Filtering For Players and Cads

May 22, 2012

Very attractive women get a lot of attention from cads and players. In a vestige of assortative mating among the beautiful people, the men most desired by women will at least occasionally try to supplement their “one and done” conquests with women of their own sexual market value. The highest value “target” is a super hot babe who isn’t promiscuous. 

Everything else being equal, the better looking a woman is, the less likely she is to indulge in casual sex. Unlike her male counterpart, who finds himself deluged with offers for what he prizes most (sexual variety), the beautiful woman finds herself the loneliest girl at the ball. David Buss, in The Evolution of Desire, explains why the most attractive women are loath to sell themselves short in the relationship market:

Those who hold valuable resources do not give them away cheaply or unselectively. Evolution favored women who were highly selective about their mates. If a woman walked away from a casual encounter pregnant, she bore the costs of that decision for decades afterward. Today, the pill alters that cost. But sexual psychology evolved over millions of years. We still possess this underlying sexual psychology even though our environment has changed.

… Men’s low standards for [casual sex] reveal a precise strategy to gain access to a variety of partners. 

According to Buss, the floor of male attraction for no-strings sex is characterized by the following female traits:

  1. A low sex drive
  2. Physical unattractiveness
  3. Need for commitment
  4. Hairiness

Bwahahahaha! I’ve known some women fitting 2-4 who bedded players. Beauty is just a lightswitch away!

Of course, everything else never is equal, and some women, including very good looking women, choose to play in the promiscuous pool. Genetic traits, family history, and self-esteem are all correlated to promiscuity in women. 

By and large, though, the women with the highest sexual market value will demand commitment (of emotion or resources) in exchange for sex. Problematically, the men most likely to approach them are the men least willing to make the trade. If cads and players wore signs like marathoners wear numbers, filtering out these opportunists would be easy, if somewhat tedious. In a college environment, a woman can easily steer clear of cads, or make inquiries when necessary to get the scoop on a guy’s MO. After graduation this becomes considerably more difficult. Short of having her knees wired shut, what’s a good looking girl to do?

Of all the stories I hear from readers, I estimate that between one-third and one-half of them are from women who incorrectly judged a man’s character and got burned in the process. With assholes pretending to be good guys, and good guys pretending to be assholes, the lines have become very blurred. Still, women are the gatekeepers to sex, and it is always the female’s responsibility to adequately screen men for honest intent. 

The tried and true method of delaying sex until you know “what it is we’re doing” is still your best bet. But a girl can waste a lot of time and get pretty attached to a guy during that period, only to find out he “wasn’t trying to turn this into anything.” This weekend a young woman shared her method for filtering out players and it’s probably the best one I’ve heard. She’s used it to great effect several times. Unfortunately, every single one of the guys has turned out to want nothing from her but sex, which sucks. She’d love for just one guy to make it through the filter. Of course, nothing is foolproof and a clever cad could sneak through, but she recognizes the enormous value of having a standard that cads are unlikely to meet. 

“Be less interested or more interested.”

Grace met Brady in an orientation program at work. (They had just started working for the same company, but not the same department.) They hit it off, but she learned he was still with his college girlfriend, so she kept her distance. He didn’t act flirtatious or shady, so she figured he was a good guy. A couple of months after the program ended, he asked her out for coffee to catch up, and took the opportunity to mention that he had broken up with his girlfriend. As they walked back to work, he casually said, “We should hang out sometime.” 

Brady began to text Grace just about every weekend. He was always wondering where she was and whether she wanted to come meet him. Since she was with her own friends, she declined the opportunity to hop in a cab and join him on the other side of town. At a Marathon Monday party held by a coworker, Brady was very attentive and when he walked Grace to her car, he told her how much he’d enjoyed seeing her outside the office and asked if he could kiss her. 

Grace: “I don’t think that’s a good idea. Things could get awkward at work.”

Brady: “I don’t share your concern.”

Grace: (laughing) “Oh really? Why is that?”

Brady: “Because there are only two ways things could get awkward. One is if I tell anyone else our business, and the other is if I act like a dick. I have no intention of doing either.”

They kissed. That night Brady sent Grace a text: I want more 😉

Brady continued to text Grace frequently, always spontaneously. He usually initiated texting once he was already out, inviting her over. In some ways Grace felt singled out for attention by this handsome young man. He was motivated, in touch, consistent, and undeterred. He began checking in to see how her day was, say good night, etc. He invited her over for a glass of wine, and asked when he would get to see her apartment. In some ways, Grace felt that she’d gotten to know Brady pretty well, and he certainly had been making his interest clear over the past three months. 

One night Brady confronted Grace (by text of course) about her unwillingness to take their relationship to the next step. He told her he was tired of putting in all the effort if she wasn’t going to give him a shot.

Grace: “You need to be less interested or more interested.”

Brady: “What does that mean?”

Grace: “Your effort is consistent but half-assed.”

Brady: “Half-assed? What the hell. Why would you even say that. I’ve been trying to get with you for months.”

Grace: “Exactly. You want to see me? Let’s meet for dinner one night at 7:00. Let’s go for a run. Don’t text me late night when you’re already out with your friends. Either stop contacting me completely or step up your game.”

This just happened, so I don’t know the outcome yet, but Grace feels certain she won’t be receiving any more attention from Brady. In fact, she thinks it’s entirely possible a lot of those texts were group texts. 

Many women convince themselves that a consistent level of attention over a period of time means the guy’s intentions point toward a relationship instead of a hookup. In fact, months of low quality attention is worthless. You’d be better off without it. You’d benefit if he were less interested.

If he does want something real, he’ll step up and ask you out in a legit way, eager to demonstrate he’s not a player. He’d be more interested.

  • Escoffier

    I don’t get this. Sounds like he is putting in all the effort and she is putting in none. I can see why he is irritated at her response.

    I’ve been through this with girls, they are happy to receive attention, they don’t exactly friendzone you, but they make no effort of their own. If you’re not calling, emailing, stopping by, etc., you will never see them. I typically walked away after a few weeks of that.

    • Hey everyone –

      I wrote this post this a.m. and then was traveling most of the day, so I’m chiming in late. There are lots of interesting comments already and several new commenters, which pleases me so much!

      I’ll respond to individual comments as best I can, but let me just say that I am almost sure Brady is a player. Here are the signs, IMO:

      1. OTC is right – he had a very smooth reply for the concern about dating someone from work.
      2. “I want more” followed by a winky face has an overtly sexual implication that was inappropriate for the level of time the two had spent together (almost none).
      3. In four months, he has never attempted to make plans ahead of time.
      4. In suggesting they meet up, which is definitely one way that young people socialize, he never offered to come to where she was. He always suggested that she make her way to his location late at night.
      5. The less enthusiasm she shows, the more he shows. He’s on a quest.

      A couple of things about Grace:

      She has no interest in having him pay for anything. She suggested meeting for dinner or going for a run. They both have jobs at the same company, most likely with similar salaries. They’re the same age. She does not expect to be wined and dined, but she finds it very suspicious that Brady has never sought her company alone before late night. She’d be delighted if he suggested a drink after work, or a walk in the city – any plan would be fine.

      Texting someone spontaneously is always a risky plan. Odds are they’re busy at 11 on a Saturday night. If you really want to see someone, you’re not going to leave it to chance that way.

      I think Brady is used to girls meeting him more than halfway. Grace describes him as quite handsome and self-assured. He’s only interested because she’s the rare girl who hasn’t fallen for his BS.

  • Kaikou

    @Eff why is he only texting her when he is out already? No plans ahead of time. Also mentioning he wants more and to see her apartment? Come on. Clearly a player…

    I have a guy who has been texting me every month. Surprisingly it’s always on his day off and always at night. Also it never asks anything just makes statements with a smiley face with sunglasses at the end. Can someone say mass texts?

    I also lately have seen him out after not seeing him for months. I always blow him off and he makes a point of saying hi to me when clearly I am ignoring. Again player.

    I hope that Grace holds her ground. If he wants to be with her (longterm/seriously) – she wouldn’t have to tell him how to improve. The effort would be there.

  • Abbot

    “The highest value “target” is a super hot babe who isn’t promiscuous. ”

    Every man’s dream, especially when its time for a wife. It can be achieved with varying degrees of effort depending on planetary location.

  • Escoffier

    What is a mass text? Is that when a guy sends ambiguous words to a bunch of different women, all blind copied, just to see who will write back?

  • Abbot

    “If cads and players wore signs like marathoners wear numbers, filtering out these opportunists would be easy, if somewhat tedious.”

    If promiscuous women wore signs like marathoners wear numbers, filtering out these gear-shifters would be easy and all men would commit to appropriate women.

  • Marie

    I completely agree with this, but I think Grace was foolish to let it get to that point where she needs to confront him about their get togethers.
    The guy should ask you on an actual date from the beginning. Choose the restaurant, chose a date asap and set the hour after her schedule. Meet, eat and chat for 2-3 hours. That’s a date. Don’t drink too much. You’ll learn so much more about what kind of guy he is than if you just ‘meet up’.
    Speak in person or over the phone. If he texts, ask him to call. Don’t reply to texts after 11 pm whatsoever. Even if you’re probably not asleep, advertise yourself as the kind of girl who is asleep by then.

    A lot of guys want to ‘hang out’, sit in the couch, order in pizza and watch a movie. Many also feel more comfortable and relaxed if their mates are coming along. That doesn’t make them bad people, I love those nights too, but that comes after a few “dates”, not before.
    I know so many girls with specific ‘rules’ on when to sleep with a guy, knowing each other for so and so long. What matters is the specific effort he makes, how much he goes out of his way. I actually don’t prefer to start as friends and move on to lovers, it makes it easier for guys to leave things in a gray area. Spotting a player can be hard, but I find that those who appear ‘good’ through 3 long, sober dinner dates usually are.

    • @Marie

      What matters is the specific effort he makes, how much he goes out of his way.

      Exactly. The effort he expends should clearly indicate what he is interested in. If he is willing to consider a relationship should the right girl come along, then he loses a lot by treating a new interest in a way that dangerously resembles a booty call.

      Women too often confuse length of effort (4 months) with degree of effort (4 on a scale of 1-10). If Brady had made the right kind of effort from the start, these two would have been a couple long ago. He knows that, which is why he didn’t do it, IMO.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Escoffier,
    I suppose the irritation would–it should–depend on whether the woman was acting as if the attention was having a positive impact. If she implied that, and then backed off, that’s one thing.
    If, on the other hand, she said or did nothing but respond neutrally to his contacts, he has no gripe except with himself.
    The woman’s suggestion he bail or step up his game tells him he’s inadequate–which nobody likes to hear–and that, simultaneously, he’d be a prospect if he stepped up his game. Which is equally infuriating, since he’s not capable of stepping up his game and he knows it.
    Lots to dislike in his position, none of it her fault.
    It was, however, a useful filter.

  • Jon

    I’m not just looking for casual sex, but I’d probably fail that test too because I have a policy of not investing too heavily in a woman without some kind of reciprocation on her part. I generally try to mirror her level of interest.

    The only warning sign I saw was that he was always spontaneous and texting when he was already out.

    But as far as him half-assing it, well, she was too.

  • Beth

    First time commenter here. I have to say, good for Grace. I’ve dated for a loooong time, and this is a half-assed attempt to “get with” her if I’ve ever seen one. The sad truth is that most women will justify this behavior to themselves and perhaps over-inflate its signifigance, when in reality this is not a serious attempt to date her. This is an attempt to see what he can get with the least amount of effort. Most women are burned several times from mistaking this as genuine effort before they realize that a man who is interested will ask you out on a real date, period. This guy isn’t even a very good player, frankly – true players know that the most highly desireable women expect to be asked out on a real date, and they will take a woman out on a couple of real dates in the beginning in order to successfully manipulate her and make her think their interest is genuine.

    • @Beth

      Welcome, thanks for commenting!

      Most women are burned several times from mistaking this as genuine effort before they realize that a man who is interested will ask you out on a real date, period.

      Exactly. Women cannot afford to give a man the benefit of the doubt. In an era of gender equality, women cannot expect men to demonstrate interest by spending money on them, in my opinion. That leaves just one option for sussing out a guy’s motives: his actions. Many women do indeed get burned several times – a rather costly error that can ratchet your number up rather quickly without your ever having actually gotten commitment from a guy.

  • Susan,

    Very good post. 🙂

    “Every man’s dream, especially when its time for a wife…”

    However, a non players/decent guy’s nightmare because most don’t/won’t have the nads to approach her for a relationship.

    Men are supposed to be hunters. Women don’t hunt.

  • Kaikou

    @Jon

    Do you want low quality babes or high quality low promiscuous ones? Sorry you’ll eventually have to put in more effort. Women put in the more effort post marriage (ideally).

    If the babe is hot and a catch more than likely she is traditional and needs someone who will SHOW he is interested.

    • @Kaikou

      Welcome to you too!

      If the babe is hot and a catch more than likely she is traditional and needs someone who will SHOW he is interested.

      I agree. Women with very high SMV are not the ones scheming about snagging a guy for a hookup. They’re also very big losers in this SMP, as their natural mates are otherwise occupied with women of more relaxed standards for sex. As such, they know that the men who would have happily “gone steady” with them in a bygone era are mostly players now. A beautiful woman has to have her bitch shield up every minute. Meanwhile, less dominant guys are unlikely to approach, so she doesn’t have a shot with them either unless she is willing to initiate, which you’ve noted is not generally the case.

  • Kaikou

    @Beth totally agree

  • Richard Aubrey

    Kaikou,
    While simultaneously intimidating a substantial proportion of the guys who see her. Not a bad idea, filtering out the wimps. Problem is, buttheads aren’t intimidated. So she gets good guys approaching, and buttheads. Saves time with the rest, I suppose, but might give her a skewed idea of men in general.

  • “…true players know that the most highly desireable women expect to be asked out on a real date, and they will take a woman out on a couple of real dates in the beginning in order to successfully manipulate her and make her think their interest is genuine…”
    —–
    Beth,

    Yes, real players will most times offer to wine and dine a very attractive woman upfront. But if he does not bed her by date three (and that is pushing it) he is gone.

  • Kaikou

    @ Richard

    I see your point, but what does intimidating mean anyway? In this case, man intimidated by a woman? He was never on her level anyway if he is okay with being “intimidated”.

    To me intimidated is code for I am just not into you (or attracted). You make me feel weak rather than build me up stronger.

    A complete male stranger shouldn’t be looking to be built up from the start. If so he was no value to her and her future.

  • Kaikou

    @Richard

    Re: the buttheads, bad boys, and booboo heads (wimps) comment…

    That is the work of a highly valued woman. There are systems in place to protect her (usually family), but she does have to deal with more hits. So what?!

  • Vae Victus

    You don’t understand.

    Nobody dates anymore. If they get together, they do it by ‘hanging out’ or hooking up.

    And if a guy is bold and asks for a date, the girl will flake on him because it’s just so different. She will think he is too aggressive.

    • @Vae Victus

      Nobody dates anymore. If they get together, they do it by ‘hanging out’ or hooking up.

      And if a guy is bold and asks for a date, the girl will flake on him because it’s just so different. She will think he is too aggressive.

      That’s fine, I think Grace would be happy to hang out. They could fly a kite, or walk the dog, or go to a party together. They could plan at 8 pm to definitely meet up at a certain place later with their respective friend groups. People do it all the time.

      Grace and Brady were already attracted to one another. She gave him considerable encouragement when he suggested hanging out. He then proceeded to text her at the last minute on several occasions. She found it a very clear indication that he was looking for a hookup, which she was not interested in. I think she is surprised that he has been so tenacious.

  • Nobody dates anymore. If they get together, they do it by ‘hanging out’ or hooking up.
    —-
    Men who often date (or bed) very attractive women (not girls) know that those women have certain expectations.

    If you wanted to obtain something you felt was highly valuable, wouldn’t you pull out all the stops in order to get it?

  • modernguy

    Is this girl a virgin waiting for marriage?

    Because otherwise, how is she any different from the multitude of women who identify as “non-promiscuous” because they prefer serial monogamy and “relationships” with no binding commitments to multiple simultaneous partners?

    Eventually a guy with slower moving game or more sophisticated game will come along and when he’s bored of hitting it he’ll move on. Or the relationship will end through any of the myriad other ways that they do these days. All her “strategy” does is to filter out the lowest level of college game player who thinks hitting up a girl for a booty call constitutes game. Beyond that it’s counterproductive because she’s essentially pushing for guys to remove mystery from the process, and to top it off she’s not reciprocating with her own interest, which is going to push away any man with a clue and make him more reluctant to invest time and energy.

    But basically the question is what is the measure of success for her? If it’s marriage, the strategy is simple: date normally, invest your own time and money into your dates as you expect them to do for you and be open and firm about waiting. Otherwise she’s just another little princess who expects men to lay down the red carpet for nothing – no guarantees and nothing special. At some point every man gets tired of hitting the same ass week in week out, so what else do you bring to the table?

    • @modernguy

      Because otherwise, how is she any different from the multitude of women who identify as “non-promiscuous” because they prefer serial monogamy and “relationships” with no binding commitments to multiple simultaneous partners?

      Grace is not a virgin, nor is she promiscuous. She has certainly never had multiple (or even 2!) simultaneous partners, which is the very definition of promiscuity.

      Beyond that it’s counterproductive because she’s essentially pushing for guys to remove mystery from the process, and to top it off she’s not reciprocating with her own interest, which is going to push away any man with a clue and make him more reluctant to invest time and energy.

      How has she demanded that mystery be removed from the process? Is there nothing between a supplicating guy begging a girl for a date and a manwhore texting her for sex as the bar closes?

      The more that guys believe that all women want players, the more they’ll pursue that strategy. If Brady is pretending to be a player to get Grace tingling, it’s majorly backfired. She thinks he’s a douche. Whether he will take time to evaluate and understand his results is unknown.

  • Kaikou

    @modernguy your post is hilarious, whether it’s true or not is irrelevant because the last sentence is so funny.

  • Kaikou

    I don’t get it…we now live where men can get free sex anywhere anytime really. So why are you mad at this girl? Why does she have to be a virgin for marriage? Maybe just maybe (gasp) she has high standards because she is HIGH quality. If you think every woman is doing this these days you are a sore loser and live in an alternative reality. If she wants to twittle her thumbs let her. Again she is HIGH quality, I don’t think it’s hurting her much. You just want her to lower her standards so that you have reach. Sorry should have been born taller.

  • modernguy

    Oh Yeah! She is HIGH QUALITY!

    Err, what does that mean by the way? Are you trying to tell me that because she’s not tattooed head to toe and blowing the football team that I or any other man would be lucky at the chance to wife her up? Sorry I’m HIGH QUALITY, my standards are better than that.

  • “…so what else do you bring to the table?”

    As a man who is seeking marriage/long-term relationship, he should have this question answered on the first date or hang out or whatever.

  • Wants to know

    Wow, great advice! I just entered the dating scene and would’ve never seen the cad coming like Grace did! I would’ve been so excited and txted him right back, Any more advice about warning signs and what to look out for would be greatly appreciated. The best and only advice I’ve gotten is keep my legs close and date for a mate.

    • @Wants to know

      Welcome, and stick around. I give lots of warnings here!

  • Abbot

    ” because she’s not tattooed head to toe and blowing the football team that I or any other man would be lucky at the chance to wife her up?”

    THAT is the low bar women want you to have today so they can at least have a chance. Men who show up with higher standards for life-mate selection are both feared and shamed.

  • Kaikou

    @modernguy what does “intimidated” mean (man intimidated by a woman)?

    Also don’t worry about her because she was never on your radar to begin with:

    “Beyond that it’s counterproductive because she’s essentially pushing for guys to remove mystery from the process, and to top it off she’s not reciprocating with her own interest, which is going to push away any man with a clue and make him more reluctant to invest time and energy.” – Modern Guy

    Sounds to me that you are an advocate of the chase (women to men). This lady is not. So again you aren’t even suitable mates to begin with. Let’s just call her different quality then.

  • “At some point every man gets tired of hitting the same ass week in week out, so what else do you bring to the table?”

    So exactly what else does Grace bring to the dating and relationship table? Is she sweet, pleasant, and feminine? Does she view Brady’s wants and desires to be equal to her own? Until we know more about Grace’s personality, she’s nothing more than an empty vessel that Brady seeks to fill (yeah, that’s a double entendre).

    Guys who finally figured out the deal (Red Pill wisdom) fall into two basic categories:

    1. Players who simply don’t care what a girls offers other than sex. These guys won’t be particularly observant about a girl’s character. They just want sex and will quickly move on.

    2. Guys looking for sex AND signs that a woman has good character. Sure, these guys won’t pass up the opportunity for casual sex, but as they are looking far more closely at a girl’s character to see what she offers in addition to her sexuality.

    A woman on the receiving end of some woo-pitching needs to be keenly observant to how a man is evaluating her. A player won’t care about her personality unless she’s truly repellant.

    Red Pill men are a cagey lot and won’t put up with any bullshit such as demanding behaviors, shit tests, and sundry flakiness. Such guys know they have options and deal with women accordingly.

    • @Private Man

      So exactly what else does Grace bring to the dating and relationship table? Is she sweet, pleasant, and feminine? Does she view Brady’s wants and desires to be equal to her own? Until we know more about Grace’s personality, she’s nothing more than an empty vessel that Brady seeks to fill (yeah, that’s a double entendre).

      Isn’t that what dating is for? To explore the value and compatibility of a potential mate? We know that the minute Brady was back on the market he called Grace for coffee. There was strong attraction. His next communication was a late night text “inviting” her to grab a cab and meet him out at a bar. I believe she immediately suspected that Brady’s wants and desires were strictly of the short-term carnal variety.

      Until Brady knows more about Grace’s personality, he should treat her with the civility and respect we afford every other human being in social relationships. He is not required to court her or spend money on her, and she is certainly not required to hightail it to wherever he is, a clear signal that she is DTF.

      Red Pill men are a cagey lot and won’t put up with any bullshit such as demanding behaviors, shit tests, and sundry flakiness. Such guys know they have options and deal with women accordingly.

      He was the demanding and flakey one, not her. Her final ultimatum to him was not a shit test, by the way. A shit test is a test that the woman wants the man to fail – in order to show her that he isn’t pussy whipped. I can assure you that this guy’s “failing” the test by continuing to contact her without asking her out is going to get him nowhere. He passes the test only by leaving her alone completely or stepping up. She’s clearly prepared for either eventuality.

  • Kaikou

    @abbot let’s just say some of us take this more personally than others.

    Your last sentence is gold btw. Anyone who differs from the norm (men wanting a wife or women not being promiscuous) in this society are the losers according to some.

  • Kaikou

    @modernguy

    Is mystery a feminine or masculine trait?

  • deti

    INteresting post and comment thread.

    This all gets back to the current dating scene, which is essentially combat dating. It’s everyone for themselves, everyone minimizing their own outlay of capital (for men, time and money; for women, sex) before the other person puts his/her cards on the table.

    Women are still demanding formal dates and courtship. IOW, they want his investment — his time, his money, his resources; and they want those things before they respond with sex. Women want those things for many reasons — a show of good faith; a display of genuine interest; a display of his provisioning ability. She gets the free meal, entertainment, and drinks; but what does he get? Women want the old courtship rituals, but they don’t want to respond and give the man what he wants (escalating sexual involvement). Courtship has been abused beyond all repair.

    Men are wising up to this — even betas and even men just learning game. Men are using two things to find out whether a woman is worth their investment: (1) pushing for sex hard and early; and (2) sharply limiting investment before sex. The first is to find out if she is interested — if she is truly interested in him (not his money, not a free date, but interested in HIM) she will respond sexually. The second is to preserve limited resources and reserve them only for women who will give him what he wants. After all, why should a man invest time, money and resources in a woman BEFORE he finds out her interest level?

    • @deti

      Women want the old courtship rituals, but they don’t want to respond and give the man what he wants (escalating sexual involvement).

      The trade has never been sex for courtship. The trade is sex for commitment. Courtship is just shopping. A woman who has sex (and the accompanying risk of pregnancy and disease) as the payment for a meal at Applebee’s is batshit insane.

      Men are using two things to find out whether a woman is worth their investment: (1) pushing for sex hard and early;

      So pushing for sex before the first date is tight Game? How does a man qualify a woman for investment by doing this for months without attempting to spend non-sexual time with her?

      2) sharply limiting investment before sex. The first is to find out if she is interested — if she is truly interested in him (not his money, not a free date, but interested in HIM) she will respond sexually.

      Grace is (or was) interested in Brady. Truly, really interested in getting to know him. She felt great anticipation about his initial expression of interest. She doesn’t need his money, doesn’t need any man to buy her a meal or a drink.

      Grace is not interested in seeing Brady’s penis before she knows what kind of man he is. She is attracted to him, but has no good sense of his character, intentions, or LTR fitness.

      Grace is doing everything exactly as she should. She’s a beautiful girl with a very low number based on two serious past relationships. Rapid sexual escalation with a woman of very high SMV (and MMV) is a losing strategy. Of course, if Brady is only looking for sex, there’s little cost to him in her rejection. If he wanted a relationship, though, he blew it.

  • deti

    Liza207:

    “If you wanted to obtain something you felt was highly valuable, wouldn’t you pull out all the stops in order to get it?”

    Nope. Not any more. Looking back over my life, I’ve known three women who were “highly valuable”. In today’s SMP and the level of game they required, the work isn’t worth it.

  • deti

    Kaikou:

    “we now live where men can get free sex anywhere anytime really.”

    Not even close. It’s more like about 5% of men can get free sex anywhere anytime.

  • Kaikou

    @Deti

    Does sexual interest mean intercourse? And if not, what are other ways?

  • Kaikou

    @ Deti (#33)

    Modernguy knows tattoo girls giving blowjobs in locker rooms. If it isn’t him, he’s watching I guess.

    I will correct my statement as free sexual fulfillment either by being the 5%, watching the 5%, or porn.

  • Wants to know

    @modernguy

    Just what is High quality to you? It sounds like it wouldn’t matter what kind of girl she is, you’ve already categorized her like you have all women unworthy.

  • deti

    Kaikou:

    “Does sexual interest mean intercourse? And if not, what are other ways?”

    You don’t really need this explained, do you? It means escalating physical sexual involvement. Doesn’t have to be a ONS or a SNL. But were I in the dating scene, anyone I was dating would have to show strong sexual interest in me before I opened my wallet for anything more than carryout pizza and a movie rental, or committed more than a couple of hours.

    • But were I in the dating scene, anyone I was dating would have to show strong sexual interest in me before I opened my wallet for anything more than carryout pizza and a movie rental, or committed more than a couple of hours.

      For a woman, attraction is sexual interest, but the outcome is very uncertain. The man must be qualified before the sexual interest can safely be expressed. A woman who is clearly interested in a man, including sexually, will respond positively to flirtation, contact, conversation, and invitations to spend time together. If a woman is sending those signals, and kisses you eagerly early in the relationship, you should assume she is sexually attracted and will express those feelings when it is safe to do so.

  • Kaikou

    Questions for men:

    1. What does it mean to be “intimidated” by a woman?
    2. How to show sexual interest w/o intercourse? Or with simultaneous male investment (if that’s even what she wants)?

    Re: The actual post. It seems to me that Grace responded to his little interest, but never took it to (I want to see your apartment level) because he was lazy. Clearly this guy didn’t really value her (high or low). But I am taking the story at face value.

  • Kaikou

    @Deti

    If a High quality woman responded to all the sexual interest she got, would she still be high quality?

    • @Kaikou

      If a High quality woman responded to all the sexual interest she got, would she still be high quality?

      Of course not! That’s the Catch 22 for women. Put out early or I’ll know you’re not interested. And when you’ve done that, I’ll toss you right into the slut box.

  • Ah, the important question: What is a “high quality” woman in the context of dating and an intimate relationship with a man? This is a question that women are not allowed to answer. That’s because men are the gatekeepers of commitment. For a long term relationship, men are the hiring managers and women are applying for the job.

    Deti covered some of this in his Commandments For Women:

    1. Thou shalt cultivate a feminine demeanor and bearing. Thou shalt not try to be, look like, or act like a man. Thou shalt observe and obey this Commandment above all others.
    2. Thou shalt not use profanity or other coarse language in public.
    3. Thou shalt let the man decide where you will go and what you will do on the first few dates.
    4. Thou shalt not denigrate thy man in public. Ever.
    5. Thou shalt not denigrate or otherwise break bad on thy man to his parents, thy parents, thy coworkers or thy BFFs. Ever.
    6. Thou shalt do some things your man likes to do, such as make his favorite foods, do your hair the way he likes, or wear some clothes he likes.
    7. Thou shalt not let thyself go. Thou shalt give reasonable care and attention to cultivate a pleasing personal appearance.
    8. Thou shalt not try to lead or overrule thy man.
    9. Thou shalt let thy man reciprocate thy kindness.
    10. Thou shalt not act like a princess.

    Full post here:
    http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2011/06/06/an-ugly-social-expectation-and-more-on-female-projection/

    And here’s a little something about the broken social contract between the genders:
    http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2011/08/16/the-broken-gender-social-contract/

  • deti

    Kaikou:

    Female intimidation of men means just this: a very attractive woman has options, and she knows it. She gives off an aura to most men that screams “Don’t even THINK about approaching me or even talking to me, much less asking me to “hang out”. I am out of your league, we both know it, and you have NO CHANCE with me. NONE. I will never, not in a million years, go on a date with you.”

    And most men clearly pick up on that vibe. It’s unmistakable.

  • deti

    Kaikou:

    The flip side of intimidation is that the “buttheads” Richard Aubrey spoke of are not intimidated. Their response to Cupcake’s aura is a refusal to follow the “rules” she lays out. The player says to himself: “Maybe you are out of my league, but I don’t care. Say yes, it’s cool. Say no, that’s cool too.” Then he steps to her and says: “Come over to my place at 8:00 and bring a movie.”

    • Their response to Cupcake’s aura is a refusal to follow the “rules” she lays out. The player says to himself: “Maybe you are out of my league, but I don’t care. Say yes, it’s cool. Say no, that’s cool too.” Then he steps to her and says: “Come over to my place at 8:00 and bring a movie.”

      Exactly! That’s exactly how this has gone down! And Cupcake has said, “Fuck off and leave me alone or get legit.” In the end, she has the last word because she is the least interested.

      One of my favorite stories along these lines is the first meeting between Russell Brand and Katy Perry. He pushed hard for sex the first night, of course. (I think his N is around 2,000.) She balked and he pushed harder. She screamed, “You’ve met your match, motherfucker!” while throwing a bottle at his head. He claims that’s when he fell in love with her. Obviously, that didn’t ultimately work out too well…

  • Kaikou

    @PrivateMan

    I guess than women are the gatekeepers for shortterm. Grace saw this guy was not even worth her short term commitment and she told him.

    How is a guy communicating through text and already planned outings going to receive any of those commandments? Or rather why should he. Back to the actual story at hand. Grace works with the lad so if he wants access he has it. But I suspect that he is not.

    What is an “intimate relationship” in your comment?

    Also I see no where “have intercourse” or show sexual interest because a guy you works with texts you and you suspect he is a Cad and TELL him so.

    Most of the commandments are about showing respect (what men want). Respect starts from within first not last. Maybe Grace’s vessel (Deti) is filled with self-respect that there isn’t room. She is willing to share, but something internally costly worth something externally costly?

  • Wants to know

    @Privateman,
    I like the list, and agree with it, however the reactions I have read on this and a few other post have led me to believe that men don’t have any respect for women at all. I get the reasons for it, but it puts me on the defensive (I think this might me the shit testing you talk about,) which men then get mad about. Seems like a vicious cycle.

  • modernguy

    Kaikou maybe you should read my first comment again, you seem to have taken it more personally than I intended it. It’s a simple question really. What is she looking for, and what is she offering in return? As you said, sex is easy (for the kinds of men she’s interested in), so what sets her apart from the other girls that would merit long term investment, keeping in mind that that itself needs to be defined here? Are we talking about marriage or just a relationship? There is a big difference.

    @Wants to know:

    There are different levels of quality, obviously, based on personality and looks. But what is she asking for here? Is she asking for marriage, or just a casual relationship?

    It’s funny to see all the hysteria that ensues when you ask a woman to qualify herself, especially when she’s really not that different from other girls in her peer group except that she has higher expectations. There is a simple test:

    First, are you a virgin? If you aren’t, you can essentially be disqualified from marriage. There is simply no reason for a man to marry unless he’s marrying a virgin. It’s an exchange of total commitment for total fidelity. There are plenty of men who marry non-virgins of course, but they are basically making a mistake. They aren’t getting anything in exchange.

    Next is how you measure up on looks and personality, which can have all kinds of variables and it will determine what kind of man you can attract.

    There’s a lot of obfuscation around these points but they are belied by the fact that a good looking virgin with a good personality who is holding out for marriage doesn’t need game. Any kind of game. She doesn’t need to make men pay for dinners or dates or anything. She doesn’t need to guage their interest or demand more interest or screen for players. If she’s firm the players will fall off and she can evaluate the ones that remain based on whatever she wants.

    • @modernguy

      I totally respect your preference for a virgin bride. However, it’s so rare in this SMP, as are the women who qualify, that advice along those lines has little utility.

  • Kaikou

    @Deti (#41)

    AND therefore she was never in your league (low or high) because you would either find that masculine or she would pick up on you feeling (un)masculine aka looking to receive not give. Not a match a made in heaven.

    @Deti (#42) bring de movies

  • Richard Aubrey

    deti,
    Good points. The 9/10 women are approached by confident good men and by butthead players who aren’t put off by the “don’t even think it” aura. The latter, despite some version of confidence, are not the same as good men, necessarily.
    The women spoken of are not approached by the in-betweeners.
    Recently, talking to my wife and daughter about such things, they remarked on women they knew whom I knew and by extension women I didn’t know back in the day.
    They were 9/10, or at least, say, 7/8 with huge chests. When they got to college, they decided to pull it back. No makeup, pony tails, floppy sweatshirts.
    Or, in other situations, the “aura”.
    Whatever it took to get through the day.

  • Kaikou

    @modernguy

    Reveals his hand at #45. I won’t commit towards you anymore. Sorry I misinterpreted you.

  • Cooper

    Re: “Be less interested or more interested.”

    Don’t get me wrong, as a guy I don’t like shit test – not one bit. From a guys perspective, I wouldnt have enjoyed getting this text.
    That being said, “I want to ‘more interested'” is definitely want a man of genuine interest would reply with, IMO.

    I can’t say I’m a huge fan of this “holding out” strategy – that’s what it seems like. There are simply far too much loopholes, while at the same time possibly disqualifying fine men.

    1. The persistent players – who is used to shit tests, and will pass with flying colors, cause he’s used to saying all sorts of this, and pretending to being genuinely interested in a LTR might be a small part of his arsenal.
    “holding out” with this guy is only going measure his determination, albeit there will be less with such amount but he’ll still fool you.

    2. The good guy – who isn’t used to this kind of testing. And he might view the girls “emotional unavailablity” as it would be viewed of a man – a sign of her having copious other options. Which for a guy with less experienc (n regards to shit-tests) or high standards himself, is not going to be a motivator.

    There are two ways in which a woman can hold out on a guy: emotional and physical. It seems as though Grace’s strategy was to withhold both.
    Which makes me wonder what, or how much, does she expect for free?

    @Kaikou
    Does High Qaulity mean a man ought to pay in full, upfront?
    It sounds like Grace was withholding emotionally too.

    I think we should acknowledge that a guys can also “find out [she] “wasn’t trying to turn this into anything.” when asking “what it is we’re doing.”
    There is qualifying to be done by both sides.

    Re: group text vs mass text
    I’m not sure if Grace actually thought Brady was “group texting” as far as I know guys do not group text, ESPECIALLY if it were to someone were trying to court. Whereas mass-text is something I’ve only heard players do at late night for booty calls

    • @Cooper

      “holding out” with this guy is only going measure his determination, albeit there will be less with such amount but he’ll still fool you.

      Yes, he may. Women literally cannot be too careful, and men should understand and respect that. Do you recall the recent thread about Jane and Tom? Several men said they didn’t care that Tom had deceived Jane, that the solution is very simple. “Don’t open your legs, sweetheart.”

      In my view, Grace is doing everything she should be doing to keep her legs together while determining the intentions of Brady. Brady’s intentions are far from clear, and lean heavily toward the casual end of the spectrum.

      If Grace accepted one of Brady’s text invites, hopped in a cab at 12:30 a.m. and went across town to a bar where he is with three guys she doesn’t know, how might that work? Is that a good opportunity for Grace and Brady to get to know one another? Conservatively, they’ve probably each had three drinks by then, and they’re not alone – it’s Grace and four guys. After an hour, the bar will close. Brady lives nearby, so naturally he suggests they continue talking there – after all, she just arrived! Or Grace can opt to hail another cab, and go back to her own side of town.

      If Grace goes to Brady’s apartment at 2 a.m., she has nothing to gain, and a lot to lose. Brady has nothing to lose, and a lot to gain.

      If Grace goes home to her own apartment (or doesn’t meet Brady in the first place), she has nothing to gain, and little to lose. Brady has a lot to lose if he wants no-strings sex, and a lot to gain if he wants to date her.

      What is the best course of action for Grace?

      The good guy – who isn’t used to this kind of testing.

      In Grace’s view, the good guy wouldn’t have pursued her this way, and would not have required an ultimatum. The only reason she even gave Brady an option to up his game was on the off chance he is a good guy. In which case, he should stop being an Impostor Asshole and ask her out because she really is attracted.

      I think that if Brady is a good guy who genuinely is interested in more than sex with Grace, he will say to himself, “OK, she thinks you’re just trying to get into her pants, you’ve made her suspicious. She needs some reassurance that this is the real deal. It’s time for comfort moves, not dominance moves.”

  • Kaikou

    @wantstoknow

    A man leads (or so the saying says) so if he doesn’t lead with respect he has none for you or isn’t willing to show it no matter what you do. I’m with you girly.

    Men show me respect and I can show you how I can match it. I feel like that’s what Grace was saying with her (less interest/ more interest) line. Show respect for my time or that I am even worth yours and I will show you how I can match it.

    “A woman places her hand in a man’s palm” not the other way around. He can always let go.

  • Kaikou

    Correction:

    Men show me respect and I can show you how I can match it or better yet do it better.

  • Nope. Not any more. Looking back over my life, I’ve known three women who were “highly valuable”. In today’s SMP and the level of game they required, the work isn’t worth it.

    —-
    deti,

    I was referring to high SMV (looks). I wanted to refrain from injecting myself as an example. However, here goes. Last week, I was asked out for dinner and drinks by a player that was younger than I was (I am in my thirties and he in his twenties). I do not ever remember some guy asking me out without with him offering to take me out on a formal date. Yes, in this day and age.

    So, let me repeat: Men who often date (and bed) very attractive women (high SMV) know that those women have certain expectations because they have been treated a certain by men due to their high SMV and often will not settle. To those men it is not even a question because of their vast experience with these women. Those are the women they often pursue and know what they have to come to the table with in order to get sex and intimacy from them even if is just for the short-term.

    I guess guys who pursue and only hope to attain women who are of low SMV are bewildered by this.

    If you wanted to obtain something you felt was highly valuable, wouldn’t you make every effort to impress in order to get it?

    By the way, I get the impression that many men here may not know what characteristics and traits a quality woman possesses. I really hope I am wrong.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    The fact that they’re both fresh out of college tells you all you need to know about what happened. Brady is using the same strategy that you use with girls when you’re in college, because in college nobody “dates”, they just “hang out”. It sounds like Grace is now thinking “we’re adults, let’s have a proper dinner date” and he’s not on the same page. But as has already been discussed on this blog at some length: traditional dating even among people out of college is on life support.

    When I read this, I felt like we didn’t have a clear picture of what actually went on. It could be that Grace isn’t the type of girl to meet a guy halfway, or that she’s just not that interested in Brady. It sounds like all of the texts came from Brady’s direction and never from Grace. If she wants a relationship, this would be a losing strategy. What can you tell us about Grace’s attitudes with regards to showing interest? What vibe does she give off? I’m asking because this is crucial to know- I could see a lot of girls reading this and thinking that this means they can play hard to get, and that’s not going to help them. This whole getting together thing (I’m not going to use “dating” because it doesn’t apply here yet) is a dance, where both people progressively have to take steps, otherwise it doesn’t work. Just because you have one high card in the deck (i.e. you’re hot) doesn’t mean you can ignore the rest of your hand. Any dude with options and his shit together will consider all that you’re offering and not be willing to bend over backwards just for you. These days, he probably won’t be very willing to employ a strategy (“dinner dating”) that is largely dead.

    So yeah, I’m curious what your honest interpretation is of Grace’s personality because that’s equally important to any strategy she is employing.

    @Kaikou

    2. How to show sexual interest w/o intercourse? Or with simultaneous male investment (if that’s even what she wants)?

    Not that hard if you actually like a guy. Be touchy-feely, find excuses to touch him and be close, and make it clear that you like him in a physical way. That’s assuming you actually DO like him in a physical way. If you don’t, it’s pretty much doomed from jump. One or both of you will lose interest pretty quickly.

    • @BroHamlet

      Brady is using the same strategy that you use with girls when you’re in college, because in college nobody “dates”, they just “hang out”. It sounds like Grace is now thinking “we’re adults, let’s have a proper dinner date” and he’s not on the same page.

      I agree, I think there is a good chance this is at least partially a misunderstanding. However, even in college every guy knows what a booty call is, and that a girl who “comes over” at 1 am is saying yes. My guess is that Brady got into his college relationship via casual hooking up – very much the hookup script. So it may be natural for him to think that’s going to work again. Seduce her, if the sex is great, go for Round 2, etc. etc. Perhaps Brady doesn’t see this as a high risk strategy for Grace.

      Grace has communicated that she is not interested in being booty called, having sex, and seeing where this goes. It’s not surprising that women should want to abandon the hookup script asap after graduating, especially if they never participated. If Brady hasn’t figured that out, he will soon. Meanwhile, this is one more example why a 22 yo girl should not be trying to date a 22 yo boy.

      Re Grace’s level of interest, she has definitely been receptive to texts and conversations. They have had several nice text exchanges. They have had conversations before about doing things together in the future, but according to Grace, there’s been no follow through. Also, FYI, she didn’t just spring the ultimatum on him suddenly. All along, she’s been clearly saying, “I’m not coming out to meet you right now, it’s 1 in the morning and I’m in bed. If you want to grab a bite some evening this week, I’d love to. Let me know.”

      The more I write the more I am convinced he is 100% player. I really hope she just stops answering his texts.

  • deti

    Kaikou:

    “If a High quality woman responded to all the sexual interest she got, would she still be high quality?”

    Trick question. A high quality woman would not in the first place respond to all the sexual interest she received. She has very good filters in place and has finely tuned attraction triggers.

  • Cooper

    Another thing to mention regarding “holding out.” is that many women will adopt this type of filtering for their relationship-life, but not their sex-life.

    I’ve known a few girls that considered it completely OK, to have had casual encounters because they chose and intended them to be such. Yet they’ll also choose to withhold for relationship-filtering purposes.

    If a guy (presumably the LTR-type that your filtering) finds out your withholding more for him, than you have for however many others, well, he surely isn’t going to be flattered. (I say flattered because the girls I’ve known that tried this often would used the excuse “your better than those ones” – “better” doesn’t mean “wait longer”)

  • Herb

    @Abbott

    “If cads and players wore signs like marathoners wear numbers, filtering out these opportunists would be easy, if somewhat tedious.”

    If promiscuous women wore signs like marathoners wear numbers, filtering out these gear-shifters would be easy and all men would commit to appropriate women.

    You forget yourself, a woman’s appropriateness is for her to decide, not the man she chooses.

  • Wants to know

    @Modernguy,
    wow thats some harsh rule about virginity. I wouldn’t be here if my Dad had thought that way, I guess 25yrs. of a great marriage, would never erase my Mom’s one mistake…

    So the basic rules for girls are don’t make any mistakes (like fall for a guy/cad,) never get ugly (don’t have a bad day in public,) and qualify myself from the start, and watch them go running because I’m talking LTR?
    Hummmm I’ll get back to you on that once I’ve spent sometime in the real world.

  • @ Wants to know

    “…led me to believe that men don’t have any respect for women at all”

    This is the primary difference between guys with Red Pill wisdom and rest of the uneducated masses of masculinity. It’s not that Red Pill guys have no respect for women, it’s that our default mode is NOT to automatically pedestalize women. Frankly, women have to earn our respect. We don’t automatically give women respect simply because they are women.

  • deti

    I’m with modernguy and PrivateMan on this issue: It is just fascinating to witness the sturm und drang that inevitably shows up when women are asked to qualify themselves.

    The questions are really quite simple. If women want anything more than flings and STRs in today’s SMP, they had best start coming up with compelling answers.

    What do you bring to the table?

    Why should any man invest time, money and resources in you?

    How will being with or spending time, money and resources on you enhance a man’s life?

    Why should any man take himself off the market and devote his personal intimacies solely to you?
    _______________________________

    Why is it so difficult for women to answer these questions?

    Why do the women on this thread take such offense at these questions even being posed?

  • Dates are not a good way to get women interested, so men have stopped doing it. Nowadays guys want to “hang out” first, and only date if there’s really strong signals of attraction. As a woman, don’t do anything physical in the “hang out” phase. Forget all the advice from men that you should touch him and kiss him. You can do that and get precisely nowhere.

    The most important thing is emotional escalation. The woman should not escalate physically. She should be the one to escalate emotionally. She should start the deeper conversations, ask the probing questions, and disclose her emotions if she feels them (i.e. “I find myself thinking about you all the time” “It makes me happy when you’re near” “I think I might be falling for you”).

    At this point, one of two things will happen. 1) He says the same stuff in return. 2) He hems and haws and avoids emotional escalation with you. If 1), then ask for a relationship, ask about your future, continue escalation to see how far he sees it potentially going (my husband told me he could see me as his wife a few days into this). If 2), eject and leave with +0 to partner count.

    In short, show your hand, but don’t let him take it from you unless he shows his hand, too.

    • @Hope

      She should start the deeper conversations, ask the probing questions, and disclose her emotions if she feels them (i.e. “I find myself thinking about you all the time” “It makes me happy when you’re near” “I think I might be falling for you”).

      …If 2), eject and leave with +0 to partner count.

      I’m a big fan of being open and taking emotional risks, but for many guys today, those kinds of remarks set off “STAGE 5 CLINGER” alarms. It will only work with a guy who’s ready to jump in. If a guy isn’t sure about whether he even wants a relationship, much less with you, then saying those things may actually cause a preemptive dumping.

  • Kaikou

    Who is talking dinner on the first outing?

    Again is it too much to ask for a man to suggest a one-on-one outing of any kind (preferably an activity and possibly one he was going to do anyway – i.e. walk the dog, go for a jog, try that new ice cream spot) NOT text you when he is already out with friends and tell you he wants to see your apartment? I mean come on. Only fools fall in love.

    @Deti # 54

    You caught me. I am the coyote of this tale.

  • Herb

    @Marie

    The guy should ask you on an actual date from the beginning. Choose the restaurant, chose a date asap and set the hour after her schedule. Meet, eat and chat for 2-3 hours. That’s a date. Don’t drink too much. You’ll learn so much more about what kind of guy he is than if you just ‘meet up’.

    I almost agree, but why can’t the bolded part read, “You should ask the guy”.

    One, it speeds up the process (which you noted was an error on Grace’s part). Second, it shows you’re willing to invest as well. Third, it communicates interest.

    Speak in person or over the phone. If he texts, ask him to call. Don’t reply to texts after 11 pm whatsoever. Even if you’re probably not asleep, advertise yourself as the kind of girl who is asleep by then.

    I’ll 90% endorse this. My gf and I communicate a lot by text and by that I mean communicate. If you work in a cube farm and need to communicate at work texts aren’t overheard or scanned like emails. So during working hours if texts are actual conversations I think that’s okay. Also, sometimes they work better if one of us is someplace noisy although that could be age talking.

    A lot of guys want to ‘hang out’, sit in the couch, order in pizza and watch a movie. Many also feel more comfortable and relaxed if their mates are coming along. That doesn’t make them bad people, I love those nights too, but that comes after a few “dates”, not before.

    Again, you’re in the age of equality. If you want dates ask the guy out. Also, indicate a willingness to pay. A lot of guys hear, “I expect a date” and think, “She wants me to buy her stuff”. Too many princess feminists have spoiled the pool especially given the economy is harder on men than women on the whole right now.

    Demanding dates, especially without an indication of willingness to pay, is going to be a fast track to the “put out by date three” track because now you’re demanding investment from me and he’ll want it back.

  • Cooper

    @Liza
    “By the way, I get the impression that many men here may not know what characteristics and traits a quality woman possesses. I really hope I am wrong.”

    It would help if you all came with Odometers.

    *jokes!*

  • Kaikou

    I love BroHamlet.

  • Kaikou

    I love Mr. Cooper too!

  • modernguy

    @Wants to know

    What does you being here have to do with it? Even prostitutes and porn stars have children.

    If your dad was looking to get married nowadays he would be wise to really understand the nature of the “mistake” your mom made and if it was really only one. Everyone has to be on their guard really.

  • Kaikou

    @Deti

    Private Man already said what women should bring. And when she does bring it? How will a guy know if he is just texting her? That’s the real question. At a point everyone takes a step forward and in this day and age it’s not always together (at the start). Doesn’t mean the women should change or the men for that matter it just means they are not on the same level and not compatible. Thumb twittler isn’t compatible with Cliff leaper, you know?

    @Wantstoknow

    There’s a name for guys like Modernguy its the nickname for Charles surname Shoulder

  • modernguy

    If only snide remarks would solve your real-world problems, kaikou…

  • Herb

    @Jon

    I’m not just looking for casual sex, but I’d probably fail that test too because I have a policy of not investing too heavily in a woman without some kind of reciprocation on her part. I generally try to mirror her level of interest.

    The only warning sign I saw was that he was always spontaneous and texting when he was already out.

    But as far as him half-assing it, well, she was too.

    +1

    Why can’t she step up if she’s interested? If she’s not interested why didn’t she just tell him, “I’m not interested, thanks.”

    Women who want LTR anymore need to be willing to take some initiative on their own. Dating is too full of land mines for men in terms of money and time costs, rejection, and social blowback.

    The last one I think is what too many women haven’t grokked. Feminism, in the name of protecting women from abuse, badgering, and other ‘dangerous’ have greatly increased the social cost of cold approaching or misunderstanding the desire of women to be approached. I think Liza’s early issues about thinking she was clearly indicating interest were a perfect example. She just hadn’t been in his shoes where unwanted approaches can get you labeled creepy, where men are hammered with ‘women want to be left alone at the gym’ (to the point where misjudging could cost him his membership), and the odds he’s had blowback at least once before.

    It doesn’t matter if you agree with all the feminist rules or not. Men have to live inside the world they created and that means you are going to have to step up more than even 25 years ago and the passive maiden of 50 years ago is going to be raising cats.

    • The last one I think is what too many women haven’t grokked. Feminism, in the name of protecting women from abuse, badgering, and other ‘dangerous’ have greatly increased the social cost of cold approaching or misunderstanding the desire of women to be approached.

      That’s true, but it seems ridiculous to claim that Brady was reticent in any way about approaching. In fact, he approached repeatedly in a way that suggested he was hoping to get lucky and have sex.

      When a player makes a play, and he gets blown out, he may continue just for fun, especially if he thinks the woman is secretly attracted. He continues the chase for sport. It’s a game – that’s why he’s called a player.

  • Kaikou

    @Hope

    The saving Grace or rather the Great White Hope at #60

    @Herb #62

    Just say you agree. Your not giving up your man card. Your moving up to an unlimited account. ;D

  • Deti, very good points, and all reasons why women should not demand or expect “dates.” There is no rational reason why a man should be expected to shell out resources to wine and dine a woman for a tiny % chance at something panning out with her, and having to do this over and over again spending lots of money on different women.

    My suggestion is for the woman to bring her own game to the table: not demand anything money-wise, but not give anything body-wise. Escalate emotionally rather than physically. Get to know him without asking him to spend a penny. Screen him hard, but also qualify herself hard. Tell him how she can enhance his life, show him what skills she possesses, and demonstrate that her high standards also come with high quality.

  • Wants to know

    @Privateman,
    I like what you have to say, but more importantly how you say it. I’ll take your words to heart. My Dad always says a man should be able to do three things in a marriage, Provide, Protect and Possess. If he can prove to you he can do these things then marry him. To me none of these can happen without the key element of respect.

    @Kaikou, 😉

    @deti,
    If I was asked what I brought to the table would you really want to hear things like loyalty, patience, helpmate, or would you want to know financial aspects (which if I understand correctly are really not that important to men,) or is it physical? Maybe the questions aren’t being asked clearly?

  • Kaikou

    My ears were ringing. Did someone call me? Charles is that you? I don’t mind corresponding with you, but I don’t care too much for the tattooed promiscuous girl, prostitute, or pornstar references that follow you like Pig-Pen.

    All my love, Charles.

    -Kaikou

  • modernguy

    Just keepin it real kaikou.

  • BroHamlet

    Dates are not a good way to get women interested, so men have stopped doing it.

    Yup. But one-on-one outings are fine, they just can’t be boring (obviously). It’s a “date” but by another name, and dinner just sends all the wrong messages lately, which is why it is best for it to be something non-traditional.

    Nowadays guys want to “hang out” first, and only date if there’s really strong signals of attraction. As a woman, don’t do anything physical in the “hang out” phase. Forget all the advice from men that you should touch him and kiss him. You can do that and get precisely nowhere.

    LOL. Really? It sounds like you may be thinking that the hangout phase is when two people are hanging with a group friends, in which case I would agree with you (making out in front of friends = AWKWARD!). That’s not what I’m talking about at all, though. I’m talking about after you’ve met and there is some interest, during a first meetup where it’s just the two of you. A kiss at the end of the night, then some closeness on subsequent outings is exactly how it should be done during this stage if you want him to stay interested. This is part of Girl Game- not to fast or he’ll think “hookup”, not too slow or he’ll lose interest.

    The most important thing is emotional escalation. The woman should not escalate physically. She should be the one to escalate emotionally. She should start the deeper conversations, ask the probing questions, and disclose her emotions if she feels them (i.e. “I find myself thinking about you all the time” “It makes me happy when you’re near” “I think I might be falling for you”).

    Ok wait, wait, pump the brakes (shaking my head here). You can only do this AFTER you’re both on board with something more serious. Too early on and this is just plain creepy, and screams “clinger” a la Wedding Crashers.

    I respect your advice and your opinions on this blog, Hope, but you just plain aren’t being accurate about when it’s appropriate to use these strategies you’re talking about. You have to be more specific.

  • Kaikou

    @Hope

    I agree with you beautiful lady, but in reference to the actual post non of that can happen through text messages or hanging with you while you hang with the boys.

    I get it. Men want you to razzle dazzle ’em and they’ll make you a star. But they need to know how to spot talent or at least potential first or we ain’t making it to Broadway (or rather the morning papers – to keep it era specific)

  • deti

    Wants to Know 72:

    “If I was asked what I brought to the table would you really want to hear things like loyalty, patience, helpmate, or would you want to know financial aspects (which if I understand correctly are really not that important to men,) or is it physical? Maybe the questions aren’t being asked clearly?”

    First and foremost, men are evaluating women on their physical appearance. You need to bring a pleasing physical appearance to the table. You’d be surprised at how easy it is to qualify yourself to most men on this: Keep your weight down, your hair long, and your makeup on. Half the battle is just being within 20 pounds of your ideal weight.

    A very, very close second is your personality. You MUST bring a nice, kind, pleasant demeanor; a cheerful outlook on life. You need to be loyal, patient, kind and HONEST. Your sex partner count will come up. You need to respond honestly. If you lie about it, the truth will eventually come out, and the fallout will not be pretty. You need to understand and accept that a high sex partner count might disqualify you to many men as wife material. If you want a husband, you need homemaking skills. If you don’t have them, cultivate them.

  • Kaikou

    @modernguy #74

    Something tells me that you are better than “just keeping it real”. Somebody sometime somewhere said: “Life is what dreams are made of”. Not the other way around. Raise the bar alone, it makes you strong and handsome.

  • Kaikou

    With all do respect, Sir Deti…you teeter totter too much. Not that your points aren’t valid or true just you chose to say them in a roundabout way. To my feminine ears it sounds like someone towing the line. Aren’t you in a relationship? She’s a beauty ain’t she?

  • PeppermintPanda

    The primary red-flag in this is the late-night texts. If he did this once or twice I might think he was bad at planning, or he was trying to show off that he was a fun guy; but if he is doing it regularly I would say that you’re a back-up plan.

  • Another tip; a woman should not say stuff in a hard, masculine fashion or give ultimatums like “Either stop contacting me or step it up.” The more a woman uses hard, sharp and demanding phrasing combined with stereotypical “bitchy” tones, the more men will dismiss her.

    The best way to talk to a man is to use a soft, small voice, be emotionally vulnerable to disarm his armor, and penetrate his armor with sweetness and kindness. That is the most brutal combination of attacks that render most men virtually defenseless. Don’t be shrill, don’t be melodramatic, don’t be loud, and don’t be bitchy. Instead, be feminine.

    What she could have said instead: “I like hanging out with you, but it seems like you aren’t that into me. If you really do like me, please talk to me more, take me out somewhere, and spend more time with me. I don’t want to get hurt, so if you don’t like me that way, it would be best if you told me now.”

    There. If he is built like a normal person, he’d feel guilty if he wanted to just pump and dump her, and would probably stop contacting her. He’d be happy if he really liked her and did want to see her more, and now he has verbal confirmation that he can and should. She comes across as more vulnerable, which is more attractive. There are no downsides.

    • @Hope

      What she could have said instead: “I like hanging out with you, but it seems like you aren’t that into me. If you really do like me, please talk to me more, take me out somewhere, and spend more time with me. I don’t want to get hurt, so if you don’t like me that way, it would be best if you told me now.”

      This might be effective, but it requires the woman to sacrifice all her pride. In a situation where they actually haven’t progressed to hanging out, it would have to be more like, “I would like to hang out with you, but it seems like you only want to see me late at night…” That sounds pretty pathetic to me. It seems pretty clear based on his actions that he does not like her in any way that requires sunshine or intimate conversation.

  • OffTheCuff

    Obviously a player, from very beginning. Plowed through the “but we work together” shit test effortlessly.

  • Hi Hope @71,

    I get what you’re saying.

    “… and having to do this over and over again spending lots of money on different women.”
    —–
    Players only do this for certain women this is not how most operate. If they can get something for nothing they normally go for that. But if the woman has a high enough SMV he will ask her out on an actual date. Men will work harder to get a very attractive because he knows it wont be as easy to bed her.

    For example, I have heard that G. Clooney will wine and dine, take women on expensive trips, fly them on his private in order to woo before he has sex with them. Does he reallly have to do this? Probably not. The thing is, the women he is doing this for are women of high SMV.

    Hope, another thing women don’t usually demand that men wine and dine them–totally tacky.
    I do agree that she should demonstrate her worth to him if she wants that guy for the long haul.

  • Wants to know

    You know there is some great advice here. Thanks.

  • modernguy

    Kaikou you are a strong beautiful soul. Your words inspire me to be better. Lead me with your powerful thunderous thighs.

  • modernguy

    Good advice Hope, but hard to square with the western female’s demands for “respect” and independence.

  • Kaikou, text messages are just fine. My husband and I did a combination of chatting online via im, text messages and phone calls, and we got to know each other really well. Face-to-face time is important, but it’s too easy for the physical escalation to happen sans emotional escalation.

    BroHamlet, hanging out can be non-physical like I just said to Kaikou. Also, I definitely wasn’t suggesting saying all that within the first day! That would send out red flags of course. Most girls are socially savvy enough to know the appropriate times to escalate emotionally, but most are also holding back because they are afraid of showing their hand. I’m suggesting to show the hand, because that distinguishes her from the other girls who are playing hard to get or emotionally distant.

    Susan has an old post about this (showing hand), and it’s also how she got her husband.

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/06/02/relationshipstrategies/say-what-you-need-to-say/

  • Kaikou

    @modernguy

    What kind of sounds do I make? If I am in a forest dancing can you hear me?

    Question for everyone: Can true love be found on the Hooking Up Smart site? I’m asking for a friend. 🙂

  • BroHamlet

    @Hope

    My suggestion is for the woman to bring her own game to the table: not demand anything money-wise, but not give anything body-wise. Escalate emotionally rather than physically. Get to know him without asking him to spend a penny. Screen him hard, but also qualify herself hard. Tell him how she can enhance his life, show him what skills she possesses, and demonstrate that her high standards also come with high quality.

    Hope, I really, really like this. At the same time, women want sex to happen quickly enough not to get bored with a guy and most want it before they get into relationship mode. I agree with this (as most men do, obviously) because one way or another the physical part is going to come up. I’m curious what you would consider to be an appropriate middle ground with regards to the physical during this period of emotional escalation that you suggest.

    • At the same time, women want sex to happen quickly enough not to get bored with a guy and most want it before they get into relationship mode.

      Always a tricky question. I think most women would love the commitment first, and the compromise they’re willing to make is sex with exclusivity enroute to a relationship. A woman who has sex before exclusivity is playing a very high stakes game.

  • Joe

    Kaikou, Modernguy – Get a room.

  • Marie

    @ Herb

    I understand now that the entire “men should ask you out on a dinner date” makes men worry about finances and I didn’t think of it that way.
    I always offer to pay half and I think all women should, it’s common courtesy (although I’ve never experienced a man not insisting to pay I might add).
    The next date ma might as well be a cup of coffee, going somewhere together, see an exhibition, whatever. It doesn’t have to cost, my main point is that it is planned in advance and requires the two of you to meet up, alone, but in public.

    I’m afraid I’m old-fashioned with the asking-out dance. I wait for a man’s initiative to ask me out, always, and even initiate contact or contacting me just to ask how I am. I always respond positively though and get back to him within reasonable time. I don’t consider it playing hard to get (I don’t go silent for days or let him question my interest and I’m very affectionate with him).

    When it comes to contact, I really follow this:
    http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/09/dont-initiate-contact.html

    • @Marie

      I’m glad you linked to Andrew’s post about initiating contact at Rules Revisited. That influenced my thinking on the issue. I think women should indicate interest, and let the man take it from there. I’m especially convinced of this after a woman recently let it be known that she had a crush on a guy. He approached, asked if it was true and said he thought she was hot and was really pleased. His interest flamed out very quickly. She would have been much better off flirting and leaving it there. He probably never would have tried to get with her. As it was, it became awkward with him avoiding her in their friend group.

  • Liza, I see what you mean, and a few times in my life guys did take me out to expensive dates and dinners. I don’t have really high SMV, so I can’t speak to what men usually do to woo such women.

    However, in my opinion, it means much more when a guy will talk to me for hours on end and tell me about his childhood, dreams, hopes and fears. Dinner conversation is just small talk, not establishing real emotional connection.

    Maybe the older men can fall in love with the old fashioned rules of dating, but I’m talking about men of my generation, Millenials in their 20s. I had more offers of marriages and long term relationships than I knew what to do with, but few formal dates.

  • Maggie

    “Sounds like he is putting in all the effort and she is putting in none. I can see why he is irritated at her response”

    What effort is he putting in? He texts her and he walks her to her car after seeing her at a party. He doesn’t call her, he makes no effort to make future plans with her, he doesn’t ask her out.

    If he were really interested in more than a booty call, he would make an effort. He doesn’t have to spend money, just go out for coffee and see that she gets home safely.

    Grace did the right thing.

  • OhioStater

    Hi Susan! It’s been a while since I’ve commented. I’m on my iPhone since my IT dept blocks your site.

    I’d like to strongly disagree with one of your propositions: the most attractive women have the least casual sex.

    This may be because:
    1. We define attractive differently
    2. We’re in different dating markets

    The only reason a good looking girl would have less sex is if there aren’t many men that approach them normally without awkwardness. I find hot girls are easier since all you need to do is maintain composure which most guys can’t.

    However, what I’ve seen is the most physically attractive girls have more sex since they won’t pay a penalty. Gisele racked up a large number of partners many publicly and still had enough appeal to secure commitment from Tom Brady, a top male.

    I consider myself average to slightly above average. When I approach average girls, they verbally and open debate whether they should do anything with me in terms of “this won’t work out”, “we don’t share friends”, “we have nothing in common”. The hot girls never do that.

    It’s as if the average girls save their count for men that can become long-term since purity and reputation is one way they can compete with the models.

    This is 100% my experience. I’d love to hear your thoughts!

    • @OhioStater

      I confess your experience with the prettiest women is not what I’ve heard and read elsewhere. One of the primary problems in the SMP is that a lot of women find that they can pull men more attractive than themselves for ONSs, though not for relationships. This has caused a flooding of the market with promiscuous women in the 5-7 range. The female 9s and 10s are losers in this market, because there is little supply of male 9s and 10s who want committed relationships. Some of them undoubtedly resort to promiscuity and they are probably the ones most likely to turn a hookup into a relationship, I don’t know. But many don’t want to settle for casual sex with a guy of their SMV or a relationship with a guy of lower SMV. I see way more of the latter than the former, actually.

  • Jon

    @Kaikou

    I have no problem putting in more effort, it’s just that the girl has to earn it first. Start with fun casual/hang-out dates and work our way up to “real” dates. Just being high value in and of itself isn’t enough.

    A person’s value is only relevant to the extent they are willing to make it available to others, and traditional dating tends to feature a very lopsided exchange of value in the beginning.

    I think George Wither said it best in this excerpt from his poem Shall I Wasting in Despair

    Shall a woman’s virtues move
    Me to perish for her love?
    Or her well-deserving known
    Make me quite forget mine own?
    Be she with that goodness blest
    Which may gain her name of best
    If she be not such to me,
    What care I, how good she be?

    And as a side note, first date dinner dates are out. If you want a reason, watch the movie Shop Girl or look up the video clip on youtube – it’s painful just thinking about it. They’re really more like interviews while eating than dates.

    The more I think about it though, I’m inclined to say that Grace made the right call about Brady. Only texting late at night when he’s out with his friends is tacky at best, and she did offer the option of going for a run as a way he could step up his game. My knee jerk reaction was to assume that she wanted to be wined and dined before taking the next step, and I now feel like that was an incorrect assumption.

    One thing I’m not clear about is if she actually went over to his place for drinks or if he just invited her, because that would count as a casual/hang-out date in my book, and if it went well could qualify her for the next level.

    • @Jon

      I have no problem putting in more effort, it’s just that the girl has to earn it first. Start with fun casual/hang-out dates and work our way up to “real” dates. Just being high value in and of itself isn’t enough.

      I think this is totally reasonable.

      One thing I’m not clear about is if she actually went over to his place for drinks or if he just invited her, because that would count as a casual/hang-out date in my book, and if it went well could qualify her for the next level.

      She went, and they had a nice conversation. Toward the end, he made moves, they made out for a while, then she left. He tried to escalate and she demurred, to which he said, “smart girl.”

      She was very excited about him at that point. So there were three good hangs: the coffee date, the party, and a glass of wine at his place. But his effort definitely declined after that, and it’s been a while. Maybe he couldn’t tell she was interested? How can we ever know what men think????!!!!

      Am I being too hard on this guy?

  • BroHamlet, during emotional escalation phase, the woman can tell the guy what she wants to do to him sexually. It is said that the biggest sex organ is the brain, and revving up his imagination and anticipation is a good way to show her sexual interest. I had awesome conversations with my husband before we did anything physical. I was extremely attracted to him, and that emotional/psychological attraction turbo-charged the physical attraction. It didn’t take long for us to basically go to phone sex. 😛

    If a guy isn’t interested in that, he’s likely not emotionally invested in her or attracted to her to get sexually turned on by non-physical stuff. It’s probably something with the Millenial generation, but people in the old days did write love letters to each other, and probably got into some sexy stuff. The emails and texts are kind of modern analogies.

  • Herb

    @Liza

    By the way, I get the impression that many men here may not know what characteristics and traits a quality woman possesses. I really hope I am wrong.

    We know them.

    What we don’t know is who has them. Modern women for some reason want to be good men or act like they’re sluts (even when they often aren’t) and many seem to hide that they are quality women.

    Plus, too many will throw that quality to the side for fun and then put it back on never realizing that’s a dry clean garment.

  • deti

    Wants to know 84:

    You’re welcome.

    Note that I said nothing about your financial contributions to an LTR. In terms of attraction, men do not care one bit about the following:
    1. Your job.
    2. Your wage/salary, how much money you make, or your future earning potential.
    3. The places you’ve traveled to.
    4. Where you went to college or grad school, or even whether you went to college or grad school.
    5. The interesting/famous/notorious people you have met, seen or worked with.

    However, we do care very much about:
    1. How many men you have had sex with (“Sex” meaning “how many penises has some part of your body touched in any way, shape, manner or form”)
    2. The way you got to that number of men (ONSs? SNLs? LTRs? Flings?)
    3. Your candor, honesty and forthrightness about 1 and 2 above.
    4. Whether you are divorced.
    5. Whether you already have children.
    6. Your trustworthiness with his money, assets, time, and knowledge of the intimate details of his life.
    7. How available you are to him.
    8. How kind and pleasant you are to him.
    9. Your willingness to submit to and subordinate yourself to his life plan.

  • Herb

    @deti

    Why do the women on this thread take such offense at these questions even being posed?

    I’ll tell you what I told Abbott:

    You forget yourself, a woman’s appropriateness is for her to decide, not the man she chooses.

  • Chuck Berry

    This is a filter, we can be sure of that, but it is not going to be a successful one.

    All this ‘move’ does is say ‘I’m not as easy* as you thought.’ Cads will not be deterred by this because we never deterred by anything we want and we have little to no shame.

    *Easy is a very relative term.

    Chuck

  • Chuck Berry

    To be more clear, Brady sounds like a classless wanker emulating the actions of more successful men.

    Chuck

  • deti

    10. Your overall character and integrity (i.e. are you honest about your background? Are you hiding something? Did you get caught in a lie? Does your story check out? Are you really who you represent yourself to be?)

  • J

    Women are still demanding formal dates and courtship. IOW, they want his investment — his time, his money, his resources; and they want those things before they respond with sex. Women want those things for many reasons — a show of good faith; a display of genuine interest; a display of his provisioning ability. She gets the free meal, entertainment, and drinks; but what does he get? Women want the old courtship rituals, but they don’t want to respond and give the man what he wants (escalating sexual involvement). Courtship has been abused.

    I’ve said this before, but, since it never gets old, I’ll say it again. First dates need to be low investment and highly informative for both parties. A first date activity should not involve a big financial outlay on the guy’s part or a big emotional/sexual outlay on the woman’s part. It should be wallpaper for getting to know one another. A walk in the park, a trip to the zoo, a coffee date–any activity that affords an opportunity to talk to one another is a good first date. Gals: If a guy isn’t looking to get to know you, he isn’t looking for more than sex. Guys: If a woman insists that you spend big money for the chance to get to know her, you have found a golddigger.

  • deti

    Herb 99:

    Not following you. Maybe you’re being sarcastic in which case I think I get it. As the man, I get to decide her propriety.

  • Herb

    @Wants to Know

    If I was asked what I brought to the table would you really want to hear things like loyalty, patience, helpmate, or would you want to know financial aspects (which if I understand correctly are really not that important to men,) or is it physical? Maybe the questions aren’t being asked clearly?

    I don’t want words in any case. I want evidence.

    I don’t care about money and I can see your looks.

    When did you offer to pay for a date? That’s less about money than it is respect that I work just as hard as you for money and that in a relationship the flow of energy isn’t one way, even energy expended elsewhere.

    Were you willing to pick up my suit when we had a formal date and I was running late at work? Are you ready when I’m supposed to pick you up or are you the classic half-hour late women in getting ready? When I was so sick I stayed home from work (five or six times this century) did you stop to check on me and when you noticed I had gotten sick and wasn’t able to clean it all up did you take care of it? Did you bring your parking pass even though I drove to save us time and me some money? Did you take the time to wait online to get the Dead Can Dance tickets at 6am so I could sleep in after I did the same for Lorenna McKinnett?

    Too many women I’ve met thought none of that was a reasonable expectation for an LTR.

  • deti

    Herb:

    “By the way, I get the impression that many men here may not know what characteristics and traits a quality woman possesses. I really hope I am wrong.

    We know them.

    What we don’t know is who has them. Modern women for some reason want to be good men or act like they’re sluts (even when they often aren’t) and many seem to hide that they are quality women.”

    Sluts are also becoming quite adept at mimicing nonpromiscuous women. They have enlisted the full support of North American Churchianity for this, hence the rise of “reformed sluts” and “born again virgins”.

    Hence also
    1. the creative partner count methods
    2. the “I want to wait for sex with you. I’m not like that anymore and you’re really special” speech
    3. the “how dare you judge me!” retort
    4. the “but men do it too!” retort

  • Herb

    @Liza

    For example, I have heard that G. Clooney will wine and dine, take women on expensive trips, fly them on his private in order to woo before he has sex with them. Does he reallly have to do this? Probably not. The thing is, the women he is doing this for are women of high SMV.

    For Christsakes Liza, I’m in the top 20% of income and that’s a ridiculous standard for me. Even if I could afford it, screw you. Any woman who needs a princess moment to start a relationship is going to be too expensive to keep for anyone.

    You can never be rich enough to be a junkie…or marry a princess.

  • JutR

    @The Private Man #27. I agree with you for the most part. I would add one qualifier on one of your statements.

    ‘Guys who finally figured out the deal (Red Pill wisdom) –and still need female validation– fall into two basic categories:’

    @modernguy ‘It’s an exchange of total commitment for total fidelity.’

    And here is a statement that is very important, but is perceived quite differently. Our society demands the man put almost everything on the line, enforced by the state, and punished by social stigma for not staying married. There are strong enforcement arms at the state and federal level to ensure men’s commitment carries far beyond marriage.

    But, women want to get out of the last part, and Feminism has told them that they have no obligation to the man to remain chaste or pure. The state has no enforcement arm to ensure that women will refrain from sleeping with whoever they want.

    The thought of such a department would seem totalitarian, but yet, we have no such qualms about burdening men with providing for someone long after the relationship has ended.

    There is no reason to pursue ‘quality women’ as long as the arm of the state enables the enslavement of men in family courts.

  • Herb

    @deti

    Not following you. Maybe you’re being sarcastic in which case I think I get it. As the man, I get to decide her propriety.

    Me, sarcastic…it is one of the services I offer.

    Most women seem to want to screen men but cry foul when men do the same. Most women want to be allowed to qualify the man and themselves (hence, the man they choose). Many women even want to be allowed to abusively disqualify men for just saying, “hi”.

  • Abbot

    “*Easy is a very relative term.”

    In the West, most of it is just fake easy aka gear-shifting, duping, remaking…all manipulative behavior performed in defensive reaction to male nature and how men think. It is odd that feminists flat out deny this nature of men and yet their female subjects have honed the skill of working around it.

  • Wudang

    Hope:

    “The more a woman uses hard, sharp and demanding phrasing combined with stereotypical “bitchy” tones, the more men will dismiss her.

    The best way to talk to a man is to use a soft, small voice, be emotionally vulnerable to disarm his armor, and penetrate his armor with sweetness and kindness. That is the most brutal combination of attacks that render most men virtually defenseless. Don’t be shrill, don’t be melodramatic, don’t be loud, and don’t be bitchy. Instead, be feminine.”

    Very good advice!

    One of my favourite blogs is the sanctuary. She is a great example of girl game in the way she writes in a feminine way with very little sharp edges yet is extremely persuasive. For me her writing is attraction generating. If I met a girl that wrote like that or talked in an analogous way that would be a major pluss.

  • Herb

    @Marie

    I always offer to pay half and I think all women should, it’s common courtesy (although I’ve never experienced a man not insisting to pay I might add).

    With a quality woman most men are happy to pay more often than not. However, in this day and age of entitled princesses raised on grrl power and you can have it all, men have to suspect you’re using them for a free meal (that Match.com whore who wrote about her and her friends doing just that on the Internet didn’t help your case, but she’s just the latest). Offering to pay does more to tell him, “I’m not a princess” than a loop saying, “she’s not a princess” could ever do”.

    My current gf insisted on alternating for a long time. It wasn’t until she realized my performance bonus for last year was more than she made last year that she let me pay 2 out of 3. Anymore I’d be happy to just pay but the fact she pretty much holds it to 2 out of 3 (admittedly letting me pick up the larger ones usually) does a lot to signal value.

    I’m afraid I’m old-fashioned with the asking-out dance. I wait for a man’s initiative to ask me out, always, and even initiate contact or contacting me just to ask how I am. I always respond positively though and get back to him within reasonable time.

    The problem isn’t you. Men are raised today to not ask women out because that’s objectifying/patriarchal/this week’s buzz word. You really should listen to the crap boys get taught in sex ed and college freshman get in orientation or ready that Feministing article that uses as proof that all men are potential rapists the put your arm on the door and ask for a kiss tactic.

    In that environment every man isn’t in a bad neighborhood, he’s walking point in country when asking a woman out.

  • J

    @deti

    But were I in the dating scene, anyone I was dating would have to show strong sexual interest in me before I opened my wallet for anything more than carryout pizza and a movie rental, or committed more than a couple of hours.

    I didn’t expect an answer to my last comment (#103) which was built on yours, but I have a serious question regarding the comment above. If all you would be willing invest in a woman who has not expressed a strong sexual interst in you is a few hours of your time, how could any woman who was interested in more than sex make a reasonable decision about you? If I were to find myself back on the market, I’d avoid men who weren’t willing to invest their time in me like the plague. I can’t imagine hopping into the sack with someone as a prerequisite to getting to know him. I would expect that most self-respecting women would walk away for such a man.

  • Marie

    @ Ohiostater
    To give me personal experience: I would qualify as high SMV, and have many friends who do as well. In general, the most promiscuous girls I know are reasonably attractive, but not top notch.
    Usually they are either slightly older (30s), or girls who became attractive slightly late and are not used to the attention. Older women being ‘easier’ is well known to must young men, which is why they pursue them. Often they choose the promiscuous path when their friends get married and they fell behind.

    It’s true that very attractive girls don’t necessarily have to suffer the ‘penalty’. I even know a girl who’s cute but not amazing, about a 7, and have 50+ partners, and just got engaged to an amazing guy. I think few women find it worth gambling on though. Women that are both high SMV and of high social status, usually want a guy of similar status. The social circle is smaller, and even if your number doesn’t matter, there is a higher risk of a guy you’ve slept with being familiar with other guys in the same circle. That can potentially be a deal breaker for many guys, even for good-looking girls.
    There are more high SMV women than high SMV men, at least where I’m from (based on the typical SMV standards of men and women), and out of the high SMV men there is an even smaller pool of those men in their mid-twenties looking for commitment (as they could potentially sleep around). They can still be so selective that it makes sense for us to not sleep around.
    Not to mention I don’t think most attractive women have ‘penalty’ in mind in terms of sleeping around. Most women get limited pleasure from it, and attractive women don’t need the validation. I still think validation is the main reason some women sleep around, not what “they can get away with”. (Getting away with as much as you can is a male mindset 🙂 )

  • Abbot

    “we have no such qualms about burdening men with providing for someone long after the relationship has ended.”

    we have no such qualms about burdening men with providing for someone shortly after she ends her multi-man sexual activity

  • Chuck Berry

    You are terrible at guessing your own SMV, because you are tragically human.

    Anecdotes never equal data.

    Chuck

  • (R)Evoluzione

    Interesting post. It has shades of the “X reasons to date a beta” that have been floating around here.

    Many of the men you call “cads” & “players” are actually quality guys who’ve been burned by hypergamy, and who see a whole lot of women out there unsuitable for LTR but are at least fun to hang out with. These men (speaking for myself here) *will* commit for a quality girl. Interestingly, I think this advice is good. Essentially what she’s doing with the shit test “give more or less interest” is qualifying the men in her life. That’s the purpose of *all* shit tests. So either one of three things will happen: the dude will step up his game by demonstrating his fitness, or fail to do so, or decline to even try, because he doesn’t see her as LTR material.

    So this post, in a way, accomplishes what the “date a beta male” post did not: providing real-world tools for women to help make pragmatic decisions about dating. Nice work.

  • Herb

    @J

    If I were to find myself back on the market, I’d avoid men who weren’t willing to invest their time in me like the plague. I can’t imagine hopping into the sack with someone as a prerequisite to getting to know him. I would expect that most self-respecting women would walk away for such a man.

    In six hours I can write, learn, and record a lead or bass line for a new song.

    Odds are that lead line will be around longer than any woman.

    Excluding my first girl, Black Beauty (a Signet Special clarinet from 1978), out of fairness only one woman has been with me longer than all my instruments. and she bugged out. Two more have been around longer than my bass but not my flute or the guitar I gave away to some people in my FPU class to give their son a guitar for Christmas.

    Given the respective level of commitment are you surprised I’d give you no more than a good session with one of them before really investing?

  • J

    @Hope

    Cosign post #60; have some issues with this:

    Another tip; a woman should not say stuff in a hard, masculine fashion or give ultimatums like “Either stop contacting me or step it up.” The more a woman uses hard, sharp and demanding phrasing combined with stereotypical “bitchy” tones, the more men will dismiss her.

    In Grace’s case, I think she was fine in giving an ultimatum. If the guy had been really interested in her, he’d have already taken her out. He was playing games with her, and she lost nothing by challenging him. She knew he wasn’t going to “step it up;” she just wanted him to know that she knew. While she may have “blown it” with him as a potential date, she at least put a stop to the workplace flirtation that was going nowhere.

  • OhioStater

    @marie

    I’d agree with the “grow into it” part since I can relate. Ugly ducklings grow up to marry swans.

    One caveat is I interact with a lot of young girls, between 22 and 25. Maybe they’ll grow out of it. The slightly professional girls aren’t as into the casual thing but they act desperate around marriable men.

  • deti

    J 113:

    It’s back to combat dating, the tug of war. It’s different now than it used to be. Under assortative mating the dynamic was more like a dance, in which he led and gave a little, and she followed and gave a little.

    Feminism has turned what used to be a somewhat pleasant dance into a war of wits, will, and cunning. It’s all about who is going to make the first move, who will limit their risk the most. This is extremely important for a number of reasons for men.

    1. The financial and social costs, nearly all of which is borne by men. Men bear nearly all the risk of rejection. They risk nuclear rejections and blowouts every time they approach. They bear most of the financial costs. They risk false rape accusations and sexual harassment claims, either of which can result in lost jobs, ruined careers, reputation destruction and even criminal prosecution.

    2. She either is attracted sexually, or she is not. There is no in between. Sexual attraction is almost always instantaneous. Every woman I’ve had good sexual chemistry with, that chemistry is immediately apparent and it is palpable. Of course he is attracted. If he were not, he would not invite her to hang out or even talk to her. If she is attracted, she will make time and make herself available. If she is not attracted, she will balk or flake.

    Thus, I don’t agree that the man should need to put out time for her so she can get to know him or make a reasonable decision about him. The attraction and “spark” is either there, or it is not there.

  • Abbot

    Is there going to be a – “Filtering advice for men” post?

    Bet that will get more than a 1000 comments very quickly

    • Is there going to be a – “Filtering advice for men” post?

      Do the guys want one?

  • Hope,

    It is not just older men who wine and dine these days. The problem is that women/girls have lowered the bar for themselves, especially women of low SMV. The men on here can say they have a hard time paying for dates and what not, but if that was the way for them to get laid or relationship from a woman of any SMV they would gladly do it. The only reason men are getting away with this behavior is because most women have very low expectations for themselves. When a man meets a woman he really wants to bed or have long-term relationship with or whatever, and she demands he treats in a way that she deems suitable to get what he wants–he will either step up or move on. Most women are not doing that nowadays. But there are some women who demand good treatment and get it.

    As Susan stated in her post, that most attractive women still have high expectations which is probably why they are often asked out and pursued by real players and cads (not red pill swallowers) they are the only men that are not afraid of being rejected by them. Although, many red pillers will claim that they are bedding hot/beautiful women. I really have hard time buying that.

    As I said, authentic players and cads don’t play wait and see games. If they make an investment (only in beautiful women) and he does not get an immediate return on that investment–he moves on.

    By the way, Brady, sounds like a red pill swallower.

  • JutR

    Abbott,

    I wrote:
    “we have no such qualms about burdening men with providing for someone long after the relationship has ended.”

    You revised it:
    “we have no such qualms about burdening men with providing for someone shortly after she ends her multi-man sexual activity”

    I think you and I agree, but if the state enforced penalties were not in place for men upon the breakup of marriage, then this would not be a big deal. Quite frankly, if you’re getting the benefits of the relationship, then you pay the price.

    I perceive your issue to be the selection process for deciding commitment. If the penalties for commitment were less, then the selection process would not need to be as rigorous.

  • Zach

    Absolutely, positively, no question about it Brady was/is a player. I also bet Grace was a little out of his league too, which is why he spent so long trying to “get with her”. Also, use of “get with her” is a huuuge red flag. Girls, if you’re unsure, when a guy says he “got with” a girl, it doesn’t mean he dated her, it means he f**ked her. Also, as Susan says, it’s completely a low-effort level of interest. Sending a text takes 30 seconds and no $$. Having seriously dated girls and also having kept them around as booty calls, I would never text a girl I was serious about dating after I was already out drinking, unless we’d already had a lot of time put in with sober, real activities. Too much of a chance to ruin it with an obvious booty call. The booty call girls get these late-night, low-effort texts because the guy generally doesn’t really care if the girl never texts him again.

    I have a very good girl friend who was in Grace’s situation with a couple guys (in fact I almost wonder if this is her under a pseudonym), and I gave her the exact same advice Susan did. Not that I’d never do what Brady did (I do it somewhat often), but I wanted to give her the tools to identify it and avoid it.

    On another note, to the girls, why do girls get so worked up and enticed by a guy just paying attention to them for a few weeks with texts?? I’ve known quite a few girls who convince themselves that this guy must really like them just because he takes 2 minutes out of his day to type some words into a phone. Hot girls get attention from men all the time, so why is this persistent attention so alluring to them? I’ve never slept with a girl I wasn’t into just because she texted me a lot. It seems to me like some girls (the hot ones) who shouldn’t really have a low threshold for “making them feel special” do have that low threshold.

    • @Zach

      Awesome epic comment from a man who’s been there and done that!

      It seems to me like some girls (the hot ones) who shouldn’t really have a low threshold for “making them feel special” do have that low threshold.

      You answered the question in the question. In my experience, very good looking women are used to being evaluated for their looks alone. Most men couldn’t care less about getting to know them as human beings with the full range of emotions and experiences. To use a loaded word, they get objectified to a much higher degree than other women do. Lots of men come out of the woodwork just for the challenge of seducing them, just to experience banging that body and that face.

      I’ve seen a lot of really nasty things being said about Mark Zuckerburg’s wife being ugly. I don’t know why it doesn’t occur to anyone that she is literally the only woman in the world he can trust to love him for himself. They met as students before he ever thought of FB. If he wanted to marry and have a family, she was clearly the best choice.

      On a much smaller scale, I think beautiful women fear being just another trophy.

  • Kaikou

    @Liza

    I totally agree. There’s a reason why women don’t comment here often.

  • deti

    Liza 122:

    Agree with your comment here. But we also have to take into account that many women, even those who are beautiful, will give it up fast for the sexy alpha player or cad. Perhaps not all do, but most do.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I don’t know a single sexually active woman (including high status high SMV women) who has not had at least one cad pump and dump her, which she explains by saying “he was just so beautiful I couldn’t HELP myself!”

    • @deti

      But we also have to take into account that many women, even those who are beautiful, will give it up fast for the sexy alpha player or cad. Perhaps not all do, but most do.

      May I ask what evidence you have relied on to form this conclusion?

  • Wants to know

    @Herb #105
    You know Herb, yes I would do those things you described because I’ve learned what a great relationship is like by the example my father and slutty mother (modernguys discriptor) set for me. I am after all only 20 and just started to date so I haven’t gotten a chance to do those little acts of kindness. I started coming to this site and others because I had trouble figuring out why I wasn’t being asked out and wanted to figure out why (a bit to shy, too serious, and wicked sense of humor.) I’ve had my eyes opened and seems like I have a lot to learn.

    @deti,
    I’ll keep your list in mind, but what about competence? Wouldn’t you want a wife who would be competent? To me education proves how competent a woman can be.

  • J, work situations like that can be complicated and delicate. It’s why I would especially advise being cordial and pleasant in the interactions instead of using harsher phrasing.

    I also know of a workplace flirtation that went on for a long, long time before the two became official and got married. Not saying that is optimal, but men are also less inclined to escalate quickly with work situations due to the sensitive nature of the situation.

  • Chuck Berry

    Nothing happens in a vacuum, the way this story is presented.

    Without hearing Bradys perspective on this encounter this is nothing more then speculation and circle-jerking.

    Maybe Grace is omitting that she is reformed good-time girl or that Brady is the worlds most uncomfortable introvert. We really cannot really calculate or derive it.

    The only useful conclusion we can draw from this story is that no conclusions can be made about the ‘filter’.

    I would have titled this post ‘Much ado about nothing’

    Chuck

    • @Chuck Berry

      Without hearing Bradys perspective on this encounter this is nothing more then speculation and circle-jerking.

      Eh, that’s always the risk with reader letters and stories. Still, it’s often interesting to debate the hypotheticals. The story gives a useful structure for debating the larger questions.

      Maybe Grace is omitting that she is reformed good-time girl or that Brady is the worlds most uncomfortable introvert. We really cannot really calculate or derive it.

      Grace describes Brady as extremely outgoing, social and confident. That’s why she was drawn to him in the orientation. As for her own past, Grace has been very circumspect. She got played once as a college freshman and learned that hard lesson very quickly.

  • Zach

    @Marie

    Guys (and by guys I mean me and others I know) loooove girls who got cute late. Much easier to hook up with than girls who’ve always been hot, because they either a) don’t really know they’re hot or b) are unused to getting a lot of attention and they love it.

  • Kaikou

    @wantstoknow

    First things first dove. Keep your personal life private. Your mom isn’t that and if you let a random guy on a blog make you really believe that, you have other work to do.

    I would check out http://www.wwnh.wordpress.com

    Who new that being shy, non – promiscuous, serious (which in lady terms mean not ditzy) and funny/witty would get you well…nothing.

  • Abbot

    ” If the penalties for commitment were less, then the selection process would not need to be as rigorous.”

    Same as landlords who screen tenants because once they have possession most local laws make it very difficult to remove them if they do not fulfill their obligations. IOW, the law is tenant friendly thus tenants have a hard time getting an apartment. It should be no easier for a woman to land a husband.

  • Jason773

    Sorry, not buying this method, and I think this Grace might be missing out on a good guy. This guy sounds like your typical, career oriented, decent looking beta who is interested in her but doesn’t know how to make things happen and progress the situation. Also, it sounds like this guy might be just out of college (as they met at a career orientation thingy) and has no experience in traditional dating, because that doesn’t happen in college. Blame the system, not the guy.

    No player I have ever known has continually kept up interest and conversation for months on end, only looking for a fling. Yes, a player might have some prospects who get a ‘Hey, sup?’ text every month or two as a possible booty call, but not good night texts, how is your day texts, and come meet my friends texts. A guy with a true abundance mentality does not put in this much effort, as it just isn’t worth it. I know I wouldn’t.

    It also sounds like Grace didn’t put in any effort on her part. What stopped her from saying ‘how about we go for a run?’ or ‘wanna go to this cool concert with me?’ Exactly, nothing. Answers to these questions would have given her all the info she needed, but she is reframing things to put the entire effort and responsibility on the male. Typical.

    • Oh no! Our two resident players Jason and Zach are not in agreement! They are both highly credible sources of info re SMP dynamics among 20-somethings.

      @Jason

      What stopped her from saying ‘how about we go for a run?’ or ‘wanna go to this cool concert with me?’ Exactly, nothing. Answers to these questions would have given her all the info she needed, but she is reframing things to put the entire effort and responsibility on the male.

      That’s a fair point. I think Grace is very guarded, having been burned once in a rather dramatic fashion.

      Do you really think it’s kosher for Brady to be inviting her to come over all the time? One thing I wondered – they both are one year out of college, and I’m not sure how big their respective social circles are yet in this city. He may actually not have that much going on, so inviting her over one on one may not be as shady as it seems. Although the late night part continues to disturb me. Why can’t he send that same text at 8 or 9?

      OK, so. Let’s assume Grace reads this thread (No idea if she will, I wrote this up with a pseudonym without even consulting her.) What would you advise her to do? I know Brady was texting as recently as this past weekend.

  • Passer_By

    I doubt that Brady will contact her regardless of what his intent was. She’s told him that his effort is inadequate, despite making zero effort of her own. Going forward, every interaction would be awkward regardless of how he felt. FIDO.

    The other problem here is that nearly all young guys seem to have come to the conclusion that wining and dining a woman with dates when you aren’t already sleeping with her gets you a one way ticket to the friendzone and being taken advantage of. They didn’t reach this conclusion in a vaccum, so, if women have created that impression, Grace is going to have a hard time enforcing a new set of rules.

    Lastly, Grace doesn’t give us enough information here. How many guys has she slept with in the last few years? Of those guys, how many started off the relationship by wining and dining her with formal dates as opposed to guys she just “hung out” with? Did any guys start off with formal dating? If so, did she end up hot for them? If not, she has her answer.

  • someINTP

    The best way to uncover a man’s sexually history is to test him for STDs. More than 50% of men have HPV. Even if he is a player and he’s clean, at least he’s not sloppy, which is a sign of consideration. That is, he cares about his work.

    That said, women hide their sexual history better than men. I think men require more assistance on filtering. Men are more likely to embrace their sexual identities–we don’t gossip, we brag. Women still hide from the fear of slut shaming, which only feeds the double standard. Imagine a topsy-turvy world where women bragged about being virgins and men gossiped about those who were still stuck in the single digits. I would congratulate women for having pride on the principle and I would chastise men for being such fearful, pathetic creatures.

    • Even if he is a player and he’s clean, at least he’s not sloppy, which is a sign of consideration. That is, he cares about his work.

      LMAO

  • deti

    Wants to know 127:

    A woman’s educational attainment proves exactly nothing about her competence.

    I have known female high school dropouts who could manage a home and a side business, raise six children, and handle more than half a home’s chores.

    I have known female physicians who are complete morons when it comes to common sense and interpersonal relations.

  • Liza, I agree with you that women should ask for what they want. I wanted a genuine emotional connection and find love, and that was much harder to find than a formal date. People have also told me that my expectations were too high (not kissing until mutual feelings of love), but I stuck to it and found my one.

    Some people say I just “got lucky,” which I did to some extent. But I also helped create some of my own luck.

  • And I know I’m right now after re-reading the post. Sorry, but no non-interested guy would EVER confront a girl in that manner if he was just looking for a slam piece. He was clearly invested in some form and wanted more from her.

    Sorry Grace, you probably blew it with that response.

  • Herb

    @Abbott

    Is there going to be a – “Filtering advice for men” post?

    Bet that will get more than a 1000 comments very quickly

    Men shouldn’t filter but realize they’re privileged to get the princess who picked them.

  • Abbot

    “I think men require more assistance on filtering.”

    It won’t be long before websites appear that do just that. ooooh, the spitting mad anger that some will throw at those sites…will be very amusing

  • JutR

    @Abbott #132: That’s a good analogy, similar to workers rights, if you make it too hard to let workers go, employers will screen candidates very carefully, and overall employment drops.

    A promiscuous woman is not a good bet in marriage, but when she can take your kids, your productivity and harass you with the power of the state, it makes Russian Roulette’s 1 in 6 chances look pretty good when you compare it to the divorce rate.

  • Wants to know

    Thanks Kaikou, I’m off to read. You and the other ladie please keep the advice coming, I’ll be reading.

  • Kaikou

    Hi Susan! 🙂

    Maybe you can relay the answers to some of my questions from previous posts? Still haven’t got much answers, just something about popping pills.

  • JutR

    Wants to know 127:

    Deti is spot on.

    I have met some competent women at work. I deal with some top notch people. I have never felt sexual attraction for competence, though I love to surround myself with those types of people. Competence, initiative and curiosity count as positive character traits in coworkers.

    Not all men want to marry a coworker. Now that income is diluted with the two parent working family, we have had to accept some sacrifices, but men really want a wife, not a coworker. Yes, they share some of the same traits, but most likely, they are not the ones that will spur a man to commit to you.

  • For Christsakes Liza, I’m in the top 20% of income and that’s a ridiculous standard for me. Even if I could afford it, screw you. Any woman who needs a princess moment to start a relationship is going to be too expensive to keep for anyone.
    ——-
    Herb,

    This what I don’t like about red pillers is that they are always looking to/ready to misinterpret and twist whatever women say in order to start venting about how horrible women are. I know you have the reading and comprehension skills to know I was not referring to myself. Or maybe I was not making myself clear. But, to say “screw you” was totally uncalled for don’t you think?

    If you’re a guy who usually does not go for very attractive women, then what I am saying may sound a little much. But yes, there are men like Clooney who have the means to do more wooing than most men. I also doubt those women are demanding these things from him, but he does it because he can, and wants to bed many women with high SMV.

  • Abbot

    “if you make it too hard to let workers go, employers will screen candidates very carefully, and overall employment drops.”

    In this case, overall commitment.

    This is where feminists and women in general got mud on their faces, as it were. They HATE to admit that their own demands have led to their own unhappiness. Poor babies…

  • Herb

    @Liza

    The men on here can say they have a hard time paying for dates and what not, but if that was the way for them to get laid or relationship from a woman of any SMV they would gladly do it. The only reason men are getting away with this behavior is because most women have very low expectations for themselves.

    I bolded that part because you’re right but you totally blow it in the next sentence. You’re not wrong per se but you’re missing a key problem.

    Most red-pill men have learned doing the bolded part is much more likely to land you in beta-orbit land than in having a girlfriend land.

    Period.

    End of conversation.

    Women who demand dates, especially dates you pay for, in the current SMP are looking to cut their dining bill while improving where they eat. If you’re the rare woman who isn’t I’m sorry but you’re going to get swept up into that bucket.

    @Wants to know

    You know Herb, yes I would do those things you described because I’ve learned what a great relationship is like by the example my father and slutty mother (modernguys discriptor) set for me. I am after all only 20 and just started to date so I haven’t gotten a chance to do those little acts of kindness.

    At your age you’re a rarity. Right now one out of three children live in a home without their bio-dad. The majority of US children will spend some time in a single parent home.

    That tends to make men more alpha (ie, sexier) but women…well, it makes women less appealing (especially more likely to slut it up).

    Most women who do the career girl first thing can’t really comprehend the things I listed are reasonable expectations.

  • Zach,

    I think you got it all wrong. In the OP it says this about Brady…

    “In some ways Grace felt singled out for attention by this handsome young man. He was motivated, in touch, consistent, and undeterred.”

    He clearly was in her league, and as I stated before, players do not invest this much effort over MONTHS. No one female is worth that much effort to a real player. And real players do not get all butthurt when the girl doesn’t reciprocate effort, as Brady did.

  • Abbot

    “Many women do indeed get burned several times – a rather costly error that can ratchet your number up rather quickly without your ever having actually gotten commitment from a guy.”

    So as feminists might say, don’t blame the prey…blame the predator?

  • Kaikou

    @Liza

    I am with you on the red pills. Agenda, agenda, agenda.

    @Herb Why is your name herb, btw? I have thoughts, but would love to know.

  • Wudang

    Liza you are deluded when it comes to how men of high SMV operate and how women of high SMV can expect to be treated by them.

    I am quite good looking and cool and alpha enough in a general sense that women 7-9 have always given me strong approach indicators and several have chased me. 4 of my 5 first sex partners started making out with me first and almost dragged me to bed and in one case flat out out asked me to be her fuckbuddy. They had to as I was clueless before learning about game about how to sexually escalate but attractive enough for them to do the work, which is quite rare. After game my options are even greater. Since my teens I have also always been in social groups that are filled with very good looking people and lots of alphas. I have also been in a very wide variety of social groups including the upper class/upper middle class people I grew up with, drug dealers, rappers and graffiti writers from the poorest neighborhoods in my city that I got to know in my teens, people from all sorts of social backgrounds in one big mix at university, a very intelectual subculture of journalists, freelance writers, PHD students, novelists etc. and the subculture of people actively involved in political youth parties and NGOs, and I have also gone out to bars and clubs a huge amount and know those scenes very well. In all those settings I have been friends with, dated or been friendly with the highest SMV women that was there and been friends with or known men of the highest SMV in those social groups. So when I disagree completely with your views it is not as you say because I lack knowledge of how the world works for the highest SMV men and women, at least where I live.

    The standard dating I have come a cross, or heard of, has always been to go have a beer or a few drinks or go to have coffe. Going out to eat has always primarily been something people step up to once they have gone out a bit in other ways already and often have already have had sex. IME women 8-10 very rarely get any sort of fancy dating or any sort of official comittment before sex. These women date alphas and sometimes very good looking and very successfull betas and those guys have an extreme amount of options. In order to compete for them you can rarely hold out for too long or expect much traditional dating. The classic dinner dates these women get are mostly with men of somehwat lower SMV who end up as orbiters.

    The thing I think you don`t understand is that because of hypergamy the highest SMV in any sexual market is always held by the top men. The top men can choose between different tens. THey are not 10s they are 11s. All over the world at all times some form of polygamy either formaly as in several wives, informaly as in mistresses in addition to the wives or as soft rotating harems as is so normal today has always been the norm precisely because the top men have greater options than the top women. For a couple of the naturals I know professional models are totally fungible, its not a question of getting a 10 it is which one you choose.

    The problem with offering a lot of effort and classical dinner dates where the man pays etc. is that women intuitively know that the most sought after men don`t have to do that at all. So when you do offer it, on some level it is a DHV. Women keep claiming that the more comittment signs you offer (and that is what it is) the better it is and you win points that way. However, since supply and demand predicts that the men won`t normally do that unless they have to it becomes a sign of lack of options. That is exactly what happened to the poster Jason when he tried to ask women on regular dates in stead of going through the murky hookup landscape as he usually would. In fact you describe part of how this is a DHV yourself in your post when you say that the highest SMV men offer this to the highest SMV women because they know they have to. By this you are saying these men have to chase these women and that the women are the prize. However, if you flip the script and force her to play by your rules in order to get you, you put yourself up as the prize and the one that has to be chased. This is a basic game principle and all my natural friends follow it at as well, either intuitively or because they understand the principle. So even if a woman really, really wants traditional dating and so can think she of course would “reward” a man willing to do it with attraction it will be very hard to shake the suboncious suspicion that it signals suplication, putting her on a pedestall and lack of preselction.

    In fact the people I encounter that actually do a lot of dinner dates from day one are the below average women and the betas who date them. They seem to rarely if ever have casual sex and are virtually the only people I meet who wait for a long time untill they have sex. I think that is because the lower ranked men sell committment rather than attraction and the lower ranked females intuitively know they have to sell chastity as they don`t have much good looks to sell.

    As for alphas mostly slumming it and only occasionaly hooking up with women of similar sex rank that is utter bullshit. I have gone out a lot to bars and clubs over the years and if you look at the people who hook up and geta cab at the end of the night the disparity isen`t normally very high. Sure you have a 9 with 5 sometimes but in general it is more like a 9 with a 7-9 and sometimes a six, or a 7 with a 6 or 7 sometimes a 5 and maybe a few rare times a 4. Generally what you will see in clubs is good looking people hooking up with good looking people and not so good looking people hooking up with not so good looking people. I see this almost every weekend.

  • Herb

    @Liza

    This what I don’t like about red pillers is that they are always looking to/ready to misinterpret and twist whatever women say in order to start venting about how horrible women are. I know you have the reading and comprehension skills to know I was not referring to myself. Or maybe I was not making myself clear. But, to say “screw you” was totally uncalled for don’t you think?

    If you’re a guy who usually does not go for very attractive women, then what I am saying may sound a little much.

    I can read. I can interpolate.

    But in reading what you described to women in my range reads like this:

    1. Ballet tickets
    2. Flowers when you pick her up
    3. Dinner at a moderately ($50/2) expensive restaurant

    for a first date. Add it up, that’s easily $100 spent on her (I would have gone to the ballet and probably dinner without her).

    I’ve done that and got told: it’s not a date, just friends going out.

    Now days you want my second ticket for the ballet you better have put some skin the game. Damn things are expensive (and you would think a man enthusiastic, not just willing, to go to the ballet is what a ton of women want but clearly it’s more fun to force an unwilling guy to go).

    As for the screw you, it was a generic answer to that attitude. It’s the deserved answer to that attitude. Red pill men were women’s time and money pools long enough to be mad about princessing.

  • Herb

    @Kaikou

    @Herb Why is your name herb, btw? I have thoughts, but would love to know.

    Because my dad named me after him. Nothing exciting.

  • Herb

    Oh and Kaikou

    I am with you on the red pills. Agenda, agenda, agenda.

    In my experience most women saying that will be getting a call from a Mr. Kettle on line 2.

    75% of what’s wrong in the current SMP is the result of the agenda of women and men’s completely predictable reaction to it.

  • Some people say I just “got lucky,” which I did to some extent. But I also helped create some of my own luck.

    Hope,

    That is it. You created you’re own luck by setting up boundaries and having standards and expectations. Good for you!

    But the insane thing is that if red pillers come across a woman like you they will interpret your behavior as non interest in them. But they claim that they know how quality a woman behaves. Oh, really?

  • Herb

    @Susan

    Grace and Brady were already attracted to one another. She gave him considerable encouragement when he suggested hanging out. He then proceeded to text her at the last minute on several occasions. She found it a very clear indication that he was looking for a hookup, which she was not interested in. I think she is surprised that he has been so tenacious.

    I honestly don’t have much problem with your interpretation of events.

    My question is, if Grace was attracted why didn’t she try to initiate a “date” (be it a formal 50’s style date or just a hang out date) earlier. If she’s filtering she saves time. If it succeeds she saves time.

    What’s her downside?

  • Susan,

    Grace and Brady were already attracted to one another. She gave him considerable encouragement when he suggested hanging out. He then proceeded to text her at the last minute on several occasions. She found it a very clear indication that he was looking for a hookup, which she was not interested in. I think she is surprised that he has been so tenacious.

    I still don’t think Brady is a player, but even if he is, all Grace had to do is ask him on a run or a walk or something, prior to the confrontation, and she would have had her answer.

  • Escoffier

    “But we also have to take into account that many women, even those who are beautiful, will give it up fast for the sexy alpha player or cad. Perhaps not all do, but most do. ”

    Really? “Most” women give it up fast for the cad? Really?

    Surprised Susan let that slide.

    • @Escoffier

      Surprised Susan let that slide.

      Ha, you know me well! I didn’t let it slide, it’s just taking me a while to get through all the comments. This post is already at 245 – that’s crazy.

  • Herb

    @Liza

    But they claim that they know how quality a woman behaves. Oh, really?

    Actually, scroll back, I specifically claimed the opposite and you’re moving the goal posts.

    You claimed with don’t know what traits good women have. I said we do, but they don’t display them much, some even trying to have a slut image (why is beyond me…female herd acceptance maybe?) while we have plenty of sluts in reformed virgin clothing.

    I know what they have but I’ll be damned if we can spot them. A huge reason is the pushback against judging women based on their behavior (often signed on to by good women even though it’s against their interests).

  • J

    @Deti

    LOL. As you may know, music is a big DHV to me as DH and both sons are musicians. (#2 son has a wedding gig coming up, and he’s still in high school! Forgive me, but I had to brag.) Nonetheless, I didn’t just hop into bed with DH, despite being fairly sure by the end of our first date that he was going to marry me. I completely understand your point regarding not wanting to invest a lot in someone who may be playing you, Deti, but I still don’t see the incentive for a woman to jump into bed with a guy who isn’t willing to invest more than a few hours of his time. In essence, you are asking a woman to allow herself to be played.

  • Kaikou

    @Herb is short for Herbert?

  • Kaikou

    The comments on here are way too brutal for people who “get it”.

  • Zach

    @Jason

    The only thing that you need to know here is that he only texted her after 11 while out drinking, and NEVER SAW HER OTHERWISE. Honestly you could tell me a million other things, and they wouldn’t matter. That says it all. He made absolutely no effort to make sure he’d see her. Believe me, this is coming from a guy who booty-call texts plenty. I know what it looks like, and this is it. If I’m really into a girl in a serious way, I’d make plans with her earlier in the day to meet up that night at a specific place at a specific time, in large part to avoid the impression of a booty call.

    Also, on wining and dining, I think it gets too harsh of a rap. Yes, women can use it to take advantage of men. Yes, some women view it as a sign of weakness. However, if you can afford it, it’s not a bad strategy to expand your dating/hooking up pool. I can afford to drop $150 on 2 dates with a girl every couple weeks without it being a big deal to my financial well-being. Wining and dining expands your pool from girls who will go home with you from a bar to girls who will f*ck you after a couple dates. A couple not too expensive dates for sex? Fair trade in my book. And as a guy with some experience with women, it’s pretty easy to tell on date 1 if it’s going nowhere. If you’re unsure, do a super cheap date next time (shake shack, $10). There are a lot of girls, especially high SMV ones, who won’t go home from a bar with a guy, and won’t “hang out” with him unless it’s in a date setting. It’s not necessarily that they’re looking to use him, it’s often for the same reasons Grace and Susan outlined. And who knows, on some of these dates you might find out she’s awesome and worth more of your time.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Yes, women extremely often conflate length of effort with level of effort. I’ve never understood why. Taking 2 minutes every other day to send a text is not even effort in my book.

  • deti

    Liza: “The men on here can say they have a hard time paying for dates and what not, but if that was the way for them to get laid or relationship from a woman of any SMV they would gladly do it. The only reason men are getting away with this behavior is because most women have very low expectations for themselves.”

    Herb: “I bolded that part because you’re right but you totally blow it in the next sentence. You’re not wrong per se but you’re missing a key problem.

    “Most red-pill men have learned doing the bolded part is much more likely to land you in beta-orbit land than in having a girlfriend land.”

    Herb, Liza is actually correct that if men had to wine and dine HB 4s and 5s to get sex, they’d do it. In fact it used to be that way. It was called “courtship” and “assortative mating”. It actually worked quite well because women were under pressure to choose a husband early because they knew they had a limited time window to do so, and the women who wanted a husband (i.e. more than 90% of all women) chose one.

    But the answer now is simpler than women just want to improve where they eat and cut their dining bills. It is simply that most women have to prove they are worth it before that level of investment is laid out. And most simply are not worth it, or won’t hang around long enough to prove themselves, or believe they don’t have to prove themselves.

    Moreover, the women Liza is talking about are women who would not even consider dating any man below a sex rank of 9 and a six figure income.

  • Kaikou

    @Herb who is Mr. Kettle?

  • Liza, well the funny thing is, red pill guys are easier for me to talk to because I can show my red pill knowledge. My husband is a red pill guy who came into contact with Game a few years before I did. When I became interested in him, I showed that interest clearly.

    Believe it or not, a girl with red pill knowledge and who has changed herself for the better with that knowledge is a huge catch. I showed my husband that he wouldn’t have to worry about divorce theft, alimony, cuckoldry, sexless marriage or chronic bitchiness. That put me in the running for the Mrs. role immediately.

    Red pill guys are great if you don’t set yourself up to be their enemy.

  • Alias

    Richard Aubrey:
    “They were 9/10, or at least, say, 7/8 with huge chests. When they got to college, they decided to pull it back. No makeup, pony tails, floppy sweatshirts.
    Or, in other situations, the “aura”.
    Whatever it took to get through the day.”
    ——–
    > Another way to cut back on approaches is to decrease IOIs (smiles, extended eye contact, intimate conversation, touching, giggling ). You act polite but “professional” and you get fewer approaches, you limit the IOIs only for guys you’re interested in.
    When you spot a cad you completely cut him off and he’ll usually back off, if he doesn’t- then that’s when you must be assertive about it and stick to your guns.

    __________________________________________________
    BroHamlet:
    “So yeah, I’m curious what your honest interpretation is of Grace’s personality because that’s equally important to any strategy she is employing.”
    ————
    >Yes.
    Also, when you don’t cut bad behavior off right from the start, even a good guy will mistake you for the casual type.

    __________________________________________________
    deti:
    A high quality woman would not in the first place respond to all the sexual interest she received. She has very good filters in place and has finely tuned attraction triggers.
    ———–

    > This is true if what you mean is that she puts the brakes on the escalation- not that a woman can’t respond positively to the “sexual interest”- as in- she lets him know that she’s interested but she’s not quite ready.

  • Kaikou

    @whowantstoknow

    See you over at Sir Guy’s Place. 🙂 It’s sunny there.

  • Zach

    @Herb

    Agree with you to some extent on the ballet/dinner (also, where are you finding moderately expensive dinners for $25 a person??), but I also am fine doing dates where I pay because we do activities I want to do. I’m a big fan of high-end cocktail bars (little branch, raines law room, death & co, etc), but it’s not too often me and the guys will go somewhere like that. We’ll usually just grab some beers at happy hour. So for me, I’m fine paying for a couple drinks for her while if it means I have someone to go to the bar with me for a couple hours. Or restaurants. I love trying new and interesting restaurants, and though I have some friends who do as well, they’re not always free/up for it. So I spend a little extra money (most girls don’t eat a ton) and I get to go to a restaurant I’ve been dying to go to.

  • Maggie

    @Herb
    “Women who demand dates, especially dates you pay for, in the current SMP are looking to cut their dining bill while improving where they eat”

    As a twist on what Susan said, is there nothing inbetween this and texts at 11 p.m. ? Why can’t a date be meeting for coffee, a walk in the park, a drink after work or anyplace that doesn’t cost much but where a man and woman can talk quietly for an hour or two. It involves a some time but not a lot of money.

    Texting takes very little effort. Teens easily send a hundred texts a day., there’re no big deal. I don’t see how the men here can think that another man’s texting a woman for four months, suggesting she come across town late at night to meet him, and walking her to her car after a party shows that he has any more interest in her than booty call.

  • Most red-pill men have learned doing the bolded part is much more likely to land you in beta-orbit land than in having a girlfriend land.
    —–
    Herb,
    Yes, you will be seen as that if you are playing the “nice guy” card and not letting her know you are interested in her sexually. This is the problem, not that you bought her dinner.
    ——
    I often turn down players/cads for dates because they are usually expecting sex in return. This should be no surprise.

  • Kaikou

    @Maggie I asked that question several times. I heard the sweet sound of silence.

  • Alias

    Susan,
    I think Grace did OK, but really she let it go too far.
    Unless there are some details missing, I think she kissed him too early. I’m not going to kiss some guy just because he walked me to the car, I’d be kissing every doorman and cab driver at the airport, ha ha. They weren’t even “seeing” each other then, right?
    And I would have clarified the “wine and invitation to my apt.” with a “Oh, I apologize for giving you the wrong vibes about me.”
    But that’s just me (shrugs)

  • Jon

    @Maggie I asked that question several times. I heard the sweet sound of silence.

    Not really…

    That’s what I meant by fun casual/hang-out date.

  • I think that the young man in question is just continuing the mating dance that he learned in college, where casual, non-intimidating text-based meet-ups are the norm and more chivalrous and expensive dinner-and-Gilbert & Sullivan-style courtships are not possible on typical undergraduate student budgets.

    This format appears to continue throughout a person’s twenties and it will probably become even more entrenched now that young women are doing so well in terms of education and professional achievements during this period. I do think that the traditional wining-and-dining experiences come back when older, single, relatively affluent men are operating in the dating scene; if nothing else, it can be a way to signal success and compensate for fading looks and physique.

    Re: cad filtering. I agree with several posters that the most fair system would have low-investment, conversation-rich daytime meetings (coffeehouse, perhaps wine bar) be the norm for the first several meetings. The man is not being asked to commit much in the way of money or sexual opportunity costs, since his evenings remain free; the woman is not being asked to commit in the way of giving sexual access, since these dates take place during the day and (usually) have well-defined endings.

    I don’t know how long this process should take; it would appear to need to go on for enough time for the man to have enough information to decide if he wants to date the woman exclusively and for the woman to decide if she wants to sleep with the man. I would think that, after a few meetings like this, a woman would want to know the basic outline of the guy’s background and major interests, determine if he is generally positive or negative to be around, see how he treats other people (i.e., waitstaff) and talks about people who are not present, and be able to accurately place the guy on, say, Fisher’s taxonomy of dating personality types. This can probably be done through open-ended, indirect field interview questions embedded within the normal flow of conversation (i.e., not an interrogation), but that could be the subject of another thread.

    This system definitely draws a stark distinction between casual coffee dates and romantic evenings: at the point of a formal evening date (which may involved going out to dinner or may involve one person doing the cooking), sexual release for at least the man—one way or another—will be the highly probable conclusion. I think that the more formal and traditional evening dates have become much more symbolic and serious. One major casualty of the modern SMP/feminism is the woman who formerly enjoyed being wined and dined by a slew of breathless, sex-starved prospects; most guys now see that as a sucker’s game, with the exceptions being the desperate, the true gentlemen who have been living in a bubble and happily insulated from the harsh edges of modern combat dating, and some well-heeled players who essentially just write these things off as business expenses and act this way to demoralize other men, confirm deeply-held beliefs of misogynistic prostitute archetypes, or to deliberately further the moral decay of the SMP (the same type will also “transactionalize” his relationships and frequent escort services and strip joints, however, so pick your poison here—see the aforementioned George Clooney and his antics at Scores, Playboy Mansion, etc).

  • BroHamlet

    @Hope

    BroHamlet, during emotional escalation phase, the woman can tell the guy what she wants to do to him sexually. It is said that the biggest sex organ is the brain, and revving up his imagination and anticipation is a good way to show her sexual interest. I had awesome conversations with my husband before we did anything physical. I was extremely attracted to him, and that emotional/psychological attraction turbo-charged the physical attraction. It didn’t take long for us to basically go to phone sex.

    If a guy isn’t interested in that, he’s likely not emotionally invested in her or attracted to her to get sexually turned on by non-physical stuff. It’s probably something with the Millenial generation, but people in the old days did write love letters to each other, and probably got into some sexy stuff. The emails and texts are kind of modern analogies.

    Hope, most guys are not turned on nearly as much by non-physical stuff as by the alternative. This much is very obvious about us. I think you are projecting a woman’s mindset (or probably more accurately your own mindset) about sex onto men. We’re not the same as you are. And the flipside of that coin is that a woman who’s actually attracted to you wants to have actual sex at some point sooner than later, not just talk about it on the phone, haha.

    To break down what you said:
    1) The plan is to engage in some mental stimulation over the phone
    2) If a guy is not interested in that, he’s not invested in me and not attracted if he doesn’t get much out of hearing me talk dirty while I’m miles away

    I just don’t see this working out for most people.

  • Ferret123

    The heart of this problem in today’s SMP is that almost nobody gets what they want. The only people it seems that are ‘winning’ are high status men and even then at what cost.

    As illustrated in this article, even the alpha males don’t get the best thing for themselves, the 9 or 10 woman. They go for the quick easy fix, the variety of women rated 5 – 8. What is good for you in the long run is mostly the exact opposite of what people do. Instant gratification usually is a bad idea.

    You could argue that’s what a man given to his desires wants more than anything though i.e Tiger Woods. His wife was a world class beauty and his women were to put kindly not quite supermodels. However, this also could be what the alpha ultimately desires, the uber-hot ‘alpha’ female and the concubines on the side just like ancient kings.

    Where does this leave the alpha females though? They don’t want to settle. They want someone of equal worth. They are crying about this as much as the lower status men.

    The middling females are maginally happy because they get to experience the alpha male even through it is fleeting which they will never admit.

    The ultimate losers are the guys that 7 or below. Little beta males put in their places by the alpha males and their SMV women peers that live in delusional land where they are a solid 9 to themselves but being played like a fiddle by the alphas.

    My whole take on how to fix this thing is this:

    Men have to step up. It’s our job to fight the good fight. In the end, it’s us betas that letting this happen.

    Let me explain:

    If you are male 6, I think it’s quite possible you’re not acting like a true 6. You are been beat down by the competition (alpha 8-10) that have a vested intrest in ensuring no one takes away their livestock and the females that desperately want to be alpha females and live in fantasy world. The typical male 6, acts in this day in age like a male 2.

    It accepts the lie that he isn’t good enough and doesn’t really adapt to the market to gain success. He is not meeting his full 6 potential in the least. I think a huge part of this is again the alpha using their domaniance to bully, through physical and mental means. These tactics crush the the betas and they whimper to their corner.

    My thoughts are what must be done is for the betas to almost always stand up to their alpha peers.

    The alpha will make fun or verbally assault, the solution: DON’T GIVE A FUCK and make this be known, never concede ground, make them earn every single inch.

    The alpha will intimate physically. If circumstances are dangerous then don’t care about pride and get out of it i.e City streets or unknown elements. However, in college, this is mostly hot air. These are rich kids, they don’t want to go to jail. Play the game, threathen police and legal action. They will try to shame manhood but you’re in it to win it. Don’t give in.

    What does this do for you in the dating world. The coward has confidence now from not being a wet blanket and the women can smell that a mile away. Suddenly you don’t seem like such a pussy. The women of equal SMV might think well this beta doesn’t seem so bad now.

    I really do think that for a lot middle market value women, what they want in the end is a middle market value man that acts like a man. I think that’s what ‘Game’ teaches. It teaches things that 100 years ago was taken for granted. It doesn’t turn 6s into 10s, that’s just overhyping the product so they can sell you something. It turns 6s into 6s.

  • Zach,

    From what you’ve written, I think we are very similar. Yea, he texted her at night a bunch, but it sounds like he is just out of college and that’s all he knows. Dating is dead, I’ve tried it and it either doesn’t work or it exchanges resources for sex, which I’m not interested in. You don’t have a problem with that which is fine, but not the route that I want to go anymore.

    Seriously though, what kind of player spends 4 months trying to get in some girls pants and then fires off a whiny text when he doesn’t get his way? None that I know, it just doesn’t fit.

  • Herb

    @Zach

    Agree with you to some extent on the ballet/dinner (also, where are you finding moderately expensive dinners for $25 a person??),

    The Middle East in Cambridge circa 2001 although my memory on cost could be off.

    It came complete with belly dancing. Great restaurant that everyone in greater Boston should give a try.

    @Liza

    Yes, you will be seen as that if you are playing the “nice guy” card and not letting her know you are interested in her sexually. This is the problem, not that you bought her dinner.

    If having asked advice of a closed mailing list you’re both on that was “I’m getting ballet seasons tickets and I’m seriously considering buying two to take women I’m interested in on dates…good idea?” and then a week later asking her to go to the season opener didn’t suffice to communicate sexual interest why am I supposed to say, “oh, btw, I’m asking you because I’m hoping to eventually fuck you”?

    @Maggie

    As a twist on what Susan said, is there nothing inbetween this and texts at 11 p.m. ? Why can’t a date be meeting for coffee, a walk in the park, a drink after work or anyplace that doesn’t cost much but where a man and woman can talk quietly for an hour or two. It involves a some time but not a lot of money.

    I don’t disagree. However, the discussion had clearly separated “date” dates from hang-out dates. I even indicated that a woman indicating she’s willing to cover the cost increased the willingness to take the risk.

    However, a generic demand for a date is going to set off a lot of alarm bells for a lot of men.

    I also indicated that texts had to be a conversation not on the phone for a reason (such as being at work and not wanting ears listening).

    I don’t see how the men here can think that another man’s texting a woman for four months, suggesting she come across town late at night to meet him, and walking her to her car after a party shows that he has any more interest in her than booty call.

    I never said it wasn’t. Read my posts. I suggested she ask him out much earlier instead of waiting four months for the ultimatum. She let him piss away her time by not taking the initiative OR she passed up a decent guy who is waiting for a stronger signal (although I doubt that here, but change a few details and it might be reasonable).

    Hell, I didn’t text until a couple of women started texting me.

    @Alias

    I think Grace did OK, but really she let it go too far.
    Unless there are some details missing, I think she kissed him too early.

    Agree on one, not on two. Two was okay but if he didn’t follow up with something like “come watch Girls at my place this Sunday and I’ll buy a pizza” (or the all time best version: movie and Chinese a la My Favorite Year for those who have seen it) within a week or two just ask him to come and watch the NHL playoffs with you this Thursday and see if he took the bait. In and out in a month, not four.

    An early kiss is fine but it needs early follow-up.

    @Kaikou

    Yes, it is short for Herbert and Mr. Kettle

  • Kaikou

    @Jon see my comments at 42, 60, and 62 when you have time.

  • Marie

    @ Zach
    I think most men will agree if you ask them “would you prefer a woman who’s good-looking but doesn’t know it?”. But it’s not that simple.
    I was shy and a nerd all the way through school. I started caring about my looks around 13, but I didn’t put in the right kind of effort. I’ve always been slim, blonde and ‘cute’, but I was not up for any kind of fun and my appeal was ‘killed’ by my nerdiness. I put the right effort in at 20, around 2 years ago, but I am still working on getting it right.
    I envy girls who have been ‘babes’ all along, they are used to interacting with guys and have better social skills. I’m quick to write off girls who play up sex a lot as ‘tacky’ but I still envy women who have years of experience with their beauty regimes.
    My sister was in the exact same position, she got no attention through school and later became ‘the babe’. She discovered her potential late, and is still sleeping around now in her late twenties (with a number of 40+). The only reason that didn’t happen to me is probably that I learned from her mistakes. Girls who ‘blossom’ can go one way or another. But a lot of them are single in their 30s, from what I see.

  • Herb

    @Ferret123

    Men have to step up. It’s our job to fight the good fight. In the end, it’s us betas that letting this happen.

    Yep, because we need to do more to compensate for our female SMV value peers fantasy land.

    Or we could follow your other advice

    DON’T GIVE A FUCK

    If you’re not getting one without working even harder to make up for people in fantasy land then don’t give one.

    Sex isn’t a life or death item. A girl may be more fun than my hand but if that’s all a girl is going to offer and then only after I gather the sun, the moon, and the stars life has more to offer.

    I really do think that for a lot middle market value women, what they want in the end is a middle market value man that acts like a man.

    Then they can start being middle market value women instead of princesses demanding they deserve to be treated high value.

    They can start by communicating interest which leads me to

    @Susan

    Grace is (or was) interested in Brady. Truly, really interested in getting to know him. She felt great anticipation about his initial expression of interest. She doesn’t need his money, doesn’t need any man to buy her a meal or a drink.

    Grace is not interested in seeing Brady’s penis before she knows what kind of man he is. She is attracted to him, but has no good sense of his character, intentions, or LTR fitness.

    How did she communicate that to him? Remember, I think you’re reading is more or less right, but how did she communicate to him she wanted to escalate prior to the 4 month ultimatum.

    She might have done right but she could have done better and saved herself time.

  • Kaikou

    Susan #187

    Exactly and that’s why I said @Deti is a teeter tot. Clearly we all know the answer.

  • Kaikou

    @BroHam

    I totally agree with you at #188 until you do exactly what you say Hope is doing…projecting

  • Marie

    @ Ferret123
    I’m curious, are you talking about women rated 1-10 solely based on looks, or ‘the package’?
    And would you say Elin Nordegren is a 10?

  • Kaikou

    Who knew ferrets were faster than turtles and hares (see #189)?

  • Maggie

    @Herb

    The second part of my post was not for you. Sorry I didn’t make that clear.

  • Abbot

    “A huge reason is the pushback against judging women based on their behavior”

    1judge verb \ˈjəj\
    judgedjudg·ing
    Definition of JUDGE
    transitive verb
    1: to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises

    Prior and current behavior [actions] is all there is to form an opinion. Then, are we not to do that whatsoever? Who exactly is advocating such preposterousness? Why?

  • Alias

    Herb:
    “An early kiss is fine but it needs early follow-up.”
    ———

    > One word— Context.
    An early kiss is fine if their meetings were deliberate- NOT when they just *happen* to meet at a company party or other place.
    See?
    They weren’t even “hanging out: together but just happened to bump into each other. That makes a difference for me.

  • BroHamlet, no projection on my part. I’ve known plenty of relationships to start out this way, not just mine. You might be the exception in this. Men who are in love are very romantic, and they can and do fall in love before actual physical sex.

    Studies show that men are more romantic than women:

    http://www.bakadesuyo.com/who-is-more-romantic-men-or-women

    And that men are happier when the confession of love happens before sex:

    http://www.bakadesuyo.com/when-does-i-love-you-mean-the-most-to-men-and

    So basically, it’s a win-win for the couple to fall in love, confess they love each other, and have emotionally/psychologically stimulating sexy conversations before the actual act of sex.

    My husband and I both fondly remember that initial period of our romance. It’s not just me. 🙂

  • deti

    susan 183:

    The post I wrote that you responded to was a generic description of what men do to qualify women. It really didn’t have a lot of application to Brady and Grace. I agree you don’t text a woman for months and then booty text her. That’s not going to work. What I am saying is that men’s response to the current SMP is to make women qualify themselves through two primary means: push for early sex, and limit the time and money outlay. And from what I read around these parts, for most men, these actually seem to work if the objective is to find out which women really are interested.

  • Kaikou

    @Herb

    You lost me with the Kettle…why is he calling?

    Also are you and Deti brothers?

    @Susan

    The Katy Perry story is funny.

  • Alias

    Herb

    Adding on to # 203
    The difference between kissing a guy who makes an effort to specifically meet up with you and kissing a guy you just happen to bump into is – meaningful vs. casual hookup.
    Casual hookup= no intention/knowledge that they’ll ever be a followup.

  • Ferret123

    @Herb


    DON’T GIVE A FUCK

    If you’re not getting one without working even harder to make up for people in fantasy land then don’t give one.

    Sex isn’t a life or death item. A girl may be more fun than my hand but if that’s all a girl is going to offer and then only after I gather the sun, the moon, and the stars life has more to offer.

    I was trying to say Don’t Care to alpha MALES. My point was that beta 6s act like beta 2s because we let alpha males bully us directly or indirectly. We don’t offer up competition when they challenge us.

    I think that some guys have a defeatist mentality by being dominated and they don’t offer resistance. Look you don’t have to win battles, you just have to make it so diffcult that’s it’s not worth it to fight you.

    Our goal is to make the alpha have a pyrrhic victory. Even when you compete and lose, you get a self esteem boost just knowing you fought.

    As for the over inflated value of young women, I acutally not trying to prop them up at all. I’m kind of insulting them saying they are too dumb to know what the hell is going on in the SMP and that’s it our job to adapt and win. As with any market, you have to play by market conditions. If competion is fierce get innovative and get fiercer.

    Women don’t know what they want. When the male 6 says to hell with all of this I’m going to take on all comers and win. The female 5 and 4 on a subminal level take note of this and will allow them to be taken in to their alpha.

  • Herb

    @Alias

    > One word— Context.
    An early kiss is fine if their meetings were deliberate- NOT when they just *happen* to meet at a company party or other place.
    See?
    They weren’t even “hanging out: together but just happened to bump into each other. That makes a difference for me.

    Yeah, I see your point although it’s kind of an agree to disagree.

    I’m not going to throw women in the slut box for kissing (I thought that was a silly discussion). On the whole I’m not in the N focused realm like some red-pill guys. I’m more open to context and change of character. Yes, I know what the research says but having married an N=1 (with me being the 1) and having her cheat and then leave me I think N is an imperfect correlate to real sluttiness without some context. 21 and 21 you’re a slut…ten years later at 31 and still 21 because #1 was a LTR until 26 and you’ve kept your legs shut since because you got a clue, we can talk…no promises but we can talk (Abbott is probably sticking pins in a doll of me at that one).

    I’m much more wary of princesses than sluts. In fact the biggest tell of a “reformed” slut as opposed to “learned about life and got better at it” slut is the former will princess it up thinking she deserves to be treated like she has a magic vagina while the later is willing to meet you half way because she has actually learned about life and is better at it.

  • Abbot

    “men are happier when the confession of love happens before sex”

    oh yes, and that is how it mainly goes down in other countries especially, way south. Women there are gate rulers and men know that its worth the wait because ALL men have to wait. Its MUCH easier to fall in love there as well since the women are very gentle and kind.

  • Alias

    ugh
    edit # 208
    they’ll= there will

  • “… and then a week later asking her to go to the season opener didn’t suffice to communicate sexual interest why am I supposed to say, “oh, btw, I’m asking you because I’m hoping to eventually fuck you”?”
    —–
    Herb, are you telling me that you do not know how to send out subtle sexual interest signals or say you are interested in sex without having to say “I want to fuck you” or without being crude. Wow, astounding.

    I have had guys express sexual interest; it was either how they look at me or little comments they made but without being crude or too direct.

  • Zach

    @Jonny

    I think where you and I are disagreeing is that 4 months is a lot of effort. I agree that most players will drop it, but given how little effort it is to send a couple texts I can easily see it going on. Plus, I know a couple girls who’ve been in this exact situation w/a guy for a couple months and then been dropped the moment they slept w/him.

    Re: dating is dead, it depends. I go on dates both for the following reasons: 1. It expands your pool of women you can sleep with beyond the most promiscuous. 2. I actually enjoy going to cocktail bars and good restaurants and am willing to pay a bit to do so when my friends aren’t up for it, 3. I actually am open to a relationship if a truly deserving girl comes around, and your chances of finding/learning about that girl are much better over dinner than in her bed after the bar. 4. I can afford it for the most part (IE can afford about 1-2 dates per week without much problem). I NEVER go on dates on Friday/Saturday, but it’s generally more fun to go on a date on Tuesday than stay home and watch Seinfeld.

    All of the above doesn’t mean I don’t still hit on/pick up women at bars (where do you think most of my dates come from). Most of the guys I know who are good with women do the same (ie dates and one night stands/booty calls), for mostly the same reasons as the above. Going on a date and paying is not necessarily a DLV. Just be a great conversationalist/flirter (confident, smart, witty), the same as you would be at a bar pickup, and when the check comes, just confidently pay it. If anything, it’s a DHV for a lot of women (especially high SMV ones), because it shows dropping that much money isn’t a big deal to you, which means it’s likely you’re ambitious and successful (not at all saying flaunt your wealth, that’s just crass, childish and embarrassing).

  • Herb

    @Hope

    And that men are happier when the confession of love happens before sex:

    http://www.bakadesuyo.com/when-does-i-love-you-mean-the-most-to-men-and

    Re: men are more romantic than women: guilty.

    Haven’t followed the link but your description isn’t quite mine but…

    Well, for me the meaningful times have been when I said it by accident. One, was during sex, and she made a smart-assed comment. I was going for, “And that’s why you like me” but “And that’s why I love you” came out instead. The other was similar but a bit over sharing for HUS.

    @Kaiku

    You lost me with the Kettle…why is he calling?

    Also are you and Deti brothers?

    Because accusing red-pill men of agendas is missing that pretty much every woman here has one as well. Plus, agendas aren’t inherently bad. Susan has one that I respect and somewhat support, for example.

    As for me and Deti and the name questions, is there a point somewhere around here? If you think I’m Deti’s (or anyone else’s for that matter) sock puppet, sorry, no.

    If you think we know each other, just say so or go back a thread and find my email addy and mail me.

  • Zach

    @Susan 206

    Not to mention, those three guys she doesn’t know will IMMEDIATELY throw her in the slut/booty call category. Believe me, I’ve been Brady and one of those three guys, and that’s exactly what happens. A girl who you’ve barely kissed who comes across town at your beck and call at 12:30 AM? Slut, easy, skank, etc. Brady will get high-fives from the all the guys the next morning, after they’ve asked “did you bang her?” Ironically, my ex-gf almost always came from where she was to meet me, but that was not until AFTER we’d already started dating exclusively and I’d made it clear I wasn’t going to P-and-D her. Before that, if we met up at night, it was always agreed upon beforehand, and we split the comings and goings about 50/50.

  • Herb

    @Ferret123

    I was trying to say Don’t Care to alpha MALES. My point was that beta 6s act like beta 2s because we let alpha males bully us directly or indirectly. We don’t offer up competition when they challenge us.

    I got your point, however I figured it was just as smart to skip a step. Why beat up other men to get entitled princesses. Come over and bring your instrument and jam for a bit instead…I’ve been working on Bouree by Tull on the flute. I need another flautist and two bass players if you’re interested. Plus, I’m trying to combined Jarre/Kitaro style new age with a baroque dance suite centered on the lost continent of Rutas with a touch of JAMMS/KLF influence via an old Mage: the Awakening game.

    @Liza

    Herb, are you telling me that you do not know how to send out subtle sexual interest signals or say you are interested in sex without having to say “I want to fuck you” or without being crude. Wow, astounding.

    Okay, in the course of about a month:

    1. Openly saying I was doing X to date (a conversation she was active in) and then asking here to X.
    2. Championing her as the cutest of the netgoths, against publicly.
    3. Specifically mentioning a couple of things she did were sexy.

    This woman had multiple indications of interest commenting on her sexiness and indicating I did certain things with women I was interested in and then asking her to do them plus a few conventional indicators (do men not into you buy you flowers often?).

  • Chuck Berry

    Again, with Bradys view on the interaction, this is a circle jerk; We have no clear cut of whether Brady is LTR material or not, as we can tell by the comments. You can craft a situation where he is more useless then a bag of hair and I can craft one to show him as the worlds most loving and tender man that is just bewildered by the beauty of Grace. Neither matters though because hunches and guesses are useless.

    He is a Cad because he texts her late at night, but we are ignoring the information that goes along with this, he also texts her when he is drunk . . . AKA when he has some liquid courage in his system.

    This looks like Hamster food to me.

    Chuck

  • Kaikou

    Hi Herby!

  • Chuck Berry

    “I agree, I think there is a good chance this is at least partially a misunderstanding.”

    “The more I write the more I am convinced he is 100% player. I really hope she just stops answering his texts.”

    These are not congruent statements.

    Chuck

    • These are not congruent statements.

      I know, I’m spinning this way and that, trying to figure it out, based on all the good feedback. That’s what girls do.

  • Herb

    @Kaikou: No one calls me that…

  • Ferret123

    @Herb

    I got your point, however I figured it was just as smart to skip a step. Why beat up other men to get entitled princesses.

    ——–

    I wasn’t saying fight physically. I think our experiences are different. I would get verbally put down by alphas until I didn’t care and it changed the way they responded to me and upped my self-esteem. Now I don’t concede them being better than me and it’s helped me mentally.

  • Kaikou

    so liquid courage is where the bar is set?

  • Herb

    @Ferret123

    I wasn’t saying fight physically. I think our experiences are different. I would get verbally put down by alphas until I didn’t care and it changed the way they responded to me and upped my self-esteem. Now I don’t concede them being better than me and it’s helped me mentally.

    Oh, I know not physically. At 45 I’ve learned living well is the best revenge.

    That said, why waste what I’ve built on the women that wanted them back then. If they want me now it’s only because I started winning not because suddenly they saw my real value.

    The alpha men may be part of the problem, but the women who reward them for being the problem are the people I have no interest in bailing out.

  • Herb, yes saying you think she is sexy says a lot to about how much you are interested in her sexually, IMO. I meet a guy for a date or he textes me or we are talking on the phone and he says something like “Hi Sexy” not too direct and hot. For me, a guy referring to me using “sexy” says a lot about his intentions. I can either decide to move on or continue engaging him.

  • Herb

    @Liza

    I can either decide to move on or continue engaging him.

    Yes, but I assume you will move on (if that’s what you decide) before $100+ in cash and prizes.

    Women have to prove that to me (HUS women would probably get a one round pass in general).

  • Ferret123

    ‘That said, why waste what I’ve built on the women that wanted them back then. If they want me now it’s only because I started winning not because suddenly they saw my real value.’

    I just don’t understand why that is so bad. The Game is the Game. You can’t change it as much as you can stop the sun from setting. That’s the goal, to win.

    Neither sex is noble. People are selfish. Everyone that is dissatisfied with their sex life wants to win. The way to do that is take a real view of the battlefield and make a plan to ‘win’.

    Really the only reason that anyone wants someone else is because of the value that person brings. Women it’s usually sex and men, status and resources.

  • BroHamlet

    @Hope & Kaikou

    BroHamlet, no projection on my part. I’ve known plenty of relationships to start out this way, not just mine. You might be the exception in this. Men who are in love are very romantic, and they can and do fall in love before actual physical sex.

    Studies show that men are more romantic than women:

    http://www.bakadesuyo.com/who-is-more-romantic-men-or-women

    And that men are happier when the confession of love happens before sex:

    http://www.bakadesuyo.com/when-does-i-love-you-mean-the-most-to-men-and

    So basically, it’s a win-win for the couple to fall in love, confess they love each other, and have emotionally/psychologically stimulating sexy conversations before the actual act of sex.

    My husband and I both fondly remember that initial period of our romance. It’s not just me.

    Hey, maybe I actually am projecting, but I don’t think my experience or my opinion is all that uncommon. This whole “no touch game” you are suggesting is shaky at best in my mind. I do know that men are more romantic by nature, and I can vouch for that sentiment personally. But asking men to engage in more talk than action in the age of texting, Facebook, and Foursquare sounds like a recipe for female boredom, because I am going to guarantee you my competition isn’t waiting till she’s swooning on the other end of the line to move things forward. Next time a girl gives me a chance to spend several hours with her on the phone or across a coffee table without losing interest due to lack of physicality, maybe I’ll marry her (I kid, I kid, sorta…). This might be a generational difference. From where I sit in the singles scene, talk is cheap. What you are saying flies in the face of the general social trend that a huge part of this blog’s message is based on: dominance threshold getting higher and higher for women. Understand that you are asking guys to trust that most women they meet won’t get bored with this strategy. Here I go with the projection again: This sounds like a bad idea because it assumes that women will be satisfied with touching by proxy instead of actual touching. Call it projection if you want, but I think there are too many assumptions attached to your idea.

    You are not typical, Hope, and I don’t think many of your friends probably are either. Your idea is a great one, but as I said to Susan in the “10 Reasons to Eat Your Vegetables” post, emotion makes this a whole other ballgame. You are asking people to be largely rational in an emotional arena.

    • as I said to Susan in the “10 Reasons to Eat Your Vegetables” post

      I love broccoli.

  • Alias

    Hope:

    Hope, I often find myself nodding in agreement to many of your suggestions.
    On this post, you are spot on.

    The only place where I’m not fully on board with you is with emotionally escalating via too much texts/non face-to-face contact. The reason being that I’ve seen too many people become emotionally invested with the WRONG people.

    For those who question whether Hope’s suggestion of “emotional escalation prior to physical escalation” works…. this is actually the EXACT manner in which many extramarital affairs occur.
    Many people underestimate how powerful it is to share their emotions with the opposite sex until they find themselves exchanging bodily fluids with someone. (“Oops, it just happened!” Uh, yeah.)

    So, the trick for women is to emotionally escalate and slowly escalate physically. If the person doesn’t respond- a la “friendzoning” or “emotionally unavailable” then it’s a no-go.

  • Alias

    “So, the trick for women is to emotionally escalate and slowly escalate physically.”

    ^^^^
    This is for women, where men usually physically escalate and slowly emotionally escalate.

  • Marie

    @ Susan, 233
    I don’t think it sounds that bad. What she said was already quite forward. I think she definitely should consider herself single and see what’s out there, but if he really makes an attempt to not let her go, she could meet up with him and tell him that she doesn’t want to be just ‘sort of seeing’ someone and she’s definitely not a last resort.

    It’ll feel like she’s losing her pride if she’s really really into him and dying for his affection, but I don’t think that’s the case. And she hasn’t been sending the signals that she needs his approval, after all she’s let him initiate.

    I’ve written that to a guy before, not because I doubted him but because I wanted to emphasize that I didn’t want the relationship to end up on the couch just yet (granted, we had already been on some ‘proper dates’ and I was sure of his interest in me).

  • Yes, women extremely often conflate length of effort with level of effort. I’ve never understood why.

    Easy most women are not socialized to approach so once they are interested on a guy they can spent months waiting for him to make a move for them the guy that text them once a week spent the whole week thinking about them, projection as usual and also a bit of the “attractive men are nicer than they actually are” in the case of a player he probably as a string of women he does the same to see how falls first or that night and maybe doesn’t even remember her name he just knows he got the number of a “fuckable” girl and that is more than enough, but then this is not widespread knowledge. HUS is the red pill for women in that aspect.

    However, this also could be what the alpha ultimately desires, the uber-hot ‘alpha’ female and the concubines on the side just like ancient kings.

    Tiger could had gotten an “open marriage” easily he had the money and the status, as mentioned here many women would be willing to sign on to become Mr Wood for a tenth of that even if they agree to look the other way when she finds some strange panties on the house. I think he was just thinking with his dick and finding enough enablers that he though he could get away with it, YMMV.

    @Herb
    I’m really impressed with your knowledge of rom-coms. 🙂 *ginatingle*
    Had you give it a chance to other romances like Twilight?

  • Emily

    My mom once gave me some very good “filtering” advice:
    * A guy that is serious about you won’t be trying to “hide” you. *

    So the thing to watch for is whether a guy is willing to go out with you in public, introduce you to his friends, and generally make you a part of his life. The opposite of this is the guy who only ever wants to hang out at his apartment (ie. like the relationship between Adam and Hannah in Girls).

    I also think that it’s a good idea for the girl to initiate the DTR “talk” pretty early on. Yes, it’s an awkward/difficult thing to do. But the guys are generally expected to do the approaching, so I think this is a fair trade-off.

    Being “wined and dined” doesn’t really prove anything either. If you’re dealing with a broke college student, I guess an expensive date would be a big deal. But I also don’t think that it’s a reasonable thing to expect from a young guy. And if a guy does have extra money to throw around then being taken on nice dates doesn’t really prove anything with regards to commitment.

  • Herb

    @Ferrett

    Really the only reason that anyone wants someone else is because of the value that person brings. Women it’s usually sex and men, status and resources.

    I don’t expect to get Google at below the IPO price when I never worked to build it.

    Too many women who see betas getting it together and couldn’t be bothered to support them when they were young want the fruits without the work and without providing even what they could have at 24.

  • BroHamlet, I did not say it was a strategy for men to employ. I’m saying if a woman wants to really filter, that this is the way to do it and still be able to show her interest in the man and not be totally stuck with zero prospects. Otherwise, I’d be single and whining about there being “no good men.” I took steps to help things along and make things happen. My husband and I did get in bed just a month after things heated up, which is a lot shorter timeframe than the 4 months of this story.

    From a male perspective, Ted D also had lots of back-and-forth texting with his girl prior to relationship, commitment and sex. So, if it is a personality difference, then it’s a difference between people who don’t do casual vs. people who have no problems doing casual.

  • Herb

    @Ana

    @Herb
    I’m really impressed with your knowledge of rom-coms. *ginatingle*
    Had you give it a chance to other romances like Twilight?

    My Favorite Year is a rom-com? I just thought it was a comedy with a side plot about a romance and arguably about a beta guy learning Game from an alpha in general but without specific reference to women.

    It’s also one of the most under-rated films of all times. It is one of the few movies that holds a 100% “fresh” rating on Rotten Tomatoes.

    As for Twilight, not happening. See the vampires/goths episode of Southpark to get my view.

  • Ferret123

    @Herb

    “I don’t expect to get Google at below the IPO price when I never worked to build it.

    Too many women who see betas getting it together and couldn’t be bothered to support them when they were young want the fruits without the work and without providing even what they could have at 24.”
    ——————————–

    But that’s reality. If that’s what the market dictates, that what is dictates. If you want to date young women, you have to put up with the barriers to entry.

    The way things should be has no bearing on acheiving the goal of dating twenty somethings. All you can do is use ‘Game’ and improvement to ‘win’.

    Also, I think that men try to date up as well. A 6 wants a 6 or above and very rarely wants a 5 or 4. This isn’t how hypergamy works, men date down.

  • As for Twilight, not happening. See the vampires/goths episode of Southpark to get my view.

    Heh I saw that episode knowing how South Park treats the “sects” I was worried about how was going to treat us Twihards, we got off easier than expected. I still think Park and Recreations is the best/funniest parody/reference episode for my saga so far, though.
    Fair enough.
    I also meant from other things you had mentioned and also your liking of ballet.

  • @ Liza
    Lord. You’re everything I hate about the North east coast – Boston and NYC. You’re a princess that expects to be wined and dined. You think it is your due. You think that you are entitled to it. You hate Betas, say that you turn down alphas, but have no real understanding of either.

    Only a beta will ever try and play provider game on you. Only betas will ever subscribe to paying ridiculous sums of money just to ‘bask in your presence.’

    The rest of us know that there are other women out there that are more enjoyable to be around, just as good looking as you, without the attitude or the entitlement.

  • BroHamlet

    @Hope

    BroHamlet, I did not say it was a strategy for men to employ. I’m saying if a woman wants to really filter, that this is the way to do it and still be able to show her interest in the man and not be totally stuck with zero prospects. Otherwise, I’d be single and whining about there being “no good men.” I took steps to help things along and make things happen. My husband and I did get in bed just a month after things heated up, which is a lot shorter timeframe than the 4 months of this story.

    Yeah, I get you. This is good clarification, and as I said before I like the intent. Sounds like it would take some discipline and self-knowledge. If a woman who employs this is even moderately attractive, she’s going to have offers that could derail the entire effort. She’d have to be the type to forsake the need for attention and focus on her goal. You, for one, sound like you have enough girl game to pull this off, because you obviously made it work for you.

  • Alias, that is my point precisely. Emotional entanglement between opposite sexes is very much what lead to sexual attraction and possibly love. If a woman has no idea how to evoke this response in men, then she is just as bad off as the guy who has no idea how to make women tingle.

    Face-to-face time was impossible for us in the very beginning, but I agree it is important because of the potential for lying. In our case we took lots of steps to make sure of transparency. He played the guitar for me on the phone, because a guy had lied to me in the past about being able to play the guitar. But the possibility for someone lying to your face exists, too.

    Susan, I have a question. Did Grace ever do emotional escalation? Like, conversations asking him about his past? What he did in school, his last girlfriend, what his hobbies, interests and goals are? What his favorite music and movies are? What his family and friends are like? Getting to know somebody is a give-and-take, and it does not have to only happen on an official date, in a park or on a stroll.

    Having a nice conversation about work or other superficial things don’t really mean anything. You have to go deeper (TM; Inception-style).

    • Did Grace ever do emotional escalation? Like, conversations asking him about his past? What he did in school, his last girlfriend, what his hobbies, interests and goals are? What his favorite music and movies are? What his family and friends are like?

      I know they had good talks on the few occasions they did meet, including this kind of conversation. But it was very early getting to know you stuff. I think Grace feels that she’s never really had the opportunity to cement that connection. Though it sounds like people believe she should have taken a more active role.

      Honestly, late night texts are a red flag for good reason. If Brady really likes her, he should know better. As Zach said, guys are aware that a legit girl is going to react poorly to being put in the booty call list, so why risk that confusion?

  • Joe

    On filtering 101 for men…

    Do the guys want one?

    It would be an interesting read.

    But I’ll bet dollars to donuts that the 20 something men here will interpret it as “This is what women think a high-quality woman is,” which is quite a different thing than a filter that they’ll be ready to accept.

    I fear the reality is that Alpha males aren’t too interested and Beta males are too ready to open up the filters to allow almost anyone who meets the minimum requirements (which aren’t all that high to begin with).

    • @Joe

      But I’ll bet dollars to donuts that the 20 something men here will interpret it as “This is what women think a high-quality woman is,” which is quite a different thing than a filter that they’ll be ready to accept.

      I think you’re right. I get enough pushback from guys on the advice I give to women, why even go there?

  • – On the issue of committing emotions and sex

    I think a quality woman is more than within her rights to escalate the commitments of emotions, time, and money from a man.

    However, I think it should be expected that as she does so, she is willing to receive and act upon sexual escalations from the man.

    I think that women should not be put off by men trying to escalate sexually – it is our ONLY WAY of being able to learn your nature and how you might have received similar sexual advances in the past. At least, the only way short term. As a relationship develops there are long term tells and getting to know your friends/past.

    So, meet sexual escalation with emotional and commitment escalation. Its the only way that both sexes can each vet the other for players, sluts, cads, and entitlement princesses.

    Sexual escalation does not necessarily mean sex. It means physical touch that makes a man feel masculine. Early escalation can be holding hands, putting your hand on his arm, his chest, laying your head in his lap during a movie. Basically anything that is submissive, delicate, and feminine in body language. Doing this while following his leadership on dates, plans, etc is how you can escalate sexually without upping your partner count while you also escalate emotionally.

    If the man is interested in a relationship, he will likely continue to push sexually as you push for relationship, but he will still be CONTENT under all that knowing that the bond is being formed. And that it is not a bond where he is setting up long term patterns of him getting screwed over on his needs while yours are met.

    • @Leap of a Beta

      I think a quality woman is more than within her rights to escalate the commitments of emotions, time, and money from a man.

      However, I think it should be expected that as she does so, she is willing to receive and act upon sexual escalations from the man…

      If the man is interested in a relationship, he will likely continue to push sexually as you push for relationship, but he will still be CONTENT under all that knowing that the bond is being formed. And that it is not a bond where he is setting up long term patterns of him getting screwed over on his needs while yours are met.

      +1

  • Alias

    Emily:
    “So the thing to watch for is whether a guy is willing to go out with you in public, introduce you to his friends, and generally make you a part of his life”
    ——–

    This one’s not so clear cut. Introducing you to friends may mean nothing.
    Introducing you to family, his boss/coworkers, etc. – IOW, other people who may not be willing to back him up if he’s playing you, the ones who he must show his “best self” to.

  • Ferret123

    @Leap of a Beta

    “The rest of us know that there are other women out there that are more enjoyable to be around, just as good looking as you, without the attitude or the entitlement.

    But wouldn’t those women be in short supply given that the conclusion is that most young women overvalue themselves leading again to fierce competition.

    The reality is that if you want young twentysomething women you have to do what is necessary under market conditions.

  • Marie

    @ Hope

    “a guy had lied to me in the past about being able to play the guitar”

    No woman deserves that!

    Sorry it made me laugh.
    Anyway, I’m learning a lot about emotional escalation. I’ve realized I’m closed up. The guy I’m dating has been the first one to bring up all of those things.

  • @ Ferret
    “But wouldn’t those women be in short supply given that the conclusion is that most young women overvalue themselves leading again to fierce competition.

    The reality is that if you want young twentysomething women you have to do what is necessary under market conditions.”

    Absolutely. But I’d much rather spend time with 1 of them that I got by actual personality and skill than 20 women that would leech me of my time, energy, and money with no guarantee of any return of interest.

    Life is too short for me to be interested in giving any part of it to those that don’t appreciate it or aren’t worth it. That’s the heart of the red pill – realizing that most women aren’t worth any real commitment between now and when you die.

    Which is why men that know better will, can, and do expect sex early or signs of sexual escalation that are in sync with those that a woman is asking of us in terms of our lives and resources.

  • Marie, well that’s not a huge deal, but lying is crappy regardless. On his part, some girl who was really overweight gave him cleverly angled face shots, so he had no idea until he actually saw her in person. So yeah my husband asked me for lots of pictures, and I obliged.

    I do have to admit, similar to J, that musical talent is very attractive. Our son might learn to play the guitar, too, and that’s a total lady-killer. 😛

  • Ferret123

    @Leap of a Beta

    I’m not encouraging being a player at all. I agree with the Be the Best Man You Can Be link you have there. You be the best you can be and try your ass off and if that doesn’t work you regroup and try again.

    The one thing I’m against is complaining about how it is since it’s not changing any time soon.

  • Forgot to respond to this part:

    “The reality is that if you want young twentysomething women you have to do what is necessary under market conditions.””

    Saying that you need to take a woman out on dates and pay for her in today’s SMV, that it is part of the current market condition, is an outright lie. It is a hold over of pre-feminist courting rituals that expressed that men did this to show interest and that women were required to make a choice either way very quickly. A whole community would know if a man was courting a woman, or multiple men courting a woman. In order to not be seen as a woman trying to sell herself, she either had to let him know early she wasn’t interested or show that she would show fidelity to him through marriage.

    Now a date doesn’t get you a kiss, ESPECIALLY if you see it as a way to get one. Sometimes it doesn’t even get you a number or a second date. It only gets you an empty wallet, a feeling of hollow emptiness as a man, and a full stomach for the woman that never intended to take it anywhere further to begin with. Sometimes, if the guy is super-beta-orbiter 2.0, this can happen multiple times.

    And no, before women cry out, I’m not saying that a date SHOULD purchase you anything. But if a guy takes you out for dinner/drinks, don’t even try to lie to yourself or him that his intentions weren’t clear unless he outright states its for business, as a friendship, or is in a relationship. Anything else vague or unspecific about why he’s asking you to drinks, food, coffee…. well, he wants to pursue you.

  • Richard Aubrey

    This is probably going to seem repetitive, but I think it works here.
    When in college, I had at least two tracks or categories of women I knew. One was the category of women I dated.
    One was the category of women with whom I worked in class, field projects, part-time employment. For some reason I cannot figure, it never occurred to me to try to date from the second category.
    The second category included a number of eights and up–’cause I got myself a gig with a sorority field project was one reason–who knew I wasn’t entirely unclear on their physical attributes.
    However, after a certain time passed, the reflexive presumption I was going to go after her/them faded due to lack of use. That included filters. We got along famously as people. I got to know them and they me. It was great. They saw me being competent and confident in whatever it was, useful and sometimes forceful, although rarely toward them.
    If I can take a lesson from this, it would have two components. Women will go for guys they like, even if it takes time. You broadcast your value by not chasing them–because, although surrounded by attractive women, you’re not needy. In fact, some of the feminine ways of getting things such as lab help–batting eyes, standing hipshot, etc.–don’t work. Make the case like a person and we’ll see. Those I could spot and indicate impatience.
    And then I got IOIs, which I didn’t interpret correctly for a couple of decades. Even from 9s and 10s.
    Secondly, to make this work in the second category, you need a first category in order to be seen as socially active, not a recluse, and not needy.
    So perhaps one of the best attributes to display is being not needy, and competent among women.
    I dunno. Seems to be something there.

  • @ Ferret
    Ah, ok. I misunderstood.

    I still hold that you are only required to wine and dine the entitlement princesses. That all others don’t have formal dating as a requirement for early dating before sex happens and that this is only what women are trying to sell men. And sell themselves as a hamsterization of why they think they’re entitled to it without anything in return.

    Because of course they’re a ‘quality woman unlike any other.’

    Otherwise, be the best man you can be. Sell yourself, show yourself, know your own value. And know that a woman has to show you she’s worth any small part of that value before you give it to her.

  • Ferret123

    @Leap

    I didn’t mean buying her things. I meant you had to compete with the other men.

    Like: Not worshipping her, having high self esteem, being firm and decisive, going to the gym regularly, eating right, being good at a sport/hobby.

    If the market says that a 23 rated 6 is selling for an 8 then that’s what you have ‘pay’ to get her.

  • @ Ferret
    I found another way to say it.

    The man who knows his own value and sets his own market conditions will do better in this market than the one who doesn’t. They’re able to do this because most of women’s tingle triggers ™ are set off by confidence, preselection, charisma, and leadership.

    So ignore the market for the most part. Don’t limit yourself to the 8’s, 9’s, and 10’s, but don’t be afraid of them either. They’re still human, sexual, and want a man who knows he’s a man.

  • Mireille

    Grace did exactly the right thing. I have had guys texting, wanting to basically “text-date”, no face to face interaction until it’s time to seal the deal. No thanks. Even if those guys believe genuinely they are making efforts, it is still subpar.
    I’m still amazed that some men would want to invest little to zero efforts to seduce and date women yet expect to get all the perks and advantages they provide. I’m sorry but as a friend told me, “a non employee gets no benefits”, and whoever gets/give them without contract is a fraud.
    I’m just happy most guys I know still ask women out, it’s cute and really put in focus the idea of forming a couple and selecting each other, so it weeds out the least serious candidates. I always consider that a guy who doesn’t ask me out and follow up with an actual date are not interested, because I’m sure that if I were a 9/10, they would run even for the chance at a ONS, let alone a LTR.

    • @Mireille

      I think I recall you saying you are French? I’m curious how your dating marketplace differs from ours. Do young men and women go out on dates as a pair? What are the expectations re the timing of sex?

  • Maggie

    @modernguy
    ” A girl is not less of a slut because she prefers her promiscuity in the form of serial monogamy.”

    Promiscuity is defined as “the practice of casual sex with multiple sexual partners.” This is not the same thing at all as serial monogomy.

  • Is Kaikou Plain Jane?

    On the fence…. but she is in my watch, the ideas are the same but the style is a bit different. I will let others chime in and wait for a clearer “tell”

  • OffTheCuff

    Mag: “Promiscuity is defined as “the practice of casual sex with multiple sexual partners.” This is not the same thing at all as serial monogomy.”

    How long is monogamy? 1 year? 1 month? 1 day? 1 hour?

    If you think about it, everyone’s “monogamous” unless they’ve had a threesome. Woo!

    • If you think about it, everyone’s “monogamous” unless they’ve had a threesome. Woo!

      Haha, that was my biggest laugh of the day. I love this “job.”

  • OffTheCuff

    Yes it’s PJ, on multiple handles.

    • @OffTheCuff

      Yes it’s PJ, on multiple handles.

      You are the best Plain Jane detector around. I don’t know how you do it. I’m always worried about offending a new commenter with a wrongful accusation.

  • Maggie

    @OfftheCuff

    Casual sex would be sex outside of a committed relationship where neither partner is falling in love.

    Now if the three of you were committed and in love…idk.

  • Susan, it is true about late night texts. But a lot of young guys have next to zero manners nowadays, so it’s hard to say. The fact that he’s supposedly attractive and confident point the dial toward player, but most players don’t date at work either.

    I think the best thing is to not let something like this drag on for so long. It’s interesting that Brad was the one who sent the message about her not being willing to take it to the next step. Maybe in his mind she was flaking or something.

    Also you said Grace is emotionally guarded. That’s not really good. You can’t be all filter with no catch. They say you catch more bees with honey than vinegar. Sure there has to be a way to stop the nasty flies from coming in, but even the bees might only circle for a bit if there’s no certainty of honey at the other end.

    • @Hope

      Also you said Grace is emotionally guarded. That’s not really good.

      Agreed, but there are many men who would happily take advantage of Grace. 🙁 If she had not been guarded these last few years, her count would be high. I would guess at least 20. Aside from the liability of that sexual history, all that “just kidding, don’t want a relationship!” really destroys something in women. A woman is better off being careful, even at the risk of catching some good guys in the filter.

  • Johnycomelately

    Seems like there is a player hiding behind every bush in these parts, genuine players are quite rare, even high SMV guys are rarely players.

    Never underestimate the power of human stupidity, most guys are bumbling idiots around women and wouldn’t know the rules even if it was written on the back of their hands.

    • @Johnycomelately

      Seems like there is a player hiding behind every bush in these parts, genuine players are quite rare, even high SMV guys are rarely players.

      Perhaps, but the cost for handling a player poorly is quite high for women. It’s no wonder that women see players lurking everywhere. Also, I believe that very high SMV women get a disproportionate amount of attention from players. One woman told me she feels like she’s always surrounded by wolves, always sniffing.

  • @ Susan
    Haha, thanks Susan.

    Currently dealing with some of the issues involved with this problem, which is why I’ve gotten invested in the comment thread. It’s an…. interesting situation that I haven’t dealt with before.

  • Think Like A Man

    Attractive women only filter out attractive players when they are ready to settle down. Until then the only filtering out they do is filtering out unattractive men. The hookup scene is filled with plenty of attractive women hooking up with equally attractive men. Has anyone else here seen the recent movie “Think Like a Man” based on Steve Harvey’s book?

    • @Think Like a Man

      Attractive women only filter out attractive players when they are ready to settle down. Until then the only filtering out they do is filtering out unattractive men.

      Definitely not the case with Grace. She’s beautiful, 22, one year out of school. The combination of her looks and her low count can only be explained by her having kicked many a cad to the curb.

  • Senior Beta

    Thank God for old age. I would go insane doing this Kabuki dating/hookup shit. But my three kids will have to figure it out. The Susan-deti exchange at 183 crystallizes the opposing positions as well as anything. One question: who takes their mask off first?

  • J

    @deti

    It’s back to combat dating, the tug of war….

    To a certain degree, it always has been a tug of war centered around trading sex for resources. I think that goes back to the caves, but I also think it reached its apex in the 50s and 60s when girls were taught to hold out for that “good provider.”

    1. The financial and social costs, nearly all of which is borne by men. … either of which can result in lost jobs, ruined careers, reputation destruction and even criminal prosecution.

    So therefore, any woman who goes out with a guy owes him immediate sex? Really?

    She either is attracted sexually, or she is not. There is no in between. Sexual attraction is almost always instantaneous.

    And a woman should bed every guy she feels chemistry with? With no investigation of character? Why? So you can berate for having a high number later? I’m still where I was in my first post of this thread. First dates should be low investment for for everyone. No big financial investment on the guy’s part, no sex.

    Thus, I don’t agree that the man should need to put out time for her so she can get to know him or make a reasonable decision about him. The attraction and “spark” is either there, or it is not there.

    If a woman is not worth a guy’s time, she should realize that she is worthless to him.

    • And a woman should bed every guy she feels chemistry with? With no investigation of character? Why? So you can berate for having a high number later?

      Yes, that’s a sneaky tactic, that is.

  • Think Like A Man

    “@Eff why is he only texting her when he is out already? No plans ahead of time. Also mentioning he wants more and to see her apartment? Come on. Clearly a player…

    I have a guy who has been texting me every month. Surprisingly it’s always on his day off and always at night. Also it never asks anything just makes statements with a smiley face with sunglasses at the end. Can someone say mass texts?

    I also lately have seen him out after not seeing him for months. I always blow him off and he makes a point of saying hi to me when clearly I am ignoring. Again player.

    I hope that Grace holds her ground. If he wants to be with her (longterm/seriously) – she wouldn’t have to tell him how to improve. The effort would be there.”

    I disagree. I also disagree with Grace. He might be a player but from the little information we have here it doesn’t seem likely. He didn’t pursue her while he had a gf, he waited until they broke up. He’s given plenty of oppurtunity for HER to ask HIM out to that 7pm dinner or jog that she seems to so badly want. Why hasn’t she stepped up HER game?

    Do you know how many women there are who are getting ZERO texts from men and would totally appreciate and lap up this kind of attention like a puppy? Quite frankly both these women sound like they suffer from a case of PPS – Princess Privelege Syndrome.

    How about knocking it down a few notches ladies and putting in some effort yourselves? You say you’re better off not getting any attention at all if the attention is going to be “half assed”. OK, lets see how well you would do getting ZERO attention from men. I’m willing to bet you’d start complaining and missing the half assed attention, perhaps even begging for it.

  • J

    @SW

    A woman who has sex (and the accompanying risk of pregnancy and disease) as the payment for a meal at Applebee’s is batshit insane.

    Oh, no, Susan, there are no risks for women in the SMP. Only men face risk.

    BTW, I recently saw an article on the net in which Russell Brand claimed to still be in love with Katy Perry–not that they both aren’t nuts.

  • Think Like A Man

    “If the babe is hot and a catch more than likely she is traditional and needs someone who will SHOW he is interested.”

    Isn’t this just an assumption that good looking people are somehow more moral than average looking people? Where is the evidence for this?

  • Think Like A Man

    “Grace is (or was) interested in Brady. Truly, really interested in getting to know him. She felt great anticipation about his initial expression of interest. She doesn’t need his money, doesn’t need any man to buy her a meal or a drink.”

    And yet she asked him why he didn’t ask her out for a 7pm dinner, presuming which she would expect him to pay for based on the “who invites pays” rule. He has texted her several times over 3 months, showed interest, even politely ASKED if he could kiss her. No, no, no this guy is not a player. She has had plenty of oppurtunity to ask him to that 7pm dinner, why hasn’t she? She has not reciprocated his interest at all. If this oppurtunity fails to launch it is her fault, not his.

    • And yet she asked him why he didn’t ask her out for a 7pm dinner, presuming which she would expect him to pay for based on the “who invites pays” rule.

      No, that’s not accurate. She does not expect him to pay. However, re the communication, they have both been following the “male initiates, woman responds” model. I don’t disagree that Grace should be willing to initiate if she is interested. She clearly has perceived that he is looking for sex rather than a relationship, perhaps under the assumption that a good-looking 22 yo guy would prefer sexual variety. This is the dilemma of high SMV women – most men they are attracted to will not wish to commit.

  • J

    But in reading what you described to women in my range reads like this:

    1. Ballet tickets
    2. Flowers when you pick her up
    3. Dinner at a moderately ($50/2) expensive restaurant

    for a first date. Add it up, that’s easily $100 spent on her (I would have gone to the ballet and probably dinner without her).

    That’s a ridiculous first date IMO for a number of reasons:

    1. The attention of both people will be on the ballet and not each other
    2. It makes the guy look like a desperate pushover
    3. It raises suspicion on the part of the woman that the man will expect sex as reciprocity for the dinner/ballet tickets
    4. It should make a guy suspicious as to whether or not the woman is a golddiggerif hse is the one who pressed for the big evening.

    If a man wants to get to know a woman and vice-versa, coffee is enough for starters.

  • J

    Yes, that’s a sneaky tactic, that is.

    LOL. Ya think?

  • A definite beta guy

    As long as she offered a low investment date, then Grace didn’t do anything wrong. Good for her

  • J

    @Hope

    Let me know when your son learns guitar, and I will teach you the fine art of FB stalking teenage girls without anyone’s knowledge. It’s a mother’s duty. 😉

  • @ Susan
    I have a feeling that the guy in the original post asked her out last minute, to hang out with friends for a very simple reason:

    He was just in a relationship and doesn’t know how to respond or act properly.

    He asked to be kissed. He pursued her. He asks her to things that are low commitment, yes, but also ones that are unlikely to be seen as either too forward, too needy, too clingy, or paying too much. He texts with emoticons, something any player or PUA will tell you NOT TO DO. They’re used much to often and set a very effeminate tone. They also take away a lot of the fun in innuendos and double meanings that are fun and flirty.

    Finally, no player or PUA would ever contaminate his work life with his love life. Losing a career to harassment suites is never worth it if you’re able to get quality women outside of work.

    He could very easily not respond after that final confrontation because he went through all this effort and his Beta feelings are beta-butt-hurt.

    • @Leap

      He asks her to things that are low commitment, yes, but also ones that are unlikely to be seen as either too forward, too needy, too clingy, or paying too much.

      This is very insightful. There is a possibility this guy is a good guy – not all the way to Impostor Asshole, but still having enough Game to avoid shooting himself in the foot.

      It may be that in this particular instance he overplayed his hand with a woman very sensitive to cad indicators.

      This is the modern SMP – there is a great likelihood of misunderstanding and missed opportunities. A few get straightened out, and turn into funny stories you’ll tell the kids someday, but many more potential matches never come to fruition.

  • Tom.s

    Does anyone else get a laugh every time Susan uses the phrase “keep your knees together!” ?

  • A definite beta guy

    He is not a player. He is a guy who has decent looks and was able to work a college script very well. Thus, he has no REAL game.

    Maybe he is a good guy, but grace should not take the risk, just like I’d tell Brady not to take the risk on grace if she was a slut

  • Think Like A Man

    “She clearly has perceived that he is looking for sex rather than a relationship, perhaps under the assumption that a good-looking 22 yo guy would prefer sexual variety.”

    So good looking men are assumed to be less moral while good looking women are assumed to be more moral than the general average looking population.

    If this guy was a player then why would he have a girlfriend and wait until they were finished until he pursued Grace? It just doesn’t add up.

    • @Think Like a Man who is probably Plain Jane

      So good looking men are assumed to be less moral while good looking women are assumed to be more moral than the general average looking population.

      It has nothing to do with morality. Good looking men may be presumed to have more sexual options.

  • Rachel

    I’ve found one of the best filters for cad is to notice how smooth and/or confident he is when he speaks with you. Some questions that I think about are: Does he seem to always have the right thing to say? Is his confidence level high? Does he seem self-centered? Does he ask for intimacy fast? Does he dismiss concerns about moving too quickly? And does he plan dates?

    The situation with Brady concerned me when he asked to kiss her outside the meeting because that was really forward since they hadn’t even gone on a date. Then his comment when she voiced a concern about dating and being coworkers:

    “Because there are only two ways things could get awkward. One is if I tell anyone else our business, and the other is if I act like a dick. I have no intention of doing either.”

    In my experience, that comment is too smooth and too self-centered. He’s assuming that he’s the only one who can make the situation awkward. But when two people in a workplace are interested in each other, it can often become apparent to coworkers.

    In my own life, the more confident and forward a guy is with me, the less I am interested. Often being smooth and confident mean that the guy has a lot of practice with charming women. I prefer men who are a little nervous and don’t always say the right things. That means giving some (or a lot) of encouragement to men who do interest me because they are usually the ones who don’t approach me.

    • @Rachel

      In my own life, the more confident and forward a guy is with me, the less I am interested. Often being smooth and confident mean that the guy has a lot of practice with charming women. I prefer men who are a little nervous and don’t always say the right things. That means giving some (or a lot) of encouragement to men who do interest me because they are usually the ones who don’t approach me.

      Welcome to the world of women who don’t prefer cads and players! I’ve heard a lot of women say they felt charmed and attracted by a bit of nervousness. It communicates sincerity, a big plus for women who avoid casual sex.

  • Jayne

    Hi
    I’m in need of quick advice, well not really advice just some opinions. I know that you all are a pretty touch crowd but Im going to do it anyway.

    I am a junior in college and will be a senior in the fall…and last year I met a guy who was interested in me. I think he would be classified as Alpha. When we met I was not interested in a relationship with him or any other man…but I was not opposed to some sexy time. After about maybe 4-5 months of him texting me and me blowing him off we eventually had sex. (He spent the night. Im not sure if that is relevant) To make a long story short we eventually had sex maybe 3 times in a couple of months then I stopped talking to him. I mean he would text I would respond but no ‘hanging out.’

    Time passed I thought he forgot about me but he kept texting me anyway. He even called sometimes and I never answered. Today he saw me on the bus, I didnt speak to him and he didnt speak to me. But he text me right after I got off the bus and wondered why I couldn’t speak to him. After maybe one or two text he asked me when was I going to be his girlfriend?? I told him he was funny and he said he was very serious. He told me I shouldn’t think he only wanted sex…sometimes it could be more than that. I told him I didnt want to date him and we sent a couple of text after that but I haven’t responded to his last one.

    I guess Im asking…is he really serious? Or is this game? I told this story because some men will even pretend to be interested in a relationship and even ask a girl to be their girlfriend and not even want her.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    My 2 cents.
    Not enough information to determine with any certainty.

    But.
    I suspect she just rejected a good guy.
    Why?
    -asked to kiss, pursued four months, 3 seperate dates, constant texting
    If he is a player I want to know what school of learning is preaching beta game.
    Also broke up with his girlfriend THEN asked Grace out. We can say it was quick but perhaps it had been headed south for a while.

    Also, he was the one that accused her of lack of investment which is true.
    Putting myself in his shoes.
    Three good dates, girl proves she not a slut and shes hot (and I’ll assume nice and pleasent to be around). Gold mine, jackpot get the fireworks out.

    Then I invite her out for a night. Flake.
    Rinse, repeat multiple times. Flakes over and over again.

    The only concern is the late night texts but let me provide a few alternatives.
    1. He’s an idiot who forgets his phone everywhere including but not limited to arms of chairs, bathrooms, stores etc. and generally dislikes texting.
    2. He’s was trying to take it slow and do group dates. (Beta move.)
    3. Good way to introduce her to friends. (Why the assumption they are all male?) Isn’t that typically how it goes, friends then family?
    4. Not speaking for anyone else but as an uni student I knew multiple bouncers, club, restauraunt and bar owners etc. So I typically had tables/booths/couches reserved for me and showed up whenever I wanted to. I usually left at 11 (or began herding people at that point). He’s right out of college so that is still a possibility. (I realize its a different city but ppl can be met fast if you know your way around.)

    However, better safe than sorry.

    If I had one recommendation for her is to show a reciprocation of interest because she didn’t really signal (at least by your description) anything that said ‘I want to date you’ only ‘That was fun, now get lost’.

    @J

    Your description of the intial first few dates matches what I see as best for both boy and girl. Low investment on both their parts.

    • @Lokland

      Then I invite her out for a night. Flake.
      Rinse, repeat multiple times. Flakes over and over again.

      Wait, isn’t flaking saying yes and then not following through? She didn’t do that. She said no to late night meetups.

      I think it’s possible that Grace rejected a good guy. But I also think that given the information she had, she made a good decision. Deti is right, this is combat dating, the Principle of Least Interest in action. Both parties have a lot to lose, so it’s not surprising some would play it safe. Better to lose out on one good guy than get P&D’d, IMO.

      OT: Are you a married man?

  • Sassy6519

    One woman told me she feels like she’s always surrounded by wolves, always sniffing.

    So very true.

    On another note, I guess now would be a good time to say that I’ve stopped seeing the guy I’ve mentioned a few times.

    The reason being……..

    wait for it……..

    he was too beta for me.

    I hate myself for it, but the attraction just kept waning the more and more beta he was acting. I started feeling like he was better off as a friend instead of a lover.

    I had enough respect for him at least to not request that we remain friends. He probably needs another female “friend” like he needs a hole in the head.

  • sweetsue

    BroHamlet

    How to show sexual interest w/o intercourse? Or with simultaneous male investment (if that’s even what she wants)?

    Not that hard if you actually like a guy. Be touchy-feely, find excuses to touch him and be close, and make it clear that you like him in a physical way. That’s assuming you actually DO like him in a physical way. If you don’t, it’s pretty much doomed from jump. One or both of you will lose interest pretty quickly.
    – Thanks for the clarification – that was a question for me too
    @Abbot 25 Men who show up with higher standards for life-mate selection are both feared and shamed.

    This gem is spot on though it should read People because it is the same for women. In todays post feminist “empowerment” sex any way we want it on our term and everything else we have always wanted is our right mindset society – women who are not drinking that Kook Aid and who have their own standards and go their own way are feared and shamed.

    @Herb – My gf and I communicate a lot by text and by that I mean communicate.

    The difference Herb is that she is your gf not someone you just met and want to get to the gf bf semi committed but not married potential LTR stage. In the GF/BF stage texting is fine especially for cube inhabitants

    I think @Marie is saying in the early getting to know you just dating but not gf bf stage or earlier texting is less acceptable.

    Dating does not have to be a formal dinner – spend lots of $$ – it could be coffee and a browse through a museum or art gallery, walk along the beach, – it is in the actions. Texting is a low level of effort. The actions do not have to be big and formal like a “date” date but a there have to be actions.

    A sure fire way to filter out cads and players is to see if the words and actions match. If the words express interest but the actions are ambiguous and it is not clear that the interest is genuine or if a woman is not clear on the message being sent – see if actions match the words.

    @Abbot 121
    Is there going to be a – “Filtering advice for men” post?

    Filtering advice for men (people) – hmmm

    Again actions and words should match – let the person show you who they are by their actions – if the goal is a LTR.

    Pay attention to how she/he treats other people.

    Pay attention to what is said and how it is said – is it said in such a way as to not disrespect the other party in the conversation.

    How does she/he spend her/his time? Has a plan – goals ambitions dreams and is moving toward them

    What are her/his favorite past times or is it just mindless chatter and fluff? shows an active and curious mind

    Is it all about him/her? Shows an awareness of those around them and the world at large – not totally self absorbed, self centered selfish greedy.

    How eager is the person to get to the more physical aspects of the relationship – too soon may indicate poor impulse control or it could be spontaneity – more information required. By too soon, which is relative – ask yourself even though you may be seeing how far you can get as a fitness test – do you think she knows you well enough or you know her well enough to actually go there at this time.

    Keep in mind sometimes women will hold back on the physical aspects of a relationship not so much to fitness test you – but to fitness test herself. In short to maintain a clear head and make sure any emotional investment is wise – a woman who knows herself will hold off on physical escalation. Men are not the only ones who can get muddy thinking when hormones over rule brain cells. Physical escalation can for some women bring with it emotional escalation and investment and to keep a clear head while evaluating his actions and words to vector check them and vet the situation for possibilities for the long term.

    Food for thought – all people with self respect and a sense of self preservation filter.

    There are some toxic, lazy, crazy folks out there. The only know if a person should come with a warning label is to take time to pay attention and assess the person and their character and if you see trouble coming cross the street!

    Excellent post – sorry to wade in so late – long busy past few weeks – missed being able to read this blog.

  • Kaikou

    Lady Susan,

    I emailed you if you want to know more about me. I wonder why I have to prove myself, just to comment here. But seriously, who is Plain Jane? Is she here? *waves*

  • Think Like A Man

    @ Jayne, “I guess Im asking…is he really serious? Or is this game?”

    What does it matter? You said you didn’t want to date him and only wanted what you call “sexy time” so why do you care?

  • Sassy, I appreciate your honesty re: the fallen beta contestant.

  • Think Like A Man

    “Is it all about him/her? Shows an awareness of those around them and the world at large – not totally self absorbed, self centered selfish greedy.”

    So that leaves Randians out then presumably.

    “Keep in mind sometimes women will hold back on the physical aspects of a relationship not so much to fitness test you – but to fitness test herself. In short to maintain a clear head and make sure any emotional investment is wise – a woman who knows herself will hold off on physical escalation. Men are not the only ones who can get muddy thinking when hormones over rule brain cells. Physical escalation can for some women bring with it emotional escalation and investment and to keep a clear head while evaluating his actions and words to vector check them and vet the situation for possibilities for the long term. ”

    Good points. Men expecting women to sexually escalate quickly or respond to quick sexual escalation need to ask themselves if they are prepared to bare the brunt of the emotional escalation that often accompanies sexual activity.

    “a woman who knows herself will hold off on physical escalation. ”

    Not if she knows she just wants sex. Like Jayne above, sometimes women just want some “sexy time”.

  • Kaikou

    Mrs. Susan I sent you an email.

  • OffTheCuff

    PJ has got about 5 handles on this thread going. Full attack mode!

    New handle + long thread + no introduction + same writing style + solid understanding of SMP jargon + thinly veiled manhate + horrible acting with self-referential terms nobody would ever say about themselves (“I’m only 20 and just getting started) = PJ

  • Given the title and subject matter of this post, we are predisposed to think of this woman as high value. However, given the facts of the situation (and minus a photo), there are two likely possibilities:

    1) His game sucks. This filter will take care of this guy, but seriously? I’m offended this guy is even considered a “player”. His game is a joke. And given how apparently “handsome” he is, I think it’s more likely…

    2) She’s not that attractive. It’d be easy for him to drop some attention at work to get the ball rolling with her, but he only hits her up when he’s out for the night? Clearly a booty call. If she was hot, only guys with the WORST game wouldn’t take her on a date, if just for coffee or happy hour drinks.

    Yes, this will filter out “players”, but none worthy of the name. A better way, albeit ego-blasting (not that that would necessarily be a bad thing), would be to get an honest assessment of her SMV and then only go for guys with a similar rank. If you want a more in-depth explanation , here’s the link:

    http://genuineapproach.com/2012/05/girl-help-an-honest-assessment-part-1/

    • @theMac

      A better way, albeit ego-blasting (not that that would necessarily be a bad thing), would be to get an honest assessment of her SMV and then only go for guys with a similar rank.

      Well, I’m not a man, but I would describe this young woman as beautiful. 8 on a bad day, 9 on a good day. Her friends, both male and female, refer to her as a 10.

      Women like Grace don’t “go for guys.” Men of her rank are often not particularly interested in locking it down, even with a stellar beauty. Variety is the spice of life, blah blah blah. Therefore, men of her rank often hit on her without any intention of dating her long-term. She is sensible enough to understand this.

  • Kaikou

    @Cuff

    I am not PJ. If Lady Susan wants to check my IP address to see if I am in even in the same timezone/state as Plain Jane whoever than be my guest.

    I don’t comment because everyone wants to argue. I listen first, talk second – if at all.

    When did this handle even make the statement you said?

  • Jayne

    I already made my decision, I dont want to date him and I told him that.

    I said I posted it to show, that some men will go so far and ask you to be their girlfriend and fake a relationship if they think that is what it takes.

    I thought it would be good to post for girls reading this website and to possibly see what the men would say. So a woman who might be in this situation but is confused could have a clearer picture.

  • Kaikou

    @Cuff

    I had a day off from work, sue me. Haha 🙂

    “+ thinly veiled manhate”

    Not true. Proof?

    ” + horrible acting with self-referential terms nobody would ever say about themselves”

    I don’t know what this means. Is this because of the pop culture references?

  • Jayne

    Especially if that woman actually wants to be the mans girlfriend.

  • Kaikou

    @Cuff

    Lol why do I need to introduce myself (insert sap story about a guy here)? Where are the blog rules? I’d gladly adhere.

    Did you miss where I was called thunder thighs? I rolled with it. It’s the internet after all.

    Me and Plain Jane probably have the same Myers Briggs…I don’t know.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “I said I posted it to show, that some men will go so far and ask you to be their girlfriend and fake a relationship if they think that is what it takes”

    Some guys actually will. Especially since girls are willing to take a lot of crap from their supposed “boyfriends” and the relationship doesn’t actually involve much investment of energy, money, or time.

  • Kaikou

    Okay so I googled Plain Jane on this blog. Not going to lie I can see the resemblance. The question asking and the non-confrontational but direct language. Also She has a history with @Cuff since at least early 2011. Seems like it didn’t start off when from the start.

    @Susan

    I don’t know how to prove I am not Plain Jane. I am defintely NOT Think Like a Man. That’s why I shot you an email.

    • @Kaikou

      I don’t know how to prove I am not Plain Jane. I am defintely NOT Think Like a Man. That’s why I shot you an email.

      Sorry if you got caught in the Plain Jane net. She’s been trolling here for three years! She usually finds an unsuspecting new commenter and then derails the whole thread. Carry on.

  • Mireille

    @Susan,
    I think the difference is that we understand the distinction between being feminine and being a feminist and that they are not mutually exclusive like some people around here like to think. It is the subtle art of negotiating relationships all day long and it is admitted that the very american “business” attitude has no place there. Take the Femme Fatale symbol, a strong woman who knows how to play weak when needed or not. Manipulation or intelligence? I think French women know that sexual power is a tool that can be used just like intellectual smarts. Using ones Emotional Quotient as well as your IQ. Here in the US, women who do so are looked down on. I also think that people are still very free in their understanding of relationship, the “quid pro quo” attitude, very transactional nature of relationships makes it look like people are negotiating a contract rather than romancing each other. There is no pleasure in that.

  • MarkyMark

    I have my reservations about asking out a woman at work. That said, I will do it-ONCE! If a gal doesn’t ENTHUSIASTICALLY & UNEQUIVOCALLY SAY YES on the spot, then I won’t ask her out again. To do so might make her feel ‘uncomfortable’, and that means sexual harassment. Since a guy has no rights whatsoever in a SH situation, it’s best to avoid going there. Ergo, I’ll ask a gal out once, or I’ll drop a strong hint of interest. If there is no enthusiastic yes on the spot, then that’s it. As a man, I can’t afford to take more of a chance and have my life ruined.

    • @MarkyMark

      I agree with you about work. It can be a real trap for guys. I’m kind of surprised Brady was so nonchalant about this. Honestly, Grace could have reported him for sending late night texts, and that would probably have been considered harrassment by the company. (I don’t believe this ever even occurred to her, I’m just saying.)

      I read an article that suggested that if two people at work are super attracted to one another, they should spend three months being strictly platonic, and if they are sure they want to move forward, they can do so. Of course, the worst idea in the world is hooking up at the holiday party :-/

  • @Susan

    Ok. She’s clearly attractive, quibbling about a point+/- aside, which brings up a couple points:

    1) his game was either terrible, or he was purposely using the most time-effective game because of a judgment call he made about her (could be good or bad: is she religious?).

    2) As for guys being “not interested in locking it down”, Heartiste has a timely post:
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/quality-vs-quantity-formula-version/
    If she’s that good looking, regardless of his long-term intentions she’s worth putting in the time for 3-5 dates to lock in sex. As such, something about this situation doesn’t add up. Given that they both have a SMV of 8+, then the logical reason for his low-energy tactics is that he doesn’t think getting her is worthwhile and/or likely.

    Or his game just sucks.

    • @theMac

      I agree that he probably just isn’t that into her. For whatever reason. I don’t think his game is terrible – if anything the guy has a bit of an asshole vibe. He’s cocky. She has also concluded he’s just not that interested, which is why she told him outright that his low energy efforts are getting him nowhere, so he should just stop. She said, “He thinks he can break me. That’s what he’s doing. It won’t work.”

  • modernguy

    The question that still hasn’t been answered is what is this girl looking for? What does an “LTR” mean these days besides the chance to spend time with a person for a while, screw, and then move on? Besides the simplicity and convenience of it, why would any guy value it over the independence, freedom and variety of casual sex? We all understand that Grace wants an LTR, but does she understand why a high SMV man would want it? Besides convenience? I mean what does she really bring to the table that makes her special? Can we get a straight answer on that?

    • @modernguy

      Besides the simplicity and convenience of it, why would any guy value it over the independence, freedom and variety of casual sex?

      I’d like the guys to weigh in on this. Do you agree with modernguy that the benefit of an LTR is convenience and simplicity? Put another way, what would you advise an attractive young woman to do? If she has few benefits to offer a man of her own SMV, what is her best strategy?

  • Emily

    >> “Me and Plain Jane probably have the same Myers Briggs…I don’t know.”

    This made me giggle. I think that Kaikou is too funny to be Plain Jane. I also don’t think that Plain Jane ever actually denies being Plain Jane.

    But I do think that PJ is lurking around. Think Like A Man and Jayne both set off alarm bells.

  • JQ

    @Susan:

    Having read the post and all the additional information you’ve provided, perhaps it is time to try breaking this into two not quite orthogonal questions.
    1) Intentions: No need to go here. Pretty much every permutation has been explored somewhere above
    2) Communications style as it indicates personality: Without trying to explain the full DISC model here, suffice it to say based on the behaviors reported, Grace and Brady are on opposite sides (if not in directly opposite corners) of the model (it’s a two-by-two square, so opposite corners is as far apart as two people can get). In the language of the model, Brady strikes me as probably high I/D–he’s demonstrated spontaneity, extroversion, willingness to take risk, and a desire to interact with people. She’s harder to pin down, but is asking for planned dates which puts her on the opposite side of the spectrum (S/C) in this context and spontaneous is generally not something those types are okay with. I submit:
    a) if he’s trying to show interest, it won’t work if she’s too uncomfortable with how he’s communicating to notice the message, and
    b) “poking him with a stick” as she has doesn’t bode well for his ability to adjust his communications as necessary to get the girl if that what he’s trying to do, and
    c) She effectively tried communicating in his style so he might actually get the message that she’s interested but has reservations.

    • @JQ

      That’s a fascinating take, I think you might be onto something. I’m not familiar with the DISC model, but they may well be having trouble connecting based on their respective Meyers Briggs types. Also, Helen Fisher’s model of compatibility says that Explorers (him) match up best with fellow Explorers. I think it’s pretty clear that Grace is risk averse at this point, so she finds his style a bit alarming.

  • SayWhaat

    Emotional entanglement between opposite sexes is very much what lead to sexual attraction and possibly love. If a woman has no idea how to evoke this response in men, then she is just as bad off as the guy who has no idea how to make women tingle.

    Wanted to highlight this because I think this is a very good point from Hope. We are focused so much on filtering out the players and cads that we don’t consider the real part of Girl Game, which is emotional escalation.

    A discussion/post (FOR GIRLS!!!) on properly emotionally escalating with minimal physical escalation would probably be *extremely* helpful.

    • A discussion/post (FOR GIRLS!!!) on properly emotionally escalating with minimal physical escalation would probably be *extremely* helpful.

      Message received. I’ll have to think on this. Hope has weighed in, but if any other women here have successfully done this, I’d love to hear about it. I don’t have any personal experience with this. :-/

  • Think Like A Man

    “It has nothing to do with morality. Good looking men may be presumed to have more sexual options.”

    Nothing to do with morality but you’re using Brady as an example in a post titled “Filtering for Players and Cads”? Um, ok.

    And don’t forget the comments about hot babes being more selective and less likely to be promiscuous. You are clearly making the case for exceptional looking women being more sexually moral than average looking women, based on what, I still don’t know.

    • @Think Like a Man

      Nothing to do with morality but you’re using Brady as an example in a post titled “Filtering for Players and Cads”? Um, ok.

      That’s just acknowledging that many men primarily employ a short-term mating strategy, and that women would do well to avoid them.

      Women are the gatekeepers of sex. Those gates should be difficult to pass through. Filtering out players and cads is essential self-defense.

      I don’t judge men for wanting casual sex, but I do judge men for using dishonesty to get it. That’s the only moral judgment here.

      And don’t forget the comments about hot babes being more selective and less likely to be promiscuous.

      That’s straight from the evo psychology literature, not a matter of opinion. Just good old economics, really.

  • This made me giggle. I think that Kaikou is too funny to be Plain Jane. I also don’t think that Plain Jane ever actually denies being Plain Jane.

    Actually she has and she has even said that Susan has banned people that are not PJ, but is a lie to discourage Susan from banning her…yet again. I think is a good sign that she is panicking it might mean that her IP trick is short lived and she can only use it a couple of more times.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    I think it’s possible that Grace rejected a good guy. But I also think that given the information she had, she made a good decision.

    Agree completely. If Grace was my sister, I’d tell her she made the right decision.

    Even if the dude isn’t a straight up player or cad, his total confidence and ability to plow through shit tests with ease should raise some red flags. Obviously not his first rodeo. Rachel explained it well.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan
    I have to disagree with the idea that the most attractive girls are the least slutty. I think your reasoning makes logical sense, but we all know there’s nothing logical about today’s SMP.

    I’d agree they don’t “have” to be as slutty as their less attractive peers, but that doesn’t seem to translate to actual behavior. They just have higher standards for who they’re slutty with (local celebrities, top frat guys, athletes, bands, etc.).

    From my experience, there really doesn’t seem to be much correlation with attractiveness and promiscuity. But YMMV.

    • @Jimmy Hendricks

      I have to disagree with the idea that the most attractive girls are the least slutty. I think your reasoning makes logical sense, but we all know there’s nothing logical about today’s SMP.

      That’s why I said, all things being equal….but they rarely are. We know that promiscuity is correlated to several characteristics unrelated to looks, including genetics, e.g. personality traits, dopamine receptors, etc. Also whether a woman’s parents are divorced. Her upbringing, obviously. Her drinking habits. Even whether she is prone to depression or struggles with low self-esteem. All of these predict promiscuity in women. And plenty of good looking women fall into these categories.

      Still, the very good looking woman without any of these characteristics is the most likely to abstain from casual sex. Perhaps they are the female unicorns in today’s SMP.

      In short, I agree. YMMV a great deal.

  • modernguy

    “It may be that in this particular instance he overplayed his hand with a woman very sensitive to cad indicators.”

    Your whole premise is wrong. You paint this picture that makes it seem like there are predatory men lurking in dark corners trying to deceive innocent little princesses into their beds of sin. Actually what’s happening is that men with the means and ability to take advantage of what women are offering are simply taking what is freely given to them. These women are fooling themselves and you’re passing the responsibility off onto the “players”. If you’re a woman looking for something specific there’s a simple solution: make it clear. All ‘cads’ and ‘players’ are doing is taking what is given to them. If a woman is resolute on finding a long term mate and not putting out until it happens, filtering out the players is the first and easiest step. They filter themselves out because investing so much time and effort into one girl when there are so many others who will make it so much easier is not worth it. This girl isn’t doing anything heroic or sophisticated. At best she pushed away an aspiring player with clumsy game.

    You all seem to be missing the fact that the situation is utterly in her hands. She has the power to decide when to put out and that is the biggest factor determining what kinds of men she’s going to attract. This ‘strategy’ is nonsense.

    • @modernguy

      If you’re a woman looking for something specific there’s a simple solution: make it clear…You all seem to be missing the fact that the situation is utterly in her hands. She has the power to decide when to put out and that is the biggest factor determining what kinds of men she’s going to attract. This ‘strategy’ is nonsense.

      Huh? The ‘strategy’ involves the woman making it clear. The situation is indeed in her hands. She decided not to put out. Hasn’t done so in six months of knowing this guy.

      The notion that cads won’t approach and be attentive to women who don’t immediately put out is a dangerous one. Yes, they’re unlikely to stick around if they don’t get sex quickly, but a cad with several women in rotation may enjoy texting a girl over a period of months just to wear her down.

      Men here are quick to say that guys don’t go for girls who are hard to get, but I’ve had players tell me directly that they love nothing more than a huge challenge. I heard one group of frat guys talking about the coldest, meanest, most anorexic bitch on campus, and they were in agreement that they would not only tap it, but date her if they got the chance! It was as if they were describing breaking a difficult filly.

  • Think Like A Man

    If Brady were a player he would’ve had her tingling within a week. Failing that, he would have given up on her by the end of the 2nd week tops. The man spent 3 months texting her, flirting with her, homeboy even politely asked her permission for a kiss!

    Not. A. Player.

    If Grace uses the same strategy with other men for too long, she will find herself alone at 30.

  • modernguy

    “If Brady were a player he would’ve had her tingling within a week. Failing that, he would have given up on her by the end of the 2nd week tops. The man spent 3 months texting her, flirting with her, homeboy even politely asked her permission for a kiss!

    Not. A. Player.”

    Exactly, which is why it’s so hilarious to see comments like “he overplayed his hand with a woman very sensitive to cad indicators.” As if she skillfully avoided some danger. She doesn’t have a clue about how good players operate. Going by her ingenious strategy all a “cad” would have to do to bang her would be to take her out a few times during the day. That would jam her cad radar long enough to jam it into her and go on your merry way.

    The bottom line is that she wants to have sex like a slut would – immediately – but she doesn’t want to be dumped after. She is playing the exact same game every other girl is playing except that she’s looking for a magic crystal ball to tell her who’s going to dump her afterward. Sorry, there is no crystal ball, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

    • @modernguy

      Going by her ingenious strategy all a “cad” would have to do to bang her would be to take her out a few times during the day.

      This is a fair point. The only foolproof solution to this problem is total abstinence.

      The bottom line is that she wants to have sex like a slut would – immediately – but she doesn’t want to be dumped after

      I’m curious how you know about her sexual standards and preferences. This statement is so ludicrous it amounts to trolling.

  • Abbot

    “there really doesn’t seem to be much correlation with attractiveness and promiscuity”

    The only obvious correlation with female promiscuity is an anticipated hopeless future, self pity and an overall negative opinion about themselves. Thus, modern women fall prey to the easy and permanently addictive pleasures reliably awaiting them in the red velvet harem dens secretly tucked away within the SMP.

  • Hope said:

    “What she could have said instead: “I like hanging out with you, but it seems like you aren’t that into me. If you really do like me, please talk to me more, take me out somewhere, and spend more time with me. I don’t want to get hurt, so if you don’t like me that way, it would be best if you told me now.”

    _______________________________

    Bah.

    Hope, you’d have gotten what’s left of my cold, black heart to twitch a little.

    Ladies, do what Hope said here. You won’t filter out the sociopaths (I doubt anything does), but you’ll give the Red-Pill guys like me reason to take a second/third/fourth look.

    This also is a little jiu-jitsu – you’re seeming to surrender some hand in the relationship. What will happen, though, is the guy will realize he’s “got the power”, and might just tone down his Game a bit. This will allow you to see him more clearly.

    I hear them out front, coming to repossess my Man Card. Sorry, gents.

    • @Dogsquat

      This also is a little jiu-jitsu – you’re seeming to surrender some hand in the relationship. What will happen, though, is the guy will realize he’s “got the power”, and might just tone down his Game a bit. This will allow you to see him more clearly.

      I like this as a strategy.

      Men can’t surrender hand without looking weak, so to answer someone’s earlier question, women are going to have to blink first. I think there’s a post in that.

  • Herb said:

    “Men shouldn’t filter but realize they’re privileged to get the princess who picked them.
    _____________________________

    Hyman Rickover is gonna shove a Geiger counter up your sarcastic ass.

  • Susan said:

    “He was the demanding and flakey one, not her. Her final ultimatum to him was not a shit test, by the way. A shit test is a test that the woman wants the man to fail – in order to show her that he isn’t pussy whipped. I can assure you that this guy’s “failing” the test by continuing to contact her without asking her out is going to get him nowhere. He passes the test only by leaving her alone completely or stepping up. She’s clearly prepared for either eventuality.”

    ________________________________

    I agree that this wasn’t a shit test. It was a hoop she wants him to jump through, and I don’t think he even perceives it. The guy’s either a terrible/novice player (doubt it for many reasons), all his friends are players, or the only dating advice he gets is from reading The Spearhead. The poor bastard doesn’t know what he’s got right in front of him – probably because he’s never been in this situation before. He lacks knowledge.

    Any way you slice it, though, he’s probably not what she’s looking for.

    When I was dating, I’d have jumped at Grace’s hoop. I’d have spent the next few dates qualifying her to within an inch of her life, but I’d have hopped right through like some giant, weird looking bunnyrabbit.

    I’m not saying hoops are bad, either – they’re invaluable and I use them myself.

    Susan, if you speak to her again you tell her Bravo Zulu from Dogsquat, and make her read Hope’s advice about softening it up a bit – less “You are inadequate so far” and more “This is what I want” will serve her very, very well. A guy who’s actually looking for a girlfriend will do it.

    • @Dogsquat

      Susan, if you speak to her again you tell her Bravo Zulu from Dogsquat, and make her read Hope’s advice about softening it up a bit – less “You are inadequate so far” and more “This is what I want” will serve her very, very well. A guy who’s actually looking for a girlfriend will do it.

      As I said, I like the idea, but there’s one thing that makes me uneasy. As you have said, and as I say in the post, women are the gatekeepers. Grace is ultimately responsible for judging Brady’s character before she has sex with him, and if she makes a mistake, it’s 100% on her, right?

      Confessing her feelings and saying what she wants (him) is showing her hand. That leaves her very, very vulnerable. If the guy wants a girlfriend, boom, happy ever after. If he is a cad, she’s just given him a roadmap to pump and dump. He can now prey upon her affection, take her on three daytime dates as modernguy suggested, and get it in. Why would he do that? Because it’s like getting to the most challenging level in a game. He will have cleared every obstacle, dodged every threat, and bested all competitors. For a woman with very high SMV, this is a real possibility.

  • pvw

    Susan, this caught my attention:

    I’ve seen a lot of really nasty things being said about Mark Zuckerburg’s wife being ugly. I don’t know why it doesn’t occur to anyone that she is literally the only woman in the world he can trust to love him for himself. They met as students before he ever thought of FB. If he wanted to marry and have a family, she was clearly the best choice.

    My reply:

    Yes, a woman of color who is not the ideal swpl type of beauty? Oh, yes, I’ve seen the nasty comments about her looks and about his choice to be with her.

    • @PVW

      Yes, a woman of color who is not the ideal swpl type of beauty? Oh, yes, I’ve seen the nasty comments about her looks and about his choice to be with her.

      Why does anyone care? I’ve seen men expressing their disgust – they’re personally offended that a man with his wealth wouldn’t be dating some bimbo who’s been on the cover of Playboy.

      Mark Zuckerberg has made it clear for years that he does not prioritize sexual variety. He wants a life with Priscilla Chan, and I’m sure he finds her beautiful.

      I can understand why women might be envious, but I don’t understand why men would be so bitchy about it. It must threaten their world view of sexuality.

  • VD

    When a player makes a play, and he gets blown out, he may continue just for fun, especially if he thinks the woman is secretly attracted. He continues the chase for sport. It’s a game – that’s why he’s called a player.

    Precisely. If it’s no effort, there is no time limit. I’ve known players to take more than five years to nail a highly desirable woman they knew was secretly attracted – during which time they had dozens of other women. Every player knows that all it takes is that one moment of vulnerability, that one moment of self-doubt after a breakup, and if you’re the back of her mind as an attractive go-to option, the flirtatious comment that’s been ignored or laughed off for months, even years, will suddenly result in an invitation back to her place. There was a great line from Friends that summed it up nicely:

    Joey: How are you doing?
    Rachel: I’m okay.
    Joey: Ooh, that bad, huh? Look, I can sense when women are depressed and vulnerable. It’s one of my gifts.

    Meanwhile, this is one more example why a 22 yo girl should not be trying to date a 22 yo boy.

    Precisely. Brady isn’t a player, he’s a cute boy who has no idea how to seduce a woman and little Game. Asking for permission to kiss her? Concerns about work? A real player would have banged her on the CEO’s desk by now. A much better response to her expressed concerns about being co-workers is something like “Sure, but my understanding is that company policy permits bending a co-worker over the conference room table so long as she is sufficiently pretty and doughnuts are provided.” Agree, amplify, and make her laugh at her own concerns. His response was very Delta because a) he took her concerns literally and b) he attempted to reassure.

    Alpha sex appeal comes from chaos, confrontation, and creating emotional disruption, not order and security. Notice how chaotic the lives and occupations of many natural alphas are. It’s not healthy, of course, but it’s sexy.

    • @VD

      A much better response to her expressed concerns about being co-workers is something like “Sure, but my understanding is that company policy permits bending a co-worker over the conference room table so long as she is sufficiently pretty and doughnuts are provided.”

      a;ldkfja;lkdfj;alskdfjdfkasl;

      I daresay Grace would have succumbed. Yikes. This is why it is just terrible luck to wind up in the crosshairs of a real player. They’re magicians.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    I was using flake loosely.
    Rephrased she ‘rejected’ him for hang outs, over and over and over again.
    He needs to be hit in the side of the head and told not to be an idiot.

    I’ll stand by what I said: not a player. Though probably too beta for a good relationship.

    PS Shes home tommorow. Married on the 1st of June.

    • @Lokland

      PS Shes home tommorow. Married on the 1st of June.

      I’m getting excited. Isn’t that silly? I can’t help it, I feel like Mother Goose.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Do you agree with modernguy that the benefit of an LTR is convenience and simplicity? Put another way, what would you advise an attractive young woman to do? If she has few benefits to offer a man of her own SMV, what is her best strategy?”

    Convenience carries a negative connontation so lets replace it with simple and easy. Yes, those are both necessities for a relationship.
    It shouldn’t require extreme amounts of though/emotional processing otherwise its going to become an emotional overload/drain (guys can’t handle emotions as well as women).

    Make it both easy and simple with a lack of mindgames/shit tests (fitness tests are okay). The bitch and entitlement princess ego needs to be dropped.

    Come to think of it. Theres a lot of advice I would give woman but most of it is what not to do. All you have to do is be cute and be nice and make it simple. And that goes for all women.

  • Maggie

    “I’ve seen a lot of really nasty things being said about Mark Zuckerburg’s wife being ugly”

    This really depesses me. I thought she looked like an angel in her wedding picture and from what I’ve read she sounds like a generous, selfless person.

    I think the people saying these nasty things are so miserable and insecure they want everyone to share their unhappiness.

  • Herb

    @Ana

    Heh I saw that episode knowing how South Park treats the “sects” I was worried about how was going to treat us Twihards, we got off easier than expected.

    The goths were perfect with the “don’t care attitude” and the constant cloves. Plus, the use of the universal goth distress signal of “hand, staple, forehead” by the one kid was perfect.

    @Susan

    Grace is not a virgin, nor is she promiscuous. She has certainly never had multiple (or even 2!) simultaneous partners, which is the very definition of promiscuity.

    Really, so a woman who hooks up with a different guy every Friday and every Saturday thus racking up 104 new partners in a year isn’t promiscuous but a woman with two boyfriends, one she sleeps with on Friday and one on Saturday is promiscuous.

    Right…

    Good to know only one is a slut and it’s the one with N=104 not N=2.

    @Ferrett

    But that’s reality. If that’s what the market dictates, that what is dictates. If you want to date young women, you have to put up with the barriers to entry.

    I don’t have to put up with barriers. I can decide a market is too expensive to enter. I didn’t buy Facebook recently either.

    Plus, who said anything about wanting to date young women. With one exeception, the current gf is the youngest, relative to me, that I’ve tried to date. She’s 5 years younger. When you’re 45 that’s 40 and I don’t consider 40 young women.

    @Joe

    But I’ll bet dollars to donuts that the 20 something men here will interpret it as “This is what women think a high-quality woman is,” which is quite a different thing than a filter that they’ll be ready to accept.

    Based on all the dating advice for men I’ve seen from women that’s a reasonable default to read when reading that kind of advice.

    Then again, modern feminist women are trying to be the best men they can be so it makes sense.

    @OTC

    Yes it’s PJ, on multiple handles.

    Damn, the bitch trolled me. And called me Herby.

    She’d best hope I never get access to her computer.

    @J

    That’s a ridiculous first date IMO for a number of reasons:

    That was me and in my defense:

    1. I was separated and the ex (then current wife) had started dating despite our separation agreement. I was out of practice and out for revenge.
    2. I knew the woman. I saw her at least weekly if not more often. This arguably was less “getting to know you” and more “hey, I’m interested”. Apparently just having a guy interested in you earns cash and prizes.

    If you look back at older comments this is the “I’m a feminist and demand equality, but I still expect to be treated like a princess” woman (she made pretty much that exact statement including the word princess during dinner).

    @MarkyMark

    I have my reservations about asking out a woman at work.

    I won’t ask out a co-worker. Full stop. I don’t care if she looks like Francesca Annis in her 30s, plays six insturments, and has made it clear she loves me and wants to marry and have babies. That’s how dangerous sexual harassment law has made it for me to approach co-workers.

    @Dogsquat

    Hyman Rickover is gonna shove a Geiger counter up your sarcastic ass.

    I could survive the AN/S-27, the 45 unless with the pancake probe, and whatever the alpha one was, but please not the 70. That thing is bigger than a #10 can.

    @Lokland

    Convenience carries a negative connontation so lets replace it with simple and easy. Yes, those are both necessities for a relationship.
    It shouldn’t require extreme amounts of though/emotional processing otherwise its going to become an emotional overload/drain (guys can’t handle emotions as well as women).

    Thank you for the consise explanation of why I hate the idea of having to Game a wife.

    If I’m having to put in that much effort see the Francesca Annis standard above.

    • @Herb

      Really, so a woman who hooks up with a different guy every Friday and every Saturday thus racking up 104 new partners in a year isn’t promiscuous but a woman with two boyfriends, one she sleeps with on Friday and one on Saturday is promiscuous.

      Right…

      Good to know only one is a slut and it’s the one with N=104 not N=2.

      NO. I guess I should have been clearer. Promiscuity means not being selective about sexual partners. That’s obviously open to interpretation. For some men, a woman who is not a virgin is a slut, for others double digits is not a problem. In my opinion, Grace is not a slut, but I’m not trying to sell Grace here, so it’s irrelevant.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Very right about players viewing the hottest, hardest to get girls as a worthy challenge. Most guys don’t get very jealous of their friends sleeping with 10, 20, 30 average looking girls. Sorry, let me correct that. Most guys who CAN sleep with 10, 20+ girls are not jealous at all of another guy who does the same. At that level the true prize is the 9 or 10 girl, as there’s much more a challenge involved, and far fewer players can say they’ve got one or more of those under their belts. I have a couple friends who I’m generally very competitive with about picking up and sleeping with girls (side note, we’re going on a grouper because we think our dynamic will be a hilarious disaster). We’re all roughly equally skilled, and all roughly in the same ballpark of women we’ve slept with (20-30). However, not a single one of us ever is impressed by +1 to the N count in and of itself. What we ARE impressed by, and jealous of, is when one of us racks up a truly top-notch girl (8.5+). There are far fewer of them and they’re much harder to get into bed, for many of the reasons you’ve outlined.

    @modernguy, others

    I’ve seen tons, and I mean tons of players/cads spend months or even years going after a girl if she’s hot enough. If Grace is really a 9/10, this is completely believable. I have a very good GF who’s a 9/10, and this experience is honestly more the norm for her than the exception. Sending a text message a couple times a week IS NO EFFORT AT ALL. I agree, asking to kiss her was a weak move, but even the best player isn’t a perfect pickup machine. It’s like a company staying ‘top of mind’ with a target client. All you do is send them marketing materials and invite them to events, and 95% of the time nothing comes with it, but they at least remain aware of you. Then, when that 5% of the time comes when they need your services (for services read sex), you’re ideally positioned to provide them.

    @Susan/others about Zuckerberg’s wife:

    I think the reason people are being so mean is that they view it as a waste. For a ton of guys, if they spent their 20s with billions of dollars running one of the coolest companies in the world, they’d be converting that into strange, hot p*ssy every night of the week. It’s the ultimate demonstration of High Market Value, and so they feel he got handed the keys to the player kingdom and essentially said “no thanks”. That’s why guys are upset about it.

  • deti

    Jayne 311:

    He’s not gaming you. He’s a pensive, hesitant guy who got some sex with you, then it stopped abruptly. He wants to resume the sex, but isn’t sure how to get back with you because you blew him out.

    What I can tell you is that what he wants from you is sex, and not much else. That doesn’t mean he’s a player — far from it. He’s not a player. If he were, he would have sexed you and then blown you out when he was done.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    That’s a fair point. I think Grace is very guarded, having been burned once in a rather dramatic fashion.

    Do you really think it’s kosher for Brady to be inviting her to come over all the time? One thing I wondered – they both are one year out of college, and I’m not sure how big their respective social circles are yet in this city. He may actually not have that much going on, so inviting her over one on one may not be as shady as it seems. Although the late night part continues to disturb me. Why can’t he send that same text at 8 or 9?

    OK, so. Let’s assume Grace reads this thread (No idea if she will, I wrote this up with a pseudonym without even consulting her.) What would you advise her to do? I know Brady was texting as recently as this past weekend.

    I completely agree that Grace is right in not going to meet up with him late in the evening, past 11 or so. No arguement there. My point is that a lot of the actions of this guy are not congruent with a true player. Any guy who has Game, even if moving to a brand new city, should be able to have a number of girls in line after a few months, and thus he would not put so much effort into one girl, especially a coworker. Hell, I moved to the east coast around 9 months ago, knowing no one, and within a month I had two girls lined up. Honestly, if Grace would have delicately put herself out there by asking him to something innocent, like I suggested, this all would be a moot point. He either agrees (+), he can’t make it but reschedules (+) or he makes excuses, never reschedules, and continues to send out late night messages (-).

    Also, players don’t consistenly (over months) make idle chit chat like ‘how is your day going?’, ‘hope you are having a good weekend’, etc. because they don’t actually care about the answer.

    Finally, I’ve known and know a number of completely innocent, beta-as-all-hell guys who are totally into a chick, who send out those 11pm messages, not looking for a booty call at all. They just want the girl to come out, have a good time, meet his friends in a situation where he is comfortable and get to know him more. Thats just the way some people operate because of conditioning.

    Now, I could be completely wrong here, no doubt, but I’m just giving my two cents based on the side of the story that we have.

  • deti

    “Do you agree with modernguy that the benefit of an LTR is convenience and simplicity? Put another way, what would you advise an attractive young woman to do? If she has few benefits to offer a man of her own SMV, what is her best strategy?”

    Lokland has the right idea here. But an LTR is convenient because the man has (at least in theory) a ready, willing and able sex partner. It is also supposed to be simple, because he (at least in theory) doesn’t have to game her constantly.

    An attractive young woman’s best bet is to make it as easy for him as she can without putting out sexually. She should be returning his increasing commitment with increasing sexual involvement.

    And I don’t think that an attractive young woman has only “few benefits” to offer a man of similar SMV. If she’s a 9, she has a lot to offer a 9-10 man, particularly if she has a low partner count and isn’t a slut. She’s a quality woman. That is a lot to offer right there. By increasing her sexual involvement concomitantly with his displays of commitment, she demonstrates her quality.

  • Lokland,

    I think you gave a good summary of this Brady guy’s beta game, which I pretty much agree with. Like you said, not enough info to get the full picture, but I got the same impression that this could be a good guy who feels like he was getting snubbed.

    Susan,

    I forgot to add something, which I stated before. A real player would NEVER EVER get all hurt and fire off a whiny text exchange like this guy did. To me, it clearly shows that he was emotionally invested and felt like he was getting no where with her with all his effort.

    The last time I fired off a ‘Why don’t you like MEEEEEE??!!’ kind of text I was in high school, and it hasn’t happened since.

  • Chuck Berry

    “Thank you for the consise explanation of why I hate the idea of having to Game a wife.

    If I’m having to put in that much effort see the Francesca Annis standard above.”

    I hate this idea as well, but it is not as bad as it seems. Eventually effort becomes routine and you are no longer emulating who you want to be, you just are who you want to be*.

    *Who you want to be should, can and will change.

    After reviewing these comments I think I agree that there is one way to guarantee you do not lose . . . do not to play (abstinence). That is about as fun as watching a bullet exit your forehead though.

    If you want to play and you want to minimize losses, you need to employ good old fashioned police work, a fair grasp on how the male mind works, watch actions not words, be impartial and realize that their isn’t really many shortcuts.

    When you figure out how to do all of that, explain it to the rest of us.

    Chuck

  • Zach,

    How would you explain the guys whiny confrontation if all he was looking for was a hookup? This is the single biggest tell for me. It’s a last ditch effort for beta guys, who in all honesty know it won’t work, but have nothing left and are emtionally spent from their effort. I tend to agree that there are some real sociopaths out there who would go after a girl for years if need be (my contention is that most players wouldn’t do this though), but they would never in a million years send out a confrontational message looking to ‘take the relationship to the next level and have her put in more effort’.

  • Marie

    Zach, regarding Zuckerberg, I think there are several reasons why he made a good move.
    First – the obvious – she loves him for who he is and has been by his side all the time.
    Secondly – the risk of Zuckerberg ending up with a golddigger is higher than for other rich men. I know there is a whole lot of men out there who refuses to believe that a woman can love a rich man for other reasons than his money, but I’m not going to go in on that discussion. Point is, there are plenty of wealthy men whom have acquired other great skills when becoming entrepreneurs – they’re confident, ambitious, charismatic, have great social skills. They have that adventurous side and a ‘drive’ that has caused them to end up where they are. There are plenty of reasons to love men like that. I don’t know if other men don’t see it or maybe they do, but pretend it isn’t the case. Either way, it’s popular to claim that the cash he possesses is the only source of a man’s success with women. Golddiggers don’t go for the richest ones, they go for the most generous. A man with a reasonably good income who spends 90% of it on his woman is far more popular than a cheap millionaire (which there are plenty of).
    Zuckerberg is a nerd. He has no charisma, poor social skills, no sex appeal, he doesn’t have a masculine or handsome appearance. He is a public person whether he wants to or not, all we know about him, is a) he’s a nerd, b) he’s filthy rich. In his profession, being a nerd is a good thing. People rely on the nerds with no social life to do a good job, in fact the worse with women, the better with computers. If he ran off with a Victoria’s Secret-looking lady, it wouldn’t benefit his image. A few guys might pat him on the back, but who cares about that past the age of 18 anyway. The girl would be victim of judgment (golddigger), his role would have changed completely.
    He made the best choice. For himself and for his image.

  • Tom

    1. Thou shalt cultivate a feminine demeanor and bearing. Thou shalt not try to be, look like, or act like a man. Thou shalt observe and obey this Commandment above all others.
    2. Thou shalt not use profanity or other coarse language in public.
    3. Thou shalt let the man decide where you will go and what you will do on the first few dates.
    4. Thou shalt not denigrate thy man in public. Ever.
    5. Thou shalt not denigrate or otherwise break bad on thy man to his parents, thy parents, thy coworkers or thy BFFs. Ever.
    6. Thou shalt do some things your man likes to do, such as make his favorite foods, do your hair the way he likes, or wear some clothes he likes.
    7. Thou shalt not let thyself go. Thou shalt give reasonable care and attention to cultivate a pleasing personal appearance.
    8. Thou shalt not try to lead or overrule thy man.
    9. Thou shalt let thy man reciprocate thy kindness.
    10. Thou shalt not act like a princess.
    __________
    You forgot the barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen part….lol

  • Tom

    @ Modernguy
    There is a simple test:

    First, are you a virgin? If you aren’t, you can essentially be disqualified from marriage. There is simply no reason for a man to marry unless he’s marrying a virgin. It’s an exchange of total commitment for total fidelity. There are plenty of men who marry non-virgins of course, but they are basically making a mistake. They aren’t getting anything in exchange.

    __________________
    Seriously???? dude you MUST be from the 1920`s because you are anything but modern.

  • Zach

    @Jason

    You’re right, that doesn’t jive with the rest of his behavior. Also, the “can I kiss you” is a big beta move, but as I said even the best player slips up here and there. He does sound as if he came off pretty cocky. For me, the deluge of 11 PM texts is just a huge tell. I’ve sent a lot of 11 PM texts myself, and not once has it been anything more than a booty call/FWB. If he’s a beta and he thinks that’s his best way to find his special girl, he’s honestly the MOST clueless guy with women I’ve ever heard of, and judging from the rest of the evidence he doesn’t seem to be. That’s why I can’t help but put him in the cad category.

    @Marie

    Wasn’t criticizing his decision, was just explaining why it’s been so controversial. Re: gold digger, he has enough money to sleep with 1,000 gold diggers and not even notice it. It’s only marriage that puts him in the scenario where he stands to lose anything meaningful.

  • Tom

    Lisa
    By the way, I get the impression that many men here may not know what characteristics and traits a quality woman possesses. I really hope I am wrong.

    __________
    Nope not wrong, most are clueless.

  • Zach

    @Tom

    Amen to all that, especially no 1 and no 7.

  • pvw

    Re. Zuckerberg and Chang, I think it is interesting that their example poses some important distinctions between SMV and MMV as well as those between the SMP and the MMP.

    Each of their own, in terms of looks and charisma, for many, don’t have a high SMV. As someone mentioned earlier, for guys interested in game and becoming supremely alpha, his moves upon getting wealthy all spell loserville–he didn’t try to rack up the greatest number of hotties, but stayed with one woman all this time, plus she isn’t seen as attractive by many, as I mentioned, from the perspective of “swpl” type women.

    It seems to me that they were playing for the MMV sweepstakes, and they hit the jackpot. Isn’t that something someone suggested, that lower SMV people might trade on commitment and chastity in the MMV as they might not easily succeed in the SMP?

    But each of them on their own and together, have a very high MMV: dedicated to each other, they have been together throughout their 20s. He is a provider type–super wealthy. She appears to be a nurturing type–she spent a year or two as a schoolteacher before going to medical school and training to become a medical doctor specializing in pediatrics (children’s medicine).

    That is the type of thing I like to see, success in the MMP; the SMP, not as important to me.

    • @pvw

      That is the type of thing I like to see, success in the MMP; the SMP, not as important to me.

      Hear, hear! A good marriage can provide infinitely more happiness than any dating or casual arrangement can, provided both parties are capable of giving and receiving happiness and love. A bad marriage can obviously make someone considerably more miserable. Higher stakes mean higher risk.

      By all metrics, Mark Zuckerberg made a very good marriage, as his relationship has stood the test of time and motive. The risk of divorce is very low, IMO.

  • pvw

    typo:

    in the MMV as they might not easily succeed in the SMP?

    should read: in the MMP as they might not easily succeed in the SMP?

  • Tom

    Herb
    I don’t want words in any case. I want evidence.

    I don’t care about money and I can see your looks.

    When did you offer to pay for a date? That’s less about money than it is respect that I work just as hard as you for money and that in a relationship the flow of energy isn’t one way, even energy expended elsewhere.

    Were you willing to pick up my suit when we had a formal date and I was running late at work? Are you ready when I’m supposed to pick you up or are you the classic half-hour late women in getting ready? When I was so sick I stayed home from work (five or six times this century) did you stop to check on me and when you noticed I had gotten sick and wasn’t able to clean it all up did you take care of it? Did you bring your parking pass even though I drove to save us time and me some money? Did you take the time to wait online to get the Dead Can Dance tickets at 6am so I could sleep in after I did the same for Lorenna McKinnett?
    _______________
    This has to be one of the best posts I`ve ever read here at HUS. This is what is meant by a” quality woman.” Nowhere does it mention she may have had a few men in her past that disqualifies her as quality.
    Now if someone needs to add that to their requirements, good for them.

  • Ted D

    Hope – “So basically, it’s a win-win for the couple to fall in love, confess they love each other, and have emotionally/psychologically stimulating sexy conversations before the actual act of sex.
    My husband and I both fondly remember that initial period of our romance. It’s not just me. “

    My current SO and I spent weeks communicating my text messages prior to actually going out, and we both believe that it was that intense period of “talking” to each other that sped us along so quicly once we did actually start to date. By the time we “went out”, we were already well on our way to konwing each other and falling in love. It took my usual several month “getting to know you” period down to a few weeks. It also helped that we had known each other for a couple months throught mutual friends, so even before we started talking “serious” we had already had some friendly conversation going. Plus, we both agreed that there was some real “at first site” sparks, but we both did our best to ignore them at the time as my separation situation was still in the air at the time.

    So for me anyway, I think your idea would (and did!) work fine. I very much enjoyed the electronic communications with my SO early on, and at least for us it built a TON of tension and anticipation.

    “From a male perspective, Ted D also had lots of back-and-forth texting with his girl prior to relationship, commitment and sex. So, if it is a personality difference, then it’s a difference between people who don’t do casual vs. people who have no problems doing casual.”

    I have wondered this many times over. It isn’t that texting changed how I usually operate, but it made the entire process MUCH faster because we didn’t have to get all this out in face to face conversations. In fact, early on most of our “face time” was actually very light and fun. We used texts to discuss all the more serious stuff for the first few weeks. Once I realized where my head (and heart) was, I brought it up to her in person and we moved into commitment and further deep discussion.

    I suppose if I wasn’t after the “real deal” from the start, all the texting may not have helped at all. But we were all the way to just before the “I love you” stage before we started getting physical, and I stopped just short of the main event until *I* was sure we would be in the “I love you” stage after the deed was done. In some ways, I screened her as hard as I expect every woman *should* do to any man she is considering. She was the one pushing for physical escalation. I was the one putting on the breaks (ever so slightly) until I was sure she was going to commit.
    Good Lord I feel like such a woman sometimes. But all of this went down prior to my discovery of the ‘sphere. I’m not upset by that fact, but I can assure you if I ever find myself single again, the process will be entirely different…

    Sassy – “I hate myself for it, but the attraction just kept waning the more and more beta he was acting. I started feeling like he was better off as a friend instead of a lover.”

    Ya know, I really think it is great that you at least recognize this early and end things. I respect you a great deal just for knowing yourself this well, let alone actually acting on your knowledge in a decent way. You have high standards, but there is NOTHING wrong with that. And, despite having those standards you give guys a shot and let them know quickly if it isn’t going well. If everyone was half as honest as you, we wouldn’t be in this SMV war.

  • J

    @Lokland

    Your description of the intial first few dates matches what I see as best for both boy and girl. Low investment on both their parts.

    Thanks.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Back in the day, when I had some minor responsibility to the Dean of Students’ office, the guys we had to watch in case they went clinical or even postal were the ones who were dumped from an emotional connection.
    Some of them were in pretty tough shape for some time.
    Getting laid or not, this Friday or this year, wasn’t nearly as bad, didn’t have the intense impact.
    Watching my kids’ friends, and even some of my wife’s students recently, it seems still to be true, sexual marketplace manuvering notwithstanding, that some folks have or would wish they had a deep emotional connection with another person, or a particular person.
    IMO, not considering the possibility in a given situation might end up misreading the possibilities.

  • Zuckerberg got married? Wow. I had been playing too much video games and not paying attention. If his wife is ugly (as seen in her wedding photos), then I must be hideous.

    It sounds like some guys don’t understand nerdy guys in general. Those guys are not thinking about girls or new vaginas all day long. Their minds are always preoccupied by intellectual pursuits, their obsessions of the moment, and other systematizing stuff. I do this, too, but I have less ambition.

    For example, I knew a guy who thought of start-up ideas all the time and was always working on a new project. He could dedicate that time to picking up girls, but instead he has a steady girlfriend and spends his time trying to make stuff. It’s not that they can’t get new girls, but rather their motivation/dopamine reward systems aren’t wired to get the same high from it.

    • @Hope

      Those guys are not thinking about girls or new vaginas all day long. Their minds are always preoccupied by intellectual pursuits, their obsessions of the moment, and other systematizing stuff.

      I think there’s a continuum with productivity on one end and hedonism on the other. If you’re strictly about being productive, with no time for pleasure and relaxation, you’re not going to be very appealing company. On the other hand, if you’re a hedonist and spend all your time pursuing sensual pleasure, then you’re a parasite on society (and an embarrassment to your mother).

      I prefer spending time with productive members of society, myself.

  • J

    Yes, a woman of color who is not the ideal swpl type of beauty? Oh, yes, I’ve seen the nasty comments about her looks and about his choice to be with her.

    The guys at Roissy used to love to dump on Priscilla Chan, which always amazed me as many of them love to fetishize Asian women and proote them over American women. My vibe was that they disliked her career orientation (doctor) and her lack of submissiveness. She also used to be a bit on the chunky side which is a cardinal sin.

    Aditionally, there was a tendency to describe Zuck as beta for sticking with one woman when he could have a had a dozen supermodels.

  • Herb

    @deti

    And I don’t think that an attractive young woman has only “few benefits” to offer a man of similar SMV. If she’s a 9, she has a lot to offer a 9-10 man, particularly if she has a low partner count and isn’t a slut. She’s a quality woman. That is a lot to offer right there. By increasing her sexual involvement concomitantly with his displays of commitment, she demonstrates her quality.

    This is where you and I part ways (so much for the brothers thing). That low partner count person whose SMV matches mine is only showing she can provide sex and not too sloppy sex at that with the potential to emotionally bond. That demonstrates character and potential. It doesn’t demonstrate value to me specifically.

    Women complain men expect that checking off something like the 10 vegetables list a post a go that we should just get sex from women looking for a “good guy”. They complain men don’t know they need to provide more specific to that woman and that a given woman might just not want them.

    Yet, the low level, “hey, my N is low so I’m quality” (note one vegetable, not 10, not even 8 like V8) is the female counterpart. Being pleasant, willing to cook, will stand by me when things are tough, and other qualities make her a quality woman.

    Low N is just a good start.

  • Ted D, thanks for the backup! It’s not just a female thing to screen for love. I’ve known lots of guys who are very romantic and search for true love.

    SayWhaat, I think it’s an essential “girl game” skill. A woman who knows how to connect with men on an emotional level is far better off than a woman who just knows how to open her legs.

    But it’s like the male version of game, too. It’s a skill that can be used for good or bad. Lots of men have been heartbroken by falling for such women.

  • Doc

    The only thing this story does, is show she isn’t interested in the poor sap. She obviously isn’t invested. If she’s hot for you, you’ll see it fairly quickly. Regardless of how she may want to proceed, all of that goes out the window if she is really interested. Of course, she won’t tell you about the one-night stands when she was hot for the guy since she’ll say that “I’m not like that”.

    Women always leave those details out since they don’t want to look like a sl*t to other women. Men already know that if she’s interested, she’ll be in your bed.

    • @Doc

      She obviously isn’t invested. If she’s hot for you, you’ll see it fairly quickly. Regardless of how she may want to proceed, all of that goes out the window if she is really interested.

      False. Grace was extremely attracted to Brady from the moment she met him last August. She was thrilled when he announced he’d broken up with his gf and wanted to hang out. She interpreted his reassurance that he had no intention of “being a dick” as solid enough that she would kiss him – a coworker. The night she had wine at his apartment, she left to stop herself from jumping his bones and dragging him to the bedroom. His red flag behavior has been a considerable disappointment, though after all this time she’s basically over it. That’s why she could issue an ultimatum – she is pretty much indifferent to the outcome.

      There is only one way a beautiful young woman gets into her 20s with a very low N. By demonstrating the ability to process information and predict consequences through the use of the cerebral frontal cortex.

      Your expectations are bound to be self-fulfilling, so I’m not particularly surprised that you’ve never encountered (or even sought?) such a woman.

  • Herb

    @Tom

    You forgot the barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen part….lol

    Women want the male leader/provider then they should expect he’ll want he to provide yin to his yang. For what so many claim is women’s natural desire that they’re entitled to get, that’s going to be the price list.

    This has to be one of the best posts I`ve ever read here at HUS. This is what is meant by a” quality woman.” Nowhere does it mention she may have had a few men in her past that disqualifies her as quality.

    Two notes on the list (which is mine):

    1. I know very few single women over 30 who define quality in any way resembling my list. Challenging or words to the equivalent (which is not what the things I listed imply at all) is the most common thing they use. Able to make a good income is also common.

    2. While I didn’t list some arbitrary N, it does play into my calculus. I’m less concerned about the number per se than how they got there and how their sexual activity was in the recent past (what’s the trend line). Plus, are their explanations excuses/rationalization or reasonable. Two women with the same N who claim, “well, I’m poly” can still get different reactions from me depending on how that expresses for example.

  • Esau

    Liza at 10: “Every man’s dream, especially when its time for a wife…”

    However, a non players/decent guy’s nightmare because most don’t/won’t have the nads to approach her for a relationship.

    An historically useful rule to remember here, is “Don’t attribute to malice or cowardice what is more naturally and readily explained as simple avoidance of a bad bet for cost/benefit.”

    Men are supposed to be hunters. Women don’t hunt.

    A big part of intelligent hunting is knowing when not to waste time and energy on bad, low-likely-return opportunities.

    Wants to know at 127: “I had trouble figuring out why I wasn’t being asked out and wanted to figure out why (a bit to shy, too serious, and wicked sense of humor.) I’ve had my eyes opened and seems like I have a lot to learn.”

    Without knowing anything about you, I can provide a useful (and free!) framework for the answer to your question; really, it’s almost tautological: if no one’s approaching you, then it must be that you aren’t presenting what looks like a reasonable opportunity for a good experience; ie you look like a bad bet that no one finds it worth their time to take up. As to why this might be the case for you in particular, I of course have no idea, that’s what you’ll have to think about.

    I’m sorry if you find that phrasing a bit harsh, but it’s really the most direct way to grasp the important truth. If you want others to take the initiative based on what they observe about you, then you need to ask yourself: how do I appear to others? If someone looks at you, what evidence do they see that they have a good chance to have a good experience with you, that will make it worth their time & energy to approach you?
    On the other hand, if you want to console yourself with the (logically empty) sentiment, “Men are just too intimidated by my beauty and intelligence!”, then it’s never too early to start stocking up on cat food (perhaps Liza knows where to find the best sales).

  • J

    Hi Herb,

    I was separated and the ex (then current wife) had started dating despite our separation agreement. I was out of practice and out for revenge.

    I’m gonna give you the same advice that I’m giving my friend whose husband just moved in with another woman during their separation (because I’m just that sort of gender equity kind of gal 😉 ) Whenever possible your position towards a soon-to-be ex-spouse should be that their actions are by and large irrelevant to you. Easier said than done, I know, but reacting to them gives them more power over your life than they should have. It’s also not fair to the next person to be reacting to the ex and not to them.

    I knew the woman. I saw her at least weekly if not more often. This arguably was less “getting to know you” and more “hey, I’m interested”. Apparently just having a guy interested in you earns cash and prizes.

    Understandable, but still too much. “Having a guy interested in you” should earn ” having a guy interested in you,” not cash and prizes. If a woman like you, your interest is its own reward.

    (she made pretty much that exact statement including the word princess during dinner).

    Princess? Really? Then you should run for the hills. Srsly!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ted D

    Ya know, I really think it is great that you at least recognize this early and end things. I respect you a great deal just for knowing yourself this well, let alone actually acting on your knowledge in a decent way. You have high standards, but there is NOTHING wrong with that. And, despite having those standards you give guys a shot and let them know quickly if it isn’t going well. If everyone was half as honest as you, we wouldn’t be in this SMV war.

    Thanks Ted. I figured it was better to not waste either of our time.

    Also, if any of the guys are interested, I could give a quick list of the things he did that set off the “beta radar”, and that dampened my attraction. It may be better to know what not to do, straight from the horses mouth, if you don’t want to appear super beta.

  • J

    @Hope

    If his wife is ugly (as seen in her wedding photos), then I must be hideous.

    You’re prettier than she is in most of the pix I’ve seen of her, although she did look terrific on her wedding day.

  • Tom

    @ Susan
    In my experience, very good looking women are used to being evaluated for their looks alone. Most men couldn’t care less about getting to know them as human beings with the full range of emotions and experiences.
    ___________
    I get the feeling a lot of men here are like this. Many men here see women as cooks, maids, mommies and sex objects.
    By the way you are spot on about Brady. If he was interested in “really” getting to know her he would have simply mentioned a time and place that is more than an hour in advance.

  • Escoffier

    Sassy, let’s hear it.

  • Tom

    Herb
    . While I didn’t list some arbitrary N, it does play into my calculus. I’m less concerned about the number per se than how they got there and how their sexual activity was in the recent past (what’s the trend line). Plus, are their explanations excuses/rationalization or reasonable. Two women with the same N who claim, “well, I’m poly” can still get different reactions from me depending on how that expresses for example.
    _______
    We think somewhat alike. I have my limits on “N” also. How that number was achieved is important. Two women might have 10 partners. One got it over a ten year period and one got 9 of them in one night.. One gets a chance if everything else is good, the other does not.

  • modernguy

    @Tom

    Actually I’m being very modern there. There simply isn’t any good reason to marry these days unless you’re getting a virgin. Getting married means you’re trading in all your possible future options and opportunities for that one woman. Certainly she didn’t wait for you, so in that sense she doesn’t deserve a good will move on your part. Considering men get nothing out of marriage that they can’t get otherwise these days, getting married only means that you are doing her a favor. So you have to ask yourself if it’s worth it. Is it worth putting your future financial and emotional well being in her hands?

  • Escoffier

    “Considering men get nothing out of marriage that they can’t get otherwise these days”

    I don’t believe this. To say nothing of other considerations, it seems to me that the higher quality the woman, the more she will hold out for marriage rather than an LTR. Certainly, in the upper middle class, women will insist on marriage over an LTR. I don’t know what co-habitation rates actually are but anecdotally they seem very low. At most it’s tolerated for a couple that is clearly headed for marriage. It’s hard for me to imagine a UMC girl who would live with a guy long term with no prospect of marriage in sight.

  • Ted D

    Sassy – “Also, if any of the guys are interested, I could give a quick list of the things he did that set off the “beta radar”, and that dampened my attraction. ”

    I’m interested. To be honest, more and more each day I find myself wanting to learn “anti-game”. As it has been described to me, it is simply learning what NOT to do to kill attraction. To me, if a guy has a GF/Wife already, he probably has at least the minimum required “game” to snag her, so if he can simply not act in ways that work against her attraction, he can probably manage to keep things good with a few minor tweaks here and there. That is my goal, because I have no desire to spend the rest of my life “gaming” hard core to keep a woman around. Seriously, I’m all about putting in my time and effort, but I am not a person that in any way enjoys mind games or emotional manipulation.

  • Deli

    //I get the feeling a lot of men here are like this. Many men here see women as cooks, maids, mommies and sex objects.
    I think you are really very wrong on the last account (“sex object”)
    I mean, if she’s acting like an object in bed – she’s a very poor lay. There is a joke in my country about the secret tribes of were-dendroids – girls, who under the light of the moon, become cold unmoving logs.

    As for the rest, well you mention crafty (“cooks”), hardworking (“maids”) and caring (“mommies”)

    I think it’s very decent list. Much better compared to what women usually write about themselves in their dating profiles, e.g.
    sarcastic (“bitch”)
    challenging (“bitch”)
    career-driven (“workaholic-bitch”)
    spiritual (“vegan-bitch”)
    intellectual (“Eat-Pray-Bitch”)

  • Kaikou

    @Susan

    Morning. Yeah PJ crossfire came out of left field. But if you, Ana, and Coff have reason to suspect that he/she is around then I can see why I shined as an example. Either way I know that I am not PJ so that is enough for me. Again it’s the internet after all people see what they want to see.

    @Herb

    I am not sure if you are seriously offended or joking. I didn’t mean anything by calling you Herby. But the name calling and threats didn’t really match the level I put out there. Not sure what that’s about. Say hi to Charles for me, will ya? Won’t bother you guys any longer.

    Re: Zuck

    It’s because Chan(g?) is not fitting her hot to trot Asian stereotype. America (U.S.) is a sick sick place. If you don’t play your part expect tomatoes. Sounds like a place I know.

    Re: Grace +Brad Pitt

    Yeah I agree with whoever said that they have different communication styles and expectations. It’s not going to work out (not on the same level) either way.

    Re: Post on Female Emotional Escalation

    Can’t wait.

  • Ted D

    Escoffier – ” It’s hard for me to imagine a UMC girl who would live with a guy long term with no prospect of marriage in sight.”

    I know Susan’s target audience is UMC women, but the truth is where I live, I see a lot of people in “cohabitation” and even having children without marriage anywhere on the table. In fact, I would say that it is a very popular choice among the younger non-college (or perhaps community college) set around these parts. The thing that stinks though is many/most will not work out long term, which means a great number of children will be growing up in single parent homes around me, as if there aren’t enough from divorce already.

    Seriously, you guys might want to look at areas outside of the UMC lifestyle. I know that the black community is brought up here sometimes as an example of how bad things can get. I’m here to tell you, in my neck of the woods, it isn’t just the black community in sad shape. It has spread to pretty much the entire lower-class/working-class community in many suburbs of Pittsburgh. I get that it isn’t a prime concern for UMC folks now, but what do you think will happen when the bottom falls out completely down here?

  • Herb

    @J

    I’m gonna give you the same advice that I’m giving my friend whose husband just moved in with another woman during their separation (because I’m just that sort of gender equity kind of gal 😉 ) Whenever possible your position towards a soon-to-be ex-spouse should be that their actions are by and large irrelevant to you. Easier said than done, I know, but reacting to them gives them more power over your life than they should have. It’s also not fair to the next person to be reacting to the ex and not to them.

    Divorce was final on 2002/07/31 to give you and idea how long ago this was.

    In fact, the (still) wife went to the rest of the season with me. Since then I went alone until this season when I told my current gf who I’d been seeing four months before the first show of the season.

    Ironically both the Boston season opener in 2000-2001 season and Atlanta season opener this just finished season included The Four Seasons as one of the ballets. Atlanta’s was much better which doesn’t surprise me given Atlanta seems a much more adventuresome company (no surprise as Boston is a Balanchine company.

    The other ballet for Boston’s opener that year was Barber’s Cello Concerto which remains one of the most moving performances I’ve seen. Atlanta’s other opener was McGregor’s EDEN/EDEN. I’m still processing it. The music is from Reich’s Three Tales (specifically “Dolly”). Reich is an acquired taste and while I enjoyed it and the staging and costuming were daring (I was so afraid someone was going to fall through the open trap which dancers used to enter the stage) but it was still avant-garde. I’m glade they brought him to do it but I can’t say “I loved it” and for people not hard core into ballet it was probably a bit much.

    @Tom

    I get the feeling a lot of men here are like this. Many men here see women as cooks, maids, mommies and sex objects.

    I’m less interested in them only as cooks/maids/mommies/sex object and more concerned too many modern women seem to think the last of those alone is worth more than all four plus real intimacy plus being a true partner in life used to be.

    Not a good sign for them.

    More on that in a second.

    @J again

    (she made pretty much that exact statement including the word princess during dinner).

    Princess? Really? Then you should run for the hills. Srsly!

    Oh, I revised my opinion way down, was polite the rest of the evening, and stepped back to seriously re-think my choices.

    My next gf was one of three who have lasted beyond a few months since my ex-wife. She made it almost a year (the current gf hits a year in either two weeks or six weeks depending on how you want to count). While waiting for lunch today I realized all three had one commonality that most women I’ve found appealing since then have: they’re college dropouts for various reasons.

    None are dumb. All are able to engage me intellectually and have serious intellectual interests. Yet none finished college. Also, none are princesses.

    Most of the college educated (ie, have a degree) that I have encountered are princesses. Many are the feminist princess types I described above.

    This is what I was talking about above when I said more later. In finishing college something seems to happen to a lot of women that really fuels entitlement. I don’t know if it’s heavy exposure to attitudes of the women’s studies type or if it’s a general college thing.

    A sizable fraction of the college educated women who weren’t princesses were non-traditional students when they got their degrees. I was the same way having dropped out after a year to join the Navy. I wonder if there is a general entitlement mentality that college with a traditional path provides, perhaps coming from not being in the real world, and if I was dating men who had degrees that way I’d see entitlement (to sex, maybe) in their attitudes.

    I thought this was worth bringing up here given your audience. Somehow, college degrees go to a lot of women’s heads (and, perhaps the men as well). If you can avoid whatever it is that causes that phenomena and the resulting entitlement princess mentality you’re a lot more likely to attract a man who wants a girlfriend and later a wife.

  • Wudang

    “Also, if any of the guys are interested, I could give a quick list of the things he did that set off the “beta radar”, and that dampened my attraction. It may be better to know what not to do, straight from the horses mouth, if you don’t want to appear super beta.”

    I`d realy like to see that list. I`could be very educational. Since you had a lot of hope for him in the begining it would be nice to see the good things too, or the good things that apeared to be there in the begining, in order to get a realistic picture of him.

  • J, thank you, you are too kind! But honestly candid photos generally aren’t very flattering to Asian features. In some pictures others have taken of me, I look downright bad. 😛 The photos I post are when I’m at my “best,” so not a fair comparison.

    Ted, I’m not exactly UMC, but I know a lot of couples among those classmates I know who went to Ivy Leagues and did the cohabitation thing. In fact a lot of guys from UMC backgrounds expect it nowadays as a “test” of how the girl will act in a long-term, marriage-lite scenario. So yeah maybe a small portion of the UMC won’t move in together, but it’s happening more and more.

  • Emily

    >> ” Much better compared to what women usually write about themselves in their dating profiles, e.g.
    sarcastic (“bitch”)
    challenging (“bitch”)
    career-driven (“workaholic-bitch”)
    spiritual (“vegan-bitch”)
    intellectual (“Eat-Pray-Bitch”) ”

    Hmm… A post about online profile “Red Flags” could be fun. Just a thought.

  • Escoffier

    “but what do you think will happen when the bottom falls out completely down here?”

    This is a point I often make to blase friends who think everything is peachy. I rarely get through to them.

    Hope, I see close to no evidence that UMC people are shacking up en masse beyond, say, moving in together 6 months before the wedding. This in a life spent almost entirely in SF/LA/DC/NY. I can assure you that mom & dad do not approve and most peers don’t either. It’s not a moral objection as much as a class marker.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Escoffier

    Sassy, let’s hear it.

    Okay.

    Here is a list of the things he did that definitely pegged him as a beta, which also dampened my attraction to him.

    1. When we first met, he went on a slight tangent about how attractive I was.
    – Explanation: When we met, he kept telling me how attractive I was, and then went on to tell me how he was honored that I agreed to go on a date with him. Seriously? I hate when guys do this. First off, this guy wasn’t bad looking in the least. He was quite attractive, and I’d consider he and I relatively of the same attractiveness level. A simple “You look pretty tonight” would have sufficed. When he commenced to denigrate himself and ramble on about my looks, it made me feel uneasy.

    2. Whenever I would ask his opinion on something that related to our dates (Ex: what time to meet up, where we should sit in a restaurant, where we should go on our dates, etc), he always deferred to my decision.
    -Explanation: If I asked him any of the questions above, he would always answer by saying “Whatever you want to do is fine” or “Wherever you want to sit/go is fine with me”. I hated it. If I ask a guy for his opinion, it’s because I actually care to hear it. I wanted his input, but he only cared to go with my opinion. The truth of the matter is that I don’t want to be the person in charge of holding the reins all the time.

    3. He talked about his feelings a lot.
    -Explanation: Whenever he and I talked, the conversation would tend to drift towards his “feelings”. If I had a dollar for every time he said the words “feelings” or “emotions”, I’d have enough money to buy myself something nice. I’m not saying that I don’t want an emotional guy. What I am saying, however, is that it was a little too much for the beginning stages of a relationship. I finally caught on to my displeasure of it after he said something about feelings one day, and I caught myself giving him a “WTF” side-eye look afterwards. My face instinctively did it, and I was shocked by it as well.

    4. When we kissed for the first time, he interrupted the kiss to tell me that he was feeling self conscious.
    -Explanation: This happened, I kid you not. During our first kiss, he pulled back a little and said that he felt self conscious. I asked him why, and he said that he thought he was a bad kisser. I’m sorry, but if I’m kissing you, your only obligation is to STFU and kiss me. He ruined the moment, and included more of his feelings to boot. That was probably the final straw that broke the camel’s back. I couldn’t even kiss him without having to hear about his lack of confidence.

    I knew things wouldn’t go very well if he and I continued to see each other. I feel like, if we did, I’d have to constantly prop up his self esteem and convince him that I truly wanted to be with him. That alone threw me off, considering he was very attractive. I’ve dealt with men like him a few times before, and now I know to just steer clear of them. The lack of confidence usually turns into neediness and jealousy/possessiveness later on, especially if other men even hint at hitting on me in front of them (which always seems to happen at some point).

    @ Wudang

    I`d realy like to see that list. I`could be very educational. Since you had a lot of hope for him in the begining it would be nice to see the good things too, or the good things that apeared to be there in the begining, in order to get a realistic picture of him.

    As far as the things I liked about him in the beginning, here’s a list of what made me so excited about him before the beta fallout:

    1. He was very physically attractive (tall, blond, blue eyes, handsome face, very well dressed, etc)

    2. He had a great sense of humor, and I laughed a lot with him.

    3. He was very artistic. We spent hours talking about music, literature, art, the concept of beauty, etc. We were very compatible in this regard.

    4. We had similar life goals. He wasn’t opposed to marriage and he also didn’t want to have children, which was a huge plus to me.

    5. He had somewhat of a loner/rebel edge to him. I spoke often of his intention of getting a motorcycle soon.

    • @Sassy

      Sounds like you got hit with a double whammy there. A supplicating emo.

      Emo without supplication is very attractive to many women, but your description is painful.

      1. Saying he’s honored to have his invitation accepted – feels unworthy; low self-esteem.
      2. 100% malleable and aiming to please – no backbone.
      3. Self-referential conversations about emotions – save it for the therapist.
      4. Fear of being a bad kisser – keep it to yourself!

      Frankly, I’m not sure how this guy ever got through your filter, since you’re on record as only liking very dominant men.

  • Kaikou

    @Sassy #4 is hilarious

  • modernguy

    @escoffier

    I agree with you that social pressure is on the man to offer marriage, but as a practical and logical thing, there just isn’t any real benefit. In that sense, men still very much have blinders on. Obviously women would prefer to keep them on us.

  • Sassy, ouch! My husband would have turned your stomach then lol. He talked a lot about emotions and feelings with me, he wasn’t very smooth, and he did elaborate on how hot he perceived me to be. I ate it all up like raspberry double chocolate.

    Alpha requirements seem so different from woman to woman…

  • Escoffier

    Thanks Sassy.

    By those metrics, I’m not so bad!

  • Marie

    @ Emily
    Regarding online ‘red flags’, I found this pretty good
    http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/01/things-to-avoid-in-your-internet-dating.html

  • Escoffier

    modernguy, the point is, if you want to keep a quality girl, 9 out of 10 (or more) will still require you to marry her. If you don’t want keep her, fine. But I would dispute the notion that hopping from one LTR to another offers all the same benefits as marriage.

  • modernguy

    “But I would dispute the notion that hopping from one LTR to another offers all the same benefits as marriage.”

    Maybe you could just enumerate the benefits then, to a man with options, which is what we’re talking about here.

  • Wudang

    That was very usefull Sassy. Especialy since it included what initialy attracted you to him. 1-3 are something he did almost entirely because of the cultural memes of the last 40 years. Talking about his emotions all the time and thinking defering to what you want all the time and excessive compliments are all part of the instruction manual we got. Number 4 is more murky. Getting nervous while kissing could have happened in any day and age but saying that he was nervous and believing it would somehow be positive is probably rather unique for our time. I certainly had the instinct to not display weakness during my teens but eventually got fooled into believing it was a good thing because I was repeatedly told so.

    He really had a lot of attractive qualities to him. 1-5 on that list are really attractive traits that combine strong tingle production with important bonding triggers or rapport factors or what one should call it. Looks, great humour and being very artistic are all three clear tingle producers, as are the loner/rebel age and motorcycle desire. Number three is part tingle and part rapport/bonding because it encompasses not just him being artistic but you talking for ours about related subjects. 4 is a key compatibility factor.

    If ever there was a guy that was a perfect example of how being generally attractive and probably in a sense “right” or a good fit/match for a woman while still ending up not creating enough attraction because of elementary lack of game, this is it. I totally get why you where atracted initially and why you lost attraction eventually. It would take 10-15 minutes of conversation to explain this guy what he did wrong and how not to do it again and it would make him just as attractive as you thought he was/as he “should” be. But that won`t help you as you can`t very well explain to him how to pick you up, he needs to get this from someone else.

    The lack of confidence he displayed might be personal but from what you have writting it appears to be the cultural “lack of confidence” that stems from our beliefs of what we are supposed to do/what is supposed to work. He probably believes leading in the interaction with you equals being a misogynistic ashole.

    He is a great example though of how much more really attractive men there can be with just a very basic understanding of game. So many guys I know are variations over this guy. They basically just need a tiny bit of outer game understanding and to be told it is OK to lead and OK to go for what you want and it is more important to display strength and deceisiveness than sensitivity etc. and they would be near perfect.

    Thanks for the analysis. VERY usefull stuff.

  • Sassy,

    All of that was pretty typical bad beta behavior. No doubt a lot of that would kill attraction.

    Funny thing is, the biggest thing I had to go through with those 4 is number 2, taking charge. I think a lot of guys don’t actually want the woman to lead, but they legitimately don’t give a shit about trivial decisions that you mentioned (at least I generally don’t), so they defer. It was amazing to see the difference in women when I decided to always lead and tell. Literally night and day, and while it was a bit weird at first for me, I have really internalized it into my personality now.

  • Escoffier

    my earlier post already anitcipated your response. If you don’t want to keep the girl, then there is no benefit to marriage.

  • Tom

    deti
    And I don’t think that an attractive young woman has only “few benefits” to offer a man of similar SMV. If she’s a 9, she has a lot to offer a 9-10 man, particularly if she has a low partner count and isn’t a slut. She’s a quality woman. That is a lot to offer right there
    ____________
    You cant be serious. Looks is a lot to offer?? in a relationship????
    Dude a successful relationship has a LOT more to do with a long list of things, the least being looks… Man some peoples perception of reality is just unbelievable.

  • modernguy

    @Escoffier

    Submitting yourself to the very real risk of financial and emotional divorce rape and the wreckage of that is a pretty reckless move on your part to “keep” a woman who’s loyalty is as good as all the previous dudes she’s been through or who’ve been through her. By this strategy the divorce rape industry will be alive and well for a long time to come. If they won’t stay with you unless you prostrate yourself at the altar for them, let them fly and find a hapless beta who will eventually learn better.

  • Someone asked for this:

    Online Dating Profile Codewords For Bossy And Domineering Women:

    Strong and Independent
    Sassy
    Headstrong
    Opinionated
    Feisty
    Willful
    Bold
    Demanding
    Ambitious
    Hard charging
    Sarcastic
    Assertive
    Aggressive
    A handful
    Difficult
    Challenging
    Tough
    Smart-aleck
    Uncompromising
    Won’t “settle”
    Usually gets what she wants
    Competitive
    Outspoken

    It is important to note that many of these words and phrases are applied to men in a far more positive light. Most of these words and phrases describe successful alpha men. If a woman is applying these words to herself, she perceives herself herself as having masculine characteristics. It’s like saying “I have a penis” in an online dating profile.

    Original blog post: http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2011/03/10/online-profile-codewords-used-by-bossy-and-domineering-women/

  • Sassy6519

    @ Wudang

    I’m glad that my description was helpful to you.

    People tell me that I’m very self aware, which I’d say is true. I know what I want, and I was definitely able to pinpoint exactly what caused a disturbance in the budding relations between he and I.

    @ Susan Walsh

    Sounds like you got hit with a double whammy there. A supplicating emo.

    Emo without supplication is very attractive to many women, but your description is painful.

    1. Saying he’s honored to have his invitation accepted – feels unworthy; low self-esteem.
    2. 100% malleable and aiming to please – no backbone.
    3. Self-referential conversations about emotions – save it for the therapist.
    4. Fear of being a bad kisser – keep it to yourself!

    Frankly, I’m not sure how this guy ever got through your filter, since you’re on record as only liking very dominant men.

    He did seem fairly dominant on the first date (except for #1), which is why I was so excited about him afterwards. The beta traits started to become more numerous and recurring on the subsequent dates. Even then, I like to give men a few chances to show me who they are. It wasn’t until I saw his beta actions popping up on every date that I was certain that was what he was truly like. The biggest one (#4) didn’t happen until the third date. I was willing to overlook him showing a beta trait or two on one date. When I noticed a pattern of increasing intensity, however, I couldn’t really avoid it anymore.

    @ Hope

    Sassy, ouch! My husband would have turned your stomach then lol. He talked a lot about emotions and feelings with me, he wasn’t very smooth, and he did elaborate on how hot he perceived me to be. I ate it all up like raspberry double chocolate.

    The thing is, I don’t really like it when a man talks a lot about how attractive he finds me. I’m aware of how I look. I’ve heard about my looks more times than I can count. I prefer that a guy mentions my looks briefly without lingering on it. Just say “You look pretty tonight”, and move on.

  • Escoffier

    OK, champ, I agree, in your case, don’t get married.

  • Tom

    Modernguy
    Actually I’m being very modern there. There simply isn’t any good reason to marry these days unless you’re getting a virgin. Getting married means you’re trading in all your possible future options and opportunities for that one woman. Certainly she didn’t wait for you, so in that sense she doesn’t deserve a good will move on your part. Considering men get nothing out of marriage that they can’t get otherwise these days, getting married only means that you are doing her a favor. So you have to ask yourself if it’s worth it. Is it worth putting your future financial and emotional well being in her hands?
    ______________
    Well I might agree with you if all a marriage is,is just about about sex.

    “Getting married means you’re trading in all your possible future options and opportunities for that one woman” …EXACTLY!.. Sorry but I dont see what her saving herself just for me has to do with having a successful marriage. Virgins get divorced too.

  • Sassy6519

    Online Dating Profile Codewords For Bossy And Domineering Women:

    Sassy

    So, I’m bossy and domineering huh?

    Good to know.

  • Jon

    She went, and they had a nice conversation. Toward the end, he made moves, they made out for a while, then she left. He tried to escalate and she demurred, to which he said, “smart girl.”

    She was very excited about him at that point. So there were three good hangs: the coffee date, the party, and a glass of wine at his place. But his effort definitely declined after that, and it’s been a while. Maybe he couldn’t tell she was interested? How can we ever know what men think????!!!!

    Am I being too hard on this guy?

    It seems like things were going well to me, but if I had to guess, I’d say either the way she “demurred” may have given him the idea that sex was either out of the question altogether or would take substantially more work than we was prepared to put into it (the extreme version would be “not until I’m married”) or that when she resisted him coming to her apartment that he got the impression she was trying to move the relationship backward or slow their progress. They had some good momentum, but the prospect of an indefinite number of “getting to know you dates” could have been discouraging and killed his motivation.

    I actually did something similar recently.

    We went on probably 6 dates over ten months with 4 of those in a three week period. The last three were drinks at my place, dinner out, then dinner and a movie at her place.

    My effort declined after the last date because

    1) She obviously wanted to go further but was resisting because she felt like if she let things get to a certain point she didn’t think she could stop herself from going all the way.
    2) I didn’t know how to deal with that. I suspect that if I was a player it might not have been as much of an issue because I would have known how to help her get out of her own way.
    3) She said she wanted to get together again soon, but that we should try to do something more public.

    Basically my expectations at that point were a series of dates ending with a good night kiss and not much hope of anything more. As a result it was hard to get excited about getting together with her again or put much work into planning another date, and my effort dropped to zero.

    I think I actually found this site while I was trying to figure out if that made me a jerk. 🙂

    • @Jon

      No, that did not make you a jerk, that made you sensible.

      She said she wanted to get together again soon, but that we should try to do something more public.

      I think this is really, really weird. Why go out together if you don’t want to be alone? Getting more public over more dates is a definite fail, IMO.

      Was this woman determined to remain a virgin? What’s wrong with not stopping yourself from going all the way if you’re into her and not a player? Sounds to me like she threw a good one back.

  • Chuck Berry

    We could probably add challenging and a martyr after that last post as well.

    Chuck

  • Ted D

    Sassy – Good stuff. I’d like to toss in my .02.

    1. “When we first met, he went on a slight tangent about how attractive I was.” – I get your issue here. There is nothing wrong with a guy letting you know he thinks you are hot, but once it is established that he finds you attractive, there isn’t much point in bringing it up often. And feeling honored that you wanted to go out with him? He was either trying to make you feel good, or he really doesn’t understand his own value. I used to fall into the latter category, and I even made similar (although not as glaringly self depreciative) comments to my current SO. Lucky for me I found the ‘sphere and nipped that crap right away…

    2. “Whenever I would ask his opinion on something that related to our dates (Ex: what time to meet up, where we should sit in a restaurant, where we should go on our dates, etc), he always deferred to my decision.” – yep that sounds a lot like bad beta programming. Or, perhaps he is like me and naturally doesn’t think too much of “making the decisions.” Again, that was pre-red pill, and I’ve been shown the error of my ways. I still think it is meaningless to be “the man” by deciding where we will eat, but if it gets me attraction? Small price to pay I guess.

    3. “He talked about his feelings a lot.” – HEY! Now listen. It has taken some of us (men that is) an entire lifetime to be OK with sharing our feelings. Sure, I know NOW that it isn’t attractive, but we weren’t told that. If you had ANY idea of just how damn difficult it is for me to “talk about my feelings”, I think you just might respect it a little more. For sure you won’t find it attractive. But compared to a man that not only doesn’t talk about his feelings, but doesn’t even know how to deal with them, you are better off having a man with this beta trait IMO.

    4. “When we kissed for the first time, he interrupted the kiss to tell me that he was feeling self conscious.” – wow. I have nothing for this. I mean, I was scared shitless the first time I kissed my SO, but I did my best to hide it. Which evidently was successful as I told her much later on how totally stressed out I was. YEAH for my ability to hide my emotions!
    “I knew things wouldn’t go very well if he and I continued to see each other. I feel like, if we did, I’d have to constantly prop up his self esteem and convince him that I truly wanted to be with him.”

    I think you are right here. His constant reminding of how hot you were compared to him tells me he really wasn’t confident that he could keep you interested long. Either that or he tried to play his “nice guy” routine too hard.

    “The lack of confidence usually turns into neediness and jealousy/possessiveness later on, especially if other men even hint at hitting on me in front of them (which always seems to happen at some point).”

    Exactly. It is hard enough to be a confident guy with super attractive women. For a guy lacking confidence, it is a life of worry and jealousy. I mean, I’m a bit paranoid, but I honestly don’t walk around looking for alphas hiding in the bushes outside my house. To me, any guy trying to be with a woman he feels is that much higher value than he is will be as wound up like a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. It won’t end well for anyone.

    Jason773 – “ I think a lot of guys don’t actually want the woman to lead, but they legitimately don’t give a shit about trivial decisions that you mentioned (at least I generally don’t), so they defer. It was amazing to see the difference in women when I decided to always lead and tell. “

    Yep this was me. It wasn’t that I wanted her to lead, I really just don’t give a shit 9.5 times out of 10 what I eat for dinner. Seriously, I just. Don’t. care.

    But, as you pointed out, women respond to these decisions in a way that makes them seem to be the most important in the world. I will never understand why ME picking a restaurant for tonight makes my SO happy, but I can’t deny how she just seems to be relaxed and happy when I make the choices. We don’t always go where I picked, but I “let” her talk me out of it now if she wants to go somewhere else. And, I usually tell her it will “cost her extra” when we get home. Works like a charm, makes me feel like a cad. *shrug*

  • Herb

    @Escoffier

    modernguy, the point is, if you want to keep a quality girl, 9 out of 10 (or more) will still require you to marry her. If you don’t want keep her, fine. But I would dispute the notion that hopping from one LTR to another offers all the same benefits as marriage.

    Same benefits – no.

    Better hedged risk profile -yes

    Serial LTR don’t expose you to legal risk which for a lot of men (especially ones previously abandoned by a wife) is a big deal. The potential gain is lower, much lower but so is the potential loss and the ratio of recovered loss versus lost gain is very favorable.

  • @Sassy

    If you used that word to describe yourself in an online dating profile, you run the serious risk of being perceived as bossy and domineering. As I don’t know you personally, I have no clue about your personality.

  • Tom

    @ Modernguy
    Maybe you could just enumerate the benefits then, to a man with options, which is what we’re talking about here.

    ___________
    You can throw out all those options when a man falls in love. I guess some guys ARE destined to prove their manhood time after time by jumping from woman to woman. Then there are guys, yes 9/10 guys who have options but forego those options to settledown with a woman he falls for.

  • J

    @Herb

    The music is from Reich’s Three Tales (specifically “Dolly”). Reich is an acquired taste and while I enjoyed it and the staging and costuming were daring (I was so afraid someone was going to fall through the open trap which dancers used to enter the stage) but it was still avant-garde.

    There’s a ballet to the Reich thing about the cloned sheep? My husband would love to see that.

    I’m not sure that every woman with a college degree has a sense of entitlement, but I’m glad you’re staying away from princesses these days.
    🙂

  • Tom

    Herb, one word

    Prenup….lol

  • Herb

    @Tom

    Herb, one word

    Prenup….lol

    Many women refuse to sign and even if they do, prenups are far from ironclad.

    For one thing a prenup cannot invalidate local law so things likes “presumption of paternity” cannot be prenupped out of existence. States with presumption of support (often very blue states…tells you something about feminism) often do not allow prenups to invalidate them.

  • J

    @Hope

    J, thank you, you are too kind!

    LOL. People rarely accuse me of that!

    But honestly candid photos generally aren’t very flattering to Asian features.

    I know the feeling. The camera is rarely kind to the angularity of my Mediterranean face either. I often take a hard-looking photo.

    In some pictures others have taken of me, I look downright bad. The photos I post are when I’m at my “best,” so not a fair comparison.

    You look great in the one of you and you husband and the one with the collar-bone length bob.

    Priscilla Chan looks great in her wedding photos (and probably had some professional help with that). In paparazzi shots, she is average looking. If you were to see her and Zuck walking down the street and didn’t know who they were, they’d made a typical beta-ish couple where the guy and girl had an equal SMP value.

  • Tom

    Yeah presumption is a tuffy…I wonder if DNA would help…

  • Tom

    FYI prenups in Ohio, if written well, are ironclad.

  • @ Sassy
    Hilarious. I wish I had a video or something to watch of those Beta mistakes. And some popcorn. Its stories like this that make me appreciate where I fall on the Alpha/Beta spectrum and realize that no, I don’t have it that bad. Just gotta overcome years of nurture suppressing nature. And then find a cute little hipster chick that looks good in a dress and appreciates curly redheaded artists.

  • Herb

    @Tom

    Yeah presumption is a tuffy…I wonder if DNA would help…

    Of course it would, but most women would scream bloody murder.

    Efforts to introduce it are opposed by feminist groups as an attack on women.

  • Wudang

    “went on to tell me how he was honored that I agreed to go on a date with him. Seriously? I hate when guys do this. First off, this guy wasn’t bad looking in the least. He was quite attractive, and I’d consider he and I relatively of the same attractiveness level. A simple “You look pretty tonight” would have sufficed. When he commenced to denigrate himself and ramble on about my looks, it made me feel uneasy.”

    Some guys take that to absurd lengths:

    http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/boundless-blogger-considers-first-anniversary-a-miracle/

  • Lokland

    I agree with deti.

    Cute, loyal, faithful and kindness in a woman is valuable to a marriage in and of itself.
    Actually they probably represent 90% of the value in a marriage.

    I can make my own food and wash my own socks.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    Looks like you found a good one.
    Thanks for the description.

  • BroHamlet

    @Tom & deti

    You cant be serious. Looks is a lot to offer?? in a relationship????
    Dude a successful relationship has a LOT more to do with a long list of things, the least being looks… Man some peoples perception of reality is just unbelievable.

    I agree, Tom. Not that I’m calling out deti- he’s usually really reasonable, and I suspect it wasn’t his intent to narrow it down so far, but I’ll let him speak for himself on that.

    @Susan

    Tom gets at something real here. So much has been made about this girl Grace’s SMV being high because she’s cute (or beautiful, whatever). Truth is, a package of 1 item isn’t a package at all (for anyone, male or female), and everyone knows that it takes a whole host of positive traits to make a solid long term relationship. Now, I know Grace probably has other strong points. Simple fact is, though, for women in the 9/10 range it takes a lot to make it worth a 9/10 guy’s while to enter a relationship, especially at an age like 22 where neither party is likely to be in that relationship for all that long. As someone else already mentioned- when a girl talks about “I want a commitment”, guys who have been around the block a little bit think in the back of their heads “we’ll see how long this lasts”. At 22, that’s probably not going to be long, especially for a hot girl- inevitably another Mr. Big will come along (even if you are Mr. Big already), and your “LTR” is a wrap.

    You asked the question before as to what an attractive, high SMV girl’s strategy should be at that age. Hope gets at the most effective ways- her girl game is tight, obviously. And she is totally right in saying that all filter and no catch is a recipe for failure. In my experience a lot of early 20-something girls are just that. Femininity is REALLY key. The looks will get his attention, but the femininity is what keeps him around. My suggestion would be to use the femininity as a filter in and of itself, because only a sociopath will want to take advantage of a girl that shows some vulnerability. If a girl senses a hardened player or a sociopath, she should put up HARD screening measures- women are really perceptive so I wouldn’t think it would be a stretch for them to know when this is necessary.

    Is there going to be a – “Filtering advice for men” post?

    Done and done:
    1) Hot. Sane. Single.
    2) Pick two of the above. If you find one with all 3, WIFE HER NOW.

    • @BroHamlet

      My suggestion would be to use the femininity as a filter in and of itself, because only a sociopath will want to take advantage of a girl that shows some vulnerability.

      Wow, that’s a great concept. I’ve always thought of femininity as a lure, but you’re confirming what Hope said and Dogsquat seconded, which is that femininity or vulnerability will filter in the good guys and filter out the bad.

      I do worry about the sociopaths – for them that would be like blood in the water to a shark.

  • Yes, a woman of color who is not the ideal swpl type of beauty? Oh, yes, I’ve seen the nasty comments about her looks and about his choice to be with her.

    I hate to make it about race but per my experience when a WOC marries a white man that is superior to her on some way “looks, money, success” there is a lot more talk than if she were white. It was one of the many things I noticed at Jezebel.

    Message received. I’ll have to think on this. Hope has weighed in, but if any other women here have successfully done this, I’d love to hear about it. I don’t have any personal experience with this. :-/

    My strategy was similar but I didn’t though it was a strategy I was being honest about how things were progressing for me. I did sent the first message as mentioned but I also sent the first gift we meet on December and in February when we already accumulated several hours I sent him a Valentine (it was some Dominican candy and some tiny plastic bonsais because he told me his plants kept dying I though he would like them he still has them on both his desk), now I need to mention that I enjoy giving a great deal and one of the things I missed about not having a boyfriend on ten years was not having anyone to give things/money/sexual attention. I think that makes hubby feel more confident on pursuing me himself further, specially when he told me that here in USA men are expected to give Valentines while is more or less optional for women. Then of course I have a high emotional intelligence so I discovered his likings and remember them and ask him a lot about it, I also asked him about his old girlfriends I didn’t knew it them but according to Margaret Kent (How to marry the man of your choice) this is a good technique to connect with a man’s emotions because for most men women of his past occupy a special place so sharing this important emotional milestones with him make you special to him. I also clearly communicated him that I was a virgin but I also used to do small signals of sexual interest like initiating sex talk, I gifted me with a webcam so I used to strip on the webcam for him, and I sent him a video of me felating my finger for a few seconds spontaneously and I asked him to strip for me and of course complimented his “family jewels” once I saw them. I never asked him for presents of money (except when he came to visit me the first time I told him that I wanted something he made himself and that I can carry with me at all times, I was picturing a keychain but he instead made me a silver ring that ended up becoming my engagement band :D) and once we decided for him to come and visit me I asked to share expenses 50/50 because I knew it was a big expense for him. I did let him to tell me he loved me first it was a shock but once I felt he was in love with me allowing myself to tell him the same was easier from them on we always say “I love you” when we say good bye over the phone or before we leave for work.
    Hope that helps.

    I’m getting excited. Isn’t that silly? I can’t help it, I feel like Mother Goose.

    Me too! Is the first HUS wedding after all so its a time for celebration. 😀

    The goths were perfect with the “don’t care attitude” and the constant cloves. Plus, the use of the universal goth distress signal of “hand, staple, forehead” by the one kid was perfect.

    Yeah the guys did their homework.

    I think the reason people are being so mean is that they view it as a waste. For a ton of guys, if they spent their 20s with billions of dollars running one of the coolest companies in the world, they’d be converting that into strange, hot p*ssy every night of the week. It’s the ultimate demonstration of High Market Value, and so they feel he got handed the keys to the player kingdom and essentially said “no thanks”. That’s why guys are upset about it.

    Yeha many men have this idea that any guy that reaches certain level should use it to bed as many women as possible so committing to one is like they are betraying the dream, they owe the ones that can’t to project themselves into that position. Is as stupid as feminist complaining of women becoming wives and mothers instead of career girls so both genders seem to have a natural impulse against monogamy if the person has better options regardless if that particular individual thinks differently, YMMV.

    • @Anacaona

      My strategy was similar but I didn’t though it was a strategy I was being honest about how things were progressing for me.

      Thanks for sharing your story, it was full of great suggestions!

  • Herb

    @Ana

    Yeha many men have this idea that any guy that reaches certain level should use it to bed as many women as possible so committing to one is like they are betraying the dream, they owe the ones that can’t to project themselves into that position. Is as stupid as feminist complaining of women becoming wives and mothers instead of career girls so both genders seem to have a natural impulse against monogamy if the person has better options regardless if that particular individual thinks differently, YMMV.

    Yet the same feminists would be screaming bloody murder if he hadn’t wifed up his “ugly” girlfriend (can’t comment on if ugly is right or not, never seen a picture and don’t care enough to look) but had become a player instead.

    Which is really odd…men should marry but women shouldn’t? (kind of like the worst of the players who will only marry virgins).

  • OffTheCuff

    Bravo, Sassy, for being honest, both here, and to your date.

    Those sure do look like chump moves to me, when done so early on. I sure wouldn’t be caught dead doing that stuff, even when I was 20, and I’m true-blue “beta”. In the past you’ve set a very high bar for what you want when it comes to alpha qualities, but what you say here is NOT unreasonable. Not in the least bit.

    Your situation is puzzling. Maybe you just need an uglier guy with better game, because all the good-looking guys (who aren’t players) are to used to having it way too easy. They can get away with chumpy behavior with most women, but not with you. I don’t know.

  • Lokland

    On Priscilla Chan

    Shes not a super model. Her wedding photo is beautiful. Other google pics show a pretty/cute woman. She is definetely not ugly.

    Except in some photos she looked a little hefty but it appears she dropped it. Looks much better for it.

  • Lokland

    @Susan, Ana

    “I’m getting excited. Isn’t that silly? I can’t help it, I feel like Mother Goose.

    Me too! Is the first HUS wedding after all so its a time for celebration. ”

    You two are funny. Thank you.

  • Chuck Berry

    “My suggestion would be to use the femininity as a filter in and of itself, because only a sociopath will want to take advantage of a girl that shows some vulnerability. If a girl senses a hardened player or a sociopath, she should put up HARD screening measures- women are really perceptive so I wouldn’t think it would be a stretch for them to know when this is necessary.”

    I believe the old catholic line goes something like ‘The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing you that he does not exist.’

    I think the second greatest trick was convincing you that evil and good are easy to tell from one another. I would wager the majority of people are not actually aware of the the social paths in their everyday life let alone what separates one from the other.

    Chuck

  • Which is really odd…men should marry but women shouldn’t? (kind of like the worst of the players who will only marry virgins).

    @Lokland
    Aside from that fact that I sort of respect certain things you do and are (not all as probably you had noted) and I think you truly love your fiance and she loves you and I think marriage is the best way two people in love can enjoy themselves and form a family.
    I will also count that every marriage and baby born from the regular commenter is a small badge of victory. What would be the point of all this gender talk if no one places their money were their mouth is? I’m a woman of results after all 😉

  • BroHamlet

    @Chuck Berry

    I guess the way Hope described it, it was actively seeking to probe a person’s intentions by taking it to an emotional level, not just sucking your thumb and giving doe eyes, or rolling over to get taken advantage of. Susan asked for strategies, and this seems better than what they’ve currently been doing, because the current methods don’t work that well, which is why we’re having this discussion at all.

  • Herb

    @Lokland

    I can make my own food and wash my own socks.

    While I get what you’re saying I think you’re missing a broader issue in terms of cultural trends.

    Look at the usage of ready made meals and dining out today compared to even 1980. Look at how wrinkly clothes are (remember, I took a class on ironing at SJW so to me it’s important).

    Marriage has long been a combination of complementary skills. What those skills are varies with time but egalitarian marriage is no labor specialization is rare. I’m tempted to say it’s a modern American experiment.

    That’s a real concern for me both personally and on a social level.

    I can cook. To be honest I’m better at it than my current gf. If we move in together (as we’ve discussed) I will probably do most of the cooking. That will provide value beyond making food. It provides constancy and routine. It promotes concentration on specialized skills which means the development and deployment of comparative advantage which means a better standard of living for both of us.

    In fact, home economics of the 50/60s was designed to give a woman comparative advantage in those skills improving both her life and her husbands. It allowed her husband to concentrate on work giving him comparative advantage there. Even if we aren’t equipped by cultural default that way anymore highlighting what we specialize in and looking for mates who specialize in the compliments and then organizing our lives for comparative advantage will help.

    I’d argue a lot of cost of living increases (higher monetary cost for the same standard of living…this is separate from increasing the baseline) since the 60s is the loss of this comparative advantage in more and more households.

    Wanting a wife who, say, cooks isn’t just about women’s work but can be about partnership.

    @Ana: the men should marry and woman shouldn’t was me.

  • BroHamlet, thanks for saying I have good girl game. 🙂 I’d say 70% of it comes from red pill knowledge, and the rest being cultural factors and instinct/habit.

    I’ve written these posts before:

    http://www.rosehope.com/what-makes-men-fall-in-love/

    http://www.rosehope.com/loves-logic/

    There are only small bits about emotional escalation in there. I write generally about cultivating a good, kind, sweet, feminine, open, and loving self and allowing men into your heart.

    Lots of women walk around with their guards and walls up, and that’s not conducive to letting a man love her. I’ve known girls who don’t do much at all to inspire secret admirers, and they’re not always the 9s and 10s in looks. They all exude this loving aura and energy that men find irresistible.

    The bitch shield for the super hot girls attracts player and non-serious types, while the sweetness and kindness attract men who are searching for love. The thing she has to do once she’s attracted the guys is get to know them better and not open her legs in the meanwhile. It’s a better strategy than shutting out the good guys and getting hit on by the most brazen and fearless players.

    Another girl game tip; the “beta” stuff a lot of men do is what those men find very attractive if a cute girl was doing it. Take Sassy’s post for example. A man would find it adorable if the girl blushed during the kiss and said she was nervous, if she told him that she felt honored to be there with him, and that he was so good looking and made her feel uncertain.

    The key to getting inside a man’s heart is softness, not hardness. In Eastern philosophy the water’s strength is in its flowing and ability to get inside small crevices and overwhelm. Emotions are compared to water, while logic and reason are compared to rock. You can’t beat a man into loving you, but you can use your warm softness to melt him. That’s the essence of girl game, not combat, manipulation or getting the upper hand.

  • @Ana: the men should marry and woman shouldn’t was me.

    I know I made a mistake there was a paragraph between that and Lokland comment that got chopped off. :/

    Yeah I agree that feminists just want to give the women “whatever she wants right now!” And since she fulfilled the program “Had a career first” they would be on her side but if she was marrying fresh out of HS or didn’t had a career they would be bitching for sure, but then at this point I think feminism is 90% about bitching, the rest might have some sort of purpose, YMMV.

  • J

    Message received. I’ll have to think on this. Hope has weighed in, but if any other women here have successfully done this, I’d love to hear about it. I don’t have any personal experience with this. :-/

    I’d hardly call myself an expert on Girl Game. since I really hate playing games with people. Nonetheless, I think a woman can and should do the following things if they are an honest representation of her feelings:

    1. Say thank you. (Sounds like nothing, but it’s actually huge.)
    2. Say she enjoys being with the guy, is having a good time with him.
    3. Give honest compliments.
    4. Reciprocate the cost of dates with small favors, gifts of food, handmade items, etc. (Bake a cake, knit a sweater.)
    5. Give presents for occasions like birthdays and anniversaries (the latter only if it is not too cloying or desperate looking.)
    6. Be physically affectionate in non-sexual ways (hold hands, place head on shoulders or chest, etc)
    7. Small acts of consideration. Ever see Chaz Palmentieri’s A Bronx Tale? The young narrator is told by a mobster that the test of whether or not a woman is a keeper is if she leans over to unlock the driver’s side door after the guy lets her in on the passenger side.

    IME, that’s the sort of thing that attracts guys who are looking for a wife or LTR.

    • @J

      Thanks for that list. I’m getting a nice little treasure trove of suggestions now.

  • Chuck Berry

    Sadly, new methods will not work either.

    Consider this, is everyone overlooking the shortcut to separating sheep from wolves in sheep clothing OR is the work of separating sheep from wolves in camo really, really difficult?

    I would guess that latter . . . and comparing our current dating scene with the traditional dating scene I would say I have a little bit of evidence in my corner.

    In other words reverse the clock or prepare to becoming the dating detective.

    Chuck

  • Ted D

    CB – “In other words reverse the clock or prepare to becoming the dating detective.”

    We are way past reversing the clock. I wish it wasn’t so, but short of some catastrophic scale event, I don’t see anything putting this genie back in the bottle.

    Of course that isn’t to say something catastrophic won’t occur. But I have to admit that it is sad that I might actually welcome something like this JUST to be done with current Western Society. I’m not wishing for it, but if it happens, I might just welcome the opportunity for massive change.

    I also am very interested in tornadoes. I’ve gone chasing before, and even though I know that what I’m chasing might very well kill somebody, I still welcome the chance to see something so awe inspiring. I would see a catastrophic event in the same light.

  • Sassy6519

    @ OffTheCuff

    Your situation is puzzling. Maybe you just need an uglier guy with better game, because all the good-looking guys (who aren’t players) are to used to having it way too easy. They can get away with chumpy behavior with most women, but not with you. I don’t know.

    I’m not sure what to do either. If even the guys who I think have comparable SMV to me act as if I’m doing them a huge favor by dating them, what hope is there in dating an uglier guy? Perhaps his good game would manifest in him having higher confidence, but how ugly are we talking here? I’m a sucker for good looking men. I guess I need to make some kind of tradeoff between looks and game.

    The more I date, the more I’m starting to realize that finding everything I want in a mate is near impossible.

  • J

    @Ana, et al

    I just saw and answered your DH and Einstein question on the 10 Reasons thread.

  • Lavazza

    Herb:

    “Marriage has long been a combination of complementary skills. What those skills are varies with time but egalitarian marriage is no labor specialization is rare. I’m tempted to say it’s a modern American experiment.”

    Egalitarian couples outsource labor specialization to foreigners from traditional cultures. If their relation is successful they are traditional, but hide it from view and play up the egalitarian aspects in public. It’s not an experiment, it’s a charade.

  • I just saw and answered your DH and Einstein question on the 10 Reasons thread.

    I saw it and answered too!!! 😀

  • pvw

    J May 23, 2012 at 3:56 pm
    Message received. I’ll have to think on this. Hope has weighed in, but if any other women here have successfully done this, I’d love to hear about it. I don’t have any personal experience with this. :-/

    I’d hardly call myself an expert on Girl Game. since I really hate playing games with people. Nonetheless, I think a woman can and should do the following things if they are an honest representation of her feelings:

    My reply:

    I did (and continue to do) all those things back to when I was dating the husband….

  • SUsan said:

    Grace is ultimately responsible for judging Brady’s character before she has sex with him, and if she makes a mistake, it’s 100% on her, right?

    Confessing her feelings and saying what she wants (him) is showing her hand. That leaves her very, very vulnerable. If the guy wants a girlfriend, boom, happy ever after. If he is a cad, she’s just given him a roadmap to pump and dump. He can now prey upon her affection, take her on three daytime dates as modernguy suggested, and get it in.
    ________________________________

    Direct question = direct answer:

    Yes, Grace is responsible for judging the character of the people she allows into her life. Some mistakes will happen unless she is very, very lucky. I believe most men will be understanding about a (very) few of these. If it happens a bunch, though – start looking for the common denominator.

    The advice part:

    Yeah, it does give him a little “hand”. It also draws him out a little. Most dudes are not sociopaths, and most aren’t players. Most guys want a girl they can relax around – let their guard down and be real with. By signalling that she is interested and becoming vulnerable, most men will stop Gaming so hard and more of their real personality will peek out.

    Unless, of course, they are sociopaths/hardcore players/sex addicts/whatever. That is a risk.

    I could get shot by a gangbanger or a cop tomorrow, too, but I have determined that lugging around 40lbs of kevlar and ballistic armor would get in the way of my day to day activities. I’ve traded safety for functionality – and Kevlar ain’t perfect anyway.

    It’s important to point out that the woman should not stop thinking/evaluating actions and affect once the confession is made. Just as I don’t walk around in certain neighborhoods stumbling drunk with money hanging out of my pockets, Grace should not suddenly view the Brode-Ster’s words as gospel truth.

    She’s just attempting to make the situation a little more clear – like switching from a game of Battleship to a game of chess.

    To all you gals reading this –

    There’s something you ought to know:

    If you use this tactic on a Red Pill type guy, he gets a little more real with you, and you find him unsuitable and move on/dump him – he will be much less likely to get real quickly with the next girl. You’re reinforcing the ugliest parts of the manosphere’s knowledge.

    It’s like pollution – won’t affect you individually that much, and you need to do what’s best for your life, but you need to be cognizant of how your actions affect the broader environment.

    Just sayin’.

    • @Dogsquat

      Cosigned. It will never be possible to eliminate all risk from any human activity.

      If you use this tactic on a Red Pill type guy, he gets a little more real with you, and you find him unsuitable and move on/dump him – he will be much less likely to get real quickly with the next girl.

      Fair point, but Hope is recommending Grace say this after spending very little time with Brady. It’s the dating that she misses, because she wants to get to know him. Perhaps she should express sincere interest in getting to know him better, confess her strong attraction, etc. There’s no way she could guarantee compatibility at that point, though.

  • J

    @Ana

    I answered your answer. ;=)

  • Susan, on dealing with sociopaths, those men tend not to want to open up about their emotions. There is very low risk that a girl who intends to get the man to open up about his past and talk about deeper issues is going to catch a sociopath.

    It’s actually easier to run into a sociopath by putting up emotional barriers and not seeking an emotional connection at all. He would be very aloof, outrageously confident, self-centered and needing high stimulation, so if the woman doesn’t go deep she won’t realize he’s sociopathic.

    The whole idea I’ve been putting forth involves looking past the exciting, superficial charms which is the sociopath’s special domain, and looking for that deeper emotional connection which is what the good guy’s will have.

    http://msmorphosis.com/7-warning-signs-you’re-dating-a-sociopath

    • @Hope

      if the woman doesn’t go deep she won’t realize he’s sociopathic.

      Wow, that’s a great point. It makes a lot of sense to test for emotional affect.

  • The almost full-proof protection against sociopaths: don’t let someone play “victim” with you or guilt trip you into doing something. If a person never takes responsibility for his or her past, and it’s always someone else’s fault, that’s a huge red flag.

    Sociopaths take advantage of other people by appealing to their sense of morality which they have none of, and by playing the victim role they rope you in and make you feel for them, while they feel nothing for you. They will lie compulsively and have no remorse about lying.

    Again, going deep and probing into the past will reveal all these things. A sociopath can be charming and a good liar, but won’t be able to overcome his compulsion to make himself look grandiose and “never done wrong.” Same applies to women, too. If nothing is ever her fault, and it’s all on other people, and she’s never done anything wrong, run the other way.

  • @ Sassy
    ” If even the guys who I think have comparable SMV to me act as if I’m doing them a huge favor by dating them, what hope is there in dating an uglier guy? Perhaps his good game would manifest in him having higher confidence, but how ugly are we talking here? I’m a sucker for good looking men. I guess I need to make some kind of tradeoff between looks and game.”

    I personally learned that I have ‘minimums’ for characteristics and qualities women have for me to want to even be around them if considering them romantically/sexually. Once they meet those minimums I want to see how they go above and beyond those in their own individual ways. Its this way that I try and figure out what a woman ‘brings to the table’ and let her qualify herself. I don’t go through it mathematically like this at all, but learned I do this instinctively through introspection after taking the red pill.

    But then, I view me approaching women like I do going into a store. I want to see the wares, pick a few up, try them out, and walk out with one that is mine to own. I imagine women view it much in the inverse. Men come in, might not have the goods to pay, might try and steal it, or pay less. They may use it a couple times and walk out without having ever having the intention to purchase it or try and weasel into returning the product after they’re done with it.

    Mmmm, metaphors. Now the question is, what kind of store are you?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Reading Sassy’s story, sounds like when she says she wants a guy with 80% Alpha she really means 8%, because godDAM, even I wouldn’t do that stuff.

    Maybe he just thought he was being smooth and romantic. I dunno.

    • @ADBG

      Reading Sassy’s story, sounds like when she says she wants a guy with 80% Alpha she really means 8%,

      Arrggghhh, another example of why the alpha/beta dichotomy is so frustrating and hard to discuss! I’m with you though – if I read this correctly, they didn’t even kiss until the third date. In an era when alphas will kick you to the curb for not dropping panties on date three, this guy is clearly a horse of a different color 🙂

  • “Yeah, it does give him a little “hand”. It also draws him out a little. Most dudes are not sociopaths, and most aren’t players. Most guys want a girl they can relax around – let their guard down and be real with. By signalling that she is interested and becoming vulnerable, most men will stop Gaming so hard and more of their real personality will peek out.”

    +1

    Any commitment escalation will be asking the guy to give hand. Any sexual escalation will be asking the girl to give hand. Which is why its important for most relationships that these happen simultaneously.

    You CAN do it other ways. Such as having a hookup turn into a relationship or friends turning into a relationship. But the reality is that it is much, MUCH harder for one of the individuals to do so because they have no hand at all. Thus why women LOVE the “friends that become more” idea; because it gives them every iota of power over the relationship and they’re constantly able to either declare “She never thought of him that way and can’t” or “We were meant to be friends and this isn’t working” or some other bull.

    Which is why men need to stop stop orbiting, stop bitching about her ‘leading them on’ when they gave commitment without any guarantee of romance. They’re as bad as the woman who bitches about a drunk hookup failing to turn into a relationship.

  • Susan, about Grace’s story. My take on it is that she missed the best window of opportunity, and now she’s likely to not be able generate the same kind of intensity and chemistry as when they first went on those dates.

    Men move on a much faster time table than women. There is anecdotal and research-backed evidence, including from Helen Fisher, that men fall in love faster than women do. But she has to inspire that love early on with openness, intensity and reciprocity.

    If she drags her feet too much, that makes the man second-guess as well, and so it’s a very delicate balance. I’d say two weeks to a month is probably the timeframe for the intense discovery phase. Men don’t like to be kept waiting for a long time unless they have no other options, or unless circumstances necessitate it.

    I agree that the guy’s text game is weak, but the regular texting does indicate strong interest. In the beginning, I texted with my husband daily, but I would always turn it up a notch. I would send him links to various articles, ask him what he thought about different subjects, and turn it into something that he might think about more than just “how’s your day?” It was still within the realm of “being friendly,” but definitely above and beyond normal interactions between two neutral, disinterested parties.

    If she prefers face-to-face interactions, she has to make that clear, and ideally the dates would be spaced relatively closely together, several times a week. The key is increased intensity so that a guy has no time to even think about other girls, because his thoughts are consumed by one girl. Helen Fisher talks about this as a characteristic of love — obsessive thoughts about one person. When she allows so much time to pass between interactions, whether face-to-face or digital conversations, the energy level and intensity will dissipate. So it is no surprise that at this point she’s not even all that interested anymore.

    I’d say she should just chalk this one up to a failure and up her game next time. 😛

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @Hope

    “If she drags her feet too much, that makes the man second-guess as well, and so it’s a very delicate balance”

    And I’d like to add, that once the second-guessing starts…well…IME, you’re in a deeeeeeeeeeeep hole. It starts looking like that push-pull relationship that we all we know and hate.

  • ozymandias

    Hey, everybody, I’m sorry for going off-topic (but then this is off-topic already). I’m going to be writing an article for Role/Reboot (Clarisse Thorn edits it) about online dating. Specifically, I’m going to make two profiles: one that’s completely honest (including mentioning my sluthood and feminist activism and pictures in which I dress in butchy clothing) and one that follows manosphere advice. I’m going to keep track of which one gets which responses and see if there are any interesting trends.

    I want to give the manosphere as fair a shake as possible. I know the broad outlines of what I should do– feminine, non-slutty, with long hair and tasteful makeup– but I don’t know specific advice. What do you recommend? Both advice and links to posts are cool.

    • @ozy

      That experiment sounds hilarious. I hope you are going to do it at a mainstream site, not at Queer and Questioning or some such.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    For the record:

    The virgin ADBG (post red-pill, though) did NOT discuss his emotions every other second, escalated to 2nd base by Date Two, did not say he was self-conscious (even though you can be damn sure I was nervous as hell), did not compliment the girl for going out with him, and maybe said she was pretty once.

    I mean, jeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzz.

    This story makes it sound like Sassy wants a reasonably attractive smart guy that drives a motorcycle, has an artsy side, and likes to do his own thing.

    That doesn’t seem extreme at all. Well, maybe the motorcycle part. Those things be dangerous.

    • This story makes it sound like Sassy wants a reasonably attractive smart guy that drives a motorcycle, has an artsy side, and likes to do his own thing.

      Hipster love.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    Men move on a much faster time table than women. There is anecdotal and research-backed evidence, including from Helen Fisher, that men fall in love faster than women do. But she has to inspire that love early on with openness, intensity and reciprocity.

    If she drags her feet too much, that makes the man second-guess as well, and so it’s a very delicate balance. I’d say two weeks to a month is probably the timeframe for the intense discovery phase. Men don’t like to be kept waiting for a long time unless they have no other options, or unless circumstances necessitate it.

    This.

    Where a lot of women miscalculate and totally spoil it for themselves is when there’s a potential good thing going, and she starts to fall back into trying to play “hard to get” or trying to retroactively go in to coquette mode. That shit just doesn’t work with any dude with actual self-worth. I can tell you that in my mind, when she does this, I’m thinking, “Is this what I get for making this relationship possible? Peace!” There are two parties involved in creating a good relationship, and any woman who thinks the effort should come mostly from the male side to give her a relationship that she probably wants (and needs) more than he does, she’s going to be disappointed over and over, except with someone who she probably wouldn’t really be interested in.

    • @BroHamlet

      Where a lot of women miscalculate and totally spoil it for themselves is when there’s a potential good thing going, and she starts to fall back into trying to play “hard to get” or trying to retroactively go in to coquette mode.

      That’s good advice. I do want to make clear that I really don’t think Grace has done this. She’s not playing games, she’s just fed up with the late night texts and lack of follow through for a more substantial plan.

      Personally, I’m still not at all sure this guy’s a catch. Since most people are guessing either asshole or clueless chump, I can’t imagine she is missing much. They just don’t sound compatible.

  • Sassy6519

    This story makes it sound like Sassy wants a reasonably attractive smart guy that drives a motorcycle, has an artsy side, and likes to do his own thing.

    Do Want!!!

    If he were rich, well hung, and also the life of the party , I’d be in heaven.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    What are we considering “well hung”?

  • @ Sassy
    I’ll be on the look out for any such unicorn men in Chicago and send them your way. Just be careful, they might cause your little corner of Ohio to implode.

  • sweetsue

    @Think Like A Man 318

    Randians:) followers of Ann Rynd 🙂 that took a moment to click – seriously though I would like to think that even Randians need a moment to check if they want a marathon or a sprint ONR or 3 day NSA

    “Not if she knows she just wants sex. Like Jayne above, sometimes women just want some “sexy time”.” True but even then doesn’t she need to see if this is an impulse or a mind altering rush of lust that will pass or maybe Randians do not think much they just act – have no point of reference – hence the knows herself – merely means is making a conscious decision

  • Sassy6519

    @ Leap of a Beta

    I’ll be on the look out for any such unicorn men in Chicago and send them your way. Just be careful, they might cause your little corner of Ohio to implode.

    Haha! Thanks.

    @ A Definite Beta Guy

    What are we considering “well hung”?

    I like guys who are at least 7″(the sweet spot is between 7″ and 9″). It’s not for every woman, but I like it.

    @ Susan Walsh

    Hipster love.

    He was definitely a hipster of sorts, which I liked. I’m a sucker for a good looking male hipster.

    Even if they don’t look like hipsters, I like men who have an appreciation of the arts in general.

    • I like guys who are at least 7″(the sweet spot is between 7″ and 9″). It’s not for every woman, but I like it.

      7.5% of men have a penis longer than 7 inches.

  • @ Sassy
    Curious, what do you think of most hipster guys? As a man I generally find them horribly effeminate for male company.

    Which is ironical, because most of my long term friends view me as their token hipster friend with the long hair and making my living in the arts. Then they’re surprised by my words/actions, which amuses me to no end.

  • OffTheCuff

    Not fooled, Oz. Your’e doing this… for a blog dedicated to people dissatisfied with gender roles. Conflict of interest, and we know your interests. This is like tobacco companies funding studies on the healthy effects of smoking.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Leap of a Beta

    Curious, what do you think of most hipster guys? As a man I generally find them horribly effeminate for male company.

    Which is ironical, because most of my long term friends view me as their token hipster friend with the long hair and making my living in the arts. Then they’re surprised by my words/actions, which amuses me to no end.

    I definitely think a good chunk of hipster men are more effeminate than the average man, but I have met some who have been very masculine and dominant. I like the dominant ones more.

    I was discussing my love of dominant men with my sister over the weekend, and I think I’ve finally pinpointed why I like them so much.

    I consider myself a relatively dominant female/alpha female. I’ve described myself as somewhat of a wild horse in another thread. I’m not mean or masculine, but I am assertive and hard to tame with a healthy dose of confidence. Whenever I meet a man who is dominant in his surroundings/social group, my body instinctively takes on a more submissive role. It shocks me whenever it happens. I’ve met men who have suddenly made me want to be the most domestic housewife ever, simply from the aura emanating from them. It’s hard to explain.

    Whenever I really like a guy, the chemistry is through the roof. Part of that chemistry stems from his ability to produce the giddy schoolgirl feeling within me. Suddenly, I want to cook for him. I want to fetch him slippers and give him a scotch when he enters the door. I want to cater to him. I did all the aforementioned things with the alpha ex that I have described often. He was masculine to the point of me being in awe of him, to an extent.

    If I’m falling all over myself to be a dainty wilting flower around a guy, and feeling the desire to submit myself to him, I know that the attraction is real. It’s just rare for me to meet a man that elicits that response in me.

  • Alias

    Herb:
    “Women complain men expect that checking off something like the 10 vegetables list a post a go that we should just get sex from women looking for a “good guy”. They complain men don’t know they need to provide more specific to that woman and that a given woman might just not want them.

    Yet, the low level, “hey, my N is low so I’m quality” (note one vegetable, not 10, not even 8 like V8) is the female counterpart. Being pleasant, willing to cook, will stand by me when things are tough, and other qualities make her a quality woman.

    Low N is just a good start.”
    ———-

    > You’re on the right track and this is why so many people end up with bad matches because their standards are so low.

    If Grace is a non-promiscuous girl, then she doesn’t just screen out for cads (his values), but she needs to demonstrate her qualities to him and then screen for whether she’s what Brady wants and vice versa (compatibility).
    I and some other posters already mentioned that she should have cut out the wishy washy/flaky behavior from the beginning (both hers and his). She doesn’t have to be a witch about it, but all of this guessing and playing around is unnecessary.

  • @ Sassy
    Ok, glad my perceptions weren’t off on the hipster guys. I haven’t run into any dominant ones, but I haven’t looked hard for them like it sounds like you have.

    As for your submissiveness….. Damn. Thats good stuff. I was on track to getting that with a current girl I’m dating, but suddenly she stopped being submissive and following my lead while also closing up shop on physicality and emotions for the last two weeks. She became a a cold, unattractive fortress that I have no desire to pursue. If it doesn’t change by the end of the week…..

    NEXT

  • SayWhaat

    I think it’s hilarious that Zach and Jason can’t agree on Brady’s intentions. Seems like even hardened players can’t tell the difference between an Imposter Asshole and a True Cad. 😛

    Seriously though, if even you guys are disagreeing about something like this, what makes you think the average girl is more capable of this kind of discernment? *smh*

    • @Say Whaat

      Seriously though, if even you guys are disagreeing about something like this, what makes you think the average girl is more capable of this kind of discernment? *smh*

      Steel on target!

  • Bob

    Lol, my sister dates hipsters and is always complaining about how they do too many drugs and are a-holes who sleep around. Have fun with that. This site focuses way too much on the stupid alpha beta crap.

  • SayWhaat

    Hope re: Girl Game

    I’m interested in learning more about opening up through escalating emotionally. The problem is, I think most women who do open up find that they are emotionally investing as well, which can lead to irrational decision-making/hamsterwheeling if the guy turns out to be a rotten egg. : /

    That being said I’m still interested in learning more about proper emotional escalation. I get that a girl’s gotta be soft and sweet, but there has to be more to it than that (e.g. you can’t just tell a supplicating guy to grow a spine, you gotta tell him to practice making eye-contact with others first). We need specifics on the behavior.

  • SayWhaat

    I was on track to getting that with a current girl I’m dating, but suddenly she stopped being submissive and following my lead while also closing up shop on physicality and emotions for the last two weeks. She became a a cold, unattractive fortress that I have no desire to pursue.

    Add more comfort traits.

  • SayWhaat

    Hope, just read your post: http://www.rosehope.com/what-makes-men-fall-in-love/

    This is exactly what I’m talking about. The pointer about talking about his past (his childhood, hurts and pains, etc.) was a very good one.

    We need more pointers like that.

  • Alias

    @ Hope, Ted D

    Yes, technology will catapult you into an emotional connection quickly- both good and bad.
    I know several couples who have ended up in serious but very rocky relationships because they couldn’t break the emotional bond but who are all wrong for each other and struggle for it.
    If people are being sincere, then it works.
    If they’re good at painting themselves differently than they truly are or if they’re bad at judging character from mere words- then it will work too- but then it falls apart.

    An alternative might be to meet up for activities that allow for conversation, but aren’t as intimidating as having to sit face-to-face and also where there isn’t total privacy so that they can deter the level of physical escalation.

  • Men move on a much faster time table than women. There is anecdotal and research-backed evidence, including from Helen Fisher, that men fall in love faster than women do. But she has to inspire that love early on with openness, intensity and reciprocity.

    Yeah is the answer to the female rule (supposedly) that a woman knows in five seconds if she will sleep with a guy she just met a man will know fast if the women falls into the slut pile or the relationship pile…dating is brutal it seems.

    Not fooled, Oz. Your’e doing this… for a blog dedicated to people dissatisfied with gender roles.

    Yeah I don’t see a conclusion that won’t end up in “Traditional gender roles suck!” if she makes an add selling how easy for sex she is, she will get a lot of responses just from guys desperate to “tap that” if the one with the more feminine traits gets answered the most it will a “proof that men are shallow and we need more feminism to teach them right.”
    But I’m willing to give Ozy the benefit of the doubt. So Ozy tell us how do you plan to control for confirmation bias and what is the hypothesis in this “experiment”? share some details to see if this is actually worth helping or not.

  • ExNewYorker

    “I think it’s hilarious that Zach and Jason can’t agree on Brady’s intentions. Seems like even hardened players can’t tell the difference between an Imposter Asshole and a True Cad.”

    Come on, you know that we have a story filtered through several degrees of indirection. It’s not surprising there would be differences of opinions. If there’s additional info on the story, or we hear more from the guy himself, it might be apparent which choice it is.

    • Update on Grace and Brady:

      Brady asked Grace if she wanted to meet for dinner tonight. She happily accepted. At 6:30 he texted this:

      “Held up at work, don’t really know when I’ll be home. Why don’t you plan on swinging by much later.”

      Grace is preparing to unload. She is done. She says that he is either a total dick or a total tool, and either way, she’s not interested.

  • An alternative might be to meet up for activities that allow for conversation, but aren’t as intimidating as having to sit face-to-face and also where there isn’t total privacy so that they can deter the level of physical escalation.

    This reminds me of something like some form of ritual to get to know a person before investing on the wrong one too much….I’m probably imagining we surely wouldn’t had gotten rid of something so brilliantly simple to help with gender relationships. 😉

  • Ted D

    Alias – I’m not saying text messages can or should replace actual face time. In my case, it allowed is to have more traditional fun in person and cover all the deep and heavy stuff when we weren’t together. I had my children to take care of and she had hers, so the ability to chat any time over text really helped us get to know each other.

    And of course it only works of both people are being honest. But that isn’t any different in person. For me there is a lot of ground to cover from first date to commitment, and it allowed me to cover that ground in record time. I don’t like talking on the phone, but I like texting as a means of communicating while doing other things. It allows me to do something productive and carry on a conversation in a way phone calls can’t. Talking on the phone takes all my concentration. Texting doesn’t.

  • @ SayWhaat
    “Add more comfort traits.”

    I did. I consider myself currently fairly well calibrated, so I’m starting to consider that this girl is just emotionally and mentally ‘unavailable’ (by which I mean damaged).

    For instance – when she got back from a week and a half trip to see her sis for her birthday I chilled with her. Asked basic questions, some light teasing, making sure to keep dominant body posture, tone of voice, but making it clear through my words and actions that it was good to have her back in town.

    When I told her to “Get her cute ass over here” in a playful, dominant way to sit in her bed while we watch Game of Thrones, her not wearing pants, the literal words out of her mouth were, “You’re so clingy, like a 13 year old girl.” And not in a playful way, but in a very insulting manner.

    Considering I hadn’t talked to her in the two days since she’d been back in town, hadn’t been fawning over her at all, haven’t opened up more emotionally than she has… In short, been fairly dominant/aloof physically and emotionally, I was blown away by this cold fortress suddenly saying texting a couple times a week and enjoying her next to me while watching TV was too clingy.

    Like I said, I think the girl has issues. She’s on her way out.

  • SayWhaat

    If there’s additional info on the story, or we hear more from the guy himself, it might be apparent which choice it is.

    We don’t need additional info. We have all the info that is currently being processed through Grace’s mind:

    FACT: He has only texted to meet up after 11pm.
    FACT: He continued this behavior over a few months.
    FACT: He just ended a relationship.

    HUS female regulars, or even just women who have keen insight into the male mind, would rightfully doubt Brady’s intentions given the above.

    (However, those kind of women are a minority, are they not? 😛 And even they have to ponder whether or not he’s an asshole or just clueless.)

  • SayWhaat

    When I told her to “Get her cute ass over here” in a playful, dominant way to sit in her bed while we watch Game of Thrones, her not wearing pants, the literal words out of her mouth were, “You’re so clingy, like a 13 year old girl.” And not in a playful way, but in a very insulting manner.

    Yeah, that’s weird. Drive on.

  • Sassy6519

    When I told her to “Get her cute ass over here” in a playful, dominant way to sit in her bed while we watch Game of Thrones, her not wearing pants, the literal words out of her mouth were, “You’re so clingy, like a 13 year old girl.” And not in a playful way, but in a very insulting manner.

    Had I been that girl, I would have loved you saying that to me.

    Clearly, she is a bit odd.

    I’d say cut your losses and drive on if her frigid demeanor doesn’t thaw out soon.

  • Alias

    @ Anacaona, Hope

    Congrats on the baby boys! 😀

    Anacaona
    Yeah, I certainly can’t take credit for reinventing something old.

  • Think Like A Man

    “I think the reason people are being so mean is that they view it as a waste. For a ton of guys, if they spent their 20s with billions of dollars running one of the coolest companies in the world, they’d be converting that into strange, hot p*ssy every night of the week. It’s the ultimate demonstration of High Market Value, and so they feel he got handed the keys to the player kingdom and essentially said “no thanks”. That’s why guys are upset about it.”

    But here’s the point Zach. A nerdy young man who with his brain power alone builds a multi-billion dollar business is of a different intellectual caliber and psychological makeup than a guy who doesn’t do so, or a guy who makes a billion bucks off of his body, like an athelete, or his street rhyming skills like a rapper. The priorities will obviously be different.

    The bitter criticizers of this young lady’s looks are just disappointed that not all Asian women fit the preconceived notions of their fantasies and are actually, you know, real people with flaws just like the rest of us. They figure, “if a billionaire like El Zucko cannot manage to nab a hot babe, what hope have we?” Or worse, “if a billionaire like El Zucko can actually open his heart enough to fall in love and commit publicly to a woman who valued him before he was rich, then we are gonna be total gonners if we are ever lucky enough to have a woman so much as smile at us”.

    • @ThinkLikeaMan

      “if a billionaire like El Zucko can actually open his heart enough to fall in love and commit publicly to a woman who valued him before he was rich, then we are gonna be total gonners if we are ever lucky enough to have a woman so much as smile at us”.

      This has the ring of a poignant truth.

  • @ SayWhaat and Sassy

    Hah. Thanks for the back up. I left part way through that night, not staying over like I had intended to. Now, three days later, she’s already got the last initiation in communication from me when I asked her what she was doing tomorrow, telling her I wanted to celebrate getting two good jobs in Theatre for the fall by her putting on sexy underwear, a matching dress, and that I’d take her to Gino’s pizza, icecream, a walk on the beach, and wine. Goal of balancing the dominance of the first with some romance while making my intentions for the night clear.

    Her response? “I can’t, I’m going with my married friends to Ohio the next day.”

    Yeah. Definitely done.

  • Alias

    Ted D:
    “” I’m not saying text messages can or should replace actual face time. In my case, it allowed is to have more traditional fun in person and cover all the deep and heavy stuff when we weren’t together. I had my children to take care of and she had hers, so the ability to chat any time over text really helped us get to know each other.”
    ——
    > Got it.

    Ted D:
    “And of course it only works of both people are being honest. But that isn’t any different in person. ”
    ——-
    People can still be dishonest but in person you have more cues to go by (body language/tone of voice/facial expressions). If you meet them in their element, you get to watch how they interact with others. If you can get other people on your side to meet them too- more useful input- the more input the better.

    Ted D:
    “For me there is a lot of ground to cover from first date to commitment, and it allowed me to cover that ground in record time. I don’t like talking on the phone, but I like texting as a means of communicating while doing other things. It allows me to do something productive and carry on a conversation in a way phone calls can’t. Talking on the phone takes all my concentration. Texting doesn’t.”
    ———
    There was no texting/internet when my husband and I met.
    (hides under a rock)

  • @ Alias
    “There was no texting/internet when my husband and I met.
    (hides under a rock)”

    Any dinosaurs under there? They’d likely have a thing to teach today’s men and women on how to communicate.

  • Sassy6519

    “Held up at work, don’t really know when I’ll be home. Why don’t you plan on swinging by much later.”

    Her response? “I can’t, I’m going with my married friends to Ohio the next day.”

    It seems like someone should set up Brady and Leap’s chick. They’ll be a match in flaky heaven.

  • Travis

    @Hope,

    “Lots of women walk around with their guards and walls up, and that’s not conducive to letting a man love her. I’ve known girls who don’t do much at all to inspire secret admirers, and they’re not always the 9s and 10s in looks. They all exude this loving aura and energy that men find irresistible.

    The bitch shield for the super hot girls attracts player and non-serious types, while the sweetness and kindness attract men who are searching for love. The thing she has to do once she’s attracted the guys is get to know them better and not open her legs in the meanwhile. It’s a better strategy than shutting out the good guys and getting hit on by the most brazen and fearless players.

    Another girl game tip; the “beta” stuff a lot of men do is what those men find very attractive if a cute girl was doing it. Take Sassy’s post for example. A man would find it adorable if the girl blushed during the kiss and said she was nervous, if she told him that she felt honored to be there with him, and that he was so good looking and made her feel uncertain.

    The key to getting inside a man’s heart is softness, not hardness. In Eastern philosophy the water’s strength is in its flowing and ability to get inside small crevices and overwhelm. Emotions are compared to water, while logic and reason are compared to rock. You can’t beat a man into loving you, but you can use your warm softness to melt him. That’s the essence of girl game, not combat, manipulation or getting the upper hand.”

    Wow. I wish I could force every woman to read this. EXCELLENT advice. IMO if the goal of “guy” game is to get laid, and “girl” game is to get commitment, just based on this post alone I’d put Hope up there as the female equivalent of Roissy or Roosh. THIS is how you get a guy to fall for you…

  • @ Sassy
    “It seems like someone should set up Brady and Leap’s chick. They’ll be a match in flaky heaven.”

    Hahaha. Laughed so hard I spilled coffee on the table when I gave it a good pounding, not thinking of the newly filled coffee cup I had just set down.

  • Think Like A Man

    “1. Thou shalt cultivate a feminine demeanor and bearing. Thou shalt not try to be, look like, or act like a man.”

    Here’s the thing. What has to be consciously cultivated is not natural. In default mode we humans act neither feminine nor masculine but rather just human. Think of human behaviour as a spectrum with behaviours traditionally considered masculine on one and the opposite feminine behaviours on the other. In our daily lives most of us fall in the middle and just carry on normally with our routines, waking, working, doing chores, relaxing etc. That’s why men are sometimes so surprised to hear women say “man up” or express more assertive, even aggressive behaviours. They don’t normally trend toward that end of the spectrum. Same with women. The problem with men and women consciously cultivating what are perceived to be more masculine or more feminine behaviours is that it can become burdensome to always be on alert for this. Most of us just want to be able to relax and be ourselves with a significant other, not always have to step up and game them or otherwise monitor our behaviour around them. In the beginning to attract someone I can see how this can be helpful but to have to consistently be conscious of acting a certain way for the rest of the relationship is not a relationship most of us would find rewarding. We want to be loved for who we are, all of us.

    “And don’t forget the comments about hot babes being more selective and less likely to be promiscuous.”

    “That’s straight from the evo psychology literature, not a matter of opinion. Just good old economics, really.”

    Evo psychology is not hard science. Basically the perception is that exceptional women who have sex with exceptional men are somehow better than average women having sex with both average men and the occasional exceptional man that she can manage to bang.

    Its a double standard between two different looking women, that’s all.

    • Basically the perception is that exceptional women who have sex with exceptional men are somehow better than average women having sex with both average men and the occasional exceptional man that she can manage to bang.

      Not better, just in a stronger market position to get commitment from the most desirable men. It is what it is. We can’t all be one percenters. Fretting over that is pointless and not conducive to happiness in life.

  • @Susan
    Maybe we are all misjudging Brady, he clearly wants her…. late at night maybe he is a Cinderella vampire: only sparkles at midnight :p

    • @Anacaona

      That’s funny – I laughingly suggested to Grace he might be a vampire. That’s about the only justification I can think of for his behavior.

  • SayWhaat

    telling her I wanted to celebrate getting two good jobs in Theatre for the fall by her putting on sexy underwear, a matching dress, and that I’d take her to Gino’s pizza, icecream, a walk on the beach, and wine. Goal of balancing the dominance of the first with some romance while making my intentions for the night clear.

    That sounds like 100% Alpha and 0% Beta to me. She probably picked up on the latter and cut her losses.

    Her response? “I can’t, I’m going with my married friends to Ohio the next day.”

    That could be legit. I had to cancel a few dates earlier this year because I had to suddenly pack my bags and visit my dying grandfather in India. Just saying, you don’t really know.

  • SayWhaat

    Brady is a dick and a tool. Grace was right about him.

    Now is the time to employ “radio silence.” 🙂

  • SayWhaat

    Btw Leap, I’m not saying you shouldn’t have cut your losses, either. I’m just pointing out some plausible things that could have happened. If she was really into you she would have suggested an alternate time to hang out after her trip to Ohio.

  • @ Think like a man
    “They don’t normally trend toward that end of the spectrum. Same with women. The problem with men and women consciously cultivating what are perceived to be more masculine or more feminine behaviours is that it can become burdensome to always be on alert for this.”

    Except that they naturally trend to be much more masculine or feminine than they currently are. Why do you think that, outside of the American Culture, the overwhelming majority of cultures have very similar gender roles to how they were in the US pre-feminism? And that, of the exceptions, the majority of them are found in cultures more heavily influenced by US culture?

    Ask the majority of red pill men how they feel after making these masculine behaviors a part of themselves, their personalities, and how they react subconsciously. I’d bet the majority of them would say that it feels much better and more natural to be more dominant than they were nurtured to be by society. It takes hard, painful process to get there, but so far I feel much better for shrugging off what I was taught to be and instead be what I want to be.

    A confidant, dominant, masculine, successful man.

  • Think Like A Man

    Brady and Grace’s miscommunciations are a common criss-cross in male/female dealings. The best way to cut through it is to state one’s desires directly. Grace had 3 months to do this but she chose not too. I think her ultimatum of “either show more interest or show less” was rude, and if he is even the slightest bit sincere in wanting to really get to know her, might be hurtful as well.

    What has she specifically done to show interest in Brady? There is nothing indicating that she did anything at all in what you’ve shared with us here. I think Brady should cut his losses and move on to a woman with a less priveleged mentality. To be fair she could be a perfectly humble person but nothing indicates that from the info we’ve been given here.

  • SayWhaat

    Actually, I take that bit about “radio silence” back.

    She called him out once, she should call him out again and this time let it be known that she’s done. It’s not like she has anything to lose.

    • @SayWhaat

      She called him out once, she should call him out again and this time let it be known that she’s done. It’s not like she has anything to lose.

      That’s exactly what I said. Give him an earful for disrespecting you. Again. Maybe she’ll leave him in better shape for the next girl, who knows.

  • @ SayWhaat
    Thanks for the perspective.

    I’ve been the one initiating lately, so I’m done with that. If she wants to spend time with me, she can initiate and show actual desire rather than responsive desire when it suites her. I would be interested if she did so. But until then, I’m just going to consider her as having shelved herself into a LJBF zone in terms of how I’ll treat her.

  • Think Like A Man

    “Except that they naturally trend to be much more masculine or feminine than they currently are. Why do you think that, outside of the American Culture, the overwhelming majority of cultures have very similar gender roles to how they were in the US pre-feminism?”

    Explain exactly what you mean by this. In many countries that are percieved by us to have more defined gender roles, economically disadvantaged women are working construction jobs, carrying bricks on their heads while simultaneously menstruating or carrying a child in the womb, which is unheard of here. You will also find men employed in jobs that here would be perceived to be womens’ work, such as sewing and embroidery.

  • Alias

    Leap of Beta:
    “Any dinosaurs under there? They’d likely have a thing to teach today’s men and women on how to communicate.”
    —-

    Nah! They’re all dead!
    Today’s men and women are simply a product of their environment.
    Previous generations had the benefit of good old-fashioned- family/friends intergenerational dinner parties weekly; home-cooked food, soft music in the background, lots of conversation about different topics = lots of practice.
    BTW, I’m 44.

  • Think Like A Man

    “Ask the majority of red pill men how they feel after making these masculine behaviors a part of themselves, their personalities, and how they react subconsciously.”

    If their blogs are anything to go by they are in constant dread that their woman or a future potential mate will dump them as soon as they default back into their natural behaviour. Most of us just want to be who we are and to be loved by somebody for it.

    • If their blogs are anything to go by they are in constant dread that their woman or a future potential mate will dump them as soon as they default back into their natural behaviour. Most of us just want to be who we are and to be loved by somebody for it.

      I agree, there’s a lot of fear simmering just under the surface in the ‘sphere.

      I also agree with your sense of what we all crave. Unconditional love. We may be willing to consider how to change so that someone will love us, but what we all really want is to be loved for who we are.

  • Abbot

    ” you are anything but modern.”

    As if its some sort of positive goal to achieve? Why? It does not benefit men in any way whatsoever.

    This term, “modern,” is absolutely a social construct and invented solely by feminists and used solely by feminists as a tool to shame men to come around to the feminist way of thinking, albeit with no affect on men whatsoever, and it aint working here either. It has never been defined and no one will step up and define it on this site as well…go ahead, try. Therefore, it will be regarded as total bullshit going forward.

  • @ Think Like a Man
    I don’t understand why you would use “economically disadvantaged women and men” as the norm. People will take whatever jobs they can to get a roof over their heads and food in their mouths, obviously. Hard labor is also usually unskilled, allowing the poor to take it as a necessary job. Same with the men entering skilled ‘feminized’ positions and competing for them to put food in front of their families mouths because they’d get paid more for the skilled labor.

    Those behaviors aren’t born of ‘gender roles’ but of desperation and poverty.

    Instead, look to the country’s upper class and middle class. What values do the upper class have in terms of gender roles, how does the middle class perceive/try to emulate them, how do they break those examples, and what ‘dream’ is sold to the middle class to keep them in line/working?

    The idea is to see what is pushed on the society and what roles those people who have a choice choose to fill.

  • Maggie

    @Susan
    ““Held up at work, don’t really know when I’ll be home. Why don’t you plan on swinging by much later.”

    What amazing arrogance! This proves that Brady is not a clueless beta. If he truly were interested all he had to say was “can we make it tomorrow instead?”

    Good for Grace!

  • Think Like A Man

    “I don’t understand why you would use “economically disadvantaged women and men” as the norm.”

    Because they are the norm.

    “Instead, look to the country’s upper class and middle class. ”

    They are not “the norm” in the many countries I have in mind. I again ask you to define what the gender norms are.

  • @ Think like a man
    “If their blogs are anything to go by they are in constant dread that their woman or a future potential mate will dump them as soon as they default back into their natural behaviour. Most of us just want to be who we are and to be loved by somebody for it.”

    You’re again confusing behavior that is brought on by society (a man made social construct that is ANYTHING but natural) with natural behavior determined by genetics.

    You want to behave in a way that is COMFORTABLE for you. Well, sorry but you won’t get sympathy from me. The world is not a comfortable place and we were sold a comfortable lie on how to behave. The men on blogging sites are not ‘afraid to get dumped’ if they revert back to previous uber-beta behavior, they simply know they will. That’s called threat assessment. Seeing the water is rising and learning how to both swim and build a boat.

    To do otherwise is to simply ignore reality while bitching and moaning. Enjoy the water when it slips over your head.

    But the manosphere bloggers feel confident, real, masculine, and assured in the personal growth once they’ve acquired it. They don’t pretend that a woman is anything other than a woman in preference for some romantic dream they were sold growing up. Men and women both are attracted to the reality over the lie and are happier for it.

    Growth is not comfortable. It will not feel good to go through it. It will suck, be painful, and you’ll likely be miserable at several points during the process.

    But it is good for you to grow.

  • Abbot

    “I have my limits on “N” also. How that number was achieved is important.”

    Why is it important?

  • @ Think Like a man
    “They are not “the norm” in the many countries I have in mind. I again ask you to define what the gender norms are.”

    I just did. If you chose to ignore my definition, side step my reasoning, reframe the discussion, and in general behave like a troll, then that’s your choice. As such, I’m not going to further lengths to define it, but will simply copy and paste it again.

    “What values do the upper class have in terms of gender roles, how does the middle class perceive/try to emulate them, how do they break those examples, and what ‘dream’ is sold to the middle class to keep them in line/working?

    The idea is to see what is pushed on the society and what roles those people who have a choice choose to fill.”

  • Jon

    @Susan

    No, she definitely wasn’t a virgin (divorced single mom). I’m not sure what she was going on in her head, but it’s good to hear that someone else thinks something was weird about the situation.

  • ozymandias

    OTC: Technically I’m writing an article for Role/Reboot, which isn’t a blog, it’s an online magazine. 🙂 And I do have honor; I will accurately report the responses I get, whichever way it works. Clarisse Thorn, who’ll be editing me, and I both have a history of admitting that PUA is right about some things (although she goes farther than I d0).

    Ana: It’s less of a proper experiment and more of a “I’m curious what’s going to happen here”; I predict however that HUSite Me will get more messages but Honest Me will get more messages from the sort of people I actually like. I plan to report as accurately as possible my results: if it turns out that HUSite Me gets All The Boys and I got messaged by a dude that I’m kicking myself over not being able to date, I’ll report that too. (Hey, if nothing else, it’ll get Role/Reboot hella hits.)

    I actually can correct for the “get messaged by tons of guys looking for sex” issue; since that’s my actual dating profile, I will go out on dates with them, and if they pump and dump me or use me as a fuckbuddy I’ll be aware of this. And you have my word that if it turns out Feminine Me gets deluged in messages, the only conclusion I will come to is “guys seem to prefer Feminine Me, which sucks because I’m not willing to be someone I’m not for a relationship; we can’t know if the cause is biology or society or both.” Because that is actually the accurate conclusion from this data!

  • Think Like A Man

    “The idea is to see what is pushed on the society and what roles those people who have a choice choose to fill.”

    I’m asking for specifics – what exactly is it that is pushed on which societies and what are those roles that people who have a choice choose to fill, across cultures?

  • Think Like A Man

    Ozy, so you’re going to have 3 profiles? HUSite Me, Honest Me and Feminine Me?

    “I’m not willing to be someone I’m not for a relationship”

    Most people would rather not have to. Those who find someone with whom they can completely be themselves and be loved for it are fortunate.

  • Jon

    re: Grace/Brady update

    With all the retards like Brady and the “alpha” guy from the video in the other thread out there, I have to wonder why decent guys have such a hard time…

    I think she was pretty clear about the no booty call thing. How does he respond? By basically saying “I can’t make dinner, how about a booty call instead?” So yeah, he’s either a tool or a dick – I’ve got no argument with that assessment.

    Maggie has it right. A normal guy would have just tried to reschedule.

  • Lokland

    @Susan, 555

    Can you explain what that means to me?
    I can’t seem to puzzle out whether it is good or bad.

    • @Lokland

      I was just responding to TLAM’s comment re Zuckerberg. Here’s the first part:

      The bitter criticizers of this young lady’s looks are just disappointed that not all Asian women fit the preconceived notions of their fantasies and are actually, you know, real people with flaws just like the rest of us. They figure, “if a billionaire like El Zucko cannot manage to nab a hot babe, what hope have we?”

      I think he correctly identified why the manosphere has been so hard on the couple.

  • “I’m asking for specifics – what exactly is it that is pushed on which societies and what are those roles that people who have a choice choose to fill, across cultures?”

    Asian cultures – Women are taught how to cook, maintain a household, be feminine, and appreciate the man who provides for his family. Men go and do the providing.

    Spanish cultures – the same
    African cultures – the same
    Middle eastern cultures – the same

    American Culture – You go grrrrrrl career girls taught she can provide for herself as much and better than a man. No cooking. No femininity. No maintenance of a household. They are not taught to appreciate any man willing to do these things for them, but instead treat them with disdain and be more than happy to divorce rape them. Men are taught that this happened because they didn’t prove their love well enough and that they should try harder to be more effeminate and in touch with their feelings. Life should all be one giant romantic comedy.

    British culture – the same
    Canadian Culture – the same

    Considering that it is Western Culture trying to over-right the traditional family structure and gender roles that humanity evolved with, I don’t get why you’re finding this so hard to grasp. This has been the norm for the majority of humanity for the majority of our time spent on earth. Departures from this norm are rare and usually conditional based on environmental necessities such as you describe – like poverty. Others can be small, isolated conditions for individual tribes, communities, small countries, etc.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Sounds like Brady is trying to save face, actually. He thinks he essentially got bitched out, and now it seems like he’s giving in totally to her demands without anything in return, which is going to piss him off, because he’s a bit of a drama queen.

    So he’s trying to push it back late again.

    That’s my most reasonable guess.

    Leap. Your girl. I would run away screaming. No worries, Chicago has lots of pretty girls, I just met one today.

  • Ferret123

    Hope is right on her list.

    If you think about movies where it focuses on romance for men, the women have those qualities. They are bubbly, fun and supportive. They have a positive outlook that inspiries the male protagonist.

    Movies like:
    Elizabethtown, Garden State, etc.

  • Think Like A Man

    “If you think about movies where it focuses on romance for men, the women have those qualities. They are bubbly, fun and supportive. They have a positive outlook that inspiries the male protagonist. ”

    Movies are fantasy. Having to be bubbly, fun and positive all the day or otherwise risk losing your partner would be an unbearable burden to live with. It instills dread.

  • Ferret123

    Movies are fantasy.

    Definitely.

    I was just saying that’s the ideal woman to a guy. Not that it’s reality.

  • Elizabethtown, Garden State, etc.

    Interestingly enough those movies don’t sell as well as Rom-Coms I did loved Elizabethtown but is like The Fountain. I’m the only one of my friends that saw it 🙁

  • Think Like A Man

    “I was just saying that’s the ideal woman to a guy. Not that it’s reality.”

    If human civilization is to continue, we will have to grow up, accept each other for who we are and stop living inside our idealized fantasies. Externally assigned roles, fake voice pitches, games and dread are not the way to go.

  • GudEnuf

    Ozy: Are you going to take different pictures of yourself? One in the conservative style and one in the slutty style?

  • Think Like A Man

    “This has been the norm for the majority of humanity for the majority of our time spent on earth. Departures from this norm are rare and usually conditional based on environmental necessities such as you describe – like poverty.”

    The norm for the vast majority of historic humanity has been work. Hard work. A departure from that was available only for the aristocracy and small number of industrialized western women in a new thing called “middle class” post WWII.

    1950s America has never been the global norm and still is not, and will likely never be.

    • The norm for the vast majority of historic humanity has been work. Hard work. A departure from that was available only for the aristocracy and small number of industrialized western women in a new thing called “middle class” post WWII.

      I was discussing this with a friend a couple of days ago. I suggested that neurosis is a luxury in a way. Or at least, catering to it is. We’ve got our physical needs totally met in the U.S. – an unthinkable standard of living for most of history. Even the poorest country in the world is healthier today than the healthiest country in 1810.

      Check this out:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

  • Ferret123

    “Interestingly enough those movies don’t sell as well as Rom-Coms I did loved Elizabethtown but is like The Fountain.”

    Those movies were like a Rom-Com for both men and women. I think that type of movie is little more rare.

    I loved Claire (Kirsten Dunst) in Elizabethtown. She really is the perfect woman. Her attitude alone made her so attractive. Always optimistic and encouraging.

    I think she really defines the type of personality that men actually do fall in love with, it’s the female version of ‘Confidence’.

  • @Ozy
    I don’t get it, if no matter the results you won’t change a thing about yourself, what is the point of doing the profile experiment?

  • ozymandias

    Think Like A Man: HUS Me and Feminine Me are the same me. 😛 I’m fairly butchtastic when left to my own devices.

    GudEnuf: I’m going to take one dressed as myself (i.e. short boyish hair, glasses, baggy black shirt with webcomic joke on it) and one dressed as per HUS recommendations (my girlfriend’s realistic long-haired wig, a skirt/dress, tasteful makeup…?). Neither will be particularly slutty, except insofar as the really serious sluts all wear baggy black shirts with webcomic jokes on.

    Ana: Partially for the article, and partially because I’m hella curious. (Which is also, incidentally, why lying about my results would be silly; it wouldn’t help satisfy my curiosity.) Would being feminine, non-slutty, and the rest of it get me more guys, or a higher caliber of guys, or guys who are more likely to subcommunicate a desire for a relationship?

  • Think Like A Man

    “American Culture – You go grrrrrrl career girls taught she can provide for herself as much and better than a man. No cooking. No femininity. No maintenance of a household. They are not taught to appreciate any man willing to do these things for them, but instead treat them with disdain and be more than happy to divorce rape them. ”

    You mean men cooking and maintaining the household for the woman, or for himself or for both or for the family? Cooking and maintaining one’s environment in a decent manner is what most people do upon reaching adulthood and moving out of our parents’ home. I don’t see any reason why this must be appreciated as if it were anything unique by either sex as its just what people do to survive.

    If you mean cooking for the woman in the dating process, such as inviting her over to your place and treating her to a homecooked meal, that is a nice date and should be appreciated.

  • GudEnuf

    Ozy: That sounds like a great project. Kudos for having the courage!

  • Susan said:

    “Fair point, but Hope is recommending Grace say this after spending very little time with Brady. It’s the dating that she misses, because she wants to get to know him. Perhaps she should express sincere interest in getting to know him better, confess her strong attraction, etc. There’s no way she could guarantee compatibility at that point, though.”
    _______________________________

    Calibration Is King

  • ADBG said:

    “What are we considering “well hung”?”
    __________________________________

    When she says,”Give me ten inches and make it hurt,” fuck her twice and punch her in the face.

  • SayWhaat said:

    “She called him out once, she should call him out again and this time let it be known that she’s done. It’s not like she has anything to lose.”

    Susan said:

    “That’s exactly what I said. Give him an earful for disrespecting you. Again. Maybe she’ll leave him in better shape for the next girl, who knows.”
    ____________________________________

    I think she should make sure he’s not a victim of head trauma or hypoxic brain injury. I’ve seen some seriously dumb shit in my day, but this is a step beyond mere aggressive stupidity. This is either pathology or distilled essence of retard.

    Maybe he’s a robot sent from the future to stop the spread of paying attention.

    Is she sure that guy speaks English?

    • This is either pathology or distilled essence of retard.

      Yeah, I’m curious for the epilogue on this one. AFAIK, he hasn’t actually explained himself or his behavior. Nor has he said what he’s looking for. She said she is going to simply ask him, “What is it that you want from me?” She can’t square his persistence with his apparent disinterest in actually spending time together.

  • Think like a Man said:

    “If their blogs are anything to go by they are in constant dread that their woman or a future potential mate will dump them as soon as they default back into their natural behaviour. Most of us just want to be who we are and to be loved by somebody for it.”
    ____________________________________

    It’s not “their natural behavior”. What you’re seeing is a few guys trying to overcome some really, really shitty mental programming foisted on them at a formative age then compounded by evil/self-interested/deluded assholes in society at large.

    Leap of a Beta gets it fuggin-ay correctamundo in his fine post #548.

  • Michael Singer

    The premise of the article is skewed…..

    I.
    “Very attractive women get a lot of attention from cads and players.”
    – Very true. Attractive women ( men too) receive a lot of attention.
    Physically attractive is in the minority and a “attractive” physically attractive person is even a smaller minority.

    II.
    “The highest value “target” is a super hot babe who isn’t promiscuous.”
    Though I dont have a percentage – allow me to suggest this the single digit or even a fraction of 1 %.
    A even smaller percentage is “attractive” physically attractive person who isn’t promiscuous….

    III.
    “By and large, though, the women with the highest sexual market value will demand commitment (of emotion or resources) in exchange for sex. ”
    – This is a direct contradiction of II ( ie “super hot babe who isn’t promiscuous.”)

    Couple of observations:
    – If one isn’t currently a “high value target” – then the article doesn’t apply to you and if one hasn’t figured it out then……..
    – If one is a “high value target” – then they are there for a pretty good reason know the discipline it takes along with the character, morals, integrity, values, self respect, upbringing and the article is of no value since it doesn’t address the factors what it took to become “high value target” and to stay that way.

    No matter how much gold plating is done to a turd – it is still a turd. Gold plating adds no value and is deceptive at best.

  • Ozy, please be careful. If you lived anywhere near me I’d frog-march you down to the nearest Krav class and keep you there for six months before turning you loose.

    I know I’m an uncool, fuddy-duddy capitalist for saying this, but I hope you keep an eye toward monetizing this. You’re going to be giving up an awful lot – permanently – if this little experiment gets popular. At least get paid for it – lots of other people will.

  • Lavazza

    “I also agree with your sense of what we all crave. Unconditional love. We may be willing to consider how to change so that someone will love us, but what we all really want is to be loved for who we are.”

    I think most people would be content with “clear conditional love”, meaning that as long as you do/are ABC and don’t get XYZ, there will be love.

    My yoga teacher says that you can never promise to love somebody, only not to hurt the other. But even the second is a too high standard for most people.

  • Abbot

    “I think most people would be content with “clear conditional love”, meaning that as long as you do/are ABC and don’t get XYZ, there will be love.”

    When commitment-minded people meet in the US, women are focused on male ABC and its been that way for centuries. The new trend for men, sadly, is having to expend effort to ferret out female XYZ.

  • Richard Aubrey

    How much interest is there when the effort is manifested by casual texts at a time when there’s likely nothing else going on in his life? Texts which won’t lead to any action, unless she takes it.
    If all it takes is some thumb work–possibly while sitting on the toilet–or waiting for the coffee to heat, how does that show persistence in anything but a mild interest in keeping a low level of something or other going? At his choice of tempo and intensity.
    If I were to text the local weatherman, ribbing him that it rained harder than he said or something, twice a day, that wouldn’t make me a budding meteorologist. It would mean I have little going on in my life.

    Having said that….
    Where does beta and pedestalization come from? Who started it? Who maintains it? What’s the point? Who corrects those who go alpha as assholes?
    If it’s such a bad idea, why is it promoted to the extent that the red pill goes down so hard?

    • @Richard A

      If I were to text the local weatherman, ribbing him that it rained harder than he said or something, twice a day, that wouldn’t make me a budding meteorologist. It would mean I have little going on in my life.

      Exactly. I’m all for people meeting one another halfway, women initiating, etc. But anything more than an occasional text on Grace’s part is out of step with the level of effort he’s made.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    7.5% of men have a penis longer than 7 inches.

    Really, I thought 7″ was average.

    Well, carry on then.

  • Ted D

    TLaM – “Having to be bubbly, fun and positive all the day or otherwise risk losing your partner would be an unbearable burden to live with. “

    That is EXACTLY how I feel about the idea of having to “game” my SO/Wife every day of my life to keep her happy. I’m all for modifying my bad behaviors to minimize the loss of attraction, but I really see changing how I behave TO her as a deceitful attempt to manipulate her emotions. If I have to do that, then she doesn’t really want to be with me, she wants to be with someone that doesn’t exist. To me, there is a huge difference between learning about game theory and using that information to make better decisions, and using that same information to essentially swindle someone into bed or a relationship. I have no respect for anyone that has to use snake oil sales tactics to get what they want from a woman.

  • Herb

    @Ted D

    TLaM – “Having to be bubbly, fun and positive all the day or otherwise risk losing your partner would be an unbearable burden to live with. “

    That is EXACTLY how I feel about the idea of having to “game” my SO/Wife every day of my life to keep her happy. I’m all for modifying my bad behaviors to minimize the loss of attraction, but I really see changing how I behave TO her as a deceitful attempt to manipulate her emotions. If I have to do that, then she doesn’t really want to be with me, she wants to be with someone that doesn’t exist.

    Thank you.

    If a woman are going to demand constant Game to get tingles to be in a relationship you’d better be perky all the damn time, honey.

  • .this is Jen

    Dogsquat

    Youslayme!

  • Ted D

    Herb – “If a woman are going to demand constant Game to get tingles to be in a relationship you’d better be perky all the damn time, honey.”

    Hell no! To me that isn’t even close. If I have to actively and constantly “game” a women, she better be bringing perky, bubbly, hot, sexy, sweet, nurturing, demure, charming, and enticing. She better look her best anytime she is with me. She will have to cook, and clean, and take care of shopping on her own time. She will need to always be in great physical shape. She must be sexual available to me at all times, and participate in all sexual activity with zeal and lustful exuberance. There will be no debate regarding any decisions to be made, because I will do what I want when I want without regard to her feelings on the matter.

    the short version: If I have to game constantly, I expect a very specific product from my mate. Not a person, but a role to be filled. Because to me, gaming her is putting me in a role, and not seeing me for who I truly am.

    Of course I’m not talking about inner game stuff. That is 100% my responsibility to resolve. I’m fully capable of fixing my own shit. I just don’t believe it is fair for someone to expect me to fix theirs as well, or even worse, find “game” to work my way past them. I truly understand that some of this stuff is simply natural wiring. I have the same issues though, and I’m managing to keep them in check. Every single man that remains monogamous is fighting their natural urge to sex up any number of women they see daily. For some that task is easy, for others it is a struggle. I expect that for women there are similar drives (hypergamy) and I don’t see why women cannot be responsible for handling that on their own as well. THAT is why I see promiscuity as a character flaw. Because a person of character lives their entire life by that integrity, not just the pieces that are easy to control. Sure, it is damn hard to resist natural urges, but that is exactly what builds character in a person.

    But instead what we see in the ‘sphere is guys telling other guys how to “work the system” to get what they want. It is a band-aid at best, and deceitful manipulation at worst. They are promoting that instead of teaching women how to control their own desires and urges, that men simply utilize those to get what they want. To me it makes no difference if “what they want” is 100 bangs, or a single life long relationship. The fact is, if it was done using overt manipulation, it doesn’t matter if it was for the greater good or not. The ends does not justify the means, and at least to me the way something is done is often as important if not more important than the actual result. Personally I would never be proud of any success I achieved by such tactics. There is no pride in tricking people into doing what you want.

    In the end man, I’ve felt most of my life that I didn’t really belong to the world at large. I don’t feel like I relate well to most people, and I struggle to understand why they do the things they do to themselves and each other. I really don’t feel like asking people to be a little self aware and responsible for their own behavior is too much to ask, but clearly the vast majority doesn’t agree. It doesn’t feel good to admit to yourself that you are flawed, and if it doesn’t feel good it just isn’t worth it for most people it seems.

    Damn JM is much better at being an idealist…

  • Kaikou

    @Hope

    I like your girl game. Do you have any suggestions for this dilemma?

    The guy I like is a “I get to know you by you sharing your emotions with me type”

    I am a ” once I get to know you (trust), I share my emotions type”

    How can we both be comfortable? The last time we were together I did emotionally escalate (didn’t know it at the time).

  • Escoffier

    I can see gaming a really hot girl 24/7 because she’s hot and guys like to screw hot girls. It makes a sort of hedonistic sense, morality aside.

    However, being in a marriage or even LTR that requires constant game does not make sense to me. One of the points of sticking with the same girl is that she is there for you when the inevitable lows come. If I have to go home after some wretched experience at work and not only pretend it never happened, but even flip that around and start gaming her the minute I walk in the door, sorry but, do not want. I’d rather be alone.

    • @Escoffier

      If I have to go home after some wretched experience at work and not only pretend it never happened, but even flip that around and start gaming her the minute I walk in the door, sorry but, do not want. I’d rather be alone.

      Amen to that. From a female POV, I don’t want to be on the receiving end of that. Any husband who feels the need to do that is living a secret life of sorts – it’s bound to blow up eventually. I’d much rather have my husband come home, blow off steam, and relax to regain his equilibrium.

      Fake it till you make it is one thing. We all need to be able to do that when we’re learning something. But living one’s life in that way is unpalatable. So much so that I would advise women to avoid any man who is always putting on a good face and acting cocky dominant. That’s a caricature of a real man.

  • Herb

    Because HUS is so often full of gloom some happiness (and a total tangent).

    I walked to work on a fine spring day in Atlanta listening the Bach’s Second Brandenburg Concerto. As I walk my mind dissolved in three things: the fine spring day, one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written, and the fact that as I was listening in the warm sunlight two gold phonograph records were approaching the heliopause (the end of the sun’s influence in many way) and the first piece of music on those records was the very music playing in my headphones.

    That, ladies and gentlemen, can be summed up in three words: life is good.

    As we tear each other up over screwing our way to the ideal male while screwing them over let’s not forget that.

  • Escoffier

    “Every single man that remains monogamous is fighting their natural urge to sex up any number of women they see daily. For some that task is easy, for others it is a struggle. I expect that for women there are similar drives (hypergamy) and I don’t see why women cannot be responsible for handling that on their own as well.”

    Exactly.

    I don’t find it all that difficult to suppress my own base-nature-indiscrimate horniness. I requires effort but it’s not really all that hard. I don’t think my wife has to work all that hard to suppress whatever hypergamous impulses she has either. So maybe we are lucky that way, probably.

    However, that’s really the trick. She does not refrain from cheating simply because I am gaming her all the time, she actually also has good character. I’m sure there are times when she looks at me not at my best and is not in the least bit turned on.

    Similarly, I don’t avoid cheating simply because she is always girl gaming me. Sometimes she is crabby, tired and looks like hell. I don’t use that as an excuse to go fuck other women.

  • Sassy, yeah I love feeling that way as you described around my man, and I also notice it is when he does dominance displays that I become more so. I’m generally fairly shy and quiet, but I do have a somewhat headstrong core as well.

    Susan, I can’t say I’m surprised by the response. Like I said, both people’s “buying temperature” is very low at this point, so flakes are almost inevitable. I don’t believe it’s salvageable, but she shouldn’t be rude. They’re still coworkers, and letting it just cool off is the best course of action now.

  • @ Ted
    “Every single man that remains monogamous is fighting their natural urge to sex up any number of women they see daily. For some that task is easy, for others it is a struggle. I expect that for women there are similar drives (hypergamy) and I don’t see why women cannot be responsible for handling that on their own as well.”

    Yes. And usually they have checks to reinforce them making the right decision that are a part of cultural norms (shaming, marriage laws, etc). But right now there are many cultural and societal norms that ENCOURAGE them to not remain monogamous through no fault divorce, alimony, custody rights, and the baseline of blaming the man for ‘not being man enough’ to keep her around and feeling in love with him 24/7. Obviously he needs to man up.

    Talking about how women should love us men unconditionally gets us no where. Ignoring these problems gets us no where. Blaming women gets us no where.

    The question you should constantly ask yourself in life is what is in your power to make your own happiness. When it comes to women, this answer is learning game.

    If you don’t like that answer, then you don’t like the reality of women in this world. Either don’t have them as a part of your life, put on your blinders and enjoy the women up to the moment of impact, or learn game and deal with the situation infront of you.

    “The fact is, if it was done using overt manipulation, it doesn’t matter if it was for the greater good or not. The ends does not justify the means, and at least to me the way something is done is often as important if not more important than the actual result.”

    Any time any human interacts with another in any real way besides the most monotonous ‘Hi’ as you pass each other on the street, there’s manipulation. It’s an interaction between two humans exchanging ideas, drives, emotions, thoughts, desires.

    Why is that such a bad, evil thing to you? It’s called being human, having an opinion, a world view, and sharing it. Any interaction will show small parts of these things, or larger parts of them for larger interactions of more meaning. By doing so you’ll either repulse people from or draw people towards your worldview, your life, and your sphere of influence.

    Being the ‘best man you can be’ is being an Alpha unafraid to share his world view because doing so improves his life and the life of those around him. He knows he’s a man of quality, of worth, and doesn’t shy away from sharing it with people he cares about or finds interesting if he thinks they’ll also improve his life as he improves theirs.

    • Being the ‘best man you can be’ is being an Alpha unafraid to share his world view because doing so improves his life and the life of those around him. He knows he’s a man of quality, of worth, and doesn’t shy away from sharing it with people he cares about or finds interesting if he thinks they’ll also improve his life as he improves theirs.

      But there are so many alphas around who are not men of quality or worth, who bring unhappiness and misery to women in the pursuit of getting their dicks wet.

      Women need to discourage them from “sharing.”

  • Kaikou

    Hope I wrote you on your blog.

  • “Any interaction will show small parts of these things, or larger parts of them for larger interactions of more meaning.”

    On top of this, before I go into work, I also want to add that any interaction by definition is already expending your time and energy upon another person. Your resources in life are getting less as you work your way towards death.

    So why should someone expect you to give that up without getting anything back for yourself?

    Again, manipulation happens. Losing resources happens. Denying these truths changes nothing. Either use them or shy away from them and let them use you instead. Either choice doesn’t change the reality that faces you.

    • Again, manipulation happens. Losing resources happens. Denying these truths changes nothing. Either use them or shy away from them and let them use you instead.

      It is entirely possible to avoid manipulating people and also to defend oneself against manipulation. I find it rather depressing to have to even type this out, frankly.

      Is there any element of character as important as a determination to avoid exploiting others for one’s own benefit? I would not allow a person like that into my life.

      See: The Golden Rule

  • Sassy, yeah I love feeling that way as you described around my man, and I also notice it is when he does dominance displays that I become more so. I’m generally fairly shy and quiet, but I do have a somewhat headstrong core as well.

    SayWhaat, I hear you on the emotional investment thing, and I had gotten emotionally entangled with the wrong guys before. But at least for me, when nothing physical has happened, I can move on fairly easily. For example when I got mega rejected by a guy I thought had liked me, it stung and remains a memory, but I wasn’t so heartbroken because I didn’t get physically attached.

    I also don’t jump right into the deep end. The escalation steps are generally, from low to high:

    – Ask him about his daily stuff, hobbies, and other general friendly things. Chat about stuff like school, work, weight training, sports, video games, and whatnot. If you don’t know much about something, have him tell you about it. Guys like to appear as the expert on subjects. Don’t be dismissive; be curious. Even if you don’t care about the “guy stuff,” most guys are quite fanatic about it, and you should never say “that’s lame” or hate on his favorite activity. This goes for normal friendly conversations in general, which for me stop here. For instance I have coworkers who love golf, and it’s not my thing. But I just focus on what we do have in common, like technology or gaming.

    – Talk about music, movies, books and other personal preferences. Even a discussion about favorite colors can be illuminating if you dig into “why.” By teenagehood most people have deliberately chosen a set of things that they feel help define themselves. When a girl taps into this and gets interested, like asking him to let you listen to “his music” or watch “his movie,” it triggers something in men that says, “She wants to get to know me and wants to discover my favorites. This doesn’t happen often.” For most men it really doesn’t happen often. It sets the girl apart and makes her special. Don’t dwell on what you hdon’t like. Find what you do like and mention it to him.

    – Ask about his family and friends, and share your own history. Are his parents still together? Does he see his family a lot? Does he get along with his folks? Connect it to the time of year, if you don’t want to sound too nosy and probing. For example, ask what he’s doing for Mother’s Day or Father’s Day, or Thanksgiving, Christmas, or other holidays. Follow up with questions about his childhood, like how much freedom his parents gave him as a teenager, how he rebelled against them (every kid does), how he learned from them, etc. You can find out so much about a person from this.

    – Ask about his romantic past, and again share your own history. Start out light, with silly childhood crushes in elementary and middle school, and work up to more serious relationships. Don’t side with his ex’s, but do ask him why it didn’t work out between them. Ask him his views about romance and relationships, who he thinks has good relationships among those he knows, and what he looks for in a woman. You can also mention the Myers Briggs test and ask him if he’s taken it, and what his type is. As cheesy as it may be, ask him his birthdate and astrological sign. Most guys find it nonsensical, but they know girls who are really interested want to know this kind of thing.

    There’s more, but this is a start. 🙂

  • Escoffier

    Faking it in front of strangers is part of what makes social life bearable. If you always answer honestly to a passing aquiantance’s “How are you?”

    “Well, I got laid off, my knee is acting up, and I suspect my wife is cheating on me.”

    –you will never be invited anywhere again.

    However, in a marriage, if you can say honestly to the person to whom you are supposed to be the closest, “Today sucked and here’s why” … then why be with that person?

    It reminds me of the exotic pet anaology. If you show weakness to Manticore the tiger, she will maul you. Great for a stage show maybe. I don’t want that for a wife.

  • Leapofabeta

    @ Susan
    “But there are so many alphas around who are not men of quality or worth, who bring unhappiness and misery to women in the pursuit of getting their dicks wet.

    Women need to discourage them from “sharing.””

    And that’s fine – the advice as I wrote it was targeted towards men like Ted who see Game as immoral and manipulation when really it’s simply about knowledge and control of something that is going to happen whether they like it or not.

    Playing gatekeeper is something I have no experience at and do not envy as a role.

  • Ted D

    LoaB – “If you don’t like that answer, then you don’t like the reality of women in this world. Either don’t have them as a part of your life, put on your blinders and enjoy the women up to the moment of impact, or learn game and deal with the situation infront of you.”

    I believe there is another option. Find a woman that can handle the truth, and can control her own desires and urges enough to at least match my level of effort in the relationship. Why is it that I am expected to control myself, and her? Isn’t she responsible for controlling herself? Why should I have to “game” her to “keep her in line”? Seriously, doesn’t that sound totally degrading to say that women are incapable of controlling themselves?

    “Any time any human interacts with another in any real way besides the most monotonous ‘Hi’ as you pass each other on the street, there’s manipulation. “

    Sure, but there is nothing overt about talking to someone, or even asking them for something. However, there is a HUGE difference between that and purposefully crafting what you say and do to another person to get what you want from them. If you can’t see that difference, then we do not use the same moral compass, and I cannot explain to you where the lack of integrity is.

    “ It’s called being human, having an opinion, a world view, and sharing it.”

    Really? I have an opinion, and I’m certainly not afraid to share it. But that has absolutely nothing to do with using “negs” or instilling dread to purposefully manipulate a woman to behave as you want. Don’t you want a woman to be with you because she actually cares about you, as you are? No, I’m not saying I should be granted a sexy woman simply because I exist. I’m saying I am a decent person, and I shouldn’t need to act in ways contrary to my beliefs simply to attract a woman. She doesn’t want me, she wants what I’m advertising, and I don’t have the product to give her.
    I agree that being the best man I can be IS the proper thing to do, although I can’t say if it is or is not alpha behavior since the definition of alpha is so hard to pin down. Your entire last paragraph does not speak at all to what the ‘sphere promotes as the proper way to “deal” with women though. I like it because it is honest and forthright. But really, that isn’t at all what is being sold to men as the way to be successful with women. Nope, the common suggestion is to use the same tactics proved tried and true by travelling salesmen for ages: Just tell them you have what they want, take their money, and run.

    Susan – “Fake it till you make it is one thing. We all need to be able to do that when we’re learning something. But living one’s life in that way is unpalatable. So much so that I would advise women to avoid any man who is always putting on a good face and acting cocky dominant. That’s a caricature of a real man.”

    For the love of all that is Holy YES! I don’t even like “fake it till you make it” to be honest, but I get that sometimes it is the only way to implement a new behavior. Who the hell can always be in that mode and not burn out? Do these guys ever actually get to be themselves? Do they even know who they are anymore?

    Escoffier – “ If you always answer honestly to a passing aquiantance’s”

    Well actually I used to be pretty honest when asked that if I knew the person at all. They mostly stopped asking. LOL

    “However, in a marriage, if you can say honestly to the person to whom you are supposed to be the closest, “Today sucked and here’s why” … then why be with that person?”

    I can’t find a single answer to this question that makes sense. I don’t see the point at all…

    “Great for a stage show maybe. I don’t want that for a wife.”

    Exactly! And to me, “gaming” to an extreme extent is far closer to a stage show than a serious relationship. After all, “game” for me looks a lot like a performance art. I’ve done the music thing, and frankly I get the concept of “the mask”. But, the last thing I want is to have to wear my mask at home. I’m not looking to come home so I can start the second act, I’m coming home to leave the stage behind and be myself.

    • @Ted

      Do they even know who they are anymore?

      I tend to think of them as “the lost boys.” So, no, I don’t think they do know.

  • @ Cheerful

    “in the pursuit of getting their dicks wet”-it ain’t Thomas Jefferson, but what an image. The pithiest remark this decade.

    • @Munson

      I can’t take credit for that expression, unfortunately. Great to see you though! How’s the treatment going? Are you feeling OK?

  • Ian

    @Hope

    You can also mention the Myers Briggs test and ask him if he’s taken it, and what his type is. As cheesy as it may be, ask him his birthdate and astrological sign. Most guys find it nonsensical, but they know girls who are really interested want to know this kind of thing

    I’ve enjoyed your posts. For my own record-keeping, what’s your Myers-Briggs type? (I’ll guess INFJ) What about your background and make-up – constitution, not eye-shadow – allowed you to become so wifely?

  • Well, speaking from my own perspective, I’m not always acting girl game best, like super feminine, bubbly, happy and flirty. BUT I am always trying to be nice, calm and not bitchy. Even if I’m in a bad mood, I try hard not to let it affect my demeanor around my husband. I have snapped at my husband very, very few times, and maybe raised my voice once at him that I can remember.

    This is not how I was before red pill and girl game. I thought I could just “be myself” and do whatever I felt like. I didn’t bother to control my behavior in private, and that was just bad. Now I might wear a bit of a “mask,” but it is out of deep respect and love for my husband that I REFUSE to become unhinged emotionally around him. I would rather tell him in a small cutesy voice, “I’m feeling pissy” than have him see me fly off the handle.

  • Escoffier

    Hope, there must be some middle ground between “being yourself” defined as “never hold anything back from your worst self” and being “on” in game terms 24/7.

    The worst thing a man can do in game terms, I gather, is show weakness–unless it is part of a carefully calibrated “vulnerabilty” play after he has established himself as a super-alpha.

    Well, in the real world, real men get kicked in the teeth sometimes and get depressed. At those times, it’s nice to have a loyal woman’s support.

    Of course, no woman wants a sad sack who is down all the time. Then again, no male wants a male friend like this either.

    My point is only that some manosphere types constantly refrain that women are barely rational, the need to be gamed constantly, if you show any weakness or sadness or weariness or any beta, BAM, she’s gone, cheating, whatever. 1) That is not true, belied by experience, etc. 2) If it were true, why would you want a woman at all?

    Some are at least logically consistent and say “No sane man does want a woman except for sex.”

    • unless it is part of a carefully calibrated “vulnerabilty” play after he has established himself as a super-alpha.

      Oh good lord, I feel a migraine coming on. Do people really do this?

      Some are at least logically consistent and say “No sane man does want a woman except for sex.”

      It must be very strange to want to mesh, mate, insert yourself, into something you loathe. How can men love pussy and hate women? I would think a Fleshlight would be a better alternative.

  • Escoffier, I wasn’t advocating extremes. My husband does show weakness, and he gets depressed, sad and anxious. Rather than feeling repulsed, I try to be more attentive and loving. I don’t believe he has “game face” on 24/7. One of the things he said to me early on was “I love that I can be myself around you.”

    Ian, I am indeed INFJ. I would say I learned most of the stuff about how to be a better wife from red pill knowledge and reading what anonymous men say they want/don’t want. My parents are divorced, so I didn’t learn much from them at all. The Internet is a great source of information.

  • I think it’s not only to a woman’s advantage, but essential that she act just as Grace did. The biggest “dumb girl” trick is to fall for any guy that’ll give you attention. The guy in that story was obviously giving her attention, but it wasn’t quality attention, nor was it attention that really proved he wanted anything outside of sex. I was honestly surprised the “Can I have a kiss?” thing worked.

    But I say it’s essential because even though a dude may not like it in the moment, if she wants more than casual sex, she has to make that clear instead of going along for the ride. If she has no strings attached sex pretty quickly, the guy will love it, but she’ll also be lumped in with the group of girls he’s casually sleeping with or firing off late night texts to. That’s a hard hole to dig yourself out of.

    I don’t think it even goes as deep as “She slept with me pretty quickly, so she must be a slut.” And I also don’t think a guy necessarily wants to jump through hoops with a woman just so she can prove she was a challenge, because that can also be irritating. There’s just a natural inclination as a man to downgrade her as a “real” prospect, because after the early sex, the get to know you period is less interesting.

  • @Abbot

    I have to say, I’ve noticed that also. I have a decent amount of military friends and they describe the way they’re treated by foreign women as if it was paradise.

    It also brings to mind a podcast I used to listen to from the late Patrice O’Neal. He spoke about how he went to Brazil and had the time of his life. Not only were there crazy sexual adventures, but he didn’t have to deal with a lot of things he deals with from women in the States. This is when he came back with a new state of mind, with “de-pedestalization” being key, and vowed to get everything he wanted out of life when it comes to sex and relationships.

    To make a long story short, I’m all for relationships but I think fellas too many times sell themselves short on what we actually bring to the table. And if we realize the important role we play, we could never be put in a position to lose.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    But there are so many alphas around who are not men of quality or worth, who bring unhappiness and misery to women in the pursuit of getting their dicks wet.

    Women need to discourage them from “sharing.”

    Maybe what I’m about to say is nothing new for you. This in a nutshell is where you and I (and many other guys, likely) part ways, and why you will continue to get blowback from other bloggers on the male side.

    If I come here for the first time, I’m going to see that your concept of alpha is almost totally negative (which it really, truly seems to be 95% of the time). I’m not even going to put myself in a category for the sake of this discussion. But I’m going to tell you that I can introduce you to many people who run the gamut from stereotypically “alpha” to “beta”, and their character varies.

    The funny part about most of the “alphas” I know, is that they aren’t “sharing” anything with women. These guys are so in demand that women are lining up for them. Some revel in it and sit back and enjoy the spoils (trust me, they don’t work for it), and some would rather stay home with wifey. One in particular couldn’t be more thrilled to pass on his legacy to his unborn son.

    One thing that you should realize, is that you’re never going to get most guys (especially not me) to agree that following the path of a “beta” with a sprinkle of alpha is a good idea in this day and age. Ask yourself, what is in it for a “beta” guy as you have described them? Sounds like second best (at best) to me, and men need to do what is best for themselves, point, blank, end of story. And this is to say nothing of the biological implications overlapping the issue, or the simple fact that some people have legitimately earned their confidence through becoming who they wanted to be. Entering the category of “alpha” affords a guy more choice, more respect, and more control over his life (not just what caliber of girls he gets to fuck every weekend) thanks to a different core mentality. Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see your current message squaring with this at all, and it seems like this whole “beta bread with alpha butter” is wishful thinking and based on principles that don’t square with the real world as it exists right here and now.

    Men will choose what’s best for themselves regardless of any marketing pitch you put out there, and you may be surprised to find that some (probably many) will choose family and legacy in the end even with an “alpha” frame of reference. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again- I think you need to look long and hard at what you are suggesting with this underlying “choose a beta” concept you are encouraging a fairly risky situation for men, and a disappointing one for women.

    • @BroHamlet

      Men will choose what’s best for themselves regardless of any marketing pitch you put out there, and you may be surprised to find that some (probably many) will choose family and legacy in the end even with an “alpha” frame of reference. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again- I think you need to look long and hard at what you are suggesting with this underlying “choose a beta” concept you are encouraging a fairly risky situation for men, and a disappointing one for women.

      I am not attempting to influence men in any way. Far be it from me to tell men to be a certain way. Hell, be whatever way gets you what you want. This was the big “miss” with the beta traits post. I am talking to women. I’m telling them what grandmothers told their granddaughters in days gone by. I regularly back up my folksy wisdom with data – dominant men marry less, divorce more, cheat more, and have far fewer kids. FACT. Why do you object to women having all the facts? IMO, that’s the quickest path to disappointment. Poor choices are less likely when people are informed about the costs and benefits of their options. That’s what I’m doing.

      Women are free to disregard my advice. They certainly aren’t paying anything for it. But they don’t because they know I’m right. Most women don’t have a clue about alpha, beta, Game or any of it. I’m teaching them what the red flags are. I’m not making this stuff up – that beta post was chock full of links to academics and other experts specifically addressing the problematic traits that you would call “alpha.”

      I don’t know how many times men here have told me in the past three years that women broke the SMP, and they’re the ones that have to fix it. And that they can only do that by not putting out for asshats. Hundreds at least. That’s what I’m doing. So why are the guys upset?

      Because they aspire to be asshats, that’s why, and that’s not my problem.

  • Abbot

    “fellas too many times sell themselves short on what we actually bring to the table.”

    Women from other nations [the majority of women] are very appreciative of the respect American men show them. Would you get such feedback at home? hmm? Could it be all that feminist brow beating being channeled overseas by men? If so, what a great feminists-kicking-themseslves-in-the-ass story that is! The headline reads: Feminists Accidentally Teach American Men How to Attract Non-Feminist Foreign Women.

    Note to agendaheads, recasters and other morons before you break out the canned rhetoric: the answer is NO. Foreign women are not focused on getting a ticket to American when meeting American men. There, now they all just shut up.

  • J

    @SW

    Re: the list. My pleasure.

  • Emily

    Abbot,

    Do you have a foreign wife/girlfriend? Just curious.

  • Ted D

    BroHamlet – “Entering the category of “alpha” affords a guy more choice, more respect, and more control over his life (not just what caliber of girls he gets to fuck every weekend) thanks to a different core mentality. ”

    In this you are not talking about “alpha” in a game context though. I don’t think Susan or anyone here has ever said a man shouldn’t be the best person he can be. I suppose this is more about “inner game” but I really don’t see any connection between that and what you are likely to find on most ‘sphere blogs. I’m all for guys improving themselves, and I’m working on some of that myself. But there is no connection between feeling good about myself and what I’ve accomplished and learning how to use female “nature” to get easy access to sex. Furthermore, although clearly inner game has great applications within a committed relationship, I find very little about classic game that is in any way useful for LTR style relationships. Sure, it is great to know about the roots of women’s (and men’s) bad behavior, but the truth is I already expect my mate to be in control of her own facilities before we partnered up. If women are expecting me to provide a complete package, then I want the same in return, which to me means they should be well aware of what makes themselves tick and be prepared to rein in thier own bad impulses. I’m more than happy to point them out, but I will not for one second figure out how to control them myself. If I’m expected to control my urge to bang whatever hottie happens to cross my path, I damn well expect her to control her impulse to dump me for the alpha douchbag that will fuck her breathless and leave her the second he blows his load. I’m being asked to consider her feelings with regard to my sexual agency, I expect to be formost in her mind when she thinks about exercising hers. That takes strong character, solid moral values, and dedication to your mate and your future. That is really what I want from my mate. Surely I’d like the other qualities we all discuss regularly (attractive, nurturing, feminine, etc) but to me the most important quality is the dedication we give each other, not because we “game” each other every day, but because we both make the conscious decision to be with each other every single day.

  • J

    The pointer about talking about his past (his childhood, hurts and pains, etc.) was a very good one

    Yes and no. I’d call this less of a way to build attraction and more of a proof that attraction and more importantly trust already exist. If you jump in too with this, you’ll scare the hell of him.

  • J

    “The bitter criticizers of this young lady’s looks are just disappointed that not all Asian women fit the preconceived notions of their fantasies and are actually, you know, real people with flaws just like the rest of us. They figure, “if a billionaire like El Zucko cannot manage to nab a hot babe, what hope have we?” ”

    I think he correctly identified why the manosphere has been so hard on the couple.

    Yet, I think Zuck is smart as hell in sticking with Priscilla. Yeah, he could dump her for a chain of supermodels, but as Susan pointed out, he will never again know for sure if a woman other than Priscilla loves him for himself and not his money. I often wonder that happens when men who are rich but otherwise unattractive realize that they are being played by their trophy wives? That can’t be good.

  • J

    From a female POV, I don’t want to be on the receiving end of that. Any husband who feels the need to do that is living a secret life of sorts – it’s bound to blow up eventually. I’d much rather have my husband come home, blow off steam, and relax to regain his equilibrium.

    In many ways, knowing that a man feels comfortable enough to do that in front of you is the ultimate compliment.

  • J

    Feminism is a straw man, I believe. Social trends in America churned together to break the line of fathers. We’re in an era of all sorts of interesting psychological behaviors and customs, that will not be inherited by a functional civilization. For us, it’s just a matter of seeing past the present and the near, shaking off the baggage, and jumping on the next train.

    Great comment! I’ve said numerous times feminism is only one of many socila, political and ecominic factors at play here. It will be interesting to see what the future brings, but I feel certain that there will be no turning back the clock.

  • Abbot

    “It will be interesting to see what the future brings, but I feel certain that there will be no turning back the clock.”

    That is why it will be known as the Neo-Fifties

  • J

    @esco #598

    What you describe here is pretty much a normal relationship. I think there are far more like your marriage (and mine) than the ‘sphere likes to admit.

  • Alias

    Comments explosion as usual and soo many good ones.

    @ J # 467
    Nice list. + good suggestions for dates.

    @ Leap #253
    Good post.

    @ Hope

    I’m glad you gave examples of meaningful texting- discussing articles, exchanging opinions, and so forth since it’s vastly different than the usual texting that amounts to lots of chitchat about nothing (OK later in the relationship).
    You’ve convinced me that technology used in that way is totally fine.

    The rest of your posts were excellent and I *hope* 😀 you’ll compile them into one post. It depicts the least risk for both genders.
    Your examples of how to emotionally escalate were useful because I got the sense that some were mistaking EE for supplicating- stating “I love yous” before knowing the person which isn’t what EE is at all.
    EE is personalizing oneself and letting the other person do the same- getting to know a person- their values, their likes/dislikes, what they’re about, etc. .
    EE is less risky for women since we’re given permission to express our emotions with our friends- so it’s not as vulnerable a move as it is for men.

  • Ted D

    J – “What you describe here is pretty much a normal relationship. I think there are far more like your marriage (and mine) than the ‘sphere likes to admit.”

    I really hope this is true. I still have hope that although we may never be truly equal partners, I can at least have a relationship with a reasonably rational adult. I really don’t feel like I’m asking for too much, but the point of view given by many in the ‘sphere is that a woman cannot be expected nor trusted to act in a responsible and moral manner unless she is kept in check by a man’s “alpha” prowess.

    I really wonder, what keeps men “in check” then? For some it seems nothing…

  • BroHamlet

    @Ted D

    In this you are not talking about “alpha” in a game context though. I don’t think Susan or anyone here has ever said a man shouldn’t be the best person he can be. I suppose this is more about “inner game” but I really don’t see any connection between that and what you are likely to find on most ‘sphere blogs. I’m all for guys improving themselves, and I’m working on some of that myself. But there is no connection between feeling good about myself and what I’ve accomplished and learning how to use female “nature” to get easy access to sex.

    What a lot of those blogs are not telling you, is that the foundation for all of that stuff comes from the inside, and that it all works much better when you approach it from that angle first. Then you won’t have to “use” anyone for anything, or use underhanded tactics. Most of the “tips and tricks” are just decoration in my mind.

    Further, what I don’t see happening in my lifetime, is women being able to control the impulses that you mention, nor being encouraged by society to do so. Maybe this is the way of the world now, and we are already too far gone to change it? Sure seems that way. So with that in mind, why would any guy want to be part of a script that he himself has not written, a la Susan’s proposal to choose a “beta”?

    There’s too much of an upside to truly being alpha in the sense of being the guy that has what he needs in terms of success with women AND initiative and direction, and not just being “that guy that looks like he’ll commit”. That guy is truly in a position to choose his destiny. I am rambling here, but this is what I think the ideal direction is as far as “alpha” goes. This is different than what our fathers had to do to get attention and requires more time for some people than others to adapt to, but there you have it.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    As others have said before, if game is “manipulation”, then so are makeup, push-up bras, and high heels.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    For that matter Ted, you must just be utterly outraged every time a cute waitress or bartender makes small talk or flirts with you. How dare she try to manipulate you!!!

  • BroHamlet

    @Jimmy

    As others have said before, if game is “manipulation”, then so are makeup, push-up bras, and high heels.

    And so is pretending to like certain things and offer certain “services” to get a commitment out of someone. Many people think that manipulation is only manipulation if it happens in one direction.

    • @BroHamlet

      As others have said before, if game is “manipulation”, then so are makeup, push-up bras, and high heels.

      This is not a valid analogy, because one is physical enticements, and one is behavioral. The correct analogy for men would be an expensive car, chiseled abs, nicely tailored clothes. Visual cues that connote mating fitness.

      I don’t think all game is manipulation, but dark game is, and that is analagous to, for example, a woman’s claiming she is pregnant to get a man to marry her, or cuckolding a man with another man’s child. Deceit is a necessary ingredient.

  • Leapofabeta

    @ Ted

    When you’re done digesting your purple pill, and ready to accept the world as it is instead of how you want it to be, I’ll keep a red pill on hand for you. I’m sure yohami, dog squat, or anyone else would also be ready to hand it to you

    @ Susan

    By typing out a blog you yourself are manipulating others. You are writing your beliefs and expecting others to be impacted by them and shift their viewpoints closer to yours. You gain by doing so. You have been growing ad a person and a blogger. Getting to know people, gaining influence. Yes, your views have changed. Yes, you’ve been giving your time, energy, and emotions to all of us here.

    You’ve also been manipulating all of us the whole time.

    And I come here because I’m ok with that and enjoy it. I put in my own time and energy to do the same growth, influencing, etc. My time here in the spheres of influence of you and your commenters has been worth it and I have both taken the value everyone has offered me while offering my own.

    Just because you haven’t, don’t, or won’t think of it in those terms doesn’t change the facts.

    • You’ve also been manipulating all of us the whole time.

      Manipulation is lying for the express purpose of gaining a personal, selfish advantage, a white lie is lying to protect another person’s feelings, and influencing is being honest and forthright in a persuasive manner.

      Manipulation is a specific kind of influence. Dictionary def:

      Exerting shrewd or devious influence especially for one’s own advantage

      The key, as always, is intent. I do not write HUS for my own advantage, though I do enjoy writing it for others. It’s always OK to “do well by doing good.”

      While I do obviously attempt to influence, I generally do try to treat people with kindness and respect, unless of course I’m being attacked unscrupulously, which has happened in the past. Self-defense is a critical part of blogging.

  • Leap of a Beta, I hate to get into semantics, but what Susan is doing with the blog is generally called “influencing” not “manipulating.” Manipulation is lying for the express purpose of gaining a personal, selfish advantage, a white lie is lying to protect another person’s feelings, and influencing is being honest and forthright in a persuasive manner.

    I wouldn’t advocate that a girl use makeup and girl game if she doesn’t genuinely have feelings for a guy. Manipulation is much darker in intention than charm, influence and persuasion.

  • Ted D

    BroHamlet – “What a lot of those blogs are not telling you, is that the foundation for all of that stuff comes from the inside, and that it all works much better when you approach it from that angle first.”

    And there it is! I’ve seen that ugly truth for awhile now but wondered if anyone else (including those bloggers themselves) actually realized it. A man that is truly at peace and happy with who he is and what he has accomplished probably won’t need any of those “tricks” to find and keep a mate. I’m positive he would be able to get laid much easier if he resorted to “game” tactics, but why should that even be a priority for a guy that has his shit together? Sure, everyone likes sex, but is it really worth all that extra effort when you could simply be your best and enjoy the company of a woman that likes you that way?

    “Further, what I don’t see happening in my lifetime, is women being able to control the impulses that you mention, nor being encouraged by society to do so”

    Well I can’t argue with you here, but that shouldn’t stop every single man alive from trying to at least open the eyes of the woman he is with. I see how men are supposed to lead, be in control, be the dominant one in a relationship, and in the same post they are told how to trick their way into a woman’s pants. Is that dominance? Leading? I don’t think so. If I’m truly supposed to lead my mate, then to me that requires that I teach her about herself, not learn to work around her issues. Will society ever encourage women to be moral again? To be honest I have no idea. We could be nuked and invaded by China tomorrow and the entire debate would be moot, but I damn well bet society would change drastically overnight.

    “ So with that in mind, why would any guy want to be part of a script that he himself has not written, a la Susan’s proposal to choose a “beta”?”

    I get this, but follow me a second. The reason we all despise the term “beta” so much is because we men mostly feel like we were tricked into it. I certainly do! But, that doesn’t mean that being beta is bad, it simply means we were not given the choice to decide for ourselves. If I set aside my anger over being “duped”, I can see that for the long haul, my beta traits serve me very well. I can also see that ONLY having (or at least expressing) beta traits will get me shit canned by just about every women on earth. So I’m working on adding a little “alpha” to the mix, which for me really means speaking my mind a bit more, asking for what I want, and expecting things I need from my relationship.

    So now let us imagine for a moment I am a freshly minted man. (Since we are imagining, I am 22 years old and look like I should be on the cover of a romance novel.) If I were to look at the entirety of behaviors/traits from both alpha and beta pools, what do you think the best mix would be IF my interest was a long term relationship with one woman? Yeah, I would pick some stuff from the alpha side for sure, but if I didn’t pull at least equally (and probably a bit more heavily) from the beta side, I really wouldn’t have much to offer a woman other than my bad assed self. And although my bad ass may be exciting, it probably isn’t going to promote much in terms of security and comfort within a relationship. Surely you are correct in saying that being “alpha” gives a guy more options in some ways, but it closes down options in others. And to me it comes down to what options you really want in life. I don’t want or need the option to have sex with hundreds of women. In fact, history proves that all I require is one woman to be with, and she can easily meet my minimum sexual needs. But, the flip side to that is I require a lot more from my mate in regards to character, morality, and integrity than any alpha would of his conquests. If I’m asking a woman to bring more to the table, I better have something to offer other than my cock and motorcycle. And that is where the beta traits come in. I don’t think for one moment Susan is trying to convince men to blindly be the beta of yesterday. She is asking men (and trying to get women to reward such men) to CHOOSE to be the beta provider, as long as you are getting an equal return from your mate. She isn’t suggesting men throw themselves on the altar of feminism, she is suggesting to them that if they really want what they were promised, they will have to consider altering the perception of what it is to be a good husband/boyfriend/mate and possibly adjust some behaviors accordingly. I don’t want to follow someone else’s script (although I did exactly that to an extent in my youth following the directions of my family) but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t choose beta over alpha. To me, there isn’t even a choice to be made here. Alpha and Beta are labels made by other people to easily categorize men. Screw that! Don’t be either, be yourself. Choose the alpha traits you want (there are certainly plenty of good ones to choose from) and then choose the beta traits you like. (I enjoy cooking so I don’t see it as something beneath me to do, and I don’t feel less manly for doing it) and make yourself into what you want to be, not something to fit the mold.

    What bugs me so much about the ‘sphere in general is that they focus only on sex, access to sex, and what men can do to get more sex. I understand that we have a generation or two of men who have been raised to deny their own natures, without fathers, and they are struggling to find themselves. And what do the heralds of the day suggest? Wear a funny hat and make fun of hot women so they will sleep with you. Is that REALLY all there is to being a man? If so many young men are truly lost, shouldn’t we be telling them to improve themselves BEFORE we suggest they chase a lot of tail? I’m not suggesting that what game advocates teach doesn’t work, but I have to wonder why men of the ‘sphere consider sexual conquest the most important part of being a man.

  • Escoffier

    Susan:

    1) “Vulnerability game” is something Roissy frequently writes about. The thing is, though, it is always calculated. The idea is, once you have established yourself as sufficiently alpha, you make a small show of some irrational fear, e.g., “When I was nine I was attacked by a blue jay and to this day blue birds freak me out.” Actual displays of vulnerabilty are verboten because they are signs of weakness, which dry pussies instantly and cause you get cheated on, dumped, divorce raped, etc. That’s the theory anyway. However, in practive, I have certainly had some “down” moments and my wife was very supportive. She was actually a good mix of supportive (“There, there, it’s OK”) and prodding (“Stop moping and do something about it!!”). She did not, to my knowledge, dump me, cheat on me, or divorce rape me.

    2) I don’t think the hardcore gamers really “hate” women. “Contempt” is closer to the right word. They find women beautiful and potentially charming and can be intoxicated by their presense. However, they also find them irrational and not quite fully formed in the soul; basically defective humans but still human with many wonderful qualities. The exotic pet analogy really is perfect. Beautiful, interesting, a huge challenge, but flighty, imperious, dangerous to be around. So if you like risk, the reward can be immense. The downside is also huge, greater the less game you have and the more you invest.

  • Leapofabeta

    @ Ted

    I’ll also add that when I talk about alpha behavior I am defining it as a whole alpha male instead of simply talking about a man who has sex with lots of women. The second is true from a biological sense, it’s easier to define, it’s easier to teach, and it’s easier to write about

    When I talk about it here, other blogs, and in my own writing I am distilling others writings I’ve learned from, my experiences, my intelligence, and writing about a very specific type of alpha. It is a type I want to become because it suites my personality, it would make me happy, and it would feel far more natural than my previous/current behavior of society overwriting my natural impulses to fit feminist ideas of what a man should be.

    So yes, most people find they like my definition better. It’s also a lot damned harder to learn and write about, let alone become. But god dammit, I’m doing it because it’s worth doing. But even my ‘nicer’ definition won’t go anywhere if you insist on ignoring the realities of biological and social influences on women to not be this ‘good girl’ of your dreams. And no, it’s not fair that men have to work this hard and women don’t. But life isn’t fair. And doing this will get you the best woman you can.

    But more than anything, it is simply worth the growth and worth the journey

  • Ted D

    Jimmy Hendricks – “For that matter Ted, you must just be utterly outraged every time a cute waitress or bartender makes small talk or flirts with you. How dare she try to manipulate you!!!”

    Outraged? Nope. But I also don’t tip waitresses based on how well they flirt. I tip on how well they serve. If other guys want to pay her for flattery, that is their business. 😉

    LoaB – “When you’re done digesting your purple pill, and ready to accept the world as it is instead of how you want it to be, I’ll keep a red pill on hand for you. I’m sure yohami, dog squat, or anyone else would also be ready to hand it to you”

    Thanks but I’m good. I have no idea what purple pill alludes to, but I’ve been around a bit now and I really do get the concepts. I also understand that when you wrestle with pigs, you tend to get dirty. And I have no desire to be covered in mud. Just because I know there are plenty of people in the world that use manipulation to get their way, it does not mean I have to do so as well. What I’m suggesting is that “game” is NOT the only way a man can hope to be successful with *A* women, but it may be the easiest and require the least amount of real self work. Plenty of people are fine with taking the easy route, but IME nothing in life worth much is easy. I’m not trying to hide from red pill reality, I’m trying to do better. And after all, isn’t that what knowledge is really about? Learning from our past to make our future better?

    And seriously, we are starting to get kina liberal in the definition of manipulation. So from Dictionary.com

    Manipulate –
    1. ( tr ) to handle or use, esp with some skill, in a process or action: to manipulate a pair of scissors
    2. to negotiate, control, or influence (something or someone)cleverly, skilfully, or deviously
    3. to falsify (a bill, accounts, etc) for one’s own advantage
    4. (in physiotherapy) to examine or treat manually, as in loosening a joint

    I think for our purposes we can disregard 1 and 4. 2 and 3 seem to apply though, and in particular point 3 to me sums up “game” theory to a T. “To falsify for one’s own advantage”. Let me see… Pretend to be dominant? That fits. Neg a woman to “knock her off her pedestal” . Yeah, that sounds right. Do your best to avoid answering questions honestly in the hopes of getting the upper hand? Seems to fit as well. Even definition 2 mentions the descriptor “deviously”, so can we PLEASE, PLEASE stop calling every single interaction with another human being manipulation? Obviously the dictionary does not agree with your definition, and I’m sorry but I put more faith in the dictionary.

    Attempts to paint all interactions as manipulation simply serve to confuse the issue. Of course I’m sure that is the objective…

  • Ted D

    LoaB – “But more than anything, it is simply worth the growth and worth the journey”

    At least here you and I are on the same page. I really would like it if more people simply realized this simple truth. But, when I say people, I’m not just talking about men.

  • Ted D

    LoaB – I just realized something I’d like to clarify. I wasn’t directing my dictionary comments AT YOU, but to everyone in general.

  • Abbot

    “Manipulation is a specific kind of influence. Dictionary def:

    Exerting shrewd or devious influence especially for one’s own advantage”

    Then in the SMP, the manipulator is played by the desperate duper [remaker, panderer, number blurer, self loather, etc] who wholly disrespects a man she claims to love by not allowing him to fully consider her sexual past because she flat out lies about it. Unknown to your grandpa, this intentionally manipulative creature evolved during the past forty years and is the most evil manifestation of the SMP.

  • Ted D

    “As others have said before, if game is “manipulation”, then so are makeup, push-up bras, and high heels.”

    Do we really have to even argue this point? There is NOTHING subtle about makeup, push-up bras, and high heels. There is no overt deception, it is blatant advertising.

  • Wudang

    Hope:

    Your girl game would have worked very well on me. That stuff looks really good to me. It made me think of a study where random people where set to go through asking each other a bunch of questions designed to make them get to know each other deeply. By the end many felt closer to the people they met that same day than they did to people close to them.

    One of the reasons I like my best female friend so much is because she has such great intuitive respect for the way men experience things and what we want and apreceate. When I acomplish something that I care about as a man but is utterly meaningless to her she understands the importance of such things so well and is able to communicate that so well it makes me feel very comfortable, understood and apreceated in a way I very rarely do.

    I have experience much more comfort in being a man and respect for being a man and liking what men do with women from eastern and southern europe and asia and it really increases my interest in a woman a lot if I feel that arround her.

    It really is quite astounding to read the difference you descirbe between pre red pill Hope and after red pill Hope. That is a very good description of what can be achieved. It also demonstrates the fact that a lot of current female behaviour that men aren`t very happy about is in fact the result of some tendencies in women being alowed to run amock because of a loss of the ideal of how to behave functionally.

    I do Hope you don`t restrain yourself too much or in unatural ways. I also rather like being able to be a calm center for women and to make them feel better when they are on small emotional roller coaster rides and so do enjoy that “unstability” quite a bit as long as it isen`t too much.

    I think in the future we can do a lot better than cultures who presently have good relations between the sexes because we will be getting an even more full, deeper, precise and detailed understanding of how to treat the other gender.

    I think it will be very interesting to see how girl game theories will develop. I think a lot can be achieved. One part is the type of stuff Hope talks about. Another very important part is expressing a sensual and seductive sexual pull that does not come of as slutty and how to indirectly escalate sexually through that. Some French women are very good at that.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Sure, everyone likes sex, but is it really worth all that extra effort when you could simply be your best and enjoy the company of a woman that likes you that way?

    You’re assuming that your best is good enough. For most guys, it isn’t. Especially if you’re aiming for girls in the 7+ range.

    So I’m working on adding a little “alpha” to the mix, which for me really means speaking my mind a bit more, asking for what I want, and expecting things I need from my relationship.

    It sounds nice, but that’s not going to be good enough to get an attractive 22 year old girl. If you want to play in the big leagues, you have to bring your A-game.

    I don’t want or need the option to have sex with hundreds of women. In fact, history proves that all I require is one woman to be with, and she can easily meet my minimum sexual needs.

    Even when you’re heavily inclined toward monogamy (which I am, and so are most guys), you can’t deny the HUGE dividend that having hundreds of options gives versus having to choose between a small handful of girls that are interested. Why wouldn’t a guy want to put the odds in his favor, be in control of the selection process, take exactly what he wants?

    What bugs me so much about the ‘sphere in general is that they focus only on sex, access to sex, and what men can do to get more sex… I’m not suggesting that what game advocates teach doesn’t work, but I have to wonder why men of the ‘sphere consider sexual conquest the most important part of being a man.

    A lot of guys have everything else going for them in their lives (education, career, interests) and really only struggle with seduction. That’s why you see it so much. For many guys, it’s the last piece. All that other stuff is pretty self-explanatory and doesn’t require cultural de-programming or behavioral change.

  • Alias

    Ted D:
    “We could be nuked and invaded by China tomorrow and the entire debate would be moot, but I damn well bet society would change drastically overnight. ”
    ———-

    Yep, it’ll be a whole heck of a lot crowded.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    This is not a valid analogy, because one is physical enticements, and one is behavioral.

    Susan, it’s absolutely valid. Men are primarily attracted to physical enticements, and women are primarily attracted to specific sets of behavior. Each is simply supplying the other side with what they want.

    Do we really have to even argue this point? There is NOTHING subtle about makeup, push-up bras, and high heels. There is no overt deception, it is blatant advertising.

    Most game is usually just blatant advertising that a guy is cocky and interesting. And most attractive girls love it and eagerly buy it.

    Where is the deception?

    • @Jimmy Hendricks

      Men are primarily attracted to physical enticements, and women are primarily attracted to specific sets of behavior. Each is simply supplying the other side with what they want.

      I don’t agree. We’re not as visual as men are, but looks are important to women, both for short- and long-term mating. That’s one of our primary sources of information about genetic fitness. It’s not fair to men to tell them looks don’t matter. Game can definitely boost a guy a point or two, but not get him to the top of the pyramid.

      Most game is usually just blatant advertising that a guy is cocky and interesting. And most attractive girls love it and eagerly buy it.

      Where is the deception?

      There isn’t any in that case. A woman wearing a pushup bra or heels is advertising, but she won’t be able to deceive for long. Same with a guy running cocky funny game. If that reflects who he is, great, if not he’s going to be found out soon enough. Those are just aspects of the mating dance. We all expect others to put their best feet forward.

      Manipulation or deceit involves knowing getting a person to make a deal that they wouldn’t make if they had the correct information. A guy pretending he’s open to a relationship, for example, or a woman pretending her N is lower than it is.

      Lying requires intent to deceive – I think we all know it when we’ve been lied to.

  • “What bugs me so much about the ‘sphere in general is that they focus only on sex, access to sex, and what men can do to get more sex…

    Is that REALLY all there is to being a man?”

    No, but it’s a pretty huge part. It’d be criminal to downplay our motivation for so much of what we do. I love travel, a successful career and fine dining, but gotta say, if there’s no sex wrapped up in all of that it’s a pretty big void.

  • Abbot

    ““We could be nuked and invaded by China tomorrow and the entire debate would be moot, but I damn well bet society would change drastically overnight. ”
    ———-
    Yep, it’ll be a whole heck of a lot crowded.”

    Yes, with your pick of wife material…

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    Why do you object to women having all the facts? IMO, that’s the quickest path to disappointment. Poor choices are less likely when people are informed about the costs and benefits of their options. That’s what I’m doing.

    I don’t disagree at all with women having the facts. What I am a little worried at is that you are one out of thousands of influences and messages in a 20-something girl’s life, and you are one of the few positive, non-entitlement-engendering ones. So chances are she’s going to want to have her cake and eat it too, or just want to get what seems acceptable in the end as women are likely to do, not because that’s what she actually wanted or because she understood the nuances of what she wanted and why.

    Another aspect to what I’m saying is that you need to stop reading so much into the style-over-substance alpha philosophy that some of the manosphere blogs are pushing. It seems you have bought what they say without thinking about the concept of alpha yourself and what it means to women. Some of the manosphere criteria is extremely limited. Essentially, instead of saying “go for second tier”, take your own tack and have a crack at redefining what first tier really means (and don’t use second tier terminology to describe it).

    I don’t know how many times men here have told me in the past three years that women broke the SMP, and they’re the ones that have to fix it. And that they can only do that by not putting out for asshats. Hundreds at least. That’s what I’m doing. So why are the guys upset?

    Ted D hits pretty close to the mark here:
    “The reason we all despise the term “beta” so much is because we men mostly feel like we were tricked into it. I certainly do! But, that doesn’t mean that being beta is bad, it simply means we were not given the choice to decide for ourselves.”

    Personally- I can’t say I really fit into any box, and I don’t feel tricked. I’ve always been pretty popular for whatever reason even when I didn’t have a lot of self-belief (though that’s no real reflection on what my true value is as an individual by any stretch) and I have learned the ropes with women and in life as some of the other guys here have through trial and error (and I’m still learning on both counts). The part that I think is off is that essentially what you seem to be saying is to choose “beta” because “he’ll commit”, not because he’s valuable. I am telling you that there needs to be a total reframe of the thought process and the terminology surrounding “alpha”, because I think it’s better to show people the good and point to that as the gold standard, rather than to say “go to that guy, he’ll give you what you want”.

    Because they aspire to be asshats, that’s why, and that’s not my problem

    Maybe my experience is not that common, but there came a point where I found I could get girls without being an asshat or moving in that direction. That is probably because I rejected the idea that I had to be anyone but me for people (and women) to like me. I think a lot of what you see is guys aspiring to whatever gets them laid, because to go without just plain sucks. Sex is on Maslow’s for a reason.

    • @BroHamlet

      Another aspect to what I’m saying is that you need to stop reading so much into the style-over-substance alpha philosophy that some of the manosphere blogs are pushing. It seems you have bought what they say without thinking about the concept of alpha yourself and what it means to women. Some of the manosphere criteria is extremely limited. Essentially, instead of saying “go for second tier”, take your own tack and have a crack at redefining what first tier really means (and don’t use second tier terminology to describe it).

      I agree that the terminology is problematic. However, I challenge you to find anything second tier about my description of good men in that post. I don’t encourage women to settle for supplicating, low self-esteem or feminized men. I truly believe that the traits I listed are attractive traits primarily found in men who are not at the top of the dominance hierarchy.

      The part that I think is off is that essentially what you seem to be saying is to choose “beta” because “he’ll commit”, not because he’s valuable.

      Again, I don’t see where you’re getting that. I don’t believe there is any implication in the post, or in any of my writing, that women should “settle for what they can get.” I think women need to look deeper, as you say, beyond the superficial flash that passes for alpha, particularly among young men. They need to evaluate men for character instead.

      I think a lot of what you see is guys aspiring to whatever gets them laid, because to go without just plain sucks.

      I understand that. But I’ve been assured many times by men here that a young guy will absolutely not choose a relationship if he has options for no-strings sex. I don’t judge any guy aspiring to do what it takes to get casual sex, but at the same time I would advise relationship-oriented women to steer clear.

      It’s becoming clear to me that some men here object to my advising women against casual sex of any kind. Guys here have rather resentfully accused me of being biased against players and cads. It’s laughable really, what do you expect?

      As long as the primary definition of alpha = guy who gets laid frequently by different women – and that is very definitely the primary definition throughout the manosphere – then I’ll be warning women about them.

      On the other hand, if we were talking about masculinity and manhood the way it is described and explored at a site like The Art of Manliness – well, that would be a different story. He is doing a great service for men of all ages, and even he is disgusted by “alpha male jackassery.”

  • Alias

    “Yep, it’ll be a whole heck of a lot crowded.”
    Edit: insert lot ^more^ crowded.

    Abbot:
    Yes, with your pick of wife material…”
    ———-

    LOL

  • On Manipulation vs Influence

    Exerting shrewd or devious influence especially for one’s own advantage

    The only dictionary difference between manipulation and influence is that one is defined as good and one is bad.

    Considering that any influence you have on a person is going to be for the good of the one doing the influencing, I will stick by my use of manipulation.

    If I men and women subscribe to an individual’s influence – it is to that individual’s benefit. The more people running around the world with that one person’s morals, lifestyle, beliefs, etc; the better for that individual. Additionally, but being the individual to influence others towards one’s own world view you gain the respect of the people you’ve influenced and any side benefits those people are able to give you such as status, respect, money, time, energy, emotional support, etc.

    By saying that a man without game is simply influencing people while a man with game is manipulating them is to instantly draw the lines and pitch a moral battle between the two beliefs.

    The results are the same either way. Interactions with others lead to influencing them for your own advantages, whether you acknowledge that or not. If some need to claim a moral high ground of serving others needs, that’s fine and good for them. I personally claim to serve only my own needs. I’m ok with this.

    As it happens, my personal needs, goals, and morals include adding value to my life through adding value to the lives of people I care about, the community around me through my work in the theatre, the national dialogue involved in theatre, and online in the ‘Sphere.

    And before anyone asks if I’m much of a cynic – no. I think cynics are cute and fluffy, like puppies.

    • @Leap of a beta

      The only dictionary difference between manipulation and influence is that one is defined as good and one is bad.

      Exactly. That’s what we’re saying. Manipulation is bad, influence can be good, bad or neutral.

      Considering that any influence you have on a person is going to be for the good of the one doing the influencing

      My mission statement disproves that. I do make a small income, about 1/8 what I made as a consultant.

      he more people running around the world with that one person’s morals, lifestyle, beliefs, etc; the better for that individual.

      How so? How do I benefit if a college girl refuses to hook up with a lacrosse player?

      I personally claim to serve only my own needs. I’m ok with this.

      Yikes. In that case, you are a terrible relationship prospect. I hope your mating strategy is strictly short-term.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    This is not a valid analogy, because one is physical enticements, and one is behavioral. The correct analogy for men would be an expensive car, chiseled abs, nicely tailored clothes. Visual cues that connote mating fitness.

    I don’t think all game is manipulation, but dark game is, and that is analagous to, for example, a woman’s claiming she is pregnant to get a man to marry her, or cuckolding a man with another man’s child. Deceit is a necessary ingredient.

    First of all, you missed what I said because the blockquotes didn’t work. I said:

    And so is pretending to like certain things and offer certain “services” to get a commitment out of someone. Many people think that manipulation is only manipulation if it happens in one direction.

    By your definition, there is some deception to bait-and-switch as described above.

    Jimmy was the one that said the comment about makeup and heels. For the record, I do agree with Jimmy, though. The analogy is fine, because physical enticements in faking clear skin, a couple inches of height, and a bigger cup size is to women as faking swagger and confidence, social resources, and the interest of other women is to men. The two are equal as far as priority on the mating scale for the opposite party.

    • The two are equal as far as priority on the mating scale for the opposite party.

      As I said, I think that appearing in the most advantageous way to the opposite sex is perfectly natural and good. Any fakery is going to be quickly discovered by either party.

      Deceiving about larger matters that might not be discovered for a long period of time is obviously a very different matter. A criminal record, having a kid somewhere, being infertile, etc. etc.

  • That’s funny – I laughingly suggested to Grace he might be a vampire. That’s about the only justification I can think of for his behavior.

    Maybe she should sent it a text message: Given that you can only see me close to midnight I can see that you are a vampire. Sorry I can’t kiss bloodsuckers is against my religion. But I hope we can be coworkers on day light.

    @BroHamlet

    I think Susan is doing it right encouraging women to rewards good character instead of shallow attractiveness. I come from an overpopulation of Alpha’s and what is the best for one of them is not the best for all of us. You might know good Alpha’s but even the best Alpha has issue I know father’s and sons Alphas and they can’t spent an hour in the same run. Is like having two roosters on the same space, there is always the competition running stronger than any love or tie, they might kill for each other but there is the big chance that they will also kill each other. Is not only about women you know? Is about family and society, YMMV.

  • @ Ted on purple pill

    It was a reference to an old thread here. One where Yohami was referring to an individual not being a blue pill person any more, but not being a red pill one yet either. Instead, they saw the issues of the red pill, claiming red pill status, while clinging desperately to the idea that the world should be romantic world of rainbows and unicorns sold to them with the blue pill.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    As I said, I think that appearing in the most advantageous way to the opposite sex is perfectly natural and good. Any fakery is going to be quickly discovered by either party.

    So do you recommend to your focus groups that they don’t wear makeup, high heels or push-up bras, since their deception will soon be discovered?

    I’d be willing to bet no. And that’s a good thing. Guys positively respond to those qualities, just as girls positively respond to game. That’s why both should be encouraged.

    How do you think a girl’s peers are going to view her if she constantly harps on how she’s so much more moral than they are because she doesn’t use makeup, high heels, or push-up bras? She’d get the exact same reaction that guys who call game “deception” are getting.

    • @Jimmy Hendricks

      I’d be willing to bet no. And that’s a good thing. Guys positively respond to those qualities, just as girls positively respond to game. That’s why both should be encouraged.

      I agree, I don’t think we’re at odds here. It makes sense for everyone to do what they can to make a good first impression. I don’t have a problem with that. I do have to say, the whole idea of makeup, high heels and bras being false advertising strikes me as ridiculous. I can pick out a butter face or pair of droopy boobs the minute I see a woman, regardless of whatever attempts she’s made at camouflage. Women adorn themselves to please men.

      You can complain about women dressing up, or women gaining weight and wearing sweatpants, but not both.

  • @ Susan

    I don’t know about other male commenters but I really don’t like or appreciate when you break down my sentences in the middle of the sentences and take them out of context. Some of the questions you’re asking were answered subsequently in that same comment, so they don’t do anything other than break up my thoughts to make me look like a stuttering, foolish child instead of a thoughtful comment where I was responding to multiple comments by multiple people.

    Onwards.

    Influence is manipulation because the person doing the influencing will ALWAYS gain something by doing so. They gain an ego boost for being important enough to be considered. They gain validation on their choices when others agree with them and then go make those same choices. The world becomes a safer, happier place for them because more people are agreeing with them, sharing resources towards the same lifestyles and goals, and less likely to target them as a competitor, danger, or threat.

    All of this is a good thing. It leads to a stable society that agrees with one another, can produce civilization, societal growth, increased productivity, and increased birth rates. Of course its how we evolved.

    In your specific case, since you asked me what I thought you would gain from this blog, I will point to the above idea that I will assume you enjoy the ego boost of knowing other people care about your opinion. It likely invokes motherly attitudes and behaviors towards commenters on this site that you connect with; leading to the same satisfaction of seeing them prosper that is close to that of a child, family member, or close friend. I’d bet that you enjoyed influencing national dialogue on gender roles through the article in the Atlantic. You validate your own good choices in your husband and reinforce those choices upon others – making it more likely that they won’t even want to poach your husband because doing so would be a ‘bad idea’ and an immoral action that goes against your world view.

    Again, these are GOOD THINGS. But you do have something to gain by influencing people and they are not necessarily immediately apparent, material items.

    Also, in regards to this quote that you so wonderfully took out of context:

    Me: I personally claim to serve only my own needs. I’m ok with this.

    You: Yikes. In that case, you are a terrible relationship prospect. I hope your mating strategy is strictly short-term.

    Me if you had kept reading: As it happens, my personal needs, goals, and morals include adding value to my life through adding value to the lives of people I care about, the community around me through my work in the theatre, the national dialogue involved in theatre, and online in the ‘Sphere.”

    So. I am a man of value. I am completely ok and, in fact, ENJOY sharing that value with other people of value. It is fun, makes me happy, and adds numerous other values to my own life. If a woman comes to be someone that I care about, I will add my worth, value, and resources to hers through sharing them. I will fight god damn tooth and nail for her, to add value to her life. But she has to prove that she’ll add value to mine. And I will defend everything that I own and have created from the world that is constantly trying to take it from me or take me for a free ride, which means I defend those resources to share with her, my friends, my family, my community.

    By doing so I increase the odds of myself to continue having a life of value, of her to have a life of value, to have the opportunity to have kids, passing on my genetics and values to the next generation. And I’ll give those kids the best quality of life I can for them to do the same.

    • @Leap

      I don’t know about other male commenters but I really don’t like or appreciate when you break down my sentences in the middle of the sentences and take them out of context.

      I don’t believe I did that. I excerpted what I thought was the most telling of your comments, and I felt they were reflective of the comment as a whole.

      Influence is manipulation because the person doing the influencing will ALWAYS gain something by doing so.

      That’s like saying that charity or altruism is manipulation because the generous person feels gratified by the response of those he helped. That’s insane, a bizarre form of moral equivalency.

      Manipulation is devious. The definition of devious is: Showing a skillful use of underhanded tactics to achieve goals.

      If you want to argue that words like devious and underhanded are neutral terms, I’m not buying it.

      Manipulation bad. Influence neutral, good or bad. Not the same thing at all.

      I personally claim to serve only my own needs. I’m ok with this.

      As it happens, my personal needs, goals, and morals include adding value to my life through adding value to the lives of people I care about, the community around me through my work in the theatre, the national dialogue involved in theatre, and online in the ‘Sphere.”

      I think the second part of your comment is compatible with the tone of the first. You add value to your life by adding value to others through theater work and blogging. Nothing wrong with that, but by your own definition both of those are a big ego boost for you.

      I appreciate your clarification about being willing to fight for a woman you care about.

      And I will defend everything that I own and have created from the world that is constantly trying to take it from me or take me for a free ride

      This is a very telling statement about your worldview. I don’t know what else to say, so I’ll leave it here. I apologize for offending you.

  • Wudang, thank you for the endorsement of my advice! I have also read about that study, although that was a while after I had already gotten together with my husband. I’ve always been about bonding through getting to know each other deeply, with female friends as well.

    I read that back in the day when everyone slept in the same room because houses were tiny, young lovers would be tied to the bed so they couldn’t do anything physical and just talk and bond that way. They called it bundling in Europe. In Asia there was a practice for young girl and boy to talk to each other across a wall, without seeing or touching each other.

    As for expressing sensuality/sexual energy, that is a whole separate topic. My initial thoughts on it is that it’s about being understated but hinting at more, being simultaneously push and pull, also unexpected contrasts and psychological stimulation. So for example, show some skin but not everything, talk sexily but have demure body language, bold colors like red lipstick but conservative dress otherwise, etc. This is both highly individual and also universal, so it sort of ties into the getting to know each other part, too.

  • Game has its place as long as it’s righteous. If I learn enough about a woman’s personality or vulnerabilities to skew it in my favor, that’s not playing very nice. But if I’m running an internal “plan” to consciously project positive, attractive vibes, through the scope of my own personality and beliefs, then I don’t find that harmful at all. In fact, I’d call that the mating game. No species is exempt from it.

    • @Rone

      Game has its place as long as it’s righteous…If I’m running an internal “plan” to consciously project positive, attractive vibes, through the scope of my own personality and beliefs, then I don’t find that harmful at all.

      Cosign.

  • BroHamlet

    @Anacaona

    I think Susan is doing it right encouraging women to rewards good character instead of shallow attractiveness.

    So do I, but as I said, I think a reframe and some more original thought on the alpha/beta spectrum is in order per my previous comment. And as I said in the 10 Reasons post, this is largely an emotional arena. I don’t see checklists or anything overly logical like it helping on a large scale unless there’s a greater level of self-knowledge and self-mastery in women regarding their own emotions. I harp on this piece a lot, because it’s key. I’d suggest that self-development content like suggested reading for women and things like it also be a bigger part of this blog’s content. That way messages like that can stick. Just my 2 cents.

    • @BroHamlet

      I’d suggest that self-development content like suggested reading for women and things like it also be a bigger part of this blog’s content.

      I really appreciate this suggestion. It echoes what some of the women have been asking for as well. I will definitely develop some posts that address this. I love the idea of suggested readings, so if anyone has great book suggestions, or even articles, let me know.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Well, Susan, Re: your beta post.

    You want girls to pick Beta guys with a little bit of Alpha.

    Guys have bifurcated into Beta and Alpha. Once you go Alpha, you don’t go back. So to get this mix, you need a guy going from the Beta trip to the Alpha trip.

    And as he makes that trip, he is going to become more confident, better with women, and slowly get more and more options. And the trip is going to be…well…it might build momentum.

    So you have to catch him fast. And, more importantly, you have to pull out all the stops to keep him.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Oh, and because our culture is so heavily sexualized, he might be feeling like he’s missing out on his prime, so you had better be pulling out all the stops to make him feel absolutely amazing.

  • J

    Alias–Thanks for the compliments.

    Abbot–Time is an arrow that points one way. People think about time as circular or as pendulum swings, but it never really repeats itself in an exact fashion. There hopefully will be return to family values, but I doubt it’ll look like the 50s. The confluence of a postwar economic boom and the abandonment of the tradition role of women from farm or (later) factory producer to suburban consumer is not likely to repeat itself. And IRL, women didn’t vacuum in heels June Cleaver-style anyway.

  • J

    @Ted #627

    Reasonable adults shouldn’t need anyone to keep them in check. They should have self-control.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Crabb: “Men, Women, Enjoying the Difference”.
    Crabb is a conservative Christian and has done a lot of counseling. It’s a good book–terrific review on Amazon, btw–if by “good” you mean makes you think. If you can discredit what he says without getting a migraine, it’s a valuable book. Because he puts it together very, very well.
    One of his things is that a woman can make her SO an alpha by trusting and appreciating him, and make him a beta by discrediting him. He gets bigger, or smaller, better in life and in bed, or not so good. Based on her actions.
    Other writers have taken a shot at this issue, but Crabb goes at it in great detail.
    Interesting, after all this, if alpha or beta are at the pleasure of the woman.

  • So do I, but as I said, I think a reframe and some more original thought on the alpha/beta spectrum is in order per my previous comment. And as I said in the 10 Reasons post, this is largely an emotional arena. I don’t see checklists or anything overly logical like it helping on a large scale unless there’s a greater level of self-knowledge and self-mastery in women regarding their own emotions. I harp on this piece a lot, because it’s key. I’d suggest that self-development content like suggested reading for women and things like it also be a bigger part of this blog’s content. That way messages like that can stick. Just my 2 cents.

    I don’t know ideologies can influence the feelings or use feelings as a way to modify behaviour, french revolution and feminism started as ideas that were marketed as a way to a better life. Susan is using a feeling “Why I don’t have a boyfriend?” to spread the message if women know that is in their power to get what they want with some modification I think at least a percentage of them will act on it. Not all of them is the same reason not everyone is a vegetarian or is doing Paleo Diet, but the option has to be there. Like someone said Susan is one of the few telling the truth but people is actually starting to get some pearls of wisdom and talk about this more often.
    I don’t have scientific proof but for example ten years ago feminist articles in Yahoo news went unchallenged now every time a dumb study that paints men as the villains and women as the pure good ones goes out I see more men protesting and telling it like it is. It takes time but Rome wasn’t built or destroyed in a day, YMMV.

    The part that I think is off is that essentially what you seem to be saying is to choose “beta” because “he’ll commit”, not because he’s valuable.

    This is an interesting point isn’t possible that commitment makes a man valuable? Or is commitment something with no value? I don’t know, even the Alpha chasers want their man to commit to only them or at least that is their wish. The Romance book never ends with the man sharing his body with other women while staying in a relationship with other men. It ends with him devoting himself to her even if he could not, unless is a book written by a man of course (I think Memoirs of a Geisha ends up this way with the leading lady becoming a mistress and happy about it…yeah right).
    My husband was step away from GTOW and I’m thankful that he committed to me instead of picking that life for himself and I try to make sure is a choice he never regrets or question. His commitment to our relationship is more valuable to me than anything in this world so I don’t see “He’ll commit” as something that makes a man less valuable for himself as a person but a wonderful trait I’m glad that exist and actively selected in a man, YMMV.

  • I love the idea of suggested readings, so if anyone has great book suggestions, or even articles, let me know.

    My choices of books are known already but worth repeating:
    *Falling in love for the right reasons by Neal Clark Jordan founder of EHarmony.

    *How to marry the man of your choice by Margaret Kent

    * The surrender wife by Laura Doyle. This was is probably controversial but I think many American women would be very enlightened, it deals with the “control freakness” that I think populate dating. Here is an excerpt of the philosophy:
    The “Surrendered Wives” movement is centered around six basic principles:
    *a wife relinquishes control of her husband’s life
    *she respects his decisions for his life
    *she practices good self-care (she does at least three things a day for her own enjoyment)
    * she also practices receiving compliments and gifts graciously
    *she practices expressing gratitude (thanking her husband for the things he does)
    *a surrendered wife is not afraid to show her vulnerability and take the feminine approach
    Continuing in an abusive, alcoholic, or adulterous relationship is not promoted or condoned.

    I think those three I had read some others but they weren’t as good or educated and they didn’t had a lot of tools. I also think having girls in a diet of self help books should help them a lot, since most of them just feed the narcissism and they are written with women doing horrible things (like cheating) and coming on top because “It was meant to be” Looking at you Paulo Coelho Brida! :p So those are my two cents. If I remember any other I will say so.

    • @Ana

      Thanks for the suggestions. I think I’ll do a post focusing on the best books out there for women.

  • Herb

    @Ana

    The surrender wife by Laura Doyle. This was is probably controversial but I think many American women would be very enlightened, it deals with the “control freakness” that I think populate dating. Here is an excerpt of the philosophy:

    My copy got in from Amazon last week and it’s next up. If people want, I can provide a book report in a week or so.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan & Anacaona

    Thanks for the clarification- I see that on some things we are on the same page, and on some things we probably weren’t.

    I want to address part of your response to me, and tie it into something that Anacaona, because when I was 21-22 and just out of school I could relate, and maybe this will help you understand both why young guys are thinking the way they are, and understand what needs to happen:

    But I’ve been assured many times by men here that a young guy will absolutely not choose a relationship if he has options for no-strings sex. I don’t judge any guy aspiring to do what it takes to get casual sex, but at the same time I would advise relationship-oriented women to steer clear.

    Understand that part of the sentiment here is that not only do young guys prefer casual sex for obvious reasons, but there’s a pretty loose definition of a relationship when you’re that age, especially when you’re fresh out of a college environment, and often times for many years after the fact. Call me jaded for saying this, but for a lot of girls 22-28 don’t actually NEED official commitment these days except for status reasons. They make their own money, and have their own path to walk in life and career just like young guys do, and they want to date around, just like young guys do. Guys come to understand this, and some learn really quickly when a girlfriend they thought was really serious bails because she “needs to see what’s out there”. Everyone dates more before they marry these days. I think it was OffTheCuff who asked “for how long?” when you brought up Grace wanting a commitment. When you’re 22, it’s kind of like, what’s the point if part of your being in a relationship is about putting the title of boyfriend to your name to make her feel better about sleeping with the guy (you) that she happens to be attracted to right now. Forgive me for being so blunt as to say that at that age, it’s like playing house for a while because things rarely last all that long. This is why the disconnect- the girl only really needs to keep up appearances with this type of thing, and a guy is still expected to deliver her a relationship that meets her expectations, at least until one or both of you decides it’s over (very likely). Not such a great deal for a dude at 22-25, because there are many more years left in life to ACTUALLY have a house and be responsible for everyone under it’s roof, not just play house.

    This is an interesting point isn’t possible that commitment makes a man valuable? Or is commitment something with no value? I don’t know, even the Alpha chasers want their man to commit to only them or at least that is their wish.

    For you, maybe it’s valuable, but at a purely human level, everyone would rather be valued for what they ARE more than what they can DO for someone. Maybe I am generalizing too much with that statement, but I know I want that to be my value to people (male and female). Committing to someone is something you do and maintain, not something that is inherent in who you are.

    So here’s where Anacaona’s comment above ties in with yours, Susan:
    Being a candidate based on the fact that you will commit is not as valuable, in my mind, as being desired purely because you’re desirable. As a guy, you want to have a girl by your side that would be there just because she wants you, and for whom the stamp of approval (“relationship”, “marriage”) isn’t even in the top 5 (maybe not even the top 10) reasons she would want to be with you long term. This might even be why so much of the manosphere focuses so hard on alpha- because their stereotypical alpha is valued whether he commits or not.

    • @BroHamlet

      When you’re 22, it’s kind of like, what’s the point if part of your being in a relationship is about putting the title of boyfriend to your name to make her feel better about sleeping with the guy (you) that she happens to be attracted to right now. Forgive me for being so blunt as to say that at that age, it’s like playing house for a while because things rarely last all that long.

      OK, that helps me understand. I agree, it is really like playing house, and being in a relationship for people in their early 20s is certainly some kind of placeholder, a way of biding time that for any number of reasons feels like the most attractive option at the time.

      It’s also true that having a boyfriend is a status marker for women – in fact, I would go so far as to say that many women feel ashamed if they don’t have one. This probably drives a lot of women to seek relationships with men they’re not all that crazy about. The women we call serial monogamists are those who, upon ending one relationship, audition all their orbiters for promotion to boyfriend, and rarely go two weeks before becoming “official” with someone new. I know several young women like this.

      It seems as if the real working definition of alpha you’re using is a man who is unwilling to commit. It’s a sort of shortcut to social proof – whether or not he has other options, his refusing to “settle” for sex with one woman implies that he does. I suspect that there are many guys calling themselves alpha who actually don’t have sex very often. I know for a fact that’s true for some PUAs – there were descriptions of guys like that in The Game. IOW, I think the stereotypical alpha is rare. The data tells us this – on campuses where a third of guys are in fraternities, only 2% hit 10 sexual partners in college (and that includes oral). That means a lot of guys talking about sex rather than having it.

      Also, I have a strong sense that we’re drawing too stark a line between alpha and beta males. My own circle of male acquaintances in their early to mid-20s is less than 100. It includes some fratty types. Only a couple meet your definition of alpha as a man who is desirable and who women will flock to despite his unwillingness to commit. Several (around 10) are in LTRs with girls they are clearly in love with. That leaves around 90 guys who are not in relationships, don’t appear to want to be in relationships, and who get lucky every so often – maybe a few times a year – with a ONS. Or maybe they hook up with some chick for a couple of months and then end it. They seem quite content with this arrangement, and enjoy the freedom to hang with their boys without the responsibilities of a relationship. I’ve also noted that among friend groups there is a fair amount of FWB that goes on – and it can get pretty incestuous. In one coed group of a dozen or so kids, I’m pretty sure every permutation and combination of individuals has had sex. In this way, people can do a fair amount of hooking up without even adding significantly to their number.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    Forgot this part. Second paragraph should have read:

    I want to address part of your response to me, and tie it into something that Anacaona said…and understand what needs to happen to bridge the gap between the interests of young guys and girls:

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan
    I think what Leap Of Beta was trying to explain (and it’s a world view that I subscribe to), is that no person on this Earth is 100% altruistic. Even when we help other people, there’s usually something to be gained from it. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Good incentives that lead to good behavior has a positive effect on everyone.

    He’s just trying to remove the rainbows and unicorns version that a lot of people are led to believe growing up.

    • @Jimmy

      He’s just trying to remove the rainbows and unicorns version that a lot of people are led to believe growing up.

      Maybe, but insisting that manipulation and influence are morally equivalent is dangerous, in my view. As it happens, I’ve seen Leap go to great lengths to defend the practice of instilling dread, so I have that context in which to view his argument.

  • This might even be why so much of the manosphere focuses so hard on alpha- because their stereotypical alpha is valued whether he commits or not.

    Well you know my opinion of Alpha’s and I don’t know for me a person without word (which ties with the idea of commitment) is merely a mammal that can speak.
    Of course in my country there is always the idea that you might marry the person you are dating no matter how young (because the idea of dating for fun or not to be lonely was alien to my generation of course this is changing as we speak) so a guy might look hot but if I don’t think I can make a life with him I don’t desire him. I know different strokes and all that but I don’t believe on casual dating, in fact I hated dating with a fire of two thousand suns, trying to find out every person’s intentions, mental health, family background, compatibility….was exhausting even my elementary school crush was someone I was thinking “we will make it?”, crazy I know but I rarely ever do anything that I think it won’t be long term. So again if you think a woman that wants to be with you to have a good time without thinking on the future is more attractive than someone that thinks of you as someone worth it of spent the rest of your life with and raise a family with (and pregnant with my boy the idea that this world will have another one like my husband fills me with a sense of joy I can’t even describe) and grow old with, that is okay.
    But I think Susan is just awaking up a different type of measure for whatever kids do this day that I hope they don’t call love because that ain’t, YMMV.

  • Well you know my opinion of Alpha’s and I don’t know for me a person without word (which ties with the idea of commitment) is merely a mammal that can speak.

    And I meant to add and I’m not into bestiality. Commitment is part of who a person is and lasts as long as you live while attractiveness/hotness and even desirability is a temporary trait, IMO.

  • Ted D

    Wow the moral equivalency showing here is just crazy to me. No wonder we are where we are now as a society, when many people cannot see the difference between good, neutral, and evil.

    Surely everyone that does a single good deed is getting something out of it. Even the most devout Christian is hoping his/her good deeds will get them into Heaven! But, the point in all of this is how one goes about manipulating or influencing others. I’m all about influencing people to be better, and I’m pretty damn vocal about it in my circle of friends. But, I have never once tried to influence them to be better by being sneaky or deceptive. If I see them acting in a shitty manner, I call them on it. I don’t plan a way to subtly modify their behavior to fix it. It isn’t my job to “fix” them, but I certainly see it as my job to call them out on it. Why? Well they decided to be my friend, and along with that comes my opinion, whether they like it or not. I don’t go snooping into every aspect of their lives looking for something, but when I see something obvious (as in someone cheating or stealing) I am the one they KNOW will tell them they are acting like shit. And, I expect the same from them.

    Lets say two people have a common friend that has become a hard drug addict. One of them confronts the friend and tells them to clean up or they will be forced to either break off their friendship, and/or turn them into the authorities to be forced into rehab. The second friend instead tries to talk their friend into voluntarily going to rehab, by using manipulation and overt tactics. Both are obviously working for the same good thing, to save their friend. But, which one is influencing and which one is manipulating? If this were my situation to deal with, I would take the first path. Bluntly tell them to clean up or I will do what is necessary to help them. At least my way, the person gets the chance to decide for themselves to fix it, where if I were to try and manipulate them to the decision, it wouldn’t really be THEIR decision at all. The first method is honest and in the open, the second method is devious and hidden, and regardless of the outcome is IMO not the correct way to help.

    I don’t hide the fact that this is how I operate, and yet the friends I have are closer to me than much of my family. They may dislike some of the things I do, but they respect that I am blunt and open about them. And they know that they can count on me to say it to them if/when necessary.

    You know how most every group of friends has an asshole? Yeah, I’m pretty sure that for my circle of friends, I’m the asshole. But I’m THEIR asshole. (Shamelessly stolen from Hot Tub Time Machine)

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    It seems as if the real working definition of alpha you’re using is a man who is unwilling to commit. It’s a sort of shortcut to social proof – whether or not he has other options, his refusing to “settle” for sex with one woman implies that he does

    Nope. My personal list of alpha requirements is a mile long, because most of the “alphas” that I have been around were self-made men in many respects, and they have been willing to fail to succeed (some even be low-status and work their way up) to get where they are. To me, the sex part is just icing on the cake, and if he’s not pursuing anything that’s actually cool and adds value to the world (not just money to his own pockets, either), I’m not impressed. And of course douchebags need not apply.

    One thing I don’t see the manosphere saying is that the social proof shortcut you mention is valid- they are all about how much you are getting, not just being “selective”. To them, if you’re not getting any, you’re still a loser. The manosphere is somewhat correct though in saying that an alpha will be desired by a sizeable percentage of women with no real requirement for commitment- usually those are women just below his station in the market. By their philosophy, if alpha is the highest standard of value (between both men and women) even women below his level will be pretty impressive in the scope of things. Truth be told, they are right to some degree. You’re not going to see them tell someone to aspire to less than the best, and of course there’s the whole “fake it till you make it” philosophy. There’s a lot of insecurity in that- sounds like a quest for unconditional love if you ask me, and it’s small wonder that the sphere seems to attract so many guys that never felt like they were valued early on in life.

    @Anacaona

    Google disagrees:

    com·mit·ment/kəˈmitmənt/
    Noun:
    The act of committing or the state of being committed

    Commitment is something you choose to do and honor, and you’re not typical as compared to girls here in the States. By what you are saying it seems to be a very different cultural environment here.

    • @BroHamlet

      To me, the sex part is just icing on the cake, and if he’s not pursuing anything that’s actually cool and adds value to the world (not just money to his own pockets, either), I’m not impressed. And of course douchebags need not apply.

      Well that puts you and me on the same page, but you’ll run afoul of most Game guys and all PUAs with that definition.

      One thing I don’t see the manosphere saying is that the social proof shortcut you mention is valid- they are all about how much you are getting, not just being “selective”. To them, if you’re not getting any, you’re still a loser.

      Agreed, but the number of men who are getting that many partners is tiny. If a player can get a couple of dozen women a year, or even a dozen, then how can a guy with 10 lifetime partners be alpha? The manosphere doesn’t really allow for men to choose fewer partners, at least when they’re single.

      We’re going round in circles defining alpha. Personally, I think # of sexual partners has very little to do with it. I find players pathetic and weak, unproductive and parasitic. They’re the dregs of society, IMO, so I’m not about to grant them any kind of status. For the record, women who go after players are every bit as low status.

      Status depends on what you value. Many might claim Snooki is high status as a celebrity, and I find that laughable. My values are clearly at odds with those who pursue or practice a promiscuous lifestyle. I may have to watch the SMP go into the toilet, but I don’t have to approve.

  • @ Susan, Jimmy, and Ted
    “Even when we help other people, there’s usually something to be gained from it. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Good incentives that lead to good behavior has a positive effect on everyone.

    He’s just trying to remove the rainbows and unicorns version that a lot of people are led to believe growing up.”

    Exactly.

    Look, even in the Ted’s Christian example and from some of his writing at other places, he’s said very bluntly that he thinks people should be better people. The Christian belief system works that way.

    This is great for people to preach. You call it influence, I call it manipulation. Either way, if people follow the Christian worldview they will, generally, be happier, nicer, ‘better’ people. They also are following a moral code that makes it so that life is far, far easier for the one preaching and doing the influencing as well.

    You can call it whatever you want, but the fact remains that everyone influences other people around them to serve their own needs, and that isn’t a bad thing. It creates stability by everyone working under the same rules for the same purpose; which is probably the most important factor for successfully having and raising kids.

    @ Susan
    As for this:

    “And I will defend everything that I own and have created from the world that is constantly trying to take it from me or take me for a free ride

    This is a very telling statement about your worldview. I don’t know what else to say, so I’ll leave it here. I apologize for offending you.”

    Maybe its the difference between men and women. Maybe its the difference between red pill and blue pill. Maybe its just red pill men and even red pill women don’t need to worry about it.

    But at every point there’s someone that wants to take things you’ve worked for away from you. Taxes, rent, fake friends, women on dates, in relationships, in divorces looking to get all they can from you, employers putting in road blocks, trying not to pay you, give you vacation, give you a promotion, a raise. People trying to deny your achievements or use your work/achievements to further their own goals. I’ve dealt with most of these, and seen all of them and more.

    Men have to defend what they’ve created. There’s always a hand reaching for it to take it away, or a jaded stranger/false friend/family member waiting on the sides with a smirk to watch you fail at your dream like they did.

    Maybe these experiences I’ve had are amplified by the fact that I’m living my dream, working in theatre and able to pay bills doing it, and an independent contractor where I have to go from job to job knowing my worth and having to prove it each time so that I continue to work and don’t get screwed over by an employer that realizes they have more power in the arrangement than I do. If that’s the price I have to pay for the freedom I get in my job and the passion I have for it, that’s fine.

    But I suspect most of those factors are there for every man, even if not to the extent I experience them.

    • @Leap

      But at every point there’s someone that wants to take things you’ve worked for away from you. Taxes, rent, fake friends, women on dates, in relationships, in divorces looking to get all they can from you, employers putting in road blocks, trying not to pay you, give you vacation, give you a promotion, a raise. People trying to deny your achievements or use your work/achievements to further their own goals. I’ve dealt with most of these, and seen all of them and more.

      Men have to defend what they’ve created. There’s always a hand reaching for it to take it away, or a jaded stranger/false friend/family member waiting on the sides with a smirk to watch you fail at your dream like they did.

      I don’t think this has anything to do with sex differences. There are just as many women facing the obstacles you describe as men. I could rewrite your comment for women by substituting men trying to take our bodies through coercion rather than consent, pump and dump, cheat in marriage, etc.

      I do think this is a very negative world view, and I think it leads to a sort of victim mentality that is going to interfere with your ability to find happiness.

      Here’s how I prefer to think of the things you mentioned.

      Taxes:

      It is right and just that I pay taxes. My taxes, which are paid into a democracy, produce the highest standard of living in the world, not just for me, but for every citizen. I don’t want to live in a bunker that protects just me and mine. I want to live in a community, where no one is hungry or disqualified for medical care. We don’t have that, but it’s worth aiming for, IMO. “Every man for himself” would create a living hell on earth in a matter of weeks.

      Rent and other living expenses:

      Why shouldn’t I pay rent or a mortgage? If I work hard and produce, I will be paid according to my contribution and may use that reward to buy things that make me comfortable. Would you be willing to open your door today to any homeless person because they deserve housing without paying rent?

      Fake friends:

      Of course there are opportunists who will take advantage of you. That is why you must fight back when you are attacked. I learned that lesson the hard way as a blogger. Ignoring people who would do you harm makes you appear weak and vulnerable. The answer is simple: dispose of fake friends and those who would harm you. Remove them from your life.

      Women looking to take you for a ride:

      See above. No one is forcing you to date anyone or be in a relationship. If you believe this about the female sex it’s not going to be possible for you to trust one of us, so a relationship would be impossible anyway. I would also add that it’s not possible to be suspicious and charming at the same time, so this view is going to be a major cockblock as well.

      Employers putting in road blocks, trying not to pay you, give you vacation, give you a promotion, a raise:

      I’ve never experienced this. I’ve always accepted employment when I was satisfied with the trade of income and benefits for work. I think the best example of where this does happen is with illegal immigrants, and that is shameful. I would also remind you that we live in a capitalist society. The employer is accountable to the owners of the company – the shareholders – to maximize profit. That means getting good work from people for the least possible investment. Pay too little and you lose the talent, pay too much and you piss off the shareholders. It’s not a perfect system, but it is the best in the world. No employer should be obligated in any way to provide promotions or raises. If you’re not getting what you feel you deserve, you are free to go and peddle your talents elsewhere. Some jobs are low paying. There’s just not enough demand for those services to outstrip the supply.

      People trying to deny your achievements or use your work/achievements to further their own goals:

      See Fake Friends. Schadenfreude is part of human nature. We all do it to some extent.

      All of us must work to defend what we create, including our families. I haven’t found it necessary to be vigilant and looking over my shoulder to accomplish this. I don’t want dread and mistrust in my life, and I’ve never had the need to either inflict or experience it.

      To be honest, I feel like you’ve described life in the USSR.

  • Ted D

    Leap – “But I suspect most of those factors are there for every man, even if not to the extent I experience them.”

    I firmly believe that those factors come into play for every human being that ever lived. However, what really tells you about their character is how they handle those factors.

    And before I start being called “Christian Ted”, please keep in mind that I very rarely ever bring up religion in these conversations. I’m not the type of person to preach uninvited, and I feel that my faith is a personal matter. But I feel like there is a line of division between many people on this discussion based on who has some “faith” and who does not. I’m not trying to pimp the Christian way here, I’m just trying to give you my perspective and a little idea of where I’m coming from.

    I’ve also done two stints in security, one physical and one in IT. I’m the guy that got paid to find exploits and bring them up to be fixed before someone could take advantage of it. Hell, when I was in college I worked part time at a grocery store that had a bank in it. One day I was out on cart duty, and found an unsealed bank envelope with many 100 dollar bills in it, and no name. I immediately walked into the store, went to the bank, and turned it in. The teller remembered giving a customer $3k in hard cold cash for his vacation, and that was his envelope. They contacted him and he picked it up without even kicking me a $5 for lunch. But, it didn’t matter to me because I felt good about doing the right thing. Even though he was a douche, I’m sure his wife and family appreciated my effort. And hell, even if they never found out about it, I still did the right thing.

  • Tom

    Esoc,
    My point is only that some manosphere types constantly refrain that women are barely rational, the need to be gamed constantly, if you show any weakness or sadness or weariness or any beta, BAM, she’s gone, cheating, whatever. 1) That is not true, belied by experience, etc. 2) If it were true, why would you want a woman at all?

    Some are at least logically consistent and say “No sane man does want a woman except for sex.”
    __________________
    Good points
    I think the trick for a man is to find a woman he likes hanging out with, even if sex was not on the menu. Sex is not the point of a relationship, it is the privledge, the icing.
    Of Course the macho guys from the manophere would disagree, but then what would one expect from the macho ones?

  • Ramble

    My taxes, which are paid into a democracy, produce the highest standard of living in the world, not just for me, but for every citizen.

    Susan, to be clear, I’d cosign almost your entire comment, with one exception. We had the highest standard of living in the world before we ever had an income tax (though, other taxes, and tariffs, did exist, but, proportional gov’t spending was much, MUCH lower). And, after the (first) income tax was repealed we continued to have the highest standard of living in the world.

    Also, I noticed that you did not address Divorce.

    • @Ramble

      Re taxes: I don’t see how we could have excellent infrastructure, education or a military without taxes. I may not like how my tax dollars are always spent, and of course I hate to see them go up, but I do believe it’s my responsibility as a citizen who benefits 24/7 from the tax base.

      Re divorce: Leap’s comment was written as if all women will try to rape your ass in divorce court. I didn’t want to go into that black hole again. Besides, if Leap loathes the behavior of women on dates and in relationships I don’t think we need worry about marriage any time soon.

  • @ Susan
    “I do think this is a very negative world view, and I think it leads to a sort of victim mentality that is going to interfere with your ability to find happiness.”

    Meh. Not really. I see these things and I accept them. I see them as challenges to overcome. I have cast myself in the role of a Midwest hero, ready to overcome the challenges, build a better life, seduce the beautiful dame, and life life happily ever after.

    I simply acknowledge the realistic challenges in doing so. I refuse to sugar coat anything for myself, I examine the moral constructs of ‘good and evil’ to look at what was put there in place by a society that I acknowledge has every ambition to take what success I do make and turn it into a gain for people I’ve never met and don’t care about. Considering that I have a fairly wide view of people that I care about, trying to serve and better the lives of the audiences I work for with enriched, intelligent, and beautiful theatre; I don’t think that this is particularly selfish.

    I want to give the world exactly what I think it deserves of what I make of my life. The rest I want to continue to belong to me and mine.

  • Google disagrees:

    I think you used only two definitions of commitment here are more from the other God of our times: Wikipedia dictionary 😉

    The act or an instance of committing, putting in charge, keeping, or trust, especially:
    The act of sending a legislative bill to committee for review
    Official consignment sending a person to prison or a mental health institution
    Promise or agreement to do something in the future, especially:
    Assuming a financial obligation at a future date
    Being bound emotionally/intellectually to a course of action or to another person/other persons.
    Perpetration, in a negative manner, as in a crime or mistake.
    State of being pledged or engaged.
    The trait of sincerity and focused purpose.

    The act of being locked away, such as in an institution for the mentally ill or jail.

    Being and trait are part of nature for some people and I think Susan has linked plenty of studies linking lack of commitment with personality traits. Again I might be relatively young but I had spent many years observing people lack of commitment is a lack of something in someone’s make up and it never comes alone.I can bet you donuts to dollars that the same girl that flakes on dates also is unreliable on other aspects of their lives. You men like Ted and Megaman (and I suspect Herb and the now absent Filrabat) are more willing to not say yes to something unless they are 100% sure they are going to do it, no matter what and that bleeds on work, friends, and love. Of course I suspect this is one of those agree to disagree matters, YMMV.

  • @ Ted
    Don’t worry, I’m no where near labeling you as ‘Christian Ted.’ Christianity was simply a helpful tool for showing how people that claim to act ‘altruistically’ for the good of society will continually have something to gain even if they never acknowledge or think about it as such. You claim that the ignorance of those selfish gains makes all the difference in the world, I claim that not knowing the acts you do have unseen repercussions is ignorance and that ignorance is no excuse – that either way you’re manipulating others to serve your own ends.

    • Christianity was simply a helpful tool for showing how people that claim to act ‘altruistically’ for the good of society will continually have something to gain

      Here’s what Jesus (foremost authority?) said about altruism:

      Matthew 6: 1-4

      Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

      So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

      Here’s a simplification that is apt, I think. All the world’s great religions attempt to tackle two sources of inquiry:

      1. How did we get here and what happens when we leave?

      2. What is the blueprint for living a good and moral life?

      The answer to the second question is rooted in compassion for others. Without that our time here is meaningless. I may not practice it very well, but I recognize the importance of striving for that.

  • Ted D

    Leap – “I claim that not knowing the acts you do have unseen repercussions is ignorance and that ignorance is no excuse – that either way you’re manipulating others to serve your own ends.”

    Oh, I get where you are coming from here. It sort of sounds like “ignorance of the law is not an excuse to break it” so to speak. I’m on the fence here though. As much as I complain about female behavior, I can’t help but feel like it isn’t entirely their fault.

    It’s funny actually. One of the things that drove me away from the Church was the inconsistency of issues like these. I remember asking one of the nuns teaching bible class one day what God intends to do with people that were never taught about Him, for instance someone living in a jungle in South America that still believes in and worships a nature god. Her answer wasn’t an answer at all, but was “it is for Him to decide”. I call BS on this, because to me it makes NO sense to punish someone for doing something they have no idea is wrong/bad/immoral/evil, and I felt like her answer was intended to simply shut me up, which seemed to be pretty common to any of my questions. 😛

    So, we differ here as well. I won’t hold someone accountable for a mistake they made IF they had no idea it was a mistake in the first place. There are plenty of examples for your view though (handgun law differences state to state come to mind. Where in PA it may be legal for me to carry a handgun, if I cross a state line with it I’m a criminal. To me that is completely ridiculous, but ignorance is no excuse…) Of course part of that problem is our legal system is NOT about justice at all, it is about process, procedure, and results. Now, I’m a process kinda guy, so I have great respect for good processes. However, I believe our legal processes are no longer based on a solid foundation, and because of it the actual focus has shifted from justice to results, justice be damned.

    And we are still circling around the difference between influence and manipulation. Yes, I whole heartedly agree that we influence everyone we contact. But that is still a far cry from deceptive tactics used to get what you want from someone. If I influence you to go to a club because I want to go too and you have a car, the final decision still rests with you. I’m making it clear what I want from you, and you can decide if you are willing to give it. However, if I were to tell you there will be a single young lady there I know that you would really like to get you to take me there, I have stolen your agency to make the proper decision by hiding the fact that my motivation is really to go to the club. Do you really not see the difference between those two?

  • “Leap’s comment was written as if all women will try to rape your ass in divorce court. I didn’t want to go into that black hole again. Besides, if Leap loathes the behavior of women on dates and in relationships I don’t think we need worry about marriage any time soon.”

    Oh please lets avoid a divorce discussion. They’ve already happened other places and were much better served in those black holes of the internet and to not be seen again here.

    As for relationships and dates – I don’t loathe them, I love them. I just stopped buying into the idea that resources spent without her feeling like she’s earned them will get you anywhere.

    So I have fun. I play. I lead. We each grow a little bit. And I make sure we both enjoy it.

  • @ Ted
    “If I influence you to go to a club because I want to go too and you have a car, the final decision still rests with you. I’m making it clear what I want from you, and you can decide if you are willing to give it. However, if I were to tell you there will be a single young lady there I know that you would really like to get you to take me there, I have stolen your agency to make the proper decision by hiding the fact that my motivation is really to go to the club. Do you really not see the difference between those two?”

    Bullshit. The second you have stolen no agency on making a proper decision. The person is still in full responsibility for their actions and their consequences. Any halfway intelligent person could tell that you have a reason for influencing the choice and act accordingly. I’m saying any person should take that same consideration for any influence – anyone influencing you has something to gain even if it not apparent to you or even to themselves.

    Also, I see nothing wrong with influencing others by adding incentives and showing them what they have to gain from following your influence. The ONLY time I would consider that deceitful manipulation instead of normal manipulation is if there was actual lies told. Otherwise you’re placing far too much power on yourself and really taking away power and responsibility for the other person to intelligently make their own choices and face the responsibilities within those choices.

    As such, no, I don’t see a difference in your examples. The first we go to the club and have a good time. The second we go to the club, have a good time, and I have a shot with an attractive woman. If we both get what we want either way, what the hell does it matter?

  • ” Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.”

    And there’s their gain. Doesn’t sound altruistic to me.

    • And there’s their gain. Doesn’t sound altruistic to me.

      There’s a lot of research that shows that the quickest route to happiness is to perform an act of charity. It just feels really, really good to help a brother out. That’s the morality humans are programmed with. We’re wired to want to cooperate and live communally. It increases survival. That’s what all behaviors, all emotions, and all relationships are about. Promulgating the species.

      There are some rogue genes in the population – narcissism, sociopathy, Machiavellianism – that have survived so far, despite the battles and wars they’ve spawned. With birth control and abortion, those genes will be under considerable evolutionary pressure from here on out. On the other hand, these men could destroy the world in an hour and render us extinct.

  • @ Susan
    “It just feels really, really good to help a brother out. That’s the morality humans are programmed with. We’re wired to want to cooperate and live communally. It increases survival. That’s what all behaviors, all emotions, and all relationships are about. Promulgating the species.”

    Which is what I’ve been saying.

    • @Leap

      Which is what I’ve been saying.

      I didn’t hear that. I got the sense you were opting out of a cooperative community model and girding yourself against attempts by others to steal from you. Trust is an essential ingredient of cooperation.

  • @ Susan

    Haha, nope. Influencing others to your viewpoint creates all the benefits you mention. I was just pointing out that, even if influencing the other person is for that person’s good, its still for the gain of the first person doing the influencing as well.

    I simply don’t believe in real altruism. I believe people may act with altruistic intentions, but that even if they don’t know/acknowledge their gains, they have something to gain. It could be a good feeling, social stability, anything at all. They simply placed the worth of those things over whatever resources (time, energy, money, emotions) they’re giving away.

    So. If all influence is done for the sake of an individual gaining something they perceive as being of more worth than the sacrifice, all influence is for personal gain. Then influence = manipulation.

    • @Leap

      If all influence is done for the sake of an individual gaining something they perceive as being of more worth than the sacrifice, all influence is for personal gain. Then influence = manipulation.

      What’s alarming about this is that I feel it’s a thinly veiled justification for behaving in a manipulative way. To be clear, per the dictionary and society’s definition: underhanded, devious, deceitful. You’ve attempted to establish a moral equivalency to rationalize the use of those tactics.

      The truth is that the DSM (and society by extension) considers both the tactics, as well as your view of them as morally neutral, sociopathic. It’s a coercive rather than cooperative approach of interrelating.

      I actually believe that you do not live this way, but that you are flirting with these “dark” tactics (as well as their peddlers) and playing devil’s advocate (literally) in these discussions.

  • @ Susan

    “I actually believe that you do not live this way, but that you are flirting with these “dark” tactics (as well as their peddlers) and playing devil’s advocate (literally) in these discussions.”

    Probably all true.

    I self admit that I am on a journey to change and grow. I am experimenting in both thoughts, outlooks, attitudes, and actions to see how they benefit me and achieve my goals. My goals are what I just stated – a life of quality and happiness for myself and those I care about. When I start discussions like this one it very literally is me exploring how I feel about these trains of thoughts – I learn and grow much better through contrast and competition in discussions like this. I doubt I’m nearly as…. cold? Calculating? As some of these probably make me sound, I’d describe myself as loyal and passionate. I’m just adding a couple layers of people having to earn that where before I gave it out for free.

    I’m not sure how I feel about the terms ‘good’ and ‘evil’. This is part of that thought exploration. Right now I act in a way most people would consider ‘moral’ but I do so simply because its the way that brings me the most happiness, quality of life, and stability in the long term. It thinks right and feels right – I simply could care less about whether society deems it right or not. I’m lucky that, for the most part, it does. I could sacrifice long term for short term, but considering I’m a working artist without a mass of resources built up, that would be foolhardy at best.

    Anyways, I am definitely striving to become Alpha and enjoying it. I have a vision of who I want to be, and the journey there is fun for the most part. I hope to find a long term partner to enjoy that with me, but so far there have been friends and a couple females that have briefly joined me on my path.

  • @ Susan
    I should also probably mention that after taking the red pill I realized all of my past relationships and majority of the FWB/ONSs I’ve had are women with….. lets just say ‘parental issues.’ Add in some of the trauma that’s happened with them, my own divorced parents, and simply the way I was raised and I see some of the issues (though much more minor) that is discussed at The Rawness on the reader letters. I was able to draw lines with them, unlike MANY co-dependents, but not as soon as I should have for the health of all involved.

    So I’ve been reading and educating myself on how to deal with those personal issues WHILE also learning game. Self calibrating my life, as it were, to make myself that best man in my head.

    I’m very much wired to lead, and care for those that I lead. I simply am slowly developing the judgmental abilities to determine who is actually worth the time and energy of being led. And learning how to attract those people at the same time.

    Talk about a mind stretched from its workout!

    • @Leap

      Thanks for sharing where your head is on this – it sounds like you are on a path to self-discovery and that is a great thing. Sometimes we need to push the boundaries to see where our comfort zone begins and ends.

      It’s very clear to me from your comments that you are a good man who will make a great partner for the right woman. I totally support your right to be very selective.

    • @Leap of a beta

      Dogsquat has shared before that he has often been attracted to women with lots of issues. I don’t recall the details, but that would be a great thing for him to post about on his blog.

  • ” A discussion/post (FOR GIRLS!!!) on properly emotionally escalating with minimal physical escalation would probably be *extremely* helpful.

    Message received. I’ll have to think on this. Hope has weighed in, but if any other women here have successfully done this, I’d love to hear about it. I don’t have any personal experience with this. :-/”

    Susan, as you know – IC and I went pretty slow physically and I was essentially the “virgin bride.” Long before we were really physically, we’d had to ramp up our relationship because of external factors – it was very possible that I wouldn’t get a visa to stay in the country. IC on date 6 or 7 told me that he’d marry me if it might I could stay in the country. I was pretty honest and open with him – and I think that certainly helped. But to be honest, as I did eventually end up marrying him – I have no real evidence regarding whether this is an effective method – it just happened to work this time.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    Well played, Grace. I really enjoyed this post. I’ve experienced similar situations, but I simply stop responding to the cad’s calls/ texts. Thankfully, I’ve had a few serious dates with nice gentlemen who set the bar high.

  • Susan…”I don’t see how we could have excellent infrastructure, education or a military without taxes”

    To focus on the first item: an awful lot of our infrastructure is NOT tax-funded. Telecommunications networks are privately funded, as is the national freight rail system and the pipeline network. Ditto for the power grid in most place. Water & sewer systems are usually owned by pseudo-government “authorities” but paid for via user charges rather than taxes. Air traffic control is a mix of user fees (ticket and fuel taxes) with additional contributions coming from the general tax fund. Roads, yeah, tax-funded, much of this being fuel taxes.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Taxes! Oh man, we’re starting to get into a subject I like….

    Most education is not paid for at a federal level. Most Dept of Edu spending is loans for college. I am highly skeptical this is the best use of our money, as I highly doubt post-secondary education is as good a value-added as people claim it to be. Europe invested massively in post-secondary in the 90s and 00s, and productivity growth, IIRC, lagged behind the US, because we had far greater investment in the various high-tech sectors that delivered REAL productivity growth.

    We do not pay taxes for roads at the federal level for the most part.

    Most people do not pay that much income tax in general. Most of tax incidence is actually payroll tax, which means most of your tax dollars at the federal level is going to pay for Social Security and Medicare. In my opinion, this is a HUGE waste of resources. Not that the elderly and disabled do not need assistance, but the elderly have the lowest poverty rate and are receiving the lion’s share of your tax dollars, especially on high-dollar medical care of little worth to people with such low life expectancies, while child poverty is the highest in the country and probably the Western world.

    Other than the various social insurance taxes and spending, the bulk of federal income tax dollars, which keep in mind is a far, far, far smaller tax incidence than your payroll taxes, goes to maintaing a large military. Some rather much question the need of this military. I am of the opinion that massive redundancy and absolute superiority is a very good thing. I am also very annoyed that people rely on simple things heuristics like “well we spend more than everyone else, so that must mean it’s enough and we can cut back.”

    That being said, it is probably not the highest value-added to buy a couple more AIM-9Xs instead of using that money to put a whole group of kids through an entire 13 years of schooling. But the solution to that should be to raise additional tax dollars, because buying the latest Iphone 4G x 1,020 or whatever is far lower value-added. You were doing without that a few years ago, pretttttty sure you can go a little while longer without it.

  • Iggles

    These thread moves so fast, it’s hard to keep up! Sorry if this has already been said…

    deti @ 126,

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I don’t know a single sexually active woman (including high status high SMV women) who has not had at least one cad pump and dump her, which she explains by saying “he was just so beautiful I couldn’t HELP myself!”

    This is ridiculous statement. You cannot presume to know the sexual history of every woman you come across. Perhaps the women in your particular social circle have all have this experience but I’m skeptical. It’s more likely the ones who have and have told you they did, has skewed your perception all every woman you know.

    I have not been pumped and dumped by a cad. I don’t sleep with guys because I can’t “help myself”. I think this is classic example of selection bias. NAWALT but you only take note of the ones who fit your prescribed views!

    • @Iggles

      This is ridiculous statement. You cannot presume to know the sexual history of every woman you come across. Perhaps the women in your particular social circle have all have this experience but I’m skeptical.

      What makes the statement even more ridiculous is that Deti is around 40 (I think), married for many years, with kids. The idea of his hearing sexual admissions from women aged 18-24 is more than a little disturbing. As far as I can tell, Deti gets his information from other men online, a dubious source of data to say the least.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Ted

    If I influence you to go to a club because I want to go too and you have a car, the final decision still rests with you. I’m making it clear what I want from you, and you can decide if you are willing to give it. However, if I were to tell you there will be a single young lady there I know that you would really like to get you to take me there, I have stolen your agency to make the proper decision by hiding the fact that my motivation is really to go to the club. Do you really not see the difference between those two?

    I’m with Leap, there’s no difference between the two. In each case, there’s no deception or lying going on. You just chose to be swayed by the added incentive he gave you in the second example.

  • Susan said:

    “Dogsquat has shared before that he has often been attracted to women with lots of issues. I don’t recall the details, but that would be a great thing for him to post about on his blog.”
    _____________________________________

    Message received, Aye Aye!

    I’ll bash it out in the next couple days. I’ve got a few hours of free time now, and I was trying to write something funny. Part of Red Pilling yourself is accompanied by a strange and terrible depression – but it shouldn’t be. It’s a lot of fun (for men and women), once you get the hang of it. That’s something that’s hard to convey without sounding like you’re bragging. So much is contextual and lost in explanation.

    Arrgh.

    Guess I’ll procrastinate on HUS until The Muse moves me out of the friendzone, that fickle bitch…..

  • SayWhaat

    If I influence you to go to a club because I want to go too and you have a car, the final decision still rests with you. I’m making it clear what I want from you, and you can decide if you are willing to give it. However, if I were to tell you there will be a single young lady there I know that you would really like to get you to take me there, I have stolen your agency to make the proper decision by hiding the fact that my motivation is really to go to the club. Do you really not see the difference between those two?

    I’m with Leap, there’s no difference between the two. In each case, there’s no deception or lying going on. You just chose to be swayed by the added incentive he gave you in the second example.

    Let’s put it this way then.

    If a pregnant girl tells you she wants a marriage and you hold the keys to commitment, the final decision is up to you. She’s making it clear what she wants from you, and you can decide if you are willing to give it. However, if she were to hide the fact that you are not the baby daddy, she has stolen your agency to make the proper decision by hiding the fact that her motivation is really to secure a provider for herself.

    There, I framed the woman as the enemy to make the example easier to understand for you. Now do you see the difference between the two?

  • Leap said:

    “Employers putting in road blocks, trying not to pay you, give you vacation, give you a promotion, a raise”

    Susan said:

    “I’ve never experienced this. I’ve always accepted employment when I was satisfied with the trade of income and benefits for work.”
    ________________________________________

    Susan, I’m with Leap on this point. It’s rampant in small businesses and contracting (meaning building stuff for people, not short-term stints with big companies).

    Before I went into the military and between my hitches, I was a landscaper. I did residential installations and renovations mostly, meaning I’d build your yard from the dirt up. My employer was whoever my client was, and getting paid was usually a battle. At least in landscaping, the margins are very thin, and while things might look okay on an accrual basis, it was sometimes a bitch to meet payroll and put gas in the trucks.

    Sometimes clients/employers sense this. I remember one guy we did a yard for – he stayed home the whole week we worked on his property. When I’d leave the foreman in charge to go sell another job or something, the client would come out and start changing stuff. He burned half a day insisting the guys build a planter bed – sure, he bought the materials, but spent about 25 man hours of my guy’s time building it. AND he wouldn’t pay for it – “I accepted your bid and I’m not paying one cent more!” Never mind that my bid didn’t account for the stupid planter bed…

    We finished that nightmare job and moved on to another. Still, the guy wouldn’t pay me. He always had a little complaint or dissatisfaction – adjust the sprinkler coverage/add a few more bushes/my wife wants another tree…do that and then I’ll pay you.

    None of this was warranty-type stuff, it was just bullshit. It went on for weeks and weeks. I was getting desperate at one point – I was owed many, many thousands of dollars, but wasn’t cashing my own paychecks, and my line of credit at Wells Fargo was maxed out from buying materials for other jobs. An accountant would’ve thought I was doing okay, but being owed money and having $18,000 in your pocket ain’t the same. Not. At. All.

    I went to his house, and hooked my tow chain to his backflow preventer (an inverted U shaped contraption of copper pipes connecting his house water to the irrigation system). I pounded on the door until he came out. I pointed to my truck, the chain, and his plumbing and said,”If you don’t put a check for the full amount in my hand right now, I’m getting in my truck and driving away. I can’t afford to take you to court, and I can’t wait for a lien on your house to pay off. That irrigation system is still mine until you pay me, and I’ll drive off with part of it right now. I need that money. My guys feed their families with this work, and I can’t pay them unless you pay me.”

    My leg was shaking, both from fear and anger – I thought the guy was going to call the cops or something, but at that point I’d rather have gone to jail than face my guys and tell them I couldn’t pay them – even thought they busted their ass for me and the money.

    Long story short, he paid me most of the money – enough to cover payroll, at least. I put a mechanic’s lean on his house for the rest, and as far as I know he still owes me about $1500.

    I got called back up into the military shortly after that and have sort of washed my hands of it – but I never forgot that lesson. Some people will fuck you if they can, and you need to budget for it.

    • @Dogsquat

      Some people will fuck you if they can, and you need to budget for it.

      What a story. I can totally see why one might come to view one’s fellow man as trying to take what he can if that was your experience.

      I guess I’m naive. Whenever I have work done on the house, the guys usually want to be paid the minute it’s done, and I know that. I always make sure there’s enough in checking to cover the amount and hand them a check at the end of the job. I can’t believe there are people who delay and delay payment. That’s theft, and I’m sure it’s incredibly stressful, as you’ve described.

      I once had house painters set my house on fire by using a torch to burn off the old paint. There was massive smoke damage and a bit of structural damage as well. When the job was finished I deducted the 5K home insurance deductible from the total. I thought that painter was going to murder me in my sleep. I told him to go ahead and sue me, but no way was I eating $5,000 when he set my house on fire using an illegal method.

      I still am not buying influence = manipulation though. 🙂

  • @Leap –

    I wonder if your small business experience has made you paradoxically more likely to help out others who are truly in need, as it has for me.

    A couple physicians I know started a small Urgent Care clinic, and I told them,”Hey, I know what a bitch this is going to be at first. If you need some help, let me know. You can pay me when you have the money.” They’ve taken me up on it a couple times, especially as the place was getting on it’s feet, and once when an employee needed some unexpected time off.

    Those docs are good guys, though, and always paid me as soon as they could. Plus, it’s not a bad thing in life to have a couple of good doctors that owe you favors – especially when they are honorable men and happy to repay you. Seriously – you should see my recommendation letters from these guys. You’d think I heal the sick by merely laying my hands, and that I raise the dead on the regular with kind words.

    Leap said:

    “I doubt I’m nearly as…. cold? Calculating? As some of these probably make me sound, I’d describe myself as loyal and passionate. I’m just adding a couple layers of people having to earn that where before I gave it out for free.”

    Dude, I’m picking up what you’re putting down. Sometimes I’m a real asshole, like a wouldn’t-piss-in-your-mouth-if-your-tongue-was-on-fire-type asshole. I don’t prefer that, not at all. I’m actually a pretty nice guy – kind to children and animals and such. I need, for my own reasons, to do good things for people.

    I’m not a chump anymore, though. I will be ruthless, devious, and brutal in the service of me and mine if that’s what it takes. Some people have no honor, and it’s foolish to pretend they do.

  • Susan said

    “I guess I’m naive. Whenever I have work done on the house, the guys usually want to be paid the minute it’s done, and I know that. I always make sure there’s enough in checking to cover the amount and hand them a check at the end of the job. I can’t believe there are people who delay and delay payment. That’s theft, and I’m sure it’s incredibly stressful, as you’ve described.”
    _________________________

    It was horrible. Me and my high-school buddy had this company, and we learned a lot of lessons. He’s still doing it, and the company is making 2-4 million a year these days. Guy looks 20 years older than I do, and I work at car accidents and shootings now. I bet I sleep easier than he does.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    If a pregnant girl tells you she wants a marriage and you hold the keys to commitment, the final decision is up to you. She’s making it clear what she wants from you, and you can decide if you are willing to give it. However, if she were to hide the fact that you are not the baby daddy, she has stolen your agency to make the proper decision by hiding the fact that her motivation is really to secure a provider for herself.

    In that example, there’s clearly deception going on. The equivalent to that would be the example Susan gave about a month ago where the guy tells the girl he wants to be exclusive with her while hiding he’s had another girlfriend the whole time.

    In Ted’s example the person’s just giving his buddy reasons why he thinks it would be fun to go out. Sweetening the pot, so to speak. That’s influence, not deception.

    Again, I’ve never said I support lying and deception.

    I’m completely against Ted’s idea that game is deception. It’s simply mimicking behaviors that women find sexually attractive, just as makeup, high heels, and pushup bras mimic the physical appearance that men find sexually attractive. That’s not deception, it’s understanding your audience and marketing yourself accordingly.

  • Ted D

    JH/Leap – “I’m with Leap, there’s no difference between the two. In each case, there’s no deception or lying going on. You just chose to be swayed by the added incentive he gave you in the second example.”

    Then can I assume you are both find and well with using superior intellect to “persuade” others to your liking? And you don’t see that as taking advantage of someone? Would you feel the same if the other person was mentally handicapped? Where does the limit exist for you in terms of when manipulation is wrong?

    To me, it’s all the same. The right thing to do is: lay out all the facts, and let the other person decide on their own. But it really is what I expect from most of the world, no real integrity to be found. And again, to me it doesn’t matter if you use your “powers of persuasion” for good or evil.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Then can I assume you are both find and well with using superior intellect to “persuade” others to your liking?

    Of course I’m okay with it.

    Would you feel the same if the other person was mentally handicapped?

    You’re committing the Slippery Slope logical fallacy.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

  • Abbot

    “Sex is not the point of a relationship, it is the privledge”

    That is why men universally avoid the “pre privileged” or privilege expressed, privilege embraced, and privilege explored when its time for a wifely

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Ted, what you see as manipulation is really just negotiation. Here’s a real life example….

    A few weeks ago an old contact called me with an offer for a quick freelance job opportunity. Now this opportunity required me to drive a good distance, took up a lot time, and didn’t pay very well. He persuaded me to do it by saying it would be great resume material and would be an opportunity to network with some major players in my industry. And he was right. I also persuaded him to let me do some additional stuff on the project that he didn’t originally want me to do by showing how it would benefit him.

    Now I know full well the main reason he was offering me was because I’m very good at what I do and my work would benefit his company financially. Add to that the fact that since I’m a student the price of my work is very cheap compared to industry veterans.

    How the hell do you think I would’ve responded if he would’ve called me up and said “Jimmy, I really need some help here and I know you work cheap and will help make us a lot of money. What do ya say?” That certainly would have been “laying out all the facts and letting me decide on my own.”

    In the end I got what he promised me, and he got what I promised him. If you honestly see that as being morally deficient, than we’ll never agree on anything.

  • Ted D

    JH – “You’re committing the Slippery Slope logical fallacy.”

    Not at all. I really am interested in where the line is for you and Leap.

    And yes, your second example to me is indeed a negotiation. But, for me this is key, you BOTH got something out of that deal. He got you to work for cheap, and you got to network. So, both of you benefited. no harm, no foul. It is the one-sided “negotiation” techniques I take issue with. In my example, the guy talking his friend into going out *might* get something if he actually hits it off with a single girl, but if not he gets nothing other than being dragged out by his friends. And further, what if there was no single girl there to meet and the friend was just lying to get a ride? Does THAT count as deceitful?

    I’m not trying to bust your balls, but I seriously see some moral relativism going on and I’m wondering if it is an individual thing, or if this is another “generational” thing that leads me to believe younger folks are more self-centered and selfish compared to previous generations. I’m starting to think that moral relativism is the norm for today, and that kinda scares me to be honest. You talk about a slippery slope logical fallacy, but I’m more concerned about a real moral slippery slope that I think we are already sliding down quickly.

    To be clear:
    “In the end I got what he promised me, and he got what I promised him. If you honestly see that as being morally deficient, than we’ll never agree on anything.”
    There is nothing manipulative or dishonest in this statement. You both got something, and for that matter you both got exactly what was expected.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Ted

    I really am interested in where the line is for you and Leap.

    I think it’s impossible to always use black and white rules when dealing with social interactions. There are always bound to be exceptions and unique situations that change everything, like your example of the handicapped person. You have to be ready to adjust on the fly for things you may not have accounted for beforehand.

    If I sat down and tried to come up with every single extenuating circumstance where it was immoral to influence others, it would take me years and would be so complex that it wouldn’t even serve a purpose.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    But as I said earlier, I think the line is always going to be right around using lying and deception to promote a situation that hurts the other person.

    In my example, the guy talking his friend into going out *might* get something if he actually hits it off with a single girl, but if not he gets nothing other than being dragged out by his friends.

    If the guy doesn’t hit it off with the girl, I don’t see how that’s his friend’s fault. His friend said “There’s an awesome girl there you’d really like to meet…”, which was 100% correct. He didn’t say “There’s a girl there who wants to go on a date with you.”

    If my buddy says “Hey man, the Powerball is $700 million, you should go in on some tickets with us!” I’ve got no reason to get pissed if I choose to play and we don’t win. At some point you have to leave people responsible for their own decisions.

    And further, what if there was no single girl there to meet and the friend was just lying to get a ride? Does THAT count as deceitful?

    OF COURSE that’s deceitful. But you never mentioned that when you gave your original example.

    There is nothing manipulative or dishonest in this statement. You both got something, and for that matter you both got exactly what was expected.

    But it goes against your requirement that people “lay out all the facts and let other people decide on their own.”

    Ted, I’m just making the point that that’s completely a losing strategy in most social interactions. It will fail in dating. It will fail in business. It will fail in job hunting. People don’t want you to lay out all the facts from the outset. They want to be sweet talked. And as long as you’re not lying while you sweet talk, it isn’t morally wrong.

    I’ll repeat what I said earlier:

    I’m completely against Ted’s idea that game is deception. It’s simply mimicking behaviors that women find sexually attractive, just as makeup, high heels, and pushup bras mimic the physical appearance that men find sexually attractive. That’s not deception, it’s understanding your audience, giving them what they want, and marketing yourself accordingly.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Ugh, blockquote fail at the end

  • Ted D

    “Ugh, blockquote fail at the end”

    I still haven’t figured out how to block quote at all. 😛

    I’ve said before, that I am NOT very good at social interactions, partly because of this “”People don’t want you to lay out all the facts from the outset. They want to be sweet talked. ” That just isn’t how I operate. I don’t sweet talk anyone, I don’t waste time trying to persuade. (at least most of the time. I will give you that I do my best to “sell” myself in a job interview. But, to me that is a performance just like when I used to gig in bands.) I don’t generally do performance art everywhere I go though…

    As far as influence and persuasion go, I do most of that stuff online in forums. I really enjoy debating (or arguing depending on how you approach it.) but I don’t do much of it in person. I’ve completely avoided all “sales” type jobs primarily because I disdain trying to “talk” someone into buying things. And yeah, I really do my best to fit everything into nice little black and white boxes.

    The funny part is, of the IT guys I know, I’m probably one of the most socially skilled. BUT, that is only because I’m older and have had years to learn how to mimic social behaviors. I’m no longer at all awkward about it, but I still dislike “socializing” all the same. I just don’t make other people uncomfortable in my presence anymore. 😛 (I still can, I’ve just learned to act “normal” so to speak)

  • Ramble

    I still haven’t figured out how to block quote at all.

    Ted, it is very easy. Simply do this: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_blockquote.asp

    Basically, you will have this:

    Your text

    However, there will not be any spaces before or after the blockquote

    The first “tag” is called the opening, or starting, tag and the last tag is called the closing tag.

    That’s it.

  • Ramble

    FUCK!

    I was afraid of that. OK, the second half of my comment can be ignored because the blog software changed it. Simply go to that link, it is extremely simple.

  • Ramble

    I don’t sweet talk anyone, I don’t waste time trying to persuade.

    Never?

    Never, ever?

    Never, ever, EVER, EVER?

    You have never tried to use the tiniest bit of charm at all, ever, in dealing with someone?

    So, you come at them with straight autistic blank faced robot speak?

    Come on, Ted.

  • I’m not a chump anymore, though. I will be ruthless, devious, and brutal in the service of me and mine if that’s what it takes.

    This.

    There’s a place in the world for empathy, cooperation, and honesty. I’m all for those virtues. However, there’s no escaping the sometimes brutal fact that life can only succeed by living off of other life. There are a lot of so-called “nice guys” who refuse to acknowledge this fact, or who fail to participate in the feast and call that failure “moral superiority.”

    The whole “turn the other cheek” philosophy doesn’t work in real life. If you find yourself getting slapped around, you need to learn to fight–and block, of course.

  • Ted D,

    I don’t sweet talk anyone, I don’t waste time trying to persuade. (at least most of the time. I will give you that I do my best to “sell” myself in a job interview. But, to me that is a performance just like when I used to gig in bands.) I don’t generally do performance art everywhere I go though…

    We all sweet talk to some extent, don’t we? We say “please” and “thank you” when it’s appropriate, we adopt a friendly tone of voice when we want others to be agreeable, we compliment people to win them over, we try to make good first impressions by showing new people our best selves.

    This type of framing has been so ingrained in us, we accept it without issue–we, in fact, take it for granted. Sure, there are more sophisticated forms of persuasion, and they may feel like “performance” to you (in the same way that saying “please” and “thank you” would feel like performance to a person raised by wolves), but that doesn’t make them deceptive or morally shady.

  • Ted D

    Ramble – “You have never tried to use the tiniest bit of charm at all, ever, in dealing with someone?”

    Oh no! When I was younger I tried that shit ALL the time. I just sucked at it.

    I stopped all that stuff somewhere in my mid-20’s when I realized it was a TON of work for very little payout. Again, I’m not counting any kind of arguing or debate, as the entire purpose of such is to persuade someone. But yeah, I really do my best to never try to persuade people into doing things. I would say that when it comes to my children, I tell them what to do, and that’s that. With my SO and other adults, I generally state what I want, and then go from there. We may negotiate, but I don’t often try to persuade or influence. (in the case of my SO, she is usually the one trying to persuade me to do something/go somewhere.)

    The thing is, I REALLY hate when people try to do it to me, so I do my best NOT to do it to others. (It’s that whole “do unto others” thing they taught me in Catholic school…) I can’t even be friends with people that are in sales, because their personalities piss me off on the regular. I know a few folks from friends that are in sales, and the most I can manage is a few hours of semi-drunk socializing with them before I want to break things.

    Now since finding the ‘sphere, I will tell you that I have on numerous occasions “turned on the charm” when out in public to see how it works, and I’ve found that with age I am a much more convincing liar. I’ve been told by my SO that several of her co-workers think I am very “charming”. It makes me chuckle. I’m certainly capable, but I find the entire process to be tiring and manipulative. If I was naturally that outgoing and charming, it would be fine. But, the truth is, I’m much more likely to give the autistic stare, especially if you are a stranger. Hell man, I tend to do the “100 yard stare” as my natural expression. And literally, when I’m in that zone, there could be 50 people standing in front of me, and I would be oblivious to all of them.

    And thanks for the link. For a guy in IT, I’m really lazy about learning how to do something if it really doesn’t matter in my line of work. To be honest, computers stopped being fun for me about 2 years after I started getting paid for working on them. 😛

  • Ted D

    Scot – “Sure, there are more sophisticated forms of persuasion, and they may feel like “performance” to you (in the same way that saying “please” and “thank you” would feel like performance to a person raised by wolves), but that doesn’t make them deceptive or morally shady.”

    I wasn’t trying to argue that all persuasion was/is evil, the original discussion started at manipulation, which by definition is deceptive. Now for me personally, I take it further and try not to be overly persuasive with people. Please and Thank You are not to me a type of persuasion as much as simply good manners. And certainly, I behave in a manner that is expected of me in public, but to be honest much of the “niceties” (such as voice inflection, smiling, etc.) are mostly intentional on my part to make others feel at ease. To be sure, I smile at people that make me happy. I’m not without emotional responses. I simply am not a social person, and at the root of it all I tend to view most things “social” as superfluous and tiring.

    I’m certainly not saying that we should in no way at all influence other people. Even when I do my best to avoid contact with other humans, my presence influences their behavior. But I can’t be responsible for how other people react to my presence, and I can’t help that people generally look for “meaning” in things I say or do to fill some need they have for connection.

    And as far as it goes, I’ve seen plenty of children that don’t know what “please” and “thank you” mean let alone when to use them. To the best of my knowledge, none of them were raised by wolves. I have to wonder if they would be better off if they were.

  • deti

    Iggles, Susan:

    “This is ridiculous statement. You cannot presume to know the sexual history of every woman you come across. Perhaps the women in your particular social circle have all have this experience but I’m skeptical.”

    What makes the statement even more ridiculous is that Deti is around 40 (I think), married for many years, with kids. The idea of his hearing sexual admissions from women aged 18-24 is more than a little disturbing. As far as I can tell, Deti gets his information from other men online, a dubious source of data to say the least.”

    All I can tell you is the info I got when I was a young single man in the scene, around 20 years ago. It’s based on my anecdotal experience and what women at the time were telling me. So contrary to Susan’s speculation, I’m not hearing women currently telling me this. And contrary to Susan’s suggestion, I don’t go around soliciting sexual admissions from young women.

    All I can do is tell you my experience and what others told me. You can take it for whatever it’s worth.

    • @deti

      All I can tell you is the info I got when I was a young single man in the scene, around 20 years ago.

      Exactly, the information is not current. We know that in 20 years a great deal has changed, and the number of virgins is increasing, for both sexes. Hookup culture is only 20 years old, and while you may believe it’s more conducive to greater numbers of women getting casual sex from alphas, the data just don’t tell that story, as far as we can tell.

      And contrary to Susan’s suggestion, I don’t go around soliciting sexual admissions from young women.

      I didn’t say you were soliciting them in some prurient way – I said that if you were hearing them that would be odd. Given your explanation, I’m sure you would agree.

  • Ramble

    But yeah, I really do my best to never try to persuade people into doing things.

    “We should go to Six Flags, it would be fun.”

    “Have you tried the brownies, they were really good.”

    It’s like you have never said anything like this.

    Actually, fuck all that.

    Ted, will you or won’t you recommend that your son wear nice clothes (and not the normal jeans and t-shirt he normally wears) to an interview?

    This is a simply Yes or No question. If you answer “Yes”, then you will know what you REALLY think about “Game”.

  • Ted,

    My bad. Jumping into the fray after 700+ comments makes it a bit tricky to follow the entire thread of an argument. For what it’s worth, while the niceties are more or less natural to me, I’m more inclined towards introversion also, though with my recent separation, I’ve been working on overcoming 37 yrs of habits and programming in order to network more socially and professionally. I find that while I may feel “comfortable” being an introvert, I definitely have a desire to be more social.

  • Ted D

    Ramble – of course the answer is yes. In fact, I’ve said a few times that a job interview is one of those situations where I knowingly and willingly try to be persuasive. After all, it is indeed a sales pitch where you are selling yourself. My opinion is it is pure BS that employers expect such a sales pitch. I am the type of person that believes people should get hired on their merits. But, since the workplace is generally a social construct, it makes sense to me that employers want/need to look for certain “personalities” to keep things going smoothly. As someone that has been in IT for years, I’m actually pretty used to dealing with people that aren’t so good at social skills. We often get along splendidly. 😉

    I’ve never said game doesn’t work, I’ve simply said I take moral issue at some of the ways it is often applied. I also know that robbing banks can make me rich, but I avoid it because I have no desire to spend time in jail.

    “We should go to Six Flags, it would be fun” – a statement of my opinion. Not persuasion to me. Now if I brought it up and met resistance, I might get into negotiation if I really wanted to go. That is persuasion, but I’d do my best to make it worth whoever’s while to go with me.

    “Have you tried the brownies? They are really good.” – another statement of my opinion. All I’m doing in this case is telling others what I think of them, and allowing them to decide if they want to try or not. In NO WAY is this persuasion to me. (if someone takes my opinion as the gold standard, it isn’t my doing.)

    Good grief I didn’t intend to get into splitting hairs. Again there is no way I can completely remove my influence from other people unless I completely seclude myself from everyone. But, I don’t manipulate people (meaning influencing others by deceit) and do my best to not be pushy to get my way. I try to simply ask for what I want, and if necessary negotiate. Work is the only environment where I intentionally get pushy when necessary, and it stresses me out every single time.

    Two things I really hate:
    1. someone trying to “persuade” me to change my mind once it is made up.
    2. having to “persuade” someone to change their mind after it is made up.

    Unfortunately, at work the only tactic I often have is persuasion. I’ve said before that I suck at and hate participating in “office politics”. This is exactly why. Other than the usual social stuff, it often involves a LOT of persuasion. (to be sure it is negotiated persuasion, but it pisses me off to have to “convince” someone to get things done. If they are worth doing, they should stand on their own merit.)

  • Ted D

    Scot – No worries. The thread comments can fly around here. 😉

    “I find that while I may feel “comfortable” being an introvert, I definitely have a desire to be more social.”

    I went through exactly the same thing after my separation, but it wasn’t out of the desire to be ‘more social’. For me, I hit the stage where I knew things could only get better, and I stopped being as “guarded” around people in general. I’m still at that point, and I won’t say it hasn’t been enjoyable. I still don’t like being around lots of strangers, and social events with lots of strangers still tire and stress me out, but I’m MUCH better at hiding it these days. It isn’t that I don’t like people or want to connect, it is that I really don’t find that I have much in common with most people, and trying to find “common ground” is far too much work for me. And, even if we do connect, the truth is I’m a very picky person when it comes to letting people into my “inner circle”, and most people I meet simply don’t make the cut. They may be perfectly nice people, but “nice” isn’t even on my list of requirements.

    Of interesting note: once I found out about MBTI, I spread the word to my friends and like HUS my circle has a rather sizable amount of INTJ’s, and mostly consists of I types in general. My male friends are the I’s, their SO’s account for most of the E’s. Yes, most of my male friends are indeed STEM types, so I suppose this is no surprise. What I find interesting is that although INTJ’s are pretty rare, they seem to find each other pretty successfully.

  • Ramble

    I’ve never said game doesn’t work, I’ve simply said I take moral issue at some of the ways it is often applied.

    Do you use a knife to carve a turkey? Do you use a knife to carve your neighbor?

    Of course you don’t always agree, how could you?

    My opinion is it is pure BS that employers expect such a sales pitch.

    You’re right, of course.

    “Do not put your best foot forward! Do not highlight your greatest successes. Do your absolute best to explain to me what you have done in the most boring, staid way possible. Please go over the minutiae of your day.”

    Ted, you have heard the quote, “to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail”?

    Well, it is like you are holding this hammer, you see a set of tools sitting right next to you, you refuse to pick it up or even open it, and demand that everything in your path become a nail.

    Ted, for a moment, forget “Game”. Forget that you had ever heard of the subject.

    And, now imagine that your daughter has just met a guy. And, from what little you have seen (so far), it seems like he is an upstanding young man. Do you hope that, outside of things like loyalty, honor and ethics, that he is also able to be charming or charismatic?

    Interesting and funny?

    I don’t mean that he needs to be some sort of comedian or star, but that he can be, well, charming?

  • Ted,

    That actually is pretty interesting about the MBTI. I’m going to have to do some research into it.

    For me, I just feel a tremendous amount of freedom since the separation. My ex isn’t a bad person by any means, but we definitely had an unhealthy way of relating. And after 17 yrs of being married (got married at 20!!! wtf was I thinking?) it was just too much history to overcome.

    Now I just want to take the whole damn world by storm….

  • Ted,

    Two things I really hate:
    1. someone trying to “persuade” me to change my mind once it is made up.
    2. having to “persuade” someone to change their mind after it is made up.

    Incidentally, my most recent (and so far only) post addresses the first point. Basically, I think people talk way too much about what they plan to do and that invites all kinds of advice, criticism, and distractions.

  • Ted D

    Ramble – “And, now imagine that your daughter has just met a guy. And, from what little you have seen (so far), it seems like he is an upstanding young man. Do you hope that, outside of things like loyalty, honor and ethics, that he is also able to be charming or charismatic?

    Interesting and funny?”

    If he is loyal, honorable, and ethical, and treats my daughter decently, I could care less if he is charming, charismatic, interesting, or funny. I don’t have to live with him, so if she is happy with him as he is, I would be fine with it.

    Now, that being said, knowing what I do about “game”, my only concern would be that in the long run, she would get bored with this guy and possibly seek a divorce that would disrupt any family she started. (if she has no children, which as of now is what she claims to want, then I would have less concern about her marital status.)

    “Ted, you have heard the quote, “to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail”?

    “Well, it is like you are holding this hammer, you see a set of tools sitting right next to you, you refuse to pick it up or even open it, and demand that everything in your path become a nail.”

    Not exactly. I am not attempting (or at least not intentionally attempting) to build something with a hammer that requires a wrench. Instead, I tend to simply concentrate on building things that need a hammer. I know what I’m good at, and what I’m not, and I simply try my best to steer myself in directions where what I’m good at can be put to best use. I don’t get involved in social stuff because I’m bad at it and dislike it. I don’t get into sales because I very much dislike being pushy.

    I’m not a genius, but I have a few brain cells. Most of my family (immediate) are also decently smart, but primarily they are all good with numbers. I have a few accountant/CPA types in the family, and one that does engineering. I SUCK at math, but not because I’m incapable. It just takes monumental effort on my part to concentrate on getting math done, and stresses me out in the process. So, for the most part, I don’t do math. I have people around me that are great at it, and my phone has a calculator if I find myself alone trying to figure out how much to tip a waitress. To me, the effort it takes to get better at math simply isn’t worth the return when I can get the answers I need other ways. Sure, I won’t say there isn’t some laziness in there, but most of it really is a cost/benefit thing for me. The cost (stress and frustration) is not worth the result (not relying on someone else to provide the answer) when I am completely content at getting the answer elsewhere.

    Social stuff is no different to me. It takes far too much effort on my part to be ‘good’ at it, and there isn’t much return on that energy investment for me to make it worth while. I could probably make a great motivational speaker, but only if I truly believed in what I was ‘selling’, because otherwise I wouldn’t put in the effort to be convincing. For people that thrive on and enjoy social interactions, this probably sounds alien. But I have to put out real effort to engage effectively with other people, and the honest truth is, I just don’t see much in the way of returns. I mean, it may be great that people like me, but other than that what is there to gain?

    “Do not put your best foot forward! Do not highlight your greatest successes. Do your absolute best to explain to me what you have done in the most boring, staid way possible.”

    If your “best foot” is your logical thinking and problem solving skills, what difference does it make how you present it? I never said you shouldn’t highlight your successes, but does it have to be done while smiling and speaking in a “bubbly” tone of voice? I’ll be honest, most of my interviews went the “explain to me what you have done in the most boring, staid way possible”, but I work in IT. There isn’t a lot of excitement in rolling out anti-virus software, or creating security policy for computers across the globe. Am I supposed to breathlessly explain how exciting setting up an electronic password vault is with a twinkle in my eye?

    If I was looking for positions in sales or HR, all that presentation stuff would make sense to me. Those are positions where you deal with people, a lot. I’m in IT because I didn’t want to deal with people. Again, why try to tighten a nut with a hammer? I understand that you are attempting to explain how complicated dealing with people is, and I agree, which is why I do my best to simply not deal with “people” much. I get that the great wide world out there is mostly grey, with some black and white on the edges. I do my best to make *MY* world as black and white as I can, because that is how I like it. If to you that means I’m trying to make everything a nail, then you are correct.

  • Ted D

    Scot – “Now I just want to take the whole damn world by storm….”

    Rip shit up! For me taking the world by storm meant getting a new job, getting into better shape, and finding a new relationship. (although I had NO intention of looking for one.) Despite what you will see from me here, I’m actually pretty damn happy and content with how things have turned out considering just how bleak my life looked 4 years ago. What I’m trying to figure out now is how to keep the momentum going, because it really is in my nature to be completely happy just being content. I don’t want/need much, and when I’m content I don’t really have much ambition to do better. I’m not a “grass is greener” kind of person, and as much as excitement may be stimulating, I get much more happiness out of security and stability. I don’t have a problem with it, but most of the world doesn’t seem to agree with me. So, to some extent, I need to push myself to keep the people around me happy and interested.

  • Ramble

    If he is loyal, honorable, and ethical, and treats my daughter decently, I could care less if he is charming, charismatic, interesting, or funny.

    Ted, come on, really? Really?!

    You “could not care less” if your daughter is with someone who has the personality of wallpaper?

    Come on.

    I am not asking you if you want her to be with some wise-cracking, game-playing, mind-fucking ne’er-do-well.

    Interesting. You would not care if she was with someone interesting.

    Well, OK.

    You can claim victory on this one if you like.

  • Ted D

    Ramble – “You can claim victory on this one if you like.”

    LOL. I’m really not trying to “win” here. I’m just being honest.

    I don’t think you really understand what I mean when I say I don’t like “people” for the most part. If my daughter married a boring guy, what difference would it make to me? I’m not going to go out of my way to be friendly with him any more than I do the rest of my family. If he isn’t particularly charming or a good conversationalist, I simply wont talk to him. (and the truth is, unless I have something in particular to say to him, I probably wouldn’t talk to him anyway) I live with my SO and three children, and there are days when the entirety of my evening conversations happen at dinner and bed time when I check in on the kids. My SO and I have spent entire evenings quietly sitting next to each other doing separate things. (She likes to watch TV far more than I do, so she will often watch something while I am sitting next to her with my iPad or laptop out working on something.) To me there are no awkward silences, I actually enjoy them.

    And to be honest, if my son or daughter brought home a loyal, ethical, moral, and decent person, what in the world would I have left to complain about? Good grief I hope they can actually find someone like that, even if it means they have the personality of a can of soup. I don’t have to like or love their mate, but I want to make sure they are “good” people and will provide for and support my son/daughter. In fact, to me liking who they are with has much more to do with the quality of their character than how personable they are.

  • @ Susan
    “Exactly, the information is not current. We know that in 20 years a great deal has changed, and the number of virgins is increasing, for both sexes. Hookup culture is only 20 years old, and while you may believe it’s more conducive to greater numbers of women getting casual sex from alphas, **the data just don’t tell that story, as far as we can tell**.”

    I’m a Game-aware late 20’s male involved in both the college scene (grad school rocks) and the church scene. I can concur with your statement that there is objectively a rising number of virgins, but that doesn’t really tell the whole story. I definitely know a number young women who have remained “virgins” (to one degree or another), with this being especially true in the church circles.

    But.

    The vast majority of those women are low SMV women who never garner serious interest from peak alphas. When faced with a choice of simply a blatant hookup with zero chance of commitment or remaining virgins, they take the latter route. While I applaud this decision, I would caution people not to make necessity a virtue. I definitely know high SMV women who have refrained from hooking up, but they are few and far between.

  • Ramble

    If my daughter married a boring guy, what difference would it make to me?

    That was not the question I asked you.

    I asked what you would hope for your daughter. For instance, a man might be some penthouse loving city slicker, but may want his daughter to raise her family in a safe, stable neighborhood with child friendly streets.

    If you really don’t care if your daughter ends up marrying wallpaper with male genitals, then so be it. But it sounds more like you don’t care about your daughter (yes, Yes, I know that is not the case…I am just saying).

    Ted, from this side of the fence, you are going into overdrive in an attempt to wash away as much personality, charm, charisma, and “Game” as possible.

    So, when someone offers an obvious example like “going on an interview”, you then need to make an exception.

    Here, you say you don’t care if you daughter ends up with an uninteresting, uncharismatic, un-charming, unfunny carbon blob (though, that carbon blob is loyal).

    So, as long as you keep sticking to this, then, like I said, “You win!”. Of course, what you have won is pretty shitty. Pretty shitty for your daughter, in this example, as well.

  • Ted D

    Ramble – hang on. I think you are jumping to some conclusions that aren’t true here. What I want for my daughter and son are to be happy, safe, and productive in life. If they get there with a boring person, so be it. I place far more value on a person’s loyalty and morality than I do on thier personality. To me, personality is the wrapper a person is packaged in. It may look great, or it may be boring, but what really matters is what’s underneath.

    Or put another way, what good is a charismatic douche?

    “Ted, from this side of the fence, you are going into overdrive in an attempt to wash away as much personality, charm, charisma, and “Game” as possible.”

    Well yeah, because none of that matters in the least in terms of a person’s character. None of the list above makes a good person, it just makes a person more or less interesting. Does charm make a man faithful? Does charisma make a women a good wife? Nope. Morality, ethics, faithfulness, trustworthiness, and integrity make someone a good person. As long as my children choose good people, I could care less what thier wrapper looks like.

    “So, when someone offers an obvious example like “going on an interview”, you then need to make an exception.”

    Well for me the way I behave in an interview IS an exception. I don’t make it a habit of tooting my own horn, and I really dislike talking about my “successes” and accomplishments.

    I get the impression I’m frustrating you, and that isn’t my intent.

  • Ramble

    I place far more value on a person’s loyalty and morality than I do on thier personality. To me, personality is the wrapper a person is packaged in. It may look great, or it may be boring, but what really matters is what’s underneath.

    Ted, great, I never said otherwise. In fact, I tried quite hard to ask the question in a manner where the young mans honor was already in place. Yet, with your hammer, you still went looking for that nail, so, you had to re-word it in your head.

    For instance,

    Or put another way, what good is a charismatic douche?

    When did I ever imply that a douche, of any level of charisma, would be any good. Again, I tried quite hard to word the question in a way to get to the heart of the point.

    None of the list above makes a good person, it just makes a person more or less interesting.

    That’s right. It is possible for a young woman to get with an honorable robot or with a charismatic cad. Neither is ideal.

    Now, it is also possible for a young woman to get with an honorable young man who also knows how to hold a conversation. I am not talking about fuzzy hats, guyliner or trying to get her into 3-ways.

    Some interesting conversation, some fun jokes, some flirting, etc.

    I am confident that you can see this from what I have written, but you are hell bent on changing the message.

    And, so, like I have said before, you win. Personality is not necessary, so, therefore, it is useless.

  • Desiderius

    “You don’t understand.

    Nobody dates anymore. If they get together, they do it by ‘hanging out’ or hooking up.

    And if a guy is bold and asks for a date, the girl will flake on him because it’s just so different. She will think he is too aggressive.”

    That’s not actually true.

    The new norm is though that you hookup prior to dating. Women really want the dates but they’re afraid to run afoul of the norm, so they flake on good men who try to date without the hookup.

    I’m understanding flaking a lot better now due to some extensive field experience, good and bad.

    Flaking is when a woman rejects a man she’s attracted to. Here’s the process:

    1. Woman (especially attractive ones with many options) is attracted to a man.

    2. She sends IOI’s (playing with hair, coy looks, light touching, eye contact) toward man.

    3. He doesn’t respond immediately in kind (date invitations/attempts to get to know her better don’t count – the norm is that these follow the hookup) – i.e. kino, flirting, shows of charisma/dominance

    4. She assumes that he’s either (a) not that into her or, worse (b) inexperienced with women.

    5. She flakes.

    I just had a girl (yes, she is significantly younger) flake on a date she had previously expressed great interest in. We had paired off a couple times after group get togethers, but I had neglected to physically escalate, for various reasons (mostly good ones). Her hints that she would like to date included the assumption that we would hookup first.

    Women’s thirst for traditional dating and I’m thinking, mating, is becoming ever more acute, but they’re still trying to get men to go through the hookup gate first, hence the frustration on both ends.

    The solution is to make sure that the rising generation knows that the hookup norm was a creation of the generation before them, and that they’re free to create their own, including one where people go on (much more low-key) dates even before they’ve hooked up.

    • @Desiderius

      The solution is to make sure that the rising generation knows that the hookup norm was a creation of the generation before them, and that they’re free to create their own, including one where people go on (much more low-key) dates even before they’ve hooked up.

      +1 for the comment.

      +1 for showing up and commenting. xoxo

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Desiderius
    I agree completely with your observation of flaking, but I disagree with this:

    Women really want the dates but they’re afraid to run afoul of the norm, so they flake on good men who try to date without the hookup.

    That’s just a lot of rationalizing and excuse making. Actions speak louder than words. If they’re flaking when they’re offered dates, then they don’t want dates.

    And if they actually do want dates and still flake, they’re idiots who don’t deserve anything more than a hookup.

  • Desiderius

    Jimi,

    “they’re idiots who don’t deserve anything more than a hookup.”

    Deserve ain’t got nothing to do with it.

    Love makes foolsof us all.

  • Windy

    ”The problem isn’t you. Men are raised today to not ask women out because that’s objectifying/patriarchal/this week’s buzz word. You really should listen to the crap boys get taught in sex ed and college freshman get in orientation or ready that Feministing article that uses as proof that all men are potential rapists the put your arm on the door and ask for a kiss tactic.”

    Not really. Men and boys aren’t asking women and girls out because it’s not worth the effort, the complications, the drama, and the money and emotions they’re going to spend. They also observed their fathers marriages and how the entire mating battleground is owned and staged by women, which makes them weary of pursuing women.

    I was also, pleasantly surprised, when I was in a train station filled with college students and I noticed that not only the young men didn’t approach the women(and most of them were quite attractive); they also avoided eye-contact, being near the women and instead of doing what ”nature intended” they had their eyes on their portable consoles ;D.

  • Zac

    Susan, I am constantly disappointed so far by the fact that you seem to always lump in any men that enjoy casual sex or promiscuity as players. I tihnk it’s a gross misinterpretation of two different types of men and I will continue to urge you to think more about the fact that some men might enjoy many relationships with many women in their life while emotionally connecting and being respectful. Those men may also end up married or in happy long term relationships when their lives merge with the right person. Again, you have some great things to say on this blog but you are painting with a very large brush. I think you have it in you to be more accurate on this matter.

    • @Zac

      Susan, I am constantly disappointed so far by the fact that you seem to always lump in any men that enjoy casual sex or promiscuity as players.

      That’s not an accurate representation of my views, nor of what I have said here. I would assume that most men, though not all, would enjoy casual sex. I recognize that many men would go for it if they had the option. Certainly I don’t think there is anything wrong with sex between consenting adults, nor with the adults who choose it.

      On the other hand, promiscuity – from either sex – is correlated with numerous undesirable outcomes. I’ve written about much of the research – just search on the term promiscuity for more information. Perhaps the most important consideration is that men who are oriented toward short-term mating often avoid long-term relationships, preferring sexual variety over a monogamous commitment. That’s a red flag for women who seek an LTR, which is who I write for.

  • Zac

    @Susan

    You say here

    “On the other hand, promiscuity – from either sex – is correlated with numerous undesirable outcomes. I’ve written about much of the research – just search on the term promiscuity for more information. Perhaps the most important consideration is that men who are oriented toward short-term mating often avoid long-term relationships, preferring sexual variety over a monogamous commitment. That’s a red flag for women who seek an LTR, which is who I write for.”

    What do you think about this article though that says this?

    http://postmasculine.com/does-promiscuity-ruin-you-as-a-potential-husband

    “My personal experience and what I’ve observed has been the opposite though. The more sexual experience I’ve gotten and the more I’ve gone out, the more unimpressed I’ve become towards casual sex and pursuing one-night-stands, and the healthier and more fulfilling my relationships have become. Granted, it took me quite a while to reach this point, but I’ve seen the same process play out in plenty of other men as well.

    The fact that my standards for a woman that I’m willing to settle down with have become so high lead me to believe that I’d be less likely to stray when I did find that woman who I’d be willing to commit to for the long-haul. When a man has only been with two women in his life, it’s easy for him to question how valuable his connection with his wife is. But when he’s been with 100, he can rest assured that what he has in his relationship is truly special and unique, and therefore he’ll be LESS motivated to stray.”

    • @Zac

      That’s a really interesting post. I’ve actually never heard a guy say that before. Most of the guys who comment at HUS who are players confess they don’t know if they’ll ever settle down, and I recently wrote a post about a guy who wrote worrying that he’s essentially destroyed his ability to be with one woman by sleeping with so many (his number is 24). He described the “greatest hits reel” that plays in his head, and how even in a relationship, he thinks back on those crazy-in-bed chicks. He also describes an almost constant desire to “get some strange.” I have heard many men make statements like this. But Manson’s viewpoint is new to me. He’s a former PUA, so he has undoubtedly been with a great many women.

      Honestly? I would counsel women against going with a guy with that sexual history. And I know several who have turned down guys for having too many sexual partners – I don’t know if it’s STD related, but they describe them as manwhores, dirty, etc.

      It sounds like you may be one of those guys – do you really think you could sign on for a monogamous marriage?

  • Zac

    I think that the article that I linked does talk about what you talk about as well, it just gives a more nuanced perspective.

  • I think that the article that I linked does talk about what you talk about as well, it just gives a more nuanced perspective.
    Anecdote is not data. And men always say that, is till they actually try to be faithful to one woman or when they imagine the perfect woman they will never cheat on that they realize they have a problem. Been there, done that got the T-shirt. Science backs me up. But if you want to continue enjoying your sexcapades and thinking that you are going to have no problem settling with one woman that is your prerogative we are just warning you that might likely won’t be able to, YMMV.

  • Zac

    @Anacaona

    How much data is this being based on? You obviously miss the point that people who engage in promiscuous sex are also partially likely to have other personality traits that ruin them for relationships as well. This does not mean that all promiscuous people have those traits. I have personally had 3 very long term relationships of 5 1/2 years, 2 years, and 7 months (currently in it) and I enjoy monogamy very much. How many studies is this being based on? Are scientific studies never proven wrong or slightly biased? Sitting here saying “science backs me up” is a really easy way of saying “I don’t want to think about this anymore because I read a study”. Science doesn’t explain the whole truth.

  • Zac

    I absolutely 100% intend on a monogamous marriage and I make sure I’m not a “dirty” person, I also wouldn’t want to be with a girl who was so judgmental about what made me happy as a person in the past. Every girl I date knows who am I am and what my past has been like and knows that it brought me EXACTLY to her.

    • @Zac

      It sounds good – what is the problem? Personally, I don’t care what kind of sex people have as long as it’s consensual. To the extent that certain behaviors or personality traits are correlated to infidelity, divorce and sociopathy (as promiscuity is), then I consider it my duty to present that research. People can make their own decisions.

      I would say that the number of women who would hold a promiscuous past against a man is low among promiscuous women and high among women with a more limited sexual history. Obviously, for ONSs, it’s less important.

      Conversely, I believe that a majority of males desire a mate of limited sexual experience for LTRs, and extensive sexual experience for STRs. At least that is what the research shows, and the anecdotal evidence here is in keeping with that.

  • How many studies is this being based on? Are scientific studies never proven wrong or slightly biased? Sitting here saying “science backs me up” is a really easy way of saying “I don’t want to think about this anymore because I read a study”. Science doesn’t explain the whole truth.
    Several studies all you need to do is google it and also personal experience all my cad friends wanted to settle down at some point and couldn’t. If you are an exception and I will believe that when you have at least 10 years of monogamous relationship) good for you it doesn’t mean that the rule doesn’t work.

  • Zac

    Most of my long term partners have not had a promiscuous past. You can’t really use your anecdotal evidence here as an example because your commenters are a very minute sample of people, the loud minority if you will.

    I don’t think you are completely painting the entire picture, which is why I’m taking the time to comment. You say

    “To the extent that certain behaviors or personality traits are correlated to infidelity, divorce and sociopathy (as promiscuity is), then I consider it my duty to present that research. People can make their own decisions.”

    but you clearly have it out for guys who are promiscuous and have eluded to the fact that they are no good for relationships, dirty, all “players”, ect.

    I just think that this is irresponsible interpretation of science. I think you are doing your readers a disservice by telling them that promiscuous men are probably not good for them. Certainly people with low self esteem, people who manipulate, people who lie, ect are not good for your readers but you can’t automatically assume someone has those traits because they enjoy casual sex.

    You also say “I would say that the number of women who would hold a promiscuous past against a man is low among promiscuous women and high among women with a more limited sexual history. Obviously, for ONSs, it’s less important.”

    Why would women with a more limited sexual history hold that against a man? Because they are narrow minded? Because they are intimidated by it? I think this is a really sad world view.

    Once again, I can agree that many people who are promiscuous have other traits about them that would make them bad candidates for long term relationships. In a way certain types of promiscuity literally show that the person is incapable of having any sort of positive relationship, never mind long. That being said you can’t just say that because someone is promiscuous they are not capable or willing to have long term relationships. That’s bad interpretation of the facts, at least in my opinion.

    Also, I wouldn’t know anything about one night stands because I’ve never had one. The women I’ve been with have always stuck around (as have I) and had a nice emotional connection even if we didn’t have a long term relationship.

    • @Zac

      Why would women with a more limited sexual history hold that against a man? Because they are narrow minded? Because they are intimidated by it? I think this is a really sad world view.

      I think women fear that guys with a ton of experience – with promiscuous women – are in a totally different place psychologically as well as physically. The guys who have the luxury of promiscuity while young (only 2% of college guys hit 10 partners, including oral) – well, they chose to hang with sluts, didn’t they? Most men didn’t do that, couldn’t do that, and if a woman is betting her future on a man, she’s going to consider his history. It’s only natural. Ditto for guys by the way.

      My theory – based on a lot of data – is that 20% of people are fairly promiscuous, and essentially “service” one another. I would guess that the marriage rate among these folks is much lower than average. The men have no desire to settle down, and the women spend their 20s hooking up, then find they have no takers. The burgeoning “spinster lit” genre supports this theory, as does the declining marriage rate.

      None of this is certain. I have hypotheses based on four years of rather voracious reading and two focus groups, YMMV.

  • Zac

    @Anacaona

    I’m asking you to back up what you are saying, not say “Google it” and “all my friends agree”. Like I said before, those studies can be interpreted in a few ways and it does not paint the entire picture. Promiscuous people sometimes have personality traits other than promiscuity that ruin them for relationships. If you screen for that (which you should in all relationships anyway) I don’t think that someones sexual history should be as big of a deal as you are making it out to be. I’m sure there are plenty of women who were promiscuous in say College that ended up happily married. I wouldn’t hold them having had a bunch of fun against them myself. I think it’s lame to do so to men.

  • Why would women with a more limited sexual history hold that against a man? Because they are narrow minded? Because they are intimidated by it? I think this is a really sad world view.

    How about because they want someone sexually compatible with them and that entails also how much casual sex they had in the past? Maybe?

  • Zac

    @Anecaona

    That’s you, not everyone, and you are putting your beliefs on everyone.

  • That’s you, not everyone, and you are putting your beliefs on everyone.
    I’m just stating why me and some of my friends do and has nothing to do with sad, but with compatibility and risk management.

  • Zac

    “I’m just stating why me and some of my friends do and has nothing to do with sad, but with compatibility and risk management.”

    I agree that I’m definitely not compatible with women who are extremely judgmental and narrow minded. What I did in the past has absolutely nothing to do with how I treat the women I have had in my life besides the fact I have learned many lessons.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Zac

    I just think that this is irresponsible interpretation of science. I think you are doing your readers a disservice by telling them that promiscuous men are probably not good for them. Certainly people with low self esteem, people who manipulate, people who lie, ect are not good for your readers but you can’t automatically assume someone has those traits because they enjoy casual sex.

    That assumption is perfectly okay, it seems, when made about a woman. Heaven forbid it’s made with regards to a man, then all hell breaks loose.

    Quick, someone call 911!

  • Zac

    @Sassy6519

    “That assumption is perfectly okay, it seems, when made about a woman. Heaven forbid it’s made with regards to a man, then all hell breaks loose.”

    Yeah, it’s absolutely sexist when men do it too. Are you arguing that you should make sexist comments? Guys who say that suck. Do you want to suck just as bad?

  • I agree that I’m definitely not compatible with women who are extremely judgmental and narrow minded. What I did in the past has absolutely nothing to do with how I treat the women I have had in my life besides the fact I have learned many lessons.

    Past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour and learning lessons between many women’s legs is your prerogative but it doesn’t make you better than other men that learned those lessons without that many, many, many women. Is like saying that someone that repeated a test several times is better student than someone that passed it at once, does not compute.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Zac

    I don’t make such comments. I’m just commenting on the double standard that is readily accepted here at HUS by the men.

    I’d love to see you call Abbot, the primary suspect, a sexist.

    The following exchange would be worth several tubs of popcorn.

  • Zac

    “Past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour and learning lessons between many women’s legs is your prerogative but it doesn’t make you better than other men that learned those lessons without that many, many, many women. Is like saying that someone that repeated a test several times is better student than someone that passed it at once, does not compute.”

    So now every woman is the same, and it’s the same as running the same test over and over. Way to put women down. I’ve actually learned a lot of unique lessons from every woman I’ve been with.

    As for past behavior being the best predictor, that’s not true. I’m young. My behavior relates to my life situation. As I get older and want children and a house and things like that, my behavior will fall in line to it.

    To be honest you just seem to have an axe to grind and won’t even consider that you might be even partially wrong.

  • Zac

    @Sassy6519

    Give us a way to talk and have me hear his point of view without interuption and if he his attitude is that of a sexist I’ll call him out. Sexism is disgusting FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE FENCE and I don’t support it either way. You did make fun of me and say “someone call 911”. You basically defended being sexist by pointing at other sexist behavior. That is not cool.

  • To be honest you just seem to have an axe to grind and won’t even consider that you might be even partially wrong.

    Why I would consider after 30 some years of seeing this happening and several studies backing it up? I mean you have a sample of one: Yourself that doesn’t even had a long relationship yet (and not 5 years is not long) to say that science is wrong. Really “someone on the Internet says that they are special and not statistic or study or personal observation applies to them” is an old meme. I will beleive it, when I see it, both in science and on my personal life.

  • Zac

    @anacaona

    You have a very absolute point of view, which obviously can not be absolutely correct. I’m saying you need to be open minded. You just keep thinking you know everything and that my story doesn’t matter. That’s fine. I’m not saying science is wrong, I’m saying you are interpreting it wrong.

  • You have a very absolute point of view, which obviously can not be absolutely correct. I’m saying you need to be open minded. You just keep thinking you know everything and that my story doesn’t matter. That’s fine. I’m not saying science is wrong, I’m saying you are interpreting it wrong.

    So you are interpreting science right? Where is your data? Your story is not data. You hope and say that you are going to be faithful and that you won’t get any baggage but this is not a fact is a wish. Science is based on data and using that data as predictor you have no data we do. Science doesn’t work like that. I can say “a promiscuous person has more chances of cheat and be a bad long term partner” do you agree or disagree with this statement?

  • Zac

    “So you are interpreting science right? Where is your data? Your story is not data. You hope and say that you are going to be faithful and that you won’t get any baggage but this is not a fact is a wish. Science is based on data and using that data as predictor you have no data we do. Science doesn’t work like that. I can say “a promiscuous person has more chances of cheat and be a bad long term partner” do you agree or disagree with this statement?”

    I am saying that the science doesn’t paint the entire picture. I’ve been many times faithful, if you can read. I am faithful right now and have been for a while. Don’t tell me how science works. I don’t think that a promiscuous person has more chances to cheat and will be a bad long term partner. Did you read the article I shared. Again, you aren’t willing to question your world view at all which is a fundamental flaw in any person.

  • I am saying that the science doesn’t paint the entire picture.

    What are you basing this on?

    Again, you aren’t willing to question your world view at all which is a fundamental flaw in any person.

    So your worldview is based on yourself and the story of a couple of guys and is more right than my worldview based on science and thousands of men and women data? I can see that being a flaw indeed.

  • Zac

    “What are you basing this on?”

    have you read anything I have said? The science basically paints a very large brush.

    Can you tell me that ALL men who are promiscous have low self esteem, treat women badly, and are bad for relationships. Can you say that ALMOST ALL men that are are? I don’t think you can say that with any certainty whatsoever.

    “So your worldview is based on yourself and the story of a couple of guys and is more right than my worldview based on science and thousands of men and women data? I can see that being a flaw indeed.”

    No. I am willing to admit many promiscuous men are bad for relationships. Many non promiscuous men are as well. You are the one dealing with absolutes, which are almost never true ever.

    I’ve actually been involved in the men’s dating community and have been helping men with women for the last 2 1/2 years. I spent an entire year running events to help men with their dating skills.

    Again, I’m sitting here agreeing that some promiscuous men suck (some men suck in general) and maybe a higher portion of promiscuous men do, but that it would be absolutely wrong to make the assumption that all or most promiscuous men are ruined for relationships.

    • Again, I’m sitting here agreeing that some promiscuous men suck (some men suck in general) and maybe a higher portion of promiscuous men do, but that it would be absolutely wrong to make the assumption that all or most promiscuous men are ruined for relationships.

      That’s fine but it’s a question of playing the odds. For a woman who wants marriage and children, a man’s demonstrated willingness or propensity to be satisfied with monogamy is a key consideration. Lots of women won’t choose that way, though. I don’t anticipate that former manwhores will have much of a problem. For promiscuous females, I fear the odds are not so great.

  • Zac

    The guys who have the luxury of promiscuity while young (only 2% of college guys hit 10 partners, including oral) – well, they chose to hang with sluts, didn’t they?

    I think you made a lot of good points but no, I don’t believe they just hung out with “sluts”. I don’t hang out with “sluts”. Some of my partners have enjoyed many partners but I think “sluts” are people with no self respect who don’t take care of themselves. I don’t consider having many partners as having no self respect. I’d say at least 50-70% of the women I’ve been with have had very few sexual partners.

  • Can you tell me that ALL men who are promiscous have low self esteem, treat women badly, and are bad for relationships. Can you say that ALMOST ALL men that are are? I don’t think you can say that with any certainty whatsoever.

    Actually I think many promiscuous men have high opinion of themselves and treat women right. The part of the studies and experience that concerns me the most is the likely they will cheat on. I man can be perfect in almost everything but if he is not faithful he is worthless in a marriage and I wouldn’t want to carry any child of his seed.

    Again, I’m sitting here agreeing that some promiscuous men suck (some men suck in general) and maybe a higher portion of promiscuous men do, but that it would be absolutely wrong to make the assumption that all or most promiscuous men are ruined for relationships.

    Then this is a risk management situation. If a large number of men that are promiscuous are more likely to cheat a woman that wants a faithful partner should avoid them because the numbers are against him being the kind of man she wants to marry. Don’t you think?

  • Zac

    “Actually I think many promiscuous men have high opinion of themselves and treat women right. The part of the studies and experience that concerns me the most is the likely they will cheat on. I man can be perfect in almost everything but if he is not faithful he is worthless in a marriage and I wouldn’t want to carry any child of his seed.”

    I definitely think cheating is wrong. I’ve never done it in my life. I think that people who cheat have other problems going on with themselves besides promiscuity. That’s my point. Promiscuity isn’t the problem, it’s a symptom of a greater problem (for some people). There are people that have the exact same traits that haven’t been promiscuous that you have to worry about just as much as well.

    “Then this is a risk management situation. If a large number of men that are promiscuous are more likely to cheat a woman that wants a faithful partner should avoid them because the numbers are against him being the kind of man she wants to marry. Don’t you think?”

    No, I think things in life are case by case and you need to be able to judge character on your own and not leave it up to assumptions.

  • There are people that have the exact same traits that haven’t been promiscuous that you have to worry about just as much as well.

    Data please? You keep saying “there are” “I am” but studies say majority.

    No, I think things in life are case by case and you need to be able to judge character on your own and not leave it up to assumptions.

    Assumptions are baseless. Predictions based on math and statistics are logical. If you were to hire a person that has a story of getting fired of every single job he/she had before you won’t take that in account before investing your time and money in them?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    Whats interesting to me about you is that quite a few people got quite clearly what i was saying, including thras and mcb; but i somehow should do things a certain way, to *assuage* you. No thank you, i decline. I write the way i write because it suits the only person who matters: me. If you do not like it there is no one holding a glock to your head and forcing you to respond. You dont have to. But you do, and thats because im very good at that sort of thing. Hah made you look…

    How on earth did you miss the few other people who commented on your writing style and claims in a negative mocking tone?

    There’s none so blind as those who will not see. Indeed.

    o, the question has to be-why? Too bad the “swirlers” havent deemed it important to seriously explore this question-as we have clear and present evidence right here in this forum.

    Uh huh.

    The more comments I read from you, the more I question the “intelligent” label that you have ascribed to yourself.

  • Zac

    @Anacaona

    Assumptions are baseless. Predictions based on math and statistics are logical. If you were to hire a person that has a story of getting fired of every single job he/she had before you won’t take that in account before investing your time and money in them?

    Your example has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

    “Data please? You keep saying “there are” “I am” but studies say majority.”

    Are you trying to tell me that I need data to prove the fact that there are plenty of not promiscuous guys that suck at relationships?

    I mean, if you want me to just concede that you are right about everything and you opening up your mind just a crack would be a travesty I will for your sake.

    What you keep missing is I agree with you on some points and you pretty much are 100% completely unwilling to see it from another point of view. I already told you my personal credentials on men and dating, you are the one that keeps pointing at a few scientific studies.

    I am saying those studies don’t paint the entire picture and have backed up with the fact that promiscuity is a problem a lot of people have that have many other problems that make them terrible candidates for relationships. That being said there are promiscuous people that do not have those qualities. It is completely possible for someone to have many of those qualities that are toxic for relationships like manipulation, lies, self esteem issues, trust issues, ect who hasn’t been promiscuous. Those people are just as likely to be horrible partners. I don’t need science to back me up saying that, I’m sorry.

    Are you arguing against that? What are you even arguing? That being narrow minded, not deciding things for yourself, not taking life case by case, ect are not the way to go?

    I wouldn’t date you because you are exhibiting the traits of a judgmental and narrow minded person. I don’t need a scientific study to tell me it wouldn’t work out between us. It has nothing to do with promiscuity either, you just have a really negative attitude. In fact, I would imagine if there have been studies that people with those attitudes are pretty fail at having long term happy relationships as well.

  • Your example has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

    Of course is does. You are investing emotionally on a person and that is more important than investing money so what kind of filters do you need to maximize your chances of happiness and minimize your chances of heartbreak? Or you are a “She is hot I will commit to her whatever the rest” kind of guy?

    Are you arguing against that? What are you even arguing? That being narrow minded, not deciding things for yourself, not taking life case by case, ect are not the way to go?

    You are arguing that not using some logic for dating is better than using logic. Case by case takes time dating is about maximizing the chances of finding the right person for that is better to avoid red flags and promiscuity is one of many.

    In fact, I would imagine if there have been studies that people with those attitudes are pretty fail at having long term happy relationships as well.

    Imagine what you want obviously that is what gets you world going. I’m actually already married, in love and very happy. Being judgmental saves a lot of time. 😉

  • Zac

    You straw man a lot of the things I say.

  • You straw man a lot of the things I sa