Very attractive women get a lot of attention from cads and players. In a vestige of assortative mating among the beautiful people, the men most desired by women will at least occasionally try to supplement their “one and done” conquests with women of their own sexual market value. The highest value “target” is a super hot babe who isn’t promiscuous.
Everything else being equal, the better looking a woman is, the less likely she is to indulge in casual sex. Unlike her male counterpart, who finds himself deluged with offers for what he prizes most (sexual variety), the beautiful woman finds herself the loneliest girl at the ball. David Buss, in The Evolution of Desire, explains why the most attractive women are loath to sell themselves short in the relationship market:
Those who hold valuable resources do not give them away cheaply or unselectively. Evolution favored women who were highly selective about their mates. If a woman walked away from a casual encounter pregnant, she bore the costs of that decision for decades afterward. Today, the pill alters that cost. But sexual psychology evolved over millions of years. We still possess this underlying sexual psychology even though our environment has changed.
… Men’s low standards for [casual sex] reveal a precise strategy to gain access to a variety of partners.
According to Buss, the floor of male attraction for no-strings sex is characterized by the following female traits:
- A low sex drive
- Physical unattractiveness
- Need for commitment
- Hairiness
Bwahahahaha! I’ve known some women fitting 2-4 who bedded players. Beauty is just a lightswitch away!
Of course, everything else never is equal, and some women, including very good looking women, choose to play in the promiscuous pool. Genetic traits, family history, and self-esteem are all correlated to promiscuity in women.
By and large, though, the women with the highest sexual market value will demand commitment (of emotion or resources) in exchange for sex. Problematically, the men most likely to approach them are the men least willing to make the trade. If cads and players wore signs like marathoners wear numbers, filtering out these opportunists would be easy, if somewhat tedious. In a college environment, a woman can easily steer clear of cads, or make inquiries when necessary to get the scoop on a guy’s MO. After graduation this becomes considerably more difficult. Short of having her knees wired shut, what’s a good looking girl to do?
Of all the stories I hear from readers, I estimate that between one-third and one-half of them are from women who incorrectly judged a man’s character and got burned in the process. With assholes pretending to be good guys, and good guys pretending to be assholes, the lines have become very blurred. Still, women are the gatekeepers to sex, and it is always the female’s responsibility to adequately screen men for honest intent.
The tried and true method of delaying sex until you know “what it is we’re doing” is still your best bet. But a girl can waste a lot of time and get pretty attached to a guy during that period, only to find out he “wasn’t trying to turn this into anything.” This weekend a young woman shared her method for filtering out players and it’s probably the best one I’ve heard. She’s used it to great effect several times. Unfortunately, every single one of the guys has turned out to want nothing from her but sex, which sucks. She’d love for just one guy to make it through the filter. Of course, nothing is foolproof and a clever cad could sneak through, but she recognizes the enormous value of having a standard that cads are unlikely to meet.
“Be less interested or more interested.”
Grace met Brady in an orientation program at work. (They had just started working for the same company, but not the same department.) They hit it off, but she learned he was still with his college girlfriend, so she kept her distance. He didn’t act flirtatious or shady, so she figured he was a good guy. A couple of months after the program ended, he asked her out for coffee to catch up, and took the opportunity to mention that he had broken up with his girlfriend. As they walked back to work, he casually said, “We should hang out sometime.”
Brady began to text Grace just about every weekend. He was always wondering where she was and whether she wanted to come meet him. Since she was with her own friends, she declined the opportunity to hop in a cab and join him on the other side of town. At a Marathon Monday party held by a coworker, Brady was very attentive and when he walked Grace to her car, he told her how much he’d enjoyed seeing her outside the office and asked if he could kiss her.
Grace: “I don’t think that’s a good idea. Things could get awkward at work.”
Brady: “I don’t share your concern.”
Grace: (laughing) “Oh really? Why is that?”
Brady: “Because there are only two ways things could get awkward. One is if I tell anyone else our business, and the other is if I act like a dick. I have no intention of doing either.”
They kissed. That night Brady sent Grace a text: I want more 
Brady continued to text Grace frequently, always spontaneously. He usually initiated texting once he was already out, inviting her over. In some ways Grace felt singled out for attention by this handsome young man. He was motivated, in touch, consistent, and undeterred. He began checking in to see how her day was, say good night, etc. He invited her over for a glass of wine, and asked when he would get to see her apartment. In some ways, Grace felt that she’d gotten to know Brady pretty well, and he certainly had been making his interest clear over the past three months.
One night Brady confronted Grace (by text of course) about her unwillingness to take their relationship to the next step. He told her he was tired of putting in all the effort if she wasn’t going to give him a shot.
Grace: “You need to be less interested or more interested.”
Brady: “What does that mean?”
Grace: “Your effort is consistent but half-assed.”
Brady: “Half-assed? What the hell. Why would you even say that. I’ve been trying to get with you for months.”
Grace: “Exactly. You want to see me? Let’s meet for dinner one night at 7:00. Let’s go for a run. Don’t text me late night when you’re already out with your friends. Either stop contacting me completely or step up your game.”
This just happened, so I don’t know the outcome yet, but Grace feels certain she won’t be receiving any more attention from Brady. In fact, she thinks it’s entirely possible a lot of those texts were group texts.
Many women convince themselves that a consistent level of attention over a period of time means the guy’s intentions point toward a relationship instead of a hookup. In fact, months of low quality attention is worthless. You’d be better off without it. You’d benefit if he were less interested.
If he does want something real, he’ll step up and ask you out in a legit way, eager to demonstrate he’s not a player. He’d be more interested.
{ 808 comments… read them below or add one }
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@Tom
Of course it would, but most women would scream bloody murder.
Efforts to introduce it are opposed by feminist groups as an attack on women.
“went on to tell me how he was honored that I agreed to go on a date with him. Seriously? I hate when guys do this. First off, this guy wasn’t bad looking in the least. He was quite attractive, and I’d consider he and I relatively of the same attractiveness level. A simple “You look pretty tonight” would have sufficed. When he commenced to denigrate himself and ramble on about my looks, it made me feel uneasy.”
Some guys take that to absurd lengths:
http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/boundless-blogger-considers-first-anniversary-a-miracle/
I agree with deti.
Cute, loyal, faithful and kindness in a woman is valuable to a marriage in and of itself.
Actually they probably represent 90% of the value in a marriage.
I can make my own food and wash my own socks.
@Sassy
Looks like you found a good one.
Thanks for the description.
@Tom & deti
I agree, Tom. Not that I’m calling out deti- he’s usually really reasonable, and I suspect it wasn’t his intent to narrow it down so far, but I’ll let him speak for himself on that.
@Susan
Tom gets at something real here. So much has been made about this girl Grace’s SMV being high because she’s cute (or beautiful, whatever). Truth is, a package of 1 item isn’t a package at all (for anyone, male or female), and everyone knows that it takes a whole host of positive traits to make a solid long term relationship. Now, I know Grace probably has other strong points. Simple fact is, though, for women in the 9/10 range it takes a lot to make it worth a 9/10 guy’s while to enter a relationship, especially at an age like 22 where neither party is likely to be in that relationship for all that long. As someone else already mentioned- when a girl talks about “I want a commitment”, guys who have been around the block a little bit think in the back of their heads “we’ll see how long this lasts”. At 22, that’s probably not going to be long, especially for a hot girl- inevitably another Mr. Big will come along (even if you are Mr. Big already), and your “LTR” is a wrap.
You asked the question before as to what an attractive, high SMV girl’s strategy should be at that age. Hope gets at the most effective ways- her girl game is tight, obviously. And she is totally right in saying that all filter and no catch is a recipe for failure. In my experience a lot of early 20-something girls are just that. Femininity is REALLY key. The looks will get his attention, but the femininity is what keeps him around. My suggestion would be to use the femininity as a filter in and of itself, because only a sociopath will want to take advantage of a girl that shows some vulnerability. If a girl senses a hardened player or a sociopath, she should put up HARD screening measures- women are really perceptive so I wouldn’t think it would be a stretch for them to know when this is necessary.
Done and done:
1) Hot. Sane. Single.
2) Pick two of the above. If you find one with all 3, WIFE HER NOW.
Yes, a woman of color who is not the ideal swpl type of beauty? Oh, yes, I’ve seen the nasty comments about her looks and about his choice to be with her.
I hate to make it about race but per my experience when a WOC marries a white man that is superior to her on some way “looks, money, success” there is a lot more talk than if she were white. It was one of the many things I noticed at Jezebel.
Message received. I’ll have to think on this. Hope has weighed in, but if any other women here have successfully done this, I’d love to hear about it. I don’t have any personal experience with this. :-/
My strategy was similar but I didn’t though it was a strategy I was being honest about how things were progressing for me. I did sent the first message as mentioned but I also sent the first gift we meet on December and in February when we already accumulated several hours I sent him a Valentine (it was some Dominican candy and some tiny plastic bonsais because he told me his plants kept dying I though he would like them he still has them on both his desk), now I need to mention that I enjoy giving a great deal and one of the things I missed about not having a boyfriend on ten years was not having anyone to give things/money/sexual attention. I think that makes hubby feel more confident on pursuing me himself further, specially when he told me that here in USA men are expected to give Valentines while is more or less optional for women. Then of course I have a high emotional intelligence so I discovered his likings and remember them and ask him a lot about it, I also asked him about his old girlfriends I didn’t knew it them but according to Margaret Kent (How to marry the man of your choice) this is a good technique to connect with a man’s emotions because for most men women of his past occupy a special place so sharing this important emotional milestones with him make you special to him. I also clearly communicated him that I was a virgin but I also used to do small signals of sexual interest like initiating sex talk, I gifted me with a webcam so I used to strip on the webcam for him, and I sent him a video of me felating my finger for a few seconds spontaneously and I asked him to strip for me and of course complimented his “family jewels” once I saw them. I never asked him for presents of money (except when he came to visit me the first time I told him that I wanted something he made himself and that I can carry with me at all times, I was picturing a keychain but he instead made me a silver ring that ended up becoming my engagement band
) and once we decided for him to come and visit me I asked to share expenses 50/50 because I knew it was a big expense for him. I did let him to tell me he loved me first it was a shock but once I felt he was in love with me allowing myself to tell him the same was easier from them on we always say “I love you” when we say good bye over the phone or before we leave for work.
Hope that helps.
I’m getting excited. Isn’t that silly? I can’t help it, I feel like Mother Goose.
Me too! Is the first HUS wedding after all so its a time for celebration.
The goths were perfect with the “don’t care attitude” and the constant cloves. Plus, the use of the universal goth distress signal of “hand, staple, forehead” by the one kid was perfect.
Yeah the guys did their homework.
I think the reason people are being so mean is that they view it as a waste. For a ton of guys, if they spent their 20s with billions of dollars running one of the coolest companies in the world, they’d be converting that into strange, hot p*ssy every night of the week. It’s the ultimate demonstration of High Market Value, and so they feel he got handed the keys to the player kingdom and essentially said “no thanks”. That’s why guys are upset about it.
Yeha many men have this idea that any guy that reaches certain level should use it to bed as many women as possible so committing to one is like they are betraying the dream, they owe the ones that can’t to project themselves into that position. Is as stupid as feminist complaining of women becoming wives and mothers instead of career girls so both genders seem to have a natural impulse against monogamy if the person has better options regardless if that particular individual thinks differently, YMMV.
@Ana
Yet the same feminists would be screaming bloody murder if he hadn’t wifed up his “ugly” girlfriend (can’t comment on if ugly is right or not, never seen a picture and don’t care enough to look) but had become a player instead.
Which is really odd…men should marry but women shouldn’t? (kind of like the worst of the players who will only marry virgins).
Bravo, Sassy, for being honest, both here, and to your date.
Those sure do look like chump moves to me, when done so early on. I sure wouldn’t be caught dead doing that stuff, even when I was 20, and I’m true-blue “beta”. In the past you’ve set a very high bar for what you want when it comes to alpha qualities, but what you say here is NOT unreasonable. Not in the least bit.
Your situation is puzzling. Maybe you just need an uglier guy with better game, because all the good-looking guys (who aren’t players) are to used to having it way too easy. They can get away with chumpy behavior with most women, but not with you. I don’t know.
On Priscilla Chan
Shes not a super model. Her wedding photo is beautiful. Other google pics show a pretty/cute woman. She is definetely not ugly.
Except in some photos she looked a little hefty but it appears she dropped it. Looks much better for it.
@Susan, Ana
“I’m getting excited. Isn’t that silly? I can’t help it, I feel like Mother Goose.
Me too! Is the first HUS wedding after all so its a time for celebration. ”
You two are funny. Thank you.
“My suggestion would be to use the femininity as a filter in and of itself, because only a sociopath will want to take advantage of a girl that shows some vulnerability. If a girl senses a hardened player or a sociopath, she should put up HARD screening measures- women are really perceptive so I wouldn’t think it would be a stretch for them to know when this is necessary.”
I believe the old catholic line goes something like ‘The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing you that he does not exist.’
I think the second greatest trick was convincing you that evil and good are easy to tell from one another. I would wager the majority of people are not actually aware of the the social paths in their everyday life let alone what separates one from the other.
Chuck
Which is really odd…men should marry but women shouldn’t? (kind of like the worst of the players who will only marry virgins).
@Lokland
Aside from that fact that I sort of respect certain things you do and are (not all as probably you had noted) and I think you truly love your fiance and she loves you and I think marriage is the best way two people in love can enjoy themselves and form a family.
I will also count that every marriage and baby born from the regular commenter is a small badge of victory. What would be the point of all this gender talk if no one places their money were their mouth is? I’m a woman of results after all
@Chuck Berry
I guess the way Hope described it, it was actively seeking to probe a person’s intentions by taking it to an emotional level, not just sucking your thumb and giving doe eyes, or rolling over to get taken advantage of. Susan asked for strategies, and this seems better than what they’ve currently been doing, because the current methods don’t work that well, which is why we’re having this discussion at all.
@Lokland
While I get what you’re saying I think you’re missing a broader issue in terms of cultural trends.
Look at the usage of ready made meals and dining out today compared to even 1980. Look at how wrinkly clothes are (remember, I took a class on ironing at SJW so to me it’s important).
Marriage has long been a combination of complementary skills. What those skills are varies with time but egalitarian marriage is no labor specialization is rare. I’m tempted to say it’s a modern American experiment.
That’s a real concern for me both personally and on a social level.
I can cook. To be honest I’m better at it than my current gf. If we move in together (as we’ve discussed) I will probably do most of the cooking. That will provide value beyond making food. It provides constancy and routine. It promotes concentration on specialized skills which means the development and deployment of comparative advantage which means a better standard of living for both of us.
In fact, home economics of the 50/60s was designed to give a woman comparative advantage in those skills improving both her life and her husbands. It allowed her husband to concentrate on work giving him comparative advantage there. Even if we aren’t equipped by cultural default that way anymore highlighting what we specialize in and looking for mates who specialize in the compliments and then organizing our lives for comparative advantage will help.
I’d argue a lot of cost of living increases (higher monetary cost for the same standard of living…this is separate from increasing the baseline) since the 60s is the loss of this comparative advantage in more and more households.
Wanting a wife who, say, cooks isn’t just about women’s work but can be about partnership.
@Ana: the men should marry and woman shouldn’t was me.
BroHamlet, thanks for saying I have good girl game.
I’d say 70% of it comes from red pill knowledge, and the rest being cultural factors and instinct/habit.
I’ve written these posts before:
http://www.rosehope.com/what-makes-men-fall-in-love/
http://www.rosehope.com/loves-logic/
There are only small bits about emotional escalation in there. I write generally about cultivating a good, kind, sweet, feminine, open, and loving self and allowing men into your heart.
Lots of women walk around with their guards and walls up, and that’s not conducive to letting a man love her. I’ve known girls who don’t do much at all to inspire secret admirers, and they’re not always the 9s and 10s in looks. They all exude this loving aura and energy that men find irresistible.
The bitch shield for the super hot girls attracts player and non-serious types, while the sweetness and kindness attract men who are searching for love. The thing she has to do once she’s attracted the guys is get to know them better and not open her legs in the meanwhile. It’s a better strategy than shutting out the good guys and getting hit on by the most brazen and fearless players.
Another girl game tip; the “beta” stuff a lot of men do is what those men find very attractive if a cute girl was doing it. Take Sassy’s post for example. A man would find it adorable if the girl blushed during the kiss and said she was nervous, if she told him that she felt honored to be there with him, and that he was so good looking and made her feel uncertain.
The key to getting inside a man’s heart is softness, not hardness. In Eastern philosophy the water’s strength is in its flowing and ability to get inside small crevices and overwhelm. Emotions are compared to water, while logic and reason are compared to rock. You can’t beat a man into loving you, but you can use your warm softness to melt him. That’s the essence of girl game, not combat, manipulation or getting the upper hand.
@Ana: the men should marry and woman shouldn’t was me.
I know I made a mistake there was a paragraph between that and Lokland comment that got chopped off. :/
Yeah I agree that feminists just want to give the women “whatever she wants right now!” And since she fulfilled the program “Had a career first” they would be on her side but if she was marrying fresh out of HS or didn’t had a career they would be bitching for sure, but then at this point I think feminism is 90% about bitching, the rest might have some sort of purpose, YMMV.
Message received. I’ll have to think on this. Hope has weighed in, but if any other women here have successfully done this, I’d love to hear about it. I don’t have any personal experience with this. :-/
I’d hardly call myself an expert on Girl Game. since I really hate playing games with people. Nonetheless, I think a woman can and should do the following things if they are an honest representation of her feelings:
1. Say thank you. (Sounds like nothing, but it’s actually huge.)
2. Say she enjoys being with the guy, is having a good time with him.
3. Give honest compliments.
4. Reciprocate the cost of dates with small favors, gifts of food, handmade items, etc. (Bake a cake, knit a sweater.)
5. Give presents for occasions like birthdays and anniversaries (the latter only if it is not too cloying or desperate looking.)
6. Be physically affectionate in non-sexual ways (hold hands, place head on shoulders or chest, etc)
7. Small acts of consideration. Ever see Chaz Palmentieri’s A Bronx Tale? The young narrator is told by a mobster that the test of whether or not a woman is a keeper is if she leans over to unlock the driver’s side door after the guy lets her in on the passenger side.
IME, that’s the sort of thing that attracts guys who are looking for a wife or LTR.
Sadly, new methods will not work either.
Consider this, is everyone overlooking the shortcut to separating sheep from wolves in sheep clothing OR is the work of separating sheep from wolves in camo really, really difficult?
I would guess that latter . . . and comparing our current dating scene with the traditional dating scene I would say I have a little bit of evidence in my corner.
In other words reverse the clock or prepare to becoming the dating detective.
Chuck
CB – “In other words reverse the clock or prepare to becoming the dating detective.”
We are way past reversing the clock. I wish it wasn’t so, but short of some catastrophic scale event, I don’t see anything putting this genie back in the bottle.
Of course that isn’t to say something catastrophic won’t occur. But I have to admit that it is sad that I might actually welcome something like this JUST to be done with current Western Society. I’m not wishing for it, but if it happens, I might just welcome the opportunity for massive change.
I also am very interested in tornadoes. I’ve gone chasing before, and even though I know that what I’m chasing might very well kill somebody, I still welcome the chance to see something so awe inspiring. I would see a catastrophic event in the same light.
@ OffTheCuff
I’m not sure what to do either. If even the guys who I think have comparable SMV to me act as if I’m doing them a huge favor by dating them, what hope is there in dating an uglier guy? Perhaps his good game would manifest in him having higher confidence, but how ugly are we talking here? I’m a sucker for good looking men. I guess I need to make some kind of tradeoff between looks and game.
The more I date, the more I’m starting to realize that finding everything I want in a mate is near impossible.
@Ana, et al
I just saw and answered your DH and Einstein question on the 10 Reasons thread.
Herb:
“Marriage has long been a combination of complementary skills. What those skills are varies with time but egalitarian marriage is no labor specialization is rare. I’m tempted to say it’s a modern American experiment.”
Egalitarian couples outsource labor specialization to foreigners from traditional cultures. If their relation is successful they are traditional, but hide it from view and play up the egalitarian aspects in public. It’s not an experiment, it’s a charade.
I just saw and answered your DH and Einstein question on the 10 Reasons thread.
I saw it and answered too!!!
J May 23, 2012 at 3:56 pm
Message received. I’ll have to think on this. Hope has weighed in, but if any other women here have successfully done this, I’d love to hear about it. I don’t have any personal experience with this. :-/
I’d hardly call myself an expert on Girl Game. since I really hate playing games with people. Nonetheless, I think a woman can and should do the following things if they are an honest representation of her feelings:
My reply:
I did (and continue to do) all those things back to when I was dating the husband….
@Jon
No, that did not make you a jerk, that made you sensible.
I think this is really, really weird. Why go out together if you don’t want to be alone? Getting more public over more dates is a definite fail, IMO.
Was this woman determined to remain a virgin? What’s wrong with not stopping yourself from going all the way if you’re into her and not a player? Sounds to me like she threw a good one back.
@BroHamlet
Wow, that’s a great concept. I’ve always thought of femininity as a lure, but you’re confirming what Hope said and Dogsquat seconded, which is that femininity or vulnerability will filter in the good guys and filter out the bad.
I do worry about the sociopaths – for them that would be like blood in the water to a shark.
@Anacaona
Thanks for sharing your story, it was full of great suggestions!
SUsan said:
Grace is ultimately responsible for judging Brady’s character before she has sex with him, and if she makes a mistake, it’s 100% on her, right?
Confessing her feelings and saying what she wants (him) is showing her hand. That leaves her very, very vulnerable. If the guy wants a girlfriend, boom, happy ever after. If he is a cad, she’s just given him a roadmap to pump and dump. He can now prey upon her affection, take her on three daytime dates as modernguy suggested, and get it in.
________________________________
Direct question = direct answer:
Yes, Grace is responsible for judging the character of the people she allows into her life. Some mistakes will happen unless she is very, very lucky. I believe most men will be understanding about a (very) few of these. If it happens a bunch, though – start looking for the common denominator.
The advice part:
Yeah, it does give him a little “hand”. It also draws him out a little. Most dudes are not sociopaths, and most aren’t players. Most guys want a girl they can relax around – let their guard down and be real with. By signalling that she is interested and becoming vulnerable, most men will stop Gaming so hard and more of their real personality will peek out.
Unless, of course, they are sociopaths/hardcore players/sex addicts/whatever. That is a risk.
I could get shot by a gangbanger or a cop tomorrow, too, but I have determined that lugging around 40lbs of kevlar and ballistic armor would get in the way of my day to day activities. I’ve traded safety for functionality – and Kevlar ain’t perfect anyway.
It’s important to point out that the woman should not stop thinking/evaluating actions and affect once the confession is made. Just as I don’t walk around in certain neighborhoods stumbling drunk with money hanging out of my pockets, Grace should not suddenly view the Brode-Ster’s words as gospel truth.
She’s just attempting to make the situation a little more clear – like switching from a game of Battleship to a game of chess.
To all you gals reading this –
There’s something you ought to know:
If you use this tactic on a Red Pill type guy, he gets a little more real with you, and you find him unsuitable and move on/dump him – he will be much less likely to get real quickly with the next girl. You’re reinforcing the ugliest parts of the manosphere’s knowledge.
It’s like pollution – won’t affect you individually that much, and you need to do what’s best for your life, but you need to be cognizant of how your actions affect the broader environment.
Just sayin’.
@J
Thanks for that list. I’m getting a nice little treasure trove of suggestions now.
@Ana
I answered your answer. ;=)
Susan, on dealing with sociopaths, those men tend not to want to open up about their emotions. There is very low risk that a girl who intends to get the man to open up about his past and talk about deeper issues is going to catch a sociopath.
It’s actually easier to run into a sociopath by putting up emotional barriers and not seeking an emotional connection at all. He would be very aloof, outrageously confident, self-centered and needing high stimulation, so if the woman doesn’t go deep she won’t realize he’s sociopathic.
The whole idea I’ve been putting forth involves looking past the exciting, superficial charms which is the sociopath’s special domain, and looking for that deeper emotional connection which is what the good guy’s will have.
http://msmorphosis.com/7-warning-signs-you’re-dating-a-sociopath
@Dogsquat
Cosigned. It will never be possible to eliminate all risk from any human activity.
Fair point, but Hope is recommending Grace say this after spending very little time with Brady. It’s the dating that she misses, because she wants to get to know him. Perhaps she should express sincere interest in getting to know him better, confess her strong attraction, etc. There’s no way she could guarantee compatibility at that point, though.
The almost full-proof protection against sociopaths: don’t let someone play “victim” with you or guilt trip you into doing something. If a person never takes responsibility for his or her past, and it’s always someone else’s fault, that’s a huge red flag.
Sociopaths take advantage of other people by appealing to their sense of morality which they have none of, and by playing the victim role they rope you in and make you feel for them, while they feel nothing for you. They will lie compulsively and have no remorse about lying.
Again, going deep and probing into the past will reveal all these things. A sociopath can be charming and a good liar, but won’t be able to overcome his compulsion to make himself look grandiose and “never done wrong.” Same applies to women, too. If nothing is ever her fault, and it’s all on other people, and she’s never done anything wrong, run the other way.
@Hope
Wow, that’s a great point. It makes a lot of sense to test for emotional affect.
@ Sassy
” If even the guys who I think have comparable SMV to me act as if I’m doing them a huge favor by dating them, what hope is there in dating an uglier guy? Perhaps his good game would manifest in him having higher confidence, but how ugly are we talking here? I’m a sucker for good looking men. I guess I need to make some kind of tradeoff between looks and game.”
I personally learned that I have ‘minimums’ for characteristics and qualities women have for me to want to even be around them if considering them romantically/sexually. Once they meet those minimums I want to see how they go above and beyond those in their own individual ways. Its this way that I try and figure out what a woman ‘brings to the table’ and let her qualify herself. I don’t go through it mathematically like this at all, but learned I do this instinctively through introspection after taking the red pill.
But then, I view me approaching women like I do going into a store. I want to see the wares, pick a few up, try them out, and walk out with one that is mine to own. I imagine women view it much in the inverse. Men come in, might not have the goods to pay, might try and steal it, or pay less. They may use it a couple times and walk out without having ever having the intention to purchase it or try and weasel into returning the product after they’re done with it.
Mmmm, metaphors. Now the question is, what kind of store are you?
Reading Sassy’s story, sounds like when she says she wants a guy with 80% Alpha she really means 8%, because godDAM, even I wouldn’t do that stuff.
Maybe he just thought he was being smooth and romantic. I dunno.
“Yeah, it does give him a little “hand”. It also draws him out a little. Most dudes are not sociopaths, and most aren’t players. Most guys want a girl they can relax around – let their guard down and be real with. By signalling that she is interested and becoming vulnerable, most men will stop Gaming so hard and more of their real personality will peek out.”
+1
Any commitment escalation will be asking the guy to give hand. Any sexual escalation will be asking the girl to give hand. Which is why its important for most relationships that these happen simultaneously.
You CAN do it other ways. Such as having a hookup turn into a relationship or friends turning into a relationship. But the reality is that it is much, MUCH harder for one of the individuals to do so because they have no hand at all. Thus why women LOVE the “friends that become more” idea; because it gives them every iota of power over the relationship and they’re constantly able to either declare “She never thought of him that way and can’t” or “We were meant to be friends and this isn’t working” or some other bull.
Which is why men need to stop stop orbiting, stop bitching about her ‘leading them on’ when they gave commitment without any guarantee of romance. They’re as bad as the woman who bitches about a drunk hookup failing to turn into a relationship.
Susan, about Grace’s story. My take on it is that she missed the best window of opportunity, and now she’s likely to not be able generate the same kind of intensity and chemistry as when they first went on those dates.
Men move on a much faster time table than women. There is anecdotal and research-backed evidence, including from Helen Fisher, that men fall in love faster than women do. But she has to inspire that love early on with openness, intensity and reciprocity.
If she drags her feet too much, that makes the man second-guess as well, and so it’s a very delicate balance. I’d say two weeks to a month is probably the timeframe for the intense discovery phase. Men don’t like to be kept waiting for a long time unless they have no other options, or unless circumstances necessitate it.
I agree that the guy’s text game is weak, but the regular texting does indicate strong interest. In the beginning, I texted with my husband daily, but I would always turn it up a notch. I would send him links to various articles, ask him what he thought about different subjects, and turn it into something that he might think about more than just “how’s your day?” It was still within the realm of “being friendly,” but definitely above and beyond normal interactions between two neutral, disinterested parties.
If she prefers face-to-face interactions, she has to make that clear, and ideally the dates would be spaced relatively closely together, several times a week. The key is increased intensity so that a guy has no time to even think about other girls, because his thoughts are consumed by one girl. Helen Fisher talks about this as a characteristic of love — obsessive thoughts about one person. When she allows so much time to pass between interactions, whether face-to-face or digital conversations, the energy level and intensity will dissipate. So it is no surprise that at this point she’s not even all that interested anymore.
I’d say she should just chalk this one up to a failure and up her game next time.
@Hope
“If she drags her feet too much, that makes the man second-guess as well, and so it’s a very delicate balance”
And I’d like to add, that once the second-guessing starts…well…IME, you’re in a deeeeeeeeeeeep hole. It starts looking like that push-pull relationship that we all we know and hate.
Hey, everybody, I’m sorry for going off-topic (but then this is off-topic already). I’m going to be writing an article for Role/Reboot (Clarisse Thorn edits it) about online dating. Specifically, I’m going to make two profiles: one that’s completely honest (including mentioning my sluthood and feminist activism and pictures in which I dress in butchy clothing) and one that follows manosphere advice. I’m going to keep track of which one gets which responses and see if there are any interesting trends.
I want to give the manosphere as fair a shake as possible. I know the broad outlines of what I should do– feminine, non-slutty, with long hair and tasteful makeup– but I don’t know specific advice. What do you recommend? Both advice and links to posts are cool.
@ADBG
Arrggghhh, another example of why the alpha/beta dichotomy is so frustrating and hard to discuss! I’m with you though – if I read this correctly, they didn’t even kiss until the third date. In an era when alphas will kick you to the curb for not dropping panties on date three, this guy is clearly a horse of a different color
For the record:
The virgin ADBG (post red-pill, though) did NOT discuss his emotions every other second, escalated to 2nd base by Date Two, did not say he was self-conscious (even though you can be damn sure I was nervous as hell), did not compliment the girl for going out with him, and maybe said she was pretty once.
I mean, jeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzz.
This story makes it sound like Sassy wants a reasonably attractive smart guy that drives a motorcycle, has an artsy side, and likes to do his own thing.
That doesn’t seem extreme at all. Well, maybe the motorcycle part. Those things be dangerous.
@Susan
This.
Where a lot of women miscalculate and totally spoil it for themselves is when there’s a potential good thing going, and she starts to fall back into trying to play “hard to get” or trying to retroactively go in to coquette mode. That shit just doesn’t work with any dude with actual self-worth. I can tell you that in my mind, when she does this, I’m thinking, “Is this what I get for making this relationship possible? Peace!” There are two parties involved in creating a good relationship, and any woman who thinks the effort should come mostly from the male side to give her a relationship that she probably wants (and needs) more than he does, she’s going to be disappointed over and over, except with someone who she probably wouldn’t really be interested in.
Do Want!!!
If he were rich, well hung, and also the life of the party , I’d be in heaven.
What are we considering “well hung”?
@ozy
That experiment sounds hilarious. I hope you are going to do it at a mainstream site, not at Queer and Questioning or some such.
@ Sassy
I’ll be on the look out for any such unicorn men in Chicago and send them your way. Just be careful, they might cause your little corner of Ohio to implode.
Hipster love.
@Think Like A Man 318
Randians:) followers of Ann Rynd
that took a moment to click – seriously though I would like to think that even Randians need a moment to check if they want a marathon or a sprint ONR or 3 day NSA
“Not if she knows she just wants sex. Like Jayne above, sometimes women just want some “sexy time”.” True but even then doesn’t she need to see if this is an impulse or a mind altering rush of lust that will pass or maybe Randians do not think much they just act – have no point of reference – hence the knows herself – merely means is making a conscious decision
@BroHamlet
That’s good advice. I do want to make clear that I really don’t think Grace has done this. She’s not playing games, she’s just fed up with the late night texts and lack of follow through for a more substantial plan.
Personally, I’m still not at all sure this guy’s a catch. Since most people are guessing either asshole or clueless chump, I can’t imagine she is missing much. They just don’t sound compatible.
@ Leap of a Beta
Haha! Thanks.
@ A Definite Beta Guy
I like guys who are at least 7″(the sweet spot is between 7″ and 9″). It’s not for every woman, but I like it.
@ Susan Walsh
He was definitely a hipster of sorts, which I liked. I’m a sucker for a good looking male hipster.
Even if they don’t look like hipsters, I like men who have an appreciation of the arts in general.
@ Sassy
Curious, what do you think of most hipster guys? As a man I generally find them horribly effeminate for male company.
Which is ironical, because most of my long term friends view me as their token hipster friend with the long hair and making my living in the arts. Then they’re surprised by my words/actions, which amuses me to no end.
7.5% of men have a penis longer than 7 inches.
Not fooled, Oz. Your’e doing this… for a blog dedicated to people dissatisfied with gender roles. Conflict of interest, and we know your interests. This is like tobacco companies funding studies on the healthy effects of smoking.
@ Leap of a Beta
I definitely think a good chunk of hipster men are more effeminate than the average man, but I have met some who have been very masculine and dominant. I like the dominant ones more.
I was discussing my love of dominant men with my sister over the weekend, and I think I’ve finally pinpointed why I like them so much.
I consider myself a relatively dominant female/alpha female. I’ve described myself as somewhat of a wild horse in another thread. I’m not mean or masculine, but I am assertive and hard to tame with a healthy dose of confidence. Whenever I meet a man who is dominant in his surroundings/social group, my body instinctively takes on a more submissive role. It shocks me whenever it happens. I’ve met men who have suddenly made me want to be the most domestic housewife ever, simply from the aura emanating from them. It’s hard to explain.
Whenever I really like a guy, the chemistry is through the roof. Part of that chemistry stems from his ability to produce the giddy schoolgirl feeling within me. Suddenly, I want to cook for him. I want to fetch him slippers and give him a scotch when he enters the door. I want to cater to him. I did all the aforementioned things with the alpha ex that I have described often. He was masculine to the point of me being in awe of him, to an extent.
If I’m falling all over myself to be a dainty wilting flower around a guy, and feeling the desire to submit myself to him, I know that the attraction is real. It’s just rare for me to meet a man that elicits that response in me.
Herb:
“Women complain men expect that checking off something like the 10 vegetables list a post a go that we should just get sex from women looking for a “good guy”. They complain men don’t know they need to provide more specific to that woman and that a given woman might just not want them.
Yet, the low level, “hey, my N is low so I’m quality” (note one vegetable, not 10, not even 8 like V8) is the female counterpart. Being pleasant, willing to cook, will stand by me when things are tough, and other qualities make her a quality woman.
Low N is just a good start.”
———-
> You’re on the right track and this is why so many people end up with bad matches because their standards are so low.
If Grace is a non-promiscuous girl, then she doesn’t just screen out for cads (his values), but she needs to demonstrate her qualities to him and then screen for whether she’s what Brady wants and vice versa (compatibility).
I and some other posters already mentioned that she should have cut out the wishy washy/flaky behavior from the beginning (both hers and his). She doesn’t have to be a witch about it, but all of this guessing and playing around is unnecessary.
@ Sassy
Ok, glad my perceptions weren’t off on the hipster guys. I haven’t run into any dominant ones, but I haven’t looked hard for them like it sounds like you have.
As for your submissiveness….. Damn. Thats good stuff. I was on track to getting that with a current girl I’m dating, but suddenly she stopped being submissive and following my lead while also closing up shop on physicality and emotions for the last two weeks. She became a a cold, unattractive fortress that I have no desire to pursue. If it doesn’t change by the end of the week…..
NEXT
I think it’s hilarious that Zach and Jason can’t agree on Brady’s intentions. Seems like even hardened players can’t tell the difference between an Imposter Asshole and a True Cad.
Seriously though, if even you guys are disagreeing about something like this, what makes you think the average girl is more capable of this kind of discernment? *smh*
Lol, my sister dates hipsters and is always complaining about how they do too many drugs and are a-holes who sleep around. Have fun with that. This site focuses way too much on the stupid alpha beta crap.
Hope re: Girl Game
I’m interested in learning more about opening up through escalating emotionally. The problem is, I think most women who do open up find that they are emotionally investing as well, which can lead to irrational decision-making/hamsterwheeling if the guy turns out to be a rotten egg. : /
That being said I’m still interested in learning more about proper emotional escalation. I get that a girl’s gotta be soft and sweet, but there has to be more to it than that (e.g. you can’t just tell a supplicating guy to grow a spine, you gotta tell him to practice making eye-contact with others first). We need specifics on the behavior.
Add more comfort traits.
Hope, just read your post: http://www.rosehope.com/what-makes-men-fall-in-love/
This is exactly what I’m talking about. The pointer about talking about his past (his childhood, hurts and pains, etc.) was a very good one.
We need more pointers like that.
@ Hope, Ted D
Yes, technology will catapult you into an emotional connection quickly- both good and bad.
I know several couples who have ended up in serious but very rocky relationships because they couldn’t break the emotional bond but who are all wrong for each other and struggle for it.
If people are being sincere, then it works.
If they’re good at painting themselves differently than they truly are or if they’re bad at judging character from mere words- then it will work too- but then it falls apart.
An alternative might be to meet up for activities that allow for conversation, but aren’t as intimidating as having to sit face-to-face and also where there isn’t total privacy so that they can deter the level of physical escalation.
Men move on a much faster time table than women. There is anecdotal and research-backed evidence, including from Helen Fisher, that men fall in love faster than women do. But she has to inspire that love early on with openness, intensity and reciprocity.
Yeah is the answer to the female rule (supposedly) that a woman knows in five seconds if she will sleep with a guy she just met a man will know fast if the women falls into the slut pile or the relationship pile…dating is brutal it seems.
Not fooled, Oz. Your’e doing this… for a blog dedicated to people dissatisfied with gender roles.
Yeah I don’t see a conclusion that won’t end up in “Traditional gender roles suck!” if she makes an add selling how easy for sex she is, she will get a lot of responses just from guys desperate to “tap that” if the one with the more feminine traits gets answered the most it will a “proof that men are shallow and we need more feminism to teach them right.”
But I’m willing to give Ozy the benefit of the doubt. So Ozy tell us how do you plan to control for confirmation bias and what is the hypothesis in this “experiment”? share some details to see if this is actually worth helping or not.
“I think it’s hilarious that Zach and Jason can’t agree on Brady’s intentions. Seems like even hardened players can’t tell the difference between an Imposter Asshole and a True Cad.”
Come on, you know that we have a story filtered through several degrees of indirection. It’s not surprising there would be differences of opinions. If there’s additional info on the story, or we hear more from the guy himself, it might be apparent which choice it is.
An alternative might be to meet up for activities that allow for conversation, but aren’t as intimidating as having to sit face-to-face and also where there isn’t total privacy so that they can deter the level of physical escalation.
This reminds me of something like some form of ritual to get to know a person before investing on the wrong one too much….I’m probably imagining we surely wouldn’t had gotten rid of something so brilliantly simple to help with gender relationships.
Alias – I’m not saying text messages can or should replace actual face time. In my case, it allowed is to have more traditional fun in person and cover all the deep and heavy stuff when we weren’t together. I had my children to take care of and she had hers, so the ability to chat any time over text really helped us get to know each other.
And of course it only works of both people are being honest. But that isn’t any different in person. For me there is a lot of ground to cover from first date to commitment, and it allowed me to cover that ground in record time. I don’t like talking on the phone, but I like texting as a means of communicating while doing other things. It allows me to do something productive and carry on a conversation in a way phone calls can’t. Talking on the phone takes all my concentration. Texting doesn’t.
@ SayWhaat
“Add more comfort traits.”
I did. I consider myself currently fairly well calibrated, so I’m starting to consider that this girl is just emotionally and mentally ‘unavailable’ (by which I mean damaged).
For instance – when she got back from a week and a half trip to see her sis for her birthday I chilled with her. Asked basic questions, some light teasing, making sure to keep dominant body posture, tone of voice, but making it clear through my words and actions that it was good to have her back in town.
When I told her to “Get her cute ass over here” in a playful, dominant way to sit in her bed while we watch Game of Thrones, her not wearing pants, the literal words out of her mouth were, “You’re so clingy, like a 13 year old girl.” And not in a playful way, but in a very insulting manner.
Considering I hadn’t talked to her in the two days since she’d been back in town, hadn’t been fawning over her at all, haven’t opened up more emotionally than she has… In short, been fairly dominant/aloof physically and emotionally, I was blown away by this cold fortress suddenly saying texting a couple times a week and enjoying her next to me while watching TV was too clingy.
Like I said, I think the girl has issues. She’s on her way out.
We don’t need additional info. We have all the info that is currently being processed through Grace’s mind:
FACT: He has only texted to meet up after 11pm.
FACT: He continued this behavior over a few months.
FACT: He just ended a relationship.
HUS female regulars, or even just women who have keen insight into the male mind, would rightfully doubt Brady’s intentions given the above.
(However, those kind of women are a minority, are they not?
And even they have to ponder whether or not he’s an asshole or just clueless.)
Yeah, that’s weird. Drive on.
Had I been that girl, I would have loved you saying that to me.
Clearly, she is a bit odd.
I’d say cut your losses and drive on if her frigid demeanor doesn’t thaw out soon.
@ Anacaona, Hope
Congrats on the baby boys!
Anacaona
Yeah, I certainly can’t take credit for reinventing something old.
@Say Whaat
Steel on target!
Update on Grace and Brady:
Brady asked Grace if she wanted to meet for dinner tonight. She happily accepted. At 6:30 he texted this:
“Held up at work, don’t really know when I’ll be home. Why don’t you plan on swinging by much later.”
Grace is preparing to unload. She is done. She says that he is either a total dick or a total tool, and either way, she’s not interested.
“I think the reason people are being so mean is that they view it as a waste. For a ton of guys, if they spent their 20s with billions of dollars running one of the coolest companies in the world, they’d be converting that into strange, hot p*ssy every night of the week. It’s the ultimate demonstration of High Market Value, and so they feel he got handed the keys to the player kingdom and essentially said “no thanks”. That’s why guys are upset about it.”
But here’s the point Zach. A nerdy young man who with his brain power alone builds a multi-billion dollar business is of a different intellectual caliber and psychological makeup than a guy who doesn’t do so, or a guy who makes a billion bucks off of his body, like an athelete, or his street rhyming skills like a rapper. The priorities will obviously be different.
The bitter criticizers of this young lady’s looks are just disappointed that not all Asian women fit the preconceived notions of their fantasies and are actually, you know, real people with flaws just like the rest of us. They figure, “if a billionaire like El Zucko cannot manage to nab a hot babe, what hope have we?” Or worse, “if a billionaire like El Zucko can actually open his heart enough to fall in love and commit publicly to a woman who valued him before he was rich, then we are gonna be total gonners if we are ever lucky enough to have a woman so much as smile at us”.
@ SayWhaat and Sassy
Hah. Thanks for the back up. I left part way through that night, not staying over like I had intended to. Now, three days later, she’s already got the last initiation in communication from me when I asked her what she was doing tomorrow, telling her I wanted to celebrate getting two good jobs in Theatre for the fall by her putting on sexy underwear, a matching dress, and that I’d take her to Gino’s pizza, icecream, a walk on the beach, and wine. Goal of balancing the dominance of the first with some romance while making my intentions for the night clear.
Her response? “I can’t, I’m going with my married friends to Ohio the next day.”
Yeah. Definitely done.
Ted D:
“” I’m not saying text messages can or should replace actual face time. In my case, it allowed is to have more traditional fun in person and cover all the deep and heavy stuff when we weren’t together. I had my children to take care of and she had hers, so the ability to chat any time over text really helped us get to know each other.”
——
> Got it.
Ted D:
“And of course it only works of both people are being honest. But that isn’t any different in person. ”
——-
People can still be dishonest but in person you have more cues to go by (body language/tone of voice/facial expressions). If you meet them in their element, you get to watch how they interact with others. If you can get other people on your side to meet them too- more useful input- the more input the better.
Ted D:
“For me there is a lot of ground to cover from first date to commitment, and it allowed me to cover that ground in record time. I don’t like talking on the phone, but I like texting as a means of communicating while doing other things. It allows me to do something productive and carry on a conversation in a way phone calls can’t. Talking on the phone takes all my concentration. Texting doesn’t.”
———
There was no texting/internet when my husband and I met.
(hides under a rock)
@ Alias
“There was no texting/internet when my husband and I met.
(hides under a rock)”
Any dinosaurs under there? They’d likely have a thing to teach today’s men and women on how to communicate.
It seems like someone should set up Brady and Leap’s chick. They’ll be a match in flaky heaven.
@Hope,
“Lots of women walk around with their guards and walls up, and that’s not conducive to letting a man love her. I’ve known girls who don’t do much at all to inspire secret admirers, and they’re not always the 9s and 10s in looks. They all exude this loving aura and energy that men find irresistible.
The bitch shield for the super hot girls attracts player and non-serious types, while the sweetness and kindness attract men who are searching for love. The thing she has to do once she’s attracted the guys is get to know them better and not open her legs in the meanwhile. It’s a better strategy than shutting out the good guys and getting hit on by the most brazen and fearless players.
Another girl game tip; the “beta” stuff a lot of men do is what those men find very attractive if a cute girl was doing it. Take Sassy’s post for example. A man would find it adorable if the girl blushed during the kiss and said she was nervous, if she told him that she felt honored to be there with him, and that he was so good looking and made her feel uncertain.
The key to getting inside a man’s heart is softness, not hardness. In Eastern philosophy the water’s strength is in its flowing and ability to get inside small crevices and overwhelm. Emotions are compared to water, while logic and reason are compared to rock. You can’t beat a man into loving you, but you can use your warm softness to melt him. That’s the essence of girl game, not combat, manipulation or getting the upper hand.”
Wow. I wish I could force every woman to read this. EXCELLENT advice. IMO if the goal of “guy” game is to get laid, and “girl” game is to get commitment, just based on this post alone I’d put Hope up there as the female equivalent of Roissy or Roosh. THIS is how you get a guy to fall for you…
@ Sassy
“It seems like someone should set up Brady and Leap’s chick. They’ll be a match in flaky heaven.”
Hahaha. Laughed so hard I spilled coffee on the table when I gave it a good pounding, not thinking of the newly filled coffee cup I had just set down.
“1. Thou shalt cultivate a feminine demeanor and bearing. Thou shalt not try to be, look like, or act like a man.”
Here’s the thing. What has to be consciously cultivated is not natural. In default mode we humans act neither feminine nor masculine but rather just human. Think of human behaviour as a spectrum with behaviours traditionally considered masculine on one and the opposite feminine behaviours on the other. In our daily lives most of us fall in the middle and just carry on normally with our routines, waking, working, doing chores, relaxing etc. That’s why men are sometimes so surprised to hear women say “man up” or express more assertive, even aggressive behaviours. They don’t normally trend toward that end of the spectrum. Same with women. The problem with men and women consciously cultivating what are perceived to be more masculine or more feminine behaviours is that it can become burdensome to always be on alert for this. Most of us just want to be able to relax and be ourselves with a significant other, not always have to step up and game them or otherwise monitor our behaviour around them. In the beginning to attract someone I can see how this can be helpful but to have to consistently be conscious of acting a certain way for the rest of the relationship is not a relationship most of us would find rewarding. We want to be loved for who we are, all of us.
“And don’t forget the comments about hot babes being more selective and less likely to be promiscuous.”
“That’s straight from the evo psychology literature, not a matter of opinion. Just good old economics, really.”
Evo psychology is not hard science. Basically the perception is that exceptional women who have sex with exceptional men are somehow better than average women having sex with both average men and the occasional exceptional man that she can manage to bang.
Its a double standard between two different looking women, that’s all.
@Susan
Maybe we are all misjudging Brady, he clearly wants her…. late at night maybe he is a Cinderella vampire: only sparkles at midnight :p
That sounds like 100% Alpha and 0% Beta to me. She probably picked up on the latter and cut her losses.
That could be legit. I had to cancel a few dates earlier this year because I had to suddenly pack my bags and visit my dying grandfather in India. Just saying, you don’t really know.
Brady is a dick and a tool. Grace was right about him.
Now is the time to employ “radio silence.”
Btw Leap, I’m not saying you shouldn’t have cut your losses, either. I’m just pointing out some plausible things that could have happened. If she was really into you she would have suggested an alternate time to hang out after her trip to Ohio.
@ Think like a man
“They don’t normally trend toward that end of the spectrum. Same with women. The problem with men and women consciously cultivating what are perceived to be more masculine or more feminine behaviours is that it can become burdensome to always be on alert for this.”
Except that they naturally trend to be much more masculine or feminine than they currently are. Why do you think that, outside of the American Culture, the overwhelming majority of cultures have very similar gender roles to how they were in the US pre-feminism? And that, of the exceptions, the majority of them are found in cultures more heavily influenced by US culture?
Ask the majority of red pill men how they feel after making these masculine behaviors a part of themselves, their personalities, and how they react subconsciously. I’d bet the majority of them would say that it feels much better and more natural to be more dominant than they were nurtured to be by society. It takes hard, painful process to get there, but so far I feel much better for shrugging off what I was taught to be and instead be what I want to be.
A confidant, dominant, masculine, successful man.
Brady and Grace’s miscommunciations are a common criss-cross in male/female dealings. The best way to cut through it is to state one’s desires directly. Grace had 3 months to do this but she chose not too. I think her ultimatum of “either show more interest or show less” was rude, and if he is even the slightest bit sincere in wanting to really get to know her, might be hurtful as well.
What has she specifically done to show interest in Brady? There is nothing indicating that she did anything at all in what you’ve shared with us here. I think Brady should cut his losses and move on to a woman with a less priveleged mentality. To be fair she could be a perfectly humble person but nothing indicates that from the info we’ve been given here.
Actually, I take that bit about “radio silence” back.
She called him out once, she should call him out again and this time let it be known that she’s done. It’s not like she has anything to lose.
@ SayWhaat
Thanks for the perspective.
I’ve been the one initiating lately, so I’m done with that. If she wants to spend time with me, she can initiate and show actual desire rather than responsive desire when it suites her. I would be interested if she did so. But until then, I’m just going to consider her as having shelved herself into a LJBF zone in terms of how I’ll treat her.
“Except that they naturally trend to be much more masculine or feminine than they currently are. Why do you think that, outside of the American Culture, the overwhelming majority of cultures have very similar gender roles to how they were in the US pre-feminism?”
Explain exactly what you mean by this. In many countries that are percieved by us to have more defined gender roles, economically disadvantaged women are working construction jobs, carrying bricks on their heads while simultaneously menstruating or carrying a child in the womb, which is unheard of here. You will also find men employed in jobs that here would be perceived to be womens’ work, such as sewing and embroidery.
Leap of Beta:
“Any dinosaurs under there? They’d likely have a thing to teach today’s men and women on how to communicate.”
—-
Nah! They’re all dead!
Today’s men and women are simply a product of their environment.
Previous generations had the benefit of good old-fashioned- family/friends intergenerational dinner parties weekly; home-cooked food, soft music in the background, lots of conversation about different topics = lots of practice.
BTW, I’m 44.
“Ask the majority of red pill men how they feel after making these masculine behaviors a part of themselves, their personalities, and how they react subconsciously.”
If their blogs are anything to go by they are in constant dread that their woman or a future potential mate will dump them as soon as they default back into their natural behaviour. Most of us just want to be who we are and to be loved by somebody for it.
” you are anything but modern.”
As if its some sort of positive goal to achieve? Why? It does not benefit men in any way whatsoever.
This term, “modern,” is absolutely a social construct and invented solely by feminists and used solely by feminists as a tool to shame men to come around to the feminist way of thinking, albeit with no affect on men whatsoever, and it aint working here either. It has never been defined and no one will step up and define it on this site as well…go ahead, try. Therefore, it will be regarded as total bullshit going forward.
@ Think Like a Man
I don’t understand why you would use “economically disadvantaged women and men” as the norm. People will take whatever jobs they can to get a roof over their heads and food in their mouths, obviously. Hard labor is also usually unskilled, allowing the poor to take it as a necessary job. Same with the men entering skilled ‘feminized’ positions and competing for them to put food in front of their families mouths because they’d get paid more for the skilled labor.
Those behaviors aren’t born of ‘gender roles’ but of desperation and poverty.
Instead, look to the country’s upper class and middle class. What values do the upper class have in terms of gender roles, how does the middle class perceive/try to emulate them, how do they break those examples, and what ‘dream’ is sold to the middle class to keep them in line/working?
The idea is to see what is pushed on the society and what roles those people who have a choice choose to fill.
@Susan
““Held up at work, don’t really know when I’ll be home. Why don’t you plan on swinging by much later.”
What amazing arrogance! This proves that Brady is not a clueless beta. If he truly were interested all he had to say was “can we make it tomorrow instead?”
Good for Grace!
“I don’t understand why you would use “economically disadvantaged women and men” as the norm.”
Because they are the norm.
“Instead, look to the country’s upper class and middle class. ”
They are not “the norm” in the many countries I have in mind. I again ask you to define what the gender norms are.
@ Think like a man
“If their blogs are anything to go by they are in constant dread that their woman or a future potential mate will dump them as soon as they default back into their natural behaviour. Most of us just want to be who we are and to be loved by somebody for it.”
You’re again confusing behavior that is brought on by society (a man made social construct that is ANYTHING but natural) with natural behavior determined by genetics.
You want to behave in a way that is COMFORTABLE for you. Well, sorry but you won’t get sympathy from me. The world is not a comfortable place and we were sold a comfortable lie on how to behave. The men on blogging sites are not ‘afraid to get dumped’ if they revert back to previous uber-beta behavior, they simply know they will. That’s called threat assessment. Seeing the water is rising and learning how to both swim and build a boat.
To do otherwise is to simply ignore reality while bitching and moaning. Enjoy the water when it slips over your head.
But the manosphere bloggers feel confident, real, masculine, and assured in the personal growth once they’ve acquired it. They don’t pretend that a woman is anything other than a woman in preference for some romantic dream they were sold growing up. Men and women both are attracted to the reality over the lie and are happier for it.
Growth is not comfortable. It will not feel good to go through it. It will suck, be painful, and you’ll likely be miserable at several points during the process.
But it is good for you to grow.
“I have my limits on “N” also. How that number was achieved is important.”
Why is it important?
@ Think Like a man
“They are not “the norm” in the many countries I have in mind. I again ask you to define what the gender norms are.”
I just did. If you chose to ignore my definition, side step my reasoning, reframe the discussion, and in general behave like a troll, then that’s your choice. As such, I’m not going to further lengths to define it, but will simply copy and paste it again.
“What values do the upper class have in terms of gender roles, how does the middle class perceive/try to emulate them, how do they break those examples, and what ‘dream’ is sold to the middle class to keep them in line/working?
The idea is to see what is pushed on the society and what roles those people who have a choice choose to fill.”
@Susan
No, she definitely wasn’t a virgin (divorced single mom). I’m not sure what she was going on in her head, but it’s good to hear that someone else thinks something was weird about the situation.
OTC: Technically I’m writing an article for Role/Reboot, which isn’t a blog, it’s an online magazine.
And I do have honor; I will accurately report the responses I get, whichever way it works. Clarisse Thorn, who’ll be editing me, and I both have a history of admitting that PUA is right about some things (although she goes farther than I d0).
Ana: It’s less of a proper experiment and more of a “I’m curious what’s going to happen here”; I predict however that HUSite Me will get more messages but Honest Me will get more messages from the sort of people I actually like. I plan to report as accurately as possible my results: if it turns out that HUSite Me gets All The Boys and I got messaged by a dude that I’m kicking myself over not being able to date, I’ll report that too. (Hey, if nothing else, it’ll get Role/Reboot hella hits.)
I actually can correct for the “get messaged by tons of guys looking for sex” issue; since that’s my actual dating profile, I will go out on dates with them, and if they pump and dump me or use me as a fuckbuddy I’ll be aware of this. And you have my word that if it turns out Feminine Me gets deluged in messages, the only conclusion I will come to is “guys seem to prefer Feminine Me, which sucks because I’m not willing to be someone I’m not for a relationship; we can’t know if the cause is biology or society or both.” Because that is actually the accurate conclusion from this data!
“The idea is to see what is pushed on the society and what roles those people who have a choice choose to fill.”
I’m asking for specifics – what exactly is it that is pushed on which societies and what are those roles that people who have a choice choose to fill, across cultures?
Ozy, so you’re going to have 3 profiles? HUSite Me, Honest Me and Feminine Me?
“I’m not willing to be someone I’m not for a relationship”
Most people would rather not have to. Those who find someone with whom they can completely be themselves and be loved for it are fortunate.
@ThinkLikeaMan
This has the ring of a poignant truth.
re: Grace/Brady update
With all the retards like Brady and the “alpha” guy from the video in the other thread out there, I have to wonder why decent guys have such a hard time…
I think she was pretty clear about the no booty call thing. How does he respond? By basically saying “I can’t make dinner, how about a booty call instead?” So yeah, he’s either a tool or a dick – I’ve got no argument with that assessment.
Maggie has it right. A normal guy would have just tried to reschedule.
@Susan, 555
Can you explain what that means to me?
I can’t seem to puzzle out whether it is good or bad.
“I’m asking for specifics – what exactly is it that is pushed on which societies and what are those roles that people who have a choice choose to fill, across cultures?”
Asian cultures – Women are taught how to cook, maintain a household, be feminine, and appreciate the man who provides for his family. Men go and do the providing.
Spanish cultures – the same
African cultures – the same
Middle eastern cultures – the same
American Culture – You go grrrrrrl career girls taught she can provide for herself as much and better than a man. No cooking. No femininity. No maintenance of a household. They are not taught to appreciate any man willing to do these things for them, but instead treat them with disdain and be more than happy to divorce rape them. Men are taught that this happened because they didn’t prove their love well enough and that they should try harder to be more effeminate and in touch with their feelings. Life should all be one giant romantic comedy.
British culture – the same
Canadian Culture – the same
Considering that it is Western Culture trying to over-right the traditional family structure and gender roles that humanity evolved with, I don’t get why you’re finding this so hard to grasp. This has been the norm for the majority of humanity for the majority of our time spent on earth. Departures from this norm are rare and usually conditional based on environmental necessities such as you describe – like poverty. Others can be small, isolated conditions for individual tribes, communities, small countries, etc.
Sounds like Brady is trying to save face, actually. He thinks he essentially got bitched out, and now it seems like he’s giving in totally to her demands without anything in return, which is going to piss him off, because he’s a bit of a drama queen.
So he’s trying to push it back late again.
That’s my most reasonable guess.
Leap. Your girl. I would run away screaming. No worries, Chicago has lots of pretty girls, I just met one today.
Not better, just in a stronger market position to get commitment from the most desirable men. It is what it is. We can’t all be one percenters. Fretting over that is pointless and not conducive to happiness in life.
@SayWhaat
That’s exactly what I said. Give him an earful for disrespecting you. Again. Maybe she’ll leave him in better shape for the next girl, who knows.
I agree, there’s a lot of fear simmering just under the surface in the ‘sphere.
I also agree with your sense of what we all crave. Unconditional love. We may be willing to consider how to change so that someone will love us, but what we all really want is to be loved for who we are.
Hope is right on her list.
If you think about movies where it focuses on romance for men, the women have those qualities. They are bubbly, fun and supportive. They have a positive outlook that inspiries the male protagonist.
Movies like:
Elizabethtown, Garden State, etc.
“If you think about movies where it focuses on romance for men, the women have those qualities. They are bubbly, fun and supportive. They have a positive outlook that inspiries the male protagonist. ”
Movies are fantasy. Having to be bubbly, fun and positive all the day or otherwise risk losing your partner would be an unbearable burden to live with. It instills dread.
Movies are fantasy.
Definitely.
I was just saying that’s the ideal woman to a guy. Not that it’s reality.
Elizabethtown, Garden State, etc.
Interestingly enough those movies don’t sell as well as Rom-Coms I did loved Elizabethtown but is like The Fountain. I’m the only one of my friends that saw it
“I was just saying that’s the ideal woman to a guy. Not that it’s reality.”
If human civilization is to continue, we will have to grow up, accept each other for who we are and stop living inside our idealized fantasies. Externally assigned roles, fake voice pitches, games and dread are not the way to go.
Ozy: Are you going to take different pictures of yourself? One in the conservative style and one in the slutty style?
“This has been the norm for the majority of humanity for the majority of our time spent on earth. Departures from this norm are rare and usually conditional based on environmental necessities such as you describe – like poverty.”
The norm for the vast majority of historic humanity has been work. Hard work. A departure from that was available only for the aristocracy and small number of industrialized western women in a new thing called “middle class” post WWII.
1950s America has never been the global norm and still is not, and will likely never be.
“Interestingly enough those movies don’t sell as well as Rom-Coms I did loved Elizabethtown but is like The Fountain.”
Those movies were like a Rom-Com for both men and women. I think that type of movie is little more rare.
I loved Claire (Kirsten Dunst) in Elizabethtown. She really is the perfect woman. Her attitude alone made her so attractive. Always optimistic and encouraging.
I think she really defines the type of personality that men actually do fall in love with, it’s the female version of ‘Confidence’.
@Ozy
I don’t get it, if no matter the results you won’t change a thing about yourself, what is the point of doing the profile experiment?
Think Like A Man: HUS Me and Feminine Me are the same me.
I’m fairly butchtastic when left to my own devices.
GudEnuf: I’m going to take one dressed as myself (i.e. short boyish hair, glasses, baggy black shirt with webcomic joke on it) and one dressed as per HUS recommendations (my girlfriend’s realistic long-haired wig, a skirt/dress, tasteful makeup…?). Neither will be particularly slutty, except insofar as the really serious sluts all wear baggy black shirts with webcomic jokes on.
Ana: Partially for the article, and partially because I’m hella curious. (Which is also, incidentally, why lying about my results would be silly; it wouldn’t help satisfy my curiosity.) Would being feminine, non-slutty, and the rest of it get me more guys, or a higher caliber of guys, or guys who are more likely to subcommunicate a desire for a relationship?
“American Culture – You go grrrrrrl career girls taught she can provide for herself as much and better than a man. No cooking. No femininity. No maintenance of a household. They are not taught to appreciate any man willing to do these things for them, but instead treat them with disdain and be more than happy to divorce rape them. ”
You mean men cooking and maintaining the household for the woman, or for himself or for both or for the family? Cooking and maintaining one’s environment in a decent manner is what most people do upon reaching adulthood and moving out of our parents’ home. I don’t see any reason why this must be appreciated as if it were anything unique by either sex as its just what people do to survive.
If you mean cooking for the woman in the dating process, such as inviting her over to your place and treating her to a homecooked meal, that is a nice date and should be appreciated.
Ozy: That sounds like a great project. Kudos for having the courage!
Susan said:
“Fair point, but Hope is recommending Grace say this after spending very little time with Brady. It’s the dating that she misses, because she wants to get to know him. Perhaps she should express sincere interest in getting to know him better, confess her strong attraction, etc. There’s no way she could guarantee compatibility at that point, though.”
_______________________________
Calibration Is King
ADBG said:
“What are we considering “well hung”?”
__________________________________
When she says,”Give me ten inches and make it hurt,” fuck her twice and punch her in the face.
SayWhaat said:
“She called him out once, she should call him out again and this time let it be known that she’s done. It’s not like she has anything to lose.”
Susan said:
“That’s exactly what I said. Give him an earful for disrespecting you. Again. Maybe she’ll leave him in better shape for the next girl, who knows.”
____________________________________
I think she should make sure he’s not a victim of head trauma or hypoxic brain injury. I’ve seen some seriously dumb shit in my day, but this is a step beyond mere aggressive stupidity. This is either pathology or distilled essence of retard.
Maybe he’s a robot sent from the future to stop the spread of paying attention.
Is she sure that guy speaks English?
Think like a Man said:
“If their blogs are anything to go by they are in constant dread that their woman or a future potential mate will dump them as soon as they default back into their natural behaviour. Most of us just want to be who we are and to be loved by somebody for it.”
____________________________________
It’s not “their natural behavior”. What you’re seeing is a few guys trying to overcome some really, really shitty mental programming foisted on them at a formative age then compounded by evil/self-interested/deluded assholes in society at large.
Leap of a Beta gets it fuggin-ay correctamundo in his fine post #548.
The premise of the article is skewed…..
I.
“Very attractive women get a lot of attention from cads and players.”
- Very true. Attractive women ( men too) receive a lot of attention.
Physically attractive is in the minority and a “attractive” physically attractive person is even a smaller minority.
II.
“The highest value “target” is a super hot babe who isn’t promiscuous.”
Though I dont have a percentage – allow me to suggest this the single digit or even a fraction of 1 %.
A even smaller percentage is “attractive” physically attractive person who isn’t promiscuous….
III.
“By and large, though, the women with the highest sexual market value will demand commitment (of emotion or resources) in exchange for sex. ”
- This is a direct contradiction of II ( ie “super hot babe who isn’t promiscuous.”)
Couple of observations:
- If one isn’t currently a “high value target” – then the article doesn’t apply to you and if one hasn’t figured it out then……..
- If one is a “high value target” – then they are there for a pretty good reason know the discipline it takes along with the character, morals, integrity, values, self respect, upbringing and the article is of no value since it doesn’t address the factors what it took to become “high value target” and to stay that way.
No matter how much gold plating is done to a turd – it is still a turd. Gold plating adds no value and is deceptive at best.
Ozy, please be careful. If you lived anywhere near me I’d frog-march you down to the nearest Krav class and keep you there for six months before turning you loose.
I know I’m an uncool, fuddy-duddy capitalist for saying this, but I hope you keep an eye toward monetizing this. You’re going to be giving up an awful lot – permanently – if this little experiment gets popular. At least get paid for it – lots of other people will.
“I also agree with your sense of what we all crave. Unconditional love. We may be willing to consider how to change so that someone will love us, but what we all really want is to be loved for who we are.”
I think most people would be content with “clear conditional love”, meaning that as long as you do/are ABC and don’t get XYZ, there will be love.
My yoga teacher says that you can never promise to love somebody, only not to hurt the other. But even the second is a too high standard for most people.
“I think most people would be content with “clear conditional love”, meaning that as long as you do/are ABC and don’t get XYZ, there will be love.”
When commitment-minded people meet in the US, women are focused on male ABC and its been that way for centuries. The new trend for men, sadly, is having to expend effort to ferret out female XYZ.
@Anacaona
That’s funny – I laughingly suggested to Grace he might be a vampire. That’s about the only justification I can think of for his behavior.
@Lokland
I was just responding to TLAM’s comment re Zuckerberg. Here’s the first part:
I think he correctly identified why the manosphere has been so hard on the couple.
I was discussing this with a friend a couple of days ago. I suggested that neurosis is a luxury in a way. Or at least, catering to it is. We’ve got our physical needs totally met in the U.S. – an unthinkable standard of living for most of history. Even the poorest country in the world is healthier today than the healthiest country in 1810.
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo
Yeah, I’m curious for the epilogue on this one. AFAIK, he hasn’t actually explained himself or his behavior. Nor has he said what he’s looking for. She said she is going to simply ask him, “What is it that you want from me?” She can’t square his persistence with his apparent disinterest in actually spending time together.
How much interest is there when the effort is manifested by casual texts at a time when there’s likely nothing else going on in his life? Texts which won’t lead to any action, unless she takes it.
If all it takes is some thumb work–possibly while sitting on the toilet–or waiting for the coffee to heat, how does that show persistence in anything but a mild interest in keeping a low level of something or other going? At his choice of tempo and intensity.
If I were to text the local weatherman, ribbing him that it rained harder than he said or something, twice a day, that wouldn’t make me a budding meteorologist. It would mean I have little going on in my life.
Having said that….
Where does beta and pedestalization come from? Who started it? Who maintains it? What’s the point? Who corrects those who go alpha as assholes?
If it’s such a bad idea, why is it promoted to the extent that the red pill goes down so hard?
@Susan
Really, I thought 7″ was average.
Well, carry on then.
TLaM – “Having to be bubbly, fun and positive all the day or otherwise risk losing your partner would be an unbearable burden to live with. “
That is EXACTLY how I feel about the idea of having to “game” my SO/Wife every day of my life to keep her happy. I’m all for modifying my bad behaviors to minimize the loss of attraction, but I really see changing how I behave TO her as a deceitful attempt to manipulate her emotions. If I have to do that, then she doesn’t really want to be with me, she wants to be with someone that doesn’t exist. To me, there is a huge difference between learning about game theory and using that information to make better decisions, and using that same information to essentially swindle someone into bed or a relationship. I have no respect for anyone that has to use snake oil sales tactics to get what they want from a woman.
@Richard A
Exactly. I’m all for people meeting one another halfway, women initiating, etc. But anything more than an occasional text on Grace’s part is out of step with the level of effort he’s made.
@Ted D
Thank you.
If a woman are going to demand constant Game to get tingles to be in a relationship you’d better be perky all the damn time, honey.
Dogsquat
Youslayme!
Herb – “If a woman are going to demand constant Game to get tingles to be in a relationship you’d better be perky all the damn time, honey.”
Hell no! To me that isn’t even close. If I have to actively and constantly “game” a women, she better be bringing perky, bubbly, hot, sexy, sweet, nurturing, demure, charming, and enticing. She better look her best anytime she is with me. She will have to cook, and clean, and take care of shopping on her own time. She will need to always be in great physical shape. She must be sexual available to me at all times, and participate in all sexual activity with zeal and lustful exuberance. There will be no debate regarding any decisions to be made, because I will do what I want when I want without regard to her feelings on the matter.
the short version: If I have to game constantly, I expect a very specific product from my mate. Not a person, but a role to be filled. Because to me, gaming her is putting me in a role, and not seeing me for who I truly am.
Of course I’m not talking about inner game stuff. That is 100% my responsibility to resolve. I’m fully capable of fixing my own shit. I just don’t believe it is fair for someone to expect me to fix theirs as well, or even worse, find “game” to work my way past them. I truly understand that some of this stuff is simply natural wiring. I have the same issues though, and I’m managing to keep them in check. Every single man that remains monogamous is fighting their natural urge to sex up any number of women they see daily. For some that task is easy, for others it is a struggle. I expect that for women there are similar drives (hypergamy) and I don’t see why women cannot be responsible for handling that on their own as well. THAT is why I see promiscuity as a character flaw. Because a person of character lives their entire life by that integrity, not just the pieces that are easy to control. Sure, it is damn hard to resist natural urges, but that is exactly what builds character in a person.
But instead what we see in the ‘sphere is guys telling other guys how to “work the system” to get what they want. It is a band-aid at best, and deceitful manipulation at worst. They are promoting that instead of teaching women how to control their own desires and urges, that men simply utilize those to get what they want. To me it makes no difference if “what they want” is 100 bangs, or a single life long relationship. The fact is, if it was done using overt manipulation, it doesn’t matter if it was for the greater good or not. The ends does not justify the means, and at least to me the way something is done is often as important if not more important than the actual result. Personally I would never be proud of any success I achieved by such tactics. There is no pride in tricking people into doing what you want.
In the end man, I’ve felt most of my life that I didn’t really belong to the world at large. I don’t feel like I relate well to most people, and I struggle to understand why they do the things they do to themselves and each other. I really don’t feel like asking people to be a little self aware and responsible for their own behavior is too much to ask, but clearly the vast majority doesn’t agree. It doesn’t feel good to admit to yourself that you are flawed, and if it doesn’t feel good it just isn’t worth it for most people it seems.
Damn JM is much better at being an idealist…
@Hope
I like your girl game. Do you have any suggestions for this dilemma?
The guy I like is a “I get to know you by you sharing your emotions with me type”
I am a ” once I get to know you (trust), I share my emotions type”
How can we both be comfortable? The last time we were together I did emotionally escalate (didn’t know it at the time).
I can see gaming a really hot girl 24/7 because she’s hot and guys like to screw hot girls. It makes a sort of hedonistic sense, morality aside.
However, being in a marriage or even LTR that requires constant game does not make sense to me. One of the points of sticking with the same girl is that she is there for you when the inevitable lows come. If I have to go home after some wretched experience at work and not only pretend it never happened, but even flip that around and start gaming her the minute I walk in the door, sorry but, do not want. I’d rather be alone.
Because HUS is so often full of gloom some happiness (and a total tangent).
I walked to work on a fine spring day in Atlanta listening the Bach’s Second Brandenburg Concerto. As I walk my mind dissolved in three things: the fine spring day, one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written, and the fact that as I was listening in the warm sunlight two gold phonograph records were approaching the heliopause (the end of the sun’s influence in many way) and the first piece of music on those records was the very music playing in my headphones.
That, ladies and gentlemen, can be summed up in three words: life is good.
As we tear each other up over screwing our way to the ideal male while screwing them over let’s not forget that.
“Every single man that remains monogamous is fighting their natural urge to sex up any number of women they see daily. For some that task is easy, for others it is a struggle. I expect that for women there are similar drives (hypergamy) and I don’t see why women cannot be responsible for handling that on their own as well.”
Exactly.
I don’t find it all that difficult to suppress my own base-nature-indiscrimate horniness. I requires effort but it’s not really all that hard. I don’t think my wife has to work all that hard to suppress whatever hypergamous impulses she has either. So maybe we are lucky that way, probably.
However, that’s really the trick. She does not refrain from cheating simply because I am gaming her all the time, she actually also has good character. I’m sure there are times when she looks at me not at my best and is not in the least bit turned on.
Similarly, I don’t avoid cheating simply because she is always girl gaming me. Sometimes she is crabby, tired and looks like hell. I don’t use that as an excuse to go fuck other women.
Sassy, yeah I love feeling that way as you described around my man, and I also notice it is when he does dominance displays that I become more so. I’m generally fairly shy and quiet, but I do have a somewhat headstrong core as well.
Susan, I can’t say I’m surprised by the response. Like I said, both people’s “buying temperature” is very low at this point, so flakes are almost inevitable. I don’t believe it’s salvageable, but she shouldn’t be rude. They’re still coworkers, and letting it just cool off is the best course of action now.
@ Ted
“Every single man that remains monogamous is fighting their natural urge to sex up any number of women they see daily. For some that task is easy, for others it is a struggle. I expect that for women there are similar drives (hypergamy) and I don’t see why women cannot be responsible for handling that on their own as well.”
Yes. And usually they have checks to reinforce them making the right decision that are a part of cultural norms (shaming, marriage laws, etc). But right now there are many cultural and societal norms that ENCOURAGE them to not remain monogamous through no fault divorce, alimony, custody rights, and the baseline of blaming the man for ‘not being man enough’ to keep her around and feeling in love with him 24/7. Obviously he needs to man up.
Talking about how women should love us men unconditionally gets us no where. Ignoring these problems gets us no where. Blaming women gets us no where.
The question you should constantly ask yourself in life is what is in your power to make your own happiness. When it comes to women, this answer is learning game.
If you don’t like that answer, then you don’t like the reality of women in this world. Either don’t have them as a part of your life, put on your blinders and enjoy the women up to the moment of impact, or learn game and deal with the situation infront of you.
“The fact is, if it was done using overt manipulation, it doesn’t matter if it was for the greater good or not. The ends does not justify the means, and at least to me the way something is done is often as important if not more important than the actual result.”
Any time any human interacts with another in any real way besides the most monotonous ‘Hi’ as you pass each other on the street, there’s manipulation. It’s an interaction between two humans exchanging ideas, drives, emotions, thoughts, desires.
Why is that such a bad, evil thing to you? It’s called being human, having an opinion, a world view, and sharing it. Any interaction will show small parts of these things, or larger parts of them for larger interactions of more meaning. By doing so you’ll either repulse people from or draw people towards your worldview, your life, and your sphere of influence.
Being the ‘best man you can be’ is being an Alpha unafraid to share his world view because doing so improves his life and the life of those around him. He knows he’s a man of quality, of worth, and doesn’t shy away from sharing it with people he cares about or finds interesting if he thinks they’ll also improve his life as he improves theirs.
Hope I wrote you on your blog.
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