It turns out that was actually a guy dressed in a clown suit looking for love. But she wasn’t talking to him. So as always, everyone was sad but the dumb guy. -Will
Employing a strategy of Coy Flirtation isn’t the best move in today’s dating and mating environment. While it’s not a guarantee (see above), being direct is the most effective way of showing interest in a man. Promiscuous women are generally quite practiced at this, but women preferring a more traditional approach to sex and relationships may be sending signals too weak to pick up.
Based on societal changes in women’s roles and changes in women’s attitudes toward dating behavior women were expected to be likely to approach men. Additionally, based on prior research examining women’s role in flirting, a significant effect for type of opening line was hypothesized. Opening lines that directly indicate an interest in dating were expected to be perceived as most effective and most direct by both men and women.
Barking Up the Wrong Tree: What’s the best way for a woman to show interest in a man?
{ 236 comments… read them below or add one }
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Women who prefer a traditional approach need a wing man with whom she can be direct. If there is no wing man, create one. Use the middle guy as the wing man since she was obviously nervous to the guy in the clown suit; however, I’m not absolutely clear who she is interested in.
@SW
So when my mom told me that a boy chases a girl until she catches him, she was wrong.
@Jonny
I think the point of the cartoon was that the girl was going after the middle guy because he was the one she was attracted to, but the clown was the guy who was looking for love, though unattractive. She wasn’t open enough to look past the clown suit.
Hahaha
One of my favorite exchanges from the show Sports Night (my favorite sit-com of all time):
I’d like to point out three things:
1. Jenny is a porn star, yes a woman the man in question has seen in porn (although he hasn’t realized where he recognizes her from).
2. Jenny had started flirting by talking about math.
3. In the end, to get him to ask her out she wrote “ask me out” on a napkin, smacked his upside the head, and when he said, “what did you do that for” held up the sign.
If you are one of Susan’s 80% of women wanting one of the 80% of men to notice you, you might think you’re invisible because you’re not a porn star. It is just as likely you’re invisible because he’s so used to women not being interested he wouldn’t even notice if a real porn star hit on him.
Oops, cut myself off:
So, be direct…and to be honest, even hold up a sign.
This study just confirmed my fear surrounding this. I am totally crushing on this hot guy at my gym. We are always exchanging eye contact (and there is some eye fucking involved too) and smiles but neither one of us will approach the other. Well, I am expecting him to approach, of course. First off, I am really uncomfortable with approaching a guy and also the thought of doing so makes me feel really masculine. Therefore, it makes sense that promiscuous women who are said to have high levels of testosterone can approach men with ease.
I suspect the guy at the gym is pretty feminized and is expecting me to approach him and I have given it some serious consideration but when it is time I just feel weird (okay scared). To be honest, I am already losing interest and he looks a little frustrated waiting. He can continue to wait because it probably will not happen. I have made it clear as I can with the direct eye contact and smiles, which are universal signs for displaying romantic interest. I may need to start manning-up but I know the guy that I will have to man up to will not produce any tingles for me once I get to know him. I may need to get testosterone injections or remain unattached.
The feminization of American men is truly an American tragedy in and of itself. A real tragedy.
I thought it was that the regular guy has low self-esteem so he assumed she was talking to the clown. What woman would ask a clown on a date?
That’s how I took it too. She was talking to the guy in the middle, but the guy didn’t believe that she was talking to him. He thought she was talking over him to the clown (AKA the Ronald McDonald statue).
>> “What woman would ask a clown on a date?”
Awww… Now any clowns reading this blog are going to feel very discouraged.
Honestly, I thought the guy in cartoon just happened to be eating beside one of those Ronald McDonald manikins.
@Liza207
You can approach him while acting coy and feminine. Like sit next to him looking all cute and say hi.
@Liza
“but I know the guy that I will have to man up to will not produce any tingles for me once I get to know him.”
Is this based on experience, or just a perception that a shy-guy isn’t a man?
” I have made it clear as I can with the direct eye contact and smiles, which are universal signs for displaying romantic interest.”
Is that really as clear as you can be? Do know how many people exchange eye-contact and smiles?
The dude at the gas-station, the middle aged lady I held the door open for, the bus driver I yielded to in traffic, and so on. None of which I feel had a romantic interest in me.
But I’m supposed to approach every girl that makes eye contact and smile?
If a woman was coy with me I’d find it extremely attractive, it’s more feminine to me.
Sports Night reference of Glorious Victory. Loved that show.
My favorite was Jeremy’s speech to Natalie at the poker game about trusting him although that show was a gold mine for good dialogue.
And there was always…
FELICITY HUFFMAN: I only told Natalie because she’s my assistant.
NATALIE: I only told Jeremy because he’s my boyfriend.
JEREMY: I told many many people.
I also stole the line “For I am Dan, doer-of-good-things-for-women” for a while.
@Liza207
So, you can’t stand the idea of rejection.
What if he says no? What if he doesn’t turn on the alpha on your command? What WOULD the girls say?
This post argues that being direct is best (and I’d tend to agree with that, but I’m just a man). Yet despite that, you can’t stomach the idea of employing the advice. Even though you’re crushing on the guy!
And since he hasn’t approached already, he must be feminized and won’t do anything for you? You come across as very judgmental. Maybe he’s taken. Maybe he’s unsure of how to approach in the gym setting. Maybe he’s actually aware of the legal risks he takes just by asking you out! Ever consider these things?
No, he’s just feminized. A “tragedy.” And rather than do anything about it, you’d prefer to sit here and grouse?
@Liza “I am totally crushing on this hot guy at my gym. We are always exchanging eye contact (and there is some eye fucking involved too) and smiles but neither one of us will approach the other. Well, I am expecting him to approach, of course.”
If making eye contact still isn’t enough, then maybe he doesn’t want to approach you. Maybe he has a girlfriend or wife. It might be better to not assume he is feminized. The thing about chance encounters is it doesn’t happen too often. Men do not have enough practice in cold calling. Many times they are shot down. Guess how many times I was rejected? 9 out of 10 times.
Yes, you should approach him. It isn’t about you being masculine, but times have changed and women do need to approach men in some circumstances. Do this to at least close the subject.
“The feminization of American men is truly an American tragedy in and of itself. A real tragedy.”
What women don’t realize is men have adapted to female behavior. Even without feminism, women are largely indifferent, obnoxious, and arrogant. Where men encounter women, they defer to them based on custom, expectations, and the inevitable big mouths that they have. Women are fighters and men cannot fight back in verbal spats.
Use your brain. Women are aggressors. The fact they women are not doing enough to increase their dating chances is perhaps more telling of their attractiveness and their actions.
If you want the date, ask for it. Otherwise, maybe this flirting activity is really a preconceive action on the part of the guy. He probably knows you will reject him anyways. You already accused him of being feminine. What’s up with that?
“…Based on societal changes in women’s roles and changes in women’s attitudes toward dating behavior women were expected to be likely to approach men..”
I think the study is saying that men are now expecting women to approach them more often than not. It does not appear to be 50/50, it is ,as if women are now expected to absorb almost 100% of the risk.
Don’t you think this makes men now appear very feminized? I personally find it a bit disturbing. Although, I know where the feminization is a result of–it still bugs me.
Liza207: ” I have made it clear as I can with the direct eye contact and smiles, which are universal signs for displaying romantic interest.”
Like, that’s your entire toolkit? Srsly?
I tell you, the lack of initiative, imagination and feminine wiles on the part of American women is truly an American tragedy in and of itself. A real tragedy.
“I suspect the guy at the gym is pretty feminized”
Is your gym at the YMCA? It could be that he’s playing for the other team, if you know what I mean (just sayin’).
@Liza
Yeah, I think you should approach, if you feel intereste. And I don’t think it makes you masculine either.
Expecting a guy to approach based off a smile isn’t very far from mind-games – expecting him to read you mind. Which guys don’t like, IMO, it’s no wonder you can tell he’s fustrated. He probably can tell your rolling your eyes at him for not going the 9/10th the distance after you’ve gone a 1/10th.
That’s just the way I see it, approaching definitely take x9 the courage than eye-contact and a smile. (something Id associate more with passing a stranger on the street than romantic interest)
In traditional societies via film or documentaries, women are expected to use manipulation, wing men, and circumstance to pull in the guy. It isn’t merely to get the date, but to get the guy to marry them. The women are committed. There is no half-baked flirting or eye contact.
What I don’t get is why modern women do things half way and expect full buy-in from the guy.
Lisa207:
You can drop something, your purse for example, right when he passes you. He should then help you pick it up and then a conversation is easy to start, FOR HIM. Or you can “acidentally” bump into him with your back as he passes, while you were seemingly totally engaged in conversation with someone else and had your back towards him as he passed and was unaware of him. That also alows him to start a conversation. Women have used stuff like that for centuries and use it in the movies. It works very well because it is still indirect and lets him believe he got the break he needed to start the conversation easily or even if he does understand what really happened it does nt matter much because what officially seems to happen lets him keep his masculine active dignity in tact and you your feminine indirect and responsive dignity in tact.
As for signaling strength in todays SMP. In a discussion of eastern european women a guy described how women from different EE countries comunnicated and could be placed on a scale of indirect to direct. In Poland I think a woman needing money would drop very subtle hints, a woman from Romania or someting would drop less subtle hints and women from Ukraine would just say “Give me money. NOW”. My guess would be women adapt their signals to the degree men are able to pick up the signals and start out as indirect as possible and eventually goes full direct.
I thought it was a poor picture – looked like two girls, one with a short hair cut and a clown!!
I find it interesting that, in the age of feminism, women are happy to have equality in matters where they want equality [e.g. competing with men for the same jobs, enjoying sexual freedom], but they’re perfectly happy with the pre-feminist status quo on areas in which they don’t want equality [i.e. asking the opposite sex out on dates]. Must be nice being able to have your cake and eat it.
Liza – “I think the study is saying that men are now expecting women to approach them more often than not. It does not appear to be 50/50, it is ,as if women are now expected to absorb almost 100% of the risk.”
Well, men shouldered 100% of the risk since… well the beginning of time? Anyway, feminism wanted to create equality. So, here you go! Take all this risk and run with it. Maybe after a decade or two we’ll take some of it back from you, but I’m not making any promises…
Regarding the comic, when a woman says a guy looks “sweet” she generally means one of two things: she considers him to be a sexually repulsive chump or she thinks of him as a useful idiot (i.e. “You look sweet! Will you please hold my purse?”)
I thought it was that the regular guy has low self-esteem so he assumed she was talking to the clown. What woman would ask a clown on a date?
I thought that the girl had low self-esteem because her approach was so graceless and tentative and that the clown suit was symbolic.
LOL. It’s like a Rohrshach test.
Jacko-”I find it interesting that, in the age of feminism, women are happy to have equality in matters where they want equality [e.g. competing with men for the same jobs, enjoying sexual freedom], but they’re perfectly happy with the pre-feminist status quo on areas in which they don’t want equality [i.e. asking the opposite sex out on dates]. Must be nice being able to have your cake and eat it.”
The problem with telling everyone you are strong and independent is that eventually they start to expect you to be strong and independent. One of the chief goals of Feminism is to protect women from having to actually prove they are strong and independent.
I don’t fear rejection, it happens. Approaching guys is just uncomfortable for me. I guess as a woman I have never put a lot thought into having to be aggressive /assretive when it comes to men. I grew up in an environment surrounded by very aggressive/assertive men. I am not aggressive when it comes to men but I am in other areas of my life (in business and the arts you do have to face a lot of rejection). I know very few women who are aggressive when it comes to approaching men. I usually see that kind of aggressive behavior from slutty women or older more desperate women.
I have spoken to older women (Baby-Boomers) about male bahavior in the current SMP and most of them are absolutely dumbfounded and have harsh things to say about how feminized men are today. I agree with them but at the same time I am irritated with them because they act as if they don’t know why. My own mother irritates too because she has always seen casual sex as empowering. She and her generation have created a horrible mess for me and other women who share my values and beliefs.
@Cooper
No, just the ones who want you to approach. If you approach ones who don’t you’re a creep:
http://xkcd.com/642/
@Liza207: Internalize the above cartoon. Most men have experienced that at least once by their 20s.
Plus, as people have pointed out:
1. He might have a gf
2. He might be married
3. He might be gay
4. He might not be into you.
I say put on the big girl panties and go talk to him.
Like, that’s your entire toolkit? Srsly?
Esau,
Yep. That is all Ive got.
Wudang,
I am making a trip to Europe next month for the first time. I am really curious about the dating climate there and how the men will respond ti neb when they are interested. I would not mind meeting a Pierre, Antonio, Claus or even an Ian just to see how they differ from American men.
I had a Russian girlfriend who was really aggressive when it came to men but it did not work out for her most times. She was a bit too much for the men here.
@Cooper
Yes, I make eye contact and smile with lots of people. However, it’s generally very clear when this is meant as an invitation to approach. You make eye contact and smile with people you normally would run into (cashier, delivery guy, doorman, etc). You don’t normally make eye contact and smile at people on the other side of the room at a gym. The context is very important, and in this case I’d say she’s being blatantly obvious. I think there’s two possibilities here: the guy is taken and enjoys the attention (who doesn’t), or he’s too nervous to approach.
@Herb
You rarely get the creep label if you have any talent at approaching. If you’re confident, witty, and direct you can get rejected a lot, but you’ll almost never get “creep” tagged to you. The creep label gets tagged to the sweaty, clammy, nervous, can-barely-speak approaches.
@All on women approaching
Yes, it does happen. I’ve been approached before. But in general, women don’t do it because by and large they’re AWFUL at it. It really cracks me up sometimes to see how nervous and bumbling they often are. If the girl’s attractive, this lack of talent is disarmingly cute. The far more common situation is for the girl to put herself in the easiest possible situation for you to approach. Most often this happens where the girl will physically position herself so close to you that it’s almost impossible not to talk, as you’ll like bump into her, spill a drink on/near her, or something similar. I often take the invitation if I’m interested, or chuckle at it when I’m not because it’s so blindingly obvious and cute.
@Liza207
Yep. That is all Ive got.
Even in the old pre-feminist days women were expected to do more than just eye contact and smiling.
Well, men shouldered 100% of the risk since… well the beginning of time? Anyway, feminism wanted to create equality. So, here you go! Take all this risk and run with it. Maybe after a decade or two we’ll take some of it back from you, but I’m not making any promises…
—–
I am not really a feminist. I know my limitations as a woman and I am fine with that. I just don’t believe in emulating male behavior or competing with men–not interested.
Liza: “Therefore, it makes sense that promiscuous women who are said to have high levels of testosterone can approach men with ease.”
Hey, no fair. If you want something, you have to work for it. I made up some lie about not knowing where the library vending machine was to break the ice with a cute guy. (BS, I know the cocoa content of every bar in that thing.) Not sure why the gods smiled on me but the machine was broken resulting in a chatty consolation trip to the convenience store. What do you have to lose, really? Other than your self-esteem and stuff.
If it goes right, it’s fun.
If it goes horribly wrong, it’s practise.
/sneaksbackoutslowly
I KNOW girlz just love to open convo with guys like that…
But, alas – I cannot help
those type of fellows
Am I the only one who assumed that Ronald McDonald was a statue? Hasn’t anyone else seen one of those? They look exactly like that, same pose even.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_d5q6NN0N3nI/TLkTEazUvGI/AAAAAAAAB94/KwBJXY1rp1c/s1600/sitting_ronald.jpg&imgrefurl=http://soullibertyfaith.com/ronald-mcdonald-religion/&usg=__DJP7kXW991iySxgTxDczC5nhF8Q=&h=330&w=247&sz=22&hl=en&start=13&zoom=1&tbnid=TQ59pTXqxOnAqM:&tbnh=119&tbnw=89&ei=ilGtT7L6HLK16AHdr5TiDA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dronald%2Bmcdonald%2Bstatue%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-US%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1
So, guys bad at approaching => creep
Girls bad at approaching => cute
@Liza207
I’m going to make to you a point I made in the prior thread you glossed (you replied to the rest of the post but not this one):
Backbone is not dominance.
Than means approaching a man (backbone) isn’t “emulating male behavior” (dominance). It’s making someone aware who might not be.
I hate to say this, but if you need so much dominance that merely having to approach a man makes him feminized in your eyes you might be headed for real trouble. Lots of women like you wind up in my world and invariably their first few trips around the block are ugly. I have no reason to think their vanilla counterparts fare much better.
Liza – “I am not really a feminist. ”
Well, as you stated above, the feminists before you messed it up. Now, regardless of if you buy into feminism or not, you and everyone else (men and women equally) have to suffer for it. This is just one tiny example of how badly things are screwed up.
Now, I’ve been told repeatedly that I can either:
1. complain and whine about it, do nothing, and suffer
or
2. adapt and be happy.
Might I suggest to you that learning to approach might be in your best interests, even if it makes you uncomfortable? I am still uncomfortable with being “dominant” but I’m doing my best to figure out how and feel OK with it because my only other option is #1.
It really sucks when you have to take your own medicine.
But hey, you are in really good company!
Chris_in_CA,
Yes, I am very judgmental. I guess the comes with being INTJ and I am also 91% intuitive. According to the test I took here (I took it twice and the results were the same each time).
So, yeah I do judge harshly and very aware of a man (or woman) showing romantic interest no matter how subtle they think they are being about it.
@ Liza
“I am not really a feminist. I know my limitations as a woman and I am fine with that. I just don’t believe in emulating male behavior or competing with men–not interested.”
So act like a woman, be feminine, and go ask him if he would like to go on a walk to cool down after the work out. Plan a route so that if he doesn’t take the lead or have an idea of where he wants to go you end up at a coffee shop or smoothie place. Have some feminine clothes ready to wear after your workout so that you can look like a woman. You’re not competing with men, you’re not taking a masculine behavior, attitude, or strategy. You’re playing to your strengths and showing him you’re a feminine woman who’s interested in him.
@Herb
So, guys bad at approaching => creep
Girls bad at approaching => cute
Yes, exactly. Sexual double standard. Believe it or not, they do exist. You can cry all you want, but how many girls do you know who have been labeled a “creep”?
@ Sassy
“She was talking to the guy in the middle, but the guy didn’t believe that she was talking to him. He thought she was talking over him to the clown (AKA the Ronald McDonald statue).”
One thing that I just noticed and is funny to me, but Ronald has a totally Alpha body language going on. Confidently taking up space while having a good posture, head up, looking at the world. Just take away that shit eating grin. Then either some self deprecating humor at his outfit, or just ditch the clown suit, and he’d have women crawling to snuggling into that arm non-stop.
@Zach
I was more pointing that out for Liza. Even if she’s bad at it, it is more likely to be cute than bad.
Also, I think women in general who complains men don’t approach needs to internalize that double standard and calibrate their responses to men who hold no interest to them.
If you claim “X is all I want” and then piss on X when offered you’re not going to get much X (unless X is “someone into golden showers”).
Lisa #6, I’m under the impression that you think you’re being forward with “eye contact” and “smiles”. I’m catching up on this thread – so someone may have already pointed it out – but you’re not.
Eye contact and smiles happen all the time and mean all sorts of things, and I’m sure that, like most of us, this guy you’re crushing on has been trained to not make too many assumptions. Fact is, he can get into a lot of trouble these days if he makes the wrong assumptions.
It’s disconcerting that you think being more forward than that is “masculine”, and that he’s “feminized.” (I’m just quoting your words here.) Is that a common thought in your group of cohorts? I hope not. Look at the cartoon again. The female stick-figure is being very feminine, almost demure. The male stick figure is being cautious, and rightly so.
By the way, some seem to have missed that the third character *is* a Ronald McDonald manikin. He’s not real, and the guy in the middle knows he. He’s been trained to believe that he ranks rather below manikins in the SMP. In his world, females don’t approach him like that (just everyone else), so she’s obviously going after a dummy first. That’s the low self-esteem part.
Did I not mention the eye-fucking that goes on between us? Eye-fucking, people.
Liza – you are an INTJ? Pretty damn rare for a woman, but it is funny because I’ve been chatting with one on another blog, and just today I said something along the lines of how close to a unicorn she was.
I will say that knowing this does make sense of your approach and directness when posting. Since finding out about MBTI, I’ve often wondered if being in a relationship with an INTJ would be easier. I think in many ways it would, but I can see that if we ever found ourselves on opposite sides of a debate, it could really get nasty quickly.
Perhaps the dominance thing is an INTJ trait? I and other INTJ men I know seem to find it hard to be “dominant”, and so far the two INTJ women I know (you included of course) seem to greatly desire dominance in a mate. Perhaps we are just not dominant people?
“Eye contact and smile” does not mean approach. I know I’m going against consensus when I say this. It might signal friendly interest or curiosity, but not necessarily romantic interest. The biggest problem with approaching one for a date is the presumption that women are interested. It’s a leap of faith. The guy can open his mouth and instantly the circumstances change.
The change in circumstance is what women don’t take into account. Women can change their minds. They can give out their phone numbers and don’t accept the call. They can simple beg out. Its seems like women just want to be able to get the opportunity to shoot the guy down. Most approaches are NOT successful.
@ Liza
Normally I wouldn’t respond to you again so quickly, but this caught my eye:
“Yes, I am very judgmental. I guess the comes with being INTJ and I am also 91% intuitive. According to the test I took here (I took it twice and the results were the same each time).”
There is literally nothing more of a turn off for any masculine, alpha guy than a judgmental woman. You should work on curbing that in or you’re in for a world of hurt. Three roads lie before you:
1. Changing that instinct so you can find a man that satisfies you without henpecking him to death
2. Riding the serial monogamy train for the rest of your life with Alpha men who have options that learn they don’t want to deal with judgmental attitudes when the next girl at the gym looks just as good as you and won’t make him wade through judgmental attitudes.
3. Doing number 2, or simply skipping to this action, and settling with a beta, effeminate guy who would have made you happy if you hadn’t beaten him into the ground and then ground him into dust with your judgmental attitudes.
Great post, Aunt Suze.
My brother came up with the concept of ‘pinging’ to describe the palpable sense of a woman directing her sexual interest your way. Due to its short bursts of intensity, almost like the waves of sound used by dolphins, bats, and submarines for navigation and communication, a woman’s interest, to a subtly & sexually aware man, is unmistakable and striking.
However, not many men are so aware. For many, Twirling your hair, touching your collarbone, laughing at his jokes are just speaking in a foreign language that most men can’t even hear. Thus, the analogy to sonar is also apropos.
Girls, to convey interest to the average guy, you need to do more than ping him (unless he’s sexually attuned such as myself), you need to send an actual radio message in his native language.
You can always try pinging first, and then if he’s too dense, you can always become more overt in your communications. But believe me, if you ping me, and I think you’re cute, I’ll be sure to follow up on that.
In high school a girl told me I didn’t know when chicks were flirting with me.
Add to it all risks that are now mundane like rejection and ridicule which are beat out further by inticement then rejection then ridicule and bettered after that most of all by inticement followed up by rejection-laden-with-contempt-for-his-existence … it seems like men can be forgiven for responding cautiously to no approach, or a coy approach. I sometimes do (respond to the coy approach), but I always ask myself if she’s worth it first. She really has to be worth the risk.
@Jonny
Yes, most approaches are not successful. So? Does that mean you should never approach. The guy who approaches 10 women and gets 2 dates has a lot more dates than the guy who approaches 0 women.
And generally smiles and eye contact in situations where there’s no call for it are generally invitations to approach. Even if you’re wrong, what’s the big deal? I’ve mistaken friendliness for interest before, approached, and been rejected. My life did not end.
Ted D,
I really could not imagine dating another INTJ we would drive eachother completely nuts. Besides, neither one of us would make a move towards the other anyway to get anything started, so…
Yes, I really do want and need dominance in my man. It might explain the men I have been attracted to in the past. And, you all know what kind.
OK, I’m completely confused about what the cartoon means. Yes, in retrospect, the clown does look like one of those McDonald’s statues. But what about this quote from the post?
“It turns out that was actually a guy dressed in a clown suit looking for love. But she wasn’t talking to him. So as always, everyone was sad but the dumb guy.”
There is literally nothing more of a turn off for any masculine, alpha guy than a judgmental woman. You should work on curbing that in or you’re in for a world of hurt. Three roads lie before you:
—–
Leap of a beta,
This is true, actually. I have scared away a few masculine, alpha guys because I was being too judgy. I have also rejected alphas because I judged them as being horrible manwhores and man-sluts. And I was right everytime–that was the intutive thing at work.
@Jacko
Heh, it is, which is why they don’t want to give it up. We’ve got gender equality, and that’s a done deal, so it’s time for women to give up on chivalry and courting. They should share the responsibilities for the attraction and what follows equally. In time, they will learn they have no other choice. As the marriage rate continues to decline, women will compete more aggressively for the marriageable men. But it’s going to take a while. A woman who is willing to meet a guy halfway today has a competitive advantage.
I think a lot of guys are happy to approach if the risk of rejection is lowered significantly. Direct eye contact and smiles reduces it, obviously, but not entirely. That same girl may have a bf, or maybe she’s just a shameless flirt in general. There are a lot of those around these days.
From a female POV, your best chance at having attraction reciprocated is to make it very clear you’re feeling it. That means shouldering some of the risk – I don’t think men really expect women to do it all. Some of the risk each time, or all of the risk some times, and there will be times when guys still do approach and you take on none of the risk. But the woman who is prepared to go direct will do better than the woman who is passive.
“You miss 100% of the shots you never take.”
Wayne Gretzky
@Liza207
Feminism has robbed men of their roles and replaced them with women, or has tried. The result is a surfeit of masculinized women and feminized men. That’s the result of denying gender differences. A whole two generations has been re-engineered. Biology will win out in the end of course, but I’m interested in what people can do right now.
@Lisa207
I wouldn’t say smiles and looks are universal signs of romantic interest. Not in a world where feminist go on about “Just because I smile at you/talk with you/laugh at your jokes/hug you does not mean I am interested in you”.
Also, there’s a difference between making the first move and acting masculine. If it’s too much for you to at all approach then suit yourself, but surely just striking up a conversation with him won’t make you feel masculine? You don’t have to grab his crotch and point at the bathroom, just start small talking. He might well still be the first to properly escalate.
@Harkat
If she’s willing to work at that level she could just see what’s in his left rear pocket and put matching hankies in her right one.
As much as I laugh at flagging (even though I totally get it if you’re into being that casual), maybe it’s time has come to go mainstream
I wouldn’t say smiles and looks are universal signs of romantic interest. Not in a world where feminist go on about “Just because I smile at you/talk with you/laugh at your jokes/hug you does not mean I am interested in you”.
——–
Oh no, icky!
I believe the eye contact threshold for sexual attraction is three seconds. To be safe, double it. If you stare him down for 6 seconds and he looks away, let it go. Personally, I’d find a way to tease him a bit.
I think Mike C met his gf at the gym. They were staring at each other a lot, and then at some point she started walking the long way around to avoid him. I can’t recall the exact details – maybe he’ll stop by and fill us in. But I think that finally got him to approach, and he learned that she was avoiding him because she was so nervous. They really, really had the hots for each other, but it might never have happened!
I heard a cute story last weekend. Carly went to a CVS pretty late at night to get a Gatorade after the bar closed. They were on special and the sign said 2 for 1. She approached a cute guy she’d noticed when she walked in held up two Gatorades and said, “Wanna be my Plus One?” They went out for brunch the next day. How adorable is that?
@ Liza
“This is true, actually. I have scared away a few masculine, alpha guys because I was being too judgy. I have also rejected alphas because I judged them as being horrible manwhores and man-sluts. And I was right everytime–that was the intutive thing at work. ”
So you don’t like men who aren’t dominant, you have proof that the ones that are will usually screen you out (and no, you didn’t “scare them away,” they judged you to be not worth their time when they could find someone else more enjoyable to be with), and you screen out the few dominant men who would spend time with you as ‘players and manwhores.’
In what world do you expect to find this unicorn you appear to be chasing?
“Hi, what’s your name? Nice to meet you, (name). What’s your phone number? Why? So I can call you, and ask you on a date.”
This works fine for me as a guy with the goal of making an extremely clear date offer. I wildly speculate it may just work out for women who are cold approaching guys and want to avoid sending ‘weak signals’ as well. Your mileage may vary, but hey, no way to know but to ‘man up’ and test it out yourself, right?
@Susan
Now, first off, hanging out with Ronald McDonald is not a good look.
Second- while girls asking guys out directly SOUNDS good in practice, very few women will have the stomach for it. In my experience- the strategy that works is 1)Look Good and 2)Be in his space
Even if a guy isn’t that assertive, if you make it natural for him to fall into conversation with you, he will probably take the bait. And yes, for some guys you will have to make multiple passes at this. But generally if he thinks you’re attractive and you’re being sociable, you’re in. The key is for it to be as natural as possible.
Ha, Isabel! It’s been ages, don’t sneak away!
I cosign your advice. Also, rejection gets easier with practice.
@Zach “Does that mean you should never approach. ”
No, but don’t be disappointed if he doesn’t. If he doesn’t care, his loss is only theoretical. He hasn’t lost what he hasn’t attempted.
@SusanW “Biology will win out in the end of course, but I’m interested in what people can do right now.”
Its seems like biology depends on women more than men. Unless women marry and have kids at younger ages and decide for forgo careers, men won’t pick up their end since they cannot or will not.
This complaining about men who won’t date them reeks of displaced anger. Even as low as the marriage rate is, feminism is succeeding in turning husbands into bachelors and wives into sluts. There are more singles than ever and every single female wants a chance at a eligible bachelor except that it doesn’t work that way. Women have made themselves ineligible with high sexual partners (relative to the man), older (beyond 30), higher income/status, and a perception of superiority.
If you want biology to prevail, marry young, have kids, and stay married.
Feminism has robbed men of their roles and replaced them with women, or has tried. The result is a surfeit of masculinized women and feminized men. That’s the result of denying gender differences. A whole two generations has been re-engineered. Biology will win out in the end of course, but I’m interested in what people can do right now.
——-
This has all gotten out of hand. I really cannot wait until everyone comes to their senses on this and that probably won’t be for another two generations.
If a female asked for my advice on this I would tell her the same thing; meet the guy half-way. I might also add, get over yourself too. Ha!
@Liza207
Two quick context questions: how old are you and roughly where are you?
Honestly men are not that complicated,just sit beside him,you don’t even have to approach ,you have plausible deniability.If you are attractive he’ll talk to you,odds are he’ll talk to you anyway.Remember it’s just a conversation,shoot the breeze.Read http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com/
has good stuff and lady friendly,and http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/ the same.
Maybe he thinks you’re DTF and he’s not the casual type. Maybe he sees “troublesome slut and psycho clinger” in that eye-fucking. I don’t know, but it’s possible.
I know one woman whose go-to strategy in bars is to eye-fuck a guy for as long as it takes until he comes over. And I mean as long as it takes. 10 or 15 minutes? No problem. A couple of summers ago one guy took the bait, got her number and called her. They went out. At the end of the night he expected her to come over. She said she thought it was best if she head home. He grabbed her hand, put it on his hard cock, and told her she better deliver on her original offer.
The weirdest thing is the ending to this story. They’ve been a serious couple ever since. I don’t approve, but she’s never asked me. He’s a controlling jerk, but she got exactly what she asked for. She’s very pretty, btw. And he’s not. I really don’t get it.
Women that approach and hit on you are the best kind of women. And although you do have to be at a certain level of attractiveness, it’s not as difficult as you may think it is. Women try to talk to me fairly frequently, and as a result, I have it down to an almost exact science. I know how to get women to approach me at will.
Most of you are probably thinking that the best places to get hit on are at bars and nightclubs. Wrong. I’ll let you in on something interesting: most of the women who approach me are sober or haven’t drank enough to really be considered drunk. I am most likely to get hit on by women in places where there aren’t alcohol or where you don’t really drink to get drunk (i.e. a classroom, small party, or restaurant).
Why are women most likely to hit on men when they are sober? They aren’t. Sober women are usually women that don’t frequent nightclubs, at least not on any kind of normal basis. What that means is that they don’t see too many attractive men, so when they see one, they are more likely to approach him. Most of the women who approach me work a lot and don’t have time to go out too often.
Also, you should do more alone. Why? Because your friends can make women more nervous to approach you, or they could see your friend as unattractive and her friend won’t want her to approach because she thinks that she’ll get stuck with the unattractive friend. The last three women to approach me approached me when I was alone, or they thought I was alone.
Remember in school how you would sit next to a girl that you liked hoping that she would talk to you? Well, if you’re attractive, keep doing it. Nine times out of ten, if you are attractive, and sit close to women, they will talk to you. Don’t make a woman have to walk across a room to talk to you. Simply sit next to them, mind your own business, and let them choose to talk to you.(credit Assanova’s now defunct blog)
reverse the sex’s and it still applies,alone or a maximum of three in your group,if there’s a guy in your group you probably won’t get approached at all.
@Liza “This has all gotten out of hand. I really cannot wait until everyone comes to their senses on this and that probably won’t be for another two generations.”
2 generations of what? Are you getting married and having kids? What people raising our future generation?
I think Mike C met his gf at the gym. They were staring at each other a lot, and then at some point she started walking the long way around to avoid him. I can’t recall the exact details – maybe he’ll stop by and fill us in. But I think that finally got him to approach, and he learned that she was avoiding him because she was so nervous. They really, really had the hots for each other, but it might never have happened!
——
I found myself taking the long way around the gym yesterday to avoid him because the situation is making really nervy now. I wonder if he was waiting for her break the ice and when she started avoiding him that finally prompted him to finally approach.
I read somewhere online that if a woman feels nervous about approaching a guy and does not know what to talk about then start a conversation by talking about their surroundings. You are both at the gym then talk about things related to that environment. I had every intention of doing that but…
That was a very cute story. It was also very clever using something they had in common at the moment to get his attention.
What woman would ask a clown on a date?
Isn’t that clown heir to the McDonald’s fortune and she’s just a golddigger?
When I read it, I took it that the guy had Game down pat. He was being aloof and/or insinuating that the girl was beneath him and therefor flirting with the clown.
@Susan
Up thread I said:
The friend is the vanilla counterparts I had in mind.
I have a theory that at least some fraction of the women who get in serial abusive relationships or stay in the same one are merely chasing ultra-high levels of dominance. Not chasing alpha in the normal sense we mean here, but a high level of personal dominance like controlling behavior.
Liza, you sounds like the epitome of what makes me nervous about approaching women.
You seem to have an exact idea of what kinda of man you could ever be attracted to, as if you know more about how a man should act than I do.
And you have a trigger-finger ready to blow off any guy that deviates from this picture.
You sound like the girl of my fears – one that is constantly (almost anxiously) looking for signs to verify, their almost predetermined opinion of why, I’m not man enough?
No offense. But seriously, I’d be terrified of approaching a women who is just dying to find that reason why their not attracted to me. (if you look hard enough, you’ll always find something – a flaw)
You sound like you’d send a man packing after a single demonstration of anything remotely Beta, even if everything was great until then.
I can be dominant, and I can accept that women find it attractive and that some need more of it than others to be attracted, but the thought of having display it all the time, in fear of deviating from your obviously predetermined perfect-build, EEK SCARY!
@(R)ev
I love that pinging concept, and also the sonar analogy.
Here’s the thing – if a guy is good at picking up subtle cues it generally means one thing:
He’s had a lot of practice, i.e. he is “fluent” in the language. Massive social proof. The odds of his wanting a relationship are probably low, depending on age.
@Augen
Whenever a woman sees another woman give a nuclear rejection, she should call her out on it immediately. That unfortunate practice by total bitches has given all women a bad name and really upped the ante for guys.
@J
That’s why I interpreted it the way I did. The dumb guy automatically assumed she’d prefer the clown. What Joe said, except that it was not a statue. The clown was sad because she said, “No thanks.” She was sad because her invitation was intercepted. The dumb guy had such low expectations he could not be disappointed.
Doghouse Diaries is written by three different guys. Sounds like one of them saw this happen.
Maybe he thinks you’re DTF and he’s not the casual type. Maybe he sees “troublesome slut and psycho clinger” in that eye-fucking. I don’t know, but it’s possible.
——-
Yeah, is it inappropriate. Sometimes, I can be a little clueless about how men will misinterpete my actions. Like when, I posted pictures of myself in a bikini on a popular dating site and was wondering why the wrong kind of men were contacting me and being overtly sexual when we were communicating . Duh!
Okay, nix the eye-fucking.
@Susan
Not going to happen…the kind of women who do this run in packs and will try to out do each other.
Let’s come up with some good approach lines for Liza. My first suggestion is:
Your pheromones drew me over here.
Very nice. A blend of the traditional with a touch of cockiness.
@BroHamlet
Haha, you’re right!
Agreed. I haven’t heard of many approaches that direct from women. Personally, if I were attracted and getting in the guy’s space didn’t do it, I’d start up a conversation, being flirty and funny, and try to build rapport. If he didn’t take the bait, I wouldn’t risk anything more.
Herb,
I am thirty-something from NYC. Oh, boy.
This is hilarious, it really is a Rorschach.
@ Cooper
“I can be dominant, and I can accept that women find it attractive and that some need more of it than others to be attracted, but the thought of having display it all the time, in fear of deviating from your obviously predetermined perfect-build, EEK SCARY!”
Best way to deal with it is to own it. Act like every thing you do should be attractive to them, even your flaws. Add in a little humor to it too. Should get a smile from them, they’ll gloss over it, and be happy that your dominant side told them to ignore it. Either that or she’s not someone you want to be with anyways. Or, occasionally, it’ll trigger the ‘I’m going to fix this guy’ instinct. Dangerous – can blow up in your face or turn her off.
But mostly, just have fun. Laugh at the world, her, and yourself. I do it in that order.
@Herb
You may be right. I haven’t ever met another woman who would stare so intently for so long to send a signal. It’s like she refuses to take no for an answer. She’s like a black widow spider, so only the most dominant men might approach. Your average guy is probably going to come close to calling her creepy.
As I said, she’s quite pretty, so this behavior is not even necessary. She must have been fishing for a particular type of guy.
Jack said:
“I find it interesting that, in the age of feminism, women are happy to have equality in matters where they want equality [e.g. competing with men for the same jobs, enjoying sexual freedom], but they’re perfectly happy with the pre-feminist status quo on areas in which they don’t want equality [i.e. asking the opposite sex out on dates]. Must be nice being able to have your cake and eat it.”
Great post, I couldn’t have said it better myself. So many women want “equality” until the risk arises that the “equality” might cause them discomfort, hardship or pain. Then they want to whine and bitch about how men won’t ‘man up’.
Women with attitudes like that better deal with it. It’s not our problem, ladies. Get out there, ladies and start getting rejected like us men have been from time immemorial. Being ‘empowered’ is great, no?
And while you’re at it, enjoy your “equality”.
@Liza207
Okay, so you’re having a hard time finding your level of dominance.
How willing are you to try meeting people (not a date or anything, just people) out of your comfort zone? And no, I’m not hitting on you (not my type and I’m in Atlanta).
You sound like you’d send a man packing after a single demonstration of anything remotely Beta, even if everything was great until then.
—–
No. I really like betas but they can be kind of slow on the uptake at times and I wish they would just take more risks with women–namely me. A beta guy with some dominance is ideal to me. Susan, says this all of the time about what women prefer and it is true for most. I am finding that most men these days are either all beta or all alpha. I have uncles who have beta traits but also possess some alpha traits but they are from a different generation. So, they did not have all of the dominant manly traits socialized out of them.
Liza207 said:
“I am finding that most men these days are either all beta or all alpha. ”
Agreed. Unrealistic expectations, chronic criticism and the rejection that they ultimately lead to have a way of smothering men’s confidence. And many men got that not only from women they hoped to have a relationship, but also got that at home while growing up.
This is a pretty interesting post. Learning the best way on how to let a guy you like know what you feel is indeed a very good thing for a girl. Where did you get this idea? Well anyway, thanks for sharing your tips here! I really enjoyed reading this post.
Wow, this post looks good. It’s a good thing to know this method of conveying your feelings to somebody especially for the girls who want to tell what they feel about a guy. Thank you very much for sharing your advice on this matter. How does a man respond to this kind of situation? Your blog is really fun by the way.
“I really like betas but they can be kind of slow on the uptake at times and I wish they would just take more risks with women–namely me.”
Are you sure you’re a woman? You’re a diamond in the rough. You need some training in a charm school. You need to learn some manners.
If your schtick isn’t working, adapt and change.
The thing about taking risk. LOL!!!! Go back to the post about Emotional Prudery. He has nothing invested in you emotionally. You’re not worth the risk.
@Liza207
Without clear indications of interest (such as striking up a conversation and standing close to the guy), statistically speaking, a guy has an 80% or higher chance of rejection. By your interest to eye contact and smiles you’re filtering for the guys who who don’t care about rejection – generally the players and cads. This is a bug, not a feature.
@Mary Elaine, Jemi
Welcome to HUS! Hope you stick around.
@ Leap of a Beta
If you google “Ronald McDonald statue fellatio”, you’ll see a few pics of girls pretending to give the Ronald McDonald statue a blowjob. I thought it was funny and strange at the same time.
You aren’t off base about his alpha pose at all.
Are you sure you’re a woman? You’re a diamond in the rough. You need some training in a charm school. You need to learn some manners.
If your schtick isn’t working, adapt and change.
The thing about taking risk. LOL!!!! Go back to the post about Emotional Prudery. He has nothing invested in you emotionally. You’re not worth the risk.
——-
Wow.
@Liza
“No. I really like betas”
I didn’t get a sense of that, at all, when you said,
“I know the guy that I will have to man up to will not produce any tingles for me once I get to know him.”
Well, that guy Susan describes, as a perfect combination of beig Beta with Alpha too, may fit into that “will not produce tingles for me once I get to know him” category you made for yourself.
Liza:
You need to understand that men, especially young men, have been bombarded with the feminist message that their advances in places like gyms are unwanted and borderline harrassment. Women complain constantly about getting hit on in gyms and other places where they just want to be able to do what they came there to do. Many men take that to heart to one degree or another. Most who don’t are players, so you are sort of self selecting for players.
@susan
“Let’s come up with some good approach lines for Liza.”
How about: “Hey, we’ve been eye fucking for a while now. Maybe it’s high time we start progressing toward the real thing.”
That oughta get his attention.
@ INTJ:
I agree with this. I tell my friends all the time, even though it’s scary you have to at the very least send out clear IOIs! If not, the men you’re interested in will not think that you like them! Being “friendly” with a guy you like is the kiss of death. If you treat him like a platonic friend how is he going to know you’re romantically into him?
I’ve been coaching friends with tips on online dating, and yes even in that venue it applies. If you want a guy you’re talking with to ask you out, you have to make it easy for him to ask him out. Mention a movie or art exhibit you’d like to check out. If he’s into you, 9 times out of 10 he’ll take the bait!
Great subject!
I’ve never directly approached a guy before (and don’t see myself ever doing so), but if I have the stomach for it at the moment I’ll gravitate toward their general vicinity, make small talk with them, ect. This is *extremely* difficult for me as an INFP though, not so much as a woman–at least, that’s what I tell myself, lol.
Oh, and on the rejection front I *only* reject a guy in the least public and quietest way possible. If I’m with a friend I’ll ask the guy if he wants to step aside to speak. If he uses an indirect approach (ex. starting off with “cool shirt…” or something) I keep it a surface conversation unless he escalates it, after which I again only reject quietly.
When it comes to rejection I don’t know when outright cruelty became popular, but it’s ugly. A friend in college did that and I had to drop her, though not only for that reason. She would literally scream at some of them. Scary.
@Passer By
HAHA! I’d love to see the look on his face.
Good to see you pass by – I was thinking of you yesterday, and I see it worked to summon you
I think both sexes have also oriented themselves to expecting the worst. I’ve seen numerous young couples where both kept claiming the other wasn’t interested, despite the fact that it was obvious to everyone else! It usually takes a good mutual friend to knock some sense into both of them. That can work in a social circle, but just think of the connections between strangers that never happen.
Wow, we have a lot of new commenters on this thread! I won’t clutter the stream with individual welcomes, but I’m glad to see all of you here and appreciate your taking the time to comment. Stick around!
@susan
“I was thinking of you yesterday, and I see it worked to summon you”
It’s “Radar Love”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw9CzSSk218
Leap of Beta wrote: “There is literally nothing more of a turn off for any masculine, alpha guy than a judgmental woman. You should work on curbing that in or you’re in for a world of hurt. Three roads lie before you:
1. Changing that instinct so you can find a man that satisfies you without henpecking him to death
2. Riding the serial monogamy train for the rest of your life with Alpha men who have options that learn they don’t want to deal with judgmental attitudes when the next girl at the gym looks just as good as you and won’t make him wade through judgmental attitudes.
3. Doing number 2, or simply skipping to this action, and settling with a beta, effeminate guy who would have made you happy if you hadn’t beaten him into the ground and then ground him into dust with your judgmental attitudes.”
Can’t lurk for this one: This is a wonderful summation. I’ll be upfront: I can be a judgmental, strident chatterbox. As a 5’1″ itty-bitty, it’s that or get ignored and I refuse to be ignored. (My step-bros call me the “air-raid siren.”) I chose option three. My guy is a bookish, second-generation Veitnamese-American from Houston who is a permanent law clerk for a federal court of appeals judge.
Now, the manosphere would immediately discount him as an effeminate doormat. But he’s not. He’s quiet, traditional, religious and polite but also super logical, immensely patient and the kind who can find the best path with calm, sincere argument.
We’re two puzzle pieces that look completely different but which fit perfectly together. I declare the destination – he charts the best course.
@ Sassy
Hahaha. I’m waiting to run lights for a show I designed, but I’ll check those out later. Just the thought of it makes me laugh though. I’m not surprised – posing with statues is the favorite drunk, or even sober, passtime of mine and a bunch of my friends when we travel or explore. Last time we did that was me and a friend acting out an Indian getting stabbed by a colonial followed by a girl in the group having…. Interesting poses under a 25 foot statue of Marilyn Monroe with her skirt getting blown up.
Chicago has hilarious statues and architecture for those that have eyes to see it
That hideous Marilyn Monroe statue has been taken down, thank you very much.
@Pip
Thanks for sharing that honest description of both you and your boyfriend! I love that you appreciate his excellent qualities.
For the record, guys can be very, very obtuse. Particularly guys who have almost no success with women, the very IDEA a woman wants to be with him is…
Well.
What would you do if someone just walked up to you and offered you a million dollars?
Yeah, it’s sort of like that. The idea that someone smiling at you wants to hand you a million dollars doesn’t make much sense, right?
If it’s too scary for a woman to ask a man out directly, she can ask a friend to help. Just ask your friend to talk to the male and say something like
“You know, Sally didn’t want me to blab about this, but she thinks you’re super hot. You should ask her out!”
This method is less scary then directly asking a man out, but it still lets the man know unambiguously that you like him.
@GudEnuf
This is gold. Needs to be stickied or something.
Susan: I believe the eye contact threshold for sexual attraction is three seconds. To be safe, double it. If you stare him down for 6 seconds and he looks away, let it go.
So if I want to know if a woman likes me, all I have to do is make eye contact for six seconds and see if she breaks contact? If so, my life just got a lot easier.
I have never approached a woman in the gym for this very reason.
That sounds like a great suggestion to me. A natural way to start the conversation would be to ask to work in with him on whatever piece of equipment he’s using or ask him to spot you.
Awww, thanks INTJ.
I have had a woman ask me out using this method and I definitely appreciated it. If I know a woman likes me, it’s easy to ask her out because there’s no risk of rejection.
>> “If you google “Ronald McDonald statue fellatio”, you’ll see a few pics of girls pretending to give the Ronald McDonald statue a blowjob.”
Wtf made you think to Google that?????????????????!!!!! :0
>> “Being “friendly” with a guy you like is the kiss of death.”
I actually think that “friendly” is a good place to start. IMO talking is still > than not talking. Just pretend that the dude is one of your guy friends and start up a casual conversation. If the guy’s not interested then you still get to maintain a certain level of plausible deniability. But if he is, then it at least gives him SOMETHING to work with.
My interpretation of the cartoon was that the guy knew exactly what was going on but didn’t like the girl, and his way of rejecting her was acting as if he thought she was talking to the statue. I was surprised when I read that the statue was really a guy in a clown suit. Hahahaha!
@ Emily
When I saw the post this morning, I decided to google “Ronald McDonald bench statue” to make sure that it was the clown in the comic. When I googled it, pics of girls pretending to give the statue a blowjob also popped up.
The internet is a scary place sometimes.
@ Beta Guy
I’m actually really sad the Marilyn Monroe statue was taken down. It was hilarious to take friends to. Also, it was funny just to watch awkward tourists if I was walking by. I’m curious to see what they put up though.
However, if you’ve missed some of the light shows at the bean, those are something you definitely missed out on. Not the best in terms of the actual artistic value and skill, but cool to see the reflections and what they were trying to explore with them.
Anyways, time to go out and see if any women in my small corner of Chicago are able to send out any of these ‘I’m into you’ vibes my way. If not, I’ll be sending some their way instead.
Yeah I though it was a statue of a clown till my husband pointed out the write up in the end. I also think that if the clown was interested he should at least look at her while speaking he was completely out of it or pretending to let him bait. I also resent calling the guy dumb, being clueless about the opposite gender is not being dumb.
@Liza
I could give you line you actually have a lot of things you could use to see if the guy is just not available or shy. I sent the first message to my hubby and I’m very proud that I got out of my comfort zone and end up winning the first prize, I get the feeling that is now how you are going to see it.If you are the type that will forever remember that he didn’t approached first and that will be a problem is better to let go and start crushing on someone else till you find one that approaches. There is no way around it, YMMV.
@Sassy6519
Agreed! Sad and depressing at times as well…
@Emily:
Yes, it’s better to take positive action than no action at all. BUT I have friends who do just that — act friendly with their crush while being too scared to give out any IOIs!
They’re hoping that spending time with the dude in itself will be enough to signal interest, since they’re paranoid about being too “obvious” about their feelings. Doing so feels too scary because then they risk rejection.
The irony is, this is a sure-fire way to make new friend — not a new boyfriend. Without any clear indicators of interest (i.e., perhaps a mix of playful banter, light touches, and extended eye contact) the guy concludes she has no romantic interest in him. He won’t act on any attraction he feels for her since he thinks she just wants to be friends.
I’ve heard many men say that they had no idea their female friends had feelings for them. Often they learn after they starting dating someone. My boyfriend experience this when we first started dating. He was puzzled and asked why women aren’t more straightforward when they’re into guy.
Funny- I took it as the guy not being interested and pretending that he thought the clown was the object of affection. It gave me a bit of a pang- memories of rejections past. I’m an INTJ- very shy by nature, but I’ve been approaching (and getting rejected by) guys since I was sixteen.
But, I came of age in the 80′s and 90′s and my brand of feminism holds that equality means shouldering the responsibilities as well as the rights. My friends and I honestly thought approaching guys was the fair and right thing to do. I didn’t always get rejected, and I got a lot better at it with practice.
What I did notice was that, if a guy was interested, it didn’t take a whole lot of effort on my part. I’m so shy that I’m horrible at the eye contact thing, so I figured there’d have to be some other way for me to show interest. For some strange reason, asking him out for a cup of coffee is much, much easier than holding eye contact for at least 5 seconds (an eternity!!)
True to form, I met my husband because I contacted him first on an online dating site. I really don’t get women’s hesitation to do this. He didn’t live in my area; there was no other way he could have known that I existed. Once I made the first move, he really took the lead. And for the record, most of the guys I asked out were probably on the more dominant side, and they had the confidence to not worry about their masculinity being called into question.
As to Liz’s situation: I don’t see what she has to lose by simply starting a conversation with the guy. If he’s taken, it will give him an opportunity to say so. And once a casual conversation has started, it should be easy for either one of them to ask about getting together without it being a huge deal.
Liza Divisible By Three Said:
“Eye fucking”
____________________________
For all he knows, you’ve got tardive dyskinesia and two glass eyes.
Reach down, grab a hold of your fucking ovaries, and do this:
Follow him to the drinking fountain. When he’s done slurping his water, say,”Hi. What are you working on tonight?”
I guarantee you’ve got to open the door a little wider at the gym. Guys who actually have female friends have heard over and over and over and OVAHR again how much women hate to be bothered at the gym.
Hell, I’m pathological when it comes to hitting on women – and it’s easier for me to flirt at a funeral than at 24 Hour Fitness.
Passer By and Jon brought this up, too, you it’s not just goofy ol’ Dogsquat working his piehole again.
Pip said:
“Doing number 2″
_________________________________
Only works in Germany.
Ladies, consider taking an inventory of your IOIs. Seriously – write down the stuff you do when confronted with a man you wish would hit on you.
Got it? Good.
Here’s two times that got me thinking about women I was attracted to, but hadn’t been considering:
One girl I worked with HUGGED (contact from her chest to knee, with noticeable pelvic goodness) me goodbye, looked into my eyes, looked down, looked back up into my eyes, bit her lip, then let go (took about 4 seconds). As she was walking away, she looked back over her shoulder, caught me checking out her ass, and smiled.
One other woman I worked with found about three excuses in a row to lean over my lap to grab stuff, or show me something about a computer program I was new to. Her boob would drag across my leg each time. She’d also place her boob directly on my upper arm. There was constant eye contact. She also gave me HUGS goodbye, and would linger around at the end of our shift so we could walk out of the hospital together.
Any of you doing all that crap? If so, you’ve done all you could except for ask him out directly. If you’re not in a bar-type setting, you may with to consider ramping it up a bit.
Gudenuf:
There are PUA guides/articles about eye contact/flirting with the eyes. You can check out David Shades eye contact experiment for example.
>> “I guarantee you’ve got to open the door a little wider at the gym. Guys who actually have female friends have heard over and over and over and OVAHR again how much women hate to be bothered at the gym.”
+1 And unless the woman is giving out mad IOIs, this is generally true.
Here’s the thing – if a guy is good at picking up subtle cues it generally means one thing: He’s had a lot of practice, i.e. he is “fluent” in the language. Massive social proof. The odds of his wanting a relationship are probably low, depending on age.
Bingo.
I haven’t heard of many approaches that direct from women
Here are a few successful real life example of female approaches:
1. In public, walks up with dreamy eyes and plants kiss right on the mouth. Then introduces herself.
2. Explains that she is working on getting her driver’s license, but doesn’t know how to drive stick. Then says, “Your car is stick, right? Want to teach me?”
3. Says “you guys have big arms, where do you work out?” Follows that up with expressing her own interest in getting back into the gym and probable need for personal trainer….
4. Grabs tie and pulls until nose-to-nose, making eye contact throughout… but waits to get kissed.
5. Writes down unrequested telephone number, slips it into lapel pocket, and pats chest.
6. Writes down unrequested telephone number and name – very important – and leaves it on receipt.
7. Throws arms around man’s waist in public at party and declares to all and sundry: “I am so completely his! He can do anything he wants to me tonight!”
8. Asks for help finding car leaving party. Upon reaching car, opens back door….
9. Asks in very shy, little girl voice “do you want to fuck me?”
In fairness, it should be mentioned that number 7 was targeting an extraordinarily oblivious man who had been deaf and blind to a series of more conventional indicators of interest. Some spin on number 3 can be particularly effective, because it will usually result in a workout date if there is any interest at all on the man’s part, as well the potential for a lot of physical contact, and without really making the woman feel as if she’s making herself vulnerable.
Obviously, the right approach depends upon the situation and the woman’s goals. But they can all be easily modified… for example, substitute Bible translation for big arms and Bible Study for workout and it’s Christian Girl Game instead of Gym Bunny Game. The key, I think, is for a woman to recognize who is within her SMV range. It may also help to note that on average, men are much gentler about rejecting approaches than women, simply because they know what it feels like.
Yes, exactly. This applies to strangers, btw. Random encounters or first sighting. I’m not sure about the work environment, people you already know, etc.
@Christina
Welcome, and thanks for sharing your own history – that was inspiring! I hear such mixed things about online dating – I have not cracked the code enough to give advice about it. There are lots of great testimonials like yours, but I’ve also known young women go into it, only to spend many hours, go on a bunch of first dates and having nothing to show for it after six months. It can be a weird mix of positive feedback and poor results.
@Dogsquat
Shameless hussies! JK. I remember your telling that full body contact hug story before. I know I’d never have had the ovaries to do either of those things, but I believe you that it was very effective. Just curious, were these women of a “sexually adventurous” disposition?
@Vox
I think 5 and 6 are the easiest for most women – no reason why any woman couldn’t do that, since the rejection would never be overt.
4 gave me tingles. I would think a guy would find that incredibly hot – and eye contact during speed dating has been shown to make a huge difference in attraction levels.
1,7,8 and 9 have a strong “DTF” vibe – I do think women need to be really aware of whether they’re sending out IOIs for short-term vs. long-term mating.
4 gave me tingles. I would think a guy would find that incredibly hot – and eye contact during speed dating has been shown to make a huge difference in attraction levels.
One more thing. If she also says “hi” or something like that, it keeps the close proximity from being too uncomfortable and gives the guy an easy out. If he says “um, hi?”, he’s either not interested or too BETA to be tolerated. Let go, step back, no harm no foul. And if he goes for it, well, then the interest is confirmed.
@VD
It’s really low risk for the woman, because no guy is going to say, “Ew, get away from me.” At the very least, he’ll be flattered. Unless the woman is a beast, but even then the guy would probably say a friendly hi while pulling away.
Metaphor alert:
Power companies have a tool they call the “hot stick”. It’s usually hickory and is kiln-dried. The objective is to have it conduct no electricity at all, and the implement is placed on the end of it, while the lineman is protected from electrocution. From time to time, the company throws a bazillion volts into one end and if more than a tiny trickle comes out the other, they put it in an oven to dry.
Picture a hot stick bedded in a chunk of concrete, sitting on hot, dry sand.
Throw a charged wire over it. The wire–communication–is complete. The electrical charge–the message–does not flow because the intended recipient is not capable of receiving it.
Then picture a steel rod bedded in the water table. Wire thrown, the message/charge flows because the recipient is capable of receiving it.
Difference is, as one commenter said, some guys do not think a woman would be interested in his own sweet self. Some actually think that and feel sorry for themselves, which would follow. For others, the concept is so foreign that they don”t think about it one way or another. The issue simply does not arise.
Having watched this sort of thing back in the day, I would say there is little to no correlation between the ability to receive the message and any obvious value to a woman.
Short of grabbing the shirt front and kicking him in the shin, and, when he eventually looks down, puzzled, saying, “Pay attention to ME!”, it’s hard to say what might be done.
I also say this as one who, in retrospect, was the object of some sledge-hammer IOIs, which I missed altogether. Figured it out twenty years later.
’cause I was the hot stick stuck in concrete.
3. Says “you guys have big arms, where do you work out?” Follows that up with expressing her own interest in getting back into the gym and probable need for personal trainer….
This is the basic plot of many porn movies so it surely should work!
I don’t think 1 has a “DTF” vibe. It’s a little on the aggressive side, but it’s pretty cute.
But we’ve definitely figured out two really good ways to let a guy know you like him. You can ask a friend to let him know, or you can slip in his number. Either way, there’s no risk of direct rejection. The onus is now on him to ask you out.
Liza, there is nothing “masculine” about approaching a man you are attracted to. And there is nothing “feminine” about him not being the one to approach. JUST DO IT!
Susan said:
“I know I’d never have had the ovaries to do either of those things, but I believe you that it was very effective. Just curious, were these women of a “sexually adventurous” disposition?”
__________________________
It was 50/50.
It sounds worse when you read about it – I doubt you’d notice what was going on if you were 10 feet away.
I have an opener I use in a situation like that that I stole from the move, “The Town.” “We seem to be having a staring contest.” Usually, I get a smile and she’ll say something. If she doesn’t say anything I introduce myself and go from there.
Oh, and I’ll add my voice to the chorus of guys who don’t do approaches as the gym for the same reason you’ve already seen. I’m working on overcoming that but I’m not there yet.
In an uncharacteristic departure — who knows, maybe it’ll take, but don’t get your hopes up — I can add something both on the OP topic and potentially constructive.
When trying to understand why/when a man will or won’t take up an opportunity that a woman presents, it’s important to look beyond the question of “does he notice” and think about how me might value — or not value — the particular experience he perceives as being on offer. Any woman hoping for more positive responses would do well to ask herself, “What experience for him, exactly, am I offering here?” (This is closely related to the oft-discussed question on HUS, where anyone should be aware of the answer to the question, “What am I bringing to the table here?”)
Following a typical man’s experience, I think a lot of them might look at some cute girl beckoning from across the room and react by thinking, “Here we go again; yet another chance to run the inevitable gantlet of shit tests, fitness tests, assorted traps, hurdles, and the general ‘one-strike-and-you’re-history’ sword hanging over your head. Yeah, sign me right up. Sorry, it wasn’t worth the effort the last twenty times, and this one isn’t looking any better.”
Fair or not, justified or not, I believe that this well describes the mind-reaction of a goodly number of men in, say, their early 20′s, who’ve had a goodly amount of experience but without so much success — and this reaction is even more likely if the woman is above-average attractive (yes, pretty girls do have it harder). So my advice is: for the woman who’s not like this, who isn’t super picky or super judgmental, and who isn’t going to insist that thread ten perfect needles in a row, you have to find some way to show that you’re not like all the rest. Fair or not, the onus is on you; but fortunately the problem is straightforward once you visualize it.
Unlike the large majority of commenters I don’t usually discuss my direct personal experiences; but here I can offer a tidbit, FWIW, in the story of an approach that worked on me. At a student mixer party I was approached by a girl who looked slightly familiar, and I couldn’t quite place her until she opened with “Hi. I was there when you spoke up at [that meeting], and I thought what you said was really intelligent.” (or words to that effect) She may or may not have been telling the truth (!), but I immediately felt very comfortable since I’d been pre-approved for my speech & personality, to some degree, and so didn’t necessarily have to face a lot of judgement/testing to come. But at the same time the opening didn’t make her seem at all desperate or gushing or even particularly forward, since she presented herself as a peer, having the standing to make a judgment and express an opinion. Plus, it gave us something to talk about right away, while preserving plausible deniability on any immediate amorous intentions. On the whole it was a well-executed maneuver on her part, with an instructive lesson: the woman who wants a positive response is well-advised to find a way to show pre-approval of some aspect of a man’s intellect, personality and speech habits, as this will make the possible future of the encounter more promising and less potentially tiresome.
@ summer
FWIW, the most direct and successful approaches I’ve received have almost all been from INFP’s. Love letters, tackles from behind, cover-eyes kisses, rubbings, gropings, phone numbers unrequested. Not necessarily street-Game, but not hiding away either.
I’m not sure how universal this is, but there’s usually a fair amount of fuzzy dating math in my head at any point during the year. A horse race of potential leads, attractions that are progressing, being pursued, going sour. One, Epecially when things are moving, I’m not inclined to back to square one with a new lead, especially a flimsy one. Two, even If a woman taking initiative doesn’t immediately jump to the head of all that fuzziness, she usually joins the race. She’s a sure option to call on a Friday, some time, maybe.
I also don’t believe that a woman approaching, revealing interest is a dominant move. If anything, she’s showing her cards as the most interested party, giving the man the upper hand. If he can’t keep it from that point, he’d have never kept it. A woman giving a love-letter out of left field isn’t AWOGing a guy.
@Esau
Agreed, that likely has a better success rate and there’s no risk of giving the wrong impression (of promiscuity). Approaching is easier if it’s not a strictly cold, from across the room, first sighting.
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