The Anatomy of a Hookup

May 1, 2012 536 Comments

 

 It’s a risky business.

 

 

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  • OhioStater

    How do you think men in general can improve themselves? In the absence of forced monogamy (victorian era mores), the only way hook up culture will end is if the difference between great guys and average guys is small.

  • Abbot

    “How do you think men in general can improve themselves?”
    .
    By continuing to vocalize their intent on not marrying female members of the hookup harem.

  • Jim

    Hookups are happening because women are giving their sex away first then trying to get a relationship second. I know a 33 year old guy who can pluck women all night long, get sex from them that same night and then a week or two later are trying to go into dating mode with him. And of course he deletes them out of his life. This guy doesn’t flash money, isn’t a bad boy, is not tatted up or does anything that is talked about in the PUA sense. He just talks to them but most important will cut them off and pursue other women. That’s how you do it and in a setting such as a bar, numbers plus the willingness to walk away works. He doesn’t always get the hookup but his thing is that he doesn’t care what happens. Neither should any other man.

    Women are starving for relationships and I don’t care what they say here or anywhere. Women have no power in the real world except from men who willingly give it to them. And those that do end up being their tampons.

  • Herb

    @OhioStarter

    How do you think men in general can improve themselves? In the absence of forced monogamy (victorian era mores), the only way hook up culture will end is if the difference between great guys and average guys is small.

    Men can improve themselves in many ways: learning a new skill (languages, art, welding, the sky is the limit), working out, taking up challenging goals.

    If what you’re asking is how can we motivate men to improve themselves, which I think is your real question, we can reward success and penalize failure.

    In a very high level definition becoming a PUA is self-improvement: learning new skills both interpersonal (reading people, for example) and personal (how to handle rejection). It is also rewarded, with sex and female attention.

    If you’d like more socially beneficial ways of improvement to outweight PUA stuff, well get women to reward those with sex and female attention.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com The Private Man

    “Women are starving for relationships and I don’t care what they say here or anywhere.”

    This.

    What so few men know is that they are the gatekeepers to commitment. What most women know is that they are the gatekeepers to sexuality.

    The men who do know this – along with the women who already know this – are increasingly using their respective “advantages” in the Dating 2.0 (Combat Dating) scenario. This is where getting to know each other is less important than exercising that advantage in order to achieve one’s personal needs too often at the expense of the other person. For example: the girl uses the guy for emotional validation without providing physical intimacy. The guy uses the girl for sex without promises of exclusivity.

    The sub-theme in Dating 2.0 is the queasy process of a woman determining a man’s social proof and a man determining if the woman will put out quickly. It’s an ugly agenda for both.

  • Kennifer

    ” I know a 33 year old guy who can pluck women all night long”

    An eyebrow fetish?

    “Women have no power in the real world except from men who willingly give it to them. And those that do end up being their tampons.”

    Wow. Just wow.

  • Emily

    >> “Men can improve themselves in many ways: learning a new skill (languages, art, welding, the sky is the limit), working out, taking up challenging goals.”

    I think the self-improvement route is a good idea for women as well. Even if I knew that I was going to stay single, I think I’d still want to go through life being the most interesting/attractive/positive person that I can possibly be.

  • Abbot

    “Women have no power in the real world except from men who willingly give it to them. And those that do end up being their tampons.”
    .
    “Wow. Just wow.”
    .
    Yeah, like having a bucket of ice water dumped on your head. Wake up!

  • meistergedanken

    “Kennifer” wrote:

    ““Women have no power in the real world except from men who willingly give it to them. And those that do end up being their tampons.”

    Wow. Just wow.”

    You sure say “wow” a lot. You must walk through life continually astounded. Sorry your illusions have been momentarily pierced.

    Forget it, Abbot; this type is going to resist the truth staring at them in the face even if they have to jam an ice pick into their eyeballs to continue not seeing it.

  • Anon

    I don’t think there has ever been a better visual representation for the hookup that shows its futility from the woman’s point of view.

  • Kennifer

    What wows me is the idea of relationships as a power struggle. That’s not been my experience ever and I feel sorry for anyone who thinks in that manner. They will find what they expect to.

  • Abbot

    “this type is going to resist the truth staring at them in the face even if they have to jam an ice pick into their eyeballs to continue not seeing it.”
    .
    This denial is palpable among women in the West and especially among those feminists. Basically, if women were motivated to obtain power independent of men then they would have more of it. They just dont get a rush of “feel good” when it comes to power and control the way men do. Thus, men rule.

  • Just1X

    “Women have no power in the real world except from men who willingly give it to them. And those that do end up being their tampons.”

    Women as a group have a lot of power, but individually (if their sisters are giving out free milk) not so much.

    “How do you think men in general can improve themselves?”

    Men should take the Red-pill (understand how the SMP & MMP work), learn as much games as they wish and live the best life they can (however they define a good life). Given how the MMP works, marriage is to be heavily discouraged. Men should not care whether any of this suits women’s interests, as there is no reciprocity. Until there is, women have made the bed, they get to lie in it (happy or not).

    Women are allowing feminists to define how society ‘should’ work. If women in general don’t like the current society, perhaps they need to re-think their attitudes. (Best of luck)

  • Abbot

    “What wows me is the idea of relationships as a power struggle. ”
    .
    Have you noticed that women and men in the West are in a power struggle and women comment and otherwise spew diatribes about it constantly? It would be very unusual indeed for that struggle to not transcend into the home, subtle as that may be. The motivation for men to marry is at an all time low, for good reason. Better to be free than to struggle.

  • Sassy6519

    That diagram looks as pleasant as trying to cross a minefield.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That diagram looks as pleasant as trying to cross a minefield.

      I thought the picture was worth a thousand words. Literally.

  • Herb

    @Kennifier

    What wows me is the idea of relationships as a power struggle. That’s not been my experience ever and I feel sorry for anyone who thinks in that manner. They will find what they expect to.

    We live in a world where the Marxist power struggle model is almost universally applied (feminism in many forms is explicitly Marxist in the sense that it applies his model of the class power struggle to gender, just as most modern race theorists apply it to race).

    Why does it surprise you that the SMP, especially in the era where feminism has wholly remade it, reflects the power struggle idea.

    That said, I’d like to thank you. I hadn’t before made the connection between the adherence to Marxist power struggle ideas and the fact that we now have combat dating built around the exploitation of the other and both sides trying to create rules that maximize their ability to exploit while minimizing their risk of being exploited it.

    That’s probably why I like HUS more than a lot of Game sites. Game advocates have, too often, bought into the feminist power struggle framework. Susan and some others (Athol, although I still have issues with his work) are rejecting said framework. They are pursuing what I consider a more honorable path. While acknowledging human nature they advocate using human intelligence to rise above it instead of just indulging it.

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    “What so few men know is that they are the gatekeepers to commitment. What most women know is that they are the gatekeepers to sexuality.”

    Exactly. I just did a blog post on this (http://theredpillroom.blogspot.com/2012/04/great-hamster-manifesto-its-trap.html) that describes why women, alas, can’t just rely on the feminist ideal of “being yourself”, getting fat and ignoring their appearances and then expect Prince Charming to fall into their lap. Men are starting to learn their own value in the dating world. They’re beginning to learn Game and use women’s desire for a relationship as leverage. And that means that they’re raising their expectations (which sucks for feminists, who are constantly trying to lower women’s expectations of themselves while raising it for men) and getting a lot more canny about just who they want to spend their lives with.

    Men are, indeed, the keepers of commitment. It’s the masculine equivalent of our “virtue”, our ability and willingness to ally ourselves with one woman (or just a few). Those fellas in the Puerarchy who are still hooking up like mad, y’all are the rest of that leverage. With Game-savvy PUAs pumpin’ & dumpin’ like it’s on sale, they provide a bleak alternative to pursuing commitment with a quality dude, which means his value as a high-status male goes up with his willingness to commit. But that also means his expectations of his future bride go up as well.

    Guys, recognize your value to women, and use it to your advantage. Remember, a woman in a crappy relationship enjoys higher status in the Matrix than a woman without a relationship, all things being equal. They crave the validation they get from their female peers in the Matrix more than they even crave the romantic connection. That provides a tremendous amount of leverage for the dude who understands that.

  • J

    @Jim

    You’re description of your friend’s success in the hook up scene was cogent and you were making a lot of sense until you said this: “Women are starving for relationships and I don’t care what they say here or anywhere. Women have no power in the real world except from men who willingly give it to them. And those that do end up being their tampons.”

    I think you’ve lost sight of a number of things. First, not every woman is “starving” for a relationship; marriage is till the norm for college-educated women. Most of those women are happy and in good relationships, not starving. Second, there are many areas were women have power that comes of their own agency, and, on the level of personal relationships, a lot of male power comes from what women are willing to cede or pretend to cede to them. My late mother, a member of the pre-feminist generation used to love to impress upon me the notion that realpower rested on my being able to bs some guy into believing he was in charge. Third, many men are in relationships with women for whom they are not emotional tampons. Again, let’s remember that stable marriage is still the norm in the demographic that most of us belong to.

  • Herb

    @Just1X

    Men should take the Red-pill (understand how the SMP & MMP work), learn as much games as they wish and live the best life they can (however they define a good life). Given how the MMP works, marriage is to be heavily discouraged. Men should not care whether any of this suits women’s interests, as there is no reciprocity. Until there is, women have made the bed, they get to lie in it (happy or not).

    I bolded above because if there is one lesson Game types and MRA should be pushing it is this:

    “A man needs to be ridden by a woman as much as a bicycle needs to be ridden by a fish.”

    And yes, I changed it from “have” to “ridden by” for a reason. In the combat dating era, especially in marriage 2.0, men are saddled and ridden too often.

    You don’t need a woman in your life to be a man or be complete. Sure, as Obsidian pointed out, if you don’t have kids you’ve lost in a biological sense (as I have).

    But guess what, I can still spend hours figuring out just how Kraftwerk made The Man Machine, listen to some VNV Nation, download a copy of Teenagers from Outer Space (which is out of copyright) to sample some dialog, and be inspired by Louis Jacolliot to channel the initiates of the lost continent of Rutas to make my own music.

    Or you can do your version of the above. The point is you don’t need a woman. If you physically need sexual contact there is no shame in deciding the way women have organized the current SMP is a losing game and just turn to the world’s oldest profession (which too many women let themselves become even if they don’t realize it).

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    When it’s right, it will be A to B to C to D, a linear progression rather than some convoluted mess.

    My husband and I went from A) emotional investment and friendship to B) love and relationship to C) living together to D) engaged and married. All this happened in a year, and we were 25.

    PS, if you like VNV Nation, Apoptygma Berzerk and Assemblage 23 are really good.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    PS, if you like VNV Nation, Apoptygma Berzerk and Assemblage 23 are really good.

    Did you miss the part about me having been a radio DJ twice in the past with a Goth-Industrial show ;)

    Plus, I’ve seen Apop live back at Synthpop Fest Boston in 2002. To this day Welcome to Earth is one of my favorite albums.

    This morning has been a mix of Kraftwerk and Decoded Feedback.

  • J

    With Game-savvy PUAs pumpin’ & dumpin’ like it’s on sale, they provide a bleak alternative to pursuing commitment with a quality dude, which means his value as a high-status male goes up with his willingness to commit.

    The irony is that many young women accept the hook-up scene or serial monogamy because they ALREADY see the majority of men as unwilling to commit until their late 20s or early 30s. I think the result will be more WGTOW; part of reason for the number of young women claiming to not want marriage has recently acceded the the number of young men making the same claim is that many young women have given up the assumption that everyone will eventually get married and are trying to build their own lives.

    In respect to women waiting for commitment, do we really expect young women of 18-21 to wait for sex until they marry at 26 to a 30 year old guy? Especially when they reach puberty at 12? If you really think about it, it’s a bigger achievement for a modern girl to hold off until college then it was for a Victorian girl who reached puberty at 15 to wait for marriage at 17. Earlier puberty and the extention of adolescence through grad school make abstaining damn near impossible except for those with the lowest sex drives or highest level of religiousness.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      In respect to women waiting for commitment, do we really expect young women of 18-21 to wait for sex until they marry at 26 to a 30 year old guy? Especially when they reach puberty at 12? If you really think about it, it’s a bigger achievement for a modern girl to hold off until college then it was for a Victorian girl who reached puberty at 15 to wait for marriage at 17. Earlier puberty and the extention of adolescence through grad school make abstaining damn near impossible except for those with the lowest sex drives or highest level of religiousness.

      This is my main problem with attempts to shame serial monogamy. The average person spends a full 14 years between puberty and marriage. Sex will be had. I argue that sex in the context of a relationship is far preferable to casual sex. Obviously, rapid firing one’s way through tons of relationships is just another form of promiscuity, but I think it’s beneficial for young men and women to gain relationship skills before their late 20s. Of course, guys may prefer to avoid commitment altogether, which is significantly more likely than women avoiding sex altogether.

  • Jason773

    How do you think men in general can improve themselves?

    First three things I would tell your average guy to do would be to watch their diet, regularly lift weights and dress better. In just six months time this can take your average guy (a 4-6) and bump his SMV up at least a point or two. The fact that’s it’s so easy for a guy to increase his value in such a relatively short time leaves me no sympathy for guys who don’t do this and still complain.

    Next on that list, after the first three are on point, would be to learn game.

  • Herb

    @J

    The irony is that many young women accept the hook-up scene or serial monogamy because they ALREADY see the majority of men as unwilling to commit until their late 20s or early 30s.

    In my experience it is women who are much more intent on waiting to establish their career prior to marriage than men. Men are much more responding to the “I don’t want serious yet” signal.

    Plus, women, just as men, seem to have two sets of requirements: fun sex and marriage. However, men who want marriage get kind of annoyed at being left out of the fun sex (this is a huge issue never married single mothers have…why pay the fare when I didn’t get the ride).

  • J

    I think the self-improvement route is a good idea for women as well. Even if I knew that I was going to stay single, I think I’d still want to go through life being the most interesting/attractive/positive person that I can possibly be.

    You would, Emily. I have a few female friends who never married and this is how they live.

  • J

    My husband and I went from A) emotional investment and friendship to B) love and relationship to C) living together to D) engaged and married. All this happened in a year, and we were 25.

    Alomost co-signed. My husband and I went from A) emotional investment and friendship to B) dating, love and relationship to C) engaged and married. All this happened in a year and a half, and we were in our 30s.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My husband and I went from A) emotional investment and friendship to B) love and relationship to C) living together to D) engaged and married. All this happened in a year, and we were 25.

      Hmmm, can’t cosign. My husband and I went from acquaintanceship to sex to acquaintanceship to sex to love and relationship to living together, engaged then married. Two and a half years in all.

      It’s a complicated way to start out.

  • Tom

    Yeah, like having a bucket of ice water dumped on your head. Wake up!
    ____________
    Only the true macho man thinks women have no power. Women hold the key to sex and in many cases, relationships. MANY men are just as desperate for relationships as women are. The macho man thinks women are here to serve him. They are not your mommy…lol

  • J

    In my experience it is women who are much more intent on waiting to establish their career prior to marriage than men. Men are much more responding to the “I don’t want serious yet” signal.

    It’s a vicious circle, I think. I agree that more women do want to wait to establish a career, but I also remember when the desired formula was marriage + career, as opposed career first, then marriage. And I think a lot of that comes from the sense that marriage may not happen or will happen much later than it used to. Among the younger women I know, there is less faith that marriage is something that a woman can rely on and more emphasis on being able to support one’s self in the event that it never happens or dissolves, leaving a woman with kids to support.

    In terms of single mothers, I think this is a different demographic than what I’m discussing. In that group, I think the chances of never kids is probably higher than the chances of single motherhood.

  • Just1X

    @J

    re WGTOW

    http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/mgtow-vs-wgtow.html

    “One, I don’t believe it. Sorry, just don’t. Normally I cite empirical data or statistics, but I have none. All I have is the totality of personal and anecdotal experience I’ve accumulated over the years to realize that women, especially in their 30’s and 40’s, AND ESPECIALLY IF THEY DON’T HAVE KIDS, become MORE desperate. Yes they’ll tell themselves 30 is the new 20. And yes, they’ll cite people like “Meg Ryan” or “Jennifer Aniston” who are still “hot” in their 40’s. And yes, they’ll read US or People magazine and watch reruns of “Tank Girl.” But in the end, I don’t believe women, like men in the MGTOW movement, believe it for one second. I believe it is their rationalization hamsters merely plagiarizing the MGTOW movement.

    Two, while the two are analogous (MGTOW and WGTOW), the analogy ends in the origins of both movements. The origins of MGTOW hearkens back to when these men were in their early teens. Nerd or jock. Player or uber-beta. Virgin or porn star. All men have had to suffer the games, psychoses, drama, and just plain BS associated with dating and courting women/girls since puberty. Some men, with a low threshold for psychological pain or abuse (or as I like to call it “self-respect”), just give up. They make a conscious economic decision weighing the costs and benefits of continuing to pursue the opposite sex and came to the decision not to chase any more. To hop on their motorcycles, get the snippity snip, minimize their expenses and head out into the vast plains of life and maximize the time they have on this planet for their own benefit before they died.

    This “process” or “epiphany” is different from the origins of WGTOW or how women decide going their own way is the best option. Most men go their own way in their prime. It’s a conscious choice. It wasn’t forced upon them. They purposely and consciously chose to quit because it was the wisest choice. Whereas with WGTOW, it’s a situation that seems forced upon them. They wake up one day, at the age of 37, realize the past 7 years was not as fruitful as it was from 1990-1997 and are faced with the reality nobody cares about Winona Ryder anymore. They only care about Megan Fox. They never analyzed or assessed the ROI of their efforts on attracting a male. They never looked back and said, “Gee, I’m going to die here in a short 40 years, I better quit pissing away my time at the bars and go hiking in Glacier National Park.” They just took the time to finally turn around and see men stopped chasing them back in Bush’s first administration.

    They then claim, “Oh yeah, me too! Fish-bicycle! I’m going my own way!” Sadly, because it’s their only option. This, does not a deeply thoughtful (or intellectually honest) epiphany make.”

    even Susan wasn’t convinced according to her comment in the link.

  • Lokland

    My two cents on power.

    No one has power of you (man or woman) unless you give it to them.
    Women have no sexual power unless men give it to them and even then its on a completely individual level.
    Men have no commitment power unless women give it to them and even then its on a completely individual level.

    It comes down to how bad do you want it vs. how bad do they want it.
    Want it less and your in power.

    @J, Hope

    My relationship went much the same way except that friends/emotional investment developed simultaneously with physical.
    Exclusivity and sex came within 3 days of each other but I can’t remember which was first. (I think sex.)

  • Lokland

    @Just1X

    +1

    I remember reading that. A very good breakdown.

  • Tom

    Susan, great chart.. that about sums it up

    People remember, only about 5% of women are considered promiscuous. So all these guys who say all women this, or all women that are so misinformed. 95% of women are just fine, and will not settle for some man looking for his mommy to wait on him hand and foot, as some of the haters seem to be looking for.
    The vast majority of men and women get it, unlike the vast majority of men who visit and comment here.
    I feel bad for any man whos woman left him. But I would bet, if he had treated her better, helped in the kitchen, the laundry room and changed a thousand diapers, maybe his woman would not have developed resentment toward him for not pulling his weight in the relationship. Maybe if he had paid attention to her sexual needs instead of just rolling over and snoring, she might have not lost that loving feeling.
    It isnt rocket science, but it may be a different language to the macho guys out there.

  • ozymandias

    Susan, it is like way more complicated than that. Looking at my current relationships (the polyamory is nonnormative but I don’t think how the relationships happen is so much), this is how they came together.

    Random –> Hookup –> Round Two –> NSA –> Dump –> End up living together the next year –> Friend –> Catch Feelings –> Date.
    Friend –> Hookup –> Round Two –> Date.*
    Catch Feelings –> Friend –> Date –> Have sex –> Dump –> Friends with Benefits–> No seriously like best friends AND ALSO SEX this is the best arrangement ever.

    The question of course is whether things were any less complicated in the much-vaunted past. I doubt it. People were still involved, even if sex wasn’t.

    *This LOOKS a lot more normative than it is, because I cut out all the poly-only bits. My girlfriend and I originally got together because we were going to have a threesome and then she spent the entire time reading comic books. *sigh*

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ozy

      Obviously, there’s going to be enormous variation – people looping back, changing their minds, fits and starts, breaking up, getting back together, etc. The point of the chart is really to highlight the odds of getting to dating via a hookup. Studies say 12% of the time. All those yellow and red boxes are just a visual representation of those odds.

  • Herb

    @J

    It’s a vicious circle, I think. I agree that more women do want to wait to establish a career, but I also remember when the desired formula was marriage + career, as opposed career first, then marriage.

    We could be in a particularly vicious positive feedback loop women delay so the men left are less inclined so they delay so women delay more and so on.

    Among the younger women I know, there is less faith that marriage is something that a woman can rely on and more emphasis on being able to support one’s self in the event that it never happens or dissolves, leaving a woman with kids to support.

    Yeah, well, we haven’t been great examples. I wish feminists would give up on their “divorce is men trading in old wives for younger” and look at the real stats. Women file more often and yes, I know, women are more likely to be the filer in amicable divorce although there are lots of women who force men to file so they don’t have to take the blame and on and on. I figure the rationalizations of why women do more are balanced by men and in the long run women are just more likely to want out. It doesn’t just fit hypergamy but the male tendency to like things settled thus making them less likely to divorce.

    What we are doing by not being honest about this is harming the women you describe. They think marriage isn’t safe because of divorce without knowing they are more likely to be the initiators. Ironically, this lack of knowledge I think fuels that very thing…they are distrustful and thus at trouble figure it’s going to go bad and might as well be proactive. If they knew it was generally women who initiate a fear that it’s coming and the need to be proactive could be lessened making them more secure.

  • J

    @Just1X

    IME, most PGTOW, male or female, are those who have given up. It may be that men do that earlier, either because it is clearer to them at a younger age that they have fewer relationship options or because they have less of a drive to have kids and more opportunity to find other fulfilling opportunities that take the place of family. But anyone who thinks GTOW is an attractive first choice for anybody is fooling themselves.

    They just took the time to finally turn around and see men stopped chasing them back in Bush’s first administration.

    I see this sort of comment so much that it is becoming a pet peeve of my aging self. Personally, my dry spell years in terms of garnering male attention occured when my kids were little. It seemed that two toodler trailing after me really detracted from my sex appeal. :-)

    Now, more than a decade later, I still, in the course of my daily activities, am flirted with by men my age and older–and that’s despite modest dress, a visible wedding ring and sometimes even the presence of my teenaged sons.

    As much as I hear about men in the ‘sphere hold themselves above Megan Fox because of her weird thumbs or saw the Winona Ryder has hit the wall, in reality I suspect that a reasonably kept middle aged woman in still attractive to her peers. Hell, I’ve even seen a few old ladies become belle of the nursing home.

  • J

    We could be in a particularly vicious positive feedback loop women delay so the men left are less inclined so they delay so women delay more and so on.

    Maybe. I also do think that the easy availability of sex feeds into it. If there was no pre-marital sex in the picture, both men and women would find a way to make marriage and career fit together. We’d find more marriage student housing on campus, more grad schools admitting both members of a couple and more kids being born in year 15 of a marriage.

    It doesn’t just fit hypergamy but the male tendency to like things settled thus making them less likely to divorce.

    This is a really intersting point, Herb. With the increased ability to be self-supoorting has come a tendency for women to leave unsatisfactory relationships. While men really do like things “settled,” especially as they age, women tend to want more quality in the relationship as they age. In my own home, I find that DH is looking forward to retirement and the kids leaving so that we can “coast.” I’m looking forward to our going out and playing together and our reviving what we had together before the kids came. There is a real difference in how men and women deal with this, and I can see how “gray divorces” result when people don’t meet each other’s expectations.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @J

    “But anyone who thinks GTOW is an attractive first choice for anybody is fooling themselves.”

    First choice? Not hardly. In fact, a man choosing to GTOW often does so AFTER one of two things occurs:
    a. He witnesses friends and/or family in a horrible relationship, ruined in a divorce, or had a false accusation leveled against them.
    b. He’s been through a divorce himself.

    It’s not always attractive either. But it is a smart play when the legal side of things does not favor you. I refer you again, as Just1X did earlier, to Captain Capitalism’s seminal post on MGTOW vs. “WGTOW.”

    @Ian

    That’s a DAMN good post, man.

  • Ted D

    Susan – please forgive the rant I’m about to unleash. If it is just too much, I will understand if you delete it…

    Tom – “I feel bad for any man whos woman left him. But I would bet, if he had treated her better, helped in the kitchen, the laundry room and changed a thousand diapers, maybe his woman would not have developed resentment toward him for not pulling his weight in the relationship. Maybe if he had paid attention to her sexual needs instead of just rolling over and snoring, she might have not lost that loving feeling.”

    Man (or woman…), this here looks like troll bait, but I’m in a pretty foul mood today and a rant will do me some good.

    First of all, bullshit to your entire comment above. In my case, I may have been able to treat my ex-wife better, but she didn’t care to tell me how. I have cooked my entire life, and once my ex-wife went back to work, I pulled my fair share of kitchen cleanup duty. (while she was a SAHM, I didn’t do much around the house since she was home all day.) I didn’t do laundry because every time I tried, she bitched me out for doing something wrong. So, I said fuck it and let her do it all. Same with loading the dishwasher. I’m all for constructive criticism, but “you did that all wrong” isn’t constructive. When my son was born, I used to come home from work every single day, take him and spend at least an hour alone with him to give my ex-wife time to unwind after spending all day at home with him. (usually it was several hours…) I changed my fair share of his diapers, gave baths, fed him, and generally was involved in his care, even though my wife was a SAHM until he started 1st grade. During the time in which we were having sex, 8 out of 10 times I MADE SURE she got “hers” before I got mine, by whatever means was necessary. (I’m not going to get into details, use your imagination if you want.) In fact, after she left she dropped some comments about how good in bed I supposedly was. I guess she didn’t find greener grass over that fence.

    And you know what really sucks? I still believe that deep down inside, she is a good person. I beta’d out massively, and she lost attraction. She found an old flame on Facebook, started and emotional affair, and ultimately left to “be on her own”, which meant going to him. And guess what? He turned out to be a slimy guy that had sex on video chat for others to watch. She was mortified and ended up living with her father for some time. She is with another guy now, and back to having the same problems we had in our own marriage. And, again, I consider her to be a good person. If that is even remotely true, what are the chances for a normal, healthy relationship lasting a lifetime? Even people I look at and consider “normal” like my ex are so screwed up that they can’t recognize a good relationship with issues and work on them, and instead simply bail when things get tough. She is smart, has a job in medicine, and is generally a responsible person. Yet she can’t figure out how the hell to be happy with herself, and with a partner. She has an above average IQ, and in fact has a better score than I do. (not saying I’m a genius, just pointing out that she is far from stupid).

    Did I screw up? For sure. I should have told her to quit acting like a stupid little girl and instead behave like a grown women, but I never in a million years would have figured that would be MY job to do prior to taking the red pill. I should have taken my push back on laundry and dishes and applied it to our entire relationship, but again, prior to the red pill I never would have believed a grown adult would push my limits so far that I wouldn’t even recognize where I was standing. I believed that she would respect my boundaries, and that all the bitching and complaining meant I wasn’t being accommodating enough for her, when in fact I was letting her walk all over me.

    So Tom, (or Tommett) fuck you. I may have screwed up, but I never once neglected my ex, or treated her like shit. In fact, the only thing I was guilty of is treating her like an adult, instead of a spoiled little brat of a girl. I should have put her over my knee and spanked her until my hand hurt.

  • HELP

    First time reader. Looking over my shoulder because my gf (first ever) doesn’t like me going on dating or relationship sites she says they will ruin our relationship. I guess you could say I’m a beta, maybe omega. She’s my first gf and I don’t want to lose her but I need to know what I’m dealing with here. We were at a movie the other night (rom com) and the couple were fighting and she said something about “you will end up hating women”. She when into my history while I was out and erased it so I couldn’t find the sites again. I just want to know what I’m dealing with.

  • Just1X

    @J

    “But anyone who thinks GTOW is an attractive first choice for anybody is fooling themselves.”

    I think we have some agreement here but I doubt that it’s total…

    The younger men who are marriage oriented but get no interest in their young selves (beta?) are one type of person to GTOW. They look at their options in younger life and decide to do something else. By the time the women are interested in these men’s increasing wealth and resources (because the women’s SMP value is dropping), the men may well not like the risk of marriage (too much to lose, and not sold on the dream of cohabiting, let alone marriage).

    (I did the trad marriage followed quickly by nouveau trad divorce (sans enfants). I decided I was done with that stuff -> GMOW. No financial biggy (fortunately).)

    So, first choice? no, I agree with you, but I don’t think that it’s last resort for men either. For women? I agree with Cappy Cap (link above).

    I also think that younger men now are more aware of the realities of the SMP and MMP than my (crumbly) generation was, so maybe more decisive about taking the MGTOW vs PUA decision. Some of the young MRAs (around and about the web) I have heard from are far more aware of the issues than I was, they don’t need to make the marriage mistake that I did.

  • J

    She is with another guy now, and back to having the same problems we had in our own marriage.

    Yeah, it’s amazing how that stuff follows people from one relationship to another. Part of being married is a willingness to work on one’s self.

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    @HELP: Get thee to Married Man Sex Life, go.

    Seriously, Athol Kay’s stuff will open your eyes, allow you to take the Red Pill without fear, and put your relationship-killing trepedations behind you. He lays out the whole deal: the SMP, the Rationalization Hamster, the Body Agenda, it’s like an Intro To The Red Pill. Athol brings Game to marriage and LTRs in a way that demonstrates How It Should Be Done. Can’t recommend it highly enough.

    But the first thing you should do is stop kissing her ass and insist that she treat you with respect. If she knows you want her more than she wants you, she retains the edge — and the control — in the relationship.

  • Just1X

    @J

    “It seemed that two toodler trailing after me really detracted from my sex appeal. ”

    No shit!!!!! LMAO

    Feminists and divorce advocates don’t seem to be very keen on advertising the average single man’s aversion to a single mum (beyond hook ups).

  • J

    @Chris_in_CA

    I don’t want to get into a “who hurts who more” pissing match, but every WGTOW that I know has several heartbreak stories of her own as well or, if very young, has witnessed her mother being mistreated. Like I said, it’s no one’s first choice.

  • Just1X

    @HELP

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/

    run – don’t walk!

    As Ian says, MMSL as well, if you insist that “She is the One”.

    They are both in the same ballpark regarding how women work, but Chateau / Heartiste / Roissy (the same guy) is for single men, Athol is for the already doomed (married) :)

  • J

    “It seemed that two toddlers trailing after me really detracted from my sex appeal. ”

    No shit!!!!! LMAO

    Yeah, apparently it doesn’t matter how cute the kids are if they look like another guy. Whodduh thunk it?

    To tell you the truth, I wasn’t too surprised by that when it happened. The shocker was that 10 years later, men started paying attention again when the kids weren’t around. The offensive thing is the guys who’ll make a play for you IN FRONT OF the kids.

    About a year ago, I was buying some clothes for the boys when a salesman made a play for me right in front of them. I heard my younger son grumble something and my older son replied to him, “No, Billy, a motherf’er is someone who fcuks his own mother, a guy who comes onto our mother in front of her kids is just an old pig.” I laughed, shrugged my shoulders, put my credit card back into my wallet and left.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com The Private Man

    I repeat something I said last year:

    Roissy to get ‘em…

    Athol to keep ‘em…

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=EOVGlghiqNk&NR=1 Pip

    “Re: WGTOW One, I don’t believe it. Sorry, just don’t.”

    We exist. Our continued happiness sure gives job security to its doomsayers. My apologies if this fact ruins any misery-loves-company reverie yall were enjoying. If you need to daydream, try doing it to the latest from Mazzy Star, “Lay Myself Down,” linked to through my name.

    Pip pip hooray! ^_^

  • Just1X

    @J

    “The offensive thing is the guys who’ll make a play for you IN FRONT OF the kids.

    About a year ago, I was buying some clothes for the boys when a salesman made a play for me right in front of them. I heard my younger son grumble something and my older son replied to him, “No, Billy, a motherf’er is someone who fcuks his own mother, a guy who comes onto our mother in front of her kids is just an old pig.” I laughed, shrugged my shoulders, put my credit card back into my wallet and left.”

    Don’t know about offensive, but unwise? yeah!

    How come your kids aren’t interested in your happiness? I’m not a parent, but this is somewhat disappointing isn’t it? This sounds like the kids are treating their mum in the same way that men complain that women are treating them (solipsistically – it’s all about them). As I said, I am not (thank-ferk) a parent, so bow to your superior wisdom over kidness.

  • ozymandias

    Tom: So you’re suggesting that every breakup is because men don’t do their share of the chores? Um. No. Stop being on the vaguely-feminist side, you’re making us look bad. :P

    There’s lots of reasons why people break up, ranging from the relationship being abusive to different life-plans to one person’s values shifting to not being attracted to each other anymore to communication failures to a sudden and strange aversion to redheads. No two breakups are the same.

  • http://eradica.wordpress.com Firepower

    What a chart
    What a DRAG
    when casual sex
    becomes routinized

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What a DRAG
      when casual sex
      becomes routinized

      There’s nothing for routine than an alcohol-fueled hookup. Women only cum 18% of the time. And guys only half the time! Now that’s what I call a drag.

  • J

    How come your kids aren’t interested in your happiness?

    I guess they’re more interested in their own happiness, part of which hinges on me and their father continuing to be happily married. ;-)

    You didn’t realize that I’m married? Further upthread, I said that I was surprised that men approach me despite my age, modest dress AND a visible wedding ring.

    On my way out the door. If I don’t respond further, it’s because I’m gone, not because I’m offended.

  • Herb

    @Tom

    I feel bad for any man whos woman left him. But I would bet, if he had treated her better, helped in the kitchen, the laundry room and changed a thousand diapers, maybe his woman would not have developed resentment toward him for not pulling his weight in the relationship.

    Yeah, because working two or more jobs while she worked part time at best, working full time while going to school full time while she worked part time and went to school for a second degree in art of all things full time, living where she wanted to live (building and state including changing where I was going to college an what I would major in as a result), and so on wasn’t treating her well enough.

    Having a stay at home and no kids wife who still complained I didn’t do enough housework while working two jobs wasn’t treating her well enough.

    I used the word “ridden” above for a reason. You may like being broken to the saddle for nothing in exchange Tom, but don’t push that on the rest of us.

  • Just1X

    @Ozy

    yeah – my wife turned into her mother – game irrevocably over

  • Just1X

    @J

    okay, sorry I missed the married bit – my bad. that does change things markedly.

  • Herb

    @HELP

    She when into my history while I was out and erased it so I couldn’t find the sites again. I just want to know what I’m dealing with.

    Based on her invading your privacy to control what you see, I suspect she’s either immature or hiding something depending on your age (of which I’m not sure).

    Also stupid, because erasing your history will only slow you down a little in the age of Google.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “The average person spends a full 14 years between puberty and marriage.”

    If one defines serial monogamy as temporary monogamous relationships that will eventually end, then I’d say the average person spends less than half of these 14 years in such situations. Allowing for periods completely single, and then several years of dating/living with one’s future spouse, serial monogamy isn’t as bad as some would make it out to be. It’s funny, the only other things I’ve heard referred to with that term are serial cheating/philandering, and serial killing. There’s clearly a negative connotation : |

    However, IMO young women are far more likely to go the serial route than young men. Relationships (short-term or otherwise) seem much easier to get into for the ladies. The average woman will probably have more relationship “experience” than the guy she ends up marrying. Cause for concern? Maybe…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      It’s funny, the only other things I’ve heard referred to with that term are serial cheating/philandering, and serial killing. There’s clearly a negative connotation : |

      Actually, among young people the term “serial monogamist” does have quite a negative connotation. It refers to a person who can’t bear to be alone. They’ll take whatever they can just to have a relationship, and the moment it ends, they audition everyone in their circle for the new one. I saw this happen with one of the women in my focus groups. Her relationship ended, she took a look around at her social circle, musing over who might fill his spot. The very next weekend she made out with a guy whom she had previously deemed very unattractive. Within two weeks they were officially dating. It’s been over a year, and they’re going strong. I don’t get it. I’d like to think she fell for him once she got to know him, but I’m afraid she’ll ditch him when her pool of “potential new boyfriends” becomes attractive enough. Ugh.

  • J

    @SW

    This is my main problem with attempts to shame serial monogamy. The average person spends a full 14 years between puberty and marriage. Sex will be had. I argue that sex in the context of a relationship is far preferable to casual sex.

    Cosigned completely. There’s been a lot written in the ‘sphere in the attempt to slut-shame women in early marriage or to lower the age of first maariage by discouraging education and career for women. Frankly, I can’t see that being effective. It’s possible that there are social changes on the horizon as college becomes les affordable, that may have that effect, but any changes that come will be the result of changing social and economic conditions, not from the notion that serial monogamy is the preferred from of female promiscuity and therefore bad.

    I think it’s beneficial for young men and women to gain relationship skills before their late 20s.

    I wonder if there is a crtical time period for that and if people who don’t acquire relationship skills in that time frame either lose out permanently or have a significantly harder time with the opposite sex.

    Of course, guys may prefer to avoid commitment altogether, which is significantly more likely than women avoiding sex altogether.

    Yes!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      I wonder if there is a crtical time period for that and if people who don’t acquire relationship skills in that time frame either lose out permanently or have a significantly harder time with the opposite sex.

      My own sense is that the people avoiding relationships when young and playing the field are going to have higher divorce rates in general, and I think that will be exacerbated according to their level of premarital promiscuity. IOW, sluts marry sluts – I don’t think that’s going to work out too well.

      I don’t think anyone needs more than one intimate relationship. As you know, my advice to young people is to stick with the first suitable person they fall in love with, even if they’re young.

  • J

    Not a problem, Just 1X.

  • ozymandias

    Susan: News at eleven– having casual sex is a shitty way to get relationships. Particularly having casual sex while drunk with people you don’t particularly like!* So I am going to make the radical proposal here that if you want a relationship and not casual sex, you shouldn’t have casual sex. Lots of people in college are interested in relationships! Find them and date them! It is really not that hard.

    Honestly, I am slightly puzzled at the idea that casual sex that doesn’t result in a relationship is bad. How do we know that it’s a failed attempt to get a relationship as opposed to a successful attempt to get casual sex?

    *This also appears to be a shitty way to get a lot of things, including “good sex.” As a general rule, you should have sex with people you like! I’d add “sober,” but that might just be the straightedge talking. (GOD how do you people stand alcohol it is SO GROSS.)

  • J

    Women only cum 18% of the time.

    Not surprised. Married women have far more satisfying sex lives than single women

    And guys only half the time!

    That truly surprises me. I thought that girls were giving a lot of bjs and getting nothing back.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      That truly surprises me. I thought that girls were giving a lot of bjs and getting nothing back.

      I suspect the culprit is whiskey dick… :-/

  • Herb

    @ozymandias

    Honestly, I am slightly puzzled at the idea that casual sex that doesn’t result in a relationship is bad. How do we know that it’s a failed attempt to get a relationship as opposed to a successful attempt to get casual sex?

    Because a lot of people are having casual sex as a relationship getting method. Thus, when they have casual sex with someone who is using casual sex to get casual sex they feel cheated.

    What they should feel is stupid and trying other methods.

    Also, remember, casual sex is empowering and shows you’re in control of your body and you can make your own choices and proves you’re not different from a man and, and…

    Hey, VNV Nation has a new album out…you go grrl, I’ll be over hear checking this out.

  • Herb

    @J

    That truly surprises me. I thought that girls were giving a lot of bjs and getting nothing back.

    The tiny bit of player in me wonders if you know any of these women and can I have their number. It’s been so long since I’ve had one.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Herb, why would you have a stay-at-home wife when you have no kids? Even here, Mormon women work until they get pregnant, then they stay at home after giving birth. I’ve had a male coworker comment on this about one of the jobs he had in a more rural area of Utah.

    Ozymandias, sex with love is farrrrr superior to sex with mere like. Also, I can’t stand alcohol or polygamy, so does that make me more judgemental? :P

  • J

    The tiny bit of player in me wonders if you know any of these women and can I have their number. It’s been so long since I’ve had one.

    LOL. Aw, Herb…

  • ozymandias

    Herb: As a sex-positive person, I think making the sexual choices you want to make is empowering and shows you control your body and make your own choices, whether the sexual choices you want to make are “ALL OF THE DRUNKEN SEX WITH PEOPLE I DON’T LIKE!” or “I’m going to be a virgin till I get married!” Or something else! Do what makes you happy! If something doesn’t make you happy, do something else and fuck the haters!

    Hope: I dunno, depends on if you’re being an asshole towards other people about their drinking and multiple-marriage habits. :P

    As someone who’s experienced both, comparing sex with love and sex with like is like comparing Ferris wheels and rollercoasters. They’re both fun; some people like one, some people like the other, some people like both, some people like neither. You could compare them and be like “rollercoasters are the most fun!” but that tells you absolutely nothing useful about either experience.

    …Also because you can totally have crap sex with someone you’re in love with or great sex with someone you’re friends with. I guess that would be the “if a rollercoaster is crap then it is not fun” bit in the metaphor?

  • sweetsue

    @Just1X

    Not all women who go their own way had it forced on them. Women with self respect who saw that once legal status and standing had been attained the via the “feminist” “right to life on the same terms as men” was a losing proposition. Just because you have the “right, freedom” to act does not mean it is your own best interest to act without thinking. Those women with critical thinking skills and self respect refused to trade the “patriarchal view” for the radical feminist dogma. These women with self respect and critical thinking skills always recognized their power and freedom to be self determining came from within and opted to retain their personal power; pursued equal treatment under the law and let society think as they so chose and owned their choices and the responsibility that comes with making choices. These same women view men as fellow human beings. Most people lack the self respect and self confidence to think critically and act accordingly – hence the Hook Up culture and wars.

    The price paid for these WGTOW by choice (WGTOWBC) is pressure to conform from “feminists” who are threatened by women who have the stamina to make their own choices and not bow to pressure. These women know they do not have anything to prove and are comfortable with themselves. So they are not putting out then pulling back to relationship mode. Some may have tried it found it lacking and completed a course correction; eliminating sunk costs. This is most likely why WGTOWBC do not unite to fight against those giving away as someone called it “free milk”; they know that hooking up is an expensive failure. They have nothing to lose not engaging in the fight.

    In contrast WGTOW by default started late and after many and varied battle scars and these women writ large are angry and as described desperate for relationships and often spout the “feminist party line” rather than lose the sunk cost for blind allegiance to the “movement”.

    Great graphic Susan- hope it provides a wake up call for some of the “feminist sheeple”

  • INTJ

    This is my main problem with attempts to shame serial monogamy. The average person spends a full 14 years between puberty and marriage. Sex will be had. I argue that sex in the context of a relationship is far preferable to casual sex. Obviously, rapid firing one’s way through tons of relationships is just another form of promiscuity, but I think it’s beneficial for young men and women to gain relationship skills before their late 20s. Of course, guys may prefer to avoid commitment altogether, which is significantly more likely than women avoiding sex altogether.

    I’m not going to practice serial monogamy. If I get really tired of waiting, I’ll have NSA sex, because I don’t have the emotional energy to go through a series of temporary relationships.

    When I choose someone to marry, I’m definitely going to judge her on her past relationships – casual or otherwise. This is especially so because women don’t have to wait till they’re older for their MMV to go up. If she was too busy with career or whatever to look for a husband and didn’t have the self-control to wait, then I’m going to hold that against her.

  • sweetsue

    @Herb
    Interesting comments…
    “A lot of people are having casual sex as a relationship getting method. Thus, when they have casual sex with someone who is using casual sex to get casual sex they feel cheated.”

    This is the problem with the NSA/HUS culture it is inherently dishonest and self serving. People lie to themselves and each other about what their real desires are from the outset and fail to communicate clearly and honestly about their motives. There is nothing wrong with being self serving and wanting what you want; but be up front about it so the other person can make an informed decision. Own your issues and take responsibility for dealing with those issues and the consequences and cost of decisions. Respect yourself and others enough to be honest.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ozymandias, I live and let live, and I am fine with other people’s choices as long as they don’t mess with me. People who drink are cool, if they don’t drink and drive.

    Personally, I think telling people to have sex with “like” or with “friends” is like telling them it’s okay to drink and drive. Sure you might still get to your intended destination, but you’re taking a much bigger risk, not to mention risk running over innocent people.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Personally, I think telling people to have sex with “like” or with “friends” is like telling them it’s okay to drink and drive. Sure you might still get to your intended destination, but you’re taking a much bigger risk, not to mention risk running over innocent people.

      There is a small minority of women who just want casual, period. That’s awesome for them, they should always have takers. I made the flowchart to drive the point home that if one hopes to get to “Date” there are many potential wrong turns.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Plus, then you create a culture in which it’s socially sanctioned albeit slightly (and only slightly) frowned upon to drink and drive. Oh you’re only a little tipsy, you’ll be careful, etc. Same thing with casual sex. Oh you’re friends, it’s not a big deal, etc. End results are messy driving with more accidents and worse sexual atmosphere with more issues all around…

    In my view, sex is positive when taken seriously, done with love and care, and the opposite of positive when done casually, without precautions and carelessly.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    On serial monogamy.

    Dating =/= serial monogamy.
    Serial monogamy is when you dump your fiance/husband/boyfriend etc. and find a new one, on purpose. Some relationships just don’t work out and thats fine but if you keep doing it over and over again, thats a bad sign.

    Personally when I say I hate serial monogamy I’m referring to the marriage variety over dating. Dating is at best a neutral thing, good or evil is dependent on its use.

    Also, your right. Sex in relationship is > casual in terms of judgement of partner count. Don’t know why it just is.

  • this is Jen

    Ted said
    And you know what really sucks? I still believe that deep down inside, she is a good person. I beta’d out massively, and she lost attraction.
    —————————————————————————-

    I appreciated your rant, Ted.
    Ithink this is a huge part of what happened in my marriage ( coupled with one giant IMPORTANT, NON NEGOTIABLE lie that turned up late in the marriage)

    My husband beta’d out. I became more and more of the husband as time went by….which just made resentment grow.

    I hope he would say the same thing about me that you did about your ex- that I’m a good person. Looking back and trying to gain insight has taken alot of years. He did tell me he was deleriously happy until the day I left him. ( of course I tried and tried to improve things, tried to get him to understand- but looking back I dont think I really knew myself)

    Luckily for me, I eventually found a much much better match. And as I do gain insight I now know why this marriage is so great.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “I wonder if there is a crtical time period for that and if people who don’t acquire relationship skills in that time frame either lose out permanently or have a significantly harder time with the opposite sex.”

    My experience says emphatically NOT. The only quality men I know of at the age of 25 have had few or ZERO relationships prior to their current one.

    This whole “date a lot of people” thing seems to be exclusively a female trait in my own social circle, which really doesn’t help to lessen my suspicion that it is an excuse for serial monogamy and using the incredible leverage women have at an early age to “sample.”

    Which is something that isn’t really afforded to men.

    Do not be surprised if quality men consider a large number of LTRs, even WITHOUT sex, to be negatives, and that women with a serial monogamous past are going to be expected to ante up their game.

  • ozymandias

    Hope: You mean that having casual sex has a risk of killing passerby? Oh no! I’ll stop having casual sex immediately!

  • Dogsquat

    @Susan and J:

    ” I wonder if there is a crtical time period for that and if people who don’t acquire relationship skills in that time frame either lose out permanently or have a significantly harder time with the opposite sex.

    My own sense is that the people avoiding relationships when young and playing the field are going to have higher divorce rates in general, and I think that will be exacerbated according to their level of premarital promiscuity. ”
    _________________________

    I agree that having a good relationship is a learned skill. It’s possible to learn from one partner or several, but either way – your ass is gonna learn something.

    For example, I struggle sometimes with cohabitation – not as bad as I used to, but it’s not as easy for me as, say, tying my shoes. There’s an art to it, a sort of learned social lubrication, that has never come easy for me.

    I don’t have a problem living with other people – I’ve done fine with male (even female) roommates, or even in berthing areas on amphibious assault ships. Those are your buddies, and it’s usually fun.

    Living with a girlfriend is somehow different, though.

    I have hope for myself, though. The other day I looked at the sheer acreage of space in my shower and bathroom sink lost to multitudinous lotions, shampoos, scrubs, soaps, cleansers, cleansing foaming face scrubs, creams, perfumes, makeup, potions, masques, and drums of jojoba oil.

    I did not curse Vidal Sassoon, nor imagine taking a flamethrower to Garnier corporate headquarters. I did not do any mental arithmetic like “If we spend three nights a week together, on average, this crap will more than double if we actually move in together….carry the nine….divide by Gillette….”

    I simply showered, scraped my face, and brushed my fangs, wading without complaint through the knee-deep pastel plastic bottle pit that’s somehow replaced my bathroom.

    Next week I am seeing a psychiatrist for help in dealing with the Imelda Marcos-like volume of shoes accumulating in my closet.

    As I said – I am hopeful.

  • Dogsquat

    @Hope:

    I tend to agree with you about casual sex being at best neutral and and worst harmful for the majority of people.

    Ozymandias, though, is a Special Case. She’s not some wide-eyed ingenue who hasn’t spared a thought about this stuff. She’s got her crap together, near as I can tell. I respect her as a fellow outlier on the Bell Curve of human sexuality.

    If you haven’t, I encourage you to go peruse her blog. I poked around over there several months ago.

    I suspect you (Hope) and I are wired pretty similarly about lots of things, while Ozy is wired in a very different way. She’s internally consistent and fair, yet entirely alien to me. It was quite interesting to see such a different perspective.

  • SayWhaat

    If you really think about it, it’s a bigger achievement for a modern girl to hold off until college then it was for a Victorian girl who reached puberty at 15 to wait for marriage at 17.

    Well I guess that makes me the Champion of champions at the Self-Control Olympics.

  • SayWhaat

    Actually, among young people the term “serial monogamist” does have quite a negative connotation. It refers to a person who can’t bear to be alone. They’ll take whatever they can just to have a relationship, and the moment it ends, they audition everyone in their circle for the new one. I saw this happen with one of the women in my focus groups. Her relationship ended, she took a look around at her social circle, musing over who might fill his spot. The very next weekend she made out with a guy whom she had previously deemed very unattractive. Within two weeks they were officially dating. It’s been over a year, and they’re going strong. I don’t get it. I’d like to think she fell for him once she got to know him, but I’m afraid she’ll ditch him when her pool of “potential new boyfriends” becomes attractive enough. Ugh.

    One of my good friends from college was like this too. She’d pick up a new relationship as soon as she decided she wanted another one. She had no problem doing so — one time she literally met a guy in a park and they were official 2 weeks later. She had sex with them before each relationship became official, too.

    I don’t know how she does it. She’s super well-kept and feminine…but flaky as fuck, goddamn.

  • ozymandias

    Dogsquat: Ugh, I know. I have no idea what half the stuff my girlfriend has on her side of the bathroom counter even DOES, except that some of it looks like torture devices.

    See, I think my sexual ethics is the most sensible, because it also allows for people who like what for want of a better word I will call “normal” sex and relationships to have perfectly happy and enjoyable sex lives. And we people who don’t want it can go off on our polyamorous adventures! It works out well for everyone. :)

    You can’t peruse the old blog, unfortunately, I set it to private a while back.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    “When I choose someone to marry, I’m definitely going to judge her on her past relationships – casual or otherwise.”

    From what I’ve heard, seen, and read, women are employing this strategy more and more, as well. I don’t mean the promiscuous ones. I’ve personally known of three guys who got stung by the reverse SDS.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      I’ve personally known of three guys who got stung by the reverse SDS.

      I’d love to hear those stories – can you fill in the deets?

  • Richard Aubrey

    Guy named Cunningham runs a blog for what amounts to game in marriage.
    Among other things, he says wives will run shit tests until the day they die. If you get tired of the conflict, if you don’t know how to manage it, you will, as a poster here said, “beta up”. And then she’s unhappy.
    His view is that women can’t help it and shouldn’t be condemned for it. The hubby just has to be able to handle it, which means seeing it when it happens.
    It’s an interesting view and might well describe LTR, or even the STR, or the first part of an LTR which looks like a STR. Marriage is not required for this to happen.

    IMO, a shit test can’t be over something important or expensive. If the guy fails a shit test and does something important that he shouldn’t do, the results are catastrophic.
    So shit tests are generally around small stuff. Simple–to say–is to never do anything you think you shouldn’t, whether you think it’s a shit test or just a difference in opinion or judgment. Problem is, since it’s a little thing more than likely, going along won’t seem like such a big deal.
    Wrong.

    A different tactic is to say, in effect, “Sure. Do it your way. Let me know how it works out.” IOW, “I dare you.”

    Conclusion is that going beta includes but is not limited to doing things you know you shouldn’t be doing. Stop that. But making a one-eighty on the issue is going to make a lot of noise in the beginning.

  • Esau

    Dogsquat: Ozymandias, though, is a Special Case. …. She’s got her crap together, near as I can tell.

    Hmm. Before your cup runs over here, DS, you may want to read this fairly recent post

    http://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/happy-april-first/

    wherein a blogger posting as “ozymandias42″ reveals that she considers the troubles of your life to be a joke. Literally. As a bonus challenge, if you can make it through the comments without hurling, I’ll be impressed. (Susan, sorry for the cross-blog static; I won’t bring it up here again.) Caveat lector, and all that.

    Ozy: Stop being on the vaguely-feminist side, you’re making us look bad.

    This may be a good time to recall the old phrase, “You can’t fall off the floor.”

  • Dogsquat

    @Ozy

    “See, I think my sexual ethics is the most sensible, because it also allows for people who like what for want of a better word I will call “normal” sex and relationships to have perfectly happy and enjoyable sex lives. ”
    ________________________
    There was an element in what I read back then that was subtly different than many other sex pozzie folks, though:

    It seemed to me that you were very forthright about casual sex not being for everyone. There are seemingly a lot of folks out there proselytizing that casual sex = empowerment. Period. End of story. They sort of push it on people. I think that’s detrimental, as I believe Hope does.

    You seemed to offer your viewpoint for consideration, instead. It’s the difference between telling a guy he’s gotta drink to be a man and saying,”Hey, red wine might have some health benefits. If you drink too much, though, you’re gonna puke. Also, don’t drink and drive.”

    You were also very accepting of my views. You and I are totally different, but I’m not picking your pocket or breaking your leg, so you don’t give a shit. I feel the same. Not everyone who identifies as sex positive is the same, as evidenced by a few of your commenters.

  • Dogsquat

    Esau, I took that as an April Fool’s joke.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Geez Dogsquat. I think I have fewer pairs of shoes than my husband does (about 3?), and I use exactly two lotion products and zero makeup, so our bathroom countertop is pretty barren.

    Anyway, I don’t mind the people with different/poly wiring. They’re doing their own off-road stuff and not affecting normal traffic. But the people who I have to share a road with… I really don’t want them to drink and drive.

    Maybe this is just a crappy analogy, but since I’m pregnant, and I know people who have gotten into accidents that weren’t their fault while pregnant, plus kids that have been killed by drunk drivers, I’m really hung up on this point.

  • Abbot

    So Tom, (or Tommett) fuck you

    Um. No. Stop being on the vaguely-feminist side, you’re making us look bad.

    You may like being broken to the saddle for nothing in exchange Tom, but don’t push that on the rest of us.

    —————————————————-

    Folks, try to remember why this person posts. There is an agenda there and its nothing personal, really

  • Dogsquat

    @Hope

    I was going to offer words of encouragement in the form of a long treatise encompassing physics, physiology, and mechanical engineering. Then I went back and read what I’d written.

    I have a different bit of advice for you:

    If a guy wearing a jacket that says PARAMEDIC on the back starts talking with you about pregnancy and car crashes, just tell him to fuck off. Seriously – you’re doing yourself a favor. What he thinks is encouraging will sound awful to a normal person.

    He might get miffed at first, but eventually he’ll remember what he does for a living. He will make an effort to maintain polite, non-gory conversation from that point forward. Especially in front of pregnant ladies.

  • J

    I’m not going to practice serial monogamy. If I get really tired of waiting, I’ll have NSA sex, because I don’t have the emotional energy to go through a series of temporary relationships.

    I’m not sure that women set out intentionally to practice serial monogamy. I would assume that most women think that their first love will last forever and then rack up enough second and third tries until they look back and see that what they’ve particpated in has in fact become serial monogamy. Bear in mind that, for many women, that chain of relationships will include incidences of being dumped by guys or having NSA sex with the one-sided assumption that strings are attached.

    When you have NSA sex will you explicitly let the women know that is your intention or will you expect her to correctly quess your intentions, thus becoming part of a “number” that will make her unattractive to guys who feel as you do? My guess is that guys would say straight up that it’s NSA don’t get much sex.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    PS, if you like VNV Nation, Apoptygma Berzerk and Assemblage 23 are really good.

    Hubby is that you? You are totally talking his language here. I just know a bit about it.

    A) emotional investment and friendship to B) love and relationship to C) living together to D) engaged and married. All this happened in a year, and we were 25

    Skipping rewording A with just emotional investment I don’t do friends first and skipping C this was more or less the way it happened for us around a year too.

    My experience says emphatically NOT. The only quality men I know of at the age of 25 have had few or ZERO relationships prior to their current one.

    Cosign this I barely had any personal experience before my hubby. Everything I learned about relationships I learned from my parents and my older friends. Don’t we live in the age of information? People shouldn’t need a new boyfriend every year to learn to deal with people me thinks.

    “See, I think my sexual ethics is the most sensible, because it also allows for people who like what for want of a better word I will call “normal” sex and relationships to have perfectly happy and enjoyable sex lives. ”

    As with the example of the 14 year old girl that wants to have sex with a 40 year old guy, your ethics do restrict people and you do have standards on what is “proper” so you are not different than slut shamers you just picked a different poison.

    Geez Dogsquat. I think I have fewer pairs of shoes than my husband does (about 3?), and I use exactly two lotion products and zero makeup, so our bathroom countertop is pretty barren.

    The issue hubby has is in invasion is that I have hundreds of hair products for any one here that is not black is probably puzzling but for our hair to look half way decent you need all the help in the world and then some prayers.

  • J

    @SW

    M own sense is that the people avoiding relationships when young and playing the field are going to have higher divorce rates in general, and I think that will be exacerbated according to their level of premarital promiscuity. IOW, sluts marry sluts – I don’t think that’s going to work out too well.

    I think that’s very true of people who avoid relationships but play the field. I think I misunderstood you further upthread. Oddly, I was thinking more about people who avoid relationships and do not play the field at all when I talked about a “critical time frame.” I would assume that some people who fail to launch in their 20s may never launch at all.

    As to whiskey dick, that hadn’t occured to me. I’ve never had that the experience of being with a man who was that drunk. I don’t think that sex was so casual back in our day that people had to be blitzed out of their minds to do it. Some days, I thank God I’m old.

    Did you see this week’s “Girls”? Hannah has an STD check, and the middle-aged female doctor who takes care of her says that she thanks God that she isn’t 24 in today’s SMP. I’m loving the show; it’s such a cautionary tale. If I had a daughter, I’d make her watch it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Did you see this week’s “Girls”? Hannah has an STD check, and the middle-aged female doctor who takes care of her says that she thanks God that she isn’t 24 in today’s SMP. I’m loving the show; it’s such a cautionary tale. If I had a daughter, I’d make her watch it.

      I too am loving it. It portrays (satirizes?) the SMP brilliantly – the most recent episode has an awesome textbook example of Game.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I’m not sure that women set out intentionally to practice serial monogamy. I would assume that most women think that their first love will last forever and then rack up enough second and third tries until they look back and see that what they’ve particpated in has in fact become serial monogamy. Bear in mind that, for many women, that chain of relationships will include incidences of being dumped by guys or having NSA sex with the one-sided assumption that strings are attached.

    Interestingly enough I met a couple of women that are not shy about stating that they can’t stand being with the same guy for more than 3 years I will think they are aware of being serious monogamers. I wonder if they tell them this before they commit,or in the case of the last one marry. I will ask next time…maybe.

  • J

    My experience says emphatically NOT. The only quality men I know of at the age of 25 have had few or ZERO relationships prior to their current one.

    Perhaps this is generational. All the men in my DH’s peer group who hadn’t formed relationships in their 20s are still single in their 50s and rather socially isolated. I can say the same of the “old maids” in my peer group.

    Good to know though. It seems more hopeful than what I’d envisioned.

  • ozymandias

    Esau: Yep. April Fool’s joke. Personally I feel I do a fairly decent Roissy impression, all things considered (although I know I missed a few buzzwords!). Next year I’m thinking radfem.

    And surely there can be people I’m ashamed to be associated with…?

    Dogsquat: There’s actually been a lot of critique around the sex-positive community of the “sex is necessarily awesome” viewpoint: if you’re interested, you might want to check out this post on why sex-positivity is bad for sex workers, or Radtransfem’s writing about sex-negativity. (Although she is a RADICAL feminist, so I doubt most people here would find much to like about her.)

    But yeah. I tend to consider people who take a more nuanced, almost libertarian view of sex to be real sex-pozzies and the rest to, at best, have some growing-up to do.

    Anacaona: Yes, I have standards. My standards are that safe, emotionally healthy, honest, and consensual sex is okay; the forty-year-old dude fucking a fourteen-year-old almost certainly violates #2 and possibly #4 as well (there’s an undue risk of the forty-year-old pressuring the naive fourteen-year-old with his greater life experience and so on). My argument is simply that my standards are better and lead to greater long-run happiness than any other standards that I know about. :)

  • ozymandias

    I can personally testify that there are absolutely lovely gentlemen who would make excellent partners and who haven’t had their first kiss by their early twenties. However, I can also personally testify there are also absolutely lovely gentlemen who would make excellent partners and who have had so much casual sex they are uncertain of their number of actual partners. My anecdata seem to show very little correlation between number of sex partners and quality of person as a partner.

  • J

    @Saay WhatWell I guess that makes me the Champion of champions at the Self-Control Olympics.

    Congrats!!!

    LOL. Then I must have been initial record setter.

    @Dogsquat

    I congratulate on your self-control as well. The proliferation of cosmetics in the master bath at Casa J is a subject of much heated debate and many (empty) threats of simply sweeping the whole lot into the garbage. Hope you do as well with wet lingerie drying on the towel racks.

  • Ian

    This is my main problem with attempts to shame serial monogamy. The average person spends a full 14 years between puberty and marriage. Sex will be had. I argue that sex in the context of a relationship is far preferable to casual sex. Obviously, rapid firing one’s way through tons of relationships is just another form of promiscuity, but I think it’s beneficial for young men and women to gain relationship skills before their late 20s. Of course, guys may prefer to avoid commitment altogether, which is significantly more likely than women avoiding sex altogether.

    Two issues.

    One, if we look at your chart, over the long haul, the “Dates” too are followed by “Dumps”, which blurs things up a bit. Two, doing the math on those sexually active years: a slew of “successful” sexual relationships lasting over a year, a few non-starter relationships, a few mistakes, it’s easy for an N to hit double-digits, especially for an attractive partner.

    If we’re taking the male preference for low N as a biological impetus for paternal investment, those ten sexually active years are the elephant in the room. A 22 year-old who messed around a bit through college is sitting in the same N-chair as a normal 28 year-old monogamist, and sitting in it more fertilely.

    Marriage, I believe, is what we’re talking about, even if it’s grand-motherly uncool to say. To me, dating is the same song as hooking up, played at a different beat. Preferable, but mainly when presented in the dichotomy. There’s also courting, for marriage.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ian

      If we’re taking the male preference for low N as a biological impetus for paternal investment, those ten sexually active years are the elephant in the room. A 22 year-old who messed around a bit through college is sitting in the same N-chair as a normal 28 year-old monogamist, and sitting in it more fertilely.

      While most women never come close to double digits, I think that attractive women who are approached a lot and/or sexually adventurous women are likely to get there. So it is a problem for men who want either for marriage.

      The problem is, there is no plausible strategy for reducing the age at marriage. Most of the writing I’ve seen about this takes a shaming approach to remind women their ovaries are turning into raisins.

      From a female POV, the best strategy is a small number of LTRs, though that’s easier said than done in an SMP where male interest in commitment is low.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Yes, I have standards. My standards are that safe, emotionally healthy, honest, and consensual sex is okay; the forty-year-old dude fucking a fourteen-year-old almost certainly violates #2 and possibly #4 as well (there’s an undue risk of the forty-year-old pressuring the naive fourteen-year-old with his greater life experience and so on).My argument is simply that my standards are better and lead to greater long-run happiness than any other standards that I know about

    Yes because no 14 year old is capable of lying about her age to get that man to bang her without him knowing…get a grip Ozy you are just playing the whole Men are always bad and women are always good in sexual matters that feminists had sold everyone. I personally knew tons of 12 to 14 year olds that will harrass a man with every single weapon their feminine wiles made available to them, regardless of consequences sometimes counting on them to win money, social status and so on… And you know I’m not shy on calling on predatory and Alpha assholes men but I’m fair and not blind to gender.

  • J

    @Ana

    Interestingly enough I met a couple of women that are not shy about stating that they can’t stand being with the same guy for more than 3 years I will think they are aware of being serious monogamers.

    Perhaps this a better example of what intentional serial monogamy is than women who accumulate a number of broken relationships unintentionally. I have the impression that serial monogamy in the ‘sphere has to do with having a number of serious relationships/LTR before marriage no matter how they broke up or what the woman’s intentions were.

  • ExNewYorker

    “When you have NSA sex will you explicitly let the women know that is your intention or will you expect her to correctly quess your intentions, thus becoming part of a “number” that will make her unattractive to guys who feel as you do?”

    Cads, stop making the hookup culture so unfair to women! It’s unfair that you cads are preying on all those poor women!

    It’s always amusing seeing Tradcon women wanting “hookup culture” to be “fair”.

    “I’m not sure that women set out intentionally to practice serial monogamy”.

    http://adweek.blogs.com/.a/6a00d8341c51c053ef014e8706f31d970d-pi

    I’ll have a glass of whatever she’s having :-)

  • J

    I have hundreds of hair products for any one here that is not black is probably puzzling but for our hair to look half way decent you need all the help in the world and then some prayers

    I’m not black, but I love AA hair and skin care products. Shea and cocoa butters are the best moisturizers around!

  • J

    @ENY

    Cads, stop making the hookup culture so unfair to women! It’s unfair that you cads are preying on all those poor women!

    So you’re saying that someone who is going to insist on a certain moral standard from women maintains the right to deceive women?

    If a guy is planning to have NSA sex as INTJ says he, I think he is hypocritical in using women and then judging women who have used. If he’s straight up about it though, let the buyer beware.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @J
    “My guess is that guys would say straight up that it’s NSA don’t get much sex.”

    If you combine honesty before nookie + the absence of alcohol, and probably 90% of NSA sex goes away overnight. From what some of my female friends have told me, guys looking for short-term fun are only up front about it afterwards. I recall GQ advising men to be as vague as possible about their intentions. Equivocation WRT sex is apparently a “manly” trait, or so they say. I seriously doubt the term “gentleman” applies to the magazine anymore. Not that I’m a subscriber : )

  • ExNewYorker

    “If a guy is planning to have NSA sex as INTJ says he, I think he is hypocritical in using women and then judging women who have used.”

    Yes, they are hypocrites, and all the bad stuff you want to say about them. It’s why they’re cads. But they’re a second order effect, not the proximate cause. Attempting to shame the cads into “honorable” behavior is just another form of burying one’s head in the sand, and avoiding dealing with the proximate cause.

    “Perhaps this a better example of what intentional serial monogamy is than women who accumulate a number of broken relationships unintentionally.”

    I’ll have ask my favorite cads if they were being “intentional” cads, or just unintentional cads.

    Since apparently the drink wasn’t strong enough, I’ll have whatever she’s smoking now :-)

  • J

    If you combine honesty before nookie + the absence of alcohol, and probably 90% of NSA sex goes away overnight. From what some of my female friends have told me, guys looking for short-term fun are only up front about it afterwards.

    No surprises there, Megaman.

    I recall GQ advising men to be as vague as possible about their intentions.

    And this, ENY and INTJ, is where my objection lies. If you are having NSA sex with someone who’s DTF with NSA, that’s one thing. But I think those girls are not the norm. If you are lying by omission to someone like Jane in SW’S Tom and Jane story and then have the nerve to be judgmental about the behavior of others, that’s hypocritical and most likely evidence of low character. And, if I had a daughter who was dating a guy who did that, I’d tell her to run for the hills.

  • J

    ENY

    See my post #115. It partially answers your #114. I’m going to bed now.

  • ExNewYorker

    “If you are lying by omission to someone like Jane in SW’S Tom and Jane story and then have the nerve to be judgmental about the behavior of others, that’s hypocritical and most likely evidence of low character.”

    Yes, but so what? They bad cad is still a second order effect. By definition, he’s not going to be shamed into “better” behavior. Incentives drive behavior. The forces that used to police the cads have been dismantled by the same people complaining about the cads.

    “And, if I had a daughter who was dating a guy who did that, I’d tell her to run for the hills.”

    Ah, now you’re dealing with proximate causes. After the last smoke, I was afraid you’d go on to injections :-)

    Looks at Susan’s chart…what you’re trying to do is to make the red boxes into green ones by shaming the cads. But the cads aren’t driving the market!

  • ExNewYorker

    “See my post #115. It partially answers your #114. I’m going to bed now.”

    It doesn’t really, but oh well. I think you and Megaman are basically arguing the following: “Damn you drug dealers for dealing drugs!”, while downplaying the role of those paying exorbitant sums for the drugs…

    Look, I don’t like the cads. While I don’t hate them with the fire of a thousand suns, like Anacaona does, I grew up with a fair number of them around, but it’s pretty clear they are a symptom, and not the cause. You yourself agree with me, in that you’d tell a fictional daughter to run for the hills (thus taking preemptive action, rather than relying on shaming the cad)…you’d be imparting what wiser women used to do in the past, passing their knowledge onto the younger set.

    But that’s not the case these days. Older women don’t give tough love, and younger women don’t want to hear it. Susan is probably one of the few willing to be more on the tough love side of things now.

  • INTJ

    @J

    I’m not sure that women set out intentionally to practice serial monogamy. I would assume that most women think that their first love will last forever and then rack up enough second and third tries until they look back and see that what they’ve particpated in has in fact become serial monogamy. Bear in mind that, for many women, that chain of relationships will include incidences of being dumped by guys or having NSA sex with the one-sided assumption that strings are attached.

    I hold people accountable for their actions, not their intentions. Just cause they’ve lied to themselves or they have the IQ of a toddler doesn’t mean I should accept their actions.

    When you have NSA sex will you explicitly let the women know that is your intention or will you expect her to correctly quess your intentions, thus becoming part of a “number” that will make her unattractive to guys who feel as you do? My guess is that guys would say straight up that it’s NSA don’t get much sex.

    Of course not. It’s unfair enough that guys have to do the approaching. If she doesn’t want NSA sex, it’s her job to ask for a relationship. But I wouldn’t give her any reason to believe I have any non-sexual interest in her.

    So you’re saying that someone who is going to insist on a certain moral standard from women maintains the right to deceive women?

    If a guy is planning to have NSA sex as INTJ says he, I think he is hypocritical in using women and then judging women who have used. If he’s straight up about it though, let the buyer beware.

    I’m not planning to have NSA sex. I’m just being honest with myself that the MMV for men my age is really low, and it’s a possibility that I might get tired of waiting so long to have sex. In which case, I’m going to have NSA sex, because I don’t want to invest emotional energy in a temporary relationship.

    And this, ENY and INTJ, is where my objection lies. If you are having NSA sex with someone who’s DTF with NSA, that’s one thing. But I think those girls are not the norm. If you are lying by omission to someone like Jane in SW’S Tom and Jane story and then have the nerve to be judgmental about the behavior of others, that’s hypocritical and most likely evidence of low character. And, if I had a daughter who was dating a guy who did that, I’d tell her to run for the hills.

    I’m not going to pursue a virgin for several months so I can P&D her if that’s what you’re thinking.

  • Emily

    >> “Perhaps this a better example of what intentional serial monogamy is than women who accumulate a number of broken relationships unintentionally. I have the impression that serial monogamy in the ‘sphere has to do with having a number of serious relationships/LTR before marriage no matter how they broke up or what the woman’s intentions were.”

    Exactly. The sphere often makes it sound like women never get dumped. In my world at least, the LTR dumper/dumpee roles tend to be divided pretty evenly between the sexes.

    And it’s not just young women who are delaying the marriage age. Even most of the religious guys that I know have zero interest in marrying before their late 20s. I’m not blaming the guys either (there are a number of social/economic/cultural factors that cause this), but I also think that a certain amount of “serial monogamy” is pretty inevitable in these circumstances.

  • pvw

    Anacaona:

    The issue hubby has is in invasion is that I have hundreds of hair products for any one here that is not black is probably puzzling but for our hair to look half way decent you need all the help in the world and then some prayers.

    My reply:

    You’re Afro-Latina?

    I burst out laughing at this one, as I think back to the visit Sunday afternoon with the stylist. Two and a half hours each time, I don’t know how she does the miracles she works with a flat iron. I can’t replicate, so I just put it into twists. She is so good, I keep her on my side with loyalty and fantastic tips!

    The hubby just shrugs, “whatever,” at the whole bathroom being taken over with all my stuff. I think he has a mere six inches of space. The same way he takes it in good humor when he thinks about the shopping, the clothes, the shoes. He takes it in stride; it is part of his enjoyment in having a stylish wife–lots of fun watching me play dress up… ; )

  • Lavazza

    Well, any kind of positive message about something temporary is, as well, implicit shaming of people not making best use of it while it lasts. The only fool proof non shaming is erasing all thoughts about temporality and cause/effect.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    Herb, why would you have a stay-at-home wife when you have no kids? Even here, Mormon women work until they get pregnant, then they stay at home after giving birth.

    She was lazy and had a huge sense of entitlement and as someone who believes marriage is a commitment I figured I had to just put up with the consequences of a bad choice.

    She did finally get a full time job, when she decided to leave and saved all she made.

  • Herb

    @Richard

    Among other things, he says wives will run shit tests until the day they die. If you get tired of the conflict, if you don’t know how to manage it, you will, as a poster here said, “beta up”. And then she’s unhappy.

    If that’s true, it’s point #1 and only one needed that marriage is a sucker’s game for men.

    Really, if I wanted to be shit tested every day of my life for the rest of my life I’d just find the crappiest job I could and take it. Then at least I could go home and escape from it.

    That said, you’ve hit the name on one reason I checked out of my marriage. I know a relationship is work, but when it’s just one massive pile of shit that you shovel than go to bed only to find a new one the next day without even a paycheck or a blowjob as a reward, why bother.

  • Herb

    @J

    So you’re saying that someone who is going to insist on a certain moral standard from women maintains the right to deceive women?

    If a guy is planning to have NSA sex as INTJ says he, I think he is hypocritical in using women and then judging women who have used. If he’s straight up about it though, let the buyer beware.

    Helpful hint from a guy: if a guy is trying to have sex the night you meet or on the first date, he’s probably not looking for a relationship.

    If he’s trying to look for sex on the second, ditto.

    If he has the third date rule, 50/50 at best.

    Still, when I’ve told women I had a six week rule more often than not I get shit for it.

    Of course, same women will complain about cads.

    Which gets back to a common refrain from me: what is giving the PUA types a lot of credibility with men is women, as a whole, say one thing and do another and they often want it both ways so a guy can’t win unless he’s a mind reader.

    The entire concept of a shit test is an abstraction of those two things. That enough women do them for nearly every man who learns about them to nod his head in response says something.

    Unlike the many PUAs I don’t think it says as much about an unalterable female nature as our culture has been overly indulgent and failed to raise girls to be adults since the 1980s at least, maybe the 70s. We still do raise boys, although not as well as we did prior to now. More importantly, the failure to do the first right is leading to more and more boys rejecting what little we are teaching them anyway.

  • Herb

    @ExNewYorker

    Yes, but so what? They bad cad is still a second order effect. By definition, he’s not going to be shamed into “better” behavior. Incentives drive behavior. The forces that used to police the cads have been dismantled by the same people complaining about the cads.

    This, a thousand times this…

    The very same sex possies who insist we can’t say anything about the sexual choices of women are at the front of the pack demanding men be whatever the woman in question wants, even if that changes from hour to hour.

    It’s one thing to demand men meet standards and women meet standards. It’s another to say anything except endorsing every choice a woman makes as valid and demand men make only choices women want.

    I realize the average HUS poster is not in that crowd, but that crowd, regardless of how big they are, has set the expectations in the culture. PUAs and other male bad behavior is simply lots of men saying “getting what I want without shame or thoughts of other people is okay too.”

    Until articles about dating are less about what men should do right this minute damnit to make women happy and more about what people need to do to make themselves attractive to their preferred gender, don’t expect it to be any better.

    Seriously, even book proporting to tell women to not be so picky, like Gottlieb’s Marry Him are about trimming your list. At no point does she address what the man might want because apparently men should just be happy you decided to settle for them.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    The problem is, there is no plausible strategy for reducing the age at marriage. Most of the writing I’ve seen about this takes a shaming approach to remind women their ovaries are turning into raisins.

    Sure there is: decide to get married and date only with that intent in mind.

    While we might not be able to change the culture with a lever we encourage individuals to do better. As people see others getting what they want over time they’ll follow suit.

    The fact that everyone, even someone like you who says “when you find someone hold on to them” has given up on actually implementing that advice speaks volumes.

  • Abbot

    “the best strategy is a small number of LTRs, though that’s easier said than done in an SMP where male interest in commitment is low.”
    .
    Precisely because women are not strategically compelling men to commit

  • Abbot

    “People remember, only about 5% of women are considered promiscuous.”
    .
    Dang, people. Of the total fertile female supply, where is this gaggle?
    .
    So all these guys who say all women this, or all women that are so misinformed. 95% of women are just fine,”
    .
    Thus, only non-promisucous women are fine and therefore wife worthy. Misinformed no more!
    .
    fine 1 (fn)
    adj. fin·er, fin·est
    1. excellent or choice in quality; very good of its kind
    .

  • Doc

    I see these morons asking how men can change – my question is why would I want to? I get women pretty much when I want them, and keep the ones that are beneficial and delete the ones that aren’t. If she benefits my life – or provides something I value, I may see her a while. But in the end, I’m not interested in giving her the power to destroy me financially.

    It is that simple. I enjoy women’s company, their bodies, and everything about them individually, or in small groups (2 or 3). But I’m not an idiot and getting into anything long-term is for idiots – at least in the US. Heck, even if I were to shack up, I have to make sure that I terminate it after a year or so due to those “Common Marriage” laws that are out there.

    If women want a relationship, they should be lobbying for the destruction of all of the things the impede relationships, laws about alimony, child support etc. Since that will happen when pigs fly – I will continue as I have, enjoying women and using them for what they can provide to me. Of course, I’m always up front about this, but women always justify that they are “special” – thanks to their fathers for telling them so over and over again. So while you can be honest, they think that they are exempt – they aren’t.

    Nothing is needed on the part of men, other than to enjoy the ride and there are a lot of women to ride.. :)

  • Herb

    @Susan and Abbot

    “the best strategy is a small number of LTRs, though that’s easier said than done in an SMP where male interest in commitment is low.”
    .
    Precisely because women are not strategically compelling men to commit

    I think we’re at the crux of the matter here.

    What value does a modern woman provide in exchange for commitment. Commitment is something that limits the man that the woman wants. What value does she offer up in exchange for it.

    There is more women can offer than sex, but modern women seem uninterested is being:

    1. A housewife
    2. A partner
    3. A supporter

    and they appear to give up sex pretty easily (I know the numbers Susan, hence the appear) and even if they don’t, knowing there is free sex out there makes a man less willing to pay very high prices for it here. Going back to Gottlieb and all the man up articles, I see lots of stuff about men needing to provide this or that to women and women needing to understand the perfect guy isn’t out there.

    But what do women offer men? That question never comes up. Men, as people, seem to rarely come up in discussions about getting them to commit. It’s like men are commitment machines that just aren’t made as well as they used to be made instead of people with needs and wants of their own.

  • Abbot

    ” I’m not an idiot and getting into anything long-term is for idiots – at least in the US”
    .
    and avoiding financial ruin is not the only reason. Heck, you may discover, hopefully very early, that she is so played as to not be worth it

  • Abbot

    “they appear to give up sex pretty easily”
    .
    Welcome to America, one of few places on Earth where women define their effortless “just say yes” fucking around as “a world to explore.” Had enough yet?
    .
    “Calling myself a “slut” is actually coming from a place of freedom, a relationship I needed to escape and a world I need to explore. ”
    .
    http://thegloss.com/sex-and-dating/poll-is-the-term-slut-only-ok-when-referring-to-ourselves-207/comment-page-1/#comment-403805

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I think that sometimes the analysis of behavior of so-called “cads” can be over-determined, in that sometimes promiscuous men really are not sure what they want beyond the obvious initial goals. There are “romantic cads” who enjoy the courtship phase of the relationship and would be open to an LTR, but who simultaneously are self-aware enough to know that they: A) have personalities that really do dislike routine, compromise, and tedium; B) have social skillsets that are heavily weighted towards the earlier attraction/fun-heavy phases of the relationship and less weighted towards the management of a long-term, emotional-steeplechase environment that apparently will feature a parade of endless, rather neurotic tests and a *well-established* time-decay curve revealing ever-diminishing sex frequency/quality; and/or C) genuinely fear the incentives created by a legal contract that gives one party asymmetrical powers of resource extraction.

    Combine A, B, and C with a feminist culture that is consistently saying that any gender differences in sex drive are purely a cultural construct (feminists appear to be almost united in a shared hatred of evo psych) and you have all of the ingredients necessary for a very confusing, perhaps even schizophrenic SMP.

    I do agree that this is not necessarily a landscape that will contribute greatly to the psychological stability of many of the female participants, and IIRC there is substantive work out there revealing that female neuroticism, anxiety, reported life-satisfaction, suicidal ideation, and other aspects of poor mental health will tend to increase with higher sex-partner N counts, while the male psychological battery reveals that guys literally go in the opposite direction and report a greater sense of calm, good humor, general life-satisfaction, etc. as they become sluttier.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bastiat Blogger

      while the male psychological battery reveals that guys literally go in the opposite direction and report a greater sense of calm, good humor, general life-satisfaction, etc. as they become sluttier.

      Really? Do you have any sources? The studies I’ve seen tend to correlate high partner counts for men with an orientation to short-term mating based on personality traits such as narcissism, low agreeableness, and low conscientiousness. I suppose that a person who lacks empathy might be good-humored and satisfied with a promiscuous lifestyle, but I believe men with these traits are commonly believed to be generally unfulfilled due to their lack of emotional capacity.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    “I think you and Megaman are basically arguing the following: ‘Damn you drug dealers for dealing drugs!'”

    Drug dealer/drug addict isn’t a good analogy. I don’t think J was referring to women addicted to hooking up. I couldn’t care less about that clique. The better analogy is parasite/host. Guys who pursue women for NSA sex they know want a relationship. It isn’t simply supply and demand at work, especially when people have to operate under conditions of imperfect information (i.e. emotions, dishonesty). No one’s “running the market” because there’s no collective bargaining going on. Every guy and girl has to look out for himself and herself, and apparently distrust everybody.

    It’s interesting… women seem to have 100% of the responsibility to declare relationship intent before sex, but guys seem to have zero responsibility to declare anything before sex.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Dogsquat, your stories are fine. I was talking about people here in SLC that I have met and known with accident stories. And I’m even in a state that has a lot of non-drinkers due to Mormonism.

    Anacaona, yeah I also have really easy hair. I cut it about once a year for $20 and spend $1 on shampoos and conditioners. I don’t even own a blowdryer. My morning routine takes less than 5 minutes.

    Herb, a woman can offer a lot more besides sex. First few years we were together I financially supported my husband while he went to school. I did and still do the cooking/cleaning/laundry happily. I give him long massages even when I’m pregnant. Also emotional support and not adding to stress because we never fight or argue. We’re best friends that sleep together. Best of all worlds.

  • Abbot

    “female neuroticism, anxiety, reported life-satisfaction, suicidal ideation, and other aspects of poor mental health will tend to increase with higher sex-partner N counts”
    .
    Top that with a large population of men unwilling to commit to members of the N-hopper crowd and what emerges is an army of whiners, aka sex-positive feminists, attempting to shame men into getting on what is now a sinking ship of misery.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Megaman, I think the responsibility does rest 100% on the woman to be vigilant sexual gatekeepers. Men’s job is to chase and express interest, and the woman’s job is to screen and filter out those whose interests do not align with hers. The problem arises when women collectively relinquish the role of sexual gatekeeper.

    Maybe this sounds extreme but I was often skeptical even after the guy declared he was in love with me. I didn’t want to be played for just sex, so I distrusted guys until they proved otherwise. If every woman behaved this way and didn’t open their legs until guys proved they weren’t cads, we wouldn’t be talking about this subject at all.

  • Herb

    @Megaman

    It’s interesting… women seem to have 100% of the responsibility to declare relationship intent before sex, but guys seem to have zero responsibility to declare anything before sex.

    Not quite…people (who tend to be women) have a strong self-interest in ascertaining the other party’s (who tend to be men) intent before giving up sex.

    If I’m looking for a car, does the seller have a responsibility to be upfront in revealing the condition of the vehicle? Yes. Do I have a responsibility to verify the condition of the vehicle? Yes. Does a responsible person have different levels of verification depending on who is selling the car? Yes.

    Women who assume a guy pushing for sex at the first meeting or date is going to be interested in a relationship are being stupid. That doesn’t excuse the guys lack of openness but if women are adults then I’ll treat them the same way I got treated when I got screwed on a used car: my friends had sympathy but also said, “so are you going to log in and check emissions status if they don’t have the paperwork”

    If we’re going to treat women whose number is 2-3 where all but one are LTR and one is a PUA as victims, I’m down with that.

    If we’re going to treat women whose number is 6-7 with one LTR and the rest PUAs as victims, count me out. Once, maaaaybe twice, isn’t their fault. After that, it’s either they’re children or willfully failing to learn or did it knowingly and didn’t care but now want to change to something less unfavorable to them.

  • Abbot

    “If every woman behaved this way and didn’t open their legs until guys proved they weren’t cads, we wouldn’t be talking about this subject at all.”
    .
    But now, in certain locations, the cad/pill culture has women reaching for terms like “exploration” and “embracing” and other desperate measures that
    .
    are. not. working.
    .
    Women are not making guys [er, the harem leaders] wait because they won’t get access to what has become very very easy to obtain gratification. Its an addiction. With a price. There are a lot more alcoholics than cocaine addicts mainly because alcohol is abundant, legal and cheap.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    Herb, a woman can offer a lot more besides sex. First few years we were together I financially supported my husband while he went to school. I did and still do the cooking/cleaning/laundry happily. I give him long massages even when I’m pregnant. Also emotional support and not adding to stress because we never fight or argue. We’re best friends that sleep together. Best of all worlds.

    So, you’re a willing tool of the patriarchy ;)

    On a more serious note, the culture at large tells us all those are bad. How often do news articles dump on men for women having to do a “second shift” of housework when they get home, ie: keeping house isn’t something a woman should offer. In the broader culture men give massages, not women (as I understand it, it’s a PUA skill too). As for emotional support instead of stress, see shit tests and the common trope (since at least the early 90s and one my ex-wife believed whole heartedly) that the man should appologize after any fight, regardless of who was wrong.

    I know women can have a lot to offer, but our broader culture, including most advice about dating or attracting men, tells women those things are beneath them, men should love them for who they are (true in one way, but ignoring what men want in another) , and tells them they entitled to a man on their schedule (see how many Kate Bollick like articles talk about the expectation men would just be there at 30 when they were ready).

    I actually don’t blame women younger than me for not knowing what men might want and having cultivated some of those things (not all, but those most congruent with who she is). We’ve taught them the opposite. The only thing we’ve taught them men want is sex, so that’s all they have to offer.

    Then, these women want a husband and can’t figure out why they can’t get men to commit. They’re offering sex, which is what men want. There is clearly nothing wrong with them, as they did everything they were told would attract men.

    Sound familiar? It should because our culture lies to young women about men need and want just as much as it does to young men. That we don’t have CA, commitment artists, yet is surprising. It’s only a matter of time.

  • J

    @ENY

    I’m not going to spend the day going back and forth with you if you are going to argue in stereotypes (labeling me a Tradcon) or ad homs (jokes about what I’m high on), but I will respond to the point below because it deals with a meme that I just don’t see as true.

    Looks at Susan’s chart…what you’re trying to do is to make the red boxes into green ones by shaming the cads. But the cads aren’t driving the market!

    The notion in the ‘sphere is that women are the gatekeepers and that all that is wrong with the current SMP lies at their feet. But is often ignored is that men have a very powerful bargaining chip in that they are the “gatekeepers” to relationships and commitment. As Emily says in post #119, “Even most of the religious guys that I know have zero interest in marrying before their late 20s. I’m not blaming the guys either (there are a number of social/economic/cultural factors that cause this), but I also think that a certain amount of “serial monogamy” is pretty inevitable in these circumstances. ” This is exactly what “drives the market.”

    What Emily describes is consonant with what the women young I know tell me. That means as a society we either have to expect that people in their sexual prime are going forego relationships until they are close to 30 or that we are going to expect all relationships to be platonic. Nice girls will simply snap their legs shut and ignore that girls are who do put out get some semblance of a relationship while they get nothing. It’s just not going to happen it, and there are men who know and take advantage of it.

    Susan’s graph (and the Karen Owens story BTW) illustrates just how much abuse the women in the upper levels of promiscuity will suffer in order to get the attention of “alphas” with whom they are dumb enough to think they can form relationships with by out-competing the other “sluts.” Nevertheless, even for those girls, the drive is to form a relationship.

    But there is a whole group on campus that is being ignored in these discussions which is the “beta” track of kids who don’t “hook up” but who do find bfs/gfs in college and even establish what I sometimes call “college marriages.” I’ve even seen a number of my friends’ kids form these monogamous relationships that continue until graduation splits them up. One partner may go on to grad school in one city, while the other finds work in another or goes home to parents. There is often a failed attempt at a long distance relation, but for a lot of girls (and guys too) this is the beginning of a chain of serial monogamy where there is a grad school SO, a first job SO, etc. until social and economic conditions finally favor settling down as a young married. While as a parent I don’t think this is ideal, I do think it’s tons better than whoring around.

    Is it better than celibacy until marriage? I just don’t think that it’s realistic for a society to expect that most people, male or female, will not attempt to fulfill, not just their sexual needs, but their need for love and companionship. Aside fom the crushing loneliness that comes from not having a relationship, there is an opportunity cost to the gamma/omega kids that don’t compete at all.

    While I would prefer to see my own sons “settled” by 25, I would find it hard to condemn them or any girls they associated with for not waiting till marriage at 30. If a person is so constituted to do that, that’s fine with me, but the folks I know how have put off relationships till after 30 AND then go on to healthy marriages are few and far between. I know two women who did so. One is Ana; the other is a former nun who was laicized at 32. She actually “picked up” her husband, a former priest, in the Vatican office building where the process of being released from vows takes place. The rest of the 30 year old virgins I’ve known, both male and female, are still virgins to the best of my knowledge. I assume that most of them were sort asexual even to begin with.

    At any rate, most people are not going to be shamed into turning back the clock to what some immagine to have been the dating scene of the 1950s (when believe or nor there was still premarital sex, illegitimacy, etc). I hope we do eventually get back to a saner SMP, but shaming and/or taking advantage of people is not what will get us there. Changing the social and economic conditions (which in my opinion are broader than the SMP) that have extended adolescence till 30 is the place to start.

    I’ve spent 45 minutes writng this, so I’ll stop here.

  • Herb

    @J

    At any rate, most people are not going to be shamed into turning back the clock to what some immagine to have been the dating scene of the 1950s (when believe or nor there was still premarital sex, illegitimacy, etc).

    While I’m well aware there was premarital sex and illegitimacy back then there was one difference: it wasn’t considered acceptable or even just an alternate lifestyle to the nuclear family.

    I have a half-sister who I didn’t know about until I was almost 30 when I had to get out my birth certificate and noticed it listed me as my mother’s second live birth (which tells how long ago I was born) and I asked.

    When my half-sister was born my mother had been teaching (she was a teacher) at a home for wayward girls because despite how much my grandparents wanted to support her they didn’t want to endorse the behavior in front of my then teen-aged aunt.

    Today, it’s okay and even celebrated.

    The notion in the ‘sphere is that women are the gatekeepers and that all that is wrong with the current SMP lies at their feet. But is often ignored is that men have a very powerful bargaining chip in that they are the “gatekeepers” to relationships and commitment.

    How many men are selling relationships without sex? How many women are selling sex without relationships? If women are willing to give up their trump without insisting men do so as well, they will get sold short. That might not be right, but it’s reality.

    If women decided even after marriage to be chaste, on the whole, would you say it wasn’t men’s fault if they still married them and wondered where the sex was?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Herb, our generation is already backlashing against those cultural messages because of the Internet. Women in our age group can read and talk anonymously online and find out what the real deal is. The mainstream culture at large has no significant sway over online postings.

    I remember a Craigslist response that went viral which encapsulated a lot of red pill ideas. This was pre-Roissy days, circa 2005-2006. Now this kind of thing is even easier to find. I certainly did, and I know a lot of other young women are finding it in their teens and 20s.

    It would be good if these messages got out there even more. Personally I think that young people are inherently curious and want to know what’s “counter-cultural” and “different,” and they’re going to be drawn to this stuff. The culture is shifting; it is not static. The newer generations are different, partially because of more economic instability, and partially because the truth is getting out there.

  • Abbot

    “The notion in the ‘sphere is that women are the gatekeepers and that all that is wrong with the current SMP lies at their feet. But is often ignored is that men have a very powerful bargaining chip in that they are the “gatekeepers” to relationships and commitment”
    .
    When women behaved more like gatekeepers in the West [most in the world still do] there were still problems but it was MUCH better for men as a whole.
    .
    “most people are not going to be shamed into turning back the clock to what some imagine to have been the dating scene of the 1950s”
    .
    most “women” are not going to be shamed into turning back the clock to what some imagine to have been the dating scene of the 1950s…because they are having a blast taking advantage of the clear fact that men are always willing. Therefore women have enabled the current HMP. Yes, HMP. It does not mean they are wrong or bad but it does mean that men [the majority of men] who are left out should not be shamed for deciding to avoid such women for commitment.
    .
    Is this any clearer now?

  • J

    @Herb

    Still, when I’ve told women I had a six week rule more often than not I get shit for it.

    That’s sad, but I think there are still women out there who would really appreciate you. My DH and I waited months to have sex, both of us, intentionally, because we didn’t want to complicate what we both thought was going to lead to marriage.

    Sure there is: decide to get married and date only with that intent in mind.

    LOL. That’s great advice Herb, but I have actually only witnessed it happening as the norm in one American subculture–Hasidic Jews. There is an enclave of them near me. There is zero recreational dating. A limited dating process, supervised by parents and coordinated by matchmakers, occurs only when the guys are employed and the girls are ready for marriage (sometimes after completing a bachelor’s in a field that will make them employable in a way that will benefit a large family). Everyone is a virgin at 21–even the guys–and married at 22. No cads, no sluts, lots of big, happy families. While I imagine that the Amish, some Indian immigrants and some fundy Christians like the Duggars have something similar, modern mainstream Americans have never and will never lived like that.

    It’s not a bad way to live. I admire it actually. I just don’t know how people who are not insulated from mainstream American can manage it.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    It would be good if these messages got out there even more. Personally I think that young people are inherently curious and want to know what’s “counter-cultural” and “different,” and they’re going to be drawn to this stuff. The culture is shifting; it is not static. The newer generations are different, partially because of more economic instability, and partially because the truth is getting out there.

    I hope so…I’ve been waiting a long time for rebels to be men with short hair wearing their tee shirt (which is plain) under a sports or dress shirt and shoes other than sneakers and ladies in dresses or skirts and blouses who go on dates with each other and while they do make out a bit aren’t having sex because that’s something you do inside a committed relationship where they aim at having their first child after they get married.

  • Mike C

    I’m loving the show; it’s such a cautionary tale. ****If I had a daughter, I’d make her watch****

    @J

    I’m curious….so I hope you will indulge me. You are a quite active commenter, and clearly the “sphere” interests you at least in an academic sense. I can recall when you commented actively over at Dalrock. Given all of that, I would assume you are also aware of the issues men face in the current SMP as well. IIRC, you have a son and/or sons. So I’m curious what advice/conversations you’ve had with them?

    I may be wrong on this point, but I’ve gleaned this from bits and pieces here and there but I always get the sense especially with Boomer mothers with late teen, early to mid 20s children that the daughters seem to be foremost on their minds while the sons generally seem to be afterthoughts. Almost a sort of “we really got to look after the daughters sentiment, but don’t worry about the sons…they’ll figure it out and be OK”.

    Here is one point I don’t think some of the women grok concerning serial monogamy. If a “committed relationships” is really nothing more than a temporary placeholder relationship in a sequence of relationships with ZERO chance of being permanent to semi-permanent, than for many men that prospect isnt’ going to hold much interest. Another commenter highlighted that point in not wanting “to waste emotional energy” in something that is going to be temporary anyways. I think many guys are either going to want to “lock it down” with “THE GIRL” or keep things totally casual. I don’t think the prospect of an emotional entanglement with some undefined expiration date in the future holds much appeal. In other words, if a “relationship” is really just about constructing some framework for meeting sexual desires/needs until some marriage way down the line to some different guy, then I suspect many guys would be like “why bother”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      In other words, if a “relationship” is really just about constructing some framework for meeting sexual desires/needs until some marriage way down the line to some different guy, then I suspect many guys would be like “why bother”.

      First, I don’t think 20 yo guys think that way, nor do the girls they’re getting with. When they do fall in love, they tend to think in terms of “forever.” I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard college kids swear up and down they’re going to marry down the road. Of course, that’s a very long time – as J said, many get split up geographically after college – most likely they aren’t from the same place to begin with. Those who go on to grad school must move again. There are tremendous obstacles to early marriage in place.

      Second, most guys will spend 10 years between high school graduation and marriage. Very few are going to have the ability to pull women for casual sex during that time. Even guys here like Jason and Zach confess they got to the point where the casual routine became tedious, and they got into LTRs within a year of graduating college. I doubt anyone believes those LTRs are going to result in marriage.

      For most guys, though, being in a LTR is going to be more rewarding both emotionally and physically than hanging with the guys 100% of the time, hoping to get lucky in a bar.

  • J

    @INTJ

    Thanks for your response. I’m glad to have you clarify what you meant as opposed to having others jump in on your behalf. I’m glad to see that you plan on operating within some moral strictures. While I hate to see you or any young man be a chump, I also hate to see guys act as victimizers of the naive and inexperienced. There’s a sane middle ground that’s often hard to find.

  • Abbot

    ” if a “relationship” is really just about constructing some framework for meeting sexual desires/needs until some marriage way down the line to some different guy, then I suspect many guys would be like “why bother”.”
    .
    Isn’t this the “message” that guys are getting from all those feminist diatribes, claims of embracing / expressing, slut pride and the like? Are women now marked as guilty until proven otherwise?

  • pvw

    Herb:

    I actually don’t blame women younger than me for not knowing what men might want and having cultivated some of those things (not all, but those most congruent with who she is). We’ve taught them the opposite. The only thing we’ve taught them men want is sex, so that’s all they have to offer.

    Then, these women want a husband and can’t figure out why they can’t get men to commit. They’re offering sex, which is what men want. There is clearly nothing wrong with them, as they did everything they were told would attract men.

    J:

    But is often ignored is that men have a very powerful bargaining chip in that they are the “gatekeepers” to relationships and commitment.

    My reply:

    Interesting observations. So if men teach women that all they want is sex, how do they respond then to those young women who prove that they have more depth, that they offer more than sex?

    If they are not commitment minded, and we know men can afford to be in this SMP, they just continue looking for sex for as long as they want.

    Drawing upon conversations with younger female relatives who are still single, and even recalling years ago when I was dating, on the other hand, there are men who seem to pull the “LJBF” thing just as easily as women.

    They need not be explicit about it, and that might not even be their intention, but from a certain female perspective, that might seem to be the case when they act as though they are interested in dating but don’t escalate in a way that indicates they want something more than sex, even when there are IOIs from the woman.

    Now one can argue that this can be a signal of male betatude; if it is, the development of “inner game” might very well be necessary.

    Add in those men who treat women like pals, ie., talking about other women they are seeing or even having sex with or whom they are attracted to. Thus, it is easy for them to fall into the LJBF category, either by their own design or from the woman’s perspective.

    A thinking woman might say to herself, hmm, he talks about other women, even though he has invited me out for drinks or dinner. He is paying, so it seems like a date. But if he is interested in dating, he is not initiating a conversation it; the appearance is there, but without the substance. She might wonder, is he trying to warn me off that he is not interested in me? Does he expect me to try and compete with those other woman and hop into bed? But that is not how I am. Okay, so I’ll put him in the LJBF category, not only is that the safest, it must be what he wants….

  • Herb

    @J

    LOL. That’s great advice Herb, but I have actually only witnessed it happening as the norm in one American subculture–Hasidic Jews.

    Years ago (and we’re talking a decade plus) I read this: http://www.torah.org/features/wperspective/cosmogirl.html

    It inspired me enough that I have notes for a novel about a gentile clarinet player who is in a Klezmer band (if you’re a clarinetist and serious as a youth you’ll develop a taste for Klezmer, as it’s the one place you’re the lead instrument) who meets a Orthodox woman and begins to convert to marry her (and never touches her in the mean time). Riffing off an even older Eight is Enough Valentines Day episode he becomes closer to God in the process but realizes his long nominal Christianity is what is becoming real instead of his Jewish goal. In the end he gives up the girl (but not the Klezmer band, priorities after all ;) ) for God.

    Now if I just had the discipline to write it. Maybe it could be the next 50 Shades of Grey on the Kindle :)

  • Tom

    No Ted, fuck you. My comments were not aimed at you or anyone elsehere. I have seen several of my buddies marry in hopes of getting their wife to treat them like a child. Ive witnessed them sitting in their lazy boy and telling the wife to get up and make them a sandwich, or get them a beer. Total bullshit and those guys ARE devorced.
    As for insults, I could insult you, but I wont. Fuck you and the rest of the morons here who think I might be a woman.
    Now back to your original programming…lol

  • J

    @Mike C

    Given all of that, I would assume you are also aware of the issues men face in the current SMP as well. IIRC, you have a son and/or sons. So I’m curious what advice/conversations you’ve had with them?

    Two sons, no daughters. Sexual conversations with me are somewhat hard to have as they are more embarrassed with me than with their dad. The basic shape of all our advice though is “Don’t be prick; don’t be a chump.” In a more general sense, I’d like to think we’ve raise our boys with a sense of honesty, integrity and morality, as well as with some self-esteem that will enable them to avoid the pitfalls of the current SMP and seek out quality women, but who knows. So far, they have selected themselves into some pretty decent peers groups, so I feel confident. My goal has been to raise good, but not naive, kids. You do your best with kids and then hope for the best when you turn them loose on the world. We’ll see what happens, and be there for them if they screw up.

    I may be wrong on this point, but I’ve gleaned this from bits and pieces here and there but I always get the sense especially with Boomer mothers with late teen, early to mid 20s children that the daughters seem to be foremost on their minds while the sons generally seem to be afterthoughts.

    I think it’s more that mothers were once girls and understand the problems girls face. Dealing with boys and their feelings has been an education for me.

    Almost a sort of “we really got to look after the daughters sentiment, but don’t worry about the sons…they’ll figure it out and be OK”.

    Perhaps because boys face fewer physical perils. If I had a daughter, I’d worry about pregnancy, rape, etc. With boys, I worry about “where they put their dicks” and what sorts of long-lasting consequences can arise from that. On a more humorous note, I recently made the boys watch “Teen Mom” with me. When it was over, I asked, “What did we learn from this?” They answered, because it’s almost a family joke, “Be careful where you put your dick.”

    Here is one point I don’t think some of the women grok concerning serial monogamy. …then I suspect many guys would be like “why bother”.

    I understand what you are saying, but I do see young men involved in serial monogamy. There are young men who want a steady girl as opposed to being constantly on the chase. My own DH had a pattern, before we met, of relationships that lasted between 1-5 years and few ONS. In most cases, he thought those relationships were evolving towards more, though the first lasted from junior year of high school until junior year of college and in retrospect was unlikely to lead to marriage. I would suspect that most of the woman involved expected marriage.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    pvw, why doesn’t the girl in that scenario just ask? That’s what I did. A few time I asked, the guy was interested in me romantically. A few times, no such interest. Open and honest communication is not rocket science. I didn’t get to a single relationship without it.

    I always told every single guy I talked to, almost word for word: “I am looking for love. I don’t have sex without love.” It never fazed the ones who were also looking for love. Several times I heard from guys, “You’re possibly even more of a romantic than me.” I thought that was a nice compliment.

    Now why did these relationships end? Sometimes people are just not very compatible, and a lifelong marriage would not be good. I could be the exact same me right now and still not be able to get along with an INTJ or ESTP guy. I’m an INFJ, and even though I can “get along” with most types, I prefer other NFs in more intimate interactions.

  • Tom

    Ozy
    Of course relationships break up for lots of reasons. Abuse, neglect, apthy, weight gain, cheating, bad sex, money problems, lack of communication etc. The list just goes on and on. Women seem to be the ones who file for divorce the most. Most of the divorces I have witnessed, where I know both parties involved, it was normally my buddy who was at fault, for some of the reasons I just listed.
    Sure women are at fault a lot of the time also. However most men do not know how to treat women, especially in a relationship. They do the things that cause resentment in women, normally without even knowing they are doing so.

    Herb. Thanks of not accusing me of riding side saddle…lmao.

  • Tom

    @ Abbott
    Folks, try to remember why this person posts. There is an agenda there and its nothing personal, really
    _______
    Right back at cha macho man

  • J

    Nice link and nice idea for a novel. I’d read it; you should write it.

    My DH BTW has been the only gentile member of a Klezmer band (clarinet and violin) and the only non-Irish member of a Pogues cover band (violin and concertina).

  • J

    OK guys and gals, I know there are comments I’ve not responded to, but I’ve got to accomplish more today than sitting at the computer screen. My apologies to anyone I’ve ignored.

  • Herb

    @Tom
    Herb. Thanks of not accusing me of riding side saddle…lmao.

    I assume people aren’t faking gender in most environments on the internet (chat environments I assume women looking to chat dirty are men, however).

    The larger point is the main cultural meme is women seek divorce because men cheat or are children. The idea that a man is wronged in a divorce that doesn’t involve a Kardashian is alien to the culture.

    So when you decide to bring that meme here you’re going to get pushback.

    Hell, our marriage councilor openly took my side…how often does that happen (I’d love to go back and ask what she thought of Game).

  • Herb

    @pvw

    Interesting observations. So if men teach women that all they want is sex, how do they respond then to those young women who prove that they have more depth, that they offer more than sex?

    I was thinking less of men in the SMP and more the broad cultural training prior to a woman even entering the SMP. She enters the SMP with that assumption in place. Women my age even entered having learned a one night stand after meeting a day or two earlier lead to Happily Ever After, especially if she watched The Love Boat :).

    Do men in the SMP reinforce that? Yes, but at that point I think we’re looking at more complex interactions and feedback. Even men who aren’t, in particular, just about sex are bound to learn that the most common thing women provide is sex in our current culture both in positive (friends are getting laid) and negative (shit tests, flake outs) ways.

    I will say this in defense of women on flake outs, it’s just a dating specific version of a broader cultural phenomena which Miss Manners covered years ago. She argued people have become more likely to not honor commitments resulting in fewer people willing to host events. Flaking out is the dating version. The response from the hosts in dating is left as an exercise from the reader.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Mike C, I don’t think most people approach relationships that way. Most people aren’t thinking about it as a temporary arrangement. Young people fall in love, and that compels them to want to be together. I’ve also seen failed relationships where only one party (whether male or female) was in love, which dooms it.

    So the reason why young people would “bother” is because it’s not about the physical stuff alone. Young love does have a lot of opportunities for things going wrong, kids being overly dramatic, impulsive, immature, and not very self-aware. Plus they’re just starting to discover themselves and develop their identities. Thus these relationships tend not to last forever.

    There are people who get married to their high school or college sweethearts. I think that is the cultural romantic narrative many young people look to, and there is definitely an element of idealism associated with these early relationships. These “lost loves” can even disrupt or wreck marriages and families later as people get re-acquainted with someone from their past, so they’re not as “transient” as one might think.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sticky-bonds/201110/my-research-12-facts-about-lost-love-reunions

  • Tom

    Herb, I agree with what you say. No matter whos fault, we are the ones who get screwed, in most cases.
    Until I came here I never even thought about a prenup. My daughter is grown, so I dont have to worry about any future child support. Allimony and my losing a portion of my assets could be a possibility, however.
    Most of my friends, in Ohio, went the way of disolution, where everything is agreed upon when they split. But I am guessing if certian women feel they have something to gain, they would not allow that route.
    I may get married this summer, lots of issues to discuss, one being a prenup. One never goes into a relationship or marriage thinking it may disolve, but in these times………….

  • Ian

    @Susan

    While most women never come close to double digits, I think that attractive women who are approached a lot and/or sexually adventurous women are likely to get there. So it is a problem for men who want either for marriage.

    From a female POV, the best strategy is a small number of LTRs, though that’s easier said than done in an SMP where male interest in commitment is low.

    I’d argue that the optimal female strategy is to negotiate the Biggest Deal while their leverage was highest > while beauty is highest and N is lowest > two trends that happily coincide at a particular period in life…six years before the average American age of marriage, at this moment in history.

    I used to argue with my young male friends, though I’m sure it’s similar for females, who said they didn’t want to marry. Ask them if they want to marry, they say no. I’d ask them if they’d marry a particular absurdly high-value woman, whatever version of Kate Upton, they’d say yes.

    The rub is that, as a woman ages and N’s, she migrates further from Upton. Men’s distaste for marriage, is at least in part a distaste for marriage with current partners’ SMV; ages, weights, habits, and N’s.

    If a “committed relationships” is really nothing more than a temporary placeholder relationship in a sequence of relationships with ZERO chance of being permanent to semi-permanent, than for many men that prospect isnt’ going to hold much interest. Another commenter highlighted that point in not wanting “to waste emotional energy” in something that is going to be temporary anyways. I think many guys are either going to want to “lock it down” with “THE GIRL” or keep things totally casual.

    This. I’m an outlier, but I’ve dumped several marry-someday partners for that perspective. To kill the dead horse, it’s telling me that I’m not her Upton, and I’m wasting my investment. Dating, to me, is screening for marriage, and I don’t offer monogamy otherwise.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ian

      while beauty is highest and N is lowest > two trends that happily coincide at a particular period in life…six years before the average American age of marriage, at this moment in history.

      That’s 22 for a woman. From cap and gown to bridal gown. That is just not going to happen. I wouldn’t even want it for my daughter. You have every right to aim for that, of course, but I believe the pool of women seeking that timeline will be small.

      For one thing, hookup culture is pervasive in college, and I’d say no more than 2-5% of students get together with an eye toward marrying upon graduation. Most women won’t even go on a date until after they’ve graduated. Assume it may take a while to find their future spouse, and they’re in their mid-20s, at least, which I do think is a good time to get married. To each his own, but that average age isn’t coming down any time soon.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    Mike C, I don’t think most people approach relationships that way. Most people aren’t thinking about it as a temporary arrangement.

    I don’t know…I had a revelation the other day that one thing that is disappointing with my gf is the sense that there is not even the idea that we’re working towards a permanent relationship. I’m not saying she’s planning to escape or dump me or anything but there is, well just a sense things are what they are and one day might not be.

    Commitment, the idea that we might decide to be together for the rest of our lives (for me, probably 25 years tops as it is) is not anywhere and seems almost alien. This is pretty much what I’ve encountered since I got divorced with one exception. That was a woman who wasn’t interested in marriage and was upfront about it. Driving back from Christmas Eve at her parents she said, “I never really thought seriously about marriage before you”.

    Eight days later, on New Years Day, I was out the door.

    In fact, my believe women want commitment seems as much a leap of faith anymore as empirical reality. If most women just want to “fun date” in their 20s without offering commitment I suspect men will have one of two responses: “not interested” or “okay, so women just want sex too”. The problem is when the magic 30 happens and “we’ve arrived at the top of the staircase, finally ready to start our lives” the men have learned what women want and changing that 180 degrees gets hard. The men who wanted it at 25 found a woman who did. The men who did and didn’t were “you know, the ones you don’t want to go out with.”

    If women want husbands they need to look for husbands. Right now, we’re raising more MGTOW and cads than husbands. The smart girls land them early.

  • ozymandias

    Anacaona: Um, no, I have equal concerns re: consent and emotional health about forty-year-old women sleeping with fourteen-year-olds. Fourteen-year-olds are, in general, not capable of having emotionally healthy relationships with adults, no matter what they think about it at the time; their brains aren’t developed yet, the adult always has greater power, and those can and almost always do form deeply unhealthy relationships. They are not allowed to make their own decisions about this, for much the same reason that they’re not allowed to make their own decisions about going to school, drinking, etc.

    ExNewYorker: I think that it’s unethical to lie about your intentions either way. If you want a relationship, it is highly unethical and a bad idea to claim you only want casual sex; if you want casual sex, it is highly unethical and a bad idea to claim you only want a relationship. I remain vaguely puzzled that there are people who don’t talk about this before they fuck, but assume it is somewhat related to the “having sex while drunk” thing.

    Mike C: Um, I am fairly certain that most people find romantic love enjoyable and hence would like to have it even if they aren’t going to be together forever. Not to mention companionship, emotional support, and even just plain friendship. There’s lots of reasons why someone might want a relationship between lifelong commitment and a fuckbuddy.

    Tom: You got a study or something to back up “divorce is always men’s fault”? That’s an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    You’re Afro-Latina?
    I keep forgetting that is not obvious in pics but yes I’m 70% black.

    I burst out laughing at this one, as I think back to the visit Sunday afternoon with the stylist. Two and a half hours each time, I don’t know how she does the miracles she works with a flat iron. I can’t replicate, so I just put it into twists. She is so good, I keep her on my side with loyalty and fantastic tips!

    Pfft I spent four hours at the beauty parlor. I’m not kidding about the prayers and then the hair looks nice for 10 days and less. Nightmare hair.

    The hubby just shrugs, “whatever,” at the whole bathroom being taken over with all my stuff. I think he has a mere six inches of space. The same way he takes it in good humor when he thinks about the shopping, the clothes, the shoes. He takes it in stride; it is part of his enjoyment in having a stylish wife–lots of fun watching me play dress up… ; )

    I actually don’t shop for anything unless I broke whatever I have or like in pregnancy I can’t fit in it no matter how hard I try, cheap bitch, so hair products and plastic bags are his only concern

    Anacaona, yeah I also have really easy hair. I cut it about once a year for $20 and spend $1 on shampoos and conditioners. I don’t even own a blowdryer. My morning routine takes less than 5 minutes.

    If you weren’t the mother of my unborn child’s spouse I will kill you for this, lucky girl :p

    If every woman behaved this way and didn’t open their legs until guys proved they weren’t cads, we wouldn’t be talking about this subject at all.

    ITA. When waiting a few dates to find out a “guy’s intentions” became so hard? Is not like you can read men’s mind or bend them to your will….

    @J
    Actually all my closest friends (a dozen that I’m sure off double that that I heard of but have no proof) were virgins till they were in the preparing the wedding process. In fact any Dominican woman that is on college and doesn’t have a child has almost a 90% chance of being a virgin still and we are not shy in bed or hate sex trust me on that ;). I think that hard part is not biological but cultural sex positive people had spent decades making virginity and abstinence look like some symptom of something bad going on in a person (too religious, s so of course is harder for people to keep it, everyone wants to be normal and be “good at sex” adding the “dating is for fun, commitment is for old people” and you find a lot of issues with people waiting, YMMV.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    They are not allowed to make their own decisions about this, for much the same reason that they’re not allowed to make their own decisions about going to school, drinking, etc.

    ??? but you say that if she wanted to have sex with other 14 years old it would okay? How that works? How can you filter one attraction trigger? If all a person needs to get laid is being horny? Also the age of consent in Europe and many other countries is 13 so…

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    Not sure if this was intentional. How appropriate of you to post this heading into one of the biggest, most crunktastic drinking and partying weekends of the season. Happy Cinco, people!

    @Mike C
    Your comment about serial monogamy was pretty dead on. The way I see it, the way some women go about serial monogamy, it’s the female way to get laid regularly before you get married without being called out. And you know what, I’m not mad at ‘em one bit. Everyone has needs, and nobody wants to be alone just because, especially women. I think they need companionship more than men do on some level.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BroHamlet

      Not sure if this was intentional. How appropriate of you to post this heading into one of the biggest, most crunktastic drinking and partying weekends of the season. Happy Cinco, people!

      Haha, it’s pure coincidence. I think my recent consulting work has me thinking in Power Point slides again – goes with the territory.

      I lived at the beach in LA during my early 20s – the best place north of the Rio Grande for celebrating Cinco de Mayo. Maybe even better, what with the frozen margaritas and all.

  • Herb

    @ozymandias

    Um, I am fairly certain that most people find romantic love enjoyable and hence would like to have it even if they aren’t going to be together forever.

    Until you’ve broken up from romantic love being temporary a few times. The reward/cost cycle starts to look unfriendly after a while.

    I think at least a few of the poly people I know are poly in reaction to that: less investment or hope therefore less hurt. I know my openness to dating poly is related to giving up on permanent love.

    @Ana

    ITA. When waiting a few dates to find out a “guy’s intentions” became so hard? Is not like you can read men’s mind or bend them to your will….

    Haven’t you learned anything from feminism? Women are fully formed people just like men capable of making choices and controlling themselves so they can do…

    Oh, wait, you mean women post feminine are less able to say ‘no’ to sex? Interesting.

  • Ted D

    Tom – I know the comment wasn’t directed AT me, but you can’t deny that your statement was a blatant attempt to put blame at men’s feet. Perhaps the “lazy boy” is a construct of younger generations than mine, but I know very few men that are a waste of life and flesh. Perhaps I simply ignore them if they exist around me.

    If you know lots of lazy men, I’d say it is selection bias, but maybe I’m the one biased. I’ll readily admit that I don’t like “people”, so I probably blow off lazy/unmotivated people WAY before I realize they are lazy and unmotivated.

    Or perhaps you are trying to describe a “mama’s boy”? I’ve only known one of those my entire life, and it was only because he was family that I tolerated him at all. I wouldn’t say he was lazy though, he simply believed that his wife’s job was to serve him. Shit, now that I think on it, in many ways he appeared to be pretty damned alpha, but I just assumed it was because he was self-centered and selfish.

    Now regarding men not knowing how to treat women, I can’t argue with that. But, I would like to point out that traditionally when such a comment is made, it is usually implied that by “how to treat women” what is really meant is the man in question is an asshole, mean, abusive, etc. In your own statement you described a man that wasn’t meeting his mates needs, which is the same kind of statement. In fact, many men simply don’t know how to effectively interact with the women in their lives. They may treat them like a princess, but that is exactly NOT what they should be doing. I never treated my ex-wife badly, but if I would have we might still be married.

    And who’s fault is that? I learned how to interact with women from my mother, grandmother, and other female family. I listened to what they said and believed it to be true, even as I got older and saw with my own eyes that their instructions didn’t make sense. I was told repeatedly that the girls who like “bad boys” are broken, or too young to know “what they really want”, and encouraged to continue being “nice” and “myself”. My grandfather was the only male role model I consistently had growing up, and I was told often about how inconsiderate, uncaring, and mean he was. What I know now is: he was just being a man. What I used to think was a lack of caring on his part was dead wrong. What I was told was him being mean was simply him setting boundaries and expecting them to be kept. But I was told repeatedly to ALWAYS consider what my wife wants, ALWAYS listen to what she says, and ALWAYS do my best to make her happy. All. Completely. Wrong.

    So Tom, how about you cut your brothers a little slack. If you see lazy assed men around you, poke them into action. Why even associate with lazy people?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Herb, your girlfriend does not sound like she is in love with you. You don’t sound happy with the arrangement, but you stay with it anyway. That is entirely your right to do so, but that doesn’t mean relationships are all worthless. There are lots of crappy people out there. Ya don’t have to be in their lives.

    Anacaona, I don’t think 13 year old girls know what is good for them. I was that age and a good memory. Yeah I had crushes on way older men, but the non-predatory types never made a move on me. I would think the same way about a 13 year old boy and a much older woman. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it ethical, like Congress and insider trading lol.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Susan, I know quite a number of women who got married in their late teens or early 20s here in Utah. The majority of them got divorced and are now remarried a different man. So early first marriages do still happen. They just aren’t very stable.

    I don’t think I would advise a woman to get married younger than 24 unless she was exceptionally mature, self-aware and from a good background, and had chosen an excellent man who is also exceptionally mature, self-aware and from a good background.

    But I bet if you ask around, many 20-something will think he or she is exceptionally mature. I think I am, too! :P

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    With regard to male “sluttiness” vs happiness:

    Anecdotally, getting laid regularly meets a basic need that men have, so if you’re not getting it and you start to get it regularly, you’ll be happier by comparison. But like all things, I’m sure a pathological tendency to promiscuity ala Tucker Max might indicate some unresolved issues and unhappiness.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BroHamlet

      Anecdotally, getting laid regularly meets a basic need that men have, so if you’re not getting it and you start to get it regularly, you’ll be happier by comparison.

      Well, that can be accomplished in a relationship, though it obviously requires forfeiting sexual variety. The question is, how many men have the pull of a Tucker Max?

  • Jason773

    Second, most guys will spend 10 years between high school graduation and marriage. Very few are going to have the ability to pull women for casual sex during that time. Even guys here like Jason and Zach confess they got to the point where the casual routine became tedious, and they got into LTRs within a year of graduating college. I doubt anyone believes those LTRs are going to result in marriage.

    This is all true, and while I didn’t think ‘im in a relationship now so I’m probably gonna marry this girl’, for me to get into a relationship at this point in my life there has to be at least SOME potential that the girl is ‘the one’. If I 100% knew that I was going to end things in the future with some girl, for whatever reason, I wouldn’t get into an exclusive relationship because casual sex and the ability to date multiple girls is too available to me right now.

    For most guys, though, being in a LTR is going to be more rewarding both emotionally and physically than hanging with the guys 100% of the time, hoping to get lucky in a bar.

    The way you put this is definitely true, but there is a wide spectrum of options between those two ends.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      If I 100% knew that I was going to end things in the future with some girl, for whatever reason, I wouldn’t get into an exclusive relationship because casual sex and the ability to date multiple girls is too available to me right now.

      That makes sense, but let’s face it, you’re at the top of the food chain. A whole lot of 23 yo guys have low partner counts, and/or little relationship experience, so they may be happy to date someone exclusively just to get that experience. With 24% of college seniors reporting that they’re virgins, getting a girlfriend or boyfriend is going to seem like winning the lottery to many people, both male and female.

      Obviously, the degree to which you have options (supply) is going to affect your level of demand.

  • ozymandias

    Ana: Well, yes, because the fourteen-year-olds are both fairly stupid and neither has power over the other, so they’re less likely to take advantage of each other, pressure each other into something they don’t want to do, etc. (Although it can happen.) Practically, while I have known some people who had sex at twelve or thirteen and are none the worse for it, I think everyone should be encouraged to wait until they are ready to have sex, which for many people is going to be sixteen-eighteen and for a few as late as their twenties or thirties. Or never!

    Herb: I’ve broken up a few times, yeah. It happens and it hurts, but for many (most?) people romantic love is still awesome, even with a built-in time limit.

    Erm, as a poly person with a whole bunch of poly friends, I’m not sure how poly means you have less investment or hope. I am fairly certain that my friend would be just as depressed as a monogamous person about his girlfriend of more than a decade dumping him, even though he has a couple other girlfriends.

    Ian: Marrying at 22 is a terrible idea; HUS has just had some posts about how the divorce risk goes down substantially after 23. I mean, if you want to get married and then get divorced, that’s cool (as long as you told your partners your plans!) but somehow I do not think that is what you were aiming for.

  • FatAmericanSlut

    For the record, I’ve never considered marriage to be a viable option for me or my peers. From a very young age (elementary school) I’ve wondered why any man would voluntarily provide financial support to an unemployed woman when that woman was perfectly capable of pulling her own weight. I KNEW then that one day, the guys would get wise to that scam and refuse to play. (and here we are at HUS. Looks like I was right.) On the other hand, I saw how hard my mom struggled to keep our heads above water and decided that single motherhood wasn’t for me either, socially acceptable or not.

    I’ve always had a pretty nihilistic approach to sex and relationships. If marriage is unlikely to happen, if not off the table completely because I’m paying for the sins of feminism, then I might as well take whatever I can get. Between my complete lack of trust in men (that they won’t abandon me, leaving me penniless with toddlers to care for like what happened to my mother) and the cynicism prevalent in the men of my generation, I’m on the express train to spinsterville. The way I see it, I might as well get mine while I’m still young enough to get it. After all, I have needs too. And so, after thoughtful consideration: I choose Hookup.

    Go ahead, call me a slut. Just know that it was not a drunken accident that I became one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @FatAmericanSlut

      Why aren’t you using your usual handle?

      In terms of your comment, it sounds reasonable. You’ve thought it over, you’ve calculated the risks and benefits, and you’ve selected the option that you predict has the highest payout. I can’t argue with that. As long as you don’t think you’ll have a major change of heart and want to qualify yourself to some man, then you can act with impunity, answering only to yourself. I’m sure there are plenty of women in their 30s who might look back and say, “I might as well have been a slut! What a waste of my youth!”

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    FAS, I am sorry that you went through that experience and feel like you cannot trust men. I was also raised by a single mother in poverty, and I had a difficult time believing a guy was not going to abandon me like my father did.

    But if you never look for the good, then the bad has won. There are still tons of good people out there. If you close your heart, then it is unlikely that you will find love and happiness. Guard your heart carefully and don’t give it to the bad apples. Not everybody is cynical or untrustworthy. But do screen and filter.

    Hooking up has a much higher probability of exposing you to the very same types of men who hurt you and your family in the past, and perhaps that is why you are drawn to the idea of it. Maybe you think it could help you overcome that somehow? To sleep with men who care nothing about you? Replicate that horrible dynamic with your absent father? Don’t fall into that trap, for your own sake. You would do only damage to yourself, and be nothing but an instrument of pump and dump for some guys.

    You need to deal with the past and come to terms with it. It took me a long time, too. But it is possible to heal, and you would be doing yourself a service to act in ways that are healthy, emotionally and physically nourishing. You don’t have to punish yourself or be “slutty” in order to regain self-esteem. You should treat yourself well and love yourself. Then, from a place of strength, you can slowly open your heart and learn to trust and love another.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    That’s 22 for a woman. From cap and gown to bridal gown. That is just not going to happen. I wouldn’t even want it for my daughter. You have every right to aim for that, of course, but I believe the pool of women seeking that timeline will be small.

    Then women need to lower their standards because after that they’re still competing with women that age for men the age those women who wait are.

    The longer women put off marriage the more they are saying “I’ll settle for less”. Another case of might not be fair but is reality.

    @Hope

    Herb, your girlfriend does not sound like she is in love with you. You don’t sound happy with the arrangement, but you stay with it anyway. That is entirely your right to do so, but that doesn’t mean relationships are all worthless. There are lots of crappy people out there. Ya don’t have to be in their lives.

    She’s not a crappy person and I do think she cares about me. However, she’s at a point in life where I don’t think she believes in “for the rest of our lives” and some days I don’t either. I also like her quite a bit. I’d like permanent monogamy, but I’d also like a pony.

    Also, I have to choose from what’s on tap. Yes, not having any relationship is one option but I do think this is better (and I’ve done none plenty). There is always the 47 year old on OKCupid who is chasing me (although either she’s butt ugly or lying about her age by a decade and yes that matters to me…call me shallow and unable to see inner beauty or claiming to be more attractive than I am, whatever).

    Add in, women actually raise their standards and degree of shit testing as they age. Most single women over 40 have huge chips about men unable to handle challenging women and seem to want to prove no man can handle them (it’s not that I can’t handle you…after 90+ days with 100+ men in well under 24,000 sq foot building with no windows or fresh air you aren’t hard to handle, you’re just not worth handling) and you have to ask, “why bother”.

    Right now once or twice a week a get laid, don’t sleep alone, and have someone who talks to me. She messages me during the weeks and worries about me.

    I guess wanting that just for me and forever is being selfish anymore.

    @ozy

    I am fairly certain that my friend would be just as depressed as a monogamous person about his girlfriend of more than a decade dumping him, even though he has a couple other girlfriends.

    Serious question because I need to compare our baselines, how old are you and your friends?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Herb, even if you don’t believe in permanent monogamy, you’re in effect one-sidedly monogamous with a person who is not giving you monogamy. That makes you not very different from those girls who are in some guy’s “harem” with soft polygamy. No wonder you’re not happy. I’m sure the guys with harems also “care” about their girls and check in with them, as long as the girls behave and doesn’t give them too much trouble.

    I guess you think you’re asking for a pony when you’re really asking for a normal used car like most other people have?

  • Abbot

    Here is some more hookup anatomy –
    .
    “female sexuality is policed in a way male sexuality isn’t, sending the signal that women’s very bodies are the property of eventual spouses, which has all sorts of implications for who is more important in the marriage.”
    .
    –Amanda Marcotte
    .
    Talk about a WOW! [not to be confused with a WOE]
    .
    Of course its not complete. Who is doing this policing? How is it being policed? Nevertheless, a feminist has stated that female sexual behavior while single correlates in some fashion with marriage. But she is dead wrong about this importance thing. Its not about that. Its about being selected as a wife in the first place.

  • Abbot

    “My comments were not aimed at you or anyone elsehere.”
    .
    How refreshing

  • ozymandias

    Herb: I’m twenty. My poly friends range from nineteen to mid-thirties.

    I… don’t think it’s selfish to break up with someone if you’re in a relationship that’s making you unhappy. If you want a monogamous forever relationship, then you should look for that, instead of settling for a poly relationship that makes you unhappy because it’s “all you can get.”

  • INTJ

    @ J

    @INTJ
    Thanks for your response. I’m glad to have you clarify what you meant as opposed to having others jump in on your behalf. I’m glad to see that you plan on operating within some moral strictures. While I hate to see you or any young man be a chump, I also hate to see guys act as victimizers of the naive and inexperienced. There’s a sane middle ground that’s often hard to find.

    Absolutely. I demand respect, but I don’t disrespect others either.

    @Hope

    pvw, why doesn’t the girl in that scenario just ask? That’s what I did. A few time I asked, the guy was interested in me romantically. A few times, no such interest. Open and honest communication is not rocket science. I didn’t get to a single relationship without it.
    I always told every single guy I talked to, almost word for word: “I am looking for love. I don’t have sex without love.” It never fazed the ones who were also looking for love. Several times I heard from guys, “You’re possibly even more of a romantic than me.” I thought that was a nice compliment.

    Exactly. A lot of girls expect us guys to do all the work of approaching them and then making sure we don’t hurt them, while the girls just sit back and throw shit tests at us, without ever communicating with us about what they want out of the relationship.

    If girls took an equal role in communicating as part of the relationship, things would be so much easier for everyone.

    Regarding the fact that people tend to fall in love and intend a permanent relationship, but failing for various reasons, think this is due to unrealistic expectations and poor planning. As an example for planning, right now I’m studying out of state and I intend to go back to the Bay Area for work once I graduate. So I’m not actively looking for a relationship with a local girl. I am however observing the sexual dynamics and (mostly nonexistent) dating dynamics around me so that I know what sort of approach to take later. People also have unrealistic expectations, and because of these they aren’t willing to compromise or make a real effort to keep the relationship going when they face some problem. Nothing is perfect, but people don’t realize that.

  • Herb

    @ozy

    I’m twenty. My poly friends range from nineteen to mid-thirties.

    At 45 I’m sure that’s a huge part of the differences in our experiences.

    Although, I wasn’t too impressed with most “poly” people I knew in my early and mid 30s in the Boston goth scene. For most it seemed an excuse for sexual flings and drama more than multiple deep and meaningful relationships.

    For the mind of me I don’t get the guy I know who is poly with a wife and six girlfriends. Why be married then (no, he doesn’t see all of them each week and at least three of them are married)? Why be married to him (yes, she has other lovers too). I probably also just see them as greedy :)

    In the end, if you know things aren’t going to last and odds are you’ll be cheated on you might as well be upfront and honest about it instead of playing let’s pretend.

    If I want to play let’s pretend I’ll play D&D.

    @Hope

    I guess you think you’re asking for a pony when you’re really asking for a normal used car like most other people have?

    I bolded what in Nuclear Power School we called a “key word or tricky phrase”. Not everyone has a used car. A lot of people have new cars and some people have never owned a car. A significant portion of the never crowd are happy with the bus or a cab but some still wish they could own a car even if they know they never will.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Hope

    I’m on board with the gatekeeper notion, but it is a somewhat old-fashioned concept (50 years after the pill). It worked great for you, and I’ve recommended it to every single female friend I have. I actually think most relationship-minded women do this already for the most part.

    The consequences of bringing this back (how?) without a corresponding change in women’s tolerance for rejection are… guys will face rejection more often, and girls will face involuntary celibacy more often. I’m not sure that’s an improvement overall, but who knows. Singles will be largely sexless, or the guys will just go to sex workers as they do already. People will still get together, monogamously, but I’m not sure they’ll necessarily settle down at younger ages. You still have to find someone you can live with for the rest of your life!

  • pvw

    Hope: pvw, why doesn’t the girl in that scenario just ask? That’s what I did. A few time I asked, the guy was interested in me romantically. A few times, no such interest.

    My reply: She made it clear she was not into casual and was not about to join the harem. She kept her options open. Yet, he kept her around as someone to hang out with once in a while. Funny, he eventually came around to dating when he was facing a personal crisis and the hoochies were not to be found. The only one around was her, who had been warm and supportive of him all along. They began dating but it didn’t work out. Not sure why.

    Herb: I was thinking less of men in the SMP and more the broad cultural training prior to a woman even entering the SMP. She enters the SMP with that assumption in place.

    My reply: And those who want to be valued for more than their ability to put out struggle mightily.

    Anacaona: You’re Afro-Latina?
    I keep forgetting that is not obvious in pics but yes I’m 70% black.

    Pfft I spent four hours at the beauty parlor. I’m not kidding about the prayers and then the hair looks nice for 10 days and less. Nightmare hair.

    My reply: Cool! I’m not sure my percentage, but I’m medium brown-skinned with type 4a hair: http://www.naturallycurly.com/hair-types.

    The hair likes the twists, it just grows and grows. Keep it in for a week, take them out and fluff out the curly coils. It lasts for days. But get the hair done, get it wet or sweat it at the gym, and it is gone!

  • Abbot

    “most relationship-minded women do this already for the most part.”
    .
    Beware of the reformed open gate
    .
    “guys will face rejection more often”
    .
    The majority of guys are used to that now
    .
    “girls will face involuntary celibacy more often”
    .
    IOW, for the majority of Western women – no more man-sharing-harem
    .

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Megaman, being single is way better than being in a bad situation and taking those sorts of risks. Plus, then the girl is free from entanglements when a good guy comes along. As for being sexless, given how bad the sex has been reported to be in casual scenarios, it’s no real loss.

    Nowadays it’s cultural standard to tell girls to wait until they’re really comfortable and ready, “no means no,” and most good men wouldn’t push it. So by the girl stating it upfront that she won’t be ready unless there’s real love, that’s a clear sign of what gets in the gate. And we know that men generally respect high screening standards in a woman more than low standards. Win-win situation in my opinion.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Herb, I seem to be not getting through to poly folks with the car analogies. How about this: you have to choose your path and stick to it. If you consider yourself poly, you play by their rules and not wistfully wish you can have lifelong monogamy. If you consider yourself monogamous, you don’t dabble in the poly stuff and then complain you aren’t getting monogamy from it. You’ve made your choice in going poly, so asking for the monogamy pony/car/asteroid when you’ve got the poly horse/van/rock doesn’t make a lot of sense.

    In other news, no one’s going to feel sorry for the girl who willingly made herself a part of some guy’s harem of women, and then whines that she can’t find a guy who will propose to her and give her a traditional lifelong marriage.

  • Dogsquat

    Herb, I’m throwing in with Ana and Hope here:

    There’s an unconscious power you get from being single and looking. You’re freed up to do whatever. Right now you’re neither fish nor fowl, and I guarantee that vibe is being picked up by people. It also changes your behavior.

    Right now, your needs are maybe 60% met. You aren’t starving to death (emotionally speaking), so there’s not quite enough impulse there to overcome your coefficient of static friction.

    Consider cutting yourself free from your entanglement. It probably looks insane to do so, but I guarantee your mindset and actions will change if you do.

    Of course, there’s no guarantee of a positive outcome, though.

  • Abbot

    .

    “In other news, no one’s going to feel sorry for the girl who willingly made herself a part of some guy’s harem of women, and then whines that she can’t find a guy who will propose to her and give her a traditional lifelong marriage.”
    .
    The fact is that its globally accepted to not feel sorry for a woman facing such a predicament. Not even the feminists will step up in defense of this poor fallen creature. She got her manful and now its…just deserts

    .

  • Herb

    @Hope

    In other news, no one’s going to feel sorry for the girl who willingly made herself a part of some guy’s harem of women, and then whines that she can’t find a guy who will propose to her and give her a traditional lifelong marriage.

    I don’t disagree. I don’t expect (or to be honest believe) any pity.

    If anything I see myself as a cautionary tale. I chased women above my MMV all my life and now I’m looking at the scraps left instead of the family I had hoped to have.

    Although I’m a man and HUS is aimed at women, by observation I’ve concluded a lot more women make this mistake than men. There is a reason to:

    1. Keep your eyes on the prize. Loneliness or
    2. Spend energy on people who are after the same prize.
    3. Spend energy on people who are bringing the same amount to the table as you, no more, no less (ie, go after your same MMV).
    4. Once you find someone who has a mutual connection with you and fits #2 and #3 hang on and don’t let go even if your number is only 0 or you’re only 22 or your career is just starting or you’re still in school or whatever. This point is where I diverge from a lot of HUS…if you find that person as a junior in college, seal the deal then and there. Drop out and join the service or get a job while the other finishes and then switch off (if they won’t work out such a deal or won’t follow through you don’t have that connection).

    Life is what happens when you’re planning something else. Failure to do the above is our biggest mistake.

    The other big mistake people make is inflating their worth in #3. You might think you deserve to date one of the JV cheerleaders, but if all that will even talk to you is the band girls, guess what. Your SMV/MMV is probably, at top, the same as a band chick.

    You can swear you don’t date ugly women all you want, but if you have to share a non-ugly woman with the third string quarterback (who isn’t as sensitive as you and doesn’t have a job but everyone can’t wait for him to take off his shirt at parties, which he reliably does) then, guess what, your SMV/MMV is that of the ugly girl (and, no, she doesn’t have a nice personality…she’s as bitter and resentful as you expect).

    *shrugs*

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Herb, I would cosign what you said about not going after people out of your range. My husband and I are both the nerdy, outcasty kind. We both played P&P D&D and met in WoW, after all.

    But why see the person who is on your own level as “ugly” or unattractive? I find my husband more attractive because he’s not some jock or quarterback or whatever that other women flock to.

    Frankly I feel happier and more grateful to be on the nerd tier than the women who are considered top shelf. I’m not bitter or resentful about it. I got a man who’s on my level, and we’re happy together in our nerditude.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hey Hope

      Totally, OT, but how are you feeling? How’s the pregnancy going?

  • Herb

    @Hope

    But why see the person who is on your own level as “ugly” or unattractive?

    Because by any objective standard the women who approach me (outside the current and prior gf, and remember both of them are poly and I was talking about not compromising in that realm) are ugly.

    I know that sounds cruel but there it is. What does that say about me? It says I’m ugly too…I’ve come to accept that. For beautiful people to exist there have to be ugly people.

    If you want to say a guy who is ugly but only wants to date unugly women isn’t being realistic and either needs to get realistic and accept compromise, I won’t argue with you.

    Rule #3 for people wanting to have a livelong, fulfilling relationship: Look in the mirror (physical and otherwise) and honestly face what you see when you’re young. Improve what you can and accept what you can’t before you’re too old to do so. Them go after same value people.

    In our culture 300+ pound women are ugly. I can pull them. When they lose the weight I can’t. Right there, it tells me my SMV. As does the OkCupid woman (who also is just plain annoying in the emails she sends me…the latest asking if I know single men like me since my profile clearly states seeing someone).

    @Dogsquat

    Right now, your needs are maybe 60% met. You aren’t starving to death (emotionally speaking), so there’s not quite enough impulse there to overcome your coefficient of static friction.

    I was thinking about this and came up with an idea.

    It’s not just about getting your needs met but getting your unneeds not met.

    Unneeds are things like shit tests, constant conflict, snide remarks, having to deal with a child more than an adult, etc.

    Right now I’m probably getting close to as many as my needs met as my marriage, but whereas my marriage met about 90% of my unneeds this one meets only about 10% of them.

    That’s a hell of an improvement.

    Especially if a relationship that meets 100% of needs and 100% of unneeds is neutral in value but still has all the carrying costs, while 60% – 10% is a much better value for much lower carrying cost.

    Regardless, a few months ago (about when I started reading HUS…HUS is really depressing and to be honest I feel worse about my relationship when I read it than when I don’t) I decided that when this ends it’ll have been my last rodeo. I’m ready to retire from dating for the second time. Since it’s my last one I figure I should shoot for a full eight second ride.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    My husband and I are both the nerdy, outcasty kind. We both played P&P D&D and met in WoW, after all.

    That’s also a generational thing. For my generation playing D&D is the male equivalent to weighing 300 pounds.

    Still doing it at 45 is probably closer to 600.

    Of course, the fact that I’ve probably had close to as much enjoyment in life from sitting around a table with friends rolling dice (I mean, I have yet to understand how a hobby built around talking to people was anti-social, but playing video games where you only interact via the machine isn’t, but YMMV) as spending time with women and had a lot less bullshit in my life from it than from women leads me to think being 600 pounds is better than getting laid on the whole.

    Then again, until 2001 (and after my wife moved out) I said going to the ballet was better than having sex.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Anacaona, I don’t think 13 year old girls know what is good for them. I was that age and a good memory. Yeah I had crushes on way older men, but the non-predatory types never made a move on me. I would think the same way about a 13 year old boy and a much older woman. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it ethical, like Congress and insider trading lol.

    Neither do I but Ozy does. About the age of consent I’m a bit weary about numbers I know 14 year old still playing with dolls so if an older guy shows interest on them I wouldn’t think he is ready, but I know precious 14 year olds that could take Roissy in the palm of their hands and make a bow out of them so I will say it depends on the person. Some women specially hot ones that taste the power of their beauty at early age grow really fast, mother nature sometimes leap forward, YMMV.

    @Ozy
    In case you don’t remember. This is a follow up to a conversation were Susan mentioned that she was horrified at a 14 year old that expressed her desired to get laid to find advice to do so instead on any discouragement because she was too young obviously and you waving your sex positive flag said that this is the right approach to a horny 14 year old and I remembering my days at Jezebel remembered the whole “The only requisite to having sex is being horny to want it till you do something feminism disagree like banging an older man” and I decided to remind you a bit about it. So this idea that you will discourage a young lady from having sex without hearing anything “I’m horny” is not at all what you had preached for a the longest time so what is up?

    My reply: Cool! I’m not sure my percentage, but I’m medium brown-skinned with type 4a hair: http://www.naturallycurly.com/hair-types.

    I got my percentage from 23and me. Is a nice site but wearing natural hair is kind of problematic for me, it doesn’t flatter my face (and I know is not obvious but long straight hair suits my face) and there is a whole lot of cultural connotations. I tried to get into a natural hairstyle to save money when I was here and my hubby had to tell me we could afford it because I got very insecure and depressed without my beauty treatments so yeah…maybe one day…maybe.

    Frankly I feel happier and more grateful to be on the nerd tier than the women who are considered top shelf. I’m not bitter or resentful about it. I got a man who’s on my level, and we’re happy together in our nerditude.

    Cosign that pretty hair. I didn’t always knew that I was a nerd but once I found out I’m very happy and finally things make sense. Wouldn’t change it for the world.

    @Herb
    First your idea for a novel sounds really good if there is any man in the manosphere that can write something that appeals to women must be you.
    Second I’m really sorry to see you quitting and just enjoying the last bit. I sincerely hope that once your girl dumps you, you still have the fire in you to try and do your best a off now you are a different person and I think reading HUS might help you to acquire other knowledge about relationships and improve your odds at happiness, life is too long to live it on bitterness, IMO. YMMV.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Susan, I’m doing pretty well… just the usual pregnancy aches, which I won’t complain about except to my husband. :P I did notice that everything is happening earlier this time, the baby kicking, the hip bone stretching, and all of that. We’ll find out whether it’s a boy or girl the Friday before Mother’s Day. That will be exciting!

  • pvw

    Anacaona:

    wearing natural hair is kind of problematic for me, it doesn’t flatter my face (and I know is not obvious but long straight hair suits my face) and there is a whole lot of cultural connotations.

    My reply:

    The connotations for so many of us from when we were younger is that our hair should be permed/pressed/flat ironed to look attractive. My mom liked the long permed look. It looked fine when it was done, but I recall that it looked so flat, even if I put in curls. I enjoyed the fuller look got when I next washed it.

    Yet, as I got older, I got tired of feeling as though it didn’t work as well as it could, ie., I’d get breakage. Eventually, I just cut it off and went natural. I grew it out over time.

    A cousin suggested the twists some time ago, and I haven’t looked back since. They fit my face better and are so incredibly low maintenance, plus the hair is growing more than it ever has, it seems. Taking them out, I get such great spirals, similar to the woman in the 3c image.

    Right now, though, with the flat ironing, I just pull it back; it will last another week, I’ll put the twists in then. I’m so vain, I like the flat ironing so that I can see how long it has gotten.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Herb, I guess I don’t really know enough about the poly community to comment on that aspect of it, but I will say that my husband had a similar problem. Before me, the only girls who showed him overt interest were either already attached in some way or were really overweight. So he did the MGTOW thing for several years and gave up on pursuing women in his 20s. But he is most definitely NOT UGLY.

    I tend to take the initiative once a guy piques my interest, so I did escalate things with my husband, though it was before I knew he was actually handsome, since we met online first. I think the reason why a lot of nerdy guys have trouble is that they tend to only go after women who show overt interest. It is because the nerdy guy has done the same calculation you said you had done with regard to rejection frequency.

    In the traditional dating market the guy pursues, the girl chooses from the pool of suitors. I hated that market with a passion, and I’ve gone on maybe 2 “dates” and been “asked out” very few times. I did put myself out there and did my own share of initiation. I got to know guys and talked to them one-on-one, and I would drop hints and encouragements when I felt real potential. In doing so the guy would know the % chance that I would receive his feelings positively was quite high. A lot of times I would even be more direct if it was online (even if I had met the guy from school or whatever), which is also how I would get rejections.

    Anyway, the point is, the market dynamics are skewed because guys who are higher IQ tend to be less willing to put themselves through rejection over and over again, which in turn causes them to be very dejected and feel like their options are between the super overweight or crazy or already taken girl. So without knowing more, my diagnosis is that you’re undervaluing yourself.

  • SayWhaat

    Did you see this week’s “Girls”? Hannah has an STD check, and the middle-aged female doctor who takes care of her says that she thanks God that she isn’t 24 in today’s SMP. I’m loving the show; it’s such a cautionary tale. If I had a daughter, I’d make her watch it.

    I thought I’d hate the show too but I’m loving it as well! Interestingly enough, one of my co-workers is friends with Allison Williams. She was excited for the show but thinks it’s “meh” now because it doesn’t conform with her experiences (then again, she did go to an all-female university). :P

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    The connotations for so many of us from when we were younger is that our hair should be permed/pressed/flat ironed to look attractive.

    There are other things in DR catholic girls perm their hair while evangelical/protestant ones go with natural hair usually in buns. Girls with the afro are in three categories too poor to afford the relaxers (and you will have to be starving since is really cheap to get a relaxer and find a friend that puts it on you or like my mother did yourself), too unfeminine (and there is connotation of lack of hygiene in this one) lesbian feminists. So try to feel confident after 30 years exposed to that. My own sister told me I looked like a bum when I went natural and showed her the pics and I remember in HS I let my natural hair grow too much and a male friend told me to “get a relaxer because I looked “dirty”.
    So yeah I will need years of deprogramming for me to use my natural looks without feeling like…an dirty evangelical feminist lesbian :p

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @J

    “If you are having NSA sex with someone who’s DTF with NSA, that’s one thing.”

    If she has sex with you before you’ve established a commitment…. then by definition she is most certainly DTF for NSA.

    Thoughts and words aren’t worth anything. It’s all about actions.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    I agree completely with Mike C about relationship outlook.

    A relationship that doesn’t have a legitimate chance at marriage is a waste of time for guys… they’d be much better off in a FWB scenario with the same girl where they have more time to do what they want and not get roped into the roles and responsibilities that come with being a boyfriend.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Hope
    The idea of remaining sexless until one’s future spouse shows up probably irks guys more than girls, I suppose : )

    I think both men and women share responsibility for communicating intent WRT sex and relationships. That’s what worked for me, anyway. But I agree that strong mutual affection (call it what you will) should precede sex. Unfortunately, love and commitment aren’t like a punch card system. You have to trust the other person to some degree, and you’re always at risk of being taken advantage of in the beginning.

    Two troublesome facts complicate things for women: ~40% of guys admitted to lying to get sex (Susan cited this somewhere). At the same time, ~75% of guys would postpone sex and get to know the girl better if she was relationship-material (Gallup 2002). How do women navigate that mess and make zero mistakes?

    Something else you said earlier:
    “Men’s job is to chase and express interest, and the woman’s job is to screen and filter out those whose interests do not align with hers.”

    I know you didn’t mean it this way, but guys aren’t unthinking horndogs. I’m not so sure everybody fits into these neat little behavioral categories. It’s very old-school, but not realistic across the board. Some of the guys best suited for relationships and marriage are extremely risk averse. They’ve learned the hard way not to go out on a limb anymore with complete strangers. I empathize completely.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    How do women navigate that mess and make zero mistakes?

    Follow Dogsquat’s strategy of “don’t take your pants off.” It really isn’t that difficult.

  • J

    @Ana

    Actually all my closest friends (a dozen that I’m sure off double that that I heard of but have no proof) were virgins till they were in the preparing the wedding process.

    I’m sort of amazed by that; it’s pretty rare in mainstream America nowadays. Not that I’m knocking it or shaming; it’s just that I’ve known so few. How old were they, if I can ask? Were you all in your 30s at the time? What do you think stopped them having premarital sex?

    In fact any Dominican woman that is on college and doesn’t have a child has almost a 90% chance of being a virgin still and we are not shy in bed or hate sex trust me on hat.

    I initially misread you as saying 90% of women in the DR were wedding night virgins, which seemed unbelievable to me, so I googled this:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/220767/immigrants-are-people-too/mark-krikorian#

    The article says, “Illegitimacy, for instance, is rampant in sending countries, with the official rate in Mexico at almost 40 percent, 63 percent in the Dominican Republic, 73 percent in El Salvador.” The overall American illegitimacy rate is about 35% by comparison.

    If the author’s stats are correct and the legitimacy rate is only 37%, your friends are a self-selected, higher status, well-educated group and not the norm (just as UMC American college girls are not the statistical norm). I would assume that your friends were lovely people–especially since they were YOURS, but if the rate of cheating was as high as you say, I would find the author’s stats believable. The cheaters have to find people to cheat with after all.

    You talk about the shaming culture in the US influencing the loss of virginity here, but I think it would be much more helpful to know how you and your friends were able to swim against the tide in the DR. If we could bottle that, we’d know some helpful things about the problem.

  • J

    Two troublesome facts complicate things for women: ~40% of guys admitted to lying to get sex (Susan cited this somewhere). At the same time, ~75% of guys would postpone sex and get to know the girl better if she was relationship-material (Gallup 2002). How do women navigate that mess and make zero mistakes?

    They don’t, Megaman–unless their celibate and that isn’t going to happen soon.

    Here’s a furthur complication that confuses young women: Some guys only want sex from a girl, but the guy who loves a woman, he’s going to want sex too. A woman can only protect herself 100% by staying away from guys who want sex. You know, everyone.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      A woman can only protect herself 100% by staying away from guys who want sex

      Thank you for pointing out the absurdity of that position. The suggestion that a woman should keep her pants on to avoid risk is logical, but about as useful as advising women to enter a convent to avoid getting their hearts broken.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    “Follow Dogsquat’s strategy of ‘don’t take your pants off.’ It really isn’t that difficult.”

    I think you missed the point of those two stats. Unless a woman has psychic powers, she’ll never be able to know exactly what a guy’s intentions are, even if she does make him wait. And very few guys are willing to wait indefinitely.

  • J

    @Say Whaat

    I thought I’d hate the show too but I’m loving it as well! Interestingly enough, one of my co-workers is friends with Allison Williams. She was excited for the show but thinks it’s “meh” now because it doesn’t conform with her experiences

    I expected to hate it too. I thought it would be more SATC and less of an expose ( pronounced exposay; I don’t know how to type an accent mark.) of how hard the SMP is for a particularly group of people. It doesn’t conform to my experiences, but it mirrors a composite of all the stories I’ve heard from young women. I also see a lot of kids like Hannah, who have immense confidence in their abilities and no confidence in their lovableness. I find her earnest, sad and perplexed all at once.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J, @SayWhaat

      One of the reasons I’m loving Girls is that it really has captured the zeitgeist – it’s a useful confirmation of my own writings about the SMP. It’s all there – douchebags, women looking for love and validation in casual sex, the rejection of the pedestalizing male, asshole Game from the famous artist (could be Roissy!). As I said in my post about the show, it’s exposing pretty lies – in this case, the lie that sex is empowerment, and that women can have sex like men. The young women I know are all getting hooked, and in my view, they’re getting valuable information in every episode. It’s like an awesome sex ed class.

  • Alias

    Anacaona:
    “Actually all my closest friends (a dozen that I’m sure off double that that I heard of but have no proof) were virgins till they were in the preparing the wedding process. In fact any Dominican woman that is on college and doesn’t have a child has almost a 90% chance of being a virgin still and we are not shy in bed or hate sex trust me on that”
    ——–

    That’s great.
    This is what you and I discussed previously- that there was a division of social class (not limited to wealth) in the Latin-American community where promiscuity was more common typically among the poor, uneducated and fatherless (and still is for the most part).
    No longer true by the 2nd generation Americans.

    I know LOTs of older, immigrant women of various nationalities (including European) ages 60+ who have a total partner count of 1- their husbands. I can count on one hand now how many women > age 50 who can say the same.

  • Abbot

    “75% of guys would postpone sex and get to know the girl better if she was relationship-material ”
    .
    Then that means guys are not willing to wait if the girl has a history of not waiting

  • Alias

    Oops!

    “> age 50 who can”
    Correction: < age 50

  • J

    I did notice that everything is happening earlier this time, the baby kicking, the hip bone stretching, and all of that.

    It happens earlier with each pregnancy. We’ll all be excited to hear about the baby’s sex.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @J
    “Some guys only want sex from a girl, but the guy who loves a woman, he’s going to want sex too.”

    Good point, that’s key to the discussion. It’s been said that intentions and motivations don’t matter in the SMP. I think that’s bunk. Guys and girls just looking to hookup randomly would do the world a favor if they segregated themselves from the rest of the singles. All the more reason to only date within one’s extended social circle, instead of complete strangers.

    Conventional wisdom is that no rational, thinking person can be taken advantage of. Therefore, if it does happen, that person’s to blame for being too trusting or not sufficiently cynical. That argument makes complete sense to me if we’re talking about money and investments, but love and sex are a totally different animal.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    She will get burned. The difference is, following Dogsquat’s advice, she will be taking reasonable precautions and thus isn’t degrading her MMV very much. Most guys are not going to be judgemental about a girl who took a chance and got burned.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    “Then that means guys are not willing to wait if the girl has a history of not waiting.”

    I’d love to know how you can verify someone’s sexual history. Is it a matter of public record? Maybe it should be : )

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I’m sort of amazed by that; it’s pretty rare in mainstream America nowadays. Not that I’m knocking it or shaming; it’s just that I’ve known so few. How old were they, if I can ask?

    Ages ranked from 21 to 26 I was the last one at 27 but they all lost it to men they were engaged to and are still married to the longest one has 12 years of marriage.
    I do have a couple of stupid friends but they are the ones driving those numbers up and they are really stupid like “my boyfriend disappears on me on the weekends to go to church I swear” levels of stupid.

    Were you all in your 30s at the time? What do you think stopped them having premarital sex?

    The thing is that being chaste has the same status as being educated= the way to a better life and you need a better man for a better life so any woman with her eyes sought on having a better life knows that becoming the mother of an illegitimate child is the more sure way to end up lower or in the same place and since the other ones are living proof of this is not hard to convince your daughters of what happens to the sluts they live next to you you can see the string of men coming and going while she grows older and jaded there is no PC making them claim how good their life is and even if some do no one believes them.
    Also sluts on my generation were not shy about the losses they shared that while our peers took us “virgins” out for ice cream and hand holding they got took out in dirty hotel rooms and beer. The level of competition was really not romantic but it was a one way street once you become a slut you couldn’t regain the treatment of a virgin.
    Is also a dual system if you are a virgin that filters a lot of cads out and the ones that remain belong to the “less bad” cohort of men from them on is easier to find a man that will understand the requirements of dating a virgin, although half of them find a slut to fulfill their needs without pressuring you to do so is a tricky because the second way a woman might compete for “better men” is to get pregnant and see if he will do the “responsible thing” so you have two dual competition hence the high rates of the other side and this is a negative once the mother of one illegitimate child having six more trying to trap a man is easier than trying to go back so hence I can assure most of those numbers are few women with many kids of different men.
    Also I suspect your illegitimacy rates are lower because of abortion, since we DR women are mostly pro-life most women will not terminate the pregnancy ( I think we have 1 in 10 women aborting while you have 1 in 3), unless the child’s father is unknown or there is a big let down “like getting fired because the child father’s is your boss” so we bear many more kids than USA women, hence if she doesn’t have a child by college age she is probably still a virgin rule.

    You talk about the shaming culture in the US influencing the loss of virginity here, but I think it would be much more helpful to know how you and your friends were able to swim against the tide in the DR. If we could bottle that, we’d know some helpful things about the problem.

    There is a lot of other contraptions at work: Most kids live at home till they get married, so most of the sex happens in the “hot sheet motel zone” and everyone know were is it so is harder to conceal how much sex are you having going casual is harder (slut reputation) so most of the sex HAS to be relationship minded.
    The girls that have to live outside home to study have special all girls places with rules that remind you of a nunnery: No boys allowed and no indiscreet behaviour or expelling and calling the parents to explain to them what you did loco parentis, that is how we don’t have bullys at school you bully you are out.
    Men cooperate too, a guy more or less understand that virgins exist, we are Catholics after all, and understand that she wont be banging him right away so after evaluating if he likes her enough to wait for sex they allow for things to progress slowly, they know that the price for sex is commitment so he commits and keep showing it while she shows more sexy side at similar rates is like a dance, slow escalation more kisses, tongue, hugs, hand jobs, blow jobs NOT ANAL (that is just stupid american bullshiting)…so there is a way to give just enough without going all the way till there is a date for the wedding in which cases most of my friends considered committed enough for sex, of course she cannot be giving blowjobs to random guys that also is slutty behaviour, boyfriend earns the most sexy side by sticking around and being nice rewarding assholes for beer is not part of “saving myself” policy.
    Also very few of them will do a long relationship my mother used to tell me that a guy that after a year more or less doesn’t talk about marriage (or in extreme cases cohabitation) is a guy not worth keeping around, if he is not convinced after a year he never will be, move on.
    Still most of my friends and me did it because is a great filter we know men will say and do almost anything to get laid if he has to endure a chaste relationship chances are he really likes you for more than a romp in the sack and most of them are looking for someone to marry not to hold out till they are ready whatever that means.
    And you cannot pretend being treated like a virgin unless you really are so this is a strategy you can only use once, hence is usually taken really seriously.
    But again is a different world people there is mostly poor there is a lot more to lose and a lot more to gain from waiting and they consider gaining money and status a lifetime job so marriage is part of the help not a detriment or an obstacle You will need a lot of change and incentives to make waiting and commitment attractive again not in this century, YMMV.

  • J

    Megaman, I cosiigne your post #225.

    All the more reason to only date within one’s extended social circle, instead of complete strangers.

    A couple of years ago, Psychology Today did a special issue on love. One article centered on meeting people through friends of friends. Apparently, that’s still how a majority of married couples meet.
    I met my husband at a birthday party for a friend of a friend.

  • Alias

    J:
    “The article says, “Illegitimacy, for instance, is rampant in sending countries, with the official rate in Mexico at almost 40 percent, 63 percent in the Dominican Republic, 73 percent in El Salvador.” The overall American illegitimacy rate is about 35% by comparison.

    If the author’s stats are correct and the legitimacy rate is only 37%, your friends are a self-selected, higher status, well-educated group and not the norm (just as UMC American college girls are not the statistical norm). I would assume that your friends were lovely people–especially since they were YOURS, but if the rate of cheating was as high as you say, I would find the author’s stats believable. The cheaters have to find people to cheat with after all.”
    ————

    Yes, there’s clearly a class division.
    Illegitimacy rates are worse in Latin America than in the states, similar to the LA communities in the US.

  • Alias

    J:
    “You talk about the shaming culture in the US influencing the loss of virginity here, but I think it would be much more helpful to know how you and your friends were able to swim against the tide in the DR. If we could bottle that, we’d know some helpful things about the problem.”
    ——-

    It started with enough men aspiring to being cads. Then the women jumped on board in response.

    There are several factors keeping some women off that carousel;
    – social class (father present and actively involved is a big one)
    – parent/cultural expectations and there’s still value to having a good reputation
    – more restrictions on appropriate behavior (lots of discouraging girls from hanging out with men, especially alone)
    – single women getting drunk, hanging out at bars is deemed as low-class
    – there are enough examples around you to witness the bad outcomes
    (vivid examples of how not having a 2 parent home will greatly decrease your and your children’s opportunities)
    – PC culture is weak, so there’s slut-shaming
    – strict rules and strict parents aren’t seen as abusive and restrictive, but caring for your well-being
    – for some it’s religious convictions
    – other women with similar upbringing increases support to remain chaste

    These are off the top of my head.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    “Apparently, that’s still how a majority of married couples meet. I met my husband at a birthday party for a friend of a friend.”

    I met the wife through *trustworthy* co-workers. They helped set us up. I’d like to find that article. Not only do a majority of married couples meet that way, I believe a majority of singles *want* to meet their future spouses that way. There’s a lesson for the kids.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’d like to find that article. Not only do a majority of married couples meet that way, I believe a majority of singles *want* to meet their future spouses that way. There’s a lesson for the kids.

      I just spent about 20 minutes on Psych Today – no luck. If anyone has a link, it would be much appreciated.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I met my husband at a birthday party for a friend of a friend.

    I’m crossing my fingers for that I have a really sweet single Twihard friend and a really nerdy single guy friend that I think will match perfectly if they meet. I’m hoping the baby shower is the event for their ship to start sailing. I know I’m crazy I just want everyone to find love and happiness and have a lots of babies. :)

  • Alias

    Geesh, how i wish I could edit.

    Hahaha, Anacaona- you and I hit a lot of the same points.
    Forgive me for intruding when the ? was actually posed to you, not me.

  • J

    Thanks for taking the time to write such a complete answer, Ana. I eally have a good picture now of what life is like in the DR!

    This jumped out at me: “she shows more sexy side at similar rates is like a dance, slow escalation more kisses, tongue, hugs, hand jobs, blow jobs NOT ANAL (that is just stupid american bullshiting)…so there is a way to give just enough without going all the way.”

    Minus the bjs, women used to be able to slowly escalate like that here. You’re right, it is like a dance.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    This is what you and I discussed previously- that there was a division of social class (not limited to wealth) in the Latin-American community where promiscuity was more common typically among the poor, uneducated and fatherless (and still is for the most part).

    If I had to pick one factor I will say fatherlessness or/and low parental investment is probably the best predictor of troubles. Even if the girl does makes a mistake with a boyfriend and ends up pregnant having parents to make proud of embarrassed make the difference between having one illegitimate child and try to go back to college and maybe try to do better next time with the tools available (and I will say that there is a small cohort of men that will give a woman that made a mistake but showed impeccable behaviour afterwards a chance, specially if they themselves have some baggage like kids a divorce or some bad experiences) and going back and forth between men, beer and discotheques to see who sticks around.

  • Alias

    Megaman:
    “I met the wife through *trustworthy* co-workers. They helped set us up. I’d like to find that article. Not only do a majority of married couples meet that way, I believe a majority of singles *want* to meet their future spouses that way. There’s a lesson for the kids.”
    ———

    I’ve also had a hard time finding that info.
    Here’s one (though not the one I’ve seen before):

    http://advice.eharmony.com/blog/2011/02/10/how-you-meet-your-spouse-matters/

    Work/School- 37.8%
    Friends/Family- 26.1 %
    About 2/3s right there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Alias

      That eharmony article was fascinating – I was surprised how clearly meeting in a bar stood out as a poor strategy. High loss of attraction, highest divorce rate. This must say something about personality traits of people who frequent bars, even the ones who are looking to meet someone there.

  • J

    I didn’t mind the intrusions, Alias. It was nice to see the info again in bullet points. Are you also, Dominican? You seem to know the culture.

    Ana–I like to matchmake too.

    Megaman–I’m a packrat, so I may still have the magazine. If I come accross it, I’ll let you know what issue it was. There was also an article in that issue on arranged marriages, IIRC.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Megaman, it’s not possible to eliminate the possibility of mistakes. We can only minimize risks, not remove all of them.

    I understand that many of the guys who are monogamous-minded don’t like to overtly express interest, but as I said in my post to Herb, my actions tended to help things along. :P

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Thanks for taking the time to write such a complete answer, Ana. I eally have a good picture now of what life is like in the DR!

    Well the way dating was back in my coming of age times (around 15 years maybe 20) thanks to the image of “America is perfect” from Hollywood, plus the new generation of single mothers that are not trying to fix that but embracing it as a choice, there is a lot of new generation girls that are falling for the sex positivism crap the difference again is the abortion taboo is still there if there is something worst than being a slut is being a slut that kills her own babies so even though Carrie doesn’t have any kids from her shenanigans most of DR Carrie wannabes do, sad but true.

  • J

    Yeah, it’s astounding how much American trash culture is exported through movies and music, Ana.

  • OffTheCuff

    40% of men lying to get sex? Could be lying about your height by an inch, as opposed to wanting only sex when stating otherwise. Ladies, you’ve never lied about your weight? Taken MySpace angle pictures that hide your gut? Liars!

    One thing that constantly amazes me is how everyone knows the inner sex loves of 50-200 of their closes friends. How the heck do you do this? Do you talk about sex all day with everyone you meet? Is there some sort of sex discussion convention somewhere?

    Before a few years ago, I talked about sex with no one. Now I have the inner workings on a few (and they all are cheating, or have cheated, on their husbands, 100%) it’s still only in single digits.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      40% of men lying to get sex? Could be lying about your height by an inch, as opposed to wanting only sex when stating otherwise. Ladies, you’ve never lied about your weight? Taken MySpace angle pictures that hide your gut? Liars!

      Here’s the data, from a survey of over 1,000 men done by Amber Madison for her book Are All Men Assholes? (Note: No, she was very sympathetic to men.)

      On Faking Interest to Get Sex

      56% of guys in bars said they would fake interest in a girl to get sex
      41% of guys not in bars said the same
      44% of guys in bars said they would lie about wanting a relationship to get sex
      33% of guys not in bars said the same.
      Many guys excused sketchy sexual behavior, saying, “We met in a bar, what does she expect?” Guys assume that girls in bars know what they’re getting themselves into.

  • Alias

    J:
    “Are you also, Dominican? ”
    ——–

    No, 1st-gen-American of Cuban descent, many of the cultural values are the same though. This *was* the culture I was raised in- in the US (which included Dominicans and other Hispanics). I’ve also known other non-Hispanic immigrants who hold/held? similar core values, although I’ve seen some of that dissipate too.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Hope
    “I understand that many of the guys who are monogamous-minded don’t like to overtly express interest.”

    Probably because they’ve been advised that showing interest is no way to generate interest. FWIW, snubbing or ignoring women I liked back when I was single go me nowhere. When I first met my SO, I did some checking and then went after her. Sometimes (most times?) the direct approach works.

    You did good work with the hubby by the way, though online dating probably made that a little easier. More single women taking *some* initiative would go a long way.

  • http://jabootu.net/?p=4714 Pip

    Herb: Don’t give up! The ballet ain’t over until the last straight man’s asleep!

  • Alias

    Anacaona:
    “If I had to pick one factor I will say fatherlessness or/and low parental investment is probably the best predictor of troubles. ”
    ——

    It’s harder to draw the divide in socio-economic class compared to the States where there’s a large middle-class, I’m not making the division based on wealth/money.
    When I say uneducated poor- I mean joblessness/lack of job skills, single parent home, lack of valuing education/work ethic, etc. – I’m not necessarily referring to poor blue collar workers/working poor. I’m just not sure what term to use to make that distinction.

  • pvw

    J to Anacaona and Alias chiming in:

    “You talk about the shaming culture in the US influencing the loss of virginity here, but I think it would be much more helpful to know how you and your friends were able to swim against the tide in the DR. If we could bottle that, we’d know some helpful things about the problem.”
    ——-

    There are several factors keeping some women off that carousel;
    – social class (father present and actively involved is a big one)
    – parent/cultural expectations and there’s still value to having a good reputation
    – more restrictions on appropriate behavior (lots of discouraging girls from hanging out with men, especially alone)
    – single women getting drunk, hanging out at bars is deemed as low-class
    – there are enough examples around you to witness the bad outcomes
    (vivid examples of how not having a 2 parent home will greatly decrease your and your children’s opportunities)
    – PC culture is weak, so there’s slut-shaming
    – strict rules and strict parents aren’t seen as abusive and restrictive, but caring for your well-being
    – for some it’s religious convictions
    – other women with similar upbringing increases support to remain chaste

    These are off the top of my head.

    My observations: Anacaona, what you are describing about the D.R. sounds like what my mom described dating was like when she was a younger woman living in the English-speaking Caribbean.

    Alias, all those factors you described fit in to the dynamic. These were the values that came from our conservative immigrant backgrounds which then influenced how girls in our communities were raised “back home,” “back then,” and now.

    I remember being told by my parents that certain types of behavior and values were wierdly “American” and to be avoided.

    “Sexual freedom” was not freedom in their book; instead, it was a one-way ticket to being pumped and dumped, because marriage-minded men wanted virginal women, so no sex before marriage. Nice girls don’t drink with men. If they do have a drink, they have one, not to get drunk, and they do so in their homes or at family celebrations; they do not go to bars. Before I left for college, I remember my mom cautioning me against going to young men’s dorm rooms, not for sex, of course, but even to socialize. Homemaking skills were important, because a young woman who didn’t know how to manage a household was an embarrassment to her family. College was for getting an education to improve one’s condition in life, not for going crazy and relinquishing the values one was raised with. And of course, church on Sundays; I was raised Roman Catholic as well.

    Anacaona:

    Girls with the afro are in three categories too poor to afford the relaxers too unfeminine or lesbian feminists. So yeah I will need years of deprogramming for me to use my natural looks without feeling like…an dirty evangelical feminist lesbian :p

    My reply:

    I heard of this from African American women who traveled to the D.R. and who wore their hair natural. For my mom’s generation, it was about “comportment,” natural hair looked too messy, ie., the natural coils don’t look smooth. She would say that if I wanted to wear it natural, it should be shorter and smooth, but not too short that I looked masculine; if I want to wear it long, it should be processed.

  • Herb

    @Pip

    Herb: Don’t give up! The ballet ain’t over until the last straight man’s asleep!

    I never sleep at the ballet. Weep, maybe, but sleep, never.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @pvw and @Alias

    Heh we sound like a bunch of old ladies “back in the day” …”in my generation”…is really amazing how things can change so fast.

  • Alias

    pvw

    Yes (shaking head in agreement.)
    I knew girls from different islands and many other immigrant girls from different parts of the world (truth be told, while growing up- I was mostly associated with immigrants or 1st gens) who had similar upbringings when it came to promiscuity. I don’t see those values remain as strong with each generation as they become more acculturated/assimilated with the mainstream culture.

  • Alias

    Anacaona:
    “Heh we sound like a bunch of old ladies “back in the day” …”in my generation”…is really amazing how things can change so fast.”
    ———

    Great!
    Now, we’re not only prudes- we’re OLD prudes! :-)

    Yes, things changed right behind-my-back/ in-front of my face.
    Not that everyone was innocent back then. Herb said it somewhere above, I think- it’s that what was once shunned is now celebrated- and I’m not sure anyone’s happier for it. Perhaps they are, but I don’t think the next generation of kids will be.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Yes (shaking head in agreement.)
    I knew girls from different islands and many other immigrant girls from different parts of the world (truth be told, while growing up- I was mostly associated with immigrants or 1st gens) who had similar upbringings when it came to promiscuity. I don’t see those values remain as strong with each generation as they become more acculturated/assimilated with the mainstream culture.

    That makes me curious is because of the culture or because is about free sex finally!? I wish I could know some girls that emigrated to more conservative countries like Muslim’s countries and see if they become more conservative by generation as well I did know many studying in my country but they were just passer byes so not sure how their mainstream culture affects the others.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Now, we’re not only prudes- we’re OLD prudes!

    Sluts get out of my lawn! :D

  • pvw

    Alias and Anacanoa responding:

    I don’t see those values remain as strong with each generation as they become more acculturated/assimilated with the mainstream culture.

    My reply:

    You should see an article that just appeared in the NYT, about an all-girls’ prom at a school outside of Detroit, Michigan. These were Muslim girls who wore hijab throughout all their years of high school. They could not go to the traditional prom, so they organized an all girls prom where they could have fun with their friends. They dressed up in Western clothes, as no boys and men were allowed.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/02/us/hamtramck-high-holds-all-girl-prom.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=us

    They are first generation, of course, but will it become watered down in the future–who knows. But I have relatives who were raised like me who insist that they will raise their children with the conservative family values we were raised with. They want to forestall the assimilation.

  • Dogsquat

    Jimmy Hendricks said:

    “Follow Dogsquat’s strategy of “don’t take your pants off.” It really isn’t that difficult.”
    ____________________________________

    Jimmy, please don’t encourage women to operate such dangerous, complicated pieces of equipment without proper training and safety precautions.

    I am a professional, and I make the safe operation and maintenance of trousers look easy. To the layperson, trousers are Rube Goldberg type machines of inexplicable complexity.

  • Alias

    pvw
    Many of the girls I knew went to all-girls HS.

  • Dogsquat

    J said:

    “They don’t, Megaman–unless their celibate and that isn’t going to happen soon.

    Here’s a furthur complication that confuses young women: Some guys only want sex from a girl, but the guy who loves a woman, he’s going to want sex too. A woman can only protect herself 100% by staying away from guys who want sex. You know, everyone.”
    ___________________________________

    A guy who loves a girl will wait a long time to have sex with her. He’ll wait even longer if the girl doesn’t have a history of casual sex/ONS. He’ll wait longer still if the girl is a virgin.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat

      A guy who loves a girl will wait a long time to have sex with her. He’ll wait even longer if the girl doesn’t have a history of casual sex/ONS. He’ll wait longer still if the girl is a virgin.

      Women are going to have to bite the bullet and make guys wait in order to reduce risk. In doing so they’ll filter out most guys, especially those who aren’t in love yet, but might be down the road. Still, the only sensible strategy today is one of risk avoidance.

  • Dogsquat

    Herb said:

    “It’s not just about getting your needs met but getting your unneeds not met.

    Unneeds are things like shit tests, constant conflict, snide remarks, having to deal with a child more than an adult, etc.

    Right now I’m probably getting close to as many as my needs met as my marriage, but whereas my marriage met about 90% of my unneeds this one meets only about 10% of them.”

    ________________________________

    Dude, I hate to admit it, but…..you’ve got a point there.

    Somebody else put something like this up:

    Good Relationship > Single > Bad Relationship

    At least for me, getting into a good relationship took a hell of a lot of work. Most of that work benefited me in other ways, but it was still work.

    There are days, as I get deeper and deeper into my current relationship where I think,”Holy shit. If I get cheated on or something, there’s no way I could get it together enough to try again.”

    I think it’d be a lot easier to go weapons-grade PUA or just slide into the MGTOW lifestyle.

  • Alias

    Anacaona:
    ” Sluts get out of my lawn!”
    ———

    ROFL …….!!!
    Old prude! lol
    ___________

    Anacaona:
    “That makes me curious is because of the culture or because is about free sex finally!”
    ——
    Culture, I think. The changes in value are *slower* if they adhere strictly to religious values or remain living in enclaves.
    I’ve noticed that the parents relax their views, decades later, sometimes moreso than their kids.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I’ve noticed that the parents relax their views, decades later, sometimes moreso than their kids.
    I had noticed that too. Not sure what to attribute it tough.

  • http://blog.msdsonline.com/feed/ Rosey Gray

    This the reason why hookups mostly lead to failure. Some people think of it as bubble gum that when the taste is already gone, it’s time to spit it out. It’s really important not to give yourself away that soon. Although some worked it out but it’s really rare.

  • pvw

    Anacaona:
    ” Sluts get out of my lawn!”
    ———
    Alias:

    ROFL …….!!!
    Old prude! lol
    ___________

    My reply:

    I need to perfect my “old prude look”. I think I have the answer.

    I went into work twice this past week wearing what I call my “modern orthodox” look–I once went to school with and currently live nearby a fair number of Orthodox Jewish women.

    Wednesday, navy blue long skirt about two inches above the ankle with 2″ navy pumps and white stocking; long sleeve blue and white striped oxford shirt with a blue suit vest and pearls–earrings, necklace and bracelet. Makeup: day time fashionable look.

    Friday, long reddish skirt about two inches above the ankle with 2″ black pumps and neutral stockings, black shirt to the elbows, colorful red and black scarf with matching earrings. Make-up: day time fashionable look.

    Now, I need to put on my eyeglasses and perfect my “pursed lips with a raised eyebrow” granny look when I see these hoochies on the street wearing high heels with tight dresses (if one can call it that) one inch below their behind: “Girl, go home and put some clothes on!”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PVW

      I love your description of your work outfits! Modest, yet fashionable and elegant. Very feminine too! Women just out of school in their first professional roles should aim for exactly that look, with a shorter skirt. By which I mean just above the knee.

  • pvw

    Susan:

    @PVW

    I love your description of your work outfits! Modest, yet fashionable and elegant. Very feminine too! Women just out of school in their first professional roles should aim for exactly that look, with a shorter skirt. By which I mean just above the knee.

    My reply:

    Thanks! I tend to prefer the longer skirts in the fall and spring because I’m often lecturing in front of a room of about 80+ people, and I prefer something that is not distracting as I stand in front of the lecture hall, walk around or write on the whiteboard. Otherwise, I’m wearing pantsuits or blazer with tailored slacks on colder, rainy and snowy days.

    I tend to wear skirts at the knee for days when I might go in for office hours or during the summer when things are more casual and I’m not teaching.

    I like looks that emphasize my face area, ie., makeup, noticeable accessories– jewelry, scarves, as I want my students’ attention to be on what I’m saying, not on what my body loooks like.

  • Ted D

    “One thing that constantly amazes me is how everyone knows the inner sex loves of 50-200 of their closes friends. How the heck do you do this? Do you talk about sex all day with everyone you meet? Is there some sort of sex discussion convention somewhere?”

    Well, now that you mention it, I do indeed know a good bit of detail about my friends sex lives. Not like “graphic” detail, but important/special/monumental type things.

    As to why? I’m the person my circle of friends comes to when they have a problem to work out. I’m actually fairly good at solving other people’s problems, and if I can’t find a solution I make a pretty decent sounding board to bounce stuff off of. I’ve talked to friends about:
    cheating
    spicing things up/board with sex
    erectile dysfunction
    Positions for better orgasms
    increasing endurance
    role play
    mild S&M

    That is a short list actually. I just know because my friends tell me. Keep in mind, for me that is only about 10 to 20 people max my entire life. I can count on one hand the people (outside of family/SO) that I call “friend”, and if I include their spouses and SOs then I’m out to around 10-12 total folks. I will chat with my friend’s friends, but if I don’t know them well enough to trust them with my wallet, kids, or SO, then they aren’t a friend to me. And if they aren’t a friend, I don’t listen to their problems. :P

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    “A guy who loves a girl will wait a long time to have sex with her. He’ll wait even longer if the girl doesn’t have a history of casual sex/ONS. He’ll wait longer still if the girl is a virgin.”

    Agreed. And yet the conventional wisdom, expressed by many (other) men here @HUS and elsewhere I’m sure, is that a) guys who show love or affection before sex are chumps; and b) guys who wait longer than 3 dates for sex are chumps. It’s almost like intentionally bad advice.

  • Dogsquat

    A PUA who waits a long time is an idiot. A guy who just wants some casual booty should not wait, either. A guy who waits and jumps through hoops for a girl with a history of ONS/casual sex is most likely setting himself up for a period of hellish introspection down the road – when the girl reveals that she used to fall flat on her back at the mere sight of certain guys – but HE had to WORK for it.

    So no, it’s not always bad advice. Most of the time, for most guys, it’s actually pretty good. That advice also insures he’ll never be taken advantage of.

    Matter of fact, waiting only makes sense if you’re wanting a relationship with a non-promiscuous girl.

  • varanus

    “I actually don’t blame women younger than me for not knowing what men might want and having cultivated some of those things (not all, but those most congruent with who she is). We’ve taught them the opposite. The only thing we’ve taught them men want is sex, so that’s all they have to offer.

    Then, these women want a husband and can’t figure out why they can’t get men to commit. They’re offering sex, which is what men want. There is clearly nothing wrong with them, as they did everything they were told would attract men.”

    I see this so often in my peers (women in their early to mid-twenties). They’ve been raised to believe that men are “simple” and “primitive” and “just want sex.” Many of them come from single parent and divorced households and have little experience relating to male family members emotionally. When they attempt to establish relationships, they operate under the (true) assumption that men want sex, but don’t understand how to meet men’s emotional needs. They offer sex, which is the only thing they’ve been instructed to offer. And then they’re hurt and bewildered when this fails to crystallize into a relationship.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Varanus

      I see this so often in my peers (women in their early to mid-twenties). They’ve been raised to believe that men are “simple” and “primitive” and “just want sex.” Many of them come from single parent and divorced households and have little experience relating to male family members emotionally.

      Welcome, and thanks for your comment. Research bears this out – both heavy drinking and promiscuity are correlated to having been raised with one parent in the home :(

      You’re so right too that we’ve raised women to see men as only “wanting one thing.” And we’ve failed to tell them about the male aversion to female sexual experience with other men.

      There is a massive disconnect between the sexes today, and the break has happened in the last 40 years. It’s as if we’ve retreated to the Dark Ages, which is an ironic result of the Sexual Revolution.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    “Matter of fact, waiting only makes sense if you’re wanting a relationship with a non-promiscuous girl.”

    As most guys want a relationship, and most girls aren’t promiscuous, that’s the group I was referring to. I don’t think it’s “good” advice period for guys trying to land relationships. Those looking to just hookup have their own set of priorities.

    But I’ve seen this blanket advice given to guys for any girl irregardless of the situation. Push for sex early, then move on if you don’t get it. In fact, I was given that advice back in college. I didn’t follow it.

  • Dogsquat

    Susan said:

    “Women are going to have to bite the bullet and make guys wait in order to reduce risk. In doing so they’ll filter out most guys, especially those who aren’t in love yet, but might be down the road. Still, the only sensible strategy today is one of risk avoidance.”
    ___________________________
    Steel on target

    I hate to sound cynical and MRA-ish here, but most women are going to have a tough time keeping a guy around while doing this. By waiting, they’re taking their biggest asset out of the bargain – at least temporarily.

    It then becomes imperative that the waiting woman bring more to the table than Super-Fun-No-No-Timez. I’ve dated a lot of girls, I work with a lot of girls, and I know a lot of girls – and many of them don’t have much else to offer. Take away sex, and relationships with them become All Downside No Fun.

    At some level the situation isn’t their fault, just as it wasn’t 100% my fault for being a beta schlub. It’s on them to fix it, though, just as fixing my crap was on me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat

      I’m researching a post and I was reading The Evolution of Human Sexuality by Donald Symons. An oldie but goodie, 1979. Anyway, he says in there that waiting is an aphrodisiac to males. Few get the opportunity to take it that far today, but I saw one shrink advise guys to wait, and then when the woman is willing, wait a few more dates. It’s also a good strategy for women because during that waiting period men are actually more predisposed to fall in love.

      We’re so into instant gratification that we wind up with blips instead of earthquakes in the sack.

  • Mike C

    Matter of fact, waiting only makes sense if you’re wanting a relationship with a non-promiscuous girl.

    +1

    Dogsquat, you are going to confuse people with these nuanced positions, especially when the optimal guy behavior is highly dependent on the likely “type” of girl he is dealing with. FWIW, my sense is guys like you and me who have been in BOTH successful monogamous LTRs and sort have been “out in the scene” (our time spent bouncing), AND have faced some relationship adversity (my ex-wife….I recall you had something similar) simply have a much broader life perspective to draw upon. If a guy has minimal experience with women, and than just lucked out with getting a successful LTR with minimal dating experience prior to that then by definition his thoughts come from a very narrow perspective.

    I’ll try to go back to shutting up now…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      I’ll try to go back to shutting up now…

      No need to do that! We like hearing from you.

  • Lokland

    @DS

    “Matter of fact, waiting only makes sense if you’re wanting a relationship with a non-promiscuous girl.”

    +1

    Let me add on that you should only want a relationshi with a non-promiscuous girl.

    “I’ve dated a lot of girls, I work with a lot of girls, and I know a lot of girls – and many of them don’t have much else to offer. Take away sex, and relationships with them become All Downside No Fun.”

    +1 again

    I don’t blame women though our culture raises people (men and women) to be about as interesting as a dead caterpillar. Women however have the added on emotional things that are inherently not worth dealing with unless your having sex with her.

  • Herb

    @varanus

    When they attempt to establish relationships, they operate under the (true) assumption that men want sex, but don’t understand how to meet men’s emotional needs. They offer sex, which is the only thing they’ve been instructed to offer. And then they’re hurt and bewildered when this fails to crystallize into a relationship.

    It also doesn’t help that our culture has so swallowed feminism whole that the idea of men with independent agents has disappeared. The male condition only matters in so far as it relates to women’s wants and needs.

    Rereading Bolick’s All the Single Ladies yesterday I was struck by this passage:

    By themselves, the cultural and technological advances that have made my stance on childbearing plausible would be enough to reshape our understanding of the modern family—but, unfortunately, they happen to be dovetailing with another set of developments that can be summed up as: the deterioration of the male condition. As Hanna Rosin laid out in these pages last year (“The End of Men,” July/August 2010), men have been rapidly declining—in income, in educational attainment, and in future employment prospects—relative to women. As of last year, women held 51.4 percent of all managerial and professional positions, up from 26 percent in 1980. Today women outnumber men not only in college but in graduate school; they earned 60 percent of all bachelor’s and master’s degrees awarded in 2010, and men are now more likely than women to hold only a high-school diploma.

    Men are clearly in decline and it’s bad for the wominzs, but what do the men think about it? Well, consider this from the infamous The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness:

    Figure 1 shows how answers to the happiness question have trended over time for men and women. The upper panel shows the raw sample proportions by gender. The top lines show that in the 1970s women were more likely than men to report being “very happy,” and this differential began to evaporate in the 1980s. The bottom two lines show that in the 1970s men and women were roughly equally likely to report being “not too happy,” and a gap emerges in the 1990s with women more likely than men to report unhappiness. Thus, the decline in women’s well-being occurs across the well-being distribution.

    Putting the manosphere, MGTOW, and PUAs aside (although perhaps they contribute to this outcome) this “decline” in men seems to have made men happier. So, men are happier with their lot on the whole, so why is it a crisis?

    Because women aren’t happy about it.

    That’s just one example of hundreds I see on a regular basis about how men only exist in terms of their utility to women. Women absorb that and “all men really want is sex anyway” and apply to ideas to finding a mate.

    Then they’re amazed men aren’t buying but sure, we’ll help ourselves to the sex thank you very much.

    Then those women complain there aren’t any good men, when what really happened is no one taught them men have wants and needs beyond sex and getting one to marry you means engaging them as people and addressing those wants and needs.

    But I have a hard time being mad at women under 35 or so for being confused. They’re just reacting as they were taught.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “Here’s the data, from a survey of over 1,000 men done by Amber Madison for her book Are All Men Assholes? (Note: No, she was very sympathetic to men.)”

    Thanks, I couldn’t remember where this came from. Hopefully, it was sufficiently random. I bet there’s a hardcore contingent who believe no woman can be sympathetic to guys unless she loathes her own gender.

    For the 1/3 of guys who admitted to doing this outside of bars, what’s their excuse? Let me guess, men are genetically hardwired to consciously deceive, and any woman who falls for it is a bimbo : |

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      Let me guess, men are genetically hardwired to consciously deceive, and any woman who falls for it is a bimbo : |

      There’s a new study out that shows men being more “morally flexible” in negotiations than women, including outright deception. It was done with several hundred business students. It’s very relevant to what we’ve been discussing, but I’m not sure I want to deal with the firestorm that will erupt if I write about it.

  • Herb

    @Dogsquat

    It then becomes imperative that the waiting woman bring more to the table than Super-Fun-No-No-Timez. I’ve dated a lot of girls, I work with a lot of girls, and I know a lot of girls – and many of them don’t have much else to offer. Take away sex, and relationships with them become All Downside No Fun.

    Hey, I get to be a broken record today:

    Women need to learn and internalize that men are people just like them with wants and needs and if they want to have a relationship with one, especially one not based on bj and vajayjay, they need to be willing to meet those needs and wants just like they expect men to do for them.

    For a variety of reasons, both benign (the lack of being show that in the broader culture) and not (feminisms insistence on viewing men only through a lens of utility to women) I’m not hopeful in the near term.

  • Lokland

    @Herb

    “Women need to learn and internalize that men are people just like them with wants and needs ”

    If you switched the genders thats the tagline for early feminism.

  • Herb

    @Megaman

    For the 1/3 of guys who admitted to doing this outside of bars, what’s their excuse? Let me guess, men are genetically hardwired to consciously deceive, and any woman who falls for it is a bimbo : |

    Nah, I think it’s more an instance of our increasing cultural acceptance of doing what you need to do to get what you want. In a way, it’s of a piece with making an ass of yourself on American Idol auditions to get on TV or creating the “no doc” (ie, liar loan) to create more mortgages you can sell to investors so you can get your commission. In each case, the long term negative effects, on yourself and others, isn’t considered worth noting because you got what you wanted right then.

  • Herb

    @Lokland

    @Herb

    “Women need to learn and internalize that men are people just like them with wants and needs ”

    If you switched the genders thats the tagline for early feminism.

    Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

  • J

    @Alias

    I’ve also known other non-Hispanic immigrants who hold/held? similar core values, although I’ve seen some of that dissipate too.

    I understand. On my dad’s side, I belong to one of those immigrant groups with similar values that has now assimiliated into the mainstream.

  • J

    @PVW

    I looked at the prom article. My guess is that it signals the beginning of the assimilation process. As those girls go to college, many will meet and marry non-Muslims, which will erode the culture tremendously.

  • J

    Jimmy Hendricks said:

    “Follow Dogsquat’s strategy of “don’t take your pants off.” It really isn’t that difficult.”
    ____________________________________

    Jimmy, please don’t encourage women to operate such dangerous, complicated pieces of equipment without proper training and safety precautions.

    Yeah, that’s cute and funny and all, but with the average age of menarch at 12 and dropping and with the average age of marriage at 25 or 26, do you really expect that women are going to keep it zipped for 14 years?

  • Herb

    @J

    Yeah, that’s cute and funny and all, but with the average age of menarch at 12 and dropping and with the average age of marriage at 25 or 26, do you really expect that women are going to keep it zipped for 14 years?

    Why not?

    Seriously, why not?

    We expect a lot of people to a do a lot of very hard things. How is this different?

    Hell, we could even expect men to do it too.

  • J

    I’ve noticed that the parents relax their views, decades later, sometimes moreso than their kids.
    I had noticed that too. Not sure what to attribute it tough.

    Lack of responsibility. My parents, who were pretty strict with me, were so much cooler with my kids–becasue they weren’t responsible for them.

  • J

    Hell, we could even expect men to do it too.

    Shush, Herb. Quiet before they hurt you….

    But srsly, if my friends’ daughters are any indication, most would have held of longer if they thought marriage was forthcoming. Instead, they expect their male peers are going to screw around until about 30.

  • Abbot

    The following facts regarding how men really think and act infuriate promiscuous women and feminists beyond just about anything else that infuriates them:
    .
    “A guy who loves a girl will wait a long time to have sex with her. He’ll wait even longer if the girl doesn’t have a history of casual sex/ONS. He’ll wait longer still if the girl is a virgin.”
    .
    “A guy who waits and jumps through hoops for a girl with a history of ONS/casual sex is most likely setting himself up for a period of hellish introspection down the road – when the girl reveals that she used to fall flat on her back at the mere sight of certain guys – but HE had to WORK for it.”
    .
    “Matter of fact, waiting only makes sense if you’re wanting a relationship with a non-promiscuous girl.”
    .
    ________________________________

    “I’d love to know how you can verify someone’s sexual history. Is it a matter of public record? Maybe it should be : )”
    .
    Slut-pride suddenly becomes slut-hide due to fear of rejection from the very same people [aka men] whom they claim to be equal to
    .
    Men will continue to hone the art of slut-telling. Look for future websites where techniques and general advice are shared.
    .
    “If you do the stupid thing and marry a woman with 16 prior partners (freely entertained, of course!), your risk of suffering a humiliating divorce raping goes up to 80%.”
    .
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/08/02/identifying-sluts-the-science/
    .
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/12/29/its-easy-to-identify-a-slut/

  • J

    pvw–I’ve rocked that look!

  • Abbot

    Here it is all in one sentence. First time ever:
    .
    “The only thing that really concerns me is that women are taught that expressing, exploring and embracing their own sexuality is wrong.”
    .
    Fucking awesome, yes?
    .
    http://nevadasagebrush.com/blog/2011/02/21/opinion-slut-shaming-demeans-women-perpetuates-double-standards/
    .
    The ONLY way a person could use such terms regarding women in their writing is if they read feminist articles and literature. It exists nowhere else. So be aware of the agenda of the person attempting to deliver the propaganda.

  • Herb

    @J

    Shush, Herb. Quiet before they hurt you….

    But srsly, if my friends’ daughters are any indication, most would have held of longer if they thought marriage was forthcoming. Instead, they expect their male peers are going to screw around until about 30.

    Well, the marriage thing, as we discussed earlier, is a chicken and egg thing. So many women don’t want to marry until 30, nominally to establish careers, but a lot will admit to “wanting to have fun first.” So they are both signaling an intent to wait to men and signaling a belief that marriage is a chore they want to avoid (which is interesting put against Lokland’s comment about my earlier post being early feminism in reverse as this seems to be a 60/70s male view).

    Hell, a lot of women come across as more interested in getting marriage (ie, big party centered on them) than being married. Sometimes I wonder if we instituted Sweet 26, Sweet 36, etc parties is a majority of women would lose all interest in marriage.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope
  • J

    asshole Game from the famous artist (could be Roissy!).

    Did you realize that was Jorma (Lonely Island –I jizz in my ants) Taccone and that he sort of looked like JimWeidmann in douchey style wardrobe and past face? I wonder if she’s read Roissy or just knows the type.

    As I said in my post about the show, it’s exposing pretty lies – in this case, the lie that sex is empowerment, and that women can have sex like men. The young women I know are all getting hooked, and in my view, they’re getting valuable information in every episode. It’s like an awesome sex ed class.

    And don’t think that Lena Dunham is not aware of what’s going on and not intentionally exposing this. There’s no glorification of the lifestyle or SMP; she shows it (HPV) warts and all. That she is as insightful and aware at her age as she is AND is able to portray the pitfalls of the current SMP in such an effective and non-preachy manner is amazing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      That she is as insightful and aware at her age as she is AND is able to portray the pitfalls of the current SMP in such an effective and non-preachy manner is amazing.

      The Guardian had a live chat with Amanda Marcotte and Amanda Hess about the show. I checked out the transcript and it was unbelievable. Marcotte says she loves the show, and that Dunham is exposing what lengths women are forced to go to in order to please men. She accuses Charlie of objectifying Marnie by putting her on a pedestal.

  • J

    #Herb #296

    I agree there’s a vicious cycle and I also think the bad economy and inablity to find an entry-level without a degree makes things worse.

    As to the “more interested in getting marriage than being married” thing, I don’t know. I hear guys say this a lot, even IRL. There’s certainly a lot reality TV based on that idea (Say Yes to the Dress, Bridezilla). However, IRL, I don’t see many girls who evince that attitude. That may be a function of who I run with though.

    Being married is more work than simply having an excuse for a party justifies IMO, but then– full disclosure–I hated being a bride and I like being part of a couple. It’s very hard work though. If you don’t want the relationship then there’s no ROI.

    If all a woman really wants is the party, she’d be a hell of a lot better off with a Sweet 26 party.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Now, I need to put on my eyeglasses and perfect my “pursed lips with a raised eyebrow” granny look when I see these hoochies on the street wearing high heels with tight dresses (if one can call it that) one inch below their behind: “Girl, go home and put some clothes on!”

    You rule!!! Very good luck and lines my “old prude” uniform would be something closer to Madea for some reason I think if Madea tell women to put some clothes on they will listen. Sadly I will need a lot of work before I can look scary. I’m so non threatening that a mouse will probably beat me and steal my food before running away…laughing. :(

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Herb
    I have had two weddings with the same guy and I love it I told my husband that I want to renew our vows every ten years anniversary. Not all the “wedding lovers” are planning to ditch their men at least I don’t.

  • J

    I hate to sound cynical and MRA-ish here, but most women are going to have a tough time keeping a guy around while doing this. By waiting, they’re taking their biggest asset out of the bargain – at least temporarily

    And that’s one big reason why they don’t do it. Unless you live in an isolated group were arranged marrriages are the norm and there’s no three date rule, women who hold out are afraid of losing out. It takes more confidence than most women have.

  • Abbot

    “we’ve failed to tell them about the male aversion to female sexual experience with other men.”
    .
    The universal aversion

  • Iggles

    Megaman:


    “A guy who loves a girl will wait a long time to have sex with her. He’ll wait even longer if the girl doesn’t have a history of casual sex/ONS. He’ll wait longer still if the girl is a virgin.”

    Agreed. And yet the conventional wisdom, expressed by many (other) men here @HUS and elsewhere I’m sure, is that a) guys who show love or affection before sex are chumps; and b) guys who wait longer than 3 dates for sex are chumps. It’s almost like intentionally bad advice.

    +1

    Damned if you do, damned if you don’t!

    How one chooses to navigate the SMP is their own choice. No advice is one size fits all. We all have to do what works best for us.

    Myself, I’d rather remain single then have to have sex on the third date just to be “considered” as a relationship prospect. I would be filtered out by any guy who had that rule, but I see it as the lesser of two evils. I’d rather not put myself in the vulnerable position of not knowing where I stand with a guy afterward, because I know it’s something that emotionally I wouldn’t recover from easily.

    I’m the type of person if you say, “Yuck, this soda doesn’t taste right. Here, try it!” I would respond, “No thanks!”

  • Tasmin

    @Mega-Dog-Varanus-MikeC-Lookland-Herb
    Just a great exchange between posts #271-281. Clip these and print-out in pamphlets for women. Answers to many of the (apparent) mysteries of men, including where all of the “good” men have gone – are going…

    @Lookland #281
    “Women need to learn and internalize that men are people just like them with wants and needs ”

    -I agree, but unfortunately the feminist editors, morphed it into this:

    “Men need to learn and internalize that Women are [superior] people with wants and needs [that men should strive to meet]”

    My first instinct is to think that the pendulum has just swung too far and will someday find equilibrium, but the problem is that the pendulum, and modern feminism is zero-sum. Feminism has manifested in ways that have increased opportunity and “equality” by limiting/taking from men, all while upholding the “traditional” expectations pressed onto men. I.e. the expectation that men should subordinate their needs-wants-desires in favor of this “equality” as well as the (ever-changing-expanding) needs of the family, present and future. As a man, to provide is an obligation. For a woman it is a prerogative. The increased competition, structurally reduced options, and superiority brainwashing that men have endured are not counterbalanced with an equitable exchange into alternative roles or opportunities – at least not without great pain, significant risk, and a voluntary write-down of his status.

    While initially men were reluctant to absorb the added competition in school and the marketplace, I think that at this point most men are not in favor of a clawback – a return to 1950, but would actually be quite content with real equality, one in which opportunity, expectations, obligations, and prerogatives are truly pulled from the same bucket by both genders.

    The challenge is that mens status in the eyes of women, call it SMV/MMV/social proof whatever, is still tied to the traditional expectations, roles, and obligations. And *most* of the gains for women, which seem to have been at the expense of men, have similarly garnered them very little, if any, bump in status-smv-mmv in the eyes of men.

    So while I totally get that statements about wants and needs can be easily flipped, the difference is in how those needs/wants are structured into the system and at what cost, that is, are those wants/needs coming from the heart or are they constructs of an out-of-control system of superiority and entitlement? And of course, who is paying for them and with what capital?

    The lies of feminism are based on the propagation of artificial wants/needs of women coupled with the continued subordination and devaluing of mens wants/needs. So I would argue that men are not asking for anything more than what they have always wanted/needed, while women are (often unknowingly) asking for wants and needs they have been told they want/need in addition to those that they have always wanted/needed. Men are responding accordingly.

    In fact the growing response for both men and women seems to trapeze between a fractured set of needs/wants: sex, emotional intimacy, relationships, self-indulgence, self-sacrifice etc. What was once a sit-down meal (marriage) is now a Vegas buffet. What was once viewed as work+risk=rewards is now, work+risk+risk>rewards, a la “get mine while I can”…

    Anyhow, enough of that. I just wanted to be one more (male) voice that says if I am willing-ready-wanting of a relationship, I will not be pressing for sex in the first three dates, or any other timeline. IOI’s: yes; Escalating physically: yes, (but perhaps slower than she might expect these days); expecting-pushing for sex: no. Women who give it up under these expectations or who claim to have needs (want sex) and put that need/want above the need/want of a relationship/marriage are eating from the buffet while expecting the candle lit table for two. Same goes for men really, but with so much more risk in the system and very little in terms of access to the rewards (other than sex of course), it is hardly a surprise the “get mine” wins out.

  • Abbot
  • Ted D

    J – “Yeah, that’s cute and funny and all, but with the average age of menarch at 12 and dropping and with the average age of marriage at 25 or 26, do you really expect that women are going to keep it zipped for 14 years?”

    There is no reason a young woman cannot make it to marriage with 4 or less sexual partners. In 14 years, assuming she started having sex as soon as her period kicked in, that is a new guy about every 3.5 years. To me 4 relationships that lasted 3+ years that included physical relations is no big deal and completely normal. And I would not disqualify any women based on that number and situation. In fact, I would see her history as a good sign that she has some knowledge and skill being in a relationship.

    I have no sympathy for women (or men) that don’t want a relationship but still want to “scratch the itch”. I see no reason why anyone would put off being serious simply because it might not be convenient at the moment. It isn’t convenient for me to have to work 8am to 4:30pm every day, but I get my ass up and go anyway.

  • Herb

    @Tasmin

    My first instinct is to think that the pendulum has just swung too far and will someday find equilibrium, but the problem is that the pendulum, and modern feminism is zero-sum. Feminism has manifested in ways that have increased opportunity and “equality” by limiting/taking from men, all while upholding the “traditional” expectations pressed onto men. I.e. the expectation that men should subordinate their needs-wants-desires in favor of this “equality” as well as the (ever-changing-expanding) needs of the family, present and future. As a man, to provide is an obligation. For a woman it is a prerogative.

    At the risk of creating a shit storm, the iconic feminist issues are the perfect illustration: abortion and child support.

    As it stands in the US now it is an infringement on her rights to require a married woman to inform her husband she’s getting an abortion. That’s how absolute we’ve determined the right to abort a child is.

    However, under no condition can a man select to not provide support for a child of his genetic linage (and in some cases, not of his genetic linage).

    So, we can build a matrix of pregnancy effects:

    Neither wants a child: child is aborted and everyone is happy.
    Both want child: child is born and everyone is happy.
    Man wants child, woman doesn’t: child is aborted and woman is happy.
    Woman wants child, man doesn’t: child is born, woman is happy, and man pays for the woman’s choice.

    At every point the man’s desires are subordinate to the woman and in one, the woman gets not only to act without respect to his desires but charge him for the privilege .

    And trust me, when men want equalize by allowing for male abortion (ie, denial of paternity responsibilities) the first one manning the barricades to stop it are Feminists. Their argument is that it is unfair to women and, in the grandest of ironies, that men should think about it before they have sex.

    When I used to like to bait feminists I pointed out that the fact a man could consider the risk of a woman getting pregnant in determining to have sex but the woman who would get pregnant apparently couldn’t and needed available abortion proved men were superior.

  • Herb

    @Ted_D

    I have no sympathy for women (or men) that don’t want a relationship but still want to “scratch the itch”. I see no reason why anyone would put off being serious simply because it might not be convenient at the moment. It isn’t convenient for me to have to work 8am to 4:30pm every day, but I get my ass up and go anyway.

    There is a post (at the Spearhead I believe) about how men learn to “shovel the effing gravel”. It seems to be a fundamental difference between men and women in the west, the ability to see what needs to be done and just do it.

    @Susan Walsh

    Marcotte says she loves the show, and that Dunham is exposing what lengths women are forced to go to in order to please men. She accuses Charlie of objectifying Marnie by putting her on a pedestal.

    And this surprises you?

    Marcotte essentially thinks men are evil at best even if she doesn’t say it outright and she’s pretty mainstream, not feminist mainstream but culturally mainstream.

    Any man who fails to provide exactly what a woman wants, when she wants it, regardless of how well she communicates her desires and regardless of his wants and needs is wrong and objectifying women and a tool of the patriarchy.

    I’ve had that discussion, more or less, too many times to count. When asked if I knew a woman in another town where I worked and who I shared interests I joked, “no, but do you have her number?”. I then got a lecture about women not existing just for men’s benefit and was kicked out of a yoga studio where I was the most dedicated member.

  • Mike C

    Note: I have not seen the show

    The Guardian had a live chat with Amanda Marcotte and Amanda Hess about the show. I checked out the transcript and it was unbelievable. Marcotte says she loves the show, and that Dunham is exposing what lengths women are forced to go to in order to please men.

    I guess in art people will interpret what they see to conform to their existing worldview. Of course, the absurdities are plentiful in this statement they make. Are not women empowered? They have the agency to simply WALK AWAY from any situation they deem unacceptable. The problem with an Amanda Marcotte type is she can’t analyze things through the perspective of market dynamics, and absolutely cannot look in the mirror and realize what *some* female behavior says about the intrinsic motivations of women as a gender. It is much easier and more convenient to once again reframe everything as women being victimized by men even when they apparently do so without any force or compulsion but totally of their own free will.

    She accuses Charlie of objectifying Marnie by putting her on a pedestal.

    Haha….this is almost stupidly surreal. I’m convinced feminists have about 3-5 words they just love. And they whip them out at every turn, even when the make absolutely no sense in the context or situation being described. Objectification is one of those words. Every single thing a guy does that is “wrong” from her view is somehow an “objectification”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J, @Mike C

      Here is the link to the Guardian article – the live chat is at the bottom.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/apr/27/girls-live-chat-episode-three

      Re Marcotte’s accusing Charlie (he’s described as being *too* great a boyfriend) of objectification, it reminds me of her disdain for Nice Guys. She accuses them of being spoiled and entitled, believing that they should get to have sex with anyone they want, which is the only reason they resent the Friend Zone. She strikes me as being at a sociopathic level of lacking empathy.

      What’s brilliant about the show is its incisive portrayal of SMP dynamics, including Game. I assure you Roissy would endorse it wholeheartedly (or he should). In one corner, we have Charlie, cute, sweet, an ideal boyfriend, but too pussy whipped. His gf Marnie of 4 years is literally begging him to “be a man and tell her to fuck off.” It’s clear that she’s going to dump him soon.

      In the other corner we have Adam, a total dick. He never answers Hannah’s texts, so she dresses up and goes over to his apartment, calling from the sidewalk below. They have the kind of sex in which he tells her to be quiet, and in the most recent episode, turns away and smushes her face during sex so he doesn’t have to look at her. After sex, he squeezes her belly and back fat like it’s Playdoh. It’s strictly no-strings, and no fun for her, but she describes him as her boyfriend to others.

      Enter Boothe Jonathan, a pretentious NYC artist of advanced years and small stature. He’s got Game – after Marnie tingles visibly in his presence he says to her, “The first time I fuck you I might scare you a little, because I’m a man, and I know how to do things.” Dunham says a guy actually used that line on her, then confessed he had learned it from his friend at Vice Magazine. In any case, it get’s Marnie so hot she rushes to the ladies room to masturbate.

      Seriously, everyone should watch this show!

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    As it stands in the US now it is an infringement on her rights to require a married woman to inform her husband she’s getting an abortion. That’s how absolute we’ve determined the right to abort a child is.

    I was completely surprised when during my first visit to the doctor for the pregnancy where my beloved was with me I was asked if I wanted him on the same room or not. I imagined that this was for single mothers that came with a friend, or something like it. I know I’m naive, I did some research and then found out about this. Is amazing in my culture you have to beg a man to get involved with the pregnancy and the kids in here it looks like they do a great effort to try to kick them out, so weird.

  • Abbot

    “As it stands in the US now it is an infringement on her rights to require a married woman to inform her husband she’s getting an abortion.”
    .
    But according to Marcotte, women +somehow+ are getting this signal that their bodies belong to their husbands.
    .
    “The way female sexuality is policed in a way male sexuality isn’t, sending the signal that women’s very bodies are the property of eventual spouses”
    .
    — Amanda Marcotte

  • J

    There is no reason a young woman cannot make it to marriage with 4 or less sexual partners. In 14 years, assuming she started having sex as soon as her period kicked in, that is a new guy about every 3.5 years.

    That’s not unreasonable, Ted. In fact, it’s about the number of partners that the average American woman has had.

    Waiting for someone to add, “Multiply any number a woman gives you by three.”

    In five, four, three…

  • J

    The Guardian had a live chat with Amanda Marcotte and Amanda Hess about the show.

    Link?

    Marcotte says she loves the show, and that Dunham is exposing what lengths women are forced to go to in order to please men.

    I can see that reading in that Hannah is a people pleaser with low self-esteem, as was Aura in Tiny Furniture. Jessa is pretty much a slut though, and I don’t throw that term around lightly.

    She accuses Charlie of objectifying Marnie by putting her on a pedestal.

    LOL. That’s a way harder sell. I think Hannah’s comments are more relevant when she says he “has a vagina,” but is also wistful about what it must be liked to be “loved so much.”

    Charlie is a male Hannah, a people pleaser punching above his weight class

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    A guy who loves a girl will wait a long time to have sex with her. He’ll wait even longer if the girl doesn’t have a history of casual sex/ONS. He’ll wait longer still if the girl is a virgin.

    and this:

    Women are going to have to bite the bullet and make guys wait in order to reduce risk. In doing so they’ll filter out most guys, especially those who aren’t in love yet, but might be down the road. Still, the only sensible strategy today is one of risk avoidance.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Megaman

    Agreed. And yet the conventional wisdom, expressed by many (other) men here @HUS and elsewhere I’m sure, is that a) guys who show love or affection before sex are chumps; and b) guys who wait longer than 3 dates for sex are chumps. It’s almost like intentionally bad advice.

    It’s conventional because by and large, most girls in their sexual prime lose respect and attraction for a guy who expresses emotional intimacy before things have become physical.

    The girls rejecting them are the ones viewing them as chumps, not the guys giving the advice.

  • Alias

    Susan:
    “Alias
    That eharmony article was fascinating – I was surprised how clearly meeting in a bar stood out as a poor strategy. High loss of attraction, highest divorce rate. This must say something about personality traits of people who frequent bars, even the ones who are looking to meet someone there.”
    ————-

    Yeah, I don’t know what’s happened to the other articles with those stats?
    weird.
    The personality trait is–
    poor strategy + my soul-mate will fall right onto my lap after I down a few shots.

  • Ted D

    J – “That’s not unreasonable, Ted. In fact, it’s about the number of partners that the average American woman has had.”

    Be careful. If you start accusing me of being reasonable, you’ll ruin my reputation as an unreasonable old grouch. :P

    A couple of things I’d like to throw out:

    Although we both seem to believe this is reasonable, I have seen here and other places many times how unreasonable this is. (I mean, we can’t possibly have college kids forming relationships. What happens after graduation when they have to split? /sarcasm off.) Why is this a big deal? If you are graduating, you can go any damn where in the world you want to get a job. How about you both look, and the first one to land something good takes the other along for the ride to a new city? Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

    Perhaps it is because of where I live and/or socioeconomic status, but most of the young girls I know in HS or just out are already at or around the 4 partner number. A few of my daughters friends hit that before they graduated from HS. I’ve seen the stats, but I can tell you that although it may play out that women on average end up at around 4-5 partners, there are pockets where that is so uncommon that you might have a better shot at finding a virgin. Seems for whatever reason, the Pittsburgh Metro area is such a pocket.

    I can completely agree that it is unreasonable to expect people to wait 14 years to have sex. But, I disagree that it is unreasonable to expect them to get into and stay in LTRs during those 14 years. The fact that they don’t, and that many intentionally avoid relationships for those years is troubling to me. Why is it that LTRs are “too much work” while in college? Did the curriculum get much more difficult in the last 10 years? Do people have less hours in the day? It is exactly this attitude that perpetuates the “wait until I’m 30 to think about marriage” train of thought, which seems to be a losing proposition for many.

    Is it not possible to pursue education/career goals WHILE maintaining a LTR? They don’t seem to be related, and I find it hard to believe there isn’t enough time. Although, I’m sure it is difficult when someone spends all their free time drinking/partying/”having fun”. Yeah, responsibility is no fun, but it’s life. Isn’t college supposed to be preparation for the real world?

  • J

    @Ana #313

    I can go you one better. When I was in the ER rolling around in pain last month, one of the nurses interrupted the backrub my husband was giving me to ask if I felt “safe at home.”

    Last year in the same ER, a doctor asked my kid if I gave him his concussion (atheletic accident). My son replied that I never hit him, I just burn him with cigarettes. I laughed and said that I don’t smoke, but the doctor made my son roll up his sleeves to check for burns. He reprimanded my kid for messing with him and said, “This isn’t funny.” I replied, “No, it’s ridiculous. I know that you’re a mandatory reporter, but sometimes this stuff goes too far.”

  • Alias

    J:
    “Lack of responsibility. My parents, who were pretty strict with me, were so much cooler with my kids–becasue they weren’t responsible for them.”
    ———-

    Yeah, you may have a point when it comes to their grandchildren or other people’s kids, but some do this with their younger children. Perhaps they’re just worn out.
    Do you think the difference in your parents is also because you have boys?

  • Herb

    @Ana

    I was completely surprised when during my first visit to the doctor for the pregnancy where my beloved was with me I was asked if I wanted him on the same room or not. I imagined that this was for single mothers that came with a friend, or something like it. I know I’m naive, I did some research and then found out about this. Is amazing in my culture you have to beg a man to get involved with the pregnancy and the kids in here it looks like they do a great effort to try to kick them out, so weird.

    I can beat that in a way that goes to your convo with Ozy about the 40 yo man/14 yo girl.

    If a 40 yo woman has sex with a 14 yo boy and gets pregnant, even though she committed statutory rape, she can sue for child support from her victim. We even have case law upholding this in at least one state.

    In pursuit of female autonomy and male responsibility when it comes to reproduction we’ve gotten plain fucked up.

  • J

    Ted, I think your post is spot on That’s why I think serial monogamy is preferable to random sexual activity.

    As to kids–male or female– having sex in high school, I am absolutely against it. I’m sure there are some male commenters who will castigatee me for not wanting my son’s to be players in high school, but boys lack the emotional and financial wherewithal to deal with the long-range consequences of fatherhood or with the pain of having a child aborted or adopted away.

  • Alias

    Dogsquat:
    “but most women are going to have a tough time keeping a guy around while doing this. By waiting, they’re taking their biggest asset out of the bargain – at least temporarily”
    ————-

    The waiting period is supposed to bide time for getting to know his character/intentions/whether he’s relationship-minded and also to demonstrate that you have other qualities you can offer besides sex, that you’re compatible, etc..

    It’s no different than a guy waiting to establish something serious before he invests large sums of his money.

    There can be demonstrations of physical affection without sex, it’s not like you’ll be meeting behind a glass divider or anything.
    You’re simply holding off on making a big investment until you know the return will be worthwhile.

  • Alias

    “it’s not like you’ll be meeting behind a glass divider or anything.”
    ———

    Just a reminder that this is a RED flag for anyone who might miss that one. lol

  • Herb

    @Alias

    Just a reminder that this is a RED flag for anyone who might miss that one. lol

    It is? I could swear for a lot of women it’s a display of higher value if the man is the one behind the glass.

    No smilely enough though I’m making a joke because there is sadly more than a little truth in it.

  • Alias

    Iggles:
    “Myself, I’d rather remain single then have to have sex on the third date just to be “considered” as a relationship prospect. I would be filtered out by any guy who had that rule, but I see it as the lesser of two evils. ”
    ——–

    You can always counter by requesting he place a down payment on a car for you by the 3rd date. lol
    Seriously, if you don’t sleep around and he’s expecting you to, you’re not compatible- period. In a perfect world- people would be upfront about their intentions and not waste each other’s time. sigh

  • Herb

    @Alias

    You can always counter by requesting he place a down payment on a car for you by the 3rd date. lol

    I like it, but I’d change it to “prove you have three months salary for the engagement ring” (while I think that standard is asinine, this is a perfect use for it).

  • Alias

    Herb:
    “It is? I could swear for a lot of women it’s a display of higher value if the man is the one behind the glass.”
    ——

    That’s another red flag right there.
    I hope you know to steer away from these women.
    Just keep on driving, unless, God forbid, you’re ever in the position where they let you make that ONE phone call- only then, sir, only then.

  • Alias

    Herb:
    “I like it, but I’d change it to “prove you have three months salary for the engagement ring” (while I think that standard is asinine, this is a perfect use for it).”
    ——

    NOW you tell me?
    Too little too late. ha

  • J

    IDK, Alias. I just know the boys could do no wrong as far as my folks were concerned.

  • J

    @SW

    Re Marcotte’s accusing Charlie (he’s described as being *too* great a boyfriend) of objectification, it reminds me of her disdain for Nice Guys. She accuses them of being spoiled and entitled, believing that they should get to have sex with anyone they want, which is the only reason they resent the Friend Zone. She strikes me as being at a sociopathic level of lacking empathy.

    Well there ARE so-called nice guys who feel entitled to sex, but Charlie’s not one of them.

    In the other corner we have Adam, a total dick. … It’s strictly no-strings, and no fun for her, but she describes him as her boyfriend to others.

    Hannah’s best line to Adam: “I almost came.” So telling, so decriptive of the SMP…all that bullshit to be with someone who doesn’t make you come.

    In any case, it get’s Marnie so hot she rushes to the ladies room to masturbate.

    How badly did you want to slap her?

    Seriously, everyone should watch this show!

    Cosigned!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      “I almost came.”

      It was even better! A completely sincere, “That was really good. I almost came.” His offering her an orange Gatorade at that point was priceless.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Susan and J, well, to be honest, the show sounds more and more awful the more I hear about it. I’m cringing just reading the dialogue.

    Maybe because I am way closer in age to these girls, and I am not far enough removed from it? I just can’t use my empathy to identify with those girls, because to do so would make me feel even worse.

    Plus, if that’s an accurate portrayal of what other girls my age actually tingle for, no wonder things are so messed up! Ugh. /sadface

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      I do not think you would like it. I’m cheering it on because it confirms my own world view, and she’s the first writer to tell it like it is, instead of all those FWB movies that have the alpha guy begging the girl to be in a relationship with him. I used to want to throw things at the TV when I watched Sex and the City. I feel more sympathetic with this show.

  • J

    @SW–I love these comments from the Guardian link:

    “Although after their evening encounter, Marnie quickly escorts herself to the nearest ladies’ room to relieve all of her sexual frustrations. Ironically, this is the first seemingly “enjoyable” sexual experience in the entire series so far.”

    “In Girls, women’s bodies do not have to be strictly funny or strictly sexy, which may be this new show’s boldest stroke. Instead, they are emotionally complicated: one more source, in the uncertain landscape of post-college life, of anxieties and self-doubt.”

    “But Girls is less an extension of Sex and the City than it is a response to it – a tacit and even subversive acknowledgement that the sex lives of young post-feminist women are bleak. In Hannah’s relationship, we see how the hook-up culture degrades girls. In Marnie’s, we see how it degrades guys.”

  • J

    No Hope, you’ll love it. I promise!

    It’s an indictment of the SMP, not an endorsement. It’s not a post-college SATC; it’s about what happens when the SATC dream doesn’t come true. It’s sad but it would only reinforce your values.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    Susan and J, well, to be honest, the show sounds more and more awful the more I hear about it. I’m cringing just reading the dialogue.

    Maybe because I am way closer in age to these girls, and I am not far enough removed from it?

    I’m twenty years and a penis removed from them and I have been having the same reaction.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    Re Marcotte’s accusing Charlie (he’s described as being *too* great a boyfriend) of objectification, it reminds me of her disdain for Nice Guys. She accuses them of being spoiled and entitled, believing that they should get to have sex with anyone they want, which is the only reason they resent the Friend Zone.

    As opposed to the PUAs who treat women like shit because they feel entitled to have sex with whoever they want and have learned that treating women like shit is fairly good at achieving that end.

    Yeah, boy, got to get rid of those nice guys.

  • J

    Ah, Gatorade, the beverage of love….I’ve gotta start keeping a bottle on the nightstand.

    Adam drinks Gatorade because he works out a lot, because he’s a former fat boy and sort of a male “butterface,” which qualifies him to make fun of Hannah’s weight. He’s both sadly damaged AND prickish, like a little baby Roissy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      He’s both sadly damaged AND prickish, like a little baby Roissy.

      Haha, you can’t have both Adam and Boothe be Roissy! Maybe Adam can be Roosh?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    J, I guess it’s not my thing. There is NEVER a portrayal of a happy, healthy and good relationship between young people in the mainstream media. It always has to be “interesting” to be entertaining, ironic to be hip, and totally dysfunctional to get critics to love it.

    I grew up watching this kind of horrible junk and thought it was “normal.” As stupid as that is, that is what a new generation of girls must be thinking. It might seem like an indictment, but it’s still very subtle brainwashing. I never had good rolemodels in my personal life, so I didn’t have a fully healthy relationship until I met my husband.

    Shows like these are poison imo.

  • J

    Herb,

    I’m asking this seriously, “What’s not to like?”

  • J

    There is NEVER a portrayal of a happy, healthy and good relationship between young people in the mainstream media. It always has to be “interesting” to be entertaining, ironic to be hip, and totally dysfunctional to get critics to love it.

    That is true, we don’t see a lot of normal relationships portrayed in the media, and it would help people to see more of that. OTOH, DH and I recently got season tickets to the opera. We’ve seen one about a courtesan (Manon), one about a cad tricking a woman into sex, getting her pregnant and abadoning her (Faust), and one in which a tyrant attempts to steal a loyal wife from her husband (Rosalinda). Happy families aren’t dramatic.

    I grew up watching this kind of horrible junk and thought it was “normal.” …

    I understand. I’ll rescind my endorsement for you, but I’d still force my hypothetical daughter watch it with me as I said repeatedly, “See, this is what happens when you’re stupid.”

  • this is Jen

    Adam drinks Gatorade because he works out a lot, because he’s a former fat boy
    and sort of a male “butterface,” which qualifies him to make fun of Hannah’s
    weight. He’s both sadly damaged AND prickish, like a little baby Roissy.
    ————————————-

    He’s way more than prick ISH…ewww Everyone should stay far far away from him.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    More ranting on this subject. In early high school I was watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Felicity, and Gilmore Girls. Shows like these aren’t new. The trajectory is always the same: at first there’s “The One” love interest, then soon it turns into another guy, and another guy, and another guy… always situations involving tears. Felicity was hooking up in college with a bunch of guys even though she turned down Ivy League to go to NYU for her “The One.” Anyway, eventually I lost track, stopped caring and quit watching. I don’t know how any of those shows actually ended.

    In college I stayed with one guy in a dysfunctional relationship through all four years, and continued to be with the same guy for three years after graduation. Finally I met some women in real life who had good, healthy relationships, and I realized just how brainwashed I was by the idea that all relationships always had to be full of drama, upset, fighting and tears. The relationship I had was not “normal.” I didn’t have a mother or father who told me any of these things. And all of my female friends were doing stupid stuff, too.

    Since these are TV shows, and stories are all fictional anyway, they could totally put in characters who are happy, good and living the ideal romance. But they never do. Never. In Girls, where is the young couple that is happily in love with each other, showing the young folks watching how it’s really supposed to be done and providing a contrast to these other awful people? Nowhere to be seen. I bet such a couple never materializes on the show, because that wouldn’t be “authentic.” The typical drama on TV just makes me sick these days.

    /rant off

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hope, did you ever watch Everwood? I loved that show.

  • this is Jen

    I understand. I’ll rescind my endorsement for you, but I’d still force my
    hypothetical daughter watch it with me as I said repeatedly, “See, this is what
    happens when you’re stupid.”
    ————————————————————

    and when you don’t listen to your mother

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Hope
    There is NEVER a portrayal of a happy, healthy and good relationship between young people in the mainstream media.

    Going by people’s comments, I think that the redeeming aspect of Girls is that it is not afraid to call dysfunctional relationships dysfunctional. It’s certainly not presenting them as normal, happy, healthy or good.

  • Herb

    @J

    Herb,

    I’m asking this seriously, “What’s not to like?”

    Uhm, context…I think I missed a staff meeting.

    Do you mean Girls? The sad and clueless played for laughs quit being my thing years ago.

  • Emily

    Tbf,

    In terms of viewing material, happy/stable relationships ARE kind of “boring”. I’m very happy with my relationship with my bf, but it would make for a pretty awful show. (…does anybody want to watch two people cuddling and watching South Park? :P) It’s usually the conflict that drives a story. I’m just glad that this show portrays the shittier side of hookup culture.

    I do wonder if Hannah would be more appreciative of a bf like Charlie. The only thing is that her “Charlie” (her natural assortative mating counterpart) would have a lower SMV than Adam.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Emily

      In terms of viewing material, happy/stable relationships ARE kind of “boring”

      Drama = conflict. Always. I’d rather watch it on TV than in my own life :)

      The only thing is that her “Charlie” (her natural assortative mating counterpart) would have a lower SMV than Adam.

      You think so? I find him sort of physically repulsive. I love how he’s a player anyway, though.

  • INTJ

    I haven’t seen enough of Shoshanna’s character to make a judgement about her (her heart seems to be in the right place, but with her intelligence, I’m curious to see what sort of choices she makes).

    Jessa is a slut. Hannah is simply pathetic. Marnie is the most likable character of the three. It’s unfortunate that there isn’t anyone there to show Charlie how to respect himself without being an asshole, and that there isn’t anyone to point out to Marnie how much better off she is with Charlie than with some PUA. I get the feeling she’s going to get P&D’d by that artist guy.

    It’s odd though to see this quote in the Guardian article:

    Two weeks into the new HBO series Girls, one character has emerged as the most divisive: Marnie, the gorgeous, uptight roommate of the show’s heroine, Hannah … Marnie is not TV’s first beautiful control freak: She fits squarely into a character type formed by Mad Men’s Betty and Sex and the City’s Charlotte, two stunning women with deep neuroses. Marnie, Betty, and Charlotte highlight a strange trend in highbrow television: With beauty comes a desire for control – which the character ultimately must lose in humiliating fashion.

    I see a lot of control freak girls on television (and sometimes in real life too), but I never saw Marnie as one of those. If anything, I see her as attempting to give her friends the advice and guidance that they should have gotten from their parents (but didn’t).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @INTJ

      I get the feeling she’s going to get P&D’d by that artist guy.

      For sure! Then she’ll want Charlie back and he’ll say no way. (I hope.)

      I do think Marnie’s a control freak. How about acting as an event planner for Jessa’s abortion?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Bellita, that’s clear to an older, wiser audience, but to an impressionable teenager, the “dark” stuff seems so cool! When a young girl from a broken family ONLY sees dysfunction on TV, that normalizes it for her. Monkey see, monkey do. I was that young impressionable teenage girl writing diary entries. I thought that sort of thing “spoke to me” and “validated my experiences.”

    Girls is basically telling young people, “this is cool, and if your life is like this, it’s like you’re on TV, too!” It doesn’t matter if older people say “this is dysfunctional.” Young dysfunctional people flock to dysfunction like flies to poop.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Girls is basically telling young people, “this is cool, and if your life is like this, it’s like you’re on TV, too!”

      I don’t think so. I’ve watched it with a group of young women, and they were laughing but also groaning. They all liked it because while it is well-written and funny, it doesn’t glamorize the dysfunction. The show is saying, the SMP is majorly effed up. I also watched it with my son and his gf, and they were interested to discuss it afterwards. It’s definitely got people talking.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    More ranting on this subject. In early high school I was watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer

    Hey now, lay off the Scooby Gang. I remember going to Buffy season premiere parties.

    Although I will give you disfunctional…also, don’t have sex in the Whedonverse. You will wind up dead or royally screwed over.

    To this day the one thing I’ll never forgive Joss is killing Tara. All season I’d been waiting for them to get back together and when she came in and gave that long speech about rebuilding and all they needed to work through and ended with ” It’s a long and important process, and can we just skip it? C-Can you just be kissing me now? ” my heart melted.

    Then the bastard killed her.

    Since I’m being maudlin anyway, I was thinking yesterday about what emotional commitment from guys looks like and if anyone had distilled it in a movie. I think the best bet is when Rob proposes to Laura late in High Fidelity. It’s not anything romcon and it doesn’t get the girl (see the whole movie…actually, for Hollywood it’s not a bad view into how men think about women IMHO):

    Rob: I’m tired of the fantasy, because it doesn’t really exist. And there are never really any surprises, and it never really…
    Laura: Delivers?
    Rob: Delivers. And I’m tired of it. And I’m tired of everything else for that matter. But I don’t ever seem to get tired of you

    That last sentence is why challenging will never win a man and why the idea of having to game your wife every day repulses so many of us.

    When a man looks at you and realizes you’re the one thing in his life he never gets tired of, you’ve got him if you’re smart enough to keep him.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “44% of guys in bars said they would lie about wanting a relationship to get sex”

    How many women lie to get *out* of sex? Give out fake numbers? “I have a boyfriend?” If at least 44% of women in bars, then perhaps they’re a good match for the 44% of men in bars.

    Either lying and deception are part of the game, or not.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      How many women lie to get *out* of sex? Give out fake numbers? “I have a boyfriend?” If at least 44% of women in bars, then perhaps they’re a good match for the 44% of men in bars.

      Either lying and deception are part of the game, or not.

      Wow, that’s some interesting moral equivalency. You’re saying that lying to enter a woman’s vagina is on the same level as a woman softpedaling a rejection by saying she has a BF? Would you prefer she use the nuclear version, “I don’t find you at all attractive. No thank you.” Come on.

      Seriously, who pays a higher price in your analogy?

  • Herb

    Alright, I’m off to get the car’s oil change and then I’ll be back for one last check before I head off to SJW (Submissive Journey Weekend) and classes on ironing, sewing, and such (The gf is requiring me to go the Self-Image/Self-Esteem session).

    I’ll make one last check after I get back with the car and then it’ll be until Monday.

  • OffTheCuff

    Ted; “Keep in mind, for me that is only about 10 to 20 people max my entire life.”

    The reason I ask is that Ana and J and Sue seem to know everyone, and have numerous personal of examples for every behavior possible. Way over 20, if I take the sum total of their posts.

    This must be what life as an extrovert is like – it’s a bit alien to me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The reason I ask is that Ana and J and Sue seem to know everyone, and have numerous personal of examples for every behavior possible. Way over 20, if I take the sum total of their posts.

      This must be what life as an extrovert is like – it’s a bit alien to me.

      Don’t forget I have 24 women in focus groups, get emails, have friends with kids, etc. I’ve probably reported on about 50-100 women here over time.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Emily, just because two people are happy in a relationship and treat each other well doesn’t mean there can’t be a good story. There are lots of good stories that feature non-dysfunctional couples, although they’re not “chick crack” stuff.

    The Dune series for example has the Jessica and the Duke as a great, loving couple, Captain/First Officer style. Her relationship with her son is quite interesting, and her son, who eventually becomes the story’s early protagonist, has a wonderful love story. The main conflict revolves around other things.

    Though I can’t think of too many other examples besides Dune. I love the series because it presents a “light” way first and foremost, and I had a great spiritual awakening from reading the books.

  • INTJ

    Taking a big picture perspective of “Girls”, I have to say that it is further evidence of how the media is so focused on the problems that women face. If they care about the effect of society on men, it’s only because of how it affects women. We’d never see a show about how the modern sexual marketplace, educational situation, and job market affects young men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      We’d never see a show about how the modern sexual marketplace, educational situation, and job market affects young men.

      But I think Girls is doing that! We’re going to see Charlie kicked to the curb for getting too beta. We’re seeing the old horndog artist get Marnie tingling with a line he probably picked up from Roissy (seriously, it wouldn’t surprise me) and we’re seeing the arrogant jerk having crappy, uncaring sex with a girl who’s happy to tell her GYN she has a sexual partner. We’ve even got the college student who is deeply ashamed of her virginity.

      It’s the SMP in microcosm for both women and men.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Hope
    I should probably drop it now because neither of us have seen Girls and you don’t really want to, but I think it’s unfair to criticize a show that targets that “older, wiser audience” for potentially leading young people astray. It’s not trying to draw the age group that flocked to Buffy, Felicity or Gilmore Girls and it’s not giving anyone the same message that these shows do. From what I gather, Girls is probably the best cautionary tale out there for what happens when you do go astray. And I don’t see how the show could do this without being as clear-eyed about the dysfunction as possible. So while protesting dysfunction in a drama is legitimate, protesting it in a satire seems to miss the point.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    INTJ, that is partially because young men have stopped watching most TV shows, turned to video games en masse, and only watch well-developed shows with good plots like Game of Thrones (and even then guys like my husband still prefer the Internet).

    It’s about the advertising dollars. Shows that are “chick crack” bring in good revenue while being relatively inexpensive to make. Men will still watch sports, but syndicated shows aren’t doing all that well among the prime purchasing power male demographics.

  • OffTheCuff

    J: “As to kids–male or female– having sex in high school, I am absolutely against it. I’m sure there are some male commenters who will castigatee me for not wanting my son’s to be players in high school, but boys lack the emotional and financial wherewithal to deal with the long-range consequences of fatherhood or with the pain of having a child aborted or adopted away.”

    No, I won’t take the strawman bait. ;)

    While true on paper, for a boy, waiting until you leave high school to losing virginity is a bit like starting a marathon 3 hours after everyone else does. You’ll never catch up. There’s a huge difference between losing the V at a reasonable enough time to not be a loser, and being a player.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      While true on paper, for a boy, waiting until you leave high school to losing virginity is a bit like starting a marathon 3 hours after everyone else does.

      You have a very selective memory ;)

      43% of male college students are virgins. 34% when you include oral. 24% of seniors. That’s from three different data sources.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Hope
    I just reread my comment @361 and realize it may sound dismissive of your opinion. That was not my intent.

    I share your disgust at dysfunction in mainstream programming. There are dozens of TV shows I stopped watching because they got so much of their mileage from celebrating it. But I’m looking forward to Girls and betting that it’s not one of them.

  • INTJ

    @ Hope

    Someone would have to be blind not to see how unhappy the characters in Girls are. I definitely don’t think girls are going to start acting like the characters after watching the show. In fact, quite the opposite, I think it serves as an excellent warning to everybody.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @OffTheCuff
    While true on paper, for a boy, waiting until you leave high school to losing virginity is a bit like starting a marathon 3 hours after everyone else does. You’ll never catch up.

    Why do you need to catch up as long as you eventually finish?

  • INTJ

    My post (365) was a response to post #354

  • Emily

    >> “While true on paper, for a boy, waiting until you leave high school to losing virginity is a bit like starting a marathon 3 hours after everyone else does. You’ll never catch up. There’s a huge difference between losing the V at a reasonable enough time to not be a loser, and being a player.”

    I think the real solution would be to get rid of this idea that virgin = loser.

  • J

    The reason I ask is that Ana and J and Sue seem to know everyone, and have numerous personal of examples for every behavior possible. Way over 20, if I take the sum total of their posts.

    This must be what life as an extrovert is like – it’s a bit alien to me.

    LOL. Actually, I’m an MBTI introvert, but for some reason, people love to tell me their stories, probably because I’m a also a perceiver, not a judger. I’m also a woman and older than most people on the blog, so I’ve been in more environments where people share stories, for a longer time.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @MikeC
    “If a guy has minimal experience with women, and than just lucked out with getting a successful LTR with minimal dating experience prior to that then by definition his thoughts come from a very narrow perspective.”

    I won’t discount the benefit of coincidence for inexperienced guys WRT meeting their SO, but the same could be said for the mighty, experienced male. But a successful relationship isn’t maintained for years by accident. So replace “narrow” with pragmatic and “luck” with patience, perseverance, and hard work, and then you’re closer to the truth for every inexperienced guy I’ve known who’s successfully landed a relationship.

    If the goal is a lifelong commitment with one particular woman, I’d say experience with (X number of) other women is overrated at best and counterproductive at worst.

  • OffTheCuff

    Bel: “Why do you need to catch up as long as you eventually finish?”

    Define finish. The marathon doesn’t end, and everyone else keeps on running no matter what you personally do. Marriage is not an end point, it is just the beginning.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Bellita and INTJ, the thing about acclimation and validation is that they’re very subtle. As I mentioned, the girls on the shows I had watched were also miserable, maybe even more so. There were lots of tears, angst, obsession, and dysfunction. Those portrayals still normalize the unhappiness. It sends out the message, “Well, this is what’s going on out there. There ain’t nothin better.”

    I’ve kept quiet until now, but after reading the plot summary and various developments, I have not seen any alternatives. It’s either “hook up with this scumbag” or “have a boyfriend who’s a girl.” It’s either “tingles by the game-wielding jerk who doesn’t give a crap about her” or “totally turned off by the devoted nice guy.” What kind of message is that sending? Choose the lesser of two evils?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s either “tingles by the game-wielding jerk who doesn’t give a crap about her” or “totally turned off by the devoted nice guy.” What kind of message is that sending? Choose the lesser of two evils?

      This is the message. “Be careful what you wish for. You ushered in the Sexual Revolution, and now romance is dead, sex pretty much sucks for everyone, and we can’t tell who’s male and who’s female any more. Mind games are the only thing that get people stimulated, and they feel disgusted afterwards. Is there no better way?”

  • J

    @OTC

    While true on paper, for a boy, waiting until you leave high school to losing virginity is a bit like starting a marathon 3 hours after everyone else does. You’ll never catch up. There’s a huge difference between losing the V at a reasonable enough time to not be a loser, and being a player.

    But if he drops out of high school to support a baby, or cracks up because a girl aborts or gives up a baby he wanted her keep, he’ll be fine? No lost time or effort there? I guess I could get my sons a box of condoms, but frankly I can’t trust them to change socks on a daily basis, hold on to a new Ipod without breaking it, or turn in their ACT fees to the school office on time. I’m sure they’ll do fine with handling sex responsibly. No worries.

    I get your point on paper, and I don’t want my sons to feel rejected or like losers. But I’m not pushing them to find girls to screw either. So far things have been light and in a religious youth groups setting. That’s good for now.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    What kind of message is that sending? Choose the lesser of two evils?

    Date Cthulthu, why settle for the lesser of two evils.

  • Tom

    @ Oxy
    Tom: You got a study or something to back up “divorce is always men’s fault”? That’s an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
    _____________
    I have never said nor do I believe it is always the mans fault. Lack of communication is usually the biggest problem in most marriages. Someone gets hurt, or pissed, or disrespected, and they dont know how to talk about it, so they just stay mad and resentment sets in.
    Most couples even have problems talking about sex, what they want, need, fantacies they`d like to try etc. If I were a betting man, I would say the treatment of women by men is a big factor in a lot of marriages that go south. But by no means is it always the mans fault. She with holds sex, he gets pissed, he doesnt talk about it, he treats her like shit, she gets pissed, and with holds more sex, etc, etc, etc…..lol…Pretty soon they are both looking for someones shoulder to cry on instead of talking about it.

  • Tom

    That eharmony article was fascinating – I was surprised how clearly meeting in a bar stood out as a poor strategy. High loss of attraction, highest divorce rate.
    ++++++++++++++
    Imagine a dating service slamming a free dating custom.. No hidden interest there..lol

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Susan, no I didn’t watch Everwood, although I did watch Full House (I watched the reruns). I didn’t understand enough English to know everything that was going on when I watched it, but I could tell that it was portraying an overall loving family. The twins were also cute as babies.

    Anyway, I’m not seeing a “better way” in Girls. Maybe that will come later, but I’m not holding my breath either. These girls are not portrayed as self-aware or self-reflective. I’m not fond of schadenfreude as a form of entertainment.

    I would change my mind if Girls did portray a happy couple though. I remember being so surprised and grateful to meet my husband, because he was a red pill guy who was the perfect Goldilocks combination, and he was not afraid to get married and have kids in his 20s! I think there are lots of good men who get overlooked, and the mainstream isn’t spotlighting them.

  • Emily

    >> “You think so? I find him sort of physically repulsive. I love how he’s a player anyway, though.”

    Yeah, I wouldn’t describe him as “hot”. J’s description of him as a “butterface” was pretty spot-on. That being said, Lena Dunham isn’t very pretty herself. I still think that he has a slightly higher SMV value than she does, which IMO is one of the main reasons why she tolerates his douchey behaviour.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “Wow, that’s some interesting moral equivalency. You’re saying that lying to enter a woman’s vagina is on the same level as a woman softpedaling a rejection by saying she has a BF? Would you prefer she use the nuclear version, “I don’t find you at all attractive. No thank you.” Come on. Seriously, who pays a higher price in your analogy?”

    I’m not say it’s equivalent. I am saying that if deception is part of your relationship toolbox, then you are opening yourself more to it being used back on you. Nothing about morals, just practicality, remember? Just like, as if a man uses deception, then he can expect to get it back some day.

    Second, that is not a nuclear rejection, that’s honest and succinct. A nuke is cruel, way out of proportion to the proposition, and perhaps announcing it to the room (“get AWAY from me, you creepy pervert!”).

    Men vastly prefer your so-called nuclear neg over a lie like “Not tonight, I’m shampooing my hair” because in the latter case, they might waste time actually trying again if I didn’t understand the subtext. That opportunity cost IS a big problem. String together a few of these and a few years might go by!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Men vastly prefer your so-called nuclear neg over a lie like “Not tonight, I’m shampooing my hair” because in the latter case, they might waste time actually trying again if I didn’t understand the subtext. That opportunity cost IS a big problem. String together a few of these and a few years might go by!

      I understand that. I agree that women should not leave room for doubt if there is none. Saying she’s busy repeatedly is just needlessly cruel if she never intends to go out. On the other hand, “I have a BF” is pretty much a closed door. Any guy who hears that knows it’s not happening. And of course, she may actually have a boyfriend.

  • Abbot

    “Would you prefer she use the nuclear version, “I don’t find you at all attractive. No thank you.”
    .
    Or the relationship-killer nuclear version, “I have enthusiastically expressed embraced explored ___ c ocks. What do you say now, bucko!”

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “43% of male college students are virgins. 34% when you include oral. 24% of seniors. That’s from three different data sources.”

    It’s a shame so many are so far behind.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sue: “43% of male college students are virgins. 34% when you include oral. 24% of seniors. That’s from three different data sources.”

      It’s a shame so many are so far behind.

      I agree, and those numbers are increasing, for both sexes.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I can go you one better. When I was in the ER rolling around in pain last month, one of the nurses interrupted the backrub my husband was giving me to ask if I felt “safe at home.”
    So that was why I had along with asking my medical story they asked me if anyone had forced me to have sex in the last month. I let my husband read it winked at him and say “I wish!” ;) I know I’ m a terrible person.

    Last year in the same ER, a doctor asked my kid if I gave him his concussion (atheletic accident). My son replied that I never hit him, I just burn him with cigarettes. I laughed and said that I don’t smoke, but the doctor made my son roll up his sleeves to check for burns. He reprimanded my kid for messing with him and said, “This isn’t funny.” I replied, “No, it’s ridiculous. I know that you’re a mandatory reporter, but sometimes this stuff goes too far.”

    You are F*** kidding me? I’m going to have to watch out for the kids too?! Now making fun of my husband doesn’t seen so fun

    If a 40 yo woman has sex with a 14 yo boy and gets pregnant, even though she committed statutory rape, she can sue for child support from her victim. We even have case law upholding this in at least one state.

    I read false rape society regularly so I knew about that. Fucked up in all possible ways…

    Just a reminder that this is a RED flag for anyone who might miss that one. lol
    Not if the guy could kill you with a touch if he sets a glass wall is romantic (Pushing Daisies reference)

    Seriously, everyone should watch this show!

    Sorry my doctor told me that is not good for pregnant women to see things that might want to stab yourself with a fork. :D

    The trajectory is always the same: at first there’s “The One” love interest, then soon it turns into another guy, and another guy, and another guy… always situations involving tears.

    Buffy fan here and briefly Felicity fan I didn’t watched Gilmore Girls but Dawson’s Creek (same time slot in my country) and ITA they make a huge deal about the virginity and then when they lose it is like “My hymen was the only thing keeping me from being a slut! Bring out the boys!” completely disgusted I usually lose interest right aftehr they lose the V card.

    To this day the one thing I’ll never forgive Joss is killing Tara.
    Or Fred or Wes or Walsh or….

    The reason I ask is that Ana and J and Sue seem to know everyone, and have numerous personal of examples for every behavior possible. Way over 20, if I take the sum total of their posts.
    This must be what life as an extrovert is like – it’s a bit alien to me.

    People love to talk about themselves if you show that you are not going to judge them (I do judge them but I have a perfect “I understand” look so they can’t tell is really good skill to have for first dates) and I also have the family gift of people just pouring their heart’s out in my presence it happens even when I don’t even know the person I have people tell me in a bus stop the story of their lives, sex details and all and I’m like “WTF! I just wanted to go home”. Oh well I need to have material to write I guess. :/

  • Abbot

    Wind em up and they just keep on :
    .
    Is America in the midst of a sexual counter-revolution?
    Yes – attitudes have definitely shifted
    ( 33% )
    No – we’re the same as we’ve ever been.
    ( 67% )
    .
    “Amanda Marcotte: I genuinely feel that much of the horror we’re seeing now from the right isn’t a sign that America on the whole is sliding backwards, but more that our self-appointed moral guardians know they’re losing the war on sex. And they’re basically taking a major last stand. This is their Alamo.”
    .
    Horror?? What is this “war on sex?” Is the average guy on the street in this fight?
    .
    “Nancy L. Cohen: Yes, America is in the midst of a sexual counter-revolution, but it’s not what it seems. My book Delirium tells the story of how a small group of reactionaries, who want to control sex, hijacked American politics. This is what I’ve called the sexual counterrevolution: a four-decade old political campaign to turn back the changes brought on by the sexual revolution, feminism, and the gay civil rights movement.”
    .
    “The people who are behind this political movement make up maybe 15-20% of the nation. Their views are extreme and far out of the mainstream. I agree with Amanda–if they don’t meet resistance, they can impose their views on the rest of America.”
    .
    “The Pill provided the conditions for women to advance in the economy. Before 1970 women accounted for fewer than 10% in medical school and 4% in law school. There was an immediate jump when the Pill became available to unmarried college-aged women. Why? Training for a professional career is a big investment, and pill allowed women to delay marriage and childrearing to make it worthwhile. And because all women could delay marriage, they didn’t take themselves out of the marriage market by doing so.”
    .
    Well, she did call it a marriage market. Uh oh, she forgot to add that this pill allowed woman to fuck around. How it delayed marriage is not explained. How does this pill delay marriage?
    .
    ” A lot of the polling I looked at for my book does show men agree with women on the social issues, but don’t care that much about them and vote on their economic and government views.”
    .
    “And yes, education, and seeing this insanity, seems to be making men pay attention too.”
    .
    Wishful thinking sweetie
    .
    “Amanda Marcotte: I think your point about caring is a major issue, Nancy. Only 15-20% of Americans are highly misogynist, sex-phobic religious fundamentalists, but they really really care about this issue. To counterbalance that, we need other Americans to understand that their basic rights are genuinely threatened. A minority can take over if they meet dispassionate opposition.”
    .
    Good effen luck
    .
    “Americans see absolutely nothing wrong with a single adult woman being sexual.”
    .
    True. But about half of the people will be wary if they over do it.
    .

    .
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/mar/14/sex-women?newsfeed=true
    .

  • J

    So that was why I had along with asking my medical story they asked me if anyone had forced me to have sex in the last month. I let my husband read it winked at him and say “I wish!” I know I’ m a terrible person.

    You should have written that on the form.

    You are F*** kidding me? I’m going to have to watch out for the kids too?! Now making fun of my husband doesn’t seen so fun

    They are actually more aggressive in looking for child abuse.

  • INTJ

    @ SW

    For sure! Then she’ll want Charlie back and he’ll say no way. (I hope.)

    Yup.

    I do think Marnie’s a control freak. How about acting as an event planner for Jessa’s abortion?

    Oh. I thought they were all just there to support Jessa during her abortion (in which case it’s perfectly reasonable to be annoyed that Jessa didn’t show up on time – actually didn’t show up at all). But I was staying up late when I watched it, so my comprehension might not have been functioning properly. :D

    But I think Girls is doing that! We’re going to see Charlie kicked to the curb for getting too beta. We’re seeing the old horndog artist get Marnie tingling with a line he probably picked up from Roissy (seriously, it wouldn’t surprise me) and we’re seeing the arrogant jerk having crappy, uncaring sex with a girl who’s happy to tell her GYN she has a sexual partner. We’ve even got the college student who is deeply ashamed of her virginity.

    It’s the SMP in microcosm for both women and men.

    It still feels like Charlie’s concerns are secondary. The central focus of the series is on the four girls, including Marnie.

    I feel that serious discourse about the SMP on tv or in news articles is always from a female perspective, and that men are “objectified” as they’re viewed from the perspective of satisfying women’s needs. I’m not critical of Girls itself, but I’m critical of the media that always focuses more on one side of the SMP.

    Just seeing how Amanda Marcotte interprets the show demonstrates how female-centric discussions on the SMP are, and how this show plays into that pattern.

  • INTJ

    @ OTC

    While it would be nice if women were unambiguous about their rejections, this is in no way comparable to men lying about wanting a relationship to get sex. Trying not to hurt the other person’s feelings with a harsh rejection is nothing like lying so that you can have sex.

    On the other hand, an appropriate analogue would be women lying about their sexual past to get a relationship.

  • SayWhaat

    Enter Boothe Jonathan, a pretentious NYC artist of advanced years and small stature. He’s got Game – after Marnie tingles visibly in his presence he says to her, “The first time I fuck you I might scare you a little, because I’m a man, and I know how to do things.”

    I admit that I re-watched this scene about 5 times..

    In any case, it get’s Marnie so hot she rushes to the ladies room to masturbate.
    How badly did you want to slap her?

    I actually sympathized with her. Her relationship has been devoid of dominance and passion for so long that when someone else demonstrates it, it smacks her in the face and she takes her own pleasure into her own hands (literally).

    In Girls, where is the young couple that is happily in love with each other, showing the young folks watching how it’s really supposed to be done and providing a contrast to these other awful people?

    In the first episode, there was another couple present at the dinner. They were all over each other; I think they’re representing the contemporary “college married” couples. (Also they were very annoying.)

    I haven’t seen enough of Shoshanna’s character to make a judgement about her (her heart seems to be in the right place, but with her intelligence, I’m curious to see what sort of choices she makes).

    This was actually my one quibble with the show. Shoshanna seems needlessly naive, in an unattractive way. Her portrayal is only going to reinforce negative stereotypes about “older” virgins. : /

  • SayWhaat

    @ J

    and one in which a tyrant attempts to steal a loyal wife from her husband (Rosalinda)

    Might that have been Rodelinda? That was the opera my BF and I saw on our second date. :)

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    You should have written that on the form.

    Funny. I don’t have the guts though.

  • J

    Might that have been Rodelinda?

    Aaaarrrgghhhh! Yes. Damn this middle age.

  • Linden Holder

    “Sue: “43% of male college students are virgins. 34% when you include oral. 24% of seniors. That’s from three different data sources.”

    It’s a shame so many are so far behind.

    I agree, and those numbers are increasing, for both sexes.”

    And this is a bad thing, why?

  • Dogsquat

    Another blessedly slow day at work, so here comes a bunch of my crap:

    J said:

    “Last year in the same ER, a doctor asked my kid if I gave him his concussion (atheletic accident). My son replied that I never hit him, I just burn him with cigarettes. I laughed and said that I don’t smoke, but the doctor made my son roll up his sleeves to check for burns. He reprimanded my kid for messing with him and said, “This isn’t funny.” I replied, “No, it’s ridiculous. I know that you’re a mandatory reporter, but sometimes this stuff goes too far.”
    ____________________________________

    Is it really so hard to put yourself in that doc’s shoes?

    You know you’re a good person, but I don’t. That shit ain’t a joke to us, because we see it every day.

    Roll your eyes and scoff, but I’ve put an intraosseus line in a kid who’s arms were so scarred by his/her “punishment” for “mouthing off” that I couldn’t find a vein. My partner was instrumental in shutting down a nursing home we called “The Abuse Farm”. The staff there was stealing the food from the residents, or not feeding them at all.

    There are worse things I’ve seen. I promise you you don’t want to know. Humans are nasty animals sometimes, and this shit happens.

    Sometimes when we ask these questions, we recognize people who need help. Once in awhile, those people even get it.

    By answering a few questions without wasting time or adding aggravation, you can help us help the helpless.

  • Dogsquat

    Ana said:

    “I was completely surprised when during my first visit to the doctor for the pregnancy where my beloved was with me I was asked if I wanted him on the same room or not. ”
    ______________________________

    This is due to health privacy laws.

    You and the medical folks taking care of you are the only people on the planet who have any access to your health info, unless you expressly allow other people to access it. You can give verbal permission while you’re present, but if your hubby called on the phone and asked questions, they should be telling him,”Sir, I cannot confirm or deny ever seeing a patient by that name,” unless you’ve signed the appropriate forms.

    There are good and bad parts to it.

    You should see the crap that goes on during divorces. I once had a patient offer me a huge sum of money for a copy of their spouse’s chart, for example.

    Another one that causes stress is when parents ask about the reproductive health (birth control, STIs, etc) of their kids. Laws vary from state to state, but reproductive issues are often separate from other health issues. The kids usually get legal privacy for that much earlier than 18, when it happens for everything else.

  • Dogsquat

    Ted said:

    “Perhaps it is because of where I live and/or socioeconomic status, but most of the young girls I know in HS or just out are already at or around the 4 partner number.”
    ________________________________

    Chipped ham + pierogies + Iron City = BootyTime

  • Dogsquat

    Mike C:

    “Dogsquat, you are going to confuse people with these nuanced positions, ……………….

    ………….If a guy has minimal experience with women, and than just lucked out with getting a successful LTR with minimal dating experience prior to that then by definition his thoughts come from a very narrow perspective.”
    ________________________________

    I hope you’re wrong, but I worry that you’re right.

    If I had more time I’d start a blog – somewhere between Roissy and Cosmo, aimed at guys who are currently single but want a girlfriend. I like DannyFrom504’s tone – no bullshit taken, no free passes, but very few broad, incendiary statements.

    Problem is, I fear for my career if my anonymity is breached – and I just don’t have the time.

    That’s one reason (among many others) I read and post here so much. I hope you keep pitching in, too – I think you can help a lot of guys who are where I was 6 years ago. Rollo and Roissy are useful and necessary – but so is digoxin. The therapeutic range is narrow. Too much and you kill the patient, too little and they die anyway.

    I hope I’m in the middle somewhere, and I think you are too.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat

      Rollo and Roissy are useful and necessary – but so is digoxin. The therapeutic range is narrow. Too much and you kill the patient, too little and they die anyway.

      Just a spoonful of sociopathy makes Dogsquat a healthy boy?

      Just to be clear, I respect your right to hold any views you wish, but absolutely will not allow the sharing of Rollo and Roissy style advice here. As they both have blogs, it should be completely unnecessary anyway.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “It’s very relevant to what we’ve been discussing, but I’m not sure I want to deal with the firestorm that will erupt if I write about it.”

    Flame on! I expect many regulars to dismiss it forthwith just based on the description you gave : )

  • Maggie

    I’m liking “Girls” too. I can’t think of another women who has physically and emotionally bared herself like Lena Dunham.

    Maybe it’s my age, but I found Boothe Jonathan repulsive. I can’t understand why Marnie, who is probably a “10” in the SMP, would be turned on by him.

  • Dogsquat

    J said:

    “And that’s one big reason why they don’t do it. Unless you live in an isolated group were arranged marrriages are the norm and there’s no three date rule, women who hold out are afraid of losing out. It takes more confidence than most women have.”
    _________________________________________

    J, I am going to refrain from being tactful for the next few responses to you, because I am having difficulty communicating with you. I do not believe you’re picking up much of my intended meaning, based on your responses here and elsewhere. Perhaps in my desire to avoid ruffling feathers, my language has become obfuscatory. I will work to correct that.

    OK? Okay.

    You are wrong about what I’m saying. Here it is, with no BS:

    Sex often makes the obligations imposed on men by their would-be girlfriends an acceptable trade off. When sex is taken out of the equation, the young guy is often left with a person he likes looking at, but doesn’t like being around as much as his buddies.

    Many young women have little to offer men other than sex. Finding a young woman who is a good teammate and enjoyable companion to a young man is a rare thing.

    Young men have hundreds of resources and approaches to mold themselves into desirable people, increasing their chances of finding that teammate. Young women have Susan, a few bloggers she links to, and some folks who comment here. That’s it.

    There are reasons for that disparity, and one of them is an apparently reflexive “blame” shifting when women are held to account. I am not interested in participating in that. I want people to be happy and achieve their goals. Holding one’s ears and yelling,”I might be bad, but not really. Besides, you’re way worse!” is not productive.

    Some disclaimers:

    No, that doesn’t describe every woman everywhere. Yes, I know some guys are dicks. I am not attacking women. I am identifying an area of weakness in some women, that they may rectify it and achieve their goals….because….wait for it….I really, really like women. Hearing a happy, content woman talk and laugh is one of the best noises in the world. I want to hear it more often.

  • Dogsquat

    J said:

    “Yeah, that’s cute and funny and all, but with the average age of menarch at 12 and dropping and with the average age of marriage at 25 or 26, do you really expect that women are going to keep it zipped for 14 years?”
    ____________________________________

    No, I don’t. I never said I did, either.

    I am, however, extremely sick of hearing about women being powerless against PUAs and cads.

    Here it is, jam packed with 8 essential vitamins and minerals:

    -Sex is not a need. You will not die without it. I have been in hundreds and hundreds of emergency medical situations. I have saved several peoples’ lives, and made many, many “worst days ever” a little better. I have never once started an IV to give a life saving infusion of sex. Perhaps I’m doing it wrong, or one of my textbooks was missing a chapter.

    -It is easy to avoid consensual sex, once a certain level of proficiency with garments covering the crotch is achieved.

    -The people ultimately responsible for what is voluntarily put in vaginas are the very people those vaginas are a part of.

    I cannot be any more clear than that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat

      Sex is not a need. You will not die without it.

      Men here have argued otherwise. In fact, a couple have gone so far as to say that sexual variety is a physical need, and a couple even said they become suicidal if they don’t get it. (Lucky for you, but not for us, you missed the Male Sexuality post and comment thread.)

  • Dogsquat

    Susan said:

    “Anyway, he says in there that waiting is an aphrodisiac to males.”
    _________________________________________

    The first girl I ever fell in love with was a virgin.

    We were long distance, as I was in the military. Her and I fell in love very fast and hard, in part due to chemistry and in part to circumstance.

    We waited an eternity to have sex (better part of a year). To this day it was one of the best moments of my life. Truly an amazing, wondrous time.

    I loved that girl with every cell in my body, and I’d have felt the same if she told me we needed to be together for ten years before sex.

  • varanus

    @Dogsquat –

    I’m afraid I for one still require some clarification. Are you saying that holding off on sex is not a viable strategy for women because it renders male investment intrinsically disproportionate to female investment? Or are you suggesting that women develop themselves extra-sexually?

  • SayWhaat

    Dogsquat, what if sex is not part of the equation, but a woman gets deceived into emotional turmoil from a cad?

    You’ll have to take my word for it, but I did my due diligence in screening ex-Fake BF. He checked out with our mutual friends (girls who were pleased we were together and said he was a very good guy), he acted like a boyfriend with me and in front of his friends…I’ve described him numerous times on these threads and even some of the more militant commenters agreed that his behavior was “beta”. As it turned out, he was a giant asshole (he lied about my giving him a blowjob at a party when I was really softly crying on his shoulder in private).

    Are you going to blame me for getting emotionally (and a little physically) invested in a guy who I was 100% sure was going to be my first boyfriend?

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    You and the medical folks taking care of you are the only people on the planet who have any access to your health info, unless you expressly allow other people to access it. You can give verbal permission while you’re present, but if your hubby called on the phone and asked questions, they should be telling him,”Sir, I cannot confirm or deny ever seeing a patient by that name,” unless you’ve signed the appropriate forms.

    This might sound ignorant but this is the one of the most stupid thing I ever seen on this country. When I got married I make several promises including loving my husband in sickness and health. I know marriage vows are not legal but what is the point of making a commitment that can only be used when the other feels like it? It should be you are married you have full access to each other’s medical records if you don’t want that level of involvement with another person DON’T GET MARRIED!!!!
    I’m starting to side with the people that want marriage to be harder to obtain so the people that actually understand it are the only ones that get it. One flesh that is it people is not that hard of a concept, if all you want is a sex buddy that shares the same house cohabitation is your way to go. I’m really happy that my husband as liberal as he is doesn’t seem to share this ideas since I’m always in the same room when he needs a medical appointment and I’m not working.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @LH
    “And this is a bad thing, why?”

    Most men and women are happier having some amount of regular sex vs. doing without. And most men and women are *happiest* having a single commited partner for the horizontal mambo. Hence the problem with involuntary celibacy. It can happen to women, too.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “On the other hand, “I have a BF” is pretty much a closed door. Any guy who hears that knows it’s not happening.”

    Have we forgotten Game 101? Even I have been “involved” with women who said that. It was either wishful thinking, or was true but obviously didn’t matter all that much.

    “I agree, and those numbers are increasing, for both sexes.”

    You lost me. The men that are virgins are the ones that are left behind, you want them to be more so? And the v rate is increasing? I didn’t know that. Or maybe I did and lost the numbers,

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      You lost me. The men that are virgins are the ones that are left behind, you want them to be more so?

      No, I am not pleased that the number of virgins is increasing. It tells me that people are lonely and unhappy. It also tells me that the culture of casual sex is not working for most people. Although men and women have different goals re sex, the fact that 40% of college students are virgins tells me that a huge number are not even involved in the negotiation we call mating. That’s a tragedy for young people 18-22, IMO. If there is a silver lining, it’s that the numbers tell us there is a real opportunity for an alternative to hookup culture – it won’t help this group of students, unfortunately, but perhaps it’s a place to start trying to change the culture.

  • Dogsquat

    varanus said:

    “Or are you suggesting that women develop themselves extra-sexually?”
    ___________________________

    That’s it right there. Rounds complete, target destroyed.

  • Dogsquat

    SayWhaat said:

    “Are you going to blame me for getting emotionally (and a little physically) invested in a guy who I was 100% sure was going to be my first boyfriend?”
    _____________________________

    Nope.

    Shit most definitely happens.

    You end up with three guys like that, though, and I’ll point out the common theme…

  • SayWhaat

    Nope.

    Shit most definitely happens.

    You end up with three guys like that, though, and I’ll point out the common theme…

    Some girls only need to get burned once (maybe twice?) before they start distrusting all men. Shit happens, yeah, but you cannot argue that those girls are not powerless against cads. I didn’t give in to losing my virginity with him, but he wrought a huge emotional toll regardless. He had the winning hand — I had no power in that “relationship”, and neither do the many other girls who find themselves in similar situations.

  • Dogsquat

    Ana said:

    “When I got married I make several promises including loving my husband in sickness and health. I know marriage vows are not legal but what is the point of making a commitment that can only be used when the other feels like it? ”
    _______________________________

    Well, the great thing is you can choose to have your hubby there for everything.

    In my area, there are many folks who adhere to Sharia. Sometimes, the only way they can get accurate information and good care is when they’re separated from their spouse. The man might lie about cheating in front of his wife, and obscure an STI diagnosis. Also, those dudes tend to speak for their wives. I don’t know how Allah figured a husband should be able to describe ovarian torsion or an aortic aneurism, but maybe they can in Arabic.

    Also, you may one day change your mind. Maybe you wouldn’t want your husband to see (and smell – it’s pretty bad) you get a pilonidal cyst get incised and drained. Perhaps you wouldn’t want him listening to the sounds your rock hard turds make as they plonk into the plastic tub during a manual disimpaction.

    You have that right.

  • varanus

    @Dogsquat

    Got it. I can dig it.

  • Mike C

    I hope I’m in the middle somewhere, ***and I think you are too.***

    I’d like to think so but some might disagree depending on the day. :)

    I’ve been thinking lately about some of the disagreements I’ve had from time to time with various people, and here is sort of the big picture thing I’ve realized. All “analysis” of the SMP is essentially inductive reasoning. It is impossible to utilize deductive reasoning at all. I’ve had one life experience. Someone else has had another. I’ve had one circle of friends and acquaintances. Someone else has had another. My thought is you and I are often on a very similar page because we are similar ages with very similar life experiences vis a vis women and relationships with me obviously missing the military experience. But I suspect if you and I got together over beers and shared bouncing war stories we be nodding our head in agreement at the same shit we saw. A guy who married his first girlfriend and lived happily everafter can’t possibly relate to our experiences so his worldview is going to be radically different.

    I think “analysis” of the SMP is further complicated by the fact that personally I think much of the sociological research is probably close to utter bullshit served up by people with ideological agendas masquerading as serious academics. My bailiwick is economics and finance so I’m familiar with just how horrendous much economic research and analysis is. There is a reason economics is called the dismal science, and expressions like “economists make astrologers look respectable” exist. My intuition is that probably much of the “academic” research into sociosexuality probably isn’t much better than economic analysis. I’ll take a guy’s journal who did 1000 approaches with notes on what worked and didn’t over some guy in an ivory tower.

    I’ve got a sister. I don’t want her to get played, or used, or pumped and dumped. I am empathetic to the female POV and concerns, but I truly believe when push comes to shove, it is the “beta chump” who truly has the most to lose in the current SMP so I think sometimes my first instinct is to look out for his interests.

    That’s one reason (among many others) I read and post here so much. I hope you keep pitching in, too – I think you can help a lot of guys who are where I was 6 years ago.

    I appreciate you saying that. That means a lot coming from you. At one time, I was stuck at the bottom of a very deep hole. It was a dark, depressing place, and a couple guys threw me some rope, and helped to pull me out. One was a complete random stranger who IMed me after something I posted on T-nation. That started a multi-month exchange where I made incredible progress in a very short period of time, and I owed it to this guy. I’ve never forgot that. I try to pay that back. I’ve got one guy who I know I’ve helped, and I almost feel like a proud father hearing some of his recent successes. I think right now I’m sort of contemplating what are the best venues for me to deliver MY message and how to do that while occupying that middle ground you are referring to.

    Rollo and Roissy are useful and necessary -but so is digoxin. The therapeutic range is narrow. Too much and you kill the patient, too little and they die anyway.

    Excellent analogy. I had to Google therapeutic range to know what you meant. In my opinion, it is a guy thing to deliver a message in an over the top manner, and realize on implementation that you really need to moderate it. In other words, you don’t kick every girl to the curb who won’t screw you on the third date. But the key is to verify that she really is feeling authentic sexual desire for you, and not playing you for a chump. To this day, I’ m still waiting for some of the women to give concrete advice on how a guy is supposed to determine if a girl is really into him or sort of stringing him along, and whether he is being charged a large price difference. If one is going to criticize particular tactics or rules, then you have to be prepared to offer a guy a viable alternative.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Thanks for your thoughts on inductive reasoning, I think that’s exactly right. I’ll be the first to admit that I’m a middle-aged white UMC woman with nearly 28 years of marriage under my belt. To claim that I don’t see the SMP through that lens would be disingenuous.

      I think much of the sociological research is probably close to utter bullshit served up by people with ideological agendas masquerading as serious academics.

      All social science research is “soft.” That doesn’t mean it has no value or insights. Do you not think that economists contribute to our understanding?
      I disagree about the ideological agendas. Much of the research comes out of evolutionary psychology. There are a couple of researchers – Mark Regnerus comes to mind – who are religious Christians, but I haven’t seen that bias in the work. Also, the study that shows that women lose their ability to bond after sex with various men – the study most often quoted in the manosphere by far? That’s out of BYU. So the bias cuts both ways. Since Mystery got his theories from the same research you’re referring to, I’d have to say that No Evo Psych = No Game. Finally, a lot of the research is done by serious academics – these are professors from UT-Austin, UVA, Michigan, UCLA, Stanford. We’re talking about the best research universities in the country.

      I’ll take a guy’s journal who did 1000 approaches with notes on what worked and didn’t over some guy in an ivory tower.

      That’s your choice of course – just keep in mind that only the ivory tower guy has a random sample. The PUA is studying women in a particular venue. So while men get defensive when people claim Game only works on bar sluts, the fact is that Game has been tested in the field mostly in night spots. And Mystery developed in targeting “hired guns.” There just a huge bias in the sample, and that’s a fact.

      In my opinion, it is a guy thing to deliver a message in an over the top manner, and realize on implementation that you really need to moderate it.

      Do you believe that all of the men who read this “over the top” advice understand that it’s not meant to be taken at face value? Do you believe those male bloggers would sign a statement saying, “I am not meant to be taken at face value. Please moderate my advice.”?

      As for HUS, I can honestly say that I have never given a piece of advice that required moderation or dilution. I attempt to give women very precise instructions and guidance. I want them to do exactly as I say. As you can imagine, a man coming along and saying “if she doesn’t put out early, she isn’t into it” is completely incompatible with my approach.

      To this day, I’ m still waiting for some of the women to give concrete advice on how a guy is supposed to determine if a girl is really into him or sort of stringing him along, and whether he is being charged a large price difference. If one is going to criticize particular tactics or rules, then you have to be prepared to offer a guy a viable alternative.

      I think you could take any of my posts on how not to fall for a player and they would work with the gender changed. Maybe I’ll do that as a post just for fun.

      In any case, I’m putting up a letter from a male reader today, so stick around. I think he’ll want to hear advice from the guys.

  • SayWhaat

    To this day, I’ m still waiting for some of the women to give concrete advice on how a guy is supposed to determine if a girl is really into him or sort of stringing him along, and whether he is being charged a large price difference. If one is going to criticize particular tactics or rules, then you have to be prepared to offer a guy a viable alternative.

    I think I tried to answer this question when you first posed it, but I don’t think I did a good job.

    I can only speak from personal experience.

    If I wasn’t into a guy after a first date, I would insist on going dutch at the end of it. I didn’t want to feel like I was taking advantage of him if I knew that I wasn’t going to see him again. If I was on the fence and then landed on “no” after the date, I would text him over the next day or two letting him know that I wasn’t feeling it, best of luck for the future.

    As for the other guys who made it past the first date…my sexual desire for them was Obvious. As they escalated, I would happily oblige — from hot makeout sessions right up to the point where sex was on the table. This would happen around the 1-month mark. That would be when I told them that I was looking for a relationship/I was a virgin. I’m fairly confident that had I not been a virgin, I could have had a boyfriend 5 or 6 times over, after all that.

    Now, I’m sure that there are girls out there who have no problem getting sexy (minus actual sex) and then being flaky about actually getting into a relationship. Those girls are trickier because most likely, they’ve been sold the Rules version of landing a boyfriend (i.e. playing “hard-to-get”). In this instance, you just have to go by what she says and does. Are her actions congruent with her words? Is she always 10 or 20 minutes late to your dates, or does she value your time? Does she seem to actually enjoy spending time with you or does she invite you to places with friends where she can “prove a point” to some other guy/girl in attendance? Etc.

  • Dogsquat

    SayWhaat said:

    “Shit happens, yeah, but you cannot argue that those girls are not powerless against cads.”
    __________________

    Could you please explain this to me? There is a double negative there, and I can’t not misunderstand.

  • SayWhaat

    Could you please explain this to me? There is a double negative there, and I can’t not misunderstand.

    alsfjasdf. I don’t know if I’ve always been this poor at expressing myself or if it’s just the fact that it’s getting late, haha.

    BASICALLY. What I said in my personal example. I was powerless against a Cad — I didn’t have sex with him, but he had an emotional hold on me that was very, very hard to break free from.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but you are saying that girls who were in a situation like I was are not powerless against cads. If my personal story is any indication, that is not true. Are you going to blame the girl whose boyfriend cheated on her for falling for a cad in the first place? No, because the information that he was a cheater was revealed after the fact. She is powerless in that relationship, because she did not know her boyfriend was a Cad until after he revealed himself to be one.

    Same goes for girls who aren’t in relationships with cads, but are being actively pursued by them. Even if those girls don’t have sex with those cads, they could still get emotionally entangled with them. And that is an immense form of power in and of itself.

    Hence: you cannot argue that girls are not powerless against cads. I know that’s the same double-negative statement, but if you read it carefully then hopefully you should understand what I mean by now.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Well, the great thing is you can choose to have your hubby there for everything.
    And I can choose to deny to know anything about his unborn child or kill him/her if I feel like a bitch one day. That so civilized.

    In my area, there are many folks who adhere to Sharia. Sometimes, the only way they can get accurate information and good care is when they’re separated from their spouse. The man might lie about cheating in front of his wife, and obscure an STI diagnosis.

    Had it ever occurred to the person that did this law that if one spouse doesn’t know the other is sick they might get infected as well? How do doctors control for that under this “secrecy is a human right even from your own spouse” situation?

    Also, you may one day change your mind. Maybe you wouldn’t want your husband to see (and smell – it’s pretty bad) you get a pilonidal cyst get incised and drained. Perhaps you wouldn’t want him listening to the sounds your rock hard turds make as they plonk into the plastic tub during a manual disimpaction.

    I hope if I ever get that stupid I can ask him not to be there and he would understand without the need of me imposing myself on him you know the father of my children the man I pledged my life and health to I know meaningless this days but once upon a time people talked and discussed this things.
    I know you want the best in the worst situation and I’m not trying to be snippy but sorry this is just another “I have a right to my privacy” BS that people pull because they only want the “pretty part” of commitment and you know how I feel about “I want my life to be perfect even if I have to screw everyone else’s to do so” and I really can’t think of a situation in which this can be good for any married couple.

  • varanus

    @Susan Walsh –
    Welcome, and thanks for your comment.

    Susan, thank you for the warm welcome. I’ve been lurking (obsessively and intensively) for about a week and thought I’d heed your call for more participation from your target demographic of young women. Thanks for providing this forum for discussion!

    You’re so right too that we’ve raised women to see men as only “wanting one thing.” And we’ve failed to tell them about the male aversion to female sexual experience with other men.

    Not only are many of my peers unaware of this aversion, they actively advertise their engagements with multiple male partners – apparently under the impression that this provides social proof as it might for men who have options with multiple female partners. They think this makes them seem more desirable. While it does attract some male attention, they don’t realize this attention results from having been characterized as easy. Ultimately they are disappointed, but rarely are they reflective or introspective…?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @varanus

      Not only are many of my peers unaware of this aversion, they actively advertise their engagements with multiple male partners – apparently under the impression that this provides social proof as it might for men who have options with multiple female partners.

      Yes, this is the way that women have been lied to. We’ve been assured that the feminist agenda is good and right and that’s the way the world works. Of course, we took all this from our mothers and from the culture, not from men. We have a tendency to project our own natures onto men, with disastrous results. Social proof is one area – men just don’t care about that. Being hard to get is another thing – men don’t like it. Jealousy – oh boy. Men hate hate hate feeling jealous and they’ll stop seeing someone they’re really into if she makes them feel it. And of course, all of these accomplished women who believe men should find them attractive because they’re successful in their careers and well-traveled.

      A whole generation of women came of age under these misconceptions. I’m trying to set the record straight by pointing out all of the very real biological differences, especially around emotions and sexuality.

  • Dogsquat

    Mike said:

    “But the key is to verify that she really is feeling authentic sexual desire for you, and not playing you for a chump. To this day, I’ m still waiting for some of the women to give concrete advice on how a guy is supposed to determine if a girl is really into him or sort of stringing him along, and whether he is being charged a large price difference. If one is going to criticize particular tactics or rules, then you have to be prepared to offer a guy a viable alternative.”
    ____________________________

    I’ve been paying attention lately to the concept of privilege derived from ascribed status. Yeah, I’m a fucking nerd, I know.

    Some stuff is flat-assed easier for me because I’m a white male over six feet tall. Some stuff is harder, too, but on balance I think I came out ahead.

    Intellectually, I realize that having a police force representative of the population it polices is very important. However, I was pissed for a long time that I was told I’d never get a slot in the Pittsburgh PD because they needed more women and minorities.

    My brain said,”Yeah, I get it. No problem. What the city needs is more important than what I want.”
    My gut said,”Man, fuck that shit! I’d be a good cop.”

    Then I got called back to the military, got out, and settled into another career. Totally over it, but I’ve never forgotten the first time being a tall white guy worked against me.

    I’m wondering if asking a woman to disclose that information is threatening her privilege, and she experiences the same visceral distaste for disclosure as I did for affirmative action in the police hiring process.

    You’re asking her to hand over a huge advantage to a guy. She’s basically putting herself at their mercy if she offers a viable strategy. It’s also very hard to admit to yourself (and others) that you’ve got an “unfair” advantage based on your genes. Lots of people can’t bring themselves to do it. They’ll go through all kinds of bizarre mental gymnastics to avoid admitting it. I’ve experienced that myself, and it’s really, really hard to describe.

    I suspect it’s to preserve self-esteem in most cases, but with women and mating strategy, the motive might go even deeper.

    Or, perhaps, the women simply don’t know.

    In other news, I was thinking about just putting up a blog and copy/pasting some of my more “important” posts I make here to that one. Maybe some kid will stumble on to me here and click on the link. If I have the time and energy I could write something once in awhile solely for the blog. You want to get in on something like that?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I vote that Mike and Dogsquat start a blog! Right now, there is nothing like what you guys could bring. I take that back – Danny is wise but also loves women. But the sphere needs more male bloggers who actually have successful relationships and like women.

      DO IT!

  • INTJ

    @ Dogsquat

    SayWhaat said:

    “Shit happens, yeah, but you cannot argue that those girls are not powerless against cads.”
    __________________

    Could you please explain this to me? There is a double negative there, and I can’t not misunderstand.

    Triple negative. Means exactly what it says though. :D

    @ SayWhaat

    I could not fail to disagree with you less. While girls can certainly get cheated by cads, if they choose wisely (as you’re doing), the probability of this happening a few times in a row is low. And as for getting actively pursued by cads, I don’t think girls have any right to complain unless they’re willing to approach guys and ask them out. Requiring that guys pursue you and then complaining that the wrong kinds of guys keep pursuing you is unfair.

    It’s the same standard I apply to betas who keep getting friend-zoned or dumped for the alpha. Sure, it can happen once or twice. But if it keeps happening over and over, they shouldn’t be pursuing such girls.

  • varanus

    @Mike @Dogsquat
    “But the key is to verify that she really is feeling authentic sexual desire for you, and not playing you for a chump. To this day, I’ m still waiting for some of the women to give concrete advice on how a guy is supposed to determine if a girl is really into him or sort of stringing him along, and whether he is being charged a large price difference. If one is going to criticize particular tactics or rules, then you have to be prepared to offer a guy a viable alternative.

    I’d like to take a stab at it, but to which stage in relationship formation are you referring? The first few dates?

    You’re asking her to hand over a huge advantage to a guy. She’s basically putting herself at their mercy if she offers a viable strategy. It’s also very hard to admit to yourself (and others) that you’ve got an “unfair” advantage based on your genes. Lots of people can’t bring themselves to do it. They’ll go through all kinds of bizarre mental gymnastics to avoid admitting it. I’ve experienced that myself, and it’s really, really hard to describe.

    I imagine there’s some truth to this. But I don’t think most women experience it in these terms. It’s not so much a calculated withholding of information as a sense of uneasiness resulting from insufficient information and familiarity with the partner. I’ve never dated a man with the intention of taking advantage of him; initially, I am legitimately unsure if there is real sexual attraction, or, if there is, whether the man is trustworthy enough to receive that attraction. I would be unable to offer a strategy for determining if my interest is real because during the first few dates I am myself determining if my interest is real.

    Is that what you were asking?

  • SayWhaat

    And as for getting actively pursued by cads, I don’t think girls have any right to complain unless they’re willing to approach guys and ask them out. Requiring that guys pursue you and then complaining that the wrong kinds of guys keep pursuing you is unfair.

    For the record, I don’t require that guys pursue me, and I have done my fair share of initiating and expressing interest. I don’t think you’ll find a single woman here who will disagree.

    What I am trying to say to you (and Dogsquat) is that the probability of getting conned by a cad has increased more than you guys would suspect. In this SMP, “betas” have the incentive (and are in fact motivated) to act like cads. It is very difficult for women to suss out who is truly a cad and who truly has good intentions, even if they are choosing wisely.

  • SayWhaat

    I imagine there’s some truth to this. But I don’t think most women experience it in these terms. It’s not so much a calculated withholding of information as a sense of uneasiness resulting from insufficient information and familiarity with the partner. I’ve never dated a man with the intention of taking advantage of him; initially, I am legitimately unsure if there is real sexual attraction, or, if there is, whether the man is trustworthy enough to receive that attraction. I would be unable to offer a strategy for determining if my interest is real because during the first few dates I am myself determining if my interest is real.

    +1 to varanus. There’s less (if any) calculation and more instinct that goes into this sort of thing.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SayWhaat
    “It is very difficult for women to suss out who is truly a cad and who truly has good intentions, even if they are choosing wisely.”

    Spot on. I’ve got stories from some female friends that blew my mind. As the cad population has increased, you have to wonder why they’ve changed their tactics to seem like relationship-minded guys? I mean, if most women give it up at the drop of a hat (they don’t), then they wouldn’t need to be played or deceived. Whatever the answer is, I’m sure women as a whole have encouraged this bad behavior : )

  • Dogsquat

    SayWhaat said:

    “I don’t know if I’ve always been this poor at expressing myself or if it’s just the fact that it’s getting late, haha.
    _______________________________

    Lolzer. No worries!

    “Correct me if I’m wrong, but you are saying that girls who were in a situation like I was are not powerless against cads. If my personal story is any indication, that is not true.”
    ___________________________________

    I disagree. I think you did just fine in your situation. Imagine if you’d slept with him and gotten a dose of neurochemically enhanced pair-bonding.

    I submit to you that the damage would have been deeper, the scar tissue thicker. You avoided that by operating your trousers according to the service agreement provided by the manufacturer. You waited him out, he showed his true face, and you dealt with him accordingly.

    I’m not saying it’s painless and fun – but you took some good steps to minimize the damage. You exercised your agency. There is always some risk in exposing yourself emotionally to another person, and your dice came up snake-eyes this time. Good on you for not betting the farm on this toss.

    Strong work.

    Back to the original argument:

    “Hence: you cannot argue that girls are not powerless against cads.”
    __________________________________________________

    Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that this is true.

    That means that women are not in control of their actions when presented with certain stimuli by men. Play that out to an extreme and personalize it a bit:

    Say it’s ten years from now – you’re married and have 2 kids. You’re solo on a plane flight back home, and just so happen to be sitting next to Roosh.

    Are you saying that he could Game you into fucking him? Or just really, really wanting to fuck him, but not doing it, hanging on by a shred of decency – needing to picture your kids crying because their daddy left mommy – tingling so bad the Captain comes back and puts your seatbelt on himself?

    Really?

    About repetition in mate selection:

    I’ve said this before on HUS, but my nickname used to be Sergeant Save-A-Ho.

    Through some combination of genes, upbringing, and bad chakra fluid – I was really attracted to messed up women. I could talk to two equally attractive women about every day stuff for 20 minutes, and I’d come away really liking one of them. I’d get the male equivalent of gina tingles for her.

    That woman would invariably be messed up somehow. She’d have a bad coke habit, an eating disorder, untreated sexual abuse – something like that. We wouldn’t talk about it, but something in me could feel it.

    Since I liked her and I’m handsome (my mommy told me) we’d start hanging out, we’d get close, her problems would arise, I’d try and help out, and before I knew it, we’d be An Item. I’d get “sucked in” to these toxic (for me, anyway) relationships with women who needed more help than some dumb-ass boyfriend could provide.

    After going through this a few times, almost getting stabbed, spending tons of money, time, anguish, and heartache…I realized that I was the common denominator. Something in me was attracted to these fucked up chicks. I also realized that not all women are fucked up – just the ones I liked.

    So I stopped dating for awhile. Did some therapy and a lot of introspection. I learned a little about psychology and how it applied in my life. Basically, I did a lot of work on myself.

    Then I started dating again. It was hard at first. For a long time, I had to force myself to date women I didn’t “tingle” for. See, I still felt those sparks with certain pathologies, but I’d learned that meant Badness. I had to re-train my mind to find healthy women attractive.

    It was hard. I had to do it, though. The alternatives were celibacy or shrugging and saying,”I like what I like, and I can’t do anything about it.” Celibacy would be a neutral path, but the latter would have landed me in a trailer park with a recurring role (shirtless and drunk, of course) on Cops.

    That is what I want some women to recognize. If your wiring is fucked up (like mine was), you’re going to like unhealthy people. Sure, take some time to figure it out, but once there’s a pattern – you own that shit. It’s your fault if you fuck another player for the sixth time. It was my fault I dated the bulimic coke head with the stabby ex-boyfriend – I knew myself, and I KNEW those sparks I felt signified Something Awful – even if I didn’t know about her problems the first time I kissed her.

    If shit just isn’t going right in your love life, stop blaming everyone else. You can’t control other people. At most you can nudge them a little bit, but people basically do what they were gonna do anyway. Your power over other people lies in allowing them into your life, or kicking them out. Picking the wrong person over and over and over again is not everyone else’s problem. You’re there the whole time, so how about getting your Booty Picking Gear tuned up and operating correctly?

    That’s what I’m saying about women having power over cads.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    For the record, I don’t require that guys pursue me, and I have done my fair share of initiating and expressing interest. I don’t think you’ll find a single woman here who will disagree.

    What I am trying to say to you (and Dogsquat) is that the probability of getting conned by a cad has increased more than you guys would suspect. In this SMP, “betas” have the incentive (and are in fact motivated) to act like cads. It is very difficult for women to suss out who is truly a cad and who truly has good intentions, even if they are choosing wisely.

    I see what you mean.

    Not sure what sort of advice I’d give you to try to filter out us good guys from all the cads. If you can some how find a “natural” way to find out about the guy’s past sexual history. Don’t act judgmental about it (even though you will definitely judge him on his answers). Most cads will assume that pretending to be sexually inexperienced is not going to help them.

  • Bud

    “Men cooperate too, a guy more or less understand that virgins exist, we are Catholics after all, and understand that she wont be banging him right away so after evaluating if he likes her enough to wait for sex they allow for things to progress slowly, they know that the price for sex is commitment so he commits and keep showing it while she shows more sexy side at similar rates is like a dance, slow escalation more kisses, tongue, hugs, hand jobs, blow jobs NOT ANAL (that is just stupid american bullshiting)…so there is a way to give just enough without going all the way till there is a date for the wedding in which cases most of my friends considered committed enough for sex, of course she cannot be giving blowjobs to random guys that also is slutty behaviour, boyfriend earns the most sexy side by sticking around and being nice rewarding assholes for beer is not part of “saving myself” policy.”

    Sounds good. For him. May I ask what the girls get out of it? Are the hand jobs and blow jobs reciprocated in the other direction?

    The teen with 40 year old. What Jezebel and other feminists are not getting is that an older man or woman might provide a more psychologically healthy experience for the teen precisely because of their maturity, than another anxious and horny teen could.

  • Dogsquat

    @varanus:

    Goddamn, you’re smarter than I am. I hope you stick around. You were issued ovaries at birth, right?

    I can buy being unsure about a guy at first. That’s kind of what I figured, anyway.

    The second part of Mike’s question is:

    Another issue guys have is feeling second (or worse) best in certain situations. Jesus Mahoney (Peace be upon Him) had a great post a few months ago about what it feels like when a woman makes him “prove himself” before they get sexual, but finding out later that she’s decided to bang a few guys within hours of meeting them. (Susan, I’m referring to the newspaper analogy if you’ve got that gem saved). That’s the reference to the “large price difference”.

    Basically, some women will bang some dudes immediately, but require others to offer commitment, gifts, even human endocrine organs before getting Biblical.

    Any thoughts on that?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat

      Here is Jesus’ Price Discrimination parable. Pure brilliance:

      Imagine going to the newstand at the corner to buy the Sunday Times. I love the Times: the Book Review, the Arts section, and all the articles on world affairs and business. Cool stuff. So you go down and slap a fiver on the counter and grab the Times. A man next to you tosses a quarter on the counter and also grabs the Times. You stare at the quarter for a moment and then look up at the vendor with a questioning look on your face.

      “Is everything all right, Mr. Mahoney?”

      “Did that man just pay a quarter for the same paper I gave you $5 for?”

      “Well, yes he did in fact, Mr. Mahoney.”

      “So I can pay you a quarter for the paper?”

      “Well, no, Mr. Mahoney. Of course not. You see, that man only uses the paper to line his bird cage. He doesn’t appreciate the book reviews, the Week in Review with all the fascinating articles about the world, he doesn’t ponder the Business section, the editorials, and such. You do, though. This paper is worth $5 to you, whereas it is only worth a quarter to this other man.” He smiles, believing he’s made perfect sense.

      This is what committing to a girl who’s given it up casually amounts to, paying $5 for a product that others get for a quarter.

  • varanus

    @SayWhaat
    There’s less (if any) calculation and more instinct that goes into this sort of thing.

    An attempt to reflect on the cognitive processes informing that intuition/instinct:

    I am typically unable to say whether I’m attracted to someone merely by looking at them. There may be visually identifiable traits which contraindicate attraction (obesity, poor dental hygiene, etc). If those fundamental things check out, the person is still a tabula rasa. Attraction is not yet present, but there is potential. The initial stages of a relationship are about information-gathering and inference-making. It’s a liminal state in which I suss out qualifying or disqualifying aspects and attempt to extrapolate based on the information available to me. It’s about existing in a pre-attraction state that can feel very mysterious and unconscious while you’re in it. Sometimes, the unappealing qualities I discover impede the development of attraction to the potential partner. We do not have liftoff. Other times…the appealing qualities exceed some unquantifiable threshold and I “suddenly” develop a raging lady-boner for the person. The experience feels emotional/intuitive, though I expect it’s actually quite cerebral. I don’t think analysis of this subconscious calculus comes naturally to many women.

    Then again, I know other women who are more easily aroused by visual stimuli. I’d be curious to hear others’ input.

  • Dogsquat

    @INTJ:

    I dunno about sussing out the male’s sexual history thing. My answer to that question is “Squat, Dog NMI. No children. Never Married. Never contracted an STI, here are my test results.”

    I went to SERE school, so they’re never getting anything else out of me, ever, thanks to your tax dollars. I appreciate that, by the way.

    Plus, I think guys are so used to lying about this issue (especially to other guys) that they’re really, really good at it.

  • INTJ

    @ varanus

    I imagine there’s some truth to this. But I don’t think most women experience it in these terms. It’s not so much a calculated withholding of information as a sense of uneasiness resulting from insufficient information and familiarity with the partner. I’ve never dated a man with the intention of taking advantage of him; initially, I am legitimately unsure if there is real sexual attraction, or, if there is, whether the man is trustworthy enough to receive that attraction. I would be unable to offer a strategy for determining if my interest is real because during the first few dates I am myself determining if my interest is real.

    Is that what you were asking?

    The problem is how do we distinguish someone like you from someone who just wants to date us until she can get the hotter alpha that she wants?

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Sounds good. For him. May I ask what the girls get out of it? Are the hand jobs and blow jobs reciprocated in the other direction?

    I think you missed the part were women in general are more aroused by foreplay than by the rest, making out with a man you like feels reaaaaaaly good for most women even if there is not sex involved.

  • Dogsquat

    Ana said:

    “Had it ever occurred to the person that did this law that if one spouse doesn’t know the other is sick they might get infected as well? How do doctors control for that under this “secrecy is a human right even from your own spouse” situation?”
    ________________________________

    The docs run tests, and sometimes prescribe meds to both partners. It gets pretty hairy when the translator explains what the meds are for to the previously ignorant spouse. Yes, Tazers work through hijabi.

    I get what you mean about spouses behaving as one with regard to health. I hope I end up like that – won’t have a choice if I marry my current SO, anyway – she’s got a prescription pad with her name printed on it already.

    Keep in mind, though, that life is rather more fucked up for a lot of people.

    It’s like the abuse questions some of you were making light of earlier. That’s superfantastic you people don’t have to worry about that crap. You’re lucky to be able to get indignant about it.

    Lots of people aren’t.

  • varanus

    @Dogsquat 
    The second part of Mike’s question is:

    Another issue guys have is feeling second (or worse) best in certain situations. Jesus Mahoney (Peace be upon Him) had a great post a few months ago about what it feels like when a woman makes him “prove himself” before they get sexual, but finding out later that she’s decided to bang a few guys within hours of meeting them. (Susan, I’m referring to the newspaper analogy if you’ve got that gem saved). That’s the reference to the “large price difference”.

    Basically, some women will bang some dudes immediately, but require others to offer commitment, gifts, even human endocrine organs before getting Biblical.

    & @INTJ
    The problem is how do we distinguish someone like you from someone who just wants to date us until she can get the hotter alpha that she wants?

    I see where you’re coming from. Those are excellent questions which deserve a better response than I can formulate tonight. I’ll sleep on it.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    It’s like the abuse questions some of you were making light of earlier. That’s superfantastic you people don’t have to worry about that crap. You’re lucky to be able to get indignant about it.

    Dog every month I receive a news article about a woman getting killed by her current or ex husband partner or lover in my own country, sometimes her kids included. I find it indignant because I don’t see how can harassing people at doctor’s office improve the odds of anyone that is abused to actually escape it. Show me numbers of men and women (and I must notice my husband never get this kind of questions asked even though statistically speaking he is also at a great risk) that had been saved by whatever a doctor is supposed to do if her patient say yes and I might believe it, IME all it happens is that the woman lies or don’t come back to the place that makes her remember that she is in abusive relationship. People’s lives are fucked up but trying to make everyone suspect only increases the ways a real bad guy can get away with it, IMO.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Mike and @INTJ

    The problem with this question is that I’m sure SW and friends never actually tried to string a guy along for validation or free meals so for them explaining to other men that they are indeed sincere is tricky.
    I think the question for guys should be how much the woman is investing herself?
    If she never tries to reciprocate whether by asking you out next time herself, suggesting a place or offering to pay or cook then chances are she is gaining other things. A man can pay for a first date, no matter how cheap but as a rule if she doesn’t offer something in return “I pay next time” “Drinks on me” I will cook the dinner” are signs of her trying to show equality and good will, there is something fishy going on. When my now husband used to visit me we split half and half and that was my suggestion and once when he was short of money I saved up so he could travel to my country. If she acts like a selfish princess I consider that a red flag both as relationship prospect and intentions, even if she is dirt poor she can always offer some way to make the weight of dating not be only on man’s shoulders. Just my two cents.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @OTC
    Define finish. The marathon doesn’t end, and everyone else keeps on running no matter what you personally do. Marriage is not an end point, it is just the beginning.

    Since that was pretty much my definition of “finish,” I have to wonder what your definition of “running” is. The marathon metaphor doesn’t really make sense to me.

    The marathon of life I can understand. But the marathon of sex? What’s the finish line?

  • Gillian

    You guys are seriously weird. Far be it from me to deny you your life experiences, but I have no idea on which planet you live, because NONE of what you’ve written and discussed here reflects the lived experience of myself and my friends (mid 20s to mid 30s young urban professionals, mostly straight) – both male and female.

    We date people we want to have relationships, and sometimes it works out, and sometimes it doesn’t. We hook up with people we are attracted to – and sometimes it turns into dating/LTRs and sometimes it doesn’t. Men get their hearts broken, women get their hearts broken, and most people end up in LTRs that they find satisfying, regardless of how much sex they’ve had prior to that relationship.

    I (and my girlfriends) have NEVER had a man lie to us about wanting NSA sex. It’s said right up front, and those who want it go along with it, and those who don’t – don’t.

    This whole “it’s a war out there!!” sounds so fatiguing – and again, totally irrelevant to anything I’ve ever encountered in my life. But hey – it’s obviously working out for you guys, so more power to you, I guess!!

    As for the whole “women have no individual power” that one of the first commenters managed to ejaculate… oh, honey, tell that to my 6-figure salary and the team of engineers I manage. Or to Hillary Clinton. Or to Tarja Kaarina Halonen. It’s exactly the other way around – women as a group still suffer from sexism and are under-privileged… individual women sometimes manage to overcome that disadvantage and attain lots and lots of power.

    Also, also – men are just as interested in marriage and relationships as women. How do I know this? because most people are in a relationship, and 50% of them are men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Gillian

      Are you aware that many women do not want to have sex without emotional intimacy? And that that is difficult to find in our contemporary culture? The women who read here find that your approach is not working for them. If you’re happy with your life, that’s great, but unfortunately, many women are discouraged and worn down by the lifestyle you espouse.

      There is actually a very large body of data that shows that partner count directly impacts marriage rates, divorce rates and relationship satisfaction. One has only to look at the prominent sex-positive feminists to observe that most of them are not in monogamous relationships, few of them are married, and almost none of them have children. The sex-poz crowd is a cautionary tale for women who want marriage and family.

  • Emily

    >> “To this day, I’ m still waiting for some of the women to give concrete advice on how a guy is supposed to determine if a girl is really into him or sort of stringing him along, and whether he is being charged a large price difference.”

    There definitely *are* girls out there who will go on dates with guys they don’t really like for the free meal/attention (… of course NAWALT! NAWALT! NAWALT!) These Users also seem more prominent than they actually are because they date more. If a nice girl isn’t interested in a guy then she’ll politely decline, whereas a User will accept most date invitations, so they’re circulating a lot more and leaving many frustrated guys in their wakes.

    …as for how to spot them? I wish I could give more of a useful answer. I tend to be very suspicious of anybody (male or female) who actually enjoys dating. I never understood people who regularly date multiple people at once. When I’m single, my “default” setting is dating zero people. If I’m seeing ANYBODY, then it’s a bit of an exceptional circumstance. (Though maybe that’s more of an Introvert thing.) If a girl dates around a lot, then IMO it’s probably more likely that she’s trying to channel her inner Carrie Bradshaw.

    The really only useful advice that I have is to spend very little money at the beginning. If a girl sticks around through multiple cheap dates, then it’s more likely that she actually enjoys your company. Using somebody for a free three course meal is evil but understandable. Using somebody for free ice cream cones and cups of coffee is a bit silly.

    Most of you probably already know this stuff, but it’s worth repeating.

  • Emily

    …another thing as well:

    Even if a girl isn’t having sex with you right away, if she’s interested then she’ll usually find SOME way of being physically affectionate, even if it’s in a very innocent way. So if she’s really snuggly and cuddly with you, then it’s a very good sign. But if she barely lets you touch her, then I’d consider that a definite sign of indifference.

  • Gillian

    This is what committing to a girl who’s given it up casually amounts to, paying $5 for a product that others get for a quarter.

    What?? no, it means getting to be with a person you love. Or are you saying that the only reason you get into relationships is to get exclusive rights to genitalia access with a particular woman? because personally, I (and the men and women I know) get into relationships because they, y’know love (or at least really really like) the person they’re in a relationship with.

    Not to mention the fact that sex isn’t a limited resource. I mean, how does the fact that a woman had sex with other men before affect the quantity or quality of sex you’d be having with her?

    I honestly and truly do not understand the reasoning behind this.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Not to mention the fact that sex isn’t a limited resource. I mean, how does the fact that a woman had sex with other men before affect the quantity or quality of sex you’d be having with her?

      I honestly and truly do not understand the reasoning behind this.

      That’s because you spend too much time at ManBoobz :)

      News: Men are hard-wired to prefer women with less sexual experience. The only proof one needs is to look at the rather tortured “creative accounting” women do when asked about their number. Here’s a comment that a woman left at feministing after reading HUS:

      “There is this notion of slut shaming in the media and it happens on a more personal level among people who shame one another. There is also something that is discussed on other websites but never in the wider media – something called slut rejection. The latter is what heterosexual men who seek a life partner supposedly engage in. I have personal experience with this. My ex did not try to shame me but upon knowing more about me, he just sort of faded away. Its so wrong that women may have to lie or not say anything and either strategy is prone to backfire. I believe that if men had less alternatives, that is if most or many women had a fruitful sexual history, then that would become the norm and therefore acceptable.”

  • Gillian

    Are you aware that many women do not want to have sex without emotional intimacy?

    Yes. I’m one of them. What does that have to do with anything? first of all, “emotional intimacy” does not necessarily equal LTR and romance. Second, there are women who do. And there are men who don’t. What I’m saying is that there is nothing wrong with “hooking up” as long as expectations are clear all around. Do people sometimes make mistakes? sure, but that has nothing to do with “hooking up” as a phenomenon, just as the fact that divorce exists does not invalidate the nature of marriage as a relationship.

    And that that is difficult to find in our contemporary culture?

    Sorry, in my experience it isn’t. When you don’t play games and straight-up tell the people what you’re looking for (whether just sex or a relationship), you tend to find what you’re looking for. This is not to say that everything is straightforward – you may miss up on someone who’d be a great match for you because at the moment you’re looking for different things, or you could try for relationships with people who are looking for relationships and still not find someone compatible, or you could hook up thinking you only want a hookup and end up emotionally affected, or you could have a hookup fall in love with you and not be interested, or you could hook up and end up marrying, or… but, y’know, that’s life. The best policy I’ve found in my 35 years on the planet is to be honest and respect other people’s honesty. It usually works.

    There is actually a very large body of data that shows that partner count directly impacts marriage rates, divorce rates and relationship satisfaction.

    Actually there isn’t. But please direct me to relevant research if there is indeed solid data to support your claim. Also, you’re assuming that “not getting divorced” is a good thing in and of itself – I don’t. 150 years ago there were a lot less divorces – I don’t think it was because people were happier. It’s because they didn’t have the choices we have today. Also also – even if there is a body of evidence that supports your claim (and I think that if it does, it probably shows only a few percentages of difference here and there), it still does not mean anything for the individual experience. Most people are heterosexual, and would therefore be happy in a heterosexual relationship. Does that mean homosexuals should also be in heterosexual relationships?

    One has only to look at the prominent sex-positive feminists to observe that most of them are not in monogamous relationships, few of them are married, and almost none of them have children.

    Who are you referring to, exactly? and from that sample group you project unto the human race in it’s entirety? bad, BAD statistical analysis!!

    Not to mention that again, you are making unsupported assumptions, those being that whoever these “prominent sex-positive feminists” are, they WANT to be in a “monogamous relationship”, be married, or have children.

    The sex-poz crowd is a cautionary tale for women who want marriage and family

    ???? Most of my girlfriends are happily married. ALL of them (every single one, no exceptions) hooked up. Some in high-school, some in college, some of them were what you would call “slutty slut sluts.”

    What I’m saying is that for some reason you’re assuming those “sex pozes” are not in a monogamous etc. because they had sex, not because they don’t want to be (or just haven’t found the right person, or are just unlucky in love). You’re making a connection between “promiscuity” (whatever that means) and not being married/monogamous that is not in evidence.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Gillian

      It’s nothing personal, but I find debates like the one you propose to be a very poor use of my time. I’ve written 600 posts here, and I’ve answered all your questions hundreds of times in them and the comment threads. Sometimes, sex poz feminists drive by and ask me to masticate the choicest bits for them and offer them up in easily digestible form. I just don’t have the time or inclination to do that. If you’re curious, have a look at the archives.

  • Gillian

    News: Men are hard-wired to prefer women with less sexual experience.

    Well, “hard-wired” is a rather strong statement, isn’t it? cultural preference, sure – but seeing as there has been more than one culture in which sexual experience in women was preferred (Hawaii and ancient Crete, to name but two), not to mention several in which it was never considered an important fact, I think that calling it “hard wired” is pretty much wrong.

    The only proof one needs is to look at the rather tortured “creative accounting” women do when asked about their number

    Again – cultural, not biological, the proof being numerous cultures (including sub-cultures in the US right now) where women don’t do this. Such as the social groups I move around in (and no, they’re not especially polyamorous/kinky/promiscuous – I’m actually quite vanilla, personally). I have never lied about my number to partners, my girlfriends have never lied, and I’ve never felt the urge or need to lie – because it makes no difference.

    If we remove the social stigma, then no one will feel the need to lie. Are the people to whom it’s important? sure, look at yourself and all those who agree with you. But that’s because of the sexist values you’ve absorbed since childhood, not because of some “biological hardwiring” (whatever that means, seeing as one of the only things we know for sure about the human brain is that it’s plastic and adaptable – physically changing based on context and circumstance).

  • Gillian

    I’ve answered all your questions hundreds of times in them and the comment threads

    But I haven’t asked any questions, really, only asked for cites and names – but that’s OK. Even if research does prove what you say, and there are 25 sex-positive feminists who aren’t married and really really really want to be… it still does not invalidate any of the points or rebuttals I made.

    We have a philosophical disagreement, and that’s fine. The only difference is that I’m well aware of where the grounding for my beliefs comes from (culture), while you feel the need to claim that your beliefs are based on biology, without any real proof (even the proof you bring is all culturally contextualized – if the number ARE true…why assume the causes are biological and not cultural? especially when there are numerous other cultures throughout history and the present where facts are exactly opposite?)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Gillian

      But I haven’t asked any questions, really, only asked for cites and names – but that’s OK.

      I believe I’ve read every study ever performed on hookup culture and/or casual sex in the U.S. 95% of them conclude the practice harmful. I can only recall one or two saying casual sex is no biggie, trumpeted by Jezebel, only to learn that the fine print says something entirely different. For example, casual sex doesn’t prevent relationships if the parties both were seeking a relationship from the start.

      I like to think I’m open minded though. If you can recommend a single study that suggests casual sex is empowering and satisfying for women, I’d love the link.

      As for citations, and names, again – the archives are chock full of that information.

  • OffTheCuff

    Is it “culturally learned” that most women generally prefer to avoid shorter men? Let’s remove the stigma for shorter men, so it can be fair! If we remove the stigma, nobody would need to buy elevator shoes, or fudge their height on dating profiles, or the worst thing imaginable – feel bad or judged. I say we pass a law requiring a quote of women to date short men, that ought to do it.

  • Ted D

    Gillian – “What?? no, it means getting to be with a person you love. Or are you saying that the only reason you get into relationships is to get exclusive rights to genitalia access with a particular woman? because personally, I (and the men and women I know) get into relationships because they, y’know love (or at least really really like) the person they’re in a relationship with.”

    I’m going to break this down into a few sections, mostly to try and keep my thoughts straight.

    “no, it means getting to be with a person you love.” – sure at a higher cost than some other guy paid to “be with” the person I love. “BE WITH” to me includes a very high degree of sexual exclusivity. The only people I’ve shared myself with physically are people I’ve loved. It sets the bar pretty high for me in terms of what I consider acceptable sexual behavior from my partners, and I can’t help but feel concerned if her experiences differ widely from mine. It not only causes me pause to wonder how faithful she will be, but it also gives me a sense of unfair trade in regards to sexual value. I hold my sexuality to a high value, and trading it to someone that doesn’t means I get less for my investment, and also that she may very well value my sexual intimacy less than I do. And I have to point out that to me, the major difference between a friendship and a LTR is the sexual component. Don’t get me wrong, I want/need companionship and emotional support from my mate, but if necessary I can get that from my friends as well. What makes my SO special is not only do I get the companionship, but I also get the sexual intimacy. It is one of the things about me that I save ONLY for the person I love. I can’t tell you how pissed off I get when women say “Sure I slept with him, but I didn’t give him my heart and soul like I did you!”. BS. I give my heart and soul to every person I love and care about, which means friends and family as well. It may be harsh, but to me offering your “heart and soul” is asking for free credit, as it is expected if you intend to be in a relationship with me.

    ” Or are you saying that the only reason you get into relationships is to get exclusive rights to genitalia access with a particular woman?” – Only reason? Not even close. However the only time I share “rights to my genitalia” with someone is within the confines of a LTR, so if some woman wants exclusive “rights” to my genitalia, then she will have to be willing to have a relationship with me. Knowing that the woman I’m with wasn’t nearly so selective feels… Dirty. Icky. It makes me feel less respect for her, and then gets me wondering about the point above: meaning does she even value our sexual intimacy as much as I do. Because I *WANT* her to value it as much as I do. If she doesn’t, it is far more likely that she may look for it elsewhere. I mean, if it isn’t special then it can be found anywhere, right?

    “because personally, I (and the men and women I know) get into relationships because they, y’know love (or at least really really like) the person they’re in a relationship with.” – and I would hope that everyone does. Here is the thing though, to me, sexuality is VERY MUCH a part of the person I love, and to me granting access to that sexuality is strictly an expression of love. When it is given simply as a pleasurable experience, devoid of love and caring, it becomes a cheap thrill. To me, becoming sexual with a woman is the climax (pun intended) of the long climb to relationship acceptance. By that I mean, if and when I decide to have sex with a woman, it is because I have decided I am in love with her, and I want her to be my mate. I purposely put off being intimate with my current SO for several weeks because I wasn’t sure how she felt about us. By that I mean, I didn’t feel she was willing and ready to become exclusive and committed, so I was not ready to have sex with her. When I became concerned that she might see it incorrectly, I clearly told her that I was interested, attracted, and would very much love to be sexual with her, if she was interested in being exclusive. She was and we did. But I can’t deny the fact that it bothered me to NO END that she had previously had sex with other men without the slightest hint of commitment, and knowingly so. (meaning she did the FWB/ONS thing a few times.) I got over the feelings of jealousy and fear, but it was a painful process, and there are still lingering effects that I deal with from time to time.

    In short, the “emotional intimacy” that many people feel is the primary reason and reward for getting a LTR doesn’t fly with me. Yes, I certainly want and expect that emotional intimacy from my relationships, but it isn’t the only or primary reason I want one. If all I was after was an emotional connection, I would simply be friends with my SO. But, I want that connection AND physical intimacy. To get that, I will go the extra mile and get into an “official” LTR with her. In fact, if it wasn’t for my desire for that sexual intimacy, she would make a terrific friend.

    And in fact, I am actually pretty friendly with my ex-wife now. I didn’t know if I could manage it, but once I no longer desired her sexually (and got over being angry at her for leaving…), it was easy for me to see her positive traits and settle into a friendship of sorts. It is different than my other friendships, but I have no problem spending time around her, talking to her, or being near her. She is good people, and I married her in part because of those traits. I still see the value in them, and without the complication of a sexual relationship, I am able to enjoy them. You see, I was able to separate the sexual component from the “friendship” because it is the sexuality that to me MAKES it a relationship. Without the sex, she is still someone I like and love, but as a friend and not a lover.

  • Ted D

    ” But that’s because of the sexist values you’ve absorbed since childhood, not because of some “biological hardwiring” (whatever that means, seeing as one of the only things we know for sure about the human brain is that it’s plastic and adaptable – physically changing based on context and circumstance).”

    No. For me it is because I specifically put value on my sexuality and “saved” it for people I love, and as self-centered and selfish as it may be, I expect others to do the same. I have a very small circle of friends because I expect each and every one of them to meet MY minimum criteria for being “good” people. I take people as they are, but that means I don’t bother getting to know many because frankly, most people just don’t meet my minimum expectations. And, that minimum is higher for any woman I will consider for a mate.

    The flip side is: the friends I have are awesome people. We trust each other very deeply, and share a pretty damn strong emotional connection. In fact, in many cases they are stronger than the ties I have to my family. I didn’t get to choose who I’m related to, so although they are “family” it doesn’t mean I trust them in the least. Being my family does NOT mean you get any emotional investment from me, that has to be earned by everyone. So again, that level of emotional connection does not mean that someone is my “mate”, it means they are my friend. Having sex with them makes them my mate.

  • J

    @Dogsquat

    Is it really so hard to put yourself in that doc’s shoes?

    Not at all, Dog. As you may recall, I mentioned several times that I once worked in adolescent mental health. That made me, wait for it….a mandatory reporter. Notice that my remarks to the doc were prefaced by, “I know you’re a mandatory reporter, but….”

    Part of being in that position is knowing that there will be some blow back from your questions and taking it with humor if it is given with humor. Another part is being able to size up people. If a relaxed, well-fed, well-dressed teen enters the ER with a mother who seems concerned about the kid’s health, odds are that the kid is safe at home (or that everyone is so good at concealing things that they are not going to admit abuse to you anyway). If the kid jokes about being burnt and there is that obvious twinkled in the kid’s eyes that says “I’m pulling your leg,” there’s no need to go off on the kid. Most mandatory reporters will generally just explain that state law requires them to ask and move on to the business at hand. I find it hard to believe that there isn’t at least one smart ass remark to that question per shift in the average ER, much less one truly nasty response. Most hospital staff would have realized that my son was just being cute and let it pass.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Dogsquat, I think it might be a young/innocent trait in NF folks to be attracted to those with some kind of hurt or dysfunction. I was like this since I was 3, and I wanted to be a doctor or nurse. I had little girl crushes on guys who were in pain and wanted to take away their pain, and it only intensified in my teenage years. My husband was likewise attracted to girls with a sad past. It has definite potential to screw us up and put us in bad relationships.

    The solutions are to 1) heal thyself so you’re whole and healthy, or as much so as possible, 2) find a whole and healthy person who is also drawn to helping others, 3) avoid broken and dysfunctional people who do not want to put in the effort to help themselves, but do try to lend a hand to those who want to change. I’m probably not saying anything new to you, but I like pontificating on this subject anyway.

  • Maggie

    @Susan
    “One has only to look at the prominent sex-positive feminists to observe that most of them are not in monogamous relationships, few of them are married, and almost none of them have children. The sex-poz crowd is a cautionary tale for women who want marriage and family.”

    Interesting, some these sex-pos writers on other blogs have started to do a U-turn. In the past year, a number of them in their late 20’s to mid-thirties have written they really are tired of NSA and want a monogamous relationship with children. One writer who liked to write about the many men and kinky sex she’s had over the years now says her dream is get married and be a SAHM.

    Maybe they just grew up.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Maggie

      Interesting! Do you have any names?

      I thought Tracy Clark Flory might be coming around, then she wrote about getting to have a ONS with her favorite male porn star.

  • Mike C

    Thanks for your thoughts on inductive reasoning, I think that’s exactly right. I’ll be the first to admit that I’m a middle-aged white UMC woman with nearly 28 years of marriage under my belt. To claim that I don’t see the SMP through that lens would be disingenuous.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

    I think much of the sociological research is probably close to utter bullshit served up by people with ideological agendas masquerading as serious academics.

    All social science research is “soft.” That doesn’t mean it has no value or insights. Do you not think that economists contribute to our understanding?

    I agree, and I painted with a too broad brush in my previous comment. No doubt, academic social science research can point us in the direction of the “truth”. My main issue, and it really comes from my experience in finance and economics, is I have a strong visceral aversion to credentialism. In my view, often getting a masters or PhD in some social science field just means you jumped through the appropriate hoops. It doesn’t mean that person’s insights are necessarily better than a lay person with some smarts who has spent the time studying some matter intently. When dealing with social science one of my first questions is what the are the embedded assumptions/premises. For example, one of the core premises of neoclassical economics is that man is totally rational and maximizes utility. A number of psychological studies have demonstrated this assumption is complete nonsense.

    I disagree about the ideological agendas. Much of the research comes out of evolutionary psychology.

    I’m thinking of something like Sex at Dawn which admittedly I have not read, but read enough reviews to get the sense it is pseudoscience using the frame of evolutionary psychology/biology to advance a particular ideological agenda.

    Since Mystery got his theories from the same research you’re referring to, I’d have to say that No Evo Psych = No Game.

    I’ve actually never read Mystery Method (my intro to “Game” material was almost entirely David DeAngelo material). In any case, the point I would make here is irrespective of how and where Mystery got his theories, the reason they’ve survived is NOT because of an academic tome that references them, but because thousands and thousands of men have field-tested the theories and found by and large they “work” on some level. If those theories had been abysmal failures, guys wouldn’t have stuck with them just because they were referenced academically. Actually, I think if anyone has any inclination, I think it would be fascinating to trace out the development of Game starting with the late 90s and to what degree these theories were sort of independently developed by early Game theorists, and to what degree some of it was taken from academic evo psych research.

    Do you believe that all of the men who read this “over the top” advice understand that it’s not meant to be taken at face value? Do you believe those male bloggers would sign a statement saying, “I am not meant to be taken at face value. Please moderate my advice.”?

    Probably not. The world is filled with stupid people who take everything they read or see at literal value. I’ve thought a lot about this. I really think this is a male versus female communication style and I think I haven’t been successful in conveying that to you. I might play a buddy in Madden football and be like “I murdered you”. Did I literally kill him? Of course not, its just an expression. I might play a buddy in 1on 1 basketball and be like “I destroyed you”. I simply think men are prone to hyperbolic, over the top speech really intended to hammer the point home. I think this can offend female sensibilities as women deal more in nuance, subtlety, and indirect messages. So a guy might tell a buddy “You look like shit” whereas a women might politely suggest “you might consider changing that look” Take Dogsquat for example. One thing he is quite skilled at I think is recognizing this aspect of female communication and crafting his comments to meet that style. But I think it was this thread in a response to J that he was finally like “OK, you aren’t getting the indirect style, now I’m going to drop that and be direct”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Thanks for clarifying – I think you’re exactly right about male and female communication styles. It’s really, really hard to shed one’s natural style enough to even see the message in a different style. Mars and Venus, I guess.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    All social science research is “soft.”
    Physics is the only real science. The rest are just stamp collecting.
    Is it “culturally learned” that most women generally prefer to avoid shorter men? Let’s remove the stigma for shorter men, so it can be fair! If we remove the stigma, nobody would need to buy elevator shoes, or fudge their height on dating profiles, or the worst thing imaginable – feel bad or judged. I say we pass a law requiring a quote of women to date short men, that ought to do it.
    Heh good one. You should add unatractive and creepy looking men and see how open they are to “fairness” in fact sex pos should fight for a random date society if they are really about everyone having the same chances at getting laid, just date guy number 23 that you meet to make it really far not slut shaming because everyone can get a date but no price discrimination either for men that are not on the top 20. Everyone wins!

    Without the sex, she is still someone I like and love, but as a friend and not a lover.

    ITA. I’m one of the women here that despise men that engage in casual sex so I totally get no one has to be shamed to marry or date sluts or players if they freaking don’t want to.

    Also, you’re assuming that “not getting divorced” is a good thing in and of itself – I don’t. 150 years ago there were a lot less divorces – I don’t think it was because people were happier. It’s because they didn’t have the choices we have today.
    Every single study shows that kids do better growing up in marriage than after divorce every single one so there is proof that marriage is better than divorce. You are also assuming that people that divorced are better off than married people. The statistic say that they are not happier in the long run and men specially have a high risk of suicide. Divorce can be worst than a bad marriage for many people so marriage is actually a good way to measure people’s functionality.

    (even the proof you bring is all culturally contextualized – if the number ARE true…why assume the causes are biological and not cultural? especially when there are numerous other cultures throughout history and the present where facts are exactly opposite?)

    Cultures that didn’t progressed or created the very same luxuries you are enjoying now like democracy, internet and health care. The fact that it happened doesn’t mean that it was successful it means that there is variations on everything. Monogamy and marriage created our world, go to live in those cultures and get back at me with how “good life is in it”.

  • Abbot

    Ah, the re-caster is back!
    .
    So, lets see.
    .
    “This whole “it’s a war out there!!” sounds so fatiguing – and again, totally irrelevant to anything I’ve ever encountered in my life. ”
    .
    True. Sadly, the war analogy was born from the highly defensive feminist camp:
    .
    “our self-appointed moral guardians know they’re losing the war on sex.”
    –Amanda Marcotte
    .
    “This is what committing to a girl who’s given it up casually amounts to, paying $5 for a product that others get for a quarter.
    .
    What?? no, it means getting to be with a person you love.”
    .
    Well, its appears that someone has been saving a few favorite lines from waaay back. Ya know, it just so happens that a man can fall for such a woman but since love does not happen in a vacuum its much much easier to fall in love with a woman who has not recreationally fucked around.
    .
    “I honestly and truly do not understand the reasoning behind this.”
    .
    Reasoning? this is about feelings and emotions. Besides, you’re understanding is irrelevant. All that matter is how men feel and they will do whatever pleases them first and women second.
    .
    “What I’m saying is that there is nothing wrong with “hooking up” as long as expectations are clear all around.”
    .
    True. What is your point?
    .
    ““hooking up” as a phenomenon,”
    .
    Yes, it certainly is a phenomenon
    .
    “The best policy I’ve found in my 35 years on the planet is to be honest and respect other people’s honesty. It usually works.”
    .
    True. Too bad its not followed universally, especially when a promiscuous woman “remakes” herself if she has a crack a good husband prospect. Of course if he goes for it he has only himself to blame.
    .
    “Most of my girlfriends are happily married. ALL of them (every single one, no exceptions) hooked up. Some in high-school, some in college, some of them were what you would call “slutty slut sluts.”
    .
    Any type of woman, if she tries hard enough, can be married.
    .
    “You’re making a connection between “promiscuity” (whatever that means) and not being married/monogamous that is not in evidence.”
    .
    No. These sex pozoids are constantly attempting to advise women with their self serving rhetoric. Free speech is all good. But women who desire committed relationships from men who do consider sexual past in making a life mate choice [as in most men] are better off hearing from role models who are in long term relationships.
    .
    “I think that calling it “hard wired” is pretty much wrong.”
    .
    Unless the man is out to get laid; he is hard wired to seek a promiscuous woman.
    .
    “I have never lied about my number to partners, my girlfriends have never lied, and I’ve never felt the urge or need to lie – because it makes no difference.”
    .
    For some men, it is low on the list of criteria.
    .
    “If we remove the social stigma, then no one will feel the need to lie. ”
    .
    All the spitting angry feminists and the small gaggles of promiscuous women are seeking this elusive social stigma removal formula. What is it? How can the curse finally be lifted? Please be specific, step by step. What do you propose be done?
    .
    “why assume the causes are biological and not cultural”
    .
    Why assume anything? Obviously there is this goal out there to get men to change their attitude or manner thinking. That is the goal, no? Normally, when someone wants something from another person they ask for it. Is anyone asking? Or is it going to be business as usual aka spitting angry go-nowhere diatribes?
    .

  • J

    @Dogsquat

    Sex often makes the obligations imposed on men by their would-be girlfriends an acceptable trade off. When sex is taken out of the equation, the young guy is often left with a person he likes looking at, but doesn’t like being around as much as his buddies.

    LOL.. It’s a good thing that did soft-pedal that idea in your previous posts. Most women would hate to think that their company is less entrancing than a guy’s buddies’ company.

    Many young women have little to offer men other than sex. Finding a young woman who is a good teammate and enjoyable companion to a young man is a rare thing.

    Yikes! If that’s so, then there isn’t a lot to attract women to men other than having a provider. If I didn’t feel there was a friendship between my husband and I (as well as some damn good sex), I’d leave.

    Young men have hundreds of resources and approaches to mold themselves into desirable people, increasing their chances of finding that teammate. Young women have Susan, a few bloggers she links to, and some folks who comment here. That’s it.

    So other than this blog, what resources and approaches should be used to mold young women into desirable people. What would a desirable young woman’s persobality look like to you? I’m intrigued. I’ve heard enough jokes like, “Why do women have p*ssies? So that guys will talk to them.” to wonder what beyond sex and a hot meal you guys want.

    I ask this seriously. I have a number of platonic male friends, mostly married, who seem to really enjoy my company. They aren’t getting food (outside the occasional neighborhood potluck dinner) or sex from me, and unless their wives and my husband all drop dead simultaneously, they never will. The subject of what men want comes up from time to time, and the consensus is food, sex and a clean house. It’s disappointing. I’d really like to believe that there’s more than sex and maid service holding couples together. OTOH, if you believe Roissy’s view that actions are more important than words, than why should any of these guys even talk to me? Am I the one woman in the world with a personality? Do I laugh the laugh of the contented? If so, the guy that’s making me content is standing in their way.

  • J

    @Dogsquat

    Sex is not a need. You will not die without it.

    If you read all my comments in the context of the thread, it should have been clear that I wasn’t claiming that. I said origianlly to SW that I wondered if the 20s are critical years in learning to form relationships (which, sooner or later, sex usually becomes a part of), not that 20-somethings will die without sex. While I realize that sex is not as high in the hieraarchy of needs as food and water, there are biological drives and emotional needs that push people of reproductive age towards relationships. Those drives are what keep the species viable and are hard to deny. Does this mean that in consensual sex, women are not ultimately responsible for what happens to them? No. Does it mean that women can’t be taken advantage of sexually in their search for relationships? Unfortunately not, and elements of game, particularly Dark Game, play on that.

  • J

    It should be you are married you have full access to each other’s medical records if you don’t want that level of involvement with another person DON’T GET MARRIED!!!!

    I think the problem isn’t with stable married couples, but with people who are about to split. It’s not with you or I being in the examining room with our spouses, it’s with the soon to be ex getting into things that are no longer his or her business.

  • J

    Also, you may one day change your mind. Maybe you wouldn’t want your husband to see (and smell – it’s pretty bad) you get a pilonidal cyst get incised and drained. Perhaps you wouldn’t want him listening to the sounds your rock hard turds make as they plonk into the plastic tub during a manual disimpaction.

    Meh. My husband’s cleaned my puke and been around for some pretty disgusting medical stuff. And vice-versa. If a marriage can’t survive that, you’ve got bigger problems.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I think the problem isn’t with stable married couples, but with people who are about to split. It’s not with you or I being in the examining room with our spouses, it’s with the soon to be ex getting into things that are no longer his or her business.

    Oh I know that but the problem is that many people that is having a foot out of the relationship already (or that were never really into it to begin with) sell this as “right to privacy” and the way “a modern marriage behaves” it would be better if this was considered what it is: a symptom of lack of commitment and not trying to be normalized. Jezebel was full of “committed” women that were horrified at the idea of sharing intimate things and never saw it this way, hence I rather say it out loud just in case. Kids are watching. ;)

  • J

    @Mike C.

    To this day, I’ m still waiting for some of the women to give concrete advice on how a guy is supposed to determine if a girl is really into him or sort of stringing him along

    Here’s one criterion: Does she have your back?

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Meh. My husband’s cleaned my puke and been around for some pretty disgusting medical stuff. And vice-versa. If a marriage can’t survive that, you’ve got bigger problems.

    I think the problem I have more is the idea that if I decided to change my mind about my vows in the middle of the marriage the law will protect me and not my spouse. I can deal if a couple personally doesn’t want to be around for certain things (I told my hubby that I didn’t wanted him in the delivery room because after doing a lot of research I think the whole birthing process is designed in a way that after the trauma women get a nice doses of good natural chemists designed so she will forget the pain, bond with the baby and give it a go as much as possible if he is a witness he gets the trauma and not the drugs, not cool in my book and he agreed without me forcing my choice on him) and I don’t think is a matter of “will my relationship survive?” but “is necessary for him/her to be around me or do I feel better with some other arrangement?” is mostly because if they decided that they don’t want that anymore they can just get away with it with little room for the spouse feelings in the matter being considered even if is very likely they will bear the consequences, is just not fair IMO, YMMV.

  • J

    Say it’s ten years from now – you’re married and have 2 kids. You’re solo on a plane flight back home, and just so happen to be sitting next to Roosh.

    I know that this wasn’t directed at me, Dog, but since I’m married with two kids, I can easily imagine myself in this scenario. My first thought: “Is there an an airsick bag in the back of the seat in front of mine?”

    Despite a predilection for the dark and hirsute Mediterrean male, I find Roosh gross. Please substitute a young DeNiro or Pacino, then carry on.

  • Ted D

    J – “The subject of what men want comes up from time to time, and the consensus is food, sex and a clean house. It’s disappointing. I’d really like to believe that there’s more than sex and maid service holding couples together.”

    OK, what I am about to say is going to be very, very harsh, but I’m going to be honest from my perspective here.

    I most assuredly want/need my SO to be my friend, but that IS NOT what makes me want to be her spouse. I think she is a great person, and if she was male I suspect we would be very good friends. But, she is female and one I find sexually attractive, so instead of my friend she is my mate. By that description, it is the sex that makes us a ‘couple’ although I think it is a really simplistic view of the relationship. The maid service part doesn’t even come into play. If she was my roommate, I would expect her to clean up after herself and help around the house, so I hardly even consider that to be part of our relationship.

    What I’ve found with my ex-wife is that if I remove sex from the equation, indeed we can be good friends. In her case, there is no complication of attraction because being married and now divorced from her, there is NO sexual attraction left to get in the way.

    So in a way it is the sex that makes the difference. But, in my view that isn’t a bad thing since even getting to the point that sex is an option means that I’ve already decided she is:
    a decent person
    that I like to be around
    and can consider a friend
    that I am sexually attracted to and therefor willing to partner up with.

    Call me self-centered but to me just making it to my friends list is a monumental accomplishment.

  • J

    @Ana

    My DH was in the delivery room with me through a forceps birth and a c-section. I thought having him there would be more helpful to me than it turned out to be. (Things got very complicated medically before the forceps birth; if I had to say who was indispensible to me that day, I’d choose my OB.) OTOH, it was great for him to se the boys born, and he is very bonded to them. YMMV

  • Tom

    “Well, no, Mr. Mahoney. Of course not. You see, that man only uses the paper to line his bird cage. He doesn’t appreciate the book reviews, the Week in Review with all the fascinating articles about the world, he doesn’t ponder the Business section, the editorials, and such. You do, though. This paper is worth $5 to you, whereas it is only worth a quarter to this other man.” He smiles, believing he’s made perfect sense.

    This is what committing to a girl who’s given it up casually amounts to, paying $5 for a product that others get for a quarter.
    ________________
    That might be true if it were all only about sex. Real relationships , at least most of the ones that last, are not only about sex. All those other men got, was casual sex. YOU get her life, her dreams, her ambition, her sensitivity, her laughter, her tears, and most of all her love. Who got the the better deal?. The guy who only got an orgasm out of it,(a quarter) or the guy who got it all.($5.00)

    Y`all put WAY too much importance on sex.

  • J

    A woman begins to wonder to herself, “He seems overly eager to give himself to me when I barely know him. This is the first date, and he is already bending over backwards for me. What have I done to deserve such behavior besides showing up to this date and being a woman? If that’s all it takes to make him give me the world, he must be very desperate or easy to please.

    Yes, but also this: A man who jumps in giving too much also wants something, usually love, validation, whatever. That he is asking it from a stranger, who could be a terrible person for all he knows, makes him look STUPID at best and untrustworthy at worst.

    Back in the day, a man asked me to “go steady” with him on the first date. I responded, “That’s flattering, but you don’t know me.” At first, I felt he was foolhardily laying himself open to the possibility that I’d crap all over him and wondered why he was willing to take that risk. Then I wondered if he was just manipulating me, attempting to get sex by promising a relationship. Either way, it’s a problem.

  • Tom

    True. But about half of the people will be wary if they over do it.
    ._________
    Bull shit
    100% of the macho men definately care.

  • INTJ

    @ Ana

    Physics is the only real science. The rest are just stamp collecting.

    Yes! So true!

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Purity in science, xkcd already handled this one:

    http://xkcd.com/435/

  • Ted D

    J – “Real relationships , at least most of the ones that last, are not only about sex. All those other men got, was casual sex. YOU get her life, her dreams, her ambition, her sensitivity, her laughter, her tears, and most of all her love.”

    On some level I get that from my friends as well. I share my life, dreams, ambition, sensitivity, laughter, and love with my friends. The missing piece is the intimate connection that comes with being physical. Of course the relationship isn’t just about sex, but without sex it would be: a friendship. Sex is the thing that makes it special to me. Otherwise, I’m just living with a good friend. So yes, sex is very important to me in regards to my relationship with my SO. She is a good friend that I have sex with. Which again, to me, is nothing to feel bad about. Being my friend is a huge freaking deal. I do NOT use the term lightly. Being my mate means I consider you a good friend, and I am very physically attracted to you and want to make you more than my friend, by having sex with you.

    The sex is the defining characteristic of a relationship to me.

  • Tom

    @ Saywhaat,
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but you are saying that girls who were in a situation like I was are not powerless against cads. If my personal story is any indication, that is not true. Are you going to blame the girl whose boyfriend cheated on her for falling for a cad in the first place? No, because the information that he was a cheater was revealed after the fact. She is powerless in that relationship, because she did not know her boyfriend was a Cad until after he revealed himself to be one.
    _______________
    Finally a voice of reason and reality. I know it is easy to lie to a woman and get her totally interested. For the woman who REALLY wants to be in a relationship, falling for those lies is pretty easy for her to do. The fact that there are so many guys out there who are cads, most women have no idea, until after the fact, all he wanted was sex…..GREAT facts there Saywhaaat. Most guys have no clue women can fall for bullshit pretty easily and over, say 5 years, it could happen several times. Cads and players become masters at playing relationship “needing’ women.

  • J

    Thanks, Ted. That wasn’t harsh at all. I don’t mind sex being a factor. Women want that too be a part of the relationship too. I just want to know there’s more than just sex.

  • J

    I thought Tracy Clark Flory might be coming around, then she wrote about getting to have a ONS with her favorite male porn star.

    And even that story contained hints of disappointment and a search for connection.

  • Tom

    Ted to a point I agree with you. Sex is what separates me from my friends who are women and my fiance. But it goes a lot deeper than that, at least for me. Sure I care about my females friends, but not like I care for my fiance. I LOVE my fiance, or I should say I am in love with her. While I may love my female friends, my life is not dedicated to them, my old age is not dedicated to them, my finacial future and present is not dedicated to them, where they go to live or retire, really makes no difference to me, but it is a big deal to me concerning my future wife. If my female friends die, I would be naturally upset. If my fiance died, I would be devastated.
    When I am in a relationship, I am all in, both feet. I have already looked before I leaped.
    So, honestly to say sex is the “only” thing that separates my female friends from my life partner is false. it is deeper than that.
    I will tell my partner things I would never tell my female friends.

  • Abbot

    “Who got the the better deal?”
    .
    All the men who tagged her for an ejac shot obviously thought they got a great deal. She was treated as not being anything more. They threw a quarter on the floor for her, zipped up and left.
    .
    There are PLENTY of women in the world who were never ever valued as chump change. Why be the last chump and take that on. Why?
    .
    “This is what committing to a girl who’s given it up casually amounts to, paying $5 for a product that others get for a quarter.
    ________________
    That might be true if it were all only about sex. ”
    .
    It is not only about sex, as an act per se [although it probably is]. Its about treating something so deep on so many levels [including the production of life] so cheaply only because, for most women, its so easy to get and for most men it is not easy to get. Quarter-carrying sexually successful men like having sex with women just like that and do. But those men and the rest prefer not to commit to them for this reason and any other reason they determine. What is the point in denying this is how it is? Now, if someone does not like it they should step up and offer some method to change it. Spitting insults and vicious diatribes has not worked so isn’t it time to try something else?

  • Tom

    “only because, for most women, its so easy to get and for most men it is not easy to get. ”

    And the truth comes out as to why you have the attitude you have.

  • Abbot

    ““only because, for most women, its so easy to get and for most men it is not easy to get. ”
    .
    And the truth comes out as to why you have the attitude you have.”
    .
    Finally the truth comes out that this is a FACT. There are far more female sluts than male sluts and the latter decided against taking it further. Nothing wrong with that. But other men are right to not want to commit to these women if they so choose.

  • Abbot

    “women can fall for bullshit pretty easily and over, say 5 years, it could happen several times.”
    .
    sev·er·al/ˈsev(ə)rəl/
    Adjective:
    More than two but not many
    .
    Ok, not many but all that expressing embracing exploring extrapolating excommunicating ex this and ex that…and still she does not learn. Red flag!

  • Abbot

    Again, as its not getting through:
    .
    Spitting insults and vicious diatribes has not worked so isn’t it time to try something else?

  • Abbot

    “100% of the macho men definately care.”
    .
    Versus those without conviction, probably so

  • J

    @Ted #489

    The comment you responded to wasn’t mine.

  • Ted D

    J – DOH sorry. Someone did a walk-by at my cube and totally derailed my responding. :P

    Tom – “So, honestly to say sex is the “only” thing that separates my female friends from my life partner is false. it is deeper than that.
    I will tell my partner things I would never tell my female friends.”

    In all fairness, I did say that I felt I was presenting a very simplistic view of my relationship in that post.

    I can’t think of anything I would tell my SO that I wouldn’t tell one of my friends. And I don’t think you realize how deeply my few friendships go. If I call you a friend, that means if you called on me for help with something regardless of what it is, I’m going to help. Along with that comes the responsibility for me to NEVER ask my friends to help me with something that would/could be detrimental to them, because they will come to help regardless. Yes, I have friends that would help me hide the body. My friends ARE my family, and those bonds are deep and strong. Of course I would never ask them to help me actually hide a body, because I respect them and wouldn’t want to put them in that position, and that is precisely why they would help if I called: they know beyond all doubt if I asked, I’m in deep. (never mind the fact that I don’t make a habit of committing murder…)

    I don’t have any friends I wouldn’t trust with my life, but more importantly I don’t have any friends I wouldn’t trust my family’s lives with. I have very few close relationships. But I put everything I have into each and every one. So, from that perspective, I don’t see much difference between my SO and my friends in terms of the relationship, other than the added intimacy of sex and living together. Other than I would never, ever, under any circumstances ask my SO to help me hide a body. Not because I don’t trust her, but because I would not put her in that jeopardy. My instinct to protect her wouldn’t allow it even if I was in dire need, which of course I hope will NEVER be the case. :P

    In that respect, I do treat her differently from my friends. I feel an obligation to protect her that I do not feel for my friends. I have their back, but I would go out of my way to keep harm from coming to her. And of course adding sexual intimacy also adds an entirely additional level of interaction. For example: I hold my SO’s hand in public, because I have sex with her. I often snuggle and cuddle with her, because we have sex. All that “deeper” connection stuff for me derives from the sexual part of the relationship. I know this for fact because of how my relationship with my ex-wife is now. We are friends, and although I once held her hand and snuggled with her, not having sexual desire for her has completely removed my desire for all that additional intimacy. I’m good with our friendship sans PDA and the like. But we were friends when we were together, and we are still friends now that we are apart. We just aren’t having sex together anymore, so the relationship changed.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “Do you not think that economists contribute to our understanding?”

    Yeah, I got a kick out of this. Last time I checked, the basic laws of supply and demand, people’s desire to maximize utility, competitive market forces, and incentives driving economic behavior weren’t disputed anymore, except by anti-capitalists.

    It’s called the “dismal science” because of Malthus, who described pre-industrial society as a constant cycle of population growth followed by starvation, as demand for food outstripped supply. Malthus was right, but the industrial revolution changed all that. Modern economics certainly isn’t dismal, or inaccurate. Though it’s much better at analyzing historical data (why things happened) instead of future modeling (what will happen).

    There’s certainly a strong anti-knowledge trend online. Don’t like the CDC’s national statistics? Throw them out. Don’t agree with the conclusions of peer-reviewed research? It’s garbage. I’ve noticed that for the past 10 years.

  • Dogsquat

    Susan said:

    “Just a spoonful of sociopathy makes Dogsquat a healthy boy?”
    _______________________________________

    A direct question deserves a direct answer, so…

    Yes. For me, anyway.

    At one point, I would pay any price, bear any burden, suffer through anything – at the merest suggestion of a woman I was attracted to. In intellectual shorthand, I was raised to believe women were better than men, and my role was to be like a second-string player, serving mainly to take care of mundane bullshit so she could get on with the important stuff. Any fault was automatically mine, and I’d better work damn hard to correct it if I wanted to be worthy of a woman.

    That’s like the opposite of sociopathy, and just as unhealthy and destructive.

    Roissy (2008-2009) for me said,”Hey! She’s not better than you! Look at all the fucked up shit she does!” And I went….hmmm….maybe I’ve been doing this wrong the whole time. I was talking with Tucker, Bart, Jeff, Scott, and some of the other guys over at (now defunct) Rudius Media quite a bit, and that helped me change my outlook quite as well.

    I believe I’ve arrived at a happy medium. I value myself, and I value the people who I’ve allowed into my life. I was in quite a pit for awhile, Susan, and those were the tools I used to climb out. They are sometimes ugly, menacing, and destructive – but so is construction equipment, morphine, or anti-tank missiles. When used sparingly, with care, and at appropriate times, these things can be beneficial to the health of society.

    For the record, I view old-school Roissy in much higher esteem that Rollo, in part because of Rollo’s discourteous and tactless behavior here. I’m also glad I stumbled across Roissy rather than a Rollo-type on my journey, because Roissy is a romantic at heart. He’s angry, selfish, and manipulative – but one shred of him wishes he wasn’t. That peeks through at times – a little whimsy and joy does, too. Again, for the record – the first thing I did stumble across was David DeAngelo. You might like his older stuff (2006,2007), Susan – I can’t vouch for his work these days as I haven’t read it.

    Rollo has an attitude more suitable to planning an invasion – clinical and ruthless, and entirely lacking in fun. I find it distasteful (I don’t like actual invasions much, either. Scary!). His advice has greater potential for destruction/Pyrrhic “victory” than old-school Roissy, as well, because he attempts to speak on wider terms. I also wouldn’t want his life for myself.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat

      Thanks for clearing up just where you stand re the Ro’s. I confess that I have a soft spot for Roissy – a sort of maternal instinct, though we are not that far apart in age. He writes like a much younger man. I too sense his vulnerability – that is part of his brilliance. And I do think he’s brilliant. He’s one of the best writers I’ve ever seen – his poison pen is lethal.

      He deserves credit for casting a very long shadow. He has been very influential, and I have no doubt that he has helped many men. I’m not sure there’s a nobler life purpose than that.

      And seriously, is there somewhere you guys can get a full refund on all the bullshit you were fed about women being better than men? God, I hate feminist supremacy.

  • Dogsquat

    Susan said:

    “Men here have argued otherwise. In fact, a couple have gone so far as to say that sexual variety is a physical need, and a couple even said they become suicidal if they don’t get it. (Lucky for you, but not for us, you missed the Male Sexuality post and comment thread.)”
    ___________________________________

    In my eyes, that’s an indicator that the man has led a coddled life, free from deprivation and adversity. Or maybe they need a dictionary – “want” and “need” only mean the same thing to toddlers.

  • Dogsquat

    Hope said:

    “I’m probably not saying anything new to you, but I like pontificating on this subject anyway.”
    _______________________

    I wish I’d have heard this stuff 15 years ago, instead of learning the hard way. But you and I totally agree on steps to being healthy.

  • Dogsquat

    Susan said:

    “We have a tendency to project our own natures onto men, with disastrous results.”
    ______________________________

    Just wanted to chime in that women are not the only sex guilty of this little foible.

  • Dogsquat

    J said:

    “I find it hard to believe that there isn’t at least one smart ass remark to that question per shift in the average ER, much less one truly nasty response. Most hospital staff would have realized that my son was just being cute and let it pass.”
    _______________________________

    Oh, yes, there are many, many smart ass remarks by patients in a 12 hour shift at an ED. Very few are funny, and almost never do they make the job easier or contribute to patient outcomes.

    As to this:

    “Part of being in that position is knowing that there will be some blow back from your questions and taking it with humor if it is given with humor. Another part is being able to size up people.”
    ________________________________

    Next time you say something funny, I’ll respond in kind. And thanks for the advice on a career in emergency medicine. I’ll look into that – it sounds interesting.

    I guess we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think you were being a pedantic, time-waster, complaining about something to a person who has ABSOLUTELY NO POWER TO FIX IT.

    You think you were being funny and sassy and striking a blow for autonomy and whatever else.

    We’re never going to see eye to eye on this one.

    Seriously – you need to call the hospital administrator or The Joint Commission and complain, not the doc who will be pilloried by the Chart Nazis if he doesn’t check the box.

  • Dogsquat

    Mike said:

    “Take Dogsquat for example. One thing he is quite skilled at I think is recognizing this aspect of female communication and crafting his comments to meet that style. ”
    ______________________________

    See, Susan?

    Mike just called me a giant ovary in guy speak.

    Bouncers are idiots….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat

      See, Susan?

      Mike just called me a giant ovary in guy speak.

      Nah, that’s just a bit of male intrasexual competition. You should know that I (and all the girrrllls) adore both you and Mike C. But he’s right, you do have a way about you.

      As I said in an earlier comment, you guys have relationships and genuinely like women. That makes you OK in my book.

  • Dogsquat

    J said:

    ["LOL.. It’s a good thing that did soft-pedal that idea in your previous posts. Most women would hate to think that their company is less entrancing than a guy’s buddies’ company."/]

    _______________________________

    I’m not interested in what most women would hate to think. I am interested in giving them the tools needed to get what they really want out of life. It’s better to be happy and fulfilled than to be treated like a Faberge Egg.

    Please explain what “It’s a good thing that did soft-pedal” means if you’d like a response to it.

    ["Yikes! If that’s so, then there isn’t a lot to attract women to men other than having a provider."/]
    _____________________________________

    Yikes, indeed. Again, you miss the point. I am not talking about what attracts women to men in that passage. Entirely. Different. Subject.

    ["So other than this blog, what resources and approaches should be used to mold young women into desirable people. What would a desirable young woman’s persobality look like to you? I’m intrigued. I’ve heard enough jokes like, “Why do women have p*ssies? So that guys will talk to them.” to wonder what beyond sex and a hot meal you guys want.

    I ask this seriously. I have a number of platonic male friends, mostly married, who seem to really enjoy my company. "/]
    _________________________________

    I already said that there weren’t many resources other than Susan’s blog and a few she links to in the sidebar giving women the tools to become desirable to attractive men.

    As to my opinions – they are written about here fairly often, or over at Danny’s and The Private Man’s place.

    And I’m glad some men like you.

  • Dogsquat

    J said:

    “If you read all my comments in the context of the thread, it should have been clear that I wasn’t claiming that.”
    ___________________________________

    If you read all of my comments in the thread, you’d understand that I was not merely talking to you.

    You are also conflating biological needs with biological drives and evolutionary desirability. Look up the Irish Elk to prime your mental pump.

    J said:

    “I know that this wasn’t directed at me, Dog, but since I’m married with two kids, I can easily imagine myself in this scenario. My first thought: “Is there an an airsick bag in the back of the seat in front of mine?”

    Despite a predilection for the dark and hirsute Mediterrean male, I find Roosh gross. Please substitute a young DeNiro or Pacino, then carry on.”
    ___________________________________

    So you’d destroy your marriage for a few minutes of nakedness with an Alpha that meets your physical predilections.

    Nice.

    I’m going to have a great deal of trouble respecting you from here on out.

    Tell you what:

    Unless you put my name in ALL CAPS and direct a lucid, well thought out comment toward me, I’m going to skip over your posts. That will save me some mild irritation, and avoid cluttering up Susan’s threads. I doubt we have much to offer each other on the front of ideas, anyway.

    Have a very EMS day!

  • Dogsquat

    Gillian said:

    “The only difference is that I’m well aware of where the grounding for my beliefs comes from (culture), while you feel the need to claim that your beliefs are based on biology, without any real proof (even the proof you bring is all culturally contextualized – if the number ARE true…why assume the causes are biological and not cultural? especially when there are numerous other cultures throughout history and the present where facts are exactly opposite?)”
    __________________

    What proof would you accept that a trait comes from biology vs. culture?

    Could you perhaps provide an example – maybe one from humanity and one from another mammal? That would help me a great deal to understand your point of view.

    Another thing that struck me while reading your posts:

    It’s interesting to read about cultures that are unlike our present one – opens the mind a bit. Do you think that cultures who place a high priority on female chastity are more common than others? Why?

  • Dogsquat

    Off to work now. Won’t be back until tomorrow morning, probably. Please don’t be an idiot just because it’s Cinco De Mayo, folks.

    Don’t drink and drive, either, because I’m going to be scraping those off the road all night. And I’m too lazy for that shit.

  • Mike C

    Yeah, I got a kick out of this. Last time I checked, the basic laws of supply and demand, people’s desire to maximize utility, competitive market forces, and incentives driving economic behavior weren’t disputed anymore, except by anti-capitalists.

    Dude…seriously, I was referring to much more complex topics than laws of supply and demand and incentives. I’m glad you got a kick out of it, but I wonder what the depth of your knowledge is regarding economic theory. Do you know the difference between neoclassical economics, Keynesian economics, and Austrian economics? I’m going to steal from Vox here:

    “I don’t expect you to agree. I don’t even expect you to understand.”

    This isn’t an economic blog, but much of the financial crisis was due to the essentially flawed theory of the neoclassical school of economics which drove much governnment policy and regulatory decisions. The more macro point is that academics with PhDs are perfectly capable of generating theories that are bunk.

  • Mike C

    See, Susan?

    Mike just called me a giant ovary in guy speak.

    Bouncers are idiots….

    Haha…yeah you are just a pussy. :) Kidding aside, I’ve observed with admiration your verbal style here, and how its garnered you admirers, and maybe even created some excitement on the other side of the computer screen. :) There is a lesson in communicating with women there. Disarm/endear with banter/humor….then lay the truth down.

    I largely agree with your analysis of the two Ros. There clearly is a romantic streak/disappointed idealist in Roissy…..that leaves the door open for “redemption”. Rollo is the Von Clausewitz of the manosphere.

    Interestingly, one of my favorite movies is Law Abiding Citizen (Von Clausewitz is referenced multiple times). Arguably, the killer of his wife and child he ruthlessly disposes of is justified (IMO) but he takes his retribution way too far resulting in his own self-destruction and becoming the monster himself. I think there is a lesson there in understanding tactics and theories, but not taking them to excessive extremes.

  • Abbot

    “All that “deeper” connection stuff for me derives from the sexual part of the relationship”
    .
    That deeper connection must be desensitized and decoupled in order for men to stop placing a woman’s sexual past on his life mate selection criteria list. Think of the huge benefit imagined by this easy-recreation-sex group if men [the people they will eventually need for more than a romp] would just see sex for how they want them to see it: as a highly satisfying extension of kissing with the most stimulatingly attractive person willing to do it with you. That’s right folks, these faux social re-engineers want to embarrass people out of their insistence to place value on sex – that is men and the women who behave modestly. Less value on sex, less consideration given to sex. That way, women can be much freer to make sex choices today with one group of men that will have much less negative impact on their relationship choices later with this same group and all other men.
    .
    Now, how exactly is this getting done?

  • J

    @DOGSQUAT

    So you’d destroy your marriage for a few minutes of nakedness with an Alpha that meets your physical predilections

    Wow, you must be having one helluva day to confuse a joke about Roosh’s lack of attractiveness with a desire on my part to jeopardize my marriage. That’s just nuts.

    As to the rest, I don’t care to respond. I do agree that we should stop talking to one another. I will not respond to another of your posts.

  • J

    Not a problem, Ted. Just wanted to be sure, you realized what was up.

  • Abbot

    “The sex-poz crowd is a cautionary tale for women who want marriage and family.”
    .
    Ah yes. Ya know, there would not have to be such caution [ie good parents on guard for these creeps] if they were not always worming their way into large lecture halls to indoctrinate young minds. But alas…
    .
    “feminist author Jaclyn Friedman spoke about the commodity model — a heteronormative transaction in which women are expected to protect their sexuality while men are encouraged to pursue it”
    .
    Thats right. They just make this shit up, dress it with some highfalutin garbage and spew it out. And its this Friedman person who mocked Susan Walsh for using the term “sexual market place” last year after she managed to climb up to a podium and preached to her choir at a Boston slut walkers derby.
    .
    “Sex should be a conversation,” Friedman said. “It is hard to talk openly because we live in such a commodity world where men know everything about women and what we want.”
    .
    Well well. So men really are the target to be changed. What sex should be is whatever men decide it should be and if woman demand something different, men will follow along and change. But they are not going to give a hoot of attention to a self-declared slut and Craigslist cock hopper and neither should any self respecting woman.
    .
    “the auditorium, plastered with fliers, posters and ribbons, was packed with young women. ”
    .
    Image this scene packed full of women. Then Friedman asked
    .
    “Who would like to have sex with people who are actively into it?”
    .
    As if she assumes that these women do not know that men are always actively into it. WTF! Well maybe even Friedman does not get that. Maybe some of those Casual Encounter dudes showed up at her place and she opened the door wearing a moo moo and were like “umm, hi, umm I don’t think I can go through with this, umm like sorry, bye”
    .
    “Her lecture was inspiring because she uses dialogue we don’t normally have on subjects we don’t normally talk about,”said Colleen Leahy, member of the IU Division of Student Affairs and IDS opinion columnist.
    .
    Yeah, because its NOT normal! Your school mistakenly invited a freak to fuck with your minds.
    .
    http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=86695
    .

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    My DH was in the delivery room with me through a forceps birth and a c-section. I thought having him there would be more helpful to me than it turned out to be. (Things got very complicated medically before the forceps birth; if I had to say who was indispensible to me that day, I’d choose my OB.) OTOH, it was great for him to se the boys born, and he is very bonded to them. YMMV

    That is very nice for you and your husband. My you hubby will be accompanied by my in laws to distract him till the nurse tell him that we are both healthy and they can see both of us. It worked wonders for my parents and me since I was the first, YMMV.

    Purity in science, xkcd already handled this one:

    That was hilarious! Loved it! :D

    The missing piece is the intimate connection that comes with being physical.

    Yeah I totally see it that way is probably because we both don’t just jump in bed with everyone with the appropriate genitalia for us choosing a person to have sex with, is probably a way to signal how special that person is to us above anyone else, above any other people we had meet and been attracted to. So having to find that person doesn’t find us special except in a very convoluted way “I had sex many times but I made love to you” bullshit just make our choosing them just a mere act. Is like expending all day cooking a special meal for someone to find out that he/she would had been happy with just one hamburger at Eat and Out.

  • J

    That is very nice for you and your husband

    To clarify, I was sharing the pros and cons of my experience, not necessarily recommending that you should do same.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Hey, everyone. How’ve you all been? I’ve been lurking awhile, but haven’t had much opportunity to post.

    Gillian,

    This is what committing to a girl who’s given it up casually amounts to, paying $5 for a product that others get for a quarter.

    What?? no, it means getting to be with a person you love. Or are you saying that the only reason you get into relationships is to get exclusive rights to genitalia access with a particular woman? because personally, I (and the men and women I know) get into relationships because they, y’know love (or at least really really like) the person they’re in a relationship with.

    Not to mention the fact that sex isn’t a limited resource. I mean, how does the fact that a woman had sex with other men before affect the quantity or quality of sex you’d be having with her?

    I honestly and truly do not understand the reasoning behind this.

    I think what you’re failing to appreciate is how important–even integral–sex is to a relationship, particularly to men. It’s the one thing that unites all the men who’ve posted here, from Tom to Abbot, from Megaman to Roosh. We may not enter into relationships to get exclusive rights to a woman’s vagina, but we do base our commitments (in part) on mutual sexual attraction and mutual sexual values.

    There’s a lot of fuzzy thinking around this issue. Some people want to make the claim that sex and love are not connected at all–they can have sex with a person without experiencing an emotional bond with their partners. They also make the contradictory claim that sex, when introduced too early in a relationship, clouds one’s thinking, and prevents a person from developing a healthy emotional bond with his or her partner outside of the bedroom.

    I’m not opposed to waiting a bit before consummating a relationship, but I am opposed to waiting for any length of time with a woman who participates in casual sex when single. Because the implicit message is that I need to show value beyond my immediate sexual appeal in order to make the sex worth her time, while some rando at a party or club is deemed worthy pretty much right away.

    Does it make a woman bad if she finds some hardcore player at a club–or some douche bag varsity lacrosse player at a frat party–more sexually attractive than a man who presents a good prospect for a relationship? Not at all. But it does make a relationship-minded man question her capacity to commit to him.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    “I’m glad you got a kick out of it, but I wonder what the depth of your knowledge is regarding economic theory.”

    The kick I got was mostly from the idea that the study of human behavior (sexual or otherwise) is mostly garbage if you don’t like the conclusions reached. I think you said something to that effect, or close to it. Your perogative. Questioning someone’s honesty instead of the quality of their research is just an appeal to motive.

    I only have an undergraduate degree in economics. And I work for a financial institution that never considered making (let alone bundling and selling) subprime, adjustable rate, interest-only, stated income, zero down payment, etc. mortgage loans. We’re more regulated now (in an extremely cookie cutter-style) than before the recession, pay more for FDIC insurance due to other failed banks, and haven’t even changed our basic business model.

    There was no economic principle I’m aware of, except perhaps a tortured interpretation of the profit motive, that told banks to ignore their own underwriting standards, engage in mortgage fraud, and blindly make loans to anybody. Bad theory (markets are perfect, no regulation needed) doesn’t explain everything that led up to 2008. And the state clearly had a hand in promoting home ownership for all (a really bad idea), what with all that extra property tax revenue rolling in year after year (until it dried up).

    Inasmuch as the Glass–Steagall Act should never have been repealed, and banks that were too big to fail ought to have been (trust) busted into little pieces, willfully ignorant consumers share much of the blame for the current financial mess IMO. After all, they were the ones on the demand side of the housing bubble, weren’t they? Lying about one’s income in order to buy a home, the single largest investment most people will ever make, seems like an extremely stupid risk to take.

    Anyway, I know nothing about this stuff or relationships, so I’ll just refrain from conversing with your highness in the future.

    P.S. I’m on team Schumpeter, not Friedman or Hayek or Galbraith or Keynes et al.

    P.P.S. Susan, sorry for going OT.

  • Herb

    Catch up post on highlights and things addressed to me.

    @Ana

    To this day the one thing I’ll never forgive Joss is killing
    Tara.

    Or Fred or Wes or Walsh or….

    None of those hit me quite as much as Tara. I squeed when she came in and did
    her speech and then said, “And can we skip all that, can you just be kissing
    me now?”

    Yes guys, I squeed and I don’t care how beta that is.

    Interesting thing about Wes. He told Illyria the reason he didn’t want
    her to be Fred he didn’t want it embrace the lie. Then, as he was dying, she
    asks if she should lie to him now and becomes Fred. To me, I couldn’t help
    but be reminded of the Buffy episode *Lie to Me* and it’s ending. Given a
    topic here recently has been lying I think people might get some material for
    reflection from the two episodes, especially the idea of rejecting a lie that
    could be comforting as well as accepting a lie (and being the person lying) as
    a comfort.

    This might sound ignorant but this is the one of the most stupid thing I ever seen on this country. When I got married I make several promises including loving my husband in sickness and health. I know marriage vows are not legal but what is the point of making a commitment that can only be used when the other feels like it? It should be you are married you have full access to each other’s medical records if you don’t want that level of involvement with another person DON’T GET MARRIED!!!!

    My name is Herb and I endorse this message.

    @Dogsquat

    varanus said:

    “Or are you suggesting that women develop themselves extra-sexually?”
    ___________________________

    That’s it right there. Rounds complete, target destroyed.

    +1

    I’ve been trying to say that and lots of Game types do as well. We encourage
    women to develop in the same ways we used to encourage men. Women are then
    confused that men don’t want a GF who is just another guy to hang out. We
    need to encourage women to develop those things men desire in ways that
    match their personalities
    (ie, not Stepford Wives as Marcotte types will
    respond) in response to the question that brings women to Aunt Sue most: “how
    do I get a boyfriend”.

    Translating the personaly part: if you’re not a cheerleader, don’t try to be
    one because men want cheerleaders. There are lots of models beyond the prom
    queen, the head cheerleader, and the porn star to use as your starting point.
    However, you may need to head to popular culture prior to 1965 or so.

    @MikeC

    Excellent analogy. I had to Google therapeutic range to know what
    you meant. In my opinion, it is a guy thing to deliver a message in an over
    the top manner, and realize on implementation that you really need to moderate
    it. In other words, you don’t kick every girl to the curb who won’t screw you
    on the third date. But the key is to verify that she really is feeling
    authentic sexual desire for you, and not playing you for a chump. To this day,
    I’ m still waiting for some of the women to give concrete advice on how a guy
    is supposed to determine if a girl is really into him or sort of stringing him
    along, and whether he is being charged a large price difference. If one is
    going to criticize particular tactics or rules, then you have to be prepared
    to offer a guy a viable alternative.

    I’ve said a dozen times I’m here because I want an alternative to the PUAs
    (much less for myself than before this past weekend). I think women are more
    likely to provide it. The more they complain about the PUAs than offer an
    alternative the more men will think there is no alternative and women are just
    mad men have found the combination required.

    @J

    Young men have hundreds of resources and approaches to mold
    themselves into desirable people, increasing their chances of finding that
    teammate. Young women have Susan, a few bloggers she links to, and some folks
    who comment here. That’s it.

    So other than this blog, what resources and approaches should be used to mold
    young women into desirable people. What would a desirable young woman’s
    persobality look like to you? I’m intrigued. I’ve heard enough jokes like,
    “Why do women have p*ssies? So that guys will talk to them.” to wonder what
    beyond sex and a hot meal you guys want.

    Caveat on all of this: this is as individual for men as it is for women.
    Women seem to think men have no variation in what they desire.

    An ongoing engagement in a creative activity: music, art, writing, crafts.
    They don’t have to have a job doing that (in fact, that might be less
    appealing) but an ongoing engagement in being creative.

    A sense of beauty about life. This often goes hand in hand with the above.
    It also goes into how she maintains herself. This doesn’t mean makeup or the
    latest fashions, but knowing how to dress to flatter herself would. However,
    even just having her own discernable style instead of just throwing cloth over
    her body would work. For example, the current gf loves skulls and has a lot
    of skull clothing of someform (often in fun expressions and colors). Even
    though her style is mostly jeans and tee shirts (I arguably dress better) the
    unifying style that reflects her and reflects an effort to expressing what she
    finds attractive does more for me than being hip the latest fashions. Her
    dressing appeals to me more than any SitC women despite them being much more
    fashionable to women.

    Genuine confidence, which sadly so few people have today (see the comments in
    this thread about high self-esteem and no self-worth). This doesn’t mean no
    body issues, for example, but it does mean enough confidence in herself to
    work those body issues, especially to not interfere with us. Confidence also
    doesn’t mean challenging. In fact, I think most challenging women have very
    little confidence.

    They need to engage in a passion. Often, this would be the creative thing
    above but it could SCA heavy weapons fighting, saving abandoned animals, or
    running every 50 mile plus race in the US. See, I want a woman to be
    passionate about me someday and knowing she both can be passionate and engage
    that passion gives me confidence that if we have chemistry and I put my best
    out for her to see what I can be that when I’m passonate about her she’ll do
    the same.

    Does that help?

    BTW, most female regulars on HUS have already starting scoring on the last by
    their passion about understanding the SMP and helping people navigating it.
    in helping other people work

    @Susan

    No, I am not pleased that the number of virgins is increasing. It
    tells me that people are lonely and unhappy. It also tells me that the culture
    of casual sex is not working for most people. Although men and women have
    different goals re sex, the fact that 40% of college students are virgins
    tells me that a huge number are not even involved in the negotiation we call
    mating. That’s a tragedy for young people 18-22, IMO. If there is a silver
    lining, it’s that the numbers tell us there is a real opportunity for an
    alternative to hookup culture – it won’t help this group of students,
    unfortunately, but perhaps it’s a place to start trying to change the
    culture.

    How about if casual sex went down and virgins went up but more people were
    happy?

    @Abbot

    “Who got the the better deal?”
    .
    All the men who tagged her for an ejac shot obviously thought they got a great deal. She was treated as not being anything more. They threw a quarter on the floor for her, zipped up and left.
    .
    There are PLENTY of women in the world who were never ever valued as chump
    change. Why be the last chump and take that on. Why?

    I find a lot of sluts who try the “but I’m making you wait because I respect you” fasinating.

    How about respecting yourself first.

    I know a lot of people whose choosen roles in their relationships including
    considering themselves and referring to themselves as properties where their
    partners are their owners. I spent the past weekend with several of them and
    the ones I was with have more self-respect in my experience than the reformed
    sluts trying the “because I respect you game”. They understanding they are
    something valuable and they want the people who own them to be people who see
    that value.

    That they are better about valuing themselves and making choices reflecting
    that value than a significant percentage of mainstream college women does not
    reflect well on mainstream culture.

    And now, two personal replies

    @Hope re: Having a horse and wanting a pony
    I worked on this a lot this weekend, including going back to some particular
    things in my past. There were times I was open to having a horse, not a pony
    and even a time I wanted a horse (although a specific breed). I realized the
    part of me open to a horse is still here but buried under something I took
    from my divorce (or more specifically how my divorce gave enough growth
    hormone to make something I’ve always had as an issue the biggest thing in my
    psyche). So I’m going to relax about having a horse and work on digging out
    the manure burying the riding field I have.

    @Hope @Ana @J and anyone else who commented on it re: last rodeo
    After this weekend, I’m going to stay on the circuit if this rodeo ends. I
    also found some questions to ask (well, one very specific one) to evaluate
    this rodeo and see if it’s worth staying to see if it never ends. I asked it
    last night and the answer, along with a couple of random things, have told me
    I can work towards what I want, but I need to shovel the manure above (among
    other things) to clear the path.

    @All the HUS regulars
    During the retreat one thing we did was an “ask it basket”. You put in
    questions, without signing your names, and we had a long session where people
    tried to give their answers. In one case, in response to two nearly identical
    questions, I drew heavily on things I had learned at HUS, especiall about
    those non-existant differences between men and women. Not only was my
    solution to the problem well received by everyone but someon stood up and
    started pressing my hand and said, “I’m pushing your ‘like’ button”. By the
    end of the evening someone had drawn a like button on my hand.

    I could not have answered it without the insights you all have given me and I
    am humbled by how generous you have been in education me (and all the other
    posters) so a huge “thank you” to Susan, Hope, Dogsquat, Ted, J, Ana, Sassy,
    Tom, Abbot, and the other regulars who I am forgetting out of mental failure
    and not the failure of their insight. You helped me appear wise.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      How about if casual sex went down and virgins went up but more people were
      happy?

      That would make me very happy indeed. It would also decrease the marriage age, which would be a good thing.

      Not only was my
      solution to the problem well received by everyone but someon stood up and
      started pressing my hand and said, “I’m pushing your ‘like’ button”. By the
      end of the evening someone had drawn a like button on my hand.

      :) That’s a charming story!

  • INTJ

    @Herb

    I’ve said a dozen times I’m here because I want an alternative to the PUAs
    (much less for myself than before this past weekend). I think women are more
    likely to provide it. The more they complain about the PUAs than offer an
    alternative the more men will think there is no alternative and women are just
    mad men have found the combination required.

    I strongly believe that the conventional model of men giving men dating advice and women giving women dating advice is very flawed. They should be giving each other dating advice.

    I mean if you want to meet a nice guy/girl, what better way to find out where they hang out than to ask one?

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    Interesting thing about Wes. He told Illyria the reason he didn’t want
    her to be Fred he didn’t want it embrace the lie. Then, as he was dying, she
    asks if she should lie to him now and becomes Fred.

    I always though that it was a very human thing to do he knew he was dying and that Fred’s soul was not where he was going, wherever that might be so seeing her a last time even if it was a lie was better that going to hell by the hand of Illyria it was a beautiful sad but totally unnecesary moment. Fred’s death impacted me the most because it was just a few hours after she got together with Wes and Joss decided to destroy her soul too. I mean at least I can fanwank that Tara and the others are in that universe version of heaven Fred not so much… :( Joss you are a bastard thank goodness Avengers didn’t let him kill a love interest…this time (Great movie BTE you should watch it)

    My name is Herb and I endorse this message.

    You, Hope and I probably are the only ones that see this as the ideal situation for marriage I’m sure people that LOOOOVe their privacy was just recoiling in horror thinking that is not necessary to have a long lasting relationship except that it is.

    I could not have answered it without the insights you all have given me and I am humbled by how generous you have been in education me (and all the other posters) so a huge “thank you” to Susan, Hope, Dogsquat, Ted, J, Ana, Sassy, Tom, Abbot, and the other regulars who I am forgetting out of mental failure and not the failure of their insight. You helped me appear wise.

    I will thank you, to you and everyone here as well. The way I think better is bouncing ideas and you and everyone in HUS had helped a lot to learn new things that I’m sure had made me a better person that I was before I encountered this corner of the Internet :D

    PS
    I’m glad to know that you are not quitting altogether. Hoping you find what you are looking for sooner than later :D

  • J

    Hi Herb,

    Sorry to be so late in responding to you. My DH had flu Sunday and yesterday, so I’ve been off the net. I like your description of desirable female traits in post 528. I asked my question in response to another poster’s statement that women who had more than sex to offfer were rare. I think truly worthwhile people hard to find, they are definitely out there. I think it’s hard to make connections, but I can say for sure that it’s unlikely that anyone is going to pick up a girl like in a club. That being said, a young J would have fit that description, and I met my husband in a bar, at a b’day party for a friend of a friend. There was an element of dumb luck and kismet in our meeting.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      I am so sorry DH has been ill! Wow, I thought flu season was over, I thought I was out of the woods.

  • J

    @Herb,

    Just finished your post. I’m happy to hear that you had such a successful weekend! It sounds like a step in the right direction, and I’m thrilled that you plan on continuing in the search to find what you are looking for. I myself was in my early thirties and about to give up when I met DH. In fact, I think I had sort of given up. I had a vibe of being liberated from that struggle, as opposed to one of sadness and desperation, that was probably attractive to him. I’m happy to be listed among the folks whose insights have been helpful to you. I’ve learned a lot from people here as well. As Mike C. said, the process here is inductive. Everyone has a piece of the puzzle.

  • J

    Thanks, Susan. He came home early today, but he’s on the mend.

  • Penny

    hmm…
    This is quite nice .. thanks for sharing ….