Not being one of the media darlings who got advance copies of HBO’s new show Girls, I had to wait for Sunday’s premiere before weighing in. I enjoyed the first episode very much, which surprised me – I wasn’t a fan of Tiny Furniture, the film that put Lena Dunham on the map and brought her an offer to collaborate from Judd Apatow. I found Girls well written and funny – a sort of bizarre, young singles’ Curb Your Enthusiasm, coupled with a sad poignancy. Creator, writer, director and star Lena Dunham is telling the world just how effed up life is for Gen Y, with its anemic job market and crappy sex.
The first episode gives us a look at two very different couples, neither of which seems long for this world. They represent very well the contemporary diametric in sex and relationships, with its masculinized women and feminized men. Still, either or both of these couples could limp along for ages in a very meh sort of way. This is courtship by inertia.
Marnie is dating Charlie, a boy so head over heels in love that he needs a constant “fix,” touching, stroking, grinning at his beloved. At one point, the morning after Marnie has avoided him by “accidentally” falling asleep in another room while watching Mary Tyler Moore, she hands him her dirty mouthguard. He happily takes it and then signals his intent to kiss her good morning.
Comin’ atcha… Here it comes…MWAH..that was my kiss blowing up on you.
We cringe with her, and we’re not surprised when she discusses her growing repulsion with Hannah shortly afterwards.
Hannah: You literally slept in my bed to avoid him.
Marnie: I know. Hannah, I’ve turned a corner. His touch just feels like a weird uncle putting his hand on my knee at Thanksgiving.
Hannah: (Sigh.) What does it even feel like to be loved that much?
Marnie: It makes me feel like such a bitch because I can feel him being so nice to me – and yet it makes me so angry!
Hannah: I think you need to admit something to yourself, which is that you’re sick of eating him out. ‘Cause he has a vagina.
That night, Charlie tries to get kinky by proposing a little role play, and Marnie suggests it might work if he pretends to be a stranger. “Like, someone who acts completely different from you.” Ouch.
In the other corner, we find Hannah and Adam, f*ckbuddies except for the buddy part. They can’t have been at this for long, because Adam appears to observe the tattoos on Hannah’s body for the first time. Nevertheless, he’s indifferent enough to make it clear he’s already tired of her. He never texts her back, and when she stops by one day because she was “in his neighborhood” her affable eagerness provides a discomfiting contrast to his bored contempt.
Hannah: I like you so much, I don’t understand why you disappear.
Adam: What are you talking about? I’m right here.
…You modern career woman, I know what you like, you think you can just come in here and talk all that noise?
…Lie flat on your stomach, now reach back and grab your feet. Now stay in that position but take all that shit off.
Frank Bruni, writing The Bleaker Sex in the New York Times, describes the unfolding sex scene as he takes her from behind, looking bored:
“So I can just stay like this for a little while?” she asks. “Do you need me to move more?”
He needs her to intrude less. “Let’s play the quiet game,” he answers.
From the PC vantage point of a gay male who has no dog in this fight, Bruni asks, “You watch these scenes and other examples of the zeitgeist-y, early-20s heroines of “Girls” engaging in, recoiling from, mulling and mourning sex, and you think: Gloria Steinem went to the barricades for this?”
Meanwhile, in an eerie recollection of my recent description of the Goldilocks dilemma - women trying to find men worthy of both lust and attachment in just the right mix – writer Annie James channels Goldilocks in a post at The Frisky, identifying with the nice guy vs. asshole quandary.
Judging from my social media streams and a litany of text messages from friends, most of us watching “Girls” were struck by the dilemma of dating the asshole versus dating the nice guy and how neither is a viable option.
About six months ago I started seeing a sharp-mouthed, emotionally-damaged gentleman with his own serious commitment issues. He didn’t return emails or calls or make plans with me.
“What do you like about me?” I asked him. “You’re brunette and you have a vagina,” he replied.
When I asked what he expected to get out of our relationship, he told me to stop acting like a turkey. Then he shrugged.
“I don’t date girls longer than a fiscal quarter … and I don’t trust women. I’m easily bored.”
I was a little in love.
The meaner he was, the harder I fell. He once called me a retarded slut right after we had sex. On second thought, he might have still been inside me at the time. I was angry and disgusted. I stormed out of his house. I texted him some nasty expletive along with: “I should come up there and smack you.” He evenly replied: “You don’t have the code to get back in. Stop being a turkey.”
Wow, that is some tight Game right there. James (who’s in her 30s, by the way) sounds like she may have dated a certain prominent Game blogger who shall remain nameless. Predictably:
For the exact length of a fiscal quarter, he built barriers, I tried to tear them down and my cravings reached a fever pitch. At the close of four months, as promised, he informed me that we should no longer date over the post-modern Post-It note: GChat.
“It’s not like I owe you anything,” he typed, not even having the courtesy to include a sad face emoticon.
James decides to try the nice guy next:
He would meet me anywhere that was convenient for me. He texted. He emailed. He told me I was smart and pretty and that he thought every little thing that I did was awesome. He wanted to meet my friends. He wanted to meet my dog…He kissed me on the street outside of the bar [one] night. “I don’t want to play games. I really like you,” he said.
I hated him. Like another character in “Girls,” Allison Williams’ Marnie, who can’t stand her too-adoring, too perfect-seeming boyfriend, I was disgusted by his niceness. Similarly, there wasn’t an ounce of my loins that could quiver for this man. I even tried the age-old libido lubricant beer goggles in an attempt to spark some physical passion.
Five shots of Jameson later I couldn’t even fathom a cuddle. He made my skin crawl.
In an effort to understand her many failed relationships, James consulted Helen Fisher, an expert on the brain and attraction, and got a real answer:
When a person feels rejected, brain regions linked with craving, addiction and obsession become active. You can’t stop thinking about the person. You become obsessed. Someone is camping in your head and you can’t get them out. Anytime there is a real barrier in the relationship and you are not sure if you can win the relationship, it heightens the craving. The less you think you can win the person, the hotter the craving.
Of course, Fisher is describing the dopamine reward system here. I’d b willing to bet James is a DRD4 mutant. Acknowledging that she is likely to pull her hair out and become a madwoman if she keeps going for guys who call her a retarded slut, James holds out hope that the perfect man, the one who is “just right” will show up.
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7ZrBCY9ipI
I’m looking forward to the rest of the Girls season, as Lena Dunham continues to expose the reality of the schizophrenic demands women are making of men.
{ 272 comments… read them below or add one }
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It’s great for the guy to feel this way and believe it. He just can’t demonstrate it outwardly. He can’t gush effusively about how great she is to her and the world. The minute he does that, she reacts like Marnie: She recoils at his touch, can’t stand sex with him, gets turned off and creeped out.
I hate to say NAWALT, NAWALT. And I know that you don’t believe that, but it’s true.
I also think it’s a myth that rural environments or small towns have nothing but upstanding young men, or even more upstanding young men than any other place. Or at least I’ve never seen any evidence for that claim.
There’s a surprising amount of alcohol and drug abuse in rural areas. Social life revolves around drinking because there’s not much else to do.
J, by the sounds of it, most women that men go after are a bit desensitized to good behavior, from getting so much male attention since they were young. So from the male perspective, all women (whom they notice/want) ARE like that. Supposedly the 6-8s are more prone to this, because they are seen as more approachable. Also the more extroverted, flirty and sociable women tend to prefer minimal displays of affection.
Since we were both introverted, nerdy and shy, we actually appreciate it when men are affectionate and demonstrative with emotions. We have the scarcity mentality, whereas the women that men generally notice live in complete abundance. It’s the jerky, aloof behavior that they hardly encounter, so they’re attracted like flies to poop.
Herb,
I’m sorry to hear of your father’s passing. It’s hard to lose a parent. Take care of yourself.
@Hope
It was good that there were several adults under one roof to provide a variety of influences on you. I think that one thing we’ve lost, when moving to this model of mom, dad and the kids in their own house, is having other adults to lessen the influence and temper the behavior of parents. I often wonder if my mother would have been less destructive had her mother been around to rein her in. I also wonder if grandparents are better than parents at providing unconditional love. Parents can view kids as a reflection of themselves in a away I don’t think grandparents do. I never knew any of my grandparents, but I think I missed something.
@Hope
Not knocking you for liking that sort of guy, but in my eyes (and most other guys) not reacting forcefully to that sort of comment would classify him as a p**sy. That’s a direct challenge to your manhood, and by turning it down, backing off and allowing it to stand, you might as well be screaming at the top of your lungs “Beta! Beta! Beta!”. Good luck keeping 95% of women you’re dating after you’re been so emasculated in front of her.
To give you an example, I have a couple friends who act very much in the “dark triad” sense with women and attempt to assert dominance with men this way. However, if you ever get in their face, they’ll immediately retract everything they’ve said and crawl off to a corner. There is no better way to shatter a perception of “alpha” than by slinking away from a confrontation. Simply put, I’d say you’re the exception rather than the rule.
Zach: I don’t know if it because of me or my social circle, but I have never had any experience reminding of that situation. I can’t even remember seeing it happen to others or hearing about it. In the industrial city where I grew there would be a fight every night and people would be thrown out by the bouncers, but I never saw it at uni or since.
Hope #153
That’s probably true. If so, it’s sad that beta guys and girls are largely invisible to each other. It seems that the people most likely to appreicate each other, pine after someone else.
I wonder if it’s personality or HB number that influences which women get approached. I’ve seen your pics; and while I hate to rate people, if 9-10 is model/actress, you are 7-8 (which I would define as being about as nice-looking as real women get) and should have been Miss Popularity if looks are the sole criteria. I would have put my youthful self in the same range. I certainly didn’t have guys crawling all over me then. (Though weirdly, men my age really seem to like me now.)
J, I also think multiple adult influences are good for kids. My husband had his mom, dad, stepdad, paternal grandmother, uncle on his dad’s side, and a few cousins who were already adults (his dad is the youngest by 15 years or more). He was generally more mature than other kids his age and could interact well with adults.
Zach, my husband is well-respected by people who understand him (his IQ is 2SD above the norm). It takes a certain kind of woman to appreciate him, and he was going his own way for a long time because most women did not. I would describe him as a modern Renaissance Man, a “warrior-scholar-poet.” He is trained in multiple martial arts, knife fighting, grew up around guns and has a collection, raised by a Vietnam vet, went mountain climbing and biking, survived near-death episodes, travelled the world, lived in 3rd world conditions, wrote poetry, composed music, is a skilled mathematician and programmer, a charismatic leader when the situation calls for it, and be a follower without issue.
His manhood is not easily challenged by some idiot at a bar, not that either of us hangs out at bars. He has nothing to “prove,” so if someone provokes him and thinks he’s a “pussy” for not getting his hands dirty, he can shrug it off no big deal. To me that is truly “alpha” mindset. I had dated a guy in the past who was really insecure, submissive and had cuckold fantasies, but acted all tough with other guys and tried to escalate fights. It was ridiculous and, well, declasse. My husband’s frame is real dominance, and unless there’s a real threat, he will be a quiet and self-assured sheepdog instead of a sheep putting on wolf’s clothes.
I don’t want to knock you or what you did. But telling guys to put their hands on another guy like that is not doing them a service either. Then again, an armed society is a polite society. Gun ownership in Utah is very different than NYC.
Since I’m the person who brought up the idea of being attracted to men with an “edge”, I guess I should offer up my definition of it.
A man with an edge, to me, is considered very masculine and “rugged”. He has traits about him or participates in certain activities that seem to create the ever elusive “tingle” in women. All of the women I have known have been attracted to some element of “edge” in their men. Some edgy traits or behaviors include:
-driving a motorcycle (something about this is a definite tingle inducer)
-Knowing how to fight or specializing in a specific combat art (boxing, muay thai, mixed martial arts.)
-Playing in a band, or expertise in a traditional band instrument (guitar, bass, drums). Being the lead singer also works.
-being an athlete, typically in the designated most masculine sports (baseball, football, basketball, hockey, soccer)
-participating in extreme non-mainstream sports (bmx, snowboarding, skateboarding, etc)
-having an edgy sense of style or elements on the body. The most common examples would be tattoos and body piercings.
-being classified as a “lone wolf” or “loner”
-having a rugged appearance (beard or 5 o’clock shadow, faded or distressed jeans, a motorcycle jacket, etc)
Most men who are classified as “edgy” typically have one or more of these traits. It’s also not a coincidence that a lot of “bad boys” or “players” have one or more of these elements. I can’t speak for all women, but having at least one of the above traits is a tingle inducing factor.
One of the few guys that I have ever tingled for on first sight (literally) was a guy that was very handsome who also had a 5 0′ clock shadow, a lip ring, played the drums in a band, and skateboarded. The icing on the cake was that he was genuinely a nice guy.
That should have been “can be a follower without issue.”
J, I think personality is a lot bigger of a factor in popularity than pure looks. I’ve always had more common with the nerds and outcasts and hung out with them. Plus I was literally the youngest in my class, and I tend to look a bit younger on top of that since I’m Asian. I didn’t grow into my looks until my 20s.
Reminds me of when I had just turned 25, and someone came over to fix my cable modem. I was dressed casually, had my hair pulled back, and I had some breakout pimples. He was like, “Are you in high school? Are your parents here?” I had to explain to him that it was my own apartment, and that I was 25. It was a little embarrassing. My husband laughed when I told him the story.
Sassy.
So, we have a well-groomed paratrooper whose tat is a parachute and the words “death from above”. No rings, no beard, takes daily showers.
IOW, the real deal, not a combination of signals.
How’s that?
I like the show too, but I got annoyed by the too-witty dialogue.
But thinking it over the last few days, the depiction of these girls is really accurate. That’s really how many/most upper middle class, urban, Ivy/near-Ivy white female 20/early-30-something creatives talk, in terms of substance, style and even accent. You can even just overhear it casually on the streets here in New York.
Another thing that caught my attention is that since Dunham is not really that pretty (though not ugly at all, but not on the same level of attractiveness as most other actresses, in particular her co-stars here), her character’s dating troubles seem more realistic. Alot of times the the “Hollywood Homely”: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodHomely
actresses aren’t abvle to generate much real drama because I’m looking at the screen like “but she’s hot!”
@ Richard Aubrey
I don’t know what you are asking me.
Hope,
I was two years younger than average in college, though I think I looked more mature. I was one of those women who looks pretty much the same between 14 and 40.
Still, I wonder what it is that makes nerd boys pursue “alpha” chicks rather than nerd girls.
“-Playing in a band, or expertise in a traditional band instrument (guitar, bass, drums). Being the lead singer also works.”
WOOHOO! I have this one! I was worried for a minute there I would come up with zilch.
@Scipio Africanus
One thing I really like about the show is the use of ordinary looking people. The Brits have always done this, and loved their actors for ability rather than looks, but we Americans would rather watch a good looking, not very talented actor.
Lena Dunham can look attractive, but no, she’s not a beauty. She’s also overweight. I’ve heard that in other episodes we get to see her naked, fat rolls and all. This woman is really letting it all hang out. I love the way the show starts with her stuffing her mouth full of spaghetti.
Again, she’s happy to laugh at herself. Also, the guy she’s having sex with isn’t exactly attractive either, which of course doesn’t prevent him from acting like she’s lucky to have sex with him. Also, she often pits herself against a very pretty best friend – and indeed we do see how their lives differ, and how differently they’re treated by men.
For Susan or anyone else here who can vividly remember a time before 1998 from an adult level:
Did the cachet of living in Manhattan/Brooklyn (the sexy parts, not the non-gentrified, non-chic parts) increase after the popularity of Sex And The City? Or was it always this sought after?
J, I grew up around nerdy guys and had no shortage of them who wanted to get with me. I also got a lot of insight into how many of them think and operate. It’s partially an issue of approachability and perceived ease of socialization. The girls that guys tend to go after are social butterflies. They talk, socialize and flirt with everybody. They often have extended social circles and know a lot of people, both girls and guys. My husband’s first “love,” if you could call it that, was a very extroverted girl who wanted to be an actress and would make impromptu performances right on the sidewalk. That was never me, although among people I am comfortable with, I can talk a lot. That’s usually how the guys got interested in me.
Also, there’s the stereotype that nerdy girls are frigid, ugly, fat, don’t have a good fashion sense, and are too masculine or too much like the guys. In almost all the video games I see guys saying “any girl who plays this game is fat and ugly.” As with all stereotypes, there is some ring of truth, but it’s a catch-22 because if a girl claims not to be fat or ugly, guys will call her an attention whore, “tits or gtfo,” and “pics or it didn’t happen.” A lot of nerdy females have developed thick skins online because of years of socialization with nerdy males. Many will also develop a more masculine personality to fit in with the guys. I did that for a time, and I would cuss awkwardly. Several people pointed out that I sounded stupid doing it (I have a young voice), so I stopped.
There is also the issue that the ratio of nerdy girls to nerdy guys is not in the nerdy guys’ favor. A nerdy female “4″ could get with a nerdy male “6″ because of the difference in population size. The nerdy guy figures he will likely have to look outside the nerdy female pool for a girlfriend, and since the rise of photoshop and obesity (concurrently it seems), nerdy guys don’t want the overweight nerdy girls either. They’d rather compete for a good-looking girl who seems flirty and fun. After all, they have enough nerdy male buddies to fulfill their other needs. Like many other young men, they lust after the mainstream female celebrities, watch a lot of porn, and want the hot girl who has a lot of sex. They’re still guys and have young male libidos, albeit more systematizing types that like to delve deep into technical systems. So it all makes sense to me.
@ Lavazza
I’m a bit surprised. I grew up in Manhattan and went to an Ivy college, and while fights absolutely were not common, they certainly were something I saw from time to time. When you’re in a situation with lots of booze, testosterone and women, these things tend to happen (ie frat parties, sometimes bars in the city), no matter how educated or intelligent the people are.
@Hope
Let me be clear, I’m not advocating fighting for the sake of fighting. I’ve walked away from guys before. As an example, my brother’s friend once got very drunk, accused me of a slight from years ago that I didn’t remember, and tried repeatedly to goad me into a fight. I just stood there calmly and said there’s no reason to fight. And there wasn’t. In some cases, however, there IS a need to respond. Maybe you just don’t understand how men relate to each other, but trying to undermine a guy’s relationship with his girl is about as direct of a challenge as exists between men. It’s VERY different from some guy wanting to fight you because you accidentally bumped into him at the bar. If I told one of my friends girlfriends that my friend was an asshole and she was wasting her time with him, I’d expect him to fight me. And as I noted above, this generally transcends class, intelligence, etc. Almost every single one of my friends is extremely smart (we mostly went to Penn, Duke, Harvard, etc) and came from at least a moderately privileged background.
Sassy
You described the characteristics of an attractive, edgy guy. Seemed to me that some of that is pretty cheap. Anybody can go without shaving and you don’t need a testosterone certificate to get a leather jacket.
Snowboarding and whatnot are interesting. However, the snowboarders’ association does not maintain a corps of embalmers and pay for the funeral in case you wipe out. Hardly worth it, since fatalities are so rare.
A paratrooper–any Infantryman, but jumpers have more public relations, not like the jarheads, but pretty good–is the real deal. In terms of edgy, rugged, risk-taking. Socially apt, at least in terms of being pretty tight with other paratroopers.
As Elliott Arnold said in “Rescue”, a jumper doesn’t have to explain himself to anybody, his wife, his girlfriend. He is, by definition, a brave man.
He need not load up on signals.
So, my question is how much signals count and whether the real deal is handicapped by not loading up on signals.
Full disclosure. I got through jump school but I was never thereafter in an Airborne unit, so I don’t qualify as a paratrooper.
@J
I’m sure this has been discussed before, but can you explain what you mean by “alpha chick?” And, come to think of it, “nerd girl?”
I have some notion that “alpha chick” is something like the cheer-leader who dated the team quarterback in high school and the select frat-boyz in college. We used to call her the queen bee. Nerd-girl seems to be something like the bookish quiet type who’s a little goth, reads poetry and smokes in high school, and follows up by majoring in Gothe, Nitche and indi music/cinema in college (but I’m guessing about that).
It’s been a long time, but from my experience neither one of those stereotypes were really very successful with men. The first did get married relatively young, but then got divorced young. The second was always a loner who tended to remain that way.
The ones who were the most successful with men were the ones in-between, who were pretty studious and/or hard working, but also knew how to enjoy themselves occasionally (and dress the part, too).
Re: nerdy girls
I’d love to know how to identify a nerdy chick.
To be *completely* honest, when I try to paint a picture in my head of a nerdy girl I can’t without adding physically unattractive. (I’m definitely a nerd, but I also hold physical fitness in high regard, myself included of course – there’s two things I hold to very high standards- my abs and my K/D)
And when I do manage to paint the geeky look onto a good-looking one, I feel like I’ve illustrated a Liger. (a hybrid between a lion, and a tiger)
And none-the-less, would I know where to find such a rare specimen.
Manhattan was a really expensive place to live before SATC and was really expensive after as well. Basically, other than the lowlights of the Stagflation 70′s, Manhattan, and cities like it, have been fairly popular for a long time.
For most people, a move across the country to a place with no friends and family is a daunting prospect. Yes, there might be good, employed men there, but to make such a change you’d have to be pretty sure you can’t find a good, employed man where you are. And you’d have to put finding a man higher on your list of life priorities than staying in a city you know and love, except for the not having a man part.
Mmm that paragraph sounds familiar somehow. Odd that :p
Anacaona, I had my husband’s underwear and shirt, and I liked to smell them, when we were long-distance.
Heh maybe there is a correlation between the grossness of the woman and the pregnancy rate.
The ideal childrearing scenario that is promoted in the West just doesn’t happen in poorer nations.
So very true might mother stayed at home till the youngest was around 4, but she used to produce money selling baked goods, doing raffles and all sorts of small businesses at home and we all helped the best we could so yeah is a myth that poor women get to stay at home and look after the kids only in poor countries all our female neighbors added income to the house somehow.
One of my co-workers once told me that she would never have kids because of what she had seen. I told her I fully intended to have kids. I have two healthy kids; she has a dog.
I did had a stage like that when I was on my own version of going my own way but once I realized I was making this choices out of fear I decided to get brave and do my darn best to get everything I wanted. I know you hate it but one of my favorite parts of The Red Tent was when Dinah was telling her cousin that she wanted to have many children and when she lists all the bad things that could happen she just says: “Midwives are not afraid of life”. It was one of those moments when an writer tell with words with you had been feeling for the longest time I’m not afraid of life, YMMV.
Parents can view kids as a reflection of themselves in a away I don’t think grandparents do.
Being a grandparent is more relaxing since the kids are someone else responsibility but also because after being around for a while you kind of realize that in the long run the small things are not that important an insight parents lack more often than not, YMMV.
I wonder if it’s personality or HB number that influences which women get approached.
Like the Marylin Monroe story is body language and attitude, modeling I could go from literaly make the traffic stop to being invisible just by changing my behaviour. You don’t only need to look pretty but to act pretty.
I like you and J had not a lot of guys chasing after me, the ones that did were in a huge majority assholes, given that there was not a nerdy culture when I was growing up, oh well thank God to the nerd that invented Internet
The girls that guys tend to go after are social butterflies. They talk, socialize and flirt with everybody. They often have extended social circles and know a lot of people, both girls and guys.
Yes, I think that explains a lot. All other things being equal, extroversion FTW.
I know you hate it but one of my favorite parts of The Red Tent was when Dinah was telling her cousin that she wanted to have many children and when she lists all the bad things that could happen she just says: “Midwives are not afraid of life”.
I’m not sure I got that far in the book, but I agree it’s a nice sentiment.
@ Richard Aubrey
I’m still a little confused by what you mean, but I’ll try my best to answer.
It goes without saying that the effectiveness of the edgy traits depends on whether or not a man can pull off the looks or traits well.
It is indeed true that any man can buy a leather jacket, but not all men look good in leather jackets or would be taken seriously by wearing leather jackets. The same goes for facial hair. Not all men look good with facial hair, and some men can’t grow full beards. They come in patchy instead.
Having edgy traits just to try to be edgy doesn’t work. They have to be believable and they have to be well executed. Putting a nerdy guy in a leather jacket would make him more of a laughing stock than helping his credibility. Playing a sport or instrument badly won’t help a man either.
What I’m trying to say is that, in order for edgy characteristics to work, they have to be authentic. Loading up on such traits on purpose won’t work. They have to fit the man and they have to be a part of who he is.
Zach, well, the thing is, my husband has very sharp wit and is quick with the comebacks. If someone said in a group situation that he was lost, he’d be like, “Hey, go ahead and lead the way.” He has a way of saying things in a very nonchalant and cool manner, and he can crack jokes that make others laugh and put the insult-hurling person on the spot, and often turn it into a comedic spar of words. Sometimes he can also cut through that tension with exaggerated self-mockery, which also makes the other guy go “WTF?”
There have been times when other guys tried to enlist my help in insulting him, or say stuff to me like “he’s such a jerk, isn’t he?” but I won’t have any of it and usually offer something cheesy or gushy, like “nah, he’s really awesome,” and that generally stops them in their tracks, because they never expect it and don’t know what to do next. So I guess the situation that you describe would never escalate to such a level that my husband would even get angry. The worst case for both of us is when a female acts all crazy trying to insult him. Then we just both have to get out of there.
“It’s great for the guy to feel this way and believe it. He just can’t demonstrate it outwardly. He can’t gush effusively about how great she is to her and the world. The minute he does that, she reacts like Marnie: She recoils at his touch, can’t stand sex with him, gets turned off and creeped out.”
My cousin who was my roommate at the time had a boyfriend announce to the world on Myspace how wonderful it was to be in love and that he just couldn’t contain himself and had to share it. My cousin was immediately suspicious because he had been posting back and forth with this other girl on Myspace who responded with, “aaaawww, your gf is so lucky to have a guy like you”. Turns out he was not writing about my cousin but was just trying to prove to the other girl how demonstrative with affection he can be if and when he were to ever fall in love.
It worked. He and the other girl started dating and they’re married now.
The majority of married women (with children) before World War I worked. Many, did things just like you mentioned.
Sassy. Okay. Suppose the hypothetical paratrooper–the real deal–is clean as a hound’s tooth, dresses in L. L. Bean casual, signals no edginess whatsoever.
We can presume he’d be forthright dealing with the world. He’s not only jumped out of airplanes, but he’s probably killed people in various cesspits of the world, and can handle equipment most guys wouldn’t recognize.
The question is, once you find out he’s a paratrooper, will that do for edginess even without signals?
This is kind of an exaggerated way of questioning whether real deal guys are screwed if they don’t go down to the leather store, and get a lip ring. If you’re real, do you have to fake it, too?
oh well thank God to the nerd that invented Internet
Al Gore says, “Your Welcome”.
Anacaona, oh I can be grosser than that. I pick his back pores and show the pickings to him. He’s always like “get that away from me!”
Richard Aubrey, in my opinion, not at all. The real deal is always preferable to the skin deep.
@Ted D
I was afraid I would and I did. My instruments aren’t manly (mostly winds, some keyboards…I own a bass, but it’s my least ability ). My extreme sport (triathlon and other multi-sports) didn’t make the cut (although I’m thinking of giving cyclocross a shot, does that fit in with BMX, which is the entry point for a lot of US cyclocross racers).
Given what’s been on my mind the past few days I realize while I was thinking I was raised beta, I was raised by a man who was that perfect mix. Yet, I think that if these women met him they’d never give him the time of day. The masculine he taught me has the edge (military family, he was a Naval Academy man) but was too quiet for today’s women. It had the provider beta aspects (in his last lucid moments he was concerned about the dog’s monthly heartworm meds, getting the sprinklers on for the summer, and arranging for lawn care and making sure I got them done).
I think too many women wouldn’t recognize the perfect mix because they have no idea what that really entails. It isn’t sexy, isn’t flashy, and it can be boring.
But it makes the world work in ways Mr. Tatooed Leatherjacket Motorcycle Kickerboxer never will.
@ Richard Aubrey
For me, if a handsome man told me that he was a paratrooper, I would be very fascinated. It fulfills one of the edgy parameters.
Knowing how to fight or specializing in a specific combat art (boxing, muay thai, mixed martial arts.)
He would get double points if he took me to a shooting range to show off his skills, or if he took me to a gym to show me some of his combat skills. It satisfies the edginess parameter because:
1. It’s naturally a part of who he is and he is good at it.
2. It’s extremely masculine.
It’s not a fake display. It’s just not outwardly apparent. I suggest that any man who has a non-outwardly apparent edginess trait show this trait off to a woman they are dating. It’s extremely attractive.
1. If you know how to fight or shoot, take your woman to a shooting range or gym to show her your skills.
2. If you play a sport, invite her to your games and show her your skills.
3. If you play in a band, or play an instrument, invite her to one of your shows or give her a private music lesson.
4. If you ride a motorcycle, show her your skills or offer to give her a ride.
All of those things aren’t apparent, from a purely physical standpoint, but they are very effective tingle inducers when they are demonstrated or shown off.
Re: NYC
I read somewhere that 90% of all the profits generated in the world funnel into NYC or London. This is why the real estate is so outrageous there. People to whom these profits flow have the wherewithall to purchase it, and the locals who value living there, hopefully, front-load it with taxes to keep the Masters of the Universe from swallowing everything in sight.
What was it Tom Wolfe said? “Hitler didn’t hate the Jews half as much as a Manhattan landlord hates his rent-controlled tenants.”
@Ana
My ex-wife would have me wear the same shirt several days in a row before I went to sea for deployment. She’d use it as a pillow case to have my scent around.
So I think this is fairly common.
@Everyone
Thank you for the well wishing.
@Herb
Dear Herb,
I am truly sorry to hear about your loss. Your father sounds like such a wonderful man and what a testament to your parents’ marriage! Please accept my condolences — I know how hard and heartbreaking it is to lose a beloved parent.
Kindest regards,
Jackie
PS: If it helps, mentioning the great things about your dad may ease some of the pain. I mention my mom and parents’ marriage here more than I ever do in real life. I don’t know why, but it heals something within. Talking about them, if you feel comfortable, can honor them and let them live on, in a kind of fashion. You and your mom are in my thoughts, Herb.
@J
“I also think it’s a myth that rural environments or small towns have nothing but upstanding young men, or even more upstanding young men than any other place. Or at least I’ve never seen any evidence for that claim.
There’s a surprising amount of alcohol and drug abuse in rural areas. Social life revolves around drinking because there’s not much else to do.”
—————————-
Co-signed!
I think there is some kind of Norman Rockwell Americana association with small towns. When, in my experience, everybody knows everyone else’s business, there is a distinct lack of opportunity and advancement and church/alcohol/meth are the principal recreations.
There was a story I was going to tell about scariness in a small town, but it’s best suited for another day/another thread.
You can watch the whole episode on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrQfvq9RfM0
@Ramble
Hi Ramble,
This is late in the thread, but I realized I might have sounded flippant in my answers to you about the Red Pill. It definitely causes a shift in consciousness that isn’t really about joking around. I truly meant no offense and hope you will accept my sincere apologies and well wishes–
@J
“Still, I wonder what it is that makes nerd boys pursue “alpha” chicks rather than nerd girls.”
I went to STEM Central University in Boston (actually, Cambridge, for the sticklers), and currently work in Silicon Valley, and by and large, nerd boys don’t pursue “alpha” chicks. The times that it happens, it tends to be the more “alpha” nerd guys, but that is a very small group. May I inquire if you’ve been watching too much “The Big Bang Theory” on TV
?
I think Hope had a pretty good assessment in her post #170. The ratios skew so heavily against guys that nerdy girls usually have no difficulties finding guys, unless they have one several circumstance: 1) they don’t like nerdy guys themselves, 2) they are significantly overweight or 3) they only want to focus on their “career” (though often times this is a diplomatic way to saying 1).
With such skewed ratios, they can often get quite hypergamic. Some of us reformed betas decided to open the field to non-nerdy girls, and that worked pretty well, at least in my case.
@Wudang
” One message they are left with is that rewards and success should be/is easy. Another message is that it is necessary to perceive yourself as having done good to feel good about yourself. There is a difference between self love/self worth/self aceptance which can and should be unconditional and confidence/belief in your abilities and perception of your qualitites.”
———————-
Hey Wudang!
Well said, sir. I think you really hit the nail on the head: Somewhere along the line accomplishment and self-value got conflated. Any pin-prick to their accomplishments (or lack thereof
) is taken as a personal slight.
This occurred just yesterday: I had to tell someone they made a mistake– and that I still like them lots– they just need to fix the error. I try to give these kind of folks criticisms in a “sandwich”: point out the good (bread), mention the error (PB & J), then mention how well they’ved solved something similar in the past (bread).
Sassy. I gather you’re talking about visceral reax.
I qualified with all the weapons in the rifle battalion except for heavy mortars which requires a special school that didn’t interest me. Going to a range where you can only shoot one shot at a time at a target that sits still at a range just out of rock-throwing and doesn’t shoot back would be like an F1 driver taking his gf for a ride in his VW from Peoria to Springfield. Even if she got tingled, he’d be bored absolutely silly. He might also wonder what’s up with somebody who got hot from that–rifle range or VW over the praries, whichever. I suppose that getting up close and personal helping her get the proper sight alignment or something might be interesting….
I competed in judo and lacrosse and the only woman I recall being interested was a judo club rookie who wanted me to teach her the hip throw. Without going into the mechanics of the hip throw, it should have struck me as being almost as good as an introduction. Missed that.
I once subdued and threw out a violent intruder at a fraternity party. All the women there were attending with their SO, so it didn’t do me much good in the social line.
You know what? I’d dump a woman who got hot watching me prepare to injure or kill somebody. There ought to be an adult female around somepace.
Mercy. What I said about the moron who suggested putting women on a pedestal needs to be reinforced. Eesh.
I would also consider certain types of humour to be “edgy”.
Part of why the “bad boy” characters are so appealing in TV/Movies is because they often have the wittiest lines.
Jackie, I wasn’t offended by anything you said to me. And, honestly, even after your explanation, I am still not sure what might have offended me.
No worries.
@Cooper (#174)
Hi Cooper,
I’ve read several of your posts and you sound like you really have your act together, head and shoulder above many of your contemporaries! That’s awesome!
I agree with J (as I do just about always– J is awesome, too), in NAWALT. There are tons of cute girls who would be eager to date someone like you. As for your female nerd seeking– what kind of nerdy activities do you like? Gaming? LARP? Anything with a Con?
There is a Doctor Who trivia night at a pub that is always packed, way in advance. There’s a lot of stuff on meetup.com that pertains to nerds of both genders. I’m looking forward to a film meetup that’s totally old school– watching and discussing classic B&W movies.
You might have to put yourself out there a little more, but I bet you’ll have fun and meet more people. Best of luck, Cooper–
@ Emily
I agree. That’s a good addition to the list.
There are quite a few examples of the edgy male comedian. Quite a few bad boys do fit this parameter as well.
Andrew Dice Clay and Dane Cook definitely popped into my head when you mentioned this.
@Ramble
Cool 8)
Sometimes it’s hard to tell tone on the internet. And being cute & joking around about a pink pill for chicks might have been taken the wrong way. Anyways, glad there’s no issue
OMG, I almost fainted when I read this. Gross!
+1
Zach: I grew up in a working class neighbourhood in an industrial city in Sweden and went to one of the two old universities. Now I am an expat in another European country. The last time I saw something threatful was a late night out in Stockholm (Manhattan is much more quiet and secure, at least Midtown) and walking to a football game between the biggest club of Stockholm and the biggest club of Gothenburg, when everybody was drunk at noon and glass shattered over the streets and supporters chanting about how much they hate each other.
“That’s insane to burn someone without provocation. Did you call the police?”
@J
They ran away before I could flag down a cop. I did manage to file a report, though. While I’m not one to believe in pseudoscience, I often feel that I emit an aura that brings out the worst in women.
Here’s a weird YouTube clip of hooligan kids who meet up on a residential street to fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K93lgg2ItXk&feature=related
@Kirk
I don’t care if you were emitting auras, rainbows or glitter– NO ONE should be assaulting you with a lit cigarette! Ouchouchouch!
And, by the way, that is assault and that girl should have been arrested. I hope your arm is feeling better.
@ Jackie
I was always under the impression that girls at nerdy activities are tired of getting unwanted attention. Like I remember reading one girl complaining on wizards.com that when she went to an MtG event, guys kept hitting on her.
@ ExNewYorker
Whoops. Formatting fail.
I wrote this:
Definitely. Girl’s in STEM are extremely choosy and/or slutty, and they can afford to be. A friend of mine in CS talks about how because the male-female ratio is around 10-1, she basically gets her pick of the bunch. From her stories of people she’s hooked up with, it seems like she acts like an alpha male, as she has a harem of guys that she regularly hooks up with.
I’d never consider a STEM girl unless she showed me strong IOIs and I had serious evidence that she isn’t the kind to try out one boyfriend after another.
@Jackie
Thanks for the kind words.
As for my nerdy-activities:
I do play a lot of video-games.
In the gaming realm, I’d be considered a hardcore-casual – as I usually don’t play MMOs, but I still spend a lot of time gaming.
(ex. I’ll spend nights playing RedDeadRedemption/Skyrim/BF3, over LoL/WoW/SWTOR – almost always.)
That, as well as having a near encyclopedic memory of movies/TV-series.
I don’t have many friends whom share my enjoyment of games.
I’d love to have a gang of friends that would like spending an entire night playing Risk, or Settlers of Catan, but I unfortunitely do not associate with anything close to a stereotypical clique of geeks. (not knocking – just I’m literally the only nerd of my friends)
For example, if I wanted to share that I had a BF3 match, and went 80:31 (like I did the other night, on a 500% ticket server) they’ll immediately change the subject.
I’ve never considered finding a girl who shares my interest in VGs as even remotely plausable. *shrugs*
@INTJ (#209)
Well, I can only speak for myself: If at a “nerdy” event, a guy came up to me, I would be flattered.
Maybe some girls hate it.
Probably some girls will be less than graceful in declining your attentions. But I think that –unpleasant as it may be– rejection is something we all have to face in pursuing what we desire.
For me, at least, that has been true about everything I really wanted to achieve– lotsa failed attempts before things really came together. Just my 3 cents
@Cooper
Please don’t give up– you sound like a total catch! Hope met her husband through gaming. I know a lot of chicks who like Skyrim. My brother let me play the latest Call of Duty over Easter– it was really fun!
Maybe you should ask Hope for more details? She is also very very good with advice.
PS: Settlers of Catan is awesome.
Lots of girls like this stuff. Really!
Susan, sorry! Didn’t mean to gross you out.
INTJ, yes, nerdy girls can be really picky. I’ve usually befriended girls who are already in relationships, but the ones who “play the field” can definitely make a bad name for the rest of us.
Cooper, I think as you get older video games will become a more periphery activity. My husband and I met in WoW, but we don’t play anymore. It’s better to focus on finding someone who has good characteristics for the long haul. If the only thing that bonded us was our gaming habit, we’d be in trouble now.
Jackie, I’ve got to admit I have a hard time straying from ‘MGTOW’ behavoir.
I’ve faced unrequited feelings – oneitis – far too much to bother indicating interest, anymore.
I’ve been witness to girls say they want a certian particular type of guy, then nealy immediately choose the opposite. I’ve always been the nice option, what I think to be the ‘dependable’ option. But I’m never selected.
My group of friends has one guy that is our definitive AMOG. When he’s not around, (he’ll be at a FWBs’ apt, unless we have plans to go out) the girls of our group will talk trash about how much of a “man-whore” he is.
Nearly a year ago, one of our girl-friends hooked up with him. All the other girls gave her such a hard time for hook up with the “jerk.”
Within maybe a month, the girl that had given the first the hardest time, had done the same. (along with similar shaming, afterwards)
Then every once in a while, the girls will bring around a ‘new-comer’ (I always foolishly think they’re trying to hook me, or one of the other ‘beta orbiters’, up), they’ll even tell them to watch out for him, cause he has a lot of FWBs. It is rare that the new girl doesn’t sleep with him.
I’ve come to identify with this term “beta orbiter,” (not that I like to) cause the girls seem to much rather hang out me, talk with me, and ask things of me – all but when it comes to getting some sex.
Oddly enough, I even think I’m better looking than him, albiet shorter. (But that’s entirely uncorroborated – obviously.)
In college, I even had a girl deny going out with me cause , and I quote, ” seem[ed] to be looking for something too serious.”
She was sleeping with some other jerk by the following weekend.
Re:NAWALT
This is something I have to try to continously keep conscious of.
Not knocking you for liking that sort of guy, but in my eyes (and most other guys) not reacting forcefully to that sort of comment would classify him as a p**sy. That’s a direct challenge to your manhood, and by turning it down, backing off and allowing it to stand, you might as well be screaming at the top of your lungs “Beta! Beta! Beta!”
But not allowing it to stand is not synonymous with physically attacking the guy. For example, the day after my wife and I got engaged, we were at a bar with a relatively well-known local band. The bassist, who rather liked her, actually tried to physically edge me out of the group conversation and started hitting on her. He was a big guy too, and probably had six inches and 30 pounds on me. I didn’t react forcefully or physically, I simply tapped him on the shoulder, said “excuse me” and met his eyes, at which point he backed away, made room for me, and turned his attention to one of the other women for the rest of the evening.
Now, he didn’t know that I was a full contact fighter at the time, or that I had a .38 Smith and Wesson mini loaded with Black Talon in my pocket. But he backed down nonetheless. The problem is that physical confrontation is not only dangerous, but potentially deadly; as Trayvon Martin learned to his detriment, you can never really know who is able and willing to kill you in an instant. So, the goal should always be to achieve your objective using the minimum amount of conflict required.
Sure, it feels great to physically dominate another man. I once had both my arms covered in another guy’s blood all the way down to my elbows after a fight in a nightclub, and it was a serious adrenaline rush. I quite enjoyed it. But getting physical right away is really not a smart move, especially when the other guy’s only offense is verbal. Was the guy trying to poach your girlfriend being a dick? To be sure. Did he need to be confronted in some fashion? Yes, most likely. But most trained fighters will tell you that taking it to the physical when you still have other options is both unwise and amateurish. If you can achieve the same result with a simple comment, as Hope suggested her husband would, doesn’t that make sense?
The most dangerous fighter I ever knew – I once saw him beat the absolute hell out of the point fighter who was ranked 12th in the nation at the time – used to teach us that the very best self-defense move is to spin, put one foot in front of the other, and keep doing that until you reach the exit. Not only have I never known anyone who was less of a pussy than him, but he is now married to a very pretty woman 18 years his junior whose nickname is Penthouse. If you met him, I don’t think you’d conclude he is anything but an alpha’s alpha.
@Hope
“INTJ, yes, nerdy girls can be really picky. I’ve usually befriended girls who are already in relationships, but the ones who “play the field” can definitely make a bad name for the rest of us.”
*Laugh* Yeah, they can be. That’s why I always laugh when some of the commenters (here at HUS and elsewhere) complain that STEM guys need to date STEM girls, or stop pursuing the “cheerleaders” or “alpha” girls, or that we need to give our fellow “intelligent” women a chance or stick to “assortive” dating. At STEM Central, it was our first preference to date a fellow STEM Central girl, for a variety of reasons, including logistics, and likelihood of commonality in interests. But when the M:F ratio is 3:1 undergrad (and even worse, 10:1 in grad school), the numbers are against us guys, and lots of us wound up the Sahara Desert of the SMP. Occasionally, the bolder ones among us STEM guys would talk to girls outside STEM Central, but unless the guy was a natural, the awkwardness would out us immediately as STEM guys, so back to square one. So no, your average MIT student would not likely be dating any BU cheerleader…
Now, add a few years of work experience, meeting a larger variety of people due to work (as opposed to all STEM people), and getting some confidence, due to work, travel and outside hobbies, and you find that a larger variety of women become possible partners (especially if one has some game principles in mind). At that point, there’s no need to limit oneself that way…heck, it’s nice having a level of polarity.
Here’s a weird YouTube clip of hooligan kids who meet up on a residential street to fight.
Those little slap-fighting dweebs have absolutely no idea what they’re doing. If you want to see someone who knows how to fight, check out this guy, presumably a boxer, getting attacked in public by four or five guys at once. Notice how he keeps moving at all times, uses their bodies to impede each other, and controls the gap by stepping into their attacks. He also conserves his motion; even when his punches miss, they don’t throw him off balance or leave him exposed for more than a moment.
@Richard,
That look works well for me. No spitting on the sidewalk required.
However, after reading Sassy’s list, it occurred to me that I had a few other edgy traits in place already (martial arts, wrestling, musician, loner), so it fits my identity.
Cooper,
That sucks.
It sounds like those girls weren’t good relationship bets anyways, so you dodged a few bullets there. They clearly have no self-control, which is never a good trait in a LTR partner. There are a lot of girls out there who are also looking for something “serious”, so there’s no need to waste your time on somebody who doesn’t appreciate that.
Feel free to ignore my advice, but maybe it would be a good idea for you to expand your social circle and meet new people. I’m not saying that you have to ditch your old friends or anything, but IME sluts tend to befriend other sluts. So if you want a girl who won’t automatically jump on the AMOG, you might need to look outside of that particular friend group.
That story’s so common it’s almost become a cliche. I’ve seen it play out that way in many different friend groups. Definitely one of the main reasons that led me to take the red pill.
Jon. I’m glad for you that the look works. I’m not so happy to find out that it works at all.
“On the other hand, “stop being a turkey” is hilarious. I don’t even know what he means, but it makes me laugh. ”
Retro insults are funny. I think the sweet spot would be lingo from “Happy Days”. Think about it – when you watch “West Side Story”, the formerly threatening thugs are now hilariously lame. Hey, Daddy-O!
Cooper said:
“You say I “need to select women very carefully,” but if I were to discuss any sort of relationship topic (ie. Where do you see this going? ect.) I’d be catagorized as ‘having a vagina.’”
___________________________
You might know this already, but I feel compelled to speak anyway. This is my take on it, and some of you PUA types might find fault here. I don’t care. I have exactly what I want in a girl – didn’t settle at all – and there aren’t too many men that can say that.
First, partner selection is paramount. People tell you all kinds of things without meaning to – so pay attention. Drop ‘em and un-ass the Area of Operations if they exhibit deal-breaker behavior.
You may also benefit from a little tweak in your frame:
YOU are the prize. She’s auditioning to be a part of the Cooper Show, and if she can’t hack it, well, there’s another gal right behind her waiting for her chance. Good luck and don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out SweetThang…
Internalize that shit. Live it. Become it.
How does Mr. Cooper – creator, producer, writer, and pure genius behind The Cooper Show (you best stand when he comes in the room) – how does HE tell a girl he’s into her?
Well, Mr. Cooper doesn’t ask questions. He makes statements. He’ll say jokingly at first,”I figured out something I’ve been pondering for a bit.”
“Oh yeah? What’s that?” the current object of his affections purrs.
He looks right into her eyes for this one, not breaking contact until she does, “I’m not going to date anyone else for a bit. I like you and I want to see where this goes. Let me know if you’re dating anyone else.”
See that? Declarative statements, and orders to comply with a (reasonable) request. None of this questioning her about “feelings”. Mr. Cooper doesn’t care what comes out of her mouth just now, he’s interested in what she’ll DO. He cares about her ACTIONS not her WORDS. He’s doing her a favor by mentioning his intentions. Mr Cooper isn’t worried about the future, either, because he’s got that shit on lock-down. He knows things will work out for him, whether with this girl or another.
Once you get this attitude to sink into your bones, you’ll see that it’s not arrogance. Dude, the fact of the matter is that most people are wastes of good carbon. They have no mission, no discipline, no reason for breathing. If that’s not you, then it’s a fucking NECESSITY that you screen those remoras out of your life.
Think about it – you want a girl that’s attractive, nice, loyal, thoughtful, fair, and who has your back. That’s a valuable human being right there. That kind of girl screens guys out constantly because she doesn’t want to waste effort on losers. You’re just doing what attractive women have done for thousands of years.
–pulls out soapbox–
I think getting this attitude is about 25% Game and maybe 75% actually having your shit together. If you’re fat, drop the weight. If you’re skinny, hit the gym. If you’re shy, join Toastmasters, volunteer, and talk to 3 strangers a day. If you’re a pussy, come to Uncle Dogsquat’s Saturday morning Krav Maga class. If you’re dumb, read books, go to class, and turn off the TV.
Put video games in the same category as alcohol – it’s nice to enjoy a 33 year old Balvenie (or another Speyside whisky of your choice, of course) once in awhile. Drinking every night and all weekend is a recipe for mediocrity, though. So it is with video games.
Seriously – it’s not a bad a goal to set for yourself:
Become the man that The Girl Of Your Dreams would tingle for.
This seems kind of beta and supplicating at first, and maybe it is. It doesn’t stay that way for long, though. You build a career, live honorably, make friends and network with other interesting people, improve upon yourself – and things start happening for you. People (not just girls) notice guys like that. Those guys are very rare, and people want those guys on their team. People will give those guys opportunities, and feel good about helping out.
Do it for six months. You’ll know I’m right when women you work with start asking if you’re single. After a year of it that same woman will try to tease you because all the gals have crushes on you.
Something will snap in your head when you experience this. It’s mindblowing – the single (or unhappily married) women kind of “present” themselves to you. They linger in your area, do a lot of hair flipping, and lean over you to get things. They try and touch you a lot. The shy ones will stare at you,and they blush furiously when you smile and say,”Hi! You look nice today!”
When you read something like “I’m not going to date anyone else for a bit. I like you and I want to see where this goes. Let me know if you’re dating anyone else,” and you wonder why any guy would beat around the bush with this kind of stuff, you’re living right.
Then, my friend…then you go hunt for the one you want.
Krav Maga?
Tingles……………….tingles everywhere.
Richard Aubrey said:
“So, we have a well-groomed paratrooper whose tat is a parachute and the words “death from above”. No rings, no beard, takes daily showers.
IOW, the real deal, not a combination of signals.”
___________________________
I am picking up what you’re putting down.
I’m working on my undergrad after a couple of hitches as a Marine grunt and some other stuff. Some of the tough guy posturing in the halls and the bars makes me smile.
I have a buddy who had his rifle shot out of his hands, and then killed the shooter with his K Bar. The same guy participated in a no-shit bayonet charge – seriously. They were in long fight with some Fedayeen Saddam types, and were unable to get resupply or supporting fires. They didn’t want to leave their wounded behind, so when they got down to less than ten rounds per man, the Lt. yelled out,”FIX BAYONETS!”
They went a chargin’ and a hollerin’ across a highway and into a village. They took about 50 well armed prisoners with 21 Marines and no ammo.
That dude is maybe 5’7″ and 150 lbs. He in college now and wants to be an English teacher. He’s a super nice guy, too – you’d never know that about him unless you’d seen it for yourself.
Football players acting tough is actually kind of cute. They’re like puppies practicing growls. Wolves like my friend don’t broadcast anything.
Yes, Sassy – that’s Hebrew for “breakfast pastry”.
@ Dogsquat
No it isn’t. I know what krav maga is. It’s an Israeli inspired fighting and defensive technique.
I’ll give you bonus tingles for being cheeky though.
Back to the “perfect mix” idea, although it’s often treated as a joke in the services when I was asked for possible phrases for my father’s memorial today the one I suggested, and that my mother choose, is one that is for most people a movie title:
An Officer and a Gentleman
I think that is a pretty good one word summary of it. An officer is a man who can both lead and follow, who takes risks, exercises authority, and accepts responsibility. A gentleman is a person both of position and respect but one who takes care to be respectful to others as well as to care for those below him.
That would seem to be both alpha and beta. The ability to be in charge but to tempter that with caring and morality.
What it isn’t, except when needed, is edgy.
I emphasized those words for a reason because I think it gets to the whole douche-bag problem. Edgy, as in violent, assertive, controlling, is something the perfect mix will exercise when needed to protect himself and his (the later may be broadly read as “what he is pledged to protect”. He doesn’t use it merely to get his latest toy. That is the realm of the douche-bag.
The thing is, the perfect mix, in restraining his edginess, expects a loyalty in return. When a woman repays that restraint by putting him into the “nice guy” box she’ll soon learn the edginess will only show up to screw her, not protect her.
He is also why I get upset with MRAs. Many MRAs want to free men from that restraint, not to be PUAs but to free them from the responsibility to protect and support, even to their own determent. To me MRAs of that stripe are either merely a response to the breakdown or the repeat of the worst of feminism with men. They want to finish breaking the world.
So, ladies, could you with a straight face call the man who is wooing you an Officer and a Gentleman in the most idealistic reading of those words (in aspiration even if he falls short) instead of the most cynical? If so, he’s one of Susan’s keepers and you shouldn’t be asking ” but what could I be passing up later” but “can I ever get this lucky again”.
For those wondering if I have a phrase for his counterpart, I do, wife and mother.
“Krav Maga?
Tingles……………….tingles everywhere.”
I have always thought that the confidence and fearlesness that comes from martial arts is attractive to women and that a woman finding out you do a martial art might be a small attraction booster but never knew it ranked so highly as a tingle producer as I get the impression it does in this thread. It makes perfect sense to me that it does but the feeling I have had was that it did not do more than give a tiny attraction boost to some but far from all women. I`m very glad to find out it does more than that as I have my first thai boxing lesson in a couple of weeks.
From the department of too soon old, too late smart, I was told and think it may be true, that you don’t have to tell anybody.
I competed, as I said, in lax and judo. Took a “self defense course” which is what we told the university. Actually, it was scientific dirty fighting.
I told few people, conversations rarely going in that direction.
But, said a couple of folks, guys who relish contact/combat sports, etc. have a confidence different from that provided by fitness by itself, or general competence.
It’s different, said they, on its subliminal effect.
Besides, as with some old guy who called himself “Thorfinn Skullcleaver” there’s likely to be some punk who feels called to say, “Oh yeah?” And it’s tiresome, unless he gets lucky. So I didn’t say much about it.
“But, said a couple of folks, guys who relish contact/combat sports, etc. have a confidence different from that provided by fitness by itself, or general competence.
It’s different, said they, on its subliminal effect.”
This is most certainly true. The Krav Maga teachers I had were way more confident and sexure and alpha than the average guy and the same apears to be the case with the thai boxing people I am going to learn from now. Generally martial arts guys seem to me to also be rather nice/warm and strongly principled. A woman looking for a unicorn should really search in martial arts groups.
+1…
It’s not even bad to drink a PBR, but if that’s all you got then you’re not bringing it.
I might read comics, but I can understand (and write software to analyze) complex mathematical models (of machines or markets). I play D&D but I read classics. I play and write music. I’m a former multi-sport athlete and will be again this year.
Become someone worthwhile, it’s good for you. Forget about the girl getting part of it and just do it for you.
just for grins, google up—– yon “punishers’ ball”— and look at the women.
Also get Luttrell’s “Lone Survivor” and check out the pix of his teammates’ unfortunate SOs.
I believe Barbara Cartland said of her characters that when a man seduces a woman he is not naked, he is wearing a uniform.
J: Hope is an 8, easily. Me, I think I am a 5 (average) but the Mrs. calls me an 8. Actually, given the OKcupid surveys, we all know that typical men are below average, so, I know women see me as a 3.5, maybe 4. Still, this 4 has gotten casual sex invites from strangers. I don’t get it. Attraction is weird like that.
Richard said:
“Besides, as with some old guy who called himself “Thorfinn Skullcleaver” there’s likely to be some punk who feels called to say, “Oh yeah?” And it’s tiresome, unless he gets lucky. So I didn’t say much about it.”
__________________
I’m not too up on my Viking history, but if old Earl Skullcleaver lived his days like Miyamoto Musashi or Jim from Blazing Saddles did, I get what you’re saying.
I am not a badass by any means – I’ve had my ass kicked before – more than once, actually. I also don’t really enjoy fighting. I used to, but as I’ve gotten my head on rather-more-or-less, I realize what an idiot I was as a younger guy. These days I’m usually carrying concealed, anyway, and it is morally reprehensible to allow a situation to escalate when that’s a part of the equation. Getting insulted is just something one should accept without complaint/avoid in the first place when armed.
I do really, really like Krav, though. Good workout, a little extra pocket money, and generally nice people. I proselytize a little to young guys, too, because so much of what was considered Manly has been bleached from our culture.
The average 20 year old college kid can’t fix anything, doesn’t know how to build anything (bongs being a notable exception), and would die of exposure in minutes if you told him Room Service stopped an hour ago.
At some level, a lot of these kids know that. They feel that something’s missing, like they’re not whole. It’s hard for them to take pride in themselves sometimes, because so much of what they’re told to do is nebulous and of no concrete value. I saw that a lot with some of the Occupy Wall Street guys I talked with awhile ago. They were given a faulty script to follow, did so, and are now basically useless – to themselves and everyone else. That’s not a good place to be as a man.
Don’t get me wrong – I don’t think it’s entirely the kids’ fault, nor do I find them less capable or anything. They’re exactly what they’ve been raised to be, which is half man, half….something else.
Learning to handle physical confrontation is a good way to address that, at least in part. The “good” kids call the cops or pray for a bouncer if somebody hassles them. That act rubs their nose in how useless their upbringing has been, and highlights how broken the system is. It guts their self-worth. In that moment, they’re paying for all the do-gooder feminized teachers (and some bad lawyers) who decided that, even though it’s life-or-death, they shouldn’t have certain tools because “good” boys don’t do that sort of thing. Again, it’s not good for them as men.
Some ethical, practical instruction in real fighting fills part of that hole. Instead of being some taboo subject, they are shown the real deal. It’s also useful to teach some of these sheltered kids that there are For Real Bad Guys out there – people who don’t “listen to reason” and don’t care who you voted for.
I’m a pretty worried about our country, and the West in general. I’ve got this fear that I’ll be eighty fucking years old, and somebody’s gonna have to wheel Ol’ Grampa Dogsquat out to the barricades to fight the barbarians because the younger guys are organizing a sit-in or sobbing hysterically while signing petitions. Teaching a little Intro to Krav class once in awhile helps me stuff that fear down, even though I’m probably just kidding myself.
Man, I’m chatty today.
dog.
I get what you’re saying. But the sensei’s instruction that the best thing to do in case of trouble is to unass the area conflicts with the citizen’s duty to leave the area cleaner than he found it. Or maybe that was the Boy Scouts.
The emotional conflict between the sheep and the sheep dogs is pretty strong. The latter remind the former that there are wolves. But that’s scary, so the sheep slag the sheep dogs. The sheep dogs–regulars–know that the sheeps’ insistence on pacifism increases the likelihood of a wolf attack–metaphor alert–and that the sheep are actually making things dangerous for those congenitally destined for sheep dog duty. The regulars have to die hard to provide time for the sheep puppies to get trained up to take care of the sheep. That pisses off the regulars/sheep dogs no end. As it should
For fun, go to youtube. Search for “roger moore” “thomas atkins”. What if Tommy goes on strike? Your colleagues may survive.
IMO, confidence is a tell or proxy for competence in dealing with the real world. Forget computers.
I once discussed this situation with some younger guys. Learn to fight, I said, and learn serious first aid. As in sucking chest wounds and eviscerations. Not only will that provide confidence, you may need it, as I have needed both in my life, neither as it happens on military duty. Then go on to other meat-world competences.
If we were to hypothesize a camping trip, the ability to manage all the issues involved in camping would generate tingles, would they not? In which case, it’s a two-fer. Tingles and the ability to manage extremely difficult circumstances. Can’t lose.
And women who get all lubed up at the sight of a leather jacket and a Harley…might want to find a wolf.
Ref Thomas Atkins.
It is said that, after the Battle of Waterloo, the Duke of Wellington rode the dismal field. He f0und a spot held to the last by a Guards company. One seemed to be alive. The Duke dismounted and held the man until he died. What can I do for you, the Duke asked. Remember me, the Guardsman said.
Years later when the Duke was in the position we would call Secretary of Defense, he was asked about a personnel form. Bundles were sent to each unit. The example for filling it out–we would call it the Morning Report or DA-1– included the name of a hypothetical soldier. The Duke insisted the name be “Thomas Atkins”. That being the name he was asked to remember.
Hence “Tommy”.
“The Widow” refers to Queen Victoria.
@Herb
My condolences about your dad.
I’m not sure I got that far in the book, but I agree it’s a nice sentiment.
??? That was relatively early, did you got offended at the beginning and didn’t finished it? Just curious.
Al Gore says, “Your Welcome”.
Heh love that joke.
Anacaona, oh I can be grosser than that. I pick his back pores and show the pickings to him. He’s always like “get that away from me!”
Hubby doesn’t has clogged pores or dandruff so…how about getting some of his pub hairs in my teeth after oral and not getting upset over it?
PS: Settlers of Catan is awesome. Lots of girls like this stuff. Really!
Among the many reasons I wanted to have kids is to finally have enough players for Settlers I’m always dissapointed when in boardgame night with our friends we don’t get to play at least once. Love that game!
@ Anacaona
Settlers of Catan is so addictive isn’t it?
Though I can’t wait till I have kids and they’re old enough for me to DM a D&D campaign with them.
Richard Aubrey said:
“But the sensei’s instruction that the best thing to do in case of trouble is to unass the area conflicts with the citizen’s duty to leave the area cleaner than he found it. Or maybe that was the Boy Scouts.”
____________________________
I get it, but Kipling said it best:
You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:
We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.
For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!
After sitting through a few years of classes at an ultra-liberal State University, I have come to the conclusion that I hate a sizable percentage of sheep. They bleat and bleat about human rights and social justice and the plight of the downtrodden and the high price of gas, sure that somebody will do something.
Then you go do something, and all they can do is bitch and whine because – guess what, Mr. Humanities Professor – it’s real fuckin’ ugly on the sharp end of things. But everything’s crystal clear to those types because they’ve never done shit in the real world. I hate their pity and their smug superiority and their false outrage and their not-so-subtle insults.
Maybe it was worth it once. This last go-round was pretty tough on me. Struggling out of the pit I was in, and then paying money to hear what a good percentage of people think about my buddies – those sheep deserve whatever they get. On a very, very good day I can muster up a shred of perverse pride in it. Most days, though, I wouldn’t piss in their mouths if their tongue was on fire.
I ain’t a bloomin’ fool anymore, and I’m done doing stuff for the “greater good”. In small groups, or one human being to another – I’m happy to help out if I can. It’s a life goal, though, to vomit directly on the shoes of a professor or a politician that says anything about “duty” or “love of country” or “sacrifice” to me.
Unfortunately, this show has been called out for being racist: the lack of black characters apparently means it’s inherently racist.
VD: Yeah, ideally people should avoid picking a fight with you without even really knowing why. Or at least by a “You got to be kidding me” look.
VD: “Those little slap-fighting dweebs have absolutely no idea what they’re doing.” Which is totally besides my point, which is the weird fact that football firms have kind of “youth academies” and that they sometimes meet up to fight in an organized fashion with someone even filming the event.
I found the clip when actually looking for footage how it might look around the stadia before important games between strong rivals. Actually there is not much of physical violence or beatings around the stadia, but a lot of symbolic violence, so to speak, that is intimidating to a newcomer. And what I wanted to say is that the way I live my life I don’t even see people picking a fight or expressing symbolic violence more often than a couple of times per decade. And in, for me, easily aviodable situations. I could have called a taxi instead of walking through the whole city centre and I could have gone to the football stadium directly from another angle to avoid the two “dangerous” entrances.
@INTJ
Yes kids might not be cheap labor anymore they are cheap game companions till they old enough to hate your guts and yell “you are ruining my life!”
@Hope
I wanted to cosign the diffusing violence with humor my husband would had said “it looks like someone volunteered to lead the way” move to the back of the file and let the “big mouth” try to put his money where his mouth was. That usually shuts them up nicely. Hubby does knows self defense but he will only use it as a last resort and I like it that way. Nothing makes me feel the “fly or fight” response than a man prone to violent outbursts, or that think violence first asks questions later, YMMV.
Lurker, thanks for posting the link to the show on Youtube.
But I have to ask everybody – is it just my set-up (Firefox on Linux/Fedora) using Adobe flash version 11, or is it them? Every video I tried on Youtube looks awful, like one color is missing (usually, but not always, red). It’s been that way for 3 days now for me.
Anyway, the episode left me feeling weird. All the characters – including the parents – seemed incredibly, almost unbelievably, immature to me. The girls seemed more like 15 than 24.
Are they really representative? If so, I’m worried in a way I didn’t expect.
It does sound interesting from a sociological perspective. But man, it sure doesn’t sound like something I’d want to watch. Sounds like non stop cringing.
I wasn’t a fan of Sex and the City but I could see it’s appeal. If you took away the stylish outfits and the clever banter and the lovely apartments and the casualness of the casual sex, you’d have a rather grim show indeed. It sounds like that’s what Girls is going for.
Dogsquat
Read every word; loved every minute doing so. A handout should be made of your thoughts and it should be mandatory reading for every 18 year old guy on his birthday.
It’s good to see you, Mr. M unson. I hadn’t noticed posts from you since you last mentioned having another round of chemo about a week ago. I hope you’re feeling okay.
Thanks, Munson. I’m usually pretty upbeat, but I had a hard night last night. I’m a bitter, judgmental old fart sometimes.
Dogs…another Kipling poem that isn’t nearly as well known:
The last of the Light Brigade
David, all grunts love Kipling.
This one became my favorite after picking up Sergeant:
http://www.battlepoetry.com/kip/heathen/heathen.htm
But when I was a (more) dumb ass Lance Corporal, I liked his poem called “Cells”:
I started o’ canteen porter, I finished o’ canteen beer,
But a dose o’ gin that a mate slipped in, it was that that brought me here.
‘Twas that and an extry double Guard that rubbed my nose in the dirt;
But I fell away with the Corp’ral’s stock
and the best of the Corp’ral’s shirt.
I left my cap in a public-house, my boots in the public road,
And Lord knows where, and I don’t care, my belt and my tunic goed;
They’ll stop my pay, they’ll cut away the stripes I used to wear,
But I left my mark on the Corp’ral’s face, and I think he’ll keep it there!
There was a mil sci fi book in which the author did a suffix, recounting the time a Brit battalion visited the US for joint training. The Brit SGM presented the American SGM with a luxuriously bound book of Kipling.
Yeah, grunts love Kipling.
I’ll try to recall the name.
The Master doesn’t disappoint. See the Lama and the old soldier in Kim, discussing violence. “there is no merit in killing men, as I surely know. But t’would be an ill world for weaponless dreamers if evil men were not now and then slain.”
Try not misting up no matter how many times you read “Daughter of The Regiment” or “Without Benefit of Clergy”.
At some level, a lot of these kids know that. They feel that something’s missing, like they’re not whole. It’s hard for them to take pride in themselves sometimes, because so much of what they’re told to do is nebulous and of no concrete value. I saw that a lot with some of the Occupy Wall Street guys I talked with awhile ago. They were given a faulty script to follow, did so, and are now basically useless – to themselves and everyone else. That’s not a good place to be as a man.
Don’t get me wrong – I don’t think it’s entirely the kids’ fault, nor do I find them less capable or anything. They’re exactly what they’ve been raised to be, which is half man, half….something else.
Learning to handle physical confrontation is a good way to address that, at least in part. The “good” kids call the cops or pray for a bouncer if somebody hassles them. That act rubs their nose in how useless their upbringing has been, and highlights how broken the system is. It guts their self-worth. In that moment, they’re paying for all the do-gooder feminized teachers (and some bad lawyers) who decided that, even though it’s life-or-death, they shouldn’t have certain tools because “good” boys don’t do that sort of thing. Again, it’s not good for them as men.
Some ethical, practical instruction in real fighting fills part of that hole. Instead of being some taboo subject, they are shown the real deal. It’s also useful to teach some of these sheltered kids that there are For Real Bad Guys out there – people who don’t “listen to reason” and don’t care who you voted for.
Because imitation is the sincerest form of flattery….
STEEL ON MF’N TARGET
Keep dropping the wisdom Dogsquat.
P.S. If you are ever in the Chicagoland area, I’d love to meet up with you and just grab a few beers.
@David:
Charge of the Light Brigade is well known enough to be a
@Dogsquat
For a long time my favorite Kipling has been The Betrothed. I think it’s probably the official Kipling of the “women are exotic pets” society:
Long ago I posted it on LJ about how much men should value women…some anonymous poster had the courage to call me an asshole. Still have some pride in that.
Herb…something missing from your above comment
I have never figured out whether Maggie gave him an ultimatum. Lips that touch tobacco will never taste mine.
Ultimata are deal-breakers.
@David
Opps, yeah, it’s an Iron Maiden song.
@Herb
Heh very good parody although he/she is missing “My thriving manhood” I like that one :p
@Ana
I’d post a link but the only location I know is on FetLife and you’d need an account (which are free but I don’t think it’s your thing).
I picked that particular paragraph (out of 15 or so) for the bad grammar part.
I’ve seen all three books in B&N and Target. I didn’t check to see if they’ve been edited.
I went to STEM Central University in Boston (actually, Cambridge, for the sticklers), and currently work in Silicon Valley, and by and large, nerd boys don’t pursue “alpha” chicks. The times that it happens, it tends to be the more “alpha” nerd guys, but that is a very small group. May I inquire if you’ve been watching too much “The Big Bang Theory” on TV ?
Actually I love that show
The Jacqueline story is a true one though. (I’m referencing a comment I made on the “50 Shades of Gray” thread about my being passed over by a nerd boy forf an alpha girl.) The guy in it was not a STEM major, but more the type who would have ended up a professor in a liberal arts field. To tell the truth, I can’t say that I attracted a lot STEM guys (with the exception of a science TA I almost married) or even saw much of them in college. It was a big campus, and it was laid out with liberal arts on one end in the older buildings and STEM further away on the edge of campus in newer buildings. It made for a sort of segregated campus. There wasn’t a lot of mixing.
Who has watched Girls’ episode 2?
It was very interesting.
@Joe
Nerd-girl seems to be something like the bookish quiet type who’s a little goth, reads poetry and smokes in high school, and follows up by majoring in Gothe, Nitche and indi music/cinema in college (but I’m guessing about that.
I suppose I was the 70s equivalent of that. Long hair parted in the middle, black turtleneck sweaters, blue jeans or black tights under a skirt. Intellectual and artsy, not quite a loner, but a bookish introvert.
@Cooper
I don’t think nerdgirls are necessarily unattractive, but they certainly aren’t social butterflies who dress to attract attention.
@Kirk
They ran away before I could flag down a cop.
I did manage to file a report, though.
Good! They have probably done it before and they’ll do it again. This will increase the chances of getting caught.
While I’m not one to believe in pseudoscience, I often feel that I emit an aura that brings out the worst in women.
At the risk of sounding callous, if you have an awareness of that, it’s probably true. When I was in high school, I was the victim of some unprovoked attacks from some female bullies. I somehow looked like a victim. I changed mylook and body language a bit, and the bullying stopped. If this sort of thing happens to you often, there might well be something in the way you look or carry yourself that makes you look like an easy mark.
@Jackie
I agree with J (as I do just about always– J is awesome, too),
Thanks, sweetie. That’s so nice of you!
@Ana
I read “The Red Tent” over ten years ago, so I don’t recall how far I got into it. I do remember that the virginity ritual scene, for which there is no historical or anthropological model, really offended me. At that point, I realized that the author had her own agenda–proving a matriarchal Hebrew culture that never existed. I may have quit at that point, but I honestly don’t remember.
@OTC
I hear you. It’s funny but classical good-looking and sexy don’t always equate with men. Many of the movie stars that other women regard as gorgeous–Brad Pitt, Leo Di Caprio–are too pretty for me. My husband has a nice blend of rugged and pretty features–big brown eyes in Roman coin sort of face, heavy beard. One of the sexiest guys I know, however, has sort of leonine features, a bald head and a goatee. He looks vaguely like Ben Kingsley with a better nose.
@Cooper
Yeah, I saw “Girls” last night. It was amazingly realistic in its depiction of that lifestyle. I liked it. I think it’s the anti-SATC; it’s a cautionary tale.
Finally saw Girls. I found it entertaining and would definitely check out more episodes. All in all, taking it with a grain of salt I found the characters and their situations pretty humorous.
Honestly, I don’t think Adam is that bad. He’s rude, clueless, and immature but he doesn’t strike me as Machiavellian (come on, that chick was talking too much!). He’s living in the moment and is clearly not that into the main girl — definitely a FWB arrangement without any real friendship or emotional connection — and for some reason Hannah (that’s her name right?) seems content for to fight for the scraps of his attention. She’s trying to force it to become something more, but if she was honest with herself she wouldn’t be closing her eyes to the things about him she doesn’t want to see.
That said, there’s no way I’d personally date Adam. In my opinion, he’s a loser but honestly, so is Hannah right now. They both have a lot of maturing to do before either is ready for something more serious. On a sidenote: As a 20-something college grad living in NYC, Adam’s grungy brooklyn apt made me laugh! Reminded me of friends’ lofts! (Though, I gotta say, it also highlights why Adam is a sad character in my eyes. He has no idea what he’s doing with his life, and while I know a lot of Gen Y kids are in the same boat I’m so glad not to be there with them! I figured out my life goals early and have worked to cross them of the list
As for Charlie, I thought the actor was cute! However, him and the girlfriend are a total mismatch. His supplicating behavior would turn most girls off, but I really do think that there is someone for everyone. The girlfriend needs a guy who is more dominant, and would challenge her instead of pedastalizing her. I don’t think that a bad thing! — It just means she needs a man with a different temperament for the relationship to be balanced. I know from experience, girls can get resentment when we’re forced to take on a more dominate role than we’d like due to the guy’s lack of leadership. (Perfect example – Her: What turns you on?, Him: Whatever turns you on, dear)
Anyway, final thoughts – I’m glad Adam wasn’t cast as some WB Hunk. He’s awkward looking and I think it’s refreshing. I hope they continue casting more realistic looking actors, and I would love to see more diversity in characters as the series goes on. (I live in NYC. My social circle is like a Benetton ad. I don’t think that’s an anomaly for people my age.) Gotta say, the random homeless man at the end of the episode was priceless. So very New York!
Hey, don’t get all mad now, Sex and the City was a positive role model for young women! http://cliqueclack.com/tv/2012/04/23/hbo-girls-premiere/
I read “The Red Tent” over ten years ago, so I don’t recall how far I got into it. I do remember that the virginity ritual scene, for which there is no historical or anthropological model, really offended me. At that point, I realized that the author had her own agenda–proving a matriarchal Hebrew culture that never existed. I may have quit at that point, but I honestly don’t remember.
I had noticed that people remember what they hate the most about a book/movie/work of fiction than anything else so that explains the rest. I actually didn’t liked that either but I didn’t though anything dark out of it. ..I guess you didn’t liked the book Did God had a wife either for similar reasons.
@Iggles
I agree with everything you said. I especially love that the show is cast with realistic actors. I found Adam physically unattractive, but he was funny, and his SMV went up even as I was watching. When he tells her, “You’re not that fat anymore, you should have those tattoos lasered off,” I cringed. But it struck me as quite realistic. He’s not pretending anything. She’s there of her own accord. In fact, she’s initiating! He’s just going along for the ride.
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u know i benn thinkin’:
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