BEST EPISODE OF THE BEST SHOW ON TV
Girls Episode 7: Welcome to Bushwick, aka The Crackcident
Lena Dunham continues to hit it out of the park with her HBO hit Girls. The show is a heady mix of brilliant comedy and gritty emotional realism as experienced by coddled and helicoptered Millennials.
The best of the best:
K-I-S-S-I-N-G
Regular readers know I’ve been guilty of hoping for a happy ever after for Hannah and Adam. My wish came true this week, and it looks like they’re officially BF and GF, if only for a moment.
In Adam, Dunham has created a sympathetic villain. In prior episodes we’ve seen a narcissistic hedonist whose only feelings for Hannah appear to be sexual. The beauty of the writing is that Hannah is every bit as self-absorbed. She is more ruthless in her pursuit of a relationship with Adam than he is in his willingness to sex her up. More ruthless in fact – not only does Adam not text Hannah for sex, he is only intermittently responsive to her overtures.
While it’s been tempting, for me at least, to label Adam a douchebag who only wants one thing, this week Dunham exposed Hannah for her own lack of empathy and her objectification of Adam.
As the show opens, the Girls are arriving at a warehouse party in Bushwick. Though it’s packed with hundreds of young people, Jessa declares the crowd amateur, until she spies one particular guy dancing under a black light, surrounded by girls while throwing one over his shoulder.
Jessa: …although I do love a man who only hangs out with dykes. Look at them – they’re falling all over him like he owns a Home Depot.
Hannah: OK, that’s Adam.
Jessa: He does sort of look like the original man…
Hannah admits (once again) that Adam hasn’t replied to her texts in over two weeks, but sidles over to him in hopes of being seen. He does see her, immediately calling out to her and telling his friends, “You guys, that’s Hannah!”*
*This is our first clue that Hannah has some sort of significance in Adam’s life.
When Tako asks Hannah if she knows Adam through AA, she is surprised when Hannah is clueless, saying that she assumed anyone who knows Adam that well* would know about his alcoholism.
*Second clue.
Adam continues to tear up the dance floor, bopping around and being generally ridiculous, clearly having a great time. When Hannah finally does come over to say hi, he greets her warmly with a kiss and spends the rest of the party dancing with her.* (In keeping with his odd sensibilities, he shimmies behind her while shaking her cardigan up and down.)
*Third clue.
Though the party is still going strong, Adam invites Hannah to “come with” to the rail yard for scrap metal and they take off on his bike. When Hannah winds up getting thrown from the handlebars she becomes peevish with him.
Hannah: Tako told me that you’re an alcoholic.
Adam: I don’t drink, now.
Hannah: But you’re like in AA, that’s like a whole thing you never told me.
Adam: It’s been a part of my life since I was 17. It’s a big part of my life.
Hannah: …but you never told me!
Adam: You never asked!
Hannah: Was I supposed to fucking guess? Because you don’t really seem like you’re in recovery from much and I think you might be a sex addict.
Adam: You’re right, I may be.
Hannah: Again, that’s shit you should have shared!
Adam: You never asked! You never ask me anything besides “Does this feel OK?” or “Do you like my skirt?” or “How much is your rent?” I’m not gonna fucking talk your ear off about shit you don’t ask me about.
You don’t want to know me. You want to come over in the night and have me fuck the dogshit out of you then you want to leave and write about it in your diary. You don’t want to know me!
Hannah: Do you ever even think about me when I’m not there?
Adam: See?! …Look kid, I don’t know what you want from me. Do you want me to be your boyfriend? Is that it? Do you want me to be your fucking boyfriend?
Cut to cab ride with Hannah looking radiantly happy and satisfied.*
*Fourth and final clue.
Here’s what Dunham had to say about this development:
Although he hasn’t been very good to her, she hasn’t really made an effort to get to know him either. The relationship’s been very much about her and her own perception of herself. In a way, this is very cathartic for them. I loved that idea of, please for just one episode, seeing her overjoyed about what’s going on between them.
Although Hannah and Adam’s quirks are exaggerated for comic effect, the dynamic between them is quite typical. What’s more, many (if not most) of the relationships I’ve observed among people that age has followed a similar path.
Recently I was discussing this with a young woman who went to school with my kids. Nina hadn’t ever had sex casually in college, but recently she met Sam through her social circle. He let it be known that he was interested in her. She could feel him staring at her, could sense his nervousness and his attraction. She also knew that his two prior relationships had become established only after a period of hooking up without strings (as is typical).
She decided to go with it – to try hooking up and see where it would lead. From the start, her intention was to get into a relationship, though she didn’t voice this. They hooked up regularly for about a month, and came to be regarded as “together,” if not official. He told her that he really liked her and wanted to know if she felt the same. She said she did.
The following weekend Sam was friendly, but didn’t single Nina out for any particular attention. Things had obviously cooled off but she didn’t know why. He later told a mutual friend that he felt that things were heating up and he wanted to take a step back. Nina’s response to this was to call a halt – not by telling him, just by making it clear she was done, allowing their connection (and their history) to fade away. Within two weeks they were acting friendly again, as if nothing had ever happened between them.
In describing this, Nina voiced disappointment that her hookup experiment had been a failure. I pointed out that while it might have been doomed in any case, the truth is she pulled the plug after one month. He probably would have taken a break, come back to hook up again, and it wouldn’t have surprised me if at the two month mark they told each other, “I don’t want you f*cking anyone else” and Presto Change-o, official boyfriend and girlfriend!
It may be a back asswards way of connecting with someone, but it’s the norm. Lena Dunham is doing a great job, and a great service, in portraying the reality of relationships today.
ME-ME-ME
In this episode, Dunham strips away all pretense and shows Marnie for the entitled, selfish girl she is. Charlie’s band is playing at the party, and as Marnie arrives, she frets, “I just hope Charlie’s OK seeing me.” Wearing a dress that Dunham describes as being appropriate for a Bar Mitzvah rather than a hipster bash, Marnie watches Charlie’s band Questionable Goods as they’re finishing their set. She observes Charlie with an air of patronizing, wistful nostalgia before approaching him to say hi.
Charlie: It’s nice to see your face.
Marnie: Yeah, I thought it might be…All I ever wanted was for you to be able to find satisfaction outside of our relationship.
Moments later Marnie meets Charlie’s new girlfriend (Go Charlie!) and after pointing out that it’s only been two weeks, accuses him of being a sociopath. That cracked me up – after years of enduring being called “bitch” and “psycho” by exes, women finally have a rejoinder!
Marnie spends the rest of the party boring a bearded hipster to tears with her self-pity, and gets slapped in the face by Hannah’s gay ex after he calls her out on her selfishness and she tells him his singing voice sounds like a sack of crying babies.
Props to Dunham for giving Charlie a happy ending while letting Marnie stew in her narcissism. Scenes from next week show more of the same.
C-R-U-S-T-Y
Jessa’s embarrassingly horny employer shows up at the party with a bottle of wine and his Shogun hairdo only to embarrass himself terribly by dancing worse than Elaine from Seinfeld. If Jessa ever found him attractive, she doesn’t any more, so at least we’re spared the pain of seeing the old goat take his clothes off.
There’s a moment of growth for Jessa in this episode – after Jeff begs her to spend the night with him, she takes responsibility for her behavior and realizes how it would be not only pathetic but so very wrong to hook up with this man.
C-R-A-Z-Y
Shoshanna spends two hours alone at the party wearing an outfit that looks like she swiped it from a nursery school dress up box, complete with a two-finger rhinestone ring in the shape of a bow. She proceeds to inadvertently smoke crack (she thought it was pot) and goes completely loco. There’s a funny scene where Ray chases her all over Bushwick in an effort to keep her safe. When he catches her, her sequined skirt is gone and she’s wearing just Spanx. She attacks him in “self defense” and when she realizes her mistake, offers to make amends:
Last semester, I took a Sports Therapy class to meet jocks – it was mostly Indian girls – but I could massage you in a non-sexual way if you want…
Ray and Shosh have a moment, and I’m pretty sure it moved. Zosia Mamet is proving to be the most endearing character on the show, with her huge eyes darting nervously around every time she gets close to a guy.
Lena Dunham owns the topic of Millennial angst as part of the early 21st century zeitgeist. HBO executives were apparently surprised to learn that 60% of the show’s viewers are male. That in itself is a huge accomplishment; Girls may be written by a woman, but she’s got a great handle on what Boys are up against too.
{ 324 comments… read them below or add one }
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Well, going by the reactions, the females find Adam below average, and the males find Hannah below average. If we go by each sex’s reaction as metrics, I don’t see how fictional Hannah is batting way above her own league with fictional Adam?
Even among people of similar attractiveness, i.e. below average and not very attractive, the one who is less interested holds more power. That seems rather spot on to me.
@Ms. Hope:
“Well, going by the reactions, the females find Adam below average, and the males find Hannah below average. If we go by each sex’s reaction as metrics, I don’t see how fictional Hannah is batting way above her own league with fictional Adam?”
O: Ms. Hope, the issue, as I understand it by way of Chuck’s blog’s readers, etc et al, is that Dunham/Hannah is fat, and Adam is fit. Therefore, she’s punching above her figurative SMP “weight” and is seen by the aforementioned guys as being a bit unrealistic.
Again: I’d have to agree – IF – the issue is one of LTRs. If, on the other hand, its a Booty Call thing – which, is the nature of interaction between Dunham/Hannh and Adam, as I understand it – then yea, I can see that going down.
O.
I agree with Obs. The Hannah/Adam thing is a fuckbuddy sort of thing, so him slumming down a bit isn’t unheard of.
Of course, none of the “girls” in “Girls” are what any sane man would think of as real “LTR” material. Lena Dunham has captured an interesting snapshot of the city SWPL scene. These types of girls weren’t uncommon back in the mid to late 90′s either, when I’d go home to NYC from STEM Central, and before I became an “ExNewYorker”. They’d busily flitter around the city on their parents’ dime, from internship to internship, or whatever caught their attention for 6 months at a time…
@Jimmy Hendricks
True, but when TV, magazines, movies, and so on spend as much time telling women D&D geeks are attractive and they should get to know them as it tells me to date fat chicks we’ll talk.
Okay, I just looked up a picture of this Adam character, and ugh. He’s worse than I imagined lol. Guys really think he’s so much above Hannah?
@Obs
LOL on Dunham’s gettin’ it in. More like gettin’ on it. I am of the opinion that Adam is not out of her league, but whatever. My question is, “who cares?” She’s the creator, writer, director and lead actress. Presumably, she helped cast the show. She could have cast RPatz but she didn’t. Her target market was women, and they’re clearly buying it. I don’t recall guys getting all upset when Katherine Heigl had sex with Seth Rogen. Or Drew Barrymore and Jimmy Fallon, Ginnifer Goodwin and Justin Long, I could go on and on! I think we need to suspend disbelief and allow for idiosyncrasies in personal preferences. I’ve seen decent looking guys date girls who are beat – who can account for taste? Some guys are so invested in the “looks don’t matter if you have Game” idea that they enjoy nothing more than dissing Lena Dunham while claiming they could easily nail Marnie.
Pics or it didn’t happen!
Hannah is not obese. She’s chubby, yes. We know from her visit to the gyno that she weighs 145. If she’s around 5’5″, her ideal BMI range is 115-150. Why the hate? If a chubby girl can attract a fit guy what’s the problem? I’ve seen it with my own eyes more times than I can count.
Anyway, both sexes pay more attention to nice faces than hot bodies. From the Journal of Evolution and Human Behavior:
http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(09)00058-0/abstract
I think what’s really going on here is that men are pissed off women overall are getting less attractive. I understand that. My advice to women is to get and stay fit to enjoy a tremendous competitive advantage.
It is interesting to me that guys in the manosphere seem to like to glorify the male characters on the show, but James Franco had this to say:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-franco/girls-hbo-lena-dunham_b_1556078.html
Now, a famous and successful actor is probably not going to find any of these characters very relatable, but it does rather show that these male characters aren’t all that attractive. I haven’t watched the show, but going by the synopsis and reactions, manosphere guys are on some serious trip if they think that Adam deserves a stereotypically hot Hollywood girl.
@Ms. Hope:
“Okay, I just looked up a picture of this Adam character, and ugh. He’s worse than I imagined lol. Guys really think he’s so much above Hannah?”
O: The guys who comment on Chuck’s Ferd’s and Half Sigma’s blogs certainly think so (my guess would be that this is the case at Roissy/Heartiste’s blog as well)…
O.
OK, it’s time to put an end to this ridiculousness:
Adam Driver
Lena Dunham
Let’s get real, people.
@Obs
BTW, I know you better than you think I do. I know exactly what you’re up to here, so I’ll just cut to the chase. You want us to independently come up with the observation that the commenters at those blogs couldn’t attract Dunham if their life depended on it. I don’t doubt it for a minute.
You wait – for all the talk that guys care only about looks, Lena Dunham is going to date some very hot guys in the next year or two.
@Ms. Walsh:
“LOL on Dunham’s gettin’ it in. More like gettin’ on it.”
O: Tru dat – LOL!
“I am of the opinion that Adam is not out of her league, but whatever. My question is, “who cares?” She’s the creator, writer, director and lead actress. Presumably, she helped cast the show. She could have cast RPatz but she didn’t. Her target market was women, and they’re clearly buying it. I don’t recall guys getting all upset when Katherine Heigl had sex with Seth Rogen. Or Drew Barrymore and Jimmy Fallon, Ginnifer Goodwin and Justin Long, I could go on and on!”
O: Well, in all fairness Ms. Walsh – it was you after all, who made it a point to note that the show was clearly striking a raw nerve with guys. I think this will probably play a role in how things go in the future development of the show, unless Dunham doesn’t care about that, which is possible. As for the oscreen couples you mentioned, the only one I just couldn’t see happening in real time was the Heigl (the new Catwoman!) getting with Rogen – just don’t see it.
“I think we need to suspend disbelief and allow for idiosyncrasies in personal preferences. I’ve seen decent looking guys date girls who are beat – who can account for taste?”
O: I don’t mean to speak ill of the departed, but the Edwards’ do come to mind – as do the Clintons…
“Some guys are so invested in the “looks don’t matter if you have Game” idea that they enjoy nothing more than dissing Lena Dunham while claiming they could easily nail Marnie.
Pics or it didn’t happen!”
O: LOL, I know what you mean, and for the record – in case Ms. Anacaona is reading along – this is NOT what Mystery, nor Style, say AT ALL in their works. Yea, looks matter more to Men than to Women, and yea, Men have more to play around with due to what Women find desirable than the other way around; still in all, a Man’s looks DO COUNT. Any guy who purports to discuss Game and doesn’t mention this fact, is in fact, fakin’ the funk with a nasty dunk.
O.
@Ms. Walsh:
“BTW, I know you better than you think I do. I know exactly what you’re up to here, so I’ll just cut to the chase. You want us to independently come up with the observation that the commenters at those blogs couldn’t attract Dunham if their life depended on it. I don’t doubt it for a minute.”
O: Chesire Cat grin…
“You wait – for all the talk that guys care only about looks, Lena Dunham is going to date some very hot guys in the next year or two.”
O: Well, if what Buss has to say about these things has any truth to them, yea, Dunham will be able to parlay her SMP value – a good bit of which will be in the form of social and financial resources – into at the very least, an audition with the Hot Boys. Most Women of her same “rank” on the attractiveness scale won’t be able to do that, but yea, she will. At least in theory.
We’ll see…
O.
@Ms. Hope:
With all due respect, James Franco’s remarks have about as much utility as Ms. Walsh’s assessment of Dunham’s looks per the attractiveness scale – most guys wouldn’t agree with her, and it remains to be seen whether most Women will agree with what Franco’s had to say.
I think what chaps a lot of people’s hides is that it is the opposite sex who determines who, and what, is or is not desirable about said opposite sex.
Such is life.
O.
@Ms. Walsh:
“Hannah is not obese. She’s chubby, yes. We know from her visit to the gyno that she weighs 145. If she’s around 5’5″, her ideal BMI range is 115-150. Why the hate? If a chubby girl can attract a fit guy what’s the problem? I’ve seen it with my own eyes more times than I can count.”
O: Oh, come on now Ms. Walsh; don’t be so coy. We both know what the problem is here, at least insofar as the Chuck’s commenters/Ferd’s commenters/Half Sigma’s commenters are concerned – the problem is that they are royally pissed off that they can’t get any action while gals like Hannah/Dunham can. And, despite their reprehensible ways, they kinda do have a point – you even had to admit that there is no empirical evidence that Women will flock to the Betas of the world. Simply put, these are the guys who are involunarily celibate – which is a fate worse than death to Men. Real Rap.
“Anyway, both sexes pay more attention to nice faces than hot bodies. From the Journal of Evolution and Human Behavior:”
Thanks! I’m definitely going to look into that…but in the meantime, what I will say, is that I’ve found that Black Women tend to place more emphasis on “Male eye candy” than do White or Asian Women, in my humble experience. What say you about it?
“I think what’s really going on here is that men are pissed off women overall are getting less attractive. I understand that. My advice to women is to get and stay fit to enjoy a tremendous competitive advantage.”
O: Oh, make no mistake, it IS that – but it’s ALSO the fact that Women can let themselves go, AND STILL GET LAID WITH GUYS WHO ARE FIT. Unlike the Rogen/Heigl pairing, this is happening in real time and in real life – hence what you said about the Girls stats in terms of its male viewership. I just don’t think it’s a good thing to have a society full of guys seething about things like this, Ms. Walsh. Hard to see what good can come of it.
O.
@Obs
No, I hadn’t heard that at all. The guys here like the show, and the guys I know like the show. Your link to GLP was my first inkling that the sphere is bitching about it.
They do, of course they do. That said, you are correct – men have more wiggle room. In fact, Adam’s character is significantly more attractive on the show than these heinous pics would imply. I would note that he has become more attractive to the female audience as we have been given glimpses of his humanity, potential vulnerability, etc. It’s not unlike the 50 Shades formula. And why should it be? That’s what women want. Adam is much more appealing as a bf than he is as a douchebag.
@Obs
Eh, we’re up against it with the terminology again. I really do think Vox Day has the best available definition:
http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2011/03/socio-sexual-hierarchy.html
Two categories just isn’t enough to capture the diversity in the pool of males.
You’re right about that. It’s an intractable problem – Game is the tool, but you’ve said that few men will be able to really deploy it…
@Ms. Walsh:
“No, I hadn’t heard that at all. The guys here like the show, and the guys I know like the show. Your link to GLP was my first inkling that the sphere is bitching about it.”
O: Let me rephrase – what I meant by “raw nerve” was that guys clearly identified with what Dunham’s show was trying to say.
“They do, of course they do. That said, you are correct – men have more wiggle room. In fact, Adam’s character is significantly more attractive on the show than these heinous pics would imply. I would note that he has become more attractive to the female audience as we have been given glimpses of his humanity, potential vulnerability, etc. It’s not unlike the 50 Shades formula. And why should it be? That’s what women want. Adam is much more appealing as a bf than he is as a douchebag.”
O: Yes, what you said in your Fifty Shades post, per Ogas, etc, made perfect sense to me – lots of Women want a “hard” guy who is EMOTIONALLY ACCESSIBLE TO THEM ALONE. May sound incomprehensible to guys, but then, there are quite a few things that, to a Woman’s mind, don’t make any sense at all insofar as Men are concerned. I think that’s fair to say – yes?
I think we all owe Prof. Dave Buss a huge debt of gratitude for his groundbreaking work. If any Man wants to know exactly what the vast majority of Women want in a Man, all they need do is pickup The Evolution of Desire; it’s all right there, in black and white…
O.
@Obs
Cosign re Buss. I read his book again this past weekend. He’s the god of Evo Psych. In fact, there’s a new study out about the evolution of pair bonding that’s pretty interesting, but he expressed reservations about it. If I write about it I’ll mention that – interesting but by no means cast in stone (not that social science ever is).
@Ms. Walsh:
“Eh, we’re up against it with the terminology again. I really do think Vox Day has the best available definition:”
O: Yea, I’ve read his take on things; I think he has ideological issues with the Seduction Community and wants to change the rules to better suit him and others who think as he does. I think what Buss and others have had to say on these matters, however reductionistic they may be, pretty much hits the target. In its most simplistic terms, Men are divided into two camps, and yes, they can overlap, but the point is made – and – here’s the kicker –
These two camps are how Women see, and desire, things.
“You’re right about that. It’s an intractable problem – Game is the tool, but you’ve said that few men will be able to really deploy it…”
O: Yes, and I hold to that view, for a number of reasons. I think many guys are having a very difficult time adjusting to what amounts to an unfettered/deregulated sexual market – meaning, that Women have more choice than ever as to who they do and don’t have sex/relationships with. As Buss has rightly noted, let’s face it, Men have indeed controlled Women’s sexuality, no matter how legitimate the reasons for it were. Now, that control, is perhaps at its nadir, and that means, in a very real sense, that lots of guys are going to be shut completely out of mating – as is the case with so many male mammals out in the wild. Men are living longer, and they are no longer ignorant about these things – as you’ve often said, Game has gone mainstream – and as the Manosphere clearly shows, they are bitterly pissed off about it. I’m not trying to come off as alarmist, and I’ve made my disagreement with these guys very well known – but, if I’m going to be intellectually honest, I have to say, with all due respect, that I just don’t see a heck of a lot of evidence that Women in toto, take these concerns that these guys have seriously. To the minds of many Women, Men continue to enjoy themselves, often at their (Women’s) expense; they either can’t, or won’t see the very real bifurcation among the haves Men and have-nots Men, in a sociosexual sense. And if they do see it at all, they see it as a monumental and independent failing on the Men’s part.
Like I said, it is hard to see a happy ending in all this, and perhaps Dunham will tackle this aspect in future episodes…
O.
@Ms. Walsh:
“Cosign re Buss. I read his book again this past weekend. He’s the god of Evo Psych. In fact, there’s a new study out about the evolution of pair bonding that’s pretty interesting, but he expressed reservations about it. If I write about it I’ll mention that – interesting but by no means cast in stone (not that social science ever is).”
O: Yes, I would be very interested in seeing that study, and Buss’ views about/on it. In the meantime, since you bring up longterm pairbonding, earlier today I wrote a commentary on the topic as it relates to Black America over at Very Smart Brothas (BTW, I’ve been bigging you up over there something fierce, because, let’s face it – if ANYBODY NEEDS a Hooking Up Smart, it’s BLACK WOMEN. And since, for whatever reason, Sistas ain’t getting it done, you’re the next best thing – and I mean that with all sincerity, love and respect…):
““I love it when a plan comes together…”
-Hannibal, “The A-Team”
Good morning mr champ, everyone.
Roll tape, imma kill this one…
It seems that the black pop-cultural zeigeist has finally caught with the o-man, for i have labored long and hard in the field of red pill-laden truth; the video you reviewed, however flawed it may be, has nevertheless served a vitally important function in the neverending melodramatic “debate” about black male/female relationships.
Why? Because it pulls the covers off of so many pretty little lies that so many black people have so heavily invested themselves in.
Lets count the ways, shall we?
Myth #1: that there is an “eligible black man shortage”
Fact: as prof dave buss says so eloquently in his “the evolution of desire”, there will ALWAYS be a shortage of desirable mates-and thats true for men AND women. And this will be true no matter where you go on the planet, and this will be true no matter what timeframe historically you want to choose. As another very astute commenter noted above, per us census data, the numbers of available black men to black women aint that skewed. The problem, of course, is our embarrassing levels of ignorance when it comes to stuff that actually matters-like how we are going to keep the race going. The problem is that of, in this case, black womens evolved sexual psychology-otherwise known as hypergamy, among other things. There are plenty of black men around-just enough of the kinds that many black women want-and in an age where no woman regardless of color, needs a man in order to survive, many black women can and will say no thanks to the notion of settling for the best they can get on the open sexual market. That is of course their right but it opens a heck of a lot of cans of worms in its own right-if we but understood evolution, we would know this man…
Myth#2: there are way too many educated sistas to brothas
Fact: again, per the us census, the ration aint that skewed at all: the truth of the matter is that there are way more sistas and brothas who dont have degrees at all (and manage to make whoopee and bring on the next generation i might add), and if we’re gonna do the handwringing thing at all, it should be over that; of course, this is yet another pretty lie some sistas use to explain why their smp value is so relatively limited. But that doesnt answer…
Myth#3: black men are single because there are so many more black women to choose from
Fact: as is true anywhere there exists an unfettered sexual market, the truth is that only a small number of black men are living the single life of riley; the vast majority of single black men do what all single men down through the ages did:
Work it out with the left hand.
Now-why is that, you ask?
Simple: because women-in this case black women-are the ones who select which males will get to mate, and which ones will not-and this is true throughout the animal kingdom. In fact it is not at unusual for entire cohorts of male animals to be left entirely out of the nookie party, consigned to bachelorhood forever. So, yes, i am saying that the subjects of todays discussion, based on the video you presented champ, are broadcasting loud and clear, that…
Wait for it…
THEY. HAVE. NO. GAME.
Which brings us to the next black shibboleth bunker busting brutal truth:
Myth#4: that black men, in toto, have a a superios suite of seduction skills.
Fact: i think ill let the ladies of this august forum opine and testify to this one…
Myth#5: that men benefit more from marriage/ltrs than do women
Fact: take a walk through any neighborhood that has a street with the name “martin luther king” in it and you tell me if the hundreds of thousands of single sistas there are doing so amazingly well. Theres a reason why human beings have evolved a preference for longterm pairbonding-because it has proven to have immense bennies for BOTH men AND women. That we have women in our time-black ones no less-actually drinking the koolaid on this only tells you just how gulliable we black folk can truly be. A woman who is able to secure the longterm investment of a male-emotional, financial, social, etc et al-has a decided advantage over the woman who has failed in this regard. To even have to spell this out in this day and age is to flirt with a theatre of the absurd.
Similarly, marriage/ltrs confers tremendous bennies onto black men as well-as another very astute vsb commenter points out. The data is in my brothas: married or otherwise booed up men make more moolah than their single brothas who for whatever reason are bachelors. Simply put, youre taken more seriously when you have announced to the world that you have fosaken all others and cleaved to that special lady. Nope-education, skills, age, experience, dont have jack spit to do with it-you are not seen as a man until youve either put a ring on it or failing that, you have a defacto wifey that EVERYONE KNOWS AS SUCH. This is on of the deeply profound reasons why we, as black men, are not taken seriously by anyone; because we continue to act like boys.
The truths of game and its close cousin, evolutionary psychology, are very real-not only that, there are entire online forums where white people discuss this stuff with deadly “i aint no joke” seriousness. I just mentioned one such place last week: hooking up smart. VSB would do well to take a page outta their book.
The fate of our race vitally depends on it.
Now adjourn your arses…
O.”
http://verysmartbrothas.com/a-second-by-second-breakdown-of-qualified-yet-single-why-good-black-men-remain-single/#comments
Adam actor has a nerdy face, specially in the second pic me likes it
. I can only imagine he is really good if he can sell the asshole so well, he looks more like Paul from Wonder Years (who I loved) than an Alpha, YMMV.
Lena is not ugly but that tat is truly hideous.
“You’re right about that. It’s an intractable problem – Game is the tool, but you’ve said that few men will be able to really deploy it…”
Game is the tool for the individual male to navigate this society.
Think about it:
You’re giving guys tools to live comfortably WITHOUT women in their emotional lives, while giving them the tools to seduce women much more quickly.
You really expect that’s going to result in more life-long monogamous commitments that we think are the foundation to a stable society? Hell, the guys here are telling you that most girls in our age group are just not marriageable, period. That means you’re missing out on half the equation.
@Obs
I’d estimate that 98% of young women share this view. To say that we’ve got a long way to go is an understatement.
@Obs
I do believe I’ve gotten some great regular readers from VSB and also from the Paul Carrick Brunson piece. Thanks for suggesting HUS there.
@Anacaona
I loved Wonder Years, and Paul was adorable. I agree that there is a resemblance! As I’ve said, Adam (the character) is growing on me. There was a scene this week where I thought he looked hot. But I do think any discussion of his being way too hot for Hannah are rather ridiculous. BTW, the first pic of Lena Dunham is as character Hannah – the second is her out and about in NYC. Big difference in makeup and general attractiveness.
In the first episode Adam asks Hannah why she got those tats, and she says she did it when she put on a bunch of weight, to feel in control of her body again. He responds that she’s not all that fat anymore, so she should have them lasered off. Dunham pokes fun at herself in every conceivable way. BTW, that tat is Ferdinand the bull. Apparently, all her tats are of children’s books.
@Susan
Maybe the word is too dominant for Hannah if he could pull a hotter chick with his level of “tingle” inducing moves/behaviors.
I think the way guys picture it is that a guy can pull a girl according to his level of Alphaness/Assholess/Dominance so a guy like Adam could pull a hotter one so he would be doing that or at least managing a soft harem. But then I think we probably going to have a push coming after the pull and we find out exactly that he is having more FWB or a soft harem or something along those lines. The “I might be addicted to sex” I think is a Chekhov gun, and is going to get fired up soon, YMMV.
@SW
If one defines “beta” disparagingly, then of course there will never be any statistical evidence that women prefer guys like. That’s just an exercise in working backwards from the conclusion to the premise. Not to beat a dead horse, but looking at which guys women choose to marry (and not divorce) gives a pretty good idea. Call them “beta”, call them ordinary or boring, call them dependable, call them whatever. I call them the best candidates for the job. And I’m not sure they necessarily all have “tight game”. Note what characteristics they tend to have, and there’s the answer to the question of which guys women prefer for long-term commitment. The “why” is self-explanatory.
By the way, Mr. Obsidian gave the hippest summary of the benefits of marriage I’ve ever seen : )
I think part of the reason some guys are saying Adam is above Hanna in SMV is they’re projecting male-attraction on a man …
Essentially, both men and women are attracted to potential partners based on physical, social and personality attributes with different weightings. In general I would say men judge women based on 40% physical, 40% personality, and 20% social while women tend to judge men based on 40% social, 40% personality and 20% physical; and (of course) different men and women will have different weightings.
Adam is more fit, and therefore could be argued to be more physically attractive by male standards, but with how much less emphasis women put on this it doesn’t really increase his SMV.
This revealed preference argument is invalid, since (among other things) it takes no account of the size of the relevant groups. If it were true one could also conclude that women prefer to marry men less than six feet tall who earn less than $100,000 a year. I explained this several times in another thread and asked you specifically about these counterexamples. To date I have not seen a reply.
Actually, I did reply, sort of. Never heard back, and lost interest. Anyway, women don’t have absolute height and income preferences. They’re of relative importance. Choosing a marriage partner isn’t like picking fruit in the grocery store. People tend to put a lot more thought into the decision.
@Megaman
This is the crux of the matter, and we’re never going to solve this problem. To many men (note: not women) saying women like betas is likely trying to convince them every girl dreams of marrying a leper. They feel patronized and mocked.
Meanwhile, when you step outside Game and look at the news, you’ll see a study explaining how women evolved to prefer beta males. Not to settle for them – to prefer them.
It makes my job very difficult sometimes, even though I’m writing for women, not men.
@Thras, @Megaman
I agree that the revealed preference argument is invalid. The question is, how do those women feel about their mates? Are they in love? Or are they settling, because the guy they really want doesn’t give them the time of day?
This addresses whether attraction factors are malleable (research suggests they are), as well as any given woman’s set of attraction triggers. My guess is that a minority of women are not passionate about their partners, while the vast majority are in love when they marry, regardless of who else is out there and who else they never would have had a chance with.
As Helen Fisher said, “We’re not built for happiness, we’re built for reproduction. The happiness we find, we make.”
From Hope
From Susan
Are guys getting that upset about this?
I have not read all the comments, but I am aware of what I contributed, and I was curious about Hannah’s rating much more than I was about Adams.
And, I know that this was not your point, but females through a shitstorm when Heigl’s character had sex with Rogen’s.
Granted, I didn’t think that movie stayed as close to realism as 40 Year Old Virgin had.
That’s what’s so cute about men in the sphere. They can have standards about women’s appearance, and what they prefer in women, but as soon as a woman has some standards about what she looks for in a man,”She dates cads!!!”
You don’t hear women in the sphere shouting,”You like fake looking sluts!” or whatever women say about hot women whenever men state what they like. Let women weigh in. That guy is fucking ugly as hell, and he’s dating out of his league, even by dating a chick on the chubby side. The end.
As I have said before: if “Game” was the end all and be all of getting hot chicks, then the Maxim Hot 100 would all be dating Mystery, Style and the rest of them. Instead, they are dating untalented musicians (it does seem that the more talented you are, the less likely you are to bang one of those girls).
(One, BMI is not THAT helpful, though, it is not completely useless)
The hate exists because of what she represents. She did not grow up on food stamps, and she does not have an eating disorder, yet, at her tender age she is already overweight.
What does she care more about: Boys and Babies, or Bagels?
Sexual Attraction is extremely important in Western SMP (and most others as well). This has been known forever. At the height of Political Correctness, Cosmo and all the rest were still printing tons of articles on how to lose weight and diet pill companies were doing just fine. And, of course, the female stars that girls love have always been thin.
Still, it is probably a little mean to “hate” on Lena for being overweight. Although, it is probably a little mean to hate on girls for being a little slutty as well.
Right. Girls hate supplicating betas and guys hate fat chicks.
Again, who was getting unreal (again, I have not read every comment)?
As far as I can tell, I was the on who started this and I have already said, I could not find a (good) picture of Adam. Granted, now I have, and he is not attractive. OK. Still, I wanted to ask.
======================
Christ, she has a tattoo. Fuck, Lena, Why?
Your male audience and female audience are quite different (duh).
I am betting that the majority of your female audience simply wants to find out how to get a boyfriend, and that is it (and, btw, it seems that is not much different then the majority of guys who take an interest in Game).
However, your male audience wants to solve this problem (we are , as always, a bunch of [stubborn] problem solvers…often with a huge interest in sacrificing accuracy for “being right”). So, your commenters are, in general, those willing to engage in the debate. If you are some 17 year old girl who feels lonely, there is not much point in entering the debate.
So, even the girls who comment on your blog are usually engaging in “male” thought.
This becomes most obvious when you have something very concrete, and not so abstract, to comment on, like, “Can you believe that Gary dumped Janie?”.
When you have posts like that, I often see a bunch of (female) commenters that normally do not comment.
Peppermint, you should talk more about the difference between what you call “social” and “personality”. To me, that is an interesting difference to make and sounds like it would be an important one.
I hate tatoos so much. Now, this never happened, but once or twice I wondered how it might have played out. Supposing I started dating a girl, really liked her, eventually started to believe she could be the “one” and then when nakedness ensued, I discovered she had a tat. Call me shallow, I think that would have been it.
Hmmm, that is one advantage of the sex by date 3 rule, you know very early! In my day it might have taken six weeks to see a girl completely naked.
“if some girl gos to the local bar and says, “Please, someone fuck me”, she will get fucked.
If some guy goes to the college quad (where most of the girls are dying for a relationship) holding a dozen roses and says, “Please, someone be my girlfriend”, he will not get a girlfriend.
Personally, I don’t get the point of constantly banging the “girls can get laid whenever they want” drum, but, it does not have an analogous experience on the male side.”
Good stuff from Ramble.
@Ramble
Guys at HUS have not been getting upset about it at all, to my knowledge. Obsidian mentioned that at some other ‘sphere blogs men are up in arms. *Shrugs*
@Ramble
Isn’t that her business? Let’s assume she cares more about bagels, but would take a boy if one came along who liked her and whom she found attractive. This is the same argument that we had about Emma Watson’s short hair. Men got all bent out of shape that she “felt sexy” that way. If she’s wrong, I guess she’ll find out when the men she likes don’t return the favor. It seems to me that everyone is perfectly free to present themselves to the world however they wish, and they’ll experience natural consequences.
If women want to be overweight, that’s their choice. I think I read somewhere that more men are overweight than women in this country. Granted, we shouldn’t have to listen to an overweight woman bitch that fit guys don’t like her, but I don’t see that happening, or even implied with Dunham.
Any guy who thinks Adam is out of Hannah’s league does not understand what women find attractive. End of story.
J,
“men will move on faster after a divorce and women will be more cautious. Men seem to want to drown their sorrows in the arms of a new woman, while women are more fearful of getting burned again”
I see that happen too, but I think it’s just different ways of dealing. It’s a mistake to think that because a man hops into bed with the first woman he sees after breaking up that he’s ‘over it’. Men can separate love from sex much easier than women, & see sex as simply temporary warmth & comfort, whereas women often take more time out to recover before sex again, which tends to have more strings attached for them.
In my own experiences & observation, whoever ends the relationship first is the one who moves on the fastest. I’ve been shocked when overnight I’ve been dead to someone I’d been closer than family with for 8 years, but then I’ve also sprung back & moved on very quickly when I’ve realized a relationship just wasn’t working anymore. In terms of the heart I think both sexes are pretty equal in this matter.
@Ramble
That’s an insightful analysis of the commenters, I think you’re right. Some of my favorite posts are the ones where readers have written in. And I’ve noticed that even if I give an anecdote in a comment thread, lots of people, both men and women, will jump in to discuss that. I like it myself – it can be quite interesting to tease apart all the strands in a real-life situation. Also, this is one of the times when I think the sexes learn something about one another – I know I often learn something about the male mindset during those convos.
Olivia,
“VD was being facetious and making fun of Yohami.”
I really don’t think he was, you know.
“Men in the sphere aren’t big on subtle sarcasm, are they?”
Feminists, on the other hand, seem to see it everywhere.
@Escoffier
I read that 40% of Millennials have tats. I also saw an article a couple of days ago warning that employers are balking at hiring even the strongest applicants if they have visible tats. At least Lena Dunham can cover hers if she chooses. When people gets tats on their necks, ankles, hands or wrists, they really can’t be covered up. Also, I think a woman wearing a wedding dress with visible tattoos would look terrible.
‘scoff,
“Lena is not ugly but that tat is truly hideous.”
+1
It really really is.
Susan, you should do a tat warning post. You could cover the employer reaction plus the male reaction. Now, I don’t know how universal this is but among my cohort, we all find tats on girls disgusting, a huge DLV, and a sign of sluttiness. Whether this is “fair” or not I don’t know. Maybe they aren’t all sluts. But the fact that tats are so common in porn can’t be a complete coincidence. The term “tramp stamp” likely is based on something.
That Adam tells Hannah to get rid of hers suggests that Millenial males are not uniformly pro-tat on their women.
One friend of mine, my generation, married a woman about 10 years younger who has a few small tats. He doesn’t like them but he loves her. She had a real change of heart about them after she had kids.
Some of these girls may really regret it one day. Lasering is all well and good, better than nothing, but it hurts, and has various nasty side effects.
I think what’s really going on here is that men are pissed off women overall are getting less attractive.
Absolutely. It’s amazing to see how the 40+ women with 2-5 kids often have much better bodies than the roly-poly 20-somethings. Even in Europe, if you see a very slender, attractive woman at the pool, chances are she’s got 3+ kids. For some reason, the land walrus mamas usually just have one.
This is the same argument that we had about Emma Watson’s short hair. Men got all bent out of shape that she “felt sexy” that way.
Men react so strongly because they know women are herd animals. What they’re doing is trying to stop their wives and girlfriends from going and following Emma Watson’s lead. Men don’t run out and start dressing like gay pirates because of Johnny Depp, whereas women are very susceptible to the fashion trends no matter how poorly it suits them.
OK, it’s time to put an end to this ridiculousness
Oh Sweet El-ahrairah! Don’t DO that! That’s not a man, that’s a Mole Person. And Obsidian is right. She’s a 4 at best no matter what she weighs; 3 if she’s a chunker. 5 is average and that is below average.
It also gives lots of female commenters the opportunity to say, “Well, I would never have…”
and
“My Husband and I always …”
VD was being facetious and making fun of Yohami.
I don’t think you understand how much I enjoy Yohami. I may not always agree with him, but I always think he’s awesome.
The question is, how do
those women feel about their mates? Are
they in love? ***Or are they settling, because
the guy they really want doesn’t give them
the time of day?***
This addresses whether attraction factors are
malleable (research suggests they are), as
well as any given woman’s set of attraction
triggers. ***My guess is that a minority of
women are not passionate about their
partners, while the vast majority are in love
when they marry***, regardless of who else is
out there and who else they never would
have had a chance with.
Susan,
What are your thoughts/reaction to this article?
http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/relationship-issues/married-wrong-husband
Did You Marry the Wrong Guy?
***Thirty percent of now-divorced women say they knew it was wrong from the start.***
Clark had dated a handsome businessman for four years before they got engaged, and although he didn’t make her heart race, she still loved him. “We were best friends, and I thought he’d make a great husband and father, even though I wasn’t ‘in love,’” she says. “I walked down the aisle thinking, What the hell? During my vows, I wasn’t making eye contact with my fiancé.”
30 percent of now-divorced women say they knew in their gut they were making a mistake as they walked down the aisle — and kept walking anyway. Only a handful backed out. The obvious question: If you know you’re marrying the wrong guy, why do it?
Then there’s the usual suspect: the biological clock. Clark’s was ticking and she was ready to start a family. “The number 30 reads like an expiration date for unmarried women,” says Gauvain. Not only are your baby-making years racing by, but you’re leaving behind your 20s — a decade of experimentation, one-night stands, and making mistakes, professionally and personally. In the next decade, you’re seen as an adult and can’t do those things.”
How does that last paragraph read? Does it sound like a certain meme?
On a totally different note, I did get engaged this past weekend. I’m as sure as I think is humanly possible that I’m with someone totally passionate and devoted to me. Given the situation described above, I wonder if there are some warning signs for guys that the woman they are with is in that 30% and “not really into them” but in fact just settling for what they can get.
@SW
So the disagreement basically amounts to semantics vs. substance? Yeah, that’ll bog down any discussion. No obvious solution or middle ground on that one.
Thanks.
Yes, it is. Like I said, it is a little mean. Maybe more than a little.
But it would not happen that way.
This is what would happen: Emma Watson seems to have a ton going for her (i.e. pretty, intelligent, stylish, financially successful, etc.)
For 95% of the Western Men, she is a catch. That does not mean that she will be every man’s EXACT cup ‘o tea, but any reasonable man will see that she is worth investment.
So, some fella gets a shot with her and they hit it off. He doesn’t care for her short hair, but,
1. She loves it.
2. All her GFs love it.
3. Her mother loves it.
4. Joan Rivers and Sarah Jessica Parker love it.
5. She has never asked him if he would prefer her to have longer hair even though she prob. has gotten that message from many male friends, relatives and the “male” media in general
6. He is not going to be a fuck-nut about it.
So, he simply deals with it.
Is that the end of the world? Of course not.
Just like it would not be the end of the world if she gained 2 stone. Hell, she has already heard a few times that she is a “real” woman since gaining that weight. But that doesn’t mean he likes it.
But, does he divorce her because of the weight gain? Probably not.
Does he call her fat? Well, unless he wants to be worse than Hitler in the eyes of every female within a 100 miles of her, no.
So, you get dipshits like me arguing these things on anonymous internets to attempt to have an effect on our modern Western “culture”.
==========================
Do you honestly believe that she “wants” to be overweight?
I would bet a million dollars that she would prefer to be thinner, but that she does not want to give up the bagels.
Escoffier, I am going to guess that you are either a fan of Anthony Bourdain, or at least pretty familiar with his books and show. Have you noticed his change of heart about, “I don’t give a fuck about where the food comes from as long as it tastes good” attitude since he became a father.
Shocking, isn’t it?
Holy fucking shit, girls with there enormous bug-eyed sunglasses.
This all started from the likes of Lindsay Lohan attempting to “avoid” the paparazzi. You know, “Please leave me alone (even though I get off on all of the attention).”
Now every girl looks like a large insect. It is ridiculous.
Re: short hair, during the filming of Rosemary’s Baby (shot in 1967, released in ’68), Mia Farrow was in her tumultuous whatever-it-was with Sinatra and she had a meltdown and went and got her hair cut pixie style. She showed up on the set and Polanski totally freaked out. He was pissed. Since they couldn’t delay shooting, they had to write it into the script. He went out of his way to make it clear that the husband (Cassavetes) HATED it. Farrow gives a pompous little proto “go grrrl” speech. Funny stuff. Everything old is new again.
@SW
Fair enough. I wasn’t suggesting it explains everything, especially when the breakup rate is still ~1/3 on average. Certainly girls have more superficial preferences WRT boyfriends before they mature, but the same could be said of boys in their late teens to early 20s. I think stated preferences tend to coincide with long-term outcomes after young people are out of college.
When ~95% of marriages are between members of the same racial background, and the divorce rate of marriages between college graduates is ~15%, there seems to be circumstantial evidence that choice = preference to a large degree IMO. I just have a hard swallowing the thought process of 1) women don’t prefer “what works” (i.e. LTR-oriented guys), 2) women choose to marry them coincidentally, and 3) women don’t regret it, and change their preferences accordingly.
Good quote. It reminds me of something I read somewhere regarding the economics of happiness. ~We don’t get married in order to be happy, we marry because we’ve met someone who makes us happy.
OK…I can’t resist chiming in any longer on this Adam versus Hannah…who is in whose league. The debate reveals confusion on matters that should be long settled and well understood by now.
First, I have not watched a single episode of the show, so I know nothing about Adam’s personality and presentation, and that is critically important to assessing his SMV.
We ALL should know this by now, but there is not a 100% overlap between physical attractiveness and sexual attractiveness. Susan, you yourself, on a number of occasions have used the term “sexy ugly” which demonstrates how unimportant physical looks can be for a guy if the rest of the personality and presentation creates tingles.
It is impossible to quantify exactly, but we know that pure physical appearance in isolation is far less important to overall sexual attractiveness for men compared to women. For a man judging a woman, physical appearance is the vast majority. For a woman judging a man, we know IRL that looks is a much smaller percentage although for some reason in this purely academic debate, I suspect most if not all the women are solely judging on Adam’s looks which to me are not good-looking at all. That said, I remember a thread where some women though Loki looked better than Thor so there really is no accounting for the variation in female taste. Male tastes tend to have less dispersion.
I’m with Obsidian and VD and the other guys….Hannah is probably around a 4-5 given her face and overweight level. Most peoples’ faces actually improve when they lose weight, so I suspect if she lost 20-25 pounds, she’d actually bump up to a 6, maybe a 7.
On a purely face-body comparison, there faces are probably roughly similar level…..maybe…..maybe….her face is slightly better. Again, I’ve not seen the show so I haven’t seen his body, but by the accounts, his body for a guy is vastly superior to what her body is for a woman. He is fit and she is fat. So overall, in terms of just pure physical attractiveness factoring in both face and body, he is probably just slightly higher than she is….which leaves…
his Game. A guy can up his SMV a few points through his Game and personality and style, etc. A 5 in pure looks can go to a 7 with tight Game…again going back to the “sexy ugly” concept. No such parallel exists with a woman. She is pretty much stuck at whatever level her looks are although very feminine women can probably bump a point through their personality. Whether this is the case with Adam, I don’t know because I haven’t watched the show so I don’t know but comparing just their physical looks to determine leagues makes no sense whatsoever based on everything we know and have discussed for the past 2 years about attractiveness.
For me, the debate reinforces the notion that women engage in hamsterwheeling to rationalize they are in fact in the same league with a guy they are most certainly not, and those are the situations where there is a higher chance of getting used as pump and dump material. And when we guys say “No, that girl really isn’t in that guy’s league” the first instinct is to argue it away. This is just an academic debate about fictional characters on the Internet, but the real world consequences of this again is that women like Hannah will get involved with men they think are in their league, but the guy just sees them as easy sex. Women will often ask “how do I know what league I am in” with guys”. Hello, we are telling you here. Stop arguing and listen. I don’t recall exactly. Only the guys who think you are in their league are going to be willing to commit to you.
Congratulations Mike C! How long had you two been together? I remember it was more than a year.
If a girl is in love with you, she would tell you, look at you with adoring eyes, be very enthusiastic about sex, and let you get your way unless it’s about something really important to her. She will have that “can’t get enough of you” vibe going with everything. I feel that way about just touching my husband’s arm, for example. It’s like “mmm arm…” lol. :p
So if these signs are absent, she doesn’t spontaneously touch you or say I love you, she’s kind of lukewarm and doesn’t display a lot of passion, not that interested in sex, doesn’t want to sacrifice anything for your sake, always wants her way and thinks “she’s always right,” those are some signs she isn’t truly in love.
A girl who’s in love would be fine without a wedding and would elope with you, because she wants you, not the accoutrements of the big day. She would not have cold feet or lingering doubts about the commitment. She would value your opinions and feelings about everything from in-laws to potential kids. Those are some of the more overt signs I could think of aside from the romantic stuff.
Mike C “Only the guys who think you are in their league are going to be willing to commit to you.”
Slight quibble with this. Only the guys who think she’s in their league AND are infatuated/in love with her are going to be willing to commit to her. Plenty of guys will string along a hot girl who doesn’t stir any emotion or inspire any loving feelings. It’s the girl who gets “under your skin” that gets the official title.
@MikeC
Gee, never heard that at all…where did that crazy idea begin?
Re: Short hair
I think even hairdressers are in on this “cute bob” conspiracy. I eventually taught myself how to cut my own hair (just for dealing with split ends etc.) because I got fed up of dealing with them.
They’d always be dying to do something drastic and even after I’d insist that I want my hair to stay long, they’d always chop off several inches more than they were supposed to. >:(
Adam is unattractive, but I still think that he’s (somewhat) out of Hannah’s league.
Hannah: average face (0) & below average body (-1) = -1
Adam: below average face (-1) & above average body (+1) = 0
Also, there are a lot of girls out there (NAWALT as usual) who would give him extra points for his aloofness/Asshole Game.
I understand that I am the most respected commenter here, and this will lower my value, but…
I have seen lots of episode of What Not To Wear and the first hairdresser (the guy from Australia) basically never relented on getting women to shorten their hair. No matter what they said, he would not concede, although, he would compromise.
On a slightly different note, he is the best example in popular culture of how a man should deal with an emotional girl, IMO.
@Mike C
Congratulations, that is wonderful news! Have you set a date?
I read the Marie Claire article, and also did more research on the work of Jennifer Gauvain, the social worker whose research was cited. Of the cases described, one-third were women marrying men they were not in love with, i.e. best friend but no sparks, and two-thirds were women marrying alphas despite the fact they had doubts about his suitability, e.g. bad boys friends and families warned about, men who neglected the relationship or were emotionally unavailable.
That tells me that just 10% of divorced women married men they weren’t in love with, while 20% married alphas they harbored doubts about.
@Ramble
Regardless, she’s making a choice every single day. That’s what agency is, and that’s why we hold women accountable for slutty behavior, even if they would prefer to delay sex and be in a relationship.
@VD
You have remarkable diplomacy skills. I nominate you for Secretary of State of the Manosphere.
You are absolutely right.
It is also why I have said a few times that before this blog is over, you will be doing, probably, a small amount of fat-shaming to go along with your slut-shaming.
@Ramble
Nick Arrojo was the shit. The man cut hair with a straight razor and did not stop.
@Mike C
I’m glad we lured you out of lurking
Very true. In fact, I gave an example of sexy ugly on Girls, the character Booth Jonathan:
What he’s got going for him is fame as an artist, and he’s an asshole, which also helps.
Obviously, only women can decide who is sexy ugly. I say Adam is not sexy, just ugly. As I said earlier, I’d put him at a 2. That’s based on his face, I couldn’t care less about his body. If Hannah is a 4-5, then she’s twice as attractive as Adam on a purely physical basis.
Well, men can say what they find attractive in women. Women can say what they think is attractive in men. The problem arises when either sex offers an opinion about the match between two people. All the guys (on other sphere blogs) complaining that Adam is better looking than Hannah have zero credibility. I’m telling you Adam is butt ugly.
Now I won’t presume to tell guys Hannah is not butt ugly, but several guys here have said she is not.
The fact that out of all the media outlets giving this show attention, only Game blogs have men up in arms complaining about the mismatch between Hannah and Adam is very telling. I have not seen this mentioned anywhere else, and only became aware of it yesterday when Obsidian pointed it out.
One last thing. I have found myself warming up to Adam recently, and have heard the same thing from other women, because he is going from plain ugly to “boyfriend ugly.” This is not to be confused with sexy ugly. In fact, it is the opposite. Adam’s brief reveals of vulnerability – that he could perhaps be an ugly asshole yes, but Hannah’s ugly asshole – this is what is driving his increasing appeal. As Obsidian pointed out, this is exactly the same phenomenon seen in Shades of Grey – the experience of opening up the emotionally unavailable male is a powerful female fantasy.
>> ” Nick Arrojo was the shit. The man cut hair with a straight razor and did not stop.”
Nick was the WORST! He didn’t even do “cute” bobs. He gave everybody a soccer mom haircut. *shudders*
Emily, I agree with you about the style he so often imposed. It was stylish soccer mom. But his attitude was always spot on.
@Ramble 192
I haven’t really come up with a really good definition of the differences between personality and social beyond saying that a social indicator is something an individual has or has achieved while there personality is who they are.
Social: Fit, quality and fashion of clothing; quality and style of grooming; level and quality of education; income level and prestige of career; hobbies and interests; etc.
Personality: Sensitive, funny, adventurous, resilient, tough, etc.
Self-confidence is the glue that holds this all together in a way that ensures integrity; and the lack of integrity is (really) unattractive to both sexes.
As a guy it is my belief that the core problem most men have with attracting and keeping women is that they lack confidence and they seek to gain the approval of women which results in them behaving in ways that lacks integrity.
Congratulations, MikeC!
Peppermint, OK. I actually completely misunderstood you.
When you said, “Social”, I thought you meant Social Skills.
So,
Personality
Social Skills
Looks
Whereas, your idea is closer to what I think is “Status”.
OK, I’m back in the saddle and ready to chat it up a bit more, my well-worn copy of The Game at the ready in case Ms. Anacaona is lurking somewhere in the back…
Since we’re on the topic of Male attractiveness to Women and so forth, and since we have discussed The Wire a bit here, the following is a comment by yours truly, from a very interesting discussion at Very Smart Brothas earlier this morning:
“A Man’s got to have a Code.”
- Omar, The Wire
Good morning mr champ, brothers and sisters of vsb,
Excellent topic, and serves as a most fitting continuation in our series of impromptu lectures on game & sociosexual dynamics as they apply to 21st century black america! Shall we proceed with what you have presented today, good sir?
Now…
While you make some good points about stringer bell (and thats who we’re really talking about here-not idris elba), you make a number of fundamental flaws in your argument. Lets examine a few.
The first flaw in your argument is to assume that black women, taken as a group, selects for intelligence first and foremost in their men-to which i respond, most emphatically, that is scant (at best) evidence to support any such claim. Indeed, since your post on single men a few weeks back, where i suggested you seriously consider dating jewish and/or asian women, no one to date has actually engaged me on the question of whether black women in toto, select for nerdiness in their men-and for good reason. Its because, when all the gnashing of teeth and howls of derision are said and done, sistas themselves know the real deal. Mark zuckerberg-like brainpower, is simply a nonstarter for them.
Prove. Me. Wrong. With. Data.
Indeed, i found it deeply ironic that you would even mention zuckerberg-a jew (jews have been documented as having among the highest group IQ’s in the usa) and his new wife-who is asian(!)-yet, you bristled at my suggestion to you a few weeks back. It just doesnt compute. Few if any sistas would find zuck attractive-certainly not before the billions came-and even priscillas list of demands and preconditions have become fodder for the gossip mills.
The second problem with your hypothesis is that, well, nsbe conferences and the like aint where the hot chicas be. Like willie sutton so famously said, you have to go where the money is-and yes, hot women tend to go to places like clubs and the like. This is why game in its current form is so geared to such venues-its because thats where the beautiful women tend to be. Which leads me to my next point:
Nerdy guys like hot women just as much as their more alpha brethren; and to make matters that much more interesting, their female counterparts dont get wet for them either. Checkout the hbo “it” show of the season, “Girls” to see the cold-eyed truth for yourself. It destroys, utterly, the myth that “like attracts like”.
*Lowers voice to a sinister whisper: awkward black girls like a dominant man too…heh heh…*
So, no good sir-advising the nerdy brothas among us to be king of the morlocks aint gonna get it. They need to learn the ways of the seduction arts for real-get in those venues where the verified hotties be-and take and make her your own-like machiavelli once so famously said. Trust me, the little head will thank you for it.
Now, lets revisit stringer bell for a moment; why DO so many women swoon over his very being? What was it about him that made him so very irresistably hot?
Lets count the ways:
1. Drive/ambition/singleminded focus:
Repeat after me: your mission is more important than hers. Women absolutely love a man who is wholly commited to an ideal, something bigger than himself. A man with unrelenting drive. An irrational confidence.
2. Mastery of your environment; Social Dominance: women love men who come into a room and take. It. Over. And how other men defer to such a man. Theres all kinds of evopsych-informed reasons why women gravitate towards such men, and by now you all know those sources so i wont belabor that point; but trust, a man who can command or otherwise impact the environment around him is da man.
Period.
3. Intelligence*: now, here we get to the good part. Stringer bell was w/o a doubt intelligent, BUT-and this is key due to the venues this convo takes place in-bell was able to combine book smarts w/street smarts. He was an “educated thug” which sistas find absolutely irresistable for again, reasons that are easily and clearly explained courtesy of evopsych. It explains why the reed richards brothas nary get a mention while the blue collar brotha meme has made tyler perry handsdown the most successful black person in hollywood history. Bell was a combination of whiteworld business intelligence and blackworld street intelligence-& the resulting complexity-which includes a dangerous streak-is like catnip to the sistas.
4. Ultra cool-pose/Amused Mastery: some of you may recall my mini-talk on what i refer to as The Citadel-you demeanor being like that of the monolith in 2001. Bell was the epitome of this principle (for the most part; it started crumbling toward the end). Notice how bell moved-with delberation, economy and intention. Notice his facial expressions. Notice how little he raised his voice. Notice his hand gestures. Men of power move and act like this. Women notice and offer themselves accordingly.
Please note that ive said not a blessed word about bells appearance. Why? Because most brothas wont look like bell-nor should they have to. Everything ive laidout are learnable skills any man can pull off, provided they study and practice. At 5’8″ ive commanded rooms of men twice my size, and yes, the ladies noticed. It can be done.
Im the living proof.
Aim high my brothas. Just like the air force.
Now adjourn your arses…
O.
http://verysmartbrothas.com/how-idris-elba-proves-that-cool-is-more-important-than-swag/#comment-445142
In my own experiences & observation, whoever ends the relationship first is the one who moves on the fastest. I’ve been shocked when overnight I’ve been dead to someone I’d been closer than family with for 8 years, but then I’ve also sprung back & moved on very quickly when I’ve realized a relationship just wasn’t working anymore. In terms of the heart I think both sexes are pretty equal in this matter.
I agree the thing is usually people break up emotionally first and then does it physically. I think the issue is that some people go from “want” to “can’t stand to be around” so they break up faster and others go from “want” to “I’m sad to not feel it for him/her anymore I rather wait till we have a good reason to break up like a fight or something” . Is more complicated than that. I also saw a funny timeline in three pictures were it showed after break up by gender: The woman: 1)Crying, 2) Coping, 3) Celebrating. The Man 1) Celebrating, 2) Coping, 3)Crying. I think that is a accurate of the way it progresses for genders, YMMV.
For some reason, the land walrus mamas usually just have one.
One of the many side effects of obesity is fertility issues. I had a friend that was ordered by her fertility doctor to lost 40 pounds and she got pregnant a few months after she reached the mark and it was the only thing she did.
Given the situation described above, I wonder if there are some warning signs for guys that the woman they are with is in that 30% and “not really into them” but in fact just settling for what they can get.
You are forgetting the hamster factor, all this women say that they knew all along but IME many women just rationalize and remember the story the way that makes them feel less “guilty” claiming “I was tricked and I was never in love” yeah right is easy to say that in hindsight I’m sure there are some that are for real but given how many times I heard “I knew all along it was bad for me” after being with the person from the beginning, yeah not buying is as common as they think, YMMV.
I would bet a million dollars that she would prefer to be thinner, but that she does not want to give up the bagels.
I preferred this metaphor with Twinkies, Bagels can be bran and low calories. Twinkies are just baaaaaaad.
Everything old is new again.
I think people only pay attention to what the like Michelle Williams was on record that she kept her hair short in memory of her ex Heath Ledger because she was the only man she has meet that actually liked short hair, that should tell you a lot about male’s tastes on that but very few people paid attention to this.
Slight quibble with this. Only the guys who think she’s in their league AND are infatuated/in love with her are going to be willing to commit to her. Plenty of guys will string along a hot girl who doesn’t stir any emotion or inspire any loving feelings. It’s the girl who gets “under your skin” that gets the official title.
And I will add that is all that and is also over his “sowing their oats” stage, whether real or imaginary, as mentioned a man can break his own heart for the sake of his penis.
They’d always be dying to do something drastic and even after I’d insist that I want my hair to stay long, they’d always chop off several inches more than they were supposed to. >:(
You need to visit black saloons, they rarely will recommend short hair style unless you hair is really damaged they take pride on a long mane, IME.
It is also why I have said a few times that before this blog is over, you will be doing, probably, a small amount of fat-shaming to go along with your slut-shaming.
Hopefully, fat by choice people should be on the same category as smokers given that the damage they do to their bodies is similar yet you can say “I,m not attracted to people that smoke” with no problems while saying the same about fat people and you are next to Hitler,which makes no sense.
@Mike C
Congratulations!
@Alias
I don’t think I had thank you for the congratulations on my baby boy. Thank you!
@Ms. Walsh:
“Obviously, only women can decide who is sexy ugly. I say Adam is not sexy, just ugly. As I said earlier, I’d put him at a 2. That’s based on his face, I couldn’t care less about his body. If Hannah is a 4-5, then she’s twice as attractive as Adam on a purely physical basis.”
O: Hmm. OK then, let me ask you (and the rest of the ladies here) this:
What do you make of the immense popularity of Daniel Craig?
From Wikipedia:
“The first film, Casino Royale, premièred on 14 November 2006 and grossed a total of US$594,239,066 worldwide, which makes the film the highest grossing Bond film to date.[19] After the film was released, Craig’s performance was highly acclaimed.[20] As production of Casino Royale reached its conclusion, producers Michael G. Wilson and Barbara Broccoli announced that pre-production work had already begun on the 22nd Bond film. After several months of speculation as to the release date, Wilson and Broccoli officially announced on 20 July 2006 that the follow-up film, Quantum of Solace,[21] was to be released on 7 November 2008 and that Craig plays Bond with an option for a third film.[22] On 25 October 2007, MGM CEO Harry Sloan revealed at the Forbes Meet II Conference that Craig had signed on for four more Bond films, through to Bond 25.”
Now, I don’t think it’s unfair to say that, Craig a Leading Man Looker he ain’t – yet, his Casino Royale has made MORE money than ANY Sean Connery-Bond film ever made. Perhaps there’s a reason to why Craig’s been so gosh-darn successful in the role of Bond, hmm?
Again, from Wiki:
“Craig describes his portrayal of Bond as an anti-hero: “The question I keep asking myself while playing the role is, ‘Am I the good guy or just a bad guy who works for the good side?’ Bond’s role, after all, is that of an assassin when you come down to it. I have never played a role in which someone’s dark side shouldn’t be explored. I don’t think it should be confusing by the end of the film, but during the film you should be questioning who he is.”[27] Craig also states that his favourite previous Bond actor was Sean Connery, but says, “I’d never copy somebody else. I would never do an impression of anybody else or try and improve on what they did. That would be a pointless exercise for me”.[28] His favourite Bond film is From Russia with Love.[29] On a James Bond-centric episode of The South Bank Show, Connery divulged his thoughts on Craig’s casting as Bond, whom he described as “fantastic, marvelous in the part.” When he was told that Craig had taken particular note of his performances, Connery said that he was “flattered” and that Craig really gets the “danger element” to Bond’s character.”
I have always said that Craig-Bond is essential study for any Man looking to understand just how Attraction and Seduction and what Women MOST desire in a Man actually looks, feels, sounds, smells like. Craig-Bond, is a very, very good example of just that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Craig
You were saying?
“The fact that out of all the media outlets giving this show attention, only Game blogs have men up in arms complaining about the mismatch between Hannah and Adam is very telling. I have not seen this mentioned anywhere else, and only became aware of it yesterday when Obsidian pointed it out.”
O: Weeellll…I wouldn’t necessarily say “Game Blogs”, because, with the possible exception of Roissy/Heartiste, all the other venues aren’t Game blogs per se, although to be sure Game, or some twisted aspect/form of it, is discussed there. I think it’s better to say that certain of the Alt-Right Manosphere discusses the whole Girls phenomenon, which, as you point out Ms. Walsh, has as a part of it, Game.
“Adam’s brief reveals of vulnerability – that he could perhaps be an ugly asshole yes, but Hannah’s ugly asshole – this is what is driving his increasing appeal. As Obsidian pointed out, this is exactly the same phenomenon seen in Shades of Grey – the experience of opening up the emotionally unavailable male is a powerful female fantasy.”
O: Tru dat – but I cannot take the credit. That goes to Prof. Ogas, who lays it all out in his A Billion Wicked Thoughts – and shoutouts to Prof. Buss, too, who basically backs up everything Ogas has said. A Woman who has a kind of “all access backstage emotional pass” to that Inscrutable Alpha?
Dripping Panties Priceless.
O.
Ana, I hear you, but I am sticking with Bagels, and I will tell you why.
Everyone in the audience, from the thinnest to the fattest, nods there head when some Oprah, Dr Phil, Dr Oz, whatever, says that we need to lay off the sweets. I know that many still stuff there faces with pop tarts after hearing this, but, at the very least, they will nod their heads in agreement.
However, they often look a little perturbed when reminded that they get very little nutrition from things like Bagels. Yes, yes, I know that you can get all sorts of breads out there, but, either way, they need to get their low-flavor high-carb fix.
While it is true that we are getting fat on Soda and Sweets, we are also getting fat on carbs and alcohol.
And, in my experience, the average girl has a much easier time reducing the amount of fat in her diet (and, Ana, remember, Fat is evil…EVIL!!!) than reducing the carbs in her diet.
And she is not getting fat on Butternut Squash and Plantains, she is getting fat on Pasta, Bread, Bagels, “Cereal” and, to a lesser degree, Rice.
Lastly, those people that do effectively reduce the bagels and alcohol tend to do just fine when it comes to the amount of sugar they get in their diet.
O: Daniel Craig is not attractive?
I am not amazingly great at judging male looks, but I would be shocked if there was a consensus on D Craig not being attractive.
@Ms. Anacaona:
“You need to visit black saloons, they rarely will recommend short hair style unless you hair is really damaged they take pride on a long mane, IME.”
O: This is absolutely true, based on simple sales figures. It’s been documented that Black Women spend some HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS A YEAR on hair extensions and the like; indeed, it is not at all unusual to go through the hood and see beauty shops, usually owned by Asians/Koreans, where the storefront facades are plastered with huge posters advertising “Yaki” hair extensions and the like. In fact, in more recent months, there’s been a spate of “smash and grab” style robberies of these stores, where the only items stolen were the hair extensions(!).
It just goes to show what Black Men desire most in a mate – which is long, flowing, White-like tresses. And Black Women respond to such selection pressure/demand/desire accordingly.
I just saw a Brotha walk by hand in hand with a non-Black Woman, who had the long, flowing tresses; Red Pill Truth strikes again!
O.
Well, I believe that the thinking goes that many fat people feel like it is somewhat out of there control. (BTW, I am actually fairly sympathetic to that line of thinking, which may seem completely out of line with what I have said before.)
And, a byproduct of smoker-shaming is, possibly, less smoking. Whereas a byproduct of fat-shaming is, possibly, more eating disorders.
Lastly, much of the “you can’t imply I am less attractive because of my weight” comes from girls, unsurprisingly.
And, IME, girls have big problems when you judge them less attractive for what they CAN control (i.e. weight, hair style, personal responsibility [i.i.e don't be a slut], clothing and, to a lesser degree, personality) than for what they can NOT control (i.e. Hair Color, Eye Color, Skin Color, Height, etc.)
Have you ever noticed how socially acceptable it is for a girl to say that the guy NEEDS to be X inches tall. IME, it is OK for a guy to say something similar with respect to her height, but, you just don’t hear it that often.
“I think even hairdressers are in on this “cute bob” conspiracy. ”
It’s just simple capitalism, really: short hair (on women or men) means more trips to the barber shop to maintain that look, which means more money in the pocket of the barber. (Business probably suffered in the seventies.)
Most women look at their best with just simple past the shoulders long hair, which requires a little trim once every 6 months if that. But of course there’s no money in that, & business decisions are made on what increases profits, not on what looks best / feels good/ makes the customer happy.
Unfortunately, this process remains invisible to about 95% of the population at large, who continue to buy/ wear/ think & look like whatever they’re told to.
Chuck’s got up a very good post on the newest-latest in the “Fat Girl Jihad” wars, LOL, and I’ve given my take on it here; in light of the current discussion, I think it’s most appropriate:
Gabi Gregg’s “Fatkini” & The “Fat Girl Jihad”
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/92267
I want to ask the fellas reading along: do you agree or disagree with what I’m saying here? Just for the record – Ms. Gabi can get it all day, everyday, in every way from the O-Man. But that’s just not because of size; it’s because of the things I’ve laidout in my post, which is based on the works of Prof. Buss and others. It’s universal.
Holla back
O.
Is it necessary to voice your judgment? Why not avoid the fat women you don’t like? I can’t recall anyone other than virulent feminists bitching about fat shaming. I think that if overweight women can’t attract the men they want, they’ll figure out why.
Also, for the record, I rarely see a couple where one person is obese and the other is thin. I mostly see larger women with larger men. Obesity is not misandrist.
Are you implying that I am saying certain things to overweight people in “the real world”?
I’m not.
However, like most other things, these subjects make for nice debate.
Also, I doubt you call many girls “sluts” right to there face, though it is a subject that you talk about A LOT here at HUS.
Susan, every time some woman feels the need to describe some “voluptuous” girl as a “real” woman, she is surreptitiously commenting on fat shaming.
Right, because it is not possible that she would start hamsterwheeling.
@Ms. Walsh:
“Is it necessary to voice your judgment? Why not avoid the fat women you don’t like?”
O: Ms. Walsh raises a very good question, one that Chuck and myself have also raised, albeit in slightly different ways – I mean, for me, those Women I’m not attracted to, I simply don’t discuss, if for no other reason than because I’m focusing my time and energy on those Women I DO like.
So I really don’t get all the attention and focus of the socalled “Fat Girl Jihadis” – what’s really going on there? I mean, the latest “Fatkini” girl, Gabi Gregg, is Black – and by all accounts, the guys in the Alt-Right/Manosphere have been very clear in not being into Black Women, especially if they’re looking like Gabi. Why then, do they spend such an inordinate amount of time breaking on Big Sistas? I don’t get it.
“I can’t recall anyone other than virulent feminists bitching about fat shaming. I think that if overweight women can’t attract the men they want, they’ll figure out why.”
O: Nobody’s going to accuse me of being an expert in Feminist politics and the like, but as I recall, I think the whole fat acceptance movement and the like, has been an attempt on the part of biggish Women, to say “no fair!” to the notion of not being able to get what they want; per the Feminist view of things, this is due to Patriarchal standards of what should and should not be beautiful, and that Men need to change how they view these things. *shrugs*
“Also, for the record, I rarely see a couple where one person is obese and the other is thin. I mostly see larger women with larger men. Obesity is not misandrist.”
O: With all due respect Ms. Walsh, I am sure you’ve heard of the old nursery ryhme about Jack Spratt, LOL – and I can tell you that it is indeed very possible – almost to the point of it being a norm – in the Black community to see an otherwise fit/thin guy, with a clearly biggish gal. Not at all uncommon.
O.
Susan, I am going to address this comment a second time.
I find this assertion to be odd. Revolting at men’s preference for non-fat girls is something of a standard trope in the modern west. Hell, the most well-worn and famous shit test is, “Does this make me look fat?”.
And it is entirely based on the idea that men are not allowed to say to their girlfriend/wife that she looks fat in something. I understand that this is not the same thing as fat-shaming. I get that.
But they are closely related.
Kinda off-topic, but I thought I should share how common it is that I’m appauled my girl friends’, of mine, eating habits.
I find it vert common for these girls to comment on how out of shape they are (when they really aren’t), or to insult their own clothes or hair (when they obviously put time into it), as well as eat enormous amounts of junk food while complaining.
I don’t really get it – are they looking for reassurance?
I personally have stopped having any sort of junk food or fast-food. And while in their company they’ll often offer me some, I always decline.
I don’t get why they habitually put themselves down. (like eating more than a single Mcdonalds meal and complaining about their body)
Similarly they’ll complain about not having a boyfriend while not reciprocating any interest in any guy that give them any.
I dunno where I was going with this. But I have found it very common.
I could do without Hannah and Adam hooking up – that’s nasty every time.
@Obs
Haha, true about Jack Spratt! Let me ask you something then – are there as many black obese men? Who do they prefer? Sounds to me like black women have a lot more leeway on this, more power to them.
@Ramble
If I were a man and my wife asked me if she looked fat I would tell her the truth, as tactfully as possible.
The truth is, girls ask that question of one another constantly, when shopping, when getting ready to go out, etc. It may be used as a shit test, but in that case the man fails if he says ‘no.’ Not sure what the point would be. In any case, the question is so common because very few women can achieve the ideal as promoted by the fashion industry via women’s magazines. I have never met a single woman who could state that she is 100% happy with her body. Even the anorexics think they’re fat.
I believe this issue is tied in to socioeconomic status as well. At my son’s recent college graduation, I saw very, very few overweight students of either sex. (Although I did see some overweight family members.)
Susan, I more or less agree that a man is better off avoiding overweight women than saying “you’re fat.” I mean, here is an instance where truth and politeness collide and politeness probably needs to win.
However, the delusions that some women have about this can have real world consequences. Example: when I was in grad school I had a good female friend for whom I felt no attraction, but I liked her. A good person. She had this idea once that she would set me up with some friend of hers. Really talked her up. “Looks just like Marilyn Monroe.” The date was a dinner at my friend’s apartment, four of us total. The instant I saw my “date” I knew: no way. Fat.
She was a nice lady and I hope her life turned out well. But my friend was sort of a dope, hamster-wheeling, for thinking that “fat” could be rationalized away as merely “curvy” or whatever. In the end, I only wasted one night but I also had to explain to my friend that I was not interested. I found that I couldn’t tell the entire truth, though looking back I should have. She really should know better but she honestly did not get it. And I believe that had I said “Fat!” she would have been really pissed. At me.
Oh, I know.
It is a shame that they are victimized this way.
Always something to fret over.
=================
No response to 242?
@Ms. Walsh:
“Haha, true about Jack Spratt! Let me ask you something then – are there as many black obese men? Who do they prefer? Sounds to me like black women have a lot more leeway on this, more power to them.”
O: Wait – you mean to tell me you’ve never heard of Rick Ross?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Ross
And I know you’ve heard of Biggie:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Notorious_B.I.G.
Or Barry White:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_White
Or Heavy D:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_D
All of these Men would be considered obese, and while I don’t have the numbers immediately on hand, I would say in my day to day observations on the street, Sistas tend to be more biggish than Brothas.
As for the Sistas having more leeway with regard to their weight, you’re right again – it is a documented fact that Black Men prefer more “junk in the trunk” than do White Men. Trust me when I tell you, Gabi “Fatkini” Gregg would have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER getting any dates or anything else in Black America.
And what your son observed during his graduation is definitely true – in wealthier countries like that in the West, being thinner is associated with being higher class.
O.
@Ms. Walsh:
Oh, I almost forgot:
As to who Bigger Brothas prefer? I’d say they prefer pretty much the smaller ladies. Take a look at all the ladies the guys I’ve mentioned above got with – were they anywhere near the size they were?
O.
There is a really easy way to handle this before anything gets started. Look her right in the eye with a serious face and ask, “How many of your girlfriends would like to have her body?”.
Granted, the response is usually “deer caught in headlights”, but it tends to cut to the core of the issue and makes it about other’s judgements and not yours.
Right, a fat-shaming rose by any other name smells just as sweet.
On the topic of fat women …
The growing pressure to make it acceptable for women to be over-weight and obese is similar to trying to make it acceptable for a man to be unemployed, live in their parents’ basement and play videogames all day. Even if this is only centered in one sub-culture, there is a rational fear that this kind of thinking will spread to the culture at large; and make it (nearly) impossible for people to find partners they’re actually attracted in.
And, in my experience, the average girl has a much easier time reducing the amount of fat in her diet (and, Ana, remember, Fat is evil…EVIL!!!) than reducing the carbs in her diet.
Guilty as charge. Funny enough I was in a naturist diet once that took away 80% of my carbs and I gained like 20 pounds in two months while eating carbs kept me thin for almost 30 years…So weird.
Have you ever noticed how socially acceptable it is for a girl to say that the guy NEEDS to be X inches tall. IME, it is OK for a guy to say something similar with respect to her height, but, you just don’t hear it that often.
I know is one of those weird things about what is acceptable or not. I really don’t get it. I don’t have that many physical requisites for men (a few inches taller than me and big hands pretty much) but I never got offended if a man didn’t considered me his type, in fact I clarified in my profile that I was black because sometimes you can’t tell from the pics, I’m mostly Snooki’s color (damn tanning saloons) . And I got a lot of skinny shaming when I was growing up. I guess I learned to understand early on that there are things people can’t just control about who they like???
@Escoffier:
LMAO!!! You a mess.
And you’re 100% right, too – NEVER let a Woman fix you up with a blind date. They cannot judge female attractiveness accurately, period, end of.
LOL…SMH…
O.
@Ms. Anacaona:
“Have you ever noticed how socially acceptable it is for a girl to say that the guy NEEDS to be X inches tall. IME, it is OK for a guy to say something similar with respect to her height, but, you just don’t hear it that often.
I know is one of those weird things about what is acceptable or not. I really don’t get it. I don’t have that many physical requisites for men (a few inches taller than me and big hands pretty much) but I never got offended if a man didn’t considered me his type, in fact I clarified in my profile that I was black because sometimes you can’t tell from the pics, I’m mostly Snooki’s color (damn tanning saloons) . And I got a lot of skinny shaming when I was growing up. I guess I learned to understand early on that there are things people can’t just control about who they like???”
O: There is no confusion or mystery; what you are seeing here is the simple playing out of the sexual psychologies of the Male and Female – in the former case, our evolved acceptance of hardwired sexual selection preferences, which are much more numerous and detailed in comparison to Men. On the other hand, Men have far fewer such selection criteria for Women, especially when it comes to short term mating. One of the reasons for why this would be on the Male side, is because of the evolutionarily historical fact that most Males didn’t mate, and died bachelors; how many opportunities for sexual congress could a guy honestly turn down in the ancestral environment?
So, it makes plenty of sense to look at a guy askance if he were to complain about a Woman’s height the same way many Women complain about a Man’s (or the lack thereof, really). Women can afford to be much choosier in part because they have a valuable resource that’s right between their legs.
You really should bone up on EvoPsych and Game, you know.
O.
Funny thing too, the girl who engineered the set-up was quite thin, not herion chic, but thin like a normal fit woman. So it’s not like she had her view skewed by her own circumstance. If some really fat girl had tried to set me up with a friend, the alarm bell might have rung.
@Obsidian
From my experience, when women set up a blind date they’re usually setting their female friend up with someone they believe is a good catch; and most of the time they’re not even considering the man’s desires. On a rare occassion their hot friend will be single after breaking up with a jerk and they will set her up with a nice attractive guy, but usually it is them trying to find someone for their less attractive friends because they’re tired of them complaining about being single.
Looks are very subtle. Studies have shown that two photos can look very much alike but be judged differently in attractiveness. Science also claims that the judgement of attractiveness happens on the milliseconds level, before even reaching consciousness. So gut check; Daniel Craig is attractive. Adam in Girls is not.
@Ms. Hope:
In fairness, Craig has a big advantage over Adam:
Age.
Being a younger Man is a disadvantage out there on the SMP, whereas having the right age as a Man, as Craig does, is actually a strength, as this is the age most Women find most desirable.
IJS
O.
So gut check; Daniel Craig is attractive. Adam in Girls is not.
I think for the first time I totally have the opposite reaction. If we are talking about actors I find Girls guy more someone I would date and Daniel Craig someone I will make sure I’m not even on close proximity.
@Escoffier and @PeppermintPanda
I already mentioned that I’m setting my sights on setting up two friends one is a geeky comic book nerd (you should see his house he should charge us for how many cool things he has collected through the years) and my Twilight friend. They do have similar personalities and they both haven’t dated in years and both are over 30. She is overweight and he is like 5’3″ but in shape…I’m being stupid? I mean he is socially challenged but a great guy and she is overweight and a great guy. That means I’m trying to pair up mismatching people?
@O
Nothing can stop the Army Air Corps…
Here’s an article about male attractiveness and link to immune system health:
http://www.livescience.com/18568-immune-system-male-attractiveness.html
Ana, one can’t say in advance. As a general matter, guys don’t like fat girls. But three caveats.
1) What counts as “fat” for him? This varies from male to male. By the standards of a true player, I am certain that I am a chubby chaser because I don’t need to see visible abs to find a woman attractive. In fact, I prefer a little layer of padding. Bulging bellies are out but as long as a woman is H/W proportionate, bust larger than waist, which is smaller than hips, decent chance I will find her attractive.
2) He may be ready to “settle.” That is, he may not find her the hottest thing under the sun but he may also have a clear sense of what he can get and be ready to go for it.
3) They may hit it off so well that he decides he just doesn’t care about her fat.
Anacaona, I’m not talking about who you’d date, just an objective measure of looks. I have dated guys who evoked the “wow he’s ugly” reaction from other guys and girls, but I know who’s attractive generally.
3) They may hit it off so well that he decides he just doesn’t care about her fat.
This was mostly my experience and hope I had seen people doing all sorts of exception when dealing with a man or woman that just “does it” for them. I’m objectively thinking they match it depends if they do with my luck he will go for a slutty person that is very likely to be coming and she will just enjoy the food…oh well I’m just dreaming not…much harm in that.
Random question:
How common the word Replicant is? Would the average American get it? I’m doing some rewritings on my book and I have someone making this comparison with herself and I’m between android, biological robot and replicant.
Anacaona, I’m not talking about who you’d date, just an objective measure of looks. I have dated guys who evoked the “wow he’s ugly” reaction from other guys and girls, but I know who’s attractive generally.
I used the word date as figure of speech. I always found Daniel Craig ugly in all aspects, except his body the guy keeps in shape but I always found him ugly beaten up face, not a sign of sweetness in it and when he laughs he looks like a psycho. So cross me out of his fangirl club.Ugliest James Blond ever!
@Cooper
What??? That’s surreal.
@The Horse
I think one reason I liked the last episode so much was that we didn’t have to see either one of them without a shirt on.
Christ, she has a tattoo. Fuck, Lena, Why?
I regard tattoos on women as an indication of self-hatred.
@Escoffier
You call that real world consequences? Goodness, isn’t that how about 90% of blind dates turn out? And 75% of online dates? Everyone has to expect to waste a little time when they’re dating. Why not just enjoy a nice meal with a presumably pleasant plump person?
@SW
It’s not like their bodies are unattractive, but it’s like they have a binge-eating problems. It is almost rare for them not have a bulk bag of candy with them. And god forbid we go out while drinking – they HAVE to stop “you name it” food joint.
It’s like they don’t feel good about themselves and must eat to feel better. It is so very unattractive. (behavoirably)
One of them is allergic to a lot of stuff, so she just eats fast-food all the time cause it’s usually allergy-safe.
@O
Is that controlling for inflation, increased overseas distribution, and the presence of home copies which have gone up since Connery (or in the case of the last, did not exist).
@Susan
Confession of how bitter men can get after divorce. At one point I considered trolling anorexic support groups to P&P the girls there and while doing them reminding them they should be happy someone would fuck a fat pig like them.
Never did it, but I have been that angry.
As for Lena Dunham, the second picture, where she doesn’t have a mild bitch look (ladies, smiling or at least not looking hard moves you up at least a point 99.999% of the time) I find her attractive. Certainly, looking like that I’d love to have her on my arm at some event. Lots of beautiful details for my mind to absorb.
I suspect a lot of the Game guys will say that reflects more on my SMV than hers, but take it for what it’s worth.
@PeppermintPanda
Change “play videogames” to “make music” and I’ll trade supporting the right of fat chicks to be fat for me to retire early and do just that.
Just another example of how to way too many women men only have value in what they can do for women, not as people.
Yes, a lot of PUAs see women the same way, but PUAs are reviled. The women are supported by society yelling at men to man up.
Mind you, I have to be pretty strict with my diet to stay in the shape I am. So maybe I would eat the shit they do if I felt I could afford it.
Now that I think about it, maybe they feel like they get more than enough male-attention that they don’t have to watch what they’re eating. Or how it reflect upon them. Idk.
@Escoffier:
In light of your response to Ms. Hope, what do you make of the young lady I wrote about over at my blog earlier today: the socalled “Fatkini Blogger” Ms. Gabi Gregg? I’ll go on record as saying right now, that she won’t have much trouble getting dates from Black AND White guys.
If you disagree, please explain why?
O.
PS: She is WAY more facially (and bodily) attractive than Ms. Lena Dunham.
@Ms. Anacaona,
WRT Craig-Bond:
Your personal opinion aside, the fact that “Casino Royale” was the most successful Bond film EVER, clearly says that you are in the distinct minority (which is a point I’ve always made about you, Ms. Hope, etc et al – thus, many of your “insights” would have at best, limited utility to the vast majority of Women out there reading along). After all, box office tickets, DVD sales and the like don’t lie – and I think it’s fair to say that any one of us could easily find two, three, four or more ladies who think Craig is the bomb to every one of your “ewww!’s”.
So, once again madam – you are more than entitled to your opinion…
…but you are NOT entitled to make up your own facts…
O.
Obsidian, I’m definitely in the minority, but I do know what people generally find appealing and how to appeal to the majority — context depending. I work in marketing as a designer and developer. I don’t follow celebrity culture, but I know it and analyze it from that level. For example, the appeal of Mad Men is quite apparent to me, and I don’t need to watch the show to “get it.” But this also varies culturally, as some movies and shows that have bombed in the US box offices do quite well abroad, and vice versa.
So I can see Daniel Craig’s appeal even if I don’t personally have any celebrity crushes. I don’t need to have my feelings tied up in it for analysis.
@Ramble at 242
Fair enough, you’re very good at energizing the comment threads. Though you’re as stubborn as a mule.
True. I have never said that IRL to anyone. I have, however, given some women the raised eyebrow, and they know exactly what that means.
Touche. Although in that case, she’s clearly on track for mating failure. My point is, men have every right to be selective and reject these women. I know it sucks when men feel there are no good women, but men have little incentive to settle for someone they find unattractive, much less marry them.
@Ramble
Yes it is. Children are subjected to cultural influences from a very young age. And it’s not just girls, as all the beta guys here will attest.
@Escoffier
Women, at least kind or loyal women, see the “best” in their friends. Perhaps you saw that I said that Lena Dunham has pretty eyes. She does, they’re actually phenomenal. That’s my way of focusing on what’s best about her appearance. Women do this for one another all the time. They also do it for men, btw. I’ve heard girls talk about tingling from crooked teeth, big noses, personality crushes, twinkly eyes, hairy chests.
Men need to bring the dominance, but after that, we’re extremely flexible.
I have no idea what that is.
@Anacaona
Agreed, and Sean Connery is the hottest Bond ever. He’s still hot! Timothy Dalton did it for me too, based on his performance as Heathcliffe when I was an adolescent. What I would really love to see is Idris Elba as Bond. It’s been rumoured to be possible – whew, I hope so.
@Cooper
That surprises me. Usually women are very circumspect about what they eat in front of guys, even if they pig out in private.
I have no idea what that is.
And hubby just told me that it should be a fairly recognizable word.
Is the name given to the androids and gynoids in Blade Runner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicant
@Anacaona
“How common the word Replicant is? ”
Outside of conversations about “Blade Runner”, I’ve never heard of it used in any other context. The closest variant I’ve heard is “replicators” (from StarGate parlance)…
Agreed, and Sean Connery is the hottest Bond ever.
Sorry Roger Moore girl here. I know he was campy James Bond but I find him really attractive, and sweet looking and I like his monalisa smile… It was strange seeing playing a flamboyant gay man on Boat Trip, though.
@Obs
To be fair, I think the James Bond audience is mostly male. Maybe women on dates, but it’s guys who go for action flicks.
A very silly cartoon in America called Aqua Teen Hunger Force had a whole episode based around “replicants”, if that is any measure.
I would say that anyone with the tiniest interest in SciFi would do just fine.
Congrats on the engagement, Mike C!!
I actually found Adam much more attractive after the last ep. Actually, while we’re on the subject of attraction triggers (thanks, Sassy)…the other night I was leaving the office when this guy got in the elevator. He had a very nice Roman nose. I found it extremely attractive The entire ride down I was admiring it.
/i’mcreepy
“To be fair, I think the James Bond audience is mostly male. Maybe women on dates, but it’s guys who go for action flicks.”
True. I’d be shocked if the audience for that particular Bond film (or any for that matter) wasn’t overwhelmingly male. Also, it seems that a lot of movies are setting and breaking records over the past few years.
@SayWhaat
Is it because he was boyfriendy?
I too love a strong nose on a man. When Adam was looking sideways at Hannah in the rail yard, his nose was front and center. It was very attractive! In that particular shot, he went from a 2 to a 7 in my opinion!
Female attraction is complicated, lol.
@Rone
Did you just link your blog for the first time? I spent some time there and I like it a lot!
Absolutely! I was grinning with Hannah at the end.
LOL YES.
I’m starting to think (realize?) that a lot of the guys I was enamored with in the past may have in fact been sexy-ugly.
“@Rone
Did you just link your blog for the first time? I spent some time there and I like it a lot!”
Thanks, Susan! I appreciate it.
No, it wasn’t the first time I linked to the blog but I finally loaded an Avatar so it may have caught your eye for the first time. It’s still a pretty new blog so don’t be surprised if I get in touch for some tips
I’m much worse than a mule.
And girls have every right to know how unattractive excess fat is. And how unattractive, and fucked up it is, to attempt to create a culture where they can constantly complain about how they are not “perfect”, and that they are never completely satisfied with their bodies, and all of those other things that simply feed into their self-involvement.
Susan, I actually reworded your statement to imply that women are not the victims of women’s magazines but that they are victims of women.
I was being a douche.
Women, in general, are heavily involved in both the supply and demand of those ridiculous magazines (and tv shows, and web sites, and …).
And these things are a win-win for them. They allow the producers and (some of) the readers to indulge in female fantasy as well as to indulge in self-pity and judgement.
To say that women are the victims of these magazines is a little like saying that Adrian Peterson is a victim of linebackers (Adrian Peterson is an All Pro running back with the Minnesota Vikings…someone who dreamed of playing football, and now gets to do just that).
So Daniel Craig is NOT attractive? Fuck, I thought I was better at seeing that stuff.
Well, Susan, to be honest, I found that fix-up completely ridiculous, almost insulting really. I had and still have very little experience with blind dates and I take your word for it that 90% are not going to work out. But still. My friend should have known better. It was just a preposterous spot to put me in. At least that’s what I thought.
It’s not like I’m fat or have ever been fat. I may not be all that handsome but by any objective standard, my SMV at the time was at least 3-4 points higher than my dates’.
@Ramble
He married Rachel Weisz…
IDK, maybe we’re an odd bunch here. He never did it for me. I think he’s kind of funny looking.
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