Very attractive women get a lot of attention from cads and players. In a vestige of assortative mating among the beautiful people, the men most desired by women will at least occasionally try to supplement their “one and done” conquests with women of their own sexual market value. The highest value “target” is a super hot babe who isn’t promiscuous.
Everything else being equal, the better looking a woman is, the less likely she is to indulge in casual sex. Unlike her male counterpart, who finds himself deluged with offers for what he prizes most (sexual variety), the beautiful woman finds herself the loneliest girl at the ball. David Buss, in The Evolution of Desire, explains why the most attractive women are loath to sell themselves short in the relationship market:
Those who hold valuable resources do not give them away cheaply or unselectively. Evolution favored women who were highly selective about their mates. If a woman walked away from a casual encounter pregnant, she bore the costs of that decision for decades afterward. Today, the pill alters that cost. But sexual psychology evolved over millions of years. We still possess this underlying sexual psychology even though our environment has changed.
… Men’s low standards for [casual sex] reveal a precise strategy to gain access to a variety of partners.
According to Buss, the floor of male attraction for no-strings sex is characterized by the following female traits:
- A low sex drive
- Physical unattractiveness
- Need for commitment
- Hairiness
Bwahahahaha! I’ve known some women fitting 2-4 who bedded players. Beauty is just a lightswitch away!
Of course, everything else never is equal, and some women, including very good looking women, choose to play in the promiscuous pool. Genetic traits, family history, and self-esteem are all correlated to promiscuity in women.
By and large, though, the women with the highest sexual market value will demand commitment (of emotion or resources) in exchange for sex. Problematically, the men most likely to approach them are the men least willing to make the trade. If cads and players wore signs like marathoners wear numbers, filtering out these opportunists would be easy, if somewhat tedious. In a college environment, a woman can easily steer clear of cads, or make inquiries when necessary to get the scoop on a guy’s MO. After graduation this becomes considerably more difficult. Short of having her knees wired shut, what’s a good looking girl to do?
Of all the stories I hear from readers, I estimate that between one-third and one-half of them are from women who incorrectly judged a man’s character and got burned in the process. With assholes pretending to be good guys, and good guys pretending to be assholes, the lines have become very blurred. Still, women are the gatekeepers to sex, and it is always the female’s responsibility to adequately screen men for honest intent.
The tried and true method of delaying sex until you know “what it is we’re doing” is still your best bet. But a girl can waste a lot of time and get pretty attached to a guy during that period, only to find out he “wasn’t trying to turn this into anything.” This weekend a young woman shared her method for filtering out players and it’s probably the best one I’ve heard. She’s used it to great effect several times. Unfortunately, every single one of the guys has turned out to want nothing from her but sex, which sucks. She’d love for just one guy to make it through the filter. Of course, nothing is foolproof and a clever cad could sneak through, but she recognizes the enormous value of having a standard that cads are unlikely to meet.
“Be less interested or more interested.”
Grace met Brady in an orientation program at work. (They had just started working for the same company, but not the same department.) They hit it off, but she learned he was still with his college girlfriend, so she kept her distance. He didn’t act flirtatious or shady, so she figured he was a good guy. A couple of months after the program ended, he asked her out for coffee to catch up, and took the opportunity to mention that he had broken up with his girlfriend. As they walked back to work, he casually said, “We should hang out sometime.”
Brady began to text Grace just about every weekend. He was always wondering where she was and whether she wanted to come meet him. Since she was with her own friends, she declined the opportunity to hop in a cab and join him on the other side of town. At a Marathon Monday party held by a coworker, Brady was very attentive and when he walked Grace to her car, he told her how much he’d enjoyed seeing her outside the office and asked if he could kiss her.
Grace: “I don’t think that’s a good idea. Things could get awkward at work.”
Brady: “I don’t share your concern.”
Grace: (laughing) “Oh really? Why is that?”
Brady: “Because there are only two ways things could get awkward. One is if I tell anyone else our business, and the other is if I act like a dick. I have no intention of doing either.”
They kissed. That night Brady sent Grace a text: I want more 
Brady continued to text Grace frequently, always spontaneously. He usually initiated texting once he was already out, inviting her over. In some ways Grace felt singled out for attention by this handsome young man. He was motivated, in touch, consistent, and undeterred. He began checking in to see how her day was, say good night, etc. He invited her over for a glass of wine, and asked when he would get to see her apartment. In some ways, Grace felt that she’d gotten to know Brady pretty well, and he certainly had been making his interest clear over the past three months.
One night Brady confronted Grace (by text of course) about her unwillingness to take their relationship to the next step. He told her he was tired of putting in all the effort if she wasn’t going to give him a shot.
Grace: “You need to be less interested or more interested.”
Brady: “What does that mean?”
Grace: “Your effort is consistent but half-assed.”
Brady: “Half-assed? What the hell. Why would you even say that. I’ve been trying to get with you for months.”
Grace: “Exactly. You want to see me? Let’s meet for dinner one night at 7:00. Let’s go for a run. Don’t text me late night when you’re already out with your friends. Either stop contacting me completely or step up your game.”
This just happened, so I don’t know the outcome yet, but Grace feels certain she won’t be receiving any more attention from Brady. In fact, she thinks it’s entirely possible a lot of those texts were group texts.
Many women convince themselves that a consistent level of attention over a period of time means the guy’s intentions point toward a relationship instead of a hookup. In fact, months of low quality attention is worthless. You’d be better off without it. You’d benefit if he were less interested.
If he does want something real, he’ll step up and ask you out in a legit way, eager to demonstrate he’s not a player. He’d be more interested.
{ 808 comments… read them below or add one }
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Zach,
I think you got it all wrong. In the OP it says this about Brady…
“In some ways Grace felt singled out for attention by this handsome young man. He was motivated, in touch, consistent, and undeterred.”
He clearly was in her league, and as I stated before, players do not invest this much effort over MONTHS. No one female is worth that much effort to a real player. And real players do not get all butthurt when the girl doesn’t reciprocate effort, as Brady did.
“Many women do indeed get burned several times – a rather costly error that can ratchet your number up rather quickly without your ever having actually gotten commitment from a guy.”
So as feminists might say, don’t blame the prey…blame the predator?
@Liza
I am with you on the red pills. Agenda, agenda, agenda.
@Herb Why is your name herb, btw? I have thoughts, but would love to know.
@Kaikou
Welcome to you too!
I agree. Women with very high SMV are not the ones scheming about snagging a guy for a hookup. They’re also very big losers in this SMP, as their natural mates are otherwise occupied with women of more relaxed standards for sex. As such, they know that the men who would have happily “gone steady” with them in a bygone era are mostly players now. A beautiful woman has to have her bitch shield up every minute. Meanwhile, less dominant guys are unlikely to approach, so she doesn’t have a shot with them either unless she is willing to initiate, which you’ve noted is not generally the case.
Liza you are deluded when it comes to how men of high SMV operate and how women of high SMV can expect to be treated by them.
I am quite good looking and cool and alpha enough in a general sense that women 7-9 have always given me strong approach indicators and several have chased me. 4 of my 5 first sex partners started making out with me first and almost dragged me to bed and in one case flat out out asked me to be her fuckbuddy. They had to as I was clueless before learning about game about how to sexually escalate but attractive enough for them to do the work, which is quite rare. After game my options are even greater. Since my teens I have also always been in social groups that are filled with very good looking people and lots of alphas. I have also been in a very wide variety of social groups including the upper class/upper middle class people I grew up with, drug dealers, rappers and graffiti writers from the poorest neighborhoods in my city that I got to know in my teens, people from all sorts of social backgrounds in one big mix at university, a very intelectual subculture of journalists, freelance writers, PHD students, novelists etc. and the subculture of people actively involved in political youth parties and NGOs, and I have also gone out to bars and clubs a huge amount and know those scenes very well. In all those settings I have been friends with, dated or been friendly with the highest SMV women that was there and been friends with or known men of the highest SMV in those social groups. So when I disagree completely with your views it is not as you say because I lack knowledge of how the world works for the highest SMV men and women, at least where I live.
The standard dating I have come a cross, or heard of, has always been to go have a beer or a few drinks or go to have coffe. Going out to eat has always primarily been something people step up to once they have gone out a bit in other ways already and often have already have had sex. IME women 8-10 very rarely get any sort of fancy dating or any sort of official comittment before sex. These women date alphas and sometimes very good looking and very successfull betas and those guys have an extreme amount of options. In order to compete for them you can rarely hold out for too long or expect much traditional dating. The classic dinner dates these women get are mostly with men of somehwat lower SMV who end up as orbiters.
The thing I think you don`t understand is that because of hypergamy the highest SMV in any sexual market is always held by the top men. The top men can choose between different tens. THey are not 10s they are 11s. All over the world at all times some form of polygamy either formaly as in several wives, informaly as in mistresses in addition to the wives or as soft rotating harems as is so normal today has always been the norm precisely because the top men have greater options than the top women. For a couple of the naturals I know professional models are totally fungible, its not a question of getting a 10 it is which one you choose.
The problem with offering a lot of effort and classical dinner dates where the man pays etc. is that women intuitively know that the most sought after men don`t have to do that at all. So when you do offer it, on some level it is a DHV. Women keep claiming that the more comittment signs you offer (and that is what it is) the better it is and you win points that way. However, since supply and demand predicts that the men won`t normally do that unless they have to it becomes a sign of lack of options. That is exactly what happened to the poster Jason when he tried to ask women on regular dates in stead of going through the murky hookup landscape as he usually would. In fact you describe part of how this is a DHV yourself in your post when you say that the highest SMV men offer this to the highest SMV women because they know they have to. By this you are saying these men have to chase these women and that the women are the prize. However, if you flip the script and force her to play by your rules in order to get you, you put yourself up as the prize and the one that has to be chased. This is a basic game principle and all my natural friends follow it at as well, either intuitively or because they understand the principle. So even if a woman really, really wants traditional dating and so can think she of course would “reward” a man willing to do it with attraction it will be very hard to shake the suboncious suspicion that it signals suplication, putting her on a pedestall and lack of preselction.
In fact the people I encounter that actually do a lot of dinner dates from day one are the below average women and the betas who date them. They seem to rarely if ever have casual sex and are virtually the only people I meet who wait for a long time untill they have sex. I think that is because the lower ranked men sell committment rather than attraction and the lower ranked females intuitively know they have to sell chastity as they don`t have much good looks to sell.
As for alphas mostly slumming it and only occasionaly hooking up with women of similar sex rank that is utter bullshit. I have gone out a lot to bars and clubs over the years and if you look at the people who hook up and geta cab at the end of the night the disparity isen`t normally very high. Sure you have a 9 with 5 sometimes but in general it is more like a 9 with a 7-9 and sometimes a six, or a 7 with a 6 or 7 sometimes a 5 and maybe a few rare times a 4. Generally what you will see in clubs is good looking people hooking up with good looking people and not so good looking people hooking up with not so good looking people. I see this almost every weekend.
@Liza
I can read. I can interpolate.
But in reading what you described to women in my range reads like this:
1. Ballet tickets
2. Flowers when you pick her up
3. Dinner at a moderately ($50/2) expensive restaurant
for a first date. Add it up, that’s easily $100 spent on her (I would have gone to the ballet and probably dinner without her).
I’ve done that and got told: it’s not a date, just friends going out.
Now days you want my second ticket for the ballet you better have put some skin the game. Damn things are expensive (and you would think a man enthusiastic, not just willing, to go to the ballet is what a ton of women want but clearly it’s more fun to force an unwilling guy to go).
As for the screw you, it was a generic answer to that attitude. It’s the deserved answer to that attitude. Red pill men were women’s time and money pools long enough to be mad about princessing.
@Kaikou
Because my dad named me after him. Nothing exciting.
@Vae Victus
That’s fine, I think Grace would be happy to hang out. They could fly a kite, or walk the dog, or go to a party together. They could plan at 8 pm to definitely meet up at a certain place later with their respective friend groups. People do it all the time.
Grace and Brady were already attracted to one another. She gave him considerable encouragement when he suggested hanging out. He then proceeded to text her at the last minute on several occasions. She found it a very clear indication that he was looking for a hookup, which she was not interested in. I think she is surprised that he has been so tenacious.
Oh and Kaikou
In my experience most women saying that will be getting a call from a Mr. Kettle on line 2.
75% of what’s wrong in the current SMP is the result of the agenda of women and men’s completely predictable reaction to it.
Some people say I just “got lucky,” which I did to some extent. But I also helped create some of my own luck.
Hope,
That is it. You created you’re own luck by setting up boundaries and having standards and expectations. Good for you!
But the insane thing is that if red pillers come across a woman like you they will interpret your behavior as non interest in them. But they claim that they know how quality a woman behaves. Oh, really?
@Susan
I honestly don’t have much problem with your interpretation of events.
My question is, if Grace was attracted why didn’t she try to initiate a “date” (be it a formal 50′s style date or just a hang out date) earlier. If she’s filtering she saves time. If it succeeds she saves time.
What’s her downside?
Susan,
I still don’t think Brady is a player, but even if he is, all Grace had to do is ask him on a run or a walk or something, prior to the confrontation, and she would have had her answer.
“But we also have to take into account that many women, even those who are beautiful, will give it up fast for the sexy alpha player or cad. Perhaps not all do, but most do. ”
Really? “Most” women give it up fast for the cad? Really?
Surprised Susan let that slide.
@modernguy
Grace is not a virgin, nor is she promiscuous. She has certainly never had multiple (or even 2!) simultaneous partners, which is the very definition of promiscuity.
How has she demanded that mystery be removed from the process? Is there nothing between a supplicating guy begging a girl for a date and a manwhore texting her for sex as the bar closes?
The more that guys believe that all women want players, the more they’ll pursue that strategy. If Brady is pretending to be a player to get Grace tingling, it’s majorly backfired. She thinks he’s a douche. Whether he will take time to evaluate and understand his results is unknown.
@Liza
Actually, scroll back, I specifically claimed the opposite and you’re moving the goal posts.
You claimed with don’t know what traits good women have. I said we do, but they don’t display them much, some even trying to have a slut image (why is beyond me…female herd acceptance maybe?) while we have plenty of sluts in reformed virgin clothing.
I know what they have but I’ll be damned if we can spot them. A huge reason is the pushback against judging women based on their behavior (often signed on to by good women even though it’s against their interests).
@Deti
LOL. As you may know, music is a big DHV to me as DH and both sons are musicians. (#2 son has a wedding gig coming up, and he’s still in high school! Forgive me, but I had to brag.) Nonetheless, I didn’t just hop into bed with DH, despite being fairly sure by the end of our first date that he was going to marry me. I completely understand your point regarding not wanting to invest a lot in someone who may be playing you, Deti, but I still don’t see the incentive for a woman to jump into bed with a guy who isn’t willing to invest more than a few hours of his time. In essence, you are asking a woman to allow herself to be played.
@Wants to know
Welcome, and stick around. I give lots of warnings here!
@Herb is short for Herbert?
The comments on here are way too brutal for people who “get it”.
@Jason
The only thing that you need to know here is that he only texted her after 11 while out drinking, and NEVER SAW HER OTHERWISE. Honestly you could tell me a million other things, and they wouldn’t matter. That says it all. He made absolutely no effort to make sure he’d see her. Believe me, this is coming from a guy who booty-call texts plenty. I know what it looks like, and this is it. If I’m really into a girl in a serious way, I’d make plans with her earlier in the day to meet up that night at a specific place at a specific time, in large part to avoid the impression of a booty call.
Also, on wining and dining, I think it gets too harsh of a rap. Yes, women can use it to take advantage of men. Yes, some women view it as a sign of weakness. However, if you can afford it, it’s not a bad strategy to expand your dating/hooking up pool. I can afford to drop $150 on 2 dates with a girl every couple weeks without it being a big deal to my financial well-being. Wining and dining expands your pool from girls who will go home with you from a bar to girls who will f*ck you after a couple dates. A couple not too expensive dates for sex? Fair trade in my book. And as a guy with some experience with women, it’s pretty easy to tell on date 1 if it’s going nowhere. If you’re unsure, do a super cheap date next time (shake shack, $10). There are a lot of girls, especially high SMV ones, who won’t go home from a bar with a guy, and won’t “hang out” with him unless it’s in a date setting. It’s not necessarily that they’re looking to use him, it’s often for the same reasons Grace and Susan outlined. And who knows, on some of these dates you might find out she’s awesome and worth more of your time.
@Susan
Yes, women extremely often conflate length of effort with level of effort. I’ve never understood why. Taking 2 minutes every other day to send a text is not even effort in my book.
Liza: “The men on here can say they have a hard time paying for dates and what not, but if that was the way for them to get laid or relationship from a woman of any SMV they would gladly do it. The only reason men are getting away with this behavior is because most women have very low expectations for themselves.”
Herb: “I bolded that part because you’re right but you totally blow it in the next sentence. You’re not wrong per se but you’re missing a key problem.
“Most red-pill men have learned doing the bolded part is much more likely to land you in beta-orbit land than in having a girlfriend land.”
Herb, Liza is actually correct that if men had to wine and dine HB 4s and 5s to get sex, they’d do it. In fact it used to be that way. It was called “courtship” and “assortative mating”. It actually worked quite well because women were under pressure to choose a husband early because they knew they had a limited time window to do so, and the women who wanted a husband (i.e. more than 90% of all women) chose one.
But the answer now is simpler than women just want to improve where they eat and cut their dining bills. It is simply that most women have to prove they are worth it before that level of investment is laid out. And most simply are not worth it, or won’t hang around long enough to prove themselves, or believe they don’t have to prove themselves.
Moreover, the women Liza is talking about are women who would not even consider dating any man below a sex rank of 9 and a six figure income.
@Herb who is Mr. Kettle?
Liza, well the funny thing is, red pill guys are easier for me to talk to because I can show my red pill knowledge. My husband is a red pill guy who came into contact with Game a few years before I did. When I became interested in him, I showed that interest clearly.
Believe it or not, a girl with red pill knowledge and who has changed herself for the better with that knowledge is a huge catch. I showed my husband that he wouldn’t have to worry about divorce theft, alimony, cuckoldry, sexless marriage or chronic bitchiness. That put me in the running for the Mrs. role immediately.
Red pill guys are great if you don’t set yourself up to be their enemy.
Richard Aubrey:
“They were 9/10, or at least, say, 7/8 with huge chests. When they got to college, they decided to pull it back. No makeup, pony tails, floppy sweatshirts.
Or, in other situations, the “aura”.
Whatever it took to get through the day.”
——–
> Another way to cut back on approaches is to decrease IOIs (smiles, extended eye contact, intimate conversation, touching, giggling ). You act polite but “professional” and you get fewer approaches, you limit the IOIs only for guys you’re interested in.
When you spot a cad you completely cut him off and he’ll usually back off, if he doesn’t- then that’s when you must be assertive about it and stick to your guns.
__________________________________________________
BroHamlet:
“So yeah, I’m curious what your honest interpretation is of Grace’s personality because that’s equally important to any strategy she is employing.”
————
>Yes.
Also, when you don’t cut bad behavior off right from the start, even a good guy will mistake you for the casual type.
__________________________________________________
deti:
A high quality woman would not in the first place respond to all the sexual interest she received. She has very good filters in place and has finely tuned attraction triggers.
———–
> This is true if what you mean is that she puts the brakes on the escalation- not that a woman can’t respond positively to the “sexual interest”- as in- she lets him know that she’s interested but she’s not quite ready.
@whowantstoknow
See you over at Sir Guy’s Place.
It’s sunny there.
@Private Man
Isn’t that what dating is for? To explore the value and compatibility of a potential mate? We know that the minute Brady was back on the market he called Grace for coffee. There was strong attraction. His next communication was a late night text “inviting” her to grab a cab and meet him out at a bar. I believe she immediately suspected that Brady’s wants and desires were strictly of the short-term carnal variety.
Until Brady knows more about Grace’s personality, he should treat her with the civility and respect we afford every other human being in social relationships. He is not required to court her or spend money on her, and she is certainly not required to hightail it to wherever he is, a clear signal that she is DTF.
He was the demanding and flakey one, not her. Her final ultimatum to him was not a shit test, by the way. A shit test is a test that the woman wants the man to fail – in order to show her that he isn’t pussy whipped. I can assure you that this guy’s “failing” the test by continuing to contact her without asking her out is going to get him nowhere. He passes the test only by leaving her alone completely or stepping up. She’s clearly prepared for either eventuality.
@Herb
Agree with you to some extent on the ballet/dinner (also, where are you finding moderately expensive dinners for $25 a person??), but I also am fine doing dates where I pay because we do activities I want to do. I’m a big fan of high-end cocktail bars (little branch, raines law room, death & co, etc), but it’s not too often me and the guys will go somewhere like that. We’ll usually just grab some beers at happy hour. So for me, I’m fine paying for a couple drinks for her while if it means I have someone to go to the bar with me for a couple hours. Or restaurants. I love trying new and interesting restaurants, and though I have some friends who do as well, they’re not always free/up for it. So I spend a little extra money (most girls don’t eat a ton) and I get to go to a restaurant I’ve been dying to go to.
@Herb
“Women who demand dates, especially dates you pay for, in the current SMP are looking to cut their dining bill while improving where they eat”
As a twist on what Susan said, is there nothing inbetween this and texts at 11 p.m. ? Why can’t a date be meeting for coffee, a walk in the park, a drink after work or anyplace that doesn’t cost much but where a man and woman can talk quietly for an hour or two. It involves a some time but not a lot of money.
Texting takes very little effort. Teens easily send a hundred texts a day., there’re no big deal. I don’t see how the men here can think that another man’s texting a woman for four months, suggesting she come across town late at night to meet him, and walking her to her car after a party shows that he has any more interest in her than booty call.
Most red-pill men have learned doing the bolded part is much more likely to land you in beta-orbit land than in having a girlfriend land.
—–
Herb,
Yes, you will be seen as that if you are playing the “nice guy” card and not letting her know you are interested in her sexually. This is the problem, not that you bought her dinner.
——
I often turn down players/cads for dates because they are usually expecting sex in return. This should be no surprise.
@Maggie I asked that question several times. I heard the sweet sound of silence.
Susan,
I think Grace did OK, but really she let it go too far.
Unless there are some details missing, I think she kissed him too early. I’m not going to kiss some guy just because he walked me to the car, I’d be kissing every doorman and cab driver at the airport, ha ha. They weren’t even “seeing” each other then, right?
And I would have clarified the “wine and invitation to my apt.” with a “Oh, I apologize for giving you the wrong vibes about me.”
But that’s just me (shrugs)
@deti
The trade has never been sex for courtship. The trade is sex for commitment. Courtship is just shopping. A woman who has sex (and the accompanying risk of pregnancy and disease) as the payment for a meal at Applebee’s is batshit insane.
So pushing for sex before the first date is tight Game? How does a man qualify a woman for investment by doing this for months without attempting to spend non-sexual time with her?
Grace is (or was) interested in Brady. Truly, really interested in getting to know him. She felt great anticipation about his initial expression of interest. She doesn’t need his money, doesn’t need any man to buy her a meal or a drink.
Grace is not interested in seeing Brady’s penis before she knows what kind of man he is. She is attracted to him, but has no good sense of his character, intentions, or LTR fitness.
Grace is doing everything exactly as she should. She’s a beautiful girl with a very low number based on two serious past relationships. Rapid sexual escalation with a woman of very high SMV (and MMV) is a losing strategy. Of course, if Brady is only looking for sex, there’s little cost to him in her rejection. If he wanted a relationship, though, he blew it.
Not really…
That’s what I meant by fun casual/hang-out date.
For a woman, attraction is sexual interest, but the outcome is very uncertain. The man must be qualified before the sexual interest can safely be expressed. A woman who is clearly interested in a man, including sexually, will respond positively to flirtation, contact, conversation, and invitations to spend time together. If a woman is sending those signals, and kisses you eagerly early in the relationship, you should assume she is sexually attracted and will express those feelings when it is safe to do so.
I think that the young man in question is just continuing the mating dance that he learned in college, where casual, non-intimidating text-based meet-ups are the norm and more chivalrous and expensive dinner-and-Gilbert & Sullivan-style courtships are not possible on typical undergraduate student budgets.
This format appears to continue throughout a person’s twenties and it will probably become even more entrenched now that young women are doing so well in terms of education and professional achievements during this period. I do think that the traditional wining-and-dining experiences come back when older, single, relatively affluent men are operating in the dating scene; if nothing else, it can be a way to signal success and compensate for fading looks and physique.
Re: cad filtering. I agree with several posters that the most fair system would have low-investment, conversation-rich daytime meetings (coffeehouse, perhaps wine bar) be the norm for the first several meetings. The man is not being asked to commit much in the way of money or sexual opportunity costs, since his evenings remain free; the woman is not being asked to commit in the way of giving sexual access, since these dates take place during the day and (usually) have well-defined endings.
I don’t know how long this process should take; it would appear to need to go on for enough time for the man to have enough information to decide if he wants to date the woman exclusively and for the woman to decide if she wants to sleep with the man. I would think that, after a few meetings like this, a woman would want to know the basic outline of the guy’s background and major interests, determine if he is generally positive or negative to be around, see how he treats other people (i.e., waitstaff) and talks about people who are not present, and be able to accurately place the guy on, say, Fisher’s taxonomy of dating personality types. This can probably be done through open-ended, indirect field interview questions embedded within the normal flow of conversation (i.e., not an interrogation), but that could be the subject of another thread.
This system definitely draws a stark distinction between casual coffee dates and romantic evenings: at the point of a formal evening date (which may involved going out to dinner or may involve one person doing the cooking), sexual release for at least the man—one way or another—will be the highly probable conclusion. I think that the more formal and traditional evening dates have become much more symbolic and serious. One major casualty of the modern SMP/feminism is the woman who formerly enjoyed being wined and dined by a slew of breathless, sex-starved prospects; most guys now see that as a sucker’s game, with the exceptions being the desperate, the true gentlemen who have been living in a bubble and happily insulated from the harsh edges of modern combat dating, and some well-heeled players who essentially just write these things off as business expenses and act this way to demoralize other men, confirm deeply-held beliefs of misogynistic prostitute archetypes, or to deliberately further the moral decay of the SMP (the same type will also “transactionalize” his relationships and frequent escort services and strip joints, however, so pick your poison here—see the aforementioned George Clooney and his antics at Scores, Playboy Mansion, etc).
@Kaikou
Of course not! That’s the Catch 22 for women. Put out early or I’ll know you’re not interested. And when you’ve done that, I’ll toss you right into the slut box.
@Hope
Hope, most guys are not turned on nearly as much by non-physical stuff as by the alternative. This much is very obvious about us. I think you are projecting a woman’s mindset (or probably more accurately your own mindset) about sex onto men. We’re not the same as you are. And the flipside of that coin is that a woman who’s actually attracted to you wants to have actual sex at some point sooner than later, not just talk about it on the phone, haha.
To break down what you said:
1) The plan is to engage in some mental stimulation over the phone
2) If a guy is not interested in that, he’s not invested in me and not attracted if he doesn’t get much out of hearing me talk dirty while I’m miles away
I just don’t see this working out for most people.
The heart of this problem in today’s SMP is that almost nobody gets what they want. The only people it seems that are ‘winning’ are high status men and even then at what cost.
As illustrated in this article, even the alpha males don’t get the best thing for themselves, the 9 or 10 woman. They go for the quick easy fix, the variety of women rated 5 – 8. What is good for you in the long run is mostly the exact opposite of what people do. Instant gratification usually is a bad idea.
You could argue that’s what a man given to his desires wants more than anything though i.e Tiger Woods. His wife was a world class beauty and his women were to put kindly not quite supermodels. However, this also could be what the alpha ultimately desires, the uber-hot ‘alpha’ female and the concubines on the side just like ancient kings.
Where does this leave the alpha females though? They don’t want to settle. They want someone of equal worth. They are crying about this as much as the lower status men.
The middling females are maginally happy because they get to experience the alpha male even through it is fleeting which they will never admit.
The ultimate losers are the guys that 7 or below. Little beta males put in their places by the alpha males and their SMV women peers that live in delusional land where they are a solid 9 to themselves but being played like a fiddle by the alphas.
My whole take on how to fix this thing is this:
Men have to step up. It’s our job to fight the good fight. In the end, it’s us betas that letting this happen.
Let me explain:
If you are male 6, I think it’s quite possible you’re not acting like a true 6. You are been beat down by the competition (alpha 8-10) that have a vested intrest in ensuring no one takes away their livestock and the females that desperately want to be alpha females and live in fantasy world. The typical male 6, acts in this day in age like a male 2.
It accepts the lie that he isn’t good enough and doesn’t really adapt to the market to gain success. He is not meeting his full 6 potential in the least. I think a huge part of this is again the alpha using their domaniance to bully, through physical and mental means. These tactics crush the the betas and they whimper to their corner.
My thoughts are what must be done is for the betas to almost always stand up to their alpha peers.
The alpha will make fun or verbally assault, the solution: DON’T GIVE A FUCK and make this be known, never concede ground, make them earn every single inch.
The alpha will intimate physically. If circumstances are dangerous then don’t care about pride and get out of it i.e City streets or unknown elements. However, in college, this is mostly hot air. These are rich kids, they don’t want to go to jail. Play the game, threathen police and legal action. They will try to shame manhood but you’re in it to win it. Don’t give in.
What does this do for you in the dating world. The coward has confidence now from not being a wet blanket and the women can smell that a mile away. Suddenly you don’t seem like such a pussy. The women of equal SMV might think well this beta doesn’t seem so bad now.
I really do think that for a lot middle market value women, what they want in the end is a middle market value man that acts like a man. I think that’s what ‘Game’ teaches. It teaches things that 100 years ago was taken for granted. It doesn’t turn 6s into 10s, that’s just overhyping the product so they can sell you something. It turns 6s into 6s.
Zach,
From what you’ve written, I think we are very similar. Yea, he texted her at night a bunch, but it sounds like he is just out of college and that’s all he knows. Dating is dead, I’ve tried it and it either doesn’t work or it exchanges resources for sex, which I’m not interested in. You don’t have a problem with that which is fine, but not the route that I want to go anymore.
Seriously though, what kind of player spends 4 months trying to get in some girls pants and then fires off a whiny text when he doesn’t get his way? None that I know, it just doesn’t fit.
@Zach
The Middle East in Cambridge circa 2001 although my memory on cost could be off.
It came complete with belly dancing. Great restaurant that everyone in greater Boston should give a try.
@Liza
If having asked advice of a closed mailing list you’re both on that was “I’m getting ballet seasons tickets and I’m seriously considering buying two to take women I’m interested in on dates…good idea?” and then a week later asking her to go to the season opener didn’t suffice to communicate sexual interest why am I supposed to say, “oh, btw, I’m asking you because I’m hoping to eventually fuck you”?
@Maggie
I don’t disagree. However, the discussion had clearly separated “date” dates from hang-out dates. I even indicated that a woman indicating she’s willing to cover the cost increased the willingness to take the risk.
However, a generic demand for a date is going to set off a lot of alarm bells for a lot of men.
I also indicated that texts had to be a conversation not on the phone for a reason (such as being at work and not wanting ears listening).
I never said it wasn’t. Read my posts. I suggested she ask him out much earlier instead of waiting four months for the ultimatum. She let him piss away her time by not taking the initiative OR she passed up a decent guy who is waiting for a stronger signal (although I doubt that here, but change a few details and it might be reasonable).
Hell, I didn’t text until a couple of women started texting me.
@Alias
Agree on one, not on two. Two was okay but if he didn’t follow up with something like “come watch Girls at my place this Sunday and I’ll buy a pizza” (or the all time best version: movie and Chinese a la My Favorite Year for those who have seen it) within a week or two just ask him to come and watch the NHL playoffs with you this Thursday and see if he took the bait. In and out in a month, not four.
An early kiss is fine but it needs early follow-up.
@Kaikou
Yes, it is short for Herbert and Mr. Kettle
@Jon see my comments at 42, 60, and 62 when you have time.
Exactly! That’s exactly how this has gone down! And Cupcake has said, “Fuck off and leave me alone or get legit.” In the end, she has the last word because she is the least interested.
One of my favorite stories along these lines is the first meeting between Russell Brand and Katy Perry. He pushed hard for sex the first night, of course. (I think his N is around 2,000.) She balked and he pushed harder. She screamed, “You’ve met your match, motherfucker!” while throwing a bottle at his head. He claims that’s when he fell in love with her. Obviously, that didn’t ultimately work out too well…
@modernguy
I totally respect your preference for a virgin bride. However, it’s so rare in this SMP, as are the women who qualify, that advice along those lines has little utility.
@ Zach
I think most men will agree if you ask them “would you prefer a woman who’s good-looking but doesn’t know it?”. But it’s not that simple.
I was shy and a nerd all the way through school. I started caring about my looks around 13, but I didn’t put in the right kind of effort. I’ve always been slim, blonde and ‘cute’, but I was not up for any kind of fun and my appeal was ‘killed’ by my nerdiness. I put the right effort in at 20, around 2 years ago, but I am still working on getting it right.
I envy girls who have been ‘babes’ all along, they are used to interacting with guys and have better social skills. I’m quick to write off girls who play up sex a lot as ‘tacky’ but I still envy women who have years of experience with their beauty regimes.
My sister was in the exact same position, she got no attention through school and later became ‘the babe’. She discovered her potential late, and is still sleeping around now in her late twenties (with a number of 40+). The only reason that didn’t happen to me is probably that I learned from her mistakes. Girls who ‘blossom’ can go one way or another. But a lot of them are single in their 30s, from what I see.
@Ferret123
Yep, because we need to do more to compensate for our female SMV value peers fantasy land.
Or we could follow your other advice
If you’re not getting one without working even harder to make up for people in fantasy land then don’t give one.
Sex isn’t a life or death item. A girl may be more fun than my hand but if that’s all a girl is going to offer and then only after I gather the sun, the moon, and the stars life has more to offer.
Then they can start being middle market value women instead of princesses demanding they deserve to be treated high value.
They can start by communicating interest which leads me to
@Susan
How did she communicate that to him? Remember, I think you’re reading is more or less right, but how did she communicate to him she wanted to escalate prior to the 4 month ultimatum.
She might have done right but she could have done better and saved herself time.
Susan #187
Exactly and that’s why I said @Deti is a teeter tot. Clearly we all know the answer.
@BroHam
I totally agree with you at #188 until you do exactly what you say Hope is doing…projecting
@ Ferret123
I’m curious, are you talking about women rated 1-10 solely based on looks, or ‘the package’?
And would you say Elin Nordegren is a 10?
Who knew ferrets were faster than turtles and hares (see #189)?
@Herb
The second part of my post was not for you. Sorry I didn’t make that clear.
“A huge reason is the pushback against judging women based on their behavior”
1judge verb \ˈjəj\
judgedjudg·ing
Definition of JUDGE
transitive verb
1: to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises
Prior and current behavior [actions] is all there is to form an opinion. Then, are we not to do that whatsoever? Who exactly is advocating such preposterousness? Why?
Herb:
“An early kiss is fine but it needs early follow-up.”
———
> One word— Context.
An early kiss is fine if their meetings were deliberate- NOT when they just *happen* to meet at a company party or other place.
See?
They weren’t even “hanging out: together but just happened to bump into each other. That makes a difference for me.
BroHamlet, no projection on my part. I’ve known plenty of relationships to start out this way, not just mine. You might be the exception in this. Men who are in love are very romantic, and they can and do fall in love before actual physical sex.
Studies show that men are more romantic than women:
http://www.bakadesuyo.com/who-is-more-romantic-men-or-women
And that men are happier when the confession of love happens before sex:
http://www.bakadesuyo.com/when-does-i-love-you-mean-the-most-to-men-and
So basically, it’s a win-win for the couple to fall in love, confess they love each other, and have emotionally/psychologically stimulating sexy conversations before the actual act of sex.
My husband and I both fondly remember that initial period of our romance. It’s not just me.
susan 183:
The post I wrote that you responded to was a generic description of what men do to qualify women. It really didn’t have a lot of application to Brady and Grace. I agree you don’t text a woman for months and then booty text her. That’s not going to work. What I am saying is that men’s response to the current SMP is to make women qualify themselves through two primary means: push for early sex, and limit the time and money outlay. And from what I read around these parts, for most men, these actually seem to work if the objective is to find out which women really are interested.
@Cooper
Yes, he may. Women literally cannot be too careful, and men should understand and respect that. Do you recall the recent thread about Jane and Tom? Several men said they didn’t care that Tom had deceived Jane, that the solution is very simple. “Don’t open your legs, sweetheart.”
In my view, Grace is doing everything she should be doing to keep her legs together while determining the intentions of Brady. Brady’s intentions are far from clear, and lean heavily toward the casual end of the spectrum.
If Grace accepted one of Brady’s text invites, hopped in a cab at 12:30 a.m. and went across town to a bar where he is with three guys she doesn’t know, how might that work? Is that a good opportunity for Grace and Brady to get to know one another? Conservatively, they’ve probably each had three drinks by then, and they’re not alone – it’s Grace and four guys. After an hour, the bar will close. Brady lives nearby, so naturally he suggests they continue talking there – after all, she just arrived! Or Grace can opt to hail another cab, and go back to her own side of town.
If Grace goes to Brady’s apartment at 2 a.m., she has nothing to gain, and a lot to lose. Brady has nothing to lose, and a lot to gain.
If Grace goes home to her own apartment (or doesn’t meet Brady in the first place), she has nothing to gain, and little to lose. Brady has a lot to lose if he wants no-strings sex, and a lot to gain if he wants to date her.
What is the best course of action for Grace?
In Grace’s view, the good guy wouldn’t have pursued her this way, and would not have required an ultimatum. The only reason she even gave Brady an option to up his game was on the off chance he is a good guy. In which case, he should stop being an Impostor Asshole and ask her out because she really is attracted.
I think that if Brady is a good guy who genuinely is interested in more than sex with Grace, he will say to himself, “OK, she thinks you’re just trying to get into her pants, you’ve made her suspicious. She needs some reassurance that this is the real deal. It’s time for comfort moves, not dominance moves.”
@Herb
You lost me with the Kettle…why is he calling?
Also are you and Deti brothers?
@Susan
The Katy Perry story is funny.
Herb
Adding on to # 203
The difference between kissing a guy who makes an effort to specifically meet up with you and kissing a guy you just happen to bump into is – meaningful vs. casual hookup.
Casual hookup= no intention/knowledge that they’ll ever be a followup.
@Herb
‘
DON’T GIVE A FUCK
If you’re not getting one without working even harder to make up for people in fantasy land then don’t give one.
Sex isn’t a life or death item. A girl may be more fun than my hand but if that’s all a girl is going to offer and then only after I gather the sun, the moon, and the stars life has more to offer.
‘
I was trying to say Don’t Care to alpha MALES. My point was that beta 6s act like beta 2s because we let alpha males bully us directly or indirectly. We don’t offer up competition when they challenge us.
I think that some guys have a defeatist mentality by being dominated and they don’t offer resistance. Look you don’t have to win battles, you just have to make it so diffcult that’s it’s not worth it to fight you.
Our goal is to make the alpha have a pyrrhic victory. Even when you compete and lose, you get a self esteem boost just knowing you fought.
As for the over inflated value of young women, I acutally not trying to prop them up at all. I’m kind of insulting them saying they are too dumb to know what the hell is going on in the SMP and that’s it our job to adapt and win. As with any market, you have to play by market conditions. If competion is fierce get innovative and get fiercer.
Women don’t know what they want. When the male 6 says to hell with all of this I’m going to take on all comers and win. The female 5 and 4 on a subminal level take note of this and will allow them to be taken in to their alpha.
@Alias
Yeah, I see your point although it’s kind of an agree to disagree.
I’m not going to throw women in the slut box for kissing (I thought that was a silly discussion). On the whole I’m not in the N focused realm like some red-pill guys. I’m more open to context and change of character. Yes, I know what the research says but having married an N=1 (with me being the 1) and having her cheat and then leave me I think N is an imperfect correlate to real sluttiness without some context. 21 and 21 you’re a slut…ten years later at 31 and still 21 because #1 was a LTR until 26 and you’ve kept your legs shut since because you got a clue, we can talk…no promises but we can talk (Abbott is probably sticking pins in a doll of me at that one).
I’m much more wary of princesses than sluts. In fact the biggest tell of a “reformed” slut as opposed to “learned about life and got better at it” slut is the former will princess it up thinking she deserves to be treated like she has a magic vagina while the later is willing to meet you half way because she has actually learned about life and is better at it.
“men are happier when the confession of love happens before sex”
oh yes, and that is how it mainly goes down in other countries especially, way south. Women there are gate rulers and men know that its worth the wait because ALL men have to wait. Its MUCH easier to fall in love there as well since the women are very gentle and kind.
ugh
edit # 208
they’ll= there will
“… and then a week later asking her to go to the season opener didn’t suffice to communicate sexual interest why am I supposed to say, “oh, btw, I’m asking you because I’m hoping to eventually fuck you”?”
—–
Herb, are you telling me that you do not know how to send out subtle sexual interest signals or say you are interested in sex without having to say “I want to fuck you” or without being crude. Wow, astounding.
I have had guys express sexual interest; it was either how they look at me or little comments they made but without being crude or too direct.
@Jonny
I think where you and I are disagreeing is that 4 months is a lot of effort. I agree that most players will drop it, but given how little effort it is to send a couple texts I can easily see it going on. Plus, I know a couple girls who’ve been in this exact situation w/a guy for a couple months and then been dropped the moment they slept w/him.
Re: dating is dead, it depends. I go on dates both for the following reasons: 1. It expands your pool of women you can sleep with beyond the most promiscuous. 2. I actually enjoy going to cocktail bars and good restaurants and am willing to pay a bit to do so when my friends aren’t up for it, 3. I actually am open to a relationship if a truly deserving girl comes around, and your chances of finding/learning about that girl are much better over dinner than in her bed after the bar. 4. I can afford it for the most part (IE can afford about 1-2 dates per week without much problem). I NEVER go on dates on Friday/Saturday, but it’s generally more fun to go on a date on Tuesday than stay home and watch Seinfeld.
All of the above doesn’t mean I don’t still hit on/pick up women at bars (where do you think most of my dates come from). Most of the guys I know who are good with women do the same (ie dates and one night stands/booty calls), for mostly the same reasons as the above. Going on a date and paying is not necessarily a DLV. Just be a great conversationalist/flirter (confident, smart, witty), the same as you would be at a bar pickup, and when the check comes, just confidently pay it. If anything, it’s a DHV for a lot of women (especially high SMV ones), because it shows dropping that much money isn’t a big deal to you, which means it’s likely you’re ambitious and successful (not at all saying flaunt your wealth, that’s just crass, childish and embarrassing).
@Hope
Re: men are more romantic than women: guilty.
Haven’t followed the link but your description isn’t quite mine but…
Well, for me the meaningful times have been when I said it by accident. One, was during sex, and she made a smart-assed comment. I was going for, “And that’s why you like me” but “And that’s why I love you” came out instead. The other was similar but a bit over sharing for HUS.
@Kaiku
Because accusing red-pill men of agendas is missing that pretty much every woman here has one as well. Plus, agendas aren’t inherently bad. Susan has one that I respect and somewhat support, for example.
As for me and Deti and the name questions, is there a point somewhere around here? If you think I’m Deti’s (or anyone else’s for that matter) sock puppet, sorry, no.
If you think we know each other, just say so or go back a thread and find my email addy and mail me.
@Susan 206
Not to mention, those three guys she doesn’t know will IMMEDIATELY throw her in the slut/booty call category. Believe me, I’ve been Brady and one of those three guys, and that’s exactly what happens. A girl who you’ve barely kissed who comes across town at your beck and call at 12:30 AM? Slut, easy, skank, etc. Brady will get high-fives from the all the guys the next morning, after they’ve asked “did you bang her?” Ironically, my ex-gf almost always came from where she was to meet me, but that was not until AFTER we’d already started dating exclusively and I’d made it clear I wasn’t going to P-and-D her. Before that, if we met up at night, it was always agreed upon beforehand, and we split the comings and goings about 50/50.
@Ferret123
I got your point, however I figured it was just as smart to skip a step. Why beat up other men to get entitled princesses. Come over and bring your instrument and jam for a bit instead…I’ve been working on Bouree by Tull on the flute. I need another flautist and two bass players if you’re interested. Plus, I’m trying to combined Jarre/Kitaro style new age with a baroque dance suite centered on the lost continent of Rutas with a touch of JAMMS/KLF influence via an old Mage: the Awakening game.
@Liza
Okay, in the course of about a month:
1. Openly saying I was doing X to date (a conversation she was active in) and then asking here to X.
2. Championing her as the cutest of the netgoths, against publicly.
3. Specifically mentioning a couple of things she did were sexy.
This woman had multiple indications of interest commenting on her sexiness and indicating I did certain things with women I was interested in and then asking her to do them plus a few conventional indicators (do men not into you buy you flowers often?).
Again, with Bradys view on the interaction, this is a circle jerk; We have no clear cut of whether Brady is LTR material or not, as we can tell by the comments. You can craft a situation where he is more useless then a bag of hair and I can craft one to show him as the worlds most loving and tender man that is just bewildered by the beauty of Grace. Neither matters though because hunches and guesses are useless.
He is a Cad because he texts her late at night, but we are ignoring the information that goes along with this, he also texts her when he is drunk . . . AKA when he has some liquid courage in his system.
This looks like Hamster food to me.
Chuck
@BroHamlet
I agree, I think there is a good chance this is at least partially a misunderstanding. However, even in college every guy knows what a booty call is, and that a girl who “comes over” at 1 am is saying yes. My guess is that Brady got into his college relationship via casual hooking up – very much the hookup script. So it may be natural for him to think that’s going to work again. Seduce her, if the sex is great, go for Round 2, etc. etc. Perhaps Brady doesn’t see this as a high risk strategy for Grace.
Grace has communicated that she is not interested in being booty called, having sex, and seeing where this goes. It’s not surprising that women should want to abandon the hookup script asap after graduating, especially if they never participated. If Brady hasn’t figured that out, he will soon. Meanwhile, this is one more example why a 22 yo girl should not be trying to date a 22 yo boy.
Re Grace’s level of interest, she has definitely been receptive to texts and conversations. They have had several nice text exchanges. They have had conversations before about doing things together in the future, but according to Grace, there’s been no follow through. Also, FYI, she didn’t just spring the ultimatum on him suddenly. All along, she’s been clearly saying, “I’m not coming out to meet you right now, it’s 1 in the morning and I’m in bed. If you want to grab a bite some evening this week, I’d love to. Let me know.”
The more I write the more I am convinced he is 100% player. I really hope she just stops answering his texts.
Hi Herby!
“I agree, I think there is a good chance this is at least partially a misunderstanding.”
“The more I write the more I am convinced he is 100% player. I really hope she just stops answering his texts.”
These are not congruent statements.
Chuck
@Kaikou: No one calls me that…
@Herb
I got your point, however I figured it was just as smart to skip a step. Why beat up other men to get entitled princesses.
——–
I wasn’t saying fight physically. I think our experiences are different. I would get verbally put down by alphas until I didn’t care and it changed the way they responded to me and upped my self-esteem. Now I don’t concede them being better than me and it’s helped me mentally.
@Hope
I’m a big fan of being open and taking emotional risks, but for many guys today, those kinds of remarks set off “STAGE 5 CLINGER” alarms. It will only work with a guy who’s ready to jump in. If a guy isn’t sure about whether he even wants a relationship, much less with you, then saying those things may actually cause a preemptive dumping.
so liquid courage is where the bar is set?
@Ferret123
Oh, I know not physically. At 45 I’ve learned living well is the best revenge.
That said, why waste what I’ve built on the women that wanted them back then. If they want me now it’s only because I started winning not because suddenly they saw my real value.
The alpha men may be part of the problem, but the women who reward them for being the problem are the people I have no interest in bailing out.
Herb, yes saying you think she is sexy says a lot to about how much you are interested in her sexually, IMO. I meet a guy for a date or he textes me or we are talking on the phone and he says something like “Hi Sexy” not too direct and hot. For me, a guy referring to me using “sexy” says a lot about his intentions. I can either decide to move on or continue engaging him.
@Liza
Yes, but I assume you will move on (if that’s what you decide) before $100+ in cash and prizes.
Women have to prove that to me (HUS women would probably get a one round pass in general).
That’s true, but it seems ridiculous to claim that Brady was reticent in any way about approaching. In fact, he approached repeatedly in a way that suggested he was hoping to get lucky and have sex.
When a player makes a play, and he gets blown out, he may continue just for fun, especially if he thinks the woman is secretly attracted. He continues the chase for sport. It’s a game – that’s why he’s called a player.
‘That said, why waste what I’ve built on the women that wanted them back then. If they want me now it’s only because I started winning not because suddenly they saw my real value.’
I just don’t understand why that is so bad. The Game is the Game. You can’t change it as much as you can stop the sun from setting. That’s the goal, to win.
Neither sex is noble. People are selfish. Everyone that is dissatisfied with their sex life wants to win. The way to do that is take a real view of the battlefield and make a plan to ‘win’.
Really the only reason that anyone wants someone else is because of the value that person brings. Women it’s usually sex and men, status and resources.
@Hope & Kaikou
@Hope
This might be effective, but it requires the woman to sacrifice all her pride. In a situation where they actually haven’t progressed to hanging out, it would have to be more like, “I would like to hang out with you, but it seems like you only want to see me late at night…” That sounds pretty pathetic to me. It seems pretty clear based on his actions that he does not like her in any way that requires sunshine or intimate conversation.
Always a tricky question. I think most women would love the commitment first, and the compromise they’re willing to make is sex with exclusivity enroute to a relationship. A woman who has sex before exclusivity is playing a very high stakes game.
Hope:
Hope, I often find myself nodding in agreement to many of your suggestions.
On this post, you are spot on.
The only place where I’m not fully on board with you is with emotionally escalating via too much texts/non face-to-face contact. The reason being that I’ve seen too many people become emotionally invested with the WRONG people.
For those who question whether Hope’s suggestion of “emotional escalation prior to physical escalation” works…. this is actually the EXACT manner in which many extramarital affairs occur.
Many people underestimate how powerful it is to share their emotions with the opposite sex until they find themselves exchanging bodily fluids with someone. (“Oops, it just happened!” Uh, yeah.)
So, the trick for women is to emotionally escalate and slowly escalate physically. If the person doesn’t respond- a la “friendzoning” or “emotionally unavailable” then it’s a no-go.
@Marie
I’m glad you linked to Andrew’s post about initiating contact at Rules Revisited. That influenced my thinking on the issue. I think women should indicate interest, and let the man take it from there. I’m especially convinced of this after a woman recently let it be known that she had a crush on a guy. He approached, asked if it was true and said he thought she was hot and was really pleased. His interest flamed out very quickly. She would have been much better off flirting and leaving it there. He probably never would have tried to get with her. As it was, it became awkward with him avoiding her in their friend group.
@OhioStater
I confess your experience with the prettiest women is not what I’ve heard and read elsewhere. One of the primary problems in the SMP is that a lot of women find that they can pull men more attractive than themselves for ONSs, though not for relationships. This has caused a flooding of the market with promiscuous women in the 5-7 range. The female 9s and 10s are losers in this market, because there is little supply of male 9s and 10s who want committed relationships. Some of them undoubtedly resort to promiscuity and they are probably the ones most likely to turn a hookup into a relationship, I don’t know. But many don’t want to settle for casual sex with a guy of their SMV or a relationship with a guy of lower SMV. I see way more of the latter than the former, actually.
“So, the trick for women is to emotionally escalate and slowly escalate physically.”
^^^^
This is for women, where men usually physically escalate and slowly emotionally escalate.
@ Susan, 233
I don’t think it sounds that bad. What she said was already quite forward. I think she definitely should consider herself single and see what’s out there, but if he really makes an attempt to not let her go, she could meet up with him and tell him that she doesn’t want to be just ‘sort of seeing’ someone and she’s definitely not a last resort.
It’ll feel like she’s losing her pride if she’s really really into him and dying for his affection, but I don’t think that’s the case. And she hasn’t been sending the signals that she needs his approval, after all she’s let him initiate.
I’ve written that to a guy before, not because I doubted him but because I wanted to emphasize that I didn’t want the relationship to end up on the couch just yet (granted, we had already been on some ‘proper dates’ and I was sure of his interest in me).
Yes, women extremely often conflate length of effort with level of effort. I’ve never understood why.
Easy most women are not socialized to approach so once they are interested on a guy they can spent months waiting for him to make a move for them the guy that text them once a week spent the whole week thinking about them, projection as usual and also a bit of the “attractive men are nicer than they actually are” in the case of a player he probably as a string of women he does the same to see how falls first or that night and maybe doesn’t even remember her name he just knows he got the number of a “fuckable” girl and that is more than enough, but then this is not widespread knowledge. HUS is the red pill for women in that aspect.
However, this also could be what the alpha ultimately desires, the uber-hot ‘alpha’ female and the concubines on the side just like ancient kings.
Tiger could had gotten an “open marriage” easily he had the money and the status, as mentioned here many women would be willing to sign on to become Mr Wood for a tenth of that even if they agree to look the other way when she finds some strange panties on the house. I think he was just thinking with his dick and finding enough enablers that he though he could get away with it, YMMV.
@Herb
*ginatingle*
I’m really impressed with your knowledge of rom-coms.
Had you give it a chance to other romances like Twilight?
My mom once gave me some very good “filtering” advice:
* A guy that is serious about you won’t be trying to “hide” you. *
So the thing to watch for is whether a guy is willing to go out with you in public, introduce you to his friends, and generally make you a part of his life. The opposite of this is the guy who only ever wants to hang out at his apartment (ie. like the relationship between Adam and Hannah in Girls).
I also think that it’s a good idea for the girl to initiate the DTR “talk” pretty early on. Yes, it’s an awkward/difficult thing to do. But the guys are generally expected to do the approaching, so I think this is a fair trade-off.
Being “wined and dined” doesn’t really prove anything either. If you’re dealing with a broke college student, I guess an expensive date would be a big deal. But I also don’t think that it’s a reasonable thing to expect from a young guy. And if a guy does have extra money to throw around then being taken on nice dates doesn’t really prove anything with regards to commitment.
@Ferrett
I don’t expect to get Google at below the IPO price when I never worked to build it.
Too many women who see betas getting it together and couldn’t be bothered to support them when they were young want the fruits without the work and without providing even what they could have at 24.
BroHamlet, I did not say it was a strategy for men to employ. I’m saying if a woman wants to really filter, that this is the way to do it and still be able to show her interest in the man and not be totally stuck with zero prospects. Otherwise, I’d be single and whining about there being “no good men.” I took steps to help things along and make things happen. My husband and I did get in bed just a month after things heated up, which is a lot shorter timeframe than the 4 months of this story.
From a male perspective, Ted D also had lots of back-and-forth texting with his girl prior to relationship, commitment and sex. So, if it is a personality difference, then it’s a difference between people who don’t do casual vs. people who have no problems doing casual.
@Ana
My Favorite Year is a rom-com? I just thought it was a comedy with a side plot about a romance and arguably about a beta guy learning Game from an alpha in general but without specific reference to women.
It’s also one of the most under-rated films of all times. It is one of the few movies that holds a 100% “fresh” rating on Rotten Tomatoes.
As for Twilight, not happening. See the vampires/goths episode of Southpark to get my view.
@Jon
I think this is totally reasonable.
She went, and they had a nice conversation. Toward the end, he made moves, they made out for a while, then she left. He tried to escalate and she demurred, to which he said, “smart girl.”
She was very excited about him at that point. So there were three good hangs: the coffee date, the party, and a glass of wine at his place. But his effort definitely declined after that, and it’s been a while. Maybe he couldn’t tell she was interested? How can we ever know what men think????!!!!
Am I being too hard on this guy?
@Herb
“I don’t expect to get Google at below the IPO price when I never worked to build it.
Too many women who see betas getting it together and couldn’t be bothered to support them when they were young want the fruits without the work and without providing even what they could have at 24.”
——————————–
But that’s reality. If that’s what the market dictates, that what is dictates. If you want to date young women, you have to put up with the barriers to entry.
The way things should be has no bearing on acheiving the goal of dating twenty somethings. All you can do is use ‘Game’ and improvement to ‘win’.
Also, I think that men try to date up as well. A 6 wants a 6 or above and very rarely wants a 5 or 4. This isn’t how hypergamy works, men date down.
As for Twilight, not happening. See the vampires/goths episode of Southpark to get my view.
Heh I saw that episode knowing how South Park treats the “sects” I was worried about how was going to treat us Twihards, we got off easier than expected. I still think Park and Recreations is the best/funniest parody/reference episode for my saga so far, though.
Fair enough.
I also meant from other things you had mentioned and also your liking of ballet.
Do the guys want one?
@ Liza
Lord. You’re everything I hate about the North east coast – Boston and NYC. You’re a princess that expects to be wined and dined. You think it is your due. You think that you are entitled to it. You hate Betas, say that you turn down alphas, but have no real understanding of either.
Only a beta will ever try and play provider game on you. Only betas will ever subscribe to paying ridiculous sums of money just to ‘bask in your presence.’
The rest of us know that there are other women out there that are more enjoyable to be around, just as good looking as you, without the attitude or the entitlement.
@Hope
Yeah, I get you. This is good clarification, and as I said before I like the intent. Sounds like it would take some discipline and self-knowledge. If a woman who employs this is even moderately attractive, she’s going to have offers that could derail the entire effort. She’d have to be the type to forsake the need for attention and focus on her goal. You, for one, sound like you have enough girl game to pull this off, because you obviously made it work for you.
Alias, that is my point precisely. Emotional entanglement between opposite sexes is very much what lead to sexual attraction and possibly love. If a woman has no idea how to evoke this response in men, then she is just as bad off as the guy who has no idea how to make women tingle.
Face-to-face time was impossible for us in the very beginning, but I agree it is important because of the potential for lying. In our case we took lots of steps to make sure of transparency. He played the guitar for me on the phone, because a guy had lied to me in the past about being able to play the guitar. But the possibility for someone lying to your face exists, too.
Susan, I have a question. Did Grace ever do emotional escalation? Like, conversations asking him about his past? What he did in school, his last girlfriend, what his hobbies, interests and goals are? What his favorite music and movies are? What his family and friends are like? Getting to know somebody is a give-and-take, and it does not have to only happen on an official date, in a park or on a stroll.
Having a nice conversation about work or other superficial things don’t really mean anything. You have to go deeper (TM; Inception-style).
@Zach
Awesome epic comment from a man who’s been there and done that!
You answered the question in the question. In my experience, very good looking women are used to being evaluated for their looks alone. Most men couldn’t care less about getting to know them as human beings with the full range of emotions and experiences. To use a loaded word, they get objectified to a much higher degree than other women do. Lots of men come out of the woodwork just for the challenge of seducing them, just to experience banging that body and that face.
I’ve seen a lot of really nasty things being said about Mark Zuckerburg’s wife being ugly. I don’t know why it doesn’t occur to anyone that she is literally the only woman in the world he can trust to love him for himself. They met as students before he ever thought of FB. If he wanted to marry and have a family, she was clearly the best choice.
On a much smaller scale, I think beautiful women fear being just another trophy.
On filtering 101 for men…
It would be an interesting read.
But I’ll bet dollars to donuts that the 20 something men here will interpret it as “This is what women think a high-quality woman is,” which is quite a different thing than a filter that they’ll be ready to accept.
I fear the reality is that Alpha males aren’t too interested and Beta males are too ready to open up the filters to allow almost anyone who meets the minimum requirements (which aren’t all that high to begin with).
- On the issue of committing emotions and sex
I think a quality woman is more than within her rights to escalate the commitments of emotions, time, and money from a man.
However, I think it should be expected that as she does so, she is willing to receive and act upon sexual escalations from the man.
I think that women should not be put off by men trying to escalate sexually – it is our ONLY WAY of being able to learn your nature and how you might have received similar sexual advances in the past. At least, the only way short term. As a relationship develops there are long term tells and getting to know your friends/past.
So, meet sexual escalation with emotional and commitment escalation. Its the only way that both sexes can each vet the other for players, sluts, cads, and entitlement princesses.
Sexual escalation does not necessarily mean sex. It means physical touch that makes a man feel masculine. Early escalation can be holding hands, putting your hand on his arm, his chest, laying your head in his lap during a movie. Basically anything that is submissive, delicate, and feminine in body language. Doing this while following his leadership on dates, plans, etc is how you can escalate sexually without upping your partner count while you also escalate emotionally.
If the man is interested in a relationship, he will likely continue to push sexually as you push for relationship, but he will still be CONTENT under all that knowing that the bond is being formed. And that it is not a bond where he is setting up long term patterns of him getting screwed over on his needs while yours are met.
@deti
May I ask what evidence you have relied on to form this conclusion?
@Chuck Berry
Eh, that’s always the risk with reader letters and stories. Still, it’s often interesting to debate the hypotheticals. The story gives a useful structure for debating the larger questions.
Grace describes Brady as extremely outgoing, social and confident. That’s why she was drawn to him in the orientation. As for her own past, Grace has been very circumspect. She got played once as a college freshman and learned that hard lesson very quickly.
Emily:
“So the thing to watch for is whether a guy is willing to go out with you in public, introduce you to his friends, and generally make you a part of his life”
——–
This one’s not so clear cut. Introducing you to friends may mean nothing.
Introducing you to family, his boss/coworkers, etc. – IOW, other people who may not be willing to back him up if he’s playing you, the ones who he must show his “best self” to.
@Leap of a Beta
“The rest of us know that there are other women out there that are more enjoyable to be around, just as good looking as you, without the attitude or the entitlement.
”
But wouldn’t those women be in short supply given that the conclusion is that most young women overvalue themselves leading again to fierce competition.
The reality is that if you want young twentysomething women you have to do what is necessary under market conditions.
@ Hope
“a guy had lied to me in the past about being able to play the guitar”
No woman deserves that!
Sorry it made me laugh.
Anyway, I’m learning a lot about emotional escalation. I’ve realized I’m closed up. The guy I’m dating has been the first one to bring up all of those things.
@ Ferret
“But wouldn’t those women be in short supply given that the conclusion is that most young women overvalue themselves leading again to fierce competition.
The reality is that if you want young twentysomething women you have to do what is necessary under market conditions.”
Absolutely. But I’d much rather spend time with 1 of them that I got by actual personality and skill than 20 women that would leech me of my time, energy, and money with no guarantee of any return of interest.
Life is too short for me to be interested in giving any part of it to those that don’t appreciate it or aren’t worth it. That’s the heart of the red pill – realizing that most women aren’t worth any real commitment between now and when you die.
Which is why men that know better will, can, and do expect sex early or signs of sexual escalation that are in sync with those that a woman is asking of us in terms of our lives and resources.
Oh no! Our two resident players Jason and Zach are not in agreement! They are both highly credible sources of info re SMP dynamics among 20-somethings.
@Jason
That’s a fair point. I think Grace is very guarded, having been burned once in a rather dramatic fashion.
Do you really think it’s kosher for Brady to be inviting her to come over all the time? One thing I wondered – they both are one year out of college, and I’m not sure how big their respective social circles are yet in this city. He may actually not have that much going on, so inviting her over one on one may not be as shady as it seems. Although the late night part continues to disturb me. Why can’t he send that same text at 8 or 9?
OK, so. Let’s assume Grace reads this thread (No idea if she will, I wrote this up with a pseudonym without even consulting her.) What would you advise her to do? I know Brady was texting as recently as this past weekend.
Marie, well that’s not a huge deal, but lying is crappy regardless. On his part, some girl who was really overweight gave him cleverly angled face shots, so he had no idea until he actually saw her in person. So yeah my husband asked me for lots of pictures, and I obliged.
I do have to admit, similar to J, that musical talent is very attractive. Our son might learn to play the guitar, too, and that’s a total lady-killer.
@Leap of a Beta
I’m not encouraging being a player at all. I agree with the Be the Best Man You Can Be link you have there. You be the best you can be and try your ass off and if that doesn’t work you regroup and try again.
The one thing I’m against is complaining about how it is since it’s not changing any time soon.
LMAO
Forgot to respond to this part:
“The reality is that if you want young twentysomething women you have to do what is necessary under market conditions.””
Saying that you need to take a woman out on dates and pay for her in today’s SMV, that it is part of the current market condition, is an outright lie. It is a hold over of pre-feminist courting rituals that expressed that men did this to show interest and that women were required to make a choice either way very quickly. A whole community would know if a man was courting a woman, or multiple men courting a woman. In order to not be seen as a woman trying to sell herself, she either had to let him know early she wasn’t interested or show that she would show fidelity to him through marriage.
Now a date doesn’t get you a kiss, ESPECIALLY if you see it as a way to get one. Sometimes it doesn’t even get you a number or a second date. It only gets you an empty wallet, a feeling of hollow emptiness as a man, and a full stomach for the woman that never intended to take it anywhere further to begin with. Sometimes, if the guy is super-beta-orbiter 2.0, this can happen multiple times.
And no, before women cry out, I’m not saying that a date SHOULD purchase you anything. But if a guy takes you out for dinner/drinks, don’t even try to lie to yourself or him that his intentions weren’t clear unless he outright states its for business, as a friendship, or is in a relationship. Anything else vague or unspecific about why he’s asking you to drinks, food, coffee…. well, he wants to pursue you.
@Escoffier
Ha, you know me well! I didn’t let it slide, it’s just taking me a while to get through all the comments. This post is already at 245 – that’s crazy.
This is probably going to seem repetitive, but I think it works here.
When in college, I had at least two tracks or categories of women I knew. One was the category of women I dated.
One was the category of women with whom I worked in class, field projects, part-time employment. For some reason I cannot figure, it never occurred to me to try to date from the second category.
The second category included a number of eights and up–’cause I got myself a gig with a sorority field project was one reason–who knew I wasn’t entirely unclear on their physical attributes.
However, after a certain time passed, the reflexive presumption I was going to go after her/them faded due to lack of use. That included filters. We got along famously as people. I got to know them and they me. It was great. They saw me being competent and confident in whatever it was, useful and sometimes forceful, although rarely toward them.
If I can take a lesson from this, it would have two components. Women will go for guys they like, even if it takes time. You broadcast your value by not chasing them–because, although surrounded by attractive women, you’re not needy. In fact, some of the feminine ways of getting things such as lab help–batting eyes, standing hipshot, etc.–don’t work. Make the case like a person and we’ll see. Those I could spot and indicate impatience.
And then I got IOIs, which I didn’t interpret correctly for a couple of decades. Even from 9s and 10s.
Secondly, to make this work in the second category, you need a first category in order to be seen as socially active, not a recluse, and not needy.
So perhaps one of the best attributes to display is being not needy, and competent among women.
I dunno. Seems to be something there.
@ Ferret
Ah, ok. I misunderstood.
I still hold that you are only required to wine and dine the entitlement princesses. That all others don’t have formal dating as a requirement for early dating before sex happens and that this is only what women are trying to sell men. And sell themselves as a hamsterization of why they think they’re entitled to it without anything in return.
Because of course they’re a ‘quality woman unlike any other.’
Otherwise, be the best man you can be. Sell yourself, show yourself, know your own value. And know that a woman has to show you she’s worth any small part of that value before you give it to her.
@Leap
I didn’t mean buying her things. I meant you had to compete with the other men.
Like: Not worshipping her, having high self esteem, being firm and decisive, going to the gym regularly, eating right, being good at a sport/hobby.
If the market says that a 23 rated 6 is selling for an 8 then that’s what you have ‘pay’ to get her.
Is Kaikou Plain Jane?
@ Ferret
I found another way to say it.
The man who knows his own value and sets his own market conditions will do better in this market than the one who doesn’t. They’re able to do this because most of women’s tingle triggers ™ are set off by confidence, preselection, charisma, and leadership.
So ignore the market for the most part. Don’t limit yourself to the 8′s, 9′s, and 10′s, but don’t be afraid of them either. They’re still human, sexual, and want a man who knows he’s a man.
Grace did exactly the right thing. I have had guys texting, wanting to basically “text-date”, no face to face interaction until it’s time to seal the deal. No thanks. Even if those guys believe genuinely they are making efforts, it is still subpar.
I’m still amazed that some men would want to invest little to zero efforts to seduce and date women yet expect to get all the perks and advantages they provide. I’m sorry but as a friend told me, “a non employee gets no benefits”, and whoever gets/give them without contract is a fraud.
I’m just happy most guys I know still ask women out, it’s cute and really put in focus the idea of forming a couple and selecting each other, so it weeds out the least serious candidates. I always consider that a guy who doesn’t ask me out and follow up with an actual date are not interested, because I’m sure that if I were a 9/10, they would run even for the chance at a ONS, let alone a LTR.
@modernguy
” A girl is not less of a slut because she prefers her promiscuity in the form of serial monogamy.”
Promiscuity is defined as “the practice of casual sex with multiple sexual partners.” This is not the same thing at all as serial monogomy.
Is Kaikou Plain Jane?
On the fence…. but she is in my watch, the ideas are the same but the style is a bit different. I will let others chime in and wait for a clearer “tell”
Mag: “Promiscuity is defined as “the practice of casual sex with multiple sexual partners.” This is not the same thing at all as serial monogomy.”
How long is monogamy? 1 year? 1 month? 1 day? 1 hour?
If you think about it, everyone’s “monogamous” unless they’ve had a threesome. Woo!
I know, I’m spinning this way and that, trying to figure it out, based on all the good feedback. That’s what girls do.
I love broccoli.
Yes it’s PJ, on multiple handles.
I know they had good talks on the few occasions they did meet, including this kind of conversation. But it was very early getting to know you stuff. I think Grace feels that she’s never really had the opportunity to cement that connection. Though it sounds like people believe she should have taken a more active role.
Honestly, late night texts are a red flag for good reason. If Brady really likes her, he should know better. As Zach said, guys are aware that a legit girl is going to react poorly to being put in the booty call list, so why risk that confusion?
@OfftheCuff
Casual sex would be sex outside of a committed relationship where neither partner is falling in love.
Now if the three of you were committed and in love…idk.
@Joe
I think you’re right. I get enough pushback from guys on the advice I give to women, why even go there?
@Leap of a Beta
+1
@Mireille
I think I recall you saying you are French? I’m curious how your dating marketplace differs from ours. Do young men and women go out on dates as a pair? What are the expectations re the timing of sex?
Haha, that was my biggest laugh of the day. I love this “job.”
Susan, it is true about late night texts. But a lot of young guys have next to zero manners nowadays, so it’s hard to say. The fact that he’s supposedly attractive and confident point the dial toward player, but most players don’t date at work either.
I think the best thing is to not let something like this drag on for so long. It’s interesting that Brad was the one who sent the message about her not being willing to take it to the next step. Maybe in his mind she was flaking or something.
Also you said Grace is emotionally guarded. That’s not really good. You can’t be all filter with no catch. They say you catch more bees with honey than vinegar. Sure there has to be a way to stop the nasty flies from coming in, but even the bees might only circle for a bit if there’s no certainty of honey at the other end.
Seems like there is a player hiding behind every bush in these parts, genuine players are quite rare, even high SMV guys are rarely players.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity, most guys are bumbling idiots around women and wouldn’t know the rules even if it was written on the back of their hands.
@ Susan
Haha, thanks Susan.
Currently dealing with some of the issues involved with this problem, which is why I’ve gotten invested in the comment thread. It’s an…. interesting situation that I haven’t dealt with before.
Attractive women only filter out attractive players when they are ready to settle down. Until then the only filtering out they do is filtering out unattractive men. The hookup scene is filled with plenty of attractive women hooking up with equally attractive men. Has anyone else here seen the recent movie “Think Like a Man” based on Steve Harvey’s book?
Thank God for old age. I would go insane doing this Kabuki dating/hookup shit. But my three kids will have to figure it out. The Susan-deti exchange at 183 crystallizes the opposing positions as well as anything. One question: who takes their mask off first?
@Think Like a Man
Definitely not the case with Grace. She’s beautiful, 22, one year out of school. The combination of her looks and her low count can only be explained by her having kicked many a cad to the curb.
It sure is. One of my favorite posts to write was Guitar Game:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/05/27/relationshipstrategies/guitar-game/
@deti
It’s back to combat dating, the tug of war….
To a certain degree, it always has been a tug of war centered around trading sex for resources. I think that goes back to the caves, but I also think it reached its apex in the 50s and 60s when girls were taught to hold out for that “good provider.”
1. The financial and social costs, nearly all of which is borne by men. … either of which can result in lost jobs, ruined careers, reputation destruction and even criminal prosecution.
So therefore, any woman who goes out with a guy owes him immediate sex? Really?
She either is attracted sexually, or she is not. There is no in between. Sexual attraction is almost always instantaneous.
And a woman should bed every guy she feels chemistry with? With no investigation of character? Why? So you can berate for having a high number later? I’m still where I was in my first post of this thread. First dates should be low investment for for everyone. No big financial investment on the guy’s part, no sex.
Thus, I don’t agree that the man should need to put out time for her so she can get to know him or make a reasonable decision about him. The attraction and “spark” is either there, or it is not there.
If a woman is not worth a guy’s time, she should realize that she is worthless to him.
@OffTheCuff
You are the best Plain Jane detector around. I don’t know how you do it. I’m always worried about offending a new commenter with a wrongful accusation.
“@Eff why is he only texting her when he is out already? No plans ahead of time. Also mentioning he wants more and to see her apartment? Come on. Clearly a player…
I have a guy who has been texting me every month. Surprisingly it’s always on his day off and always at night. Also it never asks anything just makes statements with a smiley face with sunglasses at the end. Can someone say mass texts?
I also lately have seen him out after not seeing him for months. I always blow him off and he makes a point of saying hi to me when clearly I am ignoring. Again player.
I hope that Grace holds her ground. If he wants to be with her (longterm/seriously) – she wouldn’t have to tell him how to improve. The effort would be there.”
I disagree. I also disagree with Grace. He might be a player but from the little information we have here it doesn’t seem likely. He didn’t pursue her while he had a gf, he waited until they broke up. He’s given plenty of oppurtunity for HER to ask HIM out to that 7pm dinner or jog that she seems to so badly want. Why hasn’t she stepped up HER game?
Do you know how many women there are who are getting ZERO texts from men and would totally appreciate and lap up this kind of attention like a puppy? Quite frankly both these women sound like they suffer from a case of PPS – Princess Privelege Syndrome.
How about knocking it down a few notches ladies and putting in some effort yourselves? You say you’re better off not getting any attention at all if the attention is going to be “half assed”. OK, lets see how well you would do getting ZERO attention from men. I’m willing to bet you’d start complaining and missing the half assed attention, perhaps even begging for it.
@Hope
Agreed, but there are many men who would happily take advantage of Grace.
If she had not been guarded these last few years, her count would be high. I would guess at least 20. Aside from the liability of that sexual history, all that “just kidding, don’t want a relationship!” really destroys something in women. A woman is better off being careful, even at the risk of catching some good guys in the filter.
@Johnycomelately
Perhaps, but the cost for handling a player poorly is quite high for women. It’s no wonder that women see players lurking everywhere. Also, I believe that very high SMV women get a disproportionate amount of attention from players. One woman told me she feels like she’s always surrounded by wolves, always sniffing.
@SW
A woman who has sex (and the accompanying risk of pregnancy and disease) as the payment for a meal at Applebee’s is batshit insane.
Oh, no, Susan, there are no risks for women in the SMP. Only men face risk.
BTW, I recently saw an article on the net in which Russell Brand claimed to still be in love with Katy Perry–not that they both aren’t nuts.
“If the babe is hot and a catch more than likely she is traditional and needs someone who will SHOW he is interested.”
Isn’t this just an assumption that good looking people are somehow more moral than average looking people? Where is the evidence for this?
Yes, that’s a sneaky tactic, that is.
“Grace is (or was) interested in Brady. Truly, really interested in getting to know him. She felt great anticipation about his initial expression of interest. She doesn’t need his money, doesn’t need any man to buy her a meal or a drink.”
And yet she asked him why he didn’t ask her out for a 7pm dinner, presuming which she would expect him to pay for based on the “who invites pays” rule. He has texted her several times over 3 months, showed interest, even politely ASKED if he could kiss her. No, no, no this guy is not a player. She has had plenty of oppurtunity to ask him to that 7pm dinner, why hasn’t she? She has not reciprocated his interest at all. If this oppurtunity fails to launch it is her fault, not his.
But in reading what you described to women in my range reads like this:
1. Ballet tickets
2. Flowers when you pick her up
3. Dinner at a moderately ($50/2) expensive restaurant
for a first date. Add it up, that’s easily $100 spent on her (I would have gone to the ballet and probably dinner without her).
That’s a ridiculous first date IMO for a number of reasons:
1. The attention of both people will be on the ballet and not each other
2. It makes the guy look like a desperate pushover
3. It raises suspicion on the part of the woman that the man will expect sex as reciprocity for the dinner/ballet tickets
4. It should make a guy suspicious as to whether or not the woman is a golddiggerif hse is the one who pressed for the big evening.
If a man wants to get to know a woman and vice-versa, coffee is enough for starters.
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