying too much about it isn’t good, but I’m with Ted in that I don’t want to be with a woman who’s fantasizing about other men while we’re having sex. It’s not about insecurities or a fear that she’ll leave me. It’s about the way that I experience intimacy. Fantasizing about other men–real or imagined, whether she’s fucking me at the moment or masturbating on her own–is something that doesn’t sit right with me. Perhaps you’re fine with your wife doing that. Perhaps you even fantasize about other women while having sex with her. But not everyone approaches love and intimacy the same as you. There’s nothing inherently “alpha” about your relationship values. Just as there’s nothing “delta” about Ted’s.
Lokland,
Thanks, bro. Did I see something about you going through major changes in your personal life?
@Ramble, Sassy (#272)
Finally read up through the thread to Roger Sterling from “Mad Men.” Ramble, I will be completely honest: I would be no good at discerning what you are looking for, re: male sexuality on tv. The shows I watch right now are The Wire and Mad Men and Game of Thrones. I *like* them because they are ambiguous and thought-provoking and worthy of discussion.
And being a practicing religious person I don’t see a lot of the stuff on the shows as being a good example for men or women. More like a commentary on human nature. I’m sorry this isn’t more helpful.
(I will say, you are spot on about Roger Sterling in MM. Are you watching this Season? I don’t want to spoil you, but last episode shocked me.)
JM, congrats, congrats on your upcoming living arrangements!
Fantasies — just to serve as a counterpoint to women who fantasize about stereotypical alphas… Even as a teen, I imagined having a boyfriend who was kind to others, maybe involved in humanitarian work, a good writer… Things I like about my current bf — the warmth in his brown eyes, how he cares enough about his health and his body to visit the gym regularly, the way he plays with his nephews (we flew kites in the park together and it was the cutest!), the fact that he does really interesting research at a tier I institution (fun things to talk about after work), the fact that his beard smells so good (I snort it sometimes and get a buzz), the fact that he goes shopping with me for spices and has taught me quite a few cooking tricks, the fact that we had a nice athletic hiking vacation recently in South America (I like activity more than lounging)…
The things I hate most in a guy — arrogance, being rude to waitstaff, being rude to anyone, really… Refusing to collaborate… Always having a forceful opinion… Being overly dominant (it reeks of insecurity/sociopathy to me…)
Something that gave me an unexpected tingle a couple of months ago — watching a male colleague of mine be extra awesome and supportive with a group of teenagers via a skillful use of humor. The banter and the joking just slayed me…
Anyway, just keep remembering that there is not one universal female fantasy. We are not all running around buying gray ties.
None of that appeals to me either. And your example of the co-worker explaining something to teenagers sounds charming (it takes a lot of social skill to make teenagers think you’re okay).
I think what’s going on here is people are projecting what they like or don’t like onto the words alpha/beta/omega/sigma/gamma/delta/(what more? epsilon?). Some of the men seem to think ‘alpha’ necessarily means ‘asshole,’ and there’s no doubt Christian Grey is one at the beginning of 50 Shades of Grey. I’ve also never read the books and don’t plan to, so I’m going off Susan’s summary here, but you know when you start reading a romance-ish novel that the ‘hero’ will turn out to be a good guy deep down. That’s really all I can come up with to explain Grey’s sociopath behavior at the beginning.
Since I posted about wanting a more dominant man, I want to clarify that I don’t want an asshole. I want someone who is kind, gentle, and loving, but also strong, decisive, and smart. And only for me. So basically I’m saying–I want to have my cake and eat it too.
Barney, I am least familiar with because I think the writing on the show is pretty bland. However, I have seen 2 or 3 episode and it seems like his “hi-jinks” are constantly causing eye rolls from the rest of them.
But all the guys listen to him and Robin ended up sleeping with him. I think the eye rolling is not disapproving more like part of the joke.
Charlie (from Two and Half Men) – He is constantly, CONSTANTLY, drawing criticism for his womanizing and “empty” relationships.
Sweet Allan is the one constantly criticized because of his loser status with women. I don’t think Charlie was depicted as anything but fun loving and successful with an occasional one or two worth it women he lost he was just the one that always have a girl to have sex with.
Joey was rarely shown actually having casual sex, but he was shown helping to care for another man’s child while falling in love with the baby’s mother.
Okay Joey was more of a serial dater but he always was having a new love interest while the other guys were pretty much ignored. No shame on that.
Monica: But you broke up with Jennifer when she got fat
Chandler: Yeah, but I was 15
M: Well, how much did she gain?
C: 145 pounds!!! [imagine how much more interesting it would have been if he had said 20]
M: Wow! In one year? Did she eat her whole family? (laughs) Still…
C: I dont think of you as a thin, sexy woman
M: [angered look]
… from here he tells her that he does not see her as thin and sexy, but as the woman he loves (awww). God forbid he actually preferred her slim and would not be attracted to her if she gained weight (which, he wasn’t…and rightfully ashamed of)
Heh they still made it even worse by having that episode of what if Monica never had lost the weight she cheated on him and lost her virginity to Joey and he fell for her. To be fair though Monica wanted to sleep with Joey and they did had a crisis over the fact that he was not her first choice about sex so…I actually never liked Friends that much I just watched it once in a while to know what the fuss was about and because I hate not having my pop culture references up to date. The same thing I got from Seinfeld. Horrible people are not funny! :p
Tom Seleck: The one ex-boyfriend that never got slammed on the show. Tall, Handsome, successful, and, before Monica (whom he loved completely) had banged a total of ONE girl, his now deceased wife.
And also old enough to be Monica’s father so it still counts…
Bruce Willis: played a character who Jennifer Aniston was attracted to. Why was she attracted to him? Well, he was Bruce Willis and he raised his daughter on his own, which was tough.
Old enough to be her father too, again you asked for examples I’m just providing them.
I am telling you, outside of Entourage, it is basically impossible to find a male character in the movies, and especially on TV, who has enjoyed casual sex, prefers slim girls to moderately overweight ones (as well as obese ones) and is shown in a positive light.
I don’t deny that. I’m just showing that there are still some examples of the womanizers that are not killed of aid’s or a jealous husband or boyfriend, YMMV.
Sue,
I get–and accept–the idea of conjuring “feelings” as a means of arousing oneself. That makes sense to me. I’m fine with that, frankly. I have no problem with my gf masturbating if she wanted to, and indulging in “fantasy” if that’s what is meant by fantasy–so long as the masturbation didn’t cut into the quantity or quality of the sex we were having together.
I would not be fine with her fantasizing about another man–real or imagined–especially not if she thought of the fantasy man as more “ideal” than me. And I wouldn’t be comfortable with her fantasizing about things she wanted that she felt I wasn’t providing her–in or out of bed. Of course, I don’t try to police her thoughts; I just trust that she’s not fantasizing in that sense.
I imagine Hope saying that this is because I’m an NF and that NT’s and ST’s and the rest experience relationships differently.
Oh, and on that note, we discovered the other day that my gf is ENFJ, which is supposedly a good match for an INFP.
pennies,
Thanks!
Yea, that’s what I’m choosing to believe at the moment.
You sound like you have a good relationship with your bf. Good luck with it!
I wanted to clarify that having a fantasy and fantasizing during sex or with the purpose of getting aroused are subcategories of romance. Please don’t think women are fingering themselves while reading Jane Austen although some women do. Is surely the minority.
For anyone interested read the the wiki entrance on Romance novel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_novel
50 Shades of Gray would be erotica or romantica.
Twilight is Supernatural Urban Romance.
Pride and Prejudice is Historical and classical romance and so on…Don’t go in rampant burning every book that depicts a romance thinking your SO is using as proxy for Heatcliff, it doesn’t work like that and the genre has as many flavors as the ice cream, YMMV.
@Nate Alexander:
“Man, I’ve got to start writing all my stuff as romances, then I can get away with crappy writing! As a friend of mine once put it: at least guys don’t try to justify their porn as any kind of great art.”
____________________________
I don’t know if you’re in to Robert Heinlein at all, but one of his more readable works is The Cat Who Walks Through Walls. It’s not his greatest book by a long shot, but he wasn’t too nuts when he wrote it.
In it, one of the main characters is a guy who’s done all kinds of interesting things. At the time the book takes place, he’s making a living as a romance novelist because of an aversion to honest work.
It’s worth a read just to hear him bag on the genre in the way only Heinlein can.
M said:
“Oh, and “Graaarghghg” is the exact sound my grandfather used to make when passing a stone.”
___________________________________
Let’s get down to brass tacks, man:
Uric acid of calcium oxalate? How big? We talking sub-five millimeter stones here? Or are we talking the big boys, the Moby Dicks, the ones you get CT urograms and lithotripsy for?
The ones where you play Jefferson Airplane’s “White Rabbit” and pass them right when the song peaks?
In other news:
“Yea, I’m excited. I’ve never lived with a woman. It’ll be a new experience for me.”
Do not do not do not:
-Allow little niggling stuff to build up. If something bugs you, deal with it right then. Usually this is housekeeping stuff – bills or cooking related.
-Forget to have a life of your own. Sometimes it helps to schedule time for studying, writing, or solitary reading.
-Keep doing stuff with your friends, apart from her. Less is okay, never is not.
Do Do Do:
-Try and think of the place as “ours” rather than hers. Don’t let her put doilies and shit everywhere, but it’ll make her feel awesome if you ask for input as to the decor. Compromise (not roll over) in this, it’ll usually pay off.
-Keep a little mystery as far as bodily functions go.
Glad you’re doing well, Brother. I quite like living with women, and I hope you have as enjoyable time with it as I have.
Jackie said:
“PS: Please don’t let me know if anything bad befells my beloved Omar. I named my fish after him; the other fish is Bunk.”
____________________________
That settles it. The next pet I get is going to be named Senator Clay Davis.
Why are we wanting “positive casual sex role models” in the first place?
Rampant casual sex is a large part of why the SMP is so fucked up in the first place, and when the media makes it looks like everybody gets laid all the time, it just makes the people who aren’t sleeping around (ie. the MAJORITY of young people!) feel like they’re weird or inadequate.
Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeet.
@Pennies
+1 Epic comment!
This reminds me of the scene in Fever Pitch where Jimmy Fallon is a middle school teacher and takes his kids on a field trip. Drew Barrymore tingles for that.
@Jesus
I don’t blame you. Frankly, if my husband has ever closed his eyes and pretended I was someone else, I don’t want to know. That would break my heart. I have never done that – it would feel like absenting myself during sex – which I don’t think I could do, and don’t want to.
Always closing the bathroom door is a must. And seriously, don’t leave the toilet seat up.
Ramble, I will be completely honest: I would be no good at discerning what you are looking for, re: male sexuality on tv.
Jackie,
Technically, I am not looking for anything. I am willing to enjoy the enjoyable things that is offered up from Pop Culture.
However, after a while, you start to notice things. Like, that girls will have lots of examples of females enjoying their sexuality, while guys (at least in pop culture) basically NEED to toe the line.
Show that girls prefer taller guys to shorter ones? Fine.
Shot that guys prefer slimmer girls to heavier ones? Burn in hell.
Dog:”Keep doing stuff with your friends, apart from her. Less is okay, never is not.”
This should be a DO. Don’t drop all your friends to the point where you only do couple stuff.
Allan is depicted as being pathetic and Charlie is depicted as being despicable.
Right, the sexiest and most charming, though dim but loveable, Man had the most girlfriends and the more pathetic guys did not.
The one pathetic guy was pined for one (who wanted to sleep with Joey immediately) while being screwed over by his wife-turned-lesbian.
The other was incapable of fathering a child as he heard how much she loved Tom Selleck.
[I am jamming a lot of things together for the sake of typing...you know what happened]
You lost me. It still counts for what?
Oh, I see. No, that is not what I am looking for.
Hey, before we go any further, this is simply a hobby horse of mine. No one here needs to feed this troll.
But…
The parameters are this:
1.) Single Man who enjoys Sex (Committed and Casual)
2.) Is shown to prefer slimmer girls to heavier ones
3.) His basic Male Sexuality is not chastised, ridiculed, or shown to be eye-rolling.
So, for instance, the male character may meet 3 girls moving in across the hall.
Girl #1 is 24, cute as a button, with a tight little ass and nice.
Girl #2 is nice looking, 31 and a professional.
Girls #3 is quite nice but could lose, say, 15 lbs.
The male protagonist is definitely attracted to Girl #1, thinks Girl #2 is perfectly OK and is not attracted to Girl #3, though, he enjoys her company.
Throughout the season of this hypothetical show, this things are revealed and his friends and peer group have absolutely no problem with his preferences. In fact, they are never debated to begin with.
======================
This is something that you never, ever see in popular culture. And, if you did, you better be damn sure that all sorts of modern lessons would need to be learned (i.e. about his “superficiality”, Girl#3 inner beauty, unfair standards, eating disorders, etc.).
Susan – “They do! I think the romance novels serve as an inspiration – it’s pretty clear that 50 Shades does. My guess is that there are many married women who haven’t considered spanking before, and now they’ll request it with that gray tie as a prop. I think there are going to be a lot of husbands who are shocked by their wives’ new “suggestions.””
Point taken, but that isn’t exactly what I was getting at. Sure, they can ask their husbands to spank them if that is what they want ultimately. But what I’m saying is, going to fantasy to fill an emotional void just seems like asking for trouble. That is the kind of thing your mate SHOULD be doing, filling those voids. Unless of course those voids are unreasonable, as J alluded to with her husband telling her to knock it off. In those cases, I would suggest either some introspection or perhaps counseling, but retreating into fantasy just doesn’t seem healthy to me.
Anacaona – “What if you ask your mate to do something really meaningful for you (like shopping or going to a Celine Dion concert) that men have on “chick crap” file and you say no or just do it in the less enthusiastic way possible as to make sure she won’t ask for that again? Imagine asking your wife for a blowjob and she acting similarly? Emotional acts for women are like sex acts for men.”
I can see this as a perfectly valid point, but I guess I’m more considerate of my SO’s needs than some men? I would never simply dismiss her requests for company shopping or going to a concert, at least not without some discussion to gauge just how important my participation is. I won’t lie though, I *may* negotiate something out if her request is mind numbingly boring, and in those cases I usually use it as an opportunity to “game” her a little by “talking” her into something in exchange for my participation. (New shoes tonight?
)
Of course, I also ask her to accompany me on some errands that I’m sure she finds boring as hell. Part of our relationship is companionship, and I guess we take it seriously.
“The changing his life for better is probably the key part of the fantasy.”
I’m sure. It’s also the most unlikely thing to happen as well. No coincidence I imagine…
JM – Welcome back! I’m glad to see things are going well for you despite any recent mental gymnastics you’ve been dealing with.
“For what it’s worth, I think the idea of woman as redeemer appeals to most men, too. It does to me, anyway. The idea of being a better man because of the love of a woman is one that resonates with me.”
Sure this is appealing to me as well, but there is a big difference between my SO encouraging me to be a better man, and her trying to flip a total asshat into a loyal and faithful “nice guy”. I get it, women like the idea of being SO influential on a man that he will change everything about himself to get her, and that would immediately start to erode her attraction to him. (of course no one talks about that…)
I would also love to be so manly that women simply drop their pants at the sight of me, but I’m not holding my breath.
“I imagine Hope saying that this is because I’m an NF and that NT’s and ST’s and the rest experience relationships differently.”
Don’t forget I’m an NT, and we are pretty much on the same page. I’m not saying personality type doesn’t play a part, but clearly it isn’t the only factor. Vox wasn’t entirely wrong either, I am realizing that I do have some insecurities around this subject, but honestly I don’t know that I’m going to do anything about it. Sometimes insecurities can play an important role in keeping an eye on security, and I’m all about security. I think the flip side, having no insecurities about my SO is completely ridiculous. Anything worth value is worth protecting, and walking around believing I’m king shit and she would never leave would be setting myself up for a huge let down. I’m not constantly scared shitless of it, but I don’t see being a little sensitive to the possibility as a bad thing. Perhaps it’s my way of keeping in mind what I have, and what I have to lose.
“Oh, and on that note, we discovered the other day that my gf is ENFJ, which is supposedly a good match for an INFP.”
Man that is truly funny. My SO turned out to be an ENFJ as well. Unfortunately, that isn’t supposed to be such a good mix for INTJ, but her numbers were low so she may be on the fence for a few of those letters. On the bright side, our astrological compatibility is very good.
And on what Susan said here: “Always closing the bathroom door is a must. And seriously, don’t leave the toilet seat up.”
OK. Do guys really leave the seat up a lot? Even when I lived alone, I always drop the seat AND the lid on the toilet. It’s gross even when it’s “clean”, why would I want to leave that exposed to the air I’m breathing?!
There isn’t a lot of bathroom secrecy in our house. We have two teenage boys, and an almost teenage girl, with only one primary bathroom. (we have a half-bath downstairs, but that doesn’t help much in the mornings) The boys and I treat the bathroom like a men’s locker room in the morning, meaning it isn’t totally uncommon for one of us to be using the toilet, while one is in the shower and the other is using the sink to brush teeth. On the weekends, my SO and I usually share the bathroom in the morning while getting ready, but we didn’t just jump into that routine. Of course the 11yo girl gets the most privacy of anyone in our house, but my SO does share the bathroom with her often. I guess we are just rather practical about bodily functions and hygienic necessity. LOL
Again, Joey was almost never shown to be a womanizer. And, he was often the object of ridicule for his actions (i.e. wanting some girl to think that he was an “outlaw”, setting a girl’s wooden leg on fire, etc.)
Selleck’s character and Willis’s character were absolutely NOT womanizers.
The Barney character is harder for me to comment on, I have seen so little of that show.
Although, let me guess, most of the girls that sleep with him are, basically, dumb sluts, and the one “intelligent” girl that sleeps with him, he get’s feelings for.
Dog,
Good advice on the moving in together.
However, one note,
In my experience, you rarely get to ask since their opinion is so readily offered.
@Dogsquat
Dunno why you called me Nate Alexander, but I’ll definitely have to give that book a look. Thx for the recommend!
“In my experience, you rarely get to ask since their opinion is so readily offered.”
This can get bad. I’ve now become a semi-regular viewer of DIY network and HGTV… And I swear on more than one occasion we’ve been out shopping and I see some art and comment about how well it would go with the color scheme in our foyer before I catch myself, and the look that comes over my face when I realize it must be amusing as hell, because it causes my SO to laugh, to which I usually answer “this is your fault, as well as the fact that I wear colors other than black now.”
See? That appeals to her desire to “improve” me, and I don’t have a problem with learning what colors go best with what. Besides, if I have to look at things hanging on my walls, I want a say in what they are. I do miss my predominantly black wardrobe sometimes. LOL
I have lost all hope of doing more than damage control when it comes to the “frilly” stuff though. And by damage control I mean that I refuse to allow a flowery, frilly, girly bedspread on the bed I sleep in. We have a young girl in the house. I told my SO if she feels the need to “girl up” a room, she should go to town there. I did relent and let her put some stupid skirt kinda thing on our bed. I like it because I can hide stuff under there now.
My brothers do! I cannot for the life of me figure out how this happened, but they’ve hit 50 and they still do it. Ugh. Sometimes I find it up after having people over too – so it’s definitely not unusual. My husband doesn’t do this, which is a good thing, because ever since I had kids I wake up to pee during the night and in the dark I would just fall in.
I am somewhat ashamed to admit that I did not need to look this up… it is called a Dust Ruffle.
When I was in high school, I was a box boy at a Curtain store and soon learned things I never thought I would know.
@JM
Nothing major, more monogamous thats all.
@JM, Ted
Ya its definitly not a Tvs.F thing cause I’m on your side as well.
@Ramble, Ana
Just gonna use Two and a Half men as an example to show that theres no winning strategy for guys.
Charlie- Womanizer. Asshole.
Allan- Beta. Loser.
We have a society that has literally produced a game in which there is no winning option for men. Its actually impossible to be considered a “good” man.
Theres loser and asshole. At least being an asshole gets you laid.
>> “2.) Is shown to prefer slimmer girls to heavier ones”
Tbf, there aren’t very many heavier girls shown on TV in general, so that makes that criteria kind of hard to meet.
That’s why there’s so much fuss over Christina Hendricks. I think that she’s hot, but I also think that most of the attention she gets stems from the fact that she’s an anomaly.
Bad boys…woman as redeemer. It strikes me that Goethe’s FAUST is in a real sense a bad-boy story. At the very beginning of the play, Faust sells his soul to the devil in exchange for the promise that he will be able to live life to the fullest. Faust’s first use of his diabolical power is for the seduction of Gretchen (although he assures his devil that he would easily have been able to seduce a girl like that on his own, no problem)…leading to Gretchen’s pregnancy and execution and the deaths of her mother and brother.
Several decades later, Faust dies and the hell-gates open to receive his soul…but Gretchen appears as a penitent angel and ushers him into heaven. The play ends with the lines:
The Eternal-Feminine
Draws us on high
Actually, there are more than a few examples of Fat/Obese women, but rarely examples of girls “who could lose a few pounds”.
Those girls simply do not fit the narrative. Or, at least when it comes to having some sort of Romantic Triangle.
+1
I think it’s implicit in what most actresses look like what men find attractive. This whole “men really want fatties” meme is non-existent and imaginary, IMO. Maybe there is a trend toward men choosing an older woman with a ‘better personality’ over a younger, more feminine woman (like Big choosing Carrie on SATC over Bridget Moynahan’s character). I also think there is a trend of men falling in love with girls who are abrasive and sarcastic when that just would not happen in reality, because in reality most guys would find that girl rude and be uncomfortable around her.
On “Glee,” Puck (the bad boy character) falls for the obese girl, but part of the storyline is him wondering “why am I attracted to her when I could have any girl in school?” and it’s partly played for laughs. I haven’t watched this season though so I don’t know what’s happened since.
Ramble – “I am somewhat ashamed to admit that I did not need to look this up… it is called a Dust Ruffle.
When I was in high school, I was a box boy at a Curtain store and soon learned things I never thought I would know.”
Totally valid reason for knowing that. I know way more than I care to admit about how a grocery store runs from my work in HS and college.
All I know is the thing is super annoying when making the bed. I have to be all careful that I don’t scrunch it all up when putting on a clean sheet. But it does allow me to keep our “toys” close at hand without anyone being able to see them if they come into our room for any reason, which would mostly be the kids. We wouldn’t want to scar them for life…
Crime and Punishment, ultimate bad-boy-girl-redeemer story. Though I can’t recall ever meeting a woman who liked the book, and hardly any that have even read it.
Susan, if my wife ever askes to be tied up with a gray silk tie, I will have an existential crisis. Hell, if I caught her with the book I think I would have an existential crisis.
Ok I looked up the summary of the Puck-Lauren relationship to refresh my memory… it sounds ridiculous. No way would your typical teenage boy, let alone someone like Puck, fall head over heels for an obese, not particularly pretty, unfeminine girl. So I will concede that there is some “fat-washing” there.
Though I don’t think it’s any more ridiculous than asking us to believe that Shia LeBeouf could potentially save the world, let alone date all three of Megan Fox, Isabel Lucas, and Rosie Huntington-Whiteley.
What? Is this some kind of language barrier? Where do you get “destroys the premise” from “a plot hole is one that is essential to the story’s outcome”? That’s… exactly opposite what wikipedia itself says. Let’s look at the wiki sentence immediately follow:
“Plot holes are usually seen as weaknesses or flaws in a story, and writers usually try to avoid them to make their stories seem as realistic as possible.”
And… I mean deus ex machina is a SUBTYPE of plot hole, not “a plot hole that helps the premise”. That’s just… argh! I thought you said you studied this stuff? Let’s just… look at examples.
http://www.cracked.com/article/18345_5-gaping-plot-holes-hollywood-knows-you-wont-notice/
http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2010/11/top-10-movie-plot-holes-you-probably-never-noticed-before/
http://www.totalfilm.com/features/40-baffling-movie-plot-holes/raiders-of-the-lost-ark
http://movieplotholes.com/
Very few of the listings are properly deus ex machina. To quote John C Wright on what that is:
http://www.scifiwright.com/2007/12/golden-compass-points-in-no-direction/
“This second rule is a compliment to the first: If you need to have your character fire the gun in the Third Act, you cannot simply have a god lowered from the stage machinery and hand the gun to him. This is called Deus Ex Machina. While normally this term is used to mean the writer uses an arbitrary mechanism to have the plot end well, the word is still apt in cases, such as here, where the writer uses an arbitrary mechanism to have the plot creak and lurch like Frankenstein’s monster stiffly from one disconnected event to the next.”
Someone’s forgotten the forums…
Wait.
Ah I see, it’s not a “criticizing” unless it’s an essay, huh? Well ok then, I haven’t been criticizing Twilight or this book or the romance genre either.
I’m “just commenting” on one or two things here and there.
Or have some enormous transforming tractor-trailer in your backyard and none of the neighbors notice.
Urgh, I remember that the commenters at Jezebel LOVED the Puck/Lauren plotline.
That was actually one of several “jump the shark” plotlines that made me stop watching that stupid show. (I actually really liked Glee in the beginning!) The Lauren character didn’t even have a good personality! She basically had no redeeming qualities.
The whole thing was just …urgh.
You guys crack me up. Yes, a dust ruffle gives the bed a nice finished appearance, hides the ugly metal legs, and provides a nice space for storing junk.
My husband’s personal pet peeve is all the pillows. I needlepoint, so every chair in our home has a pillow or two on it. Most of the time, people toss them on the floor before they sit down.
Of course they did.
Social Norms must be subverted.
And, if you do see a Social Norm being employed, you must engage in Snark.
Since we seem to be admitting shameful things today, I will fully admit that at one point I very much liked Glee. Not so much the plot as the singing. After all, I’m a musician and spent many years in choir that I still remember fondly.
This season I’m not even bothering to watch. My SO puts it on and I do something else, which usually means reading/posting here or some such and only pay attention when they are actually singing. I think the show is getting far too political and far too PC for me. Ruined it.
I can’t keep up with talks about movies and TV shows. I’m pop culture illiterate.
Jesus Mahoney, glad to hear you had a good time with your girlfriend! Moving in is also a big step. It can be very wonderful, but also fraught with problems. I would second Dogsquat’s suggestions, with a few other things:
1) Set the tone of decisiveness, head of the household and dominance from the get-go. My husband did this with me, and it was not only sexy, it was also comforting. We got into the roles of “captain” and “first officer” naturally. This was before I had read any Athol Kay.
2) Do not let her nag you. This is usually a bigger problem for the cleaner one of the couple, which is usually the woman. Unless you never throw your socks in random places like most men, she’s going to be tempted to nag you about it.
This will sound incredibly anti-feminist, but she should be the housecleaner and cook, not you. You’re the man, you do the manly jobs, bring home the check, take out the garbage, and protect the fortress. You should help out if need be, though make clear you’re helping, and it’s not your job.
3) Try to have a date night every week. When living together it can be easy to slide into the routine of you’re seeing each other all the time, so there’s no need to go out to do stuff like when you were living separately. This can kill the romance over time. Regularly going out to restaurants or movies as a couple can be a helpful ritual. Pretend you’re still in the early dating stage and make out a lot while on these dates.
4) Separate your separate finances; combine your joint expenses. Living together has costs, and money can cause problems for most people. To solve the problems, we each got our own separate bank account, and opened up a joint account with both of our names.
The joint account was where we both contributed rent money, groceries, utilities, etc. Separate accounts were for personal/discretionary purchases. We don’t make big distinctions these days since we’re married, but we still have the accounts, and it still helps us to feel like we have our own “play” money aside from the nest egg and expenses account.
I never saw the Jimmy Fallon version, but the original British “Fever Pitch” with Colin Firth is the best ever at explaining the importance of sports to (some) guys.
My husband’s personal pet peeve is all the pillows. I needlepoint, so every chair in our home has a pillow or two on it.
I don’t needlepoint, but I love having an assortment of pillows on the bed, including a body length one that I hug while trying to fall asleep. (I like to hug the pillow while DH spoons me.) My husband thinks the pillows take up too much room and feigns jealousy of the body pillow. Sometimes he beats it up, chokes it and calls it dirty names. It’s pretty funny.
This is something that you never, ever see in popular culture. And, if you did, you better be damn sure that all sorts of modern lessons would need to be learned (i.e. about his “superficiality”, Girl#3 inner beauty, unfair standards, eating disorders, etc.).
You got me there. That is true in USA pop culture.
Of course, I also ask her to accompany me on some errands that I’m sure she finds boring as hell. Part of our relationship is companionship, and I guess we take it seriously.
You are a lot better than most modern men. I would consider it a fair exchange but most modern men will try to use it as a punishment to get out of never going to do something “girly” with their SO ever again.
I’m sure. It’s also the most unlikely thing to happen as well. No coincidence I imagine…
Well is a fantasy for a reason.
and that would immediately start to erode her attraction to him. (of course no one talks about that…)
I think you could probably add that to the part of “I don’t want to have my real man do this for me but I enjoy it on my head” any woman with a couple of brain cells and experience surely know that sometimes their man being tamed, that is for the “I want to tame him” ones, know that after that they lose all interest on him. Again this is not all women but my guess is a bit like cuckold fantasies I’m sure many men that get off in the idea know very well never to try that in real life…whether by personal experience or by hearing how other’s ended fulfilling that.
We have a society that has literally produced a game in which there is no winning option for men. Its actually impossible to be considered a “good” man.
Theres loser and asshole. At least being an asshole gets you laid.
I have to agree with that, very few examples of balance mostly on African American comedies and we know why is that…
Though I don’t think it’s any more ridiculous than asking us to believe that Shia LeBeouf could potentially save the world, let alone date all three of Megan Fox, Isabel Lucas, and Rosie Huntington-Whiteley.
I want to notice that in Transformer movies this is played as we do. Completely skeptic of this happening and everyone on the last movie say it out loud “How come she is with you!?”.
I only watched the last movie to be nice to my mother in law…not worth it.
@Nate Winchester
*sigh* Okay the writer was not lazy she just completely forgot about people having e-mail accounts at college. Happy?
Someone’s forgotten the forums…
??? So you read my comments about your opinion as criticism? Okay. I’m sorry you saw it that way.
To use a most apt example for this thread.
I’m mostly telling you that if you never dated a girl but tell me you know everything about women and will write a book about dating, because of what you read other people say without ever putting in on practice I won’t ask you for romantic advice, read that book or I will think you can actually date a woman till I see you dating one for any meaningful period of timeThe few dating books I read had been from people that have both experience with other couples and had been themselves married for as long as they had been practicing. No divorce couple’s therapists for me.. I’m a woman of results and experiments, theory doesn’t do it for me.
Ah I see, it’s not a “criticizing” unless it’s an essay, huh? Well ok then, I haven’t been criticizing Twilight or this book or the romance genre either. I’m “just commenting” on one or two things here and there.
You actually want Bella to die, and you had written long essays about Twilight characters, settings, plot and writing style, based in what other people (people that are not fans of the books or the characters I must add) had drawn from the book, and wikipedia not your own experience or personal reading (again I mentioned that reading is like sex no one can know how is it till they actually do it) and drawing from that you had decided. Point out to me doing something similar. I haven’t make any considerations on Gray and Ana or consider them unworthy it of mere existing or commented on the quality of the book just two mere points that I wouldn’t pass to read it.
This comments is the equivalent of reading the back cover of the book where there is a description, realizing the premise wouldn’t drawn me in, returning it to the shelves and someone asking me: Why aren’t you purchasing it?
My answer: I can’t really buy a college student without an email account and I’m not into BDSM, so I will pass.
Capisce? Or do you think I shouldn’t even decide upon reading and express this, based on spoilers,back-cover and premise?
Welcome back, JM! Glad to hear that you and your gf resolved your problem and to see you feeling so much better.
As someone old enough to be your mom, I’m going to advise caution regarding living together. Some people see it as a stepping stone to marriage. Statistically, it actually makes it less likely that you and your gf will stay together or get married/stay married.
I also think that you’ve experienced quite a pendulum swing in emotions in the course of what? a week? I hate to be such a mom, but go slow.
@J
That is pretty funny indeed. My husband likes to make the cat talk like she is plotting to murder us both in our sleep.
I found a full body pillow indispensable during the latter months of pregnancy. I’m sure Hope and Anacaona are already supplied, but if not, order one today!
Um……………
No, I’ll pass this time.
Yeah, if both people have full-time jobs then I think it’s only fair for housework contribution should be roughly 50/50.
Although I guess the person who cares more (which will usually end up being the woman) will naturally end up doing a bit more of the work.
If socks on the floor bother you that much, it’s a lot easier to throw them in the hamper yourself than it is to get all naggy about it.
My only personal exception to this is the toilet seat issue. I can be a bit of a fascist when it comes to the toilet seat thing… : P
I found a full body pillow indispensable during the latter months of pregnancy. I’m sure Hope and Anacaona are already supplied, but if not, order one today!
Actually both hubby and I had been lazy about prep stuff, mostly waiting to know the gender before purchasing anything so I will add that to our list. Thanks. Feel free to mention anything you think are important to have.
<i<I found a full body pillow indispensable during the latter months of pregnancy.
That’s when I got my first one. I’ve traded up several times since then. Oh, the hypergamy!
I’m sure Hope and Anacaona are already supplied, but if not, order one today!
Cosigned!
(Urgh! Typing/grammar fail AGAIN! I’m not an idiot! …really!)
Sorry, Nate Winchester!
I was stuck on stupid last night.
If you’ve never read Heinlein before, I’d suggest The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, or even Stranger in a Strange Land. Starship Troopers ought to be saved until one has a better feel for how Heinlein saw things, lest it be dismissed as a screed supporting imperialism, which it emphatically is not.
Old Bobby H can get very preachy and pedantic at times, and there is a bit of that in Cat Who Walks Through Walls. In addition, he got kind of nutty towards the end of his life, and it starts to show at the end of Cat.
Still, he’s one of my favorite authors. He’s excellent at using science fiction as it was meant – to explore and illuminate truths about humanity.
Happy reading, my man.
Ted D said:
“I watch Glee.”
________________________
You filthy fucking pervert.
My husband likes to make the cat talk like she is plotting to murder us both in our sleep.
LOL. You just can’t trust a cat.
My husband has one sided conversations in which he appears to be talking the dog out of ripping my throat out for stealing her spot on the bed. He alternates between feeling horror that the dog would even think about it and a weird mix of flaterry and disgust that the dog wants to take my place. He’s a very strange man, my husband.
Dogsquat–
Stranger FTW!!
And what the hell happened to Heinlein that made him flip out so at the end?
Ana,
You’re right not to go nuts on buying things right now. My mom bought a fantastic crib/dresser/changing table set for the “nursery.” My son ended up in a bassinet next to my bed for the first six months of his life and being changed on the dining room table (easier than going up stairs every time he needed a change.) If I had to to do over, I’d just get a co-sleeper. Besides, people will give you baby showers and you’ll get even more stuff that you won’t need.
My favorite baby stuff:
–a rocking chair and stool to put my feet on while breastfeeding
–disposible diapers and wipes
–A & D ointment for rashes
– little toys and rattles that I tied on ribbons to the handle of the carseat/baby carrier (keeps baby amused)
–a zip up cover for the carseat so I didn’t have to struggle with winter outer garments
–umbrella strollers
–slings to carry baby in and still have free hands
–diaper bags
–baby swing
–high chair (great place to park kid while to cook, too)
Starship Troopers ought to be saved until one has a better feel for how Heinlein saw things, lest it be dismissed as a screed supporting imperialism, which it emphatically is not.
I read Starship Troopers first from him and I quite liked it, maybe I’m a secret imperialism lover? :p
And what the hell happened to Heinlein that made him flip out so at the end?
I blame free love.
J and Susan, I do have a huge pillow, but I’m not sure if it’s comfortable. I’ll have to see.
Sassy and Emily, on the housework thing, keep in mind I had lived with the ex for over 7 years. I didn’t do much housework at all in that relationship, because I bought into the mainstream feminist message and couldn’t be bothered. The place was a freaking mess, and even paying someone to come in and clean, it was still bad most of the time. I felt miserable in all the disorganization and cruddiness. Yeah we both worked, but the actual work done was about 50/50 of the bare minimum. I know what the lazy side looks like, because I walked it for years.
With my husband, I consciously made an effort to be a good homemaker. I clean a bit every week, and big stuff at least every other week. I do the laundry and put it all away, and hang stuff on hangers. I cook, pack our lunches for the next day, wash the dishes, prepare our breakfasts, and tidy up the kitchen area. We eat healthier and save money, and I watch my coworkers who don’t put in the effort pay more money for mediocre fast food or cafeteria fare for lunch. I feel like a totally responsible adult with my life together and a clean and organized house.
It makes my husband feel loved that I put in this effort. He’s made remarks like “I really appreciate all you do,” and hinted that a housekeeper would just not be the same. I do things quickly and efficiently, and it makes me feel more confident about having a baby, because I know I can clean three bathrooms in under half an hour, make a delicious meal in another half an hour, and put away the laundry in about fiftee minutes. Given how much time I can waste on the Internet and video games, the time I actually spend on chores is miniscule by comparison! Plus it makes me happy, makes my husband happy, and we have no arguments or nagging about chores.
@ Hope
If that works for you, I’m glad.
I’m just hoping I can strike a different arrangement with whatever man I end up with. Keep in mind, I don’t plan on having children.
If I do end up living with a man, I expect him to pick up after himself, just as I will do for myself. I plan on having two separate bathrooms, one for him and one for me. He can keep his bathroom in whatever condition he wants. I won’t be going in it. I’ll use my own clean and girly bathroom.
I just have no patience for being anyone’s maid, especially since I’ll be working full time myself. In my opinion, he and I should split the housework and other duties 50/50.
Anacaona, get a good rice maker and put in more water. Problem solved.
A good pressure cooker is also awesome. Part of being a good cook is having the right tools.
J said:
“Stranger FTW!!
And what the hell happened to Heinlein that made him flip out so at the end?”
_________________________
I dunno. I get the sense that he was struggling to unite his life’s work into some overarching, unifying theme. It also seems he was also struggling with mortality a bit, hence the recurring characters (Lazarus Long comes to mind) that are effectively immortal.
It’s really too bad, as I think his work illustrates how a very smart guy’s perception of government, society, science, and religion evolved over the course of a long life.
If you want some pretty cool Old Skool Heinlein, try out Glory Road. Grumbles from the Grave is also a really interesting look at his life and work.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is my favorite work of his, with Starship Troopers coming in second. When I was younger, I’d have reversed that order, but having fought in a few wars tends to dampen my enthusiasm for said activity.
For a neat exercise in comparative lit, read Starship Troopers and The Forever War by Joe Haldeman back to back. Haldeman was a draftee enlisted combat engineer who was wounded in Vietnam. Heinlein, on the other hand, was a Naval Academy graduate of the WWII era. The books tell basically a similar story and are written 30 years apart – but what a 30 years it was…
Throw David Drake in there with Heinlein and Haldeman, and you’ve got three of the (maybe) five best authors of military-themed sci fi ever.
Closet nerd, signing off.
No, J, it is you who slays me, LMAO!
Sassy, I’m getting the clean and easy end of the deal. My husband does all the yardwork, tending to the garden, hauling dirt, pulling up weeds, and messing around with bugs, compost and fertilizer. He also says he gets a sense of satisfaction from it, because he’s working hard and working with his hands.
Sure, all that we do can be outsourced. There are maid services, landscapers and even chefs that can be hired. We work full time and bring in enough money to hire people, but we like doing most things ourselves. There’s no keeping track in our house to see what’s exactly 50/50. We just both do our parts. We have “equality” in spirit, we love each other and are committed to each other, so why get all hung up on keeping score?
Also, if you look at “sexy” female stereotypes, you see stuff like a woman in skimpy clothes and an apron, or the French maid outfit. These are sexy to men because they represent the woman being feminine, capable and nurturing. Likewise the dirty, muscled and hard-working man is a sexy look.
There’s nothing wrong with adopting traditional gender roles, but if I’m picking up some of the weight in terms of the male role (earning money), then I’d consider it fair for him to do some of the “women’s work”.
But if he’s earning all the money and I’m staying at home, then I’d be happy to take care of all domestic responsibilities.
Every couple needs to figure out what works for them, but that’s just how I’d probably do things.
I am a way better cook than my wife but I only cook 2x week or so. Saturdays I tend to do several courses though.
Beyond that I do take out the garbage and the recycling, I probably wash 50% of the dishes, maybe less but it’s close. I don’t do anything else around the house at all. Except loaf.
Emily, that line of reasoning is logical, BUT biology and instinct are not logical. They are primal and instinctual. I find that when I cater to my husband, he rises in my eyes and becomes more alpha. I almost can’t help it. I was doing most of these chores when I made more than twice what my husband was making as a student in grad school. Conversely I hear stories all the time of women losing respect for their househusbands. Feminism didn’t change female wiring.
Besides that, chores are so easy in modern America. When I was growing up (in non-urban China) women had to wash clothes by hand, hang them up on a clothesline, butcher the chicken, gut the meat, and stoke the furnace. AND they also worked outside the home full-time. Women often work very hard in other countries. So now I feel absolutely spoiled with the vacuum and putting the laundry in the washer and dryer. Oh and running hot water. My husband’s lived in Africa for Peace Corps, so he can relate.
I’m probably just returning to my non-feminist roots.
It’s a very different mentality from the typical American upbringing, but it works for me.
DogSquat – I know man, I know… Add in DIY and HGTV, and it paints a bad picture. In my defense, when *I* choose to watch TV, it is either going to be Big Bang Theory, CSI (although since most of the original cast is gone I’m losing interesting) or anything from Science/Discovery/TLC channels. And as far as it goes, the TV may be on, but I don’t even acknowledge it’s existence half the time. I sit and do my own thing (as any good introvert does) and she lounges on me watching whatever it is she puts on. She occasionally forgets I’m not paying attention and gets flustered when she suddenly blurts out something about the show and all she gets back from me is a “what?”.
Glee was a guilty pleasure of mine, at least in the first season. I’m about done with it now. In fact, I can’t even remember what this weeks episode was about. I did “tune in” when they actually sang though. I can’t help that I actually like some of the stuff they remake. In fact, the Glee version of Landslide is by far my favorite, and I really like Stevie Nicks.
TedD watches Glee?????????????????????????
I didn’t see that coming (as the actress said to the bishop)
BTW
“dust ruffle”, I had to look it up. You guys are usually the kings of marketing, but you renamed ‘valance’ to ‘bed skirt’ or ‘dust ruffle’? Going down market there, surely?
Pre internet, it took me years to find out what ‘cooties’ were, had seen them mentioned in books and films, but never with any context that allowed me to even start working out what they were. when I remembered to ask an american friend what they were, he nearly died laughing…oh, the indignity. AFAIAA there is no equivalent creature outside of the US – you should patent that.
I just have no patience for being anyone’s maid, especially since I’ll be working full time myself. In my opinion, he and I should split the housework and other duties 50/50.
Do you really want to shovel 50% of the snow? Clean %50 of the gutters (and carry 50% of the ladders)? Carry in 50% of the Christmas Trees? Lift 50% of the heaviest boxes? Install 50% of your DVD players and Blue-Ray?
That sounds like a horrid situation… and very American. I just can’t ever imagine a woman from any non-Anglo Western country ever saying something like that. Where a relationship needs to be bargained and cleaning is about “picking up after yourself” like you’re lecturing a child, rather than keeping a home neat and happy.
When you bring a man into your life, and enter his life, you’re accepting all of him.
“If I do end up living with a man, I expect him to pick up after himself, just as I will do for myself. I plan on having two separate bathrooms, one for him and one for me. He can keep his bathroom in whatever condition he wants. I won’t be going in it. I’ll use my own clean and girly bathroom.
I just have no patience for being anyone’s maid, especially since I’ll be working full time myself. In my opinion, he and I should split the housework and other duties 50/50.”
Fair enough, I just recommend you don’t buy many things 50/50, it’ll ease the pretty inevitable break up. Make sure that the 2 bathroom (+1 for guests?) apartment has a rent that you, or he, can afford alone.
I’m not saying that you’re wrong, just that living together requires a bit of give and take…which is why I have my own house.
@Dogsquat
Yeah, “gender equity” isn’t right. “Gender fairness” is better. So what does gender fairness mean?
In the workplace, it should be blind. Your job should be based on merit. That’s concrete and measurable, far more so than “oh, she has tits” or “oh, only a person with a dick can do this job”. I’m in a field that is technical but artsy, so the gender mix is actually pretty 50/50. I’ve noticed (been in this profession for a long time) that yeah, there are some qualities that skew for 1 sex or the other. But not enough that I should prejudge a candidate when I have to hire someone. I look at their portfolio, I judge their demeanor in an interview.
At home, you feel it out. My husband and I aren’t “equal”. Instead, it’s fair — we take over and control the aspects that are our personal strengths. For instance, I love cars. It’s my job to determine when we need a car, what car to get and then the maintenance of the car. My husband is an AWESOME cook. He does all our cooking and sets the menus for the week. That’s his responsibility (and whoever cooks, the other person cleans up the mess). That’s fair. If we did these things by traditional gender rules, we’d be MISERABLE — he has no interest in cars and cooking makes me cranky. I know that @Hope would disagree, but to each their own. I’m feminine in several ways; my husband is manly in several ways. But we’re not caricatures of MAN and WOMAN.
And I LOVE the Wire!!! WOO-HOO!!
1. I can and do shovel snow already.
2. I don’t mind cleaning gutters. They have equipment to make that easier.
3. I don’t use real Christmas trees. I have a fake one.
4. I lift heavy boxes by myself already.
5. I don’t need a man to help me setup electronics. I’m very tech savvy. I do that by myself already, and would be thoroughly embarrassed if I couldn’t.
I get that my ideal setup doesn’t sound appealing to everyone. I’m okay with that. If it works for me, and whoever my future partner will be, then that’s okay with me.
On domestic responsibilities.
I do most of the outside work.
She does most of the inside work.
Exceptions,
-we both garden. She does all the flowery nonsense. I’d much rather tend to my tomatoes.
-my fiance hates cleaning bathrooms, doesn’t bug me.
-dishes and sinks make me want to hurt small animals. She gets those.
-shes my assistant for construction adventures which typically involves man “yes sirs” and what-not the point of it being comical
Other than that the rest is pretty traditional.
Sexybearfriend, I don’t think gender roles need to be so strict as to ignore a person’s passions. It’s fine to break down chores by what a person prefers to do, or finds less onerous. But insisting on absolute 50/50 equality seems odd to me. How do you even achieve that? Meticulous tracking via spreadsheets?
I’m not a caricature of a woman either. I can easily pass for a male online, I know how to handle myself around firearms and electronics, and I can speak the nerdiness. You might have also missed the part where I refused to cook, clean or do laundry in a previous living arrangement.
I’m just speaking from experience that the woman taking on a more traditionally feminine role feels nicer. I don’t insist on other people agreeing with me. I’m just offering a suggestion that has worked for me.
“Billionaire stud chooses awkward, plain girl again. How much men’s porn has a harem of women servicing a fat, impotent, virgin, pimply nerd? Bueller?”
Ron Jeremy. Years in the business. well, not quite impotent. But anyway “awkward, plain girl” hardly equates to impotent.
1. I can and do shovel snow already.
Sassy, I figured that you would give an answer like that. Which is why I emphasized “want”.
But, you have shown that you really don’t need him. Either way, I hope you and your roommate are very happy.
Already the subject of household chores is contentious. Like I said, moving in together can bring problems.
On another note, JM’s girlfriend is in fact NF. I guessed right. :}
SexyBearFriend:
“In the workplace, it should be blind. Your job should be based on merit. That’s concrete and measurable, far more so than “oh, she has tits” or “oh, only a person with a dick can do this job”.”
__________________________
Things aren’t always so clear, though.
I used to be an infantryman. If I’d never done that job, I’d have no real problems with saying,”If a woman can pass the tests, she ought to get a spot in a rifle squad if she wants it.”
But having actually done that work, I know it’s not so simple. Men bond differently. Also, these are young (18-22 years old) guys who are literally counting on each other to stay alive. I have seen some problems in other military units caused by women being present. Much of the time, the woman hasn’t done a whole lot wrong, either – it’s her mere presence that interferes with unit cohesiveness.
Don’t fall back on the old “Well, they said that about race, too!”
Ethnicity is not as important to ones identity and interaction with the world as gender. You can look at the Israeli Army (and to a lesser extent the US military) and some of their experiences about women in frontline combat units to see the truth in what I’m saying.
On the other hand:
In my present job in Emergency Medical Services, I’d rather see more women. It makes the patient care aspect of my job a lot easier – half my patients are women, and I’m obviously a dude. All the gynecological problems, pregnancy stuff, sexual assault type things – the patients are typically much more at ease if there’s a woman help take care of them. Keeping people calm and relaxed contributes greatly to better clinical outcomes.
There aren’t any metrics for that, either – how do you measure how stressed a patient is on a scene/ambulance ride? I can see it with my own eyes, though – sometimes it would be better if there was a female ‘medic/EMT in the back of the bus rather than my goofy ass.
Just food for thought. I don’t have an answer, by the way. I’ve just been thinking a lot about what “equality” and “equity” means lately, and what (or if) systems can be set up to encourage that. It’s interesting to hear your point of view, and I’m enjoying our correspondence.
Sincerely,
Dogsquat
Uterine Technician 5th Class
It’s time for everyone to take a peek at the inner workings of Sassy6519′s mind. Enjoy the tour.
For me to feel completely comfortable in any relationship I have, there needs to be an element of detachment. It has always been this way for me, and I think I know why.
My family has a history of women who have run themselves into the ground for men, giving away nearly every ounce of their independence to achieve an object of unity. Their personal identities were practically non-existent. They stayed with their men, like troopers, through cheating, physical abuse, drug use, you name it. I watched my own mother stay in an abusive relationship with my father for 13 years out of the desire not to break up “the family”.
This has always bothered me. The situation was hell, but she wanted to stay for “noble” reasons that I don’t understand.
I don’t want anything like that. I’m extremely independent. I want a man, but I do not need one. There is a very clear distinction between those two things, in my mind.
I don’t expect a man to be everything to me, just as I hope I am not everything to a man. I don’t want to be put on a pedestal. I also don’t want to be treated like property.
I know that I’m a wild horse. I understand that completely. Men in the past haven’t been able to handle it or like that aspect of me. I accept it.
I know, however, that I place a high value on my freedom. It’s one of the reasons I don’t want children. I don’t want an obligation that will bind me to a situation, especially if it’s a bad situation. That view is pessimistic, and I know it.
Some people are okay with being practically glued to their partners. Others like to have a bit of breathing room. I need a lot of room. I’m willing to sacrifice some of my autonomy, in a relationship, but not a lot. Despite loving someone, there needs to be distance for me to feel comfortable.
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