Spoiler alert: Girls, Episode 5, Hard Being Easy
As a studious observer of the human heart, trusted keeper of stories and secrets, maker of lessons, experienced practitioner of temptation and seduction, and eager student of maleness in all its forms, I’m ashamed to admit I’ve been utterly duped, deceived, swindled, fooled, hookwinked, bamboozled, deluded and beguiled by a cad. I’m 55, and I’m still making rookie mistakes.
I really thought Adam was starting to feel something for Hannah. I didn’t listen to the guys here. They called it easily: Adam is stringing Hannah along, he doesn’t give a shit.
“But no!” I thought. Actions speak louder than words! Hannah told him she really cares about him, she told him she wanted to stop seeing him because it feels so shitty that he doesn’t care, and he pulled her in for a passionate kiss. Surely not even a guy as self-indulgent as Adam would look at those tear-filled eyes and see one more opportunity to get laid! I wish.
The day after their most recent hookup, Hannah shares her good news with Jessa:
Hannah: I have a boyfriend.
Jessa: Who?
Hannah: Adam. I told him everything, how he was torturing me, how sad I was, and he responded in such a lovely way…he like kissed me and kissed me and kissed me and he said, “Be who you are” and he touched my face and like we’re basically together now.
Later that same day, Hannah drops by Adam’s apartment unannounced, as usual. (A necessity when your “boyfriend” doesn’t answer your texts or calls, I suppose.) Also as usual, Adam is shirtless, displaying his pale squishy torso, ew. I don’t believe we’ve ever seen this guy in a shirt. Hannah comes up from behind and rubs against him.
Adam: What are you doing?
Hannah: What does it look like I’m doing?
Adam: You shouldn’t do that.
Hannah: Why?
Adam: Because we like said we wouldn’t or whatever.
Hannah: We did?
Adam: Uh, yah! You did.
Hannah: When did I say that?
Adam: Yesterday. You told me everything you want out of a relationship and all the ways I was fucking you up.
Hannah: Yeah, but then you kissed me.
Adam: You looked sad.
Hannah: Then we had sex.
Adam: Because we were kissing.
This is the part where women start screaming, “Dick! Douche! Asshole!” In hindsight, it’s clear that Hannah projected her own sense of empathy onto Adam. Big mistake. She also rationalized all of his previous behavior and chose to focus on what appeared to be a slight shift in the dynamic, a change for the better, a flipping of the player. In other words, Hannah was an idiot. But how could I be such an idiot?
My theory is that there is something hardwired in women. We want to nurture that which cries out for nurturing. We want to believe that when a man stares into our eyes, cups our face in his hands, and says something that sounds profound, he is having the same emotional experience that we are.
My thought process went something like this:
Adam is so disconnected, so heartless, such a dick! Hannah is such an idiot, I can’t stand watching her making a fool of herself all the time. He doesn’t even pretend to like her, why is she settling for that?
Oh look, Hannah is speaking her mind! She is telling Adam what she wants, and she is telling him how she feels. Oh wow, she just told him how much she cares about him, and how it’s causing her to feel so hurt by his indifference. She’s starting to cry. And she’s saying that she knows he won’t change. Adam is about to say, “OK, I get it” and close the door.
But wait! Adam is reaching out to Hannah. He pulls her to him, and he’s telling her that he has strong feelings about what she just said. He urges her (with passion!) to be herself. This time is different, I can feel it! He’s been taking advantage of Hannah because she allowed it, but now that she’s stood up for herself, he sees her in a new light. He respects her, and that’s sexy!
Plus, Adam might be a dick, but he can’t be that much of a dick. He can’t be that guy who sees a girl’s teary confessional as an opportunity to get it in. That would make him more than selfish, more than narcissistic even, that would make Adam a sociopath. And there really aren’t that many sociopaths around, right? Except on blogs?
It used to be that actions speak louder than words, but all bets are off. Actions and words can both be lies, lies, lies. If Lena Dunham is right, and sex is a battleground, you should arm yourself well and trust only one thing: the white flag of surrender. Trust, but verify. Until he calls you his girlfriend, no sex. Witnesses would be ideal. Because apparently even I can’t properly judge a cad anymore. There are just too many of them around.
My other favorite moments from this week’s episode:
Dunham disses the feminist doctrine of Male = Violence
It was subtle – maybe you missed it.
After getting really pissed at Hannah and Marnie re Hannah’s diary entry, Charlie sputters, “You know what? I wouldn’t even want to stay here if I wanted to.” He then upends the coffee table he made Marnie. As gentle Charlie finally shows some anger, Hannah shouts, “That’s the kind of thing you do right before you hit us. Don’t hit us! Don’t hit us!” With a “Fuck you!” he storms out of the apartment.
Charlie as the male who still prefers relationship sex
Charlie: You’re not in love with me.
Marnie: Are you in love with me?
Charlie: I don’t care!
Marnie: How can you not care?
Charlie: I decided on you, OK? Don’t you get it? I don’t wanna go fucking other girls then walk around feeling thrilled and then sad or empty or whatever. I like the smell of your hair and I like the sound of your voice and I fucking decided on you!
If only Charlie hadn’t followed up by begging Marnie during sex: “Don’t abandon me, don’t abandon me!”
{ 393 comments… read them below or add one }
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@Ramble
Well, I live in Harvard’s backyard. My kids went to school with the kids of those professors, and I’m less than a mile from the medical area, which boasts some of the best hospitals in the world. Boston is a very vibrant city, and can be very, very intimidating.
Compared to a lot of my neighbors and friends, I’m a real slacker.
They’re not in Brooklyn Heights. Hannah mentioned in her job interview that she lives in Greenpoint. Adam must as well. I think she also referred to Park Slope as way too upscale for her. And it’s clear that Charlie’s apartment is waaayyy off the beaten track, requiring a bus to get to a train.
I think the apartments look fairly realistic. Adam’s especially is a dump.
@Fred Flange
I think you’re right – there’s great comic potential in Hannah’s cluelessness. That joke about date rape cracked me up in Episode 2, and how the interviewer said that kind of talk is not “office OK.”
She’s a bit like a female George Constanza.
@Alias
I can’t disagree with a single thing you said. Very reasonable, all of it. I’m alarmed at my own ability to rationalize this.
I’d heard of but never seen this show, so I checked it out: pretty good actually, well-written, funny. Absolutely NO attractive or appealing characters, though, male or female, except for perhaps Jessa, who is physically very attractive, though terrible relationship material. But the other girls all represent everything guys will run away from. Don’t try this at home. The boys are all terrible too though, so I guess at least it’s kind of equal.
The Adam character was, obviously, not going to change. I wouldn’t classify him as a player tho, he’s just taking what he can get. Which in this case is Hannah, who is better than nothing, I suppose, if she only didn’t talk so much.
@Herb 150
I think women who, in the age of feminism, who demanded to be in these careers that have that high stress and then are mad men don’t want women like them have missed a huge point (and this fits the “I’m a challenging woman” types too)
When you have a high stress job like that the last thing you want from your lover is more of the same. Sure, you blow off steam with your buddies from the job because they get it. I don’t care if my lover gets it. I want her to be an escape from that. I think this is what a lot of men are talking about when they say they want feminine women.
Escoffier May 15, 2012 at 10:47 am
There are two variables though. First the woman has to find a man who does not mind being married to a woman higher on the status ladder than he is (a minority of men), then she herself has to be a woman who does not mind being married to a man lower on the status ladder than she is (a minority of women). Draw the ven diagram and the overlap is quite, quite small. This is not a practical solution for most people.
My reply:
But for those few people who are managing to do it, it seems numbers of them are doing well. Susan, I know a few women who are in this grouping as well. And it is only possible when the spouses are dedicated to a greater goal, ie., their marriage and long term happiness, but without being overly concerned about society’s dictates or perhaps other people’s opinions as well?….They each have to believe that the other is truly admirable with qualities they find important for the long term, ie., his cool beta qualities as a dad; her feminine (loving and devoted mama bear) competence as a provider mom.
@ ADBG:
You guys are so negative!
I don’t mean gray area as in “he’s sending mixed signals”. I mean as in he seems to be relationship-minded and a bit infatuated but doesn’t live where I live.
Chris, unfortunately he has a somewhat high-pitched, tinny voice, but that video is very good.
He gives a very good explanation as to why otherwise masculine, intelligent boys are not available to girls. They were smart enough to learn the lessons that their PC overlords taught them. The natural sociopaths, on the other hand, they didn’t give a fuck.
> Demands must be backed up with actions or else they’re just hot air.
_____
Susan:
“At least among his friends, he has a reputation for being a good guy and not P&Ding girls. Last weekend, he told her how much he likes her”
——-
> What loyalty would a person’s friends have to you? You need to vet them too.
Take what people say explicitly with a grain of salt (especially when it requires you to take action) and put much much more weight to what they say implicitly.
Susan:
“One 24 yo woman shared a story with me today. For a month a guy has been trying to get together with her. His friends have talked to her about how much he likes her, and he has been demonstrating consistent interest. ”
——–
Demonstrating interest is nothing.
As others have already stated, when in doubt- err on the side of caution.
I feel bad for people who invest before commitment and end up disappointed.
You know I’d really like to hear a rational explanation of why women would have these “hamsters.” When does it serve a purpose – when does it create a favorable outcome?
Is seems women prefer following their hamster, and seek guys that they can change. Why is this?
Does the idea of reforming a cad make him a more satisfying reward?
I’ve heard the complaint of betas being “no challenge” over and over. It makes me think that women value a unwilling man the most, as he is the biggest challenge, and thus the most rewarding catch.
If women looked for LTR-material rather than a “reward” I don’t think the hamster would serve any purpose. The concept of wanting to beleive a person can change for the good isn’t really exclusive to women – but I don’t see why you’d ever apply it to someone you want to have a relationship with.
Although Charlie is far too supplicating, and seems to know how to turn off a girl in moments, he is the best suited for LTR-selection, no?
pvw:
“Didn’t the actress in real life say that she used to look at SATC and think that was reflective of real life?
how in the world has things come to that?
Growing up, I was told by my parents that the shows I saw on television were fictional and not to be taken seriously–pure fantasy and silliness, to be laughed at, critiqued and not used as a model for real life.”
———
> A lot of young people, through no fault of their own, spend too much time with same-aged peers in organized activities where they get very little one-on-one with adults. Media is the closest they get to actually peering into the life of those who are a generation or so older than them.
I understand, but it does not need to be. Both Happy Days and Laverne and Shirley were set in Wisconsin (HD in the Suburbs, and L&S in the city).
Mary Tyler Moor in Minneapolis.
The Andy Griffith Show was set in North Carolina (albeit, in a fictional town).
Nowadays, the best we get from that category is Hot in Cleveland. The whole premise being that since the high flying ladies were aiming for NYC or Paris, but ended up in Cleveland, those midwest hokies will think that they are hot.
Obviously I am exaggerating things here, but you get the idea.
Houston is the 4th biggest city in North America, and I am not sure if any show in the last 20 years has been based there.
Phoenix, Salt Lake…none of these places get to be settings for TV shows even though they are quite large and grew like hot cakes in the last 20 years.
IME, writers and producers love to hear that General are always fighting the last war, but they are rarely any better.
This is where Girls seems to deserve a lot of credit.
Well, I live in Harvard’s backyard.
I have a couple of friends from Boston, and, trust me, they do not have the friends that you do.
I also used to work in NYC, and I never knew the managing director of some hedge fund. (Although, I now have a friend of a friend who is.)
Susan:
“I can’t disagree with a single thing you said. Very reasonable, all of it. I’m alarmed at my own ability to rationalize this.”
———
> Glad you don’t think I’m too cynical, honestly, I’m just ultra-careful with who I emotionally invest in- so far, so good.
Happy belated Mother’s Day to you.
They’re not in Brooklyn Heights.
That is where the real Hannah lives, and I bet she got a lot of her genuine material from there and the place she grew up in, Manhattan.
Cooper:
“Although Charlie is far too supplicating, and seems to know how to turn off a girl in moments, he is the best suited for LTR-selection, no?”
———
> He has the raw material to be well-suited, but he needs to gain a lot of self-respect before he’s actually qualified. If he stays as he is, he’ll just settle for some undeserving woman and will eventually become resentful- so the relationship will be awful for both.
Did anyone else notice Ray’s overt pua-game tactics at the coffee shop?
(his banging of his fists)
@lowercase j
Interesting link. I wouldn’t count on all those eggs being viable or depend on the technology to the extent that I’d advise women to put off marriage, but I do think this could be a real boon to women. My own battle with endometriosis would have been emotionally easier if I had some banked eggs to fall back on.
Also, having a child much past one’s early 40s must be very, very difficult. I was exhausted having mine at 30 and 32. Not to mention the fact that you’re then the oldest mom in every group – I can recall certain moms who seemed more like grandmas when my kids were in elementary school
My kids bracketed my 40th b’day, and I was always the oldest mom in the room. It’s hard, but it beats the alternative.
@Byron
Haha, hence Adam’s suggestion that they play the “quiet game” during sex.
@Ogre
Nice analyses. I basically concur with the exception of this: “I’d liken him to what Vox would call a Sigma, in that Adam simply isn’t playing any games at all here, he’s ‘being who he is,’ and is totally unaware that there is even a game being played.”
A sigma may not play by the rules, but he still understands them, often better than most people. A sigma wins by his conscious refusal to play the game. He views it as being not worth his time. He’s a detached and amused observer of the game whose lack of participation is a DHV. That is what draws people to him. He’s catlike and cool.
Adam is clueless and socially dysfunction, but he has a damaged puppy quality to him. That’s why he draws Hannah and not Marnie.
@Cooper
I think the hamster has grown very big and fat in this SMP, because there’s been a real bifurcation of the male population into those good with women (20%) and everyone else. In prior generations, assortative mating was the norm and while there were always some foolish girls who got with bad boys or acted slutty, they were unusual and paid the price of shame. I think that’s resulted in two distinct and problematic tendencies among women:
1. To search for the humanity and deep down emotion in men like Adam.
2. To search for the sex appeal in men like Charlie.
Charlie ticks all the boxes for LT traits, but none of the tingle-worthy factor for ST mating. Adam is the reverse. If women want to mate (and they do), they’re going to be stuck between alphas and betas, wishing they could have a combo.
@J
I hear you. I just finished State of Wonder by Ann Patchett, have you read it? It’s about a scientist who studies a tribe in the rainforest where the women get pregnant well into their 70s. Just reading it made my pelvis hurt.
Happy Mother’s Day to all the moms who hang here!
@Susan
I used to spend a lot of time hanging out in your backyard. While I wasn’t a pit rat I spent a good amount of time there and even more at ManRay, TT the Bears, and the Middle East.
OGRE:
“I don’t see Adam as a player, or as an Alpha male as the terminology is used. He strikes me as someone
-completely oblivious to the societal rules of relating to other people.
-totally unaware that there is even a game being played.
————-
I don’t think oblivion counts as Sigma.
Sigmas know the game but refuse to adhere to the rules because they find the game dumb, they’re not looking to gain other people’s approval.
… and pregnancy > Single Mother > No Paternity Test > No Welfare
There was a reason why many people were so “judgmental”.
@Herb
That’s funny, my kids take in shows at the Middle East.
@SW
Was anyone else on Team Jessa in this episode? I loved it that she got her ex to cheat, as his motives were clearly questionable from the start.
I got a bit of a kick out of it, but I feel Jessa’s sexual victories are phyrric. She wins some short-term validation, but what will come of this in the longrun?
@Cooper
“You know I’d really like to hear a rational explanation of why women would have these “hamsters.” When does it serve a purpose – when does it create a favorable outcome?”
The hamsters sole purpose in life is to make it okay for a woman to fuck the cad believing he will commit. In the time before the pill, after the cad takes off, woman only choice is to be a dead single mom or find a dad to raise the kid.
This strategy is more effective than either the gentically inferior dad or dead single mom route.
Hello hamster, welcome to the evolutionary tree.
Sue: “It looks muscular under a squishy layer.”
In the way that the girls are more realistic looking in this series, so is he. This is what a fit guy normally looks like, without the very low bodyfat % that male actors and competitive bodybuilders tend to do for cameras or competitions. Maybe Mike C can explain more than me, but I imagine that I’ve been in more men’s locker rooms than you.
Actually, I haven’t seen a schlubby male yet. In a way, the men are shown at a much higher standard in this series than the women.
The more I think about Underdogs’ comment (#80), the more I think he’s spot on.
“Don’t you get it? I don’t wanna go fucking other girls then walk around feeling thrilled”
After the breakup Charlie is going to do exactly that – and probably be happy doing it. Then Marnie is going to catch word of it, and she’ll do the same (most likely with Booth) and will end up feeling even worse. Then she’ll try to get Charlie back, and he’ll have found a girl who appreciateds him by then. (there’s a good chance that it’ll end up being Shoshanna)
I think there is a general misunderstanding that Alphas are those that DO, and betas are those who DON’T (or can’t). When the reality is that there two separate personalities, eag doing exactly what they feel fit. Except betas come off as not being able to be alpha, when they actually being who they are (just like what a alpha does). Nice guys arent defective, we’re that way by choice.
@SusanW “Charlie ticks all the boxes for LT traits, but none of the tingle-worthy factor for ST mating. Adam is the reverse. If women want to mate (and they do), they’re going to be stuck between alphas and betas, wishing they could have a combo.”
Women who seek the combo will be disappointed. Men like me who have experienced failed relationships will understand the difference and will seek quality women and shun the flaks. The shunning goes beyond “slut shaming”. It is the shunning of unsuitable mates. Women won’t even get their chance of a long-term relationship. The statistics prove that men are less likely to marry.
Its funny that women will also stay in bad relationships since they are afraid to break it off with an unsuitable male, who will not marry because he is under employed or has family obligations or unwilling to settle down and have kids. These are known factors to hold back women, yet it continues.
To move forward, women need to break from the past as well as their rationalizations. Or say hello to raising cats.
@SW, Ian
That was a great comment on the hamster.
Yes , it was!
@SW
I’m still not immune to hamsterwheeling, projecting my own fantasy of nurturing a damaged boy and turning him around. This is a powerful female instinct.
Geez, Susan, first Roissy and now this! Put that hamster on a leash. :-0
Btw,
Per Alyssa Rosenberg, the viewership for this show so far is apparently 60% male:
http://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/174410/girls-is-surprisingly-male.html
@ ExNewYorker
“The sad part is that, these days, it better to err on the side of douchebag than nice guy, since the latter won’t even get on the train”
Cue the MGTOW movement. The cost-benefit breakdown for most guys who are not high-SMV (i.e., “nice” guys) is to get out of the game completely lest they risk a mental break with reality, a nervous breakdown, or other assorted psychosis as part of the cruel merry-go-round of contradicting female intent, self-delusion on the part of women trying to justify their cad-worship, and years upon years of being the have-nots.
Essentially, no man wants to draw their last breath in some mental institution while strapped to their bed covered in a strait jacket just because they wanted some female attention in their lives at some point.
Besides, shouldn’t this be celebrated by the Richard Dawkins, Bill Maher atheist crowd? What could be a more clear example of survival of the fittest? It’s practically Darwinian. Nice guys are getting the memo, which can be encapsulated thusly: “You are not good enough, fellas. Step aside. You’re blocking the players’ beeline path to his next notch”.
That’s what the grass-eating movement in Japan is all about. Guys just doing their thing, chillin’ and reacting to societal shaming by shaking their heads and saying: “Well, maybe you should have thought about that when you were denying me and my buddies sexually while having good tang chasing trash dick.”
If you were Charlie from “Girls”, would you try and find another woman to be with? After what he’s been through? Puh-lease.
Like Tyler Durden said in “Fight Club”: “We’re a generation of men raised by women. I’m wondering if another woman is really the answer we need.”
Get on the train, ExNewYorker? You know damned well that even if we did, the conductor would not validate our ticket and force us off at the next station anyways. Why bother?
@SW
I haven’t read it, but it sounds like a good summer read. The notion of giving birth at 70, painful as it is, is still preferable to the idea of having a teenager at 86. Every once in a while, when I see a particularly beautiful kid, I wish I could have another. Then I remember that they don’t stay cute and little for all that long.
I thought the show was very funny and thought provoking this week. I was so glad when Marnie finally dumped Charlie who is a total gamma–these guys possess little to no sex appeal no matter how attractive they are physically. Their thing is to immediately pedestalize any woman they become interested in. Loving and pedestalizing someone are two different things and those types should be avoided at all cost.
Adam and Hanna have a relationship dynamic that is the opposite of Marnie and Charlie’s. Adam is clearly emotionally unavailable and I have always believed that women who are attracted to emotionally unavailable men are too. If the Hannas were really ready to get into a serious relationship why not find a guy who is ready to give that to them. Alternatively, it could be what Susan, said about women wanting to fix or nurture some emotionally crippled guy.
I am a big advocate of no sex before monogamy. What I do not get is why so many today acts as if the concept of a woman making a guy earn sex and intimacy from her never existed in our culture. The relationship dynamics were far better and made for healthier unions, in my opinion.
@Cooper
+1
If you were Charlie from “Girls”, would you try and find another woman to be with? After what he’s been through? Puh-lease.
While I sympathize with Charlie, what he’s been through is not all that different from what most people, male or female, go through. Most of us get over it and eventually find someone good.
@Scipio Africanus
That’s interesting about men liking the show. It’s certainly been the case here, and also among the men I know. I think young guys can really relate to the male characters – again, a testament to Dunham’s perceptive writing. Also, my sense is that men feel Dunham is fair to men and realistic. There’s no misandry in the show, which is rare. As I said in the post, she has Hannah crying “assault” when there is obviously no threat – a clear dig at the way women often think the worst of men.
Modern pop culture is basically dominated by a female audience. I am curious as to how many girls would even want to see a realistic depiction of a debased culture that they greatly contributed to.
There is a reason why Lifetime is the “Channel for
VictimsWomen”.@TDotinthahouse
An is is not an ought. Furthermore: fitness is a function of many variables. In this culture, short term fitness leads to cad worship, while long term it may mark the decay of Western civilization and perhaps even its downfall. It’d become another textbook case illustrating how cultural shifts can reverse our progress. But never reduce evolution to such simple interpretations. The financial system has tried it and failed miserably.
Aside from that, it must be noted that the human species falls in between two extremes: dominant-submissive and cooperative. To state that the human species is 100% the first, is erroneous.
PS: Maher is an idiot.
That’s really interesting. I wonder if American women are more likely to act crazy, so guys are more wary. Based on the European films I see, I doubt it.
If my husband is to be used as a source I think is because American women use the drama! to do stuff that hurt the male (bring out past mistakes or intimacies, cheat, break up…) Hubby was terrified of discussions for a long while till he realized I wasn’t going to take my things and leave or call him names. So my guess is that he though that is how all women fight Latin women do fight but usually don’t go in for the kill you are going to share a bed with that man at night after all.
Granted, this is one data point, but it got me thinking that there is a rare type of woman out there: SWPL but with traditional values and high impulse control who can’t navigate the contemporary urban fuck and suck scene.
OK, I’ll play along- there aren’t any sociopaths and no world hunger, no sickness, no wars, no death, and no reality TV…..
Heh I want to move to that place you mention is there streets made out of chocolate too?
Compared to a lot of my neighbors and friends, I’m a real slacker.
How does that makes you feel? Do you think you you need to proof yourself to them or you make peace with this already?
I’ve heard the complaint of betas being “no challenge” over and over. It makes me think that women value a unwilling man the most, as he is the biggest challenge, and thus the most rewarding catch.
This is only for women that see men as their little projects, is good to be someone that adds beauty and happiness to a man’s life but adding and changing him to your “likings” are two entirely different things, YMMV.
@Liza
“I am a big advocate of no sex before monogamy. What I do not get is why so many today acts as if the concept of a woman making a guy earn sex and intimacy from her never existed in our culture.”
Well, I know in Pick-Up there are things called DLVs, and DHVs. (Demonstrations of higher/lower value)
Female hypergamy dictates a guy must demonstrate higher-value – DHVs.
All sorts of behaviors get categorized as being either a DHV OR DLV.
Probably one of the biggest DHVs is preselection (that the man is desired by other women).
Pedestalizing, such as complementing, doing too many favors, willing to invest before sex, and other supplicating behaviors are consider to be DLVs.
And on the other hand, being emotionally unavailable would probably be classified as a DHV, because it indirectly implies preselection.
A guy who pedestalizes a girl – one that wants to wrap his life around hers – would be demonstrating lower-value.
A guy who acts emotionally unavailable before sex – one who’s sex-life does revolve around this particular girl, or “doesn’t care” – would be demonstrating higher-value.
Cool stuff, isn’t it?
“Another woman is the daughter of a good friend. She went to Berkeley, then Harvard Law School, and became a successful constitutional lawyer – she has argued in front of the Supreme Court several times. She despaired of ever finding a mate. Ultimately, she fell in love with an associate who worked for her – he left the firm because she was a partner. He is younger than she is. She’s now in her early 40s – they have two daughters, ages 1 and 4. She brings home (a lot of) bacon, and he works in a much lower paying job.”
This sounds like a woman partner I know of in a law firm. Her problem was that they fired the associate when she revealed that she was dating him even though some of the partners are married to each other. Funny.
Youngish BigLaw partner? My guess would be $600,000. I’m a few years out of “compare the salary”.
Associate? $200,000.
Four more credits and I can go to med school. Then I’d be a doctor/lawyer/chemical engineer.
Cooper, emotionally unavailable behavior is a DHV only to women who have issues. It’s a Demonstration of No Future to women who seek true love and long-term relationships. I’ve ditched guys for acting hot and cold, or for not seeming interested.
When I was dating my husband and things were really serious, he called me several times a day, and we would talk for hours every single day. He was totally emotionally open, honest and available, which may scare away other girls but drew me in like a fly to light.
He wasn’t supplicating, but he did compliment me, showed that he cared about me, told me how much he wanted to be with me, etc. I did the same in return. I don’t know other relationships start, but that’s how ours started, and we continue to be like this today.
“An is is not an ought. Furthermore: fitness is a function of many variables. In this culture, short term fitness leads to cad worship, while long term it may mark the decay of Western civilization and perhaps even its downfall. ”
Western Civilization is ending because its ideas are developed. All high cultures end.
I’m a fan of Spengler on that one.
“Civilization
The body of the people, now essentially urban in constitution, dissolves into formless mass. Megalopolis and Provinces. The Fourth Estate (“Masses”), inorganic, cosmopolitan”
“2. Formation of Caesarism. Victory of force-politics over money. Increasing primitiveness of political forms. Inward decline of the nations into a formless population, and constitution thereof as an Imperium of gradually-increasing crudity of despotism”
Scheduled for 2000-2200. And right on schedule.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spengler%27s_civilization_model
I must watch this show somehow. Too bad Megaupload got the Scarface mansion treatment.
“Compared to a lot of my neighbors and friends, I’m a real slacker.
How does that makes you feel? Do you think you you need to proof yourself to them or you make peace with this already?”
I’m permanently consumed with a sense of envy, jealousy, and personal failure. I’ve never been able to make peace with my profound underachievement.
Cooper @195
I do not believe a guy complimenting a woman he is attracted to is demonstrating lower-value. How is she supposed to know you are attracted to her or find her attractive? All you are demonstrating is that you’re into playing mind games and that in and of itself is demonstrating lower-value.
A guy waiting to be intimate with a woman he is interested in does not mean he has to resort to supplicating and pedestalising that woman. Spending quality time with a woman while qualifying her as a long-term relationship prospect is what most emotionally healthy men do and that does not always include him spending a lot of money on her or showering her with compliments and bending over backwards.
If you are just looking to get laid or seeking short-term gratification, then you can use some of those PUA methods. I don’t understand men who claim they are seeking long-term relationships but they are applying PUA methods to get it.
Dawn of Megalopolitan Civilization
I will absolutely be using Megalopolitan in the future.
Which is no different than saying that you don’t understand men seeking long term relationships employing Game, which is what our fair host recommends.
“I don’t understand men who claim they are seeking long-term relationships but they are applying PUA methods to get it.”
Two reasons.
1) What they were doing before wasn’t working.
2) PUA works for getting LTRs.
@Cooper
“I think there is a general misunderstanding that Alphas are those that DO, and betas are those who DON’T (or can’t). When the reality is that there two separate personalities, eag doing exactly what they feel fit. Except betas come off as not being able to be alpha, when they actually being who they are (just like what a alpha does). Nice guys arent defective, we’re that way by choice.”
I think that’s an interesting way to categorize it.
- Those who can’t, and don’t want to. (Omega)
- Those who can’t, but want to. (Beta)
- Those who can, and do. (Players)
- Those who can, but chooses not to. (Alpha)
Am I missing something?
“Western Civilization is ending because its ideas are developed. All high cultures end.”
Interesting. What do you think is next on our menu?
I agree with the poster who said Jordan Petersen got it wrong in this video, despite is academic qualifications. Or maybe even as a result of them. I find much of academia to be out of touch.
“I don’t understand men who claim they are seeking long-term relationships but they are applying PUA methods to get it.”
Um, cause the women their age are only sleeping with guys who embody what it teaches.
I can only attempt to emmulate what it currently successful.
@Underdog
I can remember a chart that someone linked to a while back. (I can’t be bothered to look it up, especially on my phone) That particular one had a Sigma and Gamma.
The blog Alpha Game featured on the sidebar also has a decent Socio-Sexual Hierarchy article.
@J and @Alias.
Thats why I said I “liken” him to a Sigma and didn’t say he “is” a Sigma. Per Vox’s definition, a Sigma knows the game but chooses not to play it. But Adam is purely oblivious.
However, why would the end result be any different? Whether aware of the game or not, such a man’s actions would be the same, i.e. doing what he wants rather than playing the game. And more importantly, the reaction other people have would be the same, as others are not privy to whats going on in his head, and their responses are not contingent on knowing whether he is aware or unaware. So really, whats the difference? The measurement is other people’s responses is it not?
Frankly, I don’t quite agree with Vox’s definition of Sigma. In fact, knowing the game and choosing not to play it is an extremely Alpha way of doing things. Even the examples VD gives of Sigma behaviors come across more as rock-staresque Alpha actions.
@ Pearl:
“Western Civilization is ending because its ideas are developed. All high cultures end.”
Interesting. What do you think is next on our menu?”
Don’t know.
Best guess would be an articulation of the open spiral as opposed to the reaching toward infinite space of the West, or the infinite horizon of Russia, the straight line toward eternity of Egypt, the meandering path toward your destination of China, etc.
It’s winter. The seeds are being planted now. Apparently it takes a couple of hundred years to get any growth.
“I do not believe a guy complimenting a woman he is attracted to is demonstrating lower-value. How is she supposed to know you are attracted to her or find her attractive?”
Oh, complementing is definitely considered a DLV. For a preselected man – one of truly high value – would have no interest in displaying his attraction.
Correction to #210,
Interest isn’t the right word. I should have said “no need to”
Dawn of Megalopolitan Civilization – is that a metropolis full of megalomaniacs?
So I just watched this episode.
These women are all screwed up in the head and I am now hoping for a genre switch into zombie apocalypse. This fictional society is THAT bad.
I hope to god our real society isn’t that bad.
PUA does not work for LTR. An ex pickup artist explains in detail why he left the industry.
http://postmasculine.com/pickup-artist
@Ogre
However, why would the end result be any different?
In this case it is. Adam ends up with Hannah who has a low SMP. Is a sigma is a type of alpha, shouldn’t he end up with a 10? Vox Day says that people often wrongly equate gammas and omegas with sigmas. There’s an aroma of loserhood that hangs around them though that women sense and avoid. The end result is not the same.
Also, Marine, Re: Long-distance
Just got out of a LDR, have one friend jumping into one right now, and one that’s been in one for a few months.
Don’t do it unless you feel VERY comfortable with the person already.
@Anacaona
Ah, there’s a great deal of wisdom in this statement. Lay your weapons down.
I’ll be honest. I feel self-conscious around some of these folks. For example, my best friend in Boston is a woman I met 20 years ago – our daughters became friends in day care. (They are still close friends at 22!) We coordinated playdates and got friendly. She is an ER doc and her husband is a world renowned surgeon. I think if I worked in health care I would feel too intimidated to hang out with him. So ignorance is bliss, I just act like my slightly wacky self. They are our closest friends.
Also, I’ve been in many social situations where there are all these heavy hitters present, and someone asks “What do you do, Susan?” and I wind up with a crowd gathered round wanting to hear all about the blog. Once, a shrink who is a Harvard prof. asked, “What are your qualifications to write such a blog?” I said, “I’m a mom and I read a lot.” She looked dubious but she’s a subscriber
@Cooper
Wow, you’ve come a long way in a few weeks. You’re fluent in the concepts now, and you’ve swallowed the red pill without gagging or vomiting. If you can live with the truth, it truly will set you free.
Ah, there’s a great deal of wisdom in this statement. Lay your weapons down.
I haven’t had a lot of arguments with hubby but I do remember going to bed with him after some uncomfortably and it was so hard, I usually sleep hugging him but I wasn’t sure if he would hug me back or try to keep distance. I can’t imagine being like that for any amount of time so if we need to discuss something heavy I do it early in the morning in case we need space to process it so by night time we can sleep like a normal couple I can imagine this is similar in many Latin houses hence the “be careful what you are saying while you fight”
Also, I’ve been in many social situations where there are all these heavy hitters present, and someone asks “What do you do, Susan?” and I wind up with a crowd gathered round wanting to hear all about the blog. Once, a shrink who is a Harvard prof. asked, “What are your qualifications to write such a blog?” I said, “I’m a mom and I read a lot.” She looked dubious but she’s a subscriber
Heh that is really cool and makes me feel better I can be really wacky myself and I have charisma maybe I can make child rearing and staying at home as something interesting. I also have my writing so telling a story is usually a very good way to entertain a crowd or at least looking less like a “comecomida” “mealeater” which is a slur for SHAMs in my country.
@Anon
“PUA does not work for LTR. An ex pickup artist explains in detail why he left the industry.”
PUA is supposed to make you a well-rounded man, not a social-drone. That dude was obviously abusing the power he learned and didn’t have any self-controll or introspection he went off the deep end (major beta trait).
For every Mystery, there is a Neil Strauss.
“Once, a shrink who is a Harvard prof. asked, “What are your qualifications to write such a blog?” I said, “I’m a mom and I read a lot.” She looked dubious but she’s a subscriber
”
Classic credentialism. Was it a Ph.D. shrink or an M.D. shrink?
Either way, it’s (partially) pseudoscience. Psychology/psychiatry, that is. I just got used to the DSM-IV-TR.
I’m going to treat the DSM-V as a Christmas present. It’s going to be interesting to see what they’ve done this time.
@JP
Whoa! You’ve got to lose that! Seriously, fuck em. Or if it’s true, achieve more. Were you serious about medical school? Go for it! On Sunday I will attend my son’s college graduation from a fine university. It took him 7 years. We all have our own paths to travel.
@Lokland
I’ve been thinking about you. Another week? How are you feeling?
Yes! Beta guys should use Game to clear the dominance hurdle and then balance the mix of traits. I’ve said it many times before, but I’ll give a Girls version here:
Charlie with a bit of Adam worked in is far, far superior than Adam with a little bit of Charlie.
Beta guys with requisite dominance totally beats out alpha jerks pretending to be nice guys. I know it’s not easy, it’s not like snapping your fingers. But the red pill gives you what you need. Step up to that part of yourself or develop it if need be. Women can sniff supplication from miles away. I don’t think there’s anyone who watched that sex scene with Charlie and Marnie who didn’t cringe. Girls is worth a bunch of PUA videos. Be Ray. Don’t be Charlie.
@Anacaona
This has been very effective for me. Some people turn away, others want to get to know you better. I’ve used this as a filter for compatibility and I have found that it works very well.
@JP
I’m old-fashioned. You have to have an MD to be called a shrink. The field has changed a lot – it’s my understanding that most psychiatrists today are focused on prescribing medication rather than talk therapy.
“@JP
I’m permanently consumed with a sense of envy, jealousy, and personal failure. I’ve never been able to make peace with my profound underachievement.
Whoa! You’ve got to lose that! Seriously, fuck em. Or if it’s true, achieve more. Were you serious about medical school? Go for it! On Sunday I will attend my son’s college graduation from a fine university. It took him 7 years. We all have our own paths to travel.”
I’m at that stage of life where you say to yourself, “hey, maybe I shouldn’t have withdrawn from life, played computer games, and slept though college and law school”.
Apparently some people use that time of their life to get some sense of what they want to go do with themselves rather than my anxiety/depression/withdraw approach to college.
I kind of skipped that step and went straight into career, marriage, and children. This is particularly a problem when you have no actual interest in your career.
I have never seen one second of the show, but I am guessing that Ray is in a relationship? (I know that Charlie is.)
PUA-ism is mostly about approaching and getting (banging) girls, not as much about keeping them.
Hell, Roissy does a fairly poor job explaining that.
Oh, and Susan
… Seriously, fuck em. …
Good for you. However, minor nit-pick: the proper grammar is “Fuck’em” with an apostrophe. Otherwise, well done.
@ underdog
it does appear the industry has come a long way. sasha cobra is now doing the pua seminar circuit teaching sexual energy and tantra. could you explain why this client may be making these particular noises during this session? ive never heard a man do that before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21aamIROUJs
here she’s at a pua seminar answering some questions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnzkuoZbnR0
i pretty much agree with what she says in the q & a. i’m glad pua is moving in this direction. it will be better for both sexes, and for sex.
@Susan
.You didn’t check under my tongue, hahaha. I’d still say the pill is lodged half way. I’m very glad to know it though.
if the above videos are too new agey for you, she gets more down to earth here explaining why women humiliate men. i think we all, both male and female, can relate to this. im glad the pua world is listening to women now, and women like her. she comes off a lot softer and wiser than the other women (party girl types) i’ve seen in their videos. i don’t agree with everything she says here but the crux is on point. notice the reactions of the men to her. they are very receptive to her energy. she’s not particularly goodlooking but i bet all the men in the audience wish they had a girl like her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fw-W5rcN_4&feature=relmfu
going to be stuck between alphas and betas, wishing they could have a combo.
. 174 Susan Walsh May 15, 2012 at 1:52 pm
@J
My kids bracketed my 40th b’day, and I was always the oldest mom in the room. It’s hard, but it beats the alternative.
I hear you. I just finished State of Wonder by Ann Patchett, have you read it? It’s about a scientist who studies a tribe in the rainforest where the women get pregnant well into their 70s. Just reading it made my pelvis hurt.
Happy Mother’s Day to all the moms who hang here!
——————————————————–
I had two when I was young, and was the youngest mom…then 2 more when I was older and the last one I was almost 44 when I had him….Its a completely different experience being a mom at this age.
Happy Mother’s Day to you too Susan
“@JP
I’m old-fashioned. You have to have an MD to be called a shrink. The field has changed a lot – it’s my understanding that most psychiatrists today are focused on prescribing medication rather than talk therapy.”
Yep, they are prescription based.
The mental health system is a complete mess here and underfunded, so the psychiatrists change jobs on a regular basis, which plays hob with the client’s mental states.
I’ve got one client who’s had three different shrinks in two months. She’s manic-depressive, but the current med configuration has caused her to go completely manic. My staff is ready to kill me for making her a client.
“I don’t understand men who claim they are seeking long-term relationships but they are applying PUA methods to get it.”
Two reasons.
1) What they were doing before wasn’t working.
2) PUA works for getting LTRs.
—-
LTRs with what kind of women?
maybe I can make child rearing and staying at home as something interesting.
I was shocked at how interesting staying home with kids actually was.
@this is Jen, SW and all the other moms and moms to be–
Hope you all had a terrific Mother’s Day!
Liza, let’s start with this:
What do you think PUA is? Why do you think it works well for short term and not for long term? What should guys do differently if they want long term?
Yep kids are so much more present, authentic and insightful than adults. Just more pleasant and plain fun to be around, except for when they get bratty.
Sue: “Charlie with a bit of Adam worked in is far, far superior than Adam with a little bit of Charlie.”
For the woman, it is. For a man, the latter is obviously superior.
“What do you think PUA is? Why do you think it works well for short term and not for long term? ”
From a PUA site, “Picking up girls is easy. Having them actually like you for who you are is harder. But once you know this little secret, it becomes easy again. All you have to do is:
Just be awesome.
That’s right. For some people this comes naturally, such as the naturals. Most guys have to learn how to be awesome, but it’s just like learning English — well worth it.
Remember, you’re always awesome to girls who are below your league, and chances are there are a lot of them out there. With this in mind, one way to becoming awesome to the kind of girls you really want is by simply starting to be out of their league before you even meet them.
Who is out of the league of random hot chicks? Pretty much any guy who has scarce resources other chicks care about, such as money, fame, a VIP table, drugs, or a large package.
Now all you have to do is have a bro who introduces you as having at least one of these things and BAM – chick is yours. Remember, never brag about yourself – have your wingman do it for you.
A variation of this is to meet the girl’s fat friend and impress her with your charm and awesomeness, after which you invite them both to join you at your table for drinks and walk away. She will tell the hottie all about you, turning her instantly into a temporary Bro. You can tell her about your money, fame or anything else except the package — life is too short to pork fat chicks. WHADUP!”
Knock. Knock.
A definite beta guy,
What do you think PUA is? Pick-Up Artist.
Why do you think it works well for short term and not for long term?
A guy feigning disinterest and pretending to be of high value (if you feel you have constantly demonstrate high value it is likely that you are actually of low value) has to know at some point the facade has to come down, and then what? What kind of foundation is that to start/build a long-term relationship on?
If a guy is pretending that he is not attracted to me, then I will take him at face value even when I know he is feigning. I don’t have time for head games. I have encountered PUA’s and guys running Game and I am immediately turned-off by them. I have absolutely no interest in going to war just to be in a relationship.
If PUA and Game methods are getting you the long-term relationship you are longing for then continue to go for it. But I believe that those relationships are doomed from the start.
I still want to know, what kind of women are men attracting for LTRs using PUA and Game methods?
Liza, “I still want to know, what kind of women are men attracting for LTRs using PUA and Game methods?”
According the to pua I qouted above, “Who is out of the league of random hot chicks? Pretty much any guy who has scarce resources other chicks care about, such as money, fame, a VIP table, drugs, or a large package.
Now all you have to do is have a bro who introduces you as having at least one of these things and BAM – chick is yours.”
Just going to drop a bunch of random statements here…
The references to the “hamster” are quite possibly the most dumb-sounding and irritating thing I’ve ever heard…I have yet to hear any explanation of what cognitive dissonance has to do with a fucking hamster. I am also sure that when I find out, it will be stupid.
People have commented on the unrealistic aspect of having them in Brooklyn Heights, apparently without having watched or understood the show, which makes a big deal about the fact that they are all supported by their parents. That’s how people live in Brooklyn Heights.
I have a lot of thoughts on this show. I’ve been hoping that other people around the internet would have interesting things to say, but I’ve mostly been disappointed by the critical responses.
I’m going to vent now about the idiocy of those responses. I suppose that first I should say that my perspective probably has been shaped by the fact that I lived in circles very much like the one described by the show. The critical response to the show displays a bunch of moronic reading habits. First is the absurd desire for political correctness. People are spilling all of various contents of their brains on this one show, for some reason. Yes, this is an increasingly unequal, fragmented, and segregated society…the show accurately reflects that, which is a prerequisite for it doing anything artistically interesting at all. All the commentary on how there are no non-white characters, and on how privileged the characters are, is profoundly stupid. It’s embarrassing for our culture that people are allowed to say stuff like this in public without shame. Yes, there are privileged people on the planet. I hope it didn’t take a fucking TV show to make you aware of that. I’ll go further: privileged people are often more interesting than un-privileged people.
Another theme is people venting their hatred of a certain segment of young people (called “hipsters”). The show is relatively self-aware about the failings of people in this group. I guess my general problem is with people – especially on this site – reading everything through the lens of their own private, absurd, insecure little take on the world. “No man has ever respected a woman for standing up for herself, never ever!” “These alpha males are all egoists and don’t care about anything but themselves!”
To put it in a nutshell, people don’t know how to read. The icing on the cake is stuff like this:
“It’s also unsurprising that she was not a STEM major.”
If I see any more STEM majors jerking off about their hardcore brilliance, I’m going to freak. I think these two things I’m talking about here are connected. People don’t learn how to read anymore, but worse, they don’t know that they don’t know. They think the humanities are some sort of playground.
Sorry, I know this is all needlessly caustic and inadequately substantiated! Maybe it’s that I disagree with most of Susan’s readings of the show, but I don’t have time to detail how, though I’d like to.
@ADBG
“These women are all screwed up in the head and I am now hoping for a genre switch into zombie apocalypse. This fictional society is THAT bad.”
Thats probably the only thing that could make me watch this show.
“Just got out of a LDR, have one friend jumping into one right now, and one that’s been in one for a few months.
Don’t do it unless you feel VERY comfortable with the person already.”
+1
I did one year at 16,000 km apart.
I trusted her nearly endlessly but I’ll admit the last few months were stressful and every little disturbance/detail had me thinking something was wrong.
“I still want to know, what kind of women are men attracting for LTRs using PUA and Game methods?”
My fiance.
Two degrees, currently subing part time trying to get into full time teaching. Her dream is either 1st or 3rd grade (why not 2 you ask?, still not a clue after 4 years).
She also works part time as my secretary helping me run my stuff.
Virgin when I met her. Never kissed another guy.
Speaks 4 languages, is kind, caring, bubbly and will make an excellent wife and mother.
Called both my mother and grandmother on mothers day from halfway around the world and talked to them for half an hour each without my prompting or reminder.
Plays piano, sketches and I’m guessing her next goal is the harp because some monstrosity showed up on my doorstep this morning which I have yet to ask her about.
Prior to meeting me had been to a club a total of one time.
Visits and speaks to my dying grandfather more than any one else in the family. Calls him her papa and I’ve never seen him smile until she met him.
Doesn’t drink, smoke, do drugs, strip her clothes of at random, dance on table tops, fuck dudes in wash rooms, hit up frat parties, make a habit of being a bitch/being late/flaky type attitude.
Sympathizes with the plight of small animals in need, kids, the elderly and very importantly men.
Hates feminism.
Well that and bar sluts.
@OTC
I’ve been thinking about this for the last hour. I get it, I do. The sexes are at cross purposes to some extent.
@Jones
“If I see any more STEM majors jerking off about their hardcore brilliance, I’m going to freak.”
Biochemistry- long stoke
Genetics- short stroke
Chemistry- aaahhhhh
I hope this is satire. It made me sad.
Note:
In 244 there should be an @Lisa just before
“My fiance”
I was shocked at how interesting staying home with kids actually was.
Oh don’t get me wrong the dumbest kid is always more interesting than the dumbest adult I prefer the company of kids but I’m an artist so for me having a constant source of new discoveries in the day to day basis is a rewarding interesting experience but adults don’t talk about this things with fondness or fascination in this culture hence my fears. I’m just processing it I’m sure once the baby is out of me I will get the Maternity Directive downloaded to my brain and I will be too busy for the a few months to think about this, but eventually one day when the kid doesn’t need me that much I’m sure I will think about this again, YMMV.
According the to pua I qouted above, “Who is out of the league of random hot chicks? Pretty much any guy who has scarce resources other chicks care about, such as money, fame, a VIP table, drugs, or a large package.
Now all you have to do is have a bro who introduces you as having at least one of these things and BAM – chick is yours.”
—-
Oh, I see. Hot, dumb and extremely shallow chicks. Now, these are the qualities every guy should be seeking in a woman for a long-term relationship, at least she’s hot. *sarcasm off*
Not satire. Its from a PUA site.
Question for Lokland. Why the hell would you need to use tacky PUA tactics on a woman like that? My only guess as to why they may have worked on her is precisely because of her lack of experience.
“Oh, I see. Hot, dumb and extremely shallow chicks. Now, these are the qualities every guy should be seeking in a woman for a long-term relationship, at least she’s hot. *sarcasm off*”
Like attracts like. What’s that law of gender parity by Spenglar?
To elaborate a little, I guess I don’t really disagree with any of your observations, Susan, but I do find it funny how differently men and women respond to certain things…
One, I think it’s funny that you think Adam’s body looks weird – as others have commented, that’s a nice touch of realism about what a fit male body looks like. That said the show does a fantastic job of depicting him as a certain kind of gross.
The theme of the episode was the ways that girls use sex as a means of validation. I thought it was pretty obvious how that led to the bizarre attempt to seduce the boss. Her distress at being denied this validation is what led to the crazy attempts at blackmail, and then to her running back to Adam. The masturbation scene was crazy, I don’t know if I’ve figured out what was going on there yet.
Jessa also sought validation, successfully, but in an equally fucked up way. I think it’s funny you thought that was great – I thought it was disturbing. Having sex just to prove a point? But I know that this is done.
@Susan
“I’ve been thinking about you. Another week? How are you feeling?”
Meh. I’ll live.
Couple thoughts.
Personally I’ve come to view this situation much like a war movie I watched, The Front Line (Korean).
Essentially theres two sides that go back and forth fighting over this hill. Going at it over and over again with retreats-offensives.
Eventually two small groups start leaving stuff behind in one of the bunkers. Send letters to family in the South, matches for the one side, booze for the other. Kind of a comraderie between two enemies.
I have no idea why but this is what trying to merge male-female goals looks like to me. Small concessions in an otherwise endless battle.
On a shittier note, everyone dies at the end.
——————————————————–
Now an idea on the differences between the two sexes.
Men are disqualifiers. Women are qualifiers.
To get a man to commit a woman must NOT have done X, Y, Z. There are very few must haves for men but A LITERAL SHIT TON of must nots.
Women are the reverse. Many qualifiers but few disqualifiers.
In this way we can see that a man that has many qualifers can still be an asshole but woman will still dig it. He passes all the tests, he might still be a complete cad but he is a hot cad.
The same rarely if ever occurs in men wrt sluts (dependent on the mans own history).
Now what this results in for women is either a your good enough/acceptable or unacceptable because she has one of the disqualifiers.
Women have many different qualifiers and each one values them differently. In that way it must be possible to hit some and not others but still reach the necessary amount of attraction.
Men are like on/offs in regards to attraction (including LTR acceptability, though once in it the attraction can most definetly grow).
Women are like… I don’t know what but they are cummulative (there are also negatives that detract obviously).
@anon
“My only guess”
Thats your problem right there.
Stop guessing, start knowing.
Solves many of lifes issues, not limited to women.
Lisa, we know you understand more than you’re letting on. But let me spell it out for you anyway.
For the men, it’s not a choice between good women and bad women. For the men it’s a choice between whomever will have them and no one. It may drive the women crazy, but it’s driving young men to suicide.
Think I’m exaggerating?
Sue: “It looks muscular under a squishy layer.”
In the way that the girls are more realistic looking in this series, so is he. This is what a fit guy normally looks like, without the very low bodyfat % that male actors and competitive bodybuilders tend to do for cameras or competitions. Maybe Mike C can explain more than me, but I imagine that I’ve been in more men’s locker rooms than you.
I haven’t seen the show or what Adam’s? body looks like so I’m not sure what exactly is being referenced or what Susan is referring to, so I’ll speak real generally. Most women probably haven’t seen a guy who has a high level of muscle mass but also is maybe carrying 10 to 15% or even slightly higher bodyfat. Most guys don’t really have well-developed muscle mass, and they are either thin and low body-fat or just plain fat.
The “muscular” look most women are familiar with from photo shoot type stuff like magazines are from guys who have specifically dieted down for the photo shoot to 6-8% bodyfat or maybe 8-10%. Unless you are blessed with incredible genetics holding 6-8% on a regular basis isn’t realistic. Anyways, a guy who is carrying 20-40 pounds more muscle than the average guy for his height at maybe 12-15% bodyfat is going to look big with muscles but with a “squishy” layer covering it all which is that extra 3-5% bodyfat.
Liza Couple Hundred and Change said:
“I still want to know, what kind of women are men attracting for LTRs using PUA and Game methods?”
__________________________
Depends on what you mean by Game methods and PUA tactics.
My girl’s got a prescription pad with her name on it. Her N is very, very low. She’s smokin’ hot and squared away. She buys me rifles for my birthday, and pistols for Christmas – that’s how cool she is.
I don’t have a fuzzy hat or know any magic tricks, but without a basic understanding of Red Pill stuff she’d never have returned my texts in the beginning.
Liza, don’t hate Game. You’re barking up the wrong tree if you do. The fact is, most men were raised wrong. Lots of them work very hard to be unattractive. Game, especially Inner Game, is a remedy for that.
Lokland, enlighten us. What made your fiancee respond positively to a neg?
Why is there so much hate for “cads” and players here? Do you imagine that women these days, with the way they behave deserve any better Susan? The “manosphere” is, despite what every man is really looking for in a woman (loyalty and fidelity), nevertheless almost totally focused on training men to give women what they want. It’s not about what men want at all, in fact what we want is jettisoned as the first act of initiation. The first rule of game is not to trust or count on any one woman. That’s what makes it so powerful. Even guys who will never be good at the actual art of seduction are at least given a shield of armor. They turn from hapless fools getting crushed under heels to men with at least a modicum of self respect and some rudimentary tools to navigate the terrain. And it’s women, with the freedom that they’ve won and their persistent and foolish fantasizing that have turned the SMP into what it’s become. Cads and players are just the men that have the talents (and the ruthlessness) to capitalize in the system that women themselves perpetuate.
The way you use the word commitment has no meaning. Commitment for what and for how long, and why? Why should any woman have any expectation of commitment from any man just because she’s interested in him? And her interest is based on the exact same cues that every other woman’s interest is based on. Should I expect sex from an attractive woman simply because she has big tits and a nice ass? At least the manosphere is offering a service to men, teaching them the skills they need to give woman what they want. In exchange they get sex. What do you teach women to offer men that would make them offer commitment in exchange. Does any woman around here even have the slightest idea what men might want in exchange for commitment? Guess what, the first thing, and the only thing that can’t be negotiated is trust. Women are acting like they can do whatever the fuck they want, whenever the fuck they want and then they go around bewildered by the discovery that men who have a clue don’t put their hearts and lives on the line for them. Wake up. In this SMP nobody deserves anything and nobody should expect anything.
As more men are provided with the tools that game gives them, it’s going to become harder for women to get what they ultimately want out of the SMP because there will simply be less fools to be fooled. Women have had it easy because most men were innocent and childish. But the tide is turning and it behooves women interested in getting what they want to learn what it is they need to offer in exchange. In other words to have game of your own.
The hypergamous drive has become unshackled and for the most part expresses itself freely. We men have a similar drive for variety, so it will be interesting to see what happens to the concept of commitment as the limits on the expression of these urges are removed, which they will inevitably will be.
The PUA article that anon posted was hilarious. I certainly hope that it was satire. If you need to present a misleading image or have your “bro” lie for you, then you have no game and are horrible as a PUA. I don’t think even Mystery stoops that low, as shallow and ridiculous as I think his methods are.
“Does any woman around here even have the slightest idea what men might want in exchange for commitment?”
Loyalty. My ability to trust in a girl. The more I think about it, the more the word “virgin” comes to mind. That’s the surest factor that will get me to truly commit to the point of marriage with a girl — hymen, blood and all. The more I think about it, the more I think primitive societies were on to something when they demanded virginity in their wives. The fact of the matter is, it’s hard to trust women nowadays given how slutty the average girl is. And it’s pretty pointless to commit to a girl you don’t really trust when you can get pussy so easily nowadays without having to commit. I’ve been thinking about ending things with my girlfriend simply because of this fact. I simply don’t like/trust her sexual history and, in turn, future ability to be loyal; and I feel like the last year and a half was a waste when I could’ve stayed a PUA and be swimming neck-deep in pussies. And her sexual history, if true, is no where near as bad as other girls I know. The funny thing is, though, I think she’s starting to sense my disconnect because she’s been acting super sweet lately and making it harder to me to make my decision.
@Jones
Not according to Dunham.
anon:
If PUA does not work for LTR how do you explain why Athol gets such great results teaching people to aply it to their LTR?
anon said:
” if the above videos are too new agey for you, she gets more down to earth here explaining why women humiliate men. i think we all, both male and female, can relate to this. im glad the pua world is listening to women now, and women like her. she comes off a lot softer and wiser than the other women (party girl types) i’ve seen in their videos. i don’t agree with everything she says here but the crux is on point. notice the reactions of the men to her. they are very receptive to her energy. she’s not particularly goodlooking but i bet all the men in the audience wish they had a girl like her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fw-W5rcN_4&feature=relmfu
”
You are glad the PUA world is listening to women now. Well, what this woman is teaching is what was taught to her by a man. PUAs have been looking into tantra since before the Game was published (Steve Picus for example, but many others as well). If listening to women was what worked the guys who became PUAs would have never needed to because they had already spent their life messing up their love and sex life following the counter productive advice of women.
anon:
“Question for Lokland. Why the hell would you need to use tacky PUA tactics on a woman like that? My only guess as to why they may have worked on her is precisely because of her lack of experience.”
First people argue that PUA only works on bar sluts (who have tons of experience) but now you argue it works on inexperienced virgins?
The Sasha Cobra lady is very good though.
@Lokland
Succinct and accurate, IMO.
@modernguy
Cads and players are male sluts. Male sluts are incentivized by female sluts. I have no use for either, here or anywhere.
“May the he-whores and she-whores couple in kind, and leave the rest to be.”
Jesus Mahoney
@Lokland, regarding qualifiers and disqualifiers post.
You seem to be saying women are indifferent to where on the asshole/nice scale a man falls, as long as he meets the necessary qualifiers. That’s a pretty depressing thought.
“Cads and players are male sluts. Male sluts are incentivized by female sluts. I have no use for either, here or anywhere.”
I don’t know about this one. If we agree that women are the gatekeepers to sex and men are the gatekeepers to emotional commitment; and if a slut is a woman who abandons her gatekeeper role and sleeps around, then a man-slut must be a man who abandons his gatekeeper role and commits to unworthy women. Both of these actions can attributed to a lack of self-worth. A player doesn’t sleep around because he lacks self-worth. He doesn’t wake up the next day and regret having sex the night before. He doesn’t go through moments of depression when reality kicks in. He also doesn’t devalue himself as a man in any form by sleeping around — in fact, he raises his value due to pre-selection. Women naturally flock to him in hope of making him “change his ways” and have him commit to them. So to me, male-sluts aren’t men who sleep around. Male-sluts are actually AFCs walking around with oneitis wining-and-dining girls who’s been used up by the carousel .
Also, Lokland, you lucky fuck. Nice job, pimp.
@Underdog
You’re talking about emotional promiscuity among males, which I wrote about in a recent post. I agree that is the male equivalent psychologically of female sexual promiscuity. However, I find it useful to discuss sexual promiscuity in and of itself. What the numbers show is that the same percentage of men and women are sexually promiscuous – clearly with each other. They’re essentially cycling through, or trading amongst themselves. Since those males are actually poor relationship prospects for non-promiscuous women, I consider it appropriate to point out the red flags those males display.
Hmmm, I’ve actually heard several stories to the contrary. There are several prominent male bloggers who used to be PUAs or at least believers in Game who have divorced themselves completely from it for the exact reasons you describe.
As Helen Fisher says, sex is never casual, even for males. You’ve got just as complicated a hormonal cocktail surging through your system as we do. It’s not the same, but Fisher talks about men falling in love when the vasopressin switch gets flipped. Last week Ben was here talking about how he’d fallen really hard for a fuckbuddy. Twice.
Isn’t oneitis just a form of limerance?
From wikipedia.
“The concept “of ‘limerence’ provides a particular carving up of the semantic domain of love”,[4] and is an attempt at a scientific study into the nature of love. Limerence is considered as a cognitive and emotional state of being emotionally attached or even obsessed with another person, typically experienced involuntarily and characterized by a strong desire for reciprocation of one’s feelings – a near-obsessive form of romantic love.[5] For Tennov, ‘sexual attraction is an essential component of limerence…the limerent is a potential sex partner’.”
I know that I started to becoming romantically attracted to specific girls when I was about 6 or 7. I was pretty much only ever interested in one girl at a time.
Oh, and anon, I know tons of advanced yogis and advanced meditators, tantricas etc. and have been on a bunch of retreats of various kinds and met people who have done all sorts of deep internal work for years and decades and game works on them too. Just as well as on other people. They are less susceptible to dark game I´d say but no less responsive to game. So arguing game only works on barsluts and naive virgins is plain bullshit.
@Susan
One note vis-a-vis sex and emotions for men. There’s been a lot of talk on this forum about the low conversion ratio (I think the number quoted was 12%) of hookups/FWB to real relationships. However, I think what hasn’t been talked about is what I believe to be the nearly equally low conversion ratio for the traditional path to dating, and not just for men. For example, I can think of 3 very attractive girl friends of mine, and a few who are less attractive, who’ve gone on at least 30-40 first dates in the 3 years since we’ve graduated from college. For each of them, only 1 (and in a couple cases none) have resulted in a lasting relationship. I can say the same thing for most of the guys I know (and myself). My roommate and I have been on at least 40+ first dates in the past 3 years. For both of us, 1 has resulted in a lasting relationship. That’s for any number of reasons (we rejected them, they rejected us, it turned into FWB, was a ONS, etc), but only one ended up being a relationship. I think that with all the bashing of hookups as a way to relationships, the traditional route (dating, courting, etc) has been overvalued. For men and women with options, who aren’t looking for a relationship just to be in one and only want it with someone truly special, the odds of finding the right person are quite low, no matter what route you take, and patience and work (yes, work) are key as well.
P.S. See a lot of myself in Ray, especially in how he deals w/Marnie. Ray doesn’t really practice game per se, he’s just confident, smart, speaks his mind and doesn’t pull punches. A good comparison in my life would be to one of my roommates (not the aforementioned one). He’s a really nice guy, and girls love him. However, they love him like a teddy bear. He’s the one who girls always say “he needs a girlfriend he’s so great”. I then ask why they don’t date him if he’s so great, and I’m greeted with hemming and hawing and “well not for me”. He is close and friends with far more girls than I am, because I offend some of them by being willing to speak my mind, even if it might offend people. However, I sleep with far, far more girls than he does. A tradeoff I’m very willing to make. One concrete example. Last week, we ran into a girl who neither of had seen for a few months. She’s a friend of a friend that we’ve met a few times before, but is not close to either of us. We both always thought she was pretty hot. I immediately was hitting on her, and got her number (we’re going out tomorrow night). My roommate acted completely like a friend. Afterwards we talked about it, and he said he couldn’t believe I did that. I asked why, and his response essentially was that he knows her friends, it’s too awkward, etc. IE he has what most people would call the beta fear of being too forward/offending people.
Cads and players are male sluts. Male sluts are incentivized by female sluts. I have no use for either, here or anywhere.
Why do you draw the line there? Do you think players only sleep with sluts? What’s a slut to you and why is she worse than the average girl who has been in 8 or 9 casual relationships? From a man’s point of view the slut is actually more trustworthy. At least she’s up front about what she wants. She doesn’t deceive you about who she is or what her motivations are. These girls who go from casual relationship to casual relationship are no different than the sluts, they just deceive themselves and everyone else with nonsense like “it just didn’t work out” or “we grew apart” etc. etc. when in reality they moved on simply because they were bored. They don’t have the slightest idea of what commitment means, and they don’t deserve it.
Loyalty. My ability to trust in a girl. The more I think about it, the more the word “virgin” comes to mind. That’s the surest factor that will get me to truly commit to the point of marriage with a girl — hymen, blood and all. The more I think about it, the more I think primitive societies were on to something when they demanded virginity in their wives. The fact of the matter is, it’s hard to trust women nowadays given how slutty the average girl is. And it’s pretty pointless to commit to a girl you don’t really trust when you can get pussy so easily nowadays without having to commit. I’ve been thinking about ending things with my girlfriend simply because of this fact. I simply don’t like/trust her sexual history and, in turn, future ability to be loyal; and I feel like the last year and a half was a waste when I could’ve stayed a PUA and be swimming neck-deep in pussies. And her sexual history, if true, is no where near as bad as other girls I know. The funny thing is, though, I think she’s starting to sense my disconnect because she’s been acting super sweet lately and making it harder to me to make my decision.
Exactly. You simply have no reason to commit to her. Why? What is she offering that other girls don’t? You can’t trust her any more than any other girl. She’s just banking on the hope that you won’t realize that. That you’ll see some fairy tale in her and fall in love by magic. It’s total fantasy and at some point, after a lot of disappointment women are going to realize it.
@Dogsquat
I just hate game when men attempt to use it on me. If it is getting men the women they desire–fine.
Also, I think men who are not players/cads tend to romanticize/glamorize the manwhore lifestyle as being ideal for most men. They are only looking at it from the outside. However, a lot of those guys (i.e. T. Max and G. Clooney) report that after some years of living a promiscuous lifestyle they only ended up feeling lonely and empty.
“You are glad the PUA world is listening to women now. Well, what this woman is teaching is what was taught to her by a man. PUAs have been looking into tantra since before the Game was published (Steve Picus for example, but many others as well). If listening to women was what worked the guys who became PUAs would have never needed to because they had already spent their life messing up their love and sex life following the counter productive advice of women.”
She says she learned her no touch technique from Shantam Nityama, a man, yes. If you listen to the audio here http://www.nityama.com/ his views on women, relationships, and especially marriage, run completely contrary to the prevailing views of men on this site. They are the polar opposite of Modernguy’s comment,
“What do you teach women to offer men that would make them offer commitment in exchange. Does any woman around here even have the slightest idea what men might want in exchange for commitment? Guess what, the first thing, and the only thing that can’t be negotiated is trust. Women are acting like they can do whatever the fuck they want, whenever the fuck they want and then they go around bewildered by the discovery that men who have a clue don’t put their hearts and lives on the line for them. Wake up.”
And Underdogs comment, “Loyalty. My ability to trust in a girl. The more I think about it, the more the word “virgin” comes to mind. That’s the surest factor that will get me to truly commit to the point of marriage with a girl — hymen, blood and all. The more I think about it, the more I think primitive societies were on to something when they demanded virginity in their wives. The fact of the matter is, it’s hard to trust women nowadays given how slutty the average girl is. And it’s pretty pointless to commit to a girl you don’t really trust when you can get pussy so easily nowadays without having to commit. I’ve been thinking about ending things with my girlfriend simply because of this fact. I simply don’t like/trust her sexual history and, in turn, future ability to be loyal; and I feel like the last year and a half was a waste when I could’ve stayed a PUA and be swimming neck-deep in pussies. ”
If you listen to more of Sasha, her ideas run completely contrary to the majority of stuff that is touted as PUA on the web even now. That many former PUAs are leaving that lifestyle and becoming interested in things people like Sasha and Nityama have to offer is proof that its a different paradigm.
” I know tons of advanced yogis and advanced meditators, tantricas etc. and have been on a bunch of retreats of various kinds and met people who have done all sorts of deep internal work for years and decades and game works on them too. Just as well as on other people. They are less susceptible to dark game I´d say but no less responsive to game. ”
What you call “game” may be just plain ol’ people skills.
“So arguing game only works on barsluts and naive virgins is plain bullshit.”
I never argued that. A copied and pasted from a PUA site this, “Who is out of the league of random hot chicks? Pretty much any guy who has scarce resources other chicks care about, such as money, fame, a VIP table, drugs, or a large package.
Now all you have to do is have a bro who introduces you as having at least one of these things and BAM – chick is yours.”
Its the argument of a PUA.
I can tell you this, negs do not work on me, but the type of thing Nityama does, provided its not staged, as well as his views on women and relationships that run contrary to both pop PUA and the opinions of many men here, would work. But how many men do and think like Nityama?
Liza, some very simple Yes or No questions:
– Do you like confident men?
– Do you like when men supplicate?
– If you met some ordinary guy (5’9″, slight paunch, average dresser) at a bar and he bought you, say, 3 drinks right in a row as he was chatting you up, do you think that this would help the dating/mating process?
– If you were at a friends party, speaking to a group of friends, say, 3 girls and 3 guys, and some other guy (one of the host’s friends that you had never met before) came over and within a few seconds obviously laser-beamed his attention on you, would this be attractive, or slightly uncomfortable?
I am hoping that you can see where I am going with this.
When you see the word “Game”, replace it with this concept: a man attempting to be more comfortable, relaxed and attractive to girls.
And, as we all know, some attempts are better than others.
“The fact of the matter is, it’s hard to trust women nowadays given how slutty the average girl is. And it’s pretty pointless to commit to a girl you don’t really trust when you can get pussy so easily nowadays without having to commit. I’ve been thinking about ending things with my girlfriend simply because of this fact. I simply don’t like/trust her sexual history and, in turn, future ability to be loyal; and I feel like the last year and a half was a waste when I could’ve stayed a PUA and be swimming neck-deep in pussies.”
You don’t like her sexual history but you are aspiring to have a sexual history for yourself that you think will mirror her’s? Is that what you call the hamster around these parts?
“Hmmm, I’ve actually heard several stories to the contrary. There are several prominent male bloggers who used to be PUAs or at least believers in Game who have divorced themselves completely from it for the exact reasons you describe.”
I seriously don’t think those guys regretted sleeping around the way women do. They simply got to a point where they realized that they needed to grow up and pursue a more meaningful lovelife. But the thing is, it was from sleeping around that they gained the power to do so. It’s a power that they didn’t have as an AFC. AFCs simply don’t have the power or choice to pursue a meaningful lovelife. So I don’t think any of those PUAs regretted ever being PUAs, they simply regretted not taking the next step toward manhood sooner. I would argue that being PUAs actually gave them the self-worth to know exactly what they wanted as a man and the power to pursue it. Many female sluts, on the other hand, wish that they never were sluts. Because for women, sleeping around is a dead end that yields no power. It’s a different kind of regret and depression.
–
Also, Anon. I think you have a pretty primitive, caricature-like interpretation of a PUA. The average PUA nowadays isn’t dressed like Mystery walking around spinning fake routines and negging people. Anyone who went to college knows that that shit doesn’t work. Game has evolved A LOT since The Game was written.
“You don’t like her sexual history but you are aspiring to have a sexual history for yourself that you think will mirror her’s? Is that what you call the hamster around these parts?”
Her number is 9. My number is 25-30 (I stopped counting after 17). And I don’t think you know what a spinning hamster is.
Jones, please comment more! I’m also getting sick of reading about the “hamster” and all-too-simple explanations of human behavior. While I initially enjoyed looking at this stuff through the SMP dynamic lens, getting into posts like “is Adam an alpha or a sigma or a delta or a gamma? if he’s a sigma shouldn’t he be getting with a 10, not Hannah?” makes me want to tear my hair out.
Ramble,
Do you like confident men?
Yes.
Do you like when men supplicate?
No.
If you met some ordinary guy (5’9″, slight paunch, average dresser) at a bar and he bought you, say, 3 drinks right in a row as he was chatting you up, do you think that this would help the dating/mating process?
No.
If you were at a friends party, speaking to a group of friends, say, 3 girls and 3 guys, and some other guy (one of the host’s friends that you had never met before) came over and within a few seconds obviously laser-beamed his attention on you, would this be attractive, or slightly uncomfortable?
Yes.
As for why the show is not set in Salt Lake City or Cleveland– because that would be boring.
Also, I would not recommend that guys be like Ray. I thought Ray conducted himself with very little dignity, hence the snooping around, passive-aggressive performance of Hannah’s Diary, and again, passive-aggressive trying to avoid Marnie when she first comes into the coffeeshop (also, he looks like he’s thirty and apparently works in a coffeeshop). Charlie’s also much much more physically attractive, and if he grew a spine he’d be more overall attractive.
I actually think Adam is decently attractive. I don’t see anything weird about his body.
“Also, Anon. I think you have a pretty primitive, caricature-like interpretation of a PUA. The average PUA nowadays isn’t dressed like Mystery walking around spinning fake routines and negging people. Anyone who went to college knows that that shit doesn’t work. Game has evolved A LOT since The Game was written.”
I already said yesterday if someone like Sasha Cobra is being promoted by Ross Jeffries, there has been some evolvement. PUA is splitting into two sometimes overlapping branches now – mainstream self help and new age taoist energy work sexuality. It is this second branch that is at complete odds with an attitude like your’s.
“Her number is 9. My number is 25-30″
So why do you want to break up with her, exactly?
Liza, that’s all.
So, imagine, over the next few weeks, you meet some man and you really fall for each other.
And, down the line, you have a conversation with him where you find out that when he was, oh, 14 his older brother, an uncle and some friends beat into his brain that he should not act like a little bitch when he is around girls, and try to buy their affection with drinks and shower them with attention hoping that they will return the favor.
Would you think that this was a bad thing or a good thing?
If you think it was a good thing, then you were in favor of this man being taught some “game” early on.
I don’t take Ross Jeffries seriously. Any guy who teaches hypnotizing women in order to get into their pants is not a PUA. He’s a fucking criminal. So it’s not a surprise that I’ve never heard of that Sasha girl until you came along. I don’t care how that “school” of PUA evolved. To me they’re not even PUAs to begin with.
“So why do you want to break up with her, exactly?”
Because her number is 9. And I have the ability to get a girl with a much lower number. One I can actually trust.
“However, a lot of those guys (i.e. T. Max and G. Clooney) report that after some years of living a promiscuous lifestyle they only ended up feeling lonely and empty.”
Tucker Max was clearly off his rocker in law school. My roomate nearly inserted him into a fireplace once.
“And, down the line, you have a conversation with him where you find out that when he was, oh, 14 his older brother, an uncle and some friends beat into his brain that he should not act like a little bitch when he is around girls, and try to buy their affection with drinks and shower them with attention hoping that they will return the favor.”
So not trying to buy people off is what you call “game”? Now I’ve heard it all!
There is literally tons of PUA material available both for free and at a hefty price online. There’s much more to it then simply not buying people off.
Now, Liza, if you are turned off by some dude wearing guyliner approaching you and running some script he just read in Mystery’s book, fair enough. But, if it turns out that this moron was even more clueless before that moment, and this was his first step towards approaching with more confidence, as a man, I am going to be sympathetic to his plight.
And maybe, if I have the opportunity, I can take him aside and tell him a few things.
“Because her number is 9. And I have the ability to get a girl with a much lower number. One I can actually trust.”
And with your number being over 20, why should she trust you?
Sure, there is more to “Game” then simply not supplicating with constantly buying her drinks. But, for some guys, it is a start. And, I was simply trying to paint a picture for Liza, one that might have felt realistic.
Ramble,
Would you think that this was a bad thing or a good thing?
Guys being taught that supplicating behavior is counterproductive to getting a woman to like them is actually a good thing. I am all for it.
I just hate when game is used to instill fear or make a woman feel insecure and unsure of herself. How can a woman be enthused about being with a guy that makes her feel that way? I know I would not be.
“Guys being taught that supplicating behavior is counterproductive to getting a woman to like them is actually a good thing. I am all for it.”
PUAs will say that pickup tactics might work to get a girl’s attention, but getting a girl to like you for who you are is a whole other ball of wax and one which “game” does not cover.
“And with your number being over 20, why should she trust you?”
Because I don’t care if she trusts me or not. I don’t go around begging girls to be in relationships with me because I’m trustworthy. Girls, on the other hand, uses trust as a selling point to get into relationships with me. It’s a different dynamic.
@Liza207
Apparently they don’t have much humanity either or you’d ask why she didn’t let him dump her instead of begging him not to do it so she could do it herself.
underdog, so the issue is that she sold you on trust and not her number? if so then why bring the number up at all?
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