Note to Readers,
I’m going to be very busy with a consulting gig over the next week or two, so I’ll be taking a short break from HUS. I may pop in but this will be my last post until after May 1. Enjoy the beautiful spring weather, see you then.
xoxo
Susan
Pew Research released new data yesterday, highlighting the finding that more Gen Y women than men now prioritize career success. Described as a gender reversal, it confirms what we might expect at a time when 60% of college students are women and females in their 20s make 8% more than males nationwide. In cities like New York, Atlanta. Chicago, Dallas and Boston, 20-something women make 20% more than men do.
Today, more young women (18-34) than men define career success as “very important” than they did 15 years ago. Note that the percentage of men saying so has stayed the same – the change is among women.
There has been an even sharper increase in the number of women aged 35-64 (Gen X and Boomers) who feel this way.
Again, the male numbers are mostly unchanged:
Obviously, with male objectives holding steady, and more women defining career success as essential, not everyone can achieve their goals if the number of jobs does not rise accordingly. Obviously, that has not happened and is unlikely to do so. Female gains have occurred largely at male expense. Trends in college enrollment suggest that women are likely to continue filling professional positions in increasing proportion, with the exception of STEM jobs, which do play a vital role in the economy, mitigating the effect somewhat.
Marriage and parenthood remain highly valued in the population, both by men and women, whose values align closely:
However, the story is considerably different for Gen Y:
Surprisingly, women care more about marriage today, even as they care more about careers. If they feel wary of feminism’s promise that women can have it all, it’s not reflected here.
The decrease in the number of young men valuing marriage is more expected, in keeping with decreased educational and financial opportunities. It may also reflect the 80/20 split in the contemporary SMP – the minority of men enjoying sexual success have fewer incentives to choose commitment, and men with less access to female partners undoubtedly perceive a lack of opportunity for marriage. Men may also feel that inequities in American family law make marriage too risky.
Despite feelings about marriage, there’s been a sharp increase in both sexes prioritizing parenthood:
This suggests a continued move toward cohabitation, and perhaps increased willingness to single parent as well, especially for women, whose numbers rose more dramatically. It may also partly reflect the reality of the many young women who already find themselves single mothers.
Will women focus on career to the exclusion of marriage? Will they step onto the mommy track when they have children? How will this play out at a time when 40% of the nation’s primary breadwinners are female?
Will men refuse to marry? Will women embrace cohabitation in lieu of marriage? Will education and socioeconomic status continue to play a role in segmenting these trends among the population?
How will the desire for children affect the birthrate? Will men’s increased desire for children be a point of leverage for women?
I’m not qualified to predict how this will all play out, but I suspect even the experts will be throwing darts. There are a lot of contradictions built into the data. It will be interesting to see what people choose when push comes to shove, because we’ve already seen that no one gets to have it all.
 Expectations of Generation Y){kind=link}
{ 71 comments… read them below or add one }
There are no easy answers to these questions, but one thing that very few people talk about is the rise of telecommuting (working remotely from home). This could solve a lot of issues about work/family balance, not to mention alleviate traffic congestion.
In the mid-2000s when I got my first job, I worked with a guy who telecommuted from another state. All of his work was on the computer, and he had small children at home, so this setup was great for him. Since then I’ve known a lot of people that worked from home or had their own online business.
Gen Y is the first generation that grew up with computers and the Internet, and so the transition will not happen overnight. But I suspect in another generation or two, working at/from home will become much more widespread.
@ Hope
That’s a great thing to point out. Telecommuting could solve many of the current problems we face.
Though not in time for my generation.
Only a vaguely interesting set of questions. It is akin to taking a snapshot of a car on a highway. Sure, you can see the make, model, color, and with a the proper tools and type of snapshot may even determine the speed. The important questions like destination, owner, etc are left out. Same with these questions.
I know you posited that this may show a trend toward more co-habitation regarding wanting to be good parents among the younger generation. On the other hand, it may simply be a recognition that many of their own issues stem from their lack of being parented. They aspire to something they never got themselves and despite the general media propaganda for the last few decades, two parents are far better than one (yes, speaking from experience as the child of a widow). Sure, with the current legal mess it may default to cohabitation instead of marriage, but not making some kind of statement of union to your societal grouping just isn’t stable. Maybe I am projecting, but my observation is that without it there is always some kind of doubt about about the permanence of the relationship without that declaration. Sure, we live in an age where government has undermined the social fabric for years, but unless you start with generation with no connection to prior generations to try to mold it there remain millenias of traditions supporting this meme. Not something that goes away over night.
Regarding the increased earning power, some is still the result of the EEO mess created by the government. Women are a “favored” minority group still in many ways. They also tend to promote other women instead of men on a regular basis.
Educational advantages going to women? Mixed there also. Working in IT for many years, the bulk of the skilled positions still seem to be filled by men (especially infrastructure technical roles). Many of the best I have met don’t have degrees (many don’t even have many certifications). With the steeply rising cost of degrees in an economy showing all of the signs of long term depression having greater personal debt loads isn’t particularly helpful. ROI on many of these new degrees is negative. Other than STEM jobs, new graduates are walking out into the ranks of the un or underemployed.
So all in all, the results are only of mild interest and little impact beyond the time when the picture was taken.
My sister and bro in law both work from home and its difficult to keep their small children entertained while they do so. The kids have cost them a few clients.
Was wondering what people thought of this article about 5 unusal turn ons for men.
http://yahoo.match.com/y/article.aspx?articleid=11876&TrackingID=526103&BannerID=1330766
And this one in reverse.
http://yahoo.match.com/magazine/article.aspx?articleid=11877
College Kid, here was my favorite quote from that last article:
Question.
On the pay 8% more thing. Is it that women have better jobs or are getting paid more for the same jobs?
Side note, STEMs getting propped up a lot. Even new grads here are hurting. Moreso in the S than TE (not sure on M).
Especially the soft sciences. I pity the individual getting a degree in general biology.
My husband got an advanced degree in applied mathematics and had a hard time finding jobs, too. He got lucky via a connection and a local high-tech company that wanted someone exactly like him. So a math degree is no guarantee either.
To Hope and INTJ – The rise of telecommuting can also be a severe detriment as technological connections don’t need to stop at American borders. Jobs may be shedded en masse due to the ability to outsource that work – telecommunicatively – overseas for cheaper wages. Just because companies can work over the computer or phone doesn’t mean it has to be American computers or phones. I highly suspect given the rise in global educational norms that will be the case. STEMs are particularly susceptible to this phenom.
Women administrators of largely shell American companies where the actual work is situated abroad. No American men need be part of that formula… not a pretty sight.
Rob, that is true, but globalization is happening regardless of what we do, so we just have to adapt. This is something our generation has had to deal with since youth. All forms of media and hardware are exported/imported, from movies, video games, music, digital goods to cell phones, tablets, processors, components, etc. There are also long-standing jokes about Korean and Russian gamers/hackers/programmers.
The ability to speak multiple languages fluently and interact in multinational, multicultural environments will become more and more important. Tech skills are locale-agnostic, so one could have international clients as well (I’ve done work for folks in Europe and the UK). As the second world develops, they will also need their own workers, and the rewards/incentives in some parts of Asia for high-tech knowledge workers are high enough that some in the West are lured there, so the transfer is both ways. Most of the rest of the world favor males over females. Unfortunately manufacturing and labor are still largely devalued.
The more materially ambitious women become, with the law supporting them, and the less successful men are (since Affirmative Action really means “white man need not apply”), then the less these people will get married. So what we are going to end up with (and often have) are these highly-educated, successful women finding there aren’t many men they consider marriage material. So we are going to have more and more spinsters.
@Susan
Woo hoo! Congrats on the consulting gig– that’s awesome! 8)
Here is that thing I mentioned for fans of “The Wire”– a Victorian novel adaptation –with illustrations in 19th c. garb!– by “Horatio Buckleby Ogden” (Sean Michael Robinson).
He compares The Wire with DIckens: “For one thing, The Wire’s treatment of the class system is far more nuanced than that of Dickens. Who could forget “Bubbles”—the lovable drifter, Stringer Bell—the bourgeois merchant with pretentions to aristocracy, or Bodie—who, despite lack of education or Victorian “good breeding”, is seen reading and enjoying the likes of Jane Austen?”
In the word of my beloved Omar, Indeed.
http://hoodedutilitarian.com/2011/03/when-its-not-your-turn-the-quintessentially-victorian-vision-of-ogdens-the-wire/
HA! Match says this is a turnon for women:
I think it’s at least partly that they have more degrees, so overall they’re getting better jobs. I remember Capt. Capitalism said that a general biology degree is practically worthless. I guess it’s still good as pre-med, but not as a way to get a job.
@Jackie
Thanks, this is my second one. I’m happy b/c it’s about this fun HUS stuff for a company trying to figure it out.
That link to the Wire by Dickens is hilarious. My favorite part was the book illustrations. I’ve forwarded it to Mr. HUS, lover of Dickens, The Wire, and anything else even remotely Dickensian, e.g. Tom Wolfe.
>> ““My best guy friend (OK, I’m madly in love with him, too) is a paleontologist, and it makes me melt just to listen to him talk about dinosaurs and rocks.”
This part would be a turn-on for me. I went through a dinosaur phase when I was a kid.
The rest of it …not so much.
I only think the “plain Jane” and “freckles” are true for women, while the “body odor” and “scars and blemishes” are true for men. The other stuff are the kind of things that only a few people value.
Personally though I agree with all of the things for women. Though I like enough independence that we can have mutual respect. Unfortunately, many girls are either too needy (which means I can’t respect her) or too adamant (which means I don’t get enough respect from her).
And omg glasses. If someone wants me to fall for her, her most effective thing to do would be to wear big square glasses. Hell, I’ve been in love with this character for ages: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRxQYKtSG2k
@ Rob
Hmm. This is an interesting perspective. I guess as an introvert, I just see working at home as a much nicer environment than the current office workspace that we STEM people have to go to. And I think that it is very pro-family and will benefit those who want to raise children. Anything that will stop rewarding the career-crazy feminists is something I support.
But I (as an Indian-American) probably benefit from the confidence that in technical fields I can hold my own against the best that other countries have to offer. Those whose only source of training was our terrible education system aren’t so lucky.
INTP (16),
I also find that guys with dark hair and glasses are seriously underrated.
@Emily
Hey Emily!
How did your job interview go? *crosses fingers*
Jackie…the “Wire as Victorian novel” piece is great!
@david foster
*curtsey*
Pleased to be of service, good sir
I always thought that I wanted just cohabitation – I didn’t want kids and so thought, why bother getting married?
But then, I met IC and I wanted to get married (for more reasons than just commitment (oh immigration!)).
Jackie,
I think it went alright, but I’m going to keep sending out job applications just in case.
@ Emily
Best of luck with your job search.
Thanks INTJ!
Tangentially related:
I have a close friend – he’s 16 like me – who periodically visits prostitutes and even lost his virginity to one a few months ago. I wonder if this practice will become more normal among young people. The guy is middle-class, smart, friendly, and performs well enough at school. Like me, he seems quite a natural beta.
What’s the community’s opinion, if there are any?
@ Harkat
Yikes. 16! You aren’t American are you? Fortunately, I’d imagine the illegality of prostitution would prevent a beta from accessing prostitutes in America. But elsewhere, it only makes sense that with increasing sexual liberalization, this’ll become more and more common.
Come to think of it though, if I felt a strong need to have sex, I’d rather choose to hire a prostitute than to learn PUA. I have more respect for someone who has sex in exchange for money than someone who has sex with a guy because he acts like a jerk.
Harkat,
That’s incredibly depressing.
Where on earth are his parents???
>> “I have more respect for someone who has sex in exchange for money than someone who has sex with a guy because he acts like a jerk.”
I have the opposite opinion. I think that the average promiscuous girl usually has a lot more control over her life than a prostitute does. Sure she’s making some stupid decisions, but she’s also in a much better position to turn her life around. It just seems so awful to use somebody who’s hit rock bottom.
I did some volunteer work that dealt with prostitutes, so I feel very strongly about this issue. They were all incredibly sad and broken people.
You’re right now that I think about it. It’s just that my gut reaction was to prefer the honesty involved in a money transaction for sex as opposed to all the social games that people play when hooking up.
@Emily @ INTJ
We both go to an international school in Zürich. Prostitution is legal here.
What’s intereting is that he is not at all socially inept, with guys OR girls.
Thus, I doubt he’s a unique case. If the SMP is changing and women/girls gravitate increasingly towards the upper echelon of alphas (we’ve discussed why), it’ll leave many average betas without romantic or sexual attention. Will the solution for betas then become prostitutes + female platonic friends, as with this guy? Or will feminism stand in the way of that?
I’m probably exaggerating, but it’s fascinating (and kinda disturbing).
@ Harkat
16 is an awfully young age to get desperate because of lack of romantic or sexual attraction though.
Just throwing my lot in on the prostituion bit.
Its actually situational normal most everywhere. Except the US.
Side note: Canada officially sanctioned it as a legitmate business less than a month ago.
I’ve done some business overseas.
Big boss man takes everyone out wines them and then buys them hooker. (BJ is complementary.) It was expected that men participate (in an unwritten, if you don’t you’ll never make it past mail room kinda way).
This was an extremely patriarchal society. Its changing with the next generation but for the old dudes it was situation normal.
Last, most of the cops/detectives I know who do the hooker route (or whatever its called) jumped up and down, clapped their hands and orgasmed when the new law recently past. Gets em off the streets and somewhere where they can be safe supposedly.
@ Lokland
Prostitution happens everywhere, and in many places is allowed to occur by law enforcement, whereas in the US law enforcement actually tries to stop it (not that they succeed). But nevertheless, it is illegal in most of the world.
What country was that where all the employees are expected to participate? That would be infuriating for a self-respecting person in that society.
“the minority of men enjoying sexual success”
.
More and more, the acceptance/admittance of this fact among women and especially among feminists is sinking in. Does the revelation of this relatively long-standing norm mean anything?
@ Abbot
Not really. The feminists don’t care. From their point of view, the men who don’t enjoy sexual success are complaining because they feel “entitled” to sex.
@INTJ
Yes its illegal in most places.
Law just doesn’t care.
South Korea. Its funny, about 7:30-8:00 pm I swear to god every street in Seoul is covered with little business cards advertising prostitutes. (And I lierally mean covered as in like a fresh snow storm.) Includes name, number and location etc. (And picture but I think their generic.)
The cops do nothing to stop it.
Like I said though the newer guys (my generation) seem a bit more feminized. (Femi has taken off very lightly there but it’ll never as bad as it is here. Women think birth control is uber unhealthy.)
The older dudes though. Mad men to the extreme.
“The feminists don’t care. From their point of view, the men who don’t enjoy sexual success are complaining because they feel “entitled” to sex.”
.
That is interesting. When men will not commit [especially due to her disconcerting bed-hopping past], we find that women complain. Is that because they feel entitled to have commitment as if men will just be there to grasp and make do with whats left of the good times?
.
But do men who don’t enjoy sexual success actually complain? At least in the mainstream media. Don’t see that happening. Do see much about women whining for lack of willing suitors. Feminists, strangely enough, monitor those male disgruntled voices for a reason. And make comments about them…mostly cruel. Why is that?
“Women think birth control is uber unhealthy”
.
The general consensus worldwide, short of a few pesky places
@Abbot
Good point.
I remember when I started dating my fiance and learning she wasn’t on the pill. I damn near fainted and legitametely thought about ending it due to the risk involved.
I honestly didn’t know it was unhealthy until she told me it was. (And unlike most she could tell me the exact biochemical/metabolic reasoning behind it.)
I was actually the tiniest bit stunned.
“I honestly didn’t know it was unhealthy until she told me it was”
.
The feminist nearly always point to pill use among married women in order to shield the largest use group: single women addicted to recreational sex with the minority of men who enjoy sexual success. Women worldwide who shun pills, especially outside the US, wisely do not want to be associated with a pill dating culture and the dating and marriage environment is a much happier place.
I’ve never been on birth control. That stuff is scary to me.
If you date a woman for a few weeks and she tells you she takes these pills and not because they relieve a prior condition with severe menstrual pain, that red flag better be up
Men will become more violent and less invested in society.
Wow, I didn’t know that prostitution was illegal in the US. Sure, I guessed maybe in the more conservative states, but even in the more liberal ones? It’s not something I deal with but as a recent arrival in the US I’m often surprised at things like this.
But nevertheless, it is illegal in most of the world.
As illegal as drinking alcohol was during the prohibition…so yeah.
I’ve never been on birth control. That stuff is scary to me.
I had been on a while and even though it was not scary I can’t shake the feeling that it was related as to why it took that long for me to get pregnant. I’m using natural methods next time till hubby gets a vasectomy or I get the tubes tied up.
“I’m using natural methods next time till hubby gets a vasectomy or I get the tubes tied up.”
Tree sap isn’t natural enough for you?
In every single chart, the bar for women in 2010-2011 is bigger than the bar for women in 1997. So basically, women want more of everything.
We will miss you Susan!
Feminism and communism.
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/the-peoples-guide-to-marriage/
@Robber –
Prostitution is illegal everywhere in the US other than Nevada, which allows it in licensed brothels. It isn’t a conservative vs liberal state issue. Both conservatives and liberals are aligned on the issue.
Having said that, enforcement is very limited. Most of it is directed against larger escort services or street prostitution. The rise of the independent internet hooker has dramatically changed prostitution. These women run the gamut from college students and grad students to single mothers to educated professional women earning extra money a few nights a week. The fact that they can do this themselves without a pimp or madam, or working in a brothel has opened up this line of work to many women who would never have considered it otherwise. And law enforcement against this kind of new independent internet Hooker is very, very low.
“Wow, I didn’t know that prostitution was illegal in the US. …I’m often surprised at things like this.”
.
The minority of men enjoying sexual success will leave, in their wake, a bunch of women who have has as much or more multi-cock than some prostitutes.
.
Few men, very few men would knowingly marry a prostitute, former or otherwise. Please think about this.
@Orion
Admittedly I’m speaking as a divorced Gen Xer, not a never married Gen Y POV, that public statement to your societal grouping is no assurance of stability. It’s not even an assurance of your social circle applying pressure to work through problems.
“In every single chart, the bar for women in 2010-2011 is bigger than the bar for women in 1997. So basically, women want more of everything.”
.
That is the number one reason men prefer to avoid this minority of women and flock to the rest [97%].
.
These women have made their beds. Now they can lay in them…alone.
I still feel stupid. But it’s ok, I’ll smash the face of anyone that gives me shit.
Krav ftw.
@ chris
That’s only what happened in the early USSR.
Lopsided sex-ratios notwithstanding, the later USSR serves as an excellent example of how women’s equality can be advanced without hurting men, and that strong government welfare need not destroy marriage.
Compare to the ultrapromiscuous societies we see in modern day Russia or Ukraine.
@Abbot
Modern feminism has descended into female supremacy. Men will take what women give and not complain and men will provide what women demand and not complain.
WRT BC pill. We lost a beautiful young woman from the family three years ago. She started an acne med which had such terrible effects on a fetus that the docs prescribe BC even to nuns–I suppose. But to any woman on the acne med irrespective of any sexual activity or, in this case, lack of it.
Turns out there’s a rare clotting factor which, in conjunction with the BC pill, will clot the blood and kill you.
I think it’s called factor R or something like that. Can be tested for and is hereditary.
Probably Factor V (Roman numeral 5) Leiden.
Most of the young people I see with deep vein thrombosis have that.
Tree sap isn’t natural enough for you?
Do you realize how offensive this statement is from someone from the first world to someone that comes from the third world? It makes me look like a savage or an superstitious ignorant I could never imagine someone like you would dare to use this poor statement regardless to me. I’m a college educated woman with education on Theology, Writing and business administration so of course I wouldn’t use something as retrograde and unreliable as tree sap as a birth control method…I use crocodile dung
@ Hope:
Math is very useful for finance. If your husband has experience with stochastic modelling then he should go work at algorithmic hedge funds. The starting salary from someone with a math PhD is around 300-600K. It’s very, very lucrative.
@Hope:
He’s right…I have a degree in math and while I don’t do much of the actual model design I write and run the software that implements for a major bank and while not quite that well of in income, it’s six figures with bonus.
I’ve been told that if you are aggressive (which it was noted I am) at 3-5 years your bonus starts exceeding your salary.
Anacaona: I am sorry for that joke. I didn’t mean to call you uneducated. I was trying to make a condom joke. Condoms are made from rubber, which is processed tree sap.
Anacaona: I am sorry for that joke. I didn’t mean to call you uneducated. I was trying to make a condom joke. Condoms are made from rubber, which is processed tree sap.
Err did you read the ending of my paragraph answering the “tree sap” joke?
I don’t get it.
I don’t get it.
Crocodile dung = excrement, poop, crap..!? I took your joke and went to even farther…
Well moment’s passed. I didn’t get offended I’m just not funny obviously
Interesting post, I admit it, women are now much more success-oriented than in the 20th century. The new mode of the independent women inspires them on the way of emancipation. And I think that’s pretty cool.
“on the way of emancipation”
.
from what?
@ Susan – “Thanks, this is my second one. I’m happy b/c it’s about this fun HUS stuff for a company trying to figure it out.”
Congrats! I’ve always been a bit envious of Helen Fisher because she looks like she’s having a blast talking about sex and relationships! Have you seen some of her lectures on youtube?
And now you! Go girl!
@Pennies
I adore Helen Fisher. It would be a dream come true to meet her. I have so much respect for her work.
“Was wondering what people thought of this article about 5 unusal turn ons for men.”
Took me a while to realize that my sudden loss in interest in a girl was because she had stopped wearing glasses.
“Modern feminism has descended into female supremacy. ”
It’s a folly to think that.
http://antimisandry.com/chit-chat-main/canucks-has-womens-rights-pendulum-swung-too-far-5934-post29715.html#post29715