I’ve been noticing more discussion in the mainstream media of the consequences of radically shifting social norms during the last fifty years. From James Taranto at the Wall St. Journal to Frank Bruni at the New York Times, men are stepping up and dissecting the long-term effects of the Women’s Movement on both sexes.
Jeremy Nicholson is a psychologist who specializes in persuasion and influence as it applies to dating. He’s frank about the fallout as well. He addresses the problem from a clinical or behavioral standpoint rather than a political one, but he has several interesting essays on his blog at Psychology Today.
In a recent post he addressed the high level of frustration men are experiencing in dating today. Previously, he had written about what he calls the “double bind” of female sexuality – women may lust after one type of man, but prefer to attach to a different type of man. It’s the Goldilocks dilemma, and finding just the right mix of traits is a challenge, leaving many women unhappy in this SMP.
With those two “feelings” juxtaposed, women often find themselves unfulfilled in love. Many that I talk to seem to hover between what they call “nice guys” and “jerks” in their dating life. They become attracted to “jerks” for their status, ambition, and dominance—only to be hurt when those men don’t live up to the cooperative and considerate cultural standard for an attachment partner. Women then may gravitate towards a culturally prescribed “nice guy,” only to find that they become bored, their libido wanes, and their eyes wander back to “jerks.” Either way, they find the relationships largely frustrating and unsatisfying.
Of course, this isn’t exactly news for regular readers of HUS. Echoing what so many men have expressed here, Nicholson then shares the male perspective:
If men choose to follow social norms and become compliant as “good guys”, they may get a “relationship partner”. However, due to women’s social vs. biological double-bind, these compliant men may also not be “attractive” to those same relationship partners (Buss & Shackelford, 2008). As a result, they may be punished by their girlfriend’s/wife’s lack of sexual interest, being cheated on, or disrespected as a “push over”. These men may further be regarded as “just friends”—expected to pay for all of the costs of a relationship, without the physical and intimate benefits.
In contrast, if men shun social pressures to be “nice” and follow what is biologically attractive, they have a higher likelihood of getting “sex partners”. However, these men are often punished by being socially labeled as “jerks”, “players”, or even “creeps”, unfit for socially-defined relationships. Furthermore, their tactics are often designated as “sexist” (Hall & Canterberry, 2011). Therefore, these men may get sex, but they often do not get love and respect.
Nicholson reports that men in both camps report finding an attractive long-term partner difficult. Of course, men are in a double-bind of their own. The females they deem attractive - women who are sexually-selective, faithful, physically attractive, and have a pleasant, respectful disposition – are in short supply because they too have been guided away from biological characteristics and steered toward new social norms instead. With so few incentives, it’s not surprising that many men would abandon such a seemingly hopeless quest.
Nicholson doesn’t have the answers – like me, he concludes that the only thing we can do at present is muddle through as best we can. To that end, he offers his observations of the four primary strategies he observes men using today.
1. Player
Nicholson is a fan of Game for the same reason I am – he feels that the overall message of empowerment and self-development for men is positive. He does caution that assertive PUA tactics do not produce lasting relationships:
Becoming Attractive - one strategy adopted by some men is to become attractive, dominant, and sexually-forward. These are the guys who are often labeled “players”, “macks”, and “pick-up artists”. With this strategy, men are often able to fulfill their short-term sexual needs—especially within the modern, socially-sanctioned climate of “hook-ups” and causal encounters. Many of these tactics, however, primarily attract women who are focused on short-term flings with attractive men.
…The results of the study (Hall and Canterbury, 2011) primarily indicate that [PUA] tactics are used for short-term mating and casual sex. Both the men who employ them and the women who find them attractive are high in sociosexual orientation – basically looking for more casual encounters. Furthermore, there is strong support that the women who find these “assertive” tactics appealing have more traditional/sexist views about women (higher in both hostile and benevolent sexism).
…The strategies help men and women looking for short-term sex find each other and connect. Other strategies might be better suited for those looking for a monogamous marriage partner instead of a fling.
The study looked at aggressive courtship strategies, including:
- competing with other men who are also interested in the woman
- teasing or “negging” the woman
- isolating her away from her friends
In response, women with a preference for ‘no strings attached’ sex and negative attitudes towards other women are more likely to respond to men’s aggressive strategies.
2. Nice Beta Guy
Another approach guys use is the “pure beta” approach, which requires a level of vigilance and “expecting the worst” that surely won’t appeal to most men:
Partnering Carefully - another strategy adopted by some men is to adhere to social norms and become a “good guy” or even “domestic partner”. These men often find relationships more easily. However, men who follow this strategy should pick their partner carefully. Men successful with this strategy attempt to find an honest and faithful partner, who respects their needs, and is grateful for their contributions. Men pursuing this strategy also report the need to stay vigilant for their partner’s waning attraction, signs of cheating, and being taken for granted (much as women in “traditional” relationships do). With divorce a very real (and punishing) possibility, these men may also choose to think carefully before committing.
3. The Whole Package
The most difficult to pull off, this is the strategy that I recommend to women here at HUS. It’s a long-term strategy, requiring considerable investment both in self-development, and in qualifying potential partners. The goal is to practice this strategy while seeking someone else who does the same.
Holding High Standards - yet other men continue to hold high standards for both themselves and their partners. They invest in their own attractiveness, value, and success. They also treat partners equitably according to their behavior, worth, and contributions to the relationship. These men further qualify and screen partners well, not selling themselves short for less than they deserve. This approach takes constant effort though—both in the man maintaining his own standards, and in his motivating and inspiring others to do so too. It also requires patience in searching for someone who can live up to those desired standards. However, these efforts are often met with a partner who is attracted to them, respectful, and attractive for them too.
Nicholson cites a plethora of research identifying self-control and conscientiousness as the two most important personality traits for relationship success. He suggests four ways to screen for these traits:
- Attention span – Is the person focused in general and attentive to you?
- Delayed gratification – Is the person self-indulgent or patient and willing to work towards a goal?
- Planning – Avoid people who “wing it” or are overly spontaneous
- Achievement – Does the person “get things done?” Do they finish what they start?
4. MGTOW
This is the non-mating strategy. More men are making this choice, decreasing the pool of potential partners for women.
Opting Out - finally, some men choose opting out as the best option for them. This is sometimes known as the “men going their own way” (MGTOW) movement. Essentially, these are the guys who have been frustrated and punished to the point that they see no further incentive to relate. Rather than spending their efforts on material success to attract a partner, they focus on making themselves happy. Although these guys are often socially-shamed as “not growing up”, in fact, they are arguably just reacting to the lack of outside motivation…and taking care of themselves.
What does this mean for women?
It’s not easy to snag the Whole Package.
If you have high expectations for a man, you’d better make sure you’re holding yourself to the same standards.
Go for guys in the same SMV (sexual market value) range as you. Select for character traits and achievement. Express appreciation and respect to deserving guys.
If you’re lucky enough to land one of these men, lock it down. Don’t foolishly delay commitment because your 20s are about “having fun” and “being single.” Commitment -minded men who are accomplished and attractive are becoming increasingly rare. Grab one if you can, even if he’s still young and a bit rough around the edges. It’s doubtful you’ll get another chance.
Avoid players.
Players are strictly for short-term use. If you decide to have a fling with a player, be aware that you’re also demonstrating a lack of self-control to the ideal guy you haven’t met yet. Don’t play the loser’s game of thinking you can flip a cad. They never stay flipped for long.
Avoid men who do not attract you sexually.
A long-term monogamous commitment will fail if you are not attracted to your partner. It’s unfair to both parties. Furthermore, if a man is fearful that your attraction will wane, the relationship is doomed. He will become increasingly insecure, jealous and possessive, torturing himself and repelling you. Don’t go there.
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Jeremy made a good showing with his pair of posts. He tiptoed around the women’s side of things, but he deserves credit for at least talking about the men’s side.
The fact that he mentioned MGTOW alone astonished me. And many of my fellow MGTOWs!
“If you have high expectations for a man, you’d better make sure you’re holding yourself to the same standards.”
Damn straight. And be prepared to take responsibility for past actions too.
There ARE answers to these dilemmas. But they are not entirely social…they’re legal as well. Massive entitlement reform. A major rework of the divorce/alimony/child support systems.
Course, any politician who so much as touches these ideas will find themselves ruined in moments. I won’t hold my breath at all. Neither, as I’m finding out in recent months, are many of my friends.
He forgot five.
5. Beta with no fucking clue what he’s doing.
The guys with no strategy are the majority and the ones most likely to be pulled through the cleaners.
Wow! I’m one of the 1st commenter!
I’ve been lurking on sites such as HUS and MMSL for a bit now, just out of sheer curiousity. I have always been fascinated by gender dynamics. I must have been under a rock, because I had no idea that relationships were in such danger! This is so sad — I am in a wonderful relationship with an amazing man and always have been — all without having to give up my autonomy or by being “submissive” in all things (in the bed is another thing, *wink wink*). I kinda get it — I have several friends (male and female) that are in happy relationships, but also a few (again, equally male and female) that have been single for a long time or have struggled. But I can’t help but think that the whole “MGTOW” thing is simply the guys version of angry spinster. I seriously doubt that 1.) this is a way of life that most men would consider (thereby making it of limited use in “changing” women”. Sounds really pouty, like “I’ll take my ball and go home”) and 2.) I seriously doubt if these guys got their act together and started looking for better matches for themselves (instead of thinking that they’re all going to get Playboy Bunny meets Joan Cleaver or whomever they have set themselves up as the “perfect woman”) that they would pass on a woman. It’s a sad existence and they know it and worse yet, everyone knows it. They aren’t fooling anyone with the idea that they’re happy. They’re the male version of the lonely, batshit cat lady.
Here’s how I see it:
• Men have great difficulty seeing shades of gray. With specific instructions, they’re great. But once you try to get them to “think for themselves”, it gets dangerous. I see this all the time on Athol’s site. I wonder if men just can’t trust their instincts. They go off the deep end when given some good advice and then try to apply it in cases not specifically addressed in the advice (like the Shit Test — so many are unable to tell the difference between a simple request and a Shit Test! I mean, there was a LONG debate about putting down the toilet lid. Really?)
• Women put too much stake in shades of grey. My husband’s biggest complaint against me was that I wouldn’t (couldn’t!!) ask specifically for what I wanted. Once I started doing that, our relationship became even better. By self-editing my thoughts (strip out all the side, lawyer-ly supportive crap) to be concise, it was amazing the buy-in that I got.
It’s really easy, peeps — there is NO SUCH THING as 1-size-fits-all in people. These manosphere sites all skew towards conservative, traditional people. I’m not really that way — when I tried to implement some of the advice, most backfired. Some worked — and that’s great. But a lot didn’t. If I would have continued, it could have destroyed my relationship. But when I took a step back and thought “what’s pertinent in this advice FOR ME (and my husband, BTW! He actually pushed back more than I did with most of the advice!) and what isn’t?”
Oh, and this is anecdotal (but facts fly loose around these comments so whatev’), but from people that I know, there’s an equal dispair about not being in relationships. The men that I know crave them every bit as much as the ladies. So talking about this as if it’s just a woman’s issue isn’ accurate. And finally, maybe this is a “class” thing? I notice that these sites seem to attract a certain class of people. Although all my friends and I are college educated, we’re generally the 1st in our families — most of our parent’s didn’t go to college (or went to night school), we’re solidly middle class, but from the blue collar area. We tend to be more of the so-called “cool kids” in HS (in rock bands, etc.). We also live in a big city and like to go to “cool” bars on the weekend. I guess we’re kinda older “hipsters” and most of us don’t have kids (sie note — the only bad couple I know of, they have kids. Hmmm…). Any thoughts about this as a “class” (or kids) thing?
This is the worst post I’ve read yet. It’s hard enough being female already. Lock it down while you still can?! What if the relationship with a good guy just didn’t work out? This blog makes me paranoid and afraid of ending up alone, but I’m drawn to it still. It honestly depresses me- all the good guys are disappearing and girls who want a good guy have to be fucking amazingly perfect to get him? Great, this will really help me not be paranoid once I get in a relationship with one. Susan, how about something not so grim? I feel like all of your posts revolve around girls having to be basically perfect to get a guy worth their time, and forget about sexual activity unless you want to raise your number and be a slut no one will want, and how guys are either betas or alphas (the former makes them unnattractive and the latter makes them unnattainable). Thanks for the advice-I’m a 22 year old fairly attractive female and I feel hopeless now.
Batten down the hatches, here comes the shaming language!
I have popcorn if anyone wants some.
@Chris
Pass it over.
I really have to agree Marie here – the rhetoric and tone is becoming increasingly alarmist towards women and our prospects in general. I mean, it can’t be that bad, surely??? Is HUS the tabloid of dating blogs now? This used to be entertaining!
@chris I am not advocating sleeping around. I’m just upset because I know what Susan writes about is true, but it is a hard truth and it really is enough to make a girl depressed about the future.
@ Sexybear:
You’re mostly wrong about MGTOW.
There are some men in the MGTOW who sound “angry”. But the ones I’ve read who are angry sure have reason to be. Some have lost wives, their children, their entire families, their jobs, their homes, and all their money. They’ve lost everything because of a wife who divorced her husband due to unhaaappiness or to Eat Pray Love or to “find herself”, and because of unfair confiscatory divorce laws.
Most MGTOWs I have read made the decision to GTOW as a purely rational lifestyle choice. They survey the landscape, the political, social economic and sexual arena, and decide not to play. They tried dating, they tried mating, and it either didn’t work at all or wasn’t worth the hassle. So it’s not so much the male version of the angry cat lady spinster. They’ve chosen it, for the most part.
By contrast, most women who do not marry have that lifestyle forced on them — either because they waited too long (see Kate Bolick) or because they pushed away good men (Bolick again) or divorced a good man thinking they’d find a hunky handyman just around the corner (and like most divorced women, they don’t remarry and end up alone).
SExybear:
Your ideas about men are a bit oversimplified. Men would like a Playboy Bunny meets June Cleaver. We’ll settle for Marie Barone meets Mary Tyler Moore. I think you’d be surprised at how easy it is to please a man — if the women would just stay around long enough to give the guy a chance.
@Lokland
Help yourself, plenty to go around.
@Marie
Nor would I suggest you advocate such. My personal opinion is that serial monogamy is a great approach; it encourages fidelity and provides connection in a relationship.
There was a discussion here some days ago about ‘the number,’ and it was the overarching position of men who commented (as I understand) that a few LTRs are no obstacle to a new relationship.
I’m here to talk about the legal aspect of this prism. Susan has the social facets down.
@Marie
“all the good guys are disappearing and girls who want a good guy have to be fucking amazingly perfect to get him?”
“all of your posts revolve around girls having to be basically perfect to get a guy worth their time”
What is you defintion of:
i) a good guy
ii) a guy worth your time
If in either defintion you happen to describe a man who is perfect. Then yes, sadly you must also be perfect.
Note: These people don’t exist.
If perfect isn’t a requirement then you don’t have to be perfect. But if you want good you must be at least in the same ballpark.
Its much the same as getting a job. People don’t hire lazy prigs on for the same pay as the genius workaholic. And most people fall in the middle and are compensated as much.
@Sexybearfriend
Heard many guys lament lack of sex. Few lament lack of girlfriend.
I just kinda figured I’d get married when I met the right girl. If she never showed up I got to keep playing xbox. Kind-of a win-win for me.
Marie:
“all the good guys are disappearing and girls who want a good guy have to be fucking amazingly perfect to get him?”
Oy.
For the 658,984th time:
The good guys are not disappearing. It’s that women do not look at them, do not want them and reject them out of hand. The good guys are sexually and romantically invisible to most women. I suspect you don’t see them because you aren’t looking for them. You’re looking for Alpha McGorgeous and Harley McBadBoy.
And you don’t have to be “fucking amazingly perfect” to get a guy. Sheesh. All you have to do is be relatively good looking (Marie Barone, Mary Tyler Moore, hell, even Kathy Griffin) and be nice. That’s it. Be pleasing to the eye, and be nice.
And you will have to give the so-called “nice guys” a chance. That means if women want a nice guy, women will need to start approaching, dating, having sex with and marrying nice guys and STAYING WITH THEM.
There are some things I don’t understand:
1. “The females they deem attractive- … are in short supply because they too have been guided away from biological characteristics and steered toward new social norms instead.”
Where did these women go?
2. What happens to these alphas when they hit their 40′s and start losing their hair and putting on a few pounds? Will they be ready for a relationship then?
3. Is Tim Tebow a beta?
This is all perplexing but I absolutely agree with the advice that girls should lock down a good guy in their 20′s if they can.
riley #7:
It’s only bad because women reject the good men in favor of the alpha studs.
Something else I just noticed from Marie and riley is a decidedly petulant undertone of “why is Susan telling us this truth that we need to lock in a good guy? DOesn’t she know that girls just wanna have fun?! I wanna have a good time! I want the perfect man there, waiting for me when I’m done having my fun!”
Ladies, I think Susan is letting you know what men are doing and why they are doing it. You’d be wise to listen and heed.
@Sexy –
You’re pretty much off-base about MGTOWs.
There are basically two sorts of them: (1) the older ones (over 40), more than half of whom are divorced and (2) the “Guyland” guys in their twenties. These are two different groups, with different motivations.
The older group tends to be guys who either never wanted to get married (a surprising number of former players in this group) or who are divorced and don’t want to remarry. The motivation is often more fatigue (with women, dating, the whole relationship thing and the endless compromsies it requires) than anything else. Most of these guys are quite happy doing what they are doing, which generally involves much more focus on things they were not able to focus on nearly as much when they were married or actively involved in relationships — hobbies, interests, projects, “avocations”. So these guys aren’t spinsters, but guys who really have had their relationship experience and just decided to get out of the market because they wanted to do other things with their time that they found more interesting and satisfying. These motivations are, in my view, the main reason why the remarriage rate among men has fallen off and continues to fall.
The younger group is different. I would even say that not very many of the younger, 20s generation, guys are really “MGTOWs”, but are rather “Guyland” guys. These guys are not permanently out of the market, but they are more interested, at this time in their life, in enjoying themselves, doing what they want, and so on, than they are in investing in relationships, or focusing a good deal of time and effort in seeking sex or relationships with women. Most of these guys tend to be pretty happy as well — they’re having fun, after all, and it’s not like they never have sex, either. Most of them will eventually find relationships when they are in their 30s, and they eventually graduate out of “Guyland”. A small portion of them will not be able to do that in their 30s — these are the involuntarily celibate. I would also not classify these as MGTOWs, either, because it isn’t a voluntary state — hence “involuntary” celibacy. They generally are not happy, but they also aren’t really MGTOWs, either, because they haven’t made a choice in the matter.
@deti You definitely have the wrong “undertone”. Im definitely looking for a long term relationship. I was trying to summarize the main ideas of Susan’s posts to show how hopeless she makes the situation seem for young females. When I referenced good guys disappearing, I was referring to the ones Susan advocates that we lock down before they disappear.
I think you missed the beta/alpha part as well, but I’ll reiterate- betas are unattractive, alphas are unattainable according to Susan.
Hi Marie, Riley, Deti–
I try to consider the mindset of the people who are coming here. We’re all trying to figure relationships out; lotsa folks get burned on the way, unfortunately.
Speaking for myself, I am here to learn and improve. It’s been some time since my engagement broke off, so hopefully my viewpoint and vision is clearer. I don’t always “like” the things people say, but I’m committed to learning the truth.
Susan has been really really helpful, nice and gracious. I genuinely believe she wants good people to end up together. If it gets to be too much, just take a break and come back later. “Take what you need, leave the rest”– you know?
PS: My parents didn’t get married until their 30s– both had lots of bad luck and had to overcome difficult families. The main point is they were looking and working on being the best they could be. (I’m pretty sure, seeing as I wasn’t around then!)
Marie –
I don’t think Susan is saying it is hopeless. She is saying it is challenging, and it requires effort and focus right now,, when you are in your early 20s. If you follow the yellow brick road, in other words, and avoid the issue until later on, the number of these men very much *does* dwindle as you get towards the 30ish mark. So I think the message is that if you want one of these guys you need to get serious about it now, and not put it off. It’s still challenging (which should not be surprising — finding a great mate, which is what these guys are, is something we should expect to be a challenge), but not hopeless if you start early enough and also bring quite a bit yourself to the table.
Contrary to what Marie said, I think this is one of the best articles yet.
I think it speak much truth.
I like to think I have all the quality of a Nice-Beta-Guy, but according to my success in the SMP I’m a MGTOW, by definition.
And by that I mean I put varying amount of effort (from none to extreme) towards changing my ‘catagory,’ but I haven’t have any results, so I can’t in good faith say I’m anything other than MGTOW.
From my experience, girls my age (early twenties) are still hoping to find being able to convert that “unnattainable*” alpha, rather than try that “unattractive*” albiet committable beta. (*As Marie put it)
Thus, I go on my own way.
@Lokland
What’s you gamer-tag? (seriously.)
Yes, girls have been away and steered toward new social norms by choices that girls have made.
Both guys and girls are reacting to the choices that girls are making.
Guys will act like jerks/players/PUAs because this is what is working. Girls are becoming sluttier because they want to be slutty or other girls chastise them for being virgins or “prudes”.
This is important. The modern SMP is almost entirely the doing of girls and their choices.
@Deti #16
+1
It’s cause the truth ain’t fun enough.
@Lokland I’m not looking for perfect haha. Your comment actually made me feel a little better about things. But I’m really addressing Susan’s tone- lock him down, like I’ll never be able to find someone! Depressing
Marie said:
“Thanks for the advice-I’m a 22 year old fairly attractive female and I feel hopeless now.”
_____________________________
Marie, the dynamics inherent in attaining a long term relationship haven’t changed all that much yet.
What has changed is you.
Now you know how this stuff works, and you’re thinking about some issues that had never occurred to you before. You were blind, but now can see.
It’s kind of like learning how hot dogs are made – useful information, but it does tend to detract from one’s enjoyment of said foodstuff.
Couple things:
You are still young. You’ll be fine – you just have some extra things to pay attention to now. No sweat.
Also, don’t work yourself up into a tizzy trying to be perfect. You aren’t – nobody is. Just make good choices as much as possible and maintain your situational awareness.
On a long enough timeline, everyone’s survival rate drops to zero, anyway. Freaking out about most things is a waste of energy.
I’m not a #1. I cannot never be player. It is not my nature and I’m a Christian so it’ll never work.
I’m not a #2. I used to be, but I grew up fast especially after getting dumped by my first wife. I look out for myself and I can’t expect a woman to uphold her vows even after she given it. Two-thirds of women ask for divorce so the odds are the marriage risks are not in the hands of men.
I’m number 3 and I expect the woman to be the whole package as well. If she expects a quality guy, she had better be a quality woman. Absolutely no exceptions will be allowed. She can’t weasle out of commitments without having me call her on it. As a result, I dumped women early in the dating process. Dumping is early is better so you can keep dating other women that might show up. Sometimes, I could go weeks without a date, but it frees you up to look for available women.
Marie, you may feel that a post like this is a little depressing, but think of it this way:
You now have a better idea of what is a happening out there and will be better off than those that are ill informed.
@Marie
“lock him down, like I’ll never be able to find someone! Depressing”
At least you have the option. For betas, it’s as if our only option is to wait until girls get burnt by alphas. In which case, it still sucks to be second (last) choice.
@Ramble
“Yes, girls have been away and steered toward new social norms by choices that girls have made.”
Are you saying these missing “girls” are just having casual sex and have no interest in a relationship? Surely by 25 or 26 most girls would be tired of chasing jerks and want to be in a relationship. At least most girls I know.
Fascinating post. But like Munson said, I feel like a picnicker at the Battle of Bull Run. Curious what the estimate would be of males between 22 and 30 who would fit the “Whole Package” bill. Can’t be very many.
Cooper said:
“At least you have the option. For betas, it’s as if our only option is to wait until girls get burnt by alphas. In which case, it still sucks to be second (last) choice.”
_______________________
Everybody’s got options, man. The more you work at it, the more options you have.
A little luck helps, too, but that is the case with anything.
Those guys are out there. I was one of them.
See, when I was a young man I was a Nerd, and fiercely proud of it. But being a Nerd, at the bottom of the social ladder, I was relegated to the Nerdery of life and denied the chance to date the women at the other end of the ladder: the pretty, popular girls. Sure, I was clueless, unfit, and had very few characteristics that women my age wanted. I was, after all, a Nerd.
But Nerds . . . study. And hence Game.
Game, in it’s fullest application, is a means of transforming a solid Beta into a well-presenting Alpha through self-improvement and dedication. And once I studied, got fit, got charming, got (amazingly enough) handsome and successful, I realized just what a rarity I was. Compared to my friends post-college, going through their first round of divorces, I was a freakin’ prize. I might have been a Nerd, but I was a by-gods successful Nerd, with bright prospects, a future, etc. Suddenly all of those hot chicks were interested.
Too bad I held a grudge. I married a wicked smart dumpy Nerd chick, and we had three happy little Nerdlings and have been married twenty years, Happily Ever After. She had the sense to be good mom material AND be good wife material, and only after serious discussion and rational argument did we get hitched. We’ll still be together when we’re 90.
You see, early on I made the choice that I wanted to have children, and therefore only women who would make good mothers would make the cut. And I knew I wanted to have a rich, frequent, and fulfilling sex life, so only women who were into that sort of thing made the cut. But mostly I wanted her intelligence for our Nerdlings, her adept social awareness and high standards to raise them in, and her absolute loyalty to me and the family . . . no “I’m not haaaaaaapy!” ten years down the road.
You see, Mrs. Ironwood understands commitment in a way that women lured by hypergamy do not. They get the man they can afford and trade up — she got a man with outstanding potential and then did everything in her considerable power to support him. She improved the property, so to speak, and didn’t give up on it prematurely. Or ever. In return for that commitment she gets about the best possible husband and father for her children.
But she met me when I was 25. And when she knew I was the one she wanted, she didn’t let me go so she could pursue a couple of extra dicks before she settled down. She began cultivating me as a husband from the beginning and I cultivated her as a wife. She didn’t put her career first, she put her family first. That, as much as anything, is why us “good ones” are so rare.
Our standards are high. And most are not worthy.
“their tactics are often designated as “sexist””
.
Ha, like any man actually gives a rats ass if designated as so. Yes, even in the US.
.
“If you decide to have a fling with a player, be aware that you’re also demonstrating a lack of self-control to the ideal guy you haven’t met yet. ”
.
YES. BE. AWARE. and its not just the demonstrated lack of self control that will send the very limited ideal-guy-supply walking away from you. You will merely be “that kind of girl”
Marie, actually women can’t do the real “locking down” part. When Susan says “lock him down” she probably means to be committed and loyal to him, don’t hesitate to agree to be his girlfriend, etc. We can only express our desire to be locked down by the man. Men still do 99% of proposals, and without their desire to marry you, it’s not going to happen.
The other point Susan is trying to make is that the number of men who have the desire to marry at all is dwindling by the day. As women we have to step up and be marriage-worthy, and also not have sky-high standards. My husband was “rough around the edges” when we met, but he had real potential. I took him off the market when he was 25, before he was really successful. Susan is telling girls in their 20s to look for guys like that instead of waiting for the “finished product.”
“With specific instructions, they’re great. But once you try to get them to “think for themselves”, it gets dangerous.”.
Yeah you’re right, thank goodness we’re not letting them run things, like in a patriarchy (sarc). You really are full of it, but on the bright side, you’re letting it out at a great rate.
Are you sure that you’re not Plain Jane? if not, you guys should hook up. You have a lot in common.
Ian said:
“did everything in her considerable power to support him. She improved the property, so to speak, and didn’t give up on it prematurely. Or ever. In return for that commitment she gets about the best possible husband and father for her children. ”
__________________________
If I were a gal and I wanted to get married and reproduce, the above paragraph is what I’d be thinking about an awful lot.
How do you spot that potential? What should the guy have innately, and what can he learn?
That’s gotta be in the top 5 things a woman has to figure out for herself when thinking about marrying a guy.
Sounds kinda hard, actually.
No, that is not what I am saying.
I am saying that the Sexual Market Place (or Mating Market Place, take your pick) has changed drastically over the last 50 years, with special emphasis on the last 25 years.
And girls are either choosing to be slutty, or are being encouraged by other girls to be slutty or chastised if they attempt to remain chaste and modest.
And for those that like to place the blame at the feet of popular culture, it was girls who chose to buy Madonna’s and Britney’s albums and make Drew Barrymore a star and Pretty Woman (a movie about a whore) an iconic movie.
“As women we have to step up and be marriage-worthy”
.
Men really do not have that many qualifiers. Ladies…know what they are and temper your behaviors and actions accordingly. But heck, if you plan on never marrying, by all means throw your bodies to the wind
Dogsquat, actually Susan already pointed out two traits in a guy with potential in this post: self-control and conscientiousness. My husband has both, which was very impressive to me from the beginning.
Some other good traits my husband had: disdain for mainstream culture, honesty, integrity, emotional awareness, good leadership qualities that he could also turn into good follower qualities, and love of animals (and he was not afraid to say he wanted kids in the future).
“girls are either choosing to be slutty, or are being encouraged by other girls to be slutty or chastised if they attempt to remain chaste and modest.”
.
Is this being done because there is some twisted notion that it benefits women or because women want to dissociate sexual behavior from worth and eliminate the great satisfaction men receive when dedicating their lives to worthy women?
Chris_in_CA:
“There ARE answers to these dilemmas. But they are not entirely social…they’re legal as well. Massive entitlement reform. A major rework of the divorce/alimony/child support systems.”
This to me is the thing that makes MGTOW pretty much a no-brainer. In fact even cohabitation can lead to being taken to the family court ‘down under’. Feminists have been ramping up the laws to destroy marriage and the nuclear family – and I think that they’ve managed it. In the last week there was the story of the guy getting FRA’d because his wife was pissed off when an attempted rapprochement failed – if he hadn’t recorded the sex session, he’d be in gaol, not her (you can tell it’s not a US story as she actually got gaol time).
This means that even the perfect woman could end up not finding anybody if the guys judge the laws as too dangerous to take the risk. And contrary to numbnuts above, men are far more capable of choking down the red pill and walking away than women are. ref Capt Capitalism’s MGTOW vs WGTOW article, what he says isn’t a description of every MGTOW, but he hits the main points, solidly. http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/mgtow-vs-wgtow.html
@Susan
link alert – avfm (delete this comment if you want – I broke the link, so no referrer when the link is followed).
There’s nothing ranty in the post (by a woman called TyphonBlue) or the comments (now anyway).
It addresses another part of what your article and Chris said about how women tend to view ‘the deal’ – which doesn’t commonly consider the other side of the deal; what’s in it for him? is it seriously just enough that she lies back and thinks of England, as a duty?
hxxp://www.avoiceformen.com/women/domestication-of-the-human-male/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Typhon Blue is one of the cool writers for avfm who happen to be women.
@Marie
“It’s hard enough being female already. Lock it down while you still can?!…Thanks for the advice-I’m a 22 year old fairly attractive female and I feel hopeless now.”
I know that it might be hard to believe, but I can actually feel some sympathy for you (despite what I just wrote above). It’s just that it’s worse for men legally speaking and, for the majority of men, in the SMP too.
HUS is giving you a bit of the red-pill for women, and you are still young enough to make the best deal that you can. Imagine that you were 10-12 years older and finding this out? Fertility fading and still single due to a fabulous career taking all your time. It might be a guy thing, but I prefer to know the truth (as far as it can be perceived) and deal with that.
Best of luck, I hope you find someone and make each other happy ’til death (of old age) parts you.
Ian’s story reminds me of me. I always considered myself what would now be labeled an “alpha,” (we called ourselves Masters of the Universe back then, a little nod to Tom Wolfe) but I was unusual because I was always looking for a long-term marriage partner.
My wife quickly and wisely recognized my willingness to commit to the right woman, and so I was off the market at 27. All of my male friends that I thought would make good husbands were married before 30, and most of them to women 3-5 years younger. Now in my late 40s, I’ve had plenty of my still-single female peers or friends of my wife lament “Why can’t I find a guy like you?” I always answer that guys like me were out there, but we all got married 20 years ago. If we are considered the cream of the marriageable crop, then it only makes sense that we all got taken early.
To complete my “old pop culture” hat trick, if you’re looking for a long-term marriage, don’t listen to Cindy Lauper’s exhortation that “Girls Just Wanna Have Fun.” The better advice comes from Cobra Kai: “Strike First, Strike Hard, Show No Mercy.”
@ Dogsquat
“How do you spot that potential? What should the guy have innately, and what can he learn? ”
Find a socially well-adjusted nerd. Best way to do that in college is to form a study group. A disproportionate number of these guys have the potential to be self-made greater betas and lesser alphas, they simply lack the opportunity or know-how to do it on their own without outside influence.
@ Maggie
“Are you saying these missing “girls” are just having casual sex and have no interest in a relationship? Surely by 25 or 26 most girls would be tired of chasing jerks and want to be in a relationship. At least most girls I know.”
Two things to cover here. First, most of the girls want a relationship, but they want something else much, much more: the social approval of their group of female besties. Some harbor the hope that hooking up will lead to a relationship, some just think it’s normal to do the casual thing until you’re 25, but they’re prioritizing badly for themselves due to social pressure. Second, if it takes until a girl is 25 or 26 to get tired of jerks, then it’s taken here about 8 to 10 years to get tired of them – she’s either a very slow learner or she actually loves getting treated like crap and is only changing in response to baby rabies. The point, as Susan put it many times, is that girls need to get serious about finding a good, solid beta as early as possible.
@ Marie
If the truth is depressing enough that you don’t like hearing it, you are not fit to be making major life decisions. That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be. Now, if you want to contest whether Susan’s assessment of the SMP is accurate, that’s completely acceptable – you’ll have a hard time proving the manosphere wrong, though, at least in this field. But don’t expect a lot of sympathy from anyone here for how much the truth hurts. Too many betas and reformed/reforming betas like me wandering around who have been hurt by the *lack* of truth.
Regarding the original article, I think the research cited is (like a lot of social psychology research) too isolated to be taken at face value. What I mean by that is this: in science, you try to isolate variables to figure out how each factor affects the outcome, alone and in tandem with others. However, with social psychology, I’m pretty convinced the mix of factors is far, far more important than any individual factor.
So, when you see research where a woman is isolated and presented with a stimulus (say, a player-type guy) and responds a certain way (for example, only women with a predisposition for casual sex and a desire for short-term relationships respond positively), the data is of limited use. Most girls in the real world are under the constant influence of the hive mind – what will their besties think? What will happen to her reputation? Does this fling “count” toward her number? How much plausible deniability will she have the next morning (“one thing led to another” is easier to swallow for some girls than “I took him home to hook up”)? Did her bestie just leave to hook up? Is she jealous of her? Is she just out of a breakup and feels it’s socially expected to have a rebound? Does she genuinely want a rebound just to get back at her ex in her head?
The mix of those factors is probably going to have a major effect on a girl. It could put “that kind of girl” in a celibate mood, or a nice girl in the right frame of mind for her first nameless random in the bathroom. Most psychology studies work so hard to isolate one stimulus and one effect, perhaps in an attempt to emulate harder sciences, that I have a hard time buying the results.
tl;dr version: I know for a fact that even the vast majority of relationship-type girls react strongly to alpha vibes, so I call BS on the psychologist narrowing his outcome to girls generally predisposed to casual sex instead of situationally predisposed.
“if it takes until a girl is 25 or 26 to get tired of jerks, then it’s taken her about 8 to 10 years to get tired of them – she’s either a very slow learner or she actually loves getting treated like crap and is only changing in response to baby rabies.”
I guess I have a few more years of Xbox ahead of me.
“if it takes until a girl is 25 or 26 to get tired of jerks, then it’s taken her about 8 to 10 years to get tired of them – she’s either a very slow learner or she actually loves getting treated like crap and is only changing in response to baby rabies.”
“I guess I have a few more years of Xbox ahead of me.”
.
and what will be there for you then?
Marie, the good men are out there. In plenty. You just have to look.
Understand one thing – Nice Guys fall into two categories. Weak Guys, and Polite Guys. Do not underestimate the Polite Guys. That velvet glove covers a steel fist. Which their enemies will feel, if the need is great enough.
Forget the primping, preening Faux Alpha PUAs. Hunt yourself down a Polite Guy with potential. Educated, good career prospects, reliable. Good husband potential. If he’s imperfect, ask yourself just how perfect YOU are. And remember that Polite Guys will politely upgrade themselves, if you take the trouble to thank them for trying.
And Odds gave some good hunting tips. I’ll add looking for offbeat sports. Fencing. Martial arts, especially the traditional ones.
And look for businesses that employ large numbers of STEM guys. Engineers, especially.
@Mike M
“And look for businesses that employ large numbers of STEM guys. Engineers, especially.”
Pfff. Drink to much, bunch of alcoholics.
Biochems where its at.
I thought this was the most interesting part:
What does a negative attitude towards other women indicate?
Also… it’s pretty easy to quantify a girl’s SMV since it’s based mostly on age and looks. How do you quantify a guy’s SMV? Appearance and fitness matters, sure, but how much does job/intelligence matter in comparison to personality and social skills? I think it’s harder to quantify a guy’s SMV because there’s more variance in what women are attracted to. Some of the women of HUS are into skinny pretty boys with long hair, others into really tall hipster dudes with glasses, and I’m into medium-height gym rats who look like they could tear me apart.
@Marie
“@Lokland I’m not looking for perfect haha. Your comment actually made me feel a little better about things. But I’m really addressing Susan’s tone- lock him down, like I’ll never be able to find someone! Depressing.”
Your welcome.
Meh, it is what it is. I like what Dogsquat said at 22.
Just think about it like this.
Your on the same road now that you were before.
The only difference is you know theres a bunch of pitfalls and you have a map. Its not a perfect map, thats never existed, shit happens, but still you have a map. Your better off now than you were before even if the road looks really depressing but its still the same road.
@Cooper
No. Not putting info personal info on a blog.
BTW, I’d suggest you learn some basic game. Cull out all the anti-game you have (contrary to poular belief everybody has something) and then start trying to find your classic good girl.
You and an actual good girl will mesh very well.
@Ian
Your post was awesome. The nerdlings bit was epic.
May I say, your choices in life and wife should try to be emulated. The world needs more nerdlings.
@purple
“What does a negative attitude towards other women indicate?”
You know that kid on the beach who always runs around kicking over little kids sand castles.
This is the female version of that.
Brenden said: “A small portion of them will not be able to do that in their 30s — these are the involuntarily celibate. I would also not classify these as MGTOWs, either, because it isn’t a voluntary state — hence “involuntary” celibacy. They generally are not happy, but they also aren’t really MGTOWs, either, because they haven’t made a choice in the matter.”
Just because someone is the absolute bottom of the barrel w/r/t to the SMP and has no hope of attracting a female who he, in turn, is attracted to, doesn’t mean he, as an irrecoverable omega, can’t be a MGTOW. These guys have seen that they can’t get anybody and have GTOW towards achieving their own satisfaction and fulfillment.
Ohh, I failed at quoting. This software is so abstruse.
“Don’t be afraid to date younger women, because you have to get to this small percentage first”
.
Well, there certainly is an overarching desire among good men to have wives with appropriate histories. Good. Drive that message like a pile hammer.
@Abbot, CornSyrupy
This issue with having to date down in age, is that I’d have to wait until I’m mid 20s to seek early 20s. I’m 23, so hence my Xbox statement.
Good men and feminists are now in loggerheads over who gets to influence the Western female sexual behavioral fad du jour. Fortunately, this shitshow is NOT even close to global
@ Abbot
“Good men and feminists are now in loggerheads over who gets to influence the Western female sexual behavioral fad du jour.”
True. But then, I’d contend that between the ages of 13 and 25, the vast majority of girls are more interested in social approval from female peers than from guys. For some women, that upper age limit is probably closer to 35, maybe much higher. Since the “vast majority of girls” are presumably who we’re fighting a culture war over, it creates a nice catch-22 about how to convince them that what’s in their best interest, is in their best interest. They won’t do it until their besties are doing it, but their besties won’t do it until *their* besties are doing it. Have to chip away at it in little chunks and hope that we outpace feminists. Fortunately, I still have faith in the average person’s ability to rationally analyze their life (given proper motivation), so if we’re right, I suspect we can win. It’s just a matter of whether or not we can get the ball rolling in our direction.
Hahahahahhaha, the “whole package.” I know, maybe, two guys like that.
Good luck looking for THOSE unicorns. Most guys I know are in “I have given up” mode or “fuck bitches in clubs” mode.
@ Odds-
“I’d contend that between the ages of 13 and 25, the vast majority of girls are more interested in social approval from female peers than from guys.”
—————
Why are you even counting the 13-16 crowd?
It’s true that young women are increasingly delaying marriage until later. I think the strongest push is/has been coming from the older generation and from other cultural influences more so than from their peers.
This is how it’s currently panning out according to the CDC:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr049.pdf
“The median age at first marriage was 25.8 for women.. in 2006–2010. ”
44% of women married by age 25.
68% ” ” by age 30.
78% ” ” by age 35
The median age at first marriage was 28.3 for men in the same period with:
31% of men married by age 25.
56% ” ” by age 30.
71% ” ” by age 35.
A Definite Beta Guy, a guy who is in “I have given up” mode can still be the “whole package.” It describes my husband pretty well when I met him. He didn’t think about dating, didn’t have a dating site profile, didn’t visit sites about the subject, and he was kind of just pursuing other things.
The girl has to make it clear that she’s into him and that she’s serious for such a guy to possibly get out of the “given up” mode though.
@Alias
“This is how it’s currently panning out according to the CDC.”
Music to my ears. Discussions should involve proportionality. Things aren’t all good nor all bad. But don’t trot out too many facts around here. People don’t seem to like ‘em : )
The girl has to make it clear that she’s into him and that she’s serious for such a guy to possibly get out of the “given up” mode though.
Maybe that will be the new romantic hero for Romances. The guy that has lost all hope on women till the right woman comes along and changes his mind…:)
I wonder if is any more realistic than the “flipping the cad” fantasy though…
ADBG:
“Hahahahahhaha, the “whole package.” I know, maybe, two guys like that.”
———
What are you defining as “the whole package?” Is it the same definition as the poster Marie #4 above?
whole package = perfect
Are you saying that your friends aren’t the best that they can be and aren’t ready for marriage or that they’re being overlooked?
Far more realistic. A man that has “lost all hope” on women typically just needs some positive experiences to reinvigorate the spirit.
Keep in mind, though, that you’re still playing a dangerous game. These guys do not understand women well. They will hurt you purely by accident, you will probably lose attraction at some point, it will be a lot of work, and they can be both bitter and judgemental.
But it’s like playing with a butter knife, as opposed to playing spin the samurai sword. It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to flip a cad.
@ Alias
“Why are you even counting the 13-16 crowd?”
I originally typed 18, but thought about and realized that it’s true for some time before that, as well. They care about their peers’ social approval more than their own personal satisfaction with a guy, even a decade after they start noticing boys.
Age of marriage isn’t a good indicator of when this stops, either. How many girls decide to marry their current/next boyfriend just because their friends started getting married? It always starts with someone’s sister, then soon enough everyone within three degrees of separation has got the itch. But that’s still seeking approval from female friends, not from the man himself, however blissfully ignorant he may be.
Megaman:
“Music to my ears. Discussions should involve proportionality. Things aren’t all good nor all bad. ”
____________
Let’s not forget that getting married is the easy part.
Staying married for a lifetime is much harder nowadays.
In my ideal world, if people are going to end up divorced/separated, I’d rather they skip on kids and marriage altogether.
Odds:
“They care about their peers’ social approval more than their own personal satisfaction with a guy, even a decade after they start noticing boys.”
——–
Oh, OK. Yes, this is one of those cultural influences due to youngsters spending too much time with their same-aged peers. This is something that the child psychology folks have pushed and the culture (parents) have lapped it up.
Alias, I do not mean that they are perfect, but rather that they possess a suitable mix of alpha and beta traits to be great life partners without the woman feeling like she is settling for something inferior. Also having drive and ambition, and the desire to improve one’s self, and able to hold women up to high standards that are not also impossible.
Oh, and willing to work on a relationship, too.
That is an exceedingly rare combination. Most of the guys I know do not have anywhere near the social acumen or alpha skills to really be “the whole package.” Men also have ridiculously high standards for women. I was out to dinner with one of my best friends tonight. I mentioned that the waitress was quite attractive.
He said he didn’t like her because she had braces. They were not very noticeable. And braces come off some day. And she was quite attractive besides that, if a bit plain. But I can’t help him see that, and I can’t help him open in an bowling alley because he thinks it is “creepy.” I can’t help my friend who desperately wants a girlfriend but is only able to perform in clubs but can’t even hook up because he’s so goddam insecure about not having sex since he was 15.
I cannot help my friend with the gambling and anger problem. I cannot help my friend who gets immediately discouraged and angry when his crush starts grinding on me instead of him. I cannot help my friend the dick who cannot even relate to men, let alone talk to a girl. I cannot help the tall guy who is shy of women and social situations in general so just doesn’t talk and is especially afraid of escalation. I cannot help my friend is horribly scarred because his LTR of 8 years cheated on him and dumped him uncereminously. Can’t help the obvious narcissist guy who gets all the girls already, because why the fuck would he stop what he is doing when he gets girls so easily?
None of these guys are even close to being the full package and I would advise any woman to be VERY hesitant to invest in them. The closest ones, they just need to alpha up and lower their standards.
Now, other than that. The one Whole Package I know has thinning hair and is engaged already. The other is sexually reserved and thinks porn is bad and also still lives with his parents, because he wants to save money before he moves out.
The next in line is me, but then again, you’re dealing with me at that point.
Whole Packages are Very Rare. That’s why you should snatch them up IMMEDIATELY. That’s also why you should NOT sleep with cads. Neither one of the Whole Packages I know has ANY tolerance at all for sluts. NONE. They don’t even like their FRIENDS dating sluts.
@Alias
“Let’s not forget that getting married is the easy part. Staying married for a lifetime is much harder nowadays.”
Preaching to the choir. Whether it’s easier to stay married or just divorce these days is going to depend on the 2 people involved, why they got married in the first place, and what marriage means to both of them. But most people do marry, and most who have never divorce. That should count for something.
I’ll 2nd your other motion. Marriage tends to get a bum rap IMO because most anybody can get a marriage license (in Las Vegas for instance). And they can just as easily tear up said piece of paper. For many other people, marriage isn’t such a disposable notion. But the institution tends to get judged by it’s worst offenders. Kind of like certain professions.
But it’s like playing with a butter knife, as opposed to playing spin the samurai sword. It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to flip a cad.
You are preaching to the choir, but I don’t think dating an almost GTOW man is that traumatic, like Hope’s my husband was seriously considering monkitude when I messaged him at Sciconnect and he didn’t made major mistakes.
Kind of like certain professions.
And religions…Sorry couldn’t resist this is a pet peeve of mine.
Yeah. Not THAT dangerous. That’s why I said playing with a butter knife
ADBG,
Don’t worry about helping friends if they don’t want your help. All you can do is occasionally throw them some nuggets of wisdom.
================
ADBG
“The one Whole Package I know has thinning hair and is engaged already. The other is sexually reserved and thinks porn is bad and also still lives with his parents, because he wants to save money before he moves out. ”
————
- Thinning hair shouldn’t be a deal breaker (his fiancee obviously knows this).
- Neither is living with parents, especially if he’s doing it to save money provided he pitches in and contributes in some way. Point your 2nd friend to some game sites.
========
ADGB
“That’s also why you should NOT sleep with cads. Neither one of the Whole Packages I know has ANY tolerance at all for sluts. NONE. They don’t even like their FRIENDS dating sluts.”
————
Yes, the good ones are selective.
Megaman:
“Preaching to the choir.”
——-
LOL
I’ve seen you at rehearsal. LOL
It wasn’t really aimed at you but at the audience.
It would be nice if getting married were more difficult than getting divorced, it’d get my vote.
These was awesome. Thanks for sharing such great strategies with us. Looking forward for more relationship strategies.
@Alias
“It wasn’t really aimed at you but at the audience.”
The ladies are pretty smart around here. I doubt most of the guys @ HUS are in the choir, let alone the congregation : )
I’m definitely #3. I still don’t like the thought of having alpha traits, but I respect myself enough not to settle for less than I deserve. And being smart, healthy, loyal, and caring, I think I deserve someone who is also like that.
However, with regards to my standards, I have a relatively easy time telling if a girl is a slut who has casual sex . The problem is the girls who go through serial LTRs and are too flaky, emotional, or choosy to be able to settle down with a guy. I mean if she’s gone through 5 relationships, I don’t want to be the sixth relationship unless I know there probably won’t be a seventh.
“Don’t foolishly delay commitment because your 20s are about “having fun” and “being single.”
I heard a woman say that she wants to get married and have kids “but not before I’ve finished my masters, traveled the world, and found my passion career. So probably in 5 to 10 years.”
She’s 27.
Wow, Ian Ironwood, quite a tale, congrats.
I can relate to that, pretty strongly. Well, except for finding the quality woman in time.
I am 41, earn almost 4 times the median family income, in shape, 6’2″, debt free, a wide range of interests, and a strong social circle. I think I was angry for a bit, and then somewhat disappointed in women. But now, I am pretty at peace with it all.
I made a lot of mistakes. I was overweight, introverted, complete INTJ. I took martial arts and adopted a Buddhist outlook. I went from a small town in a lightly populated state to a good sized college and saw some women doing things that I would never want my sister doing.
My small understanding of women was from a mother who was physically abused as a child, who never got over it, and her boys would not be abusers of women. I white knighted like a champ. I was strong, big. I bounced in the clubs, but I observed that I got a lot more attention from women when I was rude to them. I can remember specific examples where I had to deal with a fight situation, and had no time to be polite to this very beautiful blond girl, and I got in her face (just a little over, she was tall) told her to ‘stfu’ in a very assertive method and then trounced a troublemaker. She immediately came onto me right afterwards.
I really didn’t understand what was going on, but I knew something was broken between men and women. I had no idea chivalry was dead. I tried to be less overbearing with women (per mom’s strong conditioning), I thought I was being respectful, only to find out I was turning them off. I kinda got caught in the cracks.
I worked at self improvement, trying to achieve what I thought I would make me a good catch. , only to find out I really was fine all by myself, and I could set self improvement goals for myself without having women be the motivation.
Well, when I found out about hypergamy, Game, dark triad and all the social science around the topic, I figuratively shrugged, said ‘that figures.’, and now I do my own thing.
My chances at finding someone who would be faithful to me and stick with me and bear my children have past. If I knew all this stuff 15 years ago, I feel like I might have come out more like Ian.
@Ramble
And for those that like to place the blame at the feet of popular culture, it was girls who chose to buy Madonna’s and Britney’s albums and make Drew Barrymore a star and Pretty Woman (a movie about a whore) an iconic movie.
I get what you mean by Madonna, Britney and the character Pretty Woman, but I’m wondering what the case is against Drew Barrymore. If she has given offense, it doesn’t seem to be the same one these other women have. (Unless, that is, her Charlie’s Angels character outweighs everything else she has ever done. That might be what you mean, but I’m asking just in case there’s more.)
I believe there is a significant portion of reformed betas that have a two pronged strategy of (1) pursuing easy lays while (2) continuing to keep an eye out for a quality girl. While such guys will often appear to be “the whole package,” they will usually decide early on when getting to know a girl which strategic prong applies to her. If a girl seeking an LTR unwittingly exhibits flaky or unbecoming behavior, she might be bringing out the cad (first prong) in a guy who could otherwise be interested in a serious relationship (second prong). In this sense, female flippancy — so common in today’s post-feminist dating market — is quite insidiously self-destructive to many women. I’d be curious to know if other guys here agree with this.
@JUtRdr:
If we were walking down the street and you told me that, I’d give you a brofist and alter course to the nearest serviceable beer.
I must say:
I respect your stoicism. Sometimes life ain’t all we’d hoped for. Some setbacks have permanent consequences. Your ability to speak without rancor on such an emotional issue is a hard-won skill.
Well, I am thankful for the life I have, and the blessings of health and the fortune to live the way I want. It’s hard to be upset with that as a foundation.
I compare myself to where I might be in an ideal situation with a loving wife and healthy children, and I admit, that my life might be lacking.
But then I look around me at the wrecks of most of my friends marriages and relationships, and I kinda feel like I won the lottery. Some of them understand me, I expect a few more will before all is said and done.
Yes, I could have been just that much happier, but wow, man, it could have been so much worse.
Yes, indeedy – no matter how Bad anything is at the present, Even Worse is lurking nearby.
Still – equanimity must be earned, and you’ve obviously done some work. That rates respect, in my eyes.
What dogsquat said.
MGTOW teh funny explanation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wMrtGifNBo4
ah well, the embed didn’t work, but it is funny, promise.
I liked reading this by Ian Ironwood:
Suddenly all of those hot chicks were interested.
Too bad I held a grudge. I married a wicked smart dumpy Nerd chick, and we had three happy little Nerdlings and have been married twenty years, Happily Ever After. She had the sense to be good mom material AND be good wife material, and only after serious discussion and rational argument did we get hitched. We’ll still be together when we’re 90.
You see, early on I made the choice that I wanted to have children, and therefore only women who would make good mothers would make the cut. And I knew I wanted to have a rich, frequent, and fulfilling sex life, so only women who were into that sort of thing made the cut. But mostly I wanted her intelligence for our Nerdlings, her adept social awareness and high standards to raise them in, and her absolute loyalty to me and the family . . . no “I’m not haaaaaaapy!” ten years down the road.
You see, Mrs. Ironwood understands commitment in a way that women lured by hypergamy do not. They get the man they can afford and trade up — she got a man with outstanding potential and then did everything in her considerable power to support him. She improved the property, so to speak, and didn’t give up on it prematurely. Or ever. In return for that commitment she gets about the best possible husband and father for her children.
My thoughts:
I’m glad you stayed away from the hot chicks and married your “nerdy chick.” I’m on team nerdy chick because I was (and still am) nerdy chick. Dumpy? Perhaps when I was much younger, but definitely not now.
And here is the thing, I wonder whether many might realize, is that it is not uncommon that the nerdy chicks, a bit plain or dumpy perhaps, are the ones who were raised by their mothers to have “exceptional home training,” ie., modest, feminine, polite, considerate, with good home-making skills. They have good character. They are raised to be wives, but they might be ignored for the hot chicks….
Just chiming my 5 cents:
Reading variations on “Where have all the good men gone” is always rich from where I’m from, because in my country (Russia) this problem has been present for the last 60-70 years or so. (of course saying that Russian men are “lucky” because of such a divide is like saying that one-legged men is lucky because his shoe-bills are half of what they could have been),
WW2 – during which Russia lost around 10 million people, a big share of which were soldiers (meaning – men), created a terrible demographic divide between sexes. Later, due to the depression of stagnating economy of the later Soviet Union, mortality rates of men rose much higher than mortality rates of women – mostly attributed to chronic diseases, alcoholism, suicide rates and incarceration.
A small illustration – in 1961 Soviet comedy “Girls” (“Devchata”) there is a song called “Dance night” which has a chorus (rough translation)
Girls wait along the walls of the dancehall
They are fidgeting anxiously,
Because for every 10 girls
According to statistics there are only 9 boys.
Again – this was a part of an actual film, that due to the peculiarities of Soviet film production industry was probably viewed by every adult citizen of the country at some point (and multiple generations after – I saw it at least 2-3 times in my life time
)
So you can only assume, how could such a demographic divide shape the psychology of both sexes.
So to sum up: it took US what – 20-30 years of feminism? – to approach the same problem, that Russia found itself in after a meat-grinder World War and several decades of economic stagnation.
Guess USA should bomb its enemies with feminists – it looks like a terrible WMD completely unbound by the Hague convention to me.
@pvw
Elsewhere I have seen it said that facebook / relationship sites etc give women an overly high view of their SMP/MMP value – ‘look at all these men saying I’m interesting, smart and pretty…I must be wonderful, I should keep looking for my alpha, because I’m worth it.’ The fact that the guys are horrible lumpish goblins who are desperate, doesn’t matter – she has her ego boost. Works for all women whatever their looks, hypergamy means that they won’t settle for what they are really worth. I’m not criticising, men have other issues (looks over…well everything).
The mirror image (the bit you suggested) is that for the good looking guys (“alphas” etc) they can get sex from lots of women, and who needs to marry (even if marriage/cohabiting made sense legally) if you’re swamped in sex? These guys (not necessarily cads, just “lucky”) are getting their needs met without long term commitment, as a side effect they tie up women who think that they have a chance at an alpha.
So, alpha men raise their MMV (if they are interested in any LTR at all) beyond where they’re likely to meet an acceptable princess perfect.
Other men ain’t gettin’ no lurvin’, so MGTOWing and finding some better way of living becomes an option. By the time the women decide to settle, these men might well have a nice life thanks, no need to screw it up by risking marriage 2.0.
The ‘normal’ women (nothing wrong with normal), don’t notice the ‘other men’ until it is too late. The good looking ones can still ‘settle’ for someone ‘acceptable’, leaving normal women a small target population, with little time left and lowered SMP and MMP value.
Ain’t nobody happy ‘cepting the alpha men and the top women who trap early.
@deli
funny and interesting. good to hear from a knowledgeable and balanced source.
I think globleman (sic) has been making that point for years; eastern europe and Russia are showing where the west is going. Men drop out (MGTOW there seems to include alcohol, lots of it) because they’re not interested in the deal offered to good guys (corruption doesn’t help either; it’s the bad boys that have money and power) and the women are left alone, or at least unmarried. This is why there’re a lot of Russian wives available for export, including good looking women.
@Marie
Welcome to the comment threads at HUS, and I’m sorry I bummed you out.
As Brendan said, the last thing I want you to do is feel hopeless. I consider it my responsibility to report what I see happening, what’s being discussed in the media and culture, what research is being conducted, etc. I believe this is the only way to be really informed – by tapping into as many resources as possible. Not all sources are equally credible – some may not be credible at all – but in the end I think HUS presents a fairly accurate picture of the scene.
Your generation has the bad luck to come of age at a particular breaking point in the sexual marketplace. If you’re a regular reader, you know that the marriage rate is declining, and women are outpacing men both in education and earnings. Women like Kate Bolick, approaching 40 and involuntarily single, are forming “friend families” and proclaiming the beauty of being “single by choice.” I think that’s probably a healthy response to their circumstances, but I know that most women your age would prefer to avoid that outcome.
My goal here is to give you the information and tools to get what you want. I can assure you that there is no shortage of good, attractive men who will make great husbands and dads, but you won’t find one if you fail to filter out poor prospects and filter in good ones.
I don’t mean to imply that if you break up with a guy at 22, you’re unlikely to meet another man. There are tons of attractive men for you to date! Here I was addressing the reality that many women have been raised to consider marriage something one does around age 30. They go through their 20s focusing on short-term flings or trying to get with guys who are terrible relationship prospects. That’s not a good strategy. Here’s why:
1. You’re at your peak of beauty and fertility before the age of 30.
2. 30 year old men can select from women as young as their early to mid 20s.
3. Commitment-minded men have often found a life partner by the time they’re 30.
It’s not hopeless at all, but 22 is not too young to be open to meeting your life partner. If you do find a big fish, don’t throw him back because you’re too young. Kate Bolick wrote longingly about the one that got away because she didn’t feel ready at 28. He’s now happily married to someone else.
There are good guys everywhere if you will open your eyes and see them. They feel just as frustrated as you do. You don’t have to be perfect to get a great guy – you just need to be your best self and have something to offer in a relationship. Look at that list of what guys want – faithfulness, loyalty, respect, appreciation, a positive outlook. Be a woman of good character and select men of good character.
I hope you’ll be extremely sexually active in a way that makes you happy. You can have casual sex – that’s your choice. But the reality is that guys will have their own feelings and judgments about that. Most women strongly prefer sex with emotional intimacy. I’m just saying that you should stay true to yourself – if you’re a woman who wants casual sex and isn’t looking for emotional connection, go with that. You won’t be disappointed. But if you do want the emotional piece, then having casual sex is going to be disappointing at best and damaging to your mental health and reputation at worst.
First, I do not consider betas unattractive. In fact, the Whole Package guys are most likely to be betas who have their shit together. Those are the guys who are conscientious and self-disciplined. There are plenty of guys who have managed to break free of the emasculating cultural messages we send men, either via Game or some other means.
Alphas are unattainable, but in my view, they’re also generally undesirable long-term partners. They have a high rate of infidelity and divorce.
The ideal mate is a mix of alpha and beta traits – and I’ve always been of the opinion that it’s a lot easier to add alpha traits to a natural beta than beta traits to a natural alpha.
@riley
Eh, a lot of my posts are in response to what’s in the press. Lately there’s been a lot of grim talk about what the new show Girls (starting Sunday on HBO) says about the long-term effects of the Sexual Revolution. Apparently, the sex scenes in the new show are absolutely grim from a female perspective.
I hear you though – I’ll try to work in some upbeat or funny stuff soon. The thing is, this post doesn’t need to be depressing – it reveals that there are men out there with high standards for women. Most women are unaware, disinterested, or unable to rise to that level. By deciding to be one of those women, and working to get there, you’ll develop a large competitive advantage over your peers. Since the Whole Package strategy is the only one that produces great relationships – for women and men – that’s where you should focus.
@Chris in CA
I agree. Today, we spend about 17 years between puberty and marriage. That’s an awfully long time. I think that sexual activity within meaningful relationships is superior to any other alternative.
Just to be clear, I’m not advocating jumping constantly from one relationship to another, which is how serial monogamy is often understood. I’m just saying that relationships are preferable to hooking up with randos. And so is abstinence, if you are not in a relationship. That’s where self-control and future time orientation comes in.
@deti
In Nicholson’s list, these guys are mostly found in group #2. We all know that niceness alone is not going to get guys the women they desire. The #3 group has taken that nice guy core and worked it to improve himself. This is where I see Game as being the most useful tool for betas who want a relationship. Not in developing “aggressive PUA strategies” but in providing a framework where guys can afford to hold women to very high standards.
@Maggie
To be blunt, they became masculine and narcissistic. My generation was raise to eschew femininity and to refuse to let any man exert control in our life. We then raised a generation of daughters the same way. Female narcissism has been increasing sharply for the last 20 years. We’re demanding, we’re entitled, and we’re superficial. (See Sex and the City for a depiction of this.) Many young women today just aren’t going to meet the high standards of the men who can afford to be selective.
Haha! Good question. An aging player is not an attractive sight to behold. Most of them wind up marrying women from their social circles – fellow practitioners of the promiscuous lifestyle – and cheat on them.
@Susan #99
yep, now if we can just sort out the marriage / cohabiting legal issues, we’re free to sail off into the sunset. Assuming that #3 men and the women that truly commit long term find each other acceptable and find each other
Sounds more upbeat though, nothing wrong with that.
@Ramble
If you’re referring to the choices of girls like Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem I’ll agree. Feminism ushered in new social norms for both sexes. We’re reeling from the fallout.
It is true that women are the gatekeepers of sex. But it’s not simple.
As you know, I don’t believe a very large percentage of women is slutty, though the culture does depict young women that way. The virgin and prude shaming does occur among promiscuous women, and again, in the culture. But here is where Pluralistic Ignorance has a strong effect.
@Marie
I’m not suggesting you should settle by taking the first guy you can get. I’m just saying that if you do meet a great guy, don’t break up with him because you want to have fun in your 20s. The price of that choice may be very steep, as we are seeing regularly in published tales of spinster woe.
@Cooper
You do have options. You can be in group #3.
@Senior Beta
Agreed, but from a male perspective, there’s nothing stopping a guy from getting there if he’s willing to put in the work. I will say that there are probably not a lot of guys in that group before the age of 25 or so. They need maturing. That’s why I encourage women to seek and reward potential in a guy. Couples can mature together, nothing wrong with that.
@Hope
I’ve shared before that the third time my husband and I went out, he mentioned in passing that he hoped one day to have a daughter, and told me what he wanted to name her. I was completely charmed by that, and I wanted to meet his standards to be the mother of that girl. Seven years later we had her and gave her that name.
By the way, I’m assuming all went well with the ultrasound?
It’s good to have Abbot back among us
Well, Dogsquat, I have been lurking for some time now, and your opinion holds more weight with me than you probably suspect. I appreciate your empathy.
Like you, I look at the young crop of men coming up and I also have a great deal of empathy for what they have to understand. I feel bad for a lot of the young girls as well. I think our society has not told our children about the realities of interaction as we raise them, and it leaves them to learn some hard lessons, some bitter, and some sadly learned too late.
@Odds
Usually I won’t reference a study until I can read the full report and at least determine some basics, like sample size and the general methodology. This study has no PDF available online – I’ve requested it as a “journalist” so I may have more to say about it later. For now I’ve only got the abstract and Jeremy Nicholson’s interpretation.
Social science research is far from perfect, but it’s also far from useless. As it is extremely difficult to study sexual behavior accurately, we can either throw up our hands and remain completely uninformed, or investigate the body of research and see whether there are trends, patterns, etc. that emerge. I subscribe to the latter approach, and in fact, many studies confirm the correlation between sociosexual index scores and mating behaviors that signal the intention for no-strings sex. It’s hardly surprising, IMO.
Susan, nice site, by the way. First time I have posted, but many times I have been tempted. I have followed Dr. Nicholson’s postings on PT, and I saw his conversations over on MGTOW (where I also lurk) but I chose to comment here because of the environment you foster.
I have to go pick up dogs to sit for the weekend, and go target shooting with my Dad for the day. I’ll be back later tonight to check in on the chat.
@Mike M.
Great point.
Exactly! That’s the strategy. In my view, it’s the best strategy by far, and this is a good time for women to employ it – these guys are underappreciated in general in this SMP, and are therefore a “bargain.”
Agreed, I loved it.
I would just point out that what Ian and his wife both had plenty of was self-control and conscientiousness.
Just 1X:
I’m not criticising, men have other issues (looks over…well everything).
My reply:
This is why I find Ian Ironwood’s story so fantastic; there are nerdy beta types who become so delighted by their new found alpha type success that they forget the hot chicks they want wouldn’t have wanted them before, so why should they get the reformulated them?
They forget that the hot chicks they wanted so much back then could be flaky and superhypergamous; they are not looking for character, or if they want character, they want it later, in the nice guy they passed up before when they were alpha chasing. So he now gets the alphas leavings once the woman is off the carousel.
@JUtRdr
Welcome, I am so glad you decided to join us in the comments! I second what Dogsquat said, but the hopeless romantic in me wants to point out that you are only 41, and sound highly eligible. Are you sure you don’t want to date?
@pvm
we’re good, I didn’t perceive any criticism in what you wrote. I intended to just make an observation on how crap the market is for the majority of people of either persuasion
Susan…”Usually I won’t reference a study until I can read the full report and at least determine some basics, like sample size and the general methodology. This study has no PDF available online”
It is extremely irritating that media coverage of a social science study…which is often the direct result of a press release sent out by the university PR office…is rarely accompanied by any way to read the actual study (unless you subscribe to an esoteric and expensive journal or pay something like $50 for one-time access)….for research funded with public money, which most of it is, there really isn’t any excuse for this and it should be disallowed as a condition of grants.
Marie-
If you are an attractive 22 year old female and would like to “lock-down” an alpha…It can be done.
I have been a player/alpha since I began to understand what male/female relations entailed (age 14 or so). I’m now 21. I’m not claiming to be a PUA or to have a Phd in psychology, but I have been locked down once before, which I told myself I never would.
Simply put, you need to make yourself stand out from the rest of the girls that said guy is with. If he’s an alpha, he’s with more than just you hunny- regardless of what he says.
Be feminine, goal-oriented, caring, and genuinely nice.
I have dated beautiful women my whole life…The girl who locked me down was actually in the lower percentile (looks wise) than the beforementioned…But what she did- was push the above attributes.
She put those attributes before me, which showed me she cared about herself in a goal-oriented way, meaning she was genuinely optomistic about her future; which then gained my interest in her future. The only way to make sure I was part of her future- was to jump in right now. She’s going to med-school
Currently still dating and still an alpha; I may flirt with girls, but I won’t leave this one.
I know this is true of my alpha buddies as well. Hope this helps -Chase
@ david foster
Actually that statement on the Springer website is a misleading statement. It is research funded by a public university, and as I pay tuition at a public university, I have access to the journal.
Any questions about the full article you want me to answer?
INTJ….thanks, but my point wasn’t a result of particular interest in this specific study, but a more general one. Publicly-funded research needs to go on a freely-available site on the Internet (with exceptions for classified work). It is extremely irresponsible of universities to publicize SS research with the intent of influencing public policy but then to make that research available only in highly summarized form.
Btw, looking through the journal paper, I’m going to say it’s all BS. The reason being that they simply surveyed people. The problem is that people will say one thing on a survey and do another thing in different life.
I’ve enjoyed reading through this discussion and felt compelled to throw in my $.02 (probably worth less than that).
Re: Finding “Total Packages” in the sexual marketplace. In the early 90s, a cross-cultural anthropologist named David Gilmore proposed a three-part framework for considering the key functions of an idealized man from a “product design” type of perspective:
1) Procreate—the ability to co-create beautiful, healthy children; typical differentiation signal is physical attractiveness.
2) Provide—the ability to provide a comfortable, safe lifestyle for his family. Money is the obvious tool, but education is often considered a powerful provider signal under the traditional assumption that a high-quality education can be easily monetized. To some extent, sophisticated cultural experiences such as foreign travel may be considered part of an educational background.
3) Protect—simply put, the ability to destroy other men in physical fights.
Put these together and you have, in an ideal world, a handsome, well-educated badass with money. He has *ability*, he is the stuff of action films and legends (007, Batman, etc.). From a woman’s perspective, the question then becomes one of his willingness to share these qualities within the confines of an exclusive relationship. Does he have *willingness* on top of ability?
The issue is certainly made more complicated by the view that women may not give equal weighting to each asset class—some may give the looks a 1.5x weighting, say, and give a 1x to money/education and a lowly .5x to the badass protector factor. Given a dating/mating world of both aleatory and epistemic uncertainty, a cumulative-points, satisficing strategy may dominate other forms.
Let’s say that a man can be scored from 1-10 in each category. One woman may look for a man who has a total score of at least 18, without requiring any particular combination in order to get there. She hits that number and wants to take this guy and get out of the game. A different woman may insist on an 8 minimum in provision/resource type factors, and be willing to settle for anything above a 2 in the others. Yet another may attempt to demand a man who scores 8 or above in everything (there are predictable problems with this, including extreme scarcity: assume that looks, money/education, and badass factors are independent variables and assume that a woman demands a man who is in the top 5% in each category. Consider how many men who fit this description one would find in a city of 1 million people).
From the man’s perspective, he has three primary ways to signal to potential mates that he does indeed possess such qualities: Direct Display, Behavioral Correlates, and Social Proofing/3rd Party Testimonials. The more expensive (read: difficult to fake) a signal mechanism is, the more value it will generally have. Some environments will force Direct Display: a man with a poor physique will have difficulty on South Beach; a man with poor resources will have difficulty in Monaco; a man who cannot fight should probably avoid trying to pick up girls at a cage match.
Social Proofing can add mystique when cocktail-party bulletpoints are used: “I know that guy, he runs a big PE fund out of Seattle”…”former SAS, so don’t mess with him”…”climbed K2 last year”…”delightful chap—Eton and Cambridge, I think”…
A strategy based heavily on Behavioral Correlates would tell you to fake it until you make it if necessary, creating attraction by behaving like the aforementioned handsome, educated badass with money (HEB-M..?). But how would such a person behave? Because an HEB-M would simultaneously be capable of dramatic Direct Displays, this is an interesting question in itself.
Consider how the deeply-studied Halo Effect could lead to an attractive rationalization for almost any behavior associated with simultaneous high Direct Display (for illustrative purposes I will give a sensationalized example): a man with bronzed god-of-war looks is seen exiting a black Aston-Martin, wearing Charvet shirts and Lobb brogues, armed with the AMEX Centurion, etc. He begins talking to a woman at a sidewalk cafe. His attitude is one of abrasive sarcasm and aloofness. Halo Effects kick in and the woman is sexually excited by his “dominant personality.” Repeat the same scenario, but this time the man is warm and exceedingly polite. Halo Effect returns and the woman is sexually excited by his “courtly manners and gentlemanly charm.” Repeat the same scenario and the man tells stories and jokes. Halo Effect…
In other words, the peculiarities of the conversation mattered less than the context in which the conversation took place. The paradox of the many “game” strategies that rely on imitative Behavioral Correlates (as opposed to more comprehensive strategies based on self-development) is that the legit HEB-M may favor situations that have a certain pressure-cooker vibe in place to crunch pretenders and literally force Direct Displays. After all, passive, permanent signals of Direct Display work for him whether he is deliberately trying to attract mates or not. He benefits from that strong filter because he can carry the costs easily; he can manage that heavy decorative tail. His idiosyncratic behaviors on the other side of the filter line may not matter to him much because he knows that they will almost always be rationalized as attractive (he could probably kill someone, vomit on himself, etc. and an attractive narrative rationalizing the behavior would ensue).
Sorry for the long ramble! What do you all think?
Just1X @pvm
we’re good, I didn’t perceive any criticism in what you wrote. I intended to just make an observation on how crap the market is for the majority of people of either persuasion
My reply:
Hi, I didn’t see any criticism at all; I was making a similar observation as you were. I want the beta guys to win as well as the “nerdy dumpy” girls who might not get much attention from men because they are not “hot”, as they might be merely “pretty,” but who have great character and are quite attractive when you get to know them. They are not going to blossom in the casual sexual marketplace, but they will blossom as long-term girlfriends and wives. Going back to Mrs. Ian Ironwood, something tells me she would not be considered “dumpy” today.
Bastiat- Great comment.
Makes perfect sense and many PUA’s tell their “followers” to do things that they themselves do and continuously ask themselves why their clients are not attracting women.
You make a good point on venue selections when it comes to pushing certain qualities.
I do very well on the beach (athletic physique); however, would my friend (who is in a band) do well on the beach? Should I tell him to go there and do what I do because it works for me? Of course not. Nor should I expect to get the attention that he would get performing on stage.
Once again, golden little write-up.
Thank you for that.
@ Bastiat Blogger:
A+. You’re absolutely correct, the context will be the key.
I think too many guys believe that if they just learn how to spit tight game, they’d be able to land the HB10 they deserve for all their hard work. No.
Even if you have tight game, you can’t expect to land a girl looking like a cheeseburger. Looks may not matter to girls as much as they do for guys, but you can’t discount them entirely.
Look at Danny DeVito. Apparently that guy has tight game (he has to!) and his wife isn’t a 10 by any means.
I say this because I’ve recently realized that a huge attraction trigger of mine is how well-dressed a guy is. I will probably notice a well-dressed average-looking guy before I will notice a good-looking, average-dressed guy, simply because the well-dressed guy is presenting better. Seriously guys, if you have any sense of style you could probably clean up well.
What is a “well dressed” guy?
I know it sounds vague, but basically a guy who has style. I don’t mean expensive designer clothes, I mean clothes that suit and flatter your body shape.
Style implies creativity, which is probably why it’s so huge for me.
“the “vast majority of girls” are presumably who we’re fighting a culture war over”
.
In the West there was not too long ago no such war. The culture was much more manifest from nature. Happiness among women was at the best it was ever going to be, more or less. Then the feminists roared in with their pills and long-pent up “ideas.” The “war” will not end as feminists desperately hope – where women are suddenly much happier than ever living in some feminist-created fantasy. The legacy of conflict can only end when these feminists throw in the towel or women are counseled with sufficient wisdom thus causing them reject the feminist sexual propaganda.
Society pretty much got around this problem in the past by making sure all men were highly-paid and women kept out of most jobs. So even an unambitious good-natured man could make a lot of money.
Unfortunately wages stopped going up in 1973, which is 100% the government’s fault by interfering in the free market. Had they continued to rise as they should have, the average salary today would be about $90,000 a year.
Relationship problems would still exist, but they be a fraction of what they are now.
We can blame the expansion of government and laws interfering in the relationships between men and women. As always, the Law of Unintended Consequences comes into play.
JUtRdr, like Susan I think you could still get married if you want to. If there is a church with a parochial school near you, it’s worth checking out. I know several incredibly nice marriage-minded parochial school teachers in their early 30s who simply don’t know single guys.
“Unfortunately wages stopped going up in 1973″
.
and other dumb shit was happening around that time. Basically, too many people entered into the workforce thus watering down wages but it did not change where babies come from or what makes men comfortable with women.
With the talking of “locking it down,” it would be interesting to see a state-by-state breakdown of age at first marriage. Living in a red flyover state, I see lots of young people getting married right out of college. I bet there is a significant difference based on geography.
“Unfortunately wages stopped going up in 1973″
.
“and other dumb shit was happening around that time. Basically, too many people entered into the workforce thus watering down wages but it did not change where babies come from or what makes men comfortable with women.”
It certainly didn’t help when Nixon went off of the gold standard, thereby allowing the completely unconstiutional Federal Reserve Bank to destroy the value of the dollar though inflation.
If the government had stayed out of the relationships between men and women, and not passed all these destructive laws, I honestly believe the problems between men and women would be a fraction of what they are today.
“Living in a red flyover state, I see lots of young people getting married right out of college.”
Susan commented that most guys probably won’t be “ready” for a serious relationship until they’re 25. And yet ~ 30% of guys have already settled down by age 24. Most likely in less expensive, more traditional environments.
but the hopeless romantic in me wants to point out that you are only 41, and sound highly eligible. Are you sure you don’t want to date?
Great minds think alike.
I didn’t wanted to say anything because the guys support his “Buddhist philosophy” but he is young to just quit IMO, specially if he has the whole package.
I agree, Megaman. I think culturally, younger marriages are much more the norm here. My observations are also probably skewed from that of the state as a whole since my circle of friends and acquintances are mainly Christians, who I think tend to marry younger.
“If the government had stayed out of the relationships between men and women, and not passed all these destructive laws, I honestly believe the problems between men and women would be a fraction of what they are today.”
.
Politicians often create laws in order to pander for votes from interest groups. Now, what groups of folks thought these laws would benefit themselves? Are they sorry now for all the negative unexpected consequences?
mud. on. faces.
@PVW regarding “dumpy chicks”.
__________________________
Madam, please don’t forget this fact in your calculus:
When a man is in love with a woman, that woman will become beautiful to him.
Your guy doesn’t experience you visually the same way a stranger does – no kidding.
To be sure – that’s no excuse for sucking down an extra bucket of hot wings every night. Love is only so powerful, after all, and we’ve got to help it out wherever we can – but it is there and it’s on the so-called “dumpy” woman’s side.
This is a funny thing about men that’s rarely talked about. I have experienced it in the past, and so have several of my friends. One day, you’re looking at your girlfriend from across the room, and you can’t tear your eyes away. She is so pleasing to look upon, you just get stuck doing it for awhile. You wonder how the hell you landed such a quality piece of tail, too…
It’s a strange epiphany to have, especially if you’ve been with her awhile.
Now, lest I give false hope or misleading advice to others that may be reading:
Looks matter. They matter a lot, especially when trying to start a relationship. There’s no getting around that.
However, you can help yourself out in the longterm-looks department by being an excellent partner. Your guy will experience it as you being more attractive than you actually are. It’s not some rational trade off, either – it is a visceral feeling. Totally bypasses higher thought when it occurs.
As an aside, PVW, you once recommended a book to me. I promised you I’d read it over my winter break. I have failed to do so, but I have not forgotten.
JUtRdr said:
“Like you, I look at the young crop of men coming up and I also have a great deal of empathy for what they have to understand. I feel bad for a lot of the young girls as well. I think our society has not told our children about the realities of interaction as we raise them, and it leaves them to learn some hard lessons, some bitter, and some sadly learned too late.”
_________________________________________
Steel on target.
What really chaps my hide is that I/we were taught wishful thinking – pure fantasy – in place of useful information. This shit was all figured out already, until some ding-dongs decided that reality wasn’t shiny enough. Rather than do anything useful, they just made up a bunch of bullshit and called a press conference.
It’s like a modern epidemiologist deciding he hates mosquitoes, so therefore malaria comes from solar flare activity.
Incidentally, target shooting is one of my great joys in life. An hour at the range is better than a month of prescription antidepressants.
What did you shoot today?
@ SayWhaat
Oh my God, Yeeeeessssss.
This sounds right to me.
I can’t imagine “scoring” a guy like that to see if he comes up with some composite number. I got married at a younger age than I ever would have expected to, but it would have been crazy for me and my husband not to get married. We just FIT.
Guess USA should bomb its enemies with feminists – it looks like a terrible WMD completely unbound by the Hague convention to me.
Feminism the perfect biological weapon…I think there are manosphere writers that actually think all this mess was created un purpose by the ruling class to decimate our planet population and keep the lower classes controlled, so….
Exactly! That’s the strategy. In my view, it’s the best strategy by far, and this is a good time for women to employ it – these guys are underappreciated in general in this SMP, and are therefore a “bargain.”
I think we already mentioned that a thing both Hope and me have in common is that we don’t mind waiting a little longer and making a good effort to shop for a good quality item at the cheapest price, so who knows maybe is a correlation in dating matters too
WRT “dumpy chicks”, the most attractive woman I ever met was about a 7 in looks. Front of the attractiveness pack, but not ahead of it.
But she was usually well dressed…and had a personality that effervesced.
Looks are the bait on the hook. Not the hook or line.
Dogsquat:
Madam, please don’t forget this fact in your calculus:
When a man is in love with a woman, that woman will become beautiful to him.
Looks matter. They matter a lot, especially when trying to start a relationship. There’s no getting around that.
However, you can help yourself out in the longterm-looks department by being an excellent partner.
My reply:
I agree, totally! I sense that with Mr. PVW, without question, they way he looks at me at times…he is just so (I joke) besotted (uxurious), I teased him once around his family, and he was embarrased…But sweet, in the eyes of his sisters!
Tee hee…
Oh, and no problem about the book. Speaking of which, the authors are proposing a second edition, and I was asked to give some commentary by the press, it should be interesting to see what developments in US society they talk abut since the book was published in 2006…
One of the weird things about the Internet is that you read an article like this and then a few days later you find the opposite: http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-reasons-women-will-rule-future/
Is like we live in a parallel universe across the street.
@Marie:
“It’s hard enough being female already.”
Bullshit. You have it too easy to even realise how easy you have it. Think it’s hard being a girl? Try approacing. But of course you won’t do that, it’s our job to ‘man-up’ and take all the rejection risk
“Lock it down while you still can?! What if the relationship with a good guy just didn’t work out? This blog makes me paranoid and afraid of ending up alone, but I’m drawn to it still. It honestly depresses me- all the good guys are disappearing and girls who want a good guy have to be fucking amazingly perfect to get him?”
Reverse the genders in that statement, and that’s what it’s like being a guy. Welcome to our world
” … guys are either betas or alphas (the former makes them unnattractive and the latter makes them unnattainable).”
Self-created problem. If you didn’t all throw yourselves at alphas they wouldn’t be unattainable, and if you gave betas a chance once in awhile you might find that they’re not so unattractive.
“Guess USA should bomb its enemies with feminists ”
.
Are any enemies out in the middle of the Pacific? A good idea and feminists would go for it as desperate as they are for some entity to fund their global expansion.
.
But
.
Every place south of the Rio Grande River is off limits!! No good reason to contaminate paradise.
@also intj
“I think culturally, younger marriages are much more the norm here.”
I’ve observed the same phenomenon out here in CA. And not amongst young white kids. I guess some cultural groups prioritize marriage/family while others just fiddle until age 30.
“I’ve observed the same phenomenon out here in CA. And not amongst young white kids. I guess some cultural groups prioritize marriage/family while others just fiddle until age 30.”
.
Then the arbitrage for a white man is to fiddle with the “sexual expressers” at his convenience and then step into the non fiddle pool for abundant wife selection, again, at his convenience. Ah, times are good.
The women in the non-fiddle pool may not want the guy from the fiddling pool.
“The women in the non-fiddle pool may not want the guy from the fiddling pool.”
.
Ah, now wouldn’t that be refreshing…
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