Very attractive women get a lot of attention from cads and players. In a vestige of assortative mating among the beautiful people, the men most desired by women will at least occasionally try to supplement their “one and done” conquests with women of their own sexual market value. The highest value “target” is a super hot babe who isn’t promiscuous.
Everything else being equal, the better looking a woman is, the less likely she is to indulge in casual sex. Unlike her male counterpart, who finds himself deluged with offers for what he prizes most (sexual variety), the beautiful woman finds herself the loneliest girl at the ball. David Buss, in The Evolution of Desire, explains why the most attractive women are loath to sell themselves short in the relationship market:
Those who hold valuable resources do not give them away cheaply or unselectively. Evolution favored women who were highly selective about their mates. If a woman walked away from a casual encounter pregnant, she bore the costs of that decision for decades afterward. Today, the pill alters that cost. But sexual psychology evolved over millions of years. We still possess this underlying sexual psychology even though our environment has changed.
… Men’s low standards for [casual sex] reveal a precise strategy to gain access to a variety of partners.
According to Buss, the floor of male attraction for no-strings sex is characterized by the following female traits:
- A low sex drive
- Physical unattractiveness
- Need for commitment
- Hairiness
Bwahahahaha! I’ve known some women fitting 2-4 who bedded players. Beauty is just a lightswitch away!
Of course, everything else never is equal, and some women, including very good looking women, choose to play in the promiscuous pool. Genetic traits, family history, and self-esteem are all correlated to promiscuity in women.
By and large, though, the women with the highest sexual market value will demand commitment (of emotion or resources) in exchange for sex. Problematically, the men most likely to approach them are the men least willing to make the trade. If cads and players wore signs like marathoners wear numbers, filtering out these opportunists would be easy, if somewhat tedious. In a college environment, a woman can easily steer clear of cads, or make inquiries when necessary to get the scoop on a guy’s MO. After graduation this becomes considerably more difficult. Short of having her knees wired shut, what’s a good looking girl to do?
Of all the stories I hear from readers, I estimate that between one-third and one-half of them are from women who incorrectly judged a man’s character and got burned in the process. With assholes pretending to be good guys, and good guys pretending to be assholes, the lines have become very blurred. Still, women are the gatekeepers to sex, and it is always the female’s responsibility to adequately screen men for honest intent.
The tried and true method of delaying sex until you know “what it is we’re doing” is still your best bet. But a girl can waste a lot of time and get pretty attached to a guy during that period, only to find out he “wasn’t trying to turn this into anything.” This weekend a young woman shared her method for filtering out players and it’s probably the best one I’ve heard. She’s used it to great effect several times. Unfortunately, every single one of the guys has turned out to want nothing from her but sex, which sucks. She’d love for just one guy to make it through the filter. Of course, nothing is foolproof and a clever cad could sneak through, but she recognizes the enormous value of having a standard that cads are unlikely to meet.
“Be less interested or more interested.”
Grace met Brady in an orientation program at work. (They had just started working for the same company, but not the same department.) They hit it off, but she learned he was still with his college girlfriend, so she kept her distance. He didn’t act flirtatious or shady, so she figured he was a good guy. A couple of months after the program ended, he asked her out for coffee to catch up, and took the opportunity to mention that he had broken up with his girlfriend. As they walked back to work, he casually said, “We should hang out sometime.”
Brady began to text Grace just about every weekend. He was always wondering where she was and whether she wanted to come meet him. Since she was with her own friends, she declined the opportunity to hop in a cab and join him on the other side of town. At a Marathon Monday party held by a coworker, Brady was very attentive and when he walked Grace to her car, he told her how much he’d enjoyed seeing her outside the office and asked if he could kiss her.
Grace: “I don’t think that’s a good idea. Things could get awkward at work.”
Brady: “I don’t share your concern.”
Grace: (laughing) “Oh really? Why is that?”
Brady: “Because there are only two ways things could get awkward. One is if I tell anyone else our business, and the other is if I act like a dick. I have no intention of doing either.”
They kissed. That night Brady sent Grace a text: I want more 
Brady continued to text Grace frequently, always spontaneously. He usually initiated texting once he was already out, inviting her over. In some ways Grace felt singled out for attention by this handsome young man. He was motivated, in touch, consistent, and undeterred. He began checking in to see how her day was, say good night, etc. He invited her over for a glass of wine, and asked when he would get to see her apartment. In some ways, Grace felt that she’d gotten to know Brady pretty well, and he certainly had been making his interest clear over the past three months.
One night Brady confronted Grace (by text of course) about her unwillingness to take their relationship to the next step. He told her he was tired of putting in all the effort if she wasn’t going to give him a shot.
Grace: “You need to be less interested or more interested.”
Brady: “What does that mean?”
Grace: “Your effort is consistent but half-assed.”
Brady: “Half-assed? What the hell. Why would you even say that. I’ve been trying to get with you for months.”
Grace: “Exactly. You want to see me? Let’s meet for dinner one night at 7:00. Let’s go for a run. Don’t text me late night when you’re already out with your friends. Either stop contacting me completely or step up your game.”
This just happened, so I don’t know the outcome yet, but Grace feels certain she won’t be receiving any more attention from Brady. In fact, she thinks it’s entirely possible a lot of those texts were group texts.
Many women convince themselves that a consistent level of attention over a period of time means the guy’s intentions point toward a relationship instead of a hookup. In fact, months of low quality attention is worthless. You’d be better off without it. You’d benefit if he were less interested.
If he does want something real, he’ll step up and ask you out in a legit way, eager to demonstrate he’s not a player. He’d be more interested.
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I don’t get this. Sounds like he is putting in all the effort and she is putting in none. I can see why he is irritated at her response.
I’ve been through this with girls, they are happy to receive attention, they don’t exactly friendzone you, but they make no effort of their own. If you’re not calling, emailing, stopping by, etc., you will never see them. I typically walked away after a few weeks of that.
@Eff why is he only texting her when he is out already? No plans ahead of time. Also mentioning he wants more and to see her apartment? Come on. Clearly a player…
I have a guy who has been texting me every month. Surprisingly it’s always on his day off and always at night. Also it never asks anything just makes statements with a smiley face with sunglasses at the end. Can someone say mass texts?
I also lately have seen him out after not seeing him for months. I always blow him off and he makes a point of saying hi to me when clearly I am ignoring. Again player.
I hope that Grace holds her ground. If he wants to be with her (longterm/seriously) – she wouldn’t have to tell him how to improve. The effort would be there.
“The highest value “target” is a super hot babe who isn’t promiscuous. ”
Every man’s dream, especially when its time for a wife. It can be achieved with varying degrees of effort depending on planetary location.
What is a mass text? Is that when a guy sends ambiguous words to a bunch of different women, all blind copied, just to see who will write back?
“If cads and players wore signs like marathoners wear numbers, filtering out these opportunists would be easy, if somewhat tedious.”
If promiscuous women wore signs like marathoners wear numbers, filtering out these gear-shifters would be easy and all men would commit to appropriate women.
I completely agree with this, but I think Grace was foolish to let it get to that point where she needs to confront him about their get togethers.
The guy should ask you on an actual date from the beginning. Choose the restaurant, chose a date asap and set the hour after her schedule. Meet, eat and chat for 2-3 hours. That’s a date. Don’t drink too much. You’ll learn so much more about what kind of guy he is than if you just ‘meet up’.
Speak in person or over the phone. If he texts, ask him to call. Don’t reply to texts after 11 pm whatsoever. Even if you’re probably not asleep, advertise yourself as the kind of girl who is asleep by then.
A lot of guys want to ‘hang out’, sit in the couch, order in pizza and watch a movie. Many also feel more comfortable and relaxed if their mates are coming along. That doesn’t make them bad people, I love those nights too, but that comes after a few “dates”, not before.
I know so many girls with specific ‘rules’ on when to sleep with a guy, knowing each other for so and so long. What matters is the specific effort he makes, how much he goes out of his way. I actually don’t prefer to start as friends and move on to lovers, it makes it easier for guys to leave things in a gray area. Spotting a player can be hard, but I find that those who appear ‘good’ through 3 long, sober dinner dates usually are.
Escoffier,
I suppose the irritation would–it should–depend on whether the woman was acting as if the attention was having a positive impact. If she implied that, and then backed off, that’s one thing.
If, on the other hand, she said or did nothing but respond neutrally to his contacts, he has no gripe except with himself.
The woman’s suggestion he bail or step up his game tells him he’s inadequate–which nobody likes to hear–and that, simultaneously, he’d be a prospect if he stepped up his game. Which is equally infuriating, since he’s not capable of stepping up his game and he knows it.
Lots to dislike in his position, none of it her fault.
It was, however, a useful filter.
I’m not just looking for casual sex, but I’d probably fail that test too because I have a policy of not investing too heavily in a woman without some kind of reciprocation on her part. I generally try to mirror her level of interest.
The only warning sign I saw was that he was always spontaneous and texting when he was already out.
But as far as him half-assing it, well, she was too.
First time commenter here. I have to say, good for Grace. I’ve dated for a loooong time, and this is a half-assed attempt to “get with” her if I’ve ever seen one. The sad truth is that most women will justify this behavior to themselves and perhaps over-inflate its signifigance, when in reality this is not a serious attempt to date her. This is an attempt to see what he can get with the least amount of effort. Most women are burned several times from mistaking this as genuine effort before they realize that a man who is interested will ask you out on a real date, period. This guy isn’t even a very good player, frankly – true players know that the most highly desireable women expect to be asked out on a real date, and they will take a woman out on a couple of real dates in the beginning in order to successfully manipulate her and make her think their interest is genuine.
Susan,
Very good post.
—
“Every man’s dream, especially when its time for a wife…”
However, a non players/decent guy’s nightmare because most don’t/won’t have the nads to approach her for a relationship.
—
Men are supposed to be hunters. Women don’t hunt.
@Jon
Do you want low quality babes or high quality low promiscuous ones? Sorry you’ll eventually have to put in more effort. Women put in the more effort post marriage (ideally).
If the babe is hot and a catch more than likely she is traditional and needs someone who will SHOW he is interested.
@Beth totally agree
Kaikou,
While simultaneously intimidating a substantial proportion of the guys who see her. Not a bad idea, filtering out the wimps. Problem is, buttheads aren’t intimidated. So she gets good guys approaching, and buttheads. Saves time with the rest, I suppose, but might give her a skewed idea of men in general.
“…true players know that the most highly desireable women expect to be asked out on a real date, and they will take a woman out on a couple of real dates in the beginning in order to successfully manipulate her and make her think their interest is genuine…”
—–
Beth,
Yes, real players will most times offer to wine and dine a very attractive woman upfront. But if he does not bed her by date three (and that is pushing it) he is gone.
@ Richard
I see your point, but what does intimidating mean anyway? In this case, man intimidated by a woman? He was never on her level anyway if he is okay with being “intimidated”.
To me intimidated is code for I am just not into you (or attracted). You make me feel weak rather than build me up stronger.
A complete male stranger shouldn’t be looking to be built up from the start. If so he was no value to her and her future.
@Richard
Re: the buttheads, bad boys, and booboo heads (wimps) comment…
That is the work of a highly valued woman. There are systems in place to protect her (usually family), but she does have to deal with more hits. So what?!
You don’t understand.
Nobody dates anymore. If they get together, they do it by ‘hanging out’ or hooking up.
And if a guy is bold and asks for a date, the girl will flake on him because it’s just so different. She will think he is too aggressive.
Nobody dates anymore. If they get together, they do it by ‘hanging out’ or hooking up.
—-
Men who often date (or bed) very attractive women (not girls) know that those women have certain expectations.
If you wanted to obtain something you felt was highly valuable, wouldn’t you pull out all the stops in order to get it?
Is this girl a virgin waiting for marriage?
Because otherwise, how is she any different from the multitude of women who identify as “non-promiscuous” because they prefer serial monogamy and “relationships” with no binding commitments to multiple simultaneous partners?
Eventually a guy with slower moving game or more sophisticated game will come along and when he’s bored of hitting it he’ll move on. Or the relationship will end through any of the myriad other ways that they do these days. All her “strategy” does is to filter out the lowest level of college game player who thinks hitting up a girl for a booty call constitutes game. Beyond that it’s counterproductive because she’s essentially pushing for guys to remove mystery from the process, and to top it off she’s not reciprocating with her own interest, which is going to push away any man with a clue and make him more reluctant to invest time and energy.
But basically the question is what is the measure of success for her? If it’s marriage, the strategy is simple: date normally, invest your own time and money into your dates as you expect them to do for you and be open and firm about waiting. Otherwise she’s just another little princess who expects men to lay down the red carpet for nothing – no guarantees and nothing special. At some point every man gets tired of hitting the same ass week in week out, so what else do you bring to the table?
@modernguy your post is hilarious, whether it’s true or not is irrelevant because the last sentence is so funny.
I don’t get it…we now live where men can get free sex anywhere anytime really. So why are you mad at this girl? Why does she have to be a virgin for marriage? Maybe just maybe (gasp) she has high standards because she is HIGH quality. If you think every woman is doing this these days you are a sore loser and live in an alternative reality. If she wants to twittle her thumbs let her. Again she is HIGH quality, I don’t think it’s hurting her much. You just want her to lower her standards so that you have reach. Sorry should have been born taller.
Oh Yeah! She is HIGH QUALITY!
Err, what does that mean by the way? Are you trying to tell me that because she’s not tattooed head to toe and blowing the football team that I or any other man would be lucky at the chance to wife her up? Sorry I’m HIGH QUALITY, my standards are better than that.
“…so what else do you bring to the table?”
As a man who is seeking marriage/long-term relationship, he should have this question answered on the first date or hang out or whatever.
Wow, great advice! I just entered the dating scene and would’ve never seen the cad coming like Grace did! I would’ve been so excited and txted him right back, Any more advice about warning signs and what to look out for would be greatly appreciated. The best and only advice I’ve gotten is keep my legs close and date for a mate.
” because she’s not tattooed head to toe and blowing the football team that I or any other man would be lucky at the chance to wife her up?”
THAT is the low bar women want you to have today so they can at least have a chance. Men who show up with higher standards for life-mate selection are both feared and shamed.
@modernguy what does “intimidated” mean (man intimidated by a woman)?
Also don’t worry about her because she was never on your radar to begin with:
“Beyond that it’s counterproductive because she’s essentially pushing for guys to remove mystery from the process, and to top it off she’s not reciprocating with her own interest, which is going to push away any man with a clue and make him more reluctant to invest time and energy.” – Modern Guy
Sounds to me that you are an advocate of the chase (women to men). This lady is not. So again you aren’t even suitable mates to begin with. Let’s just call her different quality then.
“At some point every man gets tired of hitting the same ass week in week out, so what else do you bring to the table?”
So exactly what else does Grace bring to the dating and relationship table? Is she sweet, pleasant, and feminine? Does she view Brady’s wants and desires to be equal to her own? Until we know more about Grace’s personality, she’s nothing more than an empty vessel that Brady seeks to fill (yeah, that’s a double entendre).
Guys who finally figured out the deal (Red Pill wisdom) fall into two basic categories:
1. Players who simply don’t care what a girls offers other than sex. These guys won’t be particularly observant about a girl’s character. They just want sex and will quickly move on.
2. Guys looking for sex AND signs that a woman has good character. Sure, these guys won’t pass up the opportunity for casual sex, but as they are looking far more closely at a girl’s character to see what she offers in addition to her sexuality.
A woman on the receiving end of some woo-pitching needs to be keenly observant to how a man is evaluating her. A player won’t care about her personality unless she’s truly repellant.
Red Pill men are a cagey lot and won’t put up with any bullshit such as demanding behaviors, shit tests, and sundry flakiness. Such guys know they have options and deal with women accordingly.
@abbot let’s just say some of us take this more personally than others.
Your last sentence is gold btw. Anyone who differs from the norm (men wanting a wife or women not being promiscuous) in this society are the losers according to some.
@modernguy
Is mystery a feminine or masculine trait?
INteresting post and comment thread.
This all gets back to the current dating scene, which is essentially combat dating. It’s everyone for themselves, everyone minimizing their own outlay of capital (for men, time and money; for women, sex) before the other person puts his/her cards on the table.
Women are still demanding formal dates and courtship. IOW, they want his investment — his time, his money, his resources; and they want those things before they respond with sex. Women want those things for many reasons — a show of good faith; a display of genuine interest; a display of his provisioning ability. She gets the free meal, entertainment, and drinks; but what does he get? Women want the old courtship rituals, but they don’t want to respond and give the man what he wants (escalating sexual involvement). Courtship has been abused beyond all repair.
Men are wising up to this — even betas and even men just learning game. Men are using two things to find out whether a woman is worth their investment: (1) pushing for sex hard and early; and (2) sharply limiting investment before sex. The first is to find out if she is interested — if she is truly interested in him (not his money, not a free date, but interested in HIM) she will respond sexually. The second is to preserve limited resources and reserve them only for women who will give him what he wants. After all, why should a man invest time, money and resources in a woman BEFORE he finds out her interest level?
Liza207:
“If you wanted to obtain something you felt was highly valuable, wouldn’t you pull out all the stops in order to get it?”
Nope. Not any more. Looking back over my life, I’ve known three women who were “highly valuable”. In today’s SMP and the level of game they required, the work isn’t worth it.
Kaikou:
“we now live where men can get free sex anywhere anytime really.”
Not even close. It’s more like about 5% of men can get free sex anywhere anytime.
@Deti
Does sexual interest mean intercourse? And if not, what are other ways?
@ Deti (#33)
Modernguy knows tattoo girls giving blowjobs in locker rooms. If it isn’t him, he’s watching I guess.
I will correct my statement as free sexual fulfillment either by being the 5%, watching the 5%, or porn.
@modernguy
Just what is High quality to you? It sounds like it wouldn’t matter what kind of girl she is, you’ve already categorized her like you have all women unworthy.
Kaikou:
“Does sexual interest mean intercourse? And if not, what are other ways?”
You don’t really need this explained, do you? It means escalating physical sexual involvement. Doesn’t have to be a ONS or a SNL. But were I in the dating scene, anyone I was dating would have to show strong sexual interest in me before I opened my wallet for anything more than carryout pizza and a movie rental, or committed more than a couple of hours.
Questions for men:
1. What does it mean to be “intimidated” by a woman?
2. How to show sexual interest w/o intercourse? Or with simultaneous male investment (if that’s even what she wants)?
Re: The actual post. It seems to me that Grace responded to his little interest, but never took it to (I want to see your apartment level) because he was lazy. Clearly this guy didn’t really value her (high or low). But I am taking the story at face value.
@Deti
If a High quality woman responded to all the sexual interest she got, would she still be high quality?
Ah, the important question: What is a “high quality” woman in the context of dating and an intimate relationship with a man? This is a question that women are not allowed to answer. That’s because men are the gatekeepers of commitment. For a long term relationship, men are the hiring managers and women are applying for the job.
Deti covered some of this in his Commandments For Women:
1. Thou shalt cultivate a feminine demeanor and bearing. Thou shalt not try to be, look like, or act like a man. Thou shalt observe and obey this Commandment above all others.
2. Thou shalt not use profanity or other coarse language in public.
3. Thou shalt let the man decide where you will go and what you will do on the first few dates.
4. Thou shalt not denigrate thy man in public. Ever.
5. Thou shalt not denigrate or otherwise break bad on thy man to his parents, thy parents, thy coworkers or thy BFFs. Ever.
6. Thou shalt do some things your man likes to do, such as make his favorite foods, do your hair the way he likes, or wear some clothes he likes.
7. Thou shalt not let thyself go. Thou shalt give reasonable care and attention to cultivate a pleasing personal appearance.
8. Thou shalt not try to lead or overrule thy man.
9. Thou shalt let thy man reciprocate thy kindness.
10. Thou shalt not act like a princess.
Full post here:
http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2011/06/06/an-ugly-social-expectation-and-more-on-female-projection/
And here’s a little something about the broken social contract between the genders:
http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2011/08/16/the-broken-gender-social-contract/
Kaikou:
Female intimidation of men means just this: a very attractive woman has options, and she knows it. She gives off an aura to most men that screams “Don’t even THINK about approaching me or even talking to me, much less asking me to “hang out”. I am out of your league, we both know it, and you have NO CHANCE with me. NONE. I will never, not in a million years, go on a date with you.”
And most men clearly pick up on that vibe. It’s unmistakable.
Kaikou:
The flip side of intimidation is that the “buttheads” Richard Aubrey spoke of are not intimidated. Their response to Cupcake’s aura is a refusal to follow the “rules” she lays out. The player says to himself: “Maybe you are out of my league, but I don’t care. Say yes, it’s cool. Say no, that’s cool too.” Then he steps to her and says: “Come over to my place at 8:00 and bring a movie.”
@PrivateMan
I guess than women are the gatekeepers for shortterm. Grace saw this guy was not even worth her short term commitment and she told him.
How is a guy communicating through text and already planned outings going to receive any of those commandments? Or rather why should he. Back to the actual story at hand. Grace works with the lad so if he wants access he has it. But I suspect that he is not.
What is an “intimate relationship” in your comment?
Also I see no where “have intercourse” or show sexual interest because a guy you works with texts you and you suspect he is a Cad and TELL him so.
Most of the commandments are about showing respect (what men want). Respect starts from within first not last. Maybe Grace’s vessel (Deti) is filled with self-respect that there isn’t room. She is willing to share, but something internally costly worth something externally costly?
@Privateman,
I like the list, and agree with it, however the reactions I have read on this and a few other post have led me to believe that men don’t have any respect for women at all. I get the reasons for it, but it puts me on the defensive (I think this might me the shit testing you talk about,) which men then get mad about. Seems like a vicious cycle.
Kaikou maybe you should read my first comment again, you seem to have taken it more personally than I intended it. It’s a simple question really. What is she looking for, and what is she offering in return? As you said, sex is easy (for the kinds of men she’s interested in), so what sets her apart from the other girls that would merit long term investment, keeping in mind that that itself needs to be defined here? Are we talking about marriage or just a relationship? There is a big difference.
@Wants to know:
There are different levels of quality, obviously, based on personality and looks. But what is she asking for here? Is she asking for marriage, or just a casual relationship?
It’s funny to see all the hysteria that ensues when you ask a woman to qualify herself, especially when she’s really not that different from other girls in her peer group except that she has higher expectations. There is a simple test:
First, are you a virgin? If you aren’t, you can essentially be disqualified from marriage. There is simply no reason for a man to marry unless he’s marrying a virgin. It’s an exchange of total commitment for total fidelity. There are plenty of men who marry non-virgins of course, but they are basically making a mistake. They aren’t getting anything in exchange.
Next is how you measure up on looks and personality, which can have all kinds of variables and it will determine what kind of man you can attract.
There’s a lot of obfuscation around these points but they are belied by the fact that a good looking virgin with a good personality who is holding out for marriage doesn’t need game. Any kind of game. She doesn’t need to make men pay for dinners or dates or anything. She doesn’t need to guage their interest or demand more interest or screen for players. If she’s firm the players will fall off and she can evaluate the ones that remain based on whatever she wants.
@Deti (#41)
AND therefore she was never in your league (low or high) because you would either find that masculine or she would pick up on you feeling (un)masculine aka looking to receive not give. Not a match a made in heaven.
@Deti (#42) bring de movies
deti,
Good points. The 9/10 women are approached by confident good men and by butthead players who aren’t put off by the “don’t even think it” aura. The latter, despite some version of confidence, are not the same as good men, necessarily.
The women spoken of are not approached by the in-betweeners.
Recently, talking to my wife and daughter about such things, they remarked on women they knew whom I knew and by extension women I didn’t know back in the day.
They were 9/10, or at least, say, 7/8 with huge chests. When they got to college, they decided to pull it back. No makeup, pony tails, floppy sweatshirts.
Or, in other situations, the “aura”.
Whatever it took to get through the day.
@modernguy
Reveals his hand at #45. I won’t commit towards you anymore. Sorry I misinterpreted you.
Re: “Be less interested or more interested.”
Don’t get me wrong, as a guy I don’t like shit test – not one bit. From a guys perspective, I wouldnt have enjoyed getting this text.
That being said, “I want to ‘more interested’” is definitely want a man of genuine interest would reply with, IMO.
I can’t say I’m a huge fan of this “holding out” strategy – that’s what it seems like. There are simply far too much loopholes, while at the same time possibly disqualifying fine men.
1. The persistent players – who is used to shit tests, and will pass with flying colors, cause he’s used to saying all sorts of this, and pretending to being genuinely interested in a LTR might be a small part of his arsenal.
“holding out” with this guy is only going measure his determination, albeit there will be less with such amount but he’ll still fool you.
2. The good guy – who isn’t used to this kind of testing. And he might view the girls “emotional unavailablity” as it would be viewed of a man – a sign of her having copious other options. Which for a guy with less experienc (n regards to shit-tests) or high standards himself, is not going to be a motivator.
There are two ways in which a woman can hold out on a guy: emotional and physical. It seems as though Grace’s strategy was to withhold both.
Which makes me wonder what, or how much, does she expect for free?
@Kaikou
Does High Qaulity mean a man ought to pay in full, upfront?
It sounds like Grace was withholding emotionally too.
I think we should acknowledge that a guys can also “find out [she] “wasn’t trying to turn this into anything.” when asking “what it is we’re doing.”
There is qualifying to be done by both sides.
Re: group text vs mass text
I’m not sure if Grace actually thought Brady was “group texting” as far as I know guys do not group text, ESPECIALLY if it were to someone were trying to court. Whereas mass-text is something I’ve only heard players do at late night for booty calls
@wantstoknow
A man leads (or so the saying says) so if he doesn’t lead with respect he has none for you or isn’t willing to show it no matter what you do. I’m with you girly.
Men show me respect and I can show you how I can match it. I feel like that’s what Grace was saying with her (less interest/ more interest) line. Show respect for my time or that I am even worth yours and I will show you how I can match it.
“A woman places her hand in a man’s palm” not the other way around. He can always let go.
Correction:
Men show me respect and I can show you how I can match it or better yet do it better.
Nope. Not any more. Looking back over my life, I’ve known three women who were “highly valuable”. In today’s SMP and the level of game they required, the work isn’t worth it.
—-
deti,
I was referring to high SMV (looks). I wanted to refrain from injecting myself as an example. However, here goes. Last week, I was asked out for dinner and drinks by a player that was younger than I was (I am in my thirties and he in his twenties). I do not ever remember some guy asking me out without with him offering to take me out on a formal date. Yes, in this day and age.
So, let me repeat: Men who often date (and bed) very attractive women (high SMV) know that those women have certain expectations because they have been treated a certain by men due to their high SMV and often will not settle. To those men it is not even a question because of their vast experience with these women. Those are the women they often pursue and know what they have to come to the table with in order to get sex and intimacy from them even if is just for the short-term.
I guess guys who pursue and only hope to attain women who are of low SMV are bewildered by this.
If you wanted to obtain something you felt was highly valuable, wouldn’t you make every effort to impress in order to get it?
By the way, I get the impression that many men here may not know what characteristics and traits a quality woman possesses. I really hope I am wrong.
@Susan
The fact that they’re both fresh out of college tells you all you need to know about what happened. Brady is using the same strategy that you use with girls when you’re in college, because in college nobody “dates”, they just “hang out”. It sounds like Grace is now thinking “we’re adults, let’s have a proper dinner date” and he’s not on the same page. But as has already been discussed on this blog at some length: traditional dating even among people out of college is on life support.
When I read this, I felt like we didn’t have a clear picture of what actually went on. It could be that Grace isn’t the type of girl to meet a guy halfway, or that she’s just not that interested in Brady. It sounds like all of the texts came from Brady’s direction and never from Grace. If she wants a relationship, this would be a losing strategy. What can you tell us about Grace’s attitudes with regards to showing interest? What vibe does she give off? I’m asking because this is crucial to know- I could see a lot of girls reading this and thinking that this means they can play hard to get, and that’s not going to help them. This whole getting together thing (I’m not going to use “dating” because it doesn’t apply here yet) is a dance, where both people progressively have to take steps, otherwise it doesn’t work. Just because you have one high card in the deck (i.e. you’re hot) doesn’t mean you can ignore the rest of your hand. Any dude with options and his shit together will consider all that you’re offering and not be willing to bend over backwards just for you. These days, he probably won’t be very willing to employ a strategy (“dinner dating”) that is largely dead.
So yeah, I’m curious what your honest interpretation is of Grace’s personality because that’s equally important to any strategy she is employing.
@Kaikou
Not that hard if you actually like a guy. Be touchy-feely, find excuses to touch him and be close, and make it clear that you like him in a physical way. That’s assuming you actually DO like him in a physical way. If you don’t, it’s pretty much doomed from jump. One or both of you will lose interest pretty quickly.
Kaikou:
“If a High quality woman responded to all the sexual interest she got, would she still be high quality?”
Trick question. A high quality woman would not in the first place respond to all the sexual interest she received. She has very good filters in place and has finely tuned attraction triggers.
Another thing to mention regarding “holding out.” is that many women will adopt this type of filtering for their relationship-life, but not their sex-life.
I’ve known a few girls that considered it completely OK, to have had casual encounters because they chose and intended them to be such. Yet they’ll also choose to withhold for relationship-filtering purposes.
If a guy (presumably the LTR-type that your filtering) finds out your withholding more for him, than you have for however many others, well, he surely isn’t going to be flattered. (I say flattered because the girls I’ve known that tried this often would used the excuse “your better than those ones” – “better” doesn’t mean “wait longer”)
@Abbott
You forget yourself, a woman’s appropriateness is for her to decide, not the man she chooses.
@Modernguy,
wow thats some harsh rule about virginity. I wouldn’t be here if my Dad had thought that way, I guess 25yrs. of a great marriage, would never erase my Mom’s one mistake…
So the basic rules for girls are don’t make any mistakes (like fall for a guy/cad,) never get ugly (don’t have a bad day in public,) and qualify myself from the start, and watch them go running because I’m talking LTR?
Hummmm I’ll get back to you on that once I’ve spent sometime in the real world.
@ Wants to know
“…led me to believe that men don’t have any respect for women at all”
This is the primary difference between guys with Red Pill wisdom and rest of the uneducated masses of masculinity. It’s not that Red Pill guys have no respect for women, it’s that our default mode is NOT to automatically pedestalize women. Frankly, women have to earn our respect. We don’t automatically give women respect simply because they are women.
I’m with modernguy and PrivateMan on this issue: It is just fascinating to witness the sturm und drang that inevitably shows up when women are asked to qualify themselves.
The questions are really quite simple. If women want anything more than flings and STRs in today’s SMP, they had best start coming up with compelling answers.
What do you bring to the table?
Why should any man invest time, money and resources in you?
How will being with or spending time, money and resources on you enhance a man’s life?
Why should any man take himself off the market and devote his personal intimacies solely to you?
_______________________________
Why is it so difficult for women to answer these questions?
Why do the women on this thread take such offense at these questions even being posed?
Dates are not a good way to get women interested, so men have stopped doing it. Nowadays guys want to “hang out” first, and only date if there’s really strong signals of attraction. As a woman, don’t do anything physical in the “hang out” phase. Forget all the advice from men that you should touch him and kiss him. You can do that and get precisely nowhere.
The most important thing is emotional escalation. The woman should not escalate physically. She should be the one to escalate emotionally. She should start the deeper conversations, ask the probing questions, and disclose her emotions if she feels them (i.e. “I find myself thinking about you all the time” “It makes me happy when you’re near” “I think I might be falling for you”).
At this point, one of two things will happen. 1) He says the same stuff in return. 2) He hems and haws and avoids emotional escalation with you. If 1), then ask for a relationship, ask about your future, continue escalation to see how far he sees it potentially going (my husband told me he could see me as his wife a few days into this). If 2), eject and leave with +0 to partner count.
In short, show your hand, but don’t let him take it from you unless he shows his hand, too.
Who is talking dinner on the first outing?
Again is it too much to ask for a man to suggest a one-on-one outing of any kind (preferably an activity and possibly one he was going to do anyway – i.e. walk the dog, go for a jog, try that new ice cream spot) NOT text you when he is already out with friends and tell you he wants to see your apartment? I mean come on. Only fools fall in love.
@Deti # 54
You caught me. I am the coyote of this tale.
@Marie
I almost agree, but why can’t the bolded part read, “You should ask the guy”.
One, it speeds up the process (which you noted was an error on Grace’s part). Second, it shows you’re willing to invest as well. Third, it communicates interest.
I’ll 90% endorse this. My gf and I communicate a lot by text and by that I mean communicate. If you work in a cube farm and need to communicate at work texts aren’t overheard or scanned like emails. So during working hours if texts are actual conversations I think that’s okay. Also, sometimes they work better if one of us is someplace noisy although that could be age talking.
Again, you’re in the age of equality. If you want dates ask the guy out. Also, indicate a willingness to pay. A lot of guys hear, “I expect a date” and think, “She wants me to buy her stuff”. Too many princess feminists have spoiled the pool especially given the economy is harder on men than women on the whole right now.
Demanding dates, especially without an indication of willingness to pay, is going to be a fast track to the “put out by date three” track because now you’re demanding investment from me and he’ll want it back.
@Liza
“By the way, I get the impression that many men here may not know what characteristics and traits a quality woman possesses. I really hope I am wrong.”
It would help if you all came with Odometers.
*jokes!*
I love BroHamlet.
I love Mr. Cooper too!
@Wants to know
What does you being here have to do with it? Even prostitutes and porn stars have children.
If your dad was looking to get married nowadays he would be wise to really understand the nature of the “mistake” your mom made and if it was really only one. Everyone has to be on their guard really.
@Deti
Private Man already said what women should bring. And when she does bring it? How will a guy know if he is just texting her? That’s the real question. At a point everyone takes a step forward and in this day and age it’s not always together (at the start). Doesn’t mean the women should change or the men for that matter it just means they are not on the same level and not compatible. Thumb twittler isn’t compatible with Cliff leaper, you know?
@Wantstoknow
There’s a name for guys like Modernguy its the nickname for Charles surname Shoulder
If only snide remarks would solve your real-world problems, kaikou…
@Jon
+1
Why can’t she step up if she’s interested? If she’s not interested why didn’t she just tell him, “I’m not interested, thanks.”
Women who want LTR anymore need to be willing to take some initiative on their own. Dating is too full of land mines for men in terms of money and time costs, rejection, and social blowback.
The last one I think is what too many women haven’t grokked. Feminism, in the name of protecting women from abuse, badgering, and other ‘dangerous’ have greatly increased the social cost of cold approaching or misunderstanding the desire of women to be approached. I think Liza’s early issues about thinking she was clearly indicating interest were a perfect example. She just hadn’t been in his shoes where unwanted approaches can get you labeled creepy, where men are hammered with ‘women want to be left alone at the gym’ (to the point where misjudging could cost him his membership), and the odds he’s had blowback at least once before.
It doesn’t matter if you agree with all the feminist rules or not. Men have to live inside the world they created and that means you are going to have to step up more than even 25 years ago and the passive maiden of 50 years ago is going to be raising cats.
@Hope
The saving Grace or rather the Great White Hope at #60
@Herb #62
Just say you agree. Your not giving up your man card. Your moving up to an unlimited account. ;D
Deti, very good points, and all reasons why women should not demand or expect “dates.” There is no rational reason why a man should be expected to shell out resources to wine and dine a woman for a tiny % chance at something panning out with her, and having to do this over and over again spending lots of money on different women.
My suggestion is for the woman to bring her own game to the table: not demand anything money-wise, but not give anything body-wise. Escalate emotionally rather than physically. Get to know him without asking him to spend a penny. Screen him hard, but also qualify herself hard. Tell him how she can enhance his life, show him what skills she possesses, and demonstrate that her high standards also come with high quality.
@Privateman,
I like what you have to say, but more importantly how you say it. I’ll take your words to heart. My Dad always says a man should be able to do three things in a marriage, Provide, Protect and Possess. If he can prove to you he can do these things then marry him. To me none of these can happen without the key element of respect.
@Kaikou,
@deti,
If I was asked what I brought to the table would you really want to hear things like loyalty, patience, helpmate, or would you want to know financial aspects (which if I understand correctly are really not that important to men,) or is it physical? Maybe the questions aren’t being asked clearly?
My ears were ringing. Did someone call me? Charles is that you? I don’t mind corresponding with you, but I don’t care too much for the tattooed promiscuous girl, prostitute, or pornstar references that follow you like Pig-Pen.
All my love, Charles.
-Kaikou
Just keepin it real kaikou.
Yup. But one-on-one outings are fine, they just can’t be boring (obviously). It’s a “date” but by another name, and dinner just sends all the wrong messages lately, which is why it is best for it to be something non-traditional.
LOL. Really? It sounds like you may be thinking that the hangout phase is when two people are hanging with a group friends, in which case I would agree with you (making out in front of friends = AWKWARD!). That’s not what I’m talking about at all, though. I’m talking about after you’ve met and there is some interest, during a first meetup where it’s just the two of you. A kiss at the end of the night, then some closeness on subsequent outings is exactly how it should be done during this stage if you want him to stay interested. This is part of Girl Game- not to fast or he’ll think “hookup”, not too slow or he’ll lose interest.
Ok wait, wait, pump the brakes (shaking my head here). You can only do this AFTER you’re both on board with something more serious. Too early on and this is just plain creepy, and screams “clinger” a la Wedding Crashers.
I respect your advice and your opinions on this blog, Hope, but you just plain aren’t being accurate about when it’s appropriate to use these strategies you’re talking about. You have to be more specific.
@Hope
I agree with you beautiful lady, but in reference to the actual post non of that can happen through text messages or hanging with you while you hang with the boys.
I get it. Men want you to razzle dazzle ‘em and they’ll make you a star. But they need to know how to spot talent or at least potential first or we ain’t making it to Broadway (or rather the morning papers – to keep it era specific)
Wants to Know 72:
“If I was asked what I brought to the table would you really want to hear things like loyalty, patience, helpmate, or would you want to know financial aspects (which if I understand correctly are really not that important to men,) or is it physical? Maybe the questions aren’t being asked clearly?”
First and foremost, men are evaluating women on their physical appearance. You need to bring a pleasing physical appearance to the table. You’d be surprised at how easy it is to qualify yourself to most men on this: Keep your weight down, your hair long, and your makeup on. Half the battle is just being within 20 pounds of your ideal weight.
A very, very close second is your personality. You MUST bring a nice, kind, pleasant demeanor; a cheerful outlook on life. You need to be loyal, patient, kind and HONEST. Your sex partner count will come up. You need to respond honestly. If you lie about it, the truth will eventually come out, and the fallout will not be pretty. You need to understand and accept that a high sex partner count might disqualify you to many men as wife material. If you want a husband, you need homemaking skills. If you don’t have them, cultivate them.
@modernguy #74
Something tells me that you are better than “just keeping it real”. Somebody sometime somewhere said: “Life is what dreams are made of”. Not the other way around. Raise the bar alone, it makes you strong and handsome.
With all do respect, Sir Deti…you teeter totter too much. Not that your points aren’t valid or true just you chose to say them in a roundabout way. To my feminine ears it sounds like someone towing the line. Aren’t you in a relationship? She’s a beauty ain’t she?
The primary red-flag in this is the late-night texts. If he did this once or twice I might think he was bad at planning, or he was trying to show off that he was a fun guy; but if he is doing it regularly I would say that you’re a back-up plan.
Another tip; a woman should not say stuff in a hard, masculine fashion or give ultimatums like “Either stop contacting me or step it up.” The more a woman uses hard, sharp and demanding phrasing combined with stereotypical “bitchy” tones, the more men will dismiss her.
The best way to talk to a man is to use a soft, small voice, be emotionally vulnerable to disarm his armor, and penetrate his armor with sweetness and kindness. That is the most brutal combination of attacks that render most men virtually defenseless. Don’t be shrill, don’t be melodramatic, don’t be loud, and don’t be bitchy. Instead, be feminine.
What she could have said instead: “I like hanging out with you, but it seems like you aren’t that into me. If you really do like me, please talk to me more, take me out somewhere, and spend more time with me. I don’t want to get hurt, so if you don’t like me that way, it would be best if you told me now.”
There. If he is built like a normal person, he’d feel guilty if he wanted to just pump and dump her, and would probably stop contacting her. He’d be happy if he really liked her and did want to see her more, and now he has verbal confirmation that he can and should. She comes across as more vulnerable, which is more attractive. There are no downsides.
Obviously a player, from very beginning. Plowed through the “but we work together” shit test effortlessly.
Hi Hope @71,
I get what you’re saying.
“… and having to do this over and over again spending lots of money on different women.”
—–
Players only do this for certain women this is not how most operate. If they can get something for nothing they normally go for that. But if the woman has a high enough SMV he will ask her out on an actual date. Men will work harder to get a very attractive because he knows it wont be as easy to bed her.
For example, I have heard that G. Clooney will wine and dine, take women on expensive trips, fly them on his private in order to woo before he has sex with them. Does he reallly have to do this? Probably not. The thing is, the women he is doing this for are women of high SMV.
Hope, another thing women don’t usually demand that men wine and dine them–totally tacky.
I do agree that she should demonstrate her worth to him if she wants that guy for the long haul.
You know there is some great advice here. Thanks.
Kaikou you are a strong beautiful soul. Your words inspire me to be better. Lead me with your powerful thunderous thighs.
Good advice Hope, but hard to square with the western female’s demands for “respect” and independence.
Kaikou, text messages are just fine. My husband and I did a combination of chatting online via im, text messages and phone calls, and we got to know each other really well. Face-to-face time is important, but it’s too easy for the physical escalation to happen sans emotional escalation.
BroHamlet, hanging out can be non-physical like I just said to Kaikou. Also, I definitely wasn’t suggesting saying all that within the first day! That would send out red flags of course. Most girls are socially savvy enough to know the appropriate times to escalate emotionally, but most are also holding back because they are afraid of showing their hand. I’m suggesting to show the hand, because that distinguishes her from the other girls who are playing hard to get or emotionally distant.
Susan has an old post about this (showing hand), and it’s also how she got her husband.
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/06/02/relationshipstrategies/say-what-you-need-to-say/
@modernguy
What kind of sounds do I make? If I am in a forest dancing can you hear me?
Question for everyone: Can true love be found on the Hooking Up Smart site? I’m asking for a friend.
@Hope
Hope, I really, really like this. At the same time, women want sex to happen quickly enough not to get bored with a guy and most want it before they get into relationship mode. I agree with this (as most men do, obviously) because one way or another the physical part is going to come up. I’m curious what you would consider to be an appropriate middle ground with regards to the physical during this period of emotional escalation that you suggest.
Kaikou, Modernguy – Get a room.
@ Herb
I understand now that the entire “men should ask you out on a dinner date” makes men worry about finances and I didn’t think of it that way.
I always offer to pay half and I think all women should, it’s common courtesy (although I’ve never experienced a man not insisting to pay I might add).
The next date ma might as well be a cup of coffee, going somewhere together, see an exhibition, whatever. It doesn’t have to cost, my main point is that it is planned in advance and requires the two of you to meet up, alone, but in public.
I’m afraid I’m old-fashioned with the asking-out dance. I wait for a man’s initiative to ask me out, always, and even initiate contact or contacting me just to ask how I am. I always respond positively though and get back to him within reasonable time. I don’t consider it playing hard to get (I don’t go silent for days or let him question my interest and I’m very affectionate with him).
When it comes to contact, I really follow this:
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/09/dont-initiate-contact.html
Liza, I see what you mean, and a few times in my life guys did take me out to expensive dates and dinners. I don’t have really high SMV, so I can’t speak to what men usually do to woo such women.
However, in my opinion, it means much more when a guy will talk to me for hours on end and tell me about his childhood, dreams, hopes and fears. Dinner conversation is just small talk, not establishing real emotional connection.
Maybe the older men can fall in love with the old fashioned rules of dating, but I’m talking about men of my generation, Millenials in their 20s. I had more offers of marriages and long term relationships than I knew what to do with, but few formal dates.
“Sounds like he is putting in all the effort and she is putting in none. I can see why he is irritated at her response”
What effort is he putting in? He texts her and he walks her to her car after seeing her at a party. He doesn’t call her, he makes no effort to make future plans with her, he doesn’t ask her out.
If he were really interested in more than a booty call, he would make an effort. He doesn’t have to spend money, just go out for coffee and see that she gets home safely.
Grace did the right thing.
Hi Susan! It’s been a while since I’ve commented. I’m on my iPhone since my IT dept blocks your site.
I’d like to strongly disagree with one of your propositions: the most attractive women have the least casual sex.
This may be because:
1. We define attractive differently
2. We’re in different dating markets
The only reason a good looking girl would have less sex is if there aren’t many men that approach them normally without awkwardness. I find hot girls are easier since all you need to do is maintain composure which most guys can’t.
However, what I’ve seen is the most physically attractive girls have more sex since they won’t pay a penalty. Gisele racked up a large number of partners many publicly and still had enough appeal to secure commitment from Tom Brady, a top male.
I consider myself average to slightly above average. When I approach average girls, they verbally and open debate whether they should do anything with me in terms of “this won’t work out”, “we don’t share friends”, “we have nothing in common”. The hot girls never do that.
It’s as if the average girls save their count for men that can become long-term since purity and reputation is one way they can compete with the models.
This is 100% my experience. I’d love to hear your thoughts!
@Kaikou
I have no problem putting in more effort, it’s just that the girl has to earn it first. Start with fun casual/hang-out dates and work our way up to “real” dates. Just being high value in and of itself isn’t enough.
A person’s value is only relevant to the extent they are willing to make it available to others, and traditional dating tends to feature a very lopsided exchange of value in the beginning.
I think George Wither said it best in this excerpt from his poem Shall I Wasting in Despair
And as a side note, first date dinner dates are out. If you want a reason, watch the movie Shop Girl or look up the video clip on youtube – it’s painful just thinking about it. They’re really more like interviews while eating than dates.
The more I think about it though, I’m inclined to say that Grace made the right call about Brady. Only texting late at night when he’s out with his friends is tacky at best, and she did offer the option of going for a run as a way he could step up his game. My knee jerk reaction was to assume that she wanted to be wined and dined before taking the next step, and I now feel like that was an incorrect assumption.
One thing I’m not clear about is if she actually went over to his place for drinks or if he just invited her, because that would count as a casual/hang-out date in my book, and if it went well could qualify her for the next level.
BroHamlet, during emotional escalation phase, the woman can tell the guy what she wants to do to him sexually. It is said that the biggest sex organ is the brain, and revving up his imagination and anticipation is a good way to show her sexual interest. I had awesome conversations with my husband before we did anything physical. I was extremely attracted to him, and that emotional/psychological attraction turbo-charged the physical attraction. It didn’t take long for us to basically go to phone sex.
If a guy isn’t interested in that, he’s likely not emotionally invested in her or attracted to her to get sexually turned on by non-physical stuff. It’s probably something with the Millenial generation, but people in the old days did write love letters to each other, and probably got into some sexy stuff. The emails and texts are kind of modern analogies.
@Liza
We know them.
What we don’t know is who has them. Modern women for some reason want to be good men or act like they’re sluts (even when they often aren’t) and many seem to hide that they are quality women.
Plus, too many will throw that quality to the side for fun and then put it back on never realizing that’s a dry clean garment.
Wants to know 84:
You’re welcome.
Note that I said nothing about your financial contributions to an LTR. In terms of attraction, men do not care one bit about the following:
1. Your job.
2. Your wage/salary, how much money you make, or your future earning potential.
3. The places you’ve traveled to.
4. Where you went to college or grad school, or even whether you went to college or grad school.
5. The interesting/famous/notorious people you have met, seen or worked with.
However, we do care very much about:
1. How many men you have had sex with (“Sex” meaning “how many penises has some part of your body touched in any way, shape, manner or form”)
2. The way you got to that number of men (ONSs? SNLs? LTRs? Flings?)
3. Your candor, honesty and forthrightness about 1 and 2 above.
4. Whether you are divorced.
5. Whether you already have children.
6. Your trustworthiness with his money, assets, time, and knowledge of the intimate details of his life.
7. How available you are to him.
8. How kind and pleasant you are to him.
9. Your willingness to submit to and subordinate yourself to his life plan.
@deti
I’ll tell you what I told Abbott:
You forget yourself, a woman’s appropriateness is for her to decide, not the man she chooses.
This is a filter, we can be sure of that, but it is not going to be a successful one.
All this ‘move’ does is say ‘I’m not as easy* as you thought.’ Cads will not be deterred by this because we never deterred by anything we want and we have little to no shame.
*Easy is a very relative term.
Chuck
To be more clear, Brady sounds like a classless wanker emulating the actions of more successful men.
Chuck
10. Your overall character and integrity (i.e. are you honest about your background? Are you hiding something? Did you get caught in a lie? Does your story check out? Are you really who you represent yourself to be?)
Women are still demanding formal dates and courtship. IOW, they want his investment — his time, his money, his resources; and they want those things before they respond with sex. Women want those things for many reasons — a show of good faith; a display of genuine interest; a display of his provisioning ability. She gets the free meal, entertainment, and drinks; but what does he get? Women want the old courtship rituals, but they don’t want to respond and give the man what he wants (escalating sexual involvement). Courtship has been abused.
I’ve said this before, but, since it never gets old, I’ll say it again. First dates need to be low investment and highly informative for both parties. A first date activity should not involve a big financial outlay on the guy’s part or a big emotional/sexual outlay on the woman’s part. It should be wallpaper for getting to know one another. A walk in the park, a trip to the zoo, a coffee date–any activity that affords an opportunity to talk to one another is a good first date. Gals: If a guy isn’t looking to get to know you, he isn’t looking for more than sex. Guys: If a woman insists that you spend big money for the chance to get to know her, you have found a golddigger.
Herb 99:
Not following you. Maybe you’re being sarcastic in which case I think I get it. As the man, I get to decide her propriety.
@Wants to Know
I don’t want words in any case. I want evidence.
I don’t care about money and I can see your looks.
When did you offer to pay for a date? That’s less about money than it is respect that I work just as hard as you for money and that in a relationship the flow of energy isn’t one way, even energy expended elsewhere.
Were you willing to pick up my suit when we had a formal date and I was running late at work? Are you ready when I’m supposed to pick you up or are you the classic half-hour late women in getting ready? When I was so sick I stayed home from work (five or six times this century) did you stop to check on me and when you noticed I had gotten sick and wasn’t able to clean it all up did you take care of it? Did you bring your parking pass even though I drove to save us time and me some money? Did you take the time to wait online to get the Dead Can Dance tickets at 6am so I could sleep in after I did the same for Lorenna McKinnett?
Too many women I’ve met thought none of that was a reasonable expectation for an LTR.
Herb:
“By the way, I get the impression that many men here may not know what characteristics and traits a quality woman possesses. I really hope I am wrong.
We know them.
What we don’t know is who has them. Modern women for some reason want to be good men or act like they’re sluts (even when they often aren’t) and many seem to hide that they are quality women.”
Sluts are also becoming quite adept at mimicing nonpromiscuous women. They have enlisted the full support of North American Churchianity for this, hence the rise of “reformed sluts” and “born again virgins”.
Hence also
1. the creative partner count methods
2. the “I want to wait for sex with you. I’m not like that anymore and you’re really special” speech
3. the “how dare you judge me!” retort
4. the “but men do it too!” retort
@Liza
For Christsakes Liza, I’m in the top 20% of income and that’s a ridiculous standard for me. Even if I could afford it, screw you. Any woman who needs a princess moment to start a relationship is going to be too expensive to keep for anyone.
You can never be rich enough to be a junkie…or marry a princess.
@The Private Man #27. I agree with you for the most part. I would add one qualifier on one of your statements.
‘Guys who finally figured out the deal (Red Pill wisdom) –and still need female validation– fall into two basic categories:’
@modernguy ‘It’s an exchange of total commitment for total fidelity.’
And here is a statement that is very important, but is perceived quite differently. Our society demands the man put almost everything on the line, enforced by the state, and punished by social stigma for not staying married. There are strong enforcement arms at the state and federal level to ensure men’s commitment carries far beyond marriage.
But, women want to get out of the last part, and Feminism has told them that they have no obligation to the man to remain chaste or pure. The state has no enforcement arm to ensure that women will refrain from sleeping with whoever they want.
The thought of such a department would seem totalitarian, but yet, we have no such qualms about burdening men with providing for someone long after the relationship has ended.
There is no reason to pursue ‘quality women’ as long as the arm of the state enables the enslavement of men in family courts.
@deti
Me, sarcastic…it is one of the services I offer.
Most women seem to want to screen men but cry foul when men do the same. Most women want to be allowed to qualify the man and themselves (hence, the man they choose). Many women even want to be allowed to abusively disqualify men for just saying, “hi”.
“*Easy is a very relative term.”
In the West, most of it is just fake easy aka gear-shifting, duping, remaking…all manipulative behavior performed in defensive reaction to male nature and how men think. It is odd that feminists flat out deny this nature of men and yet their female subjects have honed the skill of working around it.
Hope:
“The more a woman uses hard, sharp and demanding phrasing combined with stereotypical “bitchy” tones, the more men will dismiss her.
The best way to talk to a man is to use a soft, small voice, be emotionally vulnerable to disarm his armor, and penetrate his armor with sweetness and kindness. That is the most brutal combination of attacks that render most men virtually defenseless. Don’t be shrill, don’t be melodramatic, don’t be loud, and don’t be bitchy. Instead, be feminine.”
Very good advice!
One of my favourite blogs is the sanctuary. She is a great example of girl game in the way she writes in a feminine way with very little sharp edges yet is extremely persuasive. For me her writing is attraction generating. If I met a girl that wrote like that or talked in an analogous way that would be a major pluss.
@Marie
With a quality woman most men are happy to pay more often than not. However, in this day and age of entitled princesses raised on grrl power and you can have it all, men have to suspect you’re using them for a free meal (that Match.com whore who wrote about her and her friends doing just that on the Internet didn’t help your case, but she’s just the latest). Offering to pay does more to tell him, “I’m not a princess” than a loop saying, “she’s not a princess” could ever do”.
My current gf insisted on alternating for a long time. It wasn’t until she realized my performance bonus for last year was more than she made last year that she let me pay 2 out of 3. Anymore I’d be happy to just pay but the fact she pretty much holds it to 2 out of 3 (admittedly letting me pick up the larger ones usually) does a lot to signal value.
The problem isn’t you. Men are raised today to not ask women out because that’s objectifying/patriarchal/this week’s buzz word. You really should listen to the crap boys get taught in sex ed and college freshman get in orientation or ready that Feministing article that uses as proof that all men are potential rapists the put your arm on the door and ask for a kiss tactic.
In that environment every man isn’t in a bad neighborhood, he’s walking point in country when asking a woman out.
@deti
But were I in the dating scene, anyone I was dating would have to show strong sexual interest in me before I opened my wallet for anything more than carryout pizza and a movie rental, or committed more than a couple of hours.
I didn’t expect an answer to my last comment (#103) which was built on yours, but I have a serious question regarding the comment above. If all you would be willing invest in a woman who has not expressed a strong sexual interst in you is a few hours of your time, how could any woman who was interested in more than sex make a reasonable decision about you? If I were to find myself back on the market, I’d avoid men who weren’t willing to invest their time in me like the plague. I can’t imagine hopping into the sack with someone as a prerequisite to getting to know him. I would expect that most self-respecting women would walk away for such a man.
@ Ohiostater
To give me personal experience: I would qualify as high SMV, and have many friends who do as well. In general, the most promiscuous girls I know are reasonably attractive, but not top notch.
Usually they are either slightly older (30s), or girls who became attractive slightly late and are not used to the attention. Older women being ‘easier’ is well known to must young men, which is why they pursue them. Often they choose the promiscuous path when their friends get married and they fell behind.
It’s true that very attractive girls don’t necessarily have to suffer the ‘penalty’. I even know a girl who’s cute but not amazing, about a 7, and have 50+ partners, and just got engaged to an amazing guy. I think few women find it worth gambling on though. Women that are both high SMV and of high social status, usually want a guy of similar status. The social circle is smaller, and even if your number doesn’t matter, there is a higher risk of a guy you’ve slept with being familiar with other guys in the same circle. That can potentially be a deal breaker for many guys, even for good-looking girls.
)
There are more high SMV women than high SMV men, at least where I’m from (based on the typical SMV standards of men and women), and out of the high SMV men there is an even smaller pool of those men in their mid-twenties looking for commitment (as they could potentially sleep around). They can still be so selective that it makes sense for us to not sleep around.
Not to mention I don’t think most attractive women have ‘penalty’ in mind in terms of sleeping around. Most women get limited pleasure from it, and attractive women don’t need the validation. I still think validation is the main reason some women sleep around, not what “they can get away with”. (Getting away with as much as you can is a male mindset
“we have no such qualms about burdening men with providing for someone long after the relationship has ended.”
we have no such qualms about burdening men with providing for someone shortly after she ends her multi-man sexual activity
You are terrible at guessing your own SMV, because you are tragically human.
Anecdotes never equal data.
Chuck
Interesting post. It has shades of the “X reasons to date a beta” that have been floating around here.
Many of the men you call “cads” & “players” are actually quality guys who’ve been burned by hypergamy, and who see a whole lot of women out there unsuitable for LTR but are at least fun to hang out with. These men (speaking for myself here) *will* commit for a quality girl. Interestingly, I think this advice is good. Essentially what she’s doing with the shit test “give more or less interest” is qualifying the men in her life. That’s the purpose of *all* shit tests. So either one of three things will happen: the dude will step up his game by demonstrating his fitness, or fail to do so, or decline to even try, because he doesn’t see her as LTR material.
So this post, in a way, accomplishes what the “date a beta male” post did not: providing real-world tools for women to help make pragmatic decisions about dating. Nice work.
@J
In six hours I can write, learn, and record a lead or bass line for a new song.
Odds are that lead line will be around longer than any woman.
Excluding my first girl, Black Beauty (a Signet Special clarinet from 1978), out of fairness only one woman has been with me longer than all my instruments. and she bugged out. Two more have been around longer than my bass but not my flute or the guitar I gave away to some people in my FPU class to give their son a guitar for Christmas.
Given the respective level of commitment are you surprised I’d give you no more than a good session with one of them before really investing?
@Hope
Cosign post #60; have some issues with this:
Another tip; a woman should not say stuff in a hard, masculine fashion or give ultimatums like “Either stop contacting me or step it up.” The more a woman uses hard, sharp and demanding phrasing combined with stereotypical “bitchy” tones, the more men will dismiss her.
In Grace’s case, I think she was fine in giving an ultimatum. If the guy had been really interested in her, he’d have already taken her out. He was playing games with her, and she lost nothing by challenging him. She knew he wasn’t going to “step it up;” she just wanted him to know that she knew. While she may have “blown it” with him as a potential date, she at least put a stop to the workplace flirtation that was going nowhere.
@marie
I’d agree with the “grow into it” part since I can relate. Ugly ducklings grow up to marry swans.
One caveat is I interact with a lot of young girls, between 22 and 25. Maybe they’ll grow out of it. The slightly professional girls aren’t as into the casual thing but they act desperate around marriable men.
J 113:
It’s back to combat dating, the tug of war. It’s different now than it used to be. Under assortative mating the dynamic was more like a dance, in which he led and gave a little, and she followed and gave a little.
Feminism has turned what used to be a somewhat pleasant dance into a war of wits, will, and cunning. It’s all about who is going to make the first move, who will limit their risk the most. This is extremely important for a number of reasons for men.
1. The financial and social costs, nearly all of which is borne by men. Men bear nearly all the risk of rejection. They risk nuclear rejections and blowouts every time they approach. They bear most of the financial costs. They risk false rape accusations and sexual harassment claims, either of which can result in lost jobs, ruined careers, reputation destruction and even criminal prosecution.
2. She either is attracted sexually, or she is not. There is no in between. Sexual attraction is almost always instantaneous. Every woman I’ve had good sexual chemistry with, that chemistry is immediately apparent and it is palpable. Of course he is attracted. If he were not, he would not invite her to hang out or even talk to her. If she is attracted, she will make time and make herself available. If she is not attracted, she will balk or flake.
Thus, I don’t agree that the man should need to put out time for her so she can get to know him or make a reasonable decision about him. The attraction and “spark” is either there, or it is not there.
Is there going to be a – “Filtering advice for men” post?
Bet that will get more than a 1000 comments very quickly
Hope,
It is not just older men who wine and dine these days. The problem is that women/girls have lowered the bar for themselves, especially women of low SMV. The men on here can say they have a hard time paying for dates and what not, but if that was the way for them to get laid or relationship from a woman of any SMV they would gladly do it. The only reason men are getting away with this behavior is because most women have very low expectations for themselves. When a man meets a woman he really wants to bed or have long-term relationship with or whatever, and she demands he treats in a way that she deems suitable to get what he wants–he will either step up or move on. Most women are not doing that nowadays. But there are some women who demand good treatment and get it.
As Susan stated in her post, that most attractive women still have high expectations which is probably why they are often asked out and pursued by real players and cads (not red pill swallowers) they are the only men that are not afraid of being rejected by them. Although, many red pillers will claim that they are bedding hot/beautiful women. I really have hard time buying that.
As I said, authentic players and cads don’t play wait and see games. If they make an investment (only in beautiful women) and he does not get an immediate return on that investment–he moves on.
By the way, Brady, sounds like a red pill swallower.
Abbott,
I wrote:
“we have no such qualms about burdening men with providing for someone long after the relationship has ended.”
You revised it:
“we have no such qualms about burdening men with providing for someone shortly after she ends her multi-man sexual activity”
I think you and I agree, but if the state enforced penalties were not in place for men upon the breakup of marriage, then this would not be a big deal. Quite frankly, if you’re getting the benefits of the relationship, then you pay the price.
I perceive your issue to be the selection process for deciding commitment. If the penalties for commitment were less, then the selection process would not need to be as rigorous.
Absolutely, positively, no question about it Brady was/is a player. I also bet Grace was a little out of his league too, which is why he spent so long trying to “get with her”. Also, use of “get with her” is a huuuge red flag. Girls, if you’re unsure, when a guy says he “got with” a girl, it doesn’t mean he dated her, it means he f**ked her. Also, as Susan says, it’s completely a low-effort level of interest. Sending a text takes 30 seconds and no $$. Having seriously dated girls and also having kept them around as booty calls, I would never text a girl I was serious about dating after I was already out drinking, unless we’d already had a lot of time put in with sober, real activities. Too much of a chance to ruin it with an obvious booty call. The booty call girls get these late-night, low-effort texts because the guy generally doesn’t really care if the girl never texts him again.
I have a very good girl friend who was in Grace’s situation with a couple guys (in fact I almost wonder if this is her under a pseudonym), and I gave her the exact same advice Susan did. Not that I’d never do what Brady did (I do it somewhat often), but I wanted to give her the tools to identify it and avoid it.
On another note, to the girls, why do girls get so worked up and enticed by a guy just paying attention to them for a few weeks with texts?? I’ve known quite a few girls who convince themselves that this guy must really like them just because he takes 2 minutes out of his day to type some words into a phone. Hot girls get attention from men all the time, so why is this persistent attention so alluring to them? I’ve never slept with a girl I wasn’t into just because she texted me a lot. It seems to me like some girls (the hot ones) who shouldn’t really have a low threshold for “making them feel special” do have that low threshold.
@Liza
I totally agree. There’s a reason why women don’t comment here often.
Liza 122:
Agree with your comment here. But we also have to take into account that many women, even those who are beautiful, will give it up fast for the sexy alpha player or cad. Perhaps not all do, but most do.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I don’t know a single sexually active woman (including high status high SMV women) who has not had at least one cad pump and dump her, which she explains by saying “he was just so beautiful I couldn’t HELP myself!”
@Herb #105
You know Herb, yes I would do those things you described because I’ve learned what a great relationship is like by the example my father and slutty mother (modernguys discriptor) set for me. I am after all only 20 and just started to date so I haven’t gotten a chance to do those little acts of kindness. I started coming to this site and others because I had trouble figuring out why I wasn’t being asked out and wanted to figure out why (a bit to shy, too serious, and wicked sense of humor.) I’ve had my eyes opened and seems like I have a lot to learn.
@deti,
I’ll keep your list in mind, but what about competence? Wouldn’t you want a wife who would be competent? To me education proves how competent a woman can be.
J, work situations like that can be complicated and delicate. It’s why I would especially advise being cordial and pleasant in the interactions instead of using harsher phrasing.
I also know of a workplace flirtation that went on for a long, long time before the two became official and got married. Not saying that is optimal, but men are also less inclined to escalate quickly with work situations due to the sensitive nature of the situation.
Nothing happens in a vacuum, the way this story is presented.
Without hearing Bradys perspective on this encounter this is nothing more then speculation and circle-jerking.
Maybe Grace is omitting that she is reformed good-time girl or that Brady is the worlds most uncomfortable introvert. We really cannot really calculate or derive it.
The only useful conclusion we can draw from this story is that no conclusions can be made about the ‘filter’.
I would have titled this post ‘Much ado about nothing’
Chuck
@Marie
Guys (and by guys I mean me and others I know) loooove girls who got cute late. Much easier to hook up with than girls who’ve always been hot, because they either a) don’t really know they’re hot or b) are unused to getting a lot of attention and they love it.
@wantstoknow
First things first dove. Keep your personal life private. Your mom isn’t that and if you let a random guy on a blog make you really believe that, you have other work to do.
I would check out http://www.wwnh.wordpress.com
Who new that being shy, non – promiscuous, serious (which in lady terms mean not ditzy) and funny/witty would get you well…nothing.
” If the penalties for commitment were less, then the selection process would not need to be as rigorous.”
Same as landlords who screen tenants because once they have possession most local laws make it very difficult to remove them if they do not fulfill their obligations. IOW, the law is tenant friendly thus tenants have a hard time getting an apartment. It should be no easier for a woman to land a husband.
Sorry, not buying this method, and I think this Grace might be missing out on a good guy. This guy sounds like your typical, career oriented, decent looking beta who is interested in her but doesn’t know how to make things happen and progress the situation. Also, it sounds like this guy might be just out of college (as they met at a career orientation thingy) and has no experience in traditional dating, because that doesn’t happen in college. Blame the system, not the guy.
No player I have ever known has continually kept up interest and conversation for months on end, only looking for a fling. Yes, a player might have some prospects who get a ‘Hey, sup?’ text every month or two as a possible booty call, but not good night texts, how is your day texts, and come meet my friends texts. A guy with a true abundance mentality does not put in this much effort, as it just isn’t worth it. I know I wouldn’t.
It also sounds like Grace didn’t put in any effort on her part. What stopped her from saying ‘how about we go for a run?’ or ‘wanna go to this cool concert with me?’ Exactly, nothing. Answers to these questions would have given her all the info she needed, but she is reframing things to put the entire effort and responsibility on the male. Typical.
I doubt that Brady will contact her regardless of what his intent was. She’s told him that his effort is inadequate, despite making zero effort of her own. Going forward, every interaction would be awkward regardless of how he felt. FIDO.
The other problem here is that nearly all young guys seem to have come to the conclusion that wining and dining a woman with dates when you aren’t already sleeping with her gets you a one way ticket to the friendzone and being taken advantage of. They didn’t reach this conclusion in a vaccum, so, if women have created that impression, Grace is going to have a hard time enforcing a new set of rules.
Lastly, Grace doesn’t give us enough information here. How many guys has she slept with in the last few years? Of those guys, how many started off the relationship by wining and dining her with formal dates as opposed to guys she just “hung out” with? Did any guys start off with formal dating? If so, did she end up hot for them? If not, she has her answer.
The best way to uncover a man’s sexually history is to test him for STDs. More than 50% of men have HPV. Even if he is a player and he’s clean, at least he’s not sloppy, which is a sign of consideration. That is, he cares about his work.
That said, women hide their sexual history better than men. I think men require more assistance on filtering. Men are more likely to embrace their sexual identities–we don’t gossip, we brag. Women still hide from the fear of slut shaming, which only feeds the double standard. Imagine a topsy-turvy world where women bragged about being virgins and men gossiped about those who were still stuck in the single digits. I would congratulate women for having pride on the principle and I would chastise men for being such fearful, pathetic creatures.
Wants to know 127:
A woman’s educational attainment proves exactly nothing about her competence.
I have known female high school dropouts who could manage a home and a side business, raise six children, and handle more than half a home’s chores.
I have known female physicians who are complete morons when it comes to common sense and interpersonal relations.
Hey everyone -
I wrote this post this a.m. and then was traveling most of the day, so I’m chiming in late. There are lots of interesting comments already and several new commenters, which pleases me so much!
I’ll respond to individual comments as best I can, but let me just say that I am almost sure Brady is a player. Here are the signs, IMO:
1. OTC is right – he had a very smooth reply for the concern about dating someone from work.
2. “I want more” followed by a winky face has an overtly sexual implication that was inappropriate for the level of time the two had spent together (almost none).
3. In four months, he has never attempted to make plans ahead of time.
4. In suggesting they meet up, which is definitely one way that young people socialize, he never offered to come to where she was. He always suggested that she make her way to his location late at night.
5. The less enthusiasm she shows, the more he shows. He’s on a quest.
A couple of things about Grace:
She has no interest in having him pay for anything. She suggested meeting for dinner or going for a run. They both have jobs at the same company, most likely with similar salaries. They’re the same age. She does not expect to be wined and dined, but she finds it very suspicious that Brady has never sought her company alone before late night. She’d be delighted if he suggested a drink after work, or a walk in the city – any plan would be fine.
Texting someone spontaneously is always a risky plan. Odds are they’re busy at 11 on a Saturday night. If you really want to see someone, you’re not going to leave it to chance that way.
I think Brady is used to girls meeting him more than halfway. Grace describes him as quite handsome and self-assured. He’s only interested because she’s the rare girl who hasn’t fallen for his BS.
Liza, I agree with you that women should ask for what they want. I wanted a genuine emotional connection and find love, and that was much harder to find than a formal date. People have also told me that my expectations were too high (not kissing until mutual feelings of love), but I stuck to it and found my one.
Some people say I just “got lucky,” which I did to some extent. But I also helped create some of my own luck.
And I know I’m right now after re-reading the post. Sorry, but no non-interested guy would EVER confront a girl in that manner if he was just looking for a slam piece. He was clearly invested in some form and wanted more from her.
Sorry Grace, you probably blew it with that response.
@Abbott
Men shouldn’t filter but realize they’re privileged to get the princess who picked them.
“I think men require more assistance on filtering.”
It won’t be long before websites appear that do just that. ooooh, the spitting mad anger that some will throw at those sites…will be very amusing
@Abbott #132: That’s a good analogy, similar to workers rights, if you make it too hard to let workers go, employers will screen candidates very carefully, and overall employment drops.
A promiscuous woman is not a good bet in marriage, but when she can take your kids, your productivity and harass you with the power of the state, it makes Russian Roulette’s 1 in 6 chances look pretty good when you compare it to the divorce rate.
Thanks Kaikou, I’m off to read. You and the other ladie please keep the advice coming, I’ll be reading.
Hi Susan!
Maybe you can relay the answers to some of my questions from previous posts? Still haven’t got much answers, just something about popping pills.
@Marie
Exactly. The effort he expends should clearly indicate what he is interested in. If he is willing to consider a relationship should the right girl come along, then he loses a lot by treating a new interest in a way that dangerously resembles a booty call.
Women too often confuse length of effort (4 months) with degree of effort (4 on a scale of 1-10). If Brady had made the right kind of effort from the start, these two would have been a couple long ago. He knows that, which is why he didn’t do it, IMO.
Wants to know 127:
Deti is spot on.
I have met some competent women at work. I deal with some top notch people. I have never felt sexual attraction for competence, though I love to surround myself with those types of people. Competence, initiative and curiosity count as positive character traits in coworkers.
Not all men want to marry a coworker. Now that income is diluted with the two parent working family, we have had to accept some sacrifices, but men really want a wife, not a coworker. Yes, they share some of the same traits, but most likely, they are not the ones that will spur a man to commit to you.
For Christsakes Liza, I’m in the top 20% of income and that’s a ridiculous standard for me. Even if I could afford it, screw you. Any woman who needs a princess moment to start a relationship is going to be too expensive to keep for anyone.
——-
Herb,
This what I don’t like about red pillers is that they are always looking to/ready to misinterpret and twist whatever women say in order to start venting about how horrible women are. I know you have the reading and comprehension skills to know I was not referring to myself. Or maybe I was not making myself clear. But, to say “screw you” was totally uncalled for don’t you think?
If you’re a guy who usually does not go for very attractive women, then what I am saying may sound a little much. But yes, there are men like Clooney who have the means to do more wooing than most men. I also doubt those women are demanding these things from him, but he does it because he can, and wants to bed many women with high SMV.
“if you make it too hard to let workers go, employers will screen candidates very carefully, and overall employment drops.”
In this case, overall commitment.
This is where feminists and women in general got mud on their faces, as it were. They HATE to admit that their own demands have led to their own unhappiness. Poor babies…
@Beth
Welcome, thanks for commenting!
Exactly. Women cannot afford to give a man the benefit of the doubt. In an era of gender equality, women cannot expect men to demonstrate interest by spending money on them, in my opinion. That leaves just one option for sussing out a guy’s motives: his actions. Many women do indeed get burned several times – a rather costly error that can ratchet your number up rather quickly without your ever having actually gotten commitment from a guy.
@Liza
I bolded that part because you’re right but you totally blow it in the next sentence. You’re not wrong per se but you’re missing a key problem.
Most red-pill men have learned doing the bolded part is much more likely to land you in beta-orbit land than in having a girlfriend land.
Period.
End of conversation.
Women who demand dates, especially dates you pay for, in the current SMP are looking to cut their dining bill while improving where they eat. If you’re the rare woman who isn’t I’m sorry but you’re going to get swept up into that bucket.
@Wants to know
At your age you’re a rarity. Right now one out of three children live in a home without their bio-dad. The majority of US children will spend some time in a single parent home.
That tends to make men more alpha (ie, sexier) but women…well, it makes women less appealing (especially more likely to slut it up).
Most women who do the career girl first thing can’t really comprehend the things I listed are reasonable expectations.
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