The Best Way to Let a Guy Know You Like Him

May 11, 2012

 

 

It turns out that was actually a guy dressed in a clown suit looking for love. But she wasn’t talking to him. So as always, everyone was sad but the dumb guy. -Will

Employing a strategy of Coy Flirtation isn’t the best move in today’s dating and mating environment. While it’s not a guarantee (see above), being direct is the most effective way of showing interest in a man. Promiscuous women are generally quite practiced at this, but women preferring a more traditional approach to sex and relationships may be sending signals too weak to pick up. 

Based on societal changes in women’s roles and changes in women’s attitudes toward dating behavior women were expected to be likely to approach men. Additionally, based on prior research examining women’s role in flirting, a significant effect for type of opening line was hypothesized. Opening lines that directly indicate an interest in dating were expected to be perceived as most effective and most direct by both men and women.

Barking Up the Wrong Tree: What’s the best way for a woman to show interest in a man?

  • Jonny

    Women who prefer a traditional approach need a wing man with whom she can be direct. If there is no wing man, create one. Use the middle guy as the wing man since she was obviously nervous to the guy in the clown suit; however, I’m not absolutely clear who she is interested in.

  • J

    @SW

    So when my mom told me that a boy chases a girl until she catches him, she was wrong.

    @Jonny

    I think the point of the cartoon was that the girl was going after the middle guy because he was the one she was attracted to, but the clown was the guy who was looking for love, though unattractive. She wasn’t open enough to look past the clown suit.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think the point of the cartoon was that the girl was going after the middle guy because he was the one she was attracted to, but the clown was the guy who was looking for love, though unattractive. She wasn’t open enough to look past the clown suit.

      I thought it was that the regular guy has low self-esteem so he assumed she was talking to the clown. What woman would ask a clown on a date?

  • Underdog

    Hahaha

  • Herb

    One of my favorite exchanges from the show Sports Night (my favorite sit-com of all time):

    Jenny: I… uh… just took it to the next level, didn’t I?
    Jeremy Goodwin: Did you?
    Jenny: If you’re not sure, then I didn’t do a good job.
    Jeremy Goodwin: That’s not necessarily true. I’m not that good with these kinds of things, and usually a girl needs to smack me in the head and hold up a sign.
    Jenny: That’s good to know.

    I’d like to point out three things:

    1. Jenny is a porn star, yes a woman the man in question has seen in porn (although he hasn’t realized where he recognizes her from).

    2. Jenny had started flirting by talking about math.

    3. In the end, to get him to ask her out she wrote “ask me out” on a napkin, smacked his upside the head, and when he said, “what did you do that for” held up the sign.

    If you are one of Susan’s 80% of women wanting one of the 80% of men to notice you, you might think you’re invisible because you’re not a porn star. It is just as likely you’re invisible because he’s so used to women not being interested he wouldn’t even notice if a real porn star hit on him.

  • Herb

    Oops, cut myself off:

    So, be direct…and to be honest, even hold up a sign.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    This study just confirmed my fear surrounding this. I am totally crushing on this hot guy at my gym. We are always exchanging eye contact (and there is some eye fucking involved too) and smiles but neither one of us will approach the other. Well, I am expecting him to approach, of course. First off, I am really uncomfortable with approaching a guy and also the thought of doing so makes me feel really masculine. Therefore, it makes sense that promiscuous women who are said to have high levels of testosterone can approach men with ease.

    I suspect the guy at the gym is pretty feminized and is expecting me to approach him and I have given it some serious consideration but when it is time I just feel weird (okay scared). To be honest, I am already losing interest and he looks a little frustrated waiting. He can continue to wait because it probably will not happen. I have made it clear as I can with the direct eye contact and smiles, which are universal signs for displaying romantic interest. I may need to start manning-up but I know the guy that I will have to man up to will not produce any tingles for me once I get to know him. I may need to get testosterone injections or remain unattached.

    The feminization of American men is truly an American tragedy in and of itself. A real tragedy.

  • Sassy6519

    I thought it was that the regular guy has low self-esteem so he assumed she was talking to the clown.

    That’s how I took it too. She was talking to the guy in the middle, but the guy didn’t believe that she was talking to him. He thought she was talking over him to the clown (AKA the Ronald McDonald statue).

  • Emily

    >> “What woman would ask a clown on a date?”

    Awww… Now any clowns reading this blog are going to feel very discouraged. :(

  • Cooper

    Honestly, I thought the guy in cartoon just happened to be eating beside one of those Ronald McDonald manikins.

  • INTJ

    @Liza207

    This study just confirmed my fear surrounding this. I am totally crushing on this hot guy at my gym. We are always exchanging eye contact (and there is some eye fucking involved too) and smiles but neither one of us will approach the other. Well, I am expecting him to approach, of course. First off, I am really uncomfortable with approaching a guy and also the thought of doing so makes me feel really masculine. Therefore, it makes sense that promiscuous women who are said to have high levels of testosterone can approach men with ease.

    I suspect the guy at the gym is pretty feminized and is expecting me to approach him and I have given it some serious consideration but when it is time I just feel weird (okay scared). To be honest, I am already losing interest and he looks a little frustrated waiting. He can continue to wait because it probably will not happen. I have made it clear as I can with the direct eye contact and smiles, which are universal signs for displaying romantic interest. I may need to start manning-up but I know the guy that I will have to man up to will not produce any tingles for me once I get to know him. I may need to get testosterone injections or remain unattached.

    The feminization of American men is truly an American tragedy in and of itself. A real tragedy.

    You can approach him while acting coy and feminine. Like sit next to him looking all cute and say hi.

  • Cooper

    @Liza
    “but I know the guy that I will have to man up to will not produce any tingles for me once I get to know him.”

    Is this based on experience, or just a perception that a shy-guy isn’t a man?

    ” I have made it clear as I can with the direct eye contact and smiles, which are universal signs for displaying romantic interest.”

    Is that really as clear as you can be? Do know how many people exchange eye-contact and smiles?
    The dude at the gas-station, the middle aged lady I held the door open for, the bus driver I yielded to in traffic, and so on. None of which I feel had a romantic interest in me.
    But I’m supposed to approach every girl that makes eye contact and smile?

  • Bob

    If a woman was coy with me I’d find it extremely attractive, it’s more feminine to me.

  • http://thegatewayboyfriend.blogspot.com dan_brodribb

    Sports Night reference of Glorious Victory. Loved that show.

    My favorite was Jeremy’s speech to Natalie at the poker game about trusting him although that show was a gold mine for good dialogue.

    And there was always…

    FELICITY HUFFMAN: I only told Natalie because she’s my assistant.
    NATALIE: I only told Jeremy because he’s my boyfriend.
    JEREMY: I told many many people.

    I also stole the line “For I am Dan, doer-of-good-things-for-women” for a while.

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Liza207

    So, you can’t stand the idea of rejection.

    What if he says no? What if he doesn’t turn on the alpha on your command? What WOULD the girls say?

    This post argues that being direct is best (and I’d tend to agree with that, but I’m just a man). Yet despite that, you can’t stomach the idea of employing the advice. Even though you’re crushing on the guy!

    And since he hasn’t approached already, he must be feminized and won’t do anything for you? You come across as very judgmental. Maybe he’s taken. Maybe he’s unsure of how to approach in the gym setting. Maybe he’s actually aware of the legal risks he takes just by asking you out! Ever consider these things?

    No, he’s just feminized. A “tragedy.” And rather than do anything about it, you’d prefer to sit here and grouse?

  • Jonny

    @Liza “I am totally crushing on this hot guy at my gym. We are always exchanging eye contact (and there is some eye fucking involved too) and smiles but neither one of us will approach the other. Well, I am expecting him to approach, of course.”

    If making eye contact still isn’t enough, then maybe he doesn’t want to approach you. Maybe he has a girlfriend or wife. It might be better to not assume he is feminized. The thing about chance encounters is it doesn’t happen too often. Men do not have enough practice in cold calling. Many times they are shot down. Guess how many times I was rejected? 9 out of 10 times.

    Yes, you should approach him. It isn’t about you being masculine, but times have changed and women do need to approach men in some circumstances. Do this to at least close the subject.

    “The feminization of American men is truly an American tragedy in and of itself. A real tragedy.”

    What women don’t realize is men have adapted to female behavior. Even without feminism, women are largely indifferent, obnoxious, and arrogant. Where men encounter women, they defer to them based on custom, expectations, and the inevitable big mouths that they have. Women are fighters and men cannot fight back in verbal spats.

    Use your brain. Women are aggressors. The fact they women are not doing enough to increase their dating chances is perhaps more telling of their attractiveness and their actions.

    If you want the date, ask for it. Otherwise, maybe this flirting activity is really a preconceive action on the part of the guy. He probably knows you will reject him anyways. You already accused him of being feminine. What’s up with that?

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    “…Based on societal changes in women’s roles and changes in women’s attitudes toward dating behavior women were expected to be likely to approach men..”

    I think the study is saying that men are now expecting women to approach them more often than not. It does not appear to be 50/50, it is ,as if women are now expected to absorb almost 100% of the risk.

    Don’t you think this makes men now appear very feminized? I personally find it a bit disturbing. Although, I know where the feminization is a result of–it still bugs me.

  • Esau

    Liza207: ” I have made it clear as I can with the direct eye contact and smiles, which are universal signs for displaying romantic interest.”

    Like, that’s your entire toolkit? Srsly?

    I tell you, the lack of initiative, imagination and feminine wiles on the part of American women is truly an American tragedy in and of itself. A real tragedy.

    “I suspect the guy at the gym is pretty feminized”

    Is your gym at the YMCA? It could be that he’s playing for the other team, if you know what I mean (just sayin’).

  • Cooper

    @Liza
    Yeah, I think you should approach, if you feel intereste. And I don’t think it makes you masculine either.

    Expecting a guy to approach based off a smile isn’t very far from mind-games – expecting him to read you mind. Which guys don’t like, IMO, it’s no wonder you can tell he’s fustrated. He probably can tell your rolling your eyes at him for not going the 9/10th the distance after you’ve gone a 1/10th.
    That’s just the way I see it, approaching definitely take x9 the courage than eye-contact and a smile. (something Id associate more with passing a stranger on the street than romantic interest)

  • Jonny

    In traditional societies via film or documentaries, women are expected to use manipulation, wing men, and circumstance to pull in the guy. It isn’t merely to get the date, but to get the guy to marry them. The women are committed. There is no half-baked flirting or eye contact.

    What I don’t get is why modern women do things half way and expect full buy-in from the guy.

  • Wudang

    Lisa207:

    You can drop something, your purse for example, right when he passes you. He should then help you pick it up and then a conversation is easy to start, FOR HIM. Or you can “acidentally” bump into him with your back as he passes, while you were seemingly totally engaged in conversation with someone else and had your back towards him as he passed and was unaware of him. That also alows him to start a conversation. Women have used stuff like that for centuries and use it in the movies. It works very well because it is still indirect and lets him believe he got the break he needed to start the conversation easily or even if he does understand what really happened it does nt matter much because what officially seems to happen lets him keep his masculine active dignity in tact and you your feminine indirect and responsive dignity in tact.

    As for signaling strength in todays SMP. In a discussion of eastern european women a guy described how women from different EE countries comunnicated and could be placed on a scale of indirect to direct. In Poland I think a woman needing money would drop very subtle hints, a woman from Romania or someting would drop less subtle hints and women from Ukraine would just say “Give me money. NOW”. My guess would be women adapt their signals to the degree men are able to pick up the signals and start out as indirect as possible and eventually goes full direct.

  • Jon

    I thought it was a poor picture – looked like two girls, one with a short hair cut and a clown!!

  • Jacko

    I find it interesting that, in the age of feminism, women are happy to have equality in matters where they want equality [e.g. competing with men for the same jobs, enjoying sexual freedom], but they’re perfectly happy with the pre-feminist status quo on areas in which they don’t want equality [i.e. asking the opposite sex out on dates]. Must be nice being able to have your cake and eat it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jacko

      Must be nice being able to have your cake and eat it.

      Heh, it is, which is why they don’t want to give it up. We’ve got gender equality, and that’s a done deal, so it’s time for women to give up on chivalry and courting. They should share the responsibilities for the attraction and what follows equally. In time, they will learn they have no other choice. As the marriage rate continues to decline, women will compete more aggressively for the marriageable men. But it’s going to take a while. A woman who is willing to meet a guy halfway today has a competitive advantage.

  • Ted D

    Liza – “I think the study is saying that men are now expecting women to approach them more often than not. It does not appear to be 50/50, it is ,as if women are now expected to absorb almost 100% of the risk.”

    Well, men shouldered 100% of the risk since… well the beginning of time? Anyway, feminism wanted to create equality. So, here you go! Take all this risk and run with it. Maybe after a decade or two we’ll take some of it back from you, but I’m not making any promises… ;-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “I think the study is saying that men are now expecting women to approach them more often than not. It does not appear to be 50/50, it is ,as if women are now expected to absorb almost 100% of the risk.”

      I think a lot of guys are happy to approach if the risk of rejection is lowered significantly. Direct eye contact and smiles reduces it, obviously, but not entirely. That same girl may have a bf, or maybe she’s just a shameless flirt in general. There are a lot of those around these days.

      From a female POV, your best chance at having attraction reciprocated is to make it very clear you’re feeling it. That means shouldering some of the risk – I don’t think men really expect women to do it all. Some of the risk each time, or all of the risk some times, and there will be times when guys still do approach and you take on none of the risk. But the woman who is prepared to go direct will do better than the woman who is passive.

      “You miss 100% of the shots you never take.”
      Wayne Gretzky

  • Kirk

    Regarding the comic, when a woman says a guy looks “sweet” she generally means one of two things: she considers him to be a sexually repulsive chump or she thinks of him as a useful idiot (i.e. “You look sweet! Will you please hold my purse?”)

  • J

    I thought it was that the regular guy has low self-esteem so he assumed she was talking to the clown. What woman would ask a clown on a date?

    I thought that the girl had low self-esteem because her approach was so graceless and tentative and that the clown suit was symbolic.

    LOL. It’s like a Rohrshach test.

  • Eating cake

    Jacko-“I find it interesting that, in the age of feminism, women are happy to have equality in matters where they want equality [e.g. competing with men for the same jobs, enjoying sexual freedom], but they’re perfectly happy with the pre-feminist status quo on areas in which they don’t want equality [i.e. asking the opposite sex out on dates]. Must be nice being able to have your cake and eat it.”

    The problem with telling everyone you are strong and independent is that eventually they start to expect you to be strong and independent. One of the chief goals of Feminism is to protect women from having to actually prove they are strong and independent.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    I don’t fear rejection, it happens. Approaching guys is just uncomfortable for me. I guess as a woman I have never put a lot thought into having to be aggressive /assretive when it comes to men. I grew up in an environment surrounded by very aggressive/assertive men. I am not aggressive when it comes to men but I am in other areas of my life (in business and the arts you do have to face a lot of rejection). I know very few women who are aggressive when it comes to approaching men. I usually see that kind of aggressive behavior from slutty women or older more desperate women.

    I have spoken to older women (Baby-Boomers) about male bahavior in the current SMP and most of them are absolutely dumbfounded and have harsh things to say about how feminized men are today. I agree with them but at the same time I am irritated with them because they act as if they don’t know why. My own mother irritates too because she has always seen casual sex as empowering. She and her generation have created a horrible mess for me and other women who share my values and beliefs.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Liza207

      Feminism has robbed men of their roles and replaced them with women, or has tried. The result is a surfeit of masculinized women and feminized men. That’s the result of denying gender differences. A whole two generations has been re-engineered. Biology will win out in the end of course, but I’m interested in what people can do right now.

  • Herb

    @Cooper

    But I’m supposed to approach every girl that makes eye contact and smile?

    No, just the ones who want you to approach. If you approach ones who don’t you’re a creep:

    http://xkcd.com/642/

    @Liza207: Internalize the above cartoon. Most men have experienced that at least once by their 20s.

    Plus, as people have pointed out:

    1. He might have a gf
    2. He might be married
    3. He might be gay
    4. He might not be into you.

    I say put on the big girl panties and go talk to him.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Like, that’s your entire toolkit? Srsly?

    Esau,

    Yep. That is all Ive got.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Wudang,

    I am making a trip to Europe next month for the first time. I am really curious about the dating climate there and how the men will respond ti neb when they are interested. I would not mind meeting a Pierre, Antonio, Claus or even an Ian just to see how they differ from American men.

    I had a Russian girlfriend who was really aggressive when it came to men but it did not work out for her most times. She was a bit too much for the men here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I believe the eye contact threshold for sexual attraction is three seconds. To be safe, double it. If you stare him down for 6 seconds and he looks away, let it go. Personally, I’d find a way to tease him a bit.

      I think Mike C met his gf at the gym. They were staring at each other a lot, and then at some point she started walking the long way around to avoid him. I can’t recall the exact details – maybe he’ll stop by and fill us in. But I think that finally got him to approach, and he learned that she was avoiding him because she was so nervous. They really, really had the hots for each other, but it might never have happened!

      I heard a cute story last weekend. Carly went to a CVS pretty late at night to get a Gatorade after the bar closed. They were on special and the sign said 2 for 1. She approached a cute guy she’d noticed when she walked in held up two Gatorades and said, “Wanna be my Plus One?” They went out for brunch the next day. How adorable is that?

  • Zach

    @Cooper

    Yes, I make eye contact and smile with lots of people. However, it’s generally very clear when this is meant as an invitation to approach. You make eye contact and smile with people you normally would run into (cashier, delivery guy, doorman, etc). You don’t normally make eye contact and smile at people on the other side of the room at a gym. The context is very important, and in this case I’d say she’s being blatantly obvious. I think there’s two possibilities here: the guy is taken and enjoys the attention (who doesn’t), or he’s too nervous to approach.

    @Herb

    You rarely get the creep label if you have any talent at approaching. If you’re confident, witty, and direct you can get rejected a lot, but you’ll almost never get “creep” tagged to you. The creep label gets tagged to the sweaty, clammy, nervous, can-barely-speak approaches.

    @All on women approaching

    Yes, it does happen. I’ve been approached before. But in general, women don’t do it because by and large they’re AWFUL at it. It really cracks me up sometimes to see how nervous and bumbling they often are. If the girl’s attractive, this lack of talent is disarmingly cute. The far more common situation is for the girl to put herself in the easiest possible situation for you to approach. Most often this happens where the girl will physically position herself so close to you that it’s almost impossible not to talk, as you’ll like bump into her, spill a drink on/near her, or something similar. I often take the invitation if I’m interested, or chuckle at it when I’m not because it’s so blindingly obvious and cute.

  • INTJ

    @Liza207

    Yep. That is all Ive got.

    Even in the old pre-feminist days women were expected to do more than just eye contact and smiling.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Well, men shouldered 100% of the risk since… well the beginning of time? Anyway, feminism wanted to create equality. So, here you go! Take all this risk and run with it. Maybe after a decade or two we’ll take some of it back from you, but I’m not making any promises…

    —–
    I am not really a feminist. I know my limitations as a woman and I am fine with that. I just don’t believe in emulating male behavior or competing with men–not interested.

  • Isabel

    Liza: “Therefore, it makes sense that promiscuous women who are said to have high levels of testosterone can approach men with ease.”

    Hey, no fair. If you want something, you have to work for it. I made up some lie about not knowing where the library vending machine was to break the ice with a cute guy. (BS, I know the cocoa content of every bar in that thing.) Not sure why the gods smiled on me but the machine was broken resulting in a chatty consolation trip to the convenience store. What do you have to lose, really? Other than your self-esteem and stuff.

    If it goes right, it’s fun.
    If it goes horribly wrong, it’s practise.

    /sneaksbackoutslowly

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If it goes right, it’s fun.
      If it goes horribly wrong, it’s practise.

      /sneaksbackoutslowly

      Ha, Isabel! It’s been ages, don’t sneak away!

      I cosign your advice. Also, rejection gets easier with practice.

  • http://eradica.wordpress.com Firepower

    I KNOW girlz just love to open convo with guys like that…

    But, alas – I cannot help
    those type of fellows

  • Escoffier
  • Herb

    @Herb

    You rarely get the creep label if you have any talent at approaching. If you’re confident, witty, and direct you can get rejected a lot, but you’ll almost never get “creep” tagged to you. The creep label gets tagged to the sweaty, clammy, nervous, can-barely-speak approaches.

    @All on women approaching

    Yes, it does happen. I’ve been approached before. But in general, women don’t do it because by and large they’re AWFUL at it. It really cracks me up sometimes to see how nervous and bumbling they often are.

    So, guys bad at approaching => creep
    Girls bad at approaching => cute

    @Liza207

    I am not really a feminist. I know my limitations as a woman and I am fine with that. I just don’t believe in emulating male behavior or competing with men–not interested.

    I’m going to make to you a point I made in the prior thread you glossed (you replied to the rest of the post but not this one):

    Backbone is not dominance.

    Than means approaching a man (backbone) isn’t “emulating male behavior” (dominance). It’s making someone aware who might not be.

    I may need to start manning-up but I know the guy that I will have to man up to will not produce any tingles for me once I get to know him.

    I hate to say this, but if you need so much dominance that merely having to approach a man makes him feminized in your eyes you might be headed for real trouble. Lots of women like you wind up in my world and invariably their first few trips around the block are ugly. I have no reason to think their vanilla counterparts fare much better.

  • Ted D

    Liza – “I am not really a feminist. ”

    Well, as you stated above, the feminists before you messed it up. Now, regardless of if you buy into feminism or not, you and everyone else (men and women equally) have to suffer for it. This is just one tiny example of how badly things are screwed up.

    Now, I’ve been told repeatedly that I can either:
    1. complain and whine about it, do nothing, and suffer
    or
    2. adapt and be happy.

    Might I suggest to you that learning to approach might be in your best interests, even if it makes you uncomfortable? I am still uncomfortable with being “dominant” but I’m doing my best to figure out how and feel OK with it because my only other option is #1.

    It really sucks when you have to take your own medicine. ;-)

    But hey, you are in really good company!

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Chris_in_CA,

    Yes, I am very judgmental. I guess the comes with being INTJ and I am also 91% intuitive. According to the test I took here (I took it twice and the results were the same each time).

    So, yeah I do judge harshly and very aware of a man (or woman) showing romantic interest no matter how subtle they think they are being about it.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Liza
    “I am not really a feminist. I know my limitations as a woman and I am fine with that. I just don’t believe in emulating male behavior or competing with men–not interested.”

    So act like a woman, be feminine, and go ask him if he would like to go on a walk to cool down after the work out. Plan a route so that if he doesn’t take the lead or have an idea of where he wants to go you end up at a coffee shop or smoothie place. Have some feminine clothes ready to wear after your workout so that you can look like a woman. You’re not competing with men, you’re not taking a masculine behavior, attitude, or strategy. You’re playing to your strengths and showing him you’re a feminine woman who’s interested in him.

  • Zach

    @Herb

    So, guys bad at approaching => creep
    Girls bad at approaching => cute

    Yes, exactly. Sexual double standard. Believe it or not, they do exist. You can cry all you want, but how many girls do you know who have been labeled a “creep”?

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Sassy
    “She was talking to the guy in the middle, but the guy didn’t believe that she was talking to him. He thought she was talking over him to the clown (AKA the Ronald McDonald statue).”

    One thing that I just noticed and is funny to me, but Ronald has a totally Alpha body language going on. Confidently taking up space while having a good posture, head up, looking at the world. Just take away that shit eating grin. Then either some self deprecating humor at his outfit, or just ditch the clown suit, and he’d have women crawling to snuggling into that arm non-stop.

  • Herb

    @Zach

    I was more pointing that out for Liza. Even if she’s bad at it, it is more likely to be cute than bad.

    Also, I think women in general who complains men don’t approach needs to internalize that double standard and calibrate their responses to men who hold no interest to them.

    If you claim “X is all I want” and then piss on X when offered you’re not going to get much X (unless X is “someone into golden showers”).

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    Lisa #6, I’m under the impression that you think you’re being forward with “eye contact” and “smiles”. I’m catching up on this thread – so someone may have already pointed it out – but you’re not.

    Eye contact and smiles happen all the time and mean all sorts of things, and I’m sure that, like most of us, this guy you’re crushing on has been trained to not make too many assumptions. Fact is, he can get into a lot of trouble these days if he makes the wrong assumptions.

    It’s disconcerting that you think being more forward than that is “masculine”, and that he’s “feminized.” (I’m just quoting your words here.) Is that a common thought in your group of cohorts? I hope not. Look at the cartoon again. The female stick-figure is being very feminine, almost demure. The male stick figure is being cautious, and rightly so.

    By the way, some seem to have missed that the third character *is* a Ronald McDonald manikin. He’s not real, and the guy in the middle knows he. He’s been trained to believe that he ranks rather below manikins in the SMP. In his world, females don’t approach him like that (just everyone else), so she’s obviously going after a dummy first. That’s the low self-esteem part.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Did I not mention the eye-fucking that goes on between us? Eye-fucking, people.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Did I not mention the eye-fucking that goes on between us? Eye-fucking, people.

      Maybe he thinks you’re DTF and he’s not the casual type. Maybe he sees “troublesome slut and psycho clinger” in that eye-fucking. I don’t know, but it’s possible.

      I know one woman whose go-to strategy in bars is to eye-fuck a guy for as long as it takes until he comes over. And I mean as long as it takes. 10 or 15 minutes? No problem. A couple of summers ago one guy took the bait, got her number and called her. They went out. At the end of the night he expected her to come over. She said she thought it was best if she head home. He grabbed her hand, put it on his hard cock, and told her she better deliver on her original offer.

      The weirdest thing is the ending to this story. They’ve been a serious couple ever since. I don’t approve, but she’s never asked me. He’s a controlling jerk, but she got exactly what she asked for. She’s very pretty, btw. And he’s not. I really don’t get it.

  • Ted D

    Liza – you are an INTJ? Pretty damn rare for a woman, but it is funny because I’ve been chatting with one on another blog, and just today I said something along the lines of how close to a unicorn she was.

    I will say that knowing this does make sense of your approach and directness when posting. Since finding out about MBTI, I’ve often wondered if being in a relationship with an INTJ would be easier. I think in many ways it would, but I can see that if we ever found ourselves on opposite sides of a debate, it could really get nasty quickly.

    Perhaps the dominance thing is an INTJ trait? I and other INTJ men I know seem to find it hard to be “dominant”, and so far the two INTJ women I know (you included of course) seem to greatly desire dominance in a mate. Perhaps we are just not dominant people?

  • Jonny

    “Eye contact and smile” does not mean approach. I know I’m going against consensus when I say this. It might signal friendly interest or curiosity, but not necessarily romantic interest. The biggest problem with approaching one for a date is the presumption that women are interested. It’s a leap of faith. The guy can open his mouth and instantly the circumstances change.

    The change in circumstance is what women don’t take into account. Women can change their minds. They can give out their phone numbers and don’t accept the call. They can simple beg out. Its seems like women just want to be able to get the opportunity to shoot the guy down. Most approaches are NOT successful.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Liza

    Normally I wouldn’t respond to you again so quickly, but this caught my eye:

    “Yes, I am very judgmental. I guess the comes with being INTJ and I am also 91% intuitive. According to the test I took here (I took it twice and the results were the same each time).”

    There is literally nothing more of a turn off for any masculine, alpha guy than a judgmental woman. You should work on curbing that in or you’re in for a world of hurt. Three roads lie before you:

    1. Changing that instinct so you can find a man that satisfies you without henpecking him to death

    2. Riding the serial monogamy train for the rest of your life with Alpha men who have options that learn they don’t want to deal with judgmental attitudes when the next girl at the gym looks just as good as you and won’t make him wade through judgmental attitudes.

    3. Doing number 2, or simply skipping to this action, and settling with a beta, effeminate guy who would have made you happy if you hadn’t beaten him into the ground and then ground him into dust with your judgmental attitudes.

  • (R)Evoluzione

    Great post, Aunt Suze.

    My brother came up with the concept of ‘pinging’ to describe the palpable sense of a woman directing her sexual interest your way. Due to its short bursts of intensity, almost like the waves of sound used by dolphins, bats, and submarines for navigation and communication, a woman’s interest, to a subtly & sexually aware man, is unmistakable and striking.

    However, not many men are so aware. For many, Twirling your hair, touching your collarbone, laughing at his jokes are just speaking in a foreign language that most men can’t even hear. Thus, the analogy to sonar is also apropos.

    Girls, to convey interest to the average guy, you need to do more than ping him (unless he’s sexually attuned such as myself), you need to send an actual radio message in his native language.

    You can always try pinging first, and then if he’s too dense, you can always become more overt in your communications. But believe me, if you ping me, and I think you’re cute, I’ll be sure to follow up on that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @(R)ev

      I love that pinging concept, and also the sonar analogy.

      Here’s the thing – if a guy is good at picking up subtle cues it generally means one thing:

      He’s had a lot of practice, i.e. he is “fluent” in the language. Massive social proof. The odds of his wanting a relationship are probably low, depending on age.

  • Giraffe

    In high school a girl told me I didn’t know when chicks were flirting with me.

  • Augen

    Add to it all risks that are now mundane like rejection and ridicule which are beat out further by inticement then rejection then ridicule and bettered after that most of all by inticement followed up by rejection-laden-with-contempt-for-his-existence … it seems like men can be forgiven for responding cautiously to no approach, or a coy approach. I sometimes do (respond to the coy approach), but I always ask myself if she’s worth it first. She really has to be worth the risk.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Augen

      Whenever a woman sees another woman give a nuclear rejection, she should call her out on it immediately. That unfortunate practice by total bitches has given all women a bad name and really upped the ante for guys.

  • Zach

    @Jonny

    Yes, most approaches are not successful. So? Does that mean you should never approach. The guy who approaches 10 women and gets 2 dates has a lot more dates than the guy who approaches 0 women.

    And generally smiles and eye contact in situations where there’s no call for it are generally invitations to approach. Even if you’re wrong, what’s the big deal? I’ve mistaken friendliness for interest before, approached, and been rejected. My life did not end.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Ted D,

    I really could not imagine dating another INTJ we would drive eachother completely nuts. Besides, neither one of us would make a move towards the other anyway to get anything started, so…

    Yes, I really do want and need dominance in my man. It might explain the men I have been attracted to in the past. And, you all know what kind.

  • J

    OK, I’m completely confused about what the cartoon means. Yes, in retrospect, the clown does look like one of those McDonald’s statues. But what about this quote from the post?

    “It turns out that was actually a guy dressed in a clown suit looking for love. But she wasn’t talking to him. So as always, everyone was sad but the dumb guy.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      “It turns out that was actually a guy dressed in a clown suit looking for love. But she wasn’t talking to him. So as always, everyone was sad but the dumb guy.”

      That’s why I interpreted it the way I did. The dumb guy automatically assumed she’d prefer the clown. What Joe said, except that it was not a statue. The clown was sad because she said, “No thanks.” She was sad because her invitation was intercepted. The dumb guy had such low expectations he could not be disappointed.

      Doghouse Diaries is written by three different guys. Sounds like one of them saw this happen.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    There is literally nothing more of a turn off for any masculine, alpha guy than a judgmental woman. You should work on curbing that in or you’re in for a world of hurt. Three roads lie before you:

    —–
    Leap of a beta,

    This is true, actually. I have scared away a few masculine, alpha guys because I was being too judgy. I have also rejected alphas because I judged them as being horrible manwhores and man-sluts. And I was right everytime–that was the intutive thing at work. ;)

  • Harkat

    @Lisa207

    I wouldn’t say smiles and looks are universal signs of romantic interest. Not in a world where feminist go on about “Just because I smile at you/talk with you/laugh at your jokes/hug you does not mean I am interested in you”.

    Also, there’s a difference between making the first move and acting masculine. If it’s too much for you to at all approach then suit yourself, but surely just striking up a conversation with him won’t make you feel masculine? You don’t have to grab his crotch and point at the bathroom, just start small talking. He might well still be the first to properly escalate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Let’s come up with some good approach lines for Liza. My first suggestion is:

      Your pheromones drew me over here.

  • Herb

    @Harkat

    You don’t have to grab his crotch and point at the bathroom, just start small talking.

    If she’s willing to work at that level she could just see what’s in his left rear pocket and put matching hankies in her right one.

    As much as I laugh at flagging (even though I totally get it if you’re into being that casual), maybe it’s time has come to go mainstream

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    I wouldn’t say smiles and looks are universal signs of romantic interest. Not in a world where feminist go on about “Just because I smile at you/talk with you/laugh at your jokes/hug you does not mean I am interested in you”.
    ——–
    Oh no, icky!

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Liza
    “This is true, actually. I have scared away a few masculine, alpha guys because I was being too judgy. I have also rejected alphas because I judged them as being horrible manwhores and man-sluts. And I was right everytime–that was the intutive thing at work. ”

    So you don’t like men who aren’t dominant, you have proof that the ones that are will usually screen you out (and no, you didn’t “scare them away,” they judged you to be not worth their time when they could find someone else more enjoyable to be with), and you screen out the few dominant men who would spend time with you as ‘players and manwhores.’

    In what world do you expect to find this unicorn you appear to be chasing?

  • http://date-masters.com/blog John Robie

    Opening lines that directly indicate an interest in dating were expected to be perceived as most effective and most direct by both men and women.

    “Hi, what’s your name? Nice to meet you, (name). What’s your phone number? Why? So I can call you, and ask you on a date.”

    This works fine for me as a guy with the goal of making an extremely clear date offer. I wildly speculate it may just work out for women who are cold approaching guys and want to avoid sending ‘weak signals’ as well. Your mileage may vary, but hey, no way to know but to ‘man up’ and test it out yourself, right?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “Hi, what’s your name? Nice to meet you, (name). What’s your phone number? Why? So I can call you, and ask you on a date.”

      Very nice. A blend of the traditional with a touch of cockiness.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    Now, first off, hanging out with Ronald McDonald is not a good look.

    Second- while girls asking guys out directly SOUNDS good in practice, very few women will have the stomach for it. In my experience- the strategy that works is 1)Look Good and 2)Be in his space

    Even if a guy isn’t that assertive, if you make it natural for him to fall into conversation with you, he will probably take the bait. And yes, for some guys you will have to make multiple passes at this. But generally if he thinks you’re attractive and you’re being sociable, you’re in. The key is for it to be as natural as possible.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BroHamlet

      Now, first off, hanging out with Ronald McDonald is not a good look.

      Haha, you’re right!

      Second- while girls asking guys out directly SOUNDS good in practice, very few women will have the stomach for it.

      Agreed. I haven’t heard of many approaches that direct from women. Personally, if I were attracted and getting in the guy’s space didn’t do it, I’d start up a conversation, being flirty and funny, and try to build rapport. If he didn’t take the bait, I wouldn’t risk anything more.

  • Jonny

    @Zach “Does that mean you should never approach. ”

    No, but don’t be disappointed if he doesn’t. If he doesn’t care, his loss is only theoretical. He hasn’t lost what he hasn’t attempted.

    @SusanW “Biology will win out in the end of course, but I’m interested in what people can do right now.”

    Its seems like biology depends on women more than men. Unless women marry and have kids at younger ages and decide for forgo careers, men won’t pick up their end since they cannot or will not.

    This complaining about men who won’t date them reeks of displaced anger. Even as low as the marriage rate is, feminism is succeeding in turning husbands into bachelors and wives into sluts. There are more singles than ever and every single female wants a chance at a eligible bachelor except that it doesn’t work that way. Women have made themselves ineligible with high sexual partners (relative to the man), older (beyond 30), higher income/status, and a perception of superiority.

    If you want biology to prevail, marry young, have kids, and stay married.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Feminism has robbed men of their roles and replaced them with women, or has tried. The result is a surfeit of masculinized women and feminized men. That’s the result of denying gender differences. A whole two generations has been re-engineered. Biology will win out in the end of course, but I’m interested in what people can do right now.
    ——-
    This has all gotten out of hand. I really cannot wait until everyone comes to their senses on this and that probably won’t be for another two generations.

    If a female asked for my advice on this I would tell her the same thing; meet the guy half-way. I might also add, get over yourself too. Ha!

  • Herb

    @Liza207

    Two quick context questions: how old are you and roughly where are you?

  • irishmaninsoflo

    Honestly men are not that complicated,just sit beside him,you don’t even have to approach ,you have plausible deniability.If you are attractive he’ll talk to you,odds are he’ll talk to you anyway.Remember it’s just a conversation,shoot the breeze.Read http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com/
    has good stuff and lady friendly,and http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/ the same.

  • irishmaninsoflo

    Women that approach and hit on you are the best kind of women. And although you do have to be at a certain level of attractiveness, it’s not as difficult as you may think it is. Women try to talk to me fairly frequently, and as a result, I have it down to an almost exact science. I know how to get women to approach me at will.

    Most of you are probably thinking that the best places to get hit on are at bars and nightclubs. Wrong. I’ll let you in on something interesting: most of the women who approach me are sober or haven’t drank enough to really be considered drunk. I am most likely to get hit on by women in places where there aren’t alcohol or where you don’t really drink to get drunk (i.e. a classroom, small party, or restaurant).

    Why are women most likely to hit on men when they are sober? They aren’t. Sober women are usually women that don’t frequent nightclubs, at least not on any kind of normal basis. What that means is that they don’t see too many attractive men, so when they see one, they are more likely to approach him. Most of the women who approach me work a lot and don’t have time to go out too often.

    Also, you should do more alone. Why? Because your friends can make women more nervous to approach you, or they could see your friend as unattractive and her friend won’t want her to approach because she thinks that she’ll get stuck with the unattractive friend. The last three women to approach me approached me when I was alone, or they thought I was alone.

    Remember in school how you would sit next to a girl that you liked hoping that she would talk to you? Well, if you’re attractive, keep doing it. Nine times out of ten, if you are attractive, and sit close to women, they will talk to you. Don’t make a woman have to walk across a room to talk to you. Simply sit next to them, mind your own business, and let them choose to talk to you.(credit Assanova’s now defunct blog)
    reverse the sex’s and it still applies,alone or a maximum of three in your group,if there’s a guy in your group you probably won’t get approached at all.

  • Jonny

    @Liza “This has all gotten out of hand. I really cannot wait until everyone comes to their senses on this and that probably won’t be for another two generations.”

    2 generations of what? Are you getting married and having kids? What people raising our future generation?

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    I think Mike C met his gf at the gym. They were staring at each other a lot, and then at some point she started walking the long way around to avoid him. I can’t recall the exact details – maybe he’ll stop by and fill us in. But I think that finally got him to approach, and he learned that she was avoiding him because she was so nervous. They really, really had the hots for each other, but it might never have happened!
    ——
    I found myself taking the long way around the gym yesterday to avoid him because the situation is making really nervy now. I wonder if he was waiting for her break the ice and when she started avoiding him that finally prompted him to finally approach.

    I read somewhere online that if a woman feels nervous about approaching a guy and does not know what to talk about then start a conversation by talking about their surroundings. You are both at the gym then talk about things related to that environment. I had every intention of doing that but…

    That was a very cute story. It was also very clever using something they had in common at the moment to get his attention.

  • AJW308

    What woman would ask a clown on a date?
    Isn’t that clown heir to the McDonald’s fortune and she’s just a golddigger?

    When I read it, I took it that the guy had Game down pat. He was being aloof and/or insinuating that the girl was beneath him and therefor flirting with the clown.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      When I read it, I took it that the guy had Game down pat. He was being aloof and/or insinuating that the girl was beneath him and therefor flirting with the clown.

      This is hilarious, it really is a Rorschach.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    The weirdest thing is the ending to this story. They’ve been a serious couple ever since. I don’t approve, but she’s never asked me. He’s a controlling jerk, but she got exactly what she asked for.She’s very pretty, btw. And he’s not. I really don’t get it.

    Up thread I said:

    if you need so much dominance that merely having to approach a man makes him feminized in your eyes you might be headed for real trouble. Lots of women like you wind up in my world and invariably their first few trips around the block are ugly. I have no reason to think their vanilla counterparts fare much better.

    The friend is the vanilla counterparts I had in mind.

    I have a theory that at least some fraction of the women who get in serial abusive relationships or stay in the same one are merely chasing ultra-high levels of dominance. Not chasing alpha in the normal sense we mean here, but a high level of personal dominance like controlling behavior.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      I have a theory that at least some fraction of the women who get in serial abusive relationships or stay in the same one are merely chasing ultra-high levels of dominance.

      You may be right. I haven’t ever met another woman who would stare so intently for so long to send a signal. It’s like she refuses to take no for an answer. She’s like a black widow spider, so only the most dominant men might approach. Your average guy is probably going to come close to calling her creepy.

      As I said, she’s quite pretty, so this behavior is not even necessary. She must have been fishing for a particular type of guy.

  • Cooper

    Liza, you sounds like the epitome of what makes me nervous about approaching women.

    You seem to have an exact idea of what kinda of man you could ever be attracted to, as if you know more about how a man should act than I do.
    And you have a trigger-finger ready to blow off any guy that deviates from this picture.
    You sound like the girl of my fears – one that is constantly (almost anxiously) looking for signs to verify, their almost predetermined opinion of why, I’m not man enough?

    No offense. But seriously, I’d be terrified of approaching a women who is just dying to find that reason why their not attracted to me. (if you look hard enough, you’ll always find something – a flaw)
    You sound like you’d send a man packing after a single demonstration of anything remotely Beta, even if everything was great until then.

    I can be dominant, and I can accept that women find it attractive and that some need more of it than others to be attracted, but the thought of having display it all the time, in fear of deviating from your obviously predetermined perfect-build, EEK SCARY!

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Maybe he thinks you’re DTF and he’s not the casual type. Maybe he sees “troublesome slut and psycho clinger” in that eye-fucking. I don’t know, but it’s possible.
    ——-

    Yeah, is it inappropriate. Sometimes, I can be a little clueless about how men will misinterpete my actions. Like when, I posted pictures of myself in a bikini on a popular dating site and was wondering why the wrong kind of men were contacting me and being overtly sexual when we were communicating . Duh!

    Okay, nix the eye-fucking.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    Whenever a woman sees another woman give a nuclear rejection, she should call her out on it immediately. That unfortunate practice by total bitches has given all women a bad name and really upped the ante for guys.

    Not going to happen…the kind of women who do this run in packs and will try to out do each other.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Herb,

    I am thirty-something from NYC. Oh, boy.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Cooper
    “I can be dominant, and I can accept that women find it attractive and that some need more of it than others to be attracted, but the thought of having display it all the time, in fear of deviating from your obviously predetermined perfect-build, EEK SCARY!”

    Best way to deal with it is to own it. Act like every thing you do should be attractive to them, even your flaws. Add in a little humor to it too. Should get a smile from them, they’ll gloss over it, and be happy that your dominant side told them to ignore it. Either that or she’s not someone you want to be with anyways. Or, occasionally, it’ll trigger the ‘I’m going to fix this guy’ instinct. Dangerous – can blow up in your face or turn her off.

    But mostly, just have fun. Laugh at the world, her, and yourself. I do it in that order.

  • Dave

    Jack said:

    “I find it interesting that, in the age of feminism, women are happy to have equality in matters where they want equality [e.g. competing with men for the same jobs, enjoying sexual freedom], but they’re perfectly happy with the pre-feminist status quo on areas in which they don’t want equality [i.e. asking the opposite sex out on dates]. Must be nice being able to have your cake and eat it.”

    Great post, I couldn’t have said it better myself. So many women want “equality” until the risk arises that the “equality” might cause them discomfort, hardship or pain. Then they want to whine and bitch about how men won’t ‘man up’.

    Women with attitudes like that better deal with it. It’s not our problem, ladies. Get out there, ladies and start getting rejected like us men have been from time immemorial. Being ‘empowered’ is great, no?

    And while you’re at it, enjoy your “equality”.

  • Herb

    @Liza207

    Herb,

    I am thirty-something from NYC. Oh, boy.

    Okay, so you’re having a hard time finding your level of dominance.

    How willing are you to try meeting people (not a date or anything, just people) out of your comfort zone? And no, I’m not hitting on you (not my type and I’m in Atlanta).

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    You sound like you’d send a man packing after a single demonstration of anything remotely Beta, even if everything was great until then.
    —–
    No. I really like betas but they can be kind of slow on the uptake at times and I wish they would just take more risks with women–namely me. A beta guy with some dominance is ideal to me. Susan, says this all of the time about what women prefer and it is true for most. I am finding that most men these days are either all beta or all alpha. I have uncles who have beta traits but also possess some alpha traits but they are from a different generation. So, they did not have all of the dominant manly traits socialized out of them.

  • Dave

    Liza207 said:

    “I am finding that most men these days are either all beta or all alpha. ”

    Agreed. Unrealistic expectations, chronic criticism and the rejection that they ultimately lead to have a way of smothering men’s confidence. And many men got that not only from women they hoped to have a relationship, but also got that at home while growing up.

  • Mary Elaine

    This is a pretty interesting post. Learning the best way on how to let a guy you like know what you feel is indeed a very good thing for a girl. Where did you get this idea? Well anyway, thanks for sharing your tips here! I really enjoyed reading this post.

  • Jemi

    Wow, this post looks good. It’s a good thing to know this method of conveying your feelings to somebody especially for the girls who want to tell what they feel about a guy. Thank you very much for sharing your advice on this matter. How does a man respond to this kind of situation? Your blog is really fun by the way.

  • Jonny

    “I really like betas but they can be kind of slow on the uptake at times and I wish they would just take more risks with women–namely me.”

    Are you sure you’re a woman? You’re a diamond in the rough. You need some training in a charm school. You need to learn some manners.

    If your schtick isn’t working, adapt and change.

    The thing about taking risk. LOL!!!! Go back to the post about Emotional Prudery. He has nothing invested in you emotionally. You’re not worth the risk.

  • INTJ

    @Liza207

    Without clear indications of interest (such as striking up a conversation and standing close to the guy), statistically speaking, a guy has an 80% or higher chance of rejection. By your interest to eye contact and smiles you’re filtering for the guys who who don’t care about rejection – generally the players and cads. This is a bug, not a feature.

  • INTJ

    @Mary Elaine, Jemi

    Welcome to HUS! Hope you stick around. :)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Leap of a Beta

    One thing that I just noticed and is funny to me, but Ronald has a totally Alpha body language going on. Confidently taking up space while having a good posture, head up, looking at the world. Just take away that shit eating grin. Then either some self deprecating humor at his outfit, or just ditch the clown suit, and he’d have women crawling to snuggling into that arm non-stop.

    If you google “Ronald McDonald statue fellatio”, you’ll see a few pics of girls pretending to give the Ronald McDonald statue a blowjob. I thought it was funny and strange at the same time.

    You aren’t off base about his alpha pose at all.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Are you sure you’re a woman? You’re a diamond in the rough. You need some training in a charm school. You need to learn some manners.

    If your schtick isn’t working, adapt and change.

    The thing about taking risk. LOL!!!! Go back to the post about Emotional Prudery. He has nothing invested in you emotionally. You’re not worth the risk.

    ——-
    Wow.

  • Cooper

    @Liza
    “No. I really like betas”

    I didn’t get a sense of that, at all, when you said,

    “I know the guy that I will have to man up to will not produce any tingles for me once I get to know him.”

    Well, that guy Susan describes, as a perfect combination of beig Beta with Alpha too, may fit into that “will not produce tingles for me once I get to know him” category you made for yourself.

  • Passer_By

    Liza:

    You need to understand that men, especially young men, have been bombarded with the feminist message that their advances in places like gyms are unwanted and borderline harrassment. Women complain constantly about getting hit on in gyms and other places where they just want to be able to do what they came there to do. Many men take that to heart to one degree or another. Most who don’t are players, so you are sort of self selecting for players.

    @susan

    “Let’s come up with some good approach lines for Liza.”

    How about: “Hey, we’ve been eye fucking for a while now. Maybe it’s high time we start progressing toward the real thing.”

    That oughta get his attention.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      “Hey, we’ve been eye fucking for a while now. Maybe it’s high time we start progressing toward the real thing.”

      HAHA! I’d love to see the look on his face.

      Good to see you pass by – I was thinking of you yesterday, and I see it worked to summon you :)

  • Iggles

    @ INTJ:

    Without clear indications of interest (such as striking up a conversation and standing close to the guy), statistically speaking, a guy has an 80% or higher chance of rejection. By your interest to eye contact and smiles you’re filtering for the guys who who don’t care about rejection – generally the players and cads. This is a bug, not a feature.

    I agree with this. I tell my friends all the time, even though it’s scary you have to at the very least send out clear IOIs! If not, the men you’re interested in will not think that you like them! Being “friendly” with a guy you like is the kiss of death. If you treat him like a platonic friend how is he going to know you’re romantically into him?

    I’ve been coaching friends with tips on online dating, and yes even in that venue it applies. If you want a guy you’re talking with to ask you out, you have to make it easy for him to ask him out. Mention a movie or art exhibit you’d like to check out. If he’s into you, 9 times out of 10 he’ll take the bait!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think both sexes have also oriented themselves to expecting the worst. I’ve seen numerous young couples where both kept claiming the other wasn’t interested, despite the fact that it was obvious to everyone else! It usually takes a good mutual friend to knock some sense into both of them. That can work in a social circle, but just think of the connections between strangers that never happen.

  • summer

    Great subject! :)

    I’ve never directly approached a guy before (and don’t see myself ever doing so), but if I have the stomach for it at the moment I’ll gravitate toward their general vicinity, make small talk with them, ect. This is *extremely* difficult for me as an INFP though, not so much as a woman–at least, that’s what I tell myself, lol.

    Oh, and on the rejection front I *only* reject a guy in the least public and quietest way possible. If I’m with a friend I’ll ask the guy if he wants to step aside to speak. If he uses an indirect approach (ex. starting off with “cool shirt…” or something) I keep it a surface conversation unless he escalates it, after which I again only reject quietly.

    When it comes to rejection I don’t know when outright cruelty became popular, but it’s ugly. A friend in college did that and I had to drop her, though not only for that reason. She would literally scream at some of them. Scary.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Wow, we have a lot of new commenters on this thread! I won’t clutter the stream with individual welcomes, but I’m glad to see all of you here and appreciate your taking the time to comment. Stick around!

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “I was thinking of you yesterday, and I see it worked to summon you”

    It’s “Radar Love”

  • http://jabootu.net/?p=4714 Pip

    Leap of Beta wrote: “There is literally nothing more of a turn off for any masculine, alpha guy than a judgmental woman. You should work on curbing that in or you’re in for a world of hurt. Three roads lie before you:

    1. Changing that instinct so you can find a man that satisfies you without henpecking him to death

    2. Riding the serial monogamy train for the rest of your life with Alpha men who have options that learn they don’t want to deal with judgmental attitudes when the next girl at the gym looks just as good as you and won’t make him wade through judgmental attitudes.

    3. Doing number 2, or simply skipping to this action, and settling with a beta, effeminate guy who would have made you happy if you hadn’t beaten him into the ground and then ground him into dust with your judgmental attitudes.”

    Can’t lurk for this one: This is a wonderful summation. I’ll be upfront: I can be a judgmental, strident chatterbox. As a 5’1″ itty-bitty, it’s that or get ignored and I refuse to be ignored. (My step-bros call me the “air-raid siren.”) I chose option three. My guy is a bookish, second-generation Veitnamese-American from Houston who is a permanent law clerk for a federal court of appeals judge.

    Now, the manosphere would immediately discount him as an effeminate doormat. But he’s not. He’s quiet, traditional, religious and polite but also super logical, immensely patient and the kind who can find the best path with calm, sincere argument.

    We’re two puzzle pieces that look completely different but which fit perfectly together. I declare the destination – he charts the best course.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Pip

      Thanks for sharing that honest description of both you and your boyfriend! I love that you appreciate his excellent qualities.

  • Leapofabeta

    @ Sassy

    Hahaha. I’m waiting to run lights for a show I designed, but I’ll check those out later. Just the thought of it makes me laugh though. I’m not surprised – posing with statues is the favorite drunk, or even sober, passtime of mine and a bunch of my friends when we travel or explore. Last time we did that was me and a friend acting out an Indian getting stabbed by a colonial followed by a girl in the group having…. Interesting poses under a 25 foot statue of Marilyn Monroe with her skirt getting blown up.

    Chicago has hilarious statues and architecture for those that have eyes to see it

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    That hideous Marilyn Monroe statue has been taken down, thank you very much.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    For the record, guys can be very, very obtuse. Particularly guys who have almost no success with women, the very IDEA a woman wants to be with him is…

    Well.

    What would you do if someone just walked up to you and offered you a million dollars?

    Yeah, it’s sort of like that. The idea that someone smiling at you wants to hand you a million dollars doesn’t make much sense, right?

  • GudEnuf

    If it’s too scary for a woman to ask a man out directly, she can ask a friend to help. Just ask your friend to talk to the male and say something like

    “You know, Sally didn’t want me to blab about this, but she thinks you’re super hot. You should ask her out!”

    This method is less scary then directly asking a man out, but it still lets the man know unambiguously that you like him.

  • INTJ

    @GudEnuf

    If it’s too scary for a woman to ask a man out directly, she can ask a friend to help. Just ask your friend to talk to the male and say something like

    “You know, Sally didn’t want me to blab about this, but she thinks you’re super hot. You should ask her out!”

    This method is less scary then directly asking a man out, but it still lets the man know unambiguously that you like him.

    This is gold. Needs to be stickied or something.

  • GudEnuf

    Susan: I believe the eye contact threshold for sexual attraction is three seconds. To be safe, double it. If you stare him down for 6 seconds and he looks away, let it go.

    So if I want to know if a woman likes me, all I have to do is make eye contact for six seconds and see if she breaks contact? If so, my life just got a lot easier.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So if I want to know if a woman likes me, all I have to do is make eye contact for six seconds and see if she breaks contact? If so, my life just got a lot easier.

      Yes, exactly. This applies to strangers, btw. Random encounters or first sighting. I’m not sure about the work environment, people you already know, etc.

  • Jon

    Women complain constantly about getting hit on in gyms and other places where they just want to be able to do what they came there to do.

    I have never approached a woman in the gym for this very reason.

    If you want a guy you’re talking with to ask you out, you have to make it easy for him to ask him out. Mention a movie or art exhibit you’d like to check out. If he’s into you, 9 times out of 10 he’ll take the bait!

    That sounds like a great suggestion to me. A natural way to start the conversation would be to ask to work in with him on whatever piece of equipment he’s using or ask him to spot you.

  • GudEnuf

    Awww, thanks INTJ.

    I have had a woman ask me out using this method and I definitely appreciated it. If I know a woman likes me, it’s easy to ask her out because there’s no risk of rejection.

  • Emily

    >> “If you google “Ronald McDonald statue fellatio”, you’ll see a few pics of girls pretending to give the Ronald McDonald statue a blowjob.”

    Wtf made you think to Google that?????????????????!!!!! :0

  • Emily

    >> “Being “friendly” with a guy you like is the kiss of death.”

    I actually think that “friendly” is a good place to start. IMO talking is still > than not talking. Just pretend that the dude is one of your guy friends and start up a casual conversation. If the guy’s not interested then you still get to maintain a certain level of plausible deniability. But if he is, then it at least gives him SOMETHING to work with.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    My interpretation of the cartoon was that the guy knew exactly what was going on but didn’t like the girl, and his way of rejecting her was acting as if he thought she was talking to the statue. I was surprised when I read that the statue was really a guy in a clown suit. Hahahaha!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Emily

    Wtf made you think to Google that?????????????????!!!!! :0

    When I saw the post this morning, I decided to google “Ronald McDonald bench statue” to make sure that it was the clown in the comic. When I googled it, pics of girls pretending to give the statue a blowjob also popped up.

    The internet is a scary place sometimes.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Beta Guy

    I’m actually really sad the Marilyn Monroe statue was taken down. It was hilarious to take friends to. Also, it was funny just to watch awkward tourists if I was walking by. I’m curious to see what they put up though.

    However, if you’ve missed some of the light shows at the bean, those are something you definitely missed out on. Not the best in terms of the actual artistic value and skill, but cool to see the reflections and what they were trying to explore with them.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Anyways, time to go out and see if any women in my small corner of Chicago are able to send out any of these ‘I’m into you’ vibes my way. If not, I’ll be sending some their way instead.

  • Anacaona

    Yeah I though it was a statue of a clown till my husband pointed out the write up in the end. I also think that if the clown was interested he should at least look at her while speaking he was completely out of it or pretending to let him bait. I also resent calling the guy dumb, being clueless about the opposite gender is not being dumb.

    @Liza
    I could give you line you actually have a lot of things you could use to see if the guy is just not available or shy. I sent the first message to my hubby and I’m very proud that I got out of my comfort zone and end up winning the first prize, I get the feeling that is now how you are going to see it.If you are the type that will forever remember that he didn’t approached first and that will be a problem is better to let go and start crushing on someone else till you find one that approaches. There is no way around it, YMMV.

  • Iggles

    @Sassy6519

    The internet is a scary place sometimes.

    Agreed! Sad and depressing at times as well…

    @Emily:

    I actually think that “friendly” is a good place to start. IMO talking is still > than not talking. Just pretend that the dude is one of your guy friends and start up a casual conversation. If the guy’s not interested then you still get to maintain a certain level of plausible deniability. But if he is, then it at least gives him SOMETHING to work with.

    Yes, it’s better to take positive action than no action at all. BUT I have friends who do just that — act friendly with their crush while being too scared to give out any IOIs!

    They’re hoping that spending time with the dude in itself will be enough to signal interest, since they’re paranoid about being too “obvious” about their feelings. Doing so feels too scary because then they risk rejection.

    The irony is, this is a sure-fire way to make new friend — not a new boyfriend. Without any clear indicators of interest (i.e., perhaps a mix of playful banter, light touches, and extended eye contact) the guy concludes she has no romantic interest in him. He won’t act on any attraction he feels for her since he thinks she just wants to be friends.

    I’ve heard many men say that they had no idea their female friends had feelings for them. Often they learn after they starting dating someone. My boyfriend experience this when we first started dating. He was puzzled and asked why women aren’t more straightforward when they’re into guy.

  • http://cupidselves.com Christina

    Funny- I took it as the guy not being interested and pretending that he thought the clown was the object of affection. It gave me a bit of a pang- memories of rejections past. I’m an INTJ- very shy by nature, but I’ve been approaching (and getting rejected by) guys since I was sixteen.

    But, I came of age in the 80’s and 90’s and my brand of feminism holds that equality means shouldering the responsibilities as well as the rights. My friends and I honestly thought approaching guys was the fair and right thing to do. I didn’t always get rejected, and I got a lot better at it with practice.

    What I did notice was that, if a guy was interested, it didn’t take a whole lot of effort on my part. I’m so shy that I’m horrible at the eye contact thing, so I figured there’d have to be some other way for me to show interest. For some strange reason, asking him out for a cup of coffee is much, much easier than holding eye contact for at least 5 seconds (an eternity!!)

    True to form, I met my husband because I contacted him first on an online dating site. I really don’t get women’s hesitation to do this. He didn’t live in my area; there was no other way he could have known that I existed. Once I made the first move, he really took the lead. And for the record, most of the guys I asked out were probably on the more dominant side, and they had the confidence to not worry about their masculinity being called into question.

    As to Liz’s situation: I don’t see what she has to lose by simply starting a conversation with the guy. If he’s taken, it will give him an opportunity to say so. And once a casual conversation has started, it should be easy for either one of them to ask about getting together without it being a huge deal.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Christina

      Welcome, and thanks for sharing your own history – that was inspiring! I hear such mixed things about online dating – I have not cracked the code enough to give advice about it. There are lots of great testimonials like yours, but I’ve also known young women go into it, only to spend many hours, go on a bunch of first dates and having nothing to show for it after six months. It can be a weird mix of positive feedback and poor results.

  • Dogsquat

    Liza Divisible By Three Said:

    “Eye fucking”

    ____________________________

    For all he knows, you’ve got tardive dyskinesia and two glass eyes.

    Reach down, grab a hold of your fucking ovaries, and do this:

    Follow him to the drinking fountain. When he’s done slurping his water, say,”Hi. What are you working on tonight?”

    I guarantee you’ve got to open the door a little wider at the gym. Guys who actually have female friends have heard over and over and over and OVAHR again how much women hate to be bothered at the gym.

    Hell, I’m pathological when it comes to hitting on women – and it’s easier for me to flirt at a funeral than at 24 Hour Fitness.

    Passer By and Jon brought this up, too, you it’s not just goofy ol’ Dogsquat working his piehole again.

  • Dogsquat

    Pip said:

    “Doing number 2″
    _________________________________

    Only works in Germany.

  • Dogsquat

    Ladies, consider taking an inventory of your IOIs. Seriously – write down the stuff you do when confronted with a man you wish would hit on you.

    Got it? Good.

    Here’s two times that got me thinking about women I was attracted to, but hadn’t been considering:

    One girl I worked with HUGGED (contact from her chest to knee, with noticeable pelvic goodness) me goodbye, looked into my eyes, looked down, looked back up into my eyes, bit her lip, then let go (took about 4 seconds). As she was walking away, she looked back over her shoulder, caught me checking out her ass, and smiled.

    One other woman I worked with found about three excuses in a row to lean over my lap to grab stuff, or show me something about a computer program I was new to. Her boob would drag across my leg each time. She’d also place her boob directly on my upper arm. There was constant eye contact. She also gave me HUGS goodbye, and would linger around at the end of our shift so we could walk out of the hospital together.

    Any of you doing all that crap? If so, you’ve done all you could except for ask him out directly. If you’re not in a bar-type setting, you may with to consider ramping it up a bit.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat

      Shameless hussies! JK. I remember your telling that full body contact hug story before. I know I’d never have had the ovaries to do either of those things, but I believe you that it was very effective. Just curious, were these women of a “sexually adventurous” disposition?

  • Wudang

    Gudenuf:

    There are PUA guides/articles about eye contact/flirting with the eyes. You can check out David Shades eye contact experiment for example.

  • Emily

    >> “I guarantee you’ve got to open the door a little wider at the gym. Guys who actually have female friends have heard over and over and over and OVAHR again how much women hate to be bothered at the gym.”

    +1 And unless the woman is giving out mad IOIs, this is generally true.

  • Vox

    Here’s the thing – if a guy is good at picking up subtle cues it generally means one thing: He’s had a lot of practice, i.e. he is “fluent” in the language. Massive social proof. The odds of his wanting a relationship are probably low, depending on age.

    Bingo.

    I haven’t heard of many approaches that direct from women

    Here are a few successful real life example of female approaches:

    1. In public, walks up with dreamy eyes and plants kiss right on the mouth. Then introduces herself.
    2. Explains that she is working on getting her driver’s license, but doesn’t know how to drive stick. Then says, “Your car is stick, right? Want to teach me?”
    3. Says “you guys have big arms, where do you work out?” Follows that up with expressing her own interest in getting back into the gym and probable need for personal trainer….
    4. Grabs tie and pulls until nose-to-nose, making eye contact throughout… but waits to get kissed.
    5. Writes down unrequested telephone number, slips it into lapel pocket, and pats chest.
    6. Writes down unrequested telephone number and name – very important – and leaves it on receipt.
    7. Throws arms around man’s waist in public at party and declares to all and sundry: “I am so completely his! He can do anything he wants to me tonight!”
    8. Asks for help finding car leaving party. Upon reaching car, opens back door….
    9. Asks in very shy, little girl voice “do you want to fuck me?”

    In fairness, it should be mentioned that number 7 was targeting an extraordinarily oblivious man who had been deaf and blind to a series of more conventional indicators of interest. Some spin on number 3 can be particularly effective, because it will usually result in a workout date if there is any interest at all on the man’s part, as well the potential for a lot of physical contact, and without really making the woman feel as if she’s making herself vulnerable.

    Obviously, the right approach depends upon the situation and the woman’s goals. But they can all be easily modified… for example, substitute Bible translation for big arms and Bible Study for workout and it’s Christian Girl Game instead of Gym Bunny Game. The key, I think, is for a woman to recognize who is within her SMV range. It may also help to note that on average, men are much gentler about rejecting approaches than women, simply because they know what it feels like.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Vox

      I think 5 and 6 are the easiest for most women – no reason why any woman couldn’t do that, since the rejection would never be overt.

      4 gave me tingles. I would think a guy would find that incredibly hot – and eye contact during speed dating has been shown to make a huge difference in attraction levels.

      1,7,8 and 9 have a strong “DTF” vibe – I do think women need to be really aware of whether they’re sending out IOIs for short-term vs. long-term mating.

  • VD

    4 gave me tingles. I would think a guy would find that incredibly hot – and eye contact during speed dating has been shown to make a huge difference in attraction levels.

    One more thing. If she also says “hi” or something like that, it keeps the close proximity from being too uncomfortable and gives the guy an easy out. If he says “um, hi?”, he’s either not interested or too BETA to be tolerated. Let go, step back, no harm no foul. And if he goes for it, well, then the interest is confirmed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      If he says “um, hi?”, he’s either not interested or too BETA to be tolerated. Let go, step back, no harm no foul. And if he goes for it, well, then the interest is confirmed.

      It’s really low risk for the woman, because no guy is going to say, “Ew, get away from me.” At the very least, he’ll be flattered. Unless the woman is a beast, but even then the guy would probably say a friendly hi while pulling away.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Metaphor alert:
    Power companies have a tool they call the “hot stick”. It’s usually hickory and is kiln-dried. The objective is to have it conduct no electricity at all, and the implement is placed on the end of it, while the lineman is protected from electrocution. From time to time, the company throws a bazillion volts into one end and if more than a tiny trickle comes out the other, they put it in an oven to dry.
    Picture a hot stick bedded in a chunk of concrete, sitting on hot, dry sand.
    Throw a charged wire over it. The wire–communication–is complete. The electrical charge–the message–does not flow because the intended recipient is not capable of receiving it.
    Then picture a steel rod bedded in the water table. Wire thrown, the message/charge flows because the recipient is capable of receiving it.
    Difference is, as one commenter said, some guys do not think a woman would be interested in his own sweet self. Some actually think that and feel sorry for themselves, which would follow. For others, the concept is so foreign that they don”t think about it one way or another. The issue simply does not arise.
    Having watched this sort of thing back in the day, I would say there is little to no correlation between the ability to receive the message and any obvious value to a woman.
    Short of grabbing the shirt front and kicking him in the shin, and, when he eventually looks down, puzzled, saying, “Pay attention to ME!”, it’s hard to say what might be done.
    I also say this as one who, in retrospect, was the object of some sledge-hammer IOIs, which I missed altogether. Figured it out twenty years later.
    ’cause I was the hot stick stuck in concrete.

  • Anacaona

    3. Says “you guys have big arms, where do you work out?” Follows that up with expressing her own interest in getting back into the gym and probable need for personal trainer….

    This is the basic plot of many porn movies so it surely should work! :D

  • INTJ

    1,7,8 and 9 have a strong “DTF” vibe – I do think women need to be really aware of whether they’re sending out IOIs for short-term vs. long-term mating.

    I don’t think 1 has a “DTF” vibe. It’s a little on the aggressive side, but it’s pretty cute. :)

  • INTJ

    But we’ve definitely figured out two really good ways to let a guy know you like him. You can ask a friend to let him know, or you can slip in his number. Either way, there’s no risk of direct rejection. The onus is now on him to ask you out.

  • Moo Peep Queso

    Liza, there is nothing “masculine” about approaching a man you are attracted to. And there is nothing “feminine” about him not being the one to approach. JUST DO IT!

  • Dogsquat

    Susan said:

    “I know I’d never have had the ovaries to do either of those things, but I believe you that it was very effective. Just curious, were these women of a “sexually adventurous” disposition?”
    __________________________
    It was 50/50.

    It sounds worse when you read about it – I doubt you’d notice what was going on if you were 10 feet away.

  • Michael of Charlotte

    I have an opener I use in a situation like that that I stole from the move, “The Town.” “We seem to be having a staring contest.” Usually, I get a smile and she’ll say something. If she doesn’t say anything I introduce myself and go from there.

    Oh, and I’ll add my voice to the chorus of guys who don’t do approaches as the gym for the same reason you’ve already seen. I’m working on overcoming that but I’m not there yet.

  • Esau

    In an uncharacteristic departure — who knows, maybe it’ll take, but don’t get your hopes up — I can add something both on the OP topic and potentially constructive.

    When trying to understand why/when a man will or won’t take up an opportunity that a woman presents, it’s important to look beyond the question of “does he notice” and think about how me might value — or not value — the particular experience he perceives as being on offer. Any woman hoping for more positive responses would do well to ask herself, “What experience for him, exactly, am I offering here?” (This is closely related to the oft-discussed question on HUS, where anyone should be aware of the answer to the question, “What am I bringing to the table here?”)

    Following a typical man’s experience, I think a lot of them might look at some cute girl beckoning from across the room and react by thinking, “Here we go again; yet another chance to run the inevitable gantlet of shit tests, fitness tests, assorted traps, hurdles, and the general ‘one-strike-and-you’re-history’ sword hanging over your head. Yeah, sign me right up. Sorry, it wasn’t worth the effort the last twenty times, and this one isn’t looking any better.”

    Fair or not, justified or not, I believe that this well describes the mind-reaction of a goodly number of men in, say, their early 20’s, who’ve had a goodly amount of experience but without so much success — and this reaction is even more likely if the woman is above-average attractive (yes, pretty girls do have it harder). So my advice is: for the woman who’s not like this, who isn’t super picky or super judgmental, and who isn’t going to insist that thread ten perfect needles in a row, you have to find some way to show that you’re not like all the rest. Fair or not, the onus is on you; but fortunately the problem is straightforward once you visualize it.

    Unlike the large majority of commenters I don’t usually discuss my direct personal experiences; but here I can offer a tidbit, FWIW, in the story of an approach that worked on me. At a student mixer party I was approached by a girl who looked slightly familiar, and I couldn’t quite place her until she opened with “Hi. I was there when you spoke up at [that meeting], and I thought what you said was really intelligent.” (or words to that effect) She may or may not have been telling the truth (!), but I immediately felt very comfortable since I’d been pre-approved for my speech & personality, to some degree, and so didn’t necessarily have to face a lot of judgement/testing to come. But at the same time the opening didn’t make her seem at all desperate or gushing or even particularly forward, since she presented herself as a peer, having the standing to make a judgment and express an opinion. Plus, it gave us something to talk about right away, while preserving plausible deniability on any immediate amorous intentions. On the whole it was a well-executed maneuver on her part, with an instructive lesson: the woman who wants a positive response is well-advised to find a way to show pre-approval of some aspect of a man’s intellect, personality and speech habits, as this will make the possible future of the encounter more promising and less potentially tiresome.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      the woman who wants a positive response is well-advised to find a way to show pre-approval of some aspect of a man’s intellect, personality and speech habits, as this will make the possible future of the encounter more promising and less potentially tiresome.

      Agreed, that likely has a better success rate and there’s no risk of giving the wrong impression (of promiscuity). Approaching is easier if it’s not a strictly cold, from across the room, first sighting.

  • Ian

    @ summer

    I’ve never directly approached a guy before (and don’t see myself ever doing so), but if I have the stomach for it at the moment I’ll gravitate toward their general vicinity, make small talk with them, ect. This is *extremely* difficult for me as an INFP though, not so much as a woman–at least, that’s what I tell myself, lol.

    FWIW, the most direct and successful approaches I’ve received have almost all been from INFP’s. Love letters, tackles from behind, cover-eyes kisses, rubbings, gropings, phone numbers unrequested. Not necessarily street-Game, but not hiding away either.

    @General

    I’m not sure how universal this is, but there’s usually a fair amount of fuzzy dating math in my head at any point during the year. A horse race of potential leads, attractions that are progressing, being pursued, going sour. One, Epecially when things are moving, I’m not inclined to back to square one with a new lead, especially a flimsy one. Two, even If a woman taking initiative doesn’t immediately jump to the head of all that fuzziness, she usually joins the race. She’s a sure option to call on a Friday, some time, maybe.

    I also don’t believe that a woman approaching, revealing interest is a dominant move. If anything, she’s showing her cards as the most interested party, giving the man the upper hand. If he can’t keep it from that point, he’d have never kept it. A woman giving a love-letter out of left field isn’t AWOGing a guy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ian

      One, Epecially when things are moving, I’m not inclined to back to square one with a new lead, especially a flimsy one.

      Which confirms what guys always say about rejection – you have no idea what’s going on in the other person’s life. An approach that doesn’t go well doesn’t mean you’re perceived as unattractive or unworthy (though of course it might). It’s just much easier to deal with the risk when you know there are factors that you can’t control, all having to do with the other person’s experience, history, circumstances, etc.

      Two, even If a woman taking initiative doesn’t immediately jump to the head of all that fuzziness, she usually joins the race.

      This would apply to someone you know, but there the risk is higher to the one initiating – she will be more likely to interpret the lack of immediate interest as a firm No.

  • .this is Jen

    this reminds me of how I met my husband. my college roomie was dating his roomie. I was immediately smitten at first site. I would find all kinds of reasons to go over to their dorm room. “going to the post office, anybody need stamps?” I would have my roomie leave an earring, so I had to go to back and get it for her, etc.. My future hubby was sure I was interested in the 3rd roomie. It was so frustrating. It took 3 weeks of scheming before he finally got the hint and called to stutteringly ask me out.

  • rudiger

    Lordy, I have never, that I can remember, been approached by a woman in a direct way. Watched a player friend of mine (who women say is hot), get approached and asked to dance at a club. Totally agree with Susan and Jacko about pre 60s and post 60s. We are in the, girls can have it all, stage of history, no?

    Where do you approach women? I could be breaking a PUA rule by asking women for advice here, but…

    I have no trouble approaching. I’ll even approach beautiful girls 10+ years younger. But I rarely have success. So why bother? Although I’m usually never direct. But I do ask for numbers.

    I hear that social circles, not cold approaching, is the best. I’m new in town so this is tougher.

  • Underdog

    Not sure if this article’s been posted or not, but I found it pretty interesting:

    http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/columnist/vergano/story/2012-05-12/why-women-fall-for-bad-boys/54919824/1

  • JP

    I’ve had women approach me, but it never turned out well. It generally hasn’t resulted in the best relationships. Although the only time this happened directly was in high school. In college, I was approached once, but that was because I was selected as a good pick for one of her friends. “You’re too cute to not be dating somebody. I have a friend you need to date.”

    Oddly enough, it’s only Mormons and Catholics who approach me first.

    First, I would need to figure out who you were before I considered dating you. I might find you physically attractive, but I need to have a general sense of your psychological makeup, so to speak.

    I liked dating people *after* I have some idea of who they are.

  • lurker

    @154 Great article Underdog.

  • Underdog

    @lurker Thanks. I wonder how many people swallowed the red pill after reading that article.

  • lurker

    A few red pills here a few there. I was reading over on feministmormonhousewives.org about the fat single Mormon women bemoaning the shallowness of men for not asking them out and wanted to post something but didn’t know where to start. They trotted out the old “these men are all a bunch of 2’s thinking they can get 10’s” and thinking that all these fat women were 10’s. I sympathize with the lack of attention that some women experience but I was blown away by how they thought all men have it so easy.

  • lurker

    And they just didn’t realize how much a lot of the less charismatic and less successful guys are invisible to most women. Hypergamy knows no religious boundaries.

  • Cooper

    Re: Why Women Fall For Bad Boys

    Correct me if I’m wrong: scientists just proved that women are attracted to misogynists?
    That is the definition of a ‘cad,’ right? A man who acts dishonorably, especially towards women.

  • Anacaona

    Correct me if I’m wrong: scientists just proved that women are attracted to misogynists?
    That is the definition of a ‘cad,’ right? A man who acts dishonorably, especially towards women.

    I think the article just proof that atractivism is real a woman that finds a man attractive will project in him all sorts of good qualities in order to mate with him if possible is a bit like the net nature of men sexual strategy except that only applies to attractive (aka confident) men not the majority of them, YMMV.

  • Underdog

    “feministmormonhousewives.org”

    Hahahahaha that is the greatest website name ever!

  • Emma

    Hahaha… i liked it a lot .. it was nice …

    Thanks for sharing ..

  • Richard Aubrey

    Underdog.
    That hi/low cycle and its effects on perception has been researched for some time, but not with the projection-to-cads of good qualities, afaik.
    Good article. Nor, afaik, has an article on the subject ended with reference to cultural factors and early/late puberty.
    Good catch.
    Would our view of ev-psych as an explanation change if we considered that individuals are inconvenient but necessary vessels by which genes reproduce themselves?

  • Underdog

    “That hi/low cycle and its effects on perception has been researched for some time, but not with the projection-to-cads of good qualities, afaik.”

    lol yeah

    “For themselves, they thought the bad boy would reform and become a good dad just like the first experiment, when they were ovulating. “But not for other women, they could see right through him then,” Durante says.”

    The hamster is amazing indeed.

  • Richard Aubrey

    As Susan has said, more or less, the red pill is particularly repulsive to people who would like to believe the best of others.
    I suppose guys need game in LTR in order to keep the cads at bay. Including marriage.

  • Cooper

    @Anacaona

    I thought the last example they used twins?

    I thought they were making it clear that it was the cad-behavior over the “good dad.”

  • Ted D

    Ugh. That article is a bit depressing.

    So women at the peak of ovulation subconsciously delude themselves about flipping the cad to a dad? I’d like to see how this plays out for older women, closer to menopause and the end of fertility.

    And this is why I feel like women need to know MORE about this stuff. Every women should be tracking her ovulation if it can and appears to influence behavior so much.

    If I had a monthly cycle that made me less able to filter out “bad” women, you can be damned sure I wouldn’t be anywhere around females on those days! Wasn’t it Sassy that said sometimes she feels like she should lock herself up on those days? Might not be a bad idea across the board. LOL

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Passer_By: How about: “Hey, we’ve been eye fucking for a while now. Maybe it’s high time we start progressing toward the real thing.” That oughta get his attention.
    —-
    Ha! I am sure that saying this would definitely get his attention but that is not the kind of attention I am seeking at least not right away.

    Passer By: You need to understand that men, especially young men, have been bombarded with the feminist message that their advances in places like gyms are unwanted and borderline harrassment. Women complain constantly about getting hit on in gyms and other places where they just want to be able to do what they came there to do. Many men take that to heart to one degree or another. Most who don’t are players, so you are sort of self selecting for players.
    —–
    For the most part, I do not like guys hitting on me at the gym and I have never dated anyone there before.

    I am not self selecting for players. A guy does not have to be a player because he is expressing interest in a woman he finds attractive in a public setting and wants to get to know her. I think as long as he is being respectful and subtle, when doing so–it’s fine. It is the ones who are rude and obnoxious–those guys really bother me.
    —-
    GudEnuf: If it’s too scary for a woman to ask a man out directly, she can ask a friend to help. Just ask your friend to talk to the male and say something like

    “You know, Sally didn’t want me to blab about this, but she thinks you’re super hot. You should ask her out!”
    ——-
    Yes, this is less scary and I good way (not the best, though, he will want to hear it from me) to let him know you are interested without totally putting yourself out there. If he were interested, this would probably prompt him to approach you.

    Anacaona: …If you are the type that will forever remember that he didn’t approached first and that will be a problem is better to let go and start crushing on someone else till you find one that approaches. There is no way around it, YMMV.
    ——–
    I guess I just prefer that the guy approaches me. But more and more, I see I will have to be more forward.

    Susan: Let’s come up with some good approach lines for Liza. My first suggestion is:

    Your pheromones drew me over here.
    —–
    You know, I never got the whole thing about pheromones and being attracted to someone based on their scent.

  • Escoffier

    Liz, just slyly pay attention to what exercises he does that you also do, or could do if you wanted. Then go and say, “Excuse me, but I notice that you seem really good at X, I really want to learn it but I am having troubl and I think my form is not right, could you show me how to do it correctly?”

    1) You’ve opened, so he now has a chance to engage without initial risk.

    2) Your opening is not too direct so if he wants to make it into something more, he has to risk something. This will screen out the hopeless betas whom you say you don’t want. He still has to pursue.

    3) Guys like to be know-it-alls. They like to talk about things they understand. Also, they like to help clueless women.

    This should work. If it does not, that means either that he is not interested in you or that he is so beta he requires more prompting. If the latter, I would urge you to move on because even if you could land him by being more obvious (and maybe you could), if he is really that beta he will never make you happy and you will just end up breaking his heart.

  • Richard Aubrey

    3) Guys like to be know-it-alls. They like to talk about things they understand. Also, they like to help clueless women.

    Not azzactly. There are certain levels of cluelessness which are embarrassing to watch. “Hey, aren’t we all supposed to be at least semi-educated H. Saps here?”
    I don’t mind helping women reach something in the supply room, for example. I think supply room stepstools ought to be outlawed. But that’s relative shortness, not cluelessness.
    Faking a need to help has to be carefully considered.

  • Born27

    Funny! haha! I like the way it was illustrated.. girls should need not to do that thing, it’s obvious! The guy prefer to talk to Ronald McDonald than with her!

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Herb: Okay, so you’re having a hard time finding your level of dominance.

    How willing are you to try meeting people (not a date or anything, just people) out of your comfort zone? And no, I’m not hitting on you (not my type and I’m in Atlanta).
    —–
    I did not think you were hitting on me. It is just that whenever these discussions come up in the blogosphere the woman’s age get used against her somehow.

    christina: As to Liz’s situation: I don’t see what she has to lose by simply starting a conversation with the guy. If he’s taken, it will give him an opportunity to say so. And once a casual conversation has started, it should be easy for either one of them to ask about getting together without it being a huge deal.
    —-
    Yeah, striking up a casual conversation and asking him questions about himself (men love talking about themselves, they really do).

    Follow him to the drinking fountain. When he’s done slurping his water, say,”Hi. What are you working on tonight?”
    ——-
    I like this as well. It is better than, “what do you do for a living ?”–yawn!

    So reach down and grab hold of my fucking ovaries, huh?

    Moo Peep Queso: Liza, there is nothing “masculine” about approaching a man you are attracted to. And there is nothing “feminine” about him not being the one to approach. JUST DO IT!
    —-
    That is one of my favorite phrases. It is very powerful.

    summer: I’ve never directly approached a guy before (and don’t see myself ever doing so), but if I have the stomach for it at the moment I’ll gravitate toward their general vicinity, make small talk with them, ect. This is *extremely* difficult for me as an INFP though, not so much as a woman–at least, that’s what I tell myself, lol.
    —–
    If I get up the nerves to approach this guy it will be a first. As an INTJ, I would rather have root canal but attempting it might not be that bad. It is best not to think about the outcome and just be in the moment.

  • J

    @Ana

    I read the article the same way you did.

    @Ted

    So women at the peak of ovulation subconsciously delude themselves about flipping the cad to a dad? I’d like to see how this plays out for older women, closer to menopause and the end of fertility.

    That’s interesting. While I was never a cad chaser, I have always appreciated a good-looking guy, and I am fortunate in that my husband is both a terrific guy and pretty handsome. My sons are great-looking kids, which I think confers an evolutionary advantage. I think that looks are an indicator of overall fitness, and that both men and women are drawn to good-looking members of the opposite sex for that reason. I am however now menopausal, and interestingly what I find attractive has broadened considerably. I find myself less concerned with looks than I used to be. I imagine that, if I were widowed and in the market for a second husband, I would be much more accepting of a less handsome man if he were good to me. And I think that’s because on an unconscious level I’m no longer worried about selecting good genes. I now have the luxury now of looking soley at personal compatibility.

  • Herb

    @Liza207

    Herb: Okay, so you’re having a hard time finding your level of dominance.

    How willing are you to try meeting people (not a date or anything, just people) out of your comfort zone? And no, I’m not hitting on you (not my type and I’m in Atlanta).
    —–
    I did not think you were hitting on me. It is just that whenever these discussions come up in the blogosphere the woman’s age get used against her somehow.

    Not at all, but my advice would be different based on age. I have one suggestion I wouldn’t give to a woman under 25 and probably not under 30 because unless I knew her very well because it wouldn’t be appropriate to her level of maturity.

    So, in this case your age could be a plus (or a minus, depending on how you look at it).

    You still didn’t answer my question, though, actually two…

    1. Are you sure you need a high level of dominance?
    2. How willing outside your comfort zone are you willing to try?

  • Jonny

    “For the most part, I do not like guys hitting on me at the gym and I have never dated anyone there before.

    I am not self selecting for players. A guy does not have to be a player because he is expressing interest in a woman he finds attractive in a public setting and wants to get to know her. I think as long as he is being respectful and subtle, when doing so–it’s fine. It is the ones who are rude and obnoxious–those guys really bother me.”

    This response is contradictory. No wonder it is better for men to not bother with asking women out in most situations.

    If most men should not ask women out in gyms and you have never dated one from a gym, it is 100% guaranteed that in the very rare chance that when he asked you out, he will be rejected. He would have to overcome your routine dislike of guys hitting on you and your inexperience with dating guys from the gym.

    You also mention that guys who do ask you out are rude and obnoxious. I’m sure it is nice to be asked out by guys who are ATTRACTIVE and RESPECTFUL and SUBTLE. I’m sure he is Tom Brady who doesn’t have to do a thing to get your attention. Some guys who behave badly just don’t know how to do it. On the other hand, maybe they know so it is part of their pick-up game. The thing is you perceived them as rude and obnoxious because they are unattractive. They are not Tom Brady.

    I guess the thing I’m trying to say is get used to not being asked. The worse thing that can happen to you is “you” ask him out and he rejects you.

  • INTJ

    @Liza207

    “You know, Sally didn’t want me to blab about this, but she thinks you’re super hot. You should ask her out!”
    ——-
    Yes, this is less scary and I good way (not the best, though, he will want to hear it from me) to let him know you are interested without totally putting yourself out there. If he were interested, this would probably prompt him to approach you.

    Projection. I at least would actually prefer to hear from someone other than the girl, so that if I don’t like her I don’t have to reject her directly.

  • INTJ

    @John

    I solved the curse of the male sex drive by visiting my doctor and asking to be given the chemical castration shot every month. He agreed after much persuasion. Now, even though I am forced to spend the day surrounded by young, very attractive women; I cannot be used for free male attention nor will I be incentivated by my sex drive to have sex with them, probably catch a std, and have my life ruined by any other means(If I was to play the role of the bad boy).

    I’d never considered that. It’s actually a good option to consider if all else fails.

  • Ted D

    J – “And I think that’s because on an unconscious level I’m no longer worried about selecting good genes. I now have the luxury now of looking soley at personal compatibility.”

    Well this can be good and bad. On the bad side, it seems that the chances of marrying someone when you are young based more on genes than compatibility are higher than when you are older, which may be part of why divorce is so high these days. (marry the better genes when young, have kids, realize he isn’t someone you really want to spend your life with personality wise, eject…) and, to an extent, it is a bit of a blow to the more good looking guys out there. After all, they may only be getting so much “play” because they look like they have good genes, but as a person they may suck royally. Of course, if a man’s goal is to get lots of sex from lots of women, this is an ideal setup.

    On the good side, if you can make it through the younger years with your marriage intact and reasonably healthy, there is perhaps less chance that a wife will stray as long as she continues to be happy with her husband due to any “hypergamy” type issues.

    In my own experience I can see this in action. I’ve known since my son was born that I didn’t want any more children. When my ex and I split, I did indeed have a bit of a different outlook in terms of women I found attractive in that I didn’t care so much about age and fitness, and was really more interested in finding someone I was compatible with. (after the last few years of my marriage, compatibility is my primary “concern” right after “actively participates and enjoys sex with me”.) Don’t get me wrong, I still ended up with a woman I find highly attractive. But I certainly was NOT looking for a woman to bear my children. She only had to be decent to the children I already have, and thankfully that wasn’t so hard to find.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Are you sure you need a high level of dominance?

    Herb,

    No, not high levels. I just want a man that is decisive and can take charge when the situation calls for it. Very few women I know want to wear the pants in the relationship, we want to feminine at all time with our man. I want to able to know that if I hand over the reins (I have been making all the decisions in my life for a very long time, and at some point I do want to hand over the steering wheel) he will make the best decision for us both (most times). It would be very frustrating for me if I felt I could not rely on my spouse to make sound decisions. Or I have to keep reminding him of his role in the relationship (nagging is not my thing). I have seen relationships like this and they are almost akin to a mother/son relationship or the roles appear to be reversed. I say, no wonder women in those relationships quickly lose interest in having sex and become bored and want out.

    It is awful to have your femininity practically robbed from you by some feminized man. This is my nightmare.

  • Anacaona

    Would our view of ev-psych as an explanation change if we considered that individuals are inconvenient but necessary vessels by which genes reproduce themselves?

    I remember the X-Files episode about a deformed family that kinds of uses incest to continue their blood line (ewww) and Scully said something along the lines that maybe we are just puppets of our genes pushing to survive no matter what. It was a chilling though and I do think we are more than that (heart, body and soul) but I do wonder if this is distributed differently among individuals and the people that go crazy to go bang the worst individuals of our species, no matter the risks have a stronger impulse of passing the genes over personal content…just thinking out loud.

    If I had a monthly cycle that made me less able to filter out “bad” women, you can be damned sure I wouldn’t be anywhere around females on those days! Wasn’t it Sassy that said sometimes she feels like she should lock herself up on those days? Might not be a bad idea across the board. LOL

    Well many of this women are on the pill so they are not ovulating and I don’t think women know their biological clock so much remember when in doubt women pick what “feels” right they don’t have the impulse to chart every and make everything into formulas and numbers for them is just something that happens they won’t try to know how or why at least not the majority. I do find funny that we could consider ovulation like having a werewolf curse, we should like them better than vampires. I guess no ancient woman would consider their bodies natural functions a curse.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ted D

    If I had a monthly cycle that made me less able to filter out “bad” women, you can be damned sure I wouldn’t be anywhere around females on those days! Wasn’t it Sassy that said sometimes she feels like she should lock herself up on those days? Might not be a bad idea across the board. LOL

    Haha, yeah, that was me.

    I chart my cycle, and I know exactly what is happening on any given day. I know when I’m ovulating, so I act accordingly by putting myself on a tight leash of sorts.

    I may feel it more intensely than a good portion of women because I don’t take hormonal birth control.

  • Herb

    @Liza207

    I want to able to know that if I hand over the reins (I have been making all the decisions in my life for a very long time, and at some point I do want to hand over the steering wheel) he will make the best decision for us both (most times). It would be very frustrating for me if I felt I could not rely on my spouse to make sound decisions. Or I have to keep reminding him of his role in the relationship (nagging is not my thing).

    Okay, I bolded that for a reason. That to me defines a pretty high level of dominance: wanting him to be the sole decision maker in the relationship is a pretty high level of submission, especially in this day and age. Finding guys that want that will be hard. Finding them ready to do the work will be even harder.

    That said, I’d like to ask the ladies who openly want dominance. Is the part I bolded what you would call dominance or high dominance.

    @Ana

    It was a chilling though and I do think we are more than that (heart, body and soul) but I do wonder if this is distributed differently among individuals and the people that go crazy to go bang the worst individuals of our species, no matter the risks have a stronger impulse of passing the genes over personal content…just thinking out loud.

    I think some people are driven more by their genes than others. Social programming counter to genes and self-awareness both determine who is in what bucket.

    I think a lot of what the ‘sphere and HUS discusses is the byproduct of the former being severely restricted today in the West and the later being out of fashion.

    I think the later is normally pretty rare (although I think the West today does the best the West had done in years) which is why strong social controls evolved.

  • J

    @Ted

    On the bad side, it seems that the chances of marrying someone when you are young based more on genes than compatibility are higher than when you are older, which may be part of why divorce is so high these days.

    I’m sure that’s a factor. The person with the best genes isn’t necessarily the nicest. But here’s condrundrum. The absolute sweetest man I know is over 50, has a mild disability that is hereditary, childless, divorced and living with his mom. He has a crush on me, which is silly, but I like him enough to try to fix him up with women of his own SMP. He’d like someone “hotter” and young enough to bear children. There’s no woman under 35 that I could fix him up with because no one wants to take avhance on his bad genes. No one I know has that bad a case of baby rabies. It’s sad but true.

    (marry the better genes when young, have kids, realize he isn’t someone you really want to spend your life with personality wise, eject…) and, to an extent, it is a bit of a blow to the more good looking guys out there. After all, they may only be getting so much “play” because they look like they have good genes, but as a person they may suck royally.

    The downside of alpha!

    On the good side, if you can make it through the younger years with your marriage intact and reasonably healthy, there is perhaps less chance that a wife will stray as long as she continues to be happy with her husband due to any “hypergamy” type issues.

    Well, I think a real measure of character and compatibility for both men and women is if a marriage makes it after the kids are gone. It’s not just the “hypergamy.” I know a few men who are very happily divorced and grateful to be free of marriages that simply have run their course. DH and I are in the rare position of having maintained the friendship of a divorced couple. Usually one or another of the divorced spouses get “custody” of a complete married couple, but in this case I have my “girl” and he has his “boy.” That way, DH and I both get status updates on each member of the divorced couple. Both seem rather disgustingly happy.

    Don’t get me wrong, I still ended up with a woman I find highly attractive.

    Yeah, I don’t sexual atractiveness becomes completely unimportant. It’s just not AS important as it once was. I doubt I’d go after ogres if I were single, but I’d value warmth over looks.

  • Jonny

    Expecting high dominance with the same expectation of sound decisions is contradictory. Dominance is personality. The making of sound decisions relies on other personality traits that are less dominant like prudence (reason) and reliability.

    What women want really isn’t what they want. A guy who is naturally dominant and rich has all the leeway to make bad decisions. He can afford to make them right. A woman who craves dominance is looking for a cat.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    You people…

    1) On the joke: the “write up” at the end is a mix of “explaining the joke” and “comically missing the point”. The title tells you everything you need to know: The guy thinks so little of himself, he thought a girl was more interested in a statue. Another example of this would be the mouseover text of this Dr McNinja: http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/15p44/. The “we” obviously means the sentient motorbike Doc is riding, not the refrigerator. (look, it makes sense in context… I think)

    2)

    And generally smiles and eye contact in situations where there’s no call for it are generally invitations to approach. Even if you’re wrong, what’s the big deal? I’ve mistaken friendliness for interest before, approached, and been rejected. My life did not end.

    Depends on a lot of things. Wrong approach, ‘bam’ you’re fired for sexual harassment. And that’s just one example where a vindictive woman can ruin a man’s life. (need we bring up the elevator guy incident? at least he got lucky and was kept anonymous) See also: http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2010/10/15/creep-noh/
    http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2010/10/09/why-cant-he-just-make-a-move-noh/

    3)

    Let’s come up with some good approach lines for Liza. My first suggestion is:

    How about the most alluring words of all time? “Can you help me with something?”

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Vox,

    It may also help to note that on average, men are much gentler about rejecting approaches than women, simply because they know what it feels like.

    This is a key difference. It is very rare for a man to make a woman feel bad or a creep unless she’s really out-of-order (drunkenly groping, causing a scene, not taking no for an answer, etc). Men are generally flattered by women’s interest, as it’s a far rarer experience for almost all men than almost all women. Good thing for women to bear in mind.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    This response is contradictory. No wonder it is better for men to not bother with asking women out in most situations.

    Jonny,

    No it is not. I just did not explain. If a woman is showing you interest at the gym and you respond you are not hitting on her because your attention is welcomed. I have never dated a guy at my gym because I was never interested enough to do so. I have had quite a few guys approach me at my gym but they were often aggressive and obnoxious so I wasn’t interested.

    I have witnessed quite a few bold women who have used opener that Escoffier suggested I use and some others that were suggested here.

    Another thing, I often wonder if men have a clue as to when a woman is showing him interest these days.

  • Jonny

    “Another thing, I often wonder if men have a clue as to when a woman is showing him interest these days.”

    No, because usually women show their nice faces. They are afraid to tell them the truth of their disinterest because they are nice.

    If they are interested, they must overcome their nice face by giving them stronger signals.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    A woman who craves dominance is looking for a cat.

    This is actually sad commentary on men. It seems men have basically given up. I guess it will be me and my cat. I would rather go it alone right into spinsterdom than the alternative.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Richard Aubrey,

    Like the ‘hot stick’ analogy, & yes, I’ve had that feeling a bunch of times too when realizing what clear pathways I’d missed.

  • INTJ

    @Liza207

    Jonny,

    No it is not. I just did not explain. If a woman is showing you interest at the gym and you respond you are not hitting on her because your attention is welcomed. I have never dated a guy at my gym because I was never interested enough to do so. I have had quite a few guys approach me at my gym but they were often aggressive and obnoxious so I wasn’t interested.

    I have witnessed quite a few bold women who have used opener that Escoffier suggested I use and some others that were suggested here.

    Another thing, I often wonder if men have a clue as to when a woman is showing him interest these days.

    OMG. Making eye contact and smiling is NOT showing interest.

    How could we have a clue as to when a woman is showing interest when you women choose to be so ridiculously subtle about it?

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Lisa,

    There’s plenty of very masculine men that simply don’t want to be hit with a restraining order, or a false rape charge, or a sexual harassment claim, or be publicly humiliated in public when they crash and burn, & hear you tell all your friends what a creep they are. And also there are plenty of very masculine men that just don’t want to make you feel uncomfortable with their attentions when they’ve been told every day of their lives that a ‘real man’ doesn’t do that.

    I don’t think you’re correct in thinking their justifiable caution necessarily indicates a person’s behaviour inside of a relationship, especially if you make it clear early on how you like it.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    I used to be spectacle about socialization and how it affected gender roles. But is has become quite clear to me that it is very affective. It appears that many men have lost touch with their natural male instincts. It has been socialized out of you, apparently (I think Susan should do a post on this). Men are supposed to able to instinctually pick on subtle cues from women when we are exhibiting romantic interest. Women are still able to do this when it comes to men.

    Okay then, tell me, what men are looking for from a woman to show them that she is interested?

  • Marc

    @187 I agree. I’m always nice to women who approach. This is what I like about texting and Face, it’s easy to just fade out. It’s also polite, in my opinion. I prefer a woman do that to me also. If she doesn’t respond to a text or email, that’s it, over. I don’t really need an explanation. I understand there’s a million reasons why someone fades out.
    .
    Face to face rejection on the other hand, not into it! I do take it personally as much I shouldn’t. My success rate in regard to engaging women is very high. I attribute that to the fact that I don’t take rejection well, and I typically only engage women who have shown some kind of interest. My skills for reading this have been fine tuned. I did trip up at a high end lounge a couple months ago, and it scarred my brain! An attractive woman was with two other women and she was flirting with me across the room. We closed the place and as the other two women went to the bathroom, the flirty one walked to the entrance and waited. I was on my way out, walked up to her and said whatever, something like ‘hi’. She took a deep breath, and stared over my shoulder as if I werent there. It was the creepiest rejection I ever encountered. Still scarred by it. For her, and me. But I must say, it worked. I walked away within 3 seconds. I don’t recommend it to you ladies if you’re not into the creepy factor. But, if you want to deflect a guy immediately, it works.
    .
    About the gym girl situation. Tough one. I say don’t escalate it any further. I have the eye fucking thing going on with a number of women at my gym and they must think I’m gay by now. I engage them in small talk, nothing more. I find them attractive, but I see them everyday. If I don’t feel they are marriage material, I don’t want to start something that I think will end abruptly, and have to see them daily. I see people who started dating from the gym, then broke up. Now they go to the gym at different times, whereas they used to always go at the same time. Also, every gym has ‘that girl’. The aggressive, guy stalker type. You don’t want to come across as that girl. I can think of one that I avoid like the plague. He probably doesn’t want to escalate things with you. As any gym rat knows, there are LOTS of opportunities to engage people in conversation. You inevitably run into someone at the fountain, check-in, parking lot, you grab for the same dumbell, waiting for the same machine, they drop their towel, etc. I say wait for a machine he’s using so you can work in, nice smile, and small talk, nothing more. He’ll bite if interested.
    .
    I don’t really like women to approach me in general, but I do like a not so sublte invitation to approach her. A little off subject, but my friends and I have a thing we call ‘kid face’. Whenever a really attractive girl is aggressive, we assume she has children. Saturday, I had this Meg Ryan movie moment at the mall. I was walking behind this woman and she quickly turned around to walk in the opposite direction as if she suddenly remembered something. We literally smacked into one another, smiled, took two steps, both looked back, and told her ‘ok, come here’. (People love to be told what to do. My friends love my ole ‘two finger, come hither”. I don’t think one woman has ever rejected the two finger, even if it was to walk over and say ‘fuck off’). Anyway, she walked over and we talked for a minute. I was thinking she was way too good looking to be so friendly. I asked if she has kids, and she has one. I told her I thought she was very pretty, and good luck. Guys, if you’re not interested in dating single moms, ask them right away if they have kids. I do it within minutes, and the women seem to really respect the directness, and the fact that there is no time wasting. Let’s face it, I didn’t want to talk to her to be friends.
    .
    A little off topic, my mind was wandering.

  • INTJ

    @Liza207

    I used to be spectacle about socialization and how it affected gender roles. But is has become quite clear to me that it is very affective. It appears that many men have lost touch with their natural male instincts. It has been socialized out of you, apparently (I think Susan should do a post on this). Men are supposed to able to instinctually pick on subtle cues from women when we are exhibiting romantic interest. Women are still able to do this when it comes to men.

    No we aren’t. It’s pretty universal across cultures that men are much worse than women at reading nonverbal signals. It’s also the case at least in the West that women refuse to give out any verbal signals, and try to make their nonverbal signals as subtle and hard to read as possible.

    Okay then, tell me, what men are looking for from a woman to show them that she is interested?

    Trying to open a conversation with the guy, entering his personal space (this is big, as it distinguishes between friendly and romantic interest), touching (non-sexual, like tap on the arm or something), compliments, attempts to play up her attractiveness (playing with her hair, adjusting her top, etc.), casually mentioning that she’s single, and if all else fails giving him her phone number.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    I meant: I used to be SKEPTICAL about socialization and how it affected gender roles.

  • Escoffier

    Liza, two thoughts:

    1) The cutlure has more or less burnt subtlety at the stake. You seem to have this idea that 1950s courtship rituals ought to work among 2012 men and women. I rather like reading about old fashioned courtship rituals myself but the fact is the only work when you have old fashioned people. We don’t any more so it ‘s rather self-defeating for you to wish that men would read your cues and woo you like it’s 1955.

    2) I think even then you underestimate the % of men who are just naturally bold or perceptive like that. Go back and read some old books or see some old movies. You will see how, even pre-Sexual Revolution, women often had to use subterfuge to get men to make a move. Meaning, women were the ones often making the first move covertly, in order to entice the man to make the first overt move (which was really the second move). That little subterfuge served a number of purposes, not least it let the man feel brave even as the woman had already removed some of the risk, and it satisfied the woman’s desire for a man of action.

  • Escoffier

    darn it, meant OVERESTIMATE.

  • OffTheCuff

    I think liza is being reasonable here. I’ve seen low-dominance marriages where the guy just wants a Mom with benefits. It’s pretty weak, and not unreadonable to ask for better. The guy is “eyefucking” her, not just being polite and similng – but not making a move.

    IMO, he is enjoying the fun, but not moving because he doesn’t want to a) cheat on his GF or b) risk a blowout in a place that you both will be at in the future, or c) treating the gym as a professional/asexual zone, just like workplaces.

  • Cooper

    @Liza
    “Men are supposed to able to instinctually pick on subtle cues from women when we are exhibiting romantic interest.”

    I’m in agreement with Escoffier. I think you may be overestimating this.

    Take a look at This Is Jens’ comment about how clueless her husband was to her interest. She had to make silly excuses to position herself for him to notice her interest, which from the sounds of it took a while.

    I also think that is part of the cartoon above, the girl literally had a direct approach, and the guy STILL assumed she must be into the other guy. (similarly to This is Jens’ husband assuming she was interested in the 3rd roommate)

  • Jonny

    “I used to be spectacle about socialization and how it affected gender roles. But is has become quite clear to me that it is very affective. It appears that many men have lost touch with their natural male instincts. It has been socialized out of you, apparently (I think Susan should do a post on this). Men are supposed to able to instinctually pick on subtle cues from women when we are exhibiting romantic interest. Women are still able to do this when it comes to men.”

    BLAH BLAH BLAH, so what? Even if I agree with you, it doesn’t change the situation. You’re left where you are. You still need to attract a man and there’s nothing you’re doing to change the situation.

    Susan has already done plenty of posts about this. “Game” is how Beta men are applying the Alpha rules of attraction. This confirms that not only should more Beta men behave like Alpha men, it works, and women expect it.

    However, in your case, it might not be working as well as you expect. For the rare guy that does it, he is considered rude and obnoxious. Maybe he is doing it wrong, but you cannot say he hasn’t tried.

    “Okay then, tell me, what men are looking for from a woman to show them that she is interested?”

    Talk to him. Linger. Compliment him. Invite him for an after gym break at a nearby yogurt shop. Touch his forearm or bicep. Or send a wing woman.

  • Cooper

    “Talk to him. Linger. Compliment him. Invite him for an after gym break at a nearby yogurt shop. Touch his forearm or bicep. Or send a wing woman.”

    aka make the first move, however subtle is your decision.

  • Jonny

    @OffTheCuff “I think liza is being reasonable here. I’ve seen low-dominance marriages where the guy just wants a Mom with benefits. It’s pretty weak, and not unreadonable to ask for better. The guy is “eyefucking” her, not just being polite and similng – but not making a move.”

    Sometimes the guy is not dominate. What Liza wants is the opposite. It is not to say one is better than the other. It is what this person prefers. If Liza want to attract the dominate person, she needs to dial down her own dominance. This will be difficult since she sounds like the controlling one and has clear preferences. If I was more dominant, I would reject her.

    Dominance isn’t always about one being more in charge than the other. The other has to allow this person to be in charge. You can’t backseat drive. You have to let the other person drive from the beginning. She can’t undermine him at every opportunity and expect the relationship to last. The relationship pattern has to exist from the beginning.

    As for “eyefucking”, maybe he has something in his eye. There is plausible deniability in this. You can’t built a relationship from nothing. There is nothing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As for “eyefucking”, maybe he has something in his eye.

      Haha! That would be a great gag in a film.

      P.S. I wouldn’t know how to eyefuck. Is it just a long stare or is there some other action required? Like an intermittent squint? Or winking?

  • Richard Aubrey

    cooper.
    Back in the day, if a woman had touched my bicep, I’d have figured she was trying to see if I was a prospect to lift something for her, something real heavy.

    There are quality guys who really don’t know they’re quality to women. They may think they’re good at whatever they’re doing, reliable and competent in emergencies, good company, socialize well with women, keep a conversation going, generous, sometimes are seen taking care of Very Serious Business after the SHTF (sometimes right in front of said woman/women) including possibly fighting and figure they are the sum of their reasonably laudable parts. But interesting to women? Huh? If somebody had given me a granite slab with the Truth on it notarized by fourteen archangels, or however many there are, I’d have figured the archangels have rotten senses of humor.
    Me? You’re kidding.
    I missed stuff that makes what y
    So, since I can’t be the only one, the question arises, how do you tell that guy from other possibilities and what do you do about it?
    Jonny’s last graf includes stuff that makes what I missed seem like, as I said before, a sledgehammer.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Liza, you don’t have to listen to the guys here if you are skeptical, but they are right. Girls do better with direct, and research backs this.

    http://www.bakadesuyo.com/whats-the-best-way-for-a-woman-to-show-intere

    My go-to line has always been “what’s your screen name / email address?” :P

  • Escoffier

    Re: the direct approach. I would use with caution.

    1) Liza has owned up to being more than a bit beta-phobic. So if she just boldly asks the guy out and it works, that will only reinforce in her mind his betatude. He did not pursue her, she had to pursue him. She took all the risk, he took none. No dominance there. Gets the relationship, should one start, off on the wrong foot.

    2) If he’s not interested, he’s really on the spot. I agree with those guys who said we don’t want to be in that position. Strong chance he will agree to the coffee date or whatever just because he thinks it would be mean to say no, and it’s only coffee, right? Then before he knows it he’s knee deep in the ditch with no plan for getting out. As much as getting turned down outright would hurt Liza’s feelings, having him agree to a date or two and them bail would hurt more.

    I still think my suggestion would work. It’s appropriate to the venue. Gives her plausible deniability. Gives him a wide open door. Gives her some influence of how the interaction goes (i.e., chances to flirt and steer things in the right direction). Low risk. If he’s really not interested, then he explains the exercise and says “Ok, nice to meet you, I’ve got to finish my workout.” Liza will be a little sad but not truly embarassed. Whereas, “No, sorry, I don’t want to have coffee with you” can cut quite deep.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    As for “eyefucking”, maybe he has something in his eye. There is plausible deniability in this. You can’t built a relationship from nothing. There is nothing.


    You’re right there is nothing. We have yet to say a word to each other.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    OfftheCuff: I think liza is being reasonable here. I’ve seen low-dominance marriages where the guy just wants a Mom with benefits. It’s pretty weak, and not unreadonable to ask for better.
    —-
    Those unions are just plain sad.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Hope,

    Yes, I read tthe study on Friday. It is saying that in this day and age women are expected to approach more than men. At least, that is how I read it.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Liza, the first part should just be getting friendly. That’s how it started with my husband. I had no firm interest, just an inkling, as in, “this person is interesting, and I’d like to know him better.” So I asked for his personal contact to talk to him one-on-one. It wasn’t like “I want to have sex with him now!”

    I think guys can see and receive the “get to know better” interest, and will act accordingly and take over the role of the one chasing you and demonstrating who they are. Plus it doesn’t come off as too aggressive/dominant and has plenty of plausible deniability.

    You don’t skip from A straight to Z. You go through the intermediate steps and see what the “potential” holds.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    By the way, if I hadn’t asked for his info, he probably would not have made a move on me, and the whole thing would have either taken a lot longer, fizzled out or never happened. You have to strike while the iron is hot, which is in that initial period of just meeting someone new, about a few weeks.

    So if you see potential, get yourself positioned to evaluate the potential, which means talking to the guy. If you don’t talk to him, it’ll never happen. And 99.9999999% of the time, the guy isn’t going to make the move to ask for contact information/give it out to you without you asking. He might look at you, or ask you about something mundane, or just silently think “what if.”

    This just happened at lunch. We were at a group lunch, and a coworker female who noticed the single coworker guy checking out the waitress said he should write his number down. He said that the waitress was cute, but he didn’t want to write down his number on the receipt. He said it would be too weird. Good guys don’t make moves on total strangers. Case in point. :]

  • Herb

    @Escoffier

    Liza has owned up to being more than a bit beta-phobic. So if she just boldly asks the guy out and it works, that will only reinforce in her mind his betatude.

    Then she needs to look for dates in places where high dominance, relationship oriented men look for dates.

    That place in this day and age is not the gym.

  • Cooper

    @Richard
    I can be oblivious to IOIs. I literally have to be consciously looking or else I won’t pick up on the now obvious signals.
    It seems that in today’s SMP, everyone is fighting to maintain the frame of Least Interest.
    I can remember back in the days of High-School parties, I hadn’t realized this girl had even an iota of interest until she’d pulled me to the side and our lips had locked.
    I’m not sure what it says about me, but I simply don’t pick up on nonverbal signals, and I can’t catch a innuendo to save my life. It something about the uncertainty – the question of whether or not something is actually there – I don’t just don’t waste any thought of what may very well not be even exist.
    So to women, I say be overt as you can. I’m not going think of you as too masculine or too dominant – there’s obviously way sto approach while maintaining any frame you wish. (ie feminine or submissive)
    But any nonverbal signal is going to go right over my head – or at least I’m going to let it.

  • Emily

    >> “I wouldn’t know how to eyefuck. Is it just a long stare or is there some other action required? Like an intermittent squint? Or winking?”

    It seems like one of those things that could be easily interpreted as “creepy”.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Cooper. “non verbal”? How about, “you have very attractive eyes”. So I figured, next time I shaved, I’d look to see what she was talking about. The rest were more obvious.

  • http://footpole.wordpress.com Inlone

    @186 Nate Winchester
    “The guy thinks so little of himself, he thought a girl was more interested in a statue.”
    That’s it exactly. I have actually been this guy in real life (but without Ronald McDonald being present).

    @205 Richard
    “Back in the day, if a woman had touched my bicep, I’d have figured she was trying to see if I was a prospect to lift something for her, something real heavy.”
    LOL

    @216 Emily
    “Creepy” is a word that men almost never use to describe women. Crazy, maybe; but not creepy.

    @218 MPQ
    Ha! That actually happened to me in 7th-grade gym class. I was playing ping pong, and suddenly I got goosed from behind by this girl who had, um, a “reputation”. Scared the heck out of me.

  • Wanda Reasoner

    Gosh, I really don’t know how to tell a guy straight up that I like him. I let actions speak for itself instead.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Good advice from Hope.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Marc,

    I don’t want to start something that I think will end abruptly, and have to see them daily.

    God, I know that feeling.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Another thing that needs pointing out is that men’s sex drive, being innately so much more constant & overwhelming than women’s means that pretty much all men – with the exception of some dictators of third-world countries – have to spend their days second-guessing their own desires & policing themselves constantly from receiving the wrong impression, just to stop themselves from bending every third girl they see over a car bonnet & fucking the shit out of them.

    If we all could do that… well, that would be heaven, obviously, but all societies, without exception, strongly disapprove of such behaviour, & there are life-ruining – or even ending – consequences for any man who acts like that without thinking. Even before feminism this was the case.

    Women, of course, have their own reasons for caution, primarily centered around the repercussions of pregnancy. But men have that fear too, & a whole bunch of other ones on top. A woman is never going to be locked up for 16 years for getting the wrong end of the eyefucking stick, or beaten to death by an angry sister/girlfriend/wife for approaching her brother/boyfriend/man. Even without those life-or-death fears, all men know they run the risk of getting trapped into a relationship with a woman who is going to expect a whole lot more, when all they’re thinking is she has a nice ass. We’re just so easily led when the little head does the thinking.

    What this means is that men are daily looking for reasons to disbelieve their own senses in regard to signals they constantly receive – or feel they receive – from the women they see all around. It isn’t necessarily that men don’t pick up on your signals, it’s just that they have trained themselves to doubt their natural instincts on this every step of the way, just in order to survive.

    Heavy, I know, but true. Life isn’t a rom-com.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    I guess that helps explain the cartoon, too.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    “I wouldn’t know how to eyefuck. Is it just a long stare or is there some other action required? Like an intermittent squint? Or winking?”

    It seems like one of those things that could be easily interpreted as “creepy”.

    —–
    Intense steering directly into each other eyes while they are locked. It feels like we are both slowly undressing each other but with our eyes, of course. He has beautiful baby blues too.

    It is not creepy if the two people doing it are really attracted to one another or into it.

    I have had guys attempt to EF me in public and it was uncomfortable and creepy because I was interested or attracted to them.

    You can find love anyway at any time. I would rather not find it in a bar.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Liza207

      It seems to me all you need to do is add the one-finger “come here” gesture to the eye fucking. It’s not much of a leap if you’re already holding eye contact for that long.

  • Escoffier

    Liza, are you in Manhattan?

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    About disliking betas:

    I do not have anything against them. I do not find much wrong with them. They tend to be pretty solid guys with good values. Most of the men that are husbands and fathers are beta. I have quite few beta men in my family and they are wonderful family men but they also possess some dominate traits. I believe the men that are being described in the manosphere are actually desperate omegas and gammas. The man (the ones in mother/son or role reversed relationships) I was referring to when Herb, asked about how much dominance I required from a man was most likely an omega or a gamma (now, I really dislike them). Most beta men tend to prefer a more egalitarian relationship model. That is fine with me too, as long as he knows that he has to take up a bit more than 50% of the responsibilities and decision-making.

    In my opinion, the men that are being described in the blogosphere are not beta males. Yes, many of them are a bit more unassuming than alpha males (who are absolutely bad bets for marriage and they do not make particularly good family men). I do not get why there is so much distain for betas when the men that really deserve it are alphas, omegas, gammas and so on. Betas are men that are far more admirable. Unfortunately, they do often get the shitty end of the stick.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Liza, are you in Manhattan?

    Yes.

  • Escoffier

    Well, it’s fairly brutal here. I am half joking but have you thought about moving?

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Well, it’s fairly brutal here. I am half joking but have you thought about moving?

    Yes, many times.

  • Escoffier

    Liza, please try what I suggested and report back. I am 99% sure it will work.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Susan,

    It has gone on long enough.

    Escoffier,

    Will do.

  • Desiderius

    “I really don’t get it.”

    As if.

    Here’s a socially acceptable way to describe the epidemic.

  • Schala

    “2) If he’s not interested, he’s really on the spot. I agree with those guys who said we don’t want to be in that position. Strong chance he will agree to the coffee date or whatever just because he thinks it would be mean to say no, and it’s only coffee, right? Then before he knows it he’s knee deep in the ditch with no plan for getting out. As much as getting turned down outright would hurt Liza’s feelings, having him agree to a date or two and them bail would hurt more.”

    Are you serious?

    I’ve heard about the “I gotta accept or they’re gonna be so hurt!” meme from feminists, about reasons why women don’t reject men overtly, and how this is a distinctly female problem that men couldn’t ever experience, them presumably being used to being direct and uncaring.

  • Schala

    Personally, I go with Hope in how I work. I got to know you personally for a while. No way I can gauge you in a single day, even less a moment of less than 30 minutes just once. And from afar? Gimme a break.

    I have to talk with you, as an acquaintance or someone I meet often, for a few weeks to months, and then I can fairly predict that I’ve seen the potential red flags and filtered the cads and chasers.

    Who’ll get will be more dominant than me. I’m just not dominant, not even backseat dominant. Anyone WOULD be more dominant by definition. So, I filter a lot more for compatibility than dominance.

    I still make my own decisions. Not doing so is not the mark of a submissive, it’s the mark of a child (as in the opposite of an adult). I do have a problem standing up for myself when it means stepping on someone else’s toes (for example, pushing someone’s shopping cart off when I should have access to the packing area in a grocery shop, instead of waiting until they clear the way, 2 minutes later – I just won’t do it). So I’m pretty socially submissive, even as I’m assertive in the face of an injustice.

  • someINTP

    This article is correct that women should be more demonstrative in their interest towards a (beta) male. I noticed that women are much more timid in their signals to beta males. They are quite flirtatious with alpha males even when it leads to nothing.

    Only in hindsight do I notice weak signals of interest. A woman is usually quite friendly with me until I notice erratic changes in her behavior, like frustration, impatience, and avoidance. Only afterwards do I realize that I did not perform according to the context and her expectations, leading to embarrassment and shame. For example, I recently walked with a female acquaintance as I was on my way home. When I parted with her midway–she lived in the same direction–she looked upset and was chilly towards me the next day. Now that I remember our conversation, which was both humorous and risqué, I could see there being an expectation which was not understood to me. Perhaps, I sent her the wrong message. She understands my personality a little better now and her congeniality has resumed.

    I can only remember one woman who was quite forward in her interest. She batted her eyes in my direction at a club and I responded immediately to her interest. I bought her a drink and we had a nice conversation about her aspirations. She gave me a kiss on the cheek and that was the last I saw of her. I prefer this directness.

    The previous weekend at an Irish pub, I asked another female acquaintance about the kind of man she wanted to marry. She couldn’t point out anyone similar to her type in the pub. She merely said that they had to have a great smile. Later that night, in the middle of a heated political conversation, she leaned forward and told me that I had a great smile. I hesitated for a few seconds and then I resumed the debate. This was an incredible subtle and ill timed signal of interest, if it was one. I treated it as an anomaly, and she didn’t punish me for it too much. Later that night, her drunk friend, who was there without her spouse, kept rubbing her thighs against my thighs under the bar table. I figured that she had lost all feeling in her legs and did not know where to place them. But then she kept telling me (the whole night) that she was drunk. She wanted me to do something. But what??? I told her to drink some water to avoid dehydration. She ignored me for the rest of the night. I had annoyed her in some way. Did she want me to take the advantage in her intoxicated state?

    What strange creatures women are. I can somewhat figure out what is in their head and yet I can’t wrap my arm around it… literally. I am smart, but not smart with women. These subtleties are an overestimation of my abilities. If I were a caveman, I think they would give me a fair chance at deciphering their signals.