Not being one of the media darlings who got advance copies of HBO’s new show Girls, I had to wait for Sunday’s premiere before weighing in. I enjoyed the first episode very much, which surprised me – I wasn’t a fan of Tiny Furniture, the film that put Lena Dunham on the map and brought her an offer to collaborate from Judd Apatow. I found Girls well written and funny – a sort of bizarre, young singles’ Curb Your Enthusiasm, coupled with a sad poignancy. Creator, writer, director and star Lena Dunham is telling the world just how effed up life is for Gen Y, with its anemic job market and crappy sex.
The first episode gives us a look at two very different couples, neither of which seems long for this world. They represent very well the contemporary diametric in sex and relationships, with its masculinized women and feminized men. Still, either or both of these couples could limp along for ages in a very meh sort of way. This is courtship by inertia.
Marnie is dating Charlie, a boy so head over heels in love that he needs a constant “fix,” touching, stroking, grinning at his beloved. At one point, the morning after Marnie has avoided him by “accidentally” falling asleep in another room while watching Mary Tyler Moore, she hands him her dirty mouthguard. He happily takes it and then signals his intent to kiss her good morning.
Comin’ atcha… Here it comes…MWAH..that was my kiss blowing up on you.
We cringe with her, and we’re not surprised when she discusses her growing repulsion with Hannah shortly afterwards.
Hannah: You literally slept in my bed to avoid him.
Marnie: I know. Hannah, I’ve turned a corner. His touch just feels like a weird uncle putting his hand on my knee at Thanksgiving.
Hannah: (Sigh.) What does it even feel like to be loved that much?
Marnie: It makes me feel like such a bitch because I can feel him being so nice to me – and yet it makes me so angry!
Hannah: I think you need to admit something to yourself, which is that you’re sick of eating him out. ‘Cause he has a vagina.
That night, Charlie tries to get kinky by proposing a little role play, and Marnie suggests it might work if he pretends to be a stranger. “Like, someone who acts completely different from you.” Ouch.
In the other corner, we find Hannah and Adam, f*ckbuddies except for the buddy part. They can’t have been at this for long, because Adam appears to observe the tattoos on Hannah’s body for the first time. Nevertheless, he’s indifferent enough to make it clear he’s already tired of her. He never texts her back, and when she stops by one day because she was “in his neighborhood” her affable eagerness provides a discomfiting contrast to his bored contempt.
Hannah: I like you so much, I don’t understand why you disappear.
Adam: What are you talking about? I’m right here.
…You modern career woman, I know what you like, you think you can just come in here and talk all that noise?
…Lie flat on your stomach, now reach back and grab your feet. Now stay in that position but take all that shit off.
Frank Bruni, writing The Bleaker Sex in the New York Times, describes the unfolding sex scene as he takes her from behind, looking bored:
“So I can just stay like this for a little while?” she asks. “Do you need me to move more?”
He needs her to intrude less. “Let’s play the quiet game,” he answers.
From the PC vantage point of a gay male who has no dog in this fight, Bruni asks, “You watch these scenes and other examples of the zeitgeist-y, early-20s heroines of “Girls” engaging in, recoiling from, mulling and mourning sex, and you think: Gloria Steinem went to the barricades for this?”
Meanwhile, in an eerie recollection of my recent description of the Goldilocks dilemma - women trying to find men worthy of both lust and attachment in just the right mix – writer Annie James channels Goldilocks in a post at The Frisky, identifying with the nice guy vs. asshole quandary.
Judging from my social media streams and a litany of text messages from friends, most of us watching “Girls” were struck by the dilemma of dating the asshole versus dating the nice guy and how neither is a viable option.
About six months ago I started seeing a sharp-mouthed, emotionally-damaged gentleman with his own serious commitment issues. He didn’t return emails or calls or make plans with me.
“What do you like about me?” I asked him. “You’re brunette and you have a vagina,” he replied.
When I asked what he expected to get out of our relationship, he told me to stop acting like a turkey. Then he shrugged.
“I don’t date girls longer than a fiscal quarter … and I don’t trust women. I’m easily bored.”
I was a little in love.
The meaner he was, the harder I fell. He once called me a retarded slut right after we had sex. On second thought, he might have still been inside me at the time. I was angry and disgusted. I stormed out of his house. I texted him some nasty expletive along with: “I should come up there and smack you.” He evenly replied: “You don’t have the code to get back in. Stop being a turkey.”
Wow, that is some tight Game right there. James (who’s in her 30s, by the way) sounds like she may have dated a certain prominent Game blogger who shall remain nameless. Predictably:
For the exact length of a fiscal quarter, he built barriers, I tried to tear them down and my cravings reached a fever pitch. At the close of four months, as promised, he informed me that we should no longer date over the post-modern Post-It note: GChat.
“It’s not like I owe you anything,” he typed, not even having the courtesy to include a sad face emoticon.
James decides to try the nice guy next:
He would meet me anywhere that was convenient for me. He texted. He emailed. He told me I was smart and pretty and that he thought every little thing that I did was awesome. He wanted to meet my friends. He wanted to meet my dog…He kissed me on the street outside of the bar [one] night. “I don’t want to play games. I really like you,” he said.
I hated him. Like another character in “Girls,” Allison Williams’ Marnie, who can’t stand her too-adoring, too perfect-seeming boyfriend, I was disgusted by his niceness. Similarly, there wasn’t an ounce of my loins that could quiver for this man. I even tried the age-old libido lubricant beer goggles in an attempt to spark some physical passion.
Five shots of Jameson later I couldn’t even fathom a cuddle. He made my skin crawl.
In an effort to understand her many failed relationships, James consulted Helen Fisher, an expert on the brain and attraction, and got a real answer:
When a person feels rejected, brain regions linked with craving, addiction and obsession become active. You can’t stop thinking about the person. You become obsessed. Someone is camping in your head and you can’t get them out. Anytime there is a real barrier in the relationship and you are not sure if you can win the relationship, it heightens the craving. The less you think you can win the person, the hotter the craving.
Of course, Fisher is describing the dopamine reward system here. I’d b willing to bet James is a DRD4 mutant. Acknowledging that she is likely to pull her hair out and become a madwoman if she keeps going for guys who call her a retarded slut, James holds out hope that the perfect man, the one who is “just right” will show up.
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7ZrBCY9ipI
I’m looking forward to the rest of the Girls season, as Lena Dunham continues to expose the reality of the schizophrenic demands women are making of men.
{ 272 comments… read them below or add one }
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And she will soon tell that perfect man how she was a complete, and dedicated, slut for a guy who thought, almost literally, nothing of her.
This is really sad. These women should never even kiss those assholes, nevermind jump into bed with men like that.
This also sort of explains why my husband had little luck in romance. He acts way closer to the nice guys than to the jerks. He didn’t play games, called me and texted me all the time, and he is really cuddly and touchy-feeling. How other girls don’t appreciate this is truly beyond my comprehension.
“The meaner he was, the harder I fell. He once called me a retarded slut right after we had sex. On second thought, he might have still been inside me at the time. I was angry and disgusted. ”
Any man, after reading that, who would want her as more than a P&D deserves to have an intervention (or pushed off a bridge).
Finding a low hypergamy, low narcissism, feminine woman almost seems like a fool’s errand. The women on that show (and the Frisky) make MGTOW palatable…
Is that new show set in NYC?
Is that new show set in NYC?
No. Manhattan is too expensive for just out of college girls like that. They are, I’m guessing, slumming it in Brooklyn in apartments that are only, say, 300K.
That is all they can afford with their 23k per year salary (and daddy’s help, of course).
@Hope
Personally, I think a guy saying “No games. I like you a lot.” is a very alpha move. It demonstrates confidence and self-respect. I think the women who can’t stand it are the ones who don’t feel worthy of the affection.
An exception is the man who says this immediately, and who pushes for commitment after the first date. A woman is going to view that as desperate behavior. But it doesn’t sound like the guy in James’ story did that.
guys who aren’t deaf hear stories all the time like that show and the columns, and from real life experiences
hopefully it’s obvious that any normal guy would rather be the asshole who gets women obsessed over him and lust after him than the boring nice guy they detest – regardless of his normal personal tendencies to be mean or be nice
any smart male will clearly see that the dark triad represents an overwhelmingly winning strategy compared to the alternatives… any other advice to guys is simply 1) not as likely to produce successful results and 2) not looking out for their best interests
@ENY
The Frisky really is terrible, and it just keeps getting worse and worse. Essays like this one are an embarrassment, and I confess it was hard for me to write about it. Seemed only fair, though. Women like this are being indulged and given a platform. I do credit Lena Dunham with portraying this accurately without any regard for the politics of it. She played an equally desperate and pathetic character in her film, incidentally, who had guys turning down her offer of no-strings sex.
talking about strategies for getting girls of course… things like mgtow have different goals
Surely there’s got to be a way to keep a woman happy without letting her take you for granted though.
Susan, I agree. Some women seem unable to receive any amount of real love and affection, perhaps because they feel undeserving. These are probably issues stemming from childhood.
GudEnuf, reading about all of the other dysfunctional people in the world make me not take my husband for granted.
We’ve been hearing for years about Gen Y having an overinflated sense of self-esteem and entitlement. I’m not so sure. It’s as if many these young women’s self-esteem is out of whack. They think they deserve to move to New York, work at a cool, creative job that doesn’t pay enough to live on while getting by on the bank of Mom and Dad.
Yet, these bright, creative young women show no respect for themselves by letting men treat them like dirt, far worse than young women in previous generations did. It’s sounds like low self-esteem.
Fortunately, most young women I know are not like this.
“I don’t date girls longer than a fiscal quarter … and I don’t trust women. I’m easily bored.”
I was a little in love.”
VS
“He kissed me on the street outside of the bar [one] night. “I don’t want to play games. I really like you,” he said.
I hated him.”
“neither is a viable option.”
Fried-ice, anyone?
I think the message is clear to any male reading this (that is, any male who is unfamiliar with game – and there are a lot of them about – esp. Gen Y males).
You need to select a woman who demonstrates appreciation for you from the start. Don’t compromise on that. I really don’t think Ms. James is representative of all women, though I acknowledge there are many like her. All the more reason for men to have high standards, as Jeremy Nicholson pointed out in the male mating strategies post.
>>” They think they deserve to move to New York, work at a cool, creative job that doesn’t pay enough to live on while getting by on the bank of Mom and Dad.”
At risk of being judged, I’m going to share my own Gen Y cautionary tale.
Basically, I got an MA in a useless liberal arts subject. It was at a good school, and I got good grades. I knew that jobs in my field were super competitive, but I figured that at the very least I’d be able to find some sort of low-level office or receptionist job or something. (Maybe it was a stupid assumption, but nobody told me otherwise.) It’s not like I’m not expecting a “cool creative job” or anything. Just somebody who’s willing to pay me to staple papers together answer phones or photocopy things or something. So far I haven’t had any luck though. I’m also in the UK, where the recession is really bad. It’s not a pleasant process, and constantly reading about how “spoilt” and “entitled” we all are doesn’t help.
I have a lot of friends who are in the same boat as me at least, so at least I know it’s not just me. I recently signed up for some IT courses though, so hopefully I’ll be able to finish those and maybe find a low-level STEM job.
@Abaddon
… your seriously going to make me ask?
If I have to guess – ‘be mean, keep her kean.’
Funniest thing about that article from Bruni is all of the liberal men and women in the comments blaming the effects of pornography on “misogyny” and hypocrisy when we all know that patriarchal societies are sexually conservative and disdain porn, masturbation, adultery, homosexuality, etc. Have these people from New York, San Francisco, Portland, Oregon and other places ever meet a misogynist not fabricated out of their women’s studies minds? Hint: Sexists aren’t ecstatic about women’s sexual liberation. They pretty much hate porn and don’t use it.
Sorry to hear that Emily. :/ For myself, I got an undergraduate degree in a useless liberal arts subject, but throughout college I worked in the Web field, and I got a starter job right out of college with a firm that had big-named clients due to some self-taught skills which were cutting edge at the time. Since then I’ve been doing decently by working for larger places.
Gen Y is really all about the tech sector, and just about everything is Web-based now. Even my husband is learning ASP.NET and C#, and he has a MS in applied mathematics. He says he has an advantage because with the front-end programming he can just come to me. I guess I got lucky with the field I was interested in and chose.
@emily
If someone would have told you do you think you would have listened or responded “I’m following my dream?” Most of the people to whom I suggest that they might want to go into a field with future employment options give me the “Follow my dream” response.
“It’s not like I’m not expecting a “cool creative job” or anything. Just somebody who’s willing to pay me to staple papers together answer phones or photocopy things or something.”
>> “If someone would have told you do you think you would have listened or responded “I’m following my dream?” ”
If I knew that there would be literally NO JOBS, then I wouldn’t have done it. Like I said, I knew there were very few jobs in my field. But Universities are always hosting information nights etc. talking about how employers actually LOVE liberal arts students (for real), so I assumed that I’d always have the option of finding a job in an unrelated field.
Emily, your best bet is to try for internships and get experience. Companies nowadays want experience plus degree, because there are so many people looking for work.
Funny story.
In uni during undergrad I lived with 5 girls.
One of them was an English (insert more useless things here) major.
We got into it one night, me saying she would never have a job and that lib. arts departments were shrinking everywhere.
She seriously and really believed that:
a) lib. arts was the future of the world
b) as an English major she would be able to work up to a CEO position of a nonprofit by 30
c) have 3 kids while at it
I was legitimately stunned. I don’t know what lies they tell kids who like English but heres the real deal.
If you can speak it and write it thats probably more than enough.
No one gives a fuck if you can recite Hamlet line-by-line and describe the metaphor to some such and such a thing.
P.S She has 3 kids, her and hubby (also an English lit. major) plan to own their own Tim Hortons someday when they can save their money up.
P.S.S They both work at Tim Hortons.
P.S.S.S I know I’m an ass but theres comes a certain point where saying I told you so becomes pointless. Now I just hang my head in shame.
This new show is going to be crazy! I think that Girls will be my new favorite, I just can’t wait for the next episode. I have totally assured by the pilot.
@Cooper
Fried ice or baked alaska.
Its all about your mindset.
$300K doesn’t even get you a closet in the UMC/bobo parts of Brooklyn these days.
As personal anecdote.
Same girls in uni (different girl) I very distinctly remember saying “he is just to nice”, “I feel horrible for thinking he is too nice.”
Are women pressured to like nice guys? (Similar to the fat acceptance movement) I can’t think of why else she would feel guilty.
On a side note, they did have a happy ending. They talked about it and he manned up or something with her. Whatever it was they have rug rats crawling around now.
@Lokland
“Are women pressured to like nice guys?”
I think the guilt comes from realizing that they actually don’t like what they say they wanted.
Girls first gets burnt by alpha > declares she will solely seek ‘nice guys’ > discovers she likes him even less than the jerk > feels bad for disliking the guy for what being what she specifically chose him for.
@Emily
GBFM was tickled pink by your squeal of delight and reported it at Heartiste. 42 people have clicked through to your comment so far, lol.
Lokland,
Most girls will also try to discourage their friends from dating jerks. There’s nothing more annoying than having to listen to your friend complain over and over again about the same douchebag.
I think it’s one of those social pressure vs. biological urges things.
That being said, some girls require more “alpha” than others.
@Abaddon
All of society needs to swallow the red pill. We can’t tear this down and rebuild it until everyone has woken up. I like the show, because Lena Dunham has soooooo swallowed it herself, and she’s telling it like it is. I’d be willing to bet she is entirely unacquainted with Game (or just minimally acquainted). If she knows what it is, she should endorse it because a Charlie with Game is going to be a heck of a lot more relationship-worthy than Adam ever could be. I really did wince when she handed him her funky night guard!
@Emily
I’ve seen friends get together and tell a girl they won’t hear another word about so-and-so, she’s on her own. It doesn’t necessarily “cure” the girl, but at least they stop giving positive reinforcement, and they don’t have to hear it anymore.
Susan,
That’s hilarious. I’m very amused that he’s flattered, but also slightly horrified to be mentioned at Heartiste. I refrain from commenting at the more “manly” Manosphere blogs for a reason. : P
Also, I would find GBFM hilarious even if I didn’t think that he was secretly Roissy/Heartiste haha.
Whenever I read GBFM’s posts, I always imagine them in this voice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe7AG7mNn1s
Re: GBFM’s posts
Whenever he writes “lzozozlzolzolzlozoz,” which he does A LOT, I always wonder is he laughing, or sleeping? haha
Re: “lzozozlzolzolzlozoz”
I imagine a narcolpetic laughing out loud, coming in and out of zzzzzzs.
Why would the perfect man want to be with a woman who lets herself get disrespected like that?
Sort of like the “I wouldn’t want to be in any religion that would have me.”
That “Smack the pony/The perfect guy” video was quite funny.
It’s not really pressure, I would say. It’s more like encouragement from our friends and family to date “nice guys”.
There have been a few times that I have been on a date with a guy, didn’t really feel attracted to him afterwards, and told my friends about it. Some of my friends have encouraged me to continue dating the guy anyway. They thought that perhaps the attraction would spark later, but their logic has never worked with me.
For me personally, I like a man to have an “edge” about himself. He doesn’t have to be a full blown bad boy asshole, but he needs some edge to him. An edge is sexy in a man, in my opinion, and men who lack it have a brotherly feel to them.
@Hope:
“He didn’t play games, called me and texted me all the time, and he is really cuddly and touchy-feeling. How other girls don’t appreciate this is truly beyond my comprehension.”
Revealed preference (a very powerful concept). The reality is that for a large chunk of girls, they actually don’t really appreciate it or at least, it’s low on their “checklist” of priorities.
“This also sort of explains why my husband had little luck in romance”. I can empathize. It took me a while to find someone who actually appreciated the more “beta qualities” in a guy.
Susan, what’s wrong with the nightguard thing? If the girl is in love with him then it would seem like a sweet gesture. The problem is that the girl was never in love with the boyfriend. People in love do all kinds of stuff and don’t think it’s gross.
Full disclosure: I once washed my husband’s retainer for him because he hadn’t cleaned it in forever. I also don’t mind his morning breath. I kiss him all the time while he still has his retainer in, so maybe I’m just as “beta” as the sappy fella.
@Maggie
That’s an incredibly perceptive comment. I say that because you totally anticipated Lena Dunham’s remark in a recent interview. She said that her character Hannah is typical of most 24 yo women today, in that she has “total self-confidence and no self-worth.” It sounds to me like we’ve raised a generation of both men and women who are trying to fake it till they make it.
@Emily
I wish I had not gone to that link! Now I’ve got that voice stuck in my head.
This is a widespread (no pun) phenomenon among women. It’s ironic, given the way we’ve been propping up female self-esteem in the schools for the last 20 years. Obviously, self-esteem is not generated by “Participant” trophies, or by being told you’re better than men.
This cracked me up. I’d love to see a video of that.
@Hope
This is a woman who’s lost attraction for her bf, and after avoiding sleeping with him, she greets him in the kitchen in the morning by handing him her dirty nightguard. I think it’s rude on her part. It just rubbed me the wrong way.
I’m not one to share a toothbrush or make out before brushing my teeth, but on the other hand I have no problem with the idea of caring for my husband if he were ill, including any and all bodily functions. I guess I require extenuating circumstances
Susan, I get that, but from his perspective she probably just fell asleep on the couch accidentally. I think it portrays her in a worse light than the boyfriend.
But, of course, most girls watching the show won’t see it that way. They won’t see the error of her ways and how she’s not being honest and forthright. They’ll just think he’s an “ugly boyfriend” who isn’t reading her mind and giving her tingles.
@ Maggie
“Letting” men treat them like dirt is the wrong way of putting it. “Wanting men who treat them like dirt” would be more accurate.
Honestly, while I agree that a lot of girls in my generation lack a meaningful sense of self-worth, I don’t think that’s the root cause of their preferences. Look at Annie James’ story about the guy she was in love with, who called her a retarded slut. Women aren’t rejecting nice guys because they feel like they don’t deserve to be treated well, it’s because they value a guy can afford to treat them poorly more than they value good treatment. (I tried to find a better way to write that and failed, so best of luck parsing that sentence).
@ Susan
On paper, I’d agree, it’s brash and open. However, in practice that’s at most a late-game move (say, you’ve been married for ten years). It’s an apocalypse opener for feelings, and I just can’t envision that working until you’ve already sealed the deal. It’s a late-relationship-game alpha move – not something I’d want any random reader to pick up and try. But hey, I could be wrong.
@ Ramble
That, right there, is the red pill in one sentence. That idea, in those words or others, causes the beta in men to die a little. So, for the sake of my own sanity (some of us actually like treating people well), and for those women who actually like their men to have some comfort-traits, it would be prudent to keep women like that to a minimum. How many guys are going to see that article, or one like it, and turn into douchebags?
I’m going to give it a few years of trying to find the balance, but I’m curious as to whether the Goldilocks “just right” guy gets the same kind of devotion (or, more narrowly, the same kind of sex) as the pure-alpha douchebags.
Wow, this is all really, really… unvarnished. I truly find this more damning than anything Roissy ever wrote. Scary stuff.
ExNewYorker, actually it’s worse than that. Some girls (not saying all) not only don’t appreciate it, but are actively repulsed by good male behavior.
Incidentally, they also tend to be the “hottest” girls (at least the visibly popular girls), so guys have all the incentives to be jerks to try to attract them.
This show makes me sad.
“total self-confidence and no self-worth.”
That says it all, doesn’t it? And IME, it is typical of young people that age–a lot of self-confidence based on “accomplishments” that disappears when the praise does, little sense of inherent human dignity. The result of a lot of poor parenting by my generation, I suppose.
SW, you are ruining my marriage. I was watching the “Smack the Pony” clip with DH looking over my shoulder . He didn’t realize that it was a comedy show, muttered, “Oh, Jesus Christ!” and retreated to the basement.
“I don’t want to play games. I really like you,” is not alpha at all. Giving a woman this kind of validation is a very quick way to get her to go away…
On the other hand, “stop being a turkey” is hilarious. I don’t even know what he means, but it makes me laugh.
@J
Uh oh! Sorry! He’s got a good sense of humor, though, I’m sure he’ll take it in stride.
BTW, the actress in that video was in Bridget Jones – a favorite movie of mine.
So much sex, so little love.
This is unfathomable to me: Where are these girls’ self-respect? How can they stay in the same room– much less share their body– with someone who holds them in such contempt? This is beyond sad.
(BTW, I believe this hurts the guys, too. Every one of these encounters chips away at their decency, integrity and a belief of goodness in the world. How can you respect yourself when you are holding another human being in contempt, while using them for self-gratification?)
Must cleanse palate with cat videos with kitty DJs on the turntables:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59ZYrB8Ws7Y
$300K doesn’t even get you a closet in the UMC/bobo parts of Brooklyn these days.
Escoffier, I did say “slumming” it.
@Susan
Gotta say I LOL’d when she said something about him getting a condom and he yelled back “I’ll consider it!!”. Dick Move… This show shows it like it is, though- seems hilariously realistic. I might even have to cue this up on demand.
@Hope
Many of us have learned to save the “good boy” nonsense for mom. And it’s not always the super hot girls who like jerks…just the ones who get the most attention (read: biggest egos). Ask around- you’ll find that the girls one or two notches above average get the most attention of all because that’s what most dudes think they can pull (cue the feeding frenzy).
We’ve discussed this before. The average girl’s threshold for dominance is so high, that in some cases, anything less than a dick move is like sending chocolates. Ok, it’s not that bad all the time, but you get the point.
@Maggie, Susan
“We’ve been hearing for years about Gen Y having an overinflated sense of self-esteem and entitlement. I’m not so sure. It’s as if many these young women’s self-esteem is out of whack.
That’s an incredibly perceptive comment. I say that because you totally anticipated Lena Dunham’s remark in a recent interview. She said that her character Hannah is typical of most 24 yo women today, in that she has “total self-confidence and no self-worth.” It sounds to me like we’ve raised a generation of both men and women who are trying to fake it till they make it.”
——————–
I almost wonder… if there is a tie-in with narcissism? Narcissists have a “false self” with abnormally high sense of self-confidence and entitlement to cover up their “true self,” who is abysmally low in self-worth and self-respect. And pathetically dependent on NS (narcissistic supply, i.e. attention, good or bad).
It’s almost like all the trophies, awards and perfectly posed FB photos have set them up to fail: If they try to venture out in the real world on their own merits, they’ll be crushed. It’s the emotional equivalent of Chinese footbinding.
A mix of those two…. Can you mix oil and water? Fire and ice? Nice concept, as long as you don’t actually have to, you know, do it. Or be it. Or describe it.
BTW. Can somebody give some examples of “edge” that aren’t douchebagging it?
Guys starting out dating know some things. They may not be correct things. As I said on another thread, you won’t believe how us early boomers were taught by all and sundry to be “nice” to women.
But along with that is Bobby Brown and Rihanna–and the tweeters who claim they wouldn’t mind being punched in the mouth by this clown. And Charlie Sheen. And possibly some direct exposure to the “don’t be a turkey” guy and his never-fail quarterly punching bag.
You are not Lena’s mother, so will not be able to really answer this question, but…
Do you think that she will be completely honest about the fact that she could move to Des Moines, or Grand Forks, or a few dozen other places, and live a pretty good life and find, kind, hard working, decent men? And, that she basically, needs to be financed to keep living her current life which she apparently hates/regrets?
Taking the Red Pill (there really should be a different color for girls, like, the Brown Pill…something unfashionable) means that you also know that large cities are terrible places to start a family.
@Ramble
Pink pill? Scarlet pill?
@BroHamlet
This seems to be the real sticking point: if a woman wants her partner to be masterful yet kind, she should keep in mind that these qualities will always be defined in relation to the kind of energy she herself puts out. The more masculinized and agressive she is, the more firepower will be needed in reponse to maintain an impression of alpha solidity – and the less room there will be for genuine acts of kindness.
If she is gentle and sweet-tempered, achieving a kind of dominant poise in her presence will require considerably less effort – and therefore easily coexist with considerate gestures. It’s in no way contradictory but requires a certain equilibrium.
If being alpha in her company = simply taking confident initiatives in everyday life, then being kind and masterful at the same time is doable. If being masterful towards her requires going nuclear and treating her like garbage, there is no room for niceness, mathematically speaking.
A high treshold for dominance in a woman either leads to nice-guy capitulation or to an all-out arms race.
@BroHamlet
I too LOL’d at that sex scene. Oy. He negged her left and right in the first episode. It’s worth watching if you get HBO.
@SW
False alarm. I went downstairs to throw a load of towels in the washer and he was happily mixing some music that he recorded for friends over the weekend.
That’s some funny stuff. I clicked through to Youtube and watched some more bits. The lesbian love scene is hysterical.
Pink pill? Scarlet pill?
No, Brown.
I know that you were being cute, and it was. But, I was being serious. One of the main ideas behind the (metaphoric) Red Pill is that it is difficult to swallow. That, you do not want to take it because you will learn the truth.
A pink pill sounds fun and girly.
The pill should be speckled brown. And, the kind of brown you get when you mix green and red food. Unappetizing.
Alright, I am taking this too seriously.
@Emily
“It’s not a pleasant process, and constantly reading about how “spoilt” and “entitled” we all are doesn’t help.
I have a lot of friends who are in the same boat as me at least, so at least I know it’s not just me. I recently signed up for some IT courses though, so hopefully I’ll be able to finish those and maybe find a low-level STEM job.”
——————-
Hey Emily!
I’m so sorry to hear about your difficulties. So many talented people are really having a tough time of it right now. Your comments always seem really neat, so it’s hard to consider you “spoiled” or “entitled”!
This is just a suggestion– Have you considered doing a bit of freelancing on the side for extra money? There’s all kinds of things you can do in the meanwhile. (I am stupid about computers –can send cat videos and email, that’s it!– so I focused on other stuff.) My friend cleans houses, another friend walks dogs. Another friend teaches language lessons and tutors kids and adults.
After lending my clothes for the (seemingly) millionth time, an acquaintance offered to pay me to help her find an outfit that flattered her. She was really happy, so she spread the word. I also started an eBay store to get rid of my old stuff. It was easy and kept my closet clean.
You sound so bright that I’m sure you will make things work out, Emily.
Kindest regards–
BTW, I believe this hurts the guys, too. Every one of these encounters chips away at their decency, integrity and a belief of goodness in the world. How can you respect yourself when you are holding another human being in contempt, while using them for self-gratification?)
Obviously, you can’t. Oddly, I felt very sorry for the Adam character. For all the dick moves, he was still an insecure former fat boy living off his nana’s money with little sense of direction. I’d hate to have my own sons grow up like that.
It’s almost like all the trophies, awards and perfectly posed FB photos have set them up to fail: If they try to venture out in the real world on their own merits, they’ll be crushed. It’s the emotional equivalent of Chinese footbinding.
Great observation. I know many teens in my own neighborhood who have a room full of trophys and a weekly appointment with a therapist. And their a$$hole parents can figure out why.
Re: the sex scene
I laughed when she wouldn’t stop talking, and he says “let’s play the ‘silent game’”
The speech that the guy cooking opium on the stove told about the uselessness of college was pretty epic, I thought.
@Ramble
I see your point, sir. How about puce pill? Puce = like the purple you see in a bruise. Off putting, for sure. (And alliterative
)
The red and green = brown color sounds like when we mixed all the kinds of soda together. We called it “Suicide Punch.”
@J (#67)
Hey J!
Thanks for the kind words about my observation! 8)
It’s funny: I remember being so ticked off at the time by my parents’ refusal to grant a centimeter of moral ground to the “self-esteem” movement. I was so jealous of my friends’ parents who coddled them and told them every finger-painting was a Picasso! If I only was able to see into the future…
(My parents were nice but were brought up with Spartan discipline and that kind of stuff just does. not. wash. out. I remember asking my mom why she was so sparing with praise, unlike my friends’ mothers. She said, That’s because when I tell you you did something really well, you’ll know it’s true.)
It’s funny: I remember being so ticked off at the time by my parents’ refusal to grant a centimeter of moral ground to the “self-esteem” movement. I was so jealous of my friends’ parents who coddled them and told them every finger-painting was a Picasso! If I only was able to see into the future.
This nonsense reached its peak while I was working in adolescent mental health. I recall saying in a staff meeting that if everyone is special, then no one is special. I got shouted down. I was also against the constant giving of “rewards.” The latest research on that says it robs kids of intrinsic motivation–just like I said it would.
@reformedmalenerd
Yup. It’s worth noting that self-knowledge is a big part of this. Most girls 20-35 don’t have this, because it’s not required of them (for reasons that we don’t need to rehash). Sometimes you have to learn the hard way, and some of them are, but very few, and very slowly. Too bad, but that’s what being an adult is.
Again, self-knowledge. But you know what, if she’s really that hard up to be treated like garbage, she’ll learn what’s up, or stay in a fog and be miserable. At some point, life will force you to learn, but it might be too late to do much about it.
J, that’s interesting. I was raised by criticism and a mentality of scarcity. I was constantly compared to nicer kids, prettier girls, more academically accomplished students, etc. Maybe that helped me more than I knew.
@J (#71)
*high fives J*
J, you sound like such a great mom to your boys. Now all we need to do is clone you to replace the too-permissive parents.
“I was also against the constant giving of “rewards.” The latest research on that says it robs kids of intrinsic motivation–just like I said it would.”
Y’know my dad totally agreed with that as well. He told me, later, that he believed it would be insulting a person’s intelligence and self-respect if they had to be awarded a prize for doing what they were supposed to do in the first place! The reward is the skill gained, the self-discipline acquired.
PS: Interestingly, my dad asked for Amy Chua’s (Tiger Mom’s) entire oeurve for Christmas. My sister and I keep threatening to write a counterpoint: “Dinosaur Dad” for his old-school parenting techniques.
@Hope
Hi Hope!
If you wouldn’t feel uncomfortable, how did your mom word this? Did it work for you?
I wonder because my grandmother (after my mom died) believed VERY STRONGLY in criticism and it hurt way more than it helped. (She was also pretty much un-please-able, at least as far as I was concerned!)
@ Hope
I always hated when my mom compared me to other kids. Luckily she didn’t do it that much. I was fine with criticism, but it was really annoying when she would point out one good thing in some kid without noticing all the bad things in him.
@Susan
I’m sorry for being a “comment hog” and promise to pipe down after this:
Did you realize that all the girls in this show are from super-prominent NYC families? I think some of the press is these are super-privileged girls, tons of connections, playing at struggling on TV.
Lena Dunham = daughter of Laurie Simmons (photographer & performance artist)
Allison Williams = daughter of NBC’s Brian Williams
Zosia Mamet = daughter of David Mamet, arguably the greatest playwright of the 20th century
Jemima Kirke = daughter of Simon Kirke (Bad Company)
@Hope
I think both fulsome praise and unremitting comparison and criticism can be bad for kids. It’s always good to praise effort because effort is something a kid can control and kids need to see the link between effort and success. It’s less effective to praise things that are luck of the draw like looks, IQ, and talents. Praise also has to be realistic and precise. “That was the best piano solo ever!” is crap. The kid knows it’s not true. “You hit a couple of wrong notes, but you covered nicely.” or “Your tempo and dynamics were spot on.” are good examples of realistic praise. “You should have practiced the left hand part more.” is valid feedback. “Johnny is a better musician than you are.”–not so much.
@Jackie
J, you sound like such a great mom to your boys. with my kisNow all we need to do is clone you to replace the too-permissive parents.
Thanks, Jackie. I really try my hardest with my kids. I can’t tell you how important to me it is to raise them to be well-adjusted, independent, strong, and resilient. It’s a real goal, and I’ve given a lot of thought as to how to achieve it. I don’t parent randomly. I’m not an overwhelmingly strict mom, but I don’t hover or coddle either. And my husband and I try to live by our principles and pass that on to the kids. It’s a balancing act.
Your dad sounds like no slouch himself. I totally agree with this: “it would be insulting a person’s intelligence and self-respect if they had to be awarded a prize for doing what they were supposed to do in the first place! The reward is the skill gained, the self-discipline acquired.” What’s better for a kid to have? The sense of confidence that comes from a job well done or some piece of crap prize?
The entire dating scene and self esteem is out of whack these days.
As a guy (and when I was dating for the first time after a divorce), I was continually reading about how to ‘Game’ women, using all sorts of false dating techniques. It was so NOT me that I decided to give up on all that rubbish. I’m sure other guys found results but those results are founded in lies.
That said, these techniques create an illusion within both men and women that dating is a game. It shouldn’t be.
It’s a pity TV Shows don’t cater for responsible and sensible dating – I’m sure they could. We could all come down to earth and reality and it’s meant to be in a transparent relationship.
Being nice is not only counterproductive, it’s becoming deadly.
Today, a chick jammed her lit cigarette into my arm after I politely asked her for directions to a local music venue. She was with a friend, and they both laughed after the incident. It left a pretty nasty mark…
He acts way closer to the nice guys than to the jerks. He didn’t play games, called me and texted me all the time, and he is really cuddly and touchy-feeling. How other girls don’t appreciate this is truly beyond my comprehension.
This oh so much. The fact that my husband never ever let me down when he promised something was like lube to my loins.
Do you like gambling? The whole rejection makes you want something more sounds a lot like some studies they did in gamblers that showed that they actually prefer losing because it gives them an excuse to keep playing. I don’t like gambling and feeling rejected is akin to medieval torture so no I never felt compelled or more attracted to a guy that rejected me and trust me this weren’t one or two but . I pretty much went back to my tiny corner pink side of the mind and prayed that a good man will finally like me back one day.
Full disclosure: I once washed my husband’s retainer for him because he hadn’t cleaned it in forever. I also don’t mind his morning breath. I kiss him all the time while he still has his retainer in, so maybe I’m just as “beta” as the sappy fella.
Pfftt not disgusting enough I used to keep my husband’s dirty underwear from visit to visit to my country I did eventually washed them but I loved to sleep with them under my pillow were I could smell it and pretend he was still sleeping with me…do I win?
@ Anacaona
Um…………
That’s really gross, but I can appreciate the dedication.
The levels of dedication from some of the women on here never ceases to astound me.
That’s really gross, but I can appreciate the dedication.
Heh thanks!
J, that’s interesting. I was raised by criticism and a mentality of scarcity. I was constantly compared to nicer kids, prettier girls, more academically accomplished students, etc. Maybe that helped me more than I knew.
You remember my sociopath of a brother? Guess what kid got all the praise for every single little thing he did even though he wouldn’t obey or do any of the rest of his obligations (that in my house were pretty much don’t get in trouble and study) I’m not going to be a praising mother for the sake of praising for sure.
@reformedmalenerd
You might be on to something. My most successful relationships have been with women who started college but didn’t finish. I’ve always called this smart but not bitchy.
Perhaps you’re closer in they are just more feminine and thus my beta self can be more manly relative to them than I can career girl types.
As for James, after watching my mother sit in a hospital for a couple of days as my father slipped away I want to be mad. I want to say that she doesn’t deserve a male who balances both sets of traits and deserves every P&D she gets from some douchebag asshole.
But I can’t. I can only be sad that a man like my father couldn’t find a woman like my mother, who will love and respect him for nearly 50 years up to the very end.
@Ana
Oh, you just gave up and you should keep getting rejected until approaching and getting rejected gets easy.
Oh, you just gave up and you should keep getting rejected until approaching and getting rejected gets easy.
Heh do you remember that I’m a girl? :p
I wanted to share something this is something a commenter called Dreadpiratkevin said at Athol’s:
When I look at my wife, I don’t just see her as she is now -40ish, chubby and slightly graying, I see the beautiful young woman I feel madly in love with 25 years ago, I see the woman who has borne me 5 incredible children and then given her life over to staying home and not only raising them, but homeschooling them into amazing people. I see the woman who stood by be through job losses and business failures, home foreclosures and near bankruptcy. I see the first person I want to tell about the successes in my life and the last person I want to hurt. I see the only person whose companionship will make growing old tolerable. Compared to that a little chub is nothing, and no other woman, no matter her sex rank is of any interest to me.
THIS is what women should be having as a life goal, instead of hot Alpha’s whose major trait is that they turn them on. This is the sort of things that if we as society recognize as “status” would fix all the problems of the SMV and hypergamy faster than PUA’s, Marriage strike, MGTOW or artificial wombs, surrogacy would…this is the real deal, YMMV.
@Ana
I know it’s the real deal. I was a witness to some very powerful expression of it the past week.
I just think almost no one cares about it anymore and of those who did all but a tiny handful pair off early and leave the rest of us to rot.
I know it’s the real deal. I was a witness to some very powerful expression of it the past week.
Care to share?
I just think almost no one cares about it anymore and of those who did all but a tiny handful pair off early and leave the rest of us to rot.
When the things I read here make me panic about the future of my unborn child (ren) my husband reminds me that the majority of people that made it, are out there too busy living their lives and fighting the good fight to post the “sad history of their lives” on the internet. So I can see that, YMMV.
J: “I think both fulsome praise and unremitting comparison and criticism can be bad for kids. It’s always good to praise effort because effort is something a kid can control and kids need to see the link between effort and success. It’s less effective to praise things that are luck of the draw like looks, IQ, and talents. Praise also has to be realistic and precise. “That was the best piano solo ever!” is crap. The kid knows it’s not true. “You hit a couple of wrong notes, but you covered nicely.” or “Your tempo and dynamics were spot on.” are good examples of realistic praise. “You should have practiced the left hand part more.” is valid feedback. “Johnny is a better musician than you are.”–not so much.”
Some reason, and I tend to agree, that the brain processes everything as positives, so that is better to say what someone should do than what they should not do. So the best criticism is to say what someone is doing right and also what that person should do in the areas when that person is making mistakes, without mentioning the mistakes and saying “don’t make mistakes”.
But what is most important is leading by example. The example set by the leader/teacher/parent gives a clear limitation of what the subordinate/student/child can learn. A good leader/teacher/parent acknowledges and rejoices when a subordinate/student/child goes beyond what they have taught by example, and has a very clear and self critical idea of the example he/she is giving. “Do as I say, not as I do” has never yielded any good results.
My Indian teacher often tells the story of some parents coming to their guru to ask him to help their child get rid of his addiction to candy. The guru tells them to come again in three months. After three months the guru instructs the child and the parents ask why he could not have done that three months ago. The guru responds “Three months ago I was also addicted to candy and I had to learn how to get rid of the addicition to be able to teach how”.
If you need to teach something that has always come easy to you it might be necessary to send a struggling student to another teacher who has had it much more difficult to learn that skill, but who now has learned it fully.
Hope, Jackie,
Thank you for your advice and support.
I actually have a job interview today. At this point I’ve gone to quite a few interviews, so I don’t want to get my hopes up. But you never know…
Herb, I hope you and yours are doing as well as they can be.
By being there, you gave your dad a great gift.
That’s a good question. Edge seems like nothing more than a euphemism for antisocial behavior. The opposite of agreeable or amiable. How odd to list that as a requirement for attraction.
The Nice Guy who tried game, his results and the biggest problem encountered
I’m Nice Men – 11/28/10
http://www.the1585.com/imnicemen.htm
Very fun post with meaning, it just keeps getting better as you read thorugh it. And it’s waaay relevant to the discussion here.
A taster, or two
“But for the last three weeks, I’ve been regularly seeing a girl that I really like. And—for the first time in any relationship—I have from the very beginning avoided ever saying insecure things in front of her, right down to never asking her advice about what I should wear or what kind of haircut I should get. I want to ask her all those things. Hell, I want to ask her every five minutes whether she really likes me and then not believe her when she says yes. I just don’t do it. Instead, I slap her on the ass and then lean against something. ”
“Now you’re probably thinking that it didn’t work. You’re expecting me to say that I refrained from saying insecure stuff, but girls didn’t like me any better—either because they could still magically tell I was insecure somehow, or because it turns out that girls look deeper than that and aren’t really as shallow as I was making them out to be. But that’s not it either. Girls—and, to be fair, people in general—really are as shallow as I was making them out to be, and the simple practice of never saying insecure things worked amazingly well. To be perfectly honest, I had sex with more women this past September and October than during any year-long stretch of my life before, or all four years of college. And I didn’t even go out that much. So without becoming boorish here, let it be established that never saying insecure things really does work, and is incredibly easy. Those things are not the problem.
The problem is that, as far as I can tell, I no longer” – go read the post! He does say what the problem is and it’s hilarious
@Ramble
First, I’m not sure if you’re asking about Lena Dunham or the character Hannah. Lena Dunham is not being financed to live a life she hates – just the opposite.
I don’t think that is a question she would ever ask herself, or something she would consider for a nanosecond. Lena Dunham is the daughter of two professional artists, and grew up in a Tribeca loft. She’s obviously talented, and NYC is the vehicle for her talent. It’s a huge part of her identity. It’s like suggesting that Woody Allen might have been happy in Poughkeepsie. I think the same reasoning would apply to Hannah. My guess is that she’d rather be single in NYC than married in Fargo.
Dunham is poking fun at her own generation here. She’s commenting on the job market, but more importantly she portrays the selfish complacency of Hannah. The episode is largely dedicated to figuring out how to get back on her parents’ payroll – she’s very manipulative and it’s funny.
One of the reasons I like the show is that Dunham has a real ability to laugh at herself. Much of the joke is at her expense.
@reformedmalenerd
That’s a great point. I hadn’t thought of it in precisely that way before, but it makes sense that masculinization would be directly predictive of hypergamy and the appetite for dominance.
I strikes me that some women are looking for King Kong – a bizarre retreat to our prehistoric origins.
@J
I felt that too. At one point, she asks him how the production of his play is going and he says something like, “We’re not gonna do it. That guy is a dick.” That’s obviously a huge disappointment but he can’t acknowledge that. He also calls his parents buffoons – he’s clearly an unhappy guy.
That was funny. I am really pleasantly surprised. All the hype leading up to this show made me certain I’d hate it – it sounded like Sex and the City, only worse! Instead, it’s the opposite – because it’s honest. The fact that several guys here enjoyed aspects of it proves that it’s got a much wider potential audience.
I wouldn’t say that’s necessarily true. For example, I was the nice looking, clean cut, boy next door type most of my life.
When it became clear I needed more of an edge, I buzzed my hair, grew a short beard/heavy stubble (think Jason Statham), started leaving two buttons undone on my shirts instead of just the top, bought jeans that were both darker and tighter than I was accustomed too, a leather jacket and stopped smiling so much.
Hmm…now that I think about it, maybe you’re right, and I am trying to be less agreeable and amiable…. Either way, there’s no way I’m going back to khakis and polo shirts.
@Jackie
Don’t ever feel the need to pipe down – I enjoy and even rely on your positive and insightful comments! You’re like the pied piper of HUS.
There is a lot of criticism of the casting as nepotism. I’m not sure how the casting was handled, but the only weak link is Zosia Mamet, IMO. She’s also got a small role in Mad Men, btw. She just seems all wrong for Girls, though. I don’t think she can act.
WTF? That’s assault, surely!
“”When it became clear I needed more of an edge, I buzzed my hair, grew a short beard/heavy stubble (think Jason Statham), started leaving two buttons undone on my shirts instead of just the top, bought jeans that were both darker and tighter than I was accustomed too, a leather jacket and stopped smiling so much.”"
Jon. That seems to be one of the possible uniforms for guys who might be verging in the direction of at least unamiability or anti-social behavior. Did it work, or did you have to actually act it out? Like, say, spitting on the sidewalk?
I hope you answer that question honestly, but I’ll be honest. If you say it worked, I’ll have to take to my bed with a bottle of cheap port and try to ignore the implications.
@Just1X
I just spent half an hour at 1585. What a smart guy and great writer! I wonder what he’s up to now. And you’re right, his essay on insecurity is hilarious.
Not saying you were necessarily going for the hipster look, but it occurs to me that this is exactly what hipsterism offers – a different uniform that is edgy.
@Jon
I do much the same. Hair slightly different.
Its amazing what a leather jacket can do.
“she has total self-confidence and no self-worth.”
HA! I have been arguing about this with several people over the last year. In my opinion when children today are rewarded and praised constantly even when they don`t really achieve anything and even when they fail at something it fucks them up in several ways. One message they are left with is that rewards and success should be/is easy. Another message is that it is necessary to perceive yourself as having done good to feel good about yourself. There is a difference between self love/self worth/self aceptance which can and should be unconditional and confidence/belief in your abilities and perception of your qualitites. Even though you are not talented in any way or amazing in any way it is still perfectly possible to love yourself unconditonally and feel like a worthwhile person. But that is not the message that IN REALITY is being given to children and people. Rather the message is that you should always love yourself because you are awesome, amazing and can acomplish anything you set your mind to which is actually the oposite of self love since it presuposes that you have to be a truly extraordinary exceptionally talented and great person in order to deserve to love yourself. That is what you are saying when you say love yourself and feel great about yourself BECAUSE you are so amazing and wonderfull. THe healthy message is rather that slef love/self aceptance should come easy and be unconditional but slef confidence and belief in your amazingness needs to be proved and the bar for that kind of feedback is high. Although we are not really aware of it what we are actually teaching children in teh west is not unconditional love but unconditonal positive evaluation of any level of crappy achievement. That is why so many utterly talentless people sign up for pop Idol and similar shows. I have read several articles recently where researchers are tying what I describe her to the culture of narcisim and a lot of the icnrease in mental problems in the last decades.
In psychology the term depressive realism describes the strange phenomenon that clinically depressed peple have a more realistic view of themselves and the world than emotionally healthy people. For a long time this made psychologists believe assesing yourself too highghly was a requirement to feel good about yourself. THen they studied asian people and found they were just as realistic as depressed westerners but that they deed not feel bad as all. They just did not require an exagerated self image to feel they deserved to feel worthy.
To get back to the coment I qouted I think a lot of the bad behaviors and patterns in the SMP can be tied to this phenomenon. People that on the one hand feel they are or at least should be amazing (and so entitled to great thigns and partners) yet still not worthy of anything good (at least not unless they can keep up the required amazingness).
The woman who wrote about the jerk and the nice guy said she was holding out for someone with the right mix. For certain there are guys with the right mix (MikeC, Dogsquat, Athol, and I am sure men you know as well) and certainly such men do very well and are apreceated a lot by women for having this mix down very well but I think there are a lot of women who somehow are unable to really apreceate the right mix. My strong perception is that a lot of women subconciously put you in one of the two categories and somehow can`t seem to relate to a great mix. To me it doesn`t sound right if you have spent 10 yers dating guys that are clearly too much of a jerk or clearly too much of a nice guy and no one who had anything close to a decent mix going on. Since among the men I have known in my life there are quite a few guys with a decent mix going on I don`t buy that it is impossible to find such a man. Sure I realize they are not in overabundance and that they might not be easy to land but if a woman has 10 years of dating many, many men and she hasen`t even dated one such guy something is wrong with HER. If she had dated one or a few and they had rejected her or she knew several but they did not show interest in her THAT would sound credbile. But not even finding any sounds like utter bullshit to me as I see lesser alphas and greater betas with decent behavior and decent hearts regularly. So while I certainly agree there is a nice guy epidemic and probably somewhat of a lesser jerk epidemic there is also an epidiemic of women who are UNABLE to date anything other than jerks or nice guys. Probably there is something in the culture that at the same time pushes guys to become either nice guys or jerks and women to become unable to date either one or the other. This leaves a smaller but still fairly substantial number of men who have a decent mix (not necessarily an ideal mix, a man with a 9-10 alpha score and great beta qualitites truly is rare, but a 6-8 alpha with good enough although not perfect beta qualities certainly are something one encounters) and a small but still fairly substantial number of women who are able to be drawn to the good mix.
A well known poster and teacher at a PUA forum (a natural that later learnt about game) wrote something that ties in well with this. He said that over the last couple of decades he had noticed and acelerating shift in european countries where the richer a country got the less he was able to attract women with his conventional classical masculinity game and the more he had to fake imply some sort of badboysih self destructiveness on his own part in order to hook girls. He said it was like they were pushing him to be moved into either a nice guy or a badboy category but had no slot left for a real classical MAN.
To go back to the original point about too high confidence and too little self worth I think there is a connection between these too phenomenon. I am not sure exactly how it works but it could be something along the lines of unrealstic view of yourself and what you deserve leads to women being drawn to unrealstic displays of alpha which over the top badboy game is and on some level also feeling they deserve unrealisticly subservient beta behavior and worship and so dating guys who displays this yet being turned of by them. Since there is also fundamental lack of self worth there is little or no mechanism to stop attraction to ashole behavior or to set of warning signs that the ashole behavior is actually a sign of not perceiving yourself as being securely placed on top of a social hierarchy. The lack of self worth also makes it difficult or impossible to be attracted to a guy with a healthy and good balance of alpha and beta. The over confidence and entitlement also makes it difficult to view the alpha the guys with the right mix has as enough and to view their beta qualitites as enough.
I think the same message of unrealistic confidence and low self worth helps influence guys to produce the split between nice guys and jerks as well but I am less sure exactly how because feminism plays into it. Certainly overinflated ego and low self worth tends to produce jerks and low self worth produce betas. Without feminism such a culture might have produced mostly an overabundance of jerks but because of feminism what happens is primarily nice guys are produced in over abundance but some real jerks are made as well and they are able to supply the whole female market in a casual half committed way.
I see your point, sir. How about puce pill? Puce = like the purple you see in a bruise. Off putting, for sure. (And alliterative
)
I still prefer a greenish brown mesh, but, Puce will do.
I wanted to underline one point. When your “self confidence” or belief in your own amazingngess or your belief in your need to be amazing is too high and your self worth is low anything less than extreme or total alpha is perceived as too little and anything less than extreme or total beta worhsip is perceived as too little. Thus a woman with such a split is unable to date anything other than jerks or nice guys.
Ana 87:
“When I look at my wife, I don’t just see her as she is now -40ish, chubby and slightly graying, I see the beautiful young woman I feel madly in love with 25 years ago”
It’s great for the guy to feel this way and believe it. He just can’t demonstrate it outwardly. He can’t gush effusively about how great she is to her and the world. The minute he does that, she reacts like Marnie: She recoils at his touch, can’t stand sex with him, gets turned off and creeped out.
It never ceases to amaze how women respond to the exact opposite of what men’s mothers teach them.
Be nice to her, and she hates you.
Be aloof, and she chases you.
Give her the world and she hates you for it.
Give her a little neg, and she loves you.
Well, mostly the character, but..
Lena grew up in Manhattan, which, in itself, often involves lots of money.
She made her first “self-financed” film when she was, like, 23. I know a few people in the industry and I have never heard of someone making an indie when they were 23.
Now, she is getting traditional support for making this series, but her experiences are, basically, based on her living a life in Manhattan.
But, again, the question is really for the characters.
I know.
Except that there is one huge difference. Lena is not happy. If she was, she would not be focused on making a movie Tiny Furniture or this current series. Whereas, Woody Allen seems quite content having sex with his step-daughter.
And here we are.
Yes, she is more self-aware than most girls her age (and many older), but still unwilling to give up the entitlement.
I am not trying to kill the girl, here. I heard her interview with Terry Gross on Fresh Air and I can really appreciate her attitude. But, it is not hard to see that very girls who have the opportunity to live big city lives will pass on that to live in a place that is affordable, stable, and likely to have a nice ratio of upstanding young men.
A leather jacket works wonders…..
Whichever moron put women on a pedestal must have had some other planet in mind.
Another point I want to underline is that I don`t think you need to become a total narcisist with a truly grandiose self image and utter lack of self worth. It is enough to have the basics of too much belief in ones own amazingenss and too little self worth although not zero self worth to have the basic psyhcology to get the dating pattern I described. In more moderate form it probably leads to dating guys that are jerks, just not Tucker Max level jerks and dating nice guys just not beta of the month nice guys.
Also, the standard westerners self image has become so out of whack that the people who lived in 1920 or other cultures that still are not so influenced by the trends I talked about really were/are A LOT more mentally healthy and balanced than people who are considered healthy and balanced in the west today. So I think we are more than fucked up enough to have this dynamic play out across large segments of the poppulation not just those who come close to clinical diagnosies of narcisism.
@Odds
“Women aren’t rejecting nice guys because they feel like they don’t deserve to be treated well, it’s because they value a guy can afford to treat them poorly more than they value good treatment.”
Why would these young women value being treated poorly? I don’t get it.
I finally watched the show. Most likely these girls are from upper-middle class intact families and were well educated. They weren’t raised by a crack-head mom and no dad in poverty. They are not “Precious”. Even Hannah’s parents complain about being just “Professors” as if it were some low-prestige, low-paying job.
Also, why are these women so eager to have sex that they don’t enjoy? Do they have any idea how great sex can be in a loving relationship?
Actually the show is pretty funny and far more realistic than SATC.
So, is “Girls” art imitating life?
“Girls” validates (or at least illustrates) most of Roissy’s 16 commandments:
6. Keep her guessing
9. Connect with her emotions
11. Be irrationally self-confident
13. Err on the side of too much boldness, rather than too little
15. Maintain your state control
16. Never be afraid to lose her
I understand what you are trying to say here, but, I disagree.
The big poofy beards, the tight pants, the skinny ties, and all of this on some guy who weighs 130lbs soaking wet.
These guys rarely get the leather Mechanic boots, with the motorcycle jacket.
I wouldn’t say that they are trying to be edgy.
They are much more likely to wear a flannel shirt. They are tiny, little men who are playing with styles that attempt to masculinize themselves. But, since they are so goddamn ironic and “hip”, they can’t help but make it “different”.
And, holy shit are none of them funny!
Anacoana,
As (almost) always, I don’t disagree with you.
However, there are some important takeaways from this that should be highlighted:
– He married her while she was in her physical prime
– She started bearing his children before her fertility started to decline *
– She raised his children
– (Homeschooling) She REALLY fucking raised them
– For whatever financial problems they had, he was the bread winner.
It is much easier for men to be the (masculine) bread winner when most of the adult women are raising children and not competing with the various husbands for the prime jobs. Combine this with the idea that many women would be happiest sending kids off to school, working something part-time for, say, 4 hours in the meantime (at home, or someplace they commute to), working with other women in a low stress job and then greeting their children when they come home, you can see how a good portion of the modern culture is not prepared to satisfy that.
=====================
* There is, apparently, some evidence that if a woman has her first child before, say, 27, that any children she is likely to bear after 30 (but before 40) are likely to be healthier than women who start having children after, say, 30.
@Wudang #114
I swear to you that you need to read the 1585 link that I gave. It makes your point regarding self belief in SPADES.
http://www.the1585.com/imnicemen.htm
(same link as before)
@Susan
you’re welcome. I came across his site ages ago (pre avfm, ‘D’ and HUS), he really can write (I’d just forgotten about him as his posting rate was low and dropping at the time). Perhaps you two can feed off each other as he seems very relevant to HUS, just from the switched on nice guy side.
Thinking back over forty years to college: I dealt with women in at least two separate categories.
One was the women I dated. I met them, or I followed up on blind dates, or whatever.
And, for reasons I cannot figure, never the twain shall meet, I dealt with women I worked with in lab classes, campus clubs or activities, or part-time employment, or field projects. Never attempted to date them. Never thought about it. Go figure.
Looking back, some of what I thought of as “aww, that was nice of her” was probably women from the second category trying to get my attention. IOW, not chasing them worked. YOU DON’T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING. IN FACT, THE LESS THE BETTER. I don’t think many of us guys thought that.
I don’t recall anybody preaching that technique back then.
And if somebody had tried, we’d have been pretty skeptical.
I don’t think a man’s feeling this way, or even expressing it directly to his wife, amounts to gushing effusively. This is the kind of statement that makes me feel loved and appreciated by my husband. When we go out and he tells me he is proud to have me on his arm, I am pleased that I have not “lost it” in his eyes. Such a statement would never turn me off – in fact, it makes me feel very positive toward my husband.
In the show, Charlie is gushing effusively, all the time, and it is cringe-inducing. He’s always blowing kisses, looking to connect, he even walks in on her when she’s in the bathroom with the door closed. When Hannah remarks to Marnie that he has a vagina, she’s saying what every female (and probably male too) viewer is thinking.
@Maggie
I despair that it appears to work (FWIW), but the PUAs treating women badly are doing so because it sends a subconcious message to the women; “I am better than you, you are lucky that I spend time on you”. It’s termed DHV – Displaying Higher Value.
DLV, which is what nice guys do when they are nice, sends the opposite signal. The subconcious message received by the woman is “you can do better than me”.
This is what annoys nice guys when they get a taste of the red-pill:
a) all my life people told me to be nice – they lied to me.
b) that’s nuts
c) and women then have the cheek to ask, “Where have all the nice guys gone?”. They’re there, you just overlook them as lower value and so uninteresting. Or, they’ve learnt some game and stopped being suckers.
The BIG problem is that only women can fix this. STOP rewarding arseholes! They are only giving you what you respond to, it’s largely your fault.
NAWALT, values of stocks and shares may go up or down, consult a physician if you have these symptoms, YMMV etc
@Ramble
Did she say she was not happy? I get the impression she’s having a blast. Life couldn’t be better. Yes, she might be angsty or even suffer from depression – just like Woody Allen always has.
What Dunham has achieved, in my view, is successfully capture the zeitgeist of Gen Y. She’s a member, but she’s also an observer. She has a fully formed identity, and like I said, NY is obviously a big part of that.
I’m a city person. I’d probably choose to be single in a big city over moving to the boondocks. I also think it’s a myth that rural environments or small towns have nothing but upstanding young men, or even more upstanding young men than any other place. Or at least I’ve never seen any evidence for that claim.
@Ramble
You’re talking about the hipster caricature, as profiled by that site Look at this Fucking Hipster. But a lot of guys in art or music are pretty hipster. I can tell you that all the cashiers at my local Whole Foods are hipsters, both male and female. The guys are adorable with their tats, their ear gauges and their beards. Some of them rock that look very successfully. I’m always amused when I hear them talking about the Red Sox or the Pats – I expect everything they say to be ironic.
OK. I didn’t think of it that way. I got the idea that these shows/movies were her attempt at dealing with her unsatisfying (and quirky, and fun, and cosmopolitan) life.
Maybe she is satisfied and she is simply commenting on the dissatisfaction she sees in others.
So you would stay in your loft in Philadelphia (after your time at Penn) than follow (future) Mr. HUS to Montgomery County?
I don’t mean chase him there, but, knowing that is where the young men are getting there jobs, you would stay in the city with the fun girls?
Actually, you can ignore that question, I will make my point in the next paragraph.
1. You are taking this to the extreme (which I do all the time). City versus boondocks. I actually chose Grand Forks for a reason.
Places like Massachusetts have been losing middle class people for years. It hasn’t had a complete brain drain like western New York, but so many people get an education in Mass and then leave because there are not enough high end jobs for them.
North Dakota, on the other hand, has been actively trying to import people. During this economy, they have maintained a very low unemployment rate.
They also have a low rate of divorce and, for years, the lowest crime rate (they tend to finish in the top2 or 3 every year…for like 50 years).
And, it almost never got talked about, but…
When New Orleans had their flood (from the levees breaking), they saw massive rioting and crime.
When North Dakota had their biggest flood in over 500 years, they saw almost no crime at all. In fact, what they did see, was lots of people coming out to help one another. It was amazing.
Actually, I am talking about what I would call Hipsters. But, there is a spectrum and I understand what you are talking about.
The people you mention are definitely hipsterish.
But, I stand by this: the more “hip” a guy gets, the less funny he is likely to be.
@Ramble
I think my attitude can be summed up as “the devil you know….” For most people, a move across the country to a place with no friends and family is a daunting prospect. Yes, there might be good, employed men there, but to make such a change you’d have to be pretty sure you can’t find a good, employed man where you are. And you’d have to put finding a man higher on your list of life priorities than staying in a city you know and love, except for the not having a man part.
I think most residents of Grand Forks would not even consider a move to NYC, no matter what it offered. Heck, my in-laws couldn’t even get most of their friends to come there for our wedding, because NYC is “the devil’s playground.”
For most people, a move across the country to a place with no friends and family is a daunting prospect.
Oh shit, no, I didn’t mean that. Again, just as I was criticizing you for taking things to the extreme, I was making an extreme comparison between the Upper West Side and the Upper Western US.
What I was trying to say was this: I have seen tons of girls go out of there way to make sure that they live in the city. It is more expensive, car insurance costs much more (and, outside of Manhattan, a few other choice places, you will likely need a car), parking is a bitch and the social life is much more geared towards casual sex.
Whereas the burbs is where the guys get their jobs, in general. IT shops, engineering firms and tech in general are in the burbs.
Silicon Valley is NOT in San Fran, it is in the burbs.
This is where the “desirable” future husbands are (again, grand generalization).
Yet, girls, in general, flock to the city. Or, at least, they want to. Now, I live in a large cosmopolitan east coast city, and I love it. But, I can still see the math (for girls).
J and Jackie, I was lucky enough to be raised until 10 by a combination of my maternal grandparents, aunts and uncles. My grandparents gave me adoration and love, my aunt was the strict one who showed me work ethic, and one uncle was the fun one while the other uncle was the scary one (he was a police officer). I was naturally smart and good at school, but I never got praise for it at home, only by the parents of other kids. My family was full of smart people already, and I was just a kid, so compared to them my intellect was nothing impressive. They taught me work ethic, obedience and discipline above all else, but I also had lots of love.
My mother was a strict authortarian parent who yelled at me, criticized me and was verbally abusive toward me. But I had already been mostly shaped by that time, so the only thing that happened was I kept my willpower and work ethic, but got a very low self-esteem and became an outcast. I gained compassion for the downtrodden and other outcasts. My mother’s ways weren’t all bad. She just was the Tiger Mom without any love or affection. I would have much preferred Amy Chua, or the parents who were loving and lenient. I had self-motivation in spades. I just wasn’t motivated by abuse.
Asian (and other immigrant groups / traditional cultures) parenting style seems brutal, but it usually produces well-behaved people. I wouldn’t go that far personally, but I think setting the rules is a good idea. Nobody ever gave in to my tantrums as a kid, and I learned valuable life lessons early in childhood. I am lucky that my mother was not the only influence on me, because otherwise I could have turned out like one of those Asian kids splattered on the sidewalk by suicide.
Anacaona, I had my husband’s underwear and shirt, and I liked to smell them, when we were long-distance.
Ramble, that homemaker ideal doesn’t happen in less developed nations. In China for example, women work and have always worked hard. They couldn’t be afforded the luxury of being with their kids all the time. A lot of kids were like me, raised by retired grandparents and helped out by daycare, kindergarten, school, etc. I was home alone sometimes when I was in elementary school, even with all of the people that lived under one roof.
My husband says that the same thing is true in Africa, where he was for Peace Corps. Kids often play with each other sans adult supervision. They also contributed to chores, cleaned classrooms, and carried water buckets, much as we did in China if not more. The ideal childrearing scenario that is promoted in the West just doesn’t happen in poorer nations.
Ramble, that homemaker ideal doesn’t happen in less developed nations.
Right, but we are. and we could likely afford to have a fairly, and reasonably, “ideal” lives.
Susan, do you see why I have generalized that girs my age do not commitment?
I have flocked to the big city, which goes against the generalization that Ramble made regarding rural being where the “‘desirable’ future husbands” are.
If you were to imagine talk of exclusivity, or anything commitment-oriented would you see it coming from a Adam, or a Charlie?
Do you think Adam even considers his relationship with Hannah as exclusive?
I think not, which is part of Hannahs’ attraction. She likes him cause he “can afford to treat [her] poorly.”
Ramble, the subtext of what I was saying is that the “ideal” childrearing might actually produce less productive generations of people. The fact that kids from immigrant cultures were subject to hardships means that they work harder.
Both my husband and I were raised by full-time working mothers and went to daycare. We didn’t turn out delinquent or devoid of empathy. His mother worked hard and saved up so he could go to private school, which in the end shaped his personality and background quite a bit.
Very few Asians homeschool their kids, so I suppose that is another cultural difference.
@SW 95
Too many posts to read, but thought I’d give an example of this. A few months ago (Jan I think) I was out with my gf and some of her friends from college. I was being amiable and nice with them, and she asked me to recommend a bar nearby where we could all go. I did, and we started walking there. We were in the West Village, which I know quite well (I live there), but is hard to find your way around if you don’t. None of her friends had been living in NYC for more than a few months, and a couple were even visiting from out of town. Point being, none of them had any idea how to get around the area we were in. After a few blocks of walking, this one guy starts making douchey remarks about my being lost and asking why they’re following me. I was trying to be nice, so I didn’t say anything for a while. Eventually I got us to the bar, turned around, and said to him “Well I guess I knew where I was going after all a**hole.” We went inside, and my gf and I got in line for the bathroom. He was right behind me, and started making more dickish remarks. At this point I’d lost any will to be nice, so started ripping into him too. As I walked away to the bathroom, I heard him say to my GF behind me “I don’t know what you’re doing with this asshole, you shouldn’t be dating him”. After I finished peeing (I really had to go), I came out of the bathroom, grabbed him, threw him against the wall and told him if he ever said something like that again I’d kill him. I obviously got kicked out of the bar, but she came out and met me and we went home. She was more all over me that night than almost any other night we’ve been dating.
Point is, you don’t need to be a douchebag to display dominance or edge. I was perfectly nice to the other guys/girls, all of whom I got on well with. But you have to stand up for yourself and not take any shit. I don’t take any from her (“you want water? you know where the glasses are”), and I don’t take any from other people. It’s really that simple. Otherwise I’m a pretty nice, sociable person. And you don’t have to do what I did all the time. A few displays like that go a looong way.
@Ana #89
My father passed yesterday and the last week, especially the last two days, were very rough but my mother was at his side, holding him and talking to him and comforting him, even though he was only truly aware a couple of days of it and the last two wasn’t really aware of his surroundings.
Ramble, the subtext of what I was saying is that the “ideal” childrearing might actually produce less productive generations of people.
And I never meant to imply that what we are seeing today were the product of “ideal” families.
I am trying to say that the modern setup of females and males competing for the same jobs with each having fairly different interests and desires, in general, is not good.
However, if you are trying to say something about modern coddled children, you will get no argument from me.
Herb, my sympathies.
@Cooper
That’s an interesting question. They’re definitely not exclusive, they’re just f*ckbuddies, apparently. My guess is that Hannah is looking for love, albeit in the wrong place. She wants a guy who has a dick, not a vagina, which is how she describes Charlie. But I don’t think she even likes Adam. He’s not very likable – how could she? He’s just a man who gives her something – not love, not even like, but validation of some sort, the halfhearted effort of finding her sexually attractive enough to have sex with her on occasion.
Marnie is also looking for love and commitment. The women have “chosen” guys at extreme ends of the spectrum. They both want more of what the other has, but not too much of it. It’s the Goldilocks dilemma. The asshole/wimp bifurcation in the male population is new, an unintended consequence of the Sexual Revolution.
The good news is that the more than women recognize that there’s no one occupying the middle ground, we can at least begin to discuss ways of addressing that. It’s going to take a long time, though. Your generation doesn’t have that much time, you need to select women very carefully and make sure you have your own shit together.
When the things I read here make me panic about the future of my unborn child (ren) my husband reminds me that the majority of people that made it, are out there too busy living their lives and fighting the good fight to post the “sad history of their lives” on the internet.
Your husband is right. And even if all the negatives were true for the majority of people, it would not necessarily affect your kid. There’s a lot of horrible stuff that goes on at my kids’ high school, for example, that they simply elect not to particpate it. Yeah, they get some crap for that from other kids, but they have also learned how to deal with that stuff from a perspective of–what does the ‘sphere call it?–oh yeah, amused mastery.
You can’t let the negative stuf get you down. When I worked in adolescent mental health, I saw some really sad things on a daily basis. One of my co-workers once told me that she would never have kids because of what she had seen. I told her I fully intended to have kids. I have two healthy kids; she has a dog.
Kirk #80
That’s insane to burn someone without provocation. Did you call the police?
@Herb
I’m very sorry to hear about your loss. I can see why you hold your mother up as an example of true love and devotion.
Zach,
That’s a good story, and, good for you for standing up for yourself and your girl. But, that is more about standing up for what is right than having an “edge”.
We could probably debate what “edge” means until the cows come home, but it will not be the same as being a stand up man.
Herb, I am sorry to hear that. It does sound like your father was loved until his dying breath, and his soul will be resting in peace. I am sorry that you and your mother are going through this though. One thing I have heard during my own mourning that helped me was that the grief of loved ones help the deceased reach their resting place. So do not feel like you have to hide or hold back your grief.
@Zach
Seriously, you got my attention with that story. Yup, that’s pretty damned attractive to women.
I guess I don’t know what edge really is. You showed an edge that night, for sure, but I don’t think it makes you “edgy.” I always thought it meant a demeanor that’s sarcastic, snide, rude, etc. When I hear a woman saying she likes edgy guys, I think she really just wants to be treated badly. It’s like the gf of the violent convict saying she likes his “energy.”
Nice posts, Lavazza, particulary regarding teaching by example. When my sons were little, we visited one of my cousins that I see infrequently. She was amazed by my sons good manners and asked how I managed to drill manners into such little kids. When I thought about it, I realized that I had NEVER actually taught them anything. They said please and thank you because DH and I had said it to them.
“She wants a guy who has a dick, not a vagina, which is how she describes Charlie.”
Don’t you think Hannah would group any guy willing to commit as having a vagina?
The way she adores Adams’ treatment, and Marnie loaths Charlies’ niceness (albiet over-the-top) sends the message to guys to withhold commitment, or any emtional investment (Adam doesn’t seem invested, does he?), to maintain attraction. If she picks up on any willingness to commit, then the guy doesn’t have the “afford to treat [me] poorly” factor.
You say I “need to select women very carefully,” but if I were to discuss any sort of relationship topic (ie. Where do you see this going? ect.) I’d be catagorized as ‘having a vagina.’
Do you get any sense that the Adam is screaning Hannah for good character?
I felt that too. At one point, she asks him how the production of his play is going and he says something like, “We’re not gonna do it. That guy is a dick.” That’s obviously a huge disappointment but he can’t acknowledge that. He also calls his parents buffoons – he’s clearly an unhappy guy.
I’m glad to hear I’m not alone. I feel creepy about feeling sympathetic. He’s a really unattractive character. If I had a daughter, I’d want him nowhere near her, but as a mom of boys I just have to feel badly for him because I’m so well aquainted with the sort of suburban a$$holery that produced him and his aimlessness. That weird blend of cockiness, helplessness, conceit and low self-esteem is fostered by parents needing the kid to be their narcissistic supply. These kids feel simultaneously better than everyone and never quite good enough. It’s insufferable and also sad.
@Just1X
“all my life people told me to be nice – they lied to me”
I don’t think these people lied to you. That’s the way it use to work. It’s been maybe in the past 10 or 15 years that everything has been turned upside down, so many people over 35 are clueless and younger people are mystified.
Zach, female attraction is on a spectrum. Your display would have been too much for me. My husband would have likely used a funny remark to defuse that situation, or somehow made the other person look belligerent. He’s a pro with his wit, and beyond that neither of us likes to associate with crappy people. We would have given that person the cold shoulder and left. He would have never gotten physical first, that much I know 100%, and I respect him greatly for it.
Cooper, you’re more likely to run into that kind of behavior in the big cities. In other parts of the country, that sort of thing still exists to an extent, but it’s more subdued. The good guy would get the girlfriend, but she might lose attraction for him months or years down the road. It certainly would not be immediately upon his bringing up the word “relationship.”
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