The Anatomy of a Hookup

May 1, 2012

 

 It’s a risky business.

 

 

  • OhioStater

    How do you think men in general can improve themselves? In the absence of forced monogamy (victorian era mores), the only way hook up culture will end is if the difference between great guys and average guys is small.

  • Abbot

    “How do you think men in general can improve themselves?”
    .
    By continuing to vocalize their intent on not marrying female members of the hookup harem.

  • Jim

    Hookups are happening because women are giving their sex away first then trying to get a relationship second. I know a 33 year old guy who can pluck women all night long, get sex from them that same night and then a week or two later are trying to go into dating mode with him. And of course he deletes them out of his life. This guy doesn’t flash money, isn’t a bad boy, is not tatted up or does anything that is talked about in the PUA sense. He just talks to them but most important will cut them off and pursue other women. That’s how you do it and in a setting such as a bar, numbers plus the willingness to walk away works. He doesn’t always get the hookup but his thing is that he doesn’t care what happens. Neither should any other man.

    Women are starving for relationships and I don’t care what they say here or anywhere. Women have no power in the real world except from men who willingly give it to them. And those that do end up being their tampons.

  • Herb

    @OhioStarter

    How do you think men in general can improve themselves? In the absence of forced monogamy (victorian era mores), the only way hook up culture will end is if the difference between great guys and average guys is small.

    Men can improve themselves in many ways: learning a new skill (languages, art, welding, the sky is the limit), working out, taking up challenging goals.

    If what you’re asking is how can we motivate men to improve themselves, which I think is your real question, we can reward success and penalize failure.

    In a very high level definition becoming a PUA is self-improvement: learning new skills both interpersonal (reading people, for example) and personal (how to handle rejection). It is also rewarded, with sex and female attention.

    If you’d like more socially beneficial ways of improvement to outweight PUA stuff, well get women to reward those with sex and female attention.

  • “Women are starving for relationships and I don’t care what they say here or anywhere.”

    This.

    What so few men know is that they are the gatekeepers to commitment. What most women know is that they are the gatekeepers to sexuality.

    The men who do know this – along with the women who already know this – are increasingly using their respective “advantages” in the Dating 2.0 (Combat Dating) scenario. This is where getting to know each other is less important than exercising that advantage in order to achieve one’s personal needs too often at the expense of the other person. For example: the girl uses the guy for emotional validation without providing physical intimacy. The guy uses the girl for sex without promises of exclusivity.

    The sub-theme in Dating 2.0 is the queasy process of a woman determining a man’s social proof and a man determining if the woman will put out quickly. It’s an ugly agenda for both.

  • Kennifer

    ” I know a 33 year old guy who can pluck women all night long”

    An eyebrow fetish?

    “Women have no power in the real world except from men who willingly give it to them. And those that do end up being their tampons.”

    Wow. Just wow.

  • Emily

    >> “Men can improve themselves in many ways: learning a new skill (languages, art, welding, the sky is the limit), working out, taking up challenging goals.”

    I think the self-improvement route is a good idea for women as well. Even if I knew that I was going to stay single, I think I’d still want to go through life being the most interesting/attractive/positive person that I can possibly be.

  • Abbot

    “Women have no power in the real world except from men who willingly give it to them. And those that do end up being their tampons.”
    .
    “Wow. Just wow.”
    .
    Yeah, like having a bucket of ice water dumped on your head. Wake up!

  • meistergedanken

    “Kennifer” wrote:

    ““Women have no power in the real world except from men who willingly give it to them. And those that do end up being their tampons.”

    Wow. Just wow.”

    You sure say “wow” a lot. You must walk through life continually astounded. Sorry your illusions have been momentarily pierced.

    Forget it, Abbot; this type is going to resist the truth staring at them in the face even if they have to jam an ice pick into their eyeballs to continue not seeing it.

  • Anon

    I don’t think there has ever been a better visual representation for the hookup that shows its futility from the woman’s point of view.

  • Kennifer

    What wows me is the idea of relationships as a power struggle. That’s not been my experience ever and I feel sorry for anyone who thinks in that manner. They will find what they expect to.

  • Abbot

    “this type is going to resist the truth staring at them in the face even if they have to jam an ice pick into their eyeballs to continue not seeing it.”
    .
    This denial is palpable among women in the West and especially among those feminists. Basically, if women were motivated to obtain power independent of men then they would have more of it. They just dont get a rush of “feel good” when it comes to power and control the way men do. Thus, men rule.

  • Just1X

    “Women have no power in the real world except from men who willingly give it to them. And those that do end up being their tampons.”

    Women as a group have a lot of power, but individually (if their sisters are giving out free milk) not so much.

    “How do you think men in general can improve themselves?”

    Men should take the Red-pill (understand how the SMP & MMP work), learn as much games as they wish and live the best life they can (however they define a good life). Given how the MMP works, marriage is to be heavily discouraged. Men should not care whether any of this suits women’s interests, as there is no reciprocity. Until there is, women have made the bed, they get to lie in it (happy or not).

    Women are allowing feminists to define how society ‘should’ work. If women in general don’t like the current society, perhaps they need to re-think their attitudes. (Best of luck)

  • Abbot

    “What wows me is the idea of relationships as a power struggle. ”
    .
    Have you noticed that women and men in the West are in a power struggle and women comment and otherwise spew diatribes about it constantly? It would be very unusual indeed for that struggle to not transcend into the home, subtle as that may be. The motivation for men to marry is at an all time low, for good reason. Better to be free than to struggle.

  • Sassy6519

    That diagram looks as pleasant as trying to cross a minefield.

    • That diagram looks as pleasant as trying to cross a minefield.

      I thought the picture was worth a thousand words. Literally.

  • Herb

    @Kennifier

    What wows me is the idea of relationships as a power struggle. That’s not been my experience ever and I feel sorry for anyone who thinks in that manner. They will find what they expect to.

    We live in a world where the Marxist power struggle model is almost universally applied (feminism in many forms is explicitly Marxist in the sense that it applies his model of the class power struggle to gender, just as most modern race theorists apply it to race).

    Why does it surprise you that the SMP, especially in the era where feminism has wholly remade it, reflects the power struggle idea.

    That said, I’d like to thank you. I hadn’t before made the connection between the adherence to Marxist power struggle ideas and the fact that we now have combat dating built around the exploitation of the other and both sides trying to create rules that maximize their ability to exploit while minimizing their risk of being exploited it.

    That’s probably why I like HUS more than a lot of Game sites. Game advocates have, too often, bought into the feminist power struggle framework. Susan and some others (Athol, although I still have issues with his work) are rejecting said framework. They are pursuing what I consider a more honorable path. While acknowledging human nature they advocate using human intelligence to rise above it instead of just indulging it.

  • “What so few men know is that they are the gatekeepers to commitment. What most women know is that they are the gatekeepers to sexuality.”

    Exactly. I just did a blog post on this (http://theredpillroom.blogspot.com/2012/04/great-hamster-manifesto-its-trap.html) that describes why women, alas, can’t just rely on the feminist ideal of “being yourself”, getting fat and ignoring their appearances and then expect Prince Charming to fall into their lap. Men are starting to learn their own value in the dating world. They’re beginning to learn Game and use women’s desire for a relationship as leverage. And that means that they’re raising their expectations (which sucks for feminists, who are constantly trying to lower women’s expectations of themselves while raising it for men) and getting a lot more canny about just who they want to spend their lives with.

    Men are, indeed, the keepers of commitment. It’s the masculine equivalent of our “virtue”, our ability and willingness to ally ourselves with one woman (or just a few). Those fellas in the Puerarchy who are still hooking up like mad, y’all are the rest of that leverage. With Game-savvy PUAs pumpin’ & dumpin’ like it’s on sale, they provide a bleak alternative to pursuing commitment with a quality dude, which means his value as a high-status male goes up with his willingness to commit. But that also means his expectations of his future bride go up as well.

    Guys, recognize your value to women, and use it to your advantage. Remember, a woman in a crappy relationship enjoys higher status in the Matrix than a woman without a relationship, all things being equal. They crave the validation they get from their female peers in the Matrix more than they even crave the romantic connection. That provides a tremendous amount of leverage for the dude who understands that.

  • J

    @Jim

    You’re description of your friend’s success in the hook up scene was cogent and you were making a lot of sense until you said this: “Women are starving for relationships and I don’t care what they say here or anywhere. Women have no power in the real world except from men who willingly give it to them. And those that do end up being their tampons.”

    I think you’ve lost sight of a number of things. First, not every woman is “starving” for a relationship; marriage is till the norm for college-educated women. Most of those women are happy and in good relationships, not starving. Second, there are many areas were women have power that comes of their own agency, and, on the level of personal relationships, a lot of male power comes from what women are willing to cede or pretend to cede to them. My late mother, a member of the pre-feminist generation used to love to impress upon me the notion that realpower rested on my being able to bs some guy into believing he was in charge. Third, many men are in relationships with women for whom they are not emotional tampons. Again, let’s remember that stable marriage is still the norm in the demographic that most of us belong to.

  • Herb

    @Just1X

    Men should take the Red-pill (understand how the SMP & MMP work), learn as much games as they wish and live the best life they can (however they define a good life). Given how the MMP works, marriage is to be heavily discouraged. Men should not care whether any of this suits women’s interests, as there is no reciprocity. Until there is, women have made the bed, they get to lie in it (happy or not).

    I bolded above because if there is one lesson Game types and MRA should be pushing it is this:

    “A man needs to be ridden by a woman as much as a bicycle needs to be ridden by a fish.”

    And yes, I changed it from “have” to “ridden by” for a reason. In the combat dating era, especially in marriage 2.0, men are saddled and ridden too often.

    You don’t need a woman in your life to be a man or be complete. Sure, as Obsidian pointed out, if you don’t have kids you’ve lost in a biological sense (as I have).

    But guess what, I can still spend hours figuring out just how Kraftwerk made The Man Machine, listen to some VNV Nation, download a copy of Teenagers from Outer Space (which is out of copyright) to sample some dialog, and be inspired by Louis Jacolliot to channel the initiates of the lost continent of Rutas to make my own music.

    Or you can do your version of the above. The point is you don’t need a woman. If you physically need sexual contact there is no shame in deciding the way women have organized the current SMP is a losing game and just turn to the world’s oldest profession (which too many women let themselves become even if they don’t realize it).

  • When it’s right, it will be A to B to C to D, a linear progression rather than some convoluted mess.

    My husband and I went from A) emotional investment and friendship to B) love and relationship to C) living together to D) engaged and married. All this happened in a year, and we were 25.

    PS, if you like VNV Nation, Apoptygma Berzerk and Assemblage 23 are really good.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    PS, if you like VNV Nation, Apoptygma Berzerk and Assemblage 23 are really good.

    Did you miss the part about me having been a radio DJ twice in the past with a Goth-Industrial show 😉

    Plus, I’ve seen Apop live back at Synthpop Fest Boston in 2002. To this day Welcome to Earth is one of my favorite albums.

    This morning has been a mix of Kraftwerk and Decoded Feedback.

  • J

    With Game-savvy PUAs pumpin’ & dumpin’ like it’s on sale, they provide a bleak alternative to pursuing commitment with a quality dude, which means his value as a high-status male goes up with his willingness to commit.

    The irony is that many young women accept the hook-up scene or serial monogamy because they ALREADY see the majority of men as unwilling to commit until their late 20s or early 30s. I think the result will be more WGTOW; part of reason for the number of young women claiming to not want marriage has recently acceded the the number of young men making the same claim is that many young women have given up the assumption that everyone will eventually get married and are trying to build their own lives.

    In respect to women waiting for commitment, do we really expect young women of 18-21 to wait for sex until they marry at 26 to a 30 year old guy? Especially when they reach puberty at 12? If you really think about it, it’s a bigger achievement for a modern girl to hold off until college then it was for a Victorian girl who reached puberty at 15 to wait for marriage at 17. Earlier puberty and the extention of adolescence through grad school make abstaining damn near impossible except for those with the lowest sex drives or highest level of religiousness.

    • @J

      In respect to women waiting for commitment, do we really expect young women of 18-21 to wait for sex until they marry at 26 to a 30 year old guy? Especially when they reach puberty at 12? If you really think about it, it’s a bigger achievement for a modern girl to hold off until college then it was for a Victorian girl who reached puberty at 15 to wait for marriage at 17. Earlier puberty and the extention of adolescence through grad school make abstaining damn near impossible except for those with the lowest sex drives or highest level of religiousness.

      This is my main problem with attempts to shame serial monogamy. The average person spends a full 14 years between puberty and marriage. Sex will be had. I argue that sex in the context of a relationship is far preferable to casual sex. Obviously, rapid firing one’s way through tons of relationships is just another form of promiscuity, but I think it’s beneficial for young men and women to gain relationship skills before their late 20s. Of course, guys may prefer to avoid commitment altogether, which is significantly more likely than women avoiding sex altogether.

  • Jason773

    How do you think men in general can improve themselves?

    First three things I would tell your average guy to do would be to watch their diet, regularly lift weights and dress better. In just six months time this can take your average guy (a 4-6) and bump his SMV up at least a point or two. The fact that’s it’s so easy for a guy to increase his value in such a relatively short time leaves me no sympathy for guys who don’t do this and still complain.

    Next on that list, after the first three are on point, would be to learn game.

  • Herb

    @J

    The irony is that many young women accept the hook-up scene or serial monogamy because they ALREADY see the majority of men as unwilling to commit until their late 20s or early 30s.

    In my experience it is women who are much more intent on waiting to establish their career prior to marriage than men. Men are much more responding to the “I don’t want serious yet” signal.

    Plus, women, just as men, seem to have two sets of requirements: fun sex and marriage. However, men who want marriage get kind of annoyed at being left out of the fun sex (this is a huge issue never married single mothers have…why pay the fare when I didn’t get the ride).

  • J

    I think the self-improvement route is a good idea for women as well. Even if I knew that I was going to stay single, I think I’d still want to go through life being the most interesting/attractive/positive person that I can possibly be.

    You would, Emily. I have a few female friends who never married and this is how they live.

  • J

    My husband and I went from A) emotional investment and friendship to B) love and relationship to C) living together to D) engaged and married. All this happened in a year, and we were 25.

    Alomost co-signed. My husband and I went from A) emotional investment and friendship to B) dating, love and relationship to C) engaged and married. All this happened in a year and a half, and we were in our 30s.

    • My husband and I went from A) emotional investment and friendship to B) love and relationship to C) living together to D) engaged and married. All this happened in a year, and we were 25.

      Hmmm, can’t cosign. My husband and I went from acquaintanceship to sex to acquaintanceship to sex to love and relationship to living together, engaged then married. Two and a half years in all.

      It’s a complicated way to start out.

  • Tom

    Yeah, like having a bucket of ice water dumped on your head. Wake up!
    ____________
    Only the true macho man thinks women have no power. Women hold the key to sex and in many cases, relationships. MANY men are just as desperate for relationships as women are. The macho man thinks women are here to serve him. They are not your mommy…lol

  • J

    In my experience it is women who are much more intent on waiting to establish their career prior to marriage than men. Men are much more responding to the “I don’t want serious yet” signal.

    It’s a vicious circle, I think. I agree that more women do want to wait to establish a career, but I also remember when the desired formula was marriage + career, as opposed career first, then marriage. And I think a lot of that comes from the sense that marriage may not happen or will happen much later than it used to. Among the younger women I know, there is less faith that marriage is something that a woman can rely on and more emphasis on being able to support one’s self in the event that it never happens or dissolves, leaving a woman with kids to support.

    In terms of single mothers, I think this is a different demographic than what I’m discussing. In that group, I think the chances of never kids is probably higher than the chances of single motherhood.

  • Just1X

    @J

    re WGTOW

    http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/mgtow-vs-wgtow.html

    “One, I don’t believe it. Sorry, just don’t. Normally I cite empirical data or statistics, but I have none. All I have is the totality of personal and anecdotal experience I’ve accumulated over the years to realize that women, especially in their 30’s and 40’s, AND ESPECIALLY IF THEY DON’T HAVE KIDS, become MORE desperate. Yes they’ll tell themselves 30 is the new 20. And yes, they’ll cite people like “Meg Ryan” or “Jennifer Aniston” who are still “hot” in their 40’s. And yes, they’ll read US or People magazine and watch reruns of “Tank Girl.” But in the end, I don’t believe women, like men in the MGTOW movement, believe it for one second. I believe it is their rationalization hamsters merely plagiarizing the MGTOW movement.

    Two, while the two are analogous (MGTOW and WGTOW), the analogy ends in the origins of both movements. The origins of MGTOW hearkens back to when these men were in their early teens. Nerd or jock. Player or uber-beta. Virgin or porn star. All men have had to suffer the games, psychoses, drama, and just plain BS associated with dating and courting women/girls since puberty. Some men, with a low threshold for psychological pain or abuse (or as I like to call it “self-respect”), just give up. They make a conscious economic decision weighing the costs and benefits of continuing to pursue the opposite sex and came to the decision not to chase any more. To hop on their motorcycles, get the snippity snip, minimize their expenses and head out into the vast plains of life and maximize the time they have on this planet for their own benefit before they died.

    This “process” or “epiphany” is different from the origins of WGTOW or how women decide going their own way is the best option. Most men go their own way in their prime. It’s a conscious choice. It wasn’t forced upon them. They purposely and consciously chose to quit because it was the wisest choice. Whereas with WGTOW, it’s a situation that seems forced upon them. They wake up one day, at the age of 37, realize the past 7 years was not as fruitful as it was from 1990-1997 and are faced with the reality nobody cares about Winona Ryder anymore. They only care about Megan Fox. They never analyzed or assessed the ROI of their efforts on attracting a male. They never looked back and said, “Gee, I’m going to die here in a short 40 years, I better quit pissing away my time at the bars and go hiking in Glacier National Park.” They just took the time to finally turn around and see men stopped chasing them back in Bush’s first administration.

    They then claim, “Oh yeah, me too! Fish-bicycle! I’m going my own way!” Sadly, because it’s their only option. This, does not a deeply thoughtful (or intellectually honest) epiphany make.”

    even Susan wasn’t convinced according to her comment in the link.

  • Lokland

    My two cents on power.

    No one has power of you (man or woman) unless you give it to them.
    Women have no sexual power unless men give it to them and even then its on a completely individual level.
    Men have no commitment power unless women give it to them and even then its on a completely individual level.

    It comes down to how bad do you want it vs. how bad do they want it.
    Want it less and your in power.

    @J, Hope

    My relationship went much the same way except that friends/emotional investment developed simultaneously with physical.
    Exclusivity and sex came within 3 days of each other but I can’t remember which was first. (I think sex.)

  • Lokland

    @Just1X

    +1

    I remember reading that. A very good breakdown.

  • Tom

    Susan, great chart.. that about sums it up

    People remember, only about 5% of women are considered promiscuous. So all these guys who say all women this, or all women that are so misinformed. 95% of women are just fine, and will not settle for some man looking for his mommy to wait on him hand and foot, as some of the haters seem to be looking for.
    The vast majority of men and women get it, unlike the vast majority of men who visit and comment here.
    I feel bad for any man whos woman left him. But I would bet, if he had treated her better, helped in the kitchen, the laundry room and changed a thousand diapers, maybe his woman would not have developed resentment toward him for not pulling his weight in the relationship. Maybe if he had paid attention to her sexual needs instead of just rolling over and snoring, she might have not lost that loving feeling.
    It isnt rocket science, but it may be a different language to the macho guys out there.

  • ozymandias

    Susan, it is like way more complicated than that. Looking at my current relationships (the polyamory is nonnormative but I don’t think how the relationships happen is so much), this is how they came together.

    Random –> Hookup –> Round Two –> NSA –> Dump –> End up living together the next year –> Friend –> Catch Feelings –> Date.
    Friend –> Hookup –> Round Two –> Date.*
    Catch Feelings –> Friend –> Date –> Have sex –> Dump –> Friends with Benefits–> No seriously like best friends AND ALSO SEX this is the best arrangement ever.

    The question of course is whether things were any less complicated in the much-vaunted past. I doubt it. People were still involved, even if sex wasn’t.

    *This LOOKS a lot more normative than it is, because I cut out all the poly-only bits. My girlfriend and I originally got together because we were going to have a threesome and then she spent the entire time reading comic books. *sigh*

    • @Ozy

      Obviously, there’s going to be enormous variation – people looping back, changing their minds, fits and starts, breaking up, getting back together, etc. The point of the chart is really to highlight the odds of getting to dating via a hookup. Studies say 12% of the time. All those yellow and red boxes are just a visual representation of those odds.

  • Herb

    @J

    It’s a vicious circle, I think. I agree that more women do want to wait to establish a career, but I also remember when the desired formula was marriage + career, as opposed career first, then marriage.

    We could be in a particularly vicious positive feedback loop women delay so the men left are less inclined so they delay so women delay more and so on.

    Among the younger women I know, there is less faith that marriage is something that a woman can rely on and more emphasis on being able to support one’s self in the event that it never happens or dissolves, leaving a woman with kids to support.

    Yeah, well, we haven’t been great examples. I wish feminists would give up on their “divorce is men trading in old wives for younger” and look at the real stats. Women file more often and yes, I know, women are more likely to be the filer in amicable divorce although there are lots of women who force men to file so they don’t have to take the blame and on and on. I figure the rationalizations of why women do more are balanced by men and in the long run women are just more likely to want out. It doesn’t just fit hypergamy but the male tendency to like things settled thus making them less likely to divorce.

    What we are doing by not being honest about this is harming the women you describe. They think marriage isn’t safe because of divorce without knowing they are more likely to be the initiators. Ironically, this lack of knowledge I think fuels that very thing…they are distrustful and thus at trouble figure it’s going to go bad and might as well be proactive. If they knew it was generally women who initiate a fear that it’s coming and the need to be proactive could be lessened making them more secure.

  • J

    @Just1X

    IME, most PGTOW, male or female, are those who have given up. It may be that men do that earlier, either because it is clearer to them at a younger age that they have fewer relationship options or because they have less of a drive to have kids and more opportunity to find other fulfilling opportunities that take the place of family. But anyone who thinks GTOW is an attractive first choice for anybody is fooling themselves.

    They just took the time to finally turn around and see men stopped chasing them back in Bush’s first administration.

    I see this sort of comment so much that it is becoming a pet peeve of my aging self. Personally, my dry spell years in terms of garnering male attention occured when my kids were little. It seemed that two toodler trailing after me really detracted from my sex appeal. 🙂

    Now, more than a decade later, I still, in the course of my daily activities, am flirted with by men my age and older–and that’s despite modest dress, a visible wedding ring and sometimes even the presence of my teenaged sons.

    As much as I hear about men in the ‘sphere hold themselves above Megan Fox because of her weird thumbs or saw the Winona Ryder has hit the wall, in reality I suspect that a reasonably kept middle aged woman in still attractive to her peers. Hell, I’ve even seen a few old ladies become belle of the nursing home.

  • J

    We could be in a particularly vicious positive feedback loop women delay so the men left are less inclined so they delay so women delay more and so on.

    Maybe. I also do think that the easy availability of sex feeds into it. If there was no pre-marital sex in the picture, both men and women would find a way to make marriage and career fit together. We’d find more marriage student housing on campus, more grad schools admitting both members of a couple and more kids being born in year 15 of a marriage.

    It doesn’t just fit hypergamy but the male tendency to like things settled thus making them less likely to divorce.

    This is a really intersting point, Herb. With the increased ability to be self-supoorting has come a tendency for women to leave unsatisfactory relationships. While men really do like things “settled,” especially as they age, women tend to want more quality in the relationship as they age. In my own home, I find that DH is looking forward to retirement and the kids leaving so that we can “coast.” I’m looking forward to our going out and playing together and our reviving what we had together before the kids came. There is a real difference in how men and women deal with this, and I can see how “gray divorces” result when people don’t meet each other’s expectations.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @J

    “But anyone who thinks GTOW is an attractive first choice for anybody is fooling themselves.”

    First choice? Not hardly. In fact, a man choosing to GTOW often does so AFTER one of two things occurs:
    a. He witnesses friends and/or family in a horrible relationship, ruined in a divorce, or had a false accusation leveled against them.
    b. He’s been through a divorce himself.

    It’s not always attractive either. But it is a smart play when the legal side of things does not favor you. I refer you again, as Just1X did earlier, to Captain Capitalism’s seminal post on MGTOW vs. “WGTOW.”

    @Ian

    That’s a DAMN good post, man.

  • Ted D

    Susan – please forgive the rant I’m about to unleash. If it is just too much, I will understand if you delete it…

    Tom – “I feel bad for any man whos woman left him. But I would bet, if he had treated her better, helped in the kitchen, the laundry room and changed a thousand diapers, maybe his woman would not have developed resentment toward him for not pulling his weight in the relationship. Maybe if he had paid attention to her sexual needs instead of just rolling over and snoring, she might have not lost that loving feeling.”

    Man (or woman…), this here looks like troll bait, but I’m in a pretty foul mood today and a rant will do me some good.

    First of all, bullshit to your entire comment above. In my case, I may have been able to treat my ex-wife better, but she didn’t care to tell me how. I have cooked my entire life, and once my ex-wife went back to work, I pulled my fair share of kitchen cleanup duty. (while she was a SAHM, I didn’t do much around the house since she was home all day.) I didn’t do laundry because every time I tried, she bitched me out for doing something wrong. So, I said fuck it and let her do it all. Same with loading the dishwasher. I’m all for constructive criticism, but “you did that all wrong” isn’t constructive. When my son was born, I used to come home from work every single day, take him and spend at least an hour alone with him to give my ex-wife time to unwind after spending all day at home with him. (usually it was several hours…) I changed my fair share of his diapers, gave baths, fed him, and generally was involved in his care, even though my wife was a SAHM until he started 1st grade. During the time in which we were having sex, 8 out of 10 times I MADE SURE she got “hers” before I got mine, by whatever means was necessary. (I’m not going to get into details, use your imagination if you want.) In fact, after she left she dropped some comments about how good in bed I supposedly was. I guess she didn’t find greener grass over that fence.

    And you know what really sucks? I still believe that deep down inside, she is a good person. I beta’d out massively, and she lost attraction. She found an old flame on Facebook, started and emotional affair, and ultimately left to “be on her own”, which meant going to him. And guess what? He turned out to be a slimy guy that had sex on video chat for others to watch. She was mortified and ended up living with her father for some time. She is with another guy now, and back to having the same problems we had in our own marriage. And, again, I consider her to be a good person. If that is even remotely true, what are the chances for a normal, healthy relationship lasting a lifetime? Even people I look at and consider “normal” like my ex are so screwed up that they can’t recognize a good relationship with issues and work on them, and instead simply bail when things get tough. She is smart, has a job in medicine, and is generally a responsible person. Yet she can’t figure out how the hell to be happy with herself, and with a partner. She has an above average IQ, and in fact has a better score than I do. (not saying I’m a genius, just pointing out that she is far from stupid).

    Did I screw up? For sure. I should have told her to quit acting like a stupid little girl and instead behave like a grown women, but I never in a million years would have figured that would be MY job to do prior to taking the red pill. I should have taken my push back on laundry and dishes and applied it to our entire relationship, but again, prior to the red pill I never would have believed a grown adult would push my limits so far that I wouldn’t even recognize where I was standing. I believed that she would respect my boundaries, and that all the bitching and complaining meant I wasn’t being accommodating enough for her, when in fact I was letting her walk all over me.

    So Tom, (or Tommett) fuck you. I may have screwed up, but I never once neglected my ex, or treated her like shit. In fact, the only thing I was guilty of is treating her like an adult, instead of a spoiled little brat of a girl. I should have put her over my knee and spanked her until my hand hurt.

  • HELP

    First time reader. Looking over my shoulder because my gf (first ever) doesn’t like me going on dating or relationship sites she says they will ruin our relationship. I guess you could say I’m a beta, maybe omega. She’s my first gf and I don’t want to lose her but I need to know what I’m dealing with here. We were at a movie the other night (rom com) and the couple were fighting and she said something about “you will end up hating women”. She when into my history while I was out and erased it so I couldn’t find the sites again. I just want to know what I’m dealing with.

  • Just1X

    @J

    “But anyone who thinks GTOW is an attractive first choice for anybody is fooling themselves.”

    I think we have some agreement here but I doubt that it’s total…

    The younger men who are marriage oriented but get no interest in their young selves (beta?) are one type of person to GTOW. They look at their options in younger life and decide to do something else. By the time the women are interested in these men’s increasing wealth and resources (because the women’s SMP value is dropping), the men may well not like the risk of marriage (too much to lose, and not sold on the dream of cohabiting, let alone marriage).

    (I did the trad marriage followed quickly by nouveau trad divorce (sans enfants). I decided I was done with that stuff -> GMOW. No financial biggy (fortunately).)

    So, first choice? no, I agree with you, but I don’t think that it’s last resort for men either. For women? I agree with Cappy Cap (link above).

    I also think that younger men now are more aware of the realities of the SMP and MMP than my (crumbly) generation was, so maybe more decisive about taking the MGTOW vs PUA decision. Some of the young MRAs (around and about the web) I have heard from are far more aware of the issues than I was, they don’t need to make the marriage mistake that I did.

  • J

    She is with another guy now, and back to having the same problems we had in our own marriage.

    Yeah, it’s amazing how that stuff follows people from one relationship to another. Part of being married is a willingness to work on one’s self.

  • @HELP: Get thee to Married Man Sex Life, go.

    Seriously, Athol Kay’s stuff will open your eyes, allow you to take the Red Pill without fear, and put your relationship-killing trepedations behind you. He lays out the whole deal: the SMP, the Rationalization Hamster, the Body Agenda, it’s like an Intro To The Red Pill. Athol brings Game to marriage and LTRs in a way that demonstrates How It Should Be Done. Can’t recommend it highly enough.

    But the first thing you should do is stop kissing her ass and insist that she treat you with respect. If she knows you want her more than she wants you, she retains the edge — and the control — in the relationship.

  • Just1X

    @J

    “It seemed that two toodler trailing after me really detracted from my sex appeal. ”

    No shit!!!!! LMAO

    Feminists and divorce advocates don’t seem to be very keen on advertising the average single man’s aversion to a single mum (beyond hook ups).

  • J

    @Chris_in_CA

    I don’t want to get into a “who hurts who more” pissing match, but every WGTOW that I know has several heartbreak stories of her own as well or, if very young, has witnessed her mother being mistreated. Like I said, it’s no one’s first choice.

  • Just1X

    @HELP

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/

    run – don’t walk!

    As Ian says, MMSL as well, if you insist that “She is the One”.

    They are both in the same ballpark regarding how women work, but Chateau / Heartiste / Roissy (the same guy) is for single men, Athol is for the already doomed (married) 🙂

  • J

    “It seemed that two toddlers trailing after me really detracted from my sex appeal. ”

    No shit!!!!! LMAO

    Yeah, apparently it doesn’t matter how cute the kids are if they look like another guy. Whodduh thunk it?

    To tell you the truth, I wasn’t too surprised by that when it happened. The shocker was that 10 years later, men started paying attention again when the kids weren’t around. The offensive thing is the guys who’ll make a play for you IN FRONT OF the kids.

    About a year ago, I was buying some clothes for the boys when a salesman made a play for me right in front of them. I heard my younger son grumble something and my older son replied to him, “No, Billy, a motherf’er is someone who fcuks his own mother, a guy who comes onto our mother in front of her kids is just an old pig.” I laughed, shrugged my shoulders, put my credit card back into my wallet and left.

  • I repeat something I said last year:

    Roissy to get ’em…

    Athol to keep ’em…

  • Pip

    “Re: WGTOW One, I don’t believe it. Sorry, just don’t.”

    We exist. Our continued happiness sure gives job security to its doomsayers. My apologies if this fact ruins any misery-loves-company reverie yall were enjoying. If you need to daydream, try doing it to the latest from Mazzy Star, “Lay Myself Down,” linked to through my name.

    Pip pip hooray! ^_^

  • Just1X

    @J

    “The offensive thing is the guys who’ll make a play for you IN FRONT OF the kids.

    About a year ago, I was buying some clothes for the boys when a salesman made a play for me right in front of them. I heard my younger son grumble something and my older son replied to him, “No, Billy, a motherf’er is someone who fcuks his own mother, a guy who comes onto our mother in front of her kids is just an old pig.” I laughed, shrugged my shoulders, put my credit card back into my wallet and left.”

    Don’t know about offensive, but unwise? yeah!

    How come your kids aren’t interested in your happiness? I’m not a parent, but this is somewhat disappointing isn’t it? This sounds like the kids are treating their mum in the same way that men complain that women are treating them (solipsistically – it’s all about them). As I said, I am not (thank-ferk) a parent, so bow to your superior wisdom over kidness.

  • ozymandias

    Tom: So you’re suggesting that every breakup is because men don’t do their share of the chores? Um. No. Stop being on the vaguely-feminist side, you’re making us look bad. 😛

    There’s lots of reasons why people break up, ranging from the relationship being abusive to different life-plans to one person’s values shifting to not being attracted to each other anymore to communication failures to a sudden and strange aversion to redheads. No two breakups are the same.

  • What a chart
    What a DRAG
    when casual sex
    becomes routinized

    • What a DRAG
      when casual sex
      becomes routinized

      There’s nothing for routine than an alcohol-fueled hookup. Women only cum 18% of the time. And guys only half the time! Now that’s what I call a drag.

  • J

    How come your kids aren’t interested in your happiness?

    I guess they’re more interested in their own happiness, part of which hinges on me and their father continuing to be happily married. 😉

    You didn’t realize that I’m married? Further upthread, I said that I was surprised that men approach me despite my age, modest dress AND a visible wedding ring.

    On my way out the door. If I don’t respond further, it’s because I’m gone, not because I’m offended.

  • Herb

    @Tom

    I feel bad for any man whos woman left him. But I would bet, if he had treated her better, helped in the kitchen, the laundry room and changed a thousand diapers, maybe his woman would not have developed resentment toward him for not pulling his weight in the relationship.

    Yeah, because working two or more jobs while she worked part time at best, working full time while going to school full time while she worked part time and went to school for a second degree in art of all things full time, living where she wanted to live (building and state including changing where I was going to college an what I would major in as a result), and so on wasn’t treating her well enough.

    Having a stay at home and no kids wife who still complained I didn’t do enough housework while working two jobs wasn’t treating her well enough.

    I used the word “ridden” above for a reason. You may like being broken to the saddle for nothing in exchange Tom, but don’t push that on the rest of us.

  • Just1X

    @Ozy

    yeah – my wife turned into her mother – game irrevocably over

  • Just1X

    @J

    okay, sorry I missed the married bit – my bad. that does change things markedly.

  • Herb

    @HELP

    She when into my history while I was out and erased it so I couldn’t find the sites again. I just want to know what I’m dealing with.

    Based on her invading your privacy to control what you see, I suspect she’s either immature or hiding something depending on your age (of which I’m not sure).

    Also stupid, because erasing your history will only slow you down a little in the age of Google.

  • @SW
    “The average person spends a full 14 years between puberty and marriage.”

    If one defines serial monogamy as temporary monogamous relationships that will eventually end, then I’d say the average person spends less than half of these 14 years in such situations. Allowing for periods completely single, and then several years of dating/living with one’s future spouse, serial monogamy isn’t as bad as some would make it out to be. It’s funny, the only other things I’ve heard referred to with that term are serial cheating/philandering, and serial killing. There’s clearly a negative connotation : |

    However, IMO young women are far more likely to go the serial route than young men. Relationships (short-term or otherwise) seem much easier to get into for the ladies. The average woman will probably have more relationship “experience” than the guy she ends up marrying. Cause for concern? Maybe…

    • @Megaman

      It’s funny, the only other things I’ve heard referred to with that term are serial cheating/philandering, and serial killing. There’s clearly a negative connotation : |

      Actually, among young people the term “serial monogamist” does have quite a negative connotation. It refers to a person who can’t bear to be alone. They’ll take whatever they can just to have a relationship, and the moment it ends, they audition everyone in their circle for the new one. I saw this happen with one of the women in my focus groups. Her relationship ended, she took a look around at her social circle, musing over who might fill his spot. The very next weekend she made out with a guy whom she had previously deemed very unattractive. Within two weeks they were officially dating. It’s been over a year, and they’re going strong. I don’t get it. I’d like to think she fell for him once she got to know him, but I’m afraid she’ll ditch him when her pool of “potential new boyfriends” becomes attractive enough. Ugh.

  • J

    @SW

    This is my main problem with attempts to shame serial monogamy. The average person spends a full 14 years between puberty and marriage. Sex will be had. I argue that sex in the context of a relationship is far preferable to casual sex.

    Cosigned completely. There’s been a lot written in the ‘sphere in the attempt to slut-shame women in early marriage or to lower the age of first maariage by discouraging education and career for women. Frankly, I can’t see that being effective. It’s possible that there are social changes on the horizon as college becomes les affordable, that may have that effect, but any changes that come will be the result of changing social and economic conditions, not from the notion that serial monogamy is the preferred from of female promiscuity and therefore bad.

    I think it’s beneficial for young men and women to gain relationship skills before their late 20s.

    I wonder if there is a crtical time period for that and if people who don’t acquire relationship skills in that time frame either lose out permanently or have a significantly harder time with the opposite sex.

    Of course, guys may prefer to avoid commitment altogether, which is significantly more likely than women avoiding sex altogether.

    Yes!

    • @J

      I wonder if there is a crtical time period for that and if people who don’t acquire relationship skills in that time frame either lose out permanently or have a significantly harder time with the opposite sex.

      My own sense is that the people avoiding relationships when young and playing the field are going to have higher divorce rates in general, and I think that will be exacerbated according to their level of premarital promiscuity. IOW, sluts marry sluts – I don’t think that’s going to work out too well.

      I don’t think anyone needs more than one intimate relationship. As you know, my advice to young people is to stick with the first suitable person they fall in love with, even if they’re young.

  • J

    Not a problem, Just 1X.

  • ozymandias

    Susan: News at eleven– having casual sex is a shitty way to get relationships. Particularly having casual sex while drunk with people you don’t particularly like!* So I am going to make the radical proposal here that if you want a relationship and not casual sex, you shouldn’t have casual sex. Lots of people in college are interested in relationships! Find them and date them! It is really not that hard.

    Honestly, I am slightly puzzled at the idea that casual sex that doesn’t result in a relationship is bad. How do we know that it’s a failed attempt to get a relationship as opposed to a successful attempt to get casual sex?

    *This also appears to be a shitty way to get a lot of things, including “good sex.” As a general rule, you should have sex with people you like! I’d add “sober,” but that might just be the straightedge talking. (GOD how do you people stand alcohol it is SO GROSS.)

  • J

    Women only cum 18% of the time.

    Not surprised. Married women have far more satisfying sex lives than single women

    And guys only half the time!

    That truly surprises me. I thought that girls were giving a lot of bjs and getting nothing back.

    • @J

      That truly surprises me. I thought that girls were giving a lot of bjs and getting nothing back.

      I suspect the culprit is whiskey dick… :-/

  • Herb

    @ozymandias

    Honestly, I am slightly puzzled at the idea that casual sex that doesn’t result in a relationship is bad. How do we know that it’s a failed attempt to get a relationship as opposed to a successful attempt to get casual sex?

    Because a lot of people are having casual sex as a relationship getting method. Thus, when they have casual sex with someone who is using casual sex to get casual sex they feel cheated.

    What they should feel is stupid and trying other methods.

    Also, remember, casual sex is empowering and shows you’re in control of your body and you can make your own choices and proves you’re not different from a man and, and…

    Hey, VNV Nation has a new album out…you go grrl, I’ll be over hear checking this out.

  • Herb

    @J

    That truly surprises me. I thought that girls were giving a lot of bjs and getting nothing back.

    The tiny bit of player in me wonders if you know any of these women and can I have their number. It’s been so long since I’ve had one.

  • Herb, why would you have a stay-at-home wife when you have no kids? Even here, Mormon women work until they get pregnant, then they stay at home after giving birth. I’ve had a male coworker comment on this about one of the jobs he had in a more rural area of Utah.

    Ozymandias, sex with love is farrrrr superior to sex with mere like. Also, I can’t stand alcohol or polygamy, so does that make me more judgemental? 😛

  • J

    The tiny bit of player in me wonders if you know any of these women and can I have their number. It’s been so long since I’ve had one.

    LOL. Aw, Herb…

  • ozymandias

    Herb: As a sex-positive person, I think making the sexual choices you want to make is empowering and shows you control your body and make your own choices, whether the sexual choices you want to make are “ALL OF THE DRUNKEN SEX WITH PEOPLE I DON’T LIKE!” or “I’m going to be a virgin till I get married!” Or something else! Do what makes you happy! If something doesn’t make you happy, do something else and fuck the haters!

    Hope: I dunno, depends on if you’re being an asshole towards other people about their drinking and multiple-marriage habits. 😛

    As someone who’s experienced both, comparing sex with love and sex with like is like comparing Ferris wheels and rollercoasters. They’re both fun; some people like one, some people like the other, some people like both, some people like neither. You could compare them and be like “rollercoasters are the most fun!” but that tells you absolutely nothing useful about either experience.

    …Also because you can totally have crap sex with someone you’re in love with or great sex with someone you’re friends with. I guess that would be the “if a rollercoaster is crap then it is not fun” bit in the metaphor?

  • sweetsue

    @Just1X

    Not all women who go their own way had it forced on them. Women with self respect who saw that once legal status and standing had been attained the via the “feminist” “right to life on the same terms as men” was a losing proposition. Just because you have the “right, freedom” to act does not mean it is your own best interest to act without thinking. Those women with critical thinking skills and self respect refused to trade the “patriarchal view” for the radical feminist dogma. These women with self respect and critical thinking skills always recognized their power and freedom to be self determining came from within and opted to retain their personal power; pursued equal treatment under the law and let society think as they so chose and owned their choices and the responsibility that comes with making choices. These same women view men as fellow human beings. Most people lack the self respect and self confidence to think critically and act accordingly – hence the Hook Up culture and wars.

    The price paid for these WGTOW by choice (WGTOWBC) is pressure to conform from “feminists” who are threatened by women who have the stamina to make their own choices and not bow to pressure. These women know they do not have anything to prove and are comfortable with themselves. So they are not putting out then pulling back to relationship mode. Some may have tried it found it lacking and completed a course correction; eliminating sunk costs. This is most likely why WGTOWBC do not unite to fight against those giving away as someone called it “free milk”; they know that hooking up is an expensive failure. They have nothing to lose not engaging in the fight.

    In contrast WGTOW by default started late and after many and varied battle scars and these women writ large are angry and as described desperate for relationships and often spout the “feminist party line” rather than lose the sunk cost for blind allegiance to the “movement”.

    Great graphic Susan- hope it provides a wake up call for some of the “feminist sheeple”

  • INTJ

    This is my main problem with attempts to shame serial monogamy. The average person spends a full 14 years between puberty and marriage. Sex will be had. I argue that sex in the context of a relationship is far preferable to casual sex. Obviously, rapid firing one’s way through tons of relationships is just another form of promiscuity, but I think it’s beneficial for young men and women to gain relationship skills before their late 20s. Of course, guys may prefer to avoid commitment altogether, which is significantly more likely than women avoiding sex altogether.

    I’m not going to practice serial monogamy. If I get really tired of waiting, I’ll have NSA sex, because I don’t have the emotional energy to go through a series of temporary relationships.

    When I choose someone to marry, I’m definitely going to judge her on her past relationships – casual or otherwise. This is especially so because women don’t have to wait till they’re older for their MMV to go up. If she was too busy with career or whatever to look for a husband and didn’t have the self-control to wait, then I’m going to hold that against her.

  • sweetsue

    @Herb
    Interesting comments…
    “A lot of people are having casual sex as a relationship getting method. Thus, when they have casual sex with someone who is using casual sex to get casual sex they feel cheated.”

    This is the problem with the NSA/HUS culture it is inherently dishonest and self serving. People lie to themselves and each other about what their real desires are from the outset and fail to communicate clearly and honestly about their motives. There is nothing wrong with being self serving and wanting what you want; but be up front about it so the other person can make an informed decision. Own your issues and take responsibility for dealing with those issues and the consequences and cost of decisions. Respect yourself and others enough to be honest.

  • Ozymandias, I live and let live, and I am fine with other people’s choices as long as they don’t mess with me. People who drink are cool, if they don’t drink and drive.

    Personally, I think telling people to have sex with “like” or with “friends” is like telling them it’s okay to drink and drive. Sure you might still get to your intended destination, but you’re taking a much bigger risk, not to mention risk running over innocent people.

    • Personally, I think telling people to have sex with “like” or with “friends” is like telling them it’s okay to drink and drive. Sure you might still get to your intended destination, but you’re taking a much bigger risk, not to mention risk running over innocent people.

      There is a small minority of women who just want casual, period. That’s awesome for them, they should always have takers. I made the flowchart to drive the point home that if one hopes to get to “Date” there are many potential wrong turns.

  • Plus, then you create a culture in which it’s socially sanctioned albeit slightly (and only slightly) frowned upon to drink and drive. Oh you’re only a little tipsy, you’ll be careful, etc. Same thing with casual sex. Oh you’re friends, it’s not a big deal, etc. End results are messy driving with more accidents and worse sexual atmosphere with more issues all around…

    In my view, sex is positive when taken seriously, done with love and care, and the opposite of positive when done casually, without precautions and carelessly.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    On serial monogamy.

    Dating =/= serial monogamy.
    Serial monogamy is when you dump your fiance/husband/boyfriend etc. and find a new one, on purpose. Some relationships just don’t work out and thats fine but if you keep doing it over and over again, thats a bad sign.

    Personally when I say I hate serial monogamy I’m referring to the marriage variety over dating. Dating is at best a neutral thing, good or evil is dependent on its use.

    Also, your right. Sex in relationship is > casual in terms of judgement of partner count. Don’t know why it just is.

  • this is Jen

    Ted said
    And you know what really sucks? I still believe that deep down inside, she is a good person. I beta’d out massively, and she lost attraction.
    —————————————————————————-

    I appreciated your rant, Ted.
    Ithink this is a huge part of what happened in my marriage ( coupled with one giant IMPORTANT, NON NEGOTIABLE lie that turned up late in the marriage)

    My husband beta’d out. I became more and more of the husband as time went by….which just made resentment grow.

    I hope he would say the same thing about me that you did about your ex- that I’m a good person. Looking back and trying to gain insight has taken alot of years. He did tell me he was deleriously happy until the day I left him. ( of course I tried and tried to improve things, tried to get him to understand- but looking back I dont think I really knew myself)

    Luckily for me, I eventually found a much much better match. And as I do gain insight I now know why this marriage is so great.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “I wonder if there is a crtical time period for that and if people who don’t acquire relationship skills in that time frame either lose out permanently or have a significantly harder time with the opposite sex.”

    My experience says emphatically NOT. The only quality men I know of at the age of 25 have had few or ZERO relationships prior to their current one.

    This whole “date a lot of people” thing seems to be exclusively a female trait in my own social circle, which really doesn’t help to lessen my suspicion that it is an excuse for serial monogamy and using the incredible leverage women have at an early age to “sample.”

    Which is something that isn’t really afforded to men.

    Do not be surprised if quality men consider a large number of LTRs, even WITHOUT sex, to be negatives, and that women with a serial monogamous past are going to be expected to ante up their game.

  • ozymandias

    Hope: You mean that having casual sex has a risk of killing passerby? Oh no! I’ll stop having casual sex immediately!

  • Dogsquat

    @Susan and J:

    ” I wonder if there is a crtical time period for that and if people who don’t acquire relationship skills in that time frame either lose out permanently or have a significantly harder time with the opposite sex.

    My own sense is that the people avoiding relationships when young and playing the field are going to have higher divorce rates in general, and I think that will be exacerbated according to their level of premarital promiscuity. ”
    _________________________

    I agree that having a good relationship is a learned skill. It’s possible to learn from one partner or several, but either way – your ass is gonna learn something.

    For example, I struggle sometimes with cohabitation – not as bad as I used to, but it’s not as easy for me as, say, tying my shoes. There’s an art to it, a sort of learned social lubrication, that has never come easy for me.

    I don’t have a problem living with other people – I’ve done fine with male (even female) roommates, or even in berthing areas on amphibious assault ships. Those are your buddies, and it’s usually fun.

    Living with a girlfriend is somehow different, though.

    I have hope for myself, though. The other day I looked at the sheer acreage of space in my shower and bathroom sink lost to multitudinous lotions, shampoos, scrubs, soaps, cleansers, cleansing foaming face scrubs, creams, perfumes, makeup, potions, masques, and drums of jojoba oil.

    I did not curse Vidal Sassoon, nor imagine taking a flamethrower to Garnier corporate headquarters. I did not do any mental arithmetic like “If we spend three nights a week together, on average, this crap will more than double if we actually move in together….carry the nine….divide by Gillette….”

    I simply showered, scraped my face, and brushed my fangs, wading without complaint through the knee-deep pastel plastic bottle pit that’s somehow replaced my bathroom.

    Next week I am seeing a psychiatrist for help in dealing with the Imelda Marcos-like volume of shoes accumulating in my closet.

    As I said – I am hopeful.

  • Dogsquat

    @Hope:

    I tend to agree with you about casual sex being at best neutral and and worst harmful for the majority of people.

    Ozymandias, though, is a Special Case. She’s not some wide-eyed ingenue who hasn’t spared a thought about this stuff. She’s got her crap together, near as I can tell. I respect her as a fellow outlier on the Bell Curve of human sexuality.

    If you haven’t, I encourage you to go peruse her blog. I poked around over there several months ago.

    I suspect you (Hope) and I are wired pretty similarly about lots of things, while Ozy is wired in a very different way. She’s internally consistent and fair, yet entirely alien to me. It was quite interesting to see such a different perspective.

  • SayWhaat

    If you really think about it, it’s a bigger achievement for a modern girl to hold off until college then it was for a Victorian girl who reached puberty at 15 to wait for marriage at 17.

    Well I guess that makes me the Champion of champions at the Self-Control Olympics.

  • SayWhaat

    Actually, among young people the term “serial monogamist” does have quite a negative connotation. It refers to a person who can’t bear to be alone. They’ll take whatever they can just to have a relationship, and the moment it ends, they audition everyone in their circle for the new one. I saw this happen with one of the women in my focus groups. Her relationship ended, she took a look around at her social circle, musing over who might fill his spot. The very next weekend she made out with a guy whom she had previously deemed very unattractive. Within two weeks they were officially dating. It’s been over a year, and they’re going strong. I don’t get it. I’d like to think she fell for him once she got to know him, but I’m afraid she’ll ditch him when her pool of “potential new boyfriends” becomes attractive enough. Ugh.

    One of my good friends from college was like this too. She’d pick up a new relationship as soon as she decided she wanted another one. She had no problem doing so — one time she literally met a guy in a park and they were official 2 weeks later. She had sex with them before each relationship became official, too.

    I don’t know how she does it. She’s super well-kept and feminine…but flaky as fuck, goddamn.

  • ozymandias

    Dogsquat: Ugh, I know. I have no idea what half the stuff my girlfriend has on her side of the bathroom counter even DOES, except that some of it looks like torture devices.

    See, I think my sexual ethics is the most sensible, because it also allows for people who like what for want of a better word I will call “normal” sex and relationships to have perfectly happy and enjoyable sex lives. And we people who don’t want it can go off on our polyamorous adventures! It works out well for everyone. 🙂

    You can’t peruse the old blog, unfortunately, I set it to private a while back.

  • “When I choose someone to marry, I’m definitely going to judge her on her past relationships – casual or otherwise.”

    From what I’ve heard, seen, and read, women are employing this strategy more and more, as well. I don’t mean the promiscuous ones. I’ve personally known of three guys who got stung by the reverse SDS.

    • @Megaman

      I’ve personally known of three guys who got stung by the reverse SDS.

      I’d love to hear those stories – can you fill in the deets?

  • Richard Aubrey

    Guy named Cunningham runs a blog for what amounts to game in marriage.
    Among other things, he says wives will run shit tests until the day they die. If you get tired of the conflict, if you don’t know how to manage it, you will, as a poster here said, “beta up”. And then she’s unhappy.
    His view is that women can’t help it and shouldn’t be condemned for it. The hubby just has to be able to handle it, which means seeing it when it happens.
    It’s an interesting view and might well describe LTR, or even the STR, or the first part of an LTR which looks like a STR. Marriage is not required for this to happen.

    IMO, a shit test can’t be over something important or expensive. If the guy fails a shit test and does something important that he shouldn’t do, the results are catastrophic.
    So shit tests are generally around small stuff. Simple–to say–is to never do anything you think you shouldn’t, whether you think it’s a shit test or just a difference in opinion or judgment. Problem is, since it’s a little thing more than likely, going along won’t seem like such a big deal.
    Wrong.

    A different tactic is to say, in effect, “Sure. Do it your way. Let me know how it works out.” IOW, “I dare you.”

    Conclusion is that going beta includes but is not limited to doing things you know you shouldn’t be doing. Stop that. But making a one-eighty on the issue is going to make a lot of noise in the beginning.

  • Esau

    Dogsquat: Ozymandias, though, is a Special Case. …. She’s got her crap together, near as I can tell.

    Hmm. Before your cup runs over here, DS, you may want to read this fairly recent post

    http://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/happy-april-first/

    wherein a blogger posting as “ozymandias42” reveals that she considers the troubles of your life to be a joke. Literally. As a bonus challenge, if you can make it through the comments without hurling, I’ll be impressed. (Susan, sorry for the cross-blog static; I won’t bring it up here again.) Caveat lector, and all that.

    Ozy: Stop being on the vaguely-feminist side, you’re making us look bad.

    This may be a good time to recall the old phrase, “You can’t fall off the floor.”

  • Dogsquat

    @Ozy

    “See, I think my sexual ethics is the most sensible, because it also allows for people who like what for want of a better word I will call “normal” sex and relationships to have perfectly happy and enjoyable sex lives. ”
    ________________________
    There was an element in what I read back then that was subtly different than many other sex pozzie folks, though:

    It seemed to me that you were very forthright about casual sex not being for everyone. There are seemingly a lot of folks out there proselytizing that casual sex = empowerment. Period. End of story. They sort of push it on people. I think that’s detrimental, as I believe Hope does.

    You seemed to offer your viewpoint for consideration, instead. It’s the difference between telling a guy he’s gotta drink to be a man and saying,”Hey, red wine might have some health benefits. If you drink too much, though, you’re gonna puke. Also, don’t drink and drive.”

    You were also very accepting of my views. You and I are totally different, but I’m not picking your pocket or breaking your leg, so you don’t give a shit. I feel the same. Not everyone who identifies as sex positive is the same, as evidenced by a few of your commenters.

  • Dogsquat

    Esau, I took that as an April Fool’s joke.

  • Geez Dogsquat. I think I have fewer pairs of shoes than my husband does (about 3?), and I use exactly two lotion products and zero makeup, so our bathroom countertop is pretty barren.

    Anyway, I don’t mind the people with different/poly wiring. They’re doing their own off-road stuff and not affecting normal traffic. But the people who I have to share a road with… I really don’t want them to drink and drive.

    Maybe this is just a crappy analogy, but since I’m pregnant, and I know people who have gotten into accidents that weren’t their fault while pregnant, plus kids that have been killed by drunk drivers, I’m really hung up on this point.

  • Abbot

    So Tom, (or Tommett) fuck you

    Um. No. Stop being on the vaguely-feminist side, you’re making us look bad.

    You may like being broken to the saddle for nothing in exchange Tom, but don’t push that on the rest of us.

    —————————————————-

    Folks, try to remember why this person posts. There is an agenda there and its nothing personal, really

  • Dogsquat

    @Hope

    I was going to offer words of encouragement in the form of a long treatise encompassing physics, physiology, and mechanical engineering. Then I went back and read what I’d written.

    I have a different bit of advice for you:

    If a guy wearing a jacket that says PARAMEDIC on the back starts talking with you about pregnancy and car crashes, just tell him to fuck off. Seriously – you’re doing yourself a favor. What he thinks is encouraging will sound awful to a normal person.

    He might get miffed at first, but eventually he’ll remember what he does for a living. He will make an effort to maintain polite, non-gory conversation from that point forward. Especially in front of pregnant ladies.

  • J

    I’m not going to practice serial monogamy. If I get really tired of waiting, I’ll have NSA sex, because I don’t have the emotional energy to go through a series of temporary relationships.

    I’m not sure that women set out intentionally to practice serial monogamy. I would assume that most women think that their first love will last forever and then rack up enough second and third tries until they look back and see that what they’ve particpated in has in fact become serial monogamy. Bear in mind that, for many women, that chain of relationships will include incidences of being dumped by guys or having NSA sex with the one-sided assumption that strings are attached.

    When you have NSA sex will you explicitly let the women know that is your intention or will you expect her to correctly quess your intentions, thus becoming part of a “number” that will make her unattractive to guys who feel as you do? My guess is that guys would say straight up that it’s NSA don’t get much sex.

  • PS, if you like VNV Nation, Apoptygma Berzerk and Assemblage 23 are really good.

    Hubby is that you? You are totally talking his language here. I just know a bit about it.

    A) emotional investment and friendship to B) love and relationship to C) living together to D) engaged and married. All this happened in a year, and we were 25

    Skipping rewording A with just emotional investment I don’t do friends first and skipping C this was more or less the way it happened for us around a year too.

    My experience says emphatically NOT. The only quality men I know of at the age of 25 have had few or ZERO relationships prior to their current one.

    Cosign this I barely had any personal experience before my hubby. Everything I learned about relationships I learned from my parents and my older friends. Don’t we live in the age of information? People shouldn’t need a new boyfriend every year to learn to deal with people me thinks.

    “See, I think my sexual ethics is the most sensible, because it also allows for people who like what for want of a better word I will call “normal” sex and relationships to have perfectly happy and enjoyable sex lives. ”

    As with the example of the 14 year old girl that wants to have sex with a 40 year old guy, your ethics do restrict people and you do have standards on what is “proper” so you are not different than slut shamers you just picked a different poison.

    Geez Dogsquat. I think I have fewer pairs of shoes than my husband does (about 3?), and I use exactly two lotion products and zero makeup, so our bathroom countertop is pretty barren.

    The issue hubby has is in invasion is that I have hundreds of hair products for any one here that is not black is probably puzzling but for our hair to look half way decent you need all the help in the world and then some prayers.

  • J

    @SW

    M own sense is that the people avoiding relationships when young and playing the field are going to have higher divorce rates in general, and I think that will be exacerbated according to their level of premarital promiscuity. IOW, sluts marry sluts – I don’t think that’s going to work out too well.

    I think that’s very true of people who avoid relationships but play the field. I think I misunderstood you further upthread. Oddly, I was thinking more about people who avoid relationships and do not play the field at all when I talked about a “critical time frame.” I would assume that some people who fail to launch in their 20s may never launch at all.

    As to whiskey dick, that hadn’t occured to me. I’ve never had that the experience of being with a man who was that drunk. I don’t think that sex was so casual back in our day that people had to be blitzed out of their minds to do it. Some days, I thank God I’m old.

    Did you see this week’s “Girls”? Hannah has an STD check, and the middle-aged female doctor who takes care of her says that she thanks God that she isn’t 24 in today’s SMP. I’m loving the show; it’s such a cautionary tale. If I had a daughter, I’d make her watch it.

    • @J

      Did you see this week’s “Girls”? Hannah has an STD check, and the middle-aged female doctor who takes care of her says that she thanks God that she isn’t 24 in today’s SMP. I’m loving the show; it’s such a cautionary tale. If I had a daughter, I’d make her watch it.

      I too am loving it. It portrays (satirizes?) the SMP brilliantly – the most recent episode has an awesome textbook example of Game.

  • I’m not sure that women set out intentionally to practice serial monogamy. I would assume that most women think that their first love will last forever and then rack up enough second and third tries until they look back and see that what they’ve particpated in has in fact become serial monogamy. Bear in mind that, for many women, that chain of relationships will include incidences of being dumped by guys or having NSA sex with the one-sided assumption that strings are attached.

    Interestingly enough I met a couple of women that are not shy about stating that they can’t stand being with the same guy for more than 3 years I will think they are aware of being serious monogamers. I wonder if they tell them this before they commit,or in the case of the last one marry. I will ask next time…maybe.

  • J

    My experience says emphatically NOT. The only quality men I know of at the age of 25 have had few or ZERO relationships prior to their current one.

    Perhaps this is generational. All the men in my DH’s peer group who hadn’t formed relationships in their 20s are still single in their 50s and rather socially isolated. I can say the same of the “old maids” in my peer group.

    Good to know though. It seems more hopeful than what I’d envisioned.

  • ozymandias

    Esau: Yep. April Fool’s joke. Personally I feel I do a fairly decent Roissy impression, all things considered (although I know I missed a few buzzwords!). Next year I’m thinking radfem.

    And surely there can be people I’m ashamed to be associated with…?

    Dogsquat: There’s actually been a lot of critique around the sex-positive community of the “sex is necessarily awesome” viewpoint: if you’re interested, you might want to check out this post on why sex-positivity is bad for sex workers, or Radtransfem’s writing about sex-negativity. (Although she is a RADICAL feminist, so I doubt most people here would find much to like about her.)

    But yeah. I tend to consider people who take a more nuanced, almost libertarian view of sex to be real sex-pozzies and the rest to, at best, have some growing-up to do.

    Anacaona: Yes, I have standards. My standards are that safe, emotionally healthy, honest, and consensual sex is okay; the forty-year-old dude fucking a fourteen-year-old almost certainly violates #2 and possibly #4 as well (there’s an undue risk of the forty-year-old pressuring the naive fourteen-year-old with his greater life experience and so on). My argument is simply that my standards are better and lead to greater long-run happiness than any other standards that I know about. 🙂

  • ozymandias

    I can personally testify that there are absolutely lovely gentlemen who would make excellent partners and who haven’t had their first kiss by their early twenties. However, I can also personally testify there are also absolutely lovely gentlemen who would make excellent partners and who have had so much casual sex they are uncertain of their number of actual partners. My anecdata seem to show very little correlation between number of sex partners and quality of person as a partner.

  • J

    @Saay WhatWell I guess that makes me the Champion of champions at the Self-Control Olympics.

    Congrats!!!

    LOL. Then I must have been initial record setter.

    @Dogsquat

    I congratulate on your self-control as well. The proliferation of cosmetics in the master bath at Casa J is a subject of much heated debate and many (empty) threats of simply sweeping the whole lot into the garbage. Hope you do as well with wet lingerie drying on the towel racks.

  • Ian

    This is my main problem with attempts to shame serial monogamy. The average person spends a full 14 years between puberty and marriage. Sex will be had. I argue that sex in the context of a relationship is far preferable to casual sex. Obviously, rapid firing one’s way through tons of relationships is just another form of promiscuity, but I think it’s beneficial for young men and women to gain relationship skills before their late 20s. Of course, guys may prefer to avoid commitment altogether, which is significantly more likely than women avoiding sex altogether.

    Two issues.

    One, if we look at your chart, over the long haul, the “Dates” too are followed by “Dumps”, which blurs things up a bit. Two, doing the math on those sexually active years: a slew of “successful” sexual relationships lasting over a year, a few non-starter relationships, a few mistakes, it’s easy for an N to hit double-digits, especially for an attractive partner.

    If we’re taking the male preference for low N as a biological impetus for paternal investment, those ten sexually active years are the elephant in the room. A 22 year-old who messed around a bit through college is sitting in the same N-chair as a normal 28 year-old monogamist, and sitting in it more fertilely.

    Marriage, I believe, is what we’re talking about, even if it’s grand-motherly uncool to say. To me, dating is the same song as hooking up, played at a different beat. Preferable, but mainly when presented in the dichotomy. There’s also courting, for marriage.

    • @Ian

      If we’re taking the male preference for low N as a biological impetus for paternal investment, those ten sexually active years are the elephant in the room. A 22 year-old who messed around a bit through college is sitting in the same N-chair as a normal 28 year-old monogamist, and sitting in it more fertilely.

      While most women never come close to double digits, I think that attractive women who are approached a lot and/or sexually adventurous women are likely to get there. So it is a problem for men who want either for marriage.

      The problem is, there is no plausible strategy for reducing the age at marriage. Most of the writing I’ve seen about this takes a shaming approach to remind women their ovaries are turning into raisins.

      From a female POV, the best strategy is a small number of LTRs, though that’s easier said than done in an SMP where male interest in commitment is low.

  • Yes, I have standards. My standards are that safe, emotionally healthy, honest, and consensual sex is okay; the forty-year-old dude fucking a fourteen-year-old almost certainly violates #2 and possibly #4 as well (there’s an undue risk of the forty-year-old pressuring the naive fourteen-year-old with his greater life experience and so on).My argument is simply that my standards are better and lead to greater long-run happiness than any other standards that I know about

    Yes because no 14 year old is capable of lying about her age to get that man to bang her without him knowing…get a grip Ozy you are just playing the whole Men are always bad and women are always good in sexual matters that feminists had sold everyone. I personally knew tons of 12 to 14 year olds that will harrass a man with every single weapon their feminine wiles made available to them, regardless of consequences sometimes counting on them to win money, social status and so on… And you know I’m not shy on calling on predatory and Alpha assholes men but I’m fair and not blind to gender.

  • J

    @Ana

    Interestingly enough I met a couple of women that are not shy about stating that they can’t stand being with the same guy for more than 3 years I will think they are aware of being serious monogamers.

    Perhaps this a better example of what intentional serial monogamy is than women who accumulate a number of broken relationships unintentionally. I have the impression that serial monogamy in the ‘sphere has to do with having a number of serious relationships/LTR before marriage no matter how they broke up or what the woman’s intentions were.

  • ExNewYorker

    “When you have NSA sex will you explicitly let the women know that is your intention or will you expect her to correctly quess your intentions, thus becoming part of a “number” that will make her unattractive to guys who feel as you do?”

    Cads, stop making the hookup culture so unfair to women! It’s unfair that you cads are preying on all those poor women!

    It’s always amusing seeing Tradcon women wanting “hookup culture” to be “fair”.

    “I’m not sure that women set out intentionally to practice serial monogamy”.

    http://adweek.blogs.com/.a/6a00d8341c51c053ef014e8706f31d970d-pi

    I’ll have a glass of whatever she’s having 🙂

  • J

    I have hundreds of hair products for any one here that is not black is probably puzzling but for our hair to look half way decent you need all the help in the world and then some prayers

    I’m not black, but I love AA hair and skin care products. Shea and cocoa butters are the best moisturizers around!

  • J

    @ENY

    Cads, stop making the hookup culture so unfair to women! It’s unfair that you cads are preying on all those poor women!

    So you’re saying that someone who is going to insist on a certain moral standard from women maintains the right to deceive women?

    If a guy is planning to have NSA sex as INTJ says he, I think he is hypocritical in using women and then judging women who have used. If he’s straight up about it though, let the buyer beware.

  • @J
    “My guess is that guys would say straight up that it’s NSA don’t get much sex.”

    If you combine honesty before nookie + the absence of alcohol, and probably 90% of NSA sex goes away overnight. From what some of my female friends have told me, guys looking for short-term fun are only up front about it afterwards. I recall GQ advising men to be as vague as possible about their intentions. Equivocation WRT sex is apparently a “manly” trait, or so they say. I seriously doubt the term “gentleman” applies to the magazine anymore. Not that I’m a subscriber : )

  • ExNewYorker

    “If a guy is planning to have NSA sex as INTJ says he, I think he is hypocritical in using women and then judging women who have used.”

    Yes, they are hypocrites, and all the bad stuff you want to say about them. It’s why they’re cads. But they’re a second order effect, not the proximate cause. Attempting to shame the cads into “honorable” behavior is just another form of burying one’s head in the sand, and avoiding dealing with the proximate cause.

    “Perhaps this a better example of what intentional serial monogamy is than women who accumulate a number of broken relationships unintentionally.”

    I’ll have ask my favorite cads if they were being “intentional” cads, or just unintentional cads.

    Since apparently the drink wasn’t strong enough, I’ll have whatever she’s smoking now 🙂

  • J

    If you combine honesty before nookie + the absence of alcohol, and probably 90% of NSA sex goes away overnight. From what some of my female friends have told me, guys looking for short-term fun are only up front about it afterwards.

    No surprises there, Megaman.

    I recall GQ advising men to be as vague as possible about their intentions.

    And this, ENY and INTJ, is where my objection lies. If you are having NSA sex with someone who’s DTF with NSA, that’s one thing. But I think those girls are not the norm. If you are lying by omission to someone like Jane in SW’S Tom and Jane story and then have the nerve to be judgmental about the behavior of others, that’s hypocritical and most likely evidence of low character. And, if I had a daughter who was dating a guy who did that, I’d tell her to run for the hills.

  • J

    ENY

    See my post #115. It partially answers your #114. I’m going to bed now.

  • ExNewYorker

    “If you are lying by omission to someone like Jane in SW’S Tom and Jane story and then have the nerve to be judgmental about the behavior of others, that’s hypocritical and most likely evidence of low character.”

    Yes, but so what? They bad cad is still a second order effect. By definition, he’s not going to be shamed into “better” behavior. Incentives drive behavior. The forces that used to police the cads have been dismantled by the same people complaining about the cads.

    “And, if I had a daughter who was dating a guy who did that, I’d tell her to run for the hills.”

    Ah, now you’re dealing with proximate causes. After the last smoke, I was afraid you’d go on to injections 🙂

    Looks at Susan’s chart…what you’re trying to do is to make the red boxes into green ones by shaming the cads. But the cads aren’t driving the market!

  • ExNewYorker

    “See my post #115. It partially answers your #114. I’m going to bed now.”

    It doesn’t really, but oh well. I think you and Megaman are basically arguing the following: “Damn you drug dealers for dealing drugs!”, while downplaying the role of those paying exorbitant sums for the drugs…

    Look, I don’t like the cads. While I don’t hate them with the fire of a thousand suns, like Anacaona does, I grew up with a fair number of them around, but it’s pretty clear they are a symptom, and not the cause. You yourself agree with me, in that you’d tell a fictional daughter to run for the hills (thus taking preemptive action, rather than relying on shaming the cad)…you’d be imparting what wiser women used to do in the past, passing their knowledge onto the younger set.

    But that’s not the case these days. Older women don’t give tough love, and younger women don’t want to hear it. Susan is probably one of the few willing to be more on the tough love side of things now.

  • INTJ

    @J

    I’m not sure that women set out intentionally to practice serial monogamy. I would assume that most women think that their first love will last forever and then rack up enough second and third tries until they look back and see that what they’ve particpated in has in fact become serial monogamy. Bear in mind that, for many women, that chain of relationships will include incidences of being dumped by guys or having NSA sex with the one-sided assumption that strings are attached.

    I hold people accountable for their actions, not their intentions. Just cause they’ve lied to themselves or they have the IQ of a toddler doesn’t mean I should accept their actions.

    When you have NSA sex will you explicitly let the women know that is your intention or will you expect her to correctly quess your intentions, thus becoming part of a “number” that will make her unattractive to guys who feel as you do? My guess is that guys would say straight up that it’s NSA don’t get much sex.

    Of course not. It’s unfair enough that guys have to do the approaching. If she doesn’t want NSA sex, it’s her job to ask for a relationship. But I wouldn’t give her any reason to believe I have any non-sexual interest in her.

    So you’re saying that someone who is going to insist on a certain moral standard from women maintains the right to deceive women?

    If a guy is planning to have NSA sex as INTJ says he, I think he is hypocritical in using women and then judging women who have used. If he’s straight up about it though, let the buyer beware.

    I’m not planning to have NSA sex. I’m just being honest with myself that the MMV for men my age is really low, and it’s a possibility that I might get tired of waiting so long to have sex. In which case, I’m going to have NSA sex, because I don’t want to invest emotional energy in a temporary relationship.

    And this, ENY and INTJ, is where my objection lies. If you are having NSA sex with someone who’s DTF with NSA, that’s one thing. But I think those girls are not the norm. If you are lying by omission to someone like Jane in SW’S Tom and Jane story and then have the nerve to be judgmental about the behavior of others, that’s hypocritical and most likely evidence of low character. And, if I had a daughter who was dating a guy who did that, I’d tell her to run for the hills.

    I’m not going to pursue a virgin for several months so I can P&D her if that’s what you’re thinking.

  • Emily

    >> “Perhaps this a better example of what intentional serial monogamy is than women who accumulate a number of broken relationships unintentionally. I have the impression that serial monogamy in the ‘sphere has to do with having a number of serious relationships/LTR before marriage no matter how they broke up or what the woman’s intentions were.”

    Exactly. The sphere often makes it sound like women never get dumped. In my world at least, the LTR dumper/dumpee roles tend to be divided pretty evenly between the sexes.

    And it’s not just young women who are delaying the marriage age. Even most of the religious guys that I know have zero interest in marrying before their late 20s. I’m not blaming the guys either (there are a number of social/economic/cultural factors that cause this), but I also think that a certain amount of “serial monogamy” is pretty inevitable in these circumstances.

  • pvw

    Anacaona:

    The issue hubby has is in invasion is that I have hundreds of hair products for any one here that is not black is probably puzzling but for our hair to look half way decent you need all the help in the world and then some prayers.

    My reply:

    You’re Afro-Latina?

    I burst out laughing at this one, as I think back to the visit Sunday afternoon with the stylist. Two and a half hours each time, I don’t know how she does the miracles she works with a flat iron. I can’t replicate, so I just put it into twists. She is so good, I keep her on my side with loyalty and fantastic tips!

    The hubby just shrugs, “whatever,” at the whole bathroom being taken over with all my stuff. I think he has a mere six inches of space. The same way he takes it in good humor when he thinks about the shopping, the clothes, the shoes. He takes it in stride; it is part of his enjoyment in having a stylish wife–lots of fun watching me play dress up… ; )

  • Lavazza

    Well, any kind of positive message about something temporary is, as well, implicit shaming of people not making best use of it while it lasts. The only fool proof non shaming is erasing all thoughts about temporality and cause/effect.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    Herb, why would you have a stay-at-home wife when you have no kids? Even here, Mormon women work until they get pregnant, then they stay at home after giving birth.

    She was lazy and had a huge sense of entitlement and as someone who believes marriage is a commitment I figured I had to just put up with the consequences of a bad choice.

    She did finally get a full time job, when she decided to leave and saved all she made.

  • Herb

    @Richard

    Among other things, he says wives will run shit tests until the day they die. If you get tired of the conflict, if you don’t know how to manage it, you will, as a poster here said, “beta up”. And then she’s unhappy.

    If that’s true, it’s point #1 and only one needed that marriage is a sucker’s game for men.

    Really, if I wanted to be shit tested every day of my life for the rest of my life I’d just find the crappiest job I could and take it. Then at least I could go home and escape from it.

    That said, you’ve hit the name on one reason I checked out of my marriage. I know a relationship is work, but when it’s just one massive pile of shit that you shovel than go to bed only to find a new one the next day without even a paycheck or a blowjob as a reward, why bother.

  • Herb

    @J

    So you’re saying that someone who is going to insist on a certain moral standard from women maintains the right to deceive women?

    If a guy is planning to have NSA sex as INTJ says he, I think he is hypocritical in using women and then judging women who have used. If he’s straight up about it though, let the buyer beware.

    Helpful hint from a guy: if a guy is trying to have sex the night you meet or on the first date, he’s probably not looking for a relationship.

    If he’s trying to look for sex on the second, ditto.

    If he has the third date rule, 50/50 at best.

    Still, when I’ve told women I had a six week rule more often than not I get shit for it.

    Of course, same women will complain about cads.

    Which gets back to a common refrain from me: what is giving the PUA types a lot of credibility with men is women, as a whole, say one thing and do another and they often want it both ways so a guy can’t win unless he’s a mind reader.

    The entire concept of a shit test is an abstraction of those two things. That enough women do them for nearly every man who learns about them to nod his head in response says something.

    Unlike the many PUAs I don’t think it says as much about an unalterable female nature as our culture has been overly indulgent and failed to raise girls to be adults since the 1980s at least, maybe the 70s. We still do raise boys, although not as well as we did prior to now. More importantly, the failure to do the first right is leading to more and more boys rejecting what little we are teaching them anyway.

  • Herb

    @ExNewYorker

    Yes, but so what? They bad cad is still a second order effect. By definition, he’s not going to be shamed into “better” behavior. Incentives drive behavior. The forces that used to police the cads have been dismantled by the same people complaining about the cads.

    This, a thousand times this…

    The very same sex possies who insist we can’t say anything about the sexual choices of women are at the front of the pack demanding men be whatever the woman in question wants, even if that changes from hour to hour.

    It’s one thing to demand men meet standards and women meet standards. It’s another to say anything except endorsing every choice a woman makes as valid and demand men make only choices women want.

    I realize the average HUS poster is not in that crowd, but that crowd, regardless of how big they are, has set the expectations in the culture. PUAs and other male bad behavior is simply lots of men saying “getting what I want without shame or thoughts of other people is okay too.”

    Until articles about dating are less about what men should do right this minute damnit to make women happy and more about what people need to do to make themselves attractive to their preferred gender, don’t expect it to be any better.

    Seriously, even book proporting to tell women to not be so picky, like Gottlieb’s Marry Him are about trimming your list. At no point does she address what the man might want because apparently men should just be happy you decided to settle for them.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    The problem is, there is no plausible strategy for reducing the age at marriage. Most of the writing I’ve seen about this takes a shaming approach to remind women their ovaries are turning into raisins.

    Sure there is: decide to get married and date only with that intent in mind.

    While we might not be able to change the culture with a lever we encourage individuals to do better. As people see others getting what they want over time they’ll follow suit.

    The fact that everyone, even someone like you who says “when you find someone hold on to them” has given up on actually implementing that advice speaks volumes.

  • Abbot

    “the best strategy is a small number of LTRs, though that’s easier said than done in an SMP where male interest in commitment is low.”
    .
    Precisely because women are not strategically compelling men to commit

  • Abbot

    “People remember, only about 5% of women are considered promiscuous.”
    .
    Dang, people. Of the total fertile female supply, where is this gaggle?
    .
    So all these guys who say all women this, or all women that are so misinformed. 95% of women are just fine,”
    .
    Thus, only non-promisucous women are fine and therefore wife worthy. Misinformed no more!
    .
    fine 1 (fn)
    adj. fin·er, fin·est
    1. excellent or choice in quality; very good of its kind
    .

  • Doc

    I see these morons asking how men can change – my question is why would I want to? I get women pretty much when I want them, and keep the ones that are beneficial and delete the ones that aren’t. If she benefits my life – or provides something I value, I may see her a while. But in the end, I’m not interested in giving her the power to destroy me financially.

    It is that simple. I enjoy women’s company, their bodies, and everything about them individually, or in small groups (2 or 3). But I’m not an idiot and getting into anything long-term is for idiots – at least in the US. Heck, even if I were to shack up, I have to make sure that I terminate it after a year or so due to those “Common Marriage” laws that are out there.

    If women want a relationship, they should be lobbying for the destruction of all of the things the impede relationships, laws about alimony, child support etc. Since that will happen when pigs fly – I will continue as I have, enjoying women and using them for what they can provide to me. Of course, I’m always up front about this, but women always justify that they are “special” – thanks to their fathers for telling them so over and over again. So while you can be honest, they think that they are exempt – they aren’t.

    Nothing is needed on the part of men, other than to enjoy the ride and there are a lot of women to ride.. 🙂

  • Herb

    @Susan and Abbot

    “the best strategy is a small number of LTRs, though that’s easier said than done in an SMP where male interest in commitment is low.”
    .
    Precisely because women are not strategically compelling men to commit

    I think we’re at the crux of the matter here.

    What value does a modern woman provide in exchange for commitment. Commitment is something that limits the man that the woman wants. What value does she offer up in exchange for it.

    There is more women can offer than sex, but modern women seem uninterested is being:

    1. A housewife
    2. A partner
    3. A supporter

    and they appear to give up sex pretty easily (I know the numbers Susan, hence the appear) and even if they don’t, knowing there is free sex out there makes a man less willing to pay very high prices for it here. Going back to Gottlieb and all the man up articles, I see lots of stuff about men needing to provide this or that to women and women needing to understand the perfect guy isn’t out there.

    But what do women offer men? That question never comes up. Men, as people, seem to rarely come up in discussions about getting them to commit. It’s like men are commitment machines that just aren’t made as well as they used to be made instead of people with needs and wants of their own.

  • Abbot

    ” I’m not an idiot and getting into anything long-term is for idiots – at least in the US”
    .
    and avoiding financial ruin is not the only reason. Heck, you may discover, hopefully very early, that she is so played as to not be worth it

  • Abbot

    “they appear to give up sex pretty easily”
    .
    Welcome to America, one of few places on Earth where women define their effortless “just say yes” fucking around as “a world to explore.” Had enough yet?
    .
    “Calling myself a “slut” is actually coming from a place of freedom, a relationship I needed to escape and a world I need to explore. ”
    .
    http://thegloss.com/sex-and-dating/poll-is-the-term-slut-only-ok-when-referring-to-ourselves-207/comment-page-1/#comment-403805

  • I think that sometimes the analysis of behavior of so-called “cads” can be over-determined, in that sometimes promiscuous men really are not sure what they want beyond the obvious initial goals. There are “romantic cads” who enjoy the courtship phase of the relationship and would be open to an LTR, but who simultaneously are self-aware enough to know that they: A) have personalities that really do dislike routine, compromise, and tedium; B) have social skillsets that are heavily weighted towards the earlier attraction/fun-heavy phases of the relationship and less weighted towards the management of a long-term, emotional-steeplechase environment that apparently will feature a parade of endless, rather neurotic tests and a *well-established* time-decay curve revealing ever-diminishing sex frequency/quality; and/or C) genuinely fear the incentives created by a legal contract that gives one party asymmetrical powers of resource extraction.

    Combine A, B, and C with a feminist culture that is consistently saying that any gender differences in sex drive are purely a cultural construct (feminists appear to be almost united in a shared hatred of evo psych) and you have all of the ingredients necessary for a very confusing, perhaps even schizophrenic SMP.

    I do agree that this is not necessarily a landscape that will contribute greatly to the psychological stability of many of the female participants, and IIRC there is substantive work out there revealing that female neuroticism, anxiety, reported life-satisfaction, suicidal ideation, and other aspects of poor mental health will tend to increase with higher sex-partner N counts, while the male psychological battery reveals that guys literally go in the opposite direction and report a greater sense of calm, good humor, general life-satisfaction, etc. as they become sluttier.

    • @Bastiat Blogger

      while the male psychological battery reveals that guys literally go in the opposite direction and report a greater sense of calm, good humor, general life-satisfaction, etc. as they become sluttier.

      Really? Do you have any sources? The studies I’ve seen tend to correlate high partner counts for men with an orientation to short-term mating based on personality traits such as narcissism, low agreeableness, and low conscientiousness. I suppose that a person who lacks empathy might be good-humored and satisfied with a promiscuous lifestyle, but I believe men with these traits are commonly believed to be generally unfulfilled due to their lack of emotional capacity.

  • “I think you and Megaman are basically arguing the following: ‘Damn you drug dealers for dealing drugs!'”

    Drug dealer/drug addict isn’t a good analogy. I don’t think J was referring to women addicted to hooking up. I couldn’t care less about that clique. The better analogy is parasite/host. Guys who pursue women for NSA sex they know want a relationship. It isn’t simply supply and demand at work, especially when people have to operate under conditions of imperfect information (i.e. emotions, dishonesty). No one’s “running the market” because there’s no collective bargaining going on. Every guy and girl has to look out for himself and herself, and apparently distrust everybody.

    It’s interesting… women seem to have 100% of the responsibility to declare relationship intent before sex, but guys seem to have zero responsibility to declare anything before sex.

  • Dogsquat, your stories are fine. I was talking about people here in SLC that I have met and known with accident stories. And I’m even in a state that has a lot of non-drinkers due to Mormonism.

    Anacaona, yeah I also have really easy hair. I cut it about once a year for $20 and spend $1 on shampoos and conditioners. I don’t even own a blowdryer. My morning routine takes less than 5 minutes.

    Herb, a woman can offer a lot more besides sex. First few years we were together I financially supported my husband while he went to school. I did and still do the cooking/cleaning/laundry happily. I give him long massages even when I’m pregnant. Also emotional support and not adding to stress because we never fight or argue. We’re best friends that sleep together. Best of all worlds.

  • Abbot

    “female neuroticism, anxiety, reported life-satisfaction, suicidal ideation, and other aspects of poor mental health will tend to increase with higher sex-partner N counts”
    .
    Top that with a large population of men unwilling to commit to members of the N-hopper crowd and what emerges is an army of whiners, aka sex-positive feminists, attempting to shame men into getting on what is now a sinking ship of misery.

  • Megaman, I think the responsibility does rest 100% on the woman to be vigilant sexual gatekeepers. Men’s job is to chase and express interest, and the woman’s job is to screen and filter out those whose interests do not align with hers. The problem arises when women collectively relinquish the role of sexual gatekeeper.

    Maybe this sounds extreme but I was often skeptical even after the guy declared he was in love with me. I didn’t want to be played for just sex, so I distrusted guys until they proved otherwise. If every woman behaved this way and didn’t open their legs until guys proved they weren’t cads, we wouldn’t be talking about this subject at all.

  • Herb

    @Megaman

    It’s interesting… women seem to have 100% of the responsibility to declare relationship intent before sex, but guys seem to have zero responsibility to declare anything before sex.

    Not quite…people (who tend to be women) have a strong self-interest in ascertaining the other party’s (who tend to be men) intent before giving up sex.

    If I’m looking for a car, does the seller have a responsibility to be upfront in revealing the condition of the vehicle? Yes. Do I have a responsibility to verify the condition of the vehicle? Yes. Does a responsible person have different levels of verification depending on who is selling the car? Yes.

    Women who assume a guy pushing for sex at the first meeting or date is going to be interested in a relationship are being stupid. That doesn’t excuse the guys lack of openness but if women are adults then I’ll treat them the same way I got treated when I got screwed on a used car: my friends had sympathy but also said, “so are you going to log in and check emissions status if they don’t have the paperwork”

    If we’re going to treat women whose number is 2-3 where all but one are LTR and one is a PUA as victims, I’m down with that.

    If we’re going to treat women whose number is 6-7 with one LTR and the rest PUAs as victims, count me out. Once, maaaaybe twice, isn’t their fault. After that, it’s either they’re children or willfully failing to learn or did it knowingly and didn’t care but now want to change to something less unfavorable to them.

  • Abbot

    “If every woman behaved this way and didn’t open their legs until guys proved they weren’t cads, we wouldn’t be talking about this subject at all.”
    .
    But now, in certain locations, the cad/pill culture has women reaching for terms like “exploration” and “embracing” and other desperate measures that
    .
    are. not. working.
    .
    Women are not making guys [er, the harem leaders] wait because they won’t get access to what has become very very easy to obtain gratification. Its an addiction. With a price. There are a lot more alcoholics than cocaine addicts mainly because alcohol is abundant, legal and cheap.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    Herb, a woman can offer a lot more besides sex. First few years we were together I financially supported my husband while he went to school. I did and still do the cooking/cleaning/laundry happily. I give him long massages even when I’m pregnant. Also emotional support and not adding to stress because we never fight or argue. We’re best friends that sleep together. Best of all worlds.

    So, you’re a willing tool of the patriarchy 😉

    On a more serious note, the culture at large tells us all those are bad. How often do news articles dump on men for women having to do a “second shift” of housework when they get home, ie: keeping house isn’t something a woman should offer. In the broader culture men give massages, not women (as I understand it, it’s a PUA skill too). As for emotional support instead of stress, see shit tests and the common trope (since at least the early 90s and one my ex-wife believed whole heartedly) that the man should appologize after any fight, regardless of who was wrong.

    I know women can have a lot to offer, but our broader culture, including most advice about dating or attracting men, tells women those things are beneath them, men should love them for who they are (true in one way, but ignoring what men want in another) , and tells them they entitled to a man on their schedule (see how many Kate Bollick like articles talk about the expectation men would just be there at 30 when they were ready).

    I actually don’t blame women younger than me for not knowing what men might want and having cultivated some of those things (not all, but those most congruent with who she is). We’ve taught them the opposite. The only thing we’ve taught them men want is sex, so that’s all they have to offer.

    Then, these women want a husband and can’t figure out why they can’t get men to commit. They’re offering sex, which is what men want. There is clearly nothing wrong with them, as they did everything they were told would attract men.

    Sound familiar? It should because our culture lies to young women about men need and want just as much as it does to young men. That we don’t have CA, commitment artists, yet is surprising. It’s only a matter of time.

  • J

    @ENY

    I’m not going to spend the day going back and forth with you if you are going to argue in stereotypes (labeling me a Tradcon) or ad homs (jokes about what I’m high on), but I will respond to the point below because it deals with a meme that I just don’t see as true.

    Looks at Susan’s chart…what you’re trying to do is to make the red boxes into green ones by shaming the cads. But the cads aren’t driving the market!

    The notion in the ‘sphere is that women are the gatekeepers and that all that is wrong with the current SMP lies at their feet. But is often ignored is that men have a very powerful bargaining chip in that they are the “gatekeepers” to relationships and commitment. As Emily says in post #119, “Even most of the religious guys that I know have zero interest in marrying before their late 20s. I’m not blaming the guys either (there are a number of social/economic/cultural factors that cause this), but I also think that a certain amount of “serial monogamy” is pretty inevitable in these circumstances. ” This is exactly what “drives the market.”

    What Emily describes is consonant with what the women young I know tell me. That means as a society we either have to expect that people in their sexual prime are going forego relationships until they are close to 30 or that we are going to expect all relationships to be platonic. Nice girls will simply snap their legs shut and ignore that girls are who do put out get some semblance of a relationship while they get nothing. It’s just not going to happen it, and there are men who know and take advantage of it.

    Susan’s graph (and the Karen Owens story BTW) illustrates just how much abuse the women in the upper levels of promiscuity will suffer in order to get the attention of “alphas” with whom they are dumb enough to think they can form relationships with by out-competing the other “sluts.” Nevertheless, even for those girls, the drive is to form a relationship.

    But there is a whole group on campus that is being ignored in these discussions which is the “beta” track of kids who don’t “hook up” but who do find bfs/gfs in college and even establish what I sometimes call “college marriages.” I’ve even seen a number of my friends’ kids form these monogamous relationships that continue until graduation splits them up. One partner may go on to grad school in one city, while the other finds work in another or goes home to parents. There is often a failed attempt at a long distance relation, but for a lot of girls (and guys too) this is the beginning of a chain of serial monogamy where there is a grad school SO, a first job SO, etc. until social and economic conditions finally favor settling down as a young married. While as a parent I don’t think this is ideal, I do think it’s tons better than whoring around.

    Is it better than celibacy until marriage? I just don’t think that it’s realistic for a society to expect that most people, male or female, will not attempt to fulfill, not just their sexual needs, but their need for love and companionship. Aside fom the crushing loneliness that comes from not having a relationship, there is an opportunity cost to the gamma/omega kids that don’t compete at all.

    While I would prefer to see my own sons “settled” by 25, I would find it hard to condemn them or any girls they associated with for not waiting till marriage at 30. If a person is so constituted to do that, that’s fine with me, but the folks I know how have put off relationships till after 30 AND then go on to healthy marriages are few and far between. I know two women who did so. One is Ana; the other is a former nun who was laicized at 32. She actually “picked up” her husband, a former priest, in the Vatican office building where the process of being released from vows takes place. The rest of the 30 year old virgins I’ve known, both male and female, are still virgins to the best of my knowledge. I assume that most of them were sort asexual even to begin with.

    At any rate, most people are not going to be shamed into turning back the clock to what some immagine to have been the dating scene of the 1950s (when believe or nor there was still premarital sex, illegitimacy, etc). I hope we do eventually get back to a saner SMP, but shaming and/or taking advantage of people is not what will get us there. Changing the social and economic conditions (which in my opinion are broader than the SMP) that have extended adolescence till 30 is the place to start.

    I’ve spent 45 minutes writng this, so I’ll stop here.

  • Herb

    @J

    At any rate, most people are not going to be shamed into turning back the clock to what some immagine to have been the dating scene of the 1950s (when believe or nor there was still premarital sex, illegitimacy, etc).

    While I’m well aware there was premarital sex and illegitimacy back then there was one difference: it wasn’t considered acceptable or even just an alternate lifestyle to the nuclear family.

    I have a half-sister who I didn’t know about until I was almost 30 when I had to get out my birth certificate and noticed it listed me as my mother’s second live birth (which tells how long ago I was born) and I asked.

    When my half-sister was born my mother had been teaching (she was a teacher) at a home for wayward girls because despite how much my grandparents wanted to support her they didn’t want to endorse the behavior in front of my then teen-aged aunt.

    Today, it’s okay and even celebrated.

    The notion in the ‘sphere is that women are the gatekeepers and that all that is wrong with the current SMP lies at their feet. But is often ignored is that men have a very powerful bargaining chip in that they are the “gatekeepers” to relationships and commitment.

    How many men are selling relationships without sex? How many women are selling sex without relationships? If women are willing to give up their trump without insisting men do so as well, they will get sold short. That might not be right, but it’s reality.

    If women decided even after marriage to be chaste, on the whole, would you say it wasn’t men’s fault if they still married them and wondered where the sex was?

  • Herb, our generation is already backlashing against those cultural messages because of the Internet. Women in our age group can read and talk anonymously online and find out what the real deal is. The mainstream culture at large has no significant sway over online postings.

    I remember a Craigslist response that went viral which encapsulated a lot of red pill ideas. This was pre-Roissy days, circa 2005-2006. Now this kind of thing is even easier to find. I certainly did, and I know a lot of other young women are finding it in their teens and 20s.

    It would be good if these messages got out there even more. Personally I think that young people are inherently curious and want to know what’s “counter-cultural” and “different,” and they’re going to be drawn to this stuff. The culture is shifting; it is not static. The newer generations are different, partially because of more economic instability, and partially because the truth is getting out there.

  • Abbot

    “The notion in the ‘sphere is that women are the gatekeepers and that all that is wrong with the current SMP lies at their feet. But is often ignored is that men have a very powerful bargaining chip in that they are the “gatekeepers” to relationships and commitment”
    .
    When women behaved more like gatekeepers in the West [most in the world still do] there were still problems but it was MUCH better for men as a whole.
    .
    “most people are not going to be shamed into turning back the clock to what some imagine to have been the dating scene of the 1950s”
    .
    most “women” are not going to be shamed into turning back the clock to what some imagine to have been the dating scene of the 1950s…because they are having a blast taking advantage of the clear fact that men are always willing. Therefore women have enabled the current HMP. Yes, HMP. It does not mean they are wrong or bad but it does mean that men [the majority of men] who are left out should not be shamed for deciding to avoid such women for commitment.
    .
    Is this any clearer now?

  • J

    @Herb

    Still, when I’ve told women I had a six week rule more often than not I get shit for it.

    That’s sad, but I think there are still women out there who would really appreciate you. My DH and I waited months to have sex, both of us, intentionally, because we didn’t want to complicate what we both thought was going to lead to marriage.

    Sure there is: decide to get married and date only with that intent in mind.

    LOL. That’s great advice Herb, but I have actually only witnessed it happening as the norm in one American subculture–Hasidic Jews. There is an enclave of them near me. There is zero recreational dating. A limited dating process, supervised by parents and coordinated by matchmakers, occurs only when the guys are employed and the girls are ready for marriage (sometimes after completing a bachelor’s in a field that will make them employable in a way that will benefit a large family). Everyone is a virgin at 21–even the guys–and married at 22. No cads, no sluts, lots of big, happy families. While I imagine that the Amish, some Indian immigrants and some fundy Christians like the Duggars have something similar, modern mainstream Americans have never and will never lived like that.

    It’s not a bad way to live. I admire it actually. I just don’t know how people who are not insulated from mainstream American can manage it.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    It would be good if these messages got out there even more. Personally I think that young people are inherently curious and want to know what’s “counter-cultural” and “different,” and they’re going to be drawn to this stuff. The culture is shifting; it is not static. The newer generations are different, partially because of more economic instability, and partially because the truth is getting out there.

    I hope so…I’ve been waiting a long time for rebels to be men with short hair wearing their tee shirt (which is plain) under a sports or dress shirt and shoes other than sneakers and ladies in dresses or skirts and blouses who go on dates with each other and while they do make out a bit aren’t having sex because that’s something you do inside a committed relationship where they aim at having their first child after they get married.

  • Mike C

    I’m loving the show; it’s such a cautionary tale. ****If I had a daughter, I’d make her watch****

    @J

    I’m curious….so I hope you will indulge me. You are a quite active commenter, and clearly the “sphere” interests you at least in an academic sense. I can recall when you commented actively over at Dalrock. Given all of that, I would assume you are also aware of the issues men face in the current SMP as well. IIRC, you have a son and/or sons. So I’m curious what advice/conversations you’ve had with them?

    I may be wrong on this point, but I’ve gleaned this from bits and pieces here and there but I always get the sense especially with Boomer mothers with late teen, early to mid 20s children that the daughters seem to be foremost on their minds while the sons generally seem to be afterthoughts. Almost a sort of “we really got to look after the daughters sentiment, but don’t worry about the sons…they’ll figure it out and be OK”.

    Here is one point I don’t think some of the women grok concerning serial monogamy. If a “committed relationships” is really nothing more than a temporary placeholder relationship in a sequence of relationships with ZERO chance of being permanent to semi-permanent, than for many men that prospect isnt’ going to hold much interest. Another commenter highlighted that point in not wanting “to waste emotional energy” in something that is going to be temporary anyways. I think many guys are either going to want to “lock it down” with “THE GIRL” or keep things totally casual. I don’t think the prospect of an emotional entanglement with some undefined expiration date in the future holds much appeal. In other words, if a “relationship” is really just about constructing some framework for meeting sexual desires/needs until some marriage way down the line to some different guy, then I suspect many guys would be like “why bother”.

    • @Mike C

      In other words, if a “relationship” is really just about constructing some framework for meeting sexual desires/needs until some marriage way down the line to some different guy, then I suspect many guys would be like “why bother”.

      First, I don’t think 20 yo guys think that way, nor do the girls they’re getting with. When they do fall in love, they tend to think in terms of “forever.” I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard college kids swear up and down they’re going to marry down the road. Of course, that’s a very long time – as J said, many get split up geographically after college – most likely they aren’t from the same place to begin with. Those who go on to grad school must move again. There are tremendous obstacles to early marriage in place.

      Second, most guys will spend 10 years between high school graduation and marriage. Very few are going to have the ability to pull women for casual sex during that time. Even guys here like Jason and Zach confess they got to the point where the casual routine became tedious, and they got into LTRs within a year of graduating college. I doubt anyone believes those LTRs are going to result in marriage.

      For most guys, though, being in a LTR is going to be more rewarding both emotionally and physically than hanging with the guys 100% of the time, hoping to get lucky in a bar.

  • J

    @INTJ

    Thanks for your response. I’m glad to have you clarify what you meant as opposed to having others jump in on your behalf. I’m glad to see that you plan on operating within some moral strictures. While I hate to see you or any young man be a chump, I also hate to see guys act as victimizers of the naive and inexperienced. There’s a sane middle ground that’s often hard to find.

  • Abbot

    ” if a “relationship” is really just about constructing some framework for meeting sexual desires/needs until some marriage way down the line to some different guy, then I suspect many guys would be like “why bother”.”
    .
    Isn’t this the “message” that guys are getting from all those feminist diatribes, claims of embracing / expressing, slut pride and the like? Are women now marked as guilty until proven otherwise?

  • pvw

    Herb:

    I actually don’t blame women younger than me for not knowing what men might want and having cultivated some of those things (not all, but those most congruent with who she is). We’ve taught them the opposite. The only thing we’ve taught them men want is sex, so that’s all they have to offer.

    Then, these women want a husband and can’t figure out why they can’t get men to commit. They’re offering sex, which is what men want. There is clearly nothing wrong with them, as they did everything they were told would attract men.

    J:

    But is often ignored is that men have a very powerful bargaining chip in that they are the “gatekeepers” to relationships and commitment.

    My reply:

    Interesting observations. So if men teach women that all they want is sex, how do they respond then to those young women who prove that they have more depth, that they offer more than sex?

    If they are not commitment minded, and we know men can afford to be in this SMP, they just continue looking for sex for as long as they want.

    Drawing upon conversations with younger female relatives who are still single, and even recalling years ago when I was dating, on the other hand, there are men who seem to pull the “LJBF” thing just as easily as women.

    They need not be explicit about it, and that might not even be their intention, but from a certain female perspective, that might seem to be the case when they act as though they are interested in dating but don’t escalate in a way that indicates they want something more than sex, even when there are IOIs from the woman.

    Now one can argue that this can be a signal of male betatude; if it is, the development of “inner game” might very well be necessary.

    Add in those men who treat women like pals, ie., talking about other women they are seeing or even having sex with or whom they are attracted to. Thus, it is easy for them to fall into the LJBF category, either by their own design or from the woman’s perspective.

    A thinking woman might say to herself, hmm, he talks about other women, even though he has invited me out for drinks or dinner. He is paying, so it seems like a date. But if he is interested in dating, he is not initiating a conversation it; the appearance is there, but without the substance. She might wonder, is he trying to warn me off that he is not interested in me? Does he expect me to try and compete with those other woman and hop into bed? But that is not how I am. Okay, so I’ll put him in the LJBF category, not only is that the safest, it must be what he wants….

  • Herb

    @J

    LOL. That’s great advice Herb, but I have actually only witnessed it happening as the norm in one American subculture–Hasidic Jews.

    Years ago (and we’re talking a decade plus) I read this: http://www.torah.org/features/wperspective/cosmogirl.html

    It inspired me enough that I have notes for a novel about a gentile clarinet player who is in a Klezmer band (if you’re a clarinetist and serious as a youth you’ll develop a taste for Klezmer, as it’s the one place you’re the lead instrument) who meets a Orthodox woman and begins to convert to marry her (and never touches her in the mean time). Riffing off an even older Eight is Enough Valentines Day episode he becomes closer to God in the process but realizes his long nominal Christianity is what is becoming real instead of his Jewish goal. In the end he gives up the girl (but not the Klezmer band, priorities after all 😉 ) for God.

    Now if I just had the discipline to write it. Maybe it could be the next 50 Shades of Grey on the Kindle 🙂

  • Tom

    No Ted, fuck you. My comments were not aimed at you or anyone elsehere. I have seen several of my buddies marry in hopes of getting their wife to treat them like a child. Ive witnessed them sitting in their lazy boy and telling the wife to get up and make them a sandwich, or get them a beer. Total bullshit and those guys ARE devorced.
    As for insults, I could insult you, but I wont. Fuck you and the rest of the morons here who think I might be a woman.
    Now back to your original programming…lol

  • J

    @Mike C

    Given all of that, I would assume you are also aware of the issues men face in the current SMP as well. IIRC, you have a son and/or sons. So I’m curious what advice/conversations you’ve had with them?

    Two sons, no daughters. Sexual conversations with me are somewhat hard to have as they are more embarrassed with me than with their dad. The basic shape of all our advice though is “Don’t be prick; don’t be a chump.” In a more general sense, I’d like to think we’ve raise our boys with a sense of honesty, integrity and morality, as well as with some self-esteem that will enable them to avoid the pitfalls of the current SMP and seek out quality women, but who knows. So far, they have selected themselves into some pretty decent peers groups, so I feel confident. My goal has been to raise good, but not naive, kids. You do your best with kids and then hope for the best when you turn them loose on the world. We’ll see what happens, and be there for them if they screw up.

    I may be wrong on this point, but I’ve gleaned this from bits and pieces here and there but I always get the sense especially with Boomer mothers with late teen, early to mid 20s children that the daughters seem to be foremost on their minds while the sons generally seem to be afterthoughts.

    I think it’s more that mothers were once girls and understand the problems girls face. Dealing with boys and their feelings has been an education for me.

    Almost a sort of “we really got to look after the daughters sentiment, but don’t worry about the sons…they’ll figure it out and be OK”.

    Perhaps because boys face fewer physical perils. If I had a daughter, I’d worry about pregnancy, rape, etc. With boys, I worry about “where they put their dicks” and what sorts of long-lasting consequences can arise from that. On a more humorous note, I recently made the boys watch “Teen Mom” with me. When it was over, I asked, “What did we learn from this?” They answered, because it’s almost a family joke, “Be careful where you put your dick.”

    Here is one point I don’t think some of the women grok concerning serial monogamy. …then I suspect many guys would be like “why bother”.

    I understand what you are saying, but I do see young men involved in serial monogamy. There are young men who want a steady girl as opposed to being constantly on the chase. My own DH had a pattern, before we met, of relationships that lasted between 1-5 years and few ONS. In most cases, he thought those relationships were evolving towards more, though the first lasted from junior year of high school until junior year of college and in retrospect was unlikely to lead to marriage. I would suspect that most of the woman involved expected marriage.

  • pvw, why doesn’t the girl in that scenario just ask? That’s what I did. A few time I asked, the guy was interested in me romantically. A few times, no such interest. Open and honest communication is not rocket science. I didn’t get to a single relationship without it.

    I always told every single guy I talked to, almost word for word: “I am looking for love. I don’t have sex without love.” It never fazed the ones who were also looking for love. Several times I heard from guys, “You’re possibly even more of a romantic than me.” I thought that was a nice compliment.

    Now why did these relationships end? Sometimes people are just not very compatible, and a lifelong marriage would not be good. I could be the exact same me right now and still not be able to get along with an INTJ or ESTP guy. I’m an INFJ, and even though I can “get along” with most types, I prefer other NFs in more intimate interactions.

  • Tom

    Ozy
    Of course relationships break up for lots of reasons. Abuse, neglect, apthy, weight gain, cheating, bad sex, money problems, lack of communication etc. The list just goes on and on. Women seem to be the ones who file for divorce the most. Most of the divorces I have witnessed, where I know both parties involved, it was normally my buddy who was at fault, for some of the reasons I just listed.
    Sure women are at fault a lot of the time also. However most men do not know how to treat women, especially in a relationship. They do the things that cause resentment in women, normally without even knowing they are doing so.

    Herb. Thanks of not accusing me of riding side saddle…lmao.

  • Tom

    @ Abbott
    Folks, try to remember why this person posts. There is an agenda there and its nothing personal, really
    _______
    Right back at cha macho man

  • J

    Nice link and nice idea for a novel. I’d read it; you should write it.

    My DH BTW has been the only gentile member of a Klezmer band (clarinet and violin) and the only non-Irish member of a Pogues cover band (violin and concertina).

  • J

    OK guys and gals, I know there are comments I’ve not responded to, but I’ve got to accomplish more today than sitting at the computer screen. My apologies to anyone I’ve ignored.

  • Herb

    @Tom
    Herb. Thanks of not accusing me of riding side saddle…lmao.

    I assume people aren’t faking gender in most environments on the internet (chat environments I assume women looking to chat dirty are men, however).

    The larger point is the main cultural meme is women seek divorce because men cheat or are children. The idea that a man is wronged in a divorce that doesn’t involve a Kardashian is alien to the culture.

    So when you decide to bring that meme here you’re going to get pushback.

    Hell, our marriage councilor openly took my side…how often does that happen (I’d love to go back and ask what she thought of Game).

  • Herb

    @pvw

    Interesting observations. So if men teach women that all they want is sex, how do they respond then to those young women who prove that they have more depth, that they offer more than sex?

    I was thinking less of men in the SMP and more the broad cultural training prior to a woman even entering the SMP. She enters the SMP with that assumption in place. Women my age even entered having learned a one night stand after meeting a day or two earlier lead to Happily Ever After, especially if she watched The Love Boat :).

    Do men in the SMP reinforce that? Yes, but at that point I think we’re looking at more complex interactions and feedback. Even men who aren’t, in particular, just about sex are bound to learn that the most common thing women provide is sex in our current culture both in positive (friends are getting laid) and negative (shit tests, flake outs) ways.

    I will say this in defense of women on flake outs, it’s just a dating specific version of a broader cultural phenomena which Miss Manners covered years ago. She argued people have become more likely to not honor commitments resulting in fewer people willing to host events. Flaking out is the dating version. The response from the hosts in dating is left as an exercise from the reader.

  • Mike C, I don’t think most people approach relationships that way. Most people aren’t thinking about it as a temporary arrangement. Young people fall in love, and that compels them to want to be together. I’ve also seen failed relationships where only one party (whether male or female) was in love, which dooms it.

    So the reason why young people would “bother” is because it’s not about the physical stuff alone. Young love does have a lot of opportunities for things going wrong, kids being overly dramatic, impulsive, immature, and not very self-aware. Plus they’re just starting to discover themselves and develop their identities. Thus these relationships tend not to last forever.

    There are people who get married to their high school or college sweethearts. I think that is the cultural romantic narrative many young people look to, and there is definitely an element of idealism associated with these early relationships. These “lost loves” can even disrupt or wreck marriages and families later as people get re-acquainted with someone from their past, so they’re not as “transient” as one might think.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sticky-bonds/201110/my-research-12-facts-about-lost-love-reunions

  • Tom

    Herb, I agree with what you say. No matter whos fault, we are the ones who get screwed, in most cases.
    Until I came here I never even thought about a prenup. My daughter is grown, so I dont have to worry about any future child support. Allimony and my losing a portion of my assets could be a possibility, however.
    Most of my friends, in Ohio, went the way of disolution, where everything is agreed upon when they split. But I am guessing if certian women feel they have something to gain, they would not allow that route.
    I may get married this summer, lots of issues to discuss, one being a prenup. One never goes into a relationship or marriage thinking it may disolve, but in these times………….

  • Ian

    @Susan

    While most women never come close to double digits, I think that attractive women who are approached a lot and/or sexually adventurous women are likely to get there. So it is a problem for men who want either for marriage.

    From a female POV, the best strategy is a small number of LTRs, though that’s easier said than done in an SMP where male interest in commitment is low.

    I’d argue that the optimal female strategy is to negotiate the Biggest Deal while their leverage was highest > while beauty is highest and N is lowest > two trends that happily coincide at a particular period in life…six years before the average American age of marriage, at this moment in history.

    I used to argue with my young male friends, though I’m sure it’s similar for females, who said they didn’t want to marry. Ask them if they want to marry, they say no. I’d ask them if they’d marry a particular absurdly high-value woman, whatever version of Kate Upton, they’d say yes.

    The rub is that, as a woman ages and N’s, she migrates further from Upton. Men’s distaste for marriage, is at least in part a distaste for marriage with current partners’ SMV; ages, weights, habits, and N’s.

    If a “committed relationships” is really nothing more than a temporary placeholder relationship in a sequence of relationships with ZERO chance of being permanent to semi-permanent, than for many men that prospect isnt’ going to hold much interest. Another commenter highlighted that point in not wanting “to waste emotional energy” in something that is going to be temporary anyways. I think many guys are either going to want to “lock it down” with “THE GIRL” or keep things totally casual.

    This. I’m an outlier, but I’ve dumped several marry-someday partners for that perspective. To kill the dead horse, it’s telling me that I’m not her Upton, and I’m wasting my investment. Dating, to me, is screening for marriage, and I don’t offer monogamy otherwise.

    • @Ian

      while beauty is highest and N is lowest > two trends that happily coincide at a particular period in life…six years before the average American age of marriage, at this moment in history.

      That’s 22 for a woman. From cap and gown to bridal gown. That is just not going to happen. I wouldn’t even want it for my daughter. You have every right to aim for that, of course, but I believe the pool of women seeking that timeline will be small.

      For one thing, hookup culture is pervasive in college, and I’d say no more than 2-5% of students get together with an eye toward marrying upon graduation. Most women won’t even go on a date until after they’ve graduated. Assume it may take a while to find their future spouse, and they’re in their mid-20s, at least, which I do think is a good time to get married. To each his own, but that average age isn’t coming down any time soon.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    Mike C, I don’t think most people approach relationships that way. Most people aren’t thinking about it as a temporary arrangement.

    I don’t know…I had a revelation the other day that one thing that is disappointing with my gf is the sense that there is not even the idea that we’re working towards a permanent relationship. I’m not saying she’s planning to escape or dump me or anything but there is, well just a sense things are what they are and one day might not be.

    Commitment, the idea that we might decide to be together for the rest of our lives (for me, probably 25 years tops as it is) is not anywhere and seems almost alien. This is pretty much what I’ve encountered since I got divorced with one exception. That was a woman who wasn’t interested in marriage and was upfront about it. Driving back from Christmas Eve at her parents she said, “I never really thought seriously about marriage before you”.

    Eight days later, on New Years Day, I was out the door.

    In fact, my believe women want commitment seems as much a leap of faith anymore as empirical reality. If most women just want to “fun date” in their 20s without offering commitment I suspect men will have one of two responses: “not interested” or “okay, so women just want sex too”. The problem is when the magic 30 happens and “we’ve arrived at the top of the staircase, finally ready to start our lives” the men have learned what women want and changing that 180 degrees gets hard. The men who wanted it at 25 found a woman who did. The men who did and didn’t were “you know, the ones you don’t want to go out with.”

    If women want husbands they need to look for husbands. Right now, we’re raising more MGTOW and cads than husbands. The smart girls land them early.

  • ozymandias

    Anacaona: Um, no, I have equal concerns re: consent and emotional health about forty-year-old women sleeping with fourteen-year-olds. Fourteen-year-olds are, in general, not capable of having emotionally healthy relationships with adults, no matter what they think about it at the time; their brains aren’t developed yet, the adult always has greater power, and those can and almost always do form deeply unhealthy relationships. They are not allowed to make their own decisions about this, for much the same reason that they’re not allowed to make their own decisions about going to school, drinking, etc.

    ExNewYorker: I think that it’s unethical to lie about your intentions either way. If you want a relationship, it is highly unethical and a bad idea to claim you only want casual sex; if you want casual sex, it is highly unethical and a bad idea to claim you only want a relationship. I remain vaguely puzzled that there are people who don’t talk about this before they fuck, but assume it is somewhat related to the “having sex while drunk” thing.

    Mike C: Um, I am fairly certain that most people find romantic love enjoyable and hence would like to have it even if they aren’t going to be together forever. Not to mention companionship, emotional support, and even just plain friendship. There’s lots of reasons why someone might want a relationship between lifelong commitment and a fuckbuddy.

    Tom: You got a study or something to back up “divorce is always men’s fault”? That’s an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.

  • You’re Afro-Latina?
    I keep forgetting that is not obvious in pics but yes I’m 70% black.

    I burst out laughing at this one, as I think back to the visit Sunday afternoon with the stylist. Two and a half hours each time, I don’t know how she does the miracles she works with a flat iron. I can’t replicate, so I just put it into twists. She is so good, I keep her on my side with loyalty and fantastic tips!

    Pfft I spent four hours at the beauty parlor. I’m not kidding about the prayers and then the hair looks nice for 10 days and less. Nightmare hair.

    The hubby just shrugs, “whatever,” at the whole bathroom being taken over with all my stuff. I think he has a mere six inches of space. The same way he takes it in good humor when he thinks about the shopping, the clothes, the shoes. He takes it in stride; it is part of his enjoyment in having a stylish wife–lots of fun watching me play dress up… ; )

    I actually don’t shop for anything unless I broke whatever I have or like in pregnancy I can’t fit in it no matter how hard I try, cheap bitch, so hair products and plastic bags are his only concern

    Anacaona, yeah I also have really easy hair. I cut it about once a year for $20 and spend $1 on shampoos and conditioners. I don’t even own a blowdryer. My morning routine takes less than 5 minutes.

    If you weren’t the mother of my unborn child’s spouse I will kill you for this, lucky girl :p

    If every woman behaved this way and didn’t open their legs until guys proved they weren’t cads, we wouldn’t be talking about this subject at all.

    ITA. When waiting a few dates to find out a “guy’s intentions” became so hard? Is not like you can read men’s mind or bend them to your will….

    @J
    Actually all my closest friends (a dozen that I’m sure off double that that I heard of but have no proof) were virgins till they were in the preparing the wedding process. In fact any Dominican woman that is on college and doesn’t have a child has almost a 90% chance of being a virgin still and we are not shy in bed or hate sex trust me on that ;). I think that hard part is not biological but cultural sex positive people had spent decades making virginity and abstinence look like some symptom of something bad going on in a person (too religious, s so of course is harder for people to keep it, everyone wants to be normal and be “good at sex” adding the “dating is for fun, commitment is for old people” and you find a lot of issues with people waiting, YMMV.

  • They are not allowed to make their own decisions about this, for much the same reason that they’re not allowed to make their own decisions about going to school, drinking, etc.

    ??? but you say that if she wanted to have sex with other 14 years old it would okay? How that works? How can you filter one attraction trigger? If all a person needs to get laid is being horny? Also the age of consent in Europe and many other countries is 13 so…

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    Not sure if this was intentional. How appropriate of you to post this heading into one of the biggest, most crunktastic drinking and partying weekends of the season. Happy Cinco, people!

    @Mike C
    Your comment about serial monogamy was pretty dead on. The way I see it, the way some women go about serial monogamy, it’s the female way to get laid regularly before you get married without being called out. And you know what, I’m not mad at ’em one bit. Everyone has needs, and nobody wants to be alone just because, especially women. I think they need companionship more than men do on some level.

    • @BroHamlet

      Not sure if this was intentional. How appropriate of you to post this heading into one of the biggest, most crunktastic drinking and partying weekends of the season. Happy Cinco, people!

      Haha, it’s pure coincidence. I think my recent consulting work has me thinking in Power Point slides again – goes with the territory.

      I lived at the beach in LA during my early 20s – the best place north of the Rio Grande for celebrating Cinco de Mayo. Maybe even better, what with the frozen margaritas and all.

  • Herb

    @ozymandias

    Um, I am fairly certain that most people find romantic love enjoyable and hence would like to have it even if they aren’t going to be together forever.

    Until you’ve broken up from romantic love being temporary a few times. The reward/cost cycle starts to look unfriendly after a while.

    I think at least a few of the poly people I know are poly in reaction to that: less investment or hope therefore less hurt. I know my openness to dating poly is related to giving up on permanent love.

    @Ana

    ITA. When waiting a few dates to find out a “guy’s intentions” became so hard? Is not like you can read men’s mind or bend them to your will….

    Haven’t you learned anything from feminism? Women are fully formed people just like men capable of making choices and controlling themselves so they can do…

    Oh, wait, you mean women post feminine are less able to say ‘no’ to sex? Interesting.

  • Ted D

    Tom – I know the comment wasn’t directed AT me, but you can’t deny that your statement was a blatant attempt to put blame at men’s feet. Perhaps the “lazy boy” is a construct of younger generations than mine, but I know very few men that are a waste of life and flesh. Perhaps I simply ignore them if they exist around me.

    If you know lots of lazy men, I’d say it is selection bias, but maybe I’m the one biased. I’ll readily admit that I don’t like “people”, so I probably blow off lazy/unmotivated people WAY before I realize they are lazy and unmotivated.

    Or perhaps you are trying to describe a “mama’s boy”? I’ve only known one of those my entire life, and it was only because he was family that I tolerated him at all. I wouldn’t say he was lazy though, he simply believed that his wife’s job was to serve him. Shit, now that I think on it, in many ways he appeared to be pretty damned alpha, but I just assumed it was because he was self-centered and selfish.

    Now regarding men not knowing how to treat women, I can’t argue with that. But, I would like to point out that traditionally when such a comment is made, it is usually implied that by “how to treat women” what is really meant is the man in question is an asshole, mean, abusive, etc. In your own statement you described a man that wasn’t meeting his mates needs, which is the same kind of statement. In fact, many men simply don’t know how to effectively interact with the women in their lives. They may treat them like a princess, but that is exactly NOT what they should be doing. I never treated my ex-wife badly, but if I would have we might still be married.

    And who’s fault is that? I learned how to interact with women from my mother, grandmother, and other female family. I listened to what they said and believed it to be true, even as I got older and saw with my own eyes that their instructions didn’t make sense. I was told repeatedly that the girls who like “bad boys” are broken, or too young to know “what they really want”, and encouraged to continue being “nice” and “myself”. My grandfather was the only male role model I consistently had growing up, and I was told often about how inconsiderate, uncaring, and mean he was. What I know now is: he was just being a man. What I used to think was a lack of caring on his part was dead wrong. What I was told was him being mean was simply him setting boundaries and expecting them to be kept. But I was told repeatedly to ALWAYS consider what my wife wants, ALWAYS listen to what she says, and ALWAYS do my best to make her happy. All. Completely. Wrong.

    So Tom, how about you cut your brothers a little slack. If you see lazy assed men around you, poke them into action. Why even associate with lazy people?

  • Herb, your girlfriend does not sound like she is in love with you. You don’t sound happy with the arrangement, but you stay with it anyway. That is entirely your right to do so, but that doesn’t mean relationships are all worthless. There are lots of crappy people out there. Ya don’t have to be in their lives.

    Anacaona, I don’t think 13 year old girls know what is good for them. I was that age and a good memory. Yeah I had crushes on way older men, but the non-predatory types never made a move on me. I would think the same way about a 13 year old boy and a much older woman. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it ethical, like Congress and insider trading lol.

  • Susan, I know quite a number of women who got married in their late teens or early 20s here in Utah. The majority of them got divorced and are now remarried a different man. So early first marriages do still happen. They just aren’t very stable.

    I don’t think I would advise a woman to get married younger than 24 unless she was exceptionally mature, self-aware and from a good background, and had chosen an excellent man who is also exceptionally mature, self-aware and from a good background.

    But I bet if you ask around, many 20-something will think he or she is exceptionally mature. I think I am, too! 😛

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    With regard to male “sluttiness” vs happiness:

    Anecdotally, getting laid regularly meets a basic need that men have, so if you’re not getting it and you start to get it regularly, you’ll be happier by comparison. But like all things, I’m sure a pathological tendency to promiscuity ala Tucker Max might indicate some unresolved issues and unhappiness.

    • @BroHamlet

      Anecdotally, getting laid regularly meets a basic need that men have, so if you’re not getting it and you start to get it regularly, you’ll be happier by comparison.

      Well, that can be accomplished in a relationship, though it obviously requires forfeiting sexual variety. The question is, how many men have the pull of a Tucker Max?

  • Jason773

    Second, most guys will spend 10 years between high school graduation and marriage. Very few are going to have the ability to pull women for casual sex during that time. Even guys here like Jason and Zach confess they got to the point where the casual routine became tedious, and they got into LTRs within a year of graduating college. I doubt anyone believes those LTRs are going to result in marriage.

    This is all true, and while I didn’t think ‘im in a relationship now so I’m probably gonna marry this girl’, for me to get into a relationship at this point in my life there has to be at least SOME potential that the girl is ‘the one’. If I 100% knew that I was going to end things in the future with some girl, for whatever reason, I wouldn’t get into an exclusive relationship because casual sex and the ability to date multiple girls is too available to me right now.

    For most guys, though, being in a LTR is going to be more rewarding both emotionally and physically than hanging with the guys 100% of the time, hoping to get lucky in a bar.

    The way you put this is definitely true, but there is a wide spectrum of options between those two ends.

    • @Jason

      If I 100% knew that I was going to end things in the future with some girl, for whatever reason, I wouldn’t get into an exclusive relationship because casual sex and the ability to date multiple girls is too available to me right now.

      That makes sense, but let’s face it, you’re at the top of the food chain. A whole lot of 23 yo guys have low partner counts, and/or little relationship experience, so they may be happy to date someone exclusively just to get that experience. With 24% of college seniors reporting that they’re virgins, getting a girlfriend or boyfriend is going to seem like winning the lottery to many people, both male and female.

      Obviously, the degree to which you have options (supply) is going to affect your level of demand.

  • ozymandias

    Ana: Well, yes, because the fourteen-year-olds are both fairly stupid and neither has power over the other, so they’re less likely to take advantage of each other, pressure each other into something they don’t want to do, etc. (Although it can happen.) Practically, while I have known some people who had sex at twelve or thirteen and are none the worse for it, I think everyone should be encouraged to wait until they are ready to have sex, which for many people is going to be sixteen-eighteen and for a few as late as their twenties or thirties. Or never!

    Herb: I’ve broken up a few times, yeah. It happens and it hurts, but for many (most?) people romantic love is still awesome, even with a built-in time limit.

    Erm, as a poly person with a whole bunch of poly friends, I’m not sure how poly means you have less investment or hope. I am fairly certain that my friend would be just as depressed as a monogamous person about his girlfriend of more than a decade dumping him, even though he has a couple other girlfriends.

    Ian: Marrying at 22 is a terrible idea; HUS has just had some posts about how the divorce risk goes down substantially after 23. I mean, if you want to get married and then get divorced, that’s cool (as long as you told your partners your plans!) but somehow I do not think that is what you were aiming for.

  • FatAmericanSlut

    For the record, I’ve never considered marriage to be a viable option for me or my peers. From a very young age (elementary school) I’ve wondered why any man would voluntarily provide financial support to an unemployed woman when that woman was perfectly capable of pulling her own weight. I KNEW then that one day, the guys would get wise to that scam and refuse to play. (and here we are at HUS. Looks like I was right.) On the other hand, I saw how hard my mom struggled to keep our heads above water and decided that single motherhood wasn’t for me either, socially acceptable or not.

    I’ve always had a pretty nihilistic approach to sex and relationships. If marriage is unlikely to happen, if not off the table completely because I’m paying for the sins of feminism, then I might as well take whatever I can get. Between my complete lack of trust in men (that they won’t abandon me, leaving me penniless with toddlers to care for like what happened to my mother) and the cynicism prevalent in the men of my generation, I’m on the express train to spinsterville. The way I see it, I might as well get mine while I’m still young enough to get it. After all, I have needs too. And so, after thoughtful consideration: I choose Hookup.

    Go ahead, call me a slut. Just know that it was not a drunken accident that I became one.

    • @FatAmericanSlut

      Why aren’t you using your usual handle?

      In terms of your comment, it sounds reasonable. You’ve thought it over, you’ve calculated the risks and benefits, and you’ve selected the option that you predict has the highest payout. I can’t argue with that. As long as you don’t think you’ll have a major change of heart and want to qualify yourself to some man, then you can act with impunity, answering only to yourself. I’m sure there are plenty of women in their 30s who might look back and say, “I might as well have been a slut! What a waste of my youth!”

  • FAS, I am sorry that you went through that experience and feel like you cannot trust men. I was also raised by a single mother in poverty, and I had a difficult time believing a guy was not going to abandon me like my father did.

    But if you never look for the good, then the bad has won. There are still tons of good people out there. If you close your heart, then it is unlikely that you will find love and happiness. Guard your heart carefully and don’t give it to the bad apples. Not everybody is cynical or untrustworthy. But do screen and filter.

    Hooking up has a much higher probability of exposing you to the very same types of men who hurt you and your family in the past, and perhaps that is why you are drawn to the idea of it. Maybe you think it could help you overcome that somehow? To sleep with men who care nothing about you? Replicate that horrible dynamic with your absent father? Don’t fall into that trap, for your own sake. You would do only damage to yourself, and be nothing but an instrument of pump and dump for some guys.

    You need to deal with the past and come to terms with it. It took me a long time, too. But it is possible to heal, and you would be doing yourself a service to act in ways that are healthy, emotionally and physically nourishing. You don’t have to punish yourself or be “slutty” in order to regain self-esteem. You should treat yourself well and love yourself. Then, from a place of strength, you can slowly open your heart and learn to trust and love another.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    That’s 22 for a woman. From cap and gown to bridal gown. That is just not going to happen. I wouldn’t even want it for my daughter. You have every right to aim for that, of course, but I believe the pool of women seeking that timeline will be small.

    Then women need to lower their standards because after that they’re still competing with women that age for men the age those women who wait are.

    The longer women put off marriage the more they are saying “I’ll settle for less”. Another case of might not be fair but is reality.

    @Hope

    Herb, your girlfriend does not sound like she is in love with you. You don’t sound happy with the arrangement, but you stay with it anyway. That is entirely your right to do so, but that doesn’t mean relationships are all worthless. There are lots of crappy people out there. Ya don’t have to be in their lives.

    She’s not a crappy person and I do think she cares about me. However, she’s at a point in life where I don’t think she believes in “for the rest of our lives” and some days I don’t either. I also like her quite a bit. I’d like permanent monogamy, but I’d also like a pony.

    Also, I have to choose from what’s on tap. Yes, not having any relationship is one option but I do think this is better (and I’ve done none plenty). There is always the 47 year old on OKCupid who is chasing me (although either she’s butt ugly or lying about her age by a decade and yes that matters to me…call me shallow and unable to see inner beauty or claiming to be more attractive than I am, whatever).

    Add in, women actually raise their standards and degree of shit testing as they age. Most single women over 40 have huge chips about men unable to handle challenging women and seem to want to prove no man can handle them (it’s not that I can’t handle you…after 90+ days with 100+ men in well under 24,000 sq foot building with no windows or fresh air you aren’t hard to handle, you’re just not worth handling) and you have to ask, “why bother”.

    Right now once or twice a week a get laid, don’t sleep alone, and have someone who talks to me. She messages me during the weeks and worries about me.

    I guess wanting that just for me and forever is being selfish anymore.

    @ozy

    I am fairly certain that my friend would be just as depressed as a monogamous person about his girlfriend of more than a decade dumping him, even though he has a couple other girlfriends.

    Serious question because I need to compare our baselines, how old are you and your friends?

  • Herb, even if you don’t believe in permanent monogamy, you’re in effect one-sidedly monogamous with a person who is not giving you monogamy. That makes you not very different from those girls who are in some guy’s “harem” with soft polygamy. No wonder you’re not happy. I’m sure the guys with harems also “care” about their girls and check in with them, as long as the girls behave and doesn’t give them too much trouble.

    I guess you think you’re asking for a pony when you’re really asking for a normal used car like most other people have?

  • Abbot

    Here is some more hookup anatomy –
    .
    “female sexuality is policed in a way male sexuality isn’t, sending the signal that women’s very bodies are the property of eventual spouses, which has all sorts of implications for who is more important in the marriage.”
    .
    –Amanda Marcotte
    .
    Talk about a WOW! [not to be confused with a WOE]
    .
    Of course its not complete. Who is doing this policing? How is it being policed? Nevertheless, a feminist has stated that female sexual behavior while single correlates in some fashion with marriage. But she is dead wrong about this importance thing. Its not about that. Its about being selected as a wife in the first place.

  • Abbot

    “My comments were not aimed at you or anyone elsehere.”
    .
    How refreshing

  • ozymandias

    Herb: I’m twenty. My poly friends range from nineteen to mid-thirties.

    I… don’t think it’s selfish to break up with someone if you’re in a relationship that’s making you unhappy. If you want a monogamous forever relationship, then you should look for that, instead of settling for a poly relationship that makes you unhappy because it’s “all you can get.”

  • INTJ

    @ J

    @INTJ
    Thanks for your response. I’m glad to have you clarify what you meant as opposed to having others jump in on your behalf. I’m glad to see that you plan on operating within some moral strictures. While I hate to see you or any young man be a chump, I also hate to see guys act as victimizers of the naive and inexperienced. There’s a sane middle ground that’s often hard to find.

    Absolutely. I demand respect, but I don’t disrespect others either.

    @Hope

    pvw, why doesn’t the girl in that scenario just ask? That’s what I did. A few time I asked, the guy was interested in me romantically. A few times, no such interest. Open and honest communication is not rocket science. I didn’t get to a single relationship without it.
    I always told every single guy I talked to, almost word for word: “I am looking for love. I don’t have sex without love.” It never fazed the ones who were also looking for love. Several times I heard from guys, “You’re possibly even more of a romantic than me.” I thought that was a nice compliment.

    Exactly. A lot of girls expect us guys to do all the work of approaching them and then making sure we don’t hurt them, while the girls just sit back and throw shit tests at us, without ever communicating with us about what they want out of the relationship.

    If girls took an equal role in communicating as part of the relationship, things would be so much easier for everyone.

    Regarding the fact that people tend to fall in love and intend a permanent relationship, but failing for various reasons, think this is due to unrealistic expectations and poor planning. As an example for planning, right now I’m studying out of state and I intend to go back to the Bay Area for work once I graduate. So I’m not actively looking for a relationship with a local girl. I am however observing the sexual dynamics and (mostly nonexistent) dating dynamics around me so that I know what sort of approach to take later. People also have unrealistic expectations, and because of these they aren’t willing to compromise or make a real effort to keep the relationship going when they face some problem. Nothing is perfect, but people don’t realize that.

  • Herb

    @ozy

    I’m twenty. My poly friends range from nineteen to mid-thirties.

    At 45 I’m sure that’s a huge part of the differences in our experiences.

    Although, I wasn’t too impressed with most “poly” people I knew in my early and mid 30s in the Boston goth scene. For most it seemed an excuse for sexual flings and drama more than multiple deep and meaningful relationships.

    For the mind of me I don’t get the guy I know who is poly with a wife and six girlfriends. Why be married then (no, he doesn’t see all of them each week and at least three of them are married)? Why be married to him (yes, she has other lovers too). I probably also just see them as greedy 🙂

    In the end, if you know things aren’t going to last and odds are you’ll be cheated on you might as well be upfront and honest about it instead of playing let’s pretend.

    If I want to play let’s pretend I’ll play D&D.

    @Hope

    I guess you think you’re asking for a pony when you’re really asking for a normal used car like most other people have?

    </