It turns out that was actually a guy dressed in a clown suit looking for love. But she wasn’t talking to him. So as always, everyone was sad but the dumb guy. -Will
Employing a strategy of Coy Flirtation isn’t the best move in today’s dating and mating environment. While it’s not a guarantee (see above), being direct is the most effective way of showing interest in a man. Promiscuous women are generally quite practiced at this, but women preferring a more traditional approach to sex and relationships may be sending signals too weak to pick up.
Based on societal changes in women’s roles and changes in women’s attitudes toward dating behavior women were expected to be likely to approach men. Additionally, based on prior research examining women’s role in flirting, a significant effect for type of opening line was hypothesized. Opening lines that directly indicate an interest in dating were expected to be perceived as most effective and most direct by both men and women.
Barking Up the Wrong Tree: What’s the best way for a woman to show interest in a man?
{ 236 comments… read them below or add one }
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@Ian
Which confirms what guys always say about rejection – you have no idea what’s going on in the other person’s life. An approach that doesn’t go well doesn’t mean you’re perceived as unattractive or unworthy (though of course it might). It’s just much easier to deal with the risk when you know there are factors that you can’t control, all having to do with the other person’s experience, history, circumstances, etc.
This would apply to someone you know, but there the risk is higher to the one initiating – she will be more likely to interpret the lack of immediate interest as a firm No.
this reminds me of how I met my husband. my college roomie was dating his roomie. I was immediately smitten at first site. I would find all kinds of reasons to go over to their dorm room. “going to the post office, anybody need stamps?” I would have my roomie leave an earring, so I had to go to back and get it for her, etc.. My future hubby was sure I was interested in the 3rd roomie. It was so frustrating. It took 3 weeks of scheming before he finally got the hint and called to stutteringly ask me out.
Lordy, I have never, that I can remember, been approached by a woman in a direct way. Watched a player friend of mine (who women say is hot), get approached and asked to dance at a club. Totally agree with Susan and Jacko about pre 60s and post 60s. We are in the, girls can have it all, stage of history, no?
Where do you approach women? I could be breaking a PUA rule by asking women for advice here, but…
I have no trouble approaching. I’ll even approach beautiful girls 10+ years younger. But I rarely have success. So why bother? Although I’m usually never direct. But I do ask for numbers.
I hear that social circles, not cold approaching, is the best. I’m new in town so this is tougher.
Not sure if this article’s been posted or not, but I found it pretty interesting:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/columnist/vergano/story/2012-05-12/why-women-fall-for-bad-boys/54919824/1
I’ve had women approach me, but it never turned out well. It generally hasn’t resulted in the best relationships. Although the only time this happened directly was in high school. In college, I was approached once, but that was because I was selected as a good pick for one of her friends. “You’re too cute to not be dating somebody. I have a friend you need to date.”
Oddly enough, it’s only Mormons and Catholics who approach me first.
First, I would need to figure out who you were before I considered dating you. I might find you physically attractive, but I need to have a general sense of your psychological makeup, so to speak.
I liked dating people *after* I have some idea of who they are.
@154 Great article Underdog.
@lurker Thanks. I wonder how many people swallowed the red pill after reading that article.
A few red pills here a few there. I was reading over on feministmormonhousewives.org about the fat single Mormon women bemoaning the shallowness of men for not asking them out and wanted to post something but didn’t know where to start. They trotted out the old “these men are all a bunch of 2′s thinking they can get 10′s” and thinking that all these fat women were 10′s. I sympathize with the lack of attention that some women experience but I was blown away by how they thought all men have it so easy.
And they just didn’t realize how much a lot of the less charismatic and less successful guys are invisible to most women. Hypergamy knows no religious boundaries.
Re: Why Women Fall For Bad Boys
Correct me if I’m wrong: scientists just proved that women are attracted to misogynists?
That is the definition of a ‘cad,’ right? A man who acts dishonorably, especially towards women.
Correct me if I’m wrong: scientists just proved that women are attracted to misogynists?
That is the definition of a ‘cad,’ right? A man who acts dishonorably, especially towards women.
I think the article just proof that atractivism is real a woman that finds a man attractive will project in him all sorts of good qualities in order to mate with him if possible is a bit like the net nature of men sexual strategy except that only applies to attractive (aka confident) men not the majority of them, YMMV.
“feministmormonhousewives.org”
Hahahahaha that is the greatest website name ever!
Hahaha… i liked it a lot .. it was nice …
Thanks for sharing ..
Underdog.
That hi/low cycle and its effects on perception has been researched for some time, but not with the projection-to-cads of good qualities, afaik.
Good article. Nor, afaik, has an article on the subject ended with reference to cultural factors and early/late puberty.
Good catch.
Would our view of ev-psych as an explanation change if we considered that individuals are inconvenient but necessary vessels by which genes reproduce themselves?
“That hi/low cycle and its effects on perception has been researched for some time, but not with the projection-to-cads of good qualities, afaik.”
lol yeah
“For themselves, they thought the bad boy would reform and become a good dad just like the first experiment, when they were ovulating. “But not for other women, they could see right through him then,” Durante says.”
The hamster is amazing indeed.
As Susan has said, more or less, the red pill is particularly repulsive to people who would like to believe the best of others.
I suppose guys need game in LTR in order to keep the cads at bay. Including marriage.
@Anacaona
I thought the last example they used twins?
I thought they were making it clear that it was the cad-behavior over the “good dad.”
Ugh. That article is a bit depressing.
So women at the peak of ovulation subconsciously delude themselves about flipping the cad to a dad? I’d like to see how this plays out for older women, closer to menopause and the end of fertility.
And this is why I feel like women need to know MORE about this stuff. Every women should be tracking her ovulation if it can and appears to influence behavior so much.
If I had a monthly cycle that made me less able to filter out “bad” women, you can be damned sure I wouldn’t be anywhere around females on those days! Wasn’t it Sassy that said sometimes she feels like she should lock herself up on those days? Might not be a bad idea across the board. LOL
Passer_By: How about: “Hey, we’ve been eye fucking for a while now. Maybe it’s high time we start progressing toward the real thing.” That oughta get his attention.
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Ha! I am sure that saying this would definitely get his attention but that is not the kind of attention I am seeking at least not right away.
Passer By: You need to understand that men, especially young men, have been bombarded with the feminist message that their advances in places like gyms are unwanted and borderline harrassment. Women complain constantly about getting hit on in gyms and other places where they just want to be able to do what they came there to do. Many men take that to heart to one degree or another. Most who don’t are players, so you are sort of self selecting for players.
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For the most part, I do not like guys hitting on me at the gym and I have never dated anyone there before.
I am not self selecting for players. A guy does not have to be a player because he is expressing interest in a woman he finds attractive in a public setting and wants to get to know her. I think as long as he is being respectful and subtle, when doing so–it’s fine. It is the ones who are rude and obnoxious–those guys really bother me.
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GudEnuf: If it’s too scary for a woman to ask a man out directly, she can ask a friend to help. Just ask your friend to talk to the male and say something like
“You know, Sally didn’t want me to blab about this, but she thinks you’re super hot. You should ask her out!”
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Yes, this is less scary and I good way (not the best, though, he will want to hear it from me) to let him know you are interested without totally putting yourself out there. If he were interested, this would probably prompt him to approach you.
Anacaona: …If you are the type that will forever remember that he didn’t approached first and that will be a problem is better to let go and start crushing on someone else till you find one that approaches. There is no way around it, YMMV.
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I guess I just prefer that the guy approaches me. But more and more, I see I will have to be more forward.
Susan: Let’s come up with some good approach lines for Liza. My first suggestion is:
Your pheromones drew me over here.
—–
You know, I never got the whole thing about pheromones and being attracted to someone based on their scent.
Liz, just slyly pay attention to what exercises he does that you also do, or could do if you wanted. Then go and say, “Excuse me, but I notice that you seem really good at X, I really want to learn it but I am having troubl and I think my form is not right, could you show me how to do it correctly?”
1) You’ve opened, so he now has a chance to engage without initial risk.
2) Your opening is not too direct so if he wants to make it into something more, he has to risk something. This will screen out the hopeless betas whom you say you don’t want. He still has to pursue.
3) Guys like to be know-it-alls. They like to talk about things they understand. Also, they like to help clueless women.
This should work. If it does not, that means either that he is not interested in you or that he is so beta he requires more prompting. If the latter, I would urge you to move on because even if you could land him by being more obvious (and maybe you could), if he is really that beta he will never make you happy and you will just end up breaking his heart.
3) Guys like to be know-it-alls. They like to talk about things they understand. Also, they like to help clueless women.
Not azzactly. There are certain levels of cluelessness which are embarrassing to watch. “Hey, aren’t we all supposed to be at least semi-educated H. Saps here?”
I don’t mind helping women reach something in the supply room, for example. I think supply room stepstools ought to be outlawed. But that’s relative shortness, not cluelessness.
Faking a need to help has to be carefully considered.
Funny! haha! I like the way it was illustrated.. girls should need not to do that thing, it’s obvious! The guy prefer to talk to Ronald McDonald than with her!
Herb: Okay, so you’re having a hard time finding your level of dominance.
How willing are you to try meeting people (not a date or anything, just people) out of your comfort zone? And no, I’m not hitting on you (not my type and I’m in Atlanta).
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I did not think you were hitting on me. It is just that whenever these discussions come up in the blogosphere the woman’s age get used against her somehow.
christina: As to Liz’s situation: I don’t see what she has to lose by simply starting a conversation with the guy. If he’s taken, it will give him an opportunity to say so. And once a casual conversation has started, it should be easy for either one of them to ask about getting together without it being a huge deal.
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Yeah, striking up a casual conversation and asking him questions about himself (men love talking about themselves, they really do).
Follow him to the drinking fountain. When he’s done slurping his water, say,”Hi. What are you working on tonight?”
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I like this as well. It is better than, “what do you do for a living ?”–yawn!
So reach down and grab hold of my fucking ovaries, huh?
Moo Peep Queso: Liza, there is nothing “masculine” about approaching a man you are attracted to. And there is nothing “feminine” about him not being the one to approach. JUST DO IT!
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That is one of my favorite phrases. It is very powerful.
summer: I’ve never directly approached a guy before (and don’t see myself ever doing so), but if I have the stomach for it at the moment I’ll gravitate toward their general vicinity, make small talk with them, ect. This is *extremely* difficult for me as an INFP though, not so much as a woman–at least, that’s what I tell myself, lol.
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If I get up the nerves to approach this guy it will be a first. As an INTJ, I would rather have root canal but attempting it might not be that bad. It is best not to think about the outcome and just be in the moment.
@Ana
I read the article the same way you did.
@Ted
So women at the peak of ovulation subconsciously delude themselves about flipping the cad to a dad? I’d like to see how this plays out for older women, closer to menopause and the end of fertility.
That’s interesting. While I was never a cad chaser, I have always appreciated a good-looking guy, and I am fortunate in that my husband is both a terrific guy and pretty handsome. My sons are great-looking kids, which I think confers an evolutionary advantage. I think that looks are an indicator of overall fitness, and that both men and women are drawn to good-looking members of the opposite sex for that reason. I am however now menopausal, and interestingly what I find attractive has broadened considerably. I find myself less concerned with looks than I used to be. I imagine that, if I were widowed and in the market for a second husband, I would be much more accepting of a less handsome man if he were good to me. And I think that’s because on an unconscious level I’m no longer worried about selecting good genes. I now have the luxury now of looking soley at personal compatibility.
@Liza207
Not at all, but my advice would be different based on age. I have one suggestion I wouldn’t give to a woman under 25 and probably not under 30 because unless I knew her very well because it wouldn’t be appropriate to her level of maturity.
So, in this case your age could be a plus (or a minus, depending on how you look at it).
You still didn’t answer my question, though, actually two…
1. Are you sure you need a high level of dominance?
2. How willing outside your comfort zone are you willing to try?
“For the most part, I do not like guys hitting on me at the gym and I have never dated anyone there before.
I am not self selecting for players. A guy does not have to be a player because he is expressing interest in a woman he finds attractive in a public setting and wants to get to know her. I think as long as he is being respectful and subtle, when doing so–it’s fine. It is the ones who are rude and obnoxious–those guys really bother me.”
This response is contradictory. No wonder it is better for men to not bother with asking women out in most situations.
If most men should not ask women out in gyms and you have never dated one from a gym, it is 100% guaranteed that in the very rare chance that when he asked you out, he will be rejected. He would have to overcome your routine dislike of guys hitting on you and your inexperience with dating guys from the gym.
You also mention that guys who do ask you out are rude and obnoxious. I’m sure it is nice to be asked out by guys who are ATTRACTIVE and RESPECTFUL and SUBTLE. I’m sure he is Tom Brady who doesn’t have to do a thing to get your attention. Some guys who behave badly just don’t know how to do it. On the other hand, maybe they know so it is part of their pick-up game. The thing is you perceived them as rude and obnoxious because they are unattractive. They are not Tom Brady.
I guess the thing I’m trying to say is get used to not being asked. The worse thing that can happen to you is “you” ask him out and he rejects you.
@Liza207
Projection. I at least would actually prefer to hear from someone other than the girl, so that if I don’t like her I don’t have to reject her directly.
@John
I’d never considered that. It’s actually a good option to consider if all else fails.
J – “And I think that’s because on an unconscious level I’m no longer worried about selecting good genes. I now have the luxury now of looking soley at personal compatibility.”
Well this can be good and bad. On the bad side, it seems that the chances of marrying someone when you are young based more on genes than compatibility are higher than when you are older, which may be part of why divorce is so high these days. (marry the better genes when young, have kids, realize he isn’t someone you really want to spend your life with personality wise, eject…) and, to an extent, it is a bit of a blow to the more good looking guys out there. After all, they may only be getting so much “play” because they look like they have good genes, but as a person they may suck royally. Of course, if a man’s goal is to get lots of sex from lots of women, this is an ideal setup.
On the good side, if you can make it through the younger years with your marriage intact and reasonably healthy, there is perhaps less chance that a wife will stray as long as she continues to be happy with her husband due to any “hypergamy” type issues.
In my own experience I can see this in action. I’ve known since my son was born that I didn’t want any more children. When my ex and I split, I did indeed have a bit of a different outlook in terms of women I found attractive in that I didn’t care so much about age and fitness, and was really more interested in finding someone I was compatible with. (after the last few years of my marriage, compatibility is my primary “concern” right after “actively participates and enjoys sex with me”.) Don’t get me wrong, I still ended up with a woman I find highly attractive. But I certainly was NOT looking for a woman to bear my children. She only had to be decent to the children I already have, and thankfully that wasn’t so hard to find.
Are you sure you need a high level of dominance?
Herb,
No, not high levels. I just want a man that is decisive and can take charge when the situation calls for it. Very few women I know want to wear the pants in the relationship, we want to feminine at all time with our man. I want to able to know that if I hand over the reins (I have been making all the decisions in my life for a very long time, and at some point I do want to hand over the steering wheel) he will make the best decision for us both (most times). It would be very frustrating for me if I felt I could not rely on my spouse to make sound decisions. Or I have to keep reminding him of his role in the relationship (nagging is not my thing). I have seen relationships like this and they are almost akin to a mother/son relationship or the roles appear to be reversed. I say, no wonder women in those relationships quickly lose interest in having sex and become bored and want out.
It is awful to have your femininity practically robbed from you by some feminized man. This is my nightmare.
Would our view of ev-psych as an explanation change if we considered that individuals are inconvenient but necessary vessels by which genes reproduce themselves?
I remember the X-Files episode about a deformed family that kinds of uses incest to continue their blood line (ewww) and Scully said something along the lines that maybe we are just puppets of our genes pushing to survive no matter what. It was a chilling though and I do think we are more than that (heart, body and soul) but I do wonder if this is distributed differently among individuals and the people that go crazy to go bang the worst individuals of our species, no matter the risks have a stronger impulse of passing the genes over personal content…just thinking out loud.
If I had a monthly cycle that made me less able to filter out “bad” women, you can be damned sure I wouldn’t be anywhere around females on those days! Wasn’t it Sassy that said sometimes she feels like she should lock herself up on those days? Might not be a bad idea across the board. LOL
Well many of this women are on the pill so they are not ovulating and I don’t think women know their biological clock so much remember when in doubt women pick what “feels” right they don’t have the impulse to chart every and make everything into formulas and numbers for them is just something that happens they won’t try to know how or why at least not the majority. I do find funny that we could consider ovulation like having a werewolf curse, we should like them better than vampires. I guess no ancient woman would consider their bodies natural functions a curse.
@ Ted D
Haha, yeah, that was me.
I chart my cycle, and I know exactly what is happening on any given day. I know when I’m ovulating, so I act accordingly by putting myself on a tight leash of sorts.
I may feel it more intensely than a good portion of women because I don’t take hormonal birth control.
@Liza207
Okay, I bolded that for a reason. That to me defines a pretty high level of dominance: wanting him to be the sole decision maker in the relationship is a pretty high level of submission, especially in this day and age. Finding guys that want that will be hard. Finding them ready to do the work will be even harder.
That said, I’d like to ask the ladies who openly want dominance. Is the part I bolded what you would call dominance or high dominance.
@Ana
I think some people are driven more by their genes than others. Social programming counter to genes and self-awareness both determine who is in what bucket.
I think a lot of what the ‘sphere and HUS discusses is the byproduct of the former being severely restricted today in the West and the later being out of fashion.
I think the later is normally pretty rare (although I think the West today does the best the West had done in years) which is why strong social controls evolved.
@Ted
On the bad side, it seems that the chances of marrying someone when you are young based more on genes than compatibility are higher than when you are older, which may be part of why divorce is so high these days.
I’m sure that’s a factor. The person with the best genes isn’t necessarily the nicest. But here’s condrundrum. The absolute sweetest man I know is over 50, has a mild disability that is hereditary, childless, divorced and living with his mom. He has a crush on me, which is silly, but I like him enough to try to fix him up with women of his own SMP. He’d like someone “hotter” and young enough to bear children. There’s no woman under 35 that I could fix him up with because no one wants to take avhance on his bad genes. No one I know has that bad a case of baby rabies. It’s sad but true.
(marry the better genes when young, have kids, realize he isn’t someone you really want to spend your life with personality wise, eject…) and, to an extent, it is a bit of a blow to the more good looking guys out there. After all, they may only be getting so much “play” because they look like they have good genes, but as a person they may suck royally.
The downside of alpha!
On the good side, if you can make it through the younger years with your marriage intact and reasonably healthy, there is perhaps less chance that a wife will stray as long as she continues to be happy with her husband due to any “hypergamy” type issues.
Well, I think a real measure of character and compatibility for both men and women is if a marriage makes it after the kids are gone. It’s not just the “hypergamy.” I know a few men who are very happily divorced and grateful to be free of marriages that simply have run their course. DH and I are in the rare position of having maintained the friendship of a divorced couple. Usually one or another of the divorced spouses get “custody” of a complete married couple, but in this case I have my “girl” and he has his “boy.” That way, DH and I both get status updates on each member of the divorced couple. Both seem rather disgustingly happy.
Don’t get me wrong, I still ended up with a woman I find highly attractive.
Yeah, I don’t sexual atractiveness becomes completely unimportant. It’s just not AS important as it once was. I doubt I’d go after ogres if I were single, but I’d value warmth over looks.
Expecting high dominance with the same expectation of sound decisions is contradictory. Dominance is personality. The making of sound decisions relies on other personality traits that are less dominant like prudence (reason) and reliability.
What women want really isn’t what they want. A guy who is naturally dominant and rich has all the leeway to make bad decisions. He can afford to make them right. A woman who craves dominance is looking for a cat.
You people…
1) On the joke: the “write up” at the end is a mix of “explaining the joke” and “comically missing the point”. The title tells you everything you need to know: The guy thinks so little of himself, he thought a girl was more interested in a statue. Another example of this would be the mouseover text of this Dr McNinja: http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/15p44/. The “we” obviously means the sentient motorbike Doc is riding, not the refrigerator. (look, it makes sense in context… I think)
2)
Depends on a lot of things. Wrong approach, ‘bam’ you’re fired for sexual harassment. And that’s just one example where a vindictive woman can ruin a man’s life. (need we bring up the elevator guy incident? at least he got lucky and was kept anonymous) See also: http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2010/10/15/creep-noh/
http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2010/10/09/why-cant-he-just-make-a-move-noh/
3)
How about the most alluring words of all time? “Can you help me with something?”
Vox,
“It may also help to note that on average, men are much gentler about rejecting approaches than women, simply because they know what it feels like.”
This is a key difference. It is very rare for a man to make a woman feel bad or a creep unless she’s really out-of-order (drunkenly groping, causing a scene, not taking no for an answer, etc). Men are generally flattered by women’s interest, as it’s a far rarer experience for almost all men than almost all women. Good thing for women to bear in mind.
This response is contradictory. No wonder it is better for men to not bother with asking women out in most situations.
Jonny,
No it is not. I just did not explain. If a woman is showing you interest at the gym and you respond you are not hitting on her because your attention is welcomed. I have never dated a guy at my gym because I was never interested enough to do so. I have had quite a few guys approach me at my gym but they were often aggressive and obnoxious so I wasn’t interested.
I have witnessed quite a few bold women who have used opener that Escoffier suggested I use and some others that were suggested here.
Another thing, I often wonder if men have a clue as to when a woman is showing him interest these days.
“Another thing, I often wonder if men have a clue as to when a woman is showing him interest these days.”
No, because usually women show their nice faces. They are afraid to tell them the truth of their disinterest because they are nice.
If they are interested, they must overcome their nice face by giving them stronger signals.
A woman who craves dominance is looking for a cat.
—
This is actually sad commentary on men. It seems men have basically given up. I guess it will be me and my cat. I would rather go it alone right into spinsterdom than the alternative.
Richard Aubrey,
Like the ‘hot stick’ analogy, & yes, I’ve had that feeling a bunch of times too when realizing what clear pathways I’d missed.
@Liza207
OMG. Making eye contact and smiling is NOT showing interest.
How could we have a clue as to when a woman is showing interest when you women choose to be so ridiculously subtle about it?
Lisa,
There’s plenty of very masculine men that simply don’t want to be hit with a restraining order, or a false rape charge, or a sexual harassment claim, or be publicly humiliated in public when they crash and burn, & hear you tell all your friends what a creep they are. And also there are plenty of very masculine men that just don’t want to make you feel uncomfortable with their attentions when they’ve been told every day of their lives that a ‘real man’ doesn’t do that.
I don’t think you’re correct in thinking their justifiable caution necessarily indicates a person’s behaviour inside of a relationship, especially if you make it clear early on how you like it.
I used to be spectacle about socialization and how it affected gender roles. But is has become quite clear to me that it is very affective. It appears that many men have lost touch with their natural male instincts. It has been socialized out of you, apparently (I think Susan should do a post on this). Men are supposed to able to instinctually pick on subtle cues from women when we are exhibiting romantic interest. Women are still able to do this when it comes to men.
Okay then, tell me, what men are looking for from a woman to show them that she is interested?
@187 I agree. I’m always nice to women who approach. This is what I like about texting and Face, it’s easy to just fade out. It’s also polite, in my opinion. I prefer a woman do that to me also. If she doesn’t respond to a text or email, that’s it, over. I don’t really need an explanation. I understand there’s a million reasons why someone fades out.
.
Face to face rejection on the other hand, not into it! I do take it personally as much I shouldn’t. My success rate in regard to engaging women is very high. I attribute that to the fact that I don’t take rejection well, and I typically only engage women who have shown some kind of interest. My skills for reading this have been fine tuned. I did trip up at a high end lounge a couple months ago, and it scarred my brain! An attractive woman was with two other women and she was flirting with me across the room. We closed the place and as the other two women went to the bathroom, the flirty one walked to the entrance and waited. I was on my way out, walked up to her and said whatever, something like ‘hi’. She took a deep breath, and stared over my shoulder as if I werent there. It was the creepiest rejection I ever encountered. Still scarred by it. For her, and me. But I must say, it worked. I walked away within 3 seconds. I don’t recommend it to you ladies if you’re not into the creepy factor. But, if you want to deflect a guy immediately, it works.
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About the gym girl situation. Tough one. I say don’t escalate it any further. I have the eye fucking thing going on with a number of women at my gym and they must think I’m gay by now. I engage them in small talk, nothing more. I find them attractive, but I see them everyday. If I don’t feel they are marriage material, I don’t want to start something that I think will end abruptly, and have to see them daily. I see people who started dating from the gym, then broke up. Now they go to the gym at different times, whereas they used to always go at the same time. Also, every gym has ‘that girl’. The aggressive, guy stalker type. You don’t want to come across as that girl. I can think of one that I avoid like the plague. He probably doesn’t want to escalate things with you. As any gym rat knows, there are LOTS of opportunities to engage people in conversation. You inevitably run into someone at the fountain, check-in, parking lot, you grab for the same dumbell, waiting for the same machine, they drop their towel, etc. I say wait for a machine he’s using so you can work in, nice smile, and small talk, nothing more. He’ll bite if interested.
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I don’t really like women to approach me in general, but I do like a not so sublte invitation to approach her. A little off subject, but my friends and I have a thing we call ‘kid face’. Whenever a really attractive girl is aggressive, we assume she has children. Saturday, I had this Meg Ryan movie moment at the mall. I was walking behind this woman and she quickly turned around to walk in the opposite direction as if she suddenly remembered something. We literally smacked into one another, smiled, took two steps, both looked back, and told her ‘ok, come here’. (People love to be told what to do. My friends love my ole ‘two finger, come hither”. I don’t think one woman has ever rejected the two finger, even if it was to walk over and say ‘fuck off’). Anyway, she walked over and we talked for a minute. I was thinking she was way too good looking to be so friendly. I asked if she has kids, and she has one. I told her I thought she was very pretty, and good luck. Guys, if you’re not interested in dating single moms, ask them right away if they have kids. I do it within minutes, and the women seem to really respect the directness, and the fact that there is no time wasting. Let’s face it, I didn’t want to talk to her to be friends.
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A little off topic, my mind was wandering.
@Liza207
No we aren’t. It’s pretty universal across cultures that men are much worse than women at reading nonverbal signals. It’s also the case at least in the West that women refuse to give out any verbal signals, and try to make their nonverbal signals as subtle and hard to read as possible.
Trying to open a conversation with the guy, entering his personal space (this is big, as it distinguishes between friendly and romantic interest), touching (non-sexual, like tap on the arm or something), compliments, attempts to play up her attractiveness (playing with her hair, adjusting her top, etc.), casually mentioning that she’s single, and if all else fails giving him her phone number.
I meant: I used to be SKEPTICAL about socialization and how it affected gender roles.
Liza, two thoughts:
1) The cutlure has more or less burnt subtlety at the stake. You seem to have this idea that 1950s courtship rituals ought to work among 2012 men and women. I rather like reading about old fashioned courtship rituals myself but the fact is the only work when you have old fashioned people. We don’t any more so it ‘s rather self-defeating for you to wish that men would read your cues and woo you like it’s 1955.
2) I think even then you underestimate the % of men who are just naturally bold or perceptive like that. Go back and read some old books or see some old movies. You will see how, even pre-Sexual Revolution, women often had to use subterfuge to get men to make a move. Meaning, women were the ones often making the first move covertly, in order to entice the man to make the first overt move (which was really the second move). That little subterfuge served a number of purposes, not least it let the man feel brave even as the woman had already removed some of the risk, and it satisfied the woman’s desire for a man of action.
darn it, meant OVERESTIMATE.
I think liza is being reasonable here. I’ve seen low-dominance marriages where the guy just wants a Mom with benefits. It’s pretty weak, and not unreadonable to ask for better. The guy is “eyefucking” her, not just being polite and similng – but not making a move.
IMO, he is enjoying the fun, but not moving because he doesn’t want to a) cheat on his GF or b) risk a blowout in a place that you both will be at in the future, or c) treating the gym as a professional/asexual zone, just like workplaces.
@Liza
“Men are supposed to able to instinctually pick on subtle cues from women when we are exhibiting romantic interest.”
I’m in agreement with Escoffier. I think you may be overestimating this.
Take a look at This Is Jens’ comment about how clueless her husband was to her interest. She had to make silly excuses to position herself for him to notice her interest, which from the sounds of it took a while.
I also think that is part of the cartoon above, the girl literally had a direct approach, and the guy STILL assumed she must be into the other guy. (similarly to This is Jens’ husband assuming she was interested in the 3rd roommate)
“I used to be spectacle about socialization and how it affected gender roles. But is has become quite clear to me that it is very affective. It appears that many men have lost touch with their natural male instincts. It has been socialized out of you, apparently (I think Susan should do a post on this). Men are supposed to able to instinctually pick on subtle cues from women when we are exhibiting romantic interest. Women are still able to do this when it comes to men.”
BLAH BLAH BLAH, so what? Even if I agree with you, it doesn’t change the situation. You’re left where you are. You still need to attract a man and there’s nothing you’re doing to change the situation.
Susan has already done plenty of posts about this. “Game” is how Beta men are applying the Alpha rules of attraction. This confirms that not only should more Beta men behave like Alpha men, it works, and women expect it.
However, in your case, it might not be working as well as you expect. For the rare guy that does it, he is considered rude and obnoxious. Maybe he is doing it wrong, but you cannot say he hasn’t tried.
“Okay then, tell me, what men are looking for from a woman to show them that she is interested?”
Talk to him. Linger. Compliment him. Invite him for an after gym break at a nearby yogurt shop. Touch his forearm or bicep. Or send a wing woman.
“Talk to him. Linger. Compliment him. Invite him for an after gym break at a nearby yogurt shop. Touch his forearm or bicep. Or send a wing woman.”
aka make the first move, however subtle is your decision.
@OffTheCuff “I think liza is being reasonable here. I’ve seen low-dominance marriages where the guy just wants a Mom with benefits. It’s pretty weak, and not unreadonable to ask for better. The guy is “eyefucking” her, not just being polite and similng – but not making a move.”
Sometimes the guy is not dominate. What Liza wants is the opposite. It is not to say one is better than the other. It is what this person prefers. If Liza want to attract the dominate person, she needs to dial down her own dominance. This will be difficult since she sounds like the controlling one and has clear preferences. If I was more dominant, I would reject her.
Dominance isn’t always about one being more in charge than the other. The other has to allow this person to be in charge. You can’t backseat drive. You have to let the other person drive from the beginning. She can’t undermine him at every opportunity and expect the relationship to last. The relationship pattern has to exist from the beginning.
As for “eyefucking”, maybe he has something in his eye. There is plausible deniability in this. You can’t built a relationship from nothing. There is nothing.
cooper.
Back in the day, if a woman had touched my bicep, I’d have figured she was trying to see if I was a prospect to lift something for her, something real heavy.
There are quality guys who really don’t know they’re quality to women. They may think they’re good at whatever they’re doing, reliable and competent in emergencies, good company, socialize well with women, keep a conversation going, generous, sometimes are seen taking care of Very Serious Business after the SHTF (sometimes right in front of said woman/women) including possibly fighting and figure they are the sum of their reasonably laudable parts. But interesting to women? Huh? If somebody had given me a granite slab with the Truth on it notarized by fourteen archangels, or however many there are, I’d have figured the archangels have rotten senses of humor.
Me? You’re kidding.
I missed stuff that makes what y
So, since I can’t be the only one, the question arises, how do you tell that guy from other possibilities and what do you do about it?
Jonny’s last graf includes stuff that makes what I missed seem like, as I said before, a sledgehammer.
Liza, you don’t have to listen to the guys here if you are skeptical, but they are right. Girls do better with direct, and research backs this.
http://www.bakadesuyo.com/whats-the-best-way-for-a-woman-to-show-intere
My go-to line has always been “what’s your screen name / email address?”
Re: the direct approach. I would use with caution.
1) Liza has owned up to being more than a bit beta-phobic. So if she just boldly asks the guy out and it works, that will only reinforce in her mind his betatude. He did not pursue her, she had to pursue him. She took all the risk, he took none. No dominance there. Gets the relationship, should one start, off on the wrong foot.
2) If he’s not interested, he’s really on the spot. I agree with those guys who said we don’t want to be in that position. Strong chance he will agree to the coffee date or whatever just because he thinks it would be mean to say no, and it’s only coffee, right? Then before he knows it he’s knee deep in the ditch with no plan for getting out. As much as getting turned down outright would hurt Liza’s feelings, having him agree to a date or two and them bail would hurt more.
I still think my suggestion would work. It’s appropriate to the venue. Gives her plausible deniability. Gives him a wide open door. Gives her some influence of how the interaction goes (i.e., chances to flirt and steer things in the right direction). Low risk. If he’s really not interested, then he explains the exercise and says “Ok, nice to meet you, I’ve got to finish my workout.” Liza will be a little sad but not truly embarassed. Whereas, “No, sorry, I don’t want to have coffee with you” can cut quite deep.
As for “eyefucking”, maybe he has something in his eye. There is plausible deniability in this. You can’t built a relationship from nothing. There is nothing.
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You’re right there is nothing. We have yet to say a word to each other.
OfftheCuff: I think liza is being reasonable here. I’ve seen low-dominance marriages where the guy just wants a Mom with benefits. It’s pretty weak, and not unreadonable to ask for better.
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Those unions are just plain sad.
Hope,
Yes, I read tthe study on Friday. It is saying that in this day and age women are expected to approach more than men. At least, that is how I read it.
Liza, the first part should just be getting friendly. That’s how it started with my husband. I had no firm interest, just an inkling, as in, “this person is interesting, and I’d like to know him better.” So I asked for his personal contact to talk to him one-on-one. It wasn’t like “I want to have sex with him now!”
I think guys can see and receive the “get to know better” interest, and will act accordingly and take over the role of the one chasing you and demonstrating who they are. Plus it doesn’t come off as too aggressive/dominant and has plenty of plausible deniability.
You don’t skip from A straight to Z. You go through the intermediate steps and see what the “potential” holds.
By the way, if I hadn’t asked for his info, he probably would not have made a move on me, and the whole thing would have either taken a lot longer, fizzled out or never happened. You have to strike while the iron is hot, which is in that initial period of just meeting someone new, about a few weeks.
So if you see potential, get yourself positioned to evaluate the potential, which means talking to the guy. If you don’t talk to him, it’ll never happen. And 99.9999999% of the time, the guy isn’t going to make the move to ask for contact information/give it out to you without you asking. He might look at you, or ask you about something mundane, or just silently think “what if.”
This just happened at lunch. We were at a group lunch, and a coworker female who noticed the single coworker guy checking out the waitress said he should write his number down. He said that the waitress was cute, but he didn’t want to write down his number on the receipt. He said it would be too weird. Good guys don’t make moves on total strangers. Case in point. :]
Haha! That would be a great gag in a film.
P.S. I wouldn’t know how to eyefuck. Is it just a long stare or is there some other action required? Like an intermittent squint? Or winking?
@Escoffier
Then she needs to look for dates in places where high dominance, relationship oriented men look for dates.
That place in this day and age is not the gym.
@Richard
I can be oblivious to IOIs. I literally have to be consciously looking or else I won’t pick up on the now obvious signals.
It seems that in today’s SMP, everyone is fighting to maintain the frame of Least Interest.
I can remember back in the days of High-School parties, I hadn’t realized this girl had even an iota of interest until she’d pulled me to the side and our lips had locked.
I’m not sure what it says about me, but I simply don’t pick up on nonverbal signals, and I can’t catch a innuendo to save my life. It something about the uncertainty – the question of whether or not something is actually there – I don’t just don’t waste any thought of what may very well not be even exist.
So to women, I say be overt as you can. I’m not going think of you as too masculine or too dominant – there’s obviously way sto approach while maintaining any frame you wish. (ie feminine or submissive)
But any nonverbal signal is going to go right over my head – or at least I’m going to let it.
>> “I wouldn’t know how to eyefuck. Is it just a long stare or is there some other action required? Like an intermittent squint? Or winking?”
It seems like one of those things that could be easily interpreted as “creepy”.
Cooper. “non verbal”? How about, “you have very attractive eyes”. So I figured, next time I shaved, I’d look to see what she was talking about. The rest were more obvious.
@186 Nate Winchester
“The guy thinks so little of himself, he thought a girl was more interested in a statue.”
That’s it exactly. I have actually been this guy in real life (but without Ronald McDonald being present).
@205 Richard
“Back in the day, if a woman had touched my bicep, I’d have figured she was trying to see if I was a prospect to lift something for her, something real heavy.”
LOL
@216 Emily
“Creepy” is a word that men almost never use to describe women. Crazy, maybe; but not creepy.
@218 MPQ
Ha! That actually happened to me in 7th-grade gym class. I was playing ping pong, and suddenly I got goosed from behind by this girl who had, um, a “reputation”. Scared the heck out of me.
Gosh, I really don’t know how to tell a guy straight up that I like him. I let actions speak for itself instead.
Good advice from Hope.
Marc,
“I don’t want to start something that I think will end abruptly, and have to see them daily. ”
God, I know that feeling.
Another thing that needs pointing out is that men’s sex drive, being innately so much more constant & overwhelming than women’s means that pretty much all men – with the exception of some dictators of third-world countries – have to spend their days second-guessing their own desires & policing themselves constantly from receiving the wrong impression, just to stop themselves from bending every third girl they see over a car bonnet & fucking the shit out of them.
If we all could do that… well, that would be heaven, obviously, but all societies, without exception, strongly disapprove of such behaviour, & there are life-ruining – or even ending – consequences for any man who acts like that without thinking. Even before feminism this was the case.
Women, of course, have their own reasons for caution, primarily centered around the repercussions of pregnancy. But men have that fear too, & a whole bunch of other ones on top. A woman is never going to be locked up for 16 years for getting the wrong end of the eyefucking stick, or beaten to death by an angry sister/girlfriend/wife for approaching her brother/boyfriend/man. Even without those life-or-death fears, all men know they run the risk of getting trapped into a relationship with a woman who is going to expect a whole lot more, when all they’re thinking is she has a nice ass. We’re just so easily led when the little head does the thinking.
What this means is that men are daily looking for reasons to disbelieve their own senses in regard to signals they constantly receive – or feel they receive – from the women they see all around. It isn’t necessarily that men don’t pick up on your signals, it’s just that they have trained themselves to doubt their natural instincts on this every step of the way, just in order to survive.
Heavy, I know, but true. Life isn’t a rom-com.
I guess that helps explain the cartoon, too.
“I wouldn’t know how to eyefuck. Is it just a long stare or is there some other action required? Like an intermittent squint? Or winking?”
It seems like one of those things that could be easily interpreted as “creepy”.
—–
Intense steering directly into each other eyes while they are locked. It feels like we are both slowly undressing each other but with our eyes, of course. He has beautiful baby blues too.
It is not creepy if the two people doing it are really attracted to one another or into it.
I have had guys attempt to EF me in public and it was uncomfortable and creepy because I was interested or attracted to them.
You can find love anyway at any time. I would rather not find it in a bar.
Liza, are you in Manhattan?
About disliking betas:
I do not have anything against them. I do not find much wrong with them. They tend to be pretty solid guys with good values. Most of the men that are husbands and fathers are beta. I have quite few beta men in my family and they are wonderful family men but they also possess some dominate traits. I believe the men that are being described in the manosphere are actually desperate omegas and gammas. The man (the ones in mother/son or role reversed relationships) I was referring to when Herb, asked about how much dominance I required from a man was most likely an omega or a gamma (now, I really dislike them). Most beta men tend to prefer a more egalitarian relationship model. That is fine with me too, as long as he knows that he has to take up a bit more than 50% of the responsibilities and decision-making.
In my opinion, the men that are being described in the blogosphere are not beta males. Yes, many of them are a bit more unassuming than alpha males (who are absolutely bad bets for marriage and they do not make particularly good family men). I do not get why there is so much distain for betas when the men that really deserve it are alphas, omegas, gammas and so on. Betas are men that are far more admirable. Unfortunately, they do often get the shitty end of the stick.
Liza, are you in Manhattan?
Yes.
Well, it’s fairly brutal here. I am half joking but have you thought about moving?
Well, it’s fairly brutal here. I am half joking but have you thought about moving?
Yes, many times.
@Liza207
It seems to me all you need to do is add the one-finger “come here” gesture to the eye fucking. It’s not much of a leap if you’re already holding eye contact for that long.
Liza, please try what I suggested and report back. I am 99% sure it will work.
Susan,
It has gone on long enough.
Escoffier,
Will do.
“I really don’t get it.”
As if.
Here’s a socially acceptable way to describe the epidemic.
“2) If he’s not interested, he’s really on the spot. I agree with those guys who said we don’t want to be in that position. Strong chance he will agree to the coffee date or whatever just because he thinks it would be mean to say no, and it’s only coffee, right? Then before he knows it he’s knee deep in the ditch with no plan for getting out. As much as getting turned down outright would hurt Liza’s feelings, having him agree to a date or two and them bail would hurt more.”
Are you serious?
I’ve heard about the “I gotta accept or they’re gonna be so hurt!” meme from feminists, about reasons why women don’t reject men overtly, and how this is a distinctly female problem that men couldn’t ever experience, them presumably being used to being direct and uncaring.
Personally, I go with Hope in how I work. I got to know you personally for a while. No way I can gauge you in a single day, even less a moment of less than 30 minutes just once. And from afar? Gimme a break.
I have to talk with you, as an acquaintance or someone I meet often, for a few weeks to months, and then I can fairly predict that I’ve seen the potential red flags and filtered the cads and chasers.
Who’ll get will be more dominant than me. I’m just not dominant, not even backseat dominant. Anyone WOULD be more dominant by definition. So, I filter a lot more for compatibility than dominance.
I still make my own decisions. Not doing so is not the mark of a submissive, it’s the mark of a child (as in the opposite of an adult). I do have a problem standing up for myself when it means stepping on someone else’s toes (for example, pushing someone’s shopping cart off when I should have access to the packing area in a grocery shop, instead of waiting until they clear the way, 2 minutes later – I just won’t do it). So I’m pretty socially submissive, even as I’m assertive in the face of an injustice.
This article is correct that women should be more demonstrative in their interest towards a (beta) male. I noticed that women are much more timid in their signals to beta males. They are quite flirtatious with alpha males even when it leads to nothing.
Only in hindsight do I notice weak signals of interest. A woman is usually quite friendly with me until I notice erratic changes in her behavior, like frustration, impatience, and avoidance. Only afterwards do I realize that I did not perform according to the context and her expectations, leading to embarrassment and shame. For example, I recently walked with a female acquaintance as I was on my way home. When I parted with her midway–she lived in the same direction–she looked upset and was chilly towards me the next day. Now that I remember our conversation, which was both humorous and risqué, I could see there being an expectation which was not understood to me. Perhaps, I sent her the wrong message. She understands my personality a little better now and her congeniality has resumed.
I can only remember one woman who was quite forward in her interest. She batted her eyes in my direction at a club and I responded immediately to her interest. I bought her a drink and we had a nice conversation about her aspirations. She gave me a kiss on the cheek and that was the last I saw of her. I prefer this directness.
The previous weekend at an Irish pub, I asked another female acquaintance about the kind of man she wanted to marry. She couldn’t point out anyone similar to her type in the pub. She merely said that they had to have a great smile. Later that night, in the middle of a heated political conversation, she leaned forward and told me that I had a great smile. I hesitated for a few seconds and then I resumed the debate. This was an incredible subtle and ill timed signal of interest, if it was one. I treated it as an anomaly, and she didn’t punish me for it too much. Later that night, her drunk friend, who was there without her spouse, kept rubbing her thighs against my thighs under the bar table. I figured that she had lost all feeling in her legs and did not know where to place them. But then she kept telling me (the whole night) that she was drunk. She wanted me to do something. But what??? I told her to drink some water to avoid dehydration. She ignored me for the rest of the night. I had annoyed her in some way. Did she want me to take the advantage in her intoxicated state?
What strange creatures women are. I can somewhat figure out what is in their head and yet I can’t wrap my arm around it… literally. I am smart, but not smart with women. These subtleties are an overestimation of my abilities. If I were a caveman, I think they would give me a fair chance at deciphering their signals.
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